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Y l.l/2:Serial 13759

United States Congressional..,

Government
Documents

I pT ft: '

n. 1 i?< »1 fl rot'fi

100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987

Senate Report

No. 216

AUG2S13SO

IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 18
DEPOSITIONS

United States Congressional Serial Set

Serial Number 13759

United States Government Printing Office
Washington : 1989

Union Calendar No. 277
100th Congress, 1st Session
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433

Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the

Iran-Contra Affair

Appendix B: Volume 18
Depositions

Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman,
Senate Select Committee

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman,
House Select Committee

U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed.

November 17, 1987. -Ordered to be printed.

Washington : 1988

Bnlttd States 3enatt

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION

WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480

March 1, 1988

Honorable John C. Stennis
President pro tempore
United States Senate
Washington, D.C.

Dear Mr. President:

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become
available.

Sincerely,

Warren B. Rudman
Vice Chairman

III

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN

UNITED STATES CAPITOL

WASHINGTON. DC 20615

(202) 225-7902

March 1, 1988

The Honorable Jim Wright
Speaker of the House
U. S. Capitol
Washington, D. C. 20515

Dear Mr . Speaker :

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair,
House Report No. 100-433, lOOth Congress, 1st Session.

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of
Appendix B have been declassified fop-vrelease to the public.

Lee H. Hamilton
Chairman

United States Senate

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman

George J. Mitchell, Maine

Sam Nunn, Georgia
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama
David L. Boren, Oklahoma

James A. McClure, Idaho

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah

William S. Cohen, Maine

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia

Arthur L. Liman
Chief Counsel

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel

To the Chief Counsel

Mary Jane Checchi
Executive Director

Lance I. Morgan
Press Officer

United States House of Representatives

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms
Transactions with Iran

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman

Thomas S. Foley, Washington

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey

Jack Brooks, Texas

Louis Stokes, Ohio

Les Aspin, Wisconsin

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts

Ed Jenkins, Georgia

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking RepubUcan

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois

Jim Courter, New Jersey

Bill McCollum, Florida

Michael DeWine, Ohio

John W. Nields, Jr.
Chief Counsel

W. Neil Eggleston
Deputy Chief Counsel

Kevin C. Miller
Staff Director

Thomas R. Smeeton
Minority Staff Director

George W. Van Cleve
Chief Minority Counsel

Richard J. Leon
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel

VII

United States Senate

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition

Arthur L. Liman
Chief Counsel
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel

to the Chief Counsel

Mary Jane Checchi
Executive Director

Lance I. Morgan
Press Officer

Associate Counsels

C. H. Albright, Jr.
Daniel Finn
C. H. Holmes
James E. Kaplan
Charles M. Kerr
Joel P. Lisker

W. T. McGough, Jr.
Richard D. Parry
John D. Saxon
Terry A. Smiljanich
Timothy C. Woodcock

Committee Staff

Assistant Counsels

Legal Counsel
Intelligence/Foreign

Policy Analysts
Investigators

Press Assistant
General Accounting
Office Detailees

Security Officer
Security Assistants

Chief Clerk
Deputy Chief Clerk

Steven D. Arkin*
Isabel K. McGinty
John R. Monsky
Victoria F. Nourse
Philip Bobbitt
Rand H. Fishbein
Thomas Polgar
Lawrence R.

Embrey, Sr.
David E. Faulkner
Henry J. Flynn
Samuel Hirsch
John J. Cronin
Olga E. Johnson
John C. Martin
Melinda Suddes*
Robert Wagner
Louis H. Zanardi
Benjamin C.

Marshall
Georgiana

Badovinac
David Carty
Kim Lasater
Scott R. Thompson
Judith M. Keating*
Scott R. Ferguson

Staff Assistants

Administrative Staff

Secretaries

Receptionist
Computer Center
Detailee

John K. Appleby
Ruth Balin
Robert E. Esler
Ken Foster*
Martin H. Garvey
Rachel D. Kaganoff*
Craig L. Keller
Hawley K.

Manwarring
Stephen G. Miller
Jennie L. Pickford*
Michael A. Ray nor
Joseph D.

Small wood*
Kristin K. Trenholm
Thomas E. Tremble
Bruce Vaughn
Laura J. Ison
Hilary Phillips
Winifred A. Williams*
Nancy S. Durflinger
Shari D. Jenifer
Kathryn A. Momot
Cindy Pearson
Debra S. Sheffield*
Ramona H. Green
Preston Sweet

VIII

Committee Members' Designated Liaison

Senator Inouye
Senator Rudman

Senator Mitchell

Senator Nunn

Senator Sarbanes
Senator Heflin

Peter Simons
William V. Cowan
Thomas C. Polgar
Richard H.
Arenberg
Eleanore Hill
Jeffrey H. Smith
Frederick Millhiser
Thomas J. Young

Senator Boren

Senator McClure
Senator Hatch

Senator Cohen

Senator Trible

Sven Holmes
Blythe Thomas
Jack Gerard
Dee V. Benson
James G. Phillips
James Dykstra
L. Britt Snider
Richard Cullen

Part Time*

Assistant Counsel
Hearings Coordinator
Staff Assistants

Interns

Peter V. Letsou
Joan M. Ansheles
Edward P.

Flaherty, Jr.
Barbara H. Hummell
David G. Wiencek
Nona Balaban
Edward E.

Eldridge, III
Elizabeth J. Glennie
Stephen A. Higginson
Laura T. Kunian
Julia F. Kogan
Catherine L. Udell

Document Analyst

Historian

Volunteers

Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt
Edward L. Keenan
Lewis Liman
Catherine Roe
Susan Walsh

*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during
the life of the Committee, provided services.

United States House of Representatives

Select Committee to Investigate
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran

Majority Staff

Special Deputy

Chief Counsel
Staff Counsels

Press Liaison
Chief Clerk
Assistant Clerk
Research Director
Research Assistants

John W. Nields, Jr.
Chief Counsel

W. Neil Eggleston
Deputy Chief Counsel

Kevin C. Miller
Staff Director

Charles Tiefer

Kenneth M. Ballen
Patrick J. Carome
V. Thomas

Fryman, Jr.
Pamela J.

Naughton
Joseph P. Saba
Robert J. Havel
Ellen P. Rayner
Debra M. Cabral
Louis Fisher
Christine C.

Birmann
Julius M.

Genachowski
Ruth D. Harvey
James E. Rosenthal

Systems

Administrator
Systems

Programmer/

Analysts
Executive Assistant
Staff Assistants

Catherine L.

Zimmer
Charles G. Ratcliff
Stephen M.

Rosenthal
Elizabeth S. Wright
Bonnie J. Brown
Christina Kalbouss
Sandra L. Koehler
Jan L. Suter
Katherine E. Urban
Kristine Willie
Mary K. Yount

Minority Staff

Associate Minority

Counsel
Assistant Minority

Counsel
Minority Research

Director

Thomas R. Smeeton
Minority Staff Director

George W. Van Cleve
Chief Minority Counsel

Richard J. Leon
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel

Robert W.
Genzman
Kenneth R. Buck

Bruce E. Fein

Minority Staff
Editor/Writer

Minority Executive
Assistant

Minority Staff
Assistant

Michael J. Malbin

Molly W. Tully

Margaret A.
Dillenburg

Committee Staff

Investigators

Director of Security

Robert A.

Bermingham
James J. Black
Thomas N.

Ciehanski
William A. Davis,

III
Clark B. Hall
Allan E. Hobron
Roger L. Kreuzer
Donald Remstein
Jack W. Taylor
Timothy E. Traylor
Bobby E. Pope

Security Officers

Editor

Deputy Editor
Associate Editor
Production Editor
Hearing Editors

Printing Clerk

Rafael Luna, Jr.
Theresa M. Martin
Milagros Martinez
Clayton C. Miller
Angel R. Torres
Joseph Foote
Lisa L. Berger
Nina Graybill
Mary J. Scroggins
David L. White
Stephen G. Regan
G. R. Beckett

Associate Staff

Representative
Hamilton

Representative
Fascell

Representative

Foley
Representative

Rodino

Representative

Brooks
Representative

Stokes
Representative

Aspin

Michael H.

Van Dusen
Christopher Kojm
R. Spencer Oliver
Bert D. Hammond
Victor Zangla
Heather S. Foley
Werner W. Brandt
M. Elaine Mielke
James J.

Schweitzer
William M. Jones

Michael J. O'Neil
Richard M. Giza
Richard E. Clark
Warren L. Nelson

Representative

Boland
Representative

Jenkins
Representative

Broomfield
Representative

Hyde
Representative

Courter
Representative

McCollum
Representative

DeWine
General Counsel to

the Clerk

Michael W. Sheehy

Robert H. Brink

Steven K. Berry
David S. Addington
Diane S. Dornan

Dennis E. Teti

Tina L. Westby

Nicholas P. Wise

Steven R. Ross

Contents

Volume 18

Preface XXI

Meese, Edwin III 1

Melton, Richard H 255

Merchant, Brian T 327

Meo, Philip H 408

Miller. Arthur J 462

Miller, Henry S 568

Miller, Johnathan 616

Depositions

Volume 1

Airline Proprietary Project Officer.
Alvarez, Francisco J.
Allen, Charles.
Arcos, Cresencio.

Volume 2

Volume 3

Armitage, Richard.
Artiano, Martin L.
Associate DDO (CIA).
Baker, James A., III.
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter.
Harnett, Ana.
Bartlett, Linda June.
Bastian, James H.
Brady. Nicholas F.
Brown, Arthur E., Jr.

Byrne, Phyllis M.
Calero, Adolfo.
Castillo, Tomas ("W").
Cave, George W.
C/CATF.

Volume 4

Channell, Carl R.

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer).

Chatham, Benjamin P.

CIA Air Branch Chief.

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief.

CIA Air Branch Subordinate.

CIA Chief.

CIA Communicator.

CIA Identity "A".

Volume 5

CIA Officer.

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr.

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink).

Clarke. George.

Clarridge. Dewey R.

Cline, Ray S.

C/NE.

Cohen, Harold G.

Volume 6

Collier, George E.

Cole, Gary.

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA.

Conrad, Daniel L.

Volume 7

Cooper, Charles J.
Coors, Joseph.
Corbin. Joan.
Corr, Edwin G.
Coward, John C.
Coy, Craig R
Crawford, Iain T.R.

Crawford, Susan.
Crowe, Adm. William J.
Currier, Kevin W.
DCM, Country 15.
DEA Agent 1.
DEA Agent 2.
DEA Agent 3.
deGraffenreid, Kenneth,
de la Torre, Hugo.
Deputy Chief "DC".

Duemling, Robert W.
DIA Major.
Dietel, J. Edwin.
Dowling, Father Thomas.
Dutton, Robert C.
Earl, Robert.

Volume 8

Volume 9

XVI

Volume 10

Farber, Jacob.
Feldman, Jeffrey.
Fischer, David C.
Floor, Emanuel A.
Former CIA Officer.
Fraser, Donald.
Fraser, Edie.
Fuller, Craig L.

Volume 11

Furmark, Roy.

Gadd, Richard.

Gaffney, Henry.

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A.

Galvin, Gen. John R.

Gantt, Florence.

Garwood, Ellen Clayton.

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C.

Gates, Robert M.

Glanz, Anne.

Rudd).

Volume 12

George, Clair.
Godard, Ronald D.
Godson, Roy S.
Golden, William.
Gomez, Francis D.
Goodman, Adam.
Gorman, Paul F.
Graham, Daniel O.
Gregg, Donald P.
Gregorie, Richard D.
Guillen, Adriana.

Hakim, Albert.

Hall, Wilma.
Hasenfus, Eugene.
Hirtle, Jonathan J.
Hooper, Bruce.

Volume 13

Volume 14

XVII

Hunt, Nelson Bunker.
Ikle, Fred C.
Jensen, D. Lowell.
Juchniewicz, Edward
Kagan, Robert W.
Keel, Alton G.
Kellner, Leon B.
Kelly, John H.
Kiszynski, George.

Koch, Noel C.
Kuykendall, Dan H.
Langton, William G.
Lawn, John C.
Leachman, Chris J., Jr.
Ledeen, Michael A.

Lei want, David O.
Lilac, Robert H.
Lincoln, Col. James B.
Littledale, Krishna S.
McDonald, John William.
McFarlane, Robert C.
McKay, Lt. Col. John C.
McLaughlin, Jane E.

McMahon, John N.
McMahon, Stephen.
McNeil, Frank.
Makowka, Bernard.
Marostica, Don.
Marsh, John.
Mason, Robert H.

Meese, Edwin IIL
Melton, Richard H.
Merchant, Brian T.
Meo, Philip H.
Miller, Arthur J.
Miller, Henry S.
Miller, Johnathan.

Volume 15

Volume 16

Volume 17

Volume 18

XVIII

Miller, Richard R.

Motley, Langhorne A.
Mulligan, David P.
Nagy, Alex G.
Napier, Shirley A.
Newington, Barbara.
North, Oliver L.
O'Boyle, William B.
Osborne, Duncan.
Owen, Robert W.
Pena, Richard.
Pickering, Thomas.
Poindexter, John M.

Posey, Thomas V.
Powell, Gen. Colin L.
Price, Charles H., II.
Proprietary Manager.
Proprietary Pilot.
Radzimski, James R.
Ramsey, John W.
Ransom, David M.

Volume 19

Volume 20

Volume 21

Volume 22

Raymond, Walter, Jr.

Regan, Donald T.

Reich, Otto J.

Revell, Oliver B.

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman).

Reynolds, William B.

Volume 23

Richard, Mark M.
Richardson, John, Jr.
Robelo, Alfonso.
Robinette, Glenn A.
Rodriguez, Felix I.
Roseman, David.

XIX

Rosenblatt, William.

Royer, Larry.

Rudd, Glenn A.

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney).

Rugg, John J.
Russo, Vincent M.
Sanchez, Nestor.
Scharf, Lawrence.
Schweitzer, Robert L.
Sciaroni, Bretton G.
Secord, Richard V.

Shackley, Theodore G.
Sigur, Gaston J.
Simpson, Major C.
Sinclair, Thomas C.
Singlaub, John K.

Slease, Clyde H., IIL
Smith, Clifton.
Sofaer, Abraham D.
Steele, Col. James J.
Taft, William H., IV.
Tashiro, Jack T.
Teicher, Howard.
Thompson, Paul.
Tillman, Jacqueline.

Volume 24

Volume 25

Volume 26

Volume 27

Thurman, Gen. Maxwell.

Trott, Stephen S.

Tull, James L.

Vessey, John.

Walker, William G.

Watson, Samuel J., IIL

Weinberger, Caspar.

Weld, William.

Wickham, John.

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark).

Preface

The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation.

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings.

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents.

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc-
tions to the Select Committees.

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals
retained their own counsel.

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that,
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid
answering a question, his or her compelled responses — or leads or collateral
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order.

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House,
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons.

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information
not considered germane to the investigation.

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow-
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence — were developed by Select
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original

XXI

exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in-
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate.

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages,
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order.

XXII

Publications of the Senate and House
Select Committees

Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair,
1 volume, 1987.

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988.
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988.
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988.
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988.

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S.
Government Printing Office.

XXIII

/sflL .-Vd.'^ die Mj-'-Cltt '
/ Uc^crlMd uid (. Mditcd
/ Not for Qw>Uti&i> or

EPOi'LTION OF ZIj\V.^\ .'Itr-Sf , lil

ednesday, July 8, 1937

.S. House of Representatives,

elect Committee to Investigate Covert

Arms Transactions with Iran,
ashington, D.C.

Cosninittee Hearings

oftlw

U^ HOU&B OF REPRESENTATIVES

Oy^rn! OP TUB CLK^C

UNCU^^'^

yjl^fc^^?^^^

DEPOSITION OF EDWIN MEESE , III

Wednesday, July 8, 1987

U.S. House of Representatives,

Select Committee to Investigate Covert

Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington, D.C.

The Conunittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:35 a.m.,
in Room 5111, Department of Justice, with Pamela J. Naughton
(Staff Counsel of House Select Committee) presiding.

O ~lf of the House Select Committee: Pamela J.
Naughton, . 'J. Leon, emd Robert w. Genzman.

On behalf «. Senate Select Committee: Thomas C.
Polgar and tf^. Thomas McGough.

On behalf of the witness: John R. Bolton and
Steve A. Matthews, Department of Justice.

UfJAO^^^if^a

MS. NAUGHTON: Can we go on the record, please?

We are on the record. My name is Pamela j. Naughton
Staff Counsel to the House Select Committee to Investigate
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran.

I would aslc the people to introduce themselves.

MR. LEON: Richard J. Leon, Deputy Chief Minority
Counsel for the House Iran Committee.

MR. GENZMAN: Robert W. Genzman, Associate Minority
Counsel for the House Committee.

MR. pOLGAR: Thomas C. Polgar with Senator Rudman's
office.

MR. McGOUGH: w. Thomas McGough, Jr., Associate
General Counsel to the Senate Select Committee.

MR. MATTHEWS: Steve A. Matthews, Deputy Assistant
Attorney General.

MR. BOLTON: John Bolton, Assistant Attorney General
for Legislative Affairs.

- ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Edwin Meese, III,
deponent .

MS. NAUGHTON: General Meese, are you represented
by counsel today in your personal capacity?

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Yes. I asked Mr. Bolton
and Mr. Matthews to be here as my representatives.

MS. NAUGHTON: Do you waive any conflicts they might
have either as witnesses or as representatives of the Department

ma^'^tMT

of Justice?

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Yes.

MS. NAUGHTON: Do you waive attorney-client
privilege in terms of what they might or -- or do you want
this deposition to be confidential in terms of attorney-
client privilege?

MR. BOLTON: What do you mean by that exactly?

MS. NAUGHTON: What I mean is —

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: A deposition by its nature

is not confidential. I don't think there is any basis to waive
}

attorney-client privilege. That would only be waived as to
matters that are extraneous to the deposition.

MS. NAUGHTON: All right. Fine.

Finally, I don't know if it has been explained to
you, but in terms of the deposition itself, you will be
given a chance to review the deposition.

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Right.

MS. NAUGHTON: The committee will provide you a
copy. However, that cannot b« copied or disseminated to
anyone else. It must be returned to the c^nonittee after your
public testimony. '

Do you have any questions on the procedure?

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: No. It is agreeable.

Whereupon,

EDWIN MEESE, III
having been called as a witness herein, was duly sworn,
and was examined and testified as follows:

MR. BOLTON: I want to put on the record we went
on the record about 9:40 by my watch.

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE
BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q When did you become Attorney General?

A On the 25th of February, 1985.

Q And prior to that, your position?

A I was the Counsellor to the President.

Q From what years?

A I was Counsellor to the President from, I believe,
the 21st — either the 20th or 21st of January, 1981.

Q General Meese, can you tell us your prosecution
experience in Alameda County?

A Yes. I was in the District Attorney's Office,
Alameda County, from October 1958 through the middle of
January of 1967. During that time, I was a law clerk until I
passed the bar. From about the 7th of January or thereabouts
in 1959, I was a Deputy District Attorney.

Q Did you specialize in any particular type of case?

A I handled all types of criminal offenses under
California law. I was the principal Deputy District Attorney

mfi\ a^m:^^

0R0E¥ISS3^;SBT

1 handling the special investigations and grand ]ury cases for a

2 portion of that time, three or four years. I also was a

3 legislative representative before the California Legislature

4 on -- representing the District Attorneys and Peace Officers

5 of California, specializing in all aspects of criminal law,

6 criminal procedure.

7 Q Other than assuming your post as Attorney General,

8 have you had any Federal criminal law enforcement experience?

9 A Not as a Federal officer, no. I have had other

10 criminal experience. I was the Vice-Chairman of the

11 Organized Crime Control Commission in California from about

12 1977 or 1978, I think 1977, through 1979 or 1980, during the

13 pendency of that Commission. And, of course, I have had

14 other experience as a professor of law and director of a

15 criminal justice center.

16 Q While you were at the White House as Counsellor to

17 the President, did you have any interaction with Oliver North?

18 A Yes, in the sense that I saw him on occasion in the

19 White House and in the Executive Office Building and in the

20 White House complex generally.

21 I would see him from time to time, pass him on the

22 street. I believe sat in on some meetings where he may have

23 been present and probably had some conversations with him at

24 other times, either in my office or otherwise. I have no

25 specific recollection of a particular conversation, but I

tIiltil>^^I^T

did see him from time to time as I saw other members of the
National Security staff.

Q Do you know on what areas you may have
interacted with him?

A I don't have any specific recollections now. He
was doing a number of things in what is generally called
military political operations, I think was the part of the
National Security Council staff he was involved in.

Q But do you recall what his accounts were?

A I dcjn ' t remember particularly. I think he was
involved in Central America while I was there and -- but in a
whole variety of things, I think he also represented them in
other matters, perhaps continuity of Government matters.
Generally, they were things that had to do with the
relationship between military activities and national security
affairs.

Q Were you ever present with Mr. North at any meetings
with the President? |

A I cannot recall a specific meeting where he was
present with the President, but it is entirely possible that
there may have been some times when he was there as a
staffer.

In National Security Council meetings and National
Security Planning Group meetings, there were often members of
the NSC staff seated around the edges of the room and I can't

SiiNCUlS.^iWFn

UNCMS££€^T

recall specifically whether Oliver North was one of those;
but my general recollection is that he may have been present
on one or more meetings.

Q During your time at the White House, what, if any,
opinion did you have about Oliver North?

A Well, I would say that my opinion was that he was a
hard working, dedicated Marine Corps officer.

Q Did you ever know him to disobey orders or go beyond
orders or do anything that wasn't --

A Nbt to my knowledge.

Q Did you ever discuss Colonel North with the President
prior to, let's say, November of 1986?

A Not that I can recall. I don't have any
recollection of discussing him with the President, no.

Q So you don't know what opinion the President may have
held about Oliver North prior to November of 1986; is that
correct?

A 1 don't have — I don't recall that I ever heard
anything or had any discussions that would lead me to have
an opinion, no.

Q I want to ask you a couple of questions about the

22 records that you provided. We had, you know, phone logs,

23 calendars and so forth. And I assume these were kept
contemporaneously? - ,

25 A Yes, to the best of my knowledge.

Q But would they be complete?

In other words, would every call in your office or
sent from your office be on the telephone log?

A Not necessarily. I think we tried to keep them as
much as possible, and I believe they are relatively complete.
My secretary tried to record most calls, either that came in
through the normal system, through the front office here,
or that came directly to her; but it is possible that there
may have been calls for one reason or the other that may not
have been incliided there.

For the most part, we tried to keep it complete.

Q Does she place all of your calls?

A Yes. Normally she would place all of my calls.
There may be an occasion that I would place a call myself if
she wasn't at the desk or -- or if I, for example, was calling
my wife or something.

It is possible, but I didn't do that very frequently.
Most of the time she would place all of my calls.

Q Of the calendars that we received, we received
some typewritten ones.

A Yes.

Q Do you in addition to that keep your own personal
handwritten calendar?

A No, not really. I occasionally keep notes on what
I am doing, but not systematically. Certainly I don't keep

aroBASficBiT

notes on a detailed, hour-by-hour basis personally. i do
keep generally where I am on a given day.

Q I guess my inquiry is more like those calendar
books on a desk that some people keep. Do you have --

A I have one of those books, but I don't use that to
record hour-by-hour activities.

Q Going to those records, if you can recall -- and I
have copies — on June 19, 1985, there was a call from
Judge Webster on the secure line that says "hot line" on your
notes, and thep from Oliver North on a secure line, and then thn
White House Operations — the message reads, "For R.R.--"
— whom I assume is Ronald Reagan — " -- and reach
Stan Marcus", who at the time may have been the U.S. Attorney
in Florida.

If you need to refresh your recollection — I
wasn't planning on putting it in as an exhibit.

A These would be phone calls on the 19th of June.
What year is this?

Q 1985.

A 1985?

Q Do you recall what that was about?

A No.

Oh. The only thing I can think of is here where it
says "White House operator for R.R. trying to reach
Stan Marcus, gave Florida number, referred to signal".

I think that what that means probably is that the
President was trying to reach Stan Marcus. It may have been
that the President was trying to reach Stan Marcus to tell
him he wanted to appoint him a judge.

Mr. Marcus, who was then the U.S. Attorney, became
a judge. And I would assume that I may have been in Florida
that day. I am not sure, because it says Judge Webster on the
hot line gave the Florida number.

This is in the handwriting of the lady who was then
my secretary,' Marilee Melvin, I think. "Oliver North on
secure line gave Florida number."

I don't know if either of them reached me if I was
in Florida.

Q Okay. On October 2nd, 1985, there is a similar
message, "received call from R.R. — " -- it looks to be
at 11:10. Later on at 10:30, "received call from Mike Ledeen.'

I ask you if you could refresh your recollection
with that and tell us if you can recall what happened on
October 2nd, 1985?

A I cannot — this does not refresh my recollection
about anything that I remember. I can probably give you a
speculation. It says, "received call from R.R. at 11:10,
incomplete. "

It says, "called Kulia and Seibert with the message.'
Dick Kulia was ray security officer on that day.

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

1 Sargeant Seibert is my driver. It says, "told

2 White House operator E.M. would call in five minutes. E.M.

3 called back from the Departmental Auditorium."

4 I believe on the 2nd of October, 1985, I was probably

5 at the Departmental Auditorium in connection with the

6 Interpol conference.

7 That is my guess. That was in October 1985. That is

8 the only time I remember going to the Departmental Auditorium

9 around then.

■JO Then it says, "10:30, received a call from

•J1 Mike Ledeen, also incomplete."

12 Apparently, it was regarding — it says something,

13 it looks like "Heritol" or something. I am not sure.
I am not sure what the rest is. "Counterterrorisra. "

15 And then it gives a number or a White House number which
15 appears to be an executive — or a Signal Corps switchboard

number. I don't know what it was. I have a vague recollection

that about that time I think maybe Mike Ledeen brought

someone in from Israel because it says — this looks like it

may be Israeli — yes. Israeli. Something "Israeli

re counterterrorism." I have a vague recollection there was a

fellow from Israel who visited me who was a counterterrorism

specialist.

It may have something to do with that.
Q Your calendar reflects several visits with

1 Mr. Ledeen in the time period of 1985 and 1986. Can you tell

2 us what you discussed with him?

3 A I don't think "several visits". It may be a few

4 visits. I don't remember very many. I don't know how many

5 there have been.

6 I can remember him coming in once or twice on

7 counterterrorism matters, discussing them with me, and there

8 was one other matter, one other time when he came in that I

9 remember in which he -- it was right around the time that the

10 public information had come to light about the Iranian •

11 initiative and on that occasion he told me, I think, that that

12 it was still possible to pursue the Iranian initiative and

13 that was kind of in passing, and then we talked about a couple

14 of other items, one of which I think was counterterrorism.

15 He was always interested in doing things on counterterrorism.

16 I think we have a notebook entry to that effect as to what

17 we talked about and the date.

18 Mr. Matthews is getting it for me now. I can tell

19 you specifically what it was.

20 Q Was this after the story broke?

21 A Yes, I believe it was.

22 Q The date was November 14, if that would refresh

23 your recollection.

24 A Okay .

25 Q Prior to that meeting with Mr. Ledeen, did you know

1 Mr. Ledeen was involved in the Iranian initiative?

2 A I don't know whether I did or not. I don't know

3 whether I did or not know that prior to that time. i don't

4 remember whether it was discussed at all in January of 1986

5 at the meetings that I attended. It is possible that I knew

6 about it, although I don't have a recollection that I did.

7 Yes, I have the notation that he talked about Iran.

8 Then I think there were two other matters that he talked with

9 me about, but I don't remember what they were.

10 Q J^hen he talked to you about Iran, on the 14th.,

11 do you recall being surprised that he was involved in it?

12 In other words, were you hearing that for the first

13 time or had you been aware that he was involved in the Iran

14 initiative?

15 A I don't know whether I had know of that at all. As
1g I say, I can't remember whether he was mentioned in January

17 of 1986 which was the period of time at which I was told about

18 the Iranian initiative, and here he says -- I had made the

19 note, "Mike claims to have worked with McFarlane in 1985."

20 It may be that I was hearing it for the first time.

21 He said, "Can still work with the original Iranian group with

22 which he initiated original contacts, Ghorbanifar, et al."

23 Then it says "channel one". ■

24 He may have been telling me that for the first time.

25 I just can't remember whether I knew that or not. I did

ySlfiLflSSli^

/Cnow he was a consultant to the NSC.

Q In August and September of 1985, and again in
November of 1985, the Israelis shipped first TOW missiles and
then Hawk missiles to Iran. During that period of time, that
is, any time in 1985, were you aware of those shipments?

A I have no recollection of being aware of it, no.

Q When is the first time you learned of those 1985
shipments?

A To the best of my recollection, the first time I
heard of an^ shipments in 1985 was after this became
public generally in November of 1986.

Q Do you recall from whom you heard about those
shipments?

A I think the first knowledge I have -- and I don't
have a distinct recollection of this, but it is my understandin
the first knowledge I had was from Charles Cooper in the
Office of Legal Counsel who had been looking into the
legal aspects of this matter after the story broke in early
November 1986.

Q Do you know from whom Mr. Cooper heard about the
shipments?

A I didn't know at that time and I have since learned
that he apparently learned about them from Mr. Thompson of
the NSC staff and perhaps others on the NSC staff. ^ I don't
know specifically whom.

24
25

iitS^SB(^£BT

1 Q Mr. Cooper testified publicly that he first learned

2 of the 1985 shipments when he received a chronology on

3 November 17 from the NSC.

4 Would that comport with your recollection?

5 A Well, I don't know. I don't think -- i have no

6 recollection of seeing the chronology myself, but that is

7 certainly consistent with him then telling me at some time

8 about that time that there had been arms shipments in 1985.
g I don't think we had time to go into many details. The

■JO first time* that I recall receiving any detailed information

11 about it was on the 20th of November in Mr. Poindexter's

12 office.

13 Q When do you recall first examining or first seeing

14 any chronology?

15 A The first I recall seeing a chronology was in
Mr. Poindexter's office on the afternoon of the 20th of

17 November.

^g Q The committee has heard testimony from

19 Stanley Sporkin and others that a finding was drafted

2Q regarding the Hawk shipment in November of 1985.

A Yes.

Q Had you been aware of that finding at the time.

23 let's say, in November "or "December of 1985?

A I don't recall ever having any information or
learning of that finding at that time, no.

Q So Judge Sporkin never discussed this finding with
you?

A -. Not that I recall.

Q General Meese, do you, as a routine, normally
see every finding that is drafted?

A We have tried to track that down because I
wouldn't know about a finding unless it was, in fact,
presented to me. And we have received findings over the last
two or two-and-a-half years maybe on^^^^^^^^^^Hoccasions,
and so I don'j: know whether I have received all findings or not
It is not necessarily something that comes to us on all
occasions.

That is really at the decision of the NSC staff as
to whether findings are presented here for review.

Q Are there any findings that you reviewed that did
not go through Mary Lawton's office?

In other words, through the regular procedures at the
Department of Justice?

A One finding was the finding that was prepared for
the President during early January of 1986, and so far as I
know, I was the only one in the Justice Department who was
involved in the review of that finding.

Q Was that the January 17 finding?

A I believe it was ultimately signed on the 17th of
January, yes.

Q And --

A Now, there was also conversation about a matter that
probably would have involved a finding, I understand. I
don't have a specific recollection, but Mr. North --
Colonel North did discuss with Mr. Jensen, then my Deputy,
and myself, I am advised by my notes and by others, on or
about the 6th of January, there was a discussion about the
Iranian initiative, about an Iranian initiative.

I don't know whether that involved a finding being
presented 'to us at that time or whether it was merely a'
memorandum, but there was a document that was presented to
us at that time.

Q When was that?

A That was the 6th of January. I do not have a
specific recollection of that, but I have been informed by
others that that, in fact — by Mr. Jensen that that took
place.

Q Have you spoken — has anyone else refreshed your
recollection on the January 6th incident other than
Mr. Jensen?

A Yes. My staff has shown me an entry in the
calendar for that day here in the office that there was a
meeting with Mr. North at 3:45, I believe it was, of that day.

Q If we cam take it back, I want to get into that,
but we sort of skipped some ground here.

1 Of the November 1985 finding, do you recall when "ou

2 first learned of it?

3 A The first I learned of a 1985 finding was either on

4 or after the 20th of November, 1986. It is possible it may

5 have been discussed -- although I don't have a specific

6 recollection, in my presence on the 20th, in the afternoon,

7 at Mr. Poindexter's office.

8 I am sure it was discussed with me in a meeting that

9 I had with Mr. Sporkin on Saturday, the 22nd of November, 1986.

10 Q Nbw, earlier, I asked you if there were any findings

11 that you had seen that had not gone through the regular

12 Department of Justice procedures. You mentioned the

13 January 17 finding.

14 Were there any others?

15 Have there been any others?

15 A Well, the one in November of — the finding you

■J7 referred to that had been apparently prepared in November of

18 1985 by Mr. Sporkin, which I later learned about, to the best

19 of my knowledge, that did not go through the Department of

20 Justice and I don't even know whether that was ever

21 presented to the President.

22 As far as other findings during the time that I

23 have been Attorney General, there may have been other findings

24 presented to the President which did not go through the

25 Department of Justice.

1 I don't know specifically of anywhere that occurred

2 but it is entirely possible.

3 Q All right. So aside from the Iran initiative

4 findings, then your testimony is that you have not seen any

5 findings that did not go through regular Department of

6 Justice procedures?

7 A Not that I can recall.

8 Q Did you ever ask the President at any time whether or

9 not he signed the November 1985 finding?

10 A No. I have not asked him.

11 Q Do you know whether he did?

12 A I do not know.

13 Q Prior then to January 6 of 1986, were you aware at

14 all of the Iranian initiative?

15 In other words, that negotiations had commenced
15 with elements of the Iranian Government and that we were

17 contemplating missile shipments or had discussed weapons

18 shipments of any type?

^9 A Not to the best of my recollection.

20 Q Now, you say you first becaune aware then on

21 January 6th of 1986?

22 . A I don't have a distinct recollection of becoming

23 aware on that day, but I believe that I did. I have a

24 distinct recollection of becoming aware on the 7th of January.

25 Q Can you tell us what you know or can recollect about

'GfraiSS£;Jim'

1 the 6th?

2 A Well, on the 6th, I know from records that I had a

3 meeti-ng with Colonel North, that is reflected on my calendar

4 that a meeting was set up. I know from talking with

5 Mr. Jensen, my Deputy, that he and I attended a meeting with

6 Colonel North in which Colonel North had some sort of a

7 document which described in general terms the Iranian

8 initiative, that we reviewed that.

9 This is — I learned this from Mr. Jensen. I don't

10 have a spe(^ific recollection of it and that is about all' I

11 know.

12 Q Did Judge Jensen discuss this with you after we

13 interviewed him in San Francisco?

14 A Yes. I called him to refresh my own recollection

15 of that and I have talked with him about it, yes. That is —
15 what I have related to you is what he has told me. As I

17 say, I have no specific recollection myself.

18 Q Now, when Oliver North ceune on the 6th and presented

19 this piece of paper — and you were not — correct me if I am

20 incorrect, I gather you are not sure if it was a finding or

21 simply a memorandum.

22 A That is right.

23 Q But did it describe the Iran initiative? That is,

24 the various goals of the initiative, including weapons,

25 possible weapons transfers?

m^BlSS^SST

A I don't recall because I don't recall anything
specifically about the document.

Q I guess what I am curious about is if this is the
first you learned of it, wouldn't it have caught your
attention that we were dealing with Iran and wouldn't it
have, you know, sparked some questions?

A I think probably the reason I can't recall more
specifically is that whatever I may have learned on that day
was eclipsed with the more complete knowledge I gained the
following day, the 7th, which is much more distinct in my
memory where we went through this for a period of almost an
hour in the President's office.

Q Well, in the 6th, did you have any knowledge that
Oliver North was going to come to your office?

A Well, yes. He had called, I think, to arrange a
meeting at 3:45.

Q Did you know what that was to be about?

A I don't know. I have no recollection that I knew
until he arrived.

Q Do you recall any conversations with Colonel North
when he was there in your office on the 6th?

A No. I don't have any recollection of the
conversation.

Q Do you have any recollection of the conversation
with Judge Jensen after Colonel North left?

1 A I don't have any recollection at this point, no.

2 Q When Colonel North showed you the document, was it

3 signed by anyone?

4 A I can't recall the document, so I couldn't tell you

5 whether it was signed by anyone or not.

6 Q I have here a document marked N-1323, which is our

7 document number. It is a -- I believe a six-page document.

8 May I have ]ust a moment?

9 I am going to see if this refreshes your

10 recollectibn. General Meese.

11 MR. LEON: General, it is a memorandum with a

12 proposed finding at the end that is dated January 6 and is

13 signed by the President. The memorandum is undated, as you

14 probably can see.

15 THE WITNESS: This does not refresh my recollection

16 at all. I just — this doesn't refresh my recollection at

17 all on that.

18 And I have no recollection at all of this specific

19 document.

20 MR. LEON: If I could. General, on the last page of

21 the finding, I believe — if you would take a look at that,

22 on that copy, there is some handwriting in the text of it.

23 Does that handwriting look familiar to you in any way?

24 THE WITNESS: No. I don't know whose handwriting

25 that is.

U|^tAggl5^T

1 MR. LEON: It is not yours; is it. General?

2 THE WITNESS: It is not mine. I can assure you

3 of that. That is the only thing I can be sure of.

4 BY MS. NAUGHTON:

5 Q Showing you document N-1248, and specifically

6 referring to N-1249, it is dated January 4, 1986. Does that

7 refresh your recollection?

8 A No. This does not refresh my recollection.

9 Q Turning then to the January 7th meeting, do you

10 recall was this a meeting specifically designed to discuss

11 this issue or was it an ad hoc situation?

12 A It appeared to me to be an ad hoc meeting. There

13 was a NSC meeting of some sort that I believe was held in the

14 Situation Room, but I am not absolutely positive, and after

15 that meeting, I was asked to join others in the Oval Office

16 with the President at which time the Iranian initiative was

17 discussed.

18 Th« others present, to the best of my recollection,

19 included the President, the Vice President, George Shultz,

20 John Poindexter, Bill Casey, Don Regan, Cap Weinberger, and

21 myself.

22 It is possible that there may have been one other

23 person there, an assistant of John Poindexter ' s, but I can't

24 recall for sure. ~ ' * " ~ ,

25 Q Did you take notes of this meeting?

- _ 24

1 A No, I don't believe that I did.

2 Q Did anyone there that you notice take notes?

3 A Not that I remember.

4 Q And can you recall who sort of did most of the

5 talking at the meeting and explaining what was going on?
5 A Yes. Let me just —

7 MR. MATTHEWS: Tab 2.

8 THE WITNESS: Tab 2. Here we are.

g I am just refreshing my recollection here.

10 1y recollection is that the persons that did most of

11 the talking were John Poindexter and Bill Casey. I believe

12 that John Poindexter raised it but Bill Casey also talked about

13 it.

14 BY MS. NAUGHTON:

15 Q General Meese, you are refreshing your recollection
1g with what document?

tj A I am refreshing this from a synopsis of my

Ig testimony before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence

ig and the House of Representative's Select Committee on

2Q Intelligence.

21 Q This was prepared by your staff?

22 A Right.

23 Q What did Admiral Poindexter say at the meeting that

24 y°^ ^^^ recall?

MS ■ A My recollection was that he outlined a variety of

'' goals. One was to establish contact with a more -- a moderate

2 a more moderate element within the Iranian Government, to be

3 able to influence events at a time when the Khomeini was

* no longer in control of that government, to bring an end to

5 the Iranian — to the Iran-Iraq war, to lessen the

6 participation of Iran in state-sponsored terrorism, and to

7 obtain our hostages, to seek the help of these moderate

8 elements in obtaining the release of our hostages being

9 held in Lebanon.

^0 This was also set in the background of the danger to

H the Middle East from the Soviet Union operating through or

12 perhaps actually utilizing in some way Iran.
''3 Q Was it discussed that weapons were shipped to

14 Iran by Israel?

15 A Yes. To the best of my recollection, it is that the

16 moderate Iranian elements wanted a show of good faith by the

17 United States and that this could be represented by our

18 providing a small quantity of weapons that could be used by

19 the Iranian military and that they, in turn, would show their

20 good faith by trying to use their efforts to help obtain the

21 release of our hostages.

22 Q What were your thoughts when you were hearing that

23 perhaps weapons would be shipped to Iran for this purpose?

24 A Well, I think my thoughts and the general discussion

25 was that this was a high-risk type of thing, but that the

^QSI^^I^T

quantity of weapons would be relatively small and this was
necessary In order to achieve the objectives of this
particular initiative.

Q At this meeting, did anyone raise the issue of the
Arms Export Control Act?

A I eun not sure. I don't have a specific recollection,

but it is entirely possible and I believe, but I am not

absolutely positive, I believe that this was discussed in the

context of a prior opinion that had been rendered by my

predecessor, Willi2ua French Smith, indicating that it was

possible for the President to transfer arms under the

National Security Act, rather than the Arms Export Control

Act, and I am almost positive that there was reference to that

I
memorandum and to this being an appropriate way of transferring

arms for the President.

Q Did Director Casey make that comment?

A I think it was Director Casey that talked — that
discussed that, yes. And I had a recollection of the —
Bill Smith opinion, because I had been on the National
Security Council when that opinion had been rendered in 1981
or 1982.

Q By the way, the National Secuirty Council subgroup
that — the NSPG on which you sit, do they review all findings?

A I don't believe so, no. I think some findings are
reviewed there, but I don't believe all of them.

MNCLfl4filE,T2

1 Q Again, is that up to the NSC as to whether --

2 A I think it is the NSC staff and perhaps the

3 Director of Central Intelligence as to what findings go through

4 that — the NSC or the NSPG.

5 Q Now, did Secretary Weinberger express any hesitancy

6 or question about the legal issues involved in arms transfers?

7 A I don't recall — I don't recall specifically

8 Mr. Weinberger raising issues about the legal aspects of it,

9 although it is possible that he did, and that may have been

10 what triggered Director Casey's mention of the National-

11 Security Act as being the vehicle.

12 Q Now, did anyone at that meeting mention the

13 prior 1985 shipments by Israel to Iran?

14 A Not to my recollection, no.

15 Q Did Director Casey mention that the CIA had been
1g involved with the transportation of the weapons in November

17 of 1985?

18 A Not that I recall.

19 Q When is the first that you learned of that?

20 A The first I learned of that, the CIA being

21 involved in any transportation of weapons, to the best of

22 ^y recollection, is in the meeting in John Poindexter's

23 office on the 20th of November, 1986.

24 Q When you learned of that, did you discuss that with

25 Director Casey?

A Well, at that time I didn't discuss it in a
separate discussion with him. Various people were
contributing to a chronology what they remembered of having
taken place at that time.

Q But at some point — I am not so concerned with

6 the time, but at some point did you asic Director Casey about

7 that involvement and if there was a finding and if he had done

8 it legally and properly?

9 A At some point, I learned — whether it was from

10 Mr. Casey Or Mr. Sporkin. My recollection now is that the

11 discussion generally went — and I don't know whether

12 Bill Casey was present, but it had to do, I think, with

13 Bill Casey not being in the country at the time this all

14 took place in November of 1985, and that the CIA — CIA's —

15 the initial information I received was that the CIA's only

16 participation was to ask for a — one of their proprietary

17 airlines to transport a cargo for Israel to Iran. And then

18 there was subsequent information about how much was known by

19 the pilots involved and by CIA people as to what the actual

20 contents of the cargo were.

21 The initial information we got was that it was

22 oil drilling parts. We later learned that it was — or

23 it was indicated that they were Hawk missiles or Hawk missile

24 parts and then more information was released and th^re was a

25 considerable <Iuestroi^ng av^ Jf'itfJtpCt^ people knew at what

»msr!jr°"*

yROEnSIMBT

1 time.

2 Q Well, did you at any time ask Director Casey if,

3 indeed, he knew in November of 1985, let's say from the

4 22nd through the 25th, that he knew that there were Hawk

5 missiles aboard the aircraft?

6 A I don't remember ever asking Director Casey that, no.

7 Q Do you recall him ever telling you that?

8 A I don't recall him ever telling me that, no. My

9 impression is that he did not know at the time and that he was

10 away, but I am not absolutely positive of that.

11 Q Do you know whether or not the President knew at

12 any time from November 18 through the 25th that there were

13 Hawk missiles being sent to Iran?

14 A I do not know.

15 Q Have you ever asked hira?

15 A I don't believe I have discussed that specifically

17 with the President. At least I don't recall discussing

18 it with the President.

19 Q Did anyone tell you that they had told the

20 President that?

21 A Not that I can recall, no.

22 Q Now, was there a discussion on January 7th regarding

23 the preparation of a finding for this initiative?

24 A I believe there was a discussion about the

25 preparation of a finding, yes, and that a finding was necessary

'yHanS^l^iCET

and that a finding would be prepared.

Q But was there a discussion of a document you had
seen the day before from Colonel North?

A I am not sure that the document the day before was
a finding, and I don't believe I saw any specific document
myself on the 7th.

Q Well, I guess —

A I don't recall seeing it.

Q On the 7th, was a discussion about a finding, a
prospective one, that is, a finding should be drafted or that
one had been drafted and was simply awaiting signature or
something?

A Well, there was a discussion edDOut a finding, and I
remember that the following week, I participated in the
specific drafting of a finding. Or at least in the specific
review of a finding that had been drafted actually by, I
think, Stanley Sporkin.

Q Did Stanley Sporkin mention to you that one had
been drafted before, either in November of 1985 or in — on
Jamuary 6th , on or about January 6th?

A Not that I recall, until I discussed this with him
in November of 1986.

Q The draft from which you were working then, I
gather from the period of maybe January 14th through the 17th
with Judge Sporkin, were there many changes made in the draft

he presented to you?

A No. I read the draft, to the best of my recollection.
I don't know that there were any changes made and most of our
attention was really drawn to reading and reviewing the
National Security Act in relation to that finding and more
specifically to the aspect of the notification of Congress
and there was a provision in the draft finding that we
looked at that said that Congress would not be notified under
501, I believe, is the section of the National Security
Act, until ordered by the President.

Q I want to get back to that, but by this time had
Secretary Weinberger checked his legal people on the issue of
the Arms Export Control Act? Was there some discussion of
that?

A I believe that he had, because I believe -- I think
that I recall Secretary Weinberger being present at
John Poindexter's office at some point where this was
discussed.

Q And what did he say?

A And I don't have a distinct or specific
recollection of the discussion, but my general recollection
is that he was satisfied that it could be done legally
through the National Security Act.

Q Had he seen the Smith opinion?

- f

A I don't know whether he had seen it or not, but

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I believe he knew of it and I believe actually he was in the
National Security Council meeting when Bill Smith had
discussed this opinion some years before.

Q General Meese, had you been aware of the 1985
shipments — in other words, had someone at the January 7th
meeting or subsequent meetings told you about them, and then
discussed with you the issue of retroactivity or that there
had been prior activity by the CIA, what would your advice
have been?

A ^ell, I don't know. That is a hypothetical question.

Q Let me ask it this way then. What is your opinion
of the viability of retroactivity, that is, a finding making
prior covert activities retroactive?

A Well, I would say that a finding after the fact of
something having been done by the President would be of
questionabl* legality and would certainly raise questions.
You would have to look at all the facts of a particular
situation, but it would certainly raise questions as to the
legality because the law says that something can be done by
an Intelligence agency — and we are assuming now this
was an intelligence agency that Is involved — something
can be done if the President makes a finding that it is in the
interests of national security.

I believe that is the way the law reads. So that
such a finding, it seems to me, would be a condition

SJNIUA^Sinim

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precedent to the activity going forward. Now, that is a very
general statement of the law.

Obviously that would be — could be modified by a
particular set of circumstances.

Q Did you ever discuss that question of retroactivity
with Judge Sporkin, either at the time or subsequently?

A Not in detail or as to legality. We discussed it
only in terms of Judge Sporkin telling me in the meeting that
I had with him on the 23rd or 22nd — the 22nd of November
that he hai prepared a finding in November in which he had
written it in a way that it would cover any activities of the
CIA that might have taken place during the period
immediately preceeding that. >;

Q You mentioned intelligence activity by an intelligenc i
agency, regarding the National Security Act and Hughes-Ryan.
Is it your opinion then that the NSC is or is not an
intelligenc* agency?

A I have not researched that specifically. It would
be my opinion that the NSC staff — certainly the NSC is not
an intelligence agency.

It is my opinion the NSC staff would not be
considered an intelligence agency within the general meaning

of that term.

Q If the staff were engaged in intelligence activities

would thei

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MR. MATTHEWS: Before we go too much further
along this line, I want to clarify to what extent we are going
to be" going into legal questions as opposed to factual
research?

Obviously, a lot of this stuff, we have
provided opinions done by the Department of Justice on these
issues and the Attorney General may not have been -- personally
may not have looked at them. j

These are off-the-cuff responses.

rkz WITNESS: Abstract.

MR. MATTHEWS: That doesn't really represent

i : ;

legal opinions.

MS. NAUGHTON: These are basically many of the
questions that were asked you at the Senate Intelligence
sessions. I am trying to cover the ground on the record for
our committees.

THE WITNESS: I don't recall these questions being
asked, but they may have been.
BY MS . NAUGHTON :
Q At any rate, I will re-ask ray question. If
National Security Council staff members are involved in
covert activities of an intelligence nature, would their
actions require a finding?

A That would depend upon a lot of circximstances that
in your question are hypothetical. I am not sure I can answer

ONCIUSSSE^

itt^^£!i&T

1 that specifically. I would say preliminarily that activities

2 of members of the National Security Staff probably would

3 not require a finding, that that would be the general

4 principle of law.

5 If, on the other hand, for example, they were

6 detailed to the CIA, which is an intelligence agency, then it

7 is possible a finding might be required. But it is hard to

8 answer hypothetical questions on something that is

9 rather specific as far as the law is concerned.

10 Q Alien you looked at the proposed finding by Judge

11 Sporkin, you stated you reviewed the National Security Act

12 regarding —

13 A We are talking now about when? The 16th of

14 January approximately?

15 Q Around that time.

18 Can you recall if you did any other research on
17 these questions?

13 A My b«st recollection is that I looked at the

19 National Security Act, read that very carefully, may have

20 looked at the citations appended to it, but I can't

21 remember specifically, and on that basis, agreed with Judge

22 Sporkin that delay in the notification of Congress was

23 appropriate for a limited period of time.

24 Q That is the only issue then that you focused any

25 research on; is that correct?

A Yes. I was already familiar with the Bill Smith
opinion, having gone through that discussion some years
earlier.

Q Did you involve anyone else from the Department of
Justice at this point?

A Not that I can recall, no.

Q Why was Judge Jensen present for the — at that time
Deputy Attorney General Jensen present on the 6th when
Oliver North brought that document?

A Vfell, because I had asked him to attend the meeting.
Normally, when we had anything that was coming over from the
National Security Council, I would have generally Judge
Jensen, then Deputy Attorney General Jensen or some other
member of the Department here so that if there was action that
needed to be taken on that item, they would follow up on the
action.

And I didn't know — I don't believe I knew what
Mr. North was coming over to talk about.

Q Did Judge Jensen have any other involvement in the
Iran initiative other than that one meeting?

A Not to the best of my knowledge.

Q So when you were reviewing the legal issues
surrounding the January 17 finding, you didn't go to OLC or
any other people in the Department of Justice to research
those issues; is that correct?

Lyacu&sLtrja-

uai^a^s^T

« A Mine was not an in-depth review. It was more of a

2 concurrence with the legal analysis done by — that had been

3 done by General Counsel Sporkin and in answer specifically

4 to your question, no, I did not go — I do not recall going

5 to anyone else.

g This was such a highly sensitive matter that it was

7 my belief at the time that no one else in the Government
A outside of that very limited number who had participated in
g the meeting, both the President's meeting and the
subsequent meeting, should be involved.

Q Why was it determined to delay notification to

•J2 Congress?

A The President was very concerned, as was
Admiral Poindexter and Director Casey of the obvious,
intense danger to our hostages and also to the members of the
Iranian Government who were involved in this initiative.

I remember specifically — I remember generally that
there was discussion, I believe, on the 7th about delaying
notification of Congress until our hostages were returned
and there was a concern to notify Congress as quickly as
possible thereafter.

I remember generally there was discussion about we
would notify Congress as soon as they were on our airplanes
and out of Lebanon. Or out of wherever we were getting them.
Q Was there any discussion at that time of delaying

UflCLASSIF^f>

notification because of possible political ramifications?

A No. I have no recollection of any such discussion.
The only recollection I have was that there was concern for the
safety, primarily, of the hostages and also, to some extent,
I believe, of the moderate members of the Iranian Government
with whom these discussions were being held, or the contacts
were being made. •. .• ,-..«..-

Q Are there any other findings of which you are
aware that congressional notification was either delayed or
eliminated? ^ :

A Not that I know of or that I can recall in this
Administration. I believe there were findings of that sort in
the prior Administration.

Q Are there any other findings of which you are aware
other than the November 1985 finding that make prior actions
retroactive?

A I don't know of any finding in 1985 that made prior
actions retroactive. I know one was drafted, but I don't
know if such a finding was ever made. I know of no findings
signed by the President at any time that made prior
actions retroactive — made the finding retroactive to
prior actions. , -

Q Were there any drafted that he didn't sign?

A I don't know of any that were drafted other than what
I heard Mr. Sporkin talking about relating to activities he

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was involved in in November of 1985 or thereabouts.

Q Is it your understanding for the record that the
Smith letter indicates that or does direct that Congress be
notified of that particular transaction?

A I would have to look at that to be sure, but I
believe that in that particular instance that notification of
Congress was contemplated in that — in the particular
finding he was referring to.

Q What was your understanding of how long this
initiative' would last in terms of the wBapons and the return of
the hostages?

A My best recollection is that I thought that this woulil
take place within 30 to 60 days because it appeared to be
something that was imminent and that would be accomplished
within a relatively short period of time.

Q Obviously, after 60 days had passed, not all of the
hostages were released. Was it ever discussed then by anyone
in the Administration that perhaps Congress should now be
notified?

A Not that I know of because I don't believe I
participated in any further discussions of this matter
particularly as to the aspects of notification of Congress
at any time until after it was publicly revealed in November

of 1986. - ,

Q Do you happen to know why after a reasonable amount

^f...-

)u happen to know why after a ]

j|IELASSlFgLD__

UttCLAS^Si^r

of time, the 60 days, or the 90 days, why Congress was not
notified?

A No. I do not. And to be very clear, the notificatic
was to occur as soon as the hostages were returned and I --
the impression I received was that that would occur within
30 to 60 days after the meeting in January of 1986.

Q One minor point, again. From your calendar, it
indicates a message on July 11, 1986, where Secretary Shultz
requests you meet with himself and Judge Sofaer and Mr. Hill
regarding a matter discussed at a Cabinet meeting.

There is no reference to it. Without dwelling on
it in the documents and so forth, do you recall what that
meeting was about?

A No, I don't.

Q Now, on October — around October 5th or so, the
C-123 carrying Eugene Hasenfus was shot down.

A What Is the date?

Q Around October 5th.

A Yes. _ ,,,-•

Q Was shot down. When did you hear about the
shoot-down? t '

A I don't have any recollection. I probably read
it in the paper or saw — I don't usually watch television,
so I doubt if I saw it on television. Probably read about it
in the paper at or about that time when it was publicly

»Mft| RQQK^rry

ilitetASiitl^T

1 revealed.

2 Q So you have no recollection of anyone in the

3 Administration calling you to tell you this had happened?

4 A Not that I recall.

5 Q Once you fovind out that it had happened, did you

6 do anything about it?

7 A Not that I recall, no.

8 Q Did you direct the FBI or Customs or any other agency

9 to investigate the matter?

10 A tlo. I have no recollection of doing that. I-

11 can't imagine why I would.

12 Q When did you first become aware of — let's start

13 first with the Customs investigation of Southern Air

14 Transport and the issue of the C-12 3 and so forth.

15 A I an not sure whether I became aware of a

18 Customs investigation, or if I did, it was probably only in

17 connection with — X believe I became aware of it when

18 Admiral Poindexter called me in regard to an investigation that

19 the FBI had and I believe Customs was mentioned at the same

20 time.

21 I think he told me there was a Customs investigation

22 and asked me to talk to Secretary Baker about that

23 investigation.

24 Q Did you talk to Secretary Baker?

25 A I mentioned it to Secretary Baker at a Cabinet

MWCJLASSiEEEL

yNfiUSSi^T

meeting, I believe, or at some meeting in the White House and
said I wanted to talk to him further about it, and then for
some reason, that was eclipsed by other events. I don't
believe we talked about it any further.

Q When you discussed it, first of all, was he aware
of the investigation?

A I don't remember whether he was or not. It was a
very brief discussion with him.

0 Can you tell us what the discussion was? what did
you say? 'what did he say? ^ \

A I can't recall the specific discussion. Z believe
it was to the effect that the National Security Council's
staff would like us to delay an investigation of which
Customs also had a part or had an investigation going for a
brief period of time.

But I am not even sure how much of that I actually
discussed with him. I wanted to talk to him about this when we
had more tlma.

Q So at that time you didn't specifically request a
delay, but simply to speak at another time.

A I think we indicated — I indicated that we —
that I wanted to discuss this with him and for some
reason we were interrupted. Maybe the start of the meeting
or something else. ,

Q Did he give you any indication that he would see

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that it was delayed for a period of time?

A I don't think we got to that point in the discussion
I think it was a matter that was to be continued at a
later time.

Q You can't recall what it was?

A I believe — I don't believe that there was any
further conversation with him on the subject. I have been
told by others that other contacts were made and that this
matter was taken care of as far as Customs was concerned by
persons otAer than myself.

Q Do you know who these persons were?

A I think Mr. Trott was involved in it, but I am not
positive.

Q Do you know if Colonel North made any calls?

A I don't know for sure whether he did or not. I
don't recall at least knowing that — whether ha did or not.
It is possible.

Q Did Colonel North talk to you about this investigatio

A Ha may have. I don't have a spacific recollection.
It is possible that ha did. I do know that it was
Admiral Poindaxter who made a call to me on the subject. I
do recall that conversation.

UNCLASSIFIED

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Q Did Admiral Poindexter, when he called, explain
to you that the investigation that had been done by the FBI
might reveal an Iran initiative which had not yet been
completed, in which Southern Air Transport was involved?

A I don't recall that. The impression that I got,
that I do recall, was more to the effect that people who
were involved in Southern Air Transport were needed for
something to do with the Iranian initiative or the hostages,
and that that is why a delay in the FBI — the FBI either
wanted to interview some people or wanted to get some
records. That is my impression; and that a delay was
needed because the people who were involved were needed
for something at that time relating to the Iranian initiative.
That is my recollection of the impression I got out of the
conversation. I don't recall the exact words.

Q Then from the period of time of, let's say, Januarv
20, 1986, until mid October, when you heard from Admiral
Poindexter, did you discuss, or hear of, or seek communication
regarding the Iranian initiative?

A There was one other instance that was some time
during the summer, when the Criminal Division had a case,
or where there was a criminal case involving an accusation
of arms smuggling to Iran, and I received from someone
in the department, I believe it was Steve Trott, but it may
not have been, it may have been Bill Weld, a request to find

45
out — apparently there was some claim being made that

this was authorized by the United States Government, a claim,

I might say, that was directly made in regard to these kinds

of cases. And so I, as a precaution, checked with John

Poindexter to be sure that this case that we had had no

relationship to the Iranian initiative. Was advised

by Poindexter that it did not. And reported that back, not in

regard to the Iranian initiative, but reported back that I

had checked with the NSC staff and that there was no

authorization by the United States Government that involved

this particular investigation.

Q Do you recall the name of the case?

A I don't recall the naune, no.

Q Was it an indicted case?

A I don't recall whether it was indicted or just an
investigation at that time.

Q Do you recall from what district it emanated?

A My best recollection, I believe, is that it came
fron New York. I think the Southern District of New York,
or the Eastern District of New York. I am not sure. I
think it was a New York case.

Q Was this the Evans case?

A I have heard it referred to since that time as
the Evans case. I don't believe I knew the name of the

case at that time.

ONCLASSIFED

' Q Do you recall, was Assistant Attorney General Weld
involved in bringing these messages back and forth?

A It is possible. I dor.'t recall specifically
now who it was, but I think it may have been Mr. Weld.
It would normally come through that channel.

Q Do you know whether or not there was any
declaration or affidavit or anything prepared for the
government to attest to as proof to the court that the
government wasn't involved?

A J I don't recall that notice, but it is entirely
possible.

Q Moving then along to around about October 17,
1986, the majority members of the House Judiciary Committee
wrote to request an i.iquiry to lead to an appointment of an
independent counsel regarding the crash of the C-123 and any
activity on the part of any government officials in supplying
the Nicaraguan Resistance.

You were aware of that request, were you not?

A Yes. I believe I received a copy of that request
and it was directed, if I remember correctly, to the
Criminal Division.

Q And in that request, it names Admiral Poindexter,
Oliver North, Director Casey, Vice President Bush, and others
as possible subjects for this pre-inquiry?

A I believe that is correct. I don't recall

5INilLfl5SmEli

Q But this request by the House Judiciary Committee
came to your attention when it was made; didn't it?

A My best recollection — and I would have
to check the document — is that it was a request from a
subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee headed by
Mr. Conyers. That is my best recollection. Let's check the
document.

Q Well, there were a couple of letters. I will with-
draw that question in the interest of time. Regardless
of who made the request, you were aware at the time it was
made that it had been made; is that correct?

A We get a request. You know, we get these requests
fairly frequently.

Q Sure.

A But I was aware that a request had been made. These
usually aire directed to the Criminal Division and so I
usually see them in passing.

1 do see a letter dated the 17th of October,
li86, that is signed by Mr. Conyers, and it is only —
it says that a majority representating the Democratic
Members of the House Committee on the Judiciary. I guess
the reason that I thought it was a subcommittee is it
was signed by Mr. Conyers rather than the committee chairman.

Q And was this — did you refer this matter to the
Public Integrity Section?

iiWCLASSSFEa.

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A I don't know whether it went in the Criminal
Division. The letter itself would normally go directly to
the Criminal Division. I would not specifically refer it
It would be done by the Executive Secretariat. We could
find out how that was done, if you need to. I would not
handle it myself.

Q But you were aware that it had come in?
A I would get an information copy of the letter.
Then the action copy would be referred, in all probability,
to the Criminal Division.

Q And did you get any urgent reports or daily
reports on the progress that the people in the Criminal
Division had made on the investigation?

A I may have. I don't recall them now. My
memory is being refreshed here by — or at least I am being
shown a document dated the 14th of November, 1986, which is
a — what appears to be a progress report on the independent
counsel request by members of the House Committee on the
Judiciary regarding aid to Nicaraguan rebels. It is a
memorandxim to me from Willisun Weld, I have a general
recollection of having received this.

Q Could I ask. you — I know that we have not
received a copy of that.

A I ajti sure you have.

MR. MATTHEWS: I think so.

copy of it.

^^jafiimifrntii

ilQfrtSeCRET

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You are certainly welcome

MS. NAUGHTON: Some time during the break, if you
could copy it?

BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q Did you discuss this particular inquiry with
anyone at the NSC or the white House?

would.

Not to my recollection, no. And I doubt if I

Did you ever discuss it with Director Casey?

Not that I recall.

Do you know whether or not anyone at the Department
of Justice believed anyone at the White House or the NSC
regarding this inquiry?

A I do not know whether they did or not.

Q Did the NSC or anyone at the White House request
any briefing on the status of this inquiry?

A Not that I can recall.

Q Now, during the period in the fall of 1985, and
a couple of times — once in '85 and, I believe, three times
in '86,'

I don't recall whether they were relatefl to the

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Iranian initiati

I would not have known any relationship, to the best of „y
recollection, to any Iranian initiative, because i don't
recall knowing of any Iranian i:

Q Do you recall receiving any conununications from
either Admiral Poindexter or Colonel North regarding!

A I don't recall now that I received any such
comrounicatlona .

Q Did you discussi
with Admiral Poindexter or ^oToneTljorthT

A I don't recall now whether I did or not. I
don't have any recollection of doing so.

Q Did anyone else within the — within main Justice
Itnow about the Iranian initiative other than Judge Jensen?

A Not

Up until November of 1986?

A Prior to November of 1986?

To the best of my knowledge and recollection, no.

Q Do you have a recollection of anyone at the FBI
becoming aware of the arms shipments?

A I don't have a specific recollection of that
occurring.

Q What about any other component of the Department
of Justice?

A Not that I can recall now. I have a vague
recollectjion that there was some question raised
at some time during 1986 about it, about whether certain
things were author^ed, but I don't have any — I can't
specifically recall now what it was.

Q Now the Iran story broke ots or about November 3
of 1986. There were beginning to be reports from the Mideast
press, and then picked up in the American press. Do you
recall how you were first — you first became aware this
was becoming public?

A Z don't recall how I first became aware. It
was presumably through the newspapers.

Q Did you do anything once you — once this began
to unravel? In other words, once this story was beginning
to break?

A Not that I can recall, although I think it
have been a subject of conversation generally among
of my staff An<^|Mfft JICOIB"M|

iiN¥PB<Sf?SII£T

51a

Q From November 3rd, until, let's say, the 20th,
did you assist in preparing any statements by the Administr;
tion regarding the arms shipments?

A Not that I recall. I know that there was at
least one occasion when there was a briefing on the subject
at an NSC or NSPG meeting in the White House.

0 At that meeting; do you recall when that was?

A I don't have a specific recollection, i think it
may be — let me see if I can find that.

,1 have a chronology here that indicates that .it
was probably the 10th of November.

Q Did you take notes at that meeting?

A Yes, I did. As a matter of fact, I believe
copies of my notes of that meeting have been supplied to
the committee.

Q At that meeting, were the 1985 shipments of TOWs
and HawJcs discussed?

A Z believe maybe they were. That may have been
the first tine I learned about the 19BS shipments.

Q Do you recall what was said about them and who
said it?

A I believe that the information was provided to me
to all of us who were in the meeting by Admiral Poindexter.
But I would have to see my notes in order to specifically
recall. And let me say that I believe that was trfe first

--„-?«i»J|H.

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time that I learned about it, which was even before Mr. Cooper
then provided the information to me the following week.

. Q Do you recall what Admiral Poindexter had to say
about the shipments, the 1985?

A I don't remember how much was specified in
terms of dates. I do remember that there were discussions
as to the quantity of TOW missiles that were provided, and I
believe what was described as Hawk parts. Hawk missile

parts were provided.

'^ ^ . . , I

Q J So he told you that it was Hawk missile parts.
A I believe so. I would have to see my notes.
Mr. Matthews is obtaining copies of my notes.

Q Was it

A Where I can answer you specifically — I am
referring now to my notes of a — what is described in my
notes as a National Security meeting on the 10th of November,
1986, at 11:30 a.m., in the Oval Office. ''

MR. LEON: How many pages are your notes, General?
THE WITNESS: My notes that I have here, is three
pages of notes. i "

MR. LEON; They are all handwritten, are they not?
THE WITNESS: They are all handwritten; right.
BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q Using those notes then to refresh your recollection-
A Right.

..,>.*.^.JA

Q so you recall Admiral Poindexter talking

about the 1985 shipments?

_ A I don't see anything here that talks about a date
as early as 1985. The only dates that I see here refer to
a 17th of January 1986 finding, and something that says the
first channel was continued until late summer, 1996, and a
McFarlane trip to Tehran in May of 1986.

Q If I can back up for a moment?

A Yes.

Q ,You also met with Admiral Poindexter at the
White House on, 1 believe, November 5th and 6th; do you
recall what that meeting was about?

A No, I don't.

Q Do you know if it was related to the Iran
initiative?

A I don't know for sure. It is possible that he
may have discussed with me that we wanted to have some
assistance in reviewing the law relating to this matter,
because I do know on the 10th of November, I asked Charles
Cooper, the Assistant Attorney General in charge of the
Office of Legal Counsel, to be prepared to look into it and
I believe told him either then or subsequently that he
would be receiving a call from Paul Thompson of John
Poindexter *s staff. So it is possible, although I don't
have a specific recollection, that Admiral Poindeiter said

iJIIOI fl?Q|JFJ£fl

j*i£tfe^i;®to

they would like some legal assistance in regard to the matter.

Q Do you recall telling Assistant Attorney General Ctoooer
limit the staffing to one lawyer?

A I told him -- I don't have a specific recollection,
but I have discussed this with him since. His recollection
is that I told him this is a very sensitive matter, which it
obviously was, and that he should limit his staff probably
to one other staff member. This is Mr. Cooper's recollection
and it is not inconsistent with what I am sure I probably
did at the time.

Q Did you tell Mr. Cooper about the prior finding,
your involvement in the prior finding in January of 1986?

A We had a very quick conversation, because it was
at a meeting, a management planning meeting that we had, I
think, somewhere off-site here, and it was a very brief
conversation. It was just kind of a heads-up warning
order to him that this would be coming, and that he would
probably b« contacted by someone from the NSC.

Q Now some tine

A I should say from the NSC staff.

Q Now at some time during the process, Mr. Cooper
prepared for you a book listing some of the staffers
involved?

A Yes.

Q Do you recall receiving that?

'jWMMCamT

A I have a recollection of receiving it. He has
refreshed my recollection since that time that he did do
that and that it was given to me.

Q Did you review the book?

A I am sure — I don't have a specific recollection.
I probably looked at it at the time, or looked briefly
through it, but had it available.

Q Mr. Cooper testified that at a certain point
he began to focus on the November '85 and August '85
shipments jregarding the legal issues that might be involved.
Do you recall when you began to focus on those issues as
possible legal problems?

A Probably — it is probable I could have focused
on them — and I don't have a specific recollection — it is
possible I could have focused on them during the week prior
to the 20th of November. I am sure that I did focus on
them probably at or after that general period of time, going
front the 20th of November through the 25th of November.
During most of that time, I was less concerned with the legal
problems, specifically, than I was certainly from the 21st,
on getting at the facts; but I think on the 20th, one of the
reasons I was at the White House on that day was to look at
any legal aspects that might b« coming up in the testimony
of Director Casey, and the briefing of Admiral Poindexter,
whether they specifically — whether the legal aspects —

HNCLflSS!!f"ill

'■^

i^tW&^f^"^

"I specifically related to things happening in 1985, i can't

2 remember .

3 ' Q You were aware by that time that there might be
^ problems with CIA involvement if there was a no finding

5 at the time?

6 A I don't believe I learned that until over the week-

7 end of the 21st through the 24th. .

8 Q So then what legal issues were you concerned about

9 when you went to the meeting on the 20th?

10 A Well, it was any legal issues that might be

11 involved. The ones I had particularly in mind had to do

12 with the National Security Act and the Arms Export Control

13 Act, the opinion of William French Smith, and the issues

14 relating to the notification of Congress.

15 Q From November 7, then, until the 20th, did you

16 discuss any of these legal issues with anyone other than

17 Mr. Cooper?

18 A Well, the specific discussion of legal issues,

19 I don't recall with anyone other than Mr. Cooper and

20 then only briefly. Obviously, the discussion of legal

21 issues as a general subject, I believe I discussed with

22 Admiral Poindexter when he requested the assistance, but only

23 in that context.

24 Q Did you tell Admiral Poindexter that there might

25 be a problem with the 1985 shipments?

?3Nni flssiE^Fa

U!IC4EAS£9£i!RgT

A I don't know at the time I talked with Admiral
Poindexter, that I knew about any 1985 shipments. I
don.'t recall whether I knew that or not. I do not recall
ever discussing that with Admiral Poindexter that there
might be a problem.

MR. LEON: You are referring to the discussion
with him prior to the 10th, are you not. General?

THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the only discussion
that I can speculate that I had with Admiral Poindexter on
it. And pven then, I don't have a distinct recollectipn
of that discussion.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q As to your discussion with Mr. Ledeen on November
14th, did you take notes of that meeting?

A Only the note that you have, which was a topic
heading, and a note that he claimed he had been connected
with McFarlane in 1985. I did not discuss that in any
great detail with Mr. Ledeen. when he mentioned it, I think
we went on to another subject because I didn't know how
much he was authorized to kjiow and so 1 didn't really
continue the discussion with him to any great extent.

Q Well, at this point, you had begun to do legal
research and find out about this?

A I hadn't. Mr. Cooper had.

Unclassified

You directed Mr. Cooper to do it. But you
didn't ask Mr. Ledeen anything about his involvement or
what had happened?

A I really didn't didn't pursue the discussion with
Mr. Ledeen at all. It was a very sensitive subject. I
didn't know how much he was entitled to know, so I just
didn't pursue it with him, other than what he said to me,
which I have already reflected.

Q You met with Mr. Gerson before the meeting with
Mr. Ledeea. Do you recall — was that in preparation
for the meeting with Mr. Ledeen?

A Not that I can recall. Mr. Gerson, I met with
on frequent occasions. He was at that time my Assistant
for National Security Affairs.

Q The records reflect a five-minute meeting with
Mr. Gerson before the meeting with Mr. Ledeen. Do you
recall if that was to brief you?

A I don't recall if that was related to Mr. Ledeen' s
visit or not. "

Q Now, there was apparently a National Security
Council meeting on November 18th, 1986, Do you recall
if the Iran initiative was discussed at that meeting?

A I do not recall whether it was or not. Let me
just — I don't recall whether it was or not.

Q Now, Mr. Cooper testified that the Presi'dent

SJWfli flSQiFfffn.

yiiiaA^£^R£T

had a press conference on the 19th of November and made certair

statements that didn't reflect what the chronologies have

reflected regarding third country involvement, and that

you had changed your travel plans to make the meeting on the

20th. Was that an accurate representation of what

happened?

A On the 19th, the President had a news conference.
I saw at least a portion of that news conference, i think
I heard part of it going home in the car and saw the rest
on television, but I am not positive. In the course of
that news conference, I learned that the President had
stated things about no third country being involved, I believe,
was the way he stated it, that led me to believe that he
had probably not been given accurate — an accurate briefing;
and I called Mr. Poindexter to discuss that. In the course
of that conversation, I believe, Mr, Poindexter told me
that there would b« a meeting the following day, Thursday,
to prepare for testimony that was going to be given later
in th« %«««k. And I think it was either at that time or the
next day that he asked me to participate in that meeting.
In any event, I determined that night that — I
was supposed to go to West Point on Thursday the 20th, and
that I would — I was going to have a tour and some briefings
at West Point during the day. I think also participate in
a class. •'

HMgl-flg^oeiL,

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uPltibi^iEcii^T

I made arrangements to defer my West Point
participation until the evening when I was the speaker at
the banquet there and delay my departure for West Point
until after a meeting — or until late afternoon on the
20th.

Q Why didn't you bring Mr. Cooper to the meeting?

A Because Mr. Cooper was the one who was doing the
legal research, the legal analysis relating to the whole
Iran initiative at my request, which we discussed on the
10th. He would be the person most knowledgeable on the
legal aspects that we would be discussing. :

Q Your records indicate you spoke to Mr. Casey that

morning before the meeting. Do you recall what you discussed?

A I don't recall what we discussed, no. Unless it
may have been we were going to meet that afternoon, something
relating to that. But I don't recall.

Q Did he tell you anything about his proposed
testimony at that time?

A I don't recall if ha did or not.

Q Mr. Cooper has already testified as to who was
at the — if I can call it a drafting session?

A I don't think it was a drafting session. My
understanding is it was a meeting to review the testimony
rather than a drafting session. '' ' ^

Q All right. We will refer to it then as the meeting

CiMiPLflscicaca-

to review the testimony on the 20th. He recalled that Mr.
Thompson, Mr. Poindexter, Mr. Casey, yourself, and Colonel
North were present. Do you recall anyone else present at
the meeting?

A I am not sure whether there was anyone else
present. There may have been. I don't recall. i think
there may have been another gentleman by the name of George i
Cave present, but I am not positive.
MR. LEON: a CIA gentleman?
'the WITNESS: Yes; I think so, but I am not positive
BY MS . NAUGHTON : .

Q Did you know Mr. Cave?

A Also ny recollection was that Colonel North came
in during the meeting rather than being there during the
whole meeting, but again I am not positive on that.

Q Did you know Mr. Cave from before?

A I don't believe I met him before. At least I
can't recall meeting him before, but it is possible that
I could have.

A I don't recall. As I say, I am not even sure he
was there, but I believe he was.

Q What I am getting at is how do you know it was
Mr, Cave if you hadn't been introduced and hadn't met him?

A I am 3]i^^ XfL^^ Hf^^W^fi-J^yi^* introduced to him

Wereyou introduced to hin?

"gmHjB^:

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at that time. I just can't recall.

■-" '. Do you know if he was there or not?

MR. LEON: There was testimony yesterday by
Colonel North that his recollection is that he was there.
THE WITNESS: It is my recollection, too, that
I believe he was there, but I am not absolutely positive.

MR. LEON: Mr. Cooper's chronology, which was an
exhibit to his testimony, I believe, indicates that he
thought Mr. Gates was there. Let me just double check

that.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. LEON: His chronology indicates Gates. However
I believe in his testimony, Mr. Cooper and — the best
evidence is his testimony, but my recollection is during
his testimony Mr. Cooper said he thought it was Gates, but
he wasn't sure. It might have been someone else, or

words to that effect.

THE WITNESS: I don't know. My best guess would
b« that it probably was Mr. Cave rather than Mr. Gates.
I don't think, at that time Mr. Gates had any part in this.
I think he was the Deputy Director of CIA for intelligence
rather than for operations. So I don't think he had any
part in this. But I am not positive. ■ "'

MR. LEON: Did you know Mr. Gates before that
day? .. - • ••■' , • ♦

ASSML,

'wN]^lfe|i3>g^(^lteT

THE WITNESS: I had met with Mr. Gates, I believe,
at the NSC meetings.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q Was this meeting also to prepare Admiral Poindexter
for his briefing?

A Well, I think at the meeting we learned, or
maybe I learned that before, that two things were going
to happen on Friday the 21st. One is that Mr. Casey was
going to testify before the — I think it is the House
Intelligence Committee and before the Senate Intelligence
Committee, and that Mr. Poindexter, since he was not as a
member of the White House staff in a position to testify,
was instead going to have a briefing for each of the
committees and/or some of their staff at the Executive
Office Building, I think.

Q Did you see a draft of the testimony before going
to the meeting?

A Not that I recall,

Q Did you takB any notes while at the meeting?

A I believe that at the meeting we were provided
copies of the testimony and I believe I took — I made
some interline notations on the basis of vrfiat was being
told to us at that time on a document that may have been
the testimony.

Q You don't recall taking separate pages- —

imms^m.

A I did not take separate notes, no. Not that I can
recall .

Q Do yoa recall at some point in the meeting the
insert being addressed and Colonel North proposing the change
from, "No one in the CIA found out there were Hawks on that
shipment in 1985" to "No one in the U.S. Government knew that
there were Hawks on the shipment"?

A Well, I don't have a specific recollection of that,
but I have looked — excuse me — I have looked at a copy
of a document that was given to me at that meeting, and I
see in ray handwriting such an interlineation. So I assume
that that happened at that time.

The interlineation is in your handwriting; isn't

it?

A Yes. Let's refer to it here.

MR. LEON: General, while your Deputy is looking

THE WITNESS: Here we are. This is a document
that says, "Subject, CIA airline involvement." And on that
document, which I think you have a copy of

MR. LEON; I would like to hand you what was
Mr. Cooper's Exhibit 6. It is part of the record already.

Just look at that to see if you can identify
any of the handwriting on that?

THE WITNESS: That appears to be the same document

I was just looking at. This is identified as CJC-6'. It is

. .1'

mi'XAmm^

3iJ0t)|b|iii^j^T

jm 23

an exhibit.

On this, I can identify some of the handwriting, yes.
I can identify my handwriting, in the third paragraph, putting
the words, "the Israelis," and my handwriting appears in the
6th paragraph, where I have written the word, "neither,"
and then the words "Israelis nor the Iranians knew."

Subsequently, in that paragraph, "no one in the
U.S. Government found," and then in the following
paragraph, the words, "by the Israelis." Then in the same
paragraph, the words, "another unrelated."

Those are the items there that are in my handwriting.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q General Meese, did you make those interlineations
on your own accord or was that a agreed upon by the group?
A I can't remember for sure, but I think that this
was generally what was agreed upon by the group. I think
that is the reason that I put it in there. I didn't know —
this must have been provided by someone else because I didn't
have any basis for putting that other than what somebody
else told me.

Q Did you propose any changes in the testimony that
you can recall?

A Not that I recall.

Q When the statement was made by Colonel North that
he wanted to cha;\qe the language to read "no one in the U.S.

:hange the language to rea

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Government knew it was Hawks until January of 1986," did
anybody in the room disagree with that?
- A Not that I can remember.

Q Did you know that that was not true?

A No.

Q Do you know whether Director Casey knew whether
that was not true?

A No.

Q Did he ever indicate to you at a later time that
he knew tjiat was not true?

A No .

Q Do you recall when you left the meeting, did you
go to the Department of Justice, back to Justice, or straight
to West Point?

A My best recollection is that I went directly
to Andrews Air Force Base where I flew to West Point.

MR. MATTHEWS: That should be on the chronology.
THE WITNESS: Yes. Apparently — I believe I
left for Andrews to go to West Point about 3:40 in the after-
noon, is my best recollection .
BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q Did you discuss this subject, Mr. Casey's testimony
about the Iran arms sales, with anyone during that period
of time? That is after you left the meeting until you
spoke with Mr. Cooper later that night on the telephone?

liMDCffSSe(&:fl£T

Q I don't specifically recall, but I understand that
I had a telephone conversation with my deputy, Arnold
Burns, who relayed to me a conversation he had had with Abraha
Sofaer, the legal adviser at the State Department . Again,
I don't have a specific recollection, but the general thing
was that Mr. Sofaer was concerned about Mr. Casey's proposed
testimony; and to the best of my recollection, which is very
indistinct, but piecing this together from what others have
said, I indicated — thinking that it was what we had just
been going over and in which corrections had been made, I
advised Mr. Burns that this matter was being taken care of
because we just had been going through putting together what
was, to the best of my knowledge at that time, an accurate
description of what had occurred,

Q Do you recall where you were when you spoke to Mr.
Burns?

A I don't recall, and it is probably that I was
on the car phone in my car in route to Andrews, but I am not
absolutely sure.

Q Was this a secure phone or unsecure?

A It was not a secure phone. That is why my
belief is that we had a very — you might say, elliptical
discussion rather than being too specific in the course
of the discussion.

Q So

;jH£LAs^e£9

CKHET

A In any event, I know it was not a secure phone.

Q Mr. Burns told you that there was a discrepancy

in Mr. Casey's testimony?

A I can't remember the precise wording of the
conversation. I have a general recollection that there
was such a conversation. I can't remember specifically
what he said. But it was more to the nature that there
were concerns over possible inconsistencies or inaccuracies
in the proposed testimony of Mr. Casey, which I assumed to
be the same document that I had seen and which had already
undergone some changes and corrections to make it consistent
with what other people knew.

Q Did you ask him to elaborate on what those were?

A No. No. Because I assumed that it was what we
had just been working on and indicated that that was
already being taken care of.

Q Did you ask him to go get more facts from Judge
Sofaer? '■■ :, >'

A No, I am sure I didn't, particularly since we
were on an unsecure phone. Again, I assumed this was the
same matter we had just been working on over in Mr.
Poindexter's office.

Q Were you aware that Judge Sofaer had tried to reach
you first?

A I don't know whether Mr. Burns told me that on

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the phone or not. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Q Did you ever make any attempt to contact Judge
Sofaer regarding, this matter any time the 20th or 21st?
A Not that I recall, no.

MR. POLGAR: One question. Excuse me.
General Meese, was this document that you just
looked at, CJC-6, was that the. only document handed out
at the meeting?

THE WITHESS: No. I also — I do have a distinct
recollection there was also, I think, a two-page chrondlogical
summary with dates and things occurring that covered 1985 and
1986. That listed things like arras shipments and hostages
being released and so on.
BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q General Meese, what was your impression then when
you left for West Point regarding what Mr. Casey was going
to tell the Intelligence Committees specifically about the

1985 shipments?

A As best as I recall, it was the matters that were
contained in that document, CJC-6, which we have just referred

to.

Q So it was your understanding he was going to tell
Congress that no one in the U.S. Government knew there were
Hawks on the shipment until January of 1986?

A well, I can't specifically recall that that was
What my impresiUM^I .ftftSJf^jflU?^!!'*^^^^" from

jm 28

the document, it was to the effect that what was portrayed
in that document was an accurate portrayal of what had
occurred. And that that is what he would be testifying
to.

Q When you got the message from Mr. Burns that
Judge Sofaer had called, did Mr. Burns tell you that Judge
Sofaer said that the State Department had a note which
indicated that at least Secretary of State Shultz disputed
that point? v,. ,; - j- ^

A f I don't recall him telling me that. I doubt if
he went into that much detail; and since that time, Mr. Burns
has told me that Mr. Sofaer has told him that he didn't say
anything to him about having notes. ^ . .

Q Mr, Burns and Mr. Sofaer subsequently discussed it?

A Apparently, yes. And that Mr. Sofaer — Mr. Burns
told me that since that time, Mr. Sofaer has advised him
that in the coversation that they had in November of 1986,
Mr. Sofaer did not mention having any notes.

Q Did you speak with Director Casey on the 20th of
November after the meeting, any time after the meeting?

A Not that I recall.

Q What about anyone from the NSC? Now this is
prior to when Mr. Cooper informs you of the problem?

A I don't recall talking to anyone from the NSC,

NSC staff you are asking about? .' _

UNCLAS.^ie£D

r. < ^ ~k

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Do you recall when you first heard from Mr.

Q Yes.

What about anyone from the White House?
A I don't recall talking to anyone from the white
House.
Q
Cooper?

A I heard from Mr. Cooper on the evening of the 20th
of November. I was at West Point. I was in the middle
of a dinner and a reception following the dinner, my best
recollection is, and they were trying to get the secure phone
to work. Finally, around — some time around 10 o'clock,
perhaps, they finally got the secure phone to work and I then
talked with Mr. Cooper, and I think we had two — at least
one and probably two different conversations that evening
on the secure phone.

Q What did he tell you the problem was?
A And he said -- now, as best I can recall — and
this is perhaps not exactly — but it was to the effect
that the State Department had additional information about
Hawk shipments or at least about arms shipments in November
of 1985, which appeared to be inconsistent with the
testimony that Mr. Casey was going to give, and that this
information had been apparently — had been provided to
George Shultz while he was at Geneva.

Q Did he tell you that Mr. McFarlane told.' Secretary

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Shultz? "

Q I don't recall whether he went into that much
detail or not. But at least that Mr. Shultz had that
information. r

Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you there was a note or
documentation to that effect? j

A I think he did, but I aun not positive. Again,
I can't recall the specifics of the discussion,

Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you that Judge Sofaer had
threatene(^ to — or said that he would have to resign if
this discrepancy was not alleviated?

A I can't recall that he did.

Q Did he tell you that Mr. Amacost, who was set
to testify with. Mr. Casey the next day, would have to dispute
what Mr. Casey said if that is what was testified to?

A I can't recall specifically that he did, but it is
possible.

Q In your mind then, how did that differ from what
Mr. Bums had told you earlier? In other words, I gather
you made plans to return to Washington as soon as possible?

A Oh, yea. Well, it differed — it was much — a
whole new area of information that was beyond what I had
assumed Mr, Burns was telling me, because it went beyond
the corrections that we had made in the testimony, the
memorandum in t4r. Poindexter's office. .'

UNJJiflSSlfiEfL

ON0tiSSS£<IBET

Q Did you call Director Casey and find out what
the story was?

A I don't remember whether I called. I didn't
call him that night. I may have called him the next
morning, but I am not sure.

Q Well

A I don't think so, though. I don't believe so.
I think by the time I got back here, it was probably after
he had already gone to the testimony. I don't recall anyway
talking with Mr. Casey on the morning of the 21st of
November.

Q The first time then that you did get a chance to
speak to him, did you discuss the '95 shipment and what
— in other words, did you try to resolve it in your own mind
what happened?

A Well, at that point, I don't remember discussing —
talking with .Mr, Casey at all on the morning of the 21st of
November. I did talk to Mr. Cooper on that morning and
somehow I arranged to meet with the President at 11:30
on that day; and whether that was through. Mr. Poindexter or
through Mr. Regan, I don't know. But I had reached the
conclusion by that time that what appeared to me was that
different people had different pieces of this story. Because
it was such a highly compartmentalized operation, it was my
impression, at that time, that different people knew different

that time, that different

(UNCLASSIFIED

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things and they didn't all match up because of the
fact that no one had tried to put a coherent story together
and that it — therefore, I went to see the President tc
say that in order to be sure we were presenting an accurate
picture to the Congress, it was necessary to have someone
review all of the facts and what everybody knew, and put it
together so that there would be a coherent and accurate
presentation to the Congress and to the public.

Q Did you speak to anyone that night on the 2Qth,
from the United States Government, other than Mr. Cooper?

A Well, I was speaking to a bunch of people from the
United States Government at West Point. But as far as here
in Washington, nobody that I recall. I may have had to talk
to somebody about making arrangements to come back the next
day, but I am not sure of that.

Q Did you take any steps to make sure that Mr.
Casey's testimony was changed if inaccurate or was —
or this point was brought up and discussed, and deleted,
if necessary?

A I recall generally telling Mr. Cooper to do that,
and he may have already done that, or was in contact with him
that night. He was going to be talking, I think, with
Mr. Dougherty who was then the General Counsel at CIA,
if I remember correctly. He was going to be working on that,
and I indicated that if there were any problems, l>e should

UNCiissifm..

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5
6

get in touch with me because we wanted to be sure that
Mr. Casey's testimony was accurate the next day.
Q Do you recall when you left West Point?
A I think I left West Point some time around 6:30
or so in the morning.

Q And you arrived at the Department of Justice when?
A I can't recall exactly. I think it was around
9: 30, or somewhere along that line.

MR. MATTHEWS: There is a notation on the
chronology there.

THE WITNESS: Let's see. Here it is.
I arrived here, apparently, some time around
9 o'clock, because I have a notation here that my — I met
with Mr. Burns, Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Richardson
at 9:15 a.m., for one and half hours. So I was here
apparently by 9 o'clock.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q Did you attend the regular staff meeting that

morning?

A No. I believe I arrived here after the staff
meeting was over. That would be indicated by this time.

Q DO you recall, let's say, up through November 21st,
whether or not there was any discussion at staff meetings
regarding the arms sales to Iran?

A I don't recall any such discussions. It is

jm 34

entirely possible that there was.

Q Then taking it then, my same question, through,
let's say, November 24, which is the following Monday, was
there any discussion of involving the Criminal Division in
an investigation of the Iranian arms sales?

A Are you talking now about a staff meeting or at
any time?

Q At any point in discussion within the Department
of Justice,

A Well, on the 21st, there may have been discussion
about involving the Criminal Division, although I don't
have a specific recollection of it. There was nothing at
that time that appeared to be any criminal activity or any
basis for it, and I remember that specifically, because I
did have a discussion on the 21st of November with Director
Webster in which we both agreed that there would be no
basis for calling in the FBI — calling in the FBI to assist
in the factual review that the President asked me to under-
take, would not justify calling in the FBI to assist, because
this was essentially a governmental administrative matter,
and was not a criminal matter.

Q If I can back up one step before the Webster
conversation. When you say there was discussion about
whether or not this should be done by the Criminal Division,

JWcussif^ai

yN0i:fiSSgd[fi£T

jm 35

1 A No. I don't recall any such discussion. I know

2 there was discussion as to whether the — it was a criminal

3 matter in the context of the FBI. I don't recall whether

4 there was a similar discussion as to whether there was —

5 whether there was any question about the Criminal Division

6 being involved.

7 Q Was there ever any discussion throughout the

8 weekend by anyone in the Criminal Division that perhaps

9 they should be involved in correcting the facts?

10 A ^ Not that I can recall, no. Not that I recall,

11 Q As to

12 A I don't believe I talked to anyone over the week-

13 end in the Criminal Division that I can recall.

14 Q Well, my question included through the 24th, that

15 is through Monday, because Tuesday is your press conference.
ts A Yes. I don't know that I talked with anyone in the
17 Criminal Division on the 24th. I don't recall whether

']g I was at th« staff meeting on the 24th or not. But in any

^g event, I don't recall any such discussion. I did have a

2Q discussion about criminal aspects on the afternoon of the

21 21st, at which time I asked Mr. Cooper to review the

22 facts as we had them, and to do a preliminary review to

23 determine whether or not there was anything that would

24 justify a criminal inquiry.

25 MR. LEON: Is that the 24th., General? '

(^.Ni^amiii^

iiiVi^^Sje^T

THE WITNESS: 24th, yes. c f

MR. LEON: 24th?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. LEON: If I may ask one

THE WITNESS: Let's just check here now. Yes. i
did — this is interesting. I did meet with members of the
Criminal Division or at least with Bill Weld and Steve
Trott at 5:30 on the 24th on another matter, but not anything
related to this.

MS. NAUGHTON: Okay.

}

MR, LEON: I just wanted to clarify one other point
for the record.

That call with Judge Webster on Friday the 21st7

MR. WITNESS: Yes, I met with — I believe I
met with Judge Webster on that day,

MR. LEON: Would that have been before or after yoa
saw the President?

THE WITNESS : That would have been after the
President. I talked with him about what I was doing. He
specifically discussed whether it would be proper to bring
in the FBI, We both agreed that it would not. What I
had in mind then was particularly how other Presidents had
been critizlzed for using the FBI in matters that were not
criminal matters, I think it was President Kennedy in the
steel Industry matter and other things like that,'

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-.. BY MS, NAUGHTON: .
.;. Q What exactly did you tell Director Webster?

A I told — well, I can't recall the exact conversatio
but I indicated the President had asked me to do a factual
review of the matters pertaining to the Iran initiative and
because there were different people who had different bits
of information and that we wanted to try to put it together
into a coherent version of the whole thing.

Q Did you explain to hlin the discrepancies in Casey's
testimony? '

A I don't think I went into specific details about
it, other than what I mentioned, that different people had
remembered different parts of it. >.

Q Do you know whether or not he was aware that Mr.
Casey was testifying that day?

A I don't know vrtiether he was or not, I am sure I
probably mentioned that. Or that he knew of it. It was
generally known. There was quite a bit of publicty
about it.

Q When Mr, Cooper came back, he testified he went
to the CIA that morning as you were getting back from
West Point?

A Yes.

Q When he came back and you had your meeting at or
about 9:15, did he mention he had learned from Mri Dougherty

*\.

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osoa:

that the CIA pilot — the pilot for the CIA proprietary
knew that he had military equipment aboard the plane in
November of 1985?

A I don't recall that he did, but he may well have.

Q What did Mr. — after Director Casey testified
in the morning, you met with Mr. Bolton and others later
that day, and Mr. Bolton briefed you on what Mr. Casey had
testified to? -^ »

A That is correct.

Q What did Mr. Bolton tell you Mr. Casey had said
about the November Hawk shipment?

A I can't recall now what he told me about it.

Q Okay .

In your mind, though, in terns of what he told you,
did that alert you to any problem, or did It ease any
concerns you had?

A I can't recall that it had any effect one way or
the other. I do note that I met with him apparently that
afternoon about 2:15. -^ • ■

Q If Z can skip back to your meeting with the
President, who else was present when you briefed the President
on this?

A At that meeting was Mr. Poindexter, Don Regan,
the President, and myself. That is all that I can recall.

Q Did you explain the Shultz version of events,

what Mr. Cooper

siimasiEim

^'Npo^i^^didET

A I may have referred to it, but it was mainly to say
that different people had different information concerning
what had happened in November and that we really didn't have
a coherent picture or a complete overview of what had taken
place there, and I mentioned to the President, I believe,
that because this had been so compartmentalized, that NSC
staff had done some things, CIA had done some things, I
believe I mentioned the Department of the Army had done
some things, that some of it was known to the State Department
because of what had happened in Geneva, that as a result,
we had a lot of people with, different parts of the puzzle
and that it was necessary to get an overview so that he,
the President, would know all the things that had happened,
and also that we could be sure we were providing an accurate
picture to the Congress. That was my main concern, and
also, for example, to the public. ^;.

Q Did you suggest then that you be delegated to
gather these facts?

A I don't remember whether I suggested it or whether
he suggested it. In any event, it developed that I did.
I may have said I would be willing to do this if that is
what he wanted to do.

Q Do you recall why you did this as opposed to Mr.
Regan or the — someone at the White House gathering these

facts?

ONCOS^ECm

i^aroA^iqiliT

A No. I think that it came up that I should do it.
And as I say, I may have said I would be glad to do it if
he wanted me to, or have somebody else do it,

Q Was there any discussion — Colonel North
indicated in his testimony yesterday that you were doing
this not as Attorney General, but as, "Friend of the
President."

Did you see — it may not be a fair question,
but in your mind were you acting as Attorney General during

this inquiry or as counselor to the President?

J
A Well, I don't know what I specifically thought

about what my role was. Certainly I was — as the principal

legal adviser to the President, I felt an obligation to be

sure that any testimony that was given was accurate, and

that was certainly the principal motivation. So I

would say that probably if you had to pick a role, that I

was acting as the legal adviser to the President.

Q Did you consult with Mr.Wallison about this?

A No.

Q Now Admiral Poindexter was present at that
meeting with the President?

A Yes.

Q Did you discuss with the President then ejcactly
how you would go about that? Or did you leave the details

to a later time?

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A Well, I told the President that I thought the best
way to go about it was to talk with all of the various
individuals who might have information and to then present
an outline of what had occurred i and he asked me to do it, to
see if I could get this accomplished by 2 o'clock on Monday,
because at that time, I believe, there was an NSC or NSPG
meeting scheduled to discuss the Iran situation.

Q Did you meet after the meeting with the President —
did you meet with other people at the White House, or the
seune people?

A My records show — or a chronology prepared by
my office shows that I had lunch that noon with Mr. Reynolds,
Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Richardson; that I met with Judge Webster
at 1:45, I believe on another topic; and that I met with
Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, Mr. Bolton, and Mr. Richardson at
2:15, and also probably Mr. Eastland at that time, that
I called Mr. McFarlane at 2:28, and that I met with Mr.
McFarlan« at 3:3Q that afternoon.

Q Getting back to after you met with the President,
and that meeting, I take it, occurred around 11 o'clock in
the morning?

A I believe it was 11:30.
Q Do you recall how long it took^?

A I think it was probably 15 or 2Q minutes, probably
as much as a half _ hour ,_^ no t^n^raor^than that, I don't believe

yiij)|8Si^jyi^T

jm 42

Q Where did you go right after -- was this in the
Oval Office?

A Yes.

Q Where did you go right after that?

A I may have talked with Mr. Poindexter, although
I don't recall that, or Mr. Regan walking down the hall,
but I believe I came back to the Department of Justice.

Q Was there a discussion at that time with Admiral
Poindexter and Mr. Regan about sending a team over from the
department to review NSC documents?

A No. No. I think I talked with Admiral Poindexter
in the day on that, because the first thing I wanted to do
was develop a plan for what we were going to do, and I had
not done that while I was at the White House.

Q Did you tell Admiral Poindexter that it was your
intention to interview people about this?

A Well, I think that it was certainly implicit, if
not explicit, in what we discussed with the President, that
I would talk with various people who might have information, ,
yes.

Q Did you tell Admiral Poindexter — now this is
at least 11:30 — I guess about 12 o'clock, did you tell
him that — did you give him any instructions? In other
words, to have his people get their documents together
or that you would be interviewing his people, or ^et

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their schedules cleared?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you recall — did you speak to Oliver North
any time on Friday the 21st of November?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did you communicate in writing with him at any
time?

A Not that I recall. I doubt if I communicated
in writing with him.

Q Did he call you at any time on the 21st?

A Not that I recall.

Q when you did call, if we can skip ahead, to Admiral
Poindexter, some time around 3 o'clock, I believe, that after-
noon, is that when you told him to get the documents ready,
or that they would be reviewed?

A To the best of my recollection — and this is all
fairly hazy about the specifics — but in the planning
meeting that I had with Mr. Richardson, Mr. Cooper, Mr.
Reynolds, I made a list of the different people that I
wanted to talk to, either then, or during the course of
the early afternoon; and then I also made a list of the kinds
of things we needed to do. And one of the things that in
order to try to piece things together a coherent account
was to look at any documents that might help in that regard.
So in the course of the afternoon — and I am not

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sure exactly what time — I do know that I apparently made
a call to Mr. Poindexter at 2:58 p.m., on the secure line.
So it is entirely possible that it was at that point that I
said that we would be sending some people over to review
documents, to assist in the fact finding on the following
day, and probably in that conversation I asked him for a point
of contact to assist with that, because I know he did assign
Commander Thompson, Paul Thompson, to that task.

Q Did you distinguish which records you wanted to
see?

A No. I think we talked about seeing documents
relating to the Iran initiative.

Q You didn't say you wanted to see McFarlane's
documents. North's documents?

A No. We wanted to see any documents there that they
thought might be helpful.

Q At that point, were you aware of what is now known
as PROF messages?

A No. As a matter of fact, I don't know I was
a%rare of that until I heard it in the recent hearings. But
I certainly was not aware of them at that time. Or at least
I don't recall being atnire of them.

Q Did Admiral Poindexter have any questions for you
at that point?

A Not that I recall.

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-' Q Did he say that he had already alerted his staff
to the possibility that you would be making this inquiry?
. . -s - A I don't recall whether he did or not.
'r Q You mentioned that around 12:45 you met with Mr.

Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Richardson?

A Sometime — my notes — the chronology that was
prepared said I had lunch with them. Yes. It says,
had lunch with them. It doesn't say a specific time.
Sometime, I would say, between 12 and 1, we began and I note
that I mett with Judge Webster at 1:45. So it was some .time
between 12 and 1:45 that we had lunch.

Q And why did you select those individuals to help
you in this investigation or in this inquiry?

A Well, I selected Mr. Cooper because he was the
head of the Office of Legal Counsel which provides the legal
advice on National Security matters. I selected Mr. Reyonlds
because at that time I had asked him to coordinate national
security natters generally within the Depatment of Justice,
the various components, and we were in the process then of
setting up kind of a coordination group, or doing some
research at least on doing that. So he was the one who had
that responsibility. And then normally, I would have assigned
my counselor. Ken Cribb, as the fourth one and he was on
vacation at the time. So I assigned his assistant, John

Richardson.

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Q It seems, from what Mr. Cooper has told u*, that
they had quite a large task at hand. Did you ever, during
that — during tha* whole weekend, consider bringing more
attorneys in to help them review documents or interview
witnesses? "...

A I don't recall it. I am sure if we had needed
it, I would have at the time, but I don't recall either
considering it or feeling the need to do that.

Q Did they ever ask for assistance?

A Not that I recall.

Q Do you know whether or not any of these attorneys
have had any criminal investigative or trial experience?

A well, Mr. Reynolds has had an extensive trial
practice. He was primarily in civil work. Mr. Cooper,
I do not believe has had any major criminal experience,
and I know Mr. Richardson has not. And, for example, at
the time there was — I was not looking for people with
criminal experience. 1 was looking basically for people with
national security experience, or general competence,
as in the case of Mr. Richardson.

Q Did you consider then, perhaps, bringing in Mary Lawto'
or someone from that division of the Department of Justice,
who works every with^^^^^^^^^^^^H

A No. NO, I didn't. Because I was looking more
at people who were concerned with national security policy

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rather than intelligence policy.

Q Why did you brief Director Webster on this on
Friday? '' -

A My best recollection is he was in hereon another
matter, but it was just a matter really to discuss with him,
as a member of our management team, the whole subject of
whether we should bring in the FBI or not. And as I say,
my recollection was he was here on something else, but he
may have come over specifically, but I would — l just wanted
to discuss, with hira at least the possibility — the reason
I brought it up with him was to discuss the possibity of
whether it would be appropriate to bring in the FBI which
would be another resource for conducting this inquiry.

Q Did you speak to Director Webster after that on
Friday the 21st? • -

A Well, ray records — the records that have been
constructed here show that he called at 6:09 p.m.. And
I can't recall what that conversation was about.

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«^NIX)Po£g^fi£T

Q You say you can't recall what you discussed.

A In the later conversation, no, I don't recall.

Q Might you have discussed the inquiry and the

Iranian subject? In other words, would you have recalled
that kind of discussion as opposed to some other subject
matter? ', ■•

A No. I just don't have any recollection at all

of what we discussed at that time.

Q Has he ever reminded you of that since?

A No. Not that I recall. We haven't discussed it

since.

Q If we can jump ahead, as long as we are on
Director Webster. After your press conference on the 2 5th
when he came over to the Departnvent of Justice, did he
express to you any concern or displeasure at not havinq
been involved in the weekend inquiry?

A No, not that I recall. -. r

Quite the contrary. My- recollection, and certainl
we have had discussions since, and they were clear that he
has always felt that we both concurred that it would not
have been appropriate to bring the FBI in based on what
we knew on the 21st.

Q At or aUbout 2:25 or so that afternoon —

A Which afternoon?

Q Friday afternoon, the 21st. *

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Yes.

Q Mr. Bolton briefed you on Mr. Casey's testimony
and you had a meeting with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Reynolds and
Mr. Richardson?'

A My notes show I met with all of them, including
Mr. Bolton, at 2:15.

Q Was there any discussion during that meeting of
the possibility that some of the TOWs may have been
diverted to the contras in Nicaragua?

Not that I recall.

Q Was there any discussion of Nicaragua at all
during that meeting?

A No. Not that I recall.

Q When you called Mr. McFarlane, do you recall
where he was when you spoke with him?

A I don't recall where he was and I'm not sure I
would have known because my secretary would have tracked
him down wherever he was.

Q Do you recall any particular difficulty in getting
hold o£ him?

A There may have been difficulty. I am not sure.
I have a vague recollection of that, but I can't be precise.

Q When you told him what your task was, did it
seem to you as though he was hearing this for the first
time or had he been made aware of the fact that you were

uHcy^^p

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going to be inquirinq?

A I don't know and I don't have any reason to
believe that he had been aware. My impression now is
that this was the first he'd heard of it, but I can't be
sure. ■ - -

Q As to the--

A My notes show that I called Mr. McFarlane at
2:28, according to the records that have been constructed
here .

Q Did you ask him to bring any documents with him?

A No. I just asked him if he would come in.
I think we had decided over lunch that that would be the
logical starting point for the inquiry.

Q Because he presumably would know the most about
how this started?

A Yes.

Q In terms of the order of the witnesses or the
people you tried to interview, was that the general logic
behind why you did it in that particular order?

A I think it was a combination of who was available
and we had a list of people that I wanted to talk with, and
then it was a matter of — I think with Mr. McFarlane, that
that was the logical starting point because he would know
the most about it and how the whole thing got started.

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Then there were others I wanted to talk with.
Some of them just happened to be fortuitous. For example,
that evening, George Shultz called me. He, I think, had
been out of town. I think I had placed a call to him.
Maybe he had heard it from Mr. Poindexter. He knew i
would want to talk with him. We arranged to do that the
next morning at 8 o'clock. I was trying to suit his
convenience. I am not sure whether he was playing golf that
day or not. Anyway/ we got together the next morning at
8 o'clock. He was readily available and wemted to be
cooperative.

Q Did Secretary of State Shultz tell you that he
had visited with the President on this matter on or about
the 20th?

A I don't know whether he bold me then on the phone
or whether he told me the next morning, but I do know
he told ma that. I know he — I am sure repeated it. If
he already told me that, he repeated it the next morning.

Q Did he say that he had visited the night of the
20th with the President?

A I think that's when he told me he had visited
with the President, yes.

Q Did he say he had discussed with the President
this discrepancy or differences of opinion in Mr. Casey's

testimony?

iJNj»fcfts»e£e^E^

A Yes. My best recollection is that he did tell
me that. -.-, , ,

Q So, when you were telling the President this on
Friday morning, this was not the first he had heard of it
presumably? . ^

A I guess that's correct.

Q Why did you want to interview Mr. Sporkin?

A Because somewhere along the line, possibly from
Mr. McFarlane, we learned that Mr. Sporkin had been
involved in this. I probably would have wanted to interview
him anyway. The General Counsel of the CIA would be
knowledgeable about anything like this. Somehow that had
come into the picture, probably as a result of my
conversation with Mr. McFarlane; and I think Mr. Sporkin
was interviewed in that order simply because he was availabit
at that time.

Q But your recollection is that Mr. McFarlane
had mentioned Judge Sporkin 's name?

A I don't know whether he did this or what.

Steve, let 'a look at that list that I made. If
you could get that document for me just to see, that may
jog my memory.

Q While he's looking, it is my recollection that
Judge Sporkin 's name comes actually fairly high on the
list. I'm curious as to why he may have been more

IiN^ft$«ll»flf|:!T

i^it'^L^^kJkmh'i'

i.Tiportant to interview than —

A Probably had to do with the fact that he had
looked into that Hawk shipment or the finding that resulted
from it, and that probably came from my conversation with
Mr. McFarlane. But I don't recall, or it may just be that
somehow I had learned that he was —

MR. LEON: Are you referring to this?

THE WITNESS: That's Cooper's. Let's see.
I think —

Here we are. Actually what I was doing, I was

)
listing McFarlane as the first one, Shultz, North, McMahon,

Sporkin, CIA Deputy Associate Director for Operations who

authorized the flight in November 1985. So I was really

taking this in kind of a stream af consciousness as I had

heard these stories.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q This list was made when?

A Made by me on the 21st of November.

Q And~

A I'm not sure where I got a lot of these names,
Dietel, Deputy General Counsel of CIA. They may have been
suggested by Chuck Cooper. Probably a lot of this came from
Chuck Cooper because he had been out at CIA and knew a
lot of the people involved.

Probably the suggestion of Sporkin actnally came

prp

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from hun, I would suspect, rather than McFarlane, now that
I see this list.

Q When you were meeting with Mr. McFarlane, did
either you or Mr. Cooper tell him about the Shultz--that
Shultz recalled a conversation in November of 1985 regarding
the Hawk shipment that differed from his rendition?

A I'd have to look at my notes to see whether I
did. Let me just see if I can find that.

Yes. I'm sure we did discuss it. Well, I'm not
sure . '

Q Maybe I can approach it--

A Oh. Yes. Yes. Here. These are the notes here.
At the sununit in Geneva, he learned that Israel had shipped
oil equipment. Rabin called from New York and said they had
a problem with the shipment to Iran. McFarlane said he
asked North to assist. North reported back that Israel had
hit a snag in customs^^^^^^^^^H and it may take a call
to the Prima Ministe^^^^^^^^^B A couple of days later
h« talked with him, with the Prime Ministe
McFarlane said it was an important project and would
appreciate his assistance.

He doesn't remember the chat with George Shultz.
So, apparently, we did talk with him about it. But he
probably had one, he said.

Q First of all, do you recall if you mentioned that

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there was a note that Secretary Shultz had?

A I don't remember whether we mentioned that
specifically to Mr. McFarlane.

Q Do you recall--when the interview w«is concluded,
was your understanding then that Mr. McFarlane believed
that It was oil-drilling equipment until told differently
when he was on his Iranian mission in May of 1986?

A That's what he told us, yes. That's what he
told us at that time.

Q ; Okay. So, in other words, when you informed him
of Secretary Shultz' s recollection, did he dispute that or
did he say, "Well maybe that's right"? Or did he say he
definitely did not know until May of 1986?

A I don't recall, and the notes say that he said
he didn't remember the chat with George Shultz, but he
probably had one.

Q What wa« your impression of Mr. McFarlane 's
statement at the conclusion of the interview? Mr. Cooper
testified that he felt he had not been totally forthcoming.
What was your opinion?

A Well, my impression was that he was concerned
about this and somewhat hesitant about certain aspects of
it.

Q About which aspects?

A Well, ray recollection is that he was somewhat

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hesitant about the aspects of the discussions with the
President and the transfers that had taken place by the
Israelis during 1985. I

Q And what was his hesitancy or his concern?

A I don't know. Just looked to me like he was hesita
about it. I don't know if he was having trouble rememberina
or what it was.

Q After the interview concluded —

A Yes.

Q And there came a point at which Mr. Cooper left
the room and Mr. McFarlane had a short conversation with
you. Can you tell us what you recall about that?

A I don't remember for sure whether it was while
we were still in the room or walking out. But, at some
point, he said something about — and this is to the best
of my recollection — and that is that he had apparently
given a speech or something in which he had taken a lot
of the responsibility for this whole thing on his shoulders,
and I think he made reference to that.

But he said something to the effect that he wanted
me to be — to know that the President was basically behind
this whole thing all along, and I said to him that it was
a very important — that he be sure to tell the truth and
that it was important to tell the truth about every aspect
and not try to shade it one way or the other thinking he

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was protecting the President, that actually things that
might have happened such as the President approving certain
aspects of this might be helpful rather than hurtful, but
the important thing was that he ought to tell the truth
exactly as it occurred.

Q And by youi; reference to the President approving
things that may have happend, did you have in mind the 198 5
shipments? In other words, if there was Presidential
approval?

A J I didn't have anything particulary in mind, .
although that, in effect, was correct. Probably as a legal
matter. But I didn't really have that in mind as much as
it was getting across to him that he shouldn't try to
predict how things would come out and how that would affect
the situation, but that he should tell it exactly as it
happened and tell the truth in every aspect of it.

Q There has been quite a bit of discussion about
whether or not you discussed an oral finding or a mental
finding with Mr. McFarlane on this or any other occasion.
Do you recall if you did?

A I don't recall ever having that discussion with
Mr. McFarlane. As a matter of fact, I believe that was
checked later on with his attorney and he indicated that
it was not with me that he had such a discussion, but that
he heard that — that some other Attorney General 'had made a

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statement that an oral finding was appropriate.

Q You discussed this with him later?

A No. I think somebody in my office talked with
him or his attorney later on and was made to believe that
this was — that Mr. McFarlane, when he may have subsequently
said that, was not referring to any conversation with me.
But I have no recollection of ever discussing that with him.

Q Did Mr. McFarlane indicate to you whether or not
he had told the President on November 18th, 1985, along
with the Secretary of State, about the Hawk shipment?

A Let's see. I don't have a recollection of whether
he did or not. I am trying to see if I find it in the notes.
I don't see anything referring to it in the notes.

Q I don't believe there are.

A Yes.

Q Did Mr. McFarlane talk to you aibout his preparatior
of the chronologies?

A I don't recall whether he did.

Q Did he make any reference to plans to shred any
documents at the NSC?

A I don't recall any such conversation. I'd have
to refresh my recollection from the notes, but right now,
I don't recall any such conversation.

Q And did he tell you that any of the Iran proceeds
had been diverted to the contra movement in Nica'ragua?

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A No. I have no recollection that he did, and i
don't believe that he did in our interview on the 21st.

Q Did you indicate to him that that conversation
should be kept confidential, or the fact that you were
doing an inquiry should be kept confidential, or anything to
that effect?

A I don't recall that I did.

Q Okay. Now Mr. McFarlane called you, I believe,
three or four days later to inquire--after this all became
public, to inquire whether he was a subject of an investiga-
tion? Whether his phones were surveilled?

A Yes. This was, I think, sometime probably a week
later and I don't remember — I have a vague recollection he
may have been in London , but I am not sure . Or , maybe he
was in this country. In any event, the London sticks in
my memory, but I am not sure. In any event, he did call
to ask whether, as I recall, whether he was either a subject
of an investigation or whether his phones were tapped,
sonvething like that. I think I made a note of that some
place. But, there was some sort of conversation like that
that I had with him.

Q Did Mr. McFarlane indicate to you that he had
spoken to Oliver North that day?

A I don't recall whether he did or not.
Q From — from let's say November —

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A Let me say there was another meeting with Mr.
North on the 2 4th of November.

Q You mean McFarlane?

MR. BOLTON: McFarlane.

THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Another meeting
with McFarlane on the 24th. Excuse me.
BY MS , NAUGHTON :

Q From November 14th of 1986 through, let's say,
the 2 5th when you made your announcement, did you advise
anyone ^n the United States Government or outside the
United States Government to get an attorney?

A No. Not that I can recall.

Q Do you know whether or not anyone at the Department
of Justice advised Oliver North, John Poindexter, or any
of the people involved in this to obtain counsel?

A Not that I know of, that I recall now.

Q And you didn't instruct anyone to relay this
message?

A No, I did not. Not that I can recall. And I
doubt if I would.

Q Your chronology shows that at 6:55 you spoke
to Secretary Weinberger or placed a call to him.

A This is on what day?

Q We are still on the 21st.

A Okay.

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"=LK #3 1 Q There was another call the next day, and apparently

l"! 2 another call on Monday. If we could lump these calls

3 together while we are on Weinberger, you spoke to him,

4 I gather, very briefly about these matters. What was his

5 general state of knowledge or position on the matters at

6 hand?

7 A Well, I talked to Mr. Weinberger on the 21st to

8 try to arrange to meet with him. He told me then that

9 he'd be glad to meet with me, wanted to cooperate. i told

10 him why H wanted to meet with him, that the President, had

11 asked me to do this. He said he would be glad to cooperate

12 and this was really more to alert him to what the President

13 asked me to do. He said he would be glad to talk the next

14 day, but his wife was going to be in the hospital and he

15 would probably be available at the hospital, as I recall.

16 Then the next day, I think that I called him

17 either at the hospital or at home, but I tracked him down
19 somewhere and got him; and talked with him generally about

19 this, as to what he might know and determined that he

20 really didn't have any information that would be paricularly

21 helpful, and he didn't really know any more about this than

22 ^ already knew that he knew, and generally decided I would

23 "°t meet with him on Saturday, that we would talk about it

24 later on.

25 Q Did he tell you whether or not he knew in November

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of 1985 about the Hawk shipment?

A I don't recall whether that came up in the
conversation or not.

Q Well, okay. If you didn't discuss that, or if
you can't recall discussing that, what made you think
he wouldn't be helpful in the inquiry?

A Well, I can't remember, but I just do remember
that it didn't appear to me important to interview him
any further, that he didn't have much information about it,
and I think my best recollection, or best guess, really
is that he said all he knew about the whole thing was he
had given the orders for the Army to transfer the weapons
that were the replenishments at various points and that he
had not been more involved than that. That's my best
recollection, but I don't remember the specific conversation

In any event, I do know that it caused me to
think that it would be less important to talk with him
than some of the other people, that he didn't have very
much information.

Q On Monday then, the 24th, once you learned that
there had been a diversion of money to the contras, did you
ask Secretary Weinberger if he had knowledge about that?

A I probably did. I don't remember specifically
asking him, but I may — I may well have. I'm not sure when
I talked with him that day.

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Q I gather your response is in the negative.

A The response would be in the negative.

Q And then at 7:05, still on Friday, the 21st,
you spoke to Director Casey.

A Yes.

Q What did you discuss with Mr. Casey?

A I think probably telling him what the President
asked me to do and saying that I wanted to get together
with him sometime over the weekend. What I was basically
doing w^s letting these people know what the President was
asking me to do. They would be hearing about these
activities and I wanted to let them know why I was doing
these things. By then, I had covered all the members
of the NSC basically.

Q Did you discuss with him the McFarlane interview,
what Mr. McFarlane said?

A No. I don't believe so. I think it was a very
brief call.

Q Now, on the 22nd of November, you had a meeting
with Secretary Shultz in the morning?

A Right.

Q Did they actually show you the note that Mr.
Hill had prepared?

A I don't think so, but I'm not positive. Mr.
Cooper probably would be better able to tell us 'that.

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Q Did you, independent of Mr. Cooper, take notes?
A No. Mr. Cooper took the notes. Let me just--

MR. LEON: I have an exhibit here. CJC 17.

THE WITNESS: Let me take a look at that.

MR. BOLTON: That's redacted.

MR. LEON: Yes. A redacted version.

THE WITNESS: Okay. This is— this is the

notei

MR. LEON: That is the note Mr. Cooper got
Monday ijiorning when he went over to see Sofaer and Hill.
The question is whether or not they produced it Saturday
morning to show you as well.

THE WITNESS: He got this the following Monday?

I don't think it was produced on that Saturday morning. My

best recollection is it was not produced. I think actually

— I am not sure Charlie Allen— I mean Charlie Hill — I think

that's it. Mr. Hill, in any event, that he had it with him

at- the time. I'm not sure. My best recollection is

that he did not have it with him. I'm not sure. In any

event, we did get it later on.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q At 9:55, the records indicate you spoke again to

Mr. Casey?

A Yes.

»
Q Do you recall what that was about?

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A No, I don't. Except it may have been I was going
to get together with him later in the day or something.

Q Was he at home or at the office?

A I don't recall.

Q Did you discuss the Shultz interview?

A I don't recall whether 1 did or not. i may have
told him that I had just talked with George Shultz, but I
probably didn't discuss it in any detail.

Q Sometime mid-morning, then, you met with Mr.
Cooper and Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson?

A Yes. At approximately 10 o'clock.

Q And arrangements were made for them to go to the
National Security Council offices for them to examine
records?

A Right.

Q What were they looking for?

A Basically to look at whatever documents were there
pertaining to the Iranian initiative so we could use that to
develop a chronology or a coherent account, an overview of
what had taken place.

Q You had chronologies from the NSC?

A We had chronologies, but it was a matter of
now talking with all the people who had knowledge. I wanted
to be sure we looked at the documents that might add to the
overall review of the matter. •

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Q When you discussed the review, prior to the
review, were there any specific areas that you wanted to
focus on or documents you wanted to look for?

A No. Just in order to be complete, just so we
were talking with each of the people that might have infor-
mation, we wanted to see whatever documents there might be
also.

Q So you didn't focus, for instance, on the Hawk
shipment? I

A J No. It was to look at all the documents pertaininq
to the Iranian initiative.

Q Did you speak with Mr. Poindexter that morning?

A My notes show that I did. My notes, the chronologj
shows that Mr. Cooper called Mr. Thompson at the NSC at
10:40, and that I called Mr. Poindexter at 10:45.

Q Do you recall what you told him?

A No, I don't.

Q Did you interview Judge Sporkin in the morning
or in the afternoon on Saturday?

A I believe that we interviewed him at 11:10 a.m.,
according to the reconstruction of the time here.

Q Do you have an independent recollection of that?

A My recollection is that we did call him in the
morning, that I called him in the morning and he said he
could come down very shortly and that he did come in a little

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after 11:00 and my recollection is definite that we
interviewed him before lunch and that lunch was fairly late
that day. • . ; i .

Q Now, Judge Sporkin obiously told you about the

November 1985 finding during that interview?

A Yes. . , . -

Q Was this the first you had learned of the November
1985 finding?

A I don't know whether I had heard about it before,
but I knpw he went into a great deal of information about
it.

Q Did he tell you why he never told you about it
when you were preparing the January finding?

A No. Not that I recall.

Q Did you ever ask him?

A No, not that I recall.

Q If we can skip to lunch, after the Sporkin
interview, at the Old Ebbitt, apparently you met at lunch
with Mr. Cooper, Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Richardson?

A Right.

0 There was some brief discussion of events, and
then Mr. Reynolds described to you this document which
has become known as the diversion memo?

A Right .

Q Do you recall how he told you about it? in other

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words, what he said he had found and where he had found it?

A I can't recall specifically, but my general
recollection is that they had found a memorandum describing
the Iranian initiative which included a plan to divert
excess funds from the Iran transaction to support of the
contras in Nicaragua.

And I don't recall specifically whether he said where
he found it, or in whose files. I have a vague recollection
he may have told me he found it in Colonel North's files,
or from Colonel North, but I can't be specific on that.

Q Do you recall what your reaction was?

A I was quite surprised.

Q Do you recall what the reaction of the others
around the table was?

A I think everybody was quite surprised, except
I think Mr. Richardson knew about it because he had been
with Mr. Reynolds. Mr. Cooper and I were quite surprised.

Q Was it established at that lunch, was it clear in
your mind, that Colonel North had written it, or was that
still a question?

A No. I don't think we knew — my best recollection
is we didn't know who had written it. That's why I am not
sure it was found in Colonel North's files or in some other
files.

Q Did you inquire of Mr. Reynolds whether there was

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a. cover memo?

A I don't believe I inquired that of him. i can't

recall exactly the conversation.

Q After —

A Because I doubt if I did, but I can't be sure
because at that point I had not seen the memo. I don't thin
it was until later that I saw the memo.

Q After you heard of the memo —

A I don't think — do you remember whether I saw the
memo, Steve?

MR. MATTHEWS: The best indication that we have

got —

Sunday.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. MATTHEWS: That would be the 2 3rd, the

THE WITNESS: Yes.
It appears — it appears he may have brought a
copy of the memorandum with him, in which case, I would have
seen it.

MR. MATTHEWS: This is the 2 3rd.

THE WITNESS: Oh, I am sorry. It appears the
first time I saw the memorandum was on the 2 3rd, on Sunday.

MR. LEON: Mr. Cooper testified, generally,
that when you were interviewing North and showed him the
diversion memo, he inquired of you whether you had found a

•^ ft 'Smm^t^ .

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cover memo. You said, "Why, should we have" or words to
that effect.

THE WITNESS: I believe that's correct. I
know that happened there. That's why I don't think I asked
that question of Mr. Cooper at lunch on the 22nd.
BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q After you found out that this memo existed and
there was a possibility funds were diverted to the contras,
did that change your strategy regarding the inquiry?

A J It didn't basically change our strategy. It added
another item of inquiry to it, but — because I had basically
plamned to ask Colonel North to come in anyway as the next
person; and, of course, we did ask him to come in on the
Sunday. I called him on the afternoon of Saturday, the
22nd, asked if he could come in on Sunday morning. He
said that, to the best of my recollection, he said he
usually went to church with his family on Sunday morning,
would it b« all right if he came in in the afternoon. I
said yes and we established 2 o'clock as the time he would
come in. ...

Q Has it discussed that he would be wanted for a
interview on Saturday afternoon? In other words, did you
want to speak to him right away? Or did you first ask him
about Sunday morning?

A I can't recall specifically, but — whether I was

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asking hiin whether he would be available that afternoon, but
I think I probably asked him to come in Sunday morning.
I can't be sure.

Q Did Mr. Reynolds tell you whether or not he had

discovered any other drafts of the memo?

A Oh. Excuse me for one thing. I probably did ask
him to come m on Sunday morning rather than Saturday
afternoon because Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson were still
conducting their review of the documents at the NSC, and i
wanted to get that completed first before we talked to Mr.
North. So, I'm almost positive that it was my suggestion
he come in on Sunday morning at the earliest. I mean,
that was the earliest time that I thought would be
appropriate. Excuse me. Go ahead.

Q Did Mr. Reynolds tell you whether or not there
were other versions of the memo?

A He did at some point. Whether it was then, or
whether it was Sunday morning, I'm not sure. But, he did
tell me there were other versions of a similar memo that
did not have the references to a plan for diversion of funds

Q Did you have copies of those? Did he obtain
copies?

A I don't remember. I'm sure he did obtain them,
or I guess he did obtain them. I don't remember ever seeing
them. I did see the memorandum that had the pl^n for a

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diversion in it.

Q Were you aware that Oliver North was present
while Mr. Richardson and Mr. Reynolds were reviewing
docu-Tients?

A I think they told me that he had been in and out
of the office, I think is the way it was described to me.
THE WITNESS: I have just been advised it is
getting towards 12:30. I have somebody coming in at 12:30.
Why don't we kind of come to a logical stopping point in the
next two, or three minutes.

MS. NAUGHTON; Certainly. I am about at that
point.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q Did either Mr. Reynolds or Mr. Richardson tell you
that Oliver North told them that he had an attorney?

A I don't recall that now — that they said that.

Q Were you aware at any point prior to Monday the
24th that Oliver North had consulted with an attorney?

A Not to the best of my recollection, no. And I'm
almost positive they did not tell me that. No one told me
that or that we had any information. I don't think any of
us had any information that he had an attorney on Sunday
because, if we had, we would have been compelled, I think,

probably to talk with his attorney. It's just the normal

«
reaction any lawyer would have. ' •

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Q Once the diversion memo was found, did you discuss
possible leaks of that information?

A Leaks?

Q Leaks or what other parties would know about it?

A I don't remember whether we did. We may have.

Q Mr. Casey called you, I believe, that afternoon
about 3:46?

A Ye s .

Q Do you recall what you discussed?

A ^ I think he said he had some things that he wanted
to discuss with me. I agreed to meet him at his home that
evening sometime at or after 5 o'clock. Mr. Casey lives
over near where I do, and I said that I would drop in on
my way home .

Q So, that conversation was just to set up —

A Yes. The meeting that night.

Q Did you ever actually sit down and interview Mr.
Casey as you had with Shultz and McFarlane?

A No.

Q Why not?

A Well, I was planning to do that. We did have a
conversation in which he told me some things on Saturday
night. I knew basically — I had heard him from the meeting
on the 20th, generally, what he knew, of course, he had
testified. And I had planned really over the cdurse of the

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next period of time to talk with him, I think, in the sense
that the finding of the so-called diversion memo short
circuited that because I wanted to find out whether there
was any truth to it, which is what we did on Sunday, and
then to talk to the President about it, which is what we
did on Monday. So that, in a s^nse, that — what would have
been a normal discussion with Cqhers in the same sense that
we had was cut short, in a sense, by trying to get — by
finding this and then wanting to be sure that this was
brought to the attention of the President.

Q So, I gather your testimony was that you had
planned on doing it, but events —

A Well, I had in mind talking to Casey at greater
length, yes, as I had with all of these people, to get
whatever additional information they had. But the best of
my information, of Mr. Casey's part, I already knew,
generally, what he knew based upon his testimony and the
memorandum that we saw on Thursday; whereas, I had not
gotten the seune kind of detailed information, for example,
from Mr. McFarlane, Mr. Sporkin, Mr. North.

Q From the McFarlane interview, Sporkin, and from
what you indicated before, Mr. Cooper was there sort of
to take notes? You didn't- take notes?

A That's right. I did not take notes.

Q Was that your general plan to have a nbtetaker

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iia

With you?

A Yes. I wanted somebody other than myself to
take notes.

Q Why was that?

A Oh, so I could ask the questions.
Q Okay. So, you didn't take any notes of any
interviews throughout the whole weekend?

A Not that I can recall. I doubt if i did.

MS. NAUGHTON: This might be a convenient stop.
) THE WITNESS: Very good. We will see you all
in one hour.

(Recess at 12:30 to reconvene at 1:30 p.m.)

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1:45 p.m.

»4

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119

AFTERNOON SESSION
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE
(Continued)
BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q We are back on the record.

Let the record reflect it is about 1:47.
We were around the date of Saturday, November 22nd.
I had one question relating to Friday. After you sat down
with Mr. Cooper, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Reynolds and had sort of a
game plan,' if you will, of people to be interviewed and'
documents that you wanted to review, why didn't you send
someone over on Friday to review documents at the NSC?

A I think the idea was we wanted to do it the next
morning. We had a number of things to do on that afternoon
and there was no particular urgency to it.

So it was just a matter of going through those things.
Q What were Mr. Richardson and Mr. Reynolds to do then
on Friday afternoon?

A As a matter of fact, I don't think at that point we
had even determined it would be Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson.
I think we probably determined that on Saturday morning as we
apportioned out tasks that day. They were to review the
documents and develop — get selected documents that might be
useful in providing information to prepare an overview of the
activities that went on and to know what documents there were.

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I think it was anticipated that there would
probably be inquiries from Congress and it was to be sure
that we knew what documents were available and what kinds
of documents there were, particularly anything that would
give a sense of particular dates or other things that, other
people tnat we ought to talk to and so on, just so we had a
basic documentary background for the fact-finding we were
doing.

Q So the answer to my question as to why this wasn't
done starting Friday afternoon —

A I Was [there /was no urgency to it. I think we were
doing other things to prepare that afternoon. The idea was —
I am not sure what Mr. Cooper — Mr. Cooper was working with
me and Mr. McFarlane. I don't know what the others were
doing. They had other things to do in their normal duties.

Saturday seemed like a good day since they wouldn't
have their normal round of appointments.

Q Skipping back to Sunday evening, I guess around
6:00 p.m. or so, you went to Mr. Casey's home.

A No. That would be Saturday evening.

Q Yes. Saturday evening. I am sorry.

A You said Sunday.

Q Okay .

At Mr. Casey's house, do you recall how long that

visit lasted?

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1 A I would say it was probably an hour perhaps. i

2 may have some notes on that.

3 Do we have any notes relating to that?

•4 ''■' ' I don't think we do. Or testimony as to that.

5 ••'•' • MR. MATTHEWS: I don't recall any. There may be a

6 notation on a log. ■ . ^- !.
7'' ' "• THE WITNESS: All right. Go ahead.

8 BY MS. NAUGHTON: v

9 - Q Who else was at Mr. Casey's home?

10 A . If I remember correctly, I think his son-in-law

11 was there and possibly his daughter and also his wife were

12 there. Not in the room while we were talking, but they were

13 there in the house. I saw them at that time.

14 Q Other than family members, was there anyone from

15 the U.S. Government?

16 A Not to my recollection, no.

17 Q When you spoke to him, did you speak to him alone or

18 in the presence of his family?

19 A No. I met with Mr. Casey by himself.

20 Q Was this recorded in any way?

21 A No. No. It was a very informal conversation.

22 Q And what did Mr. Casey want to speak with you about?

23 A Well, he told me that he had had a contact with a maO

24 by the name of Furmark, who was a former business associate

25 of his, or someone he had kno%m through business and he told

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1 me that Mr. Furmark had come to him about a month earlier,

2 that he had told him that there were some people, apparently

3 Canadians, who had somehow put up some money for the

4 bridging financing of the Iranian initiative or the arms

5 transactions and that they had not been paid back all of

6 their money and that they were threatening to go public with

7 it and, therefore, expose the whole Iranian operation.

8 Mr. Furmark had come to him before this became

9 public.

10 Q 9o he came to him sometime in October then?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Did Mr. Casey explain to you why he waited until

13 now to tell you about that?

14 A Well, there was no reason to tell me about it. It

15 was just at that point that I was getting into this fact-

16 finding and he felt this was something I ought to know, so

17 that I would have all the facts as the President had asked me

18 to.

19 Q Did Mr. Casey also mention that Mr. Furmark had

20 told him that he suspected or that others suspected some of

21 the profits from the Iramian arms sales went to the contras

22 i-n Nicaragua?

23 A I 2un trying to remember. He told me that, if I

24 remember correctly, that Mr. Furmark had told him that if they

25 were not paid, the Canadians would claim that money from the

flNPJiiq^icjcr)

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CAS-5 1 Iran arms transaction, presumably the money they were supposed

2 to get had been used instead for what I believe he

3 described as Israeli or United States Government projects.

4 Q And was he specific? '

5 A I don't believe he was specific. I am sure that he

6 did not mention anything about Central America, but I tmnk it

7 was a matter of — I think the description, if I recall

8 correctly, was United States and Israel Government projects.

9 Q And that is what Mr. Casey is relating to you?

10 A ,Yes.

11 Q Did Mr. Casey then discuss with you whether —

12 A And he said they were doing that in order to put

13 pressure on the United States to make up the difference in

14 the money that they had not been paid.

15 Q Did Mr. Casey then relate to you that one of these

16 projects might be funds to the contras?

17 A No. That did not come up during that conversation.

18 - Q Is your testimony then that there was no

19 discussion of contras or the Nicaraguan resistance with

20 Mr. Casey on Saturday evening?

21 A I don't believe that came up, no.

22 Q Do you know what Director Casey's relationship

23 was with Oliver North?

24 A No, I don't. Other than just — I really don't

25 know how closely or — how closely or remotely they happened

miCUSSlOED.

125

UNSHfi^^sfioa^T

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CAS-6 1

to work together.

Q Did Mr. Casey ever discuss Colonel North with you?

A Not that I recall.

Q Did Director Casey make any reference at all, not
just in this conversation, but in any conversation you have
had with him, to any directions he had given Colonel North
regarding the destruction or shredding or altering of any
documents?

A No. I have never had any discussion with Mr. Casey
about that,

Q Now, on Sunday, you spoke to Mr. Casey again in the
morning. Do you recall what that was about?

A I don't recall talking with him on Sunday. And
I don't see any notations that I did.

Q I have one other question —

A Wait a minute. Here it is. Yes. I did talk
with him, as a matter of fact, on the 23rd of November,
because I ■•• a note here. I talked with him at 10:10
approximately.

And I think that we were interested in the names of
CIA people who might have been involved in any of these
transactions. And he said that he would make available
the names of Americans and foreign persons except those still
involved in operations, presumably operations within Iran,
and he said those we could identify on a person-by-person

^ *%a^..

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yVQA.S£G£i:T

125

1 basis if they really became important.

2 Q Now, on Saturday, either on Saturday evening, when

3 you spoke to Mr. Casey, or Sunday morning, did you tell him
* about the diversion memo?

5 A When I talked with Mr. Casey on the 22nd?

6 Q Saturday/

7 A NO, I did not.

8 Q Why not?

9 A Well, for one thing, I didn't know what we had

10 at that t4.me, because we had not — we just had the memo.

11 We had not verified whether there was anything to it. Also,

12 I guess it is just a natural lawyer's instinct not to talk

13 about anything until we had more or to talk about any

14 of the people that I might be talking with later on about this.

15 Q Well, you spoke to Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Regan,

16 Mr. Bush, and others on Monday morning about it.

17 A Well, but that was after I had talked with

18 Colonel North and knew what — in fact, that there had been

19 such a thing.

20 Q When did you first then discuss the diversion

21 situation, the memo and the diversion itself with Director

22 Casey?

23 A I believe it was on Tuesday morning when he called

24 me about 6:30 just as I was leaving the house and asked if I

25 would come by his house on my way to work, which I did.

.yt.*J! ^'*~^ ■

niiuu^fit»¥di

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126

Q And he heard about it from whom?

A He heard about it, I believe, from Don Regan the
previous evening, I believe.

Q And if we can jump ahead then to that conversation,
what did he know of it or what were his comments about it?

A Well, he had heard from Don Regan that there had been
a diversion and that Poindexter was planning to resign and
that Don Regan felt that Poindexter should resign
immediately and probably — I don't know whether North was
discussed, too, or not.

Q So I take it you gathered from your conversation
with Mr. Casey on Tuesday morning that the diversion was
news to him? He was learning it for the first time?

A Yes. I felt, and certainly in our conversation on
Saturday night, there was no indication that he knew
anything about it and I later learned that when — that
after he had gotten the Furmark information, that he had
talked with Poindexter and possibly North, I am not sure,
about this whole matter and that they had assured him there
was nothing to it.

Q Do you recall when he might have spoken to Admiral
Poindexter and Colonel North about that?

A No. I think this was contained in some documents
that Mr. Casey had that I saw later on.

Q These were documents sent over from the fciA?

MPiMSi^JSkvT

128

UNfiDfiSSfi^QBBET

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CAS-9 1

A Sent over from CIA, right.

Q Do you recall were they handwritten notes or
memoranda?

A I think they were memoranda. We have them. I think
they were memoranda. We have them. I think they were typed
memoranda.

Q I cun going to ask the reporter to mark a
dociiment as Exhibit number 1.

(Exhibit EM-1 was marked for identification.)
BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q Did you recover the CIA —

A I have here the documents which you have copies
here including a letter to me dated the 2Sth of November,
1986, from Bill Casey and enclosing an undated memorandum
to Join Poindexter which is not signed by Mr. Casey, a
memorandum for the Director and Deputy Director of
Central Intalligenca from Charles Allen dated the 7th of
Novenb«r, entitled "Meeting with Roy M. Furmark", and a
meaorandun dated the 17th of October 1986 to the Director and
Deputy Director of Central Intelligence from Charles Allen,
subject, "Ghorbanifar^^^^^^^Khannel" , and other documents
relating — dated — memorandum -- memoranda to the DCI
and DDCI dated the 14th of October regarding problems with
the Iranian initiative.

Q It

129

Ultt((3lfijSilKSifiET

CAS-10 1

A You have copies of these, I believe.
MR. BOLTON: Yes.

MS. NAUGHTON: I don't know we have a full set.
MR. BOLTON: If you by any chance don't have
them, they are with the Independent Counsel or still in the
redaction process. They can and will be produced.
BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q Showing you what has been marked as Exhibit EM-1,
are these your notes?

A I^o. These were not mine.
Q That is my first question.
A Oh.

Q These are notes that I took from a file sent to the
committee from — marked from the Attorney General's files?
A I have no idea who these are.

MR. BOLTON: It is entirely possible there would be
notes produced from the Attorney General's files that were not
in his handwriting.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q Do you know whose handwriting that is?
A No, I have no idea.

Q The subject matter on the memo obviously is dated —
or on the notes is dated November 25th?
A Yes.
Q Talking about some of the matters at han3?

OUfJljBS^iJf^m,

130

^'JlifiJ^SSKSEBT

129

CAS- 11 1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

A It says, "notes from Tuesday a.m., look through
Poindexter and Thompson — " -- that is "Poin", p-o-i-n,
slash, "Thomp", t-h-o-m-p, "files dated the 25th of November".
Q What I would like you to direct your attention to is
the third dash. It says, "Ollie memo, mid file, Ollie brought
over last night".

Is that a reference that Oliver North was — was
brought over to the Department of Justice?

A I have no idea. I have never seen this before, to
my knowledge.

Q If I could direct your attention to page 2?

A Yes.

Q It says there, "Casey said told 14 September".

Do you know what that is a reference to?
A No.
Q ThanJc you.

After you had discovered or your people had discovere
the diversion memo, did you call Admiral Poindexter or did you
attempt to try to call him?

A Excuse me. One question. When we get the
transcript back to look at it, since this will be an exhibit
it is included, will this be included with the transcript?
Q It should be.

A Then we don't have to make a copy now.
MR. MATTHEWS: It is in the file.

SiNCLASSIFSFn

131

UltOA^ESKET

130

CAS-12 1 THE WITNESS: Okay.

2 BY MS. NAUGHTON:

3 - Q Did you attempt to speak to Admiral Poindexter
^ after discovering the diversion memorandum or --

5 A On?

6 Q Saturday night or Sunday?

7 A No.

8 Q Is there any reason why not?

9 A No. None that I can remember.

10 ;i think by the time we were through on Sunday,

11 it was fairly late in the evening, seven o'clock or

12 eight o'clock, thereabouts. And on Monday, my main interest

13 was in advising the President of this whole situation.

14 Q Did you see — during that weakened inquiry, did

15 you see any other documents taken by Mr. Reynolds or

16 Mr. Richardson from the National Security Council offices

17 other than the diversion memo?

18 A I don't recall whether I did or not on Sunday,

19 whether I saw amy.

20 Q Do you recall seeing any other on Monday?

21 A Or on Monday.

22 Q When Oliver North showed up at the Department of

23 Justice around 2:15 on Sunday afternoon, he was alone,

24 I take it; is that correct?
25

A Yes.

UNCLASSIFe.

132

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I3i

CAS- 13 ^

2
3
4
5

7
8

9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Q Did he say he had retained an attorney or consulted
with an attorney?

A I don't have any recollection that he did, no.

Q Did anyone in the room ask him if he had an attorney;

A No. Not to my recollection. I doubt if they did.

Q Did you take any notes of that interview?

A No. Not that I recall.

Q What do you recall Oliver North telling you about
the November Hawk shipment?

Jn other words, let me make my question more .
pointed and save some time. Did he indicate that he knew
at the time the missiles were shipped that they indeed were
Hawk missiles in November of 1985 or did he stick with the
oil drilling story?

A What he told me was that he learned of a shipment
from Israel to Iran, that Israeli officials contacted
McFarlane and said it was important to the Iranian initiative
that a shipment of oil drilling equipment be completed. He
said h« w«« asked by McFarlane to assist with landing
rights and Customs ^^^^^Hand was obtaining air transport
for Israel. North said— and this was — to answer your
question specifically. North said that Secord later told him
the shipment was Hawk missiles not oil drilling equipment.

Q Did Mr. — Mr. Cooper testified that North then
added he suspected it wasn't oil drilling equipment but he

UNCLASSJfm

^^^^

133

132

could pass a lie detector on that question. Do you recall
him saying that?

-A He may have. I don't specifically recall it at
this time. I am looking at the notes that were taken
contemporaneously. I don't see anything here.

Q I don't think there is a reference to it.

A I see the notes here that say that North was told
it was oil drilling equipment. He said I wondered if it was
not. This is what he said.

But he first knew that it was not from Secord.

Q Now, can you tell us how you presented the question
of the diversion of the monies to the contras?

A Say that again.

Q How you presented that? How you began to question
him on that?

A Yes. Again, if I may, I will — I will make
reference to these notes here.

Q For the record, those are Mr. Richardson's notes?

A Mr. Richardson's notes.

Okay. I showed him a memorandum and asked if it
was something that he had prepared. And I mentioned that
it is — in terms of reference, it was dated some time in
April of 1986. And that it was with reference to the Iranian
initiative and that it had talked about on the 13th of September'
with the endorsement of the U.S. Government the Israelis

ywci a.q<?!FBFa

134

CAS-15 1

2
3
4
5

7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

133

transferred 508 TOWs and he told me that he didn't know who
had prepared the memo.

He thinks that it may — well, I am not sure now at
this point whether he — no, I am sorry. Strike that.

Let me go back. When I mentioned 508 TOWs.

There was a discussion of who had given the endorse-
ment of the U.S. Government and he said he didn't know who did
it.

He thought it was McFarlane baaed on a general
J
understanding from Ronald Reagan, President Reagan, and then

at that point, Z said there is some who have a concern to

protect the President, but we need to know the facts. And

then he said something about everyone that he had talked to

in the Israeli Government, Peres, Rabin,]

said that it was at the U.S. request.

But they did not get that information from North.
And then thsre was a discussion generally of who authorized
this and th«n I went back and, anyway, we had talked about
th« msno generally and what it contained, about the Iranian
initiative generally.

Then I said, now, referring your attention back to
the memo, it appears to have been written between the fourth
and seventh of April and mentions .the use of the money being
transferred to the contras, and asked him — and then asked
him what h«

6NetASSIFSED

135

oit^^lJii&T

134

And at that point, he was visibly surprised that
the memo had that proposal for the transfer of funds to the
contras in it and it was at that time that we then went into
the details of this and he explained about these transactions.

Q When you say "visibly surprised", did he say
anything or was that just from his expression?

A I think just from his expression generally and
demeanor .

Q Did he ask if there was — if you had found a
cover memo?

A I think at one point, and again I am going to —
I think he was asked if the President had approved this or
if the President had seen this, something to that effect,
and he says, was there a cover memo on it. Or did you find a
cover memorandum or something like that.

And I can't remember exactly the conversation, but
I believe Mr. Reynolds may have indicated that they did not —
that there was no other cover memo with it.

And then there was a discussion about, well, if the
President okays something, does it go into the working
files of the NSC, and either he said that or he was asked
that question, according to the notes, and then I said,
according to these notes, if the President approved it,
you would have it, wouldn't you?

And

(»ietA$SIF?f9

think it was approved.

136

CAS-17 1

135

And then I asked if there were any other files over
there, did they keep, for example, a file of approved
presidential directives? And he said he didn't know.

Q Did you ask him who else had seen the memo or had
access to it?

A I don't recall that being askeu at the time.
Q Did you ask him if there was a cover memo?
A It may have been. That may have been asked if
there should have been a cover memo, and if so, I don't have
any recollection he said there should have been.

I think the reason being that this particular
memorandum was obviously not a presidential decision memorandum
and that is probably why he asked if there was a cover memo in
the context of whether the President had seen it or approved
it.

Q Did he say it had been — the diversion had been
approved by anyone?

I am not talking about who might have known about it
but approval.
A Yes.

I am trying to recall, and — I asked if it was
discussed with Ronald Reagan and he said not by me, not by
him.

Then he said Poindexter is the point of contact with

Ronald Reaga:

imeiftssff^

that he did tell me that

137

^NCcnssKifiET

136

CAS-18 1 Poindexter knew of it. I don't believe the question

2 specifically -- of authorization came through, but he did

3 say that -- he told me that three people — there were

4 only three in the U.S. Government who coulci know about

5 this, and that was McFanane, Poindexter, and North.

6 Q What about outside the Government? Did he say that

7 Mr. Secord was involved in the diversion of funds?

8 A He did not say anything about Secord that I can

9 recall in that context. He did say that certain Israelis

10 knew about it. ,

11 Q And that would be Mr. Nir, or others?

12 A I believe it was Mr. Nir, but I am not positive.

13 Q All right. And did he say that Albert Hakim knew

14 of the diversion?

J 15 A That name did not come up to my recollection in the

16 conversation at all.

17 Q But to skip for a minute, did you learn on Monday

18 that Tom Gre«n, the attorney who spoke to Mr. Reynolds,

19 and Mr. Cooper had indicated that it was Mr. Hakim's idea

20 to divert the funds to the contras?

21 A I don't believe I learned of that, because I

22 didn't have time to go into those details with Mr. Reynolds

23 on Monday.

24 He did tell me that Mr. Green had talked to him, but

I don't —

UNCLASSIF8ED

138

UlVffilSS&id%T

137

Q At any rate, were you aware that Mr. Green knew of
the diversion on Monday? That they had spoken about it?

A I don't know all of the details of that conversation
that Mr. Green had with Mr. Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds told
me that they — that Mr. Green had talked to him and the
basic points of that conversation was that there was nothing
particularly new in what Mr. Green had told Mr. Reynolds
that would be helpful to me as I was going through this
thing on Monday.

Q l4id Mr. Green serve as a confirmation that th6
diversion had taken place?

A I don't know. You would have to ask Mr. Reynolds
that. My conversations with him were very brief about the
whole thing.

Basically, Green's conversation with him added
nothing particularly new that I would need as I was pursuing
the various things I was doing on that Monday.

Q Now, when Oliver North —

A Let me go back, if I may, as to the diversion. What
North did say was CIA had no knowledge of the diversion. He
did say that no other U.S. officials were involved other
than the ones mentioned. No other U.S. officials were
involved besides himself, that McFarlane and Poindexter
were knowledgable and that among the Israelis it was Nir

involved, p

DflCtlltSSIFttD

139

CAS-20 "•

138

Q Did he indicate whether anyone at Southern Air
Transport knew, since Southern Air was involved in both the
Iranian arms shipments and the contra resupply efforts?

A I don't have any recollection that he discussed
Southern Air Transport at all.

Q When Colonel North mentioned Mr. Secord as being
involved, is that the first you had heard of Secord 's
involvement?

A Yes. When he mentioned that he had been involved
in the Hawk missile situation in November and he
described how he got involved by savina that he was a friend
of his and when he needed someone to work on this overseas,
aooarentlv Secord was in Eurooe . that he asked Secord to do
it.

Q And were vou aware at that time that General Secord
had b.->en investigated bv the Deoartment of Justice in the
Edwin Wilson case?

A I think I had a general recollection of that nzune
having been mentioned in some such context. I don't recall
soecificallv that I knew of that at the time. It haooened
incidentallv. at a time when I wasn't in the Justice Deoartment

C I gather Oliver North did not mention that he ^^d
altered anv documents during his interview with vou- is that
correct?

-OMAS^CED

140

U!tfi])ft3Sfi(9J^T

139

CAS- 21 1

Q And that he did not mention shredding any
documents prior to the arrival of the Department of Justice
team?

A No. I am sure that was not discussed.

Q After the interview was over, what was your opinion
regarding whether he had been truthful with you?

A After the interview, I had no reason to believe
and did not have any reason — and did not believe that he
had not been truthful. I felt he had been truthful with
us.

Q From — then from the time that the diversion memo
was discovered and reported to you at lunch on Saturday,
until you made the announcement at the Tuesday press
conference, did you ever discuss with anyone whether on
behalf of the Department of Justice or otherwise the
possibility of keeping the diversion or the diversion memo
quiet?

A NO.

Q Did you ever instruct anybody not to disclose that
information?

A Not that I can recall.

Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you that Judge Sofaer had
called him on Sunday evening and expressed to him that
Judge Sofaer had a concern ediout the obvious over-pricing of
the missit.9ftMHt|^(;[^q9#Fff'K3^rlthat maybe some of the monies

"tJMCWS^ED'

141

yNOKABSfflcQ^ET

140

might have been used to support the contras, given the
involvement of Southern Air Transport in both ventures?

A I don't recall that — any conversation with
Mr. Cooper on that.

Q You don't recall Mr. Cooper telling you that?

A I don't recall Mr. Cooper telling me that.

Q The next morning, after a meeting here =t the
Department of Justice, you spoke to Mr. McFarlane in your
office; is that right?

A Yes.

Q Were you alone with him at that meeting?

A I believe I was, yes.

Q Did you take any notes?

A No, I did not take any notes.

Q Why not?

A I don't know. No particular reason. I was
primarily interested in finding out from Mr. McFarlane
whether he knew of the diversion of funds to the contras
and, if so, under what circumstances he knew; essentially
to corroborate or compare what he knew with what Mr. North,
Colonel North, had told me. My recollection is that what
Mr. McFarlane said to me — and this was a rather hurried
morning because I was trying to get this done so that I
could get over to the White House, and I believe if I
remember ctjAllii, AiiS:}£9£^iV^« ^n about 10:15, just

142

141

1 as r was en route to the White House. So I asked him whether

2 he knew and my recollection is that he verified what

3 Mr. McFarlane said that he had learned about it on the trip to

4 Tehran.

5 Q What Colonel North had said?

6 A What Colonel North had said, that he had learned

7 about it on the trip to Tehran from Colonel North and that that

8 was essentially all he knew about it.

9 Q Did you ask Mr. McFarlane who else was aware of it?

10 A I don't recall whether I did or not.

11 Q Did you ask him -- did you show him the memo, the

12 diversion memo?

13 A No.

14 Q Why not?

15 A I don't believe I did. I don't think I had the

16 memo at that time.

17 Q Did you ask Mr. McFarlane whether or not he knew if

18 the President had been told of the diversion?

19 A I don't recall whether I did or not. And I would —

20 probably not, because it appeared that his knowledge was

21 very limited of the whole thing. It was just limited to what

22 Colonel North had told him on the trip to Tehran, where it

23 was more or less incidental in the conversation there .

24 Q Did you ask him why he didn't tell you this on

25 Friday?

UNCLASSIFIED

143

.42

A No. I don't believe I did. It was a very hurried
conversation, so I don't remember asking him that.

Q Did he indicate to you in any way that he had spoken

to Colonel North since?

A No. I don't have any -- I don't recall that he
did. I doubt j.f he did.

Q When you went to the White House that morning,
did you go straight to see the President or did you meet with
anyone prior to that?

A I believe I went directly — if I remember
correctly, I was late — or I was -- it was very close. I
was not there as early as I had planned, so I went directly
to the meeting with the President and Don Regan, although I may
have stopped by Don Regan's office first. I am not sure.

Q So you may have spoken to Mr. Regan prior — just
prior —

A I may have spoken to Mr. Regan just prior to going
to see the President. I am not sure.

Q When you told the President about the diversion
and Mr. North's confirmation, I gather Mr. Regan was present?

A Yes. It was just Mr. Regan, the President and
myself.

Q Was that the first time that Mr. Regan had heard of
it?

A I believe so, although I may have mentioned it to

!ii,^ve so, although I may

IJlVCLASSlFED

144

14 3

1 him before I saw the President, but I don't think so. i think

2 when I talked to him and the President together, that was the

3 first- he knew of it.

4 As a matter of fact, the more I think about it, the

5 more I think I went directly to the President's office and
u that Mr. Regan met me there. But I am not absolutely

7 positive.

8 In any event, I believe the first time that I

9 mentioned it to either Mr. Regan or the President was in the

10 President' i office.

11 Q Did yoiu take notes of this meeting?

12 A No.

13 Q Do you recall whether Mr. Regan or the President

14 took notes of this meeting?

15 A I doubt if either one did. Although Mr. Regan might
15 have, but I doubt it.

17 Q To the best of your recollection, what did you tell

13 the Fresident?

19 A I told the President we had gone through the fact-

2Q finding process as I had indicated on Friday, that I had

21 talked to the various people and that in the course of

22 exeunining documents in the National Security Council staff

23 offices on Saturday, we had come across a memorandum that

24 included a plan for the diversion of excess funds from the

25 sale of the weapons to Iran which were then diverted for the

UNCIASSIF3ED

145

144

1 use of the freedom fighters in Nicaragua and that I had

2 talked with Ollie North and confirmed that, in fact, that

3 had happened and had then — I believe I also told them I had

4 also confirmed that -- Bud McFarlane knew about it from

5 Colonel North.

6 Q And what was the President's response?

7 A Well, he was very much surprised. I would say

8 shocked, as was Don Regan.

9 Q Do you recall what he said, the President?

10 A i can't remember exactly, but it was some

11 expression of surprise.

12 Q And did he ask you anything more about it?

13 A Yes. We talked about it and the President — the

14 President said what we have got to -- at that time, we got in

15 there, I think we got in the office late. That is what

16 makes me think — and the President had to leave at 11:30

17 because he was having a meeting, I believe, with Chief

18 Bhutaiezi from South Africa.

19 So the meeting was terminated abruptly. I said,

20 Mr. President, I have to do some more on this, because there

21 were still other people to talk to. And I said I will

22 come back to you this afternoon after the NSPG meeting, so

23 that we can continue to discuss this, because I had just

24 told him and the meeting had to be — very shortly after

25 that, we had to decide what the next steps would be.

ONClflSQir^m

146

145

Q Did Mr. Regan leave with the President or did you
stay and speak to him?

A " I don't remember. I think he and the President
probably left together.

Q And after you spoke to the President —

A Although I may have stayed there awnile. I may
have met with — no. I think I met with Mr. Regan later that
afternoon rather than right then.

Q Was there any discussion at the morning meeting
with the President as to if this would become public or how it
would become public or what the next step was to take?

A No. I think that the idea was that we wanted to —
well, in the morning, no. The idea was that we wanted to —
there were more things I wanted to do, including finding out
who else may have known about it, because I had not had a
chance, for example, to talk to Admiral Poindexter.

And then I said we would get back together in the
afternoon, which we did.

Q I gather then after the President and Mr. Regan
left, you met with Admiral Poindexter; is that correct?

A My recollection is that I met with Admiral Poindexter
after the NSPG meeting in the afternoon euid before I met
with the President.

Q Okay. So after your meeting with the President,

let's say it isp*lP}4^|^^Mt'f4f^f^llf^^V°" '^°^

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1 A I think I came back here to the Department of Justic

2 because my notes show -- my notes show that I came back here

3 and met with -- or at least reconstruction of my notes, that

4 I met with Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, Mr. Cribb, who had returne

5 from vacation at that time, or whichever he had been, and

6 Mr. Richardson at 12:30 p.m.

7 Q After meeting with them, you went back to the White

8 House?

9 A No. I met with them at the White House — oh,

10 yes, I wen^ back to the White House for a two o'clock meeting.

11 Q So you did not confirm then that Admiral Poindexter

12 knew of the diversion then until some time Monday

13 afternoon?

14 A Monday afternoon, right.

15 Q And when you spoke to Admiral Poindexter about it,
15 were you alone with him?

17 A Yes. I was alone with him.
13 Q Did you take notes of that?
19 A No, I did not.
2Q Q Do you recall if he took notes?

21 A No, I don't believe he did.

22 Q What did Admiral Poindexter tell you about —

23 in response to your questions?

24 A He said that Ollie North had given him enough

25 hints of ^^^tatiM J^fin^olna on so that he should have

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C-C-

known or did know what was going on on the diversion, but
he said he had not inquired further.

Q Did you ask --

A Then he said that he had not told either the
President or Don Regan and he said that he thought when this
ill became public that he would probably have to resign.

Q So then did you ask Admiral Poindexter if he had
told the President about the diversion?

A I asked him. Yes. I believe I asked him or he
told me. I* asked him had he told anyone else or did anyone
else know about it. And he said that he had not told the
President or Regan.

Q Did Admiral Poindexter indicate to you who
authorized the diversion?

A No. He did not say that anybody had authorized it,

Q Did you get the impression from him that this was
just Ollie operating on his own?

A I got the impression that it was something that
had happened which he knew about or had learned about and
which he allowed then to go on. And then he indicated to me
that at that point he said I knew when this beciune public
that I would probably have to resign, not because there was
anything wrong with it, as much as because of the political
uproar it would cause.

Q Did i'OUjafl.Jc him whether or not there was 'a cover

^ou^sK mm wnecner or nc

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memo or whether that diversion memo or any of its drafts had
been seen by the President?

A I don't believe that I did. I don't have any
recollection of doing that. I asked him whether he had told
the President or Regan about it or at least we had a
conversation in which he said that he had not.

Q Did you have the memo with you when you spoke to
him?

A No. That was being safeguarded over here, I think,
by Mr. Reynolds.

Q During your meeting a little earlier that day
with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Richards and Mr. — Mr. Richards
and Mr. Reynolds, did Mr. Cooper mention to you there was a
rumor at the CIA that funds had been diverted to the
contras?

A I don't recall that. He may have. I don't recall
it at this time.

Q Would it refresh you to say that Mr. McGuiness,
who works for Mr. Cooper, had spoken to someone at the CIA
that morning and he had related to Mr. Cooper that that rumor
was afloat at the CIA?

A It is possible. I just don't recall at this time.

Q When you were briefed — strike that.

At two o'clock at the NSPG meeting, was there a
discussion o^

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1 A Yes. There was a detailed discussion of which I

2 took notes and have notes about that.

3 Q Was the diversion mentioned?

4 A No. -

5 Q Why not?

6 A Because I had not had a chance to discuss it further

7 with the President. I did not mention it. I wanted to

8 discuss it further with the President so we could determine

9 what action to be taken.

10 Q Do you recall when it is then that you spoke to the

11 President?

12 Was it after you spoke to Admiral Poindexter?

13 A Yes.

14 Q And so then it would be some time late afternoon
^5 of Monday?

^5 A It was late afternoon. I think it was some time

^7 around 3:30, four o'clock.

']g Q And what happened at that meeting?

^g A At that meeting, we — I went back into it and told

20 him more what I had learned, including the fact that I had now

21 talked with Mr. Poindexter and that he had confirmed my

22 information.

23 Q And what was the President's response to that?
2^ A And the President said — I believe it was that
25 evening that it jm»^_ important that we get the facts out and

^<M_i2ipoi^tant that we ge

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I think It was either that night or the next morning that
he said -- I think it was that evening, because one of the
things he had said the previous Friday was if I did find there
was anything wrong at all, we wanted to be sure that that
came out as quickly as possible.

6 Q Okay.

7 A And --

8 Q Do you recall, Mr. Meese, what was the rush on

9 getting the word out?

10 A Well, I think the main concern on Monday and then

11 again the next morning was to get the facts out so that there

12 would be no suspicion on anybody's part that we were trying to

13 conceal the facts or that there was anything being done to

14 cover it up and to get that out so that the Congress and the

15 public would know that the Administration was — had itself

16 discovered this and was getting the facts out to the public.

17 Q Was there any discussion of the material, the

18 information leaking before you could make your announcement?

19 A I don't think there was any — I don't recall any

20 specific discussion of it. The other things we talked about

21 on Monday afternoon was the President asked or we had a

22 discussion, I think he was raising it, as to whether

23 Poindexter should be relieved from duty. I think the

24 President suggested we think about it overnight emd get back

25 together again at nine o'clock in the morning. And it was

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1 at that time that I then met with Don Regan and we

2 discussed this in further depth. He again said that he knew

3 nothing about this and was very much concerned about it.

4 And that I ought to -- and then I think we both

5 agreed that I ought to also discuss it with the Vice President,

6 who was very surprised about uhe whole thing.

7 Q When you discussed Admiral Poindexter's resignation,

8 was Mr. Regan in favor of his resigning?

9 A I think that when we — I think there was no

10 question thfat he felt that that would have to happen, yes.

11 Q Did you feel likewise?

12 A I think I did, yes. Let me — I don't remember

13 whether I expressed it then to Mr. Regan or not, but I think

14 that there was no question in either of our minds that that

15 would be one of the things that the President would have to do

16 the next morning.

17 Q Along those same lines, was there a discussion on

18 Tuesday that included Colonel North and what would happen

19 regarding his future?

20 A I don't recall on Tuesday now, the 25th, that I

21 saw Colonel North or had any discussions with him on that

22 day. There were discussions with him by other people.

23 Q with whom? Do you know?

24 A I don't know who talked with him. It may have

25 been Don Regan. I have heard since that the President had a

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152

telephone call to him. Whether it was that day or not, I am
not sure.

Q Do you know whether or not it was discussed
whether or not Oliver North would be allowed to resign from
the NSC as Admiral Poindexter had?

A I have a vague recollection there was such a
discussion probably on Tuesday morning and I don't remember
the specifics, but I think the conclusion was that he ought
to be -- that awhile Admiral Poindexter should be allowed to
resign. Colonel North should be relieved from duty and sent
back to the Marine Corps .

Q Do you recall who was advocating that?

A I believe it was Don Regan, but I am not positive.

Q Did you concur with that?

A I don't know whether I concurred or not, because
at that stage, that aspect of it really was not within
my province to recommend or not recommend.

UNCLASSIfiP

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0 Do you know if anyone had given any assurances
to Colonel North that he would be allowed to resign
rather than being fired, so to speak?

A No. I did not know anything, and have no recollec-
tion of anything like that ever being discussed in my presence

O If we can jump a little back to the morning,
Tuesday morning, when you met with Mr. Casey early at his
home?

A Yes.

Q He said he had learned about the diversion from
Mr. Regan?

A Right.

Q And what did he tell you about the diversion?

A He just told me that the previous evening that
Don Regan had talked to him about the diversion and he
felt that something ought to be done, that Don Regan felt
something ought to be done immediately.

Q Did Director Casey communicate to you on that
occasion that he had asked North and Poindexter about it,
and they had denied it? Or was that

A At some point, he told me that, or I saw that in
the memoranda. I am not sure which it was, but I did
learn either from him directly or through the memos that he
had asked back when Furmark first talked to him, that he
had talked to Poindexter and, I believe, also to Notth, and

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154

that at least Poindexter and probably North, if he had talked
with him, also assured him there was nothing to what Furmark
had to say, what the Canadians were saying.

Q When

A Let me just add one other thing we talked about
at Mr. Casey's home that morning. That was the need to get
this out immediately. He was very adamant, as I was, that
we had to move quickly and make sure this got out as quickly
as possible.

Q J What were his reasons?

A The same as all the rest of us. That is the
President, Don Regan and myself. That is so it was clear
that it was the Administration itself that was bringing
this to public attention, and that there was no attempt
on anybody's part to conceal anything.

Q When precisely did you decide that a criminal
investigation was warranted?

A Well, on Monday afternoon, I had asked Chuck
Cooper to look over our facts and to determine whether
there was any basis at all to commence a criminal inquiry
and whether there were any possible criminal offenses involvd
because at that time there did not appear to be any apparent.

He did that, and came up with some ideas, which we
discussed, I believe the next day, when I came back from the
White House. It was at that time that I asked Bill Weld

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153

from the Criminal Division to come in and asked him if he would
get together with Chuck Cooper and determine whether there
was any possible basis for a criminal investigation. And he
then spent that afternoon, while I was — I guess -- I don't
know where I was on the 25th — I guess back at the white House
Because I next met with him — Yes. That-is right. I met
with Bill Weld then later that afternoon, and he had core
back and they had — and he indicated that while it might
be stretching, there were some possible offenses that might be
some criminal laws that might be involved.

So it was at that time that I asked the Criminal
Division to begin a regular investigation.

Q So at that time then, Tuesday afternoon is when
you decided that a criminal investigation was warranted?

A Yes , late Tuesday afternoon.

Q What fact led you to that conclusion?

A Well, it was, first of all, Mr. Cooper indicated
that there might be — there might probably be some criminal
offenses, criminal laws involved, and then that was enough
to indicate that we ought to have Bill Weld take a look at
it. He worked with his lawyers all afternoon and ccune up
with some possible areas where there might be criminal
violations involved, such as a constructive trust theory that
the money that was in excess profits from the Iranian arms
transaction might accrue to the United States undefa: an agency

157

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13
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or constructive trust theory and, therefore, there might
possible be a diversion — a criminal diversion of public
funds.

Q So in other words, the research on the criminal
area centered upon the diversion, not on the Iranian arms
sales themselves?

A That is right.

Q Okay.

A Although I think there may have been some aspects
of that that the Criminal Division came back with. They
came back with kind of a laundry list of possible statutes.
I think probably a dozen different statutes that night be
involved?

A So is it fair to say that the fact of the diversion
is what triggered in your mind the possibility that there may
be criminal violations?

A Yes- Particularly when I had learned that it
was an unauthorized diversion.

Q When i3 it then that you actually decided
to apply for independent counsel? And I am not skipping ahead.

A Once we started the criminal investigation, I
talked to, on, I think, Wednesday, to Bill Weld after the
criminal investigation had begun, or while it was in the
process of beginning, which was essentially on Wednesday,
and said that it was highly possible, probable evdn, that this

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15:

would involve an independent counsel because of White House
people being involved, and that they should view this as
the initial inquiry to determine whether a preliminary
investigation in the independent counsel process should be
invoked.

Q I guess I missed the answer to my question. When
was it that you decided to apply?

A Then they conducted such an inquiry and came
back to me the following week, which I believe was the 4th
of December, but it was some time that week.

Q That is when the application was made. I guess my
question is when did you decide in your own mind that, yes,
we are going to go for an independent counsel?

A In my own mind, the early part of that week.

Q Say, around December 1st or 2nd?

A Say, the 2nd, 1st or 2nd, yes. Because I think it
was probably on the 2nd that I talked to the Tower
Commission and it was on that day that I think I told them
that there was probably enough, for an independent counsel,
at least in my mind; and it was, I think, a day or two later-

MR. BOLTON: I think the public record reflects
your press conference was on December 2nd.

THE WITNESS: No. That was the 25th.

Oh, on the IC, What day was that?

MR. BOLTON: Tuesday, a week after the ofther one.

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19
20
21
22
23
24
25

159

THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. We filed the application
on the 4th. I announced on the 2nd. That is right.
BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q Obviously, you decided some time before the 2nd?

A Yes. It was probably the 1st or the 2nd. It was
really based upon the — it was based upon Bill Weld coming
to me and saying that they felt they had enough to proceed,
to aooly for an independent counsel, yes. So that was on
the 1st or 2nd.

Q Jf I can jump to a couple of other subjects quickly?
Oliver North, during his interview, mentioned that the bank
accounts for the contras were the same accounts that
foreign governments had used to give donations to the contras.
Were you aware of any foreign government contribution to the
contras at any time from 1984 through 1986?

A I don't recall that in Oliver North's statement
to us on Sunday, he said that they were the same accounts that
were used by foreign governments to give money to the contras,
and 1 don't believe I was aware of that at that time or any
tiwe during this period prior to the week of the 1st to 4th
of December. My recollection is that he said that three
accounts had been established for the contras and that money
had been — and that the Iranians had been directed or the
Israelis had been directed, one of the two, to put money

into those accounts.

nMCkftj^saaa^.

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23
24
25

Q Then let's get to the second half of the question.

Were you aware, either as counselor to the President during
that period of time, or subsequently as Attorney General, of
any foreign governments donating to the Nicaraguan Resistance?

A I don't recall being aware of that. It is possible
if it was in the newspaper, but I don't have any recollection
now of being specifically aware of that.

Q Okay.

So we have heard testimony that the President
met^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You know
about those meetings?

A I don't have any recollection of knowing about those
meetings at the time. I think that was during 1995 and 1936;
is that correct?

Q I think actaully before.

A Maybe it was in 1984. I don't have any — I don't
recall at this time that I knew about it. It is possible
that I did.

Q Oliver North, mentioned yesterday in his testimony
that — he had sought your assistance and that of the FB

which I assume is some sort of

regarding his meeting with

recall anything concerning his negotiations with them?
A It is possible that he did. I don't haVe any

liNfiJLA3^M

T?rTi

161

It is possible that that happened. I just don't
recall at this time.

Q Sure.

Do you have any personal recollection of
speaking to Colonel North about hisj

A NO. I don't recall, at this time, any such incident
happening.

Q Did you, either while you were at the White House,
or as Attorney General, participate in any fundraising
efforts for the contras?

A Not that I recall. No.

Q Did you ever direct potential contributors to
Oliver North.?

A Not that I recall. There was some newspaper
story about someone calling ray office and being directed
by my office to the National Security Councel staff and,
in turn, being referred to Colonel North, but I don't have
any recollection of it myself.

Q What, if anything, didyou know about Colonel North's
involvement in the contras resupply operations?

knew much a1»ut it at
'conversation in

.♦• «.<«•. Tt-"ll VAvrl)l*^<feijeH:al cc

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161

the' White House, or it may have been in the newspapers. I
really don't have any recollection specifically of what, if
anything, I knew about it.

Q Did you discuss with the President — now some time
after November 1986 -- the probable pardon or immunity for
Colonel North?

A Yes. There was a discussion in the middle of
December, some time between — some time around the 15th of
December, give or take a few days. We met with the President
at that tisne concerning grants of immunity, vrtiich came -up
on the President's own initiative. He asked about this in
the context of trying to get North and Poindexter to reveal
information.

I think at that time — I believe at that time they
had already appeared before committees of Congress and taken
the Fifth Amendment, and I don't remember a specific discussion
of a pardon. I think there was — it was kind of a meeting
that- I described when I talked to the House Committee, I
said it was a rolling meeting in that there was a kind of a genera:.
discussion of what can we do to get the facts out. And
the question said, what about immunity? I told the — I
think someone in the White House, perhaps, the White House
Counsel, had done a memorandum on this, and the President
asked me about it. I think that is how it came up.

And I advised the President that it is possible

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162

to grant immunity, that it should be what we call, "use
immunity," that is that — if it was going to be done at
all, that immunity should be granted only for the actual
testimony not being used against them, rather than transaction
immunity, that he would be given immunity from everything.

I made some corrections in the White House statement
on immunity that had been oreoared by someone there, and
also advised that any grant of use immunity should be
coordinated with the independent counsel, rather than just
done without having that been worked out.

Q Was it your position then that the Department of
Justice could grant Colonel North immunity despite the

independent counsel's

MR, BOLTON: Excuse me one second.
THE WITNESS; Well, the department could not, but
he could be granted use immunity, for example, by Congress,
but whether the President should urge that on the Congress was
something that I felt should be coordinated with the
independent counsel.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q So what you were discussing with the President was
simply congressional iraraunity?

A We were just discussing the subject generally.
It was not even at the point where we had a refined discussion
but someone_^t;.iIie White House had suggested that, and I belies

t_at the White House had s

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il discussion

had a general statement or memorandum on the subject, and
the President was asking me about it.

- 0 Did — were you aware of any efforts on the
part of Brendan Sullivan, the attorney for Colonel North,
to speak to the President?

A I don't recall being aware of it. It may have
been mentior«;d to me. I am not sure in this genera]
but I don't specifically recall that.

Q Did .Mr. Sullivan ever attempt to speak to you?

A ,' I believe there was a time when he did want to
talk to me and I discussed it with the independent counsel.
He wanted to discuss — talk to, either me or someone in
the department. I discussed it with the independent counsel,
and we decided that that would not be an appropriate thing
to do.

Q Was there any

A It was one of the lawyers anyway, I think it was
Brendan Sullivan.

Q vras there any discussion, either at the Department
of Justice, or anywhere in the Administration, of giving
Colonel North a pardon?

A Not that I recall.

Q Again, jumping- —

A Let me say this. Not that I recall in a serious
sense. There was also jocular conversation about pardons,

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and this sort of thing, but never in a serious sense.

Q Do you know whether anyone ever communicated to
Colonel North that he could expect a pardon?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Skipping to another topic, if I can. The Drug
Enforcement Agency was involved in efforts to gain intelligencd
to locate and extricate the hostages held in Lebanon?

A Yes.

Q When were you made aware of their efforts?

A At some point — and I can't remember the exact
time -- either John Poindexter, but I think it was Colonel
North, asked me for the authorization of the DEA to assist
in providing intellignece or locating persons who might
provide intelligence relating to where the hostages were
being held, and generally to provide information that might
be of assistance in having them — in getting them out
Lebanon. It was my — it is my recollection that there were
some agents who had been working in Lebanon, who had particular
information that was important, and I authorized Jack Lawn,
tbe Director of the Drug Enforcement Administration, to
provide that kind of intelligence assistance.

Q Did you authorize Mr. La%m in writing or did you
call him up?

A I believe it was verbally.

Q Were those agents to be assigned to the, NSC or

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166

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^j[(!i:!t

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jm 13

simply to cooperate?

A It would have been the NSC staff rather than the

NSC.

Q Yes.

A I don't remember the exact arrangements, but I
know that they were to be — that I authorized that they
be permitted to assist, and I don't remember the exact arrange-
ments that were made, if I knew at the time.

Q Was it your understanding these agents were to
have an o^rational role? '

A To the best of my recollection, they were to
provide intelligence, and assistance in obtaining informants,
rather than being engaged in any actual operations relating
to the rescue of the hostages.

Q Was there ever a finding prepared on their
activities, that is the DEA agents activities?

A No. I don't think there would be, because they
are not an intelligence agency.

Q Assuming for a moment ■— and I can represent the
committee has information that they were working in more of
an operational role, in terms of extricating hostages, would
that have required a finding?

A I don't know whether it would have or not. It
would depend upon the facts and circumstances of what they
did. If they were operating in an intelligence capacity

ONCLASSSFPin

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it would not require a finding.

Q If they were

- A If they were only gathering intelligence, it doesn't
require a finding. If they are A, an intelligence agency,
and B, involved in covert actions other than intelligence
gathering, it is possible a finding might be required. It
would have to depend upon the facts and circumstances.

Q In the case of the 1985 Hawk shipment, we know
that the CIA was involved in the transportation of the
equipment^ from Israel to Iran. Assuming the same facts
for DEA, that the DEA agents were involved in the trans-
portation or in locating transportation and coordinating
that transportation of the hostages, for instance, and their
extrication, would that activity, in your opinion, require
a finding?

MR, BOLTON: I'm not sure — this is an area of
sort of speculation and general legal finding.

THE WITNESS: I can't answer a hypothetical
question. Let me say that in the normal parlance of the
National Security agent, it relates to findings, it refers
to intelligence agencies, and I don't believe that the DEA
would be considered an intelligence agency within the meaning
of that section. But I would want to — it would depend
a lot on specific facts of a specific situation.

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BY MS. NAUGHTON: -•■ ■■ - -

Q Were you aware that private monies were going to
to pay^^^^^^^^^^^^^Rnd other people the
Middle East to gain the release of the hostages?

A I don't recall having that kind of detailed
information at the time, or as to what the details are.
I think there was a report at some point along the line in
which certain facts were provided to me, but I don't recall
now exactly what the circumstances were.

Q /> Do you recall the mention of $200,000 in private
monies being obtained to pay to bribe thel

A I don't recall that now, that I was told that.
As I say, it may be contained in a document.
Do we have that?

MR. MATTHEWS: I don't think we do.
BY MS. NAUGHTON: ' ' ' ' ;• •
Q General Meese, you indicated that you may have
received a document, perhaps, outlining something to that
effect. Can you recall? ' c-

A I may have seen a document at some point.

MR, BOLTON: There is such a document. It was
produced to the committee. We do not have it here now
because it is in a secure area.

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THE WITNESS: The question is at some point, I thxnk
fairly recently, I do recall seeing such a document.
BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q And do you recall the mention in that document of
private monies?

A I don't recall any of the details of the document
without seeing it,

Q Were you ever consulted regarding the use of
private monies to extricate the hostages?

A I don't recall being consulted on that subject.'

Q So you never gave any advice to anyone at the DEA
or the National Security Council staff regarding the use of
private monies as opposed to governir.ent monies to bribe

>r pay for the extrication of the hostages?

A I don't recall any such conversation. It is
possible that there was a discussion, but I don't recall it.

Q Do you recall whether or not you knew how the
expenses of the DEA agents were to be paid?

A I'm not sure that I recall even that there were
going to be expenses other than they were going to be
helping. It is possible it was discussed with me, but I
don't have a recollection of it now.

Q Did Colonel North ever tell you that some of their
expenses were paid from monies contributed for the Nicaraguan
Resistance?

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A I don't recall that that ever happened. No.

Q How often — when did Colonel North brief you on
how often?

A Well, my only recollection — there may have been
more discussions, but the only recollection I have was when
he asKed for the authorization to the DEA to provide that kind
of assistance.

Q And that was just to be for intelligence gathering?

A Well, it was to provide assistance, and my recoIlecti(
is it was to help them locate informants in Lebanon that might
be able to assist with the rescuing of the hostages.

Q Do you know whether or not the President was
apprised of the activities of DEA in that regard?

A I don't recall whether he was or not. I don't
recall — I don't believe that I ever talked with him. At
least I can't remember talking with him about it, and I
don't know whether anyone else did.

Q Did you know of Ross Perot's involvement in
this?

A I believe I had heard mention of Ross Perot
being either possibly involved, or being asked to become
involved in the efforts to locate the hostages, but I don't
remember anything specific about his involvement.

Q Do you remember being told that he was going to

donate money

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A I can't specifically recall that, although it is
possible I was told something along that line.
MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you.
Those are my questions.

MR. BOLTON: If there is a point to shift,
this might also be a convenient point to adjourn to the
Command Center so they can set this room up.
We can go off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Bri^f recess.)

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(Back on the record.)

MR. LEON: Let the record reflect we are getting
back -on the record, and it is about 3:08 p.m., on the
8th of July.

Ms. Naughton has cut off her questions, even
though I understand she has many more, in order to allow
the House and the Senate counsel to get some questioning
in before our, at least right now, tentative arrangements
to adjourn at 5 o'clock, with the possibility, perhaps,
we might bfe able to prey upon the Attorney General for an
hour or two at a later time, if need be.

We are going to try to wrap this up at 5 o'clock
this afternoon. I will try to be done in less than an
hour.

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE

BY MR. LEON:
Q Mr, Attorney General, let me go back over some of
the areas, not in any way as near great detail since Pam
has done a thorough, complete job here.

Let me just ask you some questions on some
certain points that have arisen along the way. With regard
to November 7, Mr. Cooper has testified that it was at
that time in '86 that you asked him to get himself ready to
be of assistance in reviewing possible issues. At that
point, what was your sense of what kind of probleijis he was

t was your sense or wnac »

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being brought in to work on?

A My best recollection is that some time prior to
the "Tth, I had been asked by John Poindexter to make
available legal assistance, because in my request to Mr.
Cooper I mention that he would probably be contacted by, or
would be in touch with womraander Paul Thompson, who was
the assistant to Mr. Poindexter. And I think it had to
do generally with legal matters pertaining to the Iranian
initiative, which in my mind, at that time, had to do with
such thingi as the use of the National Security Act as opposed
to the Arms Export Control Act for the transfer of weapons,
matters pertaining to the ability of the President to
proceed, and delaying notification of Congress, things such
as that.

Q Can you recall if in your discussion with Admiral
Poindexter, the question came up whether or not Mr. Wallison
and his office would also be involved or not be involved?

A I can't recall specifically, but my best recollection
is probably they wanted the assistance from the Justice
Department, inasmuch — and I don't remember whether this
was specifically discussed, but as a matter of general
practice, the basic legal advice on national security
affairs comes from the Office of Legal Counsel in the
Department of Justice.

Q Now, with regard to the President's press

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conference on the 19th of November 1986, you testified you
watched part of it and listened to part of it?

A That is my best recollection. I know l was
familiar with much of the news conference.

Q Was it his performance that evening that prompted
you t'^ want to be there on the next day for that upcoming
session to review anticipated testimony before the Congress?

A Well, it was the fact that he had not, apparently,
had the accurate information as to the involvement of
third cou/ntries, in this case, Israel, that led me to talk
with John Poindexter that evening, and then Admiral
Poindexter in turn advised me there would be a meeting the
next day, and I believe indicated that, invited me to
attend.

Q When you went there, if you can recall, did you
have any sense or impression before you got there, to
the meeting, that the events of that preceding evening,
in terms of the President's preparation that he had been
given, et cetera, might raise a doubt in your mind as to
the accuracy of the chronologies Mr. Cooper had been getting
up until that point? ^ -^

A No. When I got there I didn't have any such
feeling. I didn't know much about the chronologies he had
been getting, and it was more a matter to be available to
answer any and discuss any legal aspects of the thing that

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might come up on that day, and also just generally to
contribute to making sure we had the best possible testimony.

- Q And, simply, when you left the meeting that day,
on the 20th, were you leaving with an imoression, as far
as the facts go, and the anticipated testimony as well as
the chronologies, it was in pretty good shape?

A Yes, that was my impression when I left the
meeting some time between 3 and 4 o'clock.

Q Now, Judge Sofaer's deposition, I don't know
if you ha^e had a chance to read it-—

A I have not.

Q There are references in it to what he recalls
saying to Mr. Burns in his conversation with Mr. Burns
that afternoon. I believe in his recounting of it, he
recounts Mr. Burns telling him, after speaking with you
supposedly, that Mr. Bums said something to the effect
that you had supposedly told Burns you knew of some special
facts that would clear this whole thing up as to any dis-
agreements. Do you recall making any statement of that
nature to Mr. Burns to relay to Judge Sofaer?

A I don't have a specific recollection of what 1
said, but in reconstructing what occurred, I believe that
Mr. Burns was somewhat inhibited, and I was somewhat
inhibited talking freely about tfils over the phone, either
because I was on the phone, we certainly were not* on a

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secure phone, and the impression I got was that the State
Department was concerned about their being different
versions or inconsistencies in people's recollections of
the events, and since we had corrected that sort of thing
by bringing together the views of different people, I had
assumed that was the problem they had seen in reviewing
Mr. Casey's testimony and, therefore, transmitted the
message back through Mr. Burns that we had taken care of
that, because I had just come out of such a session in
which everybody seemed to be, everybody that seemed to'
know anything about it seemed to agree that the version
Mr. Casey was prepared to testify to was an accurate depiction
of what had occurred.

Q As far as you knew as to the events Judge Sofaer
would be relaying to you, I mean Mr. Burns would have been
relaying to you, that would have been the first time he
would have had any exposure to those areas of concern?

A Yea. Mr. Burns didn't have this knowledge of this
in general, other than what he may have been told by Mr.
Sofaer. ,> ''^'

Q After the events of y^^t* ev^Aing, November 20,
when you finally Woke to Mr. Cooper and he relayed to you
the concern of the State Department and their version
versus the Shultz version and, of course, the errors that
would be if the pre-agreed upon testimony went fotward, did

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you at that point, Mr. Meese, feel that perhaps the accuracy
of the chronologies you had been getting to that date were
now in question? ' ' '

A I didn't question the accuracy of the chronologies
in the sense somebody was deliberately trying to provide,
inaccurate information. It was rather the fact that you
had different people who had different nieces of information
and that they did not all jibe, because of the fact that
different people were looking at this from different vantage
points, ^nd had different experiences in regard to what had
occurred.

Q So when you asked the President for permission to
proceed with an investigation on Friday morning, the 21st,
you were not, if I understand you correctly, proceeding
on an investigation because you thought the President or
other members of his cabinet were being lied to, but rather
to straighten out what appeared to be inconsistencies
and confusion?

A That is correct. First of all, I didn't consider
it an investigation, but rather a fact-finding review,
because it didn't appear to be anything to investigate per se,
and it was a matter, in my thinking, that because this project
had been so highly compartmentalized, that different people
had small parts of the information, and it was important to
put together what everybody knew so that there vrotild be a

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coherent account, so first of all, the President would
know what happened, as he obviously had not been thoroughly
briefed, as reflected in the news conference Wednesday night.
And secondly, so that any testimony that was given would be
completely accurate.

Q So when you selected, anu I believe it was your
selection, to meet with Mr. McFarlane first among the
witnesses that you were going to meet with, you were not,
at the time you made that decision, you were not viewing
him as sopieone who was likely to be misleading or dishonest
in any way in stating the facts, you weren't viewing him
from that vantage point, were you?

A No.

Q In fact, were you proceeding on the presumption
he would tell you the best truthful story, to the best of
his knowledge and recollection?

A Yes.

Q Before getting to anything regarding the McFarlane
interview that afternoon, let me just ask you this, with
regard to that day, November 21, do you have any recollection
of meeting with Ollie North or talking with Ollie North
personally on that day?

A No, I do not recall meeting or talking with him
on that day.

Q So if Ollie North has said to someone a't some

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point that he spoke with you and asked you for 24 to 48
hours to get his records in a state of preparation to be
reviewed by you and your people, that wouldn't affect your
recollection one way or the other?

A No, I don't recall any such conversation.

Q But you do recall speaking with Admiral Poindexter?

A I do recall speaking with Admiral Poindexter on
at least two occasions that day. One, I talked with
him, obviously, in the President's office, and possibly
talked with him earlier that day in order to obtain that
appointment and, secondly, perhaps, thirdly, I talked with
him later on in the afternoon seeking or advising him that
we would be sending people over the next day to review the
documents and asking for a point of contact, which he
designated as Paul Thompson.

Q One last point on that meeting of the 21st with
the President. Donald Regan was present, as you testified?

A Yes.

Q As Mr. Cooper has indicated, the Legal Counsel
to the President, Peter Wallison, was aware the evening
before of this conflict between the Secretary of State's
recollection of events and Mr. McFarlane's recollection of
events?

A Yes.

Q Did you have any sense when you were atf that meeting

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Friday morning, Mr, Meese, that Donald Regan had already
been apprised by Mr. Wallison that there was this conflict
and_ that was the reason why you were coming?

A I don't have any recollection that I was, that I
got that impression, or that I knew about it at the time.

Q Did the President raise the point that he had
spoken with Secretary Shultz the evening before about the
conflict?

A He may have, I can't remember now whether he
did or no^.

Q You were aware of it at that point, when you
went into the meeting, Shultz had met with the President
the night before, were you not?

A I don't recall whether I was or not. I think
I may have been. Mr. Cooper may have told me, I am not
positive.

0 Certainly, by Saturday morning?

A Yes, by Saturday morning, Mr. Shultz told me
by that time — by the end of the interview, I knew.

Q What was it he told you in the interview he had
talked to the President about Thursday evening?

A He indicated to me he had talked to the President
and indicated there was more information and that he had
known about ~ that the arms shipments had been discussed
with him at the time of the Geneva conference, the Geneva

UMfUSllSlW

181

summit. Now, to go into more detail — I don't know how
much of this he said he told the President, but he went
through a great deal of detail about that with me, including
the fact he had been told there was going to be a shipment
of arms by Israel and that we were likely to get our
hostages back, and also I think he also told me, and I
would have to check this, but I believe he told me that
he was later told by Bud that it had not occurred.

Q Later been told by Bud?

A J Let me check this. Let me find that out here.

Let's see, it is the meeting with George Shultz.
Yes.

Q There is a reference at the bottom of the first
page of the notes I think you are referring to,"GS Thursday
night"?

A Yes. George Shultz said Thursday night he went
to the White House residence to see the President, and said
some of the statements won't stand up to scrutiny, and he
advised that McFarlane had come to him and told him of a
transaction. And the President said he knew of it, but
didn't understand it as arras for hostages, but as part of
a larger plan. And then George Shultz repeated the Geneva
conversation to Charlie Hill, and Charlie Hill made notes, and
that goes back to what Hill had said, and Hill said the plane
would go from Israelj^^^^Vf the hostages released

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191

it would go to Iran, if not, it would go back to Israel, and
that the United States would be at^vised^^^^^B^^^^H^^^
hostages were released.

This is relating to the conversation that took
place at Geneva. Shultz said it was a very bad idea,
didn't think it would work. He said he was consulted and
told, but it was not presented to him. for approval or
disapproval.

Q Did he give you the impression he was upset with
Mr. '

A He was upset. I got the impression it was one of
many things happening in a fast-moving situation at the
summit. George said he thought it didn't happen, he thought
what he had been told was going to happen didn't happen,
because no hostages were released, so he assumed the arms
tramsfer had not gone through from Israel.

Q Did you ask. him, do you recall, why he didn't
go and tell the President he was upset about it?

A At that tine?

Q At that tine.

A I would imagine because he had told ffud that he
thought it was a bad Idea and that it was an Israeli
operation rather than ours, and that—

Q He assumed Bud would tell the President?

A Also, I imagine — I don't remember specifically

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whe-ther he said he t^uqhl Bud would tell the President or
not. In any event, I don't — we just didn't have any
discussion about whether he would tell the President or not,
or why he did or didn't tell the President at that time.
And, again, I think in my own nind, I assumed it was because
of all the things happening with the summit. This was not
one of the things you would want to add to the President's
burdens while he was preparing for a summit discussion.

Q I can't recall — when you went to see Director
Casey thap evening, Saturday evening, was there any reason
you didn't bring a notetaker with you that evening?

A Yes. It was just a casual visit. He said he had
something he wanted to talk with me about. I didn't view
that as the more formal interviews we had had with some of
the other people we were meeting with.

Q So, it wasn't part of the inquiry you were doing
at that time?

. A W«ll, it was touching base with him, but it was not
a formal interview as such.

Q And you anticipated there would be another one
at a later point?

A I had anticipated we would do that as we went

along.

Q Now, with regard to the meeting with North the

following day.

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A Yes.

Q The notes of that interview indicate that you
began — Mr. Richardson's notes — I believe that they
indicated, if you have a copy there in front of you,
that you gave him, at the very beginning of your interview
with him you gave him an a''"ionition with regard to the
President and with regard to the best way to deal with the
matter at hand.

Look at the notes and refresh your recollection
and tell us what it was you told him.

A I was trying to explain why we were doing all this,
for one thing. And I said we wanted to get all the facts
from everyone who was involved and flesh out the different
recollections, that I had talked to the President and John
Poindejcter about this.

I said the worst thing that could happen is if
so.Tieone tries to conceal something to protect themselves
or the President, or try to put a good spin up, and we
want nothing that anyone can call a cover up, and so we
want to know what happened early on. And the reason for that
was basically that was, this was a top news item, this was
a matter tliat was of considerable congressional concern
already, as indicated by the fact there had already been
testimony in briefings taking place, and in my own mind,
as well as in the President's mind, the worst thing that

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could happen was to compound whatever political damage
there might be from this initiative, which had not been
successful, would be compounded if anyone could then
claim there was some kind of a cover up, and that is why
we felt it very important to get all the truth out and to
make sure that everybody was either testifying later on
in Congress, or making public statements, that they were being
absolutely factual.

Q Mr. Richardson's notes of that meeting indicate
that around the very first page, which is an exhibit for
Oliver North, OLN-14 — now, is that essentially what you
also had told Mr. McFarlane on Friday evening when you
had that little side conversation at the end?

A That was essentially the sane thing, although
I didn't go into quite as much volxime of it. That was
essentially the seune thing, right.

Q Now, with regard to the interview itself, at any
time in the course of that interview, did Colonel North
ask you for his rights

A No.

Q his constitutional rights to be given to him?

A No.

Q In specific, after being shown the diversion
memo, did he at any point, after having been shown that and
questionedby you, make any comment to you or the others there.

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"Doe^ this count since you haven't given me my rights?'

A I don't recall any such statement, no.

0 Do you recall, in reviewing the notes, any reference
in the notes anywhere? I don't believe you will find any.
I just want to test your recollection.

A I don't recall that, and Z don't see it anywhere
in the notes, no. ■ \.

Q Directing your att«ntion to page 19 of the notes,
I believe at that point you were still present, the notes
indicating on the following page the, "^G left at 4:05"?

A Yes.

Q At the point at page 19, you were still present?
At that point it appears from looking at the notes that
there was some discussion with regard to another potential
problem, problematic area, and the discussion raises the
problem of under Iranian law the advanced payment is permitted
and that there were t%io individuals, GORB, which I presume
means Ghorbanifar and Khashoggi, who were raising money
and might have complaints about nonpayment. Do you recall
that being discussed with Colonel North before you left?

A Z don't recall it specifically now, but I see from
the notes it apparently was, yes.

Q I notice in looking at this portion of the notes,
there is no notation with regard to the name "Purmark."
in any way, shape or form? •

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, Q Do you know if the n2L'Tie "Furmark" or the Furmark-
related incidents Mr. Casey had told you about the preceding
evening had come up in the context of that discussion.

Q I don't recall that the name "Furmark" came up,
no. But, of course, when he said this I was familiar with
the general situation he was describing.

Q Was there any reason, if you can recall, when you,
in response to hearing this story being raised by North,
didn't counter with, well, are you feuniliar with the Furmark
situation and Director Casey?

A There was probably a practical reason.

Q What was that?

A And that was I had to leave at 4 o'clock, and,
as you can see, I left at 4:05. I had to pick someone up
from the airport. That was not a particularly big thing,
so I didn't go into it any further.

Q There wasn't a tactical reason?

A There was no factual reason for not mentioning
it, no.

Q You didn't see by not mentioning it any harm to
the inquiry you were conducting, the fact-finding mission
you were conducting, did you?

A No.

Q Now, with regard also to- —

A Inasmuch as I had that information from;Mr, Casey

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and I don't believe when I talked with Mr. Casey there was
anything that he said that would lead me to believe
Mr. "North knew anything about it.

Q That was my next question.

Upon speaking with Casey, had he mentioned any
involvement between Mr. North and Furmark, or even
North's knowledge of this Furmark problem?

A I don't recall that he did, and I don't believe
he did.

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< 8

Q Referring you to page 8 of those notes that you
have there in front of you, there is a notation about a
third of the way down the page that begins, "When learned
Hawks NOR-CIA,"? It appears to be a reference to a question
as to what he did when he learned about the Hawks being
part of the "hipraent. Then there is a question mark, who,
and then iu says, "perhaps directly to Casey." Did you
come away with the impression from your interview. that
North had mentioned to Casey the fact that there were
Hawks oii the plane prior to January of 1986, in that'
November -Dec ember time period when the findings were being
worked on that he had talked to Casey about Hawks?

A No. I can't remember precisely but from the notes
I would say that he went to the CIA, somebody in the CIA,
yes. Did he get — perhaps it got directly to Casey, but
it appears to me he got to McMahon who sent him to the
lawyers because the following discussion is about McMahon
not being happy, HcMahon, and then he said McMahon can't
stand him and he blames him for the Nicaraguan mining, so
he wouldn't call McMahon. I see, so — I asked the question,
"Did you go to McMahon who sent you to the lawyers?" And
he said, "McMahon was not happy so I wouldn't have called
McMahon." So whether he called Casey or not, I don't know
and he wasn't sure whether it had gotten directly to Casey.
That was ambiguous from the notes as to whether he went to

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"^LK 5A 1 somebody else at CIA and that it may have gotten directly

2 2 to Casey.

3 Q When you left that meeting on Sunday, did you

4 have any clear sense as to whether or not Colonel North had

5 informed Director Casey of the Hawks, the existence of the
« Hawks and the plane?

7 A I don't believe that I did.

8 Q Did your discussions with regard to the finding

9 during that meeting and the need for a November finding come

10 up in that meeting?

11 A I'm not sure whether we discussed findings with

12 him or not.

13 Q Was it your testimony earlier today the first

14 time you thought findings came up was at the November 10th

15 meeting, that Poindexter raised it at that November 10th
1g meeting with the NSC, NSPG?

^7 AX think I would have to look at those notes, but

18 I think the firet time that — I'm sure that the findings

19 came up had to do with the meeting with Sporkin, the inter-

20 view with Sporkin on Saturday morning. Whether they had

21 also come up, the need for--you mean the preparation of a

22 finding by CIA?

23 Q Ves. Pre-January 1986, the November 1986 finding.

24 A A finding before that — let me take a look at those

25 notes and see if it came up there. Yes. Well, no, the

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190

reference to a finding there had to do with the 17th of
January 1986 finding.

Q What I'm trying to focus you on is the first time
you had definitely heard about the pre-January finding to
cover the Hawk shipments situation in November.

A The first time I specifically remember it is in
the discussions with Mr. Sporkin on —

Q Saturday morning?

A — the 22nd, Saturday, yes.

Q ' And do you recall in that interview Sporkin
indicating he had spoken with Casey about the need for a
finding and the importance of having some kind of a finding
done by the CIA?

A Let me just refresh my recollection. I have the
notes of that meeting.

Q Okay.

A It was Mr. Sporkin 's recollection that he had,
that th« information had been provided to him through the
•f forts of Mr. MaMahon. And he told McMahon it should be
used, and I don't see anything that related to that finding
where he talked about dealing with Mr. Casey on it. It
looked like it was Mr. McMahon. But he did talk with Mr.
Casey about a finding in regard to January, at or about the
5th or 6th of January of 1986.

Q I guess >*hat^r 1^1, tjryinq._,toaet at, Mr. Meese,

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4

IS when you finished with North on Sunday afternoon, were
you at that time acting under a belief that Casey was aware
prior to January 1986, Director Casey, that there had been
Hawks on that, in that November shipment, Hawks on that
plane?

A I don't recall specifically, but my best recollec-
tion is that I did not know, that I did not form an opinior.
that Mr. Casey had been aware at or about November of 1985
of the shipment of Hawks. My best recollection is, and I
think this is accurate, that he was away from the CI.A at
that time and that is why Mr. McMahon was the one who was
gone to.

Q With respect to Mr. North and with respect to Mr.
Poindexter, after the North interview there clearly would
have been, certainly, information now in your possession to
indicate that McFarlane and Poindexter and North all knew
before January 1986 of Hawks on that plane. Wouldn't that
be true? North acknowledged it himself.

A North indicated that he had learned about that.
And I'm trying to — I had better refresh my recollection now
as to how he learned about that.

Q I think he indicated in his testimony to you that
he had been told by Secord.

A He had been told by Secord, yes, now I recall.
Right. So he knew.

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Q North knew?

A He knew.

Q McFarlane knew because he told Shultz?

A McFarlane, I think he couldn't remember whether
it was Hawks, he didn't remember telling Shultz it was
Hawks. He couldn't remember that conversation. But, if
you put what Shultz together with what hcFarlane said, you
would form that impression he knew it was Hawks, yes.

Q And as to Poindexter, had North informed you that
Poindextter--let me direct your attention to page 25 o'f the
notes. At that point, you were no longer in the interview.

A I wasn't there any longer, so I'm not sure whether
I knew Poindexter knew about it or not.

Q On page 2 5 of the notes I believe it indicates--

A I see.

Q At the bottom.

A The question is asked do you think it was oil
equipment. He said, "No, I thought it was munitions," told
McFarlane and Poindexter and they said, "Go to it." CIA
was not told and CIA was told by North it was oil equipment.

Q So, if North and McFarlane and Poindexter, at
least according to what you have at that point, might have
known there were people themselves who knew prior to January
1986 in the U.S. Government that there had been Hawks on
that shipment, thefltthat .yo^ldj hav^. b««^^a direct contradic-

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tion of what you had been told just three days before at the
November 2 0th meeting when North proposed the language that
you wrote in--

A Ves, that is correct. -• ^

Q — on the insert? :.'- . :.-..

A That is correct

Q And. when Po^ndexter sat by and suggested it

shouldn't be chamged?

A Yes.

Q ; And Director Casey might have possibly known?

A At that point, I had no reason to believe he did
other than North's statement it might have gotten up to Case^

Q When you spoke with McFarlane the next day, did
he confirm any change, did he have any change of mind?

A I don't believe I talked with him about the Hawk
thing. By that time my focus was more on the diversion of
funds rather than on the Hawk situation.

Q How about with regard to Mr. Poindexter? When
you spoke with him?

A I did not talk to him about the Hawks.

Q Again, you were focusing —

A I was focusing on the diversion of funds.

Q When you spoke with the President on Monday the
24th and informed him of your discovery in the diversion

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Admiral, Admiral Poindexter had authorized it?

A I don't recall that he did. I told him in the
afternoon that Poindexter knew about it, and i had specific-
ally/ because I had not yet touched base with Poindexter, I
specifically had not asked for Poindexter to be

at th«» meeting in the morning or in the afternoon.

Q Was there--

A But I don't recall the President asked whether
Poindexter had authorized it. I told him in the afternoon
what Poindexter had said to me. In the morning our conver-
sation was cut short, so we didn't have a chance to go into
it entirely.

Q Poindexter hadn't said to you that he had author-
ized it?

A No.

Q He just acknowledged knowing about it. He
acknowledged to me he knew about it and, in effect, had
allowed it to go forward.

Q Did that constitute to you a signal of authoriza-
tion from him to North?

A Well, it was certainly, the fact that he knew
about it and allowed it to go forward was certainly
acquiescence in it going forward and that was, in my mind,
the reason why he said he knew when this all became

public he would pr9^a^X%&*^V52^^^^^-
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Q Shifting back to one question, one more question
on the Sporkin area, did Judge Sporkin indicate to you
Saturday morning, when you interviewed him, that he had been
told by Admiral Poindexter that the November 26th finding
had been signed by the President? Do you recall if he told
you that?

A I will have to look here. I just don't have any
recollection. And I don't find anything at this point on
the notes that would indicate whether that initial finding
had been signed or not.

My best recollection is I have never heard from
anyone that the finding was, in fact, signed.

Q Did Deputy Director McMahon ever indicate to
you or did anyone indicate to you, he had been told it had
been signed?

A I don't recall that he did or that anyone told me
that and, as a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge,
this has never been found in any records, so there has been
no discovery of a signed finding.

Q The December 7th, 1935 meeting that you have heard
reference to, I am sure on numerous occasions, you were not
present at that meeting were you?

A No, I was in Switzerland at that time, in Europe.

Q Were you ever informed by Admiral Poindexter or
anyone el8e,foi; that matter, that Admiral Poindexter wanted

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Oliver North to touch bases with you on the November 26th
proposed finding?

A No.

Q When you brought, when you went over in early
January to review the January 17th finding that was being
worked on that ultimately was signed and you were reviewing
it, as I recall you didn't bring any other attorney with
you from the Department of Justice, is that correct?

A That is correct.

Q ) Was there any particular reason why you didn't
bring Mr. Cooper along or anyone of your other staff
attorneys?

A Yes. Because this was such a sensitive project
that my recollection was I was the only one they wanted over
there.

Q Had you been directed to come alone, or I should
say, asked to come alone by Admiral Poindexter?

A I don't remember — it was certainly implicit this
was a closely held type of thing.

Q With regard to the November 10th meeting — I'm
going to bounce around a little bit here — with regard to
the November 10th meeting that you referred in your notes
to before--

A Cjm I have the November 10th notes?

Q Was thatt ,a NSC or. NSPG meeting?

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A My notes indicate it was a National Security
meeting, which means that it was of people--it was just
who was there.

Q Can you tell us who was there?

A My notes indicate who was there and it was not
a National Security Council meeting, it was not a NS^-"
meeting, it was what I described as a National Security
meeting in the Oval Office, which was a special type of
meeting and the people who were there include, the
President, George Shultz, John Poindexter, Bill Casey,
Don Regan, Casper Weinberger, Al Keel, who at that time was
the deputy to John Poindexter, and myself. A total of nine
people. -

Q Jumping back to the 20th, the events of the 20th,
Mr. Cooper has testified that Peter Wallison later that
afternoon, after you had left for Westpoint, indicated to
him great displeasure not being asked to that meeting on
the 20th.

A Yes. I understand he testified to that.

Q Had that been relayed to you, Mr. Wallison' s
feelings about not having been included at that particular
event?

A I'm not sure whether it had been or not.

Q with respect to your meeting with George Webster
on the 21st, when he was still Director of the FBI at that

i was still Director of

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time, is it your recollection that you asked him or that he
volunteered the assistance of the FBI?

A I can't recall for sure, but I think he may have
said, "Well the FBI is available if you need it." And then
we discussed this in terms of whether there was any criminal
predicate for bringing the FBI in and whether the President
could be criticized for using thw FBI for non-criminal
purposes. In other words, that he would be criticized or
we would be criticized for making, in essence, a political
use of the FBI because it was for purposes not connected
with the violation of criminal laws.

Q When you spoke with Secretary Weinberger over
the weekend, were those secure phone calls?

A No, they were open phone lines.

Q You were satisfied after talking with him that
you didn't need to go to the next step and either meet
with him personally or —

A Well, I planned to meet with him later on, but
I felt that it was not necessary to do that on Saturday,
partially because, I think, in the course of our conversatior
it appeared to me there wasn't any t>articular urgent
information that he had that I didn't already have and,
secondly, that his wife was in the hospital and I didn't
wamt to inconvenience him on that day or that weekend.

saw

Q With relf«^'nU> ,t»^/^d«ii;^j*|hich you

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1 witnesses, a couple of questions in that area, we already

2 went over the point about McFarlane and why you chose to

3 see him first and your investigation. The decision you made

4 to see the President on Monday morning, before seeing

5 Admiral Poindexter, can you just explaim ■ to us why it

6 was, without hav-ng had his confirmation, he was aware of

7 the diversion since he was the superior of Oliver North,

8 why you went ahead to see the President without first being

9 certain that he was aware of it?

10 A I can't remember precisely why that happened.

11 It was probably — there were other things I had to do that

12 morning and I wanted to get to the President as quickly as

13 possible.

14 Q You were sufficiently satisfied at that point

15 that there had been a diversion that had taken place , and

16 that Oliver North's superior at least. Admiral Poindexter,

17 was aware of it and you wanted to determine whether the

18 President was aware of it or not?

19 A Well, I wanted to let the President know and,

20 obviously, I had assumed that he was not aware of it from

21 what Oliver North had told me.

22 Q So you didn't see that putting in any way at

23 risk, your inquiry you were going to see the President

24 before seeing Admiral Poindexter?

25 A No. As a matter of fact, it was consistent with

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It because, at that stage, I wanted to get the information tq
the President and, of course, as i mentioned earlier, i
made sure it was just the President and Don Regan, and
because of the possible involvement, made sure that Poindex-
ter was not there.

Q Now, there were PROF notes that indicate as late
as Monday evening Admiral Poindexter and Colonel North were
proposing an understanding or assumption, on both of their
parts, perhaps erroneous, that North would be able to
resign father than be fired, and if that's accurate, -then
it appears that the decision, the ultimate decision to fire
North occurred on Tuesday morning. Do you have any
recollection —

A That is my best recollection, and that was made
after we had met with the President at 9 o'clock.

Q Who recommended that to the President?

A I believe it was Don Regan; that he be relieved
or duty and returned to the Marine Corps. Firing has a
little different connotation here because firing, normally,
means a person is out of a job. In this case it was a
matter of transferring him back to the Marine Corps.

Q I used the word because he used it in his
testimony yesterday. You viewed it as a reassignment?

A That is right. Getting him out of the White House

Q Let me close with this and then my Senate colleagu

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can get his shot at bat here. I asked Mr. Cooper a
question to the effect to try to state for the record,
to give him an opportunity to state for the record some sensd
of what it was like to be in the middle of this rapidly
developing set of events and the exigency of it and the
gravity of it. I would offer you the same opportunity
for the record. General Meese, to give some sense of the
enormity of what you were doing, the pace at which you
were operating and the seriousness of it during that hectic
three-diy period, because there will be Monday morning
quarterbacking, as you well know, for years to come on
this. I would close with that opportunity for you to
take.

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A I thought it was a very serious matter. i was very
concerned and disappointed that people had violated, if you
will, or certainly misused their positions and had done
things that were not authorized and opposed to the policies
of the President.

And I was very much concerned, particularly, that
this matter be made public as rapidly as possible and
that since there had been wrongdoing, at least in the sense
of not following the President's directions or doing things
that were not authorized, that this be — that there be
absolutely nothing done that would give any appearance of a
cover-up.

And so most of the things that were done were done
with that in mind, to get the facts to the attention of the
Congress, to the attention of the public as rapidly as
possible and then to take the necessary actions, first of
all, that the President would make clear that the people
who were involved would be releaved of duty.

Secondly, in the course of our conversations that
he take the necessary steps to make sure that this would
not happen again, which would involve the appointment of the
Tower Commission, a special review board, and thirdly,
that we take the necessary steps to be sure that if there was
any wrongdoing in a criminal sense that this was looked at
also.

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I had already started those wheels in motion on
Monday and then we continued with the involvement of the
Criminal Division initially to inquire whether there was a
justification for them to become formally involved and turning
it over to a criminal investigation and ultimately seeking
an independent counsel.

Q Were you satisfied the three people on your team
that you were directing were working as hard as they could
and as best as they could to get to the bottom of this
matter?

A Absolutely. That was our whole purpose was to
initially get the facts and to see what was actually going
on and then as we determined that the unauthorized activities
had taken place to be sure we got to the bottom of that and
got that information out as quickly as possible.

Q Is it safe to assume it is your testimony you did
the best you could personally in conducting and overseeing
this investigation, not investigation, but this fact-
finding inquiry?

A Yes. As a matter of fact, I think that is
substemtiated by the fact that we got to the bottom of the
entire scheme and when I revealed it to the public on the
25th of November that the basic outlines of what was involved
have continued to prevail through now several months of
detailed investigate) ^ ^ WtfW U 'I'J! ' jNi"'' P«ople, the

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Tower Commission, the committees on the Hill, the Select
Committee now, and so on, and the basic situation as we
revealed on that day still prevails as what happened.

Now, there has been a lot of additional information
as to bank accounts and extrapolations of other things to fill
out the bare bones of what we presented, but the essential
scheme that we presented on that day of what had happened
still remains intact as an accurate portrayal of what occurred.

Q Let me take this opportunity for the House Minority
to thank you for your generous time today, and noting for the
record it is 3:58, I turn it over with no further ado
to my colleague from the Senate.

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Take «6

BY MR. MC
Q With a little bit of luck, we will be out of here

by 5:00 o'clock. ' ■

Let me get a little bit of background, if I could,
on your rola and status with the NSC and NSPG in general.
You have ueen a member of the NSC for how long?

A I have been a member of the NSC since the first day
in office when the President asked me to serve as his
counselor. One of the duties that he provided or asked me
to undertake, or it was agreed I would do, was be a member
of the NSC as an appointed member of the President. By a
member of the NSC, that includes being a member of the NSPG.

Q You have drawn a distinction between the NSC and
NSC staff. Would you elaborate on that?

A The National Security Council — let's go back --
was initially composed in 1981 of the statutory members, the
President, the Vice President, the Secretary of Defense, and
the Secretary of State; the two statutory advisors, the
Director of Central Intelligence, and the Chairman of the
Joint Chiefs of Staff, and two appointed members: Jim Baker
and myself as counselor to the President.

in 1985, when I left the White House, the Presiden
asked me to continue as a member of the National Security
council. He also asked Jim Baker, as the Secretary of the
Treasury, to continue, and he asked Don Regan, as the new

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Chief of Staff, to 'continue, to become a member of the Nationc
Security Council. There was no one who took my place per
se as counselor to the President, so the National Security
Council was then composed of nine members.

Q And that would be the National Security Council —
A Then the staff, there is a staff headed by
Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs,
who in 1981 was Dick Allen, in 1982 was Bill Clark, in

sometime later, but was present in 1985, was Bud

McFarlane, and in 1986 was John Poindexter, and it is
presently Frank Carlucci.

Q Are there regularly scheduled meetings of the NSPG
and NSC? Do they fall on certain days of the week?

A They generally fall on — there is generally at
least one, sometimes two, and occasionally three meetings a
week of the National Security Council or National Security
Planning Group.

Q Is there a regular day for them?

A There is not a regular day, but usually they fall
on Tuesdays and either Thursdays or Fridays, often Tuesday
and Friday.

Q The reason I am exploring that in some depth with
you is if we go to January 6 of 1986, which is on Monday, you
reflect on your calendar, and I just pulled this out of the
unredacted copies, at 11:00 o'clock ap NSC meeting,

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1 I A Yes.

2 Q I believe it is your testimony there was an NSC

3 meeting on Tuesday, January 7, at which the Iran Initiative

4 was first discussed?

5 A That is correct. NSC or NSPG, I am not sure which.

6 January 6, there was an NSC meeting, and there was another

7 one on January 7. It says NSC meeting, although I believe it

8 was held in the Situation Room. It was an NSPG meeting on

9 Tuesday, the 7th.

10 Q ' It was an NSC on Monday, the 6th, and an NSPG

11 meeting on Tuesday, the 7th?

12, A Yes. And probably the reason for having so many

13 that week is we were just back from the Christinas Holidays,

14 and so there had obviously been some things that had piled

15 up.

16 Q Is there any difference in staff attendance between)

17 the NSC and NSPG meeting?

18 A Yes. An NSC meeting was normally held in the

19 Cabinet Room and would normally include the principals and

20 one other person from each of the departments involved. At

21 NSC meetings, you would sometimes have additional agencies.

22 Por example, if it was something having to do with nuclear

23 matters, we would often have the Secretary of Energy. If

24 it was something having to do with general foreign policy

25 matters, we would often have the USIA, United states

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Information Agency, particularly if it had to do with a
Presidential visit or a foreign Head of State here.

Whereas an. NSPG meeting was always smaller. It was
principals only. Very rarely would there be number two peopl^
from the departments.

Q Would staff members of the NSC regularly attena
the NSPG meetings?

A NSPG meetings, there would be a restricted staff
from the NSC, maybe two or three members, whereas at an
NSC meeting, you normally have five or six members, and
more White House staff members at NSC meetings.

Q Taking a look again at this schedule for Monday,
January 6, there is a meeting at 3:45, I believe it says
"EM, DLJ and —

A And Oliver North.

Q That is written in hand, as opposed to typed in.

A Yes.

Q Can you glean anything from the fact it was
entered by hand?

A Yes, the fact it was not originally on the schedule
when the schedule was typed. In this meeting at 4:20 p.m.
on the 4th of January, which was the previous Friday, and
that it was added probably on Monday morning or sometime
during the day on Monday. ^

Q In that regard, an<^*^v«hptriafev have made an extra

at regard,. andp^L- «nptrii

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copy of this, but I did not, let me show you a telephone
log. This was supplied to us. Please forgive the high-
lighting, if you would.

A That's all right. Right.

Q That reflects a phone message that came into you
that day, does it not?

A Yes.

Q What does it say?

A The phone message says "Oliver North called, he
left", it says that he spoke with Mr. Meese, and they 'are
to have a meeting this afternoon with Admiral Poindexter.

Q What time did that phone message come up?

A That came in at 12:25 in the afternoon.

Q Would that explain why there was a handwritten
entry on your calendar?

A Yes, but it wouldn't explain why Admiral Poindexter
never got there.

Q That was going to be my next question. The entry
on your calendar doesn't mention Admiral Poindexter.

A No. And many times that entry could be put on
there after they actually showed up, because you see under-
neath there, it looks like written in pencil, or something,
was some kind of a meeting, it's hard to say, some kind of
meeting, it says a half hour at 4:15. So I am not sure.
I guess that refers to another entry.

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1 I don't know whether that was put in after they

2 got there as a record of them being there or whether that

3 was put in in advance.
* Q Let me indicate to you that Colonel North's calendai

5 reflects that he was present at what he called a NSPG

6 meeting at 11:00 o'clock on Monday morning. With that piece
f of information, with the telephone message indicating that

8 he had spoken to you and was going to be coming to your

9 office io the afternoon, does that refresh your recollection

10 at all as to any of the substance of the meeting, or it

11 occurring that day?

12 A The meeting at 3:45?
13" Q Yes.

14 A No, it doesn't.

'15' Q You still don't have an independent recollection?

16 A I still don't have an independent recollection exce

17 what I have been told.

18 Q Can you recall any other occasions on which Mr.

19 North would have been present in your office?

20 A 1 remember, I believe he came to my office to

21 talk about obtaining DEA assistance in finding informants

22 who might be helpful with the location of the hostages.

23 Q Any other — other than those, the one occasion

24 you can't recall and this DEA occasion, do you recall any

25 11 other instances?

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1 A I don't recall any. There may have been one or

2 two^ or if you --

3 Q Can we assume Mr. Jensen would not have been
* present at the DEA meeting?

5 A He might have been, I don't recall. I don't

6 recall whether that happened while he was still my deputy.
.7 Q Turning to the January 7 to January 17 period,

8 this is the period after you first learned of the Iranian

9 Initiati^^ and before or up to the drafting of the finding

10 itself, were there discussions at that time of the relative

11 merits or demerits of an indirect sale versus a direct sale?

12 That is, making the sale of missiles to Iran through an

13 intermediary, like Israel, as opposed to the United States

14 selling then directly to Iran?

15 A My recollection was that the plan was always to

16 sell the weapons through, transfer the weapons through Israel

17 and- that there were discussions as to different ways of

18 accoraplishlng that through intermediaries. For example, on

19 the financing and all that sort of thing, how that would be

20 done, whether that would be done directly through transfers

21 from the Army, whether they be third-party lat«rm«di«rl«9 or

22 something like that. I think there were various alternatives

23 looked at.

24 Q The distinction I am trying to draw is between the

25 United States. tf;»n^iferrinawM^ns, setting aside foreign

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sending weapons directly to Iran in distinction to Israel
supplying Iran with its weapons and the United states
replenishing Israel's stock. Was there a distinction drawn
along those lines?

A My recollection was that Israel was always to be
involved, but it may have been discussed, there may have been
discussions, I just don't recall there were discussions of
the United States transferring weapons directly to Iran. My
best recollection is that they always went through Israel,
and most of the discussions had to do with going through
Israel .

Q Did any of the discussions have to do with Israel
selling their own arms, in their possession, to Iran and the
United States selling arms to Israel?

A I can't recall now in January, because I can't
recall — it is sort of blurred in my mind between what I

learned later about what had taken place in 1985 and what the)

plan was for 1986.

Q I think we can agree the 1985 deals took place
that way, that is Israel sold their arms to Iran, and we
replenished their stocks?

A Yes. And it may be in 19 ~ when the plan was
suggested to us in January of 1986, my best recollection
is that the weapons were always going to, that the weapons
may have started in the United States and then gone to

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1 Israel and then gone to Iran rather than the use of Israeli

2 weapons, but I can't recall for sure.

3 Q Do you recall any legal distinction or legal

4 significance to the difference between those two trans-

5 actions, particularly under the Arms Export Control Act?

6 A Yes. I think that may have been discussed, and

7 it was in that context that there was discussion if the

8 President used the National Security Act, it really didn't

9 matter b^sed upon the William French Smith opinion.

10 Q And was the deal structured to allow the sale to go

11 under the National Security Act, as opposed to the Arms

12 Export Control Act?

13 A That is my recollection, yes.

14 Q And was it structured in that fashion in part or in

15 toto because the Arms Export Control Act required congress-

16 ional notification, whereas the National Security Act, at

17 least, allowed a little bit of leeway as far as notification?
13 A That was a consideration, yes.

19 Q Was that your idea or your suggestion?

20 A No, I believe that suggestion caune from the CIA,
2i from Bill Casey, because I was asked, I was not asked for

22 any original legal advice on the subject. It was more a

23 matter of asking me to concur with a plan that had already

24 been developed, both a legal plan and operational plan that

25 had been developed by CIA and/or the NSC staff.

215

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Q And in context of shaping the deal under the
National Security Act, as opposed to the Arms Export Control
Act, you don't recall any discussion of prior sales that mighi
have been done through Israel? |

A I don't recall any such discussion, no. Prior to
1986 you are talking about?

Q Yes. . .

A No.

Q Did you ever feel that it was your role to follow
up on the arms transactions in any way to ensure any
congressional notification was in fact done?

A No.

Q Who, if anyone, would have been responsible for
doing that?

A Well, the responsibility would have been someone in
the National Security Council staff or someone in the CIA,
probably th« National Security Council staff.

Q We talked a little bit about the Southern Air
Transport investigation, emd I want to focus on a couple
specific points there. At the time Admiral Poindexter called
you to discuss this Southern Air Transport investigation,
you were aware, I think you said, that the Hasenfus plane
had gone down in Nicaragua.

A I believe I was generally, yes. ,

Q And you were aware, were you not, that there was.

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that what the, that the investigation was focusing on the
ownership and financing of that resupply flight?

A I didn't really have much information as to what
the investigation involved. I knew there was generally an
investigation, I didn't know the details of it at all,

Q You knew that the allegation at least was that the
plane had been resupplying the contras, is that fair to say?

A My best recollection is that it had something to
do with the J contras, yes.

Q At that time, you also were aware, were you not,
that Colonel North was, I don't want to say this in a way
that is loaded, but I want to say actively involved in the
contra account for the National Security Council. Is that a
fair statement?

A I guess I knew that. I guess I knew that he was
involved in the whole, in the Central American and particular
ly the Nicaraguan situation, yes. .,

Q And you knew there had been allegations in the
press that, in fact. Colonel North was running the resupply
operation?

A I don't recall whether I knew that at the time or
not, whether I paid much attention to that or not.

Q Let me just show you a few newspaper articles from
late '85 and just take a look at them, if you could, for a
moment and see if you recall seeing any of-ttu»iii.At.^hg time

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1 or being aware of the allegations that were being made.

2 Let's have them marked. Deposition Exhibit 2, which would

3 be an article dated August 9, 1985, called "Role in Nicaragua

4 Described by U.S., Administration Says Contacts With Rebels
i'l 5 Were Legal."

6 A Incited the 9th of August.

7 Q It goes on to describe a White House official
6 making statements about the administration's involvement
9 and mentioning the NSC being involved in it.

: -to A I am sure I was generally knowledgeable of this,

11 yes.
< ,-. 12 ■; 's: Q I am not going to take you through several of the

13 other articles, u, •.; •
3-^14- ■ -i (Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)

15!; . BY MR. McGOUGH:

, r;^- 16 Q Is it fair to say there was something of a contro-

.^ 17 versy about the NSC's role, subject of controversy over the

18 NSC's role or alleged role in relationship to the contras

19 throughout the latter part of 1985 and on into 1986?

20 A Yes, I knew there was a political controversy and
s 21 differences of opinion generally between the administration

22 and some people in the Congress. . r ; .^
-.-.v^, .; Q And Admiral Poindexter called you and asked you

-i 24 to postpone or to put off portions of the SAT investigation

■ 25 because they were involved in the Iran Initiative. Is that

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fair to say? . , . ; .

A That is correct. I knew Southern Air Transport,
or I gues3 I assumed, or maybe he told me they were a
proprietary line of CIA.

Q Were you aware at that time that Colonel North was
involved in the Iranian Initiative?

A I don't know whether I was or not.

Q He was the one who met with you on January 6, was
he not?

A Yes, he was. So I was aware that he was involved,
yes. , .

Q At that time, did you make any connection between
the NSC's role with the contras and the NSC's role with the
Iranian Initiative because it involved the same carrier?

A No. I assumed that the carrier being a CIA
proprietary was being used for the Iranian operation, and
that that had no connection with anything in Central America.

Q Did you attempt to limit, I want to say limit the
limitation, but that is a double negative. Did you attempt
to allow the investigation to go forward as to the contra
side but have the investigation stopped or postponed as to
the Iranian side?

A My understanding was the investigation was not
involving the Iranian side, that there was an investigation
in existence. I knew very little about what they were

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1 investigating. The impression I got from Admiral Poindexter

2 was that people in Southern Air Transport, that the FBI was

3 trying to investigate people or that they were trying to

4 get records, and that it was necessary for the people who

5 were involved in Southern Air Transport to be used or to be

6 active in something relating to the Iranian Initiative during

7 that period of time, and, therefore, he asked for a short

8 delay, a few days' delay in the FBI investigation.
9.. So what I did was ask Steve Trott, who is my

10 Associate Attorney General and who handles those things with

11 the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, to find out whethn

12 a few days' delay could be accomplished without in any way

13 hindering or endangering the investigation because of

14 Southern Air Transport's participation in a project for the

15 National Security Council staff. And so he did that and was

16 advised by the Director of the FBI they could delay their

17 investigation a few days without hindering that phase of the
IS investigation for a few days without hindering the investiga
'fg tion, so it was done.

20 Q ^^^ y°u ever been contacted by the NSC regarding a

21 pending criminal investigation prior to that time?

22. A Not that I can recall.

23. Q Let's just, to complete it, I don't want to come

24 into 1987, but up until January 1, 1987, have you been con-

25 tacted by the NSC?

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A Not that I can recall.

Q Was any attempt, or did you ever hear of an
investigation into a company called Maule Air Company?
They manufacture small planes and are located in Atlanta,
Georgia.

A Not that I remember.

Q I would like to focus on one other investigation,
if I could, and that is an investigation that has gone under
a number of names. Therehas been quite a bit of press about
it. This is the Neutrality Act assassination plot case out
of the Southern District of Florida, which involved original-
ly an alleged attempt to assassinate Ambassador Teunbs, and
evolved into a Neutrality Act investigation and a gun-
running investigation. There has been a fair amount of
press. There have been newspaper allegations that Leon
Kelner, the United States Attorney in the Southern District
of Florida, received instructions from Main Justice to slow
dotm this investigation.

Can you tell me, or do you recall when you first
became aware of that case?

A I can't remember exactly, but I became aware of it
through the press. I can't remember exactly when in terms
of a date. I do )cnow that I wa» aware of it at the time
that Z was in Miami to visit some FBI agents who, had been
-**■<* thtt date in regard to that particular

221

1 incident whenever that occurred, because I was there visit-

2 ing these wounded FBI agents, and Leon Kelner was there with

3 me, along with FBI people from Mieuni.

4 In the course of leaving the hospital, walking to

5 the elevator, Lowell Jensen and I were there together, and

6 I asked him if there was such an investigation going on, and

7 it related — the way I knew it was — it related to

8 allegedly contras being involved with gun-running and

9 possibly with drugs.

10 And I asked him if there was such an investigation

11 going, he told me that there was. And that's about the sum

12 total of my contact with him on the subject or my knowledge

13 of the investigation.

14 Q I think the record will show that your visit to

15 Miami took place on or about April 10, 1986, and it was in

16 connection with FBI agents who were shot. Do you recall who

17 first told you about the case?

^3 A I think it was in thepress, if I remember correctly

19 that X first learned it.

20 Q Here you ever contacted, or did you ever speak to

21 anyone at the NSC about that?

22 A Not that I recall.

23 Q Do you recall seeing any written materials, any

24 written reports on the case?

25 AX may have. X can't recall now seeing it. That isj

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1 not the same case Mr. Conyers was asking about, is it?

2 Q I am not sure what Mr. Conyers was asking about.

3 MR. LEON: You testified earlier to that.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes.

5 MR. LEON: Let :ne check my notes.

6 MR. MATTHEWS: That was regarding the downing of

7 the Hasenfus plane.

8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall, but I may have seen

9 reports on it.

10 BY MR. McGOUGH:

11 Q Do you recall meeting with Lowell Jensen in late

12 March of 1986 and discussing the advisability of briefing

13 Admiral Poindexter?

14 A I don't recall it now. It is possible I may have,

15 I don't know.

15 Q Have you recently, within the last three or four

17 months, discussed that event with Mr. Jensen?

13 A No, I have not. At least I don't recall discussing

19 it with hiffl.

20 Q Is the problem the timing — do you ever recall

21 discussing that?

22 A I have no recollection of discussing that matter

23 with Lowell Jensen at all.

24 Q And that includes discussing it retrospectively,

25 that is Judge Jensen saying to you, "Do vou remember the

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meeting we had where we discussed briefing Admiral Poindextei
on the case?" ■•• • - -

A I don't recall that.

Q To your knowledge, has Admiral Poindexter ever
contacted you about that case?

A Not that I can recall.

Q To your knowledge, did anyone at the NSC ever con-
tact you on that case? ,;

Not that I can recall.

Q To your knowledge, did you or anyone at the Depart-
ment of Justice indicate to Mr. Kelner or anyone in his
office that they ought to slow down their investigation or
be dilatory or otherwise see to it that any charges or
investigation in the case was delayed?

A Not to my knowledge.

Q Would you have recalled such instructions if in
fact you were aware of them?

A I believe I irould.

Q Do you recall ever discussing the case with Mark
Richards or Stephen Trott?

A I don't recall it. I might have.

Q Do you recall ever instructing any of your
subordinates to brief the NSC on any pending investigation?

A
to do that, no.

I don't recall directing or instructing anybody

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Q Let's go baclc to the conversation you had with Leon
Kelner. I believe you said you asked him if there was such
a case. Do you recall what his response was?

A I think they did have such a case and were in-
vestigating It, words to that effect is my best recollection.

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6A 1 Q Do you recall anything else about that conversation?
CAS-1 2 A No. It was a very brief conversation on the way

3 to the elevator or in the elevator.

4 Q Do you have any fixed recollection of Mr. Jensen

5 being present during that conversation?

6 A I believe he was. I am not absolutely positive,

7 but I am pretty sure he was.

8 Q Did you discuss any other cases with Mr. Kelner?

9 A Not that I can recall.

10^ Q Why did you single that case out?

11 A Just because it was getting a lot of publicity

12 at the time and I was curious whether there was such a case,

13 or whether there was such an investigation going on.

14 : Q Did Mr. Kelner ask you for any advice or guidance
1'. . 15 on the case?

16 A Not that I can recall. If he had, I would have

17 said. handle it like any other case.

18 Q Prior to that time, had you ever met Mr. Kelner?

19 A Oh, I am sure !.'> had, yes. He was, I think he

20 was an Assistant U.S. Attorney while Stanley Marcus was there

21 and then he became U.S. Attorney, if I remember correctly.

22 0 Did you ever have any substantive discussions with

23 him about any cases in his office other than —

24 A I visited the office down there and discussed

25 *■ whole lot of cases ^ith bi^^t .^u ^oqw, the usual review I

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do when I go around visiting U.S. Attorneys' offices.

Q You say "with them", Mr. Kelner?

A I think he was the assistant in charge in the office
at that time or one of the assistants when I visited that
office down there.

Q What about after he became U.S. Attorney, do you
recall having any substantive discussions of cases with him
at that time?

A ^ may have. I don't recall specifically.

Q Do you recall on your trip to Miami who rode with
whom?

I understand Mr. Kelner met you at the airport
and you traveled to several hospitals.

A We traveled to two hospitals. I don't remember who
was in the car with me now. It may have been Mr. Jensen
or it may have been one of the FBI agents. It may have been
Mr. Kelner. I think it was probably either Mr. Jensen
or one of the FBI, one of the special agents in charge.

0 Do you ever recall discussing with anyone the
political implications of that investigation?
,??>, A Not that I can recall.

.y^'' Q DO you ever recall discussing with anyone the
impact that the investigation might have on any vote in
Congress? .'

A No. I don't recall such a discussion of that nature.

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Q After your conversation with Mr. Kelner, do you
recall receiving any further information or briefings on that
case?

A I may have. I don't have a specific recollection
now. I may have, as I would with any cases.

Q Have you spoken to Mr. Kelner since April 10,
1986?

A Oh, yes. At the U.S. Attorney Conference and other
meetings, I am sure I have seen him on a number of
occasions.

Q Have you ever spoken to him about this matter?

A Not that I can recall.

Q Have you ever spoken to him about his frustration
or anger over the press allegations that arose out of the
investigation?

A I don't remember speaking to him about that. It is
possible that I did one of the times I have seen him. But I
don't remember it.

Q Were you aware that the FBI agents and the
Assistant United States Attorney had gone to Costa Rica on
that case?

A I don't believe so, no. I don't recall ever having
learned that.

Q Was this the type of case that you would, feel it
was necessary to alert the NSC to?

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A I don't recall ever alerting the NSC and I don't
recall any basis on why we would alert them.

Q There was nothing about the case that you can
recall that would have required a heads-up or a briefing
to the NSC?

A Not that I can recall. I think if anything like
that would have happened, it would have been recommended or
suggested by somebody in the Criminal Division or by the
Associate Attorney General or Deputy Attorney General. I
don't have any recollection of that.

MS. NAUGHTON: Can I ask one follow-up on that?

Do you recall what did Mr. Kelner tell you the
progress of the investigation was?

In other words, was he ready to go to grand jury?
Was it just beginning? Had he indicted?

THE WITNESS: I don't have a specific recollection.
My best recollection is that he told me that it was an
investigation, that they were just in the process of looking
into it or something like that, but I can't tell you
specifically.

MS. NAUGHTON: Did he mention any subjects of the
investigation?

THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe so. At least, I
don't recall it. And not any names that would have made any
difference to nw anyway.

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MS. NAUGHTON: Did he indicate that he had been m
touch, with the Department of Justice about the case prior to
your inquiring about it?

THE WITNESS: I don't recall whether he did or not.

MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you.

BY MR. McGOUGH:
Q General Meese, let me go to the fact-finding as it
has become known, and I have just a very limited group of
questions 90 that and they relate to when and how the
records were secured at the NSC.

Can you recall the -- or can you put a date or
time on your first instructions to anyone to secure the records
of the NSC?

A Well, first of all, on Saturday our people had
looked at all the records during their review that took place
throughout the day on Saturday. Then on Tuesday, when we
commenced a criminal investigation, we asked that the
records, I asked my deputy — we have a procedure here that
any time there is a criminal case or any litigation case of
any sort, the contact between the Justice Department and the

White House is between the Deputy Attorney General and the

White House counsel, and so I asked the Deputy Attorney
General as a matter of routine to make sure that the files
of the NSC, the documents pertaining to this matter, were
secured as part of the initiation of criminal inquiry.

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Q What do you^S^n~Dy

A Well, to make sure they would be intact and held
intact for further investigation.

Q You would want to exclude access or prevent access
by, for example, Oliver North?

A Well, I wouldn't have said Oliver North,
necessarily, specifically, but any, that to maintain — to
ensure that the documents were maintained intact so they would
be looked at by investigators in the future.

Q And when do you recall making that decision?

A Some time in the early afternoon of Tuesday, the
25th, when we brought the Criminal Division people into
it for the first time.

Q Was there a delay of some kind in getting them
secured?

A My understanding was that the Deputy Attorney
General, there was some misunderstanding on the part of the
Deputy Attorney General about the immediacy of doing that, but
that later on in the afternoon he did make calls to the
White House, and I don't know whether — I believe those calls
were returned the following day and that he passed on those
directions to the White House counsel and the White House
counsel indicated they had already taken that precaution.

Q Do you know when, in fact, the records were
physically secured? "■ " '■ -'^

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No , I do no€'.

MR. LEON: Can I follow-up on that?

MR. McGOUGH: Sure.

MR. LEON: Mr. Cooper testified, I believe, that you
showed a rare reaction of being upset. Apparently it is not
your custom to show, at least facially, ./henever you are
upset with someone. Apparently you were upset it hadn't been
done right away. When you directed Deputy Burns to get ,
it done the second time that day, you evidenced the fact you wei
upset about it. Is that accurate?

THE WITNESS: It is possible. I don't remembier
now.

MR. LEON: The reason I ask is I would like you to
share for the record your sense of urgency in getting it
done right away. Did you feel Tuesday afternoon when you
thought you had clearly explained you wanted it done, did
you feel at that time it was urgent it be done and you wanted
it done right away?

THE WITNESS: I felt it was urgent in the sense we
had people who had been relieved of duty over there and people
would be leaving the White House and I felt a sense of
urgency then. Plus the fact we were now in the process of
commencing a criminal investigation so you want that done
right away when that happens . ,

MR. LEON: When you left that meeting, you believed

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anyway that was going to be done right away, did you not?
THE WITNESS: That is right.
BY MR. McGOUGH: ! •
Q When you were interviewing Mr. McFarlane and he
took you aside, could yuu put on the record exactly what it
was he said to you in this aside?

A Well, I can't recall exactly what he said, but it was
to the effect that I think he had given a speech or
something in which he had taken a lot of the blame for the
Iranian initiative or the arms transfer to Iran. That
I am a little uncertain of, is exactly what he said about
that. But I do generally recall that he said something
about the fact he wanted me to know the President was
generally behind this whole thing.

There was no doubt in the mind of the President
this was the thing to do, to go along with this
initiative, and that — and it was in that sense that I said
th« most important thing was to be sure we got the whole
truth out, that we got the truth, and that he should not
try to shade this one way or the other thinking he was
protecting the President.

Q Did you have any reason to believe at that point he
might be shading it one way or the other?

A It was his hesitancy when he was talking about.

and his inabilitjj^|^p|.e^|JJ5^^5^^

hat the President had

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said in those meetii^s during the summer of 1985. He
appeared hesitant at that time. In my mind, I felt
perhaps he was trying to shield the President in some
way. I explained to him what was really important was to
tell the truth and let the facts come out as they existed.
And that he shouldn't try to figure out what would help the
President or not help the President.

I said something to the effect, for example, if the
President .had approved it, that might help rather than .

hurt.

Q Did he say anything specifically about protecting

the President to the best of your recollection?

A Not about protecting the President, but when he said

he wanted me to know the President was fully behind this,

it, he was much more vociferous about that aspect than he had

been when he talked to us about it earlier on when he gave his

narrative account.

Q Mr. Leon pointed out at the outset of your interview
with colonel North you gave him a little lecture about
telling the truth and not trying to protect the President or
putting a spin on it. Had you given that same kind of lecture
to Mr. McFarlane at the outset of his interview?
,". '^X No, I don't believe I had.
^'*> ' Q What changed? .'

A well, it wasn't the fact -- I was concerned people

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would think they were doing -- that people in their own mind
might think they ought to protect the President or minimize
his role or otherwise do something out of a misguided sense
of loyalty and I just wanted to be sure we set that aside so
we got the facts because that was the best thing for the
President, was to get all the truth out, to make that clear.

So when I said it to Ollie North, I said that so
that nobody would pull any punches on the thing and we would
get the f^cts out. '

That . was the best way we could help the President.

Q I believe you said Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson
reported to you they found several versions of the
diversion memo, only one of which had the diversion in it.

A They told me they had found what appeared to be
the same basic memo or same type of memo, but only one of which
had the proposal for the diversion of funds, yes,

- Q Did that lead you or them at that time to suspect
alteration of documents?

A No, it didn't. It rather — I don't believe
anybody mentioned that at the time, I don't recall. There
was more than likely various versions of the same proposal,
some of which included the diversion of funds and others which
didn't.

MR. LEON: Mr. McFarlane in that Friday afternoon.
General, he didn't in any way sugges^.to you, did he, he

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1 knew about a diversion of funds to the contras?

2 THE WITNESS: Not at all.

3: MR. LEON: You were ]ust making reference to his

4 speech and that he had made a speech. I don't want to have any

5 uncertainty in the record. He didn't indicate to you he had

6 made a speech where he acknowledged responsibility for

7 diversion, had he?

8 THE WITNESS: No. He had acknowledged responsibility

9 for the plan of arms transfers and the plan that related to

10 the Iranian initiative.

11 BY MR. McGOUGH:

12 Q In your meeting with Mr. Casey on Saturday night

13 at his home, at that point you were aware there was a

14 diversion memo. I think you said you recalled Mr. Casey

15 saying something about the Canadians alleging funds from the

16 arms sale had been used for Israeli or U.S. Government

17 projects.

18 A Israeli or U.S. projects.

19 Q Did you press him at that point to determine

20 whether the U.S. projects he was talking about were the

21 same U.S. projects referred to in the diversion memo?

22 A No, I didn't, particularly because it didn't appear

23 to me they were, and also it appeared this was more of a, if

24 you will, a coercion tactic by the Canadians or th$ people

25 to whom the money was owed. SVi^- 'i^fc 5-,.;.,

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CAS-12 ' Q Why did it appear to you they weren't the same
projects? '

A There was nothing there to indicate they were
and he indicated to me this was much more, they were ]ust
trying to coerce the United States to make up the money that
they were owed.

Q But you were aware at that point Oliver North was
connected with both the contra account and the Iranian account
and the N^C?

A I am not sure I was that aware of it until we talked
with him about it.

Q You knew he was the person in the NSC responsible
for the Central American issue?

A Z knew that, yes.

Q I think we agreed you knew about the press
allegations about his supervision of the contra supply
network?

A That is true.

Q By that time the Hasenfus plane had gone down;
is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And now you had a memo that seemed to set forth the
transfer of funds from the Iranian sale to the contras, and
Colonel North had been involved with the Iranian s^le. By
that time you knew pretty intimately: ^i« that fair to say?

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A At that time I don't know we knew — we knew he
had been involved. I don't know how much we knew he had been
involved because I hadn't talked with him at that time but
he certainly had been involved.

Q What I am trying to probe is why when Mr. Casey
said to you Israeli — and the money had been diverted or
used for Israeli and U.S. Government projects, in light of
having just found the diversion memo that morning, why it
didn't, wt^y you didn't press him on whether the U.S. Go.vernment
project included the contras?

A Well, for one thing, until we talked with Ollie
North and found out whether there was anything to this
memo, I didn't want to reveal that fact to anyone,
particularly anyone I was talking with who -- whom we might
want to interview on this whole subject.

Q Without revealing the fact, might not that have
been an important question to ask in order to interview
North the next day?

A In the way in which Bill Casey told it to me, it
didn't pertain to anything that would strike me as having to
do with the contra project. It certainly didn't indicate
any knowledge on the part of these men that there
actually was something going on there.

Q You discussed a little while ago that Colonel North

ireas Admiral Poindexter

was relieved oJ. diitv at, the N?C/, , whei

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was allowed to resigW V?as there a proportionality of synch
there at all? ^ . .^ -.^ r

A Well, there was a big difference in their positions,
and this was something that I really didn't participate much
in, it was more White House people since they were White
House personnel, but one thing was that Admiral Poindexter
was a direct appointee, if you will, of the President,
whereas Colonel North was detailed from the Marine Corps,
and so there was a qualitative difference in their status
within the White House.

Q Did it have to do with their own individual status
or did it have to do with the decision by someone at the
White House, either in whole or part, a decision by
someone in the White House that Colonel North was somehow
more to blame for what happened than Admiral Poindexter or
deserved a higher penalty?

A I don't know. You would have to ask Don Regan
that, I can't tell you. In my own mind, it was more the
difference in their status, because people at Colonel North's
level were transferred in and out all the time.

Q When you interviewed — well, strike that. That
has been answered.

You indicated that you were not aware of any
solicitation, any contributions by foreign countries to the

contras.

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A I may have been aware of it. I don't recall
particularly being aware of it. It wasn't high in my
consciousness.

I may have been aware of it from reading the
newspapers or hearing about it in the White House.

Q Were you aware other than from the newspapers of
any solicitation of contributions from foreign countries
for the contras?

A ,1 don't reall whether I was at that time or not.
I, of course, have become aware since that time. I don't
know whether my knowledge goes back that far or not.

Q Were you ever asked for legal advice regarding the
legalitites of solicitations?

A Not that I recall. I doubt if I was,
Q To your knowledge, were you ever asked to render
legal advice regarding any aspect of the Boland Amendment
in its various manifestations?
A Not that I can recall.

Q TO your knowledge, was the Department of Justice
ever asked to render prospective legal advice on the
Boland Amendment?

v*A I don't recall that it was, and I would have to
'inquire whether the Office of Legal Counsel was or not.

Q Would these inquiries normally be brought to your
attention or could they have coo. in and gone out without

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1 your knowing about it?

■ ■ ^

2 A They could have come in and gone out without my

3 being conscious of it. I do get a report each week of

4 new matters entertained by the Office of Legal Counsel

5 which I scan most weeks, but I don't usually go over it in

6 detail.

7 Q Were you at any time aware of any Government

8 official being involved with solicitations of private

9 citizens, private individuals for contributions to the

10 contras?

11 A I don't recall that I was.

12 Q Were you involved in any role Oliver North might

13 have played in assisting organizations out of the

14 National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty,

15 Mr. Channell's organization, or Mr. Miller's organization?

16 A Well, the only thing that I can recall was

17 inadvertently one time being asked by Dave Fisher, if that is

18 one of the organizations — David Fisher, who had been a

19 special assistant to the President or staff aid to the

20 President, or something — asked me if I would be a guest at

21 a dinner, or maybe the guest of honor at a dinner at an

22 organization with a patriotic name was involved in, and he

23 said that they were very supportive of the President's

24 position on the contras and a lot of the other things the

25 President was doing. "i^^ ^^^^Ot^ ,

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.S-17 1 And I said, yes, I would be glad to consider that

2 And it was while that was apparently being considered, I

3 don't know, we had gotten a formal invitation or whether

4 it was just an informal inquiry, that all of this

5 broke regarding David Fisher and Mr. Channell.

6 Q And did you at that point defer or decline invitatiuus

7 A Yes. We stopped any further consideration of that.

8 Q Would it be possible to maybe dig that out for

9 us so we c^n figure out who the organization was?

10 A Sure.

11 Q Miss Naughton asked you about a newspaper

12 allegation that, or maybe perhaps you raised it yourself,

13 a newspaper allegation a fellow in Texas said he had been

14 referred to Colonel North or the NSC by you in order to

15 assist the contras?

16 A What I referred to was a newspaper article that

17 someone, I don't know whether it was a man or womem, or

18 I don't know where they were from, supposedly called my

19 office while I was in the White House about supporting the

20 contras or supporting our program in Central America,

21 somewhere along that line, and they were referred by a

22 secretary in my office to the NSC which in turn referred, the

23 article said, referred them to Oliver North. That is why I

24 know about them. ;

25 Q Let me mark as an exhibit a latter dated

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CAS-181

»nd 6A 3

TOPSECREt

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November 15, 198 3 from you to an individual by the name of
Phillip Mabry, m-a-b-r-y.

(Exhibit EM-3 was marked for identification.)

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BY MR. McGOOGH:
Q Do you recognize either this letter or the fellow
to whom it is addressed or the organization?

A I don't recognize the name of the organization or
the letter other than thp fact it appears to have been writte:
in the White House and appears to have been signed by me.
I don't know whether that is my actual signature or a
signature machine.

Q , Can you tell from that whether you actually signed
it or —

A No, I can't. But if we got the original documents
from the White House, which would show the tracking sheet,
I could identify more about it. Do we have that at all?
MR. McGOUGH: I don't.
MR. LEON: I don't think we have.
THE WITNESS: Could we get an extra copy of that?
And we'll try to track it down.
BY MR. McGOUGH:
Q At or about this time, do you recall if there
were any standing instructions in your office as
to where inquiries regarding the Nicaraguan assistance to
the contras should be referred?

A I don't recall anything per se, anything relating
to national security affairs normally would be referred
automatically to the National Security Council staff.

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Q As opposed to the State Department?

A Yes. It would be referred to the National Security
Council staff in the White House, and this looks like the
kind of form letter normally used by the Correspondence
Unit. I would doubt if I would ever see this letter. I
would not dictate a letter like this. This looks like it is
prepared by some staff member.

Q It is not a memorable letter?

A It looks like the form paragraphs I recognize as th
kind of thing they would normally do on anything that came
in that didn't pertain to our office.

Q You may have answered this question. In regard to
the Drug Enforcement Administration and Colonel North's
request for authorization or assistance, can you put a time-
frame on it at all, a date as to when he might have approach€
you initially?

A I can't at this stage. I am sure we can probably
establish that.

Q Do you recall whether he did it in a face-to-face
meeting here?

A I think it was a face-to-face meeting either here
or some place else.

BY MR. LEON:

Q Did Colonel North, in any of your meetings with
him, if there was more than one, did he at any time

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personally inform you that he was involved in some kind of a
contra resupply effort down in Central America, anything
along those lines?

A I don't recall any such conversation with him.
BY MR. McGOUGH:

Q General Meese, let me focus you, if I could, on the
evening of November 24, 1986. This would be the night
before the press conference. Do you recall receiving word
from anyone in the Department of Justice that a story about
the diversion of funds to the contras was in the hands of a
reporter and would be the subject of a news story the next
day?

A I don't recall that, no. I don't think there was
one, so I am sure if it had been true, there would have been
a story the next day. I don't recall it.

MR. McGOUGH: I think that is all I have.
MR. LEON: Let me follow up on that last point
there.

BY MR. LECN:

Q Mr. Cooper indicated one of the major reasons why there was
a heightened sense of urgency that weekend with regard to the
issue is because, in discussing it with yourself and the othe
members of the team, there was a realization that it had to
be the President who made known this diversion, as opposed
to others. ' ; s -.i ^ - ,-. i,-'~ ..'

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A. Sure.

Q Do you remember having those kinds of discussions

generally with Mr. Cooper?

A I am sure we did, because it was very important I
felt that it be the President or the administration that
got it out, and if it was otherwise, someone would always
claim there was a cover-up or we were trying to conceal it,
and obviously we were not.

Q And that heightened the sense of urgency?

A It heightened the sense of urgency, sure.
BY MR. McGOUGH:

Q Do you recall meeting with Mr. McFarlane on the
Drug Enforcement Administration, hostage situation, or speak-
ing to him about it?

A I don't recall it, although it's possible I did at
one time.

BY MS. NAUGHTOM:

0 Do you recall what you would have said to Mr.
McFarlane?

A I say it is possible. I don't recall such a
conversation. But he might have asked for the same kind of
assistance that North did. I don't remember when that all
occurred, so I don't remember whether he was the National
Security Assistant or whether it was during Poindexter's

time.

247

^ Q Was it your sense, when you were briefed by

2 Colonel North, this was prospective; in other words, something

3 was to happen, or to sanction something that you had already
^ done?

5 A No, it was my understanding it was to authorize

6 something that was going to happen.

7 Q On another topic, there was a case in the Southern

8 District of Florida, a criminal development, by the name of

9 Buse-Rosa who had been in Central America. Were you familiar

10 with that case?

11 A No, I don't believe so. I have heard about it

12 recently, but I don't have any recollection of it now.

13 Q Were you aware at the time of any participation by

14 anyone in the Department of Justice with the NSC and Oliver

15 North in discussing the potential sentence that General

16 Buse-Rosa would serve?

t7 A I don't recall it, and I don't recall any of the

18 details of the case or what it was all about.

19 • Q Was that case ever brought to your attention by

20 anyone at the NSC staff?

21' A Not that I remember. I can't recall it. I don't

22 have any recollection of it, but I have heard that case

23 mentioned recently.

24 Q Do you remember in what connection? ,'

25 A I don't remember in what connection. I believe in

^ iiMom^jMiTjgn,-

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connection with these hearings.

Q There is another case, it goes by the name Zadeh
out of Philadelphia. This is a fellow who portended to be a
Saudi Prince with whom Oliver North was involved. Were you
aware of that case while it was pending?

A I don't recall it, no. 1 don't even recognize it
now.

Q Oliver North was interviewed by the FBI on that on
other occasions. Were you ever made aware by the FBI,
Department of Justice or NSC staff Oliver North had been
interviewed?

A I don't recall that. It is possible I might have
gotten one of our routine memos on it. I get as many as
half a dozen a day on those kinds of things. Usually if
someone in the government is concerned, I may get a memo on
it. I don't recall it.

Q Do you recall, did Colonel North, Admiral
Poindexter or anyone at the NSC complain to you or ask you to
op«n any investigation against anyone for any reason?

A Not that I can recall.

Q Specifically, did either Admiral Poindexter or
Colonel North ask you to investigate Colonel North's allega-
tion people were vandalizing his property or killing his
dog?

A No, I don't recall anything along that line. I

%fe

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think I would have remembered it. This wouldn't be some-
thing we would get involved in anyway. It would be a local
police matter.

Q You are not aware the FBI had interviewed Colonel
North with regard to any of these areas?

A I was not aware of it, not that I can recall being
aware of it. I might have heard something about it more
recently, but not about the FBI being involved.

Q ; Do you know Buck Revell?

A Very well.

Q Do you know what Buck Revell 's relationship is with

Oliver North?

A The only thing I know is that I think they served
on committees of the NSC staff together, part of the
National Security Council's working group structure.

MR. LEON: TWIG?

THE WITNESS: TWIG would probably be one. I know
Buck serves on it. I don't know whether Oliver North
served on it. ThaliLs the Terrorism Working Group. There may
be other groups too. There is a whole galaxy of these kinds
of groups.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:
Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Revell had shared
any knowledge gained in criminal investigations With Colonel

North?

fWPi JICCIFACA.

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^fe*55gggE'

249

A Not that I can remember having heard of, no.

Q Do you know when Mr. Reveil was made aware of
your weekend inquiry?

A No, I don't. I know it probably would not have
been later than the 26th, which was a Wednesday, because on
that day I had alerted, I had alerted Bill Webster, and I
don't know whether I tried to reach him on Tuesday evening,
he was out of town I believe, or Wednesday morning, but I
did reac)i him, I think, either at an airport or in Chicago or
some place, and I an sure at that time at least he would have
then contacted Buck Reveil, because I believe that afternoon
Buck Reveil 's — one of the people working for Reveil,
Floyd Clark, attended a meeting in which there was a meeting
on this general matter.

Q When you spoke to Director Webster on the 21st,
did you ask him to keep this close and not to tell anyone
that you ware conducting this inquiry?

A I doubt it. I doubt if I did. I think he would ha
more or less known that anyway. I don't think I specifically
mentioned it.

Q So you don't have any knowledge whether or not he
told Buck Reveil about it?

A No , I don ' t .

Q There was testimony several months ago ."bef ore the
Foreign Affairs Subcommittee in which Ambassador Whittlesey

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stated she received calls in the fall of 1986 from Oliver

North wanting help with some problem. Around the fall of

•86 she also placed several calls to the Department of Justice

yours, Mr. Cribb, and Mr. Reynolds. Do you know what those

calls were about, do you recall?

A I don't remember whether I talked with her or not.

I don't have any recollection of talking with her, myself.

She may have talked with others in the Department.

Q Have you learned since what those calls were
I
about?

A I can't tell you what those calls were about
specifically. I do know at about that time we had an
investigation or an inquiry going, it wasn't an investigation >
actually, an inquiry going about some allegations that had
been made through the State Department.

Q And Independent Counsel was requested?
A No, I think Independent Counsel was not requested.
Q But it was a preliminary —

A It was either a preliminary inquiry or an initial
inquiry relating to a possible Independent Counsel investiga-
tion, yes.

Q And do you know, was she calling on that topic?
Did you ever determine she was calling on that topic or
another topic? »

A I don't know because I don't know, I don't

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remember whether I ever talked with her about anything.

Q Have you spoken to her since? This would have
been around October, 1986.

A I can't remember whether I have talked to Faith
Whittlesey since that time or not. I think she has been
over here since.

Q Mr. Reynolds tells us he recused himself from the
decision whether to seek Independent Counsel.

A I believe so.

Q Do you know why he recused himself?

A Because he may have a close relationship with
Faith Whittlesey. It would mean that he would not partici-
pate in the decision. So I don't know the basis for it
specifically.

MR. MATTHEWS: I hate to break in. It is a little
past 5:00.

BY MS. NAUGHTON:

Q I take it you did participate in the decision?

A Yes. Ultimately I made the decision, but it was
based upon the recommendations of the Criminal Division we
not seek an Independent Counsel.

Q Was that a decision of the Public Integrity
Section?

A I know it was the senior career prosecutor in the
Criminal Division and the Assistant Attorney General in

253

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252

1 charge of the Criminal Division. I would have to look and

2 see all the memoranda to find out what other recommendations

3 were made.

4 Q Given that Ambassador Whittlesey had worked at the

5 White House around the same time that you had and you had

6 visited with her in Switzerland, was there any reason that

7 you did not recuse yourself? Could you state your reason?

8 A There was no reason to recuse myself. If you will

9 look at the basis for recusal in the statute, even on

10 decisions I would make, let along Independent Counsel

11 decisions, which are essentially recusable decisions in

12 themselves, if you seek one, the only basis for recusal would

13 be if there were some personal relationship, such as a

14 strong friendship or a relative, or something like that,

15 which there was no in this case, or some kind of a profession

16 al relationship, which there was not, that would affect

17 objectivity.

18 And in this case, my relationships with her were

19 no different than several hundred other people appointed by

20 the President. When I visited her, it was the same as

21 visiting in any country where the Ambassador normally would

22 have you stay in their home.

23 MR. LEON: Strictly business?

24 THE WITNESS: My relationship with her .was strictly

25 on the same basis as any other official of the aovernment.

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BY MS. NAUGHtON: . " '*''
Q Do you know whether or not when you visited with
her in Switzerland you were being entertained by the dis-
cretionary fund that was the subject of the investigation?

A I had no knowledge . I was entertained by her the
same as I am around the world.

Q When did you Iwarn those funds may have been part
of the discretionary fund?

A I don't think I learned until in the course of }->>e
investigation there was some allegation.

MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you very much.
MR. LEON: Thanks, General.
(Whereupon, at 5:05 p.m., the deposition adjournea.i

[INClASSiFIED

255

TRANSCRIPT
OF PROCEEDINGS

CONFIDENTIAL

UNITED STATES SENATE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION

CONFIDENTIAL

DEPOSITION OF RICHARD H. MELTON

CONFIDENTIAL

/H7

VJashington, D. C.
Wednesday, May 27, 1987

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CR31098.0
RER/sjg

CONFIDENTIAL
UNITED STATES SENATE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION

DEPOSITION OF RICHARD H. MELTON

Washington, D. C.
Wednesday, May 27, 1987

Deposition of RICHARD H. MELTON, called for examination
pursuant to notice of deposition, by telephone conference call
at the offices of the Senate Select committee. Suite 901,
Hart Senate Office Building, at 4:14 p.m. before REBECCA E.
EYSTER, a Notary Public within and for the District of
Columbia, when were present:

TERRY SMILJANICH, ESQ.

Associate Counsel

United States Senate Select
Committee on Secret Military
Assistance to Iran and the
Nicaraguan Opposition

TIMOTHY E. TRAYLOR, ESQ.
United States House of
. Representatives Select

Committee to Investigate

Covert Arms Transactions

With Iran

— continued

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1 APPEARANCES (Continued)
2

GEORGE TAFT, ESQ.
Office of Legal Advisor
United States Department
of State
4 Washington, D. C.

5
6

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1]
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KIRK-PATRICK KOTULA, ESQ.
Counsel General
United States Embassy
San Jose, Costa Rica

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1 CONTENTS

2 WITNESS EXAMINATION
, Richard H. Melton

. by Mr. Smiljanich

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1 PROCEEDINGS

2 MR. SMILJANICH: Mr. Kotula, if you would, go

3 ahead and administer an oath to Charge Melton, we would

4 appreciate it.

5 THE WITNESS: I do . I have just taken the oath.

6 MR. SMILJANICH: We really do need to get it — go

7 ahead and have him repeat it for the record.

8 MR. KOTULA: I asked Mr. Melton if he swore or

9 affirmed the statement he is about to make is the truth to

10 the best of his knowledge and he said he did.

11 MR. SMILJANICH: Thank you.

12 Whereupon,

13 RICHARD H. MELTON

14 was called as a witness and, having first been duly sworn,

15 was examined and testified as follows:

16 EXAMINATION

17 BY MR. SMILJANICH:

18 Q State your full name, please.

19 A My name is Richard H. Melton.

20 Q Mr. Melton, you are currently charge at the

21 American embassy in San Jose, Costa Rica; is that correct?

22 A That is correct.

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1 Q Starting in July of 1985, what position did you

2 take with the State Department?

3 A During that month I took the position of Office

4 Director of the Office of Central American Panamanian affairs

5 in the Department of State.

5 Q That is within the Bureau of Inter-American

7 Affairs; is that correct?

8 A That is correct.

9 Q And during your tenure as head of that office,

10 Assistant Secretary Abrams was assistant secretary for that

11 bureau?

12 A That is correct.

13 Q Now, in the early part of May of 1986, did you

14 begin the first of a series of face-to-face meetings with a

15 man by the name of General Jack Singlaub?

16 A That is correct. I believe during that period,

17 the period in question, which is May of 1986, I had one,

18 perhaps two face-to-face meetings with him. I also had

19 several telephone conversations with him.

20 Q Just to take an overview for a second, in

21 approximately — in how many meetings in which you were

22 present was Secretary Abrams also present in a direct meeting

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1 with General Singlaub?

2 A I believe, to the best of my recollection, two

3 meetings. I couldn't give you the precise dates of those

4 meetings .

5 Q Okay, fine. You have with you, do you not, copies

6 of a series of memos that you authored concerning these

7 meetings?

8 A Yes, I do.

9 Q And you have referred to those memos to help you

10 refresh your recollection?

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay.

13 The first memo we have is dated May 8, 1986.

14 First let me ask you, do you recall meeting with General

15 Singlaub on or about that date?

16 A Yes. With my memory refreshed by looking at the

1 7 memorandum , yes .

18 Q Did you ever have any prior meetings with General

19 Singlaub?

20 A The first memorandum that you referred to covers a

21 meeting, I believe, on May 3rd.

22 Q I believe the date is, if you will look carefully.

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1 maybe your copy is poor, but it looks like my copy shows that

2 the meeting took place on May 8 .

3 A The copy I have, memorandum number 1, dated May 8,

4 the first paragraph of that says that the meeting took place

5 on May 3. That may be an error in transmission.

6 Q Okay. Okay. It is not particularly pertinent at

7 this moment, but let me ask you, prior to the date of this

8 particular meeting, had you ever met General Singlaub

9 before?

10 A Yes, I had met him before. Some months before. I

11 don't recall exactly what the date of that was. I don't have

12 any notes with me.

13 Q Do you recall it was approximately some months

14 before this meeting?

15 A It was in connection with a — General Singlaub

16 had gone to a Central American country and negotiated an

17 agreement with the ambassador. It was in connection with

18 that as I recall.

19 Q Okay. Did you meet with General Singlaub shortly

20 after he came back from that trip?

21 A That was true. I would have to have the dates

22 here but I think that this series of memos was shortly after

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1 that. I have to go back, so someone would have to refresh me

2 on exactly when that agreement took place. But it was in the

3 same time period.

4 Q Let me just tell you that the records indicate

5 that General Singlaub had these series of meetings in the

6 last week of March of 1986. And there were then a series of

7 cables which I believe culminate in the cable of April 10,

8 1986. So that is the time frame concerning that particular

9 agreement that General Singlaub negotiated.

10 So with that as a time frame, about when would it

11 have been that you personally met with General Singlaub?

12 A It would have been in the context of those

13 meetings that you referred to. I think you said they were in

14 April?

15 Q Yes. The series of cables ended in April.

16 A It was in that time frame.

17 Q Okay. General Singlaub came to your office?

18 A Before this series of memos took place.

19 Q General Singlaub came to your office?

20 A No. No. In that instance, I was in a meeting

21 that took place in Elliott Abrams' office.

22 Q And who all was present?

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1 A As I recall, I was there, of course, Elliott

2 Abrams, General Singlaub. I am not positive, but Deputy

3 Assistant Secretary William Walker may have been in that

4 meeting as well or in part of that meeting. I am not

5 positive of that.

6 Q All right. Tell us your best recollection of what

7 was discussed at that meeting.

8 A The earlier meeting?

9 Q Yes, this first meeting.

10 A I have no recollection of that specifically. The

11 context in which that took place was the agreement which

12 General Singlaub had worked out himself with Eden Pastora.

13 The concerns that we had that Assistant Secretary Abrams

14 expressed were that there was some confusion as a result of

15 the content of that agreement, and the wording of that

16 agreement that could have made it appear that the United

17 States Government was a party to that agreement between

18 General Singlaub and Eden Pastora. Assistant Secretary

19 Abrams' concern was to dispel that, to make sure that both

20 General Singlaub and Eden Pastora knew with absolutely no

21 doubt that the United States Government was not a party to

22 that agreement. That was the context of and the thrust of

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1 that meeting as I recall it.

2 Q Okay. Give me a second. Was anything discussed

3 at that meeting concerning any intentions of General Singlaub

4 to solicit foreign countries for aid for the Contras?

5 A No, not at all.

6 Q So the purpose of that meeting was simply to make

7 clear to General Singlaub the position of the United States

8 with regard to that agreement he had worked out and the fact

9 that the United States was not a party or involved in any way

10 with any such agreements or understandings he would reach

11 with Eden Pastora; is that correct?

12 A That is correct.

13 Q One second.

14 A Beg your pardon?

15 Q One second.

16 (Pause. )

17 BY MR. SMILJANICH:

18 Q During that discussion, do you recall whether or

19 not General Singlaub indicated that he had discussed these

20 matters with the ambassador to that particular country where

21 he had worked out this agreement with Mr. Pastora?

22 A No.

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1 Q Do you recall anything in that discussion about

2 the involvement of that ambassador -- of our ambassador to

3 that country in connection with this agreement?

4 A Not in that discussion. And I, as I say, I do not

5 have records here to indicate the timing of these things . So

6 the specifics I may get wrong, but I am confident of the

7 thrust of the meeting. Recounting that episode without being

8 sure of the specific sequence of events, as I mentioned,

9 there was a concern about a possible misunderstanding. The

10 content of that agreement was cabled by the embassy to

11 Washington and from the content of the agreement, from the

12 cable, we were concerned, I know I was concerned and I know

13 other people in the bureau were concerned that this so-called

14 agreement could be misinterpreted as an agreement between the

15 U.S. Government and Eden Pastora. As a result of that, we

16 communicated with the embassy the specific instructions that

17 this was not the case, that Eden Pastora should be so

18 informed, and we undertook to insure that General Singlaub

19 knew the same thing. So that was the context in which this

20 took place.

21 Q Okay. Thank you.

22 Now, the next meeting you had with General

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1 Singlaub would be the meeting that took place on either May 3

2 or May 8, the meeting that is referenced in this memo of May

3 8; is that correct?

4 A It may be that the copy I have is a transmission

5 error. The date at the top is May 8.

6 Q Right. But that is the next meeting you had with

7 General Singlaub?

8 A Yes .

9 Q That was a face-to-face meeting?

10 A That is right.

11 Q Now, certain matters were discussed there. First

12 let me ask you about the discussion concerning this question

13 of aid for Mr. Pastora.

14 A Yes.

15 Q He -- you set forth in your memo to Assistant

16 Secretary Abrams the fact that Mr. Pastora was looking for a

17 certain token amount of military equipment which he would

18 like to get from the UNO stocks; is that correct.

19 A Well, as I understood it, this was something that

20 had been worked out between General Singlaub and Eden

21 Pastora. I don't know whether the initiative came from Eden

22 Pastora or from General Singlaub. I am not sure of that.

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1 Q Okay. Now, the last sentence of that particular

2 part of the memo states: "Singlaub wants you to try to turn

3 this around. "

4 Do you recall that that was General Singlaub 's

5 wish?

6 A Yes, I do. He very much wanted this to happen.

7 Q Now, there is a marginal note up at the top which

8 Mr. Abrams wrote to R.M.. That is you, is that correct,

9 R.M.?

10 A That is correct.

11 Q And in it he indicates that, if I can just

12 summarize it, that he appears to be in favor of this idea

13 because it does involve such a minimal amount of equipment.

14 Do you recall that that was Assistant Secretary Abrams'

15 position?

16 A His position, I think that is what was — the note

17 was on the memo. That didn't imply a decision or a formal

18 position on his part or on my part.

19 Q I understand that. But is it fair to say that the

20 two of you together thought that there might be some merit to

21 the request of General Singlaub?

22 A My view at the time was that there was a role in

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1 the resistance for Eden Pastora. He was the individual with

2 the greatest name recognition among any of the resistance

3 leaders. At that time he was talking about pulling out of

4 the resistance and my view, and I believe it is fair to say

5 it was Elliott Abrams ' view as well, although he will speak

6 for himself, that there was a role for Eden Pastora and we

7 were interested in ways to encourage him to stay.

8 Q Now, turning to another topic at that meeting,

9 General Singlaub advised you that he was departing for

10 certain foreign countries with the plan to seek funds from

11 those countries to sustain the Nicaraguan resistance; is that

12 correct?

13 A That is correct.

14 Q Now, he named two particular countries which we

15 will refer to as country 3 and country 5. Do you know the

16 countries I am referring to?

17 A Yes, I do.

18 Q Okay.

19 Q Looking at the memo that you wrote, it appears

20 fairly clear that you seemed to be generally in favor of the

21 idea of sending a signal or indicating in some way our

22 approval of his solicitation; is that correct?

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1 A I wouldn't characterize it that way.

•2 ' Q What would you say?

3 A Let me read the memo.

4 My interpretation of that and my view generally

5 was that I knew that solicitations were — by the State

6 Department were legal. As to who would carry out a

7 solicitation was a matter for someone to decide other than

8 me. And my role in this, in this meeting, was to pass along

9 the information and the request from General Singlaub. As to

10 how it would be done, how it would be considered, that was

11 really a matter for others to determine.

12 Q I understand that. Let me put it this way: This

13 wasn't a decision for you to make, but you were certainly not

14 opposed to the idea. I mean, it did not appear to be in any

15 way an illegal request or asking you or State Department to

16 do something that you couldn't officially do; isn't that

17 correct?

18 A That is right. Solicitations were legal for

19 humanitarian purposes.

20 Q Did General Singlaub in these initial discussions

21 with you, did he tell you that he had previously made any

22 solicitations to these particular countries in the past?

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1 A He did not.

2 Q Did he -- was he asked about that, in other words,

3 did he specifically deny that he had ever solicited funds

4 from countries 3 or 5 or did that subject just never come

5 up?

6 A It never came up. Basically I was listening.

7 Q Okay. You then sent this memo to Secretary Abrams

8 to inform him of your discussion and then to determine what

9 should be done thereafter; is that correct?

10 A That is correct.

11 Q Okay. Hold on one second.

12 (Pause.)

13 BY MR. SMILJANICH:

14 Q Let me back up for a second. In your last

15 paragraph —

16 A May I say something?

17 Q Yes.

18 A It is, the meeting was on the 8th because the

19 subsequent memo does indicate the 8th. It is clear that the

20 first one was an error in transmission. The meeting was on

21 the 8th.

22 Q Okay. Thank you. In the last paragraph of that

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1 memo, you state: "The simplest way to handle this would be

2 over the secure phone. NSC approval will be needed." Why

3 did you feel that NSC approval would be needed for this if

4 this was an authorized activity by State Department?

5 A Well, any kind of a policy decision would have

6 required some interagency consultation. And a matter like

7 this, I assumed that it would be the subject of interagency

8 consultation. These were policy decisions that were being

9 raised and so they would be treated in an interagency forum.

10 Q Did you also believe that the regional secretary,

11 assistant secretary for that particular area would also need

12 to be consulted in connection with this, if it were to take

13 place?

14 A I would think that the Secretary of State would be

15 consulted.

16 Q All right. What about specifically the regional

17 bureau?

18 A I would think that — well, this is speculation,

19 but, sure, I would think that certainly the regional

20 assistant secretary would be consulted as well.

21 Q Did you bring this subject up with the — with

22 anybody in the regional bureau for the part of the globe

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1 affected by this?

2 : A I beg your pardon?

3 Q Did you consult with anybody in the regional

4 bureau that was responsible for countries 3 and 5 to discuss

5 this matter? ■ . .

6 A I took no further action other than writing the

7 memo .

8 Q All right.

9 Let me move on to the next memo. The next copy we

10 have is a memo to Deputy Assistant Secretary William Walker

11 dated May 10. Do you see that memo?

12 A Yes, I have that.

13 Q Okay. Now, basically that is just a memo telling

14 him about the same matters that you had previously summarized

15 for Secretary Abrams; is that correct?

16 A That is right. Deputy Assistant Secretary Walker,

17 who I normally reported to, was absent during that period and

18 this was part of a memo bringing him up to date on things

19 which had occurred in his answer absence so it is basically a

20 recapitulation of the earlier memo.

21 Q Do you recall when Secretary Walker, Deputy

22 Assistant Secretary Walker came back from his trip?

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A No, I don't. I would have to look at a calendar
but I would assume that it was probably a month, but I really
don't know.

Q Let me jump ahead and ask this general question.
In any subsequent meetings with General Singlaub, was Deputy
Assistant Secretary Walker present?

A I think, I tend to go through this series, but I
think there was only one other meeting. There were several
telephone calls but I think there was only one other
meeting. We can determine that as we go along.

Q Right .

A I am not sure whether Deputy Assistant Secretary
Walker was present in a subsequent meeting. If he were
there, normally he would be in a meeting like that, but at
times he was called away, he was on the Hill or he might have
been out of the country.

Q When we get to that particular meeting and as we
discuss it, we will see if maybe something about it helps jog
your memory and to whether he was or was not there .

A Okay .

Q So we will get to that.

Moving on to your memo of May 12, give me one

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1
2
3
4

second.

(Pause. )

BY MR. SMILJANICH:

Your memo of May 12, do you have that in front of

you!

A I do.

Q In the first paragraph of it, the second sentence,
you state that you had told General Singlaub that you had
spoken with Secretary Abrams on May 10 about the subjects
concerning the aid to Pastora and vouching for Singlaub. Do
you recall that particular meeting with Secretary Abrams?

A Only in general terms. Not in any greater detail
than is in the memo.

Q Well, is there anything you can add or subtract
from the matters you set forth to him in your May 8 memo? In
other words, can you think of anything in particular that you
discussed that went beyond what is set forth in those memos?

A No. It was to inform him basically that there
were -- that no decisions were reached on these things on
either, on any of the topics that he had raised.

Q So Mr. Abrams did not make a specific decision as
to whether or not to vouch for General Singlaub' s efforts

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1 with these countries or for his request to help out in

2 connection with some additional aid to Pastora; is that

3 correct?

4 A That is right. He made no decision to do either

5 of those things.

6 Q Did he tell you he was going to discuss those

7 matters with somebody else to help him arrive at a decision?

8 A I believe the way it went is that he said he would

9 be back in touch on those topics. And I was sort of in a

10 holding position, pending further conversation with him. It

11 was the kind of environment as it is in the bureau where you

12 don't always get a chance to talk through issues entirely.

13 You alert — I alerted him about this issue. He, in our

14 conversation, he indicated that he understood what it was and

15 he said he would get back in touch kind of thing.

16 Q So Mr. Abrams had not to your knowledge made a

17 specific decision to in fact send the signal to the foreign

18 countries that General Singlaub had requested; is that

19 correct?

20 A No, not at all.

21 Q Is the contrary true also, that he had not made a

22 specific decision to decline to send such a signal?

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1 A Not exactly in that categorical way. It was more

2 that he would talk about it some more.

3 Q But he hadn't specifically ruled out the

4 possibility, had he?

5 A He didn't say that I should convey a decision to

6 that affect.

7 Q And he didn't tell you that he had ruled that out

8 as a complete possibility, had he?

9 A He didn't say it one way or another. But he

10 didn't authorize me to convey a decision that we would do

11 that.

12 Q I understand. I just want to make sure that you

13 are also clear about the fact that he hadn't come to a

14 decision at that point to refuse to go forward, as General

15 Singlaub had requested.

16 A I don't know whether he had or not, but he didn't

17 convey to me a decision.

18 Q All right. Thank you.

19 Now, you set forth in your memo of May 12 the fact

20 that General Singlaub called that particular day; is that

21 correct?

22 A Yes.

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1 Q And he called from, I believe, country 3?

2 A I don't recall. That's not in my memo.

3 Q I see. You have just, you are looking at the

4 redacted version?

5 A That is correct.

6 Q Okay. At any rate, you recall he called from one

7 of these two foreign countries that he said he was traveling

8 to?

9 A Right .

10 Q Okay. And I would like you to try to go beyond

11 what is just set forth in your memo and try to recall what

12 General Singlaub actually told you during that conversation.

13 A Basically had any decisions been reached and that

14 was it. And I told him basically what is in the memo, that

15 no decisions had been reached.

16 Q Do you recall whether or not General Singlaub

17 indicated —

18 A Tes.

19 Q — at that time that he was in fact on the verge

20 of successfully making a solicitation and what he needed at

21 that very moment was some type of a signal from the U.S.

22 Government?

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1 A Going back to the beginning of this sequence, as I

2 recall it, he was making these trips, he had other business

3 that was taking him to these areas. So as I recall it, he

4 was making these trips, he would have made the trips if there

5 had been no issue of a solicitation.

6 Q I am sorry. Could you explain that, what do you

7 mean if there had been no issue of a solicitation?

8 A As I recall it, he was traveling to these

9 countries and he wanted to make a solicitation. But he

10 presumably had other business in those countries as well

11 which he did not discuss with me. So even without a

12 decision, he made the trips, so his other business took him

13 to these countries.

14 Q I guess my question though is, do you recall that

15 when he made this particular telephone call to you, he was at

16 that very time engaged in this process of soliciting funds

17 and needed — and that was why he called you, because he

18 needed a decision as soon as possible?

19 A Well, not to my knowledge. He was in the

20 country. He had said in the first meeting that he sought

21 some official indication that he was making these requests

22 and that we were aware of it. So he was looking for that to

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1 make his request. And that was never forthcoming.

2 Q Your memo states that you told General Singlaub

3 that you wanted to be helpful, that Secretary Abrams wanted

4 to be helpful on both issues, but that the appropriate White

5 House officials had been unavailable. What do you recall

6 about that particular matter?

7 A That was in the nature, as I recall it, of a

8 general kind of response to General Singlaub. General

9 Singlaub was a man who was held in high regard and regardless

10 of these specific issues, there was no desire on anyone's

11 part to gratuitously offend him. So that in my conversations

12 with him, I was conveying that sense or I sought to convey

13 that sense. That's certainly my recollection, that is, that

14 Assistant Secretary Abrams wanted to convey that as well.

15 Q Okay. Well, what appropriate White House

16 officials were you referring to in your memo?

17 A Specific White House officials?

18 Q Yes.

19 A In a generic sense, appropriate officials could

20 have been — White House could have been left out very

21 easily. I had no specific officials in mind.

22 Q But you specifically told General Singlaub that

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1 the appropriate White House officials were unavailable, but

2 what you are telling me is that you in fact had no specific

3 officials in mind?

4 A That's right.

5 Q So you hadn't been attempting to reach specific

6 White House officials who were in fact unavailable; is that

7 correct?
A Not at all.

9 Q Would it be fair to say that based on what you

10 knew about, as you mentioned, that General Singlaub was a

11 well respected American of some reputation that you were

12 basically, I don't mean to put this in a pejorative sense,

13 but that you were basically putting him off, because no

14 specific decision had been made and you just didn't want to

15 bluntly tell him that nobody had been consulted? Is that a

16 fair statement?

17 A That is it. This was a temporizing response.

18 That is exactly what it was.

19 Q Okay.

20 Now, then you set forwards in your memo the fact

21 that decisions need to be made. A, about the limited amounts

22 of equipment for Pastora, and, B, whether to inform the

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1 authorities in these countries, foreign countries, that the

2 U.S. Government approves of his solicitation efforts.

3 Did you, after writing this memo, sit down with

4 Assistant Secretary Abrams in which he came to a specific

5 decision?

6 A Not at all. The "decisions needed" part is

7 basically there is no new information there. It is basically

8 a recapitulation of the original — there is no new

9 information there. It is basically a recapitulation of the

10 original requests that were put by General Singlaub. And

11 they were stated just as a reminder to Assistant Secretary

12 Abrams, but they don't represent any new thoughts on the

13 subject or really any new information. It is basically a

14 recapitulation of the points raised in the original meeting.

15 Q Now, your memo indicates that a RIG meeting was

16 scheduled for May 12 and that perhaps consultations with the

17 agency could be handled at that particular RIG meeting. Do

18 you recall making that particular recommendation to Mr.

1 9 Abrams ?

20 A I remember writing it in the memo, but I didn't

21 make it other than that.

22 Q Did you attend a RIG meeting on May 12?

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1 A No, I didn't.

2 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Abrams prior to the RIG

3 meeting what if anything should be discussed at this meeting

4 concerning this matter?

5 A No, I did not.

6 Q Do you know whether or not the matter was brought

7 up by Mr. Abrams at the RIG meeting?

8 A No, I don't.

9 Q He didn't tell you afterwards whether he had done

10 so or not?

11 , A No.

12 Q Okay.

13 Now, why did you feel that you say both decisions

14 will require consultations with the agency. First of all, by

15 "the agency," are you referring to the CIA?

16 A Yes, I am.

17 Q Now, with regard to the decision number one,

18 concerning aid to Pastora, I think I can understand what you

19 were referring to there. But with regard to the second

20 matter, involving vouching for General Singlaub's efforts,

21 why did you feel that the agency was a participant in this

22 decision?

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1 A On all decisions of policy, an interagency

2 consultation process, it seemed to me, would be appropriate.

3 Q Okay .

4 Did you ever discuss this matter with anyone with

5 the agency?

6 A No, I did not.

7 Q Specifically, the chief of the Central American

8 Task Force at that time? Did you ever discuss it with him?

9 A Not with anyone from the agency.

10 Q All right.

11 Now, let's move on then to the memo of May 14,

12 1986. Do you have that in front of you?

13 A Yes, I do.

14 Q Okay. You state in there that you passed the

15 decisions on the matters of aid to Pastora and solicitations

16 by General Singlaub to General Singlaub that afternoon.

17 First of all, I assume this was by a telephone conversation?

18 A That is right.

19 Q Do you recall whether or not you called General

20 Singlaub or General Singlaub called you?

21 A I do not.

22 Q All right. Let me tell you why I would like you

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1 to think about that and get your absolute best recollection

2 of it. General Singlaub has testified that he was in the

3 process of making his solicitation efforts in one of these

4 particular countries when he received a call from either you

5 or Secretary Abrams basically telling him stop, stop whatever

6 you are doing, we have — we can't go forward with this

7 matter. And that he said as a result of that phone call to

8 him, he stopped, he stopped engaging in his efforts at that

9 time .

10 I believe Assistant Secretary Abrams' best

11 recollection is that this was a decision that was passed on

12 to him after he called inquiring to find out, well, have you

13 all made a decision yet.

14 So, you know, I am trying to see if you can — if

15 either of those jog your memory and if you could tell us

16 whether or not you recall who placed the call and under what

17 circumstances?

18 A My recollection is that throughout this process

19 that the person making the queries about whether a decision

20 had been reached, whether we were going to do what he wanted,

21 that the initiative was with General Singlaub.

22 Q Okay. In other words, you specifically can state

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1 that to your best recollection this was — you did not have

2 to call General Singlaub to change a prior message that had

3 been given to him concerning his efforts; is that correct?

4 A That is correct. In fact, I would not have known

5 how to get in touch with General Singlaub.

6 Q Okay. Hold on one second.

7 Okay, now, in there you first of all told General

8 Singlaub about the decision concerning Mr. Pastora . It was

9 about this time, wasn't it, that Mr. Pastora had publicly

10 announced he was withdrawing from the fight?

11 A That is correct.

12 Q And basically your memo sets forth your decisions

13 and your reasons for the decisions. Do you have anything to

14 add to it, do you recall anything else that entered into that

15 particular decision?

16 A Yes. I would add one factor and that is that

17 reaching his decision, that is, Eden Pastora reaching his

18 decision — he was making statements to the press critical of

19 entities of the U.S. Government and of course these

20 statements were not helpful to our concerns in the area. And

21 we had an interest in trying to discourage him from making

22 these statements. So I would add that to what is in the

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1 memo .

2 Q All right. Thank you.

3 Now, moving on to the next topic are the

4 solicitation matters, your memo states, "I told Singlaub that

5 I had been instructed to pass the following message to him, "

6 and then you have a colon and then you have an indented

7 paragraph. It looks, from looking at this memo, as though

8 you were very specifically setting forth word for word a

9 message that you had been told to pass to General Singlaub.

10 Is that in fact the case?

11 A That is very close to being correct. I wouldn't

12 vouch for every word in that indent, but it is the substance,

13 it is close to the substance of what I passed to him; that is

14 correct.

15 Q Okay. It starts off by saying, "the earlier

16 decision to pass the message he had requested had been

17 reconsidered." What did you mean by that?

18 A I would say that is loose language. I may have

19 said something approximating that, but loose language in the

20 sense that there had not been any earlier decision to do

21 this.

22 Q Do you recall —

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1 A I have looked at the memos and if you go to the

2 previous memo, the one dated the 12th.

3 Q Yes.

4 A The first sentence in that, "he called that

5 morning to see if decisions had been reached." I think that

6 is further indication that decisions had not been reached.

7 So it would be certainly imprecise to say "earliest

8 decisions," because there had been no decisions.

9 Q All right. In other words, between the date of

10 May 12, when General Singlaub called, and May 14, when you

11 discussed this matter with him again, there had been no

12 intervening telephone calls?

13 A Correct.

14 Q So to your best recollection, there had not been,

15 he had not been told that an earlier decision had been made

16 to pass the message he had requested?

17 A That is correct.

18 Q Then you go on to say "the judgment here was that

19 the timing was not right. To move now might complicate other

20 priority matters of importance of which he was aware." That

21 is a very intriguing sentence. What did you mean by that?

22 A As I recall, I think that is more or less what I

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1 said. And that language and that message, as I recall I got

2 that from Assistant Secretary Abrams .

3 Q In other words, Assistant Secretary Abrams told

4 you to tell him about complicating other priority matters of

5 importance of which he was aware?

6 A That is right.

7 Q Did you know what Secretary Abrams was referring

8 to?

9 A I did not . I took it to mean that it was more of

10 the temporizing kind of response that had been characteristic

11 of the entire process.

X2 Q Okay. But — - .

13 A I didn't assume that this had any specific content

14 to it. '

15 Q But you are telling this to General Singlaub and

16 certainly if it had no content to it, wouldn't you be

17 conceimed that General Singlaub 's response would be, what are

18 you talking about? What priority matters of importance? I

19 mean, this wasn't just simply put-off language.

20 A If I were acting, in effect, under instructions,

21 passing a message, then it wouldn't be required that I would

22 have to explain what the message was. And I think that that

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1 is the way General Singlaub took it.

2 Q In other words, when you were given this message

3 to pass, by the way, you were given specific language by

4 Mr. Abrams; is that correct?

5 A He gave me generally not only what I should say to

6 him and that is — but I don't have it word for word. I

7 wouldn't say that what I have in the memo is specifically

8 what Assistant Secretary Abrams said. He didn't give it to

9 me in writing and I didn't write it down immediately. It is

10 more or less what the message was.

11 Q But he told you something concerning priority

12 matters of importance of which General Singlaub was aware,

13 right; you didn't make that up?

14 A That is right.

15 Q All right.

16 A More or less that. I would say a word here, a

17 word there, but the substance of the message is correct and

18 it is a faithful reflection of what I told him.

19 Q And you did not ask Secretary Abrams and he did

20 not tell you in any way what he was referring to by these

21 "other matters of importance" of which Singlaub was aware?

22 A No.

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1 Q And when you read this message to General

2 Singlaub, did he ask you right then and there what you were

3 referring to? ^

4 A No, he didn't. He was disappointed, but he took

5 the message more or less as a military man would.

6 Q Did he ask any questions?

7 A He realized throughout that what my — what I was

8 doing in this and so he took, he didn't take it that he would

9 try to change things by debating an issue with me such as

10 this.

11 Q In other words, during the series of conversations

12 you were relaying messages between General Singlaub and

13 Secretary Abrams and not acting in your own capacity as a

14 participant in any decisionmaking; is that correct?

15 A Well, that is not entirely true. The decisions, I

16 certainly did not make decisions in these instances, and in

17 the first instance the contact was initiated by General

18 Singlaub with the requests that were in the first memo, and

19 my role after that was to convey what he had said and

20 generally convey back to him a series of temporizing

21 responses which culminated in edification of the decisions in

22 both cases.

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1 Q And when you use the word "temporizing, " what you

2 mean is, in other words, putting him off without —
,;3---' 5-"" .; A That's right.

4 Q — specifically rejecting it, rejecting the idea

5 abruptly?

.6 A That is right. I think that would be the

7 appropriate way, that we would have, that we did deal with

8 him and for the reasons that I have stated earlier, that

9 everyone had great respect for General Singlaub and no one,

10 certainly I did not have any interest in treating him less

11 than with the respect that I considered that he merited.

12 Q But up to this phone conversation on May 14, you

13 were not aware that these series of messages were simply

14 temporizing. In other words, it was still possible up to

15 this date that as far as you were concerned a decision might

16 be made to go along with what General Singlaub was

17 requesting; isn't that correct?

18 A I didn't discuss it in any great length. I think

19 that is reflected in certain of my comments in these memos,

20 that there was no conversation, no deliberation of which I am

21 aware in the bureau on these topics.

22 In the one case the — I am not aware of what

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consultations may or may not have gone on about the
solicitation issue. The other issue, the one of materiel for
Eden Pastora, that ended up that it was overtaken by events
when Eden Pastora withdrew from the resistance.

Q I realize you did not participate in any decisions
— conferences which led to any decisions concerning this
solicitation. But going back to my question, isn't it true
that up to the passage of this message to General Singlaub on
May 14, the possibility, as far as you were concerned, had
not been ruled out that such a message might be able to be
passed from the U.S. Government?

A That is true.

Q I mean, you had said in your previous memo —

A He didn't communicate that to me.

Q Okay. You had stated in your previous memo that
if it was going to be done, the agency might have to be
consulted with. You had mentioned the possibility of getting
NSC approval, so these are all indications that as far as you
were concerned, a decision had to be made one way or the
other, but had not been made up until the time you passed
this, were told to pass this message on May 14. Is that a
fair statement?

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1 A I think that is true.

' '2 ' - ' Q Okay . -

3 A And in outlining these things in sort of the

4 comment^ I was sort of outlining the interagency process of

5 consultation that, in my judgment. anyway, would be

6 appropriate in these circumstances .

7 Q Let's go to the next memo. May 15, 1986. Do you

8 have that?

9 A May 15?

10 Q Yes.

11 A Yes.

12 Q Okay. This indicates that General Singlaub called

13 again on that day, raising the topic one more time. Do you

14 recall that conversation?

15 A I recall it from being refreshed reading the memo,

16 yes.

17 Q Now, this specifically does indicate that it was

18 General Singlaub calling you, rather than vice versa. Do you

19 recall that that was the case?

20 A Yes. I recall all the calls were initiated by

21 General Singlaub for the reasons I stated, that basically he

22 was in travel status, I wouldn't have known how to get in

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1 touch with him in any case.

2 Q Okay. Now, going to the second paragraph of your

3 memo, it states that, you state that General Singlaub was

4 puzzled by your comment concerning the timing of his planned

5 fund raising initiative and it states, "I responded that

6 important events and decisions were in the offing and that

7 approaches by him at this time might complicate our efforts."

8 Now, in your previous memo you had, you have told

9 us you were simply passing on a message that you were told to

10 pass along. In this memo it indicates that you had to

11 respond directly to General Singlaub on his question. What

12 information did you have in mind when you told him that

13 important events and decisions were in the offing?

14 A I had nothing in mind. That is basically a

15 restatement of what the message was in another form. But I

16 had no new information to pass to him. I basically restated

17 the message I had given him earlier.

18 Q Okay. Well, at about —

19 A You will have to, you will have to talk about it

20 when you get back. I really don't have anything more for you

21 on it.

22 Q You mean that is what you told General Singlaub?

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1 A Yes. I think I said — I stated it a little bit

2 more elegantly than that. That is basically what I said.

3 Q Okay. At about this same time, May 15, May 16,

4 that time period of 1986, an NSPG meeting — hold on a second

5 — discussed certain matters concerning solicitation. Were

6 you aware of the fact that this was a topic which was being

7 discussed at higher levels?

8 A No, I was not.

9 Q On or about that particular time, a specific

10 decision was made to go forward, pursuant to some legislation

11 which specifically authorized State Department to make such

12 solicitations, a decision was made to go forward with such

13 efforts. Were you aware that such a decision had been made

14 at or about that time?

15 A No, I was not.

16 Q Okay. So when you refer to "important events and

17 decisions are in the offing," you were not aware that that

18 day or the next day such a meeting was going to be held?

19 A No, I was not.

20 Q Do you know whether or not your words in the

21 offing were words that were suggested to you by Secretary

22 Abreuns?

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1 A They — it may have reflected the earlier

2 decision, the earlier guidance that he had given me as to

3 what I should say to General Singlaub.

4 Q Okay.

5 A But I wouldn't say that is word for word what the

6 guidance was .

7 Q All right. Your last sentences, "I said that I

8 was unable to be more specific over the phone but suggested

9 that he talk to you on his return to the United States . "

10 First of all, the, your phone conversation with

11 General Singlaub was over an unsecured telephone line; is

12 that correct? Hello? San Jose?

13 A Yes.

14 Q But you had nothing particular in mind when you

15 told him this, that was of any particular sensitive nature

16 that you couldn't discuss with him on the telephone; is that

17 also correct?

18 A That is correct. I had nothing more really that I

19 could convey to him.

20 Q Whether it was secure or unsecure?

21 A Correct.

22 Q All right. Now, let's go to the next memo, which

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1 is May 22nd, 1986. Do you have that in front of you?

2 A I do.

3 Q All right. , That sets forth some talking points or

4 a memo to Assistant Secretary Abrams to prepare him for a

5 meeting with General Singlaub at 3:45 p.m. on May 23. Now,

6 do you recall that such a meeting took place?

7 A As I recall it did. I would have to check the

8 calendars .

9 Q Let me just tell you that —

10 A I believe it did.

11 Q Let me just tell you that Assistant Secretary

12 Abreuns' calendar shows for May 23 at that time a meeting with

13 General Singlaub. Mr. Abrams does not have any specific

14 recollection of that meeting. So he can't say one way or the

15 other whether it did or didn't take place. But he doesn't

16 deny that the meeting took place. He just has no specific

17 recollection.

18 So knowing that the calendar, his calendar shows

19 such a meeting and that your memo sets forth preparation for

20 the meeting, my question is, can you tell us you have a

21 specific recollection of your own that such a meeting took

22 place on or about that time? Let me ask it this way.

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1 A I can't.

2 Q Wait. Let me ask it this way: You recall that at

3 least some point during this process Assistant Secretary

4 Abrams and General Singlaub were face to face after that

5 April '86 meeting; is that correct?

6 A I just assumed that this was when it was. I

7 believe that is true. But I don't have any calendars here

8 for my own schedule, so I really, I would have to look at my

9 calendars. Did anyone ask Assistant Secretary Abrams'

10 secretary whether the meeting took place? There is a log in

11 the State Department that he would sign in if he came in that

12 day.

13 Q We don't — I don't have that information. But

14 let me just put it this way: Separate and apart from any of

15 your memos and any of your calendars, you can recall that you

16 were present for a meeting with — between General Singlaub

17 and Secretary Abrams on two occasions, one shortly after the

18 Pastora agreement matter, and one sometime during this

19 process involving solicitation from foreign countries . Is

20 that a fair statement?

21 . A Yes.

22 Q All right. Given the fact that your memo

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1 indicates a meeting on May 23 concerning that matter and that

2 Secretary Abrams ' calendar shows a meeting on that particular

3 date, I think we can safely assume that it was at or about

4 that time that you had a meeting.

5 I don't want to tie you down to that particular

6 date engraved in stone, but I want to get your memory of the

7 meeting that took place at about that time between Secretary

8 Abrams and General Singlaub. Go ahead.

9 A I think that is true, but I am looking over the

10 points now and I don't recall — I don't recall these points

11 being made specifically by Assistant Secretary Abrams to

12 General Singlaub. So I am just not sure whether —

13 Q All right. I will tell you what. Put the memo

14 aside for a minute and just tell us everything you can about

15 the second time that Abrams and Singlaub met.

16 A I have no specific recollection really. In my own

17 mind some of these things are blended together, there were a

18 series of meetings that took place with — well, meetings,

19 conversations, and I am not — I am really not very clear

20 that such a meeting —

21 Q All right. Well, I want you to understand —

22 A I am thinking.

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1 Q I want you to understand, Mr. Melton, that

2 obviously we want your best recollection. We don't want you

3 to speculate. We don't want you to guess, but on the other

4 hand, you don't have to be 100 percent certain of something

5 in order to testify that it is your best recollection that

6 something took place. So with that in mind, let me just ask

7 you again what you can recall, if anything, about the second

8 time in which Assistant Secretary Abrams and General Singlaub

9 met face to face to discuss matters . What independent

10 recollection do you have?

11 A I am afraid I don't have any.

12 Q All right.

13 A I really don't recall.

14 Q Let's look at the memo you wrote.

15 From all indications, looking at your copy of

16 this, this is a memo that you wrote on or about May 22nd; is

17 that correct?

18 A Yes.

19 Q We don't have any reason to assume that somebody

20 made up this memo and put your name on it?

21 A No, no, I wrote the memo.

22 Q Okay.

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1 Under the category of "fund raising for the

2 resistance," do you see that toward the bottom of the first.

3 page?

4 A The memo number 6?

5 Q May 22nd, yes. Do you see that?

6 A Where is the -- oh, yes, I see that.

7 Q "Fund raising for the resistance."

8 A Yes .

9 Q It states, "Singlaub is a good soldier and at our

10 request stood down on his planned approaches to the foreign

11 countries." That is what it states; is that correct?

12 A That is right.

13 Q Now, that was in fact true, wasn't it, that he had

14 in fact stood down on his planned approaches at your request;

15 isn't that correct?

16 A It is not specific. It is not precisely — it is

17 not precise. He never was authorized to do these things. He

18 had asked us to, in effect to provide some indication to

19 those governments that he was, that he at least was doing,

20 was known and approved of by the U.S. Government, and he

21 never got that. So that is what it really means.

22 He wanted to make these solicitations, I think,

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1 and the way he expressed it, that they would not prosper, I

2 don't think he thought they would prosper unless he — there

3 was some indication that there was a sponsorship or that at

4 least we knew about it. And he never got that. So that is

5 what actually happened.

6 Q I understand. I am just, I don't want you to read

7 too much into my question. I am just simply saying that he

8 certainly planned to make some approaches and he had to stand

9 down from his approaches at your request; isn't that

10 correct?

11 A As I recall it, he was going to these two

12 countries and he wanted to make solicitations while he was

13 there; as I recall it, he was going there for other

14 business. But while he was there, he wanted to make these

15 solicitations. And he, because he was, he didn't get what he

16 wanted from us, I don't believe he made those solicitations.

17 Q All right.

18 Going on to the next page of your memo, you list

19 three points to make with General Singlaub. Do you recall

20 setting forth those three points in your memo?

21 A Yes.

22 Q All right. The first point simply says, "I

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1 appreciate your willingness to cancel your planned approaches

2 on such sketchy information." What did you mean by "sketchy

3 information"?

4 A It was the telephone information that I had given

5 him that was laid out in the previous memos.

6 Q You go on to say "important national security

7 considerations were involved (explained)." Would you please

8 explain for us?

9 A There is no explanation. That is just a heading

10 that I didn't have anything more about this than I had

11 already conveyed to General Singlaub. If there was anything

12 else to be conveyed, it would have to be conveyed by Elliott

13 Abrams . This is basically a heading to explain this; he will

14 have to say what it is, if anything, that goes under that

15 heading. If I had more details, had something specifically

16 in mind, I would have put it there. But I didn't have

17 anything specifically in mind.

18 Q Did you believe that, I am just asking you for

19 your own belief and perception now, did you believe that

20 Assistant Secretary Abrams had made this up about national

21 security considerations as an excuse to put off an important

22 man like General Singlaub?

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1 A Well, I think that, and this is now based on what

2 I know now about solicitations that were made, and knowing

3 now that this was approximately the time when these things

4 were being considered, I would take it that that, that that

5 is what the considerations were that were on the table at

6 this time. But at the time I didn't know that.

7 Q Okay. Do you recall in the meeting in which you

8 were present when Assistant Secretary Abrams and General

9 Singlaub were talking, do you recall any part of the

10 discussion between the two of them concerning these national

11 security considerations?

12 A No .

13 Q Let me ask you this: Are you telling us that you

14 were not present when such discussions took place or that you

15 just don't recall one way or the other whether such

16 discussions took place or thirdly —

17 A I really don't have any recollection of that at

18 all, that the — I think that the — subsequently I learned

19 that the factor — in this case, if solicitations were going

20 to be made, they would be made by the U.S. Government, and

21 not on behalf of the U.S. Government. I think that is what

22 the decision that was subsequently reached was.

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Q When did you learn that?

A Very recently. Some of it on the hearings.

Q Oh, you mean this isn't something you learned back
then?

A No . No .

Q Oh, okay. Going back to what you knew then and
not when we all know now, are you telling us that it is your
best recollection that such discussions were not held in your
presence, or simply that you don't recall one way or the
other?

A I really don't recall. I don't recall really.

Q All right. You state in there your final point
under that category is, "private fund raising is a key
element of our strategy (explained)." Would you please
explain that for us?

A I had in mind basically that the President and on
down, that it was, we had stated we would need their support
for the resistance and they — they were receiving funds and
we were aware that they were receiving funds from private
donors. And the President on down, that was, we had
hopefully stated that was support for the resistance. It was
in that context. Nothing specific about any specific fund

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1 raising.

2 Q You talk of it in terms of a key element of our

3 strategy as though it were a part of an overall approach.

4 A I was trying to, when I wrote this, I was trying

5 to outline sort of the topics that would likely come up, and

6 the things that Assistant Secretary Abrams would need to

7 respond to without providing a detailed script for him to use

8 in such a meeting, so that the points are really in the

9 nature of headings rather than in the nature of specific

10 talking points for him to use.

11 Q All right. I don't mean to imply by asking this

12 question that there is some implication that there is

13 anything wrong with any of this, but isn't it true that

14 private, that his efforts at private fund raising to generate

15 cash for use by the Contras was in fact something that was

16 known to be taking place and that was, it was felt, was

17 consistent with your Central American policy?

18 A A general point, not a specific point.

19 Q I don't understand what you mean by that, a

20 general point. Not a specific point.

21 A Contra fund raising?

22 Q Yes.

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1 A Fund raising, I think most people were aware that

2 there was, that the resistance was receiving private funds.

3 And the U.S. Governmeot did not take a position against

4 that.

5 Q Well, in addition to not taking a position against

6 it, was it in fact a key element of the Central American

7 strategy?

8 A That is an overSTatement in the sense that there

9 was a strategy in which the private fund raising had a place

10 which we had decided where that place was and that sort of

11 thing. That is not an accurate statement.

12 Q Well, let me understand this though, if it is not

13 an accurate statement, why did you put it forth here as a

14 point for Secretary Abrams to make to General Singlaub?

15 A It is a heading that private fund raising, what I

16 had indicated there was that a point to be made in the

17 meeting was something that would say that we think this is,

18 private fund raising is fine, so long as it is within the

19 legal requirements of the United States.

20 Q Okay, fine.

21 The next and I believe last memo — no, two more

22 memos. The next memo we have. May 28, 1986, do you have that

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1
2
3

memo in front of you? Do you have it?

A Yes, I do.

Q Okay. Indicates that General Singlaub called
again to ask for reconsideration of the counsel not to
solicit funds. Do you have any independent recollection of
that call?

A As I recall, it is basically as recorded there.

Q Do you remember where General Singlaub was calling
from?

A No, I don't.

Q Okay .

A Well, it is indicated where it was, he was calling
from someplace in Washington.

Q It says at the end, Singlaub will be in town until
Friday. I see that.

A Yes.

Q Okay.

A This basically is a report of what he said.

Q I understand. In your memo you state that
Singlaub had said he had transferred funds from an overseas
to a domestic account to have them available for quick
disbursal if needed. Did General Singlaub indicate how much

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1 money he had available to him at that time for disbursement

2 to the contras?

3 A No.

4 Q He never gave you a ballpark figure?

5 A No. Never discussed it with him.

6 Q Did he ever tell you how much money he intended to

7 ask for from the foreign countries?

8 A Yes. That is in the memo. That is in one of the

9 early memos .

10 Q Do you have an independent recollection that he

11 told you $10 million?

12 A Yes. That is my recollection. I think that is

13 what is in the memo, yes.

14 Q Okay. And he asked then if in light of the

15 circumstances concerning pending legislation and the need for

16 cash, if it might not be wise to reactivate his proposal to

17 seek funding from his sources in these foreign countries.

18 And you state there, I confined my response to

19 stating that I would raise the matter with you and get back

20 in touch. Is there any reason why you just didn't tell him

21 then that a decision had been made and that was the end of

22 it?

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1 A No. In any circumstance like this, I would pass

2 the information on any similar kind, not even similar but

3 something where a request was conveyed to me where it would

4 require a policy decision. I would always pass that request

5 forward.

6 Q Okay. Let me move forward to the next -- hold on

7 one second.

8 (Pause. )

9 BY MR. SMILJANICH:

10 Q Let me go to the next memo of May 29, 1986. Do

11 you see that?

12 A Yes.

13 Q It indicates in there that you conveyed a message

14 from Assistant Secretary Abrams . In between the memo of May

15 28 and May 29, we don't have a copy of any memo that you

16 might have received from Assistant Secretary Abrams. Do you

17 know whether or not you discussed this with Mr. Abrams face

18 to face between those two dates?

19 A As I recall, it is just that basically to tell him

20 that the answer, the answer is the same as before.

21 Q I guess my question though is, the end of your

22 memo of May 28 says, anything I can tell Singlaub, question

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1 mark, and then the next day you are conveying a message from

2 Mr . Abrams .

3 A The message that he told me to convey.

4 Q That is, my question is, did you meet with

5 Mr. Abrams and get this message to convey?

6 AX saw him very frequently, and in the course of

7 our regular meetings he conveyed, he told me what I should

8 tell him.

9 Q Okay.

,10 A That is what I told him.

11 Q In other words, you raised it in person with

12 Mr. Abrams and he told you what to tell him? Did you say

13 no? I am sorry. I missed what you said at first.

14 A I sent the memo, and as would be normal in this

15 case, he wouldn't respond, I wouldn't get a. memo back but I

16 saw him frequently and he would say, well, this is what we or

17 I would raise it, I said what should I tell General Singlaub,

18 and in the course of going over a series of things, he gave

19 me the guidance on that and that is basically the guidance

20 that is reflected in the memo.

21 Q So your May 29 memo sets forth the substance of

22 what Mr. Abrams told you to tell General Singlaub?

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1 A That is correct.

2 Q Now, nowhere in this series of memos is there any

3 memo from Assistant Secretary Abrams to you. Do you recall

4 whether or not he ever sent any memos to you on this

5 subject? '■

6 A No. But that is not the way in which the bureau

7 operates . Memos go up and but memos do not come down .

8 Q Okay .

9 A That is generally true.

10 Q Okay. Now, let's go to the message that you

11 conveyed to General Singlaub. First of all, how did you

12 convey this to him, by telephone?

13 A Yes.

14 Q Okay. Do you recall whether he was in town?

15 A I think that is right, because the previous one

16 says he would be there until Friday, and I would, I think

17 probably the 29th probably was Friday.

18 Q Do you recall whether you called him or he called

19 you?

20 A I don't, but I may have called him in this

21 instance. I think I probably did call him.

22 Q Okay. And you state then the situation on fund

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1 raising is basically the same as previously described to him,

2 to wit, it would still be premature for him to reactivate his

3 efforts with these countries.

4 When you referred in there to the situation being

5 as previously described to him, does that jog your memory

6 that you were ever, that you can recall what discussions were

7 held between General Singlaub and Mr. Abrams about what the

8 situation was that was described to him?

9 A Regurgitation of what was conveyed in the previous

10 conversations with him. There is no more than is there, and

11 in some ways there is not as much as there seems to be in the

12 brief messages that were conveyed. But there is no more

13 substance. It was basically saying, no, there is no change

14 in the decision, and it is conveyed in language that is

15 designed to be sort of less categorical than really the

16 position was.

17 Q Your next paragraph says "we applaud his efforts

18 on behalf of the resistance and urge him on in his other

19 endeavors." Do you recall what other endeavors of General

20 Singlaub were referred to there?

21 A None at all. That is very general and it is in

22 the context of General Singlaub is, you know, an authentic

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1 American war hero. -~~. -.

2 Q And when you talk about his efforts on behalf of

3 the resistance, what perception did you have of the role

4 General Singlaub was playing with regard to the Nicaraguan

5 resistance?

6 A I had no detailed knowledge at all of what his

7 role was. I have subsequently learned a great deal by

8 listening to some of the hearings .

9 Q Let me exclude that, and I am not asking for —

10 A I really didn't have any real knowledge of what

11 activity he was engaged in.

12 Q All right. You said detailed knowledge. I

13 realize you didn't have any detailed knowledge, but what

14 general knowledge did you have as to his activities. I mean,

15 he was a pretty public figure. He didn't hide what he was up

16 to. I am just trying to find out what you perceived at that

17 time.

18 A I had read things in the paper about what he was

19 doing and that sort of thing and charges and counter

20 charges. And he was, he has never been hesitant to talk to

21 the press. So I read some of those things that, what he was

22 doing and that sort of thing, but I had no — frankly, I

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1
2
3
4

really didn't focus on him and what his activities were. I
really didn't have any great knowledge of what his activities
were .

Q Okay. Let me go back to the meeting, the
face-to-face meeting with General Singlaub which took place
after he had come back from his visits to countries 3 and 5 .

I ^*£tft like you to focus on that conversation one more time.
First of all, do you recall whether or not anyone else was
present for that discussion besides yourself, Abrams, and
Singlaub?

A I don't. And as I say, I am not — I am very hazy
on that. I really don't have any specific recollection. I
think you could probably establish this by talking to other
people as to what, as to whether the meeting actually took
place.

Q Well, let me just say this; Assistant Secretary
Abrams recalls —

A Had there been a meeting, it would have been
Assistant Secretary Walker.

Q Well, I need to find out what you can remember,
Mr. Melton. I can tell you this: General Singlaub remembers
a meeting. Assistant Secretary Abrams remembers a meeting,

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1 but recollections differ as to whether, who else was present

2 for those meetings. What is your best recollection? A

3 meeting took place. There is no question about it. I am

4 just trying to find out who you can recall being present.

5 A If we have definitely established that the meeting

6 took place, then I would have been there. It may have been

7 just me.

8 Q All right. Do you recall at any time, at any

9 meeting between Secretary Abrams and General Singlaub,

10 whether or not Abrams ever made a comment to General Singlaub

11 telling him that the highest levels of government, or words

12 to that effect, had made the decision that General Singlaub

13 should not go forward with his efforts with countries 3 and 5

14 due to other important matters at the highest level?

15 A Not specifically in those terms, but something

16 like that would be sort of consistent with the messages I was

17 conveying to him, designed to convey a, really a "no" to him

18 in a way that would be more acceptable than just a

19 categorical "no" and explanation.

20 Q Well, I understand that. Again, by asking the

21 question, I don't mean to imply that there is anything wrong

22 with any of this.

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1 A Consistent with the way in which all of the

2 messages were conveyed to General Singlaub. So I have no

3 specific recollection^of that language, but some language

4 which put the decision in less than categorical terms, no, we

5 don't want your help was consistent with the kinds of

6 messages that I was conveying to him throughout this

7 process.

8 Q I don't mean to imply by my questions that there

9 is anything wrong with this. In fact, it would be human

10 nature if you were going to tell no to somebody as important

11 and with such a reputation as General Singlaub, to look to

12 somebody higher up as the excuse for why something can't be

13 done. In other words. Assistant Secretary Abrams saying,

14 well, somebody higher up has decided this. That would be, in

15 fact, as I say, human nature.

16 My question is, do you recall that such an

17 implication was made at the meeting with General Singlaub?

18 A I don't specifically recall that kind of language,

19 but —

20 Q But you don't rule it out?

21 A Beg your pardon?

22 Q But you don't irule it out?

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1 A Well, not — I don't rule it out, but it is

2 something that would have put the decision in terms that

3 would make it more acceptable to General Singlaub. I think

4 that was the sort of the thrust of all of the messages

5 conveyed to him. And I think that, I am looking back through

6 my own memos , that is sort of the general theme that goes

7 through them, important national security considerations were

8 involved, the other things that I conveyed to him were in

9 that tenure. So something like that, sure, that —

10 Q Hello?

11 A Yes, I am still here.

12 Q I am sorry. Were you finished with your

13 sentence?

14 A No, I said something like that would not be, you

15 know, that is consistent with the kinds of messages I was

16 conveying to him and that would be, not necessarily that

17 specific language but something like that, yes, that

18 important national security considerations, that I think that

19 you are a patriot.

20 Q Okay. I have just got one other quick topic to

21 cover.

22 A Sure.

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1 Q During the time you were director of the Office of

2 Central American Affairs, there was an interagency group,

3 restricted interagency group referred to as the RIG, which

4 met periodically and included several people, representatives

5 from the NSC, the CIA, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Department of

6 Defense, and State Department. During your tenure as

7 Director of Central American Affairs, such an organization

8 existed; is that correct?

9 A Yes. An informal organization. True. It did

10 exist, and continues to exist.

11 Q Okay. To your recollection, during the period of

12 time from late 1985 and throughout most of 1986, was there a

13 smaller informal working group that, within the RIG, that

14 dealt with matters concerning the Contras composed of Oliver

15 North from the NSC usually, Secretary Abrams from State

16 Department, and the Central American Task Force director for

17 the CIA; do you recall such an informal subgrouping meeting

18 off and on during that time period to discuss —

19 A It is true that those individuals and often one or

20 two others would meet on various issues on an informal basis,

21 not a scheduled kind of meeting. But they did meet, those

22 three plus others on an informal basis periodically, that is

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1 true .

2 Q There were several times it was in fact just those

3 three that would meet; isn't that correct?

4 A That would be true, too.

5 Q All right. And when you say a few others on
occasions, who would be the others that might join this
particular informal grouping?

A Occasionally Deputy Assistant Secretary Walker,

9 occasionally Deputy Assistant Secretary James Michael,

10 Q Okay. But usually those three in particular would

11 be present; isn't that correctl

12 A Yes, maybe — that is right, yes. I would say

13 generally, Ray Burghardt from the NSC might be there
14. sometimes.

15 Q But again more often than not, it was the first

16 three I mentioned that would usually be present for such an

17 informal gathering?

18 A Oliver North was traveling frequently and there,

19 to my knowledge, there were informal sessions where others

20 would be present but he wouldn't,

21 Q I understand that. But usually North, Secretary

22 Abrains, and the Central American Task Force director were the

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1 three that more often met concerning these matters than the

2 others; isn't that correct?

3 A Yes, I would say that is true. The other members

4 of the RIG, you mean?

5 Q Yes.

6 A Yes, that is true.

7 MR. SMILJANICH: Thank you. That is all the

8 questions I have.

9 MR. TRAYLOR: I don't have any questions.

10 THE WITNESS: Could I add one thing. I was not a

11 member of these groups, so I am giving you information based

12 on my observations, but not as a participant in the meetings,

13 either the meetings of the RIG or the informal meeting.

14 BY MR. SMILJANICH:

15 Q Right. I understand that. You were not

16 personally present at these meetings but you could, you

17 could, you would know when meetings were being held and you

18 could see generally who was participating in those meetings?

19 A In a general sense, my office is on the fourth

20 floor and Assistant Secretary Abrams ' office is on the sixth

21 floor. And very often a meeting might take place before or

22 after a regularly scheduled RIG meeting, so since I was not

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1 participating in the RIG, I wouldn't be in a position to know

2 how frequently these meetings took place, but they did take

3 place.

4 Q Did you ever hear this informal group referred to

5 as a mini-RIG or a RIGlet?

6 A A RIGlet. That strikes a bell, but it has no,

7 that rings a bell but —

8 Q But what?

9 A But no more than that.

10 Q Okay.

11 A That is just an impression.

12 Q All right. Okay.

13 MR. SMILJANICH: That is all the questions I

14 have. And Tim Traylor indicates he doesn't have any

15 follow-up questions. So that will conclude this deposition.

16 I want to thank you again for making yourself available under

17 these rather unusual circumstances.

18 If this matter is transcribed and if we are ever,

19 if you ever need to refer to this matter, we will certainly

20 be happy to make it available to you for your review, should

21 the occasion ever arise. But again, thank 'you very much for

22 your testimony and that will conclude the deposition. Thank

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you .

THE WITNESS: Thank you. I would have rather done
it in person, but that is fine.

MR. SMILJANICH: We are all off the record now.

(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the deposition was
concluded. )

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RICHARD H. MELTON

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CERTIPICATB OF NOTARY PUBLIC & REPORTER

I, REBECCA E. EYSTER the officer before whom
the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify
that the witness whose testimony appears in the
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that
the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand
and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under
my direction; that said deposition is a true record
of the testimony given by said witness; that I am
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by
any of the parties to the action in which this
deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially
or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action.

■rH

Notary Public in and for the
District of Columbia

My Commission Expires 10/14/89

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DEPOSITIOtI OF BRIAN TIMOTHY MERCHANT

Friday, July 24, 1987

U.S. House of Representatives

Select Committee to Investigate Covert

Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington, D.C.

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 1:00 p.m.,
in Room B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, with
Patrick Carome (Staff Counsel) presiding.

Present: Patrick Carome, Staff Counsel, Heather
Foley, Administrative Assistant, on behalf of the House
Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions
with Iran; C. Dean McGrath, Jr., Associate Counsel to the
President; Nicholas; Rostow, Deputy Legal Adviser, National
Security Council.

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Wliereupon,

BRIAN TIMOTHY MERCHANT
having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness herein,
and was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION
BY MR. CAROME:
Q Good afternoon, Mr. Merchant. I am Pat Carome,
a staff lawyer with the House Select Committee investigating
the Iranian contra matter. Also present is Heather Foley,
an Associate Staff with our committee.

There may be additional lawyers either from our
committee or from the parallel Senate Committee coming over
and joining us.

For the record, I provided you today with a copy
of the resolution and the rules for our committee. I
understand that the National Security Council has previously
been provided with a set of those.

If we could just begin by your stating your
name for the record and your present job titles?

A Brian Timothy Merchant, Deputy Director of the
National Security Council Secretariat and concurrently
an Assistant Security Officerfor the National Security
Council

Q When did you assume each of those titles?

A The role of the Assistant Security Officer was

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formalized in early December of 1986, having been unable to
find a memorandum from our admin office to that effect --
we have looked all day for it — under Brenda Reger who did
that memo.

In actuality, with my assumption of System IV centre
duties, I assumed a security officer role as well for the
compartmented programs there and that was when I came
into that operation.

Q When did you assume your other title? Your other
title is what?

A Deputy Director of the National Security Council
Secretariat.

The formal title change for the phonebook was
approved 3 November 1986. The decision was made in late
October.

Q And I understand that as one cf your duties,
you are the System IV control officer; is that correct?

A As one of my duties, I was System IV control
officer, yes.

Q Is that one of your present duties?
A I guess you could say I am the supervisor for the
System IV control files now. We have a person who was
the actual System IV control officer, a detailee who has
come in since, I guess, February, March. He has assumed

those duties.

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Q When did you act as the primary System IV control
officer?

A I first came into there on — well, Jim Radzimski's
last day was 24 October 1986.

Jim Radzimski, just so the record is clear

Was the previous incumbent in the System IV control

A
system.

Q All right.

A I was on emergency leave that Monday and Tuesday,
and came — so I would have assumed the duties that Wednesday

Q Do you have a date?

A Monday was the 27th. 28th. I believe the
29th was the day I first came into the office, because I
was on emergency leave Monday and Tuesday. And I held that -•
I guess I have been out of the — sitting up there for about
a month now.

Q When you say, sitting up there, you are referring
to sitting up in room 300 as the System IV control officer;
is that right?

A Yes. Yes.

Q Just for the benefit of the record, could you
very briefly describe what System IV is?

A System IV is the secretarial correspondence
system that handles intelligence documents, actions dealing
with primarily covert actions. It is an information

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management system based on a computer data base.

Q Would you please very briefly review your job
history at the National Security Council?

A I started at the National Security Council
September 1972, started on the bottom of the heap, as a --
I don't know what they call it, a data processor, whatever.
Shortly thereafter, the night supervisor who was there
departed, I believe he went to U.S. Secret Service. I was
promoted to be night supervisor; and I did that for
approximately six years. Then I was selected to go into
the West Wing, as West Wing coordinator. Did that for
approximately three, three and a half years.

Concurrent with all those duties, I was involved
in all the day-to-day operations of the Secretariat and
acted as a de facto deputy. When Jim Radzimski left, they
looked for someone who had the appropriate clearances. I
was really the only person in the Secretariat; perhaps.
Van also has them. He should. And they basically just
transferred me from there into the System IV operation.

Q You, I understand, had previous knowledge of how
System IV worked; is that right?

A Yes.

Q And how did you happen to have that knowledge?

A Because our information management system is
based upon a computer system, and I was involved — although

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not extensively in System IV, but with the redesign of all
our computer systems while dealing with WHCA, which means
we look at the screens, decide the fields, are involved
in the conversion of data from one DMS to another DMS .
The audting, physical auditing of the data

Q Just so that I understand, I believe that you
were involved in some of the designing of the data bases
for the various NSC systems. System I, System II, and
System IV; is that right?

A Not extensively on System IV. But the others, yes.
Charlie Carr, the previous incumbent to Jim Radzimski
primarily was the design force behind what System IV data
base system looks like. I was aware of that activity
and, you know, had some input into it, but he was the primary
person, coordinating through Van, the Director of the
Secretariat.

MR. ROSTOW: Did you get the WHCA?

MR. McGRATH: White House Communications Agency.

BY MR. CAROME:

Q Could you tell us what that is?

A They are the network support for the National
Security Council. They also support other EOB agencies,
but they are our primary support. They support us by
systems progreuraners — what is the other term? There is
another term. Application programmers, computer operators.

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troubleshooters. Movement of equipment, that sort of
thing.

Q Whose decision was it to make you the System IV
control officer in October of '86?

A I think George Van Eron.

Q What is his position?

A He is the Director of the NSC Secretariat.

Q Is he your immediate supervisor or superior?

A Yes.

I would think he ran it by the Deputy Executive
Secretary, who at that time was Bob Pearson, P-E-A-R-S-0-N,
but

Q Was there a period of overlap between you and
Mr. Radzimski as System IV control officer?

A No.

Q He was gone as, I believe, you said on the 24th,
and you started on the 29th of October, 1986?

A His last day was the 24th. I verified this through
reading a PROFs note which said this is his last day which
formally notified the staff that I would be the person
responsible for System IV starting that Monday. So Friday
the 24th, 25th, the 26th, the 27th. However, I was on
emergency leave the 27th and 28th, so I did not come back
and return to work until the 29th, which was Wednesday.

Q Who wrote that PROF_notsJ.

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A George Van Eron.

Q In November of 1986, how much of your time was
devoted to your System IV control duties?

A I would say it was 75 percent of my time in all of
November.

Q And the remaining 25 percent, if you could very
briefly describe what it was you were doing?

A The remaining 25 percent dealt with Secretariat —
proper duties, day-to-day operations of the Secretariat,
System II, investigation matters, that sort of thing.

Q Could you please briefly describe what the System
IV control officer did, and J. am specifically referring to
the job you did in the period October-November 1986?

A The System IV control officer was responsible
for recording into the computer data base the System IV
documents that were processed through him, also putting
into what we call "document log" those same documents that
moved to the West wing. He was responsible for dispatching
memorandum that had been signed or approved to other
agencies and following whatever is the proper security
regulations that entail, which means if they were classified,
he would make sure there were receipts, that sort of thing,
to raaintian the originals in the file, so he was also
responsible for filing.

Concurrently with that, there were other documents

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that were processed by him which were not System IV
in the context of a — of the Secretariat management system.
They were handled in System IV, handled by the System IV
control officer because they were intelligence matters,
but they were not in and of themselves what we call System
IV. These included CIA reporting cables, whether they
were — they have classified code word cables as well as
regular routine cables. Sometimes there were documents,
intelligence documents or intelligence publications that
were very routine in nature. They appeared every week or
every two weeks or every month. So those would be recorded
in that system.

Q All right.

I will, I think, later get into a little bit more
of the specifics of the data entries and the handling of the
documents themselves.

I take it that in October or November of 1986,
when you were working as the control officer, that was taking
place in room 300 in the Old Executive Office Building;
is that right?

A In the loft of room 300; that is correct.

Q Room 300 is a split-level office area; is that
right?

A One part of it is a split-level office area.
The entrance over the — where the secretaries sit downstairs

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is split level. The other three — the four offices are
not split level.

Q Ana ara I correct that the entire loft area is
devoted to the System IV document maintenance?

A Not the entire. Most of it. David Major had some
of his, what we -- I guess, you could define as chron
files, his own copies of records that was handled by his
secretary up there in one of those shelves. But they were —
that shelf was separate from the other System IV documents
and there were some documents in boxes.

Q All right.

Were you the only person who worked up in the loft
area?

A No, I was not.

Q Who else worked up there?

A Kathy Gibbs, who was a secretary to David Major.

Q And it was just those two people who worked up
in the loft area?

A Yes.

Q Who worked in the room 300 complex in the period
that you were System IV control officer?

A When I arrived the professional officers were
Ken DeGraf fenreid, Vince Cannistraro, Gerald May, and
David Major. The secretaries were Kathy Gibbs, Pat Ra4btottT
and June Bartlett, Then myself and then, of course, Jim

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Radzimski would have been there up until the time — up
until the 24th.

Q Who was the senior person in the office?

A Senior person was Ken DeGraf fenreid.

Q What was the working relationship between you and
Mr. DeGraf fenreid?

A You mean like was it Cordial'?-

Q I guess I am getting at whether or not he would
be a person you would look to for instructions or directions
in what you were doing in your job?

A Well, he could give me some instructions and guidanc
yes. But he was not my supervisor or superior. I was not par|t
of his organization in that office.

Q You were not in his line of command?

A I was not in his chain of command.

Q Your line of command went to Mr. Van Eron?

A Mr. Van Eron, through him to the Executive
Secretary.

Q And who was the Executive Secretary at ttet time.

A Rod McDaniel.

Q But did Mr. DeGraf fenreid from time to time
ask you to do things and give you instructions? During the
time you were System IV control officer?

A Everyone asked me to do some things. They could
be minor things like check this number in the system.

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Give me a log number. Has this gone out? Have you dispatched
it? You should assure that this is carried across the
street. Nothing — he gave me no instructions in terms of
anything that could be defined as affecting the integrity
of the file — whether it was physical integrity, or of the
documents, or the computer data base.

C At the time you were working in room 300, I gather
that it was a certified SCIF or secure area; is that
right?

A That is correct.

Q Could you just for the benefit of the record
state what that means?

A A SCIF area is an area

[that allows for open storage

of classified information

Q I don't need too much detail.

A All right.

Q Basically it is a

A It is alarmed. It is an alarmed area. The alarm
system is monitored and responded to by the Secret Service.

Q In the period of October and November — '86,
when you were working in room 300, who were the other people
who had access to the room?

MR. McGRATH: Is it anybody other than the people

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you mentioned earlier?

THE WITNESS: What do you mean by accessed?
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Who else could

A Come into the room?

Q come into the room on a normal basis?

A Anyone on the staff. Any outside visitors
could come into the room. There is a cipher lock on the
door. There is a bell system, the letter V, so that if you
were coming there to see me, you would have been cleared
into the complex., When you got into the door, since it
was secure, you would press the letter V, it would ring in
the room. Someone there would buzz you in.

Q Let me see if I can be more specific. I guess I
am more interested in who are the people who could actually
open up the office at any time?

A The only people that were authorized to open up
the office were the people on the access list given to the
United States Secret Service, which were the incumbents
in the office.

Q The list of ncunes you gave before; is that
right?

A Right.

MR, ROSTOW: I have a clarifying question here.

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Did everybody in the — who worked in the room,
have the right to secure the facility at night and open it
first thing in the morning?

THE WITNESS: As far as I knew, yes.
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Were there other people, other than those who

worked there, who also had the right or ability to gain
access to the room themselves, open it up?

A As far as I know, no.

MR. CAROME: Could we go off the record just
for a second?

(Discussion off the record.)
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Mr. Merchant, were there other people, other than
those who actually worked in room 300, who were on the
access list?

A There were.

Q Who were they?

A They were members of the administrative office of
the National Security Council. Nbry Dix, D-l-X, Marcey
Gibson; Mike Sneddon, S-N-E-D-D-O-N; and William Van Horn. Tw^
words.

Q Did those four people. you have just listed have
the combination fo the lock on the door that you needed to
get into the room?

A To ray knowledge they had neither the combination to

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the door nor the cipher lock combination.

Q What was the significance of their being on the
access list?

A They were the administrative officers of the
National Security Council. Mary Dix was the administrative
officer; and if the Secret Service or any contractors under
Secret Service had to go into room 300 and it was secure,
physically secured, and no one was available who could
open it up, if the Secret Service had to go into the room,
they would have to get permission — going down the chain
of command from Mary Dix.

Q Could you please describe how the System IV
documents, the actual documents were maintained in room 300?
Let IS start with where were they maintained in room 300?

A Well, they were maintained upstairs in the loft,
some of them. Some of them were maintained in secure safes
in the secretarial vault. Some of them were in standard
record boxes approved by GSA and the National Archives in
the third floor vault as well. That was really the overflow.
We had no file space to physically put them on the shelves
in the loft of room 300.

Q Just so the record is clear, let me see if I can
get a clearer picture of where the documents were kept.

The main System IV files were in the loft area in
room 300; is that right?

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A The System IV control office was up there.
System IV files were up there. By "main" I don't know what
you mean. The ones that were in the -- in boxes in the
vault were System IV documents. ,

Q Where were the majority of the System IV documents
kept? . . . ■: .

A In 300 loft.

MR. ROSTOW: Are you getting at where were the

currently used? Is that a better

MR. CAROME: I will touch on that.
BY MR. CAROME:

Q I just want to ask a few more questions here.

The loft to room 300 had no safes in it; is that
right?

A That is right. "i

Q There were storage bins or storage files; is
that right? ^,

A Storage shelves, yes. I

Q And '; .

A Or cabinets.

0 And that was where most of the current System
IV records were kept; is that right?

A I don't know what you mean by current. What I
am trying to say is that we go back to, I believe, 1981,
or early 1982, when System IV was established. I had

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records in certain files back to that time period. The
numerical files, I usually — when I was there, I had
'86 and '85; but '84, '83, '82, '81, were filed in the
vault.

Q When you say in the vault, where was that?

A In the 300 — room 381 complex, which is the
Secretariat vault.

Q That is separate from room 300; is that right?

A Yes. And also in that room were two safes that
had sensitive, even more sensitive System IV documents in
them.

Q When you say "in that room," you are referring to

the-

A In the vault. In the vault. The Secretariat

vault.

Q Let's first go to the set of documents up in the
loft. As I understand it, these were kept in file cabinets
of some sort; is that correct?

A Yes.

Q And did those file cabinets have locks on them?

A They had a key lock on them, yes.

Q Was it your practice in October -November 1986,
when you were system control officer, to keep those file
cabinets locked?

A No, I may have locked them once or twice,

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I recall once or twice, but it was not a standard practice.
There was no need to.

Q Why was there no need to?

A Because this is a SCIF unit. SCIF unit means
open storage of classified information.

Q And what that meant was that anyone who could
be in room 300, could then easily have access to the
original System IV files; is that right?

Q That is right.

Q And just so that it is clear, I understand that
other System IV records were kept in the vault of the
Secretariat's office; is that right?

A Yes. The Secretariat vault.

Q Those would be System IV records prior to 198 5?

A Generally speaking, yes, they were.

Q And also some particularly sensitive System IV
documents; is that right?

A That is true, which also related to earlier
administrations as well. So there was no System IV
in earlier administrations, but they were intelligence
documents or intelligence activities,

Q But even from the years 198 5 and '86, I gather there
would be some particularly sensitive System IV documents
from those years that would be in the vault rather than
up in the loft; is that right?

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A That is correct.

Q Who would make the decision as to which of those
two operations the document would be kept in?

A The System IV control officer based upon the
content and code word perhaps of the document, what the
document was discussing. Or what program the document
involved.

Q So that would have been a type of decision
that you would make as the System IV control officer; is
that right?

A Yes.

Q If it is possible, could you estimate the percentage
of System IV documents for '85 and '86 that were kept in
the Secretariat vault rather than the loft?

A I already said the '85 and "86 were in the loft.
Prior to '85 were in the vault.

Q My question was I thought there were some
particularly sensitive documents from '85 and '86 in the
vault; is that right?

A A very small number.

Q Do you know if there were any for that time
period?

A Yes, there were some.

Q But it was a very small number?

A Very small, because it dealt with certain particular

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programs not in any way remotely connected to the issues
that are under discussion.

Q And just so it is clear, I gather what you are
saying is if there were a document relating to the Iran
initiative that was a System IV document?

A It would not be in there.

Q The same if it were a document relating to NSC
activities with respect to Nicaragua; is that right?

A Would not have been there.

Q How are the files — let ma rephrase that question.
During the time you were System IV control officer, how were
the System IV files organized?

A Well, they were organized in many ways. The
generic catch-all file was a numeric file, which meant a
document filed numerically.

Q That would be numerically according to their
System IV nximber; is that right?

A According to their System IV number.

^gmm

MR. McGRATH: You don't really need to get into the
specifics.

BY MR. CAROME:
Q Yes. You don't need to get into the specifics «
A Well, they are filed different ways.

MR. CAROME: Let's go off the record for a second.
(Discussion off the record.)

MR. CAROME: Back on the record.
BY MR. CAROME:
Q I gather from what you have just been describing
to tls off the record, that the System IV documents that are
on the main numeric log are generally files in one of two
places. First, in a grouping of files that are just in the
numeric order, according to the number that they were originally
assigned on the log? Or, two, subject matter files; is
that correct?

A That is correct.

Q Just in terras of volume, what percentage of the
System IV documents are in the numeric file, roughly, if you

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can estimate that?

A I would estimate 50-50.

Q A 50-50 breakdown between the subject matter
breakdown file and the numeric file; is that right?

A ^Y6s. ■

Q Who — let me start over.

Is that the system that you inherited when you
began as System IV control officer?

A Yes.

Q Who decided which of the two categories a document
would be filed in?

A System IV control officer.

Q And who decided how to set up the subject matter
1^ files?
'5 A Subject matter files were, I am sure, predate

16 both me and Jim Radzimski and probably Charlie Carr.

17 Q You didn't make any changes to them during the time
you were there?

19 A I may have added a file, you know, a key word

20 or something like that, as I am sure Jim added some —

21 as he may have. It depends upon the nature of the document.

22 If you got a document in that that never existed four years

23 ago and was a unique subject type document, you might

24 create a new subject to file all those type of documents.

25 Q Would the System IV documents relating to NSC

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activities in Nicaragua be in numeric files or in subject
matter files?

A They could be in both, depending upon the content.

Q And I have the same question for Iran initiative
documents?

A They could be in both, depending upon the content.

Q You mean either? They wouldn't be in two places

at one time?

A Well, one document would not be in two places.
But if you had two documents, one could be here, one could
be there.

Q I understand.

Could you briefly review for us the process of
creating a System IV document specifically the process of
giving it a number and getting it into your files?

A Okay. Creating is not the right word, because I
didn't create, okay. I staffed.

There are two ways that System IV documents would
come to me. The first, in any order -- the first would be
from the outside to the National Security Council; the second
would be a memorandum prepared by a member of the National
Security Council staff. The second would usually have a
System IV number on it that had been requested by phone,
generally speaking, or issued to it by phone or someone

came by and said I need a System IV number.

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The first, being the ouside agency input, would
come and I would put a System IV number on it, using the
next number on the list. Then I would put them into the
computer data base and process it as required. If it were
a memorandum going across the street to the West Wing, I
would also put it into the document log data base.

Q You are talking about two separate data bases?

A Yes.

Q What are the names for the two separate data
bases, or sort of the name you would refer to in your job?
Not necessarily the technical name.

A Well, the first is a classified term. I can't
tell you that. It is the System IV data base.

The second is what we call 'Coc Log," short for
document log.

Q Those are two completely separate data bases; is
that right?

A Two completely separate data bases, yes. Two
completely separate computer code words which required
access.

So if it were going across the street, I would
put it into document log. If it were going — or after the
computerization is finished, if it required staff go to
staff officer, I would put a cover on it and seTid the

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original to the staff officer, whether he was in room 300
or down the corridor, in a sealed envelope with his name on the
outside and I would keep a suspense copy of the document.
That suspense copy — well, there was also a read file that
suiranarized all the activities of System IV for that day that
I would put documents in.

Q I am going to ask you about the read file separately
later. So we don't need to talk about that right now.

A Then it would be sent down the hall. Then I would
file the suspense copy or retain the suspense copy. As
document action was completed, I would update the computer
and file the original destroying the suspense copy once I had
the original.

MR. CAROME: Why don't we mark this group of
documents as Exhibit 1.

(Exhibit No. BTM-1 was marked for identification.)
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Just for the record, what we have just marked
as Exhibit 1 appears to be — purports to be the System IV
document log for the years 1984, '85, and '86. It is a
many paged document separated into three groups according
to year, I believe.

Mr. Merchant, I show you what has been marked
as Exhibit 1, and ask you is that, in fact, the — a System
IV document log for those years?

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A It appears to be the System IV document log for
'84, '85 and '86, yes.

Q The very first page of what is Exhibit 1 is headed,
'1986 System IV numbers to be issued by NSC/S." It is a
page that appears to be somewhat different than the other
pages for 1986. I wonder if you could, for the record,
explain why that is?

A NSC/8 is National Security Council Secretariat.
These numbers beginning with the 42 number system — series
were for the Secretariat to issue after hours when the System
IV was closed, the control officer was gone, 7, 8 o'clock
at night someone calls requesting a System IV number,
it would be issued by the Secretariat. They are different
only — they are different in the numbering system to indicate
that they were issued after hours and not issued in the normal-

Q It is a separate numbering system; is that right?

A Yes.

Q And

A But only because someone was not available to
issue a, I guess, regular number.

Q Where was this separate log maintained?

A It was maintained in the operational safe in a sealed
envelope of the Secretariat.

O And I gather someone would be there 24 hours
around the clock; is that right?

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^ "A The Secretariat opened at 7:00 in the morning

2 and closed at 9:00 at night, normal hours. Someone would

^ be there until 10:00. But those were the normal hours.

^ Q Could you lust briefly describe how this log worked

5 or was used by you during the time you were System IV officer

6 A A document would come in. I recognized it as a

7 System IV document versus it being a reporting cable, somethin<[

8 that is handled in the data base, but not considered System IV.

9 Had a stamp that I would stamp on the document. I would
10 go to the log, take the next available number, write it on
H the document, sometimes maybe on two pages, if it were a

12 cover memo, and a cover — a cover note and another larger

13 memo, and initial on the document and a date by the document.

14 Q That would be for documents coming in from outside?

15 A Coming from outside. If it was someone requesting

16 it

17 Q For instance, if it were Oliver North or Oliver

18 North's secretary. Fawn Hall, producing a System IV document,

19 how would that process work in terras of getting a number and

20 all that.

21 A They would generally call. Fawn would call and

22 ask for a number. I would go to the list, the next available

23 number, indicate ~ probably one of both ways. Sometimes

24 I would put my initial and the date, or — the first number

25 I used on a day, I put the date. Until that changed, the

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next day, when I used the first number the next day, anything
in between was all on that date. So sometimes I would
just, say, in the early days, I believe, if it was used, I
would put my initial. The later days, I would put who
requested it by their code, by their initials.

Q Sometimes you put your own initails rather than
the requestor's initials; is that right?

A Yes. Because this doesn't mean anything. This
is a log. until it goes in the computer data base, there is
no record of the document.

Q And just so it is clear, I gather that from —
during the time period you were System IV control officer,
there might be some entries that have your initials on them,
but they could have been documents being created by or for
Oliver North; is that right?

A The entries that have ray initials on them are those
numbers that I issued, had nothing to do with whether or

not I created — well

MR. McGRATH: I think the question is if — if
Fawn Hall ealled and asked for a number, are there instances
where you would have noted the assignment of a number to
initials and not Fawn Hall's?

THE WITNESS: Well, as you can see

BY MR. CAROME:
Q For the record, we are looking at the fourth page

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1 of Exhibit 1, part of the 1986 document log.

2 A As you can see from here, it was generally my

3 practice to put my initials. Occasionally I would indicate

4 whom. For instance, Vince Cannistraro here. June Bartlett

5 here. June there. •. .

6 Q I guess my question is it is possible that some

7 of those items, during the time when you were System IV

8 control officer, that have your initials next to them but

9 which could have been documents that Fawn Hall or Oliver

10 North was preparing; is that right?

11 A Could have been prepared by any staff officer,

12 yes.

13 Q Do you know whether or not your predecessor, Mr.

14 Radzimski, followed t hart same practice?

15 A I don't know. You would have to look at his

16 list. .... . .

17 Q We don't need to do that right now. You don't

18 know whether or not he followed that practice?

19 A I don't know. I would assume he could have.

20 Again, this doesn't serve any purpose other than to say this

21 number was used and the next available number is this number.

22 Q When you say this, you are referring to the log

23 which is Exhibit 1?

24 A To the log, right. Okay?

25 Until the document is actually given to me, until

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I put it into the data base, that document never exists
because they may decide to cancel the number.

MR. ROSTOW: Or they may decide not to create the
document and fail to tell you?

THE WITNESS: That is right.
BY MR. CAKOME:

Q Is that right? .

A That is correct. If a number were canceled
and I was told it was canceled, I reused the number,
because we tried — we didn't — I tried to maintain
consecutive numbering, you know. If I was told it was
canceled, then I would issue it to the next available
document or to the next available request for a number.

Q All right.

I would like to turn briefly to the document log
data base. Could you briefly describe what that data base
was?

A The purrpose of the document log was to serve
as a locator, an original document locator of documents sent
to the West Wing of the White House.

Q And did that apply just to System IV or to other
NSC documents as well?

A It applied to all NSC system documents that were
processed through the West Wing desk. If a document were
not processed through the West Wing desk, it is possible it

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UNKieSIREI^

' 2

wouldn't be in Doc Log initially. Now most of those
documents if they came back through the West Wing desk
and were not originally in document log, would be at that time
put in document log. ■

Q And what type of information was contained in the
document log data base?

A The log number of the document to include the
year, description, subject, title, line, the staff officer,
the primary staff officer, if there were more than one, which
we considered to be the first. At that time there was only
one field for staff officer. Currently we have added a
second field. ' '

The document date, and then a chronology of location
based upon function key input. So that if a document were
set over there, I could look at the list of function keys
and say if this is going to this person, who is this
function key, I would hit that function key and the
document was recorded in document log.

Q And as I understand it, this was a system which
tracked only documents going to the West Wing; is that
right? -'■' ' ' ■ -• "' ' • •'■

A That is correct. "' ''

Q And why was that?

A Because staff officers had the habit of calling
the West Wing desk, when I was West Wing desk coordinator.

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affd calling the Executive Secretary's Office, and asking
questions about the status of their document. Well, to
alleviate that — those phone calls, and to resolve the need-
less activity of calling over there, saying where is the
document, when I couldn't say anything more other than it
is here, and to physically find it, I would have to look
on someone's desk, document log was created. So that as
the document log moved and the document log was updated
to reflect the movement of the document, a staff officer in
lieu of calling, asking for the status, can go to his
computer, call up the log number which he would have
to know, but if he prepared the document he should know it,
and could tell him exactly where the document was.

Q Let's take as a hypothetical example a System IV
document that Oliver North might have prepared to send to
John Poindexter. At what point would the initial document
log data entry record be created?

A Well, in October-November, I would create it
in room 300 loft, most of the time. If there were a
tine irtien I had to quickly get a copy, and I would say 95
percent of the time, quickly get across the street, I would
walk across the street and could create it at any terminal
in the West Wing desk.

Q Do you know what the practice was prior to the time
you were there during 1985 and '86?

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A I would assume Jim would have done it at his desk.
Q Correct me if I am wrong. I understand after it
was created, people's secretaries would have the capability

of updating

A Not people's secretaries.

Q the data?

A No. Not people's secretaries. The only people
authorized to create, edit, update data in document log, or
for that matter, any of the Secretariat data base systems
are, one. Secretariat personnel people; and for document
log, that also includes the secretaries and support staff
of the Office of the Executive Secretary, and for document
log, it includes the secretaries of the National Security
Adviser.

Secretaries vrtio worked for a particular staff man
could not create, edit, delete document log. They could
not create, edit, delete data base as far as I know, as far
as the system was originally designed, and as far as WHCA has
maintained that the security of the system under those
security restrictions remained in effect.

Q From what you are saying, I understand, for
instance, the National Security Adviser's secretary would
be able to go into the document log data base and update
it or edit it; is that right?

A Update it. They don't all have the edit capability.

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I can — one of ray duties is to control access to document
log; and for someone to have the edit capability, I would
have to go into that file, which is a separate file, which I
am aware of, Van is aware of it, others now may be aware
of it, but no one else had access to it. And I would have
to give them the edit capability. If I didn't give them the
edit capability, they could not edit. That doesn't mean
they could create an update.

Q Just so it is clear, did you have this responsibility
— did you have responsibility with respect to document log
prior to the time you were the System IV control officer?

A I had responsibility for document log ever since
document log was established. I established document log.

Q When did you do that, roughly?

A Roughly, i think '84, late '84, early '85, maybe.
It superceded a file that existed before called "Day Log."

Q There was a predecessor system to document log;
is that right? . . , . _,

■ ' ■ " ' " '"■'■ ]> .-.r
A Yes. <

Q What was that system? i '^

A Day Log . , ' '

Q How did Day Log work?

A Day Log was really established at the West Wing

to replace an older system which was a manual typanritten

WBA

wwliTt

- Q When was Day Log in effect? Roughly?

A Well, before — I have to go back. When I first
came over to West Wing desk, it was a manual typewritten
system of recording log numbers, titles, and action.
Shortly after I came over there, I said to myself this is
nonsense. I called WHCA up and instructed them to put up
Day Log. I went and used a previously established file,
just said I want you to clone this file and put numbers
on it -- not put numbers on it. Clone the file. I used
that file and instead of doing it manually, I put it into
Day Log.

Q And again it was a system for data base for tracking
documents sent over to the West Wing; is that right?
A Yes. But it wasn't as precise as Doc Log.

MR. McGRATH: Was Doc Log in effect in 1985?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. ROSTOW: Was Day Log?

THE WITNESS: Well, there is a version of Day Log
today, but that version of Day Log today is not the same
version of Day Log.

BY MR. CAROME:
Q What is it used for?
A Day Log today?
Q Yes-
A All oay Log does is summarize the activities in

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document log for a given day. We can't do anything other
than look at a day, give it a day. It cannot be manipulated.

Q What information is contained on this Day Log?

A Whatever is in Doc Log. It is like a retrieval
system. If I do 12 actions today, I could call up Day Log
for today and it will show me the 12 actions done in document
log.

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Thoma s
2:00 ^ ■

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starting with the period when you were Aft«iAtajit

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JhjiJ Control Officer, who at that time had the capability,
or did you give the capability to^ to be able to edit the
document log data base? ^ _, —, — ■

A Well, if we had no NSC y^aarctairV personnel
coming on, I am sure I could have.

Q I am not asking who you gave it to, who had
that capability during October, November?

A No one except iii'aiai''6fc«i. J ufl* Personnel , Executive
Secretary's Office personnel, the personnel in the National
Security Adviser's office, and that is it.

Q They all had the edit capability? '

A No .

Q That is what I am asking you, who had the edit
capability?

A I couldn't tell you that. ;

Q Generally speaking, most of the secretarialt
personnel had edit capability. Some of the Executive
Secretary personnel had edit capability, and maybe some of
the, one or two of the persons upstairs, particularly
night people.

Q How was edi.: capability controlled, what was it
that those people had that others didn't have the
capability? Was there a password? :;

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uneisi^nHF^

A No; when the document log screen came up, and you
could only edit, you could only edit under one section of
document log. The document log has three sections. You
could only edit. If you had edit capability, the field
came up, said edit. If you didn't have edit capability,
that field would not appear.

Q Was it a user ID specific limitation?

A It was a user ID limitation controlled in a
separate file, not known to the staff, that I controlled.

Q Was there also a separate password, one needed
to get into edit mode or just user ID?

A User ID specifically.

Q Was the document log data base to reflect the
removal of originals from room 300 for documents that had
been closed out and for which action was not ending?

A The document log did not reflect that, no.
The document log reflected the status of actions sent across
the street and it would reflect the final action taken upon
those memoranda sent across the street as they were returned
to the Secretariat.

Q Typically the final action would be reflected
that the document had been returned to the Secretariat
files?

A No, typically it would say what action was taken.
Document log does not reflect what you are asking. That

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would be the data file.

Q If we could go off the record for a second.

(Discussion off the record.)
-'i-^'vc.v. BY MR. CAROME: , • ' / , '

Q Let's go back on the record. '•',

Correct me if I am wrong, I am going to try
to describe how I understand the docximent log data base
works. I understand that it is used to track documents
sent over to the West wing for which action is necessary
or pending; is that correct?

A That is right.

Q And once a document is closed out, filed away, and
there is no further action, there would not ever be an
occasion on which to track it again on document log;
is that right? ..- .

A Unless there was an add-on memo.

MR, ROSTOW: I think what you mean is to add
information to Doc Log?

MR. CAROME: That is right; you would not add
information to document log if some one really were
borrowing a document that was a year old, taking the original
out of the files to look at it, to review it, would add
a document log entry for that purpose?

THE WITNESS: No. That would be the improper
file anyway.

UNClASSinED

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BY MR. CAROME:
Q Why do you say that?

A Document log is a locator for originals in the
West wing.

Q At the time when you were working as ij fn i i lb I Mil

i m LI lb I rill;

__f2jy Control Officer, would it have been possible to call up
document log records for System IV documents dating back
to '84, '85? ■ ■

A I would say, yes, assuming that document log
did exist in '84, which I believe did.

Q And on from that one could review, review or
track the places where that document moved during the time
that it was on an active document?

A Yes, assuming that their every place in time
was recorded into the system.

Q Are you aware of any change or edits made to
document log entries during November of '86?

A Not specifically, but I eun aware that I would
have made such changes, if I had known, if I had noticed
in correction, or inaccuracy in any document file, any
document record. It is a standard practice to correct
error.

MR. ROSTOW: You would not have gone back
to a 1985 document and corrected an error in the document

log then, would you?

THE WITNESS: No J

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UNttASSieiilT

1 "' BY MR . CAROME :

2 Q You specifically recall that you didn' t do anything

3 like that; is that right? i

4 A Not that I am aware of, no. To do B5 records

5 there would have to be created a new document log record as

6 an add on.

7 MR. ROSTOW: Whatever correction you typed in

8 in October-November ' 86, concerned documents sent to the

9 West Wing for which action was pending; is that right?

10 A Pending or closed out, if there is a correction

11 that needed to be done. If an '85 record is still open,

12 it is still active. \

13 BY MR. CAROME:

14 Q I £un referring to closed records, did you make any

15 changes to a document log record for a closed record?
•J6 A Other than for the normal editorial or audit
17 requirements, no, which is standard procedure.

f8 MR. ROSTOW: Which would be after action was

19 completed?

20 THE WITNESS: It would be at any time I would know

21 the error. If it is closed and I missed data but for

22 some reason I am reviewing day log for that day and I see

23 John Doe is misspelled, I will say, okay, that log I would

24 go to it and correct it.
25

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BY MR. CAROME:

Q Did you ever change, not simple errors, but the
actual substance of a document log entry for any closed out
document?

A What do you mean by "substance"?

Q I am talking about changes, occasions as to who
it went to and where it went? :,

A I have.

Q when have you done that?

A In the standard course for any specific log number,
but in the standard course of my duties? '

Q Did you do that at all during the period that
you were Assistant Control Officer?

A Yes.

Q Why would you change occasions as to where a
document had gone?

A Because, the occasions were incorrect. For example,
an item was sent to Bill /rnrtnpyJ or it wasn't sent to
it, it was sent to John Doe, and I had the buck slip there.

Q You were essentially correcting misftakes that had
been made? lj

A Yes, sir. '

MR. McGRATH: " '

. . •' -

Q Did you ever, during October-November '86, go
back on your own or at the request of somebody and change

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a document to indicate that it had not gone to somebody
when the record, the Doc Log indicated that it had?

A No; but let me clarify that. I had that
authority to, as Deputy Director of the Secretariat, to
ensure the integrity of all data bases. No one would
ever ask me to do such a thing. And based on sc^eone
asking me, I would, but I had the authority and responsibility!
and duty to assure that integrity.
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Did anyone ever ask you to alter a document log?

A No.

Q Entry?

A No.

Q That is during November '86, or even more broadly?

A Never .

Q Were you ever aware — I will limit this to
November '86 — were you aware of any attempt to alter
a document log entry other than yourself?

A Why, I know other iecHStai/ personnel have the
edit capability. The people at West Wing desk had the
edit capability, so if they were noticing any inaccurate
information on the System II document or System I document,
they would make the correction.

Q Were you aware of anyone making changes to the
data base in 1986, November '86?

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A Everyone m Secretariat can make changes to the
data base. : f

Q Do you know of any specific instances in which
someone did that in November of 1986?

A I know that has occurred by people.

Q You knew that occurred in November '86?

A It occurs all the rime. It is not an unusual
event, is what I am trying to tell you. It is standard
practice and standard requirements for people as they
know errors to make the corrections. Most of those errors
would be not in terms of the important history of the document,
they would be in terms of incorrect staff officers, incorrect
document dates, incorrect, inaccurate tersm in the description
of title of the document, a document or information added
to a prime document which had been added to an add-on
document, . j;

0 Let me— all of those changes that you are talking
about are changes that are part of the effort to make the
tracking of the document more accurate; is that right?

A Yes.

Q Are you aware of anyone trying to make changes
to make the tracking record other than the true tracking
record? ' ■■.•

-V... -. - > , j(

A No. ; . \ .r.

Q Now, if we could turn to the other System IV data

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ba^se, just for linguistic purposes, what is the word we
should use to call or to refer that the data, should we refer
to it as System IV data base?

A That would be correct.

Q Could you briefly describe what the System IV
data base i"?

A The System IV data base are all data bases in
the Secretariat's information management system. Its purpose
is to record into a computer data base and tracking
information from a dociunent, to include many things we
can touch on, if you desire, and also to record the history
of action taken upon that document from the moment that it
first came into the NSC staff to the final moment when the
action is completed on that document and we are preparing
it to be filed.

Q I have myself, just yesterday, saw printouts
from that, so I don't think we need to go into great detail
as to the type of information contained on that data base.
I will try to ask a few specific questions.
How many pages or screens of information are
there on this data base for each document?

A As many screens as is necessary.

Q Is it typically just, one page per document?

A I would think that that would be a good
assximption. It is as many screens — our screens are

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Infinite. So if I have to use 20 screens to record the

fact that 400 people signed a letter, I use 20 screens.

'Q Could we go off the record just a second?

(Discussion off the record.) ||

BY MR . CAROME :

Q During the period November 1986, or when you were,
let's keep it to November '86, what did someone need to do
in order to have access to an edit capability of the System
IV data base?

A There is no edit capability as such in the System
IV data base. The fact the data base exists means you can
duplicate it.

Q Someone who gets the data base up on the screen

can change it; is that right? jf

i' ■ '
A Yes, sir. _ ,

Q What does it take to get the data base up on
one ' s screen?

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BY MR. CAROME:

Q Let me ask you a few particular questions to see if
I can flesh this out just a little bit more.

A Can we go off the record for a second so I can
explain something?
Q Yes.
(Discussion off the record.)

MR. CAROME: Back on the record.
MR. ROSTOW: Only three people could, to your
knowledge, do all of /thsoei steps you have outlined?

THE WITNESS: Well, in System IV, but this is a
standard format for all.

MR. ROSTOW: For System IV?
THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. ROSTOW: But only three people could do it;
is that right?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

MR. ROSTOW: For System IV?

THE WITNESS: YeSj

WITNESS: Yes. sirj_. ^— .

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Q During November 1986, did you alter the System
rv data base records for any documents?

A I never altered. 1 edited, updated, created,
closed records.

Q For example, did you

A Which means a change in information.

Q What you are talking about is in the nature of
correcting misspellings or correcting inappropriate entries?

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A Or just recording what was done with the document,
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Q Updating it?

A Yes.

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1 "' Q Do you recall making any changes in November 1986,

2 to data base: records for documents as old as five or six

3 months or more old?

4 A I don't specifically recall, but if a document

5 that was five or six. months old was opened and the action

6 was completed on that document during that time period, yes.

7 0 What about for closed documents? Did you make any

8 alterations on documents that were closed out for as

9 long as five or six months at that point?

10 A If documents were reopened, yes.

11 Q What about ones that were closed and not reopened,

12 did you make any changes to those documents?

13 A Other than routine minor editorial auditing

14 purposes, if I noticed mistakes. If I were in a retrieval

15 system and saw a misspelling, or I changed it — for the

16 reporting cables, you know, I instituted a new system.

17 MR. McGRATH: You are not concerned with reporting

18 cables.

19 THE WITNESS: Okay..

20 MR. ROSTOW: So you don't specifically recall?

21 THE WITNESS: Not on System IV documents, no.

22 But on reporting cables, yes.

23 MR. ROSTOW: You don't have a specific recollection?

24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
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BY MR. CAROME:

Q In November 1986, did anyone come to you seeking
assistance in modifying, changing, editing, altering a record
in the System IV data base?

A No. No one would have that ability to

Q And, in fact, no one did make such a request;
is that right?

A No one did, that is right.

Q And to your knowledge, I take it, no one other
than you made any alterations to the System IV data base
during November 1986; is that right?

A Not alterations. Changes. The term

Q Was it

A Alteration to me implies changing data to give a
false

Q That is right.

A Okay. Alterations, no. Changes in terms of updatim^
correcting, recording v«rtiat was done with a document. That
was standard procedure, a daily occurrence.

Q Who else did that?

A In System IV?

Q Yes.

A The only people who could have done it would have
been George Van Eron, and John Ficklin. For practical
purposes during that time pej'iodj^Jthej^^ere not involved.

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1 Tliey are back-up personnel only if I am not there.

2 Q Do you know whether or not their back-up

3 services were required at any time during November 1986?

4 A I don't recall that it was.

5 Q Just so the record is abundantly clear, you

6 are not aware of any attempts to falsify the data records

7 in the System IV data base at any time in November 198 6;

8 is that right?

9 A I am not aware of any attempts.

10 Q By you or anyone else? ' '

11 A By me or anyone else.

12 Q If we could turn now briefly to the subject of what

13 you have described earlier as read files, could you tell me

14 what read file was in the System IV system? 'f

15 A Read file was a large accordian envelope, folder,
15 and I would put the suspense copy of documents — of System

17 IV documents. I didn't have the original. And the original

18 IV copy of System IV documents where action was completed,

19 into that folder, and circulated cunong the senior directorate

20 staff of the intelligence directorate for them. And it

21 reflected the day's activity in System IV.

22 Q And those documents, either copies or originals,

23 would be circulated to the other professionals in the

24 room 300 complex; is that right? * -»'

25 A That is right.

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Q Was it circulated outside room 300?
A Never by me, no.

Q And what was the purpose of circulating all the
System IV documents to those people?

A To keep the intelligence directorate head and his
immediate staff knowledgeable of what was going on.

MR. McGRATH: Would the suspense original ever
be circulated in that read file without the computer
entry?

THE WITNESS: There was no computer entry that
reflected the read file.

MR. McGRATH: No. No. No. The substantive
information having been entered into the System IV data base?

THE WITNESS: Very, Very Teurely, and only in the
context of if I were working late at night, I had 15 items,
you know. I would have it in Doc Log always, but I may not
have had a chance to put the last item in 4^ the data base.
It would go in the read file. I would get it back. But if
I did that, I would put notations to myself. Yellow stick-ems
on ray lamp. That rarely happened. My practice was not to
put something in the read file that was not in the data base.
BY MR. CAROME:
Q Just so it is clear, it was your practice to
put into the read file all incoming System IV documents;

is that right?

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A Suspense copies or originals, if they required no
action; yes. '' i

Q Do you know whether or not your predecessor, Mr.
Radzimski, followed a similar practice? ' *

A I believe that he did.

Q And what do you base that belief on?

A It seems logical to me that he would have. He
may have mentioned it. I don't specifically recall him
mentioning it, but he also may have mentioned it.

Q I gather, that in November 1986, when you took up

this practice, or began yourself circulating a read file, it

did not come as a surprise to the professionals in room 300

that you were doing it; is that right? They didn't say

why are you doing this? ;.-

I'
A I don't think so, no. ■ •

Q And just so it is clear, who are the people who
would see the read file in November 1986? .;

A Well, it would be routed to the professionals.
Ken DeGraf fenreid, Vince Cannistraro — always to Ken
DeGraf fenreid first, and the others who could see it, and
not necessarily saw it all the time would be Vince Cannistraro
Gerald May, David Major and, of course, the secretaries
downstairs, primarily June Bartlett and Pat Ralston, and
rarely the secretary upstairs. If it came upstairs, it came

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Q And did this read file circulate from person to
person in the normal course?

A What do you mean by in the normal course? It was
there to be circulated to all the professionals downstairs.

MR. ROSTOW; Could the professionals have shown
the read file to someone outside of room 300?
THE WITNESS: They could have.
(Exhibit No. BTM-2 and 3, were marked for
identification. )

BY MR. CAROME:
Q Mr. Merchant, I show you what has been marked
as Exhibit 2. I will state for the; record that it is
a Xeroxed copy of a piece of paper that says at the top,
"White House" — or "The White House, Washington."
Let's go off the record for a second.
(Discussion off the record.

BY MR. CAROME:
Q It has a Roman Numeral IV at the top, and then
six numbers on it, among other notations.

MR. ROSTOW: The record should reflect the Roman
Numeral and the numbers zure handwritten.
BY MR. CAROME:
Q And I ask you, Mr. Merchant, do you recognize what

that document is?

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What is it?

A It is a list of numbers that was given to me to go
to the files and pull these System IV documents.

0 I guess if you could just tell us in narrative
fojm what the incident was that this piece of paper
i.elated to.

A Well, as I recall, I believe this was on my desk,
and

Q Was an original handwritten copy on your desk
or was it a Xeroxed copy; do you recall? ' "

A I don't recall. But I don't think it was the
original, no. ;! 2r

And it was indicated to me, I believe, by June
Bartlett, that these numbers were requested by Ken .DeGraf fenrejLd
and would I pull the documents. m .y

So, based upon that request, I went into the
files looking for the documents. I was able to find all but
one of the documents; the one document that I did not find
I circled and I wrote a note — I Xeroxed this on a larger
piece of paper and wrote a note.

Q Let me stop you right there and show you what has
been marked as Exhibit 3, and ask you is that the note that
you were referring to?

A Yes. That is the note I was referring to.

Why don't you continue wi

I't you continue with- tb«

e story?

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A And I dated it November 21, 1986, which was the
date of the request, and the date of the response. And I
said the contents of the note. Do you want me to read this?

Q No, you don't have to.

What did you do with the note and the documents
you pulled?

A I put this on top of the documents.

Q When you say this, you are referring to?

A A sheet of paper just like this.

Q A copy of what is marked Exhibit 3; is that
right?

A Yes.

Q And you put that together with the documents, and
where did you put the documents?

A I believe I gave them to June Bartlett. Might have
put them on her desk, if she wasn't there, but I took them
downstairs to her desk. • j

Q All of what you just described happened on November
21st, 1986; is that right?

A Yes.

Q Just for the record, who is June Bartlett?

A The secretary to Ken DeGraf fenreid.

MR. ROSTOW: All of this occurred in room 300?
THE WITNESS: Yes.

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BY MR. CAROME:

Q Do you recall whether June Bartlett orally
asked you to pull out these documents? Is that what you
recall happening?

A My recollection is that it was on the — this
note was on my desk. We probably talked. I may have
asked

Q We, meaning you and June Bartlett?

A I said what is this, why is it on my desk; or she
may have had a PROFs note to me, which I don't believe
there was a PROFs note. She may have buzzed me on the
intercom assuring that I had seen this. So I believe
there was some sort of conversation, very briefly, to say that
hey, did you see this, this note, this list?

Q Did June Bartlett say that it was Ken DeGraf fenreid
who wanted these documents pulled? ^

A I am under the impression that I recall that that
was the case. But if it weren't, then I would assume it was
the case, because she worked for him.

MR. McGRATH: Do you have any specific recollection
of her saying that Ken wanted them?

THE WITNESS: I can't say specifically, no.
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Do you think it is more likely than not that she
actually said Ken wants these, or word? to that effect?

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A I think it is likely that she did, yes.

Q Did Ms. Bartlett say anything to you about why
it was these documents were being pulled?

A I don't recall such a statement, no.

Q Was this in the morning or the afternoon of the
21st?

A I seem to recall that it was late morning and I
responded early afternoon.

Q Did someone bring the note up to you, your office,
or you found the note sitting on your desk?

A To my recollection, it was on my desk.-

0 So it had been placed there while you were away
from your desk; is that right? .. ■ • .■ .. ,

A Yes. That is my recollection.

Q Did you at the time have any understanding of why
these documents were being pulled?

A No.

Q Did you know that they all related to Colonel North'
role with respect to support for the contras?

A I knew what the titles were just by having to go
into the system to identify the numbers to see where they
would be filed. So I was aware of what the topic of
the documents were. - -.

Q Did you connect that with what was going on at
the time?

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There was nothing going on at the time

on November 21st.

Q Well, you knew at that time that there was a major
uproar over the Iran arms deals; is that right?

A There was an uproar in parts of Washington. There
was no investigation and no formal requirement or any such
other thing.

Q But you did not connect this request for these
documents in any way with the ongoing controversy about the
Iran arms deals; is that right.

Q No.

MR. ROSTOW: Did you recognize the handwriting?
THE WITNESS: At the time, no.
BY MR. CAROMEi . ' ' ■'

Q Do you recognize it now?

A Yes.

Q Whose handwriting is it?

A McFarlane's.

Q Was November 21st the first time you ever saw this
particular list of documents?

A Yes.

Q When you say this list, do you know whether or not
these various notations written along the right-hand edge of
the page, one says "cover," one says "19 January," one
says, "Yediot Ahronot, pAge 7"; do you know whether
those notations were en this list when you gq.t^ i^'

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yifi!QS9Plil^i'

A I don't recall the notations on the list.

Q Do you know what they mean?

A No. ,_.._.,,...

MR. ROSTOW: In the normal course, if somebody
asks you for a document, you would get the document
without asking them why they want it?

THE WITNESS: Not in the normal course. It would
have to be someone in the directorate. It could be either of
the secretaries, you know, and the assumption would be made
if they are asking for it, that it would be for Ken
DeGraf fenreid or Vince Cannistraro.
BY MR. CAROME:

Q And I gather what you understood you were being
asked to do was to pull out the originals of these documents;
is that right?

A If they are closed, there is no other copy but
the original in the file.

Q And, in fact, were all the documents you pulled
out the original documents?

A Yes.

Q Did you, at the time you pulled them, have an
understanding that someone outside of room 300 was the
person who was actually seeking the originals?

A No.

Q You didn't know that it was North who wanted

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these originals?

A No.

Q What is the next thing that happened with respect
to the -- to these documents that you pulled?

A Well, I never saw the documents again. However,
I got my note back with a comment by June Bartlett that said,
signed out to Ollie North.

Q What you are referring to is the comment at the
bottom of Exhibit 3, which is circled; is that right?

A That is correct.

Q Whose hemdwriting is that?

A I would assume this is June Bartlett 's.

I initialed by it and circled it, and then
date staunped it. Then I went to the computer, for each
of the log numbers, except for the one that was circled,
and updated the computer to reflect that the originals were
with Ollie North.

O Which computer data base did you indicate that
fact on?

A The data base. It would not be Doc Log.

Q What entry did you make on the data base?

A I said, North, X, the date, which would be 11/25/86,
FI, which translates for information, and changed the "S"
code field, which we use for status to S, I believe, to
indicate that it was not closed, it was open.

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^ "' Q And those changes to the data base, as I understand
2 it, were made on November 25th,, 198.6; is that right?
2 A They were made the same date that I got this,
A circled this, went immediately to the computer,
g Q That was November 25?
g A November 25.

_ Q Did you speak to June Bartlett about what had
o happened when these documents were picked up by North?
A No. Not that I recall.

Q Did you have any conversation with her about these
documents after you got her note?
A Not that I recall, no.

Q Did you ever discuss the pulling of these
documents with Ken DeGraf fenreid?
A No.

Q And that is to include times even after November
1986, did you ever discuss it with him?

A Pulling it, no. Or these documents, no.
Q I believe that Mr. DeGraf fenreid has testified
in his deposition about a discussion he had late one evening
in December, when documents were being pulled, about these
documents, and, I believe, basically he recalls you simply
saying, these are the documents you pulled for North, and
you brought them to him. Do you recall that occurring in
December?

UNHASSIFIED

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MR. McGRATH: Do you have his deposition here?

MR. CAROME: I don't think I do.

THE WITNESS: In the course of my fulfilling
my role as the security officer and being significantly
involved in researching, locating, identifying, pulling
System IV documents for these investigations, I have
discussed quite a few, if not all, the documents that we
found with both Ken DeGraf fenreid.

I had to give him documents to physically look at,
to include the document with the computer data sheet that you
are familiar with. It may have been what I believe I
I would have been referring to at that time would have been
the computer data sheets, because I would not have had the
documents. , ''

And the computer data sheets would reflect the
fact that these documents, on this date when I updated it,
said that these documents were now with Ollie North,
because these numbers were in the list of numbers that
we turned up in the search, but we could not produce the
documents because they were not there. They had been

given to Ollie North; according to this note.

... - "
BY MR. CAROME: ''

Q And, in fact, you never got the documents back?

A I never got the documents back. '_

0 Was that the first time since you became System IV

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control officer that original documents were requested
by someone else? =

A Of me?

Q Yes.

A Yes.

Q Was that the only time that that occurred, in
January? I am sorry. I am sorry. In November 1986?

A I believe so.

Q And specifically do you recall any other instances
other than the one we were talking about before during
November 1986, in which anyone asked for or received originals
of System IV documents from you?

A I don't recall, but as I said to you before, I
have a listy a classified list that I have done on ray own
that records all requests for System IV documents beginning
with these documents by anyone of me from this date forward.

Q And when you say this date, what date are you
referring to?

A November 25th.

o That was the date on which you started keeping that
list; is that right?

A No. I started the list actually later. But up
until the date I started the list and requirement that sought
such a list, there have been no intervening requests for

documents.

IINHI h^m^n

394

Q When did you start keeping that list of
charged out or borrowed System IV originals?

A I think it was mid December.

Q And

A It was based on an IC memo that had come in.

Q And at that point in time, or to that point in
time, between October 29th, when you started as System IV
control officer, to that date, the only instances, or the
only instances in which System IV originals were removed
from the files, to you knowledge, was the one instance
reflected on Exhibits 2 and 3; is that right?

A That I can recall. If there were another instance,
I can't recall; it would be on that sheet. I don't recall
anything else in November, though. That sheet is a memo
for the record. .

Q Did you, in November 1986, ever see. any other person
accessing the System IV original files?

A I seem to recall once or twice when maybe
June might have come up while I was there looking for soraethinc

Q That is June Bartlett?

A June Bartlett.

Q Do you recall anyone else at any time accessing
the original files in November 1986?

A No, I don't believe there was anyone else — when

I was there.

UNCIASSIHED

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Q And there were times when you weren't there;
is that right?

A That is correct.

Q And times during the normal office hours when you
weren't there; is that right?

A That is correct.

Q But, for instance, you don't recall any of the
following people, Oliver North

A I never saw Oliver

Q Or Ken DeGraf fenreid accessing the System IV
original files; is that right?

A No.

Q And specifically neither, do you recall — do
you recall neither North, Poindexter, or DeGraf fenreid ever
asked you for any original System IV documents during November
1986, except for this one event we have already talked to?

A That is right.

Q Are you familiar with the level of computer skills
of Ken DeGraffenreid?

A I am aware that he was trained on how to use the
Display Writer, VAX machine. I believe those two machines
are in his office.

Q If he had the appropriate passwords and-user IDs,
is it your understanding that he would be able to get into
the System IV data base and make alterations||MPI Ax\l|'||

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VNOU^lffir

A I wouldn't

MR. McGRATH: Why don't we rephrase that. You
really are asking him to make a very conclusive statement
about something. Why don't we lay some factual predicate
about his knowledge of DeGraf fenreid's skills.

KT^., ROSTOW: You have, in fact — the question
has already been asked and answered, because it has been
established precisely what someone would have to know in
order to be able to access the data base. '-

BY MR. CAROME:
Q I am asking did he have the basic computer know-
how to be able to do the various steps that we talked about
before in- terms of accessing the System IV data base?

A Well, if by comouter know-how, you mean the fact
that he was able to use his terminals, for example, a Display
Writer to write memos and things like that, if that is
what you mean, meaning he was familiar with the keyboard, then
assuming he knew all the other steps and requirements,
it is possible.

MR. McGRATH: Do you have any reason to believe
that he did know all of the other steps required?

MR, CAROME: I do not — oh, you are asking him.

THE WITNESS: Do I have any reason? „

No, I don't think he did.

ttNtUiSSinED

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BY MR. CAROME:

Q And those others — all right.

A I guess what I am — anyone with any basic
computer sense, meaning you know how to use a terminal, how
to put it on, and know all the other restrictions on it, you
should have some ability, if he knows all these other things
to do -- you know, to get into a file.

Q To yourknowledge

A To my knowledge, he did not know those things.

Q He had the basic computer expertise, but didn't
know the specifics to get into the system, as far as you know?

A That is right.

Q Would the same be true of Oliver North? If you
don'^t know his computer background, don't answer it?

A I don't know his computer background. I just
know that staff was trained on how to use Display Writers.

Q And the staff

A And the VAX machines by WHCA personnel.

MR. McGRATH: We can stipulate that Ollie did
know how to use the PROF system.

MR. ROSTOW: But that he couldn't spell.
BY MR. CAROME:

Q Did you, during the course of your work at the NSC,
come to know Oliver North?

UNCIASHD

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OlmA^nO

A Yes.

Q Did you know him well?

A I thought I knew him okay. Not socially.

Q Did you see him on a daily basis at work?

A No. Maybe every other day. Just in the course

of — maybe business or walking down the hall, or something
like that.

Q Where was his office in November 1986, with respect

to your office? How close was it?

A His office was in room 302, which is somewhat —

an adjacent office around the corner.

MR. ROSTOW: 302 is not in any way connected with
room 300; is that right?

THE WITNESS: There is no physical connection
between them. You have to exit one door and go in through
another door.

BY MR . CAROME : ' ' . . ; ^ H' ■

Q Did you have any conversation with him about his
System IV documents in November 1986?

A No. Not that I can recall. No.

Q Did you, during the course of your work at the

NSC, come to know John Poindexter?
A Yes.
Q Did you come to know him well?
A Not socially, but pretty well, i thought.

UNcussra

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UNfiASSBEft;'

Q Did you have regular contact with him at work?

A When I was West Wing desk coordinator, he was the
one that really said he wanted me over in that position and
I was able to go directly to him if I wanted to on any
issue.

Q During November 1986, did you have any contact with
Poindexter?

A Other than routine things, which means if I was
walking upstairs and — delivering a memo, memos, things like
that. But not in the context I think you are meaning.

Q Did you have any talks with him in November 1986,
about System IV documents or System IV data base or accessing
original documents or anything like that?

A No.

Q Were you aware at any time in November 1986, of any
attempts by anyone to clean up the files at the NSC in terms
of shredding documents, destroying documents, altering
documents?

A No. And I specifically addressed this to
altering documents. The destruction and shredding of
documents in all the staff was a routine thing. I mean
I destroyed and shredded documents as a routine part of my

job. .'■:''* ^ ■' ' •' ■ ;

Q Were you aware of any shredding with increased
intensity going on in November 1986?

UNtlASSIfe

400

tWttKSiffiT

A I wasn't aware of such a thing, no.

Q I don't have copy of it here, but are you aware
of the one memorandum which we have referred to many times
in our committee's hearings, that is often referred to as the
diversion memorandum, which refers to the diversion of funds
from the Iranian arms sales to the Nicaraguan Resistance.

Q I am aware of it, yes.

A And putting aside the fact that there may be
slightly different versions of that document, are you aware
of any other documents, NSC documents, that refer to the
diversion of funds from the Iranian arms sales to the Nicaraguai,
contras?

A No , I am not .

Q You don't recall ever seeing any such documents?

A No, I do not. • V - ',.

MR. McGRATH: The so-called diversion memo, were
you aware of that prior to November 25, 1986?

THE WITNESS: It was in the Tower Board, I believe
MR. McGRATH: November '86?
BY MR. CAROME:

Q When did you first become aware of the diversion
memorandum?

A I can't give you a precise date. I believe some-
thing in the Tower Board report. I also — we may have — I
mean, when we did the search, we may have found such a memo.

\\m IMIEIL

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tWGlJSDiiBr

O Were you aware of it at any time prior to, to
pick a date, November 25, 1986?

A No. I would be aware of it bascially only in the
course of the investigation effort that we made to find stuff.
That was how I was awaro of it.

MR. CAROME: Let's go off the record for a second.
(Discussion off the record.)

MR. CAROME: Let's go back on the record.

I don't have any further questions. I want to
thank you very much for talking to us yesterday and
then talking to us today on the record.

MR, ROSTOW: I would just like to make an observation
for the record. That the diversion memo is printed in full
in the Tower Board in Appendix B and that the copy from which
that version was taken does not contain a system number of
any kind.

MR. McGRATH: I would like to note that Mr.
Merchant appeared here today voluntarily, that he was
interviewed at length by members of the Senate Select
Committee staff in the spring of this year, that yesterday
he met for approximately two and half to three hours with
members of this committee and the Senate Committee staff
in order to be cooperative with the committee's efforts
to get to the bottom of the System IV and the existence of
other memoranda.

mttisantB

402

RET

89
Thank you.

MR. CAROME: Thank you very much.
Off the record.

. (Whereupon, at 3:37 p.m., the deposition was concluded.)

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OF PROCEEDINGS

CONFIDENTIAL

UNITED STATES SENATE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

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IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION

DEPOSITION OF PHILIP HOWARD MEO

^^mim

Partially Declassified/Released on /J--il - /7

under provisions of E.O. 12356

by N. Menan, National Security Council

Washington, D. C.
Tuesday, March 31, 1987

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.-:.. CONFIDENTIAL

UNITED STATES SENATE

SELECT COMMITTEE ON

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION

DEPOSITION OF PHILIP HOWARD MEG
Washington, D. C.
Tuesday, March 31, 1987
Deposition of PHILIP HOWARD MEO, called for examination
pursuant to notice of deposition, at the offices of the Select
Conunittee, Room 901, Hart Senate Office Building, at 9:07 a.m.
before WENDY S. COX, a Notary Public within and for the
District of Columbia, when were present:

JAMES E. KAPLAN, ESQ.

W. THOMAS McGOUGH, JR., ESQ.

LAWRENCE R. EMBREY, SR. , ESQ.

United States Senate Select
Committee on Secret Military
Assistance to Iran and the
Nicaraguan Opposition

Room 901

Hart Senate Office Building

Washington, D. C.

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ.
KENNETH R. BUCK, ESQ.
House Select Committee
U.S. Capitol
Room H-419
Washington, D. C. 20515

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EXHIBITS

DEPOSITION EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED
Exhibit 1 10

Exhibi€ 2 37 .

I CONTENTS

WITNISS EXAMINATION

I Philip Howard Meo

3 I by Mr. Kaplan 3
by Mr. Fryman 4 2

4 I

5 I

I
6!

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1 PJioCMIDlMGS

?. Whereupon,

3 PHILIP HOWARD MKO

4 was callod as a witness and, havim; Eirst been iluLy swoin,

5 was examined arid testified as CoJJows:

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. KAPLAN:

8 Q (Jood morning. Mr. M«««*4, my name is .lames E.

9 KaplaJi. I represent the Senate Se]ect Committee on Secret

10 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition.

11 As we discussed a bit earlier, you are appearing here today

12 pursuant to a fm^imt subpoena issued by oiir committee tor T*-

13 your testimony' in aannaatiaw wi t>i i>ia< .^ubpuiurid', you have 5Tt^

14 produced documents or a liocument that is responsive and

15 represented that you don't have any other documents in your

16 possession, custody or control that would be responsive to

17 that subpoena.

18 I wiJl be initially asking questioris today. As

19 you know, Tom Fryman Erom the H(5use Seloct Commit teo is here

20 and may have a tew questions to ask you wheti my inquiry is

21 complete.

22 If you don't understand ariy question, or if ytiu

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want me to c:ldriCy any ot the wording that I use or
otherwise, pjease feel free to ask me. I note for the record
that you are -ippeariiKj here today without counsel, and th-it
is by your own choice.
A Right.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Could you please state your nane for the record.

Philip Howard Meo.

Your hone address, Mr. Meo?

Q Do you have a business address?

A 824 East Baltiaore Street, Baltimore, Maryland
20212.

Q Hith whoa are you eaployed?

A Aijora Publishing Company.

Q What kinds of duties do you perform?

A I sim a graphic artist.

Q Could you describe your post-secondary education?

A As college? I have had one year at the Art

Institute of Philadelphia. I was there for a year and (our

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I miMiths studying itommei'c ia I and .idvert is iivj art; and betoro

7 that time, I just took various coDeqe courses in art sinct?

i hii;h s<:l\ool.

4 Q Any post-secondary education beyond that?

5 A Not complete coileije.

6 Q What were your dates ot attendance at the

7 Philadelphia ArL Institute?

8 A October 1, 198S, to fieptember of 1986.

9 Q Did you obtain a degree?

10 A Yes.

11 Q What was that degree?

12 A Commercial art technician degree.

13 Q I am going to switch now to your employment wii.h

14 the Channel 1 organization, c:-h-a-n-n-e- 1-1 ; when were you

15 hired by Mr. Channell?

16 A Well, I wasn't hired by Mr. Channell. I was hired

17 by Mr. McMahon, Steve McMahon, who works Tor Mr. channell as

18 a CPA. I started with the Channell Corporation in January,

19 the end of January of '86.

20 Q Who was your actual employer?

21 A Steve McMahon was my actual employer.
?.?. Q Krom whom did you receive paychecks?

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1 A Through NEPL.

2 Q NEPI, stands for?

J A The Nal.ioi)al Endowment for the I'reserva t ion ol:

4 Liberty.

b Q How long were you employed with the NaticinaJ

6 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty?

7 A Kiom November 1986.

8 Q What position were you employed?

9 At I was assistant bookkeeper. I was sort of Steve

10 McMahon'3 ri<jht-hand nan. He needed someone to help him with

11 the books, tfie pay books and the ledgers, and f undrai .^ii ng

12 information.

13 Q How did you firid out about the job opening?

14 A He called me when I lived in Philadelphia. We
lb spoke over the phone. I didn't have any job lined up on

16 graduation of school, and he mentioned to me he mi'jht have a

17 job opening with Spitz. I thought about it and called him

18 back and told him I was interested. I just needed i job.

19 That is how I got involved.

20 Q Just to clarify for the reconl, could you state

21 the full name of "Spitz"?

2 2 A Carl R. Channel I.

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Q I tdko it you knew Mr. McMdhoii boCore?

A Yes, I fiave known Steve for about Tive years.

Q CouLd you describe your i es pons ib L I L t less at NKPI,:"

A To handle casfi disbursements, invoices, to draw
checks, to handle t'undraising cliecks and lo>; them, ind just
basic bookkeeping.

Q In the course of your duties, did you also balance
monthly bank statements?

A ' No, Steve was responsible tor that.

Q Did you handle account transfers with financial
i nsti tuti oris?

A Yes.

Q Did you handle the payroll?

A Yes. Steve and 1 did that together, but I did
payrol 1 checks .

Q You mentioned that you logged in contributions?

A Right.

Q Did you also deposit receipts or contributions?

A Yes.

Q Into various bank accounts?

A Into Palmer National Hank.

() Did you pay bills on behalf of NKPL?

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I A Yes.

?. , Q How do you know Mr . McMdhon?

3 A I have known Mr. McMdhon since he lived in

4 HaJtimciro before he moved to Washington. I met him through a

5 circle of my Criends.

6 C> Were there other people with whom you worked

7 closely at NEeL?

8 A Well, Steve was the closest person 1 worked with,

9 except' Cor like Jane McLaughlin, we were re.il i;ood friends,

10 and Angel a -Davi s , who is Spitz's secretary, we were all very

11 close friends .

12 Q Do you maintain contact witfi Mr. McMahon?

13 A No, no.

14 Q When did that contact break?

15 A Well, actually, it broke after I had left Spitz's

16 place of employment. After I left there, I was busy looking

17 for other employment, and since tlie newspaper article popped

18 up, since the newspaper article I saw came to print, X was

19 really angered.

20 Q Which newspaper article aiR.you referring to?

21 A That was the Sun Paper. I think it r.in March LS.

22 Q In between the time '.that ydu terminated employment

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I with the Chdnnell -jioups and this March lb newspaper .iiticLt?,

? had you kept in contact with Mr. McMrthoi. during that period?

3 A No, no.

4 Q Had you kept in contact with Ms. McLaughlin sxur.e

5 the time you terminated?

6 A No.

7 Q What about fn<jeU Davis?

8 A No.

9 . Q Is there anyone with whoa you were employed at

10 NP.PL that you have le.ained in contact since your teraination

11 at NKPL?

12 A No, sir. ......

13 Q What was the reason Cor your termination?

14 ^ There was a change in their management system.

15 They wanted to hire a CPA with a degree, and I wasn't a

16 registered CPA. I was just someone to help balance thrt

17 books. That was the reason for the letter I showed you.

18 MR. KAPLAN: For the record, the lettor to whir.h

19 Mr. Meo just referred is the letter that he produced in

20 response to the Senate and House subpoenas. It is a June ?. ,

21 1986 letter, purportedly from Stephen M. McMahon to Mi. Mfc.

22 we might as well have that marked as noposition KxhibiU I.

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1 • ; , (Oepo;iition Exhibit I iden t i t iiid . )

2 BY MR. KAPLAN:

3 Q Mr. Meo, you siiahed a bil. eaiiier Ll\dt-. you

4 terminated empJoyment with Mr. ChanneJJ'r organization in

5 September? ,.,,

6 A Yes.

7 Q This letter, which purports to be a Jetter of

8 thanks and recommendation, essentially, Erom Mr. McMahon, is

9 dated, as I stated a moment earlier, June 2, 1986.

10 A Yes.

11 Q Can you just expJain for us what prompted this

12 letter.'

13 A Right.

''i4'^"' ■ Q And how, the time gap between the date of this

15 letter and your termination?

16 , - A Steve wrote the letter in my presence at his

17 home. After that time, until September, he told me I could

18 stay on until 1 found other employment. So that was the time

19 <jap. I waa tryincj to gain other employment. They were

20 looking for a replacement in between that gap.

21 •' Q Now, I also believe that you testified a little

22 earlier that you attended school fiom October 19flS until

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1 September 1986.

2 A Or wds it '81. I think it wds '84, yes.

J Q Were you employed with NEPL ^t the same time you

1 were in dttendance at school?

5 A No. I had moved back to Philadelphia in the

6 beginning of January and started with them at tfie end o£ the

7 month . - . ^. . • ■. . v

8 Q So then I take it that that school preceded your

9 employment with NEPL?

10 A Right.

11 Q And that you concluded your studies prior tci youi

12 employment with NEPL?

13 A Well, I had gone to school first and then jc>incd

14 NKPL. " " ■'* ■ - ■■ ■ ■ - .

15 Q You mentioned that Mr. McMahon wrote this letter

16 while he was at home. Did he commonly keep National

17 Endowment, for the Preservation of Liberty stationery at his

18 home?

19 A I believe so.

20 Q How many bank accounts did NEPL have, to your
?.l knowledge?

22 A I believe there were either 12 or 13 accounts.

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1 Q tn whicli tixdnciai ins t i t-.ut ions were those

2 dccoiints mai ritdi ned?

3' A The majority o£ them were at PaJnier, and I think

4 one or two oC them were at Rig(;s National Bank.

■5 C! fJjd NKPL maintain any accounts at K . K . HiittonV

6 A Yes. We had an E.F. Hutton — I believe it was

7 Money Manager, some kind of account with them, and a lot ot

B times Cunds were wired Crom E.F. Hutton into Palmer or Palmer

9 accounts.

10 Q Was the K.F. Mutton account in Washington, d'.C.I

11 A Yes, Crom my knowledge, yus.

12 Q What would be the reason tor having to wire funds

13 Crom the K.F. Hutton account into a Palm«r National il.ink

14 account also in the same city?

15 A IC Cunds were low in our Palmer account, we would

16 call E.F. Hutton and find out stock information and how much

17 the stock would be worth, and they would take care ot wiring

18 money to cover, like, our expenses, that would be paid out ot

19 our Palmer account. They would make deposits into tho Palmor
?.0 bank to cover our checks. ,

21 Q When you say "the Palmer ac<;ount," is there one

2?. particular account to whic^i you are referring?

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A Primarily iL was the .jenerai NUPL .iocouiit that we

would pay bills out oC .

Q Do you recall the account number or any special

desi'iiiation Cor that account?

A No, I don't.

Q How was that account designated on the internal
accounting records or ledger sheets ot the organization?

A It was just the National Endowment for the
Preservation of Liberty. That was it, the general account.

Q • You described earlier that part of your
responsibilities was making deposits into various bank
account s ?

A Right, right.

Q Can you describe how deposits were handled?
A Yes. When we got fundraising money, the
fundraisers would receive from their contributors, the checks
were given to me and my superior, either Oan Conrad or our
treasurer. Cliff Smith, would either tell me what account
these checks were for, what project they were for, and wc had
different deposit tickets for each account, and they wt-re
separated into .U liferent deposits. That's how that w.is

handl ed .

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1 Q You meiiLionrtd earlier that Slieve McMalion was youf

2 priiicipa) supervisor at NEPL.
-3 A Ricjht.

4 Q Did you also respond to directions or instructions

5 <;iven by Mr. Conrad?

6 A^ . Yes, yes.

7 Q Ml. Smith aa well?

8 A Yes .

9 Q What kinds of instructions wouJd Mr. Conrad or

10 Mr. Smith normally ';ive you?

11 A Usually -- well, Uan Conrad was the guy, he would

12 run the ship when Spitz wasn't in the oEfice. This was ovur

13 on Capitol Hill in our old office. I took instructions from

14 Dan, who was my immediate supervisor, spe<:ially when Steve

15 wasn't in the office, I spoke to Dan. Jf I had any problems

16 I would go to Dan, and if he waan't available I would i;o to

17 Steve. I would call him via phone to his home.

18 Q Did you have occasion to deal directly with

19 Mr. Channell himself?

20 A No, not that much. 1 think the whole Lime I was

21 there, I only spok« t(j Spitz either two or three times.

22 Q So, correct me i f 1 am wiony, contributions would

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1 come in pursuaiiL to tundi'aisurs?

2 A Right. *, •?^ ■ j
J Q Reijues ts ? ; '
1 A Night. ;• •,

5 Q And then NEPI. would receive the contributions?

6 A Yes .

7 ii Either Mr. Conrad or Mr. Saith wouJd designate to
fl which accounts those contributions were to be deposited?

9 , A Yes, aJso the fundraisers would too. They would

10 tell me what checks are to be filtered into wh.it account.

11 Q Which fundraisers are you referring to?

12 A To Jane Mcl.auyhlin and Chris Littledale.

13 Q Is it your understanding that the f undraisei .«! made

14 their own determinations as to which accounts contributions

15 would be tunneled into?

16 A I think that was up to Spitz and Dan. t really

17 think that was up to them.

18 Q Is it fair to say then that it's your

19 understanding that the ultimate destination of any

20 contribution was decided by Mr. Channell or Mr. Coniad?

21 A I am sure, I am almost sure.

22 Q rjid Mr. McMahon ever decido the destination or

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1 deposit ot Any particular «:onLribution ?

2 A If: we had questiotis about what account a check

3 should be placed into, he would take it up with either Dm or

4 Spitz. My job was just to aake deposits into those

5 accounts .

6 Q In your experience at NEPL, were all deposits

7 attributable to contributions?

g A Maybe once or twice we would get refunds fro« a

9 conpany Cor overpayment or soaething like that. But the

10 majority ot the deposits were contributions.

H Q To your knowledge, did you handle all deposits?

'12 A The majority of them, yes.

13 Q When you say the majority of them, are there ;?omrt

14 that you might not have handled?

15 A Hell, I am really not sure about this, but I am

16 sure maybe once in a while Steve would make a deposit or

17 CliCC would make a deposit at the bank. Hut I would say

18 maybe 95 percent of the time, I would go and make the

19 deposits at Palmer.

poll Q oid you ever see the monthly statements for Ihe-sc

21 checking accounts?
yp A X saw the monthly statements, but I didn't balance

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1 th«m, .13 I saL<i edriier.

2 C) So i t is possible that there were deposits th^t
^ wete made tliat you wouldn't have known about?

4 A Piobably, yes.

5 U Other than wire transCers trom the K . f . (luti.on

6 accounts into the Palmer National Bank accounts, were thure

7 any other wire transfers into the Palmer National Hank

8 accounts of which you are aware?

9 . \ Not from the outside. There were transfers made

10 within the Palmer accounts from account to account through

11 the bank.

I?. Q Who would direct that those transfers be mdde?

ll \ Either Steve or myself.

14 Q What would instigate a wire tiansfer being ni<tde

15 from one internal account to another intern-il account?

16 A Lack of funds in an account that we had to --if

17 we h«d written a check on an account, that wouldn't have --

18 the funds wouldn't have covered, then we would make the

19 transfer from account to account.

20 Q Did you have authority to make those transfers?

21 A Yes. A letter, I believe, was sent to P.ilmer Hank
2^ from Oan Conrad giving me the authoiity lo do so.

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1 Q Did yi)u have to check with someone before you maiie

2 those transfers?

3 A No, X didn't really have to teJ J unyone. UsuaJly,

4 i€ there was a transfer to be made, Angela would tell me when

5 I got to work. Every once in a whiJe Dan wouJd come in and
b tell me we need a transfer or just make a transfer. That's

7 how that was handled.

8 Q And then the ones that you figured on your own,

9 when you made the transfer, would you report t<5 someone after
10 the fact that you had made that transfei?

It A It was logged in the book, and I would have -i

12 receipt from the bank backing up the transfer, arid fiteve

13 would be notified.

14 Q Uhat would constitute being low in an account?

15 A Proa paying invoices and bills. That was the bit;

16 reason. He had a lot of bills that we paid every month.

17 Q Uhat kinds of bills were the big ticket items?

18 A I think the biggest would be consultation fees

19 from different companies.

20 Q Can you describe some of those consul tat iori fe:es

21 and to which coapanies? '

22 A We had a lot of -- oh, okay. One monthly bill was

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Erom IBC. Another one was Crom Curt Herdqe & fcssocidtfts, who
were attorneys for NEPI,. They used to prepare reports overy
month tor each account, and utility bills and so Corth.

Q Would you just describt; for the record what ( HC

stands tor?

H Internationa] Business Communications.

Q What kind of monthly Eees would qo to
International Husiness Communications?
.» fc.u h • I can't .Jive you i definite ballpark fitjure, but
it had to be at least over $1000 a month.

(j Why were there 12 or 13 different accounts in the
Palmer National Hank?

h Each account stood for a project, to my

knowledge. We had the National Endowment for Preservation of
Liberty general accounts, the t>«>Kiit accounts, each account
was in this case named for, I believe, a contributor. Then
we had an ATfcC SEF account, ATAC KED state election fund and
federal election fund.

Q What is ATAC, for the record?

A 1 think it was a project. I wasn't really sure-

ATAC was a project. /'— --^•W»

Q Could that have stood for the Antiter r or ism^of

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1 America acc<3unt?

2 A Yes. We had ACT account, American Conservative

3 Trust, stdto election Cund and federal election fund account,

4 and a Sentinel account, and 1 think I an leaving out <i few

5 accounts, but I couldn't remember all 13.

6 Q So X take it for the most part, there were

7 accounts for each o£ the diCCerent Channell organizations?

8 . A Right.

9 U Is it fair to say that for the National Endowment

10 for the Preservation of Liberty, there was more than one

11 account? " ' .- ' . _- , ^^

12 A Right.

13 Q Hhat was the Riggs account? You referred to the

14 Riggs National Bank account earlier?

15 A Spitz had an account called the Channell

16 Corporation account with Riggs, and money in it was like

17 ' $39. It never grew. It was just collecting dust in a

18 drawer. ■: . . •

19 Q Has there any activity in that account during your

20 tenure at the National Bndowaent Cor the Preservation of

21 Liberty?

2?. A When I started in January, until the time T l*;ft.

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1 I I'.hink one or two checks were writLeii out o£ it. I don't

2 know what the checks were, but we had iusued a couple oC

3 checks out of that account.

4 Q How were checks or disbursements from the accounts

5 handled.'

6 A Paying invoices?

7 Q Yes.

8 ^ A The invoices I would receive every month. I would

9 hand 'them over to Dan. He would look over the invoices. I

10 would draw checks out for each invoice, and he would sign on

11 the checks, and I would mail them and keep a copy oC the

12 invoice for our records.

13 Q Were checks or disbursements always made pursuant
M to an invoice?

^5^ A Usually, usually.

16, _ , Q Were there any checks or disbursements to payees

17 that you didn't recognize?
IB A Every once in a while, I would get an invoics tov

19 something that was foreign, to my knowledge, and I wouJd (lAtid

20 that over to Dan tor his i ns t i-u<:t Ions .

21 Q Was it a payment to a foreign source or a source

22 of which you were not previously aware?

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1 A Ricjhl: .

2 ft What is it?

3 A Just an invoiCB £roai a company here in

4 Washinyton.

5 (2 Were there any wire transfers froa the Palmer

6 National Bank or E.F. Hutton account other than to othet

7 Channel 1 -rel ated accounts?

a A Kvery once in a while a contributor would make a

9 wire jnto one of our accounts. He are talking naybe a large

10 sum of money from a company that a contributor would own.

11 That's to my knowledge.

12 Q. Do you recall any of the specific wires?

13 A I can't remember the names of the company, but

M there were maybe three or four in the time that I worked for

15 Spitz that we got — the bank would call me, a girl by the

16 name of Kathleen that worked in the wire transfer department

17 would call me and let me know that there was a wire, we will
IB receive into a certain account, and I would get a receipt

19 from the bank the next day. '•

20 Q Do you remember Kathleen's last name?

21 A No, I don't.

22 Q She was at Palmer National Bank?

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A Yes.

Q Did Mr. c:hdnnel] have <i special bariking account?

A Other than his Channell CotpoiM Lion account wiih
Kigqs, I am. really not suie it we had a personal account.

Q Was an account maintained tor something th.it was
referred to as the Toys project?

. . K Yes. That name was also directrtd i-o the NEPL

number 2 account or the patent account.
-Q What was the Toys project?

A .The Toys project, from what I have been told, was
tot' (juns and ammunition.

Q Who told you that?

K Steve McMahon made a statement to in« when I Citrst

started in January, and later on, I believe it was in the
early or late sprim; or early summer, by Chris Littledalc.

Q Did Mr. McMahon volunteer that intormation to you?

A Well, we were going over the accounts when r. first
started, and he told me that this number 2 account, which is
also the j^SiSriH't .iccount, is als<J for Toys, Toys account, 3"-
which stands for gims and ammunition.

Q Did he desc;ribe guns and ammunition for whom?

A That was it. That was left at that. That's all

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he said. i

Q Had you «ver come to an under standi nc, yourself .s \

,., ,o. -ho. the .un. and a.«unition were to be pu..has.d7

A NO.

Q no you re«e.be, -hen Mr. Littledale spok« -ith you

^bout this gytfr^'l eor the Toy. project?

A Right. AS 1 said earlier, in the 5pan of tin,e,

.aybe the early or late sprin. or su..er, Chri. -ould sit U

.y des., before I would .et to worK at 10:00. 1 Cound so.e |

papers belon.in. to hi. and a defense .a.a.ine with pictures ,

, ^- Janice It -as Uke a c.atnU.g or
of a«.unition, airplanes, tanks. Jt -as .

defense .agazine. I don't re.e.ber the na.e.

But I ca.e into -ork and I looked at it. After

looking at the .agazine, Chris ca.e into our office, -hu:h .t

that ti.e -a, a kitchen, believe it or not, and I handed hi^

" .agazine. I can't re.e.ber the state.ent that I n,.de, t,ut h.
answered .e - he replied, "thafs -hat -o a.e ra.s.ng .on.y

••^ 7 r-an't remember what I
for," in reference to this magazine. 1 can t re

said to hi. though.

Q were you told -hy the project -as referred to as

the Toys project

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/v I doii' L know why-

0 r,id you discuss the designation of the Toys

project wil.h anyone else?
A NO.
Q Anyone else at the National F.ndowment for t ho

Preservation oC Liberty?
A NO.
Q Did you ever hear anyone else discuss any project

refeireii to as Toys?

A The only ti-e the -ord "Toys" was biouqht up Is
the instance -hen Jane Mcf.aa.jhlin .,ave «e a ch«.:Vc to he
deposited into the Toys account, and Chris Littleda.e aUo
had a check Cor the same account, and that was it.

Q «ho else in the oftice would be familiar with the
Toys designation Eor that project?

A T am sure all the fundraisers would be.
Q By "all the fundraisers," can you give us . list?
A There were a few people that were new when ^
left. But the primary people, Jane McLaughlin, Chr.s
Uttledale, Clitt Smith, was also a fundraiser, but he was
.,.o a treasurer. X am sure the fundraisers, aU oH .he.

would know, plus my supe

riors, Dan, and, of course. Spit/

ray suk>ti*>'»-, — ■

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Q When you had i.l\is discu:5sion with Mr. Li 1 1. ledd Ic ,
you mentioned that he mitde a. re/erence to this ffl<tgav!in«.

A Right.

Q That you had found on your desk? »

\ Right. ." e

Q He said, "that's what we are raising money for";
is that correct? ,, . • . , •

A Yes.

()' Could you again describe which magazine he was
reEerring to?

A It was some kind of magazine called "defense"
something. r remember the word "defense." The magazine
showed you pictures of tanks, warfaie, ammunition.

Q Had you flipped through the magaxine so you knew
what kinds of pictures were in it? • /

A Yes, I looked through it. I looked through the
whole magazine.

Q Just a point of clarification, it was your
understanding th.it what Mr. Littledale was telling you, I
take it, is that ycui weren't raising funds to purchase a
subscription to the magazine? ' '

A No, sir. Tfiis -- 1 knew at that time that the

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I in(i(;dzine had to ii«a I with the Tuys account.

? Q So, i i; it tair tci say then that ycm under s tJJSi''*''

3 W»** Mr. LitLlftfldlo to be tellin<; you that NEei, was laiiinc;

4 funds to purchase iha products that were shown in the
b maijdzine ?

6 A Maybe not necessarily in that magazine, but T

7 think his remark was, in general, Eor any kind oc ammunition

8 or wartare.

9 () Beyond what you have told us already, do you know

10 how moniesi were designated to the Toys project or to be

11 depo.sited into an account dedicated to the Toys pto;iect?

12 \ ■ Yes. Fundraisers would let me know what ac^count

13 checks were for. Usually, if they were involved with a
M project, we would receive all of the monies at one time.

15 Q What kinds of -- what amounts of money were

16 designated for the Toys project?

17 A All kinds.

18 Q Can you give us a ballpark figure over time?

19 A That's really difficult for me to do. t do know

20 that, if this will help you, if you have heard the name ciC

21 Kllen (jarwoi^d, a check from her, a person.ii check would come

22 in from her, Harbara Newington was ariothei check that was

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real t'dmilidr with me.

'■ Q Ts it your uiidrr stand i ng that the cont ri tiut ions
tiotn Mrs. Garwood ^nd Mrs. Newjmjtoii were design.ited for use
in t^^e Toys project?

A T remember their checks going into that account.
Another person who gave his money was Mr. Claggett, if! i.hat
name rings a bell with you.
Q Yes .

His check would also go in the Toys accounts.

By Toys accouDt, you are referring to which

Q
account?

A
account. They all mejn the same thing

The paVoiit number 2 account or tfie NEPL nuinbei ? ■'•'

U Did any money go into the NETI, number 2 account or

the pataht number 2 account which was not spent Cor the Toys i»^

1
project? I

A Usually, again, as I mentioned before, if funds ;

I
were running low in that account, we wouiil make a tianstoi or

funds from another accovint to cover checks writtefi into that

book .

Q Is it fair to say that everything that went into

that account was used tor the Toys project, to your

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1 knowLedije?

7. A From ccintri butoi s ' s checks, yes.

.5 Q And how was money spenL or disbursed Crom that

1 account?

5 A Usually, i f we ran low in our general NKPL

b account, then t would be advised, probably by Dan, he really

7 gave ne a Jot o£ instructions about hank books. He wouJd

8 just come to me and say, well, just write oliecks out ot an

9 accoitiit that we have money in to cover our invoices. So, you

10 know, since we had so much money in the T(}ys account, I would

11 issue checks out ot that account to pay invoices.

12 Q After money went into this Toys account, i.o whom

13 were checks primarily written, and in particular?

M A Just reijular businesses that we dealt with.

15 Q Now, I may not be making myself very clear. A;: r

16 understand it, we have got a lot o£ money ci}ming rrom

17 contributions that's being designated for the Toys project

18 and deposited into a particular account at the Palmer

19 National Bank.

20 A Right.

7\ Q Is that correct?

22 A Yes.

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1 Q You i.estiEieii a couple minutes e.irlier that It's

2 your understanding that the Toys project referred to funds

J that weie teceived th.iL were to be used tur the purchase of

4 guns and dmmuni ti on .

5 .. A Right.

6 Q What I am trying to understand is once the money

7 went int<j the account designated for l:he Toys project, where

8 did that money go to carry out the purpose of purchasing guns

9 and ammunition?

10 A Sir, I have no idea, but I do remember an instance

11 that a chei;k was written out of the Toys account made payable

12 to IRC for !?1,2S0,000. ■'

13 Q Do you recall when that check waa written?

14 A It wrts sometime in May. I am not sure of the

15 date, but it was sometime in May, an<i the order was given to

16 me by Dan Conrad. It was like, very hurried, came in to mi',

17 we need this check, if you have to make a transfer from K.L".

18 Hutton, whatever, do it, because we need the check right

19 away. I remember making the check out. I typed it ami thi;n

20 handed him the check, and thrit was that. '■'

21 Q Were there funds in the account to cover the

22 check?

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r ; t. ,1 r A I had l-o mdke a LraiKstor.

'2 r* Q Where did the transfer ccitne from?

'3' "- A t believe the LransFor came from E.F. HuLton.

4 • y Is it fdir Ici say that most of the moticy thdt was

5 dishuiseii or spent trom the account designated Coi- the Toys

6 project went to I BC during your tenure at NKPL?

7 A Well, usually, IBC was paid out of our general

8 account. That instance, that was the only time I can recall

9 a check' being drawn out of the Toys account Cor IBC.

10 Q When this !»1,2?)0,000 check was written, did •

11 Mr. Conrad say anything Lo you about the purpose oE the
I?. check?

U A No. ■ .

lA' ^ Q Did you ask him --

15 A No.

16 Q -- about the purpose of the check?

17 A No.

18 Q Was the anount of the check out of line with other

19 checks that you had written during ycjur time at NF.Pt.?

?0 A It was a great deal of money. After he tiad taken

21 the check, he left on vacation. He was in San Franc isi-o Cor

22 a week. I had no way ot getting in contact with him. Stt:ve

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1 knew dbouL the check also, ami t think iSl.eve wanteil y.o ilo .1

2 to]. low-up pay stub to support what i nforind ti on -- what was

3 the check for. You know, we would try 1.0 i;ol. i nliorm* t ion on
A checks that were written, what was it lor; and T leally don't

5 think we got the inCorma tion . I know Steve wanted to try to

6 cfieck up on it, but I don't know i C he got the information 0/

7 not.

8 Q What kind of information would Steve have wanted

9 to get.? "" " ^•

16 ''" A ProbabJy a statement Ci om Dan about the purpose o£

11 the check, and he would usually — Steve would usually jot

12 down things on the check stub of what the check was for, and

13 Steve would know what checks were for.

14 Q To clarify the record, when we refer to fit eve, we

15 are talking about Mr. MoMahon?

16 A Mr. McMahon, right.

17 Q Did you discuss the $1.25 million check with

18 Mr. McMahon?

19 ' A No. . ...

20 ~' Q Do you know if Mr. McMahon ever discussed it wilh

21 Mr. Conrad?

22 A I am really not sure.

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ill Q Was Lhe itirorma t ic>n th<»L Mr. M(!Mahon wantPdl l.u gr!i

7. about tht" check ever received from Mc . Conrad?

3 A I don't know that either, sir.

4 Q During your time at NKPL, did you have any

5 contacts with Lieutenant Colonel Olivet' North?

6 A No, six

7 Q Were you aware ot contacts that others in the

8 Channell orcjaniza tion micjht have had with Colonel North?

9 , A Not to my knowJedge.

10 . Q . Did anyone around the cjfEice ever f»»f(»r to Colonel

11 North?

U A No, air.

13 Q Are you aware of any code names that were used to

11 leter to Colonel North?

15 A No.

16 Q Did you have any contacts with any other White

17 House or National Security Council personnel duriny your

18 time?

19 A No.

20 Q What about others in the C>iarineJ J oi qani ^at i ori?
?.l A As Ear as employees?

22 Q Yes.

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1 A Well, I had irontacL with the Lumlra isurs , but jiia-i.

2 on, yoii know, a friendly basis. That was it.

.3 ' Q r am sorry, I meant what about other peopli> in the

4 Channel 1 organization having contact with any White House

5 personnel or National Security Council personnel, to ycjur

6 knowledge.

7 A To my knowledge, Spitz spoke to President Reagan

8 at one time. They were on the phone in the otCii:e near

9 Angelii's desk. Maybe Ih or 20 Minutes they were on the

10 phone, and Spitz did not speak at the time.

11 Q Do you recall when that was?

12 A It was in our old oEfice. t think that was

13 probably early spring. '

14 Q How did you know that Mr. Channell was speaking

15 with the president?

16 A Because I heard people going, shhh. President

17 Reagan is on the phone.

18 Q Do you know anything abovit the substance ot that

19 conversation?

20 A No, I don't.

21 Q Did anyone in the organization evei talk about the

22 conversation after it took place?

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1 A No, sir.

2 C! Who, if you can recall, was the person th.it told

3 yoii that Prosident Reac;.!!) was on the phone?

4 A I heaid a couple of fundraisers near Angela's

5 desk. We wei'o all concentrated upstairs at tho time. t

6 think Jane had whispered to somebody else, and I overhertrd

7 Jane say "it's Pre.sident Reaijan."

8 Q How would Jane -- by Jane, we are referring to

9 Jane Mct,au(jh I inV

10 A Right.

11 Q How would Jane have known that the president was

12 on the phone?

13 A I really don't know. Maybe she overheard iipitz or
M maybe Spitz told them that the president was going to call.

15 X am really not sure.

16 Q Did you have any contacts with a Richard Miller

17 - during your time?

18 A I knew Richard Miller worked for IBC. A couple of

19 times I had tcj do a littl«* messenger errand to IBC with -in
^0 envelope. The contents of the envelope are a mystc^ry to me,
21 but I remember Mr. Miller coming down the steps and i. -iking
2.7 the envelope I rom the receptionist at IRC. That's it. On

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I seveial occasions, Mr. Miller would come to our ()fr;ice to

7 meet with Spitz or Dan, ^ut that's all I know.
\ Q Aijain, I hate to ket*p doing this, but by Spii.z or

1 Dan, we are talking about Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad?

5 \ Right.

6 Q Did you have ariy contacts with a Frances or Frank

7 Gomez during your time at NEPL?

8 A No, sir. '

9 Q Do you know if any other people in the Channell

10 organised contacts with Mr. Gomez?

11 A Not to my knowledge. That name doesn't ring a '

12 bell with me.

13 y Did you have any contacts with a David Fischer

14 during your time at NEPL?

15 A For some reason that name rings a beJl, but T

16 can't place who he, is with or who he works Cor. I remember

17 the name. It's probably maybe an invoice that I have seen

18 with his name on it, <5r whatever. It could be anything.

19 Q Do you recall whether Mr. Fischer was a consultant

20 to NEPL during y<3ur time with the organization?

21 A It couJd be possible. Maybe that's why T

22 recognize the name.

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\ Q It you will aive me dboiii. a moment, I u^nt to

2 consult with my colleagues as to whether I have any luxther

3 ijuesLions, and then Mr. Fryman may have some tollow-up
1 questions.

5 (Recess.)

6 MR. KAFLAN: If we could go back on the record.

7 BY MR. KAPLAN:

fl Q I have a few more questions. May I have the

9 reporter mark as Deposition exhibit Nii«ber 2 what purports to

10 be a copy of a bank statement for the National Endowment for

11 the Preservation of Liberty special account number 2. The

12 statement is dated May 31, 1986.

Ij (Deposition Kxhibit 2 identified.)

11 BY MR. KAPLAN:

15 Q I am going to show you, Mr. Meo, a copy ot that

16 statement. As 1 read this statement, down toward the bottom,

17 • there is a check dated May 7, 1986, in the amount of

18 $1,250,000.

19 A Yes.

20 Q Is that the check to which you referred in your

21 testimony earlier?

22 A Yes, sir.

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Q Is Lhis accouni;, by <l«s iijnd t ion and by account

number, which is in the upper rjght-hiand corner tif the
exhibit, tha .iccoiinU to which you were rel:errin<j earlier ^s
the account dedicated to the Toys project?

A Yes , sir.

Q Is there any question in your wind about that?

A No.

Q The writing in the middle of the page, next to the
niscipllaneous credit designations, which indicates "E.F.
Hutton" atid then has some ditto marks underneath.

A Right.

Q Is that your handwriting?

A No, sir.

Q Do you recognize that handwriting?

A It would probably be Steve's.

Q Did you write eveiy check that was written ddi i rig
your ti«e at NEPL out of the NEPL accounts?

A Primarily, yes.

Q Here there any checks written either ot which yciu
were unaware or written by other people?

A Usually, every once in a while, we would come in,
and sometimes checks would be missing from our gerif^ral

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1 account. I don't remembef any checks beiny inissiny from Uhe

2 nurabei 2 account uitfi no exp] aridt i on on the stub, and then ii

3 would be Like pullincj teeth to try to (jet some intorm.i i, lom ,

4 where the check went, what it was Cor, how much it was for.

5 They will just leave the stub completely blank.

6 Q Did you keep a running balance of the accc>untV

7 A Yes.

8 Q How would you keep a running balance if there were

9 cliecks missing, the amount of which the payee -- to which you
10 are unaware?

)1 A Al 1 of our balances, everything was computed on

12 t.he computer screen. We had a system called the Lotus I, ?. ,

13 3 accounting package. Usually, if 1 couldn't get the

14 information to back up a check that would be missin>;, Stcvo

15 would just rajs^j^ell about it. So we would get the

16 intcjrmatle

17 Q Here there times when you did get information

18 about missing checks?

19 A Once in a while, yes. Sometimes Angela would need

20 a check for, maybe, a messenger or something. She w<juld jusi.

21 go and fill out the check, Dan would sign it and h.ind it over

22 to somebody, messenger or something like that, and she w(}uLa

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1 jot down l".he amount so I could enter it in the book.

2 Q Was there ever a time dt which you did not receive
■J information about a particular missing check?

4 A No, and if T didn't get information, I would go tti

5 Steve and leave that up to him. ■■ "

6 Q Again, by Steve, you are talking about

7 Mr. McMahon?

8 A Mr. McMahon.

9 Q Did Mr. McMahon always get inPomation about
10 missing checks?

U A Usually.

i9. Q Is there a particular time ox instance that you

13 can recall th.iL adequate information wasn't received by

M either you or Mr. McMahon about a particular missing check?

15 A I wouldn't be able to tell you.

16 Q Who had physical custody of the checkbooks during

17 your time at NEPL? ''

18 A Spitz, Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad, and Mr. Smith --

19 Chris -- Cliff Smith, I am sorry, our treasurer.

20 Q Where were the checkbooks actually kept?

21 A In our office.

22 Q Uhen you say our office, to whose office are you

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1 referring?

'2' • ■ A Steve's office. Mi. McMdhon ' s office, my desk.
■ 3 ' Q What kinds of records were kept, financiaL records

<! were kept in the organization? -

5 \ Steve kept a lot of tax inf orin.i tion on hand. C

6 beJieve they were taxes that pertained to Mr. Channel 1. ws'

7 kept a file on all of owr invoices and businesses that wo

8 dealt with. And our bank information there at the office.
9" - . Q Were accounting ledgers kept there?

10 A Yes. Usually, for the most part, sometimes Steve.

11 would have them in his -- at his home.

12 Q Why would Steve keep accounting ledgers at his

13 home?

H A I really don't know. Maybe to do .some woik in tfie

15 ledgers.

16 Q Was Mr. McMahon employed full-time by NKPL?

17 A Yes, but he usually didn't come to the office.

18 When we were in our old office on Capitol Hill, he would come

19 to the office maybe three or four times a month to stop in

20 and do some work. After we made the move to Pennsylvania

21 Avenue, he was in the office every day. '.>o was '.jpit:?.

22 Q What was Mr. McMahon doing, to your knowledge.

r -3.

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1 durinij the time that he wasn't in the Chaniiell offices?

2 A He had other clients tfiat he prepared taxes for.

3 Q Did he give up those other clients when the
\\ organisation made its move to Pennsylvania Avc-nue?

5 A Not t<3 my kn<5wLf:dge, because afi:er we made the

6 move to Pennsylvania Avenue, one of his clients came to our

7 offices to discuss taxes with him.

8 MR. KAPLAN: X don't have any other questions.

9 Mr. Fryman may ha>.e some ad<litional questions. I want to

10 thank you for your patience and your cooperation. You have

11 been very helpful, and I appreciate it.

12 KXAMINATION

13 BY MR. FRYMAN:

14 Q Mr. Meo, I just have a few questions. First,

15 however, I want to note for the record that prior to the

16 deposition I gave you a copy of a subpoena of the House of

17 Representatives which is dated March 30, 1987, and has been

18 signed by the Chairman of the House Select Committee, Lee

19 Hamilton. I explained to you that the seal of the Clerk of

20 the House has not yet been affixed to the original subpoc-na,

21 that that is in the process of being done, and you have

22 agreed to accept the copy that I have presented to you in

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lieu oC the originai subpoena with the seal; is thdt

'/ correct?

J ^ Riijht, yes.

4 Q Also, just for the record, I want to stater thtit

4 prior to the ooramencemen t ot the deposition, t gave you a

6 copy of the RuJes of the House SeJect Committee.

7 A Yes .

8 Q And also a copy of the House Resolution Number 12

9 establishing the House Select Committee.

10 A Hight.

11 Q Is that correct?
I?. A Yes.

13 Q Now, just d few clarifying questions. You

14 testified that you were employed by NEPL from January to

15 September, 1986V

16 \ Yes, sir.

17 - Q Then you have produced a letter from Mr . McMahon

18 dated June, 1986?

19 A Yes, sir.

20 Q Which refers to the quality of your work with the

21 organization and other matters. lietwecn June of 1986 ^ind

22 September of 1986, were you working on a reguJar basis in t tu*

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A Yes, sir.

() You were in the process o£ looking (or another job

dt that time?

A Yes, sir.

Q Had you found another job by September 1986?

A Yes, sir.

Q What was that job?

A I worked tor Coluabia Publi:<hiny Company in
Coluabia, Maryland, for a short tiae, before going to Agora
in Baltiaore.

Q Did you move to Hashingtori in January 19B6?

A No, :ilr.

Q Hhen did you aove to Washington?

A I never moved to Washington. I commuted every dav
fro«

Q When was the last occasion that you spoke to an
eaployee oC the Channell organization?

A Before I left the organization.

Q That would be before or —

A In Septeaber, in Septeaber.

Q You have not spoken to anyone olse since St:pL«!mbei

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1 oC 19(36?

2 A No, sir .

3 Q Have you spoken with any attorney for Mr. Channel I

4 or his organisation?

h ' A No, sir . ■

6 Q Now, you mention you had known Mr. McMahon before

7 you accepted this job?

'8 A Yes, sir. '

9 Q Had you known Mr. Channel] before you accepted the

10 job?

U A No, sir.

12 Q Now, on the accounting records maintained by NKPL,

13 you had a checkbook which you maintained and drew checks on?
' ii A Yes .

15 ' Q There were stubs in that checkbook; is that

16 correct?

17 • A Yes, sir.

18' " Q As a general matter, you would complete the stubs

19 when you drew a check?

20 A Yes, sir.

21 Q What other record would there be of. a disbur scment

22 or a check w i tlulrawal?

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1 \ Well, betore we went lo Lhe compuLer, we kepi, d

2 spread sheet book of disbursements and check numbers for eacti
J account that Steve kept In his presence. I worked in the

4 book, before we weYit over to computer, and when we did gci to

5 computer, as I mentioned before, we went to the I.otus ;>ys i.t>m

6 and everything was done on screen.

7 Q When did you yo to computer?

8 A Sometime in the old office. I really couldn't

9 (jive you a date. I would say maybe February we went to

10 computer.

11 Q February of 1986?

12 A. Yes,

13 Q So the spread sheets were muintairied during your

14 period of employment for approximately one month?

15 A Maybe one month, month and a half. Hut Steve had

16 someone in his employ before I started that kept up these

17 books, and I don't know who that person was.

18 Q Now, on the computer system, what was l:ho

19 mechanism on the computer system for keeping a memory of the

20 transactions?

21 A Everything was done on disk, floppy disk.

22 Q What kind of computers were used?

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I A Oh, gosh. I hhiiik we used an IBM personal

7 computer.

3 Q Who indi ntained rontroJ of! t ^le disks?

4 h Dan had a bit} part to do with the compiitci

5 system. I think he was responsible for the ins t til 1 dt i on oT

6 compu teis . He had a really good knowledge of computers. He

7 kept disks.

8 Q He kept the disks?

9 A Yes. Sometimes Steve would keep the disks also.

10 He would have copies oE those disks in his home.

11 y Then for disbursements, I believe you testified

12 that you would keep the invoice for each disbursement.^

13 A Right.

14 ' Q How would they be maintained?

15 A We would make a Xerox of those invoices for oiir

16 files.

17 . Q Would they be maintained in a chronol oqica 1

18 fashion?

19 A Probably by alphabetical order, by company. Those

20 fil«s are at the office.

21 Q Now, you say you would make a copy. What would

22 happen to the original ia

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I A The ori(;inal would be sent with the check to the;

? company. For business.

.3 Q Now, apart from the check stubs ind the copies of-

4 invoices and the spread sheets for the initial petidd of-

5 1986, and the computer records maintained on the floppy

6 disks, what other financial records would have been

7 maintained in the NEPL organi^iati on?

8 A I think Steve would compile a list or a summary oE

9 activity on a monthly basis, tor Spitz. And, to ray

10 knowledge, that's all I know about any kind of statements cu-
ll anything else besides the computer and the spread sht^ets.

12 Q What information would be on this monthly list?

13 A It would be similar to a bank statement, how much

14 money wouid go out to businesses and how much money the

15 organization would receive fiom businesses. If we had

16 leCunda from businesses, money we were receiving from

17 contributors, so on and so forth for each account.

18 Q Would this statement identify the contributor?

19 A Yes.

20 Q Would it identify the recipient of a check diawn

21 on a NKPL account?

22 A Usually. Steve would use contributors' lirt namc'S

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1 on a summary 3he<>L for Spitz.

2 Q Dci you know how he made up these lists?

3 Alt was all done on computer.

4 Q Who made the inputs oL informaticm to the
•5 computer?

6 A Steve and myself:.

7 Q Anyone e Lse?

8 A Not to my knowledge.

9 Q Now, was the word "Toys" used in any of these

10 information inputs into the computer?

11 A Usually two words were used, "Toys" plus "account

I 2 numlier 2 . "

13 Q Were both of those phrases used for each

II transaction that related to that account?

15 A Yes, sir.

16 Q What was the reason for usimj both?

17 . A So we could identify what monies went into that

18 account when we loy<jed all of this on a computer screen.

19 Q Hut why was it necessary to use both phrases to

20 identify the monies?

21 A r really don't know. I really don't know.

p^j Q What other sm-ts ot information were inpui.te<i into

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I the computer?

7. A He had cmr payrol] i rif ormett i on on computer. What

1 else. I tliink, before I left, Steve was trying to work out

4 something like this Cor the bank statement on our computer.

5 So lie could go aliead and balance the bcjoks an<i 3<;e i£ the two

6 figures would match.

7 Q When you say "something like this," you are

8 reEeiring to Deposition Exhibit 2?

9 A Right. We had also, on the screen, a balance

10 sheet by accounts. tC checks were written on a day, they

11 would be entered in on the screen and the screen would

12 automatically tally a bank balance C(n- us, an<l the two

13 figures would have to match with the book. If there was an

14 error, we would have to go back and find the error. It was

15 just basic bookkeeping procedure.

16 Q In the check stubs for checks that were drawn, you

17 " would write a purpose for the check?

18 A Right.

19 Q Would that purpose be transferred also to the

20 computer?

?. 1 A Usually, yes.

7:X Q I believe you said there were copies uf the

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computer disks?

A Yes. Steve had (copies in his possession. He kept
copies at woi-k. He had a copy at work and a copy at his
home. Hfi had his own computer system at fiome also.

Q What was the total number of copies of i he disks,
as you understand it?

A I think it was only one copy that I have seen.

Q So the original disk plus one copy?

A Yes . '■

Q Is it your understanding that the copy was at
Mr. McMahon's home?

A Yes, sir.

Q And the original was maintained in the office?

A Right.

Q Who maintained custody of that again?

A It was just in our office, in a disk box.
MR. FRYMAN: I have no further questions,
Mr. Meo.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

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1 (Whereupon, at 10:25 i.m., the deposition wa::

2 cone 1 udfid . )
3
4
5 PHILIP HOWAHD MEO

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I, WENDY S. COX j_ the Officer before

whom the foregoing deposition was taJcen, do hereby
certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the
testimony of said witness was taJcen in shorthand and
thereafter reduced to typevrriting by me or under my
direction; that said deposition is a true record of the
testimony given by said witness; that Z am neither counsel
for, related to, nor employed by juy of the parties to
the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further,
that Z am not a relative ot^ employee of any attorney or
counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action.

Notary Publi^ in and for the
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

My Conmiission Expires

November 14, 19 87

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NAnE= MIR035000 ?7MAI ■A#%l«"aF«*^ PAGE 1

ONCLASSIFIED

OEPOSIIION or ARTHUR J. nXLLER

Wedn«sday> FAbruazy (4, 1987

Housa of Rapzasantativas ,
Salact Coanittaa to Invastigata
Covazt Arns Transactions with
Iian>
Washington. O.C.

Tha salact comnlttaa aat, pursuant to call, at 9>15 a.m.
in Room 2255. Rayburn Housa Ofiica Building. H. Hail
Egglaston. Spacial Daputy Chiai Counsal to tha Salect
Committaa. prasiding. Also pxasant: Gaorga Van Clave,
HHj^l Republican Chief Counsal and Joseph Baio, Counsel for
Arthur J. Millar.

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PattMy Otclassified/Reteassd (

uraler provisiofls ol E.O 12356
by K JoAnon. NatoiMl Sicirty Cound

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NAME:

2 3

3<4

>40

Il2

HIR035000

ONCLASSlfJED

Hhaiaupon,

ARTHUR J. MILLER,
having bean callad iot aKanination by counsel for the select
coranittea, and having been previously duly suoin by a Notary
Public, uas eMaminad and continued to testify as follows:
EXAHINATIOM BY COUNSEL FOR THE SELECT COHHITTEE:
BY HR. EGGLESTON'
2 ny nane is Neil Eggleston. I am Deputy Chief
Counsel of the House Select Comnittee to investigate covert
arns transactions with Iran. To my left is Mr. Georg* Van
Cleve, who is Chief Counsel--

HR. VAN CLEVE: Deputy Republican Counsel.
riR. EGGLESTOK: Deputy Republican Counsel.
BY MR. EGGLESTON:
fi Mr. Miller, also present with you hare today is
your attorney, Joe Balo, with the firm of Hilkie Farr £
Gallagher; is that correct?
A Yes.

e As you may hava been advised, the House Select
Committee Is Investigating various transactions Involving
the sales of arms to Iran and also as part of Its mandate--
its mandate Is muoh larger than this. It includes funding of
the contras li^^^^^^^^^^Hand that Is the purpose of this
Investigation.

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You are appearing today pursuant to a subpoena
duces tecun issued by that committee. Ue appreciate your
attendance here today.

Let me just tell you at the outset, before X begin
to ask you questions, i£ there are any questions that for
any reason ycu don't understand or don't make sense to you,
or my terminology is imprecise, which it may well be in this
area, and as a result of imprecise terminology you don't
understand my question, just ask me to rephrase it and I
will glad to do it. If at any time you need to consult with
counsel before you answer a question you axe welcome ta do
that as well.

Let me just tell you for your information generally
how X am going to proceed with the deposition. I am going
to ask you a few brief questions about yourself and your
involvement with the corporation Triad America.

X will ask you some questions about Triad America
and its various companies. And you have produced pursuant to
the subpoena various documents. I intend to ask you various
questions about the documents. X have been through the
docunants , Hr . Van Cleve and X both have gone through the
docunants that you have produced, and selected various
documents we will ask you about specifically.

X think what X will do, although this is a little
different from my usual pxactica, I think at tha end of the

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deposition I am going to take you through the deposition and
ask you about the docunent production to just insure you or
the corporation have complied with the subpoena duces tecum.
Do you understand?

A No.

S nr . Miller, hou old are you? I usually start uith
easy ones.

A I am either U1 or ((2. I think I am Ml.

S Do you remember your date of birth?

A Yes, I do.

a What is your date of birth?

Where were you born?
In New York.
New York City?
Queens .

li you would just tell me very briefly about your
educational background, I would appreciate it.

A I have got a B.A.. Bachelor of Arts, from the
University of Utah and I got a Raster's Degree and H.B.A.
from the University of Virginia.

fi Uhere did you go to high school?
A Bountiful, Utah.

Q You were born in Queens and there was a time you
and your family moved to Utah?

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KAME ■

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10 1

102

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1 1 1

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Yes

Hou old were you?

That uas in 19)?7, and I was 12 years old.

Where do you currently live, in Salt Lake City?

No .

Where do you live now?

Bountiful, Utah.

How iar is Bountiful from Salt Lake City?

Approximately 10 miles north.

Where are you currently employed?

J. am currently employed in a company called nij.ler
and Clark?

2 What does that company do?

A It is a consulting company. It does accounting
work and other consulting.

2 Is the Killer in Killer and Clark you?
A Yes .

2 Who is Clark?
A Steven K. Clark.

2 How long have you been employed by Killer and
Clark?

A Eight months .

2 Prior to the time that you were employed by Killer
and Clark/ whwere were you employed?
A Triad Kanagement Company.

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2 Where is Triad Management Company located?
A Salt Lake City.

e Can you give us the address of Triad Management
Company ?

A Yes. It is Suite 350, the number 5, Triad Center,
Salt Lake City, Utah, SMISO.

e Just so I don't forget, could you give me the
address of Miller and Clark?

A It is Suite 390, 5 Triad Center. Salt Lake City,
Utah 8(4 180.

2 Uou long were you employed by Triad Management?

A Approximately six years.

e Have you ever been employed by Triad American
Corporation?

A Ko.

e What does Triad Management Company do?

A It provides management services.

e At the time you were employed by it, to whom or to
what organization did it provide management services?

A To Triad American Corporation and its subsidiaries

e Here you an officer of Triad American Corporation?

A Yes.

fi What years were you an officer of Triad American
Corporation?

A 1983 through 1986.

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2 Did you tecaive a salary from Tiiad American
Corporation? . ' •

A Ho . ■ -

2 What was your position from *83 to '86 with Triad
American Corporation?

A I uas the senior vice president and chiei finance
officer. I uas also the secretary.

2 You were not employed by Triad American, you ueie
employed by Triad Management Corporation.

A That is correct.

2 Kho were the other employees of Triad Management
Corporation?

Well, let me ask it this way. How many employees
were there of Triad Management Corporation?

A Over the years there's probably been 200 to 300.

2 Did Triad Management Corporation essentially
comprise the top management of Triad American Corporation?

A Not necessarily.

2 I don't mean to be obtuse. I just want to Know your
relationship to the Triad American Corporation, and whether
the other offices of the Triad American Corporation were
also employed--

A Some of them were.

2 Some of them were and some of them weren't.

A That is correct.

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2 Prior to the tima you wera employed by or an
officer with triad American Corporation, where were you
employed ?

A I was with a company called Hycoff Company, Inc.

2 What was Uycoff's business?

A It is a regional trucking firm.

Q Uhere was it located?

A In Salt Lake City.

Q Did you work at Uycoff Company with any of the
people with whom you also worked at Triad American
Corporation?

A I think one other fellow worked for me at Triad
American, excuse me. Triad nanagement Corporation, who also
worked at Hycoff.

2 Was Uycoff purchased by Triad?

A Ko.

2 Did Uycoff — when I say Triad, Triad Management or
Triad Amerioan Corporation, was Uycoff an affiliated company
in any way with the Triad companies?

A no .

e Uhat years were you with Uycoff?

A 1979 through 1981 .

fi Uhere were you between 1981 and 1983?

A I was with Triad Management Corporation.

2 Uhat were your duties there when you were with

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ii6

HIR03SOOO

yi^CLASSlF^Ed

PAGE

Triad Management Corporation?

A I was vice president and the chief financial
officer .

2 Of Triad Management Corporation?

A Yes.

C And from 1983 to 1986. what was your position with
Triad Management Corporation?

A I was vice president and chief financial officer.

2 Did your duties change from after you became a
senior officer of the Triad American Corporation?

A No.

8 I want to ask you some questions about the Triad
American Corporation, and I am going to direct my
questioning to the time primarily between 1983 and 1986, the
years you were an officer of Triad American Corporation.

Do you know who the shareholders in the Triad
American Corporation were?

A Yes.

Q Uho were they?

A Triad International Corporation and Elk
International Corporation.

2 Do you know the percent ownership by each?

A Yes.

2 What was the percentage?

A Triad International Corporation owns 80 percent of

liNCLASSIFEED

471

NAHE :
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2 19
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22 1
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2(42

HIR035000 ;^'!VP-M-^-"^CE?'ii»'5 2 PAGE 10
Triad American Corporation and Elk international Corporation
owns 20 percent o± Triad American Corporation.

2 What IS the principle business of the Triad
American Corporation, or what was it from 1983 to 1986?

A Well, it had two major segments; one was the

ownership and development of real estate properties and the
other was the ownership and operation of an oil refinery m
Southern California.

e The oil refinery in Southsxn California was that
owned by a separate corporation or was it owned by Triad
American Corporation?

A Yes, a separata corporation.

2 Do you remaabet the nana of that?

A Yes.

2 Uhat is that?

A Edgington Oil Company, Inc.

e Did Triad American Corporation own 100 percent of
the stock in tha Edgington Oil Company?

A Mo.

fi Do you know tha percent ounarshlp, do you know who
tha shaxaholdars of Edgington Oil wara?

A Yas.

S Mho waza thay><

A Maw £dga ownad 100 parcant of Edgington Oil
Corporation.

liNCLASSIFSED

472

NAHE:
2U3

245
2U6
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248
249
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251
252
253
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HIR03S000

UNCLASSSFSED .

AGE 1 1

2 And Mew Edge was a corporation?

A Yes .

8 Do you know who the shareholders of New Edge were?

A Yes .

S Uho uexft thay?

A Triad International Corporation owned 100 percent
of Hew Edge.

2 Do you Know who owned tha shares of Triad
International Corporation?

A Yes.

A Hho was that?

A Triad American Corporation.

2 I didn't take a completa note here. Elk referred
to —

A Elk International Corporation.

2 Do you know who owned stock of the Elk
Intarnational Corporation?

A No.

2 You do not know?

A Ko.

2 Do you know who tha chiaf axacutiva officer was of
tha Elk Corporation?

A Ko.

2 Do you know who any of tha offiears ware?

A Ko.

473

NAHE
268
269
270
271
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275
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277
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281
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283
28M
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291
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HIR035000

UNCLASS!F5£d

PAGE 12

2 Do you Know who any of the directors were?

* Ho.

2 Do you know where Elk International Corporation is
located?

A No.

2 Did you have any dealings at all with the Elk
International Corporation?

A Nothing directly.

2 Do you know the principle place oi the Elk
International Corporation?

A No.

2 Do you know where it maintained its bank accounts?

A No.

2 You responded to iiy question whether you had any
dealings with then, which is an adnittedly ambiguous
question, you responded indirectly. Did you have indirect
dealings with them?

A Yes.

2 Hhat kind of dealings?

A I would be notified through various members of the
board of directors, namely Adnan Khashoggi and Tarig Kadri
as to any dealings with Elk International; in other words,
any transactions which had taken place.

2 So your knowledge of Elk International Corporation
came from conversations with onaTof those two individuals?

KNCLASSIF-ED

474

JiNCLflSSIFiED

HAHE: HIR03SO00 " ■^■T p^gj. ,3

293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
30U
305
306
307
308
309
310
31 1
312
313
314
315
316
317

A That is right.

2 You reietred to the person, Mr. Khashoggi, you had
dealings uith in this case.

A That is right.

2 You have also told us that the 80 percent
stockholder was an organization called the Triad
International Corporation; is that correct?

A Yes.

2 Do you know where its principle plaea of business
is? Do you know uhere that corporation is located?

A No.

2 Do you know who the shareholders of Triad
International Corporation are?

A Ko.

2 Do you know who the chief executive officer of
Triad International Corporation are?

A Ho.

2 Do you know any of the senior officers of Triad
International Corporation?

A No.

2 Do you know any of the directors of Triad
International Corporation?

A No.

2 Do you know — when I say know, I an asking have you
ever met a man by thtt nane of Adnan Khashoggi?

UNCLASSIFIED

475

NAHE
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320
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322
323
32U
325
326
327
328
329
330
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332
333
33i«
335
336
337
338
339
3<tO
3M1
3U2

HIR035000

bNCLASSlF:ED

PAGE m

Yes.

2 Hou many tiatts hava you nat Adnan Khashoggi?

A I think threa tines.

Q Do you recall each of the three times you net him?

A Not specifically.

8 Do you know generally uhere those three meetings
took place, the three tines you net hin?

A Yes.

2 Uhere did they take place?

A Two of then took place in Salt Lake City and one
of then took place in New York.

S
A

place?

2
York?

A
2

A
8
A
8

Where did they take place in Salt Lake City?

I don't renenber specifically.

do you reneaber which years each of the three took

Do you renenber where the neeting took place in New

Yes.

Hhare was that?

That was in the office of Robert Shaheen.

Hhere is that located, if you recall?

I think the Olynpic Towers in New York City.

Does Hr. Khashoggi own a residence in Olynpic

Towers, to your knowledge?

mLASSIF:ED

476

NANE:
3U3
3UU
345
3U6
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349
350
351
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353
354
355
356
357
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361
362
363
364
365
366
367

HIR035000

ONCLASSIFiED

PAGE 15

A I don't know.

2 To the best oi your knowledge, it was Hr . Shaheen's
office, not Mr. Khashoggi's resident?

A That is correct.

S When was that meeting?

A That was probably about April of 1986. April 1986.

S When were the two previous meetings?

A I don't know. You already asked me that.

2 You don't recall?

A It was sometime probably in 1982, 1983 or 1984,
somewhere around there.

2 Do you remember the purpose of the meting in 1986,
in or about April 1986.

a. The purpose of my meeting with Adnan was to shake
hands and say hello.

2 who else was there?

A At that meeting?

2 Yes.

A Sob Shahaen was there and Don Fraser was there and
Steven Clark was there.

2 What was your reason for being there?

2 We were there to discuss the disengagement of
Vertex and Don Fraser and the New York commercial people.

2 I will return to that as we get back to the
documents .

0NCLASSIF5ED

477

NAME
368
369
370
371
372
373
37i»
37S
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
38X
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392

HIR035000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 16

Do you KnoH the last tima fit. Khashoggi was m the
United States?

A KO.

C Do you knoH who Hr . Khashoggi is — when I am
referring to Hr . Khashoggi, Adnan Khashoggi--do you know who
his principal aid is?

A Mo.

fi You mentioned to us Robert Shaheen. Who is Robert
Shaheen?

A He is an individual that works with Mr. Khashoggi.

fi Do you KnoM who enploys him?

A No.

e Does he have a title with Hr . Khashoggi?

A I don't know.

e Does he have offices, to your knowledge, anywhere
other than Kew York?

A I don't know.

e How long have you known Hr . Khashoggi?

A I think I have met him two or three times probably.
beginning 1982.

S The other two occasions where you met Mr. Adnan
Khashoggi. was Hx . Shaheen present to the best of your
xeoollection?

A I think so.

fi Do you think each time you met Hr . Adndn Khashoggi,

bNCLASSgf'ED

478

HAHE :
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
(400
140 1
1402
1403
UOU
405
406
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408
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410
41 1
412
413
414
415
416
417

HIR035000

yNCLASSlPiED

PAGE 17

Ml. Shaheen had been pzesentl

A Probably.

2 Do you knou how often during 1985 and 1986 Mr.
Khashoggi came to the Triad American offices in Salt Lake
City?

A In 1985 and 1986?

S Yes.

A I don't think he came at all.

Q You don't think he was ever in the Triad American
offices in Salt Lake City?

A I don't think so.

Q Do you know who represented Mr. Khashoggi when he
was not in the United States, who handled his business?

A Ho, I don't.

2 Do you know if Mr. Khashoggi received a salary from
the Triad American Corporation?

A Yes.

2 Did he?

A Ho.

2 Do you know whether he received any money directly
from the Triad Anerican Cozpoxatlon?

A Ho.

I-'

2 You don't know?

A "I don't know. I say I don't know. I don't think he
did.

lSlieiftSSlRE3

479

NAME:
(«18
419
420
M21
422
X23
U2t*
>425
>(26
K27
428
U29
■130
i|31
U32
•433
i(3il
■435
>I36
•137
438
439
440
441
442

HIR035000

e But you have no knowledge?

PAGE 18

A No knowledge, no.

2 Do you know a man by the name of Boyd Fitma?

A No.

fi Hhen you say no, have you ever met him?

A No.

e I am not sure, I suspect you might have read his
name in the paper recently. I want to know whether you have
met him?

A No.

2 Although you didn't know him, do you know whether
he was employed by Triad American Corporation/

A He was not.

2 Do you know whether he did legal work for the Triad
American Corporation?

A I don't believe he did.

A Do you know whether he did legal work ior Triad

O
International Corporation'

A I have no idea.

2 Simply, I take it you would have no idea whether he

does legal work for Elk International Corporation?

A Ko.

2 Do you know a man whose nickname is Tiny, but I

i
guess his name was Rolin Rowland? "

A Ko.

UNCLASSIFIED

480

NAME:

U143

nns

>4U6
4147
14148
M149
1450
U51
1*52
453
(454

uss

456
457
458
459
U60
461
462
463
464
465
466
467

HIR03SOOO
2

.JNf)JUSSJFi£D.

PAGE 19
e before?

A I think I have read it in some newspaper accounts.

2 During the course of your employment by the Triad
Management Corporation and your work for Triad Management
Corporation, you did not come across his name?

A I did not.

2 Mr. Miller/ pursuant to the subpoena you produced
to the committee, and we appreciate it, three red whale
folders of documents. As I say, there are three folders.
They contain documents, as I recall, beginning--they are all
Bates stamped, and the documents are stamped from 1 to
1,458. Is that correct?

MR. BAIO: Mr. Miller didn't do the stamping or
indeed even see them after they were stamped.

MR. EGGLESTOH: Mould Mr. Miller recognize these as
the documents ha saw before?

MR. BAIO: Perhaps. Hhy don't you show him.
BY MR. EGGLESTON:

2 I would like to show you the docuaents--well , let me
just ask you> ware you involved in the collection of these
doeunents or rasponse to the subpoena issued by the House
Subcomnittee?

A Yes. ,

2 Have you looked at these documents; have you looked
at the documents you produced in response to that subpoena?

UNCLASSIF3ED

NAME

U68
U69
1*70
U7 1
"472
473
U7U
U75
1*76
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486

HIR035000

UNOLASSIF'£D>

GE 20

A Yes.

2 If I show you the stack, would you be able to
identify them as the documents produced by the subpoena?
A Yes.

2 I intend to have you identify them and mark them
all as a stack. .; '

HR. BAIO: That is quick.
THE WITNESS: That is the stack.
HR. EGGLESTON: I will have then marked as a.$
single exhibit and during the course of asking you about
then. I will refer to the Bates stanp number, which will be
a lot nore efficient than having the reporter mark each
single document, which would result in us being here
forever .

I would like to take a look at these docunents and
verify that these are the docunents that you produced. I
have selected out some.

MR. BAIQ: Off the record a second.
(Discussion ofi tha record.]

482

NAME:

487
1488
■489
U90
49 1
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
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510
511

KIR035000

SJF

^i%.W J-ii'S PAGE 2 1

RPTS DOTSOK -

DCKH STABKER ^

BY HR. EGGLESTON: K

B Hr . Hillez, have you had an opportunity to review

the records that I placed in front of you?
A Yes.
2 Are these the documents you produced in response to

the subpoena issued in Triad American Corporation?

A Yes . ,,..'- i- - . t. -.'- .■^L . --. ^ '■ ■'

S At the conclusion of this deposition I uill ask the
reporter to mark these AM- 1 . which at that time will be
three red whale files of documents. At this time I would
like to ask you about a series of documents / and, as I
indicated, I am going to refer to each document probably
first by its first page number, that is the Bates stamp, and
the subsequent Bates number as well for ease.

I am first going to show--and perhaps it might be
convenient if you could put them in front of him and I could
have these in front of me--number 009, number 9.

Z take it this document is a corporation report
filed with the State of Utah.

A Okay.

UNCLASSSFSED

483

NAME:

512
513

515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
52U
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
5314
535
536

UNCLASSfF^ED

HIR03SOOO -• PAGE 22

2 Is that cotract?

A Yes. it appears to be.

& It is for the corporation Triad American
Corporation; is that right?

A Yes, it is.

2 The name under that uas Emanuel A. Floor?

A Yes . ^

2 Uhat uas his position at Triad American?

A He uas one of the executive vice presidents.

2 Do you Knou hou long he had been uith Triad
American .Corporation?

A Yes . ;

2 Hou long?

A Since 197i4.

2 This document is dated April IK 198(4. At that
time uere you an officer of the corporation?

A Let me check the list. I uas not an officer at
that time .

2 You uere at that time employed by Triad Management
Corporation?

A That is right.

2 Earlier you had testified you became an officer you
thought in about 1983.

A Yes. It looks like it uas subsequent to 19^3. yes.

2 Did your duties change after you became an officer

ynCLASSIF'ED

484

NAHE'

S37
538
539
SUO
541
5<42
543
SUM
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561

HIR035000

UNCLASSIF3ED

PAGE 23

of Triad Anarican Corporation?

A Ho . ' ■ V ■■

2 X want to ask you about some individuals here.
First, in tha bottoit lait there is an authorized oiiicer who
is indicated as the Treasurer. Do you know whose signature
that is?

A Yes.

2 Whose is that?

A Dick Shanaaan.

e Is he still with Triad Anerican?

A Ho.

fi Is Mr. Floor still with Triad?

A No.

2 I was going to gat this later, but what is the
current legal status oi Triad American? Is it in
bankruptcy?

A Yas.

2 Uhan did it —

m. BAIOs Patltion for rallai.
BY ni. EGGLESTON:

2 Yas. Hhan did tha petition for raliai?

A January 27. 1987.

2 Hava you. in connection with that, given any other
daposition? Hava you baan deposed in connection with that?

A In connection with what?

UNCLASSIF'ED

485

NANE
562
563
56U
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566
567
568
569
570
57 1
572
573
5714
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577
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579
580
581
582
583
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586

HIR035000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 2H

S In connection with th« bankruptcy?

A No.

2 Have you given any depositions in the last six
months ?

A Yes.

2 In connection with your position with Triad
American Corporation?

A Yes.

2 Who took your deposition?

A I don't know the individual's name. It was in
connection uith some lawsuits that had been iiled against
Triad American by creditors.

2 Have you been contacted by the FBI?

A Ho.

2 Have you been contacted by any representatives of
the Senate Select Committee?

A I don't believe so.

S Finally, have you been contacted by any
investigator or representative oi the independent counsel's
oiiice?

A Hho is that?

MR. BAIO: X£ you don't know who he is, you
probably have not been contacted.

KR. EGGLESTON: It probably would have been
included in the FBI.

UNClASSiF.'ED

486

NAME:
S87
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
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598
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600
601
602
603
60t4
605
606
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609
610
61 1

HIR035000

UNCLASS!r:ZD

PAGE 25

nR. BAIO- Ha know oi no contact.
BY HR. EGGLESTOK:

2 Page 10 refers to a number of different individuals
who are the oiiicezs of the corporation as of this time, and
I would like to ask you about each of these individuals .
Essan Khashoggi is listed as the president and chief
executive officer. Do you know his relationship with Adn^n
Khashoggi?

A Yes.

fi Hhat is his relationship?

A He is a brother.

2 Do you know how long he had been president and
chief executive officer of Triad American? ,

A Ko.

Q The address listed for him on this document is an
address in Geneva. I won't read it because it is reflected
on the front of the document. Did he also have a residence
in Utah?

A No.

S Did you have regular dealings with him?

A Hhat do you mean regular?

e I am sorry. Bad question. Let me ask it this way:
Hhat percentage of his time did he spend at Triad
American's office in Salt Lake City?

A A very small percentage.

UNCLASSlFiS

487

ONCLASSinED

PAGE 26

NAME: HIR035000

612 2 Let ne try to quantify that in some way.

613 A Once every two or three months. .

6 114 2 He would be there for what length o£ time?

61S J Maybe a day, maybe half a day.

6 16 2 And the second person listed is Emanuel Floor, who

6 17 is listed as the executive vice president. Is the address

6 18 here his home address?

6 19 A Mo.

620 2 This is the address oi Triad American Corporation?

62 1 A It was the address of their corporate offices.

622 2 At that time?

623 A At that time.

62M 2 Was he essentially operating as the chief executive

625 officer of the corporation?

626 Let me ask it colloquially. Did he run the

627 corporation in the absence of Adnan Khashoggi?

628 A Let me cut through a lot of this crap here. Triad

629 American Corporation doesn't have any operations,, it is a

630 holding company. To say somebody was running it or not

631 running it. I mean there were no operations. Nannie Floor,

632 Emanuel A. Floor, was in charge of the real estate

633 operations and that is what he ran as a subsidiary of Triad
63X American Corporation.

635 2 All right. Thank you. so Triad American

636 Corporation essentially owned the other corporations?

UNCLASSIEEO

488

KAHE:
637
638

639
6140

61(2
6X3
6(4 4
6145
6(46
6U7
6>48
6149
650
651
652
653
6514
655
656
657
658
659
660
661

HIR035000

[jNi)LA3S!r?.D

PAGE 27

A That is right.

2 Thft raal estate corporation, the real estate
operations, uas that a number oi different corporations?

A It uas managed from one corporation. Triad Property
Corporation, and then that in itself uas a holding company
for other subsidies.

C I think later I have--let ma finish going through
these. I have a list that will make that question easy and
maybe quick. Hr . Evans, Samuel M. Evans, is listed as the
secretary of the corporation. What the percentage of his
time did he spend in Salt Lake City?

A A very small percentage .

2 Did you know Mr. Evans? ,

A I met him a feu times.

fi Do you know the corporation IHS Limited?

A Ko.

2 Do you know what IMS stands for?

A I have no idea. <

2 Do you know what he did for IMS Limited?

A I have no idea.

2 He is under indictment, is he not?

A I have seen his name in particular. I don't know
the details of this. ' ' ' ' .

2 The person listed as Treasurer is Robert Shananan.
I take it his offices were also at the principal location of

^^GLASS!F"E^

NAME ■■
662
663
66(t
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680

681

1 : f -

682
683
68>«
685
686

HIR035000

UNCLASSIFID

PAGE 28

Triad American?

A It is Richard Shanaman.

e Let ne just asK you to turn to page 11, which lists
the directors oi the corporation, and it indicates--let rae
ask you about Raymond Jallou. Do you know what his
connection was with Triad American Corporation?

A He was a director.

2 Was he also an officer or director of any of the
subsidiary corporations?

A Hot to my Knowledge.

S How about Tariq Kadri?

A Yes .

e rtr . Kadri, was he related to Adnan Khashoggi?

A Related?

2 Yes.

A I have no idea.

e And did he have any position with Triad American
other than as a director?

A At this point in time?
,. e Mo, as of 198>4.

A That's what I meant. I don't think so. I don't
think he did.

fi Was he Involved with one oi the subsidiary
companies?

A I guess he would be. In 1984, he would be involved

UNCUSSIFJEO

490

MAHE:
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
6914
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696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
70U
70S
706
707
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709
710
71 1

l^NCLASSIF'Ed

HIR035000 kdlMi:! ll'^'^fJy* W'kl PAGE 29
with the energy companies, and uas probably an officer in
one or several of those.

2 The energy companies, are they primarily the
refinery?

A The refinery in Southern California, yes.

2 Hhen you say at this time, did there come a time he
was no longer affiliated uith those companies?

A Yes. And he is no longer affiliated uith them nouf.

2 Do you knou when he ceased being affiliated?

A Yes .

2 Uhen was that?

A December 31, 1986.

2 I am now directing your attention to page 7, which
is the report dated February 25, 1985. I take it the
signature on here is yours. Is that correct?

A Yes.

2 This is the first time that you are reflected as
the senior vice president and secretary of the corporation?

A Yes.

2 Let B« just ask you under the officers if you could
just identify for me which ones principally worked out of
tha offices of Triad American Corporation?

A In Salt Lake?

2 In Salt Lake.

A Hell, let's see. Emanuel A. Floor. Arthur J.

yNGLASS!?"£3

491

KAME:
712
713

7114

71S
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733
73M
735
736

HIRO3SOO0

l^NCLAS!

PAGE

Millet, Michael G. Snart, Mark G. Lindfotd, Lawrence H.
Taylor, Henry 0. Whiteside, FranX E. Moss, Jr., Steven K.
Horton, Dee A. Hickin, Steven K. Klack, Patricia E. Davis,
and Shannon L. Uahl .

e Out of those, you omitted Mr. Kadri's name. Where
was his principal office, if you know?

A I think Santa Barbara.

e Do you know what business ha was in?

A Outside of Triad American?

C Yes.

A Ko, I don't.

e Mark Nugard, I think you mentioned. Where was his?

A He is the president of Edgington Oil Company and
has a residence in Southern California.

C The rest, as I recall, having gone through it, are
people whose principal offices were in Salt Lake City?

A I omitted Essam Khashoggl, too.

fi Yes. You and I talked early yesterday about
Khashoggl .

Let me direct your attention to document number t .
I take it there is no difference between the documents
listed--! am sorry, document number <* is the same document
dated August 1 1 , 1986 .

A What was the question?

S X aa just asking you to identify document number U

UNCLASSIFJEO

492

NAME:
737
738
739
740
71*1
7142
7U3
71414
745
7U6
7U7
7(48
749
750
751
752
753
7S<4
755
756
757
758
759
760
761

HIR03S000

UNCLASSy7:LD

PAGE 31

as the corpotate repoit iox tha Triad Anarican Coipotation
datsd August 11, 1986. • • vj- ...

A That is correct. '•''''

Q It is signed this time by Mr. Emanuel Floor: is
that correct?

A That is correct.

Q Is there a reason he became the new registered
agent at the first of the year?

A As opposed to me? I was no longer the registered
agent. Someone had to be.

Q Is there a reason you were no longer the registered
agent?

A Yes. .- ■ --■

e Why was that?

A I resigned.

2 You were gone by this time? '

A Yes.

C Of this list, the people are substantially the sane
except for Roger I. Dudley. Has his principal office at
Salt Lake City?

A Yes.

2 Ha was assistant secretary?

A Ya«.

2 You have also given us 3 and 6. It appeared to me
there is no difference between 3 and 6. I want to be sure I

UNCLASSIr'ED

493

NAME:
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
774
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786

PAGE 32

HIR03S000 'i.^i ■•♦ '..'ivi -"".f i.
am right on that? ^

A Ytts. thay look lik« th«y ara tha sama.

2 This is a docunant dated December 17, 1986.

A Yes.

2 You ara listed as the assistant secretary in this
document; is that correct?

A Which document ara you talking about?

2 Let's talk about 3. You were listed as assistant
secretary in this document; is that right?

A That is correct. ,

2 Hera you actually with tha company as of this time?

A What do you mean, with tha company?

2 Hadn't you resigned by this time?

A I had resigned in early June of 1986, and then I
came back as an officer in early September 1986.

2 I did not--I guess in response to my question, I
didn't realize you had cone back as an officer of the
corporation in early September.

A Yas.

2 Did you coma back than both as part of Triad
Managamant Corporation and as--

A I cama back as an officer of Triad Management, but
not as an employee .

2 And you ware also an officer of Triad American
Corporation? ^..

mimfB

494

NAME:
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
7914
795
796
797
798
799
800
801
802
803
80M
805
806
807
808
809
810
811

mmm?E

HIR03S000 ii??is-B ^i>"^8f2f5l p^GE 33

A That is correct.

8 Did you ever cease becoming an oiiicer of triad
American Corporation?

A Yes.

Q So there was a period of time from June to
September 1986 when you had no affiliation with Triad
American Corporation or Triad Management Corporation?

A Well. I was providing some services as a
consultant .

S Whan after, then, September of 1986, did you resign
again or did you cease becoming affiliated with either Triad
American or Triad Hanagement?

A I have not.

e I must have confused myself. I thought you told me
you were not affiliated since June of 1986. Did I
misunderstand?

HR. BAIQ: Ke resigned at that time. He came back
and he is back now.

HR. EGGLESTOK: I misunderstood. I thought you had
ceased your affiliation with them.

THE HITMESS: No. I am not an employee.
BY HR. EGGLESTOK'

S So your current position is assistant secretary?

A That is correct.

e Let m* show you a doeunent, it looks like it is

495

NAME

812
813
81(4
815
816
817
818
819
820
82 1
822
823
82M
825
826
827
828
829
830
831
832
833
83((
835
836

HIR03S0OO

lEO

PAGE 3(4

number 12. You had indicated that when you were with--I had
asked you eailiei with tespect to an earliez period of
enployment whether or not you were paid in your position as
an oiiicer oi Triad nanagement Corporation. I think you
indicated you ware not paid.

A That-is correct.

S Are you currently being paid as an assistant
secretary of the Triad American Corporation?

A No.

Q Are you currently being paid as an officer of the
Triad Management Corporation?

A Ho.

Q HoH are you compensated for the work you are doing
for the Triad Companies?

A In the past ue had billed various companies for
services as consulting fees.

2 You indicated in the past. How today are you being
compensated? As a consultant?

A There is a question as to how I an being
compensated today beoause ue put those companies into
bankruptcy. That question has not been resolved.

fi You went into bankruptcy lat* January 1987?

A January 27.

S Prior to that time, how ware yoAi compensated?

A He personally?

UNCLASSIFIED

496

KAHE:
837
838
839
8U0
84 1
8X2
8X3
81414
8145
846
847
848
849
850
851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
860
861

OHCUSSIBEB

HIR035000 UllULnUUIB iamV PAGE 35
S Yes.

A I was paid iroa tha conpany which I an a principal
ownttr; that's Hillar £ Clazk.

2 nillttz £ Clazk zacaivad funds as a consultant to
Triad Companias?

A I racaivad funds from anothaz company who in turn
billed Triad.

2 Uhat was that company?
A Sequanca Corporation.

2 Do you Know who ownad Saquanca Corporation?
A Xes.

e Who was that?

A I ownad 10 parcant, Steva Clazk owns 10 pazcent and
I think Vertex owns 80 parcant.

8 Uhen was that corporation established?
A In June of 1986.

rtR. BAIO: ''That cozpozation, ' ' Sequence
Corporation.

HR. KGGLESTON: Yes.
It was established in June 1986?
THE WITNESS: That is correct. ,
BY MR. EGGLESTOK=
2 Was that established after you resigned from your
positions with Triad and Triad Hanagamant?
A That is correct.

lINClASSiFlEi

497

HAKE:
862
863
86M
865
866
867
868
869
870
87 1
872
873
874
875
876
877
878
879
880
881
882
883
88U
885
886

ONOlASSlFiED „

HIR035000 &J] 1liJL.I«iJa.»ea ■&.!# PAGE 36

fi Wher« is Sequenc* Corporation located?

A It is located in Salt Lake City.

Q What is the principal business oi Sequence
Corporation?

A It was set up to market and distribute software,

coaputer software.

Q The corporation Vertex Corporation, where is that
located?

A I think its principal offices are in Toronto.
Canada .

2 Do you know who the shareholders of Vertex
Corporation are?

A KO.

2 Do you know who the officers of Vertex Corporation

A No.

2 How do you deal with the Vertex Corporation?

A Don Fraser.

2 Do you know his position with Vertex Corporation?

A I don't.

2 Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Miller?

A Yes.

2 Are you related to Ernest tliller?

A Ko.

2 Ernest is actually his middle name, isn't it? If

UNClASSiHED

498

KAHE:

887
888
889
890
89 1
892
893
89*4
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
902
903
9014
905
906
907
908
909
910
911

UNCLASSIFIED

HIR035000 lli^ill f4lll^ir ir II PAGE 37

you Know.

A I don't know. We just call him Exnia .

2 You ate not related to him?

A No. I aa not.

2 Is he aiiillated with Vertex Corporation?

A Don't know.

2 Do you know who the chief executive officer of
Vertex Corpora.ti.on is?

A Ko . the only person I dealt with. I will tell you
this again, is Don Fraser. I think he is an officer, but I
don't know, what his position is.

2 Do you know the principal business of the Vertex
Corporation?

A No.

2 You believe, though, it is a Canadian corporation
located in Toronto?

A Yes.

2 I will get back to the Vertex Corporation in a
minute .

Does Sequenc* Corporation still exist, still a
corporation?

A Yes.

fi Is It still Involved In the business of narketlng

software?

A Yes.

UNCussra

NAME:
912
913
9 m
9 IS
9 16
917
918
919
920
921
922
923
9214
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
93t*
935
936

HIR03S000

UNtJSSinED

PAGE

C Did you tell me developing or macketing soituaie?

A Harketing.

2 Of software?

A Of software.

It IS also involved in sone development on some
computer hardware, too.

2 As I go through some of the other documents I am
going to have detailed questions about various of these
corporations and I will get to them at that time.

A Okay.

e J. ask you to take a look at a document, the first
page which is listed number 12. which is a bank account
listed for Triad American Corporation. Did you produce this
in response to the subpoena?

A I had it produced.

2 So this was not a pre-existing document?

A Ko.

2 There are a number--actually , it is almost two full
pages--th«rtt are a number of different companies listed here,
organizations and partnerships. Are these Triad and its
affiliated companies?

A Yes.

2 So when you refer to, for example. Triad American
Corporation as a holding company and it did its development
business through a number of different corporations, those

UNCUSSinED

500

NAHE:
937
938
939
9U0

942
9K3
9414
945
946
947
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
961

HIR035000

UNCLASSiriEO

PAGE 39

corporations are reilected on this list?

A Yes. '

C Similarly, you said part of its business was energy
related. I take it those companies are also reilected on
this list?

A Yes. There are some accounts that, operating
accounts that the energy company would have in Southern
Caliiornia. We have no direct control over those. Those
are just operating accounts for, say, Edgington Oil Company.

fi So what you just told me is that Edgington Oil nay
have vari9us operating accounts not xeilactad here?

A Yes.

fi Let me taKe a minute to look over this list.

A Sure. Go ahead.

Q This may be too broad a question for you to answer,
but does Triad American own 100 percent of the stock of
each of those corporations?

A The answer is no, not entirely.

fi Can you identify which ones it does not own 100
percent of the stock of?

A Hell, first of all, it owns 100 percent of the
stock in some coapanias such as Triad Properties, but Triad
Propexties will in turn own 100 percent of the stock in
other companies such as Salt Lake International, so it
doesn't directly own> but indirectly at does.

WIASSIFIEO

501

HIR035000

ONCUSSIflEO

PAGE MO

NAME:

962 there are some companies here that--let me see if I

963 can pick them out. At one point in time Highland Drive

964 Sugar House Place had a partner in there. It uas a SO^SO

965 partner. ^ - - ^ ,.

966 2 Do you know the partner?

967 A The partner was Sugar House Limited Partnership.

968 e Do you know who owns Sugar House Limited

969 Partnership?

970 A John D. Stevenson, a fellow in Idaho, and some

971 family members from the Stevenson family.

972 The other one that comes to mind right now is SLIC

973 i«810 —

97(4 2 Let me just get chere. >. • <

975 A — Hiley Post Hay Limited Partnership. That is a

976 partnership that owns a building in which we own 60 percent.

977 Another one was Triad Burbank Associates.

978 2 Do you know who owned the other >40 percent?

979 A Yes.

980 2 Hho was that?

981 A X company called, it us«d to be HcGlnnis Ford. It

982 is out of Oklahoma. Triad Burbank Associates was a company

983 which Txald owned I believe 80 percent of it, and the

98(1 partner in that was another partnership called Geiger Tower

985 Associates. Gelgez Tower Associates had a bunch of

986 different partners, some in California.

BNCUSSIRED

502

MAKE :

987

988

989

990

991

992

993

994

995

996

997

998

999

1000

1001

1002

1003

loot

1005
1006
1007
1008
1009
1010
101 1

HIR035000

sfUiSsife ,

AGE <41

2 Were any of the paitners involved in Geiger Touer
Associates, were any of them also involved in the other
Traid company?

A Ko.

2 Do you know who the principle players in Geiger
Associates are? :■'-.•:<

A Sure. Steve Geiger and Dee Christiansen were the
developers .

And that is pretty nuch it as far as outside
ownership.

One other, on Triad, Lacaille Ventures, that was a
corporation of which Triad owned 80 percent and the limited
partnership there was called Lacaille nanagenent Group. It
was a partnership to run a restaurant. The Lacaille group
operated some other restaurants and cane to operate this for
us . ■• ' V - i -f - ■; , ••

fi Who are the principal owners, if you know?

A David Johnson and Steven Runolfson.

S You have also on document number 14. given us a
list of the telephone numbers. Let me ask you. I take it
these are all the phone numbers located at the main offices
of Triad; is that correct? -

A Yes.

fi I see some are coin phones and everything else.
Can you identify which one is the principles' number for Mr.

yNOUSSIRED

503

HAKE:
1012
1013
10 IK
10 IS
1016
1017
1018
1019
1020
1021
1022
1023
102>4
1025
1026
1027
1028
1029
1030
1031
1032
1033
103U
1035
1036

HIR035000

Floor?

numbers .

number .

UNDUSSI

for floor/

The number is--let me just give you the main

Okay.

Ue had 537-7300, and you can see it says the old

That was the main number before the offices moved
to their present location.

nr . floor had a private line. His was 537-7310.
That is on there, too.

The main--we have actually two main numbers nou for
the group. One is 537-5000, and the other is 537-7000. and
there are no private lines associated with that telephone
system.

Q Does Mr. floor have a private line now?
A No, he doesn't. He is no longer with the company.
2 Prior to the tine he left the company, I take it he
was with the company after he moved to its new location, did
he not?

Ko.

He was not?

No.

Who is the person that principally runs the company

fi
A

today?

wm^m

MAKE:
1037
1038
1039
10U0

i6m

1042
1043
1044
10U5
10<46
10U7
1048
1049
1050
1051
1052
1053
1054
1055
1056
1057
1058
1059
1060
1061

HIR03S000
A
2
A

! A

2
1086.

«iS5ffl

PAGE

The day-to-day operations?

Right.

Me .

0£ Triad American Corporation?

That is right.

There is a number here which is called, it is 534-

A Yes.

2 It says command C. What does command C stand for?

A Command center.

2 What is the command center?

A They monitor the lights and the heat. I have seen
security people. If there is any emergencies, that is--those
are the people that call up the paramedics. They take care
of the janitors. If people will need to get into certain
areas of the building, they are the people uho can let them.

2 I know you previously told me when Mr. Floor left
the company, but when was it he left?

A Hall, in affect, his authority was reduced in
September of 1986, and he was in a token position until, I
think, Kovambar of '86, is when he left. It could be a
little later. You know, he has got some kind of resignation
latter ha wzota. I don't know the exact date on that, but
it was probably around November of '86.

2 Do you have a private line?

SEI

iiiu

505

NAME:
1062
1063

106>4
1065
1066
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
1072
1073
10714
1075
1076
1077
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
1084
1085
1086

!?i'Lfldei

HIR035000 ^* ^vtyina 'i<r5'WI3 I3_,y PAGE UU

A No> I don't. I had on« .

2 What was it?

A Whan we had the old systen, 537-7318.

S Is It on there?

A I don't see it. There was a series. There uas--uhen
you see the 537-7300 number, that was a series of numbers.
we had 20 lines. I think it went 1 through 20, 730-1, 730-2
and so forth. The private lines started with the number 10
and went up to 20 and mine was 731-8. There were others, but
X don't know what theirs specifically were.

2 ,Let me return to document number 12. During the
course of this I asked you about the various corporations.
You have listei? a number of bank accounts here for the
various different corporations including the Triad American
Corporation.

Other than these, are there any--and in this. X
think there is one, or I guess there are two foreign bank
accounts listed. There's Bank of KT Butterfield listed for
the Triad American Corporation, which is located in the
Cayman Islands, and there is another one which is on page 13
which is a Triad Energy Corporation Bank, it appears to be
Euro Commercial and it is also located in the Cayman
Islands. Other than those two, did Triad American or any of
its affiliated companies have any foreign bank accounts?

No.

Bm.SSlf!EO

506

Hknt HIR035000

UNcussra

PAGE US

1087
1088
1089
1090
109 1
1092
1093
1094
1095
1096
1097
1098
1099

2 Where is the principal location of Triad Energy
Corporation?

A It is--well, the books and records are kept in Salt
Lake City.

2 Who is the chief executive oiiicet oi Triad Energy?

A Nou?

S I will start with now.

A I an not sure who the chief executive officer is
right now.

2 You don't nou who it is right now?

A No.

2 Do you know who it was in the years 1985 and 1986?

A It was probably Tarlq Kadrl.

IINCUSSiFO

KANE:

1 100
1 101
1 102
1 103
1 104
1 105
1 106
1 107
1 108
1 109
1110
1111
1112
1 1 13
1 1 m
1 1 IS
1 1 16
1 1 17
1 1 18
1119
1120
1121
1122
1 123
112U

HIR035000

RPTS DOTSON
DCHN STABNER

( Rftcftss .1

BY HR. EG6LEST0M:

2 L«t BA ditact youz attantion to document number 15.
This is--and I think th«r« was a raierencs to this in the
previous document — this account opened it looks like December
7, 198>« in Cayman Islands. KT Butteriield and Son. It .
zeilects a loan to Sigma X oi «tO million, I guess, and on
the same day, which is December 31, 198U, a loan from Triad
International. /

Do you have any knowledge of this loan?

A Only the way it was handled on the books o£ Triad
American Corporation.

fi Do you know the purpose of the loan?

A Uhlch loan? It shows two loans there.

fi *^ere is a loan from and a loan to.

A The loan from Triad International Corporation was
treated as a capital contribution from Triad International.
The loan to Sigma X was a loan to a company called Sigma X
Limited. And, to my understanding, Sigma X Limited took
that money and purchased a 10 percent share of Sigma X,

yneussinED

508

KAHE:
1 125
1 126
1 127
1 128
1 129
1 130
1131
1 132
1133
1 13U
113S
1 136
1 137
1 138
1 139
1 140
1141
1 142
1 143
1 144
1 145
1 146
1 147
1 148
1 149

HIR035000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 47

which was a conpany that had the rights to some oil reserves
in the Sudan.

2 Is Sigma X a corporation? Hot Sigma X Limited,
now?

A X don't know.

2 Do you know who owned or was the principle!
operating oiiicer of Sigma X? ''

A Ho, I don't.

2 How about Sigma X Limited?

A I don't know.

2 You don't know whather that was a corporation?

A Ho. I don't.

2 You don't know who ownad it?

A No.

2 You don't know who was tha principal operating
officer ? '

A Ho, I don't. As iar as Triad American was
concerned, the money came in and went back out.

2 Is this the only transaction that took place in
this account?

A That is right.

2 If you know, what was the purpose of--two purposes.
What was the purpose of doing it through a Cayman Island
account as opposed to your own account in a Salt Lake City

bank?

UNCliSSiFIED

509

HknZ- HIR035000

1150
1151
1 152
1 153
US'*
1 155
1156
1 157
1158
1159
1160
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165

1167
1 168
1 169
1170
1171
1172
1173
117U

IINCUSSIFIED-

A Ho, I don't.

Q Do you know whose decision it was to establish a
Cayman Island account in order to process this transaction?

A Ko.

2 You indicated that the loan iron Triad
International uas treated as a contribution to capital?

A Yes.

Q Do you know whether the loan from Signa X has been
repaid?

A The loan from Sigma X has been written off, or I
should say, fully reserved.

C Which is to say it was not--

A That's right.

e By fully reserved. I take it that means you don't
anticipate getting repaid for that loan?

A That is right.

2 Do you know what Sigma X did with the loan, with
the money?

A I already told you that. It was my understanding
they purchased a ten percent ownership in Sigma X and that
Sigma X was the owner of these oil reserves or rights to
reserves In the Sudan.

e Do you know whether the oil reserves in Sudan and
wherever developed?

A I don't believe they were because shortly after

UNCUSSIFI[D

510

NAME:
1 175
1 176
1 177
1 178
1179
1 180
1 181
1 182
1 183
1 ISU
1 185
1 186
1 187
1 188
1 189
1190
1191
1 192
1 193
1 19U
1195
1196
1 197
1 198
1199

HIR035000

UNCUSSIFIED

PAGE 49

this transaction was dona, I b«liava theie was a change in
govarnmant and tha naw govarnnent in tha Sudan and voided
all previously-all pzavious contracts that had been
established .

2 Has it your decision to reserve it?

A Yes. ■.:■ ' ^ , : " ^ t

2 Uhan did you decide to reserve it, or whatever the
terminology is?

A IT was either lata '85 or early '86.

2 Do you know whether Sigma X and Sigita Limited are
private corporations? Do you know whether they were
corporations at all? • ;,

A I don't.

S Do you know where thay are located?

A Ho.

2 Are there any additional loan documents involving
Sigma X? I mean, as Triad American, you must have had a
document?

A Yes. I think wa have got a loan, a note, a signed
note from Sigma X.

2 Has this a secured loan? , '-

A Mo . , , ^ .

2 X taka it that tha loan note would have an
individual's name on it?

A I am sura it would. Somebody signed for that

UNOLASSIFIEO

511

HAHE:
1200
1201
1202
1203
12014
1205
1206
1207
1208
1209
1210
1211
1212
1213
121>t
1215
1216
1217
1218
1219
1220
1221
1222
1223
122M

lOUSSiFSED

corporation.

2 You don't recall who that is?

A Ko, I don't.

2 I wonder if you could provide that to us?

A Sure .

2 That note would only reflect information related to
Sigma X Limited?

A That is correct.

2 Kot to Sigma X itself?

A Ko.

2 %o\i would also have. I take it. some supporting
docitments about the loan itself. X take it there would be
additional supporting documents?

A I will send you what I have. I think in that file
you just have the information on the note. I will pull out
the file and send you all the documents associated with it.

2 Ooas Triad Amarican Corporation make public
filings? Does it file things with the SEC?

A No.

2 Is that because it is a privately held corporation.
It Is not obligated to make filings?

A That is right.

e Ooas it make official public filings with any
organization othar than Internal Revenue Service and.
obviously, the Salt Lake equivalent —

mmmn

5ii

KAKE:
1225
1226
1227
1228
1229
1230
1231
1232
1233
123U
1235
1236
1237
1238
1239
12>40
12m
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HIR035000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 51

A Taxing Authority.

C Tax Authority, whatever it is, and this corporate
report which also has to be filed with Utah. Does it make
any other filings?

A No.

I take it back. There are sone reports that we
prepare, and I can't remenber which governmental agency it
is for, but it is like the Department of Agriculture or
something like that. There is some report they normally
send out that we have to fill out every year.

Q J)o you know the purpose oi the report?

A It is an information type report.

S Like how many pages Is it? How long a report is

it?

A It is a four ox five page report, but they are big
pages. 2<4 inches by about —

fi What does it require you to report?

A Just information about the corporation, and
essentially It asks for information that wa don't do. It
asks for how much grain has baen shlppad or how much
invantory wa produce every year. It's like a manufacturer's
typa zapoxt. And we don't do anything, but we are required
to flla It.

fi You think you filed It with the Department of
Agxlcultuxa?

lm^ssm

NAME:

1250

> 1251

1253
125<4
1255
1256
1257
1258
1259
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126<t
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SIRES

HIR035000 PAGE 52

A I'm not sura who ue filed it with. It may be one
oi the othec departments.
.• , V S Commerce? . :- ;.. ,no *; ' v , •

A It might have been Commerce.

e Are you required to report financial transactions?

A Mo.

fi Just primarily manufacturer's type--

A Yes. I think ue do file like a balance sheet
information, total assets, total liabilities, things like
that.

e ^hat are the total assets approximately, what were
they as of December 31, 1986 oi Ixiad American Corporation?

A I haven't finished the financial reports yet for
that period so X can't give you an accurate number.

fi Are you on a fiscal year basis?

A Ho . ;■■::■<

fi Calendar year? < -^t,' ;. ' "

A Calendar year. ■■mi','- ^i'-''.

ft How about as of Oecembex 31, 1985? Tou can give me
your best current recollection of an approximation.

A Probably about «M25 million total assets.

fi Document number 1, which Is two pages, is a list of
dlreotozs since 198>t. Was this a pre-existing document or
did you prepare this pursuant to subpoena.

A He prepared it pursuant to the subpoena.

\\m mmf\

514

KAHE:
127S
1276
1277
1278
1279
1280
1281
1282
1283
12811
128S
1286
1287
12M
1289
1290
1291
1292
1293
■UM
129S
1296
1297
1298
1299

HIR035000

UNcussire

PAGE

2 What I would lik« to do is just 90 through th«s«
and ask you whan paopla bacoma diractoxs and whan thay
stoppad bacoaing dixactors . If you can giva ma your bast
appcoNimatlon about whan that occuzrad.

Ivan Buzgass xs llstad thaca, nuabaz 1> Euco Bank
Cozpozation. Gzand Caynan. Oo you zacall appzoKlnataly whan
ha baeana and caasad bacoaing a dizaotoz?

k I ballava ha baoaaa a dizaotoz In Hazeh 1968 and
caasad balng a dizaotoz In about Apzll 1986.

e Hz. Evans?

A Z don't Know whan ha baeaaa a dlzaetoz. I think
soaatlna In 198S. Ra casad bains a dizaotoz.

S Hz. Floor?

A Z don't knoM whan ha baeaaa a dizaotoz. la caasad
balng a dizaotoz In lata *86.

ft nz. rrasaz. Z taica It slBliazly la Hazeh to Apzll
'86?

A That la eerraet. ^

a ftayaen4 JalloM? •■:'
'4 A X think ha baeaaa a diraotos seaatlaa In 1983 and
than Mant oii tha beazd la 1984. la was thaza ioz a short
Mziod ei tlaa.

8 Hr. Kadzl? ■ '-■•^■■'<^ • -■

A la baeaaa a dizaotoz la 1983 and laft tha boazd
Daeanbar 31. 1986.

515

• « ft •
'. » <\ V * J.

iirts.'^- \i

NAHE

1300
1301
1302
1303

laoM

1305
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1.319
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HIR035000

yNOIiSSIFlEO

PAGE

S Adnan Khashoggi?

A Adnan Khashoggi bacama a director in aither
Saptambar or Octobar oi 1986.

Q I am sorry? .-.it^'-^ i " .'

A Ha bacama a director in Saptambar or Octobar of
1986, yas, and ha is a director now.

Q Ha was not previously a director?

A Ko. 0J> .';-<i..' .'fl- :-*urf !j.t.:'

S Has ha previously an oiiicer of the corporation?

A I believe so. •" - ,..:.

C (ssam Khashoggi?

A X am not sure when he became a director, but I
think he cased being a director around September or October

of 1986. *' -Irvr.:. .■ -t/Xu-:^ , j r - ■• '.ii

fi Are positions on the board ii.l»d — is there a
position that is then filled by someone else?

Let me ask it this way. Did Cssam Khashoggi take
Adnan Khashoggi 's place on the board? ' - ^ '- '>^^-

A Triad American Corporation is required to have
three directors, and I don't know whose place he took but as
a vacancy was opened up it was filled by various people. I
think Adnan was made a member of the board when Essam left.

fi nohammed Khashoggi?^ ^ - i' ' '

A I don't know. "^ ■>; .>**!'.•>*

e Is he related to Adnan and Essam Khashoggi?

yNSlASSIflEB

516

U2S
1326
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1329
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13MS
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\3H7
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13119

. BHCUSSIFIED •■

Hint: HI1103SOOO |l?.!l'l nVVll>3i.!l P»« 55

X Yes.

ft Hhat is his ralationship?

A Hs is Adnan's sen.

a Uh*n was ha a ■•■bar of tha board, or is ha a
aaabac of tha board?

A Ha baeaaa a Maabac of tha boaxd?

A Ha baeaaa a aaabax of tha board as of tha aiddla of
Januaxr 1987. Again, wa had to raplaea a aaabar . Uhan
Tarif Kadri rasivnad. Ma had to raplaea hia. That is whan
nohaaaad want on tha beard .

ft Row old is nohaaaad T

A I aa 9uassing. 2*1.

ft Nr. Killar, Z taka it. siailarly. Hr. Ualtar Irnast
tlillax, was siailarly Harch to April '86?

A That is eerraet.

ft Again on paga 2 thara is a list of tha ofiiears of
tha corporation. Z think Z hava substantially askad you
about all thasa paopla and will net go ovar this list.

Z aa sorry* lat aa just— Z do want to go ovar tha
list, but Z will go ovar it fuiekly. Kaaaual Floor and nr.
Kadri ara both listad as awacutiva viea prasidant.

A That is eorraet.

a Zs that a suoeassien or war* thara two awaeutiva
vica prasidaats?

A Thara wasa two awaoutiva viea prasidants^ •

mu%w^

KAnc

1350
1351
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^ 1356
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HIR03S000

uNtiAssra

PAGE 56

Q Sinilarly, thera are two prasidents listed here,
Hr . Ftasex and Essam Khashoggi. '^'

A That uas a succession.

2 Does it go from Essam Khashoggi to Fraser and does
it go back to Essam Khashoggi?

A I don't know. *^< ,. - |

Q Do you know who became the president?
A I don't know ii one was named,
fi Is there a president now?
A Yes . ' '"' '

fi Who is that? * -^''^

A Hr. Fraser. -- - ■ ^ ■
e Donald W. Fraser is the president?
A Yes .

8 He resigns, it is in here, late April — maybe it is
even Hay oi 1986. '''' ' '

MR. BAIO: I think it is April. The document is
dated Hay.

nVL. EGGLESTON: X just don't remember. Something
else happens late in Hay, we'll get to it.

He resigns as president; is that correct?
THE HITHESS: Yes.
BY HR. EGGLESTON^
Q There Skcomes a time he becomes president again?

A Yes.

ONCUSSIRED

518

UNQiSSIRED ~

Hint-- RZK035000

1375 e Hh«n wat that?

1376 ft IN about Saptaabac 1986.

1377 s So ha is currantly prasldant?

1378 A Yas.

1379 e Is Ke . Einast nillat, Exnia HillaE. currantly

1380 aiiiliatad with Triad? -jr.

1381 I In tarns of baing an oiflear or diractor?

1382 e Right. .,

1383 A No.

13814 ft Is ha an amployaa?

1385 . » No.

1386 ft Is ha affiliatad in any foraal fashion?

1387 A Not that I know of.

1388 ft Hou about Hr . Burgass?

1389 . A No.

1390 ft Do you know Hr . Burgass?

1391 A No.

1392 ft To your knewladga. is ha an oificar or diractor oi

1393 aithax Vartax or Euro —
139M A I don't know.

1395 ft So you know his ralationship with Hr . Frasar or dr.

1396 Ixnast Millar?

1397 A I don't know.

1398 ft Businass partnar of soaa natura?

1399 A nay ba. but I don't know.

«HCiissra

KAnZ- HIR035000
1400

mo 1

mmm -

1402

1403

1404

1405

1406

1407

1408

1409

1410

141 1

1412

1413

1414

1415

GE 58
fi Th« last names, Hugatd, Linford, Taylor and
Hhitesida, which oi thosa is currently with Triad American
Corporation?

A None oi them.

Is there an assistant vice president today?
Ho.

Is thee a senior vice president today?
No.

8 Hhen did they leave. Do you know?

A They left when they were terminated, probably in
September, oi 1985. or —

Q 1986? ' " "^ ;

A 1986. ;'"

e What happened in September oi 1986? Has there a
reorganization oi the corporation?

A Yes.

V; .••>?. , / .-

Ur^uU^irij id)

520

Hxnz-

1K16
H»17

mis

ti420
1(421
1«22
1U23
1U24
m25
1426
11127
1428
1*429
1(430
1(431
1(432
1(433
1(434
1435
1436
1437
1438
1439
1440

HIR03S000

OCnX GLASSNAr

e Hhat happ«n«d?

A Lttt a* just tall you th« story. Th*n you can asK
questions li my •Kplanation doasn't suiilca.

a Okay.

A In 19 — In April-Hay. 1986, Don Frasar and th« othar
paopla assoclatad with Euro Bank and Vortax cama In to
provida soma Banaganant assistance . Thay also uara to
provida soma cash for tha operations. Thay cana in. thay
started providing cash, they saw the problems that existed
and started to make some changes.

There were some disagreements between those people
and the management that had been in place for a number o£
years, and the management that had been in place convinced
the owners that they didn't need to make any changes, that
everything was going to be fine and that they should ask the
people that had come in to leave, and convinced them to do
that. They asked Fraser. niller and their people to leave.
and they did. It is evidenced by the disengagement
agreement.

During the subsequent months, the existing
management continued to throw the company into serious

521

NAME-

1U142
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HIRO3SO00 PAGE gg

financial difficulties, and it got to th« point uheie th«y
ware extremely serious. There were some very company-
threatening problems that existed in early September. At
that point, Fraser was asked never to come back again. At
that point of time, they came back in and intended to cut
the overhead, uhich they had intended to do early in the
year, and that is when you see a lot of these people
leaving .

The staff Has cut when they first came in in March
of 1986. There were probably 250 to 270 people in the
overhead of the corporation that existed. The overhead uas
at times upwards of «2, «2 . 5 million a month. They
subsequently reduced that overhead in the initial cuts to
about 150 people in nazch and April. When they came back in
in September, they reduced that down further to the point
where we have. I think we have ten employees right now.

e Can you give ■• an estimate of what the assets of
Triad American are now?

A Yes.

9 You Indicated —

A They are about 400. 425. something like that, 425
million. " '' • ^ -

e Do you know what the liabilities are as of today?

A Yes.

fi I take It they exceed —

■ ^-^

522

KANE

me?

1<468
1U69
tit70
1«I71
1U72
1«473
1i47<4
1075
I<I76
H477
11478
H»7»
1480

mti

1U82
11183
1<I8M
1i(8S
11186
1it87
11188
m89
1490

HIK035000 PAGE 6 1

A Ho, th«y don't. Actually, thay don't. Thata is
soma aquity in tha companias. On a book basis, thaia is
about «60 Billion oi liquidity in tha company.

S Whan you say tha managamant in plaea —

A Floor, cadra — it uas basically tha diractions uara
coming from tha Boaxd oi Dixactoxs, which includad Essam
Khashoggi bacausa ha was tha pxasldant and chia£ axacutiva
oificar. Ma was also tha chairman oi tha board.

S Hhan you talkad about tha ownars, thay convincad
tha ownaxs —

A That would ba tha ownaxs which conttitutad Zlk
Zntarnational and Triad Intarnational. ^ ,

fi If I could ask ysu, how is it you andad up in
partnaxship — is it Sa^uanea Corporation?

A Tas.

ft Did you gat to know Frasar and Hillar during tha
eoursa oi this oparation?

A Yas .

a Ara thay assantlally invastexs. is that what thay
do?

k Yas.

ft Did you hava any prior axparianca in soitwara
■mxkatias?

A Kot in markating soitwara. Z hava a lot oi
axpaxianea in eeaputaxs .

NAME:

m9i

1((92
II493
14914
1U95
1496
1497
1498
1499
1500
1501
1502
1503
1504
1505
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1507
1508
1509
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151 1
1512
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HIX035000

PAGE

fi How big a corpozation is Sequanca Cozpotation?

A Mot v«ty big.

C HOM many enployeos?

A Ther« at« no employees. That is hou big it is.

8 Hou much assets does it have?

A It has pzobably got «130,000 in assets.

Q So it cuzzently is a faizly small corpozation?

A Yes.

2 Where does your income come iron?

A There is no income right now because I have been
devoting /ty time to take care oi the problems at Triad. i
guesS/ in eiiect# yeS/ there is income. It is coming irom
Triad on a consulting type basis.

S You get some consulting fees. So the way it works
is your consulting time is billed through Sequence
Corporation?

A Yes.

2 I have put these documents together in some way I
hope is rational. I am looking at document 23. This is a
document titled ''Hinutes oi Telephonic Meeting of Board of
Directors and Shareholders of Triad American Corporation.'*
I would like to ask you a number of questions about this.
Obviously I am not going to read the whole document, but I
have a number of different questions I am interested in

asking .

iSKSK

524

Hint HIR03S000 S^l^ulLi'iV'.ViB iimV F»GE 63

1516 This deeuaant r«f*£S to both a company callad Euro

1517 and a company callad Voxtax. Do you knoM who tha principal

1518 oparatoxs oi Zuxo Comaaxeial Finanea axa? Do you know who

1519 thay axa?

1520 & Mo.

1521 fi low about Voxtax Finanea?

1522 k Ke.

1523 S You had Indieatad that you had soaa daalinss with
1S2U Voxtax thzeugh tha pazsen of Donald Fxasax> is that xight?

1525 k Yas.

1526 e Bo you knoM whathax ha is asseeiatad with Euro

1527 Cowaazeiai Finanea?

1528 k X ballava h« is.

1529 ft How about Craia Itlllaz^ is ha, to youz knowladga.

1530 assoeiatad with Vertax?

1531 k I think ha is. I don't knew fox suta.

1532 fi loM about luxe CoBaazeial?

1533 k Z dOM't think ha is.

153<i B Z think Z askad you if you knew who tha dizaetots

1535 and oiiieass imz* ei Vezt«K.

1536 k X daa't.

1537 ft Z don't knew if Z askad you about Buce Cosaaxeial?

1538 k No.

1539 ft Be yeu knew whaza that eoapany is leeatad?
1SU0 k 1 ballava it is leeatad in tha Cayaan Zslaads.

125

UMiil A'^-^-i

NAME:
15U1
15<42
15143
15(4 1«
15U5
15(46
15(47
15(48
15(49
1550
1551
1552
1553
155U
1555
1556
1557
1558
1SS9
1560
1561
1562
1563
156(4
1565

mmmm

HIR035000 — -- 'wmi^ PAGE 6U

a Lat mtt just ask you g«narally. Thara ara nou a
satias of documants I an going to shou you which start, tha
ones that appaax to ba Triad documants start in aarly Harch
and go through lata May. Uara you involved in tha planning
and draiting decisions that want into these documents?

A Ho.

2 Is your knouladge of these documents as the chief
financial officer of the corporation, or is your position--

A Yes.

Q Did you have Knowledge of these events as they were
going on,, that these loans were being made and these
financial transactions and changes in the corporation were
taking place?

A Not as thay were going on. I knew of them as thay
were completed, and I saw the documents.

2 But you were not someone who was part of the
negotiations?

A Ho.

a Just generally, do you know who it was that — and
this was a fairly major restructuring, as you have told us,
of Triad American Corporation. Do you know who ware the
principal negotiators of this deal?

A Hhat deal? Ask ma spaciiios.

a I wanted to ask a general first and now I will ask
a specific. It sounds to ma as if you can't answer it any

526

UNGUiSSra

Hint HIX035000 lllllil Htlilkq SE.U page es

1566
1567
1568
1569
1570
1571
1572
1573
157M
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1579
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1582
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158*4
1585
1586
1587
1588
1589
1590

othar way. L«t m* just go through it. and I uill ask you
sp«cifically as Z go through than.

On paga 26 — lat aa ilrst ask you, this docuaiant is
datad. as Z raoall, as of Hareh 20. and this is tha docunant
that is tha aaating oi tha sharaholdars that actually, as I
taka it, af facts tha changa in tha corporata structura. Is
that right?

k Yas.

S This is actually tha documant Mhara Essaa Khashoggi
rasigns as prasidant. chiaf aKacutiva officar. and Donald
Frasar is alactad as his suecassor?

k That is corract.

a ind that is raflactad, Z think, on tha bottom of
paga 26 and top of paga 27.

lat mm ask you about paragraph four raflactad on
paga 27. This rafars to a loan of «21 million aada by
Sarsuati Zntarnational to Adnan Khashoggi. Ara you familiar
Mith tha company. Sarsuati Zntarnational?

k Ko.

ft Oo you know Mhara it is loeatad?

k No.

ft Do you knoM who its chiaf axaeutiva officar,
sharaholdaza. any of its diraotors and offiears ara?

k Ko.

ft latar documants raflact this •21 million loan is.

WSM®

527

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 66

NAME: HIR035000

1591 in fact, threa loans that were mada on Noueraber 15, November

1592 18 and January 5. We will get to them, later.

1593 Did you have any knowledge of those loans as of the
159U time they were made?

1595 . A No.

1596 2 Now, this paragraph four refers to that loan, which

1597 it calls «21 million, from Sarsuati International to Adnan

1598 Khashoggi and also refers to an assignment from the Sarsuati

1599 to Vortex Finance. Do you know whether Donald Fraser was

1600 associated with Sarsuati International?

1601 A Don't know.

1602 Q Or, similarly^ Ernie Killer, do you know whether he

1603 was associated with Sarsuati? , ,
160U A I don't know.

1605 e Do you have any knowledge at all about the reason

1606 the loan was assigned from Sarsuati to Vortex?

1607 A No.

1608 Q This document also refers to a loan that Euro

1609 Commercial Finance was going to make, I believe, to Triad
16 10 American Corporation. Is that corxeot?

16 11 A Yes. ^ ■ . . , -«

16 12 e Has that loan made? . i

1613 A A commitment was made, and funds wer* received by

16 1<4 Triad American under that commitment.

16 15 fi Do you know the dollar amount received under that

wussw

528

UNCUSSIFIED

KXnZ HI1035000 ^--- pj^-j ^^

1616 coaaitmant?

1617 A Y«s.

1618 ft Kew Much has that?

1619 A «1, 760. 000.

1620 ft It was not th* iull aaount?

1621 I No. it was not.

1622 2 This doeumant, on paga 28. also tafats to an

1623 additional loan which as o£ tha data of this docuaant
162<4 appaars not to hava baan aada froa VortcK to Adnan

1625 Khashoggi. Oo you know whathar an agxaaaant foe that loan

1626 was avant.ually raachad?

1627 k Z don't — I hava no knowladga of it. Z hava saan a

1628 docuaant that says thay Intandad to aaka tha loan, but froa

1629 ay knowladga and fxoa tha standpoint of Triad Aaarican

1630 Corporation no such loan was avar aada.

1631 ft Could you just rapaat that?

1632 A Okay. Z baliava Z hava saan soaa docuaants that

1633 would indioata that an agraaaant was raachad to aaka an
163>« additional loan, but froa tha standpoint of Triad Aaarican

1635 Corporation and its books and racords and froa avaryona I

1636 hava askad. no such loan was avar aada.

1637 ft Thasa loans, which total «30 aillion--as of this

1638 docuaant. a total of «30 aillion — was saourad by various

1639 propartias balonging to Triad Aaarican. is that corract?
1610 A That is corract.

529

mssiREo.-. ..

MA«E: MIR03S000 1 5|<5t| a.^Ji:^'' TS 3 5 ! P»Gt 68

161*1
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1664
1665

fi Do you know th« ttason Triad Anatican agt**d to
sacur* thft •21 million loan that uas mad* to tlr . Adnan
Khashoggi?

A No.

e Do you know whathar Triad Amarican racaivad any
considaration irom Adnan Khashoggi for its agraamant to
saeura tha loan that was aada to him. apparantly parsonaXly?

A It did not.

2 It did not racaiva it. thay did not racaiva
anything?

A Ko.

S At of this tima. I think you tastifiad ha was not a
diractor of tha corporation.

A That is corcaet.

e And ha was not an officar to tha corporation?

A That is corract.

ft Ha was not an amployaa of tha corporation?

A That is corract.

ft I think I hava alraady rafarrad to paga 28. which
makas a rafaranea to an anticipatad «10 million loan which
will ba mada by Vortax to Adnan Khashoggi. Is it your
undarstanding that this agraamant also was to saeura tha
Triad — that Triad Amarican Corporation would saeura that loan
as wall?

A That was not my undarstanding. X raally don't know

UNGlASSra

530

KAHE:
1666
1667
1668
1669
1670
1671
1672
1673
167U
167S
1676
1677
1678
1679
1680
1681
1682
1683
168H
1685
1686
1687
1688
1689
1690

HIR03S000

UNCinssire

PAGE

anything about that loan other than the reference here and
another docunent that is in here some place.

S So iar as you know. Triad American was not with its
assets going to secure another *10 million, which as of this
time hadn't been loaned or an agreement hadn't been reached--

A To my knowledge, it had not.

S I am going to start racing around here now a little
bit.

The document I have before me is number 39U. At
the top of 3914 there are various dates placed on here. Do
you know when these were placed on here at the top? I could
read it out for you. Maybe I should, for the record.
''Har. 07, '86, 10:U2, Triad Anexlcan SLC': and then below
that, ''Mar.'*, then it refers to — I can't actually read it

' 'M-a-n-a-g-e-c-o-Geneva. ' '

A n-a-n-r--you cant read that stuff.

S Do you Know what those numbers are?
A You want me to guess?

e I don't want you to purely guess. Have you ever
seen anything like this before?

■ Kr. • ■ - ,'■■■'

A Sure. They look like the date, information that
goes with rapid FAX, rapid copies.

S Mould this — and, again, Z don't want you to guess,
but does this indicate it was sent to this location?

A Hho it was sent to ox fro«.

Btl^SSS®

531

UNClASSinED

KAHE: HZt035000 PAGE 70

1691 e Siaxlairly. th« top on*, which is in slightly

1692 samllcr print, do you think that a«ans who it was s«nt to oc

1693 sant froa?

169(1 k Yas. probably.

1695 fi This is a promissory nota. datad tlarch 6, 1986.

1696 whara Triad Xaariean Corporation pronisad to pay Euro

1697 Coajtareial Financa *9 million. Is this tha promissory

1698 nota — tha documant that Z hava was actually signad. Do you

1699 know whathar this was was tha promissory nota that was

1700 signad?

1701 i I think it was.

1702 fi Has this tha documant rafarrad to in tha prior

1703 documant I just talkad to you about, tha iirst paga of which
170*1 is numbar 23. whara thara is a raiaranca to tha *9 million

1705 loan? This is tha promissory nota?

1706 A Z baliava so.

1707 e This nota saams to indieata. at laast as of this

1708 data, only CI million oi tha «9 million would ba fundad.

1709 k That is right.

1710 0 Z think latar documants raflact an additional

1711 760,000 was iundad. Do you know what tha *\ million that

1712 was fundad as of this data was usad for?

1713 k Absolutaly.

17111 a What was it usad for?

1715 k Zt was usad for oparations of Triad Amarican

€32

NAHE:

•c 17 16
• 1717
1718
1719
1720
1721
1722

* 17*3
172U
172S
1726
1727
1728

■ 1729
1730
1731
1732

-■' 1733
173U
1735
1736
1737
17 38
1739
171*0

UNCUSSIFIEO

HIR035000 llS^ana M.ti^.'S 11 ij Pl^GE 71
Corporation and subsidiaries.

2 Do you know whan the additional *760,000 was
funded?

A It was probably funded within — on a weekly
basiS'-again, I am recalling this from memory, but I am sure
it was funded on a weekly basis as the bills cane due over
the next three or four weeks.

S And, again, it is your understanding they were also
used for operating expenses of Triad Corporation?

A Yes. I know they were used. If you need, I can
tell you what bills they paid.

S Uell--actually , that is interesting to ne . You know
which bills were paid?

A I can tall you exactly which bills were paid.

S What kind?

A Payroll, interest payments, it paid bills to keep
the telephones operating, the lights on and also some heat.

2 As of this date, you needed some cash, I take it?

A He were in a severe cash shortage.

2 Do you know when this note was signed?

A It was probably signed on ox about the 6th of
March, it could have been the 7th, but I am sure it was very
close to the date of the note. <

2 The document I have now has the first page number
7148, which is an agreement between Khashoggi, Vortex,

^m(^

533

KAHC

17m

17U2
17«l3
17^^
17US
I7«t6
17«l7
17M8
17119
17S0
1751
17S2
1753
17SU
1755
1756
1757
1758
1759
1760
1761
1762
1763
176<l
1765

INOU!

ii ;

HIlt035000 Wi ; V5««' t V «•- -^ ■ '-""— pjQj
Trivsrt Intaxnational and Tziad imatican.

Lat Ba ask you. wa hava talkad alraady about Adnan
Khasheggl and Vortax. Ara you faailiaz with a conpany
eallad Tsivazt Zntatnatlonal?

A No, Z aa not.

S Is it a Ttiad afilliata company?

k It Is not. to my Knowladga.

S Do you know who opacatas Tzivast?

k Ko.

5 So you knoM Mho tha sKazaheldazs wazaT

6 No.

8 Oz tha oiiioazs oz dlzaetozs?
A No.
S It aptaaxs to data it is a Cayaan Islands

eozpozation. Do you knoM if it Mas a Cayaan Islands
eozpozation?

A No. I do not.

B Do you knoM Mhaa Ttivort Zntaznatlonal was ezaatad?

A No. I don't.

e Bo rou kaoM Hhathaz Frasar had any affiliation oz
assoeiatloa Mlth Zzivatt*

a No. Z doa«t.

ft lat aa taka you thzeufh this doouaant.

Fizst, this doouaant on pafo 7ii9 aakas zafazanea
to. tha last two liaas, and Z Mill 90 thzough tha datails of

mmmii

534

KknT-

1766
1767
1768
1769
1770
1771
1772
1773
177<4
1775
1776
1777
1778
1779
1780
1781
1782
1783
17814
1785
1786
1787
1788
1789
1790

HIR035000

iiNtu^ssra

PAGE 73

thtt transaction in a second, but th« last thxa* lines of
paragraph thraa make raiaranca to tha facilitation of
certain narkating agraanants in which A.K. or its associates
would be involved? Do you know what tha reference to
certain narketing agreements is?

A I do not.

Q Pursuant to this docunent, it appears that--well,
let me ask you this first. Did you have any role in the
negotiation of this document?

A Ho. ,

B Do you know whaxa this document was negotiated?

A No.

S When did you first see this document?

A I first saw this documant whan I asked our
attorneys, who were our attorneys at tha time, for their
files on Triad American, so that I could comply with the
subpoena, and that is tha first time I saw that. It was
probably--whan was It sent?

HR. BAIO: Within tha last weak or so.
THE WITNESS: It was within tha last two weeks for
sure .

: , iu ■ 4 • K't"

BY HR. EGGLESTOH:
fi So you had not saan that before?
A I had not seen that before.
2 You have read It now?

\^i

mmm

535

KAME:
1791
1792
1793
179«»
179S
1796
1797
1798
1799
1800
1801
1802
1803

180^

180S
1806
1807
1808
1809
1810
1811
1812
1813
181<4
181S

HIR03S000 Ulllll ffali^j^ if it ''*°^ '''*
A Z hav* lookttd through it, yas.

e L*t a« ask you if my undttxstanding o£ this documant
is cotzact.

HK. BAZO: Z don't Know what that axarcisa doas.
Hata is a guy who had nothing to do with it, you ara xaading
it and you ata asking hin whathar his undatstanding comports
with yours. Zt is cattainly not avidanca. Zt is sort of
nothing.

THE HZTNESS: Z guass what you naad to do is ask
tha principals involvad.

BY nt. KGGLZSTOX:
0 Zt is kind of nothing, but ha as tha ehiaf
axaoutiv* eifiear of this ooapany. Triad Aaariean
Corporation, which was a party to this agraaaant, at laast
as Z undarstand it was party to this agraaaant — Z don't know
that it is going to hurt for ■• to ask hia what this
agraaaant eentaaplatad.

int. BAIO> zt is alaost asking for a lagal
conclusion now. Zt says what it says.

Tit HITKKSS' Z can tall you this doouaant was
nawaz pzodwoad for at laast tha accounting sida of tha
corporation, and X had aavar saaa it bafera. Zt has navar
baaa racordad on tha books, nor do Z know of anybody in tha
corporation now, outsida of Hr. Frasar, ha aay knew, but you
would hava to ask hia. Anyona alsa in tha corporation has

WlASSffl

536

NAME:
1816
1817
1818
1819

* 1820
1821
1822
1823
1824
1825
1826

' 1827
1828
1829
1830
1831
1832
1833
183M
1835
1836
1837
1838
1839
18itO

mm^m

HIR035000 --."..-'o.' ::~J^- pjcE 75

never seen this .

BY HR. EGGLESTON:

Q Let ma direct your attention to page 751. There is
a signature for the Triad American Corporation. Whose name
is that?

A Emanuel A. Floor.

2 There is a signature for Triad International
Corporation. Do you recognize that signature?

A It looks like Adnan Khashoggi. '

2 Are you familiar with his signature? What I am
trying to ascertain--

A It looks like it, but I can't say because I have
seen an ''A*' written and a couple slashes written in
sometimes. It looks like his. It looks like Khashoggi.

e I just wanted to ascertain whether you had some
familiarity with It.

A Ko, I don't. , '

e Do you know who signed on behalf of Trlvert
International? ■- ■ ~ - ^

A It looks like Don Frasax.

a And tha signature of Vortex looks, to my untrained
aye, tha saaa as tha signature foz — fezgat that.

A Khloh page? I

fi I aa on paga 750. I backed up. Does that look to
you to be Don Frasaz's signature as wall?

mmm

537

NAHC:
18141
18t42
18U3
18M<4
18115
18t<6
18U7
ISUS
1849
18S0
18S1
1852
1853
18SX
1855
1856
1857
1858
1859
1860
1861
1862
1863
1864
1865

HIX03S000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 76

A It looks lik* th« sa»« slgnatuz*.

a Hhcr* did you obtain this document in complianc*
with th« subpo«na>

A rroa th« iil«s of our attorneys.

e Mho ara thay?

A At tha tiaa it was Parsons, Bahla C Latimar.

fi Thay ara looatad in Salt Laka City?

A Yas.

e On paga 752. thara is a promissory nota datad March
6, 1986, which indicates Khashoggi is borrowing «10 million
from Vortax rinanca. Had you saan this document prior to
today?

A No.

e Do you have any knowledge as to whether this
document was aver executed?

A I do not.

S Similarly, page 753 is a promissory nota also datad
March 6. 1986. This is a promissory nota where Trivert
agrees to pay Adnan Khashoggi tlO million. Is tha first
time you saw this document also two weeks ago?

A That is right.

S You don't know whan this document was executed?

A I have no idea.

e Document SHU, when is the first time you saw this

document?

wussfffl

538

KAHE:
1866
1867
1868
1869
1870
1871
1872
1873
187U
1875
1876
1877
1878
1879
1880
1881
1882
1883
188M
1885
1886
1887
1888
1889
1890

HIR035000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 77

A I saw that documant in March, 1986.

Q This documant is datad March 6, 1986. Lat aa ask
you to look at paga 5'«6 . Thera is a signature for Sarsuati
International. Doas that appear to be Don Fraser's
sitnature?

A It looks lika it. It may not be.

Q But it is consistent with his signature you have
seen baiora?

A Yes.

2 What I want to ask you about is on page 5t«7, this
is a stock puxchasa agxaamant, datad March 15, 1985, which
makes raieranca to a loan iro« Sarsuati to Adnan Khasho^gi,
and the documant seems to indicate Khashoggi is the
controlling shareholder o£ Triad International Corporation.
Was this exhibit attached to the document that begins on
page SHU as oi the time you saw the document?

A It might have been. I can't say for sure. It may
have been.

2 I am obviously not going to take you through what
you knew about this, but on page 550, there is a signature
for Sarsuati International. Do you know whose signature
that is?

A Never seen it.

2 You don't recognize it?

Ko.

UNCLASSIFIED

539

NAME: HIR035000

1891

1892

1893

189X

1895

1896
1897
1898
1899
1900
1901

UNCLASSIFIED ... ,.

1902
1903
190)*
1905
1906
1907
1908
1909
1910
191 1
1912
1913
1911*
1915

e Pft9« SSI is A pto«is»ory not«. Do you think this
<locu««iit was attached as of tha tima you saw it?
A It nay hava baan.

e You don't hava any spacific racoHaction?
A I don't know.

8 Also SS2. datad Novaabat 18, and 553. which is tha
nota datad January 5. 1986.

A It nay hava baan. I raoall at that tiaa I knaw
thara was aora than ona loan that aada up tha •2 1 aillion.
So I probably had soaa knowladga . I don't racall whathai
thasa spaoiiic doouaants wara attachad or not.

fi Oo you hava any knowladga as to tha usa to which
Hr. Adnan Khashoggi put tha «21 aillion?
A Ko.

a Do you know whathar any of this ♦21 aillion was
usad to support tha oparating axpansas of Triad Aaarican
Corporation?

A It was not.
S You know it was not?
A I know that it was not.

S lat aa diract your attantion to paga 562. This is
a rafaranca to a 89 aillion loan froa luro Coaaarcial to
Triad Aaarioan Corporation, right?
A Yas.
a This loan, as 1 racall, aakas a rafaranca at tha

UNCIASHD

540

MAKE:
1916
1917
1918
1919
1920
1921
1922
1923
19214
1925
1926
1927
1928
1929
1930
1931
1932
1933
193U
1935
1936
1937
1938
1939
19140

UNCLASSIFIE!

HIR035000 Ul lULif aULIBI ll_L« PAGE 79
bottom o£ pag« 562 to th« puiposa for which tha loan will be
us«d. Uh«n is tha first time you saw this docunant? Did
you know about this documant as of narch> 1986?

A Yas.

2 Is this tha loan of which only 41.7 nillion was
disbuzsad?

A That is right. ''"'''' "^ -•■• '

Q So tha rafaranca at tha bottom of 562 to 14.5
million baing usad to ratira payablas of TAG and tha other
I . 5 having to do with tha construction loan, at laast tha
<4 . 5 to closa tha construction loan was navar iundad by--

A That is right.

S Of tha 1.7, siK million, I guass, I taXa it that
was usad to ratira payablas of TAG?

A Yas.

Q Now, documant 67 I am back to. This is a docunant
antitlad, ' ' Irravocabla ProKy'* at tha top. Hhan is tha
first tima you saw this? Wara you awara of this at tha time
it was axacutad?

A I don't racall whan tha first tima is I saw it.

e This is not a documant you only saw within tha last
two waaks? This is a dooumant you think you have only seen
during tha last two waaks?

A I may hava saan it bafora than. I don't ramambar.

2 Just ona othar question about this documant.

541

NAnE =

19141

19(42
1943
19Mt»
19145
19U6
19U7
19148
19149
1950
1951
1952
1953
19511
1955
1956
1957
195S
1959
19«0
1961
1962
1963
196(4
1965

HIR035000

UNCLASSiriEO

PAGE 80

because it otharwls* speaks ior itself. I think I asked you
this, but do you know what relationship Ivan Butgess had to
VetteK Finance?

No, I don't.

Have you ever set Ivan Burgess?

I think I mat him once.

Do you know where that took place?

Yes.

Where?

In the Cayaan Islands.

Do you know where in the Cayaan Islands?

Yes.

Hhere?

At Euro Coaaer«lal Bank.

Hhen was that?

This is at Don Frater's wedding.

Hhen was Sen Fraser aazxied?

Deoeabez 31.

Deeeakes 31 —

'•6.

Deeaaber 31 •£ '96? .

Yas.

B14 you knew his wlis feaioze?

Knew his wl<«r

Yas. 0i4 you know tha weaan ha aarriad?

UNClASSiFlEO

542

KAHE-

1966
1967
1968
1969
1970
197 1
1972
1973
1974
1975
1976
1977
1978
1979
1980
1981
1982
1983
198(t
1985
1986
1987
1988
1989
1990

HIR035000

UNCUSSIHED ,.

GE 81

A Yas.

2 Whaz* is sha izom?

A I baliava sha Is from England.

2 So you think you mat him at tha wadding?

A Yas. Wall, I think I mat him, I passad by thaiz
oificas, I sau thaiz oificas, and that is whaza I mat him.

Q Thosa aza tha oificas of Voztax?

A Ko, tha off leas of Euzo Bank. ii^!>'f*

2 Doas Don Fzasaz own Euzo Bank? Is ha affiliatad
with than? . v ,' ■ ?. ...^ • -^ *" -. .•

A ^a is affiliatad with tham.

Q Is Eznia Hillaz affiliatad with Euzo Bank?

A I don't think so.

2 Buzgass, do you think ha is affiliatad with Euro
Bank? ' '"*' '■» " a

A Yas. Ha has an offica thaza. so--I don't know what
his position is.

2 Did you do any buslnass whlla you waza in Cayman
Islands? " -' " ••^ . .'J ' •' '

A Yas.

t*f

2 Ralatad to Tziad Amazioan Cozpozation?
A Yas.

ft Hhat kind of buslnass did you do? ^' '
A I was on tha phona about six to aight houzs a day
taking caza of pzoblams in Salt Laka and azound tha U.S.

WNcmriE

543

NAHE:
1991
1992
1993
1994
1995
1996
1997
1998
1999
2000
2001
2002
2003
200M
200S
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
201 1
2012
2013
201U
201S

HIR035000 ■2ja3»! d',^^.,*: 'J s .^ PAGE 82

S Did you do any financial transactions while you
wars down thaca?

A No. Spant a lot oi nonay.

e On hotals?

A Personal nonay on hotals and maals. a lot of
snorkaling. That probably shouldn't ba on tha record.

e I have docusant <42S. The docuitent begins on >425
and is titled ''Triad American Corporation Haiver and
Unanimous Hritten Consent of Shareholders.''

Let ae direct your attention to pag^ *«26. The last
''whereas'* clause stakes a reference to an additional «10
Million U.S. loan to Adnan Khashoggi. and then it says ''for
utilization in connection with aarketing activities to be
carried out by Adnan Khashoggi directly or through a
controlled entity, which entity sight ba Trivert
International, which activities axe deemed to TAC.

So you knew what marketing activities were referred
to haze?

A No. No.

e X take it this «10 million loan is the loan to
which you previously zaferrad you have seen mentioned in
documents but you don't know whathez this loan actually took
plaea?

A From tha standpoint of Tziad Amaziean Corporation,
we have no evidence that it did.

544

NAME:
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021
2022
2023
202<t
2025
2026
2027
ad 28

JIMSIOED, •;•;..,;:.,

HIR03S000
2
Coipoiation which would indicate it actually took place?

A And I have asked the Khashoggis and Mr. Ftaser if
this loan was ever made< and they said no.

2 They have actually said it was not made?
A They claim it was not made.
2 Who did you say you asked, you asked the
Khashoggis?

A I asked Essam Khashoggi, I asked Emanuel Floor, I
asked Tatiq Kadri, who were the board of directors at the
time. I asked Don Fraser. They all said no.

HR. EGGLESTOM: Oii the record. [''
'' ." * * (Discussion oif the record.] " ^ .""

mmmii

545

vmmii

HIR035000 IBKy'l fi VV^8_hL jt*GE 8<4

RPTS DOTSOH
DCHK PARKER

BY MR. EGGLESTON:

S I have here a number, 1233. 1233 appears to be a
draft of an agreement. Uhen is the first time you saw this.
if you recall?

A I don't Know if I have ever seen this draft other
than when ua produced the documents, but it looks like some
documents I would have seen around narch--or excuse me. Nay,
April or May.

2 Yes. probably uhen this was all--

A Yes.

Q Let me just ask you whether you have any knowledge
of some of the deletions. Paragraph A on page 1233 has a
sentence--the second sentence has been marked out. ''He may
also have been a member of the Board of Directors of certain
subsidiary corporations of Triad American corporations . ' '

Do you know was Fraser ever appointed a member of
the Board of Directors of any of--

A No. Wall, Z know that ha wasn't.

2 You know he was not?

A That is right.

2 Was Earnest Millar aver appointed a member of the
Board of any of the subsidiary corporations?

A No.

546

NAME :
20SU
205S
2056
2057
2058
2059
2060
2061
2062
2063
206U
2065
2066
2067
2068
2069
2070
207.1
2072
2073
20714
2075
2076
2077
2078

\immm

HIRO3S000 "^''jLiiOiJsrfrii'**^^ ®^

2 Ivan Burgess?

A No.

2 599. This document, the first page of which is
numbered 599, is a collateral assignment. I have only one
question about this, and that is on page 606. It reflects a
transaction, a transfer of shares of stock from Triad to
Sarsuati International on March 10, 1986. Then immediately.
apparently from Sarsuati International to Vortex, do you
know the reason it was transferred from Triad to Sarsuati,
then to Vortex, and not directly to Vortex.

A No.

2 Did you have any role in the preparation of these?

A No, I did not.

2 But this is a transfer of Triad International stock
as opposed to Triad American stock--I'm sorry. It is a
transfer of Triad American stock by Triad International to
Trivert .

A I have no knowledge of that.

2 On page 72. the only question I have on this, the
first pa9« of which reads, ''stock pledge agreement,'* page
78. it is signed by Vortex Finance SA by — and does the
signature appear to be the signature of Donald Fraser?

A Yes. It looks like it.

2 Vou are not certain, but it appears.

A Yes.

547

NAME :
2079
2080
2081
2082
2083
208(4
2085
2086
2087
2088
2089
2090
2091
2092
2093
2094
2095
2096
2097
2098
2099
2100
210 1
2102
2103

HIR035000

mm hnm^ii

AGE

2 This IS a document which reads ''Unconditional and
Continuing Guarantee'' across the top. Let me Dust ask you,
'•Does Triad American Corporation have outside auditors as
uell as your own internal staff?

A Ue have had, yes.

2 In 1986 did you have outside auditors?

A Ue had no one doing actual work for us in 1986.

2 In 1985, did you have outside auditors?

A Yes.

2 What is the reason you had outside auditors in
1985, but none in 1986?

A We didn't pay them in 1985.

2 So they ceased working for you?

A Uell, not exactly. They just won't issue the 1985
audit reports until we paid them the fees, nor would they
complete the audit. However, we still had a relationship
with them where we could ask then questions if they were
questions .

2 Who were the outside auditors?

A Arthur Anderson.

2 You worked with their office in Salt Lake City?

A Yes .

2 Did they ever complete the audit report for 1985--

A Ko. > ■

2 --and certify it?

oHWssra

548

KAHE

210t4
2105
2 106
2107
2 108
2 109
2110
2111
2112
21 13
21 1M
2115
2116
21 17
21 18
21 19
2120
2121
2122
2123
212U
2125
2126
2127
2 128

HIR035000

No.

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 87

2 Was Arthur Andarson working as your outside
auditors in 198i4?

A Yes.

2 Did they do a certified report in 198'(?

A Yes.

2 I take it no report was done for 1986 or at least
none has been dona yet.

A Ho.

2 Will one be done?

A I doubt it.

2 I don't think I have any other questions about
this.

If you can look at page ■42. page («2 is a signature
page for this document dated March 20, 1986. Who has signed
on behalf of Triad Anerican Corporation?

A It looks like Be.

2 Is that you?

A That is a*.

e Okay, senior viea president.

Page H3 . obviously the signature of Triad American
Corporation is you. Who has signed on behalf of Triad
International Cotpozation. if you know?

A It looks like Essam Khashoggi's signature.

2 Essam?

UNCLASSIFIED

549

MAHE :
2129
2130
2 13 1
2 132
2 133
2 134
2135
2136
2137
2 138
2139
21U0
2 mi
21U2
2 143
2 144
2145
2 146
2 147
2 148
2 149
2150
2151
2152
2153

U8j

PAGE

HIR035000

A Essara, E-S-S-A-M.

2 I don't believe this document at least gives his
position with Triad International Corporation. Do you knou
what position he had with Triad International Corporation?

A No, I don't.

2 This is Document Number 86. First, let me :ust ask
you. At the top in the address section, there is a
reference to Fraser, Millar and Burgess, care of Jeffrey W.
nangum, listing an address in Salt Lake City. Who is Mr.
Hangum .

A Mr. Hangum is an attorney in Salt Lake City.

2 Do you knou which firm he is with?

A Yes.

2 Which firm is that?

A Prince, P-R-I-H-C-E, Yeates, Y-E-A-T-E-S and G-E-L-
D-Z-A-H-L-E-R.

2 In the middle of this document--I will just read
this sentence: ''The claims hereby waived are those based
on possible breaches of fiduciary duty as a result of the
Vortex directors hereafter taking otherwise lawful actions
to cause Triad American Corporation to honor and comply with
any agreements, notes, instruments or undertakings to which
it is a party, in connection with a <2 1 million loan
previously made to Triad American Corporation by Sarsuati
International, in which the rights of Sarsuati had been

550

NAME:
21514
2155
2156
2157
2158
2159
2160
2161
2162
2163
2164
2165
2166
2167
2168
2169
2170
2171
2172
2173
217U
2175
2176
2177
2178

HIR035000

ONWSSlfiED

assigned to Vortex, and in connection with a «9 million loan
iron Uro to Triad American Corporation to be made at or
about the same time as this letter is executed, and a $10
million loan anticipated to be made by Vortex to Adnan
Khashoggi and to be guaranty by Triad American
Corporation . ' '

Let me just ask you: this makes reference to a loan
made in the amount of *2 1 million Triad American Corporation
by Sarsuati International. Has there ever a loan made by
Sarsuati to the Triad American Corporation?

A Ho.

C There was a loan made to Adnan Khashoggi in the
amount o£ %2^ million secured by Triad American?

A I believe three loans were made.

2 Which totaled «2 1 million.

A Yes.

2 This reference to the «21 million loan made by
Triad American Corporation —

A Is incorrect.

2 --i« incorrect.

A That is incorrect.

2 Hhen is the first time you saw this document, if
you recall?

A I probably saw it in March.

2 Around the time that it was executed.

UNCLASSIFIED

551

HAKE

2179
,, 2180
2181
2 182
2183
218U
2185
2186
2187
2188
2189
2190

2192

2193
.> 2194
2195
... 2 196
2197
2198
2199
2200
2201
2202
2203

HIR035000

UNCUSSIFIED

PAGE 90

A I don't recall a specific date, though.

2 This document I find a little confusing. This is a
document in uhich Triad American Corporation waves claims it
might have as against Vortex directors on behalf of a loan
uhich actually Triad American did not receive; is that
correct?

A That is correct.

2 I suppose it did receive part of the «9 million
loan which is referred to.

A Yes, it did.

2 4s to the *\0 million loan, that was also not a
loan which Triad American Corporation was going to receive.

A That is right.

MR. BAIO: This documentation talks about it being
anticipated, made.

MR. EGGLESTON: Right. I should--

THE WITNESS: Which wa have no reference to it ever
having been made by —

riR. EGGLESTOH: Do you know the reason why this
document was executed?

THE WITNESS: Yes. I think it was executed in
conjunction with the Vortex, and your own people disengaging
from the management and wanting to protect themselves from
any liability which they may sea coming because of their
failure to fund additional monies to Triad Corporation.

UNCLASSIFIED

552

Hunz

220U
2205
2206
2207
2208
2209
2210
221 1
2212
2213
221it
2215
2216
2217
2218
2219
2220
2221
2222
2223
22214
2225
2226
2227
2228

HIR035000

UNCUSSIFIED

PAGE 91

BY MR. EGGLESTOK:

Q Did you hava any rola in drafting this agreement?

A Ho, I didn't. ■

2 Co you Know the reason it makes the mistake about
the *2 1 million loan being made to Triad American
Corporation?

A No.

2 Let me just ask you, I wonder, from your last
response, the response about the disengagement, this may not
be significant, but the dates seem slightly off. The date
of this is March 20, 1986. Had they started--for example, X
think the very first document I showed you in this docuifent
stack, the board of directors meetings where Fraser was
actually elected, was dated March 20.
Had they started to--

A I thought it was actually March 6 was the first.

2 There were many documents dated March 6. I think
that the Board of Directors meeting may have actually taken
place on March 20.

A Hay have .

2 Had the disagreements started to your recollection
by March 20?

A Yes.

2 So they started fairly early on.

A I would say that the disagreements between

UNCUSSiFIED

553

UNCLASSIFIED

HIR035000 mini nililll ll ll page 92

management and the new people started before they came.

e Do you know how long this decision to bring in
other people to do the management had been under
negotiation?

A Ho , I do not .

2 How soon or how early prior to they came had the
disagreements begun?

A I am assuming that because there was a very hostile
attitude the day they walked in.

2 Did you know Fraser, prior to the time--

A No.

2 --prior to the time ha walked in the door
essentially? It must have been around March 6, I suppose.

A Ho.

2 Do you know Miller or Burgess, the other Killer or
Burgess .

A Ho.

2 I just have a couple left, and I will go quickly.
1120, this is a document which appears at least to be, the
top indicates it is based on negotiations of April 21, 1986.
Did you attend that meeting?

A No.

2 Do you know who attended that meeting?

A No . i

2 Do you know whan you first saw this?

554

HAnC:

2255
2256
2257
2258
2259
2260
2261
2262
2263
226U
2265
2266
2267
2268
2269
2270
2271
2272
2273
227M
2275
2276
2277
2278

HIR035000 <UI « Vb>3 ^W%^>:! Kiabr PAGE 93

A I probably first saw this at the production of
documents from our attorneys within the last two weeks.

2 Do you know who prepared this?

A No. I don't. I have never seen identification on
here except there is a reference on the last page to 8919-0.
which looks suspiciously like an attorney's number they
would have on their word processing machine.

S2 They have been known to do that. This makes a
reference at the very beginning in paragraph A on page 1120
to ''Vortex shall have no obligations to fund the S10
million loan or anymore of the *9 million loan. ' '

The *9 million loan was the loan out of which
approximately «1, 760, 000 had been funded. Is that correct?

A Yes.

Q The other reference to a *10 million loan, do you
know which loan that is referring to?

A No.

e And is it your understanding that the reason that
the rest of the 9 million was not funded was the management
difficulties had arisen and Fraser and Killer were leaving
the company?

A That is correct.

e 9^t<. This is a document which is titled at the
top — I will wait until you have it in front of you.

I am looking at 9>(<4. This document, in the end of

555

HIR035000

PAGE

it. 951, 52, 53 through 58 are a ser«Ba» o£ signature pages.
Is it your understanding these were eventually signed by alJ
the parties when this uas executed?

A I would presume so, although I have not seen all
of the signatures. I would have to go through here. It
looks as if on subsequent pages people have signed on
different pages .

fi Let me direct your attention--the only real question
I have about this document is on page 9146, the paragraph
listed M, "'reimbursement and payment of expenses.'' It
makes reference to Triad reimbursing Vortex Uro for various
expenses, and the last sentence reads as follows = ''Such
fees and expenses shall not include any fees or expenses
incurred by Vortex Uro in connection with a recent agreement
entered into in April of 1986 by Vortex to advance to Adnan
Khashoggi . ' '

Do you have any reference to the apparent agreement
that is made reference to in this document?

A Mo .

e The other agreenent by Vortex to advance Adnan
Khashoggi *10 million was dated March 10, 1986. Do you know
if this is a different agreement?

A I have no idea. - -' f ■'' '

2 You have no knowledge of this at all?

A No.

u % \ ri i -^ ij s

556

HAME:
230t4
2305
2306
2307
2308
2309
2310
2311
2312
2313
231*4
2315
2316
2317
2318
2319
2320
2321
2322
2323
232(4
2325
2326
2327
2328

UNtUSSIFIEB .<

HIR035000 limi.! M.^adlB EL.U PAGE 95

e You had indicated beiota. as to the other S10
nillion you had asked various people ii the loan had
actually been made. Have you asked anybody whether this
loan has been nade?

A I have not differentiated between two different *10
million loans. I just asked if the *10 million loan had
been made, and the answer I got was, no.

e So you don't know whether this is referring to the
same loan as the other, or if it is different?

A It may be different, but again, it may be the same.
I found inconsistencies in some of the documents.

fi Page 818. Actually, I am only going to ask a
question about the top page. Mho is Hark Rinehart?

A nark Rinehart is an attorney for the law firm of
Parsons, Sehle £ Latimer. They, at this point in time, were
doing the work for Triad, or represented Triad.

2 And the documents beginning at 8<45. they ware
clipped in my version —

HR. BAIO: 8U5? < :

HR. EGGLKSTON: SUS. I will ask him about 8M8.
This is another document that appears to be made during the
ooursa of the disengagement. Let me just ask you whether
tha following is a mistake as well.

The last sentence makes reference to ''with respect
to the amendment which has been funded, however, TAC agrees

wmmm

557

ssife „

HIR03S000 1 £l^li!L.nUV9IB ■*■»■ PAGE 96
that It shall be repaid according to the terms of the
promissory note previously executed by TAG, although the
parties acknowledge and agree that only the actual amendment
funded plus interest shall be repaid''.

X assume the reference to TAG agrees it shall be
repaid, it must refer to--

THE WITNESS: The «1, 760, 000.
BY HR. EGGLESTON:
2 Yes. But it also must refer to Uro, not to TAG.
A Just a minute .

Triad American Gorporation is to pay Uro the
amounts because Triad American has —
2 The ''T'* refers to Uro?
A Yes, let ma see it just to make sure.

It is to Uro and that ''t'* refers to Uro shall be
repaid. The note is to Uro.

2 887, it is titled, ''Agreement,'' at the top.
Paragraph 1, uhich starts at the bottom of page 887 and
continues to the top of 888, provides that Triad-Khashoggi
is going to sell substantially all the assets of Triad
American Corporation, and this document is signed--
A The other page.

e On page 889 there are signatures. The signature at
the bottom. Triad International Corporation by managing
director, does it appear to you to be the signature of Adnan

mmm

558

KAHE
23S4
2355
2356
2357
2358
2359
2360
2361
2362
2363
236<4
2365
2366
2367
2368
2369
2370
2371
2372
2373
2374
2375
2376
2377
2378

HIR03SOOO S'l^'l^j' a: V v V'-<!** Si

A yes. It could be.

2 At the top of 890 there is a signature for managing
director. Do you recognize that signature?

A Essaa Khashoggi, it looks like.

2 Is that a signature--I an sorry. You had better
leave that in front of hin. Also Adnan Khashoggi is
signing. Is he signing on behalf of Elk International
Corporation or is he signing on his oun behalf? I guess he
is signing on his oun behalf.

A I guess. I don't knou. I would have to read the
document to see if it calls for his signature.

2 Actually he is a named party on the document.

Do you know whether this agreement was executed? I
am sorry--do you knou whether this agreement was put into
effect? Did Triad American Corporation begin to sell the
assets of Triad American Corporation?

A To date it has not sold any of those assets, but in
terms of continuing the function of the companies, certain
assets will have to be sold.

fi But as of nou, at least, it has not yet, or
obviously nou--

A As of today, no.

HR. BAIO : I think you axe construing this
agreement as an agreement to sell.

559

NAME:
2379
2380
2381
2382
2383
238U
2385
2386
2387
2388
2389
2390
2391
2392
2393
239(4
2395
2396
2397
2398
2399
2U00
2401
2M02
21403

HIR035000

ICLASSIRED

PAGE 98

Maybe it is an agreement upon the sale there will
be a certain distribution of assets, but I am not sure this
is an agreement to sell. I an. looking at it--

HR. EGGLESTOM: I get you. So what you are
suggesting is that this may be an agreement that li it is
sold they have an obligation.

MR. BAIQ: It may be. That is certainly an
interpretation that can be given to the document.
BY MR. EGGLESTON:

2 Do you know when you iirst saw this document?

A No.

Q Do you know whether it was near the 23rd oi May or
whether it was closer to two weeks ago?

A It was probably closer to two weeks ago.

2 I just have a couple more questions. Let me ask
you whether you know of soma other names, whether you know
some other people, and when I say, no, I am asking whether
you have met them, not whether you have read their names in
the newspapers during the last two months or so.

Do you know a nan by the name of Oliver North?

A Ko .

2 Do you know a man by the name of Admiral
Poindexter ?

A No.

S Do you know a man by the name of Mr. Ghorbanifer?

mmm

560

NIHE

2<40i4
2405
2K06
2U07
2K08
2X09
2U10
2U11
2(412
2it13
2<41U
21(15
21116
2<417
2U18
21419
2(420
2(421
2(422
2(123
2U2(4
2(425
2U26
2(427
2(428

IHWSSlFiEB- ■■

HIX035000

& Ko.

fl Oo you Know a man by th« naa* o£ Rlehazd Sacord?

A No.

fi Robart Gadd.

A No.

S Richazd Gadd. Do you know Robazt Button.

A No.

e Oo you know a guy by tha nana of John Singlaub?

A No.

2 Do you know Cyrus Hashl%i?

A No.

fi Hillazd tuckaz?

A No.

fi Thomas Cllnas?

A No.

fi Edwin Hilson?

A No.

fi Hllliata Langton?

A No.

fi Hava you had any Involvanant In arms tzansactions?

A No.

fi Hava you had any involvamant in shipping natarial

A No.

fi Do you hava any knowladga izoa youz aaploymant at

561

KAHE

2^29

2M30
2U31
2U32
2M33
2((3(t
2i«35
21436
2437
21138
2U39
2i|<t0
2<4it1
2it<(2
2U43
2I4 4U
2<m5
2(|i(6
2l|ll7
2(148
24119
2450
2451
2452
2453

HII1035000 " - — — - « i^ ^-;> s i SLiEJ PAGE 100

Triad iaazican Cozpozatlon oi azaa shipmants to Izan?

A No.

fi Oz funding of tha contrasj

A No.

S Oz in Contzal Aaarica?

A No.

fi I had savad this foz tha and and lat na just go
thzough this. I wilj. not zaad this whola thing. I want to
ba suza you pzoducad avarything you uaza askad to produca
pursuant to tha — I aB sozzy. I hava ona noza stack of stuff.
This Mill just taka a sacond. You pzoducad. pursuant to the
subpoana, a nuabaz of othaz docuaants zalating to othaz
tzansactions> all of Mhlch waza substantially aarliaz than
this.

A Yas.

e Tha fizst is nuabaz —

A Lat ■• tall you why thay uaza pzoducad.

fi Hhy don't you tall aa why thay uaza producad?

A Thay waza pzoducad bacausa tha sacuzity which was
givan on tha Uzo nota. and also on tha Voztax nota, tha
sacuzity that was givan waza sacond lians against vazious
buildings that subsidias of Tziad Asazican Corporation
oim«d.

In oxdaz to gat thosa lians. wa had to go back to
tha original landazs and gat thaiz — in most oasas gat thaiz

.\»

I'', i

-■ *».?l»?i^v V »• "J

?:a

562

IllflSSIfiED

KAHE: HIR035000 ¥.1! 2 'S LS 3_r^l> U 1 I ilbV PAGE 101

2USU consent to put the liens on and what you see here are the

2U55 notes that represent the first liens, the first mortgages on

2456 those various buildings.

2457 Since it impacted, it was related to those
2'458 documents, ue produced them.

2459 2 Let me take a look at them. My basic question,

2>460 uhen I was done, was why did you give these to us?

246 1 A That is why.

2462 S Let me take a look at them and see if there is any

2463 question I want to ask about each of them individually. The

2464 first is Number 669, 664, 639, 644, 685, 607, 674, 83-83

2465 seems to be out of order.

2466 Why don't I take a second. Let me just go through

2467 the subpoena with you, and then I will be through with you.

2468 There is an attachment to the subpoena, which is a subpoena

2469 duces tecum. I will not read everything since it will be

2470 part of the record.

247 1 Paragraph 1 makes reference to all materials

2472 relating to arms transactions and lists a number of

2473 different individuals and corporations. I take it you have

2474 supplied everything that Triad American Corporation has with

2475 respect to that.

2476 A Triad American has nothing with respect to that.

2477 2 ''B*' refers to hostages. I take it you have

2478 nothing with respect to that.

563

NAHE
2H79
21(80
2>481
2^82
2K83

2'48>4

2U85
2>486
2U87
21488
2489
2>490
2491
2X92
2>493
2U9U
2U9S
2M96
21497
2>498
2>«99
2500
2501
2502
2503

mmmB

PAGE 102

HIR03S000

A Nothing.

2 ''c'' anti-government forces in Nicaragua.

A Ue have nothing.

2 Paragraph 2, I take it, is substantially part of
this subpoena that you responded to in producing all the
naterial that you produced today, uhich is all materials
related to Adnan Khashoggi and various individuals .

I guess there is another section that probably
deals with financial transactions and loans as well. You
have searched the files and produced everything uhich
relates to paragraph 2.

A That is correct.

Q Paragraph 3 refers to passports, appointment books,
calendars or diaries that relate to Adnan Khashoggi from
1984 to 1985.

A Ue have none of those.

e Paragraph 5, documents sufficient to identify all
bank accounts and all telephone numbers used by respondent,
uhich is —

A He produced those.

Q — which are documents you produced to us in the
first 22 pages or so. Copies of all materials provided to
other law enforcement agencies. I take it you have nothing

in response to that.

WSMm

564

250U
2505
2506
2507
2508
2509
2510

251 1
2512
2513
2514
2515
2516
2517
2518
2519
2520

252 1
2522
2523
252(4
2'525
2526
2527
2528

HIR035000

mumm

PAGE 103

2 Because you indicated to ne you had not been
contacted by other law eniotcenent agencies.

A That is correct.

2 All statements, check deposit slips for accounts in
Saudi Arabia, Switzerland--! guess you have responded with
documents relating to the one Cayman Islands account. There
is a second Cayman Islands account.

A That is right.

2 Do you have anything--

A Ue have not received any documents a'^'^at account.
We just recently opened it up and the reason we opened it
up is an account--ue have had cash given to us for
operations. It has been given to Triad Energy Corporations,
and it is being funded out of the Cayman Islands as part of
the purchase--it was originally a purchase agreement between
Sky High Resources and Triad Energy, who purchased the
energy assets . ' '

As part of that agreement, there was some cash to
be funded to Triad for that. It was to go to Triad Energy,
so we sat up an account fox that cash to coma into Triad
Energy . ' .> ■

fi How recently was that account established?

A It was probably Mithin the last month, maybe within
the last two months. Very recently.

e I just wasn't sure I quite understood. Sky High is

iiUSSffi

565

KAHE
2529
2530
2531
2532
2533
253(4
2535
2536
2537
2538
2539
25>40
25<41
25<42
25(43
25(4U
25U5
2546
25147
25(48
25(49
2550
2551
2552
2553

HIR035000

mmm ^

AGE 10(4

buying part of Triad Energy?

A It was going to buy the assets of Triad Energy,
which is the stock--that was challenged by some of the
creditors of Triad, various entities of Triad. A temporary
restraining order was issued and about two weeks ago the
parties to that agreement decided not to do it.

2 Is that account now empty?

A I believe it is .

8 Did you have to return the cash to Sky High?

A Ko . He used it. They are now a creditor.

fi Do you know who--Sky High is a corporation?

A Yes.

Q Do you know who the shareholders of Sky High are?

A No.

2 Do you know who the officers are?

A Ko.

fi Do you know who the operating officers of Sky High
axe?

A I think the President is Ron Philips. But that is
as Buch as I know.

fi Does Don Fxaser have anything to do with Sky High?

A I b«llev« he owns stock In it. I have read it in
the paper.

fi Burgess?

A I have no idea.

566

NAME:
2S5U
2555
2556
2SS7
2558
2559
2560
2561
2562
2563
25614
2565
2566
2S67
2568
2569
2570
2571
2572
2573
2574
2575
2576
2577
2578

> » jn <, yo •

i i »• "i Wat C*^'0»«"«T«T^,

HIR035000 ^ " •— ->' PAGE 105

fi I suppose just to be complete, when you get those,
ii you uould send those to us , I would appreciate it.

The organization chart--you have provided us with
various information. Ue appreciate that. That was
paragraph 7. Paragraph 8, documents suiiicient to identify
all foreign and some subsidiaries, affiliates and various
other things.

Ue have gone over the list of bank accounts . I
take it that substantially identifies the affiliates,
associates in various subsidiaries of Triad American?

A I thought we sent you a list. They are all U.S.
corporations .

C I don't think ue got a list of the affiliates.
nR. BAIO: I will double check on that.
KR. EGGLESTOK: Okay.

THE HITNESS: There are no former affiliates.
BY HR. EGGLESTOK:
2 Paragraph 9 records, of all financial transactions,
loans involving Khashoggl — you have produced a number of
docuitents xalatad to that. I take it the documents you
produced are all the documents .
A All the documents .

fi All material relating to so-called International
marketing efforts--

A Ha have nothing.

567

KANE

2579
2580
2581
2582
2583
2584
2585
2586
2587
2588
2589
2590

HIR035000 - PAGE 106

2 And I have nothing further.

MR. VAH CLEVE: With your indulgence, I would like
a brief conference with my colleague.

THE HITKESS: Sure.

[Discussion off the record. ]

HR. VAK CLEVE: Back on the record.

I want to acknowledge the fact that you have been
here for sone four hours this norning, and as you have
testified, you have had a lot of other obligations. I want
to thank you for your appearance. I have no questions.

[Whereupon, at 1:15 p.n./ the deposition was
adjourned. ]

568

DEPOSITION OF HENRY SCOTT MILLER
Thursday, August 6, 1987

U.S. House of Representatives,

Select Committee to Investigate Covert

Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:00 a.m.,
in Room 2237, Rayburn House Office Building, Thomas Fryman
(Staff Counsel of House Select Committee) presiding.

On behalf of the House Select Committee: Thomas Fryman,
Staff Counsel; and Kenneth R. Buck, Assistant Minority
Co'unsel.

On behalf of the Senate Select Committee: Henry J. Flynr
Investigator.

MO-

..__-(»-

569

NAME: HIR218000

UNCIASSIHED

PAGE

RPTS HAZUR
DCHH 2UIKTER0

Uheieupon,
HENRY SCOTT HILLER
having bean iirst duly sworn, was called as a witness
herein, and was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATIOH ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COHHITTEE
BY HR. FRYMAN:
Q Okay, on the record now.

Uould you state your full name for the record?
A Henry Scott Miller.

Who is your employer, Mr. Killer?

Goldman Sachs .

And where are you located?

85 Broad Street, New York.

Uhat is your position with Goldman Sachs?

I am in the investment banking business.

Do you have a title?

I am a vice president.

How long have you been located at the office in New

Q
A
2
A
Q
A
2
A
2

Tork?
2
A

One year.

And prior to going to New York, where were you

located?

A In Philadelphia.

UNCIASSIHED

570

NAHE:
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27
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Ml
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MS
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MS
M9
50

HIR2 18000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 2

2 Also investnent banking in Philadelphia?

A In security sales .

2 How long where you employed by Goldman Sachs in
Philadelphia?

A Approximately--! guess nine years ten years--roughly .

2 Have you been employed by Goldman Sachs a total of
approximately 11 years?

A Yes .

2 Where did you obtain your undergraduata degree?

A Vlilliams College.

2 What year?

A "71 .

2 And did you attend graduate school?

A Yes.

2 Where?

A Wharton.

2 And did you receive a degree.

A Yes .

2 And what was that?

2 And what year was that?
A '77.

2 And did you go to Goldman Sachs after obtaining your
H. B. A. --immediately after obtaining--
A I went to Goldman Sachs in '76.

UNClASSra

071

KAHE:

51
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S3
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614

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7M
75

HIR2 18000

UNCLASSIFIED

2 Hhiie you^a student at Wharton?

Were
A Ho. I completed ny course work. I ua5--iiy degree

came in *77 so I had to finish ny paper or whatever--mas ters

paper, or whatever.

2 Have you served in the nilitary?

A Mo.

2 During the period between college and graduate
school ?

A Uh-huh.

2 Uhere did you work?

A Morgan Guaranty Trust.

Q In Ken York?

A Yes .

2 And was that fro« '71 to •7«»?

A No, iron '72 — through •7U.

2 And what did you do with Horgan Guaranty?

A I was in consulting group called ''Client
Finances . ' '

2 Hhat did that work involve?

A Involved consulting with companies on cash
management.
. ~ 2 Hhat is your date of blzth?

A 9-7-i«9.

2 And your social security numbaz?

UNCLASSra

572

NAME:
76
11
78
79
80
81
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8U
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HIR2 18000

UNCLASSm

PAGE U

2 Have you yourself, Mr. Hiller, ever contributed any
money to any individual organization for any purpose related
to Nicaragua or Central America?

A No.

2 Have you ever been involved in any way in raising
funds for others for such purposes?

A No.

2 Do you knou an individual naned John Hirtle?

A Yes .

2 That is--

A H-I-R-T-L-E.

2 Who is Hr. Hirtle?

A He is a security salesman at Goldman's Philadelphia
office .

2 And you worked with him in the Philadelphia office?

A Yes.

2 Did he report to you?

A No.

2 Uhat was youz working relationship? Were you in the
sane area?

A He was my partner.

2 Uhat does that mean?

A Ha shared accounts and split compensation.

2 Do you know an individual named Clyde S-L-E-A-S-E?

A Yes.

UNCLASSIFIED

HAHE
101
102
103

10>4

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106
107
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109
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1 1 1
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113
IIU
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1 16
1 17
1 18
1 19
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122
123
12i«
125

UNCLASSinED

HIR218000 UllULJtUtJII lk>U PAGE 5

fi Who is Mr. Slease?

A He is a private individual in Pittsburgh .

2 Did he serve as counsel to the Scaife iamily for a
period in Pittsburg?

A Yes.

2 Was Hr . Slease a client of yours?

A Yes.

2 And was the Scaiie faaily or their foundations also
clients of yours .

A Their foundation uas a client, not the fanlly.

2 Now, did you ever have the occasion to discuss
Nicaragua or Central Anerica with Hr . Slease?

A Yes.

2 Was that on acre than one occasion?

A Yes.

2 Approximately when was the first time that you
recall that you discussed Central America or Nicaragua with
Hr . Slease?

A I can't recall except — only very generally can I
recall .

2 Do you recall the year?

A Even that is a guess. '85--'85 I would guess--'86.
.- 2 All right. Was the first time you had such a
conversation with Hr . Slease over the telephone or in
person?

UNCLASSinED

574

NAME:
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HIR218000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 6

A X don' t recall .

fi Do you recall the substance o± the conversation?

A I don't. 1

2 But you do recall a discussion about Nicaragua or
Central America with Hr . Slease?

A Yes.

2 And there was more than one discussion uith him?

A Yes .

2 Describe as best you recall, what was said between
you and Mr. Slease about Nicaragua and Central America--in
the series of discussions?

A Supply that--the contras needed support. That was
basically--that was it.

e Uell, did he ask you to do anything?

A No .

e Did he ask Hr . Hirtle to do anything?

A I don't know. -

2 What was your understanding of the reason he raised
this subject with you.

A I know, through the course--assuBa ha felt I could be
useful .

S By raising money?

A Right.

8 Did he ask you to raise money?

A No.

UNCUSSIFIED

575

NAME:
151
152
153
ISU
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16 1
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16U
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HIR218000 llllll.l ll'V XI^IVII PAGE 7

Q Did he ask you to tall<~€o anyone else about raising
money?

A No.

Q Why do you assume that he ielt you could be useful
by raising money?

A In the course oi my business I know a lot of very
wealthy people.

2 Did he say anything that specif ically--that made you
think he had--raising funds in mind, when he raised this
subject with you?
A Ho.

2 Did he mention that he had been asked by anyone in
the Administration to raise funds with respect to Nicaragua
or Central America?
A No.
Excuse me.
[Witness consults with his attorney. ]

THE WITNESS: The context of these answers is my
conversations with--I was not talking with--my conversations
with Slease were general--was no--I was notified as someone
who was in a primary way involved with contra things. Hy
discussions — you know, were general with John Hlrtle.
BY HR. FRYHAK:
Q When you spoke with Ht . Slease were there other
subjects also discussed In youx conversation other than

MUSSIFIED

576

UNCussm

HAKE: HIR2 1800(VI llf LflUllll II II PAGE 8

176 Central America and Nicar agua--the conversations that you had

177 uith Mr. Slease, that you recall, where the subject of

178 Nicaragua or Central America was raised in those

179 conversations, was that just one subject among a number of

180 others that were covered in those conversations or was that

181 the only subject covered?

182 A No, they were--they were never part of a conversation

183 which was set up to discuss contras in Nicaragua.
ISU References would have been passing references, in a

185 conversation about whatever else — other issues somebody might

186 talk with on a friendly basis.

187 2 Was this in the context of business discussions that

188 you were having with Hr . Slease about your relationship with

189 him as a--as a representative of Goldman Sachs selling

190 securities?
19 1 . A No.

192 2 Or would it have been--

193 A Just in passing. I had no real business. I never
19'4 had business discussions with him, except vary rare

195 occasions.

196 2 I thought you indicated he was a client of yours?

197 . A It Has--it is a minuscula--it was a minuscule account.

198 Thare was nothing to — to discuss.

199 2 Is he a personal friend of yours?

200 A Yes.

HNtussro

577

201
202
203
2014
20S
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212
213
2 lU
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218
219
220
221
222
223
2214
225

HIK218000

UNCLASSIHED

PAGE

S Did that personal friendship grow out of the client
relationship f or was there sone other basis for it?

A He was never directly a client. He never — he in the
structure he has nothing to do uith--had nothing to do with
the foundation.

Being an associate with the organization, however, it grew
out of my association with the foundation, the client
relationship .

C And you got to know him through his association with
the foundation.

A I got to know him through is association with the
Scaife family which was involved with the foundation?

Q Right, in other words, you hadn't Known him from
school or from childhood?

A Correct.

e You had got to know him professionally, and than
through the professional relationship you became a friend of
his? Is that a fair summary?

A That is correct.

2 And you had a number of conversations with him where
the subject of Central America or Kicaragua was included in
the conversation, but it was not the central subject of any
oonversatlon; is that correct?

A That is correct.

2 And he never specifically asKed you Individually to

UNCussra

578

MAME:
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227
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2143
2'4M
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2146
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248
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250

HIR218000

onmsim

PAGE 10

raise funds for Central Anerica?

A Right--that is correct.

2 I believe you also indicated you are — let ne ask you.
Are you auare that he was having conversations with Hr .
Hirtle with respect to Nicaragua and Central Anerica?

A Yes.

2 Mow, did you learn that from Hr . Hirtle, or from Hr .
Slease ?

A From Mr. Hirtle.

2 Are you auare that fir. Slease asked Hr . Hirtle to
assist in raising money for some organization related to
Nicaragua or Central America?

A I don't--I don't know.

2 Are you auare that Mr. Hirtle undertook any
fundraising efforts for any organizations related to
Nicaragua or Central America?

(Client consults with his attorney.)

THE WITNESS: There was never — reason I asked the
question — there was no — there was no occasion of raising money
for an organization.

1 did know of a — being asked to raise money in general in
support of the contras, but an organization was never
i4antlfled.

BY MR. FRYMAN !

2 Again this information is coming from Hr . Hirtle to

ONCUSSIFIED

579

NAME :
251
25
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2614
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268
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270
271
272
273
2714
275

HIR2 18000

immim

PAGE 11

you aware o± any
Hirtle to raise iunds--

A Yes.

2 --with respect to Nicaragua?
What are you aware oi?

A I am aware of--a meeting in Philadelphia.

2 Anything else?

A Ho.

2 Are you aware that Hr . Hirtle went to Washington for
a meeting at the White House? ..

. " A Yes .

2 Did you accompany him? .. >

A No.

2 When did he tell you about that meeting?

UNCUSSIFIED

580

NAnr :

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28tt
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298
299
300

He told you in advance oi the neeting that he was

HIR218000 linil I nXVIklkll PAGE 12

A It would have ^eTn 'som^The around--sometime acound
that meeting. I don't temenbex what date that was, but it
would have — he would have — you know, we were partners so Xi he
left the office, he would have told me before he left and
after he came back, so it would have been — than that he told
me .

going?

A Yes.

2 Were you asked to attend that meeting also?
A No.

2 Who would he tell you he was going to meet with?
A I don't remember.

2 Did he mention any names with respect to that
meeting?

A Yeah.
(Witness consults with his attorney.]

THE WITNESS: I don't exactly recall.
BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 Let me try some speciiio names. Did he mention the
name of Colonel North? . . - ^

. ~ A He mentioned the name Colonel North at different
times. I can't recall him mentioning Colonel North's name
specifically in terms of the White House.

2 Or specifically in advance of the meeting that he

UNCLASSIFIED

581

NAME ■■
30 1
302
303
304
305
306
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31 1
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32(4
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HIR2 18000

UNCUSSIFIfO

PAGE 13

(as going to reeet with Colonel North?

A Right, I don't reraenbet that specifically, the name
oi Colonel North obviously cane up.

2 Did he mention Mr. McFarlane?

A He did not mention McFalane, his nane never cane up.

2 Did he mention Roy Godson?

A Yes, but again not in connection with the meeting at
the White House.

2 What did he say about Roy Godson?

A Only that he had been put in touch with hi«.

2 By whom?

A By Terry Slease.

2 What did Mr. Hirtle say when he mentic
Godson's name? What did he say about he reason he had been
put in touch with Mr. Godson?

A Other than that it had to do with Nicaragua,
nothing. It was — excuse na . Following through on your
suggestion before. I want to make--if the context nay be
helpful. I sat about five feet away fron John Hirtle in an
of«n, no office partition space. So sort of continual free
flow of information — you know, just back and forth.
You have been in a brokerage office before?

UNCLASSIFIED

582

Mmim

HknZ- HIR218000 VIlVLfmiJII ll_|j ?liGt 1U

326 MR. FRYMAN: off the record.

327 [Discussion off the record. ]

328 MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record.

329 BY MR. FRYMAN:

330 2 Continue.

331 . A Okay.

332 So I have--you knou. lot of fragnentary things which were

333 yelled across back and forth.

33U S So one of the fragmentary items was that Mr. Hirtle

335 mentioned Mr. Godson's name?

336 A right.

337 2 And did he say he had met Mr. Godson?

338 A I don't remember whether he specifically said he had

339 met him.

340 2 All right.

3141 And another item that was mentioned was that he was going

342 to Washington to meet someone at the Hhite House?

343 A Right. •" ' '

344 2 And at some point Colonel North's name was

345 mentioned?

346 A right. ''** *' '----

347 2 After the meeting at the Hhite House did Mr. Hirtle

348 d«scxib« the meeting to you?

349 A No.

350 2 Did he ask you to do anything after the meeting?

UNCIASSIFIED

NAME
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35U
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362
363
36*1
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3«6
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3711
375

HIR218000

A No

Mmsi

PACK IS

e Now, you ■•ntlonad anothar ■••ting in Philmdslphia
that you p«xticlp«t*d in, I b^littv^?

A Right.

fi Mould you d^soxib^ that ■••ting and how you oaaa to
paztleipata in it?

A Okay.
I Mas told that Colonal North Mas ooaing up to
Philadelphia. I Mas askad ii Z had any paopl^ Mho sight b^
intarastad in ■••ting his. This is by John Histla I Mas
askad.

S Is that it. I saan vas that h«M th« sukjaet «•■•
up?

A light.

fi Sid you hava any paoplo Int^z^st^d in ■••ting his?

A No p^opl^ that Maz^ — no, no.

fi So you didn't azzang* ioz anyen* you knaw to attand
th« ■••ting with Colonel Nozth in PhlladalthlaT

A Cozzoet — eozzaet.

fi But you attandad sueh a Mating? Tou attand^d a
■••ting Mith Colonal Nozth in Philadalphla?

A tight.

fi And Hz. Hiztla attandad?

A Kight.

fi Uho basidas you, Colonal Nozth and Hz. liztla

yNClASSIHEO

NAME :

376

tji*!, -tf., . • 377

378
1
1 37 9

*> »-,*&•.: . ' 38b

381

382

383

f.i f- .... ■-'■.■3844

_».-. *v '-its 385

386

vAl6«< *!><;. ■•'=3'Q7

388
389

•;*;>» i,''***. ■ 39 0

391

i" »*-"^ «f ■'*-3^2'

3^3

39<4

396
397
398
399

*' •' ' 'noo

HIR2 18000

ONCUSSIFIEO

PAGE 16

attended that meeting?

earlier and then I promptly iorgot li

REPORIER: Please spe
,* r-' > THE HITHESS-

BY MR. FRYMAN:
2 And^^^^^^Kis spelled?

A ^^^^^^^^H^Hx

Q Nou, did you know those individuals before the
meeting?

I
t

A Yes .
_ M-.g •• xn what capacity? ' '' ■*

A They were shared clients--well > X an not suxa that
^^^^^Hwas a

As a natter of fact, X am not sure^^^^^^Huas a client a-ti
that point. Whatever, they were shared contacts of others.
; 2 'Do you know hou they came to attend this meeting?
'. ■ A I don' t know.

S You didn't invite then? i

■ ■■. ... ,j(,; jj ^c;-.

. ' A I didn't invite than.

2 Is it your understanding that Mr. Hirtle invited

th««? ""~ ■

.- A I don't know.

8 Did Hz. Hirtle explain to you why he was asking you
to attend that meeting?

\iNtmssm

585

NAME:

40 1

402

U03

404

405

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HIR218000

nnnmssim

P»GE 17

A Only because I was--I had expressed sympathy towards
the cause .

2 Do you recall the date oi this meeting?

A I do not .

S What year was it?

A I don't even recall that, but I am guessing. I

don't recall-- '85 ,86 .

Q How long did the meeting last?

A I uould guess about three hours.

Q And it was at the MM«Pt club?

K
A Yeah.

2 What did he say--as you recall?

A He--talked about efforts for the Soviets to
arm--provide arms to the Sandinistas in the presence of
foreign advisers, Nicaragua. Described the contra caugo

2 Did he ask for contributions?

A No.

2 You seem very specific in that answer no. Is there
something that makes you very sure that ha did not?

A Yeah.
He--he just did not, emphatically did not.

S Had you been told in advance that he would not ask
for contributions?

A Ho. I was glad he did not.

UNCLASSinED

586

MAME

1426
(427
•428
1429

430
1431
1432
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HIR2 18000

CNWsm

PAGE 18

447

^^-^^

2 Why was thati

A I Mas glad he did not?

e Yes.

A It would have made me uncomfortable had he.

2 Why?

[Witness consults with his attorney. 1

A Just would not seem like an appropriate role.

2 Why not?

A Hy gut ieeling. That is all.

2 What did you understand Hr . Hirtle had been asked to
do?

A Raise money for humanitarian aid in general.

2 All right.
Than you understood the purpose of this meeting was to
raise money for humanitarian aid: is that correct?

A Yes. __^_^^^^^__^^^— — ^_-^_

w h y^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kf • r •
invited to this meeting ^nd that is uhy Colonel North came
up from Washington and spent three and a half hours talking

UNCLASSIFIED

587

NAME:
U51
452
1(53
HSU

uss

455
457
458
459
460
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463
464
465

HIR218000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 19

to these gentlemen; wasn't it--I nean that is what you
assumed; wasn't it?

A Yes> that is what I assumed.

Q Hell, weren't you th£n surprised aiter spending
three and a half hours that ha didn't ask for a
contribution?

A No. I was not particularly surprised.

2 Well, didn't that seem like a great waste of time
for everybody?

A People came away educated about something they were
not educated about before and--I--his role was never billed to
him as a fundraiser.

Q How was his role billed to you?

A As someone who was concerned about getting the story
across .

UNCLASSm

588

NAMC-

1466
1*67
(468
(469
1470
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472
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»79
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HIR2 18000

DCnN DANIELS

IINMSIflED

PAGE 20

2 Who did the billing? Hr . Hirtle?

A I guess so . yes .

e Uho do you lecall?

A I don't specifically recall, given I had
conversations with Mr. Hirtle, probably Mr. Hirtle.

e After Colonel North left, did Mr. Hirtle ask
^^^^^^^^ifor a contribution?

A No.

2 There was no mention oi a contribution on that
occasion?

A No.

2 Has there later to your knowledge?

A They did not stay after Colonel North left.

2 They left at the same time?

A ^^^^^Reit before Colonel North left and
left coincidentally .

2 Now did you have any discussion with eithe
Laf terwards about their making a
contribution?

A Ko.

e Do you know if Hirtle did?

A I don't know.

2 Do you know if they made a contribution?

A I do not know.

ONCUSWii

NAME- HIR218000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 21

49 1

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SOS

506

507

SOS

509

510

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513

514

515

2 Have you ever received any iniotraation of any sort
relating to whether or not they made a contribution?
A No.

2 No one has ever told you anything about a
contribution byl

A Yes. I was told by soneone in passing that
had made a contribution.
2 Who told you?

A I do not remember specifically.
2 Do you remember generally?

A I don't remember generally. It would have been--I
don't remember specifically. It would obviously have been
someone who--I don't know who it was is the answer. I can't
remember .

2 Was the amount of the contribution mentioned?

A Yes.

2 How much?

A «60,000.

2 Were you told how he made this contribution?

A Ho.

2 How did the subject cone up?

A It was just in passing.

2 Has the Hirtle who told you that?

A I don't remember.

2 What about a contribution b]

UNCUSSinED

NAME:
516
517

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HIR2 18000

BNCUSSlFe

PAGE 22

A I don't knou of any contribution byl

2 Do you knou of any other contribution that grew out
of this meeting uith Colonel Korth?

A Ho.

Q Do you have any information about any contribution
that grew out of that meeting?

A No .

2 Now, did you ever participate in or attend any
other effort with respect to raising money for any
individual or any organization for any purpose relating to
Nicaragua or Central America?

A Ho .

2 Mr. Miller, do you know Roy Godson?

A Yes.

2 When did you first meet him?

A April 1986.

2 How did you first meet him?

A I net hin at the embassy in Zurich, U.S. Embassy in
Zurich. I met him m person then. I had spoken to him on
the phone, met him by phone probably a month before that,
March, February of 1986.

2 What was the reason you had spoken to him by phone
in March or February of 1986? '

A I had been asked to see if I could interest
Europeans in a program to counter Soviet disinformation in

UNCUSSIFIED

591

imsim

laifisro

592

HknZ- HIR218000

666
•• 667

668

669

670

672

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 28

674
675
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677
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68U
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689
690

Q Was there any discussion of Nicaiagua ai
dinner ?

A No.

2 Any discussion of raising funds in any way relating
to Central America?

A No .

2 Do you know if any of your friends that you
arranged to be invited to that dinner contributed any funds
relating to Nicaragua or Central America?

A I have no idea.

e You have no knowledge of that?

S%«H >(.. ,;

4 ?-^'.^?f-

TOSSIflEO

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wussife

594

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595

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77S
776
777
778

2 At this dinner in October of 1986, was there, tc
your knowledge, any discussion of Nicaragua or Central
America!

2 Mr. Hiller, in advance of this deposition, I spoke

UNCLASSIFIED

596

NAME :
791
792
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HIR218000 Wiltfl^Jtal ^f^ffcli PAGE 33
With your attorney about any ffVk^Rents that you had in your
files that related to Mr. Godson?
A Right.

2 Before the deposition this norning, your attorney
provided to us a group of materials. Are those materials
everything in your files that you have that relate to Mr.
Godson in any way?

A Yes. To the best of my Knowledge, that is it.

MR. FRYMAN: for the record, I will just briefly
identify the materials that have been produced. Can we nark
the inventory as an exhibit?

Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.]

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record.

I ask the reporter to mark as Miller Deposition
Exhibit 1 , a two-page inventory of documents relating to Roy
Godson which have been made available by counsel for Mr.
Miller to representatives of the House and Senate Committees
this morning.

I The document marked Exhibit No. 1 follows: 1

xxxxxxxxxx COMMITTEE INSERT **x**«x*x

UNCussm

597

IINCLASSIHED

NAME- HIR2 18OO0|J|lUt_niJ|J|| II^U PAGE 3(4

813 BY MR. FRYHAN:

81M 2 nr . Millez, I have reviewed the natezials that you

815 and your counsel have provided and I believe everything in

816 this package is included in this inventory with the

817 exception of a cover sheet describing the Institute for

818 International Studies located at 5229 King Charles Way>

819 Bethesda, Maryland, 208m.

820 Now am I correct that this inventory identifies all
82 1 of the materials in your file that relate to Roy Godson?

822 A Yes.

823 fi Mr. Miller, have you ever net Oliver North?
82(4 A Yes.

825 Q You met him at the meeting in Philadelphia?

826 A Right.

827 2 Have you ever met him on any other occasion?

828 A No.

829 2 Have you ever met Thomas Dowling?

830 . A No.

831 2 Have you ever met Robert Owen?

832 A No.

833 fi Xav« you ever met John Poindexter?
83(4 .' A No.

835 T S Have you ever met William Casey?

836 A No.

837 2 Have you ever met John Hhltheaad?

UNCLASHO

598

NAME: HIR218000

838
839
SMO
8U1
8>42
843

8U5
81(6
847
8X8
849
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851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
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86 1
862

^^jinmim

PAGE 35

2 Who IS he?

A A former senior partner in Goldman C Sachs.

2 And Mr. Whitehead is now an official in the State
Department?

A Right.

2 When did you neet him?

A In 1987 when I joined Goldman £ Sachs.

2 Did you have occasion to meet him on other
occasions through the years?

A Periodically, yes.

2 Have you ever had any discussion with Mr. Whitehead
about Nicaragua or Central America?

A Ho .

9 Have you ever had any discussion with Mr. Whitehead
about Roy Godson?

A Ko.

2 Have you ever had any discussion with Mr. Whitehead
about Soviet disinformation?

A No. I have never had any political discussions
with Mr. Whitehead. I will make it simple for you.

2 Have your discussions with Mr. Whitehead generally

been limited to matters of finance?

!e -
A Yes, purely business.

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Miller, I have no further

UNCLASSIHED

599

NAHE ■
863
86M
865
866
86
86,
861
87
87
87
87
87
57
8

HIR218000 iliVI.I ll%^IA.ILflV pAGE 36

questions. My colleague' Mr' 'cflfi^r may have some questions
at this time .

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE

BY MR. OLIVER

600

mmsim

UNCUSSIFIED

601

NAHE: HIR218000

10LI6
1047
lOUS
'10 4 9
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loss

10S6
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106 1
1062
1063

MR. DANZIGER: Don't you think at this point we aie
getting a bit far afield? Mr. Killer, whether you agree or
not, IS permitted to have interests beyond his faiiily and
his employment which have nothing to do with the subject of
the committee's investigation.

MR. OLIVER: That is what ua aze trying to
determine. I will try to be a brief as possible.

MR. DANZIGER: You are asking him about his
beliefs, isn't that offensive?

MR. OLIVER: I an not trying to be offensive. I am
trying to determine his association with Roy Godson.

MR. DAKZIGER: He told you several times now.

HR. OLIVER: Ke also told me earlier that he
attended two dinners and now it turns out ha has attended
three. I would like to establish for the record exactly
what it is all about.

MR. DANZIGER: Please do that and let's not
interfere with his position or political beliefs.

UNCUSSIHED

602

MAHE!

106*4
1065
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. 1080
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UNCUkSSIHED

Hx«a 18000 yi^iiLH^oifitu "- «

HR. OLIVER: I will asR tha quttstionx, Counsal.

Ht. DANZIGKR' You aay not b« abla to bacausa ua
■ay objact.

HI. OLZVZX: I undaxstand. That is your right.

KK. DtNZZGZR: You aza going a tad iaz aiiald in an
oifansiva aannaz.

nt. OLIVER > I aa sozzy you aza iaallng that way.
but I aa tzying to ask tha quastiona that I think aza
iaportant to this dafosition.

HR. 0ANZI6ER: What zalavaney deas his yesition on
disiniforaation with tha Soviats hava to do with it?

HR. OLIVER: I didn't ask hia that. I askad hia
about his axpazianoa.

RR. SANZIGERi Yau askad hia Mhat ha kneiis about
Russia. ■ - . :■ ' i

HR. OLIVER) I askad hia what his backgzound Has on
Soviat disinfozaation.

HR. ORNZIQERi Ooas that hava anything to do with
this daposition?

HR. OLIVER: X den*t knew yat.-

RR. ORNZIGERi Tha subpoana talks about Cantzal
Raaziea and Nicazagua.
-. HR. OLIVER: li you would lat aa ask tha quastions.
I think you will saa what zalavanea it has.

HR. SAMZIGER: Flaasa ask tha quastion.

UNCIASSIHEO

603

J i -i «oo

^0^

L09:

1(A9i

KAME
1089
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109 1
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8
9
0
1

1 102
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1 lOU
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1 106
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1109
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HIR2 18000

UNCUSSIFIED

PAGE 46

lOf

1/10 I

BY HR. OLIVER:

2 In this Soviet disinformation activity m which you
became involved with Mr. Godson, was the discussion of U.S.
policy in Central America or Soviet policy in Central
America and how these subjects related to European public
opinion discussed?

A Ko .

2 It was not?

A It was not.

2 But not Nicaragua?

A Not Nicaragua.

2 It was never brought up?

A Never brought up.

2 Could I ask you about the meeting in Philadelphia

that you mentioned earlier? I believe that meeting took

place at the Racquet Club; correct?

A Yes.

2 Are you a member of that club?

A I was not. I am not anymore.

2 So you arranged for the room at the Racquet Club;
correct?

A Right.

2 Mhen Hr . Hirtle asked you to arrange for the room.

WUSWfl

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1131
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1 13M

UNCUSSIFIED

HIR218000 IJIlljLfltltjIl ll II fi^Gf^ 47

did he asK you to airange for a private dining roon or a
table in the main room?

A It was not a dining room. It was a private room.

2 Mr. Hirtle asked you to arrange for a private room?

A He asked me to arrange for a room. It turned out
it was not a private room.

2 Did he tell you what the purpose was in having a
private room?

A It was not a private room.

2 But you said he asked you to arrange for a room.
Did he tell you what the purpose of the dinner was going to
be at that time?

A I don't mean to be nitpicking. It was not a
dinner .

2 It was a meeting?

A Nobody ate.

Q Did you indicate earlier you were there about three
hours ?

A Right.

e And nobody ate dinner?

A Ollie is a dedicated guy from what I understand.

UNCUSSIFIED

605

KAME: HIR218000

1 135 RPTS MAZUR

1 136
1137

1 138

1 139

1 mo

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mmsim

fAGE 48

DCriH DANIELS

A The meeting uas held m two separate sessions, one
uith--one uith--only four of us present at any point in tim« .
2 So the four in the first meeting would have been

ind you and Hr . Hirtle and Colonel North and the
second meeting. ^^^^^^^^^^| instead of'
A Right.

2 Did Mr. Hirtle indicate to your prior to the
meeting that Mr . --Colonel North would not ask for money at
the meeting and that money should not be mentioned at tha
meeting ?

A No, he didn't--it didn't cone up.

2 Did it strike you as unusual for Colonel North to
come all the way to Philadelphia to talk to two people?
A I don't know.

MR. OANZIGER: He can't discuss what is unusual.
Why don't you ask him questions that he can answer.
BY MR. OLIVER:
2 Your statement is that Mr. Hirtle did not indicat*
to you that Colonel North was not supposed to ask ioz money.
A Right.
T 2 But you had said earlier that it was your--you
thought it was inappropriate and that is why you thought he
hadn't asked for money.

ONCUSSIFIEO

606

NAME-

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HIR218000

fNCUSS/f/fn

PAGE (49

A That I thought it was inappropriate.

2 I think you responded to Hr . Fryisan's question that
you thought--

A Yes.

2 You mentioned that you heard in a conversation in
passing that^^^^^^^^^^Lontributed $6,000 to--to what?

A Towards humanitarian aid.

2 Towards humanitarian aid?

A I would--that is not correct. I don't know to what,
IS the answer .

2 When did this conversation in passing take place?

A Sometime aiter that meeting, but when, I don't
remember .

2 And you don't reneaber who mentioned it?

A As I say, it was in passing.

2 Who else might have known about it besides you and
Mr. --Mr. Hirtle was not the one who told you, is that--

A I don't remember.

2 You don't remember what Mr. Hirtle told you?

A No.

2 Did you ever meet a man named Halt Raymond?

A No. i

2 Has the purpose of the dinner in June of 1986 to
solicit--

A Excuse me. I want to correct one thing. It was

607

NAME :

1 185

^ ^"'^ -■ 1186

'*"'" ' 1187

1 188

" 1 189

1 190

rvf '119 1
\, ' 119 2
1193
119«»
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119 6
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UNCLASSinEO

had

' 1 198
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12014
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HIR218000i,jui.i u > Yii ii II PAGE 55

not--it was not Mr. Hirtle who told rae about the
contribution .

2 You said you didn't remember. '

A But--I don't remember who it was, but it was not Mr.
Hirtle and I remember that because I Knew beiore Mr. Hirtle
knew .

e Did you tell Mr. Hirtle that|
contributed «60,000?
A Yes .

2 Did he--he didn't ask you how you knew that?
A No. I do not recall that.

Q Bu-t^^^^^^^^^H was--the arzangenents for hin to
come to the dinner were made through Mr. Hirtle; is that
right?

A Yes.

2 Did you--did you ask anyone else to come to the
dinner? Did you talk to anyone else about coming to the
dinner--

MR. DANZIGER: You keep on talking about a dinner.
It wasn't a dinner.

MR. OLIVER: Well, the meeting with Colonel North.
THE WITNESS: I probably did, yes.
BY MR. OLIVER:
2 That was what you were asked to do by Mr. Hirtle;
is that correct, to find out ii somebody was interested?

yNCLASSIFIED

608

NAME:
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HIR218000

UNCUSSIFIED

Yes.

PAGE 51

2 Ancl--so you made sone phone calls--just find out if
people were interested in coming to this meeting with
Colonel North?

A Yes, I probably did. I don't specifically recall
the conversation, but I am sure I did.

2 And what would you have told these people?

A I would have said either--it is all--I would have
said, ''If you are interested in the contra issue and
Nicaragua, than someone is coming up who has authority to
speak on it, who is an authoritative source on it. You
might be interested in hearing what he has to say.'*

2 How many phone calls did you make?

A As I say, I don't remember.

2 Uould it have been five?

A Probably five or less.

2 But none of the people who you were interested--who
you sought to get interested or who you inquired whether or
not they were interested —

A P.ight.

2 — none of them were interested, in fact, enough to
come to the meeting?
-V A That is right.

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record a second.
[Discussion off the record. 1

UNClilSSIFiED

609

NAME:
123S
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HIR2 18000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 52

BY MR. OLIVER:

2 Did you introduce John Hirtle to Terry Slease or
did--John Hirtle introduced you? Uhen did that relationship
start?

A I uould have introduced him to Tetzy Slease.

Q You introduced John Hirtle to Terry Slease?

A Yes.

2 And how did you know Terry Slease originally? What
was your first contact with--

A It uas through the Scaif a Jsl--interest in general.

2 The foundation interest?

A It uas not through the foundation. It uas not
through the foundation. It uas only because he uas sort of
a background person. He uas not associated uith the
foundation per se . He uas--

2 You discussed uith Terry Slease his activities to
raise funds for contras in Nicaragua; is that correct?

A It is correct--uell , it is not--not--really , that is
not correct, no.

2 Did Terry Slease tell you that he had gone to
Washington and met uith Colonel North?

A No , no .

2 But Mr. Hirtle did tell you that he had gone to
Washington--

A Gone to Washington, not that he had gone to raeet

WUSSIfiffl

610

P^S^^^I

NAHE :
1260

126 1
1262
1263
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127 1
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,/ '282
1283
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KIR2 18000

uith Colonel North

DNCUSSIFIEO

PAGE 53

S He did not tell you when he returned that he had
raet with someone at the White House?

A I don't recall--! don't recall who he said he raet
uith when he carae back.

e Well, when he asked you to set this meeting or to
arrange this room for this meeting, who did he tell you
Colonel North was?

A On the National Security Council.

2 He did not tell you he had net with him previously
in the White House?

A No .

2 '.^ou were not aware of that?

A I am not aware of that.

2 And you were not aware that Terry Slease raet with
Colonel North at any time?

A I am not aware of that.

2 Were you aware that Terry lease had solicited funds
for the conttas from any other persons?

A No.

2 Whose names that has not been mentioned here today?

A No.

2 Here you aware of contributions from

"NMsm

611

NAME- HIR218000

UNCLASSIFIED

PAGE 5<4

\^'

ni'^^

1285
1286
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1288

^^j.A-'^ ''''

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129 1
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1296
1297
1298
1299
1300
1 30 1
1302
1 303
130U
1 305
1306
1 307
1308
1309

2 Do you know]

A I met hira.

Q He IS not a friend or business associate?

A He wouldn't know who I am.

S Do youj

A No .

Q Hhen this story broke in the newspaper this year or
late 1986 and early 1978. did it--did you react in any way to
this by calling Terry Slease or John Hirtle to ask then
whether or not what you had been peripherally associated
with had anything to do with this?

A No.

2 Vou haven't discussed it with them in--in
retrospect, or have you?

A Yes. Yes. I have.

2 When did you discuss it with Hr . Slease?

A Well. It would have been sometine after the--after
the stuff hit the paper. Exactly when, I don't remember.

e Did Mr. Slease tell you that he had talked to
anyone associated with this investigation?

A Yes.

2 Did he call you--infoE» you of that?

A No .

MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions at this
time .

UNCUiSSIHED

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HAKE:
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HIR218000

"Ncuss/fe

PAGE 55

HR. FRYHAH: Mr. Buck?

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE

BY MR. BUCK:
e Mr. Miller, I would just like you and your counsel
to put on the record what you want with this deposition,
what its future use may be.

MR. DANZIGER: I would like you to tell me.

My discussions--with Mr. Fryman and Mr. Oliver this
morning, they have not given me any absolute assurances what
would happen with the deposition. My request though was
that it not be made part of the public record since it is my
understanding--my discussion with Mr. Miller and his
discussion with you gentlemen this morning that--this is a
person who is exercising his rights to associate with who he
wishes. He violated no laws, offended no one, and because
of his desire for privacy and protection of his own person
and others, he would obviously desire that his deposition
not be made part of any public record, nor any information
that he appeared to be made known to the media or to anyone
outside of the confines of this room or the committee
members li they deem so appropriate.

If there is agreement on that, I would like to hear
it. If there is disagreement with what I said, I would like
to hear that also.

He is concerned about some of his European contacts

wssife

€13

NAME:
133S
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1338
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HIR218000

UNCUSmiED

PAGE 56

in that he does not want their names to be made public

because he is somewhat concerned about the extent of

terrorism in Europe--uhether that is a uell-iound<Jf ear or not

A
is unimportant. He is concerned about that and he doesn't

want to be a person who identifies anybody in a public

record and have some problem in Europe in a less protected

society than our own.

Is that an accurate reflection on our discussion,
Mr. Fryman?

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Danziger, I indicated to you that
the use of this deposition was governed by the rules which
was provided--a copy of which was provided to you in advance
of commencement of the deposition today.

Unless directed by the committee, the fact that a
deposition occurred or the transcript of a deposition is not
a part of any public record, but is confidential.

Your concerns that you have expressed will be taken
into consideration. I cannot give you any absolute
assurance at this point what in the final instance the
committee will decide to make public, but your concerns will
be noted and taken into account.

MR. DANZIGER: Hell, realistically Mr. Miller and
tha input of the staff is sought by the committee. You
understand that and so do I. I would ask--is it fair to say
that your recommendations, the committee staff

UNCLASSIFIED

614

NAME :
1360
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UNCUSSIHED

HIR218000 limial U.I.IIFiril PAGE 57

tecomnendations would be that his deposition not be nade
public?

HR. FRYMAH: Well, there are a lot of — the
investigation is still underway, and I can't really give you
definitively what my recomnendations will be until the
session is concluded and specifically the investigation into
certain of the areas that were covered this norning are
still underway.

So because of that, I really am not able to respond
to that .

KR. BUCK: Hr. Killer, I would like to conclude by
thanking you for coming from New York.

MR. FRYMAH: I have no further questions.

Mr. Danziger, I would ask that you retain in your
custody the group of Godson materials that are identified in
the inventory which is Miller Exhibit No . 1 . He have agreed
that it will not be necessary at this time to produce those
materials to the committee.

You have made them available to us fox our
examination and I would ask that you agree to retain them in
your custody in the event that the committee believes it is
necessary to consider those materials further.

Is that satisfactory to you?

MR. DANZIGER: Yes.

Would you be able to let us know what the staff

>ifimim

615

(INCUISSIHED

NAME: HIR218000 IJIllll nilalll 1111 PAGE 58

1385
1386
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1390
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1395

recommendation is going to be on the--as to Mr. Millet's
dsposition?

HR. FRYMAN: ue will agree, if there is a
recommendation or a decision to make public the transcript,
ue will agree to notify you of that in advance .

MR. DANZIGER: When do you think that decision will
be made?

MR. FRYHAH: I don't know.

That concludes the deposition.
[Whereupon, at 11=20 a.m., the taking of the deposition
was concluded . ]

UNCLASSIFIED

616

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UnrarlMd aai OwAtai.
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DEPOSITION OF JOHNATHAN MILLER

Wednesday, September 30, 1987

U.S. House of Representatives,
Select Committee to Investigate

Covert Arms Transactions with Iran,
Washington, D.C.

The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m.,
in Room B-336, Rayburn House Office Building, Spencer Oliver
presiding.

Present: Spencer Oliver, on behalf of the House Select
Coomittee .

Ken Buck, on behalf of the House Select Committee.

Thomas Fryman, on behalf of the House Select Committee.

Buck Hammond, on behalf of the House Select Committee.

Victor Zangla, on behalf of the House Select Committee.

Henry J. Flynn, on behalf of the Senate Select Committee.

Patrick J. Christmas, on behalf of the witness.

UNCLASSIFIED

Whereupon ,

JOHNATHAN MILLER,
was called as a witness on behalf of the House Select Com-
mittee, and having been duly sworn, was examined and testified
as follows:

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE HOUSE SELECT
COMMITTEE
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Good morning, Mr. Miller.
A Good morning.

Q At the outset, I would like to submit for the record
the immunity order from the United States District Court for
the District of Columbia, dated August 18, 1987. Counsel,
you have examined this and find it to be in order?
MR. CHRISTMAS: Yes. That is fine.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Miller, could we start by asking you a little
bit about your background, where you were born, where you
wwit to school, and sort of leading up to the time you came
into government service.

A I was born in 1952 in Louisville, Kentucky. I~,^._^

attended Duke University and

0( tso

University Law School. I

moved in late 1979 to Washington to work in a political
campaign.

Q Which campaign w^s thTt'

PCL4SSIF!E9

vMimm

1 A George Bush's Presidential ceunpaign.

2 Q What did you do?

3 A I was his Deputy Political Director.

4 Q Who was Political Director?

5 A David Keeng. '

6 Q How long did you remain in that position?

7 A I was with Vice President Bush through the November

8 election and stayed with him through the transition.

9 Q Did you have some specific responsibilities in his
■JO transition?
•J1 A I handled personnel und^xDean Burch, who reported

12 directly to the Vice President, Presidential personnel

13 matters.

14 Q You mean personnel government-wide?

15 A Yes.

1g Q These were political appointments?

iy A "> Ub»t happens in every transition.

Ig Q Then what did you do after the transition?

ig A I became an administrative assistant to Congressman

2Q Giodling of Pennsylvania, Republican of Pennsylvania, and
was there until about November of '81, and was asked to go
down to the Agency for International Development. I went
there.

Q Who asked you to go down there?

A Jay Morris, who was then assistant, then became

UNCUS&lKlfAr,

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1 Deputy Administrator.

2 Q What did you do there?

3 A I was special assistant in the front office, but I

4 spent most of my time working with the new Bureau for

5 Private Enterprise, headed by Elise Dupont. The duties were

6 to further promotion of private enterprise in lesser developed

7 countries.

8 Q How long did you stay in that position?

9 A Until January of 1983. In January of 1983, I

10 became Peace Corps Director in Botswana, Southern Africa,

11 and was there until December of '83 when I was asked to cut

12 my tour short by Ambassador Reich and become his deputy,

13 one of his two deputies in the newly formed Interagency

14 Public Diplomacy operation.
,|g Q Have you worked with Ambassador Reich when you were

16 at AID?

A He and I would work on projects together, but it

13 w«a not a day-to-day working arrangement.
19 Q What was his job at AID?

A Assistant Administrator for Latin America.

Q When you were at AID prior to your departure for

22 Botswana, did you know Rich Miller?

A Very casually, yes.

Q When you say casually?

A AID is not a massive bureaucracy, so you would,

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especially since I was affiliated with the front office, you
would see Miller coming in and out because he was Director
of Public Affairs at the time. He and I didn't work together
at all.

Q Had you known him before that?

A I met him in the 1980 ceunpaign when he was working
on the press section of the Reagan and Bush Committee, but I
didn't work with him at all.

Q What was your duty in the Reagan-Bush —

A When Vice President Bush was chosen to run for
Vice President, I ceased to be his Deputy Political Director
because that job didn't exist any longer, and I became Tour
Director, which oversaw the President's campaign on the road.
So I was on the road all the time, and Miller was, like
everybody else, back in Washington.

Q How did you happen to become Peace Corps Director
in Botswana? Had you been a Peace Corps volunteer or had
any experience in that area?

A No, I had been in Botswana in 1982 on a private
sector survey and had been impressed with it. When I decided
that I had it in Washington and wanted to do something a
little more meaningful, I talked to Loret Ruppe, Director
of the Peace Corps, and there was an opening in Botswana and
among other countries, that was the one that I felt was most
desirable from a standpoint of ability to do something. I

UNCLASSIFTn

622

ONBCASSCnsr

1 was very, very impressed and continued to be impressed with

2 the country, Botswana.

3 Q And how did you happen to learn about this opening

4 at LPD? What were the circumstances surrounding it?

5 A I was back in Washington on Peace Corps business

6 euid literally ran into Otto in the hallway of the Old

7 Executive Office Building. He was on his way into a meeting

8 with the Public Liaison Office and received a phone call

9 from him, really one of his staffers, I don't think it was

10 from him, asking if I would be interested in coming and

11 indicated that I had just started a tour that was to last

12 until July of '85 in Botswana, and although I felt that our

13 Central American policy was important, I couldn't pick up

14 and leave, that would create rather nasty repercussions in

15 the Peace Corps.

16 And a series of conversations back and forth, he asked
\J me to come up — he indicated that —
^g Q These are taking place in Washington?

19 A These are taking place in Washington. Come on as

20 on* of his two deputies. He had a Foreign Service Deputy.

21 He wanted somebody who could handle especially liaison

22 with the White House. And I went back to Africa, thought about

23 it. This dickering went back and forth for almost two months

24 Q What period of time are we talking about?

25 A September of '83 until I guess late November of

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'83. I can't be more precise than that.

2 Q Then you decided to come back?

3 A I decided to come back, which created the chagrin

4 at the Peace Corps, as well as with my wife.

5 Q When you say chagrin at the Peace Corps, did she

6 complain to somebody at the White House?

7 A No. She did complain to Ambassador Reich.

8 Q When did you join LPD?

9 A I think sometime in December, '83. I cannot give

10 you the exact date. I am sure the State Department personnel

11 records will reflect it. I would say early December, '83.

12 Q How many people were employed at LPD when you

13 arrived?

14 A That is very difficult to recall, because it was in

15 the midst of getting off the ground. It had started in a
•J5 very quick fashion earlier in the summer, I had never even
17 heard about it, and it was still gearing up — I would, and
•J8 this is a very rough guess — guess there maybe were 10 to
•J9 15 people, mostly from other agencies, very few directly

20 with the State Department.

21 Q Was John Blacken ther^/when you arrived?

22 A No. John was DCM trfe the Dominican Republic at the

23 time. At the time the other gentleman was Robert Dubose, who

24 is now in the, I think, INR Section of the State Department,
the last time I saw him.

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MR. CHRISTMAS: Could you keep your voice up? He
is having a little problem.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q When did John Blacken come on?

A There was a gap. I think Bob got an assignment in
INR, he left, and there was — John and Otto had discussions
fairly early, and it meant John would have to curtail his
job as DCM early. I don't think John came on board until
spring, late spring of '84, but I can't be precise.

Q so you were essentially the main Political Deputy
from December on. How did your duties differ from those of
Dubose's prior to John Blacken' s?

A AS you probably know from taking other people's
depositions, precision was never a strong suit of LPD,
but roughly, and assignments changed from day to day.
Roughly. Bob worked more on intelligence analysis, and I
did more work on outreach, if you wanted to make it very --
b^ause he was a Foreign Service officer with an intelligence
background, and I was a political person who Otto felt
first and foremost his problem was to make sure that we
presented our policy as forthrightly as possible but in a
responsible manner, because there were, without criticizing
certain people, there were certain people, especially in the
Public Liaison Office of the White House, who were more

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fervent in sort of expostulating their interpretation of the
President's policy and had a tendency sometimes to be a
little i^ecJcless.

My first assignment was to try to be a governor on
certain people in the Public Liaison Office.
Q So you stayed there until when?
A August of 1985.
Q And why did you leave LPD?

A There were a myriad of reasons. A friend of mine
told me about an opening at the National Security Council
which was frankly interesting, and that was to oversee the
President's foreign travel and to handle foreign leaders'
visits to the United States. It was over at the National
Security Council. And so that had some attraction. And,
frankly, after two years of dealing on Central American
matters, I was a little -wd«y4

Q Who told you about this?

A A gentleman by the name of Christopher Hicks, who
w^ then Deputy Assistant to the President for Administration.
Q How did Otto Reich feel about your leaving LPD?
A He had mixed emotions. I think he felt I had put
in ray dues, but he understood it. It was a classic case of
burnout.

Q And then how long did you stay in that job at the

NSC?

UNCLASSIFiFn

626

umoBmEP^T

1 A I left in May of 1986, I think. I guess May of '86.

2 Q Artd then you went to?

3 A I went to the Deputy Assistant to the President

4 for Management position.

5 Q How did that happen to come about?

6 A I had already resigned in March from the NSC and

7 had said that I would be leaving NSC .on my\ finishing my

8 jobs at the Tokyo Economic Summit, and Chris Hicks /wag. going

9 on to be General Counsel^ and he recommended me to Don Regan.
iQ So Regan asked me right after the Tokyo Summit if I would take
^■j the job.

■J2 Q Why did you resign from the NSC?
•J3 A I was not very happy with the managment style of

1^ Admiral Poindexter. I personally liked John Poindexter, but

15 I did not — was not at all happy with the way things were

1g being sort of operated in an isolated fashion.
yt Q What do you mean by an isolated fashion?

*a A Admiral Poindexter had a tendency to sort of run

19 ^Jfe^M' °^ ^ very, very tight compartmentalized basis, and
thare was no, at least in my area, there was no ability to
question — I am basically a political animal, and I believe
in give and take, and there was a tendency in the Admiral's

entourage, most of them being former Naval officers, to sort
of salute the flag and/anver question the Admiral. I felt
like I was in a straight jacket, so I tendered ray

UNCLASSIFIED

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resignation in March.

Q Who did you report to at the NSC?

A Originally I reported directly to Mr. McFarlane,
when he was the National Security Advisor. When Admiral
Poindexter came on board, in theory I still continued to
do that, but actually I started reporting to Rodney McDaniel.

Q His job was?

A Executive Secretary.

Q Of the NSC?

A Of the NSC.

Q And then you left in —

A May of '86, right after the Tokyo Summit.

Q You left your new job in —

A May of '87.

Q — May of '87. And that was the day Rob Owen
mentioned your neune in the testimony?

A That is correct.

Q Were you watching his testimony when your name
w4A aentioned?

A Yes, I was. But I had — if I remember correctly,
there are several things that have to be noted, one of which
is I had already indicated on several occasions that I
offered my resignation. Interestingly enough, a month
before I tried to resign, on several occasions, to Ken

Duberstein, because

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ecome readily

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1 apparent, I am rather candid in my assessments, I was not

2 happy with Howard Baker's new management style, and I had

3 ceased to report to the Chief of Staff, and I was reporting

4 through two different layers to the Chief of Staff. And

5 for one month, I had attempted to resign, in fact sent a

6 letter to Ken Duberstein, I was going to resign several

7 weeks before this occurred.

8 I was told my resignation wouldn't be accepted.

9 And then when, two days before Mr. Owen testified, I was

10 told that Mr. Owen might make these statements, I indicated

11 once again I would be happy to resign.

12 Q Who told you Owen was going to make these state-

13 ments?

■J4 A I was told by one of the House counsel — White

15 House Counsel. I can't remember who it was exactly, because

■jg I had several conversations.

■J7 Q Had you told anyone else in the White House prior

1g to that you had cashed traveler's checks for Oliver North?

•J9 A No.

20 Q Why not?

2^ A Frankly, I to this day — I may question the

wisdom of it^out I didn't ever thing there was anything wrong

still don't, or improper or illegal.

Q When you were told by the White House counsel or
one of the White^Bause counsels that this incident might be

25 one of the WhitegUoi^jL counsels that this

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mentioned, did you mention it to anyone else in the White
House? Did you tell your superiors about this?

MR. CHRISTMAS: This is before Owen's testimony,
right?

MR. OLIVER! He indicated at the time he was told,
which I think he said was two days before. Between the time
Owen testified and the time that he learned that this might
be mentioned, did you tell anyone in the White House —

THE WITNESS: I can't recall I did. I remember
having a conversation with Mr. Culvahouse where he indicated

11 he thought possibly some people should be notified.

12 I suggested only the Chief of Staff needed to be

13 notified, the Chief of Staff.

14 BY MR. OLIVER:

15 Q Were they notified?

16 A Mr. Culvahouse and Senator Baker were, I assume,

17 within —

18 MIt* CHRISTMAS: Oon't assume.

19 THE WITNESS: I had no personal knowledge.

20 BY MR. OLIVER:

21 Q Regarding those traveler's checks, I would like,

22 if I can, to let Mr. Flynn from the Senate ask questions

23 about that area.

24 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE SENATE SELECT
COMMITTEE

UNCLftSSIFHEB

630

QWft^RISffl^

1 BY MR. FLYNN:

2 Q The testimony I am referring to now is the public

3 testimony on television and has now been published by the

4 government. You said you were present when Rob Owen received

5 traveler's checks from Oliver North, is that correct?

6 A Yes.

7 MR. CHRISTMAS: Are you talking about one occasion
3 or more than one?

g MR. FLYNN: That was my next question.

10 BY MR. FLYNN:

11 Q How many times did this actually occur?

12 A To my best recollection, once.

12 Q This would be approximately what timeframe?
A Spring of '85, I think. ■

Q You received all the checks directly from Oliver
North. Is that correct?

A That's what I recall. |'

Q The review of the traveler's checks cashed by the
S^ate Committee indicates that you cashed $3300 in traveler's
checks. Would you generally agree with that figure?
A That sounds roughly correct.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Are you talking about him personally
sir?

MR. FLYNN: Yes. The ones that were actually
cashed by yourself, that had your naime on it.

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THE WITNESS: I am not sure that la correct.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Would it be easier if he went
through the scenario of what happened?

MR. FLYNN: Absolutely. Whatever will help you
arrive at the figure is fine.

THE WITNESS: For whatever reason, I came into
Colonel North's office. And I was told there was going to
be a problem in that the next day

I don't know why we were asked to cash the money,
but Rob Owen was there, and I thii\)c there was — my recollec-
tion is that he just said there was too much money for him

X ne II
to cash and iell, and

some refer-
ence was made, and I can't remenber who made it, to the
necessity to help out. At some point, I hope we go into
that.

But, at that point, I was just handed a group, and
I don't, think it was divided up in a nice little pile, and I

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1 said that I would go to my bank. One of the reasons I

2 continue to feel that if ^ were improper, I wouldn't have

3 gone to my bank and signed and counter-signed the checks.

4 It was such a large amount that I frankly, and it is another

5 example of why I didn't think it was improper, asked my wife

6 to sign some of them at our bank. They had a rule at the

7 branch they couldn't cash over "X" amount, and that is why I

8 sort of questioned^ A may have received approximately

9 $3500 or $3300 or $3100, but I don't think I signed or counter-

10 signed/ I think I actually, I would never get my wife in

11 trouble^^ but I actually asked my wife to cash some of them

12 as well

13 BY MR. FLYNNi

14 Q What name would she have used?

15 A Elizabeth Thompson.

1g MR. CHRISTMAS: That is her maiden neune?

17 THE WITNESS: She continues to keep the name,

13 Thompson.
19 BY MR. FLYNNi

Q If we took the total checks signed by you, which
we have as $3300, plus the total we have for Elizabeth
Thompson, which we have as only $500 —

A Then that is possible. Apparently, and I didn't
know about this until recently, I don't remember, I had asked

25 my brother to cash some traveler's checks as well, who is Scott

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Miller. ^^^^Hgot more than I thought.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Can I Inquire what you have for his
brother, sir? ^

MR. FLYNN: $500. Scottlw. Miller?

THE WITNESS: Right.

BY MR. FLYNN:
Q It would be Elizabeth Thompson, $500. Scott
Miller, $500.

A Right. If you say — I have no reason to dispute
it. I am frankly amazed it was that much money. I won't
dispute it.

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BY MR. FLYNN:
Q j^^^H wasn't in the room at the time you got the
checks from North, is that right?
A No.

Q So just by way of summary, the checks were given
directly to yourself, you didn't know what the amount was
because you could only cash so much money at the bank , you
asked your brother to cash some, Scott Miller, and you asked
your wife to cash some, and her legal name on the checks is
Elizabeth Thompson.
A Right.

Q So it would be fair to say then the total, your
3300 dollars plus the two 500 would make a total of
$4300. You accept that?

A I will accept it.
Q Thank you.

What is your brother's full name?
A Nilliam Scott Miller the Third.
Q Thank you, sir. ; ,._

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Just to follow up on this a little bit, when
you indicated that you were in North's office and Rob Owen
was there and this subject cfune up abouti
^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^H need for money,
take these travelers checks out of the safe in his office?

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635

A He took them out of what is called the safe, but it
is actually a file drawer that is normally used to store
classified documents.

Q Did you know that he kept these travelers checks
in his drawer?

A I cannot say for certain I knew before that fact
Obviously after that I did. y(ihe events of the last
couple years have been sort of blurry and I can't tell you
whether I knew before then that he did.

Q Were you aware that he was dispensing money to
various people, a stash of travelers checks in the top
drawer?

MR. CHRISTMAS: Prior to the day he gave the
travelers checks?

MR. OLIVER: I'm asking any time.
MR. CHRISTMAS: So we are clear on this.
THE WITNESS: Obviously after the fact I became
aware of that, but I cannot say I was aware. One always
!}•■ suspicions and one — but I can't say for sure.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Did you ask him what the source of the funds was?
A I cannot remember whether —

MR. OLIVER: Could we go off the record just a
minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

iiMPi accicecn

636

THE WITNESS: I can't remember whether I asked him
or whether he volunteered it. That's the only time 1 was
aware he said it came from Calero. I didn't ask where
Calero got it.

BY MR. OLIVER:

Q That was the first time you were aware of Oliver
North keeping these travelers checks in his office and the
first time you were aware he was dispensing these checks,
is that correct? ',]

A That is the first time. As I recall that is the
first time I was actually aware as opposed to what my
suspicions were.

Q Why had you had suspicions?

A Well, I mean, as no doubt everybody who has ever
come before this committee has had suspicions about Ollie.
A lot of it was, you would discount because he has a
tendency to engage in rhetorical hyperbole. If I discounted
75 percent of what he intimated, there was a lot to suspect
b»t it was nothing hard and fast. Plus he had an emotional,
i||kry strong emotional commitment to certain factions within
the contras, ones I did not necessarily share with him.

Q He gave you a group of the travelers checks and
gave a group of them to Rob Owen.

A That's as I recall.

Q And what did he say at that point?

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A 1 an not abiolutely certain. 1 think it'« just
that we needed to get cash to I

0 So you and Owen left the office together to go
do this?

A I can't remember whether we left together or not.
I just went immediately, called my wife and said I have
to go to Alexandria to cash some checks.

Q Where was your wife then?

A She was at home.

Q Where was your brother?

A I can't remember trtiere he was working at the time.
He is one of those itinerant government employees that
move around from point to point like I do.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Don't forget this is going to
be public.

THS WITNESS: He is leaving government next week
to go to the private sector.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Did you meet your wife and brother downtovm?

A I think I met my brother downtovm, gave him some
checks and went to Alexandria.

Q Where did your brother cash the checks?

A I don't know. I assume —

MR. CHRISTMAS: Don't assume.

638

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BY MR. OLIVER:

Q He didn't go to the bank with you?

A No. . J

Q Did you and your wife go to the bank together to
cash these checks?

A As much as I recall, yes. ^

Q What did you tell your brother when you gave him
the checks?

A I don't think 1 told him anything except that I
needed the checks cashed.

Q You just handed him a stack of blank travelers
checks on a South American bank and told him to cash these
checks?

A I think a Central American bank. I really can't
recall. I'm not trying to be cute, I just can't recall. I
mean at the time — this was so, even though it was the only
time I ever recall cashing travelers checks, this seemed to
be so although unusual, not improper that I didn't remember
until I watched Owen actually saying, recalling the thing,
b«cause I couldn't remember the details. And I tried
over the last several months to recall that, although I don't
have any records. I never retained any records.

Q But you had been told two days before that?

A I wasn't told he was going to say anything. All
I was told was that Owen would say we had cashed some

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You went to the bank the next day.

No, my nafse has evening hours until 7:30.

Then when did you get the money from your brother;
I can't remember if it was that night or the next

travelers checks and I couldn't remember anything beyond
that until I watched him actually go through the scenario
and all of a sudden, a bell went off and I said, oh, yes.
Alzheimers must have inflicted me at a rather early age.

Q What time of day was it you met your brother?

A I think it was early evening, dusk or something
like that.

A
morning.

Q And then when did you give the money back to
Oliver North?

A I don't think I gave it to North, 1 think I gave
it to Owen.

Q Where did you give it to Owen?

A I really don't recall, I'm sorry. It could have
b«en 17th Street, it could have been the Hay-Adams, it
could have been at Scholl's, I don't really know.

Q Did you discuss the purpose of this transaction
with Rob Owen when you left North's office or after you left
North's office?

A No, I think he was aware of it.

Q Did you ask him what it was all about?

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A No. I think he was quit* aware of it. I have got
to say for the record, and 1 realize this is going to be
released, he and I did not necessarily get along. We
represented two sort of different factji^ within the

contras.

He was there to do his duty for Ollie. I don't think there
was a necessity for any discussion as to what the purpose
was .

So you gave him $4300 —

I didn't give him any.

Rob Owen.

Oh, you mean after, the cash.

Yes . lii--^

It was $4300. I'll have to reiay on Mr. Flynn's —
Do you remember if it was in 50 dollar bills,
fbndred dollar bills?

A No, I don't. To me that wasn't really relevant.
I cashed it, apparently the denominations by looking at the
photocopies were in hundreds and maybe some other ones I
don't know if the bank gave it back in the same denominations
As will become obvious, I am not a detailed person.

Q You didn't consider this a significant incident?

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A No, I still don't.

0 Do you carry around thousands of dollars in cash
in your pocket?

A No, Mr. Oliver, but when this is going from one
private, from one Nicaraguan to another!

was near and dear to many Members' hearts on the
other side of the aisle and I was, I didn't see anything
improper or wrong and that is why I didn't give it that much
significance. Still don't.

Q What do you mean by both sides of t^e aisle?

^^^^^^^^^^H|^pand very strongly about
this^ and other Members, Members of Congress felt
strongly about it^that moderate, on both sides of th^ aisle
and many Democrats felt

hould be

part of the opposition and if they weren't there was no
legitimacy to it. That was a sort of great friction all the
tiae between Colonel North and myself. He took the side of
Calero and Z was chaunpioning the cause of

^^^^^,__j people he thought were sort of
wimps, and Ire epologises for the Sandinistas.

At any rate, I felt that
was not only just but it was correct, and there was nothing
improper about it. So I did not — my job was just to get

642

nmfsssffm

the money

Q Let's go back^to IXP for a moment. What were your
duties as Deputy? Could you sort of describe for the record
what your responsibilities were?

A Well, they changed from moment to moment.
There was a job description that sits in the personnel office,
but that was about as relevant as anybody else's in the
State Department. Originally it was to be, serve as a
liaison with the Public Liaison Office at the White House.
Later on it expanded to working with — the H Bureau of
the State Department —

Q would you explain what that is?

A The Legislative Affairs H Bureau. Later on it
expanded to working with affairs at the NSC. We would go
through every few months runups on whether there was going tc
be funding for the Nicaraguan opposition or not. Later
on it took — it continued to expand. A lot of it was

JlUfl

643

jsmtKssxaiBt

mlO

also just serving, since Otto was so involved in going out
and speaking on Donohue or Nightline or whatever, was
actually also serving as the front office liaison with a
good deal of the rest of the staff. Had to spend a lot of
time with people putting speakers out. And also in, on the
mashed potato circuit, these were government speakers.
It took on a myriad of duties and they kept continuing to
expand. ' ta'.v ■ toe; .^o..:r,,' '; ^,

Q Here you in charge when Otto was out of the
office? - ■ ^

A No. " "..' tor ;

Q Who was?

A Well, nine times out of ten it was, unless
DuBose or Blacken were out, and they were always — they
were always the principal deputy, I was never considered
principal deputy, so only unless both Otto and DuBose and
Blacken were gone would I be in charge.

Q Was DuBose still there when Blacken ceune on?

A No, there was a gap. t 4" >'

Q Was DuBose a career Foreign Service officer?

A Yes.

Q And Blacken was a career Foreign Service officer?

A Yes. Still is.

Q Besides yourself, were there any other Schedule Cs
or political employees besides you and Otto Reich in LPD?

644

WfiLASn^

^"^

mil

28
There

A There were one or two aeheduled from AID.
were no other Schedule Cs on the State Department —

Q Who were the Schedule Cs?

A One was a woman named Janis Barbieri, who handled
mostly bookings of Administration '■a books and the media.
And another was Mary Catherine English, who was an editor.
She mostly edited the myriad of publications LPDD. I don't
think, but I can't be bound by it, there were any other
Schedule Cs. !

Q Vlhat was your working relationship with Oliver
North?

MH. CHRISTMAS: What point in time, sir?
MR. OLIVER: From the time he came to LPD.
THE WITNESS: I didn't know him at first, didn't
meet him until sonetime in early '84.

Originally we — I didn't really get to know him
at all until at some point we started working on another
legislative runup «rtiere NSC pulled together people from
DoO, State and everybody else and they would say we are
going to go to the Hill, we need these documents, things
like that, and we were called on to be the geftejnex .
BY MR. OLIVER: *^

Q Which documents are you talking about?

A These are mostly, you know, things that would be
in the press, publications that we had pulled together.

645

inl2

^^mm

We would put together a book to rebuttals proponents were
making, anticipatory stuff, things like that. We were
always quicker in responding than the public affairs section
of the State Department. In fact, the Legislative Affairs
people, people like Ed Fox, thought we were so good we
were just, they said this is what we need, go out and get
the information. That is when I think —

Q What kind of information?

A You know, how many prisoners are kept in
Sandinista prisons, how many arms have been delivered,
what is the present, best estimate, which is very difficult
because we kept getting different answers of Sandinista
troop strength, things like that. That is when I think I
first started working with North. ,(

The reason I ended up spending a little more time with
North than I ever anticipated is because rather early on in
'84 Arturo Cruz, Jr., and I beceune good friends, and
Arturo felt that the former Seuidinistas that were part
of the opposition were getting very short shrift from the
Administration and they were bending over backwards to
support people like Enrique Bermudez and Calero. And I ended
up sort of going hat in hand and arguing with Ollie a lot.
That is when we first started.

Q Do you remember who introduced you to Oliver

North?

UNCLilSSinEiL

646

lammw

ml 3

A I think it may have been' Otto when we yere over at
the Old Executive Office Building for a meeting with Faith
Whittlesey or Walt Raymond or somebody. It was a casual
introduction.

0 Did you participate in the regular meetings of
the Central American Public Diplomacy Working Group at the
NSC?

A I keep hearing that name venting around, I'm not
sure vhat that is. " :, ,

Q That's the meeting that took place on a weekly
basis in Walt Raymond's office.

A If that's what it was called. We never called it
that. I would go to Walt's almost every week, yes.

Q Who else participated in those meetings?

A It was a sort of circular door. Sometimes he
would get drop bys by Constantine Henges literally. Some-
times he wouldn't show up at all. Sometimes Ollie would
show up for a few minutes and take off. Usually it ended
Wft being Halt, myself, occasionally John Blacken, Otto,
occasionally some people from USXA. That would be about it.

Q Were there people there from CIA there also?

A There may have been from time to time, but not on
a regular basis. I can't preclude they were there, but
they were not what I call regulars because public diplomacy
operation was not held in high esteem by people like

nun Teinr.-^

647

ml 4

"3
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wciw»t6

Q Old he participate in those meetingi?
"A He may have been there on one or two occasions.
I can't preclude it. I don't want a perjury charge thrown
at me. I don't remember.

Q What was the purpose of those weekly meetings?

A It was primarily to coordinate — there was a
great deal of frustration with the ability — we thought
we were getting our heads handed to us on a platter by what
we reoeived — originally it was more involved with El
Salvador than Nicaragua, later on by the Sandinistas who.
were very, very good at public Infbraation.

There was a frustration at the White House that
we weren't getting the — countering it significantly
enough and the result was frustration on the part of Aobassa-
dor Reich. The State Department had a tendency to work in a
Muilahsef-llke environment. So the purpose of the meetings
was to primarily klbutz because Walt Raymond, there was no
set agenda. Halt Raymond was the international public
diplomacy person at the NSC. Walt had other meetings that
were just the seuoe with different parts of the State Department,
/ab&ssador HeUman from the Political Bureau of the
State Department would meet with Walt every week on other
parts of things, whether it was Radio Marti or something goii
on in^^^^^^^^^H So it wasn't unique, we weren't the

648

fKtttKsmsF

ml 5

only group meeting with them.

Q This group you participated in was primarily
directed towards Central America, is that correct?

A Yes. Yes.

Q When did you first meet Walt Raymond?

A Early '84. I can't be more precise than that.
It was right after the Christmas holidays I would think.
It was kind of lost time when I first came on board.

Q What was his job? '

A Special Assistjuit to the President for something,
something like international communications.

Q Were you aware of any connection he had with any
intelligence agencies?

I was aware he was a former employee of the

CIA.

How did you become aware of that?

I think he told me.

What did he tell you he had done in the CIA?

I don't know. To this day I still don't know.
We are indoctrinated early on on a need to know basis.
If I'm not told I don't ask. I didn't have any idea. I
later worked with Walt, he was a good friend and I still
don't know what he did in the Agency.

Q In these meetings did you discuss the declassifica-
tion of intelligence documents, review some public diplomacy

IIMP-I flSSmEQ.

649

UNCtffSStFJtD^

ml6

activities?

A That would come up from time to time. I didn't
normally take the lead in that. That was mostly a conversa-
tion, conversations that would occur between Otto and
different people of the NSC, and different people at the
State Department for that reason. He just didn't work
solely with the National Security Council.

Q Were those discussions at that meeting about
declassification documents with representatives of the CIA?

A I know Otto may have had conversations with them.
He did on the phone, on the secure phone. That infamous
phone Chairman Fascell brought up. Conversations occurred
all the time about that. And they were with Agency people
because the Agency had to authorize those things. But I
can't preclude that they weren't discussed with Agency
personnel in Walt Raymond's office at a certain time. They
were discussed in all sorts of manner, always in a secure
manner.

Q And were these — did these conversations and
discussions result in the declassification of documents
and information?

A I think they did, but I cannot tell you right
now that thlse docximentb was done by — there were for
instance —

Q I am just asking in a general sense.

imfiOSSIKEQT

ml 7 ^

2
3
4
5
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7
8
9
10

11
12
13

1^
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

mmm

A Yes. There were others the ultimate — the
Public Diplomacy Office ultimately had printed, included an
awful lot of declassified information. Mostly — as an
example, aerial photos of military installations in
Nicaragua.

Q Are these documents or this information, would the
purpose be to be included in the LPD publications, op ed
pieces?

A
instance, you could show a graphic exeunple of Md^helicop-

To be released on the press generally. If ,^, for

4/ ^^

MWh«

ters, and this is a possible hypothetical, on the runway of
Punta Hu€|be, that was the type of thing we felt, and we
were the big proponents of declassifying as much as
possible. There is a tendency within the intelligence
community they didn't want any of that stuff released. We
would push for that sort of thing. And if it was —
-Mart felt it would be better if it were released to the
networks after it had been fully declassified, that might
hmv a better impact in a certain case than publications.
Publications were not the sole source.

Q How did you release these documents once they had
been declassified, this information? ^^

A ;^irbassador Reich or Ambassador BlaMkai or IXiBose oculd tell
you better, I didn't handle it. That was almost
exclusively, especially when John got on board, John's

unci assiiL'ia

651

QtdftiESiffiBt'

end mas
-nd lA

ml8 ^

•.-,.■■•.'. 3

.■3c »j.':4,!

- ■ ■ , •» r '^

•';• i. •.«.•

i- 10
11
12
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24
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bailiwick.

Q Was this information made available to Mark
Richard?

A I think it was. I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Q What was Mark Richard's job there?

A Well, when he first started with us he was a
Colonel in the Air Force, and I cun not sure where he came
from, he did have an intelligence background as well as a
pilot. Later he beceune consultant after he retired from
the Air Force. He worked extensively with the press.

•x^^'t li*^

t£;i.-> .1 . -i ■/', 3' . ■■ 1 :■ ', =

UNCI A.<(.<(iF;pn

652

inoEASsmiBT

Q When you say that Mark Richards briefs the
press, what was the format in which he did that?

A I don't ^no\<-. He was sort of secretive about
what he did, but usually he would have them into his office,
which is on the fifth floor of the State Department, and
talk to then, but I was never with or privy to one of those
meetin9S .

Q People from the Bureau of Public Affairs were
informed of these briefings?

A I really don't know. We did talk about an awful
lot to ARA, but we didn't talk as much to public affairs.
Public affairs was not really, especially if you take
public affairs is divided into two different universes,
-end the spokesman A<U^ wMatk was worried about the minute-
by-mlnute activity. Chuck Redman, or whatever, and then
there was the bureau that had a tendency to do traditional
things, put speakers on the road, work on SALT agreement
■■t«rial, things like that, and they frankly thought of us
•• an unneeded operation, and the communications, to be
frank, batwaen Public Affairs Bureau and us ware not
necessarily always clear.

We felt that our naad was to communicate more on
substance with the ARA Bureau.

Q Isn't it true that ARA was specifically excluded
from Central American working group on public diplomacy

653

ttKM/t/»$tf%6f

in the White House?

A No, because they were invited. They chose in
many cases not to attend, but they were invited.

Who was invited?

-)^

A I know for one that Dick CjIJuilII was invited,
and he was at that time Deputy Assistant Secretary of State
for Inter-American Affairs for congressional activities,
and we worked very, very closely with the Public Affairs
Office of ARA, with Gilbert Ii»4i***4-1 ," and Greg Lagana and
those people. I probably spent more time in Greg Lagana 's
office than I did in my own.

Q Were you involved in the arrangement of consulting
contract for Mark Richards Associates?

A I don't know what you mean specifically about
that, because I didn't handle, although I will show up on
some of the Frank Gomez contracts as whatever that thing
is called, representative, that was always handled by our
administrative people. I was aware that Mark Richards and
Associates had a contract, but I didn't handle the actual
work. That was done with our administrative people, whether
it was Matthew Freedman or Frank Gardner, and then it went
to contracts and then it went to the legal people, but I
had a general knowledge.

Q Were you aware that Mark Richards was negotiating
to retire and become a consultant while he was on detail

»• 1

imgkaflAM

Taiffl^P-

654

wcrasHfiegT

1 to LPD?

2 A I would probably say yes.

3 Q Did you ask anyone whether or not that was an

4 appropriate thing for him to be doing?

5 A Well, roost of the discussions — I'm not trying

6 to shift the blame — were held with Ambassador Reich, but

7 I also assumed the reason we had a plethora of lawyers and

8 contract people at the State Department was to do that sort

9 of thing. You don't employ a first baseman to pitch, and

10 that wasn't my area.

11 Q Were you aware that Mark Richards as a detailee

12 from the Air Force changed to the president of Mark Richards

13 Associates, a consultant, which had a consulting contract

14 with LPD and occupied the same office and the same desk

15 and did the same job without any interruption in service?

16 A I would say substantially yea.

17 Q What was your relationship to Mark Richards'

18 consulting contract at LPD?

19 A You have the benefit of the paper that I don't.

20 When I walked out of the State Department, I didn't tzJce

21 any paper with me, nor did I destroy any paper, but I don't

22 know, and I don't know even if I was put down as a technical

23 representative or for anything else.

24 Q Do you know what the duties of a technical

representative are?

655

A No, I don't now. I may have at the time, but I
don't now.

Q Did you certify to the contracts office that
Mr . Richards had performed the work and asked them to pay
him on a regular basis?

A If you have a photostat that says I did, I guess
I did.

Q I am just asking whether or not you remember.
A I don't recall specifically.
Q Did Nark Richards report to you?
A No, I don't think — in fact, I complained to
Ambassador Reich that on occasion, I'm not sure that Mark
reported to anybody, but he did not report to me.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Jonathan Miller Exhibit No. 1. It is a
group of documents that relates to contracts in the State
Department LPD Bureau, with Mark Richards Associates.

MR. CHRISTMAS; I believe this is Exhibit No. 2
because the order was number one.

MR. OLIVER: Thank you, counsel. It is Exhibit
No. 2.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 2

was marked for identification.)

BY MR. OLIVER:

Q The first page of this exhibit is a memorandum

UNCLASSIRED

'16

from you to Anita Brown.

A Right.

Q Is that your signature or your initials next to
your name there?

A It looks like it, yes.

Q And do you remember sending this memorandum
requesting the payment of $9,240?

A I won't dispute that this is my signature.
MR. CHRISTMAS: The question is, do you
remember? " -i ^ ^,'

THE WITNESS: I don't remember specifically.
BY MR. OLIVER: I' '

Q Does this document help you refresh your memory
as to whether or not youfient this forward?

A It looks like I did. I'm not disputing.

Q If you will turn to the fourth page of this
exhibit, there is, I believe it is an amendment to a
contract for media consultant services, and it indicates
tlaiK* that Mr. JoKathan Miller of the Department's Office
of the Coordinator for Public Diplomacy for Latin America
and the Caribbean shall serve as the contracting officer's
technical representative in lieu of Matthew Freedman for
this contract. ' ;?

Do you recall being the technical representative
for Mark Richards and Associates?

iimri Accir^f n

"82-722 656

657

nNRfonmr

A I guess I was. Mr. Freedman^ at the time he
departed, did all sorts of things in the way of changing
records, and all sorts of people got assignments, because
of Mr. Freedman's departure to the private sector, and I
have no reason to dispute this at all.

Q What did you do as the technical representative?

A Well, in the cases where I would receive initial
memos, in the general case it would be reviewed by our
administrative people, and if they didn't see anything

.proper a

.proper and it looked proper to me, I would certify it and
send it up to the management people, or it went through
y&BX through the management people.

Q If you will turn to the —

A Although I have got to say in one case that is not
my signature.

Q What case is that?

A The January 4, 1985.

Q That is not your signature?

A That is not mine.

Q Did someone sign it for you? !

A I assume so. ...

Q Was someone authorized to sign your name?

A To the best of my knowledge, I never executed
anything like that.

Q Was someone authorized to sign your neune orally?

ilNri iccir^ca

658

rl 9

;^^^l

A I don't think so. I can'^t swear by it, but I
don't think so. :., .>-i- ^.t ;'fc ,bei -i-.cr't; ' S
T"- Q If you will turn to the — , q

'Of? s.'-v-. MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse just a moment, if you
don't mind. Thank you. . , -. <, - ^ -, ,. ^
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q If you will turn to the sixth to the last page in
this exhibit, which is headed "Section G Contract Adminis-
tration Data," it indicates there that you are designated
as the contracting officer. ^ ^ . ,.' ; -.

""*"'. ^J ■

A Right. . , „,.„ :i -v

Q Technical representative?

A Right. o,

Q In matters concerning technical clarification,
inspection and acceptance, and it indicates that you will
coordinate all the work with contractor and review the
contractor's performance at significant stages of its
development. Did you do that?

A In the Mark Richards case, I can't affirm or
deny that I did this. I would say in a general manner,
I did, but I did an awful lot of things in the office on a
daily basis, but I would say generally I may have.

Q You don't know whether you did this job or not?

A I'm saying generally that I did know. You can
question with the benefit of hindsight whether I did a

e benefit or ninasignt wnet

UkCLASSIF!FJI

659

ufRsa^pn^T

1
2

4
5

7
8
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10
11
12
13
14
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17
18
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good job, but I assume that I did do this job, especially
if I initialed those documents.

Q On the January 4th memorandum, is your testimony
that that is not your signature on there, on that memorandum
to Tony Hawkins, on payment for an oustanding bill?

A This may be splitting hairs. This looks like
mine. The one to Anita Brown beneath it is not, but it's
probably irrelevant since I certified. One of them is my
signature and the other isn't.

Q Isn't it true that in order for Mark Richards to
be paid, you as the technical representative would have to
certify his work?

A It appears to be that is the case.

Q Do you remember whethexpr not you were required
to certify his work?

A If I was whatever, the technical representative,
I have to certify his work. I know that much.

Q So in effect, if he was paid, you certified
that he had carried out the terms of his contract?

A I have to take the responsibility for it.

MR. CHRISTMAS: The question was, Mr. Miller,
do you know if you actually did certify or not?
THE WITNESS: I assume that I did.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q You will note in here further on through'

i further on through tn^^

660

mtKsmESF

2
3

exhibit correspondence on the letterhead of Mark Richards
and Associates signed by Carolyn Richards, secretary— '
treasurer, addressed in each instance to you.

Did you receive these requests for payments from
Carolyn Richards?

MR, CHRISTMAS: You are talking about each
specific request, sir, or are you talking about generally
did he receive requests. ' '

BY MR. OLIVER: ' ' ^

Q Generally. ' ' ■ ■■ - ■ . , . > : /,
A Generally I think they came in the mail, but I
can't swear by it, whether they were hand delivered or came
in the mail, and I would immediately hand them to our
administrative people.

Q If you will turn to the document dated February 26,
1985, it is about halfway through this exhibit, it is a
memorandum to Mr. George F. Touhy from Frank Gardner,
subcontractor for Mark Richards Associates , and it says in
ttM bottom, next to the last paragraph, "Service to be
rendered by Mark Richards Associates are critical to our
public diplomacy strategy, and in improving the public's
perception of U.S. policy in Central America for the
Caribbean. " }' i ;

It goes on to say that you will serve as the
technical representative. And on the next page its

:ative. And on tne next pc

661

1
2

3^.

iJUM-ttfiuyn)

sole-source justification attached.

MR. CHRISTMAS: The third page.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Why were the services to be rendered by Mark
Richards Associates critical to our public diplomacy
strategy?

A The perception, I didn't reach this decision,
but the feeling was that Mark Richards had unique talents,
and that we were having very strong difficulty in getting
detailees from agencies that had certain public diplomacy
expertise, and I think that what the Department of Defense
was willing to provide us was not a person that had the
capabilities of Mark Richards. That is the background in
both Defense public affairs and intelligence, and I think
that that was th« rationale for Mark or part of it. That
wasn't my decision when he ceased to be an active-duty
member of the Air Force.

Q How did he ijq>rove the public's perception of
O.S. policy in Central America?

A He had very, very good relations with an awful
lot of reporters that he had built up over the years in the
defense area, and it was felt that we could continue to
utilize those unique assets, that it would help us get
our message out.

Q Was the Bureau of Publi<

llNCLASSfF:^)

'ublic Affairs aware or ms

6@2

nmismf^

yos:;-. f

briefing of these journalists?

A I can't tell you one way or the other.

Q Was there somebody else supervising his work
besides you?

A Ambassador Reich.

Q He reported to Ambassador Reich rather than
to you?

A In most cases, although, as I have admitted,
there were times that we had to rein Mark in. I felt that
there were times that he was a little too easy, you know,
wanting to get stuff out before the fact that we had

i:ir'^^

properly UcJalmi everything.

Q Would you el2iborate everything? What do you mean
by reining him in? And what had he done that wasn't proper?

A There wasn't anything that he did that I was aware
of. What he had proposed sometimes he was so anxious — the

shelf life on intelligence roattersi> it was a delicate
bAance, shelf life in intelligence matters is rather short,
but by the same token, we had to protect sources and methods
and our idea was to properly declassify as rapidly as
possible. He was frustrated by that and there were times
that Mark would threaten to go public before we declassified
certain things, and that is what I _was worried about, when
I said we had to rein him in.

Q What do you mean by threat to go public?

. was worriea aoout, wnen

UNCLASSIF'ED

663

.. .3.
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9

l^^^OJT^gT

A Well, I mean he would not go public, but he would
threaten to go out and get something before we had finished
declassification.

Q Who would he threaten?

A He wculd say, this is stupid, you know, this is
why the bureaucracy is so horrible, I'm going to do X, Y,
Z, and I said you can't do that. You know, this operation
will be shut down immediately if you go around giving out
information that hasn't been declassified.

Q Did he ever give out information that had not
been declassified?

A I cannot tell you for a fact on that.

Q Your testimony is he just threatened to, but you
have no knowledge that he ever did?

A I have no knowledge that he did, but I can't
preclude anything^

Q Do you remember any specific instance when any
classified information appeared in the media that emanated
fro« LPD or from Mark Richards?

A I don't recall specific instances.

Q Do you recall any specific instance?

A I recall a specific instance of things leaking
out all the time from both the Executive and Legislative
Branches, and from both the White House and the State

Department.

UNCLASSlF'i^

664

1ttlfil<AS§i!l^

Q My question was whether or not you remember a
specific instance where there was any information that came
from LPD.

A The answer is, I cannot specifically.

Q And who provided Mr. Richards with this classified
information?

A He would read in the daily briefing. We had a
daily briefing from Intelligence and Research Bureau, which
was totally authorized by the' OODK, and at 11 o'clock every
morning we would have an intelligence briefing officer come
in and brief those of us that had the proper clearances.

Q As his technical representative, did you arrange
for Mark Richards to have a security clearance?

A He had the security clearance when he was at the
Air Force and I asked our administrative people to handle
that, but I myself would not be dealing with it.

Q What do you mean to handle it?

A Well, we hire administrative people to do those
sorts of things. I asked that his classifications be
transferred and updated when he ceased to be an active-
duty member of the Air Force.

Q How much time did that take?

A I don't really know, because sometimes it was
quick and sometimes it was very slow. In my case, I got
■clearance immediately.

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Q What do you mean by inunediately?

A Within hours. I don't know why. The request went
in to INR. It wasn't handled by me.

you you had H^^^^^^^^^^^^lwithin
hours?

A I was told by the briefer from intelligence. I
had to go to a briefing that was put together by INR, and
I certified after I had gone to the briefing, they said
you now have

Q Why did you need^^^^^^^B::learance?

A It was felt that there was an awful lot of data
that was coming in , ^^^^^^^^^^BB^^^^^^^B^^^^^^^^^^B

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^n h a t
we should be privy to, so that we could then attempt to get
the word out and go through declassification. I frankly
think it made a lot of sense. There weren't that many
people in the office that had)

Q Who else had ^^^^^^Hclearance besides youl
A John Blacken, obviously before John Blacken,
Dub©** did, Larry Tracy, later Colonel Jacobowitz did.
I think that may have been —

Q Did Mark Richards havel

nwriflgcir'cn

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1 Q But you don't remember?

2 A No, I can't specifically say that I saw him come

3 in with a certification.

* Q You would have known it, wouldn't you? You were

5 his supervisor. ' '.

6 A No, but the administrative people would have.

7 If you are asking in hindsight, should I have followed up,

8 that is very possible, but, no, I would not have necessarily.

9 Q On page 2 of the contract dated February 26, 1985,

10 there is a list of tasks that the contractor will perform,

11 and there are five of them listed there, and No. 5 says,

12 "Under the guidemce of, and when authorized by -9iin), will

13 release privileged information, on a selective basis, to the

14 media."

15 What does that mean? ''

15 A I can only assume, because I did not write this,

17 although I am down for a clearance even though I didn't

18 cl«ar it, that this means possibly that after it has been

19 daclassified, we would give information on a sole-source

20 basis, because if you were sending, if you called up ABC,

21 NBC and CBS and gave them the same information, you may not

22 get it out, but if you said, "You have an exclusive," a

23 policy that is understood at this end of Pennsylvania

24 Avenue as well, that somebody is going to run with it a

25 little harder. I think that may be what that means, but

667

VNfiMKfffflDT

I did not draw this up.

Q You were the technical representative in all
instances on these contracts, and you were supposed to, if
you were doing your job, to supervise what was going on
there —

A I leave it up to you.

MR. CHRISTMAS: There is no question pending.
Counsel is only stating his personal opinion.

MR. OLIVER: I'm trying to determine, counsel,
whether or not he performed this function as technical
representative which he was required to.

MR. CHRISTMAS: That is not your question. Your
question was a statement. You should have asked, this was
your job.

MR. OLIVER: If you will let me finish, I will
get to the question.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Counsel, I have objected to your
qottstion.

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q What is privileged information?
A I don't know. I didn't draft this.
Q You cleared it, didn't you?

A That is not my initial either. I don't know.
I gave you, if you will look back at the transcript, an
interpretation which I probably shouldn't even have done in

1 I probably shouian't ever

laiiri jiccinciL

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UROtASfitftS^

that regard, but I cannot tell you actually what that means.
These are buzz words done by administrative people.

Q When it says under the guidance of and authorized
by-STFD ~ s - ■ -* .-■; t-,.', -■ ■ ■.:■ ^.y :; *

A Right . :. ' -

Q — who was it contemplated in this contract would
give that guidance and tKJuld authorize?

A It would have to be authorized by Ambassador
Reich.

Q Why do you say that?

A Because he was the boss. That sort of stuff has
to be made by (tlUs boss , and we are not that large an
operation. We were not that large an operation, and that
would have to be, if he was going to go to an ABC or
Newsweek or something that would have to be authorized by

Ambassador Reich. ' -' "» > '.' • •; -"

if
Q As I look at — ' I . Xt

A However, I find it interesting that no questions
were raised by the contracting people at the State Depart-
ment about it.

Q As I look through all of this material, these
contracts, the vouchers, the memorandums certifying the
work has been done, asking for payment —

A No, that is different.

Q What I'm

, <l

ou indicate that Otto

669

WUtt>AS6(FIB&ir

Reich would have had to do this, in your previous answer.
Otto Reich isn't mentioned in here emywhere, but you are
mentioned as the official technical representative, you are
the person authorizing the payments.

My question is, is it your testimony that this
function was not, that you were not involved in this
function, that only ~ I'm talking about No. 5 — that only
Otto Reich was involved in this function?

A I'm saying Mo. 5, I have read E. B. VThite, No. 5
does not say Jonathan Miller, the technical representative.
No. 5, in a small shop like ours, was something like what
I referred to, released privileged information, is some-
thing that should not be done by a technical representative.
It should be done by the head of the otti.S^, and I would
never have authorized that unless Ambassador Reich was
aware of it and concurred. That is all I'm saying.

0 Old you ever authorize the release of privileged
information on a selective basis by Mark Richards?

A I don't recall ever doing that, unless —

Q Did Otto Reich ever?

A It is very —

Q To your knowledge?

A It is very conceivable.

Q Authorize the release of privileged information

on a selective basis?

«NcyssiE£a

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A It's very conceivable that he authorized declassi-
fied information on a selective basis that could be construed
as "privileged." That is possible.

Q Mr. Miller, you have certified to the contracts
office that this work has been performed. In this contract
this is one of the tasks, and you certified that the work
had been performed, and asked for payment. .,: ■ '

Are you saying that you did not, that you do not
know or did not know whether or not this work was performed?

A I'm saying that I do not recall specifically on
No. 5. In general, if I certified it, then I was saying
that he provided those tasks. You know, you must have a
tremendous sense of recall that I don't possess, and I
admire you for it, but I do not specifically remember No. 5,
but if I certified on a monthly basis that he did those
things, then he must have done those things.

Q Do you remember or recall whether or not Mark
Richards or etnybody else in LPD leaked information to the
pr««s about Central America? r 'j ^,

A I don't recall any specific case. I may have
had suspicions in certain cases that all sorts of people
within the Department of State as well as everywhere else
did, but I do not specifically recall, nor am I aware nor
did I authorize a leak.

UNCLASSIF!ED

Q Did you ever leak any information to the media?

671

A I think to be totally honest on a couple of
occasions I did.

Q Was this information classified information?

A In one specific case I think it was.

Q Who did you leak that information to?

A I'm not sure, but I think it may have been to
someone at National Public Radio. • ,

Q And what was the subject or substance of the
information?

A It was about the use, ironically, and very, very
ironic, the use

Q Where did you get that information?

A I got it from I think the INK briefing.

Q Do you remember any other occasions on which
you leaked classified information?

A No.

Q What was the procedure for —

A Declassification?

Q Declassification of the material that Mark
Richards utilized?

A The request could go — I didn't handle them,
but my general knowledge is the request could go through
the Intelligence and Research Bureau, or it could go
directly to the CIA , or occasionally, if things were

UUAL UUUUCIL

1
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6 tf

necessary to be declassified rather rapidly, a request would
possibly go on the secure line to the NSC and the NSC
would handle it.

Q Who at the NSC would handle it?

A Sometimes Walt Raymond, sometimes ConstantinC 1^/|«<C

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Durgeys, sometimes Ollie North, but certification would
have to come back through channels through the NSC or the
State Department, but I didn't personally handle those
things. Most occasions they were handled by John Blacken
or Otto Reich, but I knew the general channel in which
you did it.

Q Did Mark Richards send these materials to you for
clearance before he gave them to the media?

A Yes, on certain occasions I know he sent material
up the line.

Now, I cannot tell you, as I have said before,
that I'm omniscient and say that he did it in all cases.

Q When you say up the line, what was the line?

A Give it to me or give it to Otto. He would call
cables and say, "We've got to get this out," and send it
to INR and say, "Can we get this." It was oiv

showing up^^^^^^^^^^^hat had been transshipped for
Nicaragua, and things like that.

Q And do you recall any instances in which
(ipr'i 3 <5<5i fi ration of information was ever denied?

UNCl4SSfF?ED

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A Yes. I can't tell you what they were. We
recognized that we weren't going to bat a thousand, and that
there were sources and methods. There had to be. We would
appeal a lot, but we didn't win them all by any stretch of
the imagination.

Q Do you remember any instances in which you sought
declassification and were denied and appealed and were
denied?

A I'm sure they happened, but I can't tell you
specifically.

Q You can't remember any specific instances?

A No.

Q All of this information I assume pertained to
Central America?

A Oh, we didn't deal in anything else.

Q Did you get a reguleu: cable take every day at
LPD from the —

A The OPS center?

Q From the OPS center. Did you also get a CIA
take every day?

A No, we would get the INR extract that the INR
Bureau felt was relevant for us, and it did not include,
specifically we went over backwards to make sure it didn't
cover any other part of the world, because they felt it
wasn't relevant to our activities.

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Q Did you have any CIA detailees?
A No. That was a specific —

MR. CHRISTMAS: Counsel hasn't finished his
question. I'm sorry.

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q At LPD?

A That was discussed on several occasions by Otto,
and he felt that it would be very, very — it would hurt
our credibility, if we had agency people there, because of
the perception of agency people, and so he said he never
wanted to have agency people on the LPD rolls.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 3.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 3
was marked for identification.)

MR. OLIVER: Let the record show that Exhibit

^orH' ^

Chrl(<,^K~mS

No. 2 has approximately" two pages, according to Mr. T»lll«.'i
count, which I will accept.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q I would like to ask the witness to examine
Exhibit No. 3, which contains five pages, the first page
of which is an organizational chart, the Office of Latin
American Diplomacy, as of November, 1983.

Mr. Miiler, did you ever see this chart before?
A I don't think so. I don't recall it. There

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675

UNOMSfifflGDr

was so much going on at this point in time, and I think
I may not have actually physically been there at the time.
I don't remember it.

Q Did you ever see it at any time or don ' t you
recall?

A I may have, because the names —

MR. CHRISTMAS: It pertains to the chart itself.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q The chart itself.

A I can't say one way or the other, I'm sorry.

Q In looking at the chart, does this chart
represent to your knowledge the organization of SLPD?
MR. CHRISTMAS: At what point in time, sir?
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q At the point in time in which he became familiar
with the organization.

A No, it did not.

Q What differs from this chart and the actual
os9«nization of SLPD as you knew it?

A There was no intelligence community liaison,
and there was no congressional affairs position. I think
basically that's it. I mean the secretaries may have
been different, but those two boxes were never filled.

Q You indicated at one point earlier in your
testimony that you were having difficulty in getting

676

1MWIASSIRE7

detailees from other agencies. Why were you having that
difficulty?

A Well, everybody had difficulty in the Federal
Government. We used to have difficulty getting detailees
at the White House. Nobody wants to give up anybody,
especially if they are competent and the ones they are
willing to give you you have got a question as to whether
they were being off-loaded, so it was a natural bureaucratic
thing.

We didn't feel we were being singled out, plus
we were an anomaly, an interagency instead a£ an NSC
directive, but it was housed at the State Department, and
so we were of sort of questionable parentage, so it was
always, it came in the middle; in addition it came in the
middle of the assignment cycle, which was very, very
difficult, so there were all sorts of reasons, which were
pretty xinderstandable.

Q But for the most part, wasn't LPD primarily
staffed by detailees from other agencies?

A Oh, yes, that is true.

Q Did you have any assistauice from the White
House in obtaining these detailees?

A I don't have any recall in that area. I don't
think so.

Q Weren't you the liaison with the White House?

(iNCLASSIFIED

677

A I personally didn't, and I don't think Otto did
either. I think we dealt in channel.

Now, are you talking about the White House or
the NSC? I don't mean to split hairs.

Q That's all right. Go ahead and split them.
If you would like to make a distinction between the two,
please do.

A That is what I was, because once I took the
management job at the White House, I recognized that they
were different, different appropriations and everything
else. We didn't go to the White House seeking help. It's
very conceivable — in fact, I would say it's probable --
that Otto on numerous occasions would cry on Walt Raymond's
shoulders and say, "We're not getting the bodies." And
since Walt was the sort of international public diplomacy
officer —

Q He was sort of the person you reported to,
UD did at the White House?

A At NSC.

Q At NSC?

A Yes.

Q And then were you aware of Walt Raymond being
of assistance in breaking loose these detailees that you
needed?

A I know that, for instance, he would talk to

UNCLASSIFIED

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TtflfCI

people at State about bring State people on board, and he
talked to people at USIA about bringing USIA people on
board. We didn't need to have him talk to AID because I
had better relations with AID than he did, so I was the one
that dealt with AID. I don't know who handled the Defense
Department, but those were the thre^ agencies that contri-
buted above and beyond State "and USIA, OoD and AID.

Q In this chart, it has notes, "Senior adviser
DoD detail Tracy." What were the duties of the senior
adviser?

A Theoretically Colonel Tracy was to focus on
things like the military buildup of the Sandinistas,!

I underscore the word "theoretical," because
Larry is in the best sense of a word a gregarious Irish-
Catholic who loves to speak and he was on the potato
circuit all the time. He loved to go out and give speeches.
If there was a forum with Ray Bonner or Ambassador White,
he would love to, an^ Congregational Church in Vermont that
was going to be contentious, he would love to go speak,
and so he was basically that senior adviser was for Larry's
purposes a title, but he was the number-one speaker of the
public diplomacy operation. He was on the road more than
he was in the office.

Uma^Qic-rr.

679

m&timxm

1 Q Was he on the same level as you and John Blacken,

2 as this chart would seem to indicate?

3 A It was our operation, as you have probably figured

4 out, it was fairly egalitarian. In fact, there was not a

5 lot of deference^"- It was irreverent»~given to Ambassador

6 Reich by the staff. There was a lot of affection, but we tv-

7 really didn't look at levels. I can't say that •*» right

8 or wrong. To me it's irrelevant.

9 Q There is an indication there in one box it says,

10 "Research and information gathering," and in parenthesis,

11 "(position to be established)," and then the name Romero.

12 Vfho was Romero?

13 A Peter Romero had served in a political section of

14 the embassy in El Salvador. He is now, I think, he is a

15 Foreign Service Officer at the Geuwoil General in Naples,

16 but he was the person that would work on gleaning an awful

17 lot of information, and he was the first person to start

18 putting together the books that we did, the publications

19 tlMit we did. Frankly, he is one of the best employees we

20 ever had.
2\ Q I know you said you hadn't seen this chart

22 before, but do you know why it would say on there "the

23 position to be established"? Were you having difficulty

24 getting these positions authorized within LPD? Is that

25 what this signifies?

^ftOUSSlFlFn

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A Which is certainly typical when you create a new
monster out of nothing.

UNCLASSIFIED

681

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imctAsaaEfiT

iHCUsaf

Q So, in effect, you <T1 were trying to create a
bigger Department than someone wanted you to create, is that
right?

A Well, no, I wouldn't agree with that at all. We
had to, and I think it was necessary, to justify each position
and I think that is the way it should be. We did not have
a blank check, and this was, I assume, although I have never
seen it, was a snapshot at one point of where Otto thought
the office should go, and was probably a working paper to
argue with the bureaucratic powers at the ■flMreauD«p«"'V<««>'V ,

There was an awful lot of to-ing and fro-ing, which
is probably good, with the S. Bureau and the M. Bureau with
everybody, what was the proper fit for SLPD.

Q You had already made the decision in November of
1983 to take this job?

A At some point, yes, but I was happily in the
Kalahari Desert in southern Africa.

Q Do you wish you had stayed there?
' A There are many times I wish I were back there.

Q The next couple of pages in this exhibit, the title
page, LPD January 31, 1984, assignments and tasks. Then,
the next page, it says "Taskers J. Miller."

A Yes.

•a;

I assume that is you; is that correct?

Oh, this o^ one of many early on. We had all sorts

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of things like this, which basically were as obsolete when the^
came out, and Otto was very big on this sort of thing, and
no one had time to actually worry about their taskers.
There were tons of these.

Q Did you draft that?

A No.

Q But you have seen this before?

A Oh, yes, I have seen it before. I remember it.

Q So, who would have drafted this piece of paper?

A Gosh, I don't know. It could be Patrice Malone,
who was Otto's Special Assistant at the time. It could be

Otto's Spec

Victor Bonia, a Foreign Service Officer really on loan that
didn't have any other assigned duties.

Q This would come to you like this; is that correct?

A It would be produced by someone on the staff, and
it was abandoned rather quickly, because no one could keep up
with these taskers. He had our plates full.

Q But basically, this would come to you from somebody
jugh this was what you were supposed to do?

A I think it was generated on the basis of things that
Otto would say in out staff meetings, and someone on the staff
would prepare it, and it was on the V*n«, and it would be

i/NCLASSIFfil

updated. '^^f*'^!

It could be by John S«t>*ti. There is another person
I am thinking of. But I frankly, for one, and I wasn't the

683

omimmf

only staff member, did not really pay any attention to it,
because we had enough business doing our jobs.

Q The first one here is dated January 1st, 1984.

A Yes.

Q Then there is another one dated May 17, 1984.

A No.

Q Apparently it wasn't abandoned too quickly.

A Time is relative. It was never ever-except by
Otto-cbnsidered by the staff to be an important thing. As you
already know, as Otto referred to Under Secretary Eaqalcurger ,,
we were sort of like the Dirty Dozen here, a rather irreverent

staffs

Q To otto, irreverent to Otto, or irreverent to who?

A Yes, there was a great love for Otto, but it was
a very informal group. Everybody there was a volunteer. It
was very egalitarian and very atypical bureaucracy. Not
State Department, that is for sure.

Q Let's look at this list a minute, and talk about it
a §ltni minutes. Number one is a plan for briefing State
legislators, which, when, by whom, et cetera. It has besides
it priority H.

A Yes, high.

Q High?

A Medium and low.

High, medium and

loJ

^fiOUSSIFlED

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cs>

22
23
24
25

"' A Monitor FBIS, as an exeunple. That is nximber 10.
I ^m't have enough hours in the day to go through FBIS.

0 Did you develop a plan for briefing State
legislators?

A No, I don't think we ever did. We didn't have time
I mean, we had to look from minute to minute on what was
breaking. We had talked about it, but there never seemed to
be a proper fonom in which we were doing this, plus we had
to, I remember in this case, coordinate with public affairs,
and public affairs was not enamored with the plan.

At the time, there were many, many, many pending
resolutions at State legislatures about our Central American
policy, and there was a perception that — for instance, I
remember the State of Hawaii had some pending legislation,
that the people really didn't understand, and we had considered
at one time whether we should brief them either in the State
or bring them to Washington, and the plan never got off the

•"

^^^Vft When you say high priority for documents, do you kno«
what that referred to?

A Let me tell you what it became later on, but at this
time I can't recall. I was rather green. But I know that
there were Congressmen, especially Newt Gingrich, that had
an insatiable appetite, that were always demanding things
immediately^ " I want to know, as I said, the number of politicc

md 5

imetdDsiEao

prfiibners in Sandinista prisons. I want to know this, I want
to know that. I assumed that that is what that sort of thing
was. They were never ending.

Q What was the priority attached to that?

A Well, Otto felt first and foremost that we had to
provide all the information, because our biggest problem was
misunderstanding on the Hill.

Q But when you say Hill priority list, did that refer
to a list of people on the Hill who had priority over others?

A I can't tell you.

No, I don't think so. I think it was, you know —

Q What was number 4, the media coordinator? Oo you
remember?

A That was to find somebody who was going to handle --
we were getting dozens of requests.^^ (t was later filled by
Janis Barb«L]:c7^ from radio stations and local affiliates and
nowspapers and everything else for spokesmen, and the Public

\ Operation at the State Department said, "Look, we have
seven priorities. Central America is one of them."
We had one person that had to work with PA, and I was doing it
on an ad hoc basis, and I had to go out and find somebody.
Otto kept saying —

Q Number 9 says, "Identify target audiences for
Congress." What does that refer to? IjNCLASSIr I ED

A I don't know. I really don't know. I am not being I

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20
21
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I don't know.

3?r Q It had a high priority, and I thought you might
recall.

A Otto had 88 brilliant ideas every day that had
high priorities. I am sure that you, having worked on the
Hill, are aware that there are members that do the same thing,
and just as you are getting on to one thing, you have got
to work on something else. I cannot tell you.

Q What about "Ideas for Op Ed Pieces," number 11.
What was that aibout?

A There was a feeling, and I didn't end up spending

any time on this, remember at this time there weren't many of

us on board, that we continually needed people to go out

in prestigous — I didn't. chair this with Otto, because I

felt Op Ed pieces outside of the Beltway have zero effects,

that they are primarily ego trips for people inside of

Washington, but there was a feeling that we should have,

ally where we were getting pummelled on ideas like

C '^'^
traa were nothing but a bunch of old Somo^istas,

should have prestigous people like Jeane

Kirkpatrick writing Op Ed pieces for the New York Times,

r ^
The Wall Street Jounal and The Washington Post, et cetera,

r Of-

et cetera, and that was another one of Otab's ideas.

I had strong disagreement with the value of pieces.

He adores them, thought they were very important.

I'MM iioeirirn

687

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Q Did you generate a lot of Op Ed pieces?

A No, I don't think we did. We spent a lot of time
and usually, by the time it got cleared, the Op Ed piece
was ready, it was too late, because it wasn't cleared in an
intelligence sense, but it had to be cleared by the
Public Affairs Bureau, the S. Bureau and ARA and everything
else, and by that point, the moment had passed.

Q Did you contract with outside contractors to
write Op Ed pieces?

A I don't think originally. I know you are going to
get into IBC. That was one of IBC's.

Q I don't know what made you —

MR. CHRISTMAS: Don't give him any ideas. Maybe
we will skip and go over that.

MR. OLIVER: He will get there.
THE WITNESS: At some point. Op Ed pieces were handled
by contractors. To the best of my knowledge, /fewer government

•ials.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Do you have any knowledge of these Op Ed pieces
being written under contract for LPD by private citizens?

A I think so, but I think it was well known in the
Contracting Section at State.

Q Did these Op Ed pieces indicate when they were
written, that they had been paid for or would have been paid

688

md 8

f 21

: 23

> 24
25

WAffSSIRIf

by LPD to do this?

A No, because the feeling was that if appropriated
funds were used for Jonathan Miller to write a piece for
Secretary Shultz or for Frank Gomez to use it, since
contractors were considered legitimate extensions of LPD
at the time — now, we may be engaged in revisionist
interpretation, but at the time, it was considered okay, that
there was no distinction in that regard, and Secretary
Shultz or Congressman Fascell, when they had a piece in The
New York Times, he usually doesn't say the following was
written by X person.

Congressman Fascell usually writes his own?

V<^

Ofr-

I should use^zanother example.

The idea that I am concerned with here is that —

We did not attempt to hide it, no.

Did you pay outside contractors to write Op Ed
pieces which were published without attribution to the
U.S. Government ?

A Would you sort of —

Q What I am saying, would you pay an individual to
write an Op Ed piece, provide him with information, declassifi
information, and pay him $500 or so, as an example, and then
have that fellow publish an article in a newspaper and say,
this is Joe Blow, who is Professor in Podunk, and with no
further identification in terms of being a consultant to LPD?

iiMPi jiccirscn

689

md 9

NTgg

22
23
24
25

IMNlttSfEVEir

A Not that I am aware of. I mean, there may have
been people who did that, and I know, for instance, that
in one or two cases, especially in Costa Rica, Frank
Gomez did write some pieces, but he had said that he was
doing this, these were ideas that he came up with on his own
as a private citizen.

Now, maybe he should have said Mr. Gomez serves
as a consultant at the State Department, but in that
specific case, I remember that I said after the fact, "I have
written this as a private citizen." I cannot tell you where it
was published. I don't even know if it was accepted, if that
is what you are referring to.

Q No, I am not referring to that. I am referring to
your contracting with an individual or individuals to
write for the specific purpose in the contract of writing
Op Ed pieces.

A Under his byline?

Q Under his byline.

A Absolutely not.

l^yPI ACCir>rr\

690

lotson/drg
alee #3
2:30 p.m.

m^fsmm!r

MR. CHRISTMAS: Did he do it?
MR. OLIVER: Did he know aboat it?
MR. CHRISTMAS: Did he know?

MR. OLIVER: I asked him if he knew whether or not
this was done in LPD. , , ./

THE WITNESS: No.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Second question: Did you have anything to do with
it? And your answer is?
A No.

Q There is a reference in here to Parade Magazine
article on Bolonas. What does that refer to?

A I remember Otto using Parade Magazine as an example
of the type of vehicle we should use, like he had done with
Readers Digest. I cannot tell you Bolonas — there were lots
of cases, lots of times, I probeibly should. Parade Magazine
was used as an example all the time. I don't think we ever
successfully got anything into Parade Magazine.

Q Number 12 says, "Coordinate with W/PMC or coordinate
with PMC Re: Korologas and Gray means and objective for OR."
I assume that is Otto Reich. What was PMC?

A I don't know now. I am sure I knew at the time. I
can't tell you. You may be able to refresh me. I obviously
know who Bob Gray is .

Q Why were you supposed to coordinate these meetings.

691

vma/e^RPtiB'

1
2

and what were the objectives?

A Because these are former, are people involved in
the public relations area, and I think Otto wanted to get
ideas on how to undertake this rather new idea. Since I
had at least nominal political background, I would usually

get assigned.

Q Go back to the last page here, which is dated
May 24, and we see number 2, 12, 14, 22, 24 and 25. I
assume that this is your word processor still maintaining
things that had not been done, eliminating things that had
been done, is that correct?

A Yes. I now remember these would get handed out at
staff meetings, and we would sort of cackle and we would
say we haven't done number 22 yet.

Q Who was Jose Cunningham?

A I don't know. I knew at the time. But I don't

know now. It was a low priority, and I will lay you
dollars to donuts I never did it.

Q Was Jose Cunningham a Central American citizen?

A I don't know. 1983- '84 I could have told you.

Q Did you ever raise the Korologos and Gray meetings?

A No. He may have met with Bob Gray on his own,
but I never did.

MR. OLIVER: This is a good time to take a break.

Is 4 5 minutes enough?

(iNCLAS!5!F!Fn

6d2

racfflssvusT

1 THt WITNESS: It is more than enough,

2 MR. OLIVER: Let's try to get back at 1:15.
j3 (Whereupon, at 12:34 p.m., the select committee
4 recessed until 1:15 p.m. the same day.)
5
8
7
8
9

10
11
12
13
14
IS
16
17
18
19

ao.

21
22
23

unclass!f:ed

693

otson/drg
ake «4
: 15 p.m.

TOBiSSffigT

AFTERNOON SESSION
Whereupon ,

JONATHAN MILLER,
resumed the stand as a witness and having been previously
duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows:
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE HOUSE SELECT
COMMITTEE
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Back on the record.

Mr. Miller, I want to ask you about a couple things-,
one I am sure you are aware of and evoked some curiosity.
Secretary Shultz testified before the committee that you
were trying to interfere with his travel plans. Are you
familiar with that statement that was made by Secretary Shultz?

A I am quite familiar. I almost went into cardiac
arrest when I heard him refer to it.

Q Could you tell us why, in your opinion, or what
you know about his allegations that would, or what circum-
stances would have caused him to have made that statement?

A I was a bit flabbergasted when I heard it, for many
reasons, one of which is as Deputy Assistant to the President
for Management, I do not have the authority to approve or
disapprove, or did not have the authority to approve or dis-
approve Presidential missions.

I also, as did my predecessors, made recommendations

694

i»eLfls$ffu^

1 to the Chief of Staff, the Chief of Staff made that decision.

2 All Presidential missions. So, number one, it wasn't, I

3 never would make that final determination. Number two, the

4 Chief of Staff was very close and still is a very close

5 personal friend of the Secretary of State, and at no time was

6 I ever told, and subsequently since I happen to share a

7 suite with Mr. Regan even as we speak, he has said he was

8 ever aware of George Shultz having problems with aircraft;

9 and considering the fact they are, eunong other things,
to golfing buddies, I was a bit flabbergasted the Chief of

fj Staff didn't know about it, but the President of the United
12 States had to be bothered by it.

•J3 Thirdly, I had a good working relationship with

■J4 the Secretary tiA the State Department, and I never received
■J5 any phone calls on that. The actual fact is we, my instruc-
1g tions from the Chief of Staff, as were my predecessor's,
17 was to be very tight on Presidential missions, that they were
1g not to be an excuse to augment these departmental budgets .
^g I became rather infamous in my one year as Deputy

2Q Assistant President for Management to be tight fisted. There
were times I would tell the Chief of Staff he couldn't use
the U.S. Air Force jet. There were times my former boss,
Jim Baker, was informed Treasury would have to pay for things.
I did not single out the Secretary of State, and I agree with

Chief of Staff Regan's assumption this was primarily a turf

695

li])@E)l§Sfp^'^

1 battle, and knowing the State Department bureaucracy, I felt

2 that probably was something the Secretary was misimiormed

3 on, and I think he sort of later in testimony realized there

4 was a tempest in the tea pot.

5 The long and short of it is I think the Secretary

6 was mistaken and given bad information by staff.

7 Q You never denied his request for an airplane?

8 A No, the Secretary of State has never gone on a

9 mission without a U.S. Air Force jet. Questions came up

10 as to whether the State Department should pay or the Department

11 of Defense. That is a question of whether it is a Presidential

12 mission. The Secretary of State was always handled in a

13 memorandum to the Chief of Staff. The same with the

14 Secretary of Treasury, H^ — there were times I would

15 recommend that — Ed Meese, when going to Europe, had the

16 Justice Department pay for an Air Force jet or he would go

17 commercial. I did not single the Secretary out. I am a

18 Scotsman by background, and I am very tight fisted.
^g Q Did you ever learn who had informed the Secretary
20 you were involved in this?

A No. I am somewhat philosophical now. It really
isn't relevant. We are sort of worrying about who is
carrying the stiletto. You can worry all day. I have my
own ideas. It is not worth worrying about.

Q Do you think it might have been related in some

696

IMWISSQRCV

way to what you refer to as your -- LPD's kind of unpopular
position in the State Department?

A No. I think it was possibly, if anything, I was
more abrasive. Although I g<^ on well with people personally,
I was tough in my role as Senior Director for Coordination at
NSC on Presidential visits, and if there was — if there were
ruffled feathers on my part, and I am just speculating, it
would have probably been more from my handling of Presidential
foreign travel and being tough on the State Department in
trying to keep their delegations down. They had a tendency
to take more people than the President did.

Q Did you have anything to do with approving
transportation, either local or air, for Oliver North?

MR. CHRISTMAS: While he was at the White House?

MR. OLIVER: While he was at the White House.

THE WITNESS: On a couple of occasions, I would chew
out Bob Earl because I found out they had gone directly to
DOD. I don't know — I never, never was involved in provid-
ing any transport for any of Colonel North's activities.

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Would a request for U.S. Government transportation,
airplane transportation, by Colonel North come through you?

A It should, but it didn't, if it was to be a
Presidential mission. We only handled Presidential missions.
There was a separate office within the Department of Defense

697

UiQL/iQisiEn'

air missions were sent up without our knowledge. They were
just authorized by the Department of Defense, and from what I
was able to ascertain, that was the case with Colonel North.
He never went through my office or went through the White
House military office that I am aware.

Q Did you ever meet Bill Casey?

A No. I have seen him, but I have never met him.

Q Did you ever meet Dewey Clarridge?

A I may have at a retirement party for a friend of
mine at the agency.

Q Who was that friend?

A A friend

Q Did you ever meet Claire George?

A I don't think so. ^ /t/ll'F'

Q When did you first meet

A I can't really tell you. I think probably late

'84, but I can't swear. It could be one side or the other.

Q Did you meet him in one of these public diplomacy

meetings at the White House?

A No.

Q Where did you meet him?

A From time to time as we got involved in congression-
al, legislation pending on the Hill, there would be pulled

together a group of people under the aegis of XTnh/i Fortier,

VMM aQcicica

698

7
8
9

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

DWR.i^nRBr

ATh

all

and they needed basically someone to do the foot wor)c, and
since we were always considered good people, LPD always did
the foot work. The people, there were people from White House
Legislative Affairs, State Department Legislative Affairs, a
5 couple people from the pLgencie^^ome NSC people Hl^e Raj^ ^^
e'^SiiSSw^and Ollie and Donj|^that is where I saw^|||

the time.

Q Did Walt Raymond participate in those meetings?

A No.

Q What was LPD' 3 role in the legislative effort?
A It was primarily to gather documents and material,
because there was a frustration, even on the part of the
Legislative Affairs people, Fox particularly, at the State
Department, that wheels move too slowly, and when Bob
MichJTei wanted something, we had to get it up there, and
we ^ere the guys supposed to race around and even if we
hacked up people at the State Department or in the, you know.
DOD or whatever we had to get, we didn't worry about the
ramifications, we had to get the material.

Q What kind of material would Ed Fox want for Bob
MichT^lAhat couldn't be provided by Ed Fox?

^A He would just pick up the phone and call me
because Ed had some problems with his own people that were
not, they were nine-to-f ivers. They didn't move with the

* ^ ^^A Tn fact that is how I think it first
swiftness of speed. in ract, ^na^

UHCA flQClCTn

699

iiRfSE)i§sf?;^T

1 received the attention of people in the NSC.

2 I was able to say yes and be there at 8:00 o'clock

3 at night or 7:00 in the morning, that type of thing. They
* wanted people to do that sort of thing, and Ed felt his own

5 bureau, as well as other bureaus, just moved rather slowly.

6 Q What kind of material would they ask for?

7 A Things I have referenced before. I mean, it would

8 be preparing books for refuting all the accusations that

9 certain tHfQponeatg of the administration would made on our

10 position in, our positions, you know, some of the great

11 myths about the contras. It would be to detail — this

12 was all unclassified stuff — compiling what armaments had

13 poured in under Soviet aid.

14 Q Was this stuff that had been declassified for LPD?

15 A Yes. Declassified generally. A lot of times we

16 were picking stuff off the shelf. He were, in effect, a

17 clearing house at that point. They could sort of do their

18 one-stop shopping. We were the ones who had to do the foot

19 wock.

20 A lot of it was not sexy stuff. That way they

21 don't have to call up ARA, or call up the JB8 or go over and

22 9St something. We were the ones who had to do it. It was

23 not exactly, as I say, sexy activity.

24 Q Did you know Vince Cannistraro?
A Yes.

UHCl flQciocfi

700

UNlTdbSa^lET

1 Q In what context?

A I first met him very casually when I was at State,

3 and I got to know Vince in a personal fashion when I was at

^ NSC. I was never aware what his account was. I knew he

5 was ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hworking for Graffenreid, he would

6 show up at Ollie's office, but I don't know what he actually

7 did. Professionally, did I work with him? No.

8 Q Did you have any relationship with Secretary

9 Shultz when you were at the State Department as Deputy

10 Coordinator for LPD?

11 A Occasionally I wold be up on the Secretary's

12 floor, once or twice be involved in a briefing. That was

13 the extent of it.

14 Q Did you participate in any regular meetings with

15 the Secretary? Did Otto participate in regular meetings

16 with the Secretary?

17 A Yes, he would have occasional briefings with the

18 Secretary. Sometimes one on one. One I remember a huge

19 operation — I can't say one on one. Usually there was some-

20 one else in with the Secretary, with Charlie Hill or other

21 people.

22 Q Did you have any working relationship with Don

23 Gregg?

24 A None.

25 Q Do you know Don Gregg?

riMiy_iiccirirr>

701

utte^Dssmep^

1 A I know Don because I used to sit next to him at ^

2 staff meetings, but I never had any working relationship.

3 Q Did LPD, anyone from the Vice President's office,

4 participate in any of the working groups LPD was involved in?

5 A I don't think so.

6 Q No one participated in the public relations group?

7 A No.

8 MR. CHRISTMAS: You are only referring to the time

9 he was employed at LPD?

10 MR. OLIVER: That is correct.

11 THE WITNESS: Not that I am aware.

12 BY MR. OLIVER:

13 Q When did you first meet Frank Gomez?

14 A I think in early 1984. It was either December,

15 '83,. I came back from Africa, or early 1984.
18 Q What was he doing when you met him?

17 A I think he was retiring as a USIA officer. I

18 think he was running, I may not be correct, he was running

19 oiM of the foreign press centers.

20 Q Didn't LPD deal deal a lot with the Federal Press

21 Center?

22 A We did to a large extent. That was part of our

23 mandate, to not only get information out to domestic offices,

24 but to get it to European and Latin American offices. So

25 we would provide materials to the Foreign Press Center.

702

tfttsussmEsr

Q Was Frank Gomez running the center at that time?

A I didn't know him that well at the time. 1 can't
remember. I mean, I think he was, but I am not sure.

Q When did you first learn of the possibility Frank
Gomez might become a contractor of LPD?

A Fairly early on. I was told, I can't remember
whether it was by Otto or John Scaife, a USIA detailee,
that he had the requisite expertise.

Q Were you aware he was working with Rich Miller at
that time?

A No,. I wasn't at that time.

Q Were you aware that Rich Miller had left AID to
form a consulting firm?

r^b^t

there was that nice period where I was ■rtot. in the bush
checking for Peace Corps volunteers and was out of touch,
but at some point I became aware of it.

Q When did you become aware of the working relation-
ship between Rich Miller and Frank Gomez?

A I cun not sure. I would say probably spring of '84,
but I can't be more detailed than that.

Q Were you the technical representative on Frank
Gomez's consulting contract?

A I have had my memory refreshed through people in
the press. Apparently ^-'I was on several of them, and I eto

703

1 giUBCiiiLui OtLu more elonrly than Rich. — That was something

2 Matthew Freeman, and before he left, an administrative

3 person, had me designated on I think, originally some pur-

4 chase orders.

5 Q Were you briefed on what your responsibilities were?

6 A No. As a matter of fact, it was sort of sloughed

7 off, and they said basically you have to certify the guy is

8 actually performing some work, and we will do the rest.

9 I hate to pass the buck, but, as I said before, there were

10 all sorts of people hired there who spend all their days

11 under green eye shades who were supposed to review those

12 sorts of things. I wasn't going to certify he was not doing

13 his work, I was going to be honest in that regard. It was

14 passed off as a rather light thing.

15 Q How do you know he was doing the work?

18 A I would see at least some of his activities —

\j he was reporting most of the time to John Scaife, because

18 thay had worked together at USIA plus Frank had a tendency

19 tm arrive early in the morning before I was there and give

20 material to John. He would brief him. He spent more time

21 talking to John Scaife, and Scaife would report to me things

22 he was doing.

23 Q Did you know that Frank Gomez considered himself as

24 an agent of Rich Miller during these initial contracts?

AC A No, I did not. In fact, it was my impression he

liNi^l «CCIC9L'rt

704

iiuAi nccir^rn

1 was operating independently.

2 Q You are familiar, of course, with the IBC con-

3 tracts?

^ A I am familiar by reference. I haven't seen them

5 since 1983- '84, whenever I left.

6 Q You have not seen them?

7 A No.

8 Q Were you questioned about these contracts by the

9 Inspector General's office?

10 A Yes, I was. In fact, I take that back. I may

11 have had it waved in front of my nose. I did talk to the

12 Inspector General.

13 Q Have you talked to the General Accounting Office

14 about those contracts?

15 A No, I haven't. I am sure that is the next stop.

16 Q Have you talked to Rich Miller or Frank Gomez

17 about these contracts this year?

18 A No.

19 Q Have you talked to Otto Reich about these contracts

20 this year?,^ q^

21 A -h'u" talked to Otto several times, and I think we

22 roay have referenced it in May — I am not sure — Otto came

23 out to my house for dinner. We are still quite close. We

24 couldn't go into this, because we didn't want to sort of

25 compare notes and pre-cook any testimony. Yes, there were

ntlPI ilCCirir»%

705

24
25

BNBEASSffHfflr

1 references to it, but we didn't go into detail.

2 Q Did Otto Reich discuss with you his testimony

3 before this committee?

4 A No. And I have not spoken to him since he ap-

5 parently came here. I intentionally have not talked to him

6 at all.

7 Q How did you know he came here?

8 A I heard through Bob Tf£q^, he thought Otto had been

9 up here.

10 MR. CHRISTMAS: There are leaks in Washington.

11 BY MR. OLIVER:

12 Q Did Bob K/agan tell you about any other appearances

13 by anyone before this committee? .,

14 A No. He was speculating, as a matter of fact. He
•)5 assumed while Otto was here in July, he had visited with you.
1g I know Otto was anxious to sort of give his side of the

17 story. But, no. Bob didn't discuss it with anybody else,

1g except he did relate he enjoys having these tete-a-tetes

19 with you.

20 Q With me?

21 A Yes.

22 Q In particular? What did he say about me?

You are under oath.

MR. CHRISTMAS: You are under oath. Shall we go
off the record?

UNcia^iFiEn_

706

UNfifeA^lfiPr

1 (Discussion off the record.)

2 MR. OLIVER: Let's go back on the record.

3 BY MR. OLIVER: ;.

4 Q First I note that Mr. Buck has rejoined us, and

5 we are also joined by Vick Zangla, associate staff member of

6 the House Select Committee.

7 MR. CHRISTMAS: Thank you, Counsel.

6 MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to

9 mark this as Jonathan Miller Exhibit Number 4. It is a

10 series of documents and contracts related to State, LPD

11 contracts with IBC and Frank Gomez.

12 (Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)

13 BY MR. OLIVER:

']4 Q Mr. Miller, these are six contracts with LPD.

^5 Would you take a look at those, just to familiarize yourself

1g with them.

^7 (The witness complied.)

18 BY MR. OLIVER:

19 Q Back on the record.

20 Mr. Miller, this first contract —

21 A I think technically it is a purchase order.

99 Q It is a purchase, order, that is correct. Were

23 you familiar with thawurchase order at the time that it was

OA made?

MR. CHRISTMAS: What is the date, do you know?

707

\}KCtASS(^T

1 MR. OLIVER: The date of this particular purchase

2 order is February 14, 1984. Wait a minute. No, this is

3 not correct. August-September, 1984.

4 THE WITNESS: This is the one — okay. The

5 El Salvador?

6 BY MR. OLIVER:

7 Q Yes.

8 A Yes, I am feuniliar.

9 Q What did you know about this purchase order at the

10 time?

11 A This was done in conjunction, this was mostly

12 done, if I remember correctly, in El Salvador at the request

13 of the Salvadoran Government in conjunction with some

14 conversations Ambassador Reich had with Ambassador Pickering,

15 and there was a real concern that the El Salvadoran military

16 had really no basic communication skills in dealing especially

17 with the American press.

18 And given the fact that Frank not only spoke

19 fltwnt Spanish but had recently lived down there, his talents

20 were asked for. We, in effect, were just the middleman on

21 this one. This was done at the request of the Salvadoran

22 Government by the U.S. Embassy in El Salvador to give a

23 seminar to those members of the Salvadoran military handling

24 their public information activities. As you are probably

25 painfully aware, they did not have the best spit and polish

708

•ti^mtm

1 about them.

2 Q Do you know whether or not that seminar was ever —

3 A I think it was.

4 Q — carried out?

5 A It was. There was to be a follow-up one, which I

6 think because of concerns by the Public Affairs Officer down

7 there, Don Hamilton, it was never held. The initial session

8 was, I was not in Salvador for that, but, yes, it was.

9 Q There is a little confusion here. The first page

10 is for a purchase order, the second is for a contract of a

11 different time. The first page is for a two-week seminar

12 for the Salvadoran Government early August, September, 1984.

13 A That was to be I think a spin-off from the original

14 one. My timeframe is very, very rough.

15 Q Did you know about that purchase order from the

16 Foreign Service Institute?

17 MR. CHRISTMAS: Counsel, can we go back for a

18 monent? Obviously, there is confusion.

19 MR. OLIVER: ThereAs some confusion. The first

20 PA?^ is a purchase order, an invoice from the Department of

21 State Foreign Service Institute in the amount of $16,000

22 that was paid on October 25, 1984, the certified person was

23 Anita Brown.

24 MR. CHRISTMAS: There was a question. This was the

25 original seminar. Was this a follow-up seminar;

'Wf&.imm

1 THE WITNESS: I think this was the second seminar.

2 MR. CHRISTMAS: That was not held?

3 THE WITNESS: I think it was not held. A lot of

4 trips were made, but at the last second, because of some

5 concerns of the U.S. Embassy in El Salvador, the second one

6 was not held.

7 BY MR. OLIVER:

8 Q Do you know why Anita Brown would have certified

9 it was correct and proper for payment?

10 A I think there were an awful lot of expenses

11 involved. There was an ongoing effort. We were not —

12 this is primarily between the Foreign Services Institute^

13 whw were at best tangentially involved in thisy the embassy

14 in El Salvador and the Salvadoran Government.

15 But there were an awful lot of activities --

16 activity was generated after the first seminar and before

17 the second one. To have taken place would have cost more

18 than could have been recouped. I am just speculating in

19 tHHt regard, because I wasn't involved. Don Heunilton knows

20 a lot more.

21 Q Doesn't Anita Brown work for the State Department?

22 A But there are thousands of people who work for the

23 State Department, hundreds of people work in management.

24 Q I believe in Exhibit Number 2 there is a memo to

25 Anita Brown from you.

iiMfti nccicicn

710

UN0tA§§Sig9r

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3
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A Right. I never met her, though.

Q You know who she is? ,

A Those are prepared by our administrative people.
There are tons of memos that are generated in the bureaucracy
to people you don't know.

Q Did you have anything to do with certifying that
this work had been done by Frank Gomez?

A I don't remember being that involved, but if you
have got documents that do on that specific one —

MR. OLIVER: Could we go off the record for just
a minute.

(Discussion off the record.)

■iMAi ■ccic'cn

711

Take 5
•LK-1

«f|pLflfi»»£P

BY MR, OLIVER:

Q We were talking about this purchase order, August-
September, 1984. You indicated that you really were not very
familiar with this project.

A I still am a little confused by the way this was
put together, the way the exhibit was put together. This
purchase order for $1,995 I eun feuniliar with.

Q But you are not feuniliar with the $16,198 —

A I am familiar with that activity, but I don't
remember being the certifying officer, and if my memory serves
me correctly, that was done through the Foreign Service Insti-
tute and not through SLPD which is another division of the
State Department.

Q But at the time it was done, was Frank Gomez a
contractor to LPD?

A Yes.

Q Did you participate in any way in assisting him with
th« organization of this seminar that was to be held in
August-September, 1984?

A No, not at all.

Q Do you know whether or not that seminar was carried
out? I am talking about the $16,198, August-September
seminar.

A I can't tell you for sure. I don't think it was.
I think it was the second seminar, and it was not held, but

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since it wasn't my project, I can't swear by it.

Q And it is your testimony that you had nothing to do
with him being paid for that seminar?

A I don't recall any involvement in that.

Q Are you aware that the Inspector General has indi-
cated that the work was not performed and it was recommended
that the money be returned to the U.S. Government?

A No.

Q Let's move on to the next contract, which I believe
is dated February 14th, 1984. There is an amendment.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Is that the second part of this
exhibit?

MR. OLIVER: That is the second part of this exhibit.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q The first part is em amendment. The contract follows
it for the provision of said services shall be from February
14th, 1984, to May 31st, 1984.

A It was still in that first batch, right?

Q Yes, that is correct. That the contract indicates
that you would serve as the liaison officer for the Department
of State with Frank Gomez. Did you serve in that capacity
during the period of this contract?

A To a certain extent I think I did, although I think
John Scaife was more involved that I was, but yes, to a
certain extent I was the liaison

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Q What did you do as the liaison with Mr. Gomez for
that contract?

A Well, he would occasionally come and say that he
would like to, for instance, prepare a collection of differ-
ent press outlets in Central America, of what Central Ameri-
cans are saying about the situation in Nicaragua— This is an
illustrative example.^ and feeling that it was a good way to
disseminate and get out to the local and regional press, he
would come up with examples like that all the time, and would
bring in work products to that extent. Sometimes he would
give it to me, sometimes he would give it to John Scaife who
would then give it to me, because as I said, he worked with
John Scaife for years at USIA, but there were translations of
editorials from, as an example, from Costa Rica. There were
all sorts of things that were similar to that sort of thing
that he would bring in from time to time.

Q On these contracts as you looked through there on
this exhibit, there are a number of contracts that stretch
froa February of 1984 to October, November 1, or September
30th of 1986, emd on those contracts — on the first one you
were the liaison officer and on the second one you were the
liaison officer. On the third one you were the person who
requested the orders.

A What are you looking at? Do you have a copy I

can look at?

liNr.LISSlElED

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Q This is not in the contract. This is another
document. This is in all of those documents. You were —
actually there are seven contracts, one of which is not in
there, and I wanted to ask you about that one in a minute,
but on the six IBC contracts, two of which were Gomez, four
of which were IBC, on the fourth contract you were the COTR,
on the fifth contract you were proposed but not designated
as the COTR, and you had some involvement in the last. Did
you have anything to do with the last contract? I don't
think you did.

A No.

Q You were gone by the time —

A That was one day the gods smiled on me.

Q Were you familiar with a contract with the Insti-
tute for North-South Issues in LPD?

A I was aware vaguely of the existence of the Insti-
tute for North-South Issues, and I was aware that Frank had
formed it for educational purposes, and I was always unsure
am to what it was, but I thought it was something that had
absolutely nothing to do with us, so I don't think I was
aware of any specific contract between the Institute on
North-South Issues, but I am not really up-to-speed on that.
I haven't looked at any paperwork in so long.

Q What was the date of your departure?

A August of 1985. I can't give you the exact date.

of 1985. I can't give you

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Q But you don't recall a contract at about that time
fromvNJJ to evaluate the distribution system of LPD?

A I remember discussions which I did not favor that
Frank Gomez — undertaking distribution, I felt it was superflu-
ous and not necessary, and frankly, that was a proper role of
the Public Affairs office of the Department of State, and he
kept bringing- the proposal up from time to time, but I never
endorsed or was aware that we had done that, and when I
found out later on that there was some semblance contract, I,
frankly, was flabbergasted.

Q What did these contractors do for LPD while you
were, at least technically , the person to whom they were
reporting?

A Well, rather quickly, Frank became the primary
handler for defectors, which is why the contracts got larger,
although I was not involved in that last rather large contract.

Q When you say the contracts got larger —

A Well, you can look at the monetary amounts. Granted
m^ time periods were Idiijsa , but in fact the last contract
that I was involved in, I think, was supposed to be, although
I think it was actually ratified by the time I had left the
State Department, the $90,000, I think, was supposed to be a
full fiscal year contract.

Q For fiscal year 1985?

Right.

UNCLASSIFIED

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I think actually it wasn't processed and signed off

Q Which would have run from October 1st —

A 1984.

Q To September?

A Although I don't think it was ratified actually
until September of 1985. It was ratified after I left.

Q What do you mean by ratified?

A
on. It was

Q Retroactive?

A From my understanding.

Q How did that work? I mean how could you have a
retroactive contract for $90,000?

A Because the contracting as you, I think, may be
painfully aware from what you have heard, I have not read the
Inspector General's report, the contracting office was not
run exactly like the Swiss Railway. They kept saying there
was no sort of problems with this thing, so on the basis of
actually no problems with IBC, IBC did undertake some activi-

tlM.

Going back to referring to the larger cunounts, they are
larger for two reasons, one of which, the $90,000, was a full
fiscal year, whereas some of the eaurlier ones were shorter
periods of time. Secondly, IBC started taking on the care
and feeding of these Salvador an and later, Nicaraguan, defec-
tors, and as I said to the Inspector General, it was implicit

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and it maybe should have been explicit, but it was implicit
in the contract, and with the contract office, that an awful
lot of those out-of-pocket expenses which Gomez had been
handling for the care and feeding of putting up the defectors
in hotels and things like that would be borne out of the
$90,000 contract. But he was doing an awful lot of work with
defectors.

Q That was most graphic. Where did he get these
defectors? How did they come to him?

A Coming through the formal channels. They come
either through the U.S. embassies —

Q Were they turned over^^^^^^^^Hto Gomez?

lere was an incident
before I ever arrived, a rather embarrassing incident, of,
I think, a Salvadoran guerilla who recanted in front of a
press conference on the hill, and we didn't want to have that
repeated ever again. They originally would come in through
our embassies ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H things
that. They were not something just, you know, we picked up.

Q And then what would happen, once they came in?

A I wasn't privy to that portion. I mean usually they
would be handled

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and then they would be, when they got to

Frank would take over the care and feeding of them.

A I wasn't really aware of exactly how it happened
Usually either we would pick them up

Airport.

Q How did you know when they were coming in

A The embassy would notify
We didn't do it by ouiji board.

Q I understand that. I am just trying to determine
who was handling these defectors, and who turned them over

to you.

A That portion usually was handled by early on,
Peter Romero, or later on--the name escapes me, another Foreign
service officer that we had who had served in our embassies
in Nicaragua who had worked directly with ARA, Central Ameri-
can office, we had Foreign Service officers that were handl-
ing that. That was not my area of expertise.

Q But this is what Frank Ckjmez was doing?
A Frank, after they were brought up to Washington, yes
Q When you said that wasn't your area of expertise-
A I am talking about the actual transmittal, how they
got from^^^H That should be handled by a Foreign
service oSce^rking, who understands the area. When they

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IK- 9

arrive in Washington, that is completely different, but the
actual handling of by the embassy ^^^^^^^^^^^Band other
people wasn't handled by me.

Q Let me ask you again. Are you saying either that
the Foreign Service, that the State Department handled these
defectors after they came in and brought them to Washington?

A No.

Q The answer is no.

MR. CHRISTMAS: After they came into where —

MR. OLIVER: The embassies. He indicated they came

the embassies ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 or

THE WITNESS: The answer is that the Foreign Service
officers would take care of making sure that they were taken
care of at the eftibassy level, and they would work^^^^^^^H

Ito m£Jte sure that they were finished
with the defector, and at that point, arrangements would
be made, usually through a Foreign Service officer in our
office with the State Department to send them out.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Who paid to send them out? Did LPD pay for it?

A I am not really sure. I never certified that any
funds should be issued for GTR's or airline tickets or some-
thing like that, but I couldn't swear by it. I think that
in some cases things like the Gulf and Carribean Council
paid for those people, but I can't tell you, who paid for

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104

each person. ^

Q Who is the Gulf Carribean Foundation?

A It was run by a former Congressman, Dan Kuykendall.

Q And what did they do?

A They were very interested in the area obviously, and
were sort of a public interest group, for lack of anything
else.

Q Are you telling me that the embassies turned these
people over to the Gulf and Carribean Foundation?

A No.

Q And they were turned over to you?

A I am not saying that but I am talking about their
domestic affairs, there is an inference in your question
about that, I never certified with the State Department that
funds should be used for bringing" them up. I thought that
once the U.S. Government sort of finished with them^^^^^^H

some private groups I assumed paid
for them, but I can't tell you who they were, and in certain
cas«8, I think I gave the example of the Gulf and Carribean
Council, but I can't say anything further than that.

Q What was the relationship of the Gulf and Carribean
Council to LPD?

A Itwas friendly. It is like asking if America's
.^gSeh is friendly with other areas, but we didn't work hand
in glove, and frankly, it was not all that effective of a

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group.

Q When did you meet Dan Kuykendall for the first time?

A I don't know, sometime probably late in 1984-early
1985.

Q How did you meet him?

A I think I was introduced to him by Richard Miller.

Q Do you remember the circtomstances?

A No. '"' ' '''' ' " ■ ' ■•

Q What was Dan Kuykendall 's role in the legislative
effort to secure assistance for the contras?

A I never really was sure. A lot of people took all
sorts of credit, for all sorts of activities. I never really
was sure what his was. I got the feeling that Kuykendall was
basically, as a former member, able to talk to other members
in a fashion that we are pr«Aibited ' by statute from doing. But
I never watched Dem Kuykendall in action.

Q Did you ever attend any meetings with Dan Kuykendall?

A Yes I did, but I never saw him in action on the Hill.

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Q Where were the meetings that you attended?

A He had an office on the Hill, off the Hill.

Q 517 Third Street?

A That sounds familiar.

Q What did you do at those meetings?

A Mostly listen. They were basically pep rallies,
because people like Cruz, Calero and Robelo would be there,
and Kuykendall would talk £ibout how we are X short on this
vote or that vote. I was there maybe three or four times.

Q And you talked about?

A I didn't talk.

Q Do you remember being at Dan Kuykendall 's
town house during the 1985 period?

A Yes, I do.

Q Do you remember a particular meeting at 4 o'clock
on March 1st at Dan Kuykendall 's town house, at which the
participants were Dem Kuykendall, Jack Abramov, Sam Dickens,
Jia Denton, Lynn Bouchet, Walt Raymond, Otto and yourself,
a»A Oliver North?

A I remember a meeting and em afternoon aUbout that
time, and I remember some people being there. I know all
those people with maybe one exception. No, I know them
all, and we have all been in a room at one point or
another, but I can't testify that those people — I would
be very surprised, especially if Walt was there-

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Q Why?

A Because legislative, congressional stuff usually
wasn't his area at all. He was more concerned over the

<. 1 ^

Socialist .international, things like that, than the Hill.

Q Didn't you discuss the legislative situation in
those weekly meetings in Walt Raymond's office

A No. Maybe tangentially. Everything. — this is
the world's smallest city^ but that was not Walt's interest.

I mean, there were people like Burkhart and Constantin

,^ c^S <4.'sou« i'4- '-^r- ■

that might race) but that dog won't hunt.

Q This meeting that took place in the afternoon
in the spring, what was discussed at this meeting? Was
it a legislative strategy meeting?

A I think it was sort of an attempt to compare
notes on where we were and how many votes short we were,
and things like that. Frankly they were not the most
effective group, because I don't think a lot was accom-
plished with them, but I think it was basically to take stock
at how mauiy votes short we were and what our chances were,
and who the contra leaders had to go call on, £md things
like that.

Q When they talked about who the contra leaders
had to go call on, is that what you and Otto were supposed

to do?

UNCLASSIFIED

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1 Q Is to arrange those things?

2 A We were supposed to be there in case there were

3 concerns of members to do other things. No, we never did

4 that. If they were officially going to be conveyed by the

5 administration, they were to be handled by the State

6 Department, the legislative affairs shop. Occasionally

7 Congressman Kuykendall would set things up on his own.

8 We never were involved in that activity. We were there

9 primarily to say these are the concerns, or Congressman X

10 has got this concern. This is how we can provide it. We

11 were not sort of supplementary.

12 Q Were there any Congressmen present?

13 MR. CHRISTMAS: At that meeting or other

14 meetings?

15 BY MR. OLIVER:

'tg Q Any of the meetings that took place at Dan

17 Kuykendall 's town house?

18 A Not when I was there.

19 "' Q How many of those meetings did you attend?

20 A I don't know, three, four, five. I cannot be

21 precise. Not more than a few. They were not the most

22 productive use of my time .

23 Q Was Oliver North at those meetings?

24 A I think he was at almost every one.

25 Q And was Otto^ Reich^a^y^gflf^ggtings?

IS Otto Reich at those meetii

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109

A He may have been at one, but I don't remember
Otto being at many.

Q Did you all discuss the situation in Central
America with these people? Was that your purpose there,
tell them what was going on?

A Well, we would talk about what we thought our
best argiunents were on the Hill, which we did not think
we were getting out. This sounds like a broken record.
Primarily the huge amount at that point of arms that were
going in, Soviet arms.

Q Did you make available materials to these people
to use in their lobbying efforts?

A I can't say yes and I can't say no. I wovjld like
to say no but there will be a 2 percent chance* Anything
that we made available was publicly available.

Q I'm not saying it wasn't available. Did you make
avail2Q}le materials?

A I can't really recall.

Q Did you provide them with an arms display that
could be utilized on Capitol Hill?

A We tried for a long time to do that arms display,
and the Speziker never was smitten with the idea, so the arms
display which had been kicking around for years never made
it, from what I'm aware of, but that was primarily the
baby of Larry Tracy. It finally showed up at the State

|;ypi ■orir» -n

726

Department after I left.

Q Where did the arms come from?

A Most of them were captured I think in El
Salvador. ,:

Q And how did you all get ahold of them?

A They were held by the U.S. embassy.

Q And they sent them to you?

A They were usually sent to DoD and then DoD would
provide them.

Q Was there a constant flow of arms?

A No. It was pretty small.

Q These were mainly, 1 suppose, Soviet amd East
European arms; is that correct?

A Yes, that's correct, with also, I think, an M-16
that could be traced to Vietneun.

Q How did Rich Miller and Frank Gomez report to
you on their activities?

A Rich Miller never reported to me. I occasionally
woald get a phone call from Rich because he apparently was
the business partner at the end of the deal and say, you
know, we haven't gotten paid, which is infeunous for the
State Department, not to pay the people, and we were in
hurting shape. This was in the early days of IBC, but
Rich never really reported to me. Framk would come to our
office more often than not, but occasionally I would go

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111

over to IBC's offices.

Q You would go to IBC's offices and what would you
do at IBC's offices? a< —

A I would talk to Frank about what ^\\. had done by
IBC. It got to be fairly awkward, I must admit. IBC —
Rich was working on the same sort of account with other
clients, although he really didn't have the expertise in the
area, and so there was some overlap, but Rich and I never
worked, you know. Rich never worked for me nor did I give
him any instructions .

Q But IBC worked for you?

A Well, it was odd. It was sort of like a law
firm, one lawyer working with one client and another lawyer
working with another client, and they happened to be in the
same area, so IBC, yes, did work for us, but Frank Gomez
was the one that I considered the contractor. We contracted
with IBC specifically based on the expertise of Frank

Cf^

Goaaz, and I know I have been told to keep it shorts -#** | -T
vm had been told by Ollie North to contract IBC on the
basis of Rich Miller, we would have told him "take a flying
leap," because Rich Miller had absolutely no expertise
in Central American affairs.

Q Did Ollie North tell you to contract with Frank

Gomez?

At no point.

UNCLASSIFIED

728

112

Q Did you introduce Ollie North to Rich Miller?

A I can't tell you. I may have, I may have not.
I don't know.

Q When did you first meet Rich Miller?

A In 1980.

Q When did you first meet him in his IBC role?

A Sometime in '84.

Q Do you recall attending luncheon at IBC's
offices on September 10, 1984?

A I recall attending lunches at IBC. I can't tell
you the date.

Q This would have been the first time that Oliver
North went to IBC and there was a lunch according to his
calendar, and to other testimony, that took place at IBC's
headquarters on September 10, 1984, emd you were present.
Otto Reich was present?

A I don't know specifically —

MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse me, counsel. You are not
asking him if that is true, are you, that that is the first
time Oliver North went to IBC's office?

MR. OLIVER: It's the first time we have any
indications that he went to IBC's office, counsel, and I'm
asking him whether he recalls this luncheon meeting with
Oliver North, yourself, Frank Gomez, Rich Miller, and

Otto Reich.

iiNni AcciiT'Ea

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THE WITNESS: I don't recall it, but I won't
dispute that it may have occurred. I mean it would have
been not unusual, but I don't recall it.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Do you remember discussing with Oliver North
contractual arrangements for Frank Gomez?

A No .

Q Do you remember meeting with Oliver North and
Otto Reich, Rich Miller and Frank Gomez, and discussing
a new and larger contract for them, in September of 1984?

A No.

Q Do you recall how the IBC contract for fiscal

1985 was negotiated?

A No, because I didn't do the actual negotiation,
0 c^ —
although I showed up as the ci'TR. That was done with

Frauik Gardner. He was our adm^in, person.

Q Did he initiate it?

A No, I think Frank Gomez initiated it.

Q Did you clear?

A Yes .

Q The increased compensation?

A Right.

Q Had you discussed what was going to be done under
that contract with Oliver North?

A I don't think so.

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Q How often did you meet with Oliver North when you
were LPD?

A That's hard. Originally not very often. Later
on, as probably his calendar shows, a lot, primarily
because, as I'm known in the Executive Branch, I can be a
real pain in the ass and persistent, and I saw Ollie
primarily around times of congressional activity, but also
when I thought that Cru2 and Robelo were getting screwed
by the U.S. Government, and I was in effect their emissary
in the U.S. Government, so that is why I saw Ollie a lot.

Q Did you work out of his office for part of the
time? ^

A I did for approximately two weeks during tKe
congressional -tiiiie. I was put on the White House clearance
list, and was asked, because the legislative affairs people
at the NSC asked me, to be available to do work, so for
approximately two weeks, three weeks, I was operating out
of his office.

Q And that was in 1985?

A Spring of '85.

Q Were Rich Miller and Frank Gomez operating out
of that office during that period of time also?

A They were there but I don't think they were
operating out of there.

Q Did you ever indicate to them that they should

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work for any period of time out of Oliver North's office?

A No. Maybe we should go to nightcrawlers instead
of artificial lures.

Q I don't know what you are referring to.

MR. CHRISTMAS: I'm sure nothing personal.
MR. OLIVER: We will go on down the list here
and see what we can learn.

BY MR. OLIVER: What did you do during the period
of time that you worked out of Oliver North's office?

A As I say, I was there primarily working most
closely with Chris Lehman and Ron Sable who were the
legislative affairs people at the NSC.

Q Why weren't you working out of their office?

A They didn't have any office. There happened
to be a vacant office in the political military section
that was caused by a vacancy at the NSC, and besides which,
you know, 01 lie, as everyone has learned, is always the
center of attention even among things that he is not
involved in, amd Ollie was the one that originally
requested it, but I ended up working more closely with
Sable than I did with North.

Q Did you indicate to people in the bureaucracy
at the State Department on any occasion that you can recall
that the White House wanted these contracts expedited and

executed?

KNCUSS»F7n

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A No.

Q Did you indicate to anyone in the bureaucracy
that Oliver North wanted to have these contracts executed
or payments on them accelerated?

A No .

Q Are you aware of Oliver North intervening on
behalf of IBC in the spring of 1985 to have payments
accelerated on their contract?

A I would not be surprised, because it is the type
of thing that Rich would probably attempt to do, but I was
not aware of it.

Q Why would you not be aware of it if you were the
COTR on the contract? , ,

A I don't know. I'm sajying I wouldn't be surprised,
but I wasn't told that, and I didn't deal with the
contracting people or the memagement people.

Q On the IBC contracts you did not deal with —

A No, that was always handled, the foot work and
pBbnes went into the administrative people.

Q When you say your administrative people, what
do you mean?

A Originally Matthew Freedman and then Frank
Gardner.

Q And would Oliver North have dealt directly?

A No, I would be very surprised. I have no knowledge

layniiooiri'-^

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117

1 of that intersection. It wouldn't make any difference to

2 us. Contrary to popular opinion, we were not a wholly

3 owned subsidiary of Oliver North, I thinJc,

4 Q Are you aware of Frank Garnder intervening on

5 behalf of the IBC indicating to them that the White House
g and the NSC wanted them to be paid in an accelerated
7 fashion? Were you ever aware of Frank Gardner making any
3 representations about that?

A I'm not aweure of it.

^Q Q Did you ever discuss anything like that with

■jj Frank Gardner?

^2 A I have talked to Frank Gardner about IBC getting

^2 paid because the State Department was notoriously late

in paying any contractor. They were notoriously late in
processing any financial data, as I learned when I didn't
get my reimbursement for a European trip for a year.

Q When Frank Gomez reported to you, what did he
r^ort on? What did he tell you they were doing?

A He came up with think pieces. He would come up
and say, "Do you think it would be a good idea for us
to come up with a strategy to use the contras in the
socialist international countries?" We spent a lot of
time worrying about Western Europe, especially Portugal,
Spain and France, where we were getting clobbered, and
Britli|an, from the public relations standpoint, and he came

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1 up with scenarios and game plans on how to use these people,

2 get them out via USIA, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

3 That is one of many examples of things that he came up with,

4 and he should have a great deal of work produced.

5 Q Did they report to you on a daily, weekly basis?

6 MR. CHRISTMAS: He said day, and you were talking

7 about Mr. Gomez.

8 MR. OLIVER: Gomez, yes.

9 THE WITNESS: It would be periodic. Sometimes

10 I would see him several days in a row, sometimes I wouldn't

11 see him for a while. Sometimes he would report to John

12 Scaife and Scaife would tell me that he had seen Frank

13 early that morning and what Frank had produced.

14 BY MR. OLIVER:

15 Q Did you ever receive a superior honor, or

15 meritorious service aweurd for your service at the State

17 Department?

15 A There was talk about it. I don't remember ever

19 r^||i»lving it. If I did, it was ex post facto and I'm sure

20 they would like to retract it.

21 Q When you say you heard about it, where did you

22 hear about it? ■'• '-'■'■

23 A I heard from people after the fact that a bunch

24 of people in LPD were going to be nominated in a group,

25 but I don't know what ever happened. I don't have it

IIMCIIRSIF'ED

735

UMOMSStCHDT

119

suitable for framing on my study wall.

Q Did you draft a memorandum or a form related to
the superior honor, meritorious service award?

A I never drafted one. If I signed one, I wouldn't
be surprised, but I wouldn't have included me unless it was
a group award. I frankly thought it was not a good idea.
Ambassador Reich, however, felt that an awful lot of
people did an awful lot of work and deserved it. The first
proposal I think was drafted by Matthew Freedman.

Q How did you interact with the White House at
LPD? What was the relationship with the White House ? I'm
not talking about the NSC, because I know we talked about
your weekly meetings with Walt Raymond and your interaction
with Oliver North. I'm talking sdaout the rest of the White
House now.

A Well, from a professional standpoint, because
I had lots of friends over there, I spent most of my time
dealing either with the public liaison office, which during
BHBit of this time it was headed by Ambassador Faith
Whittlesey, and to a lesser extent with the White House
press office. I would attend a weekly meeting that was
chaired by Bob Sims in the situation room that would have
all the foreign policy press people, Bernie Kalb and
other people there, but most of my time was spent basically
in liaison with the public liaison office. Ambassador

nii<»iMc>oi.-.'->

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Whittlesey, Morton Blackwell, Bob Riley and other people.

Q You indicated earlier that there was some
difficulty with the public liaison office. What were you
referring to?

A Well, they had a tendency to be very enthusiastic,
and I would say they were like a bull in a china shop^
awi^T^l though yrc may have been perceived a4*>4n as wild <
people 4fl the State Departments at the White House^ we were
considered pinstriped, squishy, Foggy Bottom types.

Q How did you interact with Pat Buchanan?

A I interacted with Pat a lot. During the legis-
lative affairs activities we had a session called the
208 Group. Pat Buchanan had public liaison report to him,
as director of communications, and we kept him apprised of
what was going on, because from time to time we would get
a lot of heat from the State Department bureaucracy that
we were going too fast, and it was frankly felt that it
would be a good idea to have the director of White House
coianinications on our side and aware of what we were
doing.

Q So you made him aware of what you were doing?

A Well, he chaired a meeting, a public affairs
meeting, anytime there was a run up on legislative
activities, there would be a parallel group called the 208
Group that was held in 208 Old Executive Office Building

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which Pat Buchanan chaired, at which there would be people
from State Department legislative affairs. White House
legislative affairs. White House public affairs, Larry
Speakes' office, communications, public liaison, and he
chaired the group. It was basically to get the message out
from the meeting .

Q Are you familiar with the term white propaganda?
A Yes, I eun.

Q Did you engage in that in LPD?
A I would say yes. If anyone understands what
white propaganda is, it's totally appropriate.

Q How would you describe it? .,:-,,,. ., ^ . j, ^.
A It's only used — • j.,'.. ..;. a w .^>, • ••:

MR. CHRISTMAS: The question is, what is white
propaganda? i. i .

THE WITNESS: White propaganda is actually
putting out truth, straight information, not deception,
not disinformation, and having it basically sourced. You
don't try to cover up the source or anything else like
that. It's opposed to black propagandajit got its termi-
nology because white propagemda is^^isinformation. It's
an old intelligence term. And unfortunately I probably
used it a little loosely, but it's exactly what we did.
caitxyq MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Miller Exhibit 5.

r .. , nMni aocig'cn

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122

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 5
was marked for identification.)

BY MR. OLIVER:

Q This document is a confidential "eyes only"
memorandum to Pat Buchanan from Jonathan Miller, dated
March 18, 1985. Subject is "Editorial in Washington Post."
Did you send that memorandum to Pat Buchanan?

A Apparently did.

Q Is that your signature?

A Yes, it is.

Q This memorandua says that "the attached editorial
from yesterday's Nashington Post signifies the approach
that we're going to need to take In order to capture
moderates and liberals on the Rill for the President's
Nicaraguan progran. This editorial is a direct result of
a Washington media tour that our office (through one of
our outside consultants) arranged for the Nicaraguan
opposition leader Alfonso Robelo."

Who was your outside consultant?

A I think it was Frank Goows.

Q Was the purpose of this tour to try to get
favorable media coverage for his point of view?

A I think it was basically* Alfonso Robelo^ not
surprisingly happened to support our position, and frankly
Alfonso Robelo was one of the most articulate members of
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the opposition, and felt that he was the type of person that
could actually put the proper perspective on our policy.

Q Did the Washington Post know that your office
had arranged this tour for Alfonso Robelo?

A I don't know. I wouldnot be at all surprised,
because we worked directly with people like Steve Rosenfeld,
who probably wrote the editorial, and I don't think it would
have changed the message at all anyway. This is one
activity that .while I shouldn't have maybe bragged about it,
is absolutely appropriate and proper.

Q And so what you were doing was arranging
through an outside consultant to have an opposition leader
moved around to various media representatives and media
outlets, in order to promote your point of view?

A On some occasions because we just didn't have
enough bodies. We actually on many occasions did it
directly out of our office. I meem at the State Department,
w« »ay the State Department and we would talk to Night Line
a«fS say, "Look Robelo might be available; what do you

think? He is the type of person you ought to look at. You

c
are going to have , JDreign Minister DeSoto on," or some-

thing like that. There's nothing wrong with that.

Q Why did you send a blind copy to Walt Raymond?

A Primarily I think because Pat wanted, felt that
there were people that were a little too cautious, and

UNCLASSIFIED

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124

he was not wild about the NSC, and other people in the
White Rouse. There was also frankly a strong disagreement ,
between, as there always has been, the connunications
office and the press secretary's office. That is why
Bob Sims was do%ni there, but I wanted then to be aware of
what I was sending Pat.

Q But you didn't want hin to be aware that you

X'a sure that you have sent carbon copies your-

were sending it to them?

A
self. X just wanted then to be aware —

Q Row do you know that?

A You may be the only person in the ffestern
Hemisphere. At any rate, this frankly was making sure that
everybody was plugged in. That Pat felt that he was in
charge of coaosunications activities, but I didn't think it

was fair to let Pat know, and not let Malt and Bob Sims
know. Bob Sims was the foreign press secretary at the
Nhite Boose, to Larry Speakes, .iejetge depuLj press

Q But you did not know that the Washington Post
was informed?

A No, X did not.

Q That this was your office that was doing this?

A No.

Q Mas it your normal practice to inform?

741

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A We didn't go about being clandestine about it,
because we felt we ran and I still feel we ran a very honest
and above-board shop. It wouldn't have made any difference
to me if Frank had gone ahead and said, "I'm under
contract." Most people in the media knew that he was a
consultant to the State Department.

MR. OLIVER: Let's take a five-minute break.
(Recess.)

\ • "•■ ■.' ■*

I';

?i, ii-s-jn^' ■;

'iZt.: .'• ..",•

UNCLASSIFIED

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Take 16
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126

-?.

BY MR. OLIVER:

<«~ Q He were discussing the white propagainda operation.
A Yes. ,

Q How did that work? How did you promote this white
propaganda operation?

A The ten "white propaganda", when seen in print,
is a scary term, but basically we prided ourselves, in fact
had very strong disagreements with certain people, including
Colonel North, on the fact we could never engage in dis-
information. Mhen we used the broadest interpretation of
"white propaganda" , it was we would only always tell the
truth and not engage in disinformation.

There were people who felt in the intelligence
community this was a proper role, but we felt it was not
commensurate with public diplomacy activities. That is why
it was called a "white propaganda operation".

Q You had disagreements with the people in the
intelligence connunity about this white propaganda issue?

A There are people who think you have to fight dis-
information with disinformation. I don't agree. I had very
strong arguments with Colonel North on that.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this as Miller Exhibit Number 6.

(Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.)

iiuri KQQiyrn

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1
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BY MR. OLIVER: ,

Q Do you recall sending this memorandum to Pat

Buchanan, Mr. Miller?

A Vaguely.

Q This is a memorandum to Pat Buchanan from Johnathan
Miller, dated March 13, 1985, subject: "White Propaganda"
Operation. And it gives five illustrative examples of the
"Reich white propaganda operation." The first reference is
to an attached copy of an op-ed piece that ran in the Wall
Street Journal and indicates that Professor Guilmartin, who
is the author of the article, collaborated with our staff on
the writing of this piece. It says officially this
office had no role in its preparation.

Actually, you did have a role in its preparation,
did you not?

A I think we did. I can't tell you specifically what
it was. But I think I do remember I think there was some
cooperation.

Q Was there a contract with Professor Guilmartin to
write this article?

A I knew there was a contract with Professor Guil-
martin. I don't recall whether it was for this specifically.
I knew that Colonel Jacobowitz was a strong proponent of
Guilmartin' s competency in this area. I knew that we had
some contact, but I don't remember what it was specifically

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about .

Q Did you have anything to do with that?

A I don't recall. You may prove me wrong, but I don't
recall.

Q Did you realize at the time that Professor Guil-
martin had not identified himself as a contractor to S/LPO?

A By looking at these, assuming this is a full
xerox, by looking at it, I should have known.

Q But you indicated in your memorandum that officially
this office had no role in its preparation. Were you indi-
cating that you were masking your office role?

A No, Z am not indicating that at all. I am indi-
cating we may have provided him with information, but we
didn't actually write it.

Q Did you provide him with the material that was
used in the article?

A Z personally did not, but Z assume that some of
it did come from our office. .

Q Zn the second paragraph, you indicate a NBC news
piece was prepared by Francis. Z assume Francis Gomez, is
that right?

A No, Fred Francis, who is the DOD, then-DOD/NBC
reporter.

Q And he consulted two of our contractors. Who were

the two contractors?

lINCUSSiP

745

WDimmiff

I think it was probably Colonel Richardso^^nd

129

Frank Gomez,

Q The third paragraph indicates that two op-ed
pieces for the Washington Post, New York Times are being
prepared for the signatures of the triple "A". Did the
Washington Post and the New York Times know that those op-ed
pieces had been prepared by your office?

A I don't know, and I don't even know they ran.

Q Did they run? j ''--

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1 A I don't know. I have no knowledge.

2 Q Who were the two — who was the consultant who

3 prepared these two op-ed pieces?

4 A I think it probably was Frank Gomez .

5 Q Was it the normal practice of your office

6 to prepare op-ed pieces for other people's signatures with-

7 out attribution to LPD?

8 A I don't recall us ever having anything attributed to

9 our office.

10 Q But you do recall preparing a number of articles?

11 A I personally, myself, do not, but there were

12 articles prepared in the office, yes.

13 Q These were articles prepared by consultants?

14 A In certain cases, in certain cases employees.

15 Q Frank Goawz was a consultant for whom you were

18 the technical representative, is that correct?
17 A That is correct.

19 Q So you knew he was preparing these articles?

19 Nit. CHRISTMAS: He has already stated. Counsel,

20 soaetlnes contractors will do it, and sometimes employees. He

21 has already stated it.

22 MK. OLIVER: I am asking whether he knew Frank

23 Gomez prepared such articles.

24 MR. CHRISTMAS: It has been asked and answered.

25 Do not answer it again. He has answered it consistently in
the same way. 11111^1 JCClP'r?*^

747

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•-.■jfj :>--iji.i ."»..

BY MR. OLIVER;

Q Did you ask Frank Gomez to prepare op-ed articles?

A I don't recall ever asking him to. I know that he
prepared them.

Q In the next paragraph you say, "Through a^cut-out,
we are having the opposition leader Alphonso ra^ello visit
the following news organizations while he is in Washington
this week". Who was the cut-out?

A Probably Frank. •;

Q Why were you using a cut-out?

Q What do you mean by the phrase "cut-out"?

A Cut-out is just the person who is in between you
and them, which -- it means you got an intermediary. I
probably should have used that word. It is not as sinister
as it appears.

Q Is cut-out, in your experience, a term used in
intelligence activities?

A Loosely. As you can tell, as a layman, I do things

748

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132

that aren't necessarily correct. For instance, this was a
confidential 'eyes only", it wasn't meant to be classified
confidential "eyes only" in the intelligence sense. It was
meant to be confidential in the sense I don't want your
secretary opening this type of thing, and cut-out is the seune
way. I do not profess to be an intelligence officer, and
that is a very loose phrase.

Q Nhy didn't you want anybody seeing this but Pat
Buchanan?

A Because Z don't think, especially given the ability
for the White House to leak like a sieve, Z didn't. want every-
body in the world going around leaking this sort of thing.

Q In the next paragraph you indicate "Attached is a
copy of a cable we received fra« Managua." Z assume that is
a cable froa the eaOMSsy. Zs that correct?

A Yes. We didn't have cable capability to the
govemaent.

Q And the cable states that CongresssMn I,agos>arsino
toiak up Daniel Ortega's offer to visit any place in Nicaragua.
And go«a on to talk about that.

The next-to-the-last sentence says, "As the cable
notes, the Congressman's request to visit is denied." Zt
says, "Do not be surprised if this cable somehow hits the
evening news." Does that mean that you were intending to
leak this cable to the evening news?

UNCLASS1CE3

URSMSSmKtT

133

1 A I don't know what the classification was, but I

2 don't think the cable itself may havey> received -**•• Somebody

3 in our office may have given a heads-up to one of the news

4 organizations without actually reading them the cable.

5 Q Did they tell you they were going to do that?
g A I can't recall specifically. If I wrote this,
f there is obviously that possibility. I am not denying it.
g Q Did the information in that cable reach the evening
n news?

^Q A I can't remember. And if it did, it was a non-stoi^y.
y^ Q Was it the normal practice of your office to pro-

^2 vide the evening news with cables that related to Congressmen's

^2 activities in Nicaragua?

A It was never our office's normal or abnormal

^g operations to provide ceUsles to evening news organizations.

^g Synopses might be passed on in passing. But it depends on

y. what the classification of that cable was. Frankly, it was
probably -AM), I don't know, which is not an official classi-

fication. ,

Q What is your understanding of what AXrt) means?
A It means administratively held but not seen by

the security people as a security classification. It starts

with confidential and goes on up.

Q It also means it is not to be shared with people

outside of official channels, isn't that correct?

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That is correct. But, as I said, I am not sure

: sure rL^

if w* actually gave them the cable. I would say an tOM
cable, the bottoa line Congressman Lagomarsino was turned
down by the Sandinistas, is not exactly blood curdling stuff.

Q Who in your office would have told you this cable
might hit the evening news?

It could have been Colonel Richard

Q Do you know whether or not it was Colonel
Richards^ •'""' It '.

A No, I do not. ^

Q In the last paragraph, you indicate that "Our
office has been crafted to handle the concerns that you have
in getting the President's program for the freedom fighters
enacted." What did you metm by that?

A We were walking a very thin line. We were
trying to make, and we felt like we were constantly on a
high wire. We wanted to be a catalyst to the inner agency
coHBiinlty. At the same token, we wanted to be a brake to
tl^ conservatives , and we were constantly getting battled
both ways.

And so this was an attempt to make Pat believe that
there were activists in the government, but at the seune time
responsible people. We had real concerns that if we did not
take the lead, they would start being free agents, and in
cases, the public liaison people were, and this is part of

HMfii agcig':;i

ifflOEASn^Ser

135

rty-f^c

my attempt to assure Pat we were on top of things and to
calm his public liaison people down.

Q So you sent him these illustrative examples of
what you called a white propaganda operation?

A Right.
And th
say, are one of indicating a*^ loat returned article done by a
consultant to your office without attribution to your
off ice, is a clandestine trip by your contractors to a freedom
fighter camp in Nicaragua, op-ed pieces being prepared for
contra leaders by contractors in your office for their
signature, the use of a cut-out and indication that a cable
is going to be leaked to the evening news?

A It is your assumption, which is — you are entitled
to make. I am not sure that I agree with it.

Q Which part of it don't you agree with?

A What is your question? I mean —

Q I mean, is it fair to say that that is what this —

A If you want to go point by. point, again, and rebut
it, I think you could make a different interpretation, but
you are entitled to that. Reasonable men differ.

Q The document can speak for itself.
I would like to — who is Wes Egan?

A I thinkhe was Executive Assistant to Deputy

Secretary BuuK Otto had a tendency to report through the
n^a^m m ^

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136

1 State Department chain primarily, once Larry Eagleburger

2 left, to Secretary Bommi, and Wes Eagan was his Executive

3 Assistant.

4 Q Do you know Spitz Channel 1?

5 A I have never met the man. I have seen him once.

6 Q When did you see him?

7 A I saw him one time when I was in Ollie North's

8 office, either when I was on the NSC staff or at the White

9 House, and I went by to say hello to Fawn.

10 Q Did you know of the work that Rich Miller and Frank

11 Gomez were doing for Spitz Channell?

12 A No, not at first. I kept hearing of this infamous

13 Spitz Channell 's neune as early as spring of '85 in relation

14 to a fund-raiser there, but that was about all my knowledge

15 of Spitz Channell.

Ig Q Did you know that Spitz Channell was raising funds

^7 for the resistemce?

18 A No.

^g Q Did Oliver North ever tell you of his relationship

20 with Spitz Channell?

2^ A No. I know I am supposed to keep it short, but

22 you have to realize I left in August of '85, and once I

left, I ceased to have anything to do with Central America,
Q Were you aware of the briefing that was held in

the White House in June of 1985 where Spitz Channell 's

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contributors and 01 lie North gave a briefing?

A I wa« aware at some point 01 lie North gave a
briefing with Spitz Channell and sooe other people, but it
had nothing to do with rae.

0 Here you aware that Rich Miller arranged that
briefing for Spitz Channell?

A No, Z wasn't.

Q Did Frank Gomez ever indicate to you that he knew
of Spitz Channell 's fund-raising activities on behalf of the
contras?

A I don't think Frank and Z had any conversations
for about two, two-and-a-half years, maybe we had one, and
at no time did it come up.

Q Do you know Penn Kemble?

A Yes.

Q How do you know Penn Kemble?

A Z first was introduced to him by Otto a long time
ago because he was working with religious groups and was
pact of /A Scoop Jackson Tribe, lost tribe.

Q Were you aware of an advanced copy of a New York
Times ad to be run by PRODEMCA that was sent to your office?

A Z was aware they were going to do one, but Z
wasn't involved in that ad.

Q How did you become aware of it?

A I think it was just said they were going to purchase

UNOLMSlEia

754

WWWSBff^

138

1 an ad that was going to strap them financially,

2 Q Did Otto Reich tell you about that?
3" A I can't recall. It is possible,

4 Q Did Otto Reich ever show you the copy for the ad?

5 A It is possible. But I didn't think anything of

6 it.

7 MR. OLIVER: I would like to enter this as Miller

8 Exhibit Number 7 and ask the reporter to mark it.

9 (Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.)

10 BY MR. OLIVER: ' '' C

11 Q This is a copy of a contract with John Guilmartin,

12 Jr., who is the gentleman we have been discussing who wrote

13 the op-ed piece in which they did not indicate the relation-

14 ship or Mr. Guilmartin did not indicate a relationship with

15 the Department of State.

tg Does this exhibit refresh your memory about what

17 Dr. Guilmartin was supposed to do for LPO in December, 1984?
^g A Possibly. I don't even know. Who was the —
fg Q If you look at the memo, December 14, 1984, to

20 George Twohie from Jo Ellen Powell, you will see J. Miller.

21 Is that your signature?

22 A It looks like it, probably is.

23 Q Do you remember clearing this purchase order?

24 A I don't, but I will take your word for it. I mean,

25 there were lots of things that I did. Obviously somebody

UNCLASiirJtO-.

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1
2

had X.O clear it, so I will say that I cleared it. I see I
had a carbon to Ambassador Motley.

Q There is a memo in there to Wes Egan, sending him
a copy of this article, and you indicated in that memorandum
Professor Guilmartin is a consultant to LPO.

A Obviously, if we were trying to do things clandestini
ly, I wouldn't send it up to the Assistant Secretary's
office. Obviously, I didn't think there was anything wrong
with this. • „

Q Did anyone ever indicate to you that Professor
Guilmartin should have indicated his relationship with the
State Department when he signed this article?

A No.

Q Did Professor Guilmartin get paid for this article
by the Hall Street Journal?

A I don't have any way of knowing. My knowledge of
most op-ed pieces is that you don't get compensated for
those. If you do, he owes the U.S. Government 500 bucks

Q Because you paid him $5007

A Apparently, on the basis of this.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to enter this as Miller
Exhibit Number 8 and ask the reporter to mark it.

(Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.)

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BY MR. OLIVER:
Q This is a memorandum, dated September 17, 1985,
from Otto Reich to the Deputy Secretary about the latest
Nicaraguan defector. Were you aware of the existence

prior to your departure from LPD of Alvaro Jose Baldizon

.t
Aviles?

I believe it was occurring at the time I was

leaving
Q
A

Have you ever seen this memo before?
No. When I checked out, I checked out. I didn't
have anything to do with LPD at this point.

Q May I ask you, did this — was this the usual
practice, that which is described in this memo, for dealing
with defectors by your office?

A Yes, it was. There was a real sensitivity that we
make sure he is actually telling the truth. This also,
by the way, shows we are not totally loose cannons because
he was keeping a Deputy Secretary apprised, also the
principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public
Affairs and the Latin American Bureau.

» But that is usually the way it was done. There
was no question about the propriety of that.

757

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Q Did LPD usually have these rehearsal press confer-
ences for the defectors —
.A I don't know about this one.
Q I am not asking about this one.

A My job was not to prepare them. I don't know how
they were prepared. Especially since my Spanish is not that
good and everybody else there spoke very fluent Spanish.

Q Were you aware while you were at LPD of any
rehearsal press conferences being held with defectors?
A No.

MR. OLIVER: Z would like to enter this as Miller
Exhibit Number 9.

(Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.)
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q The date on this is Nay 30, 1985, to the Secretary,
and it obviously refers to the Mew York Times advertisement
being nin by PRODEMCA, which we discussed earlier. Were you
aware of this SMSiorandum being sent to Otto by the Secretary?

A I may have been, and I don't see anything wrong
with it.

MR. CHRISTMAS: n^e question is were you aware.
THE WITNESS: No. I may have been. I may have
proofed it for typos, I don't know,
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q When you indicate that, or when Otto indicates in

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there PRODEMCA didn't want to give the appearance of having
obtained "approval" from us, was that the normal relationship
that you had with these private groups to use arms-length and
cut-outs and so on?

A Those are two different things. In this case,
this I think was done independently. Penn was an old,
close friend of Otto's. They had come out of I think the
McGovern Ccunpaign to run it. Wait until the conservatives
hear that.

Q I want you to know I seriously doubt that.

A At least Otto was involved in the McGovern Ccunpaign,
believe it or not. They were old, dear, dear friends. We
were worried, frankly, they were going to be damned by being
lackies and fools of the administration which was an
indigenous, grass-roots operation. It was done without our
knowledge, and Penn may have shown it to them as a friend,
and they were always sort of commiserating together. As
you can tell by the signatories there, it is hardly a John
Biuch Society type of group that's backing, so I am not at
all surprised.

But we were always very aware of PRODEMCA, since
it was independent, being described as being one of our tools,
which was a very bum rap for them. I think that is why Otto
put that in there.

Q Were you aware that Penn Kemble received funds

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from Spitz Channell?

A No, I was not.

Q Were you aware Bruce Cameron received funds from
Spitz Channell?

A Only way after the fact, in the last couple months.
MR. CHRISTMAS: Vlhat was the last name?
THE WITNESS: Bruce Cameron.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Miller, did you ever learn from Colonel North
or anyone else while you were at LPD that Oliver North was .
involved with supplying weapons to the contras?
A I never had any constructive knowledge.
Q What do you mean, constructive knowledge?
A Well, I never had any knowledge.
Q Oliver North never indicated to you that he was
Involved in fund-raising for the contras in any way? Is
that your testiaony?

A He never indicated it to me.
Q When did you find out for the first time that
Oliver North was involved in supplying lethal support for the
contras?

MR. CHRISTMAS: Actual knowledge or suspicions.
Counsel?
. '-■ ii- THE WITNESS: When Ed Meese made his press confer-

UNCLASSIFIED

^m&t^ss}Sk,T

144

BY MR. OLIVER:

Q You had no knowledge of it prior to that time?

A No.

Q When did you first become aware Oliver North was
providing monetary assistance to the contras?

MR, CHRISTMAS: Actual knowledge or suspicions?
MR. OLIVER: Knowledge.

THE WITNESS: I would say, if you are using a
broad interpretation of contras, the day that money was
received by Arturo Cruz.
.S«:oc « BY MR. OLIVER;

Q You did not know prior to that of any funding made
availetble to them by the U.S. Government?

A No. Well, in this case, it wasn't made by the U.S.
Government I don't think, but you asked about Colonel North
personally.

Q The funds were given to you by a U.S. Government
official and U.S. Government office. Didn't you think they
w«p* U.S. Government funds?

A As I stated earlier, he said that they came from
Calero. I would have had strong reservations if they had
been U.S. Government funds.

Q Did you ask Rob Owen whether or not he had ever
had any prior knowledge about these traveler's checks being
distributed?

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A No. Rob Owen and I had a barely eunicable relation-
ship, and we did not discuss things too much. I didn't
approve of his activities, so we didn't discuss things.

Q What did you know of his activities?

A I suspected etn awful lot, but he was a private
citizen working for apparently, at the behest of the National
Security Council staff, I didn't approve of that, and Colonel
North was aware of that.

Q What knowledge did you have of the activities of
Frank Gomez in terms of providing assistance to the contra
leadership? . " '

A Absolutely none.

Q Do you recall a conversation with Oliver North on
the 31st of August, 1984 related to the contract for Frank
Gomez, telephone conversation?

A I don't recall it.

Q Did you keep Oliver North informed of what you
were doing in relation to the press out of LFO?

A Generally. But we didn't feel that he was our
master. Occasionally we would keep him apprised, as we kept
Walt and we kept Constantine apprised and other people,
but I didn't give him daily reports by any stretch of the
imagination. We didn't think he was our sort of master.

Q Do you recall calling Oliver North on September 11,
1984 to discuss a News Week article, CMA; or a News Week

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21
22
23

24
25

article? I am not sure what topic.

A No.

Q Do you recall a News >feek piece on Saa Jose people?
V. -

A I don't right now. There were hundreds — I read
six or eight newspapers a day, and I don't know what else.
But I don't recall that conversation.

Q Do you recall a conversation where you talked
to him about Owen setting up an operation with Senator
Symms? ^,,r^ , , , v, _ _ ^^^, - ,-f ,,, j

No. .,r. v..^- ,-.'. ... : .-

Did you travel to Central America in 1984?
Yes. I thiiiJc I did. ^
What was the purpose of your traveling there?
The first trip was just to get acquainted with,
go down to Salvador, go down to Honduras, go to Nicaragua,
talk to people in the opposition in Nicaragua. It was all
done under the auspices of the American Embassy, and I had
a project officer from the Public Affairs Office at each
stop.

Q Do you recall talking to Oliver North on September
12, 1984 about the Sandinistas having accepted all Contadora
conditions?

A No, but I wouldn't be surprised if I did.

Q How would you have known about that?

A I don't know. I don't know whether it was through

taigLiggiTica-

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147

cabl* traffic or anything else. I mean, this is a rather
vague question.

Q I an actually reading from Oliver North's notes
relating to phone calls that he attributes to you. I am
asking if you recall —

A I don't recall them. X wouldn't be surprised if
they did, if we did, but I don't recall it.

Q Oo you recall talking to him eQ>out Cruz's
conditions having been modified?

A I don't recall it, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Q Hhy wouldn't you be surprised? Old you know some-
thing Jibout Cruz's conditions being modified?

A As I indicated to you X don't know how many tines,
X was one of the ones indicating that they had better use
Arturo Cruz or the President's Central America policy was
dead on arrival, and Ollie was not a big proponent of
Arturo Cruz, so X would not be surprised if there was some
conversation in that regard.

Q Do you remember calling Oliver North on September 27,
1984 about the Ortega visit to New York and Los Angeles in
September and October of 1984?

A Probably. X don't recall it, though. X mean, the
answer is X don't recall it, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Q You do not recall anything about the conversation?

A No. My God, I mean, I had probably 80 phone

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9

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conversations a day. I don't recall those things.

Q Do you recall Oliver North having called you on the
10th of November and asking you to contact —
MR. CHRISTMAS: What year, sir?
MR. OLIVER: 1984. , ^.

BY MR. OLIVER:

Q — and asking you to contact Frank Gomez , having
Gomez contact Adolpho Calero to take out a major fund-raising
ad? .— ... - -- , ,^ .;.

A I don't remember that. ^
) Q Do you remember a meeting on February 11, 1985
with Oliver North, Otto Reich, yourself. Halt, Gomez and
Frank Raymond about the NRF fund-raiser?

A I remember we had lots of meetings on that.
.,, Q What was your role in the NRF fund-raiser?

A Originally the idea — it came up while I was on
holiday, Christmastime, and I ceune back, and everybody was
excited about this, and I said "I smell a rat", and I told
«A|| I didn't think we should be involved except to the
extent if it was a good function, it would be a good place
for the President to make a speech, at which point we had a
meeting in which I said to everybody, I remember, that we
should go slow. ^ |! »„

- Q Who was in these meetings? Who is we?

A I remember Otto was probably in it and either Walt

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149

or Ollie, but this whole thing came about with a bunch of
conservative people during the Christmas Holidays, and my
concern was these were nothing but a bunch of hucksters
ready to rip off the proceeds.

And from that point on, I asked Otto if there was
to be any government contact, it be me, because I was very
queasy about the whole thing.

Q You wanted to be the government contact?

A If there was going to be any, because I frankly
didn't trust other people. Z mean, I didn't, my — it turns
out Z wasn't the only contact. There were contacts with the
NSC. My job was basically to make sure the President of
the United States was not walking into an embarrassing
situation and lo and behold, he did.

Q So you were the contact and North was the contact
at the NSC?

A Z don't know. He may have been. Ollie had, as
yo« know, independent channels all the time. 1 took over the
SlAi Department liaison with this group because Z was very
queeay about it, and Z was afraid, Z wanted to be able to
bail out if it was as rotten as Z sunsised it was.

Q Mho were the people that were involved in organizing
this dinner?

A Z can't remember. They were a bunch of lawyers,
and that in itself says it. They had no background in

766

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> V .'Af.S

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i'^ ■

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o,:?

Central America affairs. "TTTey just indicted half the
metropolitan area.

Q Let the record show there are five lawyers in the
room, including me, and the witness

A I can't —

Q You don't remember — why were you queasy about these
people if you didn't know who they were?

A No, I had met with them. First Otto ceune to roe
and described what was going on. I said, "Hold it, this
doesn't sound right." Then I met with them, and I can't
remember who they were. It was a law firm. They were
basically dropping all sorts of political names, they were
going to do this and that, they had really good ideas about
how they were going to take the proceeds, and I can smell
W.C. Fields a mile away, and there was that all over this
dinner.

That is when I said, "Otto, let me take care of
this." We basically had to have a hands-off thing, make sure
tlMjl^ dinner is okay enough for the President to show up,
but we are not going to be involved in it. I was worried
the U.S. Government was going to get too involved in it.

Q Did you know Walt Raymond and Ollie North arranged
for a briefing at the White House in late January for the
people they wanted to recruit to participate in this dinner?

Yes.

HMfil flQQIF;CH

767

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1 Q Did you attend that?

2 A No. Well, I may have, I can't say absolutely,

3 but I don't recall.

4 Q Old that function and the results of it assuage

5 your fears about this dinner?

6 A The dinner itself was basically to give people a

7 flavor of the situation in Central America. What I remember

8 had absolutely nothing to do with the selling of tickets.

9 My concern was the integrity of people raising things for a

10 humanitarian effort, and I had a feeling all the proceeds

11 were going to evaporate. As it turns out, there were no

12 proceeds.

13 Q This meeting I am talking about, as referred to

14 in Ollie North's notes, took place on the 11th of February,

15 1985; you, Ollie, Frank Gomez and Walt Raymond. Do you
'19 recall that meeting? „,

17 A Ho, X don't recall it, but it would make perfect

18 sensa that masting b« held.

19 Q You recall a meeting in which a new board for this

20 qrtnp was discussed that irould have involved Moody Jenkins

21 and someone named Dupont or Moralier?

22 f^ Yes. Because X was concerned that it be a group

23 of people, if the President of the United States was going

24 to be involved and there was going to be an actual fund-

25 raising effort on behalf of raising money for refugees and

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yl'A

2
3

it was going to have the White House imprimatur on it, that
there be people of integrity on the board.

And at that time, I was really worried about the
fact that this law firm was basically giving us bad vibes.
And some of these people we mentioned had been actively
involved in the humanitarian activities in the past. People
like Woody Jenkins.

Q Which Dupont would this have been?

A I probably recommended Elise, Pete Dupont 's wife.

Q Did you recommend these ncunes?

A I think I recommended Elise, I knew her, and she
was very good in that area.

Q And when you — you say you recommended, who did
you recommend these people to?

A Just to the group. These are notes — I don't
think she was ever approached.

Q Was somebody in this meeting sort of in charge of
working with this NRF group in February, 1985? i^S^

A Well, I attempted to and Ollie was the-fea^-charge
person, and I had the feeling he was going to go off and run
his own thing. I was going to try to sort of go slow and
suggest these guys, if they were going to try to involve the
President, better sort of clean up their act. I always got
the feeling that they were talking to other people as well

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153

1 Q Do you remember going to Managua on the 24th of

2 February, 1985 and returning on the first of March?

3 A Probably. That was about the time that I was going

4 down for another — I am not sure if I went down there then.

5 I did go to Managua sometime in '85, but I can't say it was

6 there. There were sometimes travel orders cut that were never

7 used. At some point in 1985, I did go down.

8 Q How many times did you go to Managua?

9 A Twice.

10 Q Once would have been this time about 1985.

11 A I eun not sure if it was then or later. Once in

12 '84 and once in '85.

13 Q What was the purpose of going?

14 A Just to be up-to-speed. It was difficult to try

15 to sit there and argue things with peopl^. I wanted to go

f.:

15 down and talk to the people of LaPrenYa, I wanted to

17 talk to people in the church, things like that. Once again,

18 I had an embassy Public Affairs Officerl everything was done

19 tlurough the embassy.
20
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154

Q Did Walt Raymond arrange that?

A I haven't the slightest idea. It might have been
going on. He gave me a respectful hearing.

Q You never followed up?

A That was not my job. I was just coming back and
reporting on it. I did not get as hospitable a hearing
with Ollie.

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155

Q Do you know Roy Godson?

A Yes, but not very well.

Q How do you know him? '. i - ,:

A I can't remember where I first met Roy, although
I did see him on a ohow the other day. I think I may have
met him as I was leaving LPD, and he was working at the
NSC as a consultant. I am not sure. 1 got to know Roy
better in a social setting when I was at NSC. Never worked
with him, though.

Q Do you remember a meeting on the 18th -- well,
do you remember a meeting in the 1985 — I can't read the
note in this group of documents — with yourself and Rob
Owen and Ollie North where you discussed meetings with
Boscc, Menges, Manion and Riley?

A Oh, yes. I don't remember that specific instance,
but I remember my concerns over especially Bosco, and I
wouldn't be surprised if Rob was present.

Q Who were Menges, Manion and Riley?

A This covers the universe obviously. Bosco was
Adolpho Calero's spokes-person, Constantine Menges was the
Special Assistant to the President for Latin American Affairs,

UWA h^Ririi::\

772

iffloetssifRgT

th€ National Security Council. Chris Manion is well loved
oat Capitol Hill, and Bob Riley was Faith Whittlesey's
sort of — is presently I think still with her in Switzerland,
but was her public liaison etfieer. If those four people
came up in conversation, it covered the universe.

Q Old Chris Manion have any role in the Central
America public diplomacy activities?

A Not that X am aware of.

Q Any role that, you know of with the contras?

A Not that I an aware — well, I had always heaurd
that Chris had his own foreign policy vis-a-vis the contras.
I never had actual knowledge of it.

Q Did you ever know of a press conference arranged
for Calero at Carnegie Institute and " —

A I may have, but I don't recall it.

Q Do you ever remember discussing with Walt Raymond
about funding?

A X don't recall it, but it is conceivable.

\fi Do you remember on the 3rd of July, it must be

talking to Ollie North on the telephone aJx}ut ABC

going to air a program that night on an interview with people

in Costa Rica? Do you remember an ABC interview with people

in Costa Rica?

A It is conceivable, and it was probably done by
Peter Collins, who was their correspondent do%m there.

773

owAffrav^

157

' Q Why would you have been calling Ollie North on

2 tMll?

3 A I wanted him to be aware of it. There were times

4 I want people to see that. There was such an obsession at

5 the White House we were getting bad press. We felt when there

6 was a ''firabla" piece coming out, they ought to be aware of

7 it.

8 Q On the 12th of July, according to Ollie North's

9 notes, you had a meeting with him, and among other things

10 that were apparently discussed were a meeting with someone

11 named S-c-h-o-r-r.

12 A Oh, yes.

13 Q Do you know someone named Schorr?

14 A I think he was one of the lawyers involved in the

15 Nicaraguan, the refugee dinner, and they later came up with

16 those cockamamie idea for Nicaraguan war bonds, which I thought

17 was one of the stupidest ideas I had seen in a while, which

18 later came out in the press. I would surmise Rob was talking

19 j^^H^" about this bond proposal.

20 ll^r^ ^ y^" remember discussing Schorr dealing with

21 Singlaub?

22 A No.

23 Q Do you know a man named Larry Spivey?

24 A I know of a man neuned Larry Spivey. I never met

25 the man.

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Q What do you know of him?

A ^ J._ think he was involved, from what the press said,
in eiA. I am not sure.

All you know of him is through the press?

Right.

You never had any contact with him in the White

No.

What was the relationship of LPO to the RIG?

Q
House?

A None. We >Mi»iH-e allowed in it, which was much
to Ambassador Reich's consternation. We were not privy to
it, any RIG meetings at all that I am aware of. Ambassador
Reich may have attended one or two. Ambassador Motley
did not think it was appropriate.

Q Did you discuss with any of the participants in
the RIG what went on in the RIG after these meetings, or
outside the RIG? • -•

A Something may have come up, but I can't say it
dflik't, but usually that was a pretty closely held group.
Aav w* were not looked upon as a substantive operation. We
weren't privy to that sort of stuff.

Q You met on a regular weekly basis in this Central

America Public Diplomacy Group which

nd Oliver

North also participated in from time to time. Did they —

A If^^^Jdid, for the record, it was very sparingly.

775

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3
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5

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X don't ranember seeing hin regularly.

Q If he wai not there, there would have been a
representative in the agency's place, isn't that the case?

A In very rare instances. I can't deny there were
probably agency people wandering in and out. It was mostly
USIA, ourselves and ffalt. I think Halt felt he was a good
enough liaison for the agency himself.

Q What was your responsibility in dealing with the
Democratic Resistance?

A Nell, originally it was none, and it sort of, X
guess I emotionally got involved

Q Were you aware of the frequent contact between
Oliver North and Rich Miller?

A At the time I was at S/LPD, I wasn't aware of

that, that it was that frequent. When I got to the National
Security Council, I, through just what people would say,
it was obvious that the relationship had blossomed.

776

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160

Q Well, in 1985, according to Oliver North's calendar,
and it is not a complete calendar, but indications there that

we have were that you were on his calendar 39 times in 1985,

and Rich Miller was on his calendar a similar cunount of

times. And Rich Miller was a contractor with the State

Department on the contract, you were the overseer.

A Rich Miller was not, his corporation was.

Q He was the President of the corporation that signed
the contract.

A Right. We, as I have stated before, we did not
hire Rich Miller's services, we hired Frank Gomez.

Q We can go back and look at the contract.

A I am not disputing that Mr. Oliver —

Q The contract in 1985 ran from October 1, 1984,
through September 30, 1985, was signed by Rich Miller as
President of IBC.

A And all I aun stating —

Q And you were the primary person in LPD responsible
fo* that contract.

A And I dealt almost exclusively with Frank Gomez .
I just think that that has to — there is an innuendo there
I didn't like.

Q Were you aware of the frequent meetings between
Frank Gomez and Oliver North in 1985?

A I didn't think there were that many frequent

UN£LASSIF:til

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161

1 meetings. I was aware Oliver North and Rich Miller had

2 meetings, because of Congressman Kuykendall in '85,

3 I don't know how — 1 didn't realize it was as many numbers

4 as you said. I did not realize until the press reports that

5 the relationship took on a different patina, and that

6 was after I left the State Department.

7 So to the extent there were any contacts, the

8 ones I was aware of between Oliver North and Rich Miller

9 involved vis-a-vis Congressman Kuykendall.

10 Q What was your understanding of what they were doing

11 with Oliver North and Dan Kuykendall?

12 A Ollie had the tendency to work lots of different

13 things without anybody's knowledge of what was going on. I

14 understood he was dealing with Kuykendall on how to work on

15 the Hill during the run-up to the various and sundry votes,
ig and Rich Miller was, had been retained by Congressman

17 Kuykendall in the Gulf and Caribbean Council. They worked

18 their little thing, and we occasionally, as I said, over-

19 Kipped. I didn't see that much of them.

20 Q Do you remember a meeting on January 16 at 9:30

21 in the morning at Oliver North's office?

22 A January 16, what year?

23 Q 1985. Meeting with you, Frank Gomez, Rich Miller in

24 Oliver North's office?

25 A No. But it may have happened. I don't recall it.

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21
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Q Do you recall a meeting at 9:30, January 25, in
the White House Situation Room with Lou Lehrman, Sanchez,
Oliver North, Walt Raymond, yourself. Rich Miller, Frank
Gomez and Jeff Bell?

A I think I do. I can't recall all those people
were there. I think there may have been a meeting.

162

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779

rest.

I don't remember Jeff Bell but I remember the

(Discussion off the record.)

BY MR. OLIVER:

Do you recall what the purpose of that meeting

163

was?

A I think Lou Lehrman had indicated as it was
well known that he was interested in pushing the President's
agenda, and Ollie was very smitten with Citizens for
America, and thought that this was one thing just like
tax reform and everything else that Citizens for America
would be involved in, and I think that was the purpose of
having Lou Lehrman down, to talk about that, but I can't
remember anything beyond that.

Q Do you remember any follow-on or follow-up to
that meeting?

A No. At one time our office had a very good
relationship with Citizens for America, but it sort of
petered out and much earlier than that.

0 When you said had good relationship, what do you
mean?

A Well, they would ask for material and we would
provide it, things like that. That was the extent of it.

Q Was that group there basically the Central
America working group on public diplomacy?

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A Mr. Sanchez would rarely attend, if ever, that
whole diplomacy group. He would show up at the legislative
strategy meetings that were held when we were getting ready
for a vote, but Mr. Sanchez was never involved in public
diplomacy operations.

Q You are talking about the legislative strategy
meetings that were going on primarily when you were working
in Ollie North's office?

A Right.

Q But the meetings weren't chaired by North, were

they?

A Oh, no. Which ones?

Q The legislative strategy.

A No, Don Fortier.

Q You participated in those meetings and Ollie
North and who else participated?

A The Fortier group.

Q Yes, legislative strategy group, I think you

referred to it. ^/^/»r/^

A I thinkflH^^Hl think ^^F-TTdepended
on who was there, what time. Usually — I can't remember
the names now -- at least three people from the White House
Legislative Affairs Office, usually Ed Fox from State
Department congressional affairs, Jim MichelJ^as always
there from ARA. Early on it was Constantine. Later on it

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became Ray Bunihardt, later on Elliott Abrams, they showed
up, that was right before I left.

Q Did Otto also participate with you in these
meetings?

A Very rarely.

Q You were the representative of LPD in these

165

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meetings?

A Basically I became sort of the gtrfer of the
meeting. I wasn't there in an LPD sense. I was the idiot
that would agree to take on certain things and put in many
hours.

Q Who was asking you to take on these things?

A It depended who was in that group. It was a
rather egalitarian group and by consensus. Sometimes Ron
Sable, sometimes Ollie, sometimes Jim Michel.

Q Were you ever gofer f or ^^^^^^^^^H ^<^

^^^Hand I had fundamental disagreementi'.

No.

Q Do you remember a meeting on January 28th with
Ollle North and Bob Riley, Jackie Tilman, ConstantinP
Otto, you and John Norton Moore to discuss the constitu-
tional and legal aspects of U.S. involvement in Central
America?

A No, I would have really remembered that one.
That is an interesting gang^f people, but I don't remember
that meeting. I w*» the Trotskyite in that group.

UNCLASSIR^D^

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Q Do you remember a meeting on —

MR. CHRISTMAS: Are you saying that all these
meetings occurred or are you asking in a general sense?

MR. OLIVER: I'm asking whether he recalls them.
I tell you, counsel, that these meetings are indicated in
Oliver North's calendar. That is why I'm asking about
them.

MR. CHRISTMAS: You are not saying they actually
occurred.

MR. OLIVER: I'm not saying they actually occurred.
I'm asking whether he remembers if they occurred. I'm
only asking about meetings where his name appears on this
calendar. The indications are that they did occur, because
on most occasions on this calendar, the meetings had not
occurred there was a line, an X drawn through them or they
wrote "canceled," but I have no way o£ knowing that they
occurred except on the basis of the fact that they are on
this calendar, others have testified to some of these
actings, and so I'm just asking you about these meetings
wli«re your name appears on this calendar.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Just trying to get a little
discovery which I did.

MR. OLIVER: Yes, you did. I'm not trying to
hide from you.

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BY MR. OLIVER: r '

Q Do you remembar a OMeting that %K>uld hava taken
place between you, Oliver Horth, Rob Owen, Rich Miller,
and Frank Gomez, on February 27, 1985?

A It's possible.

Q Do you remember a meeting with those participants
in it?

A I can't deny that there was one. It's possible,
but I don't recall it.

Q Would it have been normal for you to meet with
that particular group of people?

A Especially if I was upset with trtiat I thought
was Calero getting out of control again, since at that
point Rich Miller was vrorking very closely with Calero,
emd Rob Owen was Calero 's sort of lieutenant. I may have
very well tjJcen my concerns of I

Q You would go to Horth with these concerns?

I would sometimes sort of get everything together,
'it seems like Ollie was the only one that certain

HeAi

people would pay attention to. I mean it was better than
sort of washing my hands and walking away from it.

Q Do you remember a meeting with Oliver North on
or about March 28, 1985, Grover Norquist and Jack Abramoff,
and Grover Norquiest and Oliver North?

A I don't know Grover Norquiest, but it's

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conceivable I have met Jack before, that that meeting took
place.

Q Do you know someone nauned Brokaw?

A I know we did one session with Tom Brokaw at the
NSC to give him an intelligence briefing along with some
other people, and that could have been a reference to that.

Q Do you remember a meeting with you and Tom Brokaw
and Ollie North in Ollie's office?

A No, I would have known that. I mean I have met
Brokaw before, and I would have remember that.

Q You met on several occasions with Oliver North
and Arturo Cruz, Jr.,' did you not?

A Yes.

Q What was the purpose of those meetings?

A Usually Arturo would come to me very, very
concerned over whatever the crisis of the moment is, and
with Nicaraguans there is a crisis usually ever two hours,
and if it was bad enough and he was threatening to have
YkJtm father pull out of the resistance, I would say, "Ollie,
will you at least listen to Arturo," and I would bring him
over, but for every session that Arturo Cruz, Jr., had
with Ollie, I must have had five or six.

Q With Arturo Cruz, Jr., or Ollie?

A Junior. Arturo Cruz, Jr. Actually --

Q You were sort of the technical representative

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on his contract, is that correct? ? ^i

A I didn't know at the time that he had a contract.

Q Didn't he have a contract with LPD to write

three articles? -< :

A Yes, he did, but I don't think I was his technical

representatj

Q Do you remember a meeting in June of 1985, a
lunch at the IBC office with Frank Gomez, Rich Miller and
yourself, Oliver North and Otto?

MR. CHRISTMAS: What is the date?
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q June 5, 1985. This would have been about --

A I don't recall it, but it would not have been
necessarily — i '

Q Do you remember a discussion at that meeting
about the Spitz Channell fund-raiser that was about to take
place at the White House within the next ensuing two days?

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A If it were put in that phraie, I would have
remembered it because that would have been blatantly
illegal. We don't do fund-raisere at the White House.

Q A briefing followed by a fund-raiser?

A I don't specifically recall it, but I won't

discount it.

Q There is an entry on Oliver North's calendar on
June 17, 1985, it has your name, 4:30 on June 17, and in
parenthesis it has cited -(Green-bearded one)." Do you know
what that referred to?

A I was asked that by the Independent Counsel, and
I don't have the slightest idea. I'm totally baffled by
it.

Q There are numerous meetings on Oliver North's
calendar with just you and him, and nobody else indicated
being present. What wa. the purpose of these meetings?

A on the whole I think it was - I hate to sound
repetitive, but my concern that Ollie had a total fixation
with the military operation, and that there were so many
other ways. The only way that we could prevail in Nicaragua
was through internal and external political opposition.

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1 work with labor unions, et cetera, and I would come back

2 with exeunple after example after example, and it got to be

3 rather tiresome. There were times he would almost throw

4 me out of the office, but I just felt that he was wedded

5 too much to the Calero military operation.

6 Q So all these meetings were primarily to discuss

7 Central American strategy, is that correct?

8 A In most cases. I can't rule out anything else.

9 That was the preponderance of the meetings.

10 Q If you will remind me again, what was the

11 date of your dcparLwent from LPD?

12 A Roughly the third or fourth week in August of

13 1985.

14 Q And what was your relationship with Oliver

15 North after that?

15 A Purely social. I attended two legislative

17 strategy meetings after I went to the NSC, and then I told

18 tlpai I didn't have enough time.

19 ^ Q Where did those meetings take place?

20 A The Situation Room. The rest of it was social

21 and we usually sat together at 7:30 a.m. staff meetings.

22 Q On August 26, September 20, October 15 —

23 MR. CHRISTMAS: Can you give me those dates?

24 MR. OLIVER: August 28, August 29, September 20,

25 October 15, and December 11, 1985.

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- ' '■ MR. CHRISTMAS: Thank you.
"■ ■ BY MR. OLIVER:

Q And on March 10, 1986, you are indicated as having
meetings alone with Oliver North in his office, on his
calendar. Could those meetings have taken place?

A Very conceivably. We were both professional
members of the NSC staff. It may have been over actually
nothing. I have to point out at that point I was up to my
ass, I did about 15 foreign trips preparing the President
for his Geneva summit, for his Tokyo summit, for his trip
to Grenada, to Mexico, for his U.N. trips and I was handling
20 visits from people like Nakasone, Thatcher and everybody

else.

Q These were not social visits?

A I think they probably were. I didn't have time
for Latin American affairs, and was very happy to be out
of it, and wasn't at all aware of his other activities, so
th«5 were probably just going in and shooting the breeze
vim a colleague, I don't know, but he was very impossible
to go by and see, and he was a good friend, and it's like
getting a private audience with the Pope to get through
Fawn to see if you could just come by and see Ollie. I
don't know what those were about, but I would bet the ranch
that they were not about Central America.

Q Do you remember a meeting on March 25, 1986,

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173

with Oliver North, yourself, Mitch Daniels, Penn Kimble,
and perhaps others in Oliver North's office?

A No, and I know all those people very well.
I do not remember that meeting at all. It was March?

Q March 25, 1986.

A I seriously doubt that I was even in town.
I was probably in Asia at the time, but I don't remember
that meeting at all.

Q Did you use the secure phone at LPD?

A Yes.

Q Very often?

A Yes.

Q Did you have your own secure phone?

A No. I mean we had, I think, one instrument with
two extensions, one which was Ambassador Reich's office,
the other which was on top. Well, maybe I did have. We
had one instrument with two extensions. I can't remember,
b«t ay office was literally right next door to Ambassador

ilich's.

Q Did most offices in the State Department have
secure phones?

A Yes, most offices had them. Not every single
office, but most, the Central American office at ARA, the
South America office, every office would at least have
one instrument, if they had to do anything in the secure

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,15

area.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Miller Exhibit 10.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 10
. _. was marked for identification.)

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q I ask you to examine this .
A Variations on the same thing.

MR. CHRISTMAS: There is no question pending.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q I had asked the witness to examine this memoran-
dum. Are you familiar with this memorandum?
A It looks familiar.
Q Did you sign it?

A I probably did. It looks like my signature.
Q Are these the New York Times and Washington Post
op-ed pieces that were discussed earlier that were prepared
by your consultant?

A I would think, given the timing, they probably
are .

Q You indicate that Alfonso Robelo is in Washington
this week and he has made contact with one of your consul-
tants who is actively engaged in seeing that Mr. Robelo
has meetings with the Washington Post, Newsweek, Scripps-
Howard and so on. Who is that consultant?

791

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175

A I think, to repeat your question of previous times,
it's probably Frank Gomez.

Q Was it the normal practice for Mr. Robelo to
contact your consultant or to contact you through your
consultant rather than contacting you directly?

A There wasn't any set pattern in the whole thing.

Q You refer in the last paragraph to an NBC news
story on the contras, in a cassette. Did you all have
anything to do with that story?

A I think that we may have suggested to Fred that
he go do%m to do that, which if we hadn't, we wouldn't be
ding our job.

Q Did you assist him?

A No.

Q In any way?

A We did not, not that I'm aware of. We didn't
accompany hin or emything else. Fred Francis also did
s(»ie very damaging pieces on the contras as well.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 11.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 11
was marked for identification.)
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Do you remember receiving this memorandum.

Mr. Miller?

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A Yes, I do.

Q Who is Judge Barbieri?

A Janis Barbieri. She was an employee of LPD who
worked with the media.

Q She was one of the schedule C's that you referred
to earlier, is that correct?

A Yes.

Q What had she done prior to coming to LPD, do you
remember?

A Among other things she was a press secretary
to Senator Hiakawa. She worked the Williamsburg summit,
the press. She is one of those people we all know and
love who has been around for a long time, good press back-
ground.

Q Does this memorandum represent the kinds of things
that your staff was regularly engaged in at LFD?

A Oh, I would say we probably engaged in maybe
5 percent of the stuff that was generated, but it was the
t^^f* of thing that we did. We were asked to do. We worked
in this case, she worked very closely with the Public
Affairs Bureau, you know, Agronsky, or if a talk show was
having speakers on, we were the ones that were supposed
to get speakers on for the administration side, but, yes,
that is reflective of what we did.

Q Do you recall whether or not this press plan

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177

was carried out?

A No. In most cases little bits and pieces of
different things would come about, but we never took anything
in total. ,

MR. CHRISTMAS: I realize from the layman's view-
point the government generates too much paper.

THE WITNESS: They love paper in the State
Department .

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Miller Exhibit 12.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 12
was marked for identification.)
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q I ask you to examine that. Do you recall this
contract with Martin Arostequi?
A Yes, I do.

Q fifid what was the genesis of your acquaintanceship
with Mr. Arostequi?

A I barely knew the man. I think he may still
be on the faculty at Georgetown, and because he had been
Otto's professor. Otto recused himself, but I think he is
another Cuban emigre who happens to be well regarded in
academia to the extent that anybody is well regarded in
academia, and I do remember him doing some publication
which was attributed as being paid for by the State

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Department, and that is the extent of it.

Q Did you provide Mr. Arostequi with declassified
intelligence information for this article?
A No, I did not.
Q Did LPD provide it?

A I cannot tell you one way or the other.
Q Have you looked through the requirements of
this contract and the two papers, and which topics they
are? Does that refresh yoxir memory as to whether or not
you provided declassified information to Mir. Arostequi
for the purpose of these papers? •

A No, it doesn't because I may have been put down
as the COTR but I think Dave Randolph — I'm trying to
see when this actually took place.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Can you give us the date,
counsel?

MR. OLIVER: There is July 9, 1985, memorandum
from Frank Gardner to Pat Kennedy indicating that Jonathan
MiUer will serve as the COTR on this contract.

' '" THE WITNESS: At the time that this was under-
taken, it was understood that David Randolph, I think,
who was the former Foreign Service Officer, he is a
Foreign Service Officer formerly had been with the U.S.
embassy in Managua, was to work with Professor Arostequi.
I was not there. This is right at the time I was winding

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things up, and I know that a publication came out that
was after I left, so I can't really testify to anything
beyond that .

Q Did you meet with Mr. Arostequi about this
project?

A I think I met with him once.

Q And what was discussed at that meeting?

A Basically that he would undertake a publication
regarding — not publication, a series of writings on sort
of the leftist network, and then it was sent through the
line of contracting officers and things like that to see if
it would fly.

By the time it got very fair, I had already left,
so I really can't tell you much beyond that.

Q The date is July 9?

A I think that is when it was submitted. It would
not have come back until after I left. I don't remember
ever having after my one meeting and submitting it through
Frank Geurdner, ever having any other dealings. I was
told later on that something was published.

Q If it was performed within 30 days it would have
been performed before you left.

A I don't remember it being performed. I don't
remember the paperwork coming back. It may be performed
after it's certified by the State Department contracting

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people, but it may take months for it to get through that

Byzantine mess.

Q That date on the purchase orders was July 9, but
the contract itself says that he was going to commence
performance on September 30, 1984, and I know how slow the
State Department is .

A I didn't work on this, and I remember something
came out, but I can't tell you other than the fact that it
was not my area of expertise. Frank Gardner had a tendency
at this point to make me COTR for everything, and actually
Dave Randolph was going to work with him on that.

Q Did you ever complain to Frank Gardner about this?
A No, because, my God, when I was at the White
House I certified things that my accountants would say was
for the President's expense account and I didn't go up to
the pantry to see if flour was used. It was something
that was required, so I did it.

Q YOU were the COTR on at least several, if not
MC«, contracts, and is it your testimony that you didn't
take that seriously?
A No.

Q Or you didn't do this job?

A I'm not saying that. I am saying that there were
people that were actually capable people in certain areas.
David Randolph's expertise is far better on this. He

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181

would work in a substantive fashion. I would get something
submitted to me after somebody like David Randolph has said
we have worked on this, we have scrubbed it, it's good,
let's go with it, and then I would certify it; just in the
same manner my accountants at the VThite House would
certify something I %rauld look at the back-up material and
certify it, but it was obviously gleaned by people that
knew that sort of thing.

Q Are you aware that under government regulations
COTRs are not supposed to delegate their authority?

A No , I ' m not .

Q Did you ever read the back-up papers on these
contracts that you initiated and oversaw and submitted the
certifications for the work performed on?

A I didn't actually see the contracts that were
submitted. As you will notice, I don't think I ever signed
a contract, but the answer is no, I didn't read any of
that.

Q So you didn't really know 4iat a COTR was supposed
to do, even though you were one; is that your testimony?

A I would say that in hindsight I probably should
have been more scrupulous, that's all I'm saying, not
scrupulous, more exacting.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter
to mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 13.

798

182

1 (Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 13

2 was marked for identification.)

3 BY MR. OLIVER:

4 Q This is a memorandum from George Twohie to Frank

5 Gardner, a purchase order contract for Mr. Arturo Cruz,

6 Sequeira cleared by Frank Gardner for Jonathan Miller.

7 At the bottom, I believe those are Frank Gardner's initials,

8 are they not?

9 A Yes, they are.

10 Q And indicating that you had served as COTR. Do

11 you recall this purchase order?

12 A I recall it after conversations between Ambassador

13 Reich and Arturo Cruz about it.

14 Q Is that Arturo Cruz, Jr., or Sr.?

15 A Junior, it's Jr. r '

15 Q This purchase order indicates on the fourth page

17 here that you will furnish all substantive guidance and

18 technical advice to the contractor on this project. Did

19 y||j| do that?

20 A No. That was done between Ambassador Reich and

21 Arturo Cruz.

22 Q But you were his good friend and met with him

23 quite often, is that correct?

24 A Yes, but I also didn't feel that I had the

25 competence to judge. I don't remember this back-up material,

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183

to judge this piece, so I actually never was involved in

this piece.

Q You were never involved in this piece?

A No. I admit that I was COTR but I think
Ambassador Reich was involved. i

Q On the last page here you signed the certifi-
cation that he has completed the work and services to the
satisfaction of the contract.

A Right.

Q On July 25, 1986?

A Right, which is for one of his three pieces.
That was only done after it had been reviewed by Ambassador

Reich.

Q But you did not know?
A Right .

Q Whether or not this was the proper work. In
other words, you did this on the basis of his judgment,
not yours, is that what you are saying?

A Yes. An±)assador Reich had a far better sense
of this than I did, in addition to being my boss.

Q Has there anybody else in LPD who was made COTR
for these contracts?

A I'm beginning to wonder. I don't know. I
really don't know.

Q Did you ever become concerned about being the
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COTR on so many contracts that you were overseeing?

A When you are dealing in a setting that is going
a thousand miles an hour, you usually don't pause to reflect
on that sort of thing. I possibly would now, since I spent
four months in Leesburg, Virginia, contemplating all sorts
of things two years ago, but at the time, no.

Q Did anybody oversee these contracts that you
were supposed to be overseeing?

A In many cases different people. As I indicated,
in certain cases it would be David Randolph, in certain cases
Peter Romero, in certain cases it would be Ambassador Reich.

Q But in most cases it wasn't you, is that right?

A I would see the documents after people that had

a much better substantive background signed off on them,

and before they were submitted to our contracting people

who were supposed to know whether they were right or wrong.

Yes, I would see them.

Q The contracting people were supposed to know
whether or not the contract was technically efficient, but
you were the one who certified that the work was done?

A Sometimes it would be kicked back by not just

r^ C«

the contracting people, people in IMOOM, the management
bureau.

Q Do you recall any of those contracts being kicked

back?

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A I remember them being kicked back but I don't
remember which specific ones.

Q Do you remember why they were kicked back?

A There was some deficiency but I can't remember
why.

Q Did it have to do with whether or not the work
was performed?

A I can't tell you. I really don't know.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 14. '-

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 14

'"•■ 'u .■.■.:j ::l 5,-v '^z^l'.

was marked for identification.)
BY MR. OLIVER:

Do you know this? it

I do remember this.

Do you know Michael Waller?

■ \7:. ;ji I'lfu'.-r' ■ ■■ . v-:r;;.;;5'">v

Yes.

Who is Michael Waller? ' -

He was a relatively young man. I'm not sure
where he is working now. He had been working with some
conservative think tanks, and I don't know whether it was
Heritage or where else. This was an area that he was
interested in, and I remember him doing this piece.

Q Was he at Heritage at the time, February 6, 1985,
that this memo was written?

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A I cannot tell you.
Q What did he do for you?

A If I remember correctly, he put together a paper
that was in a Q and A format, trying to connect Salvadoran
guerrillas to the Sandinistas. I haven't seen that paper
in years, and I can't tell you anything beyond that. You've
got the ability to refresh your memory. I can't tell you.
Q In the last page of this exhibit —

MR. CHRISTMAS; Just for the record, it's four
pages.

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Waller indicates in this note to you, "I
chose a series of questions and follow-up questions that
are commonly asked by students and by activists affiliated
with communist support groxips."

Do you know what that refers to, or what communist
support groups he was referring to?

A No, ajid just as you may occasionally sort of
^itt. some of your colleagues say with a grain of salt,
Michael amd I didn't see necessarily eye to eye. Me can put
out good work emd you not agree with him. He had a tendency
to be a bit strident at times in his rhetoric. Those things
that he would call communist support groups I would probably
call liberals.

Q Do you know, Mr. Miller, a man named Jeffrey

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Nelson?

A I don't think so.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Does he have a street name,
counsel?

THE WITNESS: The neune does not immediately
spring to mind.

MR. OLIVER: I ask the reporter to mark this as
Miller Exhibit No. 15.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 15
was marked for identification.)

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q I ask you to examine this. This is a series of
documents, the first of which is dated April 11, 1985, and
running through the 20th of May, 1985, a series of invoices
and memos, purchase orders and contracts related to a
purchase order for Mr. Jeffrey Nelson. Mr. Nelson is
indicated as performing critical services on the direction
of the coordinator of public diplomacy for Latin America.
Itf indicates that you will research and investigate the
response of "opinion elites" to the President's Easter
peace initiative on Nicaragua.

The first one said he would research and
investigate the response of opinion elites to the President's
Easter peace initiative on Nicaragua. And the second one
he will research and write a series of essays and articles

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designed to elicit support of the "persuadable sector of
the opinion elites." -,.■-■ . .; c

Who was he referring to as the opinion elites?
A I don't know. In this case I specifically remember
having a major explosion with Frank Gardner. I hadn't even
seen this.

Q You were the COTR once again?

A I know. As Frank got more comfortable in his job,
I became apparently an automoatic COTR. I don't even remem-
ber Jeffrey Nelson. I still can't place the guy. As I
flip over several pages, 1 see that I did certify.
Q Was Frank a schedule C?

A No, he is a Foreign Serivce Officer about to
retire. He may not have been Foreign Service. He may have
been Civil Service. He had served in posts at one point.

Q This seems to indicate some kind of a problem.
Perhaps it might be easier if you just told us what you
reaember about this, and then if I have questions I will
f«|low up.

A I remember specifically in this case I sort of^__
blew up, because I didn't even know^ My name gets slapped
on something and it gets sent upstairs without even knowing
about it. I cannot place Jeff Nelson. Since I certified
in one case $2000, he must have done something. I think,
and this is a very foggy memory, that I may have shut down

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1 this thing rather than $8000 and paid him $2000 instead

2 after he did some work. This is it, because I don't think

3 I can see from my very foggy memory that we ever paid him

4 anything more, and I certified only one piece, but I remember

5 this was about this time that I had a discussion with Frank

6 Gardner saying, you know, "Frank, let me know about these

7 things."

8 Q You certified one on the 23rd of April, but he

9 kept billing you constantly after that.

10 A I don't think, at least I never certified and

11 I don't think you see any certification. I think I may

12 have --no, I said outside of that.

13 Q This is April 23, the certification that you

14 examined, and then we have got something coming back to

15 Gardner from Nelson on the 26th of June. We've got an

16 invoice on the 23rd of April, an invoice on May 1st, an

17 invoice on May 10, an invoice on May 20. What was going

18 on?

19 A If this is the case that I remember, this is the

20 one where I told Frank I didn't like the contract being

21 sent up with my name without my being aware of anything,

22 and that he did produce some work, and we certified it

23 on one case, and I think, if I may, and my mind is very

24 foggy in this regard, at some point that summer I may have

25 called hira up and said "This is all you are going to get."

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1 I don't think I ever certified more than S2000 on that

2 $8000.

3 Q Did you meet Mr. Nelson?

4 A If I did, he didn't stick in my mind,

5 Q You don't remember having met him prior or since?

6 A No.

7 Q Since this thing?

8 A No .

9 Q If you met him at this time?

10 A Right .

11 O But you do remember talking to him on the

12 telephone?

13 A I think I may have actually called him after he

14 kept submitting this stuff and saying we are going to get

15 out 25 cents on the dollar here.

IS Q In his letter of June 26 to Frank Gardner, he

17 says, "I think that was done and also in lieu of whatever

18 paperwork you got from Jonathan Miller who held my bills,"

19 do you know what he was referring to by that reference?

20 A Yes, I think that I didn't think that he

21 deserved $8000 for what he submitted, from what I remember.

22 I frankly, if I remember correctly, was amazed that this

23 thing had gone through and Frank Gardner had sent it up

24 without my knowledge, and I frankly balked at that price.

25 I thought it was rather heady stuff. I wish I was getting

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paid for that.

Q So that was the end of your episode with Mr.
Nelsorj is that correct? - - ■

A I don't recall anything beyond that. Frankly it
was rip-off prices.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 16.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 16
was marked for identification.)
MR. CHRISTMAS: Mr. Reporter, would you let the
record reflect that it is now approximately 4:49.
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Mr. Miller, this is a letter to you from Mark
Richards Associates, dated September 24, 1984. I think we
discussed this earlier in terms of whether or not you knew
that Mr. Richards, that you were familiar with Mr. Richards
negotiating his contract while he was still employed at
LPD prior to his retirement.

Does this refresh your memory about your know-
ledge of that subject?

A I never had any reason to doubt this at all.
Q This was a letter to you proposing to continue
his efforts as a corporat/^ than as an individual?
A Right.
Q And to do the same thing at the daily rate of

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$330 a day. Did you respond to this proposal?

A The standard operating procedure was the way
it was, I would check with Ambassador Reich and see if he
wanted to do it. I then would hand this to our administra-
tive people to sit down with the contracting people, the
lawyers to see what the problem was, or if there were any,
but I myself would not respond to it until it had gone
through the mill. I'm not sure that I ever did, unless
something was drafted. !^ ~

Q Did anyone raise any problems about the propriety
of this arrangement? . . • ■

A Not that I'm aware of. . -

Q Do you remember receiving this proposal?

A I don't specifically remember it, but I won't
deny that I did.

Q Did you discuss it with Mark Richards at the
time? . ■ --•■

A I said "put your proposal in." What I normally
do with all contracts is put it in writing and we will send
it through the line and see what is Kosher and what is not.

A ^=^

I have never professed, although I got aftfl^ in contracts in
law, I haven't touched them since then, to be a contracting
expert, and never want to be one.

Q Were you aware that this proposal was basically
an arrangement through which Mr. Richards could retire at

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1 full pension and continue to get paid the equivalent of a

2 full government salary while never leaving your office?

3 A I'm not sure I would couch it the way you did,

4 but I was aware that Mark Richards was the main asset of

5 Mark Richards, Inc., and that I was also aware that it

6 should be submitted to our lawyers and contracting people

7 with the requisite background information, and if they had

8 problems with it, they should be checking it out.

9 Q Did you cause it to be submitted to your

10 lawyers?

11 A It always goes to the lawyers.

12 Q Did you cause it to be?

13 A I had it submitted to the contracting office who

14 then was supposed to run it through all the traps .

15 Q And you indicated to them that this was an

16 arrangement that was being worked out with LPD by a person

17 who was currently on detail, a full-time detail to —

1g A I did not. The background was known by whoever

19 did our administrative matters, and they were the ones that

20 talked to the contracting office.

21 Q So is it your testimony that as far as you are

22 concerned, you saw no problems with this arrangement?

23 A I saw no problems if the contracting office had

24 no problems with it. That was their job.

25 Q Did you forward everything, every proposal of the

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contracts office without giving it the benefit of your
judgment?

A I don't see anything wrong with that, if the
requisite back-up material would reflect everything that
they needed to know, and it was obvious on the back-up
material that he had just retired from the U.S. Air Force.

Q Did you make any decisions while you were at

LPD?

As to what, sir?

MR. CHRISTMAS:

BY MR. OLIVER: ^ * [

As to anything, related to your official duties.

I made plenty of decisions on a daily basis.

Do you remember what some of those decisions
related to?

A There were dozens every day, and I really resent
your inference, Mr. Oliver.

Q I'm trying to determine whether or not contracts
that are submitted to you, proposals that are submitted to
you, were subject to any judgment by you before they were
passed on, because your earlier answer seemed to indicate
that it didn't matter to you what was in the proposal as
long as it was okay with contracts and the lawyers.

MR. CHRISTMAS: I object to your characterization.
He did not say that it didn't matter what was in it. Is
there a pending question?

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BY MR. OLIVER:
0 The question was, what decisions did you make?
A I made a myriad of decisions and I would dare
say that you would be hard pressed to come up with decisions
that you make on a daily basis.

Q I'm just trying to determine whether or not you
had anything to do with these contracts, because you indicated
earlier that you didn't fulfill this role of COTR on these
contracts.

A I'm indicating that other people were involved
as well, and there are a lot of other things besides being
a COTR. I worked very haurd, was very proud of my job, and
frankly, because of a lot of McCarthyistic innuendos, lost
my job at the White House, and I'm unemployed and I'm getting
damn sick and tired of this entire fishing expedition.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 17.

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 17
was marked for identification.)
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q There is a PROF note at the bottom of the page
from Rodney McDaniel; the subject is "North's Do Not Admit
Status," and it's to /^SBSR, whoever that is. Do you know
who that would be?

I'm sorry?

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Q At the bottom who this PROF note is to? We )cnow
who it's from. Right above that, it skips a space and says

who it is to.

/5«e<

A No, I don't. Brenda Rigj>. She was the security

lory

officer.

Q This says, "Svabject to Brenda Tti^a, does this mean
he can't get in to see papers under escort? This is bound
to get headlines of the scape-goat variety — need to sort
this out with White House coxinsel and Jonathan Miller."
Was this sorted out with you?
A I don't think so. The sum and substance of this
was I separate very strongly my duties from my personal
relationship. I was deputy assistant to the President for
management at the time. This was Thanksgiving morning.
I know Ollie all too well. I felt that some of the people
at NSC had been to lax in securing Ollie 's office, and all
of a sudden I went, "Holy God, I bet he is going to try to
get into the White House complex on Thanksgiving morning
wHba the guards are down," and I called up Secret Service
and I said, arbitrarily informed Don Regan after the fact
that I put Ollie North on a "do not admit" list because I
said, "All we need is a story of Ollie getting into the
complex." That is what it was all about.
Q What did he say?
A Don Regan? We were both in Santa Barbara at the

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time. That was the end of it. I never heard anything more
from the NSC, never heard anything from the NSC period.

Q Were you involved in any way in the dealings with
the Independent Counsel after it was recorded in which he
was seeking to gain access to White House documents?

A I worked with the White House counsel in providing
logistical support, but that was the extent of it. I did
not control the documents,

Q Were you aware of the documents that were being
requested?

A No, I was not.

Q How did you provide logistical support?

MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse me, counsel. Would you
for the record state how this related to the mandate of
the committee, this area of questioning?

MR. OLIVER: It's related to the investigation of
the Independent Counsel of this particular subject matter
that we are also investigating.

MR. CHRISTMAS: I'm not sure how that is related
spdiiiifically; unless you can clear my ignorance of this,
I'm not sure how this relates to the mandate of the
committee, that Mr. Miller has to answer the questions.
MR. OLIVER: Let me rephrase, counsel.
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Mr. Miller, were you aware of requests for

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docunents coining to the White House from the House Foreign
Affairs Committee, the House Intelligence Committee, the
Senate Intelligence Committee, or the Joint Select
Committee?

A I was aware that requests —

Q Select committees?

A I was aware requests were coming in. I did not
know what the requests are. It was not in my area of
expertise. That was totally between the White House counsel
and the staff secretary, and I'm not involved in either of
those activities or was at the White House at the time.

Q Did you provide any logistical support for the
provision of any of those documents?

A No, I did not.

UNCLASSIRED

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BY MR. OLIVER:

Were you aware of what documents were being request-

ed?

A No. Except to the extent White House counsel put
out a memo to people if they had material that related to them,
they would surrender it to White House counsel so it --

Q Did you surrender any materials you had in your
possession related to your dealings^^th Oliver North?

A I had absolutely n»t. When I left the State
Department, I left everything there. .^ ■ : ■ U

Q Did you copy a personal calendar in '84-85?

A I left my personal calendar at the State Department
with my secretary. I never took it with me. I surrendered
my personal calendar to White House counsel for my White House
days. It was the only personal calendar I still had and
my phone logs. White House counsel has them.

Q ^O" surrendered after you left the White House?
A I had White House counsel inspect all my papers
before I left the White House. .-

Q This was in May 1987 you are referring to, is that
correct?

A Right. I left everything in place when I walked
out of the State Department. I don't believe in personal
papers. I believe those are work papers of the U.S. Government
and just left them there.

iaiCl4.Wir;ch

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I ''

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0 When this story broke in November of 1985, when I
say this story, the President's announcement Ollie North had
been sent back to the Marine Corps^ and Admiral Poindexter
resigned, did you have any discussions after that with Oliver
North?

A I went over probably half an hour after Ed Meese's
press conference and said I was sorry and shook his hand and
left. It is the last time I ever saw Ollie North or talked to
him. '"^'^'" ^*^- '^ '■'■■

Q Did you tell anyone at the White House what your
involvement hadS^^n 1984 and 1985?

A 1 informed Peter Wallison and Don Regan at some
point I am sure my neune would come out.

Q Did you tell them why?

A I didn't recall the check writing incident. I
worked very closely with them and I told them, under the
witch hunt at most, I fear my name would come in.

Q Do you think these investigations are witch hunts?
■<-<"' MR. CHRISTMAS: Objection, do not answer.
BY MR. OLIVER: " ' .''

Q He used the term. ' J; *V?

A That is the term I used with the Chief of Staff
and that was my assumption at the time and, frankly, ray opinion
is not relevant to this.

Q Did you inform these gentlemen in detail about the

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work that you had with Oliver North?

A I really don't know what you mean by that. I did
say to both the Chief of Staff and to the counsel to the Presi-
dent at some point, I am sure, there would be lots of people
that would go after the public diplomacy activities, and while
there was nothing improper or wrong in what we did, that I
might end up qettiix? an embarrassment. I told them immediately.

Q And did they ask you why you thought you would be
an embarrassment? '• '

A Yes.

Q What did you tell them? -

A I told them that our activities would be sort of
smeared and people were — you don't have time to defend
yourselves. You would have to bail out at the time the accusa-
tions came out. I said the same thing to Arthur Culvahouse
when Senator Baker cane on board.

Q Did you tell Mr. Culvahouse at the time that Sena-
tor Baker and Mr. Culvahouse came on in any detail of your
work with Oliver North while you were at LPD?

A No. Because I still do not think smything was
improper or wrong. If anything, I was restraining to the ex-
tent I had any influence on Ollie. I pride myself on integrity.
I never thought anything was wrong. I couldn't reflect on any
of this, but as I said, four months of leisure time in Loudon
County has allowed me to revive all sorts of things. I wouldn't

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change my assumptions now. I just said my name will come up in
this.

Q They did not ask you to provide them with --

A I provided them with as much as possible and they
thought that was a tempest in the teapot.

Q Did you, after this story broke in November of
1985, the ramifications of what you had done with any of the
people who you had worked with in LPD in 1984 and 1985?

A Not really. I didn't think there was a need to.
I still am baffled as to what was, you know, extraordinary or
wrong about what was done at the time.

Q Did you have a discussion with Bruce Cameron in
March of this year about what you had done when you were work-
ing with Oliver North?

A I had a discussion with Bruce, I ran into him on the
street. I guess it was in March. And Bruce was — and I
think I speculated at that point that my role of being, that
I felt I was going to be in an interesting situation, I was
golAf to be damned for something I did, which was exactly what
lots of opponents of the Administration wanted us to do. It
beccime protective. Bruce and I happened to ironically share
an awful, the same position on the opposition, which was some-
where to the left of Ollie's. So, yes, I had a general conver
sation.

Q Did you-Qxaress to him your concern that Oliver

ju-exoress to mm you

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North had gone too far?

A Yes.

Q Do you remember the words that you used?

A No, I don't. But I said to several people I thought
he had gone out of control. He was a power unto himself. I
used fairly strong words and it was obvious that I was very,
very, very upset with Ollie.

Q Why did you think that? Why did you think he had
gone, as you said, out of control?

A It is something that I felt for a long time. I
felt that you could see with Bud McFarlane's departure and
Fortier's death, Ollie was no longer being kept in check. He
was doing too many things at once. I recommended to Rod McDan-
iel he have the contra account teOcen from him because I felt he
shouldn't be doing that.

Q When did you recommend that to Rod McDaniel?

A Last fall, Z think. I meem —

Q What did Rod McDaniel say?

A He agreed.

Q Did anybody do anything about it?

A I think Ollie was one of those people that would
have a temper tantrum and people would back down.

Q Do you know whether or not they did try to take
the contra account from him?

A I do not know. Admiral Poindexter kept things very

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closely to his chest.

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 18.

(Exhibit No. 18 was marked for identification.)
BY MR. OLIVER:

Q You recognize this piece of paper?

A I can put two and two together and figure out
what was done.

Q This was a piece of paper provided to the committee.
It bears the committee identification number N 28807, and
it has handwritten on the bottom of it, confidential, at the
top it has Johnathon Miller. Could you tell us what this piece
of paper represents?

A This is by deduction. I got a phone call from
Fawn Hall, and she was very worried because for some reason
there were lots of cameras outside the southwest gate, and
she said that Ollie was involved in something and she had to
come over and tell me about it, and it was involved with the
hostages and General Secord, who I had never met, and they
wer* %rarried with all the cameras that they be expedited through
the southwest gate. Since I was Deputy Assistant to the
President for Management, people would pay attention to me in
an operational change. I checked with the Secret Service to
make sure their records were sufficient, they could be cleared,
because we would never let anybody in that the computers kicked

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back, and I went down to the southwest gate, and it turns out
it wasn't necessary, they were whisked through immediately.
That is what that was about.

Q Whose hemdwriting is on this page?

A It looks like it is Fawn's.

Q Did she give you this piece of paper with those
notes on it?

A Never saw it. She may have taken that down to the
Secret Service.

Q These people did, in fact, come into the White House
that day?

A I saw a group of people coming in; two people with
what appeared to be General Secord and some other people. Later
on it sounds like they were the same people that went around
in the evening.

Q There are at least what appears to be two different
kinds of handwriting on this piece of paper and on the lower
mid-right it says what appears to be, "Pres leave time." Was
thait Fawn Hall's handwriting?

A I don't know, it looks like it may be. If I recall
correctly, the President was taking off that day on the heli-
copter and Ollie may have taken them out to the south lawn for
departure. That is always good for impressing people.

Q Do you know, in fact, whether these people were
taken out to the south lawn?

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A I don't know. I was shocked when I heard some
people were taken on a tour. /• - . ■ . .

Q Do you know whether or not these people saw the
President?

No, I have no idea. -i

Did you meet them?

No. •■■■ I . -; •' ;

Did you see them? - , ^

I saw them from the car.
Were they dressed in business suits?
I can't remember, I really can't.
Was Ollie with them when you saw them?
No. - • - - .-..;.■ 0. : r,

Was anybody?

What appeared to be General Secord. What I was
told, it was General Secord. I never met the man so I don't
know.

Q Did you ever ask Fawn Hall or Ollie about this
ine4d«nt afterwards?

A No. I assumed they were engaged in hostages nego-
tiations, that was known within the NSC, when I was at the
NSC they were working on that. , . -.

Q How do you know General Secord?
A I don't. ••,

Q How do you know this was General Secord?

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I was told by Fawn.

How do you know it was he you saw?

I don't. That was an assumption on my part.

You have seen General Secord I take it since that

time?

A Oh, yes.

Q After seeing him now does it refresh your memory
as to whether or not that was he with these people?
A No.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Thought he had something.
MR. OLIVER: It was a curious piece of paper.
I would like to have this marked Miller Exhibit No. 19.
(Exhibit No. 19 was marked for identification.)

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q This is a document that is undated that has NSC
matter, plan of action, Donald Regan. It bears the committee
identification number N 35383. Have you ever seen this piece
of paper before?
A No.

Q Have you ever discussed the subject matter of this
piece of paper with Donald Regan?
A No.

MR. CHRISTMAS: May he read it first?

THE WITNESS: I have glanced at it. No, I haven't.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Glance at it then.

iiMci aswr: n

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(The witness complied.)

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BY MR. OLIVER:

Q Are you now sharing offices with Donald Regan?

A He has graciously offered me a free office, yes.

Q How long have you been using a free office?

A About two months.

Q Have you discussed this subject with Donald Regan
during those last two or three months?

A No. I was not involved in any preparation for
him, although: I said, if there is any area I cem help you
out on, let me know. He judiciously decided not to. I told .
him I was coming up here. That was the extent of our conversa-
tion.

Q Here you aware of the role of Richard Miller in
targeting Congressional districts for television ads to be
run in advance of the vote of 1985?

A Could you repeat that?

Q Did you know Richard Miller was involved in the
television ad campaign prior to the vote in 1985 on contra aid:

A I knew that he talked about working with people
on such activities, yes.

Q Were you aware television ads were run prior to
the vote in 1985 on contra aid?

A I was aware there were plans to do so, but I dis-
counted an awful lot of what everybody said they were going
to do because there was an awful lot of bravado around the

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question of efficacy of any of these things.

Q Did you ever see any of the ads?

A I don't think I did.

Q Did you discuss at the Central American Public
Diplomacy meeting, this weekly meeting you were involved in,
did you discuss the activities of your contractors at that
meeting?

A I can't say that we, you know, I can't say that we
didn't, but I don't remember that being a primary topic.
I mean, hell, we may have discussed the Redskins game.

Q These meetings went on once a week. What was
discussed?

A They covered the universe.

Q On Central America?

A Yes. They would cover whether we were going to
send somebody to a conference in London where there were
going to be all sorts of advocates of, from Salvadoran guerillas,
things like that, or we would talk about putting out papers,
we talked about problems we had with staffing and getting
people to place detainees, we talked about everything. It was
basically just to give a thumbnail sketch to Walt what was
going on. He did the seune thing with other public operations,
whether it was Ambassador Helmam or other people.

Q Why was USIA represented at this meeting?

ii>f'

A Because USIA was actively involved in putting out

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our positions outside the United States. It was quite — that
is part of their charter.

Q Why was the CIA there?

A I don't remember the CIA being there that often.
To the extent they were there, I can't tell you why. I do
not remember them being a major player. I can only remember
a couple of times there were agency people there.

Q Did Walt Raymond from time to time tell you all to
do things, why don't you guys do this, do that, or I think
you ought to embark on x, y, or z program. Did he task you
from time to time?

A Yes.

Q Did you submit written reports to the NSC about
what you were doing or was this all done orally in these
weekly meetings?

A Mostly orally. Once in a while there would be a
NSC or NSPG in which Otto would give a briefing to all the
people in the Situation Room. It might be once every six
months. That was not the only meeting. We would give a report
in the weekly meetings as well.

Q Did you have any official contact with Vice-Presi-
dent Bush's staff while you were at LPD?

A No , none .

Q Do you know who briefed the Vice-President's staff
on LPD's activities, if indeed, anyone did?

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A If they did, I would assume it would be Otto, but
I don't know.

Q Did you ever meet Felix Rodriguez or Max Gomez?

A No.

Q What was John Blacken 's job as opposed to what yours
was? You were both deputies. How did you divide responsibil-
ities?

A John worked extensively on preparing publications,
which is laborious task. He also did lots of speaking. He
was also the in-house liaison. John has a very — people have
very high regard for John and, frankly, our shop was given a
lot more credibility inside the State Department once John
was there. If we had problems, especially vis-a-vis ARA or
liaison, John was the perfect person having been the director
and officer of ARA and DCM in the area, in fact, several
countries. So he was our in-house person.

Q So would it be fair if someone said —

A He is the brains of the outfit.

Q — he was Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside was Otto?

A Perfect.

Q What did Mr. Jacobowitz do in your office?

A Got me. He had a background in psychological
warfare. I 2un not really sure, he came on the scene fairly
late, and he talked to Otto about the fact Otto needed an
executive officer and became his executive officer, but I am

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not sure what he exactly did.

Q Do you know Linn Jenkins or Linn Jacobowitz?

A I met her, yes.

Q Where did you meet her? ^oi^-^ 0\''^

A I met her when she first came to Viae and Colonel
Jacobowitz introduced her to us, to people in the office and
I would meet her at TGIF's every week in our office and she
would be there.

Q Did you know she was working for Rich Miller?

A When I found out, which is way after I left, I
almost dropped my teeth. I meain I was shocked.

Q Did you feel it was inappropriate?

A I thought it was totally inappropriate.

Q Did you know she had made a presentation for the
large contract that was classified Secret to LPD on behalf of
IBC?

A I did not know that. I have heard bits and pieces
sine* that. It was not very proper.

Q When did you learn this, she worked for IBC?

A "^le last year.

Q When you learned she was working for IBC, did you
inform anyone you thought it was inappropriate?

A I thought it was — I think Otto was already in
Caracas, and I didn't know Bob Kiagan all that well, I really
didn't think it was — I should armchair quarterback --

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Q You knew Rich Miller didn't you? Did you mention
it to Rich Miller?

A It was way too late. I haven't talked to Rich in,
I don't know how long.

Q When is the last time you talked to Rich?

A A year, a year and a half, two years ago.

Q I want to ask you about a few names. We mentioned
Roy Godson earlier and you said you met him, but you didn't
really know —

A He sends his good wishes.

Q When did you talk with him?
MR. CHRISTMAS: To counsel?

THE WITNESS; Yes. Thursday morning on the 9:90
a.m. shuttle to LaGuardia.

BY MR. OLIVER: -•

Q What did you discuss with him?

A I told him I would no doubt be meeting you this
week. He said, be prepared.

Q Did he tell you what he discussed with me?

A No, he did not. He just said be prepared for
fireworks. ,_^

Q Did Bob K^agan tell you the same thing?

A I think he was a little more diplomatic.

Q Have you discussed me with anyone else that is
involved in this investigation in any way? That is a serious

.3,

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^''

question.

A No. No, I haven't.

Q Do you know Ed tVjle^?,

A I may have met him once. I know who he is

Q Do you know Terry Sleaze?

A No.

Q Do you know Faith Whittles6y?

A Yes.

Q When did you first meet Faith Whittlesey?

A I think in the 1980 ceunpaign. She was involved
in Pennsylvania.

Q Did you work closely with Faith Whittlesey when
you were at LPD?

A I was sort of engaged in shuttle diplomacy between
her office and other places. No one could work closely with
them, they considered us far too liberal. We are on correct
and cordial terms.

Q You had Operation Outreach, Cental American Outreach
ruB by Faith and Bob Riley, is that correct?

A Yes, absolutely.

Q You had ARA which also had its public affairs com
ponent, and then you had LPD, and then you had the NSC. Who
was calling the shots on this public ceunpaign for Central
America? ;

A Until Elliott Abrans came on the scene, there was

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no one, apparently no one chief, which was a source of great
frustration. There were times I began to think it represented
the Knesset.

Q Was the Central American diplomacy meeting in a
NSC sort of design to try to coordinate this?

A Yes. There were many discussions on how we could

\; lottos
best temper the news of the public liaison operation.

Q Do you know Linda Chavez?

A Yes. ,-f<^

Q How did you meet her?

A I met here when I was deputy and she replaced
Faith at the public liaison.

Q Did your relations with the Central American Out-
reach prograun improve —

■■■■■- - '■ ' )■ t\
A Yes, considerably.

Q You worked more closely — her deputy was Linas
Kojelis, is that correct?

A No, Linas didn't work on Central America. He was
th« one who handled the Central American Outreach.

Q You mentioned Ed Fox worked with you in legislative
strategy sessions? '

A Ed and I kept moving around. We knew each other ^ -
incarnations. He was with the White House and State.

Q He was involved in the legislative strategy and
the effort, legislative effort to contra aid?

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Right.

Q And worked with you and North and Fortier and —

A Before it was -BiM Ball, I guess it was Oglesby's
operation and people like Al Cranowitz, you name it.

Q How well do you know John Poindexter?

A Until I actually became a Senior Director at the
NSC, not at all. - .

Q Did you ever discuss Central American policy or
any activities related to Central America with John Poindexter?

A I don't think so. I think the closest I got was
the Grenada trip.

Q Do you know Dave Fischer?

A I became, I knew, I met Dave, I guess once I got

the White House management job.

' rClh

iif

Q And when was that?

A When did I meet him?

Q No, when did you — can you refresh my memory —

MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse me.
(conferring.)
^ THE WITNESS; I don't remember ever meeting him.

BY MR. OLIVER:
Q You got the White House management job in —
A May of 1986. ■'

Q Why did you meet him then?
A I think I met him much later because I kept seeing

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218

him in and out of the White House.

Q Did he have a White House pass?

A Z discovered later on he did, and when I discovered

it, I asked he surrender it.
^
'^'>— MR. CHRISTMAS: He made him and a gentleman named

inger <tu

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A I might have been lax in my LPD but I was "hard-
ass" in the White Rouse.

Q Were you aware Dave Fischer had been arranging
meetings with the President for individuals who contributed
to the contra cause?

A I becasM aware soaatia* last sunaer and became
alarmed. I: ''■

Q How did you become aware of it?

A Z saw him coaing out of either the outer' office,
or the Oval Offic* and asked hia questions, t(^ not hia, but
some other people .

Q And what did, who did you ask these questions of,
and nhat were the responses?

A I think Toa Dawson, Don Regan's assistant.

Q What did he say?

A Ha said ha was setting up soae briefings on Central
America. I said that is bizarre, it seems like you are dupli-
cating the efforts of other groups that already exist, and then
I saw Dave a few days later and he said, I — he said, let's

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yiKJ^tSPciRET

219

together, and he called me at one point, I called him back
and when they said IBC, I went, oh, my God.

Q And did you say then?

A I told Tom Dawson I thought we had a problem with
Dave Fischer. He was involved with IBC. At that point, I had
heard on the street Rich Millei was actively involved with
Spitz Channell and I didn't know about any of the activities,
but I felt a little queasy all of a sudden. It was just a
suspicion.

MR. OLIVER: Could we take a short three or four
minute break? I need to consult with my colleagues.

(Recess.)

UNCLASSIFiED

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MR. OLIVER: I ask the reporter to mark this as
Exhibit No. 20.

(Exhibit No. 20 was marked for identification.)
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record.
BY MR. OLIVER: m

Q Mr. Miller, I would like you to examine this docu-
ment. I ask you if you recognize this document?

A The top document I don't. Tab A. I do.

Q You have seen Tab A . ?

A Yes.

Q Before the document is titled, "Chronological Event,
Checklist", is that correct?

A Yes.

Q Could you tell us where you saw this document or
other similar documents, and tell us about these?

A I think this was coiq>iled on Ollie North's word
processor. Ollie — this is an impressive list. Unfortunate ly,
X don't think about 75 percent of the activities were under-
takan. Whether this was the security blemket or whatever to
the po«rers that be, this was to give a feeling that the U.S.
Government was working in tamdem, and that *« were doing an
aggressive thing in trying to show that we were going to get
our message out before a vote, and this was updated, I think,
every day on Fawn's word processor, by different people throw-
ing in different things that were supposed to be their respon-

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221

sibility, or in certain cases, Ollie assigning them responsi-
bility. I have to say in all candor this has no relation to
the actual activity.

Q Were you then all sent copies of this as these
things were produced?

A These were distributed in two ways, either — and
most people didn't pay any attention to them, they were too
busy doing their real job. This is primarily a good tool of
Ollie 's to show that he was in charge, as a Potemkin Village,
if you want to call it that. i\

He would circulate this as the legislative strategy
meeting held in the sit room with people like the White House
Legislative Affairs Officer, and in the Pat Buchanan 208 Group,
show that we were doing an awful lot of stuff. Frankly, as I
indicated, a lot of this was not being done, and in certain
cases, Ollie alleged that he was doing things by private
sector groups of the, for instance, on page 7, that I have no
knowledge undertaken, and frankly, this is my opinion, I ques-
tion the propriety.

Q Did you question it at the time?

A Yes, at times I told Ollie that the Anti-Lobbying
Act was being violated. I think he basically shrugged his
shoulders. He was one of those people that believed that
the ends justified the means.

Q Did you indicate to your boss that you were concern-

IMhisa

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UNCLASSIFIED

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ed about the propriety of this?

A No. Frankly, the interesting thing was that there
were peibple that were involved in daily activities with Congress
that were privy to this. I think that what was probably the
bottom line is that these activities were -en the boards, but
were never done. The track record, for instzuice, of Citizens
for America was fairly abysmal.

Q Let me HMVt ask you about a couple of the entries
on here. On the first page of the Chronlogical Event Checklist,
it says, "Send resource book on the Contadora process to Congress
men, media outlets, private organizations and individuals inter-
ested in Nicaragua." It says, "State LPD^ (Miller Juaows) ",
which I assume it was you.

A Yes. .■

Q Or it could be Richard Miller.

A No, it is me.

Q Did you do this?

A I am sure, portions. This was a book prepared in-
hoiM*.

Q Down a little further, the next to the last para-
graph, "Encourage U.S. media reporters to meet individual FDN
fighters" etcetera, and then, "the responsibility is NSC author-
ity and State LPD Gomez." Is that Framk Gomez?

A Yes.

Q Did he do this?

UNCUSSIEIECL

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223

A I think he did.

Q When you indicated that on the last page there were
private groups involved, wasn't Frank Gomez a private citizen?

A Frank Gomez was working as a consultant to the
State Department, and —

Q Excuse me. He was an independent contractor. Was
he paid as an individual consultant or was he under contract
under the IBC contract?

A He was under the IBC contract as a partner in IBC.
Yes, I understand.

Q There is a difference.

A Yes.

Q Being an independent contractor and consultant.

A You are right.

Q So basically he was a private citizen?

A No. We are not going to split legal hairs, but he
worked for the Office of Public Diplomacy in that activity.

Q Did he have a security clearance?

A My understanding was that he did.

Q Do you know how he got that security clearance?

A No, I don't. He had been a Deputy Assistant Secre-
tary of State and it is fairly easy for consultants and con-
tractors, for former Foreign Service officers to get it.

Q I am not sure whether that is the case or not, but
my understanding of security clearances is that when you leave

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224

the employment upon which your security clearance is based, and
as you know all security clearances are based on a need-to-know,
that your security clearance automatically terminates, and
that it could only be renewed at the request of someone, and
it has to be updated and you have to go through the paperwork
again, and my question to you is do you know whether or not
LPO ever processed the paperwork or caused in any way Frank
Gomez to obtain a security clearance?

A I cannot tell you that I personally knew.

Q Do you know whether or not he had access to classi-
fied documents?

A I can't say he did or he didn't.

Q Did he have a State Department pass?

A I think he had a pass that allowed him admittance
in the building, but it was not a traditional State Department
pass. There were passes issued for consultants, or the con-
tractors or whatever, but he did not have a State Department
employee's pass.

Q He had a pass that allowed him to come in the build-
ing unescorted?

A I can't tell you whether it was unescorted or not,
but he did have some semblance of a pass that the security
office issues.

Q You indicated earlier that he was the one who you
really worked with, much more than Richard Miller.

UMdhasA

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225

Right.

Q You were the COTR on these contracts, and having

worked in the State Department —

A There is a special — '

Q You know that there are security procedures, and
that if someone does not have a pass, he is not allowed to

travel in that building without an escort. ;• ''

A Well no, that is not true. You can wear a visitor's

badge.

Q Yes.

A He had a pass that was issued by the security office,
but it was not for a Department of State employee, that has
been issued to other consultants, contractors, anything else
you want to call it, and the security office clears on this.

Q It is your testimony you do not recall him having
access? ■'-*' '■'- ""■ ' ■' ' ■' ;> -r-

A I cannot one way or the other.

Q Or you have no knowledge of him having access to
classified documents?

A I cannot state it one way or the other.

Q On the next page, on the second paragraph, it says,
"Provide 'State* H. with a list of Nicaraguan emigrees and
Freedom Fighters to serve as potential witnesses to testify
before hearings on aid to Nicaraguan Freedom Fighters". Then
it has, NSC North, State ARA Michael, State Reich. Do you know

UMfifeASfiinfOT

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226

whether that was done? -- _ --

A I thinJc it was, but I can't say with 100 percent
certainty. This was a snapshot. This thing was updated every
day, and lots of things fell off and lots of things were put
on, and lots of things were flogs in people's minds.

Q You were working with the Legislative Strategy
Group. Do you recall the names of any Nlcaraguan emigrees or
Freedom Fighters who testified before hearings on aid to
the contras? -i .,,

A No, I don't think they actually testified before
hearings. I think actually used then to pay courtesy calls
on Members . , , ,, . ... , - . -;♦!.. . i . r >

Q And who arranged those courtesy calls?

A They were arranged, X think, through H.

Q Do you know Father Thomas Cowling?

A Yes, I have met hia.

Q How did you meet him?

A Z can't remember how. '^

Q ffhat was your relationship with him? How did you
know him? What did you talk about? When did you see him,
etcetera? »>•, --r'^ ,-, y,.,- >> x^.

A Z met him once or twice, or maybe three times, and
he is a very presentable sort of person. Since X read about
him in the press, Z am astounded but Z don't know who his
mentor was, and I can't remember who introduced us to him.

yMcyssici^

843

mkfssmk

227

Q Where did you see him?

A I saw him, I think, at the State Department, and
maybe once at the Old Executive Office Building after I left
the State Department.

Q Did you know of his relationship with Oliver North?

A I knew that they knew each other , but I don ' t know
what the gist of that relationship was.

Q Do you know, did you have any knowledge in 1985 of
Father Dowling testifying before Mike Barnes' Subcommittee on
Western Hemisphere Affairs?

A I remember there were discussions. I don't actually
remember him testifying, but I knew there was discussion that
he was going to, but I wasn't involved.

Q What discussion do you remember?

A I just remember I think somebody saying that Dowling
was going to go up. I don't remember who it was, whether it
was Ed or whether it was Ron Sable or whether it was Al Crano-
witz, or whether it was Ollie North.

■ ' ' Q Was it somebody in that meeting that said that
Father Dowling was going to go testify?

A Somebody, someplace, I don't know. There were so
many meetings that I went to and I know the name ceune up, and
I met him a few times.

Q Do you remember whether it was Oliver North who told
you he was going to go up and testify?

UnlKJn OtSKSaKuHEin

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228

A I cem't tell you one way or the other."
Q Do you think it was Ed Fox who told you?
A Z can't tell you. It could be and it can't be.
Q Did you have any discussion with anyone after he had

testified about his testimony? •
A I don't recall any.

Did you ever know that he had, indeed, testified?

I can't say with certainty whether I knew or didn't.

Did you believe hin to be a Roman Catholic priest?

I sure did at the time. He pride ourselves on integ-

le ourseive

rity, and if we had a bogus person, I would have trotted him

out . ^ .

Q But you can't remember who trotted him out?

A I could speculate, but I don't want to. I have
already been punraeled by my attorney. , .^ sf/v-i

Q I don't w«mt you to speculate, and neither does Mr.
Buck. . ^j... ,

In the middle of that page it has, "Supervise preparation
an&^ aasignment of articles directed to special interest groups
at the rate of one per week beginning March 18" so on, example,
"'State' LPD". Did State LPD do that?

A I think we did to a certain extent. I don't think
we did anything for the National Education Association, but I
think there were things prepared for specific audiences, yes.

Q A little further down it has, "National Press Club

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news conference for FDN commanders Bermv^ez, Mike Lima, etcet-
era, follow on Congressional visits State-LPD" and "Gomez
Kuykendall." ,,.,.., ,, ^ :■.

A That is where it gets pretty murky. I don't know
whether they did it or not. It should be two separate lines,
but I won't dispute that that was at least suggested.

Q Why was Kuykendall listed under State-LPD?

A He shouldn't have been. I wasn't the author of
this document, and I think the editing was done by Fawn.

Q I understand, but you saw this document.

A Yes, I did, and there were times we cleaned it up,
and there is no way of telling that I didn't object to this
and say we have got a slip here and then the next day you got
a snapshot from one certain day. The next day you may have a
different one.

Q I think we have a lot of snapshots. We are just
using this.

A I understand that, but I am just telling you when
it rolled off the press every day, I didn't say, hey, we have
got a problem here. I did clean up a lot of mistakes.

Q The next to the last paragraph, do you recall that
incident, "Martha Murillo visit to Washington"?

A I remember the discussion but I don't remember her
herself. I don't think she ever say the First Lady.

Q Did State-LPD handle here visit? Did Frank Gomez

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230

handle her visit?

A I cannot tell you with any certainty.

Q Do you remember whether Kuykendall was involved?

A No.

Q Let's go over the next page, about mid-way it says,
"State-LPD and White House media relations prepare a list of
key media outlets" etcetera;- NSC North, State-LPD Miller.
Did you do that?

A It was done in our offices, yes.

Q A little further down the page it has, "Call-visit
newpaper editorial boards and give chem background on the
Nicaraguan Freedom Fighters." "State-LPD Reich". Did Otto
do that?

A I don't know if he did, but we did provide back-
ground. In some of the cases it was just a paper. There was
a charge being made. For instance, I remember preparing a
paper, that a good deal of the contras were former Sandinistas,
emd we had prepared a paper to show that a great deal of the
background %rare people that were not involved in Somoza's
National Guard. And I think this was a paper that was to be
distributed, not an actual visit. I think this is the way
it finally took place.

Q There is another mention on that page about OAS.
Do you remember whether or not that occurred?

A I think Middendorf did it, possibly with Mendez.

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Q Did you all have anything to do with it?

A No, I don't )mcw why we were down there.

Q On the next page it has, "Joachim Maitre- Congres-
sional meetings, speeches, and Op-Ed pieces, State-LPD, Kuyken-
dall". What was that all about?

A That was, frankly, not handled by us and we shouldn't
have put it down. If I remember correctly, Joachim Maitre —

I cim not sure, was from either Nicaragua or Costa Rica and the

i b

Gulf and Cartibean Council handled him. I think he was a
A

Nicaraguan emigree who was living in Costa Rica.

Q Are you sure he wasn't European?

A You may be correct. I can't remember. There are
so many names, but I remember Frank Gomez brought up Joachim
Maitre 's name. I thought it was to be handled by the Gulf and
Carribean Council which we weren't involved in. Dan Kuykendall
and I did not exchange instructions.

Q "Review and restate themes based on results of pub-
lic opinion poll State-LPD Reich." What public opinion poll
wer« you talking about?

A I can't remember. We were constantly looking at
Harris and Gallarp and Wall Street Journal and everything else,
and seeing where we were, and we also, I think, looked at some

pollc,

private White House •poliey, where we were constantly getting
beaten up in the American public opinion, and we were trying
to address those things.

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Q There is another mention of State-LPD at the bottom
of the page. Did that occur?

A Yes, it did. All it was was an English translation
of what happened by the Sandinistas to La Prensa.

Q The top of the next page, State-LPD is mentioned
again with Kuylcendall and Gomez in relation to Vallardo
Antonio Santeliz. Were there Congressional meetings with
that person?

A I remember at some point we did bring some Pentecos-
tal ministers. Whether that specific cleric came up at that
time is beyond me. In most cases, things were going too fast
and too furious, amd as I said, if we did 25 percent of this,
we were doing a good job.

Q But so far you have done all these things except
this. You are not sure about this?

A We did it at some point. Whether we did it at that
specific time, we did not have —

Q Let's move along here. Petro Juaquin Chamorro
sp«aking tour, did you all do that?

A I don't think we did.

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UNCLASSIFIED

Q The next thing — then there is a meeting with the
President to meet in Room 450 with "Spirit of Freedom Concerned
Citizens for Democracy" from eight countries.

A I don't think it ever took place.

Q The next is release of a DOD-State paper on Soviet-
Cuban-Nicaraguan intentions in the Carribean. Did you all do
that?

A Yes. ;

Q The next thing is a Bernard Nietschmann paper. Did
you all do that.

A Nietschmann did do it. I don't know whether we dis-
tributed it at that time. I know that he had a paper, but I
can't remember if it was distributed.

Q The next thing indicates that the responsibility is
the Republican Study Committee. Did they do this?

A I think Farach was put in touch with them. What
they did beyond that, I don't know, I don't mean that to
malign the gentleman. I think Dan Fisk wac at the Republican
Study Committee at the time, and I think that he was doing
this, but I cannot tell you whether for certain they did or

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did not.

Q How did the Republican Study Committee get on this?

A It beats me.

Q On this list?

A I don't know.

Q But did —

A Although I frankly don't think there is anything
wrong with us talking to Congressional staffers.

Q Was Antonio Farach one of your — was he being
handled by one of your consultants?

A At one time did handle him. I don't know whether
he was at this point.

Q The next time you are mentioned is release paper on
Nlcaraguan media mcmipulation. Did you do that?

A I know it was kicked around in draft. I cannot
tell you whether we actually did get it out. I don't think
we did, as a matter of fact.

Q And what about the next item, "Nicaragua's develop
ment as a Marxist-Leninist state"?

A I think it died on the operating table

0 The nq^t thing was declassify Nicaragua's development

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as a Marxist-Leninist state by Linn Jacobowitz Poulsen for
publication as State Department document, request clearance
with Casey, State-LPD Blacken. What does that refer to?

A I can't tell you.

Q Do you know whether it was done?

A No.

Q Did you ever hear of this publication?

A Yes, I did, but I don't know whether it was ever
circulated or not.

Q Who is Linn Jacobowitz Poulsen?

A Apparently, it is Colonel Jacobowitz' sister, I
would assume.

0 Do you know why you %rould need a clearance request
with Casey for something written by Linn Jacobowitz who was
working for one of your contractors?

A I am not sure at that point whether she was or she
wasn't. It may have been with regard to the actual clarifica-
tion of Nicaragua's development as a Marxist state. If you
la«P at these two, it looks like there was some very — it is
very uncertain, but it could be that Casey had some problems,
not Casey, but the agency had some real problems and Ollie
said, that is okay, I will go to Bill Casey.

Q Let me ask you a question that occurred to me as I
look at this. This is written a long time before Linn Jacobo-
witz came to work for IBC. I J5«liftl».,abfi^came to work for IBC

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in September of 1985. What was she doing?
A I don't know.

Do you know why she was writing classified documents?
No, I don't.

CIA?

Do you know whether she had any connection with the

A If she did that is news to me. I am totally baffled
by this. I don't know who made the assignments.

Q The next page there is another State-LPD, responsi-
bility Blacken. Do you knew whether that was done?

A Probably, but I can't say with 100 percent certainty

Q And the next one, do you remember?

A I do not think it was done.

Q Down toward the bottom of the page there is something
called. Publishing an updated Green Book-distribute personally
to Congressmen, media outlets, private organizations, and
individuals interested in Nicaragua. Pass to Lew Lerman and
otter interested groups State-LPD, Reich. Do you remember
%i4^HI|«r that was done?

A 1 think it was. I camnot remember exactly where the
Green Book was but I think it was on Nicaraguan arms build up.
It was one of the most popular publications the office ever did

Q Did you distribute the paper on geopolitical condi-
tions of communist domination of Nicaragua?

A I don't think it was a very good paper and I don't

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think it ever got off the ground.

Q Did you release a paper on Nicaragua drug involve-
fflent?

A No, we could not — the people that were pushing the
idea. Senator Kerry ,j^faa will be happy to know, we couldn't
corroborate. We felt it was a weak paper, so we didn't send
it out.

Q On page 8, skip the next page, we have already talk-
ed about, that was the one you felt it was inappropriate for
those people to be on there, there was Nicaraguan Refugee
Friends Dinner, State-LPD, Miller, Raymond. Vfhat does that
mean in terms of your responsibility?

A As I say, my job was to make sure that since I was
the one volunteered that I was ■<|ua»A about the people that
were undertaking this, but to make sure-that was-we got the
President to agree to give the speech tnat at least I monitored
it, so that it wasn't going to be some embarrassing situation,
and frankly, Z continued to be concerned to the night of the

0 Did you work with Walt Raymond on much of this?

A I would give him my thoughts. I think Walt was
given, unfortunately, responsibility that he never had.

Q Why wouldn't he have responsibility, or why wouldn't
it be North there?

A I don't know. Sometimes these things done arbitrar-

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238

ily. Walt didn't even attend either one of these meetings.
I don't even know why.

Q Didn't attend either one of which meetings?

A The people of the — the people that received this,
either the legislative group the 208 Pat Buchanan group. Ollie
occasionally would make it look like there were other people
that he was sharing the responsibilities.

^- *' Q Do you know whether or not this document found its
way into the private files of people outside of the government?

A I don't know. -'^J J^ ^^

Q Do you know whether or not LP^ provided a copy of
this to Richard Miller or Frank Gomez? ^ t^ ,

A I would be very surprised if we did. .i

Q You have no knowledge of this document being provid-
ed?

A No. I would be speculating if they got it where
they got it.

Q A couple of pages later, "major rally in the Orange
B«(fli^, did you all do something about that?

A It never made it. It would have been a great event
too. .^^' •'('.•.••;>. ■■ - . .; .•, , . •. V -• .^

Q Now we have got the Nicaraguan Refugee Fund Dinner
a couple of pages later, the same thing. Down at the bottom
of that page — well, this is a difficult document actually.
This is public diplomacy presidential events regarding Nicarag-

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uan resistance. Possible presidential visit with former
Central American president, foreign ministers, and presidential
candidates. Did that ever get off the ground?

A Where are we?

Q The next to the last paragraph.

A No.

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BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Have you ever seen this ad at the end of this thing
before?

A I did at some point.

MR. CHRISTMAS: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
BY MR. OLIVER:
Q Why would you have seen it before? What do you
remember about it?

A I just remember somebody taking credit for it.
I, frankly don't think it is that great an ad. I just remembei
someone taking credit for it, and I can't tell you who it was

Q Let's go back to the first page for just a moment.
This was a document you indicated you had not seen before.
Did you meet with Pat Buchanan's ad hoc working group?
A Oh, yes.

Q Who else was in there besides you and Pat Buchanan?
A Somebody from Public Liaison, somebody from White

T Legislative.
Q Do you remember the names by any chance?
A Occasionally Al Cranowitz would be there,
occasionally Pam Turner would be there from Legislative
Affairs, occasionally Ed Fox, occasionally Jim Michel,
sometimes Dick Holwill. It was one of those things they
held to make everybody feel they were part of the operation.

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It was a fairly large group and not very effective.

Q Any private citizens participate?

A No, not that I jun aware of.

Q Anyone from the CIA participate?

A No. That would have beer totally inappropriate.
They don't feel comfortable in that sort of thing.

Q I thought you had indicated earlier they did
participate? • i ^ ; . ,

A No, they participated in the — I thought you were
talking about the 208 Group.

Q You are going to have to distinguish these for me.

A The 208 group, which was the common name for the
Pat Buchanan outreach group, had no agency participation.
We have gone over the legislative group, Don Fortier,
Sable, Al Cranowitz,^^^^^^^^^H Jim Michel.

Q That was the legislative group.

A Yes. Some of those people would show up at the
208 Group, the Pat Buchanan Group, but on the whole, the Pat

lan Group was much bigger and did not include agency
}le.

Q In this memorandum, Oliver North refers to a
decision to be taken no later than noon, Friday, March 22,
if we are to proceed with the events on the check list and
those activities would support a vote the end of April. Do
you recall having been informed a decision was being taken

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242

could go forward with these activities?
~h No. This was another Oliver North hyperbole.
Q He indicates you should be aware Director Casey
has sent a personal note to Don Regan on the timing matter.
Do you have any knowledge as to whether or not Director
Casey was involved in any way in the timing matter?

A No, I don't. You will have to ask Bob ^np^T
MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions.
THE WITNESS: I can't believe it.
MR. OLIVER: I appreciate your patience and your
good humor. I appreciate it very much. But that doesn't
mean these guys don't have some questions.

MR. FRYMAN: I have no questions, Mr. Miller.
BY MR. BUCK:
Q My name is Ken Buck, and I do have a few questions
for you.

Your name was mentioned several times during the

«■•, and I want to talk to you about a few of those
B«s. Did you have an opportunity to see Secretary of
Shultz testify?
A Yea, I did.

Q Did you hear his testimony concerning an airplane
that he desired?

A Yes, I did.

MR. OLIVER: For the record, I want you to know we

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w«nt over this while we were waiting for you and started
IMtar the afternoon session. You can ask again if he doesn't
object .

MR. CHRISTMAS: I don't Object. !i ^
BY MR. BUCK: - ' ' 5

Q Would you recount for my benefit what happened?

A I was, frankly, leaving Don Regan's office. I
was enjoying listening to his testimony. I was agreeing on
certain points, I had an appointment to make, and I heard him
talk about fighting in the White House and gem warfare. The
next thing I heard was my name. The neict thing I heard, I
went into cardiac arrest. I was very surprised to hear my
name mentioned. And although I tried to be charitable the
next day in the Washington Post, I frankly was a little amazed

Q Could you tell me eUC>out the events, surrounding
circumstances with what Secretary Shultz was talking about?

A Well, there was no doubt that there is, whether -
during any administration there is constant tension between
Ity Ceuneil and the State Department, and

ire additional examples of people that were upset with
the Secretary of State at the White House, and he seemed to
think that his having to pay for his ticket, the State
Department having to p&y for his aircraft on trips was an
example, and apparently that is why he went in and offered
his resignation to the President.

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Q Do you remember the specific trip he was talking
about? * '; ,

A No. He never gave an exeunple. - »

Q Do you know if it involved a golf trip to Augusta,
Georgia? i

MR. OLIVER: Object. I don't know what the
relevancy of that is. It is highly speculative. And I don't
think it is appropriate.

THE WITNESS: No, the Secretary did not seek on
his Augusta trip to have the White House pay for it. There
were sometimes in which the Secretary did undertake personal
activities in which the State Department would pay out of
its budget for Air Force jets. That was well known.
g.-, ,,. MR. CHRISTMAS: Off the record.

^ MR. OLIVER: On the record now. .
^. ,^, THE WITNESS: I was always concerned with what I
thought was misuse of government aircraft. As I indicated
earlier to Mr. Oliver, I on occasion would suggest to Mr.
Regan and Secretary Baker they could.use the aircraft as
well. I would never make the decision myself. I was
amazed the Secretary decided to resign over that matter and
not matters of principle. That is his choice.

Q Do you remember the Secretary of State's comments
concerning you during his testimony? ,. -, '

A I became that character that you have heard -- he

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h«a.b««n here before. And it was especially Xtuchiag since
trorking for two years, the reason my nane came Cp was
two years I was tforking in the Secretary's Bureau at the
State Department. I, frankly, thought it was a cheap shot
and beneath the Secretary.

Q Mas there anything else during the hearings you
felt needed any explanation?

A Nell, there were a couple —
Q Concerning you personally.

A Hell, I Biean, off the record, everybody is en-
titled to a little bit of Easter after Good Friday. There
were a number of occasions my name came up where people
were misinformed. Fatm Hall indicated I irarked for Rich
Miller, and Z still contend to this day I didn't work with
Rich Miller. She said Rich Miller and Spitz Channell, and
I have never ever worked with Spitz Channell.

There were other occasions that came up, but it is
not %«orth worrying about.
J^^^K NX. BUCXt Z have no further questions.
'^I^H^ THB WITNESS: Thank you.

MR. OLIVER: Thank you very much, Mr. Miller.
This deposition is adjourned.

(Nhereupon, at 6:10 p.m., the select coonDittee
wa s ad j ourned . )

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BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY

3 9999 06313 397 7

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