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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

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100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 




IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 12 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13753 



United States Government Printing OfTice 
Washington : 1989 



r 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 



Appendix B: Volume 12 
Depositions 



Daniel K, Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987. — Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



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IlICUTIVf ASSISTANT DCuTt CHIft COUMSfL 

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ASSOCiATt COUNSILS 



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JOII ' l'S"[B 
RICHANO-O PAllflV 

JO-H iAMOM 
TIMIT A SMIUANlCH 
Timothy g WOODCOCK 



Bnited ^tatts Senate 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECKET MILITARY 
ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorable John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available . 



Sincerely, 



uye 




Warren B. Rudman 
Vice Chairman 




III 



Itl N HAMIITOH tMCHAN* CnAIMMAN 

PANTI ■ fJkSCtlL 'LOMD* Vice CHAHMMAN 

THOMAS S *Ol(» WASHINGTON 

P1TIMW MOO<NO jn NlWJinSfV 

JACK tnOOKS rtXAS 

lOWiS STOKES OHIO 

lis *S«N WISCONSIN 

lOWAKO ^ BOIAND UASSACHUSfTTS 

to jinilins ctonr.iA 

JOHN W MItlOS JK CHIlf COUNStl 

W Nlll ICCLtSTON Of^TT CHIM COUNSIL 

CAStt MIlUK STAW OmECTON 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON. DC 20515 

(202) 225-7902 



OICK CMtN(T WOMINC 
WM S BROOMf'tLO MICHIGAN 
MEN«» J MTOE 'Lk.lNOIS 
JIM COunXR NEW JfRSE* 
BILL McCOllUM ftOllOA 
MICHAEl OlWiNE OHIO 



THOMAS n SMfETON MiNORiTr s'AFt OIRECTOn 

GEORGE VAN ClEWt ChKF MINORITY COUNStl 
RICHARD LEON DEPUTY Chi£( MiNORiTT COUNSEL 



March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U. S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr. Speaker: 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433. IQOth Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified fq^-^felease to the public. 

ly yours. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



V 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courier, New Jersey 

Bill McCollum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Ken- 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence/Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Flynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Ray nor 
Joseph D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard Cullen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V, Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority' 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

III 
Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hebron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Tray lor 
Bobby E. Pope 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courter 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Doman 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 12 



Preface XXI 

George. Clair 1 

Godard, Ronald D 173 

Godson, Roy S 199 

Golden, William 375 

Gomez, Francis D 440 

Goodman, Adam 635 

Gorman, Paul F 821 

Graham, Daniel O 971 

Gregg, Donald P 1045 

Gregorie, Richard D 1147 

Guillen, Adriana 1199 



XIII 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Bamett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady, Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Volume 3 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Carl R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke, George. 

Clarridge, Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin, Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig P. 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC". 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Volume 10 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Rudd). 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn. John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., Jr. 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Leiwant, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IIL 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 15 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Volume 19 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhorne A. 
Mulligan, David R 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., II. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 

Royer, Larry. 

Rudd, Glenn A. 

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney). 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert I 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IIL 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 24 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

Tull, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., IIL 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence — were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 







Stenographic Transcript of 
HEARINGS 
Before the 



lO 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

DEPOSITION OF CLAIR GEORGE 
Friday, April 2i*, 1987 



Partially Declassified/Released on 



l^-li-rj 



under provisions of E.O. 12355 
by N. Menan. National Security Council 



UNCLASSIFIED WJ^ 



Washington. D.C. 




:EPSCi J PE-OP^'NG 



(202) 628-9300 
20 F STREET, N.W. 
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20001 



COB. NO- 



a OF._i-- -COPIE 



82-710 0-88-2 



UN€tftSStF»ED 



1 DEPOSITION OF CLAIR GEORGE 

2 Friday, April 24, 1987 

3 United States Senate 

4 Select Committee on Secret 

5 Military Assistance to Iran 

6 and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

7 Deposition of CLAIR GEORGE, called as a 

8 witness by counsel for the Select Committee, at the 

9 offices of the Select Committee, Room SH-901, Hart Senate 

10 Office Building, Washington, D. C. , commencing at 1:15 

11 p.m. , the witness having been duly sworn by ANNE P. 

12 HOROWITZ, a Notary Public in and for the District of 

13 Columbia, and the testimony being taken down by Stenomask 

14 by ANNE P. HOROWITZ and transcribed under her direction. 
15 



^NCt.%SSWtiF 



tiH€k^Sl£^D 



1 APPEARANCES : 

2 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret 

3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 

4 Opposition: 

5 PAUL BARBADORO, ESQ. 

6 Deputy Chief Counsel 

7 TOM POLGAR 

8 Investigator 

9 On behalf of the House Select Committee to 

10 Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran: 

11 MICHAEL O'NEILL, ESQ. 

12 Associate Counsel 

13 NICHOLAS WEISS, ESQ. 

14 Associate Staff Counsel 

15 On behalf of the witness: 

16 DAVID PEARLINE, ESQ. 

17 PAGE MOFFETT, ESQ. 



I 



UNCLA^I^ISO 



UHOkA^SlllED 



1 






CONTENTS 


2 






EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF 


3 


WITNESS 


SENATE HOUSE 


4 


Clair 


George 




5 




By Mr. 


Barbadoro 4 


6 




By Mr. 


O'Neill 120 


7 




By Mr. 


Barbadoro 122 


8 




By Mr. 


Weiss 128 


9 




By Mr. 


O'Neill 131 


10 




By Mr. 


Barbadoro 144 


11 






EXHIBITS 


12 


GEORGE EXHIBIT NXJMBER FOR IDENTIFICATION 


13 




1 


39 


14 




2 


39 


15 




3 


55 


16 




4 


78 


17 




5 


84 


18 




6 


92 


19 




7 


96 


20 









UNaiASSJFlED 



UNfilASSlEUED 



1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 WHEREUPON, 

3 CLAIR GEORGE, 

4 called as a witness in this proceeding by counsel for the 

5 Senate Select Committee, having been duly sworn by the 

6 Notary Public, was examined and testified as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 

8 SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 

9 BY MR. BARBADORO: 

10 Q Mr. George, when did you first become the DDO? 

11 A On the first of July, 1984, or thereabouts, 

12 early July. 

13 Q Can you describe for a novice what your job 

14 involves? 

15 A I am the Deputy Director of the Central 

16 Intelligence Agency for Operations, which I believe would 

17 best be described in the jargon of the United States as 

18 the chief of the American overseas spy service. 

19 Q How much of your time did you spend on hostage 

20 matters in 1985 and 1986? 

21 A Probably a great deal. 

22 Not only was it an issue of great importance 

23 to our Directorate and our agency, particularly our 

24 Directorate, because of Bill Buckley^ 
25 



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I don't want to say what somebody at the Tower 
Commission said, but I suppose, like my friend^^^Hl had 
been involved in terrorist activities and hostage affairs 
more than most people. 

I would not want to say that I spent an hour a 
day, but I worried a lot about it. 

Q When was Mr. Buckley taken hostage? 

A He was taken hostage, I don't know, in January 
or February, 1984, and I came to the conclusion, I felt 
very strongly and I still believe he probably died in the 
summer of '85. But I think the intelligence was adequate 
to believe that he died in the summer of '85. 

Q When did you first receive intelligence 
information that led you to believe that Mr. Buckley may 
have been killed? 

A It was that summer. 

I think when we, when Benjamin, when Reverend 
Weir was released, it sort of put the icing on the cake. 
There had been a lot of talk of his death, reports here, 
there. 




Now how many people in town knew that, I don't 



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know. But I got the point that I went to either Casey or 
to McFarlane, or somebody. I said look, we've got to 
quit screwing around with whether he's dead or alive. 
We've got to find out. 




To me, that was absolute confirmation. 

Q Did you try to keep up with what the agency 
was doing regarding the hostages once Buckley had been 
taken hostage? 

A Yes. 

I felt, as I've said to other groups, I think 
this Directorate, because of its unique overseas 
responsibilities, plays the lead role, the lead role in 
doing what it can to help, to assist the American 
hostages, be they our Chief of Station or some innocent 
tourist. 




OCtSSirtED 



UHSyiSOTED 




background, yes, I was 



UNetASStFIED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 

'-- TOr--fl C CnCT/C0DCV<0RD 



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So I would think I probably was quite aware of 
most of it. 

Q Who in the DO had day to day responsibility 
for hostage matters? 

Who was in charge, the highest ranking DO 
official that had day to day responsibility for hostage 
matters? 

A W ell, I would say that - we're talking 
strictl^^^^^^^l r'aul . 

Q Uh-huh. 

A I would say the Chief of the Near East 
Division — other than myself. 

Q And in 1984, who would that have been? 

A Well, let's see. ^^^^^^^^|l think came back 
fromP 

Q And who replaced] 

A 

Q When was that? 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H would 
have been in March of 1985. Excuse me, 1986, I'm sorry. 

Q What is the Hostage Location Task Force? 

A The Hostage Locating Task Force, with which I 
was involved with Ollie North and John Poindexter, was an 
outgrowth -- and you guys are going to have to tell me 




W*Ct1tSSlnED 



11 



UNCLASSIFIED 



1 the time, because I really don't know — two years ago, 

2 three years ago — was a decision that thmae was no 

3 single government entity that was responsible for 

4 collecting and collating all the information on the 

5 Beirut hostages and trying to make sense out of it. 

6 DEA would hear from an informant involved in 

7 the drug traffic. 

8 You have to remember that by 1984 — well, I 

9 don't know about 1984, but certainly by 1985, the world 

10 knew the hostages were a major issue to this country, and 

11 everybody was peddling hostage information. Everybody 

12 had a hostage angle. 

13 And our friendly liaison services had hostage 

14 angles, and our enemies had hostage angles. 

15 And so, we decided — and I remember talking 

16 to Ollie and to John and, I'm sure, to Bill Casey, that 

17 we should establish a central, multi-agency group, 

18 meeting somewhere — again, wherever we can find office 

19 space, like today — to put it all together. 

20 And we named a guy called^^^^^^^^^^who at 

21 that time was probably 

22 which has different names, but for our purposes, Paul, to 

23 be the chief of the Hostage Locating Task Force. 

24 And it would meet weekly, would sift through 

25 what was available, and it had a slight operational role, 




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which was that if there weret^ if Immigration and 
Naturalization, DEA, Customs, had some kind of lead, it 
could advise them operationally what w* would possibly 
want them to do. 

Q How does th^b^stagH " li^^ iia£ Ta«Tc "^rce 
interact with the Chief of the Near East Division 
regarding the h^^a^esi 

# AH* We're talk^p bureaucracy. You had the same 
bureaucratic conflict with the Hostage Location Task 
Force a nd NE that you had then begin ning in March, 1986, 
between ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^HaT^^Pjcr^ 

These are very complicated problems in terms 
of boring subject, government bureaucracy, who is in 
charge of what. 

The Hostage LocatJ^^Task Force was -- 
[Pause] 
A The establishment of the Hostage Locatia^Task 
Force in 1984 or 1985, I forget — 1984, I suspect — 
.when it was established, Paul, it was sort of like, 
again, the problems with^^^Band NE. I had to define the 
territory, and I defined the territory for the Hostage 
LocatiSr Task Force as that information and material that 
related specifically to the hostages. 

That cut out a big hunk of NE's turf. But if 
you are going to manage an organization as big as ours, 



(niccftsstf^Eo 



13 



UN(^^SStRED 



11 



1 you're going to have to sort of get them to work together 

2 and get them to agree where their turf is. And that was 

3 a problem then, as it was later a problem with the 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand -- who was 

5 charge of what, when does an agent suddenly stop being a 

6 responsibility of an operating division and become the 

7 responsibility of the staff. 

8 Q Was Charlie Allen ever a member of the Hostage 

9 Locating Task Force? 

10 A Up until establishment °^^^^^^|HH 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 1 remember 

12 I couldn't swear to that. I mean, I didn't 

13 follow the membership weekly. 

14 Q Was^^^^^^the only CIA member? 

15 A No, no. 

16 [Pause] 

17 [Discussion off the record] 

18 A We're talking about the Hostage Locating Task 

19 Force that was established in 1984, to centralize the 

20 government's problems with the Beirut hostages. 

21 I can't — no, there had to be somebody else. 

22 But I'm sorry, Paul, I don't remember who it was. 

23 Q And if there was an operation aimed at 

24 recovering the hostages, who would coordinate the 

25 operation? The NE Division or the Hostage Locating Task 



UN^tS^ED 



14 



JIN€LASSIFf£D 



_ _ _ _ 12 




1 Force? 

2 A Oh, I would not let an operation just 

3 "happen." Ideal management would still be my principle. 

4 We would not allow an "operation" to take place. You're 

5 really going to go out and "operate" without both of 

6 those entities knowing about it. 

7 First of all, NE had the area expertise. Those 

8 are where the stations are. Those are where the bosses 

9 are. 

If you are going^^^^^^^^^^^^^l you 

11 going to have^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l If you're working} 
^^^^^^H^^B you ' ve 

13 So the task force, generally, at that point 

14 was a staff. 

15 Q I want to switch subjects, but, again, talk in 

16 general terms about something. 

17 How much time did you spend in 1984, 1985, 

18 1986, on matters relating to the Contras? 

19 A As Michael O'Neill will swear, starting in 

20 1982, there has probably been no other subject in which 

21 more time and energy was spent, both in this job and in 

22 the job I had before this one and in the job I had before 

23 that one, emotion, concern, controversy, and anything 

24 under the sun, in the last five years at least, than the 

25 Contras. 



UttCtASStFIED 



15 



UNCmSfl^tED 



13 



1 I would be less than honest to say that I must 

2 have spent a hell of a lot of time on the Contras. 

3 Q How frequently would you meet with the Chief 

4 of the LA Division to discuss Contra matters? 

5 A I saw all division chiefs at least once a week 

6 for an hour, a half hour or an hour — Dewey Clarridge, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ was 

8 not the DDO under all of that time. But you'd meet 

9 regularly. 

10 The Contra issue, as a management problem, is 

11 so complicated, not only in the field — who are these 

12 people and what are they doing -- but back in Washington 

13 — who are all of us and what are we all doing, that I 

14 would never think that any guy in my job! 

15 before me and John McMahon as my boss, Bob Gates as my 

16 boss, would really ever manage all the details. But you 

17 would do your best almost — certainly weekly, if not 

18 more often, to try to get the big picture of it. 

19 Q How frequently would you meet with the head of 

20 the Central American Task Force? 

21 A Well, the first head of the Central America — 

22 when I was the ADDO, which is deputy to this job, and, 

23 again, I am not in control of the situation as the ADDO, 

24 so I am showing up to meetings when the DDO calls 

25 meetings, unless he is out of town. I remember meeting 



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quite frequently withi 



the guy who is now 



head of LA. He was head of that task force. And I went 
away. I went off to the Congressional account. 

And I didn't know^^^Wthat well. But I had 
met with ^^^^^^^^1 a lot. I was partly instrumental in 
putting him where he is. 

It was a big decision for us, John McMahon and 
I, particularly in the late summer - early fall, of 1984 
— who's going to run this thing and who's the guy we're 
going to pick? 

I have done my best to be as helpful and as 
cooperative with^^^^Hand the burden he has carried as I 
could be. 

Q When did Dewey Clarridge leave the LA 
Division? 

A Well, let me throw a day out. He left in 
September, 1984. He left soon after I took this job. I 
know that for a fact. 

Q And isn't it true thal;^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hleft 
the CIA around the same time? 

A They left together. 

Q Also around that time,| 
changed, did it not? 

A ^^^^^^^^^^Breplaced — I'm sorry, whomever 





— that summer. 



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iwent to^^^^^^Hthe summer I took this 
job, an assignment that I had not been involved in. But 
I knew o^^^K and ^^Hwent to| 

So that all took place that suminer. 

Also^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H was 
changed around that time. 
A 

I think^^^^Hwent down in 1985 to replace — 
tell me. I mean, I'm sorry. 

MR. POLGAR: 1984 -- June, 1984, more or less. 

THE He took^^^^^^^^Hjob, 

that right, Tom? 

MR. POLGAR: Yes. 

BY MR. BARBADORO (RESUMING) : 

So, between June and September, of 1984 — 

The whole team changed. 

The whole team changed? 

That's right. 

Is that a usual thing in CIA, to change a 
whole team at one time? 

A It is very usual. And when you are running a 
service that is based on overseas service, a very 
complicated local service, responsibilities, you often 
get into a fix — we face it all the time — with the 
ambassador screaming at us, that our chief, our deputy, 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 

Q 



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and the number three guy will all leave. 

This, however, was a total coincidence. 
John McMahon and I decided that Dewey had so 
many problems on the Hill, as Michael will remember, that 
it was critical to get him out of that job. 

We went — John and I talked about it a great 
deal that summer, and John and I went to Casey, and Casey 
agreed, and we brought inl 

We moved Dewey to Europe. We moved^^^^^^^^^^^^^B and 
— la-la-la. 

fsort of left simultaneously, and I don't 
quite know how. 

Q He was removed before his tour was completed? 
A Whc 

Q 

A Okay, you've got me now. 
Q Do you know why he was removed? 
A No, I don't. I'm sorry, I don't. 
I don't know that. 

I know he was gone. I know he was looking for 
a job, and I know that without jny intervent ion, which 
would have helped, he ended 





You, then, were not involved in making a 



decision to replacel 



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I could have been. I can't recall. 

You can't recall that? 

How about the decision to bring inl 



17 




He had had no previous expe rience in Lat in 
America. Why was he chosen to replacel 

A Because in my mind then as now, he was one of 
the most single, competent case office managers and 
directors, and the ability to manage the most complex, 
difficult, controversial program in the directorate was 
more important than the background and knowledge. 

Now you — we'll you'll ask me. Go ahead. 

Q Around the same time that this team was 
changed, there was also a change in the way the CIA could 
function in Central America. That is, the money had run 
out and the CIA was going to be out of the business 
because of Boland. 

A Boland amendment number two, which I am very 
familiar with, because 1 did the Congress, the 
Congressional relationships. 

Q Did the change of team have anything to do 
with the fact that the CIA's role in Central America was 
changing as a result of Boland II? 

A I think it would be better to explain it that 
we perceived that Boland II had taken place partly 



UWCffiSintD 



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U»[C£ffS$m£D 



18 




1 because the team that he run it had not handled it well 

2 on their own. 

3 Yes, they are related, although they are not 

4 sort of cause and effect: we hear Boland II goes into 

5 effect and we, therefore, change. 

6 But the relations with Congress, which were 

7 terribly difficult and painful for both sides, caused us 

8 to sort of say we're going to have some new faces in 

9 here. That may have been part of it with^^^^^^| But I 

10 can't remember 

11 Q When did you first become aware that the 

12 Contras were attempting to obtain aid from third 

13 countries? 

14 A Well, as it became evident to all of us who 

15 followed it — and I followed it very closely at that 

16 point with the Congressional side — that the Congress 

17 was going to vote to stop CIA lethal support, there was 

18 general talk everywhere, by everybody, in the course of 

19 events as to what will happen to them and will they be 

20 able to find support privately. 

21 So, this general idea began to grow at the 

22 time, as Mike remembers. The debate grew hotter and more 

23 heated and more heated as to is the Congress going to cut 

24 off the funds and when it became evident to the White 

25 House — and I was there — to the White House 



(^ettssmED 



21 



UMCLASSKF^D 



19 



1 Legislative Counsel, who was counting votes one by one — 

2 I mean, this was a vote, boy, where every guy stood up 

3 and said exactly where he is. As it looked like they 

4 weren't going to win it, the whole general discussion — 

5 of which I was never part of a specific discussion — was 

6 can they g o some wher^els^t^^^idsupport — rich 
Am e r i c a n s , ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^^^^^^l t h e 

8 Conservative Party, you name it. 

9 Q Was there discussion in the agency about how 

10 they were going to support themselves? 

11 A Oh, I think anybody associated with the 

12 Contras was — I don't remember sitting down with Dewey 

and^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H or even 

14 Bill Casey and saying how are we going to get, how are we 

15 or how are they, but it was, geez, this is an active 

16 military force. It's in the field, operating. 

17 The legislative advisors to the President are 

18 arguing if he is serious about supporting them, that they 

19 will not stop fighting another year for money. This 

2 wasn't one of these votes where, I'm very sorry, but the 

21 abortion vote is over and we can't bring it up again. It 

22 was we will come back and vote again. 

23 It was always as it is today, that the 

24 President will never stop, rightly or wrongly, pushing 

25 for support, military support, through us to the Contras. 



UNCtlKSSmiD 



22 



UNmSSfFfED 



20 



1 So, Boland I, when the argument was to overthrow 

2 the Government of Nicaragua is illegal, and Boland II — 

3 I mean, these are not the technical names. I am using 

4 this as the jargon titles — which was no military 

5 support, and Boland III, which was the most complex of 

6 all, which was you can do this and not that, and that but 

7 not this, and you can supply this but not that. 

8 All through there, the administration position 

9 was we're going to get the agency back into this thing. 

10 It's sort of saying well, how will they continue then if 

11 there is no agency? 

12 Well, they'll go out and get some money. 

13 Q Do you recall anybody in the OGC being asked 

14 to do research on whether anyone in the CIA could solicit 

15 aid for the Contras from third countries? 

16 A I don't. 

17 Q Was there any specific discussion in 1984 in 

18 the agency concerning soliciting third countries for aid? 

19 A It's critical to remember that with each of 

20 these laws, the discussion was intense and detailed as to 

21 what is the CIA allowed to do. 

22 It was certainly detailed with me because I am 

23 the guy, after I became DDO, and even in the other jobs, 

24 who has to worry about the legalities of our positions. 

25 What the hell does the law mean if it says we're not 



imCtffSStFfED 



23 



UNaiASSIIiED 



21 



1 allowed to overthrow the Government of Nicaragua, and 

2 yet, we're down there making war? 

3 How much war do you make before you are not 

4 overthrowing the government? At the point when there is 

5 no more aid, but the White House says we're going to go 

6 back and fight for it again, I'm sure there is a 

7 discussion -- well, if we can't give aid and we have good 

could we go to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B and 

9 ask for money. 

10 Those debates went on continuously, and were 

11 reviewed, and I'm sure probably reviewed by OGC, although 

12 I don't remember specifically. 

13 Q Do you recall specific discussions about 

14 people in the CIA going to third countries to get aid for 

15 the Contras in 1984? 

16 A No. 

17 I remember discussions of were they allowed. 

18 And I think that the decision was made that we were not 

19 allowed. 

20 Q Do you remember who told you that or who made 

21 that decision? 

22 A No. 

23 Q Do you know whether anybody in the CIA did 

24 contact any foreign governments to determine whether 

25 these foreign governments would be interested in giving 



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aid to the Contras in 1984? 

A No. Never. 

Q In October of 1984, you became aware that 
Adolf o Calero had gone^^^^^^^^Ko solicit aid, didn't 
you? 

A I didn't. I mean, I may have known, but I 
don't remember. 

It may have been public knowledge, but I don't 
remember it. 

Q Well, unfortunately, I can't show it to you . 
because the NSC wouldn't let me take it here. But I will 
represent to you that the NSC has a TD that you signed on 
October 12 and two more on October 15, that describe a 
meeting or meetings that Adol fo Caler o had with 

^^^^^^^^:o discuss 
the possibility of receiving aid. 

Does that ring a bell to you? 

A Let me make one thing perfectly clear here. 
I have to tell you what I told the Tower 
Commission and the SSCI guys. 

It's like every State Department telegram says 
"Shultz." Please, just because my name's on it -- 

Q I understand. I understand that. 

A If I signed a TD that said Calero went to look 
for aid^^^^^^^H I 'm sure I signed it. But, so help me 





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god, I don't remember it. 

Q So you have no memory -- 

A I do not remember that incident at all — 
period. 

MR. O'NEILL: Excuse me. Was this a TD or a 
memorandum ot dissemination? 

MR. BARBADORO: It's a TD. 

MR. POLGAR: But it must be a memorandum of 
dissemination. 

THE WITNESS: TD ' s are the electric things, . 
Paul, that don't have anybody's name on them. But, I 
mean, the Tower Commission suddenly whipped something in 
front of me and said did you sign this, and I'm sorry, 
I'm not showing off, but I said oh, god, I don't know. 
BY MR. BARBADORO [RESUMING]: 
Q Let me ask you about something related to 
that. 

Do you have any recollection of a solicitation that 
General Singlaub made in January of 1985 to 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bf o r 
Contras? 

A There has rec_en tly been a ser ies of cabl es 

f r om ^^^^^^I^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B^ ^ 
which he categorically stated that the accusations made 
by Christ knows whom, that he had helped Singlaub solicit 



UN€Lft^F!iD 



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funds from^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^His untrue. And it's 
possible that he said in that that he, that everybody 
knew Singlaub was there and what Singlaub was doing 
there. And he reported that at the time, and asked for 
our advice. 

Please allow me to check the record, but I am 
close to this. 

He asked for our advice. 




we went back with a cracker 
saying you stay away from this. 

You see, the day that Boland II passed, which 
was effective, I think, Michael, the first of October, 
1984 — 

MR. O'NEILL: Right. 

THE WITNESS: We sent out, I mean, I had been 
in Congressional Relations. 

is concerned as hell. We sent out a message that s« 
boy, if you see anybody coming around, looking for funds 
for the Contras, head for the hills. 

BY MR. BARBADORO: [RESUMING] 
Q So you would have told anybody in the CIA that 
was contacted about soliciting funding for the Contras, 
your message was you can't do it, don't participate in 



lis new. John McMahon 

a.\ck 



imCttSStffi£D 



27 



UWet^SfFJED 



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1 it? 

2 A That's my message. That's my message, as far 

3 as I remember it. 

4 Q Do you recall communicating to Colonel North 

5 in liate January - early February of 1985, the fact that 

gone to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f to 

7 solicit assistance for the Contras? 

8 A Me? 

9 Q Yes. 

10 A To Ollie? I could have. I don't remember. 

11 I mean, I talked to Ollie all the time. So I 

12 may have told him that. 

13 I can't say I did. I can't say I didn't. 

14 Q When did you meet Oliver North? 

15 A Probably 1983, at the Congressional job. He 

16 was attending meetings. It was sort of hi, there, how 

17 are you. 

18 Q And when did you start having frequent contact 

19 with him? 

20 A Probably soon after I became the DDO, because 

21 it soon became evident that Oliver North had been charged 

22 by the administration to seek private funding for the 

23 Contras. And out of that grew the most complex foreign 

24 policy I have ever beheld, and that wasn't a two-track 

25 policy. It was a three-track policy. 



UNCtDSSfFFED 



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mtftSSfFtED 



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1 You've got the State Department conducting 

2 normal diplomatic relations — abnormal-normal diplomatic 

3 relations — with Shultz flying to Managua. You have the 

4 series of Motley, and before him, Enders, and assistant 

5 secretaries making secret contacts. You have the whole 

6 diplomatic world. 

7 Then you had had off and on the Central 

8 Intelligence Agency involved with the military side, now 

9 cut out of the military side 
10 

11 

12 

13 Now you have the United States Government 

14 supporting private funding of the Contras. 

15 So, North becomes a very critical player here, 

16 only because North is tripping all over us, or we over 

17 him, in Central America, in addition to which if you 

18 wanted to deal with hostages, you dealt with North, if 

19 you want to deal with terrorism, you dealt with North, if 

20 you want to deal with something else — et cetera. 

21 So, I had relations, not personal at all, but 

22 on the phone — what's this, what's that. It started 

23 quite intensely. 

24 Q How frequently would you talk to him on the 

25 phone once you became DDO? 



imOT^SIFlfEO 



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1 A Oh, I would say when he was in town or I was 

2 in town, we probably talked on the phone once a week, 

3 twice a week. 

4 Q How frequently did you meet with him? 

5 A Meetings? I never met alone with him. If 

6 there would be a meeting -- I mean, god, he was at every 

7 meeting ever held in the Situation Room. What the 

8 subject was, there was Oliver North. 

9 I met with him on many -- not many, but 

10 several -- occasions at the agency on both this and the 

11 Iranian issue. 

12 Q And you don't recall ever meeting with him 

13 alone? 

14 A Oh, I'm sure I met with him alone. But, I 

15 mean, most of the meetings that I had with him were in 

16 groups. I'm sure I'd sat alone with Ollie. 

17 I've been in Ollie's office in the Old 

18 Executive Office Building with him alone. But I don't 

19 remember a pattern of meetings alone. 

20 Q You understood Ollie was involved in private 

21 fund raising for the Contras? 

22 A Uh-huh. 

23 Q What did you understand his involvement to be? 

24 A That he was raising money from private sources 

25 to give to the Contras. 



gJOP SECRET/CODEWORD 

UNCUSSIFJED 



30 



UNCIsl^Sll^O 



28 



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Q Did you understand that he was soliciting 
money from third countries for the Contras? 

A Not really — well — most of the time, 
throughout that affair, Paul, I felt, till the end, that, 
whereas there was solicitation — you'd hear about 
Singlaub, we'd be travelling or something. But I felt 
most of the money was coming from, I thought right till, 
I still do, except I guess it isn't true, was coming from 
private Americans, wealthy private Americans. 

Q But did you know that Ollie was specifically 
contacting third governments or having other people 
contact third governments? 

A Oh, god, he was in touch with very third 
government. I mean, Ollie would fly to Central America 
and he would go down with Bud, or he would go with 
somebody and meet the] 




I don't remember. Ollie travelled. Ollie 
would be in Europe, Ollie would be here. 

Q But do you remember having any, contacting any 

A I do not specifically remember him contacting 
a third country to seek money, no. 

Q Did you know that in 1985, that General 
Singlaub was working for Ollie on certain matters 



UNCfLWiFiED 



31 



(^N§L^S^FIED 



29 



1 regarding the Contras? 

2 A No. 

3 Q I want to get back to this General Singlaub 

f rom^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^fk and 

5 read you something to see if it refreshes your memory. 

6 It's from a February 6, 1985 memorandum, from Oliver 

7 North to Robert McFarlane. 

8 Our reference is it begins N-7013. 

9 A What's the date again? 

10 Q The date is February 6, 1985. The part that 

11 concerns you I will read to you. 

12 A Please. 

13 Q The sentence begins, "Regarding the first 

14 matter, as a consequence of General Singlaub 's recent 
trip^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hf h a V e 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^that they to 

17 help in a 'big way. ' Clair George has withheld the 

18 dissemination of these offers and contacted me privately 

19 to assure that they will not become common knowledge." 

20 Do you recall doing what Ollie says you did 

21 here? 

22 A No, I don't. I would find it most remarkable 

23 if I did, but I don't. 

24 Q Do you deny that you contacted Ollie 

25 concerning General Singlaub? 



UffeCMlED 



32 



llN€Lft$StP9fD 



30 



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2 

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8 

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10 

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14 

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A I cannot remember that. I mean, I would be 
shocked and I would forget that if I had done it. 
No, I don't remember that. 
Tell me that one more time — that I knew? 
Q I'll read it to you again. 

"Regarding the first matter, as a consequence 
of Gen eral Singlaub's r ecent trip" — that is, a trip to 

solicit aid for the Contras — 
[have indicated^^H 
rthat they want to help 
in a 'big way. ' Clair George has withheld the 
dissemination of these offers and contacted me privately 
to assure that they will not become common knowledge." 
A I can't believe that. 

I mean, if that means what it says, that the 

^Itold^^^^^^^^l — is that the 
way you interpret it? 

Q That's right,! 
A I don't believe that. I mean, I couldn't. It 
would be impossible. 

We ask^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^B 
believe that. 

No, I don't recall that. 
Q Let's take this apart, then. 





Can you recall then — 



33 



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UN0LftSSlPEO 



31 



MR. PEARLINE: Paul, would it be possible to 
show it to him? 

MR. BARBADORO: I would be happy to show it to 
him. I've read it to him twice. 

BY MR. BARBADORO [RESUMING]: 
Q I'll represent to you that the only part of 
the memo that concerns you is that one paragraph. But 
you're welcome to lock at it. 
[Pause] 

MR. POLGAR: Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
MR. BARBADORO: Back on the record. 
THE WITNESS: Are we back on the record? 
BY MR. BARBADORO: [RESUMING]: 
Q Yes. 
A We are back on the record. 

No, it makes no sense to me at all. 
Q Let me take it apart and talk about the parts 
of it. 

To your knowledge, did your CIA 

Fever receive 
inforroation that General Singlaub had approached 





and requested aid for the Contras? 



I think 




may have known that. And 



umraFfED 



34 



1 

2 

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8 

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12 

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UN€kftSS4I^l^I) 



32 



that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hreported that. 
Q What is the basis for your conclusion that 
they may have done that? 

A Memory. It is either a matter of record, or 
they didn't. 

I mean, th ey cabled in and said Singlaub is 

fand Singlaub is seeking 
money for the Contras. And if we did what we should have 
done, we cabled back and said have nothing to do with 
him, it's his business, it's 







Q Ordinarily, what would you do with that 
information once you received it, other than to kick it 
back? 

A Probably nothing. 

I probably would not disseminate. I mean, if 
a cable from||^^^^^^^^^^^^^|^^H and 
that General Singlaub was^^^^^^^fand he had heard! 

Ithat Singlaub was seeking private 
assistance to the Contras, I would probably not dissem 
it. 

Now, that means I would not make it an 
official intelligence dissemination. I might share it 
with Casey, I might share it with the National Security 




Council. 



UWCtffSSIFTED 



35 



UNCLASmiED 



33 



1 Q Do you have any recollection of sharing it 

2 with Ollie North? 

3 A No, I don't. 

4 Q Is there any reason why you would give the 

5 information to Ollie North and withhold dissemination of 

6 the offers so that they would not become common 

7 knowledge? 

8 A Well, I would assume that if Singlaub was out 

9 seeking private funds for the Contras, he was seeking 

10 them on behalf of the National Security Council. 

11 Q Why would you assume that? 

12 A Because the National Security Council and 

13 Ollie North, we have already said, has been given the 

14 responsibility of seeking private funds for the Contras. 

15 Q So, if you would have done what it said in 

16 here, you would have done it because you would have 

17 assumed that Singlaub was acting on behalf of Ollie 

18 North? 

19 A Probably. 

20 Q So that we are clear, you don't have the 

21 recollection of — 

22 A Of that incident. But it's not a world I've 

23 never heard of. 

24 Q To your knowledge, didj 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■ever 




UNCLASSIFBEO 



36 



1 

2 

3 

4 
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6 

7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
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14 
15 
16 
17 
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19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UAf€t/ltSIF^O 



34 



to the Contras? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Did your knowledge, did they ever give money 
to Ollie North or anybody working with Ollie North 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q ^^^^^^^^^^^^^B^lhas said that he was asked 
to give a briefing! 

'about the status of the Contras in 1984. 
From whom would he have gotten that 
instruction, to give that kind of briefing? 

A Gee, I don't know, Paul. 






Q No. This was while he was head of the Central 
American Task Force. 

A I don't know. 

You could ask him. 
Q Do you have any recollection of giving such an 
instruction to 

A I do not. 

I might have, but I do not. 
I would not be opposed to asking the chi ef of 
our Central American Task Force to brief 

on the status of Central America, 
the Contras, the Sandinistas. 




(/WCiraFlED 



37 



1 

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t^Net^SSfFIEO 



35 





We were briefing people at all times. But I 
don't rem ember. I may have, but I do not remember giving 
that^^^^ 

Q Are you aware of any attempt by any United 
States Government official to solicit aid fron 
[for the Contras? 
A No. 

^^^P^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Vbut I 
didn't know about itT^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^W— 
Q Do you know whether Director Casey ever 

anybody in^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hto 
request aid for the Contras. 

A There was a rumor — I don't know that. I 
would find that very unlikely. 

I might say here that it was my impression 
throughout this affair that Director Casey was fully 
aware of the restrictions on — as he treated me, he was 
fully aware of the restrictions on the agency. I would 
be very surprised if William Casey made a direct approach 
to any foreign government, because he realized the 
complexity of the legal situation. 




WeLASSfFlED 



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UN6k#$SfffED 



36 




I am familiar with his tripsl 
and we had our guys with Bill Casey almost 24 hours a 
day, and he didn't do that. 

You know, this is a personal opinion, but I 
would be shocked if Bill Casey were out soliciting. But 
I can't say he didn't. 

Q Are you aware of a trip that Dewey Clarridge 
made to^^^^^^^^^^lin 
A Yes, I am. 

Q Wasn't one of the things he did when he was in 
Ito discuss the Contra situation withi 





Q Did they talk to you about the possibility of 
giving aid to the Contras? 

A I do not remember that. 

Q Was Mr. Clarridge given the assignment to go 
to^^^^^^^^^Bto discuss the possibility of obtaining 
aid for the Contras? 

A Not by me, and not to my knowledge. 

Q And do you know whether he asked for 



CODEWORD 



■ rtftf^tCRET/CODEWOl 



B 



39 



UN£LA$${|;jED 



37 



1 assistance for the Contras when^^^^^^^^^Hthere? 

2 A I can't believe he did because the meetings he 

he with^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H and 

4 would have heard about it. 

5 Q When do you first recall hearing General 

6 Secord's name? 

7 A I met Secord — I didn't tell the SSCI. 

8 Secord was in the room on Saturday, the -- 

9 Q Eighteenth of January? 

10 A Eighteenth of January. 

11 Q Was that the first and only time you've met 

12 him? 

13 A And only time I met him. So I had not heard 

14 about him. 

15 Q Had you ever talked to him prior to that date? 

16 A Never — never again. 

17 I was introduced as, "General Secord, this is 

18 Clair George. General Secord is a consultant to the 

19 -National Security Council." I said whoopie. 

20 Q General Secord's name and his association with 

21 Edwin Wilson and that group is now well known. 

22 A Uh-huh. 

23 Q Prior to the publication of the Iran arms 

24 deal, did you know that Secord was associated with Wilson 

25 in any way? 



ONCEirSSllltO 



40 



UN^/rSSTRED 



38 



1 A Yes. I knew it, from the Inspectors General 

2 at the agency and gossip in the halls. And then I knew 

3 it from not Maas ' s book but the first Wilson book, the 

4 name of which — I knew Secord. 

5 MR. POLGAR: "Death Merchant." 

6 THE WITNESS: "Death Merchant." And I knew 

7 Secord was part of that. 

8 To answer a question that has not been asked, 

9 I brought all of this to Bill Casey's attention and so 

10 did Stanley Sporkin, and so did John McMahon, and that 

11 was that. 

12 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

13 Q I want to get into that. 

14 It's fair to say you were concerned about this 

15 Iran arms initiative for several reasons. One of them 

16 was the involvement of Secord, isn't that right? 

17 A That's right. 

18 Q I want to get into that a little bit. 

19 A I want to make it clear on behalf of Mr. 

20 Secord that I was not holding any information that he was 

21 legally guilty of something. It was just a name that had 

22 been associated with problems for the Central 

23 Intelligence Agency. 

24 Q I want to talk about something a little bit 

25 earlier, and that was the information that was obtained 

[OP SECRET/CODEWORD 



TOP SECRET/CODEWORD 

UI^CLASSIF!ED 



41 



UNdtftSStFSED 



39 



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2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



by the CIA in March of 1985, that General Secord was 
involved in a purchase of arms for the Contras from 






Do you recall getting information in March 
that General Secord was involved in obtaining weapons for 
the Contras from! 

A Paul, we had several reports of Secord^ and 
Singlaub free-booting it around the world, and I'll be 
damned if I can remember that. 

I think on one of them, there was a lot of 
reporting. It may have been! 

:hat he wanted things shipped and he didn't want 
them shipped, and he got them, or he didn't get them. 
I'll show you some cables. 
Q Please 

MR. BARBADORO: I'd like to mark as George 
Exhibit 1 the cable dated 5 March, 1985, 

^1^ [The document referred to was 
marked George Exhibit No. 1, 
for identification.] 
MR. BARBADORO: And as George Exhibit 2, a 
memorandum for Assistant to the President for National 
Security Affairs, not dated, signed by Clair George. 

[The document referred to was 
marked George Exhibit No. 2, 



U1fCLAS!^IFID 



42 



UNa^SStRED 



40 



1 for identification.] 

2 THE WITNESS: Question: do we know if I 

cm 

3 really signed it? I mean, my name is all of them. 

4 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

5 Q I understand. 

6 A You don't know? 

7 Q As far as I know, that was obtained from the 

8 CIA. I believe it ' s a copy of what actually went to the 

9 Assistant to the President. 

10 A All of those have my name typed at the bottom, 

11 and some I signed and some I didn't. I don't remember. 

12 Q I think this is — and we are speaking now of 

13 George Exhibit No. 2 — that this is a CIA copy of a 

14 memorandum that went over to the Assistant for National 

15 Security Affairs. f 

16 A I do not recall either of these documents. 

17 Let me retract that. 

18 I do remember something about 

19 .But I don't remember that one. And I don't remember what 

20 I remember. 

21 Q Mr. George, isn't it true that one of your 

22 interests in 1985 was how the Contras were obtaining 

23 arms? 

24 A One of my interests? What do you mean? 

25 Q Isn't that one of the things that you were 




UNCimWED 



43 



10 



41 



UlfCLftSSIFtED 

1 concerned with in your job as Deputy Director for 

2 Operations? 

3 A Well, I don't think that quite states it 

4 fairly. 

5 Q Well, I don't want to put words in your mouth. 

6 A There is a great debate whether we had any 

7 interest in that subject. 

8 The accusation is generally why did you not 

9 investigate that subject more closely in 1985. 

To answer your question, did I, Clair George,. 

11 have great personal interest in how they were getting 

12 their arms, yes. I was sort of like everybody else in 

13 town — how the hell were they getting their arms? 

14 Did I, Clair George, Deputy Director of 

15 Operations, consider it to be a critical intelligence 

16 collection activity? The answer was no. 

17 Q Wouldn't it be important to you to know that 

18 the Contras were receiving SA-7 missiles? 

19 A Yes. And I think we had — in fact, I know 

2 from^^^^^^^^^^B-- that we had a pretty good picture of 

21 what the arms were, of what they were receiving. But I 

22 would not want to say that it was a very big, important 

23 issue on my plate. 

24 Q Having looked at George Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2, 

25 do you recall whether you knew in March of 1985 that 



^HcmsMo 



44 



UHCmtfO 



42 



1 General Secord was involved in purchasing SA-7 missiles 

2 and other weapons for the Contras? 

3 A I can't remember that, Paul. 

4 I mean, I knew, again — it's very important - 

5 - I knew the White House, through Oliver North — and I 

6 have already met at this point Secord, so I know he's in 

7 this game — are out in the arms business. 

8 Q This is 1985. 

9 A This is 1985? Oh, I'm sorry. 

10 Q It's 1985. You wouldn't have met them until 

11 1986. 

12 A Oh, I'm sorry. 

13 I knew Oliver North was out in the arms business, 

14 and I must have assumed, and I would certainly not have 

15 been surprised that Secord may be assisting him. 

16 I certainly knew and would not have been 

17 surprised that Singlaub was assisting him because the 

18 game was for the White House to get private support for 

19 the Contras. 

20 Q In 1985, you knew Oliver North was involved in 

21 raising money for the Contras, you thought primarily from 

22 private Americans. 

23 A Uh-huh. 

24 Q Did you also know around that time that North 

25 was playing a role in obtaining weapons for the Contras? 



UNeiftSSinED 



45 



UMCLASSIf^D 



43 




1 A Well, the way it works is you get the money. 

2 Now if you work under the theory that we now know isn't 

3 the way it really worked, rich private Americans give you 

4 a lot of money. Now you can't go buy weapons in the 

5 United states, for a variety of discrete security and 

6 good taste and legal reasons, so you go abroad and work 

7 the international arms market ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| 
8 
9 So if Oliver North were to have got a lot of 

10 money — and it was assumed he was getting some because 

11 the arms were going to the contras and somebody was 

12 paying for it — we assume that Oliver North is using 

13 someone to work the international arms market. We now 

14 know that's all true. 

15 Q Did North ever say anything to you about that? 

16 A North never discussed that with me. 

17 Q And you never asked him about it? 

18 A No, I didn't ask him about it. 

19 Q What I'm getting at here is I'm trying to 

20 determine when you first knew that Secord was involved in 

21 supplying the contras. 

22 A To answer that fairly, I must have known then, 

23 if I read that cable, and I would have, I think, Paul, to 

24 be as honest as I can be, that if I would have read a 

25 cable that Dick Secord was overseas buying a lot of arms 



UNMSWfED 



46 



UNCitSStHED 



44 



1 for the contras that I would have probably assumed at the 

2 time that that was part of the deal. 

3 Q When did you know that Secord and North were 

4 "associated together in their efforts on behalf of the 

5 contras? 

6 A Well, my mind is so riveted on the day when I 

7 saw them both standing there together that I might have 

8 to say if there was ever any question, that was the day, 

9 in the White House situation room. 

10 Q When did you learn that Secord was associated 

11 with the private benefactor, what's been called the 

12 private benefactor resupply effort in the spring of '86? 

13 A Geez. I don't know. I suppose I found out 

14 when it sort of became public. 

15 Q Which was? I mean not until after November of 

16 '86? 

17 A November, October. I may — well, let's not — 

18 I could say ask^^^^H Maybe he knew. He was down there 

19 somewhere. Everybody — Secord, Singlaub, they are here, 

20 they are there. You don't need a Ph.D. to figure out 

21 that they are using money to go buy arms, we think. 

22 Q When did you first hear the term "private 

23 benefactors" 

24 A Probably in the spring of '86. I never heard 

25 it quite so — you know, they were people up to then. To 



UIICLASSIFIED 



47 




1 get your own titll 

2 '86. 

3 (Laughter.) 

4 Q Who did you understand these people to be? 

5 A Well, I sort of understood them to be more of 

6 the crowd that was increasingly successful gathering arms 

7 on behalf of the White House for the contras. 

8 Q Did you know any names? 

9 A Hasenfus I found out later was one of them; 

10 Felix Rodriguez. I mean, Paul, I don't dig down into 

11 that thing that deeply. 

12 Q Let me ask you the question directly. Did you 

13 know that Oliver North was working with these people who 

14 had been called the private benefactors? 

15 A I assumed it all along, absolutely. 

16 Q And did you ever receive any direct evidence 

17 that he was? 

18 A No, because this is a very important point for 

19 which Michael has heard the arguments, the Agency can be 

20 criticized. We were so concerned that we were enjoined 

21 by the law of 1 October 1984 from giving any support to 

22 the contras that the subject was so emotional and 

23 controversial that we went out of our way and tried not 

24 to learn what was going on. 

25 We also have — and I have said this to a 



oifctrarfED 



48 



UNCkASSKlED 



46 



1 variety of people in various testimonies — you've got to 

2 remember that you can't take your spy agency and beat it 

3 around the ears for a decade to stay away from Americans, 

4 don't report on them, don't do this, don't do that — if 

5 you see one coming, go somewhere else — and then jump 

6 all over us because we are not reporting on Americans. 

7 That's not a totally fair argument, but within some 

8 emotional degree it's not that bad. 

9 MR. MOFFETT: Clair, do you need a break right 
10 now? Would you like to take a couple of minutes? 

H MR. BARBADORO: Let's take a little break. 

12 (A brief recess was taken.) 

13 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

14 Q Mr. George, a couple more questions about 

15 George Exhibits 1 and 2 . On George Exhibit 1 there are 

16 some cryptonyms at the top. Can you just tell me what 

17 those are? 

18 A Well,^^^^lmeans that it's more secret than 

19 most things, and I have no idea in the world what any of 

20 the others are. 

21 (Laughter.) 

22 Tom's an old expert. Tom, if you know, you'll 

23 have to come back to work. 

24 MR. POLGAR: Well, I wouldn't do that. 

25 (Laughter.) 



UNCLASSIFSED 



49 



1 

2 
3 
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11 
12 
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14 
15 
16 
17 
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19 
20 
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25 



UN€LJ^l£^D 



47 



THE WITNESS: Just because we have cryptonyms 
doesn't mean we know what they mean, Paul. 

MR. POLGAR: The first one means that it's 
business of the Directorate of Operations. 

THE WITNESS: ^^^^Hl You are worse than 
that. I knew that. 

MR. POLGAR: The ^^^^^^^| means I 

[somehow, because it comes from 




THE WITNESS: It is a^ 

They have a whole series of 

cryps. 

MR. POLGAR: The other three I would take to 
mean refer somehow to the project, operation cryptonyms. 
They all start with^^^^^^kVou should know what^^His 
for. 

THE WITNESS: That is what you lawyers are 
there for. 

MR. POLGAR: Is that ^^^^^^^^^^| now? 

MR. PEARLINE: 

MR. POLGAR: Yes,] 

THE WITNESS: That is the last time Paul is 
going to ask that question. 

MR. POLGAR: They are distributional 





indications. 



(JN€LASSfFIfD 



50 



UH€Li^^^^^^ 




48 

1 MR. PEARLINE: Maybe it 's^^^^^^^^^ 

2 (Laughter.) 

3 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

4 - Q I will drop that line of questioning. Let me 

5 ask you about George Exhibit 2. I have been told that 

6 it's unusual that this kind of memorandum would be sent 

7 only to one person. This one is sent to the Advisor for 

8 National Security Affairs. Do you know why that would 

9 have been sent to only one person? 

10 A I would suspect — let's see. What is the 

11 date here? What did we say the date is? 

12 Q It refers to this cable in March of '85. 

13 A I would suppose this was sent privately to Bud 

14 McFarlane because we presumed Bud McFarlane in the 

15 National Security Council may be involved in it. 

16 Q Okay. Just so we are clear, tell me the basis 

17 for that assumption. 

18 A The National Security Council has — I was not 

19 there, but everybody above GS-10 knows the National 

20 Security Council has been charged with seeking private 

21 support for the contras. This is no secret. The CIA 

22 runs across a piece of intelligence that says somebody 

2 3 somewhere is buying arms on behalf of somebody from the 

24 contras. 

25 Now what does CIA do when it has intelligence 



UlfCtASSIFffD 



51 



UHCUSSIfJED 



49 



1 that specifically refers to something? We have 

2 information that the President of a country dislikes 

3 George Shultr, so we will send it to George Shultz, eyes 

4 only. If we find out that the Chairman of the Joint 

5 Chiefs has made an ass of himself on his trip to France, 

6 we'll send it to him only. 

7 I presume, Paul, we sent it to Bud McFarlane 

8 because someone presumed that he would be the guy that 

9 knew something about it. 

10 Q All right. How did you think the southern 

11 front military commanders were going to survive during 

12 the period of Boland II? 

13 A I honestly can't answer that. I mean, I don't 

14 know. I don't know what you mean, I guess. 

15 Q The reason I ask is I sat through a deposition 

16 witn^^^^^^^^^^^fand watched a 20-year CIA agent break 

17 down ^^^^^^Hwhenhe discussed the condition of the 

18 southern front. It was obvious to me that he felt a 

19 .great deal of responsibility for those southern front 
2 commanders. 

21 A Absolutely. 

22 Q They were in the field. They weren't being 

23 supplied. They were getting sick. They were going 

2 4 without food. They were going without weapons. What I 

2 5 want to know is what did you think was going to happen to 



ui«;i/rss!r?iD 



52 



UHOLASSiFoSED 



50 



1 these people that the CIA played a role in sending out 

2 into the field? 

3 A Well, let's be very honest now with each 

4 other. The Congress had cut off the support. 

5 Q I'm not blaming. I don't mean to blame the 

6 CIA. 

7 A I've been through this thing now for a long, 

8 long time. I wish them well, Paul. It's a very 

9 complicated life here in Washington. It's going to 

10 happen again. We're going to get about^^^H|Hin there 

11 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and then we're going to cut off the aid 

12 again. There's going to be another^^^^^^^^^^^H There 

13 are going to be people in tears. But I'm not here to 

14 give a lecture on foreign affairs. We've got to get it 

15 straight. 

16 We can't get in these things i 

17 ^^^^^^^1 ^^ have done it in Nicaragua. And I'm not even 

18 arguing it was the right thing to do at that stage. 

19 That's ever man's political position. But I have been at 

20 this a long time, and if there's a criticism of this 

21 country that should be leveled at it in the world of 

22 foreign affairs, it's that you can't count on us. 

23 And there's a good argument. Michael knows 

24 better than I that we probably shouldn't get into the 

25 goddam things even if they are wrong. Of course, I 



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1 worry. I worry about the people and I can understand 

2 full well. 

3 What did Clair George think? Clair George 

4 thought holy God, here we are again. Another mess. 

5 Q But you knew that there was nothing you could 

6 do unless Congress was willing to vote more aid? 

7 A See, coming out of a Congressional job gave me 

8 a different approach than many of the guys in the 

9 Directorate in that I appreciated the dynamics of the 

10 Congress. I appreciated the opposition in the Congress 

11 and I appreciated the arguments against it. But this was 

12 the law of the land. This was what the Congress of the 

13 United States had decided. 

14 The Central Intelligence Agency was out of it. 

15 Now I wasn ' t^^^^fyou know. ^^^H — God bless^^^H-- was 

16 down there. These are people he knows and lives that he 

17 cares about personally. I am cut out of it a bit. I am 

18 farther away. But I know what you are saying. But I, 

19 Clair George, said that's the price of an ongoing 

20 democracy. 

21 Q Did you know in the period of March through 

22 September of 1986 that^^^H^^^^Vwas providing flight 

23 vector information and intelligence information to the 

24 southern front forces in connection with lethal resupply 

25 drones? 



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A No. 

Q Did you read the^^Hcable traffic to the 
Central American Task Force froinl 

A Paul, you know, we^^^^^^^^H cables a month. 
I may have read some; I may not have read some. My 
memories of the issue were that as the "private 
benefactors", who we've already agreed by now have a 
title, which means they are getting to be a big show, as 
the private benefactors went roaring down there, 
particularly in what struck me on the wings of NHAO, 
which was your famed Nicaraguan — 

MR. PEARLINE: Humanitarian Assistance. 
THE WITNESS: Humanitarian assistance program, 
it went from some sort of people trying to buy arms and 
shipping them to a big-time operation. We ran more and 
more head-on into the private benefactors and ini 

[countries down there, in varying degrees, we had 

■that were sort of saying, geez, here are these 
guys,^particulai 





was sort of saying, goddam it, what the hell's 
going on here, and we're giving them this dumb CIA answer 
it's none of our business. 

We don't want anything to do with it. Stay 



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away from them. Don't get near them. This was the 
problem poo^^^^^^^^^^^B oi^^^^^^^^^^^^Hin 
I^^^^^^^^Bsome pooi^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hguy 
and said hello to somebody and now he thinks he's going^ 
up-river. All these issues were very complicated, 
someone told me, solved this problem, no 
trouble. 

I mean, how silly can the law become? I mean, 
America looks ridiculous to legalize a war in such 
detail. I remember once driving through the streets of 

with^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand he 
those M-16S those guys are holding, those 16-year-old 

soldiers? They are allowed to shoot at 
terrorists, communists, but not criminals, rapists. I 
mean, you know, we make life very tough for ourselves. 

No, I didn't know that^^Vhad a trouble down 
there at that point. 

Q When did you find out that he was — 
A Sometime in the fall of last year, and I don't 
have any paper on it. People began to worry about 
and people were saying I know about^^Band I'm worried 
about^^H and Clair gave the standard answer 101 — 
please make sure he's not breaking the law. Make sure he 
understands the problem. 

Q When did you find out that he had been taking 




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1 instructions from 01 lie North? 

2 A In the fall. I don't know. I wish I had that 

3 date because I've been asked by a lot of people, 

4 including Gates a couple of times. I don't know what day 

5 it was, but suddenly one day I was told he's got a radio 

6 that Ollie gave him. 

7 Q Would it have been after Hasenfus or before 

8 Hasenfus? 

9 A Give me a date for Hasenfus. 

10 MR. POLGAR: Five October. 

11 THE WITNESS: I would think after, Paul. I 

12 wouldn't want to have my feet held to the fire, though. 

13 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

14 Q Okay. 

15 MR. POLGAR: Off the record. 

16 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

17 MR. BARBADORO: Let's go back on the record. 

18 BV MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

19 Q Let's turn to a different subject and get back 

20 to hostages. Do you recall an operation to free the 

21 hostages starting in 1985 that involved DEA agents and 

22 their informants in Lebanon? 

23 A Yes. You're going to have to remind me of the 

24 details, but at the Hostage Location Task Force DEA came 

25 up with someone at about that time who was going to be 



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1 able to help free the hostages. 

2 Q What did that plan involve? 

3 A I don't remember. 

4 Q Well, what can you remember about it? 

5 A That they had^^^^^B informant who, and again, 

6 like everybody else knew somebody who knew where they 

7 were and there was going to be money involved. I'm sorry 

8 I don't really remember the details. 

9 Q Let me mark as George Exhibit 3 a memorandum 

10 of June 7 from Robert McFarlane to Oliver North, subject 

11 Status of the Hostage Recovery Efforts. 

12 (The document referred to was 

13 marked George Exhibit Number 3 

14 for identification.) 

15 MR. MOFFETT: Excuse me. June 7? 

16 MR. BARBADORO: June 7, 1985. 

17 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

18 Q Mr. George, take a look at George Exhibit 3. 

19 Specifically there are two operations described, one 

20 beginning on page two, DEA operation, and that may 

21 refresh your memory. 

22 (Pause.) 

23 A I do not remember this. This is typical of 

24 case after case after case of bums, crooks, and petty 

25 thieves trying to sell hostages. Now again I don't want 



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to denigrate this particular operation, but every guy in 
the vorld — you see, the way to handle the hostage 
business is the way you do it in the United States. 
Somebody says to youl 







But I'm sorry, Paul. I don't know any part of 
this that I can remember. I remember DEA having contacts 
in Beirut,] 

land I can remember the Hostage Location Task Force 
following up with this and at that time it was probably 
but I don't remember the details. 
Q If an operation like this were to involve CIA 

^would you have to 

approve that operation? 

A I have been through this a lot, so I really 
know what this is all about. These guys would come out 
and I don't know that one (indicating) , and we may have 
gotten involved in, so that doesn't mean that we didn't 
(indicating). And they would say we're in touch with 
someone in Lebanon who can get you a hostage for money. 
I worked under what we later learned or knew 
was not the — well, it's all arguable. We can get into 
that later. But the Henry Kissinger 1975 
kidnapping/hostage policy, which is you don't trade 



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anything for hostages. 




[t was 

always known that there was private money. I mean back 
for 15 years I've always known there was private money in 
this country for the lives of Americans. 

And even in the Kissinger era of kidnappings I 
knew ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ suddenly money would appear. It 
wasn't U.S. Government money, but somebody arranged it. 
The whole concept of money, private money and government 
money, is always there. Ollie North always sort of 
implied when we were talking about the hostages that if I 
ever thought that I needed money and that policy dictated 
it, but I didn't want to take it from CIA funds because 



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they are Congressionally-controlled, he could get money. 
I would imagine I could name three names that 
I could pick up the phone tonight and say Tom Polgar's 
son is being held hostage in South Yemen and I need $1 
million, and I could get it. It's a very goddamn 
complicated business. I'm sorry. This operation? I 
don ' t know ; I don ' t remember this thing. 




Q But you never recall a plan involving DEA 
agents bribing free the hostages for $1 million apiece in 
'85? 

A Not a plan. You know, everybody had a plan, 
but up until somebody said okay, here's my plan, now give 



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me the $1 million, I sort of looked on everybody's plan 
as another plan. I don't remember that, to answer your 
question. 




Q At some poin1^ 
Ithey started getting money from Ollie NorthT 
What I'm trying to find out is was there a time in this 
DEA operation that the CIA decided it didn't want to be 
involved any further, and do you have any knowledge of 
that? 

A It's possible. I do not have any knowledge. 
I certainly could check it with the people who may 
remember better than I. 

Q Who would make that kind of decision? 
I would. 

But you don't remember it? 
I don't remember it. I mean, again please — 



A 

Q 
A 



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I probably make as many decisions a day as anybody we 
know. I know you know that. But someone, my NE guy or 
my terrorism guy or my hostage guy, would come to me and 
say I think the DEA or we believe the DEA case is running 
string. It's a bunch of hocus-pocus. It's a phoney. 
We're being ripped off. Let's stop. And I would say 
let's stop. 

But when DEA — my position on the hostages 
was that I would bend over as far as the law and good 
sense allow^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bon the 
hell their condition was, and seek information which, 
dear God, might lead to their rel< 




Q If someone were going to bribe the hostages 
free for $1 million apiece, is that something that would 
require a Presidential Finding? 

A You see, the strange thing about this whole 
affair is all through the entire time that the Iranian 
arms deal is going on the American policy still was not 
to pay for bribe for hostages. So that's tough. It's 
complicated. If the President decided that he was going 
to have official United States Government money spent to 
bribe for hostages — I assume you're saying he's turning 



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1 to the CIA. 

2 Q If there were a plan that involved the use of 

3 government money, would it require a Finding? 

4 A I don't know. I would have to ask Mike. 

5 That's a legal question. I mean, I've given up trying to 

6 figure out exactly when we need a Finding. I ask the 

7 lawyers. Lawyers, do we need a Finding? 

8 MR. PEARLINE: You would, I think, need a 

9 Finding. 

10 THE WITNESS: See what my lawyer said? 

11 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

12 Q To your knowledge was there ever a Finding for 

13 this operation? 

14 A God knows. Having now learned that there were 

15 lots of Findings written about Iran that I didn't know 

16 about, I can no longer say if a Finding were even written 

17 that I would know about it. I did not know of such a 

18 Finding. 

19 Q I don't mean this to sound confrontational, 

20 but around this time you were very concerned about 

21 Buckley and the other hostages. 

22 A Absolutely. 

23 Q You spoke with Ollie North frequently? 

24 A Yes. 

25 Q One could only assume that if Ollie North had 



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a plan like this that he would communicate to you. 

A He probably did. 

Q Do you recall him talking to you about a plan 
like this? 

A He probably did and I do not recall it, 
because it is — and again this sounds, and you are not 
confrontational. I sound crazy, but it is one of endless 
hairbrained schemes that took place at that time. 

Q Did some of these schemes come from Ollie 
North? 

A Well, Ollie North madel 

I mean, Ollie North was a 
very shrewd operator. I mean, all other things aside, 
excesses and tunnel visions, Ollie North had a lot of 
creativity on the subject. Ollie North was very good at 





The President 

of the United States wanted the hostages out. It is not 
an unfair request. After looking at what has happened, 
it may look embarrassing or silly or ridiculous and 
everybody spent a hell of a lot of time. 

I repeat again if my son or brother or father 



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1 were in there, I would want every son of a bitch in the 

2 American government to spend an awful lot of time trying 

3 to get him or her out. Now the law is nonexistent, 

4 basically, other than you can't spend Congressional 

5 monies and all the rest of it. I mean, the whole idea 

6 that you don't trade for hostages — in which I believe 

7 very strongly because it just leads to the mess we are in 

8 in Beirut — is that of the original five hostages we 

9 have 14 or whatever it is. 

10 Because now everybody is going to sell them 

11 for something. The law side, as my dear wife said, you 

12 guys are all big and tough. Boy, you sit around those 

13 rooms of power and you decide people's lives. The 

14 President of the United States wanted those guys out of 

15 there, and Oliver North did his thing and we all did our 

16 best, and I think within what we did — and it never 

17 ended; I could get records of all the stuff we did — we 

18 didn't break the law, but we bent over backwards to try 

19 • to do everything we could. 

20 And I would do it again and I would do it 

21 today, as long as my lawyers tell me. 

22 Q If you thought a plan like this — that is, 

23 bribing out hostages for $1 million apiece — would work, 

24 would you approve it? 

25 A No. You see, Paul, the whole idea is — I 



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1 lived abroad 20 years. The problem is very simple, that 

2 when they find out they can kidnap me and get $1 million 

3 for me, they would kidnap Tom and Mike and ask for $2 

4 million, and then when they get that they would kidnap 

5 David and Page. I mean, the world never ends. No, the 

6 right answer is you can't bribe for hostages. That's the 

7 right answer. 

8 Now there are a million — you see, the whole 

9 thing in the Iran arms deal was, as I told Senator 

10 Eagleton when he was sort of mushing around the hall with 

11 me, there were some thoughts you really weren't bribing 

12 for the hostages. You really weren't giving the arms or 

13 the money directly to the Hizbollah; you were giving them 

14 to some other guys and it really wasn't a bribe. That's 

15 in addition to whether you should be giving arms to Iran. 

16 The right answer is, don't pay cash or 

17 anything else for hostages. But, gee, whiz, is that hard 

18 to live up to when it's your emotional problem and not 

19 somebody else's. 

20 Q And this was your emotional problem because it 

21 involved Buckley? 

22 A Well, you see, I knew Buckley was dead. We 

23 ought to get the date. Get the date, gentlemen, ^^^^j^P 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^HJI^^^H^Vthat Buckley was 

25 dead. That wasn't if, and, maybe, sort of, kind of, we 



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have a report, he sounds sick. 




I assumed at that date — 
and that's sometime in the summer, I think; Paul, we can 
get that for you — that was the end of it for me. There 
was no more Bill Buckley. 

That did not make it, as I told the Tower 
Commission, it doesn't make it any less important. I 
mean, every other American should be just as important 
and is. 

Q In any event, you can't recall this DEA plan? 
You can't recall — 

A I recall DEA had contacts in Beirut, but I 
can't — you've kindly let me read the whole thing, but I 
don't remember it. 

Q And you can't recall Ollie North telling you 
about it, about a specific plan that involved bribing the 
hostages free for $1 million and putting up $200,000 up 
front? 

A This is a sort of silly answer. Knowing Ollie 



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very well, he may have told me that, but Ollie told me a 
lot of very strange things that he was doing for the 
hostages, and I don't recall that. Ollie was getting 
boats. Ollie was flying to Beirut. Ollie was getting 
airplanes. And he meant well. He meant to get the 
goddam hostages out. 

Q How about a plan, a similar plan, involving 
the same DEA agents and the same plan in the following 
year, in May or June of '86? 

A It may be the same one I remember. May I be 
frank with you? 

Q Please. 

A God bless the DEA. They are a wonderful 
organization. 




MR. BARBADORO: Let's go off the record. 
(A discussion was held off the record.) 
MR. BARBADORO: Back on the record. 



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1 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

2 Q Did you ever learn that Ross Perot was 

3 providing money to Ollie North to help gain the release 

4 of the hostages? 

5 AX think I knew that, and I think maybe Ollie 

6 at some point told me something to the effect — Ollie 

7 always claimed to be close to Ross Perot and Ross Perot, 

8 I think, makes no bones about it, since he writes 

9 articles about his involvement in this affair, but I sort 

10 of had at some point either heard Ollie tell me or 

11 someone told me. I assume that Ross Perot is one person, 

12 and I assume he would be today, that I could go to if a 

13 decision were to save someone's life and I needed money 

14 and I could prove my plan, that he would help me. 

15 Q At any time did you ever do anything to try to 

16 prevent these plans that involve paying bribes to gain 

17 the release of the hostages from taking place? 

18 A I don't remember a single operation that 

19 involved bribery or purported bribery that 1 thought was 

20 worth anything, that anything would ever come out of it. 

21 I never felt, though, that that level of hand me cash and 

22 I will hand you hostages would ever work. 

23 Q You just didn't take these plans seriously? 

24 A I'm sorry, I really didn't. The guys, again, 

25 holding American hostages are in a big-time international 



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1 operation. 

2 Q When did you first learn that United States 

3 arms were being sold to Iran in the hopes that hostages 

4 would be released? 

5 A Are you talking about United States arms under 

6 the control of Israel or United States arms under the 

7 control of the United States? 

8 Q Yes, it's arms under the control of Israel. 

9 A Probably in the fall. Let me walk quickly 

10 through my experience of the fall. Somewhere in late -- 

11 and this was not part of the SSCI testimony because I 

12 just didn't recall it; we have all had a lot of time to 

13 think and I read my testimony the other day and I know 

14 what I was thinking about — Bill Casey called me into 

15 his office — and this is a matter of record with the 

16 Tower Commission and with some others — well, he didn't 

17 call me in his office. I was in his office together 

18 with, I think, John McMahon — you can ask John, or I 

19 should ask John when I see him. 

20 Somebody else was there. John McMahon said to 

21 me you won't believe what Bud McFarlane just told me in 

22 the White House, and obviously that captures the interest 

23 of the employee. And we said, what, what. And he said 

24 the Israelis have an operation that involves the 

25 Iranians, which could possibly lead to the release of the 



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hostages. But, the government of Israel has told Bud 
that the absolute demand for us to be knowledgeable or 
involved in whatever it is is that CIA must never know 
about it. 

And Casey said to me, now, you know, who 
knows? Maybe he knew all about it and he was just 
playing games — I don't believe that. Casey said to me 
in the late summer or early fall I wonder what the hell 




Sometime that fall I became aware that arms had been sent 
to Iran by Israel and I thought, when I testified before 
the SSCI last November or December, that we had provided 
communications equipment to Bud McFarlane, who went to 
Israel, and I was very vague be cause I didn't kn ow. What 
I think I now know 




imous airplane that went in and 

came out and "crash-landed" -- I still don't know what 



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1 happened — and indicated that there were arms going into 

2 Tehran. 

3 And I somehow knew or associated that with the 

4 release of Benjamin Weir, and how much I knew the 

5 details, not much, because the whole thing becomes 

6 graphic to me the famous last weekend in November. 

7 Q You said several things I want to ask you 

8 about. 

9 A Please. 

10 Q The meeting with Casey, give me the best 

11 estimate of the date that you can on that. 

12 A I wish I could. I would suspect September. 

13 I've really racked my brain. I will ask John, if John 

14 was there — God knows we were not in the room alone with, 

15 him, and there was a twinkle in his eye. I had the 

16 feeling that Casey really didn't know what the hell was 

17 going on. 

18 Q And as best you can remember what did he tell 

19 you the operation was? 

20 A I'll quote it again as best I remember it. He 

21 said, Bud tells me that the Israelis have — and this is 

22 all paraphrasing it, of course — but it went like, Bud 

23 tells me the Israelis have a contact with the Iranians 

24 which could possibly lead to the release of the hostages. 

25 Q And at that time he didn't say anything to you 



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1 about arms being involved? 

2 A Casey said to me, frankly -- and again, you 

3 know, this is a complicated world; who knows when your 

4 leg is being pulled -- Casey said to me I don't know what 

5 the hell he's talking about. And he then emphasized, as 

6 I say, again that the Israeli demand to allow us to be 

7 part of it, which is now the way I read it a year and a 

8 half later -- whatever it is; two years later — was that 

9 you won't tell the CIA; they must not know about it. 

10 Q Have you ever found out why the CIA was not 

11 supposed to know about this operation? 

12 A No, but let's you and I guess. 

13 Q I'd like your guess. It's probably better 

14 than mine. 

15 A Because they were certain that we would have 

16 to tell Congress. They had, for a variety of 

17 geostrategic reasons — and they still have and always 

18 will have, as Tom knows, as Mike knows — the Israeli 

19 necessity to seek accommodation with Iran. It is part of 

20 the geopolitical realities of the Middle East. And they 

21 had made contacts. We now know, we guess, they made them 

22 through Mr. Ghorbanifar, and they wanted the Americans to 

23 get involved. 

24 Everybody is talking about a dialogue. 

25 Everybody's talking about hostages. We have the weapons. 



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Well, you read what I said to the SSCI. It's the same 
thing. 

Q On or about the 9th of September North asked 
Charlie AllenI 





A Could be. Charlie Allen did that ? I never 
knew C harlie A^^r^^^^JJ^^^^Char lie Aller^^^^^^^^^B 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■totall^^^ 
unknown to me through the fall. 

At some point, and I thought it was in '86, 
Charlie Allen, whom I rarely see, came to my office and 

said, I have been aske d to make available 

God 

knows what. And he sat with me for about ten minutes and 
talked about them and left. It's not unfair to Charlie, 
but we formally never discussed them again. I see 
Charlie in the halls all the time. 

That may have been what I read in the fall of 
•85. 

Q In your Tower Board interview you said that 
you did get^^^^^^^^^^^^^H and that's consistent with 
what you're saying now. You also said that you talked to 



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20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



Charlie Allen several times about it. Is your 
recollection the same as that? 

A My full recollection of it all was that I paid 
very little attention to it eventually. I couldn't 
understand it. Into the picture came guys I trusted and 
knew. After January comes staf^ employees of my 

who — ^HBHHIHilHHD — 

well, he doesn't really work for me, but he's a guy in 
whom have — f igure|^^^^m|^^^^and 
then I pay' less and less attention to it. 

Charlie did not perceive me as a regular guy 
to brief on the issue. 

Q But you did geti 
A Oh, I probably got 




[and hostages 
Did you draw that conclusion, 
those conclusions, in the fall of '85? 

A In the fall of '85? I must have, but they 
were not American arms. It was not an American 
operation; it was Israeli. The Israelis were up to 
something that we were sitting around watching, which was 
going to lead to hostage release, so it wasn't us. 



uNtt/rsmiED 



76 



UNeiASSIFfEi 



74 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



Q And you had no idea that it was North who had 
given that tasking to Charlie Allen? 

A No, I was never told about that.^^^^^^^^^f 

), I didn't know 
North tasked Aller 




A Okay. I must have known that arms were being 
traded by the Israelis for hostages. I certainly must 
have known from William Casey's comments that some part 
of the American government was involved in it. I can 
remember talking to Ollie North about the release of Weir 
and the great pleasure that everybody had that this had 
taken place and that there was a role the American 
government had played in it. But I did not have the 
picture I then got later. 

Q What did North tell you? 

A North said, gee, I wish they would release 




Q But didn't North tell you something about his 
role in this thing? I mean, Ollie North, if there is one 
thing Ollie North is, he is the kind of person that would 



UNCLffSSinED 



77 



UN^L^SStfe 



75 



1 talk about these efforts. 

2 A Well, I think he didn't want the Directorate 

3 of Operations in this mess. I didn't read all of the 

4 thing, PROF notes, but I'm told if you read them, we're a 

5 bunch of jerks. I mean, we can't get the damn thing done 

6 right. And so, therefore, you sort of operate with 

7 Charlie or you operate with somebody else. I'm not sure 

8 that I did ever know that. I don't ever want to claim I 

9 didn't know that. 

10 Q After Weir's release did North tell you that 

11 he had been released because the Israelis shipped arms to 

12 Iran? 

13 A Not in those specific words that I can recall. 

14 Q What do you recall? 

15 A I don't recall. I do not recall knowing that 

16 Weir's release was involved with the airplane flight. I 

17 knew about the airplane flight because there was all 

18 kinds of re p orting about the airplane flight. 
19 
20 
21 

22 And I knew then that Weir was released, and I probably 

23 associated — my recollection, Paul, is that starting 

24 then — and I don't want to change the subject and come 

25 back to it — compared with the realities of what I then 




UNCttSStf^D 



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UN€LASSIF»I£D 



76 



1 knew following the last week in November, into the 

2 Finding, I was still slightly foggy in the fall of '85. 

3 Q Is it fair to say you knew something was going 

4 on involving Israel and the hostages? 

5 A Absolutely. 

6 Q And that it involved some kind of arms • — 

7 A And the Americans knew about it. 

8 Q And the Americans knew about it. 

9 A Damn right. 

10 Q But you didn't know that TOWs were being sold 

11 to Iran; is that right? 

12 A Absolutely correct. 

13 Q You have testified that you were gone on 

14 November 22. The weekend of November 22 you were out of 

15 headquarter s. Whe re were you? 

16 A 

17 Q And when did you leave the headquarters to go 

18 to] 

19 A I think I left Thursday morning. I mean, you 
2 guys — gee, they even found my travel vouchers that we 

21 just shipped to you guys. I can't even find my own 

22 travel vouchers. There wa 

23 The fact that I 

24 nothing to do with it, Paul, 
2 5 (Laughter. ) 






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1 Q Were you out of touch with your office from 

2 the 23rd to the 25th? 

3 A Ves. 

4 Q In your absence Juchniewicz was in charge? 

5 A Ed Juchniewicz was Acting. Well, I think he 

6 was in charge of the office. 

7 Q Before you left, did you know anything about 

8 Clarridge being asked to line up a proprietary, a CIA 

9 proprietary, for this flight 

10 A No. 

11 Q When did you first hear about it? 

12 A I came back Monday morning, Monday afternoon, 

13 went in. McMahon was in a rage. He told me to pull 

14 together the traffic, meaning the telegrams, that took 

15 place, went back and forth. I got them in, put them in a 

16 little folder and took them to John and read them when I 

17 took them, and that was when I first knew about it. 

18 Later John came in, again quite upset and 

19 terribly concerned, talking to Juchniewicz, and his 

20 remark, which is burned in my mind, was not only did we 

21 send the goddam telegrams, but the goddam airplane went 

22 in. Now obviously we know that that was the famous 

23 proprietary flight. 

24 Q Have you seen McMahon ' s memorandum for the 

25 record of December 5? 



liNCttSStFfED 



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UNCraSSTPED 



78 



1 A No. ^-.- 

2 Q Excuse me -- memorandum for the record of 

3 December 7, 1985. Let me mark that as George Exhibit 4. 

4 (The document referred to was 

5 marked George Exhibit Number 4 

6 for identification.) 

7 (Pause.) 

8 A I'm sorry. This is so fuzzy. I have not seen 

9 this memorandum before. 

10 Q The memorandum refers to a meeting where 

11 Juchniewicz is briefing you about what happened while you 

12 were gone and McMahon was present. Do you recall a 

13 meeting like that? 

14 A Well, I would think that was the same time 

15 when McMahon and Juchniewicz arrived in Juchniewicz 's 

16 office and McMahon was furious and Juchniewicz was 

17 telling me about all these cables that had gone out. 

18 Q Do you recall the time of day that was? Was 

19 it in the morning? 

20 A It would be in the morning of the day that I 

21 got back, and I assume it would be Monday morning. 

22 Again, my travel vouchers will say whenever I got back. 

23 Have you seen that before? 

24 MR. PEARLINE: Yes. 

25 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 



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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

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20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



UH€LRS^Stf^O 



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Q The memorandum talks about a meeting on the 
25th wher^^^^^^^^l was giving you a "spot report" on a 
flight the^^^^^^^l airlines had made in support of the 
NSC mission. Do you recall a meeting where^^^^^^^Hwas 
giving you a briefing on the^^^^^^^H flight? 

A I don't know. I mean, we could easily have 
called^^^v He was in charge 

and controlled the proprietary ,^^^^^^^^V I'm sure we 
did call him up and ask him, but I don't remember, Paul. 

Q Prior to the 2 5th did you know anything about 
an NSC mission? 

A No, I did not. 

Q What were you told was shipped on the aircraft 
on the 2 5th? 

A I don't know what I was told was shipped on 
the aircraft on the 25th. I am now told I was told that 
it was oil-drilling equipment. 

Q You can't remember what you were told? 

A But, what the hell I thought on the morning of 
Monday that so-and-so was on the airplane, I have no 
idea. It soon became — whether the knowledge or the 
surmise of the Agency — that it was weapons, but that 
within the next month or so. But that morning I don't 
know what I thought was going on. I assume I thought 
whatever Ed Juchniewicz thought, because Juchniewicz, who 



UNetASSIFIED 



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UNeiASSIFIED 



80 




1 was acting for me, would have told ne whatever he thought 

2 was on that airplane. 

3 Q You don't have any memory of being told that 

4 it was oil-drilling equipment on the airplane on the 

5 25th? 

6 A No, I do not. 

7 Q What did McMahon do when he heard that I 

8 ^^^^^^^^^^^^had been involved in a flight to Iran? 

9 A He said there will be no more activity in 

10 support of any of this without a Finding. 

11 Q And did he ask you to collect the cables? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Did you collect the cables? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q Did you speak to Dewey Clarridge about it? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q From reading the cables and from speaking to 

18 Dewey Clarridge did you draw any conclusion about what 

19 was involved on the flight? 

20 A That it was arms for hostages? 

21 Q Did you draw a conclusion as to whether it was 

22 oil-drilling equipment or whether it was arms that was on 

23 the aircraft? 

24 A No, I cannot recall that I did. 

25 Q Have you talked to Dewey Clarridge about this 



onctirssiFiEi^ 



83 



UI^USSIESED 



81 



1 thing since November of '85? 

2 A Not in a formal sense, in an informal sense. 

3 Everybody knows that there is disagreements about what 

4 happened. 

5 Q Are you aware that it is Dewey Clarridge's 

6 position that he thought it was oil-drilling equipment on 

7 that flight? 

8 A I assumed he would have. I can't believe that 

9 he would have been told by Ollie North we are shipping 

10 weapons and then not have told us that. If Ollie North 

11 called him and said we're shipping oil-drilling 

12 equipment, I'm sure Dewey thought it was oil-drilling 

13 equipment. 

Voui^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hhas a 

15 deposition in which he has stated under oath that he was 

16 briefed on November 23 by a guy who called himself Copp 

17 that there were missiles on the flight and he has stated 

18 that he sent a cable stating that there were missiles on 

19 . the flight to headquarters. 

20 Have you ever seen a cable from^^^^^Hon 

21 November 23 that referred to missiles being on the 

22 flight? 

23 A I am aware of this dispute, and I am aware of 

to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^A who 

25 dear friend and in whom I have great trust, about his 



UNt^lSSIRED 



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UII£USStF4ED 



82 



1 conversation with Secord in which Secord said to him in 

2 the parking lot of the hotel where Secord was staying, do 

3 you know what we are doing. And^^^Hsaid, please tell 

4 me; I've been up two nights and I'd like to know. 

5 He said, we're trading missiles for hostages. 

6 ^^^^^^^^^ys he put that in a cable. Dewey said — I 

7 don't know what Dewey said. Dewey said he never saw it. 

8 I think Dewey's right. A cable of that — and that is in 

9 no way meant to impugn poor^^^^^^^^^^^Htestimony. I 

10 think he sort of forgotten whath^cable^that weekend or 

11 what he didn't. A cable of that impact could never have 

12 just disappeared in the Central Intelligence Agency. 

13 Q Is it fair to say that if you had read a cable 

14 like that on the 2 5th you would remember it? 

15 A Boy, would I remember it. 

16 Q And you do not remember any cable fros 

17 A I have seen no cable like that. 

18 Q Discussing the fact that there were arms on 

19 .the airplane? 

20 A It was even more brutal. 

21 MR. POLGAR: Off the record, please. 

22 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

23 MR. BARBADORO: Let's go back on the record. 

24 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

25 Q I may have asked this, but let's just be clear 




UNCtltSStHED 



i 

i 



85 



UN^^SMED 



a3 



1 about it. Vou never saw a cable f rom^^^^^^^^^^^H in 

2 November 1985 which discussed the fact that on that 

3 flight there were supposed to be arms going to Iran? 

4 A I did not. 

5 Q And to your knowledge no such cable exists; is 

6 that right? 

7 A To my knowledge, no such cable exists. 

8 Q If a cable had been sent eyes only to Dewey 

9 Clarridge it would also be sent to you, wouldn't it? 

10 A The privacy channel that he would be allowed 

11 to use would be only seen, other than by him and his 

12 secretary, by me and Ed Juchniewicz and our secretaries. 

13 Q Do you know whether your records have been 

14 reviewed to determine whether there is such a cable? 

15 A We would not keep chronological copies of his 

16 privacy channels. We keep chronological copies of our 

17 privacy channels. But we're not an office of record, so 

18 the dozens and hundreds of privacy messages over a month 

19 - that are being sent by bosses, mostly about personnel 

20 problems, which are sensitive, are not held by us. 

21 Q Do you know whether the DO records have been 

22 checked for this cable? 

23 A I do not, but I can't believe they wouldn't 

24 be. 

2 5 MR. PEARLINE: They have been checked, yes. 



UNCLASSlftID 



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UNekASSlRED 



84 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



reference 




A 

Q 



BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 
Let us mark a cable dated 25 November 85, 

[as George Exhibit 5. 
(The document referred to was 
marked George Exhibit Number 5 
for identification.) 
Mr. George, take a look at Exhibit 5, please. 
(Pause. ) 

I saw tnis cable. 

That cable mentions the fact that the pilot of 
the plane told the ground control^^^^^^^^pthat military 
equipment was involved in the flight. Do you recall 
reading that in November of 1985? 

A I recall seeing this cable, and I assume I 
either saw it in November — 1 must have seen it in 
November. I also recall talking tol 

^^^^^^^^^^^■who came to see me early in the following 
year and told me of the same incident. 
Q From that cable, 

from your discussions with Charlie Allen, 
from what Casey told you about an operation, from 
everything else you knew in November of '85, did you 
reach a conclusion as to what was really involved in that 
flight on the 25th of November, when you received this 





cable" 



UNCtftSS^ED 



87 



UNCLASSIftED 



85 



1 A Well, I did not assume absolutely that it was 

2 weapons. I mean, I must say, reading this cable 

3 hurriedly in a day, that there is in my mind the 

4 skeptical. So the pilot said military equipment, so he 

5 didn't have to check something or something. I — yes, I 

6 probably believed personally they were weapons, but I did 

7 not know they were weapons. 

8 Q Did McMahon in his meeting with you on the 

9 25th say anything about whether a Finding would be 

10 required for this kind of activity? 

11 A He said to me and to Juchniewicz, I believe 

12 together — you can ask Ed — there will be no more. You 

13 see, I am perceiving, and certainly by reading McMahon's 

14 memo, which I do not recall, that John knew more about 

15 this than I did, which he should. That's reasonable 

16 because he's the Deputy Director, Acting Director at 

17 times. John said there would be no more support of any 

18 of this without a Finding. 

19 And that I recall clearly. He knew, I think, 

20 more about what this was than I did. 

21 Q Do you know whether he asked somebody in OGC 

22 to draft a Finding? 

2 3 A I don't know that. I mean, I know now, Paul, 

24 after the fact that he did, but at the time I did not. 

25 Q He didn't tell you anything about a Finding 



UN0LASSIFtE{) 



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UNtLASStFilD 



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1 being drafted? 

2 A Nope, not that I can recall. 

3 Q Did you know at the time, in November of '85, 

4 that a Finding was drafted on November 2 6 and sent over 

5 to the White House? 

6 A No, I did not that I can recall. 

7 Q Did you know that efforts were made between 

8 November 2 6 and December 5 to determine whether the White 

9 House had approved the Finding? 

10 A I was not part of that that I can recall. 

11 Q Were you at all' concerned that people working 

12 for you had engaged in activity that required a 

13 Presidential Finding without Presidential approval? 

14 A Well, I was concerned, but I delivered the 

15 file and the evidence to John McMahon, who was obviously 

16 personally involved in it, and then came another day and 

17 another issue and another problem. But I presume, 

18 because — and I'm not being unfair to John, a dear 

19 friend — I just presumed John was terribly concerned and 

20 John was going to take care of it, because he was very, 

21 very worried. 

22 I think John was going to send -- and I don't 

23 know if I knew this then; I know this now — but I think 

24 John was in telegraphic correspondence with Casey, who 

25 was traveling abroad, about this problem. But John sort 



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UN€LASSiFtED 



87 



1 of assumed the problem. Now I'm not chickening out, but 

2 John would have taken care of it because he was worried. 

3 Q By November 25 did you know that Ollie North 

4 was connected with, after reading the cable traffic and 

5 discussing with Clarridge — 

6 A Dewey told me it was Ollie North that told 

7 him, that it was Ollie North that wanted the airplane, 

8 that it was Ollie North that was frantic. 

9 Q Did you call North and ask him what he was 

10 doing in this operation? 

11 A No, I did not that I recall. 

12 Q You spoke with him frequently on a whole host 

13 of matters, didn't you? 

14 A Uh-huh. 

15 Q Do you recall whether you discussed this 

16 particular matter with him in November of '85? 

17 A I do not recall that, Paul. I do not recall 

18 discussing it. I recall saying there will be no more of 

19 this at all until John is satisfied that we can do it 

20 and, to the best of my knowledge, even though I've been 

21 informed that in December there were still cables roaming 

22 around a bout making plans if we wanted to land planesi 

23 ^^^^H I was assured by all the players that there would~ 
2 4 be no activity taking place without a clearance from 

25 John, who understood the issue better than I, which meant 




UNCCISSTFrrD 



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UNtLASStPI€D 



88 



1 a Finding. 

2 And to the best of my knowledge, then, of 

3 course, we keep moving up to the famous Finding. Nothing 

4 did happen, although whether Ollie had made plans and 

5 Dewey sent cables, which I've been told after the fact, 

6 and I maybe even saw them, but, you know, I said no more 

7 of this and, to the best of my knowledge, there was no 

8 more of that. 

9 Q When was the first Finding that you were aware 

10 Of? 

11 A The only Finding, I swear to God, I have ever 

12 seen, and Senator Cohen did one on me when he pulled five 

13 of them out of his desk in front of the SSCI, was the 

14 Finding handed to me by John Poindexter in the White 

15 House situation room on the 18th of January 1986. 

16 MR. O'NEILL: Could we go back a minute? 

17 THE WITNESS: Please. 

18 MR. O'NEILL: About the meeting you had with 

19 McMahon on the 2 0th of November -- 

20 THE WITNESS: On Monday. 

21 MR. O'NEILL: The 25th of November. 

22 THE WITNESS: Whatever date; I don't remember. 

23 MR. O'NEILL: You said that you assume he was 

24 going to resolve this, but that you then recall saying 

25 that nothing more will take place. 



UNet«SStftED 



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1 THE WITNESS: John says I want nothing more of 

2 this kind to take place, and I went down to whomever — 

3 probably^^^^^^^^H whom we can ask, and to Oewey 

4 Clarridge -- and said we're not going to do any more of 

5 this without checking it out through the front office. 

6 MR. O'NEILL: Do you believe that what you 

7 told them would have been clear enough to them such that 

8 they would have understood that sending out additional 

9 cables to arrange additional flights would have been 

10 prohibited or not? 

11 THE WITNESS: No. I think it's the thing. 

12 You see, planning is one thing; doing is something else. 

13 And if you ever were on any given day to know all the 

14 plans that were being made inside the American government 

15 on all the subjects, you would be so terrified you would 

16 leave. You can't stop people planning. You've got to 

17 stop them from acting. And I think I stopped them. I'm 

18 sorry, I think I stopped them from acting. 

19 You k now, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan. 
2 I remember once 
21 
22 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H But the good news is the plans don't 

24 count; it's the action that counts. 

25 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 




imCtflSSIffED 



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imClASSMD 



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1 Q You are aware in this case that there were 

2 cables sent 

3 A I'm told about all kinds of cables. You know, 

4 what would you do, why would it happen. If I asked you 

5 to land an airplane, what would it do. And the answer 

6 was I don't care how much you talk to the SOBs — 

7 Q As long as they weren't doing it? 

8 A Don't do anything. 

9 MR. O'NEILL: So you don't view those cables 

10 as being in contravention to your orders? 

11 THE WITNESS: No, because who knows? We may 

12 get an agreement that 01 lie North is going to fly another 

13 airplane and the National Security Council wants to land 

14 the damn thing, and we can 't kee p^^^^^^MI^^Bup for 48 

15 solid hours trying to fine 

16 again. Let's have something organized this time. 

17 You know, we now in 1987, by the grace of God, 

18 are here, but this was the White House, and the White 

19 House was calling the CIA and they were asking for help. 

20 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

21 Q Did you know in November of '85 that Secord 

22 was involved in this thing? He is referred to as Copp in 

23 the cables. 

24 A Yeah, and I now know so much, having talked to 

25 ^^^^^^^^Ithat I'm not sure when I first knew that he was 




UNCLKSSTFTED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



91 




1 the guy on the ground. Bud was in Brussels, Copp wasi 

2 ^^^^^^^H They were calling each other on the phone. When 

3 I first learned that, Paul, I don't think I knew it in 

4 November of '85. 

5 Q Okay. Did you know that the CIA secure voice 

6 communications system was used to pass messages from NSC 

7 people to CIA people! 

8 A I think I did. I think I knew that, and I 

9 think I asked for the transcripts, the tapes of those, 

10 and I think I gave some of them to the National — 

11 ordered some of them given to the National Security 

12 Council and others I believe are either still in our 

13 possession or in your possession. 

14 MR. BARBADORO: David, if it hasn't been 

15 requested already, we would like all of the transcripts 

16 of the secure voice communications system. 

17 MR. PEARLINE: The^^Bthatwas used? 

18 MR. BARBADORO: Yes ,^^^^^^Band back. 

19 THE WITNESS: And I gave some of those, David, 
to^^^^^^ Talk ^^^^^^^^^^ ^ ^°^^^^H giving 

21 one bunch, which was McFarlane talking to somebody, back 

22 to McFarlane. 

2 3 MR. MOFFETT: Would it now be possible — do 

24 you need a break now? It's been an hour. 

25 THE WITNESS: Let's have a break. 



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1 
2 
3 

4 
5 
6 

7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



MR. BARBADORO: Okay. 
(A brief recess was taken.) 
MR. BARBADORO: On the record. 
BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 
Q I'd like to mark as the next exhibit, 6, a 
document which for our records is C-5281. 

(The document referred to was 
marked George Exhibit Number 6 
for identification.) 
Mr. George, I am told that this is a copy of a 
document that came from your soft file. 
(Pause. ) 
A No, this is from Stan Sporkin's file. That's 

I and 




Sporkin getting a job foi 
then Sporkin on the computer working on a Finding, and 
that was shown to me when they did all of Stan's reviews 
because I had never seen that Finding at all. 
^hat first thing, Dear | 

lis was Stan 
getting the kid a summer job. Then the next thing they 
ran, and this is Stan's PROF notes, the next thing they 
ran was a Finding. Wrong witness, Paul. 

Q It came from your soft file, according to Paul 
Schilling. 




Well, Paul Shilling 




I know what 



UNCL)f$SfFi!£D 



95 



lJN€iASStR£D 



93 



1 that document is because it was shown to me, but it was 

2 not. 

3 Q Could you have kept a copy of it and taken it 

4 and put it in the files? 

5 A I wouldn't in a million years have kept a copy 

6 of all the documents. I wouldn't keep a copy of it. How 

7 Sporkin managed to — that was all written in the era 

8 when Stan — what I now know I know after the fact, I 

9 think — that was all written in the era that Stan was 

10 writing the many versions of the Finding — the mini- 

11 Finding, the retroactive Finding, yesterday's Finding, 

12 tomorrow's Finding. 

13 I recognize it. I smiled because! 

14 is a friend of mine and he is a doctor and that's his 

15 son, and Stan was getting the kid a job. 

16 Q And when was the first time that you saw that 

17 document? 

18 A I don't know -- since all of this began. 

19 Q Somebody showed it to you? 

20 A Ves. 

21 Q Who? 

22 A Somebody at OGC, I think, showed it to me and 

23 asked me if I had ever seen the Finding. But, you know, 

24 I promise you that it's not. If it's in my soft file, it 

25 was placed there by gremlins. 



UNCtirSSfF?ED 



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OWmsSfFJED 



94 



1 Let me see it one more time to see which 

2 Finding that is. 

3 Q That is the mini-Finding, what's been called 

4 the mini-Finding. 

5 A I never saw this. This is the famous mini- 

6 Finding. 

7 MR. O'NEILL: Isn't that unusual? Wouldn't 

8 something like that have come through your office? 

9 THE WITNESS: It was the only time, Michael, 

10 and I made this point both to the SSCI and the Tower 

11 Commission, I believe, that the DDO himself and his 

12 officers who were to engage in the — what am I saying — 

13 in the carrying out of covert action were not involved in 

14 the writing. 

15 MR. O'NEILL: And you learned about it after 

16 the fact? 

17 THE WITNESS: The only Finding I ever saw was 

18 the famed 17 January Finding when I was taken to the 

19 White House and it was only after that, sometime later, 

20 that I was informed that a variety — in fact, I never 

21 knew there were so many until Senator Cohen of Maine 

22 waved in front of my face five of them. 

23 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

24 Q Let me jus t rule a couple of things out here. 

25 You know ^^^^^^^^^H but you never wrote a draft of a 



BNlJtftSStfiO 



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UHMaiEB 



95 



1 letter on behalf ofl 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Q And the first time you saw this letter and the 

4 mini-Finding that goes with it was when? 

5 A Sometime after this confusion began and 

6 somebody brought it to me and showed it to me. It was 

7 not sometime -- 

8 Q Sometime after November '86? 

9 A After November. 

10 Q And you never saw what's been referred to a^ 

11 the mini-Finding, the Finding written on November 26 and 

12 supposedly sent to the White House? 

13 A No, I did not. 

14 Q And no one ever told you in November that a 

15 Finding was being sent over to the President for 

16 signature? 

17 A No, they did not, to my recollection. 

13 MR. O'NEILL: After the fact what explanation 

19 ■ was given to you as to why this Finding was not routed 

2 through out? 

21 THE WITNESS: I suspect that they didn't think 

22 I was the biggest fan in history of all of this stuff. 
2 3 MR. POLGAR: Yes, I think we can state that 

24 ^^^^^^^^^^H^^ ^ medical doctor and all of us know him 

25 because he does the annual physicals on all the 



uircLKis;sir?ED 



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1 supergrades. 

2 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

3 Q Okay. 

4 A If he only knew. Andy Warhol said a moment of 

5 ^ame will come to you all. 

6 (Laughter.) 

7 Q Let us mark this as Exhibit 7. It is the 

8 January 17 Finding signed by President Reagan. 

9 (The document referred to was 

10 marked George Exhibit Number 7 

11 for identification.) 

12 Take a look at Exhibit 7, the January 17 

13 Finding. Is that the only Finding you were aware of as 

14 of January 18, 1986, the only Finding on Iran that you 

15 were aware of? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q And you had not seen any earlier drafts of 

18 that Finding? 

19 A No. 

20 Q Do you recall a meeting on or about December 

Clarridge ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|to 

22 discuss Ghorbanifar? 

2 3 A I remember a lot about Ghorbanifar in December 

24 of 1985, Paul. I'm not sure I remember that meeting 

25 specifically. 



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1 Q When do you first remember hearing 

2 Ghorbanifar 's name being mentioned in December of '85? 

3 A Well, at that time we were being urged to 

4 establish an operational relationship with Mr. 

5 Ghorbanifar to try to get it -- quite correctly, to be 

6 fair to everybody — by the Director, who had been 

7 informed by people in whom we had some trust, above all 

8 the Israelis, who said Ghorbanifar was the greatest thing 

9 since bagels, Michael Ledeen, who visited the Director 

10 and told him he was a great guy, and the White House, 

11 which, as we now know, was obviously quite interested in 

12 the Israeli idea. 

13 And I think if I tried to reconstruct it they 

14 wanted us to handle Ghorbanifar. Now we pulled out — 

15 will walk through it again for the record -- we pulled 

16 out the file. 

17 Q Who is "they"? 

18 A The White House, the National Security 

19 Council, would like us, I think is my interpretation, to 

20 become involved with Mr. Ghorbanifar. 

21 Q Who was giving you that information? 

22 A Michael Ledeen, whom I know casually and not 

23 well, who was at the time — he informed me, and, more 

24 importantly, others that worked for me -- an advisor to 

25 the National Security Council, said that it was his 



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100 



yNDlftSStl^SED 



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1 belief that Ghorbanifar was probably the most capable 

2 contact that was available, and the Israelis agreed with 

3 him, to open a dialogue with Iran, and the urging came 

4 from Michael and from the National Security Council. 

5 Q This is in December of '85? 

6 A It's in that general period. I could find 

7 those dates because^^^^^^^^Hwent out and met 

8 Ghorbanifar at Ledeen's house. You know, I don't have it 

9 all in my head. 

10 Q In your mind in December was Ghorbanifar being 

11 connected with the Israeli initiative regarding Iran? 

12 A It wasn't in my head at that time. You see, 

13 that's why I feel very confused. 

14 in the fall in which we now think Asghari — correct me 

15 if I'm wrong — is Ghorbanifar, and then in December my 

16 memory is we are being urged to deal with Ghorbanifar. 

17 Q By Israel and by Ledeen, correct? 

18 A Well, by Bill Casey and the White House wanted 

19 us to deal with Mr. Ghorbanifar. 

20 Q And when you say "deal with Ghorbanifar", what 

21 did they want to do with Ghorbanifar? 

22 A Well, I guess they truly believed that 

23 Ghorbanifar was the individual who was going to do two 

24 things, both of which are not ignoble — one, release the 

25 hostages; two, open a dialogue with Iran. 




imCtASStPTED 



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1 Now we, of course, thought Ghorbanifar was a 

2 cheat and a crook and totally dishonest. 

3 Q You are getting a little bit ahead of me. 

4 A Please. I'm sorry. 

5 Q How did you understand that Ghorbanifar was 

6 going to be used to get the hostages back and to open up 

7 a relationship with Iran? 

8 A I think by that time Ghorbanifar was portrayed 

9 to us as someone who had superb relations at the top 

10 levels of what could be described as reasonable elements 

11 in Tehran. The foreign policy goals were the following. 

12 And that those elements, as a secondary part of it, 

13 probably were influential with the Hizb^lah, whom we all 

14 knew were holding hostages, as a secondary point. 

15 What I can't figure out by memory — and! 

16 and^^Hmight answer it more wisely than I — is what was 

17 the great anxiety to drag us into it. But there was real 

18 interest in CIA's Operations Directorate dealing with Mr. 

19 Ghorbanifar. Now we know historically they were already 

20 dealing with Mr. Ghorbanifar. Why did they need us? I 

21 don't know. 

22 Q Did you know in December that Ghorbanifar was 

23 connected with the earlier initiative from Israel? 

24 A I cannot recall that I did, Paul. 

25 Q Did you know that Ghorbanifar was being 



52-71U 0101 



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1 contemplated as an intermediary for future shipments of 

2 arms, U.S. arms, to Iran? 

3 A I can't recall that I knew that specifically, 

4 but then, on the other hand, to be perfectly fair, I knew 

5 that there was very high level interest that somebody 

6 deal with Mr. Ghorbanifar. I must have said, why all this 

7 interest. 

8 Q Did you get your instruction about having 

9 somebody meet with Ghorbanifar from Casey? 

10 A Maybe. It's no answer, I realize. It may be 

11 after a visit from Ledeen that Casey talked to me about 

12 having a good look. Casey never said you will do this. 

13 Casey said, Clair, I want you to have a good look at 

14 Ghorbanifar at some point in that period, and that led to 

15 finally the polygraph, the meetings, the discussions. 

16 Q When the name was mentioned to you in December 

17 by whoever, either Ledeen or Casey, did you know who 

18 Ghorbanifar was? 

19 A Me, Clair George? 

20 Q Yes. 

21 A No, unless somebody had told me about him the 

22 month before in relationship to the Israeli connection 

23 with the arms flight. But Ghorbanifar, at least up until 

24 that general time frame, the late fall/early winter of 

25 '85, was nobody I had ever heard of. 



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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 




Q According to^^^^^^^B statement to us, he met 
with Ghorbanifar on December 22 and December 23. Did you 
have a meeting with^^^^^fbefore he went to talk to 
Ghorbanifar? 

A I'm sure I did, yes. I'm sure I did. 

Q And what did you tell him to do? 

A Well, you know because you must have talked to 
him. I hope I said give it a fair shot. Go meet with 
him, get a reading of him, give him a polygraph, see what 
he's got to say for himself, see what he can do for us. 
We're out in another business now at this point. 

Obviously if we could 
open a dialogue with the Iranians I'm sure we could get 
ourselves a Presidential Finding or however we need to go 
about it. 





I would hope, I said to^^^l — and^^^Hwill remember 
it, I know — I said give it a shot. See what he's 
worth. Let's find out if he's got anything going for him 
and give it the college try. ^^^^Hmet him and we 
polygraphed him. 

Q What did^^^Hftell you about Ghorbanifar 
after he met him before the polygraph? 

A He said he's a crook. 

Q Did he tell you about his 201 file? 



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UNci/rswffi 



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1 A Yes. They lined up outside my office. 

2 Everybody told us, fighting to get in to tell me what a 

3 crook he was. 

4 Q It's fair to say that people at CIA, including 

5 ^^^^^Band other people that were familiar with 

6 Ghorbanifar, didn't think he was a reliable source? 

7 A On the other hand, there are two points to be 

8 made. Just because you were of no value X years ago does 

9 not mean you cannot be of value to the intelligence 

10 service. That's very important. And I think the other 

11 thing — and this is incidental to the questioning but it 

12 should be thought about by all of us here, which was 

13 brought out very thoughtfully by somebody on the Tower 

14 Commission — give old Ghorbanifar credit. He got Bud 

15 McFarlane to Tehran and he got a couple of hostages out. 

16 It turns out to be a hell of a price, but 

17 Ghorbanifar maybe wasn't quite as incompetent as the 

18 United States spy service thought. 

19 Q Is it fair to say, though, that after; 
2 meeting with him that he,^|^^^Hdid not have good 
21 things to say about Ghorbanifar? 
2 2 A ^^^^^H absolutely thought the guy was, as I 

23 recall at the time — and poor^^^^^f was, you know, 

24 after a lifetime serving i n^^^^^^^^^^^B I'd done him 

25 the big favor of giving him the Iran^^^^^Hbecause he 




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I 



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103 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

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18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



was a totally reliable guy. I'm looking for big time 
reliable. It's back to our point about 
Reliability, strength, skill in tough jobs sometimes is 
almost more important than area knowledge — ideally 
both. But^^^^^^^^^^^said to me, or I heard he said to 
somebody, you know, I have met a lot of crooks, and I 
don't know many Iranians, but this guy's crazy. 

Q Did^^^^^^tell you that Ghorbanifar had told 
him that he had been involved in the earlier arms 
transactions from Israel to Iran? 

A I don't remember that. But if he tolc 
I'm sure^^^^^ftold me because I'm sure^^^Hwould tell 
me whatever he was told. 

Q What happened next? 

A I went to Bill Casey and said Bill, the guy is 
really no good. In the meantime, Ghorbanifar at some 
point — and again my time frame is all screwed up — 
Ghorbanifar produced t he most amazing set of photographs 
I have ever seen. 





And Ghorbanifar produced these color 

UlfCtASSIFfED 



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UN€LASmED 



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1 photographs^ 
2 

3 How would he ever have this? All right, then that 

4 happened (indicating). Over on this side (indicating), 

5 Ghorbanifar shows nothing but deception on his polygraph, 

6 has a record longer than my arm of being unreliable, and 

7 my best operators tell me that he's a crook. 

8 So at some point somehow I went to Bill Casey 

9 and said, Bill^ old pal, this isn't really worth it. And 

10 Bill said, I am told, I think, something to the effect, 

11 well, let us at least follow up on the terrorism side. 

12 We'll have Charlie Allen talk to him. 

13 Q That's what Casey told you? 

14 A (Nods in the affirmative.) 

15 Q You have to answer on the record. 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q What did you do then, after that meeting with 

18 Casey? 

19 A Well, you know, Paul, I mean, what did I do, 

20 day by day, I don't know, but I watched Charlie Allen go 

21 through, and I must take credit for having really screwed 

22 it up at this point. I did. I let Charlie Allen sort of 

23 go off and meet with Ghorbanifar, and I should have 

24 stormed into Casey's office and said. Bill, take it. I 

25 know a lot of people in town think I may be a wimp or I'm 



UNCtASStPtEB 



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UHCkftSSlf^ 



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1 not adventurous, but you can't do this. 

2 But Charlie Allen went off to Europe, to 

3 London, and whereall — Charlie knows and I don't, and 

4 I'm sure he has a record of it — and met with 

5 Ghorbanifar. 

6 Q This is after the polygraph? 

7 A Yeah, and again these times are a matter of 

8 record. I don't have the record in front of me. 

9 Q Well, at some point a decision was made to 

10 have Ghorbanifar polygraphed? 

11 A Yeah. 

12 Q Who made the decision? 

13 A Me, I think. 

14 Q And we all know he failed the polygraph. 

15 A He showed deception on every question but one, 

16 which I think was his name. 

17 Q Did you tell Casey about the polygraph 

18 results? 

19 A Yes, yes. 

20 Q What did Casey say when you told him about the 

21 polygraph results? 

22 A All I can remember — and my mind has been 

23 jogged by others because I don't remember — it is that 

24 Casey, fascinated by the famous photogr aphs, which I can 

25 still see in front of me, 



108 



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106 



1 ^^^^^^^Hsaid let's let Charlie Allen talk to him 

2 about the counterterrorist problem, because at this point 

3 Charlie Allen is National Intelligence Officer for 

4 Counterterrorism. So Charlie can sit down and go over 

5 the photos. How did this happen? 

6 And we, we should have been braver. We turned 

7 this guy over to Charlie Allen. I should have said to 

8 Casey that's baloney. 

9 Q Didn't your people in fact get the message not 

10 to have anything further to do with Ghorbanifar? When I 

11 say your people, I mean the Operations people. 

12 A At this time? 

13 Q Ves. 

14 A I can't recall, but if there was, it wouldn't 

15 surprise me. 

16 Q Well, if I told you on January 14 a cable was 

17 sent out of^^^H^^^vof f ice saying no more contact with 

18 Ghorbanifar, is that consistent with your recollection? 

19 A With what I would have said to people? Yes. 

20 It's not very consistent with an agency policy that still 

21 has another guy from another Directorate dealing with 

22 him, and for that I take great blame. I should have 
2 3 fought harder. 

24 Q Did you know what contacts Allen was having 

25 with Ghorbanifar in January and February of '86? 



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1 A Well, he was on the phone. He was always sort 

2 of complaining that the guy was calling him in the 

3 office, that the guy was calling him at home. ^sort of 

4 derelict in my duty. I just let this thing run because I 

5 guess I thought I couldn't stop it, and when you think 

6 you couldn't stop something you now wonder historically 

7 yourself, personally did I try hard enough. But I thought 

8 it was, again, if you will excuse me, sort of an amateur 

9 hour activity — international phone calls, winging into 

10 London where the Brits are all over the place. It was 

11 not a professional intelligence job. 

12 But Charlie is not a professional Directorate 

13 of Operations officer. You couldn't expect anything 

14 else. 

15 Q Didn't he come for a while there and in effect 

16 act as Ghorbanifar 's case officer? 

17 A Well, that's what we're talking about, yes. 

18 Q And in hindsight you would say that is a 

19 ■ mistake? 

20 A In hindsight I say I should have gone to Bill 

21 Casey's office and screamed more. But we all know in 

22 hindsight what we should have done at different times, 
2 3 and maybe I wouldn't have won, because maybe Casey was 

24 convinced by Bud McFarlane and the Israelis. The Israelis 



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1 still love him. 

2 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K "^^^ think Ghorbanifar 

3 tremendous source and an important person, so it's 

4 perfectly possible that I would not have been able to 

5 change Casey's mind no matter how hard I fought. 

6 Q Let me read something that Clarridge told the 

7 Tower Board to you. He says: Now, with a lot of 

8 hindsight, I think the Director wanted to go on with this 

9 and if he had more support from down below he would have 

10 taken over the operation instead of just doing the 

11 logistics because his people in Operations did not want 

12 to deal with Ghorbanifar. 

13 A He, the Director, meaning William Casey? 

14 Q Yes. 

15 A Would have gone on with what? 

16 Q With this, I assume meaning the operation 

17 involving Ghorbanifar and the arms. 

18 A That we would have run it? 

19 Q That's right. 

20 A But because we said no, he just allowed it. 

21 Q To be an NSC operation, where CIA only 

22 provided logistical support. 

23 A I doubt it. This was going to be run by the 

24 NSC. They weren't going to turn it over to the Central 

25 Intelligence Agency. 



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1 Q Did you make it clear to Casey in January that 

2 you thought Ghorbanifar was unreliable and that it was a 

3 mistake to continue working with Ghorbanifar? 

4 A Yes. 

5 Q And, to your knowledge, is that why Casey 

6 chose to have Allen as the contact person for Ghorbanifar 

7 for the Agency? 

8 A Probably. And I deserve the hit. I mean, 

9 maybe I could have made the world a better place if I 

10 would have taken the damn thing and run with it. 

11 Q Did you ever try to persuade North that it was 

12 a mistake to continue dealing with Ghorbanifar? 

13 A I talked to a lot of people about Ghorbanifar. 

14 I think I talked to John Poindexter at one point. I 

15 think Ollie was there. I think I told Ledeen at a 

16 cocktail party once that we weren't convinced Ledeen 

17 really liked Ghorbanifar personally as a friend of his. 

18 I told everybody as honestly as I could 

19 without — I don't want to destroy Mr. Ghorbanifar — 

20 he's got his life. But I told him we could not, and 

21 maybe again, you know, Mr. Ghorbanifar got — maybe it 

22 would have been a smarter operation — Mr. Ghorbanifar got 

23 Bud McFarlane to Tehran. Mr. Ghorbanifar got some 

24 hostages released. Mr. Ghorbanifar didn't turn out to be 

25 a total phoney, but he is untrustworthy in our books and 



UNaASStFtiO 



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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



y 



that's why some people think we're not tough enough, and 
others think we should be tougher. 

MR. O'NEILL: What is your impression? 



Is it your impression that he was 
acting lor them? 

THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. 

MR. O'NEILL: What would you describegf his 
relationship with the Israelis as being? 

THE WITNESS: As an agent. 

MR. O'NEILL: ^^^^^^^^^B°^ ^^^ government 
of Israel? 

THE WITNESS: An agent of the government of 
Israel. 

MR. O'NEILL: Was that clear, do you think, at 
the time? Was it made clear to Mr. Casey at the time 
that you had these discussions with him or was that 
something that evolved later on? 

THE WITNESS: No, I never discussed that 
issue, and I think I learned more of it as the thing 
unwound, Michael. 

MR. O'NEILL: That is your conclusion now, as 
opposed to the one that you had then? 

THE WITNESS: That's my conclusion now. I 
mean, I cannot overemphasize my ea^l^^geclusions that 



113 



^ftOk^StFt^D 



111 



1 the Israelis played great roles in getting us into this, 

2 but that's no excuse. We are a major power. We are not 

3 to apologize because we follow close allies. This 

4 Ghorbanifar and the entire Iranian thing was very much 

5 part of the Israeli foreign policy plan, as I've 

6 discussed. 

7 I think Ghorbanifar was an agent of the 

8 government of Israel. I think Ghorbanifar was looked 

9 upon by David Kimche and Al Schwimmer as a very key 

-+k£.ij aye- 

10 player and Khashoggi and company — and Vtmix way out of 

11 my league when you start talking about that whole crowd. 

12 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

13 Q When did you learn that people on the NSC 

14 staff had a plan to sell U.S. arms to Iran to gain 

15 release of hostages? 

16 A On the Saturday morning the 18th of January, 

17 1986. 

18 Q Let me ask you about a couple of dates before 

19 then. North's calendar shows a meeting between you, 

20 North and Sporkin on January 13, 1986. 

21 A I don't recall it, although it could easily 

22 have happened. I would think I would recall. 

23 Q What would you be talking to him about? 

24 A Findings. As I understand it, Sporkin either 

25 drafted, or was involved in drafting this, so if Sporkin, 



.nvolved m drafting thi^ 



114 



^N@t#SSff?gk) 



112 



1 North and George were together in the middle of January 

2 if would be to discuss a finding. 

3 Q This is on the 13th, before the finding was 

4 signed. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Are you telling me now that you may have 

7 worked on the drafting of the finding with Sporkin and 

8 North? 

9 A I never worked on the drafting of a finding. 

10 I recall absolutely nothing. Your question was what 

11 would I have been doing with that crowd. Well, the only 

12 conceivable thing I could think I would have been doing 

13 would have been talking about findings. I didn't, so I 

14 don't know what the hell we talked about. I can't 

15 remember the meeting. 

16 Q So the only thing you can remember — 

17 A Paul, it is perfectly possible that my 

18 recollection is wrong, but I feel very strongly about it 

19 because it was a very odd finding -- as Michael's 

20 question, isn't it strange that the DDO himself is not 

21 involved in a finding, and the answer is yes. I was not 

22 involved in this finding, yet your question, what would I 

23 be doing with Sporkin and North, well, the only thing 

24 they had in common was this damn finding. 

25 Q If you had worked on this finding or discussed 



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1 this finding before it was signed, is it fair to say that 

2 you'd remember it now? 

3 A Yes, sir. 

4 Q And it's your testimony that you did not work 

5 in this finding before it was signed and you did not 

6 discuss this finding with anybody before it was signed 

7 because you were not aware of it; is that right? 

8 A To the best of my knowledge I was not aware of 

9 that finding before it was signed. 

10 Q And if you met with Ollie North and Stan 

11 Sporkin on January 13, 1986, the only reason that you can 

12 think of for such a meeting would be to discuss findings; 

13 isn't that right? 

14 A It's a strange trio. I mean, they would have 

15 very little in common as three except findings. 

16 Q But you can recall no meeting? 

17 A I can recall no meeting. 

18 Q North's calendar also shows a meeting with you 

19 on January 16, 1986, the day before the finding was 

20 signed. It just says your name on it. Do you recall 

21 meeting with North on the 16th before the finding was 

22 signed? 

23 A I easily could have me«€ with him but I don't 

24 recall it. Someone had to tell me what I was doing on 

25 the morning of the 18th of January 1986, being told by 



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1 Casey and/or McMahon to go to the White House. It was 

2 not a mystery why I was jgoing to the White House, because 

3 I took] 

4 If I were going to the White House without 

5 knowing what I was doing, I would have gone to the White 

6 House. So I knew, I guess — common sense dictates I 

7 knew that I was going to be shown this finding, a 

8 Finding, involving the Near East area. 

9 So, therefore, asking myself the question, who 

10 told me what it was I was going to go do that morning, . 

11 and I don't recall. 

12 Q Okay. Do you keep your calendars from 

13 previous years? 

14 A Yes. 

15 MR. BARBADORO: Can we please have copies of 

16 his calendar for January 1986? 

17 MR. PEARLINE: (Nods in the affirmative.) 

18 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

19 Q Well, me about the meeting on the 18th. You 

20 have made reference to it. Do you know why you were 

21 going to it? 

22 A I must know why I was going. I tookl 

23 ^^^^^^Band there was Stan Sporkin, the top lawyer, so I 

24 knew why I was going. 

25 Now did Casey call me that morning and say 



ifNOSirrfED 



J 



117 



UNetftSStFSED 



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1 this is it, or had I known for two weeks? I can't 

There was^^^^^^^^^H--^^^^^^^H was 

3 abroad with the Director, I think --who was Acting Chief 

4 of our Near East Division; Stan Sporkin who was the 

5 general counsel and myself. From the White House were 

6 John Poindexter, who by now had become the National 

7 Security Advisor; Oliver North, Staff member; and Dick 

8 Secord, who came in later and left earlier and was 

9 introduced as a consultant to the National Security 

10 Counsel to all of us. 

11 Those six I remember. There easily could have 

12 been others — not a lot; there might have been another 

13 staffer — we stood up and I was handed this finding by 

14 John Poindexter and I was told we were going to support 

15 it, and again the words I don't recall, about a National 

16 Security activity that was aimed at opening dialogue with 

17 Iran and releasing hostages. 

18 I asked very clearly the key question as I 

19 sort of read this and read this and I said, now, we are 

20 all aboard here from refraining from reporting this 

21 finding to Congress, and it was yes. It was my 

22 interpretation, as I was told that and read this, based 

23 on accumulated knowledge from the past fall and winter, 

24 that this was probably aimed at a quick fix to release 

25 the hostages, in which you would not inform Congress, ala 



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1 Hostage Rescue Mission 1979, and that somebody knew more 

2 than I knew. 

3 And then we sat at the table afterwards. I 

4 think John left, John Poindexter. And Secord, I think, 

5 left too. But Ollie and I and^^H sat for a while and we 

6 began to discuss what was going on, which was — and 

7 ^^^^^Bgood at this in memory and I'm not -- I mean only 

8 that he remembers it better, being more involved — that 

9 we discussed getting TOWs out of Alabama and shipping 

10 them ^°^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B putting them on planes and 

11 sending them to Israel for delivery to Iran, which 

12 further cemented in my mind the thought that we were 

13 going to get the hostages out. 

14 ^^^H and I left. ^^^Vwas instructed by me as 

15 my Acting Director, Acting Chief of the Near East 

16 Division, to carry on this support as directed by the 

17 President of the United States to the National Security 

18 Council. 

19 Q What was Secord 's role in the meeting? 

20 A Not a thing. He didn't say a word. I think - 

21 - no, it's too speculative. 

22 Q- Did anybody explain what he would be doing, what 

23 his role in this mission would be? 

24 A He was just produced inside the sanctum 

25 sanctorum of the White House. There are no greater bona 



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(^N@i^SffiEO 



117 



1 fides than to have the President's National Security 

2 Advisor introduce you around inside the President's 

3 situation room. There is little question that you know 

4 somebody somewhere. 

5 [Laughter. ] 

6 Q Was the operation described to you in any kind 

7 of detail? 

8 A No. It was sort of elementary. It was a 

9 logistics problem at that point. 

10 Q Was it made clear to you that your role was to 

11 be solely a logistics role? 

12 A We were going to work with Ollie North. 

13 Q Were you told that Ghorbanifar was going to be 

14 the intermediary? 

15 A I don't recall that. You know, I didn't sit 
down with^^^^^^^^^^^and^^^^^^^^^^ and go 

17 this by the hour to study what I'm ^ing say today. I 

18 sort of think we probably knew that, but I don't recall 

19 that exactly. 

20 Q After this meeting did you express your 

21 concerns about Secord to anybody? 

22 A We talked about this earlier. I expressed my 

23 concerns about Secord to everybody that would listen to 

24 me. I have no facts against Mr. Secord. I have no legal 

25 determination against Mr. Secord. I expressed my concern 



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1 to Mr. Poindexter, probably to Ollie, and to Bill Casey. 

2 I expressed my concern about trading for hostages to Bill 

3 Casey and to John Poindexter. 

4 As I told the Tower Commission, at no time was 

5 I not given permission to express my concern on decisions 

6 that were made. 

7 Q After January, how closely were you involved? 

8 A ^^^Hreported to me regularly in general sense. 

9 I was very much involved in the beginning witl- 

10 great concern that sort of the American side had no 

11 Americans. 

12 Q You brought George Cave into it? 

13 A I think I personally — But, you know, it was 

14 all agreed George Cave was probably as knowledgeable 

15 about Iran as any American today. And we said we have 

16 got to get somebody in there that at least speaks the 

17 language. I mean, we are dealing with Iranians, and were 

18 told there were going to be more Iranians, and I brought 

19 George in. The key question and the key answer I was 

20 informed over and over again by^^^H-- and the money 

21 problems. 

22 The money didn't show up, or only half the 

2 3 money showed up. And we couldn't ship the missiles, and 

24 ^^^Hwould come and report to me, and, as with! 

^^^^^^ as with^^^^^^^^^^V I have ovez^^^^^BAmericans, 



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and^^^^^^^^^^^^Hforeigners on my payroll, and I 

t ru s t^^^^^^^^ n d^^^^^^Ht o t a 11 y . 

it. I expect them to come to me when they are faced with 

a decision that is difficult, controversial. 

In a sort of silly way our role in the Iranian 
affair was elementary. It was sort of both logistical 
and interpretive. I think George played a bigger role 
than that when he later got in it because George did know 
a lot. 

I felt throughout the entire affair, Paul, 
that as with the Contra affair, that the White House was 
very witting of the legalities and illegalities of the 
roles that the CIA could play. And, God bless them, with 
all the problems we are all in, but they never — they 
tried very hard not to cross that border to get us 
involved in the illegal side of it, which was shipping 
arms to the Contras or hocus-pocusing the money with 
Iranian affair. 

And I never had any meetings — worry with 
j^^^^B.- because it was more complicated. Neither one of 
them ever came to me and said, Oh, my God, we are being 
asked to break the law. ^^^Bcame regularly to me, told 
me. There weren't that many meetings. There weren't 
that many things we did. The decision had been made. 

Ghorbanifar was the man. Then, of course, 



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come March, I'm beginning to doubt my own word. There 
are contacts, I'm told, with senior Iranians. They may 
invite a senior American to Tehran. I say to myself, 
this guy's not that bad. And Bud McFarlane goes to 
Tehran. It's easy for all the Americans to giggle and 
laugh, but that was — and second guess -- but that was 
an opportunity that many people thought would change the 
power balance in a critical part of the world. 

And Mr. Ghorbanifar had done it, together with 
the Israelis. And I thought, Jesus, these guys are doing 
better. But, the question the press asked, the money — 
where was it going, who did it.^^^Vdid his thing, and 
our finance guys did their thing. And I was told what 
the Operations Directorate was doing. 

And at no time — which maybe I should have — 
did I dash into the Director's office and say, hey Bill, 
we have got to stop all this stuff. 

BY MR. O'NEILL: At this point, you are, as 
■ you say, receiving reports from^^^^^^^^^H about 
whatever he thinks is relevant for you to know. But what 
stands out, you say, is money problems. Money doesn't 
arrive. There is not enough money. 
A Yes. 




at there are money 



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problems on the other side -- that is to say, the 
Iranians are complaining bitterly about the price of 
weapons? 

A I didn't. And I can't believe I would have 
known that and I would have forgotten. 




I now, as I said to the SSCI — but again how 
smart we are after the fact — that the minute — in 
order to run it without Congressional approval, and to 
run an operation in which the goods cannot be paid for 
until they are delivered, you have to seek money, and 
they ended up right in the middle of the worst money 
changers in the European continent. 

And I sort of knew that in the fall. But I 
dismissed it in the spring and summer, particularly the 
spring when it first started happening. 

Q Could anybody else in your office have 
"followed this beside yourself? 

Dunn.. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
Iwhen Juchniewicz retired, Bert came up to be the 
AD DO. 

Q Would he have read this| 
A I'm sure it was made available to him. 
Whether he read it or not, I don't know. 




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1 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

2 Q Did George Cave or anybody else ever come to 

3 you and say, we've got a problem here with the security 

4 of this operation because Ghorbanifar says he's not being 

5 paid? 

6 A No. To my recollection, if George said he 

7 did, I'd believe George. But I believe that if that 

8 would have happened bells would have gone off in my head. 

9 Q What role did you play in preparing the 
10 Director for his testimony in November of '86? 

A In November told ^^^^^^^^^^^^V who has 

12 been my staff aide for three years, that what he was to 

13 do was to put together the absolute facts of the 

14 Director's involvement, which are a matter of record — X 

15 meeting, X shipment there, X dollars here — if we've got 

16 that record, or get it from finance. 

17 And that was oqt^ job. Then^^^Hwas to take 

18 that finished piece of DDO input and hand it to Jim 

19 McCoullough, who was Bob Gate's Special Assistant, who 

2 was then going to put the Agency's thing — because, of 

21 course, Charlie Allen is not in the Directorate of 

22 Operations and has certain knowledge of this affair — we 

23 don't. 

24 And we put down our chronology and our facts 

25 and we found at the time, as you may have already heard. 



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1 sort of poor Ollie didn't seem to have his facts. I 

2 don't think Ollie was fudging his facts, but Ollie didn't 

3 seem to have a record of what dates all this took place. 

4 And there was some debate at a meeting I didn't attend — 

5 I think Bert attended with Ollie about when did you meet 

6 and why did you meet and where did you meet. But that 

7 was the limit of w hat our input wa s to be. 

8 I think^^^^^^^^^^^^Bput our statement down 

9 and then gave it to Jim. Jim added the rest of it and 

10 gave it to the Director and the Director, as was his wont 

11 was very, very editorialist in what he spoke. He made 

12 changes and added and subtracted. 

13 Q Do you remember the controversy about no USG 

14 involvement in November of 1985 in the arms, in the 

15 November 1985 arms shipment, in his testimony? Do you 

16 remember that debate within the Administration about 

17 that? 

18 A No. The debate I remember was he kept putting 

19 ■ poor John McMahon's name in it as having agreed to the 
2 November flight, and John didn't, and everybody kept 

21 screaming at everybody. I don't remember that 

22 controversy. 

23 Q Do you remember meeting with Ollie North on 

24 November 19, 1986? 

25 A I met Ollie North the last time before Ollie 's 



uNrasmiEB 



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1 troubles in the White House situation room. Excuse me, 

2 in John Poindexter's office. 

3 Q What happened at that time? 

4 A And I was in there to discuss — I'm trying to 

5 get it straight -- I was in there that day or the day 
before to discuss^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V which 

7 was going down to talk to somebody in the White House, 

8 and Ollie came to a meeting in Poindexter's office. I 

9 think that was the last time I saw Ollie. I don't know. 

10 I'll look. I'll try to recollect. I don't 

11 know what we were talking about. 

12 Q It didn't have anything to do with the Iran 

13 arms transaction? 

14 A Well, it may have. I don't know what it had 

15 to do with. I think it had to do with this chronology, 

16 that our chronology and his chronology didn't fit. It's 

17 coming, it's coming back from out of the dark. 

18 Q And what was said about those conflicting 

19 chronologies? 

20 A Ollie North knew he couldn't fight us. You 

21 are fighting a system that lives on record. Yeah, the 

22 record may get screwed up from time to time, but you are 

23 dealing with an organization that keeps absolute records 

24 of what it's up to. 

25 And Ollie North, God bless him, doing fifty 



UNCtlWfiD 



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|i)HCli^^^°^^^ 



1 different things, could not keep records like this. And 

2 we were saying, but there was a meeting in February, and 

3 then there was a meeting on the 2nd of March. And Ollie 

4 was saying, I don't know that. And we kept saying — I 

5 don't know who was with me; maybe I was alone — but I 

6 said, John, you can't fight this. I mean, this is the 

7 facts of the matter. Ollie 's got to go back to the 

8 drawing board and figure out why his dates don't match 

9 ours. 

10 Q Do you remember what you were fighting about, 

11 what the specific conflicts were? 

12 A No I don't. I really don't. 

13 Q Do you remember who asked for the meeting — 

14 you or Ollie? 

15 A Well, I suppose we did, because we were very 

16 anxious, watching this thing go public, and this is 

17 before Meese's announcement about the money -- the 

18 diversion. It is at this point a political humiliation. 

19 Superficially it is a political humiliation. So we are 

20 trying to be helpful in getting the record straight so 

21 that when the record is presented, it is presented 

22 correctly. 

2 3 We probably asked, because we probably found 

24 that the National Security — I think we found — memory 

25 — the National Security Council record did not jibe with 



UNCLASSfFSIED 



128 



UltOtA^Sli^D 



126 



1 ours, and we wanted to make sure everybody sat down in 

2 the presence of some important figure like John 

3 Poindexter and get this straight. 

4 Q Do you then recall this meeting with Ollie 

5 being also with Poindexter? 

6 A If it's the meeting I'm thinking about — and 

7 I would have to check — it's at that time frame. What 

8 was the date again? 

9 Q 11-19-86 at 4:00. 

10 A That would have been it, probably. I can 

11 check my records. Would you make note of that, please? 

12 Q North's records shows the meeting was with 

13 Gates and you. And it says DCI preparation underneath 

14 it. 

15 A That was probably it. 

16 Q Do you recall Gates being at the meeting? 

17 A No, I do not. 

18 Q When was the last time you spoke with North? 

19 A I spoke to North on the phone a couple of 

20 times about that period. I met North in that office at 

21 that meeting. I called North on the phone in November 

22 and told him that I was about to brief the SSCI staffers 

23 on our knowledge of the Iranian affair. Because that was 

24 the first — correct me — but if I recall, that was the 

25 first — as informal as it was; it was in an office in 



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UNOi^SStFIED 



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1 the CIA building — that was the first briefing of a 

2 Congress in any depth, and it was really an elementary 

3 briefing. 

4 Dan Finn was there, and other guys, so I mean 

5 it's all record. And I called Ollie and told him that we 

6 were going to be doing this. 

7 Q Did you ever speak to Ollie after November 25, 

8 the day he left the NSC? 

9 A No, never. Never since. 

10 Q Have you ever talked to the Director about the 

11 Iran arms deal, and the supposed diversion of funds to 

12 the Contras? 

13 A William J. Casey? 

14 Q Yes, after November 25? That's the date that 

15 the Attorney General made his announcement about the 

16 diversion? 

17 A No. 

18 Q You've never discussed the diversion? 

19 A Wait a minute. Wait a minute. 

20 (Pause.) 

21 No, I didn't. 

22 Q You never discussed the diversion issue with 

23 the Director? 

24 A It's all very complicated. Meese announced 

25 this on the 25th. I went to the hospital on the 4th of 



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1 December. I was in the hospital for two weeks. When I 

2 got out of the hospital, Bill Casey was in the hospital, 

3 and I have never seen Bill Casey since late November. 

4 Now if I went in there in late November and 

5 sort of said, Holy cats — I mean, I saw Bill Casey all 

6 the time — and said, holy cats Bill, what do you think 

7 of this? I certainly didn't sit down and say, now let's 

8 have a long conversation about the diversion of funds. 

9 Q When did you first hear the possibility that 

10 funds had been diverted from the Iran arms sale to the 

11 Contras? 

12 A When Meese announced it, or that day. 

13 Q You never heard anybody discuss that 

14 possibility at this Agency prior to that time? 

15 A I keep feeling I'm not part of the crowd if I 

16 say I didn't. 

17 (Laughter.) 

18 It makes you look unimportant. I can't 

19 remember. I don't think anyone did. 

20 Q That's all I have. There may be a few 

21 questions. 

22 MR. WEISS: I have just a couple. 

23 EXAMINATION 

24 BY MR. WEISS: 

25 Q If we could go back to the early part of 1985. 



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A 


'85? 


Q 


Yes. 


A 


Okay 



Q Say, from January to June, in that period, and 
I don't have any desire to go into at all your sources or 
methods. 





I don't believe anything Ghorbanifar says 

Well, I'm not 

trying to be wise. I don't believe anything Ghorbanifar 
says even though the son-of-a-bitch got us all the way to 
Tehran, because he fabricates, exaggerates, changes, 
fixes it to meet his own needs. 

So, therefore, I have to, as an intelligence 
officer, say that Mr. Ghorbanifar 's intelli gence is 
useless. 




yNCLASSl?:33 



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UNCLASSIFIED 

TOP SECRET/CODEWORD 




Now, 



I could jump again and go to Bill 



Q 
Buckley. 

A Please. 

Q There have been reports that the Director, Mr. 
Casey, had turned the joint upside down in attempting to 



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1 do something about Bill Buckley. Would you say that was 

2 an accurate description? 

3 A No. Bill Casey cared. Bill Casey was a 

4 professional intelligence officer. Bill Casey had lived 

5 through a war. Bill Casey understood the price of what 

6 we do. He had great feeling for our business. Bill 

7 Casey would have done anything he could do legally to get 

8 Buckley out of there. But no, he didn't turn the place 

9 upside down. 

10 I would say if there was any single person 

11 extremely emotionally involved in the Buckley affair, it 
was me. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

13 Casey said, well, we are going to do everything we can to 

14 get the guy, and let's work our ass off, as any good 

15 leader should, but that newspaper report that the whole 

16 place was going crazy is not true. 

17 MR. WEISS: That is all I have, Paul. 

18 MR. O'NEILL: I have a few. 

19 BY MR. O'NEILL: (Resuming) 

20 Q Clair, going back to early 1985 — 

21 A You like that date. At least it's not '84. 

22 Q Well, I'll go back to '84. 
2 3 (Laughter.) 

24 In February, 1985, were you aware of Singlaub 

approachinc^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hin Washington and 



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imct 

soliciting their assistanc 
or whatever term you use? 



MStgED^"' 



A No. That's the Namimbo affair. No. I don't 
remember. I remember Ollie North calling me all the time 
about that ship. It was driving Ollie North crazy. And 
Ollie North wanted to know what we were going to do about 
it. It was going to load. It was a Nicaraguan flag ship 
going to load in North Korea full of North Korean and 




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UMCLASSJFl 




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^ow whether Singlaub was out trying to 
sink the Namimbo or not, God save America. 

MR. BARBADORO: Did the arms ever get there, 
to Nicaragua? 

THE WITNESS: I do not know. I'm not exf 
sure the arms were even put on the Namimbo. 





BY MR. O'NEILL: (Resuming) 

Q At the time that this project of Ollie's was 
being floated about, were you also aware — 

A What project. Is there an Ollie project? 

Q This is a project to somehow prevent the 
Namimbo from delivering its shipment. 

A The project to me was only what are we going 
to do about this? There was no project. 

Q At the time that he had this concern, let's do 
something about the Namimbo, were you also aware of any 
involvement either he or Singlaub had in approaching the 
Ito assist in something like this? 




lie says that I introduced him to a 



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Q So you never heard of — 

A Singlaub approaching — 

Q The approach that he Bade? 

A I've never met Singlaub, nor have I ever 
agreed to — I mean I read it in the papers — 
knowledgeable of, involved with General Singlaub. 

Q What about Ollie North doing the sane kind of 
thing, approach ing^^^^^^^^^^^^^H invoking your 
seeking funds for the contras? 

A I would never have said to Ollie North — I 
would simply not let that happen. The CIA cannot use its 
name to seek funds for the Contras. Now Ollie North, God 
bless him, could have used my name. It's been used more 
than once. But, no, I didn't say use my name with! 





Q Moving on just a little bit into '85, there is 

a depot, an ammunition depot in Managua, which was blown 



tfWettSSfPED 



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1 up at that part of the year. Do you recall this event? 

2 A I think, if you keep going, I'm going to 

3 recall it, but not recall anything about it. We are 

4 accused of doing something. 

5 Q I don't know about that. 

6 A Okay. Go ahead. Please tell me. 

7 Q Do you have any knowledge of someone by the 

8 name of David Walker, a British — an ex-SAS officer, a 

9 British citizen? 

10 A None at all. Never heard of him. 

11 Q Or of any connection he may have had with 

12 North? 

13 A With North? No I don't. 

14 Q Or with this event, the destruction of this 

15 aoaunition depot at Managua? 

16 A No, I don't. That is a story I do not know. 

17 Q You mentioned at one point earlier on that 

18 Ollie was involved in getting boats and planes. Could 

19 you elaborate on that? I think you were speaking of it 

20 in terms of in the context of hostage rescue. 

21 A Yeah. I guess what I was really talking about 

22 was, Ollie was forever chasing the Air Force and the 

23 Navy. Could they get a boat off-shore, or endless 

24 schemes that the people who were going to bring the 

25 hostages out were going bring them out on boats, and 



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Q Do you recall being approached by North about 
using a vessel that he had the disposal of? 

A Oh, God. Forever, and ever and ever.j 




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And Ollie wanted either to sell it to me, 
rent it me, lease it to me. We didn't want Ollie's ship. 
God bless him, but I didn't want Ollie's ship. 

Q What did you understand about this ship other 
than that it was offered to you? 

A That he had it and he could get it for you 
wholesale. 

(Laughter. ) 

Q Did you have the sense, or did he say that it 
would be used for other purposes, like support of the 
Contras? 

A W« all now know he was shipping arms around in 
it. And I think we suspected at that time he was 
shipping ams around in it, and we wanted nothing to do 
with it. 

Q Do you recall having conversations with 
anybody at the Aj||^v abfly^t, ;.tl. .■...>»■ 



140 



UMCtA^SfffED 



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Just^^^^^^B and thin)^H^^^Hwas 

2 Chief of NE. But I'm saying we don't want that damn 

3 ship. I don't care what the price is. It ain't right. 

4 MR. BARBADORO: Did you know that Secord and 

5 Clines were connected to that ship? 

6 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. I know now. 

7 MR. BARBADORO: How did you think Ollie North 

8 happened to have a ship under his control? 

9 THE WITNESS: Paul, I didn't ask. It was like 

10 — what^s good about us is what's bad about us. We 

11 didn't get involved. Our hands are clean. But should we 

12 have asked more questions? That's for the historians to 

13 wonder. 

14 BY MR. O'NEILL: (Resuming) 

15 Q Okay, now we'll go back to 1984. 

16 (Laughter.) 

17 A You were moving the other direction, Michael. 

18 Q In the spring of that year — you'll remember 

19 this I'm sure, very well — there was a bombing in 

20 Beirut, outside the headquarters of Sheik Fadahlala and 

21 people were killed. 

22 A Sheik Fadahlala. You remember my 20 hours of 

23 testimony before the HPSCI on that subject. 

24 Q Recalling that event and what you know about 

25 it — and I know you've spent a lot of time looking at 



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what led up to that bombing — did you see or did you 
detect any involvement by N orth in any of thos e events? 
A No. 




It appeared in the 

Washington Post with accusations that the bomb that went 
off at Sheik Fadahlala's residence which killed about 70 
people was our fault. The guilt was by association. 




Q I don't mean by way of suggestion that he had 
anything to do with it. I meant did his name crop up in 
any discussions? 

remember Ollie North's name even on the edges of^ it. 

Q This is at a time when he would have had 
responsibility for hostage rescue and at a time when, I 
believe, there were U.S. hostages. 

A Oh, there were. Yeah. Absolutely. 

Q What about his relationship, if he had any, if 
you are aware of it, to any of the people with whom you 



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Q You were saying earlier that in Central 
America you would sometimes run into things that North 
was doing where the Agency also was operating. Would 
that be the case in Lebanon at all? 

A I never saw his footprints in Lebanon, 
Michael, in the sense of being in Lebanon dealing with 
the Government, whatever God knows that is. 

Q There is a mystifying reference in the Tower 
Board Report, which is, of course, derived from a PROF 
note. It is written by North and he refers tc 



Well, that's the famous Secor 




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Q Right. What do you know about that? 

A That's another plan. It's und«r th« big plan 
rubric. I don't know anything. I read that^. I mean, I 
didn't read the PROF note. I heard about it. It was 
that Secord was going tc 





It all fits under the big plan that didn't take place. 

Q How would Secord — 

A The same way that he could get airplanes when 
we couldn't. Remember that one. The CIA can't get an 
airplane. Sec ord can get an airplane. Secord can get a 
ship. Can't^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^HSecord 

Q Is your knowledge about this after the fact of 
the PROF note or — 

A I never heard of any of this stuff till these 
PROF notes appeared, and they make me giggle a little 
bit. Everybody is going to be smarter than the CIA. 

Q Is it possible that there was an Israeli 
connection here? 

A Could easily be. 

Secord must have had good contacts 
somewhere in Israel. It was Israel Secord was staging it 
to in order to deliver the arms. And they were flying 
them to Tehran. So I suspect, guessing, Secord would 




UffCtftSStFtED 



144 



UNCktSSmED 



142 



1 

2 
3 
4 

5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



have good Israeli connections. 

But we did not run across then at any tim*. 

the world is awful, and it's the real world, and I hava 
never run across North or any of his compatriots on th« 
ground doing something. 

Q The last subject, and this would call for your 
speculation, but you were talking about the statement 
that McMahon made to you when he said that, I've been 
told by Bud McFarlane that the Israelis don't want th« 
CIA involved. 

A No, this is Casey who made this to m«. 

Q I'm sorry. I thought you said McMahon mad* it 
to you in Casey's office. 

A No. Casey said to me, guess what Bud told ■•? 

Q Okay. All right. So the statement's a«d« to 




A Yes. 

Q And you speculated that it was because — if 
it was an Israeli concern, if I understood you corractly, 
that would be because they were afraid that CIA would 
have to tell the Congress. And then later on you 
referred to the fact that because you had seen the PROF 



UN€kA^IF4iD 



145 



UNCEnSSmED 



143 



1 notes that North didn't think much of the delays that h« 

2 thought were inherent in any CIA activity. As you say, 

3 it took you a long time to get a plane that Dick Secord 

4 could get in 24 hours. 

5 A I'm not sure he ever got it, but that was the 

6 interpretation. 

7 Q What do you think about that? First of all, 

8 do you think that it really was an Israeli objection, or 

9 do you think that was really something that was invented 

10 at the White House. 

11 A Every Administration in this country has 

12 finally run either big and terrible, or small and 

13 unsuccessful, covert actions out of the White House. 

14 Every Administration finally decides that its spy service 

15 just can't do it, and whether it's under Carter with poor 

16 Hamilton Jordan wandering around in a red wig trying to 

17 free the hostages, or whether it's under Reagan trying to 

18 sell arms to Iran. 

19 Finally, there is some guy in the National 

20 Security Council says, who formed that really stupid spy 

21 service we have? Let's get a good one. Let's set it up 

22 ourselves. And I suspect, having watched the Israeli 

23 side of this with Mr. Nir and Mr. Kimche and Mr. 

24 Schwinuner, that th« same thing came true, that we just, 

25 this is just too important her^ JJUAiif Iran. We are 



13 




146 



UNGLA^IFtE^ 



144 




1 going to open a dialogue. We going to get ams, and we 

2 are going to release hostages. So we are all going to 

3 set up a private little o peration. 
4 
5 
6 
7 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■lom remembers the guys 

9 the Agency who are always going to set up their own 

10 private intelligence service. It's going to work better. 

11 They want to set up something of their own so they can 

12 really get it done. 

13 And I think the stars came together, and the 

14 Israelis and the Americans found each other, and this is 

15 what we see out of it. And that is all speculation, 

16 totally. 

17 MR. O'NEILL: I understand. 

18 BY MR. BARBADORO: (Resuming) 

19 . Q Two quick areas, having gone over my notes. 

20 The Director's calendar showed that he met 

21 twice with Secord. Did you know about meetings he had? 

22 A I did not know that. I never knew that. 

23 Q The second thing was, Ollie North went around 

24 telling several people in the CIA, or asking several 

25 people in the CIA in the late summer of 1986 if they 



UN€LASW1iD 



147 



UNekASSIfXD 



145 



1 would ba willing to buy certain asset* that h* had in 

2 place in Central America. 

3 A He asked ne. He called me, told me about all 

4 his airplanes, would I please buy them. 

5 Q What did he tell you about the airplanes? 

6 A He said they were a good buy, 

7 (Laughter.) 

8 Q Did he tell you exactly what he was selling? 

9 A They were the airplanes that he and the 

10 private benefactors are using. The Congress has given us 

11 money again. He's getting out of it. Now what do we do 

12 with our $3 million worth of aircraft. Let's call Clair 

13 and see if we can sell them. What was the answer? It's 

14 like Ollie North's boat. 

15 Q Did he tell you who owned the airplanes? 

16 A Nor did 1 ask. 

17 Q And did he tell you how much he wanted for 

18 them? 

19 . A I think he actually did, and I didn't write it 

20 down because I was too polite to want to say, Ollie, the 

21 answer is going to be no. And I listened carefully. And 

22 I think I probably called him back and said, Ollie, I've 

23 given really serious consideration to this offer. 

24 It's like an unknown, very senior government 

25 official who called me just recently and said, Felix 



UNCtftSSH^D 



148 



bKCUlSSMt) 



146 



1 Rodriguez doesn't have a job. I'd like you to hire him 

2 back again. You know, the phone calls I get would drop a 

3 horse, for Christ's sake. 

4 (Laughter.) 

5 But the answer is you have got to listen to 

6 people. 

7 Q I'll remember that. 

8 A Next time you call. 

9 (Laughter.) 

10 ' Yeah, he had planes, and this and that. And 

11 they were all great, and they were Cassa 9950s. And they 

12 all flew upside down. And they were th« only ones left 

13 that worked. 

14 M^^^^^^^ ^^^ ^^ ^^y ^° sell you an airstrip] 

15 ^^^^^^^^^ 

16 ^^^^^^^ A No, he didn't try to sell me the airstrip] 

18 - Q Did he mention the ship again, that he wanted 

19 to sell you the ship? 

20 A Never mentioned the ship. This was all ground 

21 stuff — well, air stuff and ground stuff that he'd 

22 gotten, weapons? 

23 Q Did I have the time period right? It was in 

24 the summer of '86? 

25 A Oh, I don't think he called me until Congress 




URCtftSSH^O 



149 



UNCmStmD 



147 



1 voted. I think it was sort of in the bag that he was 

2 getting — you know all the time, Ollie North sat around 

3 saying, I have got to get out of this thing, I have got 

4 to get out of this thing. And I kept saying, I don't 

5 want to hear about it. God bless him, and I think it 

6 comes over in the PROF notes, where he says, you know, 

7 Jesus, one poor Lieutenant Colonel trying to run the 

8 world. 

9 Ollie didn't try to sell me the equipment 

10 until Oll'ie knew that Congress had voted us, or was sure 

11 the vote was going to be, that we were going to get back 

12 into it. 

13 Q Did Ollie ever tell you things that weren't 

14 true? 

15 A Yes — for instance, his endless conversations 

16 with the President, and other such minor details. 

17 Q Did he frequently exaggerate? 

18 A Sure, he did. He was all alone. Look, it was 

19 grossly unfair to Oliver North to be asked what he was 

20 asked to do. I swear to God there had to be a meeting 

21 somewhere with the senior people in this government in 

2 2 which they decided they were going to provide private aid 

2 3 to the Contras. And Michael knows the emotions of this 

24 issue. 
2 5 Somebody said, all right, we'll show the 



UNCLRSStF^ID 



150 



UN(H.ft^l^l£D 



148 



1 Congress. We'll get private aid. Which sort of sounds 

2 superficially, fine, all right, get private aid. But 

3 what did they do? They turned to Ollie North. They said 

4 take care of that. The enormity of what they asked this 

5 kid to do is unbelievable. You don't just get some money 

6 and put it in a box. 

7 You've got to transfer it out of the country. 

8 You've got to transfer it to somebody. You've got to buy 

9 arms. You've got to ship them. You've got to get 

10 planes. You've got to get boats. You've got to make 

11 contacts^^^^^^^^^^ wherever it is where the arms are 

12 going. 

13 Oliver North was asked to do the impossible. 

14 And who the hell — 

15 Q Who asked him? 

16 A I assume th« Administration asked him. Who 

17 else would have asksd him? Now whether Ronald Reagan, 

18 said "pal" or Bill Casey said "buddy" or George Shultz 

19 .said "you're going to save the country," I don't know. 

20 Q Do you know whether Bill Casey ever asked him 

21 to do this? 

22 A Z do not know that at all. 

23 Q You know he talked to Casey — 

24 A Casey loved him. 

25 Q — all the time. They had a close 



UN€LftSSlFt£3 



151 



UNCLASSIFIED 



149 



1 relationship. 

2 A They were close friends. 

3 Q He would go over to Casey's house, right? 

4 A Well, I do not know that. 

5 Q They'd meet for breakfast; do you know that? 

6 A I do not know that. 

7 Q They talked to each other on the phone a lot. 

8 A Their goals were that there's a serious 

9 Marxist-Leninist threat in Central America. All of that 

10 aside, and Casey, God bless him, kept me out of that part 

11 of his life. That said, Oliver North was asked to do the 

12 impossible. And so who did Oliver North end up with? 

13 Oliver North ended up with some pretty tricky guys. 

14 I'm not here to defend Ollie North. I'm not 

15 here to attack Ollie North. But if you look at it 

16 historically, what the hell he was asked to do is not 

17 next to impossible; it was impossible. 

18 Q Do you think he was emotionally unstable? 

19 A I -- 

2 Q Here is a guy, he exaggerates, he lies to you, 

21 I mean — 

22 A No, I don't. I think — look, he had to run 

23 this whole thing with a gum band and some balsa wood. 

24 And in order to get it done, you've got to do some slight 

25 exaggeration. So Ollie would say, Clair George says this 



UNClVSSntED 



152 



uwctirssTnED 



150 



1 is fine, the President told me that. I don't think that 

2 reflects — yeah, I mean if we were all Jesuits it would 

3 be sort of difficult to understand. 

4 But on the other hand, if you are operating in 

5 Washington and trying to do what he was trying to do, a 

6 certain amount of exaggeration is to be expected. 

7 Unfortunately, when it ends up like this, that it's on 

8 record, and you know, I met Mike, and Mike says, I never 

9 saw him, it's sad. 

10 But I saw no instability. If anything else, 

11 he was a work fanatic who virtually killed himself to 

12 achieve what he perceived to be — I guess he perceived 

13 to be — the President's goals. 

14 MR. MOFFETT: Off the record just a minute. 

15 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

16 MR. BARBAOORO: Back on the record. 

17 THE WITNESS: To clarify the record, the 

18 meeting where I was told the Israelis have Iranian 

19 contacts which they are prepared to share with the 

20 Axericans, which could lead to the release of the 

21 hostages, that remark was made in the late siumer, early 

22 fall of 1985 by Bill Casey in Bill Casey's office to b* 

23 and to somebody else. 

24 MR. BARBAOORO: Thank you very Buch. 

25 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 



i Li 



fB 



1 



4 



153 



imctnssfFitD 

(Whereupon, at 5:11 p.m., the taking of th« 
2 instant deposition ceased.) 
3 



Signature of the Witness 



5 Sub«crib«d and Sworn to b«fore me this 

* °' , 1987. 

7 

Q 

Notary Public 
9 My Commission Expires: 



day 



UNaBW?!D 



154 



UNCLASSIFIED 



1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 

17 

Notary Public in and for the 
■•• State of Maryland. 

19 

1 
20 My Commission expires i/'.. -,-. ' ^-^^y . 

21 
22 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 

I, ANNE PELLECCHIA HOROWITZ, the officer 
before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby 
certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the 
testimony was taken by me by Stenomask and thereafter 
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of 
the parties to the action in which this deposition was 
taken; and further, that I am not a relative or employee 
of any attorney or counsel employed by the parties 
thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in 
the outcome of the action. 






UNCLASSIFIED 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20FST.. N.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20001 (2021 628-9300 




Parlially Declassified/Released onJOhC^Bo 8 

under previsions dt c 12356 V • 

by K Jchnson. National Secuiity Council 



156 



SUBJECT 



INFORMATION CONT?,0 



r\-.« ^ LA * Pj^ _ , 





xvc -CmJ^ 



OF 



r2,VLEp, BY PRIGINATOR--FG: 

KAJlKIhlG MOTICE 
ENCE SOURCES OR METHODS INVOLVED 



t to the President for 
1- Security Affairs 



purchase of Arns^^^HESH ^<^^ Shipment to 
on Behalf of the C.I. A. 



C 2^h^ 



THIS IS AK INFORMATION REPORT, NOT FINALLY EVALUATED INTELLIGENCE 




Secor lieavily isplied that he was making the purchases for the 
Central Intelligence Agency. 




arms exporting 

organization, thatlHpm|^|a policy prohibiting arms exports to 
any Cent^^^Ame^can country. The "Transamer ica" representat ive 

obtained ^^^^^^^Bend-user certificat es, wh ich the 

accept ed . ^^^^I^^I^I^^^IHHHHHH^im^^^^^l^^^^H^^^^^^ris t 
the arms wereairshippedtoj||^B||^^inlate January B^^^^Eunds 
for this purchase came from either the Bahamas or Cay^^^^^^^^s . 



DECL: OADR DRV HUM 4-8 2 BY 

CLASSIFICATION AND COi: 



ALL PORTIOI 
JF OVER ALLi 



Panijlly Declassified/Reieasea nn_tijF6e t% 

under orovisions ot E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



mmm 



.5501 



;' !r=^-l:rjl5f 5^ 



157 



IWtlASSIFIED 



2769 



WARNING NOTICE 
■^CE SOURCES OR METHODS INVOLVED 




5- (Headquarters CoBment- tvi« ^>»«._.i -r .. > , , 




.i^. 



Clair EgtG^orge 
Deputy DirectoiSiJa Operations 



M 



jor 




OMCUSSlflEB 




SSyX 



^ 



158 



UiJ^SSIFIED 



\ f~ N«tien«l Security Council 



Tht Whitt HouM 



%Y%t*m§ 



N 7417 

Sf QUI NCI TO HAS Sf IN WSMSITION 



faul Thofltpten 
■ob Kimmirt 
John Mndcxtar 
TomSltull 
WilmaHall 
•ud M<Far1an« 
•eb Kimmitt 
NSC S«crtt«ri«t 

Situation AoO'^ 



t 



w_ 



1^ 



.^ 



n 



z 



3 



Parliail/ Declassitiea/Releasea on_lfirtf«_fig 

under provisions ot £ 12555 
by K. Johnson, r^aticnal Secaiiy Council 



55^ 



lainfetinitien *• Action IsHttiin OaOiiflbtcA N > Me fvttxf *<t>e 



iiabtcA 



cc: Vf MMst lakar Oaavcr Other . 



COMMINTS 

/7 



Should ba taan by: 



(Oatt/Tima) 











^'S-*'^^ A.»<. 






.251^ 



^ 



159 



I 

X 

I 



ROUTING 



a. 



Nam* and Addrtit ' 0«t* 



RobTt McFarlane 



"^N^^tHEir 



SECRET SENSITIVE 




^ 



I^ 



3^ 



ACTION 



APPROVAL 



COMMENT 



CONCUMHENCE 



DIRECT REPLY 



OrtPATCH 



FILE 



INFORMATION 



PREPARE REPLV 



RECOMMENDATION 



RETURN 



SIGNATURE 



REMARKS 

cc: Olivar North (•2 and 3) 



EYES ONLY 
N 741S 



NSC/ICS CONTROL NO <00587 

COPY NO / OF 



HANDLE VIA SYSTEM IV CHANNEL ONLY 



EYES ONLY 






! 

8 



NSC INTELLIGENCE 
DOCUMENT 



Earning Noxi 



KUSSltlcfi 



Warning Norict 

Inttlli9tn<t Seurctt »ri6 M«thOdl involved 

NATIONAL SECURITY INFORMATION 
Unauihonttd 0<KlO(urt Sub|t<t to Criminal Sanaiont 




S2-:iO C159 



EYES ONLY 



HEMl 




160 



MEMORAVCiM 



TOP SECRET 



N AT 1 O N A L S E. C '- R : T -1 C C ' ^ CI 
June 7, 1935 



3YS?t.M IV 

NSC :C3-40C5; 



,V' -7 



ACTION 



kRlJlNJ 



EYES ONL 



MEMORANDL-M FOR ROBERT C. KCFARlllNE 

FROM: OLIVtR L. NORTHT 

SUBJECT: Status of Hoat«9« R«cov«ry Efforts 




TOP SE 
D«clas 



flPWSftlFlED^ilRJ'SinEO 



161 



^ ONL 




— ■ ..peration. At the request of the two DEA officers who 
originated the contact m Lebanon, I met with their asset in 
Washington. Last weeJc, their intermediary expressed concern with 
proceeding with the operation based on the ir.stability inside 
-ebarcr.. In response tc their urgmgs (the ZZk officers were 
made aware of the possibility that the Dawa prisoners could be 
executed shortly after the end of Ramadan--June 19) and the death 
of one of his contacts inside Lebanon, he has now agreed to 
proceed as fellows: 

He will depart Saturday, Ju ne _8 . and meej 

contact in Zurope at well asflHBH^^^^W^ho WaH^Sft. 

secondary contact inside LebanoTKHew^^urgei 

return to Lebanor^n^ajjgnge for a neetlnq on_ 

one DEA officer^^^^^H hiaeelf, ar 




Once contact has been establiihed and a meeting arranged, 
the two DEA officers will depart for Cyprua via Vienna where 
they will deposit the S200K and establish an account for the 
S2M (S500K of which will be avail^l^imediately in U.S. 
dollars cash for use in Lebanon) . fll^BHwill then proceed 
to the meeting indicated above. ^^^^HB 



TOP SECRET 








EYES ONLY 



82-710 0-88-7 



162 



TOP SECRET 




ES ONLY 



H 



Th€ primary DEA contict' 
hostAxjet can b« bribed ^ 



7A2] 



rer 



_^_^_^ b«li«v«« that th« 
M a piace as followi: 



The S200K will be aufficient to bra 




believes that the S200K Aa.-C*«h will be »vt^g ietent to 
establish bona fides toflUPmm^^l^fl^o 49ree to 
pasjaae of at least 2 hga^?e^T^Onee -the o oeratien is 
u .-^_iilii__?r. c t.-.e :-.:s-dcec are i^rc-c.-. 
'ill be provided with SSOOK 





^1 turn the hostages over toj 
^^.-^.ere they will be placed a-circ. 
rented yacht for transport to Cyprus. 

One of the DEA of f icersj|^H^^|will have proceeded to 
Cyprus to rent a safehous^a^a temporary holding 
location in the event that all hostages are not 
recovered in the first attempt. 

The remaining $1.5M made available by the donor will be 
released from the account in Vienna as sc 
hort4fl£8 are aboard the yacht and at sea' 

rhffse funds will bg used to pay t.^g| 





It is assuBcd that th« price cannot be negotiated doi^^ive^the 
nuBb«r of p«opl« requiring brib«s. Both the DBA *ndflH||^H 
believe that this effort will produce two hostages and that 
additional hostages will be released for SIM each. The safehouse 
will be used to harbor/treat the first two hostages while 
arrangeoents (both financia^an^operational) are being made for 
the remaining hostages. |^m|^H believes that 72-96 hours would 
be required for a ceeond roun^^This assumes that additional 
funding is available on a near real-time basis. The donor is 
aware that the price being asked is SIM each. He is unaware that 
we are proceeding with a plan to release only two if the price 
does not come down. 



TOP SECRET 



ywusaFiHKEs ONLY 



163 



UNClASSIHEfi 



TOP SECRET 



EYES ONLY 



N 7 4 

J«n»^^» °"i<=4£^£^rep«r«d to t«k« l«.v« '•• soon «■ th.y «rc 
conc«ct«a oyjHp^H| Travel •rr«n<;»ni«nt« ar.d operational costs 
ars currently Dsmg financsd from funds noraally available to the 
Nicaraguan resistance. Our normal point-of-contact in the 
resistance for these natters is not yet aware. 

Suaaary. As discussed with ADM Poindexter, it appears that both 
these plans can proceed siaultaneously without undue concern for 
coopronise or- mutual jeopardy. Given that arranaenents for the 
DEA operation will take considerable tiM (contacts inside 
' lS*22£L;__^Aj^i££ilL-i£*£l£i£lAog*> *»d rental of yacht/ safehouse) 



RECOMMENDATIONS 

1. Th?t you approve proce»dinr with the plar.s outlined above. 

Approve >^,^ ■ Disapprove 

c ask that the two 



jntact the Attorr.ev Gen 



era^ 



2. Thct you 

:EA officers __^..^^ 

temporary detail to the NSC for a perlol 



__ be place 
of 30 days. 



cr. 



Approv^ ^ S,^ ■*> 



Atta 




Disapprove 



y 



^■^& 



TOP SECRET 




ONL\ 



164 



UNCLASSIFIED 



m! 




r 'i^."»-f 



N 7423 



r 






165 



ii 



iH ;^ ^ n 







^^aJ/BV J^ 



To Ifirl^ 



^^m^^' 



^m 



mm^^ 






MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECORO 
SUBJECT: 'ISC "^i 3$ion 



7 December 1983 



iriiiiiy Declassified/Released on IBff&SB S 

undef p'uvisions ol £.0 12356 
by K Johnson, National Secunty Council 



0395 



5303 



1. On Saturday, 23 ^<ovembe^ 1985, Ed Jucnm'ewicz asked :Tie if I was 
a^are of all tne activity trans^^ia on the effort to get the hostages 
out. He snowed -ne a cable tcflHHAasking that we pass a tnessage to the 
charge from the Deputy Assist^^^^^ne 'resident for Sational Security 
if-3"^'"s. 'le Tiessage issure-j tne :nar;e ".lat pn'y tne Secretary of State 
ans Anoassacor Ja<ley ><ere aware of :ne ooeration. I told Juchmewicz 
that I was jnaware of the specifics of the operation but due to the 
sensitivity of t.ie operation, it xas appropriate that .*e pass 
correspondence oetween the NSC and the amoassadors overseas, but only 
communications, that we could not oe involved without a Finding. 

On •■10 n_dav.^^ne__25t h of ^ovenoer, while visiting the Office of the 
DOG ■^^m^^HH^^^waspresen^an^ad given Clair George a Spot 
Reoort on a ri ignTtnataBHUHHim^iad -nade in support of the 'JSC 
■nis3":)n. ■. *eT. ".nrougn^ff^overhea-: oo'ifng ;ut tnat tne**? was to vay 
<*e ::ul'3 oec'nie "ivolved "n any iiio' ementaf: on :- tnis "nission wit.iout a 
-•oa-'ng. '^r. j'jc".n'5v.i -; exolaineJ tnat ■•e 313 not iia<a tne 
arrangements, ■•"en jeneral Secori yisite'i the Agency ie tried to get 
1 eaas on airlines t.iat nignt oe a/ailaole to love aquioment to tne 'Jear 
East in 3 secure ■■■asnion. /ie told niin we aid not nave any such airlift 
caoaoility. Ho'.tever, Mr. Jucnniewicz sa^a it was poin-ed out to oeneral 
Seor^tn^^hPfo «3s a coimercial airlift tnat Tii ght do it owned oy 
^^^I^^KK^/Kk general Secord tnen tooK it from there and made 
arrangements for a flignt on a strictly coimercial oasis. 

3. Scmewnat listressed at tnis turn o- events, I immeaiately 
'nfomed our Jeneral Counsel ^^ar :onf' t ng w tn Dewey Clarridge our • 
• Tvo" /enent. "' nstructa j ti^^^H^e'scn.ie' to ■^r.ec■3tii,/ ]0 ^ve** ana 

or--?- tne jene'i" ^ounse" ma T^^v- set t'e jene-a' -;unsei at 5:1:, tne 
iv-eTig 3' 25 lo/e'noe'". is infor-rei -ie 'iter tnat ^'.'jn: tnat a -■■nc'ng 
<cu" 3 ;e -eiui-?:. lot so nucn -••on -.ne r-'i't stancccint, out 'rem 3ur 
i ivolvemen- • -i --irVjencng foreign gove-nrne-it of-'cia's to assist tne 
■nission. A -ina-ng «as prepared tne next :ay. "he -'noing was clearea 
wi tn tne Director wno zalied McFarlane ana Don ^egan to ascertain that 
indeed this nad Presidential approval ano to get assurances tnat a 
rinaing .voula be so s'gned. After repeated calls to 'JSC personnel on 
n Novemoer ana during the week of I Decemcer continuously receiving 
'eassurances of tne President's intent to sign the Finding, <«e were 
noti-ied on 5 Decemper tnat indeed tne Finaing was signed. The President 
directed us not to inform Congress for tne reasons of the safety ina 
secure release of tne lostages until ne so directed. 



\m\ K^iinpn 



167 



UNCUSSIFie 



I 0394 



4. (C 
personal 1 



■25. November. | he ^n.assador ^g^ 

to taU to the Oir,ctorTnT^l"l]',tl,',f'^^^ like 

cable to the Ambassador assurtnq iim th!; rh. '"P°"". ' -"eieased a 
^riefed on by the OCM was ini a^eTby the at Snlt'^^" ''f \^' '^"^ '''" 
sjgqesnnqitwould not be wise to^rL.n? ^ '^^^ Security Council but 
get^iillHapproval.) "^'"^^ •° '""ctivate our request to 



Jo.in .J. Mc'-lahon 



UNCLASSIFIED 



168 



mmtfm 



C 5 7/5 

'florae <~>rt^^ 



os-f^fi^f^S^s.- 




C/EUR 

ACTION 



Partially Declassified/Released on lO^&S 88 
undei provisions o( E.O 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



.iUaJECT: MSC-RtQUEST 



REF: 




1. ACTION REQUESTED: FLASH RESPONSE SOONEST TO REF AND 



FOLLOWING. 



3. 

AND DE 
CHANNEL) 



^IIhet UITH AHR .^^^^ 

:7Invoked. Vll^B quite \Wi 

FIRST FLIGHT CA« 
ARANCE BEEjRIHAN^ 

ffl^TATE^EDTOrt 
lOLL 

partSi 

s^Bd 



2 

ALSO a. _ , 

RECEIVED. FACT FIRST FLIGHT CA« 
NOT REQUEST CLE] 
PLANE'S CARGO. 
TELEX mw CARRl 



GROUND CONTROLLERS -HE WAS CARRYING 



CARRIED THE CAN ON THIS 
«NT (DErtARCHE WILL' NOT B 



IS THAT 
CYNIC!! 

THAT 



I.. BOTTOn LINE 
ncupi nPPD i 1 ITTLF 
nATTER. 

subsequent to 

planes follow^revkal procedures 
and that they 00 not shuttle fro 
planes must not come directly fro 
and pick up othe, 
JIBM|at 




530M 



STIL 
UT OUR 



URS. AMBASSADOR WAS ' 
LTI EIE FLIGH T PLANS 
fROM^BHBAND Dior .^~' 

tiMiTsToRTES jkBout_;v - 

"INDUSTRY SPARE PARTS." 
AND THE PILOT TOLD 
EQUIPMENT. 

T. TO INVOLVE ambassador' 
ED OTHER THAN IN THIS 



TO ASSIST BUT HAS 
RACTION WITH THEM ON THE 
LD PROCEED 
ALSO INSISTS THAT 
ERFL IfiHT CLEARANCI . 
NOTEDflBBHHIH 
THEY SHOTJnrTuRNWEsT 
"OULD BE NO T Tn imi \?r 



S. ANC 

AIRCRAFT. 
>AME 




MATTER REQUIRING CLARIFICATION IS THE QUESTION 
HAS IMPRESSION FROM PAPERS FILFD BY- CARRIfR T 
E UTILIZED AND SHUTTLE FROM^IHH^ THAT I 
MPRESSION FROM EARLIER TRAFFIC. PLS CLARIFY. 



6. THE SITUATION NOTED PARA 2 REF. I.E. -SECOND FLIGHT 
THIS MORNING DID NOT EVENTUATE. WE NEED. HOWEVER. TO TRY 
EXPLAIN AWAY THE MULTIPLE FILED FLIGHT PLANS., IS IT PROB, 
THEY RCPRE StNT P LANNING PRIOR TO THE RESTRICTIONS PLACED 
FLIGHTS ByHB if SO. WAS THERE A BREAKDOWN IN COMMUN I 

charter carrier did not get the messa ge? thic is a pos 
explanation^Hpresented T 



r thTmessag 



any EVENT, WE ARE GO I NG..TO_HAVE 10 TRY AjjD_iVriSrrXHE. 

FPOINTS OUT THAT ATTEMPTS TO CIRCUMVENT THE GROUND RULES 
(EITHER CONSCIOUSLY OR THROUGH POOR COOiiD I NAT ION) ilJNS_BJSK OF A 
LEAK AND BAD PUBLICITY, HARMFUL MORE TO U.S. THAN 




C//A/^/f' 



r/c: 



EVlE>tD FOR «a£AS£ 
19 APR na? 



/j»/- 



r-rr- 





3 ^76 



21428 







Non Relevant 



•jnding Pursuant to«SecMon 662 of the Foreign 
Assistance Act of 196MiBi8 Amended, Concerning 
Operations Dndertakenljpi^jthe Central Intelligence 



Agency in Foreign Co< 



Intended Solely fort' 
Collection 




!s, Other Than Those 



rpose of Intelligence 



5305 



1 have been briefed o njt JBjg efforts being made by private 
parties to obtain the J^s^^^sB? Americans held hostage in 
the Middle East, and hereb^^gBofa that the following operations 
in foreign countries (inclu^^f«il support necessary to 
such operations) are important to the national security of 
the United States. Because of the extreme sensitivity of 
these operations, in the exercise of the President's consti- 
tutional authorities, I direct the Director of Central 
Intelligence not to brief the Congress of the United States, 
as provided for in Section 501 of the National Security Act 
of 1947, as amended, until such time as I may direct otherwise. 



SCOPE 



Hostage Rescu^ 
Middle East 



Partially Oeclassified/Reltased on lOrcSBj^ 
under provisions o1 E 12356 
K Johnson, National Security Council 



DESCRIPTION 



L. ■-: •l ^ \J . 




The provision of ass 

Central Intelligence 

private parties in 

obtain the releast 

held hostage in tt 

Such assistance ik 

provision of traV.sp'drtation, 

corjnunicat ions , and other necessary 

support. As part of these efforts 

certain foreign r.ateriel and r.ur.itior. 

may be provided to the Cover r-ent 



include the 



l.<J». 



170 





II 



f-»L 



Jf? 



Of Iran which i, t,).:„„ ,^ r 

facilitate the r'el^i^^of ^^ ^^^ 
American hostages! **** 

All prior actions tav-n k „ 

Governn,ent offlJ^S i" ^ "c^' 

of this effort ar*h-w^"''**'«""<=e 
" «re hereby ratified. 



^252 



Date: 




UNCI mm 




a, uty ^\ ^o 







Tindinq Purtuant to Section 662 of 

The Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 

. - As Amended, Concerning Operations 

Undertaken by the Central Intelligence 

Agency in Foreign Countries, Other Than 

Tho se Intended Solely for the Purpo"se~ 

of Intelligence Collection 






f\ne 



I hereby find that the following operation in a foreign 
covintry (including all support necessary to such operation) is 
important to the national security of the United States, and due 
to ^ts extreme sensitivity and security risks, I determine it is 
essential to lirait prior notice, and direct the Director of 
Central Intelligence to refrain from reporting this Finding to 
the Congress as provided in Section 501 of the National Security 
Act of ,J.947, as amended, until I otherwise direct. 



SCOPE 



Iran 



§ i =■ 



— -" t/i 



= _^ 3 




DESCRIPTION 

Assist selected friendly foreign liaison services, 
third countries and third parties which have 
established relationships with Iranian elements, 
groups, and individuals sympathetic to U.S. Government 
interests and which do not conduct or support terrorist 
actions directed against U.S. persons, property or 
interests, for the pbrpose of: (l) establishing a more 
moderate government In Iran, <2) obtaining from them 
significant intelligbnce not otherwise obtainable, to 
determine the current Iranian Government's intentions 
with respect to its rcighbors and with respect to 
terrorist acts, and )(3) furthering the release of the 
American hostages held in Beirut and preventing 
additional terrorist acts by these groups. Provide 
funds, intelligence,, counter-intelligence, training, 
guidance and communications and other necessary 
assistance to these Elements, groups, individuals, 
liaison services and third countries in support of 
these activities. 

The USG will act to facilitate efforts by third parties 
and third countries to establish contact with moderate 
elements within and outside the Government of Iran by 
providing these elements with arms, equipment and 
related materiel in order to enhance the /:redibil ity of 
these elements in their effort to achieve « more. 
pro-U.S. government in Iran by demonstrating their 
ability to obtain requisite resources tp defend their 
country against Iraq and intervention 
Union. This support will be disconti 
Government learns that these elements 
their goals of moderating their gove 
appropriated the aateriei-fo r pu rpos 
provided by this Finding. 



the Soviet 
ied if\the U.S. 
^ave abandoned 
nent anh 
other rh»n tlrrr 



53C6) 



The White House 
Washington, D.C. 
Date January 17, 

C//V nsu^ 



1986 
T 



tlNCffi! 




\ 

OGCR Ts oeoivee 

Copy 1 




173 



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CANTOR 
MILTON 



t^wSSS^f 



D 



DEPOSITION OF RONALD D. GODARD 



Thursday, May 21, 1987 



U.S. House of Representatives, 
Select Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D. C. 



The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 3:10 p.m., 
B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, Terry Smiljanich 
presiding. 

Present: Tim Traylor, on behalf of the House 
Select Committee. 

Terry Smiljanich, on behalf of the Senate Select 
Committee. 

Also present: George Taft, Legal Division, 
Department of State 



;>-. r- /^. 



^y=^ 



and : r provisior.; cf 3.O. 123SJ 
by IX^ lo, National Security Ceunc= 




9^<^?, 



^^^mm 



174 



UN^JSi^ED 



I CONTENTS 

2 

3 DEPOSITION OF ; PAGE 

4 Ronald D. Godard 
5 
6 
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jjjlll Dlllllflril"-'-- jl* on 



und«i 



MR. SMILJANICH: I understand that this reporter 
is a notary public in the State of Maryland. I have no 
objection to this reporter administering an oath for 
purposes of this deposition, and have no objection to the 
form of the oath. 
Whereupon, 

RONALD D. GODARD 
was called as a witness and, after having been first duly 
sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE SENATE SELECT 
COMMITTEE 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 
Q State your name, please. 
A My name is Ronald Duant Godard. 
Q Mr. Godard, you know my name is Terry 
Smiljanich. I am here to take a deposition on behalf 
of the Senate Select Committee on the Iran-contra matter. 
Also with us is Tim Traylor, who represents the House 
Select Committee on the same matter. 

I just want to ask you some very brief, general 
questions concerning your knowledge about certain matters. 
If there is anything I ask you or if you don't understand 
my question, please let me know that you don't understand 
and I will be happy to rephrase my question. 
A Very good . 



i^^ /yxf-:/'? 



provisions oi E.O. 123S6 



/fey D. Sii I o. National Security Council 



UNQU^^ED 



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UN(SlfS8inED 



' Q You are currently Deputy Director for Central 

2 American Affairs in the Bureau of Inter-American Affairs? 

3 A That's correct. 

* Q Department of State? 

5 A That's correct. 

6 Q How long have you held that position? 

7 A I have held that position since July 8, 1985. 

8 Q What are your duties as Deputy Director? 

9 A As Deputy Director, I am in charge of bilateral 

10 relations with Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Honduras. I 

11 have also been involved in regional affairs in one 

12 capacity or another, and duties as assigned to me by the 

13 Director of the office. 

14 Q Is there currently a Director of the office? 

15 A The Director is currently on TDY assignment, 

16 temporary assignment to San Jose, Costa Rica, as charge. 
j7 Q That is Rick Melton? 

18 A Richard H. Melton. 

]g Q Who does he report to, when he was Director? 
A Richard Melton reports directly to the Deputy 
Assistant Secretary in charge of Central American Affairs, 
and ultimately, of course, to the Assistant Secretary in 
the ARA Bureau. 

Q And William Walker is the Deputy Assistant 
Secretary whom he reports to? 



"NQWl^S^^'ED 



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A That's correct. 

Q There is an organization or group called the 
Restricted Inter-Agency Group that has been in existence 
for some time, which deals with Central American policy 
or Latin American policy also, is that correct? ' 

A That's correct, known by various names. 

Q Let's start off with when you first ccime in 
July of 1985. What organizational structure was in 
existence in terms of an inter-agency panel or group? 

A Here let me stress that I did not attend 
RIG meetings, but what did exist at that time as an 
inter-agency coordinating body was what was called the 
RIG for Central America. It was a restricted inter-agency 
group. 

After the passage of the humanitarian assistance 
legislation, its implementation beginning in I guess it 
was October of 1985, there was a more formal inter-agency 
group created that was then supervised by a senior 
inter-agency group, and that structure was set down, as 
I recall, in an executive order. 

Q Was the inter-agency group that was formed 
or created in October of 1985 also referred to as a 
restricted inter-agency group, a RIG? 

A The terms are used sort of interchangeably, 
and quite frankly there is also a restricted inter-agency 



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group, a RIG for Latin America, which is a much broader, 
much larger group, and as I understand the term, and I 
did not go to either body, I stress again, to their 
deliberations, the Restricted Inter-Agency Group was a 
much broader organization, whereas the IG, as I knew it, 
was limited to representatives from four or five agencies. 

Q Let's start with the RIG, the larger group. 
When the larger group, when the RIG dealt with Central 
American matters as opposed to South American, what 
groups -- I understand you did not attend the meetings, 
but you must have had some understanding of the fact that 
such an organizationkxisted and who was attending. 

A Yes. 

Q Who, to your knowledge, were the various groups 
and people who were represented at the large RIG? 

A At the large RIG? 

Q Yes. 

A For Central America? 

Q Yes. 

A There I do not think of it in terms of being 
a large RIG. This is a smaller group. 

Q Tell me who you -- 

A The agency representatives, insofar as I know, 
were DoD, Nestor Sanchez, for the Central Intelligence 
Agency^^^^^^^^H for NSC Ollie North, and Ray Burfthart 



UNCUSSI^ED 



179 



21 
22 
23 
24 
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uiSiffiSTnED 



1 also often attended from NSC. Elliott Abrams, and then 

2 there was a representative from the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 

3 and I don't know who that was. It has changed now. 

4 Q Was there, to your knowledge, a smaller working 

5 group which dealt specifically with the contras? 

6 A There were working groups derived from the 

7 inter-agency group that got together on an informal basis 

C 

8 to discuss specific problems, as desirbed by the partici- 

9 pants, and as directed by Elliott Abrams. 

10 Q Specifically, I realize this may not have been 

jj a formal organization, but was there a smaller working 

12 group, inter-agency group, dealing with matters involving 

13 the Nicaraguan resistance, that was more tightly held, the 

14 information within that group more tightly held than the 

15 larger formal RIG, and composed primarily of Elliott 
Abrams ,^^^^^^^^V and Ollie North? 

A I don't know if it had an organic identity as 



such, but those three individuals certainly got tghether 



16 
17 

ie 

l- and discussed issues regarding democratic resistance 
^Q Q With approximately what frequency, to your 
knowledge, did that group get together to discuss the 
Nicaraguan resistance? 

A Here I would have to estimate. 

Q I understand. 

A I just don't know from my own knowledge. I 



(JNCySi^PED 



180 



UN^^IgPI^D 



8 



' would say once a week perhaps. 

2 Q Was that group known by any particular name? 

3 Did people refer to it as something that would identify 

* it in your mind as those three particular people dealing 
5 with that matter? 

* A It could easily have been known as a specific 

7 group by other people. I did not think of it in those 

8 terms myself, since I was aware that there were other 

9 participants in the formal RIG or IG structure. 

10 Q Did you ever hear of the folks referred to 

11 as a RIG- let or mini-RIG, anything like that? 

12 A I have heard those terms. I can't remember 

13 now when I first started hearing them, but I don't 

14 remember it in reference to those three people. 

15 Q But you did have an understanding that these 

16 three people would on an informal basis meet approximately 

i'r>a 

17 once a week to discuss matters involv«»the Nicaraguan 

18 resistance in Central America? 

19 A Yes, once a week, once every two weeks, 

20 whatever as necessary. T 

21 . Q And this is during what period of time? 

22 A Well, certainly from the beginning when I 

23 first ccune to Washington in July of 1985 through the 
2^ beginoin? of the humanitarian assistance program, and 
-_ after that until the middle of last year anyway. 



wNCM^^pa 



181 



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UN@3(SSff^D 



1 Q Until the summer? 

2 A That's right. _ ■' -• -. 

3 Q Early «yil oi.1^6? 



4 A Yes. 

5 Q Since then, since the fall of 1986, is there 

6 in fact a formal organization set up to deal specifically 

7 vith the Nicaraguan situation? 

8 A That's correct. 

9 Q That im caimA the JG-H? ^ -:^.^ .... . 
A ^S^Nf and^It J;^supervi««d or its activities 

11 are reviewed by "SeiSbr inter-agency group, which is 

12 chaired by Mr. Armacost. 

j3 Q The RIG and the smaller working group of the 
RIG were chaired by Elliott Abrams, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q When these groups formed policies or made 
decisions, how were you informed of the actions of these 
.p groups? 

A I was indirectly given instructions. My 
boss. Rick Melton, is not a participant ordinarily. I 
suppose occasionally he might have been invited to 
meetings, and indeed did occasionally, was invited to 
meetings. That happened on an informal basis as well. 
Depending on the issues to be discussed others would be 
invited, and Rick would come back and there would be 



""•MJSPB 



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UN^iSSfl^D 



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1 taskings or instructions for our office to carry out, to 

2 produce papers or whatever, so that is how I would get 

3 instructions. 

4 Q When you started as Deputy Director for Central 

5 American Affairs, what has come to be known as the Boland 

6 amendment, the second Boland amendment, which provided for 

7 a complete cut-off of all U.S. aid to the Nicaraguan 

8 resistance was in effect in July of 1985 when you accepted 
g your position, is that correct? 

^0 A As far as I know, it was. 

]] Q Were you given anything in the way of guidelines 

^2 or instructions as to permissible or non-permissible 

j3 activities in light of that legislation? 

A You mean upon my arrival in Washington and 
taking up my duties? 
Q Right. 

A No, I was not given any specific instructions. 
I did have some consciousness from my previous assign- 
ment that there was a Boland amendment and that there 
were restrictions on what Government agencies could do. 

Q Did you at some point ask legal counsel at 
State Department a question concerning what your actions 
should be in light of the Boland amendment? 

A At one point I recall asking for an inter- 
pretation of the Boland amendment, telling me what it 



UNeiiftSiSWED 



183 



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UN^fSSflTED 



11 



' actually provided, and I think "L" did provide or did 
* produce a docximent which sort of gave the outlines of 
the Boland amendment. 

Q Had anything in particular raised this question 
for you? 

A I don't recall. 
^ Q Do you remember who provided the — 

8 A Peter Olsen would have been the one that I 

9 approached on it. 

10 Q You told us at our interview several weeks ago 

11 about the time in which you, you meaning your organization, 

12 were getting calls from people wanting to know where 

13 they could contribute. 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q When they could contribute money to the contras , 

16 and where they could do this, and that you had a question 

17 about how you should handle that, and you went to Peter 

18 Olsen. 

19 A Correct. 

20 Q To get some guidance. Is that what you are 

21 talking about? 

22 A No. That is not exactly what I am talking 
about. We did, of course, seek, in handling this 
correspondence, to get cleared through "L" a letter 
that was acceptable in terms of the law, but questions 



UNCLASSIRED 



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184 

SECRET 



12 



1 about the Boland amendment came up in other contexts as 

2 well, and I simply can't remember what the instance was 

3 that prompted me to request that information. 

4 Q Do you recall when this was? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Could you relate it to when you started your 

7 duties? 

8 A Not really. It could have been much later 

9 than that. I remember being very confused at one point 
JO as to whether the Boland amendment, if it had an ending 

J J point, and I think that was one thing that concerned me, 

12 because there were two schools of thought. People were 

13 saying various things, that it was still in effect, and 

14 others that it was not, and I think that was one of my 

15 specific questions of Peter Olsen. 

jg Q Your confusion arose from the fact that there 

was on one hand a Boland amendment cut-off. On the other 
hand, there was new legislation authorizing $27 million 
in humanitarian aid? 

A That's right. 

Q And your question was, well, does that super- 
sede Boland? 

A That's right. 

Q Does that mean the original cut-off was over 
with or not? 



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A That's correct, and there were people who — 
yes, there were both schools of thought, as I recall. 

Q Can you recall anything specific that was 
decided that you were told by the very small working 
group involving the contras composed of Abrans , North 



anc 



<?ere you ever told that this particular group 



had come up with any decision that youl^ere supposed to 
implement? 

A What Rick would come back with for me were 

instructions to do things in the way of getting information 

+ 

from our embassies, our instrucing our ambassadors to go 

in and do representations to the governments they were 
accredited to. I'm sure there must have been instances 
when he came back and said it has been decided, but his 
instructions came from Elliott. It was not conveyed 
as an IG decision per se. He worked for Elliott and he 
came back, Elliott wants this, Elliott wants that. 

Q Prior to the time it becaune a matter of some 
public discussion, were you ever apprised of the fact 
that there was some type of a secret airfield in| 

:hat was built by some people, to be used for 
contra resupply? 

A I heard rumors about it being ii 

and quite frankly I confused it with another 
airfield that I was aware ofj 




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I had thought that was 
what people were talking about. I subsequently discovered 
relatively recently that it was something else. 

Q Do vou recall who was discussing it and what 
they were spying when you had this confusion about what 
they were talking about? 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand 
cally recall who told me this. 

Q You were aware, were you not, throughout the 
latter part of 1985 and through 1986 that Ollie North 
was very active in connection with matters in Central 
America involving the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A Sure. 

Q That was pretty well known, wasn't it? 

A Sure . 

Q What view did you have of it? In other words, 
what was your impression of what Colonel North was 
specificallT^^daing in Cent^S" America, and _I would assume 
that you would have some curiosity about it, being the 
Deputy Director for Central American Affairs. What did 
you know about it, or hear about it? 

A I heard rximors. I was not clear that there 



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1 was illegal activity going on, but the rumors were in 

2 that context. 

3 As I recall, there were press stories as well 

4 during that period on what the NSC was about in the area 

5 of private contacts, and that is about it. I did not 

6 probe deeper than that. 

7 Q You mentioned press reports. In August of 1985, 

8 The New York Times ran a story which specifically named 

9 Ollie North as the White House staff person who was 
JO coordinating activities involving the contras ' military 
It efforts in Central America, allegedly in violation of 
\2 existing statutes, and in faci the Managua newspapers 
j3 picked it up, Izvestia ran an article on Ollie North, so 
t4 there was a lot of press focus on North in August of 
j5 1985, 



Did you, in response to any of that, do any 
looking into the situation to try to find out whether 
there was anything behind these allegations? 

A No, I did not. 

Q Do you know if anyone else did at State 
«. Department? 

A No, I do not. 

Q Was there a reason why you didn't look into 
it? Were you not curious as to whether or not — go 
ahead. Was there a reason why not? 



UNCWgSJBfB 



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UN^S(^flKED 



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' A I was very curious but it really wasn't our 

2 responsibility to do that, insofar as I interpreted my 

3 job. Perhaps if there was illegality, it was for the 
* law enforcement agencies to look into. 

5 Q You mentioned some of the rumors surrounding 

6 Colonel North's activities involved the question of 

7 legality. What specifically did you hear about that? 

8 A Well, fund raising, talk about fund raising. 

9 Mostly that, that he was involved with a private network 

10 of raising money, and he was obviously in contact with 

11 resistance leaders frequently as well. 

12 Q How did you know that? 

13 A Hearsay, people told me he was. 

14 Q . Throughout the latter part of 198 5 and the 

15 first part of 1986 there was a large and understandably 

16 cocerted effort within the bureau to try to get new 

17 legislation passed authorizing aid to the Nicaraguan 

18 resistance. Were you a part of that legislative effort? 
)g I know that, for example, Jim Michel was very 
20 involved with it, and other people. Was that one of 

your tasks? 

A Very much so, yes. 
22 Q Diiring that time period, though, what was 

2^ your understanding as to how the contras were being 

«- supplied or provided during this period where they had 



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1 no aid coming to them? 

2 A Well, it is my understanding that they had 

3 private sources of funding. I didn't know who the 

4 suppliers were per se . At a time I had been in Costa 

5 Rica I had heard mention** frequently of foreign countries 

6 that were donors to the resistance. I had also heard 

7 that there were American citizens who were contributing 

8 to them. 

9 As we went into the arrangements for the 

10 humanitarian assistance program, we were also thinking as 

11 we approached that that we were building on an existing 

12 supply network. By that I mean the Nicaraguan humanitarian 

13 assistance program, for instance, was not going to have to 
create something out of whole cloth so far as delivering 
those supplies, that there was an existing network for 
getting stuff to them, which simplified the task, we 

.J thought. 

Q In other words, it was your understanding that 
the Nicaraguan resistance had its own logistics system — 

A That's correct. 

Q — in place, which the humanitarian aid program 
could make use of, in getting the humanitarian aid to 
the resistance? ^-=.- 

A Right. In other words, we would simply deliver 
it to them stateside and then they could take care of 



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1 getting it where it was supposed to go. 

2 Q When the humanitarian aid program actually got 

3 off the ground, did you discover that in fact it wasn't 

4 the casef^that they had a very well-organized logistics 

5 system to handle this? 

6 A At one point I remember talking about this with 

7 Bob Duemling, who was the director of the program, and he 

8 discovered as he worked along with the program that this 

9 logistical network which he thought when he went into the 
\Q program was much less than what he had hoped. 

]f Q Did you know whether or not Ollie North had 
12 anything to do with the logistics system? 
■3 A I suspected that he did, but I don't know 
that. 

Q What was the basis of your suspicion? 

A The news reports, for one thing. 

Q Anything else? 

A Just rumors . 

Q Did he ever talk to you about any of those 
matters? ... ..^ 

A No. 

Q Did you have very maiiy meetings one-on-one 
with Colonel North? ■#& ,. ^--^jy^rfa^ ~ ■•'■■^-,. 

A Ran into him in the hall»=5whea_l^%?as coming 
to meetings in the front office of the bureau, but other 



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than that, no. 

Q -You mean"ineetings where he^as going to go in 
and talk to Q^iott Abreuns? 

A That's correct. 

Q Bdt did you ever participate iitany one-on-one 
meetings just between you and Ollle North ^^ discuss 
anything? ' ""3-- 

A There was one pne-on-one meeting; this was in 
San Jose, Cos ta_jRica, before I even )«*H^wTio Ollie 
North was, really^ He was down there, it must have been 
during my firsts*- I just don't recall, 'it was when 
Ambassador Windsor was there, so it wasn't my first 
ambassadoe^it was my second ambassador, and it would 
have been probably in 1984 where he was in town." He 
sought me out to chat a little bit about the ambassador 
actualj^i^anA^i^ was'aSoot a five- or ten-minute- 
conversa^tiefel^ - " -^ 

Q Do you irecall whiT i t was about?" 

A He was worried 





Q Were you involved at all in any of the sertBB 
of meetings tha^»ere h»ld with General Singlaub 
concerning a trip he was going to take | 
^^^^^^^^Hin the spring of 



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1 A I wasn't involved in those. 

2 Q You didn't ait in on any of the nftetings? 

3 A No. - - _ '' !■-: ^r-T 

4 Q In which Assistant Secretary Abrams or sometimes 

5 Rick Melton met with General SinglauB? 

6 1 A No. I was aware at least of one of the meetings 

7 that Singlaub was going to meet with Rick. I was not 

8 aware of the contents of the meetings until after the 

9 fact. 

\0 Q When General Singlaub went^^^^^^^^B there 

11 were then some fund communications back and forth from 

12 there. While he wa^^^^^H^^H were you aware of the 

13 fact that General Singlaub was ^^^^^^^| specif ically 

14 trying to get some private solicitations for the contras? 

15 A I recall, I seem to recall, and here let me 
15 tell you that after when I really became aware of what 
j7 happened in those meetings was when I was asked by the 

bureau to collect some documents for you people, as a 
matter of fact, I think. 

Q So you have seen the series of memos? 

A That is when Rick turned over to me the six 
memoranda and then I collected them for the rest of the 
bureau and turned them in, but I seem to recall that I 
was aware that Rick was expecting a call from Singlaub 

but I did not know the content of 



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what they wanted to talk about. 

Q There is at this point a bit of discrepancy 
in who can remember what about that. Let me tell you 
what the discrepancy is and then see if you can come down 
on one side or the other and tell me if you have any 
information about it. 

On the one hand, there is the allegation that 
General Singlaub thought that he had the okay to make 
these approaches, and that then he got a phone call while 
he was over there telling him "Don't do it, we have changed 
our mind . " 

The other side of the story is that, no, he 
was never told that it was authorized, and he called 
from there and was then finally, you know, it was 
finally too late to put him off anymore. He had to be 
told, "We're sorry, but we're not going to give you the 
signal that you want us to give to the foreign govern- 
ment." 

Do you have any information one way or the 
other as to which of those two is more accurate? 

A No, nothing beyond the memoranda that I 
read. 

MR. SMILJANICH: I have no more questions. 



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1 EXAMINATION BY THE HOUSE SELECT 

2 COMMITTEE 

3 BY MR. TRAYLOR: 

4 Q I have a couple of questions to cover some 

5 ground that Terry covered already. 

6 You stated that you did not attend the RIG 

7 or the IG meetings. Did Bill Walker ever give you read- 

8 outs on the meetings that he attended? 

9 A Yes, he did. I said earlier that it was Rick, 
JO but sometimes Rick and I would together go up and Bill 

fl could give us a read-out. I don't remember ever getting 
j2 a read-out from Elliott directly, and there would be 
j3 instances I 'm sure when Rick was gone for one reason or 
j4 another, when Bill would just call me up by myself to 
give me a read-out. 

Q Could you give an example of what kind of a 
read-out Walker or Melton would give you? 

A If Rick were there to actually give a direct 
read-out on what went on — as I say, he didn't always 
attend the RIG or the IG meetings; he may occasionally 
have gone to those — it would be there was a RIG or an 
IG meeting this afternoon, and we have got some things 
to do. We need to get a teible <3ut^^^^^^^^^^^H find 
out what they know about this incident. Elliott needs 
some more information on such and such a thing. We have 



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got to telL^^^^^^^^^^B to be careful about such and 
such a thing or we have got to find out from them such 
and such information. 

Q From these read-outs or briefings that were 
given to you, did you ever have the impression or belief 
that these RIG meetings they were discussing involved 
the contra resupply operation? 

A No. Well, of course, until we were doing 
humanitarian assistance. 

Q Of course. 

A Which was a major item on the agenda. 

Q Lethal aid? 

A Yes. 

Q Regarding the secret air stripl 
you said you heard veiled references there was this strip, 
and you said you couldn't recall. This issue is an 
important one to us, to this investigation, to know the 
extent of the knowledge and when it was first known. 
I take it these rumors , from what you said 
earlier, that you possibly heard themj 

A Yes. 

Q From people 

A Yes, 





After you had assumed your current job? 

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Q Would it be fair to say that it is likely, 
then, that you learned about this air strip in 





of 1986? 



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Q Would it also be fair to say that it is possible 
that you learned iti 





A Possible, and as I say, it just didn't register 
with me,r 

Q I would like to talk a little bit about the~ 
bad blood between the past I guess and now between ARA 
and INR. 

A Yes. 

Q And your knowledge of that, and the extent of 
the problem if you could. 

A Yes. My previous ambassador, my first 
ambassador was Frank McNeil, who came to be the Deputy 
Director of INR. I maintain contact with Frank, and 
have talked to him frequently really during the period 
when this bad blood was supposed to exist. Frank never 
spoke directly to the problem with me. I heard from 
other people that there were disagreements between Elliott 
and Frank, the feeling being that the analysis was wrong 
and was skewed for ideological reasons . 

I have seen the same reports that were objected 
to by my front office, but I do not have direct knowledge 
of the feud between the two personalities involving 
Elliott and Frank McNeil. I only heard of it from 
third parties, and I have heard that the role of INR 



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as a counselor or adviser to ARA was circumvented. They 
were shut out of things because of this disagreement. 

I have no feel for how extensive INR's role 
in that regard was with ARA before, because I wasn't 
there. It was certainly my impression since I arrived 
that INR was not really in the confidence of my front 
office. 

MR. TRAYLOR: Thank you, Mr. Godard . I have 
no other questions. 

MR. SMILJANICH: Nothing further. 

(Whereupon, at 3:45 p.m., the deposition waS 
adjourned.) 



mmm 



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UarrrtoMl ud UimAM 
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Coamittee Hearing! 



^/3I 



V3, HOUSE OF BEPRESENTATIVES 



under provisions 0( £ 1 



PartaUy Declassified/Released on_ 
under provisions o( £ 12356 
by K Johnson. Natonal S«cunty Council 



OVFICI OF THE CLXSK 
OAm a< OOdal Rcpartaa 



'»-^-^, 



COP© 



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PAGE 



RPTS DINKEL 
DCMH STEVENS 

DEPOSITION or ROY S. GODSON 

Thursday, Saptftnbar 10, 1987 

Housa oi Rapresentativfts , 
Salact Connittaa to Invastlgata 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington. D.C. 

Tha salact committaa nat. pursuant to call, at 9=30 a.m., 
in Room B-336, Rayburn Housa Offica Building, Thomas Fryman 
[Staff Counsal to tha Housa Salact Committaa] presiding. 

Present: On behalf of tha Housa Select Committee: Thomas 
rryman. Staff Counsel; Kenneth R. Buck, Assistant Minority 
Counsel; Spencer Oliver, Associate Counsel; ajH Tom 
CiehansKi, Investigator .ti»w<' fi^/wf ■,^-to^..-ri^^^*^ (^^""t***"^ <-*<--w-e'- 

On bahalf of tha Senate Salact Committee: Thomas HcGough, 
Senate Staff Counsel ^n d Bu t t Hamm e n d , Inves llaalUL . 

On bahalf of tha Witness: Earl Silbart, Esquire. 

PaflWIy Oec*i*M»teeas«l on jy^5Ll8 
under pr^Bbns 01 E 12356 
tiy K Johnson. National Sacunty CouKll 




202 



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Whttzaupon> 

ROY S. GODSON 
was callad for as a witn«ss and, aitar having b«en duly 
suoin, was axaninad and tastliiad as follows: 

MR. SILBERT^ Hy nana is Eazl Silbazt. I an acting 
in behalf of tha witnass, Roy Godson. 

I would lika to Introduca and naka a matter of tha 
record at the outsat thraa docuaants . First is a latter 
fron na addressed to the Honorable Congressman Lea H. 
Hamilton, attention of John Nields and Mr. Thomas Fryman. 
That was a letter dated September 8, 1987, and related to my 
understanding of the scope of tha deposition of Hr . Godson. 
And briefly summarized, it simply states my understanding 
the relate t c ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 3 r i to 

Switzerland, but that particularly within the category of 
questions relating to Switzerland, I wanted to be sure that 
tha questions were germane to the appropriate subject matter 
of this committee, that is, within the scope of the mandate 
of this committee. 

And In respect to that, I relied in part and 
attached to the latter a document that I would like marked 
as Godson Exhibit number 2, or however you handle documents 
such as this, a Washington Report of Congressman Lee 
Hamilton dated August 9, 1987, in whioh he set fo^^/the 







203 



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policies that wera being investigated by this Select 
Coaaittee . 

The third document is a letter that X received in 
response fpfc™ Hr . Fryman dated September 9, 1987, in which 
he acknowledged receipt of my letter dated September 8, 
stated that he did not agree with some of the statements 
about either the prior interview of Mr. Godson to uhich 
reference was made in my letter or about our discussion of 
the scope of today's deposition. 

And together with his letter, Hr . Fryman attached a 
copy of the House Resolution 12 establishing the House 
Select Committee. 

I would simply state for the record, Hr . Fryman, 

that my recollection is unequivocal, it doesn't mean I am 

saying your recollection is wrong, my recollection is very 

clear as to what I understood the scope of the deposition to 

be and it was. that in mind yth osaj only jsub jects on which X 

prepared Hr . Godson for his deposition today. 

In particularly since he is under oath, I would 
) 
feel very much remiss in proceeding, almost guilty of 

■alpractlce, if X permitted him to go forward and respond to 

quMstions under oath on subject matters for which he was not 

prepaxad by counsel. 

So I hope that tha questioning can be confined to 

those two areas as my recollection is clear. 



UNCLASSflED 



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MR. FRYMAH: What would you like to mark as an 
exhibit, Hr . Silbert, the two letters? 

HR. SILBERT: Yes. 

MR. FRYMAN: And Congressman Hamilton's report? 

MR. SILBERT: if you want to have the House 
Resolution as a further eKhibit, I have no objection. 

MR. FRYMAN: I don't think that is necessary. That 
is part of the record of this committee. 

If we would mark as Godson Deposition Exhibit 1 for 
identification. I think it appropriate to mark all of these 
documents as one exhibit, Mr. Silbert. 

MR. SILBERT: That is fine. 

MR. FRYMAN: The two letters and the Washington 
Report from Congressman Hamilton that Mr. Silbert 
identified . 

After further discussion between Mr. Silbert and 
roe, we have decided that the best way to proceed is to mark 
his letter of September 8, 1987, Deposition Exhibit 1A; my 
letter of September 9, 1987, Deposition Exhibit IB; and the 
Washington Report of Congressman Hamilton, dated August 19, 
1987, Deposition Exhibit 1C. 

[Deposition Exhibits 1A, IB, and 1C were marked for 
identification. 1 

MR. SILBERT: The only other matter I wish to put 
on the record at this time is the fact that your letter 




in 



WJ5.9 



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UNCUSSIREI 



NAME: HIX253000 VllVkliW^ifi kimiJ' PAGE 5 

98 referred to this deposition being classified as top secret. 

99 I 3ust wish to put on the record and make it clear that I, 
100 as counsel for Mr. Godson, Professor Godson, have no 
10 1 clearances of any nature whatsoever to my knowledge, 

102 certainly none so far as I am aware with respect to this 

103 proceeding. I don't think I have any. 
10M . And, as a result of that, in the course of ray 

105 representation of Professor Godson, I have never discussed 

106 with him any material that I thought was classified and 

107 certainly as far as I know he has advised me he has never 

108 told ne anything or discussed with me anything he considered 

109 classified because he was aware that I did not have any 
1 10 clearances . 
H 1 I only state that as regard any questions that 

112 might relate to a classified area, since I would never have 

113 had a chance to prepare Kr . Godson as his counsel to respond 
11U to inquiries on such questions, 
ns MR. FRYHAK! Hr . Silbert. I was going to say that I 

116 had three preliminary remarks to make, and you have 

117 anticipated the first one. 

118 HR. SILBERT: very well. 

119 HR. rRYMAH: On the subject of classification of the 

120 deposition. I did indicate in my letter to you that this 
12 1 deposition and the transcript of the deposition would be 
122 classified top secret. I did that in response to what I 



IINCUSSf 



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thought was a concern oi youzs about Hr . Godson testifying 
with respect to the purpose of his fund raising in 
connection with certain events in Nicaragua. 

Prior to the comnencement of the deposition this 
morning, you and I have discussed this matter and we have 
concluded that it may not be necessary for the deposition to 
be classified and we have agreed that we are commencing the 
deposition on an unclassified basis. 

If we reach the point that it appears that some of 
the questions involve areas that may relate to classified 
subjects, we have agreed that we will suspendjT the 
questioning and we will then discuss how we should proceed. 
MR. SILBERT: That is the reason — 

HR. FRYHAK: The second comment I wanted to make is 
in response to our comments about the areas of investigation 
and our prior discussions and the prior interview of Kr . 
Godson . 

As I stated in my letter, I do not agree with some 
of the statements in your letter. So far as I am concerned 
the scope oi siuestloning today is governed by House 
Resolution 12\/which I sent you a copy, but it seems to me 
that there is no purpose to be served at this point with you 
and I getting into a lawyer's argument back and forth, and I 
will just let the record as far as I am concerned remain 
with the exchange of letters between us. 



UNCLASSIFIEO 



207 



ONCUSSIflEO 



MAKE: HIR253000 W I 1 l#L.rEI il 1 1 1 Kl IM PAGE 7 

148 Tha third point I wanted to roaka , howaver, is in 

149 zasponsa toVour commant about your not baing able to prepare 

150 Mr. Godson on any subjects other than the subjects that you 

151 referred to in your letter. 

'52 In your letter of September 8, you asked that I advise you 

153 by the close of business on Wednesday, September 9, if I had 

15i» any disagreement with your letter and my letter was sent to 

155 your oiiica before the close of business yesterday. 

156 So as far as I am concerned, you were on notice of 

157 my position as to tha scope of this deposition prior to the 

158 close of business yesterday, which was tha tine you asked to 

159 be notified of my position, and so far as I am concerned, 

160 the scope of the examination today is governed by the 

161 subject matters sat forth in House Resolution 12. 

162 MX. SILBERT: Ue just respectfully disagree on 

163 that. 
1614 HR. FRYMAN: Right. 

165 EXAHINATIOM OK BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

166 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

167 2 Mr. Godson, would you state your full name for the 

168 record, please? 

169 A Roy S. Godson. 

170 e In what city do you reside, Mr. Godson? 

171 A Washington, D.C. 

172 2 Where did you obtain your undergraduate degree? 



Mmim 



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A rtiddleburg Collaga. 

2 Is that in-- 

A Vermont. 

Q What was youc field of study? 

A Political science. 

2 And you received a B.A. fion Hiddleburg? 

A Correct. 

2 What year was that? 

A 196U. 

2 Did you pursue graduate studies after receiving 
your B . A . ? 

A At Colunbia University. 

2 Xn what field? 

A International relations, national security. 

2 Did you receive a further degree? 

A An n. A . and a Ph. D. 

2 What years did you receive those degrees? 

A X can't renember exactly, but H.A. would be in the 
late sixties, and Ph.D. in the early seventies. 

2 Did you write a dissertation in connection with 
your Ph.D.? 

A I did. 

e Hhat was the subject of your dissertation? 

A The role of the Anerlcan labor moveaent in European 



politics . 



UNCUSWO 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 



KAIIE 

198 2 Have you sarvad as a consultant to th« Kational 

199 Sacurity Council? 

200 A I hava . 

20 1 Q Sinca whan hava you sarvad as consultant? 

202 A 1982 to 1987. 

203 2 You are no longer a consultant? 
20U A That is correct. 

205 2 When did you cease being a consultant? 

206 A I think in July 1987. 

207 2 Do you know the reason why you were originally 

208 offered a position as a consultant to the HSC? 

209 HR. SILBERT: Do you know the reason? 

210 THE WITHESS' I think so. 

211 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

212 2 What do you believe to be the reason? 

213 A I think the reason was because of ny study of 

2 1M United States intelligence and its requirements for the 

215 future. 

216 8 Who told you that was the reason? 

2 17 A I said I thought that was the reason, but I don't 

2 18 recall a specific reason being given. But the person who 

2 19 asked me to serve as consultant and who asked Judge Clark to 

220 interview me was Kenneth DeGraiien ^Keid. who worked in 

22 1 intelligence > who served in the Internal Directorate, and 

Of 

222 was subsequently Direct, of Intelligence Programs at NSC. 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIR253000 IIIUI.I U.-^.^ll II II PAG£ 10 



S Is it your understanding that Hr . DeGraiien Xeid 
was 'tcss the person who initiated the discussions about your 
becoming a consultant? 

A Yes. 

2 Do you know ii Willian Casey had any role in your 
being appointed as consultant in the HSC? 



llNClASSiFlM 



211 



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DCHN GLASSNAP 



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A I don't know. 

C Do you have any iniormation that indicates whether 
he had such a lola? 

A No. 

2 Hou did you know Hr . De Graffenteid? 

A In the lata 1970s, when I began the academic study 
of intelligence, as a faculty raeaber, I got to meet many of 
the staffers on the House and Senate Select Committees. Hr . 
De Graffenteid was one. 

B You kept in touch with him? 

A I saw him and others with some frequency. 

S Who do you understand made the decision to retain 
you as a consultant in the National Security Council, if you 
know? 

A No, I don't know. 

2 You don't know? 

A No. 

2 Did you talk with Judge Clark about becoming a 
consultant? 

A Yes, I did. 

B At that time, was he the National Security Adviser? 

A Hell, he was the National Security Adviser. Hy 
understanding further is that the National Security Adviser 



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HIR2S3000 IJIlVL-ltWWIl •*»"^ PAGE 12 
makes decisions about this matter, and I assumed Judge Claik 
had made that decision. 

2 And your initial uotk as a consultant was in 1982? 
Is that correct? 

A It began in 1982. 

Q And continued off and on for a five-year period. 

A Correct. 

2 I take it this was not a full-time position. 

A Kot by any means. 

2 How were you compensated? 

A For specific hours worked. 

2 So you would make a monthly — 

A Yes, sir. 

2 Periodic report of the hours that you had devoted 
to such work. 

A Exactly. 

2 You were paid on an hourly rate. 

A Daily rate. 

2 Per diem rate. If you worked two hours in one day, 
were you paid fox the full day? 

A Ko. no. I assume it is sort of the way lawyers 
bill. If they work two hours on one day, they billed for 
just those two hours. 

2 When you say you were paid on a daily rate, I am 
not quite sure what you mean. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 13 



2 Thera was a daily rate for a consultant. I signed 
a contract on that basis, and then it said you would be paid 
for working for a day, then I would subnit the number oi 
hours until it nada up one day. 

2 I see. Uhat was your daily rate? 

A I think it began at ^175, it went up to ^00, or--I 
can't remereber exactly--but approximately. 

Q Mr. Godson, in the five years that you served as a 
consultant, did the number of hours you devoted to this work 
vary substantially between years, or was it reasonably 
steady? 

A I would have to review the period. It is five 
years, and I can't remember exactly. 

2 Realizing you don't have your records here, X am 
just trying to get some sense of the amount of time that you 
devoted. Let's take the years 1985 and 1986. How many 
hours would you estimate that you devoted in the entire year 
of 1985 to this work? 

HR. SILSERT: Just don't guess. If you have a 
reasonable estimate and can answer his question, do not 
guess . 

MR. fRYHAK: That is correct. I am not--X am asking 
iot a reasonable estimate^ based on your recollection. 
THE MITKESS : By my standards, not very many. 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 



uNCUssra 



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NAHE: 
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32U 
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HIR253000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE m 



2 Was it undet 1,000 hours? 

A I would have to work it out in days. How many 
hours is five days, eight into 1,000? 

e Uell, assuming-- 

A 125. No, then it would be 12 months. It would be 
less . 

C Mould you estimate it was under 500 hours? 

A It is sort of--my best recollection would be in the 
estimate of a couple of days a month. 

2 So, approximately 20 to 25 days a year. 

A I am trying to be helpful here, but I think it 
would be approximately that, but I don't remember. 

S Would the time in 1986 be approximately the same as 
1985? 

A The summit years were particularly heavy years for 
me, the summit meetings were matters I worK/^on, and so I 
guess it was fall of '8'4-'85, I don't — I don't recall exactly 
when the summits were at this moment. 

e To whom did you report at the National Security 
Council? 

A Hell, it is a — it is not easy — there is no simple 
answer. First the National Security Advisers change. I 
felt my ultimate responsibility was to the National Security 

r 

Advir^, but I specifically went over my hours and projects 
and tasking with Ilr . De Graffenreid and then subsequently 



*tt% 



215 



KAME- 
329 

330 
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3140 
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3<42 
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UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 15 



with Waltar Raymond. 



2 Now what do you lecall was Me. De Graf f anraid ' s 
exact position or titla? 

A Ha was eithai Ditactoi or SeniOE Dizector oi 
Intelliganca Programs . 

Q What do you racall was Mr. Raymond's exact position 
or title? 

A I can't remember. 

2 Was he also involved in intelligence matters while 
at the National Security Council? 

HR. SILBERT: That is a very broad subject. I 
don't know that has to do with the scope of this inquiry. 
Counsel, if you could narrow it. 
BY HR. FRYHAH: 

2 Do you understand the question, Hr . Godson? 

A The way Counsel phrased it, I would like to 
proceed . 

2 Hy pending question was, do you understand my 
question? 

A Well, the definition of intelligence matters is a 
subject of great academic and political controversy. I 
would want to be precise. I would like to define 
intelligence matters. 

S You said that Mr. Oe Graffenreid was involved with 
intelligence programs. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



216 



llNtUSSW 



NAHE: HIR2S3000 illlUL.riW«" •— -^ pjcE 16 



3St 

355 

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363 

36U 

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371 

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373 

37H 

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377 

378 



A That was his title. 

fi Do you know what intelligence progzans aze? 
A I think I do, but it is a natter of great 
controversy. The definition of intelligence is a matter of 
great controversy. 

2 Uhat is your definition of intelligence programs? 
A I would have to take some time to write it out. I 
have a whole page definition which X discussed with my 
class, and I spend hours on this very question. 

HR. SILBERT: Frankly, I don't propose to have him 
do that here today. 

HR. FRYHAK: Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
HR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

HR. SILBERT: While we are on the record, I think 
it would be helpful if we got to the areas that fall within 
the scope of the comitittee ' s mandate. 

HR. FRYMAN: Hell, that is what we aze doing, Mr. 
Silbert. 

BY HR. FRYMAN' 
e Hz. Godson, as a/NSC consultant, you worked with 
Hz. De Gzaffenzeid. you have testified, and you worked from 
tlae to tine with Halt Raymond, is that cozzeot? 
A Cozzect. 
e In connection with youz NSC wozk. did you meet 



UNCLASSIFIED 



217 



NAME ■■ 
379 
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UOO 
140 1 
>402 
U03 



HIR253000 



Olivet North? 



pmssife 



PAGE 17 



A Y«s. 

2 Had you known Colonel North before you became a NSC 
consultant? 

A Ho. 

S How did you meet Colonel North? 

A I can't remember the exact circumstances, but I met 
most of thii staff at various points over a five-year period. 

S Did any of your work as a NSC consultant involve 
Colonel North? 

A I aa taking a moment to try to recall five years. 
I Pause . ] 

THE WITNESS: I think the answer is no, I don't 
recall any work that X did with the KSC with Colonel North. 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 What was the nature of your contact with him at 
NSC, was it just participating in large meetings with him, 
or did you have a social contact with hin, or was there some 
other sort of contact? 

A I attended staff meetings with him. large staff 
neetings . 

in discussing intelligence collection with members of the 
staff, not specifically with him necessarily^ I was given 
possibilitjr where I would come into contact with him--the 
staff prepared memoranda mS^ about its views about what 



part of my responsibilities was involved 



mussm 



218 



KAn£ = 
MOU 
405 
(406 
1407 
U08 
109 
(410 
141 1 
(412 
413 
(41>4 
(415 
(416 

U17 
(418 

1419 

U20 
(421 
(422 
U23 
■424 
(425 
■426 
(427 
(428 



UNCLASSIRED 



HIR2S3000 IIIVIIil U.^.'^irini PAGE 18 

kinds o£ intelligencs coll«ctlon were n«eded by the United 

States/ so X visited with many staii members to discuss 

that. I had little social contact with him. 

fi What did you understand during the years that you 

. — ' 
knew him as an NSC employee^, what did you understand to be 

his particular areas of responsibility? 

A I think it would be not appropriate in this session 
to discuss this. 

fi Why do you think it would not be appropriate? 
[Conferring with Counsel. 1 

MR. SILBERT: Mr. Godson believes some of the areas 
are classified, he never discussed then with me. 

MR. FRYHAK: Are you familiar with Colonel Korth's 
public testimony before the committee, Mr. Godson? 

A Some parts of it. 

S Did you watch any of the testimony? 

A I was on jury duty during this time, and so I was 
able to watch only segments of it. 

Q Did you read any newspaper accounts of the 
testimony? 

A Yes. 

fi Are you aware of areas of responsibility that 
Colonel Korth had at the National Security Council that were 
not publicly disclosed, to your knowledge, from your viewing 
television? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



219 



NAME: 
"429 
1430 
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(43(4 
(435 
(436 
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(439 
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(4(45 
(4<46 
(4(47 
4(48 
449 
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453 



HIR2S3000 



ONCLASSiflED 



PAGE 19 

A I don't know what ha acknowladgad or what the 
coamittae agreed was within the scope of public hearings on 
that subject. 

2 I don't think that responsive to ray question, Mr. 
Godson. Let me just try it again. Are you aware of areas 
of responsibility of Colonel North and the National Security 
Council that, to your knowledge, from watching television or 
reading newspaper reports, have not been publicly disclosed 
in the connittee hearings? 

(Conferring with Counsel.] 

THE WITNESS: How could I answer that without 
knowing all that was disclosed? 

MR. SILBERT: I still have a problea, you want him 
to try and recall what he either saw snippet^^hile on jury 
duty over the TV, portions he may have read in newspapers, 
and from that determine whether or not there are other areas 
that he was aware of that Colonel North was involved in, is 
that the question? 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 
2 Do you understand my question, Hr . Godson? 
A I am not sure I do. 

C Would the reporter read my question back? 
(The question was read by the reporter.] 
THE WITNESS: I don't recall what he said he was 
responsible for. 



lINCUSSIflED 



220 



HAKE: 
USU 
455 
1*56 
U57 
MSB 
459 
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47 1 
472 
473 
474 
475 
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477 
478 



HIR2S3000 




mKT\ 



ddi 



PAGE 20 



BY HR. FRYMAH: 
2 Uera you aware that ha had responsibilities with 
respect to Central America? 

A I was aware that he had some responsibilities with 
respect to Central America. 

fi So the answer to the question is yes? 

MR. SILBERT: I will tell him not to answer that 
question. He answered the questions to the best of his 
ability. You asked him ii ha had responsibilities, he said 
he had some responsibilities. 

HR. FRYHAN: I take it to be a yes answer. 

MR. SILBERT: It is not a yes answer. The answer 
is words ha gava, it is not yes or no. It is a yes answer, 
I was aware he had soma responsibilities, that is a fait and 
responsive answer to the question. 

BY MR. FRYHAN: 
C Did you have discussions with Colonel North about 
his responsibilities in the area, of Central America. 

[Conferring with Counsel.] 

THE HIINESS: Mould you repeat the question please? 

MR. FRYHAN: Read the question. 

[The question was read by the reporter.] 

THE WITNESS: I had a few conversations with him 
about the situation in Central America. Not about his 
responsibilities . 



UNCLASSIHED 



221 



MAKE : 
479 
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HIR253000 



UHWSSlFe 



PAGE 21 



BY HR. FRYtlAM: 
8 Did any of your work as an NSC consultant involve 
Central America? 

A Not in the specific sense, but as I explained, for 
example, ue are concerned with global intelligence 
requirements . 

2 But not Central America as an area in and of 
itself. 

Correct . 

Is that correct? 
Correct. 

Do you know Robert Earl? 
I don't think so. 
Do you know Robert Owen? 

I don't think so. The reason I said, if I may say 
why, I don't think so, because I have heard those names in 
the newspapers, I don't think I know those individuals. 

Q Did you know any of the individuals--let me rephrase 
that--did you know any of the assistants to Colonel North? 

A There axe 50 to 100 people wandering around in the 
NSC floor, over the period of years I met so many people I 
can't be sure who I met. 
2 Let Ba-- 

A I can't state with assurance that I have never met 
them . 



A 
2 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 



UNCLASSIFIED 



222 



KAnE = 

sou 

505 

506 

507 

508 

509 

510 

511 

512 

513 

SIM 

515 

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517 

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520 

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523 

52U 

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526 

527 

528 



HIR253000 



UNClASSiFiED 



PAGE 22 



2 Let me tty this again. Did you know anyone at the 
NSC who you Knew was an assistant to Colonel Nocth? 

A Other than possibly just saying hello at a meeting/ 
who I didn't know who it was, exactly what his 
responsibilities were, no. 

2 Did you know Fawn Hall? 

A Yes, sir. 

2 Sid you understand she was Colonel North's 
secretary? 

A Yes, I did. 

2 Old you have any association with her in a 
professional capacity? And by that I am trying to 
distinguish merely a social contact and speaking to her in 
the hall, and in your work as NSC consultant, did you have 
any dealings with Fawn Hall? 

A No, other than when she was in a room with other 
secretaries, I would sometimes be in that room. Their 
office complexes changed over a period of time, but I had no 
major dealings with her other than when I was having a 
discussion with Colonel North. 

2 Have you read the Tower Commission report? 

A I have read and studied parts of it, yes. 

MR. FRYHAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Godson 
Deposition Exhibit 2 for Identification a handwritten chart 
which was printed in the Tower Commission report. 



mussm 



223 



NAHE: 
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5(40 
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552 
553 



HIR253000 



llNClASdiiu3 



PAGE 23 



(Th« Following Document was markad as Godson 
Exhibit No. 2 for Identification.] 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 
2 Hr . Godson, I show you Godson Deposition Exhibit 2 
for identification. Whan you looked at the Tower Commission 
report, did you examine that chart? 
A I looked at it. 

2 Did you look at the entities identified in the 
boxes in the chart? 

A I looked at some. 

2 Did you recognize the names of any of those 
entities? 

A Well, you are asking me what I did at that time or 
the very first time. 

2 At the time, the first time you saw the chart, did 
you recognize the names of any of those entities? 

A I recognized very few. I was concerned about one 
because there was. I thought, some potential for confusion 
which in my view would be a totally inaccurate, falsa 
inference that I was connected with one particular box. 
fi Hhloh box was that? 

A Something that appears to say Intl Youth, then I 
think It is y-o-u-t-h. Then I think it says Comn. 

2 When you saw that, you were concerned that that 
might be interpreted to relate to an organization with which 



ONCLASSIFIED 



224 



uNCUSsm 



HAME: HIR253000 llllUi.nwW>* ■■•^ pj^j. ju 



SSM 
555 
556 
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560 
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563 
56tt 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
571 
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573 
57t» 
575 
576 
577 
578 



you had been associated? 

A That is right, false inference would be draun 
especially as a number of individuals had been seeking to 
spread some malicious stories about me prior to this. 

8 Uhat was the organization with which you had been 
associated? 

A Well — 

(Conferring with counsel.] 

MR. SILBERT: You have to be more precise. 
MR. FRYHAN: Mr. Silbert, I find it hard to 
understand your reason for objecting to that question. Mr. 
Godson said in his prior answer that he was concerned that 
this reference might be misinterpreted to apply to soma 
entity with which he had been associated, and I an just 
asking him to what he was referring. 

THE WITNESS: To the fact that I had been involved 
in youth politics and educational activities fox a number of 
years. It wasn't any specific entity. 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 

fi And when you read this ehazt# you were concerned 
that the boK that said Intl Youth Comm would be interpreted 
to apply to youz general activities over the years with 
youth activities. 

A Cozzeot, as it was, as it was misinterpreted. 

S As a matter of fact, you had had a much closer 



UNCLASSIFIED 



225 



NAME: 

S79 
580 
58 1 
582 
583 
584 
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600 
601 
602 
603 



HIR253000 



UNtlASSlFIB 



PAGE 25 



association with an antity that had a name very similar to 
or that had had the phrase ''International Youth'' in it, 
did It not? 

A Over the years I have had associations with many 
organizations that have a combination oi the word 
''international youtW'A./ 

2 What about in 1984 and 1985? 
A Hell-- 

[ Conferring with Counsel. ] 

KR. SILBERT: Ue are going to decline to answer 
those questions until you proiier some relevance to this 
particular organization. We are not going to go into Hr . 
Godson's activities in the youth area. We are not prepared 
for it. That was not one of the areas that was specified, 
and I am letting him answer that specific question about the 
chart . 

But unless it is tied down to an area within the 
areas we are prepared to deal with today, we will not 
respond today. I haven't discussed it with him. haven't 
prepared him for it, and besides I don't think it is 
relevant. I don't mind any questioning that asks whether 
his activities with the youth had anything to do with the 
Kicaragua/Izan matter in the funding for Iran, arms sales, 
diversion of profits to Iran, covert, to Nicaragua, or 
anything about this particular box got on this chart. He 



UNCLASSIFIED 



82-710 0-88-9 



226 



60S 
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6 10 
61 1 
612 
6 13 
6 m 
615 
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6214 
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626 
627 
628 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 26 



can answer that question, even though we aie not prepared 
for that, -(rtf«f% will do so. He can clear it. li you ask of 
hint how the box got there, what it is doing, he will answer 
the question. 

HR. FRYMAN: Let's take this in steps, Mr. Silbert. 

One, your statement that you are unprepared for 
questions about this, I think, should be placed in the 
context of prior discussions that you and I have had about 
the International Youth Commission or related names, and 
specifically there is a letter from you to me, dated May 12. 
1987, which notes our interest in reviewing all documents 
relating to the International Youth Commission, the issuance 
of a separate subpoena for such documents, a separate 
subpoena was issued, investigators from the committee have 
reviewed various such documents at our office, you and I 
have had a variety of discussions about the subject of the 
International Youth Year and the International Youth 
Commission--so I find it hard to believe that this is a 
subject that comes as a surprise to either you or your 
client. 

But be that as it may-- 

HR. SILBERT: i uant to respond to that before you 
ask the question. I am going to respond. I will let you 
complete what you have to say. 

MR. FRYHAK: Well, go ahead and respond, and then I 



UNCUSSIFIED 



227 



NAME: 

629 
630 
63 1 
632 
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63U 
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6U0 
641 
6U2 
6U3 
6i4'4 
6145 
6U6 
647 
6U8 
6149 
650 
651 
652 
653 




:si 




PAGE 27 



HIR253000 
will ask the question. 

HR. SILBERT: Fine. I an not suggesting that ue 
have not been aware, in fact I don't dispute any of the 
facts you mentioned other than the fact that I am concerned 
about responding to questions under oath today, the fact I 
have not gone over this subject with Hr . Godson, in 
preparation for today's testimony, which is a deposition 
under oath. 

Having documents subpoenaed, having an investigator 
come to our office to review certain records, you and I 
having discussions about subject of International Youth is a 
far cry and totally different from adequately preparing a 
witness to testify under oath in a matter that can be of 
considerable importance. 

That is what has not been done, and that is why I 
object. As X said, in addition to that, notwithstanding 
that, I will not object to certain questions that tie right 
into, for example, that chart. Does he know anything about 
that? Let's get on with matters that are pertinent to this 
witness' knowledge as it affects the committee's inquiry. 

Whether it is expressed by Congressman Hamilton in 
his letter to his constituents, which I think accurately 
suaaarizes it, or the somewhat ambiguous language in Housa 
Resolution Number 12-- 

HR. FRYMAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Godson 



UNcuissife 



228 



<r\r 



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655 

656 

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678 




Kliii 



PAGE 28 



HIR253000 
Deposition Exhibit 3 for Identification a I'-j^ter from Daniel 
Cohen to the Honorable Michael Arnacost, on the letterhead 
of the International Youth Year Commission. The letter 
indicates a copy was sent to Roy Godson from Floyd Brown. 

[The Following Document was marked as Godson 
Exhibit No. 3 for Identification. 1 

BY HR. FRYMAH: 
2 Mr. Godson, would you look at Deposition Exhibit 3 
for Identification and tell me if you have seen that 
document before? 

[ Pause . 1 

HR. SILBERT: I am going to object to that question 
on two grounds. One, it is beyond the scope for which we 
are prepared to answer today. The matter, to my Knowledge, 
wasn't covered in the wide ranging, informal interview of 
Mr. Godson where he was not under oath and where he tried to 
be as cooperative as possible and where he voluntarily 
appeared for extensive questioning. 

Secondly, number one, we are not prepared and, 
therefore, we will not proceed on that independent basis: 
number two, having read the letter, rather curiously, I 
can't see the remotest relationship to House Resolution 
Number 12, not in the slightest. It is a political matter 
that has nothing to do, as far as I can tell, with the 
mandate of this committee and is an inappropriate subject of 



HNCUSSm 



229 



NAME ■■ 
679 
680 
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687 
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SIOEIl "" " 

<fT T:Ti^ 'CT>Tre titution, constitute 



HIR253000 
inquiry. j.^ j.^ -» ^-^jt-u^ me T-ojisticu-cion, constitutes 
gross invasion oi Mr. Godson's political and First Amendment 
rights . 

MR. FRYMAN: Would you read back the pending 
question, please. 

[The question was read by the reporter.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Would you answer the question, Mr. Godson? 
[Conferring with counsel.) 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

And is it correct that a copy of that document was 
sent to you, as indicated on the second page? 

MR. SILBERT: That is beyond the scope. He doesn't 
knou whether it was sent to him or who made it. He will not 
answer that question for the reasons previously stated. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 When did you first see that document, Mr. Godson? 
MR. SILBERT: Do not answer that question, please. 
Saatt basis fox the objection. Sane objections. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 Mr. Godson, you testified that you have seen that 
docuaent before, and you will notice the letterhead on top 
of that document is •' International Youth Year Commission .' ' 
Does that refresh your recollection as to when you saw the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



230 



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7 1 1 
712 
713 

7m 

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716 

717 
718 



HIR253000 



mmii'M 



PAGE 



30 



chart uhich is Deposition Exhibit 2 that you are concerned 
about the box that has the phrase ''Intl Youth Comm/ was a 
concern about your association with some specific entity and 
not your association with general youth groups over the 
years ? 

MR. SILBERt: I don't know whether to permit hin to 
answer the question^ Hr . Fryman. Ue have indicated we will 
try to respond to what he knows about that box on Godson 
Exhibit Number 2> as reprinted in the Tower Report, but that 
question was so complex and convoluted I an afraid I didn't 
understand it, and it had words like ' ' associate(' 'I,/ which 
can mean almost anything and is too vague and ambiguous for 
a witness to be able to answer a question of that nature. 

HR. FRynAN: Off the record. 

[Discussion off the record. 1 



mmsw 



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HIR2S3000 
RPTS CANTOR 
DCMN MILTOH 
[ 10:00 1 



PAGE 



31 



Dffi'iSSlFlEO 



MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

MR. SILBERT: I would like the record to reflect 
that ior approximately five or ten minutes there has been an 
exchange priirarily between Mr. Fryman and Hr . Godson, with 
some comments by myself ^»i^ Mr . Godson's counsel relating to 
the scope of the inquiry and specific questions that Hr . 
Fryman claimed he had, to which Mr. Godson made a number of 
specific response(, all dealing with respect to the general 
area of youth, or International Youth Commission. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 Mr. Godson, you were aware, were you not, that 1985 
had been designated as the International Youth Year? 
A Yes. 

2 And in connection with the International Youth 
Year, there was a conference being held in Jamaica in 198S. 
You are aware of that, are you not? 
A Right. 

2 And in connection with the International Youth 
Year, there were various organizations that had been formed, 
one of which was called the International Youth Year 
Commission. Are you aware of that? 



\mmm 



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A Correct. 

2 And you had certain responsibilities and 
involvement in connection uith the International Youth Year, 
and in particular the conierence in Jamaica in 1985, had you 
not? 

A I had various responsibilities. 

THE WITNESS: Ue will step outside. 

[Witness and counsel confer.) 

riR. SILBERT: Back on the record. 

Thank you for the opportunity to consult with Hr . 
Godson. Mr. Fryman. One of the reasons ue had to do that is 
that we are into areas for which I have not prepared the 
witness for today. He will respond to that question, as I 
said before, but I'm not sure it was on the record as part 
of our colloquy. If you ask him what if anything he knows 
about that box on Deposition Exhibit Ho. 2. if he has any 
information, knows anything about how it got there, he will 
answer that, be as cooperative with the committee on matters 
within its scope, and the answer will be definitely no. 

MR. FRYHAK: Hr . Sllbert, one, I will ask the 
questions today the way I want to ask them. 

Secondly, I think maybe we should clarify one 
matter for the record. The fact that you may or may not 
have prepared your witness for certain areas today is 
disturbing, but nevertheless this deposition has been 



UNcmre 



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NAME ■ 
769 
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77 1 
772 
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111 
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HIR253000 



yNCiASsra 



PAGE 33 



scheduled £or at least two weeks. You have been auare 
without any ambiguity of a wide variety of areas of interest 
that this comraittee had in questioning Mr. Godson, including 
specifically the area of the International Youth Year and 
the conference in Jamaica. It was an area that we spent a 
great deal of tma discussing in our interview several 
months ago, and the fact that you and Mr. Godson have not 
discussed that in the last day or so, according to your 
statement, so far as I'm concerned does not place any limit 
on the comnittee inquiring into this area today. 

So far as the letter that you sent to me two days 
ago, as I stated at the beginning today, I don't accept your 
characterizations in that letter. You were informed 
yesterday before the close of business that I didn't accept 
those characterizations, and it is not up to you to impose 
any artificial limits on the areas of inquiry of this 
committee. 

MK. SILBERT: I think you must stay withinVmandate^ 
of the committee and I can't for the life of me, and I will 
listen to a proffer before I make a final decision, see what 
thA International Youth Year has to do with the mandate of 
this committee. Me, as my letter stated, answered and 
responded to every single question asked at the informal 
interview of Mr. Godson, even though, as I said to you in my 
letter, I believe/then and I believe now they were far 



UNCLASS1F1[[ 



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HIR253000 1111191 HjIpJII J I If ?t.QZ 34 

beyond the mandate^ of this conmittee, and with cespect to 
this deposition, as I advised you well before, that I would 
not allow, I would certainly object to any inquiry that is 
not relevant to the stated purposes or legitimate purposes 
of this committee. As far as I know at the present time, 
the Jamaican conference has zero to do with certainly 
Chairman Hamilton's description of what this committee was 
investigating, and also somewhat mora ambiguous language of 
House Resolution Ko . 12. 

MR. FRYHAH: I take it, Hr. Silbert, that you are 
familiar and have looked at Godson Deposition Exhibit 2 for 
identification, which shows a boK with the name 
''International Youth Commission'' and arrows directed to an 
account called IC , and further arrows directed to an account 
called Lake, which I believe you should be aware there is 
testimony before this committee that Lake is a Swiss account 
that was used in connection with arms sales to Iran, and 
financing of the resistance in Nicaragua. 

HR. SILBERT: You may see on your chart a copy of 
an arrow from International Youth Commission down to IC . I 
certainly don't see it. 

KR. FRYMAK: Then I will let the document speak for 
itself. 

MR. SILBERT' To clarify, if you want to ask him 
again if he knows of any connection between Youth Com. and 



wmm 



235 



UNCLASSIRED 



NAME: HIK253000 U I 1 \f i.1 IV/ V/ ■ ■ I h> V page 35 

819 IC 8-A, ask hin . Ha will ansuer the quastion. 

820 HR. fRYHAN: AS I say, Mr. Silbart, I'm asking the 

821 questions today, not you. That will be one of the questions 

822 I ask, but I'n not limiting ray questions to your suggestions 

823 today. li we have to get to the point today of making a 
82M record of questions and y*^^9 directing the witness not to 

825 answer in order to present to the Chairman of the committee, 

826 in order to obtain a direction of the witness to answer and 

827 to make any record that we need for contempt proceedings, we 

828 will do that. 

829 As I indicated to you before the deposition. I 

830 hoped we would not have to go that route, but if that is the 

831 procedure you and Mr. Godson want to follow, we will take 

832 that route. 

833 MR. SILBERT: No one wants to follow a procedure 
83<4 like that. On the other hand, X do expect committee counsel 

835 to ask questions in a reasonably professional way, to get to 

836 the heart of the inquiry, rather than beating around the 

837 bush and asking irrelevant questions that don't go to the 

838 issues before it. 

839 Ulth all due respect, Mr. Fryman, X don't think you 
8U0 axe intending to do that. X certainly respect your attempt 
8>41 to iuliill the committee's responsibilities, but X'm here 
8U2 protecting the person's right to respond to german<> inquiry. 
843 I'm not about to tell you what specific questions to ask. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 36 



I'm suggesting to you that we will respond to any question, 
even though we nay have to interrupt because we were not 
prepared on certain areas, if they appear to be germane to 
the committee's inquiry. We are taking a lot of time to get 
to the heart of some matters, and if he is not telling you 
the truth, then you can prosecute him for perjury, but ask 
him the questions however you want to phrase it, whatever 
orderC you want, about what he knows about this chart or any 
relationship between those entities, and he will answer it. 
That is what we are here to do. 

MR. ncGOUGH: I just want the record to reflect on 
behalf of the Senate committee our position on the matter. 

He have not issued a subpoena to Mr. Godson for 
this deposition. We are here in the hopes we can obviate 
the need for a separate Senate deposition. I don't find the 
objections particularly well-founded, and believe that these 
inquiries are relevant not only to the House inquiry but 
also to the Senate inquiry. 

Again, I'm not deferring to Hr . Fryman on the 
conduct of the deposition, but I certainly find questions 
about entities that may be related to the box on the 
commission chart to be well within the scope of the Senate's 
inquiry, and if need be, would consider issuing a separate 
subpoena in order to get the answers that I think may be 
necessary. I hope we don't come to that. I hope we can 



UNCLASSIRED 



237 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 37 



NAHE: HIR253000 

869 jointly work out the approptiata agreement that may allow 

870 both committees to gat the information that is needed . 

871 HR. BUCK: On behalf of the House ninority, I would 

872 like to state our position. That is that Mr. Godson's past 

873 dealings with any youth organizations are only relevant 
8714 insofar as they have to do with our investigations, and if 

875 Mr. Godson will state for the record what he knows about 

876 this box and any other boxes on this chart, or what he knows 

877 about Oliver North, Colonel North's activities. I think that 

878 should be sufficient. 

879 rurtharmore, although I didn't saa all of Colonel 

880 North's testimony, and Colonel North testified for over 30 

881 hours, I did not saa Colonel North, did not hear Colonel 

882 North testify on this subject that ha was the author of the 

883 document that has been marked as Exhibit 2. 

88U If ha wasn't asked to testify on it, I have trouble 

885 seeing why Mz . Godson is being asked thasa questions. 

886 HR. FRYHAN: Off tha record. 

887 [Discussion off tha record.] 

888 MR. FRYMAN: Back on tha record. 

889 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

890 2 He. Godson, I will coma back later to soma further 
89 1 questions on tha subject of tha International Youth Year, 

892 but with respect to this chart, I have just a few additional 

893 questions at the moment. 



UNCUSSIRFD 



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HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 38 



Prior to seeing this chart in the Tuuer Commission 
Report, had you ever seen it before that time? 

A No. 

2 Had you ever discussed with Colonel North your work 
in connection uith the International Youth Year? 

A I have no recollection whatsoever to having 
discussed this with CB^^BMBBHK^Hl^^BS^ 

2 Have you ever discussed the conference in Jamaica 
in 1985 with Colonel North? 

A I have no recollection of ever having a direct 
conversation with Colonel North about the conference in 
Jamaica or the International Youth activities at that time. 

2 You used the words ''a direct conversation.'* Are 
you trying to distinguish that from an indirect 
conversation? 

A I can't swear that I might not have been discussing 
with other people, ha may have entered the room, it may have 
come up in other fora, but I did not have any direct 
conversations uith him about this subject. 

2 Was youE work on the Jamaica conference in the 
International Youth Year a subject you discussed in the 
offices of the National Security Council? 

A Yes. 

2 And it is possible Colonel North attended or 
overheard some of these conversations? 



DNCMflfO 



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91(1 

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HIR253000 



UNCLASSiFIED -' 



'AGE 39 

A I hava no recollection of hin ever attending any oi 
the meetings . 

2 Who do you recall discussing these matters with in 
the national Security Council offices? 

A A number of staffers that were involved in that 
might have had tangential relationship, such as the people 
in the region who dealt with the Caribbean, 
e Would that be Hr . BurJ(hardt? 
A He uas one. There were several. 

HR. FRYHAM: Would you read back the last answer, 
please . 

[The reporter read the record as requested.! 
BY HR. FRYHAN- 
e Did you discuss the International Youth Year or the 
conference with Walt Raymond? 
A Yes. 

e Did you discuss the International Youth Year or the 
conference with Hr . DeGraf f enreid ? 
A I'm not sure. 

8 Did you ever review with Colonel North any 
organization chart involving activities of his? 
A Ko. 

fi And when you testified that you had not seen Godson 
Exhibit 2 for identification prior to your review of the 
Tower Commission Report, by that answer do you mean that you 



UNCLASSIFIED 



240 



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llNWSSffl 



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had also not seen any chart that was a prior draft of this 
chart or appear to be substantially similar to this chart? 

A The answer is I had never seen this chart or a 
previous chart before. You said review of the Tower 
Commission. I think the Tower Commission the first time I 
saw this was the newspaper<-printed chart of the Tower 
Commission. It was the newspaper of that day. I just 
wanted to clarify it. 

2 But the source was the Tower Commission Report? 
A Correct, the newspaper. I have never seen this 
chart or any chart nor discussed the chart ever with Colonel 
Kort'.i. 

HR. FRYHAH: Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.! 
HR. FRYHAM: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYHAN: 
2 Mr. Godson, are you employed also by the National 
Strategy Information Center? 

A I'm a part-time employee. 

2 What is your position? 

A I'm the director of the Washington office. 

2 And that is a part-time position? 

A That is a part-time position. 

2 How large is the Washington office? 

A Could you be more precise? 



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241 



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00 « 3 * 




HIR253000 IIITSlil-ini^WSS l«-fc» PAGE 4 1 
2 How many employees? 

HR. SILBERT; You want to know how many squara 

feet? 

THE WITNESS: I don't know precisely. There are 
various arrangements with research staff, research fellows 
who come and do projects there. Approximately 10. 
BY MR. FRYHAK: 

2 Would that be approximately 10 full-time employees? 

A In any particular year? 

2 Yes. 

A It would vary between 5 and 10. 

2 Does the HSIC also have offices in New York? 

A Its main office is in New York City. 

2 And is it only the two offices. New York and 
Washington? 

A Those are the only two offices . It has 
repr asentatives or consultants in other cities. 

2 Is the number of employees in New York larger than 
the number in Washington? 

A I don't know the answer to that. It may change 
over the years. You will have to specify which year and I 
would have to check. 

2 Say in 1986 

A I just don't know. 

2 Do you consider the New York office the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



242 



HIR253000 



UNClASSife 



PAGE 42 



HAHE 

99U headquarters office? 

995 A Yes. 

996 e Your title is director of the Washington office. 

997 To uhora do you report in the KSIC? 

998 A To the president and the vice president. 

999 2 Who is the president? 
1000 A Frank Barnett. 

100 1 e What is the governing structure of the 

1002 organization, and by that I mean, is there a board of 

1003 directors? 
100<4 A Yes. 

1005 2 That Hr . Barnett reports to and ultimately you 

1006 report to? 

1007 A Yes, I think so. 

1008 2 And is there a chairman of the board? 

1009 A I don't know. 

1010 2 You don't know who the chairman is? 
10 11 A Ko . 

1012 2 Do you meet with the board of directors 

1013 periodically? 
lOlM A Yes. 

10 15 2 What are your responsibilities as director of the 

10 16 Washington office, briefly? 

1017 A To provide general guidance to the full-time staff, 

1018 who also report to the president and the vice president in 



UNCLASSIFIED 



243 



\msmi 



HknE HIR253000 ■ E 4 W i ^ !__ T.!.; ^ fc 3 u 1 4J :J PAGE 4 3 

1019 Heu York, and to engaga in research which is supported by 

1020 the National Strategy Information Center, and publications, 

1021 and I guess also to provide public--to be available to the 

1022 public, to the press, to provide information about my 

1023 specialties of the National Strategy Information Center. 
1021* e Uould you say that the primary function of the 

1025 National Strategy Infornation Center is an educational 

1026 function? 

1027 A Yes, I uould. 

1028 Q And that involves various research projects and 

1029 publications, various materials? 

1030 A Organizing conferences and seminars. 

1031 2 And do the subject matters of the activities center 

1032 on foreign policy matters? 

1033 A Exclusively. 

103(4 8 When did you fixst become associated with the NSIC? 

1035 A 1965 as a graduate student. 

1036 S That is uhen you were at Columbia? 

1037 A Correct. 

1038 2 Do you know when the NSIC was founded? 

1039 A 1962. 

10>40 S At the time you first became associated with the 

lOm organization, do you know if William Casey had any 

10'(2 affiliation with the organization? 

10M3 A I believe he was a director at that time. 



UNCUS.SS!n! 



244 



NAME: 

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HIR2S3000 




SS'iP'' 




PAGE 



44 



S Did you know Hr . Casey at that time? 

A Are you asking did X know him when I went beiore? 

2 Did you know him in 1965? 

A I don't believe I did. 

2 When did you iiist meet Mr. Casey? 

A I can't remember exactly which year, but he stopped 
being the director of KSIC when he joined the Hixon 
administration, which was the election of 1968. 

S Did he ever resume as a director? 

A Ko. 

2 Had you met Mr. Casey by 1968? 

A If X had, it would have just been to say hello. X 
can't say X didn't, but X don't recall ever having any major 
conversations with him. 

2 Xs it your understanding that Kz . Casey was one of 
the individuals who were instrumental in founding the NSXC? 

A Could you define ''founding'' for me? X don't mean 
to be difficult, because he was a lawyer, and X think he 
provided legal services for the National Strategy 
Xnforaation Centex. He was one of the lawyers, if not the 
lawyer. X just don't know enough to answer the question 
specifically. 

fi So your answer suggests that you really had no clear 
understanding about his role in the origin of the 
organization, is that correct? 



IINCLJISSJFIED 



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PAGE MS 



A Correct, but I have heard it repeatedly stated that 
Frank Barnett and naury Liebman. a lawyer in Chicago, uere 
the tuo principals who founded KSIC . 

2 Is fir. Liebman with the firm of Sidney and Austin? 
A I think so. 

2 And it's your understanding that Mr. Casey had no 
official association with the NSIC after 1968? 

A No official responsibilities, that's correct. 
As an officer? 
Correct . 

Or as a director? 
Correct . 

AT the time you became a consultant to the National 
Security Council in 1982, what was the nature of your 
association with Mr. Casey, if any? Had you had a 
professional association with hin in your position as the 
Washington director of the NSIC, for example? 

MR. SILBERT: I don't know what that means. 
HR. FRYMAN: Let me withdraw the question and I 
will rephrase it. 

BY HR. FRYHAK: 
S Did you ever have any discussions with Hr . Casey 
about your beconing a consultant to the National Security 
Council ? 



No 



IINCUSSIFIED 



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HIR253000 **.' a V^n«> ?,1 ."!SB 13 HI PAGE 46 

2 Are you auace whether or not he had any role in 
your becoming a consultant? 

A I'm not auare that he had any role. 

S In 1982> the year that you became a consultant to 
tWe NSC, do you recall ii you had had any dealings with rir . 
Casey in that year? 

HR. SILBERT: Can you be a little more helpful on 
the word ''dealings'*? I don't knou what that means. Did 
he see him on the street? 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 To the best of your recollection, in 1982 do you 
recall any conversation that you had with Mr. Casey? 

A No, I don't recall. 

2 Do you recall participating in any meetings with 
fir . Casey? 

A ny responsibilities pertained to intelligence 
matters. I was also a consultant to the President's Foreign 
Intelligence Advisory Board and still am. I can't say I 
didn't. I mean. I can't say whether I saw Mr. Casey at all 
in 1982. It would just be impossible. 

2 Did you have meetings with Mr. Casey after you 
became a consultant to the National Security Council? 

A Ii you mean meetings alone--is that what you mean? 

2 Yes, let's say individual meetings. 

A In connection with classified work I do — classified 



UNCLASSIFIED 



247 



NAHE- 
1119 
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1 1214 

1 125 
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HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 47 



work unrelated to the subjects of this investigation, I had 
some meetings with him. 

2 You had some individual meetings? 

Meetings, yes, a feu. 

When was the last time you saw Mr. Casey? 

Other than sort of passing him in the corridor. 



A 

e 

A 

right? 

i Yes. 

A Or seeing him in the men's or something like that. 

Maybe a couple of years before his death. 

2 Did you call Mr. Casey by his first name? 

A It uould depend on the circumstance. 

S But there uere occasions when you were on a fiist- 
nane basis with fir. Casey? 

A Oh , yes . 

2 Did you ever participate in any meetings with Mr. 
Casey and Colonel Korth. just the three of you? 

A Ko. 

2 nr . Godson, you are also a teacher, are you not? 

A Correct. 

2 Where do you teach? 

A Georgetown University. 

S What is your title? 

A I'm an associate professor of government. 

2 How long have you been at Georgetown? 



II 



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PAGE 48 



A Since the late 1960s. 

2 Did you go to Georgetown after getting your Ph.D. 
from Columbia, immediately after? 

A I was at Georgetown when I got my Ph.D. 

S You were a teaching fellow? 

A Yes, sir. No, I was just teaching. 
[Discussion off the record. 1 
nR. FRYKAH: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYHAN: 

S Your field, you have indicated, Mr. Godson, is 
government and international relations; is that correct? 

A Correct. 

2 And you have had an area of concentration for some 
time with respect to intelligence matters? 

A Intelligence studies. 

S And is that a subject of courses that you teach at 
Georgetown? 

A Correct. 

2 And have you also published books and articles in 
that subject area? 

A Yes. 

fi In connection with your work teaching at the NSIC 
and also your work from 1982 to 1987 at the National 
Security Council, did you maintain more than one office or 
did you just have an office at the university? 




249 



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HIR253000 



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PAGE U9 



A My main office is at tha university, but of course 
the National Strategy Information Center has offices so I 
have a desk there. 

e And did you have a third office at the National 
Security Council? 

A No, I didn't. 

2 So in this period of time you had basically an 
office at Georgetown and an office at tha NSIC? 

A To say that I had an office, NSIC has an office. I 
used their office. 

2 Did you have a private office at tha NSIC? 

A The offices are used interchangeably by the people 
who are visiting and so on, so it depends on your definition 
of having an office. 

e Do you have a secretary? 

A There is a secretary for tha office, and she 
serves, she also takes care of my office needs. 

2 That is at the HSIC? 

A But she takes care of a number. We don't have the 
luxury of one secretary for one parson. 

2 And do you also have a secretary at Georgetown? 

A There are secretaries in the department for all. 
In other words, the sane arrangement, secretary servicing 
several different people. 

2 Uhat sort of records do you maintain of meetings 



ONCLASSiFiEO 



250 



MAKE: 

1 19H 
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UNCUSSIRtD 



HIR253000 mini Mvlillfl II IJ PAGE 50 
that you have and also telephone conversations? For 
example, at the NSIC, does the secretary maintain a record 
of phone conversations that you place or that are incoming 
calls to you, if you knou? 

A I don't think she maintains a record of calls. I'm 
sure she doesn't. Sometimes I place my own calls. 
Sometimes she places calls. Sometimes other secretaries. 
There isn't one secretary that would be doing that. 

8 Do you maintain yourself a record of your phone 



calls? 
A 
2 
A 



Ho. 



Do you maintain a record of your meetings? 
Kot a precise--! mean for a while. I have a diary 
for the year which has some of my meetings. There is no 
single source for all of my meetings. I don't maintain 
such . 

2 What sort of calendar do you maintain? 

A I carry a small notebook, an annual thing which X 
generally junk. 

2 And you note your appointments? 

A Some of them, not all. 

2 You have a desk calendar as well? 

A Ko. 

2 Hhat was the other calendar you were referring to, 
or I understood you were referring to a second calendar? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



251 



NAME ■■ 
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HIR253000 



UNCUSSifiB 



PAGE 



51 



A I didn't refer to a second calendar. 
2 So the only calendar you maintain is the pocket 
calendar that you carry with you? 
A Correct. 

2 Do you keep those calendars after the end of the 
year ? 

A I generally throw them away. I keep them for a 
while for tax purposes and that sort of thing and get rid of 

them . 



2 
A 
2 
A 



00 you have the calendar for 1986? 

No. 

1985? 

You asked ne 1986. Ho, generally those calendars I 
have junked. 

2 Just so th« record is clear, Hr . Godson, the 1986 
calendar that you maintained that reflected your 
appointments, you have destroyed that calendar? 

A Right. 

2 When did you destroy that? 

A It was some months ago. 

S And do you still have the pocket calendar for 1985? 

A Ho. I generally use them for the first feu months 
of the year to sort of recollect for tax purposes or expense 
purposes, if I took a trip where I went that particular day, 
and then I generally have no reason to keep that kind of 



lINCUSSIflED 



252 



NAME: 
12UU 
12U5 
12U6 
1247 
12M8 
12(49 
1250 
1251 
1252 
1253 
125H 
1255 
1256 
1257 
1258 
1259 
1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
126U 
1265 
1266 
1267 
1268 



HIR2S3000 



IINCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 



52 



thing . 

2 Do you have any record at this time of your 
appointments in 1985 and 1986? 

A For me personally? 

S Or are you auare of any record? 

A I don't have it. There would be vague diary--! 
mean, of projects in the office that might contain some 
appointments. Usually it would be inaccurate because nobody 
knows all of my appointments. As I say, I'm wandering 
between offices. 

Q These are diaries maintained at the NSIC? 

A Correct. 

2 Who maintains the diaries you are referring to? 

A The secretary in the office there. 

2 What is the name of the secretary? 

A Jill Fall. 

2 And did she maintain those diaries during 1985 and 



1986? 



Yes 



A 

2 And so far as you are aware, those are the only 
records that are in existence today of any meetings that you 
had in 1985 and 1986? 

A Yes, that's right. 

2 Are you aware of any records that are in existence 
today of any phone calls that you made in 1985 and 1986? 



iiNCUSSife 



i 



253 



NAHE' 
1269 
1270 
127 1 
1272 
1273 
12714 
1275 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
128>4 
1285 
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1287 
1288 
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HIX253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 53 



No. 



& 

fi Do you know Elliott Abraits? 

A Kas. 

fi Uh«n did you ilist iiaat Ki . Abrams? 

A Oh, boy. I think whan ha was an aida to Sanatoc 
Jackson of Washington. 

fi Did you hava any contact with Mr. Abrans in 
connaction with your work as a consultant to tha National 
Security Council? 

A I don't think so. 

fi Did you avar participata in any naating with Mr. 
Abraits and Colonal North? 

A No. 

fi Did Colonal North avax ask you to bacone involved 
in any iund-raising activities? 

A Ha asked ii I could assist in raising funds! 



fi When did he ask you to do that? 

A I can't recall the exact nonth. I can barely 
renember the year. 

Q Hhat was tha year? 

A I think it's 1985. 

& How did the subject cone up? 

A As I recall. I was working one day in the 
intelligence directorate, the Oiiioe of the Intelligence 




mm 



254 



NAn£: 
1294 
1295 
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1300 
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ISOU 
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HIR2S3000 



UNEUSSifltO 



PAGE 54 



Directocate of the NSC, and he and an HSC staifet who also 
worked in that directorate asked me if I uould be able to 
give assistance. 

i Who was the other person? 

A Vincent Cannistraro. 

2 What was his position at the NSC? 

A He was I think also a director of intelligence 
programs. X think by that time DeGraf f enreid was the senior 
director and he was a director. 

2 And you worked with Mr. Cannistraro in your 
consulting activities? 

A Yes. 

S AJ the time Mr. North nade this rec^uest, where did 
the meeting take place? 

A As I stated, I can't recall whether it was in his 
office. North's office, but my recollection is it was in Mr. 
Cannistraro ' s office. 

2 Here you called into the office with the two of 
them being there? 

A I can't remember exactly, but my recollection is I 
was working actually in the complex of offices of the 
Intelligence Directorate and Cannistraro and North asked to 
talk with na. 

2 They asked you to come into some office and meet 
with them? 



UNCLASSIFIE! 



255 



KAKE 

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1322 
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HIX253000 



ONSUSSinEO 



PAGE 55 

» Yas. a bunch of oiiicas th«r«. I night hava ba«n 
sitting thata working on sonathing. I just don't recall tha 
spacific tlraa. 

2 Do you racall H it was Cannistraro who asked you 
to meet with than or North? 
A I can't. 

2 Ona of tha two, and thara was a meeting with just 
tha three of you? 

A North clearly was asking aa to do this. It was 
clearly North was asking. I can't racall tha specifics of 
who asked who to sit in what rooit. 

S Hhat did you understand was tha reason for 
Cannistraro being present? 

A I didn't have any. I don't know. 

2 But most of tha talking was by North? 

A Yes. 

2 What did ha say as best you racall? 

A Ha said that — I was generally familiar with ^^^^^| 
[anyway. Ha just said, "You are familiar with 
'*' and would I ba able to be of soma 
assistanca, and that for various reasons the government was 
unable to ba of assistanca. 

S Did h« indicate why ha was asking you to? 

A No. 

2 Do you have any information that indicates why ha 







256 




KAHE: HIR2S3000 UlflULfilJil 

1344 was asking you? 

1345 A No. 



IF!! 



PAGE 56 



UNCUSSIHED 



'I 

i 



257 



NAHE: 
13U6 
13U7 
13M8 
1349 
13S0 
13S1 
1352 
1353 
13514 
1355 
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1359 
1360 
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1365 
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1368 
1369 
1370 



HIR253000 
RPTS THOMAS 
DCMN GLASSMAP 
[ 11 : 30 a.m. I 



PAGE 



57 










BY HR. FRYHAH: 

Q Did you ask any quAstionst 

A I guttss I would hava asked how much money he was 
talking about. I know for what period oi time. The normal 
questions one would ask, ii somebody was asked to assist 
somebody. That is about all. 

2 HoH much money did he say was involved? 

A I can't recall precisely, but I think it was in the 
range oi «20,000 a month. 

2 For what period oi time? 

A He didn't specify. He said he couldn't, there was 
no way of specifying. 

2 Did ha indicate what tha money was going to be used 
for? 

A Mot really, no. 




I didn't find it a remarkable thing. 

8 Did you tell him in this first meeting that you 
would help? 

A No. I didn't. 



258 



NAHE: 
137 1 
1372 
1373 
137t4 
137S 
1376 
1377 
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1381 
1382 
1383 
138U 
138S 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
1394 
1395 



mil fe> ^ ^1^'4 p 



HI112S3000 2|5^?T^ ?„.?,^. 't- :?•?;■ ^"'i page S8 

fi What did you say? 

A I would say I would hava to think about it and sae 
whathat I could, X would ba abla to ba of assistanca. I an 
not waalthy mysali, so I would hava to sea whathat I would 
iind soma paopla who would ba willing to contributa to 
whatavai/ what I thought was a worthy causa. 

Q Did you talk with anyona alsa about whathar you 
should gat involvad in this? 

A No, I don't think I did. 

e How long did it taka you to dacida whathar oe not 
you should gat involvad? 

A Wall, thaza waza two issuas: ona, whathat I 
should, and in tatns oi whathar I ought to, and a sacond 
ona. whathar I could practically ba of any assistanca. X 

was halping ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^la 
worthy causa, so X dacidad quickly in principla that this 
was a good idaa. Tha ''could'* part took ma soma tima to 
talk to paopla. 

A ^^^^^^^^^1 Is Xs a 

ralavant quastion? 

KK. SXLBERT' X would lika to know what tha 
ralavanoa of that is, as a mattar of fact. What doas 

hava to do with this procaading? 
nx. nc G0U6H: Xt is ay quastlon. Xf tha objaction 




\mMm 



259 



1396 

1397 

1398 

1399 

lUOO 

IMOI 

1402 

1403 

1(40(4 

1U0S 

1(406 

1(407 

1(408 

1U09 

1(410 

1(41 1 

1412 

1413 

1414 

1415 

1416 

1417 

1418 

1419 

1420 







HIR253000 Wl 1 VI*' ■\#vu'i:< » J^ W PAGE 59 
had ba«n mada bafora tha quastion was ansuatad, i would hava 
baan happy to axplain it. I will axplain it now. Hr . 
Godson indicata^it was a worthy causa that ha wantad to 
help, and tha coramittea is entitled to know whether, in 
^^c^'^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kor he 
raising nonay. It saans iairly straightforward, I didn't 

what^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l but onlyl 

>r which you ara raising money? 
HR. SILBERT: »H right. I think you ought to 
apologize for tha question. 

MR. nc GOUGH: I don't think tha question was 
inappropriate. Tha next question could hava been and was 
not asked, when a person raises aonay 





I don't think it is any inquiry into] 

^^^ and I would not 
think any apologias ara nacassazy. 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 

^/ 
e Hz. Godson, you divida/youz decision into two 

1^ 
aspects? 

A Wall, in technically — 

e Row long did it take you to reach a decision with 
raspact to both aspects? Aza wa talking about a period oi 
less than a weak? 

A No. longer, it took longaz. 



IIMC! ACCfClcn 



260 



1U21 

m22 

1M23 
14214 
1U2S 
m26 
11427 
11428 
1429 
1(430 

mai 

1(432 
1(433 
143(4 
1(435 
1(436 
1(437 
1(438 
1<439 
1(4(40 
14(41 
1442 
1443 
1444 
1445 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR2S3000 llllll.l "-^B^glTjry PAGE 60 
fi Savaral w«aks? 
k Yas. 

S Old you consult with anyona als« in making this 
dftclsion. or did--th« two aspacts of this decision-- 

A No> I inmadiataly, aitar I dacided to do this, I 
sat out, not that vary minuta, I sat out to ask somaone who 
I thought would ba syapatha tic, might ba sympathetic to 
supporting ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

2 You maan to assist you in fund-raising. 

A That is corract. 

fi Baiora wa gat to that, Z am focusing at tha momant 
on you parsonally making tha daclsion uhathar or not to gat 
involvad. Is that a daclsion you mada by yoursalf, or did 
you consult with anyona alsa in making that daclsion? 

A I don't racall discussions with anyona alsa. X 
ragardad It as a sansitlva mattar, and I did not wij^h to 
indicata to othar paopla that I was involvad in assisting 




fi Tha procaads of tha daclsion as to whathar or not 
you should ba involvad at all took mora than a waak is your 
racollaotlen? 

A Kot whathar I should ba Involvad, not tha formative 
quastlon. but whathar Z could amplrioally do anything. 

S Lat ma phrasa it and ask it anothar way. 

Hhan and what was tha naxt discussion you had with 




EL>i 



261 



KAnc> 
mu7 

114149 
114S0 
msi 

1>4S2 
1"453 

msu 

114SS 
114S6 

11457 

11458 
1U59 
11460 
11461 
11462 
11463 
114614 
11465 
m66 
11467 
11468 
11469 
1U70 



HIR253000 




lASSiFiED 



PAGE 61 



Colcnal Kotth in zasponsa to his original zaquest? 

1 Aitar I had ascartainad that it night ba possibla 
that I found somaona who might ba willing to halp who had 
tha potantial to talk to peopla, who would support] 

I called hia or saw hin whan I was at KSC, or soma 
other tina I brought it to his attention orally. 

fi So that tha ' 'could' ' part of tha decision-making 
process, in your nind, involved finding out whether there 
was someone else who could assist you in tha fund-raising? 

A Correct. 

2 And did you only discuss that aspect with one other 



parson? 
A 
fi 
A 
C 
A 
fi 
A 

Richard 



Before I want back to Korth? 

Before you want back to North. 

Yes. 

Hho was that person? 

Tarry Sleasa. 

How had you known Hz. Slease? 

nr. Sleasa had been a lawyer for Richard Sc' 



/^>pf: 



and 



had baan a donoz to tha National Strategy 
Infornation Canter. I had also gotten to know Hr . Slease as 
a personal iriand; and in his- capacity as a personal friend, 
I want to him. 

fi You described to hi* what Colonel North had said to 

you? 



.MOwil iLiJ 



262 



KANE: 

11471 
1472 
1473 
1474 
1475 
1476 
1477 
1478 
1479 
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1495 







HIR2S3000 UiflULKwyjf ^LU PAGE 62 

A A version of It to sea If h* was at all intarasted. 

Q Ha Indicated ha was? 

A Yes. 

2 And at that point> you want back to Colonal NorLIi? 

A That is correct. 

2 mentioned ^^^^^^^^^^P in one of your 
H&d Colonel Korth referred to ^^^^^^^^^H in your original 
discussion with him? 

A I can't remember whether ha did.^ 

and so I don't know whether ha 
referred to^^^Bor I was aware of the role 




fi Was it your understanding that you were to raise 
funds that were to be placed at the disposal of 



Kut he is talking about 





fi Had Colonal North indicated any particular part of 

chat was to receive this money? 
A Ko. 

fi Ha had indicated it was to be for food and similar 
purposes? 

A Maliara activities, yas. 




yNCUSSlFlEO 



263 



NAHE 
1(496 
11497 
1U98 
1499 
1S00 
1501 
1502 
1503 
1504 
1505 
1506 
1507 
1508 
1509 
1510 
151 1 
1512 
1513 
151U 
1515 
1516 
1517 
1518 
1519 
1520 



HIR2S3000 



ONCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 63 




fi How long aftar your initial conversation with 
Colonel North was your call to Hr . Slease? 

A I can't remambaz. 
Mora than a waak? 

Obviously it wasn't months, but I don't remember, 
Has this a faca-to-iaca conversation with Hr . 



fi 
A 
S 

Slease? 
A 
fi 
A 



I am almost certain it would hava been. yes. 
Was this in y^ittsburgh? 

No, I suspect it was In Washington. i rarely 

P 



travel to ylittsburgh, and so I think I have been in 

P ^ 

Pittsburgh only once in iive years. 

fi In any case, you believe it was a iace-to-face 
conversation with nr . Slease? 

A Yes. 

fi Just the two of you? 

A Yes. 

fi He indicated he would help or would try to help? 

A He was interested in principle, but he wished to 
hear it from — this was something that was important for the 
national interest. 

fi Did you indicate a desire to obtain funds from Hr . 




iJLri'U-; 



;5!BE0 



264 



NAHE: 

1521 
1522 
1523 
1524 
1525 
1526 
1527 
1528 
1529 
1530 
1531 
1532 
1533 
153M 
1535 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
15i«0 

ism 

15>42 
15i«3 
15)414 
15U5 



HIR253000 




UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 6t4 



or one of his foundations? 

A No. Now ara you asking me did I at that very 
monent? 

Q Yes. 

A No, as a matter of fact, I recall specifically 
discussing we were not going to ask Hr . St i ui^^ or any of the 
f oundationyf or the funds . 

S This was in the first conversation? 

A I can't recall whether it was in the first or 
subsequent conversation, but I suspect it was in the first. 

S What was the reason for that? 

A Hell, Mr. ffrayn had been very generous in 
supporting a number of organizations, particularly the 
National Strategy Information Center, and we thought that we 
should ask other people for contributions. 

Q In the initial discussion with tlr . Slease, was 
there any comment about who else might be solicited? 

A No, not to my recollection. 

S After your conversation with Hr . Slease, then you 
go back to Colonel North, and you report back you have found 
someone who may help in the f und|'raising . 

A Correct. 

fi Did you also report back to Hr . Cannistraro? 

A I can't recall. No, I don't think so. 

a To the best of your recollection, it was, the 



UNCLASSiREl 



265 



NAME ■ 
15U6 
1547 
1SU8 
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1558 
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1567 
1568 
1569 
1570 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR2S3000 ■■l«||| 14.1. Ill II II PAGE 65 
second convarsation was just you and Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

2 And-- 

A Mr. Cannistraio wasn't there. You were asking 
whether I ever told him I had subsequently found somebody 
that might be interested. I can't remember that, but I know 
that second conversation, my best recollection, it was with 
North alone . 

2 Did you tell hin that Mr. Slease wanted to meet 
with Colonel North? 

A Mr . Slease asked to meet not only with Colonel 
North but he didn't know who Colonel North was in — don't 
think he had ever heard the name, he wanted to have it irom 
a more senior person in the National Security Council, and 
so I suggested if Colonel North wanted to proceed, he had to 
ask for a meeting with Hr . McFarlane for Hr . Slease to hear 
from Kr . McFarlane this was an important thing to do. 

2 At that time# what was Mr. HcFarlane's position? 

A He was the Assistant to the President for National 
Security. 

2 This Is Robert McFarlane we are talking about? 

A Yes. 

fi Had you worked directly with Hr . McFarlane in your 
role as a consultant to the NSC? 

A Worked directly? Could you be more precise? 



UNClOFe 



266 



1571 
1572 
1573 
1S7U 
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1576 
1577 
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1581 
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1583 
158(4 
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1587 
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1589 
1590 
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1593 
159U 
1595 



HIR2S3000 



yuciiSSifiEO 



PAGE 66 



2 In your work as a consultant, did you have 
individual meetings with Mr. McFarlane? 

A Rarely. 

2 Did you prepare memoranda ior Mr. McFarlane? 

A Yes, either directly or through Mr. De 
Graff enreid ' s office or some other member of the staff. 

2 Had you known Mr. HcFarlane before you became a 
consultant to the NSC? 

A I don't think so. 

2 Had Hr . McFarlane had any association with the NSIC 
that you are aware of? 

A I think he knew Mr. Barnatt. He worked for Senator 
Tower, I think, as a staffer on the Armed Services 
Committee » I think he may have known Mr. Barnett. I don't 
think I knew him at that time. 

2 Do you know if Hr . ncTazlane at that time had any 
association with Georgetown? 

A Kot to my knowledge. 

2 You were not aware of such an association? 

A Right. 

2 So your only association with Mr. HcFarlane had 
ba«n through youz work at KSC. 

A He had been an assistant to Hilliaa Clark, and so I 
got to know him in that capacity. 

2 You suggested to Colonel Korth that Hr . Slease 




267 



UNCUSSIFIED 



MAFIE: HIR253000 l||ll|| Hl|l]|| II U PAGE 67 



1S96 
1597 
1598 



might be able to help, but thaie would have to be a raeeting 
with Mr. rtcFarlane or someone of his statute. 
A Right. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



268 



NAHE: 
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HIR253000 



DCMK GLASSNAP 



UNCUSS 



PAGE 68 



8 What was Colonel North's response? 

A He said he would try to arrange such a meeting and 
subsequently did. 

8 He got back to you and said HcPailane is available? 

A Tried to figure out even dates when Mr. Slease was 
in Washington, yes. 

8 And did you set up such a meeting? 

A There was such a meeting. A combination of all of 
us setting it up. 

8 Did you maK« the call to rir . Slease? 

A Yes. 

8 The call to Ilr . rtcFarlane? 

A No , I didn't make the call to McFarlane. 

8 The call to Colonel North? 

A Yes, sir. 

8 And you sort of worked out the various schedules? 

A Yes. 

8 So everyone could get together for a meeting? 

A Exactly. 

8 Did you attend that meeting? 

A X did. 

8 Hho else attended? 

A Morth. McFarlane. Slease and myself. 



IINCUSSIFIED 



269 



162U 
1625 
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1631 
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16145 
16146 
1647 
16>48 



HNWSSlfe 



PAGE 69 



HIR2S3000 

2 And was that hald in tha National Security Council? 

A In tha Situation Room. 

2 In tha Situation Rooii? 

A Yas, sit. 

S Do you tacall tha data oi this maating? 

A No . 

Q How long did it last? 

A Not vaiy long. 

2 Undar 15 ninutas? 

A Around that tina . 

fi What do you zacall was said in that maating? 

A Tha necassity ioz supporting] 




e Who said what? 

A nr . HcFarlana said that. Hz. HcFarlana did most of 
tha talking. 

fi And how did ha axplain tha nacassity oi supporting 



A I an not avan sura I was paying that much attention 
to that. It was a maating that was dasignad for Itr . Sleasa 
to haar this, and I don't--but talk aboutH^^^^^^| and ha 
axplainad that, within tha bounds now oi our unolassiiiad 
discussion, that it was funds ior] 




UNCUSSiflED 



270 



HknZ' 

16149 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165U 
1655 
1656 
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1658 
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1660 
1661 
1662 
1663 
166U 
1665 
1666 
1667 
1668 
1669 
1670 
1671 
1672 
1673 



HIR2S3000 




Hz. Slaas* ask«d if he was. xi ha ware in fact able 
to iind somabody who could do thxs> how would this ba done? 
And ha was told that Colonel Koith knew how it could be 
dona, he would instruct na as to how the nonay could 
physically ba tzansiazred if such noney ware to become 
available . 

2 Was there any discussion at this meeting of the 
mechanics of transferring the money? 

A Ko, there was not. 

2 It was left that Colonel Nozth could provide that 
inf ozmation-- 

A Yes. six. 

2 --later on? 

A That is right. 

2 What else was said at that meeting? 

A That is all I recall. 

2 What did Colonel North say? 

A I can't recall him saying vezy such. 

2 It was basically a presentation by Hr . HcFarlana? 

A Yes. as I recall. He may have interjected pieces 
oi — as I said, I didn't — I wasn't there to be briefed, so I 
wasn't paying that much attention. 

2 I take it there weren't any slides shown at this 



UNCLAS! 



IFIED 



271 



NAnE 
1674 
1675 
1676 
1677 
1678 
1679 
1680 
1681 
1682 
1683 
1684 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
1694 
1695 

. 1696 
1697 
1698 



• mmiM 



HIR253000 i|R^H«i aV- '^ .■'-l«5 PAGE 7 1 
nesting? 

A No, thaia ware no slidas. 

2 What did Mr. Slease say? 

A As I said, he listened, he asked some questions, 
but then it was left he would think about whether he could 
in fact do this, and he would get back to me, and then if 
there was in fact somebody who was available to contribute, 
then I would get in touch with Colonel North. 

2 And what is the next discussion you recall with nr . 
Slease after this meeting about this matter? 

A He parted company, and we agreed ha would be back 
in touch with ma if ha was able to be of assistance. 

2 Did he get back in' touch with you? 

A Yes. sir. and ha said ha had thought ha had one or 
two potential donors, and how would one physically do this? 

2 Did he identify the donors? 

A I can't remember. It wasn't important to me in 
that sense, because wa agreed it wasn't going to be Mr. 



A 



and I knew ha had many contacts in his personal life 



with people who were wealthy and believed in worthy causes. 

2 Did he identify the amount? 

A No, it wasn't, ha knew we were talking here about 
abova «20,000. Ha knew it was about «20,000 a year we 
needed, obviously to ma I didn't have to ask him. 
KR. SILBERT: You mean «20,000 a year? 




272 



HAHE : 
1699 
1700 

170 1 
1702 
1703 
1704 
1705 
1706 
1707 
1708 
1709 
1710 

171 1 
1712 
1713 
17 m 
1715 
1716 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 



HIR2S3000 



iiNCUSsra 



PAGE 72 



THE WITNESS: A month. 
BY HR. rRYHAH: 

2 Had that $20,000 a month amount been discussed 
again in the meeting with Ki . KcFailane? 

A I don't recall it necessarily coming up there, but 
X had informed him it was around that range; we weren't 
talking about S100 and not «1 million. 

2 He got back to you and indicated he might have a 
contributor or contributors, but as far as you recall, he 
didn't identify the contributors? 

A Correct. 

2 And he asked you for information about the 
mechanics of transferring the money? 

A Yes. 

2 What did you do then? 

A I went back to Korth and asked him how one would do 
it. 

2 Hhat did North say? 

A He told me that there was a man who was able to do 
this, he was discreet and reliable, and I should call him, 
that he, Korth, would tell him to expect a call from me, a 
man who I didn't know before. So he would say I was going 
to call, and I did. 

2 Hhat was the nan's name? 

A Richard Killer. 



UNCLASSinED 



273 



MAKE: 
172M 
1725 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
173U 
1735 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 
17H0 
17141 
1742 
17M3 
17t»i4 
17t«5 
17M6 
1747 
17U8 



HIR253000 



UMMSSIFIED 



PAGE 73 



8 He gave you a phone nurabec of rtt . Miller? 

A Exactly. 

C So you called Mr. Millez either the sane day or 
shortly, or a day or so later? 

A Yes. 

2 And said, in substance. Colonel North asked rae to 
call? 

A Correct. 

2 I am calling about — 

A Wouldn't have said, would not have said over the 
telephone what the subject was, but X said had he heard that 
I was going to call you, and, yes, he agreed to get 
together . 

S And where did you meet with Hr . tliller? 

A Hy recollection is that we met--to find a suitable 
tine, ny recollection is we net in his office of Kational 
Strategy Center and had a sandwich, that is my recollection. 

fi This was the first time you had ever seen Richard 
Hiller? 

A Correct. 

e What did he tell you at this first meeting? 

A Kell. we discussed the only purpose of, the main 
purpose of the meeting was to discuss the specifics of how 
one would transfer the funds. 

you discuss the <> ^ ^^^^^^^^^^^l^^^^^^l 



UNCliSSlFO 



274 



KAnz: 

17U9 
17S0 
17S1 
17S2 
1753 
nSM 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 
1762 
1763 
1764 
1765 
1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 
1772 
1773 



iNOUSSi" 





HIR253000 w» » ■!»■■• ■^*'^». ■a.v p^Qj 7^ 
[for th«sa funds? 

A Ko. I don't racall, it would hava baan 
unnacessaxy . 

2 Was tha discussion limited to the mechanics oi the 
tiansiar? 

A Yes. on that subject. We might have then later--ua 
did later discuss othez nattetsAi^ Hz. Miller/ I was 
intezested in what he did foz a living. He told me he had 
some contacts with Nicazaguan deiectozs. and I, as an 
academic, spent a lot of time with defectozs as a way of 
undazstanding intelligence mattezs. There was a Kicaraguan 
intelligence officer who had def ecteoyapparently ha had 
access to> so we discussed my desize to meet him. 

2 Did he tell you that ha had been involved in fund- 
zaising campaigns? 

A No. he didn't, that wasn't my intezest. I don't 
focus on Amezican politics, it wasn't my interest. 

2 It wasn't discussed? 

A Not to my racollactlon. 

2 Did ha mention Carl Channell? 

A Ha did indicate to ma that ha had bean involved in 
tha Republican (fampaign^ he told me that^ he went through 
soma of his background. But wa didn't discuss tha specifics 
of tha domestic political arena. He mentioned that there 
was a Hz. Channall who would be a possible avenue foz 



yNCUSSiRE! 



275 



NAME: 
1771* 
1775 
1776 
Mil 
1778 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
178M 
1785 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
1791 
1792 
1793 
179^ 
1795 
1796 
1797 
1798 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 75 



H« mantlonad that. 



iunneling tho monayl 

fi Old ha volunteat that? 

A I can't tenembat. I said I praiertad to deal--ha 
was right thara, I knau hi»--ha gava na tha two options oi, 
talked about tha--talkad about tha Institute for Korth/South 
Affairs, which seamed like a very responsible organization. 

fi Is that the Institute for North/South Issues? 

A Could be, Horth/South/Korth. 

2 Had you known of that organization before? 

A I had only — I had some recollection that it had 
received money from the National Endowment for Democracy, 
that it was run by himself, he said, and former Deputy 
Assistant Secretary of State, F^ank Gomez, and it was 
involved in various educational activities in the region; 
therefore was a tax-exempt organization and a number of 
Congressmen and Senators sit on tha board of tha Hational 
Endowment for Democracy. I assumed it was' 
organization, it was responsible and could handle such a 
thing . 

Ma also indicated for someone who didn't want to do 
It, tax contributions to a tax-exempt organization, there 
was a bank account that he maintained, I think, in the 
Cayman Islands and that he could give that number to anybody 
who wanted to make a contribution to that who did not want 
to, did not regard it a tax-deductible activity. 






276 



NAHE: 

1799 
1800 

180 1 
1802 
1803 
180M 
I895 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 

181 1 
1812 
1813 
181(4 
1815 
1816 
1817 
1818 
1819 
1820 
1821 
1822 
1823 



HIR2S3000 



UNCUSSlFlcD 



PAGE 76 



2 At the time of this conversation, you had been 
aware of the Institute for North/South Issues. 

A I can't leroember, there are many organizations in 
Washington, and I can't recall whether I was aware of it. I 
certainly didn't know very much about it. 

2 Had you known Frank Gomez? 

A No. 

8 Had you known of him? 

A I mean, the name wasn't unfamiliar to me, but I 
wouldn't have, didn't know him in any specific way. 

Q As I understand your answer, Mr. Godson, in this 
initial conversation with Hr . niller, he discussed at least 
three alternative ways for transferring the funds: one 
would be a contribution to an organization controlled by Mr. 
Channell . 

A Yes. 

2 Two would be a contribution for the Institute for 
Korth/South Issues; and as I understand from your answer, 
both of those would be a tax-deductible contribution. 

A I can't remember if the Channell — discussion about 
Channell was, he was right there, he had the vehicles, why 
did we have to bring in someone else? I was trying to limit 
the numbers of people? 

2 Hell, go back to my sumaary, the third alternative 
was a direct transfer to the Cayman Island account — 



ONCLASSIFIED 



277 



NAME: 
182(« 
1825 
1826 
1827 
1828 
1829 
1830 
1831 
1832 
1833 
183>4 
1835 
1836 
1837 
1838 
1839 
18140 

18141 

18142 
18(43 
18>4U 
18145 
18146 
18147 
18148 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 77 



A Yes. sir. 

Q --that Hr . Millet controlled. 

A Yes. sir. 

2 Were there any alternative ways of transferring the 

V 

f und/discussed other than those three: The Channel 
A 

organization, the Institute for North/South Issues, and the 
direct deposit to the Caynan Island account? 

A I can't recall any others. 

8 Has there any discussion of the Heritage Foundation 
in this initial discussion — 

A Ho. 

2 --with Mr. Millet? 

A No. 

2 After this discussion with Mt . Miller, did you then 
report back to Mr. Sleasa? 

A Then. "»' repor t( back , I then informed him that I 
found a vehicle, a way of doing this. 

2 Did you explain the three altetnatives to Mt . 
Slease ? 

A Mo. 

2 Which did you explain to him? 

A Only told hin we had the tax-exempt institute, and 
thsra was a non-tax-exempt way of doing it too. I didn't 
give him. didn't discuss the othet thing^ . 

2 Was thete a specific contributor and a specific 



UNCUSSIFIED 



278 



HIR2S3000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 78 



NAME: 

18U9 anount that were being discussed by you and Mr. Slease at 

1850 this point? 

1851 A Collapsing a lot of months together here, so I 

1852 don't quite know at what point he told me that he had a 

1853 specific contributor. I can't recall exactly which 
185'« conversation lead to which. 

1855 At one point, it became specific, and he said he 

1856 had a specific contributor who wanted to make a 

1857 contribution, ha wanted to make it to an institution that he 

1858 knew by name, and that led to the discussion of the Heritage 

1859 Foundation. 

1860 2 Was that contributor aver identified to you? 
186 1 A I don't recall at the time that he was. 

1862 Subsequently ha was. 

1863 2 Did Mr. Slease develop contributions from two 
186(4 separate contributors? 

1865 A Presumably, ha was involved with several. I don't 

1866 know. I don't know exactly how he want about making these 

1867 solicitations, I was never involved. 

1868 2 Do you recognize the name Herbert Sarness? 

1869 A No. 

1870 fi Are you aware that Hr . Barness made a contribution? 

1871 A Z don't recall the nana. I don't recall the name. 

1872 2 Are you aware of any contributions that Hr . Slease 

1873 solicited that were deposited directly to the Cayman Island 



UNCLASSIFIED 



279 



NAME : 
1874 
1875 
1876 
1877 
1878 
1879 
1880 
1881 
1882 
1883 
188U 
1885 
1886 
1887 
1888 
1889 
1890 
1891 
1892 
1893 
1894 
1895 
1896 
1897 
1898 



HIR2S300 



account? 



ICUSSIFIED 



PAGE 79 



A No, I gave him tha Cayraan's account number, Mr. 
liillei gave me the number, I gave it to Mr. Slease, and I 
don't know what happened after that. 

2 You gave him the name of the account? 

A I think it is a number. I don't recall. I think 
it uas a number. I was completely unfamiliar with hou to 
deal with these accounts, and so I just gave him whatever 
information Miller gave me, the initial or the number, 
whatever it was. I gave it to Mr. Slease. 

2 And did you instruct Mr. Slease that he was to ber.d 
any contribution payable to such an account directly to Mr. 
Millar, or did you instruct him to sand it to you or 
something else? 

A I didn't instruct him to send it to me. I don't 
remember how--I don't remember how that part of the mechanics 
worked . 

2 Did you give Mr. Slaasa Mr. Miller's name or 
telephone number or address? 

A Ko, I didn't glva hin that Information. I don't 
racall avar giving him that. 

2 But you ballava you gave him either tha name of the 
Caynan^ account or tha number? 

A I know I did that, partially because I know I went 
to another phone in casa--thare was no reason at this--so I 



wmm 



280 



NAME: 
1899 
1900 
1901 
1902 
1903 
19014 
1905 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
19 10 
1911 
1912 
1913 
1914 
1915 
1916 
19 17 
1918 
1919 
1920 
1921 
1922 
1923 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 80 



told him I would call him at another time and give him a 
number and name and the number, that is it, of the account 
unrelated to that phone conversation. 

2 You gave him the name oi the Institute for 
North/South Issues? 

A And I gave him the name of the Institute for 
North/South Issues . 

Q It is your recollection you did not mention Mr. 
Channell or any of his organization? 

A Correct. 

S The reason you did not was what? 

A Well, there was no need. In other words, in my own 
mind, it was their Institute, North/South seemed like a 
responsible operation to me, and there was another account 
which I thought relatively few people would be interested in 
using, the Cayman Island account, but I gave him what was 
necessary rather than expand on it. 

2 Had you known of Kz . Channell at the time of this 
discussion? 

A Vaguely, but — vaguely. 

2 You never met him? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

S It Is your recollection that Ifr . Slease did not 

transmit to you any funds to be given to Mr. Miller? 

1. 
A That he physically gave ma: 



UNCLASSIFIED 



281 



NAME: 
192U 
1925 
1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
1934 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
1940 

19m 

1942 
1943 
1944 
1945 
1946 
1947 
1948 







HIR2S3000 **i^UiLr»V 



2 
A 
Q 
A 



^i« iLU 



PAGE 81 
He didn't send you a check? 
Correct. 

Or anything to transfer to Mr. Miller? 
That is correct. 

You indicated that you received another call iron 
nr . Slease where he indicated that he had a contributor who 
wanted to give money to a more-established foundation, is 
that your recollection? 

A Foundation that he was familiar with. yes. 
2 Did he identify a particular foundation? 
A I think he said Heritage, but I can't recall the 
specifics, whether it was Slease suggested it to the 
contributor or the contributor to Slease, but I don't 
recall . 

S But in this conversation that you recall with Mr. 
Slease/* there was a mention of a Heritage Foundation. 
A Yes. 

2 And am I correct in understanding that you are not 
the one who suggested the Heritage Foundation? 

A I think that is correct. I think it was Hr . 
Slease. but I don't recall. 

2 So it may have been you. 
A It could have been. 

2 What had been your association with the Heritage 
Foundation, if any? 



UNCUSSinED 



282 



NAME: 
19U9 
1950 
1951 
1952 
1953 
195U 
1955 
1956 
1957 
1958 
1959 
1960 
1961 
1962 
1963 
196(4 
1965 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 



HIR253000 



iiNCU5o.r:uD 



PAGE 82 



A Association? A quick definition, please. I am not 
a member of it, I don't get money fzom it, I don't work foe 
it, I am not associated with it in any formal way. Have I 
attended a seminar, yes, yes, I have known Hr . Feulner for 
many years, yes. 

2 By Mr. Feulner, you are referring to Ed Feulner in 
his title as President? 

A I am not sure either. 

S He, in effect, is the person who runs the Heritage 

2 
Foundation on a day-to-day basis. 

A that is my understanding. 

2 You have known him for a number of years? 

A Correct. 

2 Had you ever received any grants from the Heritage 
Foundation? 

A 

2 Yes. 

A Mo. 

2 Let's start personally. 

A Personally, no. 

2 Had MSIC? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

2 Had any other foundation with which you are 
associated? 

A I don't know. 



personally? 
r 



mmw. 



283 



HIR2S3000 



UNCUSSIFIED .. 



GE 83 



NAHE: 
1971* 2 Had you previously been involvad in participating 

1975 in any way with solicitation o± donations for tha Heritage 

1976 Foundation? 

1977 A No. 

"''S 2 What was the discussion with Hr . Sleasa about using 

1979 the Heritage Foundation for this contribution that he had in 

1980 mind? 

1981 A Wasn't much. It was that Heritage, that donor 

1982 would be, was potentially interested in giving the money to 

1983 the Heritage Foundation and tha^^ritage Foundation, in 
198M turn, could than give it to the Institute for North/South 

1985 Issues, that was all. 

1986 2 Has it left that you would contact Mr. Feulner 

1987 about this? 

1988 A No, that he first would contact Mr. Feulner. 

1989 2 nr. Slease would? 

1990 A yes, sir, and then I would follow up. 

199 1 2 Did you know whether or not Hr . Slease knew Mr. 

1992 Feulner? 

1993 A I assumed he did. It never entered into my mind 

1994 that ha didn't. 

1995 2 How, you say you were to follow up. What did you 

1996 understand that to mean? 

1997 A I was to call Mr. Feulner to discuss the specifics. 

1998 2 Were you to explain to Mr. Feulner about the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



284 



KAHE: 
1999 
2000 

200 1 
2002 
2003 
20014 
2005 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 

201 1 
2012 
2013 
201M 
2015 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 



HIR253000 



UNClASS'irlED 



PAGE 8U 



conversations with Mr. HcFarlane and Colonel North? 

A Kot those specifically, but the principle that the 
Government of the United States thought this was a good 
idea, because we were, they were acting consistent with what 
the Government of the United States would want to have 
happen. 

2 Did you have a subsequent conversation with Hr . 
Feulner ? 

A Yes. 

2 What did you tell hin in that conversation? 

A Just what I said that it was. Mr. Slease had 
already talked to him. so Hr . Feulner was about to leave for 
a long time, he didn't have much time, it was the end of the 
day. it was very short, relatively a very short meeting, he 
knew who the recipients, intended recipients of the fund 
were, he knew that it would be transferred to another, the 
idea was to transfer to another foundation, and he just 
asked me to give him the name of the foundation, to either 
give it to him. the address right to him, or to speak to Mr. 
Trulock. who was I think whatever the person who deals with 
these--Exeoutive Vice President, or something else, there was 
another. Hx. Trulock was the person who was to handle the 
contact with the Institute. 

2 Hr . Trulock is with the Heritage Foundation? 

A Yes, he is either Executive Vice President, some 



vmssim 



285 



MAKE: 
202U 
2025 
2026 
2027 
20281 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
203(4 
2035 
2036 
2037 
2038 
2039 
20(40 
20(41 
20(42 
20(43 
20(4(4 
20U5 
20(46 
20(47 
20(48 



HIR253000 



ONCLASSiriza 



PAGE 85 



offlcai oi th« H«tltag« Foundation. 

fi Khan you say you aKplainad tha putposa of tha 
contributions, do you mean that you axplainad that thasa 
funds uara to ba ttansfetted 




A Absolutaly. 

2 And that transfer was to ba dona through an 
indirect route? By that. I iiean it was to be a transfer 
from the Heritage Foundation to the Institute for 
Horth/South Issues, and than tha Institute would arrange for 
t r a n s f a r ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V 

A Correct. 

a You explained all this to Hr . Feulner? 

A Correct. And further that this was a confidential 
transaction, that knowledge about this was to be limited. 

fi And did you explain that this had been discussed at 
high levels within the Kational Security Council? 

A I don't recall any discussion like that, just the 
other, because I assuned Hr . Slaase had already prepared Hr . 
Feulner for this. 

e Hhat did Hr. Feulner indicate that he had learned 
fron Hz. Sleasa? 

A I don't know. 

e you don't recall? 

A I don't zaoall. 



ONcussife 



286 




./ 



I 



NAHr= HIR2S3000 v-- pjgi gg- 

20U9 e Do you t«caH mantioning Hr . HcFatlana's name or 

2050 Colonal North's nam« in tha conversation? 
2 051 A I don't. 

2052 8 How is it your understanding that a contribution 

2053 was made to the Heritage Foundation that was than 
205'* transierred to the Institute ior North/South Issues? 
2,055 A Yes. 

2056 2 Hou did you learn that? 

2057 A I don't remember the precise circumstances how Z 

2058 learned it> but at some point I gave Trulock the name of 

2059 niller, I spoke to Killer and suggested that he write, 

2060 request a grant from the Heritage Foundation, and so it just 

206 1 happened, I assumed it happened, at that point. I was not a 

2062 party to Miller's drafting of a request, I just suggested he 

2063 would write a request to the Foundation to ask for it. 
206U 2 Oo you know if this request discussedj 

2065 ^H^f 

2066 A Ho, I don't know what was in it, the terms of the 

2067 request. 

2068 e Old you ever see the request? 

2069 A X certainly didn't at that time, can't remember 

2070 whether X subsequently have seen something. I think that 

207 1 the committee released to the press, or as an exhibit, 

2072 something about the exchange of correspondency vas , I am 

2073 pretty sure this committee released to the newspapers when 



mm 



fifvnv^ 



W .s <tf 1 Ki. 



287 



NAME: 

207U 

2075 

2076 

2077 

2078 

2079 

2080 

2081 

2082 

2083 

208U 

2085 

2086 

2087 

2088 

2089 

2090 

2091 

2092 

2093 

209U 

2095 

2096 

2097 

2098 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 87 



Congressman Fascell asked questions about this subject. 
That same day I got a call from--! was on :ury duty, there 
were calls from the press, and I think I sau a copy of an 
exchange of correspondence betueen Miller and Heritage, 
which I had not seen before. 

2 You had not been aware of that before? 

A I had been aware there must have been some kind of 
exchange . 

2 You hadn't been aware of the substance of the 
exchange ? 

A That is right. 

2 Here you aware of the identity of the donor to th£. 
Heritage Foundation? 

A I subsequently became aware of it. 

2 At what time? 

A Sometime after, I can't say exactly when. Sometime 
after. 

2 Did you learn that from Hr . Slease? 

A Yes, six. 

2 Who did he tell you was the donor? 

A Z think the name is Mr. Donahue. 

2 Did he tell you the amount of the donation? 

A I can't remember. He said it was a substantial 
contribution. 

2 Did you discuss with Colonel North your 



CWCUSSIf/ffl 



288 



NAME: 
2099 
2100 
2101 
2102 
2103 
210U 
2105 
2106 
2 107 
2108 
2 109 
2110 
211 1 
21 12 
2113 
21 1<4 
2115 
21 16 
21 17 
21 18 
2119 
2120 
2121 
2122 
2123 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 88 



arrangements with respect to the involvement of the Heritage 
Foundation? 

A I don't recall. No, I don't think I did. I don't 
recall discussing the details of this any more about, of 
those kinds of details. 

2 Did you report to Colonel North that Mr. Slease had 
arranged a substantial contribution? 

A Mr. Slease asked if Mr. Donahue had made a 
contribution, could he receive a letter just indicating that 
the Government of the United States was aware that he had 
supported something, this was not a free-lance operation or 
fund-raising, after all, he wouldn't receive detailed 
accounting of exactly how, he couldn't publicly discuss this 
and check it out through the normal procedures. So he asked 
for some indication that he was acting supportive of 
national interest. 

S And what did you do in response to that request? 

A I can't remember whether Slease suggested it or I 
suggested it, but we thought the best thing was to get a 
note froB tha President of the United States thanking him 
for his general support. 

fi Did you get such a note? 

A I did ask North if such a note could be obtained, I 
didn't know whether it could be obtained, I asked him if he 
could do it, and I understand he did do it. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



289 



NAriE- 

212*4 
2125 
2126 
2 127 
2128 
2129 
2130 
2131 
2132 
2133 
213U 
2135 
2136 
2137 
2 138 
2139 
21U0 
21141 
21<42 
21<43 
2mM 
21t45 
21<46 
2147 
21U8 



HIR253000 



yNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 89 



2 Did you ever see the note? 

A I can't--I may have, I can't reraambet. I think I 
did. but I am not sura. 

2 But in connection with this note, you do not recall 
any discussion with Colonel North about Kaxitaga foundation-- 

A Mo. 

2 --being the vehicle for this transfer? 

A No , I don't. It was unnecessary to discuss it with 
him. 

2 Are you awara of any other contributions that Hr . 
Slaase arranged? 

A Well, Mr. Slaase asked me to meet John, Mr. John - 
Hirtle, and I asked for him to be introduced to North, so 
that North could explain the purpose of tha activity, and I 
did introduce, arrange to meet Hr . Hirtle, who I had not met 
before, and I introduced him to North. 

2 Did Mr. Hirtle coma to Washington to your office, 
or did you meet him at the White House? 

A I think I mat him at the White House. 

2 Then you attended a meeting? 

A Another brief meeting with North. 

2 Ware the matters discussed similar to the subject 
matt«x of tha meeting that tlr . North or that Colonel North 
and Mr. tlcFarlana had had with Mr. Slaase? 

A Wasn't vary different, but, again, I wasn't paying 



UNCLASSIFIED 



290 



KAME: HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED ^». ^< 



21U9 
2150 
2151 
2152 
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2157 
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2160 
2161 



that nuch attantlon. I may hav* baan on tha phona mysalf, I 
may hava baan writing sonathing, it wasn't nacassary ioi ma 
to haar tha sama material briaiing, so I don't think I was 
paying a graat daal of attention. 

Q Tha subjact mattar was tha naad ofl 




A Absolutely. 

--^^^^^^^^^^H f or 

A Right. 

S Mr. rtcFarlana did not participate in this meeting? 

A Correct. 

2 It was just Colonel North and you and Mr. Hirtla? 

A Correct. 



ONCUSSlflEP 



291 



NAnE 
2162 
2163 
2 1614 
2165 
2 166 
2167 
2168 
2169 
2 170 
2 171 
2172 
2173 
2 174 
217S 
2176 
2 177 
2178 
2 179 
2180 
2181 
2182 
2183 
218>4 
2185 
2186 



HIR2S3000 
RPTS CAHTOR 
DCHK HILTON 
M2M5 1 



PAGE 



91 




SIFIEO 



2 Do you knoM if Hr . Hirtle undertook any efforts to 
raise funds after this neeting with Colonel North? 

A No, I think he did. 

2 How do you know that? 

A I think he told me, Slease told me. 

2 Do you know if he raised any funds? 

A I think he did. One day a check arrived at my 
office at the National Strategy Information Center made out. 
I think, to the Institute for North-South Issues, from a 
person whom I didn't know. 

2 Do you recall the amount of the check? 

A No, I don't. I then called Mr. Hiller and asked 
him to come and pick up the check. 

2 And I take it he did so? 

A Yes. 

2 And is that the only contribution that you believe 
was generated by Hr . Hirtle's efforts? 

A I generally have a feeling that there were some 
others, but I don't know. I didn't know anything about it. 

2 Do you recall if the contribution was from an 
individual named Macaleer? 



UNCUSSIFiEO 



292 



HIR2S3000 



UNCUSSIrl[D 



PAGE 



92 



NAMK 

2187 A I'm sorry, I just don't rftmsnbar. 

2188 2 Had you told Hz. Hlrtla to hava any contributions 

2189 directad to tha Instituta ior North-South Issues? 

2190 A Yes, I had told hin about both methods. There uas 

2191 an account, and there was the Instituta. 

2 192 a Had you told him that at the time oi his meeting 

2193 with Colonel North? 

219U A No. 

2 19S 2 When did you tell him that? 

2 196 A At some subsequent time that ha indicated he could 

2197 in fact do something. I can't recall — I can't say I didn't, 

2198 certainly not in the presence oi Colonel North. V» would 

2199 have had the meeting with him and then wa want outside. 

2200 Whether I did it at that particular juncture or at a 

2201 subsequent time, I don't recall. 

2202 2 Did Colonel North ask Hr . Hirtla to raise funds for 

2203 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^■i'l your 

220ii A I don't know tha formulation. I can't recall the 

2205 formulation. There was a discussion of the need to support 

2206 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand as earlier, 

2207 know that Z was paying that much attention. I was probably 

2208 doing, as I frequently do at meetings, I would be on the 

2209 phona and sometimes writing things myself, so I don't recall 

2210 tha formulation. 

2211 2 Going back to tha meeting with Hz. HcFarlana and 



MmSE 



293 



2212 

2213 

221<4 

2215 

2216 

2217 

2218 

2219 

2220 

2221 

2222 

2223 

222tt 

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2230 

2231 

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223>4 

2235 

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;LASS!F!ED ■■■ 




HIR253000 IIIUI.I U_^_^NI SP 91 PAGE 93 
Colonal North with Hr . Slaasa, do you r«call •ither Hr . 
NcFailana oz Colonel North asking nr . Slaasa to rals* funds 
for ^^^ 

A I don't ramambar It statad that way. I racall a 
nac03Sity> discussing tha purposa, why that it was 
important . 

S Going back to your original conversation with 
Colonal North, am I correct in understanding that Colonel 
North did ask you to assist in raising funds for, 




A Yes. 

Q Old nr . ncfarlana also ask you to do that? 
A No. 

Q And the only specific contribution that you are 
aware o^ that nr . Hirtle or that you believe Hr . Hirtle 
solicited was this one check that arrived at your office 
payable to the Institute for North-South Issues? 

HR. SILBZRT: Can I hear that question again, 
please? 

(The reporter read the record as requested.] 
nt. SILBERT: There are two different tests there. 
One is aware and one is believe. I don't know if you 
intended it to be synonymous. 
BY HR. fRYHANi 
fi Let me rephrase the question. Do you have any 




294 



mmmis .... 



Hint- HIR253000 tCIWIJi nalllll II II PAGE 9C4 

2237 iniocnation indicating that Mr. Hirtia was tasponslbla for 

any ^'^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H ^'^^^^ than tha 

2239 check that you have described that arrived at your ofiice? 

22<40 A No. I can't recall any. 

22'4 1 S Did you contact a.iyone other than Hr . Slease and 

Hirtle funds ^<>>=I^^^^|^^^^^^^^^H ^^ 

22M3 response to the request by Colonel North? 

22UM (Witness and counsel confer.] 

2245 THE WITKESS = I'a sorry. I forgot the question. 

2246 (The reporter read the record as requested.] 

22M7 THE WITNESS: I'm not saying I contacted Hr . Hirtle. 

22>t8 I can't recall whether I contacted Hirtle. I didn't know 

221(9 Mr. Hirtle to start with. Slease--! believe I nay have asked 

2250 him to call me or he may have called me and asked me to call 

2251 Hirtle, just to clarify the record. 

2252 I, of course, discussed this with Hr . Feulner. I 

2253 can't recall any other conversations. I was trying to 
225U minimize the number of people who were involved in this. 

2255 BY HR. FRyHAK: 

2256 fi The conversation with Hi. Fuelner that you have 

2257 described concerns the mechanism for the transfer of the 

2258 funds that were to be donated by Hr . Donahue. Did you have 

2259 any other conversation with Hr. feulner about raising funds 

2260 for^^^ 

2261 HR. SILBERT: Hy only problem with the question. I 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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2262 
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2286 



UNCLASSIFIED » 



HIlt2S3000 IIIVIII M.l.'?i9l HI 11 PAGE 95 
don't think you lnt«nd«d It, I don't think that Mr. Godson 
indicatad ha was awata that whan ha talkad to Faulnaz who 
tha contributor was, and part oi your quastion may be taken 
to assuma that ha did. I don't think you intended it that 
way, but I just wanted to make sure the record is clear that 
we are not assuming something that is not in evidence. 
BY HR. FRYMAK: 

fi With that understanding. Hi. Godson, can you answer 
the question? 

A I'm sorry . 

C Let me phrase it again. Other than the 
conversation with Hr . Feulner that you have described about 
the mechanics oi transferring the contribution that was 
being arranged by Hr . Sleasa. did you have any additional 
conversations with Hr . Teulner with respect to the raising 
oC iunds for] 

A Other than that it was a generally good idea. I 
mean, we discussed it that it was a generally good idea, but 
I don't recall a speciiio conversation about that. There 
wasn't much time. Ha was pressed. 

8 Did you ask Hr . reulnez to undertake any fund- 
raising efforts? 

A Z can't recall whether I did, but I wouldn't be 
surprised if I had said, obviously, you know, can you help 
too? I mean, it would have been consistent with my views 



UNCLASSIFIED 



296 



KANE: 
2287 
2288 
2289 
2290 
2291 
2292 

_ 2293 
229U 
2295 
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2299 
2300 
2301 
2302 
2303 
230>4 
2305 
2306 
2307 
2308 
2309 
2310 
231 1 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Do you know an individual naned ScoV^^Hillttr ? 



HIR253000 liilSia d^a'^^^lH H H PAGE 96 

about this, but I don't racall tha spaclflcs. 

S Do you hava any iniornation with laspact to whather 
or not ha did? 

A Ko, I don't. 

S 

A Yas. 

e How did you naat Hr . Millar? 

A Through Mr. Slaasa. 

2 What was tha occasion whan you mat Hr . Hiller? 

A I think tha iirst tine X aat Hr . Hillax was in 
Switzerland, when I was attending a naating in Switzerland 
about a subject which is completely irrelevant to tha 
subject matter hare oi this investigation. 

2 Were you aware that Mr. Hiller worked with Hr . 
Hirtla? 

A Yes, I was. 

2 Did you hava any iniormation about any involvement 
by Scot/Hillar in tha fund-raising efforts by Kr . Hirtle? 

A Pertaining to| 

2 Yas. 

A Ko information whatsoever. 

2 Were you ever told that Scot/'l^^l*^ ^-^^ bean 
involved in tha fund-raising efforts? 

A Ko. 

2 With John Klrtle? 



mmmiB 



297 



NAnz- 

2312 
2313 
231U 
2315 
2316 
2317 
2318 
2319 
2320 
2321 
2322 
2323 
232K 
2325 
2326 
2327 
2328 
2329 
2330 
2331 
2332 
2333 
233>4 
2335 
2336 






HIK2S3000 ilf\l»'8 /J VV 'Is ill " = ' '^ 
A Ho. 

HR. SILBERT: You a«an tha iund-ialslng affotts for 



BY HR. rRYHAK: 

S Yas, tha iund-talsing aiiozts that wa hava baan 
discussing . 

A Right. 

fi So tha iirst tima you mat ScoyHillaz was in 
Switzerland? 

A Corract. 

e And this was a maating that Hz. Slaasa azzangad? 

A I don't Know if ha arrangad it. I think tlz . Hillar 
was in Switzarland. I was tha£a> and it was tha first tima 
wa wara probably in tha sama city. 

S Had you Known in advanca that Sco^ Millar was going 
to ba thara? 

A Yas . X maan> ha doas businass in Switzarland, and 
rtr . Slaasa had told ma ha was thara and that ha might ba 
intarastad in attanding soma of tha actlvitias that I was 
involvad in uhloh hava nothing to do with Cantral Amarica. 

e Do you know raith Hhlttlasay? 

A Yas. 

fi Had you Known Mrs. Hhittlasay during tha tima that 
sha Korkad in tha Hhita Housa? 

A Yas. I had. 






298 



NAHE: 
2337 
2338 
2339 
23(40 
23m 
23142 
23143 

' 231414 
23M5 
23U6 
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23U8 
23149 
2350 
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2352 
2353 
23514 
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2356 
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2358 
2359 
2360 
2361 




HIR253000 IJSTSII9! t^ftl^iiat! QS 01 PAGE 98 

S And at that time you were a consultant to the 
National Security Council? 

A Correct. 

S And she later becane Ambassador to Switzerland, is 
that correct? 

A Correct. 

2 And you continued to know her in that capacity? 

A Correct. 

2 Did you ever have any discussion with Mrs. 
Whittlesey about raising funds for any purpose relating to 
Nicaragua or Central America? 

A In the years — raising funds relating to 
Nicaragua--Central America is to me a big subject. If you 
are asking about raising funds in any way to do with the 
contras, no. I mean. I never had any conversation with her 
to my recollection about that. 

2 But you do recall conversations that would be 
responsive to the broader question that I raised? 

A As I recall, I may have had conversations with hez 
in 1982-83, in around that period, I mean in that tine, 
about educational programs about American foreign policy 
including Central America. She was in charge of the Office 
of Public Liaison and so she was in contact with a lot of 
groups, and I probably had conversations with her. I could 
have had conversations with her about that, and I think it's 



*(^ss/fa 



299 



HAME; HIR253000 



ONCLffiSiRta 



PAGE 99 



2362 liK«ly but I don't racall th« specifics of it. 



"NCWSSIflffl 



300 



2363 
236t4 
2365 
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2370 
2371 
2372 
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237M 
2375 
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2383 
238M 
2385 
2386 
2387 







PAGE 100 



HIR2S3000 
RPTS CANTOR 
DCKN SUINTERO 

2 During tha pariod when shtt was Aitbassador to 
Suitzeiland. did you evaz hava any convezsation or 
correspondenca with har concerning the raising oi funds 
related to Nicaragua or Central Anarica? 

A No. 

2 During the time that sha was ambassador, you 
attended a nunber of meetings and dinner at the embassies in 
Switzerland; did you not? 

A I attended two. 

fi Did these two meetings relate in any way or involve 
in any way the raising of funds for] 
or Central America? 

A Absolutely not. 

fi Has one of the parsons who attended one of these 
meetings Sir James Goldsmith? 

A Ha did. 

e Oo you hava any knouladga of any effort to obtain 
contributions from Sic Jamas Goldsmith? 

A Ho. 

fi Relating to| 

A No. 
Khan you said] 
assume wa aza talking about fund raising fc 





UNCu: 






301 



NAHE 
2388 
2389 
2390 
2391 
2392 
2393 
23914 
2395 
2396 
2397 
2398 
2399 
2U00 
2<(01 
2U02 
2U03 
2>40i4 
2U05 
2U06 
2«407 
2U08 
2(409 

2mo 

2411 
2<412 



KIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 






PkGE 101 



That is what you nean by that? 

HR. rRYHAN: Ofiica the iscord. 
[Discussion oii th« racotd.l 

MR. rRYHAK: Back on tha lacoid. 
BY HR. rRYHXH: 
Q Ki . GodsoH/ do you hava any information, or are you 
auara of any information concarning attempts to obtain 
contributions by Sir Jamas Goldsmit> 

for tha resistance forces in Nicaragua, or 
any public education or lobbying campaign in tha United 
States relating to Nicaragua? 

A I an unaware of any such. 
Do you knoM Arturo Cruz? 
That Is sanior? 
Yes. 
Yes. 

Are you aware that he raeeived funds at some point 
from the National Strategy Information Center? 

nt. SILBERT' Just for the record, although this was 
not one of the subjects we understood to be the area of 
inquiry today, Nr . fryman, because It happened to be tha one 
area that we thought might be germane to Mr. Godson's 
inquiry, we did prepare on that, and we axe prepared to 
respond to your questions on that. 



Q 
A 

A 

Q 



UNCLAS; 



302 



NAME = 
21413 

zmu 

2U15 
2(416 
2U 17 
2(418 
2(419 
2(420 
2(421 
2U22 
2(423 
2U2(4 
2U25 
2(426 
2427 
2(428 
2(429 
2(430 
2(431 
2U32 
2(433 
2(43U 
2(435 
2(436 
2(437 



HIR2S3000 



llNMSSffl 



PAGE 102 



THE WITNESS : Yes, I am aware that he was a research 
fellow at the National Strategy Information Center, ior six 
months . 

BY HR. FRYMAN: 

2 What period of time was this? 

A I can't recall exactly, in '8(4 or '85. 

2 Do you recall how much money he received? 

A I think it was in the area of «(40,000. 

2 Do you know why he was-- 

A He was paid *(40,000 before taxes. 

2 Do you know why he was retained by the National 
Strategy Information Center in that capacity. 

A He was an outstanding intellectual/ who the National 
Strategy Information Center thought could contribute to 
public understanding of events transpiring in Nicaragua, 
especially as he had been involved in Nicaraguan political 
affairs and had been ambassador, and had written extensively 
about the subject. 

2 Was it your suggestion that he be retained. 

A It was my suggestion initially. 

e Initially? 

A To Frank Barnett? 

S Had you ever discussed that idea with Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

2 Did Colonel North make that suggestion to you, that 



UNCLASSIFIED 



303 



HAHE 
2U38 
2t(39 
2t4>40 
214 m 
2UU2 
214U3 
2i4i4<4 
24145 
2M146 
2UI47 
2(4 148 
214149 
21450 
21451 
2(452 
21453 
214514 
2455 
2(456 
2(457 
2((58 
21459 
21460 
21461 
2U62 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 103 



Hz. Cruz be zatain«d by tha NSIC? 

A He and Vincent Cannistraro had a conversation with 
rae about this one day and said that Aztuzo Czuz was looking 
for raeaningful uozk and wanted to wzite, and asked uhethez I 
knew of a foundation oz a center uheze he could do that. 

2 So that convezsation with Colonel Nozth and Hz. 
Cannistzazo is what pzompted youz zecommendation to the 
NSIC; is that correct? 
A Just one second. 
[Witness confers with counsel.] 

THE WITNESS: Yes. They initiated the idea, but I 
also thought, I mean myself, that this would be a useful 
thing. I have read some of Mr. Cruz' articles in scholarly 
publications, intellectual magazines, and thought ht> wsulJ 
make an interesting person to have as a research fellow. 
BY MR. FRYHAN: 
S Did you discuss the retention of Mr. Cruz with 
anyone else inside the United States Sovernment other than 
Colonel North and Mr. Cannistraro? 
A Not to my recollection. 

Did you discuss it with Mr. Casey? 
Ho. 



2 
A 
S 
A 



With Walt KmMnn 

A 

No. What I wanted to add there was I can't say 



later on when he was a fellow I may have mentioned it to 



UNCLASSIFIED 



304 



21463 

21465 

2(466 

2 4 6 7 

2t4 68| 

214 6 9 

2 4 7 01 

2471 

2472! 

2473 

2474 

2475 

2476 

2477 

2478 

2479 

2480 

2481 

2482 

2483 

2484 

2485 

2486 

2487 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 104 



Walt Ranon that ha was a iellou. 

I can't say I didn't say I didn't say it at a latat point, 
but I didn't discuss it with anyona alsa bafota I discussed 
it with Hr. Barnatt at KSIC and decided to offer hin — 




KSIflEO 



305 



HARE' 
2t488 
2M89 
24 90 
249 1 
2(492 
2<493 
2t(9U 
2U9S 
2>496 
21497 
2>498 
2499 
2500 
2501 
2502 
2503 
250(4 
2505 
2506 
2507 
2508 
2509 
2510 
251 1 
2512 




2 Waia you satisfied with th« work that Hr . Cruz 
performed in connection with the grant he received from the 
NSIC? 

A Regrettably we were not. 

2 Did it surprise you that his work was not 
satisfactory? 

A Yes. it did. 

2 Ue have talked, Hr . Godson, about the National 
Strategy Information Center, which I take it is a nonprofit 
organization. 

A Nonpartisan, tax-exempt^ educational organization. 

2 Are you associated with any other nonprofit 
organizations? 

A When you say ''associate with'"? 

2 Let ma narrow it down. Have you formed any 
organizations yourself? 

A In this last year, '8b-'67 i did iOUt a new 
organization. That is the wrong term. 
Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.] 



II 




D 



306 



NAnE = 
2513 
251t( 
2515 
2516 
2517 
2518 
2519 
2520 
2521 
2522 
2523 
252>) 
2525 
2526 
2527 
2528 
2529 
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2532 
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253U 
2535 
2536 
2537 



HIR253000 



yNCLASSIFIED 

MR. FRYHAN: On the record. 



PAGE 106 



THE WITNESS: I have been involved in setting up, 
reiurbishing / i£ you will, an older but turning it into a 
new tax-exempt organization in this past calendar year. 
BY nH. rRYHAK: 

2 What is the name of that organization? 

A I think it is Institute ior International Affairs, 
or Studies, or something. 

2 And your involvement in that began in 1987? 

A '86. I think. 

2 Uithin the last 12 months? 

A Yes. 

2 Other than that organization, have you been involved 
in the establishment or the reformulation of any other 
nonprofit organizations? 

A Over my lifetime? 

2 Let's say within the last three years? 

A Hot to my recollection. No, I don't think so. 

2 Have you had control over the bank account of any 
other nonprofit organization within the last-- 

A By ''other,'* you are referring to this new 
institute? 

2 By ''other,'' I an referring to anything other than 
this new institute, and I am also including NSIC. 

A I want to be very clear. I have no control. 



UNCU; 



OIH 



f-T if 



307 



«AME: 

2538 

2539 

2540 

2541 

25142 

25U3 

2SUU 

2545 

25U6 

2547 

25M8 

2549 

2550 

2551 

2552 

2553 

2554 

2555 

2556 

2557 

2558 

2559 

2560 

2561 

2562 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 107 



I am not an ofiicer of NSIC. I am not a director of NSIC. 
I an a part-tima director, that is it is in nane only, so 
that is somebody who is identified as the director. I have 
no control of the bank accounts of HSIC or of any other 
organization other than this newly formed institute, and I 
am not even sure if I have control of the bank account 
there . 

2 And you have not had within the last three years? 

A No. 

2 I have a few other questions relating or associated 
with Colonel North's chart, which is Exhibit 2. He were 
talking earlier, Hr . Godson, about a youth conference that 
was held in Jamaica in 1985. Did you attend that 
conference? 

A I did. 

2 Did you have any responsibility in connection with 
the conference? 

A Could you define responsibility for me, please? 

2 Let me rephrase the question. What was your role in 
that conference? 

A I was asked to attend the Jamaica International 
Youth Conference, by Kelly Alexander, who was the President 
of the USIYVC, the sane organization, it should be U.S. 
International Youth Year Commission. 

Mr. Cone was chairman of the governing board. Kelly 



"Nwssife 



308 



2563 
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2565 
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2567 
2568 
2569 
2570 
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2572 
2573 
257t4 
2575 
2576 
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2S6^ 
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2587 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 108 



Alexander was the elected president oi the organization. I 
was asked to travel to Jamaica to be a consultant or adviser 
to hira . And I was also asked by the Minister of Youth of 
Jamaica if I would attend, to be available, should he have 
any questions for me. 

Q Who was the Minister of Youth of Jamaica? 

A Erol Anderson. 

2 How is that spelled? 

A Anderson, you know. 

2 And when were you originally asked to participate or 
to be involved in this conference? 

A I can't recall exactly which month. 

2 Oo you recall the year? 

A 1985. 

2 The conference was held in April of 1985? 

A Yes. 

2 And it is your recollection you had no role in that 
conference prior to 1985? 

HK. SILBERT: I really have a problem with this. He 
didn't say that he had no role. 

You asked the question. You asked him how he happened to 
attend, and he responded to it. 

KK. rRYHAK: I think I asked, him. Hr . Sllbert. what 
was his role in the conference. 

HR. SILBERT: You asked him his responsibilities and 



UNCLASSIFIED 



309 



NAME: 
2588 
2589 
2590 
2591 
2592 
2593 
2594 
2595 
2596 
2597 
2598 
2599 
2600 
2601 
2602 
2603 
26014 
2605 
2606 
2607 
2608 
2609 
2610 
261 1 
2612 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 109 



he asked you to clarify that and you said you would rephrase 
th« question and you asked how he happened to attend, and he 
responded Kelly Alexander asked hin to attend. 

MR. FRYHAH: If the repor ^""could go back and read 
the question and answer relating to Hr . Godson's original 
involvement in the conference in Jamaica? 
[Buestion and answer read.l 
BY HR. FRYMAH: 
2 Mr. Godson, the repor^has read a prior question and 
answer. I had asked you what your role was in that 
conference, and you had responded that you were asked to 
attend by Hr . Alexander, and then a subsequent answer you 
indicated that that request occurred in 1985, and i»y follow- 
up question is did you have any role in that conference 
prior to 1985. 

MR. SILBERT: I would like to hear a pro^^fer as to 
the materiality of that to House Resolution 12, and then I 
will try to make an assessment as to whether I think it is 
germane to the inquiry. 

MR. FRYMAN: It is very simple, Hr . Silbert. 
Exhibit 2 is in front of you, and I think questions relating 
to the Jamaica conference and Mr. Godson's role in that 
conference and the International Youth Year activities are 
relevant, and I would ask Mr. Godson to answer the question. 

MR. SILBERT: If you have more pointed questions 



UNCIASSIHED 



310 



2613 
261U 
2615 
2616 
2617 
2618 
2619 
2620 
2621 
2622 
2623 
26214 
2625 
2626 
2627 
2628 
2629 
2630 
2631 
2632 
2633 
263K 
2635 
2636 
2637 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 110 



that relate to Exhibit 2. X thin|(Whey axe relevant. We are 
fast approaching the end of this deposition today, as iar as 
my schedule permits and ue are not going to go into the 
history of Hr . Godson's role in the youth movement or in the 
Jamaican conference. 

MR. FRYMAM: The question stands, and he can either 
answer it or you can direct him not to answer it. 

tlR. SILBERT: I Mill object to the question on the 
grounds I have previously stated, twofold grounds. Myself 
not being aware until yesterday that--well, at no time was I 
told the youth commission activities would be a subject of 
today's deposition. 

Kot until yesterday at sometime around 5 o'clock was I 
advised that my understanding of the scope of today's 
deposition was incorrect. Therefore, in terms of lack of 
being able to prepare the witness, particularly on such 
broad-ranging inquiries that seem to go far beyond the 
mandate of the committee, I certainly haven't done the 
preparation for today's deposition. 

Secondly, I also object on the grounds of relevance. 

Its. fRYHAN: Again, I don't think any purpose is 
served by a detailed debate back and forth as to what you 
expected the subject matter of the deposition to be . I will 
merely point out that we have had a previous exchange of 
correspondence concerning subpoenas that directly involved 



ONCUSSIFIED 



311 



NAHE: 
2638 

2639 

2640 

264 1 

2642 

2643 

2644 

2645 

2646 

2647 

2648 

2649 

2650 

2651 

2652 

2653 

2654 

2655 

2656 

2657 

2658 

2659 

2660 

266 1 

2662 



HIR253000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 1 1 1 



tha International Youth Year and Mr. Godson's association 
with it. 

I uiil also point out that in our prior interview there 
was an extensive discussion of that subject, and how you 
concluded that it would not be a subject for discussion 
today is beyond me. 

HR. SILBERT: I think it is very simple, Mr. Tryman. 
I think it is perfectly clear from that interview, based on 
fir. Godson's answer that the information he knew of, the 
information of which he was aware, had utterly no relevance 
to either Exhibit 2, or anything within the mandate of the 
scope of the committee and, therefore, it was natural for me 
to conclude, when you did not make specific reference to it, 
that having had an investigator coma down and go through all 
the files in our office that related to that, and fxTther 
having examined him at an informal interview at which 
Professor Godson voluntarily appeared and spent considerable 
time, as you are correct, going over this subject, and there 
being nothing said in that interview that indicated the 
remotest affiliation with anything to do with Nicaragua, or 
Iran, or arms for tha Sandinistas, from his association with 
tha youth movement, I naturally assumed that it would not be 
tha subject of this deposition and the committee would not 
waste its time. 

HR. FRYHAK: The questions stands. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



312 



NAME: 
2663 
266U 
2665 
2666 
2667 
2668 
2669 
2670 
2671 
2672 
2673 
26714 
2675 
2676 
2677 
2678 
2679 
2680 
2681 
2682 
2683 
26814 
2685 
2686 
2687 



HIR253000 



ONCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 112 



BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q The question stands, Mz . Godson. You should answer 
the question unless your counsel directs you not to. 

MR. SILBERT: I respectfully advise the uitness that 
for the reasons previously stated, he ought not to answer 
the question. 

If you want to construe that as a direction, you may. 
BY MR. FRYMAM: 
8 Mr. Godson, are you refusing to answer the question? 
A On advice of counsel, at this time I decline to 
answer the question. 

Can I add also that I have tried to be as cooperative as ll 
can. X wish to do so, but at this time I decline to answer 
the question. 

2 In connection with youz association with the April 
1985 conference in Jamaica, and your work on the 
International Youth Year, did you receive any United States 
Government funds? 

(Witness and counsel confer.] 

IMS WITKESS : I may have misunderstood the question. 
Could you repeat, 
(euestion read. ] 

THS HIINESS: Hith respect to attending that 
conference, I received no funds. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 



UNCLASSIFIED 



313 



NAME : 
2688 
2689 
2690 
269 1 
2692 
2693 
269U 
2695 
2696 
2697 
2698 
2699 
2700 
2701 
2702 
2703 
2704 
2705 
2706 
2707 
2708 
2709 
2710 
27 1 1 
2712 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 113 



2 I don't think that is responsive to the question. 
Read the question again. 

HR. SILBERT: That is his answer. You don't have to 
read the question. 1£ you want to ask a iollou-up question, 
you may. 

He has answered that question. 
BY HR. FRYHAH: 
2 Kr . Godson, the question had two parts. One related 
to the Jamaica conierence; the other part had to do with 
other activities by you relating to the International Youth 
Year. 

Did you receive any United States Government funds or did 
any organization with which you are associated receive any 
United States Government funds in connection with such 
activities? 

MR. SILBERT: That is such a broad-ranging question, 
and unless I have some better idea as to gain how that is 
germane to the committee's inquiry. I object to the answer 
and will advise him not to answer it. 

It doesn't mean that a more precisely pinpointed question 
that focuses in on House Resolution 12. or deposition No. 2. 
I would make the same objection and instructions, but I do 
object to the question respectfully as phrased. 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 
2 Do you understand the question, Hr . Godson? 



UNCIASSIREO 



314 



mmim 



Hum- HIR253000 UI«wL.riWwll ttmV pj^Q^ ^,^ 



2713 
271U 
2715 
27 16 



A I think so. 

Q And are you refusing to answer the question? 

A YeS/ on advice of my counsel at this time. 



UNClASSra 



315 



NAME ■■ 
2717 
2718 
27 19 
2720 
2721 
2722 
2723 
272U 
2725 
2726 
llZl 
2728 
2729 
2730 
2731 
2732 
2733 
273U 
2735 
2736 
2737 
2738 
2739 
27U0 
2741 



HIR253000 



RPTS THOMAS 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE lis 



DCHN PARKER 
[ 1 : 00 p .ra. 1 

MR. FRYMAN: nr . Silbert, I have a series of 
additional questions in the same area concerning payment of 
United States Government funds to Mr. Godson in connection 
with the International Youth Year. Is it your position that 
you will advise your client not to answer such questions. 

MR. SILBERT: i am not prepared to say that. I 
would have to hear each specific question, and then try to 
make an assessment as to whether that question, given my 



priori 



>bjections. continuing objectionj/. he should an 



swer . 



BY MR. FRYHAH: 
Q Were national strategy information center bank 
accounts used in connection with your activities with 
respect to the International Youth Year? 

MR. SILBERT: x am not sure I understand that 
question. Do you? i 

THE WITNESS: x nay have some idea, but this points 
to the purpose of us having consulted about these matters. 

HR. FRYMAN: Do you understand the question? 

THE WITNESS: x an not sure I do either. I may be 
abla to. I an not sure. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
fi What is it you do not understand about the 




J 



316 



NAME: 

2742 
2743 
2744 
274S 
2746 
2747 
2748 
2749 
27S0 
2751 
2752 
2753 
2754 
2755 
2756 
2757 
2758 
2759 
2760 
2761 
2762 
2763 
2764 
2765 



HIR253000 



question? 



ONCLASSIRED 



PAGE 116 



rtR. SILBERT: Ha is not prepared to answer. I 
have:i't discussed this subject matter with hin at all. I 
have to step out and give -de background, so I could be able 
to counsel hin with respect to these matters. Again, that 
particular question, I do have problems with aM^ relevance 
as well. I just don't understand how it relates even to 
Deposition Number 2. 

rtR. FRYMAN: The pending question is what is it 
about the question that I asked that he does not understand. 

HR. SILBERT: I know I didn't understand it. 
something to do with any bank accounts used — 

BY HR. FRYMAN: ny question is Mr. Godson's 
undi 

THE WITNESS: I am afraid I have to explain to him 
what I think may be involved. Can we go outside fox a 
minute? 

MR. FRYMAN: Let the record reflect the witness has 
asked to confer with counsel, and we will go off the record. 

[Recess. 1 

HR. FRYMAN: Let's make break and resume at 2 
o'clock. 

[Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m. the deposition was 
recessed, to reconvene at 2:00 p.m. the same day. 1 



lerstanq^nr. Silbext. 



IINCUSSiFe 



317 



NAME : 
2766 
2767 
2768 
2769 
2770 
277 1 
2772 
2773 
2774 
2775 
2776 
2777 
2778 
2779 
2780 
2781 
2782 
2783 
278U 
2785 
2786 
2787 
2788 
2789 
2790 



HIR253000 



RPTS CA 



■-UKcussife 



PAGE 117 



DCHH KOEHLER 

AFTERNOOH SESSION 

BY MR. FRYHAH: 

S Mr. Godson, would you generally describe the nature 

of your involvement in the activities relating to the 

International Youth Year? 

A I had been studying international youth affairs for 

many years, and began a study of the International Youth 

r 
Year back in the early 1980!^. I played a role in 

encouraging the United States Governnent as well as the 

Jamaican and other governments to have a major international 

conference . 

I uorked uith youth in the United States and abroad, to 
encourage participation of democratic youth groups in the 
first-ever global conference of democratic youth. I played 
no role whatsoever in handling the money or in making any of 
the key decisions. These were decisions that were made by 
governments and by the youth groups themselves. 

I know of no discussion or actual diversion of any 
funds to the Kicaraguan democratic resistance in connection 
uith youth activity. The chart, I know of no reason why any 
youth organization should be mentioned, should be indicated 
there, and I never have seen this or was involved in any 



wtiwe 



318 



HAKE: 
2791 
2792 
2793 
279U 
279S 
2796 
2797 
2798 
2799 
2800 

280 1 
2802 
2803 
280(4 
2805 
2806 
2807 
2808 
2809 
2810 

281 1 
2812 
2813 
28114 
2815 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 118 



discussion or activity pertaining to this chart or the 
diversion of any iunds to the Nicaraguan denocratic 
resistance . 

Q Did you discuss your activities in connection with 
the International Youth Year with any enployee of the 
National Security Council? 

A Yes. 

fi Uhich enployee? 

A Several. Walt Raynond was the prinary person. 

2 Did you ever discuss your activities in any way 
with Oliver North? 

A I have no recollection of any conversation about 
that. 

8 Did you discuss your activities with tlr . 
Cannistraro? 

A I an sura he was aware that I worked on that 
project, but this was--Ualt Raymond was the prinary person at 
NSC responsible. I nay have discussed it. X discussed 
youth affairs in general with Halt Raynond. I cannot say 
that nr . Cannistraro was never present when those 
discussions took place, but in the nain, nz . Raynond was the 
person at the NSC who dealt with youth natters. 

2 So you have any infornation with respect to whether 
nr . Raynond ever discussed your activities with Colonel 
North? 



"fmmm 



319 



HAHE: 
2816 
2817 
2818 
2819 
2820 
2821 
2822 
2823 
282U 
2825 
2826 
2827 
2828 
2829 
2830 
2831 
2832 
2833 
283U 
2835 
2836 
2837 
2838 
2839 
2840 



HIR253000 






PAGE 1 19 



A I have no information at all. 

Q The conference held in Jamaica in April 1985, what 
did you understand to be the purpose of that conference? 

A The purpose was to bring democratic youth, youth 
from democratic organizations together to discuss future 
problems that would face youth into the future, and to 
consider whether to establish an on+going youth 
organization, a global democratic youth organization. 

2 Uas that to be known as a secretariat? 

A My recollection--! can't remember the name, but no, 
the secretariat was designed to be the secretariat to 
the--there was a secretariat for the conference itself. I 
mean that is a formal international procedure to have a 
secretariat for the conference, and if there was a follou-up 
organization, there would be a secretariat to a follow-up 
organization . 

2 Was there a delegation from Nicaragua at this 
conference in Jamaica? 

A I believe there was . 

2 Did you have any contact with that delegation? 

A Ko, I did not. I mean. I can't say I didn't see 
them in the corridors, something like that, but I don't 
remember any conversation with then. 

2 In your description of your involvement in the 
International Youth Year activities, as I understand your 



Mrnrnn 



320 



28U1 
28U2 
28>43 
28U>4 
28U5 
28U6 
2847, 
28M8 
2849 
2850 
2851 
2852 
2853 
285M 
2855 
2856 
2857 
2858 
2859 
2860 
2861 
2862 
2863 
286(4 
2865 



HIR253000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 120 



answer, you indicated that you did not have control over any 
government funds, is that correct? 

A Correct. . 

2 Were you paid £or your involvement in these 
activities? 

A In part, yes, as a consultant and the first to USIA 
in the early 1980]s, and in part as a consultant to the HSC . 

2 And any payitents that you received were in one of 
those capacities, as a consulting fee to one of those two 
organizations? 

A Exactly. 

2 Are you aware of the deposit of any United States 
Government funds to any account of the National Strategy 
Information Center relating to the International Youth Year? 

A In 1981, I think there was a grant to the National 
Strategy Information Center, in 1981. 

e Was that a USIA grant? 

A Yes. 

2 And after 1981? 

A I don't recall any other grant from USIA. I can't 
swear there wasn't one. It may have continued into 193%, 
but it was at that period. It was to do a study of 
International Youth Year for the United States Government. 

2 And other than that USIA grant, you are not aware 
of any other government funds relating to the International 



"wuss/fe 



321 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR2S3000 V I 1 VUI llLf >k^ 3 i !U JkF PAGE 121 

2866 Youth Year being deposited in any MSIC account? 

2867 A Right. 

2868 2 That is correct? 

2869 A Correct. 

2870 2 Turning back to Exhibit 2, Hr . Godson; you have 
287 1 testified that you first saw that chart either in the Tower 

2872 Commission Report or in a newspaper article describing the 

2873 Tower Commission Report, and when you saw it, you were 

287U concerned about the box with the entry that appears to be an 

2875 abbreviation for the International Youth Committee or 

2876 International Youth Commission, and you ware concerned that 

2877 that box might be identified with your work in some way or 

2878 other? 

2879 A Correct. 

2880 2 Did you recognize any of the other entities on that 

2881 chart? 

2882 A Well, the box, the only arrow I see from that box 

2883 is to FDM, and I had assumed FDK was the main body of the 
288>4 Hicaraguan military arm that is fighting the Sandinlsta 

2885 government. 

2886 2 Let's approach it another way, Mr. Godson. 

2887 Focusing at first on the top line of the chart, the first 

2888 box Is KZPL. Did you recognize that? 

2889 A Let me say I recognized nothing, — I recognized 

2890 nothing on the top line at all. Youth something or other. 



i^mim 



322 



NAHE: 

2891 
2892 
2893 
289M 
2895 
2896 
2897 
2898 
2899 
2900 
2901 
2902 
2903 
2904 
2905 
2906 
2907 
2908 
2909 
2910 
291 1 
2912 
2913 
29114 
2915 



HIR253000 



iWSSlfB 



PAGE 122 



and then I didn't, at that time, recognize this one, KSI. 
but I guess I now want to interpret that as ISI. 

2 You mean INSI? 

A Oh, if that is what that is, I don't know. I 
didn't recognize any. That IK or H? 

2 In recognizing that, you do not associate that with 
the Institute for Horth-South Issues? 

A It occurred to me it could have been. It occurred 
to me, but that wasn't what concerned me when I first saw 
the chart. 

2 Did you recognize any of the entities identified in 
any of the other boxes on the top line? 

A Ko. 

2 You did not know what IDEA stood for? 

A No. 

2 Or the GNC Foundation? 

A Ko. 

2 And what about the box next to the International 
Youth Committee? 

A No. 

S Or commission? 

A No. I still don't. 

2 On tha next line there is a box around the 
initials, IBC . Did you recognize that? 

A I was not fully — I don't remember when, at what 



uNtussro 



323 



UNCUSSIFIED 



NAHE- HIR253000 U I « UL_f IW ■ I ik«V pxGZ 123 

2916 point it hit ma that Richard Miliar had a company called 

2917 somathing with IBC in it, but it didn't initially, bacausa I 

2918 didn't deal with that company. 

2919 e So, at the time you first read this chart, you had 

2920 not realized that IBC was Hr . Millar's company? 

2921 A Correct. 

2922 2 What about IC, Inc. on that line? 

2923 A That sort of struck a ball bacausa I think I 

292<4 remember the account in the Cayman Islands had IC as part of 

2925 its letters and numbers, as I recall, so it concerned me 

2926 when I saw it. 

2927 S At the time you first saw this chart in the paper? 

2928 A I can't remember if it was that very day, whether 

2929 it was that day or tha naxt day, ox two days later. 

2930 2 And what about tha box on that same line that 

2931 appears to saly IC8A or SA? 

2932 A It didn't mean anything to ma other than on the 

2933 first one. 

293U e Hhat about tha box that contains tha word, 

2935 "Lake''? 

2936 A I had navar heard of it until tha hearings became 

2937 public. 

2938 fi Had you aver had any discussion with Colonel North 

2939 about any Swiss bank account? 

2940 A Mo. 



IINCUSSIflED 



324 



NAHE: 
2941 
2942 
2943 
29414 
2945 
2946 
2947 
2948 
2949 
2950 
2951 
2952 
2953 
2954 
2955 
2956 
2957 
2958 
2959 
2960 
2961 
2962 
2963 
2964 
2965 



HIR253000 



UNCUSSIFiED 



PAGE 124 



Q And no ona had ever told you about an account in a 
Swiss bank called the ''Lake Account*'? 

A No. 

S The boK with the initials, FDN, you indicated 
earlier you believe you recognized those initials? 

A The initials of the main body fighting against the 
Sandinista government. 

2 And the box beside that appears to have UNO. 

A I recognize that as UNO. I thought that might be 
UNO, which became the coordinating body of the resistance. 

2 What about the two boxes beneath that? 

A I can't actually read. Hy eyes aren't good enough. 
I couldn't tell you what those letters are. 

2 Do you see the names beside the boxes, beside the 
box on the left, K»brgl 4Eg=v and beside the box on the right, 

A 

the name, Cruz? 

A I can't read it right. I can sea the left, and I 
do see Hubellu 

2 Did you notice those names when you first read the 
chart? 

A Hot really, because — I mean I didn't study it. It 
wasn't something I was studying. The only one where I 
thought it night Immediately lead to false inference as 
pertains to the Intl Youth Conn. 

2 Finally, Hr . Godson, just to finish this chart, at 



Mmn 



325 



HIR253000 



UNCIiSSiFIED 



PAGE 125 



NAME: 

2966 th« bottom lave! that* is a box with tha initials ACE in it. 

2967 Did you racogniza thosa initials? 

2968 A No, I didn't. 

2969 2 And than furthar to tha right, thara aia six 

2970 additional boxas that hava Udall Daiax. 

297 1 A I can say tha othais ara naaning lass to ma. 

2972 S Thata is ona additional box that is out basida tha 

2973 box that has tha word, ''Laka,'* in it. Do you saa that? 
297<4 A This ona, you maan? 

2975 S Yas. 

2976 A Is that what that says? 

2977 HR. SILBERT: Ko , this says, Llka. 

2978 THE WITNESS: I don't avan know what that says. I 

2979 can't zaad it and that doasn't maan anything to na , whatavar 

2980 that is. 

2981 BY HR. FRYHAK: 

2982 S It appaats to hava tha lattars BOL. 

2983 A If that is BOL, it still doasn't maan anything to 
298U ma. 

2985 fi Did you avaz hava any contact with Richard tlillaz. 

2986 apart from tha mattars that you hava dascribad involving tha 

2987 transfars oi tha contributions that had baan arzangad by 

2988 Tarry Slaasa and John Hlrtla? 

2989 A Not to my racollaction. I think I only saw him 

2990 onca or twlca in my lifa. 



lINCUSSIflEO 



326 




V. 



KXnt< HIR2S3000 w ■ » Wfc« »«» «r - • -— — pj^gj ,26 

2991 S Bo you tacall attamptlng to taach Ht . Miller by 

2992 t«laphon« at his oiilca, and ha not being present in the 

2993 office, and your leaving a message that it was urgent that 
299U he get back to you promptly, that you were about to leave 

2995 for Europe? 

2996 KR. SXLBERI' Can you put any tim^^rane? Can you 

2997 give the year? 

2998 IH£ HXTNESS: I don't renember that. The only 

2999 reasons I would have been interested in getting something 

3000 from llr . Killer would have been the precise name, you know, 
the method transferring the f unds^^^^^^^^^^^H That 

3002 was the basis of my relationship with Hr . Hiller, and the 

3003 only thing Z can say is, if he says that there was such a 
300U message left at his office, that I did travel to Europe, I 

3005 do travel to Europe, and it was quite likely I was trying to 

3006 get--it is entirely plausible I was just trying to get the 

3007 name, the number of the account. 

3008 BY HR. FRYHAK-- 

3009 e And you were not trying to contact him about any 

3010 other subject? 

3011 A Z was not involved with him In any other subject 
30 12 other thanj 

3013 e Hex* you aware of Hr. nillar's role in attempting 

30 1(4 to obtain the release of hostages In the diddle East? 
30 15 A Z was unaware of it, and li he was. It was the 



*%ffi 



// 



327 



NAMr : 
3016 
3017 
3018 
30 19 
3020 
302 1 
3022 
3023 
3024 
302S 
3026 
3027 
3028 
3029 
3030 
3031 
3032 
3033 
3034 
3035 
3036 
3037 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 127 



first tins I hava h«aid it. 



2 And you had no contact with hin with laspact to 
that? 

A Corrttct. 

2 Did you hava any knoul«dg« of a supposed Saudi 
prince naned Alnasudi? 
A No. 

Q Havfa you ttvar met Carl Channall? 

A You asked ne that before, and to ny knowledge, no. 
Q Have you ever met Dan Conrad? 
A To my knowledge, no. 
C One of Mr. Channell's associates? 
A I didn't know that, but no, I don't think so. 
2 Have you ever had any involvement in — 

nn. SILBERT: Mho was that last name? 

THE HITNESS: Dan Conrad. 

HR. SILK«':Conrad? 

BY HR. FRYHAK: 
2 Have you ever had any involvement in the 
fundraising activities of Mr. Channell's organizations? 
A No. 

m. FRYnAN: Off the record. 



"Ncussm 



328 



NAHE: 
3038 
3039 
30U0 
30(41 
301*2 
30U3 
3041* 
30US 
30(46 
30(47 
30(48 
30>49 
3050 
30S1 
3052 
3053 
305(4 
3055 
3056 
3057 
3058 
3059 
3060 
3061 
3062 



"WSS/flfi 





HIR253000 iBtiftB '*°^ '28 

RPIS THOMAS -*-■«. 

OCHN PARKER 
(2:30 p.m. ] 

BY MR. FRYHAK: 

2 Mr. Godson, going back to our discussion of tha 
contributions that was ultiaataly mada by tha Haritaga 
Foundation and your conversation with Mr. Feulnar> as I 
recall your testimony, you stated that you informed Mr. 
Feulner in the initial conversation that these were funds 
being raised for the purpose of transferring them to| 
^^^^^^^^^ is that correct? 

A Correct. 

fi Did you have further conversations with Hz. Feulner 
about that grant? 

A Other than that day you mean? 

& Yes. 

A I don't recall any other. He was leaving, as I 
recall, to travel abroad, and I think he instructed me to 
deal with Mr. Trulock. I think that is what happened. 
There would be no other reason for me to have discussed it. 

e Have you discussed that grant with Mr. Feulner any 
time this year? 

A Yes, sir, I have. 

2 Hhen did you discuss it? 

A I don't remember the date. 



ONwssife 



329 



NAHE ■ 
3063 
30614 
3065 
3066 
3067 
3068 
3069 
3070 
3071 
3072 
3073 
3074 
3075 
3076 
3077 
3078 
3079 
3080 
3081 
3082 
3083 
308(4 
3085 
3086 
3087 



HIR253000 



DNCLASSIREO 



PAGE 129 



2 Within the last three months. 

A Yes. 

2 Hou did that conversation come about? 

A He called me telling me that there was a newspaper 
journalist conferring with counsel--neuspaper , particular 
journalist who was likely to be hostile to the Heritage 
Foundation, and I had come across their grants to the 
institute ior rj^or th/south |f£airs, and he was calling to ask 
me what I recalled about the grant. 

I think it was Hr . Xrulock called ne first. Hr . 
Trulock called ma first. I then returned the call to rtr . 
reulnez/ then I think we had a three-way conversation> 
Trulock, Faulner and myself, on the telephone in which he 
said ha forgot what the purpose of that grant was. I said I 
remembered it very clearly. 

He remembered what it was. Ua agreed that Hr . 
Trulock would not tall tha journalist tha purpose intended 
by tha recipient of that grant. '' 

2 You reminded him of youz original conversation with 
him where you had stated tha purpose. 

A Correct. 

S Did he indicate that that then refreshed his 
raoollaotion about tha purpose. 

A It did, but ha also asked ma what was the Institute 
for the North/South. In other words, ha oouldn't remember. 



UNCLASSlRFfl 



330 



NAK2: 
3088 
3089 
3090 
309 1 
3092 
3093 
3094 
3095 
3096 
3097 
3098 
3099 
3100 
3101 
3102 
3103 
3tOU 
310S 
3106 
3107 
3108 
3109 
31 10 
311 1 
31 12 




'^-iri[i 




HII1253000 VllVbllVVII IL.A/ PAGE 130 
didn't appear to taaembaz tha uhola transaction, and so I 
ramlnded hin thara was nr . Millar, and ha uas--thay uara--nr. 
Channal/uas on tha talaphona. I was trying to ba somawhat 
dlscra^jk/ about this, but ha understood that that uasi 

land tha institute was the nethod of transferring, 
and ha seened to accept that. 

He agreed — instructed Mr. Trulock not to inform the 
journalist about it. 

C Have you had any further discussions with Mr. 
Feulner about this grant? 

A Yes, I had one further discussion with hia about it 
on the night when Congressnan Fascell asked questions about 
my meetings with Colonel Horth and about Mr. Donahue and Hz. 
Hirtle and ha was informed by Colonel North this was agreed 
this would not be a subject for public discussion; that tha 
committee had apparently made some determination it wouldn't 
be discussed in public. 

Mr. reulner's office — I was on jury duty — that Hr . 
Feulner's office, during the course of tha day apparently 
issued soma sort of statement to tha press about tha remarks 
which Congressman Fascell had made. The journalist inquired 
of me that evening. I deferred to comment about who the 
recipient of tha funds — Mr. Trulock apparently had told the 
journalist from their inquiries of ma that I had asked the 
Heritage Foundation to transfer tha funds to tha Institute 




331 



3113 
31 IM 
3 115 
3116 
3117 
3 1 18 
3119 
3120 
312 1 
3122 
3123 
312(t 
3125 
3126 
3127 
3128 
3129 
3130 
3131 
3132 
3133 
313(( 
3135 
3136 
3137 



HIR25~000 



UNWSSiFlO 



PAGE 131 



for North/South Affairs, suggesting they were doing this 
only because X and Mr. Slease had done this. 

Hr . Feulnet had called me in the evening after--this 
was later in the evening, fairly recent, as I remember this 
quite well--and was apparently out of the city or just 
returned to the city that day and said he was unaware Mr. 
Trulock had made this statement. And we both agreed it was 
unfortunate, especially as he knew the reasons for the 
transfer of the funds, and this obviously left a false 
impression . 

But given the sensitivity of the recipient, we 
decided to live with the fact that the record reflected 
somewhat adversely on me and Mr. Slease, and just decided to 
leave it at that. 

HR. FRYHAN: Hr . Godson, I have no further 
questions. Mr. HcGough. I believe, now has some questions!. 

BY MR. nCGOUGH: 
2 I will follow up a few. 

Hr . Godson, outside of the discussions with Colonel 
North that you have already described, did you ever discuss 
with him on any other occasions the needs of the Nicaragua 
resistance for financial support. 
A Mo, I didn't. 
2 Did you ever-- 
A Kot to my recollection. 




332 



NAHE 
3138 
3139 
SlUO 
31t«1 
31<42 
3143 
31Ut4 
311*5 
3146 
3147 
31>48 
31U9 
3150 
3151 
3152 
3153 
3154 
3155 
3156 
3157 
3158 
3159 
3160 
3161 
3162 



iiNW.ssm 






HIR253000 iSlia^g!;.r?.1.9\.3!3 9 HmU PXGK 132 

2 Did h* avar taquast or suggast to you that you 
solicit itonay for any othax causa at all? 

A Wa — any other causa othaz than tha subjact nattar of 
tha Investigation that you aza talking about here. 
2 Other than what wa discussed already?! 

did ha ever discuss or ask you to raise 
noney for anything other than! 

n the circuastances you have described? 
A Are you asking about any other part of tha world 
have to do to witl^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^v 

don't understand tha question. 

e I think it is. yes, tha answer to your question for 
clarification, any othaz part of tha world. Did Colonel 
North aver ask you to raise money for anything else other 
than^^^^ 

A I am trying to think. I don't recall anything 
specific, no. 

Q The qualification you don't recall anything 
specific bothers me a little bit. 

A I can't say that I didn't have — can I talk to my 
counsel? 

nR. HCGOUGH: Suze. 

[Confazzlng with counsel.] 

MR. SXLBERT: I think wa Mill have to step outside, 

HR. nCGOUGH: Okay. 



ISiaSSlFlffl 



I 



1 



333 



NAME' 
3163 
316U 
3165 
3166 
3167 
3168 
3169 
3170 
3171 
3172 
3173 
317U 
3175 
3176 
3177 
3178 
3179 
3180 
3181 
3182 
3183 
318K 
3185 
3186 
3187 



HI11253000 



UNCUSSIFIEB 



PAGE 133 



I R«c*ss . ] 

THE HITNESS: Tha ansu*r to your quastion is I 
cannot racall a spaclfic Incldant uh«ia ua askad na to laisa 
funds for anything alsa. 
BY KR. nCGOUGH: 

S Did you avar discuss with Hz. Millar. Richard 
Millar, that is, what, ii any, coapansation ha or INS or 
anyona alsa associatad with him might taka out oi tha 
donation or contribution? 

A Mo, I did not. I actually didn't assusa ha was 
taking anything. 

e You had no information that ifflNS or Mr. Miliar 
daductad any amount from thosa contributions prior to 
passing tham on tol 

A Ko. I was doing this pro bono. I assumad ha was. 

8 Did you discuss that spacifioally with him? 

A No. 

fi Did you discuss compansation? 

A No> It didn't coma up. 

fi Did Colonal Korth avar mantion anything to you on 



this? 



A 
fi 



No. 



In your oonvarsatlons with Nx. North. Colonal 

r Mr .^ an aah aBKy , did you avar discuss 



North, Mr. Hcfarlana or Mr. -B an aa fc aef , did y 

tha tax daductlbillty of any contributions that might ba 



Ml 



wr'T 



• vJ' ♦»-■' ' 



334 



NAHE' 

3188 
3189 
3190 
3191 
3192 
3193 
3194 
3 195 
3196 
3197 
3198 
3199 
3200 
3201 
3202 
3203 
320U 
3205 
3206 
3207 
3208 
3209 
3210 
321 1 
3212 



HZX253000 



ONCUSSIFIED 



PtG2 13<« 



made tc 

X I don't iftcall av«r discussing those datalls with 
than. I didn't--it wasn't their business, wasn't their 
profession as far as I was concerned. That was me in my 
role as a private citizen who knew about tax t^eductible 
contributions . 

2 And in that role, knowing about that, you were 
aware of the tax deductibllity--would be an incentive for 
someone to make a contribution. 

It would ^o^^^^^^^^^B y^s- ^ thought It would 
be. 

e An incentive tc^^^^^^^^^H>r the 

contributor? 

A To the contributor, but oi course we figure there 
may be others who wouldn't particularly want to. That is 
why there were two different accounts. 

e You did discuss the tax deductibility with Hr . 



niller. 
A 
& 
A 

e 



Yes, sir. 

You talk about two different ways to do It. 

Yes. 



You said there may be people who might not want to 
take tax deductions for it. Why did you assume that. 

A I don't know. I. just in case there was somebody 
to do it. I wanted to have a way to do it. I wasn't 



uiUSSIflEB 



335 



NAHE : 
3213 
3214 
321S 
32 16 
3217 
3218 
3219 
3220 
3221 
3222 
3223 
322<4 
3225 
3226 
3227 
3228 
3229 
3230 
3231 
3232 
3233 
3234 
3235 
3236 
3237 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 135 



planning to naK« tha solicitations, but it was just an 
option . 

2 Was thaie anything about the contribution that led 
you to beliavA it night not ba tax deductible? 

A No, it wasn't that it was to tax deductible, 
quickly at hand the nechanisn for doing this. Actually, Mr. 
Millei did not give me details until I said we actually had 
somebody who wanted to actually make the contribution. 

2 It is a little bit perplexing to me a bit that you 
would have two avenues of making the same contribution, one 
that would--only difference being one tax deductible and one 
not tax deductible. 

A I have never been fortunate to ba in a position to 
worry about whether to make that determination, whether to 
make a contribution tax deductible or not. I understand 
soma people who are in that position do have reasons why 
they ch^e to do it. I can't tell you why they do it. All 
I know thay like to do that. 

3 In other words, you say there are soma people who 
prefer not to take tha tax deduction? 

A I don't know if they can take it. I don't know the 
machanisa that you use to take or not take tax deductions. 
I just don't know tha reasons why. 

fi Did you ever discuss tax deductibility of these 
contributions with Hr . Slease? 



UNCIASSIREO 



336 



iciissra 



NAMI: HIX253000 :IIV||| mULIll ll-l^ PAGE 136 

3238 A Other than to say we had a tax deductible way and 

3239 no tax deductible way, no. 

32(40 fi Did you discuss why there were two ways? 

32U1 A No. 

32(«2 8 Did you ever have any contact with Mr. Miller's 

32<43 partner, Frank Gomez? 

32UU A I don't believe I have met him. 

32>4S 2 Did you ever meet an individual by the name oi 

32M6 Kevin Katke? 

32(47 A Kot to my knowledge. 

32(48 S Here you ever asked by Hr . Slease or anyone else 

32(49 associated with these contributions tol 

3250 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^<> supply or obtain documentation to support 

3251 a tax deduction ior the contribution? 

3252 A Hho asked me? 

3253 S Did anyone associated with these contributions ever 
325(4 ask you for documentation that might support a tax deduction 

3255 under these contributions? Did they ask for an IRS letter 

3256 of determination for 501 (c)3 corporation? Did you ever act 

3257 as conduit for any kind of information? 

3258 A Kot to the contributors. I had no contact with the 

3259 contributors. To this day. I have not met any people who 

3260 contributed to this. 

326 1 2 HoH about to Hr . Slease or Heritage Foundation? 

3262 A Hell, they — I don't knoM how they — with Hr . Slease, 



BNCMSSii 




337 



3263 
32614 
3265 
3266 
3267 
3268 
3269 
3270 
3271 
3272 
3273 
32714 
327S 
3276 
3277 
3278 
3279 
3280 
3281 
3282 
3283 
328(4 
3285 
3286 
3287 



HIR2S3000 



DNCLftSSIHED 



PAGE 137 



h» just ask«d ma if I thought--! said th« institute was tax 
daductlbl*. Thar* as such an instituta, and it was tax 
daductibla. Ha accaptad my word. 

2 And on what did you basa-- 

A Ka saamad to accept ny word. Ha didn't challanga 
It. 



8 Did ha ask for documentation? 

A I don't recall him asking for documentation. To be 
fair to him I think he would assume that I am responsible, 
and that I would have had some reason to believe that this 
was a tax deductible--this was a foundation or entity that 
qualified to receive tax deductible funds. 

2 Did you ever ask Colonel Korth or anyone else why 
the contribution wasn't made directly tol 




Well, to me it was obvious why. I didn't ask. It 




2 I don't hava any further questions. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 

UNMSSIRED 



338 



HIR2S3000 



UNCLASSIFIED .... 



138 




Hint- 

3288 fi Hx . Godson, do you know whathar in fact th« nonay 

3289 avar actually raachedj 

3290 I Ko. 

329 1 C Did you avar ask anyona uhathai or not it reached 
3292^^^^ 
3293 k I assumed iron the fact that-- 

329t4 HR. SILBERT: The question is — 

3295 THE HITHESS: The answer is no. 

3296 BY MR. OLIVERS 

3297 Q Did Colonel North or Rich niller tell you that this 

3298 IC account which they collected to have checks nade out, did 
they you was^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Lccoun^? 

3300 A Ko. 

330 1 e Here you aware that the principals on that account 

3302 were Hr . Hiller and Mr. Gonez? 

3303 A Ko, X didn't know who, don't even know what the 
330(( word principal neans . I just assumed Miller controlled the 

3305 account. 

3306 2 So it is possible that the money could have gone 
elsewhere other than^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Honce 

3308 that account? 

3309 I It is possible. 

3310 S Is it possible that the money could have gone to 
33 11 lake Resources from that account? 

3312 HR. SILBERT: Excuse me. 




mm 



f- ..- >•; , -S » 



339 



NAME ' 
3313 
331M 
33 IS 
33 16 
3317 
3318 
3319 
3320 
3321 
3322 
3323 
3321 
3325 
3326 
3327 
3328 
3329 
3330 
3331 
3332 
3333 
33314 
3335 
3336 
3337 



DNClCTO 



HIR253000 II111LIL.I •V^^'"' PAGE 139 

HR. OLIVER: I uill withdraw tha question. 

Do you understand whether or not the noney went 
from that account to Lake Resources? 

THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 

riR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
make this Godson Exhibit <4 . 

[the document was marked as Deposition Exhibit 
Number U . I 

MR. OLIVER: I show the document to the witness. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 nr . Godson, this is a declassified copy of Olivet 
North's handwritten notes. On the first line it refers to a 
meeting with Rich, then below that it says rtario Calero is 
speaking to--it says, ''Roy Godson re European dollars.'' 

Do you know what that is in reference to? 

Off the record. 

[Discussion held off the record.] 

nR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

THE WITNESS: I haven't the slightest. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 

Did you ever discuss with Colonel North your 
Zuxopean f undj^raising for any of the projects that he was 
involved in? 

A I don't recall ever discussing that, recall 
discussing with North any of the projects that he was 



mmsm 



340 



NAME: 
3338 
3339 
33U0 
331(1 
33<42 
33>43 
33>4t4 
33K5 
33U6 
33U7 
3308 
331*9 
33S0 
3351 
3352 
3353 
335"* 
3355 
3356 
3357 
3358 
3359 
3360 
336 1 
3362 



HIR253000 



PAGE mo 



•"'"r lUNCUSSIFlEO 



A KO. 

2 Thesa notes ara from his — 
A I don't zecall any discussions. 

S Did you evaz attenpt to raise any nonay in Europe 
from European institutions or from European individuals for 
any projects or activities associated with the Nicaraguan 
resistance . 

A No, I did not. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark that as Exhibit Number--6odson Exhibit Number 5. 

[The document was marked as Deposition Number 5.] 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
2 This--nr. Godson, this is another page from Oliver 
North's notebooks, dated September 17, 1985. Toward the 
bottom of the page, there is several boxes, and the middle 



one says, 



'Godson to slip deadlin4.es. 



Do you know what that is in reference to? 

A No, we are taking your word that that is what it 
says. It Is completely illegible to me. 

S I will verify that it says to slip deadlines in the 
original copy. 

2 Did you have any discussions with Oliver North 
regarding a timetable for the ^itO,000 a month that you were 



yNCLASSIFIED 



341 



wmsse 



PAGE 1(41 




NKHE 

3363 attanptlng to lals* ioi 

336>4 k It uas «20,000. 

3365 . [Counsal confarzing with uitnass.l 

3366 nR. SILBERT: li you don't know. 

3367 THE WITNESS: I cartainly don't know what that 

3368 rafars to. 

3369 BY HR. OLIVER: 

3370 S Did you naka a comnitaant or hava a discussion with 
337 1 Colonal Noith about whan thase funds would ba available. 

3372 A Navaz a coanitnant ot I said I would try to neat 

3373 that, thosa amounts I would try. 

337>4 fi Do you zecall whathat or not in Saptanbar of 1985, 

3375 you wara attampting to raisa funds for Colonal North's 

3376 projacts at is raquast? 

3377 HR. SIIBERT: Fori 

3378 THE WITNESS : ^^^^^^^^^^^^^was arabodied at 

3379 that tima. That was tha only tlaa ha askad ma to do that. 

3380 BY HR. OLIVER: 

3381 Q Was that in this tin* pariod? 

3382 A I think — I don't hava axact racall, but, yas. it is 

3383 quita possible. 

338(4 e You hava no racollaction about a discussion with 

3385 him about slipping deadlines? 

3386 A No. 

3387 HR. OLIVER' I would like to ask the reporter to 








342 



HAME: 
3388 
3389 
3390 
3391 
3392 
3393 
3394 
339S 
3396 
3397 
3398 
3399 
3U00 
31401 
3>402 
3103 
340U 
3405 
3106 
3<407 
31*08 
3U09 

smo 

3<41 1 
3(412 






HIR253000 \j|\l]!LSr^^^-- PAGE 1U2 

maik this as Godson Exhibit Nunber 6. 

I Tha document reiarred to was marked as Exhibit 
Number 6 for identification. ] 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
2 I ask the witness to look at this document. This 
is. again, a copy of a page from Olivet North's notebook and 
on about January there is an entry there says. ''Public 
diplomacy. '* and there are iour entries before that. Your 
name appears there, and then at the bottom of the page it 
says, ''Call Miller are Godson.'* 

My first question is. were you involved in the 
public diplomacy program that was being coordinated by the 
Uhite House? 

A On Central America? 
8 Yes. 

A No. to my knowledge, no. When I say I was not 
participating in it to my knowledge, somebody else may have 
interpreted I may have been, but I wasn't. 

2 Oo you have any idea what that reference is to? 
A No, I am afraid Z don't. What was the date? 
2 January 6. 

HR. SIIBERT: What year? 

MR. OLIVER: I believe it is 1985, but, it is not 
marked on that tape, but — I an not sura. 
BY n&. OLIVER: 



UNCLA 



uoirlEo 



343 



HAKE : 

3u m 

34 IS 
3416 
3417 
34 18 
3U19 
3«20 
3421 
3U22 
3423 
342U 
3M25 
3U26 
3427 
3428 
3429 
3430 
3431 
3432 
3433 
3434 
3435 
3436 
3437 



l)NCW?S!F!ED 



HIR2S3000 11119^2 i'4')^xirH S i., IJ PAGE 143 

2 Uell. ny question, do you remember discussing 
public diplomacy with Colonel Korth? 

A Ko. 

Q Do you know why there uould be an entry there 
referring to calling tlilller are Godson. 

A I don't Know other than the reasons we have 
discussed hete before. 

S Did Colonel North aver discuss with you a request 
from Spitz Channel or any of his organization/ to seek your 
advice regarding setting up an international foundation. 

A No, he did not. 

e Did he ever request--did he ever discuss with you 
Spitz Channel's organization? I an referring to Colonel 
North. 

A I don't recall any discussion with Colonel North on 
this subject at all. 

2 After the April 1985 Jamaica Youth Conference, was 
there a debt from the expenses of the conference that you or 
any of the people who participated in the conference as your 
associates felt an obligation to pay, a financial debt? 

A I don't know. I don't recall any. I once knew, I 
suspect, but I have forgotten. It is not something I work 
on. It Is too many years. 

Q Were you aware of an audit of the International 
Youth Conference carried out by Coopers and fc)[brand in 1985. 



UNGUSSIHEB 



344 



Hknt- 

3438 
3439 
3440 
34141 
34U2 
3443 
3444 
3445 
3446 
3447 
3448 
3449 
3450 
3451 
3452 
3453 
3454 
3455 
3456 
3457 
3458 
3459 
3460 
3461 
3462 



HIR253000 



mmmm 



PAGE 144 



A X knew there was an audit by somebody. 

S Did you ever receive a copy oi that audit? 

A I personally did not. 

2 Did you ever see a copy oi the audit. 

A I think the first time I saw the copy of the audit 
I think was when I iound out that your investigators had 
visited Earl Silbert's ofiice and been interested in that 
audit. I don't recall seeing it beiore that time. 

2 That audit was in your files? 

A Apparently. 

2 Are you familiar with an organization called the 
International Youth Trust Jamaica Limited? 

A I am not familiar with it. 

2 You indicated earlier that you had signed a 
contract with the National Security Council for your 
consultancy; is that correct? 

A Correct. 

2 Was that a renewable contract that had to be 
renewed annually or was it a contract that ran from the 
beginning oi your consultancy until the end? 

A I think it is the latter. 

e Old you> in order to be paid, have to submit a 
voucher for the services performed? 

A I submitted hours, hours that I worked, yas . 

2 Did that include a description of what you worked 



mmm 



345 



KAflE ; 
3M63 
3>46(4 
3116S 
3M66 
31467 
3U68 
3U69 
31470 
347 1 
3U72 
3473 
3474 
3475 
3476 
3477 
3478 
3479 
3480 
3481 
3482 
3483 
3484 
3485 
3486 
3487 



'^mim 



PAGE 145 



No, it did not, just included the numbtti of hours. 
Uera you a menber of the CIA transition team in 



HIR2S3000 
on. 

A 

2 
1980? 

A Yes. 

Q How did you happan to bacoma a nembar of the CIA 
transition team? 

tlR. SILBERT: Unlass I hear an explanation as to 
hou that relates to this inquiry, I am going to direct hira 
not to answer . 

MR. OLIVER: Wall, Hr . Silbert, the director of 
CIA, Mr. Casey, was a prime player in this drama and the 
individuals with whom Mr. Godson was associated at the 
National Sacuxity Council were members of the Intelligence 
Directorate. A number of the activities that have been 
discussed here have a relationship to CIA activities, at 
least indirectly, and what I am trying to do is to lay a 
foundation for questions relating to his association with 
the CIA, which was, as you know, involved in the transfers 
of arms ts Iran. 

That is the purpose of my question was to lay a 
foundation for those questions. 

HR. SILBERT: ona difficulty with that entire area 
is I don't know whether it relates to qM^fi|^jS^ mater lal or 
not, but in as far as anything that Godson did involving 



IWSSffJ 



346 



iiNtiftssro 



MAHE: HIR2S3000 I II lULiI IW^' ■ " • — " PAGE 146 

3>488 classified natarial, I hav« never discussed it with hin, as 

3'489 I have said, repeatedly during this meeting. I Know nothing 

3(t90 about what he did, if it involves classified activity, 

3(491 unless I get a clearance I am going to advise him not to 

3U92 answer it, because he is not going to testify about matters 

3M93 X have not discussed with him. 

3(49>4 KR. OLIVER: I believe we discussed this very 

3>495 subject during the interview in Hr . Fryman's office some 

3U96 weeks ago. There was no objection raised. 

3197 MR. SILBERT: Hell, an informal conversation is one 

3(498 thing. This is a deposition. 

3(499 rtR. OLIVER: Are you directing the witness not to 

3500 answer the question? 

350 1 HR. SILBERT: If the answer in any way relates to 

3502 classified material--I don't mind asking him, of course, 

3503 about the activities that he did: how you got selected. I 
350(4 will direct him not to answer that question. I think that 

3505 gets into his own personal political private affairs beyond 

3506 this, particularly 1980, well beyond the scope of this 

3507 committee's mandate. 

3508 HR. OLIVER: So you are directing him not to 

3509 answer? 

3510 HR. SILBERT: Correct. 

351 1 BY HR. OLIVER: 

35 12 2 When did you first meet Walter Raymond? 



I 



I 



UNCLASSIFIED 



347 



1!' 




'itJ 



NAME: HIR253000 



PAGE 1147 



3513 

3514 
3515 
3516 
3517 



A Around the time I was in the transition team. 

2 Did you have any association with Halt Raymond from 
that period of time, professional association, I mean from 
that period of time until the time that you became 
consultant to the Security Council? 



itiAssro 



348 



Hxnt- 

3518 

3519 

3520 

3521 

3522 

3523 

3S2t( 

3525 

3526 

3527 

3528 

3529 

3530 

3531 

3532 

3533 

353t( 

3535 

3536 

3537 

3538 

3539 

35*40 

35>t1 

35U2 



HIR253000 
RPTS CANTOR 
DCMN niLTOM 
(3 = 00 ] 



PAGE 1(48 



MmmB 



HR. SILSERT: X thijik that is an at«a as I 
understand it> not that h« can -tall ma, othar than give 
conciusory statanant, that doas gat into CIAftalated, or may 
gat into CIA-ralatad matters that I have never discussed 
with hin, and he has not discussed with me because I don't 
thinK he is able to. He is not to answer the question, not 
confirming or denying that he had any relationship during 
that period oi time. 

HR. OLIVER: You are directing him not to answer 
the question based on your consultation with him? 

HR. SILBERT: Yes, and so you understand, one, I 
have some real questions about relevance, but 
understand that my real concern is the potential classified 
nature of the inquiry, and the fact that I am not cleared, I 
have no clearance, have never discussed any such subject 
with Hr. Godson. I just want to make clear for the record 
hare that Z don't know whether it is classified or not. I 
certainly do not want to confirm or deny any prior 
relationship. 

BY HK. OLIVER' 
e Itr. Godson, after you became a consultant to the 



mmmn 



349 



ONCLASSiREO 



PAGE 1149 



NAME: HIR253000 

3543 National Sacutity Council, did you discuss with Walt Raymond 

SSUU a projact to sacute privata-sactor iunding for Cantral 

35<45 Amarican public diplomacy activities? 

35U6 HR. SILBERT: I really should have left 20 minutes 

35147 ago. I uill stay fiva mora minutes, and then I'm going to 

3548 have to leave. If ua have to reschedule, we uill 

35>49 reschedule. 

3550 riR. OLIVER: I would like to mark as Godson Exhibit 

355 1 Ho . 7 a document on National Sacurity Council stationery, 

3552 which bears coramittaa identification No. H-SSUUO. and ask 

3553 the reporter to mark that exhibit. 

355U [The following document was marked as Godson 

3555 Deposition Exhibit 7 for identification: ) 

3556 BV HR. OLIVER: 

3557 2 I would like to ask Mr. Godson to examine that 

3558 document. 

3559 [Discussion off tha record. ] 

3560 MR. OLIVER: Back on tha record. 

3561 BY MR. OLIVER: 

3562 2 Hr. Godson, that is a Uhita House memorandum 

3563 related to Cantral American private-sector funding. There 
35614 is a paragraph thaza that refers to conversations that Mr. 

3565 Raymond had with you about funding. In examining that 

3566 document, do you recall those discussions with Mr. Raymond? 

3567 A I recall having discussions with Hr . Raymond 



UNCLASSIFIED 



350 



3568 

3569 
3570 
3571 
3572 
3573 
3571* 
3575 
3576 
3577 
3578 
3579 
3580 
3581 
3582 
3583 
35814 
3585 
3586 
3587 
3588 
3589 
3590 
3591 
3592 




jHLy 



HIR253000 UllULflWliS Hb-a^ PAGE ISO 
vaguely. This was not something that I regarded as a major 
priority or project for me > and ji^ I vaguely recall this 
conversation/ but I did not spend almost any time on Central 
American matters. 

2 Ware you involved in any way in assisting Mr. 
Raymond with acquiring private-sector funds for Central 
American public diplomacy programs? 

A I certainly was not involved in assisting Mr. 
Raymond in any way in acquiring funds as part of my NSC 
responsibilities . 

C Here you involved in any way other than your NSC 
responsibilities? 

A X don't recall almost any project relating to 
Central America. There may have been one or two, but it is 
not something that I regarded as a major priority for 
myself . 

S Do you recall. Mr. Godson, ever leaving a message 
on the 9th of January. 1986. for Admiral Poindexter, who at 
that time was the deputy — 

A No. I think by that tine ha had become the National 
Security Adviser. 

fi Hhere you indicated there might be an attack on him 
in the press soon? 

A I did not leave that message. Hy appointments with 
Admiral Poindexter, I never personally set up my 



HNtinssra 



351 



3S93 

3S9U 

3S9S 

3596 

3S97 

3S98 

3599 

3600 

3601 

3602 

3603 

360<4 

3605 

3606 

3607 

3608 

3609 

3610 

36 1 1 

3612 

3613 

36114 

3615 

3616 

3617 



HIR253000 



yNCLASSIRED 



PAGE 151 



appointments. I don't recall personally having left that 
message. Normally it would have been one secretary to 
another that I was dealing with. I would have asked Mr. 
DeGraffenreid's secretary who set up the meetings usually. 
I do recall having requested the meeting, a meeting, whether 
it was for that day or not, and I recall that. 

2 Do you remember having such a meeting or having 
such discussion with Admiral Poindextar? 
A About? 

2 About an attack on him in the press? 
A The word • 'attack' • is not correct. He talked 
about the press, his general views about meeting with the 
press, and the word "attack. •• as I said, it was not my 
term and I suspect it was a secretary who interpreted, one 
secretary interpreting to another. 

I was concerned that the Admiral maintain some 
contacts with the press, that he have contact with the 
press, and I was encouraging him to do that, and I thought 
that this would lead to him batter able to explain what he 
was trying to do. 

2 Did you ever talk to him or did you ever seek to 
talk to him about handling accounts? 

A Yes. The references to accounts in that discussion 
is as the Admiral remembered it when Congressman Fascell 
asked him the question. The word •• accounts'' refers to 



UNCUSSIHEO 



352 



NAHE 

3618 
3619 
3620 
3621 
3622 
3623 
362U 
3625 
3626 
3627 
3628 
3629 
3630 
3631 
3632 
3633 
363M 
3635 
3636 
3637 
3638 
3639 
36<40 
36U1 
36X2 



HIK253000 



UNCLASSIFJEO 



PAGE 152 



iW 



dlffaz«nt pzojacts. Ilka in assisting'^gency wa usa tha sana 
word at tha National stzatagy Inioznation cantaz. Paopla 
hava diffazant accounts. Soma paopla deal with businessmen, 
soma with tzada unions, soma with lawyazs, soma with youth, 
and that is what that zafazzad to, and I was asking tha 
Admizal who did ha want ma to ba zasponsibla to to infozm 
ma, as I was tha consultant to tha National Secuzity Advisez 
and as ha was tha fozmaz deputy and now ha was tha new 
National Sacuzity Advisaz, whom should I make my main point 
of contact to know about all my accounts. That is tha 
zefazenca to tha tazm ''accounts'' thaza. 

2 It did not zefaz to bank accounts in any way? 

A It did not zaiaz to bank accounts in any way. 

2 Did you avaz tall Admizal Poindaxtaz about youz 
fund-zaising activities on bahali ofj 

A No, I did not. 

2 Did you avaz tall anyona alsa in tha White House oz 

tha National Sacuzity Council about these activities othaz 

v Can rN'i?H-o.rcj . 
than Colonel Nozth. Mr . ^ r i ■ a 1 1 i ■ i > r, whoa you said you 

thought was auaza of it? 

A And HcFazlana to the extent he was pzesent at that 
meeting, just at that one meeting. No, I did not discuss it 
with anyon a else . I regarded it as something that should ba 
kept disczajU^. 

fi Did you avez discuss tha legislative eiiozts to 



m 



?i 







353 



NAni 

36143 
36I4U 
36(45 
36146 
3647 
36>48 
36(49 
3650 
3651 
3652 
3653 
365<4 
36S5 
3656 
3657 
3658 
3659 
3660 
3661 
3662 
3663 
36614 
3665 
3666 
3667 



UNCUSSIFIED . 



HIR253000 IIIHIII nUiJII IL.1^ PAGE 153 
acquiia congrasslonal funding fot tha daitoctatic xesistanca 
with any oi tha organizations that waia involvad in tha 
Centzal Anazican fteedom program? Ara you iamiliar with tha 
Central Amarican fraedon program? 

A No . 

2 Do you know Dan Kuykendall? 

A No. 

2 Lo you know Bruca Camaron? 

A I don't think so. 

r 

2 Do you know Pann Kj^mble? 

A Yas. 

2 Did you avar discuss with Pann IC^mbla his 
activitias in ralationship to congrassional funding for tha 
danocratic rasistanca? 

A No. 

i 

2 Uara you awara that Mr. Kxmble and Bruca Cameron 
took control of an organization callad IDEA, which was 
headad by Rob Ouan. latar becana tha Cantar for Oamocracy in 
tha Amaricas? 

A No. I don't know it, and if it is so now, you axa 
informing ma for tha first tima . 

Q Kara you awara of any othar individual in tha 
National Sacuzity Council or associatad with tha National 
Security Council as consultants who ware askad by Colonel 
North to raise funds fori 




UNCLASSIFitB 



82-710 0-88-18 



354 



NAME: 
3668 
3669 
3670 
367 1 
3672 
3673 
3674 
3675 
3676 
3677 
3678 
3679 
3680 
3681 
3682 
3683 
368U 
3685 
3686 
3687 
3688 
3689 
3690 
3691 
3692 










HIa2S3000 

A No. 

2 For any other activities in Central America or 
related to the democratic resistance? 

A Did I have any information about any other 
individuals ? 

8 Yes. 

A No, I don't think so. Central America, X repeat, 
was not an area of my major concern. 

Q You indicated earlier that you had known about the 
Institute for North-South Issues you thought from the 
National Endowment for Democracy, the fact that they had a-- 

A I had been interested in the work of the National 
Endowment for Democracy. Generally, I think I reviewed 
their reports. 

2 So that is how you think that came into your view? 

A I think so. 

2 You indicated you had set up I believe a 
foundation, a 501(c)(3) foundation, within the last year and 
a half. 

HR. SILBERT: I think he said in the last year. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 

2 In the last year? 

A We are in the process of acquiring charity status. 
I can't remember the exact legal terminology for a 501(c)(3) 
organization. Correct. 



HNWSSife 



355 



UNCLASSif'EO 



Kknt: HIR253000 W I 1 Vl-J~5li V 8 « iiSLU P*" 155 

3693 fi Did that antity racaiva any substantial funds? 

3694 MR. SILBERT: What is thi. relavanca oi that 

3695 qu«s<ion? 

3696 . BY MR. OLIVER: 

3697 2 Did that antity racaiva any substantial funds that 

3698 waza connacted in any way with Cantral America or the 

3699 democratic resistance? 

3700 . A Mo. 

370 1 2 Did you ever meet John Donahue? 

3702 A Ho. I already said that. I have answered that 

3703 question. 

370M 2 Do you know whether Hr . John Donahue knew that the 

3705 contribution that he was making to Heritage was forj 
3706 

3707 A We are talking about the John Donahue, I assume 

3708 it's the same man. 

3709 2 The #100,000 contribution. 

37 10 A That person in the Heritage Foundation, yes. I 

37 11 don't know. I didn't talk to him. I have never talked to 

37 12 him, to my knowledge. 

37 13 2 But you did raquast that the President send him a 

371U latter? 

37 15 A I asked Colonel Korth li the President could send 

37 16 him a letter, yes. 

3717 2 So you knew who ha was? 




L 






356 



NAME: 
37 18 
3719 
3720 
372 1 
3722 
3723 
3724 
372S 
3726 
3727 
3728 
3729 
3730 
3731 
3732 
3733 
3734 
3735 
3736 
3737 
3738 
3739 
37i»0 
37141 
3742 



HIR253000 



UNClftSSlFit 

Y&s . I knew who he was. 



n 



PAGE 156 



2 Did you participate in any way in the drafting or 
suggesting language for the drafting of the letter to Hr . 
Donahue ? 

A I could have. I don't recall. It wasn't major. 
HR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this as Godson Exhibit Ho. 8, and to show it to the 
witness . 

[The following document was marked as Godson 
Deposition Exhibit 8 for identification:] 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
2 Have you had an opportunity to examine the 
document? This is a memorandum on National Security Council 
stationery dated October 9, 1985, from Oliver North to 
Robert HcFarlane, subject, ''Presidential Letter to Hr . 
Donahue,*' the committee identification number is N-301482. 

Hr . Godson, in the substantive paragraph on the 
first page of that exhibit, which is requesting that the 
President sign the letter to Hr . Donahue, it says that the 
President's latter thanks Hr . Donahue for his support and 
encouragement of our policies in Central America. ''This 
letter fulfills a commitment ue made to Dr. Godson during 
our discussions last month.*' 

Do you recall that commitment being made to you? 
A No, I don't recall a commitment being made to me at 





357 



NAME ' 
37«43 
37U14 
3714S 
3746 
37147 
3748 
37M9 
3750 
37S1 
3752 
3753 
375M 
3755 
3756 
3757 
3758 
3759 
3760 
3761 
3762 
3763 
376U 
3765 
3766 
3767 



HIR253000 



'JNCLASSinED 



PAGE 157 



all. X wouldn't hav« known Hr. Donahua's nana at that 
point . 

S Didn't you tequast that this lettax ba sent? 

A Tha only tiraa I had met with Mr. KcFarlane/ and 
this is a letter iron Horth to HcFarlana requesting that ue 
make a comnitment, at tha time I met with them to discuss 
this, no comnitment was made to send any letter. 

2 But does this memorandum reflect your request to 
Colonel North that a latter be sent to Hr . Donahue? 

A I think it reflects ny request to the Colonel. 

fi Did you indicate to Colonel Korth what tha 
substance of that letter ought to ba? 

A I could have. 

Q Did you nantion to hin that ha should ba thanked 
for the ha to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B? 

A Ho, I wouldn't have phrased it — I nean I did not say 
that. 

e But it's your understanding that Hr . Donahue knew 
that a contribution was foi 




J1R. SILBERT: I think tha witness has testified 
about five tines ha has never talked to Hr . Donahue, so how 
ha could hava an understanding of what Hx . Donahue 
understood is a little beyond ny conprahension. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 




i^^ 



f!^ 



bmvL 



358 



NAnr = 

3768 
3769 
3770 
377 1 
3772 
3773 
377U 
377S 
3776 

zin 

3778 
3779 
3780 
3781 
3782 
3783 
37814 



Jid If r . Sleas* tell you that Ilx . Donahua thou 



HIR253000 

9 Dia nr . sieas* tell y 
was naklng a contribution t 



ght ha 




X Yas. 

2 Did you tall Colonel Hoith that Hz. Donahue had 
nada a contribution toj 

A At the point where I requested the letter, I said a 
Mr. Donahue has made a contribution. Can we send hin a 
letter. Mr. Slease asked if wa could send hin a letter to 
indicate that money is going to where it's supposed to go. 

2 Did you provide Colonel North with the name and 
address? 

A I assuma I did. 

MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions, Mr. 
Godson. Thank you very much for your patience. 

(Whereupon, at 3=20 p.m., the deposition was 
adjourned . ] 



Mimim 



359 



LAW OFFICES 

SCHWALB, DONNENFELD, BrAY & SiLBERT 



■ o'KamiOMAL coM^OHAtioM 



■ UWTOM A SCMWAkB 
CNAI*i.C9 M OONNKorCLO 

JOHN M BAA* 

CABl J SikBCHT 
JAMCS K STCWABT 

PMiL'P o onccN 

OAVIO J COOTIM 

ALLCN V rARBcn 



BTCVCN AAMrATTl 
LUClNDA J AACH 
AATMlCiA L MAHCn 
CAM* M rCLDMAM 
AMT O auOMiC" 

KCiTH n ANOcnsoM 

KCVtM M OfMAN 
OOuOkAS C MCACblSTCI 

OAvrD N tcllCN 

AOCLC * «IMMIL* 
JAMCS A ftABKtK. JB 

CniC M RATZ 
STCBMCN m MATTMCWS 



TCO >N O C 



September 8, 1987 



aUITC 300 CAST 
lO«S THOMAS JtFFCHSON STUttT. 
WASHINGTON. D- C, 20007 

AREA CODE 202 
Oa5-7BiO 

TCLCCOPICR 202-337-0676 

TELEX •S7007 




The Honorable Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman, House Select Committee to 

Investigate Covert Arms Transactions 

With Iran 
2187 Rayburn House Office Building 
Washington, D.C. 20515-1409 

Attention: John W. Nields, Jr., Esquire 

Chief Counsel, House Select Committee 
to Investigate Covert Arms Trans- 
actions with Iran 
H-419, The Capitol 
Washington, D.C. 20515 

Thomas Fryman, Esquire 

Counsel, House Select Committee 
to Investigate Covert Arms Trans- 
actions with Iran 

H-419, The Capitol 

Washington, D.C. 20515 

Re: Deposition of Roy Godson 

Dear Messrs. Nields and Fryman: 

The Select Committee has requested Professor Godson to 
appear for a deposition on Thursday, September 10th. As a 
continuation of his cooperation with the Committee, Professor 
Godson has agreed to appear. He previously had voluntarily 
appeared, upon request, for a lengthy interview by staff of 
the Committee. 



Mr. Fryman informed me that the deposition will cover two 
areas: fundraising for a charitable entity in Central America 



360 



The Honorable Lee H. Hamilton 
September 8, 1987 
Page 2 

and "Switzerland." The purpose of this letter is to confirm 
this representation. At Mr. Godson's interview, many 
questions were asked him that regrettably far exceeded the 
legitimate scope of the Select Committee's mandate of 
responsibility. They had nothing to do with what Chairman 
Hamilton has described as the "two policies [which] led to the 
inquiry: The arms sales to Iran, and the diversion of funds 
from those sales to the Nicaraguan contras." Washington 
Report, Congressman Lee Hamilton, August 19, 1987. 

Mr: Godson, in a spirit of cooperation, responded to all 
the irrelevant questions at his interview, questions which 
also grossly invaded his privacy. During the meeting. 
Professor Godson was assured by Committee counsel that the 
interview was confidential and disclosure by those present was 
not permitted. Despite this explicit assurance of the 
confidentiality of the interview, any questioning of Professor 
Godson at his deposition that is irrelevant to the specific 
responsibilities of the Committee is obviously unacceptable 
since this deposition becomes part of the record of the 
Committee's proceedings. See Rule 7.5, Rules of the Select 
Committee. 

With respect to questions about fundraising for a 
charitable entity in Central America the Committee is aware 
from Professor Godson's interview that to his knowledge and 
belief, this had absolutely nothing to do with diversion of 
Iran arms sales' funds to the Contras. Professor Godson is 
very concerned about any dissemination of information that 
might jeopardize the sensitive, delicate position of the 
recipient of these funds. He assumes and expects that the 
Committee's questions to him on this subject will reflect that 
it shares his concerns. 

As to Switzerland, from Professor Godsons' interview, the 
Committee is aware that to the best of Professor Godson's 
)cnowledge and belief, he was not involved in any activities 
that relate to the policies identified by the Chairman in his 
August 19, 1987 Report. He will not object to appropriately 
tailored questions that seek to have his best recollections 
placed under oath. Open-ended questions that go beyond 
whether his educational activities did relate to the policies 
as described by the Chairman and which seek details of his 
activities in Switzerland, activities having no relationship 
to these policies would, of course, be inappropriate. 



361 



The Honorable Lee H. Hamilton 
September 8, 1987 
Page 3 



I assume that the Committee agrees with the general ground 
rules and understandings set forth in this letter. If not, 
please advise me by the close of business on Wednesday, 
Septmber 9, 1987, in order to try to work out 
misunderstandings before the deposition. 



Sincerely, 



i^/JU- 



Earl J. Silbert 
EJS/ab 



362 



tCE H HAMITON MMMAHA. CHAJMMAN 

DANTE • FASCELL FLORIDA. VICE CHAIRUAN 

THOMAS S FOLEY WASHINGTON 

ftTCR W ROOIHO. JK-. NEW JERSEY 

JACK lAOOKS. TEXAS 

LOUIS STOKES OHK> 

US ASnN WISCONSIN 

EDWARD P BOLAND. UASSACHUSETTS 

ED JENKINS GEO«HHA 



JOHN W NIELDS Jfi. CHICF COUNSEL 

W NEIL EGGLISTOH, DEPUTY CHIEF COUNSEL 

CASEY MILLfR. STAFF DIRECTOR 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON, DC 20515 . 

(202) 225-7902 



/^-^ 0' 



IING ' / 

MICHIGAN ' 



OtCK ChENE* WYOMING 
WM S BROOMFIElO MICHIGAN 
HENRV J HVOE ILLINOIS 
JIM COUBTER NEW JERSEY 
BILL MtCOLlUM FLORIDA 
MICHAEL OlWINE OHIO 



THOMAS R SMEETON MINORITY STAFF DIRECTOR 

GEORGE VAN CLEVE. CHIEF MINORITY COUNSEL 
RICHARD LEON DEPUTY CHIEF MINORITY COUNSEL 



September 9, 1987 




Earl J. Silbert, Esq. 

Schwalb, Donnenfeld, Bray & Silbert 

Suite 300 East 

1025 Thomas Jefferson Street, NW 

Washington, DC 20007 

RE: Deposition of Roy Godson 

Dear Mr. Silbert: 

I have received your letter of September 8, 1987, 
concerning the deposition of Roy Godson. 

I do not agree with many of your statements about the prior 
interview of Mr. Godson or about our discussion of the scope of 
tomorrow's deposition, but I do not see any purpose to be 
served by arguing about our differences. For your information, 
the scope of the deposition will be defined by the subject 
matters of the investigation set forth in House Resolution 12 
establishing the House Select Committee. A copy of that 
resolution is enclosed for your convenience. 

The deposition tomorrow will begin at 9 a.m. in Room B-336 
of the Rayburn House Office Building. The deposition and 
transcript will be classified "TOP SECRET." 



Very truly yours. 



Thomas Fryman 
Staff Counsel 



''l<^Vr-.>«o^ 



Enclosure 



cc: Hon. Lee H. Hamilton 

John W. Nields, Jr., Esq. 



363 



Washington 
Report 




CONGRESSMAN 
LEE HAMILTON 



&th DISTRICT. INDIANA 



vex.. XXII NO. 

TOE iram/cxkhra hearings 

The end of the public hearings ph«ie of the 
Iran/contra invcit igation is an eppropriste tine 
CO respond to tome of the aost frequently asked 
questions about the hearings. 

WHY vmE THE HEARINGS HELD? The hearings 
were held because in the course of the conduct of 
the goverranent's business sooething went seriously 
wrong. T\K> policies led to the inquiry: The anas 
sales to Iran, and the diversion of funds from 
those sales to the Nicsraguan contras. The first 
began with a docment the President forgot, and 
the second began wi t hout hi s knowl edge . The 
President's decision to sell arms secretly to Iran 
contradicted the long-held » widely supported 
public policy of the l^ited States to make no 
concessions to terrorists, to remain neutral in 
the Persian Gulf War, and to stop the flow of arms 
to Iran. By selling arms to a nation officially 
designated by our govemnent as a terrorist state, 
■tajor damage was done to U.S. credibility, and 
President Reagan was catapulted into the most 
serious policy crisis of his presidency. 

WHAT WAS THE COfTRAL ISSUE OF THE HEARINGS? 
The central question before the House and Senate 
select coanittees has been: Can our 
constitutional system of shared powers between the 
Congress and the President be made to work in the 
fomulation and inplestentation of foreign policy 
in a dangerous world? 

WHY DID THE OCHMITTEES MOLD PUBUC HEARINGS? 
The coomittees were created to serve as fact- 
finding panels and to investigate process 
failures. The Congress gets information 
principally through holding hearings. Although 
the conmittees obtained large amounts of evidence 
through staff work and private depositions, open 
hearings were held to contribute to the public 
understanding of these events and the workings of 
our systca of govermenc. Extremely copies facts 
had to be analyzed and testimony drawn out of 
witnesses who often were urKooperative. Because 
the task of the coanittees was to inform rather 
than prosecute, strict courtroom rules of evidence 
did not apply, witnesses could be forced to 
testify if granted United iomunity, and witnesses 
could consult lawyers before answering questions. 

WHAT WERE T>1£ HAJOR CX)NCLUSIQN$ OF THE 
HEARINGS? The coamittees found no "smoking gim" 
evidence that President Reagan was involved in 
wrongdoing such as engaging in a cover— up or 
approving the diversion of ams sales money to the 
contras. They did show that he allowed his aides 
to carry out secret policies with little 
supervision. The hearings revealeo several 
probloM with the particular means chosen by the 
i^ainistration to try to achieve its worthy goals 
of freeing the hostages and seeking democracy in 
Nicaragua: First. there was too little 
accountability for decisions and actiona taken in 
the nane of elected officials. A MBall nunber of 
officials made policy outside the democratic 
process. Second, there was too such secrecy and 
deception in govemsoent. Crucial information was 
withheld from the Congress, from ia^rtant allies, 
and from the Aoierican people. The Secretaries of 
Defense and State, and even the President were 
not informed of major foreign policy initiatives, 
ai^ were supplied misleading information. Third, 



33 AUGUST 19, 1987 

I quEsnoNs and answers 

too often intelligence estimates were used as a 
tool to make policy look good, rather than as a 
tool for making good policy. Fourth, there was 
too much reliance on private citizens and foreign 
govemnents to carry out American policy. Fifth, 
covert actions should always be used to 
supplement, not to contradict, our foreign policy. 
They should not be used to impose a foreign policy 
that the American people do not support. Finally, 
the Constitution gives important foreign policy- 
making powers to both the President anl the 
Congress. Our foreign policy cannot succeed 
unless they work together and trust one another. 

WHAT DID THE HEARINGS ACOOMPUSH? I view the 
hearings as an essential part of the self- 
cleansing process of our system of government. 
Because of the hearings, we can see more clearly 
what needs to be done to make our system work 
better. I am encouraged by the President's steps 
so far, including changing White House personnel, 
prohibiting National Security Council manbers from 
undertaking covert actions, and prorniaing to 
report covert actions to Congress promptly. Also 
encouraging is the cooperation shown between the 
President and the Congress in the recent Central 
American peace effort. The hearings should have a 
lasting impact on the decision-making process, 
acting as a deterrent to short-cutting the system. 
My guess is that it will be a long time before a 
national security advisor makes a major foreign 
policy decision without informing :he President, 
as Admiral Poindexter did. 

WHAT KEY QUESTIONS ROiAIN? /toong the 
unresolved questions are: Does the $13 million in 
proceeds from the arms sales belong to the U.S. 
govemnent or private businessmen? Was there a 
cover-up in Noveokber 1986 when these events began 
unraveling? What was the extent of third country 
involvement? What did the President really know? 
Why did he agree to sell arms to Iran? What 
created the climate in the White House that led 
aides to believe secrecy and short-cuts were 
permitted? What role did CIA director Casey play? 
The conaittees will not attempt to resolve all the 
contradictions in the testimony. The independent 
counsel appointed by President Reagan is deciding 
whether criminal actions should be brought against 
any of the participants. The CIA is investigating 
whether any of its OBployecs violated the law. 

WIU. THE CDftlintES RECOfffiND LECISUnON? 
Overall, my stinsc is that the solution to the 
problems re-.<ealed in the hearings lies less in new 
structures or new laws than in proper attitudes. 
Although sane reconnendations will be made, the 
connittees did not design their work to develop 
legislation. Fundamentally, what we have to do is 
to return to the constitutional and traditional 
ways of making decisions. 

HOW MUCH DID THE HEARINGS COST? Although 
various efforts were taken to minimize costs, such 
as holding joint House-Senate hearings and 
borrowing connittee and agency staff, the cost of 
the congressional investigation will be sane $4 
million, including substantial costs for security. 
The cooaittees have heard 250 hours of public 
testiaony, and have examined well over 200,000 
dociflsents. The coamittees will complete their 
report by October, and then go out of existence. 



364 



Ll-O 

















-I - - - - 



365 




ii uci I icmuiidi Youiii Year e^oiinnissior 



IS33 K Si. NW. Suite 03O • WiSShlnglOn. DC 3CXX>S • (303)683 0040 • Ifclex 440636 U5YC Ul 

Floyd O Brown 
JT y V C Direcioc 




July 24, 1984 



The Honorable Michael Araacost 
Uoder Secretary for Political Affairs 
United States Departaent of Stat* 
22nd & C Street 
WashlivgtOD. D.C. 20520 

Dear Mr. Under Secretary: 

A* the Chalman of the Governing Board of Trustees of Che United States International 
Youth Year Cosmlsslon, I an writing to express my personal concern over the pending 
developoents involving the International Youth Conference scheduled for Kingston, 
Jamaica In April of 1985. This conference, primarily supported by the United States 
goverment, has taken on the appearance of becoming yet another forum for antl-denocractic 
leftist operating uttder the guise of balanced representation. Accordingly, I have 
called an esergency meeting of the Governing Board of Trustees of the United States 
International Youth Year Commission fcr Tuesday, August 7, 1984, to revlev what role. 
If any, the youth of the United States will take at this conference. 

I hold grave reservations over the direction and scope of the youth conference. At 
this time, there appears to be a systematic attempt to exclude from the structural 
management of this conference the youth members of the major ruling Parties in the 
Western dmocracies. Your office, Mr- Under Secretary, specifically excluded youth 
leaders with ties to the Reagan Admlnlstrstlon from the list of potential members of 
the Secretariat for the conference that was sent to the Jamaican govermect. Names 
of youth leaders from the goverments of Margaret Th»tcher and Helmut Kohl have been 
ignored, the youth leaders from the goverrmients of Chiang Chlng-kuo and Chun Doo Hwan 
have been specifically excluded. But most importantly, it is your office and the 
National Strategy Information Center, under the direction of Dr. Roy Godson, that is 
making all of the major decisions on behalf of the international democratic youth. 

Mr. Under Secretary, this is completely unacceptable. Dr. Roy Godson does not report 
to the United States International Youth Year Commission, yet he recommends to the Jamaican 
govermenc the youth to serve on their Secretariat. He holds a dinner meeting in 
Washington, D.C. for the Chairman of the Jamaican conference, yet falls to inform, much 
less invite, representatives of the International Youth Year Commission who support the 
Keagan Administration. Mr. Under Secretary, this is not fairness nor is it balance for the 
development of an international youth conference on democracy. 

The United States International Youth Year Commission, Inc. is the official body recognlred 
by President Reagan and the United States government for the purpose of representing and 
coordinating all U.S. lYY activities. We currently maintain a maibershlp of 173 national 
and regional youth and youth serving organizations representing over 50 million young people. 



DESIGNATED BY THE US COVEBSMENT AS 
THE OFRCIAL NON GOVERNMENTAL COORDINATING ORGANEATION FOR INTERNATIONAL VOLTH YEAR 



366 



July 2«. 1984 

Umier Secretary Araacost 

page 2 



We vork hard to reach balance and accoodatlon in all of our activities. The utter lack 
of balance betveet. stated goals and the resulting action In the development of the Jamaican 
Secretariat Is completely contrary to the lofty ideals ve have established, and met. for 
ourselves. 

The Jamaican Secretariat is proposed to consist of 18 menbers, nine Jamaicans and nine 
youth from the democratic regions around the world. The United States International 
Youth Year Commission Is not allowed to choose its own represeiuative to that board. 
Dr. Roy Godson has made that decision. Similar non-desiocratic pratices have excluded 
conservative European, Central American, African, Australian, and Asian youth from 
serving on that Secretariat. 

I cannot allow my organization to serve as a tool of this goverment, or Dr. Godson. 
The current action Is nothing but meddling in our Internal affairs. The monbershlp 
of the United States International Youth Year Commission will not places its credibility 
in the hands of those who choose not to inform us of their actions. We will participate 
as full partners in any process, but not as puppets. 

If the Jamaican conference is to be a propaganda tool for those who do not represent 
the prevailing philosophies of the majority of the democratically elected governments 
In this world, then perhaps little reason exists for U.S. participation or financial 
support. 

Mr. Under Secretary, I wish to be clear: there is no desire to overturn the 
proposed neabers of the Secretariat, nor do I wish to "run" the conference. However, 
If I am to recommend to my membership further participation. If we are to "support" this 
conference In every sense of the word, then changes must be made. Balance between the 
Left and the Right is a must, but more importantly, this must be a conference of youth, 
by youth and for youth if it is to suceed. The officers and agents of government are 
welcome for their advice, but not to select (or be) our leaders. 

If you desire additional information, please be assured that I am available at your 
convlence. I look forward to your reply. 

I am, most respectfully yours, 

J / 

^aniel ^ohen' '— 

Chair d^n 
Governing Board of Trustees 

V 

cc: The Honorable Jeane Kirkpatrlck, Gregory J. Newell, Robert McFarland, Faith 
Whittlesey, Governing Board of Trustees. 

DLC : kh 

sec ; Vsr^ &&th-c-^ -(-rtfw, T-^^Tf^ \drLG^^^-v\ 



367 




369 






'■' .-^ .-.»->/• .■,- - 



- •.'••<l:.*i-."...-*:»fli 







370 



MEMORANDUM 






NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 



INFORMATION 



^ DEPOSITION 
I EXHIBIT 

I 7 



August 29, 1983 



6023 

i^ 3 3 440 



MEMORANDUM FOR JOHN M. POINDEXTER 

FROM: WALTER RAYMOND, JR. ^- '' ' 

SUBJECT: Central American Outreach 




As you are aware, I continue to get a number of proposals 
dealing with how we can generate a private sector program to 
support the President on Central America. A refinement of an 
earlier proposal from Roger Chapin is attached at Tab II. 
Chapin had earlier communicated with the Judge. I have sent 
this to Tony Motley. 

Bill Casey called on August 26 and would like to follow up on 
his idea to have a meeting with five or six key public re- 
lations specialists. This is referred to in my earlier 
memorandum. I put him off until after Labor Day. 

I think you are right about deflecting this to State. I 
believe that it is, however, going to be quite time consuming, 
even recognizing that the work done within the Administration 
has to, by definition, be at arms length. The more I reflect 
on Gil Robinson's probable move into State as Shultz's public 
diplomacy coordinator, the more I think he could be the glue 
to put this sort of public-private relationship together. He 
has done this sort of thing before. He has public relations 
experience, knows how to operate behind the scenes, has the 
political connections, and lastly, will be in the right place: 
The Department of State. I do not think it is overlapping 
with Motley or Reich. They will be plenty busy doing their 
regular jobs and will benefit from what Gil could do. You 
might want to touch on this with the Judge. When I 
philosophized a bit with Bill Casey (in an effort to get him 
out of the loop) , he was negative about turning the ball over 
to State, but very positive about someone like Gil Robinson 
working on the problem from within State. 



Attachments 



Tab 



I 

II 



r''..'::;'!^ on 
under pr-v'siors : 
Ey B. Ro^Ef. l.-*.icn:i 



My memo, same sub j , Aug 9| 
Chapin mgmos, Aug 22 & 19, 



83 
83 



621V 









< 



V 



371 

U 33441 



lii r . >^ riLU 



ii:9 

MEMORAMDUM 



INFOR.V.ATION NATIONAL SECURITY C^<^U5:Cipgg3 
MEMORANDUM FOR WILLIAM P. CLARK 
FROM: WALTER RAYMOND, JR. 

SUBJECT: Private Sector Support for 
Central American Program 

Several Administration supporters have identified steps which 
they believe are important to generating public opinion 
support for our policies in Central America. The various 
proposals call for the creation of a bipartisan coalition of 
concerned citizens to generate majority support for the 
President's policies. This requires detailed informational 
programs which highlight developments and realities in the 
region. It also requires programs which are designed to go 
beyond simply reaching the committed. We must move out into 
the middle sector of the American public and draw them into 
the "support" column. A second package of proposals deal with 
means to market the issue, largely considering steps utilizing 
public relations specialists--or similar professionals--to 
help transmit the message. 

A quick review of proposals which are known to me include: 

-- A group of public relations specialists met with Bill 
Casey a few days ago. Faith also met them. The group includ- 
ed Bill Greener, the public affairs head at Philip Morris and 
two or three others. They "stated" what needed to be done to 
generate a nation-wide campaign. Several elements were 
identified. The first, a fund-raising effort under the 
direction of someone like Walter Wriston. Secondly, an 
effective communications system inside the Government. The 
overall purpose would be to sell a "new product" — Central 
America — by generating interest across-the-spectrum. 

-- A group including Charlie Wick, Faith, myself, Alan 
Bell (Public Relations) and Tom Korologos (Lobbyist) met to 
discus*, how to get th« story out into the countryside. In 
addition, to traditional speaking tours by USG officials, 
Presidential statements, etc, the Korologos-Bell proposals 
focussed on the hiring of a public relations firm. They 
recommended Ron Nessen. Nessen has subsequently presented a 
proposal. 

— Faith subsequently advised Charlie Wick that she has 
the prospect of funding from th« Mellon-Scaife organization 
(Terry Slease) . Slease wants Tom Cantrell, currently number 
two in congressional relations in the Department of Energy, to 
run the program. This would rule Nessen out. Slease also 
speaks of a $1000 per plate fund raiser to get the activity 



iir^ 



^f;l^^0C3_nn' 



Ui 



372 






going. It is not clear whether Cantrell's role isfis J3440 
tund-raiser or as a political activist. Nor is it clear '^ 
whether the goal is an "American Coalition" or simply a 
pressure group. It sounds like an expanded "Outreach Group." 

Roy Codson^anri I have discussed this and we are 
concerned that efforts undertaken by Faith's office tend to be 
confined to preaching to the converted. We recommended 
funding via Freedom house or some other structure that has 
credibility in the political center. Wick, via Murdoch, may 
be able to draw down added funds for this effort. Ron Nessen, 
or the Wagner-Baroody firm recommended by Cliff White, could 
be hired by Freedom House. 

Dan James. He has the support of Jeane Kirkpatrick, 
Leo Cherne, Al Burkholder and others. He has submitted a 
paper which spells out the parameters of the problem. He also 
wants to include Latin Americans in the activity. His 
proposal calls for the creation of a bipartisan Americas 
Coalition. He believes he can get funding from Ross Perot, 
Clem Stone and others. Evidently Anne Armstrong will make 
calls for him. James would like to have a fund raising dinner 
in which Jeane Kirkpartrick has reportedly agreed to be a key 
note speaker. James is a good publicist but not a 
particularly good organizer. His role would be in support of 
a larger effort. 

Roger Chapin. He has a similar proposal for a group 
called Stand Tall America which would generate public 
knowledge and understanding of the Central American program. 
Chapin is untested on foreign policy issues although he has a 
*-J^*ck record of generating public support for causes. He 
believes the first issue is clarifying the message, examining 
marketing techniques and then generating a broad popular 
support base. He %#ould play a support role. Chapin adds that 
he thinks the only way to mobilize the American people is to 
make it clear that the Central American issue is a threat 
because of the Russian involvement. 

Les Lenkovsky (Smith-Richardson Foundation) believes 
that we need to create the equivalent of a "Coalition for the 
Present Danger" to generate public support. Tom Korologos, in 
a privat* conversation, said what one needed to do was to 
identify • competent activist who would take on the organiza- 
tional job — this includes principally fund raising , public 
relet ions /packaging , substantive input" ! He said someone like 
a Bill Greener or a Tom Cantrell might serve. Ultimately, we 
would want to flesh out the committee to make it suitably 
non-partisan. Several of the names we considered for the 
Central American Caeunission would be very constructive 
participants. 

The above discussion identifies several issues. I think there 
is consensus that we should strive for the creation of a 




.9 -~ 



'^m 



373 



Un:.Ln^;iir;tU ' 23445 

genuinely bipartisan, centrist structure to generate public 
support around the issue of Central America. If we agree that 
we will set up a comr'.ittee and select an activist to put the 
thing together most other issues fall in line: fund raising, 
marketing, substantive input. Many of the people above could 
play a role within the structure. A central office in the USG 
should be identified on the principal point with this outside 
, independent group. This could be the NSC, the White House 
(Whittlesey) or Otto Reich as Central American public 
diplomacy coordinator. While it is possible for Faith to be 
the point of contact, her mandate makes it difficult for her 
to deal with the media and the Congress, two of the principal 
audiences for this effort. This might argue for keeping the 
contact within the public diplomacy context where substantive 
support could be supplied, as requested. 

We need an organizer. I would like to lead with our silver 
bullet. I recommend that Peter Dailey be asked to put the 
group together (spend one month) and turn it over to an 
outside coordinator, such as Bill Greener (or Cantrell) . 



Coordination: Bob Sims 



i^»^i..;^.^jiiEO 



17 



375 



mmm 



HSfrS^-O^,-— /87 

1 



1 DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM T. GOLDEN 

2 Wednesday, May 6, 1987 

3 United States Senate 

4 Select Committee on Secret 

5 Military Assistance to Iran 

6 and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

7 Washington, D. C. 

8 Deposition of WILLIAM T. GOLDEN, called as a 

9 witness by counsel for the Select Committee, at the 

10 offices of the Select Committee, Room SH-901, Hart Senate 

11 Office Building, Washington, D. C. , commencing at 11:14 

12 a.m., the witness having been duly sworn by MICHAL ANN 

13 SCHAFER, a Notary Public in and for the District of 

14 Columbia, and the testimony being taken down by Stenomask 

15 by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER and transcribed under her 

16 direction. 



(m^ 



Partiany Oeclassified/Reteased on M' ^ - 
under provisions of LO. li»o 
by N. Menan, National Security Cound 



UHCLISSIEe 



COPY Mn I r\ nr ^ rOP'ES 



376 



uHekftSSie 



1 APPEARANCES : 

2 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret 

3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 

4 Opposition: 

5 JOHN SAXON, ESQ. 

6 < Associate Counsel 

7 CLARENCE H. ALBRIGHT, JR., ESQ. 

8 Associate Counsel 

9 On behalf of the House Select Committee to 

10 Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran: 

11 JOSEPH P. SABA, ESQ. 

12 On behalf of the Department of the Army: 

13 ROBERT WINCHESTER, ESQ. 

14 Special Assistant to the Secretary of the Army 

15 for Legislative Affairs 

16 COLONEL JOHN WALLACE 



Wk 





377 



BHtU^B 



1 






C N T 


E N T S 








2 








EXAMINATION 


ON 


BEHALF OF 


3 


WITNESS 






SENATE 






HOUSE 


4 


William T. Golden 










5 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


4 








6 


By 


Mr. 


Albright 


28 








7 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


29 








8 


By 


Mr. 


Albright 


39 








9 


By 


Mr. 


Saba 








59 


10 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


60 








11 


By 


Mr. 


Albright 


62 








12 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


62 








13 


By 


Mr. 


Albright 


62 








14 


By 


Mr. 


Saba 








63 


15 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


64 








16 


By 


Mr. 


Saba 








65 


17 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


66 








18 


By 


Mr. 


Saba 








66 


19 


By 


Mr. 


Saxon 


66 








20 






E X H I 


BITS 








21 


GOLDEN EXHIBIT NUMBER 


FOR 


IDENTIFICATION 


22 




1 








60 





umi&siiD 



378 



Af\ 






1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 WILLIAM T. GOLDEN, 

4 called as a witness by counsel on behalf of the Senate 

5 Select Committee and having been duly sworn by the Notary 

6 Public, was examined and testified as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. SAXON: 

9 Q Mr. Golden, state your full name for us, 

10 please, sir? 

11 A William Thomas Golden. 

12 Q And what is your address? 

13 A 

14 Q You are a retired Army warrant officer; is 

15 that correct? 

16 A Yes, that's correct. 

17 Q What do you do now? 

18 A I am a civilian employee of the Department of 

19 the Army at Ft. Huachuca, Arizona. 

20 Q Tell us, if you would, about what we have come 

21 to taiow as YELLOW FRUIT. If you would, start just with 

22 the beginning of your involvement and then, if necessary, 

23 back up with the history of YELLOW FRUIT. 

24 A Okay. In July of 1983 I was serving In the 

25 American Embassay in Managua, Nicaragua, as the Assistant 




OlWCSSSlflfl) 



379 



UKI^mifliD 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



Army Attache. I was assigned from there to a project 
called YELLOW FRUIT under the cover of Business Security 
International in Annandale, Virginia. 

YELLOW FRUIT was an organization that was set 
up to provide operational securityJ 




mssm 



380 






1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



m 





Q And what was your position to be? Were you 
hired to work for BSI? 




Q If you would, tell us what you know to be the 
origin and genesis of YELLOW FRUIT prior to your 
involvement. 

A As I understand it, YELLOW FRUIT was created 
by the Department of the Army, like I say, to support 
these clandestine operations. 




381 



UNCUSSIHED 



VCcypi, 7 






UNCLASSIFIEO 



382 



1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

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21 

22 

23 

24 

25 




Q You had some Involvement, though, I believe, 
with something called SEA SPRAY? 




i 



I 



383 



^JjtWill 



3 Q Tall us about Colonal Dale Duncan. 

4 A Colonel Dale Duncan was the project manager of 

5 YELLOW FRUIT. I believe he is the person who prepared 

6 the position paper that created YELLOW FRUIT. He was an 

7 Army intelligence major at the time. I think he was 

8 promoted to Lieutenant Colonel in August of 1983. 

9 Colonel Duncan was project manager, like I say, of YELLOW 

10 FRUIT when I came on board in the organization. 

11 Colonel Duncan ran Business Security 

12 International. It has just been established in 

13 Annandale, Virginia. I worked directly for Colonel 

14 Duncan. When I arrived in August of 1983, one of the 

15 first jobs that I was given was to establish 

16 accountability for covert funds that had been advanced to 

17 individuals and had been expended by the organization 

18 during the time it was created. 

19 During my audit of those funds I discovered 

20 what I believed to be irregularities in financial 

21 management. I discovered that there was some large-scale 

22 fraud on the part of Colonel Duncan and possibly other 

23 members of the organization. 

24 Q We'll come back in a moment to the particulars 

25 of what you discovered and how that played out. Let me 



KRSSIFtED 



384 




D 



10 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

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12 

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14 

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18 

19 

20 

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ask you to give us a brief description along similar 
lines of Lieutenant Colonel Frederick Bayard. 




385 




/^^ //^'^ 






^^ 



St?-? 10 0-88-14 



387 



1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

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12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

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25 




THE WITKESS: Initially the money was in the 
form of what we call, I believe, a MIPR. It's just a 
piece of paper that has a series of numbers. It's called 
a fund citation in the Army. 

BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 
Q MIPR is an acronym for — 

A I honestly don't know what the acronym means. 
It's like a check, basically, in the Army. 

COLONEL WALLACE: It's a Military 
Interdepartmental Purchase Request. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. It's a strange name, I 





388 



liCUSMD 



14 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

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23 

24 

25 



know, but It's just a piece of paper and It Is recognized 
in all the military departments. In other words, if you 
are doing a project, you are a project manager and they 
send you money to do your project, that's the form it 
comes in in the white world, in the real Army. 




389 



yNCUSS!FI[B 



u^A/ 'S ^ '^ 






m%\ 





390 



1 

2 

3 

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5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

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18 

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Q Let's get Into that now, then. Give us the 
exact sequence of how the Investigation got started. You 
say it was triggered by the annual audit that was to be 
done of BSZ? 

A It wasn't really triggered by that. That was 
a part of it. The noming of the audit Colonel Duncan 
had never turned in any vouchers to me. Everyone else in 
the organization had. He didn't want to turn then in to 
me for some reason. I couldn't figure out why. On the 
morning of the audit he did present me with some 
receipts. 

Q This would have been when? 



U«CDtSStFI!D 



391 




21 

1 A This was on — I believe it was sometime in 

2 August. 

3 Q Of 1983? 

4 A No. It was on the first of September, I 

5 believe, somewhere around that time frame. 

6 The receipts that he turned in to me did not 

7 appear to be authentic, and so once the audit failed 

8 Colonel Duncan, Mr. Patterson and their wives went to 

9 Europe on what they told me was a vacation. And after 

10 they had departed I had paid an American Express bill 

11 that was set up for government use for $9,600 in plane 

12 tickets, which the receipts had been taken out of the 

13 envelope and I had no idea what the bill was I was 

14 paying. 

15 So I got in touch with American Express and 

16 found out where the money had gone to, and it was a 

17 travel agency over in Maryland, and I started tracking 

18 down the receipts for that expenditure because I needed 

19 that for the audit. 

2 And what I found was that Colonel Duncan had 

21 paid for he, his wife, Mr. Patterson and Mr. Patterson's 

22 wife's vacation to Europe out of U. S. Government funds. 
2 3 So then I started looking at the receipts that Colonel 

24 Duncan had turned in to me, and started calling the 

25 companies these receipts were from. One of them was for 



UNfilMfe 



392 



IINMW 



22 



1 $33,000, the other was for $56,000 for supposedly 

2 purchases of equipment. 

3 And what I found is the receipts were bogus. 

4 They were fabricated receipts basically. So at that 

5 point I prepared a memorandum for Colonel Bayard, who was 

6 'in charge during Colonel Duncan's absence, stating what I 

7 had found and what I believed to be gross financial 

8 misconduct on the part of Colonel Duncan, turned it over 

9 to Colonel Bayard, who went to Colonel Longhofer, and 

10 Colonel Longhofer asked me if I would do an investigation 

11 of Colonel Duncan since I was most familiar with the 

12 funds at that time. 

13 I said I would only do that if he would be 

14 willing to provide a letter appointing me as an 

15 investigating officer because I worked for Colonel 

16 Duncan. He was my senior officer, and if I'm going to go 

17 an investigation of him as an investigator I wanted it in 

18 writing. 

19 So Longhofer agreed to do that. He gave me 

20 the letter appointing me as an investigator. I did what 

21 I could do between that time and the time Colonel Duncan 

22 was to return from Europe, which was September 17, and I 

23 provided Colonel Longhofer with a preliminary report of 

24 investigation stating what my findings were and what 

25 should be properly investigated by the CID Command. 



llimSSIHED 



393 



DHCUSme 



23 



1 What eventually happened is that when Colonel 

2 Duncan came back off his vacation in Europe he was not 

3 placed under administrative leave or anything. He was 

4 given full access to the BSI offices just as if nothing 

5 had happened. He had access to all the evidentiary 

6 material that I had stored there, and then I believe on 

7 the 21st or 22nd of September Colonel Longhofer called a 

8 meeting at CIA headquarters with Colonel Duncan, himself, 

9 Bayard, Patterson and myself where he confronted Duncan 

10 with the allegations that I had made and stated that 

11 there was going to be an investigation. 

12 He was going to appoint Pisen to do the 

13 investigation, and he was going to appoint Mr. Patterson 

14 to do an investigative audit of the office, which I 

15 objected to because I said Patterson's involved in this 

16 because he's gone to Europe at government expense and 

17 he's part of the investigation. But Patterson said well, 

18 I'll pay the money back and that seemed to satisfy 

19 Longhofer that that was okay. 

20 So Patterson did his thing at the office there 

21 and turned it over to Colonel Longhofer. Then I got a 

22 call from Colonel Longhofer saying go home, don't ever 

23 come back to the offices again; we'll call you, don't 

24 call us type thing. 

25 So myself and Mr. Belcher were fired, sent 



ifflfflrano 



394 



DNGkftSHD 



24 



1 home, told to do nothing basically. 

2 MR. SABA: Excuse me if I interrupt. So it's 

3 clear, when you say you were fired, do you mean that you 

4 were told not to go to the BSI offices? 

5 THE WITNESS: I was told to go home and do 

6 ' absolutely nothing, that I would be called at the right 

7 time. So I sat home until my birthday, which was the 

8 14th of October. I remember it very clearly. I got a 

9 call from Darlene Rush. She said Colonel Duncan is back; 

10 he's in command. He's been placed back in command and 

11 you are to show up on Monday morning with your keys to 

12 the office, any credit cards you might have — that type 

13 of thing. 

14 So there was a meeting at 1:00 on Monday, the 

15 17th of October. Well, we all showed up and Colonel 

16 Duncan stood up and said I have been vindicated of all 

17 the allegations made against me and I am now back in 

18 command and certain people are going to be fired 

19 immediately and the operation is going to be phased out 

20 bacausa of all the exposure the unit has had. 

21 And I was the first on his list. And I went 

22 in and he said you've got until the first of November to 

23 find a job someplace; otherwise I will report you excess 

24 to the military personnel center and you will just get an 

25 assignment, whatever shakes out. And the same thing with 



rnmrn 



395 



ilNtkASSlFiED 



25 



1 Mr. Belcher. He was a contract employee and they 

2 terminated him right on the spot. 

3 And so I went home and made contact with the 

4 FBI and initially they thought I was a nut and they put 

5 me in their crank file at the FBI because they had never 

6 heard of anything like this before. And I eventually had 

7 to get hold of an old friend of mine in the FBI in 

8 Albuquerque who knew me very well to vouch for me before 

9 they would even talk to me. 

10 So I laid all of this out. I kept copies of ' 

11 most of this stuff and I laid it out for the FBI, which 

12 they thought was absolutely incredible. I talked to Ted 

13 Greenberg, who was the Assistant U.S. Attorney. 

14 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

15 Q Is that in the Eastern District of Virginia? 

16 A Yes. And then I made contact with Major Ed 

17 Frothingham, who was the Staff Judge Advocate at INSCOM, 

18 and laid all of this on him. And so what eventually 

19 happened is that myself and Mr. Belcher and some of the 

20 othar people who knew the misconduct that had taken place 

21 and that there had been a coverup, they came forth to 

22 INSCOM and provided sworn statements on what they knew. 

23 Q That would be you, Belcher, Risen and Kane? 

24 A I believe so, yes. And eventually there was 

25 what I believe they call a 15-6 investigation by General 



ymssiftED 



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\lH(lt^s^^ 



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1 Peters, who was an Army General, and then he recommended 

2 that there be a further investigation, I believe. I 

3 don't recall exactly the terminology that it was, but all 

4 the people that were accused of wrongdoing that had been 

5 substantiated, they were placed on administrative leave 

6 ' and an investigation ensued after that. 

7 Q And to your knowledge what ultimately happened 

8 to these individuals? 

9 A What ultimately happened was that Colonel 

10 Duncan was indicted by a Federal grand jury on some of 

11 the charges. Ted Greenberg didn't want to try Colonel 

12 Duncan on everything because there was a lot of 

13 classified information going to be involved in the trial, 

14 so he indicted him on some other charges. 

15 Q Dealing with financial irregularity? 

16 A Yes. It was fraud. And then once that 

17 happened Colonel Duncan turned around and sued myself, 

18 Belcher and Pisen for just a variety of things. He 

19 claimed that w« had bugged his house, we had illegally 

20 surveilled him, we had done just a number of things. And 

21 that went on for quite some time. 

22 In the meantime Colonel Duncan went to trial, 

23 was convicted in Federal Court, got three years in prison 

24 for his crimes. But the law suit kept going. He had 

25 sued the Army as well. On the day of trial he dropped 



IIHCHSSMB 



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wwmm 



27 



1 all of his claims against the individuals — myself, 

2 Belcher and Pisen — but maintained his suit against the 

3 Army. 

4 And the way that it turned out, the defense, 

5 our defense, never got presented because at the end of 

6 their presentation the judge said there wasn't enough 

7 evidence for the defense to even put on anything, so he 

8 just threw the whole thing out. So that's what happened 

9 there. 

10 Then eventually Colonel Longhofer went to 

11 trial and was convicted of obstruction of justice and a 

12 variety of other crimes and was sentenced initially to 

13 two years at hard labor at Ft. Leavenworth, fined 

14 $24,000, and a letter of reprimand, what have you. 

15 Q Did anything happen to Mr. Patterson? 

16 A Nothing happened to Patterson at all. 

17 Eventually Colonel Bayard was court-martialed for 

18 financial misconduct. He was convicted. I believe he 

19 was given 18 months in prison and a substantial fine. I 

20 think it was $50, 000-something. And then eventually 

21 three years later Colonel Duncan was court-martialed on, 

22 Z think it was, 24 felonies. He was convicted of 2 3 and 

23 he was sentenced to ten years at hard labor, fined over 

24 $500,000, and given the equivalent of a dishonorable 

25 discharge. For an officer that's called a dismissal from 



inrasm 



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111 

28 



uim^SifiD 



1 the service. 

2 Of course, he's appealed all of these things, 

3 with some success, on the criminal side, as I understand, 

4 in Federal court. 

5 MR. SAXON: Let's go off the record a minute. 

6 ' (A discussion was held off the record.) 

7 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: 

8 Q Did Colonel Longhofer do any traveling while 

9 Duncan and Patterson were in Europe when you were 

10 conducting your initial investigation? 

11 A Yes, he did. I think it was two days before 

12 Colonel Duncan and Patterson were scheduled to come back 

13 to the U.S. I found out that Colonel Longhofer got on an 

14 airplane and flew and met them in Berlin that night and 

15 turned around and flew back to Washington the next 

16 morning. 

17 Q That would have been approximately 16 

18 November; is that correct? 

19 A He left on — I believe he left on the evening 

20 of the 15th of September, flew to Berlin, met Patterson 

21 and Dxincan, and came back on a different airplane the 

22 same day that Duncan and Patterson came back. He got 

23 back about two hours before Duncan and Patterson. 

24 Q Do you know why he made that trip? 

25 A I don't know for sure why he made that trip. 



IWEHSSBID 



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but I know that Colonel Duncan and Patterson smelled a 
rat when they came bade. They knew that something was 
up. So I suspect he flew over and told them what was 
going on. 

Q But you have no independent evidence of that? 

A No. 

Q Just so the record is clear, the terms 

ind SEA SPRAY are classified terms; is that 
correct? 

A The term SEA SPRAY is no longer classified. 




MR. SAXON: Off the record. 
(A discussion was held off the record.) 
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 
Q Mr. Golden, it is my understanding that the 
words SEA SPRAY and ISA by themselves are not classified, 
but when given some description of what those operations 
and activities involve there is a classification and 
sensitivity level; is that correct? 

A Yes. It's Top Secret-SI — TS/SI ~ when the 
description is given. 

Q I believe you had provided a statement to Army 
CID that talks about a particular concept paper you 
recall having read at the time that you were employed by 
BSI and a part of the YELLX3W FRUIT operation; is that 

^)\ vv 




400 



\immm 



30 



1 correct? 

2 A Yes, that's correct. 

3 Q What triggered having your recollection 

4 refreshed on that issue? 

5 A Hell, I had mentioned this before back in 

6 '1983, I believe, when I was talking with investigators 

7 then and with the U.S. Attorney. And basically what 

8 happened is I was called by a reporter from CBS News 

9 about a Swiss bank account. 

10 Q Roughly when was this? 

11 A Sometime around the first part of April. 

12 Q Of this year? 

13 A Yes. In fact, I received two calls in 

14 December of 1986. I received a call from a reporter from 

15 CBS News who asked me about YELLOW FRUIT and he wanted to 

16 know if there were any foreign bank accounts associated 

17 with YELLOW FRUIT, and I referred him to the Public 

18 Affairs Officer of the Army and I didn't answer any of 

19 his questions. 

20 Q Was that individual Mr. Stringer? 

21 A I don't believe I remember what his name was. 

22 I really don't remember who the guy was. 

23 Q I'm sorry — Mr. Rosenberg? 

24 A It coul<' have been and probably was. I just 

25 don't recall. 



UNebtSMD 



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And then in April I got a call from Mr. 
Rosenberg of CBS News, and he told me that he had 
independent confirmation through a European source that 
there was a Swiss bank account that had General Secord, 
Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Mr. Patterson and myself 
as signators to the account, and again I referred him to 
the Army Public Affairs Officer. 

And at the same time I called Major 
Frothingham, who is a lawyer in the Army, and apprised 
him of the situation. Then they asked me to come to 
Washington to talk about it and they wanted to know if 
there was a possibility that an account like that could 
have been established when I was a part of YELLOW FRUIT. 




Q Okay. We'll come back to the bank accounts in 
a moment. One of those plans that you worked on I 
believe was a concept paper dealing with, among other 
things, possible diversion of equipment, supplies, arms 
to the contras from foreign military sales 
is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Tell us what you recall about that paper. 




^mmm 



402 




~ "|d||o|j| 32 

1 A Okay. There was a concept paper that was 

2 brought to the BSI offices by Colonel Longhofer, I 

3 believe. It could have been someone else, but for some 

4 reason I believe it was Colonel Longhofer and 

5 who brought this to the BSI offices. It was a plan that 

6 * BSI was going to support in the future. And it was in a 

7 little black binder. It was probably maybe 30 or 40 

8 pages at most. It didn't have any letterhead stationery. 

9 It wasn't signed by anyone. 

10 It^talked to the fact that in the leadoff 

11 paragraph it stated that this plan was a contingency plan 

12 that would be implemented in the event that funding for 

13 the contras was cut off for any reason. It went on to 

14 talk about the possibilities of supplying the contras 

15 with support — 

16 Q When you say cut-off, you mean by legislative 

17 act? 

18 A The plan itself didn't say that, but that is 

19 what was talked about in the office was the Boland 

20 Amendment. Everybody was worried about the Boland 

21 Amendment. It was going to cut off funds for the contras 

22 and we would all be out of a job and how are we going to 

23 get around this thing. 

24 Q And the Boland Amendment was mentioned by 
2 5 namel 



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liHaASSiED 



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A Yes, it was. But this plan talked about the 
various ways of supplying the contras indirectly, and one 
of the methods that was described wasi 

'military aid in some form or a military 
sales program of some type, and it talked to the fact 
that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H could be the 

materials and supplies for the contras, and then it would 
be given^^^^H^^^^with the understanding under the 
table that those items that had been padded would be 
given to the contras! 

It also talked to a supply system that would 
require aviation assets and that an airfield would have 
to be constructed in order to support that operation. It 
talked about two possibilities. 

Q Let's come back to the airfield in a moment. 
Do you have any idea why! 

A I have no idea whatsoever. 

Q Was there anything in the concept paper that 
would suggest ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Icont acted or that this 
had been explored with . 

A Yes, it was. I believe that that was the 
case. They had been picked because they were receptive 
or they would be willing to do this. 

MR. SABA: Was the specific type of aid 
discussed? 




m\mm 



404 



ONSUSSIEIED 



34 



1 THE WITNESS: It talked about uniforms. I 

2 remember that specifically. It talked about supplying 
uni forms ^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H that be 

4 over to the contras. There was a shopping list of items. 

5 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

6 ' Q Were there items on the shopping list that 

7 would have been lethal — guns, ammunition? 

8 A I just do not recall. There could have been, 

9 but I just don't know. 

10 Q But it clearly would come under the heading of 

11 military equipment? 

12 A Oh, yeah, absolutely. 

13 Q Do you recall any dollar figures being used 

14 for either the total amount of the FMS salesj 

15 or that portion that would have been padded to be 

16 diverted to the contras? 

17 A I don't recall. It seems like there was 

18 discussions of money in this plan, but I don't recall if 

19 it had dollar figures or not. It talked about who was 

20 going to pay for this and it talked about DOD picking up 

21 a big chunk of this, and it was going to be a hard point 

22 to sell at DOD, and some of it would be supplied by the 

23 Agency and it named various other groups that would 

24 supply money somehow to this thing. 

25 Q Do you recall what any of those were? 

i?! 




JS V 




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'mi 

m 

A No, I sur« don't. 

Q Do you recall the names of any individuals in 
that concept paper who night have been party to putting 
it together or who would be necessary to actually 
implement it? 

A I don't recall if there were any names like 
that or not. I know that agencies were named. There 
were names of individuals in the plan itself, but th«y 
were dealing primarily with the airfield. 

Q When you say agencies were named, what do you 
mean? 

A Well, like the CIA, Department of Defense, 
those types of things. 

Q Has DSAA, Defense Security Assistance Agency, 
mentioned? 

A It could have been, but I honestly just don't 
remember . 

Q Was the Department of the Army specifically 
mentioned? 

A It was mentioned in the context of supporting 
this plan, the YELLOW FRUIT operation 




Q Was there anything at the beginning — 
anywhere in the plan but most likely at the beginning — 




406 






36 

1 which gave any indication of its origin, such as 

2 "pursuant to discussions" or "as has been tasked" or "as 

3 has been requested" , et cetera? 

4 A I believe the best I can recall there was a 

5 draft Finding that was a part of this plan. I don't 

6 remember if it was an attachment or in the beginning it 

7 talked about a Finding. 

8 Q By a Finding do you mean what we have come to 

9 think of as a Presidential Finding used in covert 

10 operations? 

11 A Yes. I believe that's what it was talking 

12 about. I believe that's what it was, but I'm not 100 

13 percent sure of that. I just remember the word Finding 

14 and there was either a draft Finding or there was talk 

15 about it in this plan. 

16 Q How would you characterize the language in 

17 this concept paper? 

18 A Well, my background in working with various 

19 intelligence agencies for 20 years, I recognize a DOD or 

20 an Army plan right off the bat because of the 

21 construction of it — five-paragraph field order type 

22 construction. And all those plans are constructed the 

23 same way. This was not done in that way. It was done 

24 more in generalities. It was done in the type of thing 

25 that I've seen come out of the CIA. It was that type of 




I 



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plan, discussed things in general terms. 

Q Would it be fair to say the inference you drew 
was that this was not prepared within DA? 

A I don't believe it was prepared by Army people 
simply by the way that it was written and the involvement 
that we had with the CIA through^^^^^^^^Hit was just 
a natural assumption on my part that it came from the 
CIA. 

Q Did you ever ask anyone where this came from? 

A Ko, I don't believe so. 

Here countriesJ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ mentioned? 

A I know Costa Rica was mentioned as a location 
for an airfield, that had been selected as the location 
for the airfield, It discussed 




Q By '*thi8 idea" we're talking about the 
proposed airfield now in Costa Rica or somewhere in 
Central America? 

A That's correct. 

Q All right. Tell us about that. 

A It discussed the fact that this supply network 




408 



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would have to have aircraft support to deliver supplies, 
that type of thing, and it discussed the two potentials. 

The other was down in 
Costa Rica. Now Z didn't remember this name at the time 
when I was interviewed by CID, but I've seen the name 
John K4>11 in the press since then, and Z believe that is 
probably the name of the individual, because it was an 
American living in Costa Rica who owned this huge ranch, 
just tons of property, and that was the place that they 
were going to build this airport to run the supply 
network. 

Q Has there a trip or trips made in terms of 
site selection? 

A 




Q Do you have any idea what happened to this 
concept paper — physically to the document itself? 

A I don't )cnow. Z know when Z left BSI it was 
in the safe. Zt was still there in the safe at BSZ when 
Z left. 



y 




409 



UNd^i^SlFiiD 



39 



1 Q And to your knowledge has it surfaced in the 

2 course of these many investigations? 

3 A I personally have not seen it. 

4 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: (Resuming) 

5 Q I apologize if I missed this while I stepped 

6 out. But you said there was a Finding discussed. What 

7 time frame was the Finding discussed? 

8 A This was like in August of 1983. 

9 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

10 Q It was a draft Finding, was it not? 

11 A As best I can recall it was either a draft 

12 Finding or it talked about this Finding. None of these 

13 things were signed. I mean, there was nothing signed in 

14 that book. It was all just on bond paper. 

15 Q But would it have been a proposed Finding that 

16 would be necessary for the President to sign in order to 

17 carry out this operation, or is it that the concept paper 

18 outlined a particular operation that could perhaps be 

19 done pursuant to an existing Finding? 

20 A No. I think it had to have a Finding in order 

21 to do this and do it properly. See, every operation that 

22 I've ever been associated with in the 20-something years 

23 that I've been involved in the intelligence business I 

24 have never seen a signed Finding. They are always draft 

25 when you get them and you start building your plan of 



yrasssm 



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40 

support based upon that Finding. 

And so I personally have never seen a signed 
Finding ever. I've only seen draft Findings and that's 
how the plans come and you work on them assuming that 
Finding is going to be signed, and you never really know 
for sure if it is. 

Q For the record, do you have any knowledge that 
this concept was ever implemented or that implementation 
was attempted? 

A I believe implementation was attempted. At 
least the mechanisms were being put In place to do that, 
because they started surveying the airfield. I believe 
that an account was established or was in the process of 
being established when I left there to support that - 
operation. 

Q A financial account, bank account? 

A Yes. 

Q At some point shortly after reading this 
concept paper you were out of town on travel, after which 
you C2une back and there were some bank signature cards to 
sign. What can you tell us about that? 

A 




411 



KUSSIFIEB 



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,u. ^" 









omssiFiEo 



412 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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z 






UNCUSSIFIED 



413 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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•• in-*' ; ^? 'I 



44 




THE WITNESS: No. I went ro Dover, Delaware, 



yNKHssmo 



415 



UNSUiSsra 



45 



1 where you register corporations. There's a street you go 

2 down there. There must be 500 lawyers on the street. 

3 It's got signs hanging out all over the place. You know, 

4 register your corporation here, $5, you know, for the 

5 paperwork — that kind of stuff. 

6 Okay. The lawyers over there, they are 

7 shysters. They are a dime a dozen. Everywhere you look, 

8 there's lawyers. And they will go down and do this stuff 

9 for you, you know, for $5, $10. 

10 And so I went over to Delaware and I went down 

11 there and there was a line of people a mile long 

12 registering corporations. I mean, you know, shady- 

13 looking characters. And I didn't want to go in there 

14 with a badge and credentials and try to get the 

15 information on] 

16 So I went down and found myself a lawyer on a 

17 corner and I paid him $20 and he went down and got 

18 microfiche of this company for me. I went to lunch, came 

19 back, and he had it for me. And then I brought that back 

20 and gave it to Duncan and these guys. 

21 MR. SABA: Do you recall what information was 

22 on the microfiche? 

23 THE WITNESS: I remembei 

24 ^^^^|and some other person. I don't remember what the 

25 other guy's name was. It was another guy. It was a two- 





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nan corporation/^. Their assets was $100. There was one 
piece of paper in this file. 

MR. SABA: Did you visit the offices| 
at that time? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

THE NO. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^B 




BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 




Q After you left Delaware, where did you go? 
A 




Q And when you came back what did you find 



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waiting for you? 




Q What else do you recall about the signature 



cards? 




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MR. SABA: Do you recall the country of 
domicile of any of those banks? 




BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

You do recall, though, some being in a non- 



English language? 



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A Yeah. It seems to me like they were in 
English anB French. One thing was written in English, 
one written in French. But I'm not absolutely sure of 
that. I know there was some foreign language there. 

Q Did you ask anyone what these signature cards 
related to? 

A I just assumed that they were for the 
projects. I mean, I didn't really have to ask. I just 
assumed that's what they were for. There would be no 
other reason for them. 

Q Do you have reason to also assume that one or 
more of them related to the concept paper you had seen 
about support for the contras after the Boland Amendment 
was enacted? 

A Yes, 




Q In the concept paper did it mention possible 
use of banks outside of the United States for that 
account? 



I don't recall that it mentioned that. 



It 



DNKSOTIEO 



420 



UUCIASMJ) 



50 



1 seems like it did, but I cannot remember for sure. 

2 Q During the course of earlier investigations 

3 outside of the Iran-contra affair investigations did you 

4 have occasion to )cnow that you might have signed a bank 

5 signature card for Creduit Suisse? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Tell us how you came to know that you might 

8 have done that. 

9 A In April, early April, I received a call from 

10 a fellow named Rosenberg who works for CBS News, and he 

11 told me that he had independent confirmation from a 

12 European source that there was a Swiss bank account that 

13 had General Secord, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North, Mr. 

14 Patterson and myself as signators to that account. And I 

15 referred Mr. Rosenberg to the Army P\iblic Affairs 

16 Officer, and then I got in touch with Major Frothingham 

17 here in Washington and told him what Rosenberg had said. 

18 And he asked me if I could remember ever 

19 establishing any account like that, and I related to him 

20 the story about the plan and signing the signature 

21 cards. But as far as I knew none of those accounts ever 

22 got established because BSI was done away with shortly 

23 after that, and I just assumed that none of those 

24 accounts were ever established. 

25 But there could have been. So he asked me to 



UimSStffD 



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'^^^ ' lAMi-li-JI 

1 come to Washington fast as I could get here, so I flew 

2 all night and got here the next morning and sat down and 

3 gave the CID the statement on what I could remember about 

4 it. 

5 Q And then what happened next? 

6 A I was interviewed by the Independent Counsel's 

7 office — several lawyers, a bunch of FBI agents — and 

8 we went through this nutroll again, just like we're doing 

9 today — the same thing over and over. 

10 Q Did you ever have occasion to communicate with 

11 Credit Suisse? 

12 A Yes, I did. I called Mr. Rosenberg after I 

13 got back to Arizona and I asked hio for the account 

14 number of this Swiss bank account. 

15 Q And did he tell you it was] 

16 A Yes, he did. 

17 Q And he told you that that was the number he 

18 had been given by his independent European source? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q Okay. And then what happened? 

21 A I then placed a call to Switzerland and I got 

22 the telephone number through the operator and I called, I 

23 believe, that night. But there was a time difference and 

24 there was no answer. I called the next morning about 

25 6:00 in the morning and I talked to whoever answered the 




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52 

phone. You )cnow, they referred me to some banker. 

And I told him that I believed that there was 
an account that had been established In 1983, that I was 
a signator to the account, and I wanted to find out if 
the account actually existed. So I gave him the account 
number and he told me, yes, the account exists. And I 
said I want to get all the records of that account 
because — - go ahead. 

Q Was this Mr.^^^^^Hyou were talking to? 

A No. Initially I talked to someone else. And 
when I told him what I wanted to do he referred me. He 
said let me put you on to somebody else. He referred me 
tQ^^^^^|. And I talked to Mr.^^^^H, went through 
the same drill with him, and gave him the account number. 
And you could hear him working a little machine in the 
background, and then he started asking me personal data 
cjuestions — date of birth, wife's first naune — just a 
bunch of information which I gave him. 

And then he said, well, you know, what do you 
want? And Z said I'd like to get copies of all the 
records of the account. 

Q Did Mr.^^^^H or was it the first 
individual to whom you spoke at the bank who confirmed 
the account number? 

A It was, I think, really both. The first guy I 



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talked to, I gav* him th« number and he pulled It up and 
he asked ne what I wanted. And I told him that I wanted 
to get copies of all the records of the account, that I 
needed them because some of these guys were in trouble 
with the law and I wanted to make sure that I didn't have 
any problems. I wanted to see what was in the account. 

Q And when they confirmed the number did they 
tell you that their records showed you had one too many 
^^^■in 

A That was Mr. ^^^^^B When I talked to him I 
gave him the number. When he gave ma the information on 
the account he said it had too many^^^^lin the account 
number. 

Q And their records showed the account number as 



A Yes. 

Q And did Mr.^^^^^Hconfirm that the account 
showed as signatories General Secord, Colonel North, Pat 
Patterson, yourself, and was Robert Owen also on that 
account? 

A Yeah. I believe Owen was in the account as 
well. 

Q So he confirmed as to Secord? 

A What I did, he asked me some questions about 
the account. I gave him the number and told him what I 



\ 



WIISSIFIED 



424 



«; 'J =\ a ^ * * ^-1 Tfc 




54 

1 wanted. He said who else is on the account. And I said 

2 Secord, North — I had the names written out — Owen, 

3 Patterson, myself. 

4 Q And he confirmed the existence of General 

5 Secord on the account? 

6 A Well, he didn't say yes, I have the account 

7 here and these are the names that are on it. He was very 

8 cagey and he wanted to know what I wanted. You know, 

9 once he pulled the information up, he wanted to know what 

10 did I want to do, what did I want to transact. And I 

11 said I wanted copies of everything that has been 

12 transacted in that account since it came into existence. 

13 And I said that I would be willing to come to 

14 Switzerland to get the information, how did I go about 

15 it, what did he need from me. And he told me he needed a 

16 letter, and he gave me the specific information to go in 

17 the letter. He needed exemplars of my signature about 

18 four or five times — you know, that type of information. 

19 He needed passport numbers, a variety of information that 

20 I was to put in the letter to send to him to get the 

21 account information. 

22 Q We'll come to that in a moment. At some point 
2 3 he did what you have characterized as confirming these 

24 various names. How did that happen? 

25 A He asked me who was on the accounts and I read 



mmmi 



425 



]|4^1A^\ 





55 



1 off the names to him, and then I asked him specifically. 

2 Before I hung up, I said, look, I don't want to come all 

3 the way to Switzerland and not be able to get anything. 

4 I want to make sure that my name is in this goddam 

5 account with these guys. And he said yes, it's here, you 

6 know. You are a signator to the account. 

7 So that was it. 

8 Q But did he ever affirmatively say that General 

9 Secord was a signator? 

10 A No. He never said, you know, these guys are - 

11 all signators to the account during that conversation, 

12 no. 

13 Q Did he ever say that as to Colonel North? 

14 A No. 

15 Q He never said it as to Pat Patterson? 

16 A No. I provided him with those names when he 

17 asked me who was on the account with me. 

18 Q And he never said that as to Robert Owen? 

19 A No. 

20 Q But he didn't — 

21 A He didn't deny any of it. He acted to me like 

22 when I gave him those names and I gave him my date of 
2 3 birth, that information, it seemed to put him at ease 

24 that he was dealing with a person that he had the 

25 information on. 







426 



UHGIASHD 



56 



1 Q Did he tell you anything else about the 

2 account — when it was set up, whether there were 

3 successor accounts, et cetera? 

4 A He asked me when it was set up and I told him 

5 in August or September of 1983. Now in a subsequent 

6 ' conversation, after I mailed the letter to Mr. 

7 asking for this information, I received a call from him 

8 the following Monday or Tuesday — I believe it was a 

9 Tuesday — early in the morning. 

10 Q You mailed your information on a Thursday? 

H A I think it was a Thursday. I sent it by 

12 overnight express mail and I received a call from him 

13 very early in the morning. The first cjuestion he asked 

14 me was am I working for the U.S. Government. And I told 

15 him that I had retired from the government, and he said, 

16 but you're only 40 years old. And I said, yes, but I 

17 spent 20 years in the Army and in the Army you can retire 

18 regardless of your age at 20 years. 

19 Then he kind of danced around for a while 

20 jUsout the account. He said, you know, this account, it's 

21 very difficult. He kept telling me how difficult it was 

22 on this account. And eventually he said it evolved into 
2 3 other accounts. Do you know the other account numbers? 
24 I said, well, I don't know right offhand any other 

2 5 account numbers, but I can root around, talk to old 



BimOTEO 



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buddies and see what I can find out, and maybe I can find 
out what they are. 

And he said he needed the other account 
numbers in order to provide me with everything that I 
wanted. 





mother 
letter to Mr.^^^^^^^tating that I wanted what he had 
on the original account and that I would attempt to try 
to get the other account numi^ers to give to him at some 
later time. 

And Z wrote the letter and sent it out, and I 
haven't heard anything from Mr J 

Q You mailed that approximately April 19? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did you ever while at BSZ make any deposits to 
Swiss bank accounts? 

A No. 

Q So as far as you know nothing that you would 
have done would have utilized such an account? 

A No. 

Q And for the record, at the time you were at 
BSI you were not aware that there was an account with BSI 
as part of YELLOW FRUIT in a Swiss bank? 

A No, I did not. 



yHtiraFitD 



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Q Do you recall having seen any other financial 
documents — deposit slips, check registers, record of 
wire transfer, et cetera — involving Swiss bank 
accounts? 

k There could have been. I just don't recall 
specifically. 




absolutely sure 
Q And 



you recall there having been a ban]c^B 




A There was more than one^^^^^^^^^^H There 
were several 

Q And you recall that! 
may have been one of the accounts that Patterson used to 
launder money? 

A Yes, that's correct, because X recall there 
was a deposit. It was a large one. Z think it was 
$250,000 that was made to the BSI checking account from 
that bank. 

Q Do you know, for the record. Colonel North? 

A Z have been to at least one meeting, maybe 
two, where Colonel North was there. 



m 




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59 

Q Was it unrelated to YELLOW FRUIT? 

A It was totally unrelated to YELLOW FRUIT. 

Q And you have had no dealings with him on 
anything part of the Iran-contra affair? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q For the record, do you know General Secord? 

A I don't believe I've ever met General Secord. 
I think he was in southeast Asia the same time I was. I 
have heard his name batted around for years in southeast 
Asia. 

Q And, for the record, do you know Mr. Owen? 

A I don't believe I've ever met Mr. Owen. 
BY MR. SABA: 

Q Just a few questions. Returning to the matter 
in which BSI did its business, did it undertake contracts 
with private third parties? 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q What kind of activities would these contracts 
have been? 

A Rental of equipment primarily, rental cars — 
you know, those types of things. 

Q Did BSI engage in contracts with third parties 
for operational purposes? 

A When you say BSI, I think you've got to look_ 
at^^^^^ 



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aASSffl 



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MR. SABA: I have no further questions. 
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 
Q Let me offer as Deposition Exhibit 1 what I 
believe to be the sworn statement that you provided Army 
CID on DA form 2823 on 2 April 87. 

(The document referred to was 
marked Golden Exhibit Number 1 
for identification.) 
Does this look fauniliar to you, Mr. Golden? 
A Yes, it does. 

Q And that is your statement that you provided? 
A Yes. 

Q And that was a sworn statement that you gave 
to the Army investigators? 

A Yes, that's correct. 

Q And to the best of your knowledge all of the 
information in there is correct? 

A Yes, to the best of my recollection, yes. 
MR. SAXON: Off the record. 
(A discussion was held off the record.) 
BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 
Q What can you tell us about why you didn't make 

32!^ 






431 



(jfi^lwviWtU / 



61 



1 any connection between any Swiss bank accounts which 

2 you've talked about now with the earlier investigations? 

3 A I think early on in 1983 I made reference in 

4 sworn statements back and then and in conversations with 

5 the investigators and with the U.S. Attorney to the 

6 possibility of other bank accounts, and in fact I brought 

7 this up a number of times. I made 70-something trips 

8 back here as a part of that investigation to assist the 

9 FBI and the Army in sorting through all of this mess. 

10 I suspected a long time ago that there were 

11 bank accounts established and I didn't know what the 

12 purpose of those accounts were. I think the Army did try 

13 to look at some of those at some point, but there was so 

14 much overwhelming evidence against Colonel Duncan that it 

15 was a chore just to catalog the information. There must 

16 have been 15 safes full of material, and I was told at 

17 one point that it was a fruitless effort because it was 

18 just too time-consuming to bury that many agents in that 

19 type of investigation when they really didn't need that 

20 information to prosecute Colonel Duncan. 

21 Q Is it correct, then, that the first evidence 

22 you had that your name might have appeared as a signatory 

23 on a Swiss bank account was when you got the call from 

24 Mr. Rosenberg of CBS News? i 

25 A Yes, that's correct. I 



illtlSSWffl) 



432 



y 






62 



1 Q And the actual verification of what that 

2 account number was came from Mr. Rosenberg? 

3 A Yes, it did. 

4 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: (Resuming) 

5 Q You knew that there was a position paper 

6 prepared that discussed diversion of funds to the 

7 contras, did you not? 

8 A No, I didn't know that — for diversion of 

9 funds — no. 

10 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

11 Q The position paper you saw dealt with padding 

12 in terms of equipment and supplies, with that possibly 

13 going to the contras? 

14 A That's right. It didn't talk about giving 

15 them money and laundering money or anything like that 

16 that I can recall. The mechanism that was needed to fund 

17 it, to buy things for them, would have to be set up. 

18 BY MR. ALBRIGHT: (Resuming) 

19 Q I think you said earlier you remembered that 
2 it clearly was a method by which Boland could be — 

21 A There was no question about it. I mean, that 

22 was the whole purpose of the plan, was to circumvent the 

23 Boland Amendment. 

24 Q You remember when this story broke that led us 
2 5 to this investigation. Did you not make the connection 



BNCttSStftED 



433 



KAW4iO 



63 



1 then? Why didn't you contact someone? 

2 A I suspected that was the case, but, I mean, 

3 you know, the plan was In the BSI offices when it was 

4 taken down, and I assumed that the Army had the plan and 

5 they had access more than I did to the material that was 

6 in BSI. I never saw the plan after I left there. But 

7 when the investigation started they confiscated 

8 everything in the office and It was either shredded or 

9 they had the plan. I really didn't know. 

10 BY MR. SABA: (Resuming) 

11 Q To your knowledge, was the device of padding 

12 contracts, whether with other countries or perhaps with 

13 other third parties, previously used for any other 

14 purposes? 

15 A Z don't have any personal knowledge. I've 

16 heard all kinds of stories and rumors about that type of 

17 thing happening, but I don't have any direct knowledge of 

18 it. 

19 Q In your knowledge of the contractsi 

20 ^^HI^^^Hentered into with third parties, were these 

21 generally contracts contemplating profit?' 

22 A Oh, yeah, they had to be. I mean, just the 
2 3 nature of the business. I mean, it was a good ole boy 
24 network. 
2 5 Q To your knowledge was it understood that any 



111 



IlllSIHfB 



434 



ymiiSSiED 



64 



1 portion of such profit would go to a purpose directed by 

2 the contracting agency? 

3 A No. I didn't have any knowledge of that at 

4 all. 

5 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

6 Q When you spoke with Mr^^^^^^Bln either of 

7 your two phone conversations did he ever verify whether 

8 the account number, the account with the numbe]^^^^^H, 

9 currently had any money In It? Was It an open account, 

10 an active account? Did It have money? 

11 A No. I never asked hla that. Z just told him 

12 Z needed the records, was what I was after. The story I 

13 told him was that these other people that were slgnators 

14 to the account were In trouble with the law, and he acted 

15 very surprised at that. And I said what I'm trying to do 

16 Is protect myself. Z want to know what has gone on In 

17 that account that Z might be subject to be questioned 

18 about. I want to get copies of everything so I know 

19 where I stand with the government. 

20 Q So you didn't ask It. Did he volunteer 

21 whether there was money In the account? 

22 A No. 

23 Q Did you ask whether you would be able at 

24 present to make withdrawals or deposits into that 

25 account? 



ylitWP 



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A No, I didn't ask. 

Q Tell us, to the best of your understanding, 
where things stand in terras of your getting something in 
terms of these records from Credit Suisse. 

A The last letter I wrote to Mr .^^^^^H was on 
the 19th of April, and the letter basically stated! 




that I wanted the information relative to the basic 
account that had been established, and that I would 
attempt to find out the other numbers that he said I 
needed to get, the other information, but in the meantime 
I wanted him to send me whatever he had that he could 
give me. 

Q So you are waiting now to receive that? 

A Yes. 

Q And consistent with what you had been told in 
your conversations, you have eve^ reason to believe you 
will get records? 

A Yeah, I think so. 

set up a post office box number and I have 
TheckeTl-t every day up until yesterday. 
BY MR. SABA: (Resuming) 
Q Let me understand. You gave as a return 
address a P.O. Box? 



ICBSStflED 



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■ ■> ■i" ih ■■■ ' 



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A That's correct. 

Q You did not glv* your hom« address? 

A No, I did not. 

BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 




BY MR. SABA: (Resuning) 
Q For th« racord, in yoxir telephone calls to Mr. 

|vhat telephone number did you use to reach him? 
A The city code, I think, was^^H The number is 



BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

And that is in Geneva, Switzerland? 

Yes. And the letter I wrote to Mr. 




437 



1 MR. SAXON: Mr. Golden, I think that's all we 

2 have at this time. 

3 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

4 Q One other thing, Mr. Golden. I believe you 

5 have some copies of documentary evidence, some memoranda 

6 for the record, which you prepared of various phone 

7 conversations and correspondence involved. Is that 

8 something you could make available to the Committees? 

9 A Yes. I can make available the letters that I 

10 wrote to Mr.^^^^^Hand I tape recorded the 

11 conversations, the two conversations, where I placed the 

12 calls to MrJ^^^^^Hand I do have that and I can 

13 provide that to you. 

14 MR. SAXON: On behalf of both Committees, we 

15 want to thank you for being here and for your candor and 

16 time. Thank you very much. 

17 (Whereupon, at 12:44 p.m., the taking of the 

18 instant deposition ceased. 
19 



20 Signature of the Witness 

21 Subscribed and Sworn to before m« this day 

22 of , 1987. 

23 



24 Notary Public 

25 My Commission Expires: . 



IfflCtSSSIFIED 



438 




CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 



I, 



M i c h a 1 A . 3 c '.-. a f 9 r 



, the officer before whom che 



foregoing deposition vas taken, do hereby certify that the witness 
whose testinony appears in the foregoing deposition was iaLy sworn 

by ^^ ; that the testimony of said wicness was 

taken by tne to the best of ay ability and thereafter reduced to typewriting 
under ay direction; that said deposition is a true record of the testimony 
given by said witness; that I aa neither counsel for, related to, nor 
employed by any of the parties to the action in which this deposition 
was taken, and further that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 



)MLc})aJJin)^fchCi 



NOTARY PUBLIC 



My Comm 



ission expires: ^/-AS/^U 



UNCLASSIFIED 



439 



ULLU otrormKi co . mc 
107 c So««T. N E 
VuiuofUfl. D C iwn? 




CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 
I, Terry Barham, the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my supervision; that said deposition transcript is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action . 




Terry Bar|iamj^,i»€tary Public in 
and for the District of Columbia 



My commission expires May 15, 1989. 




440 



;bl 



MILLER mromwa co . mc. 

507 C Su«t. N E 
Washin|ton. D C. 20002 
(3021 \4f^Mi^ 



\ >^ 







SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATES 

^ AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Friday, September 11, 1987, 
Washington, D.C. 
Deposition of FRANCIS D. GOMEZ, taken on behalf of 
the Select Conunittees above cited, pursuant to notice, com- 
mencing at 10:15 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart Senate Office 
Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public in and for the 
District of Columbia, when were present: 
For the Senate Select Committee: 

JAMES E. KAPLAN, Esq. 
For the House Select Committee: 



Ho(;s 



SPENCER OLIVER, Esq, 

THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. ^.^^^^(^^1 

KEN BUCK, Esq Partially Declaiafie<l/Re?eg6(1 ■-, ■ T" ». 

under provision* of LOu IQTS 
byJBBi National Sfifiudte 



iiNmssffii 



441 



tb2 



2-3 



UNCLASSiFli 



For the deponent: 

RONALD G. PRECUP, Esq 
Nussbaum, Owen, and Webster 
One Thomas Circle 
Washington, D.C. 20005 

CONTENTS 



MUfn HcrowTwa co.. MC. 
507 C Siicn. N E 
VuhuftiKi. O C 2O0C2 



Examination by 
Mr. Kaplan 
Mr. Buck 
Mr. Oliver 

Gomez Deposition Exhibits 
1 
2 
3 
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5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 



EXHIBITS 




Page 

4 

124 

128 

Marked 
4- 
5 

15 

49 
51 
98 
131 
138 
153 
161 



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24 

ynxER nE^onrriNa CO.. inc. 
507 C Suect. N E 2 5 

Wuhtngton. D C 10002 



HNtUiSSm 



PROCEEDINGS 
Whereupon, 

FRANCIS D. GOMEZ 
was called as a witness and, after having been first duly- 
sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Could you please state your full name for the 
record? 

A Francis D. Gomez. 

Q Just some housekeeping formalities here. You 
understand, Mr. Gomez, that this deposition is being taken 
pursuant to subpoenas that were issued back in April. I've 
got a letter here from your counsel which I aun glad to mark 
as an exhibit to the deposition, which states that this sub- 
poena issued by our Committee remains in force even though 
your appearance was excused back in April. I will ask the 
reporter to mark this letter Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 1. 

(The document referred to was 
marked Gomez Deposition Exhibit 
No. 1 for identification. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Then I will ask the reporter to mark as Deposition 
Exhibit 2 a composJ 



IIHn'KfvlFlfIt 



the order from the 



443 



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■Ujn HOOflTMO CO., MC 
>07CSum. NE 25 

Vuhinfton. D C. 20002 



ONCUSSIflED 



United States District Court for the District of Columbia of 
immunity pursuant to application by the Senate Select 
Committee, and an order issued by the same court pursuant to 
an application for immunity by the House Select Committee, 
which compels your testimony here today. 

I will just state for the record that your testimony 
here today is being compelled pursuant to both of these 
orders. I will ask you if that's your understanding as to 
your appearance here today. 
A ^ Yes. 

(The document referred to was 
marked as Gomez Deposition 
Exhibit No. 2 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Could you state your Social Security number? 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q 
A 




What is your date of birth? 

July 24, 1941. 

Are you currently employed? 

Yes. 

What is your position or employment? 

I'm president of my own consulting firm which is 



called Public Affairs Resources, Inc. 



How 



i\m ft^^ifif rr 



ed there? 



444 



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IUU0I ncMimra co.. mc. 

)07 C Sa«t. N E 25 

Wuhui|<o<i. D C 20002 



KIASSIFIEB 



A Well, I changed the name of my previous company, 
which was Gomez International, and the name change was 
effective in August. So I have been employed by Gomez 
International since early 1986. 

Q Is that the same time when Gomez International was 
formed? — ~^ 

A Yes. 

Q What was the purpose of the name change? 

A I wanted something that reflected more what I did. 
Gomez International doesn't say what I do . I found a lot of 
people asking, when I presented my card, well, what do you 
do, and I had to explain that. 

Q Is Gomez International a partner along with -- I'm 
sorry, the newly named corporation? 

A PAR. 

Q That's Public Affairs Resources? 

A Yes. 

Q Is Public Affairs Resources, Inc. a partner along 
with Miller Communications in the partnership of International 
Business Communications? 

A No. 

When did that partnership cease? 
July 31, formally. 
July 31 of this year? 



Q 
A 

Q 
A 



Yes. 

Hill 



445 



mc7 



■LL£P ncrOOTIMO CO 

W7 C SoCTi. N E 
Wulun{T0D. D C 20002 



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UHCLASSIFI 



Q Okay. What was the purpose of the cessation of 
that partnership? 

A The purpose was to do business on my own. 

Q What is the nature of your business? 

A I do public affairs consulting, trade and investment 
promotion, public relations. 

Q Where are your offices? 

A 1912 Sunderland Place. 

Q Do you share offices with International Business 
Communications ? 

A I rent offices from IBC. 

Q In your immediate prior employment as a self- 
employed individual at Gomez International, were the services 
the same as you perform now with Public Affairs Resources? 

A Basically, except that I'm more into a business 
development mode, business promotion mode now. 

Q Do you share profits with anyone as a sole pro- 
prietor of Public Affairs Resources? 

A No. 

Q What was your employment prior to the formation of 
Gomez International in January of 1986? 

A I was a consultant, private consultant to IBC; a 
subcontractor, in effect. 

Q Were you performing services similar to those that 
you performed as a sole proprietor of Gomez International and 



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■u£* nromvta co.. wc 
507 C ScTMt. N E 2 5 

Wuhinron. D C 20002 




Public Affairs Resources? 
A . Yes. 

How long had you held the position with IBC? 
From February 1984 to January or February 1986. 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 



What had you done prior to February of 1984 7 

I as a foreign service information office with the 



U.S. Information Agency. 

Q How long had you held that position? 

A There were various changes in the status or the 
type of. title that we had, but I was with the USIA for 19 
years and 10 months, something like that. 

Q Had you performed a variety of different services 
for USIA, or were your duties as public information officer 
similar with increasing responsibility over time? 

A They were, in a very broad sense, similar, but work 
overseas is somewhat different from work in the United States. 

Q Was the last portion of the tenure of your position 
at USIA work in the United States? 

A Yes; from 1978 to 1984. 

Q what is the last position that you actually held 
with USIA? 

A Director of Foreign Press Centers. 

Q How long did you hold that position? 

A Almost two years. 

Q What's your educational background? 



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auLOt mroimta co . inc. 
)0- C Sirra. N E 2 5 

Wuhinitoa. DC 20002 
(2021 ua.a^v;a 



ONCUSSiFlEO 



A I have a bachelor's degree from the University of 
Washington in political science, a master's degree in public 
administration from George Washington University, and not a 
degree but I had a fellowship in international economics and 
public affairs at the Woodrow Wilson School of Public 
International Affairs in 1973-74. 

Q When did you attain your degree at the University 
of Washington? 

A 1964. 

Q ■ When did you attain your master's degree at George 
Washington? 

A '82. 

Q Were you attending school at George Washington in 
the evenings? 

A Yes. 

Q Part-time? 

A For four years . 

Q For a master's degree for four years? 

A Yes, one at a time. 

Q When did you first meet Rich Miller? 

A I went to work as Deputy Assistant Secretary of 
State for Public Affairs in, I guess, July 1980. At that 
time he was not yet at the State Department or AID, but after 
the election he came to AID as Director of Public Affairs. 
We met shortly thereafter, which must have been early 1981. 



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HLLER RCPORTINa CO., INC. 
507 C Sum. N E 25 

Waj.'unjtoo. C : 20002 
12021 V46-666< 



UNCLASSIREI 



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I can't pinpoint the date. 

We met each other in the context of meetings on 
public affairs strategies for the department and AID. 

Q Did you discuss with Mr. Miller the substance of 
his deposition testimony before these Committees before your 
' coming here this morning? 

A No. 

Q Have you discussed with David Fischer the substance 
of his deposition testimony before these Committees before 
you came here? 

A No. 

Q Have you discussed with anyone the substance of 
their private deposition testimony before these Committees 
before having come here to testify today? 

A No. 

Q With any witness? 

A No. 

Q Do you now hold a security clearance? 

A No. Not to my knowledge. Frankly, I don't know 
what happened at the end of the Defense Department, whatever 
they did, for the State Department contract. I don't know 
how that turned out. 

Q So I take it, then, in the past you did hold some 
security clearances? 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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■UJH MCPOXTWO CO.. MC. 
)0; C ium N E 25 

WuhiHgTon. D C 20002 



UNCUSSIFlffl 



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Q Did you hold security clearances while you were 
with USIA in the State Department? 

A Yes. It's required. 

Q Do you recall what level of clearance you held 
during your time there? 

A I believe it was top secret. 

Q Did you continue to hold a security clearance for 
some time after your government service terminated in January 
of 1984? 

A . Yes. 

Q How long did you hold that clearance? 

A I don't know exactly when it expired or when it was 
to expire, but I remember checking on it when I left USIA to 
see how long it would be in effect. I understood it was 
going to be a year-and-a-half or two years more, something 
like that. 

Q Do you know why that clearance remained in effect? 

A They clear people for, as I understand it, periods 
of years, and my most recent update had been done a couple of 
years before. 

Q Were you still privy to the classified information 
during your time outside of the government or beyond your 
government service? 

A I understand that I was as a contractor to the 



State Department, yes. 



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■tLuit nrormta co.. wc. 

507 C Sircn. N E 2 5 

Wuhufioii. O C 20002 
nf\7\ MA.IWAA 



iiNcmnED 



12 



Q Was your security clearance maintained at the 
request of someone within the government, to your knowledge? 

A No, only that when I went to the State Department 
as a contractor or subcontractor, I inquired about the 
validity or status of the security clearance and was told 
that I did not have to do anything further to extend or 
update my security clearance. 

Q Who gave you that information? 

A I don't recall. It was in the administrative 
process there. It may have been a call that I initiated 
myself to the USIA security office to inquire about it. 

Q What prompted your request to determine whether 
your security clearance remained in force? 

A The expectation that I would be seeing classified 
documents . 

Q Is it fair to say that expectation was the result 
of the fact that you were a contractor for a State Department 
contract that was classified as secret? 

A No, because all this happened prior to the classifi- 
cation of that contract. The period I'm talking about was 
February, March '84. 

MR. PRECUP: Mr. Kaplan, for the record, by "that 
contract," I think the witness is referring to the State 
Department contract covering fiscal year 1986. Is that what 
you had in mind in your question as well? 



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Mufn nroicrna co.. mc. 
)07 C Scittt. N E 2 5 

Xuhmfton. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



13 



MR. KAPLAN: That is what I had in mind. I 
understand that there are a series of State Department 
contracts that Mr. Gomez and International Business Communi- 
cations held when Mr. Gomez was a principal at IBC. We'll 
get into those contracts a little later and with a bit more 
depth. But that was the contract that I was referring to by 
my shorthand. I appreciate the clarification for the record. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Mr. Gomez, have you ever been an employee or a 
contract agent of any intelligence agency or intelligence 
branch of any department or agency? 
A No. 

Q Do you recall when a corporation named IC, Inc. was 
incorporated in the Cayman Islands? 
A Yes. 

Q Were you an incorporator of that corporation? 
A Yes. 

Q How did you become involved in incorporating IC, 
Inc.? 

A I believe the period was spring of 1985 at a time 
when Mr. Miller and I were dealing with a person who was 
presented to us as a Saudi prince — and I don't remember his 
name -- and who was interested in selling oil and providing 
the profits from the sale of oil, or at least some of the 
profits from the sale of oil, to assist the administration 



452 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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■ami Noomm co.. mc. 
)07 C Screw. N E 25 

Wuhmfim. C 2000! 



and assist the resistance movement in Nicaragua. 

And after some checking, Mr. Miller decided that he 
should, we should, open an offshore account in order to 
provide for ready transfer of those moneys, and also to avoid 
any immediate tax liability for moneys entering the United 
States. We were expecting to deal with large sums and 
anticipated that any large sum coming in would be immediately 
taxable regardless of its ultimate disposition. 

Q Was the decision to form IC, Inc. and the reasons 
for choosing the Cayman Islands as the place of formation a 
decision that you were involved with? 

A No. I was asked to lend my name and my signature 
to those steps. 

Q Did you discuss the formation of IC, Inc. with 
Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q Did you do or take any action other than lend your 
name to the formalization of the steps? 

A No. 

Q By steps, I'm referring to the steps to actually 
register IC, Inc. and establish some bank accounts. 

A Other than lending my name, no. I — 

Q I'm going to ask you -- go ahead. 

A No, just Mr. Miller explained to me what he was 
recommending that we do. That's the extent of my knowledge 

iiiim ncoinun 



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■LLin nrotmxa co.. mc. 
W? C Suttt. N E 2 5 

Vuhmfum D C 20002 



15 



of it. 



UNCLASSIFIEI 



Q Did you do any research into the mechanisms for 
establishing a corporation and related bank accounts in the 
Cayman Islands? 

A No. I believe Mr. Miller did. 

MR. KAPLAN: I will ask the reporter to mark as 
Deposition Exhibit No. 3a copy of a document that was 
produced to us by your counsel in response to subpoenas 
issued by the Committees. 

(The document referred to was 
marked as Gomez Deposition 
Exhibit No. 3 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
BY MR. KAPU'J^: 
Q I ask you if you can identify that document. 
A Well, the names are familiar: the Barclays Bank, 
the Cayhaven Corporate Services, and Walker and Company. But 
I don't know where the document came from. 
Q Did you prepare this document? 
A I don't think so. 

Q Is it possible that you prepared this document? 
A It's possible. 

Q Does this document refresh your recollection as to 
whether you took any steps to determine the various mechanisms 
by which a Cayman Islands corporation and related bank 

llllAi An'r^<^?^l^ 



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Hiufn ntronrma CO.. inc. 
)07 C Smn. N E 2 5 

Wuhmiion. o c. :ooo: 




F 




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accounts could be established? 

A I may have had a phone call or received a phone 
call from one of the persons or more listed here. I remember 
a phone call and taking notes from the phone call, but I 
believe I was doing that on behalf of Mr. Miller. 

Q Is it part of your business practice to have notes 
from telephone calls incorporated into typewritten documents? 

A Normally, no. 

Q I take it it's possible that you had notes from 
phone conversations . 

A It's possible. I don't have any clear recollection 
of this document, especially underlining the management 
company does not look something like what I would do, nor 
underlining the law firm is something that I would do, nor 
even the format of the memo is not my style. 

Q Is it possible that you had a telephone conversation 
with someone about these approaches or mechanisms and gave 
your notes to someone else who then incorporated it into an 
information sheet? 

A That's possible. 

Q Do you recall a time in 1986 when the name of IC, 
Inc. was changed to Intel Cooperation, Inc. and the charter 
of IC, Inc. was also modified? 

A Yes. 

Q Could you describe what your involvement, if any, 



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■uzN ntKxrrma Co.. mc. 
507 C SciCTt N E 25 

TutuniTOD. D C 10002 
•■"171 V46-6«6« 



«(itliSS!l-18 



17 



was in that name and charter change? 

A My involvement was that I was informed of the 
change or the need to change, the desire to -hange, and was 
asked to sign, again, the appropriate papers. 

Q Did you have any involvement in the preparation of 
the papers instituting that name and charter change? 

A Other than lending my signature to a document, I 
had no involvement. 

Q Who informed you of the name and charter change? 

A • Mr. Miller. 

Q Did he tell you why the name and charter change was 
recommended or desired? 

A He did but I don't recall the reason. 

Q Did he tell you that the charter change was being 
made in order to provide more secrecy to the function that 
IC, Inc. was performing at that time? 

A I don't think so. I wish I could give you a 
precise answer, but I do not recall. 

Q Do you recall whether he told you that the charter 
change was being made in an effort to more accurately reflect 
the business of IC, Inc. at that time? 

A I believe something to that effect was discussed. 
Frankly, I was not greatly concerned about it. 

Q Did you review the charter change prior to having 
signed the document that made it? 

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) CO.. MC. 
J07 C Siren. N E 2 5 

Wuhioflon. D.C. 20002 



OiUSSlFIEI 



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A I don't remember. 

Q Was it your practice, Mr. Gomez, to sign documents 
relating to IC, Inc. without a thorough review of the 
substance of those documents? 

A Well, it was my practice, yes, to sign almost 
anything that Mr. Miller put in front of me, unfortunately. 
Usually, he explained what was happening and why and asked 
for my signature. 

Q Going back to the formation of IC, Inc., did Mr. 
Miller tell you whether he had had any conversations with 
Colonel North about the formation of that company? 

A Yes, I believe he did. 

Q Can you describe the substance of your conversations 
with Mr. Miller of his conversations with Colonel North? 

A Yes; very briefly, however. 

I believe that they had discussions on the ad- 
visability of creating or opening a corporation, creating a 
corporation and establishing a bank account overseas. And 
that was about it. 

Q Did Mr. Miller ever tell you that Colonel North had 
instructed him to open an offshore account and corporation? 

A I don't think I could say accurately that this 
would be characterized as an instruction. It may have been a 
request. 

Q Do you recall whether Mr. Miller told you that 

iiimi Aoririrn 



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Hunt HIKMtTHa CO.. MC. 
507 C Sirm, N E 2 5 

Vuhinfua. C 20002 



(.-•TV 







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North had requested him to establish an offshore corporation 
and account? 

A No. I believe that the initiative for that came 
from the --oh, I just remembered the name of the fake Saudi 
prince: Al-Massoudi. 

I believe that that was in that context that he 
reached the decision to do that, and whether at that time Mr. 
North was also involved and making recommendations, I cannot 
be certain about. 

Q Did you have any further dealings with Al-Massoudi 
after these initial contacts? 

A No. 

Q Were the Al-Massoudi transactions and dealings 
conducted solely by Mr. Miller insofar as IBC was concerned? 

A That's correct, although I did see him a couple of 
times later when he C£une in the office. 

Q Do you recall why the fake Saudi prince said that 
he wanted to give money to the contras from the sale of these 
oil contracts? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason that he told you? 

A Well, he said that he had lived in the United 
States, and his son was living in the United States and was 
grateful for everything that the United States had done for 
him and for his son and his family and so on. And he wanted 



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HIUUI REKM«Twa CO.. INC. 
507 C SlTCTl. N E 25 

Vuhincton. DC :00C2 
mil V«&.6«M 







20 



to repay the country in some way, and he was also concerned 
about the spread of Conununism and felt that a contribution to 
aid the Nicaraguan resistance would be a way to express that 
concern. 

Q When did you first meet Colonel North? 

A I believe that I met him at a swearing-in in the 
Indian Treaty Room in the Old Executive Office Building in 
about August of 1984. 

Q Whose swearing-in was it? 

A It was Tambs who was en route to Costa Rica. 
Wait a minute. I'm sorry. It was Ambassador 
Piedra, Alberto Piedra, who was en route to Guatemala. 

Q Who introduced you to Colonel North? 

A At this swearing-in there were several people from 
the Office of Public Diplomacy at the State Department, 
including Ambassador Reich, John Blacken, and maybe others. 
In just meeting and greeting, it was in that context that I 
first shook hands with Mr. North. 

Q Do you recall when your first substantive encounter 
with Mr. North occurred? 

A It could have been a few weeks after that. Perhaps 
September. 

Q Do you recall the substance of that occurrence or 
of that meeting? 

A As I recall it, either Mr. North, Colonel North, 



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HLUH ntroKvua co.. mc 
M7 C Sirtn. N E 2 5 

Waihmina. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



21 



asked to see me or I was asked by someone at the Office of 
Public Diplomacy to contact him in order to discuss public 
affairs programs of the office. 

Q Did you have subsequent dealings with North on that 
matter immediately after that meeting? 

A Several days after, but I can't pinpoint it. After 
that we started seeing each other -- I don't know -- once 
every two weeks or so, we would confer. 

Q What were the purposes of those conferences, to the 
best of your recollection? 

A Coordination of programs, strategies for the public 
diplomacy effort at State Department and their relationship ' 
to the resistance leadership. 

Q So I take it these were public diplomacy efforts 
related to the resistance? 

A Correct. 

Q Were these activities conducted under the auspices 
of your State Department contracts? 

A Yes. 

Q That you held at the time? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Was there a time when you and others at IBC 
began to refer to Colonel North by the name "Green"? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when use of the name "Green" began? 



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HLLEM REPOOTINO CO , INC. 
507 C Su«I. N E 2 ^ 

Washmfioii. C 20002 



A Probably in the summer or fall of 1985. 

Q Did you initiate the use of the name "Green"? Was 
it your idea? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall why you initiated it? 

A Yes, I recall very specifically a conversation with 
Mr. Conrad, Dan Conrad in Mr. Channell's office, because he 
was speaking rather loosely about Colonel North, Colonel 
North, Colonel North. And I said, "Well, I don't think it's 
advisable to refer to Colonel North publicly, openly, " as 
Colonel North because by this time there had been some press 
articles about his involvement with the Nicaraguan resistance. 
And I said, "You should probably call him something else." 
He said, "Well, what do we call him?" I said, "Well, call 
him Green or something." I don't know. I thought Marine, 
Marine uniform, green, and that was it. 

Q Can you just explain briefly, again, why you 
thought it was inadvisable to continue to use North's real 
neune in conversations with Mr. Conrad and others at the 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty? 

A Because the work that he was doing and the work 
that Channell and his group were doing was very sensitive, 
and that revelation of it would be embarrassing to all 
parties . 

Q By the work that th$v we^^a^doing, I take it that 



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lULLOl mH WIWO CO.. MC. 

107 C Sdtti N E 2 5 

VtlhiofUm. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



23 



you're referring to the contra assistance funding network 
that had been established by that time? 

A Correct. 

Q Were you concerned about the legality of Colonel 
North's activities or anyone else's activities in connection 
with that contra assistance network? 

A No. 

Q Were you concerned about the propriety, separate 
and apart from legality, of the contra assistance network 
that was being conducted by that time? 

A No . I think I was concerned primarily about the 
political implications of it, the embarrassment of a dis- 
closure and so on. 

Q Were you concerned about the political implications, 
embarrassment and public disclosure insofar as Colonel North 
was concerned? 

A Insofar as everyone was concerned. 

Q Were you concerned that the public revelation of 
the contra assistance network would be a problem for IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q What problem did you foresee that public disclosure 
of that funding network would cause IBC? 

A Well, it was a sensitive political issue, one that 
had prompted considerable debate in public, in the media, in 
the Congress, and I think that public knowledge of our 



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107 C Scifti. N E 25 

VuhmitoD. D C. 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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association with such an enterprise could be harmful to the 
business . 

Q When you say harmful to the business, do you mean 
that IBC would lose business over the disclosure -- 

A Potentially, yes. 

Q -- of its operation in controversial activities? 

A Yes. 

If I may, I'd like to go back to our initial. Rich 
Miller's and my initial association. When I decided to 
become his consultant — in effect, share offices and work 
with and for him — we felt that it would be a good match, a 
good team because he was a Republican and I was from the 
Democratic side, had a lot of friends in the Democratic 
Party, had done some work for the Democratic Party. And I 
was also later, when we're talking about this period, I felt 
that my personal involvement or attachment to such a cause 
could be harmful to me in a business and a political sense 
for being so closely identified with that cause. 

Q Did you ever express to Miller reservations about 
IBC's participation in the contra assistance funding network? 

A Yes. Many times. 

Q Do you recall at least when some of those reserva- 
tions were expressed? 

A I don't recall dates. I recall periods. That is, 
fairly early on after the Channell relationship was es- 



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w c Succi s E 2 5 

VuhmiToa D C 20002 
(2021 M6-64M 



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'?rf^ 



tablished in the spring of 1985, s'hwrMy thereafter when they 
started getting into the fund-raising mode, I had some 
reservations about that and expressed them to Mr. Miller. 

Q What reservations did you express, to be more 
precise? 

A Well, I wanted to be very certain, first of all, 
that what we were doing was not illegal, and he assured me 
that it was not. He had checked with various parties, I 
believe legal counsel as well, and assured me that it was not. 

Also at the time, it was our understanding that 
whatever moneys were being raised were going for humanitarian 
purposes rather than non-lethal purposes. 
MR. PRECUP: Rather than? 

THE WITNESS: Rather than lethal. I'm sorry. A 
slip. Rather than lethal purposes. And so that was somewhat 
reassuring to me. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q But I take it Mr. Miller assured you that the 
contra assistance funding network had been passed on as 
lawful by some counsel? 

A I had that impression, yes. 

Q Did you ask him which lawyers he had consulted? 

A No. 

Q What else did Mr. Miller tell you on occasions when 
you expressed your reservations about IBC's participation in 



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the contra assistance network? 

A Well, he made the case for the plight of the 
resistance, first of all, saying that they were not getting 
assistance, they were caught in an extremely precarious 
situation where their needs were considerable; that Mr. 
North, Colonel North, had asked for our cooperation. Of 
course, I had been in the room, in his office, when such 
cooperation was requested, so that was not a secret. And 
also that whatever we were doing could be kept from public 
view. And I was persuaded to continue. 

Q Didn't you ask for assurances that the contra 
assistance network could be kept from public view? 

A No. 

Q Were you persuaded that the contra assistance 
network could be kept from public view? 

A No. 

Q But you just decided to continue to take the 
business and professional risk? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you first meet John Roberts? 

A I don ' t remember . 

Q Was it several years ago? 

A No. It was in 19... if I met him. I'm very vague 
about ever having met him. I believe I met him once, perhaps 
after he left the White House. But we had telephone conversa 



_l 



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KUSSIFIED 



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tions prior to that time. 

Q What was the purpose of those telephone conversa- 
tions? 

A Mr. Channell was seeking to get a letter, I believe 
it was a letter, from the President which would endorse his 
fund-raising efforts. 

Q Who initiated the calls between you and Mr. Roberts? 

A Well, Mr. Miller had had conversations with Mr. 
Roberts on behalf of Mr. Channell, or Mr. Channell had had 
conversations with Mr. Roberts, and I did this when the other 
two gentlemen were either not available or something. I was 
pinch-hitting. 

Q I take it this would have been some time after the 
contra assistance network between NEPL and IBC began? 

A I believe it was in the summer, August of 1985, 
when we had our telephone conversations; and when we met, I 
don't know. If we did meet, it was very brief and almost 
social rather than professional. 

Q When did you first meet Channell and Conrad? 

A I believe it was in March or April of 1985, about 
the time of the Nicaraguan refugee dinner. 

Q Did you work with Channell and Conrad in connection 
with the planning for that dinner? 

A I didn't, no. 

Q Outside of any transactions or dealings having to 

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IINCUSSIFIED 



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do with the Nicaraguan refugee dinner, do you recall when you 
first meet Channell and Conrad in a business context? 

A Yes. Mr. Miller, and perhaps indirectly I, did 
some things for them in connection with the Nicaraguan 
refugee dinner. Whether it was just provision of information 
or background or something on Nicaragua, they were beginning 
to get into this as a possible fund-raising vehicle. And I 
don't recall exactly what services were performed. It may 
have just been outlining the issues for them or something. I 
am reall,y very vague on that. 

But shortly thereafter, after the fund-raising 
dinner, Mr. Channell appeared, perhaps accompanied by Mr. 
Conrad, and gave a check to Mr. Miller for services rendered. 
And I can't be certain that that check was for support for 
the refugee dinner or something else, but that was the 
beginning of the relationship. And at that time, he offered 
to provide a monthly retainer. 

Q Does it refresh your recollection at all with 
respect to the timing of that first — I'll refer to it as a 
retainer meeting if I tell you that the refugee fund dinner 
occurred on April 15 of 19857 

A I don't know what you're trying to get me to recall. 

Q Is it possible that that so-called retainer meeting 
occurred before the refugee fund dinner? 

A 



It's possible. 



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Q Would it refresh your recollection as to when that 
retainer meeting occurred if I told you that records received 
by the Committee from your counsel and others indicate that 
you participated in a dinner with Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad, 
Mr. Ramsey and Mr. Miller some time prior to the date of that 
refugee fund dinner. 
A Yes. 

Q Given your indication that your recollection has 
been refreshed somewhat by my recitation of those events, 
when do you now recall that that first retainer meeting with 
Channell and Conrad occurred? 

A Now I'm confused, because I sense that the calendar, 
the period is changed. It could have been earlier — it must 
have been earlier, in February, perhaps. It was in the 
wintertime because I remember people wearing coats. 

Q So I take it it could have been some time in 
February, some time in March or some time in early April 
prior to the refugee fund dinner? 

A Some time in early 1985. 

Q Okay. Do you know whether Channell and Conrad were 
first referred to IBC by John Roberts? 

A I learned that much later. 

Q When did you learn that? 

A Oh, maybe some time in 1986. 

Q Do you recall the context in which you learned that 

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)07 C Screw, NE 2 5 

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HEUSSM 



30 



Roberts had referred Channell and Conrad to you and Mr. 
Miller? 

A It was just a conversation with somebody -- and I 
don't remember with whom — about how Conrad and Channell had 
a relationship with the White House, which predated their 
relationship with IBC. 

Q Now, the Committees have received information in 
making that referral that Roberts referred to IBC as something 
like a White House outside of the White House, or a front for 
the White House on the Nicaraguan issue. Is that a charac- 
terization that you've heard before? 

A I've heard it. It's not what we ever used or 
described our operation as, but I've heard other people say 
that they have used that term. 

Q In what context have other people said that — 

A Only in the context of the Nicaraguan relationship. 

Q Is it to your mind an accurate characterization of 
the work that IBC was doing at the time? 

A Not of all the work that IBC was doing as far as 
the Nicaraguan resistance policy to aid them. It was not a 
White House outside the White House. It was an entity which 
was assisting in the administration's efforts, but I certainly 
wouldn't characterize it as that. 

Q Are you aware of any reason why Roberts or these 
other people who you say have referred to IBC as a front for 



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C ;) 546-«66 



sm^ssiflB 



31 



the White House, or possibly a front for the State Department, 
as to why they would characterize IBC this way? 

A My answer would be sheerly speculative. I don't 
know. 

Q Who set up the dinner to which we've referred 
earlier in early April 1985 with Mr. Ramsey? 

A I don't remember what the date of the dinner was. 
Mr. Chahnell set it up as far as I know. 

Q Did Channell tell you anything about Ramsey prior 
to the dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he tell you? 

A That he was a wealthy Texas, where he was from -- I 
think Wichita Falls, Texas — that he was related somehow to 
the oil business. Not much more than that. A conservative, 
very interested in what was happening in Central America, a 
prospective donor. 

Q What did you understand the purpose of the dinner 
to be? 

A Dinner was for us — well, in a few words, it was 
to get us a contribution from Mr. Ramsey. 

Q A contribution for whom? 

A For Mr. Channell 's organization or organizations. 

Q Was the contribution to Channell 's organization 
going to be a contribution that would be passed on to the 




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SOCSuttt. NE 2 5 

» ihmtioo. D C J0002 
r 2) M«-66M 



resistance? 

A That's what I understood. 

Q Are you aware that the discussion at the dinner 
that evening was tape recorded? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you become aware that the tape recording 
existed? 

A At the time. 

Q At the time. How did you become aware that the 
tape recording was taking place? 

A Well, Mr. Conrad had a habit of recording things. 
He was very business-like and wanted to be very precise about 
everything, and so he often had a tape recorder with him. And 
he put it on the table and said -- didn't say, he just 
started recording. 

Q Did anyone raise a question about the propriety of 
recording the dinner conversation that evening? 

A I think I did. 

Q Did you raise it at the time that Conrad put the 
tape recorder on the table? 

A I think I did. 

Q What do you recall his response to be? 

A I don't recall his response. Not in detail. He 
tape the conversation, so, therefore, he probably said 
something to the effect that, well, it's all right, I'll keep 



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33 



it, and this sort of thing. 

Q Do you recall having reviewed the transcript of 
that tape recording? 

A Yes . 

Q When was that? 

A A week or a couple of weeks thereafter. 

Q Do you recall having made some changes in the 
transcript? 

A I remember editing it somehow, and then sending it 
back or giving it back or something. 

Q What was the purpose of your editing? 

A I don't recall whether it was a combination of 
style or sensitivity about its contents or factual, making 
sure that there were factual statements there. It could have 
been a combination of all three. 

Q Have you had occasion to review that transcript at 
some subsequent time? 

A I've never seen it again. 

Q Do you recall whether Ramsey was shown some 
photographs at the dinner? 

A Yes. 

Q Who showed him photographs? 

A Mr. Miller and myself, maybe Mr. Channell, too. 

Q What were they photographs of? 

A The resistance. 



uMoi ftccipcn 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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Q Were they photographs or slides? 

A Photographs . 

Q What was the purpose of showing resistance photo- 
graphs? 

A To depict the condition under which the resistance 
was living and operating, their need for supplies, equipment. 

Q Where did you obtain the photographs? 

A Some I took myself on a visit to the ceunps in 
February 1985. A camp, not the camps. One camp. I visited 
refugee camps also on that visit. In fact, some of the 
pictures I took in refugee c£unps . And there may have been 
others -- but I don't think — that could have been provided 
by Colonel North. 

X don't recall whether they were all mine or there 
were others there. 

Q Did you at some time in the spring of 1985 assist 
Channell in obtaining a letter from Adolfo Calero authorizing 
Channell to do fund-raising for the FDN? 

A I knew about a request from Channell for such a 
letter from Mr. Calero, but I believe that that was handled 
by Mr. Miller. 

Q Do you recall ever having seen the letter? 

A I may have. 

Q Did you have any involvement in obtaining the 
letter for Channell? 



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A Only in a sense that I knew a letter was being 
requested, and I may have been involved in a phone call or 
saying, "Where's the letter? What's the status of the 
letter? Do you have the draft" or whatever it was. But I 
just -- 

Q Do you recall why Channell requested the letter? 

A Only that it was — I don't recall specifically, 
no; that it was useful for his fund-raising purposes. 

Q Is it fair to say, then, that your understanding 
was that Channell wanted the letter to assist his fund- 
raising for the resistance? 

A Yes. I believe that he wanted to be able to show 
it to prospective donors, and thereby suggest an appreciation 
that the moneys that were being contributed were going to 
their intended purpose, and that he had a close relationship 
with Mr. Calero, and that anyone who contributed would be 
assured of helping the cause. 

Q Do you know whether IBC received any fee from any 
organization or entity in connection with that authorization 
letter? 

A No. 

Q You don ' t know? 

A I know of no such fee for such a letter. 

Q Did there come a time, Mr. Gomez, when NEPL -- and 



I'll use that as the short 



iiMnTK1«^rttnT 



g to the National 



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507 C ScittT, N E 2 5 

VuhmgToQ. D C 20002 



36 



Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty -- began to give 
money to IBC that was intended to be provided for assistance 
to the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A Was there a time when NEPL began to provide money 
to IBC? 

Q Right. 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Do you recall when you first became 
aware of the fact that the money that NEPL was giving to IBC 
was to be used for the resistance? 

MR. PRECUP: Would you repeat that? 
THE WITNESS: Are you asking when? 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I'm just trying to establish a foundation for the 
record as to when you first became aware that NEPL and IBC 
and IC, Inc. were part of a contra assistance funding network. 

A Well, I didn't know about the rest of the so-called 
network, first of all. All I knew about from firsthand 
observation was the provision of contributions to Channell, 
Channell's providing those or parts thereof to IBC and IBC's 
transfer of those to IC, Inc., and instructions from IBC to 
IC, Inc. to disburse them. And when I learned of those 
transfers, I can't pinpoint; some time in mid to fall of 1985. 

Q You mentioned a bit earlier today, I believe, that 
you were with North and Miller when^North asked Miller for 



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IBC's cooperation in this contra assistance network. 

A He asked for our cooperation in assisting with the 
administration's policy. 

Q Did you understand the cooperation that IBC was 
going to provide to be cooperation in the form of funneling 
funds to the contras? 

A At a later point, yes. 

Q when was the initial meeting that you described at 
which North asked for your cooperation in the administration's 
efforts .in Nicaragua? 

A Oh, that was early fall of 1984. 

Q Early fall of 1984. 

A Yes, when I first started dealing with him on a 
regular basis. 

Q So I take it that at that time you understood that 
the cooperation he was asking was cooperation in connection 
with your activities under the State Department contracts 
then existing at the time? 

A Correct, and beyond the State Department contracts. 
That is, doing things that necessarily were not covered by 
the State Department contract, like just the extra effort 
that it would take. 

Q What kinds of extra effort or activities did you 
understand North to contemplate, and did you eventually 
perform with respect to his request for cooperation? 



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A Well, sometimes rather than requests coming from 
the State Department to write something or to arrange a 
meeting or something, he would ask us to do it directly. And 
it's that kind of cooperation that I was referring to. 

Q Did you perform those services under the auspices 
of your State Department contracts, or did you perform those 
services pro bono for North? 

A It was pretty much pro bono sometimes. I can 
relate one specific instance where he said that he wanted to 
have some stickers or flyers printed for later distribution 
inside Nicaragua, and our reaction was, well, we don't do 
that. We never talked about it again. He asked us to do it, 
and we agreed that, well, we'll look at it or something to 
that effect. 

Q Okay. All right. 

A But that's the kind of thing, a request that he 
might make of us. 

Q Do you recall the circumstances under which you 
first became aware that NEPL and IBC were engaged in a contra 
assistance network? 

A I don't remember the exact circumstances or the 
date, but I can conclude that it had to be before the John 
Ramsey meeting. 

Q Where do you place the John Ramsey meeting? 

A Where do I place iXZ. 

1 



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\mmm 



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Q 
A 
Q 
A 



■84, 



Right . 
In time? 
Time-wise . 

Early '86 — no, sorry. Early '85 or maybe late 
I really can't be certain. 
Q Who told you about this funneling of funds that was 
either going on or about to go on among NEPL, IBC and IC, 
Inc. ? 

A Mr. Miller. 

Q . Do you recall what he told you? 

A Well, he explained what the relationship was and 
how it was to work; that is, that Channell would be obtaining 
contributions; that they would be sent to us and we would 
send them to IC, Inc. for disbursement. 

Q How, to your knowledge, did IBC segregate payments 
relating to contra assistance from NEPL from payments for 
fees for services and expenditures from NEPL? 

A I don't know. I was not involved in administrative 
matters . 

Do you understand what I'm getting at? 



Q 
A 

Q 
A 
Q 



No. 

You should state yes or no simply for the record. 

I said no. 

Okay. During this period of contra assistance,- I 



understand from your testimony and that of others NEPL also 



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1U 



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had a relationship with IBC in which it paid IBC a retainer 
for services and expenditures made on NEPL's behalf that 
didn't necessarily relate to contra assistance or the contra 
funding network. 

A Correct. 

Q I'm sorry. I probably haven't been terribly clear. 
But what I'm trying to get at is whether you're aware of how 
IBC segregated the payments from NEPL relating to contra 
assistance from those NEPL payments that related to retainer 
or other payments for services and expenditures made by IBC 
on NEPL's behalf. 

A Well, I know that they were segregated, that we 
received a monthly retainer from Channell organizations, and 
that we were reimbursed for some expenses from Channell. 

I believe that the contributions to the resistance 
cause were handled entirely separately from any retainer 
matter or retainer-related matter. 

Q Do you know who determined the timing and eunount of 
payments from NEPL to IBC for contra assistance? 

A I assume Mr. Channell did. 

Q Do you know or that's just an assumption that you 
made based on circumstances over time? 

A It's based on circumstances over time. When he had 
money, he made it available. That's my impression. 

Q Do you know whether Colonel North ever made a 



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\l«tm«8 



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request of Channell or of someone at IBC for certain contra 
assistance payments? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he make such requests or give such instruction? 

A I would characterize his communications as requests 
that he passed on to Mr. Miller or sometimes directly to Mr. 
Channell . 

Q How did you become aware of North's request for 
contra assistance payments? 

A Through Mr. Miller. 

Q Do you recall any specific incidents of North 
requests for contra assistance payments? 

A Yes. One in his office, and again, I am vague on 
the timing. But he seemed extremely frantic at the time, 
nervous, and he said that he had to pay -- he needed some 
money in order to pay an airplane dealer or supplier some- 
where. I had the impression it was on the West Coast. And I 
don't remember the amount of money, but it was considerable, 
perhaps — this is a guess -- three or four hundred thousand 
dollars . 

Q Did North speak to you? 

A Mr. Miller and I were both in his office when this 
was relayed to us. 

Q Do you recall the purpose of your meting with North 
in his office at that time? ll/'-{i''i rtC^'O^i Ij'f^ 



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WfUSt® 



42 



A No. General discussion of the status of the 
resistance, where are they going, what kind of programs are 
they involved in, what are their needs and so on. 

Q Do you recall when that meeting took place? 

A It had to be in 1986. It seems like it might have 
been in the earlier half of '86, perhaps the spring. 

Q Was anyone else in North's office with you at the 
time of that meeting and that request? 

A I don't believe so. 

MR. PRECUP: Other than Mr. Miller. 

THE WITNESS: Other than Mr. Miller, yes. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Were there any other instances in which you can 
recall that Mr. North conveyed a request for contra assistance 
money to either Miller or Channell or to yourself? 

A I remember other instances of which requests had 
come from Mr. North, either to Mr. Miller or to Mr. Channell 
directly because they spoke directly with each other some- 
times. And I learned about that through Mr. Miller. But I 
can't identify any specific need or amount or time, only that 
most of it was in the period from spring to summer of '86. 

Q To your knowledge, what — 

A Maybe winter to the summer is better. 



Q 
A 



Of 1986. 
1986. 



«NClASSiFB 



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S0^ 



43 



Q To your knowledge, who other than you and Mr. 
Miller at IBC was involved with the contra funding network? 

A Who else at IBC? 

Q Yes. 

A No one . 

Q Did anyone else at IBC have knowledge of the contra 
funding network? 

A No, not at the time. Only that an administrative 
assistance sometimes was involved in handling money, checks. 

Q , To your knowledge, who at NEPL had information 
about or was involved with the contra funding network? 

A Well, certainly all of the fund-raisers knew what 
they were raising money for, and whether they knew of the 
precise disposition of the contributions, I have no way of 
knowing. 

Q Can you state for the record who the fund-raisers 
at NEPL were at the time that you believe would have knowledge 
of the purpose of the fund-raising that they were doing? 

A Cliff Smith, who had a title; I believe it was 
Director of Political Affairs, something like that, at NEPL. 
^■■■^■■■^^ was another fund-raiser. Jane McLaughlin. 
David Lane. 



What about 



Littledale? 



A Oh, maybe that was the name. I'm confusing names. 
HI is somebody else. ^rrf9B Littledale, 



yes . 



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I 'm sorry. 

Q So I take it that the name, ^HBH^BH^^I^ should 
be struck from — 

A 4|mm^|Hp|^ should be — if there is such a 
person--should not be involved. 1 may know a flBHlHHHHB^ 
from some place. 

Q That was my concern. To your knowledge, what did 
IBC do with the contra-assistance payments? 

A They were received from NEPL and transferred to IC, 
Inc. where they remained until such time as Mr. North, 
Colonel North, instructed where they were to go. And I used 
the word "instruction" deliberately because neither Mr. 
Miller nor myself would ever know how to dispose of the 
resources, other than to take it, as our own initiative, and 
to do something with it. 

Q Whose idea was it to transfer the funds from IBC to 
IC, Inc.? 

A I believe it was Mr. Miller's. 

Q Do you recall why he decided to put IC, Inc. into 
the contra-funding picture? 

A Because it existed. Because it was convenient and 
fast. I, at the time, argued against it. I said why do we 
have to be a vehicle for NEPL? 

Q Was there any reason why IBC itself didn't retain 
the money for distribution at Colonel North's instruction? 



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MNCUSSiFlED 



45 



A I don't know. 

Q Did Mr. Miller ever express to you his preference 
for transferring the funds to IC, Inc. prior to ultimate 
distribution? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he tell you about that? 

A I believe it had to do with the tax implications of 
handling large sums of money inside the United States. Also, 
for reasons of privacy, and convenience. 

Q . Can you be a little more precise about his concern 
about the tax implications of receiving large sums of money? 

A Well, again, large sums of money would be handled 
by IBC, and IBC would have to explain it some time, or 
another, where the money came from and where it went. 

Q But IBC handled those large sums of money anyhow, 
right? 

A Yes, and he explained to me that this was considered 
a "pass-through," was the word he used. A pass-through, 
which would mean that the monies would not be taxable. In 
other words, they were not for our benefit. 

Q Would it not have been the same pass-through if the 
money had just gone into IBC, and then been ultimately 
distributed to the recipients at the direction of Colonel 
North? 

A That's a supposition. 



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art46 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



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■u-u ntnmwo Co.. mc 
107CSu«i. NE 2 5 

WaihiDfion. C 20002 



Q Did you ask him why one pass-through was different 
than the other? 

A Yes. I probably did. 

Q Do you recall what he responded? 

A Oh, again, just the saune explanation. 

Q Did Miller tell you that he received any legal 
advice in connection with the pass-through distinction 

A Yes. I believe he did. I believe he received 
accounting advice, tax advice, perhaps more than legal. 

Q '^ Did the accounting advice, to your knowledge, come 
from IBC's accountants? 

A I believe so. 

Q Were those accountants — 

A It could have been somebody else. 1 don't know. 

Q You don't know? 

A Mo. 

Q Okay. Did Miller explain to you, with any preci- 
sion, his concern for privacy that would be fulfilled if the 
money was passed to IC, Inc. rather than distributed straight 
out of IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q Could you tell us a bit about what he said with 
respect to privacy. 

A I can't say much more than what I already said, 
only that that was a concern, and that this particular bank 



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507CSOTti. NE 2 5 

VuhmiTon. D C- 20002 





47 



was used to handling transfers in various directions, 
quickly, and, privately. 

Q You mentioned a moment ago, that it was Colonel 
North who directed the ultimate distribution of the funds 
from IC, Inc. Did Colonel North also determine--! take it, 
then--the timing and the amount of funds that would go to 
particular recipients? 

A I have no precise knowledge of any amounts involved, 
at any time. As far as the timing, yes. I sensed, as I 
related- to you earlier, that there was urgency at various 
times, great concern to both raise and transfer funds. 

Q All right. How was the ultimate distribution 
accomplished? 

A My understanding is that Colonel North communicated 
with Mr. Miller, either personally, or by telephone, or some 
way, a request or an instruction to transfer whatever monies 
might be available--I cannot say a specific sum because it 
would be a function of how much was available, to a certain 
entity. That is all I know. Where the account numbers, or 
the naimes of the organizations ceune from, I have no idea. 

Well, they obviously came from Colonel North, but I 
do not know about the steps involved in Mr. Miller's getting 
that information in order to carry out that step. 

Q When you said that the particular names of the 
recipients and the account numbers obviously came from 



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MIL1£* HtKlKTma CO.. INC 
S07 C Su«t. N E 25 

Wuhmiioa. C. 20001 



wnssn 






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Colonel North, how do you know that? 

A Because to my knowledge, Mr. Miller was dealing 
with no one else on this matter. 

Q Do you know for a fact that Miller didn't instigate, 
or initiate the names and account numbers of the ultimate 
recipients? 

A I don't know for a fact, no. 

Q Did Miller ever tell you that North gave him the 
names and account numbers of the ultimate recipients? 

A , No. I said my understanding was that this informa- 
tion came from Colonel North. In fact I believe Mr. Miller 
told me that Colonel North had provided the information for 
the transfers. 

Q Right. So the basis for your understanding was 
that Miller had told you that North was giving him this 
information? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. That North was also giving him the 
instructions or direction for the ultimate distribution. Is 
that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Upon receipt of the instructions from Colonel North 
to distribute the money from IC, Inc., or, I take it there 
were one or two instances in which money was distributed 
directly from IBC, what did IBC then do, internally, to 



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H>x£K nrCKnta co.. inc. 

>07 C Sum, .N E 25 

Wuhiniim. D C 20002 



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^ElASSlfe 



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accomplish the transaction? 

A Sent Telexes, or, in some instances, a written 
memorandum to the bank. 

Q When you say "to the bank," for clarification of 
the record, you're referring to the bank in the Cayman 
Islands? 

A Correct. 

Q That was the bank at which IC, Inc. was holding 
accounts? 

A . Correct. 

Q So there were actually instructions to the bank 
with respect to IC, Inc. accounts to which the money had been 
transferred? 

A Correct. 

MR. KAPLAN; I am going to ask the reporter to mark 
as the next-numbered exhibit a composite exhibit of a Telex 
and a letter from yourself and Mr. Miller to a Mr. David 
Piesing in the Cayman Islands. 

[Whereupon, the document 
referred to was marked 
Gomez Deposition Exhibit 
No. 4 for identification.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I am not concerned about the specifics of this 
particular transaction. You'll note that the first two pages 



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MIUIII ItErOOTINa CO . MC. 
507 C Sutrt. N E 2 5 

Wuhiniron. D C. 20002 



of the exhibit are the Telex, and the next two pages are a 
letter signed by you and Mr. Miller, that confirms the Telex. 

All I want to ask you is whether you can identify 
Exhibit 4, that has been passed on to you by the reporter. 

A Is this all Exhibit 4? 

Q Right. 

A Well, the Telex I don't recall ever seeing, nor do 
I ever recall seeing the term "freedom network" used. This 
is the first time I've seen this Telex. 

Q . What about the attached letter that's pages 3 and 4 
of Exhibit 4? 

A Yes. I signed this letter. 

Q So I take it you have seen that letter? 

A Well, I have to qualify the word "seen." 

Q Is that your signature? 

A That's my signature. 

Q Did you typically review letters that were put in 
front of you for your signature? 

A Not carefully. I glanced at them, and, at Mr. 
Miller's request, signed them, and that was it. 

Q Is this the typical method which you described just 
a bit earlier in your testimony as to how distributions of 
money from IC, Inc. were accomplished upon receipt of 
instructions from Colonel North? 

A Yes. iiM/^j A^n^nrr^. 




Hi ^mm 



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yiU^K KEKXmMO CO . INC. 
507 C Stictl. N E 25 

Vuhinium. D C i0002 




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Q To your knowledge, did Channell or Conrad have any 
knowledge of the ultimate disposition or distribution of the 
contra-assistance funds? 

A I don't know to what extent they were aware of the 
final disposition. 

Q You mentioned, a bit earlier, that you discussed 
with Miller at least the propriety of the contra-funding 
network in which IBC became involved, and you mentioned some 
of the substance of those conversations. 

MR. KAPLAN: I am going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Deposition Exhibit No. 5 an exhibit provided to us, again, 
by your counsel, which is a typewritten exhibit entitled 
"Statutory Provisions on Contra Aid." 

[Whereupon, the document 
referred to was marked 
Gomez Deposition Exhibit 
No. 5 for identification.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Do you recognize this exhibit? 
A I've never seen it before. 

Q Did you provide this exhibit to Mr. Miller? 
A No. I don't believe so. 

Q Is it possible that you provided a copy of Exhibit 
No. 5 to Mr. Miller? 

A I don't remember. As far as I'm concerned, thLa-is 



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y«x£R ntfotnma co.. mc. 
507 C Sueei. NE 25 

Wuhmpoa. C 20002 
(1021 M(i."" 



MlASSf' 



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the first time I've seen this document. 

Q To your knowledge, was anyone else aware, anyone 
else at the NSC, aware of the contra-assistance network that 
was being conducted by NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. and Colonel North? 

A I cannot say, for certain, whether anyone else was. 

Q Do you have any information, or inkling, that there 
were others at the NSC who were knowledgeable of your network? 

A Colonel North's secretary. 

Q That's Fawn Hall, I take it? 

A ^ Fawn Hall. And that's merely supposition on my 
part because she was involved in messages, and meetings. 

Q Did you yourself ever speak with Ms. Hall about any 
items of detail relating to the contra-assistance network? 

A No. 

Q Are you aware as to whether Rich Miller spoke with 
Ms. Hall about such details? 

A No. 

Q But I take it that IBC received phone calls from 
Ms. Hall relating either details or instructions, or messages 
from North relating to the contra-assistance network, is that 
right? 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of anyone else at the White House who 
was knowledgeable about the contra-assistance network? 

A Well, I'm sorry, but you cojitinue to use the term 



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utjjjt nm nima co.. mc 
507 C Sucti. N E 2 5 

Vuhmpon D C 10002 




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"network" and-- 

Q Right. That's correct. By using the term-- 

A --that suggests a larger enterprise, and what I 
know about is IBC, NEPL, and Colonel North's office. 

Q When I use the phrase '"contra-assistance network" 
in the context of this deposition, what I'm referring to is 
the NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc., and North contra-assistance — 

A Network. 

MR. PRECUP: Activities. 

MR. KAPLAN: --activities, that were being conducted 
between the spring of 1985 and the fall of 1986. 

THE WITNESS: There were other people in the White 
House who were aware of the fund raising, but I do not 
believe were aware of the disposition of the funds. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Who, to your knowledge, at the White House, was 
aware of the fund-raising aspect? 

A Well, there were a number of people who par- 
ticipated in briefings that were related to the fund-raising 
effort, including Mary Masing who was then in the Office of 
Public Affairs, and her predecessor, Linda Chavez. Pat 
Buchanan. Linas Kojelis, also in Public Affairs. Public 
Liaison. I'm sorry. That should be Office of Public 
Liaison. And other names escape me at this time, but there 
are surely others who, at one time or another, learned of, or 



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vLLn ntromma co.. mc. 
507 c Sci«t. N E 25 

Wai)ua(ion. O C i0002 




54 



were involved in the briefings. 

Q Can you simply describe, to create a more clear 
record, what you mean when you say that there were persons at 
the White House who were aware of the fund-raising aspect of 
the NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. network? 

A Well, the briefings I believe — I never made a 
presentation myself, or acted on behalf of NEPL, or Mr. 
Channell, or any of those people with respect to a briefing 
at the White House. So what I'm relating to you is, again, 
something that I've gathered over time through a series of 
conversations . 

But the procedure was to have a briefing at the 
White House wherein Colonel North would make his presentation 
about the plight of the resistance, and then the guests would 
repair to the Hay-Adams Hotel where they would be solicited. 

I believe that in the context of arranging for the 
briefings, it was related to persons involved in facilitating 
those briefings, that this was part of a fund-raising effort, 
in order to justify the trouble. That this was part of the 
outside-assistance efforts that were being undertaken by a 
variety of groups . 

I'm sure that in one or more instances, this case 
was made very clear to people, and so far as it related to 
fund raising for advertising, announcements, the so-called 
Central American Freedojn Brpgf^in'.wljittJlfVas a rather major 



'wmi f{gSiai!T^ 



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HUJM MVOITTWa CO.. MC. 
507 C Saect, N E 25 

Vutunfuio. C 2000: 
"nJl M6-MM 



DEUSSl® 



55 



undertaking on the part of the NEPL group and IBC. 

So I believe that people knew about the ultimate 
purpose of those meetings at least, if not others. 

Q To your knowledge, was Elliott Abrams aware of the 
contra-funding network that we've been discussing? 

A No . He was aware of the fund raising but not of 
the disposition because he participated in the briefing at 
the White House, and spoke to the assembled group, but I think 
he did so ingenuously, or unwittingly. If there was any 
question of fund raising, and so on, he was not a party to it. 

Q Is it fair to say, Mr. Gomez, that those persons who 
were aware of the fund-raising aspect of the network knew that 
they were participating in such fund raising by their 
presence, or presentations at the White House briefings that 
were set up by NEPL and IBC? 

A People at the White House were aware of the fund 
raising? 

Q Yes . 

A I have no direct knowledge that they were aware. 
It is an assumption, on my part, that in — whoever explained 
to them the reasons for having such a briefing, explained 
that these persons were contributors to a particular program, 
or cause. 

Q The point I'm just trying to pin down is with 
respect to your knowledge or understanding. Did you under- 



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WLixn nromvia co.. mc. 
)07 C Sum. N E 2 5 

Tuluinton, D C !0002 



uimSi 



56 



stand that the persons at the White House who participated in 
the briefings for NEPL contributors, or potential con- 
tributors, knew at the time that they were participating in a 
fund-raising endeavor? 

A I had no first-hand knowledge of that. 

Q But I take it that is your understanding? 

A It's my understanding that-- 

Q I'm going to ask you on what you base that under- 
standing. 

A ■ Conversations with people about the efforts to 
arrange the meetings. 

Q When you say "conversations with people, " are you 
referring to people at the White House? 

A No. I'm referring to Mr. Miller and Mr. Channell. 

Q Are you referring to conversations with Channell 
and Miller about their conversations with persons at the White 
House? 

A Yes . 

Q On the basis of those conversations, and the 
circumstances, you arrived at an understanding that the 
persons in the White House who participated in these NEPL 
briefings for contributors, or potential contributors, knew 
that they were engaging in some fund-raising endeavor? 

A Yes. Some of them. I could not say all of them. 

Q Could you say which ones you believed were know- 



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■kxut nromma co . inc. 
!07 C Stretr. N E 2 5 

'Xuhwftoa. D C :000i 




oirlb 



57 



ledgeable participants in a fund-raising endeavor? 

A I could not be specific about it because it's 
second- and third-hand information. It's just my general 
sense is that it was understood that these people were raising 
money to assist the advancement of the Administration's 
policies in Central America. 

Q Did you ever participate in preparing any memoranda 
that were circulated within the White House arranging these 
briefings for NEPL contributors or potential contributors? 

A - I may have seen a memorandum to that effect written 
by Colonel North, or someone in the Office of Public Liaison, 
but do not recall originating, drafting, contributing to any 
such memoranda. 

Q Could you describe any participation that you had 
in arranging the White House briefings that occurred in June 
1985, October 1985, November 1985, January 1986, among others. 

A Yes. I held telephone conversations with Colonel 
North, probably attended a meeting or two, maybe more, with 
him in that regard, on behalf either of IBC, Mr. Miller or 
Mr. Channell. But this had to do with coordinating dates, 
making sure that invitations to attend were sent out on a 
timely basis, that sort of thing. My relationship with 
respect to those briefings changed over time. My sense is 
that at the outset, Mr. Miller and I worked closely with 
Colonel North arranging for those briefings, and then, as 



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■•XEK RETORTINa CO.. MC. 
i07 C Stmt. N E 25 

Wuhmiton. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



58 



experience was acquired, both Mr. Miller and I took a back 
seat, and we were told when the briefings were going to be 
arranged. 

Q To whom did you take a back seat? 

A I believe to Mr. Channell. He, or Mr. Conrad, 
began dealing more directly with Colonel North. 

Q Were you involved in the participation of the 
President in the January 1986 briefing? 

A I was involved to the extent that I knew that a 
request .had been made of him to participate. 

Q who made that request? 

A Well, Mr. Channell originated the request. He 
always wanted the President to endorse his progratms because it 
was useful for his fund-raising purposes. 

Q Did you help to arrange the President's presence in 
any fashion? 

A No. I attended the briefing. I was told when it 
was, where it was, and I went there. 

Q Were you aware that certain NEPL contributors had 
one-on-one meetings with the President over time? 

A I have heard since that time, that such meetings 
took place. 

Q Did you have any involvement in arranging those 
meetings with the President? 

A No. 



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■LLIR REPOOTINa CO . INC. 

)07 C Sircti. N E 2 5 

<rishm|iixi. C 20002 



UNClASSIfiEO 



59 



Q Were you aware that North had one-on-one meetings 
with certain NEPL contributors over time? 

A I learned shortly after--I don't know how many 
weeks or days--that North had individual meetings with 
contributors or potential contributors. 

Q Did you help to arrange any of those meetings? 

A No. 

MR. KAPLAN: This probably is a good time to break. 
[Brief recess . ] 
■. BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q We were talking, right before we took a break, about 
various white House briefings that were arranged, at least in 
part by IBC for NEPL contributors or potential contributors. 

Did there come a time when an individual named 
David Fischer began to perform services for IBC and NEPL in 
arranging these White House briefings? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when that association began? 

A It'd be in the fall of 1985. 

Q when did you first meet Mr. Fischer? 

A The fall of 1985. 

Q what was your understanding as to the services that 
were to be performed by Fischer for NEPL and/or IBC? 

A Well, initially, I understood that his respon- 
sibilities were to lie almost exclusively in relationships 



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mu-iK RCPOimNo co.. wc. 

507 C Suen. N E 25 

WaihutTon. O C 20002 
(202 1 V46-6666 



UNCLASSIFIED 



60 



with the white House, that is, assisting and obtaining 
letters, obtaining appointments, and access, basically. 

Q On what did you base that understanding? 

A And also counsel on how the white House would 
behave or react to certain proposals--you know — the whole 
business. I'm sorry. 

Q On what did you base that understanding? 

A Conversations with Mr. Miller and with Mr. Fischer. 

Q Were you involved in the initial dealings, if you 
will, among IBC and Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano, with respect 
to the development of a professional relationship? 

A I recall attending one meeting, or a part of one 
meeting at our offices with Mr. Artiano, Mr. Fischer, and Mr. 
Miller. 

Q Did this meeting occur at a time prior to the 
formalization of the business relationship? 

A Yes. It must have been around November of December 
of 1985. 

Q Do you recall the substance of that meeting? 

A No . I don't think I stayed for the entire meeting. 
I greeted them. Or the meeting had been very brief. I 
remember discussing the responsibilities, what the organiza- 
tion was looking for. Fees. But that's about all. 

Q When did you first meet Artiano? 

A I believe at that time. 



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ULLSt RcromNa co . mc. 
JOTCSirett, NE 25 

VutuDftoa. DC 20002 



*m»9 



61 



Q Do you recall the basis for the fees that were to 
be charged by Fischer and Artiano for performing these White 
House access functions? 

A There was discussion of a monthly retainer. There 
was also a discussion of a fee per meeting with the President, 
or involving the President, but I don't recall the specifics, 
that is, aunounts of money. 

Q When do you recall the discussion of the fee per 
meeting with the President? 

A That was fairly early on, November, December of 
1985. 

Q Do you understand that that became the basis of the 
payments for the business relationship between Fischer, 
Artiano and IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall what the amount of fees charged were? 

A No. I only recall discussion by these men of 
interests or concerns of Mr. Channell to pay whatever it 
took, or something to that effect, and there was some talk 
that he was prepared to offer as much as--a retainer as much 
as $25,000 a month, and for what period I don't know. When 
it was starting, I don't know. 

Q Was there a discussion also as to what amount 
Channell would pay per meeting arranged with the President or 
involving the President? 



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)07 C 5tre«. N E 2 5 

Wuhinfioa. D C 20002 



«UiS«8 



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A My memory is sketchy on that and perhaps clouded, 
also, because of news accounts since that time, and so I 
couldn't give a specific response. I remember--well , what I 
just said. 

Q Is it fair to say, then, that your understanding is 
that Fischer and Artiano were being paid on the basis of 
meetings arranged with the President, or which involved the 
President? 

A That's only partially true. I know that payment in 
relatiORship to meetings was discussed and agreed upon. 
Whether that was--there were other duties to be performed, I 
think is rather clear. That it was not based solely on 
meetings with the President. 

Q But at least a portion of the fees that they were 
paid was based on the number of meetings that they could 
successfully arrange with the President, or involving the 
President? 

A I don't know what the proportion is, or the portion. 

Q But that was your understanding? 

A That was my understanding. 

Q Your understanding was based on conversations with 
Miller? 

A With Miller, and parts of meetings that I attended, 
or a meeting. I believe I attended one meeting with Mr. 
Fischer and Mr. Artiano, and I left early. 

iiiim Aooinrn 



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wLLDi mnm ima co.. mc 

i07 C Stren. N E 2 5 

VuhuifTon. DC 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



63 



Q That meeting, I take it then, is the one you 
described earlier involving Fischer, Artiano, Miller, 
Channell, and yourself? 

A Yes. Well, Channel!, I don't believe was there. i 
don't recall ever being in a meeting with Axtiano, Channell, 
Miller and Fischer. 

Q Okay. 

A And as I recall, this meeting was exploratory. 
They were finding, looking for a mechanism, and establishing 
relationships . 

Q Was there any subsequent conversations that you had 
with anybody, which confirmed the understanding that you had, 
that Fischer and Artiano were being paid, at least in part, 
based on the number of presidential meetings that they could 
arrange? 

A Did I attend any of the meetings in that regard or 
any other — 

Q Well, did you have any other conversations which 
confirmed that understanding? 

A I heard references to payment for meetings in the 
context of payment for other services as well. 

Q Who made those references? 

A Channell. Miller. Fischer. 

Q I take it that the references of payments for 
meetings were indeed references that led you to believe, or 



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confirmed your understanding that Fischer and Artiano were 
being paid to arrange meetings with the President, or that 
involved the President? 

A Among other things . 

Q Okay. Did you, Mr. Gomez, have any involvement or 
knowledge of solicitations of money intended for the purchase 
of lethal supplies for the contras? 

A You asked--again. 

MR. PRECUP: Would you repeat the question, please. 
MR. KAPLAN: Sure. I asked whether you had any 
involvement in, or have any knowledge of solicitations 
intended for the purchase of lethal supplies for the contras . 

THE WITNESS: I don't recall any solicitations 
specifically for lethal weapons. I do recall some con- 
tributors mentioning that they would like to contribute to 
purchase lethal weapons, but that was not in the context of a 
solicitation. It was their expression of their — the intensity 
of their desire to do something to help the cause. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q To which contributors are you referring? 

A Well, I believe Mr. Raunsey may have mentioned once 
buying--or providing money to buy a surface-to-air missile. 

Q Anyone else? 

A I can't remember some of the names of people that I 
may have sat next to at a dinner, or something, who expressed 

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something to that effect. 

Q Were you involved in any way with the solicitation 
of Mr. Rainsey in June of 1985, which resulted in his payment 
of $10,000 to an account controlled by Alfonso Rubelo? 

A No . I wasn't involved. I know that he was in 
touch with Mr. Miller and Mr. Channell around that time. I 
also had a sense that Mr. Rubelo had some particular needs at 
that time, but I was not involved. 

Q Do you know anything about a solicitation of Nelson 
Bunker Hunt that occurred in September of 1985 in Dallas? 

A I only heard that Mr. Channell and perhaps others 
of his group were going to Dallas. 

Q Did you hear anything about what happened in Dallas? 

A I believe Mr. Calero was going to be there. I 
believe that Mr. Hunt was having his own event of some kind, 
that somehow Mr. Channell and/or Mr. Calero were going to 
participate in, but that's the extent of my knowledge. 

Q Were you ever asked to help prepare a list of arms, 
or any other lethal supplies for use in solicitations of 
particular contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you describe your participation in those 
activities . 

A Yes. Mr. Channell told us--Mr. Miller and myself-- 
that a lot of the contributojrs wa^^tgd to have a sense of the 



tne contriDutors wa{^tea 

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equivalent of what their contributions might mean in terms of 
hardware. They wanted to be assured that if they gave 
$25,000 that might be enough to buy x, y, or z . And so we 
were asked to try to attach some dollar cunounts to certain 
weaponry . 

I either received a sheet of paper that had such 
weapons and amounts — things like--! mean, maybe they weren't 
just weapons or lethal equipment, but also boots, and so on. 
I don't recall what was on the list. 

Q . From whom did you receive that list? 

A I believe it was from Colonel North. 

Q Did you request the list from North? 

A Probably. 

Q Was North aware, to your knowledge, that the list 
was going to be used in fund raising by NEPL, or others? 

A I believe he was. 

Q Do you recall when the request to North was made, 
or when he provided that list to you? 

A It seems like the spring of '86, or winter of '86. 

Q Okay. Are you aware of any other arms lists, or 
lethal-supply purchase lists that were created during your 
time at IBC? 

A No . I believe that's the only one. 

Q What did you do with the list that you received from 
North? 



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A Gave it to Mr. Miller. 

Q Do you know what Miller did with the list? 

A I presume he gave it to Mr. Channell. I was caught 
in the middle on this. The request for such a list, I 
understand, had been made to Mr. Miller, and he asked me to 
either call North and find out what I could get, and I 
believe he was out of town, or otherwise unavailable, and so 
I got involved at that stage. 

Q Did you ever hear from anybody the results of the 
solicitation of Nelson Bunker Hunt that took place in Dallas 
in September 1985? 

A I remember some discussion about Bunker Hunt having 
financial difficulties, and I had read in the paper at the 
time about his silver problems, and that there was some 
disappointment regarding the fruitfulness of that visit to 
Dallas . 

Q Were you ever in North's office when he made a call 

to Hunt? 

A I can't say for certain that I was not. I do recall 
one time in his office, at least once, where he called 
somebody, someone whose name I would remember--recognize, not 
remember — and I can't say for certain that that was Mr. Hunt. 

Q Did you participate at all in any solicitation of 



funds from Barbara Newington? 



No. 



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Q Did you participate at all in any solicitation of 
funds from William O'Boyle? 

A No. 

Q Did you participate at all on any solicitation of 
funds from Ellen Garwood? 

A No. 

Q Did you participate at all in any solicitation of 
funds from Fred Sacher? 

A Yes . 

Q - All right. Can you describe your participation in 
the solicitation of Mr. Sacher. 

A All right. I had met Mr. Sacher in one of the 
briefings and we sat next to each--or at one of the dinners. 
We sat next to each other, and he was, expressed his great 
concern about the media, and how the media were portraying 
events in Central America. 

Later, I heard from either, directly from Mr. 
Channell, or through Mr. Miller from Mr. Channell, that Mr. 
Sacher was interested in contributing to a public-information 
effort. 

Shortly thereafter, Mr. Channell asked me to put 
together some thoughts on a kind of a progrsun which could be 
carried out in the United States to achieve more--a better 
understanding of the situation of the resistance, and the 
nature of the Sandinista regime, which I did. I prepared it. 

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I believe my first draft, they didn't like, so they 
asked me to change it, and it became bigger. They forwarded 
it to him and he sent it back, or gave them some comments, 
and then, eventually, there was a piece of paper on which a 
solicitation for contributions would be based. 

That led to a subsequent dinner, a briefing first 
and then a dinner, I believe, at which solicitations were 
made for that very program, and that was in effect the 
beginning of the program. 

And I do not recall soliciting. I recall par- 
ticipating in the preparation of the program, or designing an 
information program, and justifying the costs, and the nature 
of the program. But I don't recall exactly where--wait. 
There was a dinner with Sacher, I believe at the Hay-Adams. 

Q Do you recall when that dinner occurred? 

A Oh, my gosh. 

Q Was it some time during the fall of 1985? 

A It had to be in the fall, but more precise than 
that, I know it was cold, it could have been November, and I 
know that it also precedes the January meeting at the White 
House at which the President spoke, because that was really 
the kickoff of the whole effort. 

Q Right. 

A And at that time, Mr. Channell, at the dinner, Mr. 
Channell made a pretty hard pitch for a lot of money. I 

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forget the amount but it was over a million dollars. 

Q Do you recall what the result of Mr. Channell's 
pitch was? 

A I don't remember whether he agreed to give something 
that night, or whether he was going to sleep on it, and they 
were going to meet again the next day. I believe the latter 
is what actually happened. And whether he even got a 
commitment the next day, I don't know. My sense is that they 
continued to deal with each other by telephone after that- 

Q . Do you recall a phone conversation or a meeting with 
North in September of 1985 in which Mr. Sacher was discussed? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us what your recollection is of the 
substance of that conversation. 

A I believe Mr. Channell may have been in the room--i 
can't be certain — and I believe that he asked Mr. North to 
contact Sacher directly, Mr. Sacher directly, by telephone, to 
make a case to him. 

Q where did the meeting take place? 

A I believe it was in North's office. 

Q Okay. Do you recall having told North that Sacher 
approaches $500,000? 

A Me telling North? 

Q Yes. 

MR. PRECUP: Approaches? 



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THE WITNESS: Approaches? 
MR. KAPLAN: Right. 

THE WITNESS: What do you mean? That his contribu- 
tion could be that amount? 

MR. KAPLAN: Right. 

THE WITNESS: I don't recall it but it's possible. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Do you recall having discussed with North — 
A I'm sorry. 
Q • Go ahead. 

A Mr. Channell may have described Mr. Sacher's 
contribution potential to me, and I was relaying that to 
Colonel North. 

Q Do you recall a conversation with North in which 
Sacher was discussed also in the context of Cable News 
Network, or "Nightline" or "20/20", and other television 
prograuns? 

A No. If you could expand on your question, I might 
be able to help you. 

Q Did you have any other substantive conversations 
with North about your dealings with Sacher? 

A Perhaps only substantive in regard to the nature of 
the program that he was interested in conducting, or seeing 
conducted, and the approximate cost of such a program, and," 
again, I shouldn't use ^^'^qrt t-afV^^^P^ " because I'm really 



Duldn't use th^^Qfid i-SW^^ 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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trying to be as helpful as I can. 

The eventuality of a briefing in which the program 
would be presented. 

Q Did you participate in a solicitation of funds for 
the contras from any other individuals? 

A Well, I was in the room at the Hay-Adams where 
solicitations were made, so that was a roomful of people. 

Q what about more private solicitations than the 
roomful of people? 

A ' Yes. In June of 1985, Mr. Channell told me that he 
wanted me to accompany him to Miami with Mr. Conrad in order 
to provide Mr. Calero with some training in public speaking, 
for him to polish his presentation that he made to organiza- 
tions, for him to improve his image and his impact. And I 
said fine, and we set the date, and I later learned that Mr. 
Sacher was going to be in Miami at the same time. 

I don't know how long before I learned that. And 
we got to Miami and Mr. Channell contacted Mr. Sacher and 
arranged for Mr. Sacher to meet at the Calero home. And at 
that time Mr. Calero 's brother either showed up, or was 
already there, and Channell wanted to solicit Sacher for 
something, and I don't know what it was. 

But in the context of their conversations, it was 
learned that there was a plane in Fort Lauderdale. I don't 
know much about military matters so I can't say what kind of 



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plane it was, only that it had four engines. And that they 
wanted to buy it, "they" meaning the brothers Calero. 

And Channell seized on that and said, "Let's go see 
the plane, Fred," or something to that effect. So we went 
out there and looked at this plane. 

And later that evening at a restaurant, Channel! 
made a pitch to -- did I say Sacher? 

Q Yes. 

A Oh, I'm sorry. It's not Sacher. It's John Ramsey. 
I'm sorry, please. It's John Ramsey who was in Miami, and he 
made a pitch to John Ramsey to pay for the plane. 

Q Do you know the result of that pitch? 

A Ramsey did not want to. It was a negative. 

Q All right. You testified a few minutes earlier 
that you don't recall having helped to arrange any one-on-one 
meetings between North and NEPL contributors or potential 
contributors. If I can be a bit more specific, do you recall 
calling North to request a briefing for a particular Channell 
contributor in August of 1985? 

A A briefing for an individual? 

Q Yes . 

A I may have done so, but I don't recall who the 

individual was, and I don't recall the conversation. 

Q Do you recall discussing Mrs. Newington during the 

same time period with Colgri§J_;yQ;ctii? 



eriod with ColcDnelNorth? 

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A Yes. 

Q What do you recall about the substance of that 
conversation? 

A Not very much. Mrs. Newington's name had come up 
numerous times because I think Channel 1 regarded her as a 
significant contributor. And Channell and Miller had had 
conversations about her, as had Colonel North. And at that 
time, I believe Mr. Miller was on vacation or out of town, 
and I was asked to step in again. And I probably asked 
something about. Are you going to meet with Mrs. Newington, 
or When is Mrs . Newington coming to town? I later learned 
that Colonel North went to Connecticut to meet with her. But 
I believe by the time they met, Mr. Miller was back and made 
the trip also. 

Q Are you aware of the designation of a project 
called a toys project that was kept in NEPL? 

A I only became aware of it when I read about it in 
the newspaper. 

Q' So you never heard the phrase "toys project" used 
by any NEPL employee or associate or IBC employee or associate 

A Never - 

Q — prior to the public disclosure this year? 

A Never . 

Q Mr. Gomez, what's your understanding as to the 

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intended purpose of the contra assistance payments that were 
being made as part of what I'm referring to as the shorthand 
as contra assistance funding network? 

A Well, my understanding from the outset was that it 
was to be for non-lethal purposes; that because of the 
suspension of U.S. aid, the resistance were in very difficult 
circumstances. And I visited refugee camps and the main base 
camp of the resistance and was able to see for myself the 
conditions under which people were living, and was told by 
both the resistance leaders as well as individuals — 
peasants and fighters -- what their needs were. It was very 
apparent. They lacked medicine, food, boots, clothing, 
everything. 

Colonel North, when the relationship began and we 
started talking about assistance to the resistance, never 
mentioned anything but aid to provide for basic needs to keep 
this group alive. And in a series of conversations that I 
had with Mr. Miller, I wanted to be assured myself that we 
were not providing any money for weapons -- non-lethal — and 
I received those assurances. 

Q Why did you seek those assurances? 

A Because I wanted to be sure that I was not party to 
any violation of the Neutrality Act. 

Q Now, you testified a moment ago that that was your 
initial understanding. Did your understanding change over 

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time as to the intended purpose of the contra assistance 
payments or solicitations? 

A Slightly. That is because later I heard talk 
about, well, one, this list of weapons, and my understanding 
of that was that was a way to elicit contributions, and that 
that would not be the final purpose to which the money would 
be put; but, rather, that that was a means to get money which 
would then be provided for general support or for non-lethal 
assistance of whatever kind. It was not my understanding 
moneys received through the Channell fund-raising efforts 
were to go for lethal equipment. 

Q Were you at the time -- 

A Although I could never be assured of that because I 
didn't know where the money was going. I was told that, in 
fact, moneys were going to provide assistance to various 
groups, information, political support, general support, and 
including operation for a little girl who had her arm shot or 
somebody else that needed an operation on a leg or whatever. 
That kind of thing — political activity, information 
activity and general assistance. 

Q Were you ever told about particular solicitations 
in which this arms list that you described or other arms 
lists were used to solicit money from certain individuals? 

A The arms list, how that was used to solicit? 

Q Right. 



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A And what was the disposition of the funds? 

Q Yes. 

A No. 

Q So it's fair to say that there were a number of 
individual solicitations that resulted in sizable contribu- 
tions that you were not aware of the substance of those 
solicitations? 

A No. 

Q Or the disposition of those contributions? 

A . No. 

Q When you say no, I take it that your response is 
that, in fact, it is fair to say that that's the case with 
respect to your knowledge. 

A Yes. In fact, when I was asked to sign some of the 
disbursements from IC, Inc. to various places, I asked Mr. 
Miller, "Where is this going?" And in some instances, he 
said he didn't know. In other instances, he said, well, this 
is $100,000 for so-and-so who is going to use it for education 
programs; or this is to help another group which I thought 
was fine. 

Q What is your current understanding as to the 
intended purpose of the contra assistance payments that were 
being made by NEPL to IBC? 

MR. PRECUP: Let me see if I understand your 



question before the witness answers. 



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You are asking him as of today what his understand- 
ing is, including all the newspapers and general publicity of 
the hearings here? 

MR. KAPLAN: That's correct. Basically, I think 
what we have on the record is that early on he received a 
number of assurances that the money was going to be used for 
humanitarian or non-lethal purposes. As time continued, I 
believe that Mr. Gomez's testimony was that he began to have 
a few doubts, but he could never know for sure because he 
didn't know who the recipients were and he didn't know of 
particular solicitations and he didn't know the disposition, 
the ultimately disposition of the proceeds. And I was just 
continuing the progression up to the present to ask whether 
on any basis he's arrived at a different understanding today 
than his latest one as to what the disposition or intended 
purpose of those payments were. 

THE WITNESS: Well, I'd like to go back to my 
answer to your previous question because it helps explain my 
mindset at the time when I believed that we were working 
primarily or exclusively on non-lethal matters. 

That is, that I had heard reports in the media of 
contributions from other countries and from other individuals 
which provided for weaponry, for lethal purposes. Therefore, 
it was my understanding that our role was to provide for the 
humanitarian side of things. 



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Now, with respect to the ultimate use of the moneys 
and what I know and understand today, I believe that a large 
part of the moneys that were raised did go to the purposes 
that we understood that they were going to; that is, non- 
lethal. However, I learned from reading the press that some 
moneys were transferred — and I don't remember the amounts - 
- to Lake Resources. And I, of course, didn't remember what 
Lake Resources was, but it has since become evidence that 
Lake Resources was a company operated by people who were 
involved in supplying or purchasing weapons. And I was 
shocked when I learned that. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q You mentioned a bit earlier in your testimony that 
you were concerned about the potential that some of these 
funds might be going for lethal supplies because of your 
concerns about the Neutrality Act. How did you develop an 
understanding of and concern for potential violations of the 
Neutrality Act? 

A Well, questions about the Neutrality Act had 
surfaced in the media very early on, shortly after the 
suspension of official U.S. assistance. And so there was a 
lot of discussion about it. I just wanted to be sure that we 
were not dealing in weapons. 

Q Did you ever seek legal advice with respect to the 
Neutrality Act? 



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A No, but I asked Mr. Miller whether he had. 

Q What was his response? 

A Yes, but I don't know if that was related spe- 
cifically to the Neutrality Act. 

Q Do you recall when this conversation about the 
Neutrality Act and other legal implications took place? 

A Probably in spring or winter of 1986. 

Q Now, was this a conversation that took place as 
part of your expression to Mr. Miller of reservations you had 
about the contra assistance network in which IBC was engaged? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, you signed a number of letters that transferred 
funds to Lake Resources, among others, and as you testified 
earlier this morning, those letters were signed at Mr. 
Miller's request and at Colonel North's prior instruction or 
direction. 

A To Mr. Miller. 

Q To Mr. Miller. That's correct. 

Did you ever ask Mr. Miller what Lake Resources was? 

A I believe I did. I probably asked him what other 
places, other things were, too, but he didn't know. And we 
assumed that it was an account which was either controlled by 
or made accessible to — that is, the funds in them would be 
made accessible to the resistance. 

Q There was a sizable amount of funds that went from 

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IBC and IC, Inc. to Lake Resources. I'm sure you noticed 
that over time. 

A Yes. 

Q Did you press Mr. Miller or did you ever have a 
discussion with him or North as to what Lake Resources was? 

A First of all, I never discussed any of the funds 
transfers with Colonel North. 

Q Okay. I think that's important to clarify for the 
record. 

A - I did discuss it with Mr. Miller. I asked him if 
he knew what Lake Resources and some of the other groups 
were, and he said he didn't know. And I don't recall whether 
I went any further than that, after having been reassured by 
Mr. Miller that, again, his understanding that these moneys 
were not going for legal purposes; and also that we could not 
be held accountable for the funds once they were transferred. 

In other words, I believe what he said, if I can 
paraphrase it, was, well, once it leaves our hands we don't 
know what happens to the money; therefore, it shouldn't be of 
concern to us. 

Q Did you ever discuss the contra assistance network 
with David Fischer? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever discuss it with Marty Artiano? 

A No. 



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MLIU KVOHnNO CO . INC 
iC7 C Sum. N E 2 5 

Wuhinpon. DC 10002 



iCLASSiFiED 



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Q Are you aware that in February of 1987 IBC prepared 
a report for NEPL relating to so-called program expenditures 
for the years 1985 and 19867 

A I was aware of it. 

Q Were you involved in the preparation of the report? 

A No. 

Q Did you review the report prior to its being 
delivered to NEPL? 

A I don't recall having reviewed it. 

Q - Have you reviewed the report since? 

A No. I don't believe I've ever seen it. 

Oh, wait a minute. February '87... I didn't review 
it. It was not even shown to me, as I recall. 

Q Have you reviewed it since it was issued? 

A No. 

Q How did you become aware of the existence of the 
report? 

A Mr. Miller told me he was preparing it. 

Q Did you read about the report in the press after it 
was disclosed? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ask Mr. Miller or anyone else to review a 
copy of the report after having read of these press dis- 



closures? 



No. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HLLn mroimta co.. nc. 
507 C Strett. N E ^ ^ 

Washiatno. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



83 



Q Did you discuss any conclusions drawn on the report 
with Mr. Miller? 

A Yes. We discussed it once or twice. 

Q Do you recall the substance of those discussions? 

A Well, he was very concerned about accounting for 
every cent that was received and disbursed under the Channell 
relationship because in the haste to carry out programs or 
projects, a lot of things fell through the cracks. And our 
record-keeping was not as good as it should have been, and he 
wanted to be sure that he had a record, to his best ability 
to compile that record. That was it. 

I do recall him telling me that he had received 
letters from organizations in which it stated that they had 
received moneys. I never saw the letters. I know that he 
felt reassured by that. 

Q Did you ever have occasion to discuss that report 
with Channell? 

A No. 

Q With Conrad? 

A I have not talked to them for a long time. 

Q Did there come a time, Mr. Gomez, when IBC began to 
deduct ten percent of the contra assistance payments for the 
personal benefit of you and Mr. Miller?' 

A Yes, although I wouldn't characterize it as for the 
personal benefit of both of 



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■nun mromma CO.. mc. 
)07 C Street. NE. 25 

Vuhmitoti. D.C. 20002 



Q Well, why don't you first tell me when the ten 
percent began to be deducted from the contra assistance 
payments? 

A I don't remember exactly when it was. Late spring 
or early summer of '86. 

Q How would you characterize the ten percent deduc- 
tion? 

A Well, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, we had been 
conducting programs at a rather frantic pace for well over a 
year, and our sense all throughout that period was that we 
were not being compensated adequately for our services . We 
often talked. Rich Miller and myself talked about that 
because we had put on a large number of staff and were paying 
for large numbers of services. 1 noted that we didn't have 
an accurate understanding of how much money was coming in and 
how much was going out, and I was concerned about that. 

Mr. Miller approached Mr. Channell about increasing 
our retainer and was denied. So I was told by Mr. Miller 
around this time that he had discussed with Colonel North 
taking part of that, whatever it was, ten percent, and 
putting it aside for us to later use in defraying operation 
expenses. That's it. 

Q Do you recall when Miller told you he had had that 
conversation with North? 

A I don ' t remember the 



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HULn Noomwo co.. mc 

50-CSum. NE 25 

Wuhioitoo. D C. 20002 




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Q Is it possible that it was some time late in 1985? 

A It's possible. I remember that the subject had 
come up. Before it was actually begun, the subject had been 
raised because... 

Q To your knowledge, was there a time when the ten 

percent began to be deducted as a paper matter prior to the 
actual deductions themselves? 

A I cannot give you any information on those details. 

Q Okay. You mentioned in your previous answer that 
the subject began to be discussed because, and then I think I 
might have cut you off. Would you continue that answer? 

A Well, I was concerned about the large staff and the 
large number of expenditures that we were encountering. At 
this time, I was not very involved in the Channel 1 matter. I 
was doing other things. And it was just a concern. 

I believe that Mr. Miller raised the idea of the 
possibility of compensation with Colonel North some months 
before it actually happened. In other words, this is 
something that is an idea that arose and which was in the 
back of some people's minds until it was later decided to go 
ahead. 

Q Did North approve the idea? 

A I was told by Mr. Miller that North approved the 
idea. He conveyed to me Colonel North's great appreciation 
for what we were doing, the risks that we were taking, and 



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HlUflt REPORTINQ CO.. INC. 
507 C Sirett. N.E 25 

Vuhuition. DC. 20002 



UNCLASSIFIE! 



86 



the costs that we were bearing to carry out these programs . 

Q When you say that there were significant program 
expenditures and staffing that was required, which programs 
are you referring to when you talk about the expenditures and 
the staffing? 

A NEPL, the public information campaigns. 

Q Did these expenditures or staffing, though, have 
anything to do necessarily with the contra funding network? 
MR. PRECUP: Necessarily? 

MR. KAPLAN: I will take that amendment to my 
question. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Did the expenditures and staffing have anything to 
do with the contra assistance network that was being conducted 
by NEPL, IBC and IC, Inc.? 

A I would say something to do with it, but not 
entirely. Most of the work, the effort at that time was for 
a public information program, a general support to NEPL. 
They made many requests of us for information, for services, 
for publications, for research, for many things that you 
cannot necessarily separate from what is public information 
and other assistance to the NEPL group from the fund-raising 
and transfers. 

Q Was it your understanding that the ten percent that 
was being deducted from the contra assistance payments was 



1 the contra assj 



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MiLLE* ncromiNa co , mc. 
107 C Strett. N E 2 5 

Wubiopoo. D C 20002 



llNCLASSra 



87 



additional compensation for all of the activities that IBC 
was conducting across the board for NEPL? 

A It wasn't explained to me that way. It was just 
compensation for services, additional compensation over and 
above the monthly retained which we always regarded as 
inadequate . 

Q The services we're talking about are the total 
array of services that IBC was performing on NEPL's behalf, 
not just the services or expenditures relating to the contra 
assistance network. 

A It was never put to me in those terms. In hind- 
sight, it looks like that was the way it was. 

Q when was World Affairs Counselors, Inc. established? 

A I think in the summer of '86. 

Q what's your understanding as to why World Affairs 
was established? 

A I believe Mr. Miller told me that it was to provide 
a separate account to which moneys could be transferred from 
IC, Inc., and which would on the basis of need revert back to 
Gomez International and Miller Communications. 

Q Did North approve, to your knowledge, of the 
formation of World Affairs Counselors? 

A According to Mr. Miller, yes. 

Q To your knowledge, did North suggest the formation, 
of World Affairs Counselors? 



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miLua RtronriNO co.. inc. 
507 c Sum. N E •^ ^ 

WuhinsTon. D C. 20001 




88 



A I don't know where the initiative for it came. 

Q Was Channell ever told or Conrad ever told about 
the ten percent deduction that was being made of the contra 
assistance payments? 

A I was told by Mr. Miller that he had discussed it 
with Mr. Channell, but after the fact. 

Q Do you recall when Miller told you about his 
discussion with Channell about this ten percent deduction? 

A I can't recall exactly when it was. I would say 
fall of. last year, maybe a year ago. Less than a year. 

Q Did Miller relate to you any reaction that Channell 
had? 

A Yes. He said that Mr. Channell thought it was 
acceptable. 

Q Is it fair to say that you felt entitled to this 
ten percent deduction because of the variety of services that 
you were conducting on behalf of NEPL? 

A Yes . 

Q Is it also fair to say that you had no doubt that 
North had complete authority to authorize the ten percent 
deduction of the contra assistance payments? 

A Our belief was that once the money reached IC, Inc. 
we could not dispose of it without Colonel North's concurrence 
or direction. 

Q Was it your u nde r s.t lyifU an thSft North had complete 



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MKUK RVOttTwa CO.. MC. 
507 C SuCTt, N E 25 

Vuhinfion. D C 20002 



uiiCUSSIFlEO 



89 



discretion or control over the contra assistance payments 
once they reached IC, Inc.? 

A To say complete control may be going too far, 
because — 

Q How would you describe it? 

A I believed that we had the option at any time to 
return the money to anybody that provided it -- that is, back 
to Channell — to close the account and to close shop. But 
as far as where the money went and when it went and how much 
went, that was 100 percent Colonel North's call. 

Q Is that the basis on which you felt that he could 
authorize to you the additional ten percent deduction from 
the contra assistance payments? 

A That's part of it. 

Q Do you want to explain what the other parts were? 

A Well, the sense that we had was that once the money 
was there it was at his disposal, and our disposal insofar as 
the procedures to be followed in handling transfers. Mr. 
Miller could have, in effect, written himself a check on that 
money, and no one would have been the wiser. We could have 
done it without Colonel North's concurrence or awareness. 
So when you say did it solely depend on Colonel 
North, I would say no, it did not. But it was a major factor. 

Q Is it fair to say that you wouldn't have started to 
deduct the ten percent without. Coicnel North's approval? 



528 



mc90 



UNCLASSIFIEO 



90 



1 A That's fair. 

2 Q Was World Affairs Counselors set up, at least in 

3 your mind, primarily to receive the ten percent deduction of 

4 the payments that were transferred from IBC to IC, Inc.? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Other than this ten percent deduction or payments 

7 to World Affairs Counselors, did you receive any benefits 

8 from the provisions of monetary assistance to the resistance? 

9 A No. 

10 Q , Are you aware of anyone else receiving or deriving 

11 any benefit from the contra assistance funding network? 

12 A No. 

13 MR. PRECUP: Apart from the contras? 

14 MR. KAPLAN: Apart from the contras and apart from 

15 any cut of contributions that NEPL might have taken prior to 

16 passing them on to IBC. 

17 THE WITNESS: No. 

18 MR. KAPLAN: I think this is a good time to break 

19 for lunch. 

20 [Luncheon recess.] 

21 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

22 Q When was the Institute for North-South Issues 

23 created? 

24 A I don't remember the exact date when it was 



HLLEN KErORTINO CO.. MC. 
)07 C Sum. N E 25 

Waikuiiioit. DC 20002 



formally recorded in the District of Columbia, but early '84. 



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mxEn nromuMi co . mc. 
J07 C S<rm. N E 25 

Wuiuoftoa. D C 20002 



Q Was it some time after your retirement from the 
State Department? 

A Yes. 

Q Soon thereafter? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you incorporate it? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you also apply for tax-exempt status? 

A Yes . 

Q ', Do you recall when the organization received its 
tax-exempt determination from the IRS? 

A It was November or December of 1985. 

Q Did Colonel North have any involvement in the 
application that the Institute filed for tax-exempt status? 

A No. 

Q Was the tax-exempt status granted by the Internal 
Revenue Service, insofar as you know, in a routine manner? 

A Yes. Slow. 

Q Could you state, again, when the tax-exempt status 
was received. 

A November or December of '85. 

Q Do you recall when the application was filed for 
tax-exempt status? 

A 1984. 

Q Was there some problem in the application? Did the 



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INCLASSIFlEi 



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507 C Succt. N E 25 

WuhiniTon. O C 20OO2 



application have to be amended a couple of times? 
A I believe it was, yeah. 

Q Those were all routine amendments, and — 
A Everything was routine, including the delay. 
Q When did North become aware, to your knowledge, of 
the Institute for North-South Issues? 
A In the fall of '85. 

Q Are you sure we're talking about the fall of 1985, 
and not some time earlier than that? 

MR. KAPLAN: Let's go off the record a minute. 
[Brief recess . ) 

MR. KAPLAN: Could I please have the last question. 
[The record was read by the reporter.] 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I believe you might have answered it just a moment 
ago, but I'll ask it again. To your knowledge, when did 
North become aware of the existence of the Institute for 
North-South Issues? 

A Around the same time, '85, that we received tax- 
deductible status. 

Q Did you ever discuss with North the use of the 
Institute for North-South Issues for contra-assistance 
payments? 

A I don't recall discussing it. I know that it was 

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■u-ER mromrma co . inc. 

507 C Sum. N E ^5 

Wuhingion. D C. 20002 



SNWSSM 



93 



discussed, and I believe it was Mr. Miller who discussed it. 

Q Do you recall when Miller might have discussed 
that? When Miller did discuss that with North? 

A It was fall of '85. 

Q Is it possible, Mr. Gomez, that Miller discussed 
the Institute for North-South Issues with North in February 
of 1985? 

A It's possible. 

Q Do you know what the result of the discussions that 
Miller and North had about the possible use of the Institute 
to receive and distribute contra-assistance payments? 

A What I know is that — what I know has been relayed 
to me exclusively by Mr. Miller. No one else. It was my 
understanding then, and it is my understanding now, that 
Colonel North had received, or have been approached by someone 
about a contribution from the Heritage Foundation. And the 
Heritage Foundation was looking for a tax-deductible entity 
to which to give the contribution. 

And Colonel North was casting about for such an 
entity, and in the context of inquiring of Richard Miller, 
Miller volunteered that this entity existed. 

At the time, we had not yet received certification, 
and so I think it was dropped, briefly, and then it was taken 
up again, shortly thereafter, two months later, perhaps. 

Q what was your reaction to the use of the Institute 



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to receive contra-assistance payments? 

A I didn't like it. Well, I disagreed with the 
notion that it should be used for that purpose because that 
was not the purpose for which it was created, and I was also 
looking forward to receiving tax-deductible status, and 
getting on with the work that I had originally conceived for 
the Institute, which is fundamentally to work in international 
exchanges, to build understanding between the Third World and 
the United States. 

And I thought that doing that would harm the 
Institute, and harm its ability to do what I hoped it would be 
able to do all along. 

Q Did you express these concerns to Mr. Miller? 

A I did. 

Q Do you recall whether he took any action on these 
concerns? 

A Well, at first, he accepted ray view, and the 
subject came up later, and we discussed this, more or less 
had the same kind of discussion, and he pointed out to me 
that the contribution from the Heritage Foundation would be 
intended for information purposes, political purposes within 
the United States. 

And that therefore, it could be interpreted as 
being consistent with the objectives of the organization. 

Q When you say the "contribution from the Heritage 



1 you say the "contrimiiic 



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507 C ScTCTt. N E- 2 5 

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«NCIASS!FIE! 



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Foundation", you're referring to a $100,000 contribution that 
was made some time in the late fall of 19857 

A Correct. 

Q Didn't you believe Miller's explanation about the 
use of the Heritage Foundation grant? 

A I accepted it. 

Q Did he tell you what the source of the Heritage 
Foundation, or who the source of the Heritage Foundation 
money was? 

A . No. I thought it was Heritage money. 

Q Did he tell you that the source of the Heritage 
Foundation was a result of a referral to him by North? 

A Yes. 

Q How do you square this last answer with the 
previous one? 

MR. PRECUP: Wait a minute. Would you point out 
the inconsistency you see in the two answers, so that we're 
not guessing here. 

MR. KAPLAN: I believe what I asked in the initial 
question was what he understood the ultimate source of the 
funds to be, and Mr. Gomez said the Heritage Foundation. 

Then I believe that the next question was — and I'm 
sure I'm not verbatim quoting--but the next question was, did 
Mr. Gomez come to an understanding that the ultimate source 
of the f und^ i/£i4 ^q;ne£in£. ^c>_becLtieen referred to Miller by 



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507 C Siren. N E 2 5 

VutuncToa. D C 20002 




96 



North, and he responded yes. I am just trying to figure out 
and to clarify, for the record, what Mr. Gomez's understanding 
was as to who, or what, the source of that $100,000 from the 
Heritage Foundation was. 

MR. PRECUP: Well, I think what I missed in your 
second question was "ultimate source." I'm not sure you 
voiced those words, but the record will show. 

THE WITNESS: I don't know what the "ultimate 
source" was. All I know is that Mr. Miller heard about the 
offer of- a contribution from the Heritage Foundation, from 
Colonel North. At least that was my understanding at the 
time. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Your understanding at the time was that North had 
referred to Miller, the Heritage Foundation, as a source of 
funds? ^ 

A Yes . 

Q Did you understand what those funds were to be used 
for, once they were received by the Institute for North-South 
Issues? 

A They were to be transferred to IC. 

Q Upon transfer to IC, Inc., did you have an under- 
standing as to what the use of the funds would be, beyond? 

A Initially, it was not clear what the funds were, 
but I was later--it was explained to me that they would be 

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)07 C Stim s E ^-' 

''••k.^wfoti D C 20002 



yNClASSIRED 



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used for information, or political activities. 

Q Do you know whether or not the Institute for North- 
South Issues ever received that money from the Heritage 
Foundation? 

A Yes . 

Q How much money, do you recall? 

A I believe it was 100,000. 

Q Do you know how much of that $100,000 was then 
passed to IC, Inc.? 

A ' I believe 80,000. 

Q Do you know why only 80 of the $100,000 was passed 

to IC, Inc.? 

A I believe Mr. Miller reached an understanding either 
with Heritage, or with Colonel North, about retaining 20,000 
for the Institute. 

Q When did you arrive at that understanding? 

A I believe some time after the fact, but I can't be 
any more precise than that. 

Q Did you have any concerns about the Institute 
having retained $20,000 of the money that was donated, at 
least on the surface by the Heritage Foundation? 

A No. The Institute, we had been struggling to try to 
get it going, and keep it functioning, and were having a 
director to operate it. It had been costing us money up to 
that point, so a fee like that was welcomed. 

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i07 C SoKt. N E 
Vislun(t°°. DC. 20001 



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Q Did you learn, some time after the payment by the 
Heritage Foundation to the Institute, that the money had 
always been intended for contra-assistance efforts? 

A No, I--not until perhaps after all of this became 
public. I was really never certain where the monies ended 
up, only that I had been assured that they were going to be 
used for--again--political and informational activities. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Deposition Exhibit No. 6 a copy of a Form 990 for 1985 
that was filed by the Institute for North-South Issues with 
the Internal Revenue Service. 

[Whereupon, the document 
referred to was marked 
Gomez Deposition Exhibit 
No. 6 for identification.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I will ask you whether you have ever seen this 
return before? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you review this return before it was filed? 
A I don't think so. 

Q I'm going to direct your attention — 
A Maybe I did. 
Q I'd like to direct your attention to the second 



page of Exhibit 6 . i 



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Yes. I did. 



Q I'll ask you whether you recall having reviewed 
Part 3, for instance, prior to the filing of the form? 

A No. I believe I reviewed it after. 

Q The information that describes the Heritage 
Foundation grant that's found in Part 3A of this form, do you 
recall who supplied that information? 

A To best of my knowledge, it was Mr. Miller. 

Q Did you ask Mr. Miller about the information that's 
containe.d on the form? 

A Yes . 

Q What did you ask him, and what did he respond? 

A I asked him if he could expand on this and tell me 
more precisely what kind of information services were 
involved in this, and he wasn't able to tell me. Only that he 
said that the money had gone for different groups, relating 
to political, public affairs, public-relations support 
activities of the resistance. 

Q To your knowledge, is the description contained in 
Part 3A an accurate description of what you were told the 
Heritage Foundation grant was used for? 

A Yes. 

Q I take it, it is fair to say, on the basis of your 
testimony, that subsequent to public disclosure of the events 
under investigation, b^ tJ"^° _Qym''Ji-*'°°° . you've come to a 



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different understanding as to what the Heritage Foundation 
money was used for? 

A I don't know what it was used for. 

Q When did you first meet Adolfo Calero? 

A I met him in early October 1983. 

Q Did you meet him in the context of your respon- 
sibilities at the U.S. Information Agency? 

A Yes. 

Q After you left the USIA, did you have a business or 
professional relationship with Mr. Calero? 

A Yeah, a business relationship, yes, beginning in 
October of 1984. 

Q Was that business relationship a part of the 
services that IBC was conducting for Mr. Calero and others? 

A Yes. It was a retainer relationship. 

Q Can you just describe, briefly, what the substance 
of the business relationship was. 

A We were to assist him in writing speeches, articles, 
arranging for public platforms, speeches. Monitoring the 
media. Criticism of the resistance movement, anything 
related to that in order to better prepare responses for him, 
and also, things relating to the Government of Nicaragua. 
Arranging interviews. 

Q Was there a time in which you began to refer to Mr. 
Calero by use of the name "Spark" or "Sparkplug"? 

m\t\\ Aooinrn 



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UNClASSifiEi 



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A Yes. 

Q When did that begin? 

A I don't have a precise recollection of when it 
began, but Mr. Calero was introduced to us by Colonel North, 
perhaps in September or October of 1984, and we were advised, 
I think by Mr. North, that that was his nickname. I don't 
believe the name, the term "code neune" was ever used, or 
anything like that. Just something rather informal like, 
"Well, we refer to him as Spark," or, "Sparkplug." 

Q So this was not a name that you coined for Mr. 
Calero? 

A No. 

Q Did Mr. Calero pay to IBC monthly retainers during 
1984 and 1985? 

A Yes, up through April or May. 

Q Are you aware of the form that the monthly retainer 
took? 

A Yes . 

Q Can you tell us what that form was. 

A They were traveller's checks. 

Q Did Mr. Calero give those checks to you or to Mr. 
Miller, or both? 

A Both. 

Q What did you do with those traveller's checks when 



you received them? 



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A Any time I received them I turned them over to Mr. 

Miller. 

Q Did you ever sign traveller's checks yourself for 
deposit into IBC's account, or for any other use? 

A No. 

Q I take it that the traveller's checks were given to 
you by Mr. Calero in blank form? 

A Yes. 

Q You yourself never signed, or made out one of those 
traveller's checks? 

A Not to ray recollection. 

Q Do you know why Calero paid you in traveller's 
checks? 

A It was never explained to me. 

Q Did you ever ask him? 

A No. 

Q To your knowledge, did-- 

A Excuse me. 

Q Go ahead. 

A I have a sense that he did a lot of business in 
traveller's checks because I either saw him using them for 
other purposes, or, he may have said something to me about 
using traveller's checks. 

Q Did Colonel North ever give you any blank travel- 
ler's checks? 



UNCLASSIFii 



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MtULUt aVOKTWO CO 
507 C SuCTI. N E 
Wuhuftoo. O C 20002 



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A No. 

Q To your knowledge, did Colonel North ever give 
Miller any blank traveller's checks? 

A No. 

Q That is, Rich Miller. 

A Yes. 

Q Were you ever in the presence of Colonel North, or 
were you ever told that North gave anyone blank traveller's 
checks? 

A . No . 

Q You mentioned a bit earlier today that you had 
State Department contracts that began shortly after your 
retirement from the United States Information Agency. 
How many such contracts were there? 

A We had a succession of purchase orders beginning in 
February 1984 which were made out initially to my name, but 
in fact I, we turned over any payment to Mr. Miller. At that 
time I was acting basically as his agent in dealing with the 
State Department. 

There were two, maybe three of these under my name, 
and then I had, by the second purchase order agreement, I had 
requested that they be made out to IBC, that IBC be the 
contractor rather than myself because that in effect was what 
the relationship was. 

But because of administrative reasons, they failed 

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to do so, and it wasn't until perhaps the fourth, or so, 
purchase order — third or fourth, I don't recall which — when 
IBC first appeared. 

Q Did IBC first appear at your request? 

A Yes. It was my request after the first contract, 
or first purchase order. 

Q How were those contracts obtained? 

A I met with the then executive officer, administra- 
tive officer of the Office of Public Diplomacy, and we 
discussed the range of services to be provided, and the 
compensation for them, and it was agreed to do it on a short- 
term basis of roughly two months each for an indefinite 
period. 

Q There came a point in time when at least one of the 
series of contracts or purchase order was classified as a 
secret contract. I think you mentioned that in your testimony 
this morning. 

Do you know why that contract was classified as a 
secret contract? 

A Yes. I have a version, an understanding--! 've seen 
many since. I was under the impression that it was classified 
secret by the State Department because of the sensitivity 
both of what we were doing in handling visitors from Central 
America, and because of the relationship that we and the 
office had with Colonel North's office. There had been 



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instances of refugees, political and otherwise, from Nicara- 
gua, who, upon leaving Nicaragua, had found their families, 
friends, and relatives, acquaintances, either persecuted, 
questioned, arrested, tortured, jailed--what have you. 

And some of the people that we were handling — 
that's not the right word — I prefer assisting, after they 
reached the United States, both from Nicaragua and from El 
Salvador, had well-founded fears for their personal safety. 

Q How did you arrive at the understanding that at 
least part of the reason for the classification of these 
contracts was because of the relationship between your office 
and Colonel North's office? 

A Because it was mentioned to me by both Mr. Miller 
and people at the Office of Public Diplomacy. 

Q Are you aware as to whether a particular individual 
requested that the State Department contracts be classified 
as secret? 

A I believe--again, this is secondhand--I believe 
that someone in the Office of Public Diplomacy, and I don't 
remember whether it was Jonathan Miller or John Blacken, 
recommended that it be classified. 

Q Was Jonathan Miller aware of the relationship 
between IBC and Colonel North's office? 

A He knew that we were doing work beyond the scope of 
the State Department, yes. 



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Q Did Jonathan Miller know anything about--to your 
knowledge- -did he know anything about the contra-funding 
network among NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. and Colonel North? 

A No. 

Q Did the State Department contracts allow for 
initial regular contact between you and Mr. Calero, Mr. 
Rubelo and Mr. Cruz? 

A They did not even mention contact, nor were we 
encouraged to have contact. The contact with them really 
came up .in the context of our dealings with Mr. North. 

Q When did you first meet Jonathan Miller? 

A when I started dealing with the Office of Public 
Diplomacy. 

Q Do you recall when that was? 

A It was February of '84. 

Q Was Jonathan Miller the State Department supervisor 
of your contracts, or State Department contact for your 
contracts with the Department? 

A Yes, in addition to an executive officer. 

Q The Committees have received evidence that show 
that you had at least several meetings that included both 
North and Jonathan Miller, and yourself. 

Do you recall the substance of those meetings? 

A They had to do with general assistance — public 
affairs, and political activities, either conducted by or on 



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INCIASSIFI 



107 



behalf of the resistance leadership, and coordination of 
programs between the Office of Public Diplomacy and North's 
office. 

Q You testified earlier, that to your knowledge, 
Jonathan Miller did not know of the contra-funding network? 

A That's correct. 

Q Were you aware of any other dealings that Jonathan 
Miller had with Colonel North relating to contra assistance? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you describe for us, to your knowledge, what 
those other dealings were. 

A They got into the realm of political counsel, and 
even direction, or attempts to direct the relationships, 
affect relationships among various of the resistance leaders, 
particularly in their level of cooperation, or non-cooperation 
vis-a-vis the Meskito Indians. 

Q How did you become aware of those dealings between 
North and Jonathan Miller? 

A Well, in May of 1985, I believe it was May 29th--I 
can't be certain. It could be May 1, but it was either the 
beginning or the end of the month. I was asked to go to 
Costa Rica in order to transmit back to Washington the 
translation of a declaration, the so-called "Declaration of 
San Jose" which the resistance leadership had worked out in 
meetings in Costa Rica, and prior to getting to Costa Rica. 



sta Rica, ana prior to g€ 



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Mmm 



108 



And this document was considered to be important 
because it laid out the philosophy of the group as far as 
their future emibitions, objectives for their country, 
Nicaragua. 

Mr. Miller was also in Costa Rica, and held 
meetings at that time with one of the Meskito leaders, 
Brooklyn Rivera, who was the head of one of the factions, and 
I sat in on a meeting that Mr. Miller had with Mr. Rivera in 
a hotel room, during which he attempted to encourage him to 
join forces with the resistance and to sign the declaration. 

Q who asked you to go to Costa Rica to interpret the 
San Jose declaration? 

A To translate. 

Q To translate. 

A The Office of Public Diplomacy. 

Q Do you recall when you first met Rob Owen? 

A Yes. 

Q When was that? 

A The fall of 1984. 

Q In what context did you first meet Rob Owen? 

A I met him as an acquaintance of Colonel North. 

Q Did North introduce you to Owen? 

A I don't remember the first time I met him, whether 



it was Colonel North who introduced me, or whether it was 



Adolf o Calero. 



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IFi 



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Q what did you understand Owen's relationship with 
North to be? 

A Well, at first it was very unclear. At times, it 
looked like he was someone who was free-lancing, working 
independently on behalf of the cause and providing services 
gratis . 

At other times it looked like he may have been in 
the employ of the resistance, that is, the FDN, and still, at 
other times, it looked like he was taking direction from 
Colonel .North. And the precise nature of his role was not 
clear to me until subsequent events. 

Q What do you mean when you say "until subsequent 
events "? 

A Until the newspapers. 

Q I just wanted to have you make that clear for the 
record. Did you ever discuss with Owen the contra-funding 
network that NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. and North were conducting? 

A No. 

Q Are you aware as to whether anyone else ever 
discussed that contra-assistance network with Owen? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware that Owen was, for lack of a better 
word, planted by North at the Nicaraguan humanitarian aid 
office? 



No, not at the time. 



UNCiiSSIREO 



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LliUSSl! 



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Q Is there some time during which you did become 
aware that Owen was serving in that capacity? 

A When I read about it in the newspapers . 

Q That is, some time after November of 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Was there a time at which you became aware that 
Owen also had an association with a group called the Institute 
for Terrorism and Sub-National Conflict? 

A Yes. 

Q \ Do you recall when you first became aware of Owen^s 
association with that organization? 

A Again, I learned about it through the newspapers. 

Q Do you recall — would you like to supplement your 
previous answer? 

A Yes. I didn't know, at the time, that Owen was 
involved, but I had learned of the existence of an Institute- 
-on Terrorism and Sub-National Conflict? 

Q That's correct. 

A I learned of its existence prior to November of '86. 

Q Did you learn of its existence in connection with 
signing a letter distributing some funds to that organization? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall having signed a letter, or having 
been party to a Telex directly IC, Inc. to distribute $75,000 



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A I recall it now, today, because I saw it on one of 
the exhibits that you showed me, but I either did not see it, 
or it did not register at the time that I signed the document 
on which those words appear. 

What made me recall the existence of the Institute 
was something else I read in the press prior to November 1986 
about such an organization. It was in the context of 
television, or media, dealing with the subject of terrorism. 

Q Do you know Father Tom Dowling? 

A I have met him and seen him. 

Q Have you ever talked to him? 

A Not substantively. 

Q Do you recall IBC and IC, Inc. having made payments 
to a group called the Latin American Strategic Studies 
Institute? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you know who directs that Institute? 

A Father Dowling, as far a I know. 

Q Did you have any understanding at the time, that 
the payments from IBC and IC, Inc. were mpde, as to what the |^ 
purpose of those p«Ffinents were to be? ^^ 

A My understanding was that they were for political 
activities . 

Q How did you arrive at that--I'm sorry. 

A Public affairs. Because I knew of the, something of 



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112 



the Institute, and some of the work that had been done by it 
in support of the FDN. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Dowling the provision of 
assistance to the contras through what we've been referring 
to today as the contra-assistance network? 

A I have never had a substantive conversation with 
Father Dowling. 

Q Do you know whether anyone else ever told him of the 
existence of this contra-assistance network? 

A No. 

Q Do you know an individual neuned Richard Pena? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell me when you first met Mr. Pena. 

A I believe he and I had lunch when he was still 
working on the Hill. I don't remember the time. 

Q Do you recall what year? 

A It was in 1985. '84 or '85. 

Q Do you recall the reason why you had lunch with Mr. 
Pena? 

A Well, I had heard of him, and we had spoken on the 
phone in regard to a visitor from Guatemala, I believe, and I 
knew that he was--the visitor from Guatemala was interested 
in meeting with Congressman Wright. And so I thought that 
because Pena was a fellow Hispanic, and a Texan, that he 
could be helpful to me. 



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UNCLASSIHEO 



113 



And I know that this, what I just described took 
place. whether that was the first contact with Richard Pena, 
I'm not certain. I believe it was. 

Q Did you have any subsequent dealings with Mr. Pena? 

A Yes. I saw him at an American Council for Young 
Political Leaders dinner in June, or so, of 1986, and since 
he left his employment on Capitol Hill and joined a consulting 
firm, I've seen him two or three times. 

Q Have you had any business dealings with Mr. Pena? 

A . We have discussed business opportunities, business 
proposals, but never--they were never formalized. 

Q Did any of those business proposals concern the 
provision of lethal supplies to the contras? 

A No. . 

Q Are you aware that in August of 1986, that Mr. Pena 
wrote a letter to World Affairs Counselors, Inc. enclosing a 
list of lethal supplies and their availability, intended for 
the contras? .i 

A No. ■ ■■> 

Q Have you ever had any contact with Richard Secord? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever had any contact relating to contra 
assistance with Vice President Bush? 

A No . 

Q Have you ever had any contact relating to contra 



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ONCUSSIRIO 



114 



assistance with Donald Gregg? 

A No. 

Q The same question with respect to Felix Rodriguez. 

A No. 

Q Do you recall, did you travel to Panama in November 
of 1986? 

A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 



Yes. 

Did you travel with Mr. Miller? 
Yes . 

Can you tell me what the purpose of that trip was. 
It was to confer with a client on some public 
affairs promotional activities. 

Q Did your business with that client have anything to 
do with providing assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance? 
A No. 

Q Did the client make a payment to you, or Mr. 
Miller, while you were there? 
A Yes. 

Was that payment a retainer of some sort? 

It was a monthly fee, yes, or, more than a month. 



Q 
A 
I forget 

Q 
A 

Q 



Was the payment made in cash? 

Yes. 

Did Mr. Miller report, to your knowledge, that cash 



payment on a Treasury form as Mfl.s-^jinfluired? 



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115 



A Yes. We went through the airport together, and I 
waited for him while he did it. 

Q Is that a client whom you have continued to have 
contact with since November of 1986? 

A The contract was suspended in December, and then 
renewed this spring. 

Q Was it unusual for that client to have paid you in 
cash? 

A We didn't like the idea of being paid in cash. 

Q . Do you know why the cash payment was made? 

A Yes. Because they were late in payment. We'd been 
told that we were going to be paid when we got there, and we 
were ready to go the next day, had not been paid, and we 
insisted on being paid. So he arranged to have us paid in 
cash. 

Q When was your last contact with Colonel North? 

A August of 1986. 

Q Do you recall the substance of that contact? 

A Yes. I went to see him. I had told him that I was 
going to be — I was expecting to becoming involved in the 
client relationship in Panama, and I wanted to know whether 
there was anything that he could tell me about the relation- 
ship that would suggest that I not do it. 

Q Was this the|Mni«^ii*pt^iA^Y jrpH' iC^^sited in 
November of 1986? UrluLlwO ! f ! Lli 



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A Ygs. 

Q Why did you think, at the time, that is, in August 
of 1986, that Colonel North would be able to provide you with 
any useful information about that potential client relation- 
ship? 

A Just because of his access to information. 

Q Did Colonel North do anything in order to respond 
to your question? 

A No. It was a very, very brief meeting. A few 
minutes .^ 

Q Was there any follow-up on his part? 

A No. 

Q What did he in fact tell you about that potential 
client relationship? 

A He said he saw no reason not to take it. 

Q Why were you concerned about taking on that client 
relationship? 

A Because of relationships between Panama and the 
rest of Central America 




was basically a conversation based on friendship ar 
confidence . 

Q Were you aware of any money or other items of value 
that were given to North, or to his family, during your 



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117 



relationship with him? 

A No. 

MR. PRECUP: That's a very broad question. Given 
by whom? And he earned a salary. 

THE WITNESS: I'm aware of things that were reported 
in the press, but during the time that I was dealing with 
him, no. 

MR. KAPLAN: My question meant to exclude salary, 
and the like. We all consider our salaries from the Govern- 
ment to.be a gift. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q When was the last time you had any contact with Mr. 
Channell? 

A I guess about a year ago. More than a year ago. 
August, when we severed our relationship. 

Q Did Channell not retain IBC at some point toward 
the end of last year, that is, December of 1986, to do some 
media relations for NEPL? 

A I don't know the nature of the work that was being 
done. That could have been part of a media relations, yes. 

Q But I take it you didn't have any contact with 
Channell in connection with that relationship? 

A None . 

Q Were the services performed by IBC on NEPL's 
behalf, pursuant to that relationship, all conducted by Mr. 

I ^ , . . .»■, s n i'i iS I p-'i if" ITS 



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Miller? 

A Yes. 

Q Is there any particular reason as to why you didn't 
participate in those services being performed by IBC? 

A I don't recall, exactly, how it was--how it 
evolved, only that I had other things to do, and Mr. Miller 
took the lead on that. I felt comfortable with that arrange- 
ment. 

Q When was your last contact with Dan Conrad? 

A . The same. 

Q Same time. Do you — 

A Wait a minute. I think we had a meeting, or he had 
a meeting with Mr. Miller in the fall of '86, at which time 
he discussed some ideas for assisting the Institute. Just 
some general concepts . 

Q Which Institute are you referring to? 

A Institute for North-South Issues. 

Q Do you recall the substance of your last contact 
with Channell? 

A No. See, I had phased down my involvement with 
Channell beginning in early 1986, so I had limited contact 
with him. I worked on the SOI program in the spring of '86, 
and, at that time had regular contact with him. But as far 
as other issues, particularly the Central American Freedom 
Program, I did not deal with him. 



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119 



I saw him, and attended a few meetings, but the 
last substantive meeting, or occasion when I saw him, was 
probably in July or August, and by that time Mr. Miller was 
dealing with him almost on an exclusive basis. 

Q You mentioned a bit earlier that you had some 
initial dealings with the fake Saudi prince al-Massoudi. When 
did your contact with al-Massoudi stop, and why? 

A It stopped when he and Mr. Miller left for Europe. 
It didn't stop because he wasn't around anymore. The contact 
prior to that time was incidental. In other words, he might 
appear in the office and I would say hello, or to be kind, to 
keep him occupied, I had lunch with him once, and that's it. ' 

Q Did you have any misgivings about the prince early 
on? 

A I did. 

Q Did you express those misgivings to Miller? 

A Yes. We both, had raisgiviags, and Mr. Miller 
conducted extensive research on his majesty,, his highness, 
and did a lot of checking, and so much of it squared that he 
was at least sufficiently persuaded to continue to do 
business with him. 

Q Did you have any contact with Colonel North about 
al-Massoudi? 

A We may have had a telephone call, or the subject 
may have come up at a meeting, but no extended contact. That 



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was largely in the hands of Mr. Miller. 

Q Were you involved at all in the FBI investigation 
of al-Massoudi some time later in 1985 and 1986? 

A No. 

MR. KAPLAN: Off the record for a minute. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Did you have any knowledge of the Iranian arms 
sales prior to public disclosure of those sales in late 1986? 

A No. 

Q Did you have, and do you have, any knowledge of any 
proceeds from those sales being used for contra assistance 
prior to public disclosure of that event in November of 1986? 

A No. 

Q Do you have any knowledge of any proceeds from 
those sales making their way into either NEPL or IBC at any 
time? 

A I have read the allegations in the press. That's 
all. 

Q But I take it you don't have any knowledge of your 
own, that money from the arms sales to Iran made their way 
into either Mr. Channell's organizations, or any of yours or 
Mr. Miller's organizations? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you know anything about the business dealings of 

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the Goodman Agency? 

A Only as they relate to the work that was perfonned 
on behalf of Mr. Channell. 

Q Did you deal with the Goodman Agency in connection 
with that work? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you have any knowledge as to whether any proceeds 
from the arms sales made their way into the Goodman Agency? 

A No. _ 

Q Did you have any knowledge, prior to public 
disclosure in late 1986, of any, what's been termed "third 
country solicitations" for contra assistance? 

A No, although I had heard and read some press 
allegations to the effect that other countries were providing 
assistance to the cause. 

Q Did you have any direct knowledge, other than what 
you have read in the press of other countries, providing 
assistance to the cause? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of the Sultan of Brunei 
having made a contribution of $100,000 to the resistance in 
early 1985? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall a meeting in Colonel North's off ice- 
in February of 1985 with Otto Reich, Jonathan Miller, 

iitiAi RHoinrn 



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yourself, and Walt Raymond, in which among other things the 
Nicaraguan refugee fund dinner was discussed? 

A I don't. 

Q Would it refresh your recollection if I told you 
that a new board for that fund was also discussed at that 
meeting including members Louis Aquiar, Woody Jenkins, 
possibly a Dupont, and one other individual? 

A No. 

Q So I take it that it doesn't refresh your recollec- 
tion as .to whether you ever engaged in a conversation or 
meeting with the individuals that I've mentioned before, 
either collectively, or alone, about a $100,000 contribution 
by the Sultan of Brunei to the resistance? 

A Nothing that you've said has refreshed my recollec- 
tion. There is no recollection. 

Q Prior to public disclosure in late '86, did you have 
any knowledge of hostage-rescue efforts that were being 
conducted, either by or on behalf of the United States 
Government, relating to the hostages that were being held in 
Lebanon? 

A I had no precise knowledge of any hostage efforts, 
hostage-rescue efforts, although Colonel North sometimes 
relayed his great concern over the plight of the hostages and 
the situation in the Middle East. 

Q Were you or Mr. Miller ever asked to provide money 



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to extricate the hostages? 

A I was not asked to provide any money. 

Q Do you know whether Miller was ever asked to 
provide money to aid in efforts to extricate the hostages? 

A I have no recollection of any such request. 

Q Do you recall any discussions that Mr. Miller had 
with Al-Massoudi about efforts to extricate the hostages 
being held in Lebanon? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us what the substance of those 
conversations was? 

A This is secondhand from Mr. Miller. And, according 
to Mr. Miller, Mr. A-Massoudi claimed to have relationships 
with people in Saudi Arabia and perhaps beyond Saudi Arabia, 
that could feasibly be helpful in securing the release of the 
hostages. And his accounts were sufficiently credible to Mr. 
Miller to lead Mr. Miller to entertain proposals from Mr. Al- 
Massoudi about efforts to secure their release. They must 
have discussed it at some length. That's the extent of my 
knowledge. 

MR. KAPLAN: I have no further questions. I want 
to thank you for your cooperation today. 

Could we go off the record for a moment? 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 



EXAMINATION BY COUti^El^ SDR 



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HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. BUCK! 
Q Mr. Gomez, have you ever seen Colonel North's slide 
show, the famous slide show? 
A Yes, several times. 
Q In your opinion, was it accurate? 
A In some respects I can say that it was accurate 
because I have been a witness to some of the things described 
in his show. In other instances, I have no way to assess his 
accuracy. 

Q Did you take some of the photographs that were used 
in the slide show? 
A Yes. 

when did you take those photographs? 
February 1985. 

And where did you take them? 
I n^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l Ano t h e r 
town, a refugee settlement villag^^^^^^^^^^K and in| 
[the main contra base. 
Q What were the circumstances surrounding the trip 
that you took down there? Did you take it for that purpose 
or-- 

A No. I took it to assess the status of the refugees, 
The Office of Public Diplomacy believed that the plight and 
the number of the refugees was grossly ignored, people were 



Q 
A 

Q 
A 




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unaware of it in the United States, and felt that something 
should be done about it. And so I was asked to look at the 
refugee status. 

When I told Colonel North that I would be going 
down there, he suggested that I arrange to go to the main 
camp as well to take pictures there as well. And there were 
many refugees in and around the camp as well. So that 
coincided with the main purpose of my visit. 

Q Approximately how many photographs did you give 
Colonel North? 

A I gave him the undeveloped rolls of film, perhaps 
three rolls--four rolls. 

Q Sixty or 70, in that area? 

A Yes. 

Q How many did he use in his slide show? 

A There were various slide shows. He inserted them 
and took them out according to audiences and circumstances 
and so on. So I would say maybe a dozen overall. 

Q When did you give these slides to Colonel North, or 
the pictures to Colonel North? 

A As soon as I returned from my trip. 

Q Which was? 

A It was about a three- or four-day trip so it would 
have been in early February or mid-February. 

Q Do you know what purpose Colonel North developed 

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the slide show for? 

A Yes, I know the purpose that he related to me why 
he wanted the pictures . And he wanted to portray the 
difficult circumstances under which the resistance was 
operating and living at the time, and refugees as well, their 
needs . 

He said take pictures. He didn't order me, but he 
said I would like to have pictures of anything you can see, 
whatever you see. 

Q , I'm sorry, I forgot, what was the time frame 
again? What was the date of the trip? 

A February. 

Q Of 1985? 

A 1985. 

Q Was this before he met Carl Channell, to your 
knowledge? 

A I don't remember when he first met Mr. Channell. 

Q Is it fair to say that, to your knowledge, the sole 
reason Colonel North developed the slide show was not for 
fundraising purposes? 

A I could not say that because he never told me why 
he developed the slide show. 

Q It had to do with his concern for refugees though 
and not — 

A My part of it, yes, was concern about the status of 

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the situation, the conditions under which they were surviving. 

Q Do you know approximately how many times Colonel 
•'orth used his slide show? 

A I only know about the slides that he showed to 
groups that I was involved with in connection with Mr. 
Channell, and that was maybe five or six. 

Q During your contacts with Mr. Channell 's organiza- 
tions and Colonel North, were you ever present when Colonel 
North solicited funds from any of Mr. Channell 's contributors? 

A . Yes . 

Q How would you describe Colonel North's role in 
relation to Mr. Channell 's contributors? 

A His role was one of explaining the geopolitical 
circumstances, geostrategic circumstances, of Central America 
and implications of the Soviet presence in Nicaragua, Soviet- 
Cuban presence, and describing what that means in terms of 
U.S. national interest. 

Q Were there any other roles that he filled? 

A No. He portrayed the resistance as a noble group, 
well-intentioned group, democratically oriented, and the 
Sandinistas as the devil incarnate. 

Q Was that accurate? 

A Those are my words, but as-- 

Q Well, I'll accept them as your words. 

At the time that Mr. Roberts allegedly used the 



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words to describe IBC as the White House outside the White 
House, are you aware of President Reagan having endorsed IBC 
as a White House outside the White House? 

A I've never heard of such an endorsement. 
Q Have you heard of an endorsement by anybody in the 
White House of IBC during that time period? 
A No. 

MR. BUCK: I have no further questions. Thank you. 
MR. KAPLAN: Off the record. 
[Brief recess . ] 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE 
HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Gomez, you stated earlier that you served for 
19 years and 10 months as a USIA employee. 

Why did you retire from the USIA, or did you 
retire--or did you resign? 

A I retired. In 1980 the Congress passed the Foreign 
Service Reform Act, which had a three-year grace period for 
people to convert to Senior Foreign Service or Civil Service, 
or leave. 

The requirement to convert was challenged by a 
State Department officer, also at Grade 2 which I was, and he 
won his case. And the court ruled that those in that 
category who so desired should have the option to retire 



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yNCLASSIFIED 



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early with an annuity. 

The option was applicable to a very narrow range of 
officers for whom early retirement was an attractive course 
in that one had to have senior rank, which I had, still be 
sufficiently young to be credible as a beginning second- 
career person and, third, , to have sufficient years in to 
make the annuity worthwhile. And I met all those conditions. 

Third, at the time, I was completing what would 
have been a normal tour of duty in Washington, and was 
actively being considered for assignment overseas again, and 
was discussing such assignments with my wife. They included 
Africa, where we had been, and our experiences in Africa and 
Haiti were very unpleasant. And for a variety of reasons, I 
did not want to go overseas again, particularly if it 
included Africa and not going with my family. Our children 
were in high school. 

So it's one of those foreign service experiences, 
when the opportunity arose to leave early, I decided to take 
it. 

MR. KAPLAN: Can we go off the record? 

[Briefly off the record.] 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q You stated, in response to one of Mr. Kaplan's 
earlier questions, that all of the contracts that you had 
with the State Department, even those that were in your name, 



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were really contracts with both you and Rich MiJler. I 
believe you used the term you were an agent for Rich Miller. 

A Yes . 

Q Why were you acting in that capacity? Why weren't 
both of you on the contract and why wasn't the contract with 

IBC? 

A Because, in our understanding, when we first 
established the relationship, it was agreed that I would be a 
consultant to him. I did not have a salary as such. I was 
to be compensated on the basis of our income. And after the 
first purchase order was signed, and it came in my name and 
everything was handled in my name as an individual, we 
discussed it and we agreed that it should be an IBC purchase 
order rather than in my name, my individual name. And we 
requested that it so be done. 

But it wasn't done until two or three purchase 
orders later. 

Q when did you first begin to discuss this arrange- 
ment with Rich Miller, the arrangement of your becoming a 
consultant? 

A I think around November of 1983 as I began to 
explore options for employment post-USIA. November or 
December . 

Q You were exploring in the fall of 1983 the pos- 
sibility of a contract with AID, is that correct? 



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A No, I don't think it's correct. 

[Pause] 
Q Do you remember discussing your future employment 
with the counselor of USIA in the fall of 1983? 
A Yes. 

Q Who was the counselor at that time? 
A I don't remember. If you mentioned the name, I'm 
sure I can recall. It could have been Jack--oh, he just 
died, cancer. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this Gomez Exhibit No. 7. 

[The document referred to was i 
marked for identification as 
Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 7.]i 
BY MR. OLIVER: v_ '' 

Q That is a memorandum from Frank Gomez to the 
counselor--I assume that's the counselor at USIA since you 
were an employee there at that time--dated September 30, 1983. 

A I'm not done reviewing it yet. So identify it as 
you will. 

Q The subject is "Support for Central American 
Training Proposal." 

I would like to ask the witness to examine this 
document, and ask you if this refreshes your recollection 
about the discussions of an AID contract. 



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A I know I wrote — I don't remember who the counselor 

was . 

Q Did you write a proposal for an AID Central 
American training proposal? 

A I don't recall right now. 

Q May I see the document for just a moment? 

Do you recall any response from the counselor to 
that memorandum? 

A No, I don't. 
[Pause] 

Q Do you recall any discussions with John Scafe in the 
Office of the Special Advisor of the Secretary on Central 
America about a Central American training proposal in the 
fall of 1983? 

A Yes . 

Q What do you recall about those discussions? 

A Well, there was something that had come up in an 
interagency context dealing with Central America, and the 
agency, USIA, was interested in developing programs to 
improve the capability of Central American, particularly 
Salvadoran, spokespersons because the situation in El Salvador 
vis-a-vis the press and human rights and the military was 
very serious. And there were a lot of discussions going on 
about that time, rather f reef lowing discussions, almost like 
brainstorming, what can we do, this sort of thing. 



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And I was asked to produce a couple of studies or 
documents or recommendations how might I be used later, what I 
could the agency do immediately to address those problems. | 

Q We were discussing this Central American training 
proposal and you indicated that there have been interagency 
discussion. Did you sit in on this interagency discussion? 

A Probably not. 

Q How did you know about it? 

A Through the bureaucratic channels, my superiors, 
others in the Agency, and USIA, who were dealing with this as 
one of the priority issues. 

Q Do you know what the interagency group that was 
discussing it was called? 

A No . I never sat in at that point. I was not in a 
position that required me to deal with things on a geographic 
basis and so I learned about such discussions from those who 
were dealing with things on a geographic basis. My respon- 
sibilities were fundamentally world-wide, at the time. Broad 
issues . 

Q Have you discussed the six or seven contracts that 
you or IBC had at the State Department with the Inspector 
General? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you tell the Inspector General, at the time, 
that you were acting as an agent for Rich Miller on those 

iumi Aooinrn 



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early contracts? 

A I didn't use those words, but I told him that I 
was a consultant to Mr. Miller and that shortly after 
initiating the first purchase order, we agreed that the rest 
should be in IBC's name. Mr. Miller was my employer. 

Q Did Mr. Miller have anything to do with the 
performance of those contracts that were in your name? 

A Yes, we worked together on them. I did most of the 
work, however, but we conferred regularly on them. 

Q . As a principle, I believe you were the president for 
the Institute for North South Issues, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you the chief executive officer — 

A No. 

Q Of that organization? 

A No, the organization never really got started in 
the way we hoped it would function and the administrative 
matters relating to it were minimal at the outset. I did 
deal with the attorneys in efforts to incorporate, to 
register in the District of Columbia and to get IRS status. 

Q From which Government agencies did INSI receive 
contracts? 

A The only agencies for which we provided services 
were the NED and USIA, I believe. 

Q Did you also have a contract with the Department of 

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State? 

A We had a contract, yes, for roughly a month-- 
September of 1985. 

Q What was the purpose of that contract? 

A The Office of Public Diplomacy had been very eager, 
for many months, to improve its distribution system and had 
wanted us, going back to the Fall of the previous year, to 
assist them with it. Nothing happened until the Summer of 
1985, at which time a series of meetings took place and they 
asked u§ to take on a new task, which was to evaluate the 
present problem, devise a new system, and put it in place. 

All this took place about in--the last meetings--in 
late August and they said, well, can we add something to your 
contract now, that will cover this additional work. That was 
deemed to be rather awkward at the time since we were just 
completing a fiscal year. It was too early to begin for the 
next fiscal year so they looked for a mechanism whereby we 
could get paid, or the services could be provided, and 
someone could get paid for providing those services, without 
adding to the existing IBC contract. It was selected. 

Q So you had two simultaneous contracts? 

MR. PRECUP: Wait a minute. I don't think the 
witness has stated that, Mr. Oliver. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Did the_ cor^tj^c^t^w^^JlUfij(BifH concurrently with an 



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existing with IBC with the Department of State? 

A With two companies, yes. 

Q And you and Rich Miller were the principals on both 
of those contracts? 

A I was the principal for the contract on INSI and 
Mr. Miller was the principal for the contract at State 
Department . 

Q They were both State Department contracts? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you recommend a change in the distribution 
system, as a result of that one-month contract? 

A The one-month contract was designed to evaluate the 
existing system, or lack thereof, and to make specific 
recommendations and those recommendations were made. 

Q And then thereafter, did IBC enter into a contract 
to perform distribution for the Department of State? 

A Yes and to set up the system. 

Q Did you recommend that in the INSI report? 

A I don't recall that we recommended it specifically, 
that IBC get a contract. We recommended certain steps be 
taken and we pointed out some of the shortcomings in the 
existing system. 

Q The contracts that you had with USIA for INSI, were 
those arranged by you or by Mr. Miller? 



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Q But Mr. Miller was the principal on those contracts 
also? 

A No. I was for INSI. 

Q For INSI. And did he have any participation in the 
performance of those contracts? 

A No. 

Q Did Mr- Miller have any participation in the 
performance of the contracts with NED? 

A No. 

Q Was the Office of Latin American Public Diplomacy 
involved, in any way, in your application or in your securing 
of contracts with USIA or with NED? 

A No. 

Q Was the White House or the National Security 
Council involved in any way? 

A No. 

Q I'd like to go back, if I can for a moment, to the j 

I 
discussion you had earlier with Mr. Kaplan about the Heritage 

Foundation grant and I would like to ask the reporter to | 

mark, as Gomez Exhibit 8, a group of documents which relate 

to the Heritage Foundation grant to the Institute for North 

South Issues. The top page is a letter dated September 12, 

1985, from the Institute for North South Issues to Dr. Edwin 

Feulner, and is signed by Rich Miller. 

(The documents referred to were 



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marked for identification as 
Gomez Exhibit No. 8.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I'd like to ask you to examine the first two pages 
of that exhibit, Mr. Gomez, and tell me if you recall that 
proposal, if you have ever seen that proposal before. 



A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 
written. 



The first two pages? 

The first two pages? 

Yes . 

Have you seen that document before? 

I've seen it, after the fact, not when it was 



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Q You did not participate in the preparation of this 
document in any way? 

A No. 

Q when did you first see this document? 

A I believe it was later, when Mr. Miller approached 
me about making arrangements to transfer funds. By later, I 
mean perhaps, October-November. 

Q October-November of 1985? 

A Yes . 

Q Did INSI, in fact, perform these functions for 
return for the 3100,000 grant? 

A Not directly. I know nothing relating to these 
services . 



IINP.! i'SV^ 



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^NCLASSIREO 



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1 Q Well, the proposal indicates that the Institute 

2 will provide all conference arrangements. It seems to 

3 indicate that you will perform this function and you indicate 

4 that you're prepared to begin immediately on the program. It 

5 doesn't indicate that anyone else is going to perform these 

6 services . 

7 A That's right. 

8 Q Did anyone else perform these services? 

9 A I can't be certain that no one performed the 

10 services because I don't know what the final disposition of 

11 the resources was. 



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Q Do you have any information that these services 
were ever performed? 

A No. 

Q Would you turn to the third page of this exhibit, 
which is a letter dated October 15, 1985, to Mr. Richard 
Miller from Edwin Feulner? That letter indicates that they 
are forwarding a check in the amount of $100,000, as requested 
in your letter- 

A Yes . 

Q And says that they would appreciate receiving 
reports from you as to the uses to which these funds have 
been put. It also asks for a tax-exempt letter and it also 
indicates that they assume that these funds will be used in 

your 501(c) ( 3) . Were 



accordance with the stated^jjj 



mniwimn 



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you a 501(c)(3) at that time? 

A No. 

Q Did you see this letter at the time it came in? 

A I can't give you a precise answer whether I saw it 
at the time that it came in or later. I remember discussing 
the matter orally with Mr. Miller because I dealt with no one 
at the Heritage Foundation. 

MR. PRECUP: At about the time it was sent? 
THE WITNESS: At this time, yes. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Did Mr- Miller inform you that INSI had received a 
$100,000 grant from the Heritage Foundation? 

A He informed me that one was coming and then when it 
was received, I learned about it. 

Q When he told you that one was coming, did he tell 
you what it was for? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he tell you it was for? 

A He said it was to conduct information programs, 
political programs and activities, in support of the Nicara- 
guan resistance. 

Q when you say political programs, what do you mean? 

A That's what he told me. I presume it means 
providing for expenses for public affairs activities, 
platforms, conferences, seminars, meetings, travel. 



I 



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Q Did the proposal that you just examine on pages 1 
and 2, indicate, in any way, that this program will be to 
support the democratic resistance in Nicaragua? 

A You say in my reading of it? 

Q Yes . 

A Not in so many words, but it does refer to Central 
America and U.S. foreign and economic policy, the perceptions 
of Central Americans. 

Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Feulner was ever 
informed that you were not a 501(c)(3) organization? 

MR. PRECUP: I have to object to that because, if 
you will note, the letter that is a part of this exhibit, Mr. 
Oliver, you will see that the advanced ruling period begins 
on the date of inception of the organization, which is quite 
a bit antedated, the date of the letter itself. It certainly 
takes time for the IRS to come through with the final letter, 
but can't state that this is retroactive. 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel, I had just asked the witness 
earlier whether or not they were a 501(c)(3) organization at 
the time that they received this grant and his answer was no. 
MR. PRECUP: Yes, but the witness, as you know, is 
not a tax attorney or an attorney at all so please, don't get 
hung up on his lack of knowledge of tax laws. The letter 
speaks for itself and it's part of your exhibit. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 




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Q Do you know whether or not your organization, INSI, | 
was a 501(c)(3) at the time it received this grant? j 

A I don't know exactly when the grant was received 
and exactly what day the Institute became a 501(c)(3). 

Q Why did you answer the question a moment ago in the 
negative? 

A Because I was looking at this date, September 12, 
1985, which, I believe, your question referred to the 
proposal and my understanding, at that time, September 12, 
1985, was that we had not yet received the response from IRS. 

Q If you would turn to page 4 of this exhibit, which 
is a letter from the Institute for North South Issues to Dr. 
Feulner, signed by you, I believe. Is that your signature? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall the circumstances surrounding this 
letter? 

A Somewhat . 

Q At the time you sent this letter, did you attempt 
to determine what had been done on the grant proposal? 

A Yes. I asked Mr. Miller how these funds were used 
and he responded that they were transferred to, I believe, 
the Strategic Studies Institute or — I don't know the exact 
name of the organization--which, in turn, carried out public 
information and other political activities. 

Q In the letter, you say that "we are compiling 

ni!iy_fliLOirirn 



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several final information pieces." 

A Yes. 

Q Did you compile those information pieces? 

A Mr. Miller may have compiled them. I did not. 

Q Why did you say "we"? | 

i 
A I used the "we" in the context of the organization. : 

This letter was drafted by Mr. Miller and presented to me for I 

my signature. 

Q Why didn't he sign the letter? 

A I don't know. 

Q What prompted the letter in May of 1986? 

A I don't know, other than his request for informa- 
tion. 

Q You indicate in the letter that the request had 
been some six months prior to this time. 

A Yes. 

Q What was the cause of the delay? 

A I don't know. 

Q I believe you indicated earlier that the treatment 
of this $100,000 grant was that a $20,000 administrative fee 
was taken out by INSI and then approximately $80,000 — I 
believe that was the figure you recall — was sent to the IC 
account in the Cayman Islands, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did Colonel North direct you to spend that money 

IIMO! Aoc-socn 



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I 



for a program, such as the one outlined in the proposal to ! 

I 
the Heritage Foundation? ! 

A Colonel North didn't direct me, personally, to do ! 

anything with respect to the use of any monies. He may have 1 

i 

directed, or requested, Mr. Miller to use it in some way and [ 
I'm not privy to what they discussed. I only can tell you 
what I was told by Mr. Miller and that was that these monies, 
the monies derived from the Heritage contribution were used 
for information and political activities. That's the extent 
of my knowledge . 

Q I believe you indicated earlier that once money was 
transferred into the IC account, you regarded that money as, 
basically, to be spent at the direction of Colonel North? 

A Yes . 

Q So then you would have known that the money from 
the Heritage Foundation went into an account, whose disburse- 
ments were directed by Colonel North, is that correct? 

A Yes, although at the time, at the discussions of 
the contribution from the Heritage Foundation were taking 
place, the system, the procedure, under which Mr. Miller and 
Mr. North agreed to dispose of funds, was just beginning to 
function. So, it was not clear in my mind exactly how 
transfers would take place, where they would go, and who 
would receive them and so on. 

Q Was your signature required on documents causing 

ii^im APPirirn 



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money to be transferred from IC to other accounts? 
A I believe so. 

Q So you would have been aware of the transfers of 
funds from IC to any other entity? 

A Yes, but I've stated previously that the handling 
of such transfers was routinely performed by Mr. Miller, who 
put a piece of paper in front of me for my signature and 
sometimes I either did not review, or gave a very cursory 
review, to them before signing. So, I cannot say that in 
every instance, I was aware of both the amount of the 
transfer and the destination of the transfer. 

Q At the time that Mr. Miller informed you of the 
proposal that had been presented to the Heritage Foundation, 
or at the time that he informed you that the money had been 
received from the Heritage Foundation, did he tell you that 
the National Strategy Information Center was involved in any 
way? 

A Did Mr. Miller tell me? 
Q Yes. 

MR. PRECUP: May we have the name of that organiza- 
tion? 

MR. OLIVER: National Strategy Information Center. 
MR. GOMEZ: No, he didn't tell me. I don't believe 



he told me. 



BY MR. OLIVER: 



UNCLASSIFlEi 



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Q Do you know Roy Godson? 

A Yes. I don't know him. I've never met him 
personally. I know who he is. 

Q How do you know that? How do you know who Mr. 
Godson is? 

A I've seen him on television. I've seen books that 
he's written. I've seen references to him in the media. 

Q To your knowledge, was he ever involved with the 
Institute for North South Issues in any way? 

A' n6. 

Q To your knowledge, was he involved, in any way, in 
the Heritage Foundation %rant7 

A Yes, but I don't exactly how, only that he and Mr. 
Miller had conversations and I think Mr. Godson had conversa- 
tiona_3^;rtg::olanBl North. -^ 'r\-=f ~^ : .~- ^ _"^^^- -^,.^ ~^ — ^_^ 

.lei: t«^ aBHC^lHrt^pie S^vers9= 




tions — his conversations with Mr. -Godson an3 Mr. Godson's 
conversations with Colonel North? 

A Mr. Sodflon, I believe--I can't t^ certain- -was^ 
acting on behalf Jwl the Herbage Foundation or in connection 
with the Heritage Foundation, but I Cannot go beyond that in 
terms of being more precise with respect to their relation- 
ship. 

I 
Q Did he ever mention to you that any funds from this j 



grant were to be uss/ioAvtX 



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A No. 

Q Would you turn to page five of this exhibit and 
examine that document? It is a memorandum to file--to the 
file Anthony Williams, CPA and INSI director from Richard 
Miller, treasurer, dated December 1, 1986. Subject: 
Heritage Foundation grant of October 15, 1986. 

You are a director of INSI. Is that correct? 

A Right. 

Q Did you receive this memorandum on or about 
December^. 1, 1986? 

A I don't recall seeing this before. 

Q Did you ever discuss the Heritage Foundation grant 
with Mr. Miller in December of 1986 or approximately there- 
abouts? 

MR. PRECUP: May I just make a comment here? I 
don't want to raise an objection. It appears from looking at 
these documents that there may be two different Heritage 
Foundation grants about which the documents speak: one on 
October 15, 1985, one on October 15, 1986. So to say the 
Heritage Foundation grant creates an ambiguity. 

MR. OLIVER: You are right, counsel. It does say 
that. And we have tried to determine through our investiga- 
tion whether or not there were two Heritage Foundation grants 
of $100,000. And what we have been able to determine is that 
there was only one and that this is probably a typographical 



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error in Mr. Miller's memorandum, because we have been able 
to determine that there was only one grant of $100,000 
through INSI from the Heritage Foundation, through the 
ex2unination of bank records and through the testimony of 
other witnesses. 

MR. PRECUP: Yes. And does this document refer to 
$100,000--this is page five now, of Exhibit 8? I don't see 
that. Would you point it out to me? 

MR. OLIVER: This document does not refer to 
$100,000. But there was only one grant in the records of IBC 
or INSI from the Heritage Foundation, and it was for $100,000, 
and it was on October 15, 1985. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Mr. Gomez, is it your belief that the Institute for 
North-South Issues received only one grant from the Heritage 
Foundation during 1985 and 1986? 

A I have been told and read in the press and discussed 
with Mr. Miller another grant, which so far has been--not 
been explained to me. I know nothing of it. 

Q What did he tell you the other grant was for? 

A He said he didn't know. 

Q Did he know of another grant? 

A I have seen references to another grant. 

Q Did he tell you he knew of another grant? 



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UNOIASSIFIE 







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A He said he was trying to find out what it was. 
[Brief discussion off the record. ] 
MR. OLIVER: Mr. Gomez, your recollection of the 
transfer of $80,000 to IC and the documents that we have 
before us don't appear to agree. I wonder if you could tell 
me what really was happening here? What was the mechanism 
that was being utilized for these transfers of funds and this 
correspondence? 

MR. GOMEZ: All of the matters relating to INSI and 
any transfers of funds from INSI for whatever purpose and 
relating to the Heritage Foundation were handled by Mr. 
Miller. My dealings with INSI dealt — or concerned programs 
for which the Institute was created — that is, administration, 
planning — of visiting groups, interchanges, exchanges, and so 
on--international visitors coming to the United States. 

Therefore, I am unable to explain any discrepancies 
that you may find in the records relating to transfers from 
the Heritage Foundation to INSI and beyond. 

MR. OLIVER: Could we take a three-minute break? 
[Brief recess . ] 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Gomez, did you receive statements — bank 
statements--f rom the IC bank accounts in the Cayman Islands? 
A No. 
Q How did you verify what transactions had taken 



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INCLASSiRE.! 



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place in the IC account? 

MR. PRECUP: If you did. 
MR. GOMEZ: I didn't. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Were you aware of any of the transfers from the IC 
account to other entities at Colonel North's direction at the 
time they took place? 
A No. 

Q But your signature was required for each one of 
these transfers. 

A I don't know if it was required for every one. 
Only--I have been shown documents that I signed, and I 
recognize having signed them. What I was signing, however, I 
don't recall, and I can't say that I signed every one--every 
transfer that ever took place. 

Q Have you ever heard of an organization or an entity 
known as Parke-Feld Enterprises? 
A No. 

MR. PRECUP: Parke-Feld? 

MR. OLIVER: Parke-Feld — P-A-R-K-E-F-E-L-D. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Do you have any knowledge why money would have been 
transferred from the IC bank accounts to Parke-Feld Enter- 
prises? 

A No. 



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Q Have you ever discusaed the Heritage Foundation 
grant with any officials of the Heritage Foundation? 

A No. 

Q Do you know Walt Raymond? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you first meet Walt Raymond? 

A In 1983--no, wait a minute, I'm sorry--probably 
1981. I was at the State Department and obviously working in 
i Bureau of Public Affair; 




you meet Mr. Raymond 
at a later time when he was serving in another capacity? 

A I saw him later when he went to the NSC as director 
of public information or assistant or deputy assistant in 
charge of public diplomacy or information--policy . I forget 

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the exact title. 

However, I saw him very rarely in that capacity — 
that context. 

Q Did you participate in meetings at the White House 
in which Mr. Raymond participated in 1984, 1985, 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q What were those meetings? 

A They were general meetings to discuss planned 
information policy relating to Central America. 

Q \ Did you participate in a program designed to 
influence the congressional vote on aid to the contras in 
1985 or 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Could you tell me about your participation in those 
activities? 

A Well, this was a program — an information program — 
which Mr. Channell and his organizations asked IBC to 
undertake. And it entailed a good deal of research on 
congressional districts and voting records of members of 
Congress from those districts with respect to assistance to 
the Nicaraguan resistance. 

It also concerned identifying key media in those 
districts in which to direct prograuns--through which to 
direct programs and coordination of a speaker's program in 
those areas also. 



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My role in this program was rather marginal, 
however, in that I frequently talked to researchers and 
staffers about their progress on the work so that it would be 
finished and so that it could be presented in time for a 
meeting with Mr- Channell. 

Q What was Walt Raymond's role in that effort? 

A None, to my knowledge. 

Q I believe my question was whether or not you 
participated in meetings in the White House in which Mr. 
Raymond participated. 

A Yes. 

Q But the meetings in which he participated with you 
had nothing to do with the legislative effort. 

A That's correct. This--my meetings with him were 
perhaps a year, a year and a half before anything dealing 
with the legislative effort. 

MR. OLIVER: I'd like to ask the reporter to mark 
this document as Gomez Exhibit No . 9 . It is a memorandum from 
Oliver North to Robert McFarlane dated March 20, 1985, and 
the subject is timing and the Nicaraguan assistance vote. 
It's--there is an attachment to it entitled "Chronological 
Event Checklist". I'd like to ask you to show that document 
to the witness and ask him to examine it, in particular the 
Chronological Event Checklist. 



m RRRiRf j 



[The document referred to was 



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iNCUSSlfitS 



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marked for identification as 
Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 9. ] 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Have you ever seen the Chronological Checklist 
before? 

A I haven't gotten to it. 

Q My question is whether you've ever seen this 
Chronological Event Checklist or a similar document in the 
Sctme format. 

A The State Department Office of Public Diplomacy 
sometimes created chronologies with forthcoming events with 
action assignments for various people. And my name may have 
appeared on one or more of those. 

Q Did you see those documents? 

A Sometimes. Now, you asked whether I have seen this 
one. I had not seen it at the time — February of '85 — March 

20. 

Q Your name appears--or the name Gomez appears--in 
paragraph five of the first page of the Chronological Event 
Checklist, 'it indicates that the responsibility shared with 
Colonel North and the NSC is to encourage U.S. media reporters 
to meet individual FDN fighters with proven combat records in 
the media field. Was that your assignment? 

A That was something that we had been doing routinely. 

Q And did you work with Colonel North in carrying out 



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this responsibility? 

A Not in a direct way, no. _ 

We were eager to get interviews for anybody on the 
resistance side throughout this entire period. So this is a 
rather routine sort of thing. f 

Q Were you aware of the responsibilities that these 
other people were given in this Chronological Event Checklist? 

A Has been de-classified? 

Q Yes, it has been de-classified. 

A I would have to say that I wasn't aware of the 
detail of it and that my knowledge of it is limited to some — 
two things: one, input from myself and from Richard Miller 
regarding some things that we thought ought to be done vis a 
vis the media and the resistance; and two, whatever aspects 
of this that would relate to the Office of Public Diplomacy. 
But I have not seen this document in this form. 

Q Have you seen a similar document in this form? 

A As I stated previously, I have seen documents 
prepared by LPD — Office of Public Diplomacy — at the State 
Department with a similar format. In other words, they're 
identifying forthcoming events and trying to anticipate 
planned actions and assigning planning responsibility or 
program responsibility to individuals. 

Q Did Colonel North's name appear on those chrono- 
logical events checklists? 



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A I don't recall. 

Q Did Mr. Raymond's name appear on them? 

A I believe so. 

Q What was your relationship with Mr. Raymond during 
the period that you performing your contract for the Depart- 
ment of State? 

A I had very limited contact with him. Sometimes he 
attended a meeting. 

Q What meetings would he attend? 

A Perhaps a meeting in Otto Reich's office or a 
conference--a larger meeting in a conference room at the 
State Department. 

Q Did you ever attend any meetings with him in the 
White House? 

A Maybe once or twice. 

Q Do you remember what those meetings might have been 
about? 

A I remember seeing in the--same thing: information 
programs, strategies. 

Q Do you know Dan Kuykendahl? 

A Yes. 

Q How do you know Dan Kuykendahl? 

A I met him through Mr. Miller, because the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation, of which Mr. Kuykendahl is a represen- 
tative, was a client of IBC. 




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mm 



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Q Did you attend meetings which took pl ace in Mr . 

Kuykendahl 's--or in a townhouse on Capitol Hilll 





A I have attended meetings there, yes. 

Q What were the purposes of those meetings? 

A Some were to brief various representatives of 
groups supportive of the White House policy on what was going 
on in Central America. Some were to plan information-related 
strategies--congresstonal-related strategies. 

Q Who else attended those meetings on a regular basis? 

A Well, I only attended one or two of those meetings, 
so I can't say who attended regularly. There were represen- 
tatives of various public interest groups around Washington 
and of course Mr. Kuykendahl, Mr. Channell sometimes. 

Q Did Mr. North — Colonel North attend any of those 

meetings? 

A I believe I saw him at one meeting at Kuykendahl 's . 
Q Were those meetings primarily to discuss legislative 

strategy? 

A Well, I didn't discuss or attend but maybe one of 
the meetings that had to do with anything relating to 
legislative strategy, so I cannot characterize other meetings 
that may have taken place. 

The one that I attended had to do with legislative 
strategy, yes. 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q Do you remember when that meeting took place? 

A No. 

Q Could it have been February 11, 1985? Does that 
sound like the approximate date? 

A It could be. 

Q Did it have to do with the vote that was to take 
place in 1985 on contra aid? 

A Well, I've lost sense of the timing of what was 
being debated on the Hill and meetings and so on. It could 
have been. 

I know that there was a lot of activity among 
various people concerned with the issue and that meetings 
were taking place in a lot of places around Washington in 
support — in an effort to support the White House. 

Q Did Rob Owen attend any of those meetings? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Do you recall any meetings with Colonel North in 
which you and Mr. Kuykendahl and Rob Owen and Rich or Jonathan 
Miller occurred--and Rich or Jonathan Miller occurred? 

A At any time? 

Q At any time. 

A Yes. I can't say that every one of those persons 
was present. There — in the fall of 1985--I'm sorry--the fall 
of 1984, when we were--after we had more or less established 
a relationship — the working relationship--with Colonel North 



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UNCLASSIFJE! 



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as far as the information efforts were concerned, Mr. Miller 
and Colonel North and Mr. Owen--we may have all come together 
in a meeting at the time in Colonel North's office. 

But I don't remember--! can't associate such a 
meeting with any specific progreun or activity. Just one of 
many meetings. 

I do recall once when Mr. Owen presented a--some 
suggestions --a written memorandum--on how to gain favorable 
publicity for the resistance leadership. And it was handed 
to me. We looked at it--Rich Miller and I looked at it--and 
decided not to pay any attention to it. 

Q Who handed it to you? 

A Owen. 

Q Did you ever get a call from Jonathan Miller asking 
you to contact Adolfo Calero to take out major fund-raising 
ad? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever contact Adolfo Calero about a major 
fund-raising ad? 

A No. 

Q You indicated that you were working on a project 
for Mr. Channell that had to do with examining congressional 
districts — medias in those districts and that sort of thing. 

Would you describe to me what IBC's role was in' 
that effort and who in the XBC organization carried out the 



mo in the IBC organizatic 

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responsibilities related to that requirement? 

A Our job, fundamentally, was to relate congressional 
districts and votes concerning aid to the resistance to media 
and media channels, avenues in order to carry out a program 
designed to influence public opinion in those districts. 

Q Who did that on the IBC staff? 

A Well, Mr. Miller oversaw the effort generally. 
Steve Schwartz was in charge of the political--the congres- 
sional side of things. Rafael Flores was looking at the 
congressional districts also, doing a lot of research on that. 

Q Was this in 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q I'm just trying to put it in a time frame. There 
were two votes--one series of votes in '85 and one in '86. 

A There was no program in 19 85. This was in 1986, 
beginning in the fall and leading up to January-February. I 
think the vote was moving on the calendar constantly. 

And other staffers were concerned with identifying 
media in each of those districts and planning appearances by 
people in those districts. 

Q Do you know Bruce Cameron? 

A Yes . 

Q When did you first meet Bruce Cameron? 

A I don't recall the circumstances under which we 
first met. 



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■•.UA Ktromma CO.. mc. 
)o: C Strcti. N E 25 

Waihinttixi. DC 20002 
(202) H6-«6M 



UNCLASSIFIED 



161 



MR. OLIVER: I'd like to show you a document, and 
then we can discuss this . 

I'd like to ask the reporter to mark this as Gomez 
Exhibit No. 10. 

Do you have a copy of that document, Mr. Gomez? 
MR. GOMEZ: Yes. 

MR. OLIVER: The document is a memorandum for Spitz 
Channell from Rich Miller and Frank Gomez; subject: freedom 
program; dated January 9, 1986. 

[The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Gomez Deposition Exhibit No. 
10.] 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Do you remember this memo? Do you recognize this 
memo? 

A I have to read it. 

I recall the circumstances. Whether I recall the 
memo specifically, I can't say. 

Q Could you tell me what you remember about the 
circumstances? 

A Basically what is reflected in the memo. 
Q Who is the confidential source that's referred to 
in this memo? 

A I don't know. At this point, I was dealing on a 

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HLL£ft ftCPOfmNG CO., MC. 

507 C Suw. N E 2 5 

W^uhiogtoa. D C 20002 
(202) >46*6666 



UNCUSSIFIED 



162 



very limited basis with Mr. Channell and the programs related 
to him, although I was briefed from time to time by Mr. 
Miller on his relationship with Mr. Channell and the Bruce 
Cameron relationship also. 

Q Who briefed you? 

A Mr. Miller. 

Q And what did he tell you about the Bruce Cameron- 
Spitz Channell relationship? 

A Precisely this--what's in this memo. 

Where is the reference to the confidential source? 

Q If you look in the second paragraph, it says, "We 
know Bruce personally, but through a confidential source we 
have learned that he is in dire need of a job. It has 
occurred to us, therefore, with some extra thinking by our 
source, that he could be extremely helpful in the Central 
American freedom program. " 

That doesn't help you remember who your source 
might have been? 

A No, I don't know who the source is. 

Q Do you remember what caused you to send this 
memorandum to Mr. Channell? 

A It was Mr. Channell 's concern to do something on 
the Hill--to be effective on the Hill. Up until that time he 
had been primarily relying on Mr. Kuykendahl for assessments 
and contacts. And as you know, Mr. Kuykendahl is a Republican 

imni Aooirirn 



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uixa acpoimHa co.. mc. 

50- C Sueci. N E 2 5 

WuhuifTon. C 20002 
(20;) X*-666« 



UNCLASSIFIED 



163 



and former member of Congress. And it was all--it had long 
been felt within the Channell organization that they should 
have someone on the Democratic side who could work with them 
also. 

Q Do you know whether or not Bruce Cameron was hired 
by Spitz Channell? 

A I believe he was. 

Q Was he hired through PRODEMCA? 

A I don't know what the administrative relationship 
was--or arrangement. 

Q And what did he do for Mr. Channel? 

A Did analysis of the forthcoming vote, how things 
would stack up, maybe personal contact--what we would 
describe as lobbying. 

Q what was your involvement in the legislative effort 
in 1986? 

A None . 

Q Did you attend the meetings where the legislative 
strategy was discussed? 

A One, maybe. 

Q This was at Mr. Kuykendahl's townhouse. 

A One — you asked specifically previously about 
legislative meetings at Mr. Kuykendahl's house. I attended 
one meeting there. 

And there were other meetings with strictly 



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HILLU REPORTINa CO . WC. 
W; C Sireti. N E 2 5 

Wuhinilon. D C 2000: 
(2021 S46-6666 



UNCLASSIFIED 



164 



Channell representatives in our offices which took place in a 
conference room adjacent to my office, and so I saw the 
meetings taking place and sometimes sat in for a few minutes 
at those meetings. 

Q And they were primarily concerned with the legisla- 
tive effort? 

A No, they were concerned with things overall--that 
is, public information, research, the legislative effort, 
other projects that Channell was working on. 

Q Were any of those meetings concerned primarily with 
the legislative effort? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you attend any of those? 

A I don't know how many. There were a lot of 
meetings. I may have attended two or three. 

Q Do you remember who else attended those meetings 
that were concerned with the legislative effort? 

A Dan Kuykendahl attended from time to time. Bruce 
Cauneron attended, although I do not recall myself attending a 
meeting in our offices where Bruce Cameron was also there. I 
do recall attending meetings when Spitz Channell and Dan 
Kuykendahl were there and others from our staff. 

Q Did Penn Kemble attend those meetings? 

A In our office? Yes, I believe he attended one. At 
least, I saw him at one meeting in our office. I did not 



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HLLOt RCPOmiNa CO.. MC. 

50; C SutcT N E 2 5 

WuhlDgtoQ. DC 20001 



UNCUSSIFI! 



165 



attend the meeting. 

Q what was Penn Kemble's role in this program that 
you were conducting for Mr. Channel 1? 

A He played no specific role, as far as I am able to 
determine. But as I related to you earlier, I am looking at 
this from some distance, because I did not attend that 
meeting. I don't even remember whether he attended the 
Kuykendahl meeting. 

The only thing I remember is that he attended 
meetings on this subject at our offices. 

Q Do you remember a luncheon meeting on September 10, 
1984 which took place in your offices at 1607 New Hampshire 
Avenue? 

A Yes. 

Q With Rich Miller, Jonathan Miller, and Oliver North? 

A Yes. I remember that a meeting took place. 

Q What was the purpose of that meeting, and what can 
you remember about it? 

A It was to discuss programs — information, public 
diplomacy programs — relating to the State Department office 
and their relationship to the resistance. That's all. 

Q Why was Oliver North there? 

A Because he had been working in conjunction with the 
Office of Public Diplomacy at the State Department. 

This was shortly after I had met him for the first 

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MLLn RVOnnHQ CO., MC. 
J07 C Sum. N E 25 

Wuhmitoo. DC 20002 

r?07\ UA.AAAA 



UNCLASSIFIED 



166 



time, which I said was at a swearing-in ceremony for Ambas- 
sador whatever to Guatemala. I'm sorry. And I believe it 
was primarily to get acquainted better and to understand 
roles, to discuss programs. 

Q Did you discuss the nature of your State Department 
relationship with Mr. Miller or Colonel North at that 
meeting — with Mr.' Jonathan Miller? 

A No, I don't think so — not in any specific sense. 
As I recall, we were discussing programs, we may 
have discussed what we do for the State Department--you know, 
we write articles; we translate articles; we serve as 
interpreters; we debrief visitors; we arrange media events, 
press conferences, and so on. 

Q Was it shortly after that meeting that you began 
work on the secret contract for the Department of State? 

A No. 

Q Was it shortly after that that you — 

A You said September 11, 1984. 

Q Was it shortly after that that you entered into an 
agreement with the State Department that was substantially-- 
for a substantially larger fee than you had previously been 
obtaining? 

A Yes. It began the next fiscal year. 

Q Was that discussed at that meeting? 



A No, I don't think so. 

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WLUjt ngromma Co.. mc. 
)07 C Screti N E 25 

Waihinpon. O C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



167 



Q Do you recall a meeting — a lunch — on June 5, 1985 
at the IBC offices with yourself, Jonathan Miller, Otto 
Reich, and Oliver North? 

A June 5, 1985. 

Q Did you call a luncheon with those participants at 
your office around that time? 

A Yes . 

Q What was the purpose of that luncheon? What was 
the business that was discussed there? 

A Public diplomacy. 

Q Did you discuss the legislative effort at all? 

A I can't say specifically what was discussed beyond 
public diplomacy programs. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Otto Reich or Jonathan 
Miller the work you were doing for Spitz Channell? 

A No. Only perhaps to the extent that we were 
performing work — services — for them. But not in greater 
detail, no. We might have told them that X, Y, or Z event 
was going to take place if it was useful for them to know 
about it. 

We sometimes kept them abreast of Channel 1-sponsored 
activities because they coincided or conflicted with things 
that the Office of Public Diplomacy was carrying out. 

Q Did you regard what you were doing for Spitz 
Channell to be complementary to what you were doing for the 

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■UJH NEKMITINO CO.. MC. 
507CSirec. NE 25 

Waihiofion. DC 20002 
(202) M«-M« 



yNCUSSlFlED 



168 



Office of Public Diplomacy at the Department of State? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you discuss the fundraising activities of Spitz 
Channell's organizations that you were involved in with Otto 
Reich or Jonathan Miller? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Because it was a separate matter for another 
client. 

We did discuss the fundraising for the public 
information program that began in the fall of 1985 and went 
into '86, yes. 

Q Why? 

A Because they involved the use of various speakers 
that sometimes had contact with the Office of Public Diplo- 
macy. 

Q Do you recall a meeting on February 11, 1985 with 
Colonel North, Walt Raymond, Jonathan Miller, yourself, and 
Otto Reich to discuss the NRF fundraising dinner? 

A No. I remember attending a meeting relating to the 
NRF fundraising dinner, but I don't remember where or when it 
took place and who participated. 

Q I'd like to ask the--do you recall a message to 
Colonel North from you and/or Rich Miller relating to Spark 
to call off Rizo in June of 1985? Do you know what that 



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FIE! 



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I 



would have referred to? 

A I don't remember a memo or anything written on that 
subject . 

Q A phone call — a phone message. 

A I remember speaking to Mr. North about Mr. Rizo and 
also Mr. Miller being concerned about Mr. Rizo's activities. 

Q What was the concern? 

A I believe it had to do with the Nicaraguan refugee 
fund dinner and recovering profits from it, if there were any. 

Q Who was Mr. Rizo? 

A Mr. Rizo — I think his first name is Alvaro-- 
A-L-V-A-R-0 — is a Nicaraguan-born U.S. resident — maybe a 
citizen; I don't know--who was working on behalf of--either 
as a volunteer or paid; I don't know either — of the Nicaraguan 
Democratic Resistance. 

I'm sorry, that's not the right name--the FDN. The 
resistance was created later. 

But again, I was — the reason I'm vague — and I'm 
sorry for sounding vague — is because I was on the periphery 
of whatever issue Mr. Rizo and Mr. Miller and Mr. North were 
concerned with. 

Q Did Mr. Miller--Rich Miller--have any expertise in 
Central America prior to the forming of IBC? 

A A little, in that he had been director of Public • 
Affairs for Aici ..at .Jibe ^&«t«i FOw»i*t««ent at the same time that 



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HU.eR HCPOimNQ CO.. INC. 
507 CSirm. NE 25 

Wuhiflston. D C 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



170 



I was deputy assistant secretary of state for Public Affairs. 
And in that capacity, I did a good deal of public speaking 
and work, planning on — at the time — San Salvador and to a 
lesser extent Nicaragua. 

Mr. Miller attended meetings — planning meetings — at 
that time at the State Department and had to be very familiar 
with not only the public diplomacy issues — public information 
issues--but also AID programs in the countries of the region. 

Q Do you recall a meeting — this may have been 
referred to earlier, and I may have forgotten. Do you recall 
a meeting in July of 1985 between you and Rich Miller, 
Colonel North, Spitz Channell, and Dan Conrad at which 
Colonel North indicated to Channell and Conrad that from that 
point forward they should forward the money that they raised 
through their fundraising activities to IBC? 

A I don't remember the circumstances of such a 
meeting, if I attended. 

I believe I would have recalled that, given from 
whom the instruction or the direction was coming from. That 
would have made an impression on me, so-- 

Q In June of 1985, early in your relationship--IBC ' s 
relationship with Spitz Channell 's organizations — you 
assisted in the organization of a briefing followed by a 
dinner at which a check for $50,000 or $60,000 was presented 
to Mr. Calero directly by Mr. Channell. Is that correct? 



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MXCN HtPOfmHO CO . MC. 
W7 C Sum N E 2 5 

Wufciofton. D C 20O02 
(202) V44-MM 



yNCUSsra 



171 



A I don't know how much money was presented. Some 
money was presented to Mr. Calero. 

Q But you knew that money was presented directly to 
Mr. Calero by Mr. Channell at the conclusion of this fund- 
raising event? 

A Yeah. Whether I was actually there when it was 
presented, I don't remember. But I understood that some 
money was presented to Mr. Calero. 

Q Well, if you can't recall the meeting at which 
Colonel. North may have instructed Channell and Conrad to 
funnel the money--or to give the money to IBC, what is your 
recollection of how IBC came to be the recipient of these 
large sums of money from Spitz Channell 's organization? 

A My recollection is that Mr. Miller informed me of 
the procedures to be followed. 

Q But you don't remember participating in the meeting 
where this — where Mr. North told Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad 
this was the way it was to be done. 

A No, I don't remember that meeting. 

Q Did IBC have any relationship with Bragg Communica- 
tions or with Lyn Nofziger that related in any way to Central 
America or to the Democratic Resistance? 

A In late fall of '85 or early '86, Mr. Channell 
sought Mr. Miller's recommendations in order to acquire 
additional political advice across the board. And-- 



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507 C StlCTI. N E 2 5 

Vuhuifion. D C 20002 
unit Mi-ftf^b 



mmm 



172 



Q Was there a financial arrangement between IBC and 
Bragg Communications or Lyn Nofziger? 

A Not that I am aware of. 

Q You mentioned earlier LPD and Mr. John Blacken. 
What was your relationship with John Blacken? What did you 
perceive his role to be with IBC? 

A After--there was a great deal of turnover in the 
Office of Public Diplomacy at a certain point. Ambassador 
Reich had gone to Venezuela, was phasing out, Jonathan Miller 
was either working at the NSC or spending a good deal of time 
there. 

And Mr. Blacken was — became the acting director of 
the office or the de facto director of the office. And he 
was the person with whom I maintained my most direct contact. 

Q This would have been in 1985 or 1986? 

A Both. 

Q Do you know Jake Jacobowitz? 

A Yes . 

Q What was his relationship to IBC? 

A He was one of the members of the staff of LPD. And 
in that capacity, he and I consulted from time to time on 
projects that we were both working on--sometimes jointly, 
sometimes separately, but related. 

Q Was he the person to whom the presentation by IBC 
was made for the contract which was classified secret? 
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■ioi ntnmima CO.. •«. 
C Siicri. NE 2 5 

ohinfion, D C. 20002 



yNCliSSlREI 



173 



A No. That presentation was made to Mr. Blacken, and 
I don't remember the timing. I don't think Mr. --yeah — Mr. 
Reich. 

Q Did Mr. Jacobowitz's sister work for IBC? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q When did she come to work for IBC? 

A She started September 1, 1985. 

Q Was she involved in any way in the presentation of 
the IBC proposal to the Department of State for the contract 
that was classified as secret? 

A No. 

Q You were the one that made the presentation to the 
State Department. Is that correct? 

A Yes. Mr. Miller and myself, yes. 

Q And you do not recall Jake Jacobowitz or his sister 
being involved in the negotiation or presentation of that 
contract. 

Your answer is no? 

A They did not participate in the negotiation or 
presentation . 

Q How did Jake Jacobowitz's sister come to be 
employed by IBC? 

A In about June or July I met her in the hallway of 
the Department. She was introduced to me by him, and he 
proceeded to go on to a meeting or whatever. 



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507 C Streti. N E 25 

Tuhmtioa. DC. 20002 



wmM 



174 



We were in a narrow corridor, and we spoke for a 
few minutes, as people do when they meet for the first time. 
I asked her the usual questions about where she was from and 
what she did. 

She explained it, and she said that she had been 
considering moving to Washington and looking for a job in 
Washington. 

And I said, "Well, come see us. Maybe we can give 
you an assist . " 

So she came to see me and described her skills in 
greater detail, and I said that kind of expertise--! concluded 
that that kind of expertise was something that we had been 
looking for in our of f ice--computers and distribution and 
marketing and so on--and that we had had proposals from the 
State Department to get involved in a distribution program-- 
improving their distribution system and that she might fit 
into that. 

I didn't talk to her again for several weeks. She 
went back to New York. 

In the meantime, I interviewed other people for 
that, because the State Department had become very exercised 
about the need to begin working on this. And when it became 
clear that they wanted us to move very quickly to get things 
straightened out in the distribution I contacted her, and we 
discussed salary and services and scope of responsibilities. 



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u«j.eii mpoflTwo co.. mc. 

107 C Strert. N E 2 5 

Wuhuiiton. D C 20002 



UNCIASHD 



175 



Q This was September 1, 1985? 

A September 1 is when she started working. 

Q Am I correct in recalling that August of 1985 was 
when you had the one-month contract from INSI? 

A No, it was September of ' 85--September 1 to 
September 30, 1985. 

Q To analyze the distribution system. 

A Yes. 

Q And then it was after that period of time that you 
began work on the large — 

A Of the new contract. 

Q --new contract. 

A Yes . 

Q When did you actually sign the contract? 

A I didn't sign it. Mr. Miller--if anyone signed it 
on our side, it would have been signed by Mr. Miller, and 
that was, I think, in September of last year--or August of 
last year. I don't remember exactly when. 

Q Do you remember any problems that the Defense 
Investigative Service has had in trying to obtain the 
information from IBC that they needed in order to complete a 
security clearance for your offices? 

A I remember their--our efforts to contact them and 
to arrange meetings and to follow up on calls from them and 
to provide information to them and the difficulty of getting 

iiMPiiiLQincn 



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MILLER REPORTINQ CO.. INC. 
JOT CSciccc, NE 25 

Washinpon. D C 20002 




176 



them to respond to our requests, yes. 

I remember also hearing back from the State 
Department that they had alleged to the State Department that 
we were not being cooperative. And we were stunned by that, 
because it was in our interest to be as cooperative as 
possible . 

And I got the impression that it was just a 
bureaucratic problem. 

Q Did you write a letter to the State Department 
telling them that those complaints were unfounded? 

A I don't recall writing a letter. 

Q Do you recall a time when Colonel North used his 
influence with the Department of State to make an emergency 
payment to IBC in response to a bill that--of April 1985? 

A Yeah, I remember both the period under discussion 
as well as media accounts about that. 

Q Could you tell me why Colonel North was involved in 
that? 

A I can conjecture, and that is Mr. Miller was 
impatient with the slowness of the payments from the State 
Department. Getting paid from State had always been a 
problem. And he asked Mr. North to use his good offices to 
get us paid in a timely fashion. 

Q And did he do that? 

A I understand he did. 



UNCUSSffi 



617 



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MILLER IWPOOTwa CO.. MC. 
507 C Seitn, N E 2 5 

WuhinfTon. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



/?? 



Q And were you paid? 
A Yes . 

Q At that time, was the State Department your largest 
single client? Did you have any other clients at that time? 
A Yes . 

Q Who were--I don't want to ask you about your other 
clients that are unrelated to this, but I would like to ask 
you whether or not there were any--if you had any clients who 
paid you as much as the State Department did. 

MR. PRECUP: Can you specify the time a little more 
carefully? You say at this time, but — 

MR. OLIVER: I'm talking about April of 1985. 
MR. GOMEZ: Okay. I believe State was the largest. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q How much of your time were you spending on the 
State Department contract? 
A Almost all of it. 

Q what were you doing during that period of time? 
A Translating documents; writing articles, letters to 
the editor; planning strategies. 
[Brief recess . ] 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Would it be correct to say that your main source of 
income during that period of time was the State Department 



contract? 



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MILLEU REPORTtNO CO.. INC. 

507 C Siicct, N E 25 

Waihtflgton, D C 20002 
(202) 146-6666 



A 

Q 
A 



ONCLASSIFIEO 

You're talking 1985? 

I'm talking about the spring of 1985. 

Yeah. 



/?r 



Q Since the formation of IBC, other than the income 
you received from Spitz Channell's organization, was the 
State Department your largest source of income in 1985 and 
1986? 

[Brief recess . ] 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q On the IBC contract, Mr. Gomez, did you and/or Rich 
Miller have a meeting with Mr. Robert Kegan in the fall of 
1986 to discuss the services that you have performed for the 
Department of State? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the purpose--what was discussed at that 
meeting? 

A Well, as I recall, Mr. Kegan had just recently come 
on board as the new head of the Office of Public Diplomacy. 
Or he was actually serving in Elliott Abrams ' office. I 
think John Blacken was still there in Public Diplomacy. But 
he was going to move into it or was already moving or 
something. 

And we just briefed him about what we were doing. 

Q Did you submit a written report to him? 

A I don't recall one. 



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imjLB* mKttnta co.. mc 

)07 C Sam. N E 2 5 

Wnlu^rixi. O C 20002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



179 



Q And on the basis of that briefing, did he certify 
that the work had been performed? 

A I don't recall any discussion of any certification 
of any kind with him in that meeting. 
We're talking fall — 

Q Of 1986. 

A — of '86. 

Q I believe the contract was signed in early September 
1986. Is that correct? 

A \ Yes. 

Q And you were paid for the performance of that 
contract in October and November of 1986. Is that correct? 

A I don't remember when the payment was. 

Q The sum was — 

A I'm sorry. I was thinking 1985. 

You're talking about a meeting with Mr. Kegan — 

Q Yes. 

A --after he had been in the Office of Public 
Diplomacy as head — 

Q Yes. 

A — after the contract had expired. And it was to 
certify for him — for us to render a report. 
Q Yes. 

A Yes. A report was presented. 
Q A report was presented prior to your being paid. 



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HIIXIR REPORTIMO CO.. IMC. 
507 C Sutct. N E 2 5 

VuhiniTon. D C 20002 



wmif 



180 ! 



A I don't know if --yes, I think so. 

Q How did you pay the employees of IBC for the work 
on the State Department contract between October 1, 1985 and 
September 30, 1986 if you had not--were not paid by the State 
Department until after the contract had been performed? 

A With great difficulty. We literally paid it out of 
our own salaries. We had no money. We were using whatever 
other income we had from other clients to meet expenses and 
pay the employees. And in so doing, we took virtually no 
income o.urselves . 

Q Did you pay the employees out of the funds you 
received from Spitz Channell's organizations? 

A And others . 

Q Your answer is yes. 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall a check for $60,000 being received by 
the Institute for North-South Issues from a Mr. James 
MacAleer? 

A I have never heard of it. 

Q Do you know of a $60,000 payment from INSI to IC 
from a contributor in Pennsylvania in the fall of 1985? 

A I have seen references in. some accounts somewhere, 
whether the media or some other report somewhere about--oh, 
it came up from our accountants. They asked me if I knew 
about such a payment, and I said no. 




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»KL£» KEPORTINa CO . INC 

107 C Sirtct, N E 2 5 

ruhinjTon D C 20002 
2021 M6-«666 



IJNCUSSiFIE 



181 



Q Did you ask Mr. Miller about it? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he say? 

A He said he didn't know. 

Q He said he didn't know that such a payment had been 
made . 

A He said he didn't know what it was. 

Q Do you recall a contribution to IC from a Mr. 
Herbert Barness in the amount of $5,000? 

A I don't recall ever hearing the name or any 
contribution associated with it. 

Q Did IBC prepare a report on the activities of 
organizations in the United States who were supporting the 
Sandinistas? 

A I don't know whether the report can be characterized 
precisely as you have characterized it, but a report was 
prepared on organizations which are critical of the admini- 
stration and may be favorably disposed to the Sandinistas. I 
wouldn' t-- 

Q When was that report prepared? 

A It began in the fall. 

Q Of what year? 

A Of 1986. 

Q Who paid for the report? 

A Mr. Channell. 



yNCLA!;!;iFiFn 



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UlLLEn REPOHTINQ CO.. INC. 

507 C Suctt. N E 2 5 

WashinjTon. D C 20002 



UNCUSSIRi 



II 



182 



Q What did you do with the report? 

A I didn't do anything with the report. 

Q What did IBC do with the report? How was it 
disseminated? Do you know? 

A Mr. Miller presented it to Mr. Channell. 

Q Who worked on the report on the IBC staff? 

A Mr. Miller, Ms. Jacobs. The principal work was 
done by those two, and other staffers were-- 

Q Did Oliver North have anything to do with that 
report? 

A Not to my knowledge. In fact, I don't believe Mr. 
Miller had any contact with Mr. North after November. 

Q You testified earlier that your--IBC ' s--contractual 
relationship with Mr. Channell 's organizations was terminated, 
I believe, in August of 1986. Is that correct? 

A July or August. 

Q And when--did there come a time in December of 1986 
that IBC was retained once again by Spitz Channell 's organiza- 
tions? 

A Yes. I don't know the exact time of it. 

Q What was the purpose of that arrangement with Mr. 
Channell 's organizations? 

A I believe it was to assist in--one, preparing this 
report, for one thing; and second, to assist in the public 
relations for Channell and the publicity that was being--had 

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HLLn NEPOtrriHa co . inc. 

507 C Stitrt. N E 2 5 

Wuhioiion. D C J0002 
12021 M6-6«66 



ONCUSSIFIED 



163 



begun around that time. 

Q What did you do--what services did you perform for 
Mr. Channel in regard to the latter subject? 

A I personally performed no services. 

Mr. Miller performed services, and I think it was 
primarily counsel on how to handle certain issues. 

Q You were not involved in any way in that aspect of 
your relationship with Mr. Channell? 

A No. 

Q _ Were you and Mr. Miller equal partners in IBC in 
1986? 

A We had an agreement which we called a partnership 
agreement that began in 1986, but he referred to himself as 
the managing partner or the senior partner. And in effect, 
there was very little in the relationship that was different 
from the earlier relationship — my work as a consultant to him. 

Q Did you split the fees from clients with Mr. Miller? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you split the fee which-- 

A We split profits — I'm sorry--not fees. He handled 
all administrative matters, all accounts--banking, accounting, 
everything- -and the decisions that go along with those. From 
time to time, I was consulted. Other times I wasn't. 

Q So in effect, you worked for Mr. Miller. Is that 



a ii J i 



what you're saying? 




itlJ 



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■ILL£K REPOATINa CO . INC. 

50? C StiCTt. N E 2 5 

Vuhmiron. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



184 



A On some things, yes. On other things, I had the 

lead. 

Q What things did you have the lead on? 

A Well, on the State Department. As far as the 
execution of the work, I was substantively responsible. In 
other words, I was the one who developed strategies, trans- 
lated, executed, received visitors, interpreted, and worked 
most directly in conjunction with people in LPD, whereas his 
primary concern was with the contracting and payments. 

And he also did a good deal of work on the distri- 
bution system. I did not feel that that was my area of 
expertise. 

Q Was part of IBC's relationship with Spitz Channell 
in December-January — December of 1986, January and February 
of 1987--to reconstruct the accounts to determine for Mr. 
Channell how the money had been spent which he had forwarded 
to IBC? 

A There was a report that was prepared by Mr. Miller 
that had to do with the disbursements of monies received from 
Mr. Channell. And exactly where that report fit in with other 
things that Mr. Miller did for Mr. Channell, I don't know. I 
never saw the report. I only know that it was being prepared. 

Q You did not work on the report. 

A No. 

Q Did you have any meetings with Dan Kuykendahl in 



ICLASSI 



^ 



625 



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HiLL£R mroKTma co . inc. 

507 C Sum. N E 2 5 

Wuhuigion D C ;0002 



UNCLASSIFI 



185 



19877 



A In 1987? 

Q 1987. 

A No, I don't think so. 

Q Do you recall any discussions with Dan Kuykendahl 
in 1987 regarding this investigation? 

A Discussions between me and Dan Kuykendahl? 

Q Or discussions at which he was present and par- 
ticipated. 

A . No. 

Q Are you aware of any of the activities or any role 
that Dan Kuykendahl played in advising Spitz Channell's 
organizations, relative to this investigation? 

A I don't have any first-hand knowledge of it. I 
understand that there was a relationship, but I don't know 
precisely what Mr. Kuykendahl was doing for Mr. Channell. 

Q How are you aware of that relationship? 

A Through Mr. Miller. 

Q And what did he tell you about it? 

A I believe he told me that Mr. Kuykendahl was going 
to try to get helpful information into the hands of sym- 
pathetic members of Congress. 

Q Related to this investigation? 

A I don't know if it's related to the investigation 
specifically, but that was the number-one concern at the time. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



626 



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WLLEU REPOflDNQ CO.. IMC 

)07 C Suect, N E 25 

Wuhijigion. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIEI 



186 



Q Did you ever meet Bill Casey? 

A Never . 

Q Did you ever meet Bob Earl? 

A Never . 

Q Did you ever meet Ken deGraf f enreid? 

A NO. 

Q Did you ever meet Al Sapia-Bosch? 

A No. 

Q Nestor Sanchez? 

A . Yes . 

Q In what capacity did you meet Nestor Sanchez? 

A I think the first time I met him was when I was at 
the Foreign Press Center, and he briefed the foreign jour- 
nalists on Central America. 

Q Did you work with Nestor Sanchez in any way in 1985 
and 1986 on programs that related to Central America? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall a meeting in the White House in 1985 
in Oliver North's office or in the situation room where you 
and Rich Miller, Otto Reich, Jonathan Miller, Nestor Sanchez, 
Walt Raymond, Jeff Bell, and Jack Abramoff were present? 

A Yes. I remember a meeting in the situation room in 
which Abramoff and — the Bell name I would not have recalled, 
but I do recall Abramoff. 

Q Was Lew Lehrman there? 



UNCUSSiril 



627 



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HLLCn RfPOmiNO CO . INC. 
JOT C Sum. N E 2 5 

Wuhia(ta«. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



187 



A And Lew Lehrman. 

Q And what was the purpose of that meeting? 

A I don't know if Mr. Sanchez was there. My sense is 
that he was not, but I cannot be 100 percent certain. 
What was the purpose of the meeting? 

Q Yes . 

A As I understand it, the meeting was requested by 
Mr. Lehrman of Mr. North in order to offer a proposal to 
conduct a nationwide public information campaign on behalf of 
the administration's policy in Central America. 

But the proposal never went beyond that meeting, to 
my understanding, because at the same time that they were 
asking--or proposing to run they program, they were asking 
money to run it. 

Q Were any of the grants which the Institute for 
North-South Issues received from the National Endowment for 
Democracy in any way related to support for the Democratic 
Resistance in Nicaragua? 

A In no way. 

Q I'm glad to hear that. 

A Well, I am proud of the work that the Institute did 
in conjunction with the NED. We — I think we did a fine, 
honest, credible job for the NED and_ for_ everyone ^l_s^^f^r^ 
which we worked as the Institute. 

And it — I'm distressed that we have had to sever 



1 for everyone else for 

UNCLASSIFIED 



628 



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HILL£n wrofmNQ CO.. MC. 
507 C Suect, N.E. 25 

VashufToli. DC 20002 
(202) M6-6666 



uNtussife 



188 



the relationship because of other things . 

Q Do you know Linda Chavez? 

A Not well. I know her, but not well. 

Q Did she have--what was her involvement with IBC? 

A She was a contact at the White House that Rich 
Miller turned to to assist Mr. Channell in arranging for 
briefings. 

I don't recall ever speaking to her myself. I know 
her from other activities in Washington having nothing to do 
with her professional responsibilities. 

Q Do you know Mark Richards? 

A Yes. 

Q How do you know Mark Richards? 

A He was a consultant to the Office of Public 
Diplomacy at the same time I was . 

Q What was his job? 

A He prepared reports on military activities in 
Central America, analyzed, answered — he dealt with a lot of 
the media--arranged — he briefed journalists who were in 
Central American on what was going on there. But from the 
perspective of a person that understood warfare, weaponry, 
and so on--capabilities, movements. 

Q Did you participate in any of the briefings that he 
did for the media? 

A No. 



IINCUSSI 



629 



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Ut±Bt REPOtrnNO CO . MC. 
107 C Screti. N E 2 5 

Vuhiil(U>n. D C 20002 



UNCLA! 



in 



189 



Q Let me just siun up some of the salient points that 
you've made today. 

It was your testimony that the transfer of funds 
from IC to other entities and from IBC to IC in the Cayman 
Islands was done by Mr. Miller at the direction of Colonel 
North. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q It was your testimony that you were not aware of 
where the money was going from IC to other entities. Is that 
correct? 

A I was not aware of what the entities were. I 
sometimes saw what the entities were specified on documents,' 
but I had no understanding of what they were, in most 
instances . 

It was only after the fact since some of these 
things have been made public that I have been made aware of 
the full names and the locations and so on of the organiza- 
tions . 

Q At that time you did not know what they were. 

A At the time, I did not know what they were. 

Q And you simply signed the required papers for these 
transfers that were prepared by Mr. Miller at his request. 

A That's correct. 

MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions, Mr. 
Gomez. I appreciate your patience. Sorry we kept you here 



630 



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maa u p owr w o co.. mc 

507 C SoCTt. N E 

Wajhinftoa. DC. 20003 li 

II 




190 



so long. 

Mr. Fryman may have — 

MR. FRYMAN: I have no questions, Mr. Gomez. 

MR. OLIVER: Thank you very much. 

[Whereupon, the taking of the deposition concluded 
at 5:47 p.m. ] 



UNCLASSiriEl 



631 



C- 4>r, 



■/■ 






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Partially Oeclj'ssKied/Released nn 26 Jn, ^Pff 
unacf pfOKiiions ol E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



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by K Jonnson, National Secjiity Council 




iMtei 



633 



mussro 



Juo« 13. 19*6 



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Q1236 



1 

1 r 

•• 

Mr. D«Tld M. Pitting 

Senior Adalnlscracor 

CayhaTcn Corportcion Sarvlcei Llaltcd 

Barcltr* Bank Building 

Gaorgatown, Grand Cayaan 

Canaan Islands 

Daar Hr. Plaslng; 

This latter Is to conflra our talei to you on this date, 
instructing you to transfer £roa the Intel Co-operation Inc. 
account at Barclay's Bank PLC the foUovlng aaount; 

Fire hundred thousand US dollars ($300,000) ^ 

to: Barclays Bank PLC 
848 Brickal 
Mlaal. Florida 33131 
TLX: 518783 
Account nuabar: 00500-3470-27821 



Se»en_thousand US dollars ($7,000) X 




Five thousand US dollars ($ 



to; Soiftfo Bank, N.A. 

Ilchaond. Virginia 
Talai 823468 



Credit to account for; 

Latin Aaarlcan Strategic Studies Institute 

1806 Cool Springs Drive 

Alexandria, Virginia 22308 

Account nuaber 0510-000-17 



Patliaily Oeciassitied/Rel^Jsed on _2_b_J-Cfcvr_Oo 
undei provisions ol E 12356 
by K Joniison, National Secunly Council 




n^b*iS 



634 



(Ml* 2, plaslng, 
Jun« 13, 1986 



yssinti 



j«T«aC^ flT« thousand US dollars ($75,000) 

to; Aacrtcan Securltf Bank, N.A. 
Washington, D.C. 

Cradlt to account for; 



QVA 



V^^^ 




tan thousand US dollars ($10,000) 



to; Intarcontlnental Bank 
139S Brlckal Avanua 
Mlaal. Florida 
for crtdlt to account nuabar 6101005764 



Thank fou for four diractlon of thi 
Sincaraly , 




Richard R 



Diractor 

Intel Co-operation Inc, 



\,.Jh^^l 



Francis D. Goaaz 



Director 

Intel Co-operation Inc, 




/? «/ b V ; 



635 



STENOGRAPHIC MDrtrTES 
UnrcTiacd and Unedited 
Not for Quotation or 
DupUcation 



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Committee Hearings 

ofttM 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



C0Cl3S! 



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OFFICE OF THE CLERK 
Office of Official Reporter* 



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RPTS THOHAS 
DCHN KOEHLER 

DEPOSITIOH OF ADAH GOODMAN 

Konday, Septambez 1(4, 1987 

Housa of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covezt 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 

The select comnittee met, pursuant to call, at 10: 10 a.m. 
in B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, uith Thomas Fryman 
(Staff Counsel of House Select Committee) presiding. 

Present: Thomas Fryman, Staff Counsel, Spencer Oliver, 
Counsel. Victor Zangla, Staff, on behalf of the House Select 
Committee on Covert Arms Transactions with Iran; Henry J. 
Flynn, Investigator, on behalf of the Senate Select 
Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition; Allen L. Schwait and James H. Scott 
of Frank, Bernstein, Conaway £ Goldman, 300 East Lombard 
Street, Baltimore, Maryland, on behalf of the witness. 




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PAGE 2 
BY HR. FRYHAM: 

2 Let's go on the record then. Would you state your 
iull name for the record. 

A Hichael Adam Goodman. 

2 And in what city do you reside. Mr. Goodman? 

A Technically, Gli^ndon, Maryland, It is just north 
of Baltimore. 

2 Do you work in Baltimore? 

A Our offices are located just north of Baltimore in 
a little town called Brooklandville . It is ten minutes 
north of the city, about an hour from Washington. 

2 You are employed by the Robert Goodman Agency, is 
that correct? 

A That is correct. 

2 What is your position there? 

A Hy current position is I am vice-president, and 
also referred to as a political director of the agency. I 
am one of two vice-presidents under the president and 
founder. Bob Goodman. 

2 Are you one of the owners of the agency? 

A No, I have no equity or stake in it. 

2 Where did you attend college? 

A Went to Haverford Collega. 

2 Did you obtain a degree? 

A I did, a B.A. in history. 



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What year? 



A Graduated in 1977. 

2 Did you attend graduate school? 

A No, I have taken a few courses here and there but 
nothing formal. 

2 Have you worked for the Goodman Agency since 1977? 

A No, I started there in January of 1982. I have 
been there now about five and a half years. 

2 What did you do between 1977 and 1982? 

A Many things. I started off working for nearly a 
year at Hanuf acturers ' Hanover Trust in New York City, in 
their investment trust division, then I went from there to 
go campaign in Oklahoma, a campaign for governor. The 
candidate was Ron Shotts, the Republican nominee that year. 
Unfortunately, he fell a few votes short. 

My position in the campaign was deputy press secretary. 
When that didn't quite pan out, I then decided to honor ray 
Peace Corps, yearnings and went back into public interest 
law and to that end, my mom was in Tucson, Arizona, so I 
thought I would go there and really get a little dose of 
social work under my belt. 

This was the kind of thing I felt comfortable with and, 
at that point, I worked for the Tucson Urban League, Big 
Brothers. I did some work in the Pima County jail system, 
counseling young people as they just came in, what their 



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rights were, and this is as a volunteer. And I supported 

myself from a number of things, from waiting on tables to 

doing some advertising, marketing, really selling ad/, space 

for a professional volley-ball team, of all things, and 

along the way met some people who were interested in solar 

energy . 

And that seemed to jibe with my feeling about what I 

wanted to do with my life at that point. Within a month or 

so, I raised «25,000 in capital and started a solar energy 

corporation in Tucson, and I think now we are talking about 

1979, I think, mid-1979. And about six, seven, eight months 

into the experience when I found all I could afford was 

oatmeal and generic beer at night instead of three-course 

meals, I found this less k}n^t optimal, and about that time I 

•-* -^ 
got a call from a campaign g ^i ae up in Washington state, who 

needed a press secretary. '^ '^^ 

The candidate was the current Secretary of State, then 

Secretary of State, Bruce Chapman, who is a moderate to 

liberal Republican, a heck of a nice guy, and I did his 

press through the primary. He lost to the eventual winner, 

Z. 
John Spallnan, King County Executive at that point, andA.went 

from there to working for Marilyn Ward, who was running for 

State Treasurer, who was in a quixotic race but a marvelous 

woman, and ua had a heck of a time trying to get the 

legitimacy, but we did awful well. I think we lost St to 46 



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to someone who had been in more than 20 years . 

And after that experience, really another month or tuo 
beiore I was asked to :oln the Republican State Committee of 
Washington state and did their communications and press. 
And ue are now m the first part of 1981, and worked 
throughout the remainder of the year trying to adjust to 
being a new found conservative regular Republican, which 
wasn't always easy to do. or successful. 

At the end of that year, I think it was in December, my 
father called ne and said, "'Look Adam, I think you have 
been out on the trail long enough, we are having a very busy 
year in 1982, I would love you to come back and consider 
coming back and joining us . ' ' And that challenge was the 
fact I was trying to get out of a relationship with someone 
for a year and a half, and who I had met in Arizona. It 
seemed the only way I could delicately get out of the 
relationship was to move 3,000 mil^s across the country. 

1 did that and joined the firm in January of 1982 and 
have been there ever since. 

[Discussion off the record.] 
BY HR. rRYHAK: 

2 Well, back on the record. 

I take it froii your answer, you have not served in the 
military, is that correct? 
A Ho, I have not. 




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2 And you did not actually serve in the Peace Corps.? 

A Mo. 

2 So you have worked with the Robert Goodman agency 
since January of 1982? 

A That is correct. 

2 Have your duties varied in the five years that you 
have worked there? 

A Very much. 

2 Would you briefly describe? 

A Uell, they weren't really sure what to do with me 
when I came in because my father and the other vice- 
president. Ron Uilner, had been together for about 27 years 
and, creatively, they really handled everything that cane 
out of the agency in terms of scripts and strategy and post- 
production television and radio spots; and I really have 
evolved over the course of the years into the agency's first 
account executive. But from the very beginning I strove to 
put together a top-notch media buying. media placement 
division within the agency.That is really how I got my feet 

5 gen ' t 
campaign and saying, ''Hhat do you have today?'' and they 



wet, because they really weeen ' t used to just calling up a 



say, ''We have *5,000'', and call up a station and say, 
"What can you do with «S,000?" 

He were not technically polished back in the 1970's, 
and into 1980 and 1982. So I put together , eventually , with 



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the use of computers, really, what I think is a top-notch 
time-buying arm of the agency. And over time, probably 
beginning in 1983, I started to become a little more 
involved with the campaign side in terras of strategy and 
consultation. I was lika the day-to-day guy. When ray 
father wasn't around oz Ron wasn't around, I would field the 
calls and help as best I could. 

I think my first big break in that sense, something 
that plapV ^d" my stature within the agency, was ray service for 
a farailiar person by the name of Frank Rizzo back in 1983, 
when he ran for mayor, once again*, of Philadelphia. a»4- in a 
primary against Uilson Goode . I think Frank took a personal 
liking to me > valued my views and whatever else, and so, 
from that point onward, I think my position changed somewhat 
in that I think I was held in more--given a sense of position 
of raore trust and esteem maybe within the agency and :]ust 
continued from that point onward to -ae ntinu * — to" get my feet 
wet and understand politics from a paid media side as 
opposed to free press. 

I think Ron Uilnez and my father and I see ourselves as 
kind of a triumvirate of equals, each with a different 
specialty and different perspective on things. And we talk 
every day and we think there is a lot of value in getting 
and hearing all three opinions; and getting consensus or 
feeling\about possibilities or options creatively in the 



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many assignments ue have in the political industry. 

2 Does the Goodman Agency have one office, or do you 
have more than-- 

A Ue just have one. one in Brooklandville . 

8 Hou many employees does the agency currently have? 

A Currently, ue have six full-time employees, 
currently, plus Tom, ue have essentially a subcontracting, -» 
film creu, uith some top cameramen t rit o do all our film uork 
for the last ten or tuelve years headed by Wolfgang 
Uaurzynouicz . And, ue also have someone uho uorks a lot 
uithran editor by the name of Terry Halle. 

2 Going back to the six full-time employees you 
mentioned, your father and Mr. Uilner and yourself. 

A Yes. 

2 Uho are the others? 

A The other employees are Carole Jacobs, uho is 
basically my father's executive assistant, and receptionist 
and ad infinitim, and then there is Colleen Vickers, uho is 
now our accountant, really our bookkeeper, not really a 
certified accountant, and she, at one point, started re a lly 
uith me in the media division^ 6he did a lot of uork. I 
assumed part of the proces^dp^ng some, and finally Bruce 
Hentzer, and Bruce joined ouz agency, I think it uas , the 
end of 1985, towards the end of 1985. 

2 Kow, during the last three years, how has the firm 



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NAME : 

199 handled its bookkeeping, has the bookkeeping generally been 

200 done internally over that period of time? 

201 A Yes, sir. Ua had a bookkeeper retire this year, by 

202 the naree of Helva H cC_j^i.iu.aiJl , and helva han been with the 

203 agency practically from the very beginning, twenty some 
2014 years, and she did all of the bookkeeping and the in-house 

205 accounting, and we have an accounting firm that we use for 

206 our taxes and for advice, I think here and there jOut of New 

207 York by the name of H»«n and ll»«t. <-( -rf 

208 S There has basically been one person in the 

209 bookkeeping department over the last three years internally? 

210 A Yes, sir, Melva up until, I think, she stepped down 

211 in January or February oi this year. That is when Colleen 

212 went from the media division to take over the bookkeeping 

2 1 3 assignment . 

21U S You have an independent accounting firm that is-- 

215 A Yes, sir. 

2 16 Q Does the independent accounting firm also issue 

2 17 audited statements or issue an opinion on financial 

2 18 statement? 

2 19 A I am not really sure. We are not a, I guess we are 

22Q incorporated, I am not sure really how that works. 

22 1 2 Is the bookkeeping department, is that an area that 

222 comes under youx supervision? 

223 A Ko. 



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• ";ii,-,< 



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2 Whose area is that? 
A It really isn't *Ti anyone's direct supervision, I 
think everyone in the agency, at diiierent points, is 
interested in the flow of money from different campaigns. 
And if I have a $50,000 time buy for a Bruce Chapman in 
Washington state, my interest would be making sure that the 
money comes on tine and then making sure it is disbursed 
properly to TV stations, if that is, in fact, what we are 
doing with the money at that point. 
2 There is no one executive? 
A No. 

That supervises? 

No. 

nelva and now Colleen? 



No. I should say, I guess, my father more than 



anybody, I 



t'^hink she is accountable to him, but I 
don't think the word supervision, I don't think you would 



really say anyone is directly supervising her. 

2 Just for the record, Mr. Goodman, would you briefly 
describe the types of services that your agency performs? 

A Sure. I think now you could fairly say about 85 
percent of our business is political. Almost all of that is 
campaign oriented. We have been in business 27 years, but 
in terms of politics, we have been handling, doing political 
campaigns for the better part of 20, 21 years perhaps and 



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KAKE 

249 out assignn«nt now or our area of specialty is paid 

250 communications or paid media. 

251 Ua are involved in -p^^^ and producing, creating, 

252 scripting-producing , post-producing, and distributing 

253 television and radio commercials for candidates and 

254 campaigns across the country. Now, in addition to that, 

255 depending on the campaign, we also offer a lot of other 

256 services here and there, like speech -writing and general 

257 consultation about campaign strategy, and more specifically 

258 campaign communications which run the gamut of everything 

259 from press releases to major statements on issues or 

260 concerns the candidate might confront over the course of an 

261 election cycle. Really television and radio. 

262 2 So I take it from your answer, one thing you do is 

263 you write testaments. 
2&U A Yes, sir. 

265 2 And you said earlier you had a subcontractor that 

266 does filming of testaments. 

267 A Yes, sir. 

268 2 You would suparvise that? 

269 A We call ourselves a hands-on firm. Ue do 

270 everything from directing the spots to going into the studio 
27 1 after the filming and actually putting the spots together, 

272 post production. And lots of spots we don't go out and 

273 film, we do .9«- in the studio on video tape, normally, the 2<4- 



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hour turn around type spots, and ue are really hands-on 
every step of the process. Ue are really more than 
anything, if you had to call it something, ue are first and 
foremost film makers. 

Q Now, what is your role in the purchasing of air 
time on stations in a particular area for carrying your 
spots ? 

A Bruce W unlz a i ", who I talked about before, is 
t<:chnically the media director and he is responsible, 
really, for day-to-day media placements, but he didn't 
assume that title until January or February of this year. 
Prior to that, before I was made a vice-president, which was 
within the last six to nine months. I was really, my title 
was media director. And as part of that job. my 
responsibility was to coordinate tine placements, to put 
together strategies for time placements and that was ray 
primary function, and it somewhat continues to be my primary 
function in campaigns that we are involved with, even today. 

2 When you say strategies for tine purchases, what do 
you mean by that? 

A Hell, there are nany different ways to skin a cat 
in a political campaign like in„state-wide campaign dealing 
with multiple markets and trying to make decisions about 
where bast your money can be spent, or where/idoes the most 
effective job. where are the voters really ^»? If you have 



UNCUSSIFli 



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NAHE: 

299 obviously finite resources, you have to make some judgment 

300 calls, based primarily in my case on M »petieal data, but 

301 beyond that, of course, what ray gut tells rae , really, at any 

302 given point along the way, some campaigns and candidates 

303 will depend on rae, primarily, as one of ray major r«bp o Tises 

304 for advice, ^trt what to do with their money, their time buy 

305 money, their television and radio money over the course of 

306 the campaign 

307 2 So, does that involve decisions, one, about which 

308 station should carry the ads? 

309 A Yes, sir. 

310 2 And, secondly, the intensity of a buy in a 

311 particular area, and by that I mean the number of times a 

312 syot would be aired in any particular area? 

313 A Yes, sir, precisely. 

31U 2 Those are the two areas basically, what is the 

315 station you placed the ads on and — 

316 A Right. 

3 17 S How they are run on any particular station? 

318 A Exactly. 

319 2 That is basically the strategic decisions that have 

320 to be made? 

32 1 A Yes, sir, and to put the strategies together and 

322 make that^a proposal to the campaign and the people who 

323 ultimately make these decisions which, generally, are either 




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candidates' and/or certain key players during the campaign, 
the director, campaign manager, and so forth. 

e Is there a general pattern as to hou the agency is 
compensated for its work in a campaign? 

A Ue wish there were a rule to govern this type of 
thing. More often than not, it is a combination of what ue 
calli^ fees and commissions. 

2 Would you explain hou that works? 

A Yes, it is different for every campaign in every 
race. I think ue look at certain races like doing a race in 
California, doing a race in North Dakota, because of the 
size and importance of the race. And in California versus 
Horth Dakota, ue uould tend to command more of the total 
compensation, and the reason ue do fees and commissions, 
generally, is ue are trying to find a uay to make it easiest 
on the campaign, to pay for uhat ue think is uhat ue uould 
like to charge overall for the campaign. 

So, for instance, in a Senate campaign in California, 
ii ue think that campaign involvement is uorth $200,000, 
generally, uhat ue will do, ue uill say, okay, ue uill 
charge a i»» , «5,000 a month, say, and commissions up to, 
usually with a cap, up to «200,000. So ue uill iouk in, 
hopefully, a contract price in that case of «200,000. In 
the case of North Dakota uith a similar race, both Senate 
campaigns, uhere ue are not really/ias you uould in 



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NAME: HIR2 57000 Ul llJ|_riUtJI 2 iL.ft/ PAGE 15 

349 California «15 million, but raising »1.2 million, then we 

re-.-.'--" • ^'YiU- 

350 would adjust our compensation j o ir i a to reflect compensation 

35 1 realities of the differences in t}i6 z-a^e^-. 

352 2 When you refer to commissions, what are these 

353 commissions on, if you would enplain that for the record. 

354 A Commissions just refer to ^h* standard media 

355 commissions, and every ad agency on the map will tell you 

356 they get most of their income from commissions. Generally, 

357 the standard commission cut is 15 percent which means, if a 

358 spot on ''Good Horning America'' costs *100, the station 

359 will be paid *85 or 85 percent of the cost of the spot and 

360 the agency will retain S15 or 15 percent, and that is pretty 

361 standard throughout the industry. A\d in some cases, Tom, in 

362 these campaigns, campaign managers or candidates will work 

363 out different kinds of arrangements on commissions. 
361 They might cap commissions on some occasions,^ or they 

365 might say we don't want yu -fc» pay a standard t-5-, but pay 

366 you ten percent or seven and a half percent, that type of 

367 thing. 

368 2 That is a matter that is negotiabla? 

369 A This is all negotiable, sure. 

370 2 Generally, commissions are a major source of income 

371 for us; fox the agency, is that correct? 

372 A Yes, sir. 

373 2 And you mentioned fees. Just to take an example. 



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374 if a campaign asks you to prepare their television spots, to 

375 prepare the script, to supervise the filming and put the 

376 spot in final form for airing on a station, normally, would 

377 you charge a fee for that sort of work, for the preparation 

378 of the ads? 

379 A Generally, we do, Tom, as we have our fee and 

380 commission structure set from the very beginning of the 

381 campaign that cames^the whole campaign. He don't do it on 

382 a project-by-project basis. Once in awhil e ■ we will have an 

383 arrangement like that, come into a campaign late and they 

384 are having trouble with their current media consultant. In 

385 that case I think, we would price it on a project basis. 

386 Generally, no, we like to have or use monthly 

387 retainers. We have a guarantee of steady income. 

388 Generally, in most races I think, it is $5,000 a month. And 

389 regardless of how many spots we produce, regardless of how 

390 may speeches we write or a^w i ca ., that would be our standard 
39 1 retainer. We make up the rest of the difference between 

392 that and what we like to make in the campaign with 

393 commissions. 
39U We don't always place time buys in every campaign. 

395 Some campaigns we will have other arrangements for those, 

396 some will use other agencies just for the time placement 

397 part of it, or perhaps in some cases, other general 

398 consultants are brought into the campaign who have a time 



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buy capability and uill b« given the time buy. So it is not 
standard that we always have that kind oi arrangement and m 
those cases, Tom, we then depend i*-on getting a share of 
the commissions rebated back from whoever is doing the 
placement or we go on a straight fee basis. 
BY MR. FLYHN: 
fi You axe talking about film making? 
A Yes, sir. 

e Are these films, for instance, that you would shoot 
at some kind of political gathering? 
A Yes, sir. 

2 Or some kind of filming on television? 
A Both. It could be anything from a 30 second spot 
to a maybe ten minute video on a candidate and family, what 
he or she is trying to accomplish. 

HR. SCHHAIT: I am not going to object to more than 
one person taking the deposition ....less we get into areas 
that might be controversial. I don't mind this kind of fill- 
in in this kind of situation. Ordinarily, I would object. 
HR. rRYHAK! Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 
fi Back on th« record. 

Hr . Goodnan, when you purchase air time on a television 
station, is the station normally paid by your agency? 




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A That is correct. 

2 Then you bill the client for that time plus the 
amount o± the commission, is that correct? 

A Uell> technically that is correct, but «Ti~almost 
every case s^ political campaigns since , as you are aware, ue 
get the money for the time buy as they say. up front, 
because TV stations are w il l aware of the ¥agai.i Lib is of a 
campaign and how sometimes the best laid plans go astray, 
and so. it is.\cash on the table kind of business for 
political campaigns in terms of buying TV and radio time. 

So, when you say bill normally, what we do is receive, 
if we had a «50,000 time buy, we would receive SSCOOO first 
from the clients . We would then take 85 percent of the 
450.000 and send that to the various stations o n d- time buy 
and. at the same time, we would bill, as a confirming 
invoice, bill the clients for receipt of *50,000.,,a 
breakdown of how that was spent on the various stations. 

2 Now, there are some situations you indicated where 
you will prepare the advertisement, but the time buy will 
not be effected through youz agency? 

A That is correct. 

2 In those situations, you indicated the fee for the 
preparation fox the ad will be adjusted. 

A Hill be adjusted, yes. 

2 I take it it will be more than it normally would 



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be? 

A Yes. sir. That is a safe assunption, yes. 

2 What sort of controls are there to assure you that 
a client will not take an advertisement, which you prepared 
for a low fee, and arrange the tine buy itself and cut you 
out of the conmissions for that ad? 



T>-^> 



■)!> 



Li --^ 



A Hell, vt is a good question. I don't think ue have 
any safeguards ultimately to prevent a client from taking 
spots ue have produced and placing those spots directly ..iiTith 
or without our knowledge. I think -Wt«7- would be w ith o ut our 
knouledge in every case. Ue have no safeguard^ for that. Ue 
would never vouch in a particular campaign there wasn't more 
than one group or person directing and placing ads, that is 
true other than, Tom, under the contract that ue will drau ' 
uith the campaign, it is stipulated in most cases ue are 

talking about commissions in every case, ue uill receive X 

~^>, _ ■'■'■": JrJ 
percent, ten percent, 15 percent, whatever 4u4-l commissions 

on all media buys from terms that ue produced so that, if in 



'-v->- 



fact that would occur, it would Ua. technically--probably be a 
violation of our contractual agreement. 

S When you prepare an advertisement for airing on the 
television station, do you ship the advertisement directly 
to the station from your agency? 

A Hormally, yes. 

2 After the ad is run, is it returned to your 



656 



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SSIFIED • 



AGE 



20 



HIR257000 
Station? 

A Nornally, no. Normally, what the station will do 
uill keep that spot for a cettain period oi time, usually a 
couple oi months . 1£ it is not used for a couple oi months , 
they Mill destroy the dub. That is a dub copy o£ the master 
of that spot from our studios. 

2 Do they contact you before they destroy it? 

A Some do, but most don't. 

2 What is the form of the ad that is normally shipped 
to a station, is there a certain size tape? 

A That varies. Now, more often than not, a one-inch 
video tape is the accepted size of a broadcast quality tape 
that ue send stations, but the older format, two-inch, is 
still used in a lot of smaller markets in the country, and 
in many cases, with cable television stations, with even 
some of the smaller stations in the country, three-quarter 
inch tape is also requested, so it is really a variety of 
formats . 

What we try to do is determine when we are going into a 

market^- tM call the traffic departments and make the request 

^' 'i - , 
for certain information, including what type of tapes yett' 

normally accept. So/,we know what to tell our studios in the 

dubbing process . 

S An I correct that any TV station in a major market 

would normally use either a one-inch or two-inch tape? 



iwssw 



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UNCUSSIRED 



A Yes 

2 It would be unlikely that a major station would use 
a three-quarter inch tape? 

A Very unlikely. 

S Now, I take it you frequently provide copies of 
your tapes for your clients for their own viewing and their 
own use? 

A That is correct. 

2 Do you normally provide one or two-inch tapes to 
your clients? 

A Ho . 

2 Why not? 

A Because they can' t--usually don't have the equipment 
to be able to project those. The standard format for 
p:.rsonal use, most standard format is half-inch, VHS. I 
think 70 percent of the people in America that have video 
recorders have««VHS type of format. There is Beta, half-inch 
Beta, which is the next most common format, and finally, 
three-quartez inch which is better quality reproduction than 
half-inch, and ue prefer to send that to clients whenever 
possible because we want them to see it closer to broadcast 
quality, which is normally one or two-inch and it looks much 
better than you would see on a half-inch player. 

Again, to summarize, V ave inch and three-quarter inch 
are two formats we would send in 99.9 percent of the cases. 



mmmm 



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HIR257000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 



22 



NAME: 

52U Ue hava no reason to send one-inch unless they had a studio 

525 in their den and they had a one-inch player. 

526 2 Do you know whether it is technically feasible to 

527 take a half-inch or a three-quarter inch tape and reproduce 

528 It on a one or two-inch format? 

529 A It is. 

530 2 Do you lose quality? 

53 1 A You lose some quality every time you dub from the 

. v-,^ ■ \^ 

532 master, you go down ■ttr'What they call a generation, you lose 

533 some quality, and in this case I think, you would lose more 
53«t quality going from three-quarter inch to one-inch than you 

535 would going from one-inch to three-quarter inch. 

536 But you could take a three-quarter inch tape or half- 

537 inch tape and transfer it to a format that stations could 

538 use and broadcast, and the quality wouldn't be the best, but 

539 I think you g e * unde r ato o d , meet the minimum standard for 
5U0 broadcast quality stuff. 

514 1 2 Do I understand correctly from your answers, that 

5142 if a client asKad you for a one-Inch tape for the client's 

5143 oi«n viewing, that you would send them the tape? 

5UU A Oh. sure, whatever they want. I don't think ue 

5U5 have ever received a request for one-inch from a client. In 

5'46 some cases, I think I said earlier, normally, we just send 

Sm the tapes directly to stations. There probably have been 

5>48 some cases in the history of the agency where we would send 



uNWSsra 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR257000 IIIVIII M . f . 1 It 9 II il PAGE 23 
a finished broadcast quaiity one and tuo-inch dubs to 
satisfy the campaign, because of the need or effort to 
reduce turn-around time. 

Ue knew when he wanted to go on the air much more 
quickly on certain spots, we might, in that case, send the 
finished dubs out to the campaign manager and he or she 
would hold them until the proper time.Xns tead of worrying 
about redaral Express, we might send them m the 
Presidential campaign ^ut —^o distribute the things and get 
the things on faster. 

2 You mentioned that that 85 percent of your work, or 
approximately that within the last year or so, has been m 
political campaigns? 

A Yes, sir. 

2 Is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

2 By that, you mean Senate and Congressional 
campaigns? 

A Yes, six. 

2 And state campaigns? 

A Yes, sir, the whole gamut. 

2 Do you specialize in any particular party? 

A As Republican or Democrat? 

2 Yes. 

A Ue really are a Republican £iin and over the years. 



UNeSSIHEl 



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HIR257000 BSr. 4i»a J-Jig«i«L: l"L.iJ page 2M 
I would say, 95 percent of the wotK has been for 
Republicans. He have done a feu Democrats, including ex- 
Governor Hughes, Harry Hughes in naryland, and of course. 
Frank Rizzo who was a Democrat in 1983. He is now a 
Republican, or whatever. And I think, as I recallr my 
experience. I think, I am not aware of any candidate. 
Democratic candidate, we have ever handled for federal 
office . 

The reason is very simple. He have helped so many 
Republicans win federal offices, especially in the U.S. 
Senate today, that we feel we would be violating our 
friendship and trust if we went back and tried to cancel a 
Republican vote in the Senate with a Democratic vote, plus ~'' 
national parties aren't too happy. 

2 The other 15 percent of your work, is that 
commercial work? 

A Primarily. In fact. yes. it is commercial work. 
He have had. fox instance, the Hest Virginia Coal 
Association contract, not really a PAC group, but special 
interest group, and wa do some advertising fox them and that 
«««V-a£ way back in our--with our experiences with current 
Governor Arch noore when he was first elected, I think back 



A.' 



)5tV 



In the late I960' s ./^Goveznor of Hest Virginia, wa became 
more closely tied with things down there. 

At least through the coal association, at some point, 




661 



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IINCLASSIFIED 



HIR257000 IIIVIIK M . 1 , t ? » il II PAGE 25 
ue did some tourist business and other things. Most of 
that--raost beyond that, I think all the rest oi the 
coraraercial. IS very sporadic. 

2 How, Mr. Goodman, your agency was retained in 1985, 
was It not, by an organization associated with Carl Channell 
to do sorae work for that organization? 

A That is correct. 

2 Do you know how Mr. Channell came to retain your 
agency ? 

A Ue received the first call from a person by the 
name of Roger Wilkins in early '85, 1985, and my father took 
the call, so I wasn't aware of everything. I can't give you 
first-hand knowledge. It is my understanding that Mr. 
Channell had come to learn about our group because of some 
of the work we had done in the past in West Virginia. I 
assume that must mean work for Governor Arch Moore as 
opposed to say, the coal association. 

And, perhaps, he had heard other opinions I am not 
aware of, but he at least heard something about us and heard 
we were good at what we do, which is making television and 
radio spots and that is how supposedly Mr. Uilkins was told 
to, why Mr. Uilkins was told to place the call to us. 

2 Oo you know Richard Miller? 

A Yes, I do. 

2 Uhen did you first meet Richard Miller? 



iJNCii: 







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HXR257000 UilUUdOU lU 



PAGE 26 

A Oh, bovj ; 

2 Did your acquaintance with him pre-date your 
association with Mr. Channell? -„- ^ .^^ 

A Mo. it did not. We almost all-^-Mr. Miller and Mr. 
Channell ^one and the same thing, ihey had separate 
organizations, but we came to learn about him after we had 
met Mr. Channell. 

S Do you know if Mr. Miller ever had had any 
association with the Robert Goodman Agency prior to the 
Channell association? 

A Ko , I am not aware of any association. 

C Mow, rtr . Channell originally did not ask you to be 
involved in a political campaign, did he? 

A That is correct, he did not. 

Q What did he ask you to be involved in originally? 

A Originally, he talked about the contras, the 
Micaraguan resistance, and he was interested--the first 
discussions with us, he was interested in really promoting 
their cause. Meaning, he felt that if Americans were made 
more aware of the situation as it existed then in Nicaragua, 
that they would be much more favorably disposed toward their 
cause and all that that might entail. 

So, basically, it was a discussion about a public 
relations effort to •niN' lii educate Americans, to make the 
resistance more familiar wA'tirthem, and secondarily, really 




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HIR257000 



UNCUSSIFiEO 



PAGE 27 



m concert with that, more uorthy of American support. 

2 Mould you i l Bg »«t> a descrxbe that as an issue you 
campaign? 

A Yes , sir . 

e Or public education? 

A Exactly, I called it >» issue and advocacy 
advertising . 

2 Has your agency previously been involved in that 
sort oi work, or uas this a first for the agency? 

A It certainly was a first to this degree. I think 
we probably--! think we did some work before I wasowith the 
agency, with the American Medical Association, a PAC group, 
and I am sure we have done a few others, butx^this is really 
our first full-fledged experience with a public interest 
group really helping them to this degree with their 



) 



»^ .: 



communications , or basically .with their paid advertising. 



) 



2 With the telavision advertising campaign? 

A That is right. 

2 Hera you aware that other agencies had been 
involved in this sort of program before? 

A Hith nr. Channell? 

2 No, with any special interest group. 

A Yes, sic. 

2 So this was a first for your agency, but it was not 
a first in the industry, if you will. 



IliLASSfflEO 



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HIR2S7000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 28 



That is correct, and our motivation here. Torn, was 



it's very tough when you have a lot of business in the on- 



'Mt _-> 



years 



but not so much in the ofi-years« This is one way, one 



direction that U»«' seemed to suggest a very nice cushion in 
terras of making profits in the of£*election year cycles^ »a4 
as a more on-going type of business as opposed to campaigns, 
which i ha «l a very finite beginning and very ^e iy finite 
ending . 

S Do you recall when the first contact by Mr. 
Char.nell occurred approximately? 

A Hin directly? 

2 Yes. 

A It was something like February, as I recall, 
something like February or March of 1985. I think he 
contacted us or my father fairly soon after Roger Wilkins 
had made the first contact. 

2 Has there a meeting shortly after that? 

A I believe there was. 

S Did you participate in the meeting? 

A I am sura I did. 

Q Has that here in Washington or in Baltimore or 
somewhere else? 

A One or the other. Hy recollection is, we came over 
and met Hx . Channell. Hell, I can't — I really can't recall, 
it could have been either place. 



mu% 



It 



665 



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HIR257000 



DNCL^SSIFlEe 



PAGE 



29 



2 Do you recall that your agency reached an 
understanding with Mr. Channell sometime early in 1985 about 
some services that you were to perform? 

A That is correct. 

S Can you describe what that understanding was? 

A The understanding was we were going to produce an 
undetermined number of commercials , wa« to promote this 
public education of the contra cause and > in terms of 
compensation, we did charge a fee for the very first series 
of spots. 

At this point, we weren't sure what this relationship 
was all about. In fact, I don't believe--my best %e et- 
recollection is, I don't think we ever signed a contract 
with Mr. Channell outlining what our duties MX^^t^ or may not 
be. And the first project really came back to the original 
questions. I think we charged a i(.10,000 fee which we 
thought was a one-time experience, meaning we might not do 
any other workj which is why we did it that way--and 
commissions — which yttcS the standard 15 percent agency 
commissions allowed by stations. 

Q I take it in light of our discussion earlier this 
morning, the commissions were to be an integral part of your 
compensation? 

A That is correct. 

2 Pursuant to this understanding, did your agency 



mM^ 



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HIR2S7000 



blULnoSIFlEO 



PAGE 30 



perform a variety of services for Hr . Channell's 
organization in 1985 and 1986? 

A I am sorry, would you repeat the question? 

( Question read . I 

A I can't say, Tom, it is not correct to say pursuant 
to that understanding, perhaps, and be accurate because 
there really was no clear understanding that ue uere Mr. 
Channell's ad agency and, in fact, ue uere made auare at 
many different points along the uay, I think well into 1986, 
that uhen Kr . Channell uould conceive of a project, where 
television or radio might be involved, that he, essentially, 
•h«- w ent out for l» i < li Ife uould go and solicit ideas and 
proposals from more than just us, from other agencies as 
uell. so ue aluays felt ue uere one spot away from either 
being more endeared to his organization, or <ind ourselves 
with a short-term arrangement. 

fi But your agency did produce a number of spots for 
Mr. Channell's organization in 1985 and 1986^ 

A That is correct. 

Q An integral part of the compensation for your uorK 
fcr those organizations uas commissions for purchasing air 
time for the spots, is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

2 Just to follow up, Mr. Goodman, on one comment you 
made, you said you uere auare that rtr . Channell. from time 



wmmm 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



HIR257000 limiil M.l.^ai II II PAGE 31 

to tiraa, sought proposals from other agencies? 
A That is correct. 

2 What other agencies do you know performed work for 
Mr. Channell's organization? 

A Actually performed work? 
2 Yes. 

A There was. as I understand it, a production firm 
out of New York, I think one of the principal's names uas 
Kilo. 

Blackmore or Blakenore? 

Blakemore and Hhitnore, or Blakemore. 

And Kilo? 



A 

2 
A 



Yes, I think that is •«- f irm, Vwe just learned about 
that^I think*~oit was through the newspapers , ^ it had to do 



with a project Mr. Channell wanted us to do, I think^ 
originally4 and 'W h e n we re jected,^because we objected to the 
nature of the ad-- 

2 What project did you understand that to involve? 

A He understood it to be a project where an ad or 
series of ads would be essentially directed against Senate 
aspirant, Barbara Hikulski, who was running for the Senate 
in Maryland, in 1986, and being from Maryland and basically 
objecting to the nature of the effort, we declined to even 
make a proposal. 

2 Did I correctly understand that your firm was not 



iciissra 



668 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR257000 U 1 f U&.l RAJ ^ I 1 I k 1^ PAGE 32 

774 involved in preparing advertisements for the Hikulski 

775 campaign? 

776 A That is correct. 

777 2 Or you were not involved in preparing 

778 advertisements for the Chavez campaign? 

779 A That is correct, we were not involved. 

780 . e Other than the Blakemore iirn. what other firms do 

781 you know performed services? 

782 A X am not aware of any other ad agencies that 

783 performed services. I do know of one firm that was making a 
78U pitch or made a proposal for a piece of business. called , 

785 ''Don Ringe and Associates, R-I-K-G-E, simply because I 

786 think ■ m?'a t^rn't'inf showed me a script, or copy of a script, 

787 that they had proposed having to do with x e s i stanc e ItR 

788 Nicaragua resistance, and as I recall, that was sometime in 

789 1986. , J^ist c een f a t o e d the impression we were not an agency 

790 hired in perpetuity, but rather one that was going to be 
79 1 evaluated on each and every proposal we made on different 

792 projects Mr. Channell night be envisioning. 

793 fi I ask the reporter to mark this document as Goodman 

794 Deposition Exhibit 1 for identification. 

795 (Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] 

796 fi Ilx . Goodnan Z have had marked as Goodman Deposition 

797 Exhibit 1 for Identification what appears to be a script 

798 prepared by Ringe Hedia, Inc.. dated January 28th, 1986 



\mmm 



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HIR257000 



UNtUSSlFlEO 



PAGE 33 



Would you look at that document. Is that the script you 
just referred to? 

A That is correct, that is the script I recall. 

e Where did you get that script? 

A I really can't recall who I got it from, though I 
think I recalled the event, it was one of the two 
fundraisers that we were invited to by Mr. Channell, either 
late 1985 or early 1986. This must have been early 1986. 
Just as guests of Mr. Channell because , really^ for the 
reason^ according to Mr. Channell, getting to see and meet 
some of his contributors, so we would get a better feel for 
the types of interests we were representing in the ads we 
were producing for Mr. Channell. 

1 think I got that at one, at «*•* particular 
fundraising event. Who I got it from, I can't recall. 

2 Was this the briefing at the White House on January 
30th, 1986, and the subsequent meeting at the Hay-Adams 
Hotel that you are referring to? 

A I received this at.* Hay-Adams Hotel, I think that 
was — that seems to be the date of the meeting. As I recall, 
that is correct. 

e On this deposition Exhibit 1 , there is an 
indication at the top that the client is TBA . Do you know 
that that stands for? 

A You would have to asK Ringe Media. I an not aware 



iwssffe 



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":::::: UNCUSSsflED 



PAGE 



34 



2 So your recollection is someone gave this to you at 
the meeting at the Hay-Adams Hotel? 

A That is correct. 

2 But you do not recall the person? 

A I don't recall who that was. 

2 Was it someone associated with tlr . Channell's 
organization? 

A It may have been. 

2 But you are not sure? 

A Mo> I an really not. 

2 Did you understand that this was a proposed ad or 
did you understand that this is an ad that was going to be 
run? 

A lly understanding, my recollection, my understanding 
was that this was a proposed ad that, I assume, Mr. Channell 
and his people were considering, and I am not sure how this 
ad fit into the total iranework of everything else they were 
trying to do on television and in their general campaign for 
the Nicaraguan resistance, but I remember reading this and 



■1 ) 



X'r^ 



thinking that.iis an awfully tough way to do this thing. 

2 What do you mean by that? 

A Wall, there were times, when In the process of 
arriving at final scripts with Mr. Channell, that he would 
take a much more direct and, what I call, hard-hitting 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HIR257000 



UNCUSSSIRED 



PAGE 



35 



approach to a TV spot, and in every case we would try to 
tone that down. One, because ue ■t h i n g- i£ you pushed too 
hard in making certain points like this, it looks like you 
are involved more with propaganda, unsubstantiated in fact, 
than simply laying out the facts of the issue. Ue also, as 
we cime to learn about this program, Tom. we :ust felt the 
facts, »uota inin5 the facts was enough to make the case and 



^'1^^ 



make it fo7:cefully. 

We didn't want to forcejfeed the viewer. This obviously 
was a spot, I remember reading this and remember thinking, 
burning crosses and schools closed, and so forth. We :ust 
objected to the approach and-- 

2 Did you talk to Hr . Channell about this? 

A About this particular ad? 

2 Yes. 

A Not that I recall. 

2 Did you talk to him in general about his 
consultation with any other advertising agencies? 

A Either Hr . Channell or Dan Conrad would allude here 
and there to the fact that they were seeking other 
proposals. I am not sure if they ever mentioned names. We 
ware will aware we weren't the only ones bidding for certain 
pieces of business. It would seem Mr. Channell segwanted 
most everything seemed to be on a project-by-project basis. 



We didn't look at this as ^ 9^£ns < 



an on-going 



yHMSS'fll!) 



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.- mtmim .. 



HIR257000 lll'iLSLmiiiiRIi ILLI page 36 
relationship as much as ue didi* suppliers pitching -*n- every 
time for cextaih projects in terms oi .ir€ when we would do it, 
creatively and so forth. 

Q You don't recall making any specific comments to 
Mr. Channell after you saw Exhibit 1? 

A No, I don't. 

2 Either about this ad or about involvement of Ringe 
Media. 

A No, I don't. 

S I ask the reporter to mark a copy of a draft 
television ad for the Anti-Terrorism America Committee on 
the letterhead of Arthur J. Finkelstein and Associates, as 
Goodman Deposition Exhibit 2 for identification. 

(Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification. ] 

8 rtr . Goodman, I show you Exhibit 2. Oo you 
recognize that document? 

A Yes, I do. 

e 

A 

and my recollection of this was Mr. Channell told me that an 
associate or someona who worked for the Arthur Finkelstein 
Associates polling firm had an idea for a spot and he 
thought it had some merit. He wanted me to talk to this 
person. I can't recall off-hand who it was. He sounded 
like he was a very sharp and interesting person, and he told 



How did you happen to receive that document? 

Ue received it by .d«*T^ on our of f ice -Cv^t- machine ; 



UNCLASSm 



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PAGE 37 
me his concept and I said why don't you g u^ ra« a copy so ue 
can take a look at it, and that is what ue did. 

2 The Finkelstein firm was not generally involved in 
preparing copy for ads or assisting in preparing copy for 
ads? 

A That is correct, this is the only time I can recall 
their having been involved, had any kind of input, offering 
any input in the ad process. 

2 Was the Finkelstein firm working with your firm in 
its capacity as a polling organization on the work for Mr. 
Channell . 

A Ho, they were not. 

2 Were you aware that Hr . Channell had retained the 
Finkelstein firm? 

A I believe I was aware that they had retained 
Finkelstein. I know we heard they retained some polling 
firm, I am not sure. Obviously, at this time, putting two 
and two together, I knew they had hired a polling firm. Hr . 
Channell told us that. 

C You have no recollection of making any use of the 
product of the Finkelstei.i firm in connection with your 
work? 

A No, I don't. May I also offer this script, as I 
recall, was designed to use the President as a rallying 
point. That his popularity at that point was awfully high 



ONCLASSiFlEO 



82-710 0-88-23 



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PAGE 38 



in all public opinion polls, and I remember the concept here 
was just to make the best use o£ the President. 

Q How. Mr. Goodman, after the initial discussions 
with Hr . Channell in early, is it 1985, that ue have been 
discussing, your agency did prepare a number of 
advertisements for Mr. Channell? 

A That is correct. 

Q I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 
Exhibit 3 for Identification, a document produced by nr . 
Goodman's counsel, headed at the top, ACT/NEPL/Sentinel , 
Complete to Date, 2/24/87. 

[Exhibit Ho. 3 was marked for identification.] 

2 Hr . Goodman, I show you Exhibit 3 and ask you if 
you recognize that document? 

A Yes, I do. 

2 Did you either prepare or cause that document to be 
prepared? 

A I didn't^but someone within the agency did, and it 
was a compilation, actually trying to -g** what they caM a 
menu of spots that we had produced for the various 
organizations controlled by Mr. Channell. 

2 Why was that document prepared? 

A In looking at the date, February 24th. 1987, *. ( __ 
wanted to make sure we had a complete record of all the 
spots we had ever produced for his organization because, at 



UNClftSSiFIED 



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HIR257000 IllWill ■M.l.tBI 1 V I I PAGE 39 
that point, wa had been made auaie of the Iran contra affair 
and felt--and had been asked--ac tually been called by a lot of 
reporters at one point in the proctss, and felt it would be 
best if ue started by doing some wo rk on exactly what ue had 
done for Hr . Channell's organization, and this was part of 
the effort to refresh our memory and also provide this, if 
ever requested, to anyone that was interested. 

2 Did Mr. Channell or anyone in his organization ask 
that this be prepared? 

A It is possible, Tom, I can't really — can't recall. 
I thought this was only for our purposes . He might have 
made that request. 

Q It is your recollection now that this was prepared 
as a result of an internal initiative within your firm, and 
not in response to some request by Hr . Channell? 

A I believe so. That is my best recollection, 
th o ug jrb- I won't be surprised if, at some point in this 
process, they had requested a copy of all the spots they had 
ever done. I know that w« were interested in getting this 
record for ourselves. It may not have been exclusive to 
other things . 

fi I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 
Exhibit M for identification, a group of pages produced by 
counsel for Hr . Goodman, which are on the letterhead of the 
Robert Goodman agency. Inc., and appear to be scripts for 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HIR257000 iillfi^SS Hali.'^BrSr il PAGE UO 

various television advertisements. 

[Exhibit Mo. 4 was marked for identification.! 

Q Kr . Goodman, would you examine Exhibit 4, okay? 
Look through the pages and just confirm that these are 
scripts of advertisements that uere prepared by your agency. 

A Yes / they are . 

S Kou, Kr . Goodman, there appears to be a number of 
scripts in Exhibit 4 for advertisements which are not 
included on the list which is Exhibit 3. 

A Yes. 

fi And from my comparison, and we can just go through 
these quickly, four pages, there is a script for an 
advertisment concerning a wounded freedom fighter. 

A Yes. 

S Continuing on, there is a script entitled, 
•'Flagship'*, a script entitled, ' ' Iwo Jima'*. 

A That is right. 

2 A script entitled, ''Our Jobs'', and several 
others . 

A Yes. 

S Does that indicate that you prepared scripts for a 
number of advertisements which were never completed as 
advertisements? 

A That is correct. 

2 And the actual advertisements that were completed 



Kiissres 



677 



UNCLASSiRED 



NAHE- HIR257000 U II tJI-r^&JIU I I I ■_ U PAGE 41 

999 are the ones that are included on Exhibit 3, is that 

1000 correct? 

1001 A To the best of our recollection and our research, 

1002 yes, all of those were the ones that were completed. 

1003 2 By completed, what you mean is that the 

1004 advertisement was filmed and was put in a final form for 

1005 airing on a television station? 

1006 A That is correct. 

1007 e Is that correct? 

1008 A That is corzact. 

1009 MR. SCOTT: Are you saying also it was actually 

1010 aired on television, or just prepared to air on television? 
10 11 MR. FRYMAM: Now, I think the question was, it was 
10 12 prepared to air, not that it was actually aired, but the 
1013 list of scripts that are included on Exhibit 3 are. in your 
101U view, the advertisements that were put in final form so that 
10 15 they were ready to air? 

10 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

1017 BY ME. FRYMAH: 

1018 e Hharaas in Exhibit t , there are a number of 

1019 additional scripts that were never filmed or put in such 

1020 final fora? 

1021 A Yes. that is correct. 

1022 fi Is that correct? 

1023 A That is correct. 



iwssife 



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PAGE 



42 



2 And inthe case uheze there is an advertisement 
identified on Exhibit 3, to take as an example, a Korean 
airliner, if you would then turn to Exhibit 4 on the second 
page, you will see there is a script headed, ''Korean 
Airliner''. Mow, does that indicate to you that the second 
page of Exhibit 4 is the audio script? 

A Yes. 

2 For the finished advertisement, ''Korean 
Airliner*', that appears on the list, which is Exhibit 37 

A Yes, but with one word of explanation^ This was 



A5 



"!>' .-.i 



what we have described in the pastra very p l ione Lie" account , 
just keeping scripts current when we would make changes, say 
from original script wording of the original script to 
certain revisions, was a hard job at best and there might be 
some scripts between the actual final audio copy on the 
finished spot on the list you provided and the copy that you 
see on a particular script on our agency television 
stationery . 

It is possible there could be a few discrepancies even 
in the wording. This doesn't mean this script might not be 
the final script. In most cases, it will be. 

2 In most cases it will be the final script and so m 
situations where there were variations, is it fair to say 
that the variations would be editing variations rather than 
a complete rewriting of the script? 



^!m^ss!fffJ 



679 



liNMSSro 



PAGE 43 



NAME^ HIR257000 
10149 A Yes. 

1050 2 If there uete a rewriting of the script, what would 

1051 the procedure be? 

1052 A Well, the modus operandi was to prepare a new 

1053 script with > final copy and so forth, but I am sure there 

10514 is at least one instance where, because again not this 

loss particular account, but the fact we are also in a political 

f- . •_ .' 

1056 year with all these other campaigns going on, that. nay he^ 

u^^ ^ _■ : - 

1057 in one case or more, these weren't kept wb«^ ue say current, 

1058 meaning the final actual revision would not specifically 

1059 match the final video spot you would see listed on Exhibit 

1060 number 3. 

1061 In other words, I couldn't testify that this particular 

1062 script was actually the final word %«— «i;word to a ''T'" you 

1063 would see reflected on the final list on Exhibit 3. 

IO6I4 2 To summarize what I understand your answer to be, 

1065 these are the scripts that were proposed by your agency for 

1066 these advertisements 7 

1067 A That is correct. 

1068 2 And the final shooting script may have had some 

1069 final editorial changes? 

1070 A Yes. 

107 1 2 If there are to be a complete rewrite of the 

1072 script, the normal procedure is that there would be another 

1073 shoot reflecting that rewrite? 



mmmE 



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HIR257000 
A 
Q 
A 

e 

minute? 



ONCLASSIFIED 



PAGE UU 



That is correct. 

Is that correct? 

Yes. Thanks for helping me with that. 

I ask the reporter to mark-- 

HR. SCHWAIT: Could ue go off the record for a 



MR. FRYHAH: Yes. 

[Discussion off the record. I 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 You have something further to ad to your answer, 
Mr . Goodman? 

A Yes, sir. I would like to point out that beyond 
just copy changes, in many instances, we would have 
disclaimer changes as well. As you will -KiiuU in the script-. 
we were talking about in Exhibit U, *.ff the second page, 
script commercial number 302, called, ''Korean Airliner'', 
we had two different disclaimers for that particular spot* 
Disclaimer A, paid for by Barbara Newington, through 
American Conservative Trust, Disclaimer B, was paid for by 
the American Conservative Trust as a service to the people 
of America. 

Actually, Tom, a better example* wnd e is > anH ma would 
have a spot that was scripted and wa were told for 
argument's sake^to be funded, ^paid for, and that would be 
identified on the spot by the American Conservative Trust. 



WUSSIFIED 



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NAME: HIR257000 



yNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE US 



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I 1 1U 

II IS 
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Then, subsequent to that, ue would get instructions from He. 
Channell, or one of his associates, no, in fact this 
particular spot in question would not have a disclaimer from 
the Mational Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty or 
Sentinel. And in mora than one instance, this happened and 
we got to the point, soma points in this process, Tom, of 
asking, make a point of asking Hr . Channell or one of his 
associates th* question, well, who is going to pay for this 
spot? Who is going to be the group ua are going to identify 
in the disclaimer on the spot as having funded this thing? 
So i-fc becam'a very sansitiva to that because wa just had a 
feeling that Mr. Channell wasn't always Padding on which 
organization was going to be used as the organization 
identified on the particular TV shot. Was that clear? 

2 Let me just put a few follow-up questions to you, 
Hr . Goodman. What do you mean exactly when you use the term 
disclaimer? Is this a technical term that is used in the 
advertising industry? 
A Yes. 

2 Or a term of art that you usa in tha industry? 
A Yas, sir. A disclaimer is a statement of 
rasponsibilityj primarily for tha funding to hava «- 
particular talavision spot »«<»- political campaign. In a 
federal campaign, you can't put a talavision spot on tha air 
without identifying tha group or groups that, not only 



UNWSiflEO 



682 



NAME' 
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1 mo 

1 1U1 
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HIR2S7000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 46 



authorized that spot be aired, but actually paid for it. In 
a couple cases there is more than one group. 

There were instances in 1986 when the National 
Republican Senate Committee would be paying for a commercial 
oe for a particular Senate candidate and the disclaimer 
might read something like, paid for by the National 
Republican »r^ Senate Committee, authorized by friends of 



T%T. 



.)1\ •-.-J 



Paula Hawkins, whatever , name of the committee was, as it is 
a rule of the industry, and I don't know if it is., FCC or 
TEC, 1«e have to identify sponsorship. 

Q Does the disclaimer have to be both in sound and 
sight? In other words, does there have to be both audio and 
a picture of the disclaimer, or can it be one ot the other, 
or does it have to be one or the other? 

A Okay, in television, it has to be a visible 
disclaimer. Now, if you want to, you can make it, audio as 
well as a visual disclaimer. You have to see the 
disclaimer, and the rules governing that, in general, are 
1), it has to be readable, and 2) it has to be on for a 
minimum amount of time, which I think is three seconds. In 
a radio spot, it is different obviously. 

Q You referred to different organizations that Mr. 
Channell was associated with, and maybe we should clear that 
up on the record now. You mentioned three organizations, I 
believe, the American Conservative Trust; which is also 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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PAGE 



17 



known as ACT, the national Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty, which is also known as KEPL. 

A Yes , sir . 

2 And Sentinel? 

A Yes , sir . 

S Now, were those the three Channell organizations 
that your firm dealt with? 

A That is correct. 

e What did you understand was the difference between 
those organizations? 

A At the time, the first organization we did any 
commercials for was ACT. Then at some point, really without 
watching, we were told on a certain spot, I forget which 
spot, that the sponsoring organization is not ACT, it is 
HEPL, and at some point in 1986, we actually did »*»?aargn 
for Sentinel. 

Ue were never told by Mr. Channell or anyone in his 
organization, specifically, what the differences were from 
one organization to the next. 

Q Did you have any understanding about the difference 
in the legal structure of the organizations? 

A Ue never reviewed the charter^ never were given a 
detailed explanation of the differences «^ the groups 



We 



0"'\\ -s^ 



just had a general sense that these were all^f>described this 
once as a developer who had many different subcontractors 



m''^\ 







^^»\ 



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PAGE 48 



underneath his wing, and we just saw all these organizations 
as organizations, basically, run and controlled by Mr. 
Channell . 

2 Did you have any understanding about the tax status 
of any ai these organizations, and particularly, I nean, did 
you have any understanding as to whether contributions to 
one organization were tax deductible, whereas contributions 
to another were not tax deductible? 

A I absolutely had no understanding » VBr those kinds 
oi. differences. In fact, if I may add, the first time I was 
made aware in any Kind of detail of the differences between 
the various groups, among the various groups, was in January 
of this year, in January of 1987, when an associate of Kr . 
Channell's, Cliff Smith, sat down--wa had lunch at one point, 
and he said, now, maybe I should tell you what the 
differences are, or explain each and every one of our 
organizations . 

At that point, ha gave m« a little more detailed 
explanation of these three organizations and all the others 
that Mr. Channell supposedly controlled. Just haybe to 
complete the answer — I did send different types, as in my 
role as media director ,.< notices to station managers where we 
tried to get clearance or access for air time, and I think 
in those, I remember saying something rtl^MFto the effect. 
The American Conservative Trust was a public interest group 



llHtiiSSife 



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HIk257000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 49 



dedicated to supporting the Administration in foreign policy 
MrtT which is as specific as I knew that to be. 

I remember in reviewing these documents in 1987, uhen 
this whole thing was coming about, that I saw another notice 
written by someone who worked for us .n Teresa Jacobs, who 
is Karola Jacobs' daughter--it is a very family oriented 
business top to bottom--and I think she was sending the same 
kind of letter to stations about the National Endowment for 
Preservation of Liberty and she described them in just the 
same terms and said at the bottom something like, NEPL is 
just like ♦«' American conservative -trust, something to that 



Pox.- ►-.\-' 



^- 



effect . 

Everyone in the agency >ra<— e eall y no feeling what the 
differences were. 

2 Hho Bade the decision as to which organizations 
should be identified in the disclaimer? 

A nr . Channell or one of his associates. 

fi Did youz agency have any role in making that 
decision? 

A Kevez. naybe someHhat relevant to the discussion 
is, I think, on two or three occasions, I was asked by Hr . 
Channell or one of his associates to contact their lawyer. 
I understand their lawyer was Curt Herge. is that right? 

fi Yes. 

A Whan Hr. Channell would have approved certain copy. 



HNClHSSfflEO 



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HNtiAssro 



PAGE SO 



but he would say something to the effect, well, maybe you 
should run it by nz . Heige to make sure it is okay and tell 
him bho the sponsoring organization was, which I felt showed 
nr . Channell, in our opinion, was somewhat meticulous in 
trying to make or ensure that certain spots funded by 
certain organizations could be funded by certain 
organizations and so forth. 

S Did you have any understanding of the criteria that 
either Mr. Channell or nr . Herge were using? 

A Ho. 

S To determine which organization sponsored which 
advertisements ? 

A No, I had no specifics; had no specific 
understanding of that. 

Q Why were you concerned about their being meticulous 
or not being meticulous? 

A I was not concerned about that, just an impression 
I had, in giving you a, maybe, perception of how we viewed 
this particular client. 

S From the agency's point of view, Mr. Goodman, what 
was the relationship between the client identification on 
the script and the disclaimer? For example, just looking at 
the first page of Exhibit 4, it indicates that the client is 
The American Conservative Trust and then there are three 
alternative disclaimers there. Is there necessarily, from 



yNMSltlFJ 



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HIR257000 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 51 



your point of view, any relationship between the 
identification of the client on the script and the 
disclaimer that will appear in tht advertisement? 

A Theoretically, yes. I say theoretically because 
arising--one of the results of our confusion about which 
group IS doing what spot, what have you, is that m a number 
of cases, we might identify on the first script the client 
IS T'le American Conservative Trust. Then we might learn, 
subsequently, the sponsoring organization was going to be 
NEPL. In those cases, I think I recall seeing a number of 
cases of a script where the disclaimer would say, paid for 
by NEPL and the clients identified at the topj, American 
Conservative Trust. 

What probably happened there was a revision and Carole 
Jacobs, or whoever was doing the typing, had failed to 
change the client's name to match the disclaimer. 

2 Has your billing done to the separate 
organizations, i.e., was billing done separately to the 
American Conservative Trust, International Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty, and Sentinel? 

A Hy understanding was the billing, meaning the 
invoices, went art projects — yas ^w«s billed to^particular 
organization . 

2 How did your agency determine which organization to 
bill for which advertisement? 



wir^rd 



688 



...= o.i)NfMSSiF!EO 



HAME: HIR257000 I 81^12? rS^.l-'J^i* f| S»« »^ PAGE 52 

127U A Well, ue always worked on the assumption that 

1275 whoever was identiiied in the disclaimer as a sponsoring 

1276 organization was the one we would bill. 

1277 2 So that was the basis for the identification of the 

1278 billing organization? 

1279 A That is correct. 

1280 2 So, if there were the case that the client was 

1281 identified as The American Conservative Trust, but the 

1282 disclaimer on the advertisement read national Endowment for 

1283 the Preservation of Liberty, it is your understanding that 
128U the practice within the firn would be to bill the National 

1285 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, is that correct? 

1286 A That is correct. 

1287 e I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 

1288 Exhibit 5 for identification a document produced by counsel 

1289 for Mr. Goodman, headed American Conservative Trust. On the 

1290 first line it states Congressional insert. 

1291 [Exhibit No. 5 was narked for identification.! 

1292 2 Kr . Goodman, I show you Goodman Deposition Exhibit 

1293 5 for identification and ask you if you recognize that 
129M document? 

1295 A Yes, I do. 

1296 S What is that document? 

1297 A It was prepared by someone in our agency to reflect 

1298 the subjects that were going to be used, or would be the 




689 



mmmm 



HknE HIR257000 V B 1 W i-i J*? «J I i S 4_ U PAGE 53 

1299 focus of television commercials that ue were proposing to do 

1300 for The American Conservative Trust, and this particular 

1301 series of spots--if I may take a raoment-- 

1302 (Discussion off the record. 1 

1303 THE HITMESS: I am sorry. Yes, this was a sheet 

1304 reflecting the subjects of spots that uere going to be done 

1305 invoking the SDI issue, also known as Star Wars, as an issue 

1306 that might make some kind of difference in political 

1307 campaigns that were on-going. I know, at least I can say, 

1308 that was the case in the first two subjects identified, which 

1309 are. Tim Uirth, who was the then Congressman from the state 

1310 of Colorado^, subsequently 4 won election to the U.S. Senate, 

1311 and Alan Cranston, who was running for re-election^ and_*»rt- 

1312 successfully for the U.S. Senate in the state of California. 

1313 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

13 14 Q This sheet, you say, was prepared by someone uithm 

1315 your agency? 

1316 A I believe it was, yes. I think, Tom. it was 

1317 probably prepared for whoever it was that actually went in 

1318 and produced these particular spots. 

1319 2 If you will look, Mr. Goodman, at Exhibit 4 and 

1320 particularly the advertisements dated October 17th, 1986,- 

1321 your commercial number 1010. 

1322 A Okay. 

1323 2 If you will look at that script for ''Back Down'' 



mmwm 



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HIR257000 ||i>|l|,B 21 A-'^irBa' II PAGE 54 
and then look at , Exhibit 5, nr . Goodman, does Exhibit 5 
appear to you to be related to the ''Back Down*' script? 
A Yes. 

e Does this appear to be some additional copy to 
tailor the ''Back Down'' script to a particular campaign? 

A Okay, the sheet marked Exhibit 5, my recollection 
is it was to be used for ten second spots based on the same 
-""'lii "■j"^-''-- <•''■»'«■» and 111 *' intent as the script you have 



identified as ''Back Down'* commercial number 1010, 



10 10 is 



a 30 second version oi this idea, and Exhibit 5 is the ten 
second — what we call ten-second ,A»«4t' o£ the 30 second. 

2 Going back to Exhibit 3, which is the list of the 
completed spots, under the ACT list there is an indication 
of a ''Back Down'* spot being prepared for Cranston, Uirth, 
Bryant, Uright> and Coleman. Is it your understanding that 
those ''Back Down*' spots are related to the script for 
commercial number 1010 which is a part of Exhibit 4? 

A Yes, that is my understanding. 

2 And does Exhibit S appear to you to be the script 
for the shorter ten-second spots that are reflected on that 
list under the title, ''Remember''? 

A That is correct. 

fi For the same raises? 

A Yes, sir. 

2 I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 



wm®^-^ 



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Exhibit 6 for idantif ication a 13 page script produced by 
counsel for Mr. Goodman headed, ''The Nicaraguan Contrast 
An Update Narration and Voice Script 10/10/85''. 

[Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification. 1 

2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 6 for 
identification. Do you recognize that document? 

A Ves, I do. 

2 Hhat is that document? 

A This was a script that was prepared at Mr. 
Channell's request for a film that *f wanted to do on the 
Nicaraguan resistance, and my recollection was that this was 
r f -i 1 1 - ^ -i prepared . and produced after we had been shown a 
film that had already been finished, and our understanding 
was it was either filmed or coordinated, or one way or 
another, by Hr . Miller and his associates , on the situation 
in Nicaragua. 

Ue were asked to view the film with Hr . Channell one 
day, I believe we were up in our office outside of 
Baltimore, and not be indelicate, but the reviews from that 
particular film were not »«9«-,' fTiey were very disappointing, 
I think it was really nor only they did not get the point 
across^ they were trying to in this particular film, but.-a« 
one of the more amateurish attempts at a moving piece of 
film documentary we had seen in quite a time. 



X shouldn't have used the word amate 



urish'. it was not 




s: 



OL.i 



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UNMSSIFIED 



PAGE 56 



the best effort.- So, we weze asked to *f iuu it. We gave Mr. 
Channell our assessments, basically, we don' t really like 
this at all, and he said, can you do something about it? Ue 
said, we will try. So, Ron Hilner went about the task, and 
he wrote the script, which my recollection is, we eventually 
~produced--f rom which we eventually produced a film called, 
''The Nicaraguan Contras Update''. 

2 Do you know whose handwriting is on these pages? 

A That is Hr . Hilner's handwriting .»ft^' refer ring to 
visuals^ he saw to match the copy. 

2 Now, it is written at the left hand of the first 
page title of, ''The Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua an 
Update' ' ? 

A Yes. 

fi If you will look again at Exhibit 3, the first item 
appears to be, ''The Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua' ' --is it 
your understanding that this was the shooting script for it-- 

A Yes. 

fi First item on Exhibit 3, that correct? I ask the 
repottax to mark as Goodman Oaposition Exhibit 7 for 
identification a series of sheets produced by counsel for 
nx . Goodman concerning various advertisements identified in 
Exhibit 3 which contain a combination of text of the 
advertisements and photographs. 

[Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.] 



ONClASSlFiFO 



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moo 

lUO 1 

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HIR257000 IBS'S^JlBnWS!! :»-»/ PAGE 57 

2 Kc . Goodman, uould you examine the pages that are 
contained m Exhibit 7 and tell rae if you recognize those 
pages ? 

A Yes, we do--I are sorry--y6s, I do. 
2 Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record. 1 
BY MR. FRYHAH: 

Do you recognize those pages? 
Yes . 

And were they prepared by your agency? 
Yes , they were . 



2 
A 

e 

A 
2 
A 



How would you describe these pages? 

In the ad business, tKey have a thing called. 



•'story board>' ' or ''story boarding'*, and traditionally 
what happens before you actually go out and produce an ad, 
you will go out with an »**i-»-fc- conception of each and every 
visual f rame--trtw:«^i frame sometimes with •- copy that goes 
with it that you present to a client so that he or she can 
get a good *«*i of how that spot is going to go and see 
specifically hou copy matches visuals. 

In this case, we did it somewhat in reverse. We, per 
Hr . Channell's request or one of his associates, we would do 
these after a spot had been filmed, after it had been 
produced,,and Ron Milner, in our agency, would go home at 
night and put this spot up on his VCR and freeze-frarae it-- 




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UNCUSSIFIEI 



HIR257000 IIIVHll JMlllISS II IB PAGE 58 
at different tira^s take out his camera and shoot pictures 
frame-by-frame. It wasn't the most professional thing in 
the world, perhaps, but it worked and we would then take 
those pictures, just take a piece with the appropriate copy, 
and with the pictures in the spot, and would get camera- 
ready art done for these pieces--then send--I think we would 
then send, in most cases, copy of the camera-ready art to 
Mr. Channell or, in many cases, rtr . Conrad, who would then 
approve it and say, that looks great, then take^camera-ready 
art and have it reproduced, generally, in volumes of, I 
think, 500 pieces at a time. 

For each spot they wanted 500 copies — glossy copies of 
these particular wha t- we call ''story-boards'*. 

2 Did they indicate to you what use they intended to 
make of these? 

A Yes. On more than one occasion, he indicated they 

were going to be used in one form or another for 

fundraising. They would be sent or given--*r^ one of the 

Other* to the contributors to let them know •w)v«-tr about the 
) 

spots that were actually on the air or going on the air. 

He were told this was for fundraising purposes. 

Q Would the text in these ''story-boards'' be taken 
from the scripts which are included in Exhibit 4? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q How, your initial zAtentlon by the Channell 



mimm 



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yNCLASSIRED 



HIR257000 IJC t CJL.C ^UOII i^U PA<~ 59 

organizations was for an issue advocacy campaign related to 
Nicaragua, is that correct? 

A That IS correct. 

2 In 1985 and 1986, from your knowledge of the work 
for this client, would you say that most of your agency's 
work was dona in connection with that issue advocacy 
campaign? 

A Meaning in Nicaragua? 

2 Meaning the Nicaraguan-related campaign. 

A That is correct. 

2 You did some work for other projects for Mr. 
Channell? 

A Some SDI--most of it was dedicated to the Nicaraguan 
resistance, that is correct. 

2 Turning again to Exhibit 3, which is the list of 
completed advertisements, can you go through that list and, 
if necessary feel free to refer to Exhibit 4 or Exhibit 7 if 
you need to, and identify the advertisements that were 
related in any way to the Nicaragua campaign? 

A Okay. The first-- 

2 If you will read the name for the record . 

A Freedom Fighters of Nicaragua, which was the 13 
iiinute, 16 second f ilm--rreedom ican' t ;i**rk--Korean Airliner, 
Party's Over, McDonald Hemorial--ncOonald Message-- 

S Any others under the — 



UNC 






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UNCLASS1FI[I 



PAGE 



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A No others listed under ACT. 

2 So the others under ACT, Morning oi Peace, related 
to what? 

A That related to the President's trip, and really 
talking here about the threat of nuclear war and trying to 
make the world safer for everybody--Morning of Peace profiles 
a little girl waking up in the morning hoping for -Uve day 
and many more days of a nuclear-free world. We were :ust 
cheering the President on using the SDI issue, »r- using this 
issue of nuclear peace. 

2 Then there is the series of ads listed on Exhibit 3 
under ACT headed. Remember and Back Down, which we have 
already reviewed. 

A Yes, sir. 

2 And those related to the Congressional campaigns in 
the fall of 1986? 

A That is correct. 

MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question. 
I don't think we have established any of those related to 
any Congressional campaign. I think they established they 
related to th« SDI issue and I don't think we have any of 
these that were directly related to a political campaign. 
BY MR. FRYMAM! 
2 Let ma ask the question. Did they relate to 
political campaigns in the fall of 1986? 



Mmsim 



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uNCUssm 



PAGE 61 



A That is a good question. It was our understanding 
from Mr. Channall that the SDI issue was a salient, perhaps, 
(iev-jrs-xvB',issue in the fall campaigns. Ue had done work on 
the SDI issue previous to that with Horning of Peace and 
others. You have to ask Mr. Channell, specifically, uhat 
uas going through his mind uith these spots. Our impression 
certainly these were being used--certainly they were aired in 
the last week or two of the carapaign--in our case one place-- 
Color ado--very clear to us--this was luuiiiiiTy -just promoting 
SDI issues for the sake of the issue, it had other 
ramifications . 

2 Was it your und«zstanding that these ads were 
directed to try to defeat particular candidates? 

A Well, in the case of the one spot that actually uas 
aired in this whole series in Colorado-- 

8 That was with regard to Wirth? 

^ wH_~' t_ '^u «; — 

A Yes. sir. It ir«rs very clear to us that uas the 
intention of Hr . Channel!. I don't know what his intention 
uas. For instance, I see the same problem with Mr. Cranston 
even though we nevez got to the point of putting that on 
television. I can't recall with the other three uhat the 
intention was. I don't Know if they uere involved in a very 
close campaign or not. 1% that was really ft salient here . 

e Of the five that were prepared or the five that are 
identified here relating to five candidates, that being 




698 



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yNCUSSIflED 



HIR2S7000 112118. « £J '%.'4II 1% ii PAGE 62 

Cranston, Wirth, Bryant, Wright, and Coleman, the only ad 
that ran was in the Uiith campaign? 

A That is correct, and there were two ads for the 
Uirth campaign. 

2 A 30-second ad and a ten-second ad? 

A That is correct. 

2 Turning back again to Exhibit 3, Mr. Goodman, if 
you will look at the advertisements under the heading, NEPL, 
if you would identify which of those advertisements concern 
the Nicaraguan issue? 

A Well, again you see listed--the two spots listed 
under ACT called, McDonald Memorial and McDonald Message. A 
spot called. Facts, They Are Us, Letter, Flag--I don't see 
the script for this--I am pretty sura the spot review 
goes--ThroM Money, Terrorist Inf luence-R--revised-- 

2 On the script for Refugees goes, if you would look 
in Exhibit 4 under the date of February 19th, 1986, 
commercial number 6- "n-^ " 

A Yes, sir. In fact, that wn^ Refugees did relate to 
Nicaraguan resistance. 

2 Throw Money? 

A Terrorist Influence-R, meaning revised, Helicopters- 
R, denoting it was revised--Reconnaisance , True Colors, and 
Nicaraguan Update. 

2 And just to make sure that the record is clear, Mr. 



699 



HIR257000 






PAGE 63 



NAME : 

1549 Goodman, in the group of advertisements listed under NEPL, 

1550 the ones that did not relate to Nicaragua were uhich? 

1551 A Okay--thank you--Presidani ' s Oath, Will They Hait 

1552 also was not involved m that issue. 

1553 e Mow, on Exhibit 3 again, the advertisements listed 

1554 under Sentinel, which of those related to Nicaragua? 

1555 A All of then, all the ones listed. 

1556 2 Mr. Goodman, do you recall--did Oliver North ever 

1557 provide any assistance in the preparation of any of the 

1558 advertisements that are reflected in Exhibit 3 through 7? 

1559 A He did not. His office, however, on one occasion 

1560 did provide us with some film footage that was arranged for 
156 1 initially through Mr. Channell and/or some of his 

1562 associates, but we never had any contact with Oliver North 

1563 that in any way, to our knowledge, in •^^mr way had impact on 

1564 what-^how the scripts read or .choice of visuals or anything 

1565 having to do with the ads themselves. 

1566 Q What was the advertisement that you were just 

1567 referring to? 

1568 A Theca was an adv«rtisement--well , there w eie some 

1569 film footage wa were looking for, which was some footage of 

1570 the new Soviet issue, MI helicopters, I think it was, HI 

1571 2i«'s--sorry I can't recollect. It is the new super gunship 

1572 that the President and others have alluded to, and in 

1573 discussing the increasing militarization in Nicaragua under 



Ipi AC'^iniT! 




ntij 



700 



!Ek: 



NAME 

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HIR257000 ^jiflj^l^OiTir 
President Ortega ^-fHHl we asked, as we had on a number of 



PAGE 



6U 



occasions. Ton, to iind--get sone ideas where we could find 
certain kinds oi footage. 

Kr . Channel! said one of his associates said something 
to the effect, maybe we can help you here and eventually the 
result of that--he put us in touch with Fawn Hall, Hr . 
North's assistant, and she said that she had some footage 
that we were looking f or« she would be sending it to us . 
Now, as far as where that footage came from, I know that I 
was not involved personally in the discussion, initial 
discussion--it might have been rtr . Uilner, where it was 
actually coning from. 

Though I have talked to him and I an not sure he is 
totally sure either. But, it did cone iron Faun Hall and 
she mailed it^ She nessengered it or Federal Expressed it 
over to us, and eventually it was used in one or two of the 
spots you see listed on Exhibit 3. 

8 Was one of the spots entitled. Helicopters? 

A It was. 

fi And youx knowledge of this cones fron conversations 
with Hx . Hllnex or do you have other independent knowledge? 

A I had at least one conversation with Mr. Channell 
about the need for this kind of footage, and ny 
understanding is Mx . Hilner also had at least one 
conversation with Hx . Channell or sonebody else, and I had 



mmimi 



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KAnC : 

1S99 
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jWiiLMhi ill 



HIR2S7000 (tErTJS^ !>* .^ ft n -^ ;- 3 B 2 Li 1 PAGE 65 
at least one conversation with Faun Hall to, essentially, to 
a-range for the delivery of footage she, at that point, had 
in her possession. 

2 In your conversation with Mr. Channell, did he say 
that you could obtain this footage from Colonel North's 
office or Fawn Hall, or anything to that effect? 

A I have no recollection of that, no I don't. He may 
have said that, I just don't recall that. 

C What is your source of information as to uhy 
Colonel North's office was contacted, is this Mr. Hilner 
reporting to you, or is there some other source of 
inf ornation? 

A Ron and I both had received calls about this 
particular issue, this particular film footage. If the 
question is, uhy would we call Colonel North's office and 
talk to, in this case. Faun Hall, ue were directed to do so 
by Mr. Channell. 

2 You were not directed, you don't recall Mr. 
Channell directing you to do this? 

A I don't recall him telling me to uorK through 
Colonel North's office to get this footage. Hy 
understanding was that Spitz Channell or one of his 
associates initiated the process whereby that footage uas 
purveyed and, at that point> ue uere toldwthatyuas in the 
possession of Faun Hall. •lia. got that film from her. 






'i^i 



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NAME: 
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HIR257000 



UtlftHSSiRED 



PA- 



66 



2 What I am trying to determine is, uho told whom? 
Is it your understanding that Hr . Uilner is the person in 
your agency who was told to pick up the footage at Colonel 
North's oifice? 

A I believe I was the one who was told that Fawn Hall 
had the footage, to call and make arrangements for her to 
send that to us. 

Q All right, maybe I am confused by your earlier 
answer. X understood your earlier answer that in your 
discussion with Hr . Channell, he had not indicated to you 
that you could obtain this footage at Colonel Horth's 
office . 

A I don't recall him having indicated that in the 
first conversation. 

2 Was there a subsequent conversation that you 
recall? 

A Not that I recall, but I believe, perhaps, Ron 
talked to Mr. Channell about that footage. He was very 
interested in getting it, if possible, and that is how it 
all developed. I am a little bit — as you can see — I am a 
little unclear about the specifics because I think both Ron 
and I, at different points, interfaced in the process. 

S You are unclear as to whether the second 
conversation directing the agency to get the footage at 
Colonel North's office — whether that conversation was with 



Kussife 



703 






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.IR257000 y^i^LHiiOidty 



H1KZ5/UUU «\ii"HilJK i-«:i:^Jin^ i,S«W PAGE 67 
you or with Mr. Uilner? 

A That is correct. 

2 Is that correct? 

A That IS correct. 

2 But you recall, then, a later conversation when you 
spoke to faun Hall? 

A Yes. 

2 About arranging for the pick up o± the footage? 

A That is correct. 

2 What do you recall about that conversation? 

A Nothing extraordinary, just a short conversation 
and she indicated she had the footage, and ua agreed on the 
method of delivery, which was either by messenger or Federal 
Express. It was probably by messenger. They wanted to 
protect that film with their lives . 

2 Had you met Fawn Hall before? 

A I had no recollection of having met Faun Hall at 
any time during this whole process. 

2 When you called here, did she indicate that she was 
expecting your call? 

A Yes, she did. 

2 She indicated the footage was ready to be shipped 
to you? 

A Yes. 

2 But you had no direct contact with Colonel North? 




704 



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HIR2S 



• « P2 « I"" ^k 



2 And, to your knowledge, was this the only incident 
where Colonel North's office provided any assistance to your 
agency in connection with the preparation of any of the 
advertisements for Mr. Channell? 

A That is corr&ct. 

8 The helicopter footage that you have been referring 
to, is that footage of what is known as a Hind helicopter? 

A That was our understanding, yes. 

2 Now, turning again tc Exhibit 3 Hr . Goodman, which 
is the list of completed advertisements by your agency, a 
number of those advertisements were run on various 
television stations in the United States, were they not? 

A That is correct. 

2 Do you have any information that the time on the 
television station for running those ads was ever purchased 
in any manner other than through your agency? 

A We have no knowledge of that. 

2 Oo you have any information that would indicate, in 
any way, that that every occurred? 

A No. 

HR. SCOTT: Did you understand the question? 

THE WITNESS: Off the record. 

HR. FRYMAN: Let's go off the record. 

[Discussion off the record. 1 






705 



.^.^^^•«o mMM 



HknZ nj.K^3/uuu HIH^iTB V^^ifJ-i^ 3 lU W PAGE 69 

1699 ( Recess at 12:15.1 

1700 . BY MR. FRYHAK! 

1701 S Reierring again to Exhibit 3, Mr. Goodman, do you 

1702 have any information that indicates, m any way, that any of 

1703 the charges relating to any advertisements on Exhibit 3 by 

1704 your agency, or any of the charges for the purchase of 

1705 advertising time on television stations for such ads, uas 

1706 billed by your agency to any entity or person other than The 

1707 American Conservative Trust, The National Endowment for the 

1708 Preservation of Liberty, or Sentinel? 

1709 A I don't recall, I am not auare of any billings to 

1710 any other groups. 

1711 2 And you are not auare of any information that would 

1712 indicate that there uas any such billing? 
17 13 A I am not auare of any information. 

171U 2 So, just to make this totally clear on the record, 

1715 to the best of your knouledge, all charges by your agency 

1716 related to these advertisements, and all purchases of 
17 17 advertising time relating to these advertisements, were 

1718 billed either to The American Conservative Trust, The 

1719 National Endoument for the Preservation of Liberty, or 

1720 Sentinel? 

1721 A That is correct. 

1722 2 I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 

1723 Exibit 8 for identification a document produced by counsel 



UNCUSSFiEO 



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libUiudlutU 



HIR257000 %# • 1 V««J aUif.*? t < aHvUj PAGE 70 

for Mr. Goodman, the first page is on the letterhead of The 
Robert Goodnan Agency, Inc.. and the second page indicates 
that the document is entitled, ' ' NEPL/ACT/Sentinel : A Media 
Chronolgoy 1/10/87. •• 

[Exhibit No. 8 was narked for identification.] 

2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Goodman Deposition Exhibit 
8 for identification and ask you if you recognize that 
document? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Here you involved in the preparation of this 
document? 

A Yes , I was . 

2 What was the reason that this document was 
prepared ? 

A May I review it for a second? 

2 Yes. 

A I was directed to prepare this summary. I call it 



a paid media chronology. It really tries to summarize all 



y^. 



/^^ y. 



of 



of the various media, flighta by flight»--I mean series -»« ^■ 
programs that we had produced over the course of our 
relationship with Mr. Channell and his affiliated 
organizations from April of 1985 through the end of 1986 

My recollection is that this document or this 
information was requested by a person affiliated with Mr. 
Richard Hillat. This was dated January 10th. It was 




^ipg) 



HOdll I 



707 



HIR257000 



wimiie 



PAGE 71 



HAHE 

17M9 probably closa to that point, his name was Jeff--first name 

1750 was Jefi. 

1751 2 Was it Keifez or Kefer? 

1752 A Yes, six. Jeff Keiiez oc Keiez . He said^ that, for 

1753 their purposes, they just needed to have a record of what 
17514 had bean aired, including basically mote importantly, he 

1755 wanted to know how much money we had spent over the course 

1756 of our relationship with NEPL, ACT, Sentinel; and this was 

ri\, '■ ■ ^^^ 

1757 provided, I believe ^to them," and at a later point, may have 

1758 been provided U^^n- per request to Kr . Channell. 

1759 My best recollection was that Jeff Keifer is the one 

1760 who called us and wanted us to give him/ykind of a summary of 

1761 what had been spent. 

1762 8 Now, rtr . Goodman, in this document, for example, on 

1763 the second page of the document which is Exhibit 8, there 
176U are numbers used to identify spots. At the top of the page 

1765 there is number 301, which refers to the spot headed, 

1766 • 'Freedom Can't Work*' and number 302 refers to the spot, 

1767 ''Korean Airliner''. Then down in the spots aired column 

1768 below that, there is reference to those numbers. Do those 

1769 numbers refer to the commercial number which are on the 

1770 commercial scripts, some of which are, or all of which are, 
177 1 included in Goodman Deposition Exhibit 4 for identification? 

1772 A That is correct. May I make one point of 

1773 clarification? I thinK the request from Jeff was just 



mmM 



708 



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HIR257000 



ffllSSiB 



PAGE 



72 



for--he wanted to know how much money was spent on each of 
the flights. I thought., I pride myself , on being thorough 
and somewhat of a perfectionist. I thought for his 
purposes, just for our purposes, it would be good to get a 
complete as possible , file as I could of the various flights: 
which is why I think I wanted to put in which spots aired 
and •>which of the markets, and so forth. 

1 don't recall him having asked for that information. 
I think he was only interested in the dollars and cents. 

8 You indicate in the first page of this memo that 
you are still trying to validate the sponsorship of the 
third media flight which you described as the ''Morning of 
Peace ' ' project. 

A That is correct. 

2 I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 
Exhibit 9 for identification another document produced by 
counsel for the Goodman Agency, which is on the letterhead 
of The Goodman Agency, the document is dated July 9th. 1987. 
and it contains financial information relating to 1) ' 'First 
Project''. 2) ''Horning of Peace Project'', and 3) ''October 
23. 1985-Production of the TV Spots'*. 

[Exhibit Ko. 9 was marked for identification.] 
2 Hx . Goodman. I ask you to look at Goodman 

Deposition Exhibit 9 for identification, and I ask if you 

recognize that document? 



i^( 






709 



NAME ■■ 
1799 
1800 

180 1 
1802 
1803 
18014 
1805 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 

181 1 
1812 
1813 
181tt 
1815 
1816 
1817 
1818 
1819 
1820 
1821 
1822 
1823 



l^hLh^Cii U..y PAr- 7: 



I don't recollect this particular document, but I 



HIR257000 

A 
was aware of its preparation. 

2 Wore you involved in the preparation of this 
document? 

A 



I am sure I was consulted at some point. ff%t my 



knowledge about the three things alluded to in this 
piece--but ivr- best I believe. Tom, this was prepared by 
Colleen Vickers. our accountant. 

2 Do you know why this was prepared? 

A Hell, let me go back. Uhen the press iirst started 
to get interested in this story, vis a vis Mr. Channell, in 
our desire to be as forthright and candid as possible in 
this, because we, as these stories started to break, we 
found ourselves very surprised by the course of events and 
very unaware of lots of things being talked about and 
discussed, and we had an occasion to, rn that with that 
approach in mind, tightly or wrongly, in some ways I wish we 
could have started over again, we tried to field each and 
every press call that came in because, seemingly, Mr. 
Channell and others weren't offering a heck of a lot of 
press conferences at this point in time. 

He apparently seemed to be likely targets for any kind 
of information having to do with Hr . Channell 's activities. 
During the course of that, we thought we were asked a 
question by a reporter at one point about^dollars and cents 



mhW 




710 



NAHE: 
1824 
1825 
1826 
1827 
1828 
1829 
1830 
1831 
1832 
1833 
183(4 
1835 
1836 
1837 
1838 
1839 
1840 
18U1 
18142 
18143 
18(4(4 
1845 
18(46 
18(47 
18(48 




fiiSSlRB - •■ 



HIR257000 



of our relationship with Mr. Channell, and ue did a quick 

response to one question, r^ review probably within half hour 

or less of our books and gave out certain numbers. We had 

■-.^ o-^.^iv'^^V'-f- 
spent so much with ACT, spent so much with SeiiLiiluiil , and so 

much with NEPL . 

t ^ ^'' '■)-.• ^ ■ . 
Then, more than one press reporter started to ji i bb iimu ' 

the possible inconsistency between what we were reporting 



1 i'( 



h-d been spent with these various organ! 



izations »ft« wi 



th the 



other information they gleaned from other places, so we then 
decided we would embark^ 'that plus the fact the story was 
becoming more than k«4 material* we would embark on doing a 
review of our own books to make absolutely sure--checking all 
of our invoices, all of our billings, about the accounting 
in this relationship. 

On this, this page, und«r„item listed '"Morning of 
Peace Project No. 2*', we discovered that the biggest 
supposed discrepancy between what our books and billing 
reflected and what we were hearing Mr. Channell was saying 
involved the ' 'Horning of Peace'' project. It was a spot 
that we produced with the disclaimer of The American 
Conservative Trust. Our recollection is we were told this 
was to be a responsibility sponsored by The American 
Conservative Trust by either Mr. Channell or one of his 
associates . 

We billed all of the expenses of the time buy and 




711 



Hxnt- 

1849 
18S0 
1851 
1852 
1853 
185U 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 
1862 
1863 
186>4 
1865 
1866 
1867 
1868 
1869 
1870 
187 1 
1872 
1873 






HIR257000 lUS^i.S >iA :\..'^-iV iT ^}' PAGE 75 

production to The Araetican Conservative Trust on this 

particular spot. We liOt only had, going back to your 

earlier questions, not only had a visual disclaimer, but 

audio disclaimer as well. So, for the viewer, someone 

reviewing this particular spot, there is absolutely no 

question that this spot was paid for by The American 

Conservative Trust as- seen and heard, as you see. 

Even after the fact when, I think, I discovered we had 

failed to bill Hr . Channell for a couple hundred dollars 

worth of time b uy , I think a spot we added ~vn to the 

schedule, I think I offered a short letter apologizing^the 

oversight saying he still owed whatever the amount was to 

tnis project on The American Conservative Trust. So, from 

start to finish, we were under the clear impression we had a 

clear direction that this was an American Conservative Trust - 

type sponsored spot. The reason it is highlighted on this 

memo is that Mr. Channell subsequently claimed that it 

should have been a spot sponsored by HEPL, Kational 

Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. And he had a 

conversation with Bob Goodman at one point about that, 

sometime earlier this year. 

And, I think, it became clear that there is a 

difference in recollections ^if that is the wordjabout this 

'-'rrj, -^y 
particular project — Mr. Channell saying ** , essentially, that 

this should have been a NEPL project, and we, our agency 






712 






HAHE: HIR257000 V ■ ■ V t^xtf »■«' -«»■ pj^j. 75 

1874 saying, well, we not only billed everything to ACT, and even 

1875 wrote a letter f«T after the project had finished, was 

f • ,. ,■■■■■.. • ■' V':"- 

1876 completed, we alluded to ACT, for heaven's sake, the spot it 

1877 had a visual and audio disclaimer saying ACT as well. 

1878 So, that is why we call this a discrepancy because, 

1879 upon review of our books in late 1986 or early 1987, -Mten we 

1880 thought we had better do a thorough search of--that we 

1881 discovered to our surprise that a payment for this project 

1882 was made to us, not from ACT, American Conservative Trust, 

1883 but NEPL, National Endowment for the Preservation of 

1884 Liberty. 

1885 e Uhy did you care? 

1886 A Ue didn't care. In fact, our aui,umi4 -when we say 

1887 our accountant, Helva at this point, we talked to her about 

1888 this. And she said all along she didn't know the difference 

1889 betwf^en one organization and an e thcr -, and she said, if I got 

1890 «100,000 from Hr . Channall regardless of what the masthead 
189 1 on the check was, tha t: it matched what was being asked for 

1892 in the invoice, whatever — that that was enough to satisfy her 

1893 given haz interpretation of — without any input and one shared 

1894 by all of us that we didn't know the difference, if there 

1895 were any, between the various organizations. 

1896 e What prompted the preparation of Goodman Deposition 

1897 Exhibit 9 in July of 1987? Was there soma event at that 

1898 time? 



UNttilSSIflE[ 



713 



HAHE: 
1899 
1900 
190 1 
1902 
1903 
190M 
190S 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
19 10 
19 11 
1912 
1913 
191U 
1915 
1916 
1917 
1918 
1919 
1920 
1921 
1922 
1923 



iil'LfiDCinLi 



HIR257000 W * 1 v «-!.■•*' ■^ - . •m^— PkGt 11 

A No event, ue just wanted to see hou ue could, 
basically, square accounts. Uhat had happened and what our 
books had reflected. In other words, ue , m doing a review 
of the accounting-^review.'all of our books, carae up with uhat 

ue call a discrepancy in amounts that exceeded $120,000,— 

Host of which had to do with this ''Horning of Peace*' spot. 

e Has this July 9th memo a follow-up to the January 
10th memo which is Exhibit 8? 

A No. 

e Well, for example, what I am getting at, in the 
cover page you indicate that there is still some open 
questions with regard to the ''Horning of Peace'' project. 

A That is correct. 

2 But it is not your recollection that Exhibit 9 is 
with some follow-on effort to clarify what is--the questions 
that are left open in Exhibit 8? 

A It was an effort for us to understand what the 
discrepancies were, including the ''Horning of Peace'' 
project, but we didn't prepare the July 9th, 1987 document 
as a part of or a — 

2 Supplement to-- 

A Supplement to — right — the January 10th, 1987 
document . 

2 You don't recall that any specific event prompted 
the preparation of Exhibit 9? 






714 



1924 

1925 

1926 

1927 

1928 

1929 

1930 

1931 

1932 

1933 

1934 

1935 

1936 

1937 

1938 

1939 

1940 

1941 

1942 

1943 

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1945 

1946 

1947 

1948 



HIR2S7000 



UflEUSSsr 



PAGE 



78 



A Tom, early in the process, meaning the process of 
review, ue discovered that--discovered this problem so to 
speak with the '"Horning of Peace*' spot that ue had billed 
it as an ACT spot--everything I have revealed to you, and 
that ue had received payment for it, not from ACT but MEPL, 
which our accountant, or Helva, had taken in and deposited, 
and so forth--and not knowing there is any problem or any 
difference between the two. 

MR. SCOTT: Just for the record, I believe Exhibit 
9 was not part of the original document production by The 
Goodman Agency. I believe Exhibit 9 was a document produced 
by Robert Goodman at an informal interview. 

THE WITNESS: That is correct. 

MR. SCOTT: I believe it was prepared for Robert 
Goodman's benefit to assist him in that informal interview 
in answering questions that you or any members of the 
Committee might have with regard to these issues. 

HR. SCHHAIT: That informal committee interview uas 
on July 9th. 

THE HITHESS: That is correct. 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 
2 Is that your recollection? 
A Yes, sir. 

2 Going back to Exhibit 8, on page 3 of that exhibit, 
the Flight 3, the reference to the ''Horning of Peace' ' 



1^! 



;1 F.^^RFO 



715 



MAHE : 
1949 
19S0 
1951 
1952 
1953 
1954 
1955 
1956 
1957 
1958 
1959 
1960 
1961 
1962 
1963 
19614 
1965 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 



.....UMCliSSlBEi 



PAGE 79 

interview--! said page 3, but it is page 2 of the memo, it is 
the third page including the cover page--you have been 
sponsored by and you have both organizations listed there, 
what was the reason for that? 

A Because of the confusion. This document was 



-^^> 



\r}i 



prepared as ue h«v« gone through the review process, and as 
alluded to in the cover memo, we are still trying to 
validate the precise and proper sponsorship of the third 
media flight listed in the study in brackets, the ''Horning 
of Peace'' project. X wanted to make darn sure before I 
made any firm statement that this was funded by ACT, that we 
could, in fact, back that up with our invoices and billings. 
and letters, or any other kind of correspondence, and, in 
fact, *X the review, were able to do that. 

e I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 
Exhibit 10 for identification a series of pages on the 
letterhead of The Robert Goodman Agency, Inc., headed, 
''HEPL Freedom Fighters TV National Spot Placement 
Television Analysis Harket Overview* '. 

I will state for the record that the copy of this 
document that is being marked today is a copy that was 
produced by counsel for another entity. I am not certain 
whether or not this document was included in the Goodman 
production. It may have been. But I just want to make 
clear for the record that the copy that is being marked was 






716 



NAME: 
1974 
1975 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
1984 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 
1993 
1994 
1995 
1996 
1997 
1998 



HIR257000 linyL.l'Ji/^V?^ ''*'=-•' 



PAC- 80 
PEoduced by anothet organization. 

[Exhibit No. 10 uas marked for identification. ] 

8 nr . Goodman, I ask you to look at Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 10 for identification and tell me if you 
recognize that document? 

A Yes, I do. 

8 Were you involved in the preparation of this 
document? 

A I prepared this document. 

8 What uas the reason this uas prepared? 

A Tom, this and other documents like it uare 
prepared--this is a NEPL freedom fighter pro ject--uere 
prepared in the first part of 1986 as I tried as a media 
director--part of ray responsibility uith any client uas to 
try to "9^^ them a sense of uhat ue call*,- the price of 
admission i« in doing television for any particular project. 

Without the benefit of knouing uhich markets they might 
uant to use in this particular carapaign-;\campaign uhere our 
understanding uas, certainly, and clearly, that ue uere 
trying to influence a pending vote in Washington on contra 
aid. That without any benefit of any input on uho or uhere 
ue might go in the country, I undertook an independent 
analysis without any input from — raaHy--from anybody-took a 
lot of guesses uhere this program might be going and hou to 
make those educated guesses. 






717 



NAME 
1999 
2000 

200 1 
2002 
2003 
20014 
2005 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 

201 1 
2012 
2013 
201>4 
2015 
2016 
2017 
20 18 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 






HIR257O00 Ujti.-C .;*•.«-.:',: k i '■ « ul PAGE 81 

Well. educate <^ in the sense that I "Wtrtr back on votes 

' ■ \- 'i-L 
in, I think, 1985, r o fe aB including votes on the Boland 

Amendment and other key^ supposedly key, contra aid or what I 

considered to be important votes. And, at that point, I had 

had what seemed to be likely or possible suing votes or 

Congressmen who might--who seemed to have voted on both sides 

of the issue, depending on the amendment or the vote that 

was before the House at that point, that i»«4« an intelligent 

campaign or any other campaign of influence, be considered 

persuadable. And this was done simply so I could tell Mr. 

Channell and his associates. Give them an idea what the 

price of admission was, what the cost of doing a national 

television program might be. 

2 Let me make sure I understand the basic nature of 
this document. This is a planning document? 

A Yes , sir . 

C Is that correct? 

A Yes, sir, planning fox my purposes, so, to get a 



feel for what the 



<^»»t- might be and, certainly, planning for 



Mr. Channell so he could have a sense of what, perhaps, how 
much money he ^ going to need to raise to do the program as 
outlined . 

Q So, this is a budgeting document rather than a 
report of expenditures that have already occurred? 

A That is correct. 




718 



NAME : 
202U 
2025 
2026 
2027 
2028 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
203(« 
2035 
2036 
2037 
2038 
2039 
2040 
2041 
2042 
2043 
2044 
2045 
2046 
2047 
2048 



HIR257000 



mm. 







PAGE 



82 



2 Is that correct? 

A Ves> sir. 

HR. SCOTT: That particular document, I think, ue 
did produce that and this particular part of it is 
incomplete. I think we also produced it with a cover 
letter. Adam, that explained its purpose--the fact it uas 
just to be used as a planning type document. 
THE WITNESS: That is right. 
HR. SCOTT: Off the record. 

[Discussion off the record. ] 
BY HR. FRYHAN! 

2 Back on the record. 

Kr . Scott, as I indicated at the beginning, this 
document may have well been in the materials produced by you 
on behalf of Mr. Goodman. It is just that, in selecting the 
materials for the deposition today, this particular document 
ue selected from another source. 

X ask the reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition 
Exhibit 1 1 for identification documents produced by counsel 
for the Goodman Agency relating to billings by the Goodman 
Agency to The American Conservative Trust. This exhibit 
includes four summary sheets dated December 22nd, 1986, a 
letter dated January 15th, 1987, from Colleen U. Vickers to 
Mr. Channell, together with documentation referred to in 
that January 15th letter. In addition, the exhibit includes 




719 



imp? ^qQ'sHI^?^ 

.7000 y^iiinu^s^ '-^'' 



NAME: HIR257oao i\' ■'..'...•'i,'' '.<^ •' ' ■ PAGE 83 

20U9 the invoices that are referred to in one of the documents 

2050 dated December 22nd, 1986, uhich is headed. Statement, and 

205 1 the invoice numbers reflected on that statement are the 

2052 invoices that appear in that exhibit. 

2053 (Exhibit No. 11 was marked for idenif ication . 1 

20514 2 If you would look through Exhibit 11, Mr. Goodman, 

2055 and just confirm that you recognize those documents as 

2056 documents of your organization? 

2057 A I sure do. 

2058 2 I ask the reporter to nark as Goodman Deposition 12 

2059 for identification a group of materials produced by the 

2060 Goodman Agency relating to billings to the National 

2061 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

2062 A I had better make one correction for the record. 

2063 Our former bookkeeper, her last married name, I knew her as 
206^ nelva McCormick, her 1-»M name at -chis point is B . Lill Melva 

2065 Croghan. Melva McCormick and Melva Croghan are one and the 

2066 sane person. 

2067 2 Goodnan Deposition Exhibit 12 includes a summary 

2068 statement directed to the National Endowment for the 

2069 Preservation of Liberty, dated Decenber 22nd, 1986, a 

2070 further statenent of the sane date listing specific 

207 1 invoices, covering four pages, a further statenent of the 

2072 sane date of three pages, listing itens of income, a letter 

2073 dated Decenber 23rd, 1986, from Melva Croghan to Mr. 



720 



NAME: 
2074 
207S 
2076 
2077 
2078 
2079 
2080 
2081 
2082 
2083 
208U 
2085 
2086 
2087 
2088 
2089 
2090 
209 1 
2092 
2093 
209U 
2095 
2096 
2097 
2098 






HIR2S7000 ^rir • « w o»«i a >' f-^ ■• » -«--..»:- pjQg gU 
Channell, a summary statement dated December 22nd, 1986, a 
similar statement dated February 12th, 1986, supporting 
documentation ior the checks and wire transfers to the 
Goodman Agency, and the Goodman Agency invoices listed in 
the February 12th, 1987 statement, together with four 
additional invoices numbered 4423, 4539, 4659, and 4744. 

[Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.] 

2 Mr. Goodman, I ask you to look through Exhibit 12 
and just confirm that you recognize those documents as 
documents produced by your organization. 

A Yes, I recognize that. 

2 Finally, in this particular area, I would ask the 
reporter to mark as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 13 for 
identification, a series of documents produced by counsel 
for the Goodman Agency relating to billings to Sentinel. In 
this exhibit there are three summary sheets dated December 
22nd, 1986, similar sheets dated February 12th, 1986, 
together with supporting documentation for the income from 
Sentinel and the Goodman Agency invoices referred to in one 
of the suaaaxy statements. 

[Exhibit No. 13 was marked for identification.] 

2 Hr . Goodman, if you would look at Exhibit 13, if 
you would look through that and just confirm that you 
recognize those documents as materials produced by your 
organization. 



^qfi«( 







721 



NAHE: H 
2099 
2 100 
2 10 1 
2102 



IR257000 Ur^-lsLi'?.i3cj;!< iLU ''*°^ »5 

A I do. 

e Off the record. 

[Whereupon, at 1:05 p.n.. a luncheon recess was called, 
to reconvene at 1 : US p . ra . 1 




722 



HAME: 

2103 
2 10<4 
2 10S 
2 106 
2107 
2108 
2109 
2110 
2 111 
2112 
2113 
2 1 lU 
2 115 
2116 
21 17 
21 18 
2119 
2120 
2121 
2122 
2123 
2124 
2125 
2126 
2127 




HIR257000 JBfi'iJ.nS T:k.'-\.^il i'i * i PAGE 86 

RPTS STEIN 
DCMK DANIELS 
AFTERNOON SESSION 
12:10 p .m. 1 

MR. FRYMAN: On tha record. 

THE WITNESS: During lunch, I was thinking about an 
answer to a question having to do with Oliver North and the 
question uas did he have any participation in the 
preparation or development of television spots for Mr. 
Channell and his associates. 

Just to make it clear, ue had one other contact 
with Colonel North having nothing to do with the Nicaragua 
resistance. The contact per Mr. Channell 's request was to 
get a briefing on the whole issue of terrorism in the 
country at that point in time. This was some time I believe 
in early 1986 and the idea was to get some intelligence froni 
Colonel North that might be used in the preparation of a 
film, an educational film on terrorism that Mr. Channell 
thought one or more of his benefactors might be interested 
in funding and supporting. 

So we got a briefing that day, a rather brief 
briefing in terms of specifics on terrorism. We ended up 
developing a film treatment for tha terrorism film which we 
thought was awfully good, but which ultimately was never 
used . 



l)NCL!iS®P 



723 



HIR2S7000 Ul^'i^i^'^fi-'- '>''^* -"^-^ 



HAnE' nxjv^j/wuu %^ t y *"oA <■■'' Ti *• -^ .• ■: * • — ' - p & r ~ fl 7 

2128 BV HR. FRYHAN: 

2129 2 On how raany occasions did you meat Colonel North? 

2130 A Ue actually mat Colonel ).orth, actually met hira on 

2131 only two occasions. The first occasion was the one I 

2132 alluded to. the other occasion was at a meeting in the Old 
2 133 Executive Office Building in a room called the Uar Treaty 

2 134 Room where Mr. Channell and between 30 to SO of his 

2135 supporters were meeting to get a briefing on the situation 

2136 in Nicaragua and Colonel North was one of several speakers 

2137 that day, speakers which included Pat Buchanan, former 

2138 Communications Director; and the Director, the head of the — I 

2139 think It was called the Office of Public Liaison, the 
21M0 person's name escapes me. 

21'4l 2 Hr . K-o- j-e-l-i-s--first name — L-i-n-a-s? 

2142 A Yes. 

2 143 They gave this assessment of the situation and 

2 144 after the meeting whan wa ware milling about. before we went 

2145 back to the Hay Adams for the rest of the night's 

2 146 festivities, Hr . Channell brought Colonel North over to ray 

2 147 father and I and said, ''I want you to meet Bob and Adam 

2 148 Goodman, who ara doing all our television ads,'' and ColoneJ. 

2 149 North said something to the effect of ''Keep up the good 

2 150 job, you aza doing good work,'* and that was the extent of 

2151 our conversation than. 

2152 Beyond that and the terrorism film briefing, I 



mM 






724 



2153 

215U 

2155 

2156 

2157 

2158 

2159 

2160 

2161 

2162 

2163 

216U 

2165 

2166 

2167 

2168 

2169 

2170 

2171 

2172 

2173 

2174 

2175 

2176 

2177 



mmm 



HIR257000 PAGE 88 

didn't have any other direct conversations with Colonel 
North. 

2 When you say directly, irom what are you 
distinguishing your direct conversation? 

A Really just the one conversation ue have already 
talked about uith Faun Hall, with his oifica, ue had 
communication, but that was the only time ue actually talked 
directly to the colonel. 

2 All right. 

Mr. Goodman, this morning ue marked as exhibits a 
number of statements and invoices produced by your agency. 
One of those exhibits uas Exhibit 1 1 relating to the 
American Conservative Trust, and I indicated in the 
description of the exhibit that the invoices were those 
described in one of the statements dated December 22, 1986. 

My notes also indicate that there are, in addition, 
two invoices in that Exhibit Nos . 5138 and 51614 which are 
not reflected in the statement. 
Now — 

A The reason, if I may, if you look at the invoice 
dates, the Invoice dates on those two invoices are January 
5, 1987 and February 10, 1987, which is after the 
preparation, it seems, of this document. 

8 Fine. 

Returning to Exhibit 8, which was the media 




^SSirlEO 



725 



NAME 
2178 
2179 
2 180 
2 181 
2182 
2183 
21814 
2185 
2186 
2187 
2 188 
2189 
2190 
2191 
2 192 
2193 
2194 
2195 
2196 
2197 
2198 
2199 
2200 
2201 
2202 




HIR257000 UllJi5'Lrc*JVj-« ='•""' PAGE 89 
chronology dated January 10, 1987, can you tell me if 
Exhibits 11, 12, and 13, which are the materials relating to 
the American Conservative Trust, NEPL and Sentinel, provide 
the source documents that you used in preparing Exhibit 8? 

Let's go off the record a minute. 

[Discussion off the record.] 

HR. FRYHAH: On the record. 

iHhereupon, the record was read by the reporter. I 

THE WITNESS: The document in question was prepared 
using not only the three other documents that Tom mentioned, 
but in addition station affidavits, which we have in our 
possession. >tation affidavits are simply final invoices 
from stations about which spots actually ran, the cost of 
those spots and confirmation for our accounting to mesh with 
our billing and invoices. 

HR. FRYHAH: Back on the record. 

BY HR. FRYHAH: 
S Hr. Goodman, Exhibits 11, 12, and 13 indicate that 
the total billings by your agency to the three Channell 
organizations ware approximately «1.3 million. 

Of that total, can you estimate the amount that 
related to programs involving Nicaragua? 

A Without doing a thorough review of the documents a 
good estimate would range from «800,000/>of the «1.3 million. 
2 Now you mentioned earlier that in developing the 



\imsmQ 



726 






HAHE: HIR257000 ti £ k ■ju! i.a il / -4.; • : ?A-.V> PAGE 90 

2203 iniormation in Exhibit 8, which was the January 10, 1987 

2201* i»«dia chronology, you would need to look at station 

2205 affidavits. 

2206 If you would look, for example, at Exhibit 13, 

2207 which relates to the billings to Sentinel, and Invoice U611 

2208 in that exhibit, which appears to relate to the purchase of 

2209 media time-- 

2210 A yes. 

22 11 e The particular spots are not identified on Invoice 

22 12 (««^11, and is that an example of where you would need to look 

2213 at station affidavits to prepare the information in Exhibit 

22 114 8 as well as your agency invoices? 
22 15 A To be absolutely sure of the rotation we would have 

2216 to do that, even if we had rotation* instructions in-house 

2217 governing this particular project* >4«e can't vouch whether 

22 18 iitre station followed that precisely or not <and we would have 

2219 to use a station affidavit to do that; that is correct. 

2220 2 Now, Exhibits 11, 12 and 13 all begin with a report 

2221 to one of Hr . Channell's organizations dated December 22, 

2222 1986. 

2223 Here these prepared in response to a request from 
222U Mr. Channell? 

2225 A Well, as I refresh my meuory. on Document 11, there 

2226 is a cover letter dated January 15th, from Colleen Vickers. 

2227 Treasurer, it says it is a ''Dear Spitz Channell letter'' 

if*. V ■ 



)00^ 



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HIR257000 







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9 1 



and says '"Enclosed is the documentation you requested 
regarding payments received from American Conservation trust 
accounts.'' so obviously in that case that was a request 
from Mr. Channel!. 

2 It is not clear to me that that January 15 letter 
relates to the prior pages. If you will look at the page 
right after the 15th letter, there seems to be a single page 
that was the enclosure with that letter, and is it your 
recollection that the December 22, 1986 materials were not 
sent to Kr . Channell some time in January or do you recall 
when they were sent? 

A I really don't recall. I remember the prepararioii 
of the documents . 

2 Do you know why they were prepared? 

A In responding to that question, it is probably 
relevant to look at Document 12, which in the letter that 
was enclosed there dated December 23, 1986, from then- 
Treasurer Melva Croghan, which indicates there is a letter 
to Mr. Channell and it says, ''Hr. Goodman asked me to write 
you regarding the audit we did and sent you, via Federal 
Express, yesterday. As you can see from the covering 
sheet--'* and so on and so forth. 

Th« gist of this letter, as you read it, is that we 
were saying thay were identifying the discrepancy, which was 
highlighted in the documents you are talking about, 11, 12, 



wmwm 



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„... UliCLASSintO „ 



HIR257000 It a V^9^l K';<> 4J S I ka-»^ PAGE 92 

and 13, totaling approximately «120,000 to «125,000, 
disczepancies caused by, as you can see in Document 
No. --Exhibit No. 9, involved disczepancies where ouz billing 
indicated a project was paid for by American Conservative 
Tzust and yet upon zeview and audit, ue discovezad the 
SI 25 , 000--let me go back. Ue discovezed that «125,000 in 
disczepancies - ^rUa-l stemmed fzom thzee diiiezent things. 

One we have alzeady talked about^ the Hozning of 
Peace Pzoject. the othez two things identified on heze 
undez No. 1, called first pzo ject--this had to do with the 

Mr. 



two spots, the fizst two spots w« pzoduced 
Channell's ozganizations and ue discovezed upon zeview that 
we had billed the Amezican Consezvative Tzust, ACT, $20,000, 
which you can see Invoice mOU, but had zeceived in partial 
payment at least, *20,000 from NEPL, and -^Ivat is a «20,000 
discrepancy there. 

Ue had approximately *9'4,000 in discrepancies on 
Morning of Peace and than under Item 3, that had to do with 
the final series of spots we pzoduced pzioz to the 1986 
ejections — I think this is dated impzopezly — which weze 
entitled ''Back Down*' and ''Election Day'' and we 
discovezad that theze was still a balance owed of slightly 
less than «10,000, which yielded a total disczepancy figuze 
of «123.627. 

It should be pointed out in ouz zeview of documents 






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HIR257000 |jiVjLnU>i^<5 J-:-%^ 



PAGE 93 

that all of out billings, all of our invoices, match the 
disclaimers on the spots that uere produced. 

Certainly and most imporcantly as in the case of 
'•Morning of Peace,'' which is why ue would have a 
discrepancy perhaps with Ht . Channell and his organization 
which we might be attesting to, ue thought the best way, 
maybe the only way and we got the seal of approval from our 



accountants in terms of it being proper procedure was to go 
through the actual billings jiMk*e sure the billings matched 
the disclaimers on the spots unA tha t was a way to come up 



with total billings for each of the three separate entities 
that were involved here. 

2 But it was Mr. Channell' s decision as to what the 
disclaimer on any spot should be? 

A That is correct. 

2 So you put the American Conservative Trust 
disclaimer on ''Morning of Peace'' because he told you to do 
that; is that your understanding? 

A That is not only our understanding, but our 
recollection. 

2 But in the manner in which you had been operating 
with Mr. Channell, if he had directed you to put the 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 
disclaimer on that spot, you would have followed his 
instructions? 



Ui 




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2 So. apart from questions about which entity of Hr . 
Channell's should have been billed, the bottom line, if you 
will, as of July 9, 1987, reflected in Exhibit 9, was that 
your agency was owed «689.7'4? 

A Yes, after procedural accounting for the 
discrepancies we have identified. In other words, Tom, the 
bottom line is that ue could identify the discrepancies, 
every discrepancy ^ there with tlie exception of «689.7<4. 
Or, let me restate that. 

Ue , after accounting for the discrepancies, it is 
our understanding and our assessment that we are still--that 
the balance still due is *689.7U. 

2 And when you use the word ''discrepancies,'' an I 
correct that by that word you mean amounts due from one 
entity reflected in your accounting records as well as 
overpayments from another entity reflected in your 
accounting records? 

A That is right. That is correct. 

2 So. after netting the different types of 
discrepancies, again the bottom line in July 1987 was that 
the group of Hr . Channell's organizations owed you under 
»700? 

A That is correct. 

2 Has your agency paid for the time required to 



Uliis:5iHty 



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HIR257000 y\^y3-r(.^"^*- '■-"• 



PAGE 95 
prepare Exhibits 11, 12 and 13? 

A No. 

2 Is it unusual for you to have to do this sort of 
investigation with regard to billings to a client? 

A Unprecedented, but appropriate. 

2 What do you mean by that? 

A Given, you know, the news stories about everything 
that was going on, it just seened to be prudent practice for 
us at that point to really do a thorough review of our 
operation as it related to Channell's organizations and make 
darn sure that we knew exactly what we were talking about in. 
terms of our participation. 

S Mr. Goodman, this morning we were talking about the 
different types of television tape, one-inch tape, tuo-inch 
tape, and three-quar ter-and-a-half -inch tapes. 

A Yes. 

2 Did you from time to tim«! provide copies of your 
advertisements to Hr . Channell or other individuals in his 
organization? 

A Yes, wa did. 

2 Hhich size tape did you provide? 

A Both three-quarter and half-inch tape, but I think 
more often than not it was half-inch tape. 

2 Were there any occasions when you provided one- or 
two-inch tapes? 






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That is somathing we do .a wt e i da tha studio ua use. 



HIR2S7000 1^5 -5i3< 'y*'.-!!?/ ' fJI'^O page 96 

A Not that I can recall and I wouldn't know the 
reason why we would provide that. 

2 What does the word "'dub'' mean in the industry? 

A Just another word for copy, copy of a spot or a 
number of spots. Dub is part of the dubbing process and to 
make copies of a spot for broadcast or for personal or 
private use from the master, we make what is called 
generally a dubbing master and from that dubbing master we 
make various copies for stations and others. 

2 Is that dona in-house at your agency or do you 
subcontract that? 

A 
Ua have two or three in tha area. We use their facilities. 

2 Is a copy of a tape normally made for each station 
that is running the tape? 

A That is correct. 

2 And those are destroyed after the tapes are run or 
discarded? 

A Ganatally that is station practice at some point. 
HR. fRYHAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 14 for identification — 
HR. SCOTT: Just a second. 

fox tha record, if you don't have those station 
affidavits, and I bellava ua did produce them, my memory is 
that they ware produced in a section, but if for soma reason 



w&mM 



733 



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HIR2S7000 



ONCLASSia 



3 



PAGE 97 



they are not included in the documents and are necessary for 
the investigation, we will be glad to provide them. 

Let us know and ue will be glad to cooperate. 
HR. FRYMAN: Thank you. 

I would ask the reporter to mark, as X indicated, 
as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 1 U for identification a 
memorandum dated '4-19-85, which appears to be signed Adam 
Goodman, ''To Dan, Spitz £ Crew"' and what appears to be an 
attachment referred to in the memorandum. 

Let me again state for the record that this 
document we have selected from a group of documents produced 
by counsel for another entity, Hr . Scott. I do not recall 
seeing this in the documents you have produced, though it is 
possible that it is in there. 

I just want to note for the record this particular 
copy came from another entity. 

(Exhibit No. 1 14 was marked for identification.! 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 
2 Mr. Goodman, if you would look at Exhibit 1 U and 
tell ma if you recognize that document? 

A I think I recall this, but not in great detail, 
fi Does that appear to be your signature at the 
bottom? 

A Oh, absolutely. It Is valid. 

fi If you would look at the pages after the first page 



'*'^' 'iSSlfiE! 




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2U03 
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HIR2S7000 



yNGUSSIRED 



PAGE 98 



and tell me if that appeals to be the attachment to the 
memorandum? 

A yes. 

Q Did this memorandum relate to one of your initial 
programs for Mr. Channell? 

A I believe it did. It is dated April 19, 1985, and 
the first series of spots we aired for Mr. Channell's 
organizations, I believe, went on the air in April of 1985. 
Let me just review this. 

Yes. It related to that, but in comparison with 
Deposition Exhibit No. 8, it is somewhat constructive--I see 
this matches up. 

I am sorry, where were we on the question? 

S Ky question was whether the summary sheet referred 
to in your cover memo, which is the third sheet in Exhibit 
14, relates to the initial round of advertisements for Mr. 
Channell and I believe you have been comparing that-- 

A With my immediate chronology on Exhibit 8. 

2 Which is the second page of Exhibit 8. 

A Yes. It seems to be one and the same thing. 

2 Then in your cover memo in Exhibit 14 you also 
refer to a summary of the research used to define the TV 
markets selected to reach the 21 targeted Congressmen, and 
there are additional pages as a part of Exhibit 14, which is 
that summary referred to in your memorandum; is that 



(iNcussife 



735 



NAHE : 
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2^^ i 

2U142 
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S $ s £ i N ^1 * 4 1 ? f a 3 H a 



HIR2S7000 i^*VS'^ ^!* \ \ ^ *° i' [-^ 'J 5 P*°^ '^ 

correct ? 

A That is correct, yes. 

Q Your phrase in the memorandum, ''reach the 2 1 
targeted Congressmen (per Rich Killer).'' 

What did you mean by the phrase ''targeted 
Congressmen' ' ? 

A I wish I Knew. I am trying to recall. Obviously 
this is a little over two years old. Just reading what I 
wrote here in the memo, I am WlJt 'about--my memo that says 
''research used to define the TV m^irkets selected to reach 
the 2 1 targeted Congressmen (per Rich Hiller),'' I assume I 
got those 2 1 names from Rich Miller. That seems to be what 
my memo says here, but I can't recall in this particular 
project, which was the very first one we did, exactly the 
situation surrounding that. 

2 Hell, is ''targeted Congressmen'' a phrase that you 
are familiar with? Is that a phrase that has meaning in 
your industry? 

A Wall, in relation to this it would suggest, it 
would mean to us that these are Congressmen who we thought 
or — when I say we, Mr. Channell and his associates thought 
would be persuadable or most affected by a campaign of 
public education and advocacy on behalf of the Nicaraguan 
resistance. But I an trying to search my memory banks to 
remember this particular situation. 



muzm 



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NAME: 
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ausu 

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HIR257000 



mmtm 



PAGE 100 



Obviously, Tom, this is very early on in our 
relationship. I looked at the supporting documents behind 
this memo, the last 8, 9, 10 pages, and I thought when I 
first looked at it. it might be the case that I had been 
given names oi people and. by the way, for the record, you 
can see they are Republicans as well as Democrats. And I 
went in and researched what TV markets--! should say this is 
my assumption, that I went in and researched which TV 
markets would be needed to cover chose particular 
Congressmen and Congresswomen . 

2 Well, if you would look at the last page of Exhibit 
14. rtr . Goodman, there is a note which says ''All 
Congressmen listed in CAPS above are among the 2 1 
Representatives targeted by Rich Killer. '' 

A I wish you would have told me that in the 
beginning. Then that seems to jibe with everything I said 
in the memo. I guess X got the names from Rich Killer. 

2 Is it your recollection that you had any role in 
the targeting of the Congressmen or is that solely Hr . 
Miller? 

A Solely Hr . Millet and/or Mr. Channell and his 
associates . 

e You never got information from Mr. Miller? 

A Absolutely neither I nor anyone in the agency were 
ever participants in the decision of selection, now referred 




737 



...000 pel ISM& 



PAT' 



10 1 



NAHE 

2478 to as ''targeted Congressmen,'' ior this or any other 

2479 project in the campaign or involved with Mr. Channell. 
2U80 I provided research along the way^rauch of it 

2'48l unsolicited for the basis of planning and budgeting and not 

2482 for the purpose of telling Mr. Channell. Mr. Miller and 

2>483 others who to target and how. 

2M8U 2 So the chronology, as I understand your answer with 

2485 respect to this particular phase of the campaign, is that 

21486 Hr . niller gave you a list of 21 targeted Representatives. 

2487 A Yes. 

2t88 2 On the basis of that list, you did some research 

2489 with respect to purchase media time, which led to the 

2U90 memorandum which is an attachment and is a part of Exhibit 

2U91 }f> 

2492 A That is right. 

2493 S Is that correct? 

2494 A That is correct. 

2495 S But your sole role was an investigation as to the 

2496 best and most effective media purchases that could be 

2497 arranged in connection with the Congressmen who had been 

2498 targeted by someone else? 

2499 A I am glad you brought that point up, too, because 

2500 as you will notice in the 22 markets profiled here 

2501 reflecting my research, in capital letters are listed the 

2502 names of Members of Congress who obviously were identified 




738 



NAHE' 
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UNCLASSiFi 



HIR257000 Ua «Ull.niJ953! KS 59 P&GE 102 
by Hr . Miller as one of the 21 targets here, but in addition 
to that, I also listed the other names of Henbers of 
Congress who would be affected by such advertising. 

Uhen you are looking at making strategic choices 
between doing something, say we had a number of targets m 
Hew York City, the most expensive media market in the 
country and might reach three or four persuadable 
Congressmen as opposed to using five other markets outside 
of New York City for the same price where you might reach 10 
to 15 people--that is where the research comes into play. 

I iisC the given targets and everybody in the 
congressional district was covered in some measure by 
television coming out of the designated television market. 

2 Now, the phrase or the letters G.R.P. appear 
frequently in the attachment to this memorandum. Uhat does 
G.R.P. stand for? 

A Great Reagan Presidency--no , it stands for Gross 
Rating Points . 

S What does that mean? 

A It is a standard naasurenent in the industry to 
measure audience sizes and theoretically when you achieve 
100 rating points with a particular spot, you theoretically 
reach eve ey a ne in a TV market once. 

In reality, you will reach 50 percent of the people 
3 times. You won't»reach 25 percent of the people ^once, but 



Mmm 



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HIR2S7000 



mmW3 



PAGE 103 



theoretically that means on 100 rating points, you reach 
everybody once. 

The reason ue use that is to give the clients a 
ure n planning 



standard meas 



\g campaigns. Then you get to the 



central issue in the ad industry, hou much is enough, on 
which there will probably be an - int ei ina l debate. 

2 So to achieve more rating points in any particular 
market, you just buy more time? 

A Exactly. 

MR. FRYHAK' I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 15 for identification a document produced 
by counsel for the Goodman Agency with a cover page reading 
''American Conservative Trust, Freedom Fighters TV, National 
Spot Program, 12/9/85.'' 

(Exhibit No. 15 was marked for identification. 1 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 Do you recognize Exhibit 15, Mr. Goodman? 

A Yes. I do. 

2 What is that? 

A It is the same kind of document as one that we have 
been talking about for the last hour or two. It was 
prepared ^Lm initially the American Conservative Trust. I 
think that eventually became the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty. 

Hay I take a moment to read this? 



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A This was again a budgeting^planning document that I 
prepared to give Mr. Channell and others interested some 
sense of what it was going to cost to do a national ad 
program on behalf of the freedom fighters and in this case 
on the last page of my memo, instructed to read the last 
paragraph to discern exactly what we were led to believe 
that was all about. 

It says, ''As discussed, this national spot program 
is a pioneer attempt to effectively influence public opinion 
as prelude to a critical congressional debate and vote. If 
successful, our approach will become the definitive 
blueprint for all interest groups whose goals and objectives 
are directly affected by Congress.'' 

There was no question in our minds that this 
project related directly to a planned and future 
congressional vote on contra aid. I think everything we did 
as prelude to that project and throughout the entire project 
leading up to the votes in^spring, and eventually I think it 
was as lata as June of 1986, were with that in mind. 

I differentiate that from what we were doing in the 
beginning, 198S, our first »i«^ with the project was again a 
public education approach, even though there was a vote 
obviously also in 1985^ and there was targeting that went on 
with that also. 




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HIR257000 'ynyLni.'i^il ILU 



PAGE 105 

We had tuo objectives. The first^ ue learned . about 
public education. The second objective was to influence 
public opinion as a way of exerting some type of influence 
over nembers of Congress who had the final say over whether 
the contras would continue to receive funding or not. 

Q In this paragraph, you have just referred to where 
you state ''this is a pioneer attempt.*' Did you believe 
you were breaking new ground in this program, that this was 
something that had never been done before? 

A It was something that I felt--we felt w* had never 
been done in this fashion, where pay television became the 
leading lobbyist for a public interest group or for a 
particular point of view. 

Htt uextt not just talking about a smattering of 
television, we are talking about a major investment in pay 
television as the driving force behind an effort to 
influence public and eventually congressional opinion on a 
particular matter before the Congress. 

I Bight hava been wrong in making that assumption. 
In my expexience, I can't recall a group that has made this 
kind of investment in television as the major weapon in 
their arsenal of influence. 

2 A form of this program was implemented in 1986; is 
that correct? 

A That is correct. 



ni^mim 



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HX.257000 Or^^ftSSsdEO 



>AGE 106 

e And an I correct that most of the television 
advertisements in 1986 in connection with this program were 
sponsored by the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty? 

A That is correct. 

2 Did you have any discussions or were you aware of 
any discussions with Mr. Channell or any other 
representatives of his organization as to why NEPL was the 
sponsor of the advertisements? 

A I don't recall any conversations or any knowledge 
or anything of that nature. 

2 During 1985 or 1986, were you aware that NEPL was a 
501 Cc)(3) organization? 

A No. I am still not sure what that is. 

2 Here you aware that contributors to NEPL were 
taking tax deductions for their contributions? 

A No. 

2 Going back to Exhibit 15, the second paragraph in 
your December 9, 1985 memorandum, you state that ''Our 
strategy was to target those Congressmen who, by virtue of 
their record on Nicaragua, seemingly have yet to make up 
their mind . ' * 

Has the Goodman Agency the entity doing the 
targeting in connection with this program? 

A Absolutely not. 




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mm '^M-w 



PAGE '07 



2 When you say '"our strategy was to target,'' to 
what are you reierring, by the phrase ''our strategy?'' And 
I uill also in connection with this question refer you to 
the next paragraph where you say that ''We' '--we is in 
quotes-- *' drafted our own listing of these wavering 
Congressmen . ' ' 

A Yes. It was probably an unfortunate choice of 
words to use ''our'' in both cases. Obviously in the second 
case, looking at key votes, that was ny way of 
distinguishing this as our effort and not anything connected 
with Kr . Channell or his intentions about the ultinate 
targeting . 

I should have just changed the word in the first 
situation from ''our'' to--maybe Mr. Channell's strategy 
would probably be more appropriate. 

2 Well, just to get the gist of ray question, if you 
look on the next page, the next paragraph says ''After we 
determined the ' honorees ' ' ' --who determined the ' • honorees ? ' ' 

A That was the agency. 

2 Has that you, Adam Goodman, and the agency? 

A Absolutely without consultation from fir . Channell 
or anybody else. I think I should point out that ray 
recollection was that this document that we are talking 
about here was requested by Hr . Channell and/or his 
associates so that they could, really for use for their 






744 



HAKE: 
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mm ?^^'!nFn 



>AGE 108 

puzposes, which you will make the assumption was fund- 
raising purposes with potential contributors to their 
organizations which is why maybe in some cases my wording is 
a little unclear about ''our'" versus ''we.'' 

But as I recall, that was drafted and reproduced in 
some numbers for use by Mr. Channell and his associates in 
explaining the program for a possible way of presenting this 
program to contributors and actually raising money. 

fi To go back and make sure that I understand your 
answers in the second paragraph when it talks about, ''Our 
strategy was to target Congressmen who, by virtue of their 
record on Nicaragua, seemingly have yet to make up their 
mind' '--in that paragraph, am I correct in understanding your 
answer that that was a strategy that had been set by Hr . 
Channell? 

A Yes. 

Q Then the implementation of that strategy as 
described in the second paragraph was an implementation that 
was done by the Goodman Agency pursuant to the techniques 
that are described in the second paragraph; is that correct? 

A I am sorry, the secohd paragraph — 

2 The third paragraph beginning ''we drafted our own 
listing. • ' 

A Right. This was again an educated guess on how 
this type of program would be implemented and I did it, I 



IlLASSiFiEO 



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HIR2S7UUU |y;-,;,-*(| .i-a:tOr>3ta ''l-C^ PAGE 109 

needed to do that first because per Channell's request he 
wanted to have a sense of the cost to do this program; and 
secondly, I wanted to have a sense of what it would cost and 
give my client, Mr. Channell, an idea of the scope of the 
program. In other words, how many markets, how many 
Congressmen would be affected, so on and so forth. 

It was ray way of being very thorough as a media 
planner and to provide Hr . Channell with something else at 
the same time that would document the program he was trying 
to do here. This was obviously a very expensive program. 

I think, as this would reveal, we are talking about 
upwards of «730,000 if it were fully implemented in all 49 
markets that I listed in this program at 350 gross rating 
points . 

RPTS STEIN 
DCHN DANIELS 

Q And that number you are reading from the page of 
this exhibit which has the Stamp No. 002569; is that 
correct? 

A That is tight. 

S HoH, in this exhibit, there is a section toward the 
back beginning with the Stamp No. 002598. 

A I should clarify that further, that was for the 
monthly budgets. I think the whole program that we are 
looking at had a price tag that went as high as S2, 100,000. 







746 



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HIR257000 BiSWB.t Si-'^J'^oT i'' si PAGE 110 

2 And that is reflected on page 002570 with the stamp 
nurabei ? 

A That is right. 

2 Turning to the page with the Stamp Mo. 002598, 
uhich reads ''Key Congressional Votes Nicaraguan 'Freedom 
Fighters,''' and the pages following that heading, was that 
section of the report prepared by your agency? 

A Yes. 

2 Did you prepare that? 

A I prepared that. That was part of the research I 
was alluding to earlier where I--In this case, X included as 
something that was new, beyond just profiling the votes 
various Congressmen had on the important issues affecting 
contra aid, you see the HcDade amendment, the Michel 
amendment . 

These are kinds of litmus tests, my perception of 
what the litmus test might be. 

2 And that section at the back is the source data 
that you used for applying the criteria set forth on pages 
002566 and 002567? 

A That is correct. 

HR. FRYHAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 16 for identification a letter dated 
December 12, 1985 from Adam Goodman to Fred Sacher; and a 
memorandum, apparently enclosed with that letter, dated 



Mimm 



747 



NAHE 
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HIR257000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 1 1 1 



December 12, 198S headed ' 'Freedom Fighters TV' National 
Spot Program. Three pages of the memorandum are included in 
this Exhibit. 

(Exhibit No. 16 uas marked for identification. J 

BY MR. FRYHAN: 
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 16 and ask you if 
you recognize that document? 
A I sure do. 

2 Am I correct that the enclosure uas the same as 
Exhibit 15 except that it uas dated December 12 and it uas 
directed to Fred Sacher instead of Spitz Channell and David 
Conrad? 

Yes. That is correct. 

Uas that done at Mr. Channell's request? 

The letter to Hr . Sacher? 

And sending him the enclosure in that revised 



A 

2 

A 

2 
format? 

A Yes. 

nayba a word of explanation. Fred Sacher uas 
desctibad to us as one of Mr. Channell's biggast 
contributors. He uas from California, San Ouan rar i tian »-r 
and he was apparently a very dedicated benefactor of Mr. 
Channell's and dedicated to the causa as he saw the cause of 

fxeedom in Central America. ^^, . ^ 

• ^^ ... /^ 

Mr. Sacher, ue understand. had^^|_l ot of money to 



wmm 



748 



NAHE: HIR2S7000 yj^yt.f-iOOB8 il-Si Pftr^ ,12 

2753 Mr. Channell at that point and Mr. Sacher, according to rir . 

27SU Channell, is the type of person uho wanted to have hands' on 

2755 involvement and be kept abreast of some of the things ue 

2756 uere doing with the television. 

2757 He had^\^een interest in that, so on a number of 

2758 occasions we would communicate directly with Mr. Sacher; 

2759 sometimes Bob L - t pm a n would talk to him, sometimes I would on 

2760 the telephone. He would make suggestions on scripts and 

2761 copy being prepared for Kr . Channell. 

2762 So that explains why we have a letter going to rtr . 

2763 Sacher in the first place. 

2764 2 Now, in the letter which is part of Exhibit 16, in 

2765 the first paragraph you refer to our first meeting in the 

2766 Indian War Treaty Room within the Old Executive Office 

2767 Building a few months ago. 

2768 What was that meeting, as you recall? 

2769 A That was the one we had talked about earlier where 

2770 Colonel Horth. Pat Buchanan, and a person whose name I can't 
277 1 remember uho headed up the Office of Public Liaison, were 

2772 present and spoke at various points. 

2773 After that, ue had a reception of sorts at the Hay 

2774 Adams Hotel. 

2775 fi Co you recall the approximate date of that? 

2776 A He uent to two functions of nr . Channell 's. I 

2777 think one was in December of 1985 and one uas in January of 




*SS1RED 



l^LH^'} 



749 



NAME: 
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zni<) 

2180 
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HIR2S7000 



DNGlKSieEO 



PAGE 113 



1986. That is our recollection. We tried to find the exact 
dates in our records and couldn't seem to locate them. 

2 This letter is dated December 12, 1985. In the 
first paragraph, you refer to a meeting a feu months ago 
which I take it — 

A Then I was mistaken. That uas the first meeting of 
Spitz Channell's contractors where again Pat Buchanan, 
Oliver North, and the head of the Office of Public Liaison 
spoke, because ue were only in the War Treaty Room once in 
our lives and that was the time. 

2 What had your meeting with Mr. Sacher, consisted of 
at that point? 

A I can't recall specifically, Tom, but I am sure ue 
met Fred Sacher at that particular meeting in the Indian War 
Treaty Room and the reception that followed. I can't 
imagine any other time we would have had the opportunity to 
meet with Fred. 

2 But you recall no specific discussion with Kr . 
Sacher at that meeting? 

A No, but it wouldn't surprise me if we talked to him 
perhaps over cocktails at the Hay Adams. 

2 In the second paragraph, you say ''Spitz Channell 
and his associates met with top officials in the White House 
about this project.'' 

To whom are you xefArring when you say ''top 



IJNCLASSIFSB 



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.--00 iiNCUSSiriEi 



PAGE 1 1 U 



officials in the White House?'' 

A Ue were told that Spitz Channell and his associates 
uere meeting with people in the White House. I can't recall 
specifically who it was. It very well could have been and 
probably certainly was Colonel North and I would--I can't 
recall specifically, but I think it also included top 
officials under the President; perhaps the President. 

fi Who told you this? 

A This is something we picked up just in the course. 
I think, of conversations with Spitz Channell and Dan Conrad 
and others. 

2 Was Pat fiuchanan one of the officials? 

A He may have been. I can't recall. 

2 Did you draft this letter? 

A Yes, I did. 

8 Did you review it with Mr. Channell before you sent 
it? 

A I can't recall. I know our practice was when he 
would request a letter be written, I would always send him a 
copy to naktt sure it was okay and I assume I did this in 
this case> too, or read him a copy over the phone. 

C But at this point, you do not recall a specific 
discussion where someone identified for you the top 
officials in the White House that you are referring to? 

A Oh, no, I don't. 



a 



mim 



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H1R2S7000 ysVjL>''-aOjs iuV 



PAGE 1 15 

2 Continuing on the first page of that letter aft^c 
the paragraph. ''Let me bring you up to date.'* 

There are three paragraphs beginning, ''First, as 
yru recall,'' and going down through the paragraph that 
ends, ''Freedom Fighters in late April or early Hay.'' 
A Yes. 

2 In these three paragraphs, you appear to state a 
philosophy behind this program or an approach of this 
program . 

Let me withdraw that question and I will rephrase 
it. 

In the first page of this letter, there are three 
paragraphs beginning, ''First, as you recall. Bob Goodman 
theorized--'' and continuing almost to the end of the page. 

In those paragraphs, are you summarizing hou you 
understood this pioneer attempt, to use the phrase in your 
other memorandum, would operate? 

A That is correct. See, in this whole thing, Tom, 
Spitz Channell looked--he seemed--he and his associates seemed 
to know very little about television. 

In fact, they were very uninformed about how to use 
it and how it interfaced with their objectives in their 
campaigns or projects so they <C£-Ly upon us as the television 
experts and they told us, you know, in broad outlines what 
they wanted to accomplish. 




752 



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286 1 
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2870 

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2877 



• . ; • — ^' • ■• ' r, • J. 9 










HIR257000 i,-«->;^, -i'li'-i^-.i iS ai PAGE 116 

Our role was two-fold. One, to »p«Ttk-t« that creativel/ 
and ultimately leading to the production of television 
spots; and second was to--frora a time perspective, Tom--give 
then some sense of what it would cost and how they would 
come together or whatever. 

But really in the mechanical point of view in terms 
of the time br- then any kind of strategic interface with Kr . 
Channell and all of his associates and with later 
Oi.ganizations were planning--so I could write a letter like 
this knowing basically what ue were trying to do here. 

Uhat we were trying to do on this project was very 
clear, we were trying ultimately to influence public opinion 
to exert pressure in influencing congressional opinion. 
That is all that this letter and I think others that were 
written by me, many requested by Kr . Channell. probably 
almost all, if not all, requested by Mr. Channell, were all 
about . 

When I used the word ''our'' as opposed to the 
program, it was our program, ue were the television arm of 
Kr . Channell 's program and inasmuch as we were led to 
believe or told that these memos or these pieces of research 
were used by Mr. Channell among other things for fund- 
raising with potential benefactors, Z guess I started to use 
the word ''our'* to imply that ue weren't just some fly-by- 
night production outfit that was given their project and had 




753 



NAME: 

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PAGE 117 
no sense of where ue were going uith it. 

But beyond us being television experts, ue uere not 
uhat we nornally are in caiiipaigns--to some degree, ue uere, 
but in most campaigns, ue are media consultants. 

Our job is multiiaceted , doing everything from 
producing spots mmI acting as psychoanalysts for the 



candidate . 

In this case, as pointed out in a memo I wrote that 
you have a copy of, I think in March or April 1986, when I 
was requested by Hr . Conrad to critique the program to date, 
the program being the Central American Freedom Fighters 
Project--! want to make the clear point and statement that ue 
had j B O < i n> f to do with the internal strategic planning of 
tnis . Anything ue did that ultimately related to strategy 
uas simply from the standpoint of budgeting and planning and 
not from any kind of coercive or consultative activity uith 
rtz . Channell or others who were obviously making the calls 
on all these buys. 

I don't want to get hung up on semantics on the 
memo . I want you to know that was our intent and uas the 
way u« approached the project. 

Q On Exhibit 16, the paragraph beginning at the end 
of the first page states that to be effective and remain in 
sync uith White House lobbying efforts, we need to start 
production on our first television spots in January.'" 



M^mm 



754 



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HIR25 






PAGE 1 18 

What did you mean by that? 
A It was no seciet to anybody the White House was 
pushing for this perhaps at the expense oi every other 
project on the Administration menu. 

The President is not only a die-hard supporter of 
the contras politically, but personally. Anyone seeing hire 
making speeches on this does not see a President reading 
copy from a prepared text. He sees somebody who firmly 
believes in the case. 

So I don't think it comes as a surprise to anyone, 
certainly inside Washington, that the President was lobbying 
hard for this. 

I thought everything ue were doing uould jibe 
nicely with what the President and other groups were doing 
to promote the cause. 

I know what your question is. The answer 
specifically is we had--there was no connection that we knew 
of between the White House lobbying effort and our 
television commercials. 

Wtt were aware that the White House was pushing like 
crazy for this and that in a small way we were helping the 
cause . 

S Did you have any specific White House contact in 
connection with this program? 

A None. Our contact in all of this was Spitz 




mmti 



755 



19 



KAtlE: HIR2S7000 ysVULtWS.H^ O-V r kf ' 1 

2928 Channell and his group, 

2929 2 When you refer to being in sync with the Uhite 

2930 House lobbying efforts, were you aware of any specific White 

2931 House lobbying schedule? 

2932 A Not m particular. It was clear--frora reading the 

2933 papers, it was clear they were pushing hard on this thing. 

2934 MR. FRYMAN: j ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 

2935 Deposition Exhibit 17 for identification a letter from Mr. 

2936 Goodman to Spitz Channell dated March 31, 1986. 

2937 [Exhibit No. 17 was narked for identification.] 

2938 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

2939 2 Mr. Goodman, would you look at Exhibit 17 and tell 
29U0 ne if you recognize that document? 

2941 A I do. 

2942 2 And that is a letter you sent to Mr. Channell? 
29U3 A It is. 

2944 2 Did he ask for this letter, or to phrase the 

2945 question more broadly, why did you send him this letter? 

2946 A This latter, Tom. was a summary to date of the 

2947 freedom iightsts' talavision program. It may have been 

2948 requested by Mr. Channell. I think it was. ^, 

2949 I was asked the same question by Hal Bruno, i It was 

2950 a good quastion. I can't imagine writing a letter like this 
295 1 unless it ware requested by Mr. Channell. 

2952 The letter summarizes where we were and where we 



ONCUsino 



756 



HAME: 
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m •Vi'i'iori 






HIR2S7000 8IJV,3 ■; ;; ^ -iWi'i SI PAGE 120 

might be go^g". 

2 Did you draft this letter? 

A I did. 

2 Did you have any understanding as to uhat use was 
to be made of this letter? 

A I can't recall, but I wouldn't be surprised if at 
some point Mr. Channell didn't take this and reproduce it 
for use in fund-raising. 

2 Do you know the reason for the timing of this 
letter, and by that, why you sent it in March? 

A Uhen I did? 

2 Yes. 

A I an just reviewing the chronology. I prepared the 
document. Exhibit 8--the program, the first part of the 
program, the first flight referred to in that document, uas 
flight 5, from March 3rd to Hay 1st. 

In other words, •y<Ht ran television off and on in 
selected markets throughout the course of that period and ue 
came back after the vote failed the first tine and ran more 
advertising on flight 6, which ran iron the 17th of June to 
the 27th ^sponsored by a different organization. Sentinel. 

This was written obviously in the middle of the 
aiorenentionad flight 5 and I can't remember specifically 
what it was about, but it is very clearly a summary of where 
we are to date and also an encousagement to Hr . Channell and 




757 



NAHE 
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3002 



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HIR257goQ ri|V(a:!d ?^aT^?i* Z* fli PAGE 121 
his supporters to keep up the good work, to stay behind this 
paid television effort. 

See/ in some sense. Torn, a uay of eKplaining this, 
Mr. Channell seemed to have a lot of different ways of 
skinning this cat called supporting the contras . He came 
upon television, I think, relatively late in the process and 
it was almost incumbent upon us as vendors and suppliers of 
TV to him to tell our program. 

It was like he had a laundry list of things he 
could do- one of which was television and we were able to 
sell contractors on the value of using television or Hr . 
Channell was able to, and obviously he would use our 
services and it would accrue to our benefit and this is part 
of that idea. 

Q Earlier we talked about Exhibit 15, which was a 
self -described tome on the upcoming program looking 
prospectively toward a program that was going to be 
implemented over the next few months. 

Is it correct to describe Exhibit 17 as a 
description of a program that has already occurred? 

A That has occurred-- 

2 Or is in the process of occurring — 

A Yes. 

2 And a substantial part of which has already been 
completed? 




758 



NAME: 
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HIR257000 Ul^is'i^HO'J^S \l.h p 



'AGE 122 
A That is, correct. 

2 Now, on the second page of Exhibit 17, you refer to 
•targeted markets, covering the home districts of nearly 
thirty Congressmen experts considered to be at the core of 
the key 'suing vote' on contra funding.'' 

Were you the expert uho targeted those 30 
Congressmen? 

A Ho. That was a very eloquent way of saying--where 
are we, on the last page? 

On the second page. 
A Page 2-- 

HR. SCOTT: Hake sure, if you want to retract your 
last response, read that. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. The experts being alluded to 
there were essentially Hr . Channell and his associates. 
BY HR. ERYHAN: 
2 To make sure my understanding of this is correct 
going back to Exhibit 15, which is the document dated 
December 9. which is looking prospectively ahead toward the 
program — 

A Yes. 

2 As I understand the criteria described in that 
December 9, 1995 memorandum, those were to be criteria which 
you applied in selecting honorees of your program? 

A Which I defined as the Robert Goodman Agency with 






\mM 



^■rUV 






759 



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HIR257000 ^^ « t v""" x'" — - - PAGE 123 

the purpose of providing a budgeting and planning tool for 
us and Hr . Channell. 

2 Does Exhibit 17 indicate that the actual targeting 
of the markets was not done by the Robert Goodman Agency? 
A That is correct. 
2 Why the change? 

A There was no change. As I have said, and to be 
very clear about this, I in this document back in December 
was selecting markets simply for the purposes of budgeting 
and planning, not because I had any influence over Mr. 
Channell's associates, over the actual targets to be 
selected, not because I had any interest in being a part of 
that process. 

I was not a part of that process. No one in the 
agency was a part of that process then or ever. 

2 I must apologize, Mr. Goodman. I am confused and 
let me try to clarify it for the record on this in case 
somebody else is confused who might be reading it. 

Going back to Exhibit IS, beginning with the third 
paragraph, you say that you drafted, or to actually quote 
the third paragraph, it states, '"He drafted our own listing 
of these wavering Congressmen by looking at three key votes 
on the rreedon Fighters this year.'' 

And then you go on to discuss decisive votes and 
qualifiers . 



UIIMSIFIEO 



760 



mrnmB 



HAME: HIR257000 W3 .» i,' ft,.> i-l^^ ,:»/ j^ | l IL 1/ PAGE 124 
30531 It was my understanding irom your prior ansuer that 

3054 you and the Robert Goodman Agency is the person and entity 

3055 that did the listing of the wavering Congressmen described 

3056 m that paragraph. 

3057 A Described with those as qualifiers, yes. 

3058 e And that was the process by which at the time of 

3059 the December 91, 1986 memorandum. Congressmen were to bo 

3060 targeted as described in the second paragraph in that 

306 1 memorandum? 

3062 A Be careful in the way you are wording this because 

3063 I think you are leading to a a»r tt t l.buti » >» that wasn't there. 
30614 This was a planning document, and if you look at the date 

3065 on this, this is December 9, 1985, almost a full three 

3066 months prior to ^iM' first hitting the air in Harch 1986, 

3067 three months in a relationship with the Channell 

3068 organizations where we never--we described this as a frenetic 

3069 relationship, but there were a lot of changes that would 

3070 happen in the course of our relationship over such a large 

307 1 period of time of three months. 

3072 I did this December 9, 1985 document only for our 

3073 own internal purposes, the purposes of the Robert Goodman 
307>4 Agency in providing for ourselves and Mr. Channell a 

3075 planning and budgeting document. 

3076 Uhen I use the words ''we drafted our own 

3077 listing,*' the qualifier is uere. This is my language based 



I 



mmwsi 



761 



naue 
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mm AC^iqcn 

,i,.s,coo uilbyyujj flu 



H1R257000 V J *<»^«« ''-^■*"' " ■ '•*"■' PAGE 125 

on an educated research analysis on the possible cost of 
putting on a program of this magnitude. 

It had nothing to do--I can't attest to what Mr. 
Channell and Mr. Miller and others finally did or did not do 
in terms of selections, but we had no direct knowledge or 
input into the final selection or even tentative selection, 
more importantly, of targets of this advertising. 

2 Well, at the moment, Mr. Goodman, focusing on the 
December 9, 1985 memorandum, which is Exhibit 15, on the 
second page of the memorandum, you state, ''After we 
determined the 'honotees' in each of these three categories, 
we researched and compiled a listing of the media markc-cs 
which cover their respective districts. '• 

A ''He,'' in this case, is the same as ''our'' on the 
f.i.rst page. It is the Robert Goodman Agency doing a media 
study for the purposes of planning and budgeting. 

e And it is the Robert Goodman Agency that was 
determining the honoreas? 

A That is correct. 

2 That was by applying the criteria set forth in the 
preceding paragraph? 

A Established by ma with no input from anybody, just 
an educated way of trying to put together a plan, a 
blueprint to give us a sense of where we axa going. 

2 When you say in that paragraph, ''wa determined the 




■^^muimi 



762 






NAHE-- HIR257000 | 1| ♦ 'J ^ iolTl^a* ^ '- •• PA--^ 126 

3103 'honorees , ' ' ' ua? that not the process oi targeting those 

3104 Congressmen who, by virtue oi their record on Nicaragua, 

3105 seemingly have yet to make up their mind on the extent of 

3106 their commitment to that part of the world that you 

3107 described in the second paragraph of that December 9 

3108 memorandum? 

3109 A That is correct. That is true, yes. 

3110 MR. SCOTT: Before we go any further with this, I 

3111 think everybody is getting confused. If we could go off the 

3112 record . 

3113 MR. FRYHAN: Fine. 
31 m Off the record . 

3115 [Discussion off the record. I 

3116 HR. FRYHAN: Back on the record. 

3117 BY MR. FRYHAN: 

3118 2 Hr . Goodman, in your Harch 31, 1986 letter to Hr . 

3119 Channell, which is Exhibit 17, on the second page where you 

3120 refer to ''these targeted markets, covering the home 

3121 districts of nearly thirty Congressmen,'' what is the 

3122 relationship between the targeted markets referred to in 

3123 your March 31 letter and the list of wavering Congressmen 
31214 which you describe in your December 9, 1985 memorandum? 

3125 A Ton, without reviewing the record, I have no idea 

3126 what the correlation is because I know that the ultimate 

3127 selection of targets, so to speak, was something that Hr . 



t 



Mimm 



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HAKE: 
3128 
3129 
3130 
3 131 
3132 
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3150 
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HIR2S7000 Vli^^"" ' " PAGE 127 

Channell and Mr. Miller and others did and unless I compared 
the documant. Exhibit 15, uith the actual time buy that was 
placed starting on Harch 3rd and running thr ough--actually 
running through also the Sentinel part of the campaign in 
June o£ 1986, I couldn't really respond to that question 
without that review. 

In other words, I can't recall offhand. I don't 
know offhand what correlations there are . 

2 Again to try to clarify this, in your Harch 31 
letter, you refer to "'targeted markets covering the home 
districts of nearly thirty Congressmen experts considered to 
be at the core of the key 'swing vote' on contra funding.'' 

Uho do you understand selected those targeted 
markets? 

A Well, I know that the marching orders for the 
selections came from Mr. Channell and others associated with 
him. The modus operandi with this and other projects when 
they were talking about situations where they were targets 
involved was I or someone in the agency, but normally I 
would receive a telephone call normally from Spitz Channell 
who would say, ''Okay, Adam, I want you to do these spots so 
they affect these Congressmen,'' and he would give me a list 
of Congressmen. 

Sometimes he called back and changed his mind, took 
certain Congressmen off and added others, sometimes he 




764 



NAME: 
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3155 
3156 
3157 
3158 
3159 
3160 
316 1 
3162 
3163 
316U 
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3166 



„... iimSSFM 



HIR257000 UliV*"'''"^* PAGE 128 

canceled the program outright, but Spitz Channell was the 
one and others who ue came to understand were associated 
with him who would call and give us what I call the marching 
orders on the actual selections oi the targets. 

2 Going further in your March 31 letter, tir . Goodman, 
on pages 2 and 3 you list seven commercials, ''Terrorist 
Influence,'' ''Refugees,'* ''Facts,'* ''Helicopters,'' 
''They Are Us , ' ' ''Tip's Shame," and ''Letter.'' And you 
indicate that these were seven commercials that were 
produced and designed to dramatize facts and information 
having a direct bearing on the whole issue. 

If you would look again at Exhibit 3, which is the 
list of completed commercials, ''Tip's Shame'' is not on 
that list, and my question is, why is it not? 



I 



UNCUS: 



:if; 



765 



HAKE : 
3167 
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3169 
3 170 
317 1 
3172 
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318(4 
3185 
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3191 



mmm\Ei 



HIR257000 lljji^g i ^i Whii-'il PAGE 129 

RPTS THOMAS 
DCnN PARKER 
[4:00 p.m.] 

BY MR. FRYMAM: 

2 Also ii you would look at Exhibit 8. and your 
listing oi spots used in Flight Five, which I believe is the 
flight that covers the period that you are describing in 
this letter, ''Tip's Shares' ' is not listed in that flight, 
as well. 

I will broaden my question to ask you why it is not 
included in Flight Five set forth in Exhibit 8, as well as 
in your listing that is Exhibit 3. 

A I wish I knew the answer to that. I don't know. I 
can speculate if that is appropriate. One possible reason 
is perhaps that we never ran the spot on television. I 
don't recall,, that was reflected in our station invoice or 
not. I remember there was a real debate whether to do a 
spot. It was a 10-second spot, where then Speaker of the 
House, Tip O'Heill had said something about it being a 
disaster, talking of something he was saying about the 
Nicaragua contras, he said something to the effect in part 
it would be a disaster and shame for this country to support 
Nicaragua resistance, and Mr. Channel thought that was 
marvelous in rallying the troops, and we produced a 10- 
second s4v»^ to do that. 



WEIMF 



766 



NAME 

3192 
3193 
3 194 
3195 
3196 
3197 
3198 
3199 
3200 

320 1 
3202 
3203 
3204 
3205 
3206 
3207 
3208 
3209 
3210 

321 1 
3212 
3213 
3214 
3215 
3216 



mm hmiim 

I don't recall having aired it. Why it wasn't on 
the list of final production--i t should have been. I think 
there were things on here that didn't run other than that. 
I know it was renamed, ''Flag''. That is why. The spot 
called flag under NEPL in this list that is the same thing 
as ''Tip's Shame.'' Just renamed, unfortunately. I didn't 
know it was renamed after the fact or whatever. 

I had the wrong name on this thing. 
8 Now. if you would look again at Exhibit 8, m the 
description of Flight Five, there is an indication that 
''Throw Honey'' was one of the advertisements in Flight 
Five, and you do not list ''Throw Money'' in your Harch 31 
letter. 

Do you know why that was omitted? 



A It might have been, I think it was »4M last spot ue 
produced. I will have to look back on my invoices on the 
production at that tima . Kaybe it was either inadvertent 
oversight or produced after this was written. 

MR. SCOTT: Page three. 

THE WITNESS: Tha memo was written in March 31. It 
might hava been produced after March 31. Let's look at the 
script, I guess. 

(Discussion held off the record. ] 

THE WITNESS: ''Throw Money ,' '^ produced April 7, 
1986. The spot was produced after this memo was written. 




767 



.XR257000 Ui^iuLh;J^^5H£U p,, 



NAME: H1K2S/UU0 rvsruj-wajso ■«.'•»•* a v-»~- PAGE 131 

3217 Also I uant to make clear for the record that m this memo 

3218 and other documents you produced, ue uere really trying to 

3219 m part sell the success of this program, and we creatively 

3220 interpreted everything, all the inputs ue were getting from 
322 1 Mr. Channel and others in presenting what this program was 

3222 all about, whether it be in a letter requested by Mr. 

3223 Channel to Mr. Channel, or a letter requested by Mr. Channel 

-^- ■-• .- »» 

322U to Fred Sa c k o r whoever it may be. 

3225 MR. FRYHAH: All right. I would ask the reporter 

3226 to mark as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 18 for identification 

3227 a document produced by counsel for the Goodman agency, 

3228 headed ''NEPL Freedom Fighters Campaign, a Summary Review,'* 

3229 and it is dated on the second page, April 30, 1986. 

3230 . [Goodman Deposition Number 18 was marked for 

3231 identification.] 

3232 BY MR. FRYHAH: 

3233 2 I show you Exhibit 18, Mr. Goodman, and ask if you 
323(4 recollect that document. 

3235 A I do. 

3236 2 Did you prepaza this document? 

3237 A I did. 

3238 2 Why was this document prepared? 

3239 A Dan Conzad called ma at some point prior to the 

3240 preparation, prior to this, and asked what they had done 
32U1 right and wrong, what we felt from our perspective they mean 




768 



PAGE 132 



NAME: HIR257000 J V * ^S. f ' ^, ■; ? i ' i - . -. > 

3242 Jtfi* , ACT, had do'ne well or not so well in the freedom 

3243 fighters campaign to date. Its preparation was April 30, 

3244 1986, so that uas still done prior to the ultimate vote in 

3245 1986 on contra aid in June of that year. 

3246 Dan said tell us hou you think «e are doing, good 

3247 or bad. Give us your critiques. So I sat down and I might 

3248 have consulted with other people in the agency. I can't 

3249 recall, and just in a about an hour and a half wrote th.-i.": 

3250 document, and I think it is important, I guess you are going 

325 1 to cover each and every point. 

3252 The most salient point to one of the points that 

3253 was being discussed earlier in this deposition is under the 

3254 heading, ''The Team, ' ' and I think that should go into the 

3255 record because what I was really saying in there was, look, 

3256 Mr. Channel, you have not only us but our understanding ^they 

3257 had other aidr advisers who may or may not be known-- Arthur 

3258 r iii g l fc al u if doing the polling, had a sense he had a PR firm 

3259 we knew about, ftdaJLaan Associates or something. 

3260 So wa knew he was bringing in a number--more than two--a< 

326 1 two ox aoztt ^ oijitsida advisors, people who had been around 

3262 for a while , '^flight have k«*4t some good judgments about 

3263 certain things, what I was really doing under this, they had 

3264 gone ■ I was conplalning in hindsight. I an glad it was 

3265 never followed up, complaining you have all of those 

3266 considered experienca<>in the field, sp ecially political, and 



iiU ill 





769 



NAnr : 

3267 

3268 

3269 

3270 

3271 

3272 

3273 

3274 

327S 

3276 

3277 

3278 

3279 

3280 

3281 

3282 

3283 

328U 

3285 

3286 

3287 

3288 

3289 

3290 

3291 



HIR2S7000 






PAGf 133 

you are not using it. why not once in a uhile sit down uith 
us and your other advisors and :ust do a round table 
discussion of hou your campaign is going and maybe get from 
that meeting for your purpose, some good ideas that you can 
carry forthwith the rest of this project and campaign and 
others to follow. 

2 In that paragraph that you are referring to, you 
stated that, ''Finally, uithin a number of political 
singles, the participation of a Bob Goodman or Bob Te-t«r 
will give NEPL an additional shot of credibility beyond the 
Olivar Northland Elliott Abraras.'' 
A Yes. 

Q Bob Goodman, your father, as head of the agency. 
Hho is Bob Teter? 

A Bob T«-fc«^E is the President and/or Chairman of the 
Beard of MOR, Market Opinion Research, a very highly 
respected national polling firm, primarily political. As I 
understand it, he is working for a number of people right 
now, statewide candidates. I think he is doing polling for 
the Prasidant, or has been for sometime, and I think he is 
Involved in one of the Presidential campaigns on the 
Republican side of the fence, as well. 

2 Was ha involved in tha Channel activity? 
A I don't recall. I might have used him as an 
example of tha kind of parson whose involvement might really 



mumm 



82-710 0-88-26 



770 



KAME: 
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HIR257000 t«lliJl„J 4'^,^^J'^ 3 1^-^ PAGE ,34 
help. AlsOjvSend' a signal to the Washington community that 
Mr. Channel, who is really basically a newcomer, only^iaAiv 
on the scene, so to speak, for a handful of years, give him 
some credibility in a political sense that he wouldn't have, 
I think, without that. 

8 Uhat did you mean in that sentence that I quoted by 
the phrase, ''beyond the Oliver Morth and Elliott Abraras?'' 

A Well. Oliver North had addressed that group of fund- 
raisers, potential benefactors of Mr. Channel's cause and 
was obviously very involved in the contra effort. And 
Elliott Abrams--ray recollection was--speaker at the second 
fund-raising event we attended in 1986, early 1986, so I 
knew that those two, of course by reading the papers, 
Elliott Abrams is the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter 
American or Central American Affairs, obviously. 

He was a key player in the public perception sense, 
but they covered their linkage to them, I think, covered one 
part of the puzzle. The other part was the more politxcal 
part of the puzzle. Why I think Hr . Channel could and he 
eventually, as you Know, brought in «t. Lyn/T ICUlJiiigui . I 
dv,n't know if I was aware of Mr. Mof si ngnr ' i participation 
at that point, or in hindsight after I heard of his 
involvement or not, but this was on the political side of 
the equation where I thought Hr . Channel was a little bit 
more naive, maybe, about the political sensibility out 



771 



NAME : 
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3320 
3321 
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3333 
333U 
3335 
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3339 
3340 
33U1 






HIR2S7000 ISi^tH^. i-ftrfTa<l» li-rJ' PAGE 135 
there, particularly as it relates to this issue. 

2 Is what you have described the only basis for your 
reference to Oliver North and Elliott Abrams in that 
sentence that I read? 

In other words, is there any other reason other 
than what you have stated why you referred to them there? 
A Mo. As you can see in the way I wrote this memo 
and other mamorandun and the bulk docunants . I do have a 
ilae* for the dramatic, but. in most cases, it is really 



'f? 



designed to push our case. 

Television was successful qm having an important 



part of the freedom fighters campaign. 

Q You sent this to Mr. Conrad. 

A Yes. 

2 Did you discuss this memo after you sent it with 
anyone in the Channel organization. 

A To tell you the truth. I don't think I did. In 
fact, I was a little bit upset there was no discussion. I 
thought it was a pretty good document. 

2 How, as of April 30. 1986. do the costs of. do the 
costs reflact in the market summary, which is attached to 
this summary review? 

A Yes. 

2 Reflect to the best of your knowledge the media 
time purchase in those markets as of that data? 



mmsM!, 



772 



w ft h S ■* ? .':^ '<». -, ' Co - >yi 9 1 



NAME: 

3342 
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3346 
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3351 
3352 
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3354 
3355 
3356 
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3361 
3362 
3363 
3364 
3365 
3366 



mm a?? y 



HIR257000 l?i?,iS,.8 .->.',.>,,;•. 5 ? •■ as PAGE 136 

MR. SCOTT: You mean relative to the freedom 
fighter campaign itself? 

MR. FRYHAN: Yes. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, it does. I just reviewed 
document 8 again under Flight Five, and all I had was close 
to 560,000, and the figure here is 550,000. I am sure that 
is a-- 

MR. FRYMAN: As I understand it, it was the 
procedure within the agency to use the phrase, ''freedom 
fighters . ' ' 

THE WITNESS: Yes, Sir. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Or freedom fighter campaign to cover a series of 
advertisements . 

A Yes. Mr. Channel has made a point of referring to 
them as freedom fighters as opposed to contras, which seems 
to be a point well taken. A little more oo m p a i ihlc r .' 
perception . 

2 Are the freedom fighter T.V. advertisements or the 
spots listed on page three of Exhibit 8 under the heading 
Flight Five? 

A Yes, sir, they are. 
fi Is that correct? 
A That is correct. 

MR. FRYMAN: off the record. 



wmMM 



773 



NAnE : 
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HIR257000 u I '^ 'i;i..reU V i ^ :' LU 



^ V' PAGE 137 
MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 19 for identification a document produced 
by counsel for the Goodman Agency, which has on the first 
page the phrase. ''Ue are Democrats who believe Nicaragua 
worth saving from Communism oppression.'* and headed on the 
second page. ''PRODEKCA. 

[Goodman Deposition Exhibit Number 18 was marked 
for identification. 1 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 

8 I show you Deposition Exhibit 19 for 
identification. I ask you if you recognize that document. 

A Yes. I do. 

2 What is that document? 

A Hell, w* met once. He. meaning Bob Goodman and 
myself, met in a bar in the botton. of the Hay Adams--seems 
like everything goes back to the Hay Adams. Ue . that day. 
met with Spitz Channel and someone else. It may have been 
Dan Conrad and f en K imb af and somebody else--Hr. Cook. Has 
that the person? Tom Cook or-- 

2 Ara you zeiexring to Stave Cook oi the Adelman 
Agency? 

A Yes, sir, and there may have been other people 
4>a8a>. I can't recall. And the discussion was nr . Channel 
had dis e usae d us -fee- a e ^ with Tnan KiWnirt . There was a group 
called PRODEHC^/, gtoupf of filemoctats who Spitz told us might 






774 



NAHE: HIR2S7000 I f ^''^ lij LH vf *■->' ^ ^ i i>^^* PAGE 138 

3392 be interested in supporting the administration points of 

3393 < lv a or something similar to that, vis-a-vis the freedom 
339^ fighters, and I don't recall many specifics ftround- the 

3395 conversation around the table-- Pen Kimbal ' and others 

3396 explaining uhat they are all about. 

3397 And ^iirst sheet you see in this exhibit. Torn, 

3398 Exhibit 19, uas something I believe ray father drafted either 

3399 prior to or following the meeting. Ue were told about the 
3U00 meeting in advance^that was either going to be used as a 
3U01 piece of copy that uas -either going to be used in a print 
3'402 ad, perhaps in the Washington Post and other things, or as 
31403 part of a television spot. I can't remember which, but 
314OM nothing came of the PRODEKCA involvement as far as we were 
3U05 concerned after that meeting. It all seemed to drop. 

3'406 The spot or printed ad or whatever it uas uas never 

SUO? done and never heard of or about 't4GB.s4^K9Efc**Mv again. 

3U08 2 So that uas the only contact you had with Hr . 

3M09 Kimbal. 

3(4 10 A That is true. 

sun . HR. FRYnAN: All right. I ask the reporter to mark 

3U12 as Goodman Exhibit 20, for identification, a document 

3>413 produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, which has at the 

3141 14 top of the first page the words, ''Themes.'' 

314I5 [Goodman Deposition Exhibit Number 20 uas marked 

3M16 for identification. ] 







775 



NAME : 
3m7 
3418 
3U 19 
3U20 
31421 
3U22 
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31424 
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HIR257000 W«:;-i?l.,H '.o .(^ .. -\ : i t^ JB PAGE 139 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 Mr. Goodman, I show you EKhibit 20 and I ask if you 
recognize that document. 

A No . 

2 Do you know the source of that document? 

A No, to tell you the truth it may have come from our 
files somewhere. I don't recall having read this or what it 
refers to. 

HR. FRYMAN: All right, I ask the reporter to mark 
as Goodman Deposition Exhibit 21 for identification, a 
document produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, which 
appears to be two pages of polling data. 

[Goodman Deposition Exhibit 21 was marked for 
identification. ] 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

2 Mr. Goodman. I show you Exhibit 2 1 and I ask you if 
you recognize that document. 

A Yes, I do. 

2 What is that? 

A As I recall. Spitz Channel either gave this to me, 
sent it to ma or some other way had it delivered to me or 
other people at the agency, and it was out of some poll he 
had dona. I forget whaxa it was done, why it was done. If 
in fact it ware aver acknowledged about any of those points . 
Obviously in reading through this, I recall it had something 







». -• a >. f. r) ^11 

» «: ;j r ^3 



776 



NAME- 
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3UU3 
3UUU 
3UUS 
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3447 
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3458 
3459 
3460 
3461 
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3463 
3464 
3465 
3466 



HIR257000 y^^^Sg^f'^^'JfjJid «i-!t.* PA'^': 140 
to do with showing the degree of support in Central America 
for certain things, including the contras. 

2 Do you know who prepared the poll? 

A No, I don't, to tell you the truth. 

2 Did you make any use o£ this? 

A No. 

A I think he just gave that to us for informational 
purposes . 

HR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 22 for identification, two sheets 
proc'uced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, the first sheet 
headed, ''Fidel's Warning,'' and a second sheet headed, 
• 'New York Times . ' ' 

[Goodman Deposition Exhibit 22 was marked for 
identification. ] 

BY MR. FRYHAN: 

2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 22 for 
identification, and ask you if you recognize either of those 
pages ? 

A Yes, I do, I am not sure. Can I read this for a 
second? 

2 Yes. 

A Yes, I do recognize it. I think this was a copy we 
got most probably from Hr . Channel, if not *f^ his 
associates, probably Hr . Channel. A lot of times he would 




777 



UNCUSSiFitiJ 



PAGE mi 



NAHE: HIR2S7000 

3467 prepare certain spots, and these uere two spots that he 

3468 proposed that ue do at some point along the way, and I don't 

3469 know if we ever did them in another form or not, certainly 
3U70 not in this form. 

S"^'! 2 Do you recognize the handwriting on the second 

3472 page. 

3473 A That is ray handwriting. 

3'*'7'* 2 What does the notation at the right that appears to 

3475 say, ''R.R. Speech at C/SPAH,'' and then an arrow to Oliver 

3476 North. What does that refer to? 

3477 A Tom, as I recall, Reagan had given some speech that 

3478 Mr. Channel thought ue might be able to use in one or more 

3479 television spots, and I said, ''Look, you have to be crazy 

3480 if you think you can get a Presidential speech. Maybe you 

3481 can get it from C/Span.'* 

3482 . He may have suggested to us ue contact Colonel 

3483 North's office to see if he could find a uay or kneu a way 

3484 of getting C/SPAN footage from C/SPAN or any other group 

3485 that might be willing to share such footage or sell it for a 

3486 price. But I don't recall beyond that reference, don't 

3487 recall any contact with his office or follou-up on this at 

3488 all. 

3489 Ht . Channel — this may clarify on this point and 

3490 Others. Mr. Channel was almost your personification of an 
349 1 idea man. He used to say he got more ideas^a half hour in 



WWSSIfff 



778 



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HIR257000 






PAGE 142 



the shower tha^n any other time during the day, and he uas 

constantly throwing,(>(l4f f erent ideas ior different projects, 

different spots, and whatever else at us, and/ijust added to 

what I have described as a frenetic atmosphere surrounding 

our relationship with Mr. Channel, an atmosphere that 

- J . ... 
yerneate-d his desire to make his organizations effective. 

MR. FRYMAM: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 

Deposition Exhibit 23 for Identification, three pages 

produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency, headed, 

' 'Hicaragua Facts . ' ' 

(Goodman Deposition Exhibit Number 23 was marked 

for identification. J 

BY HR. FRYMAN: 

fi Mr. Goodman, I show you Deposition Exhibit 23 and I 

ask you if you recognize those pages . 

A Vaguely. 

Q Do you know the source of these pages? 

A I can't recall. I know that not necessarily 

relatiVA to this particular document >uhen ue needed to get 

facts in preparation of tiM T.V. spots ue were always 

insistent our facts be irrefutable; that they be 

d:cumentabla and in most cases ue got information from 

publicly available documents produced by the State 

Department, the Defense Department on other places. 

X assume this looks like and appears to me to be a 









779 



HIR25 






PAGE 143 



NAME : 

3517 document that we probably received from Mr. Channel. 

3518 Whether ha prepared this or not, I can't recall. I can 

3519 hardly recall the documents. It gave us talking points or 

3520 fact points for future use in television spots. 

3521 HR. FRYHAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 

3522 Deposition Exhibit 24 for identification a document produced 

3523 by counsel for the Goodman Agency. 

3524 . [Goodman Deposition Exhibit 24 was marked for 

3525 identification.) 

3526 BY MR. FRYHAK: 

3527 fi Which has a list of names and a series of H's, and 

3528 some handwriting at the lower right-hand section of the 

3529 page, which appears to begin with the phrase, ''Flag on 

3530 Wall.'' 

3531 A Correct. 

3532 2 Do you recognize that document? 

3533 A I recognize my handwriting. 

3534 e Do you recall the conversation where you made those 

3535 notes If indeed you made them during a conversation, or to 

3536 rephrase the question, do you recall when you made those 

3537 notes? 

3538 A It looks very — I think I would be safe in almost 

3539 making the solid assumption without vivid recollection this 

3540 looks like a conversation I probably had with Hr . Channel oii 
asm the phone where he covered a number of different things. 






780 



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3557 
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3561 
3562 
3563 
3564 
3565 
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HIR257000 yi'^^g^n^^B^ iimi^ PAGE 144 

flag on wall looks like the first part uhich is 
flag on wall, should drop the bomb on Geneva, drop a bomb 
for peace. That is vintage, Hr . ■Ghaii m an" . Yes. I think it 
is some copy I guess he might have had for a spot. I have 
no idea whether we ever did anything with that or not. 

2 What does the — 

A Then there are some references to ''high frontier 
concerned scientists.'' Those were two other public 
interest groups that had. I believe--had sponsored television 
ads for SDI. pushing SDI and b e coain g competitors to Hr . 
Channel . 

It was a side issue which was again a heck-of-a->lot 
of press and attention and Hr . Channel was going to make 
sure he wouldn't f orget.find iRinge Hedia t^jB- reference there. 
Kr . Channel roust have told me Ringe Media was doing that 
theme or I learned that by calling the station in Washington 

::■■ r- _ ' - I. -•^ 

where they am doing the advertising. I can't recall 

specif ically,Snd farther down there was another group called 

Committee for a Strong and Peaceful America or something to 

that effect; that was on the other side of the ''Star Wars'' 

issue, and their spots either, >told or discovered were being 

• • ^ ' V i 
produced by Bob gquite5 . a very prominent and very skilled 

political media consultant, primarily, if not exclusively, 

for Democratic candidates. 

Reference to Rich Pollock Associates, I don't know. 







781 



NAME: HIR2S7000 



msim 



PAGE IMS 



3567 
3568 
3569 



That IS a name of an agency that does one or more of these 
campaigns, looks like notes during a conversation I most 
likely had with Mr. Channel. 




782 



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HIR2S7000 PAGE 1i*6 

RPTS STEIM 
DCHH DANIELS 
lU : 30 p.m. 1 

2 What do the numbers signiiy, 5-7-9? 
A I don't know. 

Q Ringe Media, was that the same agency that prepared 
Exhibit 1? 

A Yes. 

MR. FRYriAH: I ask the reporter to mark as Exhibit 
25 two pages produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency 
headed ''Targeted Districts.'' 

[Exhibit Ho. 25 was marked for identification. ] 
KR. FRYMAN: And as Exhibit 26 two pages produced 
by counsel for the Goodman Agency, the first page is headed 
''Republicans Mho Voted Against Reagan Plan to Aid Nicaragua 
Freedom Fighters . ' ' 

(Exhibit No. 26 was marked for identification.] 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
S Mr. Goodman, if you would look at Exhibits 26 and 
26, and tall ne if you recognize either of those exhibits? 
A I recognize both. 
2 Okay. 

Bsginning with 25. what was the source of Exhibit 
25? 

A To my best recollection, the source of this 




783 



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360 1 
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HIR257000 UllULHU'rJ? iLi/ PAC- 147 

document was Rich Miller. 

2 And what was the source ox Exhibit 26? 

A Either Mr. Channell or one of his associates or 
Rich Millar. 

2 Do you recall the approximate date that you 
received Exhibit 25? 

A I wish I did. I really don't. I believe it was 
19S6 at soma point, but I can't recall exactly when. 

2 It was in connection with the votes in 1986 and not 



1985? 
A 
2 

Miller? 
A 



I believe it was, yes. 

Did you have discussions of this list with Mr. 



Mo . 



I mean no substantive discussions. 



I forgot 



the process here, but I just remember receiving this and 
» t)ii s' at that point I think was a list of targets that I 
assumed he and Mr. Channell and others had selected. But if 
you compare this with the buy.uhich it went, «»tji my vague 
recollection was there are a lot of changes between this 
list and that list and the final buy that was actually made. 

2 Just taking the first line of Exhibit 25 or the 
line that begins with the name ''Hutto,*' H-u-t-t-o, what 
does the reference in the next column, d.1 — what does that 
refer to? 

A Having not prepared the document, I will make the 






784 



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HIR2S7000 r^;i a t -^ ■'-■• ?t.GZ 1 48 

assumption, I understand that to mean congressional district 
1 in Florida. 

e Further to the right there is the phrase ''Panama 
City TV/R/M, Pensacola TV/R/M.*' 

What do you understand those references refer to? 

A I would understand those references refer to the 
fact that in Congressman Hutto's district, the i««tre is 
covered by television coming from Panama City and Pensacola 
as well as radio and newspaper. 

Q Oo you have any recollection of a discussion with 
anyone of Exhibit 25? 

A I don't. 

2 Kou, Exhibit 25, you believe, came from Mr. 
Channell? 

A Or Hr. Miller. You know, I guess in our thinking 
we saw them as interchangeable. 

2 Has this received soma time in 1986? 

A I don't recall. 

2 Do you recall any discussion with anyone about 
Exhibit 26? 

A Ko, I don't. 

2 Do you know why Exhibit 26 was sent to you? 

A No. 

MR. fRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 27 for identification a letter from Mr. 



mm hW^\?, 



785 



■fi .*\Tr"3' 






KAHE: HIR2S7000 



PAGE 1M9 



3645 

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3650 

3651 

3652 

3653 

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3656 

3657 

3658 

3659 

3660 

366 1 

3662 

3663 

3664 

3665 

3666 

3667 

3668 

3669 



Goodman to Ellen Garwood dated October 31, 1985. 

(Exhibit No. 27 was marked for identification.! 
BY MR. FRYHAN: 
2 Mr. Goodman. I show you Deposition Exhibit 27. Do 
you recall sending that letter to Mrs. Garwood? 
A I do. 

2 Hhat was the reason you sent that to Mrs. Garwood? 
A Per Mr. Channell's request. 

2 Was such a letter to a potential contributor an 
unusual request by Mr. Channell? 

A for the same reason we sent that letter you have 
already entered into the exhibits to Fred Sacher. It was 
somewhat unusual, but once in a while Spitz would call and 
say, ''Would you mind sending the schedule of the TV spots 
to air in so-and-so market to a particular person.'" Ellen 
Garwood, as explained to us, was one of the major 
benefactors of Mr. Channell and his operations and we knew 
she lived in Austin, Texas. 

He made it a point to make sure we placed 
advertising time in Austin. Texas the market covering her 
area even in cases where there was no one down there that 
Mr. Channell wanted to affect. 

Ha wanted to show Mrs. Garwood that he was alive 
and well and ^dvwL ling was all over the map. 

That is my assumption. That is the reason I wrote 




mm 



786 



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PAGE 150 



HIR257000 
it the way I did-. 

2 So there were at least several occasions where nr . 
Channell asked you to write letters to assist hire m raising 
iunds for a media campaign? 

MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question. 
I don't think it has been established that this was done to 
raise funds per se . I think your question implies that this 
letter was written to raise funds. 

How Kr . Channell used it hasn't been established 
exactly and I don't see a direct request for money. 

MR. FRYHAM: Well, I will withdraw the question. 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 
2 Mr. Goodman, what did you understand was tha reason 
for this letter? 

A The reason for the letter, I understood it as t»«s 
the reason. at different times itf placing TV buys in Austin, 
Texas, was for Mr. Channell to show Mrs. Garwood that this 
campaign was alive and well. 

May I make the assumption, it seems to be the 
obvious assumption he wanted to keep Mrs. Garwood and other 
major contzibutors content with tlit progress or the success 
of the campaign. 

S Did you draft this letter or was this letter — 

A I drafted this letter. 

2 Now, the earlier letter that ue have discussed that 



m 



05 



ffe 



J 



787 



NAME: 
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mumm .. 



HIR257000 ■>-'" -wn.!! »v*\i?IJi 3 I. IU» PAGE 151 
you sent to Mr. Sacher-- 
A Yes. 

2 It is your understanding, is it not, that that 
letter was part of an effort to seek assistance from Mr. 
Sacher in the form of a contribution to the proposed media 
campaign? 

MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question 
as well. It hasn't been established in the testimony that 
that was the purpose of that letter, to solicit funds. 

Do you want to ask hire if that was the purpose of 
that letter perhaps that would be a good way to go, but I 
don't believe it has been established in previous testimony. 

MR. FRYHAH: I withdraw the question and I will 
rephrase it. 

BY MR. FRYMAH: 
S Mr. Goodman, referring again to Exhibit 16, which 
is your December 12, 1985 letter to Mr. Fred Sacher, in the 
second paragraph of that letter, you state, ''Ue are now 
prepared to put our program into action and yet, without 
your help, we may never reach first base.'* 

Now, did you understand by sending that letter you 
were assisting Mr. Channell in seeking contributions from 
Mr. Sacher for a media program? 

MR. SCOTT: I object to the question, but you can 
go ahead and answer it. 






tf^inc. 



lUSSlHt' 



788 



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PAGE 152 



THE HITHESS: All of our work ior Spitz Channell 
dapanded 0tt obviously funding as any part of this program 
did. Ue were never an active part of the fund-raising 
effort. 

At times, I was directed to write letters that 
extolled the virtues of the program and if appropriate, our 
perception of the success of the program to date.'' And if 
the question is, was the Goodman Agency involved in raising 
money for Mr. Channell, I must humhly say, and emphatically, 
no . 

If the question is did anything we do contribute at 
least tangentially to Kr . Channell in terms of his fund- 
raising or fund-raising success, I think that is a fair word 
to use, then X have to say yes. 

BY KR. FRYHAK: 
S Uell, in connection with whether the Goodman Agency 
was involved in assisting Mr. Channell in raising funds, Mr. 
Goodman, if you would turn to the second page of Exhibit 16, 
in the last paragraph, where you state, ''If you have any 
questions or suggestions, please don't hesitate to call Bob 
Goodman ox myself. Otherwise, we suggest that you contact 
Spitz Channell directly to ascertain the precise timing and 
transfer of funding needed to launch this critical 'next 
step. ■ ' • 

Mow, in writing that paragraph, was it urgent to 







8 



789 



KRHE ■ 
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HIR2S7000 Hi^n^ KA^^^^ M g] 



PAGE 153 
assist Mr. Channell in fund-raising? 

MR. SCOTT: I object to the form of the question. 

THE UITMESS: When ue produced, for instance, the 
story boards that have already been offered into evidence 
and when we produced, at times produced extra half-inch 
copies of a certain spot or spots that had been produced and 
It uas ordered more in bulk, relative bulK--obviously it was 
our impression that ftr . Channell was going to use these 
materials and other things for the purpose of, Ko . 1, 
Keeping his benefactors appraised of the effort; and 2, I 
think it is obvious to continue encouraging them to remain 
loyal to Mr. Channell and his cause vis-a-vis contributions. 

I don't think that is anything that Mr. Channell 
tried to hide, certainly it is nothing we would try to hide. 

We as the suppliers of television were very interested in 
trying to see if this program would be successful and be 
given a chance to be successful and upon Mr. Channell's 
direction at times we were directed to write letters that 
talked about the program in a way not to disparage the 
prospects for success of the television aspect of his 
campaign. But to extol those prospects and to encourage 
further support. 

I want to make cleat if the question is did I or 
anybody in the agency work in concert with Hr . Channell or 
any of his associates to directly raise money vis-a-vis 



mmmEB 



790 



f'O'rsri 



KA„E: HX.3S7000 UmAli^lMill'll ''''■ '" 

3770 asking contributors for money, falling about speciiic 

377 1 donations or anything having to do with the technical aspect 

3772 of fund-raising I am saying emphatically no. 

3773 . BY HR. FRYHAN: 

3774 2 Hhen you say work in concert with Hr . Channell. you 

3775 sent this letter to fir. Sacher, which is Exhibit 16, with 

3776 Kr . Channell's knowledge that you were sending it, did you 

3777 not? 

3778 A Yes. 

3779 2 And when you write in the second paragraph of that 

3780 letter, Kr . Goodman, that you are prepared to put the 

3781 program into action and yet without Mr. Sacher's help, you 

3782 may never reach first base-- 

3783 A Yes. 

3784 2 Did you not consider that a request for funds? 

3785 MR. SCOTT: i object to the form of that question. 

3786 HR. FRYHAN: You may answer. 

3787 THE HITHESS : I see it as more of a generic 

3788 lina--without your help and others like you, our television 

3789 and other pzograns would never succeed. But we were never 

3790 asked to contact contributors for the purpose of raising 
379 1 money. We were never asked to request funding assistance 

3792 directly from people that Mr. Channell directed us to 

3793 contact. 

37914 We were not involved--our intention with all this 



Mmsim 



J 



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HIR257000 






PAGE 155 



uas not to be a fund-taiser for the Channell organization. 
Our object uas, again, to promote the virtues of our program 
and our feelings of its chances for success. 

By the same token, the letter to Mrs. Ellen 
Garwood, which you have labeled Exhibit No. 27, uas the 
result of a telephone call I got from Mr. Channell saying, 
''Look, Mrs. Garwood would love to know her efforts have 
been worthwhile. Ue are doing advertising in Austin. Send 
her a schedule so she can see some of these spots on 
television for herself.'' 

MR. FRYMAN: x asK the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 28 for identification a page dated April 
17, 1986, produced by counsel for the Goodman Agency. 

(Exhibit Ho. 28 uas marked for identification. ] 
BY MR. FRYMAK: 

2 Mr. Goodman, I show you Exhibit 28 and I ask you if 
you recognize that document? 

A I don't recall reading this, but I vaguely recall 
what is being alluded to. 

2 What is that? 

A Just read the nemo. ''Spitz called today, wants 
the audio redone on 'Helicopter' and 'Terrorist Influence' 
to end with: 'Sponsored by the National Endowment for l.he 
Preservation of Liberty.''' 

2 Was that a change iron the way it had been? 



immm 



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PAGE 156 



HIR257000 

A That is, ray assumption? 

2 Do you recall hou it had been? 

A I don' t . 

2 Do you also recall the incident or the matter 
apparently referred to in the last part of that memorandum 
where it states. ''Under no circumstances do they want 'They 
Are Us' to run?'' 

A Right. They didn't like that spot. 

2 So they were just ordering you to stop it? 

A Yes . 

2 Do you know why they didn't like it? 

A Not specifically. 

2 Did they ever indicate to you why they didn't like 
it? 

A They may have > but I don't recall. It wasn't one 
of our favorite spots either. 

MR. FRYKAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Goodman 
Deposition Exhibit 29 for identification a letter dated 
Harch 19, 1987 from Allen L. Schwait to J. Curtis Hurge, H-u- 
r-g-e; and a second lettax which is headed ''Second Draft,'* 
and it is a typewritten letter, unsigned, from Robert 
Goodman to Carl Russell Channell dated March 11, 1987. 

(Exhibit No. 29 was marked for identification.] 
BY HR. FRYMAH: 

2 tlr . Goodman. X show you Deposition Exhibit 29 for 







793 



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3850 

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HIR2S7000 C''I^''jL,nO»*'i* < 3- 1^ PAGE 157 
identification and I ask you if you recognize those 
documents ? 

A I do. 

C Am I correct that the second draft, which is the 
last two pages of this exhibit, is not the letter referred 
to in Mr. Schwait's letter dated March 19 where he says, 
•'Mr. Channel! or one of his associates drafted a letter 
dated March 11, 1987 for Mr. Robert Goodman's signature,'* 
and that you feel it is inaccurate that Mr. Schwait feels it 
is inaccurate? 

A As I recall, this is a copy of a latter alluded to 
in Allen's cover letter that we received from Mr. Channell 
and his organization or organizations requesting that ue 
sign it. 

2 So it is your understanding this was what Mr. 
Channell sent you? 

A Yes. 

e And this is the letter that Mr. Schwait's letter 
describes as inaccurate? 

A Yes. 

fi What is inaccurate about that letter? 

A I wish you had given me some advance warning on 
that because we made a list of responses to those letters 
should we ever need to consult that. 

HR. FRYMAH: Let's go off the record. 



wuss.'Fe 



794 






NAME: HIR257000 -a.' l » «*y i- 9 l ^«^ ».i» r < ^ ru- »V PAGE 158 
3870 [Discussion off the record.) 

387 1 BY FRYMAN: Is there a pending question? 

3872 [Whereupon, the record was read by the reporter. 1 

3873 MR. SCHHAIT: To the extent you recall. 

3874 THE WITNESS: There are all sorts of things in this 

3875 letter that we objected to and I want to note for the record 

3876 there was some pressure applied to us to sign this thing. 

3877 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

3878 Q Pressure by whom? 

3879 A By Mr . Channell and his associates. 

3880 2 How did he apply pressure? 

388 1 A He just suggested that we should sign this because 

3882 he was feeling--it was our impression he was feeling a lot of 

3883 pressure from the press and others and he gave us the 
38814 feeling he might make life miserable for us if we refused. 

3885 2 Did he indicate how he might make life miserable? 

3886 * , I. didn't talk to Mr. Channell about this. Bob 

3887 Lipman - did. We reviewed the letter and there were several 

3888 things he objected to. 

3889 In the second paragraph at the end, it started 

3890 talking about how certain ads were funded, placement of the 

389 1 first flight of television ads in 1985 depicting the plight 

3892 of hicazaguan refugees were paid for by the American 

3893 Conservative Trust-State Election Fund. Ue didn't know the 
38914 difference between various American Conservative Trust 







795 



NAME : 
389S 
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3899 
3900 

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391 1 
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HIR257000 ^« > W«fi.< i^-^*^ » K -•' "^ *» PAGE 159 
accounts until 1987 when ue did a thorough review and 
started to find out where these checks had come from in term 
of the hftadings. 

There are a lot of a priori assumptions that they 
were trying to have us make here about certain knowledge of 
their foundations which we simply did not have and that is 
one example. Then they had something on the last paragraph, 
all the ads run in specific congressional districts, 
designed to get voters to call their Congressmen on 
Nicaraguan freedom fightttr aid, were paid for by Sentinel, a 
S01(c)(i*) lobbying organization. 

Ue had and did not have then and don't have now any 
specific knowledge of exactly what the charters are on each 
of these organizations . 

Mr. Smith came up in January of 1987 and tried to 
give me a thumb-nail sketch. He had never seen the 
documents tSi chaffers. 

I could take a half an hour with this, and pick it 
apart, but the bottom line is they were asking us to make 
statements which wax« not accurate in reflecting j^vk extent 
of our knowledge of the organizations and the program as ue 
handled it over the course of our relationship. 




796 



NAME' 

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HIR2S7000 

RPTS THOMAS 
DCHN KOEHLER 



ihsjiLFAjiiinLsJ 



PAGE 160 



BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 Is the next paragraph correct, that reads, quote, 
our firm did not participated in the Maryland campaign 
activities? 

A That is correct. 

2 Regarding the senatorial race between Linda Chavez 
and Barbara Mikulski? 

A That is correct. 

2 rir . Schwait's letter indicates that his office will 
be contacting Mr. Merge to offer his assistance in drafting 
a complete an accurate statement of the facts. 

A Yes. 

2 Do you know if there was ever such a statement 
prepared and delivered to Hr . Merge? 

A To my knowledge--to my knowledge we did prepare a 
statement delivered to Mr. Merge. Oux intention by the way, 
Tom, as long as we didn't want to make life more difficult 
for Hr. Channell than it already was, we still have a lot of 
respect for his intelligence--we were trying to help in this 
sense — trying to find a way if it was possible, to have 
something that both organizations, both Ht . Channell and the 
Goodman Agency, could verify as accurate. 






:iFe 



I 



797 



NAME 
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3946 
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3965 
3966 



"r-iCLISSIFlEO 



T^f 



HIR?57uog K ■" 5 ',1 1 J :•; •■1,1. ^18 St Bl PAGE 161 

would be helpful for both--but I ara not auare of any 
progress that had been made on this front. 

2 Mow, Hr . Goodman, you have described today your 
activities on behalf of Mr. Channell's organization in 
connection with the Kicaraguan issue advocacy campaign. And 
you have described advertisements you prepared and placed in 
connection with the senatorial campaign involving Tim -Mi lli . 

A Yes. 

e Vou further indicated that your agency had no role 
in the Chavez/MiKulski campaign. 

A Yes. 

Q Other than the Wirth campaign, did your agency 
participate in any political campaigns on behalf of any of 
Mr. Channell's organizations? 

A Ho . 

2 Now, in Exhibit 3, there is a reference to various 
ads sponsored by Sentinel entitled. ''Does He Know?''. 
'Tack Check", and "Time Check". 

A Yes. 

2 And then there in Exhibit 7, there is a story board 
foz the advertisement. ''Does He Know'', that relates to 
Congressman nichael Barnes. 

A Yes. 

2 Now, is it your understanding that that 
advertisement had any relationship to the senatorial primary 



WfiSSffl 



798 



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3968 
3969 
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3971 
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IINCL«S!F!EB 



HIR257000 IllVlai :«USaiil SR II PAGE 162 
campaign in which Congiessroan Michael Barnes uas a 
candidate? 

A Mo. 

e What is youz understanding of the purpose of that 
advertisement, ''Does He Know?''? 

A Congressman Barnes or with everybody? 

S Let's focus on Congressman Barnes for the moment. 
''Does He Know'* ads relating to Congressman Barnes. 

A ''Does He Know*' series relating to all Congressmen 
that you see listed on Exhibit 3 uas designed to. as we 
understand it. sway Congressional opinion, sway votes, 
influence votes, if possible, by influencing public opinion 
on a vote that uas coning up in June. 

The actual selection of targets was Mr. Channell's. 
Why Congressman Barnes, I don't know. You will have to ask 
Mr. Channell that. 

Q Now. on the Exhibit 3 there is a list of a number 
of names in connection with the ''Does He Know'' ad. Am I 
correct, am I not. that the advertisement uas run on a 
television station with regard to Congressman Barnes? 

A Yes, in the Washington market. 

fi Did advertisements run on television stations 
involving Hz. Hhittley, the next name on Exhibit 3, after 
the "Does Ha Know?" ad? 

A Yes. 



I 
I 



UNCiiWEO 



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PAGE 163 



3992 
3993 

3994 

3995 

3996 

3997 

3998 

3999 

14000 

UOO 1 

14002 

U003 

140014 

1400S 

14006 

4007 

U008 

4009 

U010 

140 1 1 

140 12 

140 13 

14014 

4015 

4016 



2 Mr . Jones ? 

MR. SCOTT: For the record, I think you should 
point out he is referring to Exhibit 8. His answer reflects 
the information contained on Exhibit 8. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you, Jira. 

Which I think is complete, Tom, and accurate. I don't 
see Jones listed, so he may have not been. 
BY MR. FYHAN: 

e What about Hr . Whitten? 

A Again, I don't see that on the list. 

2 Mr. Boner? 

A Yes . 

2 Mr. Gordon? 

A Yes. 

2 Mr. Cooper? 

A Yes. 

2 Mr. Mazzoli? 

A Yes. 

2 Mr . De La Garza? 

A Yes . 

2 Mr. Pickle? 

A Yes. 

2 Mz. He£n«z? 

A Yes. 

2 And Hr . Bustanante? 






800 



NAHE : 
40 17 
4018 
40 19 
4020 
4021 
4022 
4023 
4024 
4025 
4026 
4027 
4028 
4029 
4030 
4031 
4032 
4033 
4034 
4035 
4036 
4037 
4038 
4039 
4040 
4041 






A Yes . 

2 And the selection of these individuals in 
connection uith this advertisement was done by Mr. Channell 
so far as you know? 

A Yes. 

2 Did you make any suggestions with zespect to-- 

A No. 

2 The markets and the individuals that would be the 
subject oi this ad campaign? 

A No. 

2 Did you have any discussion with Mr. Channell ot 
anyone in his organization as to how the Barnes ad would fit 
into the overall strategy that they had with respect to 
Conaressman Barnes? 



w 



i 



A X don't recall any discussion about that. 
2 I have no further questions. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 
2 I just have a few questions. 

A I have a few things I want to put on the record at 
the end, if that is appropriate. 

MK. SCOTT: Can we take a five-minute break? 

MR. OLIVER: Whatever you want to do. 

MR. SCOTT: Let's take a break. 
( Recess . ] 

BY HR. OLIVER: 



I 



111! s<:';i 

\0 a 4.' .--■» ■■'■I- •"-' *« 



STi"?-! 



f-ff 



,_ «.^ .« J - -. 



801 



NAHE: 
U0U2 

40143 
UOUU 
4045 
140146 
4047 
4048 
4049 
40S0 
405 1 
40S2 
4053 
4054 
4055 
4056 
4057 
40S8 
4059 
4060 
4061 
4062 
4063 
4064 
(4065 
4066 



HIR2S7000 




5 it id 



PAGE 165 



2 Can we go back on the record? 

Mr. Goodman, in Exhibit No. ~, uhich ue discussed 
earlier, the fourth paragraph on the story board, there is a 
picture of a helicopter. Did I understand that earlier that 
IS the Hinds helicopter from the photographs that uere 
provided to you by Faun Hall? 

A I believe that uas exactly the footage ue received 
from Fawn Hall. If not, it uas awfully close to it. 

2 Just above that photo is a slide of uhat appears to 
be an aerial photograph. Where did you obtain that slide? 

A Good question. It wasn't a slide, it uas a 
picture, and publication of it caroe from either the State 
Department or the Defense Depattraent--supposedly available to 
the general public, printed by the Government Printing 
Office. And at various points along the uay where ue needed 
some pictures, something visual, ue were often told by Mr. 
Channell to call, in most cases, Mr. Miller, Richard Miller, 
who would have access, or know where to get access to these 
kinds of documents. 

2 Did he provide you with this photograph? 

A This publication from which the photograph came? 

2 Yes. 

A Hr. Miller — 

2 Did it come iron a publication? 

A It came from a publication. In fact, I sent copies 










?2-710 a88-27 



802 



ISi 



NAME: 
U067 
U068 
U069 
U070 
U07 1 
U072 
4073 
1407U 
U07S 
4076 
U077 
4078 
4079 
4080 
4081 
4082 
4083 
4084 
4085 
4086 
4087 
4088 
4089 
4090 
4091 




HIR2S7000 mills f^Uyli iiaP-^ PAGE 166 
of this publication, diiferent copies, uhen I tried to 
support the factual evidence being presented, the very spots 
to the station--actually the station, it uas either--in fact, 
it uas part of the material we supplied to the committee by 
either a State Department or Defense Department publication 
and, in that publication, they had a lot of different-- 

S It uas from a publication provided to you by Mr. 
Miller? 

A Either Mr. Miller or Mr. Channell, but in most 
cases, it uas from Mr. Miller. 

2 That is your recollection? 

A Yes. 

2 At any time did you ever receive as payment for any 
of your services traveler's checks? 

A No . 

2 Did you understand at any time during your working 
relationship uith Richard Miller or IBC, if they uere 
connected in any way to the Department of State? 

A No. 

2 Was it ever indicated to you they uere under 
contract ox consultants, in any way, to the Department of 
State? 

A No. 

2 Did you ever meet Mr. Robert Kagan? 

A I don't recall meeting him or my father. 




803 






NAME: HIR2S7000 ^ ...,..-..-.- ^ .-. . ^- j>hqz 167 

4092 2 Did you ever meet Otto Reich? 

U093 A No. 

14094 2 Jonathon Miller? 

4095 A Not that I recall. 

4096 2 John Blacken. 

4097 A No. 

4098 2 nark Richards? 

4099 A I don't recall any. 

4100 2 Walt Raymond? 

4101 A I don't believe so. 

4102 2 Did you ever meet Dave Fischer? 

4103 A I don't believe so. 

4104 2 Bruce Cameron? 

4105 A I don't believe so. 

4106 2 Dan Kuykendall? 

4107 A Yes. 

4108 2 Uhen did you meet Dan Kuykendall? 

4109 A Probably met him once or twice. One time I can 
4 110 remember was a luncheon meeting at The Honocle, o£ all 

4111 places, somatine. X think early to mid-October oi 1986. 

4112 Present at the meeting was Spitz Channell and at least two 

4113 oi his associates/ and my father, and I--and we talked about 

4114 a number of things. ., , - , 

4115 But p - gesMi r tl y . the discussion revolved around the 

4116 conception and cnation of the final ad series of that 




804 



NAHE: 
4117 
(4 118 
4119 
U 120 
4 12 1 
4122 
4 123 
4 124 
4125 
4126 
4 127 
4128 
4129 
4130 
4131 
4132 
4133 
4134 
4135 
4136 
4137 
4 138 
4139 
4140 
414 1 






HIR2S7000 V-- pj(,f. ,g3 

election year ul\ich uas an ad series that, ultimately, led 
to the creation of this spot that uas used m the Tim Uirth 
campaign . 

2 As a result of this meeting, were the spots also 
produced that related to Congressman Bryant, Congressman 
Coleman? 

A Yes, sir, same series. 

e Congressman Wright and Senator Cranston? 

A Yes, that is correct. Though, at that meeting I 
understand, as I recall, there were no real discussions of 
absolute targets. If there was, it uas very unspecific. 
The meetings were really designed to come up with a creative 
concept and approach to the television spots ultimately 
developed for that campaign. 

e What did Hr . Channell tell you Mr. Kuykendall's 
role uas with his organization? 

A I can't recall anything specific. ny impression 
uas he uas an adviser to Hr . Channell, and I wasn't even 
auara if he uas paid or otherwise. 

2 Did you evar have any otiier meetings with him? 

A KO. 

2 Did you ever attend any legislative strategy 
meetings at the offices of XBC or PRODEMCA? 

A Legislative strategy sessions meaning-- 

2 Sessions that included a number of people who were 






805 



NAME 

^ m2 

M 143 

"4 ms 

UlUb 

U 147 

141(48 

14 149 

(4150 

415 1 

4152 

4153 

4154 

4155 

4156 

4157 

4 158 

4159 

4160 

4161 

4162 

4163 

•4164 

4165 

4166 



HIR25'000 




dm'i 



PAGE 169 



working uith Mr. Channell to try to influence the Congress 
ajid vote on aid to the freedom fighters? 

A I think I have described when ue were first 
interviewed by you in July, that I can recall at least one. 
probably note t4««4 one occasion, where there would be an on- 
going meeting. There would be a meeting already in session 
where Mr. Channell, Dan Conrad, Richard Miller, Frank Gomez, 
typically, and others, were involved, and we would come at 
an appointed time. 

Sometimes it was held at IBC — sometimes — I think it 
happened more than once, and we would walk in on q4ii«- and 

Cue. 

make a talk about the television and what we wanted to do 
with the television. Then we would leave and the meeting 
would continue. 

2 That would be you and your father? 

A My father and I. 

2 And you would describe the ads, not just the ads, 
without talking about the districts they were running in and 
discuss that? 

A I don't recall any discussions in those kinds of 
meetings about legislative strategy. Certainly, not when ue 
were involved. It was really about the creative 
approach--what we were going to say in this particular spot, 
how we were going to get the v i o inAty for that rnml th at- spot(£;) 



{ji/» mi 



ght have been contemplating that type of thing. 



iifiu.mm 






806 



Hknz- 

4167 
4168 
4169 
4 170 
4 17 1 
4172 
4173 
4174 
4175 
4 176 
4177 
4178 
4179 
4180 
4181 
4182 
4183 
4184 
4185 
4186 
4187 
4188 
4 189 
4190 
4191 




■ #*i ft ^ Ol • 5^ 

HIR257000 U^yVAd^^" - PAGE 170 

And also involved in at least one meeting, I can 
specifically recall, was a representative of the Edelman 
group uho , ue were told, uas doing public relations for Mr. 
Channell. And tuo or three times that I can recall, I had a 
convt;r sation with their representative, whoever it was. uho 
just wanted to know. I think basically, when spots would be 
going on the air. I can't recall any time when we were 
present in any of those, when legislative strategy, as you 
are defining it, was discussed. 

2 Did you ever meet Jack Lichenstein? 

A No . 

2 Did you ever meet Ed Fraser? 

A The name sounds familiar, but I can't recall. 

2 Were you ever told by Hr . Channell or Mr. Conrad, 
or any of their associates, of other activities that were 
taking place in Congressional districts, such as grassroots 
organizing, direct mail, things that supplemented or would 
have supplemented in a political campaign sense, the 
television advertising that you were doing? 

A It uas our impression that Mr. Miller was heading 
up the grassroots, as you call it, grassroots PR lobbying 
effort which involved a lot of things. I think, at one 
point, we heard about an effort to fly news directors of 
local television stations from around the country down to 
Nicaragua to actually show then what uas going on down 



i 




PlhQOtn 



mmB 



807 



NAHE : 
4192 
4193 
4 194 
419S 
4196 
4197 
4198 
4199 
4200 
4201 
4202 
4203 
4204 
420S 
4206 
4207 
4208 
4209 
4210 
421 1 
4212 
4213 
4214 
4215 
4216 



,1.3=,... UHyLf^^ji;? ItU 



PAGE 171 

there . 

Ue would get that in bits and pieces, just in general 
conversation; but I don't ever recall having been shown or 
told exactly everything that fir. Miller and his associates 
were developing on behalf of Mr. Channell in public 
relations grassroots lobbying. 

2 Were you aware that you were part of a larger 
af f ort--there were a lot of different elenents to this 
campaign? 

A Absolutely. And going back to that March 1986 
letter that ua have already entered into the evidence--was it 
March--! am sorry, it was April. The critique letter, where 
under the section of tean--f rankly , I was maybe, I think, I 
don't know if my father shared this sentiment as much as I 
did. We felt we were outsiders looking in, part of a bigger 
thing. We felt so ignorant about the totality of Mr. 
Channell's organization. 

When I say Mr. Channell's organization, I include 
Richard Miller and others in that, that we felt slighted or 
a little left out of the process. In hindsight. Thank God 
we weren't given a chance to run with our feelings and 
become more directly involved in the group. But, yes, the 



best way to describe the relationship iSiian outsider looking 
in,''^small part of a bigger pie, we only knew what the crust 
around us looked like. 



UNClASSirlEO 



808 



NAHE : 
4217 
4218 
42 19 
4220 
422 1 
4222 
4223 
4224 
4225 
4226 
4227 
4228 
4229 
4230 
4231 
4232 
4233 
4234 
4235 
4236 
4237 
4238 
4239 
4240 
4241 



HIR2S 



.. m WM 



S9?^f; ■-;'"- U;' "i'^-^^ PAGE 172 
2 Were you auare that this campaign that Hr . Miller 



uas conducting in conjunction with Mr. Channell was 
coordinating its efforts with the Uhite House campaign? 

A No . 

2 Do you know John Roberts? 

A No. 

2 Do you know Ed Rollins? 

A Yes . 

2 Do you know who recommended you to the Channell 
organization? 

A Again, as I think it was one of the first 
questions-- 

2 You indicated who called you first, but I wonder if 
you ever found out or ever learned who recommended? 

A No. In fact, if there is an overt recomraendation-- 

2 You indicated a moment ago in the discussion of the 
March 19th letter from your attorney to Curtis Herge, that 
you were not aware of the different elements of Spitz 
Channell's organizations. 

1 wonder if I could ask you to look back for a moment 
at Exhibit No. 8, which I believe you indicated uas a 
document prepared by you? 

A Yes. 

2 And the the first sentence on the cover page says, 
''The paid media chronology of the NEPL, American 




809 



NAME: 
t42U2 
1*243 
^2^n 

U2U5 

(42146 

142U7 

U2148 

42149 

4250 

14251 

■4252 

4253 

4254 

4255 

4256 

4257 

4258 

4259 

4260 

4261 

M262 

4263 

4264 

4265 

4266 



HIR2S7000 ynULHU'Ji^' hLI? page 173 
Conservative Trust'', and then it says, parenthesis, 
''federal and state'', underlined and, ''and state''? 

A Yes. 

2 Uhich would seem to indicate that you did 
understand that there was a difference between the 
organizations, is that correct? 

A No, it is not correct. It is a good question. 
This was prepared on January 10th, 1987. A feu days prior 
to that, there was a meeting where Mr. HcMahon, Steve 
McHahon, and Cliff Smith came to Baltimore, and they went to 
talk, at that point, to our bookkeeper. Colleen Vickers, to 
see what our books were saying about what the accounts were 
and so on and so forth. And either on that day 
specifically, I know on that day j.t was discussed with 
Colleen--she is better able to dibcuss this than I--and maybe 
even prior to that, they star ted--they meaning Mr. 
Channell--and/or members of his organization, started to 
enlighten us as to the differences between th« 
organizations . 

And ua wars told, at the very least no later than that 
day, I think it was the 5th or 6th of January, a few days 
before it was prepared, that look, you showed no--this is not 
ACT, it is ACT federal, state checks, copies of checks which 
we keep. And on those checks sometimes they had nothing 
other than ACT, sometimes federal, sometimes nothing. We 



lINCWSSIflEO 



810 



NAME : 
4267 

U269 
4270 
427 1 
U272 
4273 
4274 
4275 
4276 
4277 
4278 
4279 
4280 
4281 
4282 
4283 
4284 
4285 
4286 
4287 
4288 
4289 
4290 
4291 



KI.257000 yj^y|l.^S-i!jSf i-- •'"" 



PAGE 174 

didn't know, just n»ti from them. Ue had an understanding 
from them. There was more than one ACT fund which is uhy I 
alluded to federal and state. I got that education. 

2 Were you aware at that point there might be a 
problem with spending state election PAC funds? 

A No, nothing. The charters that govern these 
organizations, we weren't sure what the legalities were. 

2 But you are aware of the difference between the 
Kinds of funds that can be contributed to the state 
elections, and the kind of funds that can be contributed to 
federal elections? For instance, in Maryland, where-- 

A No. 

2 You are very active, corporate contributions, are 
allowed for state elections, they are not allowed for 
federal elections. 

A Yes. 

2 I assume you are aware of that distinctive 
difference between federal and state elections? 

A I should as a political_;^-^g.ood_ question, it is a 
good question as a political professional, as a media 
consultant. I should say yes. Unfortunately, I think I 
probably speak for my father and Ron Wilner, the answer is 
really no, u« know, basically, a corporation can't 
contribute to federal candidates and so on. Ue are so 
uniTifozned about the dos and don'ts in terms of political 




811 



NAME ■ 

4292 
4293 
4294 
4295 
4296 
4297 
4298 
4299 
4300 

430 1 
4302 
4303 
4304 
4305 
4306 
4307 
4308 
4309 
4310 

431 1 
4312 
4313 
43 14 
4315 
4316 



HIR257000 



mm hm^^^ 



AGE 175 



fundraismg that I would ba ashamed to have to urite out 
what little I know about it. 

2 Did the terra American Conservative Trust State 
Election Fund ever appear in the video or audio credit lines 
on the ads? 

A Never, because we never had the knowledge that 
there was more than one ACT. Ue thought it was all one and 
the same . 

2 When you seek to purchase time from a television 
station, what kind of information are you required to give 
them about the sponsor of the ad, if any? 

A We are not required to give them any information. 
They will often ask, especially when it's a public interest 
group. They, I think they mentioned the station 
management--certainly their attorneys--are very interested in 
at least knowing the basic identity and founding principals 
of whatever organization wants to fund this kind of 
television advertising on the stations. 

1 don't think it's a written rule, but it's certainly 
requested nore often than not. 

2 Do you have to comply with any federal reporting 
regulations of any kind when you place an ad which is an 
independent expenditure in a federal campaign? 

A Hot that I am aware of. When you do television for 
political candidates in political campaigns, there is a form 






812 



HAME: 
4317 
U318 
43 19 
4320 
432 1 
4322 
4323 
4324 
4325 
4326 
4327 
4328 
4329 
4330 
4331 
4332 
4333 
4334 
4335 
4336 






HIR2S7000 I n-^'*...r»? -■ 'M r9-.?J page 176 
you fill out. Ue call it PB-9, now called PB-10, basically, 
a disclaimer of iniotmation that says ue ate tepresenting so 
and so. Senator so and so, and will be buying his or her 
time in the election, at will be held on, give the date, it 
is being funded by, and list the name of the committee that 
is paying for the spots or spots to come. And that is used 
in political campaigns, but independent expenditure, ue 
never had to I»t Ijy PB-9. I don't think ue ever had to or 
have been following-- 

e I believe you say it was in December or January 
1987, Jeff Keifer from IBC contacted you and asked you for, 
X guess, a report on their overall expenditures in 1985 and 
1986? 

A He uanted a basic repor t/'chronology and, as I 
recall, he uas really most interested if not only 
interested, in the numbers, meaning the dollars that uere 
expended. As I indicated earlier in the testimony, I think 
X just listed next to the expenditures on each of the 
markets for each flight, the spots that uere actually run m 
those markets . 



(/NCUJJifi) 



813 



name: HIR257000 U 1 1 ' jLHd I ll t SJ "" '^^ 

U337 RPTS STEIN 

14338 DCMH DANIELS 

U339 ; 5 : 30 p .ra. I 

MS^O 2 So if he hadn't made this request, you would never 

i»3m have discovered the discrepancies irom 1985, for instance? 

4342 A No. Ue started to do a review of our books. That 

U343 document that was dated December 22nd already showed us 

431414 there were discrepancies that we had to be cognizant of-- 

4345 Q That was a result of the stories m the newspaper? 

4346 A Yes, very much. 

4347 fi Did you or your father introduce Frank Gomez at one 

4348 of the Hay Adams neetings of contributors after a White 

4349 House briefing? 

4350 A I don't think so, no. 

4351 MR. SCHWAIT: Introduce him to whom? 

4352 . MR. OLIVER: I do not have a copy of the document, 

4353 but there was a--I will aver to you that there was a copy of 

4354 a document produced by another entity that indicated that on 

4355 the schedule for what was going to take place at this 

■4356 meeting, it has so-and-so opens meeting, so-and-so comes on 

4357 and it had Bob Goodman introducing Frank Gomez. 

4358 THE WITNESS: I don't think I did. I don't recall 

4359 that. 

4360 BY HR. OLIVER: 

436 1 2 Have you ever heard of an organization or an entity. 



*«ssa 



814 



NAME: 
14362 
U363 
4364 
M365 
U366 
4367 
4368 
4369 
4370 
437 1 
4372 
4373 
4374 
4375 
4376 
4377 
4378 
4379 
4380 
4381 
4382 
4383 
4384 
4385 
4386 






HIR2S7000 liJlWl.1 i'Sj J"* J •'^^' PAGE 178 
called Parkefeld Enterprises? 
A No. 

2 When you attended these meetings or briefings at 
the White House followed by the Hay Adams function, I 
believe you said you attended two of those-- 

A Yes. 

2 Did you become aware at chose meetings that the 
money that was being asked of theue potential contributors 
would be tax deductible? 

A I don't recall anything about tax deductibility of 
contributions. If it was discussed, I either don't remember 
It or it wasn't discussed in the presence of myself or my 
father . 

2 You said earlier that the disclaimers on all the TV 
ads matched your bills? 

A Yes. 

2 They did not match the checks? 

A No. and we didn't realize that until we audited the 
books at the end of 1986. 

2 Is there--does that indicata that any of that could 
happen, if this story hadn't broken, that your books would 
have reflected payments from people other than the people 
who the ads were credited to in your books? 

HR. SCOTT: I object to the form of that question. 
THE WITNESS: Could you restate that? I am sorry. 




ir 



Q.mtm 



815 



mi^Mm 



HAni HIR2S7000 I I 5 T IC 1,.i; u V *-:■ '' 2 ^^ >• '-^ PAGE 179 

4387 . BY MR. OLIVER: 

1388 2 What I ara concerned about is whether or r.ot m a 

4389 television campaign designed to influence the Congress, that 

4390 ads can be run in congressional districts which are credited 

4391 to one entity which are paid for by another and in this case 

4392 you seened to indicate earlier that the only reason you went 

4393 back to reconstruct your books was because of the stories 

4394 that appeared in the newspaper regarding the Ir an/contr as . 

4395 . If those stories had not appeared, your books would 

4396 still have reflected payments from organizations other than 

4397 thosa reflected on the story lines; is that correct? 

4398 A Yes, but may I continue with--if we could go off the 

4399 record a minuta . 

4400 . [Discussion off the record. 1 

4401 nR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

4402 . BY MR. OLIVER: 

4403 2 Uhen you began to realize the impact of this 

4404 campaign, I think you referred to it as sort of a new method 

4405 of influencing legislation, did it occur to you that you 

4406 might need to register as a lobbyist? 

4407 A You mean our agency? 

4408 . e Yes. 

4409 A No, nevar. 

4410 S You indicated earlier that in a normal political 

4411 campaign which you engage in quite often, you all do 



\\m hmni 



816 



HIR2S7000 Uu\«tH'-^*-^*^^ '^**' p, 



NAHE: nxK^s/uuu 1^»»'\'' »=•■*• "^ " PAGE 180 

4412 everything from soup to nuts, I think you have made a rather 

4413 expansive representation. 

4414 A Right. 

44 IS fi But in this campaign, you are telling us that your 

4416 role was narrowly limited to producing television ads and 

4417 the copy requested by Spitz Channell and you were not 

4418 involved in the legislative strategy, you were not involved 
44 19 in fund-raising, and you were not primarily involved in 

4420 targeting, that you took your direction targeting from Rich 

4421 Miller and Spitz Channell; is that correct? 

4422 A That is correct. 

4423 2 Was there also a time in which you were attempting 

4424 to solve a problem with running television ads in the 

4425 Hartford-Hew Haven market? 

4426 A As I recall, the reason we ran spots or were 

4427 directed to run spots in Hew Haven was to reach Greenwich, 

4428 Connecticut, because there was a major contributor, Barbara 

4429 Hewington, who lived there. It is the same thing we 

4430 discussed with Ellen Garwood, the reason Mr. Channell placed 

4431 spots in Austin. 

4432 fi You indicated that you had met Oliver Horth twice, 

4433 X believe, once at the meeting in the Indian War Treaty 

4434 Room, which you referred to in an earlier letter to Tred 

4435 Sacher, and again at a White House briefing prior to a--I 

4436 guess the January 30th brief ing--prior to a meeting at the 




817 



NAME: 
^t437 

UU38 
41439 
UUUO 
UUU 1 

Mt4U3 

tttUS 
(4UU6 
414 47 
4448 
4449 
•4450 
4451 
4452 
4453 
4454 
4455 
4456 
4457 
4458 
4459 
4460 
4461 



wmm . 



HIR257000 U J 1 W iH 1" «;^ v,? ? ■-. " ,» - PAGE 18 1 
Hay Adams; is that correct? 

A I only recall, and I think my father really--I think 
he has the same recollection, he only recalls seeing Oliver 
North once at Mr. Channell's two fund-raisers. 

We saw hira also for that terrorism briefing 
somewhere in the Old Executive Office Building, so our 
recollection is we saw him twice, but once at a fund-raiser, 
once at a terrorism briefing. If Colonel North was at the 
second briefing, neither my father or I can recall that. 

2 Was that primarily for you, the terrorism briefing? 

A Yes, that was for us. 

2 Do you remember when that occurred? 

A In the documents we submitted, we had a transcript 
for a terrorism film and it is awfully close to the date on 
that document. 

I don't have it handy so whatever the date on the 
document reflects — I think Ron Wilner, who did the script, 
did it a week after that meeting. 

2 Could it have been January 11, 1986? 

A Possibly. I remembei it was cold. 

e If you would look at Exhibit No. 4, on April 3, 
1986, there is a commercial No. 86-430 entitled ''Throw 
Honey.'' On that paga at the bottom there is some 
handwriting . 

Is that your handwriting? 



\\m\ AQC'^Mr^i 



818 



NAME: 
U1462 
4463 

144614 

4465 
4466 
4467 
4468 
4469 
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HIR2S7000 j,« ,< sVi? </•■'•■'**"•■"■' ■■ PAGE 182 

A Yes. It i's . 

2 Do you recall why you were calling Rich Miller in 
relation to this particular ad? If that is what that 
handwriting indicates? 

A I can't recall why it is on there. Possibly I 
called Rich Miller at Spitz Channell's instruction or 
someone else in the organization just to read the spots to 
hire . 

2 Do you know what the other phone nunber there. 980- 
2019, is? 

A Mo. Let's call it. I don't know. Let's call and 
see what we get. 

2 Did you feel there was any problem with this ad in 
terms oi whether or not the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty, which was a 501(c)(3) could run 
this ad? 

A He didn't even think about that. 

2 Well/ the reason I ask is because this seems to be 
the only ad that is directed against Democrats and it says, 
''Look what some Democrats in Washington are putting out. 
When are those Democrats going to earn? The Communists in 
Nicaragua don't want our money. They want us.'' 

Has there discussion about whether or not this 
might be going over the line of public education tactics 
because of the text? 






819 



NAME : 
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4488 
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HIR257000 i i)\:-'-.'^^ ?/>^'t\V- '■■'l^^V' PI 



'AGE 183 

HR. SCOTT: I object. I think he has made it clear 
that he didn't understand at the time that it was a tax- 
exerapt ocganization. 

The question infers he had some knowledge. I think 
he has testified to the fact that he didn't have. I just . 
object to the form of the question. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
2 Is it your testimony that you did not know that 
these ads that Spitz Channell was running were paid for by 
tax-deductible money in 1986? 

A Those ads funded by the National Endowment-- 
2 Any ads-- 

A We weren't aware of the tax-exempt status or lack 
thereof of any of the organizations. 

HR. OLIVER: Thank you very much, Hr .