Y l.l/2:Serial 13753
United Stales Congressional..
^UfcH
Uc:-
/^UG 7 men
; ^'-^■— -^.
<-••./,,
>■--
.7'
/ f ;
//
100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987
Senate Report
No. 216
IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION
APPENDIX B, VOLUME 12
DEPOSITIONS
United States Congressional Serial Set
Serial Number 13753
United States Government Printing OfTice
Washington : 1989
r
Union Calendar No. 277
100th Congress, 1st Session
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433
Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the
Iran-Contra Affair
Appendix B: Volume 12
Depositions
Daniel K, Inouye, Chairman,
Senate Select Committee
Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman,
House Select Committee
U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives
On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate
And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran
November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House
on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed.
November 17, 1987. — Ordered to be printed.
Washington : 1988
CIOXCI J M>1CHlll UAIHl JAUfJ * UcClURC IDAHO
MMMUNM CEOMCl* OMMiN & HATCH UTAH
^AlA i SAMANIS. MANTLANO WIIIIAM S COHIN MAINE
MOWttL T tttHm ALABAMA PAUL S T^llll Jn VIUCWI*
OAviO I toWN Oklahoma
MAM A tKNKK. PAUL aAKSADONO
IlICUTIVf ASSISTANT DCuTt CHIft COUMSfL
TO Th( CWCr CDUMStl
ASSOCiATt COUNSILS
Ch KKWtS
CMAM.f S U KIM
JAMS I tATLAM
JOII ' l'S"[B
RICHANO-O PAllflV
JO-H iAMOM
TIMIT A SMIUANlCH
Timothy g WOODCOCK
Bnited ^tatts Senate
SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECKET MILITARY
ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION
WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480
March 1, 1988
Honorable John C. Stennis
President pro tempore
United States Senate
Washington, D.C.
Dear Mr. President:
We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become
available .
Sincerely,
uye
Warren B. Rudman
Vice Chairman
III
Itl N HAMIITOH tMCHAN* CnAIMMAN
PANTI ■ fJkSCtlL 'LOMD* Vice CHAHMMAN
THOMAS S *Ol(» WASHINGTON
P1TIMW MOO<NO jn NlWJinSfV
JACK tnOOKS rtXAS
lOWiS STOKES OHIO
lis *S«N WISCONSIN
lOWAKO ^ BOIAND UASSACHUSfTTS
to jinilins ctonr.iA
JOHN W MItlOS JK CHIlf COUNStl
W Nlll ICCLtSTON Of^TT CHIM COUNSIL
CAStt MIlUK STAW OmECTON
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN
UNITED STATES CAPITOL
WASHINGTON. DC 20515
(202) 225-7902
OICK CMtN(T WOMINC
WM S BROOMf'tLO MICHIGAN
MEN«» J MTOE 'Lk.lNOIS
JIM COunXR NEW JfRSE*
BILL McCOllUM ftOllOA
MICHAEl OlWiNE OHIO
THOMAS n SMfETON MiNORiTr s'AFt OIRECTOn
GEORGE VAN ClEWt ChKF MINORITY COUNStl
RICHARD LEON DEPUTY Chi£( MiNORiTT COUNSEL
March 1, 1988
The Honorable Jim Wright
Speaker of the House
U. S. Capitol
Washington, D. C. 20515
Dear Mr. Speaker:
Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair ,
House Report No. 100-433. IQOth Congress, 1st Session.
Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of
Appendix B have been declassified fq^-^felease to the public.
ly yours.
Lee H. Hamilton
Chairman
V
United States Senate
Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition
Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman
George J. Mitchell, Maine
Sam Nunn, Georgia
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama
David L. Boren, Oklahoma
James A. McClure, Idaho
Orrin G. Hatch, Utah
William S. Cohen, Maine
Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia
Arthur L. Liman
Chief Counsel
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro
Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel
To the Chief Counsel
Mary Jane Checchi
Executive Director
Lance I. Morgan
Press Officer
VI
United States House of Representatives
Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms
Transactions with Iran
Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman
Thomas S. Foley, Washington
Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey
Jack Brooks, Texas
Louis Stokes, Ohio
Les Aspin, Wisconsin
Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts
Ed Jenkins, Georgia
Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican
Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan
Henry J. Hyde, Illinois
Jim Courier, New Jersey
Bill McCollum, Florida
Michael DeWine, Ohio
John W. Nields, Jr.
Chief Counsel
W. Neil Eggleston
Deputy Chief Counsel
Kevin C. Miller
Staff Director
Thomas R. Smeeton
Minority Staff Director
George W. Van Cleve
Chief Minority Counsel
Richard J. Leon
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel
VII
United States Senate
Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition
Arthur L. Liman
Chief Counsel
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro
Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel
to the Chief Counsel
Mary Jane Checchi
Executive Director
Lance I. Morgan
Press Officer
Associate Counsels
C. H. Albright, Jr.
Daniel Finn
C. H. Holmes
James E. Kaplan
Charles M. Ken-
Joel P. Lisker
W. T. McGough, Jr.
Richard D. Parry
John D. Saxon
Terry A. Smiljanich
Timothy C. Woodcock
Committee Staff
Assistant Counsels
Legal Counsel
Intelligence/Foreign
Policy Analysts
Investigators
Press Assistant
General Accounting
Office Detailees
Security Officer
Security Assistants
Chief Clerk
Deputy Chief Clerk
Steven D. Arkin*
Isabel K. McGinty
John R. Monsky
Victoria F. Nourse
Philip Bobbitt
Rand H. Fishbein
Thomas Polgar
Lawrence R.
Embrey, Sr.
David E. Faulkner
Henry J. Flynn
Samuel Hirsch
John J. Cronin
Olga E. Johnson
John C. Martin
Melinda Suddes*
Robert Wagner
Louis H. Zanardi
Benjamin C.
Marshall
Georgiana
Badovinac
David Carty
Kim Lasater
Scott R. Thompson
Judith M. Keating*
Scott R. Ferguson
Staff Assistants
Administrative Staff
Secretaries
Receptionist
Computer Center
Detailee
John K. Appleby
Ruth Balin
Robert E. Esler
Ken Foster*
Martin H. Garvey
Rachel D. Kaganoff*
Craig L. Keller
Hawley K.
Manwarring
Stephen G. Miller
Jennie L. Pickford*
Michael A. Ray nor
Joseph D.
Smallwood*
Kristin K. Trenholm
Thomas E. Tremble
Bruce Vaughn
Laura J. Ison
Hilary Phillips
Winifred A. Williams*
Nancy S. Durflinger
Shari D. Jenifer
Kathryn A. Momot
Cindy Pearson
Debra S. Sheffield*
Ramona H. Green
Preston Sweet
VIII
Committee Members' Designated Liaison
Senator Inouye
Senator Rudman
Senator Mitchell
Senator Nunn
Senator Sarbanes
Senator Heflin
Peter Simons
William V. Cowan
Thomas C. Polgar
Richard H.
Arenberg
Eleanore Hill
Jeffrey H. Smith
Frederick Millhiser
Thomas J. Young
Senator Boren
Senator McClure
Senator Hatch
Senator Cohen
Senator Trible
Sven Holmes
Blythe Thomas
Jack Gerard
Dee V. Benson
James G. Phillips
James Dykstra
L. Britt Snider
Richard Cullen
Part Time*
Assistant Counsel
Hearings Coordinator
Staff Assistants
Interns
Peter V, Letsou
Joan M. Ansheles
Edward P.
Flaherty, Jr.
Barbara H. Hummell
David G. Wiencek
Nona Balaban
Edward E.
Eldridge, III
Elizabeth J. Glennie
Stephen A. Higginson
Laura T. Kunian
Julia F. Kogan
Catherine L. Udell
Document Analyst
Historian
Volunteers
Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt
Edward L. Keenan
Lewis Liman
Catherine Roe
Susan Walsh
*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during
the life of the Committee, provided services.
IX
United States House of Representatives
Select Committee to Investigate
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran
Majority Staff
Special Deputy
Chief Counsel
Staff Counsels
Press Liaison
Chief Clerk
Assistant Clerk
Research Director
Research Assistants
John W. Nields, Jr.
Chief Counsel
W. Neil Eggleston
Deputy Chief Counsel
Kevin C. Miller
Staff Director
Charles Tiefer
Kenneth M. Ballen
Patrick J. Carome
V. Thomas
Fryman, Jr.
Pamela J.
Naughton
Joseph P. Saba
Robert J. Havel
Ellen P. Rayner
Debra M. Cabral
Louis Fisher
Christine C.
Birmann
Julius M.
Genachowski
Ruth D. Harvey
James E. Rosenthal
Systems
Administrator
Systems
Programmer/
Analysts
Executive Assistant
Staff Assistants
Catherine L.
Zimmer
Charles G. Ratcliff
Stephen M.
Rosenthal
Elizabeth S. Wright
Bonnie J. Brown
Christina Kalbouss
Sandra L. Koehler
Jan L. Suter
Katherine E. Urban
Kristine Willie
Mary K. Yount
Minority Staff
Associate Minority'
Counsel
Assistant Minority
Counsel
Minority Research
Director
Thomas R. Smeeton
Minority Staff Director
George W. Van Cleve
Chief Minority Counsel
Richard J. Leon
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel
Robert W.
Genzman
Kenneth R. Buck
Bruce E. Fein
Minority Staff
Editor/Writer
Minority Executive
Assistant
Minority Staff
Assistant
Michael J. Malbin
Molly W. Tully
Margaret A.
Dillenburg
Committee Staff
Investigators
Director of Security
Robert A.
Bermingham
James J. Black
Thomas N.
Ciehanski
William A. Davis,
III
Clark B. Hall
Allan E. Hebron
Roger L. Kreuzer
Donald Remstein
Jack W. Taylor
Timothy E. Tray lor
Bobby E. Pope
Security Officers
Editor
Deputy Editor
Associate Editor
Production Editor
Hearing Editors
Printing Clerk
Rafael Luna, Jr.
Theresa M. Martin
Milagros Martinez
Clayton C. Miller
Angel R. Torres
Joseph Foote
Lisa L. Berger
Nina Graybill
Mary J. Scroggins
David L. White
Stephen G. Regan
G. R. Beckett
Associate Staff
Representative
Hamilton
Representative
Fascell
Representative
Foley
Representative
Rodino
Representative
Brooks
Representative
Stokes
Representative
Aspin
Michael H.
Van Dusen
Christopher Kojm
R. Spencer Oliver
Bert D. Hammond
Victor Zangla
Heather S. Foley
Werner W. Brandt
M. Elaine Mielke
James J.
Schweitzer
William M. Jones
Michael J. O'Neil
Richard M. Giza
Richard E. Clark
Warren L. Nelson
Representative
Boland
Representative
Jenkins
Representative
Broomfield
Representative
Hyde
Representative
Courter
Representative
McCollum
Representative
DeWine
General Counsel to
the Clerk
Michael W. Sheehy
Robert H. Brink
Steven K. Berry
David S. Addington
Diane S. Doman
Dennis E. Teti
Tina L. Westby
Nicholas P. Wise
Steven R. Ross
XI
Contents
Volume 12
Preface XXI
George. Clair 1
Godard, Ronald D 173
Godson, Roy S 199
Golden, William 375
Gomez, Francis D 440
Goodman, Adam 635
Gorman, Paul F 821
Graham, Daniel O 971
Gregg, Donald P 1045
Gregorie, Richard D 1147
Guillen, Adriana 1199
XIII
Depositions
Volume 1
Airline Proprietary Project Officer.
Alvarez, Francisco J.
Allen, Charles.
Arcos, Cresencio.
Volume 2
Armitage, Richard.
Artiano, Martin L.
Associate DDO (CIA).
Baker, James A., III.
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter.
Bamett, Ana.
Bartlett, Linda June.
Bastian, James H.
Brady, Nicholas F.
Brown, Arthur E., Jr.
Volume 3
Byrne, Phyllis M.
Calero, Adolfo.
Castillo, Tomas ("W").
Cave, George W.
C/CATF.
Volume 4
Channell, Carl R.
Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer).
Chatham, Benjamin P.
CIA Air Branch Chief.
CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief.
CIA Air Branch Subordinate.
CIA Chief.
CIA Communicator.
CIA Identity "A".
XV
Volume 5
CIA Officer.
Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr.
Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink).
Clarke, George.
Clarridge, Dewey R.
Cline, Ray S.
C/NE.
Cohen, Harold G.
Volume 6
Collier, George E.
Cole, Gary.
Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA.
Conrad, Daniel L.
Volume 7
Cooper, Charles J.
Coors, Joseph.
Corbin, Joan.
Corr, Edwin G.
Coward, John C.
Coy, Craig P.
Crawford, Iain T.R.
Crawford, Susan.
Crowe, Adm. William J.
Currier, Kevin W.
DCM, Country 15.
DEA Agent 1.
DEA Agent 2.
DEA Agent 3.
deGraffenreid, Kenneth,
de la Torre, Hugo.
Deputy Chief "DC".
Duemling, Robert W.
DIA Major.
Dietel, J. Edwin.
Dowling, Father Thomas.
Dutton, Robert C.
Earl, Robert.
Volume 8
Volume 9
XVI
Volume 10
Farber, Jacob.
Feldman, Jeffrey.
Fischer, David C.
Floor, Emanuel A.
Former CIA Officer.
Fraser, Donald.
Fraser, Edie.
Fuller, Craig L.
Volume 11
Furmark, Roy.
Gadd, Richard.
Gaffney, Henry.
Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A.
Galvin, Gen. John R.
Gantt, Florence.
Garwood, Ellen Clayton.
Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C.
Gates, Robert M.
Glanz, Anne.
Rudd).
Volume 12
George, Clair.
Godard, Ronald D.
Godson, Roy S.
Golden, William.
Gomez, Francis D.
Goodman, Adam.
Gorman, Paul F.
Graham, Daniel O.
Gregg, Donald P.
Gregorie, Richard D.
Guillen, Adriana.
Hakim, Albert.
Hall, Wilma.
Hasenfus, Eugene.
Hirtle, Jonathan J.
Hooper, Bruce.
Volume 13
Volume 14
XVII
Hunt, Nelson Bunker.
Ikle, Fred C.
Jensen, D. Lowell.
Juchniewicz, Edward
Kagan, Robert W.
Keel, Alton G.
Kellner, Leon B.
Kelly, John H.
Kiszynski, George.
Koch, Noel C.
Kuykendall, Dan H.
Langton, William G.
Lawn. John C.
Leachman, Chris J., Jr.
Ledeen, Michael A.
Leiwant, David O.
Lilac, Robert H.
Lincoln, Col. James B.
Littledale, Krishna S.
McDonald, John William.
McFarlane, Robert C.
McKay, Lt. Col. John C.
McLaughlin, Jane E.
McMahon, John N.
McMahon, Stephen.
McNeil, Frank.
Makowka, Bernard.
Marostica, Don.
Marsh, John.
Mason, Robert H.
Meese, Edwin IIL
Melton, Richard H.
Merchant, Brian T.
Meo, Philip H.
Miller, Arthur J.
Miller, Henry S.
Miller, Johnathan.
Volume 15
Volume 16
Volume 17
Volume 18
XVIII
Volume 19
Miller, Richard R.
Motley, Langhorne A.
Mulligan, David R
Nagy, Alex G.
Napier, Shirley A.
Newington, Barbara.
North, Oliver L.
O'Boyle, William B.
Osborne, Duncan.
Owen, Robert W.
Pena, Richard.
Pickering, Thomas.
Poindexter, John M.
Posey, Thomas V.
Powell, Gen. Colin L.
Price, Charles H., II.
Proprietary Manager.
Proprietary Pilot.
Radzimski, James R.
Ramsey, John W.
Ransom, David M.
Volume 20
Volume 21
Volume 22
Raymond, Walter, Jr.
Regan, Donald T.
Reich, Otto J.
Revell, Oliver B.
Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman).
Reynolds, William B.
Volume 23
Richard, Mark M.
Richardson, John, Jr.
Robelo, Alfonso.
Robinette, Glenn A.
Rodriguez, Felix I.
Roseman, David.
XIX
Rosenblatt, William.
Royer, Larry.
Rudd, Glenn A.
Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney).
Rugg, John J.
Russo, Vincent M.
Sanchez, Nestor.
Scharf, Lawrence.
Schweitzer, Robert I
Sciaroni, Bretton G.
Secord, Richard V.
Shackley, Theodore G.
Sigur, Gaston J.
Simpson, Major C.
Sinclair, Thomas C.
Singlaub, John K.
Slease, Clyde H., IIL
Smith, Clifton.
Sofaer, Abraham D.
Steele, Col. James J.
Taft, William H., IV.
Tashiro, Jack T.
Teicher, Howard.
Thompson, Paul.
Tillman, Jacqueline.
Volume 24
Volume 25
Volume 26
Volume 27
Thurman, Gen. Maxwell.
Trott, Stephen S.
Tull, James L.
Vessey, John.
Walker, William G.
Watson, Samuel J., IIL
Weinberger, Caspar.
Weld, William.
Wickham, John.
Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark).
XX
Preface
The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation.
The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings.
Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents.
Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc-
tions to the Select Committees.
At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals
retained their own counsel.
The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that,
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order.
An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House,
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons.
In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information
not considered germane to the investigation.
In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow-
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence — were developed by Select
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original
XXI
exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in-
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate.
The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages,
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order.
XXII
Publications of the Senate and House
Select Committees
Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair,
1 volume, 1987.
Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988.
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988.
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988.
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988.
All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S.
Government Printing Office.
XXIII
Stenographic Transcript of
HEARINGS
Before the
lO
SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION
UNITED STATES SENATE
DEPOSITION OF CLAIR GEORGE
Friday, April 2i*, 1987
Partially Declassified/Released on
l^-li-rj
under provisions of E.O. 12355
by N. Menan. National Security Council
UNCLASSIFIED WJ^
Washington. D.C.
:EPSCi J PE-OP^'NG
(202) 628-9300
20 F STREET, N.W.
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20001
COB. NO-
a OF._i-- -COPIE
82-710 0-88-2
UN€tftSStF»ED
1 DEPOSITION OF CLAIR GEORGE
2 Friday, April 24, 1987
3 United States Senate
4 Select Committee on Secret
5 Military Assistance to Iran
6 and the Nicaraguan Opposition
7 Deposition of CLAIR GEORGE, called as a
8 witness by counsel for the Select Committee, at the
9 offices of the Select Committee, Room SH-901, Hart Senate
10 Office Building, Washington, D. C. , commencing at 1:15
11 p.m. , the witness having been duly sworn by ANNE P.
12 HOROWITZ, a Notary Public in and for the District of
13 Columbia, and the testimony being taken down by Stenomask
14 by ANNE P. HOROWITZ and transcribed under her direction.
15
^NCt.%SSWtiF
tiH€k^Sl£^D
1 APPEARANCES :
2 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret
3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan
4 Opposition:
5 PAUL BARBADORO, ESQ.
6 Deputy Chief Counsel
7 TOM POLGAR
8 Investigator
9 On behalf of the House Select Committee to
10 Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran:
11 MICHAEL O'NEILL, ESQ.
12 Associate Counsel
13 NICHOLAS WEISS, ESQ.
14 Associate Staff Counsel
15 On behalf of the witness:
16 DAVID PEARLINE, ESQ.
17 PAGE MOFFETT, ESQ.
I
UNCLA^I^ISO
UHOkA^SlllED
1
CONTENTS
2
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF
3
WITNESS
SENATE HOUSE
4
Clair
George
5
By Mr.
Barbadoro 4
6
By Mr.
O'Neill 120
7
By Mr.
Barbadoro 122
8
By Mr.
Weiss 128
9
By Mr.
O'Neill 131
10
By Mr.
Barbadoro 144
11
EXHIBITS
12
GEORGE EXHIBIT NXJMBER FOR IDENTIFICATION
13
1
39
14
2
39
15
3
55
16
4
78
17
5
84
18
6
92
19
7
96
20
UNaiASSJFlED
UNfilASSlEUED
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 WHEREUPON,
3 CLAIR GEORGE,
4 called as a witness in this proceeding by counsel for the
5 Senate Select Committee, having been duly sworn by the
6 Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows:
7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE
8 SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE
9 BY MR. BARBADORO:
10 Q Mr. George, when did you first become the DDO?
11 A On the first of July, 1984, or thereabouts,
12 early July.
13 Q Can you describe for a novice what your job
14 involves?
15 A I am the Deputy Director of the Central
16 Intelligence Agency for Operations, which I believe would
17 best be described in the jargon of the United States as
18 the chief of the American overseas spy service.
19 Q How much of your time did you spend on hostage
20 matters in 1985 and 1986?
21 A Probably a great deal.
22 Not only was it an issue of great importance
23 to our Directorate and our agency, particularly our
24 Directorate, because of Bill Buckley^
25
i^^m
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I don't want to say what somebody at the Tower
Commission said, but I suppose, like my friend^^^Hl had
been involved in terrorist activities and hostage affairs
more than most people.
I would not want to say that I spent an hour a
day, but I worried a lot about it.
Q When was Mr. Buckley taken hostage?
A He was taken hostage, I don't know, in January
or February, 1984, and I came to the conclusion, I felt
very strongly and I still believe he probably died in the
summer of '85. But I think the intelligence was adequate
to believe that he died in the summer of '85.
Q When did you first receive intelligence
information that led you to believe that Mr. Buckley may
have been killed?
A It was that summer.
I think when we, when Benjamin, when Reverend
Weir was released, it sort of put the icing on the cake.
There had been a lot of talk of his death, reports here,
there.
Now how many people in town knew that, I don't
UN(^*SStf?ED
8
UNOcASSlESED
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
know. But I got the point that I went to either Casey or
to McFarlane, or somebody. I said look, we've got to
quit screwing around with whether he's dead or alive.
We've got to find out.
To me, that was absolute confirmation.
Q Did you try to keep up with what the agency
was doing regarding the hostages once Buckley had been
taken hostage?
A Yes.
I felt, as I've said to other groups, I think
this Directorate, because of its unique overseas
responsibilities, plays the lead role, the lead role in
doing what it can to help, to assist the American
hostages, be they our Chief of Station or some innocent
tourist.
OCtSSirtED
UHSyiSOTED
background, yes, I was
UNetASStFIED
10
UNCLASSIFIED
'-- TOr--fl C CnCT/C0DCV<0RD
8
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
So I would think I probably was quite aware of
most of it.
Q Who in the DO had day to day responsibility
for hostage matters?
Who was in charge, the highest ranking DO
official that had day to day responsibility for hostage
matters?
A W ell, I would say that - we're talking
strictl^^^^^^^l r'aul .
Q Uh-huh.
A I would say the Chief of the Near East
Division — other than myself.
Q And in 1984, who would that have been?
A Well, let's see. ^^^^^^^^|l think came back
fromP
Q And who replaced]
A
Q When was that?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H would
have been in March of 1985. Excuse me, 1986, I'm sorry.
Q What is the Hostage Location Task Force?
A The Hostage Locating Task Force, with which I
was involved with Ollie North and John Poindexter, was an
outgrowth -- and you guys are going to have to tell me
W*Ct1tSSlnED
11
UNCLASSIFIED
1 the time, because I really don't know — two years ago,
2 three years ago — was a decision that thmae was no
3 single government entity that was responsible for
4 collecting and collating all the information on the
5 Beirut hostages and trying to make sense out of it.
6 DEA would hear from an informant involved in
7 the drug traffic.
8 You have to remember that by 1984 — well, I
9 don't know about 1984, but certainly by 1985, the world
10 knew the hostages were a major issue to this country, and
11 everybody was peddling hostage information. Everybody
12 had a hostage angle.
13 And our friendly liaison services had hostage
14 angles, and our enemies had hostage angles.
15 And so, we decided — and I remember talking
16 to Ollie and to John and, I'm sure, to Bill Casey, that
17 we should establish a central, multi-agency group,
18 meeting somewhere — again, wherever we can find office
19 space, like today — to put it all together.
20 And we named a guy called^^^^^^^^^^who at
21 that time was probably
22 which has different names, but for our purposes, Paul, to
23 be the chief of the Hostage Locating Task Force.
24 And it would meet weekly, would sift through
25 what was available, and it had a slight operational role,
yfiCtftSSffSEO
12
imetftssiHED
10
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
which was that if there weret^ if Immigration and
Naturalization, DEA, Customs, had some kind of lead, it
could advise them operationally what w* would possibly
want them to do.
Q How does th^b^stagH " li^^ iia£ Ta«Tc "^rce
interact with the Chief of the Near East Division
regarding the h^^a^esi
# AH* We're talk^p bureaucracy. You had the same
bureaucratic conflict with the Hostage Location Task
Force a nd NE that you had then begin ning in March, 1986,
between ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^HaT^^Pjcr^
These are very complicated problems in terms
of boring subject, government bureaucracy, who is in
charge of what.
The Hostage LocatJ^^Task Force was --
[Pause]
A The establishment of the Hostage Locatia^Task
Force in 1984 or 1985, I forget — 1984, I suspect —
.when it was established, Paul, it was sort of like,
again, the problems with^^^Band NE. I had to define the
territory, and I defined the territory for the Hostage
LocatiSr Task Force as that information and material that
related specifically to the hostages.
That cut out a big hunk of NE's turf. But if
you are going to manage an organization as big as ours,
(niccftsstf^Eo
13
UN(^^SStRED
11
1 you're going to have to sort of get them to work together
2 and get them to agree where their turf is. And that was
3 a problem then, as it was later a problem with the
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand -- who was
5 charge of what, when does an agent suddenly stop being a
6 responsibility of an operating division and become the
7 responsibility of the staff.
8 Q Was Charlie Allen ever a member of the Hostage
9 Locating Task Force?
10 A Up until establishment °^^^^^^|HH
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 1 remember
12 I couldn't swear to that. I mean, I didn't
13 follow the membership weekly.
14 Q Was^^^^^^the only CIA member?
15 A No, no.
16 [Pause]
17 [Discussion off the record]
18 A We're talking about the Hostage Locating Task
19 Force that was established in 1984, to centralize the
20 government's problems with the Beirut hostages.
21 I can't — no, there had to be somebody else.
22 But I'm sorry, Paul, I don't remember who it was.
23 Q And if there was an operation aimed at
24 recovering the hostages, who would coordinate the
25 operation? The NE Division or the Hostage Locating Task
UN^tS^ED
14
JIN€LASSIFf£D
_ _ _ _ 12
1 Force?
2 A Oh, I would not let an operation just
3 "happen." Ideal management would still be my principle.
4 We would not allow an "operation" to take place. You're
5 really going to go out and "operate" without both of
6 those entities knowing about it.
7 First of all, NE had the area expertise. Those
8 are where the stations are. Those are where the bosses
9 are.
If you are going^^^^^^^^^^^^^l you
11 going to have^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l If you're working}
^^^^^^H^^B you ' ve
13 So the task force, generally, at that point
14 was a staff.
15 Q I want to switch subjects, but, again, talk in
16 general terms about something.
17 How much time did you spend in 1984, 1985,
18 1986, on matters relating to the Contras?
19 A As Michael O'Neill will swear, starting in
20 1982, there has probably been no other subject in which
21 more time and energy was spent, both in this job and in
22 the job I had before this one and in the job I had before
23 that one, emotion, concern, controversy, and anything
24 under the sun, in the last five years at least, than the
25 Contras.
UttCtASStFIED
15
UNCmSfl^tED
13
1 I would be less than honest to say that I must
2 have spent a hell of a lot of time on the Contras.
3 Q How frequently would you meet with the Chief
4 of the LA Division to discuss Contra matters?
5 A I saw all division chiefs at least once a week
6 for an hour, a half hour or an hour — Dewey Clarridge,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ was
8 not the DDO under all of that time. But you'd meet
9 regularly.
10 The Contra issue, as a management problem, is
11 so complicated, not only in the field — who are these
12 people and what are they doing -- but back in Washington
13 — who are all of us and what are we all doing, that I
14 would never think that any guy in my job!
15 before me and John McMahon as my boss, Bob Gates as my
16 boss, would really ever manage all the details. But you
17 would do your best almost — certainly weekly, if not
18 more often, to try to get the big picture of it.
19 Q How frequently would you meet with the head of
20 the Central American Task Force?
21 A Well, the first head of the Central America —
22 when I was the ADDO, which is deputy to this job, and,
23 again, I am not in control of the situation as the ADDO,
24 so I am showing up to meetings when the DDO calls
25 meetings, unless he is out of town. I remember meeting
UlfCLASSintD
16
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
HWClftSStf^P
14
quite frequently withi
the guy who is now
head of LA. He was head of that task force. And I went
away. I went off to the Congressional account.
And I didn't know^^^Wthat well. But I had
met with ^^^^^^^^1 a lot. I was partly instrumental in
putting him where he is.
It was a big decision for us, John McMahon and
I, particularly in the late summer - early fall, of 1984
— who's going to run this thing and who's the guy we're
going to pick?
I have done my best to be as helpful and as
cooperative with^^^^Hand the burden he has carried as I
could be.
Q When did Dewey Clarridge leave the LA
Division?
A Well, let me throw a day out. He left in
September, 1984. He left soon after I took this job. I
know that for a fact.
Q And isn't it true thal;^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hleft
the CIA around the same time?
A They left together.
Q Also around that time,|
changed, did it not?
A ^^^^^^^^^^Breplaced — I'm sorry, whomever
— that summer.
UNCti^SiflfD
17
UN£ilimP
15
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
iwent to^^^^^^Hthe summer I took this
job, an assignment that I had not been involved in. But
I knew o^^^K and ^^Hwent to|
So that all took place that suminer.
Also^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H was
changed around that time.
A
I think^^^^Hwent down in 1985 to replace —
tell me. I mean, I'm sorry.
MR. POLGAR: 1984 -- June, 1984, more or less.
THE He took^^^^^^^^Hjob,
that right, Tom?
MR. POLGAR: Yes.
BY MR. BARBADORO (RESUMING) :
So, between June and September, of 1984 —
The whole team changed.
The whole team changed?
That's right.
Is that a usual thing in CIA, to change a
whole team at one time?
A It is very usual. And when you are running a
service that is based on overseas service, a very
complicated local service, responsibilities, you often
get into a fix — we face it all the time — with the
ambassador screaming at us, that our chief, our deputy,
Q
A
Q
A
Q
oi^AssrrsED
18
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UttOtASSIflED
16
and the number three guy will all leave.
This, however, was a total coincidence.
John McMahon and I decided that Dewey had so
many problems on the Hill, as Michael will remember, that
it was critical to get him out of that job.
We went — John and I talked about it a great
deal that summer, and John and I went to Casey, and Casey
agreed, and we brought inl
We moved Dewey to Europe. We moved^^^^^^^^^^^^^B and
— la-la-la.
fsort of left simultaneously, and I don't
quite know how.
Q He was removed before his tour was completed?
A Whc
Q
A Okay, you've got me now.
Q Do you know why he was removed?
A No, I don't. I'm sorry, I don't.
I don't know that.
I know he was gone. I know he was looking for
a job, and I know that without jny intervent ion, which
would have helped, he ended
You, then, were not involved in making a
decision to replacel
UlfCHASStrSED
19
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A
Q
I could have been. I can't recall.
You can't recall that?
How about the decision to bring inl
17
He had had no previous expe rience in Lat in
America. Why was he chosen to replacel
A Because in my mind then as now, he was one of
the most single, competent case office managers and
directors, and the ability to manage the most complex,
difficult, controversial program in the directorate was
more important than the background and knowledge.
Now you — we'll you'll ask me. Go ahead.
Q Around the same time that this team was
changed, there was also a change in the way the CIA could
function in Central America. That is, the money had run
out and the CIA was going to be out of the business
because of Boland.
A Boland amendment number two, which I am very
familiar with, because 1 did the Congress, the
Congressional relationships.
Q Did the change of team have anything to do
with the fact that the CIA's role in Central America was
changing as a result of Boland II?
A I think it would be better to explain it that
we perceived that Boland II had taken place partly
UWCffiSintD
20
U»[C£ffS$m£D
18
1 because the team that he run it had not handled it well
2 on their own.
3 Yes, they are related, although they are not
4 sort of cause and effect: we hear Boland II goes into
5 effect and we, therefore, change.
6 But the relations with Congress, which were
7 terribly difficult and painful for both sides, caused us
8 to sort of say we're going to have some new faces in
9 here. That may have been part of it with^^^^^^| But I
10 can't remember
11 Q When did you first become aware that the
12 Contras were attempting to obtain aid from third
13 countries?
14 A Well, as it became evident to all of us who
15 followed it — and I followed it very closely at that
16 point with the Congressional side — that the Congress
17 was going to vote to stop CIA lethal support, there was
18 general talk everywhere, by everybody, in the course of
19 events as to what will happen to them and will they be
20 able to find support privately.
21 So, this general idea began to grow at the
22 time, as Mike remembers. The debate grew hotter and more
23 heated and more heated as to is the Congress going to cut
24 off the funds and when it became evident to the White
25 House — and I was there — to the White House
(^ettssmED
21
UMCLASSKF^D
19
1 Legislative Counsel, who was counting votes one by one —
2 I mean, this was a vote, boy, where every guy stood up
3 and said exactly where he is. As it looked like they
4 weren't going to win it, the whole general discussion —
5 of which I was never part of a specific discussion — was
6 can they g o some wher^els^t^^^idsupport — rich
Am e r i c a n s , ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^^^^^^l t h e
8 Conservative Party, you name it.
9 Q Was there discussion in the agency about how
10 they were going to support themselves?
11 A Oh, I think anybody associated with the
12 Contras was — I don't remember sitting down with Dewey
and^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H or even
14 Bill Casey and saying how are we going to get, how are we
15 or how are they, but it was, geez, this is an active
16 military force. It's in the field, operating.
17 The legislative advisors to the President are
18 arguing if he is serious about supporting them, that they
19 will not stop fighting another year for money. This
2 wasn't one of these votes where, I'm very sorry, but the
21 abortion vote is over and we can't bring it up again. It
22 was we will come back and vote again.
23 It was always as it is today, that the
24 President will never stop, rightly or wrongly, pushing
25 for support, military support, through us to the Contras.
UNCtlKSSmiD
22
UNmSSfFfED
20
1 So, Boland I, when the argument was to overthrow
2 the Government of Nicaragua is illegal, and Boland II —
3 I mean, these are not the technical names. I am using
4 this as the jargon titles — which was no military
5 support, and Boland III, which was the most complex of
6 all, which was you can do this and not that, and that but
7 not this, and you can supply this but not that.
8 All through there, the administration position
9 was we're going to get the agency back into this thing.
10 It's sort of saying well, how will they continue then if
11 there is no agency?
12 Well, they'll go out and get some money.
13 Q Do you recall anybody in the OGC being asked
14 to do research on whether anyone in the CIA could solicit
15 aid for the Contras from third countries?
16 A I don't.
17 Q Was there any specific discussion in 1984 in
18 the agency concerning soliciting third countries for aid?
19 A It's critical to remember that with each of
20 these laws, the discussion was intense and detailed as to
21 what is the CIA allowed to do.
22 It was certainly detailed with me because I am
23 the guy, after I became DDO, and even in the other jobs,
24 who has to worry about the legalities of our positions.
25 What the hell does the law mean if it says we're not
imCtffSStFfED
23
UNaiASSIIiED
21
1 allowed to overthrow the Government of Nicaragua, and
2 yet, we're down there making war?
3 How much war do you make before you are not
4 overthrowing the government? At the point when there is
5 no more aid, but the White House says we're going to go
6 back and fight for it again, I'm sure there is a
7 discussion -- well, if we can't give aid and we have good
could we go to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B and
9 ask for money.
10 Those debates went on continuously, and were
11 reviewed, and I'm sure probably reviewed by OGC, although
12 I don't remember specifically.
13 Q Do you recall specific discussions about
14 people in the CIA going to third countries to get aid for
15 the Contras in 1984?
16 A No.
17 I remember discussions of were they allowed.
18 And I think that the decision was made that we were not
19 allowed.
20 Q Do you remember who told you that or who made
21 that decision?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you know whether anybody in the CIA did
24 contact any foreign governments to determine whether
25 these foreign governments would be interested in giving
yUCtftSStfO
24
UMClASSJfJ£D
22
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
aid to the Contras in 1984?
A No. Never.
Q In October of 1984, you became aware that
Adolf o Calero had gone^^^^^^^^Ko solicit aid, didn't
you?
A I didn't. I mean, I may have known, but I
don't remember.
It may have been public knowledge, but I don't
remember it.
Q Well, unfortunately, I can't show it to you .
because the NSC wouldn't let me take it here. But I will
represent to you that the NSC has a TD that you signed on
October 12 and two more on October 15, that describe a
meeting or meetings that Adol fo Caler o had with
^^^^^^^^:o discuss
the possibility of receiving aid.
Does that ring a bell to you?
A Let me make one thing perfectly clear here.
I have to tell you what I told the Tower
Commission and the SSCI guys.
It's like every State Department telegram says
"Shultz." Please, just because my name's on it --
Q I understand. I understand that.
A If I signed a TD that said Calero went to look
for aid^^^^^^^H I 'm sure I signed it. But, so help me
(mct?rssrn£D
25
UN6tft$S1f1£D
23
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
god, I don't remember it.
Q So you have no memory --
A I do not remember that incident at all —
period.
MR. O'NEILL: Excuse me. Was this a TD or a
memorandum ot dissemination?
MR. BARBADORO: It's a TD.
MR. POLGAR: But it must be a memorandum of
dissemination.
THE WITNESS: TD ' s are the electric things, .
Paul, that don't have anybody's name on them. But, I
mean, the Tower Commission suddenly whipped something in
front of me and said did you sign this, and I'm sorry,
I'm not showing off, but I said oh, god, I don't know.
BY MR. BARBADORO [RESUMING]:
Q Let me ask you about something related to
that.
Do you have any recollection of a solicitation that
General Singlaub made in January of 1985 to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bf o r
Contras?
A There has rec_en tly been a ser ies of cabl es
f r om ^^^^^^I^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B^ ^
which he categorically stated that the accusations made
by Christ knows whom, that he had helped Singlaub solicit
UN€Lft^F!iD
26
UNCLASS(F>^D
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
24
funds from^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^His untrue. And it's
possible that he said in that that he, that everybody
knew Singlaub was there and what Singlaub was doing
there. And he reported that at the time, and asked for
our advice.
Please allow me to check the record, but I am
close to this.
He asked for our advice.
we went back with a cracker
saying you stay away from this.
You see, the day that Boland II passed, which
was effective, I think, Michael, the first of October,
1984 —
MR. O'NEILL: Right.
THE WITNESS: We sent out, I mean, I had been
in Congressional Relations.
is concerned as hell. We sent out a message that s«
boy, if you see anybody coming around, looking for funds
for the Contras, head for the hills.
BY MR. BARBADORO: [RESUMING]
Q So you would have told anybody in the CIA that
was contacted about soliciting funding for the Contras,
your message was you can't do it, don't participate in
lis new. John McMahon
a.\ck
imCttSStffi£D
27
UWet^SfFJED
25
1 it?
2 A That's my message. That's my message, as far
3 as I remember it.
4 Q Do you recall communicating to Colonel North
5 in liate January - early February of 1985, the fact that
gone to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f to
7 solicit assistance for the Contras?
8 A Me?
9 Q Yes.
10 A To Ollie? I could have. I don't remember.
11 I mean, I talked to Ollie all the time. So I
12 may have told him that.
13 I can't say I did. I can't say I didn't.
14 Q When did you meet Oliver North?
15 A Probably 1983, at the Congressional job. He
16 was attending meetings. It was sort of hi, there, how
17 are you.
18 Q And when did you start having frequent contact
19 with him?
20 A Probably soon after I became the DDO, because
21 it soon became evident that Oliver North had been charged
22 by the administration to seek private funding for the
23 Contras. And out of that grew the most complex foreign
24 policy I have ever beheld, and that wasn't a two-track
25 policy. It was a three-track policy.
UNCtDSSfFFED
28
mtftSSfFtED
26
1 You've got the State Department conducting
2 normal diplomatic relations — abnormal-normal diplomatic
3 relations — with Shultz flying to Managua. You have the
4 series of Motley, and before him, Enders, and assistant
5 secretaries making secret contacts. You have the whole
6 diplomatic world.
7 Then you had had off and on the Central
8 Intelligence Agency involved with the military side, now
9 cut out of the military side
10
11
12
13 Now you have the United States Government
14 supporting private funding of the Contras.
15 So, North becomes a very critical player here,
16 only because North is tripping all over us, or we over
17 him, in Central America, in addition to which if you
18 wanted to deal with hostages, you dealt with North, if
19 you want to deal with terrorism, you dealt with North, if
20 you want to deal with something else — et cetera.
21 So, I had relations, not personal at all, but
22 on the phone — what's this, what's that. It started
23 quite intensely.
24 Q How frequently would you talk to him on the
25 phone once you became DDO?
imOT^SIFlfEO
29
liNCLA^SIflED
27
1 A Oh, I would say when he was in town or I was
2 in town, we probably talked on the phone once a week,
3 twice a week.
4 Q How frequently did you meet with him?
5 A Meetings? I never met alone with him. If
6 there would be a meeting -- I mean, god, he was at every
7 meeting ever held in the Situation Room. What the
8 subject was, there was Oliver North.
9 I met with him on many -- not many, but
10 several -- occasions at the agency on both this and the
11 Iranian issue.
12 Q And you don't recall ever meeting with him
13 alone?
14 A Oh, I'm sure I met with him alone. But, I
15 mean, most of the meetings that I had with him were in
16 groups. I'm sure I'd sat alone with Ollie.
17 I've been in Ollie's office in the Old
18 Executive Office Building with him alone. But I don't
19 remember a pattern of meetings alone.
20 Q You understood Ollie was involved in private
21 fund raising for the Contras?
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q What did you understand his involvement to be?
24 A That he was raising money from private sources
25 to give to the Contras.
gJOP SECRET/CODEWORD
UNCUSSIFJED
30
UNCIsl^Sll^O
28
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Did you understand that he was soliciting
money from third countries for the Contras?
A Not really — well — most of the time,
throughout that affair, Paul, I felt, till the end, that,
whereas there was solicitation — you'd hear about
Singlaub, we'd be travelling or something. But I felt
most of the money was coming from, I thought right till,
I still do, except I guess it isn't true, was coming from
private Americans, wealthy private Americans.
Q But did you know that Ollie was specifically
contacting third governments or having other people
contact third governments?
A Oh, god, he was in touch with very third
government. I mean, Ollie would fly to Central America
and he would go down with Bud, or he would go with
somebody and meet the]
I don't remember. Ollie travelled. Ollie
would be in Europe, Ollie would be here.
Q But do you remember having any, contacting any
A I do not specifically remember him contacting
a third country to seek money, no.
Q Did you know that in 1985, that General
Singlaub was working for Ollie on certain matters
UNCfLWiFiED
31
(^N§L^S^FIED
29
1 regarding the Contras?
2 A No.
3 Q I want to get back to this General Singlaub
f rom^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^fk and
5 read you something to see if it refreshes your memory.
6 It's from a February 6, 1985 memorandum, from Oliver
7 North to Robert McFarlane.
8 Our reference is it begins N-7013.
9 A What's the date again?
10 Q The date is February 6, 1985. The part that
11 concerns you I will read to you.
12 A Please.
13 Q The sentence begins, "Regarding the first
14 matter, as a consequence of General Singlaub 's recent
trip^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hf h a V e
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^that they to
17 help in a 'big way. ' Clair George has withheld the
18 dissemination of these offers and contacted me privately
19 to assure that they will not become common knowledge."
20 Do you recall doing what Ollie says you did
21 here?
22 A No, I don't. I would find it most remarkable
23 if I did, but I don't.
24 Q Do you deny that you contacted Ollie
25 concerning General Singlaub?
UffeCMlED
32
llN€Lft$StP9fD
30
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A I cannot remember that. I mean, I would be
shocked and I would forget that if I had done it.
No, I don't remember that.
Tell me that one more time — that I knew?
Q I'll read it to you again.
"Regarding the first matter, as a consequence
of Gen eral Singlaub's r ecent trip" — that is, a trip to
solicit aid for the Contras —
[have indicated^^H
rthat they want to help
in a 'big way. ' Clair George has withheld the
dissemination of these offers and contacted me privately
to assure that they will not become common knowledge."
A I can't believe that.
I mean, if that means what it says, that the
^Itold^^^^^^^^l — is that the
way you interpret it?
Q That's right,!
A I don't believe that. I mean, I couldn't. It
would be impossible.
We ask^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^B
believe that.
No, I don't recall that.
Q Let's take this apart, then.
Can you recall then —
33
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN0LftSSlPEO
31
MR. PEARLINE: Paul, would it be possible to
show it to him?
MR. BARBADORO: I would be happy to show it to
him. I've read it to him twice.
BY MR. BARBADORO [RESUMING]:
Q I'll represent to you that the only part of
the memo that concerns you is that one paragraph. But
you're welcome to lock at it.
[Pause]
MR. POLGAR: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
MR. BARBADORO: Back on the record.
THE WITNESS: Are we back on the record?
BY MR. BARBADORO: [RESUMING]:
Q Yes.
A We are back on the record.
No, it makes no sense to me at all.
Q Let me take it apart and talk about the parts
of it.
To your knowledge, did your CIA
Fever receive
inforroation that General Singlaub had approached
and requested aid for the Contras?
I think
may have known that. And
umraFfED
34
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN€kftSS4I^l^I)
32
that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hreported that.
Q What is the basis for your conclusion that
they may have done that?
A Memory. It is either a matter of record, or
they didn't.
I mean, th ey cabled in and said Singlaub is
fand Singlaub is seeking
money for the Contras. And if we did what we should have
done, we cabled back and said have nothing to do with
him, it's his business, it's
Q Ordinarily, what would you do with that
information once you received it, other than to kick it
back?
A Probably nothing.
I probably would not disseminate. I mean, if
a cable from||^^^^^^^^^^^^^|^^H and
that General Singlaub was^^^^^^^fand he had heard!
Ithat Singlaub was seeking private
assistance to the Contras, I would probably not dissem
it.
Now, that means I would not make it an
official intelligence dissemination. I might share it
with Casey, I might share it with the National Security
Council.
UWCtffSSIFTED
35
UNCLASmiED
33
1 Q Do you have any recollection of sharing it
2 with Ollie North?
3 A No, I don't.
4 Q Is there any reason why you would give the
5 information to Ollie North and withhold dissemination of
6 the offers so that they would not become common
7 knowledge?
8 A Well, I would assume that if Singlaub was out
9 seeking private funds for the Contras, he was seeking
10 them on behalf of the National Security Council.
11 Q Why would you assume that?
12 A Because the National Security Council and
13 Ollie North, we have already said, has been given the
14 responsibility of seeking private funds for the Contras.
15 Q So, if you would have done what it said in
16 here, you would have done it because you would have
17 assumed that Singlaub was acting on behalf of Ollie
18 North?
19 A Probably.
20 Q So that we are clear, you don't have the
21 recollection of —
22 A Of that incident. But it's not a world I've
23 never heard of.
24 Q To your knowledge, didj
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■ever
UNCLASSIFBEO
36
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UAf€t/ltSIF^O
34
to the Contras?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Did your knowledge, did they ever give money
to Ollie North or anybody working with Ollie North
A Not to my knowledge.
Q ^^^^^^^^^^^^^B^lhas said that he was asked
to give a briefing!
'about the status of the Contras in 1984.
From whom would he have gotten that
instruction, to give that kind of briefing?
A Gee, I don't know, Paul.
Q No. This was while he was head of the Central
American Task Force.
A I don't know.
You could ask him.
Q Do you have any recollection of giving such an
instruction to
A I do not.
I might have, but I do not.
I would not be opposed to asking the chi ef of
our Central American Task Force to brief
on the status of Central America,
the Contras, the Sandinistas.
(/WCiraFlED
37
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
t^Net^SSfFIEO
35
We were briefing people at all times. But I
don't rem ember. I may have, but I do not remember giving
that^^^^
Q Are you aware of any attempt by any United
States Government official to solicit aid fron
[for the Contras?
A No.
^^^P^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Vbut I
didn't know about itT^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^W—
Q Do you know whether Director Casey ever
anybody in^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hto
request aid for the Contras.
A There was a rumor — I don't know that. I
would find that very unlikely.
I might say here that it was my impression
throughout this affair that Director Casey was fully
aware of the restrictions on — as he treated me, he was
fully aware of the restrictions on the agency. I would
be very surprised if William Casey made a direct approach
to any foreign government, because he realized the
complexity of the legal situation.
WeLASSfFlED
38
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN6k#$SfffED
36
I am familiar with his tripsl
and we had our guys with Bill Casey almost 24 hours a
day, and he didn't do that.
You know, this is a personal opinion, but I
would be shocked if Bill Casey were out soliciting. But
I can't say he didn't.
Q Are you aware of a trip that Dewey Clarridge
made to^^^^^^^^^^lin
A Yes, I am.
Q Wasn't one of the things he did when he was in
Ito discuss the Contra situation withi
Q Did they talk to you about the possibility of
giving aid to the Contras?
A I do not remember that.
Q Was Mr. Clarridge given the assignment to go
to^^^^^^^^^Bto discuss the possibility of obtaining
aid for the Contras?
A Not by me, and not to my knowledge.
Q And do you know whether he asked for
CODEWORD
■ rtftf^tCRET/CODEWOl
B
39
UN£LA$${|;jED
37
1 assistance for the Contras when^^^^^^^^^Hthere?
2 A I can't believe he did because the meetings he
he with^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H and
4 would have heard about it.
5 Q When do you first recall hearing General
6 Secord's name?
7 A I met Secord — I didn't tell the SSCI.
8 Secord was in the room on Saturday, the --
9 Q Eighteenth of January?
10 A Eighteenth of January.
11 Q Was that the first and only time you've met
12 him?
13 A And only time I met him. So I had not heard
14 about him.
15 Q Had you ever talked to him prior to that date?
16 A Never — never again.
17 I was introduced as, "General Secord, this is
18 Clair George. General Secord is a consultant to the
19 -National Security Council." I said whoopie.
20 Q General Secord's name and his association with
21 Edwin Wilson and that group is now well known.
22 A Uh-huh.
23 Q Prior to the publication of the Iran arms
24 deal, did you know that Secord was associated with Wilson
25 in any way?
ONCEirSSllltO
40
UN^/rSSTRED
38
1 A Yes. I knew it, from the Inspectors General
2 at the agency and gossip in the halls. And then I knew
3 it from not Maas ' s book but the first Wilson book, the
4 name of which — I knew Secord.
5 MR. POLGAR: "Death Merchant."
6 THE WITNESS: "Death Merchant." And I knew
7 Secord was part of that.
8 To answer a question that has not been asked,
9 I brought all of this to Bill Casey's attention and so
10 did Stanley Sporkin, and so did John McMahon, and that
11 was that.
12 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
13 Q I want to get into that.
14 It's fair to say you were concerned about this
15 Iran arms initiative for several reasons. One of them
16 was the involvement of Secord, isn't that right?
17 A That's right.
18 Q I want to get into that a little bit.
19 A I want to make it clear on behalf of Mr.
20 Secord that I was not holding any information that he was
21 legally guilty of something. It was just a name that had
22 been associated with problems for the Central
23 Intelligence Agency.
24 Q I want to talk about something a little bit
25 earlier, and that was the information that was obtained
[OP SECRET/CODEWORD
TOP SECRET/CODEWORD
UI^CLASSIF!ED
41
UNdtftSStFSED
39
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
by the CIA in March of 1985, that General Secord was
involved in a purchase of arms for the Contras from
Do you recall getting information in March
that General Secord was involved in obtaining weapons for
the Contras from!
A Paul, we had several reports of Secord^ and
Singlaub free-booting it around the world, and I'll be
damned if I can remember that.
I think on one of them, there was a lot of
reporting. It may have been!
:hat he wanted things shipped and he didn't want
them shipped, and he got them, or he didn't get them.
I'll show you some cables.
Q Please
MR. BARBADORO: I'd like to mark as George
Exhibit 1 the cable dated 5 March, 1985,
^1^ [The document referred to was
marked George Exhibit No. 1,
for identification.]
MR. BARBADORO: And as George Exhibit 2, a
memorandum for Assistant to the President for National
Security Affairs, not dated, signed by Clair George.
[The document referred to was
marked George Exhibit No. 2,
U1fCLAS!^IFID
42
UNa^SStRED
40
1 for identification.]
2 THE WITNESS: Question: do we know if I
cm
3 really signed it? I mean, my name is all of them.
4 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
5 Q I understand.
6 A You don't know?
7 Q As far as I know, that was obtained from the
8 CIA. I believe it ' s a copy of what actually went to the
9 Assistant to the President.
10 A All of those have my name typed at the bottom,
11 and some I signed and some I didn't. I don't remember.
12 Q I think this is — and we are speaking now of
13 George Exhibit No. 2 — that this is a CIA copy of a
14 memorandum that went over to the Assistant for National
15 Security Affairs. f
16 A I do not recall either of these documents.
17 Let me retract that.
18 I do remember something about
19 .But I don't remember that one. And I don't remember what
20 I remember.
21 Q Mr. George, isn't it true that one of your
22 interests in 1985 was how the Contras were obtaining
23 arms?
24 A One of my interests? What do you mean?
25 Q Isn't that one of the things that you were
UNCimWED
43
10
41
UlfCLftSSIFtED
1 concerned with in your job as Deputy Director for
2 Operations?
3 A Well, I don't think that quite states it
4 fairly.
5 Q Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
6 A There is a great debate whether we had any
7 interest in that subject.
8 The accusation is generally why did you not
9 investigate that subject more closely in 1985.
To answer your question, did I, Clair George,.
11 have great personal interest in how they were getting
12 their arms, yes. I was sort of like everybody else in
13 town — how the hell were they getting their arms?
14 Did I, Clair George, Deputy Director of
15 Operations, consider it to be a critical intelligence
16 collection activity? The answer was no.
17 Q Wouldn't it be important to you to know that
18 the Contras were receiving SA-7 missiles?
19 A Yes. And I think we had — in fact, I know
2 from^^^^^^^^^^B-- that we had a pretty good picture of
21 what the arms were, of what they were receiving. But I
22 would not want to say that it was a very big, important
23 issue on my plate.
24 Q Having looked at George Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2,
25 do you recall whether you knew in March of 1985 that
^HcmsMo
44
UHCmtfO
42
1 General Secord was involved in purchasing SA-7 missiles
2 and other weapons for the Contras?
3 A I can't remember that, Paul.
4 I mean, I knew, again — it's very important -
5 - I knew the White House, through Oliver North — and I
6 have already met at this point Secord, so I know he's in
7 this game — are out in the arms business.
8 Q This is 1985.
9 A This is 1985? Oh, I'm sorry.
10 Q It's 1985. You wouldn't have met them until
11 1986.
12 A Oh, I'm sorry.
13 I knew Oliver North was out in the arms business,
14 and I must have assumed, and I would certainly not have
15 been surprised that Secord may be assisting him.
16 I certainly knew and would not have been
17 surprised that Singlaub was assisting him because the
18 game was for the White House to get private support for
19 the Contras.
20 Q In 1985, you knew Oliver North was involved in
21 raising money for the Contras, you thought primarily from
22 private Americans.
23 A Uh-huh.
24 Q Did you also know around that time that North
25 was playing a role in obtaining weapons for the Contras?
UNeiftSSinED
45
UMCLASSIf^D
43
1 A Well, the way it works is you get the money.
2 Now if you work under the theory that we now know isn't
3 the way it really worked, rich private Americans give you
4 a lot of money. Now you can't go buy weapons in the
5 United states, for a variety of discrete security and
6 good taste and legal reasons, so you go abroad and work
7 the international arms market ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|
8
9 So if Oliver North were to have got a lot of
10 money — and it was assumed he was getting some because
11 the arms were going to the contras and somebody was
12 paying for it — we assume that Oliver North is using
13 someone to work the international arms market. We now
14 know that's all true.
15 Q Did North ever say anything to you about that?
16 A North never discussed that with me.
17 Q And you never asked him about it?
18 A No, I didn't ask him about it.
19 Q What I'm getting at here is I'm trying to
20 determine when you first knew that Secord was involved in
21 supplying the contras.
22 A To answer that fairly, I must have known then,
23 if I read that cable, and I would have, I think, Paul, to
24 be as honest as I can be, that if I would have read a
25 cable that Dick Secord was overseas buying a lot of arms
UNMSWfED
46
UNCitSStHED
44
1 for the contras that I would have probably assumed at the
2 time that that was part of the deal.
3 Q When did you know that Secord and North were
4 "associated together in their efforts on behalf of the
5 contras?
6 A Well, my mind is so riveted on the day when I
7 saw them both standing there together that I might have
8 to say if there was ever any question, that was the day,
9 in the White House situation room.
10 Q When did you learn that Secord was associated
11 with the private benefactor, what's been called the
12 private benefactor resupply effort in the spring of '86?
13 A Geez. I don't know. I suppose I found out
14 when it sort of became public.
15 Q Which was? I mean not until after November of
16 '86?
17 A November, October. I may — well, let's not —
18 I could say ask^^^^H Maybe he knew. He was down there
19 somewhere. Everybody — Secord, Singlaub, they are here,
20 they are there. You don't need a Ph.D. to figure out
21 that they are using money to go buy arms, we think.
22 Q When did you first hear the term "private
23 benefactors"
24 A Probably in the spring of '86. I never heard
25 it quite so — you know, they were people up to then. To
UIICLASSIFIED
47
1 get your own titll
2 '86.
3 (Laughter.)
4 Q Who did you understand these people to be?
5 A Well, I sort of understood them to be more of
6 the crowd that was increasingly successful gathering arms
7 on behalf of the White House for the contras.
8 Q Did you know any names?
9 A Hasenfus I found out later was one of them;
10 Felix Rodriguez. I mean, Paul, I don't dig down into
11 that thing that deeply.
12 Q Let me ask you the question directly. Did you
13 know that Oliver North was working with these people who
14 had been called the private benefactors?
15 A I assumed it all along, absolutely.
16 Q And did you ever receive any direct evidence
17 that he was?
18 A No, because this is a very important point for
19 which Michael has heard the arguments, the Agency can be
20 criticized. We were so concerned that we were enjoined
21 by the law of 1 October 1984 from giving any support to
22 the contras that the subject was so emotional and
23 controversial that we went out of our way and tried not
24 to learn what was going on.
25 We also have — and I have said this to a
oifctrarfED
48
UNCkASSKlED
46
1 variety of people in various testimonies — you've got to
2 remember that you can't take your spy agency and beat it
3 around the ears for a decade to stay away from Americans,
4 don't report on them, don't do this, don't do that — if
5 you see one coming, go somewhere else — and then jump
6 all over us because we are not reporting on Americans.
7 That's not a totally fair argument, but within some
8 emotional degree it's not that bad.
9 MR. MOFFETT: Clair, do you need a break right
10 now? Would you like to take a couple of minutes?
H MR. BARBADORO: Let's take a little break.
12 (A brief recess was taken.)
13 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
14 Q Mr. George, a couple more questions about
15 George Exhibits 1 and 2 . On George Exhibit 1 there are
16 some cryptonyms at the top. Can you just tell me what
17 those are?
18 A Well,^^^^lmeans that it's more secret than
19 most things, and I have no idea in the world what any of
20 the others are.
21 (Laughter.)
22 Tom's an old expert. Tom, if you know, you'll
23 have to come back to work.
24 MR. POLGAR: Well, I wouldn't do that.
25 (Laughter.)
UNCLASSIFSED
49
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN€LJ^l£^D
47
THE WITNESS: Just because we have cryptonyms
doesn't mean we know what they mean, Paul.
MR. POLGAR: The first one means that it's
business of the Directorate of Operations.
THE WITNESS: ^^^^Hl You are worse than
that. I knew that.
MR. POLGAR: The ^^^^^^^| means I
[somehow, because it comes from
THE WITNESS: It is a^
They have a whole series of
cryps.
MR. POLGAR: The other three I would take to
mean refer somehow to the project, operation cryptonyms.
They all start with^^^^^^kVou should know what^^His
for.
THE WITNESS: That is what you lawyers are
there for.
MR. POLGAR: Is that ^^^^^^^^^^| now?
MR. PEARLINE:
MR. POLGAR: Yes,]
THE WITNESS: That is the last time Paul is
going to ask that question.
MR. POLGAR: They are distributional
indications.
(JN€LASSfFIfD
50
UH€Li^^^^^^
48
1 MR. PEARLINE: Maybe it 's^^^^^^^^^
2 (Laughter.)
3 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
4 - Q I will drop that line of questioning. Let me
5 ask you about George Exhibit 2. I have been told that
6 it's unusual that this kind of memorandum would be sent
7 only to one person. This one is sent to the Advisor for
8 National Security Affairs. Do you know why that would
9 have been sent to only one person?
10 A I would suspect — let's see. What is the
11 date here? What did we say the date is?
12 Q It refers to this cable in March of '85.
13 A I would suppose this was sent privately to Bud
14 McFarlane because we presumed Bud McFarlane in the
15 National Security Council may be involved in it.
16 Q Okay. Just so we are clear, tell me the basis
17 for that assumption.
18 A The National Security Council has — I was not
19 there, but everybody above GS-10 knows the National
20 Security Council has been charged with seeking private
21 support for the contras. This is no secret. The CIA
22 runs across a piece of intelligence that says somebody
2 3 somewhere is buying arms on behalf of somebody from the
24 contras.
25 Now what does CIA do when it has intelligence
UlfCtASSIFffD
51
UHCUSSIfJED
49
1 that specifically refers to something? We have
2 information that the President of a country dislikes
3 George Shultr, so we will send it to George Shultz, eyes
4 only. If we find out that the Chairman of the Joint
5 Chiefs has made an ass of himself on his trip to France,
6 we'll send it to him only.
7 I presume, Paul, we sent it to Bud McFarlane
8 because someone presumed that he would be the guy that
9 knew something about it.
10 Q All right. How did you think the southern
11 front military commanders were going to survive during
12 the period of Boland II?
13 A I honestly can't answer that. I mean, I don't
14 know. I don't know what you mean, I guess.
15 Q The reason I ask is I sat through a deposition
16 witn^^^^^^^^^^^fand watched a 20-year CIA agent break
17 down ^^^^^^Hwhenhe discussed the condition of the
18 southern front. It was obvious to me that he felt a
19 .great deal of responsibility for those southern front
2 commanders.
21 A Absolutely.
22 Q They were in the field. They weren't being
23 supplied. They were getting sick. They were going
2 4 without food. They were going without weapons. What I
2 5 want to know is what did you think was going to happen to
ui«;i/rss!r?iD
52
UHOLASSiFoSED
50
1 these people that the CIA played a role in sending out
2 into the field?
3 A Well, let's be very honest now with each
4 other. The Congress had cut off the support.
5 Q I'm not blaming. I don't mean to blame the
6 CIA.
7 A I've been through this thing now for a long,
8 long time. I wish them well, Paul. It's a very
9 complicated life here in Washington. It's going to
10 happen again. We're going to get about^^^H|Hin there
11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and then we're going to cut off the aid
12 again. There's going to be another^^^^^^^^^^^H There
13 are going to be people in tears. But I'm not here to
14 give a lecture on foreign affairs. We've got to get it
15 straight.
16 We can't get in these things i
17 ^^^^^^^1 ^^ have done it in Nicaragua. And I'm not even
18 arguing it was the right thing to do at that stage.
19 That's ever man's political position. But I have been at
20 this a long time, and if there's a criticism of this
21 country that should be leveled at it in the world of
22 foreign affairs, it's that you can't count on us.
23 And there's a good argument. Michael knows
24 better than I that we probably shouldn't get into the
25 goddam things even if they are wrong. Of course, I
UN€lftSStFS£D
53
UMOLA^SfFfED
51
1 worry. I worry about the people and I can understand
2 full well.
3 What did Clair George think? Clair George
4 thought holy God, here we are again. Another mess.
5 Q But you knew that there was nothing you could
6 do unless Congress was willing to vote more aid?
7 A See, coming out of a Congressional job gave me
8 a different approach than many of the guys in the
9 Directorate in that I appreciated the dynamics of the
10 Congress. I appreciated the opposition in the Congress
11 and I appreciated the arguments against it. But this was
12 the law of the land. This was what the Congress of the
13 United States had decided.
14 The Central Intelligence Agency was out of it.
15 Now I wasn ' t^^^^fyou know. ^^^H — God bless^^^H-- was
16 down there. These are people he knows and lives that he
17 cares about personally. I am cut out of it a bit. I am
18 farther away. But I know what you are saying. But I,
19 Clair George, said that's the price of an ongoing
20 democracy.
21 Q Did you know in the period of March through
22 September of 1986 that^^^H^^^^Vwas providing flight
23 vector information and intelligence information to the
24 southern front forces in connection with lethal resupply
25 drones?
UHGkft^lF^^
54
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
uNetftSStfttJ^
52
A No.
Q Did you read the^^Hcable traffic to the
Central American Task Force froinl
A Paul, you know, we^^^^^^^^H cables a month.
I may have read some; I may not have read some. My
memories of the issue were that as the "private
benefactors", who we've already agreed by now have a
title, which means they are getting to be a big show, as
the private benefactors went roaring down there,
particularly in what struck me on the wings of NHAO,
which was your famed Nicaraguan —
MR. PEARLINE: Humanitarian Assistance.
THE WITNESS: Humanitarian assistance program,
it went from some sort of people trying to buy arms and
shipping them to a big-time operation. We ran more and
more head-on into the private benefactors and ini
[countries down there, in varying degrees, we had
■that were sort of saying, geez, here are these
guys,^particulai
was sort of saying, goddam it, what the hell's
going on here, and we're giving them this dumb CIA answer
it's none of our business.
We don't want anything to do with it. Stay
UttCtftSS(F4£D
i
55
UNCLAS$lfJ€D
53
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
away from them. Don't get near them. This was the
problem poo^^^^^^^^^^^B oi^^^^^^^^^^^^Hin
I^^^^^^^^Bsome pooi^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hguy
and said hello to somebody and now he thinks he's going^
up-river. All these issues were very complicated,
someone told me, solved this problem, no
trouble.
I mean, how silly can the law become? I mean,
America looks ridiculous to legalize a war in such
detail. I remember once driving through the streets of
with^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand he
those M-16S those guys are holding, those 16-year-old
soldiers? They are allowed to shoot at
terrorists, communists, but not criminals, rapists. I
mean, you know, we make life very tough for ourselves.
No, I didn't know that^^Vhad a trouble down
there at that point.
Q When did you find out that he was —
A Sometime in the fall of last year, and I don't
have any paper on it. People began to worry about
and people were saying I know about^^Band I'm worried
about^^H and Clair gave the standard answer 101 —
please make sure he's not breaking the law. Make sure he
understands the problem.
Q When did you find out that he had been taking
UNCLftSSfFliED
56
UNiikA^SlFO
54
1 instructions from 01 lie North?
2 A In the fall. I don't know. I wish I had that
3 date because I've been asked by a lot of people,
4 including Gates a couple of times. I don't know what day
5 it was, but suddenly one day I was told he's got a radio
6 that Ollie gave him.
7 Q Would it have been after Hasenfus or before
8 Hasenfus?
9 A Give me a date for Hasenfus.
10 MR. POLGAR: Five October.
11 THE WITNESS: I would think after, Paul. I
12 wouldn't want to have my feet held to the fire, though.
13 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
14 Q Okay.
15 MR. POLGAR: Off the record.
16 (A discussion was held off the record.)
17 MR. BARBADORO: Let's go back on the record.
18 BV MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
19 Q Let's turn to a different subject and get back
20 to hostages. Do you recall an operation to free the
21 hostages starting in 1985 that involved DEA agents and
22 their informants in Lebanon?
23 A Yes. You're going to have to remind me of the
24 details, but at the Hostage Location Task Force DEA came
25 up with someone at about that time who was going to be
UN€LAS$fF9eD
57
yK^Lft^i^i^i)
55
1 able to help free the hostages.
2 Q What did that plan involve?
3 A I don't remember.
4 Q Well, what can you remember about it?
5 A That they had^^^^^B informant who, and again,
6 like everybody else knew somebody who knew where they
7 were and there was going to be money involved. I'm sorry
8 I don't really remember the details.
9 Q Let me mark as George Exhibit 3 a memorandum
10 of June 7 from Robert McFarlane to Oliver North, subject
11 Status of the Hostage Recovery Efforts.
12 (The document referred to was
13 marked George Exhibit Number 3
14 for identification.)
15 MR. MOFFETT: Excuse me. June 7?
16 MR. BARBADORO: June 7, 1985.
17 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
18 Q Mr. George, take a look at George Exhibit 3.
19 Specifically there are two operations described, one
20 beginning on page two, DEA operation, and that may
21 refresh your memory.
22 (Pause.)
23 A I do not remember this. This is typical of
24 case after case after case of bums, crooks, and petty
25 thieves trying to sell hostages. Now again I don't want
UNCtUKSfTED
58
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UK€kMStf4€D
56
to denigrate this particular operation, but every guy in
the vorld — you see, the way to handle the hostage
business is the way you do it in the United States.
Somebody says to youl
But I'm sorry, Paul. I don't know any part of
this that I can remember. I remember DEA having contacts
in Beirut,]
land I can remember the Hostage Location Task Force
following up with this and at that time it was probably
but I don't remember the details.
Q If an operation like this were to involve CIA
^would you have to
approve that operation?
A I have been through this a lot, so I really
know what this is all about. These guys would come out
and I don't know that one (indicating) , and we may have
gotten involved in, so that doesn't mean that we didn't
(indicating). And they would say we're in touch with
someone in Lebanon who can get you a hostage for money.
I worked under what we later learned or knew
was not the — well, it's all arguable. We can get into
that later. But the Henry Kissinger 1975
kidnapping/hostage policy, which is you don't trade
VKLHSSinED
i
59
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
anything for hostages.
[t was
always known that there was private money. I mean back
for 15 years I've always known there was private money in
this country for the lives of Americans.
And even in the Kissinger era of kidnappings I
knew ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ suddenly money would appear. It
wasn't U.S. Government money, but somebody arranged it.
The whole concept of money, private money and government
money, is always there. Ollie North always sort of
implied when we were talking about the hostages that if I
ever thought that I needed money and that policy dictated
it, but I didn't want to take it from CIA funds because
UN€kftSStHED
60
lJN€l.#SS#$cD
58
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
they are Congressionally-controlled, he could get money.
I would imagine I could name three names that
I could pick up the phone tonight and say Tom Polgar's
son is being held hostage in South Yemen and I need $1
million, and I could get it. It's a very goddamn
complicated business. I'm sorry. This operation? I
don ' t know ; I don ' t remember this thing.
Q But you never recall a plan involving DEA
agents bribing free the hostages for $1 million apiece in
'85?
A Not a plan. You know, everybody had a plan,
but up until somebody said okay, here's my plan, now give
utrcLW^ri£D
61
UNCtftSSfffED
59
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
me the $1 million, I sort of looked on everybody's plan
as another plan. I don't remember that, to answer your
question.
Q At some poin1^
Ithey started getting money from Ollie NorthT
What I'm trying to find out is was there a time in this
DEA operation that the CIA decided it didn't want to be
involved any further, and do you have any knowledge of
that?
A It's possible. I do not have any knowledge.
I certainly could check it with the people who may
remember better than I.
Q Who would make that kind of decision?
I would.
But you don't remember it?
I don't remember it. I mean, again please —
A
Q
A
UHCttSSfflED
62
UK€LA$StFlfD
60
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I probably make as many decisions a day as anybody we
know. I know you know that. But someone, my NE guy or
my terrorism guy or my hostage guy, would come to me and
say I think the DEA or we believe the DEA case is running
string. It's a bunch of hocus-pocus. It's a phoney.
We're being ripped off. Let's stop. And I would say
let's stop.
But when DEA — my position on the hostages
was that I would bend over as far as the law and good
sense allow^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bon the
hell their condition was, and seek information which,
dear God, might lead to their rel<
Q If someone were going to bribe the hostages
free for $1 million apiece, is that something that would
require a Presidential Finding?
A You see, the strange thing about this whole
affair is all through the entire time that the Iranian
arms deal is going on the American policy still was not
to pay for bribe for hostages. So that's tough. It's
complicated. If the President decided that he was going
to have official United States Government money spent to
bribe for hostages — I assume you're saying he's turning
UNCtiftSStFfED
63
UHClltSStFtED
61
1 to the CIA.
2 Q If there were a plan that involved the use of
3 government money, would it require a Finding?
4 A I don't know. I would have to ask Mike.
5 That's a legal question. I mean, I've given up trying to
6 figure out exactly when we need a Finding. I ask the
7 lawyers. Lawyers, do we need a Finding?
8 MR. PEARLINE: You would, I think, need a
9 Finding.
10 THE WITNESS: See what my lawyer said?
11 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
12 Q To your knowledge was there ever a Finding for
13 this operation?
14 A God knows. Having now learned that there were
15 lots of Findings written about Iran that I didn't know
16 about, I can no longer say if a Finding were even written
17 that I would know about it. I did not know of such a
18 Finding.
19 Q I don't mean this to sound confrontational,
20 but around this time you were very concerned about
21 Buckley and the other hostages.
22 A Absolutely.
23 Q You spoke with Ollie North frequently?
24 A Yes.
25 Q One could only assume that if Ollie North had
UNCt^SffllD
64
UNGbJ^SIflED
62
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
a plan like this that he would communicate to you.
A He probably did.
Q Do you recall him talking to you about a plan
like this?
A He probably did and I do not recall it,
because it is — and again this sounds, and you are not
confrontational. I sound crazy, but it is one of endless
hairbrained schemes that took place at that time.
Q Did some of these schemes come from Ollie
North?
A Well, Ollie North madel
I mean, Ollie North was a
very shrewd operator. I mean, all other things aside,
excesses and tunnel visions, Ollie North had a lot of
creativity on the subject. Ollie North was very good at
The President
of the United States wanted the hostages out. It is not
an unfair request. After looking at what has happened,
it may look embarrassing or silly or ridiculous and
everybody spent a hell of a lot of time.
I repeat again if my son or brother or father
UNCLASStFSED
65
UNaASStFlED
63
1 were in there, I would want every son of a bitch in the
2 American government to spend an awful lot of time trying
3 to get him or her out. Now the law is nonexistent,
4 basically, other than you can't spend Congressional
5 monies and all the rest of it. I mean, the whole idea
6 that you don't trade for hostages — in which I believe
7 very strongly because it just leads to the mess we are in
8 in Beirut — is that of the original five hostages we
9 have 14 or whatever it is.
10 Because now everybody is going to sell them
11 for something. The law side, as my dear wife said, you
12 guys are all big and tough. Boy, you sit around those
13 rooms of power and you decide people's lives. The
14 President of the United States wanted those guys out of
15 there, and Oliver North did his thing and we all did our
16 best, and I think within what we did — and it never
17 ended; I could get records of all the stuff we did — we
18 didn't break the law, but we bent over backwards to try
19 • to do everything we could.
20 And I would do it again and I would do it
21 today, as long as my lawyers tell me.
22 Q If you thought a plan like this — that is,
23 bribing out hostages for $1 million apiece — would work,
24 would you approve it?
25 A No. You see, Paul, the whole idea is — I
Utf€LASStP!ID
66
UN^iAS^l^^
64
1 lived abroad 20 years. The problem is very simple, that
2 when they find out they can kidnap me and get $1 million
3 for me, they would kidnap Tom and Mike and ask for $2
4 million, and then when they get that they would kidnap
5 David and Page. I mean, the world never ends. No, the
6 right answer is you can't bribe for hostages. That's the
7 right answer.
8 Now there are a million — you see, the whole
9 thing in the Iran arms deal was, as I told Senator
10 Eagleton when he was sort of mushing around the hall with
11 me, there were some thoughts you really weren't bribing
12 for the hostages. You really weren't giving the arms or
13 the money directly to the Hizbollah; you were giving them
14 to some other guys and it really wasn't a bribe. That's
15 in addition to whether you should be giving arms to Iran.
16 The right answer is, don't pay cash or
17 anything else for hostages. But, gee, whiz, is that hard
18 to live up to when it's your emotional problem and not
19 somebody else's.
20 Q And this was your emotional problem because it
21 involved Buckley?
22 A Well, you see, I knew Buckley was dead. We
23 ought to get the date. Get the date, gentlemen, ^^^^j^P
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^HJI^^^H^Vthat Buckley was
25 dead. That wasn't if, and, maybe, sort of, kind of, we
UH€LASSlRiD
67
UMCIftSStf^D
65
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
have a report, he sounds sick.
I assumed at that date —
and that's sometime in the summer, I think; Paul, we can
get that for you — that was the end of it for me. There
was no more Bill Buckley.
That did not make it, as I told the Tower
Commission, it doesn't make it any less important. I
mean, every other American should be just as important
and is.
Q In any event, you can't recall this DEA plan?
You can't recall —
A I recall DEA had contacts in Beirut, but I
can't — you've kindly let me read the whole thing, but I
don't remember it.
Q And you can't recall Ollie North telling you
about it, about a specific plan that involved bribing the
hostages free for $1 million and putting up $200,000 up
front?
A This is a sort of silly answer. Knowing Ollie
UNCt1tSSfF?ED
68
UN€LASS)FI£D
66
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
very well, he may have told me that, but Ollie told me a
lot of very strange things that he was doing for the
hostages, and I don't recall that. Ollie was getting
boats. Ollie was flying to Beirut. Ollie was getting
airplanes. And he meant well. He meant to get the
goddam hostages out.
Q How about a plan, a similar plan, involving
the same DEA agents and the same plan in the following
year, in May or June of '86?
A It may be the same one I remember. May I be
frank with you?
Q Please.
A God bless the DEA. They are a wonderful
organization.
MR. BARBADORO: Let's go off the record.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
MR. BARBADORO: Back on the record.
UNCLftSS»FI£0
69
UNCiftSSeED
67
1 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
2 Q Did you ever learn that Ross Perot was
3 providing money to Ollie North to help gain the release
4 of the hostages?
5 AX think I knew that, and I think maybe Ollie
6 at some point told me something to the effect — Ollie
7 always claimed to be close to Ross Perot and Ross Perot,
8 I think, makes no bones about it, since he writes
9 articles about his involvement in this affair, but I sort
10 of had at some point either heard Ollie tell me or
11 someone told me. I assume that Ross Perot is one person,
12 and I assume he would be today, that I could go to if a
13 decision were to save someone's life and I needed money
14 and I could prove my plan, that he would help me.
15 Q At any time did you ever do anything to try to
16 prevent these plans that involve paying bribes to gain
17 the release of the hostages from taking place?
18 A I don't remember a single operation that
19 involved bribery or purported bribery that 1 thought was
20 worth anything, that anything would ever come out of it.
21 I never felt, though, that that level of hand me cash and
22 I will hand you hostages would ever work.
23 Q You just didn't take these plans seriously?
24 A I'm sorry, I really didn't. The guys, again,
25 holding American hostages are in a big-time international
UN€tftSS#SED
70
UNeLftSStFlfD
68
1 operation.
2 Q When did you first learn that United States
3 arms were being sold to Iran in the hopes that hostages
4 would be released?
5 A Are you talking about United States arms under
6 the control of Israel or United States arms under the
7 control of the United States?
8 Q Yes, it's arms under the control of Israel.
9 A Probably in the fall. Let me walk quickly
10 through my experience of the fall. Somewhere in late --
11 and this was not part of the SSCI testimony because I
12 just didn't recall it; we have all had a lot of time to
13 think and I read my testimony the other day and I know
14 what I was thinking about — Bill Casey called me into
15 his office — and this is a matter of record with the
16 Tower Commission and with some others — well, he didn't
17 call me in his office. I was in his office together
18 with, I think, John McMahon — you can ask John, or I
19 should ask John when I see him.
20 Somebody else was there. John McMahon said to
21 me you won't believe what Bud McFarlane just told me in
22 the White House, and obviously that captures the interest
23 of the employee. And we said, what, what. And he said
24 the Israelis have an operation that involves the
25 Iranians, which could possibly lead to the release of the
UNGtflSS!f*ED
71
UNCkftSSIff^
69
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
hostages. But, the government of Israel has told Bud
that the absolute demand for us to be knowledgeable or
involved in whatever it is is that CIA must never know
about it.
And Casey said to me, now, you know, who
knows? Maybe he knew all about it and he was just
playing games — I don't believe that. Casey said to me
in the late summer or early fall I wonder what the hell
Sometime that fall I became aware that arms had been sent
to Iran by Israel and I thought, when I testified before
the SSCI last November or December, that we had provided
communications equipment to Bud McFarlane, who went to
Israel, and I was very vague be cause I didn't kn ow. What
I think I now know
imous airplane that went in and
came out and "crash-landed" -- I still don't know what
UNGbftSSfRED
72
UM€LASSl£l£D
70
1 happened — and indicated that there were arms going into
2 Tehran.
3 And I somehow knew or associated that with the
4 release of Benjamin Weir, and how much I knew the
5 details, not much, because the whole thing becomes
6 graphic to me the famous last weekend in November.
7 Q You said several things I want to ask you
8 about.
9 A Please.
10 Q The meeting with Casey, give me the best
11 estimate of the date that you can on that.
12 A I wish I could. I would suspect September.
13 I've really racked my brain. I will ask John, if John
14 was there — God knows we were not in the room alone with,
15 him, and there was a twinkle in his eye. I had the
16 feeling that Casey really didn't know what the hell was
17 going on.
18 Q And as best you can remember what did he tell
19 you the operation was?
20 A I'll quote it again as best I remember it. He
21 said, Bud tells me that the Israelis have — and this is
22 all paraphrasing it, of course — but it went like, Bud
23 tells me the Israelis have a contact with the Iranians
24 which could possibly lead to the release of the hostages.
25 Q And at that time he didn't say anything to you
UN(^«SStFIED
i
73
UNetASStFBED
71
1 about arms being involved?
2 A Casey said to me, frankly -- and again, you
3 know, this is a complicated world; who knows when your
4 leg is being pulled -- Casey said to me I don't know what
5 the hell he's talking about. And he then emphasized, as
6 I say, again that the Israeli demand to allow us to be
7 part of it, which is now the way I read it a year and a
8 half later -- whatever it is; two years later — was that
9 you won't tell the CIA; they must not know about it.
10 Q Have you ever found out why the CIA was not
11 supposed to know about this operation?
12 A No, but let's you and I guess.
13 Q I'd like your guess. It's probably better
14 than mine.
15 A Because they were certain that we would have
16 to tell Congress. They had, for a variety of
17 geostrategic reasons — and they still have and always
18 will have, as Tom knows, as Mike knows — the Israeli
19 necessity to seek accommodation with Iran. It is part of
20 the geopolitical realities of the Middle East. And they
21 had made contacts. We now know, we guess, they made them
22 through Mr. Ghorbanifar, and they wanted the Americans to
23 get involved.
24 Everybody is talking about a dialogue.
25 Everybody's talking about hostages. We have the weapons.
UN€LASStFSED
74
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UH0b{^lE^
72
Well, you read what I said to the SSCI. It's the same
thing.
Q On or about the 9th of September North asked
Charlie AllenI
A Could be. Charlie Allen did that ? I never
knew C harlie A^^r^^^^JJ^^^^Char lie Aller^^^^^^^^^B
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■totall^^^
unknown to me through the fall.
At some point, and I thought it was in '86,
Charlie Allen, whom I rarely see, came to my office and
said, I have been aske d to make available
God
knows what. And he sat with me for about ten minutes and
talked about them and left. It's not unfair to Charlie,
but we formally never discussed them again. I see
Charlie in the halls all the time.
That may have been what I read in the fall of
•85.
Q In your Tower Board interview you said that
you did get^^^^^^^^^^^^^H and that's consistent with
what you're saying now. You also said that you talked to
\3HaR^f^®
75
UKCWS1IJ£D
73
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Charlie Allen several times about it. Is your
recollection the same as that?
A My full recollection of it all was that I paid
very little attention to it eventually. I couldn't
understand it. Into the picture came guys I trusted and
knew. After January comes staf^ employees of my
who — ^HBHHIHilHHD —
well, he doesn't really work for me, but he's a guy in
whom have — f igure|^^^^m|^^^^and
then I pay' less and less attention to it.
Charlie did not perceive me as a regular guy
to brief on the issue.
Q But you did geti
A Oh, I probably got
[and hostages
Did you draw that conclusion,
those conclusions, in the fall of '85?
A In the fall of '85? I must have, but they
were not American arms. It was not an American
operation; it was Israeli. The Israelis were up to
something that we were sitting around watching, which was
going to lead to hostage release, so it wasn't us.
uNtt/rsmiED
76
UNeiASSIFfEi
74
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q And you had no idea that it was North who had
given that tasking to Charlie Allen?
A No, I was never told about that.^^^^^^^^^f
), I didn't know
North tasked Aller
A Okay. I must have known that arms were being
traded by the Israelis for hostages. I certainly must
have known from William Casey's comments that some part
of the American government was involved in it. I can
remember talking to Ollie North about the release of Weir
and the great pleasure that everybody had that this had
taken place and that there was a role the American
government had played in it. But I did not have the
picture I then got later.
Q What did North tell you?
A North said, gee, I wish they would release
Q But didn't North tell you something about his
role in this thing? I mean, Ollie North, if there is one
thing Ollie North is, he is the kind of person that would
UNCLffSSinED
77
UN^L^SStfe
75
1 talk about these efforts.
2 A Well, I think he didn't want the Directorate
3 of Operations in this mess. I didn't read all of the
4 thing, PROF notes, but I'm told if you read them, we're a
5 bunch of jerks. I mean, we can't get the damn thing done
6 right. And so, therefore, you sort of operate with
7 Charlie or you operate with somebody else. I'm not sure
8 that I did ever know that. I don't ever want to claim I
9 didn't know that.
10 Q After Weir's release did North tell you that
11 he had been released because the Israelis shipped arms to
12 Iran?
13 A Not in those specific words that I can recall.
14 Q What do you recall?
15 A I don't recall. I do not recall knowing that
16 Weir's release was involved with the airplane flight. I
17 knew about the airplane flight because there was all
18 kinds of re p orting about the airplane flight.
19
20
21
22 And I knew then that Weir was released, and I probably
23 associated — my recollection, Paul, is that starting
24 then — and I don't want to change the subject and come
25 back to it — compared with the realities of what I then
UNCttSStf^D
78
UN€LASSIF»I£D
76
1 knew following the last week in November, into the
2 Finding, I was still slightly foggy in the fall of '85.
3 Q Is it fair to say you knew something was going
4 on involving Israel and the hostages?
5 A Absolutely.
6 Q And that it involved some kind of arms • —
7 A And the Americans knew about it.
8 Q And the Americans knew about it.
9 A Damn right.
10 Q But you didn't know that TOWs were being sold
11 to Iran; is that right?
12 A Absolutely correct.
13 Q You have testified that you were gone on
14 November 22. The weekend of November 22 you were out of
15 headquarter s. Whe re were you?
16 A
17 Q And when did you leave the headquarters to go
18 to]
19 A I think I left Thursday morning. I mean, you
2 guys — gee, they even found my travel vouchers that we
21 just shipped to you guys. I can't even find my own
22 travel vouchers. There wa
23 The fact that I
24 nothing to do with it, Paul,
2 5 (Laughter. )
UNCLHSSIFrEB
79
UN€L^SSt(^lEO
77
1 Q Were you out of touch with your office from
2 the 23rd to the 25th?
3 A Ves.
4 Q In your absence Juchniewicz was in charge?
5 A Ed Juchniewicz was Acting. Well, I think he
6 was in charge of the office.
7 Q Before you left, did you know anything about
8 Clarridge being asked to line up a proprietary, a CIA
9 proprietary, for this flight
10 A No.
11 Q When did you first hear about it?
12 A I came back Monday morning, Monday afternoon,
13 went in. McMahon was in a rage. He told me to pull
14 together the traffic, meaning the telegrams, that took
15 place, went back and forth. I got them in, put them in a
16 little folder and took them to John and read them when I
17 took them, and that was when I first knew about it.
18 Later John came in, again quite upset and
19 terribly concerned, talking to Juchniewicz, and his
20 remark, which is burned in my mind, was not only did we
21 send the goddam telegrams, but the goddam airplane went
22 in. Now obviously we know that that was the famous
23 proprietary flight.
24 Q Have you seen McMahon ' s memorandum for the
25 record of December 5?
liNCttSStFfED
80
UNCraSSTPED
78
1 A No. ^-.-
2 Q Excuse me -- memorandum for the record of
3 December 7, 1985. Let me mark that as George Exhibit 4.
4 (The document referred to was
5 marked George Exhibit Number 4
6 for identification.)
7 (Pause.)
8 A I'm sorry. This is so fuzzy. I have not seen
9 this memorandum before.
10 Q The memorandum refers to a meeting where
11 Juchniewicz is briefing you about what happened while you
12 were gone and McMahon was present. Do you recall a
13 meeting like that?
14 A Well, I would think that was the same time
15 when McMahon and Juchniewicz arrived in Juchniewicz 's
16 office and McMahon was furious and Juchniewicz was
17 telling me about all these cables that had gone out.
18 Q Do you recall the time of day that was? Was
19 it in the morning?
20 A It would be in the morning of the day that I
21 got back, and I assume it would be Monday morning.
22 Again, my travel vouchers will say whenever I got back.
23 Have you seen that before?
24 MR. PEARLINE: Yes.
25 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
UNCLffSStFIED
81
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UH€LRS^Stf^O
79
Q The memorandum talks about a meeting on the
25th wher^^^^^^^^l was giving you a "spot report" on a
flight the^^^^^^^l airlines had made in support of the
NSC mission. Do you recall a meeting where^^^^^^^Hwas
giving you a briefing on the^^^^^^^H flight?
A I don't know. I mean, we could easily have
called^^^v He was in charge
and controlled the proprietary ,^^^^^^^^V I'm sure we
did call him up and ask him, but I don't remember, Paul.
Q Prior to the 2 5th did you know anything about
an NSC mission?
A No, I did not.
Q What were you told was shipped on the aircraft
on the 2 5th?
A I don't know what I was told was shipped on
the aircraft on the 25th. I am now told I was told that
it was oil-drilling equipment.
Q You can't remember what you were told?
A But, what the hell I thought on the morning of
Monday that so-and-so was on the airplane, I have no
idea. It soon became — whether the knowledge or the
surmise of the Agency — that it was weapons, but that
within the next month or so. But that morning I don't
know what I thought was going on. I assume I thought
whatever Ed Juchniewicz thought, because Juchniewicz, who
UNetASSIFIED
82
UNeiASSIFIED
80
1 was acting for me, would have told ne whatever he thought
2 was on that airplane.
3 Q You don't have any memory of being told that
4 it was oil-drilling equipment on the airplane on the
5 25th?
6 A No, I do not.
7 Q What did McMahon do when he heard that I
8 ^^^^^^^^^^^^had been involved in a flight to Iran?
9 A He said there will be no more activity in
10 support of any of this without a Finding.
11 Q And did he ask you to collect the cables?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Did you collect the cables?
14 A Yes.
15 Q Did you speak to Dewey Clarridge about it?
16 A Yes.
17 Q From reading the cables and from speaking to
18 Dewey Clarridge did you draw any conclusion about what
19 was involved on the flight?
20 A That it was arms for hostages?
21 Q Did you draw a conclusion as to whether it was
22 oil-drilling equipment or whether it was arms that was on
23 the aircraft?
24 A No, I cannot recall that I did.
25 Q Have you talked to Dewey Clarridge about this
onctirssiFiEi^
83
UI^USSIESED
81
1 thing since November of '85?
2 A Not in a formal sense, in an informal sense.
3 Everybody knows that there is disagreements about what
4 happened.
5 Q Are you aware that it is Dewey Clarridge's
6 position that he thought it was oil-drilling equipment on
7 that flight?
8 A I assumed he would have. I can't believe that
9 he would have been told by Ollie North we are shipping
10 weapons and then not have told us that. If Ollie North
11 called him and said we're shipping oil-drilling
12 equipment, I'm sure Dewey thought it was oil-drilling
13 equipment.
Voui^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hhas a
15 deposition in which he has stated under oath that he was
16 briefed on November 23 by a guy who called himself Copp
17 that there were missiles on the flight and he has stated
18 that he sent a cable stating that there were missiles on
19 . the flight to headquarters.
20 Have you ever seen a cable from^^^^^Hon
21 November 23 that referred to missiles being on the
22 flight?
23 A I am aware of this dispute, and I am aware of
to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^A who
25 dear friend and in whom I have great trust, about his
UNt^lSSIRED
84
UII£USStF4ED
82
1 conversation with Secord in which Secord said to him in
2 the parking lot of the hotel where Secord was staying, do
3 you know what we are doing. And^^^Hsaid, please tell
4 me; I've been up two nights and I'd like to know.
5 He said, we're trading missiles for hostages.
6 ^^^^^^^^^ys he put that in a cable. Dewey said — I
7 don't know what Dewey said. Dewey said he never saw it.
8 I think Dewey's right. A cable of that — and that is in
9 no way meant to impugn poor^^^^^^^^^^^Htestimony. I
10 think he sort of forgotten whath^cable^that weekend or
11 what he didn't. A cable of that impact could never have
12 just disappeared in the Central Intelligence Agency.
13 Q Is it fair to say that if you had read a cable
14 like that on the 2 5th you would remember it?
15 A Boy, would I remember it.
16 Q And you do not remember any cable fros
17 A I have seen no cable like that.
18 Q Discussing the fact that there were arms on
19 .the airplane?
20 A It was even more brutal.
21 MR. POLGAR: Off the record, please.
22 (A discussion was held off the record.)
23 MR. BARBADORO: Let's go back on the record.
24 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
25 Q I may have asked this, but let's just be clear
UNCtltSStHED
i
i
85
UN^^SMED
a3
1 about it. Vou never saw a cable f rom^^^^^^^^^^^H in
2 November 1985 which discussed the fact that on that
3 flight there were supposed to be arms going to Iran?
4 A I did not.
5 Q And to your knowledge no such cable exists; is
6 that right?
7 A To my knowledge, no such cable exists.
8 Q If a cable had been sent eyes only to Dewey
9 Clarridge it would also be sent to you, wouldn't it?
10 A The privacy channel that he would be allowed
11 to use would be only seen, other than by him and his
12 secretary, by me and Ed Juchniewicz and our secretaries.
13 Q Do you know whether your records have been
14 reviewed to determine whether there is such a cable?
15 A We would not keep chronological copies of his
16 privacy channels. We keep chronological copies of our
17 privacy channels. But we're not an office of record, so
18 the dozens and hundreds of privacy messages over a month
19 - that are being sent by bosses, mostly about personnel
20 problems, which are sensitive, are not held by us.
21 Q Do you know whether the DO records have been
22 checked for this cable?
23 A I do not, but I can't believe they wouldn't
24 be.
2 5 MR. PEARLINE: They have been checked, yes.
UNCLASSlftID
86
UNekASSlRED
84
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
reference
A
Q
BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
Let us mark a cable dated 25 November 85,
[as George Exhibit 5.
(The document referred to was
marked George Exhibit Number 5
for identification.)
Mr. George, take a look at Exhibit 5, please.
(Pause. )
I saw tnis cable.
That cable mentions the fact that the pilot of
the plane told the ground control^^^^^^^^pthat military
equipment was involved in the flight. Do you recall
reading that in November of 1985?
A I recall seeing this cable, and I assume I
either saw it in November — 1 must have seen it in
November. I also recall talking tol
^^^^^^^^^^^■who came to see me early in the following
year and told me of the same incident.
Q From that cable,
from your discussions with Charlie Allen,
from what Casey told you about an operation, from
everything else you knew in November of '85, did you
reach a conclusion as to what was really involved in that
flight on the 25th of November, when you received this
cable"
UNCtftSS^ED
87
UNCLASSIftED
85
1 A Well, I did not assume absolutely that it was
2 weapons. I mean, I must say, reading this cable
3 hurriedly in a day, that there is in my mind the
4 skeptical. So the pilot said military equipment, so he
5 didn't have to check something or something. I — yes, I
6 probably believed personally they were weapons, but I did
7 not know they were weapons.
8 Q Did McMahon in his meeting with you on the
9 25th say anything about whether a Finding would be
10 required for this kind of activity?
11 A He said to me and to Juchniewicz, I believe
12 together — you can ask Ed — there will be no more. You
13 see, I am perceiving, and certainly by reading McMahon's
14 memo, which I do not recall, that John knew more about
15 this than I did, which he should. That's reasonable
16 because he's the Deputy Director, Acting Director at
17 times. John said there would be no more support of any
18 of this without a Finding.
19 And that I recall clearly. He knew, I think,
20 more about what this was than I did.
21 Q Do you know whether he asked somebody in OGC
22 to draft a Finding?
2 3 A I don't know that. I mean, I know now, Paul,
24 after the fact that he did, but at the time I did not.
25 Q He didn't tell you anything about a Finding
UN0LASSIFtE{)
88
UNtLASStFilD
86
1 being drafted?
2 A Nope, not that I can recall.
3 Q Did you know at the time, in November of '85,
4 that a Finding was drafted on November 2 6 and sent over
5 to the White House?
6 A No, I did not that I can recall.
7 Q Did you know that efforts were made between
8 November 2 6 and December 5 to determine whether the White
9 House had approved the Finding?
10 A I was not part of that that I can recall.
11 Q Were you at all' concerned that people working
12 for you had engaged in activity that required a
13 Presidential Finding without Presidential approval?
14 A Well, I was concerned, but I delivered the
15 file and the evidence to John McMahon, who was obviously
16 personally involved in it, and then came another day and
17 another issue and another problem. But I presume,
18 because — and I'm not being unfair to John, a dear
19 friend — I just presumed John was terribly concerned and
20 John was going to take care of it, because he was very,
21 very worried.
22 I think John was going to send -- and I don't
23 know if I knew this then; I know this now — but I think
24 John was in telegraphic correspondence with Casey, who
25 was traveling abroad, about this problem. But John sort
UNeiASSfFfED
89
UN€LASSiFtED
87
1 of assumed the problem. Now I'm not chickening out, but
2 John would have taken care of it because he was worried.
3 Q By November 25 did you know that Ollie North
4 was connected with, after reading the cable traffic and
5 discussing with Clarridge —
6 A Dewey told me it was Ollie North that told
7 him, that it was Ollie North that wanted the airplane,
8 that it was Ollie North that was frantic.
9 Q Did you call North and ask him what he was
10 doing in this operation?
11 A No, I did not that I recall.
12 Q You spoke with him frequently on a whole host
13 of matters, didn't you?
14 A Uh-huh.
15 Q Do you recall whether you discussed this
16 particular matter with him in November of '85?
17 A I do not recall that, Paul. I do not recall
18 discussing it. I recall saying there will be no more of
19 this at all until John is satisfied that we can do it
20 and, to the best of my knowledge, even though I've been
21 informed that in December there were still cables roaming
22 around a bout making plans if we wanted to land planesi
23 ^^^^H I was assured by all the players that there would~
2 4 be no activity taking place without a clearance from
25 John, who understood the issue better than I, which meant
UNCCISSTFrrD
90
UNtLASStPI€D
88
1 a Finding.
2 And to the best of my knowledge, then, of
3 course, we keep moving up to the famous Finding. Nothing
4 did happen, although whether Ollie had made plans and
5 Dewey sent cables, which I've been told after the fact,
6 and I maybe even saw them, but, you know, I said no more
7 of this and, to the best of my knowledge, there was no
8 more of that.
9 Q When was the first Finding that you were aware
10 Of?
11 A The only Finding, I swear to God, I have ever
12 seen, and Senator Cohen did one on me when he pulled five
13 of them out of his desk in front of the SSCI, was the
14 Finding handed to me by John Poindexter in the White
15 House situation room on the 18th of January 1986.
16 MR. O'NEILL: Could we go back a minute?
17 THE WITNESS: Please.
18 MR. O'NEILL: About the meeting you had with
19 McMahon on the 2 0th of November --
20 THE WITNESS: On Monday.
21 MR. O'NEILL: The 25th of November.
22 THE WITNESS: Whatever date; I don't remember.
23 MR. O'NEILL: You said that you assume he was
24 going to resolve this, but that you then recall saying
25 that nothing more will take place.
UNet«SStftED
91
UttCLASSIFKD
89
1 THE WITNESS: John says I want nothing more of
2 this kind to take place, and I went down to whomever —
3 probably^^^^^^^^H whom we can ask, and to Oewey
4 Clarridge -- and said we're not going to do any more of
5 this without checking it out through the front office.
6 MR. O'NEILL: Do you believe that what you
7 told them would have been clear enough to them such that
8 they would have understood that sending out additional
9 cables to arrange additional flights would have been
10 prohibited or not?
11 THE WITNESS: No. I think it's the thing.
12 You see, planning is one thing; doing is something else.
13 And if you ever were on any given day to know all the
14 plans that were being made inside the American government
15 on all the subjects, you would be so terrified you would
16 leave. You can't stop people planning. You've got to
17 stop them from acting. And I think I stopped them. I'm
18 sorry, I think I stopped them from acting.
19 You k now, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan.
2 I remember once
21
22
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H But the good news is the plans don't
24 count; it's the action that counts.
25 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
imCtflSSIffED
92
imClASSMD
90
1 Q You are aware in this case that there were
2 cables sent
3 A I'm told about all kinds of cables. You know,
4 what would you do, why would it happen. If I asked you
5 to land an airplane, what would it do. And the answer
6 was I don't care how much you talk to the SOBs —
7 Q As long as they weren't doing it?
8 A Don't do anything.
9 MR. O'NEILL: So you don't view those cables
10 as being in contravention to your orders?
11 THE WITNESS: No, because who knows? We may
12 get an agreement that 01 lie North is going to fly another
13 airplane and the National Security Council wants to land
14 the damn thing, and we can 't kee p^^^^^^MI^^Bup for 48
15 solid hours trying to fine
16 again. Let's have something organized this time.
17 You know, we now in 1987, by the grace of God,
18 are here, but this was the White House, and the White
19 House was calling the CIA and they were asking for help.
20 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
21 Q Did you know in November of '85 that Secord
22 was involved in this thing? He is referred to as Copp in
23 the cables.
24 A Yeah, and I now know so much, having talked to
25 ^^^^^^^^Ithat I'm not sure when I first knew that he was
UNCLKSSTFTED
93
UNCLASSIFIED
91
1 the guy on the ground. Bud was in Brussels, Copp wasi
2 ^^^^^^^H They were calling each other on the phone. When
3 I first learned that, Paul, I don't think I knew it in
4 November of '85.
5 Q Okay. Did you know that the CIA secure voice
6 communications system was used to pass messages from NSC
7 people to CIA people!
8 A I think I did. I think I knew that, and I
9 think I asked for the transcripts, the tapes of those,
10 and I think I gave some of them to the National —
11 ordered some of them given to the National Security
12 Council and others I believe are either still in our
13 possession or in your possession.
14 MR. BARBADORO: David, if it hasn't been
15 requested already, we would like all of the transcripts
16 of the secure voice communications system.
17 MR. PEARLINE: The^^Bthatwas used?
18 MR. BARBADORO: Yes ,^^^^^^Band back.
19 THE WITNESS: And I gave some of those, David,
to^^^^^^ Talk ^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^°^^^^H giving
21 one bunch, which was McFarlane talking to somebody, back
22 to McFarlane.
2 3 MR. MOFFETT: Would it now be possible — do
24 you need a break now? It's been an hour.
25 THE WITNESS: Let's have a break.
UNCLISS1F?ED
94
UNei^ASSIfM)
92
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. BARBADORO: Okay.
(A brief recess was taken.)
MR. BARBADORO: On the record.
BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
Q I'd like to mark as the next exhibit, 6, a
document which for our records is C-5281.
(The document referred to was
marked George Exhibit Number 6
for identification.)
Mr. George, I am told that this is a copy of a
document that came from your soft file.
(Pause. )
A No, this is from Stan Sporkin's file. That's
I and
Sporkin getting a job foi
then Sporkin on the computer working on a Finding, and
that was shown to me when they did all of Stan's reviews
because I had never seen that Finding at all.
^hat first thing, Dear |
lis was Stan
getting the kid a summer job. Then the next thing they
ran, and this is Stan's PROF notes, the next thing they
ran was a Finding. Wrong witness, Paul.
Q It came from your soft file, according to Paul
Schilling.
Well, Paul Shilling
I know what
UNCL)f$SfFi!£D
95
lJN€iASStR£D
93
1 that document is because it was shown to me, but it was
2 not.
3 Q Could you have kept a copy of it and taken it
4 and put it in the files?
5 A I wouldn't in a million years have kept a copy
6 of all the documents. I wouldn't keep a copy of it. How
7 Sporkin managed to — that was all written in the era
8 when Stan — what I now know I know after the fact, I
9 think — that was all written in the era that Stan was
10 writing the many versions of the Finding — the mini-
11 Finding, the retroactive Finding, yesterday's Finding,
12 tomorrow's Finding.
13 I recognize it. I smiled because!
14 is a friend of mine and he is a doctor and that's his
15 son, and Stan was getting the kid a job.
16 Q And when was the first time that you saw that
17 document?
18 A I don't know -- since all of this began.
19 Q Somebody showed it to you?
20 A Ves.
21 Q Who?
22 A Somebody at OGC, I think, showed it to me and
23 asked me if I had ever seen the Finding. But, you know,
24 I promise you that it's not. If it's in my soft file, it
25 was placed there by gremlins.
UNCtirSSfF?ED
96
OWmsSfFJED
94
1 Let me see it one more time to see which
2 Finding that is.
3 Q That is the mini-Finding, what's been called
4 the mini-Finding.
5 A I never saw this. This is the famous mini-
6 Finding.
7 MR. O'NEILL: Isn't that unusual? Wouldn't
8 something like that have come through your office?
9 THE WITNESS: It was the only time, Michael,
10 and I made this point both to the SSCI and the Tower
11 Commission, I believe, that the DDO himself and his
12 officers who were to engage in the — what am I saying —
13 in the carrying out of covert action were not involved in
14 the writing.
15 MR. O'NEILL: And you learned about it after
16 the fact?
17 THE WITNESS: The only Finding I ever saw was
18 the famed 17 January Finding when I was taken to the
19 White House and it was only after that, sometime later,
20 that I was informed that a variety — in fact, I never
21 knew there were so many until Senator Cohen of Maine
22 waved in front of my face five of them.
23 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
24 Q Let me jus t rule a couple of things out here.
25 You know ^^^^^^^^^H but you never wrote a draft of a
BNlJtftSStfiO
97
UHMaiEB
95
1 letter on behalf ofl
2 A That's correct.
3 Q And the first time you saw this letter and the
4 mini-Finding that goes with it was when?
5 A Sometime after this confusion began and
6 somebody brought it to me and showed it to me. It was
7 not sometime --
8 Q Sometime after November '86?
9 A After November.
10 Q And you never saw what's been referred to a^
11 the mini-Finding, the Finding written on November 26 and
12 supposedly sent to the White House?
13 A No, I did not.
14 Q And no one ever told you in November that a
15 Finding was being sent over to the President for
16 signature?
17 A No, they did not, to my recollection.
13 MR. O'NEILL: After the fact what explanation
19 ■ was given to you as to why this Finding was not routed
2 through out?
21 THE WITNESS: I suspect that they didn't think
22 I was the biggest fan in history of all of this stuff.
2 3 MR. POLGAR: Yes, I think we can state that
24 ^^^^^^^^^^H^^ ^ medical doctor and all of us know him
25 because he does the annual physicals on all the
uircLKis;sir?ED
98
ItNmSStFiJED
96
1 supergrades.
2 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
3 Q Okay.
4 A If he only knew. Andy Warhol said a moment of
5 ^ame will come to you all.
6 (Laughter.)
7 Q Let us mark this as Exhibit 7. It is the
8 January 17 Finding signed by President Reagan.
9 (The document referred to was
10 marked George Exhibit Number 7
11 for identification.)
12 Take a look at Exhibit 7, the January 17
13 Finding. Is that the only Finding you were aware of as
14 of January 18, 1986, the only Finding on Iran that you
15 were aware of?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And you had not seen any earlier drafts of
18 that Finding?
19 A No.
20 Q Do you recall a meeting on or about December
Clarridge ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|to
22 discuss Ghorbanifar?
2 3 A I remember a lot about Ghorbanifar in December
24 of 1985, Paul. I'm not sure I remember that meeting
25 specifically.
UNCtASSIFIED
99
UN^^SSU^SED
97
1 Q When do you first remember hearing
2 Ghorbanifar 's name being mentioned in December of '85?
3 A Well, at that time we were being urged to
4 establish an operational relationship with Mr.
5 Ghorbanifar to try to get it -- quite correctly, to be
6 fair to everybody — by the Director, who had been
7 informed by people in whom we had some trust, above all
8 the Israelis, who said Ghorbanifar was the greatest thing
9 since bagels, Michael Ledeen, who visited the Director
10 and told him he was a great guy, and the White House,
11 which, as we now know, was obviously quite interested in
12 the Israeli idea.
13 And I think if I tried to reconstruct it they
14 wanted us to handle Ghorbanifar. Now we pulled out —
15 will walk through it again for the record -- we pulled
16 out the file.
17 Q Who is "they"?
18 A The White House, the National Security
19 Council, would like us, I think is my interpretation, to
20 become involved with Mr. Ghorbanifar.
21 Q Who was giving you that information?
22 A Michael Ledeen, whom I know casually and not
23 well, who was at the time — he informed me, and, more
24 importantly, others that worked for me -- an advisor to
25 the National Security Council, said that it was his
UflCEflSS!F?Er>
100
yNDlftSStl^SED
98
1 belief that Ghorbanifar was probably the most capable
2 contact that was available, and the Israelis agreed with
3 him, to open a dialogue with Iran, and the urging came
4 from Michael and from the National Security Council.
5 Q This is in December of '85?
6 A It's in that general period. I could find
7 those dates because^^^^^^^^Hwent out and met
8 Ghorbanifar at Ledeen's house. You know, I don't have it
9 all in my head.
10 Q In your mind in December was Ghorbanifar being
11 connected with the Israeli initiative regarding Iran?
12 A It wasn't in my head at that time. You see,
13 that's why I feel very confused.
14 in the fall in which we now think Asghari — correct me
15 if I'm wrong — is Ghorbanifar, and then in December my
16 memory is we are being urged to deal with Ghorbanifar.
17 Q By Israel and by Ledeen, correct?
18 A Well, by Bill Casey and the White House wanted
19 us to deal with Mr. Ghorbanifar.
20 Q And when you say "deal with Ghorbanifar", what
21 did they want to do with Ghorbanifar?
22 A Well, I guess they truly believed that
23 Ghorbanifar was the individual who was going to do two
24 things, both of which are not ignoble — one, release the
25 hostages; two, open a dialogue with Iran.
imCtASStPTED
101
UN^LASSieED
99
1 Now we, of course, thought Ghorbanifar was a
2 cheat and a crook and totally dishonest.
3 Q You are getting a little bit ahead of me.
4 A Please. I'm sorry.
5 Q How did you understand that Ghorbanifar was
6 going to be used to get the hostages back and to open up
7 a relationship with Iran?
8 A I think by that time Ghorbanifar was portrayed
9 to us as someone who had superb relations at the top
10 levels of what could be described as reasonable elements
11 in Tehran. The foreign policy goals were the following.
12 And that those elements, as a secondary part of it,
13 probably were influential with the Hizb^lah, whom we all
14 knew were holding hostages, as a secondary point.
15 What I can't figure out by memory — and!
16 and^^Hmight answer it more wisely than I — is what was
17 the great anxiety to drag us into it. But there was real
18 interest in CIA's Operations Directorate dealing with Mr.
19 Ghorbanifar. Now we know historically they were already
20 dealing with Mr. Ghorbanifar. Why did they need us? I
21 don't know.
22 Q Did you know in December that Ghorbanifar was
23 connected with the earlier initiative from Israel?
24 A I cannot recall that I did, Paul.
25 Q Did you know that Ghorbanifar was being
52-71U 0101
102
UNGLH^SlfSED
100
1 contemplated as an intermediary for future shipments of
2 arms, U.S. arms, to Iran?
3 A I can't recall that I knew that specifically,
4 but then, on the other hand, to be perfectly fair, I knew
5 that there was very high level interest that somebody
6 deal with Mr. Ghorbanifar. I must have said, why all this
7 interest.
8 Q Did you get your instruction about having
9 somebody meet with Ghorbanifar from Casey?
10 A Maybe. It's no answer, I realize. It may be
11 after a visit from Ledeen that Casey talked to me about
12 having a good look. Casey never said you will do this.
13 Casey said, Clair, I want you to have a good look at
14 Ghorbanifar at some point in that period, and that led to
15 finally the polygraph, the meetings, the discussions.
16 Q When the name was mentioned to you in December
17 by whoever, either Ledeen or Casey, did you know who
18 Ghorbanifar was?
19 A Me, Clair George?
20 Q Yes.
21 A No, unless somebody had told me about him the
22 month before in relationship to the Israeli connection
23 with the arms flight. But Ghorbanifar, at least up until
24 that general time frame, the late fall/early winter of
25 '85, was nobody I had ever heard of.
UNtlftSSffSEO
103
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q According to^^^^^^^B statement to us, he met
with Ghorbanifar on December 22 and December 23. Did you
have a meeting with^^^^^fbefore he went to talk to
Ghorbanifar?
A I'm sure I did, yes. I'm sure I did.
Q And what did you tell him to do?
A Well, you know because you must have talked to
him. I hope I said give it a fair shot. Go meet with
him, get a reading of him, give him a polygraph, see what
he's got to say for himself, see what he can do for us.
We're out in another business now at this point.
Obviously if we could
open a dialogue with the Iranians I'm sure we could get
ourselves a Presidential Finding or however we need to go
about it.
I would hope, I said to^^^l — and^^^Hwill remember
it, I know — I said give it a shot. See what he's
worth. Let's find out if he's got anything going for him
and give it the college try. ^^^^Hmet him and we
polygraphed him.
Q What did^^^Hftell you about Ghorbanifar
after he met him before the polygraph?
A He said he's a crook.
Q Did he tell you about his 201 file?
UNOl/lSSfFi'ED
104
UNci/rswffi
102
1 A Yes. They lined up outside my office.
2 Everybody told us, fighting to get in to tell me what a
3 crook he was.
4 Q It's fair to say that people at CIA, including
5 ^^^^^Band other people that were familiar with
6 Ghorbanifar, didn't think he was a reliable source?
7 A On the other hand, there are two points to be
8 made. Just because you were of no value X years ago does
9 not mean you cannot be of value to the intelligence
10 service. That's very important. And I think the other
11 thing — and this is incidental to the questioning but it
12 should be thought about by all of us here, which was
13 brought out very thoughtfully by somebody on the Tower
14 Commission — give old Ghorbanifar credit. He got Bud
15 McFarlane to Tehran and he got a couple of hostages out.
16 It turns out to be a hell of a price, but
17 Ghorbanifar maybe wasn't quite as incompetent as the
18 United States spy service thought.
19 Q Is it fair to say, though, that after;
2 meeting with him that he,^|^^^Hdid not have good
21 things to say about Ghorbanifar?
2 2 A ^^^^^H absolutely thought the guy was, as I
23 recall at the time — and poor^^^^^f was, you know,
24 after a lifetime serving i n^^^^^^^^^^^B I'd done him
25 the big favor of giving him the Iran^^^^^Hbecause he
UNCLASSIFtED
I
105
UNGLASSiFIED
103
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
was a totally reliable guy. I'm looking for big time
reliable. It's back to our point about
Reliability, strength, skill in tough jobs sometimes is
almost more important than area knowledge — ideally
both. But^^^^^^^^^^^said to me, or I heard he said to
somebody, you know, I have met a lot of crooks, and I
don't know many Iranians, but this guy's crazy.
Q Did^^^^^^tell you that Ghorbanifar had told
him that he had been involved in the earlier arms
transactions from Israel to Iran?
A I don't remember that. But if he tolc
I'm sure^^^^^ftold me because I'm sure^^^Hwould tell
me whatever he was told.
Q What happened next?
A I went to Bill Casey and said Bill, the guy is
really no good. In the meantime, Ghorbanifar at some
point — and again my time frame is all screwed up —
Ghorbanifar produced t he most amazing set of photographs
I have ever seen.
And Ghorbanifar produced these color
UlfCtASSIFfED
106
UN€LASmED
104
1 photographs^
2
3 How would he ever have this? All right, then that
4 happened (indicating). Over on this side (indicating),
5 Ghorbanifar shows nothing but deception on his polygraph,
6 has a record longer than my arm of being unreliable, and
7 my best operators tell me that he's a crook.
8 So at some point somehow I went to Bill Casey
9 and said, Bill^ old pal, this isn't really worth it. And
10 Bill said, I am told, I think, something to the effect,
11 well, let us at least follow up on the terrorism side.
12 We'll have Charlie Allen talk to him.
13 Q That's what Casey told you?
14 A (Nods in the affirmative.)
15 Q You have to answer on the record.
16 A Yes.
17 Q What did you do then, after that meeting with
18 Casey?
19 A Well, you know, Paul, I mean, what did I do,
20 day by day, I don't know, but I watched Charlie Allen go
21 through, and I must take credit for having really screwed
22 it up at this point. I did. I let Charlie Allen sort of
23 go off and meet with Ghorbanifar, and I should have
24 stormed into Casey's office and said. Bill, take it. I
25 know a lot of people in town think I may be a wimp or I'm
UNCtASStPtEB
107
UHCkftSSlf^
105
1 not adventurous, but you can't do this.
2 But Charlie Allen went off to Europe, to
3 London, and whereall — Charlie knows and I don't, and
4 I'm sure he has a record of it — and met with
5 Ghorbanifar.
6 Q This is after the polygraph?
7 A Yeah, and again these times are a matter of
8 record. I don't have the record in front of me.
9 Q Well, at some point a decision was made to
10 have Ghorbanifar polygraphed?
11 A Yeah.
12 Q Who made the decision?
13 A Me, I think.
14 Q And we all know he failed the polygraph.
15 A He showed deception on every question but one,
16 which I think was his name.
17 Q Did you tell Casey about the polygraph
18 results?
19 A Yes, yes.
20 Q What did Casey say when you told him about the
21 polygraph results?
22 A All I can remember — and my mind has been
23 jogged by others because I don't remember — it is that
24 Casey, fascinated by the famous photogr aphs, which I can
25 still see in front of me,
108
UNaHS^lEP
106
1 ^^^^^^^Hsaid let's let Charlie Allen talk to him
2 about the counterterrorist problem, because at this point
3 Charlie Allen is National Intelligence Officer for
4 Counterterrorism. So Charlie can sit down and go over
5 the photos. How did this happen?
6 And we, we should have been braver. We turned
7 this guy over to Charlie Allen. I should have said to
8 Casey that's baloney.
9 Q Didn't your people in fact get the message not
10 to have anything further to do with Ghorbanifar? When I
11 say your people, I mean the Operations people.
12 A At this time?
13 Q Ves.
14 A I can't recall, but if there was, it wouldn't
15 surprise me.
16 Q Well, if I told you on January 14 a cable was
17 sent out of^^^H^^^vof f ice saying no more contact with
18 Ghorbanifar, is that consistent with your recollection?
19 A With what I would have said to people? Yes.
20 It's not very consistent with an agency policy that still
21 has another guy from another Directorate dealing with
22 him, and for that I take great blame. I should have
2 3 fought harder.
24 Q Did you know what contacts Allen was having
25 with Ghorbanifar in January and February of '86?
UNClftSSffitO
109
UHCttSStftED
107
1 A Well, he was on the phone. He was always sort
2 of complaining that the guy was calling him in the
3 office, that the guy was calling him at home. ^sort of
4 derelict in my duty. I just let this thing run because I
5 guess I thought I couldn't stop it, and when you think
6 you couldn't stop something you now wonder historically
7 yourself, personally did I try hard enough. But I thought
8 it was, again, if you will excuse me, sort of an amateur
9 hour activity — international phone calls, winging into
10 London where the Brits are all over the place. It was
11 not a professional intelligence job.
12 But Charlie is not a professional Directorate
13 of Operations officer. You couldn't expect anything
14 else.
15 Q Didn't he come for a while there and in effect
16 act as Ghorbanifar 's case officer?
17 A Well, that's what we're talking about, yes.
18 Q And in hindsight you would say that is a
19 ■ mistake?
20 A In hindsight I say I should have gone to Bill
21 Casey's office and screamed more. But we all know in
22 hindsight what we should have done at different times,
2 3 and maybe I wouldn't have won, because maybe Casey was
24 convinced by Bud McFarlane and the Israelis. The Israelis
UNOtflSSIFIED
110
UNAIA$M1P
108
1 still love him.
2 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K "^^^ think Ghorbanifar
3 tremendous source and an important person, so it's
4 perfectly possible that I would not have been able to
5 change Casey's mind no matter how hard I fought.
6 Q Let me read something that Clarridge told the
7 Tower Board to you. He says: Now, with a lot of
8 hindsight, I think the Director wanted to go on with this
9 and if he had more support from down below he would have
10 taken over the operation instead of just doing the
11 logistics because his people in Operations did not want
12 to deal with Ghorbanifar.
13 A He, the Director, meaning William Casey?
14 Q Yes.
15 A Would have gone on with what?
16 Q With this, I assume meaning the operation
17 involving Ghorbanifar and the arms.
18 A That we would have run it?
19 Q That's right.
20 A But because we said no, he just allowed it.
21 Q To be an NSC operation, where CIA only
22 provided logistical support.
23 A I doubt it. This was going to be run by the
24 NSC. They weren't going to turn it over to the Central
25 Intelligence Agency.
UKCt^SfflED
Ill
UN€ift$SMD
109
1 Q Did you make it clear to Casey in January that
2 you thought Ghorbanifar was unreliable and that it was a
3 mistake to continue working with Ghorbanifar?
4 A Yes.
5 Q And, to your knowledge, is that why Casey
6 chose to have Allen as the contact person for Ghorbanifar
7 for the Agency?
8 A Probably. And I deserve the hit. I mean,
9 maybe I could have made the world a better place if I
10 would have taken the damn thing and run with it.
11 Q Did you ever try to persuade North that it was
12 a mistake to continue dealing with Ghorbanifar?
13 A I talked to a lot of people about Ghorbanifar.
14 I think I talked to John Poindexter at one point. I
15 think Ollie was there. I think I told Ledeen at a
16 cocktail party once that we weren't convinced Ledeen
17 really liked Ghorbanifar personally as a friend of his.
18 I told everybody as honestly as I could
19 without — I don't want to destroy Mr. Ghorbanifar —
20 he's got his life. But I told him we could not, and
21 maybe again, you know, Mr. Ghorbanifar got — maybe it
22 would have been a smarter operation — Mr. Ghorbanifar got
23 Bud McFarlane to Tehran. Mr. Ghorbanifar got some
24 hostages released. Mr. Ghorbanifar didn't turn out to be
25 a total phoney, but he is untrustworthy in our books and
UNaASStFtiO
112
UlfCLRSStFfED
110
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
y
that's why some people think we're not tough enough, and
others think we should be tougher.
MR. O'NEILL: What is your impression?
Is it your impression that he was
acting lor them?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
MR. O'NEILL: What would you describegf his
relationship with the Israelis as being?
THE WITNESS: As an agent.
MR. O'NEILL: ^^^^^^^^^B°^ ^^^ government
of Israel?
THE WITNESS: An agent of the government of
Israel.
MR. O'NEILL: Was that clear, do you think, at
the time? Was it made clear to Mr. Casey at the time
that you had these discussions with him or was that
something that evolved later on?
THE WITNESS: No, I never discussed that
issue, and I think I learned more of it as the thing
unwound, Michael.
MR. O'NEILL: That is your conclusion now, as
opposed to the one that you had then?
THE WITNESS: That's my conclusion now. I
mean, I cannot overemphasize my ea^l^^geclusions that
113
^ftOk^StFt^D
111
1 the Israelis played great roles in getting us into this,
2 but that's no excuse. We are a major power. We are not
3 to apologize because we follow close allies. This
4 Ghorbanifar and the entire Iranian thing was very much
5 part of the Israeli foreign policy plan, as I've
6 discussed.
7 I think Ghorbanifar was an agent of the
8 government of Israel. I think Ghorbanifar was looked
9 upon by David Kimche and Al Schwimmer as a very key
-+k£.ij aye-
10 player and Khashoggi and company — and Vtmix way out of
11 my league when you start talking about that whole crowd.
12 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
13 Q When did you learn that people on the NSC
14 staff had a plan to sell U.S. arms to Iran to gain
15 release of hostages?
16 A On the Saturday morning the 18th of January,
17 1986.
18 Q Let me ask you about a couple of dates before
19 then. North's calendar shows a meeting between you,
20 North and Sporkin on January 13, 1986.
21 A I don't recall it, although it could easily
22 have happened. I would think I would recall.
23 Q What would you be talking to him about?
24 A Findings. As I understand it, Sporkin either
25 drafted, or was involved in drafting this, so if Sporkin,
.nvolved m drafting thi^
114
^N@t#SSff?gk)
112
1 North and George were together in the middle of January
2 if would be to discuss a finding.
3 Q This is on the 13th, before the finding was
4 signed.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Are you telling me now that you may have
7 worked on the drafting of the finding with Sporkin and
8 North?
9 A I never worked on the drafting of a finding.
10 I recall absolutely nothing. Your question was what
11 would I have been doing with that crowd. Well, the only
12 conceivable thing I could think I would have been doing
13 would have been talking about findings. I didn't, so I
14 don't know what the hell we talked about. I can't
15 remember the meeting.
16 Q So the only thing you can remember —
17 A Paul, it is perfectly possible that my
18 recollection is wrong, but I feel very strongly about it
19 because it was a very odd finding -- as Michael's
20 question, isn't it strange that the DDO himself is not
21 involved in a finding, and the answer is yes. I was not
22 involved in this finding, yet your question, what would I
23 be doing with Sporkin and North, well, the only thing
24 they had in common was this damn finding.
25 Q If you had worked on this finding or discussed
UlfCtASSIfffiO
115
ii^bA#SrFI£D
113
1 this finding before it was signed, is it fair to say that
2 you'd remember it now?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And it's your testimony that you did not work
5 in this finding before it was signed and you did not
6 discuss this finding with anybody before it was signed
7 because you were not aware of it; is that right?
8 A To the best of my knowledge I was not aware of
9 that finding before it was signed.
10 Q And if you met with Ollie North and Stan
11 Sporkin on January 13, 1986, the only reason that you can
12 think of for such a meeting would be to discuss findings;
13 isn't that right?
14 A It's a strange trio. I mean, they would have
15 very little in common as three except findings.
16 Q But you can recall no meeting?
17 A I can recall no meeting.
18 Q North's calendar also shows a meeting with you
19 on January 16, 1986, the day before the finding was
20 signed. It just says your name on it. Do you recall
21 meeting with North on the 16th before the finding was
22 signed?
23 A I easily could have me«€ with him but I don't
24 recall it. Someone had to tell me what I was doing on
25 the morning of the 18th of January 1986, being told by
UltCtASSIf^O
116
UN(^ftSWE9
114
1 Casey and/or McMahon to go to the White House. It was
2 not a mystery why I was jgoing to the White House, because
3 I took]
4 If I were going to the White House without
5 knowing what I was doing, I would have gone to the White
6 House. So I knew, I guess — common sense dictates I
7 knew that I was going to be shown this finding, a
8 Finding, involving the Near East area.
9 So, therefore, asking myself the question, who
10 told me what it was I was going to go do that morning, .
11 and I don't recall.
12 Q Okay. Do you keep your calendars from
13 previous years?
14 A Yes.
15 MR. BARBADORO: Can we please have copies of
16 his calendar for January 1986?
17 MR. PEARLINE: (Nods in the affirmative.)
18 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
19 Q Well, me about the meeting on the 18th. You
20 have made reference to it. Do you know why you were
21 going to it?
22 A I must know why I was going. I tookl
23 ^^^^^^Band there was Stan Sporkin, the top lawyer, so I
24 knew why I was going.
25 Now did Casey call me that morning and say
ifNOSirrfED
J
117
UNetftSStFSED
115
1 this is it, or had I known for two weeks? I can't
There was^^^^^^^^^H--^^^^^^^H was
3 abroad with the Director, I think --who was Acting Chief
4 of our Near East Division; Stan Sporkin who was the
5 general counsel and myself. From the White House were
6 John Poindexter, who by now had become the National
7 Security Advisor; Oliver North, Staff member; and Dick
8 Secord, who came in later and left earlier and was
9 introduced as a consultant to the National Security
10 Counsel to all of us.
11 Those six I remember. There easily could have
12 been others — not a lot; there might have been another
13 staffer — we stood up and I was handed this finding by
14 John Poindexter and I was told we were going to support
15 it, and again the words I don't recall, about a National
16 Security activity that was aimed at opening dialogue with
17 Iran and releasing hostages.
18 I asked very clearly the key question as I
19 sort of read this and read this and I said, now, we are
20 all aboard here from refraining from reporting this
21 finding to Congress, and it was yes. It was my
22 interpretation, as I was told that and read this, based
23 on accumulated knowledge from the past fall and winter,
24 that this was probably aimed at a quick fix to release
25 the hostages, in which you would not inform Congress, ala
UNaftSStFIED
118
UNCl#SSI»ED
116
1 Hostage Rescue Mission 1979, and that somebody knew more
2 than I knew.
3 And then we sat at the table afterwards. I
4 think John left, John Poindexter. And Secord, I think,
5 left too. But Ollie and I and^^H sat for a while and we
6 began to discuss what was going on, which was — and
7 ^^^^^Bgood at this in memory and I'm not -- I mean only
8 that he remembers it better, being more involved — that
9 we discussed getting TOWs out of Alabama and shipping
10 them ^°^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B putting them on planes and
11 sending them to Israel for delivery to Iran, which
12 further cemented in my mind the thought that we were
13 going to get the hostages out.
14 ^^^H and I left. ^^^Vwas instructed by me as
15 my Acting Director, Acting Chief of the Near East
16 Division, to carry on this support as directed by the
17 President of the United States to the National Security
18 Council.
19 Q What was Secord 's role in the meeting?
20 A Not a thing. He didn't say a word. I think -
21 - no, it's too speculative.
22 Q- Did anybody explain what he would be doing, what
23 his role in this mission would be?
24 A He was just produced inside the sanctum
25 sanctorum of the White House. There are no greater bona
UNCLIISStPiED
119
(^N@i^SffiEO
117
1 fides than to have the President's National Security
2 Advisor introduce you around inside the President's
3 situation room. There is little question that you know
4 somebody somewhere.
5 [Laughter. ]
6 Q Was the operation described to you in any kind
7 of detail?
8 A No. It was sort of elementary. It was a
9 logistics problem at that point.
10 Q Was it made clear to you that your role was to
11 be solely a logistics role?
12 A We were going to work with Ollie North.
13 Q Were you told that Ghorbanifar was going to be
14 the intermediary?
15 A I don't recall that. You know, I didn't sit
down with^^^^^^^^^^^and^^^^^^^^^^ and go
17 this by the hour to study what I'm ^ing say today. I
18 sort of think we probably knew that, but I don't recall
19 that exactly.
20 Q After this meeting did you express your
21 concerns about Secord to anybody?
22 A We talked about this earlier. I expressed my
23 concerns about Secord to everybody that would listen to
24 me. I have no facts against Mr. Secord. I have no legal
25 determination against Mr. Secord. I expressed my concern
U1tCLA^Ift£D
120
UNCLASSIRED
xl8
1 to Mr. Poindexter, probably to Ollie, and to Bill Casey.
2 I expressed my concern about trading for hostages to Bill
3 Casey and to John Poindexter.
4 As I told the Tower Commission, at no time was
5 I not given permission to express my concern on decisions
6 that were made.
7 Q After January, how closely were you involved?
8 A ^^^Hreported to me regularly in general sense.
9 I was very much involved in the beginning witl-
10 great concern that sort of the American side had no
11 Americans.
12 Q You brought George Cave into it?
13 A I think I personally — But, you know, it was
14 all agreed George Cave was probably as knowledgeable
15 about Iran as any American today. And we said we have
16 got to get somebody in there that at least speaks the
17 language. I mean, we are dealing with Iranians, and were
18 told there were going to be more Iranians, and I brought
19 George in. The key question and the key answer I was
20 informed over and over again by^^^H-- and the money
21 problems.
22 The money didn't show up, or only half the
2 3 money showed up. And we couldn't ship the missiles, and
24 ^^^Hwould come and report to me, and, as with!
^^^^^^ as with^^^^^^^^^^V I have ovez^^^^^BAmericans,
TBffi
iim
I
i
121
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
tmCtftSStf^ED
119
and^^^^^^^^^^^^Hforeigners on my payroll, and I
t ru s t^^^^^^^^ n d^^^^^^Ht o t a 11 y .
it. I expect them to come to me when they are faced with
a decision that is difficult, controversial.
In a sort of silly way our role in the Iranian
affair was elementary. It was sort of both logistical
and interpretive. I think George played a bigger role
than that when he later got in it because George did know
a lot.
I felt throughout the entire affair, Paul,
that as with the Contra affair, that the White House was
very witting of the legalities and illegalities of the
roles that the CIA could play. And, God bless them, with
all the problems we are all in, but they never — they
tried very hard not to cross that border to get us
involved in the illegal side of it, which was shipping
arms to the Contras or hocus-pocusing the money with
Iranian affair.
And I never had any meetings — worry with
j^^^^B.- because it was more complicated. Neither one of
them ever came to me and said, Oh, my God, we are being
asked to break the law. ^^^Bcame regularly to me, told
me. There weren't that many meetings. There weren't
that many things we did. The decision had been made.
Ghorbanifar was the man. Then, of course,
UNOtASffiED
122
UHClASmED
120
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
come March, I'm beginning to doubt my own word. There
are contacts, I'm told, with senior Iranians. They may
invite a senior American to Tehran. I say to myself,
this guy's not that bad. And Bud McFarlane goes to
Tehran. It's easy for all the Americans to giggle and
laugh, but that was — and second guess -- but that was
an opportunity that many people thought would change the
power balance in a critical part of the world.
And Mr. Ghorbanifar had done it, together with
the Israelis. And I thought, Jesus, these guys are doing
better. But, the question the press asked, the money —
where was it going, who did it.^^^Vdid his thing, and
our finance guys did their thing. And I was told what
the Operations Directorate was doing.
And at no time — which maybe I should have —
did I dash into the Director's office and say, hey Bill,
we have got to stop all this stuff.
BY MR. O'NEILL: At this point, you are, as
■ you say, receiving reports from^^^^^^^^^H about
whatever he thinks is relevant for you to know. But what
stands out, you say, is money problems. Money doesn't
arrive. There is not enough money.
A Yes.
at there are money
iMramriED
123
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
IS
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UHClftSSIFffD
121
problems on the other side -- that is to say, the
Iranians are complaining bitterly about the price of
weapons?
A I didn't. And I can't believe I would have
known that and I would have forgotten.
I now, as I said to the SSCI — but again how
smart we are after the fact — that the minute — in
order to run it without Congressional approval, and to
run an operation in which the goods cannot be paid for
until they are delivered, you have to seek money, and
they ended up right in the middle of the worst money
changers in the European continent.
And I sort of knew that in the fall. But I
dismissed it in the spring and summer, particularly the
spring when it first started happening.
Q Could anybody else in your office have
"followed this beside yourself?
Dunn.. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Iwhen Juchniewicz retired, Bert came up to be the
AD DO.
Q Would he have read this|
A I'm sure it was made available to him.
Whether he read it or not, I don't know.
UNetASStFlfd
124
UN€fe^Slf4£D
122
1 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
2 Q Did George Cave or anybody else ever come to
3 you and say, we've got a problem here with the security
4 of this operation because Ghorbanifar says he's not being
5 paid?
6 A No. To my recollection, if George said he
7 did, I'd believe George. But I believe that if that
8 would have happened bells would have gone off in my head.
9 Q What role did you play in preparing the
10 Director for his testimony in November of '86?
A In November told ^^^^^^^^^^^^V who has
12 been my staff aide for three years, that what he was to
13 do was to put together the absolute facts of the
14 Director's involvement, which are a matter of record — X
15 meeting, X shipment there, X dollars here — if we've got
16 that record, or get it from finance.
17 And that was oqt^ job. Then^^^Hwas to take
18 that finished piece of DDO input and hand it to Jim
19 McCoullough, who was Bob Gate's Special Assistant, who
2 was then going to put the Agency's thing — because, of
21 course, Charlie Allen is not in the Directorate of
22 Operations and has certain knowledge of this affair — we
23 don't.
24 And we put down our chronology and our facts
25 and we found at the time, as you may have already heard.
UftetftSSIftED
125
UM€kJ^SIf4€D
123
1 sort of poor Ollie didn't seem to have his facts. I
2 don't think Ollie was fudging his facts, but Ollie didn't
3 seem to have a record of what dates all this took place.
4 And there was some debate at a meeting I didn't attend —
5 I think Bert attended with Ollie about when did you meet
6 and why did you meet and where did you meet. But that
7 was the limit of w hat our input wa s to be.
8 I think^^^^^^^^^^^^Bput our statement down
9 and then gave it to Jim. Jim added the rest of it and
10 gave it to the Director and the Director, as was his wont
11 was very, very editorialist in what he spoke. He made
12 changes and added and subtracted.
13 Q Do you remember the controversy about no USG
14 involvement in November of 1985 in the arms, in the
15 November 1985 arms shipment, in his testimony? Do you
16 remember that debate within the Administration about
17 that?
18 A No. The debate I remember was he kept putting
19 ■ poor John McMahon's name in it as having agreed to the
2 November flight, and John didn't, and everybody kept
21 screaming at everybody. I don't remember that
22 controversy.
23 Q Do you remember meeting with Ollie North on
24 November 19, 1986?
25 A I met Ollie North the last time before Ollie 's
uNrasmiEB
126
UNiMSmED
124
1 troubles in the White House situation room. Excuse me,
2 in John Poindexter's office.
3 Q What happened at that time?
4 A And I was in there to discuss — I'm trying to
5 get it straight -- I was in there that day or the day
before to discuss^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V which
7 was going down to talk to somebody in the White House,
8 and Ollie came to a meeting in Poindexter's office. I
9 think that was the last time I saw Ollie. I don't know.
10 I'll look. I'll try to recollect. I don't
11 know what we were talking about.
12 Q It didn't have anything to do with the Iran
13 arms transaction?
14 A Well, it may have. I don't know what it had
15 to do with. I think it had to do with this chronology,
16 that our chronology and his chronology didn't fit. It's
17 coming, it's coming back from out of the dark.
18 Q And what was said about those conflicting
19 chronologies?
20 A Ollie North knew he couldn't fight us. You
21 are fighting a system that lives on record. Yeah, the
22 record may get screwed up from time to time, but you are
23 dealing with an organization that keeps absolute records
24 of what it's up to.
25 And Ollie North, God bless him, doing fifty
UNCtlWfiD
127
|i)HCli^^^°^^^
1 different things, could not keep records like this. And
2 we were saying, but there was a meeting in February, and
3 then there was a meeting on the 2nd of March. And Ollie
4 was saying, I don't know that. And we kept saying — I
5 don't know who was with me; maybe I was alone — but I
6 said, John, you can't fight this. I mean, this is the
7 facts of the matter. Ollie 's got to go back to the
8 drawing board and figure out why his dates don't match
9 ours.
10 Q Do you remember what you were fighting about,
11 what the specific conflicts were?
12 A No I don't. I really don't.
13 Q Do you remember who asked for the meeting —
14 you or Ollie?
15 A Well, I suppose we did, because we were very
16 anxious, watching this thing go public, and this is
17 before Meese's announcement about the money -- the
18 diversion. It is at this point a political humiliation.
19 Superficially it is a political humiliation. So we are
20 trying to be helpful in getting the record straight so
21 that when the record is presented, it is presented
22 correctly.
2 3 We probably asked, because we probably found
24 that the National Security — I think we found — memory
25 — the National Security Council record did not jibe with
UNCLASSfFSIED
128
UltOtA^Sli^D
126
1 ours, and we wanted to make sure everybody sat down in
2 the presence of some important figure like John
3 Poindexter and get this straight.
4 Q Do you then recall this meeting with Ollie
5 being also with Poindexter?
6 A If it's the meeting I'm thinking about — and
7 I would have to check — it's at that time frame. What
8 was the date again?
9 Q 11-19-86 at 4:00.
10 A That would have been it, probably. I can
11 check my records. Would you make note of that, please?
12 Q North's records shows the meeting was with
13 Gates and you. And it says DCI preparation underneath
14 it.
15 A That was probably it.
16 Q Do you recall Gates being at the meeting?
17 A No, I do not.
18 Q When was the last time you spoke with North?
19 A I spoke to North on the phone a couple of
20 times about that period. I met North in that office at
21 that meeting. I called North on the phone in November
22 and told him that I was about to brief the SSCI staffers
23 on our knowledge of the Iranian affair. Because that was
24 the first — correct me — but if I recall, that was the
25 first — as informal as it was; it was in an office in
UH*^*3Sfr?E9
129
UNOi^SStFIED
127
1 the CIA building — that was the first briefing of a
2 Congress in any depth, and it was really an elementary
3 briefing.
4 Dan Finn was there, and other guys, so I mean
5 it's all record. And I called Ollie and told him that we
6 were going to be doing this.
7 Q Did you ever speak to Ollie after November 25,
8 the day he left the NSC?
9 A No, never. Never since.
10 Q Have you ever talked to the Director about the
11 Iran arms deal, and the supposed diversion of funds to
12 the Contras?
13 A William J. Casey?
14 Q Yes, after November 25? That's the date that
15 the Attorney General made his announcement about the
16 diversion?
17 A No.
18 Q You've never discussed the diversion?
19 A Wait a minute. Wait a minute.
20 (Pause.)
21 No, I didn't.
22 Q You never discussed the diversion issue with
23 the Director?
24 A It's all very complicated. Meese announced
25 this on the 25th. I went to the hospital on the 4th of
UlYCtASSIFIED
CiCk rr ■% rk r'\ an n
130
UNCLASSHJID
128
1 December. I was in the hospital for two weeks. When I
2 got out of the hospital, Bill Casey was in the hospital,
3 and I have never seen Bill Casey since late November.
4 Now if I went in there in late November and
5 sort of said, Holy cats — I mean, I saw Bill Casey all
6 the time — and said, holy cats Bill, what do you think
7 of this? I certainly didn't sit down and say, now let's
8 have a long conversation about the diversion of funds.
9 Q When did you first hear the possibility that
10 funds had been diverted from the Iran arms sale to the
11 Contras?
12 A When Meese announced it, or that day.
13 Q You never heard anybody discuss that
14 possibility at this Agency prior to that time?
15 A I keep feeling I'm not part of the crowd if I
16 say I didn't.
17 (Laughter.)
18 It makes you look unimportant. I can't
19 remember. I don't think anyone did.
20 Q That's all I have. There may be a few
21 questions.
22 MR. WEISS: I have just a couple.
23 EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. WEISS:
25 Q If we could go back to the early part of 1985.
IWCtfSSIFfED
131
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
uNansaiEiEP
129
A
'85?
Q
Yes.
A
Okay
Q Say, from January to June, in that period, and
I don't have any desire to go into at all your sources or
methods.
I don't believe anything Ghorbanifar says
Well, I'm not
trying to be wise. I don't believe anything Ghorbanifar
says even though the son-of-a-bitch got us all the way to
Tehran, because he fabricates, exaggerates, changes,
fixes it to meet his own needs.
So, therefore, I have to, as an intelligence
officer, say that Mr. Ghorbanifar 's intelli gence is
useless.
yNCLASSl?:33
132
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UNCLASSIFIED
TOP SECRET/CODEWORD
Now,
I could jump again and go to Bill
Q
Buckley.
A Please.
Q There have been reports that the Director, Mr.
Casey, had turned the joint upside down in attempting to
UirCLl^FlD
133
UNCtftSStflfD
131
1 do something about Bill Buckley. Would you say that was
2 an accurate description?
3 A No. Bill Casey cared. Bill Casey was a
4 professional intelligence officer. Bill Casey had lived
5 through a war. Bill Casey understood the price of what
6 we do. He had great feeling for our business. Bill
7 Casey would have done anything he could do legally to get
8 Buckley out of there. But no, he didn't turn the place
9 upside down.
10 I would say if there was any single person
11 extremely emotionally involved in the Buckley affair, it
was me. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H
13 Casey said, well, we are going to do everything we can to
14 get the guy, and let's work our ass off, as any good
15 leader should, but that newspaper report that the whole
16 place was going crazy is not true.
17 MR. WEISS: That is all I have, Paul.
18 MR. O'NEILL: I have a few.
19 BY MR. O'NEILL: (Resuming)
20 Q Clair, going back to early 1985 —
21 A You like that date. At least it's not '84.
22 Q Well, I'll go back to '84.
2 3 (Laughter.)
24 In February, 1985, were you aware of Singlaub
approachinc^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hin Washington and
UM1S!!D
134
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
imct
soliciting their assistanc
or whatever term you use?
MStgED^"'
A No. That's the Namimbo affair. No. I don't
remember. I remember Ollie North calling me all the time
about that ship. It was driving Ollie North crazy. And
Ollie North wanted to know what we were going to do about
it. It was going to load. It was a Nicaraguan flag ship
going to load in North Korea full of North Korean and
135
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UMCLASSJFl
133
^ow whether Singlaub was out trying to
sink the Namimbo or not, God save America.
MR. BARBADORO: Did the arms ever get there,
to Nicaragua?
THE WITNESS: I do not know. I'm not exf
sure the arms were even put on the Namimbo.
BY MR. O'NEILL: (Resuming)
Q At the time that this project of Ollie's was
being floated about, were you also aware —
A What project. Is there an Ollie project?
Q This is a project to somehow prevent the
Namimbo from delivering its shipment.
A The project to me was only what are we going
to do about this? There was no project.
Q At the time that he had this concern, let's do
something about the Namimbo, were you also aware of any
involvement either he or Singlaub had in approaching the
Ito assist in something like this?
lie says that I introduced him to a
UNCLAS^IFICD
136
LASSlFolID
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q So you never heard of —
A Singlaub approaching —
Q The approach that he Bade?
A I've never met Singlaub, nor have I ever
agreed to — I mean I read it in the papers —
knowledgeable of, involved with General Singlaub.
Q What about Ollie North doing the sane kind of
thing, approach ing^^^^^^^^^^^^^H invoking your
seeking funds for the contras?
A I would never have said to Ollie North — I
would simply not let that happen. The CIA cannot use its
name to seek funds for the Contras. Now Ollie North, God
bless him, could have used my name. It's been used more
than once. But, no, I didn't say use my name with!
Q Moving on just a little bit into '85, there is
a depot, an ammunition depot in Managua, which was blown
tfWettSSfPED
137
UNCttSStFfED
135
1 up at that part of the year. Do you recall this event?
2 A I think, if you keep going, I'm going to
3 recall it, but not recall anything about it. We are
4 accused of doing something.
5 Q I don't know about that.
6 A Okay. Go ahead. Please tell me.
7 Q Do you have any knowledge of someone by the
8 name of David Walker, a British — an ex-SAS officer, a
9 British citizen?
10 A None at all. Never heard of him.
11 Q Or of any connection he may have had with
12 North?
13 A With North? No I don't.
14 Q Or with this event, the destruction of this
15 aoaunition depot at Managua?
16 A No, I don't. That is a story I do not know.
17 Q You mentioned at one point earlier on that
18 Ollie was involved in getting boats and planes. Could
19 you elaborate on that? I think you were speaking of it
20 in terms of in the context of hostage rescue.
21 A Yeah. I guess what I was really talking about
22 was, Ollie was forever chasing the Air Force and the
23 Navy. Could they get a boat off-shore, or endless
24 schemes that the people who were going to bring the
25 hostages out were going bring them out on boats, and
UltCtASSIFtED
138
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Do you recall being approached by North about
using a vessel that he had the disposal of?
A Oh, God. Forever, and ever and ever.j
uM1iliS?i?^5
139
BNG^ASSfFJED
137
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
16
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
And Ollie wanted either to sell it to me,
rent it me, lease it to me. We didn't want Ollie's ship.
God bless him, but I didn't want Ollie's ship.
Q What did you understand about this ship other
than that it was offered to you?
A That he had it and he could get it for you
wholesale.
(Laughter. )
Q Did you have the sense, or did he say that it
would be used for other purposes, like support of the
Contras?
A W« all now know he was shipping arms around in
it. And I think we suspected at that time he was
shipping ams around in it, and we wanted nothing to do
with it.
Q Do you recall having conversations with
anybody at the Aj||^v abfly^t, ;.tl. .■...>»■
140
UMCtA^SfffED
138
Just^^^^^^B and thin)^H^^^Hwas
2 Chief of NE. But I'm saying we don't want that damn
3 ship. I don't care what the price is. It ain't right.
4 MR. BARBADORO: Did you know that Secord and
5 Clines were connected to that ship?
6 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. I know now.
7 MR. BARBADORO: How did you think Ollie North
8 happened to have a ship under his control?
9 THE WITNESS: Paul, I didn't ask. It was like
10 — what^s good about us is what's bad about us. We
11 didn't get involved. Our hands are clean. But should we
12 have asked more questions? That's for the historians to
13 wonder.
14 BY MR. O'NEILL: (Resuming)
15 Q Okay, now we'll go back to 1984.
16 (Laughter.)
17 A You were moving the other direction, Michael.
18 Q In the spring of that year — you'll remember
19 this I'm sure, very well — there was a bombing in
20 Beirut, outside the headquarters of Sheik Fadahlala and
21 people were killed.
22 A Sheik Fadahlala. You remember my 20 hours of
23 testimony before the HPSCI on that subject.
24 Q Recalling that event and what you know about
25 it — and I know you've spent a lot of time looking at
Ul4l^tlSI§MD
141
imCtftSStFlED
139
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
what led up to that bombing — did you see or did you
detect any involvement by N orth in any of thos e events?
A No.
It appeared in the
Washington Post with accusations that the bomb that went
off at Sheik Fadahlala's residence which killed about 70
people was our fault. The guilt was by association.
Q I don't mean by way of suggestion that he had
anything to do with it. I meant did his name crop up in
any discussions?
remember Ollie North's name even on the edges of^ it.
Q This is at a time when he would have had
responsibility for hostage rescue and at a time when, I
believe, there were U.S. hostages.
A Oh, there were. Yeah. Absolutely.
Q What about his relationship, if he had any, if
you are aware of it, to any of the people with whom you
UNCLftSStFtE^
142
UIICUSS1E1£D
140
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q You were saying earlier that in Central
America you would sometimes run into things that North
was doing where the Agency also was operating. Would
that be the case in Lebanon at all?
A I never saw his footprints in Lebanon,
Michael, in the sense of being in Lebanon dealing with
the Government, whatever God knows that is.
Q There is a mystifying reference in the Tower
Board Report, which is, of course, derived from a PROF
note. It is written by North and he refers tc
Well, that's the famous Secor
UNtlKSWIll)
143
PGlASSlilED
141
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Right. What do you know about that?
A That's another plan. It's und«r th« big plan
rubric. I don't know anything. I read that^. I mean, I
didn't read the PROF note. I heard about it. It was
that Secord was going tc
It all fits under the big plan that didn't take place.
Q How would Secord —
A The same way that he could get airplanes when
we couldn't. Remember that one. The CIA can't get an
airplane. Sec ord can get an airplane. Secord can get a
ship. Can't^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^HSecord
Q Is your knowledge about this after the fact of
the PROF note or —
A I never heard of any of this stuff till these
PROF notes appeared, and they make me giggle a little
bit. Everybody is going to be smarter than the CIA.
Q Is it possible that there was an Israeli
connection here?
A Could easily be.
Secord must have had good contacts
somewhere in Israel. It was Israel Secord was staging it
to in order to deliver the arms. And they were flying
them to Tehran. So I suspect, guessing, Secord would
UffCtftSStFtED
144
UNCktSSmED
142
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
have good Israeli connections.
But we did not run across then at any tim*.
the world is awful, and it's the real world, and I hava
never run across North or any of his compatriots on th«
ground doing something.
Q The last subject, and this would call for your
speculation, but you were talking about the statement
that McMahon made to you when he said that, I've been
told by Bud McFarlane that the Israelis don't want th«
CIA involved.
A No, this is Casey who made this to m«.
Q I'm sorry. I thought you said McMahon mad* it
to you in Casey's office.
A No. Casey said to me, guess what Bud told ■•?
Q Okay. All right. So the statement's a«d« to
A Yes.
Q And you speculated that it was because — if
it was an Israeli concern, if I understood you corractly,
that would be because they were afraid that CIA would
have to tell the Congress. And then later on you
referred to the fact that because you had seen the PROF
UN€kA^IF4iD
145
UNCEnSSmED
143
1 notes that North didn't think much of the delays that h«
2 thought were inherent in any CIA activity. As you say,
3 it took you a long time to get a plane that Dick Secord
4 could get in 24 hours.
5 A I'm not sure he ever got it, but that was the
6 interpretation.
7 Q What do you think about that? First of all,
8 do you think that it really was an Israeli objection, or
9 do you think that was really something that was invented
10 at the White House.
11 A Every Administration in this country has
12 finally run either big and terrible, or small and
13 unsuccessful, covert actions out of the White House.
14 Every Administration finally decides that its spy service
15 just can't do it, and whether it's under Carter with poor
16 Hamilton Jordan wandering around in a red wig trying to
17 free the hostages, or whether it's under Reagan trying to
18 sell arms to Iran.
19 Finally, there is some guy in the National
20 Security Council says, who formed that really stupid spy
21 service we have? Let's get a good one. Let's set it up
22 ourselves. And I suspect, having watched the Israeli
23 side of this with Mr. Nir and Mr. Kimche and Mr.
24 Schwinuner, that th« same thing came true, that we just,
25 this is just too important her^ JJUAiif Iran. We are
13
146
UNGLA^IFtE^
144
1 going to open a dialogue. We going to get ams, and we
2 are going to release hostages. So we are all going to
3 set up a private little o peration.
4
5
6
7
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■lom remembers the guys
9 the Agency who are always going to set up their own
10 private intelligence service. It's going to work better.
11 They want to set up something of their own so they can
12 really get it done.
13 And I think the stars came together, and the
14 Israelis and the Americans found each other, and this is
15 what we see out of it. And that is all speculation,
16 totally.
17 MR. O'NEILL: I understand.
18 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming)
19 . Q Two quick areas, having gone over my notes.
20 The Director's calendar showed that he met
21 twice with Secord. Did you know about meetings he had?
22 A I did not know that. I never knew that.
23 Q The second thing was, Ollie North went around
24 telling several people in the CIA, or asking several
25 people in the CIA in the late summer of 1986 if they
UN€LASW1iD
147
UNekASSIfXD
145
1 would ba willing to buy certain asset* that h* had in
2 place in Central America.
3 A He asked ne. He called me, told me about all
4 his airplanes, would I please buy them.
5 Q What did he tell you about the airplanes?
6 A He said they were a good buy,
7 (Laughter.)
8 Q Did he tell you exactly what he was selling?
9 A They were the airplanes that he and the
10 private benefactors are using. The Congress has given us
11 money again. He's getting out of it. Now what do we do
12 with our $3 million worth of aircraft. Let's call Clair
13 and see if we can sell them. What was the answer? It's
14 like Ollie North's boat.
15 Q Did he tell you who owned the airplanes?
16 A Nor did 1 ask.
17 Q And did he tell you how much he wanted for
18 them?
19 . A I think he actually did, and I didn't write it
20 down because I was too polite to want to say, Ollie, the
21 answer is going to be no. And I listened carefully. And
22 I think I probably called him back and said, Ollie, I've
23 given really serious consideration to this offer.
24 It's like an unknown, very senior government
25 official who called me just recently and said, Felix
UNCtftSSH^D
148
bKCUlSSMt)
146
1 Rodriguez doesn't have a job. I'd like you to hire him
2 back again. You know, the phone calls I get would drop a
3 horse, for Christ's sake.
4 (Laughter.)
5 But the answer is you have got to listen to
6 people.
7 Q I'll remember that.
8 A Next time you call.
9 (Laughter.)
10 ' Yeah, he had planes, and this and that. And
11 they were all great, and they were Cassa 9950s. And they
12 all flew upside down. And they were th« only ones left
13 that worked.
14 M^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^y ^° sell you an airstrip]
15 ^^^^^^^^^
16 ^^^^^^^ A No, he didn't try to sell me the airstrip]
18 - Q Did he mention the ship again, that he wanted
19 to sell you the ship?
20 A Never mentioned the ship. This was all ground
21 stuff — well, air stuff and ground stuff that he'd
22 gotten, weapons?
23 Q Did I have the time period right? It was in
24 the summer of '86?
25 A Oh, I don't think he called me until Congress
URCtftSSH^O
149
UNCmStmD
147
1 voted. I think it was sort of in the bag that he was
2 getting — you know all the time, Ollie North sat around
3 saying, I have got to get out of this thing, I have got
4 to get out of this thing. And I kept saying, I don't
5 want to hear about it. God bless him, and I think it
6 comes over in the PROF notes, where he says, you know,
7 Jesus, one poor Lieutenant Colonel trying to run the
8 world.
9 Ollie didn't try to sell me the equipment
10 until Oll'ie knew that Congress had voted us, or was sure
11 the vote was going to be, that we were going to get back
12 into it.
13 Q Did Ollie ever tell you things that weren't
14 true?
15 A Yes — for instance, his endless conversations
16 with the President, and other such minor details.
17 Q Did he frequently exaggerate?
18 A Sure, he did. He was all alone. Look, it was
19 grossly unfair to Oliver North to be asked what he was
20 asked to do. I swear to God there had to be a meeting
21 somewhere with the senior people in this government in
2 2 which they decided they were going to provide private aid
2 3 to the Contras. And Michael knows the emotions of this
24 issue.
2 5 Somebody said, all right, we'll show the
UNCLRSStF^ID
150
UN(H.ft^l^l£D
148
1 Congress. We'll get private aid. Which sort of sounds
2 superficially, fine, all right, get private aid. But
3 what did they do? They turned to Ollie North. They said
4 take care of that. The enormity of what they asked this
5 kid to do is unbelievable. You don't just get some money
6 and put it in a box.
7 You've got to transfer it out of the country.
8 You've got to transfer it to somebody. You've got to buy
9 arms. You've got to ship them. You've got to get
10 planes. You've got to get boats. You've got to make
11 contacts^^^^^^^^^^ wherever it is where the arms are
12 going.
13 Oliver North was asked to do the impossible.
14 And who the hell —
15 Q Who asked him?
16 A I assume th« Administration asked him. Who
17 else would have asksd him? Now whether Ronald Reagan,
18 said "pal" or Bill Casey said "buddy" or George Shultz
19 .said "you're going to save the country," I don't know.
20 Q Do you know whether Bill Casey ever asked him
21 to do this?
22 A Z do not know that at all.
23 Q You know he talked to Casey —
24 A Casey loved him.
25 Q — all the time. They had a close
UN€LftSSlFt£3
151
UNCLASSIFIED
149
1 relationship.
2 A They were close friends.
3 Q He would go over to Casey's house, right?
4 A Well, I do not know that.
5 Q They'd meet for breakfast; do you know that?
6 A I do not know that.
7 Q They talked to each other on the phone a lot.
8 A Their goals were that there's a serious
9 Marxist-Leninist threat in Central America. All of that
10 aside, and Casey, God bless him, kept me out of that part
11 of his life. That said, Oliver North was asked to do the
12 impossible. And so who did Oliver North end up with?
13 Oliver North ended up with some pretty tricky guys.
14 I'm not here to defend Ollie North. I'm not
15 here to attack Ollie North. But if you look at it
16 historically, what the hell he was asked to do is not
17 next to impossible; it was impossible.
18 Q Do you think he was emotionally unstable?
19 A I --
2 Q Here is a guy, he exaggerates, he lies to you,
21 I mean —
22 A No, I don't. I think — look, he had to run
23 this whole thing with a gum band and some balsa wood.
24 And in order to get it done, you've got to do some slight
25 exaggeration. So Ollie would say, Clair George says this
UNClVSSntED
152
uwctirssTnED
150
1 is fine, the President told me that. I don't think that
2 reflects — yeah, I mean if we were all Jesuits it would
3 be sort of difficult to understand.
4 But on the other hand, if you are operating in
5 Washington and trying to do what he was trying to do, a
6 certain amount of exaggeration is to be expected.
7 Unfortunately, when it ends up like this, that it's on
8 record, and you know, I met Mike, and Mike says, I never
9 saw him, it's sad.
10 But I saw no instability. If anything else,
11 he was a work fanatic who virtually killed himself to
12 achieve what he perceived to be — I guess he perceived
13 to be — the President's goals.
14 MR. MOFFETT: Off the record just a minute.
15 (A discussion was held off the record.)
16 MR. BARBAOORO: Back on the record.
17 THE WITNESS: To clarify the record, the
18 meeting where I was told the Israelis have Iranian
19 contacts which they are prepared to share with the
20 Axericans, which could lead to the release of the
21 hostages, that remark was made in the late siumer, early
22 fall of 1985 by Bill Casey in Bill Casey's office to b*
23 and to somebody else.
24 MR. BARBAOORO: Thank you very Buch.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much.
i Li
fB
1
4
153
imctnssfFitD
(Whereupon, at 5:11 p.m., the taking of th«
2 instant deposition ceased.)
3
Signature of the Witness
5 Sub«crib«d and Sworn to b«fore me this
* °' , 1987.
7
Q
Notary Public
9 My Commission Expires:
day
UNaBW?!D
154
UNCLASSIFIED
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
Notary Public in and for the
■•• State of Maryland.
19
1
20 My Commission expires i/'.. -,-. ' ^-^^y .
21
22
CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC
I, ANNE PELLECCHIA HOROWITZ, the officer
before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby
certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the
testimony was taken by me by Stenomask and thereafter
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of
the parties to the action in which this deposition was
taken; and further, that I am not a relative or employee
of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties
thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in
the outcome of the action.
UNCLASSIFIED
ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC.
20FST.. N.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20001 (2021 628-9300
Parlially Declassified/Released onJOhC^Bo 8
under previsions dt c 12356 V •
by K Jchnson. National Secuiity Council
156
SUBJECT
INFORMATION CONT?,0
r\-.« ^ LA * Pj^ _ ,
xvc -CmJ^
OF
r2,VLEp, BY PRIGINATOR--FG:
KAJlKIhlG MOTICE
ENCE SOURCES OR METHODS INVOLVED
t to the President for
1- Security Affairs
purchase of Arns^^^HESH ^<^^ Shipment to
on Behalf of the C.I. A.
C 2^h^
THIS IS AK INFORMATION REPORT, NOT FINALLY EVALUATED INTELLIGENCE
Secor lieavily isplied that he was making the purchases for the
Central Intelligence Agency.
arms exporting
organization, thatlHpm|^|a policy prohibiting arms exports to
any Cent^^^Ame^can country. The "Transamer ica" representat ive
obtained ^^^^^^^Bend-user certificat es, wh ich the
accept ed . ^^^^I^^I^I^^^IHHHHHH^im^^^^^l^^^^H^^^^^^ris t
the arms wereairshippedtoj||^B||^^inlate January B^^^^Eunds
for this purchase came from either the Bahamas or Cay^^^^^^^^s .
DECL: OADR DRV HUM 4-8 2 BY
CLASSIFICATION AND COi:
ALL PORTIOI
JF OVER ALLi
Panijlly Declassified/Reieasea nn_tijF6e t%
under orovisions ot E 12356
by K Johnson, National Security Council
mmm
.5501
;' !r=^-l:rjl5f 5^
157
IWtlASSIFIED
2769
WARNING NOTICE
■^CE SOURCES OR METHODS INVOLVED
5- (Headquarters CoBment- tvi« ^>»«._.i -r .. > , ,
.i^.
Clair EgtG^orge
Deputy DirectoiSiJa Operations
M
jor
OMCUSSlflEB
SSyX
^
158
UiJ^SSIFIED
\ f~ N«tien«l Security Council
Tht Whitt HouM
%Y%t*m§
N 7417
Sf QUI NCI TO HAS Sf IN WSMSITION
faul Thofltpten
■ob Kimmirt
John Mndcxtar
TomSltull
WilmaHall
•ud M<Far1an«
•eb Kimmitt
NSC S«crtt«ri«t
Situation AoO'^
t
w_
1^
.^
n
z
3
Parliail/ Declassitiea/Releasea on_lfirtf«_fig
under provisions ot £ 12555
by K. Johnson, r^aticnal Secaiiy Council
55^
lainfetinitien *• Action IsHttiin OaOiiflbtcA N > Me fvttxf *<t>e
iiabtcA
cc: Vf MMst lakar Oaavcr Other .
COMMINTS
/7
Should ba taan by:
(Oatt/Tima)
^'S-*'^^ A.»<.
.251^
^
159
I
X
I
ROUTING
a.
Nam* and Addrtit ' 0«t*
RobTt McFarlane
"^N^^tHEir
SECRET SENSITIVE
^
I^
3^
ACTION
APPROVAL
COMMENT
CONCUMHENCE
DIRECT REPLY
OrtPATCH
FILE
INFORMATION
PREPARE REPLV
RECOMMENDATION
RETURN
SIGNATURE
REMARKS
cc: Olivar North (•2 and 3)
EYES ONLY
N 741S
NSC/ICS CONTROL NO <00587
COPY NO / OF
HANDLE VIA SYSTEM IV CHANNEL ONLY
EYES ONLY
!
8
NSC INTELLIGENCE
DOCUMENT
Earning Noxi
KUSSltlcfi
Warning Norict
Inttlli9tn<t Seurctt »ri6 M«thOdl involved
NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION
Unauihonttd 0<KlO(urt Sub|t<t to Criminal Sanaiont
S2-:iO C159
EYES ONLY
HEMl
160
MEMORAVCiM
TOP SECRET
N AT 1 O N A L S E. C '- R : T -1 C C ' ^ CI
June 7, 1935
3YS?t.M IV
NSC :C3-40C5;
,V' -7
ACTION
kRlJlNJ
EYES ONL
MEMORANDL-M FOR ROBERT C. KCFARlllNE
FROM: OLIVtR L. NORTHT
SUBJECT: Status of Hoat«9« R«cov«ry Efforts
TOP SE
D«clas
flPWSftlFlED^ilRJ'SinEO
161
^ ONL
— ■ ..peration. At the request of the two DEA officers who
originated the contact m Lebanon, I met with their asset in
Washington. Last weeJc, their intermediary expressed concern with
proceeding with the operation based on the ir.stability inside
-ebarcr.. In response tc their urgmgs (the ZZk officers were
made aware of the possibility that the Dawa prisoners could be
executed shortly after the end of Ramadan--June 19) and the death
of one of his contacts inside Lebanon, he has now agreed to
proceed as fellows:
He will depart Saturday, Ju ne _8 . and meej
contact in Zurope at well asflHBH^^^^W^ho WaH^Sft.
secondary contact inside LebanoTKHew^^urgei
return to Lebanor^n^ajjgnge for a neetlnq on_
one DEA officer^^^^^H hiaeelf, ar
Once contact has been establiihed and a meeting arranged,
the two DEA officers will depart for Cyprua via Vienna where
they will deposit the S200K and establish an account for the
S2M (S500K of which will be avail^l^imediately in U.S.
dollars cash for use in Lebanon) . fll^BHwill then proceed
to the meeting indicated above. ^^^^HB
TOP SECRET
EYES ONLY
82-710 0-88-7
162
TOP SECRET
ES ONLY
H
Th€ primary DEA contict'
hostAxjet can b« bribed ^
7A2]
rer
_^_^_^ b«li«v«« that th«
M a piace as followi:
The S200K will be aufficient to bra
believes that the S200K Aa.-C*«h will be »vt^g ietent to
establish bona fides toflUPmm^^l^fl^o 49ree to
pasjaae of at least 2 hga^?e^T^Onee -the o oeratien is
u .-^_iilii__?r. c t.-.e :-.:s-dcec are i^rc-c.-.
'ill be provided with SSOOK
^1 turn the hostages over toj
^^.-^.ere they will be placed a-circ.
rented yacht for transport to Cyprus.
One of the DEA of f icersj|^H^^|will have proceeded to
Cyprus to rent a safehous^a^a temporary holding
location in the event that all hostages are not
recovered in the first attempt.
The remaining $1.5M made available by the donor will be
released from the account in Vienna as sc
hort4fl£8 are aboard the yacht and at sea'
rhffse funds will bg used to pay t.^g|
It is assuBcd that th« price cannot be negotiated doi^^ive^the
nuBb«r of p«opl« requiring brib«s. Both the DBA *ndflH||^H
believe that this effort will produce two hostages and that
additional hostages will be released for SIM each. The safehouse
will be used to harbor/treat the first two hostages while
arrangeoents (both financia^an^operational) are being made for
the remaining hostages. |^m|^H believes that 72-96 hours would
be required for a ceeond roun^^This assumes that additional
funding is available on a near real-time basis. The donor is
aware that the price being asked is SIM each. He is unaware that
we are proceeding with a plan to release only two if the price
does not come down.
TOP SECRET
ywusaFiHKEs ONLY
163
UNClASSIHEfi
TOP SECRET
EYES ONLY
N 7 4
J«n»^^» °"i<=4£^£^rep«r«d to t«k« l«.v« '•• soon «■ th.y «rc
conc«ct«a oyjHp^H| Travel •rr«n<;»ni«nt« ar.d operational costs
ars currently Dsmg financsd from funds noraally available to the
Nicaraguan resistance. Our normal point-of-contact in the
resistance for these natters is not yet aware.
Suaaary. As discussed with ADM Poindexter, it appears that both
these plans can proceed siaultaneously without undue concern for
coopronise or- mutual jeopardy. Given that arranaenents for the
DEA operation will take considerable tiM (contacts inside
' lS*22£L;__^Aj^i££ilL-i£*£l£i£lAog*> *»d rental of yacht/ safehouse)
RECOMMENDATIONS
1. Th?t you approve proce»dinr with the plar.s outlined above.
Approve >^,^ ■ Disapprove
c ask that the two
jntact the Attorr.ev Gen
era^
2. Thct you
:EA officers __^..^^
temporary detail to the NSC for a perlol
__ be place
of 30 days.
cr.
Approv^ ^ S,^ ■*>
Atta
Disapprove
y
^■^&
TOP SECRET
ONL\
164
UNCLASSIFIED
m!
r 'i^."»-f
N 7423
r
165
ii
iH ;^ ^ n
^^aJ/BV J^
To Ifirl^
^^m^^'
^m
mm^^
MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECORO
SUBJECT: 'ISC "^i 3$ion
7 December 1983
iriiiiiy Declassified/Released on IBff&SB S
undef p'uvisions ol £.0 12356
by K Johnson, National Secunty Council
0395
5303
1. On Saturday, 23 ^<ovembe^ 1985, Ed Jucnm'ewicz asked :Tie if I was
a^are of all tne activity trans^^ia on the effort to get the hostages
out. He snowed -ne a cable tcflHHAasking that we pass a tnessage to the
charge from the Deputy Assist^^^^^ne 'resident for Sational Security
if-3"^'"s. 'le Tiessage issure-j tne :nar;e ".lat pn'y tne Secretary of State
ans Anoassacor Ja<ley ><ere aware of :ne ooeration. I told Juchmewicz
that I was jnaware of the specifics of the operation but due to the
sensitivity of t.ie operation, it xas appropriate that .*e pass
correspondence oetween the NSC and the amoassadors overseas, but only
communications, that we could not oe involved without a Finding.
On •■10 n_dav.^^ne__25t h of ^ovenoer, while visiting the Office of the
DOG ■^^m^^HH^^^waspresen^an^ad given Clair George a Spot
Reoort on a ri ignTtnataBHUHHim^iad -nade in support of the 'JSC
■nis3":)n. ■. *eT. ".nrougn^ff^overhea-: oo'ifng ;ut tnat tne**? was to vay
<*e ::ul'3 oec'nie "ivolved "n any iiio' ementaf: on :- tnis "nission wit.iout a
-•oa-'ng. '^r. j'jc".n'5v.i -; exolaineJ tnat ■•e 313 not iia<a tne
arrangements, ■•"en jeneral Secori yisite'i the Agency ie tried to get
1 eaas on airlines t.iat nignt oe a/ailaole to love aquioment to tne 'Jear
East in 3 secure ■■■asnion. /ie told niin we aid not nave any such airlift
caoaoility. Ho'.tever, Mr. Jucnniewicz sa^a it was poin-ed out to oeneral
Seor^tn^^hPfo «3s a coimercial airlift tnat Tii ght do it owned oy
^^^I^^KK^/Kk general Secord tnen tooK it from there and made
arrangements for a flignt on a strictly coimercial oasis.
3. Scmewnat listressed at tnis turn o- events, I immeaiately
'nfomed our Jeneral Counsel ^^ar :onf' t ng w tn Dewey Clarridge our •
• Tvo" /enent. "' nstructa j ti^^^H^e'scn.ie' to ■^r.ec■3tii,/ ]0 ^ve** ana
or--?- tne jene'i" ^ounse" ma T^^v- set t'e jene-a' -;unsei at 5:1:, tne
iv-eTig 3' 25 lo/e'noe'". is infor-rei -ie 'iter tnat ^'.'jn: tnat a -■■nc'ng
<cu" 3 ;e -eiui-?:. lot so nucn -••on -.ne r-'i't stancccint, out 'rem 3ur
i ivolvemen- • -i --irVjencng foreign gove-nrne-it of-'cia's to assist tne
■nission. A -ina-ng «as prepared tne next :ay. "he -'noing was clearea
wi tn tne Director wno zalied McFarlane ana Don ^egan to ascertain that
indeed this nad Presidential approval ano to get assurances tnat a
rinaing .voula be so s'gned. After repeated calls to 'JSC personnel on
n Novemoer ana during the week of I Decemcer continuously receiving
'eassurances of tne President's intent to sign the Finding, <«e were
noti-ied on 5 Decemper tnat indeed tne Finaing was signed. The President
directed us not to inform Congress for tne reasons of the safety ina
secure release of tne lostages until ne so directed.
\m\ K^iinpn
167
UNCUSSIFie
I 0394
4. (C
personal 1
■25. November. | he ^n.assador ^g^
to taU to the Oir,ctorTnT^l"l]',tl,',f'^^^ like
cable to the Ambassador assurtnq iim th!; rh. '"P°"". ' -"eieased a
^riefed on by the OCM was ini a^eTby the at Snlt'^^" ''f \^' '^"^ '''"
sjgqesnnqitwould not be wise to^rL.n? ^ '^^^ Security Council but
get^iillHapproval.) "^'"^^ •° '""ctivate our request to
Jo.in .J. Mc'-lahon
UNCLASSIFIED
168
mmtfm
C 5 7/5
'florae <~>rt^^
os-f^fi^f^S^s.-
C/EUR
ACTION
Partially Declassified/Released on lO^&S 88
undei provisions o( E.O 12356
by K Johnson, National Security Council
.iUaJECT: MSC-RtQUEST
REF:
1. ACTION REQUESTED: FLASH RESPONSE SOONEST TO REF AND
FOLLOWING.
3.
AND DE
CHANNEL)
^IIhet UITH AHR .^^^^
:7Invoked. Vll^B quite \Wi
FIRST FLIGHT CA«
ARANCE BEEjRIHAN^
ffl^TATE^EDTOrt
lOLL
partSi
s^Bd
2
ALSO a. _ ,
RECEIVED. FACT FIRST FLIGHT CA«
NOT REQUEST CLE]
PLANE'S CARGO.
TELEX mw CARRl
GROUND CONTROLLERS -HE WAS CARRYING
CARRIED THE CAN ON THIS
«NT (DErtARCHE WILL' NOT B
IS THAT
CYNIC!!
THAT
I.. BOTTOn LINE
ncupi nPPD i 1 ITTLF
nATTER.
subsequent to
planes follow^revkal procedures
and that they 00 not shuttle fro
planes must not come directly fro
and pick up othe,
JIBM|at
530M
STIL
UT OUR
URS. AMBASSADOR WAS '
LTI EIE FLIGH T PLANS
fROM^BHBAND Dior .^~'
tiMiTsToRTES jkBout_;v -
"INDUSTRY SPARE PARTS."
AND THE PILOT TOLD
EQUIPMENT.
T. TO INVOLVE ambassador'
ED OTHER THAN IN THIS
TO ASSIST BUT HAS
RACTION WITH THEM ON THE
LD PROCEED
ALSO INSISTS THAT
ERFL IfiHT CLEARANCI .
NOTEDflBBHHIH
THEY SHOTJnrTuRNWEsT
"OULD BE NO T Tn imi \?r
S. ANC
AIRCRAFT.
>AME
MATTER REQUIRING CLARIFICATION IS THE QUESTION
HAS IMPRESSION FROM PAPERS FILFD BY- CARRIfR T
E UTILIZED AND SHUTTLE FROM^IHH^ THAT I
MPRESSION FROM EARLIER TRAFFIC. PLS CLARIFY.
6. THE SITUATION NOTED PARA 2 REF. I.E. -SECOND FLIGHT
THIS MORNING DID NOT EVENTUATE. WE NEED. HOWEVER. TO TRY
EXPLAIN AWAY THE MULTIPLE FILED FLIGHT PLANS., IS IT PROB,
THEY RCPRE StNT P LANNING PRIOR TO THE RESTRICTIONS PLACED
FLIGHTS ByHB if SO. WAS THERE A BREAKDOWN IN COMMUN I
charter carrier did not get the messa ge? thic is a pos
explanation^Hpresented T
r thTmessag
any EVENT, WE ARE GO I NG..TO_HAVE 10 TRY AjjD_iVriSrrXHE.
FPOINTS OUT THAT ATTEMPTS TO CIRCUMVENT THE GROUND RULES
(EITHER CONSCIOUSLY OR THROUGH POOR COOiiD I NAT ION) ilJNS_BJSK OF A
LEAK AND BAD PUBLICITY, HARMFUL MORE TO U.S. THAN
C//A/^/f'
r/c:
EVlE>tD FOR «a£AS£
19 APR na?
/j»/-
r-rr-
3 ^76
21428
Non Relevant
•jnding Pursuant to«SecMon 662 of the Foreign
Assistance Act of 196MiBi8 Amended, Concerning
Operations Dndertakenljpi^jthe Central Intelligence
Agency in Foreign Co<
Intended Solely fort'
Collection
!s, Other Than Those
rpose of Intelligence
5305
1 have been briefed o njt JBjg efforts being made by private
parties to obtain the J^s^^^sB? Americans held hostage in
the Middle East, and hereb^^gBofa that the following operations
in foreign countries (inclu^^f«il support necessary to
such operations) are important to the national security of
the United States. Because of the extreme sensitivity of
these operations, in the exercise of the President's consti-
tutional authorities, I direct the Director of Central
Intelligence not to brief the Congress of the United States,
as provided for in Section 501 of the National Security Act
of 1947, as amended, until such time as I may direct otherwise.
SCOPE
Hostage Rescu^
Middle East
Partially Oeclassified/Reltased on lOrcSBj^
under provisions o1 E 12356
K Johnson, National Security Council
DESCRIPTION
L. ■-: •l ^ \J .
The provision of ass
Central Intelligence
private parties in
obtain the releast
held hostage in tt
Such assistance ik
provision of traV.sp'drtation,
corjnunicat ions , and other necessary
support. As part of these efforts
certain foreign r.ateriel and r.ur.itior.
may be provided to the Cover r-ent
include the
l.<J».
170
II
f-»L
Jf?
Of Iran which i, t,).:„„ ,^ r
facilitate the r'el^i^^of ^^ ^^^
American hostages! ****
All prior actions tav-n k „
Governn,ent offlJ^S i" ^ "c^'
of this effort ar*h-w^"''**'«""<=e
" «re hereby ratified.
^252
Date:
UNCI mm
a, uty ^\ ^o
Tindinq Purtuant to Section 662 of
The Foreign Assistance Act of 1961
. - As Amended, Concerning Operations
Undertaken by the Central Intelligence
Agency in Foreign Countries, Other Than
Tho se Intended Solely for the Purpo"se~
of Intelligence Collection
f\ne
I hereby find that the following operation in a foreign
covintry (including all support necessary to such operation) is
important to the national security of the United States, and due
to ^ts extreme sensitivity and security risks, I determine it is
essential to lirait prior notice, and direct the Director of
Central Intelligence to refrain from reporting this Finding to
the Congress as provided in Section 501 of the National Security
Act of ,J.947, as amended, until I otherwise direct.
SCOPE
Iran
§ i =■
— -" t/i
= _^ 3
DESCRIPTION
Assist selected friendly foreign liaison services,
third countries and third parties which have
established relationships with Iranian elements,
groups, and individuals sympathetic to U.S. Government
interests and which do not conduct or support terrorist
actions directed against U.S. persons, property or
interests, for the pbrpose of: (l) establishing a more
moderate government In Iran, <2) obtaining from them
significant intelligbnce not otherwise obtainable, to
determine the current Iranian Government's intentions
with respect to its rcighbors and with respect to
terrorist acts, and )(3) furthering the release of the
American hostages held in Beirut and preventing
additional terrorist acts by these groups. Provide
funds, intelligence,, counter-intelligence, training,
guidance and communications and other necessary
assistance to these Elements, groups, individuals,
liaison services and third countries in support of
these activities.
The USG will act to facilitate efforts by third parties
and third countries to establish contact with moderate
elements within and outside the Government of Iran by
providing these elements with arms, equipment and
related materiel in order to enhance the /:redibil ity of
these elements in their effort to achieve « more.
pro-U.S. government in Iran by demonstrating their
ability to obtain requisite resources tp defend their
country against Iraq and intervention
Union. This support will be disconti
Government learns that these elements
their goals of moderating their gove
appropriated the aateriei-fo r pu rpos
provided by this Finding.
the Soviet
ied if\the U.S.
^ave abandoned
nent anh
other rh»n tlrrr
53C6)
The White House
Washington, D.C.
Date January 17,
C//V nsu^
1986
T
tlNCffi!
\
OGCR Ts oeoivee
Copy 1
173
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
16
19
20
21
22
23
CANTOR
MILTON
t^wSSS^f
D
DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. GODARD
Thursday, May 21, 1987
U.S. House of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington, D. C.
The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 3:10 p.m.,
B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, Terry Smiljanich
presiding.
Present: Tim Traylor, on behalf of the House
Select Committee.
Terry Smiljanich, on behalf of the Senate Select
Committee.
Also present: George Taft, Legal Division,
Department of State
;>-. r- /^.
^y=^
and : r provisior.; cf 3.O. 123SJ
by IX^ lo, National Security Ceunc=
9^<^?,
^^^mm
174
UN^JSi^ED
I CONTENTS
2
3 DEPOSITION OF ; PAGE
4 Ronald D. Godard
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
'"'^issglfi)
175
UNGfESSSffftD
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
jjjlll Dlllllflril"-'-- jl* on
und«i
MR. SMILJANICH: I understand that this reporter
is a notary public in the State of Maryland. I have no
objection to this reporter administering an oath for
purposes of this deposition, and have no objection to the
form of the oath.
Whereupon,
RONALD D. GODARD
was called as a witness and, after having been first duly
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE SENATE SELECT
COMMITTEE
BY MR. SMILJANICH:
Q State your name, please.
A My name is Ronald Duant Godard.
Q Mr. Godard, you know my name is Terry
Smiljanich. I am here to take a deposition on behalf
of the Senate Select Committee on the Iran-contra matter.
Also with us is Tim Traylor, who represents the House
Select Committee on the same matter.
I just want to ask you some very brief, general
questions concerning your knowledge about certain matters.
If there is anything I ask you or if you don't understand
my question, please let me know that you don't understand
and I will be happy to rephrase my question.
A Very good .
i^^ /yxf-:/'?
provisions oi E.O. 123S6
/fey D. Sii I o. National Security Council
UNQU^^ED
176
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN(SlfS8inED
' Q You are currently Deputy Director for Central
2 American Affairs in the Bureau of Inter-American Affairs?
3 A That's correct.
* Q Department of State?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q How long have you held that position?
7 A I have held that position since July 8, 1985.
8 Q What are your duties as Deputy Director?
9 A As Deputy Director, I am in charge of bilateral
10 relations with Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Honduras. I
11 have also been involved in regional affairs in one
12 capacity or another, and duties as assigned to me by the
13 Director of the office.
14 Q Is there currently a Director of the office?
15 A The Director is currently on TDY assignment,
16 temporary assignment to San Jose, Costa Rica, as charge.
j7 Q That is Rick Melton?
18 A Richard H. Melton.
]g Q Who does he report to, when he was Director?
A Richard Melton reports directly to the Deputy
Assistant Secretary in charge of Central American Affairs,
and ultimately, of course, to the Assistant Secretary in
the ARA Bureau.
Q And William Walker is the Deputy Assistant
Secretary whom he reports to?
"NQWl^S^^'ED
177
UN^S(SSPtD
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A That's correct.
Q There is an organization or group called the
Restricted Inter-Agency Group that has been in existence
for some time, which deals with Central American policy
or Latin American policy also, is that correct? '
A That's correct, known by various names.
Q Let's start off with when you first ccime in
July of 1985. What organizational structure was in
existence in terms of an inter-agency panel or group?
A Here let me stress that I did not attend
RIG meetings, but what did exist at that time as an
inter-agency coordinating body was what was called the
RIG for Central America. It was a restricted inter-agency
group.
After the passage of the humanitarian assistance
legislation, its implementation beginning in I guess it
was October of 1985, there was a more formal inter-agency
group created that was then supervised by a senior
inter-agency group, and that structure was set down, as
I recall, in an executive order.
Q Was the inter-agency group that was formed
or created in October of 1985 also referred to as a
restricted inter-agency group, a RIG?
A The terms are used sort of interchangeably,
and quite frankly there is also a restricted inter-agency
UNQiraHED
178
UNd^sMED
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
group, a RIG for Latin America, which is a much broader,
much larger group, and as I understand the term, and I
did not go to either body, I stress again, to their
deliberations, the Restricted Inter-Agency Group was a
much broader organization, whereas the IG, as I knew it,
was limited to representatives from four or five agencies.
Q Let's start with the RIG, the larger group.
When the larger group, when the RIG dealt with Central
American matters as opposed to South American, what
groups -- I understand you did not attend the meetings,
but you must have had some understanding of the fact that
such an organizationkxisted and who was attending.
A Yes.
Q Who, to your knowledge, were the various groups
and people who were represented at the large RIG?
A At the large RIG?
Q Yes.
A For Central America?
Q Yes.
A There I do not think of it in terms of being
a large RIG. This is a smaller group.
Q Tell me who you --
A The agency representatives, insofar as I know,
were DoD, Nestor Sanchez, for the Central Intelligence
Agency^^^^^^^^H for NSC Ollie North, and Ray Burfthart
UNCUSSI^ED
179
21
22
23
24
25
uiSiffiSTnED
1 also often attended from NSC. Elliott Abrams, and then
2 there was a representative from the Joint Chiefs of Staff,
3 and I don't know who that was. It has changed now.
4 Q Was there, to your knowledge, a smaller working
5 group which dealt specifically with the contras?
6 A There were working groups derived from the
7 inter-agency group that got together on an informal basis
C
8 to discuss specific problems, as desirbed by the partici-
9 pants, and as directed by Elliott Abrams.
10 Q Specifically, I realize this may not have been
jj a formal organization, but was there a smaller working
12 group, inter-agency group, dealing with matters involving
13 the Nicaraguan resistance, that was more tightly held, the
14 information within that group more tightly held than the
15 larger formal RIG, and composed primarily of Elliott
Abrams ,^^^^^^^^V and Ollie North?
A I don't know if it had an organic identity as
such, but those three individuals certainly got tghether
16
17
ie
l- and discussed issues regarding democratic resistance
^Q Q With approximately what frequency, to your
knowledge, did that group get together to discuss the
Nicaraguan resistance?
A Here I would have to estimate.
Q I understand.
A I just don't know from my own knowledge. I
(JNCySi^PED
180
UN^^IgPI^D
8
' would say once a week perhaps.
2 Q Was that group known by any particular name?
3 Did people refer to it as something that would identify
* it in your mind as those three particular people dealing
5 with that matter?
* A It could easily have been known as a specific
7 group by other people. I did not think of it in those
8 terms myself, since I was aware that there were other
9 participants in the formal RIG or IG structure.
10 Q Did you ever hear of the folks referred to
11 as a RIG- let or mini-RIG, anything like that?
12 A I have heard those terms. I can't remember
13 now when I first started hearing them, but I don't
14 remember it in reference to those three people.
15 Q But you did have an understanding that these
16 three people would on an informal basis meet approximately
i'r>a
17 once a week to discuss matters involv«»the Nicaraguan
18 resistance in Central America?
19 A Yes, once a week, once every two weeks,
20 whatever as necessary. T
21 . Q And this is during what period of time?
22 A Well, certainly from the beginning when I
23 first ccune to Washington in July of 1985 through the
2^ beginoin? of the humanitarian assistance program, and
-_ after that until the middle of last year anyway.
wNCM^^pa
181
10
14
15
16
17
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN@3(SSff^D
1 Q Until the summer?
2 A That's right. _ ■' -• -.
3 Q Early «yil oi.1^6?
4 A Yes.
5 Q Since then, since the fall of 1986, is there
6 in fact a formal organization set up to deal specifically
7 vith the Nicaraguan situation?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q That im caimA the JG-H? ^ -:^.^ .... .
A ^S^Nf and^It J;^supervi««d or its activities
11 are reviewed by "SeiSbr inter-agency group, which is
12 chaired by Mr. Armacost.
j3 Q The RIG and the smaller working group of the
RIG were chaired by Elliott Abrams, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q When these groups formed policies or made
decisions, how were you informed of the actions of these
.p groups?
A I was indirectly given instructions. My
boss. Rick Melton, is not a participant ordinarily. I
suppose occasionally he might have been invited to
meetings, and indeed did occasionally, was invited to
meetings. That happened on an informal basis as well.
Depending on the issues to be discussed others would be
invited, and Rick would come back and there would be
""•MJSPB
182
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN^iSSfl^D
10
1 taskings or instructions for our office to carry out, to
2 produce papers or whatever, so that is how I would get
3 instructions.
4 Q When you started as Deputy Director for Central
5 American Affairs, what has come to be known as the Boland
6 amendment, the second Boland amendment, which provided for
7 a complete cut-off of all U.S. aid to the Nicaraguan
8 resistance was in effect in July of 1985 when you accepted
g your position, is that correct?
^0 A As far as I know, it was.
]] Q Were you given anything in the way of guidelines
^2 or instructions as to permissible or non-permissible
j3 activities in light of that legislation?
A You mean upon my arrival in Washington and
taking up my duties?
Q Right.
A No, I was not given any specific instructions.
I did have some consciousness from my previous assign-
ment that there was a Boland amendment and that there
were restrictions on what Government agencies could do.
Q Did you at some point ask legal counsel at
State Department a question concerning what your actions
should be in light of the Boland amendment?
A At one point I recall asking for an inter-
pretation of the Boland amendment, telling me what it
UNeiiftSiSWED
183
3
4
5
6
23
24
25
UN^fSSflTED
11
' actually provided, and I think "L" did provide or did
* produce a docximent which sort of gave the outlines of
the Boland amendment.
Q Had anything in particular raised this question
for you?
A I don't recall.
^ Q Do you remember who provided the —
8 A Peter Olsen would have been the one that I
9 approached on it.
10 Q You told us at our interview several weeks ago
11 about the time in which you, you meaning your organization,
12 were getting calls from people wanting to know where
13 they could contribute.
14 A Yes.
15 Q When they could contribute money to the contras ,
16 and where they could do this, and that you had a question
17 about how you should handle that, and you went to Peter
18 Olsen.
19 A Correct.
20 Q To get some guidance. Is that what you are
21 talking about?
22 A No. That is not exactly what I am talking
about. We did, of course, seek, in handling this
correspondence, to get cleared through "L" a letter
that was acceptable in terms of the law, but questions
UNCLASSIRED
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
184
SECRET
12
1 about the Boland amendment came up in other contexts as
2 well, and I simply can't remember what the instance was
3 that prompted me to request that information.
4 Q Do you recall when this was?
5 A No.
6 Q Could you relate it to when you started your
7 duties?
8 A Not really. It could have been much later
9 than that. I remember being very confused at one point
JO as to whether the Boland amendment, if it had an ending
J J point, and I think that was one thing that concerned me,
12 because there were two schools of thought. People were
13 saying various things, that it was still in effect, and
14 others that it was not, and I think that was one of my
15 specific questions of Peter Olsen.
jg Q Your confusion arose from the fact that there
was on one hand a Boland amendment cut-off. On the other
hand, there was new legislation authorizing $27 million
in humanitarian aid?
A That's right.
Q And your question was, well, does that super-
sede Boland?
A That's right.
Q Does that mean the original cut-off was over
with or not?
(JN(%ftS$JfKD
185
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
6
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UI^^YFIED
13
A That's correct, and there were people who —
yes, there were both schools of thought, as I recall.
Q Can you recall anything specific that was
decided that you were told by the very small working
group involving the contras composed of Abrans , North
anc
<?ere you ever told that this particular group
had come up with any decision that youl^ere supposed to
implement?
A What Rick would come back with for me were
instructions to do things in the way of getting information
+
from our embassies, our instrucing our ambassadors to go
in and do representations to the governments they were
accredited to. I'm sure there must have been instances
when he came back and said it has been decided, but his
instructions came from Elliott. It was not conveyed
as an IG decision per se. He worked for Elliott and he
came back, Elliott wants this, Elliott wants that.
Q Prior to the time it becaune a matter of some
public discussion, were you ever apprised of the fact
that there was some type of a secret airfield in|
:hat was built by some people, to be used for
contra resupply?
A I heard rumors about it being ii
and quite frankly I confused it with another
airfield that I was aware ofj
liN^^S^ED
186
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
I had thought that was
what people were talking about. I subsequently discovered
relatively recently that it was something else.
Q Do vou recall who was discussing it and what
they were spying when you had this confusion about what
they were talking about?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand
cally recall who told me this.
Q You were aware, were you not, throughout the
latter part of 1985 and through 1986 that Ollie North
was very active in connection with matters in Central
America involving the Nicaraguan resistance?
A Sure.
Q That was pretty well known, wasn't it?
A Sure .
Q What view did you have of it? In other words,
what was your impression of what Colonel North was
specificallT^^daing in Cent^S" America, and _I would assume
that you would have some curiosity about it, being the
Deputy Director for Central American Affairs. What did
you know about it, or hear about it?
A I heard rximors. I was not clear that there
UNCtAS^^D
187
16
17
18
19
20
22
23
24
25
UNgSWiED
15
1 was illegal activity going on, but the rumors were in
2 that context.
3 As I recall, there were press stories as well
4 during that period on what the NSC was about in the area
5 of private contacts, and that is about it. I did not
6 probe deeper than that.
7 Q You mentioned press reports. In August of 1985,
8 The New York Times ran a story which specifically named
9 Ollie North as the White House staff person who was
JO coordinating activities involving the contras ' military
It efforts in Central America, allegedly in violation of
\2 existing statutes, and in faci the Managua newspapers
j3 picked it up, Izvestia ran an article on Ollie North, so
t4 there was a lot of press focus on North in August of
j5 1985,
Did you, in response to any of that, do any
looking into the situation to try to find out whether
there was anything behind these allegations?
A No, I did not.
Q Do you know if anyone else did at State
«. Department?
A No, I do not.
Q Was there a reason why you didn't look into
it? Were you not curious as to whether or not — go
ahead. Was there a reason why not?
UNCWgSJBfB
188
21
22
UN^S(^flKED
16
' A I was very curious but it really wasn't our
2 responsibility to do that, insofar as I interpreted my
3 job. Perhaps if there was illegality, it was for the
* law enforcement agencies to look into.
5 Q You mentioned some of the rumors surrounding
6 Colonel North's activities involved the question of
7 legality. What specifically did you hear about that?
8 A Well, fund raising, talk about fund raising.
9 Mostly that, that he was involved with a private network
10 of raising money, and he was obviously in contact with
11 resistance leaders frequently as well.
12 Q How did you know that?
13 A Hearsay, people told me he was.
14 Q . Throughout the latter part of 198 5 and the
15 first part of 1986 there was a large and understandably
16 cocerted effort within the bureau to try to get new
17 legislation passed authorizing aid to the Nicaraguan
18 resistance. Were you a part of that legislative effort?
)g I know that, for example, Jim Michel was very
20 involved with it, and other people. Was that one of
your tasks?
A Very much so, yes.
22 Q Diiring that time period, though, what was
2^ your understanding as to how the contras were being
«- supplied or provided during this period where they had
UNI^JtA^SJIfJED
189
14
15
16
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UN(^%l§fl%D
17
1 no aid coming to them?
2 A Well, it is my understanding that they had
3 private sources of funding. I didn't know who the
4 suppliers were per se . At a time I had been in Costa
5 Rica I had heard mention** frequently of foreign countries
6 that were donors to the resistance. I had also heard
7 that there were American citizens who were contributing
8 to them.
9 As we went into the arrangements for the
10 humanitarian assistance program, we were also thinking as
11 we approached that that we were building on an existing
12 supply network. By that I mean the Nicaraguan humanitarian
13 assistance program, for instance, was not going to have to
create something out of whole cloth so far as delivering
those supplies, that there was an existing network for
getting stuff to them, which simplified the task, we
.J thought.
Q In other words, it was your understanding that
the Nicaraguan resistance had its own logistics system —
A That's correct.
Q — in place, which the humanitarian aid program
could make use of, in getting the humanitarian aid to
the resistance? ^-=.-
A Right. In other words, we would simply deliver
it to them stateside and then they could take care of
UNQMii;$|fHED
190
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
u»(K^$ilFiED
18
1 getting it where it was supposed to go.
2 Q When the humanitarian aid program actually got
3 off the ground, did you discover that in fact it wasn't
4 the casef^that they had a very well-organized logistics
5 system to handle this?
6 A At one point I remember talking about this with
7 Bob Duemling, who was the director of the program, and he
8 discovered as he worked along with the program that this
9 logistical network which he thought when he went into the
\Q program was much less than what he had hoped.
]f Q Did you know whether or not Ollie North had
12 anything to do with the logistics system?
■3 A I suspected that he did, but I don't know
that.
Q What was the basis of your suspicion?
A The news reports, for one thing.
Q Anything else?
A Just rumors .
Q Did he ever talk to you about any of those
matters? ... ..^
A No.
Q Did you have very maiiy meetings one-on-one
with Colonel North? ■#& ,. ^--^jy^rfa^ ~ ■•'■■^-,.
A Ran into him in the hall»=5whea_l^%?as coming
to meetings in the front office of the bureau, but other
UH^MSSfiED
191
UNSEIiSlfif^ED
19
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
than that, no.
Q -You mean"ineetings where he^as going to go in
and talk to Q^iott Abreuns?
A That's correct.
Q Bdt did you ever participate iitany one-on-one
meetings just between you and Ollle North ^^ discuss
anything? ' ""3--
A There was one pne-on-one meeting; this was in
San Jose, Cos ta_jRica, before I even )«*H^wTio Ollie
North was, really^ He was down there, it must have been
during my firsts*- I just don't recall, 'it was when
Ambassador Windsor was there, so it wasn't my first
ambassadoe^it was my second ambassador, and it would
have been probably in 1984 where he was in town." He
sought me out to chat a little bit about the ambassador
actualj^i^anA^i^ was'aSoot a five- or ten-minute-
conversa^tiefel^ - " -^
Q Do you irecall whiT i t was about?"
A He was worried
Q Were you involved at all in any of the sertBB
of meetings tha^»ere h»ld with General Singlaub
concerning a trip he was going to take |
^^^^^^^^Hin the spring of
UNGtASSil^ED
192
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UNIE^PIED
20
1 A I wasn't involved in those.
2 Q You didn't ait in on any of the nftetings?
3 A No. - - _ '' !■-: ^r-T
4 Q In which Assistant Secretary Abrams or sometimes
5 Rick Melton met with General SinglauB?
6 1 A No. I was aware at least of one of the meetings
7 that Singlaub was going to meet with Rick. I was not
8 aware of the contents of the meetings until after the
9 fact.
\0 Q When General Singlaub went^^^^^^^^B there
11 were then some fund communications back and forth from
12 there. While he wa^^^^^H^^H were you aware of the
13 fact that General Singlaub was ^^^^^^^| specif ically
14 trying to get some private solicitations for the contras?
15 A I recall, I seem to recall, and here let me
15 tell you that after when I really became aware of what
j7 happened in those meetings was when I was asked by the
bureau to collect some documents for you people, as a
matter of fact, I think.
Q So you have seen the series of memos?
A That is when Rick turned over to me the six
memoranda and then I collected them for the rest of the
bureau and turned them in, but I seem to recall that I
was aware that Rick was expecting a call from Singlaub
but I did not know the content of
S^-7/0 oi'il
UN^A^^^^IED
193
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UI^^SISffl^D
21
what they wanted to talk about.
Q There is at this point a bit of discrepancy
in who can remember what about that. Let me tell you
what the discrepancy is and then see if you can come down
on one side or the other and tell me if you have any
information about it.
On the one hand, there is the allegation that
General Singlaub thought that he had the okay to make
these approaches, and that then he got a phone call while
he was over there telling him "Don't do it, we have changed
our mind . "
The other side of the story is that, no, he
was never told that it was authorized, and he called
from there and was then finally, you know, it was
finally too late to put him off anymore. He had to be
told, "We're sorry, but we're not going to give you the
signal that you want us to give to the foreign govern-
ment."
Do you have any information one way or the
other as to which of those two is more accurate?
A No, nothing beyond the memoranda that I
read.
MR. SMILJANICH: I have no more questions.
UNfilAfiSfflED
R9.7in n-8«-8
194
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UMCIfiSSFIED
22
1 EXAMINATION BY THE HOUSE SELECT
2 COMMITTEE
3 BY MR. TRAYLOR:
4 Q I have a couple of questions to cover some
5 ground that Terry covered already.
6 You stated that you did not attend the RIG
7 or the IG meetings. Did Bill Walker ever give you read-
8 outs on the meetings that he attended?
9 A Yes, he did. I said earlier that it was Rick,
JO but sometimes Rick and I would together go up and Bill
fl could give us a read-out. I don't remember ever getting
j2 a read-out from Elliott directly, and there would be
j3 instances I 'm sure when Rick was gone for one reason or
j4 another, when Bill would just call me up by myself to
give me a read-out.
Q Could you give an example of what kind of a
read-out Walker or Melton would give you?
A If Rick were there to actually give a direct
read-out on what went on — as I say, he didn't always
attend the RIG or the IG meetings; he may occasionally
have gone to those — it would be there was a RIG or an
IG meeting this afternoon, and we have got some things
to do. We need to get a teible <3ut^^^^^^^^^^^H find
out what they know about this incident. Elliott needs
some more information on such and such a thing. We have
UHCUSmiED
195
UlTS^J^Tk'lED
23
I
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
IB
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
got to telL^^^^^^^^^^B to be careful about such and
such a thing or we have got to find out from them such
and such information.
Q From these read-outs or briefings that were
given to you, did you ever have the impression or belief
that these RIG meetings they were discussing involved
the contra resupply operation?
A No. Well, of course, until we were doing
humanitarian assistance.
Q Of course.
A Which was a major item on the agenda.
Q Lethal aid?
A Yes.
Q Regarding the secret air stripl
you said you heard veiled references there was this strip,
and you said you couldn't recall. This issue is an
important one to us, to this investigation, to know the
extent of the knowledge and when it was first known.
I take it these rumors , from what you said
earlier, that you possibly heard themj
A Yes.
Q From people
A Yes,
After you had assumed your current job?
UNfilA&Sl^lED
196
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
It
12
13
14
15
16
17
16
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Would it be fair to say that it is likely,
then, that you learned about this air strip in
of 1986?
UN£iASSJf!ED
197
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
)8
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
vmmiio
25
Q Would it also be fair to say that it is possible
that you learned iti
A Possible, and as I say, it just didn't register
with me,r
Q I would like to talk a little bit about the~
bad blood between the past I guess and now between ARA
and INR.
A Yes.
Q And your knowledge of that, and the extent of
the problem if you could.
A Yes. My previous ambassador, my first
ambassador was Frank McNeil, who came to be the Deputy
Director of INR. I maintain contact with Frank, and
have talked to him frequently really during the period
when this bad blood was supposed to exist. Frank never
spoke directly to the problem with me. I heard from
other people that there were disagreements between Elliott
and Frank, the feeling being that the analysis was wrong
and was skewed for ideological reasons .
I have seen the same reports that were objected
to by my front office, but I do not have direct knowledge
of the feud between the two personalities involving
Elliott and Frank McNeil. I only heard of it from
third parties, and I have heard that the role of INR
UNGUIS&IF4ED
198
UN6EKSSE1ED
26
end enun
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
to
t1
12
13
14
15
16
17
IB
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
as a counselor or adviser to ARA was circumvented. They
were shut out of things because of this disagreement.
I have no feel for how extensive INR's role
in that regard was with ARA before, because I wasn't
there. It was certainly my impression since I arrived
that INR was not really in the confidence of my front
office.
MR. TRAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Godard . I have
no other questions.
MR. SMILJANICH: Nothing further.
(Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the deposition waS
adjourned.)
mmm
199
8TKN0GRAPHIC lONUm
UarrrtoMl ud UimAM
Not for Qaotatka or
Dvpttcmtfoa
•j' v: t '.,» ^V.■'. ■-•..-; . >• a ' I", t^: :•«.■:'
T
^^^USS/f/ED
Mmm
Coamittee Hearing!
^/3I
V3, HOUSE OF BEPRESENTATIVES
under provisions 0( £ 1
PartaUy Declassified/Released on_
under provisions o( £ 12356
by K Johnson. Natonal S«cunty Council
OVFICI OF THE CLXSK
OAm a< OOdal Rcpartaa
'»-^-^,
COP©
201
HAnZ- HIR2S3000
1
2
3
14
5
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
lit
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
PAGE
RPTS DINKEL
DCMH STEVENS
DEPOSITION or ROY S. GODSON
Thursday, Saptftnbar 10, 1987
Housa oi Rapresentativfts ,
Salact Connittaa to Invastlgata
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington. D.C.
Tha salact committaa nat. pursuant to call, at 9=30 a.m.,
in Room B-336, Rayburn Housa Offica Building, Thomas Fryman
[Staff Counsal to tha Housa Salact Committaa] presiding.
Present: On behalf of tha Housa Select Committee: Thomas
rryman. Staff Counsel; Kenneth R. Buck, Assistant Minority
Counsel; Spencer Oliver, Associate Counsel; ajH Tom
CiehansKi, Investigator .ti»w<' fi^/wf ■,^-to^..-ri^^^*^ (^^""t***"^ <-*<--w-e'-
On bahalf of tha Senate Salact Committee: Thomas HcGough,
Senate Staff Counsel ^n d Bu t t Hamm e n d , Inves llaalUL .
On bahalf of tha Witness: Earl Silbart, Esquire.
PaflWIy Oec*i*M»teeas«l on jy^5Ll8
under pr^Bbns 01 E 12356
tiy K Johnson. National Sacunty CouKll
202
KkHE-
23
2K
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
(40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
HIR253000
PAGE
Whttzaupon>
ROY S. GODSON
was callad for as a witn«ss and, aitar having b«en duly
suoin, was axaninad and tastliiad as follows:
MR. SILBERT^ Hy nana is Eazl Silbazt. I an acting
in behalf of tha witnass, Roy Godson.
I would lika to Introduca and naka a matter of tha
record at the outsat thraa docuaants . First is a latter
fron na addressed to the Honorable Congressman Lea H.
Hamilton, attention of John Nields and Mr. Thomas Fryman.
That was a letter dated September 8, 1987, and related to my
understanding of the scope of tha deposition of Hr . Godson.
And briefly summarized, it simply states my understanding
the relate t c ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 3 r i to
Switzerland, but that particularly within the category of
questions relating to Switzerland, I wanted to be sure that
tha questions were germane to the appropriate subject matter
of this committee, that is, within the scope of the mandate
of this committee.
And In respect to that, I relied in part and
attached to the latter a document that I would like marked
as Godson Exhibit number 2, or however you handle documents
such as this, a Washington Report of Congressman Lee
Hamilton dated August 9, 1987, in whioh he set fo^^/the
203
NAME
148
49
50
51
52
53
5U
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
6(4
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
HIR2S3000
UNWSSiFlEO
PAGE
policies that wera being investigated by this Select
Coaaittee .
The third document is a letter that X received in
response fpfc™ Hr . Fryman dated September 9, 1987, in which
he acknowledged receipt of my letter dated September 8,
stated that he did not agree with some of the statements
about either the prior interview of Mr. Godson to uhich
reference was made in my letter or about our discussion of
the scope of today's deposition.
And together with his letter, Hr . Fryman attached a
copy of the House Resolution 12 establishing the House
Select Committee.
I would simply state for the record, Hr . Fryman,
that my recollection is unequivocal, it doesn't mean I am
saying your recollection is wrong, my recollection is very
clear as to what I understood the scope of the deposition to
be and it was. that in mind yth osaj only jsub jects on which X
prepared Hr . Godson for his deposition today.
In particularly since he is under oath, I would
)
feel very much remiss in proceeding, almost guilty of
■alpractlce, if X permitted him to go forward and respond to
quMstions under oath on subject matters for which he was not
prepaxad by counsel.
So I hope that tha questioning can be confined to
those two areas as my recollection is clear.
UNCLASSflED
204
KANE:
73
7U
75
76
11
78
79
80
81
82
83
8>4
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
BSiFIEB .
HIR253000 UBiyLrs'iJSWSB ll»*«' V\QZ 4
MR. FRYMAH: What would you like to mark as an
exhibit, Hr . Silbert, the two letters?
HR. SILBERT: Yes.
MR. FRYMAN: And Congressman Hamilton's report?
MR. SILBERT: if you want to have the House
Resolution as a further eKhibit, I have no objection.
MR. FRYMAN: I don't think that is necessary. That
is part of the record of this committee.
If we would mark as Godson Deposition Exhibit 1 for
identification. I think it appropriate to mark all of these
documents as one exhibit, Mr. Silbert.
MR. SILBERT: That is fine.
MR. FRYMAN: The two letters and the Washington
Report from Congressman Hamilton that Mr. Silbert
identified .
After further discussion between Mr. Silbert and
roe, we have decided that the best way to proceed is to mark
his letter of September 8, 1987, Deposition Exhibit 1A; my
letter of September 9, 1987, Deposition Exhibit IB; and the
Washington Report of Congressman Hamilton, dated August 19,
1987, Deposition Exhibit 1C.
[Deposition Exhibits 1A, IB, and 1C were marked for
identification. 1
MR. SILBERT: The only other matter I wish to put
on the record at this time is the fact that your letter
in
WJ5.9
205
UNCUSSIREI
NAME: HIX253000 VllVkliW^ifi kimiJ' PAGE 5
98 referred to this deposition being classified as top secret.
99 I 3ust wish to put on the record and make it clear that I,
100 as counsel for Mr. Godson, Professor Godson, have no
10 1 clearances of any nature whatsoever to my knowledge,
102 certainly none so far as I am aware with respect to this
103 proceeding. I don't think I have any.
10M . And, as a result of that, in the course of ray
105 representation of Professor Godson, I have never discussed
106 with him any material that I thought was classified and
107 certainly as far as I know he has advised me he has never
108 told ne anything or discussed with me anything he considered
109 classified because he was aware that I did not have any
1 10 clearances .
H 1 I only state that as regard any questions that
112 might relate to a classified area, since I would never have
113 had a chance to prepare Kr . Godson as his counsel to respond
11U to inquiries on such questions,
ns MR. FRYHAK! Hr . Silbert. I was going to say that I
116 had three preliminary remarks to make, and you have
117 anticipated the first one.
118 HR. SILBERT: very well.
119 HR. rRYMAH: On the subject of classification of the
120 deposition. I did indicate in my letter to you that this
12 1 deposition and the transcript of the deposition would be
122 classified top secret. I did that in response to what I
IINCUSSf
aL!
206
NAME:
123
12U
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
nu
135
136
137
138
139
mo
1U1
11*2
1lt3
1>44
IKS
1U6
1117
HIR2S3000
UNi
^ ^n^'qi:?!
]U\\J^Ji^ IL
PAGE
thought was a concern oi youzs about Hr . Godson testifying
with respect to the purpose of his fund raising in
connection with certain events in Nicaragua.
Prior to the comnencement of the deposition this
morning, you and I have discussed this matter and we have
concluded that it may not be necessary for the deposition to
be classified and we have agreed that we are commencing the
deposition on an unclassified basis.
If we reach the point that it appears that some of
the questions involve areas that may relate to classified
subjects, we have agreed that we will suspendjT the
questioning and we will then discuss how we should proceed.
MR. SILBERT: That is the reason —
HR. FRYHAK: The second comment I wanted to make is
in response to our comments about the areas of investigation
and our prior discussions and the prior interview of Kr .
Godson .
As I stated in my letter, I do not agree with some
of the statements in your letter. So far as I am concerned
the scope oi siuestloning today is governed by House
Resolution 12\/which I sent you a copy, but it seems to me
that there is no purpose to be served at this point with you
and I getting into a lawyer's argument back and forth, and I
will just let the record as far as I am concerned remain
with the exchange of letters between us.
UNCLASSIFIEO
207
ONCUSSIflEO
MAKE: HIR253000 W I 1 l#L.rEI il 1 1 1 Kl IM PAGE 7
148 Tha third point I wanted to roaka , howaver, is in
149 zasponsa toVour commant about your not baing able to prepare
150 Mr. Godson on any subjects other than the subjects that you
151 referred to in your letter.
'52 In your letter of September 8, you asked that I advise you
153 by the close of business on Wednesday, September 9, if I had
15i» any disagreement with your letter and my letter was sent to
155 your oiiica before the close of business yesterday.
156 So as far as I am concerned, you were on notice of
157 my position as to tha scope of this deposition prior to the
158 close of business yesterday, which was tha tine you asked to
159 be notified of my position, and so far as I am concerned,
160 the scope of the examination today is governed by the
161 subject matters sat forth in House Resolution 12.
162 MX. SILBERT: Ue just respectfully disagree on
163 that.
1614 HR. FRYMAN: Right.
165 EXAHINATIOM OK BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE
166 BY MR. FRYMAN:
167 2 Mr. Godson, would you state your full name for the
168 record, please?
169 A Roy S. Godson.
170 e In what city do you reside, Mr. Godson?
171 A Washington, D.C.
172 2 Where did you obtain your undergraduate degree?
Mmim
208
NAHE: HIR253000
UNCLASSIHED
PAGE
8
173
1714
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
18U
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
A rtiddleburg Collaga.
2 Is that in--
A Vermont.
Q What was youc field of study?
A Political science.
2 And you received a B.A. fion Hiddleburg?
A Correct.
2 What year was that?
A 196U.
2 Did you pursue graduate studies after receiving
your B . A . ?
A At Colunbia University.
2 Xn what field?
A International relations, national security.
2 Did you receive a further degree?
A An n. A . and a Ph. D.
2 What years did you receive those degrees?
A X can't renember exactly, but H.A. would be in the
late sixties, and Ph.D. in the early seventies.
2 Did you write a dissertation in connection with
your Ph.D.?
A I did.
e Hhat was the subject of your dissertation?
A The role of the Anerlcan labor moveaent in European
politics .
UNCUSWO
209
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE
KAIIE
198 2 Have you sarvad as a consultant to th« Kational
199 Sacurity Council?
200 A I hava .
20 1 Q Sinca whan hava you sarvad as consultant?
202 A 1982 to 1987.
203 2 You are no longer a consultant?
20U A That is correct.
205 2 When did you cease being a consultant?
206 A I think in July 1987.
207 2 Do you know the reason why you were originally
208 offered a position as a consultant to the HSC?
209 HR. SILBERT: Do you know the reason?
210 THE WITHESS' I think so.
211 BY MR. FRYMAN:
212 2 What do you believe to be the reason?
213 A I think the reason was because of ny study of
2 1M United States intelligence and its requirements for the
215 future.
216 8 Who told you that was the reason?
2 17 A I said I thought that was the reason, but I don't
2 18 recall a specific reason being given. But the person who
2 19 asked me to serve as consultant and who asked Judge Clark to
220 interview me was Kenneth DeGraiien ^Keid. who worked in
22 1 intelligence > who served in the Internal Directorate, and
Of
222 was subsequently Direct, of Intelligence Programs at NSC.
UNCLASSIHED
210
223
22(4
225
226
227
228
UNCLASSIFIED
NAME: HIR253000 IIIUI.I U.-^.^ll II II PAG£ 10
S Is it your understanding that Hr . DeGraiien Xeid
was 'tcss the person who initiated the discussions about your
becoming a consultant?
A Yes.
2 Do you know ii Willian Casey had any role in your
being appointed as consultant in the HSC?
llNClASSiFlM
211
NAME:
229
230
231
232
233
23<4
235
236
237
238
239
2U0
241
2U2
243
21414
2145
2>46
247
248
2U9
250
251
252
253
HIR253000
DCHN GLASSNAP
PCliSSinED
PAGE 11
A I don't know.
C Do you have any iniormation that indicates whether
he had such a lola?
A No.
2 Hou did you know Hr . De Graffenteid?
A In the lata 1970s, when I began the academic study
of intelligence, as a faculty raeaber, I got to meet many of
the staffers on the House and Senate Select Committees. Hr .
De Graffenteid was one.
B You kept in touch with him?
A I saw him and others with some frequency.
S Who do you understand made the decision to retain
you as a consultant in the National Security Council, if you
know?
A No, I don't know.
2 You don't know?
A No.
2 Did you talk with Judge Clark about becoming a
consultant?
A Yes, I did.
B At that time, was he the National Security Adviser?
A Hell, he was the National Security Adviser. Hy
understanding further is that the National Security Adviser
UNCUSSiFIED
212
NAME:
25U
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
26K
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
27«»
275
276
277
278
UNClASSiHED
HIR2S3000 IJIlVL-ltWWIl •*»"^ PAGE 12
makes decisions about this matter, and I assumed Judge Claik
had made that decision.
2 And your initial uotk as a consultant was in 1982?
Is that correct?
A It began in 1982.
Q And continued off and on for a five-year period.
A Correct.
2 I take it this was not a full-time position.
A Kot by any means.
2 How were you compensated?
A For specific hours worked.
2 So you would make a monthly —
A Yes, sir.
2 Periodic report of the hours that you had devoted
to such work.
A Exactly.
2 You were paid on an hourly rate.
A Daily rate.
2 Per diem rate. If you worked two hours in one day,
were you paid fox the full day?
A Ko. no. I assume it is sort of the way lawyers
bill. If they work two hours on one day, they billed for
just those two hours.
2 When you say you were paid on a daily rate, I am
not quite sure what you mean.
UNCLASSIFIED
213
NAME :
279
280
281
282
283
28<4
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 13
2 Thera was a daily rate for a consultant. I signed
a contract on that basis, and then it said you would be paid
for working for a day, then I would subnit the number oi
hours until it nada up one day.
2 I see. Uhat was your daily rate?
A I think it began at ^175, it went up to ^00, or--I
can't remereber exactly--but approximately.
Q Mr. Godson, in the five years that you served as a
consultant, did the number of hours you devoted to this work
vary substantially between years, or was it reasonably
steady?
A I would have to review the period. It is five
years, and I can't remember exactly.
2 Realizing you don't have your records here, X am
just trying to get some sense of the amount of time that you
devoted. Let's take the years 1985 and 1986. How many
hours would you estimate that you devoted in the entire year
of 1985 to this work?
HR. SILSERT: Just don't guess. If you have a
reasonable estimate and can answer his question, do not
guess .
MR. fRYHAK: That is correct. I am not--X am asking
iot a reasonable estimate^ based on your recollection.
THE MITKESS : By my standards, not very many.
BY HR. FRYMAN:
uNCUssra
214
NAHE:
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
31 1
312
313
31<4
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
32U
325
326
327
328
HIR253000
UNCUSSIHED
PAGE m
2 Was it undet 1,000 hours?
A I would have to work it out in days. How many
hours is five days, eight into 1,000?
e Uell, assuming--
A 125. No, then it would be 12 months. It would be
less .
C Mould you estimate it was under 500 hours?
A It is sort of--my best recollection would be in the
estimate of a couple of days a month.
2 So, approximately 20 to 25 days a year.
A I am trying to be helpful here, but I think it
would be approximately that, but I don't remember.
S Would the time in 1986 be approximately the same as
1985?
A The summit years were particularly heavy years for
me, the summit meetings were matters I worK/^on, and so I
guess it was fall of '8'4-'85, I don't — I don't recall exactly
when the summits were at this moment.
e To whom did you report at the National Security
Council?
A Hell, it is a — it is not easy — there is no simple
answer. First the National Security Advisers change. I
felt my ultimate responsibility was to the National Security
r
Advir^, but I specifically went over my hours and projects
and tasking with Ilr . De Graffenreid and then subsequently
*tt%
215
KAME-
329
330
33 1
332
333
33U
335
336
337
338
339
3140
341
3<42
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 15
with Waltar Raymond.
2 Now what do you lecall was Me. De Graf f anraid ' s
exact position or titla?
A Ha was eithai Ditactoi or SeniOE Dizector oi
Intelliganca Programs .
Q What do you racall was Mr. Raymond's exact position
or title?
A I can't remember.
2 Was he also involved in intelligence matters while
at the National Security Council?
HR. SILBERT: That is a very broad subject. I
don't know that has to do with the scope of this inquiry.
Counsel, if you could narrow it.
BY HR. FRYHAH:
2 Do you understand the question, Hr . Godson?
A The way Counsel phrased it, I would like to
proceed .
2 Hy pending question was, do you understand my
question?
A Well, the definition of intelligence matters is a
subject of great academic and political controversy. I
would want to be precise. I would like to define
intelligence matters.
S You said that Mr. Oe Graffenreid was involved with
intelligence programs.
UNCLASSIFIED
216
llNtUSSW
NAHE: HIR2S3000 illlUL.riW«" •— -^ pjcE 16
3St
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
36U
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
37H
375
376
377
378
A That was his title.
fi Do you know what intelligence progzans aze?
A I think I do, but it is a natter of great
controversy. The definition of intelligence is a matter of
great controversy.
2 Uhat is your definition of intelligence programs?
A I would have to take some time to write it out. I
have a whole page definition which X discussed with my
class, and I spend hours on this very question.
HR. SILBERT: Frankly, I don't propose to have him
do that here today.
HR. FRYHAK: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
HR. FRYMAN: Back on the record.
HR. SILBERT: While we are on the record, I think
it would be helpful if we got to the areas that fall within
the scope of the comitittee ' s mandate.
HR. FRYMAN: Hell, that is what we aze doing, Mr.
Silbert.
BY HR. FRYMAN'
e Hz. Godson, as a/NSC consultant, you worked with
Hz. De Gzaffenzeid. you have testified, and you worked from
tlae to tine with Halt Raymond, is that cozzeot?
A Cozzect.
e In connection with youz NSC wozk. did you meet
UNCLASSIFIED
217
NAME ■■
379
380
381
382
383
38U
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
39U
395
396
397
398
399
UOO
140 1
>402
U03
HIR253000
Olivet North?
pmssife
PAGE 17
A Y«s.
2 Had you known Colonel North before you became a NSC
consultant?
A Ho.
S How did you meet Colonel North?
A I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I met
most of thii staff at various points over a five-year period.
S Did any of your work as a NSC consultant involve
Colonel North?
A I aa taking a moment to try to recall five years.
I Pause . ]
THE WITNESS: I think the answer is no, I don't
recall any work that X did with the KSC with Colonel North.
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 What was the nature of your contact with him at
NSC, was it just participating in large meetings with him,
or did you have a social contact with hin, or was there some
other sort of contact?
A I attended staff meetings with him. large staff
neetings .
in discussing intelligence collection with members of the
staff, not specifically with him necessarily^ I was given
possibilitjr where I would come into contact with him--the
staff prepared memoranda mS^ about its views about what
part of my responsibilities was involved
mussm
218
KAn£ =
MOU
405
(406
1407
U08
109
(410
141 1
(412
413
(41>4
(415
(416
U17
(418
1419
U20
(421
(422
U23
■424
(425
■426
(427
(428
UNCLASSIRED
HIR2S3000 IIIVIIil U.^.'^irini PAGE 18
kinds o£ intelligencs coll«ctlon were n«eded by the United
States/ so X visited with many staii members to discuss
that. I had little social contact with him.
fi What did you understand during the years that you
. — '
knew him as an NSC employee^, what did you understand to be
his particular areas of responsibility?
A I think it would be not appropriate in this session
to discuss this.
fi Why do you think it would not be appropriate?
[Conferring with Counsel. 1
MR. SILBERT: Mr. Godson believes some of the areas
are classified, he never discussed then with me.
MR. FRYHAK: Are you familiar with Colonel Korth's
public testimony before the committee, Mr. Godson?
A Some parts of it.
S Did you watch any of the testimony?
A I was on jury duty during this time, and so I was
able to watch only segments of it.
Q Did you read any newspaper accounts of the
testimony?
A Yes.
fi Are you aware of areas of responsibility that
Colonel Korth had at the National Security Council that were
not publicly disclosed, to your knowledge, from your viewing
television?
UNCLASSIFIED
219
NAME:
"429
1430
431
432
433
(43(4
(435
(436
(437
(438
(439
U(40
(4U1
(442
I4!43
■4(4(4
(4(45
(4<46
(4(47
4(48
449
450
451
452
453
HIR2S3000
ONCLASSiflED
PAGE 19
A I don't know what ha acknowladgad or what the
coamittae agreed was within the scope of public hearings on
that subject.
2 I don't think that responsive to ray question, Mr.
Godson. Let me just try it again. Are you aware of areas
of responsibility of Colonel North and the National Security
Council that, to your knowledge, from watching television or
reading newspaper reports, have not been publicly disclosed
in the connittee hearings?
(Conferring with Counsel.]
THE WITNESS: How could I answer that without
knowing all that was disclosed?
MR. SILBERT: I still have a problea, you want him
to try and recall what he either saw snippet^^hile on jury
duty over the TV, portions he may have read in newspapers,
and from that determine whether or not there are other areas
that he was aware of that Colonel North was involved in, is
that the question?
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Do you understand my question, Hr . Godson?
A I am not sure I do.
C Would the reporter read my question back?
(The question was read by the reporter.]
THE WITNESS: I don't recall what he said he was
responsible for.
lINCUSSIflED
220
HAKE:
USU
455
1*56
U57
MSB
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
47 1
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
HIR2S3000
mKT\
ddi
PAGE 20
BY HR. FRYMAH:
2 Uera you aware that ha had responsibilities with
respect to Central America?
A I was aware that he had some responsibilities with
respect to Central America.
fi So the answer to the question is yes?
MR. SILBERT: I will tell him not to answer that
question. He answered the questions to the best of his
ability. You asked him ii ha had responsibilities, he said
he had some responsibilities.
HR. FRYHAN: I take it to be a yes answer.
MR. SILBERT: It is not a yes answer. The answer
is words ha gava, it is not yes or no. It is a yes answer,
I was aware he had soma responsibilities, that is a fait and
responsive answer to the question.
BY MR. FRYHAN:
C Did you have discussions with Colonel North about
his responsibilities in the area, of Central America.
[Conferring with Counsel.]
THE HIINESS: Mould you repeat the question please?
MR. FRYHAN: Read the question.
[The question was read by the reporter.]
THE WITNESS: I had a few conversations with him
about the situation in Central America. Not about his
responsibilities .
UNCLASSIHED
221
MAKE :
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
HIR253000
UHWSSlFe
PAGE 21
BY HR. FRYtlAM:
8 Did any of your work as an NSC consultant involve
Central America?
A Not in the specific sense, but as I explained, for
example, ue are concerned with global intelligence
requirements .
2 But not Central America as an area in and of
itself.
Correct .
Is that correct?
Correct.
Do you know Robert Earl?
I don't think so.
Do you know Robert Owen?
I don't think so. The reason I said, if I may say
why, I don't think so, because I have heard those names in
the newspapers, I don't think I know those individuals.
Q Did you know any of the individuals--let me rephrase
that--did you know any of the assistants to Colonel North?
A There axe 50 to 100 people wandering around in the
NSC floor, over the period of years I met so many people I
can't be sure who I met.
2 Let Ba--
A I can't state with assurance that I have never met
them .
A
2
A
2
A
2
A
UNCLASSIFIED
222
KAnE =
sou
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
SIM
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
52U
525
526
527
528
HIR253000
UNClASSiFiED
PAGE 22
2 Let me tty this again. Did you know anyone at the
NSC who you Knew was an assistant to Colonel Nocth?
A Other than possibly just saying hello at a meeting/
who I didn't know who it was, exactly what his
responsibilities were, no.
2 Did you know Fawn Hall?
A Yes, sir.
2 Sid you understand she was Colonel North's
secretary?
A Yes, I did.
2 Old you have any association with her in a
professional capacity? And by that I am trying to
distinguish merely a social contact and speaking to her in
the hall, and in your work as NSC consultant, did you have
any dealings with Fawn Hall?
A No, other than when she was in a room with other
secretaries, I would sometimes be in that room. Their
office complexes changed over a period of time, but I had no
major dealings with her other than when I was having a
discussion with Colonel North.
2 Have you read the Tower Commission report?
A I have read and studied parts of it, yes.
MR. FRYHAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Godson
Deposition Exhibit 2 for Identification a handwritten chart
which was printed in the Tower Commission report.
mussm
223
NAHE:
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
5(40
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
HIR253000
llNClASdiiu3
PAGE 23
(Th« Following Document was markad as Godson
Exhibit No. 2 for Identification.]
BY HR. FRYMAN:
2 Hr . Godson, I show you Godson Deposition Exhibit 2
for identification. Whan you looked at the Tower Commission
report, did you examine that chart?
A I looked at it.
2 Did you look at the entities identified in the
boxes in the chart?
A I looked at some.
2 Did you recognize the names of any of those
entities?
A Well, you are asking me what I did at that time or
the very first time.
2 At the time, the first time you saw the chart, did
you recognize the names of any of those entities?
A I recognized very few. I was concerned about one
because there was. I thought, some potential for confusion
which in my view would be a totally inaccurate, falsa
inference that I was connected with one particular box.
fi Hhloh box was that?
A Something that appears to say Intl Youth, then I
think It is y-o-u-t-h. Then I think it says Comn.
2 When you saw that, you were concerned that that
might be interpreted to relate to an organization with which
ONCLASSIFIED
224
uNCUSsm
HAME: HIR253000 llllUi.nwW>* ■■•^ pj^j. ju
SSM
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
56tt
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
57t»
575
576
577
578
you had been associated?
A That is right, false inference would be draun
especially as a number of individuals had been seeking to
spread some malicious stories about me prior to this.
8 Uhat was the organization with which you had been
associated?
A Well —
(Conferring with counsel.]
MR. SILBERT: You have to be more precise.
MR. FRYHAN: Mr. Silbert, I find it hard to
understand your reason for objecting to that question. Mr.
Godson said in his prior answer that he was concerned that
this reference might be misinterpreted to apply to soma
entity with which he had been associated, and I an just
asking him to what he was referring.
THE WITNESS: To the fact that I had been involved
in youth politics and educational activities fox a number of
years. It wasn't any specific entity.
BY HR. FRYMAN:
fi And when you read this ehazt# you were concerned
that the boK that said Intl Youth Comm would be interpreted
to apply to youz general activities over the years with
youth activities.
A Cozzeot, as it was, as it was misinterpreted.
S As a matter of fact, you had had a much closer
UNCLASSIFIED
225
NAME:
S79
580
58 1
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
HIR253000
UNtlASSlFIB
PAGE 25
association with an antity that had a name very similar to
or that had had the phrase ''International Youth'' in it,
did It not?
A Over the years I have had associations with many
organizations that have a combination oi the word
''international youtW'A./
2 What about in 1984 and 1985?
A Hell--
[ Conferring with Counsel. ]
KR. SILBERT: Ue are going to decline to answer
those questions until you proiier some relevance to this
particular organization. We are not going to go into Hr .
Godson's activities in the youth area. We are not prepared
for it. That was not one of the areas that was specified,
and I am letting him answer that specific question about the
chart .
But unless it is tied down to an area within the
areas we are prepared to deal with today, we will not
respond today. I haven't discussed it with him. haven't
prepared him for it, and besides I don't think it is
relevant. I don't mind any questioning that asks whether
his activities with the youth had anything to do with the
Kicaragua/Izan matter in the funding for Iran, arms sales,
diversion of profits to Iran, covert, to Nicaragua, or
anything about this particular box got on this chart. He
UNCLASSIFIED
82-710 0-88-9
226
60S
606
607
608
609
6 10
61 1
612
6 13
6 m
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
6214
625
626
627
628
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 26
can answer that question, even though we aie not prepared
for that, -(rtf«f% will do so. He can clear it. li you ask of
hint how the box got there, what it is doing, he will answer
the question.
HR. FRYMAN: Let's take this in steps, Mr. Silbert.
One, your statement that you are unprepared for
questions about this, I think, should be placed in the
context of prior discussions that you and I have had about
the International Youth Commission or related names, and
specifically there is a letter from you to me, dated May 12.
1987, which notes our interest in reviewing all documents
relating to the International Youth Commission, the issuance
of a separate subpoena for such documents, a separate
subpoena was issued, investigators from the committee have
reviewed various such documents at our office, you and I
have had a variety of discussions about the subject of the
International Youth Year and the International Youth
Commission--so I find it hard to believe that this is a
subject that comes as a surprise to either you or your
client.
But be that as it may--
HR. SILBERT: i uant to respond to that before you
ask the question. I am going to respond. I will let you
complete what you have to say.
MR. FRYHAK: Well, go ahead and respond, and then I
UNCUSSIFIED
227
NAME:
629
630
63 1
632
633
63U
635
636
637
638
639
6U0
641
6U2
6U3
6i4'4
6145
6U6
647
6U8
6149
650
651
652
653
:si
PAGE 27
HIR253000
will ask the question.
HR. SILBERT: Fine. I an not suggesting that ue
have not been aware, in fact I don't dispute any of the
facts you mentioned other than the fact that I am concerned
about responding to questions under oath today, the fact I
have not gone over this subject with Hr . Godson, in
preparation for today's testimony, which is a deposition
under oath.
Having documents subpoenaed, having an investigator
come to our office to review certain records, you and I
having discussions about subject of International Youth is a
far cry and totally different from adequately preparing a
witness to testify under oath in a matter that can be of
considerable importance.
That is what has not been done, and that is why I
object. As X said, in addition to that, notwithstanding
that, I will not object to certain questions that tie right
into, for example, that chart. Does he know anything about
that? Let's get on with matters that are pertinent to this
witness' knowledge as it affects the committee's inquiry.
Whether it is expressed by Congressman Hamilton in
his letter to his constituents, which I think accurately
suaaarizes it, or the somewhat ambiguous language in Housa
Resolution Number 12--
HR. FRYMAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Godson
UNcuissife
228
<r\r
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
6614
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
67i»
675
676
677
678
Kliii
PAGE 28
HIR253000
Deposition Exhibit 3 for Identification a I'-j^ter from Daniel
Cohen to the Honorable Michael Arnacost, on the letterhead
of the International Youth Year Commission. The letter
indicates a copy was sent to Roy Godson from Floyd Brown.
[The Following Document was marked as Godson
Exhibit No. 3 for Identification. 1
BY HR. FRYMAH:
2 Mr. Godson, would you look at Deposition Exhibit 3
for Identification and tell me if you have seen that
document before?
[ Pause . 1
HR. SILBERT: I am going to object to that question
on two grounds. One, it is beyond the scope for which we
are prepared to answer today. The matter, to my Knowledge,
wasn't covered in the wide ranging, informal interview of
Mr. Godson where he was not under oath and where he tried to
be as cooperative as possible and where he voluntarily
appeared for extensive questioning.
Secondly, number one, we are not prepared and,
therefore, we will not proceed on that independent basis:
number two, having read the letter, rather curiously, I
can't see the remotest relationship to House Resolution
Number 12, not in the slightest. It is a political matter
that has nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with the
mandate of this committee and is an inappropriate subject of
HNCUSSm
229
NAME ■■
679
680
681
682
683
68'<
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
69(4
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
SIOEIl "" "
<fT T:Ti^ 'CT>Tre titution, constitute
HIR253000
inquiry. j.^ j.^ -» ^-^jt-u^ me T-ojisticu-cion, constitutes
gross invasion oi Mr. Godson's political and First Amendment
rights .
MR. FRYMAN: Would you read back the pending
question, please.
[The question was read by the reporter.)
BY MR. FRYMAN:
Would you answer the question, Mr. Godson?
[Conferring with counsel.)
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
And is it correct that a copy of that document was
sent to you, as indicated on the second page?
MR. SILBERT: That is beyond the scope. He doesn't
knou whether it was sent to him or who made it. He will not
answer that question for the reasons previously stated.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 When did you first see that document, Mr. Godson?
MR. SILBERT: Do not answer that question, please.
Saatt basis fox the objection. Sane objections.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 Mr. Godson, you testified that you have seen that
docuaent before, and you will notice the letterhead on top
of that document is •' International Youth Year Commission .' '
Does that refresh your recollection as to when you saw the
UNCLASSIFIED
230
7014
70S
706
707
708
709
7 10
7 1 1
712
713
7m
715
716
717
718
HIR253000
mmii'M
PAGE
30
chart uhich is Deposition Exhibit 2 that you are concerned
about the box that has the phrase ''Intl Youth Comm/ was a
concern about your association with some specific entity and
not your association with general youth groups over the
years ?
MR. SILBERt: I don't know whether to permit hin to
answer the question^ Hr . Fryman. Ue have indicated we will
try to respond to what he knows about that box on Godson
Exhibit Number 2> as reprinted in the Tower Report, but that
question was so complex and convoluted I an afraid I didn't
understand it, and it had words like ' ' associate(' 'I,/ which
can mean almost anything and is too vague and ambiguous for
a witness to be able to answer a question of that nature.
HR. FRynAN: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record. 1
mmsw
231
MAKE
719
720
72 1
722
723
724
725
726
IZl
728
729
730
731
732
733
7314
73S
736
IZl
738
739
740
741
7U2
743
HIR2S3000
RPTS CANTOR
DCMN MILTOH
[ 10:00 1
PAGE
31
Dffi'iSSlFlEO
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record.
MR. SILBERT: I would like the record to reflect
that ior approximately five or ten minutes there has been an
exchange priirarily between Mr. Fryman and Hr . Godson, with
some comments by myself ^»i^ Mr . Godson's counsel relating to
the scope of the inquiry and specific questions that Hr .
Fryman claimed he had, to which Mr. Godson made a number of
specific response(, all dealing with respect to the general
area of youth, or International Youth Commission.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 Mr. Godson, you were aware, were you not, that 1985
had been designated as the International Youth Year?
A Yes.
2 And in connection with the International Youth
Year, there was a conference being held in Jamaica in 198S.
You are aware of that, are you not?
A Right.
2 And in connection with the International Youth
Year, there were various organizations that had been formed,
one of which was called the International Youth Year
Commission. Are you aware of that?
\mmm
232
74U
7145
746
7U7
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
HIR253000
UNClASSffl
PAGE
32
A Correct.
2 And you had certain responsibilities and
involvement in connection uith the International Youth Year,
and in particular the conierence in Jamaica in 1985, had you
not?
A I had various responsibilities.
THE WITNESS: Ue will step outside.
[Witness and counsel confer.)
riR. SILBERT: Back on the record.
Thank you for the opportunity to consult with Hr .
Godson. Mr. Fryman. One of the reasons ue had to do that is
that we are into areas for which I have not prepared the
witness for today. He will respond to that question, as I
said before, but I'm not sure it was on the record as part
of our colloquy. If you ask him what if anything he knows
about that box on Deposition Exhibit Ho. 2. if he has any
information, knows anything about how it got there, he will
answer that, be as cooperative with the committee on matters
within its scope, and the answer will be definitely no.
MR. FRYHAK: Hr . Sllbert, one, I will ask the
questions today the way I want to ask them.
Secondly, I think maybe we should clarify one
matter for the record. The fact that you may or may not
have prepared your witness for certain areas today is
disturbing, but nevertheless this deposition has been
UNcmre
233
NAME ■
769
770
77 1
772
773
77U
775
776
111
778
779
780
781
782
783
78M
785
786
IQl
788
789
790
791
792
793
HIR253000
yNCiASsra
PAGE 33
scheduled £or at least two weeks. You have been auare
without any ambiguity of a wide variety of areas of interest
that this comraittee had in questioning Mr. Godson, including
specifically the area of the International Youth Year and
the conference in Jamaica. It was an area that we spent a
great deal of tma discussing in our interview several
months ago, and the fact that you and Mr. Godson have not
discussed that in the last day or so, according to your
statement, so far as I'm concerned does not place any limit
on the comnittee inquiring into this area today.
So far as the letter that you sent to me two days
ago, as I stated at the beginning today, I don't accept your
characterizations in that letter. You were informed
yesterday before the close of business that I didn't accept
those characterizations, and it is not up to you to impose
any artificial limits on the areas of inquiry of this
committee.
MK. SILBERT: I think you must stay withinVmandate^
of the committee and I can't for the life of me, and I will
listen to a proffer before I make a final decision, see what
thA International Youth Year has to do with the mandate of
this committee. Me, as my letter stated, answered and
responded to every single question asked at the informal
interview of Mr. Godson, even though, as I said to you in my
letter, I believe/then and I believe now they were far
UNCLASS1F1[[
234
794
795
796
1^1
798
799
800
80 1
802
803
SOU
805
806
807
808
809
810
81 1
812
813
81t4
815
816
817
818
HIR253000 1111191 HjIpJII J I If ?t.QZ 34
beyond the mandate^ of this conmittee, and with cespect to
this deposition, as I advised you well before, that I would
not allow, I would certainly object to any inquiry that is
not relevant to the stated purposes or legitimate purposes
of this committee. As far as I know at the present time,
the Jamaican conference has zero to do with certainly
Chairman Hamilton's description of what this committee was
investigating, and also somewhat mora ambiguous language of
House Resolution Ko . 12.
MR. FRYHAH: I take it, Hr. Silbert, that you are
familiar and have looked at Godson Deposition Exhibit 2 for
identification, which shows a boK with the name
''International Youth Commission'' and arrows directed to an
account called IC , and further arrows directed to an account
called Lake, which I believe you should be aware there is
testimony before this committee that Lake is a Swiss account
that was used in connection with arms sales to Iran, and
financing of the resistance in Nicaragua.
HR. SILBERT: You may see on your chart a copy of
an arrow from International Youth Commission down to IC . I
certainly don't see it.
KR. FRYMAK: Then I will let the document speak for
itself.
MR. SILBERT' To clarify, if you want to ask him
again if he knows of any connection between Youth Com. and
wmm
235
UNCLASSIRED
NAME: HIK253000 U I 1 \f i.1 IV/ V/ ■ ■ I h> V page 35
819 IC 8-A, ask hin . Ha will ansuer the quastion.
820 HR. fRYHAN: AS I say, Mr. Silbart, I'm asking the
821 questions today, not you. That will be one of the questions
822 I ask, but I'n not limiting ray questions to your suggestions
823 today. li we have to get to the point today of making a
82M record of questions and y*^^9 directing the witness not to
825 answer in order to present to the Chairman of the committee,
826 in order to obtain a direction of the witness to answer and
827 to make any record that we need for contempt proceedings, we
828 will do that.
829 As I indicated to you before the deposition. I
830 hoped we would not have to go that route, but if that is the
831 procedure you and Mr. Godson want to follow, we will take
832 that route.
833 MR. SILBERT: No one wants to follow a procedure
83<4 like that. On the other hand, X do expect committee counsel
835 to ask questions in a reasonably professional way, to get to
836 the heart of the inquiry, rather than beating around the
837 bush and asking irrelevant questions that don't go to the
838 issues before it.
839 Ulth all due respect, Mr. Fryman, X don't think you
8U0 axe intending to do that. X certainly respect your attempt
8>41 to iuliill the committee's responsibilities, but X'm here
8U2 protecting the person's right to respond to german<> inquiry.
843 I'm not about to tell you what specific questions to ask.
UNCLASSIFIED
236
NAnE'
81414
845
846
847
848
849
850
851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
860
86 1
862
863
864
865
866
867
868
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 36
I'm suggesting to you that we will respond to any question,
even though we nay have to interrupt because we were not
prepared on certain areas, if they appear to be germane to
the committee's inquiry. We are taking a lot of time to get
to the heart of some matters, and if he is not telling you
the truth, then you can prosecute him for perjury, but ask
him the questions however you want to phrase it, whatever
orderC you want, about what he knows about this chart or any
relationship between those entities, and he will answer it.
That is what we are here to do.
MR. ncGOUGH: I just want the record to reflect on
behalf of the Senate committee our position on the matter.
He have not issued a subpoena to Mr. Godson for
this deposition. We are here in the hopes we can obviate
the need for a separate Senate deposition. I don't find the
objections particularly well-founded, and believe that these
inquiries are relevant not only to the House inquiry but
also to the Senate inquiry.
Again, I'm not deferring to Hr . Fryman on the
conduct of the deposition, but I certainly find questions
about entities that may be related to the box on the
commission chart to be well within the scope of the Senate's
inquiry, and if need be, would consider issuing a separate
subpoena in order to get the answers that I think may be
necessary. I hope we don't come to that. I hope we can
UNCLASSIRED
237
UNCUSSIFIED
PAGE 37
NAHE: HIR253000
869 jointly work out the approptiata agreement that may allow
870 both committees to gat the information that is needed .
871 HR. BUCK: On behalf of the House ninority, I would
872 like to state our position. That is that Mr. Godson's past
873 dealings with any youth organizations are only relevant
8714 insofar as they have to do with our investigations, and if
875 Mr. Godson will state for the record what he knows about
876 this box and any other boxes on this chart, or what he knows
877 about Oliver North, Colonel North's activities. I think that
878 should be sufficient.
879 rurtharmore, although I didn't saa all of Colonel
880 North's testimony, and Colonel North testified for over 30
881 hours, I did not saa Colonel North, did not hear Colonel
882 North testify on this subject that ha was the author of the
883 document that has been marked as Exhibit 2.
88U If ha wasn't asked to testify on it, I have trouble
885 seeing why Mz . Godson is being asked thasa questions.
886 HR. FRYHAN: Off tha record.
887 [Discussion off tha record.]
888 MR. FRYMAN: Back on tha record.
889 BY MR. FRYMAN:
890 2 He. Godson, I will coma back later to soma further
89 1 questions on tha subject of tha International Youth Year,
892 but with respect to this chart, I have just a few additional
893 questions at the moment.
UNCUSSIRFD
238
NAME:
Q9H
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
902
903
90(4
905
906
907
908
909
910
91 1
912
913
914
915
916
917
918
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 38
Prior to seeing this chart in the Tuuer Commission
Report, had you ever seen it before that time?
A No.
2 Had you ever discussed with Colonel North your work
in connection uith the International Youth Year?
A I have no recollection whatsoever to having
discussed this with CB^^BMBBHK^Hl^^BS^
2 Have you ever discussed the conference in Jamaica
in 1985 with Colonel North?
A I have no recollection of ever having a direct
conversation with Colonel North about the conference in
Jamaica or the International Youth activities at that time.
2 You used the words ''a direct conversation.'* Are
you trying to distinguish that from an indirect
conversation?
A I can't swear that I might not have been discussing
with other people, ha may have entered the room, it may have
come up in other fora, but I did not have any direct
conversations uith him about this subject.
2 Was youE work on the Jamaica conference in the
International Youth Year a subject you discussed in the
offices of the National Security Council?
A Yes.
2 And it is possible Colonel North attended or
overheard some of these conversations?
DNCMflfO
239
HARE:
919
920
92 I
922
923
92t(
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
93(<
935
936
937
938
939
940
91(1
942
943
HIR253000
UNCLASSiFIED -'
'AGE 39
A I hava no recollection of hin ever attending any oi
the meetings .
2 Who do you recall discussing these matters with in
the national Security Council offices?
A A number of staffers that were involved in that
might have had tangential relationship, such as the people
in the region who dealt with the Caribbean,
e Would that be Hr . BurJ(hardt?
A He uas one. There were several.
HR. FRYHAM: Would you read back the last answer,
please .
[The reporter read the record as requested.!
BY HR. FRYHAN-
e Did you discuss the International Youth Year or the
conference with Walt Raymond?
A Yes.
e Did you discuss the International Youth Year or the
conference with Hr . DeGraf f enreid ?
A I'm not sure.
8 Did you ever review with Colonel North any
organization chart involving activities of his?
A Ko.
fi And when you testified that you had not seen Godson
Exhibit 2 for identification prior to your review of the
Tower Commission Report, by that answer do you mean that you
UNCLASSIFIED
240
KAME: HIR2S3000
llNWSSffl
PAGE
HO
944
945
946
947
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
961
962
963
964
965
966
967
968
had also not seen any chart that was a prior draft of this
chart or appear to be substantially similar to this chart?
A The answer is I had never seen this chart or a
previous chart before. You said review of the Tower
Commission. I think the Tower Commission the first time I
saw this was the newspaper<-printed chart of the Tower
Commission. It was the newspaper of that day. I just
wanted to clarify it.
2 But the source was the Tower Commission Report?
A Correct, the newspaper. I have never seen this
chart or any chart nor discussed the chart ever with Colonel
Kort'.i.
HR. FRYHAH: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.!
HR. FRYHAM: Back on the record.
BY MR. FRYHAN:
2 Mr. Godson, are you employed also by the National
Strategy Information Center?
A I'm a part-time employee.
2 What is your position?
A I'm the director of the Washington office.
2 And that is a part-time position?
A That is a part-time position.
2 How large is the Washington office?
A Could you be more precise?
UNCLASSIFIED
241
NAME :
969
970
97 1
972
973
974
975
976
978
979
980
981
982
983
981
98S
986
987
988
989
990
991
992
993
00 « 3 *
HIR253000 IIITSlil-ini^WSS l«-fc» PAGE 4 1
2 How many employees?
HR. SILBERT; You want to know how many squara
feet?
THE WITNESS: I don't know precisely. There are
various arrangements with research staff, research fellows
who come and do projects there. Approximately 10.
BY MR. FRYHAK:
2 Would that be approximately 10 full-time employees?
A In any particular year?
2 Yes.
A It would vary between 5 and 10.
2 Does the HSIC also have offices in New York?
A Its main office is in New York City.
2 And is it only the two offices. New York and
Washington?
A Those are the only two offices . It has
repr asentatives or consultants in other cities.
2 Is the number of employees in New York larger than
the number in Washington?
A I don't know the answer to that. It may change
over the years. You will have to specify which year and I
would have to check.
2 Say in 1986
A I just don't know.
2 Do you consider the New York office the
UNCLASSIFIED
242
HIR253000
UNClASSife
PAGE 42
HAHE
99U headquarters office?
995 A Yes.
996 e Your title is director of the Washington office.
997 To uhora do you report in the KSIC?
998 A To the president and the vice president.
999 2 Who is the president?
1000 A Frank Barnett.
100 1 e What is the governing structure of the
1002 organization, and by that I mean, is there a board of
1003 directors?
100<4 A Yes.
1005 2 That Hr . Barnett reports to and ultimately you
1006 report to?
1007 A Yes, I think so.
1008 2 And is there a chairman of the board?
1009 A I don't know.
1010 2 You don't know who the chairman is?
10 11 A Ko .
1012 2 Do you meet with the board of directors
1013 periodically?
lOlM A Yes.
10 15 2 What are your responsibilities as director of the
10 16 Washington office, briefly?
1017 A To provide general guidance to the full-time staff,
1018 who also report to the president and the vice president in
UNCLASSIFIED
243
\msmi
HknE HIR253000 ■ E 4 W i ^ !__ T.!.; ^ fc 3 u 1 4J :J PAGE 4 3
1019 Heu York, and to engaga in research which is supported by
1020 the National Strategy Information Center, and publications,
1021 and I guess also to provide public--to be available to the
1022 public, to the press, to provide information about my
1023 specialties of the National Strategy Information Center.
1021* e Uould you say that the primary function of the
1025 National Strategy Infornation Center is an educational
1026 function?
1027 A Yes, I uould.
1028 Q And that involves various research projects and
1029 publications, various materials?
1030 A Organizing conferences and seminars.
1031 2 And do the subject matters of the activities center
1032 on foreign policy matters?
1033 A Exclusively.
103(4 8 When did you fixst become associated with the NSIC?
1035 A 1965 as a graduate student.
1036 S That is uhen you were at Columbia?
1037 A Correct.
1038 2 Do you know when the NSIC was founded?
1039 A 1962.
10>40 S At the time you first became associated with the
lOm organization, do you know if William Casey had any
10'(2 affiliation with the organization?
10M3 A I believe he was a director at that time.
UNCUS.SS!n!
244
NAME:
lOttU
104S
1016
1047
10U8
10U9
10S0
1051
1052
1053
105it
1055
1056
1057
1058
1059
1060
1061
1062
1063
106U
1065
1066
1067
1068
HIR2S3000
SS'iP''
PAGE
44
S Did you know Hr . Casey at that time?
A Are you asking did X know him when I went beiore?
2 Did you know him in 1965?
A I don't believe I did.
2 When did you iiist meet Mr. Casey?
A I can't remember exactly which year, but he stopped
being the director of KSIC when he joined the Hixon
administration, which was the election of 1968.
S Did he ever resume as a director?
A Ko.
2 Had you met Mr. Casey by 1968?
A If X had, it would have just been to say hello. X
can't say X didn't, but X don't recall ever having any major
conversations with him.
2 Xs it your understanding that Kz . Casey was one of
the individuals who were instrumental in founding the NSXC?
A Could you define ''founding'' for me? X don't mean
to be difficult, because he was a lawyer, and X think he
provided legal services for the National Strategy
Xnforaation Centex. He was one of the lawyers, if not the
lawyer. X just don't know enough to answer the question
specifically.
fi So your answer suggests that you really had no clear
understanding about his role in the origin of the
organization, is that correct?
IINCLJISSJFIED
245
HAHE :
1069
1070
107 1
1072
1073
10714
107S
1076
1077
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
1084
1085
1086
1087
1088
1089
1090
1091
1092
1093
HIT. 253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE MS
A Correct, but I have heard it repeatedly stated that
Frank Barnett and naury Liebman. a lawyer in Chicago, uere
the tuo principals who founded KSIC .
2 Is fir. Liebman with the firm of Sidney and Austin?
A I think so.
2 And it's your understanding that Mr. Casey had no
official association with the NSIC after 1968?
A No official responsibilities, that's correct.
As an officer?
Correct .
Or as a director?
Correct .
AT the time you became a consultant to the National
Security Council in 1982, what was the nature of your
association with Mr. Casey, if any? Had you had a
professional association with hin in your position as the
Washington director of the NSIC, for example?
MR. SILBERT: I don't know what that means.
HR. FRYMAN: Let me withdraw the question and I
will rephrase it.
BY HR. FRYHAK:
S Did you ever have any discussions with Hr . Casey
about your beconing a consultant to the National Security
Council ?
No
IINCUSSIFIED
246
NAME:
109U
1095
1096
1097
1098
1099
1 100
1101
1 102
1 103
1 10U
1 105
1 106
1 107
1 108
1 109
1110
1111
1112
1 1 13
1 1 1U
1 1 IS
1 1 16
1117
1 1 18
mmmm
HIR253000 **.' a V^n«> ?,1 ."!SB 13 HI PAGE 46
2 Are you auace whether or not he had any role in
your becoming a consultant?
A I'm not auare that he had any role.
S In 1982> the year that you became a consultant to
tWe NSC, do you recall ii you had had any dealings with rir .
Casey in that year?
HR. SILBERT: Can you be a little more helpful on
the word ''dealings'*? I don't knou what that means. Did
he see him on the street?
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 To the best of your recollection, in 1982 do you
recall any conversation that you had with Mr. Casey?
A No, I don't recall.
2 Do you recall participating in any meetings with
fir . Casey?
A ny responsibilities pertained to intelligence
matters. I was also a consultant to the President's Foreign
Intelligence Advisory Board and still am. I can't say I
didn't. I mean. I can't say whether I saw Mr. Casey at all
in 1982. It would just be impossible.
2 Did you have meetings with Mr. Casey after you
became a consultant to the National Security Council?
A Ii you mean meetings alone--is that what you mean?
2 Yes, let's say individual meetings.
A In connection with classified work I do — classified
UNCLASSIFIED
247
NAHE-
1119
1 120
1121
1 122
1 123
1 1214
1 125
1 126
1 127
1 128
1 129
1 1 30
1131
1 132
1 133
1 134
1 135
1 136
1 137
1 138
1 139
1 mo
1141
1 142
1 143
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 47
work unrelated to the subjects of this investigation, I had
some meetings with him.
2 You had some individual meetings?
Meetings, yes, a feu.
When was the last time you saw Mr. Casey?
Other than sort of passing him in the corridor.
A
e
A
right?
i Yes.
A Or seeing him in the men's or something like that.
Maybe a couple of years before his death.
2 Did you call Mr. Casey by his first name?
A It uould depend on the circumstance.
S But there uere occasions when you were on a fiist-
nane basis with fir. Casey?
A Oh , yes .
2 Did you ever participate in any meetings with Mr.
Casey and Colonel Korth. just the three of you?
A Ko.
2 nr . Godson, you are also a teacher, are you not?
A Correct.
2 Where do you teach?
A Georgetown University.
S What is your title?
A I'm an associate professor of government.
2 How long have you been at Georgetown?
II
%mm
248
HAKE:
1 lUU
1 ms
1 146
1 m?
1 ms
1 149
1 150
1151
1 152
1153
1 15>4
1 155
1156
1 157
1 158
1 159
1 160
116 1
1 162
1 163
1 164
1 165
1 166
1 167
1 168
HIR2S3000
yNCiASsro
PAGE 48
A Since the late 1960s.
2 Did you go to Georgetown after getting your Ph.D.
from Columbia, immediately after?
A I was at Georgetown when I got my Ph.D.
S You were a teaching fellow?
A Yes, sir. No, I was just teaching.
[Discussion off the record. 1
nR. FRYKAH: Back on the record.
BY MR. FRYHAN:
S Your field, you have indicated, Mr. Godson, is
government and international relations; is that correct?
A Correct.
2 And you have had an area of concentration for some
time with respect to intelligence matters?
A Intelligence studies.
S And is that a subject of courses that you teach at
Georgetown?
A Correct.
2 And have you also published books and articles in
that subject area?
A Yes.
fi In connection with your work teaching at the NSIC
and also your work from 1982 to 1987 at the National
Security Council, did you maintain more than one office or
did you just have an office at the university?
249
HAHE :
1 169
1 170
117 1
1 172
1 173
1 174
1 175
1 176
1 177
1 178
1 179
1 180
1 181
1 182
1 183
1 18U
1 185
1 186
1 187
1 188
1 189
1 190
119 1
1 192
1 193
HIR253000
yNMSSiFia
PAGE U9
A My main office is at tha university, but of course
the National Strategy Information Center has offices so I
have a desk there.
e And did you have a third office at the National
Security Council?
A No, I didn't.
2 So in this period of time you had basically an
office at Georgetown and an office at tha NSIC?
A To say that I had an office, NSIC has an office. I
used their office.
2 Did you have a private office at tha NSIC?
A The offices are used interchangeably by the people
who are visiting and so on, so it depends on your definition
of having an office.
e Do you have a secretary?
A There is a secretary for tha office, and she
serves, she also takes care of my office needs.
2 That is at the HSIC?
A But she takes care of a number. We don't have the
luxury of one secretary for one parson.
2 And do you also have a secretary at Georgetown?
A There are secretaries in the department for all.
In other words, the sane arrangement, secretary servicing
several different people.
2 Uhat sort of records do you maintain of meetings
ONCLASSiFiEO
250
MAKE:
1 19H
1 195
1 196
1 197
1 198
1 199
1200
120 1
1202
1203
12014
1205
1206
1207
1208
1209
1210
1211
1212
1213
121M
1215
1216
1217
1218
UNCUSSIRtD
HIR253000 mini Mvlillfl II IJ PAGE 50
that you have and also telephone conversations? For
example, at the NSIC, does the secretary maintain a record
of phone conversations that you place or that are incoming
calls to you, if you knou?
A I don't think she maintains a record of calls. I'm
sure she doesn't. Sometimes I place my own calls.
Sometimes she places calls. Sometimes other secretaries.
There isn't one secretary that would be doing that.
8 Do you maintain yourself a record of your phone
calls?
A
2
A
Ho.
Do you maintain a record of your meetings?
Kot a precise--! mean for a while. I have a diary
for the year which has some of my meetings. There is no
single source for all of my meetings. I don't maintain
such .
2 What sort of calendar do you maintain?
A I carry a small notebook, an annual thing which X
generally junk.
2 And you note your appointments?
A Some of them, not all.
2 You have a desk calendar as well?
A Ko.
2 Hhat was the other calendar you were referring to,
or I understood you were referring to a second calendar?
UNCLASSIFIED
251
NAME ■■
1219
1220
122 1
1222
1223
1224
1225
1226
1227
1228
1229
1230
1231
1232
1233
12314
1235
1236
1237
1238
1239
1240
12U1
12K2
12143
HIR253000
UNCUSSifiB
PAGE
51
A I didn't refer to a second calendar.
2 So the only calendar you maintain is the pocket
calendar that you carry with you?
A Correct.
2 Do you keep those calendars after the end of the
year ?
A I generally throw them away. I keep them for a
while for tax purposes and that sort of thing and get rid of
them .
2
A
2
A
00 you have the calendar for 1986?
No.
1985?
You asked ne 1986. Ho, generally those calendars I
have junked.
2 Just so th« record is clear, Hr . Godson, the 1986
calendar that you maintained that reflected your
appointments, you have destroyed that calendar?
A Right.
2 When did you destroy that?
A It was some months ago.
S And do you still have the pocket calendar for 1985?
A Ho. I generally use them for the first feu months
of the year to sort of recollect for tax purposes or expense
purposes, if I took a trip where I went that particular day,
and then I generally have no reason to keep that kind of
lINCUSSIflED
252
NAME:
12UU
12U5
12U6
1247
12M8
12(49
1250
1251
1252
1253
125H
1255
1256
1257
1258
1259
1260
1261
1262
1263
126U
1265
1266
1267
1268
HIR2S3000
IINCUSSIFIED
PAGE
52
thing .
2 Do you have any record at this time of your
appointments in 1985 and 1986?
A For me personally?
S Or are you auare of any record?
A I don't have it. There would be vague diary--!
mean, of projects in the office that might contain some
appointments. Usually it would be inaccurate because nobody
knows all of my appointments. As I say, I'm wandering
between offices.
Q These are diaries maintained at the NSIC?
A Correct.
2 Who maintains the diaries you are referring to?
A The secretary in the office there.
2 What is the name of the secretary?
A Jill Fall.
2 And did she maintain those diaries during 1985 and
1986?
Yes
A
2 And so far as you are aware, those are the only
records that are in existence today of any meetings that you
had in 1985 and 1986?
A Yes, that's right.
2 Are you aware of any records that are in existence
today of any phone calls that you made in 1985 and 1986?
iiNCUSSife
i
253
NAHE'
1269
1270
127 1
1272
1273
12714
1275
1276
1277
1278
1279
1280
1281
1282
1283
128>4
1285
1286
1287
1288
1289
1290
1291
1292
1293
HIX253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 53
No.
&
fi Do you know Elliott Abraits?
A Kas.
fi Uh«n did you ilist iiaat Ki . Abrams?
A Oh, boy. I think whan ha was an aida to Sanatoc
Jackson of Washington.
fi Did you hava any contact with Mr. Abrans in
connaction with your work as a consultant to tha National
Security Council?
A I don't think so.
fi Did you avar participata in any naating with Mr.
Abraits and Colonal North?
A No.
fi Did Colonal North avax ask you to bacone involved
in any iund-raising activities?
A Ha asked ii I could assist in raising funds!
fi When did he ask you to do that?
A I can't recall the exact nonth. I can barely
renember the year.
Q Hhat was tha year?
A I think it's 1985.
& How did the subject cone up?
A As I recall. I was working one day in the
intelligence directorate, the Oiiioe of the Intelligence
mm
254
NAn£:
1294
1295
1296
1297
1298
1299
1300
1301
1302
1303
ISOU
1305
1306
1307
1308
1309
1310
1311
1312
1313
1314
1315
1316
1317
1318
HIR2S3000
UNEUSSifltO
PAGE 54
Directocate of the NSC, and he and an HSC staifet who also
worked in that directorate asked me if I uould be able to
give assistance.
i Who was the other person?
A Vincent Cannistraro.
2 What was his position at the NSC?
A He was I think also a director of intelligence
programs. X think by that time DeGraf f enreid was the senior
director and he was a director.
2 And you worked with Mr. Cannistraro in your
consulting activities?
A Yes.
S AJ the time Mr. North nade this rec^uest, where did
the meeting take place?
A As I stated, I can't recall whether it was in his
office. North's office, but my recollection is it was in Mr.
Cannistraro ' s office.
2 Here you called into the office with the two of
them being there?
A I can't remember exactly, but my recollection is I
was working actually in the complex of offices of the
Intelligence Directorate and Cannistraro and North asked to
talk with na.
2 They asked you to come into some office and meet
with them?
UNCLASSIFIE!
255
KAKE
1319
1320
1 32 1
1322
1323
1324
1325
1326
1327
1328
1329
1330
1331
1332
1333
133M
1335
1336
1337
1338
1339
1340
1341
'l342
1343
HIX253000
ONSUSSinEO
PAGE 55
» Yas. a bunch of oiiicas th«r«. I night hava ba«n
sitting thata working on sonathing. I just don't recall tha
spacific tlraa.
2 Do you racall H it was Cannistraro who asked you
to meet with than or North?
A I can't.
2 Ona of tha two, and thara was a meeting with just
tha three of you?
A North clearly was asking aa to do this. It was
clearly North was asking. I can't racall tha specifics of
who asked who to sit in what rooit.
S Hhat did you understand was tha reason for
Cannistraro being present?
A I didn't have any. I don't know.
2 But most of tha talking was by North?
A Yes.
2 What did ha say as best you racall?
A Ha said that — I was generally familiar with ^^^^^|
[anyway. Ha just said, "You are familiar with
'*' and would I ba able to be of soma
assistanca, and that for various reasons the government was
unable to ba of assistanca.
S Did h« indicate why ha was asking you to?
A No.
2 Do you have any information that indicates why ha
256
KAHE: HIR2S3000 UlflULfilJil
1344 was asking you?
1345 A No.
IF!!
PAGE 56
UNCUSSIHED
'I
i
257
NAHE:
13U6
13U7
13M8
1349
13S0
13S1
1352
1353
13514
1355
1356
1357
1358
1359
1360
1361
1362
1363
136(4
1365
1366
1367
1368
1369
1370
HIR253000
RPTS THOMAS
DCMN GLASSMAP
[ 11 : 30 a.m. I
PAGE
57
BY HR. FRYHAH:
Q Did you ask any quAstionst
A I guttss I would hava asked how much money he was
talking about. I know for what period oi time. The normal
questions one would ask, ii somebody was asked to assist
somebody. That is about all.
2 HoH much money did he say was involved?
A I can't recall precisely, but I think it was in the
range oi «20,000 a month.
2 For what period oi time?
A He didn't specify. He said he couldn't, there was
no way of specifying.
2 Did ha indicate what tha money was going to be used
for?
A Mot really, no.
I didn't find it a remarkable thing.
8 Did you tell him in this first meeting that you
would help?
A No. I didn't.
258
NAHE:
137 1
1372
1373
137t4
137S
1376
1377
1378
1379
1380
1381
1382
1383
138U
138S
1386
1387
1388
1389
1390
1391
1392
1393
1394
1395
mil fe> ^ ^1^'4 p
HI112S3000 2|5^?T^ ?„.?,^. 't- :?•?;■ ^"'i page S8
fi What did you say?
A I would say I would hava to think about it and sae
whathat I could, X would ba abla to ba of assistanca. I an
not waalthy mysali, so I would hava to sea whathat I would
iind soma paopla who would ba willing to contributa to
whatavai/ what I thought was a worthy causa.
Q Did you talk with anyona alsa about whathar you
should gat involvad in this?
A No, I don't think I did.
e How long did it taka you to dacida whathar oe not
you should gat involvad?
A Wall, thaza waza two issuas: ona, whathat I
should, and in tatns oi whathar I ought to, and a sacond
ona. whathar I could practically ba of any assistanca. X
was halping ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^la
worthy causa, so X dacidad quickly in principla that this
was a good idaa. Tha ''could'* part took ma soma tima to
talk to paopla.
A ^^^^^^^^^1 Is Xs a
ralavant quastion?
KK. SXLBERT' X would lika to know what tha
ralavanoa of that is, as a mattar of fact. What doas
hava to do with this procaading?
nx. nc G0U6H: Xt is ay quastlon. Xf tha objaction
\mMm
259
1396
1397
1398
1399
lUOO
IMOI
1402
1403
1(40(4
1U0S
1(406
1(407
1(408
1U09
1(410
1(41 1
1412
1413
1414
1415
1416
1417
1418
1419
1420
HIR253000 Wl 1 VI*' ■\#vu'i:< » J^ W PAGE 59
had ba«n mada bafora tha quastion was ansuatad, i would hava
baan happy to axplain it. I will axplain it now. Hr .
Godson indicata^it was a worthy causa that ha wantad to
help, and tha coramittea is entitled to know whether, in
^^c^'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kor he
raising nonay. It saans iairly straightforward, I didn't
what^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l but onlyl
>r which you ara raising money?
HR. SILBERT: »H right. I think you ought to
apologize for tha question.
MR. nc GOUGH: I don't think tha question was
inappropriate. Tha next question could hava been and was
not asked, when a person raises aonay
I don't think it is any inquiry into]
^^^ and I would not
think any apologias ara nacassazy.
BY HR. FRYHAN:
^/
e Hz. Godson, you divida/youz decision into two
1^
aspects?
A Wall, in technically —
e Row long did it take you to reach a decision with
raspact to both aspects? Aza wa talking about a period oi
less than a weak?
A No. longer, it took longaz.
IIMC! ACCfClcn
260
1U21
m22
1M23
14214
1U2S
m26
11427
11428
1429
1(430
mai
1(432
1(433
143(4
1(435
1(436
1(437
1(438
1<439
1(4(40
14(41
1442
1443
1444
1445
UNCLASSIFIED
HIR2S3000 llllll.l "-^B^glTjry PAGE 60
fi Savaral w«aks?
k Yas.
S Old you consult with anyona als« in making this
dftclsion. or did--th« two aspacts of this decision--
A No> I inmadiataly, aitar I dacided to do this, I
sat out, not that vary minuta, I sat out to ask somaone who
I thought would ba syapatha tic, might ba sympathetic to
supporting ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H
2 You maan to assist you in fund-raising.
A That is corract.
fi Baiora wa gat to that, Z am focusing at tha momant
on you parsonally making tha daclsion uhathar or not to gat
involvad. Is that a daclsion you mada by yoursalf, or did
you consult with anyona alsa in making that daclsion?
A I don't racall discussions with anyona alsa. X
ragardad It as a sansitlva mattar, and I did not wij^h to
indicata to othar paopla that I was involvad in assisting
fi Tha procaads of tha daclsion as to whathar or not
you should ba involvad at all took mora than a waak is your
racollaotlen?
A Kot whathar I should ba Involvad, not tha formative
quastlon. but whathar Z could amplrioally do anything.
S Lat ma phrasa it and ask it anothar way.
Hhan and what was tha naxt discussion you had with
EL>i
261
KAnc>
mu7
114149
114S0
msi
1>4S2
1"453
msu
114SS
114S6
11457
11458
1U59
11460
11461
11462
11463
114614
11465
m66
11467
11468
11469
1U70
HIR253000
lASSiFiED
PAGE 61
Colcnal Kotth in zasponsa to his original zaquest?
1 Aitar I had ascartainad that it night ba possibla
that I found somaona who might ba willing to halp who had
tha potantial to talk to peopla, who would support]
I called hia or saw hin whan I was at KSC, or soma
other tina I brought it to his attention orally.
fi So that tha ' 'could' ' part of tha decision-making
process, in your nind, involved finding out whether there
was someone else who could assist you in tha fund-raising?
A Correct.
2 And did you only discuss that aspect with one other
parson?
A
fi
A
C
A
fi
A
Richard
Before I want back to Korth?
Before you want back to North.
Yes.
Hho was that person?
Tarry Sleasa.
How had you known Hz. Slease?
nr. Sleasa had been a lawyer for Richard Sc'
/^>pf:
and
had baan a donoz to tha National Strategy
Infornation Canter. I had also gotten to know Hr . Slease as
a personal iriand; and in his- capacity as a personal friend,
I want to him.
fi You described to hi* what Colonel North had said to
you?
.MOwil iLiJ
262
KANE:
11471
1472
1473
1474
1475
1476
1477
1478
1479
1480
1481
1482
1483
1484
1485
1486
1487
1488
1489
1490
1491
1492
1493
1494
1495
HIR2S3000 UiflULKwyjf ^LU PAGE 62
A A version of It to sea If h* was at all intarasted.
Q Ha Indicated ha was?
A Yes.
2 And at that point> you want back to Colonal NorLIi?
A That is correct.
2 mentioned ^^^^^^^^^^P in one of your
H&d Colonel Korth referred to ^^^^^^^^^H in your original
discussion with him?
A I can't remember whether ha did.^
and so I don't know whether ha
referred to^^^Bor I was aware of the role
fi Was it your understanding that you were to raise
funds that were to be placed at the disposal of
Kut he is talking about
fi Had Colonal North indicated any particular part of
chat was to receive this money?
A Ko.
fi Ha had indicated it was to be for food and similar
purposes?
A Maliara activities, yas.
yNCUSSlFlEO
263
NAHE
1(496
11497
1U98
1499
1S00
1501
1502
1503
1504
1505
1506
1507
1508
1509
1510
151 1
1512
1513
151U
1515
1516
1517
1518
1519
1520
HIR2S3000
ONCUSSIFIED
PAGE 63
fi How long aftar your initial conversation with
Colonel North was your call to Hr . Slease?
A I can't remambaz.
Mora than a waak?
Obviously it wasn't months, but I don't remember,
Has this a faca-to-iaca conversation with Hr .
fi
A
S
Slease?
A
fi
A
I am almost certain it would hava been. yes.
Was this in y^ittsburgh?
No, I suspect it was In Washington. i rarely
P
travel to ylittsburgh, and so I think I have been in
P ^
Pittsburgh only once in iive years.
fi In any case, you believe it was a iace-to-face
conversation with nr . Slease?
A Yes.
fi Just the two of you?
A Yes.
fi He indicated he would help or would try to help?
A He was interested in principle, but he wished to
hear it from — this was something that was important for the
national interest.
fi Did you indicate a desire to obtain funds from Hr .
iJLri'U-;
;5!BE0
264
NAHE:
1521
1522
1523
1524
1525
1526
1527
1528
1529
1530
1531
1532
1533
153M
1535
1536
1537
1538
1539
15i«0
ism
15>42
15i«3
15)414
15U5
HIR253000
UNCUSSIFIED
PAGE 6t4
or one of his foundations?
A No. Now ara you asking me did I at that very
monent?
Q Yes.
A No, as a matter of fact, I recall specifically
discussing we were not going to ask Hr . St i ui^^ or any of the
f oundationyf or the funds .
S This was in the first conversation?
A I can't recall whether it was in the first or
subsequent conversation, but I suspect it was in the first.
S What was the reason for that?
A Hell, Mr. ffrayn had been very generous in
supporting a number of organizations, particularly the
National Strategy Information Center, and we thought that we
should ask other people for contributions.
Q In the initial discussion with tlr . Slease, was
there any comment about who else might be solicited?
A No, not to my recollection.
S After your conversation with Hr . Slease, then you
go back to Colonel North, and you report back you have found
someone who may help in the f und|'raising .
A Correct.
fi Did you also report back to Hr . Cannistraro?
A I can't recall. No, I don't think so.
a To the best of your recollection, it was, the
UNCLASSiREl
265
NAME ■
15U6
1547
1SU8
15149
1550
1551
1552
1553
1554
1555
1556
1557
1558
1559
1560
1561
1562
1563
1564
1565
1566
1567
1568
1569
1570
UNCLASSIFIED
HIR2S3000 ■■l«||| 14.1. Ill II II PAGE 65
second convarsation was just you and Colonel North?
A Yes.
2 And--
A Mr. Cannistraio wasn't there. You were asking
whether I ever told him I had subsequently found somebody
that might be interested. I can't remember that, but I know
that second conversation, my best recollection, it was with
North alone .
2 Did you tell hin that Mr. Slease wanted to meet
with Colonel North?
A Mr . Slease asked to meet not only with Colonel
North but he didn't know who Colonel North was in — don't
think he had ever heard the name, he wanted to have it irom
a more senior person in the National Security Council, and
so I suggested if Colonel North wanted to proceed, he had to
ask for a meeting with Hr . McFarlane for Hr . Slease to hear
from Kr . McFarlane this was an important thing to do.
2 At that time# what was Mr. HcFarlane's position?
A He was the Assistant to the President for National
Security.
2 This Is Robert McFarlane we are talking about?
A Yes.
fi Had you worked directly with Hr . McFarlane in your
role as a consultant to the NSC?
A Worked directly? Could you be more precise?
UNClOFe
266
1571
1572
1573
1S7U
1575
1576
1577
1578
1579
1580
1581
1582
1583
158(4
1585
1586
1587
1588
1589
1590
1591
1592
1593
159U
1595
HIR2S3000
yuciiSSifiEO
PAGE 66
2 In your work as a consultant, did you have
individual meetings with Mr. McFarlane?
A Rarely.
2 Did you prepare memoranda ior Mr. McFarlane?
A Yes, either directly or through Mr. De
Graff enreid ' s office or some other member of the staff.
2 Had you known Mr. HcFarlane before you became a
consultant to the NSC?
A I don't think so.
2 Had Hr . McFarlane had any association with the NSIC
that you are aware of?
A I think he knew Mr. Barnatt. He worked for Senator
Tower, I think, as a staffer on the Armed Services
Committee » I think he may have known Mr. Barnett. I don't
think I knew him at that time.
2 Do you know if Hr . ncTazlane at that time had any
association with Georgetown?
A Kot to my knowledge.
2 You were not aware of such an association?
A Right.
2 So your only association with Mr. HcFarlane had
ba«n through youz work at KSC.
A He had been an assistant to Hilliaa Clark, and so I
got to know him in that capacity.
2 You suggested to Colonel Korth that Hr . Slease
267
UNCUSSIFIED
MAFIE: HIR253000 l||ll|| Hl|l]|| II U PAGE 67
1S96
1597
1598
might be able to help, but thaie would have to be a raeeting
with Mr. rtcFarlane or someone of his statute.
A Right.
UNCLASSIFIED
268
NAHE:
1599
1600
1601
1602
1603
160(4
1605
16p6
1607
1608
1609
1610
1611
1612
1613
16114
1615
1616
1617
1618
1619
1620
1621
1622
1623
HIR253000
DCMK GLASSNAP
UNCUSS
PAGE 68
8 What was Colonel North's response?
A He said he would try to arrange such a meeting and
subsequently did.
8 He got back to you and said HcPailane is available?
A Tried to figure out even dates when Mr. Slease was
in Washington, yes.
8 And did you set up such a meeting?
A There was such a meeting. A combination of all of
us setting it up.
8 Did you maK« the call to rir . Slease?
A Yes.
8 The call to Ilr . rtcFarlane?
A No , I didn't make the call to McFarlane.
8 The call to Colonel North?
A Yes, sir.
8 And you sort of worked out the various schedules?
A Yes.
8 So everyone could get together for a meeting?
A Exactly.
8 Did you attend that meeting?
A X did.
8 Hho else attended?
A Morth. McFarlane. Slease and myself.
IINCUSSIFIED
269
162U
1625
1626
1627
1628
1629
1630
1631
1632
1633
163<4
1635
1636
1637
1638
1639
16K0
16141
16142
16143
16M(4
16145
16146
1647
16>48
HNWSSlfe
PAGE 69
HIR2S3000
2 And was that hald in tha National Security Council?
A In tha Situation Room.
2 In tha Situation Rooii?
A Yas, sit.
S Do you tacall tha data oi this maating?
A No .
Q How long did it last?
A Not vaiy long.
2 Undar 15 ninutas?
A Around that tina .
fi What do you zacall was said in that maating?
A Tha necassity ioz supporting]
e Who said what?
A nr . HcFarlana said that. Hz. HcFarlana did most of
tha talking.
fi And how did ha axplain tha nacassity oi supporting
A I an not avan sura I was paying that much attention
to that. It was a maating that was dasignad for Itr . Sleasa
to haar this, and I don't--but talk aboutH^^^^^^| and ha
axplainad that, within tha bounds now oi our unolassiiiad
discussion, that it was funds ior]
UNCUSSiflED
270
HknZ'
16149
1650
1651
1652
1653
165U
1655
1656
1657
1658
1659
1660
1661
1662
1663
166U
1665
1666
1667
1668
1669
1670
1671
1672
1673
HIR2S3000
Hz. Slaas* ask«d if he was. xi ha ware in fact able
to iind somabody who could do thxs> how would this ba done?
And ha was told that Colonel Koith knew how it could be
dona, he would instruct na as to how the nonay could
physically ba tzansiazred if such noney ware to become
available .
2 Was there any discussion at this meeting of the
mechanics of transferring the money?
A Ko, there was not.
2 It was left that Colonel Nozth could provide that
inf ozmation--
A Yes. six.
2 --later on?
A That is right.
2 What else was said at that meeting?
A That is all I recall.
2 What did Colonel North say?
A I can't recall him saying vezy such.
2 It was basically a presentation by Hr . HcFarlana?
A Yes. as I recall. He may have interjected pieces
oi — as I said, I didn't — I wasn't there to be briefed, so I
wasn't paying that much attention.
2 I take it there weren't any slides shown at this
UNCLAS!
IFIED
271
NAnE
1674
1675
1676
1677
1678
1679
1680
1681
1682
1683
1684
1685
1686
1687
1688
1689
1690
1691
1692
1693
1694
1695
. 1696
1697
1698
• mmiM
HIR253000 i|R^H«i aV- '^ .■'-l«5 PAGE 7 1
nesting?
A No, thaia ware no slidas.
2 What did Mr. Slease say?
A As I said, he listened, he asked some questions,
but then it was left he would think about whether he could
in fact do this, and he would get back to me, and then if
there was in fact somebody who was available to contribute,
then I would get in touch with Colonel North.
2 And what is the next discussion you recall with nr .
Slease after this meeting about this matter?
A He parted company, and we agreed ha would be back
in touch with ma if ha was able to be of assistance.
2 Did he get back in' touch with you?
A Yes. sir. and ha said ha had thought ha had one or
two potential donors, and how would one physically do this?
2 Did he identify the donors?
A I can't remember. It wasn't important to me in
that sense, because wa agreed it wasn't going to be Mr.
A
and I knew ha had many contacts in his personal life
with people who were wealthy and believed in worthy causes.
2 Did he identify the amount?
A No, it wasn't, ha knew we were talking here about
abova «20,000. Ha knew it was about «20,000 a year we
needed, obviously to ma I didn't have to ask him.
KR. SILBERT: You mean «20,000 a year?
272
HAHE :
1699
1700
170 1
1702
1703
1704
1705
1706
1707
1708
1709
1710
171 1
1712
1713
17 m
1715
1716
1717
1718
1719
1720
1721
1722
1723
HIR2S3000
iiNCUSsra
PAGE 72
THE WITNESS: A month.
BY HR. rRYHAH:
2 Had that $20,000 a month amount been discussed
again in the meeting with Ki . KcFailane?
A I don't recall it necessarily coming up there, but
X had informed him it was around that range; we weren't
talking about S100 and not «1 million.
2 He got back to you and indicated he might have a
contributor or contributors, but as far as you recall, he
didn't identify the contributors?
A Correct.
2 And he asked you for information about the
mechanics of transferring the money?
A Yes.
2 What did you do then?
A I went back to Korth and asked him how one would do
it.
2 Hhat did North say?
A He told me that there was a man who was able to do
this, he was discreet and reliable, and I should call him,
that he, Korth, would tell him to expect a call from me, a
man who I didn't know before. So he would say I was going
to call, and I did.
2 Hhat was the nan's name?
A Richard Killer.
UNCLASSinED
273
MAKE:
172M
1725
1726
1727
1728
1729
1730
1731
1732
1733
173U
1735
1736
1737
1738
1739
17H0
17141
1742
17M3
17t»i4
17t«5
17M6
1747
17U8
HIR253000
UMMSSIFIED
PAGE 73
8 He gave you a phone nurabec of rtt . Miller?
A Exactly.
C So you called Mr. Millez either the sane day or
shortly, or a day or so later?
A Yes.
2 And said, in substance. Colonel North asked rae to
call?
A Correct.
2 I am calling about —
A Wouldn't have said, would not have said over the
telephone what the subject was, but X said had he heard that
I was going to call you, and, yes, he agreed to get
together .
S And where did you meet with Hr . tliller?
A Hy recollection is that we met--to find a suitable
tine, ny recollection is we net in his office of Kational
Strategy Center and had a sandwich, that is my recollection.
fi This was the first time you had ever seen Richard
Hiller?
A Correct.
e What did he tell you at this first meeting?
A Kell. we discussed the only purpose of, the main
purpose of the meeting was to discuss the specifics of how
one would transfer the funds.
you discuss the <> ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^^^l
UNCliSSlFO
274
KAnz:
17U9
17S0
17S1
17S2
1753
nSM
1755
1756
1757
1758
1759
1760
1761
1762
1763
1764
1765
1766
1767
1768
1769
1770
1771
1772
1773
iNOUSSi"
HIR253000 w» » ■!»■■• ■^*'^». ■a.v p^Qj 7^
[for th«sa funds?
A Ko. I don't racall, it would hava baan
unnacessaxy .
2 Was tha discussion limited to the mechanics oi the
tiansiar?
A Yes. on that subject. We might have then later--ua
did later discuss othez nattetsAi^ Hz. Miller/ I was
intezested in what he did foz a living. He told me he had
some contacts with Nicazaguan deiectozs. and I, as an
academic, spent a lot of time with defectozs as a way of
undazstanding intelligence mattezs. There was a Kicaraguan
intelligence officer who had def ecteoyapparently ha had
access to> so we discussed my desize to meet him.
2 Did he tell you that ha had been involved in fund-
zaising campaigns?
A No. he didn't, that wasn't my intezest. I don't
focus on Amezican politics, it wasn't my interest.
2 It wasn't discussed?
A Not to my racollactlon.
2 Did ha mention Carl Channell?
A Ha did indicate to ma that ha had bean involved in
tha Republican (fampaign^ he told me that^ he went through
soma of his background. But wa didn't discuss tha specifics
of tha domestic political arena. He mentioned that there
was a Hz. Channall who would be a possible avenue foz
yNCUSSiRE!
275
NAME:
1771*
1775
1776
Mil
1778
1779
1780
1781
1782
1783
178M
1785
1786
1787
1788
1789
1790
1791
1792
1793
179^
1795
1796
1797
1798
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 75
H« mantlonad that.
iunneling tho monayl
fi Old ha volunteat that?
A I can't tenembat. I said I praiertad to deal--ha
was right thara, I knau hi»--ha gava na tha two options oi,
talked about tha--talkad about tha Institute for Korth/South
Affairs, which seamed like a very responsible organization.
fi Is that the Institute for North/South Issues?
A Could be, Horth/South/Korth.
2 Had you known of that organization before?
A I had only — I had some recollection that it had
received money from the National Endowment for Democracy,
that it was run by himself, he said, and former Deputy
Assistant Secretary of State, F^ank Gomez, and it was
involved in various educational activities in the region;
therefore was a tax-exempt organization and a number of
Congressmen and Senators sit on tha board of tha Hational
Endowment for Democracy. I assumed it was'
organization, it was responsible and could handle such a
thing .
Ma also indicated for someone who didn't want to do
It, tax contributions to a tax-exempt organization, there
was a bank account that he maintained, I think, in the
Cayman Islands and that he could give that number to anybody
who wanted to make a contribution to that who did not want
to, did not regard it a tax-deductible activity.
276
NAHE:
1799
1800
180 1
1802
1803
180M
I895
1806
1807
1808
1809
1810
181 1
1812
1813
181(4
1815
1816
1817
1818
1819
1820
1821
1822
1823
HIR2S3000
UNCUSSlFlcD
PAGE 76
2 At the time of this conversation, you had been
aware of the Institute for North/South Issues.
A I can't leroember, there are many organizations in
Washington, and I can't recall whether I was aware of it. I
certainly didn't know very much about it.
2 Had you known Frank Gomez?
A No.
8 Had you known of him?
A I mean, the name wasn't unfamiliar to me, but I
wouldn't have, didn't know him in any specific way.
Q As I understand your answer, Mr. Godson, in this
initial conversation with Hr . niller, he discussed at least
three alternative ways for transferring the funds: one
would be a contribution to an organization controlled by Mr.
Channell .
A Yes.
2 Two would be a contribution for the Institute for
Korth/South Issues; and as I understand from your answer,
both of those would be a tax-deductible contribution.
A I can't remember if the Channell — discussion about
Channell was, he was right there, he had the vehicles, why
did we have to bring in someone else? I was trying to limit
the numbers of people?
2 Hell, go back to my sumaary, the third alternative
was a direct transfer to the Cayman Island account —
ONCLASSIFIED
277
NAME:
182(«
1825
1826
1827
1828
1829
1830
1831
1832
1833
183>4
1835
1836
1837
1838
1839
18140
18141
18142
18(43
18>4U
18145
18146
18147
18148
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 77
A Yes. sir.
Q --that Hr . Millet controlled.
A Yes. sir.
2 Were there any alternative ways of transferring the
V
f und/discussed other than those three: The Channel
A
organization, the Institute for North/South Issues, and the
direct deposit to the Caynan Island account?
A I can't recall any others.
8 Has there any discussion of the Heritage Foundation
in this initial discussion —
A Ho.
2 --with Mr. Millet?
A No.
2 After this discussion with Mt . Miller, did you then
report back to Mr. Sleasa?
A Then. "»' repor t( back , I then informed him that I
found a vehicle, a way of doing this.
2 Did you explain the three altetnatives to Mt .
Slease ?
A Mo.
2 Which did you explain to him?
A Only told hin we had the tax-exempt institute, and
thsra was a non-tax-exempt way of doing it too. I didn't
give him. didn't discuss the othet thing^ .
2 Was thete a specific contributor and a specific
UNCUSSIFIED
278
HIR2S3000
UNCUSSIFIED
PAGE 78
NAME:
18U9 anount that were being discussed by you and Mr. Slease at
1850 this point?
1851 A Collapsing a lot of months together here, so I
1852 don't quite know at what point he told me that he had a
1853 specific contributor. I can't recall exactly which
185'« conversation lead to which.
1855 At one point, it became specific, and he said he
1856 had a specific contributor who wanted to make a
1857 contribution, ha wanted to make it to an institution that he
1858 knew by name, and that led to the discussion of the Heritage
1859 Foundation.
1860 2 Was that contributor aver identified to you?
186 1 A I don't recall at the time that he was.
1862 Subsequently ha was.
1863 2 Did Mr. Slease develop contributions from two
186(4 separate contributors?
1865 A Presumably, ha was involved with several. I don't
1866 know. I don't know exactly how he want about making these
1867 solicitations, I was never involved.
1868 2 Do you recognize the name Herbert Sarness?
1869 A No.
1870 fi Are you aware that Hr . Barness made a contribution?
1871 A Z don't recall the nana. I don't recall the name.
1872 2 Are you aware of any contributions that Hr . Slease
1873 solicited that were deposited directly to the Cayman Island
UNCLASSIFIED
279
NAME :
1874
1875
1876
1877
1878
1879
1880
1881
1882
1883
188U
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890
1891
1892
1893
1894
1895
1896
1897
1898
HIR2S300
account?
ICUSSIFIED
PAGE 79
A No, I gave him tha Cayraan's account number, Mr.
liillei gave me the number, I gave it to Mr. Slease, and I
don't know what happened after that.
2 You gave him the name of the account?
A I think it is a number. I don't recall. I think
it uas a number. I was completely unfamiliar with hou to
deal with these accounts, and so I just gave him whatever
information Miller gave me, the initial or the number,
whatever it was. I gave it to Mr. Slease.
2 And did you instruct Mr. Slease that he was to ber.d
any contribution payable to such an account directly to Mr.
Millar, or did you instruct him to sand it to you or
something else?
A I didn't instruct him to send it to me. I don't
remember how--I don't remember how that part of the mechanics
worked .
2 Did you give Mr. Slaasa Mr. Miller's name or
telephone number or address?
A Ko, I didn't glva hin that Information. I don't
racall avar giving him that.
2 But you ballava you gave him either tha name of the
Caynan^ account or tha number?
A I know I did that, partially because I know I went
to another phone in casa--thare was no reason at this--so I
wmm
280
NAME:
1899
1900
1901
1902
1903
19014
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
19 10
1911
1912
1913
1914
1915
1916
19 17
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 80
told him I would call him at another time and give him a
number and name and the number, that is it, of the account
unrelated to that phone conversation.
2 You gave him the name oi the Institute for
North/South Issues?
A And I gave him the name of the Institute for
North/South Issues .
Q It is your recollection you did not mention Mr.
Channell or any of his organization?
A Correct.
S The reason you did not was what?
A Well, there was no need. In other words, in my own
mind, it was their Institute, North/South seemed like a
responsible operation to me, and there was another account
which I thought relatively few people would be interested in
using, the Cayman Island account, but I gave him what was
necessary rather than expand on it.
2 Had you known of Kz . Channell at the time of this
discussion?
A Vaguely, but — vaguely.
2 You never met him?
A Not to my knowledge.
S It Is your recollection that Ifr . Slease did not
transmit to you any funds to be given to Mr. Miller?
1.
A That he physically gave ma:
UNCLASSIFIED
281
NAME:
192U
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
19m
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
HIR2S3000 **i^UiLr»V
2
A
Q
A
^i« iLU
PAGE 81
He didn't send you a check?
Correct.
Or anything to transfer to Mr. Miller?
That is correct.
You indicated that you received another call iron
nr . Slease where he indicated that he had a contributor who
wanted to give money to a more-established foundation, is
that your recollection?
A Foundation that he was familiar with. yes.
2 Did he identify a particular foundation?
A I think he said Heritage, but I can't recall the
specifics, whether it was Slease suggested it to the
contributor or the contributor to Slease, but I don't
recall .
S But in this conversation that you recall with Mr.
Slease/* there was a mention of a Heritage Foundation.
A Yes.
2 And am I correct in understanding that you are not
the one who suggested the Heritage Foundation?
A I think that is correct. I think it was Hr .
Slease. but I don't recall.
2 So it may have been you.
A It could have been.
2 What had been your association with the Heritage
Foundation, if any?
UNCUSSinED
282
NAME:
19U9
1950
1951
1952
1953
195U
1955
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
196(4
1965
1966
1967
1968
1969
1970
1971
1972
1973
HIR253000
iiNCU5o.r:uD
PAGE 82
A Association? A quick definition, please. I am not
a member of it, I don't get money fzom it, I don't work foe
it, I am not associated with it in any formal way. Have I
attended a seminar, yes, yes, I have known Hr . Feulner for
many years, yes.
2 By Mr. Feulner, you are referring to Ed Feulner in
his title as President?
A I am not sure either.
S He, in effect, is the person who runs the Heritage
2
Foundation on a day-to-day basis.
A that is my understanding.
2 You have known him for a number of years?
A Correct.
2 Had you ever received any grants from the Heritage
Foundation?
A
2 Yes.
A Mo.
2 Let's start personally.
A Personally, no.
2 Had MSIC?
A Not to my knowledge.
2 Had any other foundation with which you are
associated?
A I don't know.
personally?
r
mmw.
283
HIR2S3000
UNCUSSIFIED ..
GE 83
NAHE:
1971* 2 Had you previously been involvad in participating
1975 in any way with solicitation o± donations for tha Heritage
1976 Foundation?
1977 A No.
"''S 2 What was the discussion with Hr . Sleasa about using
1979 the Heritage Foundation for this contribution that he had in
1980 mind?
1981 A Wasn't much. It was that Heritage, that donor
1982 would be, was potentially interested in giving the money to
1983 the Heritage Foundation and tha^^ritage Foundation, in
198M turn, could than give it to the Institute for North/South
1985 Issues, that was all.
1986 2 Has it left that you would contact Mr. Feulner
1987 about this?
1988 A No, that he first would contact Mr. Feulner.
1989 2 nr. Slease would?
1990 A yes, sir, and then I would follow up.
199 1 2 Did you know whether or not Hr . Slease knew Mr.
1992 Feulner?
1993 A I assumed he did. It never entered into my mind
1994 that ha didn't.
1995 2 How, you say you were to follow up. What did you
1996 understand that to mean?
1997 A I was to call Mr. Feulner to discuss the specifics.
1998 2 Were you to explain to Mr. Feulner about the
UNCLASSIFIED
284
KAHE:
1999
2000
200 1
2002
2003
20014
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
201 1
2012
2013
201M
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
HIR253000
UNClASS'irlED
PAGE 8U
conversations with Mr. HcFarlane and Colonel North?
A Kot those specifically, but the principle that the
Government of the United States thought this was a good
idea, because we were, they were acting consistent with what
the Government of the United States would want to have
happen.
2 Did you have a subsequent conversation with Hr .
Feulner ?
A Yes.
2 What did you tell hin in that conversation?
A Just what I said that it was. Mr. Slease had
already talked to him. so Hr . Feulner was about to leave for
a long time, he didn't have much time, it was the end of the
day. it was very short, relatively a very short meeting, he
knew who the recipients, intended recipients of the fund
were, he knew that it would be transferred to another, the
idea was to transfer to another foundation, and he just
asked me to give him the name of the foundation, to either
give it to him. the address right to him, or to speak to Mr.
Trulock. who was I think whatever the person who deals with
these--Exeoutive Vice President, or something else, there was
another. Hx. Trulock was the person who was to handle the
contact with the Institute.
2 Hr . Trulock is with the Heritage Foundation?
A Yes, he is either Executive Vice President, some
vmssim
285
MAKE:
202U
2025
2026
2027
20281
2029
2030
2031
2032
2033
203(4
2035
2036
2037
2038
2039
20(40
20(41
20(42
20(43
20(4(4
20U5
20(46
20(47
20(48
HIR253000
ONCLASSiriza
PAGE 85
offlcai oi th« H«tltag« Foundation.
fi Khan you say you aKplainad tha putposa of tha
contributions, do you mean that you axplainad that thasa
funds uara to ba ttansfetted
A Absolutaly.
2 And that transfer was to ba dona through an
indirect route? By that. I iiean it was to be a transfer
from the Heritage Foundation to the Institute for
Horth/South Issues, and than tha Institute would arrange for
t r a n s f a r ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V
A Correct.
a You explained all this to Hr . Feulner?
A Correct. And further that this was a confidential
transaction, that knowledge about this was to be limited.
fi And did you explain that this had been discussed at
high levels within the Kational Security Council?
A I don't recall any discussion like that, just the
other, because I assuned Hr . Slaase had already prepared Hr .
Feulner for this.
e Hhat did Hr. Feulner indicate that he had learned
fron Hz. Sleasa?
A I don't know.
e you don't recall?
A I don't zaoall.
ONcussife
286
./
I
NAHr= HIR2S3000 v-- pjgi gg-
20U9 e Do you t«caH mantioning Hr . HcFatlana's name or
2050 Colonal North's nam« in tha conversation?
2 051 A I don't.
2052 8 How is it your understanding that a contribution
2053 was made to the Heritage Foundation that was than
205'* transierred to the Institute ior North/South Issues?
2,055 A Yes.
2056 2 Hou did you learn that?
2057 A I don't remember the precise circumstances how Z
2058 learned it> but at some point I gave Trulock the name of
2059 niller, I spoke to Killer and suggested that he write,
2060 request a grant from the Heritage Foundation, and so it just
206 1 happened, I assumed it happened, at that point. I was not a
2062 party to Miller's drafting of a request, I just suggested he
2063 would write a request to the Foundation to ask for it.
206U 2 Oo you know if this request discussedj
2065 ^H^f
2066 A Ho, I don't know what was in it, the terms of the
2067 request.
2068 e Old you ever see the request?
2069 A X certainly didn't at that time, can't remember
2070 whether X subsequently have seen something. I think that
207 1 the committee released to the press, or as an exhibit,
2072 something about the exchange of correspondency vas , I am
2073 pretty sure this committee released to the newspapers when
mm
fifvnv^
W .s <tf 1 Ki.
287
NAME:
207U
2075
2076
2077
2078
2079
2080
2081
2082
2083
208U
2085
2086
2087
2088
2089
2090
2091
2092
2093
209U
2095
2096
2097
2098
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 87
Congressman Fascell asked questions about this subject.
That same day I got a call from--! was on :ury duty, there
were calls from the press, and I think I sau a copy of an
exchange of correspondence betueen Miller and Heritage,
which I had not seen before.
2 You had not been aware of that before?
A I had been aware there must have been some kind of
exchange .
2 You hadn't been aware of the substance of the
exchange ?
A That is right.
2 Here you aware of the identity of the donor to th£.
Heritage Foundation?
A I subsequently became aware of it.
2 At what time?
A Sometime after, I can't say exactly when. Sometime
after.
2 Did you learn that from Hr . Slease?
A Yes, six.
2 Who did he tell you was the donor?
A Z think the name is Mr. Donahue.
2 Did he tell you the amount of the donation?
A I can't remember. He said it was a substantial
contribution.
2 Did you discuss with Colonel North your
CWCUSSIf/ffl
288
NAME:
2099
2100
2101
2102
2103
210U
2105
2106
2 107
2108
2 109
2110
211 1
21 12
2113
21 1<4
2115
21 16
21 17
21 18
2119
2120
2121
2122
2123
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 88
arrangements with respect to the involvement of the Heritage
Foundation?
A I don't recall. No, I don't think I did. I don't
recall discussing the details of this any more about, of
those kinds of details.
2 Did you report to Colonel North that Mr. Slease had
arranged a substantial contribution?
A Mr. Slease asked if Mr. Donahue had made a
contribution, could he receive a letter just indicating that
the Government of the United States was aware that he had
supported something, this was not a free-lance operation or
fund-raising, after all, he wouldn't receive detailed
accounting of exactly how, he couldn't publicly discuss this
and check it out through the normal procedures. So he asked
for some indication that he was acting supportive of
national interest.
S And what did you do in response to that request?
A I can't remember whether Slease suggested it or I
suggested it, but we thought the best thing was to get a
note froB tha President of the United States thanking him
for his general support.
fi Did you get such a note?
A I did ask North if such a note could be obtained, I
didn't know whether it could be obtained, I asked him if he
could do it, and I understand he did do it.
UNCLASSIFIED
289
NAriE-
212*4
2125
2126
2 127
2128
2129
2130
2131
2132
2133
213U
2135
2136
2137
2 138
2139
21U0
21141
21<42
21<43
2mM
21t45
21<46
2147
21U8
HIR253000
yNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 89
2 Did you ever see the note?
A I can't--I may have, I can't reraambet. I think I
did. but I am not sura.
2 But in connection with this note, you do not recall
any discussion with Colonel North about Kaxitaga foundation--
A Mo.
2 --being the vehicle for this transfer?
A No , I don't. It was unnecessary to discuss it with
him.
2 Are you awara of any other contributions that Hr .
Slaase arranged?
A Well, Mr. Slaase asked me to meet John, Mr. John -
Hirtle, and I asked for him to be introduced to North, so
that North could explain the purpose of tha activity, and I
did introduce, arrange to meet Hr . Hirtle, who I had not met
before, and I introduced him to North.
2 Did Mr. Hirtle coma to Washington to your office,
or did you meet him at the White House?
A I think I mat him at the White House.
2 Then you attended a meeting?
A Another brief meeting with North.
2 Ware the matters discussed similar to the subject
matt«x of tha meeting that tlr . North or that Colonel North
and Mr. tlcFarlana had had with Mr. Slaase?
A Wasn't vary different, but, again, I wasn't paying
UNCLASSIFIED
290
KAME: HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED ^». ^<
21U9
2150
2151
2152
2153
21514
2155
2156
2157
2158
2159
2160
2161
that nuch attantlon. I may hav* baan on tha phona mysalf, I
may hava baan writing sonathing, it wasn't nacassary ioi ma
to haar tha sama material briaiing, so I don't think I was
paying a graat daal of attention.
Q Tha subjact mattar was tha naad ofl
A Absolutely.
--^^^^^^^^^^H f or
A Right.
S Mr. rtcFarlana did not participate in this meeting?
A Correct.
2 It was just Colonel North and you and Mr. Hirtla?
A Correct.
ONCUSSlflEP
291
NAnE
2162
2163
2 1614
2165
2 166
2167
2168
2169
2 170
2 171
2172
2173
2 174
217S
2176
2 177
2178
2 179
2180
2181
2182
2183
218>4
2185
2186
HIR2S3000
RPTS CAHTOR
DCHK HILTON
M2M5 1
PAGE
91
SIFIEO
2 Do you knoM if Hr . Hirtle undertook any efforts to
raise funds after this neeting with Colonel North?
A No, I think he did.
2 How do you know that?
A I think he told me, Slease told me.
2 Do you know if he raised any funds?
A I think he did. One day a check arrived at my
office at the National Strategy Information Center made out.
I think, to the Institute for North-South Issues, from a
person whom I didn't know.
2 Do you recall the amount of the check?
A No, I don't. I then called Mr. Hiller and asked
him to come and pick up the check.
2 And I take it he did so?
A Yes.
2 And is that the only contribution that you believe
was generated by Hr . Hirtle's efforts?
A I generally have a feeling that there were some
others, but I don't know. I didn't know anything about it.
2 Do you recall if the contribution was from an
individual named Macaleer?
UNCUSSIFiEO
292
HIR2S3000
UNCUSSIrl[D
PAGE
92
NAMK
2187 A I'm sorry, I just don't rftmsnbar.
2188 2 Had you told Hz. Hlrtla to hava any contributions
2189 directad to tha Instituta ior North-South Issues?
2190 A Yes, I had told hin about both methods. There uas
2191 an account, and there was the Instituta.
2 192 a Had you told him that at the time oi his meeting
2193 with Colonel North?
219U A No.
2 19S 2 When did you tell him that?
2 196 A At some subsequent time that ha indicated he could
2197 in fact do something. I can't recall — I can't say I didn't,
2198 certainly not in the presence oi Colonel North. V» would
2199 have had the meeting with him and then wa want outside.
2200 Whether I did it at that particular juncture or at a
2201 subsequent time, I don't recall.
2202 2 Did Colonel North ask Hr . Hirtla to raise funds for
2203 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■i'l your
220ii A I don't know tha formulation. I can't recall the
2205 formulation. There was a discussion of the need to support
2206 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand as earlier,
2207 know that Z was paying that much attention. I was probably
2208 doing, as I frequently do at meetings, I would be on the
2209 phona and sometimes writing things myself, so I don't recall
2210 tha formulation.
2211 2 Going back to tha meeting with Hz. HcFarlana and
MmSE
293
2212
2213
221<4
2215
2216
2217
2218
2219
2220
2221
2222
2223
222tt
2225
2226
2227
2228
2229
2230
2231
2232
2233
223>4
2235
2236
;LASS!F!ED ■■■
HIR253000 IIIUI.I U_^_^NI SP 91 PAGE 93
Colonal North with Hr . Slaasa, do you r«call •ither Hr .
NcFailana oz Colonel North asking nr . Slaasa to rals* funds
for ^^^
A I don't ramambar It statad that way. I racall a
nac03Sity> discussing tha purposa, why that it was
important .
S Going back to your original conversation with
Colonal North, am I correct in understanding that Colonel
North did ask you to assist in raising funds for,
A Yes.
Q Old nr . ncfarlana also ask you to do that?
A No.
Q And the only specific contribution that you are
aware o^ that nr . Hirtle or that you believe Hr . Hirtle
solicited was this one check that arrived at your office
payable to the Institute for North-South Issues?
HR. SILBZRT: Can I hear that question again,
please?
(The reporter read the record as requested.]
nt. SILBERT: There are two different tests there.
One is aware and one is believe. I don't know if you
intended it to be synonymous.
BY HR. fRYHANi
fi Let me rephrase the question. Do you have any
294
mmmis ....
Hint- HIR253000 tCIWIJi nalllll II II PAGE 9C4
2237 iniocnation indicating that Mr. Hirtia was tasponslbla for
any ^'^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H ^'^^^^ than tha
2239 check that you have described that arrived at your ofiice?
22<40 A No. I can't recall any.
22'4 1 S Did you contact a.iyone other than Hr . Slease and
Hirtle funds ^<>>=I^^^^|^^^^^^^^^H ^^
22M3 response to the request by Colonel North?
22UM (Witness and counsel confer.]
2245 THE WITKESS = I'a sorry. I forgot the question.
2246 (The reporter read the record as requested.]
22M7 THE WITNESS: I'm not saying I contacted Hr . Hirtle.
22>t8 I can't recall whether I contacted Hirtle. I didn't know
221(9 Mr. Hirtle to start with. Slease--! believe I nay have asked
2250 him to call me or he may have called me and asked me to call
2251 Hirtle, just to clarify the record.
2252 I, of course, discussed this with Hr . Feulner. I
2253 can't recall any other conversations. I was trying to
225U minimize the number of people who were involved in this.
2255 BY HR. FRyHAK:
2256 fi The conversation with Hi. Fuelner that you have
2257 described concerns the mechanism for the transfer of the
2258 funds that were to be donated by Hr . Donahue. Did you have
2259 any other conversation with Hr. feulner about raising funds
2260 for^^^
2261 HR. SILBERT: Hy only problem with the question. I
UNCLASSIFIED
295
2262
2263
226U
2265
2266
2267
2268
2269
2270
2271
2272
2273
22714
2275
2276
2277
2278
2279
2280
2281
2282
2283
228<4
2285
2286
UNCLASSIFIED »
HIlt2S3000 IIIVIII M.l.'?i9l HI 11 PAGE 95
don't think you lnt«nd«d It, I don't think that Mr. Godson
indicatad ha was awata that whan ha talkad to Faulnaz who
tha contributor was, and part oi your quastion may be taken
to assuma that ha did. I don't think you intended it that
way, but I just wanted to make sure the record is clear that
we are not assuming something that is not in evidence.
BY HR. FRYMAK:
fi With that understanding. Hi. Godson, can you answer
the question?
A I'm sorry .
C Let me phrase it again. Other than the
conversation with Hr . Feulner that you have described about
the mechanics oi transferring the contribution that was
being arranged by Hr . Sleasa. did you have any additional
conversations with Hr . Teulner with respect to the raising
oC iunds for]
A Other than that it was a generally good idea. I
mean, we discussed it that it was a generally good idea, but
I don't recall a speciiio conversation about that. There
wasn't much time. Ha was pressed.
8 Did you ask Hr . reulnez to undertake any fund-
raising efforts?
A Z can't recall whether I did, but I wouldn't be
surprised if I had said, obviously, you know, can you help
too? I mean, it would have been consistent with my views
UNCLASSIFIED
296
KANE:
2287
2288
2289
2290
2291
2292
_ 2293
229U
2295
2296
2297
2298
2299
2300
2301
2302
2303
230>4
2305
2306
2307
2308
2309
2310
231 1
UNCLASSIFIED
Do you know an individual naned ScoV^^Hillttr ?
HIR253000 liilSia d^a'^^^lH H H PAGE 96
about this, but I don't racall tha spaclflcs.
S Do you hava any iniornation with laspact to whather
or not ha did?
A Ko, I don't.
S
A Yas.
e How did you naat Hr . Millar?
A Through Mr. Slaasa.
2 What was tha occasion whan you mat Hr . Hiller?
A I think tha iirst tine X aat Hr . Hillax was in
Switzerland, when I was attending a naating in Switzerland
about a subject which is completely irrelevant to tha
subject matter hare oi this investigation.
2 Were you aware that Mr. Hiller worked with Hr .
Hirtla?
A Yes, I was.
2 Did you hava any iniormation about any involvement
by Scot/Hillar in tha fund-raising efforts by Kr . Hirtle?
A Pertaining to|
2 Yas.
A Ko information whatsoever.
2 Were you ever told that Scot/'l^^l*^ ^-^^ bean
involved in tha fund-raising efforts?
A Ko.
2 With John Klrtle?
mmmiB
297
NAnz-
2312
2313
231U
2315
2316
2317
2318
2319
2320
2321
2322
2323
232K
2325
2326
2327
2328
2329
2330
2331
2332
2333
233>4
2335
2336
HIK2S3000 ilf\l»'8 /J VV 'Is ill " = ' '^
A Ho.
HR. SILBERT: You a«an tha iund-ialslng affotts for
BY HR. rRYHAK:
S Yas, tha iund-talsing aiiozts that wa hava baan
discussing .
A Right.
fi So tha iirst tima you mat ScoyHillaz was in
Switzerland?
A Corract.
e And this was a maating that Hz. Slaasa azzangad?
A I don't Know if ha arrangad it. I think tlz . Hillar
was in Switzarland. I was tha£a> and it was tha first tima
wa wara probably in tha sama city.
S Had you Known in advanca that Sco^ Millar was going
to ba thara?
A Yas . X maan> ha doas businass in Switzarland, and
rtr . Slaasa had told ma ha was thara and that ha might ba
intarastad in attanding soma of tha actlvitias that I was
involvad in uhloh hava nothing to do with Cantral Amarica.
e Do you know raith Hhlttlasay?
A Yas.
fi Had you Known Mrs. Hhittlasay during tha tima that
sha Korkad in tha Hhita Housa?
A Yas. I had.
298
NAHE:
2337
2338
2339
23(40
23m
23142
23143
' 231414
23M5
23U6
23147
23U8
23149
2350
2351
2352
2353
23514
2355
2356
2357
2358
2359
2360
2361
HIR253000 IJSTSII9! t^ftl^iiat! QS 01 PAGE 98
S And at that time you were a consultant to the
National Security Council?
A Correct.
S And she later becane Ambassador to Switzerland, is
that correct?
A Correct.
2 And you continued to know her in that capacity?
A Correct.
2 Did you ever have any discussion with Mrs.
Whittlesey about raising funds for any purpose relating to
Nicaragua or Central America?
A In the years — raising funds relating to
Nicaragua--Central America is to me a big subject. If you
are asking about raising funds in any way to do with the
contras, no. I mean. I never had any conversation with her
to my recollection about that.
2 But you do recall conversations that would be
responsive to the broader question that I raised?
A As I recall, I may have had conversations with hez
in 1982-83, in around that period, I mean in that tine,
about educational programs about American foreign policy
including Central America. She was in charge of the Office
of Public Liaison and so she was in contact with a lot of
groups, and I probably had conversations with her. I could
have had conversations with her about that, and I think it's
*(^ss/fa
299
HAME; HIR253000
ONCLffiSiRta
PAGE 99
2362 liK«ly but I don't racall th« specifics of it.
"NCWSSIflffl
300
2363
236t4
2365
2366
2367
2368
2369
2370
2371
2372
2373
237M
2375
2376
2377
2378
2379
2380
2381
2382
2383
238M
2385
2386
2387
PAGE 100
HIR2S3000
RPTS CANTOR
DCKN SUINTERO
2 During tha pariod when shtt was Aitbassador to
Suitzeiland. did you evaz hava any convezsation or
correspondenca with har concerning the raising oi funds
related to Nicaragua or Central Anarica?
A No.
2 During the time that sha was ambassador, you
attended a nunber of meetings and dinner at the embassies in
Switzerland; did you not?
A I attended two.
fi Did these two meetings relate in any way or involve
in any way the raising of funds for]
or Central America?
A Absolutely not.
fi Has one of the parsons who attended one of these
meetings Sir James Goldsmith?
A Ha did.
e Oo you hava any knouladga of any effort to obtain
contributions from Sic Jamas Goldsmith?
A Ho.
fi Relating to|
A No.
Khan you said]
assume wa aza talking about fund raising fc
UNCu:
301
NAHE
2388
2389
2390
2391
2392
2393
23914
2395
2396
2397
2398
2399
2U00
2<(01
2U02
2U03
2>40i4
2U05
2U06
2«407
2U08
2(409
2mo
2411
2<412
KIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PkGE 101
That is what you nean by that?
HR. rRYHAN: Ofiica the iscord.
[Discussion oii th« racotd.l
MR. rRYHAK: Back on tha lacoid.
BY HR. rRYHXH:
Q Ki . GodsoH/ do you hava any information, or are you
auara of any information concarning attempts to obtain
contributions by Sir Jamas Goldsmit>
for tha resistance forces in Nicaragua, or
any public education or lobbying campaign in tha United
States relating to Nicaragua?
A I an unaware of any such.
Do you knoM Arturo Cruz?
That Is sanior?
Yes.
Yes.
Are you aware that he raeeived funds at some point
from the National Strategy Information Center?
nt. SILBERT' Just for the record, although this was
not one of the subjects we understood to be the area of
inquiry today, Nr . fryman, because It happened to be tha one
area that we thought might be germane to Mr. Godson's
inquiry, we did prepare on that, and we axe prepared to
respond to your questions on that.
Q
A
A
Q
UNCLAS;
302
NAME =
21413
zmu
2U15
2(416
2U 17
2(418
2(419
2(420
2(421
2U22
2(423
2U2(4
2U25
2(426
2427
2(428
2(429
2(430
2(431
2U32
2(433
2(43U
2(435
2(436
2(437
HIR2S3000
llNMSSffl
PAGE 102
THE WITNESS : Yes, I am aware that he was a research
fellow at the National Strategy Information Center, ior six
months .
BY HR. FRYMAN:
2 What period of time was this?
A I can't recall exactly, in '8(4 or '85.
2 Do you recall how much money he received?
A I think it was in the area of «(40,000.
2 Do you know why he was--
A He was paid *(40,000 before taxes.
2 Do you know why he was retained by the National
Strategy Information Center in that capacity.
A He was an outstanding intellectual/ who the National
Strategy Information Center thought could contribute to
public understanding of events transpiring in Nicaragua,
especially as he had been involved in Nicaraguan political
affairs and had been ambassador, and had written extensively
about the subject.
2 Was it your suggestion that he be retained.
A It was my suggestion initially.
e Initially?
A To Frank Barnett?
S Had you ever discussed that idea with Colonel North?
A Yes.
2 Did Colonel North make that suggestion to you, that
UNCLASSIFIED
303
HAHE
2U38
2t(39
2t4>40
214 m
2UU2
214U3
2i4i4<4
24145
2M146
2UI47
2(4 148
214149
21450
21451
2(452
21453
214514
2455
2(456
2(457
2((58
21459
21460
21461
2U62
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 103
Hz. Cruz be zatain«d by tha NSIC?
A He and Vincent Cannistraro had a conversation with
rae about this one day and said that Aztuzo Czuz was looking
for raeaningful uozk and wanted to wzite, and asked uhethez I
knew of a foundation oz a center uheze he could do that.
2 So that convezsation with Colonel Nozth and Hz.
Cannistzazo is what pzompted youz zecommendation to the
NSIC; is that correct?
A Just one second.
[Witness confers with counsel.]
THE WITNESS: Yes. They initiated the idea, but I
also thought, I mean myself, that this would be a useful
thing. I have read some of Mr. Cruz' articles in scholarly
publications, intellectual magazines, and thought ht> wsulJ
make an interesting person to have as a research fellow.
BY MR. FRYHAN:
S Did you discuss the retention of Mr. Cruz with
anyone else inside the United States Sovernment other than
Colonel North and Mr. Cannistraro?
A Not to my recollection.
Did you discuss it with Mr. Casey?
Ho.
2
A
S
A
With Walt KmMnn
A
No. What I wanted to add there was I can't say
later on when he was a fellow I may have mentioned it to
UNCLASSIFIED
304
21463
21465
2(466
2 4 6 7
2t4 68|
214 6 9
2 4 7 01
2471
2472!
2473
2474
2475
2476
2477
2478
2479
2480
2481
2482
2483
2484
2485
2486
2487
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 104
Walt Ranon that ha was a iellou.
I can't say I didn't say I didn't say it at a latat point,
but I didn't discuss it with anyona alsa bafota I discussed
it with Hr. Barnatt at KSIC and decided to offer hin —
KSIflEO
305
HARE'
2t488
2M89
24 90
249 1
2(492
2<493
2t(9U
2U9S
2>496
21497
2>498
2499
2500
2501
2502
2503
250(4
2505
2506
2507
2508
2509
2510
251 1
2512
2 Waia you satisfied with th« work that Hr . Cruz
performed in connection with the grant he received from the
NSIC?
A Regrettably we were not.
2 Did it surprise you that his work was not
satisfactory?
A Yes. it did.
2 Ue have talked, Hr . Godson, about the National
Strategy Information Center, which I take it is a nonprofit
organization.
A Nonpartisan, tax-exempt^ educational organization.
2 Are you associated with any other nonprofit
organizations?
A When you say ''associate with'"?
2 Let ma narrow it down. Have you formed any
organizations yourself?
A In this last year, '8b-'67 i did iOUt a new
organization. That is the wrong term.
Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.]
II
D
306
NAnE =
2513
251t(
2515
2516
2517
2518
2519
2520
2521
2522
2523
252>)
2525
2526
2527
2528
2529
2530
2531
2532
2533
253U
2535
2536
2537
HIR253000
yNCLASSIFIED
MR. FRYHAN: On the record.
PAGE 106
THE WITNESS: I have been involved in setting up,
reiurbishing / i£ you will, an older but turning it into a
new tax-exempt organization in this past calendar year.
BY nH. rRYHAK:
2 What is the name of that organization?
A I think it is Institute ior International Affairs,
or Studies, or something.
2 And your involvement in that began in 1987?
A '86. I think.
2 Uithin the last 12 months?
A Yes.
2 Other than that organization, have you been involved
in the establishment or the reformulation of any other
nonprofit organizations?
A Over my lifetime?
2 Let's say within the last three years?
A Hot to my recollection. No, I don't think so.
2 Have you had control over the bank account of any
other nonprofit organization within the last--
A By ''other,'* you are referring to this new
institute?
2 By ''other,'' I an referring to anything other than
this new institute, and I am also including NSIC.
A I want to be very clear. I have no control.
UNCU;
OIH
f-T if
307
«AME:
2538
2539
2540
2541
25142
25U3
2SUU
2545
25U6
2547
25M8
2549
2550
2551
2552
2553
2554
2555
2556
2557
2558
2559
2560
2561
2562
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 107
I am not an ofiicer of NSIC. I am not a director of NSIC.
I an a part-tima director, that is it is in nane only, so
that is somebody who is identified as the director. I have
no control of the bank accounts of HSIC or of any other
organization other than this newly formed institute, and I
am not even sure if I have control of the bank account
there .
2 And you have not had within the last three years?
A No.
2 I have a few other questions relating or associated
with Colonel North's chart, which is Exhibit 2. He were
talking earlier, Hr . Godson, about a youth conference that
was held in Jamaica in 1985. Did you attend that
conference?
A I did.
2 Did you have any responsibility in connection with
the conference?
A Could you define responsibility for me, please?
2 Let me rephrase the question. What was your role in
that conference?
A I was asked to attend the Jamaica International
Youth Conference, by Kelly Alexander, who was the President
of the USIYVC, the sane organization, it should be U.S.
International Youth Year Commission.
Mr. Cone was chairman of the governing board. Kelly
"Nwssife
308
2563
25614
2565
2566
2567
2568
2569
2570
2571
2572
2573
257t4
2575
2576
2577
2578
2579
2580
2581
2582
2583
2S6^
2585
2586
2587
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 108
Alexander was the elected president oi the organization. I
was asked to travel to Jamaica to be a consultant or adviser
to hira . And I was also asked by the Minister of Youth of
Jamaica if I would attend, to be available, should he have
any questions for me.
Q Who was the Minister of Youth of Jamaica?
A Erol Anderson.
2 How is that spelled?
A Anderson, you know.
2 And when were you originally asked to participate or
to be involved in this conference?
A I can't recall exactly which month.
2 Oo you recall the year?
A 1985.
2 The conference was held in April of 1985?
A Yes.
2 And it is your recollection you had no role in that
conference prior to 1985?
HK. SILBERT: I really have a problem with this. He
didn't say that he had no role.
You asked the question. You asked him how he happened to
attend, and he responded to it.
KK. rRYHAK: I think I asked, him. Hr . Sllbert. what
was his role in the conference.
HR. SILBERT: You asked him his responsibilities and
UNCLASSIFIED
309
NAME:
2588
2589
2590
2591
2592
2593
2594
2595
2596
2597
2598
2599
2600
2601
2602
2603
26014
2605
2606
2607
2608
2609
2610
261 1
2612
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 109
he asked you to clarify that and you said you would rephrase
th« question and you asked how he happened to attend, and he
responded Kelly Alexander asked hin to attend.
MR. FRYHAH: If the repor ^""could go back and read
the question and answer relating to Hr . Godson's original
involvement in the conference in Jamaica?
[Buestion and answer read.l
BY HR. FRYMAH:
2 Mr. Godson, the repor^has read a prior question and
answer. I had asked you what your role was in that
conference, and you had responded that you were asked to
attend by Hr . Alexander, and then a subsequent answer you
indicated that that request occurred in 1985, and i»y follow-
up question is did you have any role in that conference
prior to 1985.
MR. SILBERT: I would like to hear a pro^^fer as to
the materiality of that to House Resolution 12, and then I
will try to make an assessment as to whether I think it is
germane to the inquiry.
MR. FRYMAN: It is very simple, Hr . Silbert.
Exhibit 2 is in front of you, and I think questions relating
to the Jamaica conference and Mr. Godson's role in that
conference and the International Youth Year activities are
relevant, and I would ask Mr. Godson to answer the question.
MR. SILBERT: If you have more pointed questions
UNCIASSIHED
310
2613
261U
2615
2616
2617
2618
2619
2620
2621
2622
2623
26214
2625
2626
2627
2628
2629
2630
2631
2632
2633
263K
2635
2636
2637
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 110
that relate to Exhibit 2. X thin|(Whey axe relevant. We are
fast approaching the end of this deposition today, as iar as
my schedule permits and ue are not going to go into the
history of Hr . Godson's role in the youth movement or in the
Jamaican conference.
MR. FRYMAM: The question stands, and he can either
answer it or you can direct him not to answer it.
tlR. SILBERT: I Mill object to the question on the
grounds I have previously stated, twofold grounds. Myself
not being aware until yesterday that--well, at no time was I
told the youth commission activities would be a subject of
today's deposition.
Kot until yesterday at sometime around 5 o'clock was I
advised that my understanding of the scope of today's
deposition was incorrect. Therefore, in terms of lack of
being able to prepare the witness, particularly on such
broad-ranging inquiries that seem to go far beyond the
mandate of the committee, I certainly haven't done the
preparation for today's deposition.
Secondly, I also object on the grounds of relevance.
Its. fRYHAN: Again, I don't think any purpose is
served by a detailed debate back and forth as to what you
expected the subject matter of the deposition to be . I will
merely point out that we have had a previous exchange of
correspondence concerning subpoenas that directly involved
ONCUSSIFIED
311
NAHE:
2638
2639
2640
264 1
2642
2643
2644
2645
2646
2647
2648
2649
2650
2651
2652
2653
2654
2655
2656
2657
2658
2659
2660
266 1
2662
HIR253000
UNCUSSIHED
PAGE 1 1 1
tha International Youth Year and Mr. Godson's association
with it.
I uiil also point out that in our prior interview there
was an extensive discussion of that subject, and how you
concluded that it would not be a subject for discussion
today is beyond me.
HR. SILBERT: I think it is very simple, Mr. Tryman.
I think it is perfectly clear from that interview, based on
fir. Godson's answer that the information he knew of, the
information of which he was aware, had utterly no relevance
to either Exhibit 2, or anything within the mandate of the
scope of the committee and, therefore, it was natural for me
to conclude, when you did not make specific reference to it,
that having had an investigator coma down and go through all
the files in our office that related to that, and fxTther
having examined him at an informal interview at which
Professor Godson voluntarily appeared and spent considerable
time, as you are correct, going over this subject, and there
being nothing said in that interview that indicated the
remotest affiliation with anything to do with Nicaragua, or
Iran, or arms for tha Sandinistas, from his association with
tha youth movement, I naturally assumed that it would not be
tha subject of this deposition and the committee would not
waste its time.
HR. FRYHAK: The questions stands.
UNCLASSIFIED
312
NAME:
2663
266U
2665
2666
2667
2668
2669
2670
2671
2672
2673
26714
2675
2676
2677
2678
2679
2680
2681
2682
2683
26814
2685
2686
2687
HIR253000
ONCLASSIFIED
PAGE 112
BY MR. FRYMAN:
Q The question stands, Mz . Godson. You should answer
the question unless your counsel directs you not to.
MR. SILBERT: I respectfully advise the uitness that
for the reasons previously stated, he ought not to answer
the question.
If you want to construe that as a direction, you may.
BY MR. FRYMAM:
8 Mr. Godson, are you refusing to answer the question?
A On advice of counsel, at this time I decline to
answer the question.
Can I add also that I have tried to be as cooperative as ll
can. X wish to do so, but at this time I decline to answer
the question.
2 In connection with youz association with the April
1985 conference in Jamaica, and your work on the
International Youth Year, did you receive any United States
Government funds?
(Witness and counsel confer.]
IMS WITKESS : I may have misunderstood the question.
Could you repeat,
(euestion read. ]
THS HIINESS: Hith respect to attending that
conference, I received no funds.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
UNCLASSIFIED
313
NAME :
2688
2689
2690
269 1
2692
2693
269U
2695
2696
2697
2698
2699
2700
2701
2702
2703
2704
2705
2706
2707
2708
2709
2710
27 1 1
2712
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 113
2 I don't think that is responsive to the question.
Read the question again.
HR. SILBERT: That is his answer. You don't have to
read the question. 1£ you want to ask a iollou-up question,
you may.
He has answered that question.
BY HR. FRYHAH:
2 Kr . Godson, the question had two parts. One related
to the Jamaica conierence; the other part had to do with
other activities by you relating to the International Youth
Year.
Did you receive any United States Government funds or did
any organization with which you are associated receive any
United States Government funds in connection with such
activities?
MR. SILBERT: That is such a broad-ranging question,
and unless I have some better idea as to gain how that is
germane to the committee's inquiry. I object to the answer
and will advise him not to answer it.
It doesn't mean that a more precisely pinpointed question
that focuses in on House Resolution 12. or deposition No. 2.
I would make the same objection and instructions, but I do
object to the question respectfully as phrased.
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Do you understand the question, Hr . Godson?
UNCIASSIREO
314
mmim
Hum- HIR253000 UI«wL.riWwll ttmV pj^Q^ ^,^
2713
271U
2715
27 16
A I think so.
Q And are you refusing to answer the question?
A YeS/ on advice of my counsel at this time.
UNClASSra
315
NAME ■■
2717
2718
27 19
2720
2721
2722
2723
272U
2725
2726
llZl
2728
2729
2730
2731
2732
2733
273U
2735
2736
2737
2738
2739
27U0
2741
HIR253000
RPTS THOMAS
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE lis
DCHN PARKER
[ 1 : 00 p .ra. 1
MR. FRYMAN: nr . Silbert, I have a series of
additional questions in the same area concerning payment of
United States Government funds to Mr. Godson in connection
with the International Youth Year. Is it your position that
you will advise your client not to answer such questions.
MR. SILBERT: i am not prepared to say that. I
would have to hear each specific question, and then try to
make an assessment as to whether that question, given my
priori
>bjections. continuing objectionj/. he should an
swer .
BY MR. FRYHAH:
Q Were national strategy information center bank
accounts used in connection with your activities with
respect to the International Youth Year?
MR. SILBERT: x am not sure I understand that
question. Do you? i
THE WITNESS: x nay have some idea, but this points
to the purpose of us having consulted about these matters.
HR. FRYMAN: Do you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: x an not sure I do either. I may be
abla to. I an not sure.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
fi What is it you do not understand about the
J
316
NAME:
2742
2743
2744
274S
2746
2747
2748
2749
27S0
2751
2752
2753
2754
2755
2756
2757
2758
2759
2760
2761
2762
2763
2764
2765
HIR253000
question?
ONCLASSIRED
PAGE 116
rtR. SILBERT: Ha is not prepared to answer. I
have:i't discussed this subject matter with hin at all. I
have to step out and give -de background, so I could be able
to counsel hin with respect to these matters. Again, that
particular question, I do have problems with aM^ relevance
as well. I just don't understand how it relates even to
Deposition Number 2.
rtR. FRYMAN: The pending question is what is it
about the question that I asked that he does not understand.
HR. SILBERT: I know I didn't understand it.
something to do with any bank accounts used —
BY HR. FRYMAN: ny question is Mr. Godson's
undi
THE WITNESS: I am afraid I have to explain to him
what I think may be involved. Can we go outside fox a
minute?
MR. FRYMAN: Let the record reflect the witness has
asked to confer with counsel, and we will go off the record.
[Recess. 1
HR. FRYMAN: Let's make break and resume at 2
o'clock.
[Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m. the deposition was
recessed, to reconvene at 2:00 p.m. the same day. 1
lerstanq^nr. Silbext.
IINCUSSiFe
317
NAME :
2766
2767
2768
2769
2770
277 1
2772
2773
2774
2775
2776
2777
2778
2779
2780
2781
2782
2783
278U
2785
2786
2787
2788
2789
2790
HIR253000
RPTS CA
■-UKcussife
PAGE 117
DCHH KOEHLER
AFTERNOOH SESSION
BY MR. FRYHAH:
S Mr. Godson, would you generally describe the nature
of your involvement in the activities relating to the
International Youth Year?
A I had been studying international youth affairs for
many years, and began a study of the International Youth
r
Year back in the early 1980!^. I played a role in
encouraging the United States Governnent as well as the
Jamaican and other governments to have a major international
conference .
I uorked uith youth in the United States and abroad, to
encourage participation of democratic youth groups in the
first-ever global conference of democratic youth. I played
no role whatsoever in handling the money or in making any of
the key decisions. These were decisions that were made by
governments and by the youth groups themselves.
I know of no discussion or actual diversion of any
funds to the Kicaraguan democratic resistance in connection
uith youth activity. The chart, I know of no reason why any
youth organization should be mentioned, should be indicated
there, and I never have seen this or was involved in any
wtiwe
318
HAKE:
2791
2792
2793
279U
279S
2796
2797
2798
2799
2800
280 1
2802
2803
280(4
2805
2806
2807
2808
2809
2810
281 1
2812
2813
28114
2815
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 118
discussion or activity pertaining to this chart or the
diversion of any iunds to the Nicaraguan denocratic
resistance .
Q Did you discuss your activities in connection with
the International Youth Year with any enployee of the
National Security Council?
A Yes.
fi Uhich enployee?
A Several. Walt Raynond was the prinary person.
2 Did you ever discuss your activities in any way
with Oliver North?
A I have no recollection of any conversation about
that.
8 Did you discuss your activities with tlr .
Cannistraro?
A I an sura he was aware that I worked on that
project, but this was--Ualt Raymond was the prinary person at
NSC responsible. I nay have discussed it. X discussed
youth affairs in general with Halt Raynond. I cannot say
that nr . Cannistraro was never present when those
discussions took place, but in the nain, nz . Raynond was the
person at the NSC who dealt with youth natters.
2 So you have any infornation with respect to whether
nr . Raynond ever discussed your activities with Colonel
North?
"fmmm
319
HAHE:
2816
2817
2818
2819
2820
2821
2822
2823
282U
2825
2826
2827
2828
2829
2830
2831
2832
2833
283U
2835
2836
2837
2838
2839
2840
HIR253000
PAGE 1 19
A I have no information at all.
Q The conference held in Jamaica in April 1985, what
did you understand to be the purpose of that conference?
A The purpose was to bring democratic youth, youth
from democratic organizations together to discuss future
problems that would face youth into the future, and to
consider whether to establish an on+going youth
organization, a global democratic youth organization.
2 Uas that to be known as a secretariat?
A My recollection--! can't remember the name, but no,
the secretariat was designed to be the secretariat to
the--there was a secretariat for the conference itself. I
mean that is a formal international procedure to have a
secretariat for the conference, and if there was a follou-up
organization, there would be a secretariat to a follow-up
organization .
2 Was there a delegation from Nicaragua at this
conference in Jamaica?
A I believe there was .
2 Did you have any contact with that delegation?
A Ko, I did not. I mean. I can't say I didn't see
them in the corridors, something like that, but I don't
remember any conversation with then.
2 In your description of your involvement in the
International Youth Year activities, as I understand your
Mrnrnn
320
28U1
28U2
28>43
28U>4
28U5
28U6
2847,
28M8
2849
2850
2851
2852
2853
285M
2855
2856
2857
2858
2859
2860
2861
2862
2863
286(4
2865
HIR253000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 120
answer, you indicated that you did not have control over any
government funds, is that correct?
A Correct. .
2 Were you paid £or your involvement in these
activities?
A In part, yes, as a consultant and the first to USIA
in the early 1980]s, and in part as a consultant to the HSC .
2 And any payitents that you received were in one of
those capacities, as a consulting fee to one of those two
organizations?
A Exactly.
2 Are you aware of the deposit of any United States
Government funds to any account of the National Strategy
Information Center relating to the International Youth Year?
A In 1981, I think there was a grant to the National
Strategy Information Center, in 1981.
e Was that a USIA grant?
A Yes.
2 And after 1981?
A I don't recall any other grant from USIA. I can't
swear there wasn't one. It may have continued into 193%,
but it was at that period. It was to do a study of
International Youth Year for the United States Government.
2 And other than that USIA grant, you are not aware
of any other government funds relating to the International
"wuss/fe
321
UNCLASSIFIED
NAHE: HIR2S3000 V I 1 VUI llLf >k^ 3 i !U JkF PAGE 121
2866 Youth Year being deposited in any MSIC account?
2867 A Right.
2868 2 That is correct?
2869 A Correct.
2870 2 Turning back to Exhibit 2, Hr . Godson; you have
287 1 testified that you first saw that chart either in the Tower
2872 Commission Report or in a newspaper article describing the
2873 Tower Commission Report, and when you saw it, you were
287U concerned about the box with the entry that appears to be an
2875 abbreviation for the International Youth Committee or
2876 International Youth Commission, and you ware concerned that
2877 that box might be identified with your work in some way or
2878 other?
2879 A Correct.
2880 2 Did you recognize any of the other entities on that
2881 chart?
2882 A Well, the box, the only arrow I see from that box
2883 is to FDM, and I had assumed FDK was the main body of the
288>4 Hicaraguan military arm that is fighting the Sandinlsta
2885 government.
2886 2 Let's approach it another way, Mr. Godson.
2887 Focusing at first on the top line of the chart, the first
2888 box Is KZPL. Did you recognize that?
2889 A Let me say I recognized nothing, — I recognized
2890 nothing on the top line at all. Youth something or other.
i^mim
322
NAHE:
2891
2892
2893
289M
2895
2896
2897
2898
2899
2900
2901
2902
2903
2904
2905
2906
2907
2908
2909
2910
291 1
2912
2913
29114
2915
HIR253000
iWSSlfB
PAGE 122
and then I didn't, at that time, recognize this one, KSI.
but I guess I now want to interpret that as ISI.
2 You mean INSI?
A Oh, if that is what that is, I don't know. I
didn't recognize any. That IK or H?
2 In recognizing that, you do not associate that with
the Institute for Horth-South Issues?
A It occurred to me it could have been. It occurred
to me, but that wasn't what concerned me when I first saw
the chart.
2 Did you recognize any of the entities identified in
any of the other boxes on the top line?
A Ko.
2 You did not know what IDEA stood for?
A No.
2 Or the GNC Foundation?
A Ko.
2 And what about the box next to the International
Youth Committee?
A No.
S Or commission?
A No. I still don't.
2 On tha next line there is a box around the
initials, IBC . Did you recognize that?
A I was not fully — I don't remember when, at what
uNtussro
323
UNCUSSIFIED
NAHE- HIR253000 U I « UL_f IW ■ I ik«V pxGZ 123
2916 point it hit ma that Richard Miliar had a company called
2917 somathing with IBC in it, but it didn't initially, bacausa I
2918 didn't deal with that company.
2919 e So, at the time you first read this chart, you had
2920 not realized that IBC was Hr . Millar's company?
2921 A Correct.
2922 2 What about IC, Inc. on that line?
2923 A That sort of struck a ball bacausa I think I
292<4 remember the account in the Cayman Islands had IC as part of
2925 its letters and numbers, as I recall, so it concerned me
2926 when I saw it.
2927 S At the time you first saw this chart in the paper?
2928 A I can't remember if it was that very day, whether
2929 it was that day or tha naxt day, ox two days later.
2930 2 And what about tha box on that same line that
2931 appears to saly IC8A or SA?
2932 A It didn't mean anything to ma other than on the
2933 first one.
293U e Hhat about tha box that contains tha word,
2935 "Lake''?
2936 A I had navar heard of it until tha hearings became
2937 public.
2938 fi Had you aver had any discussion with Colonel North
2939 about any Swiss bank account?
2940 A Mo.
IINCUSSIflED
324
NAHE:
2941
2942
2943
29414
2945
2946
2947
2948
2949
2950
2951
2952
2953
2954
2955
2956
2957
2958
2959
2960
2961
2962
2963
2964
2965
HIR253000
UNCUSSIFiED
PAGE 124
Q And no ona had ever told you about an account in a
Swiss bank called the ''Lake Account*'?
A No.
S The boK with the initials, FDN, you indicated
earlier you believe you recognized those initials?
A The initials of the main body fighting against the
Sandinista government.
2 And the box beside that appears to have UNO.
A I recognize that as UNO. I thought that might be
UNO, which became the coordinating body of the resistance.
2 What about the two boxes beneath that?
A I can't actually read. Hy eyes aren't good enough.
I couldn't tell you what those letters are.
2 Do you see the names beside the boxes, beside the
box on the left, K»brgl 4Eg=v and beside the box on the right,
A
the name, Cruz?
A I can't read it right. I can sea the left, and I
do see Hubellu
2 Did you notice those names when you first read the
chart?
A Hot really, because — I mean I didn't study it. It
wasn't something I was studying. The only one where I
thought it night Immediately lead to false inference as
pertains to the Intl Youth Conn.
2 Finally, Hr . Godson, just to finish this chart, at
Mmn
325
HIR253000
UNCIiSSiFIED
PAGE 125
NAME:
2966 th« bottom lave! that* is a box with tha initials ACE in it.
2967 Did you racogniza thosa initials?
2968 A No, I didn't.
2969 2 And than furthar to tha right, thara aia six
2970 additional boxas that hava Udall Daiax.
297 1 A I can say tha othais ara naaning lass to ma.
2972 S Thata is ona additional box that is out basida tha
2973 box that has tha word, ''Laka,'* in it. Do you saa that?
297<4 A This ona, you maan?
2975 S Yas.
2976 A Is that what that says?
2977 HR. SILBERT: Ko , this says, Llka.
2978 THE WITNESS: I don't avan know what that says. I
2979 can't zaad it and that doasn't maan anything to na , whatavar
2980 that is.
2981 BY HR. FRYHAK:
2982 S It appaats to hava tha lattars BOL.
2983 A If that is BOL, it still doasn't maan anything to
298U ma.
2985 fi Did you avaz hava any contact with Richard tlillaz.
2986 apart from tha mattars that you hava dascribad involving tha
2987 transfars oi tha contributions that had baan arzangad by
2988 Tarry Slaasa and John Hlrtla?
2989 A Not to my racollaction. I think I only saw him
2990 onca or twlca in my lifa.
lINCUSSIflEO
326
V.
KXnt< HIR2S3000 w ■ » Wfc« »«» «r - • -— — pj^gj ,26
2991 S Bo you tacall attamptlng to taach Ht . Miller by
2992 t«laphon« at his oiilca, and ha not being present in the
2993 office, and your leaving a message that it was urgent that
299U he get back to you promptly, that you were about to leave
2995 for Europe?
2996 KR. SXLBERI' Can you put any tim^^rane? Can you
2997 give the year?
2998 IH£ HXTNESS: I don't renember that. The only
2999 reasons I would have been interested in getting something
3000 from llr . Killer would have been the precise name, you know,
the method transferring the f unds^^^^^^^^^^^H That
3002 was the basis of my relationship with Hr . Hiller, and the
3003 only thing Z can say is, if he says that there was such a
300U message left at his office, that I did travel to Europe, I
3005 do travel to Europe, and it was quite likely I was trying to
3006 get--it is entirely plausible I was just trying to get the
3007 name, the number of the account.
3008 BY HR. FRYHAK--
3009 e And you were not trying to contact him about any
3010 other subject?
3011 A Z was not involved with him In any other subject
30 12 other thanj
3013 e Hex* you aware of Hr. nillar's role in attempting
30 1(4 to obtain the release of hostages In the diddle East?
30 15 A Z was unaware of it, and li he was. It was the
*%ffi
//
327
NAMr :
3016
3017
3018
30 19
3020
302 1
3022
3023
3024
302S
3026
3027
3028
3029
3030
3031
3032
3033
3034
3035
3036
3037
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 127
first tins I hava h«aid it.
2 And you had no contact with hin with laspact to
that?
A Corrttct.
2 Did you hava any knoul«dg« of a supposed Saudi
prince naned Alnasudi?
A No.
Q Havfa you ttvar met Carl Channall?
A You asked ne that before, and to ny knowledge, no.
Q Have you ever met Dan Conrad?
A To my knowledge, no.
C One of Mr. Channell's associates?
A I didn't know that, but no, I don't think so.
2 Have you ever had any involvement in —
nn. SILBERT: Mho was that last name?
THE HITNESS: Dan Conrad.
HR. SILK«':Conrad?
BY HR. FRYHAK:
2 Have you ever had any involvement in the
fundraising activities of Mr. Channell's organizations?
A No.
m. FRYnAN: Off the record.
"Ncussm
328
NAHE:
3038
3039
30U0
30(41
301*2
30U3
3041*
30US
30(46
30(47
30(48
30>49
3050
30S1
3052
3053
305(4
3055
3056
3057
3058
3059
3060
3061
3062
"WSS/flfi
HIR253000 iBtiftB '*°^ '28
RPIS THOMAS -*-■«.
OCHN PARKER
(2:30 p.m. ]
BY MR. FRYHAK:
2 Mr. Godson, going back to our discussion of tha
contributions that was ultiaataly mada by tha Haritaga
Foundation and your conversation with Mr. Feulnar> as I
recall your testimony, you stated that you informed Mr.
Feulner in the initial conversation that these were funds
being raised for the purpose of transferring them to|
^^^^^^^^^ is that correct?
A Correct.
fi Did you have further conversations with Hz. Feulner
about that grant?
A Other than that day you mean?
& Yes.
A I don't recall any other. He was leaving, as I
recall, to travel abroad, and I think he instructed me to
deal with Mr. Trulock. I think that is what happened.
There would be no other reason for me to have discussed it.
e Have you discussed that grant with Mr. Feulner any
time this year?
A Yes, sir, I have.
2 Hhen did you discuss it?
A I don't remember the date.
ONwssife
329
NAHE ■
3063
30614
3065
3066
3067
3068
3069
3070
3071
3072
3073
3074
3075
3076
3077
3078
3079
3080
3081
3082
3083
308(4
3085
3086
3087
HIR253000
DNCLASSIREO
PAGE 129
2 Within the last three months.
A Yes.
2 Hou did that conversation come about?
A He called me telling me that there was a newspaper
journalist conferring with counsel--neuspaper , particular
journalist who was likely to be hostile to the Heritage
Foundation, and I had come across their grants to the
institute ior rj^or th/south |f£airs, and he was calling to ask
me what I recalled about the grant.
I think it was Hr . Xrulock called ne first. Hr .
Trulock called ma first. I then returned the call to rtr .
reulnez/ then I think we had a three-way conversation>
Trulock, Faulner and myself, on the telephone in which he
said ha forgot what the purpose of that grant was. I said I
remembered it very clearly.
He remembered what it was. Ua agreed that Hr .
Trulock would not tall tha journalist tha purpose intended
by tha recipient of that grant. ''
2 You reminded him of youz original conversation with
him where you had stated tha purpose.
A Correct.
S Did he indicate that that then refreshed his
raoollaotion about tha purpose.
A It did, but ha also asked ma what was the Institute
for the North/South. In other words, ha oouldn't remember.
UNCLASSlRFfl
330
NAK2:
3088
3089
3090
309 1
3092
3093
3094
3095
3096
3097
3098
3099
3100
3101
3102
3103
3tOU
310S
3106
3107
3108
3109
31 10
311 1
31 12
'^-iri[i
HII1253000 VllVbllVVII IL.A/ PAGE 130
didn't appear to taaembaz tha uhola transaction, and so I
ramlnded hin thara was nr . Millar, and ha uas--thay uara--nr.
Channal/uas on tha talaphona. I was trying to ba somawhat
dlscra^jk/ about this, but ha understood that that uasi
land tha institute was the nethod of transferring,
and ha seened to accept that.
He agreed — instructed Mr. Trulock not to inform the
journalist about it.
C Have you had any further discussions with Mr.
Feulner about this grant?
A Yes, I had one further discussion with hia about it
on the night when Congressnan Fascell asked questions about
my meetings with Colonel Horth and about Mr. Donahue and Hz.
Hirtle and ha was informed by Colonel North this was agreed
this would not be a subject for public discussion; that tha
committee had apparently made some determination it wouldn't
be discussed in public.
Mr. reulner's office — I was on jury duty — that Hr .
Feulner's office, during the course of tha day apparently
issued soma sort of statement to tha press about tha remarks
which Congressman Fascell had made. The journalist inquired
of me that evening. I deferred to comment about who the
recipient of tha funds — Mr. Trulock apparently had told the
journalist from their inquiries of ma that I had asked the
Heritage Foundation to transfer tha funds to tha Institute
331
3113
31 IM
3 115
3116
3117
3 1 18
3119
3120
312 1
3122
3123
312(t
3125
3126
3127
3128
3129
3130
3131
3132
3133
313((
3135
3136
3137
HIR25~000
UNWSSiFlO
PAGE 131
for North/South Affairs, suggesting they were doing this
only because X and Mr. Slease had done this.
Hr . Feulnet had called me in the evening after--this
was later in the evening, fairly recent, as I remember this
quite well--and was apparently out of the city or just
returned to the city that day and said he was unaware Mr.
Trulock had made this statement. And we both agreed it was
unfortunate, especially as he knew the reasons for the
transfer of the funds, and this obviously left a false
impression .
But given the sensitivity of the recipient, we
decided to live with the fact that the record reflected
somewhat adversely on me and Mr. Slease, and just decided to
leave it at that.
HR. FRYHAN: Hr . Godson, I have no further
questions. Mr. HcGough. I believe, now has some questions!.
BY MR. nCGOUGH:
2 I will follow up a few.
Hr . Godson, outside of the discussions with Colonel
North that you have already described, did you ever discuss
with him on any other occasions the needs of the Nicaragua
resistance for financial support.
A Mo, I didn't.
2 Did you ever--
A Kot to my recollection.
332
NAHE
3138
3139
SlUO
31t«1
31<42
3143
31Ut4
311*5
3146
3147
31>48
31U9
3150
3151
3152
3153
3154
3155
3156
3157
3158
3159
3160
3161
3162
iiNW.ssm
HIR253000 iSlia^g!;.r?.1.9\.3!3 9 HmU PXGK 132
2 Did h* avar taquast or suggast to you that you
solicit itonay for any othax causa at all?
A Wa — any other causa othaz than tha subjact nattar of
tha Investigation that you aza talking about here.
2 Other than what wa discussed already?!
did ha ever discuss or ask you to raise
noney for anything other than!
n the circuastances you have described?
A Are you asking about any other part of tha world
have to do to witl^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^v
don't understand tha question.
e I think it is. yes, tha answer to your question for
clarification, any othaz part of tha world. Did Colonel
North aver ask you to raise money for anything else other
than^^^^
A I am trying to think. I don't recall anything
specific, no.
Q The qualification you don't recall anything
specific bothers me a little bit.
A I can't say that I didn't have — can I talk to my
counsel?
nR. HCGOUGH: Suze.
[Confazzlng with counsel.]
MR. SXLBERT: I think wa Mill have to step outside,
HR. nCGOUGH: Okay.
ISiaSSlFlffl
I
1
333
NAME'
3163
316U
3165
3166
3167
3168
3169
3170
3171
3172
3173
317U
3175
3176
3177
3178
3179
3180
3181
3182
3183
318K
3185
3186
3187
HI11253000
UNCUSSIFIEB
PAGE 133
I R«c*ss . ]
THE HITNESS: Tha ansu*r to your quastion is I
cannot racall a spaclfic Incldant uh«ia ua askad na to laisa
funds for anything alsa.
BY KR. nCGOUGH:
S Did you avar discuss with Hz. Millar. Richard
Millar, that is, what, ii any, coapansation ha or INS or
anyona alsa associatad with him might taka out oi tha
donation or contribution?
A Mo, I did not. I actually didn't assusa ha was
taking anything.
e You had no information that ifflNS or Mr. Miliar
daductad any amount from thosa contributions prior to
passing tham on tol
A Ko. I was doing this pro bono. I assumad ha was.
8 Did you discuss that spacifioally with him?
A No.
fi Did you discuss compansation?
A No> It didn't coma up.
fi Did Colonal Korth avar mantion anything to you on
this?
A
fi
No.
In your oonvarsatlons with Nx. North. Colonal
r Mr .^ an aah aBKy , did you avar discuss
North, Mr. Hcfarlana or Mr. -B an aa fc aef , did y
tha tax daductlbillty of any contributions that might ba
Ml
wr'T
• vJ' ♦»-■' '
334
NAHE'
3188
3189
3190
3191
3192
3193
3194
3 195
3196
3197
3198
3199
3200
3201
3202
3203
320U
3205
3206
3207
3208
3209
3210
321 1
3212
HZX253000
ONCUSSIFIED
PtG2 13<«
made tc
X I don't iftcall av«r discussing those datalls with
than. I didn't--it wasn't their business, wasn't their
profession as far as I was concerned. That was me in my
role as a private citizen who knew about tax t^eductible
contributions .
2 And in that role, knowing about that, you were
aware of the tax deductibllity--would be an incentive for
someone to make a contribution.
It would ^o^^^^^^^^^B y^s- ^ thought It would
be.
e An incentive tc^^^^^^^^^H>r the
contributor?
A To the contributor, but oi course we figure there
may be others who wouldn't particularly want to. That is
why there were two different accounts.
e You did discuss the tax deductibility with Hr .
niller.
A
&
A
e
Yes, sir.
You talk about two different ways to do It.
Yes.
You said there may be people who might not want to
take tax deductions for it. Why did you assume that.
A I don't know. I. just in case there was somebody
to do it. I wanted to have a way to do it. I wasn't
uiUSSIflEB
335
NAHE :
3213
3214
321S
32 16
3217
3218
3219
3220
3221
3222
3223
322<4
3225
3226
3227
3228
3229
3230
3231
3232
3233
3234
3235
3236
3237
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 135
planning to naK« tha solicitations, but it was just an
option .
2 Was thaie anything about the contribution that led
you to beliavA it night not ba tax deductible?
A No, it wasn't that it was to tax deductible,
quickly at hand the nechanisn for doing this. Actually, Mr.
Millei did not give me details until I said we actually had
somebody who wanted to actually make the contribution.
2 It is a little bit perplexing to me a bit that you
would have two avenues of making the same contribution, one
that would--only difference being one tax deductible and one
not tax deductible.
A I have never been fortunate to ba in a position to
worry about whether to make that determination, whether to
make a contribution tax deductible or not. I understand
soma people who are in that position do have reasons why
they ch^e to do it. I can't tell you why they do it. All
I know thay like to do that.
3 In other words, you say there are soma people who
prefer not to take tha tax deduction?
A I don't know if they can take it. I don't know the
machanisa that you use to take or not take tax deductions.
I just don't know tha reasons why.
fi Did you ever discuss tax deductibility of these
contributions with Hr . Slease?
UNCIASSIREO
336
iciissra
NAMI: HIX253000 :IIV||| mULIll ll-l^ PAGE 136
3238 A Other than to say we had a tax deductible way and
3239 no tax deductible way, no.
32(40 fi Did you discuss why there were two ways?
32U1 A No.
32(«2 8 Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Miller's
32<43 partner, Frank Gomez?
32UU A I don't believe I have met him.
32>4S 2 Did you ever meet an individual by the name oi
32M6 Kevin Katke?
32(47 A Kot to my knowledge.
32(48 S Here you ever asked by Hr . Slease or anyone else
32(49 associated with these contributions tol
3250 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^<> supply or obtain documentation to support
3251 a tax deduction ior the contribution?
3252 A Hho asked me?
3253 S Did anyone associated with these contributions ever
325(4 ask you for documentation that might support a tax deduction
3255 under these contributions? Did they ask for an IRS letter
3256 of determination for 501 (c)3 corporation? Did you ever act
3257 as conduit for any kind of information?
3258 A Kot to the contributors. I had no contact with the
3259 contributors. To this day. I have not met any people who
3260 contributed to this.
326 1 2 HoH about to Hr . Slease or Heritage Foundation?
3262 A Hell, they — I don't knoM how they — with Hr . Slease,
BNCMSSii
337
3263
32614
3265
3266
3267
3268
3269
3270
3271
3272
3273
32714
327S
3276
3277
3278
3279
3280
3281
3282
3283
328(4
3285
3286
3287
HIR2S3000
DNCLftSSIHED
PAGE 137
h» just ask«d ma if I thought--! said th« institute was tax
daductlbl*. Thar* as such an instituta, and it was tax
daductibla. Ha accaptad my word.
2 And on what did you basa--
A Ka saamad to accept ny word. Ha didn't challanga
It.
8 Did ha ask for documentation?
A I don't recall him asking for documentation. To be
fair to him I think he would assume that I am responsible,
and that I would have had some reason to believe that this
was a tax deductible--this was a foundation or entity that
qualified to receive tax deductible funds.
2 Did you ever ask Colonel Korth or anyone else why
the contribution wasn't made directly tol
Well, to me it was obvious why. I didn't ask. It
2 I don't hava any further questions.
BY HR. OLIVER:
UNMSSIRED
338
HIR2S3000
UNCLASSIFIED ....
138
Hint-
3288 fi Hx . Godson, do you know whathar in fact th« nonay
3289 avar actually raachedj
3290 I Ko.
329 1 C Did you avar ask anyona uhathai or not it reached
3292^^^^
3293 k I assumed iron the fact that--
329t4 HR. SILBERT: The question is —
3295 THE HITHESS: The answer is no.
3296 BY MR. OLIVERS
3297 Q Did Colonel North or Rich niller tell you that this
3298 IC account which they collected to have checks nade out, did
they you was^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Lccoun^?
3300 A Ko.
330 1 e Here you aware that the principals on that account
3302 were Hr . Hiller and Mr. Gonez?
3303 A Ko, X didn't know who, don't even know what the
330(( word principal neans . I just assumed Miller controlled the
3305 account.
3306 2 So it is possible that the money could have gone
elsewhere other than^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Honce
3308 that account?
3309 I It is possible.
3310 S Is it possible that the money could have gone to
33 11 lake Resources from that account?
3312 HR. SILBERT: Excuse me.
mm
f- ..- >•; , -S »
339
NAME '
3313
331M
33 IS
33 16
3317
3318
3319
3320
3321
3322
3323
3321
3325
3326
3327
3328
3329
3330
3331
3332
3333
33314
3335
3336
3337
DNClCTO
HIR253000 II111LIL.I •V^^'"' PAGE 139
HR. OLIVER: I uill withdraw tha question.
Do you understand whether or not the noney went
from that account to Lake Resources?
THE WITNESS: No, I don't.
riR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
make this Godson Exhibit <4 .
[the document was marked as Deposition Exhibit
Number U . I
MR. OLIVER: I show the document to the witness.
BY MR. OLIVER:
2 nr . Godson, this is a declassified copy of Olivet
North's handwritten notes. On the first line it refers to a
meeting with Rich, then below that it says rtario Calero is
speaking to--it says, ''Roy Godson re European dollars.''
Do you know what that is in reference to?
Off the record.
[Discussion held off the record.]
nR. OLIVER: Back on the record.
THE WITNESS: I haven't the slightest.
BY HR. OLIVER:
Did you ever discuss with Colonel North your
Zuxopean f undj^raising for any of the projects that he was
involved in?
A I don't recall ever discussing that, recall
discussing with North any of the projects that he was
mmsm
340
NAME:
3338
3339
33U0
331(1
33<42
33>43
33>4t4
33K5
33U6
33U7
3308
331*9
33S0
3351
3352
3353
335"*
3355
3356
3357
3358
3359
3360
336 1
3362
HIR253000
PAGE mo
•"'"r lUNCUSSIFlEO
A KO.
2 Thesa notes ara from his —
A I don't zecall any discussions.
S Did you evaz attenpt to raise any nonay in Europe
from European institutions or from European individuals for
any projects or activities associated with the Nicaraguan
resistance .
A No, I did not.
MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark that as Exhibit Number--6odson Exhibit Number 5.
[The document was marked as Deposition Number 5.]
BY HR. OLIVER:
2 This--nr. Godson, this is another page from Oliver
North's notebooks, dated September 17, 1985. Toward the
bottom of the page, there is several boxes, and the middle
one says,
'Godson to slip deadlin4.es.
Do you know what that is in reference to?
A No, we are taking your word that that is what it
says. It Is completely illegible to me.
S I will verify that it says to slip deadlines in the
original copy.
2 Did you have any discussions with Oliver North
regarding a timetable for the ^itO,000 a month that you were
yNCLASSIFIED
341
wmsse
PAGE 1(41
NKHE
3363 attanptlng to lals* ioi
336>4 k It uas «20,000.
3365 . [Counsal confarzing with uitnass.l
3366 nR. SILBERT: li you don't know.
3367 THE WITNESS: I cartainly don't know what that
3368 rafars to.
3369 BY HR. OLIVER:
3370 S Did you naka a comnitaant or hava a discussion with
337 1 Colonal Noith about whan thase funds would ba available.
3372 A Navaz a coanitnant ot I said I would try to neat
3373 that, thosa amounts I would try.
337>4 fi Do you zecall whathat or not in Saptanbar of 1985,
3375 you wara attampting to raisa funds for Colonal North's
3376 projacts at is raquast?
3377 HR. SIIBERT: Fori
3378 THE WITNESS : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^was arabodied at
3379 that tima. That was tha only tlaa ha askad ma to do that.
3380 BY HR. OLIVER:
3381 Q Was that in this tin* pariod?
3382 A I think — I don't hava axact racall, but, yas. it is
3383 quita possible.
338(4 e You hava no racollaction about a discussion with
3385 him about slipping deadlines?
3386 A No.
3387 HR. OLIVER' I would like to ask the reporter to
342
HAME:
3388
3389
3390
3391
3392
3393
3394
339S
3396
3397
3398
3399
3U00
31401
3>402
3103
340U
3405
3106
3<407
31*08
3U09
smo
3<41 1
3(412
HIR253000 \j|\l]!LSr^^^-- PAGE 1U2
maik this as Godson Exhibit Nunber 6.
I Tha document reiarred to was marked as Exhibit
Number 6 for identification. ]
BY HR. OLIVER:
2 I ask the witness to look at this document. This
is. again, a copy of a page from Olivet North's notebook and
on about January there is an entry there says. ''Public
diplomacy. '* and there are iour entries before that. Your
name appears there, and then at the bottom of the page it
says, ''Call Miller are Godson.'*
My first question is. were you involved in the
public diplomacy program that was being coordinated by the
Uhite House?
A On Central America?
8 Yes.
A No. to my knowledge, no. When I say I was not
participating in it to my knowledge, somebody else may have
interpreted I may have been, but I wasn't.
2 Oo you have any idea what that reference is to?
A No, I am afraid Z don't. What was the date?
2 January 6.
HR. SIIBERT: What year?
MR. OLIVER: I believe it is 1985, but, it is not
marked on that tape, but — I an not sura.
BY n&. OLIVER:
UNCLA
uoirlEo
343
HAKE :
3u m
34 IS
3416
3417
34 18
3U19
3«20
3421
3U22
3423
342U
3M25
3U26
3427
3428
3429
3430
3431
3432
3433
3434
3435
3436
3437
l)NCW?S!F!ED
HIR2S3000 11119^2 i'4')^xirH S i., IJ PAGE 143
2 Uell. ny question, do you remember discussing
public diplomacy with Colonel Korth?
A Ko.
Q Do you know why there uould be an entry there
referring to calling tlilller are Godson.
A I don't Know other than the reasons we have
discussed hete before.
S Did Colonel North aver discuss with you a request
from Spitz Channel or any of his organization/ to seek your
advice regarding setting up an international foundation.
A No, he did not.
e Did he ever request--did he ever discuss with you
Spitz Channel's organization? I an referring to Colonel
North.
A I don't recall any discussion with Colonel North on
this subject at all.
2 After the April 1985 Jamaica Youth Conference, was
there a debt from the expenses of the conference that you or
any of the people who participated in the conference as your
associates felt an obligation to pay, a financial debt?
A I don't know. I don't recall any. I once knew, I
suspect, but I have forgotten. It is not something I work
on. It Is too many years.
Q Were you aware of an audit of the International
Youth Conference carried out by Coopers and fc)[brand in 1985.
UNGUSSIHEB
344
Hknt-
3438
3439
3440
34141
34U2
3443
3444
3445
3446
3447
3448
3449
3450
3451
3452
3453
3454
3455
3456
3457
3458
3459
3460
3461
3462
HIR253000
mmmm
PAGE 144
A X knew there was an audit by somebody.
S Did you ever receive a copy oi that audit?
A I personally did not.
2 Did you ever see a copy oi the audit.
A I think the first time I saw the copy of the audit
I think was when I iound out that your investigators had
visited Earl Silbert's ofiice and been interested in that
audit. I don't recall seeing it beiore that time.
2 That audit was in your files?
A Apparently.
2 Are you familiar with an organization called the
International Youth Trust Jamaica Limited?
A I am not familiar with it.
2 You indicated earlier that you had signed a
contract with the National Security Council for your
consultancy; is that correct?
A Correct.
2 Was that a renewable contract that had to be
renewed annually or was it a contract that ran from the
beginning oi your consultancy until the end?
A I think it is the latter.
e Old you> in order to be paid, have to submit a
voucher for the services performed?
A I submitted hours, hours that I worked, yas .
2 Did that include a description of what you worked
mmm
345
KAflE ;
3M63
3>46(4
3116S
3M66
31467
3U68
3U69
31470
347 1
3U72
3473
3474
3475
3476
3477
3478
3479
3480
3481
3482
3483
3484
3485
3486
3487
'^mim
PAGE 145
No, it did not, just included the numbtti of hours.
Uera you a menber of the CIA transition team in
HIR2S3000
on.
A
2
1980?
A Yes.
Q How did you happan to bacoma a nembar of the CIA
transition team?
tlR. SILBERT: Unlass I hear an explanation as to
hou that relates to this inquiry, I am going to direct hira
not to answer .
MR. OLIVER: Wall, Hr . Silbert, the director of
CIA, Mr. Casey, was a prime player in this drama and the
individuals with whom Mr. Godson was associated at the
National Sacuxity Council were members of the Intelligence
Directorate. A number of the activities that have been
discussed here have a relationship to CIA activities, at
least indirectly, and what I am trying to do is to lay a
foundation for questions relating to his association with
the CIA, which was, as you know, involved in the transfers
of arms ts Iran.
That is the purpose of my question was to lay a
foundation for those questions.
HR. SILBERT: ona difficulty with that entire area
is I don't know whether it relates to qM^fi|^jS^ mater lal or
not, but in as far as anything that Godson did involving
IWSSffJ
346
iiNtiftssro
MAHE: HIR2S3000 I II lULiI IW^' ■ " • — " PAGE 146
3>488 classified natarial, I hav« never discussed it with hin, as
3'489 I have said, repeatedly during this meeting. I Know nothing
3(t90 about what he did, if it involves classified activity,
3(491 unless I get a clearance I am going to advise him not to
3U92 answer it, because he is not going to testify about matters
3M93 X have not discussed with him.
3(49>4 KR. OLIVER: I believe we discussed this very
3>495 subject during the interview in Hr . Fryman's office some
3U96 weeks ago. There was no objection raised.
3197 MR. SILBERT: Hell, an informal conversation is one
3(498 thing. This is a deposition.
3(499 rtR. OLIVER: Are you directing the witness not to
3500 answer the question?
350 1 HR. SILBERT: If the answer in any way relates to
3502 classified material--I don't mind asking him, of course,
3503 about the activities that he did: how you got selected. I
350(4 will direct him not to answer that question. I think that
3505 gets into his own personal political private affairs beyond
3506 this, particularly 1980, well beyond the scope of this
3507 committee's mandate.
3508 HR. OLIVER: So you are directing him not to
3509 answer?
3510 HR. SILBERT: Correct.
351 1 BY HR. OLIVER:
35 12 2 When did you first meet Walter Raymond?
I
I
UNCLASSIFIED
347
1!'
'itJ
NAME: HIR253000
PAGE 1147
3513
3514
3515
3516
3517
A Around the time I was in the transition team.
2 Did you have any association with Halt Raymond from
that period of time, professional association, I mean from
that period of time until the time that you became
consultant to the Security Council?
itiAssro
348
Hxnt-
3518
3519
3520
3521
3522
3523
3S2t(
3525
3526
3527
3528
3529
3530
3531
3532
3533
353t(
3535
3536
3537
3538
3539
35*40
35>t1
35U2
HIR253000
RPTS CANTOR
DCMN niLTOM
(3 = 00 ]
PAGE 1(48
MmmB
HR. SILSERT: X thijik that is an at«a as I
understand it> not that h« can -tall ma, othar than give
conciusory statanant, that doas gat into CIAftalated, or may
gat into CIA-ralatad matters that I have never discussed
with hin, and he has not discussed with me because I don't
thinK he is able to. He is not to answer the question, not
confirming or denying that he had any relationship during
that period oi time.
HR. OLIVER: You are directing him not to answer
the question based on your consultation with him?
HR. SILBERT: Yes, and so you understand, one, I
have some real questions about relevance, but
understand that my real concern is the potential classified
nature of the inquiry, and the fact that I am not cleared, I
have no clearance, have never discussed any such subject
with Hr. Godson. I just want to make clear for the record
hare that Z don't know whether it is classified or not. I
certainly do not want to confirm or deny any prior
relationship.
BY HK. OLIVER'
e Itr. Godson, after you became a consultant to the
mmmn
349
ONCLASSiREO
PAGE 1149
NAME: HIR253000
3543 National Sacutity Council, did you discuss with Walt Raymond
SSUU a projact to sacute privata-sactor iunding for Cantral
35<45 Amarican public diplomacy activities?
35U6 HR. SILBERT: I really should have left 20 minutes
35147 ago. I uill stay fiva mora minutes, and then I'm going to
3548 have to leave. If ua have to reschedule, we uill
35>49 reschedule.
3550 riR. OLIVER: I would like to mark as Godson Exhibit
355 1 Ho . 7 a document on National Sacurity Council stationery,
3552 which bears coramittaa identification No. H-SSUUO. and ask
3553 the reporter to mark that exhibit.
355U [The following document was marked as Godson
3555 Deposition Exhibit 7 for identification: )
3556 BV HR. OLIVER:
3557 2 I would like to ask Mr. Godson to examine that
3558 document.
3559 [Discussion off tha record. ]
3560 MR. OLIVER: Back on tha record.
3561 BY MR. OLIVER:
3562 2 Hr. Godson, that is a Uhita House memorandum
3563 related to Cantral American private-sector funding. There
35614 is a paragraph thaza that refers to conversations that Mr.
3565 Raymond had with you about funding. In examining that
3566 document, do you recall those discussions with Mr. Raymond?
3567 A I recall having discussions with Hr . Raymond
UNCLASSIFIED
350
3568
3569
3570
3571
3572
3573
3571*
3575
3576
3577
3578
3579
3580
3581
3582
3583
35814
3585
3586
3587
3588
3589
3590
3591
3592
jHLy
HIR253000 UllULflWliS Hb-a^ PAGE ISO
vaguely. This was not something that I regarded as a major
priority or project for me > and ji^ I vaguely recall this
conversation/ but I did not spend almost any time on Central
American matters.
2 Ware you involved in any way in assisting Mr.
Raymond with acquiring private-sector funds for Central
American public diplomacy programs?
A I certainly was not involved in assisting Mr.
Raymond in any way in acquiring funds as part of my NSC
responsibilities .
C Here you involved in any way other than your NSC
responsibilities?
A X don't recall almost any project relating to
Central America. There may have been one or two, but it is
not something that I regarded as a major priority for
myself .
S Do you recall. Mr. Godson, ever leaving a message
on the 9th of January. 1986. for Admiral Poindexter, who at
that time was the deputy —
A No. I think by that tine ha had become the National
Security Adviser.
fi Hhere you indicated there might be an attack on him
in the press soon?
A I did not leave that message. Hy appointments with
Admiral Poindexter, I never personally set up my
HNtinssra
351
3S93
3S9U
3S9S
3596
3S97
3S98
3599
3600
3601
3602
3603
360<4
3605
3606
3607
3608
3609
3610
36 1 1
3612
3613
36114
3615
3616
3617
HIR253000
yNCLASSIRED
PAGE 151
appointments. I don't recall personally having left that
message. Normally it would have been one secretary to
another that I was dealing with. I would have asked Mr.
DeGraffenreid's secretary who set up the meetings usually.
I do recall having requested the meeting, a meeting, whether
it was for that day or not, and I recall that.
2 Do you remember having such a meeting or having
such discussion with Admiral Poindextar?
A About?
2 About an attack on him in the press?
A The word • 'attack' • is not correct. He talked
about the press, his general views about meeting with the
press, and the word "attack. •• as I said, it was not my
term and I suspect it was a secretary who interpreted, one
secretary interpreting to another.
I was concerned that the Admiral maintain some
contacts with the press, that he have contact with the
press, and I was encouraging him to do that, and I thought
that this would lead to him batter able to explain what he
was trying to do.
2 Did you ever talk to him or did you ever seek to
talk to him about handling accounts?
A Yes. The references to accounts in that discussion
is as the Admiral remembered it when Congressman Fascell
asked him the question. The word •• accounts'' refers to
UNCUSSIHEO
352
NAHE
3618
3619
3620
3621
3622
3623
362U
3625
3626
3627
3628
3629
3630
3631
3632
3633
363M
3635
3636
3637
3638
3639
36<40
36U1
36X2
HIK253000
UNCLASSIFJEO
PAGE 152
iW
dlffaz«nt pzojacts. Ilka in assisting'^gency wa usa tha sana
word at tha National stzatagy Inioznation cantaz. Paopla
hava diffazant accounts. Soma paopla deal with businessmen,
soma with tzada unions, soma with lawyazs, soma with youth,
and that is what that zafazzad to, and I was asking tha
Admizal who did ha want ma to ba zasponsibla to to infozm
ma, as I was tha consultant to tha National Secuzity Advisez
and as ha was tha fozmaz deputy and now ha was tha new
National Sacuzity Advisaz, whom should I make my main point
of contact to know about all my accounts. That is tha
zefazenca to tha tazm ''accounts'' thaza.
2 It did not zefaz to bank accounts in any way?
A It did not zaiaz to bank accounts in any way.
2 Did you avaz tall Admizal Poindaxtaz about youz
fund-zaising activities on bahali ofj
A No, I did not.
2 Did you avaz tall anyona alsa in tha White House oz
tha National Sacuzity Council about these activities othaz
v Can rN'i?H-o.rcj .
than Colonel Nozth. Mr . ^ r i ■ a 1 1 i ■ i > r, whoa you said you
thought was auaza of it?
A And HcFazlana to the extent he was pzesent at that
meeting, just at that one meeting. No, I did not discuss it
with anyon a else . I regarded it as something that should ba
kept disczajU^.
fi Did you avez discuss tha legislative eiiozts to
m
?i
353
NAni
36143
36I4U
36(45
36146
3647
36>48
36(49
3650
3651
3652
3653
365<4
36S5
3656
3657
3658
3659
3660
3661
3662
3663
36614
3665
3666
3667
UNCUSSIFIED .
HIR253000 IIIHIII nUiJII IL.1^ PAGE 153
acquiia congrasslonal funding fot tha daitoctatic xesistanca
with any oi tha organizations that waia involvad in tha
Centzal Anazican fteedom program? Ara you iamiliar with tha
Central Amarican fraedon program?
A No .
2 Do you know Dan Kuykendall?
A No.
2 Lo you know Bruca Camaron?
A I don't think so.
r
2 Do you know Pann Kj^mble?
A Yas.
2 Did you avar discuss with Pann IC^mbla his
activitias in ralationship to congrassional funding for tha
danocratic rasistanca?
A No.
i
2 Uara you awara that Mr. Kxmble and Bruca Cameron
took control of an organization callad IDEA, which was
headad by Rob Ouan. latar becana tha Cantar for Oamocracy in
tha Amaricas?
A No. I don't know it, and if it is so now, you axa
informing ma for tha first tima .
Q Kara you awara of any othar individual in tha
National Sacuzity Council or associatad with tha National
Security Council as consultants who ware askad by Colonel
North to raise funds fori
UNCLASSIFitB
82-710 0-88-18
354
NAME:
3668
3669
3670
367 1
3672
3673
3674
3675
3676
3677
3678
3679
3680
3681
3682
3683
368U
3685
3686
3687
3688
3689
3690
3691
3692
HIa2S3000
A No.
2 For any other activities in Central America or
related to the democratic resistance?
A Did I have any information about any other
individuals ?
8 Yes.
A No, I don't think so. Central America, X repeat,
was not an area of my major concern.
Q You indicated earlier that you had known about the
Institute for North-South Issues you thought from the
National Endowment for Democracy, the fact that they had a--
A I had been interested in the work of the National
Endowment for Democracy. Generally, I think I reviewed
their reports.
2 So that is how you think that came into your view?
A I think so.
2 You indicated you had set up I believe a
foundation, a 501(c)(3) foundation, within the last year and
a half.
HR. SILBERT: I think he said in the last year.
BY HR. OLIVER:
2 In the last year?
A We are in the process of acquiring charity status.
I can't remember the exact legal terminology for a 501(c)(3)
organization. Correct.
HNWSSife
355
UNCLASSif'EO
Kknt: HIR253000 W I 1 Vl-J~5li V 8 « iiSLU P*" 155
3693 fi Did that antity racaiva any substantial funds?
3694 MR. SILBERT: What is thi. relavanca oi that
3695 qu«s<ion?
3696 . BY MR. OLIVER:
3697 2 Did that antity racaiva any substantial funds that
3698 waza connacted in any way with Cantral America or the
3699 democratic resistance?
3700 . A Mo.
370 1 2 Did you ever meet John Donahue?
3702 A Ho. I already said that. I have answered that
3703 question.
370M 2 Do you know whether Hr . John Donahue knew that the
3705 contribution that he was making to Heritage was forj
3706
3707 A We are talking about the John Donahue, I assume
3708 it's the same man.
3709 2 The #100,000 contribution.
37 10 A That person in the Heritage Foundation, yes. I
37 11 don't know. I didn't talk to him. I have never talked to
37 12 him, to my knowledge.
37 13 2 But you did raquast that the President send him a
371U latter?
37 15 A I asked Colonel Korth li the President could send
37 16 him a letter, yes.
3717 2 So you knew who ha was?
L
356
NAME:
37 18
3719
3720
372 1
3722
3723
3724
372S
3726
3727
3728
3729
3730
3731
3732
3733
3734
3735
3736
3737
3738
3739
37i»0
37141
3742
HIR253000
UNClftSSlFit
Y&s . I knew who he was.
n
PAGE 156
2 Did you participate in any way in the drafting or
suggesting language for the drafting of the letter to Hr .
Donahue ?
A I could have. I don't recall. It wasn't major.
HR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this as Godson Exhibit Ho. 8, and to show it to the
witness .
[The following document was marked as Godson
Deposition Exhibit 8 for identification:]
BY HR. OLIVER:
2 Have you had an opportunity to examine the
document? This is a memorandum on National Security Council
stationery dated October 9, 1985, from Oliver North to
Robert HcFarlane, subject, ''Presidential Letter to Hr .
Donahue,*' the committee identification number is N-301482.
Hr . Godson, in the substantive paragraph on the
first page of that exhibit, which is requesting that the
President sign the letter to Hr . Donahue, it says that the
President's latter thanks Hr . Donahue for his support and
encouragement of our policies in Central America. ''This
letter fulfills a commitment ue made to Dr. Godson during
our discussions last month.*'
Do you recall that commitment being made to you?
A No, I don't recall a commitment being made to me at
357
NAME '
37«43
37U14
3714S
3746
37147
3748
37M9
3750
37S1
3752
3753
375M
3755
3756
3757
3758
3759
3760
3761
3762
3763
376U
3765
3766
3767
HIR253000
'JNCLASSinED
PAGE 157
all. X wouldn't hav« known Hr. Donahua's nana at that
point .
S Didn't you tequast that this lettax ba sent?
A Tha only tiraa I had met with Mr. KcFarlane/ and
this is a letter iron Horth to HcFarlana requesting that ue
make a comnitment, at tha time I met with them to discuss
this, no comnitment was made to send any letter.
2 But does this memorandum reflect your request to
Colonel North that a latter be sent to Hr . Donahue?
A I think it reflects ny request to the Colonel.
fi Did you indicate to Colonel Korth what tha
substance of that letter ought to ba?
A I could have.
Q Did you nantion to hin that ha should ba thanked
for the ha to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B?
A Ho, I wouldn't have phrased it — I nean I did not say
that.
e But it's your understanding that Hr . Donahue knew
that a contribution was foi
J1R. SILBERT: I think tha witness has testified
about five tines ha has never talked to Hr . Donahue, so how
ha could hava an understanding of what Hx . Donahue
understood is a little beyond ny conprahension.
BY HR. OLIVER:
i^^
f!^
bmvL
358
NAnr =
3768
3769
3770
377 1
3772
3773
377U
377S
3776
zin
3778
3779
3780
3781
3782
3783
37814
Jid If r . Sleas* tell you that Ilx . Donahua thou
HIR253000
9 Dia nr . sieas* tell y
was naklng a contribution t
ght ha
X Yas.
2 Did you tall Colonel Hoith that Hz. Donahue had
nada a contribution toj
A At the point where I requested the letter, I said a
Mr. Donahue has made a contribution. Can we send hin a
letter. Mr. Slease asked if wa could send hin a letter to
indicate that money is going to where it's supposed to go.
2 Did you provide Colonel North with the name and
address?
A I assuma I did.
MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions, Mr.
Godson. Thank you very much for your patience.
(Whereupon, at 3=20 p.m., the deposition was
adjourned . ]
Mimim
359
LAW OFFICES
SCHWALB, DONNENFELD, BrAY & SiLBERT
■ o'KamiOMAL coM^OHAtioM
■ UWTOM A SCMWAkB
CNAI*i.C9 M OONNKorCLO
JOHN M BAA*
CABl J SikBCHT
JAMCS K STCWABT
PMiL'P o onccN
OAVIO J COOTIM
ALLCN V rARBcn
BTCVCN AAMrATTl
LUClNDA J AACH
AATMlCiA L MAHCn
CAM* M rCLDMAM
AMT O auOMiC"
KCiTH n ANOcnsoM
KCVtM M OfMAN
OOuOkAS C MCACblSTCI
OAvrD N tcllCN
AOCLC * «IMMIL*
JAMCS A ftABKtK. JB
CniC M RATZ
STCBMCN m MATTMCWS
TCO >N O C
September 8, 1987
aUITC 300 CAST
lO«S THOMAS JtFFCHSON STUttT.
WASHINGTON. D- C, 20007
AREA CODE 202
Oa5-7BiO
TCLCCOPICR 202-337-0676
TELEX •S7007
The Honorable Lee H. Hamilton
Chairman, House Select Committee to
Investigate Covert Arms Transactions
With Iran
2187 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-1409
Attention: John W. Nields, Jr., Esquire
Chief Counsel, House Select Committee
to Investigate Covert Arms Trans-
actions with Iran
H-419, The Capitol
Washington, D.C. 20515
Thomas Fryman, Esquire
Counsel, House Select Committee
to Investigate Covert Arms Trans-
actions with Iran
H-419, The Capitol
Washington, D.C. 20515
Re: Deposition of Roy Godson
Dear Messrs. Nields and Fryman:
The Select Committee has requested Professor Godson to
appear for a deposition on Thursday, September 10th. As a
continuation of his cooperation with the Committee, Professor
Godson has agreed to appear. He previously had voluntarily
appeared, upon request, for a lengthy interview by staff of
the Committee.
Mr. Fryman informed me that the deposition will cover two
areas: fundraising for a charitable entity in Central America
360
The Honorable Lee H. Hamilton
September 8, 1987
Page 2
and "Switzerland." The purpose of this letter is to confirm
this representation. At Mr. Godson's interview, many
questions were asked him that regrettably far exceeded the
legitimate scope of the Select Committee's mandate of
responsibility. They had nothing to do with what Chairman
Hamilton has described as the "two policies [which] led to the
inquiry: The arms sales to Iran, and the diversion of funds
from those sales to the Nicaraguan contras." Washington
Report, Congressman Lee Hamilton, August 19, 1987.
Mr: Godson, in a spirit of cooperation, responded to all
the irrelevant questions at his interview, questions which
also grossly invaded his privacy. During the meeting.
Professor Godson was assured by Committee counsel that the
interview was confidential and disclosure by those present was
not permitted. Despite this explicit assurance of the
confidentiality of the interview, any questioning of Professor
Godson at his deposition that is irrelevant to the specific
responsibilities of the Committee is obviously unacceptable
since this deposition becomes part of the record of the
Committee's proceedings. See Rule 7.5, Rules of the Select
Committee.
With respect to questions about fundraising for a
charitable entity in Central America the Committee is aware
from Professor Godson's interview that to his knowledge and
belief, this had absolutely nothing to do with diversion of
Iran arms sales' funds to the Contras. Professor Godson is
very concerned about any dissemination of information that
might jeopardize the sensitive, delicate position of the
recipient of these funds. He assumes and expects that the
Committee's questions to him on this subject will reflect that
it shares his concerns.
As to Switzerland, from Professor Godsons' interview, the
Committee is aware that to the best of Professor Godson's
)cnowledge and belief, he was not involved in any activities
that relate to the policies identified by the Chairman in his
August 19, 1987 Report. He will not object to appropriately
tailored questions that seek to have his best recollections
placed under oath. Open-ended questions that go beyond
whether his educational activities did relate to the policies
as described by the Chairman and which seek details of his
activities in Switzerland, activities having no relationship
to these policies would, of course, be inappropriate.
361
The Honorable Lee H. Hamilton
September 8, 1987
Page 3
I assume that the Committee agrees with the general ground
rules and understandings set forth in this letter. If not,
please advise me by the close of business on Wednesday,
Septmber 9, 1987, in order to try to work out
misunderstandings before the deposition.
Sincerely,
i^/JU-
Earl J. Silbert
EJS/ab
362
tCE H HAMITON MMMAHA. CHAJMMAN
DANTE • FASCELL FLORIDA. VICE CHAIRUAN
THOMAS S FOLEY WASHINGTON
ftTCR W ROOIHO. JK-. NEW JERSEY
JACK lAOOKS. TEXAS
LOUIS STOKES OHK>
US ASnN WISCONSIN
EDWARD P BOLAND. UASSACHUSETTS
ED JENKINS GEO«HHA
JOHN W NIELDS Jfi. CHICF COUNSEL
W NEIL EGGLISTOH, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL
CASEY MILLfR. STAFF DIRECTOR
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE
COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN
UNITED STATES CAPITOL
WASHINGTON, DC 20515 .
(202) 225-7902
/^-^ 0'
IING ' /
MICHIGAN '
OtCK ChENE* WYOMING
WM S BROOMFIElO MICHIGAN
HENRV J HVOE ILLINOIS
JIM COUBTER NEW JERSEY
BILL MtCOLlUM FLORIDA
MICHAEL OlWINE OHIO
THOMAS R SMEETON MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR
GEORGE VAN CLEVE. CHIEF MINORITY COUNSEL
RICHARD LEON DEPUTY CHIEF MINORITY COUNSEL
September 9, 1987
Earl J. Silbert, Esq.
Schwalb, Donnenfeld, Bray & Silbert
Suite 300 East
1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, NW
Washington, DC 20007
RE: Deposition of Roy Godson
Dear Mr. Silbert:
I have received your letter of September 8, 1987,
concerning the deposition of Roy Godson.
I do not agree with many of your statements about the prior
interview of Mr. Godson or about our discussion of the scope of
tomorrow's deposition, but I do not see any purpose to be
served by arguing about our differences. For your information,
the scope of the deposition will be defined by the subject
matters of the investigation set forth in House Resolution 12
establishing the House Select Committee. A copy of that
resolution is enclosed for your convenience.
The deposition tomorrow will begin at 9 a.m. in Room B-336
of the Rayburn House Office Building. The deposition and
transcript will be classified "TOP SECRET."
Very truly yours.
Thomas Fryman
Staff Counsel
''l<^Vr-.>«o^
Enclosure
cc: Hon. Lee H. Hamilton
John W. Nields, Jr., Esq.
363
Washington
Report
CONGRESSMAN
LEE HAMILTON
&th DISTRICT. INDIANA
vex.. XXII NO.
TOE iram/cxkhra hearings
The end of the public hearings ph«ie of the
Iran/contra invcit igation is an eppropriste tine
CO respond to tome of the aost frequently asked
questions about the hearings.
WHY vmE THE HEARINGS HELD? The hearings
were held because in the course of the conduct of
the goverranent's business sooething went seriously
wrong. T\K> policies led to the inquiry: The anas
sales to Iran, and the diversion of funds from
those sales to the Nicsraguan contras. The first
began with a docment the President forgot, and
the second began wi t hout hi s knowl edge . The
President's decision to sell arms secretly to Iran
contradicted the long-held » widely supported
public policy of the l^ited States to make no
concessions to terrorists, to remain neutral in
the Persian Gulf War, and to stop the flow of arms
to Iran. By selling arms to a nation officially
designated by our govemnent as a terrorist state,
■tajor damage was done to U.S. credibility, and
President Reagan was catapulted into the most
serious policy crisis of his presidency.
WHAT WAS THE COfTRAL ISSUE OF THE HEARINGS?
The central question before the House and Senate
select coanittees has been: Can our
constitutional system of shared powers between the
Congress and the President be made to work in the
fomulation and inplestentation of foreign policy
in a dangerous world?
WHY DID THE OCHMITTEES MOLD PUBUC HEARINGS?
The coomittees were created to serve as fact-
finding panels and to investigate process
failures. The Congress gets information
principally through holding hearings. Although
the conmittees obtained large amounts of evidence
through staff work and private depositions, open
hearings were held to contribute to the public
understanding of these events and the workings of
our systca of govermenc. Extremely copies facts
had to be analyzed and testimony drawn out of
witnesses who often were urKooperative. Because
the task of the coanittees was to inform rather
than prosecute, strict courtroom rules of evidence
did not apply, witnesses could be forced to
testify if granted United iomunity, and witnesses
could consult lawyers before answering questions.
WHAT WERE T>1£ HAJOR CX)NCLUSIQN$ OF THE
HEARINGS? The coamittees found no "smoking gim"
evidence that President Reagan was involved in
wrongdoing such as engaging in a cover— up or
approving the diversion of ams sales money to the
contras. They did show that he allowed his aides
to carry out secret policies with little
supervision. The hearings revealeo several
probloM with the particular means chosen by the
i^ainistration to try to achieve its worthy goals
of freeing the hostages and seeking democracy in
Nicaragua: First. there was too little
accountability for decisions and actiona taken in
the nane of elected officials. A MBall nunber of
officials made policy outside the democratic
process. Second, there was too such secrecy and
deception in govemsoent. Crucial information was
withheld from the Congress, from ia^rtant allies,
and from the Aoierican people. The Secretaries of
Defense and State, and even the President were
not informed of major foreign policy initiatives,
ai^ were supplied misleading information. Third,
33 AUGUST 19, 1987
I quEsnoNs and answers
too often intelligence estimates were used as a
tool to make policy look good, rather than as a
tool for making good policy. Fourth, there was
too much reliance on private citizens and foreign
govemnents to carry out American policy. Fifth,
covert actions should always be used to
supplement, not to contradict, our foreign policy.
They should not be used to impose a foreign policy
that the American people do not support. Finally,
the Constitution gives important foreign policy-
making powers to both the President anl the
Congress. Our foreign policy cannot succeed
unless they work together and trust one another.
WHAT DID THE HEARINGS ACOOMPUSH? I view the
hearings as an essential part of the self-
cleansing process of our system of government.
Because of the hearings, we can see more clearly
what needs to be done to make our system work
better. I am encouraged by the President's steps
so far, including changing White House personnel,
prohibiting National Security Council manbers from
undertaking covert actions, and prorniaing to
report covert actions to Congress promptly. Also
encouraging is the cooperation shown between the
President and the Congress in the recent Central
American peace effort. The hearings should have a
lasting impact on the decision-making process,
acting as a deterrent to short-cutting the system.
My guess is that it will be a long time before a
national security advisor makes a major foreign
policy decision without informing :he President,
as Admiral Poindexter did.
WHAT KEY QUESTIONS ROiAIN? /toong the
unresolved questions are: Does the $13 million in
proceeds from the arms sales belong to the U.S.
govemnent or private businessmen? Was there a
cover-up in Noveokber 1986 when these events began
unraveling? What was the extent of third country
involvement? What did the President really know?
Why did he agree to sell arms to Iran? What
created the climate in the White House that led
aides to believe secrecy and short-cuts were
permitted? What role did CIA director Casey play?
The conaittees will not attempt to resolve all the
contradictions in the testimony. The independent
counsel appointed by President Reagan is deciding
whether criminal actions should be brought against
any of the participants. The CIA is investigating
whether any of its OBployecs violated the law.
WIU. THE CDftlintES RECOfffiND LECISUnON?
Overall, my stinsc is that the solution to the
problems re-.<ealed in the hearings lies less in new
structures or new laws than in proper attitudes.
Although sane reconnendations will be made, the
connittees did not design their work to develop
legislation. Fundamentally, what we have to do is
to return to the constitutional and traditional
ways of making decisions.
HOW MUCH DID THE HEARINGS COST? Although
various efforts were taken to minimize costs, such
as holding joint House-Senate hearings and
borrowing connittee and agency staff, the cost of
the congressional investigation will be sane $4
million, including substantial costs for security.
The cooaittees have heard 250 hours of public
testiaony, and have examined well over 200,000
dociflsents. The coamittees will complete their
report by October, and then go out of existence.
364
Ll-O
-I - - - -
365
ii uci I icmuiidi Youiii Year e^oiinnissior
IS33 K Si. NW. Suite 03O • WiSShlnglOn. DC 3CXX>S • (303)683 0040 • Ifclex 440636 U5YC Ul
Floyd O Brown
JT y V C Direcioc
July 24, 1984
The Honorable Michael Araacost
Uoder Secretary for Political Affairs
United States Departaent of Stat*
22nd & C Street
WashlivgtOD. D.C. 20520
Dear Mr. Under Secretary:
A* the Chalman of the Governing Board of Trustees of Che United States International
Youth Year Cosmlsslon, I an writing to express my personal concern over the pending
developoents involving the International Youth Conference scheduled for Kingston,
Jamaica In April of 1985. This conference, primarily supported by the United States
goverment, has taken on the appearance of becoming yet another forum for antl-denocractic
leftist operating uttder the guise of balanced representation. Accordingly, I have
called an esergency meeting of the Governing Board of Trustees of the United States
International Youth Year Commission fcr Tuesday, August 7, 1984, to revlev what role.
If any, the youth of the United States will take at this conference.
I hold grave reservations over the direction and scope of the youth conference. At
this time, there appears to be a systematic attempt to exclude from the structural
management of this conference the youth members of the major ruling Parties in the
Western dmocracies. Your office, Mr- Under Secretary, specifically excluded youth
leaders with ties to the Reagan Admlnlstrstlon from the list of potential members of
the Secretariat for the conference that was sent to the Jamaican govermect. Names
of youth leaders from the goverments of Margaret Th»tcher and Helmut Kohl have been
ignored, the youth leaders from the goverrmients of Chiang Chlng-kuo and Chun Doo Hwan
have been specifically excluded. But most importantly, it is your office and the
National Strategy Information Center, under the direction of Dr. Roy Godson, that is
making all of the major decisions on behalf of the international democratic youth.
Mr. Under Secretary, this is completely unacceptable. Dr. Roy Godson does not report
to the United States International Youth Year Commission, yet he recommends to the Jamaican
govermenc the youth to serve on their Secretariat. He holds a dinner meeting in
Washington, D.C. for the Chairman of the Jamaican conference, yet falls to inform, much
less invite, representatives of the International Youth Year Commission who support the
Keagan Administration. Mr. Under Secretary, this is not fairness nor is it balance for the
development of an international youth conference on democracy.
The United States International Youth Year Commission, Inc. is the official body recognlred
by President Reagan and the United States government for the purpose of representing and
coordinating all U.S. lYY activities. We currently maintain a maibershlp of 173 national
and regional youth and youth serving organizations representing over 50 million young people.
DESIGNATED BY THE US COVEBSMENT AS
THE OFRCIAL NON GOVERNMENTAL COORDINATING ORGANEATION FOR INTERNATIONAL VOLTH YEAR
366
July 2«. 1984
Umier Secretary Araacost
page 2
We vork hard to reach balance and accoodatlon in all of our activities. The utter lack
of balance betveet. stated goals and the resulting action In the development of the Jamaican
Secretariat Is completely contrary to the lofty ideals ve have established, and met. for
ourselves.
The Jamaican Secretariat is proposed to consist of 18 menbers, nine Jamaicans and nine
youth from the democratic regions around the world. The United States International
Youth Year Commission Is not allowed to choose its own represeiuative to that board.
Dr. Roy Godson has made that decision. Similar non-desiocratic pratices have excluded
conservative European, Central American, African, Australian, and Asian youth from
serving on that Secretariat.
I cannot allow my organization to serve as a tool of this goverment, or Dr. Godson.
The current action Is nothing but meddling in our Internal affairs. The monbershlp
of the United States International Youth Year Commission will not places its credibility
in the hands of those who choose not to inform us of their actions. We will participate
as full partners in any process, but not as puppets.
If the Jamaican conference is to be a propaganda tool for those who do not represent
the prevailing philosophies of the majority of the democratically elected governments
In this world, then perhaps little reason exists for U.S. participation or financial
support.
Mr. Under Secretary, I wish to be clear: there is no desire to overturn the
proposed neabers of the Secretariat, nor do I wish to "run" the conference. However,
If I am to recommend to my membership further participation. If we are to "support" this
conference In every sense of the word, then changes must be made. Balance between the
Left and the Right is a must, but more importantly, this must be a conference of youth,
by youth and for youth if it is to suceed. The officers and agents of government are
welcome for their advice, but not to select (or be) our leaders.
If you desire additional information, please be assured that I am available at your
convlence. I look forward to your reply.
I am, most respectfully yours,
J /
^aniel ^ohen' '—
Chair d^n
Governing Board of Trustees
V
cc: The Honorable Jeane Kirkpatrlck, Gregory J. Newell, Robert McFarland, Faith
Whittlesey, Governing Board of Trustees.
DLC : kh
sec ; Vsr^ &&th-c-^ -(-rtfw, T-^^Tf^ \drLG^^^-v\
367
369
'■' .-^ .-.»->/• .■,- -
- •.'••<l:.*i-."...-*:»fli
370
MEMORANDUM
NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL
INFORMATION
^ DEPOSITION
I EXHIBIT
I 7
August 29, 1983
6023
i^ 3 3 440
MEMORANDUM FOR JOHN M. POINDEXTER
FROM: WALTER RAYMOND, JR. ^- '' '
SUBJECT: Central American Outreach
As you are aware, I continue to get a number of proposals
dealing with how we can generate a private sector program to
support the President on Central America. A refinement of an
earlier proposal from Roger Chapin is attached at Tab II.
Chapin had earlier communicated with the Judge. I have sent
this to Tony Motley.
Bill Casey called on August 26 and would like to follow up on
his idea to have a meeting with five or six key public re-
lations specialists. This is referred to in my earlier
memorandum. I put him off until after Labor Day.
I think you are right about deflecting this to State. I
believe that it is, however, going to be quite time consuming,
even recognizing that the work done within the Administration
has to, by definition, be at arms length. The more I reflect
on Gil Robinson's probable move into State as Shultz's public
diplomacy coordinator, the more I think he could be the glue
to put this sort of public-private relationship together. He
has done this sort of thing before. He has public relations
experience, knows how to operate behind the scenes, has the
political connections, and lastly, will be in the right place:
The Department of State. I do not think it is overlapping
with Motley or Reich. They will be plenty busy doing their
regular jobs and will benefit from what Gil could do. You
might want to touch on this with the Judge. When I
philosophized a bit with Bill Casey (in an effort to get him
out of the loop) , he was negative about turning the ball over
to State, but very positive about someone like Gil Robinson
working on the problem from within State.
Attachments
Tab
I
II
r''..'::;'!^ on
under pr-v'siors :
Ey B. Ro^Ef. l.-*.icn:i
My memo, same sub j , Aug 9|
Chapin mgmos, Aug 22 & 19,
83
83
621V
<
V
371
U 33441
lii r . >^ riLU
ii:9
MEMORAMDUM
INFOR.V.ATION NATIONAL SECURITY C^<^U5:Cipgg3
MEMORANDUM FOR WILLIAM P. CLARK
FROM: WALTER RAYMOND, JR.
SUBJECT: Private Sector Support for
Central American Program
Several Administration supporters have identified steps which
they believe are important to generating public opinion
support for our policies in Central America. The various
proposals call for the creation of a bipartisan coalition of
concerned citizens to generate majority support for the
President's policies. This requires detailed informational
programs which highlight developments and realities in the
region. It also requires programs which are designed to go
beyond simply reaching the committed. We must move out into
the middle sector of the American public and draw them into
the "support" column. A second package of proposals deal with
means to market the issue, largely considering steps utilizing
public relations specialists--or similar professionals--to
help transmit the message.
A quick review of proposals which are known to me include:
-- A group of public relations specialists met with Bill
Casey a few days ago. Faith also met them. The group includ-
ed Bill Greener, the public affairs head at Philip Morris and
two or three others. They "stated" what needed to be done to
generate a nation-wide campaign. Several elements were
identified. The first, a fund-raising effort under the
direction of someone like Walter Wriston. Secondly, an
effective communications system inside the Government. The
overall purpose would be to sell a "new product" — Central
America — by generating interest across-the-spectrum.
-- A group including Charlie Wick, Faith, myself, Alan
Bell (Public Relations) and Tom Korologos (Lobbyist) met to
discus*, how to get th« story out into the countryside. In
addition, to traditional speaking tours by USG officials,
Presidential statements, etc, the Korologos-Bell proposals
focussed on the hiring of a public relations firm. They
recommended Ron Nessen. Nessen has subsequently presented a
proposal.
— Faith subsequently advised Charlie Wick that she has
the prospect of funding from th« Mellon-Scaife organization
(Terry Slease) . Slease wants Tom Cantrell, currently number
two in congressional relations in the Department of Energy, to
run the program. This would rule Nessen out. Slease also
speaks of a $1000 per plate fund raiser to get the activity
iir^
^f;l^^0C3_nn'
Ui
372
going. It is not clear whether Cantrell's role isfis J3440
tund-raiser or as a political activist. Nor is it clear '^
whether the goal is an "American Coalition" or simply a
pressure group. It sounds like an expanded "Outreach Group."
Roy Codson^anri I have discussed this and we are
concerned that efforts undertaken by Faith's office tend to be
confined to preaching to the converted. We recommended
funding via Freedom house or some other structure that has
credibility in the political center. Wick, via Murdoch, may
be able to draw down added funds for this effort. Ron Nessen,
or the Wagner-Baroody firm recommended by Cliff White, could
be hired by Freedom House.
Dan James. He has the support of Jeane Kirkpatrick,
Leo Cherne, Al Burkholder and others. He has submitted a
paper which spells out the parameters of the problem. He also
wants to include Latin Americans in the activity. His
proposal calls for the creation of a bipartisan Americas
Coalition. He believes he can get funding from Ross Perot,
Clem Stone and others. Evidently Anne Armstrong will make
calls for him. James would like to have a fund raising dinner
in which Jeane Kirkpartrick has reportedly agreed to be a key
note speaker. James is a good publicist but not a
particularly good organizer. His role would be in support of
a larger effort.
Roger Chapin. He has a similar proposal for a group
called Stand Tall America which would generate public
knowledge and understanding of the Central American program.
Chapin is untested on foreign policy issues although he has a
*-J^*ck record of generating public support for causes. He
believes the first issue is clarifying the message, examining
marketing techniques and then generating a broad popular
support base. He %#ould play a support role. Chapin adds that
he thinks the only way to mobilize the American people is to
make it clear that the Central American issue is a threat
because of the Russian involvement.
Les Lenkovsky (Smith-Richardson Foundation) believes
that we need to create the equivalent of a "Coalition for the
Present Danger" to generate public support. Tom Korologos, in
a privat* conversation, said what one needed to do was to
identify • competent activist who would take on the organiza-
tional job — this includes principally fund raising , public
relet ions /packaging , substantive input" ! He said someone like
a Bill Greener or a Tom Cantrell might serve. Ultimately, we
would want to flesh out the committee to make it suitably
non-partisan. Several of the names we considered for the
Central American Caeunission would be very constructive
participants.
The above discussion identifies several issues. I think there
is consensus that we should strive for the creation of a
.9 -~
'^m
373
Un:.Ln^;iir;tU ' 23445
genuinely bipartisan, centrist structure to generate public
support around the issue of Central America. If we agree that
we will set up a comr'.ittee and select an activist to put the
thing together most other issues fall in line: fund raising,
marketing, substantive input. Many of the people above could
play a role within the structure. A central office in the USG
should be identified on the principal point with this outside
, independent group. This could be the NSC, the White House
(Whittlesey) or Otto Reich as Central American public
diplomacy coordinator. While it is possible for Faith to be
the point of contact, her mandate makes it difficult for her
to deal with the media and the Congress, two of the principal
audiences for this effort. This might argue for keeping the
contact within the public diplomacy context where substantive
support could be supplied, as requested.
We need an organizer. I would like to lead with our silver
bullet. I recommend that Peter Dailey be asked to put the
group together (spend one month) and turn it over to an
outside coordinator, such as Bill Greener (or Cantrell) .
Coordination: Bob Sims
i^»^i..;^.^jiiEO
17
375
mmm
HSfrS^-O^,-— /87
1
1 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM T. GOLDEN
2 Wednesday, May 6, 1987
3 United States Senate
4 Select Committee on Secret
5 Military Assistance to Iran
6 and the Nicaraguan Opposition
7 Washington, D. C.
8 Deposition of WILLIAM T. GOLDEN, called as a
9 witness by counsel for the Select Committee, at the
10 offices of the Select Committee, Room SH-901, Hart Senate
11 Office Building, Washington, D. C. , commencing at 11:14
12 a.m., the witness having been duly sworn by MICHAL ANN
13 SCHAFER, a Notary Public in and for the District of
14 Columbia, and the testimony being taken down by Stenomask
15 by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER and transcribed under her
16 direction.
(m^
Partiany Oeclassified/Reteased on M' ^ -
under provisions of LO. li»o
by N. Menan, National Security Cound
UHCLISSIEe
COPY Mn I r\ nr ^ rOP'ES
376
uHekftSSie
1 APPEARANCES :
2 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret
3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan
4 Opposition:
5 JOHN SAXON, ESQ.
6 < Associate Counsel
7 CLARENCE H. ALBRIGHT, JR., ESQ.
8 Associate Counsel
9 On behalf of the House Select Committee to
10 Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran:
11 JOSEPH P. SABA, ESQ.
12 On behalf of the Department of the Army:
13 ROBERT WINCHESTER, ESQ.
14 Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Army
15 for Legislative Affairs
16 COLONEL JOHN WALLACE
Wk
377
BHtU^B
1
C N T
E N T S
2
EXAMINATION
ON
BEHALF OF
3
WITNESS
SENATE
HOUSE
4
William T. Golden
5
By
Mr.
Saxon
4
6
By
Mr.
Albright
28
7
By
Mr.
Saxon
29
8
By
Mr.
Albright
39
9
By
Mr.
Saba
59
10
By
Mr.
Saxon
60
11
By
Mr.
Albright
62
12
By
Mr.
Saxon
62
13
By
Mr.
Albright
62
14
By
Mr.
Saba
63
15
By
Mr.
Saxon
64
16
By
Mr.
Saba
65
17
By
Mr.
Saxon
66
18
By
Mr.
Saba
66
19
By
Mr.
Saxon
66
20
E X H I
BITS
21
GOLDEN EXHIBIT NUMBER
FOR
IDENTIFICATION
22
1
60
umi&siiD
378
Af\
1 PROCEEDINGS
2 Whereupon,
3 WILLIAM T. GOLDEN,
4 called as a witness by counsel on behalf of the Senate
5 Select Committee and having been duly sworn by the Notary
6 Public, was examined and testified as follows:
7 EXAMINATION
8 BY MR. SAXON:
9 Q Mr. Golden, state your full name for us,
10 please, sir?
11 A William Thomas Golden.
12 Q And what is your address?
13 A
14 Q You are a retired Army warrant officer; is
15 that correct?
16 A Yes, that's correct.
17 Q What do you do now?
18 A I am a civilian employee of the Department of
19 the Army at Ft. Huachuca, Arizona.
20 Q Tell us, if you would, about what we have come
21 to taiow as YELLOW FRUIT. If you would, start just with
22 the beginning of your involvement and then, if necessary,
23 back up with the history of YELLOW FRUIT.
24 A Okay. In July of 1983 I was serving In the
25 American Embassay in Managua, Nicaragua, as the Assistant
OlWCSSSlflfl)
379
UKI^mifliD
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Army Attache. I was assigned from there to a project
called YELLOW FRUIT under the cover of Business Security
International in Annandale, Virginia.
YELLOW FRUIT was an organization that was set
up to provide operational securityJ
mssm
380
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
m
Q And what was your position to be? Were you
hired to work for BSI?
Q If you would, tell us what you know to be the
origin and genesis of YELLOW FRUIT prior to your
involvement.
A As I understand it, YELLOW FRUIT was created
by the Department of the Army, like I say, to support
these clandestine operations.
381
UNCUSSIHED
VCcypi, 7
UNCLASSIFIEO
382
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q You had some Involvement, though, I believe,
with something called SEA SPRAY?
i
I
383
^JjtWill
3 Q Tall us about Colonal Dale Duncan.
4 A Colonel Dale Duncan was the project manager of
5 YELLOW FRUIT. I believe he is the person who prepared
6 the position paper that created YELLOW FRUIT. He was an
7 Army intelligence major at the time. I think he was
8 promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in August of 1983.
9 Colonel Duncan was project manager, like I say, of YELLOW
10 FRUIT when I came on board in the organization.
11 Colonel Duncan ran Business Security
12 International. It has just been established in
13 Annandale, Virginia. I worked directly for Colonel
14 Duncan. When I arrived in August of 1983, one of the
15 first jobs that I was given was to establish
16 accountability for covert funds that had been advanced to
17 individuals and had been expended by the organization
18 during the time it was created.
19 During my audit of those funds I discovered
20 what I believed to be irregularities in financial
21 management. I discovered that there was some large-scale
22 fraud on the part of Colonel Duncan and possibly other
23 members of the organization.
24 Q We'll come back in a moment to the particulars
25 of what you discovered and how that played out. Let me
KRSSIFtED
384
D
10
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
ask you to give us a brief description along similar
lines of Lieutenant Colonel Frederick Bayard.
385
/^^ //^'^
^^
St?-? 10 0-88-14
387
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
IS
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE WITKESS: Initially the money was in the
form of what we call, I believe, a MIPR. It's just a
piece of paper that has a series of numbers. It's called
a fund citation in the Army.
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
Q MIPR is an acronym for —
A I honestly don't know what the acronym means.
It's like a check, basically, in the Army.
COLONEL WALLACE: It's a Military
Interdepartmental Purchase Request.
THE WITNESS: Okay. It's a strange name, I
388
liCUSMD
14
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
know, but It's just a piece of paper and It Is recognized
in all the military departments. In other words, if you
are doing a project, you are a project manager and they
send you money to do your project, that's the form it
comes in in the white world, in the real Army.
389
yNCUSS!FI[B
u^A/ 'S ^ '^
m%\
390
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Let's get Into that now, then. Give us the
exact sequence of how the Investigation got started. You
say it was triggered by the annual audit that was to be
done of BSZ?
A It wasn't really triggered by that. That was
a part of it. The noming of the audit Colonel Duncan
had never turned in any vouchers to me. Everyone else in
the organization had. He didn't want to turn then in to
me for some reason. I couldn't figure out why. On the
morning of the audit he did present me with some
receipts.
Q This would have been when?
U«CDtSStFI!D
391
21
1 A This was on — I believe it was sometime in
2 August.
3 Q Of 1983?
4 A No. It was on the first of September, I
5 believe, somewhere around that time frame.
6 The receipts that he turned in to me did not
7 appear to be authentic, and so once the audit failed
8 Colonel Duncan, Mr. Patterson and their wives went to
9 Europe on what they told me was a vacation. And after
10 they had departed I had paid an American Express bill
11 that was set up for government use for $9,600 in plane
12 tickets, which the receipts had been taken out of the
13 envelope and I had no idea what the bill was I was
14 paying.
15 So I got in touch with American Express and
16 found out where the money had gone to, and it was a
17 travel agency over in Maryland, and I started tracking
18 down the receipts for that expenditure because I needed
19 that for the audit.
2 And what I found was that Colonel Duncan had
21 paid for he, his wife, Mr. Patterson and Mr. Patterson's
22 wife's vacation to Europe out of U. S. Government funds.
2 3 So then I started looking at the receipts that Colonel
24 Duncan had turned in to me, and started calling the
25 companies these receipts were from. One of them was for
UNfilMfe
392
IINMW
22
1 $33,000, the other was for $56,000 for supposedly
2 purchases of equipment.
3 And what I found is the receipts were bogus.
4 They were fabricated receipts basically. So at that
5 point I prepared a memorandum for Colonel Bayard, who was
6 'in charge during Colonel Duncan's absence, stating what I
7 had found and what I believed to be gross financial
8 misconduct on the part of Colonel Duncan, turned it over
9 to Colonel Bayard, who went to Colonel Longhofer, and
10 Colonel Longhofer asked me if I would do an investigation
11 of Colonel Duncan since I was most familiar with the
12 funds at that time.
13 I said I would only do that if he would be
14 willing to provide a letter appointing me as an
15 investigating officer because I worked for Colonel
16 Duncan. He was my senior officer, and if I'm going to go
17 an investigation of him as an investigator I wanted it in
18 writing.
19 So Longhofer agreed to do that. He gave me
20 the letter appointing me as an investigator. I did what
21 I could do between that time and the time Colonel Duncan
22 was to return from Europe, which was September 17, and I
23 provided Colonel Longhofer with a preliminary report of
24 investigation stating what my findings were and what
25 should be properly investigated by the CID Command.
llimSSIHED
393
DHCUSme
23
1 What eventually happened is that when Colonel
2 Duncan came back off his vacation in Europe he was not
3 placed under administrative leave or anything. He was
4 given full access to the BSI offices just as if nothing
5 had happened. He had access to all the evidentiary
6 material that I had stored there, and then I believe on
7 the 21st or 22nd of September Colonel Longhofer called a
8 meeting at CIA headquarters with Colonel Duncan, himself,
9 Bayard, Patterson and myself where he confronted Duncan
10 with the allegations that I had made and stated that
11 there was going to be an investigation.
12 He was going to appoint Pisen to do the
13 investigation, and he was going to appoint Mr. Patterson
14 to do an investigative audit of the office, which I
15 objected to because I said Patterson's involved in this
16 because he's gone to Europe at government expense and
17 he's part of the investigation. But Patterson said well,
18 I'll pay the money back and that seemed to satisfy
19 Longhofer that that was okay.
20 So Patterson did his thing at the office there
21 and turned it over to Colonel Longhofer. Then I got a
22 call from Colonel Longhofer saying go home, don't ever
23 come back to the offices again; we'll call you, don't
24 call us type thing.
25 So myself and Mr. Belcher were fired, sent
ifflfflrano
394
DNGkftSHD
24
1 home, told to do nothing basically.
2 MR. SABA: Excuse me if I interrupt. So it's
3 clear, when you say you were fired, do you mean that you
4 were told not to go to the BSI offices?
5 THE WITNESS: I was told to go home and do
6 ' absolutely nothing, that I would be called at the right
7 time. So I sat home until my birthday, which was the
8 14th of October. I remember it very clearly. I got a
9 call from Darlene Rush. She said Colonel Duncan is back;
10 he's in command. He's been placed back in command and
11 you are to show up on Monday morning with your keys to
12 the office, any credit cards you might have — that type
13 of thing.
14 So there was a meeting at 1:00 on Monday, the
15 17th of October. Well, we all showed up and Colonel
16 Duncan stood up and said I have been vindicated of all
17 the allegations made against me and I am now back in
18 command and certain people are going to be fired
19 immediately and the operation is going to be phased out
20 bacausa of all the exposure the unit has had.
21 And I was the first on his list. And I went
22 in and he said you've got until the first of November to
23 find a job someplace; otherwise I will report you excess
24 to the military personnel center and you will just get an
25 assignment, whatever shakes out. And the same thing with
rnmrn
395
ilNtkASSlFiED
25
1 Mr. Belcher. He was a contract employee and they
2 terminated him right on the spot.
3 And so I went home and made contact with the
4 FBI and initially they thought I was a nut and they put
5 me in their crank file at the FBI because they had never
6 heard of anything like this before. And I eventually had
7 to get hold of an old friend of mine in the FBI in
8 Albuquerque who knew me very well to vouch for me before
9 they would even talk to me.
10 So I laid all of this out. I kept copies of '
11 most of this stuff and I laid it out for the FBI, which
12 they thought was absolutely incredible. I talked to Ted
13 Greenberg, who was the Assistant U.S. Attorney.
14 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
15 Q Is that in the Eastern District of Virginia?
16 A Yes. And then I made contact with Major Ed
17 Frothingham, who was the Staff Judge Advocate at INSCOM,
18 and laid all of this on him. And so what eventually
19 happened is that myself and Mr. Belcher and some of the
20 othar people who knew the misconduct that had taken place
21 and that there had been a coverup, they came forth to
22 INSCOM and provided sworn statements on what they knew.
23 Q That would be you, Belcher, Risen and Kane?
24 A I believe so, yes. And eventually there was
25 what I believe they call a 15-6 investigation by General
ymssiftED
396
\lH(lt^s^^
26
1 Peters, who was an Army General, and then he recommended
2 that there be a further investigation, I believe. I
3 don't recall exactly the terminology that it was, but all
4 the people that were accused of wrongdoing that had been
5 substantiated, they were placed on administrative leave
6 ' and an investigation ensued after that.
7 Q And to your knowledge what ultimately happened
8 to these individuals?
9 A What ultimately happened was that Colonel
10 Duncan was indicted by a Federal grand jury on some of
11 the charges. Ted Greenberg didn't want to try Colonel
12 Duncan on everything because there was a lot of
13 classified information going to be involved in the trial,
14 so he indicted him on some other charges.
15 Q Dealing with financial irregularity?
16 A Yes. It was fraud. And then once that
17 happened Colonel Duncan turned around and sued myself,
18 Belcher and Pisen for just a variety of things. He
19 claimed that w« had bugged his house, we had illegally
20 surveilled him, we had done just a number of things. And
21 that went on for quite some time.
22 In the meantime Colonel Duncan went to trial,
23 was convicted in Federal Court, got three years in prison
24 for his crimes. But the law suit kept going. He had
25 sued the Army as well. On the day of trial he dropped
IIHCHSSMB
397
wwmm
27
1 all of his claims against the individuals — myself,
2 Belcher and Pisen — but maintained his suit against the
3 Army.
4 And the way that it turned out, the defense,
5 our defense, never got presented because at the end of
6 their presentation the judge said there wasn't enough
7 evidence for the defense to even put on anything, so he
8 just threw the whole thing out. So that's what happened
9 there.
10 Then eventually Colonel Longhofer went to
11 trial and was convicted of obstruction of justice and a
12 variety of other crimes and was sentenced initially to
13 two years at hard labor at Ft. Leavenworth, fined
14 $24,000, and a letter of reprimand, what have you.
15 Q Did anything happen to Mr. Patterson?
16 A Nothing happened to Patterson at all.
17 Eventually Colonel Bayard was court-martialed for
18 financial misconduct. He was convicted. I believe he
19 was given 18 months in prison and a substantial fine. I
20 think it was $50, 000-something. And then eventually
21 three years later Colonel Duncan was court-martialed on,
22 Z think it was, 24 felonies. He was convicted of 2 3 and
23 he was sentenced to ten years at hard labor, fined over
24 $500,000, and given the equivalent of a dishonorable
25 discharge. For an officer that's called a dismissal from
inrasm
398
111
28
uim^SifiD
1 the service.
2 Of course, he's appealed all of these things,
3 with some success, on the criminal side, as I understand,
4 in Federal court.
5 MR. SAXON: Let's go off the record a minute.
6 ' (A discussion was held off the record.)
7 BY MR. ALBRIGHT:
8 Q Did Colonel Longhofer do any traveling while
9 Duncan and Patterson were in Europe when you were
10 conducting your initial investigation?
11 A Yes, he did. I think it was two days before
12 Colonel Duncan and Patterson were scheduled to come back
13 to the U.S. I found out that Colonel Longhofer got on an
14 airplane and flew and met them in Berlin that night and
15 turned around and flew back to Washington the next
16 morning.
17 Q That would have been approximately 16
18 November; is that correct?
19 A He left on — I believe he left on the evening
20 of the 15th of September, flew to Berlin, met Patterson
21 and Dxincan, and came back on a different airplane the
22 same day that Duncan and Patterson came back. He got
23 back about two hours before Duncan and Patterson.
24 Q Do you know why he made that trip?
25 A I don't know for sure why he made that trip.
IWEHSSBID
I
399
yiiS4ASSIN[D
29
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
but I know that Colonel Duncan and Patterson smelled a
rat when they came bade. They knew that something was
up. So I suspect he flew over and told them what was
going on.
Q But you have no independent evidence of that?
A No.
Q Just so the record is clear, the terms
ind SEA SPRAY are classified terms; is that
correct?
A The term SEA SPRAY is no longer classified.
MR. SAXON: Off the record.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
Q Mr. Golden, it is my understanding that the
words SEA SPRAY and ISA by themselves are not classified,
but when given some description of what those operations
and activities involve there is a classification and
sensitivity level; is that correct?
A Yes. It's Top Secret-SI — TS/SI ~ when the
description is given.
Q I believe you had provided a statement to Army
CID that talks about a particular concept paper you
recall having read at the time that you were employed by
BSI and a part of the YELLX3W FRUIT operation; is that
^)\ vv
400
\immm
30
1 correct?
2 A Yes, that's correct.
3 Q What triggered having your recollection
4 refreshed on that issue?
5 A Hell, I had mentioned this before back in
6 '1983, I believe, when I was talking with investigators
7 then and with the U.S. Attorney. And basically what
8 happened is I was called by a reporter from CBS News
9 about a Swiss bank account.
10 Q Roughly when was this?
11 A Sometime around the first part of April.
12 Q Of this year?
13 A Yes. In fact, I received two calls in
14 December of 1986. I received a call from a reporter from
15 CBS News who asked me about YELLOW FRUIT and he wanted to
16 know if there were any foreign bank accounts associated
17 with YELLOW FRUIT, and I referred him to the Public
18 Affairs Officer of the Army and I didn't answer any of
19 his questions.
20 Q Was that individual Mr. Stringer?
21 A I don't believe I remember what his name was.
22 I really don't remember who the guy was.
23 Q I'm sorry — Mr. Rosenberg?
24 A It coul<' have been and probably was. I just
25 don't recall.
UNebtSMD
401
< ■>
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
■10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
31
And then in April I got a call from Mr.
Rosenberg of CBS News, and he told me that he had
independent confirmation through a European source that
there was a Swiss bank account that had General Secord,
Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Mr. Patterson and myself
as signators to the account, and again I referred him to
the Army Public Affairs Officer.
And at the same time I called Major
Frothingham, who is a lawyer in the Army, and apprised
him of the situation. Then they asked me to come to
Washington to talk about it and they wanted to know if
there was a possibility that an account like that could
have been established when I was a part of YELLOW FRUIT.
Q Okay. We'll come back to the bank accounts in
a moment. One of those plans that you worked on I
believe was a concept paper dealing with, among other
things, possible diversion of equipment, supplies, arms
to the contras from foreign military sales
is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Tell us what you recall about that paper.
^mmm
402
~ "|d||o|j| 32
1 A Okay. There was a concept paper that was
2 brought to the BSI offices by Colonel Longhofer, I
3 believe. It could have been someone else, but for some
4 reason I believe it was Colonel Longhofer and
5 who brought this to the BSI offices. It was a plan that
6 * BSI was going to support in the future. And it was in a
7 little black binder. It was probably maybe 30 or 40
8 pages at most. It didn't have any letterhead stationery.
9 It wasn't signed by anyone.
10 It^talked to the fact that in the leadoff
11 paragraph it stated that this plan was a contingency plan
12 that would be implemented in the event that funding for
13 the contras was cut off for any reason. It went on to
14 talk about the possibilities of supplying the contras
15 with support —
16 Q When you say cut-off, you mean by legislative
17 act?
18 A The plan itself didn't say that, but that is
19 what was talked about in the office was the Boland
20 Amendment. Everybody was worried about the Boland
21 Amendment. It was going to cut off funds for the contras
22 and we would all be out of a job and how are we going to
23 get around this thing.
24 Q And the Boland Amendment was mentioned by
2 5 namel
INlMSIFe
403
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
liHaASSiED
33
A Yes, it was. But this plan talked about the
various ways of supplying the contras indirectly, and one
of the methods that was described wasi
'military aid in some form or a military
sales program of some type, and it talked to the fact
that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H could be the
materials and supplies for the contras, and then it would
be given^^^^H^^^^with the understanding under the
table that those items that had been padded would be
given to the contras!
It also talked to a supply system that would
require aviation assets and that an airfield would have
to be constructed in order to support that operation. It
talked about two possibilities.
Q Let's come back to the airfield in a moment.
Do you have any idea why!
A I have no idea whatsoever.
Q Was there anything in the concept paper that
would suggest ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Icont acted or that this
had been explored with .
A Yes, it was. I believe that that was the
case. They had been picked because they were receptive
or they would be willing to do this.
MR. SABA: Was the specific type of aid
discussed?
m\mm
404
ONSUSSIEIED
34
1 THE WITNESS: It talked about uniforms. I
2 remember that specifically. It talked about supplying
uni forms ^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H that be
4 over to the contras. There was a shopping list of items.
5 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
6 ' Q Were there items on the shopping list that
7 would have been lethal — guns, ammunition?
8 A I just do not recall. There could have been,
9 but I just don't know.
10 Q But it clearly would come under the heading of
11 military equipment?
12 A Oh, yeah, absolutely.
13 Q Do you recall any dollar figures being used
14 for either the total amount of the FMS salesj
15 or that portion that would have been padded to be
16 diverted to the contras?
17 A I don't recall. It seems like there was
18 discussions of money in this plan, but I don't recall if
19 it had dollar figures or not. It talked about who was
20 going to pay for this and it talked about DOD picking up
21 a big chunk of this, and it was going to be a hard point
22 to sell at DOD, and some of it would be supplied by the
23 Agency and it named various other groups that would
24 supply money somehow to this thing.
25 Q Do you recall what any of those were?
i?!
JS V
405
1«?
35
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
'mi
m
A No, I sur« don't.
Q Do you recall the names of any individuals in
that concept paper who night have been party to putting
it together or who would be necessary to actually
implement it?
A I don't recall if there were any names like
that or not. I know that agencies were named. There
were names of individuals in the plan itself, but th«y
were dealing primarily with the airfield.
Q When you say agencies were named, what do you
mean?
A Well, like the CIA, Department of Defense,
those types of things.
Q Has DSAA, Defense Security Assistance Agency,
mentioned?
A It could have been, but I honestly just don't
remember .
Q Was the Department of the Army specifically
mentioned?
A It was mentioned in the context of supporting
this plan, the YELLOW FRUIT operation
Q Was there anything at the beginning —
anywhere in the plan but most likely at the beginning —
406
36
1 which gave any indication of its origin, such as
2 "pursuant to discussions" or "as has been tasked" or "as
3 has been requested" , et cetera?
4 A I believe the best I can recall there was a
5 draft Finding that was a part of this plan. I don't
6 remember if it was an attachment or in the beginning it
7 talked about a Finding.
8 Q By a Finding do you mean what we have come to
9 think of as a Presidential Finding used in covert
10 operations?
11 A Yes. I believe that's what it was talking
12 about. I believe that's what it was, but I'm not 100
13 percent sure of that. I just remember the word Finding
14 and there was either a draft Finding or there was talk
15 about it in this plan.
16 Q How would you characterize the language in
17 this concept paper?
18 A Well, my background in working with various
19 intelligence agencies for 20 years, I recognize a DOD or
20 an Army plan right off the bat because of the
21 construction of it — five-paragraph field order type
22 construction. And all those plans are constructed the
23 same way. This was not done in that way. It was done
24 more in generalities. It was done in the type of thing
25 that I've seen come out of the CIA. It was that type of
I
407
37
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
plan, discussed things in general terms.
Q Would it be fair to say the inference you drew
was that this was not prepared within DA?
A I don't believe it was prepared by Army people
simply by the way that it was written and the involvement
that we had with the CIA through^^^^^^^^Hit was just
a natural assumption on my part that it came from the
CIA.
Q Did you ever ask anyone where this came from?
A Ko, I don't believe so.
Here countriesJ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mentioned?
A I know Costa Rica was mentioned as a location
for an airfield, that had been selected as the location
for the airfield, It discussed
Q By '*thi8 idea" we're talking about the
proposed airfield now in Costa Rica or somewhere in
Central America?
A That's correct.
Q All right. Tell us about that.
A It discussed the fact that this supply network
408
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
y
W^M
38
would have to have aircraft support to deliver supplies,
that type of thing, and it discussed the two potentials.
The other was down in
Costa Rica. Now Z didn't remember this name at the time
when I was interviewed by CID, but I've seen the name
John K4>11 in the press since then, and Z believe that is
probably the name of the individual, because it was an
American living in Costa Rica who owned this huge ranch,
just tons of property, and that was the place that they
were going to build this airport to run the supply
network.
Q Has there a trip or trips made in terms of
site selection?
A
Q Do you have any idea what happened to this
concept paper — physically to the document itself?
A I don't )cnow. Z know when Z left BSI it was
in the safe. Zt was still there in the safe at BSZ when
Z left.
y
409
UNd^i^SlFiiD
39
1 Q And to your knowledge has it surfaced in the
2 course of these many investigations?
3 A I personally have not seen it.
4 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: (Resuming)
5 Q I apologize if I missed this while I stepped
6 out. But you said there was a Finding discussed. What
7 time frame was the Finding discussed?
8 A This was like in August of 1983.
9 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
10 Q It was a draft Finding, was it not?
11 A As best I can recall it was either a draft
12 Finding or it talked about this Finding. None of these
13 things were signed. I mean, there was nothing signed in
14 that book. It was all just on bond paper.
15 Q But would it have been a proposed Finding that
16 would be necessary for the President to sign in order to
17 carry out this operation, or is it that the concept paper
18 outlined a particular operation that could perhaps be
19 done pursuant to an existing Finding?
20 A No. I think it had to have a Finding in order
21 to do this and do it properly. See, every operation that
22 I've ever been associated with in the 20-something years
23 that I've been involved in the intelligence business I
24 have never seen a signed Finding. They are always draft
25 when you get them and you start building your plan of
yrasssm
410
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
40
support based upon that Finding.
And so I personally have never seen a signed
Finding ever. I've only seen draft Findings and that's
how the plans come and you work on them assuming that
Finding is going to be signed, and you never really know
for sure if it is.
Q For the record, do you have any knowledge that
this concept was ever implemented or that implementation
was attempted?
A I believe implementation was attempted. At
least the mechanisms were being put In place to do that,
because they started surveying the airfield. I believe
that an account was established or was in the process of
being established when I left there to support that -
operation.
Q A financial account, bank account?
A Yes.
Q At some point shortly after reading this
concept paper you were out of town on travel, after which
you C2une back and there were some bank signature cards to
sign. What can you tell us about that?
A
411
KUSSIFIEB
p^^e V/ ^
,u. ^"
omssiFiEo
412
UNCLASSIFIED
%e V
z
UNCUSSIFIED
413
^mssim
ToTTfL
UNCLASSIFIED
414
•• in-*' ; ^? 'I
44
THE WITNESS: No. I went ro Dover, Delaware,
yNKHssmo
415
UNSUiSsra
45
1 where you register corporations. There's a street you go
2 down there. There must be 500 lawyers on the street.
3 It's got signs hanging out all over the place. You know,
4 register your corporation here, $5, you know, for the
5 paperwork — that kind of stuff.
6 Okay. The lawyers over there, they are
7 shysters. They are a dime a dozen. Everywhere you look,
8 there's lawyers. And they will go down and do this stuff
9 for you, you know, for $5, $10.
10 And so I went over to Delaware and I went down
11 there and there was a line of people a mile long
12 registering corporations. I mean, you know, shady-
13 looking characters. And I didn't want to go in there
14 with a badge and credentials and try to get the
15 information on]
16 So I went down and found myself a lawyer on a
17 corner and I paid him $20 and he went down and got
18 microfiche of this company for me. I went to lunch, came
19 back, and he had it for me. And then I brought that back
20 and gave it to Duncan and these guys.
21 MR. SABA: Do you recall what information was
22 on the microfiche?
23 THE WITNESS: I remembei
24 ^^^^|and some other person. I don't remember what the
25 other guy's name was. It was another guy. It was a two-
u
416
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
CttfliO
46
nan corporation/^. Their assets was $100. There was one
piece of paper in this file.
MR. SABA: Did you visit the offices|
at that time? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
THE NO. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^B
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
Q After you left Delaware, where did you go?
A
Q And when you came back what did you find
yrassinEB
417
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
47
waiting for you?
Q What else do you recall about the signature
cards?
&W&
85>-7in n.ss-if;
418
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. SABA: Do you recall the country of
domicile of any of those banks?
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
You do recall, though, some being in a non-
English language?
nmsm
419
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
II
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
wmmfm
49
A Yeah. It seems to me like they were in
English anB French. One thing was written in English,
one written in French. But I'm not absolutely sure of
that. I know there was some foreign language there.
Q Did you ask anyone what these signature cards
related to?
A I just assumed that they were for the
projects. I mean, I didn't really have to ask. I just
assumed that's what they were for. There would be no
other reason for them.
Q Do you have reason to also assume that one or
more of them related to the concept paper you had seen
about support for the contras after the Boland Amendment
was enacted?
A Yes,
Q In the concept paper did it mention possible
use of banks outside of the United States for that
account?
I don't recall that it mentioned that.
It
DNKSOTIEO
420
UUCIASMJ)
50
1 seems like it did, but I cannot remember for sure.
2 Q During the course of earlier investigations
3 outside of the Iran-contra affair investigations did you
4 have occasion to )cnow that you might have signed a bank
5 signature card for Creduit Suisse?
6 A No.
7 Q Tell us how you came to know that you might
8 have done that.
9 A In April, early April, I received a call from
10 a fellow named Rosenberg who works for CBS News, and he
11 told me that he had independent confirmation from a
12 European source that there was a Swiss bank account that
13 had General Secord, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Mr.
14 Patterson and myself as signators to that account. And I
15 referred Mr. Rosenberg to the Army P\iblic Affairs
16 Officer, and then I got in touch with Major Frothingham
17 here in Washington and told him what Rosenberg had said.
18 And he asked me if I could remember ever
19 establishing any account like that, and I related to him
20 the story about the plan and signing the signature
21 cards. But as far as I knew none of those accounts ever
22 got established because BSI was done away with shortly
23 after that, and I just assumed that none of those
24 accounts were ever established.
25 But there could have been. So he asked me to
UimSStffD
121
'^^^ ' lAMi-li-JI
1 come to Washington fast as I could get here, so I flew
2 all night and got here the next morning and sat down and
3 gave the CID the statement on what I could remember about
4 it.
5 Q And then what happened next?
6 A I was interviewed by the Independent Counsel's
7 office — several lawyers, a bunch of FBI agents — and
8 we went through this nutroll again, just like we're doing
9 today — the same thing over and over.
10 Q Did you ever have occasion to communicate with
11 Credit Suisse?
12 A Yes, I did. I called Mr. Rosenberg after I
13 got back to Arizona and I asked hio for the account
14 number of this Swiss bank account.
15 Q And did he tell you it was]
16 A Yes, he did.
17 Q And he told you that that was the number he
18 had been given by his independent European source?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Okay. And then what happened?
21 A I then placed a call to Switzerland and I got
22 the telephone number through the operator and I called, I
23 believe, that night. But there was a time difference and
24 there was no answer. I called the next morning about
25 6:00 in the morning and I talked to whoever answered the
U
f^OOIMLb
422
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
.12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
52
phone. You )cnow, they referred me to some banker.
And I told him that I believed that there was
an account that had been established In 1983, that I was
a signator to the account, and I wanted to find out if
the account actually existed. So I gave him the account
number and he told me, yes, the account exists. And I
said I want to get all the records of that account
because — - go ahead.
Q Was this Mr.^^^^^Hyou were talking to?
A No. Initially I talked to someone else. And
when I told him what I wanted to do he referred me. He
said let me put you on to somebody else. He referred me
tQ^^^^^|. And I talked to Mr.^^^^H, went through
the same drill with him, and gave him the account number.
And you could hear him working a little machine in the
background, and then he started asking me personal data
cjuestions — date of birth, wife's first naune — just a
bunch of information which I gave him.
And then he said, well, you know, what do you
want? And Z said I'd like to get copies of all the
records of the account.
Q Did Mr.^^^^H or was it the first
individual to whom you spoke at the bank who confirmed
the account number?
A It was, I think, really both. The first guy I
423
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
mmms
53
talked to, I gav* him th« number and he pulled It up and
he asked ne what I wanted. And I told him that I wanted
to get copies of all the records of the account, that I
needed them because some of these guys were in trouble
with the law and I wanted to make sure that I didn't have
any problems. I wanted to see what was in the account.
Q And when they confirmed the number did they
tell you that their records showed you had one too many
^^^■in
A That was Mr. ^^^^^B When I talked to him I
gave him the number. When he gave ma the information on
the account he said it had too many^^^^lin the account
number.
Q And their records showed the account number as
A Yes.
Q And did Mr.^^^^^Hconfirm that the account
showed as signatories General Secord, Colonel North, Pat
Patterson, yourself, and was Robert Owen also on that
account?
A Yeah. I believe Owen was in the account as
well.
Q So he confirmed as to Secord?
A What I did, he asked me some questions about
the account. I gave him the number and told him what I
\
WIISSIFIED
424
«; 'J =\ a ^ * * ^-1 Tfc
54
1 wanted. He said who else is on the account. And I said
2 Secord, North — I had the names written out — Owen,
3 Patterson, myself.
4 Q And he confirmed the existence of General
5 Secord on the account?
6 A Well, he didn't say yes, I have the account
7 here and these are the names that are on it. He was very
8 cagey and he wanted to know what I wanted. You know,
9 once he pulled the information up, he wanted to know what
10 did I want to do, what did I want to transact. And I
11 said I wanted copies of everything that has been
12 transacted in that account since it came into existence.
13 And I said that I would be willing to come to
14 Switzerland to get the information, how did I go about
15 it, what did he need from me. And he told me he needed a
16 letter, and he gave me the specific information to go in
17 the letter. He needed exemplars of my signature about
18 four or five times — you know, that type of information.
19 He needed passport numbers, a variety of information that
20 I was to put in the letter to send to him to get the
21 account information.
22 Q We'll come to that in a moment. At some point
2 3 he did what you have characterized as confirming these
24 various names. How did that happen?
25 A He asked me who was on the accounts and I read
mmmi
425
]|4^1A^\
55
1 off the names to him, and then I asked him specifically.
2 Before I hung up, I said, look, I don't want to come all
3 the way to Switzerland and not be able to get anything.
4 I want to make sure that my name is in this goddam
5 account with these guys. And he said yes, it's here, you
6 know. You are a signator to the account.
7 So that was it.
8 Q But did he ever affirmatively say that General
9 Secord was a signator?
10 A No. He never said, you know, these guys are -
11 all signators to the account during that conversation,
12 no.
13 Q Did he ever say that as to Colonel North?
14 A No.
15 Q He never said it as to Pat Patterson?
16 A No. I provided him with those names when he
17 asked me who was on the account with me.
18 Q And he never said that as to Robert Owen?
19 A No.
20 Q But he didn't —
21 A He didn't deny any of it. He acted to me like
22 when I gave him those names and I gave him my date of
2 3 birth, that information, it seemed to put him at ease
24 that he was dealing with a person that he had the
25 information on.
426
UHGIASHD
56
1 Q Did he tell you anything else about the
2 account — when it was set up, whether there were
3 successor accounts, et cetera?
4 A He asked me when it was set up and I told him
5 in August or September of 1983. Now in a subsequent
6 ' conversation, after I mailed the letter to Mr.
7 asking for this information, I received a call from him
8 the following Monday or Tuesday — I believe it was a
9 Tuesday — early in the morning.
10 Q You mailed your information on a Thursday?
H A I think it was a Thursday. I sent it by
12 overnight express mail and I received a call from him
13 very early in the morning. The first cjuestion he asked
14 me was am I working for the U.S. Government. And I told
15 him that I had retired from the government, and he said,
16 but you're only 40 years old. And I said, yes, but I
17 spent 20 years in the Army and in the Army you can retire
18 regardless of your age at 20 years.
19 Then he kind of danced around for a while
20 jUsout the account. He said, you know, this account, it's
21 very difficult. He kept telling me how difficult it was
22 on this account. And eventually he said it evolved into
2 3 other accounts. Do you know the other account numbers?
24 I said, well, I don't know right offhand any other
2 5 account numbers, but I can root around, talk to old
BimOTEO
427
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
57
buddies and see what I can find out, and maybe I can find
out what they are.
And he said he needed the other account
numbers in order to provide me with everything that I
wanted.
mother
letter to Mr.^^^^^^^tating that I wanted what he had
on the original account and that I would attempt to try
to get the other account numi^ers to give to him at some
later time.
And Z wrote the letter and sent it out, and I
haven't heard anything from Mr J
Q You mailed that approximately April 19?
A That's correct.
Q Did you ever while at BSZ make any deposits to
Swiss bank accounts?
A No.
Q So as far as you know nothing that you would
have done would have utilized such an account?
A No.
Q And for the record, at the time you were at
BSI you were not aware that there was an account with BSI
as part of YELLOW FRUIT in a Swiss bank?
A No, I did not.
yHtiraFitD
428
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
58
Q Do you recall having seen any other financial
documents — deposit slips, check registers, record of
wire transfer, et cetera — involving Swiss bank
accounts?
k There could have been. I just don't recall
specifically.
absolutely sure
Q And
you recall there having been a ban]c^B
A There was more than one^^^^^^^^^^H There
were several
Q And you recall that!
may have been one of the accounts that Patterson used to
launder money?
A Yes, that's correct, because X recall there
was a deposit. It was a large one. Z think it was
$250,000 that was made to the BSI checking account from
that bank.
Q Do you know, for the record. Colonel North?
A Z have been to at least one meeting, maybe
two, where Colonel North was there.
m
429
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
59
Q Was it unrelated to YELLOW FRUIT?
A It was totally unrelated to YELLOW FRUIT.
Q And you have had no dealings with him on
anything part of the Iran-contra affair?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q For the record, do you know General Secord?
A I don't believe I've ever met General Secord.
I think he was in southeast Asia the same time I was. I
have heard his name batted around for years in southeast
Asia.
Q And, for the record, do you know Mr. Owen?
A I don't believe I've ever met Mr. Owen.
BY MR. SABA:
Q Just a few questions. Returning to the matter
in which BSI did its business, did it undertake contracts
with private third parties?
A I believe so, yes.
Q What kind of activities would these contracts
have been?
A Rental of equipment primarily, rental cars —
you know, those types of things.
Q Did BSI engage in contracts with third parties
for operational purposes?
A When you say BSI, I think you've got to look_
at^^^^^
430
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
aASSffl
60
MR. SABA: I have no further questions.
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
Q Let me offer as Deposition Exhibit 1 what I
believe to be the sworn statement that you provided Army
CID on DA form 2823 on 2 April 87.
(The document referred to was
marked Golden Exhibit Number 1
for identification.)
Does this look fauniliar to you, Mr. Golden?
A Yes, it does.
Q And that is your statement that you provided?
A Yes.
Q And that was a sworn statement that you gave
to the Army investigators?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And to the best of your knowledge all of the
information in there is correct?
A Yes, to the best of my recollection, yes.
MR. SAXON: Off the record.
(A discussion was held off the record.)
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
Q What can you tell us about why you didn't make
32!^
431
(jfi^lwviWtU /
61
1 any connection between any Swiss bank accounts which
2 you've talked about now with the earlier investigations?
3 A I think early on in 1983 I made reference in
4 sworn statements back and then and in conversations with
5 the investigators and with the U.S. Attorney to the
6 possibility of other bank accounts, and in fact I brought
7 this up a number of times. I made 70-something trips
8 back here as a part of that investigation to assist the
9 FBI and the Army in sorting through all of this mess.
10 I suspected a long time ago that there were
11 bank accounts established and I didn't know what the
12 purpose of those accounts were. I think the Army did try
13 to look at some of those at some point, but there was so
14 much overwhelming evidence against Colonel Duncan that it
15 was a chore just to catalog the information. There must
16 have been 15 safes full of material, and I was told at
17 one point that it was a fruitless effort because it was
18 just too time-consuming to bury that many agents in that
19 type of investigation when they really didn't need that
20 information to prosecute Colonel Duncan.
21 Q Is it correct, then, that the first evidence
22 you had that your name might have appeared as a signatory
23 on a Swiss bank account was when you got the call from
24 Mr. Rosenberg of CBS News? i
25 A Yes, that's correct. I
illtlSSWffl)
432
y
62
1 Q And the actual verification of what that
2 account number was came from Mr. Rosenberg?
3 A Yes, it did.
4 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: (Resuming)
5 Q You knew that there was a position paper
6 prepared that discussed diversion of funds to the
7 contras, did you not?
8 A No, I didn't know that — for diversion of
9 funds — no.
10 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
11 Q The position paper you saw dealt with padding
12 in terms of equipment and supplies, with that possibly
13 going to the contras?
14 A That's right. It didn't talk about giving
15 them money and laundering money or anything like that
16 that I can recall. The mechanism that was needed to fund
17 it, to buy things for them, would have to be set up.
18 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: (Resuming)
19 Q I think you said earlier you remembered that
2 it clearly was a method by which Boland could be —
21 A There was no question about it. I mean, that
22 was the whole purpose of the plan, was to circumvent the
23 Boland Amendment.
24 Q You remember when this story broke that led us
2 5 to this investigation. Did you not make the connection
BNCttSStftED
433
KAW4iO
63
1 then? Why didn't you contact someone?
2 A I suspected that was the case, but, I mean,
3 you know, the plan was In the BSI offices when it was
4 taken down, and I assumed that the Army had the plan and
5 they had access more than I did to the material that was
6 in BSI. I never saw the plan after I left there. But
7 when the investigation started they confiscated
8 everything in the office and It was either shredded or
9 they had the plan. I really didn't know.
10 BY MR. SABA: (Resuming)
11 Q To your knowledge, was the device of padding
12 contracts, whether with other countries or perhaps with
13 other third parties, previously used for any other
14 purposes?
15 A Z don't have any personal knowledge. I've
16 heard all kinds of stories and rumors about that type of
17 thing happening, but I don't have any direct knowledge of
18 it.
19 Q In your knowledge of the contractsi
20 ^^HI^^^Hentered into with third parties, were these
21 generally contracts contemplating profit?'
22 A Oh, yeah, they had to be. I mean, just the
2 3 nature of the business. I mean, it was a good ole boy
24 network.
2 5 Q To your knowledge was it understood that any
111
IlllSIHfB
434
ymiiSSiED
64
1 portion of such profit would go to a purpose directed by
2 the contracting agency?
3 A No. I didn't have any knowledge of that at
4 all.
5 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
6 Q When you spoke with Mr^^^^^^Bln either of
7 your two phone conversations did he ever verify whether
8 the account number, the account with the numbe]^^^^^H,
9 currently had any money In It? Was It an open account,
10 an active account? Did It have money?
11 A No. I never asked hla that. Z just told him
12 Z needed the records, was what I was after. The story I
13 told him was that these other people that were slgnators
14 to the account were In trouble with the law, and he acted
15 very surprised at that. And I said what I'm trying to do
16 Is protect myself. Z want to know what has gone on In
17 that account that Z might be subject to be questioned
18 about. I want to get copies of everything so I know
19 where I stand with the government.
20 Q So you didn't ask It. Did he volunteer
21 whether there was money In the account?
22 A No.
23 Q Did you ask whether you would be able at
24 present to make withdrawals or deposits into that
25 account?
ylitWP
435
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
itmsn
65
A No, I didn't ask.
Q Tell us, to the best of your understanding,
where things stand in terras of your getting something in
terms of these records from Credit Suisse.
A The last letter I wrote to Mr .^^^^^H was on
the 19th of April, and the letter basically stated!
that I wanted the information relative to the basic
account that had been established, and that I would
attempt to find out the other numbers that he said I
needed to get, the other information, but in the meantime
I wanted him to send me whatever he had that he could
give me.
Q So you are waiting now to receive that?
A Yes.
Q And consistent with what you had been told in
your conversations, you have eve^ reason to believe you
will get records?
A Yeah, I think so.
set up a post office box number and I have
TheckeTl-t every day up until yesterday.
BY MR. SABA: (Resuming)
Q Let me understand. You gave as a return
address a P.O. Box?
ICBSStflED
436
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
U¥^
■ ■> ■i" ih ■■■ '
66
A That's correct.
Q You did not glv* your hom« address?
A No, I did not.
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
BY MR. SABA: (Resuning)
Q For th« racord, in yoxir telephone calls to Mr.
|vhat telephone number did you use to reach him?
A The city code, I think, was^^H The number is
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
And that is in Geneva, Switzerland?
Yes. And the letter I wrote to Mr.
437
1 MR. SAXON: Mr. Golden, I think that's all we
2 have at this time.
3 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming)
4 Q One other thing, Mr. Golden. I believe you
5 have some copies of documentary evidence, some memoranda
6 for the record, which you prepared of various phone
7 conversations and correspondence involved. Is that
8 something you could make available to the Committees?
9 A Yes. I can make available the letters that I
10 wrote to Mr.^^^^^Hand I tape recorded the
11 conversations, the two conversations, where I placed the
12 calls to MrJ^^^^^Hand I do have that and I can
13 provide that to you.
14 MR. SAXON: On behalf of both Committees, we
15 want to thank you for being here and for your candor and
16 time. Thank you very much.
17 (Whereupon, at 12:44 p.m., the taking of the
18 instant deposition ceased.
19
20 Signature of the Witness
21 Subscribed and Sworn to before m« this day
22 of , 1987.
23
24 Notary Public
25 My Commission Expires: .
IfflCtSSSIFIED
438
CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER
I,
M i c h a 1 A . 3 c '.-. a f 9 r
, the officer before whom che
foregoing deposition vas taken, do hereby certify that the witness
whose testinony appears in the foregoing deposition was iaLy sworn
by ^^ ; that the testimony of said wicness was
taken by tne to the best of ay ability and thereafter reduced to typewriting
under ay direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony
given by said witness; that I aa neither counsel for, related to, nor
employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition
was taken, and further that I am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.
)MLc})aJJin)^fchCi
NOTARY PUBLIC
My Comm
ission expires: ^/-AS/^U
UNCLASSIFIED
439
ULLU otrormKi co . mc
107 c So««T. N E
VuiuofUfl. D C iwn?
CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER
I, Terry Barham, the officer before whom the
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was
taken by me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or
under my supervision; that said deposition transcript is a
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken;
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the
action .
Terry Bar|iamj^,i»€tary Public in
and for the District of Columbia
My commission expires May 15, 1989.
440
;bl
MILLER mromwa co . mc.
507 C Su«t. N E
Washin|ton. D C. 20002
(3021 \4f^Mi^
\ >^
SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT
ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATES
^ AND
SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION
UNITED STATES SENATE
Friday, September 11, 1987,
Washington, D.C.
Deposition of FRANCIS D. GOMEZ, taken on behalf of
the Select Conunittees above cited, pursuant to notice, com-
mencing at 10:15 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart Senate Office
Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public in and for the
District of Columbia, when were present:
For the Senate Select Committee:
JAMES E. KAPLAN, Esq.
For the House Select Committee:
Ho(;s
SPENCER OLIVER, Esq,
THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. ^.^^^^(^^1
KEN BUCK, Esq Partially Declaiafie<l/Re?eg6(1 ■-, ■ T" ».
under provision* of LOu IQTS
byJBBi National Sfifiudte
iiNmssffii
441
tb2
2-3
UNCLASSiFli
For the deponent:
RONALD G. PRECUP, Esq
Nussbaum, Owen, and Webster
One Thomas Circle
Washington, D.C. 20005
CONTENTS
MUfn HcrowTwa co.. MC.
507 C Siicn. N E
VuhuftiKi. O C 2O0C2
Examination by
Mr. Kaplan
Mr. Buck
Mr. Oliver
Gomez Deposition Exhibits
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
EXHIBITS
Page
4
124
128
Marked
4-
5
15
49
51
98
131
138
153
161
442
I
mc4
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
ynxER nE^onrriNa CO.. inc.
507 C Suect. N E 2 5
Wuhtngton. D C 10002
HNtUiSSm
PROCEEDINGS
Whereupon,
FRANCIS D. GOMEZ
was called as a witness and, after having been first duly-
sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE
SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Could you please state your full name for the
record?
A Francis D. Gomez.
Q Just some housekeeping formalities here. You
understand, Mr. Gomez, that this deposition is being taken
pursuant to subpoenas that were issued back in April. I've
got a letter here from your counsel which I aun glad to mark
as an exhibit to the deposition, which states that this sub-
poena issued by our Committee remains in force even though
your appearance was excused back in April. I will ask the
reporter to mark this letter Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 1.
(The document referred to was
marked Gomez Deposition Exhibit
No. 1 for identification.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Then I will ask the reporter to mark as Deposition
Exhibit 2 a composJ
IIHn'KfvlFlfIt
the order from the
443
mc5
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■Ujn HOOflTMO CO., MC
>07CSum. NE 25
Vuhinfton. D C. 20002
ONCUSSIflED
United States District Court for the District of Columbia of
immunity pursuant to application by the Senate Select
Committee, and an order issued by the same court pursuant to
an application for immunity by the House Select Committee,
which compels your testimony here today.
I will just state for the record that your testimony
here today is being compelled pursuant to both of these
orders. I will ask you if that's your understanding as to
your appearance here today.
A ^ Yes.
(The document referred to was
marked as Gomez Deposition
Exhibit No. 2 for identifica-
tion. )
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Could you state your Social Security number?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Q
A
What is your date of birth?
July 24, 1941.
Are you currently employed?
Yes.
What is your position or employment?
I'm president of my own consulting firm which is
called Public Affairs Resources, Inc.
How
i\m ft^^ifif rr
ed there?
444
mc6
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
IUU0I ncMimra co.. mc.
)07 C Sa«t. N E 25
Wuhui|<o<i. D C 20002
KIASSIFIEB
A Well, I changed the name of my previous company,
which was Gomez International, and the name change was
effective in August. So I have been employed by Gomez
International since early 1986.
Q Is that the same time when Gomez International was
formed? — ~^
A Yes.
Q What was the purpose of the name change?
A I wanted something that reflected more what I did.
Gomez International doesn't say what I do . I found a lot of
people asking, when I presented my card, well, what do you
do, and I had to explain that.
Q Is Gomez International a partner along with -- I'm
sorry, the newly named corporation?
A PAR.
Q That's Public Affairs Resources?
A Yes.
Q Is Public Affairs Resources, Inc. a partner along
with Miller Communications in the partnership of International
Business Communications?
A No.
When did that partnership cease?
July 31, formally.
July 31 of this year?
Q
A
Q
A
Yes.
Hill
445
mc7
■LL£P ncrOOTIMO CO
W7 C SoCTi. N E
Wulun{T0D. D C 20002
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UHCLASSIFI
Q Okay. What was the purpose of the cessation of
that partnership?
A The purpose was to do business on my own.
Q What is the nature of your business?
A I do public affairs consulting, trade and investment
promotion, public relations.
Q Where are your offices?
A 1912 Sunderland Place.
Q Do you share offices with International Business
Communications ?
A I rent offices from IBC.
Q In your immediate prior employment as a self-
employed individual at Gomez International, were the services
the same as you perform now with Public Affairs Resources?
A Basically, except that I'm more into a business
development mode, business promotion mode now.
Q Do you share profits with anyone as a sole pro-
prietor of Public Affairs Resources?
A No.
Q What was your employment prior to the formation of
Gomez International in January of 1986?
A I was a consultant, private consultant to IBC; a
subcontractor, in effect.
Q Were you performing services similar to those that
you performed as a sole proprietor of Gomez International and
446
mc8
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■u£* nromvta co.. wc
507 C ScTMt. N E 2 5
Wuhinron. D C 20002
Public Affairs Resources?
A . Yes.
How long had you held the position with IBC?
From February 1984 to January or February 1986.
Q
A
Q
A
What had you done prior to February of 1984 7
I as a foreign service information office with the
U.S. Information Agency.
Q How long had you held that position?
A There were various changes in the status or the
type of. title that we had, but I was with the USIA for 19
years and 10 months, something like that.
Q Had you performed a variety of different services
for USIA, or were your duties as public information officer
similar with increasing responsibility over time?
A They were, in a very broad sense, similar, but work
overseas is somewhat different from work in the United States.
Q Was the last portion of the tenure of your position
at USIA work in the United States?
A Yes; from 1978 to 1984.
Q what is the last position that you actually held
with USIA?
A Director of Foreign Press Centers.
Q How long did you hold that position?
A Almost two years.
Q What's your educational background?
■■M AI inoirarn
447
mc9
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
auLOt mroimta co . inc.
)0- C Sirra. N E 2 5
Wuhinitoa. DC 20002
(2021 ua.a^v;a
ONCUSSiFlEO
A I have a bachelor's degree from the University of
Washington in political science, a master's degree in public
administration from George Washington University, and not a
degree but I had a fellowship in international economics and
public affairs at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public
International Affairs in 1973-74.
Q When did you attain your degree at the University
of Washington?
A 1964.
Q ■ When did you attain your master's degree at George
Washington?
A '82.
Q Were you attending school at George Washington in
the evenings?
A Yes.
Q Part-time?
A For four years .
Q For a master's degree for four years?
A Yes, one at a time.
Q When did you first meet Rich Miller?
A I went to work as Deputy Assistant Secretary of
State for Public Affairs in, I guess, July 1980. At that
time he was not yet at the State Department or AID, but after
the election he came to AID as Director of Public Affairs.
We met shortly thereafter, which must have been early 1981.
448
mclO
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLER RCPORTINa CO., INC.
507 C Sum. N E 25
Waj.'unjtoo. C : 20002
12021 V46-666<
UNCLASSIREI
10
I can't pinpoint the date.
We met each other in the context of meetings on
public affairs strategies for the department and AID.
Q Did you discuss with Mr. Miller the substance of
his deposition testimony before these Committees before your
' coming here this morning?
A No.
Q Have you discussed with David Fischer the substance
of his deposition testimony before these Committees before
you came here?
A No.
Q Have you discussed with anyone the substance of
their private deposition testimony before these Committees
before having come here to testify today?
A No.
Q With any witness?
A No.
Q Do you now hold a security clearance?
A No. Not to my knowledge. Frankly, I don't know
what happened at the end of the Defense Department, whatever
they did, for the State Department contract. I don't know
how that turned out.
Q So I take it, then, in the past you did hold some
security clearances?
A Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
449
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■UJH MCPOXTWO CO.. MC.
)0; C ium N E 25
WuhiHgTon. D C 20002
UNCUSSIFlffl
11
Q Did you hold security clearances while you were
with USIA in the State Department?
A Yes. It's required.
Q Do you recall what level of clearance you held
during your time there?
A I believe it was top secret.
Q Did you continue to hold a security clearance for
some time after your government service terminated in January
of 1984?
A . Yes.
Q How long did you hold that clearance?
A I don't know exactly when it expired or when it was
to expire, but I remember checking on it when I left USIA to
see how long it would be in effect. I understood it was
going to be a year-and-a-half or two years more, something
like that.
Q Do you know why that clearance remained in effect?
A They clear people for, as I understand it, periods
of years, and my most recent update had been done a couple of
years before.
Q Were you still privy to the classified information
during your time outside of the government or beyond your
government service?
A I understand that I was as a contractor to the
State Department, yes.
lINCLAJsSIFIFn
450
incl2
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■tLuit nrormta co.. wc.
507 C Sircn. N E 2 5
Wuhufioii. O C 20002
nf\7\ MA.IWAA
iiNcmnED
12
Q Was your security clearance maintained at the
request of someone within the government, to your knowledge?
A No, only that when I went to the State Department
as a contractor or subcontractor, I inquired about the
validity or status of the security clearance and was told
that I did not have to do anything further to extend or
update my security clearance.
Q Who gave you that information?
A I don't recall. It was in the administrative
process there. It may have been a call that I initiated
myself to the USIA security office to inquire about it.
Q What prompted your request to determine whether
your security clearance remained in force?
A The expectation that I would be seeing classified
documents .
Q Is it fair to say that expectation was the result
of the fact that you were a contractor for a State Department
contract that was classified as secret?
A No, because all this happened prior to the classifi-
cation of that contract. The period I'm talking about was
February, March '84.
MR. PRECUP: Mr. Kaplan, for the record, by "that
contract," I think the witness is referring to the State
Department contract covering fiscal year 1986. Is that what
you had in mind in your question as well?
mini Aoninrn
451
mcl3
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mufn nroicrna co.. mc.
)07 C Scittt. N E 2 5
Xuhmfton. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
13
MR. KAPLAN: That is what I had in mind. I
understand that there are a series of State Department
contracts that Mr. Gomez and International Business Communi-
cations held when Mr. Gomez was a principal at IBC. We'll
get into those contracts a little later and with a bit more
depth. But that was the contract that I was referring to by
my shorthand. I appreciate the clarification for the record.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Mr. Gomez, have you ever been an employee or a
contract agent of any intelligence agency or intelligence
branch of any department or agency?
A No.
Q Do you recall when a corporation named IC, Inc. was
incorporated in the Cayman Islands?
A Yes.
Q Were you an incorporator of that corporation?
A Yes.
Q How did you become involved in incorporating IC,
Inc.?
A I believe the period was spring of 1985 at a time
when Mr. Miller and I were dealing with a person who was
presented to us as a Saudi prince — and I don't remember his
name -- and who was interested in selling oil and providing
the profits from the sale of oil, or at least some of the
profits from the sale of oil, to assist the administration
452
mcl4
UNCLASSIFIED
14
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■ami Noomm co.. mc.
)07 C Screw. N E 25
Wuhmfim. C 2000!
and assist the resistance movement in Nicaragua.
And after some checking, Mr. Miller decided that he
should, we should, open an offshore account in order to
provide for ready transfer of those moneys, and also to avoid
any immediate tax liability for moneys entering the United
States. We were expecting to deal with large sums and
anticipated that any large sum coming in would be immediately
taxable regardless of its ultimate disposition.
Q Was the decision to form IC, Inc. and the reasons
for choosing the Cayman Islands as the place of formation a
decision that you were involved with?
A No. I was asked to lend my name and my signature
to those steps.
Q Did you discuss the formation of IC, Inc. with
Colonel North?
A No.
Q Did you do or take any action other than lend your
name to the formalization of the steps?
A No.
Q By steps, I'm referring to the steps to actually
register IC, Inc. and establish some bank accounts.
A Other than lending my name, no. I —
Q I'm going to ask you -- go ahead.
A No, just Mr. Miller explained to me what he was
recommending that we do. That's the extent of my knowledge
iiiim ncoinun
453
mcl5
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■LLin nrotmxa co.. mc.
W? C Suttt. N E 2 5
Vuhmfum D C 20002
15
of it.
UNCLASSIFIEI
Q Did you do any research into the mechanisms for
establishing a corporation and related bank accounts in the
Cayman Islands?
A No. I believe Mr. Miller did.
MR. KAPLAN: I will ask the reporter to mark as
Deposition Exhibit No. 3a copy of a document that was
produced to us by your counsel in response to subpoenas
issued by the Committees.
(The document referred to was
marked as Gomez Deposition
Exhibit No. 3 for identifica-
tion. )
BY MR. KAPU'J^:
Q I ask you if you can identify that document.
A Well, the names are familiar: the Barclays Bank,
the Cayhaven Corporate Services, and Walker and Company. But
I don't know where the document came from.
Q Did you prepare this document?
A I don't think so.
Q Is it possible that you prepared this document?
A It's possible.
Q Does this document refresh your recollection as to
whether you took any steps to determine the various mechanisms
by which a Cayman Islands corporation and related bank
llllAi An'r^<^?^l^
454
mcl6
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hiufn ntronrma CO.. inc.
)07 C Smn. N E 2 5
Wuhmiion. o c. :ooo:
F
16
accounts could be established?
A I may have had a phone call or received a phone
call from one of the persons or more listed here. I remember
a phone call and taking notes from the phone call, but I
believe I was doing that on behalf of Mr. Miller.
Q Is it part of your business practice to have notes
from telephone calls incorporated into typewritten documents?
A Normally, no.
Q I take it it's possible that you had notes from
phone conversations .
A It's possible. I don't have any clear recollection
of this document, especially underlining the management
company does not look something like what I would do, nor
underlining the law firm is something that I would do, nor
even the format of the memo is not my style.
Q Is it possible that you had a telephone conversation
with someone about these approaches or mechanisms and gave
your notes to someone else who then incorporated it into an
information sheet?
A That's possible.
Q Do you recall a time in 1986 when the name of IC,
Inc. was changed to Intel Cooperation, Inc. and the charter
of IC, Inc. was also modified?
A Yes.
Q Could you describe what your involvement, if any,
455
mcl7
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■uzN ntKxrrma Co.. mc.
507 C SciCTt N E 25
TutuniTOD. D C 10002
•■"171 V46-6«6«
«(itliSS!l-18
17
was in that name and charter change?
A My involvement was that I was informed of the
change or the need to change, the desire to -hange, and was
asked to sign, again, the appropriate papers.
Q Did you have any involvement in the preparation of
the papers instituting that name and charter change?
A Other than lending my signature to a document, I
had no involvement.
Q Who informed you of the name and charter change?
A • Mr. Miller.
Q Did he tell you why the name and charter change was
recommended or desired?
A He did but I don't recall the reason.
Q Did he tell you that the charter change was being
made in order to provide more secrecy to the function that
IC, Inc. was performing at that time?
A I don't think so. I wish I could give you a
precise answer, but I do not recall.
Q Do you recall whether he told you that the charter
change was being made in an effort to more accurately reflect
the business of IC, Inc. at that time?
A I believe something to that effect was discussed.
Frankly, I was not greatly concerned about it.
Q Did you review the charter change prior to having
signed the document that made it?
mini AOOirir'^
456
mcl8
1
2
3
4
^ 5
6
7
8
9
10
n
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
) CO.. MC.
J07 C Siren. N E 2 5
Wuhioflon. D.C. 20002
OiUSSlFIEI
18
A I don't remember.
Q Was it your practice, Mr. Gomez, to sign documents
relating to IC, Inc. without a thorough review of the
substance of those documents?
A Well, it was my practice, yes, to sign almost
anything that Mr. Miller put in front of me, unfortunately.
Usually, he explained what was happening and why and asked
for my signature.
Q Going back to the formation of IC, Inc., did Mr.
Miller tell you whether he had had any conversations with
Colonel North about the formation of that company?
A Yes, I believe he did.
Q Can you describe the substance of your conversations
with Mr. Miller of his conversations with Colonel North?
A Yes; very briefly, however.
I believe that they had discussions on the ad-
visability of creating or opening a corporation, creating a
corporation and establishing a bank account overseas. And
that was about it.
Q Did Mr. Miller ever tell you that Colonel North had
instructed him to open an offshore account and corporation?
A I don't think I could say accurately that this
would be characterized as an instruction. It may have been a
request.
Q Do you recall whether Mr. Miller told you that
iiimi Aoririrn
457
mcl9
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
• 12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hunt HIKMtTHa CO.. MC.
507 C Sirm, N E 2 5
Vuhinfua. C 20002
(.-•TV
19
North had requested him to establish an offshore corporation
and account?
A No. I believe that the initiative for that came
from the --oh, I just remembered the name of the fake Saudi
prince: Al-Massoudi.
I believe that that was in that context that he
reached the decision to do that, and whether at that time Mr.
North was also involved and making recommendations, I cannot
be certain about.
Q Did you have any further dealings with Al-Massoudi
after these initial contacts?
A No.
Q Were the Al-Massoudi transactions and dealings
conducted solely by Mr. Miller insofar as IBC was concerned?
A That's correct, although I did see him a couple of
times later when he C£une in the office.
Q Do you recall why the fake Saudi prince said that
he wanted to give money to the contras from the sale of these
oil contracts?
A Yes.
Q What was the reason that he told you?
A Well, he said that he had lived in the United
States, and his son was living in the United States and was
grateful for everything that the United States had done for
him and for his son and his family and so on. And he wanted
458
mc20
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HIUUI REKM«Twa CO.. INC.
507 C SlTCTl. N E 25
Vuhincton. DC :00C2
mil V«&.6«M
20
to repay the country in some way, and he was also concerned
about the spread of Conununism and felt that a contribution to
aid the Nicaraguan resistance would be a way to express that
concern.
Q When did you first meet Colonel North?
A I believe that I met him at a swearing-in in the
Indian Treaty Room in the Old Executive Office Building in
about August of 1984.
Q Whose swearing-in was it?
A It was Tambs who was en route to Costa Rica.
Wait a minute. I'm sorry. It was Ambassador
Piedra, Alberto Piedra, who was en route to Guatemala.
Q Who introduced you to Colonel North?
A At this swearing-in there were several people from
the Office of Public Diplomacy at the State Department,
including Ambassador Reich, John Blacken, and maybe others.
In just meeting and greeting, it was in that context that I
first shook hands with Mr. North.
Q Do you recall when your first substantive encounter
with Mr. North occurred?
A It could have been a few weeks after that. Perhaps
September.
Q Do you recall the substance of that occurrence or
of that meeting?
A As I recall it, either Mr. North, Colonel North,
459
nic2 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLUH ntroKvua co.. mc
M7 C Sirtn. N E 2 5
Waihmina. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
21
asked to see me or I was asked by someone at the Office of
Public Diplomacy to contact him in order to discuss public
affairs programs of the office.
Q Did you have subsequent dealings with North on that
matter immediately after that meeting?
A Several days after, but I can't pinpoint it. After
that we started seeing each other -- I don't know -- once
every two weeks or so, we would confer.
Q What were the purposes of those conferences, to the
best of your recollection?
A Coordination of programs, strategies for the public
diplomacy effort at State Department and their relationship '
to the resistance leadership.
Q So I take it these were public diplomacy efforts
related to the resistance?
A Correct.
Q Were these activities conducted under the auspices
of your State Department contracts?
A Yes.
Q That you held at the time?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Was there a time when you and others at IBC
began to refer to Colonel North by the name "Green"?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall when use of the name "Green" began?
460
mc2 2
22
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLEM REPOOTINO CO , INC.
507 C Su«I. N E 2 ^
Washmfioii. C 20002
A Probably in the summer or fall of 1985.
Q Did you initiate the use of the name "Green"? Was
it your idea?
A Yes .
Q Do you recall why you initiated it?
A Yes, I recall very specifically a conversation with
Mr. Conrad, Dan Conrad in Mr. Channell's office, because he
was speaking rather loosely about Colonel North, Colonel
North, Colonel North. And I said, "Well, I don't think it's
advisable to refer to Colonel North publicly, openly, " as
Colonel North because by this time there had been some press
articles about his involvement with the Nicaraguan resistance.
And I said, "You should probably call him something else."
He said, "Well, what do we call him?" I said, "Well, call
him Green or something." I don't know. I thought Marine,
Marine uniform, green, and that was it.
Q Can you just explain briefly, again, why you
thought it was inadvisable to continue to use North's real
neune in conversations with Mr. Conrad and others at the
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty?
A Because the work that he was doing and the work
that Channell and his group were doing was very sensitive,
and that revelation of it would be embarrassing to all
parties .
Q By the work that th$v we^^a^doing, I take it that
461
mc2 3
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
H
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
lULLOl mH WIWO CO.. MC.
107 C Sdtti N E 2 5
VtlhiofUm. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
23
you're referring to the contra assistance funding network
that had been established by that time?
A Correct.
Q Were you concerned about the legality of Colonel
North's activities or anyone else's activities in connection
with that contra assistance network?
A No.
Q Were you concerned about the propriety, separate
and apart from legality, of the contra assistance network
that was being conducted by that time?
A No . I think I was concerned primarily about the
political implications of it, the embarrassment of a dis-
closure and so on.
Q Were you concerned about the political implications,
embarrassment and public disclosure insofar as Colonel North
was concerned?
A Insofar as everyone was concerned.
Q Were you concerned that the public revelation of
the contra assistance network would be a problem for IBC?
A Yes.
Q What problem did you foresee that public disclosure
of that funding network would cause IBC?
A Well, it was a sensitive political issue, one that
had prompted considerable debate in public, in the media, in
the Congress, and I think that public knowledge of our
462
mc24
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■it.L£n KEPoimNa co.. inc.
107 C Scifti. N E 25
VuhmitoD. D C. 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
24
association with such an enterprise could be harmful to the
business .
Q When you say harmful to the business, do you mean
that IBC would lose business over the disclosure --
A Potentially, yes.
Q -- of its operation in controversial activities?
A Yes.
If I may, I'd like to go back to our initial. Rich
Miller's and my initial association. When I decided to
become his consultant — in effect, share offices and work
with and for him — we felt that it would be a good match, a
good team because he was a Republican and I was from the
Democratic side, had a lot of friends in the Democratic
Party, had done some work for the Democratic Party. And I
was also later, when we're talking about this period, I felt
that my personal involvement or attachment to such a cause
could be harmful to me in a business and a political sense
for being so closely identified with that cause.
Q Did you ever express to Miller reservations about
IBC's participation in the contra assistance funding network?
A Yes. Many times.
Q Do you recall at least when some of those reserva-
tions were expressed?
A I don't recall dates. I recall periods. That is,
fairly early on after the Channell relationship was es-
463
mc25
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hij.£n rcpohtino CO., mc.
w c Succi s E 2 5
VuhmiToa D C 20002
(2021 M6-64M
25
'?rf^
tablished in the spring of 1985, s'hwrMy thereafter when they
started getting into the fund-raising mode, I had some
reservations about that and expressed them to Mr. Miller.
Q What reservations did you express, to be more
precise?
A Well, I wanted to be very certain, first of all,
that what we were doing was not illegal, and he assured me
that it was not. He had checked with various parties, I
believe legal counsel as well, and assured me that it was not.
Also at the time, it was our understanding that
whatever moneys were being raised were going for humanitarian
purposes rather than non-lethal purposes.
MR. PRECUP: Rather than?
THE WITNESS: Rather than lethal. I'm sorry. A
slip. Rather than lethal purposes. And so that was somewhat
reassuring to me.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q But I take it Mr. Miller assured you that the
contra assistance funding network had been passed on as
lawful by some counsel?
A I had that impression, yes.
Q Did you ask him which lawyers he had consulted?
A No.
Q What else did Mr. Miller tell you on occasions when
you expressed your reservations about IBC's participation in
rimiMitn
464
mc26
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
iMLLiii nvomsM CO . wc.
»7 C Sum. N E 2 5
Vuhin(Toa D C lAooi
26
the contra assistance network?
A Well, he made the case for the plight of the
resistance, first of all, saying that they were not getting
assistance, they were caught in an extremely precarious
situation where their needs were considerable; that Mr.
North, Colonel North, had asked for our cooperation. Of
course, I had been in the room, in his office, when such
cooperation was requested, so that was not a secret. And
also that whatever we were doing could be kept from public
view. And I was persuaded to continue.
Q Didn't you ask for assurances that the contra
assistance network could be kept from public view?
A No.
Q Were you persuaded that the contra assistance
network could be kept from public view?
A No.
Q But you just decided to continue to take the
business and professional risk?
A Yes.
Q When did you first meet John Roberts?
A I don ' t remember .
Q Was it several years ago?
A No. It was in 19... if I met him. I'm very vague
about ever having met him. I believe I met him once, perhaps
after he left the White House. But we had telephone conversa
_l
465
mc2 7
507 C SOCTT. N E
WuhiDfTon. D C
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
CO.. WK.
25
KUSSIFIED
27
tions prior to that time.
Q What was the purpose of those telephone conversa-
tions?
A Mr. Channell was seeking to get a letter, I believe
it was a letter, from the President which would endorse his
fund-raising efforts.
Q Who initiated the calls between you and Mr. Roberts?
A Well, Mr. Miller had had conversations with Mr.
Roberts on behalf of Mr. Channell, or Mr. Channell had had
conversations with Mr. Roberts, and I did this when the other
two gentlemen were either not available or something. I was
pinch-hitting.
Q I take it this would have been some time after the
contra assistance network between NEPL and IBC began?
A I believe it was in the summer, August of 1985,
when we had our telephone conversations; and when we met, I
don't know. If we did meet, it was very brief and almost
social rather than professional.
Q When did you first meet Channell and Conrad?
A I believe it was in March or April of 1985, about
the time of the Nicaraguan refugee dinner.
Q Did you work with Channell and Conrad in connection
with the planning for that dinner?
A I didn't, no.
Q Outside of any transactions or dealings having to
iiMoi Accincn
466
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
lUXR nrOMTMO CO., mc.
07 C Strm. N E 2 5
euhwpott. D C 20002
IINCUSSIFIED
28
do with the Nicaraguan refugee dinner, do you recall when you
first meet Channell and Conrad in a business context?
A Yes. Mr. Miller, and perhaps indirectly I, did
some things for them in connection with the Nicaraguan
refugee dinner. Whether it was just provision of information
or background or something on Nicaragua, they were beginning
to get into this as a possible fund-raising vehicle. And I
don't recall exactly what services were performed. It may
have just been outlining the issues for them or something. I
am reall,y very vague on that.
But shortly thereafter, after the fund-raising
dinner, Mr. Channell appeared, perhaps accompanied by Mr.
Conrad, and gave a check to Mr. Miller for services rendered.
And I can't be certain that that check was for support for
the refugee dinner or something else, but that was the
beginning of the relationship. And at that time, he offered
to provide a monthly retainer.
Q Does it refresh your recollection at all with
respect to the timing of that first — I'll refer to it as a
retainer meeting if I tell you that the refugee fund dinner
occurred on April 15 of 19857
A I don't know what you're trying to get me to recall.
Q Is it possible that that so-called retainer meeting
occurred before the refugee fund dinner?
A
It's possible.
467
mc29
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UiULJB> MPOXTINO CO.. INC.
107 C Sutci, N E 2d
IFuhmtton. D C 20002
(202) MlS-6««
iClHSSiru
29
Q Would it refresh your recollection as to when that
retainer meeting occurred if I told you that records received
by the Committee from your counsel and others indicate that
you participated in a dinner with Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad,
Mr. Ramsey and Mr. Miller some time prior to the date of that
refugee fund dinner.
A Yes.
Q Given your indication that your recollection has
been refreshed somewhat by my recitation of those events,
when do you now recall that that first retainer meeting with
Channell and Conrad occurred?
A Now I'm confused, because I sense that the calendar,
the period is changed. It could have been earlier — it must
have been earlier, in February, perhaps. It was in the
wintertime because I remember people wearing coats.
Q So I take it it could have been some time in
February, some time in March or some time in early April
prior to the refugee fund dinner?
A Some time in early 1985.
Q Okay. Do you know whether Channell and Conrad were
first referred to IBC by John Roberts?
A I learned that much later.
Q When did you learn that?
A Oh, maybe some time in 1986.
Q Do you recall the context in which you learned that
IIMPI AQQIflPn
468
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mixnt NcroimNa co.. mc.
)07 C Screw, NE 2 5
VuhiDlioa. DC 20002
'202) Ui-it6i
HEUSSM
30
Roberts had referred Channell and Conrad to you and Mr.
Miller?
A It was just a conversation with somebody -- and I
don't remember with whom — about how Conrad and Channell had
a relationship with the White House, which predated their
relationship with IBC.
Q Now, the Committees have received information in
making that referral that Roberts referred to IBC as something
like a White House outside of the White House, or a front for
the White House on the Nicaraguan issue. Is that a charac-
terization that you've heard before?
A I've heard it. It's not what we ever used or
described our operation as, but I've heard other people say
that they have used that term.
Q In what context have other people said that —
A Only in the context of the Nicaraguan relationship.
Q Is it to your mind an accurate characterization of
the work that IBC was doing at the time?
A Not of all the work that IBC was doing as far as
the Nicaraguan resistance policy to aid them. It was not a
White House outside the White House. It was an entity which
was assisting in the administration's efforts, but I certainly
wouldn't characterize it as that.
Q Are you aware of any reason why Roberts or these
other people who you say have referred to IBC as a front for
IIMM R^J^iFlPn
469
mc31
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■uin nepoffTiHG CO . mc.
)o- c Sotci. N E 25
Wunaafton. D C 20002
C ;) 546-«66
sm^ssiflB
31
the White House, or possibly a front for the State Department,
as to why they would characterize IBC this way?
A My answer would be sheerly speculative. I don't
know.
Q Who set up the dinner to which we've referred
earlier in early April 1985 with Mr. Ramsey?
A I don't remember what the date of the dinner was.
Mr. Chahnell set it up as far as I know.
Q Did Channell tell you anything about Ramsey prior
to the dinner?
A Yes.
Q What did he tell you?
A That he was a wealthy Texas, where he was from -- I
think Wichita Falls, Texas — that he was related somehow to
the oil business. Not much more than that. A conservative,
very interested in what was happening in Central America, a
prospective donor.
Q What did you understand the purpose of the dinner
to be?
A Dinner was for us — well, in a few words, it was
to get us a contribution from Mr. Ramsey.
Q A contribution for whom?
A For Mr. Channell 's organization or organizations.
Q Was the contribution to Channell 's organization
going to be a contribution that would be passed on to the
470
KiSSfliS
32
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■•.LED RcroKTma CO.. MC.
SOCSuttt. NE 2 5
» ihmtioo. D C J0002
r 2) M«-66M
resistance?
A That's what I understood.
Q Are you aware that the discussion at the dinner
that evening was tape recorded?
A Yes.
Q When did you become aware that the tape recording
existed?
A At the time.
Q At the time. How did you become aware that the
tape recording was taking place?
A Well, Mr. Conrad had a habit of recording things.
He was very business-like and wanted to be very precise about
everything, and so he often had a tape recorder with him. And
he put it on the table and said -- didn't say, he just
started recording.
Q Did anyone raise a question about the propriety of
recording the dinner conversation that evening?
A I think I did.
Q Did you raise it at the time that Conrad put the
tape recorder on the table?
A I think I did.
Q What do you recall his response to be?
A I don't recall his response. Not in detail. He
tape the conversation, so, therefore, he probably said
something to the effect that, well, it's all right, I'll keep
471
mc33
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MIL -ji wrofrnNQ co . mc.
V ; Strett. N E 2 5
^ luifUHi. D C 20002
33
it, and this sort of thing.
Q Do you recall having reviewed the transcript of
that tape recording?
A Yes .
Q When was that?
A A week or a couple of weeks thereafter.
Q Do you recall having made some changes in the
transcript?
A I remember editing it somehow, and then sending it
back or giving it back or something.
Q What was the purpose of your editing?
A I don't recall whether it was a combination of
style or sensitivity about its contents or factual, making
sure that there were factual statements there. It could have
been a combination of all three.
Q Have you had occasion to review that transcript at
some subsequent time?
A I've never seen it again.
Q Do you recall whether Ramsey was shown some
photographs at the dinner?
A Yes.
Q Who showed him photographs?
A Mr. Miller and myself, maybe Mr. Channell, too.
Q What were they photographs of?
A The resistance.
uMoi ftccipcn
472
UNCUSSIFIED
34
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
.■a m um iwn co.. mc.
C Smtt. N E 25
•jhuifioo. DC. 20002
Q Were they photographs or slides?
A Photographs .
Q What was the purpose of showing resistance photo-
graphs?
A To depict the condition under which the resistance
was living and operating, their need for supplies, equipment.
Q Where did you obtain the photographs?
A Some I took myself on a visit to the ceunps in
February 1985. A camp, not the camps. One camp. I visited
refugee camps also on that visit. In fact, some of the
pictures I took in refugee c£unps . And there may have been
others -- but I don't think — that could have been provided
by Colonel North.
X don't recall whether they were all mine or there
were others there.
Q Did you at some time in the spring of 1985 assist
Channell in obtaining a letter from Adolfo Calero authorizing
Channell to do fund-raising for the FDN?
A I knew about a request from Channell for such a
letter from Mr. Calero, but I believe that that was handled
by Mr. Miller.
Q Do you recall ever having seen the letter?
A I may have.
Q Did you have any involvement in obtaining the
letter for Channell?
iiMniiSSiFiffl
473
mc3 5
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
oi mx jmwQ CO.. mc.
;S(t«n. N.E 25
.nrui. DC. 20002
HHWS»B
35
A Only in a sense that I knew a letter was being
requested, and I may have been involved in a phone call or
saying, "Where's the letter? What's the status of the
letter? Do you have the draft" or whatever it was. But I
just --
Q Do you recall why Channell requested the letter?
A Only that it was — I don't recall specifically,
no; that it was useful for his fund-raising purposes.
Q Is it fair to say, then, that your understanding
was that Channell wanted the letter to assist his fund-
raising for the resistance?
A Yes. I believe that he wanted to be able to show
it to prospective donors, and thereby suggest an appreciation
that the moneys that were being contributed were going to
their intended purpose, and that he had a close relationship
with Mr. Calero, and that anyone who contributed would be
assured of helping the cause.
Q Do you know whether IBC received any fee from any
organization or entity in connection with that authorization
letter?
A No.
Q You don ' t know?
A I know of no such fee for such a letter.
Q Did there come a time, Mr. Gomez, when NEPL -- and
I'll use that as the short
iiMnTK1«^rttnT
g to the National
474
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HlUXn REPOtmNQ CO.. MC.
507 C ScittT, N E 2 5
VuhmgToQ. D C 20002
36
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty -- began to give
money to IBC that was intended to be provided for assistance
to the Nicaraguan resistance?
A Was there a time when NEPL began to provide money
to IBC?
Q Right.
A Yes.
Q All right. Do you recall when you first became
aware of the fact that the money that NEPL was giving to IBC
was to be used for the resistance?
MR. PRECUP: Would you repeat that?
THE WITNESS: Are you asking when?
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q I'm just trying to establish a foundation for the
record as to when you first became aware that NEPL and IBC
and IC, Inc. were part of a contra assistance funding network.
A Well, I didn't know about the rest of the so-called
network, first of all. All I knew about from firsthand
observation was the provision of contributions to Channell,
Channell's providing those or parts thereof to IBC and IBC's
transfer of those to IC, Inc., and instructions from IBC to
IC, Inc. to disburse them. And when I learned of those
transfers, I can't pinpoint; some time in mid to fall of 1985.
Q You mentioned a bit earlier today, I believe, that
you were with North and Miller when^North asked Miller for
475
mc3 7
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MLLin ntKxnma co.. mc.
507 C Sum. S E 25
Wuhmfion. D C 20OO2
37
IBC's cooperation in this contra assistance network.
A He asked for our cooperation in assisting with the
administration's policy.
Q Did you understand the cooperation that IBC was
going to provide to be cooperation in the form of funneling
funds to the contras?
A At a later point, yes.
Q when was the initial meeting that you described at
which North asked for your cooperation in the administration's
efforts .in Nicaragua?
A Oh, that was early fall of 1984.
Q Early fall of 1984.
A Yes, when I first started dealing with him on a
regular basis.
Q So I take it that at that time you understood that
the cooperation he was asking was cooperation in connection
with your activities under the State Department contracts
then existing at the time?
A Correct, and beyond the State Department contracts.
That is, doing things that necessarily were not covered by
the State Department contract, like just the extra effort
that it would take.
Q What kinds of extra effort or activities did you
understand North to contemplate, and did you eventually
perform with respect to his request for cooperation?
476
mc38
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
lULxut Ncrommo co.. mc.
507 C Sunt. N E 25
Wuhm|ion. D C :0002
38
A Well, sometimes rather than requests coming from
the State Department to write something or to arrange a
meeting or something, he would ask us to do it directly. And
it's that kind of cooperation that I was referring to.
Q Did you perform those services under the auspices
of your State Department contracts, or did you perform those
services pro bono for North?
A It was pretty much pro bono sometimes. I can
relate one specific instance where he said that he wanted to
have some stickers or flyers printed for later distribution
inside Nicaragua, and our reaction was, well, we don't do
that. We never talked about it again. He asked us to do it,
and we agreed that, well, we'll look at it or something to
that effect.
Q Okay. All right.
A But that's the kind of thing, a request that he
might make of us.
Q Do you recall the circumstances under which you
first became aware that NEPL and IBC were engaged in a contra
assistance network?
A I don't remember the exact circumstances or the
date, but I can conclude that it had to be before the John
Ramsey meeting.
Q Where do you place the John Ramsey meeting?
A Where do I place iXZ.
1
nymfqiFlFP.
477
mc39
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Htxcn mroRTMa co.. mc.
107 C Strcci. N E 2 5
Wuhingion. C- 20002
\mmm
39
Q
A
Q
A
■84,
Right .
In time?
Time-wise .
Early '86 — no, sorry. Early '85 or maybe late
I really can't be certain.
Q Who told you about this funneling of funds that was
either going on or about to go on among NEPL, IBC and IC,
Inc. ?
A Mr. Miller.
Q . Do you recall what he told you?
A Well, he explained what the relationship was and
how it was to work; that is, that Channell would be obtaining
contributions; that they would be sent to us and we would
send them to IC, Inc. for disbursement.
Q How, to your knowledge, did IBC segregate payments
relating to contra assistance from NEPL from payments for
fees for services and expenditures from NEPL?
A I don't know. I was not involved in administrative
matters .
Do you understand what I'm getting at?
Q
A
Q
A
Q
No.
You should state yes or no simply for the record.
I said no.
Okay. During this period of contra assistance,- I
understand from your testimony and that of others NEPL also
478
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HUXK Ktromma co.. me
)07 C SuKt. N E 2 5
Vuhiiifton. O C- 20002
1U
40
had a relationship with IBC in which it paid IBC a retainer
for services and expenditures made on NEPL's behalf that
didn't necessarily relate to contra assistance or the contra
funding network.
A Correct.
Q I'm sorry. I probably haven't been terribly clear.
But what I'm trying to get at is whether you're aware of how
IBC segregated the payments from NEPL relating to contra
assistance from those NEPL payments that related to retainer
or other payments for services and expenditures made by IBC
on NEPL's behalf.
A Well, I know that they were segregated, that we
received a monthly retainer from Channell organizations, and
that we were reimbursed for some expenses from Channell.
I believe that the contributions to the resistance
cause were handled entirely separately from any retainer
matter or retainer-related matter.
Q Do you know who determined the timing and eunount of
payments from NEPL to IBC for contra assistance?
A I assume Mr. Channell did.
Q Do you know or that's just an assumption that you
made based on circumstances over time?
A It's based on circumstances over time. When he had
money, he made it available. That's my impression.
Q Do you know whether Colonel North ever made a
479
mc4 1
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mun mroKVHo co.. mc.
507 C Sticn. N E 2 5
Wuhiofioo. D C 20002
\l«tm«8
41
request of Channell or of someone at IBC for certain contra
assistance payments?
A Yes.
Q Did he make such requests or give such instruction?
A I would characterize his communications as requests
that he passed on to Mr. Miller or sometimes directly to Mr.
Channell .
Q How did you become aware of North's request for
contra assistance payments?
A Through Mr. Miller.
Q Do you recall any specific incidents of North
requests for contra assistance payments?
A Yes. One in his office, and again, I am vague on
the timing. But he seemed extremely frantic at the time,
nervous, and he said that he had to pay -- he needed some
money in order to pay an airplane dealer or supplier some-
where. I had the impression it was on the West Coast. And I
don't remember the amount of money, but it was considerable,
perhaps — this is a guess -- three or four hundred thousand
dollars .
Q Did North speak to you?
A Mr. Miller and I were both in his office when this
was relayed to us.
Q Do you recall the purpose of your meting with North
in his office at that time? ll/'-{i''i rtC^'O^i Ij'f^
480
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HUfll MVORTINO CO., MC
)07 C SuctI, N E 25
Walhinitoo. DC 20002
WfUSt®
42
A No. General discussion of the status of the
resistance, where are they going, what kind of programs are
they involved in, what are their needs and so on.
Q Do you recall when that meeting took place?
A It had to be in 1986. It seems like it might have
been in the earlier half of '86, perhaps the spring.
Q Was anyone else in North's office with you at the
time of that meeting and that request?
A I don't believe so.
MR. PRECUP: Other than Mr. Miller.
THE WITNESS: Other than Mr. Miller, yes.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Were there any other instances in which you can
recall that Mr. North conveyed a request for contra assistance
money to either Miller or Channell or to yourself?
A I remember other instances of which requests had
come from Mr. North, either to Mr. Miller or to Mr. Channell
directly because they spoke directly with each other some-
times. And I learned about that through Mr. Miller. But I
can't identify any specific need or amount or time, only that
most of it was in the period from spring to summer of '86.
Q To your knowledge, what —
A Maybe winter to the summer is better.
Q
A
Of 1986.
1986.
«NClASSiFB
481
mc4 3
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
^Priy'*''^^ 2
20
1
22
23
24
■tixoi RtroimNO co.. mc
50- CSerert. NE '5
Tulunitan. O C 20002
S0^
43
Q To your knowledge, who other than you and Mr.
Miller at IBC was involved with the contra funding network?
A Who else at IBC?
Q Yes.
A No one .
Q Did anyone else at IBC have knowledge of the contra
funding network?
A No, not at the time. Only that an administrative
assistance sometimes was involved in handling money, checks.
Q , To your knowledge, who at NEPL had information
about or was involved with the contra funding network?
A Well, certainly all of the fund-raisers knew what
they were raising money for, and whether they knew of the
precise disposition of the contributions, I have no way of
knowing.
Q Can you state for the record who the fund-raisers
at NEPL were at the time that you believe would have knowledge
of the purpose of the fund-raising that they were doing?
A Cliff Smith, who had a title; I believe it was
Director of Political Affairs, something like that, at NEPL.
^■■■^■■■^^ was another fund-raiser. Jane McLaughlin.
David Lane.
What about
Littledale?
A Oh, maybe that was the name. I'm confusing names.
HI is somebody else. ^rrf9B Littledale,
yes .
482
inc44
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
0O19
I
r!2o
21
O022
23
24
MLLED RVOKTma CO.. INC.
i07CSir«<. NE 25
Wuhington. D C 2000:
mussw
44
I 'm sorry.
Q So I take it that the name, ^HBH^BH^^I^ should
be struck from —
A 4|mm^|Hp|^ should be — if there is such a
person--should not be involved. 1 may know a flBHlHHHHB^
from some place.
Q That was my concern. To your knowledge, what did
IBC do with the contra-assistance payments?
A They were received from NEPL and transferred to IC,
Inc. where they remained until such time as Mr. North,
Colonel North, instructed where they were to go. And I used
the word "instruction" deliberately because neither Mr.
Miller nor myself would ever know how to dispose of the
resources, other than to take it, as our own initiative, and
to do something with it.
Q Whose idea was it to transfer the funds from IBC to
IC, Inc.?
A I believe it was Mr. Miller's.
Q Do you recall why he decided to put IC, Inc. into
the contra-funding picture?
A Because it existed. Because it was convenient and
fast. I, at the time, argued against it. I said why do we
have to be a vehicle for NEPL?
Q Was there any reason why IBC itself didn't retain
the money for distribution at Colonel North's instruction?
483
art45
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
lujjK ntKmTma co.. wc.
507 C Scim. N E 25
Vaihufiixi. D C 20002
MNCUSSiFlED
45
A I don't know.
Q Did Mr. Miller ever express to you his preference
for transferring the funds to IC, Inc. prior to ultimate
distribution?
A Yes.
Q What did he tell you about that?
A I believe it had to do with the tax implications of
handling large sums of money inside the United States. Also,
for reasons of privacy, and convenience.
Q . Can you be a little more precise about his concern
about the tax implications of receiving large sums of money?
A Well, again, large sums of money would be handled
by IBC, and IBC would have to explain it some time, or
another, where the money came from and where it went.
Q But IBC handled those large sums of money anyhow,
right?
A Yes, and he explained to me that this was considered
a "pass-through," was the word he used. A pass-through,
which would mean that the monies would not be taxable. In
other words, they were not for our benefit.
Q Would it not have been the same pass-through if the
money had just gone into IBC, and then been ultimately
distributed to the recipients at the direction of Colonel
North?
A That's a supposition.
Offllil-^KiFiFn
484
art46
UNCUSSIFIEO
46
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■u-u ntnmwo Co.. mc
107CSu«i. NE 2 5
WaihiDfion. C 20002
Q Did you ask him why one pass-through was different
than the other?
A Yes. I probably did.
Q Do you recall what he responded?
A Oh, again, just the saune explanation.
Q Did Miller tell you that he received any legal
advice in connection with the pass-through distinction
A Yes. I believe he did. I believe he received
accounting advice, tax advice, perhaps more than legal.
Q '^ Did the accounting advice, to your knowledge, come
from IBC's accountants?
A I believe so.
Q Were those accountants —
A It could have been somebody else. 1 don't know.
Q You don't know?
A Mo.
Q Okay. Did Miller explain to you, with any preci-
sion, his concern for privacy that would be fulfilled if the
money was passed to IC, Inc. rather than distributed straight
out of IBC?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell us a bit about what he said with
respect to privacy.
A I can't say much more than what I already said,
only that that was a concern, and that this particular bank
485
art47
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■i±£K naroinwn co.. nc.
507CSOTti. NE 2 5
VuhmiTon. D C- 20002
47
was used to handling transfers in various directions,
quickly, and, privately.
Q You mentioned a moment ago, that it was Colonel
North who directed the ultimate distribution of the funds
from IC, Inc. Did Colonel North also determine--! take it,
then--the timing and the amount of funds that would go to
particular recipients?
A I have no precise knowledge of any amounts involved,
at any time. As far as the timing, yes. I sensed, as I
related- to you earlier, that there was urgency at various
times, great concern to both raise and transfer funds.
Q All right. How was the ultimate distribution
accomplished?
A My understanding is that Colonel North communicated
with Mr. Miller, either personally, or by telephone, or some
way, a request or an instruction to transfer whatever monies
might be available--I cannot say a specific sum because it
would be a function of how much was available, to a certain
entity. That is all I know. Where the account numbers, or
the naimes of the organizations ceune from, I have no idea.
Well, they obviously came from Colonel North, but I
do not know about the steps involved in Mr. Miller's getting
that information in order to carry out that step.
Q When you said that the particular names of the
recipients and the account numbers obviously came from
486
art48
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MIL1£* HtKlKTma CO.. INC
S07 C Su«t. N E 25
Wuhmiioa. C. 20001
wnssn
48
Colonel North, how do you know that?
A Because to my knowledge, Mr. Miller was dealing
with no one else on this matter.
Q Do you know for a fact that Miller didn't instigate,
or initiate the names and account numbers of the ultimate
recipients?
A I don't know for a fact, no.
Q Did Miller ever tell you that North gave him the
names and account numbers of the ultimate recipients?
A , No. I said my understanding was that this informa-
tion came from Colonel North. In fact I believe Mr. Miller
told me that Colonel North had provided the information for
the transfers.
Q Right. So the basis for your understanding was
that Miller had told you that North was giving him this
information?
A Yes.
Q All right. That North was also giving him the
instructions or direction for the ultimate distribution. Is
that correct?
A Correct.
Q Upon receipt of the instructions from Colonel North
to distribute the money from IC, Inc., or, I take it there
were one or two instances in which money was distributed
directly from IBC, what did IBC then do, internally, to
487
art49
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
H>x£K nrCKnta co.. inc.
>07 C Sum, .N E 25
Wuhiniim. D C 20002
i
^ElASSlfe
49
accomplish the transaction?
A Sent Telexes, or, in some instances, a written
memorandum to the bank.
Q When you say "to the bank," for clarification of
the record, you're referring to the bank in the Cayman
Islands?
A Correct.
Q That was the bank at which IC, Inc. was holding
accounts?
A . Correct.
Q So there were actually instructions to the bank
with respect to IC, Inc. accounts to which the money had been
transferred?
A Correct.
MR. KAPLAN; I am going to ask the reporter to mark
as the next-numbered exhibit a composite exhibit of a Telex
and a letter from yourself and Mr. Miller to a Mr. David
Piesing in the Cayman Islands.
[Whereupon, the document
referred to was marked
Gomez Deposition Exhibit
No. 4 for identification.]
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q I am not concerned about the specifics of this
particular transaction. You'll note that the first two pages
488
artSO
50
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MIUIII ItErOOTINa CO . MC.
507 C Sutrt. N E 2 5
Wuhiniron. D C. 20002
of the exhibit are the Telex, and the next two pages are a
letter signed by you and Mr. Miller, that confirms the Telex.
All I want to ask you is whether you can identify
Exhibit 4, that has been passed on to you by the reporter.
A Is this all Exhibit 4?
Q Right.
A Well, the Telex I don't recall ever seeing, nor do
I ever recall seeing the term "freedom network" used. This
is the first time I've seen this Telex.
Q . What about the attached letter that's pages 3 and 4
of Exhibit 4?
A Yes. I signed this letter.
Q So I take it you have seen that letter?
A Well, I have to qualify the word "seen."
Q Is that your signature?
A That's my signature.
Q Did you typically review letters that were put in
front of you for your signature?
A Not carefully. I glanced at them, and, at Mr.
Miller's request, signed them, and that was it.
Q Is this the typical method which you described just
a bit earlier in your testimony as to how distributions of
money from IC, Inc. were accomplished upon receipt of
instructions from Colonel North?
A Yes. iiM/^j A^n^nrr^.
Hi ^mm
489
artSl
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
yiU^K KEKXmMO CO . INC.
507 C Stictl. N E 25
Vuhinium. D C i0002
51
Q To your knowledge, did Channell or Conrad have any
knowledge of the ultimate disposition or distribution of the
contra-assistance funds?
A I don't know to what extent they were aware of the
final disposition.
Q You mentioned, a bit earlier, that you discussed
with Miller at least the propriety of the contra-funding
network in which IBC became involved, and you mentioned some
of the substance of those conversations.
MR. KAPLAN: I am going to ask the reporter to mark
as Deposition Exhibit No. 5 an exhibit provided to us, again,
by your counsel, which is a typewritten exhibit entitled
"Statutory Provisions on Contra Aid."
[Whereupon, the document
referred to was marked
Gomez Deposition Exhibit
No. 5 for identification.]
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Do you recognize this exhibit?
A I've never seen it before.
Q Did you provide this exhibit to Mr. Miller?
A No. I don't believe so.
Q Is it possible that you provided a copy of Exhibit
No. 5 to Mr. Miller?
A I don't remember. As far as I'm concerned, thLa-is
490
art52
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
y«x£R ntfotnma co.. mc.
507 C Sueei. NE 25
Wuhmpoa. C 20002
(1021 M(i.""
MlASSf'
52
the first time I've seen this document.
Q To your knowledge, was anyone else aware, anyone
else at the NSC, aware of the contra-assistance network that
was being conducted by NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. and Colonel North?
A I cannot say, for certain, whether anyone else was.
Q Do you have any information, or inkling, that there
were others at the NSC who were knowledgeable of your network?
A Colonel North's secretary.
Q That's Fawn Hall, I take it?
A ^ Fawn Hall. And that's merely supposition on my
part because she was involved in messages, and meetings.
Q Did you yourself ever speak with Ms. Hall about any
items of detail relating to the contra-assistance network?
A No.
Q Are you aware as to whether Rich Miller spoke with
Ms. Hall about such details?
A No.
Q But I take it that IBC received phone calls from
Ms. Hall relating either details or instructions, or messages
from North relating to the contra-assistance network, is that
right?
A Yes.
Q Are you aware of anyone else at the White House who
was knowledgeable about the contra-assistance network?
A Well, I'm sorry, but you cojitinue to use the term
491
art53
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
utjjjt nm nima co.. mc
507 C Sucti. N E 2 5
Vuhmpon D C 10002
53
"network" and--
Q Right. That's correct. By using the term--
A --that suggests a larger enterprise, and what I
know about is IBC, NEPL, and Colonel North's office.
Q When I use the phrase '"contra-assistance network"
in the context of this deposition, what I'm referring to is
the NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc., and North contra-assistance —
A Network.
MR. PRECUP: Activities.
MR. KAPLAN: --activities, that were being conducted
between the spring of 1985 and the fall of 1986.
THE WITNESS: There were other people in the White
House who were aware of the fund raising, but I do not
believe were aware of the disposition of the funds.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Who, to your knowledge, at the White House, was
aware of the fund-raising aspect?
A Well, there were a number of people who par-
ticipated in briefings that were related to the fund-raising
effort, including Mary Masing who was then in the Office of
Public Affairs, and her predecessor, Linda Chavez. Pat
Buchanan. Linas Kojelis, also in Public Affairs. Public
Liaison. I'm sorry. That should be Office of Public
Liaison. And other names escape me at this time, but there
are surely others who, at one time or another, learned of, or
492
art54
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
vLLn ntromma co.. mc.
507 c Sci«t. N E 25
Wai)ua(ion. O C i0002
54
were involved in the briefings.
Q Can you simply describe, to create a more clear
record, what you mean when you say that there were persons at
the White House who were aware of the fund-raising aspect of
the NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. network?
A Well, the briefings I believe — I never made a
presentation myself, or acted on behalf of NEPL, or Mr.
Channell, or any of those people with respect to a briefing
at the White House. So what I'm relating to you is, again,
something that I've gathered over time through a series of
conversations .
But the procedure was to have a briefing at the
White House wherein Colonel North would make his presentation
about the plight of the resistance, and then the guests would
repair to the Hay-Adams Hotel where they would be solicited.
I believe that in the context of arranging for the
briefings, it was related to persons involved in facilitating
those briefings, that this was part of a fund-raising effort,
in order to justify the trouble. That this was part of the
outside-assistance efforts that were being undertaken by a
variety of groups .
I'm sure that in one or more instances, this case
was made very clear to people, and so far as it related to
fund raising for advertising, announcements, the so-called
Central American Freedojn Brpgf^in'.wljittJlfVas a rather major
'wmi f{gSiai!T^
493
art55
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HUJM MVOITTWa CO.. MC.
507 C Saect, N E 25
Vutunfuio. C 2000:
"nJl M6-MM
DEUSSl®
55
undertaking on the part of the NEPL group and IBC.
So I believe that people knew about the ultimate
purpose of those meetings at least, if not others.
Q To your knowledge, was Elliott Abrams aware of the
contra-funding network that we've been discussing?
A No . He was aware of the fund raising but not of
the disposition because he participated in the briefing at
the White House, and spoke to the assembled group, but I think
he did so ingenuously, or unwittingly. If there was any
question of fund raising, and so on, he was not a party to it.
Q Is it fair to say, Mr. Gomez, that those persons who
were aware of the fund-raising aspect of the network knew that
they were participating in such fund raising by their
presence, or presentations at the White House briefings that
were set up by NEPL and IBC?
A People at the White House were aware of the fund
raising?
Q Yes .
A I have no direct knowledge that they were aware.
It is an assumption, on my part, that in — whoever explained
to them the reasons for having such a briefing, explained
that these persons were contributors to a particular program,
or cause.
Q The point I'm just trying to pin down is with
respect to your knowledge or understanding. Did you under-
494
art56
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
WLixn nromvia co.. mc.
)07 C Sum. N E 2 5
Tuluinton, D C !0002
uimSi
56
stand that the persons at the White House who participated in
the briefings for NEPL contributors, or potential con-
tributors, knew at the time that they were participating in a
fund-raising endeavor?
A I had no first-hand knowledge of that.
Q But I take it that is your understanding?
A It's my understanding that--
Q I'm going to ask you on what you base that under-
standing.
A ■ Conversations with people about the efforts to
arrange the meetings.
Q When you say "conversations with people, " are you
referring to people at the White House?
A No. I'm referring to Mr. Miller and Mr. Channell.
Q Are you referring to conversations with Channell
and Miller about their conversations with persons at the White
House?
A Yes .
Q On the basis of those conversations, and the
circumstances, you arrived at an understanding that the
persons in the White House who participated in these NEPL
briefings for contributors, or potential contributors, knew
that they were engaging in some fund-raising endeavor?
A Yes. Some of them. I could not say all of them.
Q Could you say which ones you believed were know-
495
art57
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■kxut nromma co . inc.
!07 C Stretr. N E 2 5
'Xuhwftoa. D C :000i
oirlb
57
ledgeable participants in a fund-raising endeavor?
A I could not be specific about it because it's
second- and third-hand information. It's just my general
sense is that it was understood that these people were raising
money to assist the advancement of the Administration's
policies in Central America.
Q Did you ever participate in preparing any memoranda
that were circulated within the White House arranging these
briefings for NEPL contributors or potential contributors?
A - I may have seen a memorandum to that effect written
by Colonel North, or someone in the Office of Public Liaison,
but do not recall originating, drafting, contributing to any
such memoranda.
Q Could you describe any participation that you had
in arranging the White House briefings that occurred in June
1985, October 1985, November 1985, January 1986, among others.
A Yes. I held telephone conversations with Colonel
North, probably attended a meeting or two, maybe more, with
him in that regard, on behalf either of IBC, Mr. Miller or
Mr. Channell. But this had to do with coordinating dates,
making sure that invitations to attend were sent out on a
timely basis, that sort of thing. My relationship with
respect to those briefings changed over time. My sense is
that at the outset, Mr. Miller and I worked closely with
Colonel North arranging for those briefings, and then, as
496
art58
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■•XEK RETORTINa CO.. MC.
i07 C Stmt. N E 25
Wuhmiton. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
58
experience was acquired, both Mr. Miller and I took a back
seat, and we were told when the briefings were going to be
arranged.
Q To whom did you take a back seat?
A I believe to Mr. Channell. He, or Mr. Conrad,
began dealing more directly with Colonel North.
Q Were you involved in the participation of the
President in the January 1986 briefing?
A I was involved to the extent that I knew that a
request .had been made of him to participate.
Q who made that request?
A Well, Mr. Channell originated the request. He
always wanted the President to endorse his progratms because it
was useful for his fund-raising purposes.
Q Did you help to arrange the President's presence in
any fashion?
A No. I attended the briefing. I was told when it
was, where it was, and I went there.
Q Were you aware that certain NEPL contributors had
one-on-one meetings with the President over time?
A I have heard since that time, that such meetings
took place.
Q Did you have any involvement in arranging those
meetings with the President?
A No.
yNC!J\SSIFIF!l
497
T4
art59
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■LLIR REPOOTINa CO . INC.
)07 C Sircti. N E 2 5
<rishm|iixi. C 20002
UNClASSIfiEO
59
Q Were you aware that North had one-on-one meetings
with certain NEPL contributors over time?
A I learned shortly after--I don't know how many
weeks or days--that North had individual meetings with
contributors or potential contributors.
Q Did you help to arrange any of those meetings?
A No.
MR. KAPLAN: This probably is a good time to break.
[Brief recess . ]
■. BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q We were talking, right before we took a break, about
various white House briefings that were arranged, at least in
part by IBC for NEPL contributors or potential contributors.
Did there come a time when an individual named
David Fischer began to perform services for IBC and NEPL in
arranging these White House briefings?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall when that association began?
A It'd be in the fall of 1985.
Q when did you first meet Mr. Fischer?
A The fall of 1985.
Q what was your understanding as to the services that
were to be performed by Fischer for NEPL and/or IBC?
A Well, initially, I understood that his respon-
sibilities were to lie almost exclusively in relationships
498
arteO
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mu-iK RCPOimNo co.. wc.
507 C Suen. N E 25
WaihutTon. O C 20002
(202 1 V46-6666
UNCLASSIFIED
60
with the white House, that is, assisting and obtaining
letters, obtaining appointments, and access, basically.
Q On what did you base that understanding?
A And also counsel on how the white House would
behave or react to certain proposals--you know — the whole
business. I'm sorry.
Q On what did you base that understanding?
A Conversations with Mr. Miller and with Mr. Fischer.
Q Were you involved in the initial dealings, if you
will, among IBC and Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano, with respect
to the development of a professional relationship?
A I recall attending one meeting, or a part of one
meeting at our offices with Mr. Artiano, Mr. Fischer, and Mr.
Miller.
Q Did this meeting occur at a time prior to the
formalization of the business relationship?
A Yes. It must have been around November of December
of 1985.
Q Do you recall the substance of that meeting?
A No . I don't think I stayed for the entire meeting.
I greeted them. Or the meeting had been very brief. I
remember discussing the responsibilities, what the organiza-
tion was looking for. Fees. But that's about all.
Q When did you first meet Artiano?
A I believe at that time.
m\ m hr^c-m rn
499
artei
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
ULLSt RcromNa co . mc.
JOTCSirett, NE 25
VutuDftoa. DC 20002
*m»9
61
Q Do you recall the basis for the fees that were to
be charged by Fischer and Artiano for performing these White
House access functions?
A There was discussion of a monthly retainer. There
was also a discussion of a fee per meeting with the President,
or involving the President, but I don't recall the specifics,
that is, aunounts of money.
Q When do you recall the discussion of the fee per
meeting with the President?
A That was fairly early on, November, December of
1985.
Q Do you understand that that became the basis of the
payments for the business relationship between Fischer,
Artiano and IBC?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall what the amount of fees charged were?
A No. I only recall discussion by these men of
interests or concerns of Mr. Channell to pay whatever it
took, or something to that effect, and there was some talk
that he was prepared to offer as much as--a retainer as much
as $25,000 a month, and for what period I don't know. When
it was starting, I don't know.
Q Was there a discussion also as to what amount
Channell would pay per meeting arranged with the President or
involving the President?
500
art62
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mjjB> ntromma co.. mc.
)07 C 5tre«. N E 2 5
Wuhinfioa. D C 20002
«UiS«8
52
A My memory is sketchy on that and perhaps clouded,
also, because of news accounts since that time, and so I
couldn't give a specific response. I remember--well , what I
just said.
Q Is it fair to say, then, that your understanding is
that Fischer and Artiano were being paid on the basis of
meetings arranged with the President, or which involved the
President?
A That's only partially true. I know that payment in
relatiORship to meetings was discussed and agreed upon.
Whether that was--there were other duties to be performed, I
think is rather clear. That it was not based solely on
meetings with the President.
Q But at least a portion of the fees that they were
paid was based on the number of meetings that they could
successfully arrange with the President, or involving the
President?
A I don't know what the proportion is, or the portion.
Q But that was your understanding?
A That was my understanding.
Q Your understanding was based on conversations with
Miller?
A With Miller, and parts of meetings that I attended,
or a meeting. I believe I attended one meeting with Mr.
Fischer and Mr. Artiano, and I left early.
iiiim Aooinrn
501
art63
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
wLLDi mnm ima co.. mc
i07 C Stren. N E 2 5
VuhuifTon. DC 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
63
Q That meeting, I take it then, is the one you
described earlier involving Fischer, Artiano, Miller,
Channell, and yourself?
A Yes. Well, Channel!, I don't believe was there. i
don't recall ever being in a meeting with Axtiano, Channell,
Miller and Fischer.
Q Okay.
A And as I recall, this meeting was exploratory.
They were finding, looking for a mechanism, and establishing
relationships .
Q Was there any subsequent conversations that you had
with anybody, which confirmed the understanding that you had,
that Fischer and Artiano were being paid, at least in part,
based on the number of presidential meetings that they could
arrange?
A Did I attend any of the meetings in that regard or
any other —
Q Well, did you have any other conversations which
confirmed that understanding?
A I heard references to payment for meetings in the
context of payment for other services as well.
Q Who made those references?
A Channell. Miller. Fischer.
Q I take it that the references of payments for
meetings were indeed references that led you to believe, or
502
art64
UNCLASSIFIti
64
_ .1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Haj-Eit RcrOKTiNo CO., mc.
507 C Sucti. N E 2 5
WuhulfTon. D C 20002
confirmed your understanding that Fischer and Artiano were
being paid to arrange meetings with the President, or that
involved the President?
A Among other things .
Q Okay. Did you, Mr. Gomez, have any involvement or
knowledge of solicitations of money intended for the purchase
of lethal supplies for the contras?
A You asked--again.
MR. PRECUP: Would you repeat the question, please.
MR. KAPLAN: Sure. I asked whether you had any
involvement in, or have any knowledge of solicitations
intended for the purchase of lethal supplies for the contras .
THE WITNESS: I don't recall any solicitations
specifically for lethal weapons. I do recall some con-
tributors mentioning that they would like to contribute to
purchase lethal weapons, but that was not in the context of a
solicitation. It was their expression of their — the intensity
of their desire to do something to help the cause.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q To which contributors are you referring?
A Well, I believe Mr. Raunsey may have mentioned once
buying--or providing money to buy a surface-to-air missile.
Q Anyone else?
A I can't remember some of the names of people that I
may have sat next to at a dinner, or something, who expressed
iiiiAi iAoinrn
503
art65
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
WLLOi tttronrma Co.. mc
)07 C Sam. N E 2 5
Wuhingtoa. D C 20002
!i!f
65
something to that effect.
Q Were you involved in any way with the solicitation
of Mr. Rainsey in June of 1985, which resulted in his payment
of $10,000 to an account controlled by Alfonso Rubelo?
A No . I wasn't involved. I know that he was in
touch with Mr. Miller and Mr. Channell around that time. I
also had a sense that Mr. Rubelo had some particular needs at
that time, but I was not involved.
Q Do you know anything about a solicitation of Nelson
Bunker Hunt that occurred in September of 1985 in Dallas?
A I only heard that Mr. Channell and perhaps others
of his group were going to Dallas.
Q Did you hear anything about what happened in Dallas?
A I believe Mr. Calero was going to be there. I
believe that Mr. Hunt was having his own event of some kind,
that somehow Mr. Channell and/or Mr. Calero were going to
participate in, but that's the extent of my knowledge.
Q Were you ever asked to help prepare a list of arms,
or any other lethal supplies for use in solicitations of
particular contributors?
A Yes.
Q Can you describe your participation in those
activities .
A Yes. Mr. Channell told us--Mr. Miller and myself--
that a lot of the contributojrs wa^^tgd to have a sense of the
tne contriDutors wa{^tea
iiiklAil AOOiULM
504
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■luxn nroKTwa co . mc.
i07 C SuCTt N E 2 5
Wuhmiioo. DC 2000!
ICLASSIFIEO
66
equivalent of what their contributions might mean in terms of
hardware. They wanted to be assured that if they gave
$25,000 that might be enough to buy x, y, or z . And so we
were asked to try to attach some dollar cunounts to certain
weaponry .
I either received a sheet of paper that had such
weapons and amounts — things like--! mean, maybe they weren't
just weapons or lethal equipment, but also boots, and so on.
I don't recall what was on the list.
Q . From whom did you receive that list?
A I believe it was from Colonel North.
Q Did you request the list from North?
A Probably.
Q Was North aware, to your knowledge, that the list
was going to be used in fund raising by NEPL, or others?
A I believe he was.
Q Do you recall when the request to North was made,
or when he provided that list to you?
A It seems like the spring of '86, or winter of '86.
Q Okay. Are you aware of any other arms lists, or
lethal-supply purchase lists that were created during your
time at IBC?
A No . I believe that's the only one.
Q What did you do with the list that you received from
North?
km Acciprn
505
art67
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
u*xa> KtKMmia co . mc.
507 C Sum N E 25
Vuh-o(ton. D C 20002
67
A Gave it to Mr. Miller.
Q Do you know what Miller did with the list?
A I presume he gave it to Mr. Channell. I was caught
in the middle on this. The request for such a list, I
understand, had been made to Mr. Miller, and he asked me to
either call North and find out what I could get, and I
believe he was out of town, or otherwise unavailable, and so
I got involved at that stage.
Q Did you ever hear from anybody the results of the
solicitation of Nelson Bunker Hunt that took place in Dallas
in September 1985?
A I remember some discussion about Bunker Hunt having
financial difficulties, and I had read in the paper at the
time about his silver problems, and that there was some
disappointment regarding the fruitfulness of that visit to
Dallas .
Q Were you ever in North's office when he made a call
to Hunt?
A I can't say for certain that I was not. I do recall
one time in his office, at least once, where he called
somebody, someone whose name I would remember--recognize, not
remember — and I can't say for certain that that was Mr. Hunt.
Q Did you participate at all in any solicitation of
funds from Barbara Newington?
No.
llNCLASSlFlfD
506
art68
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
u*±u> lurotmNa co . inc.
)07 C Stiett. N E 2 5
WtihiDlTon. DC 20OO2
mussM
68
Q Did you participate at all in any solicitation of
funds from William O'Boyle?
A No.
Q Did you participate at all on any solicitation of
funds from Ellen Garwood?
A No.
Q Did you participate at all in any solicitation of
funds from Fred Sacher?
A Yes .
Q - All right. Can you describe your participation in
the solicitation of Mr. Sacher.
A All right. I had met Mr. Sacher in one of the
briefings and we sat next to each--or at one of the dinners.
We sat next to each other, and he was, expressed his great
concern about the media, and how the media were portraying
events in Central America.
Later, I heard from either, directly from Mr.
Channell, or through Mr. Miller from Mr. Channell, that Mr.
Sacher was interested in contributing to a public-information
effort.
Shortly thereafter, Mr. Channell asked me to put
together some thoughts on a kind of a progrsun which could be
carried out in the United States to achieve more--a better
understanding of the situation of the resistance, and the
nature of the Sandinista regime, which I did. I prepared it.
luiriLAXLOincn
507
art69
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■uxn w tx jwmo co . mc.
J07 c SoMt. N E 25
Waitunxnifi. DC 20002
wmmii
69
I believe my first draft, they didn't like, so they
asked me to change it, and it became bigger. They forwarded
it to him and he sent it back, or gave them some comments,
and then, eventually, there was a piece of paper on which a
solicitation for contributions would be based.
That led to a subsequent dinner, a briefing first
and then a dinner, I believe, at which solicitations were
made for that very program, and that was in effect the
beginning of the program.
And I do not recall soliciting. I recall par-
ticipating in the preparation of the program, or designing an
information program, and justifying the costs, and the nature
of the program. But I don't recall exactly where--wait.
There was a dinner with Sacher, I believe at the Hay-Adams.
Q Do you recall when that dinner occurred?
A Oh, my gosh.
Q Was it some time during the fall of 1985?
A It had to be in the fall, but more precise than
that, I know it was cold, it could have been November, and I
know that it also precedes the January meeting at the White
House at which the President spoke, because that was really
the kickoff of the whole effort.
Q Right.
A And at that time, Mr. Channell, at the dinner, Mr.
Channell made a pretty hard pitch for a lot of money. I
mini Anoirirn
508
art70
507 C Strcn. N E
Wuluil(loo. C 20002
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
UNCUSSIFIED
70
forget the amount but it was over a million dollars.
Q Do you recall what the result of Mr. Channell's
pitch was?
A I don't remember whether he agreed to give something
that night, or whether he was going to sleep on it, and they
were going to meet again the next day. I believe the latter
is what actually happened. And whether he even got a
commitment the next day, I don't know. My sense is that they
continued to deal with each other by telephone after that-
Q . Do you recall a phone conversation or a meeting with
North in September of 1985 in which Mr. Sacher was discussed?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us what your recollection is of the
substance of that conversation.
A I believe Mr. Channell may have been in the room--i
can't be certain — and I believe that he asked Mr. North to
contact Sacher directly, Mr. Sacher directly, by telephone, to
make a case to him.
Q where did the meeting take place?
A I believe it was in North's office.
Q Okay. Do you recall having told North that Sacher
approaches $500,000?
A Me telling North?
Q Yes.
MR. PRECUP: Approaches?
UNCIASSIFI
509
art71
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■Ujn RCKMTMO CO.. MC.
!07 C Scint NE '^
WuhinfTon. D C :0002
«l!i^^\®
71
THE WITNESS: Approaches?
MR. KAPLAN: Right.
THE WITNESS: What do you mean? That his contribu-
tion could be that amount?
MR. KAPLAN: Right.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall it but it's possible.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Do you recall having discussed with North —
A I'm sorry.
Q • Go ahead.
A Mr. Channell may have described Mr. Sacher's
contribution potential to me, and I was relaying that to
Colonel North.
Q Do you recall a conversation with North in which
Sacher was discussed also in the context of Cable News
Network, or "Nightline" or "20/20", and other television
prograuns?
A No. If you could expand on your question, I might
be able to help you.
Q Did you have any other substantive conversations
with North about your dealings with Sacher?
A Perhaps only substantive in regard to the nature of
the program that he was interested in conducting, or seeing
conducted, and the approximate cost of such a program, and,"
again, I shouldn't use ^^'^qrt t-afV^^^P^ " because I'm really
Duldn't use th^^Qfid i-SW^^
510
art72
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MiAxn RcpoirrMa co.. inc.
507 C Scrtn. N E '^
""-.Kinnon. DC J0002
UNCUSSIFIED
72
trying to be as helpful as I can.
The eventuality of a briefing in which the program
would be presented.
Q Did you participate in a solicitation of funds for
the contras from any other individuals?
A Well, I was in the room at the Hay-Adams where
solicitations were made, so that was a roomful of people.
Q what about more private solicitations than the
roomful of people?
A ' Yes. In June of 1985, Mr. Channell told me that he
wanted me to accompany him to Miami with Mr. Conrad in order
to provide Mr. Calero with some training in public speaking,
for him to polish his presentation that he made to organiza-
tions, for him to improve his image and his impact. And I
said fine, and we set the date, and I later learned that Mr.
Sacher was going to be in Miami at the same time.
I don't know how long before I learned that. And
we got to Miami and Mr. Channell contacted Mr. Sacher and
arranged for Mr. Sacher to meet at the Calero home. And at
that time Mr. Calero 's brother either showed up, or was
already there, and Channell wanted to solicit Sacher for
something, and I don't know what it was.
But in the context of their conversations, it was
learned that there was a plane in Fort Lauderdale. I don't
know much about military matters so I can't say what kind of
511
art73
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mjuem mponrma co.. hc.
507 C Stim N E 25
WvJimiion. D C 20002
UNCLA$Siri[D
73
plane it was, only that it had four engines. And that they
wanted to buy it, "they" meaning the brothers Calero.
And Channell seized on that and said, "Let's go see
the plane, Fred," or something to that effect. So we went
out there and looked at this plane.
And later that evening at a restaurant, Channel!
made a pitch to -- did I say Sacher?
Q Yes.
A Oh, I'm sorry. It's not Sacher. It's John Ramsey.
I'm sorry, please. It's John Ramsey who was in Miami, and he
made a pitch to John Ramsey to pay for the plane.
Q Do you know the result of that pitch?
A Ramsey did not want to. It was a negative.
Q All right. You testified a few minutes earlier
that you don't recall having helped to arrange any one-on-one
meetings between North and NEPL contributors or potential
contributors. If I can be a bit more specific, do you recall
calling North to request a briefing for a particular Channell
contributor in August of 1985?
A A briefing for an individual?
Q Yes .
A I may have done so, but I don't recall who the
individual was, and I don't recall the conversation.
Q Do you recall discussing Mrs. Newington during the
same time period with Colgri§J_;yQ;ctii?
eriod with ColcDnelNorth?
mm ko6vatti
512
mc7 4
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hiu£K nKmnto co.. wc.
507 C SciMi. N E 2 5
Vuhinrron. D C 20002
&u
74
A Yes.
Q What do you recall about the substance of that
conversation?
A Not very much. Mrs. Newington's name had come up
numerous times because I think Channel 1 regarded her as a
significant contributor. And Channell and Miller had had
conversations about her, as had Colonel North. And at that
time, I believe Mr. Miller was on vacation or out of town,
and I was asked to step in again. And I probably asked
something about. Are you going to meet with Mrs. Newington,
or When is Mrs . Newington coming to town? I later learned
that Colonel North went to Connecticut to meet with her. But
I believe by the time they met, Mr. Miller was back and made
the trip also.
Q Are you aware of the designation of a project
called a toys project that was kept in NEPL?
A I only became aware of it when I read about it in
the newspaper.
Q' So you never heard the phrase "toys project" used
by any NEPL employee or associate or IBC employee or associate
A Never -
Q — prior to the public disclosure this year?
A Never .
Q Mr. Gomez, what's your understanding as to the
■ lilAI I AOlt"ld5%
513
mc75
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■ujn wofmita CO.. we.
)07 C Sam. N E 25
Wuhin|Ton. D C 20002
WtASSIflEi
75
intended purpose of the contra assistance payments that were
being made as part of what I'm referring to as the shorthand
as contra assistance funding network?
A Well, my understanding from the outset was that it
was to be for non-lethal purposes; that because of the
suspension of U.S. aid, the resistance were in very difficult
circumstances. And I visited refugee camps and the main base
camp of the resistance and was able to see for myself the
conditions under which people were living, and was told by
both the resistance leaders as well as individuals —
peasants and fighters -- what their needs were. It was very
apparent. They lacked medicine, food, boots, clothing,
everything.
Colonel North, when the relationship began and we
started talking about assistance to the resistance, never
mentioned anything but aid to provide for basic needs to keep
this group alive. And in a series of conversations that I
had with Mr. Miller, I wanted to be assured myself that we
were not providing any money for weapons -- non-lethal — and
I received those assurances.
Q Why did you seek those assurances?
A Because I wanted to be sure that I was not party to
any violation of the Neutrality Act.
Q Now, you testified a moment ago that that was your
initial understanding. Did your understanding change over
■ laiMi ■ AAirim
514
mc76
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MILLIII KrORTWa CO.. INC.
)07 C Stim. N E 2 5
Vuhuutoo. D C. 20002
UNCUSSIFIED
76
time as to the intended purpose of the contra assistance
payments or solicitations?
A Slightly. That is because later I heard talk
about, well, one, this list of weapons, and my understanding
of that was that was a way to elicit contributions, and that
that would not be the final purpose to which the money would
be put; but, rather, that that was a means to get money which
would then be provided for general support or for non-lethal
assistance of whatever kind. It was not my understanding
moneys received through the Channell fund-raising efforts
were to go for lethal equipment.
Q Were you at the time --
A Although I could never be assured of that because I
didn't know where the money was going. I was told that, in
fact, moneys were going to provide assistance to various
groups, information, political support, general support, and
including operation for a little girl who had her arm shot or
somebody else that needed an operation on a leg or whatever.
That kind of thing — political activity, information
activity and general assistance.
Q Were you ever told about particular solicitations
in which this arms list that you described or other arms
lists were used to solicit money from certain individuals?
A The arms list, how that was used to solicit?
Q Right.
n^^uURf^lFIFn
515
nic77
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■ufR mroHma co.. mc.
507 C Suttt. N E ^ ^
Wuhintton. D C 20002
'Mimm
77
A And what was the disposition of the funds?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q So it's fair to say that there were a number of
individual solicitations that resulted in sizable contribu-
tions that you were not aware of the substance of those
solicitations?
A No.
Q Or the disposition of those contributions?
A . No.
Q When you say no, I take it that your response is
that, in fact, it is fair to say that that's the case with
respect to your knowledge.
A Yes. In fact, when I was asked to sign some of the
disbursements from IC, Inc. to various places, I asked Mr.
Miller, "Where is this going?" And in some instances, he
said he didn't know. In other instances, he said, well, this
is $100,000 for so-and-so who is going to use it for education
programs; or this is to help another group which I thought
was fine.
Q What is your current understanding as to the
intended purpose of the contra assistance payments that were
being made by NEPL to IBC?
MR. PRECUP: Let me see if I understand your
question before the witness answers.
516
mc78
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
8
L9
20
21
22
23
24
UKUai PtEVORTmO CO . INC.
>07 C Strctt. N E 25
WuhlAglOQ. D C. 20002
J. 1
El
78
You are asking him as of today what his understand-
ing is, including all the newspapers and general publicity of
the hearings here?
MR. KAPLAN: That's correct. Basically, I think
what we have on the record is that early on he received a
number of assurances that the money was going to be used for
humanitarian or non-lethal purposes. As time continued, I
believe that Mr. Gomez's testimony was that he began to have
a few doubts, but he could never know for sure because he
didn't know who the recipients were and he didn't know of
particular solicitations and he didn't know the disposition,
the ultimately disposition of the proceeds. And I was just
continuing the progression up to the present to ask whether
on any basis he's arrived at a different understanding today
than his latest one as to what the disposition or intended
purpose of those payments were.
THE WITNESS: Well, I'd like to go back to my
answer to your previous question because it helps explain my
mindset at the time when I believed that we were working
primarily or exclusively on non-lethal matters.
That is, that I had heard reports in the media of
contributions from other countries and from other individuals
which provided for weaponry, for lethal purposes. Therefore,
it was my understanding that our role was to provide for the
humanitarian side of things.
\\m kmM
517
mc79
iit±u> ntromma CO
W7 C Sireci. N E
'Vuhufton. D C 20002
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
«VkSS\®
79
Now, with respect to the ultimate use of the moneys
and what I know and understand today, I believe that a large
part of the moneys that were raised did go to the purposes
that we understood that they were going to; that is, non-
lethal. However, I learned from reading the press that some
moneys were transferred — and I don't remember the amounts -
- to Lake Resources. And I, of course, didn't remember what
Lake Resources was, but it has since become evidence that
Lake Resources was a company operated by people who were
involved in supplying or purchasing weapons. And I was
shocked when I learned that.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q You mentioned a bit earlier in your testimony that
you were concerned about the potential that some of these
funds might be going for lethal supplies because of your
concerns about the Neutrality Act. How did you develop an
understanding of and concern for potential violations of the
Neutrality Act?
A Well, questions about the Neutrality Act had
surfaced in the media very early on, shortly after the
suspension of official U.S. assistance. And so there was a
lot of discussion about it. I just wanted to be sure that we
were not dealing in weapons.
Q Did you ever seek legal advice with respect to the
Neutrality Act?
yNClASSIRED
518
mc80
tuLun REroRTma co . ihc,
507 C Sutet. N E
Wuhinftoo. D C 20002
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
iwsstte
80
A No, but I asked Mr. Miller whether he had.
Q What was his response?
A Yes, but I don't know if that was related spe-
cifically to the Neutrality Act.
Q Do you recall when this conversation about the
Neutrality Act and other legal implications took place?
A Probably in spring or winter of 1986.
Q Now, was this a conversation that took place as
part of your expression to Mr. Miller of reservations you had
about the contra assistance network in which IBC was engaged?
A Yes.
Q Now, you signed a number of letters that transferred
funds to Lake Resources, among others, and as you testified
earlier this morning, those letters were signed at Mr.
Miller's request and at Colonel North's prior instruction or
direction.
A To Mr. Miller.
Q To Mr. Miller. That's correct.
Did you ever ask Mr. Miller what Lake Resources was?
A I believe I did. I probably asked him what other
places, other things were, too, but he didn't know. And we
assumed that it was an account which was either controlled by
or made accessible to — that is, the funds in them would be
made accessible to the resistance.
Q There was a sizable amount of funds that went from
liMPI AOCIEitn
519
mc81
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
yLL£* npomma co . mc.
)07 C Sum. N E 25
WuhiTITOO. D C 20002 I
03MB
81
IBC and IC, Inc. to Lake Resources. I'm sure you noticed
that over time.
A Yes.
Q Did you press Mr. Miller or did you ever have a
discussion with him or North as to what Lake Resources was?
A First of all, I never discussed any of the funds
transfers with Colonel North.
Q Okay. I think that's important to clarify for the
record.
A - I did discuss it with Mr. Miller. I asked him if
he knew what Lake Resources and some of the other groups
were, and he said he didn't know. And I don't recall whether
I went any further than that, after having been reassured by
Mr. Miller that, again, his understanding that these moneys
were not going for legal purposes; and also that we could not
be held accountable for the funds once they were transferred.
In other words, I believe what he said, if I can
paraphrase it, was, well, once it leaves our hands we don't
know what happens to the money; therefore, it shouldn't be of
concern to us.
Q Did you ever discuss the contra assistance network
with David Fischer?
A No.
Q Did you ever discuss it with Marty Artiano?
A No.
\\m AQQinrn
520
nic82
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MLIU KVOHnNO CO . INC
iC7 C Sum. N E 2 5
Wuhinpon. DC 10002
iCLASSiFiED
82
Q Are you aware that in February of 1987 IBC prepared
a report for NEPL relating to so-called program expenditures
for the years 1985 and 19867
A I was aware of it.
Q Were you involved in the preparation of the report?
A No.
Q Did you review the report prior to its being
delivered to NEPL?
A I don't recall having reviewed it.
Q - Have you reviewed the report since?
A No. I don't believe I've ever seen it.
Oh, wait a minute. February '87... I didn't review
it. It was not even shown to me, as I recall.
Q Have you reviewed it since it was issued?
A No.
Q How did you become aware of the existence of the
report?
A Mr. Miller told me he was preparing it.
Q Did you read about the report in the press after it
was disclosed?
A Yes.
Q Did you ask Mr. Miller or anyone else to review a
copy of the report after having read of these press dis-
closures?
No.
UNCLASSIFIED
521
mc83
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLn mroimta co.. nc.
507 C Strett. N E ^ ^
Washiatno. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
83
Q Did you discuss any conclusions drawn on the report
with Mr. Miller?
A Yes. We discussed it once or twice.
Q Do you recall the substance of those discussions?
A Well, he was very concerned about accounting for
every cent that was received and disbursed under the Channell
relationship because in the haste to carry out programs or
projects, a lot of things fell through the cracks. And our
record-keeping was not as good as it should have been, and he
wanted to be sure that he had a record, to his best ability
to compile that record. That was it.
I do recall him telling me that he had received
letters from organizations in which it stated that they had
received moneys. I never saw the letters. I know that he
felt reassured by that.
Q Did you ever have occasion to discuss that report
with Channell?
A No.
Q With Conrad?
A I have not talked to them for a long time.
Q Did there come a time, Mr. Gomez, when IBC began to
deduct ten percent of the contra assistance payments for the
personal benefit of you and Mr. Miller?'
A Yes, although I wouldn't characterize it as for the
personal benefit of both of
- iir^i!; is-^inrn
522
mc84
mmm
I?
84
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■nun mromma CO.. mc.
)07 C Street. NE. 25
Vuhmitoti. D.C. 20002
Q Well, why don't you first tell me when the ten
percent began to be deducted from the contra assistance
payments?
A I don't remember exactly when it was. Late spring
or early summer of '86.
Q How would you characterize the ten percent deduc-
tion?
A Well, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, we had been
conducting programs at a rather frantic pace for well over a
year, and our sense all throughout that period was that we
were not being compensated adequately for our services . We
often talked. Rich Miller and myself talked about that
because we had put on a large number of staff and were paying
for large numbers of services. 1 noted that we didn't have
an accurate understanding of how much money was coming in and
how much was going out, and I was concerned about that.
Mr. Miller approached Mr. Channell about increasing
our retainer and was denied. So I was told by Mr. Miller
around this time that he had discussed with Colonel North
taking part of that, whatever it was, ten percent, and
putting it aside for us to later use in defraying operation
expenses. That's it.
Q Do you recall when Miller told you he had had that
conversation with North?
A I don ' t remember the
remember the date. , bam.
523
mc85
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HULn Noomwo co.. mc
50-CSum. NE 25
Wuhioitoo. D C. 20002
85
Q Is it possible that it was some time late in 1985?
A It's possible. I remember that the subject had
come up. Before it was actually begun, the subject had been
raised because...
Q To your knowledge, was there a time when the ten
percent began to be deducted as a paper matter prior to the
actual deductions themselves?
A I cannot give you any information on those details.
Q Okay. You mentioned in your previous answer that
the subject began to be discussed because, and then I think I
might have cut you off. Would you continue that answer?
A Well, I was concerned about the large staff and the
large number of expenditures that we were encountering. At
this time, I was not very involved in the Channel 1 matter. I
was doing other things. And it was just a concern.
I believe that Mr. Miller raised the idea of the
possibility of compensation with Colonel North some months
before it actually happened. In other words, this is
something that is an idea that arose and which was in the
back of some people's minds until it was later decided to go
ahead.
Q Did North approve the idea?
A I was told by Mr. Miller that North approved the
idea. He conveyed to me Colonel North's great appreciation
for what we were doing, the risks that we were taking, and
524
inc86
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HlUflt REPORTINQ CO.. INC.
507 C Sirett. N.E 25
Vuhuition. DC. 20002
UNCLASSIFIE!
86
the costs that we were bearing to carry out these programs .
Q When you say that there were significant program
expenditures and staffing that was required, which programs
are you referring to when you talk about the expenditures and
the staffing?
A NEPL, the public information campaigns.
Q Did these expenditures or staffing, though, have
anything to do necessarily with the contra funding network?
MR. PRECUP: Necessarily?
MR. KAPLAN: I will take that amendment to my
question.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Did the expenditures and staffing have anything to
do with the contra assistance network that was being conducted
by NEPL, IBC and IC, Inc.?
A I would say something to do with it, but not
entirely. Most of the work, the effort at that time was for
a public information program, a general support to NEPL.
They made many requests of us for information, for services,
for publications, for research, for many things that you
cannot necessarily separate from what is public information
and other assistance to the NEPL group from the fund-raising
and transfers.
Q Was it your understanding that the ten percent that
was being deducted from the contra assistance payments was
1 the contra assj
525
mc87
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MiLLE* ncromiNa co , mc.
107 C Strett. N E 2 5
Wubiopoo. D C 20002
llNCLASSra
87
additional compensation for all of the activities that IBC
was conducting across the board for NEPL?
A It wasn't explained to me that way. It was just
compensation for services, additional compensation over and
above the monthly retained which we always regarded as
inadequate .
Q The services we're talking about are the total
array of services that IBC was performing on NEPL's behalf,
not just the services or expenditures relating to the contra
assistance network.
A It was never put to me in those terms. In hind-
sight, it looks like that was the way it was.
Q when was World Affairs Counselors, Inc. established?
A I think in the summer of '86.
Q what's your understanding as to why World Affairs
was established?
A I believe Mr. Miller told me that it was to provide
a separate account to which moneys could be transferred from
IC, Inc., and which would on the basis of need revert back to
Gomez International and Miller Communications.
Q Did North approve, to your knowledge, of the
formation of World Affairs Counselors?
A According to Mr. Miller, yes.
Q To your knowledge, did North suggest the formation,
of World Affairs Counselors?
526
mc88
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
miLua RtronriNO co.. inc.
507 c Sum. N E •^ ^
WuhinsTon. D C. 20001
88
A I don't know where the initiative for it came.
Q Was Channell ever told or Conrad ever told about
the ten percent deduction that was being made of the contra
assistance payments?
A I was told by Mr. Miller that he had discussed it
with Mr. Channell, but after the fact.
Q Do you recall when Miller told you about his
discussion with Channell about this ten percent deduction?
A I can't recall exactly when it was. I would say
fall of. last year, maybe a year ago. Less than a year.
Q Did Miller relate to you any reaction that Channell
had?
A Yes. He said that Mr. Channell thought it was
acceptable.
Q Is it fair to say that you felt entitled to this
ten percent deduction because of the variety of services that
you were conducting on behalf of NEPL?
A Yes .
Q Is it also fair to say that you had no doubt that
North had complete authority to authorize the ten percent
deduction of the contra assistance payments?
A Our belief was that once the money reached IC, Inc.
we could not dispose of it without Colonel North's concurrence
or direction.
Q Was it your u nde r s.t lyifU an thSft North had complete
527
mc89
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MKUK RVOttTwa CO.. MC.
507 C SuCTt, N E 25
Vuhinfion. D C 20002
uiiCUSSIFlEO
89
discretion or control over the contra assistance payments
once they reached IC, Inc.?
A To say complete control may be going too far,
because —
Q How would you describe it?
A I believed that we had the option at any time to
return the money to anybody that provided it -- that is, back
to Channell — to close the account and to close shop. But
as far as where the money went and when it went and how much
went, that was 100 percent Colonel North's call.
Q Is that the basis on which you felt that he could
authorize to you the additional ten percent deduction from
the contra assistance payments?
A That's part of it.
Q Do you want to explain what the other parts were?
A Well, the sense that we had was that once the money
was there it was at his disposal, and our disposal insofar as
the procedures to be followed in handling transfers. Mr.
Miller could have, in effect, written himself a check on that
money, and no one would have been the wiser. We could have
done it without Colonel North's concurrence or awareness.
So when you say did it solely depend on Colonel
North, I would say no, it did not. But it was a major factor.
Q Is it fair to say that you wouldn't have started to
deduct the ten percent without. Coicnel North's approval?
528
mc90
UNCLASSIFIEO
90
1 A That's fair.
2 Q Was World Affairs Counselors set up, at least in
3 your mind, primarily to receive the ten percent deduction of
4 the payments that were transferred from IBC to IC, Inc.?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Other than this ten percent deduction or payments
7 to World Affairs Counselors, did you receive any benefits
8 from the provisions of monetary assistance to the resistance?
9 A No.
10 Q , Are you aware of anyone else receiving or deriving
11 any benefit from the contra assistance funding network?
12 A No.
13 MR. PRECUP: Apart from the contras?
14 MR. KAPLAN: Apart from the contras and apart from
15 any cut of contributions that NEPL might have taken prior to
16 passing them on to IBC.
17 THE WITNESS: No.
18 MR. KAPLAN: I think this is a good time to break
19 for lunch.
20 [Luncheon recess.]
21 BY MR. KAPLAN:
22 Q When was the Institute for North-South Issues
23 created?
24 A I don't remember the exact date when it was
HLLEN KErORTINO CO.. MC.
)07 C Sum. N E 25
Waikuiiioit. DC 20002
formally recorded in the District of Columbia, but early '84.
529
artgi
0(
Itli
91
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mxEn nromuMi co . mc.
J07 C S<rm. N E 25
Wuiuoftoa. D C 20002
Q Was it some time after your retirement from the
State Department?
A Yes.
Q Soon thereafter?
A Yes .
Q Did you incorporate it?
A Yes.
Q Did you also apply for tax-exempt status?
A Yes .
Q ', Do you recall when the organization received its
tax-exempt determination from the IRS?
A It was November or December of 1985.
Q Did Colonel North have any involvement in the
application that the Institute filed for tax-exempt status?
A No.
Q Was the tax-exempt status granted by the Internal
Revenue Service, insofar as you know, in a routine manner?
A Yes. Slow.
Q Could you state, again, when the tax-exempt status
was received.
A November or December of '85.
Q Do you recall when the application was filed for
tax-exempt status?
A 1984.
Q Was there some problem in the application? Did the
530
art92
INCLASSIFlEi
92
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
;2i
I
22
23
24
HRXn RVORTINO CO . mc.
507 C Succt. N E 25
WuhiniTon. O C 20OO2
application have to be amended a couple of times?
A I believe it was, yeah.
Q Those were all routine amendments, and —
A Everything was routine, including the delay.
Q When did North become aware, to your knowledge, of
the Institute for North-South Issues?
A In the fall of '85.
Q Are you sure we're talking about the fall of 1985,
and not some time earlier than that?
MR. KAPLAN: Let's go off the record a minute.
[Brief recess . )
MR. KAPLAN: Could I please have the last question.
[The record was read by the reporter.]
THE WITNESS: Yes.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q I believe you might have answered it just a moment
ago, but I'll ask it again. To your knowledge, when did
North become aware of the existence of the Institute for
North-South Issues?
A Around the same time, '85, that we received tax-
deductible status.
Q Did you ever discuss with North the use of the
Institute for North-South Issues for contra-assistance
payments?
A I don't recall discussing it. I know that it was
ilMOl AOOinrn
531
art93
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
' 19
20
21
22
23
24
■u-ER mromrma co . inc.
507 C Sum. N E ^5
Wuhingion. D C. 20002
SNWSSM
93
discussed, and I believe it was Mr. Miller who discussed it.
Q Do you recall when Miller might have discussed
that? When Miller did discuss that with North?
A It was fall of '85.
Q Is it possible, Mr. Gomez, that Miller discussed
the Institute for North-South Issues with North in February
of 1985?
A It's possible.
Q Do you know what the result of the discussions that
Miller and North had about the possible use of the Institute
to receive and distribute contra-assistance payments?
A What I know is that — what I know has been relayed
to me exclusively by Mr. Miller. No one else. It was my
understanding then, and it is my understanding now, that
Colonel North had received, or have been approached by someone
about a contribution from the Heritage Foundation. And the
Heritage Foundation was looking for a tax-deductible entity
to which to give the contribution.
And Colonel North was casting about for such an
entity, and in the context of inquiring of Richard Miller,
Miller volunteered that this entity existed.
At the time, we had not yet received certification,
and so I think it was dropped, briefly, and then it was taken
up again, shortly thereafter, two months later, perhaps.
Q what was your reaction to the use of the Institute
532
art94
UNCUSSIFIED
94
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mjLMH KcrotrnMo co.. mc.
)07 c Stim. N E 25
Vuhmpoa, D C 20002
to receive contra-assistance payments?
A I didn't like it. Well, I disagreed with the
notion that it should be used for that purpose because that
was not the purpose for which it was created, and I was also
looking forward to receiving tax-deductible status, and
getting on with the work that I had originally conceived for
the Institute, which is fundamentally to work in international
exchanges, to build understanding between the Third World and
the United States.
And I thought that doing that would harm the
Institute, and harm its ability to do what I hoped it would be
able to do all along.
Q Did you express these concerns to Mr. Miller?
A I did.
Q Do you recall whether he took any action on these
concerns?
A Well, at first, he accepted ray view, and the
subject came up later, and we discussed this, more or less
had the same kind of discussion, and he pointed out to me
that the contribution from the Heritage Foundation would be
intended for information purposes, political purposes within
the United States.
And that therefore, it could be interpreted as
being consistent with the objectives of the organization.
Q When you say the "contribution from the Heritage
1 you say the "contrimiiic
533
art95
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
itiu£;i Ktrotrma Co.. mc.
507 C ScTCTt. N E- 2 5
Tuhunton, D C 20002
«NCIASS!FIE!
95
Foundation", you're referring to a $100,000 contribution that
was made some time in the late fall of 19857
A Correct.
Q Didn't you believe Miller's explanation about the
use of the Heritage Foundation grant?
A I accepted it.
Q Did he tell you what the source of the Heritage
Foundation, or who the source of the Heritage Foundation
money was?
A . No. I thought it was Heritage money.
Q Did he tell you that the source of the Heritage
Foundation was a result of a referral to him by North?
A Yes.
Q How do you square this last answer with the
previous one?
MR. PRECUP: Wait a minute. Would you point out
the inconsistency you see in the two answers, so that we're
not guessing here.
MR. KAPLAN: I believe what I asked in the initial
question was what he understood the ultimate source of the
funds to be, and Mr. Gomez said the Heritage Foundation.
Then I believe that the next question was — and I'm
sure I'm not verbatim quoting--but the next question was, did
Mr. Gomez come to an understanding that the ultimate source
of the f und^ i/£i4 ^q;ne£in£. ^c>_becLtieen referred to Miller by
irHr*ni&(ffifftr
534
art96
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
nun mrotmNO co.. wc.
507 C Siren. N E 2 5
VutuncToa. D C 20002
96
North, and he responded yes. I am just trying to figure out
and to clarify, for the record, what Mr. Gomez's understanding
was as to who, or what, the source of that $100,000 from the
Heritage Foundation was.
MR. PRECUP: Well, I think what I missed in your
second question was "ultimate source." I'm not sure you
voiced those words, but the record will show.
THE WITNESS: I don't know what the "ultimate
source" was. All I know is that Mr. Miller heard about the
offer of- a contribution from the Heritage Foundation, from
Colonel North. At least that was my understanding at the
time.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Your understanding at the time was that North had
referred to Miller, the Heritage Foundation, as a source of
funds? ^
A Yes .
Q Did you understand what those funds were to be used
for, once they were received by the Institute for North-South
Issues?
A They were to be transferred to IC.
Q Upon transfer to IC, Inc., did you have an under-
standing as to what the use of the funds would be, beyond?
A Initially, it was not clear what the funds were,
but I was later--it was explained to me that they would be
iiLuiLftnnirirn
535
art97
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hujii nnm i—a co.. mc.
)07 C Stim s E ^-'
''••k.^wfoti D C 20002
yNClASSIRED
97
used for information, or political activities.
Q Do you know whether or not the Institute for North-
South Issues ever received that money from the Heritage
Foundation?
A Yes .
Q How much money, do you recall?
A I believe it was 100,000.
Q Do you know how much of that $100,000 was then
passed to IC, Inc.?
A ' I believe 80,000.
Q Do you know why only 80 of the $100,000 was passed
to IC, Inc.?
A I believe Mr. Miller reached an understanding either
with Heritage, or with Colonel North, about retaining 20,000
for the Institute.
Q When did you arrive at that understanding?
A I believe some time after the fact, but I can't be
any more precise than that.
Q Did you have any concerns about the Institute
having retained $20,000 of the money that was donated, at
least on the surface by the Heritage Foundation?
A No. The Institute, we had been struggling to try to
get it going, and keep it functioning, and were having a
director to operate it. It had been costing us money up to
that point, so a fee like that was welcomed.
uMmjiooicicn
536
irt98
WLASSIflEI
98
■ajLHi KvoirnNO CO.
i07 C SoKt. N E
Vislun(t°°. DC. 20001
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
'••^5
Q Did you learn, some time after the payment by the
Heritage Foundation to the Institute, that the money had
always been intended for contra-assistance efforts?
A No, I--not until perhaps after all of this became
public. I was really never certain where the monies ended
up, only that I had been assured that they were going to be
used for--again--political and informational activities.
MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark
as Deposition Exhibit No. 6 a copy of a Form 990 for 1985
that was filed by the Institute for North-South Issues with
the Internal Revenue Service.
[Whereupon, the document
referred to was marked
Gomez Deposition Exhibit
No. 6 for identification.]
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q I will ask you whether you have ever seen this
return before?
A Yes.
Q Did you review this return before it was filed?
A I don't think so.
Q I'm going to direct your attention —
A Maybe I did.
Q I'd like to direct your attention to the second
page of Exhibit 6 . i
m tmm
537
art99
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■LLfR nromna co . xc
)07 C SuCTt. N E 2 5
Vuhinron. O C 20002
mmi
'S
99
Yes. I did.
Q I'll ask you whether you recall having reviewed
Part 3, for instance, prior to the filing of the form?
A No. I believe I reviewed it after.
Q The information that describes the Heritage
Foundation grant that's found in Part 3A of this form, do you
recall who supplied that information?
A To best of my knowledge, it was Mr. Miller.
Q Did you ask Mr. Miller about the information that's
containe.d on the form?
A Yes .
Q What did you ask him, and what did he respond?
A I asked him if he could expand on this and tell me
more precisely what kind of information services were
involved in this, and he wasn't able to tell me. Only that he
said that the money had gone for different groups, relating
to political, public affairs, public-relations support
activities of the resistance.
Q To your knowledge, is the description contained in
Part 3A an accurate description of what you were told the
Heritage Foundation grant was used for?
A Yes.
Q I take it, it is fair to say, on the basis of your
testimony, that subsequent to public disclosure of the events
under investigation, b^ tJ"^° _Qym''Ji-*'°°° . you've come to a
Mpil^^im
538
artlOO
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mufn RcroimNa co , mc.
507 C Suctt. N E 25
Wuhtofton. D C 20002
iFIEI
100
different understanding as to what the Heritage Foundation
money was used for?
A I don't know what it was used for.
Q When did you first meet Adolfo Calero?
A I met him in early October 1983.
Q Did you meet him in the context of your respon-
sibilities at the U.S. Information Agency?
A Yes.
Q After you left the USIA, did you have a business or
professional relationship with Mr. Calero?
A Yeah, a business relationship, yes, beginning in
October of 1984.
Q Was that business relationship a part of the
services that IBC was conducting for Mr. Calero and others?
A Yes. It was a retainer relationship.
Q Can you just describe, briefly, what the substance
of the business relationship was.
A We were to assist him in writing speeches, articles,
arranging for public platforms, speeches. Monitoring the
media. Criticism of the resistance movement, anything
related to that in order to better prepare responses for him,
and also, things relating to the Government of Nicaragua.
Arranging interviews.
Q Was there a time in which you began to refer to Mr.
Calero by use of the name "Spark" or "Sparkplug"?
m\t\\ Aooinrn
539
artlOl
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLU nroxma co . mc.
107 C Sum N E 2 5
Wuhmfion. D C 20002
UNClASSifiEi
101
A Yes.
Q When did that begin?
A I don't have a precise recollection of when it
began, but Mr. Calero was introduced to us by Colonel North,
perhaps in September or October of 1984, and we were advised,
I think by Mr. North, that that was his nickname. I don't
believe the name, the term "code neune" was ever used, or
anything like that. Just something rather informal like,
"Well, we refer to him as Spark," or, "Sparkplug."
Q So this was not a name that you coined for Mr.
Calero?
A No.
Q Did Mr. Calero pay to IBC monthly retainers during
1984 and 1985?
A Yes, up through April or May.
Q Are you aware of the form that the monthly retainer
took?
A Yes .
Q Can you tell us what that form was.
A They were traveller's checks.
Q Did Mr. Calero give those checks to you or to Mr.
Miller, or both?
A Both.
Q What did you do with those traveller's checks when
you received them?
wmm
540
artl02
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mtxa mroiTTiNa co . mc.
)07 C Scrcrt. N E 2 5
Wuhmgran. DC 200O2
«m«!
102
A Any time I received them I turned them over to Mr.
Miller.
Q Did you ever sign traveller's checks yourself for
deposit into IBC's account, or for any other use?
A No.
Q I take it that the traveller's checks were given to
you by Mr. Calero in blank form?
A Yes.
Q You yourself never signed, or made out one of those
traveller's checks?
A Not to ray recollection.
Q Do you know why Calero paid you in traveller's
checks?
A It was never explained to me.
Q Did you ever ask him?
A No.
Q To your knowledge, did--
A Excuse me.
Q Go ahead.
A I have a sense that he did a lot of business in
traveller's checks because I either saw him using them for
other purposes, or, he may have said something to me about
using traveller's checks.
Q Did Colonel North ever give you any blank travel-
ler's checks?
UNCLASSIFii
541
artl03
103
MtULUt aVOKTWO CO
507 C SuCTI. N E
Wuhuftoo. O C 20002
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
•?5
A No.
Q To your knowledge, did Colonel North ever give
Miller any blank traveller's checks?
A No.
Q That is, Rich Miller.
A Yes.
Q Were you ever in the presence of Colonel North, or
were you ever told that North gave anyone blank traveller's
checks?
A . No .
Q You mentioned a bit earlier today that you had
State Department contracts that began shortly after your
retirement from the United States Information Agency.
How many such contracts were there?
A We had a succession of purchase orders beginning in
February 1984 which were made out initially to my name, but
in fact I, we turned over any payment to Mr. Miller. At that
time I was acting basically as his agent in dealing with the
State Department.
There were two, maybe three of these under my name,
and then I had, by the second purchase order agreement, I had
requested that they be made out to IBC, that IBC be the
contractor rather than myself because that in effect was what
the relationship was.
But because of administrative reasons, they failed
iiMm Aooinrn
542
artl04
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mxai KooirTwa co.. mc.
iOTCSmn. NE 25
Wuhinfua. D C 20002
UNCUSSIflf]
104
to do so, and it wasn't until perhaps the fourth, or so,
purchase order — third or fourth, I don't recall which — when
IBC first appeared.
Q Did IBC first appear at your request?
A Yes. It was my request after the first contract,
or first purchase order.
Q How were those contracts obtained?
A I met with the then executive officer, administra-
tive officer of the Office of Public Diplomacy, and we
discussed the range of services to be provided, and the
compensation for them, and it was agreed to do it on a short-
term basis of roughly two months each for an indefinite
period.
Q There came a point in time when at least one of the
series of contracts or purchase order was classified as a
secret contract. I think you mentioned that in your testimony
this morning.
Do you know why that contract was classified as a
secret contract?
A Yes. I have a version, an understanding--! 've seen
many since. I was under the impression that it was classified
secret by the State Department because of the sensitivity
both of what we were doing in handling visitors from Central
America, and because of the relationship that we and the
office had with Colonel North's office. There had been
IIMPI AOOinrn
543
artlOS
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
)07 C Sat«t. N E
Wuhmroo. DC. 20002
wmrnB
105
instances of refugees, political and otherwise, from Nicara-
gua, who, upon leaving Nicaragua, had found their families,
friends, and relatives, acquaintances, either persecuted,
questioned, arrested, tortured, jailed--what have you.
And some of the people that we were handling —
that's not the right word — I prefer assisting, after they
reached the United States, both from Nicaragua and from El
Salvador, had well-founded fears for their personal safety.
Q How did you arrive at the understanding that at
least part of the reason for the classification of these
contracts was because of the relationship between your office
and Colonel North's office?
A Because it was mentioned to me by both Mr. Miller
and people at the Office of Public Diplomacy.
Q Are you aware as to whether a particular individual
requested that the State Department contracts be classified
as secret?
A I believe--again, this is secondhand--I believe
that someone in the Office of Public Diplomacy, and I don't
remember whether it was Jonathan Miller or John Blacken,
recommended that it be classified.
Q Was Jonathan Miller aware of the relationship
between IBC and Colonel North's office?
A He knew that we were doing work beyond the scope of
the State Department, yes.
IINCLAJsSIFIFn
544
artioe
llNCUSSIfl
106
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
T7 10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HU^H ncroKTma co.. mc.
507 C Strett. N E ^ 5
Wuhmiton. D C J0002
Q Did Jonathan Miller know anything about--to your
knowledge- -did he know anything about the contra-funding
network among NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. and Colonel North?
A No.
Q Did the State Department contracts allow for
initial regular contact between you and Mr. Calero, Mr.
Rubelo and Mr. Cruz?
A They did not even mention contact, nor were we
encouraged to have contact. The contact with them really
came up .in the context of our dealings with Mr. North.
Q When did you first meet Jonathan Miller?
A when I started dealing with the Office of Public
Diplomacy.
Q Do you recall when that was?
A It was February of '84.
Q Was Jonathan Miller the State Department supervisor
of your contracts, or State Department contact for your
contracts with the Department?
A Yes, in addition to an executive officer.
Q The Committees have received evidence that show
that you had at least several meetings that included both
North and Jonathan Miller, and yourself.
Do you recall the substance of those meetings?
A They had to do with general assistance — public
affairs, and political activities, either conducted by or on
545
artl07
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■••J.OI nrortTma co . inc.
WJ C Sum, N E 2 5
WuhiOfioo. D C 20002
INCIASSIFI
107
behalf of the resistance leadership, and coordination of
programs between the Office of Public Diplomacy and North's
office.
Q You testified earlier, that to your knowledge,
Jonathan Miller did not know of the contra-funding network?
A That's correct.
Q Were you aware of any other dealings that Jonathan
Miller had with Colonel North relating to contra assistance?
A Yes.
Q Can you describe for us, to your knowledge, what
those other dealings were.
A They got into the realm of political counsel, and
even direction, or attempts to direct the relationships,
affect relationships among various of the resistance leaders,
particularly in their level of cooperation, or non-cooperation
vis-a-vis the Meskito Indians.
Q How did you become aware of those dealings between
North and Jonathan Miller?
A Well, in May of 1985, I believe it was May 29th--I
can't be certain. It could be May 1, but it was either the
beginning or the end of the month. I was asked to go to
Costa Rica in order to transmit back to Washington the
translation of a declaration, the so-called "Declaration of
San Jose" which the resistance leadership had worked out in
meetings in Costa Rica, and prior to getting to Costa Rica.
sta Rica, ana prior to g€
546
artl08
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
H
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HtASK RErORTINO CO . INC.
507 C Suect. N E ^ 5
WuhiA^ion. DC. 20002
Mmm
108
And this document was considered to be important
because it laid out the philosophy of the group as far as
their future emibitions, objectives for their country,
Nicaragua.
Mr. Miller was also in Costa Rica, and held
meetings at that time with one of the Meskito leaders,
Brooklyn Rivera, who was the head of one of the factions, and
I sat in on a meeting that Mr. Miller had with Mr. Rivera in
a hotel room, during which he attempted to encourage him to
join forces with the resistance and to sign the declaration.
Q who asked you to go to Costa Rica to interpret the
San Jose declaration?
A To translate.
Q To translate.
A The Office of Public Diplomacy.
Q Do you recall when you first met Rob Owen?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A The fall of 1984.
Q In what context did you first meet Rob Owen?
A I met him as an acquaintance of Colonel North.
Q Did North introduce you to Owen?
A I don't remember the first time I met him, whether
it was Colonel North who introduced me, or whether it was
Adolf o Calero.
iiNr.1 as!
547
artl09
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
injjK NootmNO CO.. mc.
50: C Seitti N E 2 5
Wuhufcoo. D C :0002
'!l
IFi
109
Q what did you understand Owen's relationship with
North to be?
A Well, at first it was very unclear. At times, it
looked like he was someone who was free-lancing, working
independently on behalf of the cause and providing services
gratis .
At other times it looked like he may have been in
the employ of the resistance, that is, the FDN, and still, at
other times, it looked like he was taking direction from
Colonel .North. And the precise nature of his role was not
clear to me until subsequent events.
Q What do you mean when you say "until subsequent
events "?
A Until the newspapers.
Q I just wanted to have you make that clear for the
record. Did you ever discuss with Owen the contra-funding
network that NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. and North were conducting?
A No.
Q Are you aware as to whether anyone else ever
discussed that contra-assistance network with Owen?
A No.
Q Were you aware that Owen was, for lack of a better
word, planted by North at the Nicaraguan humanitarian aid
office?
No, not at the time.
UNCiiSSIREO
548
artUO
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
m%AiM nrottTiNa co.. inc.
507 C Sum. N E ^ ^
Wuhufioo. D C 20001
LliUSSl!
110
Q Is there some time during which you did become
aware that Owen was serving in that capacity?
A When I read about it in the newspapers .
Q That is, some time after November of 1986?
A Yes.
Q Was there a time at which you became aware that
Owen also had an association with a group called the Institute
for Terrorism and Sub-National Conflict?
A Yes.
Q \ Do you recall when you first became aware of Owen^s
association with that organization?
A Again, I learned about it through the newspapers.
Q Do you recall — would you like to supplement your
previous answer?
A Yes. I didn't know, at the time, that Owen was
involved, but I had learned of the existence of an Institute-
-on Terrorism and Sub-National Conflict?
Q That's correct.
A I learned of its existence prior to November of '86.
Q Did you learn of its existence in connection with
signing a letter distributing some funds to that organization?
A No.
Q Do you recall having signed a letter, or having
been party to a Telex directly IC, Inc. to distribute $75,000
549
artlll
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mj-EK mroimNa co.. inc
)07 C Strm. N E ^ ^
WuhmroQ. C :ooo2
mimm
ill
A I recall it now, today, because I saw it on one of
the exhibits that you showed me, but I either did not see it,
or it did not register at the time that I signed the document
on which those words appear.
What made me recall the existence of the Institute
was something else I read in the press prior to November 1986
about such an organization. It was in the context of
television, or media, dealing with the subject of terrorism.
Q Do you know Father Tom Dowling?
A I have met him and seen him.
Q Have you ever talked to him?
A Not substantively.
Q Do you recall IBC and IC, Inc. having made payments
to a group called the Latin American Strategic Studies
Institute?
A Yes .
Q Do you know who directs that Institute?
A Father Dowling, as far a I know.
Q Did you have any understanding at the time, that
the payments from IBC and IC, Inc. were mpde, as to what the |^
purpose of those p«Ffinents were to be? ^^
A My understanding was that they were for political
activities .
Q How did you arrive at that--I'm sorry.
A Public affairs. Because I knew of the, something of
550
artll2
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MLLD* RVOimNa CO.. IHC.
107 C Sum, N E 2 5
Wuhuiroo. D C JOOOJ
112
the Institute, and some of the work that had been done by it
in support of the FDN.
Q Did you ever discuss with Dowling the provision of
assistance to the contras through what we've been referring
to today as the contra-assistance network?
A I have never had a substantive conversation with
Father Dowling.
Q Do you know whether anyone else ever told him of the
existence of this contra-assistance network?
A No.
Q Do you know an individual neuned Richard Pena?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell me when you first met Mr. Pena.
A I believe he and I had lunch when he was still
working on the Hill. I don't remember the time.
Q Do you recall what year?
A It was in 1985. '84 or '85.
Q Do you recall the reason why you had lunch with Mr.
Pena?
A Well, I had heard of him, and we had spoken on the
phone in regard to a visitor from Guatemala, I believe, and I
knew that he was--the visitor from Guatemala was interested
in meeting with Congressman Wright. And so I thought that
because Pena was a fellow Hispanic, and a Texan, that he
could be helpful to me.
551
artll3
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mjHK nromma co.. inc.
507 C Siren. N E ^ -'
Washiofion. D C :0002
UNCLASSIHEO
113
And I know that this, what I just described took
place. whether that was the first contact with Richard Pena,
I'm not certain. I believe it was.
Q Did you have any subsequent dealings with Mr. Pena?
A Yes. I saw him at an American Council for Young
Political Leaders dinner in June, or so, of 1986, and since
he left his employment on Capitol Hill and joined a consulting
firm, I've seen him two or three times.
Q Have you had any business dealings with Mr. Pena?
A . We have discussed business opportunities, business
proposals, but never--they were never formalized.
Q Did any of those business proposals concern the
provision of lethal supplies to the contras?
A No. .
Q Are you aware that in August of 1986, that Mr. Pena
wrote a letter to World Affairs Counselors, Inc. enclosing a
list of lethal supplies and their availability, intended for
the contras? .i
A No. ■ ■■>
Q Have you ever had any contact with Richard Secord?
A No.
Q Have you ever had any contact relating to contra
assistance with Vice President Bush?
A No .
Q Have you ever had any contact relating to contra
552
artll4
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
NU-DI WPORTWa CO . INC.
)07 C Stre«. N E 2 5
Washio|i°°. D C JOOOl
ONCUSSIRIO
114
assistance with Donald Gregg?
A No.
Q The same question with respect to Felix Rodriguez.
A No.
Q Do you recall, did you travel to Panama in November
of 1986?
A
Q
A
Q
A
Yes.
Did you travel with Mr. Miller?
Yes .
Can you tell me what the purpose of that trip was.
It was to confer with a client on some public
affairs promotional activities.
Q Did your business with that client have anything to
do with providing assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance?
A No.
Q Did the client make a payment to you, or Mr.
Miller, while you were there?
A Yes.
Was that payment a retainer of some sort?
It was a monthly fee, yes, or, more than a month.
Q
A
I forget
Q
A
Q
Was the payment made in cash?
Yes.
Did Mr. Miller report, to your knowledge, that cash
payment on a Treasury form as Mfl.s-^jinfluired?
luim noC'lOcii
553
artllS
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLDi nroKTvta co.. me.
i07 C SiretT N E 2 5
Wulun(<on. D C 20002
115
A Yes. We went through the airport together, and I
waited for him while he did it.
Q Is that a client whom you have continued to have
contact with since November of 1986?
A The contract was suspended in December, and then
renewed this spring.
Q Was it unusual for that client to have paid you in
cash?
A We didn't like the idea of being paid in cash.
Q . Do you know why the cash payment was made?
A Yes. Because they were late in payment. We'd been
told that we were going to be paid when we got there, and we
were ready to go the next day, had not been paid, and we
insisted on being paid. So he arranged to have us paid in
cash.
Q When was your last contact with Colonel North?
A August of 1986.
Q Do you recall the substance of that contact?
A Yes. I went to see him. I had told him that I was
going to be — I was expecting to becoming involved in the
client relationship in Panama, and I wanted to know whether
there was anything that he could tell me about the relation-
ship that would suggest that I not do it.
Q Was this the|Mni«^ii*pt^iA^Y jrpH' iC^^sited in
November of 1986? UrluLlwO ! f ! Lli
554
artllS
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
2
2
2
23
24
■ujM *oom«ia CO., hc.
507CSut»t. NE 25
Vuhinftca. C. 20002
A Ygs.
Q Why did you think, at the time, that is, in August
of 1986, that Colonel North would be able to provide you with
any useful information about that potential client relation-
ship?
A Just because of his access to information.
Q Did Colonel North do anything in order to respond
to your question?
A No. It was a very, very brief meeting. A few
minutes .^
Q Was there any follow-up on his part?
A No.
Q What did he in fact tell you about that potential
client relationship?
A He said he saw no reason not to take it.
Q Why were you concerned about taking on that client
relationship?
A Because of relationships between Panama and the
rest of Central America
was basically a conversation based on friendship ar
confidence .
Q Were you aware of any money or other items of value
that were given to North, or to his family, during your
555
artll?
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■IXin IKMMmM CO . HC.
507 C Stitti N E 2 5
Vuhin|TO<i O C 20002
'^^»^.5fiS :1 fi(r??v---^i
iJiV
mil
117
relationship with him?
A No.
MR. PRECUP: That's a very broad question. Given
by whom? And he earned a salary.
THE WITNESS: I'm aware of things that were reported
in the press, but during the time that I was dealing with
him, no.
MR. KAPLAN: My question meant to exclude salary,
and the like. We all consider our salaries from the Govern-
ment to.be a gift.
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q When was the last time you had any contact with Mr.
Channell?
A I guess about a year ago. More than a year ago.
August, when we severed our relationship.
Q Did Channell not retain IBC at some point toward
the end of last year, that is, December of 1986, to do some
media relations for NEPL?
A I don't know the nature of the work that was being
done. That could have been part of a media relations, yes.
Q But I take it you didn't have any contact with
Channell in connection with that relationship?
A None .
Q Were the services performed by IBC on NEPL's
behalf, pursuant to that relationship, all conducted by Mr.
I ^ , . . .»■, s n i'i iS I p-'i if" ITS
556
artllf
mumm
118
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■uffl mrowma co.. mc.
)C7 C Sum. N E 2 5
Wukuiion. D C 20002
Miller?
A Yes.
Q Is there any particular reason as to why you didn't
participate in those services being performed by IBC?
A I don't recall, exactly, how it was--how it
evolved, only that I had other things to do, and Mr. Miller
took the lead on that. I felt comfortable with that arrange-
ment.
Q When was your last contact with Dan Conrad?
A . The same.
Q Same time. Do you —
A Wait a minute. I think we had a meeting, or he had
a meeting with Mr. Miller in the fall of '86, at which time
he discussed some ideas for assisting the Institute. Just
some general concepts .
Q Which Institute are you referring to?
A Institute for North-South Issues.
Q Do you recall the substance of your last contact
with Channell?
A No. See, I had phased down my involvement with
Channell beginning in early 1986, so I had limited contact
with him. I worked on the SOI program in the spring of '86,
and, at that time had regular contact with him. But as far
as other issues, particularly the Central American Freedom
Program, I did not deal with him.
557
artll9
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■iixiii ntfOKTmo CO.. mc.
>0? C Siren. N E 2 5
Wuhioitos. D C 20002
119
I saw him, and attended a few meetings, but the
last substantive meeting, or occasion when I saw him, was
probably in July or August, and by that time Mr. Miller was
dealing with him almost on an exclusive basis.
Q You mentioned a bit earlier that you had some
initial dealings with the fake Saudi prince al-Massoudi. When
did your contact with al-Massoudi stop, and why?
A It stopped when he and Mr. Miller left for Europe.
It didn't stop because he wasn't around anymore. The contact
prior to that time was incidental. In other words, he might
appear in the office and I would say hello, or to be kind, to
keep him occupied, I had lunch with him once, and that's it. '
Q Did you have any misgivings about the prince early
on?
A I did.
Q Did you express those misgivings to Miller?
A Yes. We both, had raisgiviags, and Mr. Miller
conducted extensive research on his majesty,, his highness,
and did a lot of checking, and so much of it squared that he
was at least sufficiently persuaded to continue to do
business with him.
Q Did you have any contact with Colonel North about
al-Massoudi?
A We may have had a telephone call, or the subject
may have come up at a meeting, but no extended contact. That
558
artl20
yNCUSSIFIEI
120
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
miMk Riponmia co.. imc.
507 C Strm. N E '5
Wuhiniton. D C 20002
was largely in the hands of Mr. Miller.
Q Were you involved at all in the FBI investigation
of al-Massoudi some time later in 1985 and 1986?
A No.
MR. KAPLAN: Off the record for a minute.
[Discussion off the record.]
BY MR. KAPLAN:
Q Did you have any knowledge of the Iranian arms
sales prior to public disclosure of those sales in late 1986?
A No.
Q Did you have, and do you have, any knowledge of any
proceeds from those sales being used for contra assistance
prior to public disclosure of that event in November of 1986?
A No.
Q Do you have any knowledge of any proceeds from
those sales making their way into either NEPL or IBC at any
time?
A I have read the allegations in the press. That's
all.
Q But I take it you don't have any knowledge of your
own, that money from the arms sales to Iran made their way
into either Mr. Channell's organizations, or any of yours or
Mr. Miller's organizations?
A That's correct.
Q Do you know anything about the business dealings of
mini AHAirirr^
559
artl21
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UMAX* HCPOfmNO CO . INC.
)07 C Stit^t S E ^ -■
VuhiAfloa D C 20002
yNClASSIFlEO
121
the Goodman Agency?
A Only as they relate to the work that was perfonned
on behalf of Mr. Channell.
Q Did you deal with the Goodman Agency in connection
with that work?
A Yes.
Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether any proceeds
from the arms sales made their way into the Goodman Agency?
A No. _
Q Did you have any knowledge, prior to public
disclosure in late 1986, of any, what's been termed "third
country solicitations" for contra assistance?
A No, although I had heard and read some press
allegations to the effect that other countries were providing
assistance to the cause.
Q Did you have any direct knowledge, other than what
you have read in the press of other countries, providing
assistance to the cause?
A No.
Q Did you have any knowledge of the Sultan of Brunei
having made a contribution of $100,000 to the resistance in
early 1985?
A No.
Q Do you recall a meeting in Colonel North's off ice-
in February of 1985 with Otto Reich, Jonathan Miller,
iitiAi RHoinrn
560
artl22
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
yLun Rtpotmio co., mc.
507 C ScTCTt, N E 2 5
Wishin(nx>. DC 10002
ma
122
yourself, and Walt Raymond, in which among other things the
Nicaraguan refugee fund dinner was discussed?
A I don't.
Q Would it refresh your recollection if I told you
that a new board for that fund was also discussed at that
meeting including members Louis Aquiar, Woody Jenkins,
possibly a Dupont, and one other individual?
A No.
Q So I take it that it doesn't refresh your recollec-
tion as .to whether you ever engaged in a conversation or
meeting with the individuals that I've mentioned before,
either collectively, or alone, about a $100,000 contribution
by the Sultan of Brunei to the resistance?
A Nothing that you've said has refreshed my recollec-
tion. There is no recollection.
Q Prior to public disclosure in late '86, did you have
any knowledge of hostage-rescue efforts that were being
conducted, either by or on behalf of the United States
Government, relating to the hostages that were being held in
Lebanon?
A I had no precise knowledge of any hostage efforts,
hostage-rescue efforts, although Colonel North sometimes
relayed his great concern over the plight of the hostages and
the situation in the Middle East.
Q Were you or Mr. Miller ever asked to provide money
561
hwsl23
s * » 3 ,"•:
rifco
123
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
ULl.£ft RCrOfmNO CO . IMC.
lir^iicci N E 2 5
Wuhiofion. D C 20002
to extricate the hostages?
A I was not asked to provide any money.
Q Do you know whether Miller was ever asked to
provide money to aid in efforts to extricate the hostages?
A I have no recollection of any such request.
Q Do you recall any discussions that Mr. Miller had
with Al-Massoudi about efforts to extricate the hostages
being held in Lebanon?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us what the substance of those
conversations was?
A This is secondhand from Mr. Miller. And, according
to Mr. Miller, Mr. A-Massoudi claimed to have relationships
with people in Saudi Arabia and perhaps beyond Saudi Arabia,
that could feasibly be helpful in securing the release of the
hostages. And his accounts were sufficiently credible to Mr.
Miller to lead Mr. Miller to entertain proposals from Mr. Al-
Massoudi about efforts to secure their release. They must
have discussed it at some length. That's the extent of my
knowledge.
MR. KAPLAN: I have no further questions. I want
to thank you for your cooperation today.
Could we go off the record for a moment?
[Brief discussion off the record.]
EXAMINATION BY COUti^El^ SDR
562
hwsl24
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
inujDi nronma co.. hc
507 C imtx. N E 25
Wuhmtioa. D C 20002
mil
124
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE
BY MR. BUCK!
Q Mr. Gomez, have you ever seen Colonel North's slide
show, the famous slide show?
A Yes, several times.
Q In your opinion, was it accurate?
A In some respects I can say that it was accurate
because I have been a witness to some of the things described
in his show. In other instances, I have no way to assess his
accuracy.
Q Did you take some of the photographs that were used
in the slide show?
A Yes.
when did you take those photographs?
February 1985.
And where did you take them?
I n^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l Ano t h e r
town, a refugee settlement villag^^^^^^^^^^K and in|
[the main contra base.
Q What were the circumstances surrounding the trip
that you took down there? Did you take it for that purpose
or--
A No. I took it to assess the status of the refugees,
The Office of Public Diplomacy believed that the plight and
the number of the refugees was grossly ignored, people were
Q
A
Q
A
563
hwsl25
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■•J.DI HCrOdTMO CO.. MC.
507 C SotCT, N E 25
WuhiOftoa. D C. 20002
'Mmmm
125
unaware of it in the United States, and felt that something
should be done about it. And so I was asked to look at the
refugee status.
When I told Colonel North that I would be going
down there, he suggested that I arrange to go to the main
camp as well to take pictures there as well. And there were
many refugees in and around the camp as well. So that
coincided with the main purpose of my visit.
Q Approximately how many photographs did you give
Colonel North?
A I gave him the undeveloped rolls of film, perhaps
three rolls--four rolls.
Q Sixty or 70, in that area?
A Yes.
Q How many did he use in his slide show?
A There were various slide shows. He inserted them
and took them out according to audiences and circumstances
and so on. So I would say maybe a dozen overall.
Q When did you give these slides to Colonel North, or
the pictures to Colonel North?
A As soon as I returned from my trip.
Q Which was?
A It was about a three- or four-day trip so it would
have been in early February or mid-February.
Q Do you know what purpose Colonel North developed
iiAiAi ■AitPrei*?^
564
hwsl26
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
WLUR ISmMITWa CO.. MC
507 C Sara. N E 25
Viduafua. D C 20002
*tef/l
126
the slide show for?
A Yes, I know the purpose that he related to me why
he wanted the pictures . And he wanted to portray the
difficult circumstances under which the resistance was
operating and living at the time, and refugees as well, their
needs .
He said take pictures. He didn't order me, but he
said I would like to have pictures of anything you can see,
whatever you see.
Q , I'm sorry, I forgot, what was the time frame
again? What was the date of the trip?
A February.
Q Of 1985?
A 1985.
Q Was this before he met Carl Channell, to your
knowledge?
A I don't remember when he first met Mr. Channell.
Q Is it fair to say that, to your knowledge, the sole
reason Colonel North developed the slide show was not for
fundraising purposes?
A I could not say that because he never told me why
he developed the slide show.
Q It had to do with his concern for refugees though
and not —
A My part of it, yes, was concern about the status of
mini Aoosnnn
565
hwsl27
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HU-EX nromnta co . inc.
507 C Suerc. N E 2 5
Wishmfion. C 2000i
fwsflfe
127
the situation, the conditions under which they were surviving.
Q Do you know approximately how many times Colonel
•'orth used his slide show?
A I only know about the slides that he showed to
groups that I was involved with in connection with Mr.
Channell, and that was maybe five or six.
Q During your contacts with Mr. Channell 's organiza-
tions and Colonel North, were you ever present when Colonel
North solicited funds from any of Mr. Channell 's contributors?
A . Yes .
Q How would you describe Colonel North's role in
relation to Mr. Channell 's contributors?
A His role was one of explaining the geopolitical
circumstances, geostrategic circumstances, of Central America
and implications of the Soviet presence in Nicaragua, Soviet-
Cuban presence, and describing what that means in terms of
U.S. national interest.
Q Were there any other roles that he filled?
A No. He portrayed the resistance as a noble group,
well-intentioned group, democratically oriented, and the
Sandinistas as the devil incarnate.
Q Was that accurate?
A Those are my words, but as--
Q Well, I'll accept them as your words.
At the time that Mr. Roberts allegedly used the
566
hwsl28
\mim
128
XXX
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
iMjuut RfmHTwa CO.. mc
)07 C Soret. N E 2 5
Wishuiftori. D C 20002
words to describe IBC as the White House outside the White
House, are you aware of President Reagan having endorsed IBC
as a White House outside the White House?
A I've never heard of such an endorsement.
Q Have you heard of an endorsement by anybody in the
White House of IBC during that time period?
A No.
MR. BUCK: I have no further questions. Thank you.
MR. KAPLAN: Off the record.
[Brief recess . ]
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Gomez, you stated earlier that you served for
19 years and 10 months as a USIA employee.
Why did you retire from the USIA, or did you
retire--or did you resign?
A I retired. In 1980 the Congress passed the Foreign
Service Reform Act, which had a three-year grace period for
people to convert to Senior Foreign Service or Civil Service,
or leave.
The requirement to convert was challenged by a
State Department officer, also at Grade 2 which I was, and he
won his case. And the court ruled that those in that
category who so desired should have the option to retire
567
hwsl29
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■LLOt ntfcwma co , mc.
>07 C Sum. N E 2 5
Wajhiliro°' O C 20002
yNCLASSIFIED
129
early with an annuity.
The option was applicable to a very narrow range of
officers for whom early retirement was an attractive course
in that one had to have senior rank, which I had, still be
sufficiently young to be credible as a beginning second-
career person and, third, , to have sufficient years in to
make the annuity worthwhile. And I met all those conditions.
Third, at the time, I was completing what would
have been a normal tour of duty in Washington, and was
actively being considered for assignment overseas again, and
was discussing such assignments with my wife. They included
Africa, where we had been, and our experiences in Africa and
Haiti were very unpleasant. And for a variety of reasons, I
did not want to go overseas again, particularly if it
included Africa and not going with my family. Our children
were in high school.
So it's one of those foreign service experiences,
when the opportunity arose to leave early, I decided to take
it.
MR. KAPLAN: Can we go off the record?
[Briefly off the record.]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q You stated, in response to one of Mr. Kaplan's
earlier questions, that all of the contracts that you had
with the State Department, even those that were in your name,
568
hwsl30
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
uufii nrcmma co.. mc.
507 C Sum. N E. 25
Washinitoa. D C 2000!
UNCLASSIFIED
130
were really contracts with both you and Rich MiJler. I
believe you used the term you were an agent for Rich Miller.
A Yes .
Q Why were you acting in that capacity? Why weren't
both of you on the contract and why wasn't the contract with
IBC?
A Because, in our understanding, when we first
established the relationship, it was agreed that I would be a
consultant to him. I did not have a salary as such. I was
to be compensated on the basis of our income. And after the
first purchase order was signed, and it came in my name and
everything was handled in my name as an individual, we
discussed it and we agreed that it should be an IBC purchase
order rather than in my name, my individual name. And we
requested that it so be done.
But it wasn't done until two or three purchase
orders later.
Q when did you first begin to discuss this arrange-
ment with Rich Miller, the arrangement of your becoming a
consultant?
A I think around November of 1983 as I began to
explore options for employment post-USIA. November or
December .
Q You were exploring in the fall of 1983 the pos-
sibility of a contract with AID, is that correct?
569
hws 131
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UtXtM NVOOTIMO CO . MC.
lO'CSucn. NE 2 5
Wuhiflfton. D C 20OO2
UNMSSiFitl
131
A No, I don't think it's correct.
[Pause]
Q Do you remember discussing your future employment
with the counselor of USIA in the fall of 1983?
A Yes.
Q Who was the counselor at that time?
A I don't remember. If you mentioned the name, I'm
sure I can recall. It could have been Jack--oh, he just
died, cancer.
MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this Gomez Exhibit No. 7.
[The document referred to was i
marked for identification as
Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 7.]i
BY MR. OLIVER: v_ ''
Q That is a memorandum from Frank Gomez to the
counselor--I assume that's the counselor at USIA since you
were an employee there at that time--dated September 30, 1983.
A I'm not done reviewing it yet. So identify it as
you will.
Q The subject is "Support for Central American
Training Proposal."
I would like to ask the witness to examine this
document, and ask you if this refreshes your recollection
about the discussions of an AID contract.
570
hws 132
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HILLfn REPORTINO CO . INC.
507 C Succt. N E 2 5
Waahmgton. DC. 20002
UNCLASSIFI
r
132
A I know I wrote — I don't remember who the counselor
was .
Q Did you write a proposal for an AID Central
American training proposal?
A I don't recall right now.
Q May I see the document for just a moment?
Do you recall any response from the counselor to
that memorandum?
A No, I don't.
[Pause]
Q Do you recall any discussions with John Scafe in the
Office of the Special Advisor of the Secretary on Central
America about a Central American training proposal in the
fall of 1983?
A Yes .
Q What do you recall about those discussions?
A Well, there was something that had come up in an
interagency context dealing with Central America, and the
agency, USIA, was interested in developing programs to
improve the capability of Central American, particularly
Salvadoran, spokespersons because the situation in El Salvador
vis-a-vis the press and human rights and the military was
very serious. And there were a lot of discussions going on
about that time, rather f reef lowing discussions, almost like
brainstorming, what can we do, this sort of thing.
571
hws 133
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■LUH MErOKTMO CO.. MC.
507 C Sutet. N E 2 5
Wailun(toci D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIEO
133
And I was asked to produce a couple of studies or
documents or recommendations how might I be used later, what I
could the agency do immediately to address those problems. |
Q We were discussing this Central American training
proposal and you indicated that there have been interagency
discussion. Did you sit in on this interagency discussion?
A Probably not.
Q How did you know about it?
A Through the bureaucratic channels, my superiors,
others in the Agency, and USIA, who were dealing with this as
one of the priority issues.
Q Do you know what the interagency group that was
discussing it was called?
A No . I never sat in at that point. I was not in a
position that required me to deal with things on a geographic
basis and so I learned about such discussions from those who
were dealing with things on a geographic basis. My respon-
sibilities were fundamentally world-wide, at the time. Broad
issues .
Q Have you discussed the six or seven contracts that
you or IBC had at the State Department with the Inspector
General?
A Yes.
Q Did you tell the Inspector General, at the time,
that you were acting as an agent for Rich Miller on those
iumi Aooinrn
572
clgl34
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mm MvaMTiNa co.. inc.
)07 C Su«t. N E 25
Wuhioitoo. D C Z0002
134
early contracts?
A I didn't use those words, but I told him that I
was a consultant to Mr. Miller and that shortly after
initiating the first purchase order, we agreed that the rest
should be in IBC's name. Mr. Miller was my employer.
Q Did Mr. Miller have anything to do with the
performance of those contracts that were in your name?
A Yes, we worked together on them. I did most of the
work, however, but we conferred regularly on them.
Q . As a principle, I believe you were the president for
the Institute for North South Issues, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Were you the chief executive officer —
A No.
Q Of that organization?
A No, the organization never really got started in
the way we hoped it would function and the administrative
matters relating to it were minimal at the outset. I did
deal with the attorneys in efforts to incorporate, to
register in the District of Columbia and to get IRS status.
Q From which Government agencies did INSI receive
contracts?
A The only agencies for which we provided services
were the NED and USIA, I believe.
Q Did you also have a contract with the Department of
iitim wir rirn
573
clgl35
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
>nx£K n^omTHQ co . nc.
iO' C Streti. N E 25
Wuhinfioo. D C 20002
Ui^L/iooirihD
135
State?
A We had a contract, yes, for roughly a month--
September of 1985.
Q What was the purpose of that contract?
A The Office of Public Diplomacy had been very eager,
for many months, to improve its distribution system and had
wanted us, going back to the Fall of the previous year, to
assist them with it. Nothing happened until the Summer of
1985, at which time a series of meetings took place and they
asked u§ to take on a new task, which was to evaluate the
present problem, devise a new system, and put it in place.
All this took place about in--the last meetings--in
late August and they said, well, can we add something to your
contract now, that will cover this additional work. That was
deemed to be rather awkward at the time since we were just
completing a fiscal year. It was too early to begin for the
next fiscal year so they looked for a mechanism whereby we
could get paid, or the services could be provided, and
someone could get paid for providing those services, without
adding to the existing IBC contract. It was selected.
Q So you had two simultaneous contracts?
MR. PRECUP: Wait a minute. I don't think the
witness has stated that, Mr. Oliver.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Did the_ cor^tj^c^t^w^^JlUfij(BifH concurrently with an
likT^tWMiClcn
574
clgl36
UNCUSSiFlED
136
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hiufii nroRTwa co.. inc.
J07 C SiTCTt. N E 2 5
Vashinpoo. D C 20002
existing with IBC with the Department of State?
A With two companies, yes.
Q And you and Rich Miller were the principals on both
of those contracts?
A I was the principal for the contract on INSI and
Mr. Miller was the principal for the contract at State
Department .
Q They were both State Department contracts?
A Yes .
Q Did you recommend a change in the distribution
system, as a result of that one-month contract?
A The one-month contract was designed to evaluate the
existing system, or lack thereof, and to make specific
recommendations and those recommendations were made.
Q And then thereafter, did IBC enter into a contract
to perform distribution for the Department of State?
A Yes and to set up the system.
Q Did you recommend that in the INSI report?
A I don't recall that we recommended it specifically,
that IBC get a contract. We recommended certain steps be
taken and we pointed out some of the shortcomings in the
existing system.
Q The contracts that you had with USIA for INSI, were
those arranged by you or by Mr. Miller?
By me.
m ^sm^
575
clgl37
yNClASSIFlEO
137
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
uufii nrotrrma co . mc.
)0- C Sutti. N E 2 5
WuhiCfToa. D C 20002
Q But Mr. Miller was the principal on those contracts
also?
A No. I was for INSI.
Q For INSI. And did he have any participation in the
performance of those contracts?
A No.
Q Did Mr- Miller have any participation in the
performance of the contracts with NED?
A No.
Q Was the Office of Latin American Public Diplomacy
involved, in any way, in your application or in your securing
of contracts with USIA or with NED?
A No.
Q Was the White House or the National Security
Council involved in any way?
A No.
Q I'd like to go back, if I can for a moment, to the j
I
discussion you had earlier with Mr. Kaplan about the Heritage
Foundation grant and I would like to ask the reporter to |
mark, as Gomez Exhibit 8, a group of documents which relate
to the Heritage Foundation grant to the Institute for North
South Issues. The top page is a letter dated September 12,
1985, from the Institute for North South Issues to Dr. Edwin
Feulner, and is signed by Rich Miller.
(The documents referred to were
m mm^
576
clgl38
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
138
marked for identification as
Gomez Exhibit No. 8.)
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q I'd like to ask you to examine the first two pages
of that exhibit, Mr. Gomez, and tell me if you recall that
proposal, if you have ever seen that proposal before.
A
Q
A
Q
A
written.
The first two pages?
The first two pages?
Yes .
Have you seen that document before?
I've seen it, after the fact, not when it was
577
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mujn RtroirnNa CO.. mc
507CSuT»t NE 2 5
VuhmfTon. D C 20002
Q You did not participate in the preparation of this
document in any way?
A No.
Q when did you first see this document?
A I believe it was later, when Mr. Miller approached
me about making arrangements to transfer funds. By later, I
mean perhaps, October-November.
Q October-November of 1985?
A Yes .
Q Did INSI, in fact, perform these functions for
return for the 3100,000 grant?
A Not directly. I know nothing relating to these
services .
IINP.! i'SV^
578
clgl39
^NCLASSIREO
139
1 Q Well, the proposal indicates that the Institute
2 will provide all conference arrangements. It seems to
3 indicate that you will perform this function and you indicate
4 that you're prepared to begin immediately on the program. It
5 doesn't indicate that anyone else is going to perform these
6 services .
7 A That's right.
8 Q Did anyone else perform these services?
9 A I can't be certain that no one performed the
10 services because I don't know what the final disposition of
11 the resources was.
579
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mm noowTwo co.. mc.
50' C SoCTi N E 2 5
Wuhinrori. D C '0OO2
Q Do you have any information that these services
were ever performed?
A No.
Q Would you turn to the third page of this exhibit,
which is a letter dated October 15, 1985, to Mr. Richard
Miller from Edwin Feulner? That letter indicates that they
are forwarding a check in the amount of $100,000, as requested
in your letter-
A Yes .
Q And says that they would appreciate receiving
reports from you as to the uses to which these funds have
been put. It also asks for a tax-exempt letter and it also
indicates that they assume that these funds will be used in
your 501(c) ( 3) . Were
accordance with the stated^jjj
mniwimn
580
clgl40
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UKltR RCrOimHO CO., mc.
507 C SciCTi, N E 2 5
Wajhijipon. O C 20002
UNCLASSIFIEO
140
you a 501(c)(3) at that time?
A No.
Q Did you see this letter at the time it came in?
A I can't give you a precise answer whether I saw it
at the time that it came in or later. I remember discussing
the matter orally with Mr. Miller because I dealt with no one
at the Heritage Foundation.
MR. PRECUP: At about the time it was sent?
THE WITNESS: At this time, yes.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Did Mr- Miller inform you that INSI had received a
$100,000 grant from the Heritage Foundation?
A He informed me that one was coming and then when it
was received, I learned about it.
Q When he told you that one was coming, did he tell
you what it was for?
A Yes.
Q What did he tell you it was for?
A He said it was to conduct information programs,
political programs and activities, in support of the Nicara-
guan resistance.
Q when you say political programs, what do you mean?
A That's what he told me. I presume it means
providing for expenses for public affairs activities,
platforms, conferences, seminars, meetings, travel.
I
581
clgl41
M . ^K^ *►.
141
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
M»±tK nrotrnta co.. mc.
507 CScitCT, N E 25
Vashinfton. D C 20002
Q Did the proposal that you just examine on pages 1
and 2, indicate, in any way, that this program will be to
support the democratic resistance in Nicaragua?
A You say in my reading of it?
Q Yes .
A Not in so many words, but it does refer to Central
America and U.S. foreign and economic policy, the perceptions
of Central Americans.
Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Feulner was ever
informed that you were not a 501(c)(3) organization?
MR. PRECUP: I have to object to that because, if
you will note, the letter that is a part of this exhibit, Mr.
Oliver, you will see that the advanced ruling period begins
on the date of inception of the organization, which is quite
a bit antedated, the date of the letter itself. It certainly
takes time for the IRS to come through with the final letter,
but can't state that this is retroactive.
MR. OLIVER: Counsel, I had just asked the witness
earlier whether or not they were a 501(c)(3) organization at
the time that they received this grant and his answer was no.
MR. PRECUP: Yes, but the witness, as you know, is
not a tax attorney or an attorney at all so please, don't get
hung up on his lack of knowledge of tax laws. The letter
speaks for itself and it's part of your exhibit.
BY MR. OLIVER:
582
clgl42
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UlUfR RCrORTINO CO.. INC.
507 C Sticet. N E 2 5
Vishington. D C 20002
;s!
142
Q Do you know whether or not your organization, INSI, |
was a 501(c)(3) at the time it received this grant? j
A I don't know exactly when the grant was received
and exactly what day the Institute became a 501(c)(3).
Q Why did you answer the question a moment ago in the
negative?
A Because I was looking at this date, September 12,
1985, which, I believe, your question referred to the
proposal and my understanding, at that time, September 12,
1985, was that we had not yet received the response from IRS.
Q If you would turn to page 4 of this exhibit, which
is a letter from the Institute for North South Issues to Dr.
Feulner, signed by you, I believe. Is that your signature?
A Yes.
Q Do you recall the circumstances surrounding this
letter?
A Somewhat .
Q At the time you sent this letter, did you attempt
to determine what had been done on the grant proposal?
A Yes. I asked Mr. Miller how these funds were used
and he responded that they were transferred to, I believe,
the Strategic Studies Institute or — I don't know the exact
name of the organization--which, in turn, carried out public
information and other political activities.
Q In the letter, you say that "we are compiling
ni!iy_fliLOirirn
583
clgl43
UNCLASSIFIE!
143
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HtXU) KCPOKTMO CO . INC
507 C Sura. N E. 25
WuhtnfTon. D C 20002
r2n21 S4A.MM
several final information pieces."
A Yes.
Q Did you compile those information pieces?
A Mr. Miller may have compiled them. I did not.
Q Why did you say "we"? |
i
A I used the "we" in the context of the organization. :
This letter was drafted by Mr. Miller and presented to me for I
my signature.
Q Why didn't he sign the letter?
A I don't know.
Q What prompted the letter in May of 1986?
A I don't know, other than his request for informa-
tion.
Q You indicate in the letter that the request had
been some six months prior to this time.
A Yes.
Q What was the cause of the delay?
A I don't know.
Q I believe you indicated earlier that the treatment
of this $100,000 grant was that a $20,000 administrative fee
was taken out by INSI and then approximately $80,000 — I
believe that was the figure you recall — was sent to the IC
account in the Cayman Islands, is that correct?
A That's correct.
Q Did Colonel North direct you to spend that money
IIMO! Aoc-socn
584
clgl44
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
H
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mXEH RVOffTmO CO . MC.
J07 C StTMt. N E 2 5
Waltiin|<o<i. O C !0(»2
(202) M6-i««6
ONCIASSIFIEI
144
I
for a program, such as the one outlined in the proposal to !
I
the Heritage Foundation? !
A Colonel North didn't direct me, personally, to do !
anything with respect to the use of any monies. He may have 1
i
directed, or requested, Mr. Miller to use it in some way and [
I'm not privy to what they discussed. I only can tell you
what I was told by Mr. Miller and that was that these monies,
the monies derived from the Heritage contribution were used
for information and political activities. That's the extent
of my knowledge .
Q I believe you indicated earlier that once money was
transferred into the IC account, you regarded that money as,
basically, to be spent at the direction of Colonel North?
A Yes .
Q So then you would have known that the money from
the Heritage Foundation went into an account, whose disburse-
ments were directed by Colonel North, is that correct?
A Yes, although at the time, at the discussions of
the contribution from the Heritage Foundation were taking
place, the system, the procedure, under which Mr. Miller and
Mr. North agreed to dispose of funds, was just beginning to
function. So, it was not clear in my mind exactly how
transfers would take place, where they would go, and who
would receive them and so on.
Q Was your signature required on documents causing
ii^im APPirirn
I
585
clgl45
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■LLm mronrma CO.. mc.
»7 C Strett. N E 25
Vuhiofnn O C 20002
145
money to be transferred from IC to other accounts?
A I believe so.
Q So you would have been aware of the transfers of
funds from IC to any other entity?
A Yes, but I've stated previously that the handling
of such transfers was routinely performed by Mr. Miller, who
put a piece of paper in front of me for my signature and
sometimes I either did not review, or gave a very cursory
review, to them before signing. So, I cannot say that in
every instance, I was aware of both the amount of the
transfer and the destination of the transfer.
Q At the time that Mr. Miller informed you of the
proposal that had been presented to the Heritage Foundation,
or at the time that he informed you that the money had been
received from the Heritage Foundation, did he tell you that
the National Strategy Information Center was involved in any
way?
A Did Mr. Miller tell me?
Q Yes.
MR. PRECUP: May we have the name of that organiza-
tion?
MR. OLIVER: National Strategy Information Center.
MR. GOMEZ: No, he didn't tell me. I don't believe
he told me.
BY MR. OLIVER:
UNCLASSIFlEi
586
clgl46
1
2 !
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
_ 18
on
t.±9
I
go
en
CO
23
24
ULLin XVOOTINO CO . INC.
)07 C Sam. N E 25
WuhuFon D C 20002
Mm%
I a i '1 .* S
■ 3
146
Q Do you know Roy Godson?
A Yes. I don't know him. I've never met him
personally. I know who he is.
Q How do you know that? How do you know who Mr.
Godson is?
A I've seen him on television. I've seen books that
he's written. I've seen references to him in the media.
Q To your knowledge, was he ever involved with the
Institute for North South Issues in any way?
A' n6.
Q To your knowledge, was he involved, in any way, in
the Heritage Foundation %rant7
A Yes, but I don't exactly how, only that he and Mr.
Miller had conversations and I think Mr. Godson had conversa-
tiona_3^;rtg::olanBl North. -^ 'r\-=f ~^ : .~- ^ _"^^^- -^,.^ ~^ — ^_^
.lei: t«^ aBHC^lHrt^pie S^vers9=
tions — his conversations with Mr. -Godson an3 Mr. Godson's
conversations with Colonel North?
A Mr. Sodflon, I believe--I can't t^ certain- -was^
acting on behalf Jwl the Herbage Foundation or in connection
with the Heritage Foundation, but I Cannot go beyond that in
terms of being more precise with respect to their relation-
ship.
I
Q Did he ever mention to you that any funds from this j
grant were to be uss/ioAvtX
587
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■jjR KE^oirnMa co.. mc.
• C iunt. N E 25
ashi/lft*'"- ^ C :0002
lilLHSSi
'IdJ
147
A No.
Q Would you turn to page five of this exhibit and
examine that document? It is a memorandum to file--to the
file Anthony Williams, CPA and INSI director from Richard
Miller, treasurer, dated December 1, 1986. Subject:
Heritage Foundation grant of October 15, 1986.
You are a director of INSI. Is that correct?
A Right.
Q Did you receive this memorandum on or about
December^. 1, 1986?
A I don't recall seeing this before.
Q Did you ever discuss the Heritage Foundation grant
with Mr. Miller in December of 1986 or approximately there-
abouts?
MR. PRECUP: May I just make a comment here? I
don't want to raise an objection. It appears from looking at
these documents that there may be two different Heritage
Foundation grants about which the documents speak: one on
October 15, 1985, one on October 15, 1986. So to say the
Heritage Foundation grant creates an ambiguity.
MR. OLIVER: You are right, counsel. It does say
that. And we have tried to determine through our investiga-
tion whether or not there were two Heritage Foundation grants
of $100,000. And what we have been able to determine is that
there was only one and that this is probably a typographical
588
jlbl48
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
ULLCn MPODTINa CO.. MC.
507 C Smft. N E 2 5
Wuhin|ton. DC 20002
mmm
148
error in Mr. Miller's memorandum, because we have been able
to determine that there was only one grant of $100,000
through INSI from the Heritage Foundation, through the
ex2unination of bank records and through the testimony of
other witnesses.
MR. PRECUP: Yes. And does this document refer to
$100,000--this is page five now, of Exhibit 8? I don't see
that. Would you point it out to me?
MR. OLIVER: This document does not refer to
$100,000. But there was only one grant in the records of IBC
or INSI from the Heritage Foundation, and it was for $100,000,
and it was on October 15, 1985.
[Brief discussion off the record.]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Gomez, is it your belief that the Institute for
North-South Issues received only one grant from the Heritage
Foundation during 1985 and 1986?
A I have been told and read in the press and discussed
with Mr. Miller another grant, which so far has been--not
been explained to me. I know nothing of it.
Q What did he tell you the other grant was for?
A He said he didn't know.
Q Did he know of another grant?
A I have seen references to another grant.
Q Did he tell you he knew of another grant?
589
jlbl49
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
H
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Htio) nronrrma co.. mc.
507 C Street. N E 25
Waihinftoo. DC. 20002
UNOIASSIFIE
149
A He said he was trying to find out what it was.
[Brief discussion off the record. ]
MR. OLIVER: Mr. Gomez, your recollection of the
transfer of $80,000 to IC and the documents that we have
before us don't appear to agree. I wonder if you could tell
me what really was happening here? What was the mechanism
that was being utilized for these transfers of funds and this
correspondence?
MR. GOMEZ: All of the matters relating to INSI and
any transfers of funds from INSI for whatever purpose and
relating to the Heritage Foundation were handled by Mr.
Miller. My dealings with INSI dealt — or concerned programs
for which the Institute was created — that is, administration,
planning — of visiting groups, interchanges, exchanges, and so
on--international visitors coming to the United States.
Therefore, I am unable to explain any discrepancies
that you may find in the records relating to transfers from
the Heritage Foundation to INSI and beyond.
MR. OLIVER: Could we take a three-minute break?
[Brief recess . ]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Gomez, did you receive statements — bank
statements--f rom the IC bank accounts in the Cayman Islands?
A No.
Q How did you verify what transactions had taken
590
jlblSO
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MUXR REPORTINa CO.. IMC.
507 C Sum. N E, 2 5
Vuhintton. D C i0002
I 202) M6-6M6
INCLASSiRE.!
150
place in the IC account?
MR. PRECUP: If you did.
MR. GOMEZ: I didn't.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Were you aware of any of the transfers from the IC
account to other entities at Colonel North's direction at the
time they took place?
A No.
Q But your signature was required for each one of
these transfers.
A I don't know if it was required for every one.
Only--I have been shown documents that I signed, and I
recognize having signed them. What I was signing, however, I
don't recall, and I can't say that I signed every one--every
transfer that ever took place.
Q Have you ever heard of an organization or an entity
known as Parke-Feld Enterprises?
A No.
MR. PRECUP: Parke-Feld?
MR. OLIVER: Parke-Feld — P-A-R-K-E-F-E-L-D.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Do you have any knowledge why money would have been
transferred from the IC bank accounts to Parke-Feld Enter-
prises?
A No.
srH'^^
yNCU\SSlFi[
591
jlblSl
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Hiou NvoimNa co . tic
M)- C Sum. N E 2 5
Vuhmftofi. C 20002
mmmiB
151
Q Have you ever discusaed the Heritage Foundation
grant with any officials of the Heritage Foundation?
A No.
Q Do you know Walt Raymond?
A Yes.
Q When did you first meet Walt Raymond?
A In 1983--no, wait a minute, I'm sorry--probably
1981. I was at the State Department and obviously working in
i Bureau of Public Affair;
you meet Mr. Raymond
at a later time when he was serving in another capacity?
A I saw him later when he went to the NSC as director
of public information or assistant or deputy assistant in
charge of public diplomacy or information--policy . I forget
iiini i\oesi.ir«i
592
jlbl52
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
utjLin McroimMa co . mc.
507 C Street. N E 25
WashinfTon. D C 20002
mm
152
the exact title.
However, I saw him very rarely in that capacity —
that context.
Q Did you participate in meetings at the White House
in which Mr. Raymond participated in 1984, 1985, 1986?
A Yes.
Q What were those meetings?
A They were general meetings to discuss planned
information policy relating to Central America.
Q \ Did you participate in a program designed to
influence the congressional vote on aid to the contras in
1985 or 1986?
A Yes.
Q Could you tell me about your participation in those
activities?
A Well, this was a program — an information program —
which Mr. Channell and his organizations asked IBC to
undertake. And it entailed a good deal of research on
congressional districts and voting records of members of
Congress from those districts with respect to assistance to
the Nicaraguan resistance.
It also concerned identifying key media in those
districts in which to direct prograuns--through which to
direct programs and coordination of a speaker's program in
those areas also.
sifyf!! mi^m
593
jlbl53
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
nujii KronTwa CO.. mc.
)o;cS[im. NE 25
Vuhinfion. D C 10002
(202) M«-M6«
!!'
USSiFlEO
153
My role in this program was rather marginal,
however, in that I frequently talked to researchers and
staffers about their progress on the work so that it would be
finished and so that it could be presented in time for a
meeting with Mr- Channell.
Q What was Walt Raymond's role in that effort?
A None, to my knowledge.
Q I believe my question was whether or not you
participated in meetings in the White House in which Mr.
Raymond participated.
A Yes.
Q But the meetings in which he participated with you
had nothing to do with the legislative effort.
A That's correct. This--my meetings with him were
perhaps a year, a year and a half before anything dealing
with the legislative effort.
MR. OLIVER: I'd like to ask the reporter to mark
this document as Gomez Exhibit No . 9 . It is a memorandum from
Oliver North to Robert McFarlane dated March 20, 1985, and
the subject is timing and the Nicaraguan assistance vote.
It's--there is an attachment to it entitled "Chronological
Event Checklist". I'd like to ask you to show that document
to the witness and ask him to examine it, in particular the
Chronological Event Checklist.
m RRRiRf j
[The document referred to was
594
jlbl54
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HUXER MfOmWa CO.. INC.
50; C Sum. N E 2 5
Washmgron. DC. 20002
iNCUSSlfitS
154
marked for identification as
Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 9. ]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Have you ever seen the Chronological Checklist
before?
A I haven't gotten to it.
Q My question is whether you've ever seen this
Chronological Event Checklist or a similar document in the
Sctme format.
A The State Department Office of Public Diplomacy
sometimes created chronologies with forthcoming events with
action assignments for various people. And my name may have
appeared on one or more of those.
Q Did you see those documents?
A Sometimes. Now, you asked whether I have seen this
one. I had not seen it at the time — February of '85 — March
20.
Q Your name appears--or the name Gomez appears--in
paragraph five of the first page of the Chronological Event
Checklist, 'it indicates that the responsibility shared with
Colonel North and the NSC is to encourage U.S. media reporters
to meet individual FDN fighters with proven combat records in
the media field. Was that your assignment?
A That was something that we had been doing routinely.
Q And did you work with Colonel North in carrying out
595
jlbl55
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
ULLER mronrrma co . mc.
iOI C SuCTT. N E 2 5
Wuhiofion. D C 20002
155
this responsibility?
A Not in a direct way, no. _
We were eager to get interviews for anybody on the
resistance side throughout this entire period. So this is a
rather routine sort of thing. f
Q Were you aware of the responsibilities that these
other people were given in this Chronological Event Checklist?
A Has been de-classified?
Q Yes, it has been de-classified.
A I would have to say that I wasn't aware of the
detail of it and that my knowledge of it is limited to some —
two things: one, input from myself and from Richard Miller
regarding some things that we thought ought to be done vis a
vis the media and the resistance; and two, whatever aspects
of this that would relate to the Office of Public Diplomacy.
But I have not seen this document in this form.
Q Have you seen a similar document in this form?
A As I stated previously, I have seen documents
prepared by LPD — Office of Public Diplomacy — at the State
Department with a similar format. In other words, they're
identifying forthcoming events and trying to anticipate
planned actions and assigning planning responsibility or
program responsibility to individuals.
Q Did Colonel North's name appear on those chrono-
logical events checklists?
w.\ m^m
596
jlbl56
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■Lm Ktromma co.. mc.
507 C Strttt. N E 2 5
WaihiUfloa. D C. 20002
Ul
156
A I don't recall.
Q Did Mr. Raymond's name appear on them?
A I believe so.
Q What was your relationship with Mr. Raymond during
the period that you performing your contract for the Depart-
ment of State?
A I had very limited contact with him. Sometimes he
attended a meeting.
Q What meetings would he attend?
A Perhaps a meeting in Otto Reich's office or a
conference--a larger meeting in a conference room at the
State Department.
Q Did you ever attend any meetings with him in the
White House?
A Maybe once or twice.
Q Do you remember what those meetings might have been
about?
A I remember seeing in the--same thing: information
programs, strategies.
Q Do you know Dan Kuykendahl?
A Yes.
Q How do you know Dan Kuykendahl?
A I met him through Mr. Miller, because the Gulf and
Caribbean Foundation, of which Mr. Kuykendahl is a represen-
tative, was a client of IBC.
A^lflfll
597
jlbl57
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
CO.. —c
V)7CScinT. NE 2 5
Wuhia|io<i. DC. 20003
mm
157
Q Did you attend meetings which took pl ace in Mr .
Kuykendahl 's--or in a townhouse on Capitol Hilll
A I have attended meetings there, yes.
Q What were the purposes of those meetings?
A Some were to brief various representatives of
groups supportive of the White House policy on what was going
on in Central America. Some were to plan information-related
strategies--congresstonal-related strategies.
Q Who else attended those meetings on a regular basis?
A Well, I only attended one or two of those meetings,
so I can't say who attended regularly. There were represen-
tatives of various public interest groups around Washington
and of course Mr. Kuykendahl, Mr. Channell sometimes.
Q Did Mr. North — Colonel North attend any of those
meetings?
A I believe I saw him at one meeting at Kuykendahl 's .
Q Were those meetings primarily to discuss legislative
strategy?
A Well, I didn't discuss or attend but maybe one of
the meetings that had to do with anything relating to
legislative strategy, so I cannot characterize other meetings
that may have taken place.
The one that I attended had to do with legislative
strategy, yes.
lIMCLESir^fl
598
jlbl58
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mxn HVOKTwa co., mc
)07CStrert. NE 25
Wuhmpon. D C 20002
12021 M6-MM
UNCLASSIFIED
158
Q Do you remember when that meeting took place?
A No.
Q Could it have been February 11, 1985? Does that
sound like the approximate date?
A It could be.
Q Did it have to do with the vote that was to take
place in 1985 on contra aid?
A Well, I've lost sense of the timing of what was
being debated on the Hill and meetings and so on. It could
have been.
I know that there was a lot of activity among
various people concerned with the issue and that meetings
were taking place in a lot of places around Washington in
support — in an effort to support the White House.
Q Did Rob Owen attend any of those meetings?
A Not to my knowledge.
Q Do you recall any meetings with Colonel North in
which you and Mr. Kuykendahl and Rob Owen and Rich or Jonathan
Miller occurred--and Rich or Jonathan Miller occurred?
A At any time?
Q At any time.
A Yes. I can't say that every one of those persons
was present. There — in the fall of 1985--I'm sorry--the fall
of 1984, when we were--after we had more or less established
a relationship — the working relationship--with Colonel North
599
jlbl59
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Mun tanmnta co.. mc.
507 C Sum. N E 2 5
Vadunfua. DC 20002
UNCLASSIFJE!
159
as far as the information efforts were concerned, Mr. Miller
and Colonel North and Mr. Owen--we may have all come together
in a meeting at the time in Colonel North's office.
But I don't remember--! can't associate such a
meeting with any specific progreun or activity. Just one of
many meetings.
I do recall once when Mr. Owen presented a--some
suggestions --a written memorandum--on how to gain favorable
publicity for the resistance leadership. And it was handed
to me. We looked at it--Rich Miller and I looked at it--and
decided not to pay any attention to it.
Q Who handed it to you?
A Owen.
Q Did you ever get a call from Jonathan Miller asking
you to contact Adolfo Calero to take out major fund-raising
ad?
A No.
Q Did you ever contact Adolfo Calero about a major
fund-raising ad?
A No.
Q You indicated that you were working on a project
for Mr. Channell that had to do with examining congressional
districts — medias in those districts and that sort of thing.
Would you describe to me what IBC's role was in'
that effort and who in the XBC organization carried out the
mo in the IBC organizatic
JIMTJ AQQfriEU
600
jibieo
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HiLLU kepohtwo CO.. mc.
507 C Strtct. N E 2 5
Vuhuipon. D C 20C02
160
responsibilities related to that requirement?
A Our job, fundamentally, was to relate congressional
districts and votes concerning aid to the resistance to media
and media channels, avenues in order to carry out a program
designed to influence public opinion in those districts.
Q Who did that on the IBC staff?
A Well, Mr. Miller oversaw the effort generally.
Steve Schwartz was in charge of the political--the congres-
sional side of things. Rafael Flores was looking at the
congressional districts also, doing a lot of research on that.
Q Was this in 1986?
A Yes.
Q I'm just trying to put it in a time frame. There
were two votes--one series of votes in '85 and one in '86.
A There was no program in 19 85. This was in 1986,
beginning in the fall and leading up to January-February. I
think the vote was moving on the calendar constantly.
And other staffers were concerned with identifying
media in each of those districts and planning appearances by
people in those districts.
Q Do you know Bruce Cameron?
A Yes .
Q When did you first meet Bruce Cameron?
A I don't recall the circumstances under which we
first met.
\\m \^^\\M
601
jlblCl
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■•.UA Ktromma CO.. mc.
)o: C Strcti. N E 25
Waihinttixi. DC 20002
(202) H6-«6M
UNCLASSIFIED
161
MR. OLIVER: I'd like to show you a document, and
then we can discuss this .
I'd like to ask the reporter to mark this as Gomez
Exhibit No. 10.
Do you have a copy of that document, Mr. Gomez?
MR. GOMEZ: Yes.
MR. OLIVER: The document is a memorandum for Spitz
Channell from Rich Miller and Frank Gomez; subject: freedom
program; dated January 9, 1986.
[The document referred to was
marked for identification as
Gomez Deposition Exhibit No.
10.]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Do you remember this memo? Do you recognize this
memo?
A I have to read it.
I recall the circumstances. Whether I recall the
memo specifically, I can't say.
Q Could you tell me what you remember about the
circumstances?
A Basically what is reflected in the memo.
Q Who is the confidential source that's referred to
in this memo?
A I don't know. At this point, I was dealing on a
JlMMMQIPrn
602
jlbl62
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLL£ft ftCPOfmNG CO., MC.
507 C Suw. N E 2 5
W^uhiogtoa. D C 20002
(202) >46*6666
UNCUSSIFIED
162
very limited basis with Mr. Channell and the programs related
to him, although I was briefed from time to time by Mr.
Miller on his relationship with Mr. Channell and the Bruce
Cameron relationship also.
Q Who briefed you?
A Mr. Miller.
Q And what did he tell you about the Bruce Cameron-
Spitz Channell relationship?
A Precisely this--what's in this memo.
Where is the reference to the confidential source?
Q If you look in the second paragraph, it says, "We
know Bruce personally, but through a confidential source we
have learned that he is in dire need of a job. It has
occurred to us, therefore, with some extra thinking by our
source, that he could be extremely helpful in the Central
American freedom program. "
That doesn't help you remember who your source
might have been?
A No, I don't know who the source is.
Q Do you remember what caused you to send this
memorandum to Mr. Channell?
A It was Mr. Channell 's concern to do something on
the Hill--to be effective on the Hill. Up until that time he
had been primarily relying on Mr. Kuykendahl for assessments
and contacts. And as you know, Mr. Kuykendahl is a Republican
imni Aooirirn
603
]lbl63
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
uixa acpoimHa co.. mc.
50- C Sueci. N E 2 5
WuhuifTon. C 20002
(20;) X*-666«
UNCLASSIFIED
163
and former member of Congress. And it was all--it had long
been felt within the Channell organization that they should
have someone on the Democratic side who could work with them
also.
Q Do you know whether or not Bruce Cameron was hired
by Spitz Channell?
A I believe he was.
Q Was he hired through PRODEMCA?
A I don't know what the administrative relationship
was--or arrangement.
Q And what did he do for Mr. Channel?
A Did analysis of the forthcoming vote, how things
would stack up, maybe personal contact--what we would
describe as lobbying.
Q what was your involvement in the legislative effort
in 1986?
A None .
Q Did you attend the meetings where the legislative
strategy was discussed?
A One, maybe.
Q This was at Mr. Kuykendahl's townhouse.
A One — you asked specifically previously about
legislative meetings at Mr. Kuykendahl's house. I attended
one meeting there.
And there were other meetings with strictly
luim Rooirirn
604
jlbl64
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HILLU REPORTINa CO . WC.
W; C Sireti. N E 2 5
Wuhinilon. D C 2000:
(2021 S46-6666
UNCLASSIFIED
164
Channell representatives in our offices which took place in a
conference room adjacent to my office, and so I saw the
meetings taking place and sometimes sat in for a few minutes
at those meetings.
Q And they were primarily concerned with the legisla-
tive effort?
A No, they were concerned with things overall--that
is, public information, research, the legislative effort,
other projects that Channell was working on.
Q Were any of those meetings concerned primarily with
the legislative effort?
A Yes .
Q Did you attend any of those?
A I don't know how many. There were a lot of
meetings. I may have attended two or three.
Q Do you remember who else attended those meetings
that were concerned with the legislative effort?
A Dan Kuykendahl attended from time to time. Bruce
Cauneron attended, although I do not recall myself attending a
meeting in our offices where Bruce Cameron was also there. I
do recall attending meetings when Spitz Channell and Dan
Kuykendahl were there and others from our staff.
Q Did Penn Kemble attend those meetings?
A In our office? Yes, I believe he attended one. At
least, I saw him at one meeting in our office. I did not
iiKioi Aooinrn
605
3lbl65
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLOt RCPOmiNa CO.. MC.
50; C SutcT N E 2 5
WuhlDgtoQ. DC 20001
UNCUSSIFI!
165
attend the meeting.
Q what was Penn Kemble's role in this program that
you were conducting for Mr. Channel 1?
A He played no specific role, as far as I am able to
determine. But as I related to you earlier, I am looking at
this from some distance, because I did not attend that
meeting. I don't even remember whether he attended the
Kuykendahl meeting.
The only thing I remember is that he attended
meetings on this subject at our offices.
Q Do you remember a luncheon meeting on September 10,
1984 which took place in your offices at 1607 New Hampshire
Avenue?
A Yes.
Q With Rich Miller, Jonathan Miller, and Oliver North?
A Yes. I remember that a meeting took place.
Q What was the purpose of that meeting, and what can
you remember about it?
A It was to discuss programs — information, public
diplomacy programs — relating to the State Department office
and their relationship to the resistance. That's all.
Q Why was Oliver North there?
A Because he had been working in conjunction with the
Office of Public Diplomacy at the State Department.
This was shortly after I had met him for the first
jikinijLW^incn
606
jlbl66
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21v
22
23
24
MLLn RVOnnHQ CO., MC.
J07 C Sum. N E 25
Wuhmitoo. DC 20002
r?07\ UA.AAAA
UNCLASSIFIED
166
time, which I said was at a swearing-in ceremony for Ambas-
sador whatever to Guatemala. I'm sorry. And I believe it
was primarily to get acquainted better and to understand
roles, to discuss programs.
Q Did you discuss the nature of your State Department
relationship with Mr. Miller or Colonel North at that
meeting — with Mr.' Jonathan Miller?
A No, I don't think so — not in any specific sense.
As I recall, we were discussing programs, we may
have discussed what we do for the State Department--you know,
we write articles; we translate articles; we serve as
interpreters; we debrief visitors; we arrange media events,
press conferences, and so on.
Q Was it shortly after that meeting that you began
work on the secret contract for the Department of State?
A No.
Q Was it shortly after that that you —
A You said September 11, 1984.
Q Was it shortly after that that you entered into an
agreement with the State Department that was substantially--
for a substantially larger fee than you had previously been
obtaining?
A Yes. It began the next fiscal year.
Q Was that discussed at that meeting?
A No, I don't think so.
liwpi AQCinrn
607
jlbl67
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
WLUjt ngromma Co.. mc.
)07 C Screti N E 25
Waihinpon. O C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
167
Q Do you recall a meeting — a lunch — on June 5, 1985
at the IBC offices with yourself, Jonathan Miller, Otto
Reich, and Oliver North?
A June 5, 1985.
Q Did you call a luncheon with those participants at
your office around that time?
A Yes .
Q What was the purpose of that luncheon? What was
the business that was discussed there?
A Public diplomacy.
Q Did you discuss the legislative effort at all?
A I can't say specifically what was discussed beyond
public diplomacy programs.
Q Did you ever discuss with Otto Reich or Jonathan
Miller the work you were doing for Spitz Channell?
A No. Only perhaps to the extent that we were
performing work — services — for them. But not in greater
detail, no. We might have told them that X, Y, or Z event
was going to take place if it was useful for them to know
about it.
We sometimes kept them abreast of Channel 1-sponsored
activities because they coincided or conflicted with things
that the Office of Public Diplomacy was carrying out.
Q Did you regard what you were doing for Spitz
Channell to be complementary to what you were doing for the
iikinuLfOinrn
608
jlblGS
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■UJH NEKMITINO CO.. MC.
507CSirec. NE 25
Waihiofion. DC 20002
(202) M«-M«
yNCUSSlFlED
168
Office of Public Diplomacy at the Department of State?
A Yes.
Q Did you discuss the fundraising activities of Spitz
Channell's organizations that you were involved in with Otto
Reich or Jonathan Miller?
A No.
Q Why not?
A Because it was a separate matter for another
client.
We did discuss the fundraising for the public
information program that began in the fall of 1985 and went
into '86, yes.
Q Why?
A Because they involved the use of various speakers
that sometimes had contact with the Office of Public Diplo-
macy.
Q Do you recall a meeting on February 11, 1985 with
Colonel North, Walt Raymond, Jonathan Miller, yourself, and
Otto Reich to discuss the NRF fundraising dinner?
A No. I remember attending a meeting relating to the
NRF fundraising dinner, but I don't remember where or when it
took place and who participated.
Q I'd like to ask the--do you recall a message to
Colonel North from you and/or Rich Miller relating to Spark
to call off Rizo in June of 1985? Do you know what that
iiKiPi Acoicirn
609
jlbl69
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
mjLtji KtrcmiHO CO.. hc
V)7 C Strrei. N E 2 5
Wuhmftoo. O C 20002
FIE!
169
I
would have referred to?
A I don't remember a memo or anything written on that
subject .
Q A phone call — a phone message.
A I remember speaking to Mr. North about Mr. Rizo and
also Mr. Miller being concerned about Mr. Rizo's activities.
Q What was the concern?
A I believe it had to do with the Nicaraguan refugee
fund dinner and recovering profits from it, if there were any.
Q Who was Mr. Rizo?
A Mr. Rizo — I think his first name is Alvaro--
A-L-V-A-R-0 — is a Nicaraguan-born U.S. resident — maybe a
citizen; I don't know--who was working on behalf of--either
as a volunteer or paid; I don't know either — of the Nicaraguan
Democratic Resistance.
I'm sorry, that's not the right name--the FDN. The
resistance was created later.
But again, I was — the reason I'm vague — and I'm
sorry for sounding vague — is because I was on the periphery
of whatever issue Mr. Rizo and Mr. Miller and Mr. North were
concerned with.
Q Did Mr. Miller--Rich Miller--have any expertise in
Central America prior to the forming of IBC?
A A little, in that he had been director of Public •
Affairs for Aici ..at .Jibe ^&«t«i FOw»i*t««ent at the same time that
n^dii^j^im
610
jlbl70
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HU.eR HCPOimNQ CO.. INC.
507 CSirm. NE 25
Wuhiflston. D C 20002
UNCUSSIFIED
170
I was deputy assistant secretary of state for Public Affairs.
And in that capacity, I did a good deal of public speaking
and work, planning on — at the time — San Salvador and to a
lesser extent Nicaragua.
Mr. Miller attended meetings — planning meetings — at
that time at the State Department and had to be very familiar
with not only the public diplomacy issues — public information
issues--but also AID programs in the countries of the region.
Q Do you recall a meeting — this may have been
referred to earlier, and I may have forgotten. Do you recall
a meeting in July of 1985 between you and Rich Miller,
Colonel North, Spitz Channell, and Dan Conrad at which
Colonel North indicated to Channell and Conrad that from that
point forward they should forward the money that they raised
through their fundraising activities to IBC?
A I don't remember the circumstances of such a
meeting, if I attended.
I believe I would have recalled that, given from
whom the instruction or the direction was coming from. That
would have made an impression on me, so--
Q In June of 1985, early in your relationship--IBC ' s
relationship with Spitz Channell 's organizations — you
assisted in the organization of a briefing followed by a
dinner at which a check for $50,000 or $60,000 was presented
to Mr. Calero directly by Mr. Channell. Is that correct?
611
Lbl71
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MXCN HtPOfmHO CO . MC.
W7 C Sum N E 2 5
Wufciofton. D C 20O02
(202) V44-MM
yNCUSsra
171
A I don't know how much money was presented. Some
money was presented to Mr. Calero.
Q But you knew that money was presented directly to
Mr. Calero by Mr. Channell at the conclusion of this fund-
raising event?
A Yeah. Whether I was actually there when it was
presented, I don't remember. But I understood that some
money was presented to Mr. Calero.
Q Well, if you can't recall the meeting at which
Colonel. North may have instructed Channell and Conrad to
funnel the money--or to give the money to IBC, what is your
recollection of how IBC came to be the recipient of these
large sums of money from Spitz Channell 's organization?
A My recollection is that Mr. Miller informed me of
the procedures to be followed.
Q But you don't remember participating in the meeting
where this — where Mr. North told Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad
this was the way it was to be done.
A No, I don't remember that meeting.
Q Did IBC have any relationship with Bragg Communica-
tions or with Lyn Nofziger that related in any way to Central
America or to the Democratic Resistance?
A In late fall of '85 or early '86, Mr. Channell
sought Mr. Miller's recommendations in order to acquire
additional political advice across the board. And--
iiMPi Accincn
612
jlbl"2
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
utxat ncpORTiNO co . inc.
507 C StlCTI. N E 2 5
Vuhuifion. D C 20002
unit Mi-ftf^b
mmm
172
Q Was there a financial arrangement between IBC and
Bragg Communications or Lyn Nofziger?
A Not that I am aware of.
Q You mentioned earlier LPD and Mr. John Blacken.
What was your relationship with John Blacken? What did you
perceive his role to be with IBC?
A After--there was a great deal of turnover in the
Office of Public Diplomacy at a certain point. Ambassador
Reich had gone to Venezuela, was phasing out, Jonathan Miller
was either working at the NSC or spending a good deal of time
there.
And Mr. Blacken was — became the acting director of
the office or the de facto director of the office. And he
was the person with whom I maintained my most direct contact.
Q This would have been in 1985 or 1986?
A Both.
Q Do you know Jake Jacobowitz?
A Yes .
Q What was his relationship to IBC?
A He was one of the members of the staff of LPD. And
in that capacity, he and I consulted from time to time on
projects that we were both working on--sometimes jointly,
sometimes separately, but related.
Q Was he the person to whom the presentation by IBC
was made for the contract which was classified secret?
IfilAI ■ A#%IP>ifl-»«.
613
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■ioi ntnmima CO.. •«.
C Siicri. NE 2 5
ohinfion, D C. 20002
yNCliSSlREI
173
A No. That presentation was made to Mr. Blacken, and
I don't remember the timing. I don't think Mr. --yeah — Mr.
Reich.
Q Did Mr. Jacobowitz's sister work for IBC?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did she come to work for IBC?
A She started September 1, 1985.
Q Was she involved in any way in the presentation of
the IBC proposal to the Department of State for the contract
that was classified as secret?
A No.
Q You were the one that made the presentation to the
State Department. Is that correct?
A Yes. Mr. Miller and myself, yes.
Q And you do not recall Jake Jacobowitz or his sister
being involved in the negotiation or presentation of that
contract.
Your answer is no?
A They did not participate in the negotiation or
presentation .
Q How did Jake Jacobowitz's sister come to be
employed by IBC?
A In about June or July I met her in the hallway of
the Department. She was introduced to me by him, and he
proceeded to go on to a meeting or whatever.
iiiini nooinrn
614
jlbl74
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MLLER nromma co.. inc.
507 C Streti. N E 25
Tuhmtioa. DC. 20002
wmM
174
We were in a narrow corridor, and we spoke for a
few minutes, as people do when they meet for the first time.
I asked her the usual questions about where she was from and
what she did.
She explained it, and she said that she had been
considering moving to Washington and looking for a job in
Washington.
And I said, "Well, come see us. Maybe we can give
you an assist . "
So she came to see me and described her skills in
greater detail, and I said that kind of expertise--! concluded
that that kind of expertise was something that we had been
looking for in our of f ice--computers and distribution and
marketing and so on--and that we had had proposals from the
State Department to get involved in a distribution program--
improving their distribution system and that she might fit
into that.
I didn't talk to her again for several weeks. She
went back to New York.
In the meantime, I interviewed other people for
that, because the State Department had become very exercised
about the need to begin working on this. And when it became
clear that they wanted us to move very quickly to get things
straightened out in the distribution I contacted her, and we
discussed salary and services and scope of responsibilities.
615
jlbr/5
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
u«j.eii mpoflTwo co.. mc.
107 C Strert. N E 2 5
Wuhuiiton. D C 20002
UNCIASHD
175
Q This was September 1, 1985?
A September 1 is when she started working.
Q Am I correct in recalling that August of 1985 was
when you had the one-month contract from INSI?
A No, it was September of ' 85--September 1 to
September 30, 1985.
Q To analyze the distribution system.
A Yes.
Q And then it was after that period of time that you
began work on the large —
A Of the new contract.
Q --new contract.
A Yes .
Q When did you actually sign the contract?
A I didn't sign it. Mr. Miller--if anyone signed it
on our side, it would have been signed by Mr. Miller, and
that was, I think, in September of last year--or August of
last year. I don't remember exactly when.
Q Do you remember any problems that the Defense
Investigative Service has had in trying to obtain the
information from IBC that they needed in order to complete a
security clearance for your offices?
A I remember their--our efforts to contact them and
to arrange meetings and to follow up on calls from them and
to provide information to them and the difficulty of getting
iiMPiiiLQincn
616
jlbl76
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
H
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MILLER REPORTINQ CO.. INC.
JOT CSciccc, NE 25
Washinpon. D C 20002
176
them to respond to our requests, yes.
I remember also hearing back from the State
Department that they had alleged to the State Department that
we were not being cooperative. And we were stunned by that,
because it was in our interest to be as cooperative as
possible .
And I got the impression that it was just a
bureaucratic problem.
Q Did you write a letter to the State Department
telling them that those complaints were unfounded?
A I don't recall writing a letter.
Q Do you recall a time when Colonel North used his
influence with the Department of State to make an emergency
payment to IBC in response to a bill that--of April 1985?
A Yeah, I remember both the period under discussion
as well as media accounts about that.
Q Could you tell me why Colonel North was involved in
that?
A I can conjecture, and that is Mr. Miller was
impatient with the slowness of the payments from the State
Department. Getting paid from State had always been a
problem. And he asked Mr. North to use his good offices to
get us paid in a timely fashion.
Q And did he do that?
A I understand he did.
UNCUSSffi
617
jlbl77
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MILLER IWPOOTwa CO.. MC.
507 C Seitn, N E 2 5
WuhinfTon. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
/??
Q And were you paid?
A Yes .
Q At that time, was the State Department your largest
single client? Did you have any other clients at that time?
A Yes .
Q Who were--I don't want to ask you about your other
clients that are unrelated to this, but I would like to ask
you whether or not there were any--if you had any clients who
paid you as much as the State Department did.
MR. PRECUP: Can you specify the time a little more
carefully? You say at this time, but —
MR. OLIVER: I'm talking about April of 1985.
MR. GOMEZ: Okay. I believe State was the largest.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q How much of your time were you spending on the
State Department contract?
A Almost all of it.
Q what were you doing during that period of time?
A Translating documents; writing articles, letters to
the editor; planning strategies.
[Brief recess . ]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Would it be correct to say that your main source of
income during that period of time was the State Department
contract?
iiNHi mm
618
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
MILLEU REPORTtNO CO.. INC.
507 C Siicct, N E 25
Waihtflgton, D C 20002
(202) 146-6666
A
Q
A
ONCLASSIFIEO
You're talking 1985?
I'm talking about the spring of 1985.
Yeah.
/?r
Q Since the formation of IBC, other than the income
you received from Spitz Channell's organization, was the
State Department your largest source of income in 1985 and
1986?
[Brief recess . ]
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q On the IBC contract, Mr. Gomez, did you and/or Rich
Miller have a meeting with Mr. Robert Kegan in the fall of
1986 to discuss the services that you have performed for the
Department of State?
A Yes.
Q What was the purpose--what was discussed at that
meeting?
A Well, as I recall, Mr. Kegan had just recently come
on board as the new head of the Office of Public Diplomacy.
Or he was actually serving in Elliott Abrams ' office. I
think John Blacken was still there in Public Diplomacy. But
he was going to move into it or was already moving or
something.
And we just briefed him about what we were doing.
Q Did you submit a written report to him?
A I don't recall one.
wmm
t:
ini
619
jlbl79
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
imjLB* mKttnta co.. mc
)07 C Sam. N E 2 5
Wnlu^rixi. O C 20002
UNCUSSIFIED
179
Q And on the basis of that briefing, did he certify
that the work had been performed?
A I don't recall any discussion of any certification
of any kind with him in that meeting.
We're talking fall —
Q Of 1986.
A — of '86.
Q I believe the contract was signed in early September
1986. Is that correct?
A \ Yes.
Q And you were paid for the performance of that
contract in October and November of 1986. Is that correct?
A I don't remember when the payment was.
Q The sum was —
A I'm sorry. I was thinking 1985.
You're talking about a meeting with Mr. Kegan —
Q Yes.
A --after he had been in the Office of Public
Diplomacy as head —
Q Yes.
A — after the contract had expired. And it was to
certify for him — for us to render a report.
Q Yes.
A Yes. A report was presented.
Q A report was presented prior to your being paid.
mumm
620
jlblSO
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HIIXIR REPORTIMO CO.. IMC.
507 C Sutct. N E 2 5
VuhiniTon. D C 20002
wmif
180 !
A I don't know if --yes, I think so.
Q How did you pay the employees of IBC for the work
on the State Department contract between October 1, 1985 and
September 30, 1986 if you had not--were not paid by the State
Department until after the contract had been performed?
A With great difficulty. We literally paid it out of
our own salaries. We had no money. We were using whatever
other income we had from other clients to meet expenses and
pay the employees. And in so doing, we took virtually no
income o.urselves .
Q Did you pay the employees out of the funds you
received from Spitz Channell's organizations?
A And others .
Q Your answer is yes.
A Yes.
Q Do you recall a check for $60,000 being received by
the Institute for North-South Issues from a Mr. James
MacAleer?
A I have never heard of it.
Q Do you know of a $60,000 payment from INSI to IC
from a contributor in Pennsylvania in the fall of 1985?
A I have seen references in. some accounts somewhere,
whether the media or some other report somewhere about--oh,
it came up from our accountants. They asked me if I knew
about such a payment, and I said no.
:i L^mfu
621
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
»KL£» KEPORTINa CO . INC
107 C Sirtct, N E 2 5
ruhinjTon D C 20002
2021 M6-«666
IJNCUSSiFIE
181
Q Did you ask Mr. Miller about it?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?
A He said he didn't know.
Q He said he didn't know that such a payment had been
made .
A He said he didn't know what it was.
Q Do you recall a contribution to IC from a Mr.
Herbert Barness in the amount of $5,000?
A I don't recall ever hearing the name or any
contribution associated with it.
Q Did IBC prepare a report on the activities of
organizations in the United States who were supporting the
Sandinistas?
A I don't know whether the report can be characterized
precisely as you have characterized it, but a report was
prepared on organizations which are critical of the admini-
stration and may be favorably disposed to the Sandinistas. I
wouldn' t--
Q When was that report prepared?
A It began in the fall.
Q Of what year?
A Of 1986.
Q Who paid for the report?
A Mr. Channell.
yNCLA!;!;iFiFn
622
]lbl82
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
UlLLEn REPOHTINQ CO.. INC.
507 C Suctt. N E 2 5
WashinjTon. D C 20002
UNCUSSIRi
II
182
Q What did you do with the report?
A I didn't do anything with the report.
Q What did IBC do with the report? How was it
disseminated? Do you know?
A Mr. Miller presented it to Mr. Channell.
Q Who worked on the report on the IBC staff?
A Mr. Miller, Ms. Jacobs. The principal work was
done by those two, and other staffers were--
Q Did Oliver North have anything to do with that
report?
A Not to my knowledge. In fact, I don't believe Mr.
Miller had any contact with Mr. North after November.
Q You testified earlier that your--IBC ' s--contractual
relationship with Mr. Channell 's organizations was terminated,
I believe, in August of 1986. Is that correct?
A July or August.
Q And when--did there come a time in December of 1986
that IBC was retained once again by Spitz Channell 's organiza-
tions?
A Yes. I don't know the exact time of it.
Q What was the purpose of that arrangement with Mr.
Channell 's organizations?
A I believe it was to assist in--one, preparing this
report, for one thing; and second, to assist in the public
relations for Channell and the publicity that was being--had
mini unfMnrrs
623
jlbl83
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLn NEPOtrriHa co . inc.
507 C Stitrt. N E 2 5
Wuhioiion. D C J0002
12021 M6-6«66
ONCUSSIFIED
163
begun around that time.
Q What did you do--what services did you perform for
Mr. Channel in regard to the latter subject?
A I personally performed no services.
Mr. Miller performed services, and I think it was
primarily counsel on how to handle certain issues.
Q You were not involved in any way in that aspect of
your relationship with Mr. Channell?
A No.
Q _ Were you and Mr. Miller equal partners in IBC in
1986?
A We had an agreement which we called a partnership
agreement that began in 1986, but he referred to himself as
the managing partner or the senior partner. And in effect,
there was very little in the relationship that was different
from the earlier relationship — my work as a consultant to him.
Q Did you split the fees from clients with Mr. Miller?
A Yes .
Q Did you split the fee which--
A We split profits — I'm sorry--not fees. He handled
all administrative matters, all accounts--banking, accounting,
everything- -and the decisions that go along with those. From
time to time, I was consulted. Other times I wasn't.
Q So in effect, you worked for Mr. Miller. Is that
a ii J i
what you're saying?
itlJ
624
jlbl84
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
■ILL£K REPOATINa CO . INC.
50? C StiCTt. N E 2 5
Vuhmiron. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
184
A On some things, yes. On other things, I had the
lead.
Q What things did you have the lead on?
A Well, on the State Department. As far as the
execution of the work, I was substantively responsible. In
other words, I was the one who developed strategies, trans-
lated, executed, received visitors, interpreted, and worked
most directly in conjunction with people in LPD, whereas his
primary concern was with the contracting and payments.
And he also did a good deal of work on the distri-
bution system. I did not feel that that was my area of
expertise.
Q Was part of IBC's relationship with Spitz Channell
in December-January — December of 1986, January and February
of 1987--to reconstruct the accounts to determine for Mr.
Channell how the money had been spent which he had forwarded
to IBC?
A There was a report that was prepared by Mr. Miller
that had to do with the disbursements of monies received from
Mr. Channell. And exactly where that report fit in with other
things that Mr. Miller did for Mr. Channell, I don't know. I
never saw the report. I only know that it was being prepared.
Q You did not work on the report.
A No.
Q Did you have any meetings with Dan Kuykendahl in
ICLASSI
^
625
jlbl85
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HiLL£R mroKTma co . inc.
507 C Sum. N E 2 5
Wuhuigion D C ;0002
UNCLASSIFI
185
19877
A In 1987?
Q 1987.
A No, I don't think so.
Q Do you recall any discussions with Dan Kuykendahl
in 1987 regarding this investigation?
A Discussions between me and Dan Kuykendahl?
Q Or discussions at which he was present and par-
ticipated.
A . No.
Q Are you aware of any of the activities or any role
that Dan Kuykendahl played in advising Spitz Channell's
organizations, relative to this investigation?
A I don't have any first-hand knowledge of it. I
understand that there was a relationship, but I don't know
precisely what Mr. Kuykendahl was doing for Mr. Channell.
Q How are you aware of that relationship?
A Through Mr. Miller.
Q And what did he tell you about it?
A I believe he told me that Mr. Kuykendahl was going
to try to get helpful information into the hands of sym-
pathetic members of Congress.
Q Related to this investigation?
A I don't know if it's related to the investigation
specifically, but that was the number-one concern at the time.
UNCLASSIFIED
626
jlbl86
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
WLLEU REPOflDNQ CO.. IMC
)07 C Suect, N E 25
Wuhijigion. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIEI
186
Q Did you ever meet Bill Casey?
A Never .
Q Did you ever meet Bob Earl?
A Never .
Q Did you ever meet Ken deGraf f enreid?
A NO.
Q Did you ever meet Al Sapia-Bosch?
A No.
Q Nestor Sanchez?
A . Yes .
Q In what capacity did you meet Nestor Sanchez?
A I think the first time I met him was when I was at
the Foreign Press Center, and he briefed the foreign jour-
nalists on Central America.
Q Did you work with Nestor Sanchez in any way in 1985
and 1986 on programs that related to Central America?
A No.
Q Do you recall a meeting in the White House in 1985
in Oliver North's office or in the situation room where you
and Rich Miller, Otto Reich, Jonathan Miller, Nestor Sanchez,
Walt Raymond, Jeff Bell, and Jack Abramoff were present?
A Yes. I remember a meeting in the situation room in
which Abramoff and — the Bell name I would not have recalled,
but I do recall Abramoff.
Q Was Lew Lehrman there?
UNCUSSiril
627
jlbl87
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HLLCn RfPOmiNO CO . INC.
JOT C Sum. N E 2 5
Wuhia(ta«. D C 20002
UNCLASSIFIED
187
A And Lew Lehrman.
Q And what was the purpose of that meeting?
A I don't know if Mr. Sanchez was there. My sense is
that he was not, but I cannot be 100 percent certain.
What was the purpose of the meeting?
Q Yes .
A As I understand it, the meeting was requested by
Mr. Lehrman of Mr. North in order to offer a proposal to
conduct a nationwide public information campaign on behalf of
the administration's policy in Central America.
But the proposal never went beyond that meeting, to
my understanding, because at the same time that they were
asking--or proposing to run they program, they were asking
money to run it.
Q Were any of the grants which the Institute for
North-South Issues received from the National Endowment for
Democracy in any way related to support for the Democratic
Resistance in Nicaragua?
A In no way.
Q I'm glad to hear that.
A Well, I am proud of the work that the Institute did
in conjunction with the NED. We — I think we did a fine,
honest, credible job for the NED and_ for_ everyone ^l_s^^f^r^
which we worked as the Institute.
And it — I'm distressed that we have had to sever
1 for everyone else for
UNCLASSIFIED
628
jlbl83
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
HILL£n wrofmNQ CO.. MC.
507 C Suect, N.E. 25
VashufToli. DC 20002
(202) M6-6666
uNtussife
188
the relationship because of other things .
Q Do you know Linda Chavez?
A Not well. I know her, but not well.
Q Did she have--what was her involvement with IBC?
A She was a contact at the White House that Rich
Miller turned to to assist Mr. Channell in arranging for
briefings.
I don't recall ever speaking to her myself. I know
her from other activities in Washington having nothing to do
with her professional responsibilities.
Q Do you know Mark Richards?
A Yes.
Q How do you know Mark Richards?
A He was a consultant to the Office of Public
Diplomacy at the same time I was .
Q What was his job?
A He prepared reports on military activities in
Central America, analyzed, answered — he dealt with a lot of
the media--arranged — he briefed journalists who were in
Central American on what was going on there. But from the
perspective of a person that understood warfare, weaponry,
and so on--capabilities, movements.
Q Did you participate in any of the briefings that he
did for the media?
A No.
IINCUSSI
629
jlbl83
_ 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
Ut±Bt REPOtrnNO CO . MC.
107 C Screti. N E 2 5
Vuhiil(U>n. D C 20002
UNCLA!
in
189
Q Let me just siun up some of the salient points that
you've made today.
It was your testimony that the transfer of funds
from IC to other entities and from IBC to IC in the Cayman
Islands was done by Mr. Miller at the direction of Colonel
North. Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q It was your testimony that you were not aware of
where the money was going from IC to other entities. Is that
correct?
A I was not aware of what the entities were. I
sometimes saw what the entities were specified on documents,'
but I had no understanding of what they were, in most
instances .
It was only after the fact since some of these
things have been made public that I have been made aware of
the full names and the locations and so on of the organiza-
tions .
Q At that time you did not know what they were.
A At the time, I did not know what they were.
Q And you simply signed the required papers for these
transfers that were prepared by Mr. Miller at his request.
A That's correct.
MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions, Mr.
Gomez. I appreciate your patience. Sorry we kept you here
630
jlblSO
maa u p owr w o co.. mc
507 C SoCTt. N E
Wajhinftoa. DC. 20003 li
II
190
so long.
Mr. Fryman may have —
MR. FRYMAN: I have no questions, Mr. Gomez.
MR. OLIVER: Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, the taking of the deposition concluded
at 5:47 p.m. ]
UNCLASSiriEl
631
C- 4>r,
■/■
\
Partially Oeclj'ssKied/Released nn 26 Jn, ^Pff
unacf pfOKiiions ol E 12356
by K Johnson, National Security Council
Mui iicuta
3Ct •C'lvtK*
3CC •l'Clvlii«
OCC •l'l»l»«
3CC M^lvriM
OCC airtviK*
OCC "tTJv CICS
•t" cati
.]
P.M
-U'l
!•
miiooii xnaoat
•OjiIiCUtl
iKinacTutciuc
't.tOMll
W<l<t4tl'
•217 cavwiuH c*
•Ol oauio 'ttJi
'•om aiCMUis a.
faiMicij 0.
Mtt: JUM 1]. II
cooii mi
•I.MU 'aomna n< rau.o»i« aHMM-t no" n* mrcut' j
law H.C accovwr ro* iiitu :o-i»i»«Tmi iw.,
r>« aMWar of >|i« iMWfO louMW Ut OOLLM* (IJM.Mti
roi IMCiavs law *^.c,
•«« latctlL
itiaiii 'loiioa niii
OCCOuar auMtl
ruf a«cu«r o> <iu( n«utMa ut
TOi tsuaii mtc. •.«.
aicx-OxO. JiDtiai*
i«WSSS\i5
ilHb*iP
632
\A
QA2^9
cMor '0 acsaarr tm.
i.arii) MfiiciM srMmic tT\iein iMTiTun
I IN com. mi MM (Mjui
acli<s«o<i>. uiMiNia mm
OCCOuxr MUMCI m»-M»-l'
raf Movxr V ti\jfiiT< nut TMouaic ia aaujm tm.Mii
'0; MfllCW MCUaiTV MW. a.*.
•>s»iN«ro<i. cc.
cMOtT ro actouHT roi.
imrtTun w rnaotisa MO $u««TiaML ea»v.icT
accouHr auaMli t*-Wi W Ml
THf iMouMT Of rm Tiniiiaa us ooLufln ojt.aii
roi IMTncwriimrM. HHI
1119 MtCtn
mwi. ri.o<IM
'()• CMOir TO
••iTTTii iittnivcrioM HILL rouoM m fvam'% mu. ran mx or n«i(
mutacrioxt.
now you 'OH V«U* DII«CTiaH or Ttnt MTTTIM.
•tST •t*M05.
'. MKfZ
•lir tlVKOUN c>
H/ii/ii I lei
Partially DeciassilieJffleteased on ^ b ^i.g>^-^-g g
under provisinns ot EO 12356
by K Jonnson, National Secjiity Council
iMtei
633
mussro
Juo« 13. 19*6
M
Q1236
1
1 r
••
Mr. D«Tld M. Pitting
Senior Adalnlscracor
CayhaTcn Corportcion Sarvlcei Llaltcd
Barcltr* Bank Building
Gaorgatown, Grand Cayaan
Canaan Islands
Daar Hr. Plaslng;
This latter Is to conflra our talei to you on this date,
instructing you to transfer £roa the Intel Co-operation Inc.
account at Barclay's Bank PLC the foUovlng aaount;
Fire hundred thousand US dollars ($300,000) ^
to: Barclays Bank PLC
848 Brickal
Mlaal. Florida 33131
TLX: 518783
Account nuabar: 00500-3470-27821
Se»en_thousand US dollars ($7,000) X
Five thousand US dollars ($
to; Soiftfo Bank, N.A.
Ilchaond. Virginia
Talai 823468
Credit to account for;
Latin Aaarlcan Strategic Studies Institute
1806 Cool Springs Drive
Alexandria, Virginia 22308
Account nuaber 0510-000-17
Patliaily Oeciassitied/Rel^Jsed on _2_b_J-Cfcvr_Oo
undei provisions ol E 12356
by K Joniison, National Secunly Council
n^b*iS
634
(Ml* 2, plaslng,
Jun« 13, 1986
yssinti
j«T«aC^ flT« thousand US dollars ($75,000)
to; Aacrtcan Securltf Bank, N.A.
Washington, D.C.
Cradlt to account for;
QVA
V^^^
tan thousand US dollars ($10,000)
to; Intarcontlnental Bank
139S Brlckal Avanua
Mlaal. Florida
for crtdlt to account nuabar 6101005764
Thank fou for four diractlon of thi
Sincaraly ,
Richard R
Diractor
Intel Co-operation Inc,
\,.Jh^^l
Francis D. Goaaz
Director
Intel Co-operation Inc,
/? «/ b V ;
635
STENOGRAPHIC MDrtrTES
UnrcTiacd and Unedited
Not for Quotation or
DupUcation
-•^-O
V^;;~-'cX
UNCLASSIFIED
'K\mM.
Committee Hearings
ofttM
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
C0Cl3S!
,^,,.. ;,,33::d c. jSzllzIl.
w
OFFICE OF THE CLERK
Office of Official Reporter*
GOTf
636
637
HAHE- HIR257000
1
2
3
U
s
6
7
8
9
10
1 1
12
13
14
IS
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
Oi
i^ULhuua
,1ED
PAGE 1
RPTS THOHAS
DCHN KOEHLER
DEPOSITIOH OF ADAH GOODMAN
Konday, Septambez 1(4, 1987
Housa of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate Covezt
Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington, D.C.
The select comnittee met, pursuant to call, at 10: 10 a.m.
in B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, uith Thomas Fryman
(Staff Counsel of House Select Committee) presiding.
Present: Thomas Fryman, Staff Counsel, Spencer Oliver,
Counsel. Victor Zangla, Staff, on behalf of the House Select
Committee on Covert Arms Transactions with Iran; Henry J.
Flynn, Investigator, on behalf of the Senate Select
Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the
Nicaraguan Opposition; Allen L. Schwait and James H. Scott
of Frank, Bernstein, Conaway £ Goldman, 300 East Lombard
Street, Baltimore, Maryland, on behalf of the witness.
638
NAME:
2U
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
3(4
35
36
37
38
39
40
U1
^2
>43
nn
U5
H6
47
US
»r.....o. l)Hi)LhSSiFiEB
PAGE 2
BY HR. FRYHAM:
2 Let's go on the record then. Would you state your
iull name for the record.
A Hichael Adam Goodman.
2 And in what city do you reside. Mr. Goodman?
A Technically, Gli^ndon, Maryland, It is just north
of Baltimore.
2 Do you work in Baltimore?
A Our offices are located just north of Baltimore in
a little town called Brooklandville . It is ten minutes
north of the city, about an hour from Washington.
2 You are employed by the Robert Goodman Agency, is
that correct?
A That is correct.
2 What is your position there?
A Hy current position is I am vice-president, and
also referred to as a political director of the agency. I
am one of two vice-presidents under the president and
founder. Bob Goodman.
2 Are you one of the owners of the agency?
A No, I have no equity or stake in it.
2 Where did you attend college?
A Went to Haverford Collega.
2 Did you obtain a degree?
A I did, a B.A. in history.
UNUSSIFIEO
639
NAME ■
49
50
51
52
53
5U
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
7 1
72
73
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE
What year?
A Graduated in 1977.
2 Did you attend graduate school?
A No, I have taken a few courses here and there but
nothing formal.
2 Have you worked for the Goodman Agency since 1977?
A No, I started there in January of 1982. I have
been there now about five and a half years.
2 What did you do between 1977 and 1982?
A Many things. I started off working for nearly a
year at Hanuf acturers ' Hanover Trust in New York City, in
their investment trust division, then I went from there to
go campaign in Oklahoma, a campaign for governor. The
candidate was Ron Shotts, the Republican nominee that year.
Unfortunately, he fell a few votes short.
My position in the campaign was deputy press secretary.
When that didn't quite pan out, I then decided to honor ray
Peace Corps, yearnings and went back into public interest
law and to that end, my mom was in Tucson, Arizona, so I
thought I would go there and really get a little dose of
social work under my belt.
This was the kind of thing I felt comfortable with and,
at that point, I worked for the Tucson Urban League, Big
Brothers. I did some work in the Pima County jail system,
counseling young people as they just came in, what their
ONCLASSIFIED
640
NAME
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
8U
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
914
95
96
97
98
HIR2S7000
yHi;LhoS!F!ED
PAGE
rights were, and this is as a volunteer. And I supported
myself from a number of things, from waiting on tables to
doing some advertising, marketing, really selling ad/, space
for a professional volley-ball team, of all things, and
along the way met some people who were interested in solar
energy .
And that seemed to jibe with my feeling about what I
wanted to do with my life at that point. Within a month or
so, I raised «25,000 in capital and started a solar energy
corporation in Tucson, and I think now we are talking about
1979, I think, mid-1979. And about six, seven, eight months
into the experience when I found all I could afford was
oatmeal and generic beer at night instead of three-course
meals, I found this less k}n^t optimal, and about that time I
•-* -^
got a call from a campaign g ^i ae up in Washington state, who
needed a press secretary. '^ '^^
The candidate was the current Secretary of State, then
Secretary of State, Bruce Chapman, who is a moderate to
liberal Republican, a heck of a nice guy, and I did his
press through the primary. He lost to the eventual winner,
Z.
John Spallnan, King County Executive at that point, andA.went
from there to working for Marilyn Ward, who was running for
State Treasurer, who was in a quixotic race but a marvelous
woman, and ua had a heck of a time trying to get the
legitimacy, but we did awful well. I think we lost St to 46
641
NAME:
99
100
10 1
102
103
lOU
105
106
107
108
109
1 10
1 1 1
1 12
1 13
1 1U
1 IS
1 16
1 17
1 18
1 19
120
121
122
123
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE
to someone who had been in more than 20 years .
And after that experience, really another month or tuo
beiore I was asked to :oln the Republican State Committee of
Washington state and did their communications and press.
And ue are now m the first part of 1981, and worked
throughout the remainder of the year trying to adjust to
being a new found conservative regular Republican, which
wasn't always easy to do. or successful.
At the end of that year, I think it was in December, my
father called ne and said, "'Look Adam, I think you have
been out on the trail long enough, we are having a very busy
year in 1982, I would love you to come back and consider
coming back and joining us . ' ' And that challenge was the
fact I was trying to get out of a relationship with someone
for a year and a half, and who I had met in Arizona. It
seemed the only way I could delicately get out of the
relationship was to move 3,000 mil^s across the country.
1 did that and joined the firm in January of 1982 and
have been there ever since.
[Discussion off the record.]
BY HR. rRYHAK:
2 Well, back on the record.
I take it froii your answer, you have not served in the
military, is that correct?
A Ho, I have not.
\JVl
82-710 0-88-22
642
NAME
12U
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
1314
135
136
137
138
139
1U0
141
1>42
143
mu
145
146
147
148
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE
2 And you did not actually serve in the Peace Corps.?
A Mo.
2 So you have worked with the Robert Goodman agency
since January of 1982?
A That is correct.
2 Have your duties varied in the five years that you
have worked there?
A Very much.
2 Would you briefly describe?
A Uell, they weren't really sure what to do with me
when I came in because my father and the other vice-
president. Ron Uilner, had been together for about 27 years
and, creatively, they really handled everything that cane
out of the agency in terms of scripts and strategy and post-
production television and radio spots; and I really have
evolved over the course of the years into the agency's first
account executive. But from the very beginning I strove to
put together a top-notch media buying. media placement
division within the agency.That is really how I got my feet
5 gen ' t
campaign and saying, ''Hhat do you have today?'' and they
wet, because they really weeen ' t used to just calling up a
say, ''We have *5,000'', and call up a station and say,
"What can you do with «S,000?"
He were not technically polished back in the 1970's,
and into 1980 and 1982. So I put together , eventually , with
UNCLASSIHEO
643
NAME
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
HIR257000
''"lASSiilD
PAGE
the use of computers, really, what I think is a top-notch
time-buying arm of the agency. And over time, probably
beginning in 1983, I started to become a little more
involved with the campaign side in terras of strategy and
consultation. I was lika the day-to-day guy. When ray
father wasn't around oz Ron wasn't around, I would field the
calls and help as best I could.
I think my first big break in that sense, something
that plapV ^d" my stature within the agency, was ray service for
a farailiar person by the name of Frank Rizzo back in 1983,
when he ran for mayor, once again*, of Philadelphia. a»4- in a
primary against Uilson Goode . I think Frank took a personal
liking to me > valued my views and whatever else, and so,
from that point onward, I think my position changed somewhat
in that I think I was held in more--given a sense of position
of raore trust and esteem maybe within the agency and :]ust
continued from that point onward to -ae ntinu * — to" get my feet
wet and understand politics from a paid media side as
opposed to free press.
I think Ron Uilnez and my father and I see ourselves as
kind of a triumvirate of equals, each with a different
specialty and different perspective on things. And we talk
every day and we think there is a lot of value in getting
and hearing all three opinions; and getting consensus or
feeling\about possibilities or options creatively in the
icussro
644
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
18t4
185
186
187
188
189
190
19 1
192
193
19U
195
196
197
198
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 8
many assignments ue have in the political industry.
2 Does the Goodman Agency have one office, or do you
have more than--
A Ue just have one. one in Brooklandville .
8 Hou many employees does the agency currently have?
A Currently, ue have six full-time employees,
currently, plus Tom, ue have essentially a subcontracting, -»
film creu, uith some top cameramen t rit o do all our film uork
for the last ten or tuelve years headed by Wolfgang
Uaurzynouicz . And, ue also have someone uho uorks a lot
uithran editor by the name of Terry Halle.
2 Going back to the six full-time employees you
mentioned, your father and Mr. Uilner and yourself.
A Yes.
2 Uho are the others?
A The other employees are Carole Jacobs, uho is
basically my father's executive assistant, and receptionist
and ad infinitim, and then there is Colleen Vickers, uho is
now our accountant, really our bookkeeper, not really a
certified accountant, and she, at one point, started re a lly
uith me in the media division^ 6he did a lot of uork. I
assumed part of the proces^dp^ng some, and finally Bruce
Hentzer, and Bruce joined ouz agency, I think it uas , the
end of 1985, towards the end of 1985.
2 Kow, during the last three years, how has the firm
UNCiissm
645
HIR257000
UNCLASSINED
PAGE
NAME :
199 handled its bookkeeping, has the bookkeeping generally been
200 done internally over that period of time?
201 A Yes, sir. Ua had a bookkeeper retire this year, by
202 the naree of Helva H cC_j^i.iu.aiJl , and helva han been with the
203 agency practically from the very beginning, twenty some
2014 years, and she did all of the bookkeeping and the in-house
205 accounting, and we have an accounting firm that we use for
206 our taxes and for advice, I think here and there jOut of New
207 York by the name of H»«n and ll»«t. <-( -rf
208 S There has basically been one person in the
209 bookkeeping department over the last three years internally?
210 A Yes, sir, Melva up until, I think, she stepped down
211 in January or February oi this year. That is when Colleen
212 went from the media division to take over the bookkeeping
2 1 3 assignment .
21U S You have an independent accounting firm that is--
215 A Yes, sir.
2 16 Q Does the independent accounting firm also issue
2 17 audited statements or issue an opinion on financial
2 18 statement?
2 19 A I am not really sure. We are not a, I guess we are
22Q incorporated, I am not sure really how that works.
22 1 2 Is the bookkeeping department, is that an area that
222 comes under youx supervision?
223 A Ko.
IJIUSSIflED
646
NAME:
2214
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
2314
235
236
237
238
239
2(40
21(1
242
2143
2414
245
246
247
248
HIR2S7000I
\iwmm
PAGE 10
• ";ii,-,<
a^j-
2 Whose area is that?
A It really isn't *Ti anyone's direct supervision, I
think everyone in the agency, at diiierent points, is
interested in the flow of money from different campaigns.
And if I have a $50,000 time buy for a Bruce Chapman in
Washington state, my interest would be making sure that the
money comes on tine and then making sure it is disbursed
properly to TV stations, if that is, in fact, what we are
doing with the money at that point.
2 There is no one executive?
A No.
That supervises?
No.
nelva and now Colleen?
No. I should say, I guess, my father more than
anybody, I
t'^hink she is accountable to him, but I
don't think the word supervision, I don't think you would
really say anyone is directly supervising her.
2 Just for the record, Mr. Goodman, would you briefly
describe the types of services that your agency performs?
A Sure. I think now you could fairly say about 85
percent of our business is political. Almost all of that is
campaign oriented. We have been in business 27 years, but
in terms of politics, we have been handling, doing political
campaigns for the better part of 20, 21 years perhaps and
wmmii
647
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 1 1
KAKE
249 out assignn«nt now or our area of specialty is paid
250 communications or paid media.
251 Ua are involved in -p^^^ and producing, creating,
252 scripting-producing , post-producing, and distributing
253 television and radio commercials for candidates and
254 campaigns across the country. Now, in addition to that,
255 depending on the campaign, we also offer a lot of other
256 services here and there, like speech -writing and general
257 consultation about campaign strategy, and more specifically
258 campaign communications which run the gamut of everything
259 from press releases to major statements on issues or
260 concerns the candidate might confront over the course of an
261 election cycle. Really television and radio.
262 2 So I take it from your answer, one thing you do is
263 you write testaments.
2&U A Yes, sir.
265 2 And you said earlier you had a subcontractor that
266 does filming of testaments.
267 A Yes, sir.
268 2 You would suparvise that?
269 A We call ourselves a hands-on firm. Ue do
270 everything from directing the spots to going into the studio
27 1 after the filming and actually putting the spots together,
272 post production. And lots of spots we don't go out and
273 film, we do .9«- in the studio on video tape, normally, the 2<4-
UHCLIiSSlFiED
648
NAME :
2714
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
28U
285
286
287
288
289
290
29 1
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 12
hour turn around type spots, and ue are really hands-on
every step of the process. Ue are really more than
anything, if you had to call it something, ue are first and
foremost film makers.
Q Now, what is your role in the purchasing of air
time on stations in a particular area for carrying your
spots ?
A Bruce W unlz a i ", who I talked about before, is
t<:chnically the media director and he is responsible,
really, for day-to-day media placements, but he didn't
assume that title until January or February of this year.
Prior to that, before I was made a vice-president, which was
within the last six to nine months. I was really, my title
was media director. And as part of that job. my
responsibility was to coordinate tine placements, to put
together strategies for time placements and that was ray
primary function, and it somewhat continues to be my primary
function in campaigns that we are involved with, even today.
2 When you say strategies for tine purchases, what do
you mean by that?
A Hell, there are nany different ways to skin a cat
in a political campaign like in„state-wide campaign dealing
with multiple markets and trying to make decisions about
where bast your money can be spent, or where/idoes the most
effective job. where are the voters really ^»? If you have
UNCUSSIFli
649
HIR2S7000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 13
NAHE:
299 obviously finite resources, you have to make some judgment
300 calls, based primarily in my case on M »petieal data, but
301 beyond that, of course, what ray gut tells rae , really, at any
302 given point along the way, some campaigns and candidates
303 will depend on rae, primarily, as one of ray major r«bp o Tises
304 for advice, ^trt what to do with their money, their time buy
305 money, their television and radio money over the course of
306 the campaign
307 2 So, does that involve decisions, one, about which
308 station should carry the ads?
309 A Yes, sir.
310 2 And, secondly, the intensity of a buy in a
311 particular area, and by that I mean the number of times a
312 syot would be aired in any particular area?
313 A Yes, sir, precisely.
31U 2 Those are the two areas basically, what is the
315 station you placed the ads on and —
316 A Right.
3 17 S How they are run on any particular station?
318 A Exactly.
319 2 That is basically the strategic decisions that have
320 to be made?
32 1 A Yes, sir, and to put the strategies together and
322 make that^a proposal to the campaign and the people who
323 ultimately make these decisions which, generally, are either
650
MAME :
3214
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
33U
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
3142
3>43
344
345
346
347
348
UNCUSSIFIEO
HIR257000 I lllil I llXXinriX PAGE 14
candidates' and/or certain key players during the campaign,
the director, campaign manager, and so forth.
e Is there a general pattern as to hou the agency is
compensated for its work in a campaign?
A Ue wish there were a rule to govern this type of
thing. More often than not, it is a combination of what ue
calli^ fees and commissions.
2 Would you explain hou that works?
A Yes, it is different for every campaign in every
race. I think ue look at certain races like doing a race in
California, doing a race in North Dakota, because of the
size and importance of the race. And in California versus
Horth Dakota, ue uould tend to command more of the total
compensation, and the reason ue do fees and commissions,
generally, is ue are trying to find a uay to make it easiest
on the campaign, to pay for uhat ue think is uhat ue uould
like to charge overall for the campaign.
So, for instance, in a Senate campaign in California,
ii ue think that campaign involvement is uorth $200,000,
generally, uhat ue will do, ue uill say, okay, ue uill
charge a i»» , «5,000 a month, say, and commissions up to,
usually with a cap, up to «200,000. So ue uill iouk in,
hopefully, a contract price in that case of «200,000. In
the case of North Dakota uith a similar race, both Senate
campaigns, uhere ue are not really/ias you uould in
UNCLASSiRE!
651
UNCLASSIFIED
NAME: HIR2 57000 Ul llJ|_riUtJI 2 iL.ft/ PAGE 15
349 California «15 million, but raising »1.2 million, then we
re-.-.'--" • ^'YiU-
350 would adjust our compensation j o ir i a to reflect compensation
35 1 realities of the differences in t}i6 z-a^e^-.
352 2 When you refer to commissions, what are these
353 commissions on, if you would enplain that for the record.
354 A Commissions just refer to ^h* standard media
355 commissions, and every ad agency on the map will tell you
356 they get most of their income from commissions. Generally,
357 the standard commission cut is 15 percent which means, if a
358 spot on ''Good Horning America'' costs *100, the station
359 will be paid *85 or 85 percent of the cost of the spot and
360 the agency will retain S15 or 15 percent, and that is pretty
361 standard throughout the industry. A\d in some cases, Tom, in
362 these campaigns, campaign managers or candidates will work
363 out different kinds of arrangements on commissions.
361 They might cap commissions on some occasions,^ or they
365 might say we don't want yu -fc» pay a standard t-5-, but pay
366 you ten percent or seven and a half percent, that type of
367 thing.
368 2 That is a matter that is negotiabla?
369 A This is all negotiable, sure.
370 2 Generally, commissions are a major source of income
371 for us; fox the agency, is that correct?
372 A Yes, sir.
373 2 And you mentioned fees. Just to take an example.
ONClilSSIFIED
652
....llfiS'JiSSIFIED
NAME: HIR2S7000 in ^Lli_ntj?Lm S L. !^ PAGE 16
374 if a campaign asks you to prepare their television spots, to
375 prepare the script, to supervise the filming and put the
376 spot in final form for airing on a station, normally, would
377 you charge a fee for that sort of work, for the preparation
378 of the ads?
379 A Generally, we do, Tom, as we have our fee and
380 commission structure set from the very beginning of the
381 campaign that cames^the whole campaign. He don't do it on
382 a project-by-project basis. Once in awhil e ■ we will have an
383 arrangement like that, come into a campaign late and they
384 are having trouble with their current media consultant. In
385 that case I think, we would price it on a project basis.
386 Generally, no, we like to have or use monthly
387 retainers. We have a guarantee of steady income.
388 Generally, in most races I think, it is $5,000 a month. And
389 regardless of how many spots we produce, regardless of how
390 may speeches we write or a^w i ca ., that would be our standard
39 1 retainer. We make up the rest of the difference between
392 that and what we like to make in the campaign with
393 commissions.
39U We don't always place time buys in every campaign.
395 Some campaigns we will have other arrangements for those,
396 some will use other agencies just for the time placement
397 part of it, or perhaps in some cases, other general
398 consultants are brought into the campaign who have a time
111
B
653
NAHE:
399
UOO
40 1
U02
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
41 1
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
HIR257000
mmmiii
PAGE
17
buy capability and uill b« given the time buy. So it is not
standard that we always have that kind oi arrangement and m
those cases, Tom, we then depend i*-on getting a share of
the commissions rebated back from whoever is doing the
placement or we go on a straight fee basis.
BY MR. FLYHN:
fi You axe talking about film making?
A Yes, sir.
e Are these films, for instance, that you would shoot
at some kind of political gathering?
A Yes, sir.
2 Or some kind of filming on television?
A Both. It could be anything from a 30 second spot
to a maybe ten minute video on a candidate and family, what
he or she is trying to accomplish.
HR. SCHHAIT: I am not going to object to more than
one person taking the deposition ....less we get into areas
that might be controversial. I don't mind this kind of fill-
in in this kind of situation. Ordinarily, I would object.
HR. rRYHAK! Off the record.
[Discussion off the record.]
BY HR. FRYHAN:
fi Back on th« record.
Hr . Goodnan, when you purchase air time on a television
station, is the station normally paid by your agency?
n.
uaii
m
654
MAKE:
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
HIR257000
yNCLSSSlFIED
PAGE
18
A That is correct.
2 Then you bill the client for that time plus the
amount o± the commission, is that correct?
A Uell> technically that is correct, but «Ti~almost
every case s^ political campaigns since , as you are aware, ue
get the money for the time buy as they say. up front,
because TV stations are w il l aware of the ¥agai.i Lib is of a
campaign and how sometimes the best laid plans go astray,
and so. it is.\cash on the table kind of business for
political campaigns in terms of buying TV and radio time.
So, when you say bill normally, what we do is receive,
if we had a «50,000 time buy, we would receive SSCOOO first
from the clients . We would then take 85 percent of the
450.000 and send that to the various stations o n d- time buy
and. at the same time, we would bill, as a confirming
invoice, bill the clients for receipt of *50,000.,,a
breakdown of how that was spent on the various stations.
2 Now, there are some situations you indicated where
you will prepare the advertisement, but the time buy will
not be effected through youz agency?
A That is correct.
2 In those situations, you indicated the fee for the
preparation fox the ad will be adjusted.
A Hill be adjusted, yes.
2 I take it it will be more than it normally would
u
ED
655
NAHE:
4149
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
mmwB
19
be?
A Yes. sir. That is a safe assunption, yes.
2 What sort of controls are there to assure you that
a client will not take an advertisement, which you prepared
for a low fee, and arrange the tine buy itself and cut you
out of the conmissions for that ad?
T>-^>
■)!>
Li --^
A Hell, vt is a good question. I don't think ue have
any safeguards ultimately to prevent a client from taking
spots ue have produced and placing those spots directly ..iiTith
or without our knowledge. I think -Wt«7- would be w ith o ut our
knouledge in every case. Ue have no safeguard^ for that. Ue
would never vouch in a particular campaign there wasn't more
than one group or person directing and placing ads, that is
true other than, Tom, under the contract that ue will drau '
uith the campaign, it is stipulated in most cases ue are
talking about commissions in every case, ue uill receive X
~^>, _ ■'■'■": JrJ
percent, ten percent, 15 percent, whatever 4u4-l commissions
on all media buys from terms that ue produced so that, if in
'-v->-
fact that would occur, it would Ua. technically--probably be a
violation of our contractual agreement.
S When you prepare an advertisement for airing on the
television station, do you ship the advertisement directly
to the station from your agency?
A Hormally, yes.
2 After the ad is run, is it returned to your
656
HAHE •
147U
U7S
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
SSIFIED •
AGE
20
HIR257000
Station?
A Nornally, no. Normally, what the station will do
uill keep that spot for a cettain period oi time, usually a
couple oi months . 1£ it is not used for a couple oi months ,
they Mill destroy the dub. That is a dub copy o£ the master
of that spot from our studios.
2 Do they contact you before they destroy it?
A Some do, but most don't.
2 What is the form of the ad that is normally shipped
to a station, is there a certain size tape?
A That varies. Now, more often than not, a one-inch
video tape is the accepted size of a broadcast quality tape
that ue send stations, but the older format, two-inch, is
still used in a lot of smaller markets in the country, and
in many cases, with cable television stations, with even
some of the smaller stations in the country, three-quarter
inch tape is also requested, so it is really a variety of
formats .
What we try to do is determine when we are going into a
market^- tM call the traffic departments and make the request
^' 'i - ,
for certain information, including what type of tapes yett'
normally accept. So/,we know what to tell our studios in the
dubbing process .
S An I correct that any TV station in a major market
would normally use either a one-inch or two-inch tape?
iwssw
657
NAME:
499
500
50 1
502
503
50M
SOS
506
507
508
509
510
51 1
512
513
sm
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
UNCUSSIRED
A Yes
2 It would be unlikely that a major station would use
a three-quarter inch tape?
A Very unlikely.
S Now, I take it you frequently provide copies of
your tapes for your clients for their own viewing and their
own use?
A That is correct.
2 Do you normally provide one or two-inch tapes to
your clients?
A Ho .
2 Why not?
A Because they can' t--usually don't have the equipment
to be able to project those. The standard format for
p:.rsonal use, most standard format is half-inch, VHS. I
think 70 percent of the people in America that have video
recorders have««VHS type of format. There is Beta, half-inch
Beta, which is the next most common format, and finally,
three-quartez inch which is better quality reproduction than
half-inch, and ue prefer to send that to clients whenever
possible because we want them to see it closer to broadcast
quality, which is normally one or two-inch and it looks much
better than you would see on a half-inch player.
Again, to summarize, V ave inch and three-quarter inch
are two formats we would send in 99.9 percent of the cases.
mmmm
658
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE
22
NAME:
52U Ue hava no reason to send one-inch unless they had a studio
525 in their den and they had a one-inch player.
526 2 Do you know whether it is technically feasible to
527 take a half-inch or a three-quarter inch tape and reproduce
528 It on a one or two-inch format?
529 A It is.
530 2 Do you lose quality?
53 1 A You lose some quality every time you dub from the
. v-,^ ■ \^
532 master, you go down ■ttr'What they call a generation, you lose
533 some quality, and in this case I think, you would lose more
53«t quality going from three-quarter inch to one-inch than you
535 would going from one-inch to three-quarter inch.
536 But you could take a three-quarter inch tape or half-
537 inch tape and transfer it to a format that stations could
538 use and broadcast, and the quality wouldn't be the best, but
539 I think you g e * unde r ato o d , meet the minimum standard for
5U0 broadcast quality stuff.
514 1 2 Do I understand correctly from your answers, that
5142 if a client asKad you for a one-Inch tape for the client's
5143 oi«n viewing, that you would send them the tape?
5UU A Oh. sure, whatever they want. I don't think ue
5U5 have ever received a request for one-inch from a client. In
5'46 some cases, I think I said earlier, normally, we just send
Sm the tapes directly to stations. There probably have been
5>48 some cases in the history of the agency where we would send
uNWSsra
659
NAME:
5U9
550
55 1
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
56U
565
566
567
568
569
570
57 1
572
573
UNCLASSIFIED
HIR257000 IIIVIII M . f . 1 It 9 II il PAGE 23
a finished broadcast quaiity one and tuo-inch dubs to
satisfy the campaign, because of the need or effort to
reduce turn-around time.
Ue knew when he wanted to go on the air much more
quickly on certain spots, we might, in that case, send the
finished dubs out to the campaign manager and he or she
would hold them until the proper time.Xns tead of worrying
about redaral Express, we might send them m the
Presidential campaign ^ut —^o distribute the things and get
the things on faster.
2 You mentioned that that 85 percent of your work, or
approximately that within the last year or so, has been m
political campaigns?
A Yes, sir.
2 Is that correct?
A That is correct.
2 By that, you mean Senate and Congressional
campaigns?
A Yes, six.
2 And state campaigns?
A Yes, sir, the whole gamut.
2 Do you specialize in any particular party?
A As Republican or Democrat?
2 Yes.
A Ue really are a Republican £iin and over the years.
UNeSSIHEl
660
NAME:
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
58(4
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
HIR257000 BSr. 4i»a J-Jig«i«L: l"L.iJ page 2M
I would say, 95 percent of the wotK has been for
Republicans. He have done a feu Democrats, including ex-
Governor Hughes, Harry Hughes in naryland, and of course.
Frank Rizzo who was a Democrat in 1983. He is now a
Republican, or whatever. And I think, as I recallr my
experience. I think, I am not aware of any candidate.
Democratic candidate, we have ever handled for federal
office .
The reason is very simple. He have helped so many
Republicans win federal offices, especially in the U.S.
Senate today, that we feel we would be violating our
friendship and trust if we went back and tried to cancel a
Republican vote in the Senate with a Democratic vote, plus ~''
national parties aren't too happy.
2 The other 15 percent of your work, is that
commercial work?
A Primarily. In fact. yes. it is commercial work.
He have had. fox instance, the Hest Virginia Coal
Association contract, not really a PAC group, but special
interest group, and wa do some advertising fox them and that
«««V-a£ way back in our--with our experiences with current
Governor Arch noore when he was first elected, I think back
A.'
)5tV
In the late I960' s ./^Goveznor of Hest Virginia, wa became
more closely tied with things down there.
At least through the coal association, at some point,
661
MAHE
599
600
60 1
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
6 10
6 1 1
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
IINCLASSIFIED
HIR257000 IIIVIIK M . 1 , t ? » il II PAGE 25
ue did some tourist business and other things. Most of
that--raost beyond that, I think all the rest oi the
coraraercial. IS very sporadic.
2 How, Mr. Goodman, your agency was retained in 1985,
was It not, by an organization associated with Carl Channell
to do sorae work for that organization?
A That is correct.
2 Do you know how Mr. Channell came to retain your
agency ?
A Ue received the first call from a person by the
name of Roger Wilkins in early '85, 1985, and my father took
the call, so I wasn't aware of everything. I can't give you
first-hand knowledge. It is my understanding that Mr.
Channell had come to learn about our group because of some
of the work we had done in the past in West Virginia. I
assume that must mean work for Governor Arch Moore as
opposed to say, the coal association.
And, perhaps, he had heard other opinions I am not
aware of, but he at least heard something about us and heard
we were good at what we do, which is making television and
radio spots and that is how supposedly Mr. Uilkins was told
to, why Mr. Uilkins was told to place the call to us.
2 Oo you know Richard Miller?
A Yes, I do.
2 Uhen did you first meet Richard Miller?
iJNCii:
662
NAME :
62U
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
63U
635
636
637
638
639
6M0
6M1
6(42
603
6i|<4
6U5
6U6
647
6(«8
HXR257000 UilUUdOU lU
PAGE 26
A Oh, bovj ;
2 Did your acquaintance with him pre-date your
association with Mr. Channell? -„- ^ .^^
A Mo. it did not. We almost all-^-Mr. Miller and Mr.
Channell ^one and the same thing, ihey had separate
organizations, but we came to learn about him after we had
met Mr. Channell.
S Do you know if Mr. Miller ever had had any
association with the Robert Goodman Agency prior to the
Channell association?
A Ko , I am not aware of any association.
C Mow, rtr . Channell originally did not ask you to be
involved in a political campaign, did he?
A That is correct, he did not.
Q What did he ask you to be involved in originally?
A Originally, he talked about the contras, the
Micaraguan resistance, and he was interested--the first
discussions with us, he was interested in really promoting
their cause. Meaning, he felt that if Americans were made
more aware of the situation as it existed then in Nicaragua,
that they would be much more favorably disposed toward their
cause and all that that might entail.
So, basically, it was a discussion about a public
relations effort to •niN' lii educate Americans, to make the
resistance more familiar wA'tirthem, and secondarily, really
663
NAME :
649
650
651
652
653
65U
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
6614
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
HIR257000
UNCUSSIFiEO
PAGE 27
m concert with that, more uorthy of American support.
2 Mould you i l Bg »«t> a descrxbe that as an issue you
campaign?
A Yes , sir .
e Or public education?
A Exactly, I called it >» issue and advocacy
advertising .
2 Has your agency previously been involved in that
sort oi work, or uas this a first for the agency?
A It certainly was a first to this degree. I think
we probably--! think we did some work before I wasowith the
agency, with the American Medical Association, a PAC group,
and I am sure we have done a few others, butx^this is really
our first full-fledged experience with a public interest
group really helping them to this degree with their
)
»^ .:
communications , or basically .with their paid advertising.
)
2 With the telavision advertising campaign?
A That is right.
2 Hera you aware that other agencies had been
involved in this sort of program before?
A Hith nr. Channell?
2 No, with any special interest group.
A Yes, sic.
2 So this was a first for your agency, but it was not
a first in the industry, if you will.
IliLASSfflEO
664
NAHE:
674
67S
676
bll
678
679
680
681
682
683
6814
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
69>4
695
696
697
698
HIR2S7000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 28
That is correct, and our motivation here. Torn, was
it's very tough when you have a lot of business in the on-
'Mt _->
years
but not so much in the ofi-years« This is one way, one
direction that U»«' seemed to suggest a very nice cushion in
terras of making profits in the of£*election year cycles^ »a4
as a more on-going type of business as opposed to campaigns,
which i ha «l a very finite beginning and very ^e iy finite
ending .
S Do you recall when the first contact by Mr.
Char.nell occurred approximately?
A Hin directly?
2 Yes.
A It was something like February, as I recall,
something like February or March of 1985. I think he
contacted us or my father fairly soon after Roger Wilkins
had made the first contact.
2 Has there a meeting shortly after that?
A I believe there was.
S Did you participate in the meeting?
A I am sura I did.
Q Has that here in Washington or in Baltimore or
somewhere else?
A One or the other. Hy recollection is, we came over
and met Hx . Channell. Hell, I can't — I really can't recall,
it could have been either place.
mu%
It
665
NAHE:
699
700
70 1
702
703
70U
705
706
707
708
709
710
71 1
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
HIR257000
DNCL^SSIFlEe
PAGE
29
2 Do you recall that your agency reached an
understanding with Mr. Channell sometime early in 1985 about
some services that you were to perform?
A That is correct.
S Can you describe what that understanding was?
A The understanding was we were going to produce an
undetermined number of commercials , wa« to promote this
public education of the contra cause and > in terms of
compensation, we did charge a fee for the very first series
of spots.
At this point, we weren't sure what this relationship
was all about. In fact, I don't believe--my best %e et-
recollection is, I don't think we ever signed a contract
with Mr. Channell outlining what our duties MX^^t^ or may not
be. And the first project really came back to the original
questions. I think we charged a i(.10,000 fee which we
thought was a one-time experience, meaning we might not do
any other workj which is why we did it that way--and
commissions — which yttcS the standard 15 percent agency
commissions allowed by stations.
Q I take it in light of our discussion earlier this
morning, the commissions were to be an integral part of your
compensation?
A That is correct.
2 Pursuant to this understanding, did your agency
mM^
666
HAKE:
72U
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733
734
735
736
737
738
739
7<I0
741
7U2
7U3
744
745
746
747
748
HIR2S7000
blULnoSIFlEO
PAGE 30
perform a variety of services for Hr . Channell's
organization in 1985 and 1986?
A I am sorry, would you repeat the question?
( Question read . I
A I can't say, Tom, it is not correct to say pursuant
to that understanding, perhaps, and be accurate because
there really was no clear understanding that ue uere Mr.
Channell's ad agency and, in fact, ue uere made auare at
many different points along the uay, I think well into 1986,
that uhen Kr . Channell uould conceive of a project, where
television or radio might be involved, that he, essentially,
•h«- w ent out for l» i < li Ife uould go and solicit ideas and
proposals from more than just us, from other agencies as
uell. so ue aluays felt ue uere one spot away from either
being more endeared to his organization, or <ind ourselves
with a short-term arrangement.
fi But your agency did produce a number of spots for
Mr. Channell's organization in 1985 and 1986^
A That is correct.
Q An integral part of the compensation for your uorK
fcr those organizations uas commissions for purchasing air
time for the spots, is that correct?
A That is correct.
2 Just to follow up, Mr. Goodman, on one comment you
made, you said you uere auare that rtr . Channell. from time
wmmm
667
NAME ■
749
7S0
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
UNCUSSIFIED
HIR257000 limiil M.l.^ai II II PAGE 31
to tiraa, sought proposals from other agencies?
A That is correct.
2 What other agencies do you know performed work for
Mr. Channell's organization?
A Actually performed work?
2 Yes.
A There was. as I understand it, a production firm
out of New York, I think one of the principal's names uas
Kilo.
Blackmore or Blakenore?
Blakemore and Hhitnore, or Blakemore.
And Kilo?
A
2
A
Yes, I think that is •«- f irm, Vwe just learned about
that^I think*~oit was through the newspapers , ^ it had to do
with a project Mr. Channell wanted us to do, I think^
originally4 and 'W h e n we re jected,^because we objected to the
nature of the ad--
2 What project did you understand that to involve?
A He understood it to be a project where an ad or
series of ads would be essentially directed against Senate
aspirant, Barbara Hikulski, who was running for the Senate
in Maryland, in 1986, and being from Maryland and basically
objecting to the nature of the effort, we declined to even
make a proposal.
2 Did I correctly understand that your firm was not
iciissra
668
UNCLASSIFIED
NAHE: HIR257000 U 1 f U&.l RAJ ^ I 1 I k 1^ PAGE 32
774 involved in preparing advertisements for the Hikulski
775 campaign?
776 A That is correct.
777 2 Or you were not involved in preparing
778 advertisements for the Chavez campaign?
779 A That is correct, we were not involved.
780 . e Other than the Blakemore iirn. what other firms do
781 you know performed services?
782 A X am not aware of any other ad agencies that
783 performed services. I do know of one firm that was making a
78U pitch or made a proposal for a piece of business. called ,
785 ''Don Ringe and Associates, R-I-K-G-E, simply because I
786 think ■ m?'a t^rn't'inf showed me a script, or copy of a script,
787 that they had proposed having to do with x e s i stanc e ItR
788 Nicaragua resistance, and as I recall, that was sometime in
789 1986. , J^ist c een f a t o e d the impression we were not an agency
790 hired in perpetuity, but rather one that was going to be
79 1 evaluated on each and every proposal we made on different
792 projects Mr. Channell night be envisioning.
793 fi I ask the reporter to mark this document as Goodman
794 Deposition Exhibit 1 for identification.
795 (Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.]
796 fi Ilx . Goodnan Z have had marked as Goodman Deposition
797 Exhibit 1 for Identification what appears to be a script
798 prepared by Ringe Hedia, Inc.. dated January 28th, 1986
\mmm
669
NAME ■■
799
800
80 1
802
803
SOU
805
806
807
808
809
810
81 1
812
813
sm
815
816
817
818
819
820
821
822
823
HIR257000
UNtUSSlFlEO
PAGE 33
Would you look at that document. Is that the script you
just referred to?
A That is correct, that is the script I recall.
e Where did you get that script?
A I really can't recall who I got it from, though I
think I recalled the event, it was one of the two
fundraisers that we were invited to by Mr. Channell, either
late 1985 or early 1986. This must have been early 1986.
Just as guests of Mr. Channell because , really^ for the
reason^ according to Mr. Channell, getting to see and meet
some of his contributors, so we would get a better feel for
the types of interests we were representing in the ads we
were producing for Mr. Channell.
1 think I got that at one, at «*•* particular
fundraising event. Who I got it from, I can't recall.
2 Was this the briefing at the White House on January
30th, 1986, and the subsequent meeting at the Hay-Adams
Hotel that you are referring to?
A I received this at.* Hay-Adams Hotel, I think that
was — that seems to be the date of the meeting. As I recall,
that is correct.
e On this deposition Exhibit 1 , there is an
indication at the top that the client is TBA . Do you know
that that stands for?
A You would have to asK Ringe Media. I an not aware
iwssffe
670
NAHE
82(4
825
826
827
828
829
830
831
832
833
8314
835
836
837
838
839
8t40
8141
8>42
8143
8'4'4
8145
8(46
8U7
8(48
":::::: UNCUSSsflED
PAGE
34
2 So your recollection is someone gave this to you at
the meeting at the Hay-Adams Hotel?
A That is correct.
2 But you do not recall the person?
A I don't recall who that was.
2 Was it someone associated with tlr . Channell's
organization?
A It may have been.
2 But you are not sure?
A Mo> I an really not.
2 Did you understand that this was a proposed ad or
did you understand that this is an ad that was going to be
run?
A lly understanding, my recollection, my understanding
was that this was a proposed ad that, I assume, Mr. Channell
and his people were considering, and I am not sure how this
ad fit into the total iranework of everything else they were
trying to do on television and in their general campaign for
the Nicaraguan resistance, but I remember reading this and
■1 )
X'r^
thinking that.iis an awfully tough way to do this thing.
2 What do you mean by that?
A Wall, there were times, when In the process of
arriving at final scripts with Mr. Channell, that he would
take a much more direct and, what I call, hard-hitting
UNCLASSIFIED
671
NAKC :
849
850
85 1
852
853
8514
855
856
857
858
859
860
861
862
863
86U
865
866
867
868
869
870
87 1
872
873
HIR257000
UNCUSSSIRED
PAGE
35
approach to a TV spot, and in every case we would try to
tone that down. One, because ue ■t h i n g- i£ you pushed too
hard in making certain points like this, it looks like you
are involved more with propaganda, unsubstantiated in fact,
than simply laying out the facts of the issue. Ue also, as
we cime to learn about this program, Tom. we :ust felt the
facts, »uota inin5 the facts was enough to make the case and
^'1^^
make it fo7:cefully.
We didn't want to forcejfeed the viewer. This obviously
was a spot, I remember reading this and remember thinking,
burning crosses and schools closed, and so forth. We :ust
objected to the approach and--
2 Did you talk to Hr . Channell about this?
A About this particular ad?
2 Yes.
A Not that I recall.
2 Did you talk to him in general about his
consultation with any other advertising agencies?
A Either Hr . Channell or Dan Conrad would allude here
and there to the fact that they were seeking other
proposals. I am not sure if they ever mentioned names. We
ware will aware we weren't the only ones bidding for certain
pieces of business. It would seem Mr. Channell segwanted
most everything seemed to be on a project-by-project basis.
We didn't look at this as ^ 9^£ns <
an on-going
yHMSS'fll!)
672
HAME ■
874
875
876
877
878
879
880
881
882
883
88U
885
886
887
888
889
890
89 1
892
893
8914
895
896
897
898
.- mtmim ..
HIR257000 lll'iLSLmiiiiRIi ILLI page 36
relationship as much as ue didi* suppliers pitching -*n- every
time for cextaih projects in terms oi .ir€ when we would do it,
creatively and so forth.
Q You don't recall making any specific comments to
Mr. Channell after you saw Exhibit 1?
A No, I don't.
2 Either about this ad or about involvement of Ringe
Media.
A No, I don't.
S I ask the reporter to mark a copy of a draft
television ad for the Anti-Terrorism America Committee on
the letterhead of Arthur J. Finkelstein and Associates, as
Goodman Deposition Exhibit 2 for identification.
(Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification. ]
8 rtr . Goodman, I show you Exhibit 2. Oo you
recognize that document?
A Yes, I do.
e
A
and my recollection of this was Mr. Channell told me that an
associate or someona who worked for the Arthur Finkelstein
Associates polling firm had an idea for a spot and he
thought it had some merit. He wanted me to talk to this
person. I can't recall off-hand who it was. He sounded
like he was a very sharp and interesting person, and he told
How did you happen to receive that document?
Ue received it by .d«*T^ on our of f ice -Cv^t- machine ;
UNCLASSm
673
NAME :
899
900
90 1
902
903
904
90S
906
907
908
909
910
91 1
912
913
9 m
915
916
917
9 18
9 19
920
921
922
923
HIR257000
DNWSSIFIEO
PAGE 37
me his concept and I said why don't you g u^ ra« a copy so ue
can take a look at it, and that is what ue did.
2 The Finkelstein firm was not generally involved in
preparing copy for ads or assisting in preparing copy for
ads?
A That is correct, this is the only time I can recall
their having been involved, had any kind of input, offering
any input in the ad process.
2 Was the Finkelstein firm working with your firm in
its capacity as a polling organization on the work for Mr.
Channell .
A Ho, they were not.
2 Were you aware that Hr . Channell had retained the
Finkelstein firm?
A I believe I was aware that they had retained
Finkelstein. I know we heard they retained some polling
firm, I am not sure. Obviously, at this time, putting two
and two together, I knew they had hired a polling firm. Hr .
Channell told us that.
C You have no recollection of making any use of the
product of the Finkelstei.i firm in connection with your
work?
A No, I don't. May I also offer this script, as I
recall, was designed to use the President as a rallying
point. That his popularity at that point was awfully high
ONCLASSiFlEO
82-710 0-88-23
674
NAHE :
924
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
934
935
936
937
938
939
940
941
942
943
944
945
946
947
948
HIR2S7000
UNCLASSiFit'J
PAGE 38
in all public opinion polls, and I remember the concept here
was just to make the best use o£ the President.
Q How. Mr. Goodman, after the initial discussions
with Hr . Channell in early, is it 1985, that ue have been
discussing, your agency did prepare a number of
advertisements for Mr. Channell?
A That is correct.
Q I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
Exhibit 3 for Identification, a document produced by nr .
Goodman's counsel, headed at the top, ACT/NEPL/Sentinel ,
Complete to Date, 2/24/87.
[Exhibit Ho. 3 was marked for identification.]
2 Hr . Goodman, I show you Exhibit 3 and ask you if
you recognize that document?
A Yes, I do.
2 Did you either prepare or cause that document to be
prepared?
A I didn't^but someone within the agency did, and it
was a compilation, actually trying to -g** what they caM a
menu of spots that we had produced for the various
organizations controlled by Mr. Channell.
2 Why was that document prepared?
A In looking at the date, February 24th. 1987, *. ( __
wanted to make sure we had a complete record of all the
spots we had ever produced for his organization because, at
UNClftSSiFIED
675
NAME-
949
950
951
952
953
954
9SS
956
957
958
959
960
961
962
963
96U
965
966
967
968
969
970
97 1
972
973
UNWSSIFIED
HIR257000 IllWill ■M.l.tBI 1 V I I PAGE 39
that point, wa had been made auaie of the Iran contra affair
and felt--and had been asked--ac tually been called by a lot of
reporters at one point in the proctss, and felt it would be
best if ue started by doing some wo rk on exactly what ue had
done for Hr . Channell's organization, and this was part of
the effort to refresh our memory and also provide this, if
ever requested, to anyone that was interested.
2 Did Mr. Channell or anyone in his organization ask
that this be prepared?
A It is possible, Tom, I can't really — can't recall.
I thought this was only for our purposes . He might have
made that request.
Q It is your recollection now that this was prepared
as a result of an internal initiative within your firm, and
not in response to some request by Hr . Channell?
A I believe so. That is my best recollection,
th o ug jrb- I won't be surprised if, at some point in this
process, they had requested a copy of all the spots they had
ever done. I know that w« were interested in getting this
record for ourselves. It may not have been exclusive to
other things .
fi I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
Exhibit M for identification, a group of pages produced by
counsel for Hr . Goodman, which are on the letterhead of the
Robert Goodman agency. Inc., and appear to be scripts for
UNCLASSIFIED
676
KAME:
974
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
983
98>l
985
986
987
988
989
990
991
992
993
99t«
995
996
997
998
mmmid
HIR257000 iillfi^SS Hali.'^BrSr il PAGE UO
various television advertisements.
[Exhibit Mo. 4 was marked for identification.!
Q Kr . Goodman, would you examine Exhibit 4, okay?
Look through the pages and just confirm that these are
scripts of advertisements that uere prepared by your agency.
A Yes / they are .
S Kou, Kr . Goodman, there appears to be a number of
scripts in Exhibit 4 for advertisements which are not
included on the list which is Exhibit 3.
A Yes.
fi And from my comparison, and we can just go through
these quickly, four pages, there is a script for an
advertisment concerning a wounded freedom fighter.
A Yes.
S Continuing on, there is a script entitled,
•'Flagship'*, a script entitled, ' ' Iwo Jima'*.
A That is right.
2 A script entitled, ''Our Jobs'', and several
others .
A Yes.
S Does that indicate that you prepared scripts for a
number of advertisements which were never completed as
advertisements?
A That is correct.
2 And the actual advertisements that were completed
Kiissres
677
UNCLASSiRED
NAHE- HIR257000 U II tJI-r^&JIU I I I ■_ U PAGE 41
999 are the ones that are included on Exhibit 3, is that
1000 correct?
1001 A To the best of our recollection and our research,
1002 yes, all of those were the ones that were completed.
1003 2 By completed, what you mean is that the
1004 advertisement was filmed and was put in a final form for
1005 airing on a television station?
1006 A That is correct.
1007 e Is that correct?
1008 A That is corzact.
1009 MR. SCOTT: Are you saying also it was actually
1010 aired on television, or just prepared to air on television?
10 11 MR. FRYMAM: Now, I think the question was, it was
10 12 prepared to air, not that it was actually aired, but the
1013 list of scripts that are included on Exhibit 3 are. in your
101U view, the advertisements that were put in final form so that
10 15 they were ready to air?
10 16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1017 BY ME. FRYMAH:
1018 e Hharaas in Exhibit t , there are a number of
1019 additional scripts that were never filmed or put in such
1020 final fora?
1021 A Yes. that is correct.
1022 fi Is that correct?
1023 A That is correct.
iwssife
678
NAME-
10214
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
1030
103 1
1032
1033
lOSK
1035
1036
1037
1038
1039
10M0
1041
10142
lOMS
lOMM
1045
1046
1047
1048
HIR257000
llNCLHSSlFiEO
PAGE
42
2 And inthe case uheze there is an advertisement
identified on Exhibit 3, to take as an example, a Korean
airliner, if you would then turn to Exhibit 4 on the second
page, you will see there is a script headed, ''Korean
Airliner''. Mow, does that indicate to you that the second
page of Exhibit 4 is the audio script?
A Yes.
2 For the finished advertisement, ''Korean
Airliner*', that appears on the list, which is Exhibit 37
A Yes, but with one word of explanation^ This was
A5
"!>' .-.i
what we have described in the pastra very p l ione Lie" account ,
just keeping scripts current when we would make changes, say
from original script wording of the original script to
certain revisions, was a hard job at best and there might be
some scripts between the actual final audio copy on the
finished spot on the list you provided and the copy that you
see on a particular script on our agency television
stationery .
It is possible there could be a few discrepancies even
in the wording. This doesn't mean this script might not be
the final script. In most cases, it will be.
2 In most cases it will be the final script and so m
situations where there were variations, is it fair to say
that the variations would be editing variations rather than
a complete rewriting of the script?
^!m^ss!fffJ
679
liNMSSro
PAGE 43
NAME^ HIR257000
10149 A Yes.
1050 2 If there uete a rewriting of the script, what would
1051 the procedure be?
1052 A Well, the modus operandi was to prepare a new
1053 script with > final copy and so forth, but I am sure there
10514 is at least one instance where, because again not this
loss particular account, but the fact we are also in a political
f- . •_ .'
1056 year with all these other campaigns going on, that. nay he^
u^^ ^ _■ : -
1057 in one case or more, these weren't kept wb«^ ue say current,
1058 meaning the final actual revision would not specifically
1059 match the final video spot you would see listed on Exhibit
1060 number 3.
1061 In other words, I couldn't testify that this particular
1062 script was actually the final word %«— «i;word to a ''T'" you
1063 would see reflected on the final list on Exhibit 3.
IO6I4 2 To summarize what I understand your answer to be,
1065 these are the scripts that were proposed by your agency for
1066 these advertisements 7
1067 A That is correct.
1068 2 And the final shooting script may have had some
1069 final editorial changes?
1070 A Yes.
107 1 2 If there are to be a complete rewrite of the
1072 script, the normal procedure is that there would be another
1073 shoot reflecting that rewrite?
mmmE
680
NAHE:
107U
1075
1076
1077
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
108U
1085
1086
1087
1088
1089
1090
1091
1092
1093
1094
1095
1096
1097
1098
HIR257000
A
Q
A
e
minute?
ONCLASSIFIED
PAGE UU
That is correct.
Is that correct?
Yes. Thanks for helping me with that.
I ask the reporter to mark--
HR. SCHWAIT: Could ue go off the record for a
MR. FRYHAH: Yes.
[Discussion off the record. I
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 You have something further to ad to your answer,
Mr . Goodman?
A Yes, sir. I would like to point out that beyond
just copy changes, in many instances, we would have
disclaimer changes as well. As you will -KiiuU in the script-.
we were talking about in Exhibit U, *.ff the second page,
script commercial number 302, called, ''Korean Airliner'',
we had two different disclaimers for that particular spot*
Disclaimer A, paid for by Barbara Newington, through
American Conservative Trust, Disclaimer B, was paid for by
the American Conservative Trust as a service to the people
of America.
Actually, Tom, a better example* wnd e is > anH ma would
have a spot that was scripted and wa were told for
argument's sake^to be funded, ^paid for, and that would be
identified on the spot by the American Conservative Trust.
WUSSIFIED
681
NAME: HIR257000
yNCLASSIFIED
PAGE US
1099
1 100
110 1
1 102
1 103
1 lOU
1 105
1 106
1 107
1 108
1 109
1110
1111
1112
1113
I 1 1U
II IS
1116
1117
1118
1119
1 120
1121
1 122
1 123
Then, subsequent to that, ue would get instructions from He.
Channell, or one of his associates, no, in fact this
particular spot in question would not have a disclaimer from
the Mational Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty or
Sentinel. And in mora than one instance, this happened and
we got to the point, soma points in this process, Tom, of
asking, make a point of asking Hr . Channell or one of his
associates th* question, well, who is going to pay for this
spot? Who is going to be the group ua are going to identify
in the disclaimer on the spot as having funded this thing?
So i-fc becam'a very sansitiva to that because wa just had a
feeling that Mr. Channell wasn't always Padding on which
organization was going to be used as the organization
identified on the particular TV shot. Was that clear?
2 Let me just put a few follow-up questions to you,
Hr . Goodman. What do you mean exactly when you use the term
disclaimer? Is this a technical term that is used in the
advertising industry?
A Yes.
2 Or a term of art that you usa in tha industry?
A Yas, sir. A disclaimer is a statement of
rasponsibilityj primarily for tha funding to hava «-
particular talavision spot »«<»- political campaign. In a
federal campaign, you can't put a talavision spot on tha air
without identifying tha group or groups that, not only
UNWSiflEO
682
NAME'
1 12(4
1 125
1 126
1 127
1 128
1 129
1 130
1131
1 132
1 133
1 134
1 135
1 136
1 137
1 138
1 139
1 mo
1 1U1
1 142
1 143
1 144
1 145
1146
1 147
1148
HIR2S7000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 46
authorized that spot be aired, but actually paid for it. In
a couple cases there is more than one group.
There were instances in 1986 when the National
Republican Senate Committee would be paying for a commercial
oe for a particular Senate candidate and the disclaimer
might read something like, paid for by the National
Republican »r^ Senate Committee, authorized by friends of
T%T.
.)1\ •-.-J
Paula Hawkins, whatever , name of the committee was, as it is
a rule of the industry, and I don't know if it is., FCC or
TEC, 1«e have to identify sponsorship.
Q Does the disclaimer have to be both in sound and
sight? In other words, does there have to be both audio and
a picture of the disclaimer, or can it be one ot the other,
or does it have to be one or the other?
A Okay, in television, it has to be a visible
disclaimer. Now, if you want to, you can make it, audio as
well as a visual disclaimer. You have to see the
disclaimer, and the rules governing that, in general, are
1), it has to be readable, and 2) it has to be on for a
minimum amount of time, which I think is three seconds. In
a radio spot, it is different obviously.
Q You referred to different organizations that Mr.
Channell was associated with, and maybe we should clear that
up on the record now. You mentioned three organizations, I
believe, the American Conservative Trust; which is also
UNCLASSIFIED
683
NAME :
1 1149
1 150
115 1
1 152
1 153
1 154
1 155
1 156
1 157
1 158
1 159
1 160
1161
1 162
1 163
1 161
1 165
1 166
1 167
1 168
1 169
1 170
1171
1 172
1 173
HIR2S7000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE
17
known as ACT, the national Endowment for the Preservation of
Liberty, which is also known as KEPL.
A Yes , sir .
2 And Sentinel?
A Yes , sir .
S Now, were those the three Channell organizations
that your firm dealt with?
A That is correct.
e What did you understand was the difference between
those organizations?
A At the time, the first organization we did any
commercials for was ACT. Then at some point, really without
watching, we were told on a certain spot, I forget which
spot, that the sponsoring organization is not ACT, it is
HEPL, and at some point in 1986, we actually did »*»?aargn
for Sentinel.
Ue were never told by Mr. Channell or anyone in his
organization, specifically, what the differences were from
one organization to the next.
Q Did you have any understanding about the difference
in the legal structure of the organizations?
A Ue never reviewed the charter^ never were given a
detailed explanation of the differences «^ the groups
We
0"'\\ -s^
just had a general sense that these were all^f>described this
once as a developer who had many different subcontractors
m''^\
^^»\
684
NAME:
1 174
1 175
1 176
1 177
1 178
1 179
1 180
1 181
1 182
1 183
1 18U
1 185
1 186
1 187
1 188
1 189
1 190
1191
1192
1193
1 194
1195
1196
1 197
1198
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 48
underneath his wing, and we just saw all these organizations
as organizations, basically, run and controlled by Mr.
Channell .
2 Did you have any understanding about the tax status
of any ai these organizations, and particularly, I nean, did
you have any understanding as to whether contributions to
one organization were tax deductible, whereas contributions
to another were not tax deductible?
A I absolutely had no understanding » VBr those kinds
oi. differences. In fact, if I may add, the first time I was
made aware in any Kind of detail of the differences between
the various groups, among the various groups, was in January
of this year, in January of 1987, when an associate of Kr .
Channell's, Cliff Smith, sat down--wa had lunch at one point,
and he said, now, maybe I should tell you what the
differences are, or explain each and every one of our
organizations .
At that point, ha gave m« a little more detailed
explanation of these three organizations and all the others
that Mr. Channell supposedly controlled. Just haybe to
complete the answer — I did send different types, as in my
role as media director ,.< notices to station managers where we
tried to get clearance or access for air time, and I think
in those, I remember saying something rtl^MFto the effect.
The American Conservative Trust was a public interest group
llHtiiSSife
685
NAME ■
1 199
1200
120 1
1202
1203
120U
1205
1206
1207
1208
1209
1210
1211
1212
1213
121U
1215
1216
12 17
1218
1219
1220
1221
1222
1223
HIk257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 49
dedicated to supporting the Administration in foreign policy
MrtT which is as specific as I knew that to be.
I remember in reviewing these documents in 1987, uhen
this whole thing was coming about, that I saw another notice
written by someone who worked for us .n Teresa Jacobs, who
is Karola Jacobs' daughter--it is a very family oriented
business top to bottom--and I think she was sending the same
kind of letter to stations about the National Endowment for
Preservation of Liberty and she described them in just the
same terms and said at the bottom something like, NEPL is
just like ♦«' American conservative -trust, something to that
Pox.- ►-.\-'
^-
effect .
Everyone in the agency >ra<— e eall y no feeling what the
differences were.
2 Hho Bade the decision as to which organizations
should be identified in the disclaimer?
A nr . Channell or one of his associates.
fi Did youz agency have any role in making that
decision?
A Kevez. naybe someHhat relevant to the discussion
is, I think, on two or three occasions, I was asked by Hr .
Channell or one of his associates to contact their lawyer.
I understand their lawyer was Curt Herge. is that right?
fi Yes.
A Whan Hr. Channell would have approved certain copy.
HNClHSSfflEO
686
KAHE:
122M
1225
1226
1227
1228
1229
1230
1231
1232
1233
123M
1235
1236
1237
1238
1239
12U0
1241
1212
12U3
12(4><
1245
1246
1247
1248
HIR257000
HNtiAssro
PAGE SO
but he would say something to the effect, well, maybe you
should run it by nz . Heige to make sure it is okay and tell
him bho the sponsoring organization was, which I felt showed
nr . Channell, in our opinion, was somewhat meticulous in
trying to make or ensure that certain spots funded by
certain organizations could be funded by certain
organizations and so forth.
S Did you have any understanding of the criteria that
either Mr. Channell or nr . Herge were using?
A Ho.
S To determine which organization sponsored which
advertisements ?
A No, I had no specifics; had no specific
understanding of that.
Q Why were you concerned about their being meticulous
or not being meticulous?
A I was not concerned about that, just an impression
I had, in giving you a, maybe, perception of how we viewed
this particular client.
S From the agency's point of view, Mr. Goodman, what
was the relationship between the client identification on
the script and the disclaimer? For example, just looking at
the first page of Exhibit 4, it indicates that the client is
The American Conservative Trust and then there are three
alternative disclaimers there. Is there necessarily, from
yNMSltlFJ
687
MAHE :
1249
1250
125 1
1252
1253
12514
1255
1256
1257
1258
1259
1260
126 1
1262
1263
126U
1265
1266
1267
1268
1269
1270
127 1
1272
1273
HIR257000
UNCUSSIFIEO
PAGE 51
your point of view, any relationship between the
identification of the client on the script and the
disclaimer that will appear in tht advertisement?
A Theoretically, yes. I say theoretically because
arising--one of the results of our confusion about which
group IS doing what spot, what have you, is that m a number
of cases, we might identify on the first script the client
IS T'le American Conservative Trust. Then we might learn,
subsequently, the sponsoring organization was going to be
NEPL. In those cases, I think I recall seeing a number of
cases of a script where the disclaimer would say, paid for
by NEPL and the clients identified at the topj, American
Conservative Trust.
What probably happened there was a revision and Carole
Jacobs, or whoever was doing the typing, had failed to
change the client's name to match the disclaimer.
2 Has your billing done to the separate
organizations, i.e., was billing done separately to the
American Conservative Trust, International Endowment for the
Preservation of Liberty, and Sentinel?
A Hy understanding was the billing, meaning the
invoices, went art projects — yas ^w«s billed to^particular
organization .
2 How did your agency determine which organization to
bill for which advertisement?
wir^rd
688
...= o.i)NfMSSiF!EO
HAME: HIR257000 I 81^12? rS^.l-'J^i* f| S»« »^ PAGE 52
127U A Well, ue always worked on the assumption that
1275 whoever was identiiied in the disclaimer as a sponsoring
1276 organization was the one we would bill.
1277 2 So that was the basis for the identification of the
1278 billing organization?
1279 A That is correct.
1280 2 So, if there were the case that the client was
1281 identified as The American Conservative Trust, but the
1282 disclaimer on the advertisement read national Endowment for
1283 the Preservation of Liberty, it is your understanding that
128U the practice within the firn would be to bill the National
1285 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, is that correct?
1286 A That is correct.
1287 e I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
1288 Exhibit 5 for identification a document produced by counsel
1289 for Mr. Goodman, headed American Conservative Trust. On the
1290 first line it states Congressional insert.
1291 [Exhibit No. 5 was narked for identification.!
1292 2 Kr . Goodman, I show you Goodman Deposition Exhibit
1293 5 for identification and ask you if you recognize that
129M document?
1295 A Yes, I do.
1296 S What is that document?
1297 A It was prepared by someone in our agency to reflect
1298 the subjects that were going to be used, or would be the
689
mmmm
HknE HIR257000 V B 1 W i-i J*? «J I i S 4_ U PAGE 53
1299 focus of television commercials that ue were proposing to do
1300 for The American Conservative Trust, and this particular
1301 series of spots--if I may take a raoment--
1302 (Discussion off the record. 1
1303 THE HITMESS: I am sorry. Yes, this was a sheet
1304 reflecting the subjects of spots that uere going to be done
1305 invoking the SDI issue, also known as Star Wars, as an issue
1306 that might make some kind of difference in political
1307 campaigns that were on-going. I know, at least I can say,
1308 that was the case in the first two subjects identified, which
1309 are. Tim Uirth, who was the then Congressman from the state
1310 of Colorado^, subsequently 4 won election to the U.S. Senate,
1311 and Alan Cranston, who was running for re-election^ and_*»rt-
1312 successfully for the U.S. Senate in the state of California.
1313 BY MR. FRYMAN:
13 14 Q This sheet, you say, was prepared by someone uithm
1315 your agency?
1316 A I believe it was, yes. I think, Tom. it was
1317 probably prepared for whoever it was that actually went in
1318 and produced these particular spots.
1319 2 If you will look, Mr. Goodman, at Exhibit 4 and
1320 particularly the advertisements dated October 17th, 1986,-
1321 your commercial number 1010.
1322 A Okay.
1323 2 If you will look at that script for ''Back Down''
mmwm
690
NAME:
1321*
1325
1326
1327
1328
1329
1330
1331
1332
1333
133<4
1335
1336
1337
1338
1339
UtO
1341
13(42
13>43
13U14
1345
1346
1347
1348
yNCmSSiFlED
HIR257000 ||i>|l|,B 21 A-'^irBa' II PAGE 54
and then look at , Exhibit 5, nr . Goodman, does Exhibit 5
appear to you to be related to the ''Back Down*' script?
A Yes.
e Does this appear to be some additional copy to
tailor the ''Back Down'' script to a particular campaign?
A Okay, the sheet marked Exhibit 5, my recollection
is it was to be used for ten second spots based on the same
-""'lii "■j"^-''-- <•''■»'«■» and 111 *' intent as the script you have
identified as ''Back Down'* commercial number 1010,
10 10 is
a 30 second version oi this idea, and Exhibit 5 is the ten
second — what we call ten-second ,A»«4t' o£ the 30 second.
2 Going back to Exhibit 3, which is the list of the
completed spots, under the ACT list there is an indication
of a ''Back Down'* spot being prepared for Cranston, Uirth,
Bryant, Uright> and Coleman. Is it your understanding that
those ''Back Down*' spots are related to the script for
commercial number 1010 which is a part of Exhibit 4?
A Yes, that is my understanding.
2 And does Exhibit S appear to you to be the script
for the shorter ten-second spots that are reflected on that
list under the title, ''Remember''?
A That is correct.
fi For the same raises?
A Yes, sir.
2 I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
wm®^-^
691
KAnE :
1349
1350
1351
1 352
1353
135U
1355
1356
1357
1358
1359
1360
1361
1362
1363
1364
1365
1366
1367
1368
1369
1370
1371
1372
1373
HIR257000
UNCLASSIFIED
PAGE 55
Exhibit 6 for idantif ication a 13 page script produced by
counsel for Mr. Goodman headed, ''The Nicaraguan Contrast
An Update Narration and Voice Script 10/10/85''.
[Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification. 1
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 6 for
identification. Do you recognize that document?
A Ves, I do.
2 Hhat is that document?
A This was a script that was prepared at Mr.
Channell's request for a film that *f wanted to do on the
Nicaraguan resistance, and my recollection was that this was
r f -i 1 1 - ^ -i prepared . and produced after we had been shown a
film that had already been finished, and our understanding
was it was either filmed or coordinated, or one way or
another, by Hr . Miller and his associates , on the situation
in Nicaragua.
Ue were asked to view the film with Hr . Channell one
day, I believe we were up in our office outside of
Baltimore, and not be indelicate, but the reviews from that
particular film were not »«9«-,' fTiey were very disappointing,
I think it was really nor only they did not get the point
across^ they were trying to in this particular film, but.-a«
one of the more amateurish attempts at a moving piece of
film documentary we had seen in quite a time.
X shouldn't have used the word amate
urish'. it was not
s:
OL.i
692
NAME:
13714
1375
1376
1377
1378
1379
1380
1381
1382
1383
138(4
1385
1386
1387
1388
1389
1390
1391
1392
1393
13914
1395
1396
1397
1398
HIR257000
UNMSSIFIED
PAGE 56
the best effort.- So, we weze asked to *f iuu it. We gave Mr.
Channell our assessments, basically, we don' t really like
this at all, and he said, can you do something about it? Ue
said, we will try. So, Ron Hilner went about the task, and
he wrote the script, which my recollection is, we eventually
~produced--f rom which we eventually produced a film called,
''The Nicaraguan Contras Update''.
2 Do you know whose handwriting is on these pages?
A That is Hr . Hilner's handwriting .»ft^' refer ring to
visuals^ he saw to match the copy.
2 Now, it is written at the left hand of the first
page title of, ''The Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua an
Update' ' ?
A Yes.
fi If you will look again at Exhibit 3, the first item
appears to be, ''The Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua' ' --is it
your understanding that this was the shooting script for it--
A Yes.
fi First item on Exhibit 3, that correct? I ask the
repottax to mark as Goodman Oaposition Exhibit 7 for
identification a series of sheets produced by counsel for
nx . Goodman concerning various advertisements identified in
Exhibit 3 which contain a combination of text of the
advertisements and photographs.
[Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.]
ONClASSlFiFO
693
NAME ■■
1399
moo
lUO 1
1402
1403
1404
1405
1406
1407
1408
1409
1410
1411
1412
1413
1414
1415
14 16
1417
1418
1419
1420
142 1
1422
1423
HIR257000 IBS'S^JlBnWS!! :»-»/ PAGE 57
2 Kc . Goodman, uould you examine the pages that are
contained m Exhibit 7 and tell rae if you recognize those
pages ?
A Yes, we do--I are sorry--y6s, I do.
2 Off the record.
(Discussion off the record. 1
BY MR. FRYHAH:
Do you recognize those pages?
Yes .
And were they prepared by your agency?
Yes , they were .
2
A
e
A
2
A
How would you describe these pages?
In the ad business, tKey have a thing called.
•'story board>' ' or ''story boarding'*, and traditionally
what happens before you actually go out and produce an ad,
you will go out with an »**i-»-fc- conception of each and every
visual f rame--trtw:«^i frame sometimes with •- copy that goes
with it that you present to a client so that he or she can
get a good *«*i of how that spot is going to go and see
specifically hou copy matches visuals.
In this case, we did it somewhat in reverse. We, per
Hr . Channell's request or one of his associates, we would do
these after a spot had been filmed, after it had been
produced,,and Ron Milner, in our agency, would go home at
night and put this spot up on his VCR and freeze-frarae it--
694
KAHE :
1424
1425
1426
1427
1428
1429
1430
1431
1432
1433
1434
1435
1436
1437
1438
1439
1440
1441
1442
1443
1444
1445
1446
1447
1448
UNCUSSIFIEI
HIR257000 IIIVHll JMlllISS II IB PAGE 58
at different tira^s take out his camera and shoot pictures
frame-by-frame. It wasn't the most professional thing in
the world, perhaps, but it worked and we would then take
those pictures, just take a piece with the appropriate copy,
and with the pictures in the spot, and would get camera-
ready art done for these pieces--then send--I think we would
then send, in most cases, copy of the camera-ready art to
Mr. Channell or, in many cases, rtr . Conrad, who would then
approve it and say, that looks great, then take^camera-ready
art and have it reproduced, generally, in volumes of, I
think, 500 pieces at a time.
For each spot they wanted 500 copies — glossy copies of
these particular wha t- we call ''story-boards'*.
2 Did they indicate to you what use they intended to
make of these?
A Yes. On more than one occasion, he indicated they
were going to be used in one form or another for
fundraising. They would be sent or given--*r^ one of the
Other* to the contributors to let them know •w)v«-tr about the
)
spots that were actually on the air or going on the air.
He were told this was for fundraising purposes.
Q Would the text in these ''story-boards'' be taken
from the scripts which are included in Exhibit 4?
A Yes, sir.
Q How, your initial zAtentlon by the Channell
mimm
695
NAHE :
1449
mso
ms 1
1452
1453
14SM
1455
1456
1457
1458
1459
1460
1461
1462
1463
1464
1465
1466
1467
1468
1469
1470
1471
1472
1473
yNCLASSIRED
HIR257000 IJC t CJL.C ^UOII i^U PA<~ 59
organizations was for an issue advocacy campaign related to
Nicaragua, is that correct?
A That IS correct.
2 In 1985 and 1986, from your knowledge of the work
for this client, would you say that most of your agency's
work was dona in connection with that issue advocacy
campaign?
A Meaning in Nicaragua?
2 Meaning the Nicaraguan-related campaign.
A That is correct.
2 You did some work for other projects for Mr.
Channell?
A Some SDI--most of it was dedicated to the Nicaraguan
resistance, that is correct.
2 Turning again to Exhibit 3, which is the list of
completed advertisements, can you go through that list and,
if necessary feel free to refer to Exhibit 4 or Exhibit 7 if
you need to, and identify the advertisements that were
related in any way to the Nicaragua campaign?
A Okay. The first--
2 If you will read the name for the record .
A Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua, which was the 13
iiinute, 16 second f ilm--rreedom ican' t ;i**rk--Korean Airliner,
Party's Over, McDonald Hemorial--ncOonald Message--
S Any others under the —
UNC
696
NAHE ■■
H47U
1475
1476
1477
1478
1479
1480
1481
1482
1483
1484
1485
1486
1487
1488
1489
1490
149 1
1492
1493
1494
1495
1496
1497
1498
HIR257000
UNCLASS1FI[I
PAGE
60
A No others listed under ACT.
2 So the others under ACT, Morning oi Peace, related
to what?
A That related to the President's trip, and really
talking here about the threat of nuclear war and trying to
make the world safer for everybody--Morning of Peace profiles
a little girl waking up in the morning hoping for -Uve day
and many more days of a nuclear-free world. We were :ust
cheering the President on using the SDI issue, »r- using this
issue of nuclear peace.
2 Then there is the series of ads listed on Exhibit 3
under ACT headed. Remember and Back Down, which we have
already reviewed.
A Yes, sir.
2 And those related to the Congressional campaigns in
the fall of 1986?
A That is correct.
MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question.
I don't think we have established any of those related to
any Congressional campaign. I think they established they
related to th« SDI issue and I don't think we have any of
these that were directly related to a political campaign.
BY MR. FRYMAM!
2 Let ma ask the question. Did they relate to
political campaigns in the fall of 1986?
Mmsim
697
NAME:
1499
1500
150 1
1502
1503
1S0U
150S
1506
1507
1508
1509
1510
151 1
1512
1513
1514
1515
1516
1517
1518
1519
1520
1521
1522
1523
HIR257000
uNCUssm
PAGE 61
A That is a good question. It was our understanding
from Mr. Channall that the SDI issue was a salient, perhaps,
(iev-jrs-xvB',issue in the fall campaigns. Ue had done work on
the SDI issue previous to that with Horning of Peace and
others. You have to ask Mr. Channell, specifically, uhat
uas going through his mind uith these spots. Our impression
certainly these were being used--certainly they were aired in
the last week or two of the carapaign--in our case one place--
Color ado--very clear to us--this was luuiiiiiTy -just promoting
SDI issues for the sake of the issue, it had other
ramifications .
2 Was it your und«zstanding that these ads were
directed to try to defeat particular candidates?
A Well, in the case of the one spot that actually uas
aired in this whole series in Colorado--
8 That was with regard to Wirth?
^ wH_~' t_ '^u «; —
A Yes. sir. It ir«rs very clear to us that uas the
intention of Hr . Channel!. I don't know what his intention
uas. For instance, I see the same problem with Mr. Cranston
even though we nevez got to the point of putting that on
television. I can't recall with the other three uhat the
intention was. I don't Know if they uere involved in a very
close campaign or not. 1% that was really ft salient here .
e Of the five that were prepared or the five that are
identified here relating to five candidates, that being
698
NAME ■■
152U
1525
1526
1527
1528
1529
1530
1531
1532
1533
153(4
1535
1536
1537
1538
1539
15<40
1541
1542
1543
1544
1545
1546
1547
1548
yNCUSSIflED
HIR2S7000 112118. « £J '%.'4II 1% ii PAGE 62
Cranston, Wirth, Bryant, Wright, and Coleman, the only ad
that ran was in the Uiith campaign?
A That is correct, and there were two ads for the
Uirth campaign.
2 A 30-second ad and a ten-second ad?
A That is correct.
2 Turning back again to Exhibit 3, Mr. Goodman, if
you will look at the advertisements under the heading, NEPL,
if you would identify which of those advertisements concern
the Nicaraguan issue?
A Well, again you see listed--the two spots listed
under ACT called, McDonald Memorial and McDonald Message. A
spot called. Facts, They Are Us, Letter, Flag--I don't see
the script for this--I am pretty sura the spot review
goes--ThroM Money, Terrorist Inf luence-R--revised--
2 On the script for Refugees goes, if you would look
in Exhibit 4 under the date of February 19th, 1986,
commercial number 6- "n-^ "
A Yes, sir. In fact, that wn^ Refugees did relate to
Nicaraguan resistance.
2 Throw Money?
A Terrorist Influence-R, meaning revised, Helicopters-
R, denoting it was revised--Reconnaisance , True Colors, and
Nicaraguan Update.
2 And just to make sure that the record is clear, Mr.
699
HIR257000
PAGE 63
NAME :
1549 Goodman, in the group of advertisements listed under NEPL,
1550 the ones that did not relate to Nicaragua were uhich?
1551 A Okay--thank you--Presidani ' s Oath, Will They Hait
1552 also was not involved m that issue.
1553 e Mow, on Exhibit 3 again, the advertisements listed
1554 under Sentinel, which of those related to Nicaragua?
1555 A All of then, all the ones listed.
1556 2 Mr. Goodman, do you recall--did Oliver North ever
1557 provide any assistance in the preparation of any of the
1558 advertisements that are reflected in Exhibit 3 through 7?
1559 A He did not. His office, however, on one occasion
1560 did provide us with some film footage that was arranged for
156 1 initially through Mr. Channell and/or some of his
1562 associates, but we never had any contact with Oliver North
1563 that in any way, to our knowledge, in •^^mr way had impact on
1564 what-^how the scripts read or .choice of visuals or anything
1565 having to do with the ads themselves.
1566 Q What was the advertisement that you were just
1567 referring to?
1568 A Theca was an adv«rtisement--well , there w eie some
1569 film footage wa were looking for, which was some footage of
1570 the new Soviet issue, MI helicopters, I think it was, HI
1571 2i«'s--sorry I can't recollect. It is the new super gunship
1572 that the President and others have alluded to, and in
1573 discussing the increasing militarization in Nicaragua under
Ipi AC'^iniT!
ntij
700
!Ek:
NAME
157U
1S75
1576
1577
1578
1579
1580
1581
1582
1583
15814
1585
1586
1587
1588
1589
1590
159 1
1592
1593
1594
1595
1596
1597
1598
HIR257000 ^jiflj^l^OiTir
President Ortega ^-fHHl we asked, as we had on a number of
PAGE
6U
occasions. Ton, to iind--get sone ideas where we could find
certain kinds oi footage.
Kr . Channel! said one of his associates said something
to the effect, maybe we can help you here and eventually the
result of that--he put us in touch with Fawn Hall, Hr .
North's assistant, and she said that she had some footage
that we were looking f or« she would be sending it to us .
Now, as far as where that footage came from, I know that I
was not involved personally in the discussion, initial
discussion--it might have been rtr . Uilner, where it was
actually coning from.
Though I have talked to him and I an not sure he is
totally sure either. But, it did cone iron Faun Hall and
she mailed it^ She nessengered it or Federal Expressed it
over to us, and eventually it was used in one or two of the
spots you see listed on Exhibit 3.
8 Was one of the spots entitled. Helicopters?
A It was.
fi And youx knowledge of this cones fron conversations
with Hx . Hllnex or do you have other independent knowledge?
A I had at least one conversation with Mr. Channell
about the need for this kind of footage, and ny
understanding is Mx . Hilner also had at least one
conversation with Hx . Channell or sonebody else, and I had
mmimi
701
KAnC :
1S99
1600
160 1
1602
1603
160U
1605
1606
1607
1608
1609
16 10
16 11
1612
1613
16 14
1615
16 16
1617
1618
1619
1620
1621
1622
1623
jWiiLMhi ill
HIR2S7000 (tErTJS^ !>* .^ ft n -^ ;- 3 B 2 Li 1 PAGE 65
at least one conversation with Faun Hall to, essentially, to
a-range for the delivery of footage she, at that point, had
in her possession.
2 In your conversation with Mr. Channell, did he say
that you could obtain this footage from Colonel North's
office or Fawn Hall, or anything to that effect?
A I have no recollection of that, no I don't. He may
have said that, I just don't recall that.
C What is your source of information as to uhy
Colonel North's office was contacted, is this Mr. Hilner
reporting to you, or is there some other source of
inf ornation?
A Ron and I both had received calls about this
particular issue, this particular film footage. If the
question is, uhy would we call Colonel North's office and
talk to, in this case. Faun Hall, ue were directed to do so
by Mr. Channell.
2 You were not directed, you don't recall Mr.
Channell directing you to do this?
A I don't recall him telling me to uorK through
Colonel North's office to get this footage. Hy
understanding was that Spitz Channell or one of his
associates initiated the process whereby that footage uas
purveyed and, at that point> ue uere toldwthatyuas in the
possession of Faun Hall. •lia. got that film from her.
'i^i
702
NAME:
1624
1625
1626
1627
1628
1629
1630
1631
1632
1633
163t4
1635
1636
1637
1638
1639
1610
16U1
16142
16>43
16t«i4
16>45
16>46
16147
16(48
HIR257000
UtlftHSSiRED
PA-
66
2 What I am trying to determine is, uho told whom?
Is it your understanding that Hr . Uilner is the person in
your agency who was told to pick up the footage at Colonel
North's oifice?
A I believe I was the one who was told that Fawn Hall
had the footage, to call and make arrangements for her to
send that to us.
Q All right, maybe I am confused by your earlier
answer. X understood your earlier answer that in your
discussion with Hr . Channell, he had not indicated to you
that you could obtain this footage at Colonel Horth's
office .
A I don't recall him having indicated that in the
first conversation.
2 Was there a subsequent conversation that you
recall?
A Not that I recall, but I believe, perhaps, Ron
talked to Mr. Channell about that footage. He was very
interested in getting it, if possible, and that is how it
all developed. I am a little bit — as you can see — I am a
little unclear about the specifics because I think both Ron
and I, at different points, interfaced in the process.
S You are unclear as to whether the second
conversation directing the agency to get the footage at
Colonel North's office — whether that conversation was with
Kussife
703
NAME
1649
16S0
1651
1652
1653
1654
1655
1656
1657
1658
1659
1660
166 1
1662
1663
16614
1665
1666
1667
1668
1669
1670
167 1
1672
1673
.IR257000 y^i^LHiiOidty
H1KZ5/UUU «\ii"HilJK i-«:i:^Jin^ i,S«W PAGE 67
you or with Mr. Uilner?
A That is correct.
2 Is that correct?
A That IS correct.
2 But you recall, then, a later conversation when you
spoke to faun Hall?
A Yes.
2 About arranging for the pick up o± the footage?
A That is correct.
2 What do you recall about that conversation?
A Nothing extraordinary, just a short conversation
and she indicated she had the footage, and ua agreed on the
method of delivery, which was either by messenger or Federal
Express. It was probably by messenger. They wanted to
protect that film with their lives .
2 Had you met Fawn Hall before?
A I had no recollection of having met Faun Hall at
any time during this whole process.
2 When you called here, did she indicate that she was
expecting your call?
A Yes, she did.
2 She indicated the footage was ready to be shipped
to you?
A Yes.
2 But you had no direct contact with Colonel North?
704
NAME:
167U
1675
1676
1677
1678
1679
1680
1681
1682
1683
168>4
1685
1686
1687
1688
1689
1690
1691
1692
1693
169U
1695
1696
1697
1698
HIR2S
• « P2 « I"" ^k
2 And, to your knowledge, was this the only incident
where Colonel North's office provided any assistance to your
agency in connection with the preparation of any of the
advertisements for Mr. Channell?
A That is corr&ct.
8 The helicopter footage that you have been referring
to, is that footage of what is known as a Hind helicopter?
A That was our understanding, yes.
2 Now, turning again tc Exhibit 3 Hr . Goodman, which
is the list of completed advertisements by your agency, a
number of those advertisements were run on various
television stations in the United States, were they not?
A That is correct.
2 Do you have any information that the time on the
television station for running those ads was ever purchased
in any manner other than through your agency?
A We have no knowledge of that.
2 Oo you have any information that would indicate, in
any way, that that every occurred?
A No.
HR. SCOTT: Did you understand the question?
THE WITNESS: Off the record.
HR. FRYMAN: Let's go off the record.
[Discussion off the record. 1
705
.^.^^^•«o mMM
HknZ nj.K^3/uuu HIH^iTB V^^ifJ-i^ 3 lU W PAGE 69
1699 ( Recess at 12:15.1
1700 . BY MR. FRYHAK!
1701 S Reierring again to Exhibit 3, Mr. Goodman, do you
1702 have any information that indicates, m any way, that any of
1703 the charges relating to any advertisements on Exhibit 3 by
1704 your agency, or any of the charges for the purchase of
1705 advertising time on television stations for such ads, uas
1706 billed by your agency to any entity or person other than The
1707 American Conservative Trust, The National Endowment for the
1708 Preservation of Liberty, or Sentinel?
1709 A I don't recall, I am not auare of any billings to
1710 any other groups.
1711 2 And you are not auare of any information that would
1712 indicate that there uas any such billing?
17 13 A I am not auare of any information.
171U 2 So, just to make this totally clear on the record,
1715 to the best of your knouledge, all charges by your agency
1716 related to these advertisements, and all purchases of
17 17 advertising time relating to these advertisements, were
1718 billed either to The American Conservative Trust, The
1719 National Endoument for the Preservation of Liberty, or
1720 Sentinel?
1721 A That is correct.
1722 2 I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
1723 Exibit 8 for identification a document produced by counsel
UNCUSSFiEO
706
NAHE:
1724
1725
1726
1727
1728
1729
1730
1731
1732
1733
1734
1735
1736
1737
1738
1739
1740
1741
1742
1743
1744
1745
1746
1747
1748
libUiudlutU
HIR257000 %# • 1 V««J aUif.*? t < aHvUj PAGE 70
for Mr. Goodman, the first page is on the letterhead of The
Robert Goodnan Agency, Inc.. and the second page indicates
that the document is entitled, ' ' NEPL/ACT/Sentinel : A Media
Chronolgoy 1/10/87. ••
[Exhibit No. 8 was narked for identification.]
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Goodman Deposition Exhibit
8 for identification and ask you if you recognize that
document?
A Yes, I do.
Q Here you involved in the preparation of this
document?
A Yes , I was .
2 What was the reason that this document was
prepared ?
A May I review it for a second?
2 Yes.
A I was directed to prepare this summary. I call it
a paid media chronology. It really tries to summarize all
y^.
/^^ y.
of
of the various media, flighta by flight»--I mean series -»« ^■
programs that we had produced over the course of our
relationship with Mr. Channell and his affiliated
organizations from April of 1985 through the end of 1986
My recollection is that this document or this
information was requested by a person affiliated with Mr.
Richard Hillat. This was dated January 10th. It was
^ipg)
HOdll I
707
HIR257000
wimiie
PAGE 71
HAHE
17M9 probably closa to that point, his name was Jeff--first name
1750 was Jefi.
1751 2 Was it Keifez or Kefer?
1752 A Yes, six. Jeff Keiiez oc Keiez . He said^ that, for
1753 their purposes, they just needed to have a record of what
17514 had bean aired, including basically mote importantly, he
1755 wanted to know how much money we had spent over the course
1756 of our relationship with NEPL, ACT, Sentinel; and this was
ri\, '■ ■ ^^^
1757 provided, I believe ^to them," and at a later point, may have
1758 been provided U^^n- per request to Kr . Channell.
1759 My best recollection was that Jeff Keifer is the one
1760 who called us and wanted us to give him/ykind of a summary of
1761 what had been spent.
1762 8 Now, rtr . Goodman, in this document, for example, on
1763 the second page of the document which is Exhibit 8, there
176U are numbers used to identify spots. At the top of the page
1765 there is number 301, which refers to the spot headed,
1766 • 'Freedom Can't Work*' and number 302 refers to the spot,
1767 ''Korean Airliner''. Then down in the spots aired column
1768 below that, there is reference to those numbers. Do those
1769 numbers refer to the commercial number which are on the
1770 commercial scripts, some of which are, or all of which are,
177 1 included in Goodman Deposition Exhibit 4 for identification?
1772 A That is correct. May I make one point of
1773 clarification? I thinK the request from Jeff was just
mmM
708
NAME
1774
1775
1776
1777
1778
1779
1780
1781
1782
1783
17814
1785
1786
1787
1788
1789
1790
1791
1792
1793
1794
1795
1796
1797
1798
HIR257000
ffllSSiB
PAGE
72
for--he wanted to know how much money was spent on each of
the flights. I thought., I pride myself , on being thorough
and somewhat of a perfectionist. I thought for his
purposes, just for our purposes, it would be good to get a
complete as possible , file as I could of the various flights:
which is why I think I wanted to put in which spots aired
and •>which of the markets, and so forth.
1 don't recall him having asked for that information.
I think he was only interested in the dollars and cents.
8 You indicate in the first page of this memo that
you are still trying to validate the sponsorship of the
third media flight which you described as the ''Morning of
Peace ' ' project.
A That is correct.
2 I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
Exhibit 9 for identification another document produced by
counsel for the Goodman Agency, which is on the letterhead
of The Goodman Agency, the document is dated July 9th. 1987.
and it contains financial information relating to 1) ' 'First
Project''. 2) ''Horning of Peace Project'', and 3) ''October
23. 1985-Production of the TV Spots'*.
[Exhibit Ko. 9 was marked for identification.]
2 Hx . Goodman. I ask you to look at Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 9 for identification, and I ask if you
recognize that document?
i^(
709
NAME ■■
1799
1800
180 1
1802
1803
18014
1805
1806
1807
1808
1809
1810
181 1
1812
1813
181tt
1815
1816
1817
1818
1819
1820
1821
1822
1823
l^hLh^Cii U..y PAr- 7:
I don't recollect this particular document, but I
HIR257000
A
was aware of its preparation.
2 Wore you involved in the preparation of this
document?
A
I am sure I was consulted at some point. ff%t my
knowledge about the three things alluded to in this
piece--but ivr- best I believe. Tom, this was prepared by
Colleen Vickers. our accountant.
2 Do you know why this was prepared?
A Hell, let me go back. Uhen the press iirst started
to get interested in this story, vis a vis Mr. Channell, in
our desire to be as forthright and candid as possible in
this, because we, as these stories started to break, we
found ourselves very surprised by the course of events and
very unaware of lots of things being talked about and
discussed, and we had an occasion to, rn that with that
approach in mind, tightly or wrongly, in some ways I wish we
could have started over again, we tried to field each and
every press call that came in because, seemingly, Mr.
Channell and others weren't offering a heck of a lot of
press conferences at this point in time.
He apparently seemed to be likely targets for any kind
of information having to do with Hr . Channell 's activities.
During the course of that, we thought we were asked a
question by a reporter at one point about^dollars and cents
mhW
710
NAHE:
1824
1825
1826
1827
1828
1829
1830
1831
1832
1833
183(4
1835
1836
1837
1838
1839
1840
18U1
18142
18143
18(4(4
1845
18(46
18(47
18(48
fiiSSlRB - •■
HIR257000
of our relationship with Mr. Channell, and ue did a quick
response to one question, r^ review probably within half hour
or less of our books and gave out certain numbers. We had
■-.^ o-^.^iv'^^V'-f-
spent so much with ACT, spent so much with SeiiLiiluiil , and so
much with NEPL .
t ^ ^'' '■)-.• ^ ■ .
Then, more than one press reporter started to ji i bb iimu '
the possible inconsistency between what we were reporting
1 i'(
h-d been spent with these various organ!
izations »ft« wi
th the
other information they gleaned from other places, so we then
decided we would embark^ 'that plus the fact the story was
becoming more than k«4 material* we would embark on doing a
review of our own books to make absolutely sure--checking all
of our invoices, all of our billings, about the accounting
in this relationship.
On this, this page, und«r„item listed '"Morning of
Peace Project No. 2*', we discovered that the biggest
supposed discrepancy between what our books and billing
reflected and what we were hearing Mr. Channell was saying
involved the ' 'Horning of Peace'' project. It was a spot
that we produced with the disclaimer of The American
Conservative Trust. Our recollection is we were told this
was to be a responsibility sponsored by The American
Conservative Trust by either Mr. Channell or one of his
associates .
We billed all of the expenses of the time buy and
711
Hxnt-
1849
18S0
1851
1852
1853
185U
1855
1856
1857
1858
1859
1860
1861
1862
1863
186>4
1865
1866
1867
1868
1869
1870
187 1
1872
1873
HIR257000 lUS^i.S >iA :\..'^-iV iT ^}' PAGE 75
production to The Araetican Conservative Trust on this
particular spot. We liOt only had, going back to your
earlier questions, not only had a visual disclaimer, but
audio disclaimer as well. So, for the viewer, someone
reviewing this particular spot, there is absolutely no
question that this spot was paid for by The American
Conservative Trust as- seen and heard, as you see.
Even after the fact when, I think, I discovered we had
failed to bill Hr . Channell for a couple hundred dollars
worth of time b uy , I think a spot we added ~vn to the
schedule, I think I offered a short letter apologizing^the
oversight saying he still owed whatever the amount was to
tnis project on The American Conservative Trust. So, from
start to finish, we were under the clear impression we had a
clear direction that this was an American Conservative Trust -
type sponsored spot. The reason it is highlighted on this
memo is that Mr. Channell subsequently claimed that it
should have been a spot sponsored by HEPL, Kational
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. And he had a
conversation with Bob Goodman at one point about that,
sometime earlier this year.
And, I think, it became clear that there is a
difference in recollections ^if that is the wordjabout this
'-'rrj, -^y
particular project — Mr. Channell saying ** , essentially, that
this should have been a NEPL project, and we, our agency
712
HAHE: HIR257000 V ■ ■ V t^xtf »■«' -«»■ pj^j. 75
1874 saying, well, we not only billed everything to ACT, and even
1875 wrote a letter f«T after the project had finished, was
f • ,. ,■■■■■.. • ■' V':"-
1876 completed, we alluded to ACT, for heaven's sake, the spot it
1877 had a visual and audio disclaimer saying ACT as well.
1878 So, that is why we call this a discrepancy because,
1879 upon review of our books in late 1986 or early 1987, -Mten we
1880 thought we had better do a thorough search of--that we
1881 discovered to our surprise that a payment for this project
1882 was made to us, not from ACT, American Conservative Trust,
1883 but NEPL, National Endowment for the Preservation of
1884 Liberty.
1885 e Uhy did you care?
1886 A Ue didn't care. In fact, our aui,umi4 -when we say
1887 our accountant, Helva at this point, we talked to her about
1888 this. And she said all along she didn't know the difference
1889 betwf^en one organization and an e thcr -, and she said, if I got
1890 «100,000 from Hr . Channall regardless of what the masthead
189 1 on the check was, tha t: it matched what was being asked for
1892 in the invoice, whatever — that that was enough to satisfy her
1893 given haz interpretation of — without any input and one shared
1894 by all of us that we didn't know the difference, if there
1895 were any, between the various organizations.
1896 e What prompted the preparation of Goodman Deposition
1897 Exhibit 9 in July of 1987? Was there soma event at that
1898 time?
UNttilSSIflE[
713
HAHE:
1899
1900
190 1
1902
1903
190M
190S
1906
1907
1908
1909
19 10
19 11
1912
1913
191U
1915
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
iil'LfiDCinLi
HIR257000 W * 1 v «-!.■•*' ■^ - . •m^— PkGt 11
A No event, ue just wanted to see hou ue could,
basically, square accounts. Uhat had happened and what our
books had reflected. In other words, ue , m doing a review
of the accounting-^review.'all of our books, carae up with uhat
ue call a discrepancy in amounts that exceeded $120,000,—
Host of which had to do with this ''Horning of Peace*' spot.
e Has this July 9th memo a follow-up to the January
10th memo which is Exhibit 8?
A No.
e Well, for example, what I am getting at, in the
cover page you indicate that there is still some open
questions with regard to the ''Horning of Peace'' project.
A That is correct.
2 But it is not your recollection that Exhibit 9 is
with some follow-on effort to clarify what is--the questions
that are left open in Exhibit 8?
A It was an effort for us to understand what the
discrepancies were, including the ''Horning of Peace''
project, but we didn't prepare the July 9th, 1987 document
as a part of or a —
2 Supplement to--
A Supplement to — right — the January 10th, 1987
document .
2 You don't recall that any specific event prompted
the preparation of Exhibit 9?
714
1924
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
1934
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
1940
1941
1942
1943
1944
1945
1946
1947
1948
HIR2S7000
UflEUSSsr
PAGE
78
A Tom, early in the process, meaning the process of
review, ue discovered that--discovered this problem so to
speak with the '"Horning of Peace*' spot that ue had billed
it as an ACT spot--everything I have revealed to you, and
that ue had received payment for it, not from ACT but MEPL,
which our accountant, or Helva, had taken in and deposited,
and so forth--and not knowing there is any problem or any
difference between the two.
MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, I believe Exhibit
9 was not part of the original document production by The
Goodman Agency. I believe Exhibit 9 was a document produced
by Robert Goodman at an informal interview.
THE WITNESS: That is correct.
MR. SCOTT: I believe it was prepared for Robert
Goodman's benefit to assist him in that informal interview
in answering questions that you or any members of the
Committee might have with regard to these issues.
HR. SCHHAIT: That informal committee interview uas
on July 9th.
THE HITHESS: That is correct.
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Is that your recollection?
A Yes, sir.
2 Going back to Exhibit 8, on page 3 of that exhibit,
the Flight 3, the reference to the ''Horning of Peace' '
1^!
;1 F.^^RFO
715
MAHE :
1949
19S0
1951
1952
1953
1954
1955
1956
1957
1958
1959
1960
1961
1962
1963
19614
1965
1966
1967
1968
1969
1970
1971
1972
1973
.....UMCliSSlBEi
PAGE 79
interview--! said page 3, but it is page 2 of the memo, it is
the third page including the cover page--you have been
sponsored by and you have both organizations listed there,
what was the reason for that?
A Because of the confusion. This document was
-^^>
\r}i
prepared as ue h«v« gone through the review process, and as
alluded to in the cover memo, we are still trying to
validate the precise and proper sponsorship of the third
media flight listed in the study in brackets, the ''Horning
of Peace'' project. X wanted to make darn sure before I
made any firm statement that this was funded by ACT, that we
could, in fact, back that up with our invoices and billings.
and letters, or any other kind of correspondence, and, in
fact, *X the review, were able to do that.
e I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
Exhibit 10 for identification a series of pages on the
letterhead of The Robert Goodman Agency, Inc., headed,
''HEPL Freedom Fighters TV National Spot Placement
Television Analysis Harket Overview* '.
I will state for the record that the copy of this
document that is being marked today is a copy that was
produced by counsel for another entity. I am not certain
whether or not this document was included in the Goodman
production. It may have been. But I just want to make
clear for the record that the copy that is being marked was
716
NAME:
1974
1975
1976
1977
1978
1979
1980
1981
1982
1983
1984
1985
1986
1987
1988
1989
1990
1991
1992
1993
1994
1995
1996
1997
1998
HIR257000 linyL.l'Ji/^V?^ ''*'=-•'
PAC- 80
PEoduced by anothet organization.
[Exhibit No. 10 uas marked for identification. ]
8 nr . Goodman, I ask you to look at Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 10 for identification and tell me if you
recognize that document?
A Yes, I do.
8 Were you involved in the preparation of this
document?
A I prepared this document.
8 What uas the reason this uas prepared?
A Tom, this and other documents like it uare
prepared--this is a NEPL freedom fighter pro ject--uere
prepared in the first part of 1986 as I tried as a media
director--part of ray responsibility uith any client uas to
try to "9^^ them a sense of uhat ue call*,- the price of
admission i« in doing television for any particular project.
Without the benefit of knouing uhich markets they might
uant to use in this particular carapaign-;\campaign uhere our
understanding uas, certainly, and clearly, that ue uere
trying to influence a pending vote in Washington on contra
aid. That without any benefit of any input on uho or uhere
ue might go in the country, I undertook an independent
analysis without any input from — raaHy--from anybody-took a
lot of guesses uhere this program might be going and hou to
make those educated guesses.
717
NAME
1999
2000
200 1
2002
2003
20014
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
201 1
2012
2013
201>4
2015
2016
2017
20 18
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
HIR257O00 Ujti.-C .;*•.«-.:',: k i '■ « ul PAGE 81
Well. educate <^ in the sense that I "Wtrtr back on votes
' ■ \- 'i-L
in, I think, 1985, r o fe aB including votes on the Boland
Amendment and other key^ supposedly key, contra aid or what I
considered to be important votes. And, at that point, I had
had what seemed to be likely or possible suing votes or
Congressmen who might--who seemed to have voted on both sides
of the issue, depending on the amendment or the vote that
was before the House at that point, that i»«4« an intelligent
campaign or any other campaign of influence, be considered
persuadable. And this was done simply so I could tell Mr.
Channell and his associates. Give them an idea what the
price of admission was, what the cost of doing a national
television program might be.
2 Let me make sure I understand the basic nature of
this document. This is a planning document?
A Yes , sir .
C Is that correct?
A Yes, sir, planning fox my purposes, so, to get a
feel for what the
<^»»t- might be and, certainly, planning for
Mr. Channell so he could have a sense of what, perhaps, how
much money he ^ going to need to raise to do the program as
outlined .
Q So, this is a budgeting document rather than a
report of expenditures that have already occurred?
A That is correct.
718
NAME :
202U
2025
2026
2027
2028
2029
2030
2031
2032
2033
203(«
2035
2036
2037
2038
2039
2040
2041
2042
2043
2044
2045
2046
2047
2048
HIR257000
mm.
PAGE
82
2 Is that correct?
A Ves> sir.
HR. SCOTT: That particular document, I think, ue
did produce that and this particular part of it is
incomplete. I think we also produced it with a cover
letter. Adam, that explained its purpose--the fact it uas
just to be used as a planning type document.
THE WITNESS: That is right.
HR. SCOTT: Off the record.
[Discussion off the record. ]
BY HR. FRYHAN!
2 Back on the record.
Kr . Scott, as I indicated at the beginning, this
document may have well been in the materials produced by you
on behalf of Mr. Goodman. It is just that, in selecting the
materials for the deposition today, this particular document
ue selected from another source.
X ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition
Exhibit 1 1 for identification documents produced by counsel
for the Goodman Agency relating to billings by the Goodman
Agency to The American Conservative Trust. This exhibit
includes four summary sheets dated December 22nd, 1986, a
letter dated January 15th, 1987, from Colleen U. Vickers to
Mr. Channell, together with documentation referred to in
that January 15th letter. In addition, the exhibit includes
719
imp? ^qQ'sHI^?^
.7000 y^iiinu^s^ '-^''
NAME: HIR257oao i\' ■'..'...•'i,'' '.<^ •' ' ■ PAGE 83
20U9 the invoices that are referred to in one of the documents
2050 dated December 22nd, 1986, uhich is headed. Statement, and
205 1 the invoice numbers reflected on that statement are the
2052 invoices that appear in that exhibit.
2053 (Exhibit No. 11 was marked for idenif ication . 1
20514 2 If you would look through Exhibit 11, Mr. Goodman,
2055 and just confirm that you recognize those documents as
2056 documents of your organization?
2057 A I sure do.
2058 2 I ask the reporter to nark as Goodman Deposition 12
2059 for identification a group of materials produced by the
2060 Goodman Agency relating to billings to the National
2061 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty.
2062 A I had better make one correction for the record.
2063 Our former bookkeeper, her last married name, I knew her as
206^ nelva McCormick, her 1-»M name at -chis point is B . Lill Melva
2065 Croghan. Melva McCormick and Melva Croghan are one and the
2066 sane person.
2067 2 Goodnan Deposition Exhibit 12 includes a summary
2068 statement directed to the National Endowment for the
2069 Preservation of Liberty, dated Decenber 22nd, 1986, a
2070 further statenent of the sane date listing specific
207 1 invoices, covering four pages, a further statenent of the
2072 sane date of three pages, listing itens of income, a letter
2073 dated Decenber 23rd, 1986, from Melva Croghan to Mr.
720
NAME:
2074
207S
2076
2077
2078
2079
2080
2081
2082
2083
208U
2085
2086
2087
2088
2089
2090
209 1
2092
2093
209U
2095
2096
2097
2098
HIR2S7000 ^rir • « w o»«i a >' f-^ ■• » -«--..»:- pjQg gU
Channell, a summary statement dated December 22nd, 1986, a
similar statement dated February 12th, 1986, supporting
documentation ior the checks and wire transfers to the
Goodman Agency, and the Goodman Agency invoices listed in
the February 12th, 1987 statement, together with four
additional invoices numbered 4423, 4539, 4659, and 4744.
[Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.]
2 Mr. Goodman, I ask you to look through Exhibit 12
and just confirm that you recognize those documents as
documents produced by your organization.
A Yes, I recognize that.
2 Finally, in this particular area, I would ask the
reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 13 for
identification, a series of documents produced by counsel
for the Goodman Agency relating to billings to Sentinel. In
this exhibit there are three summary sheets dated December
22nd, 1986, similar sheets dated February 12th, 1986,
together with supporting documentation for the income from
Sentinel and the Goodman Agency invoices referred to in one
of the suaaaxy statements.
[Exhibit No. 13 was marked for identification.]
2 Hr . Goodman, if you would look at Exhibit 13, if
you would look through that and just confirm that you
recognize those documents as materials produced by your
organization.
^qfi«(
721
NAHE: H
2099
2 100
2 10 1
2102
IR257000 Ur^-lsLi'?.i3cj;!< iLU ''*°^ »5
A I do.
e Off the record.
[Whereupon, at 1:05 p.n.. a luncheon recess was called,
to reconvene at 1 : US p . ra . 1
722
HAME:
2103
2 10<4
2 10S
2 106
2107
2108
2109
2110
2 111
2112
2113
2 1 lU
2 115
2116
21 17
21 18
2119
2120
2121
2122
2123
2124
2125
2126
2127
HIR257000 JBfi'iJ.nS T:k.'-\.^il i'i * i PAGE 86
RPTS STEIN
DCMK DANIELS
AFTERNOON SESSION
12:10 p .m. 1
MR. FRYMAN: On tha record.
THE WITNESS: During lunch, I was thinking about an
answer to a question having to do with Oliver North and the
question uas did he have any participation in the
preparation or development of television spots for Mr.
Channell and his associates.
Just to make it clear, ue had one other contact
with Colonel North having nothing to do with the Nicaragua
resistance. The contact per Mr. Channell 's request was to
get a briefing on the whole issue of terrorism in the
country at that point in time. This was some time I believe
in early 1986 and the idea was to get some intelligence froni
Colonel North that might be used in the preparation of a
film, an educational film on terrorism that Mr. Channell
thought one or more of his benefactors might be interested
in funding and supporting.
So we got a briefing that day, a rather brief
briefing in terms of specifics on terrorism. We ended up
developing a film treatment for tha terrorism film which we
thought was awfully good, but which ultimately was never
used .
l)NCL!iS®P
723
HIR2S7000 Ul^'i^i^'^fi-'- '>''^* -"^-^
HAnE' nxjv^j/wuu %^ t y *"oA <■■'' Ti *• -^ .• ■: * • — ' - p & r ~ fl 7
2128 BV HR. FRYHAN:
2129 2 On how raany occasions did you meat Colonel North?
2130 A Ue actually mat Colonel ).orth, actually met hira on
2131 only two occasions. The first occasion was the one I
2132 alluded to. the other occasion was at a meeting in the Old
2 133 Executive Office Building in a room called the Uar Treaty
2 134 Room where Mr. Channell and between 30 to SO of his
2135 supporters were meeting to get a briefing on the situation
2136 in Nicaragua and Colonel North was one of several speakers
2137 that day, speakers which included Pat Buchanan, former
2138 Communications Director; and the Director, the head of the — I
2139 think It was called the Office of Public Liaison, the
21M0 person's name escapes me.
21'4l 2 Hr . K-o- j-e-l-i-s--first name — L-i-n-a-s?
2142 A Yes.
2 143 They gave this assessment of the situation and
2 144 after the meeting whan wa ware milling about. before we went
2145 back to the Hay Adams for the rest of the night's
2 146 festivities, Hr . Channell brought Colonel North over to ray
2 147 father and I and said, ''I want you to meet Bob and Adam
2 148 Goodman, who ara doing all our television ads,'' and ColoneJ.
2 149 North said something to the effect of ''Keep up the good
2 150 job, you aza doing good work,'* and that was the extent of
2151 our conversation than.
2152 Beyond that and the terrorism film briefing, I
mM
724
2153
215U
2155
2156
2157
2158
2159
2160
2161
2162
2163
216U
2165
2166
2167
2168
2169
2170
2171
2172
2173
2174
2175
2176
2177
mmm
HIR257000 PAGE 88
didn't have any other direct conversations with Colonel
North.
2 When you say directly, irom what are you
distinguishing your direct conversation?
A Really just the one conversation ue have already
talked about uith Faun Hall, with his oifica, ue had
communication, but that was the only time ue actually talked
directly to the colonel.
2 All right.
Mr. Goodman, this morning ue marked as exhibits a
number of statements and invoices produced by your agency.
One of those exhibits uas Exhibit 1 1 relating to the
American Conservative Trust, and I indicated in the
description of the exhibit that the invoices were those
described in one of the statements dated December 22, 1986.
My notes also indicate that there are, in addition,
two invoices in that Exhibit Nos . 5138 and 51614 which are
not reflected in the statement.
Now —
A The reason, if I may, if you look at the invoice
dates, the Invoice dates on those two invoices are January
5, 1987 and February 10, 1987, which is after the
preparation, it seems, of this document.
8 Fine.
Returning to Exhibit 8, which was the media
^SSirlEO
725
NAME
2178
2179
2 180
2 181
2182
2183
21814
2185
2186
2187
2 188
2189
2190
2191
2 192
2193
2194
2195
2196
2197
2198
2199
2200
2201
2202
HIR257000 UllJi5'Lrc*JVj-« ='•""' PAGE 89
chronology dated January 10, 1987, can you tell me if
Exhibits 11, 12, and 13, which are the materials relating to
the American Conservative Trust, NEPL and Sentinel, provide
the source documents that you used in preparing Exhibit 8?
Let's go off the record a minute.
[Discussion off the record.]
HR. FRYHAH: On the record.
iHhereupon, the record was read by the reporter. I
THE WITNESS: The document in question was prepared
using not only the three other documents that Tom mentioned,
but in addition station affidavits, which we have in our
possession. >tation affidavits are simply final invoices
from stations about which spots actually ran, the cost of
those spots and confirmation for our accounting to mesh with
our billing and invoices.
HR. FRYHAH: Back on the record.
BY HR. FRYHAH:
S Hr. Goodman, Exhibits 11, 12, and 13 indicate that
the total billings by your agency to the three Channell
organizations ware approximately «1.3 million.
Of that total, can you estimate the amount that
related to programs involving Nicaragua?
A Without doing a thorough review of the documents a
good estimate would range from «800,000/>of the «1.3 million.
2 Now you mentioned earlier that in developing the
\imsmQ
726
HAHE: HIR257000 ti £ k ■ju! i.a il / -4.; • : ?A-.V> PAGE 90
2203 iniormation in Exhibit 8, which was the January 10, 1987
2201* i»«dia chronology, you would need to look at station
2205 affidavits.
2206 If you would look, for example, at Exhibit 13,
2207 which relates to the billings to Sentinel, and Invoice U611
2208 in that exhibit, which appears to relate to the purchase of
2209 media time--
2210 A yes.
22 11 e The particular spots are not identified on Invoice
22 12 (««^11, and is that an example of where you would need to look
2213 at station affidavits to prepare the information in Exhibit
22 114 8 as well as your agency invoices?
22 15 A To be absolutely sure of the rotation we would have
2216 to do that, even if we had rotation* instructions in-house
2217 governing this particular project* >4«e can't vouch whether
22 18 iitre station followed that precisely or not <and we would have
2219 to use a station affidavit to do that; that is correct.
2220 2 Now, Exhibits 11, 12 and 13 all begin with a report
2221 to one of Hr . Channell's organizations dated December 22,
2222 1986.
2223 Here these prepared in response to a request from
222U Mr. Channell?
2225 A Well, as I refresh my meuory. on Document 11, there
2226 is a cover letter dated January 15th, from Colleen Vickers.
2227 Treasurer, it says it is a ''Dear Spitz Channell letter''
if*. V ■
)00^
727
NAHE:
2223
2229
2230
223 1
2232
2233
223<4
2235
2236
2237
2238
2239
22>40
22U1
22142
22M3
22UU
22145
2246
221*7
22148
22U9
2250
2251
2252
HIR257000
PAGE
9 1
and says '"Enclosed is the documentation you requested
regarding payments received from American Conservation trust
accounts.'' so obviously in that case that was a request
from Mr. Channel!.
2 It is not clear to me that that January 15 letter
relates to the prior pages. If you will look at the page
right after the 15th letter, there seems to be a single page
that was the enclosure with that letter, and is it your
recollection that the December 22, 1986 materials were not
sent to Kr . Channell some time in January or do you recall
when they were sent?
A I really don't recall. I remember the prepararioii
of the documents .
2 Do you know why they were prepared?
A In responding to that question, it is probably
relevant to look at Document 12, which in the letter that
was enclosed there dated December 23, 1986, from then-
Treasurer Melva Croghan, which indicates there is a letter
to Mr. Channell and it says, ''Hr. Goodman asked me to write
you regarding the audit we did and sent you, via Federal
Express, yesterday. As you can see from the covering
sheet--'* and so on and so forth.
Th« gist of this letter, as you read it, is that we
were saying thay were identifying the discrepancy, which was
highlighted in the documents you are talking about, 11, 12,
wmwm
728
2253
2251*
2255
2256
2257
2258
2259
2260
2261
2262
2263
22614
2265
2266
2267
2268
2269
2270
2271
2272
2273
22714
2275
2276
2277
„... UliCLASSintO „
HIR257000 It a V^9^l K';<> 4J S I ka-»^ PAGE 92
and 13, totaling approximately «120,000 to «125,000,
disczepancies caused by, as you can see in Document
No. --Exhibit No. 9, involved disczepancies where ouz billing
indicated a project was paid for by American Conservative
Tzust and yet upon zeview and audit, ue discovezad the
SI 25 , 000--let me go back. Ue discovezed that «125,000 in
disczepancies - ^rUa-l stemmed fzom thzee diiiezent things.
One we have alzeady talked about^ the Hozning of
Peace Pzoject. the othez two things identified on heze
undez No. 1, called first pzo ject--this had to do with the
Mr.
two spots, the fizst two spots w« pzoduced
Channell's ozganizations and ue discovezed upon zeview that
we had billed the Amezican Consezvative Tzust, ACT, $20,000,
which you can see Invoice mOU, but had zeceived in partial
payment at least, *20,000 from NEPL, and -^Ivat is a «20,000
discrepancy there.
Ue had approximately *9'4,000 in discrepancies on
Morning of Peace and than under Item 3, that had to do with
the final series of spots we pzoduced pzioz to the 1986
ejections — I think this is dated impzopezly — which weze
entitled ''Back Down*' and ''Election Day'' and we
discovezad that theze was still a balance owed of slightly
less than «10,000, which yielded a total disczepancy figuze
of «123.627.
It should be pointed out in ouz zeview of documents
729
NAME:
2278
2279
2280
2281
2282
2283
228U
2285
2286
2287
2288
2289
2290
2291
2292
2293
22914
2295
2296
2297
2298
2299
2300
2301
2302
HIR257000 |jiVjLnU>i^<5 J-:-%^
PAGE 93
that all of out billings, all of our invoices, match the
disclaimers on the spots that uere produced.
Certainly and most imporcantly as in the case of
'•Morning of Peace,'' which is why ue would have a
discrepancy perhaps with Ht . Channell and his organization
which we might be attesting to, ue thought the best way,
maybe the only way and we got the seal of approval from our
accountants in terms of it being proper procedure was to go
through the actual billings jiMk*e sure the billings matched
the disclaimers on the spots unA tha t was a way to come up
with total billings for each of the three separate entities
that were involved here.
2 But it was Mr. Channell' s decision as to what the
disclaimer on any spot should be?
A That is correct.
2 So you put the American Conservative Trust
disclaimer on ''Morning of Peace'' because he told you to do
that; is that your understanding?
A That is not only our understanding, but our
recollection.
2 But in the manner in which you had been operating
with Mr. Channell, if he had directed you to put the
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty
disclaimer on that spot, you would have followed his
instructions?
Ui
730
MAKE:
2303
230(4
2305
2306
2307
2308
2309
2310
231 1
2312
2313
23114
2315
2316
2317
2318
2319
2320
2321
2322
2323
232>4
2325
2326
2327
"■"■;•• MMM "-
94
2 So. apart from questions about which entity of Hr .
Channell's should have been billed, the bottom line, if you
will, as of July 9, 1987, reflected in Exhibit 9, was that
your agency was owed «689.7'4?
A Yes, after procedural accounting for the
discrepancies we have identified. In other words, Tom, the
bottom line is that ue could identify the discrepancies,
every discrepancy ^ there with tlie exception of «689.7<4.
Or, let me restate that.
Ue , after accounting for the discrepancies, it is
our understanding and our assessment that we are still--that
the balance still due is *689.7U.
2 And when you use the word ''discrepancies,'' an I
correct that by that word you mean amounts due from one
entity reflected in your accounting records as well as
overpayments from another entity reflected in your
accounting records?
A That is right. That is correct.
2 So. after netting the different types of
discrepancies, again the bottom line in July 1987 was that
the group of Hr . Channell's organizations owed you under
»700?
A That is correct.
2 Has your agency paid for the time required to
Uliis:5iHty
731
NAME :
2328
2329
2330
2331
2332
2333
23314
2335
2336
2337
2338
2339
2340
2341
2342
2343
2344
2345
2346
2347
2348
2349
2350
2351
2352
HIR257000 y\^y3-r(.^"^*- '■-"•
PAGE 95
prepare Exhibits 11, 12 and 13?
A No.
2 Is it unusual for you to have to do this sort of
investigation with regard to billings to a client?
A Unprecedented, but appropriate.
2 What do you mean by that?
A Given, you know, the news stories about everything
that was going on, it just seened to be prudent practice for
us at that point to really do a thorough review of our
operation as it related to Channell's organizations and make
darn sure that we knew exactly what we were talking about in.
terms of our participation.
S Mr. Goodman, this morning we were talking about the
different types of television tape, one-inch tape, tuo-inch
tape, and three-quar ter-and-a-half -inch tapes.
A Yes.
2 Did you from time to tim«! provide copies of your
advertisements to Hr . Channell or other individuals in his
organization?
A Yes, wa did.
2 Hhich size tape did you provide?
A Both three-quarter and half-inch tape, but I think
more often than not it was half-inch tape.
2 Were there any occasions when you provided one- or
two-inch tapes?
732
NAME:
2353
23SU
2355
2356
2357
2358
2359
2360
2361
2362
2363
236U
2365
2366
2367
2368
2369
2370
2371
2372
2373
2374
2375
2376
2377
mm a^Q'^irp
That is somathing we do .a wt e i da tha studio ua use.
HIR2S7000 1^5 -5i3< 'y*'.-!!?/ ' fJI'^O page 96
A Not that I can recall and I wouldn't know the
reason why we would provide that.
2 What does the word "'dub'' mean in the industry?
A Just another word for copy, copy of a spot or a
number of spots. Dub is part of the dubbing process and to
make copies of a spot for broadcast or for personal or
private use from the master, we make what is called
generally a dubbing master and from that dubbing master we
make various copies for stations and others.
2 Is that dona in-house at your agency or do you
subcontract that?
A
Ua have two or three in tha area. We use their facilities.
2 Is a copy of a tape normally made for each station
that is running the tape?
A That is correct.
2 And those are destroyed after the tapes are run or
discarded?
A Ganatally that is station practice at some point.
HR. fRYHAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 14 for identification —
HR. SCOTT: Just a second.
fox tha record, if you don't have those station
affidavits, and I bellava ua did produce them, my memory is
that they ware produced in a section, but if for soma reason
w&mM
733
o^.nrn
NAME :
2378
2379
2380
2381
2382
2383
238U
2385
2386
2387
2388
2389
2390
2391
2392
2393
2394
2395
2396
2397
2398
2399
2U00
2>401
21402
HIR2S7000
ONCLASSia
3
PAGE 97
they are not included in the documents and are necessary for
the investigation, we will be glad to provide them.
Let us know and ue will be glad to cooperate.
HR. FRYMAN: Thank you.
I would ask the reporter to mark, as X indicated,
as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 1 U for identification a
memorandum dated '4-19-85, which appears to be signed Adam
Goodman, ''To Dan, Spitz £ Crew"' and what appears to be an
attachment referred to in the memorandum.
Let me again state for the record that this
document we have selected from a group of documents produced
by counsel for another entity, Hr . Scott. I do not recall
seeing this in the documents you have produced, though it is
possible that it is in there.
I just want to note for the record this particular
copy came from another entity.
(Exhibit No. 1 14 was marked for identification.!
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Mr. Goodman, if you would look at Exhibit 1 U and
tell ma if you recognize that document?
A I think I recall this, but not in great detail,
fi Does that appear to be your signature at the
bottom?
A Oh, absolutely. It Is valid.
fi If you would look at the pages after the first page
'*'^' 'iSSlfiE!
734
2U03
2(40>4
21405
2U06
2407
21408
2109
2U10
2(41 1
21412
21413
214114
2415
2>416
2417
2U18
2419
2420
2421
2422
2423
2424
2425
2426
2427
HIR2S7000
yNGUSSIRED
PAGE 98
and tell me if that appeals to be the attachment to the
memorandum?
A yes.
Q Did this memorandum relate to one of your initial
programs for Mr. Channell?
A I believe it did. It is dated April 19, 1985, and
the first series of spots we aired for Mr. Channell's
organizations, I believe, went on the air in April of 1985.
Let me just review this.
Yes. It related to that, but in comparison with
Deposition Exhibit No. 8, it is somewhat constructive--I see
this matches up.
I am sorry, where were we on the question?
S Ky question was whether the summary sheet referred
to in your cover memo, which is the third sheet in Exhibit
14, relates to the initial round of advertisements for Mr.
Channell and I believe you have been comparing that--
A With my immediate chronology on Exhibit 8.
2 Which is the second page of Exhibit 8.
A Yes. It seems to be one and the same thing.
2 Then in your cover memo in Exhibit 14 you also
refer to a summary of the research used to define the TV
markets selected to reach the 21 targeted Congressmen, and
there are additional pages as a part of Exhibit 14, which is
that summary referred to in your memorandum; is that
(iNcussife
735
NAHE :
21428
2il29
2430
2431
2U32
2433
2434
2435
2(436
2»»37
2U38
2U39
214140
2^^ i
2U142
24 43
2444
2445
2446
2447
2448
2449
2450
2451
2452
S $ s £ i N ^1 * 4 1 ? f a 3 H a
HIR2S7000 i^*VS'^ ^!* \ \ ^ *° i' [-^ 'J 5 P*°^ '^
correct ?
A That is correct, yes.
Q Your phrase in the memorandum, ''reach the 2 1
targeted Congressmen (per Rich Killer).''
What did you mean by the phrase ''targeted
Congressmen' ' ?
A I wish I Knew. I am trying to recall. Obviously
this is a little over two years old. Just reading what I
wrote here in the memo, I am WlJt 'about--my memo that says
''research used to define the TV m^irkets selected to reach
the 2 1 targeted Congressmen (per Rich Hiller),'' I assume I
got those 2 1 names from Rich Miller. That seems to be what
my memo says here, but I can't recall in this particular
project, which was the very first one we did, exactly the
situation surrounding that.
2 Hell, is ''targeted Congressmen'' a phrase that you
are familiar with? Is that a phrase that has meaning in
your industry?
A Wall, in relation to this it would suggest, it
would mean to us that these are Congressmen who we thought
or — when I say we, Mr. Channell and his associates thought
would be persuadable or most affected by a campaign of
public education and advocacy on behalf of the Nicaraguan
resistance. But I an trying to search my memory banks to
remember this particular situation.
muzm
736
NAME:
2(453
ausu
21455
2US6
2457
2<458
2US9
2460
2461
2462
2463
2464
2465
2466
2467
2468
2469
2470
2471
2472
2473
2474
2475
2476
2477
HIR257000
mmtm
PAGE 100
Obviously, Tom, this is very early on in our
relationship. I looked at the supporting documents behind
this memo, the last 8, 9, 10 pages, and I thought when I
first looked at it. it might be the case that I had been
given names oi people and. by the way, for the record, you
can see they are Republicans as well as Democrats. And I
went in and researched what TV markets--! should say this is
my assumption, that I went in and researched which TV
markets would be needed to cover chose particular
Congressmen and Congresswomen .
2 Well, if you would look at the last page of Exhibit
14. rtr . Goodman, there is a note which says ''All
Congressmen listed in CAPS above are among the 2 1
Representatives targeted by Rich Killer. ''
A I wish you would have told me that in the
beginning. Then that seems to jibe with everything I said
in the memo. I guess X got the names from Rich Killer.
2 Is it your recollection that you had any role in
the targeting of the Congressmen or is that solely Hr .
Miller?
A Solely Hr . Millet and/or Mr. Channell and his
associates .
e You never got information from Mr. Miller?
A Absolutely neither I nor anyone in the agency were
ever participants in the decision of selection, now referred
737
...000 pel ISM&
PAT'
10 1
NAHE
2478 to as ''targeted Congressmen,'' ior this or any other
2479 project in the campaign or involved with Mr. Channell.
2U80 I provided research along the way^rauch of it
2'48l unsolicited for the basis of planning and budgeting and not
2482 for the purpose of telling Mr. Channell. Mr. Miller and
2>483 others who to target and how.
2M8U 2 So the chronology, as I understand your answer with
2485 respect to this particular phase of the campaign, is that
21486 Hr . niller gave you a list of 21 targeted Representatives.
2487 A Yes.
2t88 2 On the basis of that list, you did some research
2489 with respect to purchase media time, which led to the
2U90 memorandum which is an attachment and is a part of Exhibit
2U91 }f>
2492 A That is right.
2493 S Is that correct?
2494 A That is correct.
2495 S But your sole role was an investigation as to the
2496 best and most effective media purchases that could be
2497 arranged in connection with the Congressmen who had been
2498 targeted by someone else?
2499 A I am glad you brought that point up, too, because
2500 as you will notice in the 22 markets profiled here
2501 reflecting my research, in capital letters are listed the
2502 names of Members of Congress who obviously were identified
738
NAHE'
2503
2504
2505
2506
2507
2508
2509
2510
251 1
2512
2513
251>4
2515
2516
2517
2518
2519
2520
2521
2522
2523
252U
2525
2526
2527
UNCLASSiFi
HIR257000 Ua «Ull.niJ953! KS 59 P&GE 102
by Hr . Miller as one of the 21 targets here, but in addition
to that, I also listed the other names of Henbers of
Congress who would be affected by such advertising.
Uhen you are looking at making strategic choices
between doing something, say we had a number of targets m
Hew York City, the most expensive media market in the
country and might reach three or four persuadable
Congressmen as opposed to using five other markets outside
of New York City for the same price where you might reach 10
to 15 people--that is where the research comes into play.
I iisC the given targets and everybody in the
congressional district was covered in some measure by
television coming out of the designated television market.
2 Now, the phrase or the letters G.R.P. appear
frequently in the attachment to this memorandum. Uhat does
G.R.P. stand for?
A Great Reagan Presidency--no , it stands for Gross
Rating Points .
S What does that mean?
A It is a standard naasurenent in the industry to
measure audience sizes and theoretically when you achieve
100 rating points with a particular spot, you theoretically
reach eve ey a ne in a TV market once.
In reality, you will reach 50 percent of the people
3 times. You won't»reach 25 percent of the people ^once, but
Mmm
739
MAKE :
2528
2529
2530
2531
2532
2533
253>4
2535
2536
2537
2538
2539
2540
25<(1
2542
25>43
25>4t«
2545
25U6
2547
2548
2549
2550
2551
2552
HIR2S7000
mmW3
PAGE 103
theoretically that means on 100 rating points, you reach
everybody once.
The reason ue use that is to give the clients a
ure n planning
standard meas
\g campaigns. Then you get to the
central issue in the ad industry, hou much is enough, on
which there will probably be an - int ei ina l debate.
2 So to achieve more rating points in any particular
market, you just buy more time?
A Exactly.
MR. FRYHAK' I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 15 for identification a document produced
by counsel for the Goodman Agency with a cover page reading
''American Conservative Trust, Freedom Fighters TV, National
Spot Program, 12/9/85.''
(Exhibit No. 15 was marked for identification. 1
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Do you recognize Exhibit 15, Mr. Goodman?
A Yes. I do.
2 What is that?
A It is the same kind of document as one that we have
been talking about for the last hour or two. It was
prepared ^Lm initially the American Conservative Trust. I
think that eventually became the National Endowment for the
Preservation of Liberty.
Hay I take a moment to read this?
740
HAME:
2SS3
2SSI4
2555
2556
2557
2558
2559
2560
2561
2562
2563
25614
2565
2566
2567
2568
2569
2570
2571
2572
2573
2574
2575
2576
2577
A This was again a budgeting^planning document that I
prepared to give Mr. Channell and others interested some
sense of what it was going to cost to do a national ad
program on behalf of the freedom fighters and in this case
on the last page of my memo, instructed to read the last
paragraph to discern exactly what we were led to believe
that was all about.
It says, ''As discussed, this national spot program
is a pioneer attempt to effectively influence public opinion
as prelude to a critical congressional debate and vote. If
successful, our approach will become the definitive
blueprint for all interest groups whose goals and objectives
are directly affected by Congress.''
There was no question in our minds that this
project related directly to a planned and future
congressional vote on contra aid. I think everything we did
as prelude to that project and throughout the entire project
leading up to the votes in^spring, and eventually I think it
was as lata as June of 1986, were with that in mind.
I differentiate that from what we were doing in the
beginning, 198S, our first »i«^ with the project was again a
public education approach, even though there was a vote
obviously also in 1985^ and there was targeting that went on
with that also.
741
NAHE:
2S78
2579
2580
2581
2582
2583
258(4
2585
2586
2587
2588
2589
2590
2591
2592
2593
25914
2595
2596
2597
2598
2599
2600
2601
2602
HIR257000 'ynyLni.'i^il ILU
PAGE 105
We had tuo objectives. The first^ ue learned . about
public education. The second objective was to influence
public opinion as a way of exerting some type of influence
over nembers of Congress who had the final say over whether
the contras would continue to receive funding or not.
Q In this paragraph, you have just referred to where
you state ''this is a pioneer attempt.*' Did you believe
you were breaking new ground in this program, that this was
something that had never been done before?
A It was something that I felt--we felt w* had never
been done in this fashion, where pay television became the
leading lobbyist for a public interest group or for a
particular point of view.
Htt uextt not just talking about a smattering of
television, we are talking about a major investment in pay
television as the driving force behind an effort to
influence public and eventually congressional opinion on a
particular matter before the Congress.
I Bight hava been wrong in making that assumption.
In my expexience, I can't recall a group that has made this
kind of investment in television as the major weapon in
their arsenal of influence.
2 A form of this program was implemented in 1986; is
that correct?
A That is correct.
ni^mim
742
NAME:
2603
26014
2605
2606
2607
2608
2609
2610
26 1 1
2612
2613
26114
2615
2616
2617
2618
2619
2620
2621
2622
2623
262U
2625
2626
2627
HX.257000 Or^^ftSSsdEO
>AGE 106
e And an I correct that most of the television
advertisements in 1986 in connection with this program were
sponsored by the National Endowment for the Preservation of
Liberty?
A That is correct.
2 Did you have any discussions or were you aware of
any discussions with Mr. Channell or any other
representatives of his organization as to why NEPL was the
sponsor of the advertisements?
A I don't recall any conversations or any knowledge
or anything of that nature.
2 During 1985 or 1986, were you aware that NEPL was a
501 Cc)(3) organization?
A No. I am still not sure what that is.
2 Here you aware that contributors to NEPL were
taking tax deductions for their contributions?
A No.
2 Going back to Exhibit 15, the second paragraph in
your December 9, 1985 memorandum, you state that ''Our
strategy was to target those Congressmen who, by virtue of
their record on Nicaragua, seemingly have yet to make up
their mind . ' *
Has the Goodman Agency the entity doing the
targeting in connection with this program?
A Absolutely not.
743
NAME :
2628
2629
2630
2631
2632
2633
263(4
2635
2636
2637
2638
2639
26U0
26U1
26142
26(43
26(4(4
26M5
26((6
26(47
26(48
2649
2650
2651
2652
HIR257000
mm '^M-w
PAGE '07
2 When you say '"our strategy was to target,'' to
what are you reierring, by the phrase ''our strategy?'' And
I uill also in connection with this question refer you to
the next paragraph where you say that ''We' '--we is in
quotes-- *' drafted our own listing of these wavering
Congressmen . ' '
A Yes. It was probably an unfortunate choice of
words to use ''our'' in both cases. Obviously in the second
case, looking at key votes, that was ny way of
distinguishing this as our effort and not anything connected
with Kr . Channell or his intentions about the ultinate
targeting .
I should have just changed the word in the first
situation from ''our'' to--maybe Mr. Channell's strategy
would probably be more appropriate.
2 Well, just to get the gist of ray question, if you
look on the next page, the next paragraph says ''After we
determined the ' honorees ' ' ' --who determined the ' • honorees ? ' '
A That was the agency.
2 Has that you, Adam Goodman, and the agency?
A Absolutely without consultation from fir . Channell
or anybody else. I think I should point out that ray
recollection was that this document that we are talking
about here was requested by Hr . Channell and/or his
associates so that they could, really for use for their
744
HAKE:
2653
265U
2655
2656
2657
2658
2659
2660
2661
2662
2663
26614
2665
2666
2667
2668
2669
2670
2671
2672
2673
2674
2675
2676
2677
mm ?^^'!nFn
>AGE 108
puzposes, which you will make the assumption was fund-
raising purposes with potential contributors to their
organizations which is why maybe in some cases my wording is
a little unclear about ''our'" versus ''we.''
But as I recall, that was drafted and reproduced in
some numbers for use by Mr. Channell and his associates in
explaining the program for a possible way of presenting this
program to contributors and actually raising money.
fi To go back and make sure that I understand your
answers in the second paragraph when it talks about, ''Our
strategy was to target Congressmen who, by virtue of their
record on Nicaragua, seemingly have yet to make up their
mind' '--in that paragraph, am I correct in understanding your
answer that that was a strategy that had been set by Hr .
Channell?
A Yes.
Q Then the implementation of that strategy as
described in the second paragraph was an implementation that
was done by the Goodman Agency pursuant to the techniques
that are described in the second paragraph; is that correct?
A I am sorry, the secohd paragraph —
2 The third paragraph beginning ''we drafted our own
listing. • '
A Right. This was again an educated guess on how
this type of program would be implemented and I did it, I
IlLASSiFiEO
745
NAME :
2678
2679
2680
2681
2682
2683
268U
2685
2686
2687
2688
2689
2690
2691
2692
2693
2694
2695
2696
2697
2698
2699
2700
270 1
2702
HIR2S7UUU |y;-,;,-*(| .i-a:tOr>3ta ''l-C^ PAGE 109
needed to do that first because per Channell's request he
wanted to have a sense of the cost to do this program; and
secondly, I wanted to have a sense of what it would cost and
give my client, Mr. Channell, an idea of the scope of the
program. In other words, how many markets, how many
Congressmen would be affected, so on and so forth.
It was ray way of being very thorough as a media
planner and to provide Hr . Channell with something else at
the same time that would document the program he was trying
to do here. This was obviously a very expensive program.
I think, as this would reveal, we are talking about
upwards of «730,000 if it were fully implemented in all 49
markets that I listed in this program at 350 gross rating
points .
RPTS STEIN
DCHN DANIELS
Q And that number you are reading from the page of
this exhibit which has the Stamp No. 002569; is that
correct?
A That is tight.
S HoH, in this exhibit, there is a section toward the
back beginning with the Stamp No. 002598.
A I should clarify that further, that was for the
monthly budgets. I think the whole program that we are
looking at had a price tag that went as high as S2, 100,000.
746
NAME-
2703
27014
2705
2706
2707
2708
2709
27 10
271 1
2712
2713
27114
2715
2716
2717
2718
2719
2720
2721
2722
2723
272U
2725
2726
2727
HIR257000 BiSWB.t Si-'^J'^oT i'' si PAGE 110
2 And that is reflected on page 002570 with the stamp
nurabei ?
A That is right.
2 Turning to the page with the Stamp Mo. 002598,
uhich reads ''Key Congressional Votes Nicaraguan 'Freedom
Fighters,''' and the pages following that heading, was that
section of the report prepared by your agency?
A Yes.
2 Did you prepare that?
A I prepared that. That was part of the research I
was alluding to earlier where I--In this case, X included as
something that was new, beyond just profiling the votes
various Congressmen had on the important issues affecting
contra aid, you see the HcDade amendment, the Michel
amendment .
These are kinds of litmus tests, my perception of
what the litmus test might be.
2 And that section at the back is the source data
that you used for applying the criteria set forth on pages
002566 and 002567?
A That is correct.
HR. FRYHAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 16 for identification a letter dated
December 12, 1985 from Adam Goodman to Fred Sacher; and a
memorandum, apparently enclosed with that letter, dated
Mimm
747
NAHE
2728
2729
2730
2731
2732
2733
273U
2735
2736
2737
2738
2739
27^0
271*1
2742
27U3
27141*
271*5
2746
27U7
27U8
27U9
2750
2751
2752
HIR257000
UNCUSSIFIED
PAGE 1 1 1
December 12, 198S headed ' 'Freedom Fighters TV' National
Spot Program. Three pages of the memorandum are included in
this Exhibit.
(Exhibit No. 16 uas marked for identification. J
BY MR. FRYHAN:
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 16 and ask you if
you recognize that document?
A I sure do.
2 Am I correct that the enclosure uas the same as
Exhibit 15 except that it uas dated December 12 and it uas
directed to Fred Sacher instead of Spitz Channell and David
Conrad?
Yes. That is correct.
Uas that done at Mr. Channell's request?
The letter to Hr . Sacher?
And sending him the enclosure in that revised
A
2
A
2
format?
A Yes.
nayba a word of explanation. Fred Sacher uas
desctibad to us as one of Mr. Channell's biggast
contributors. He uas from California, San Ouan rar i tian »-r
and he was apparently a very dedicated benefactor of Mr.
Channell's and dedicated to the causa as he saw the cause of
fxeedom in Central America. ^^, . ^
• ^^ ... /^
Mr. Sacher, ue understand. had^^|_l ot of money to
wmm
748
NAHE: HIR2S7000 yj^yt.f-iOOB8 il-Si Pftr^ ,12
2753 Mr. Channell at that point and Mr. Sacher, according to rir .
27SU Channell, is the type of person uho wanted to have hands' on
2755 involvement and be kept abreast of some of the things ue
2756 uere doing with the television.
2757 He had^\^een interest in that, so on a number of
2758 occasions we would communicate directly with Mr. Sacher;
2759 sometimes Bob L - t pm a n would talk to him, sometimes I would on
2760 the telephone. He would make suggestions on scripts and
2761 copy being prepared for Kr . Channell.
2762 So that explains why we have a letter going to rtr .
2763 Sacher in the first place.
2764 2 Now, in the letter which is part of Exhibit 16, in
2765 the first paragraph you refer to our first meeting in the
2766 Indian War Treaty Room within the Old Executive Office
2767 Building a few months ago.
2768 What was that meeting, as you recall?
2769 A That was the one we had talked about earlier where
2770 Colonel Horth. Pat Buchanan, and a person whose name I can't
277 1 remember uho headed up the Office of Public Liaison, were
2772 present and spoke at various points.
2773 After that, ue had a reception of sorts at the Hay
2774 Adams Hotel.
2775 fi Co you recall the approximate date of that?
2776 A He uent to two functions of nr . Channell 's. I
2777 think one was in December of 1985 and one uas in January of
*SS1RED
l^LH^'}
749
NAME:
2778
zni<)
2180
2781
2782
2783
2784
2785
2786
2787
2788
2789
2790
2791
2792
2793
279U
2795
2796
2797
2798
2799
2800
280 1
2802
HIR2S7000
DNGlKSieEO
PAGE 113
1986. That is our recollection. We tried to find the exact
dates in our records and couldn't seem to locate them.
2 This letter is dated December 12, 1985. In the
first paragraph, you refer to a meeting a feu months ago
which I take it —
A Then I was mistaken. That uas the first meeting of
Spitz Channell's contractors where again Pat Buchanan,
Oliver North, and the head of the Office of Public Liaison
spoke, because ue were only in the War Treaty Room once in
our lives and that was the time.
2 What had your meeting with Mr. Sacher, consisted of
at that point?
A I can't recall specifically, Tom, but I am sure ue
met Fred Sacher at that particular meeting in the Indian War
Treaty Room and the reception that followed. I can't
imagine any other time we would have had the opportunity to
meet with Fred.
2 But you recall no specific discussion with Kr .
Sacher at that meeting?
A No, but it wouldn't surprise me if we talked to him
perhaps over cocktails at the Hay Adams.
2 In the second paragraph, you say ''Spitz Channell
and his associates met with top officials in the White House
about this project.''
To whom are you xefArring when you say ''top
IJNCLASSIFSB
750
NAME :
2803
280U
2805
2806
2807
2808
2809
2810
281 1
2812
2813
281U
2815
2816
2817
2818
2819
2820
2821
2822
2823
282i(
2825
2826
2827
.--00 iiNCUSSiriEi
PAGE 1 1 U
officials in the White House?''
A Ue were told that Spitz Channell and his associates
uere meeting with people in the White House. I can't recall
specifically who it was. It very well could have been and
probably certainly was Colonel North and I would--I can't
recall specifically, but I think it also included top
officials under the President; perhaps the President.
fi Who told you this?
A This is something we picked up just in the course.
I think, of conversations with Spitz Channell and Dan Conrad
and others.
2 Was Pat fiuchanan one of the officials?
A He may have been. I can't recall.
2 Did you draft this letter?
A Yes, I did.
8 Did you review it with Mr. Channell before you sent
it?
A I can't recall. I know our practice was when he
would request a letter be written, I would always send him a
copy to naktt sure it was okay and I assume I did this in
this case> too, or read him a copy over the phone.
C But at this point, you do not recall a specific
discussion where someone identified for you the top
officials in the White House that you are referring to?
A Oh, no, I don't.
a
mim
751
NAME ■■
2828
2829
2830
2831
2832
2833
283U
2835
2836
2837
2838
2839
28U0
28U1
28U2
28(43
28UM
28145
28146
2847
2848
2849
2850
285 1
2852
H1R2S7000 ysVjL>''-aOjs iuV
PAGE 1 15
2 Continuing on the first page of that letter aft^c
the paragraph. ''Let me bring you up to date.'*
There are three paragraphs beginning, ''First, as
yru recall,'' and going down through the paragraph that
ends, ''Freedom Fighters in late April or early Hay.''
A Yes.
2 In these three paragraphs, you appear to state a
philosophy behind this program or an approach of this
program .
Let me withdraw that question and I will rephrase
it.
In the first page of this letter, there are three
paragraphs beginning, ''First, as you recall. Bob Goodman
theorized--'' and continuing almost to the end of the page.
In those paragraphs, are you summarizing hou you
understood this pioneer attempt, to use the phrase in your
other memorandum, would operate?
A That is correct. See, in this whole thing, Tom,
Spitz Channell looked--he seemed--he and his associates seemed
to know very little about television.
In fact, they were very uninformed about how to use
it and how it interfaced with their objectives in their
campaigns or projects so they <C£-Ly upon us as the television
experts and they told us, you know, in broad outlines what
they wanted to accomplish.
752
NAME :
2853
2854
2855
2856
2857
2858
2859
2860
286 1
2862
2863
286U
2865
2866
2867
2868
2869
2870
287 1
2872
2873
2874
2875
2876
2877
• . ; • — ^' • ■• ' r, • J. 9
HIR257000 i,-«->;^, -i'li'-i^-.i iS ai PAGE 116
Our role was two-fold. One, to »p«Ttk-t« that creativel/
and ultimately leading to the production of television
spots; and second was to--frora a time perspective, Tom--give
then some sense of what it would cost and how they would
come together or whatever.
But really in the mechanical point of view in terms
of the time br- then any kind of strategic interface with Kr .
Channell and all of his associates and with later
Oi.ganizations were planning--so I could write a letter like
this knowing basically what ue were trying to do here.
Uhat we were trying to do on this project was very
clear, we were trying ultimately to influence public opinion
to exert pressure in influencing congressional opinion.
That is all that this letter and I think others that were
written by me, many requested by Kr . Channell. probably
almost all, if not all, requested by Mr. Channell, were all
about .
When I used the word ''our'' as opposed to the
program, it was our program, ue were the television arm of
Kr . Channell 's program and inasmuch as we were led to
believe or told that these memos or these pieces of research
were used by Mr. Channell among other things for fund-
raising with potential benefactors, Z guess I started to use
the word ''our'* to imply that ue weren't just some fly-by-
night production outfit that was given their project and had
753
NAME:
2878
2879
2880
288;
2882
2883
288>4
2885
2886
2887
2888
2889
2890
2891
2892
2893
28914
2895
2896
2897
2898
2899
2900
290 1
2902
PAGE 117
no sense of where ue were going uith it.
But beyond us being television experts, ue uere not
uhat we nornally are in caiiipaigns--to some degree, ue uere,
but in most campaigns, ue are media consultants.
Our job is multiiaceted , doing everything from
producing spots mmI acting as psychoanalysts for the
candidate .
In this case, as pointed out in a memo I wrote that
you have a copy of, I think in March or April 1986, when I
was requested by Hr . Conrad to critique the program to date,
the program being the Central American Freedom Fighters
Project--! want to make the clear point and statement that ue
had j B O < i n> f to do with the internal strategic planning of
tnis . Anything ue did that ultimately related to strategy
uas simply from the standpoint of budgeting and planning and
not from any kind of coercive or consultative activity uith
rtz . Channell or others who were obviously making the calls
on all these buys.
I don't want to get hung up on semantics on the
memo . I want you to know that was our intent and uas the
way u« approached the project.
Q On Exhibit 16, the paragraph beginning at the end
of the first page states that to be effective and remain in
sync uith White House lobbying efforts, we need to start
production on our first television spots in January.'"
M^mm
754
NAME ■■
2903
290U
2905
2906
2907
2908
2909
29 10
291 1
2912
2913
29 1U
2915
2916
29 17
29 18
2919
2920
2921
2922
2923
292U
2925
2926
2927
HIR25
PAGE 1 18
What did you mean by that?
A It was no seciet to anybody the White House was
pushing for this perhaps at the expense oi every other
project on the Administration menu.
The President is not only a die-hard supporter of
the contras politically, but personally. Anyone seeing hire
making speeches on this does not see a President reading
copy from a prepared text. He sees somebody who firmly
believes in the case.
So I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone,
certainly inside Washington, that the President was lobbying
hard for this.
I thought everything ue were doing uould jibe
nicely with what the President and other groups were doing
to promote the cause.
I know what your question is. The answer
specifically is we had--there was no connection that we knew
of between the White House lobbying effort and our
television commercials.
Wtt were aware that the White House was pushing like
crazy for this and that in a small way we were helping the
cause .
S Did you have any specific White House contact in
connection with this program?
A None. Our contact in all of this was Spitz
mmti
755
19
KAtlE: HIR2S7000 ysVULtWS.H^ O-V r kf ' 1
2928 Channell and his group,
2929 2 When you refer to being in sync with the Uhite
2930 House lobbying efforts, were you aware of any specific White
2931 House lobbying schedule?
2932 A Not m particular. It was clear--frora reading the
2933 papers, it was clear they were pushing hard on this thing.
2934 MR. FRYMAN: j ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
2935 Deposition Exhibit 17 for identification a letter from Mr.
2936 Goodman to Spitz Channell dated March 31, 1986.
2937 [Exhibit No. 17 was narked for identification.]
2938 BY MR. FRYMAN:
2939 2 Mr. Goodman, would you look at Exhibit 17 and tell
29U0 ne if you recognize that document?
2941 A I do.
2942 2 And that is a letter you sent to Mr. Channell?
29U3 A It is.
2944 2 Did he ask for this letter, or to phrase the
2945 question more broadly, why did you send him this letter?
2946 A This latter, Tom. was a summary to date of the
2947 freedom iightsts' talavision program. It may have been
2948 requested by Mr. Channell. I think it was. ^,
2949 I was asked the same question by Hal Bruno, i It was
2950 a good quastion. I can't imagine writing a letter like this
295 1 unless it ware requested by Mr. Channell.
2952 The letter summarizes where we were and where we
ONCUsino
756
HAME:
2953
29SU
2955
2956
2957
2958
2959
2960
2961
2962
2963
296>4
2965
2966
2967
2968
2969
2970
2971
2972
2973
2971*
2975
2976
2977
m •Vi'i'iori
HIR2S7000 8IJV,3 ■; ;; ^ -iWi'i SI PAGE 120
might be go^g".
2 Did you draft this letter?
A I did.
2 Did you have any understanding as to uhat use was
to be made of this letter?
A I can't recall, but I wouldn't be surprised if at
some point Mr. Channell didn't take this and reproduce it
for use in fund-raising.
2 Do you know the reason for the timing of this
letter, and by that, why you sent it in March?
A Uhen I did?
2 Yes.
A I an just reviewing the chronology. I prepared the
document. Exhibit 8--the program, the first part of the
program, the first flight referred to in that document, uas
flight 5, from March 3rd to Hay 1st.
In other words, •y<Ht ran television off and on in
selected markets throughout the course of that period and ue
came back after the vote failed the first tine and ran more
advertising on flight 6, which ran iron the 17th of June to
the 27th ^sponsored by a different organization. Sentinel.
This was written obviously in the middle of the
aiorenentionad flight 5 and I can't remember specifically
what it was about, but it is very clearly a summary of where
we are to date and also an encousagement to Hr . Channell and
757
NAHE
2978
2979
2980
2981
2982
2983
29814
2985
2986
2987
2988
2989
2990
2991
2992
2993
2994
2995
2996
2997
2998
2999
3000
300 1
3002
™. mm^i
HIR257goQ ri|V(a:!d ?^aT^?i* Z* fli PAGE 121
his supporters to keep up the good work, to stay behind this
paid television effort.
See/ in some sense. Torn, a uay of eKplaining this,
Mr. Channell seemed to have a lot of different ways of
skinning this cat called supporting the contras . He came
upon television, I think, relatively late in the process and
it was almost incumbent upon us as vendors and suppliers of
TV to him to tell our program.
It was like he had a laundry list of things he
could do- one of which was television and we were able to
sell contractors on the value of using television or Hr .
Channell was able to, and obviously he would use our
services and it would accrue to our benefit and this is part
of that idea.
Q Earlier we talked about Exhibit 15, which was a
self -described tome on the upcoming program looking
prospectively toward a program that was going to be
implemented over the next few months.
Is it correct to describe Exhibit 17 as a
description of a program that has already occurred?
A That has occurred--
2 Or is in the process of occurring —
A Yes.
2 And a substantial part of which has already been
completed?
758
NAME:
3003
3004
3005
3006
3007
3008
3009
3010
30 1 1
3012
3013
3014
3015
3016
3017
3018
3019
3020
3021
3022
3023
302M
3025
3026
3027
HIR257000 Ul^is'i^HO'J^S \l.h p
'AGE 122
A That is, correct.
2 Now, on the second page of Exhibit 17, you refer to
•targeted markets, covering the home districts of nearly
thirty Congressmen experts considered to be at the core of
the key 'suing vote' on contra funding.''
Were you the expert uho targeted those 30
Congressmen?
A Ho. That was a very eloquent way of saying--where
are we, on the last page?
On the second page.
A Page 2--
HR. SCOTT: Hake sure, if you want to retract your
last response, read that.
THE WITNESS: Yes. The experts being alluded to
there were essentially Hr . Channell and his associates.
BY HR. ERYHAN:
2 To make sure my understanding of this is correct
going back to Exhibit 15, which is the document dated
December 9. which is looking prospectively ahead toward the
program —
A Yes.
2 As I understand the criteria described in that
December 9, 1995 memorandum, those were to be criteria which
you applied in selecting honorees of your program?
A Which I defined as the Robert Goodman Agency with
\mM
^■rUV
759
NAME-
3028
3029
3030
3031
3032
3033
3034
3035
3036
3037
3038
3039
3040
30(41
3042
3043
3044
3045
3046
3047
3048
3049
3050
3051
3052
HIR257000 ^^ « t v""" x'" — - - PAGE 123
the purpose of providing a budgeting and planning tool for
us and Hr . Channell.
2 Does Exhibit 17 indicate that the actual targeting
of the markets was not done by the Robert Goodman Agency?
A That is correct.
2 Why the change?
A There was no change. As I have said, and to be
very clear about this, I in this document back in December
was selecting markets simply for the purposes of budgeting
and planning, not because I had any influence over Mr.
Channell's associates, over the actual targets to be
selected, not because I had any interest in being a part of
that process.
I was not a part of that process. No one in the
agency was a part of that process then or ever.
2 I must apologize, Mr. Goodman. I am confused and
let me try to clarify it for the record on this in case
somebody else is confused who might be reading it.
Going back to Exhibit IS, beginning with the third
paragraph, you say that you drafted, or to actually quote
the third paragraph, it states, '"He drafted our own listing
of these wavering Congressmen by looking at three key votes
on the rreedon Fighters this year.''
And then you go on to discuss decisive votes and
qualifiers .
UIIMSIFIEO
760
mrnmB
HAME: HIR257000 W3 .» i,' ft,.> i-l^^ ,:»/ j^ | l IL 1/ PAGE 124
30531 It was my understanding irom your prior ansuer that
3054 you and the Robert Goodman Agency is the person and entity
3055 that did the listing of the wavering Congressmen described
3056 m that paragraph.
3057 A Described with those as qualifiers, yes.
3058 e And that was the process by which at the time of
3059 the December 91, 1986 memorandum. Congressmen were to bo
3060 targeted as described in the second paragraph in that
306 1 memorandum?
3062 A Be careful in the way you are wording this because
3063 I think you are leading to a a»r tt t l.buti » >» that wasn't there.
30614 This was a planning document, and if you look at the date
3065 on this, this is December 9, 1985, almost a full three
3066 months prior to ^iM' first hitting the air in Harch 1986,
3067 three months in a relationship with the Channell
3068 organizations where we never--we described this as a frenetic
3069 relationship, but there were a lot of changes that would
3070 happen in the course of our relationship over such a large
307 1 period of time of three months.
3072 I did this December 9, 1985 document only for our
3073 own internal purposes, the purposes of the Robert Goodman
307>4 Agency in providing for ourselves and Mr. Channell a
3075 planning and budgeting document.
3076 Uhen I use the words ''we drafted our own
3077 listing,*' the qualifier is uere. This is my language based
I
mmwsi
761
naue
3078
3079
3080
3081
3082
3083
3084
3085
3086
3087
3088
3089
3090
3091
3092
3093
3094
309S
3096
3097
3098
3099
3100
3101
3102
mm AC^iqcn
,i,.s,coo uilbyyujj flu
H1R257000 V J *<»^«« ''-^■*"' " ■ '•*"■' PAGE 125
on an educated research analysis on the possible cost of
putting on a program of this magnitude.
It had nothing to do--I can't attest to what Mr.
Channell and Mr. Miller and others finally did or did not do
in terms of selections, but we had no direct knowledge or
input into the final selection or even tentative selection,
more importantly, of targets of this advertising.
2 Well, at the moment, Mr. Goodman, focusing on the
December 9, 1985 memorandum, which is Exhibit 15, on the
second page of the memorandum, you state, ''After we
determined the 'honotees' in each of these three categories,
we researched and compiled a listing of the media markc-cs
which cover their respective districts. '•
A ''He,'' in this case, is the same as ''our'' on the
f.i.rst page. It is the Robert Goodman Agency doing a media
study for the purposes of planning and budgeting.
e And it is the Robert Goodman Agency that was
determining the honoreas?
A That is correct.
2 That was by applying the criteria set forth in the
preceding paragraph?
A Established by ma with no input from anybody, just
an educated way of trying to put together a plan, a
blueprint to give us a sense of where we axa going.
2 When you say in that paragraph, ''wa determined the
■^^muimi
762
NAHE-- HIR257000 | 1| ♦ 'J ^ iolTl^a* ^ '- •• PA--^ 126
3103 'honorees , ' ' ' ua? that not the process oi targeting those
3104 Congressmen who, by virtue oi their record on Nicaragua,
3105 seemingly have yet to make up their mind on the extent of
3106 their commitment to that part of the world that you
3107 described in the second paragraph of that December 9
3108 memorandum?
3109 A That is correct. That is true, yes.
3110 MR. SCOTT: Before we go any further with this, I
3111 think everybody is getting confused. If we could go off the
3112 record .
3113 MR. FRYHAN: Fine.
31 m Off the record .
3115 [Discussion off the record. I
3116 HR. FRYHAN: Back on the record.
3117 BY MR. FRYHAN:
3118 2 Hr . Goodman, in your Harch 31, 1986 letter to Hr .
3119 Channell, which is Exhibit 17, on the second page where you
3120 refer to ''these targeted markets, covering the home
3121 districts of nearly thirty Congressmen,'' what is the
3122 relationship between the targeted markets referred to in
3123 your March 31 letter and the list of wavering Congressmen
31214 which you describe in your December 9, 1985 memorandum?
3125 A Ton, without reviewing the record, I have no idea
3126 what the correlation is because I know that the ultimate
3127 selection of targets, so to speak, was something that Hr .
t
Mimm
763
HAKE:
3128
3129
3130
3 131
3132
3133
31314
3135
3136
3137
3138
3139
31>40
31U1
31U2
3143
3144
3145
3146
3147
3148|
3149
3150
3151
3152
HIR2S7000 Vli^^"" ' " PAGE 127
Channell and Mr. Miller and others did and unless I compared
the documant. Exhibit 15, uith the actual time buy that was
placed starting on Harch 3rd and running thr ough--actually
running through also the Sentinel part of the campaign in
June o£ 1986, I couldn't really respond to that question
without that review.
In other words, I can't recall offhand. I don't
know offhand what correlations there are .
2 Again to try to clarify this, in your Harch 31
letter, you refer to "'targeted markets covering the home
districts of nearly thirty Congressmen experts considered to
be at the core of the key 'swing vote' on contra funding.''
Uho do you understand selected those targeted
markets?
A Well, I know that the marching orders for the
selections came from Mr. Channell and others associated with
him. The modus operandi with this and other projects when
they were talking about situations where they were targets
involved was I or someone in the agency, but normally I
would receive a telephone call normally from Spitz Channell
who would say, ''Okay, Adam, I want you to do these spots so
they affect these Congressmen,'' and he would give me a list
of Congressmen.
Sometimes he called back and changed his mind, took
certain Congressmen off and added others, sometimes he
764
NAME:
3153
315<4
3155
3156
3157
3158
3159
3160
316 1
3162
3163
316U
3165
3166
„... iimSSFM
HIR257000 UliV*"'''"^* PAGE 128
canceled the program outright, but Spitz Channell was the
one and others who ue came to understand were associated
with him who would call and give us what I call the marching
orders on the actual selections oi the targets.
2 Going further in your March 31 letter, tir . Goodman,
on pages 2 and 3 you list seven commercials, ''Terrorist
Influence,'' ''Refugees,'* ''Facts,'* ''Helicopters,''
''They Are Us , ' ' ''Tip's Shame," and ''Letter.'' And you
indicate that these were seven commercials that were
produced and designed to dramatize facts and information
having a direct bearing on the whole issue.
If you would look again at Exhibit 3, which is the
list of completed commercials, ''Tip's Shame'' is not on
that list, and my question is, why is it not?
I
UNCUS:
:if;
765
HAKE :
3167
3168
3169
3 170
317 1
3172
3173
3174
3175
3176
3177
3178
3179
3180
3181
3182
3183
318(4
3185
3186
3187
3 188
3189
3190
3191
mmm\Ei
HIR257000 lljji^g i ^i Whii-'il PAGE 129
RPTS THOMAS
DCnN PARKER
[4:00 p.m.]
BY MR. FRYMAM:
2 Also ii you would look at Exhibit 8. and your
listing oi spots used in Flight Five, which I believe is the
flight that covers the period that you are describing in
this letter, ''Tip's Shares' ' is not listed in that flight,
as well.
I will broaden my question to ask you why it is not
included in Flight Five set forth in Exhibit 8, as well as
in your listing that is Exhibit 3.
A I wish I knew the answer to that. I don't know. I
can speculate if that is appropriate. One possible reason
is perhaps that we never ran the spot on television. I
don't recall,, that was reflected in our station invoice or
not. I remember there was a real debate whether to do a
spot. It was a 10-second spot, where then Speaker of the
House, Tip O'Heill had said something about it being a
disaster, talking of something he was saying about the
Nicaragua contras, he said something to the effect in part
it would be a disaster and shame for this country to support
Nicaragua resistance, and Mr. Channel thought that was
marvelous in rallying the troops, and we produced a 10-
second s4v»^ to do that.
WEIMF
766
NAME
3192
3193
3 194
3195
3196
3197
3198
3199
3200
320 1
3202
3203
3204
3205
3206
3207
3208
3209
3210
321 1
3212
3213
3214
3215
3216
mm hmiim
I don't recall having aired it. Why it wasn't on
the list of final production--i t should have been. I think
there were things on here that didn't run other than that.
I know it was renamed, ''Flag''. That is why. The spot
called flag under NEPL in this list that is the same thing
as ''Tip's Shame.'' Just renamed, unfortunately. I didn't
know it was renamed after the fact or whatever.
I had the wrong name on this thing.
8 Now. if you would look again at Exhibit 8, m the
description of Flight Five, there is an indication that
''Throw Honey'' was one of the advertisements in Flight
Five, and you do not list ''Throw Money'' in your Harch 31
letter.
Do you know why that was omitted?
A It might have been, I think it was »4M last spot ue
produced. I will have to look back on my invoices on the
production at that tima . Kaybe it was either inadvertent
oversight or produced after this was written.
MR. SCOTT: Page three.
THE WITNESS: Tha memo was written in March 31. It
might hava been produced after March 31. Let's look at the
script, I guess.
(Discussion held off the record. ]
THE WITNESS: ''Throw Money ,' '^ produced April 7,
1986. The spot was produced after this memo was written.
767
.XR257000 Ui^iuLh;J^^5H£U p,,
NAME: H1K2S/UU0 rvsruj-wajso ■«.'•»•* a v-»~- PAGE 131
3217 Also I uant to make clear for the record that m this memo
3218 and other documents you produced, ue uere really trying to
3219 m part sell the success of this program, and we creatively
3220 interpreted everything, all the inputs ue were getting from
322 1 Mr. Channel and others in presenting what this program was
3222 all about, whether it be in a letter requested by Mr.
3223 Channel to Mr. Channel, or a letter requested by Mr. Channel
-^- ■-• .- »»
322U to Fred Sa c k o r whoever it may be.
3225 MR. FRYHAH: All right. I would ask the reporter
3226 to mark as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 18 for identification
3227 a document produced by counsel for the Goodman agency,
3228 headed ''NEPL Freedom Fighters Campaign, a Summary Review,'*
3229 and it is dated on the second page, April 30, 1986.
3230 . [Goodman Deposition Number 18 was marked for
3231 identification.]
3232 BY MR. FRYHAH:
3233 2 I show you Exhibit 18, Mr. Goodman, and ask if you
323(4 recollect that document.
3235 A I do.
3236 2 Did you prepaza this document?
3237 A I did.
3238 2 Why was this document prepared?
3239 A Dan Conzad called ma at some point prior to the
3240 preparation, prior to this, and asked what they had done
32U1 right and wrong, what we felt from our perspective they mean
768
PAGE 132
NAME: HIR257000 J V * ^S. f ' ^, ■; ? i ' i - . -. >
3242 Jtfi* , ACT, had do'ne well or not so well in the freedom
3243 fighters campaign to date. Its preparation was April 30,
3244 1986, so that uas still done prior to the ultimate vote in
3245 1986 on contra aid in June of that year.
3246 Dan said tell us hou you think «e are doing, good
3247 or bad. Give us your critiques. So I sat down and I might
3248 have consulted with other people in the agency. I can't
3249 recall, and just in a about an hour and a half wrote th.-i.":
3250 document, and I think it is important, I guess you are going
325 1 to cover each and every point.
3252 The most salient point to one of the points that
3253 was being discussed earlier in this deposition is under the
3254 heading, ''The Team, ' ' and I think that should go into the
3255 record because what I was really saying in there was, look,
3256 Mr. Channel, you have not only us but our understanding ^they
3257 had other aidr advisers who may or may not be known-- Arthur
3258 r iii g l fc al u if doing the polling, had a sense he had a PR firm
3259 we knew about, ftdaJLaan Associates or something.
3260 So wa knew he was bringing in a number--more than two--a<
326 1 two ox aoztt ^ oijitsida advisors, people who had been around
3262 for a while , '^flight have k«*4t some good judgments about
3263 certain things, what I was really doing under this, they had
3264 gone ■ I was conplalning in hindsight. I an glad it was
3265 never followed up, complaining you have all of those
3266 considered experienca<>in the field, sp ecially political, and
iiU ill
769
NAnr :
3267
3268
3269
3270
3271
3272
3273
3274
327S
3276
3277
3278
3279
3280
3281
3282
3283
328U
3285
3286
3287
3288
3289
3290
3291
HIR2S7000
PAGf 133
you are not using it. why not once in a uhile sit down uith
us and your other advisors and :ust do a round table
discussion of hou your campaign is going and maybe get from
that meeting for your purpose, some good ideas that you can
carry forthwith the rest of this project and campaign and
others to follow.
2 In that paragraph that you are referring to, you
stated that, ''Finally, uithin a number of political
singles, the participation of a Bob Goodman or Bob Te-t«r
will give NEPL an additional shot of credibility beyond the
Olivar Northland Elliott Abraras.''
A Yes.
Q Bob Goodman, your father, as head of the agency.
Hho is Bob Teter?
A Bob T«-fc«^E is the President and/or Chairman of the
Beard of MOR, Market Opinion Research, a very highly
respected national polling firm, primarily political. As I
understand it, he is working for a number of people right
now, statewide candidates. I think he is doing polling for
the Prasidant, or has been for sometime, and I think he is
Involved in one of the Presidential campaigns on the
Republican side of the fence, as well.
2 Was ha involved in tha Channel activity?
A I don't recall. I might have used him as an
example of tha kind of parson whose involvement might really
mumm
82-710 0-88-26
770
KAME:
3292
3293
3294
3295
3296
3297
3298
3299
3300
3301
3302
3303
33014
3305
3306
3307
3308
3309
3310
331 1
3312
3313
331(4
3315
3316
HIR257000 t«lliJl„J 4'^,^^J'^ 3 1^-^ PAGE ,34
help. AlsOjvSend' a signal to the Washington community that
Mr. Channel, who is really basically a newcomer, only^iaAiv
on the scene, so to speak, for a handful of years, give him
some credibility in a political sense that he wouldn't have,
I think, without that.
8 Uhat did you mean in that sentence that I quoted by
the phrase, ''beyond the Oliver Morth and Elliott Abraras?''
A Well. Oliver North had addressed that group of fund-
raisers, potential benefactors of Mr. Channel's cause and
was obviously very involved in the contra effort. And
Elliott Abrams--ray recollection was--speaker at the second
fund-raising event we attended in 1986, early 1986, so I
knew that those two, of course by reading the papers,
Elliott Abrams is the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter
American or Central American Affairs, obviously.
He was a key player in the public perception sense,
but they covered their linkage to them, I think, covered one
part of the puzzle. The other part was the more politxcal
part of the puzzle. Why I think Hr . Channel could and he
eventually, as you Know, brought in «t. Lyn/T ICUlJiiigui . I
dv,n't know if I was aware of Mr. Mof si ngnr ' i participation
at that point, or in hindsight after I heard of his
involvement or not, but this was on the political side of
the equation where I thought Hr . Channel was a little bit
more naive, maybe, about the political sensibility out
771
NAME :
3317
3318
3319
3320
3321
3322
3323
33214
3325
3326
3327
3328
3329
3330
3331
3332
3333
333U
3335
3336
3337
3338
3339
3340
33U1
HIR2S7000 ISi^tH^. i-ftrfTa<l» li-rJ' PAGE 135
there, particularly as it relates to this issue.
2 Is what you have described the only basis for your
reference to Oliver North and Elliott Abrams in that
sentence that I read?
In other words, is there any other reason other
than what you have stated why you referred to them there?
A Mo. As you can see in the way I wrote this memo
and other mamorandun and the bulk docunants . I do have a
ilae* for the dramatic, but. in most cases, it is really
'f?
designed to push our case.
Television was successful qm having an important
part of the freedom fighters campaign.
Q You sent this to Mr. Conrad.
A Yes.
2 Did you discuss this memo after you sent it with
anyone in the Channel organization.
A To tell you the truth. I don't think I did. In
fact, I was a little bit upset there was no discussion. I
thought it was a pretty good document.
2 How, as of April 30. 1986. do the costs of. do the
costs reflact in the market summary, which is attached to
this summary review?
A Yes.
2 Reflect to the best of your knowledge the media
time purchase in those markets as of that data?
mmsM!,
772
w ft h S ■* ? .':^ '<». -, ' Co - >yi 9 1
NAME:
3342
3343
3344
3345
3346
3347
3348
3349
3350
3351
3352
3353
3354
3355
3356
3357
3358
3359
3360
3361
3362
3363
3364
3365
3366
mm a?? y
HIR257000 l?i?,iS,.8 .->.',.>,,;•. 5 ? •■ as PAGE 136
MR. SCOTT: You mean relative to the freedom
fighter campaign itself?
MR. FRYHAN: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, it does. I just reviewed
document 8 again under Flight Five, and all I had was close
to 560,000, and the figure here is 550,000. I am sure that
is a--
MR. FRYMAN: As I understand it, it was the
procedure within the agency to use the phrase, ''freedom
fighters . ' '
THE WITNESS: Yes, Sir.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
Q Or freedom fighter campaign to cover a series of
advertisements .
A Yes. Mr. Channel has made a point of referring to
them as freedom fighters as opposed to contras, which seems
to be a point well taken. A little more oo m p a i ihlc r .'
perception .
2 Are the freedom fighter T.V. advertisements or the
spots listed on page three of Exhibit 8 under the heading
Flight Five?
A Yes, sir, they are.
fi Is that correct?
A That is correct.
MR. FRYMAN: off the record.
wmMM
773
NAnE :
3367
3368
3369
3370
337 1
3372
3373
33714
3375
3376
3377
3378
3379
3380
3381
3382
3383
338<4
3385
3386
3387
3388
3389
3390
3391
HIR257000 u I '^ 'i;i..reU V i ^ :' LU
^ V' PAGE 137
MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 19 for identification a document produced
by counsel for the Goodman Agency, which has on the first
page the phrase. ''Ue are Democrats who believe Nicaragua
worth saving from Communism oppression.'* and headed on the
second page. ''PRODEKCA.
[Goodman Deposition Exhibit Number 18 was marked
for identification. 1
BY HR. FRYHAN:
8 I show you Deposition Exhibit 19 for
identification. I ask you if you recognize that document.
A Yes. I do.
2 What is that document?
A Hell, w* met once. He. meaning Bob Goodman and
myself, met in a bar in the botton. of the Hay Adams--seems
like everything goes back to the Hay Adams. Ue . that day.
met with Spitz Channel and someone else. It may have been
Dan Conrad and f en K imb af and somebody else--Hr. Cook. Has
that the person? Tom Cook or--
2 Ara you zeiexring to Stave Cook oi the Adelman
Agency?
A Yes, sir, and there may have been other people
4>a8a>. I can't recall. And the discussion was nr . Channel
had dis e usae d us -fee- a e ^ with Tnan KiWnirt . There was a group
called PRODEHC^/, gtoupf of filemoctats who Spitz told us might
774
NAHE: HIR2S7000 I f ^''^ lij LH vf *■->' ^ ^ i i>^^* PAGE 138
3392 be interested in supporting the administration points of
3393 < lv a or something similar to that, vis-a-vis the freedom
339^ fighters, and I don't recall many specifics ftround- the
3395 conversation around the table-- Pen Kimbal ' and others
3396 explaining uhat they are all about.
3397 And ^iirst sheet you see in this exhibit. Torn,
3398 Exhibit 19, uas something I believe ray father drafted either
3399 prior to or following the meeting. Ue were told about the
3U00 meeting in advance^that was either going to be used as a
3U01 piece of copy that uas -either going to be used in a print
3'402 ad, perhaps in the Washington Post and other things, or as
31403 part of a television spot. I can't remember which, but
314OM nothing came of the PRODEKCA involvement as far as we were
3U05 concerned after that meeting. It all seemed to drop.
3'406 The spot or printed ad or whatever it uas uas never
SUO? done and never heard of or about 't4GB.s4^K9Efc**Mv again.
3U08 2 So that uas the only contact you had with Hr .
3M09 Kimbal.
3(4 10 A That is true.
sun . HR. FRYnAN: All right. I ask the reporter to mark
3U12 as Goodman Exhibit 20, for identification, a document
3>413 produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, which has at the
3141 14 top of the first page the words, ''Themes.''
314I5 [Goodman Deposition Exhibit Number 20 uas marked
3M16 for identification. ]
775
NAME :
3m7
3418
3U 19
3U20
31421
3U22
31423
31424
3425
3426
3427
3428
3429
3430
3431
3432
3433
3434
3435
3436
3437
3438
3439
3440
3441
HIR257000 W«:;-i?l.,H '.o .(^ .. -\ : i t^ JB PAGE 139
BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you EKhibit 20 and I ask if you
recognize that document.
A No .
2 Do you know the source of that document?
A No, to tell you the truth it may have come from our
files somewhere. I don't recall having read this or what it
refers to.
HR. FRYMAN: All right, I ask the reporter to mark
as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 21 for identification, a
document produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, which
appears to be two pages of polling data.
[Goodman Deposition Exhibit 21 was marked for
identification. ]
BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 Mr. Goodman. I show you Exhibit 2 1 and I ask you if
you recognize that document.
A Yes, I do.
2 What is that?
A As I recall. Spitz Channel either gave this to me,
sent it to ma or some other way had it delivered to me or
other people at the agency, and it was out of some poll he
had dona. I forget whaxa it was done, why it was done. If
in fact it ware aver acknowledged about any of those points .
Obviously in reading through this, I recall it had something
». -• a >. f. r) ^11
» «: ;j r ^3
776
NAME-
34U2
3UU3
3UUU
3UUS
3446
3447
3448
3449
3450
3451
3452
3453
3454
3455
3456
3457
3458
3459
3460
3461
3462
3463
3464
3465
3466
HIR257000 y^^^Sg^f'^^'JfjJid «i-!t.* PA'^': 140
to do with showing the degree of support in Central America
for certain things, including the contras.
2 Do you know who prepared the poll?
A No, I don't, to tell you the truth.
2 Did you make any use o£ this?
A No.
A I think he just gave that to us for informational
purposes .
HR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 22 for identification, two sheets
proc'uced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, the first sheet
headed, ''Fidel's Warning,'' and a second sheet headed,
• 'New York Times . ' '
[Goodman Deposition Exhibit 22 was marked for
identification. ]
BY MR. FRYHAN:
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 22 for
identification, and ask you if you recognize either of those
pages ?
A Yes, I do, I am not sure. Can I read this for a
second?
2 Yes.
A Yes, I do recognize it. I think this was a copy we
got most probably from Hr . Channel, if not *f^ his
associates, probably Hr . Channel. A lot of times he would
777
UNCUSSiFitiJ
PAGE mi
NAHE: HIR2S7000
3467 prepare certain spots, and these uere two spots that he
3468 proposed that ue do at some point along the way, and I don't
3469 know if we ever did them in another form or not, certainly
3U70 not in this form.
S"^'! 2 Do you recognize the handwriting on the second
3472 page.
3473 A That is ray handwriting.
3'*'7'* 2 What does the notation at the right that appears to
3475 say, ''R.R. Speech at C/SPAH,'' and then an arrow to Oliver
3476 North. What does that refer to?
3477 A Tom, as I recall, Reagan had given some speech that
3478 Mr. Channel thought ue might be able to use in one or more
3479 television spots, and I said, ''Look, you have to be crazy
3480 if you think you can get a Presidential speech. Maybe you
3481 can get it from C/Span.'*
3482 . He may have suggested to us ue contact Colonel
3483 North's office to see if he could find a uay or kneu a way
3484 of getting C/SPAN footage from C/SPAN or any other group
3485 that might be willing to share such footage or sell it for a
3486 price. But I don't recall beyond that reference, don't
3487 recall any contact with his office or follou-up on this at
3488 all.
3489 Ht . Channel — this may clarify on this point and
3490 Others. Mr. Channel was almost your personification of an
349 1 idea man. He used to say he got more ideas^a half hour in
WWSSIfff
778
HAKE:
3492
31493
3494
3U95
3496
3497
3498
3499
3500
3501
3502
3503
3504
3505
3506
3507
3508
3509
3510
351 1
3512
3513
3514
3515
3516
HIR257000
PAGE 142
the shower tha^n any other time during the day, and he uas
constantly throwing,(>(l4f f erent ideas ior different projects,
different spots, and whatever else at us, and/ijust added to
what I have described as a frenetic atmosphere surrounding
our relationship with Mr. Channel, an atmosphere that
- J . ...
yerneate-d his desire to make his organizations effective.
MR. FRYMAM: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 23 for Identification, three pages
produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, headed,
' 'Hicaragua Facts . ' '
(Goodman Deposition Exhibit Number 23 was marked
for identification. J
BY HR. FRYMAN:
fi Mr. Goodman, I show you Deposition Exhibit 23 and I
ask you if you recognize those pages .
A Vaguely.
Q Do you know the source of these pages?
A I can't recall. I know that not necessarily
relatiVA to this particular document >uhen ue needed to get
facts in preparation of tiM T.V. spots ue were always
insistent our facts be irrefutable; that they be
d:cumentabla and in most cases ue got information from
publicly available documents produced by the State
Department, the Defense Department on other places.
X assume this looks like and appears to me to be a
779
HIR25
PAGE 143
NAME :
3517 document that we probably received from Mr. Channel.
3518 Whether ha prepared this or not, I can't recall. I can
3519 hardly recall the documents. It gave us talking points or
3520 fact points for future use in television spots.
3521 HR. FRYHAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
3522 Deposition Exhibit 24 for identification a document produced
3523 by counsel for the Goodman Agency.
3524 . [Goodman Deposition Exhibit 24 was marked for
3525 identification.)
3526 BY MR. FRYHAK:
3527 fi Which has a list of names and a series of H's, and
3528 some handwriting at the lower right-hand section of the
3529 page, which appears to begin with the phrase, ''Flag on
3530 Wall.''
3531 A Correct.
3532 2 Do you recognize that document?
3533 A I recognize my handwriting.
3534 e Do you recall the conversation where you made those
3535 notes If indeed you made them during a conversation, or to
3536 rephrase the question, do you recall when you made those
3537 notes?
3538 A It looks very — I think I would be safe in almost
3539 making the solid assumption without vivid recollection this
3540 looks like a conversation I probably had with Hr . Channel oii
asm the phone where he covered a number of different things.
780
HAME :
3SU2
35U3
35UU
3SUS
35146
3547
3548
3549
3550
3551
3552
3553
3554
3555
3556
3557
3558
3559
3560
3561
3562
3563
3564
3565
3566
HIR257000 yi'^^g^n^^B^ iimi^ PAGE 144
flag on wall looks like the first part uhich is
flag on wall, should drop the bomb on Geneva, drop a bomb
for peace. That is vintage, Hr . ■Ghaii m an" . Yes. I think it
is some copy I guess he might have had for a spot. I have
no idea whether we ever did anything with that or not.
2 What does the —
A Then there are some references to ''high frontier
concerned scientists.'' Those were two other public
interest groups that had. I believe--had sponsored television
ads for SDI. pushing SDI and b e coain g competitors to Hr .
Channel .
It was a side issue which was again a heck-of-a->lot
of press and attention and Hr . Channel was going to make
sure he wouldn't f orget.find iRinge Hedia t^jB- reference there.
Kr . Channel roust have told me Ringe Media was doing that
theme or I learned that by calling the station in Washington
::■■ r- _ ' - I. -•^
where they am doing the advertising. I can't recall
specif ically,Snd farther down there was another group called
Committee for a Strong and Peaceful America or something to
that effect; that was on the other side of the ''Star Wars''
issue, and their spots either, >told or discovered were being
• • ^ ' V i
produced by Bob gquite5 . a very prominent and very skilled
political media consultant, primarily, if not exclusively,
for Democratic candidates.
Reference to Rich Pollock Associates, I don't know.
781
NAME: HIR2S7000
msim
PAGE IMS
3567
3568
3569
That IS a name of an agency that does one or more of these
campaigns, looks like notes during a conversation I most
likely had with Mr. Channel.
782
NAME :
3570
3571
3572
3573
3574
3575
3576
3577
3578
3579
3580
3581
3582
3583
358(4
3585
3586
3587
3588
3589
3590
3591
3592
3593
359U
HIR2S7000 PAGE 1i*6
RPTS STEIM
DCHH DANIELS
lU : 30 p.m. 1
2 What do the numbers signiiy, 5-7-9?
A I don't know.
Q Ringe Media, was that the same agency that prepared
Exhibit 1?
A Yes.
MR. FRYriAH: I ask the reporter to mark as Exhibit
25 two pages produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency
headed ''Targeted Districts.''
[Exhibit Ho. 25 was marked for identification. ]
KR. FRYMAN: And as Exhibit 26 two pages produced
by counsel for the Goodman Agency, the first page is headed
''Republicans Mho Voted Against Reagan Plan to Aid Nicaragua
Freedom Fighters . ' '
(Exhibit No. 26 was marked for identification.]
BY MR. FRYMAN:
S Mr. Goodman, if you would look at Exhibits 26 and
26, and tall ne if you recognize either of those exhibits?
A I recognize both.
2 Okay.
Bsginning with 25. what was the source of Exhibit
25?
A To my best recollection, the source of this
783
NAHE
3S9S
3S96
3597
3598
3599
3600
360 1
3602
3603
3604
3605
3606
3607
3608
3609
3610
361 1
3612
3613
361H
3615
36 16
3617
3618
3619
HIR257000 UllULHU'rJ? iLi/ PAC- 147
document was Rich Miller.
2 And what was the source ox Exhibit 26?
A Either Mr. Channell or one of his associates or
Rich Millar.
2 Do you recall the approximate date that you
received Exhibit 25?
A I wish I did. I really don't. I believe it was
19S6 at soma point, but I can't recall exactly when.
2 It was in connection with the votes in 1986 and not
1985?
A
2
Miller?
A
I believe it was, yes.
Did you have discussions of this list with Mr.
Mo .
I mean no substantive discussions.
I forgot
the process here, but I just remember receiving this and
» t)ii s' at that point I think was a list of targets that I
assumed he and Mr. Channell and others had selected. But if
you compare this with the buy.uhich it went, «»tji my vague
recollection was there are a lot of changes between this
list and that list and the final buy that was actually made.
2 Just taking the first line of Exhibit 25 or the
line that begins with the name ''Hutto,*' H-u-t-t-o, what
does the reference in the next column, d.1 — what does that
refer to?
A Having not prepared the document, I will make the
784
NAME :
3620
3621
3622
3623
36214
3625
3626
3627
3628
3629
3630
3631
3632
3633
363U
3635
3636
3637
3638
3639
36140
3641
36U2
36143
3614 14
HIR2S7000 r^;i a t -^ ■'-■• ?t.GZ 1 48
assumption, I understand that to mean congressional district
1 in Florida.
e Further to the right there is the phrase ''Panama
City TV/R/M, Pensacola TV/R/M.*'
What do you understand those references refer to?
A I would understand those references refer to the
fact that in Congressman Hutto's district, the i««tre is
covered by television coming from Panama City and Pensacola
as well as radio and newspaper.
Q Oo you have any recollection of a discussion with
anyone of Exhibit 25?
A I don't.
2 Kou, Exhibit 25, you believe, came from Mr.
Channell?
A Or Hr. Miller. You know, I guess in our thinking
we saw them as interchangeable.
2 Has this received soma time in 1986?
A I don't recall.
2 Do you recall any discussion with anyone about
Exhibit 26?
A Ko, I don't.
2 Do you know why Exhibit 26 was sent to you?
A No.
MR. fRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 27 for identification a letter from Mr.
mm hW^\?,
785
■fi .*\Tr"3'
KAHE: HIR2S7000
PAGE 1M9
3645
36U6
36147
36U8
36149
3650
3651
3652
3653
3654
3655
3656
3657
3658
3659
3660
366 1
3662
3663
3664
3665
3666
3667
3668
3669
Goodman to Ellen Garwood dated October 31, 1985.
(Exhibit No. 27 was marked for identification.!
BY MR. FRYHAN:
2 Mr. Goodman. I show you Deposition Exhibit 27. Do
you recall sending that letter to Mrs. Garwood?
A I do.
2 Hhat was the reason you sent that to Mrs. Garwood?
A Per Mr. Channell's request.
2 Was such a letter to a potential contributor an
unusual request by Mr. Channell?
A for the same reason we sent that letter you have
already entered into the exhibits to Fred Sacher. It was
somewhat unusual, but once in a while Spitz would call and
say, ''Would you mind sending the schedule of the TV spots
to air in so-and-so market to a particular person.'" Ellen
Garwood, as explained to us, was one of the major
benefactors of Mr. Channell and his operations and we knew
she lived in Austin, Texas.
He made it a point to make sure we placed
advertising time in Austin. Texas the market covering her
area even in cases where there was no one down there that
Mr. Channell wanted to affect.
Ha wanted to show Mrs. Garwood that he was alive
and well and ^dvwL ling was all over the map.
That is my assumption. That is the reason I wrote
mm
786
NAHE:
3670
3671
3672
3673
367U
367S
3676
3677
3678
3679
3680
3681
3682
3683
368U
3685
3686
3687
3688
3689
3690
369 1
3692
3693
369t(
PAGE 150
HIR257000
it the way I did-.
2 So there were at least several occasions where nr .
Channell asked you to write letters to assist hire m raising
iunds for a media campaign?
MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question.
I don't think it has been established that this was done to
raise funds per se . I think your question implies that this
letter was written to raise funds.
How Kr . Channell used it hasn't been established
exactly and I don't see a direct request for money.
MR. FRYHAM: Well, I will withdraw the question.
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Mr. Goodman, what did you understand was tha reason
for this letter?
A The reason for the letter, I understood it as t»«s
the reason. at different times itf placing TV buys in Austin,
Texas, was for Mr. Channell to show Mrs. Garwood that this
campaign was alive and well.
May I make the assumption, it seems to be the
obvious assumption he wanted to keep Mrs. Garwood and other
major contzibutors content with tlit progress or the success
of the campaign.
S Did you draft this letter or was this letter —
A I drafted this letter.
2 Now, the earlier letter that ue have discussed that
m
05
ffe
J
787
NAME:
3695
3696
3697
3698
3699
3700
3701
3702
3703
3704
370S
3706
3707
3708
3709
37 10
37 1 1
3712
3713
3714
371S
3716
3717
3718
3719
mumm ..
HIR257000 ■>-'" -wn.!! »v*\i?IJi 3 I. IU» PAGE 151
you sent to Mr. Sacher--
A Yes.
2 It is your understanding, is it not, that that
letter was part of an effort to seek assistance from Mr.
Sacher in the form of a contribution to the proposed media
campaign?
MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question
as well. It hasn't been established in the testimony that
that was the purpose of that letter, to solicit funds.
Do you want to ask hire if that was the purpose of
that letter perhaps that would be a good way to go, but I
don't believe it has been established in previous testimony.
MR. FRYHAH: I withdraw the question and I will
rephrase it.
BY MR. FRYMAH:
S Mr. Goodman, referring again to Exhibit 16, which
is your December 12, 1985 letter to Mr. Fred Sacher, in the
second paragraph of that letter, you state, ''Ue are now
prepared to put our program into action and yet, without
your help, we may never reach first base.'*
Now, did you understand by sending that letter you
were assisting Mr. Channell in seeking contributions from
Mr. Sacher for a media program?
MR. SCOTT: I object to the question, but you can
go ahead and answer it.
tf^inc.
lUSSlHt'
788
3720
372 1
3722
3723
3724
3725
3726
3727
3728
3729
3730
3731
3732
3733
373<4
3735
3736
3737
3738
3739
37U0
37141
37M2
37M3
37^U
PAGE 152
THE HITHESS: All of our work ior Spitz Channell
dapanded 0tt obviously funding as any part of this program
did. Ue were never an active part of the fund-raising
effort.
At times, I was directed to write letters that
extolled the virtues of the program and if appropriate, our
perception of the success of the program to date.'' And if
the question is, was the Goodman Agency involved in raising
money for Mr. Channell, I must humhly say, and emphatically,
no .
If the question is did anything we do contribute at
least tangentially to Kr . Channell in terms of his fund-
raising or fund-raising success, I think that is a fair word
to use, then X have to say yes.
BY KR. FRYHAK:
S Uell, in connection with whether the Goodman Agency
was involved in assisting Mr. Channell in raising funds, Mr.
Goodman, if you would turn to the second page of Exhibit 16,
in the last paragraph, where you state, ''If you have any
questions or suggestions, please don't hesitate to call Bob
Goodman ox myself. Otherwise, we suggest that you contact
Spitz Channell directly to ascertain the precise timing and
transfer of funding needed to launch this critical 'next
step. ■ ' •
Mow, in writing that paragraph, was it urgent to
8
789
KRHE ■
37U5
3746
3747
3748
3749
3750
3751
3752
3753
3754
3755
3756
3757
3758
3759
3760
3761
3762
3763
3764
3765
3766
3767
3768
3769
HIR2S7000 Hi^n^ KA^^^^ M g]
PAGE 153
assist Mr. Channell in fund-raising?
MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of the question.
THE UITMESS: When ue produced, for instance, the
story boards that have already been offered into evidence
and when we produced, at times produced extra half-inch
copies of a certain spot or spots that had been produced and
It uas ordered more in bulk, relative bulK--obviously it was
our impression that ftr . Channell was going to use these
materials and other things for the purpose of, Ko . 1,
Keeping his benefactors appraised of the effort; and 2, I
think it is obvious to continue encouraging them to remain
loyal to Mr. Channell and his cause vis-a-vis contributions.
I don't think that is anything that Mr. Channell
tried to hide, certainly it is nothing we would try to hide.
We as the suppliers of television were very interested in
trying to see if this program would be successful and be
given a chance to be successful and upon Mr. Channell's
direction at times we were directed to write letters that
talked about the program in a way not to disparage the
prospects for success of the television aspect of his
campaign. But to extol those prospects and to encourage
further support.
I want to make cleat if the question is did I or
anybody in the agency work in concert with Hr . Channell or
any of his associates to directly raise money vis-a-vis
mmmEB
790
f'O'rsri
KA„E: HX.3S7000 UmAli^lMill'll ''''■ '"
3770 asking contributors for money, falling about speciiic
377 1 donations or anything having to do with the technical aspect
3772 of fund-raising I am saying emphatically no.
3773 . BY HR. FRYHAN:
3774 2 Hhen you say work in concert with Hr . Channell. you
3775 sent this letter to fir. Sacher, which is Exhibit 16, with
3776 Kr . Channell's knowledge that you were sending it, did you
3777 not?
3778 A Yes.
3779 2 And when you write in the second paragraph of that
3780 letter, Kr . Goodman, that you are prepared to put the
3781 program into action and yet without Mr. Sacher's help, you
3782 may never reach first base--
3783 A Yes.
3784 2 Did you not consider that a request for funds?
3785 MR. SCOTT: i object to the form of that question.
3786 HR. FRYHAN: You may answer.
3787 THE HITHESS : I see it as more of a generic
3788 lina--without your help and others like you, our television
3789 and other pzograns would never succeed. But we were never
3790 asked to contact contributors for the purpose of raising
379 1 money. We were never asked to request funding assistance
3792 directly from people that Mr. Channell directed us to
3793 contact.
37914 We were not involved--our intention with all this
Mmsim
J
791
NAHE ■■
3795
3796
3797
3798
3799
3800
3801
3802
3803
38014
3805
3806
3807
3808
3809
3810
381 1
3812
3813
381U
3815
3816
3817
3818
3819
HIR257000
PAGE 155
uas not to be a fund-taiser for the Channell organization.
Our object uas, again, to promote the virtues of our program
and our feelings of its chances for success.
By the same token, the letter to Mrs. Ellen
Garwood, which you have labeled Exhibit No. 27, uas the
result of a telephone call I got from Mr. Channell saying,
''Look, Mrs. Garwood would love to know her efforts have
been worthwhile. Ue are doing advertising in Austin. Send
her a schedule so she can see some of these spots on
television for herself.''
MR. FRYMAN: x asK the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 28 for identification a page dated April
17, 1986, produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency.
(Exhibit Ho. 28 uas marked for identification. ]
BY MR. FRYMAK:
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 28 and I ask you if
you recognize that document?
A I don't recall reading this, but I vaguely recall
what is being alluded to.
2 What is that?
A Just read the nemo. ''Spitz called today, wants
the audio redone on 'Helicopter' and 'Terrorist Influence'
to end with: 'Sponsored by the National Endowment for l.he
Preservation of Liberty.'''
2 Was that a change iron the way it had been?
immm
792
NAME :
3820
3821
3822
3823
382(4
3825
3826
3827
3828
3829
3830
383 1
3832
3833
38314
3835
3836
3837
3838
3839
38140
38141
38142
38143
38>4i4
PAGE 156
HIR257000
A That is, ray assumption?
2 Do you recall hou it had been?
A I don' t .
2 Do you also recall the incident or the matter
apparently referred to in the last part of that memorandum
where it states. ''Under no circumstances do they want 'They
Are Us' to run?''
A Right. They didn't like that spot.
2 So they were just ordering you to stop it?
A Yes .
2 Do you know why they didn't like it?
A Not specifically.
2 Did they ever indicate to you why they didn't like
it?
A They may have > but I don't recall. It wasn't one
of our favorite spots either.
MR. FRYKAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman
Deposition Exhibit 29 for identification a letter dated
Harch 19, 1987 from Allen L. Schwait to J. Curtis Hurge, H-u-
r-g-e; and a second lettax which is headed ''Second Draft,'*
and it is a typewritten letter, unsigned, from Robert
Goodman to Carl Russell Channell dated March 11, 1987.
(Exhibit No. 29 was marked for identification.]
BY HR. FRYMAH:
2 tlr . Goodman. X show you Deposition Exhibit 29 for
793
NAME :
3845
38U6
38U7
38148
38149
3850
385 1
3852
3853
3854
3855
3856
3857
3858
3859
3860
386 1
3862
3863
38614
3865
3866
3867
3863
3869
HIR2S7000 C''I^''jL,nO»*'i* < 3- 1^ PAGE 157
identification and I ask you if you recognize those
documents ?
A I do.
C Am I correct that the second draft, which is the
last two pages of this exhibit, is not the letter referred
to in Mr. Schwait's letter dated March 19 where he says,
•'Mr. Channel! or one of his associates drafted a letter
dated March 11, 1987 for Mr. Robert Goodman's signature,'*
and that you feel it is inaccurate that Mr. Schwait feels it
is inaccurate?
A As I recall, this is a copy of a latter alluded to
in Allen's cover letter that we received from Mr. Channell
and his organization or organizations requesting that ue
sign it.
2 So it is your understanding this was what Mr.
Channell sent you?
A Yes.
e And this is the letter that Mr. Schwait's letter
describes as inaccurate?
A Yes.
fi What is inaccurate about that letter?
A I wish you had given me some advance warning on
that because we made a list of responses to those letters
should we ever need to consult that.
HR. FRYMAH: Let's go off the record.
wuss.'Fe
794
NAME: HIR257000 -a.' l » «*y i- 9 l ^«^ ».i» r < ^ ru- »V PAGE 158
3870 [Discussion off the record.)
387 1 BY FRYMAN: Is there a pending question?
3872 [Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter. 1
3873 MR. SCHHAIT: To the extent you recall.
3874 THE WITNESS: There are all sorts of things in this
3875 letter that we objected to and I want to note for the record
3876 there was some pressure applied to us to sign this thing.
3877 BY MR. FRYMAN:
3878 Q Pressure by whom?
3879 A By Mr . Channell and his associates.
3880 2 How did he apply pressure?
388 1 A He just suggested that we should sign this because
3882 he was feeling--it was our impression he was feeling a lot of
3883 pressure from the press and others and he gave us the
38814 feeling he might make life miserable for us if we refused.
3885 2 Did he indicate how he might make life miserable?
3886 * , I. didn't talk to Mr. Channell about this. Bob
3887 Lipman - did. We reviewed the letter and there were several
3888 things he objected to.
3889 In the second paragraph at the end, it started
3890 talking about how certain ads were funded, placement of the
389 1 first flight of television ads in 1985 depicting the plight
3892 of hicazaguan refugees were paid for by the American
3893 Conservative Trust-State Election Fund. Ue didn't know the
38914 difference between various American Conservative Trust
795
NAME :
389S
3896
3897
3898
3899
3900
390 1
3902
3903
3904
3905
3906
3907
3908
3909
3910
391 1
39 12
3913
39 lU
3915
3916
tieUSSlFlEO
HIR257000 ^« > W«fi.< i^-^*^ » K -•' "^ *» PAGE 159
accounts until 1987 when ue did a thorough review and
started to find out where these checks had come from in term
of the hftadings.
There are a lot of a priori assumptions that they
were trying to have us make here about certain knowledge of
their foundations which we simply did not have and that is
one example. Then they had something on the last paragraph,
all the ads run in specific congressional districts,
designed to get voters to call their Congressmen on
Nicaraguan freedom fightttr aid, were paid for by Sentinel, a
S01(c)(i*) lobbying organization.
Ue had and did not have then and don't have now any
specific knowledge of exactly what the charters are on each
of these organizations .
Mr. Smith came up in January of 1987 and tried to
give me a thumb-nail sketch. He had never seen the
documents tSi chaffers.
I could take a half an hour with this, and pick it
apart, but the bottom line is they were asking us to make
statements which wax« not accurate in reflecting j^vk extent
of our knowledge of the organizations and the program as ue
handled it over the course of our relationship.
796
NAME'
3917
3918
39 19
3920
3921
3922
3923
39214
3925
3926
3927
3928
3929
3930
3931
3932
3933
393U
3935
3936
3937
3938
39i9
3940
39K1
HIR2S7000
RPTS THOMAS
DCHN KOEHLER
ihsjiLFAjiiinLsJ
PAGE 160
BY HR. FRYHAN:
2 Is the next paragraph correct, that reads, quote,
our firm did not participated in the Maryland campaign
activities?
A That is correct.
2 Regarding the senatorial race between Linda Chavez
and Barbara Mikulski?
A That is correct.
2 rir . Schwait's letter indicates that his office will
be contacting Mr. Merge to offer his assistance in drafting
a complete an accurate statement of the facts.
A Yes.
2 Do you know if there was ever such a statement
prepared and delivered to Hr . Merge?
A To my knowledge--to my knowledge we did prepare a
statement delivered to Mr. Merge. Oux intention by the way,
Tom, as long as we didn't want to make life more difficult
for Hr. Channell than it already was, we still have a lot of
respect for his intelligence--we were trying to help in this
sense — trying to find a way if it was possible, to have
something that both organizations, both Ht . Channell and the
Goodman Agency, could verify as accurate.
:iFe
I
797
NAME
3942
39143
39UU
39145
3946
39U7
39148
39U9
3950
3951
3952
3953
395U
3955
3956
3957
3958
3959
3960
3961
3962
3963
396>4
3965
3966
"r-iCLISSIFlEO
T^f
HIR?57uog K ■" 5 ',1 1 J :•; •■1,1. ^18 St Bl PAGE 161
would be helpful for both--but I ara not auare of any
progress that had been made on this front.
2 Mow, Hr . Goodman, you have described today your
activities on behalf of Mr. Channell's organization in
connection with the Kicaraguan issue advocacy campaign. And
you have described advertisements you prepared and placed in
connection with the senatorial campaign involving Tim -Mi lli .
A Yes.
e Vou further indicated that your agency had no role
in the Chavez/MiKulski campaign.
A Yes.
Q Other than the Wirth campaign, did your agency
participate in any political campaigns on behalf of any of
Mr. Channell's organizations?
A Ho .
2 Now, in Exhibit 3, there is a reference to various
ads sponsored by Sentinel entitled. ''Does He Know?''.
'Tack Check", and "Time Check".
A Yes.
2 And then there in Exhibit 7, there is a story board
foz the advertisement. ''Does He Know'', that relates to
Congressman nichael Barnes.
A Yes.
2 Now, is it your understanding that that
advertisement had any relationship to the senatorial primary
WfiSSffl
798
MAKE:
3967
3968
3969
3970
3971
3972
3973
397U
3975
3976
3977
3978
3979
3980
3981
3982
3983
398<4
3985
3986
3987
3988
3989
3990
3991
IINCL«S!F!EB
HIR257000 IllVlai :«USaiil SR II PAGE 162
campaign in which Congiessroan Michael Barnes uas a
candidate?
A Mo.
e What is youz understanding of the purpose of that
advertisement, ''Does He Know?''?
A Congressman Barnes or with everybody?
S Let's focus on Congressman Barnes for the moment.
''Does He Know'* ads relating to Congressman Barnes.
A ''Does He Know*' series relating to all Congressmen
that you see listed on Exhibit 3 uas designed to. as we
understand it. sway Congressional opinion, sway votes,
influence votes, if possible, by influencing public opinion
on a vote that uas coning up in June.
The actual selection of targets was Mr. Channell's.
Why Congressman Barnes, I don't know. You will have to ask
Mr. Channell that.
Q Now. on the Exhibit 3 there is a list of a number
of names in connection with the ''Does He Know'' ad. Am I
correct, am I not. that the advertisement uas run on a
television station with regard to Congressman Barnes?
A Yes, in the Washington market.
fi Did advertisements run on television stations
involving Hz. Hhittley, the next name on Exhibit 3, after
the "Does Ha Know?" ad?
A Yes.
I
I
UNCiiWEO
799
NAHE: HIR2S7000
mm ftCQi
PAGE 163
3992
3993
3994
3995
3996
3997
3998
3999
14000
UOO 1
14002
U003
140014
1400S
14006
4007
U008
4009
U010
140 1 1
140 12
140 13
14014
4015
4016
2 Mr . Jones ?
MR. SCOTT: For the record, I think you should
point out he is referring to Exhibit 8. His answer reflects
the information contained on Exhibit 8.
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you, Jira.
Which I think is complete, Tom, and accurate. I don't
see Jones listed, so he may have not been.
BY MR. FYHAN:
e What about Hr . Whitten?
A Again, I don't see that on the list.
2 Mr. Boner?
A Yes .
2 Mr. Gordon?
A Yes.
2 Mr. Cooper?
A Yes.
2 Mr. Mazzoli?
A Yes.
2 Mr . De La Garza?
A Yes .
2 Mr. Pickle?
A Yes.
2 Mz. He£n«z?
A Yes.
2 And Hr . Bustanante?
800
NAHE :
40 17
4018
40 19
4020
4021
4022
4023
4024
4025
4026
4027
4028
4029
4030
4031
4032
4033
4034
4035
4036
4037
4038
4039
4040
4041
A Yes .
2 And the selection of these individuals in
connection uith this advertisement was done by Mr. Channell
so far as you know?
A Yes.
2 Did you make any suggestions with zespect to--
A No.
2 The markets and the individuals that would be the
subject oi this ad campaign?
A No.
2 Did you have any discussion with Mr. Channell ot
anyone in his organization as to how the Barnes ad would fit
into the overall strategy that they had with respect to
Conaressman Barnes?
w
i
A X don't recall any discussion about that.
2 I have no further questions.
BY HR. OLIVER:
2 I just have a few questions.
A I have a few things I want to put on the record at
the end, if that is appropriate.
MK. SCOTT: Can we take a five-minute break?
MR. OLIVER: Whatever you want to do.
MR. SCOTT: Let's take a break.
( Recess . ]
BY HR. OLIVER:
I
111! s<:';i
\0 a 4.' .--■» ■■'■I- •"-' *«
STi"?-!
f-ff
,_ «.^ .« J - -.
801
NAHE:
U0U2
40143
UOUU
4045
140146
4047
4048
4049
40S0
405 1
40S2
4053
4054
4055
4056
4057
40S8
4059
4060
4061
4062
4063
4064
(4065
4066
HIR2S7000
5 it id
PAGE 165
2 Can we go back on the record?
Mr. Goodman, in Exhibit No. ~, uhich ue discussed
earlier, the fourth paragraph on the story board, there is a
picture of a helicopter. Did I understand that earlier that
IS the Hinds helicopter from the photographs that uere
provided to you by Faun Hall?
A I believe that uas exactly the footage ue received
from Fawn Hall. If not, it uas awfully close to it.
2 Just above that photo is a slide of uhat appears to
be an aerial photograph. Where did you obtain that slide?
A Good question. It wasn't a slide, it uas a
picture, and publication of it caroe from either the State
Department or the Defense Depattraent--supposedly available to
the general public, printed by the Government Printing
Office. And at various points along the uay where ue needed
some pictures, something visual, ue were often told by Mr.
Channell to call, in most cases, Mr. Miller, Richard Miller,
who would have access, or know where to get access to these
kinds of documents.
2 Did he provide you with this photograph?
A This publication from which the photograph came?
2 Yes.
A Hr. Miller —
2 Did it come iron a publication?
A It came from a publication. In fact, I sent copies
?2-710 a88-27
802
ISi
NAME:
U067
U068
U069
U070
U07 1
U072
4073
1407U
U07S
4076
U077
4078
4079
4080
4081
4082
4083
4084
4085
4086
4087
4088
4089
4090
4091
HIR2S7000 mills f^Uyli iiaP-^ PAGE 166
of this publication, diiferent copies, uhen I tried to
support the factual evidence being presented, the very spots
to the station--actually the station, it uas either--in fact,
it uas part of the material we supplied to the committee by
either a State Department or Defense Department publication
and, in that publication, they had a lot of different--
S It uas from a publication provided to you by Mr.
Miller?
A Either Mr. Miller or Mr. Channell, but in most
cases, it uas from Mr. Miller.
2 That is your recollection?
A Yes.
2 At any time did you ever receive as payment for any
of your services traveler's checks?
A No .
2 Did you understand at any time during your working
relationship uith Richard Miller or IBC, if they uere
connected in any way to the Department of State?
A No.
2 Was it ever indicated to you they uere under
contract ox consultants, in any way, to the Department of
State?
A No.
2 Did you ever meet Mr. Robert Kagan?
A I don't recall meeting him or my father.
803
NAME: HIR2S7000 ^ ...,..-..-.- ^ .-. . ^- j>hqz 167
4092 2 Did you ever meet Otto Reich?
U093 A No.
14094 2 Jonathon Miller?
4095 A Not that I recall.
4096 2 John Blacken.
4097 A No.
4098 2 nark Richards?
4099 A I don't recall any.
4100 2 Walt Raymond?
4101 A I don't believe so.
4102 2 Did you ever meet Dave Fischer?
4103 A I don't believe so.
4104 2 Bruce Cameron?
4105 A I don't believe so.
4106 2 Dan Kuykendall?
4107 A Yes.
4108 2 Uhen did you meet Dan Kuykendall?
4109 A Probably met him once or twice. One time I can
4 110 remember was a luncheon meeting at The Honocle, o£ all
4111 places, somatine. X think early to mid-October oi 1986.
4112 Present at the meeting was Spitz Channell and at least two
4113 oi his associates/ and my father, and I--and we talked about
4114 a number of things. ., , - ,
4115 But p - gesMi r tl y . the discussion revolved around the
4116 conception and cnation of the final ad series of that
804
NAHE:
4117
(4 118
4119
U 120
4 12 1
4122
4 123
4 124
4125
4126
4 127
4128
4129
4130
4131
4132
4133
4134
4135
4136
4137
4 138
4139
4140
414 1
HIR2S7000 V-- pj(,f. ,g3
election year ul\ich uas an ad series that, ultimately, led
to the creation of this spot that uas used m the Tim Uirth
campaign .
2 As a result of this meeting, were the spots also
produced that related to Congressman Bryant, Congressman
Coleman?
A Yes, sir, same series.
e Congressman Wright and Senator Cranston?
A Yes, that is correct. Though, at that meeting I
understand, as I recall, there were no real discussions of
absolute targets. If there was, it uas very unspecific.
The meetings were really designed to come up with a creative
concept and approach to the television spots ultimately
developed for that campaign.
e What did Hr . Channell tell you Mr. Kuykendall's
role uas with his organization?
A I can't recall anything specific. ny impression
uas he uas an adviser to Hr . Channell, and I wasn't even
auara if he uas paid or otherwise.
2 Did you evar have any otiier meetings with him?
A KO.
2 Did you ever attend any legislative strategy
meetings at the offices of XBC or PRODEMCA?
A Legislative strategy sessions meaning--
2 Sessions that included a number of people who were
805
NAME
^ m2
M 143
"4 ms
UlUb
U 147
141(48
14 149
(4150
415 1
4152
4153
4154
4155
4156
4157
4 158
4159
4160
4161
4162
4163
•4164
4165
4166
HIR25'000
dm'i
PAGE 169
working uith Mr. Channell to try to influence the Congress
ajid vote on aid to the freedom fighters?
A I think I have described when ue were first
interviewed by you in July, that I can recall at least one.
probably note t4««4 one occasion, where there would be an on-
going meeting. There would be a meeting already in session
where Mr. Channell, Dan Conrad, Richard Miller, Frank Gomez,
typically, and others, were involved, and we would come at
an appointed time.
Sometimes it was held at IBC — sometimes — I think it
happened more than once, and we would walk in on q4ii«- and
Cue.
make a talk about the television and what we wanted to do
with the television. Then we would leave and the meeting
would continue.
2 That would be you and your father?
A My father and I.
2 And you would describe the ads, not just the ads,
without talking about the districts they were running in and
discuss that?
A I don't recall any discussions in those kinds of
meetings about legislative strategy. Certainly, not when ue
were involved. It was really about the creative
approach--what we were going to say in this particular spot,
how we were going to get the v i o inAty for that rnml th at- spot(£;)
{ji/» mi
ght have been contemplating that type of thing.
iifiu.mm
806
Hknz-
4167
4168
4169
4 170
4 17 1
4172
4173
4174
4175
4 176
4177
4178
4179
4180
4181
4182
4183
4184
4185
4186
4187
4188
4 189
4190
4191
■ #*i ft ^ Ol • 5^
HIR257000 U^yVAd^^" - PAGE 170
And also involved in at least one meeting, I can
specifically recall, was a representative of the Edelman
group uho , ue were told, uas doing public relations for Mr.
Channell. And tuo or three times that I can recall, I had a
convt;r sation with their representative, whoever it was. uho
just wanted to know. I think basically, when spots would be
going on the air. I can't recall any time when we were
present in any of those, when legislative strategy, as you
are defining it, was discussed.
2 Did you ever meet Jack Lichenstein?
A No .
2 Did you ever meet Ed Fraser?
A The name sounds familiar, but I can't recall.
2 Were you ever told by Hr . Channell or Mr. Conrad,
or any of their associates, of other activities that were
taking place in Congressional districts, such as grassroots
organizing, direct mail, things that supplemented or would
have supplemented in a political campaign sense, the
television advertising that you were doing?
A It uas our impression that Mr. Miller was heading
up the grassroots, as you call it, grassroots PR lobbying
effort which involved a lot of things. I think, at one
point, we heard about an effort to fly news directors of
local television stations from around the country down to
Nicaragua to actually show then what uas going on down
i
PlhQOtn
mmB
807
NAHE :
4192
4193
4 194
419S
4196
4197
4198
4199
4200
4201
4202
4203
4204
420S
4206
4207
4208
4209
4210
421 1
4212
4213
4214
4215
4216
,1.3=,... UHyLf^^ji;? ItU
PAGE 171
there .
Ue would get that in bits and pieces, just in general
conversation; but I don't ever recall having been shown or
told exactly everything that fir. Miller and his associates
were developing on behalf of Mr. Channell in public
relations grassroots lobbying.
2 Were you aware that you were part of a larger
af f ort--there were a lot of different elenents to this
campaign?
A Absolutely. And going back to that March 1986
letter that ua have already entered into the evidence--was it
March--! am sorry, it was April. The critique letter, where
under the section of tean--f rankly , I was maybe, I think, I
don't know if my father shared this sentiment as much as I
did. We felt we were outsiders looking in, part of a bigger
thing. We felt so ignorant about the totality of Mr.
Channell's organization.
When I say Mr. Channell's organization, I include
Richard Miller and others in that, that we felt slighted or
a little left out of the process. In hindsight. Thank God
we weren't given a chance to run with our feelings and
become more directly involved in the group. But, yes, the
best way to describe the relationship iSiian outsider looking
in,''^small part of a bigger pie, we only knew what the crust
around us looked like.
UNClASSirlEO
808
NAHE :
4217
4218
42 19
4220
422 1
4222
4223
4224
4225
4226
4227
4228
4229
4230
4231
4232
4233
4234
4235
4236
4237
4238
4239
4240
4241
HIR2S
.. m WM
S9?^f; ■-;'"- U;' "i'^-^^ PAGE 172
2 Were you auare that this campaign that Hr . Miller
uas conducting in conjunction with Mr. Channell was
coordinating its efforts with the Uhite House campaign?
A No .
2 Do you know John Roberts?
A No.
2 Do you know Ed Rollins?
A Yes .
2 Do you know who recommended you to the Channell
organization?
A Again, as I think it was one of the first
questions--
2 You indicated who called you first, but I wonder if
you ever found out or ever learned who recommended?
A No. In fact, if there is an overt recomraendation--
2 You indicated a moment ago in the discussion of the
March 19th letter from your attorney to Curtis Herge, that
you were not aware of the different elements of Spitz
Channell's organizations.
1 wonder if I could ask you to look back for a moment
at Exhibit No. 8, which I believe you indicated uas a
document prepared by you?
A Yes.
2 And the the first sentence on the cover page says,
''The paid media chronology of the NEPL, American
809
NAME:
t42U2
1*243
^2^n
U2U5
(42146
142U7
U2148
42149
4250
14251
■4252
4253
4254
4255
4256
4257
4258
4259
4260
4261
M262
4263
4264
4265
4266
HIR2S7000 ynULHU'Ji^' hLI? page 173
Conservative Trust'', and then it says, parenthesis,
''federal and state'', underlined and, ''and state''?
A Yes.
2 Uhich would seem to indicate that you did
understand that there was a difference between the
organizations, is that correct?
A No, it is not correct. It is a good question.
This was prepared on January 10th, 1987. A feu days prior
to that, there was a meeting where Mr. HcMahon, Steve
McHahon, and Cliff Smith came to Baltimore, and they went to
talk, at that point, to our bookkeeper. Colleen Vickers, to
see what our books were saying about what the accounts were
and so on and so forth. And either on that day
specifically, I know on that day j.t was discussed with
Colleen--she is better able to dibcuss this than I--and maybe
even prior to that, they star ted--they meaning Mr.
Channell--and/or members of his organization, started to
enlighten us as to the differences between th«
organizations .
And ua wars told, at the very least no later than that
day, I think it was the 5th or 6th of January, a few days
before it was prepared, that look, you showed no--this is not
ACT, it is ACT federal, state checks, copies of checks which
we keep. And on those checks sometimes they had nothing
other than ACT, sometimes federal, sometimes nothing. We
lINCWSSIflEO
810
NAME :
4267
U269
4270
427 1
U272
4273
4274
4275
4276
4277
4278
4279
4280
4281
4282
4283
4284
4285
4286
4287
4288
4289
4290
4291
KI.257000 yj^y|l.^S-i!jSf i-- •'""
PAGE 174
didn't know, just n»ti from them. Ue had an understanding
from them. There was more than one ACT fund which is uhy I
alluded to federal and state. I got that education.
2 Were you aware at that point there might be a
problem with spending state election PAC funds?
A No, nothing. The charters that govern these
organizations, we weren't sure what the legalities were.
2 But you are aware of the difference between the
Kinds of funds that can be contributed to the state
elections, and the kind of funds that can be contributed to
federal elections? For instance, in Maryland, where--
A No.
2 You are very active, corporate contributions, are
allowed for state elections, they are not allowed for
federal elections.
A Yes.
2 I assume you are aware of that distinctive
difference between federal and state elections?
A I should as a political_;^-^g.ood_ question, it is a
good question as a political professional, as a media
consultant. I should say yes. Unfortunately, I think I
probably speak for my father and Ron Wilner, the answer is
really no, u« know, basically, a corporation can't
contribute to federal candidates and so on. Ue are so
uniTifozned about the dos and don'ts in terms of political
811
NAME ■
4292
4293
4294
4295
4296
4297
4298
4299
4300
430 1
4302
4303
4304
4305
4306
4307
4308
4309
4310
431 1
4312
4313
43 14
4315
4316
HIR257000
mm hm^^^
AGE 175
fundraismg that I would ba ashamed to have to urite out
what little I know about it.
2 Did the terra American Conservative Trust State
Election Fund ever appear in the video or audio credit lines
on the ads?
A Never, because we never had the knowledge that
there was more than one ACT. Ue thought it was all one and
the same .
2 When you seek to purchase time from a television
station, what kind of information are you required to give
them about the sponsor of the ad, if any?
A We are not required to give them any information.
They will often ask, especially when it's a public interest
group. They, I think they mentioned the station
management--certainly their attorneys--are very interested in
at least knowing the basic identity and founding principals
of whatever organization wants to fund this kind of
television advertising on the stations.
1 don't think it's a written rule, but it's certainly
requested nore often than not.
2 Do you have to comply with any federal reporting
regulations of any kind when you place an ad which is an
independent expenditure in a federal campaign?
A Hot that I am aware of. When you do television for
political candidates in political campaigns, there is a form
812
HAME:
4317
U318
43 19
4320
432 1
4322
4323
4324
4325
4326
4327
4328
4329
4330
4331
4332
4333
4334
4335
4336
HIR2S7000 I n-^'*...r»? -■ 'M r9-.?J page 176
you fill out. Ue call it PB-9, now called PB-10, basically,
a disclaimer of iniotmation that says ue ate tepresenting so
and so. Senator so and so, and will be buying his or her
time in the election, at will be held on, give the date, it
is being funded by, and list the name of the committee that
is paying for the spots or spots to come. And that is used
in political campaigns, but independent expenditure, ue
never had to I»t Ijy PB-9. I don't think ue ever had to or
have been following--
e I believe you say it was in December or January
1987, Jeff Keifer from IBC contacted you and asked you for,
X guess, a report on their overall expenditures in 1985 and
1986?
A He uanted a basic repor t/'chronology and, as I
recall, he uas really most interested if not only
interested, in the numbers, meaning the dollars that uere
expended. As I indicated earlier in the testimony, I think
X just listed next to the expenditures on each of the
markets for each flight, the spots that uere actually run m
those markets .
(/NCUJJifi)
813
name: HIR257000 U 1 1 ' jLHd I ll t SJ "" '^^
U337 RPTS STEIN
14338 DCMH DANIELS
U339 ; 5 : 30 p .ra. I
MS^O 2 So if he hadn't made this request, you would never
i»3m have discovered the discrepancies irom 1985, for instance?
4342 A No. Ue started to do a review of our books. That
U343 document that was dated December 22nd already showed us
431414 there were discrepancies that we had to be cognizant of--
4345 Q That was a result of the stories m the newspaper?
4346 A Yes, very much.
4347 fi Did you or your father introduce Frank Gomez at one
4348 of the Hay Adams neetings of contributors after a White
4349 House briefing?
4350 A I don't think so, no.
4351 MR. SCHWAIT: Introduce him to whom?
4352 . MR. OLIVER: I do not have a copy of the document,
4353 but there was a--I will aver to you that there was a copy of
4354 a document produced by another entity that indicated that on
4355 the schedule for what was going to take place at this
■4356 meeting, it has so-and-so opens meeting, so-and-so comes on
4357 and it had Bob Goodman introducing Frank Gomez.
4358 THE WITNESS: I don't think I did. I don't recall
4359 that.
4360 BY HR. OLIVER:
436 1 2 Have you ever heard of an organization or an entity.
*«ssa
814
NAME:
14362
U363
4364
M365
U366
4367
4368
4369
4370
437 1
4372
4373
4374
4375
4376
4377
4378
4379
4380
4381
4382
4383
4384
4385
4386
HIR2S7000 liJlWl.1 i'Sj J"* J •'^^' PAGE 178
called Parkefeld Enterprises?
A No.
2 When you attended these meetings or briefings at
the White House followed by the Hay Adams function, I
believe you said you attended two of those--
A Yes.
2 Did you become aware at chose meetings that the
money that was being asked of theue potential contributors
would be tax deductible?
A I don't recall anything about tax deductibility of
contributions. If it was discussed, I either don't remember
It or it wasn't discussed in the presence of myself or my
father .
2 You sai 
TVNews
OpenLibrary