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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

Y l.l/2:Serial 13759 

United States Congressional.., 



Government 
Documents 




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n. 1 i?< »1 fl rot'fi 



100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 







AUG2S13SO 



IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 18 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13759 



United States Government Printing Office 
Washington : 1989 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 

Appendix B: Volume 18 
Depositions 



Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987. -Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



Bnlttd States 3enatt 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorable John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available. 



Sincerely, 




Warren B. Rudman 
Vice Chairman 



III 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON. DC 20615 

(202) 225-7902 

March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U. S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr . Speaker : 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433, lOOth Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified fop-vrelease to the public. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



V 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking RepubUcan 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courter, New Jersey 

Bill McCollum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Kerr 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence/Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Flynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Ray nor 
Joseph D. 

Small wood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard Cullen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V. Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

III 
Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hobron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Traylor 
Bobby E. Pope 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courter 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Dornan 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 18 



Preface XXI 

Meese, Edwin III 1 

Melton, Richard H 255 

Merchant, Brian T 327 

Meo, Philip H 408 

Miller. Arthur J 462 

Miller, Henry S 568 

Miller, Johnathan 616 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Volume 3 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Harnett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady. Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Carl R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke. George. 

Clarridge. Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin. Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig R 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC". 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Volume 10 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Rudd). 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn, John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., Jr. 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Lei want, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IIL 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 15 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhorne A. 
Mulligan, David P. 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., II. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 19 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 

Royer, Larry. 

Rudd, Glenn A. 

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney). 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert L. 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IIL 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 24 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

Tull, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., IIL 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses — or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence — were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 



1 

/sflL .-Vd.'^ die Mj-'-Cltt ' 
/ Uc^crlMd uid (. Mditcd 
/ Not for Qw>Uti&i> or 

EPOi'LTION OF ZIj\V.^\ .'Itr-Sf , lil 



ednesday, July 8, 1937 

.S. House of Representatives, 

elect Committee to Investigate Covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
ashington, D.C. 



Cosninittee Hearings 

oftlw 

U^ HOU&B OF REPRESENTATIVES 






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Oy^rn! OP TUB CLK^C 



UNCU^^'^ 



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DEPOSITION OF EDWIN MEESE , III 

Wednesday, July 8, 1987 

U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 

The Conunittee met, pursuant to call, at 9:35 a.m., 
in Room 5111, Department of Justice, with Pamela J. Naughton 
(Staff Counsel of House Select Committee) presiding. 

O ~lf of the House Select Committee: Pamela J. 
Naughton, . 'J. Leon, emd Robert w. Genzman. 

On behalf «. Senate Select Committee: Thomas C. 
Polgar and tf^. Thomas McGough. 

On behalf of the witness: John R. Bolton and 
Steve A. Matthews, Department of Justice. 



UfJAO^^^if^a 



MS. NAUGHTON: Can we go on the record, please? 

We are on the record. My name is Pamela j. Naughton 
Staff Counsel to the House Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran. 

I would aslc the people to introduce themselves. 

MR. LEON: Richard J. Leon, Deputy Chief Minority 
Counsel for the House Iran Committee. 

MR. GENZMAN: Robert W. Genzman, Associate Minority 
Counsel for the House Committee. 

MR. pOLGAR: Thomas C. Polgar with Senator Rudman's 
office. 

MR. McGOUGH: w. Thomas McGough, Jr., Associate 
General Counsel to the Senate Select Committee. 

MR. MATTHEWS: Steve A. Matthews, Deputy Assistant 
Attorney General. 

MR. BOLTON: John Bolton, Assistant Attorney General 
for Legislative Affairs. 

- ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Edwin Meese, III, 
deponent . 

MS. NAUGHTON: General Meese, are you represented 
by counsel today in your personal capacity? 

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Yes. I asked Mr. Bolton 
and Mr. Matthews to be here as my representatives. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Do you waive any conflicts they might 
have either as witnesses or as representatives of the Department 



ma^'^tMT 



of Justice? 

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Yes. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Do you waive attorney-client 
privilege in terms of what they might or -- or do you want 
this deposition to be confidential in terms of attorney- 
client privilege? 

MR. BOLTON: What do you mean by that exactly? 

MS. NAUGHTON: What I mean is — 

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: A deposition by its nature 

is not confidential. I don't think there is any basis to waive 
} 

attorney-client privilege. That would only be waived as to 
matters that are extraneous to the deposition. 

MS. NAUGHTON: All right. Fine. 

Finally, I don't know if it has been explained to 
you, but in terms of the deposition itself, you will be 
given a chance to review the deposition. 

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: Right. 

MS. NAUGHTON: The committee will provide you a 
copy. However, that cannot b« copied or disseminated to 
anyone else. It must be returned to the c^nonittee after your 
public testimony. ' 

Do you have any questions on the procedure? 

ATTORNEY GENERAL MEESE: No. It is agreeable. 



Whereupon, 

EDWIN MEESE, III 
having been called as a witness herein, was duly sworn, 
and was examined and testified as follows: 

MR. BOLTON: I want to put on the record we went 
on the record about 9:40 by my watch. 

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q When did you become Attorney General? 

A On the 25th of February, 1985. 

Q And prior to that, your position? 

A I was the Counsellor to the President. 

Q From what years? 

A I was Counsellor to the President from, I believe, 
the 21st — either the 20th or 21st of January, 1981. 

Q General Meese, can you tell us your prosecution 
experience in Alameda County? 

A Yes. I was in the District Attorney's Office, 
Alameda County, from October 1958 through the middle of 
January of 1967. During that time, I was a law clerk until I 
passed the bar. From about the 7th of January or thereabouts 
in 1959, I was a Deputy District Attorney. 

Q Did you specialize in any particular type of case? 

A I handled all types of criminal offenses under 
California law. I was the principal Deputy District Attorney 



mfi\ a^m:^^ 



0R0E¥ISS3^;SBT 



1 handling the special investigations and grand ]ury cases for a 

2 portion of that time, three or four years. I also was a 

3 legislative representative before the California Legislature 

4 on -- representing the District Attorneys and Peace Officers 

5 of California, specializing in all aspects of criminal law, 

6 criminal procedure. 

7 Q Other than assuming your post as Attorney General, 

8 have you had any Federal criminal law enforcement experience? 

9 A Not as a Federal officer, no. I have had other 

10 criminal experience. I was the Vice-Chairman of the 

11 Organized Crime Control Commission in California from about 

12 1977 or 1978, I think 1977, through 1979 or 1980, during the 

13 pendency of that Commission. And, of course, I have had 

14 other experience as a professor of law and director of a 

15 criminal justice center. 

16 Q While you were at the White House as Counsellor to 

17 the President, did you have any interaction with Oliver North? 

18 A Yes, in the sense that I saw him on occasion in the 

19 White House and in the Executive Office Building and in the 

20 White House complex generally. 

21 I would see him from time to time, pass him on the 

22 street. I believe sat in on some meetings where he may have 

23 been present and probably had some conversations with him at 

24 other times, either in my office or otherwise. I have no 

25 specific recollection of a particular conversation, but I 



tIiltil>^^I^T 



did see him from time to time as I saw other members of the 
National Security staff. 

Q Do you know on what areas you may have 
interacted with him? 

A I don't have any specific recollections now. He 
was doing a number of things in what is generally called 
military political operations, I think was the part of the 
National Security Council staff he was involved in. 

Q But do you recall what his accounts were? 

A I dcjn ' t remember particularly. I think he was 
involved in Central America while I was there and -- but in a 
whole variety of things, I think he also represented them in 
other matters, perhaps continuity of Government matters. 
Generally, they were things that had to do with the 
relationship between military activities and national security 
affairs. 

Q Were you ever present with Mr. North at any meetings 
with the President? | 

A I cannot recall a specific meeting where he was 
present with the President, but it is entirely possible that 
there may have been some times when he was there as a 
staffer. 

In National Security Council meetings and National 
Security Planning Group meetings, there were often members of 
the NSC staff seated around the edges of the room and I can't 



SiiNCUlS.^iWFn 



UNCMS££€^T 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

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recall specifically whether Oliver North was one of those; 
but my general recollection is that he may have been present 
on one or more meetings. 

Q During your time at the White House, what, if any, 
opinion did you have about Oliver North? 

A Well, I would say that my opinion was that he was a 
hard working, dedicated Marine Corps officer. 

Q Did you ever know him to disobey orders or go beyond 
orders or do anything that wasn't -- 

A Nbt to my knowledge. 

Q Did you ever discuss Colonel North with the President 
prior to, let's say, November of 1986? 

A Not that I can recall. I don't have any 
recollection of discussing him with the President, no. 

Q So you don't know what opinion the President may have 
held about Oliver North prior to November of 1986; is that 
correct? 

A 1 don't have — I don't recall that I ever heard 
anything or had any discussions that would lead me to have 
an opinion, no. 

Q I want to ask you a couple of questions about the 

22 records that you provided. We had, you know, phone logs, 

23 calendars and so forth. And I assume these were kept 
contemporaneously? - , 

25 A Yes, to the best of my knowledge. 



Q But would they be complete? 

In other words, would every call in your office or 
sent from your office be on the telephone log? 

A Not necessarily. I think we tried to keep them as 
much as possible, and I believe they are relatively complete. 
My secretary tried to record most calls, either that came in 
through the normal system, through the front office here, 
or that came directly to her; but it is possible that there 
may have been calls for one reason or the other that may not 
have been incliided there. 

For the most part, we tried to keep it complete. 

Q Does she place all of your calls? 

A Yes. Normally she would place all of my calls. 
There may be an occasion that I would place a call myself if 
she wasn't at the desk or -- or if I, for example, was calling 
my wife or something. 

It is possible, but I didn't do that very frequently. 
Most of the time she would place all of my calls. 

Q Of the calendars that we received, we received 
some typewritten ones. 

A Yes. 

Q Do you in addition to that keep your own personal 
handwritten calendar? 

A No, not really. I occasionally keep notes on what 
I am doing, but not systematically. Certainly I don't keep 



10 



aroBASficBiT 



notes on a detailed, hour-by-hour basis personally. i do 
keep generally where I am on a given day. 

Q I guess my inquiry is more like those calendar 
books on a desk that some people keep. Do you have -- 

A I have one of those books, but I don't use that to 
record hour-by-hour activities. 

Q Going to those records, if you can recall -- and I 
have copies — on June 19, 1985, there was a call from 
Judge Webster on the secure line that says "hot line" on your 
notes, and thep from Oliver North on a secure line, and then thn 
White House Operations — the message reads, "For R.R.--" 
— whom I assume is Ronald Reagan — " -- and reach 
Stan Marcus", who at the time may have been the U.S. Attorney 
in Florida. 

If you need to refresh your recollection — I 
wasn't planning on putting it in as an exhibit. 

A These would be phone calls on the 19th of June. 
What year is this? 

Q 1985. 

A 1985? 

Q Do you recall what that was about? 

A No. 

Oh. The only thing I can think of is here where it 
says "White House operator for R.R. trying to reach 
Stan Marcus, gave Florida number, referred to signal". 



11 



I think that what that means probably is that the 
President was trying to reach Stan Marcus. It may have been 
that the President was trying to reach Stan Marcus to tell 
him he wanted to appoint him a judge. 

Mr. Marcus, who was then the U.S. Attorney, became 
a judge. And I would assume that I may have been in Florida 
that day. I am not sure, because it says Judge Webster on the 
hot line gave the Florida number. 

This is in the handwriting of the lady who was then 
my secretary,' Marilee Melvin, I think. "Oliver North on 
secure line gave Florida number." 

I don't know if either of them reached me if I was 
in Florida. 

Q Okay. On October 2nd, 1985, there is a similar 
message, "received call from R.R. — " -- it looks to be 
at 11:10. Later on at 10:30, "received call from Mike Ledeen.' 

I ask you if you could refresh your recollection 
with that and tell us if you can recall what happened on 
October 2nd, 1985? 

A I cannot — this does not refresh my recollection 
about anything that I remember. I can probably give you a 
speculation. It says, "received call from R.R. at 11:10, 
incomplete. " 

It says, "called Kulia and Seibert with the message.' 
Dick Kulia was ray security officer on that day. 



12 



17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



11 



1 Sargeant Seibert is my driver. It says, "told 

2 White House operator E.M. would call in five minutes. E.M. 

3 called back from the Departmental Auditorium." 

4 I believe on the 2nd of October, 1985, I was probably 

5 at the Departmental Auditorium in connection with the 

6 Interpol conference. 

7 That is my guess. That was in October 1985. That is 

8 the only time I remember going to the Departmental Auditorium 

9 around then. 

■JO Then it says, "10:30, received a call from 

•J1 Mike Ledeen, also incomplete." 

12 Apparently, it was regarding — it says something, 

13 it looks like "Heritol" or something. I am not sure. 
I am not sure what the rest is. "Counterterrorisra. " 

15 And then it gives a number or a White House number which 
15 appears to be an executive — or a Signal Corps switchboard 

number. I don't know what it was. I have a vague recollection 

that about that time I think maybe Mike Ledeen brought 

someone in from Israel because it says — this looks like it 

may be Israeli — yes. Israeli. Something "Israeli 

re counterterrorism." I have a vague recollection there was a 

fellow from Israel who visited me who was a counterterrorism 

specialist. 

It may have something to do with that. 
Q Your calendar reflects several visits with 



13 



12 



1 Mr. Ledeen in the time period of 1985 and 1986. Can you tell 

2 us what you discussed with him? 

3 A I don't think "several visits". It may be a few 

4 visits. I don't remember very many. I don't know how many 

5 there have been. 

6 I can remember him coming in once or twice on 

7 counterterrorism matters, discussing them with me, and there 

8 was one other matter, one other time when he came in that I 

9 remember in which he -- it was right around the time that the 

10 public information had come to light about the Iranian • 

11 initiative and on that occasion he told me, I think, that that 

12 it was still possible to pursue the Iranian initiative and 

13 that was kind of in passing, and then we talked about a couple 

14 of other items, one of which I think was counterterrorism. 

15 He was always interested in doing things on counterterrorism. 

16 I think we have a notebook entry to that effect as to what 

17 we talked about and the date. 

18 Mr. Matthews is getting it for me now. I can tell 

19 you specifically what it was. 

20 Q Was this after the story broke? 

21 A Yes, I believe it was. 

22 Q The date was November 14, if that would refresh 

23 your recollection. 

24 A Okay . 

25 Q Prior to that meeting with Mr. Ledeen, did you know 



14 



1 Mr. Ledeen was involved in the Iranian initiative? 

2 A I don't know whether I did or not. I don't know 

3 whether I did or not know that prior to that time. i don't 

4 remember whether it was discussed at all in January of 1986 

5 at the meetings that I attended. It is possible that I knew 

6 about it, although I don't have a recollection that I did. 

7 Yes, I have the notation that he talked about Iran. 

8 Then I think there were two other matters that he talked with 

9 me about, but I don't remember what they were. 

10 Q J^hen he talked to you about Iran, on the 14th., 

11 do you recall being surprised that he was involved in it? 

12 In other words, were you hearing that for the first 

13 time or had you been aware that he was involved in the Iran 

14 initiative? 

15 A I don't know whether I had know of that at all. As 
1g I say, I can't remember whether he was mentioned in January 

17 of 1986 which was the period of time at which I was told about 

18 the Iranian initiative, and here he says -- I had made the 

19 note, "Mike claims to have worked with McFarlane in 1985." 

20 It may be that I was hearing it for the first time. 

21 He said, "Can still work with the original Iranian group with 

22 which he initiated original contacts, Ghorbanifar, et al." 

23 Then it says "channel one". ■ 

24 He may have been telling me that for the first time. 

25 I just can't remember whether I knew that or not. I did 



ySlfiLflSSli^ 



15 



14 

/Cnow he was a consultant to the NSC. 

Q In August and September of 1985, and again in 
November of 1985, the Israelis shipped first TOW missiles and 
then Hawk missiles to Iran. During that period of time, that 
is, any time in 1985, were you aware of those shipments? 

A I have no recollection of being aware of it, no. 

Q When is the first time you learned of those 1985 
shipments? 

A To the best of my recollection, the first time I 
heard of an^ shipments in 1985 was after this became 
public generally in November of 1986. 

Q Do you recall from whom you heard about those 
shipments? 

A I think the first knowledge I have -- and I don't 
have a distinct recollection of this, but it is my understandin 
the first knowledge I had was from Charles Cooper in the 
Office of Legal Counsel who had been looking into the 
legal aspects of this matter after the story broke in early 
November 1986. 

Q Do you know from whom Mr. Cooper heard about the 
shipments? 

A I didn't know at that time and I have since learned 
that he apparently learned about them from Mr. Thompson of 
the NSC staff and perhaps others on the NSC staff. ^ I don't 
know specifically whom. 



16 



16 



24 
25 



iitS^SB(^£BT 



1 Q Mr. Cooper testified publicly that he first learned 

2 of the 1985 shipments when he received a chronology on 

3 November 17 from the NSC. 

4 Would that comport with your recollection? 

5 A Well, I don't know. I don't think -- i have no 

6 recollection of seeing the chronology myself, but that is 

7 certainly consistent with him then telling me at some time 

8 about that time that there had been arms shipments in 1985. 
g I don't think we had time to go into many details. The 

■JO first time* that I recall receiving any detailed information 

11 about it was on the 20th of November in Mr. Poindexter's 

12 office. 

13 Q When do you recall first examining or first seeing 

14 any chronology? 

15 A The first I recall seeing a chronology was in 
Mr. Poindexter's office on the afternoon of the 20th of 

17 November. 

^g Q The committee has heard testimony from 

19 Stanley Sporkin and others that a finding was drafted 

2Q regarding the Hawk shipment in November of 1985. 

A Yes. 

Q Had you been aware of that finding at the time. 



23 let's say, in November "or "December of 1985? 



A I don't recall ever having any information or 
learning of that finding at that time, no. 



li 



17 



Q So Judge Sporkin never discussed this finding with 
you? 

A -. Not that I recall. 

Q General Meese, do you, as a routine, normally 
see every finding that is drafted? 

A We have tried to track that down because I 
wouldn't know about a finding unless it was, in fact, 
presented to me. And we have received findings over the last 
two or two-and-a-half years maybe on^^^^^^^^^^Hoccasions, 
and so I don'j: know whether I have received all findings or not 
It is not necessarily something that comes to us on all 
occasions. 

That is really at the decision of the NSC staff as 
to whether findings are presented here for review. 

Q Are there any findings that you reviewed that did 
not go through Mary Lawton's office? 

In other words, through the regular procedures at the 
Department of Justice? 

A One finding was the finding that was prepared for 
the President during early January of 1986, and so far as I 
know, I was the only one in the Justice Department who was 
involved in the review of that finding. 

Q Was that the January 17 finding? 

A I believe it was ultimately signed on the 17th of 
January, yes. 



18 



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Q And -- 

A Now, there was also conversation about a matter that 
probably would have involved a finding, I understand. I 
don't have a specific recollection, but Mr. North -- 
Colonel North did discuss with Mr. Jensen, then my Deputy, 
and myself, I am advised by my notes and by others, on or 
about the 6th of January, there was a discussion about the 
Iranian initiative, about an Iranian initiative. 

I don't know whether that involved a finding being 
presented 'to us at that time or whether it was merely a' 
memorandum, but there was a document that was presented to 
us at that time. 

Q When was that? 

A That was the 6th of January. I do not have a 
specific recollection of that, but I have been informed by 
others that that, in fact — by Mr. Jensen that that took 
place. 

Q Have you spoken — has anyone else refreshed your 
recollection on the January 6th incident other than 
Mr. Jensen? 

A Yes. My staff has shown me an entry in the 
calendar for that day here in the office that there was a 
meeting with Mr. North at 3:45, I believe it was, of that day. 

Q If we cam take it back, I want to get into that, 
but we sort of skipped some ground here. 



19 



18 



1 Of the November 1985 finding, do you recall when "ou 

2 first learned of it? 

3 A The first I learned of a 1985 finding was either on 

4 or after the 20th of November, 1986. It is possible it may 

5 have been discussed -- although I don't have a specific 

6 recollection, in my presence on the 20th, in the afternoon, 

7 at Mr. Poindexter's office. 

8 I am sure it was discussed with me in a meeting that 

9 I had with Mr. Sporkin on Saturday, the 22nd of November, 1986. 

10 Q Nbw, earlier, I asked you if there were any findings 

11 that you had seen that had not gone through the regular 

12 Department of Justice procedures. You mentioned the 

13 January 17 finding. 

14 Were there any others? 

15 Have there been any others? 

15 A Well, the one in November of — the finding you 

■J7 referred to that had been apparently prepared in November of 

18 1985 by Mr. Sporkin, which I later learned about, to the best 

19 of my knowledge, that did not go through the Department of 

20 Justice and I don't even know whether that was ever 

21 presented to the President. 

22 As far as other findings during the time that I 

23 have been Attorney General, there may have been other findings 

24 presented to the President which did not go through the 

25 Department of Justice. 



20 



19 

1 I don't know specifically of anywhere that occurred 

2 but it is entirely possible. 

3 Q All right. So aside from the Iran initiative 

4 findings, then your testimony is that you have not seen any 

5 findings that did not go through regular Department of 

6 Justice procedures? 

7 A Not that I can recall. 

8 Q Did you ever ask the President at any time whether or 

9 not he signed the November 1985 finding? 

10 A No. I have not asked him. 

11 Q Do you know whether he did? 

12 A I do not know. 

13 Q Prior then to January 6 of 1986, were you aware at 

14 all of the Iranian initiative? 

15 In other words, that negotiations had commenced 
15 with elements of the Iranian Government and that we were 

17 contemplating missile shipments or had discussed weapons 

18 shipments of any type? 

^9 A Not to the best of my recollection. 

20 Q Now, you say you first becaune aware then on 

21 January 6th of 1986? 

22 . A I don't have a distinct recollection of becoming 

23 aware on that day, but I believe that I did. I have a 

24 distinct recollection of becoming aware on the 7th of January. 

25 Q Can you tell us what you know or can recollect about 



21 



'GfraiSS£;Jim' 



20 



1 the 6th? 

2 A Well, on the 6th, I know from records that I had a 

3 meeti-ng with Colonel North, that is reflected on my calendar 

4 that a meeting was set up. I know from talking with 

5 Mr. Jensen, my Deputy, that he and I attended a meeting with 

6 Colonel North in which Colonel North had some sort of a 

7 document which described in general terms the Iranian 

8 initiative, that we reviewed that. 

9 This is — I learned this from Mr. Jensen. I don't 

10 have a spe(^ific recollection of it and that is about all' I 

11 know. 

12 Q Did Judge Jensen discuss this with you after we 

13 interviewed him in San Francisco? 

14 A Yes. I called him to refresh my own recollection 

15 of that and I have talked with him about it, yes. That is — 
15 what I have related to you is what he has told me. As I 

17 say, I have no specific recollection myself. 

18 Q Now, when Oliver North ceune on the 6th and presented 

19 this piece of paper — and you were not — correct me if I am 

20 incorrect, I gather you are not sure if it was a finding or 

21 simply a memorandum. 

22 A That is right. 

23 Q But did it describe the Iran initiative? That is, 

24 the various goals of the initiative, including weapons, 

25 possible weapons transfers? 



22 



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A I don't recall because I don't recall anything 
specifically about the document. 

Q I guess what I am curious about is if this is the 
first you learned of it, wouldn't it have caught your 
attention that we were dealing with Iran and wouldn't it 
have, you know, sparked some questions? 

A I think probably the reason I can't recall more 
specifically is that whatever I may have learned on that day 
was eclipsed with the more complete knowledge I gained the 
following day, the 7th, which is much more distinct in my 
memory where we went through this for a period of almost an 
hour in the President's office. 

Q Well, in the 6th, did you have any knowledge that 
Oliver North was going to come to your office? 

A Well, yes. He had called, I think, to arrange a 
meeting at 3:45. 

Q Did you know what that was to be about? 

A I don't know. I have no recollection that I knew 
until he arrived. 

Q Do you recall any conversations with Colonel North 
when he was there in your office on the 6th? 

A No. I don't have any recollection of the 
conversation. 

Q Do you have any recollection of the conversation 
with Judge Jensen after Colonel North left? 



23 



22 



1 A I don't have any recollection at this point, no. 

2 Q When Colonel North showed you the document, was it 

3 signed by anyone? 

4 A I can't recall the document, so I couldn't tell you 

5 whether it was signed by anyone or not. 

6 Q I have here a document marked N-1323, which is our 

7 document number. It is a -- I believe a six-page document. 

8 May I have ]ust a moment? 

9 I am going to see if this refreshes your 

10 recollectibn. General Meese. 

11 MR. LEON: General, it is a memorandum with a 

12 proposed finding at the end that is dated January 6 and is 

13 signed by the President. The memorandum is undated, as you 

14 probably can see. 

15 THE WITNESS: This does not refresh my recollection 

16 at all. I just — this doesn't refresh my recollection at 

17 all on that. 

18 And I have no recollection at all of this specific 

19 document. 

20 MR. LEON: If I could. General, on the last page of 

21 the finding, I believe — if you would take a look at that, 

22 on that copy, there is some handwriting in the text of it. 

23 Does that handwriting look familiar to you in any way? 

24 THE WITNESS: No. I don't know whose handwriting 

25 that is. 



24 



U|^tAggl5^T 



23 



1 MR. LEON: It is not yours; is it. General? 

2 THE WITNESS: It is not mine. I can assure you 

3 of that. That is the only thing I can be sure of. 

4 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

5 Q Showing you document N-1248, and specifically 

6 referring to N-1249, it is dated January 4, 1986. Does that 

7 refresh your recollection? 

8 A No. This does not refresh my recollection. 

9 Q Turning then to the January 7th meeting, do you 

10 recall was this a meeting specifically designed to discuss 

11 this issue or was it an ad hoc situation? 

12 A It appeared to me to be an ad hoc meeting. There 

13 was a NSC meeting of some sort that I believe was held in the 

14 Situation Room, but I am not absolutely positive, and after 

15 that meeting, I was asked to join others in the Oval Office 

16 with the President at which time the Iranian initiative was 

17 discussed. 

18 Th« others present, to the best of my recollection, 

19 included the President, the Vice President, George Shultz, 

20 John Poindexter, Bill Casey, Don Regan, Cap Weinberger, and 

21 myself. 

22 It is possible that there may have been one other 

23 person there, an assistant of John Poindexter ' s, but I can't 

24 recall for sure. ~ ' * " ~ , 

25 Q Did you take notes of this meeting? 



25 



- _ 24 

1 A No, I don't believe that I did. 

2 Q Did anyone there that you notice take notes? 

3 A Not that I remember. 

4 Q And can you recall who sort of did most of the 

5 talking at the meeting and explaining what was going on? 
5 A Yes. Let me just — 

7 MR. MATTHEWS: Tab 2. 

8 THE WITNESS: Tab 2. Here we are. 

g I am just refreshing my recollection here. 

10 1y recollection is that the persons that did most of 

11 the talking were John Poindexter and Bill Casey. I believe 

12 that John Poindexter raised it but Bill Casey also talked about 

13 it. 

14 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

15 Q General Meese, you are refreshing your recollection 
1g with what document? 

tj A I am refreshing this from a synopsis of my 

Ig testimony before the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 

ig and the House of Representative's Select Committee on 

2Q Intelligence. 

21 Q This was prepared by your staff? 

22 A Right. 

23 Q What did Admiral Poindexter say at the meeting that 

24 y°^ ^^^ recall? 

MS ■ A My recollection was that he outlined a variety of 



26 



T 



25 



'' goals. One was to establish contact with a more -- a moderate 

2 a more moderate element within the Iranian Government, to be 

3 able to influence events at a time when the Khomeini was 

* no longer in control of that government, to bring an end to 

5 the Iranian — to the Iran-Iraq war, to lessen the 

6 participation of Iran in state-sponsored terrorism, and to 

7 obtain our hostages, to seek the help of these moderate 

8 elements in obtaining the release of our hostages being 

9 held in Lebanon. 

^0 This was also set in the background of the danger to 

H the Middle East from the Soviet Union operating through or 

12 perhaps actually utilizing in some way Iran. 
''3 Q Was it discussed that weapons were shipped to 

14 Iran by Israel? 

15 A Yes. To the best of my recollection, it is that the 

16 moderate Iranian elements wanted a show of good faith by the 

17 United States and that this could be represented by our 

18 providing a small quantity of weapons that could be used by 

19 the Iranian military and that they, in turn, would show their 

20 good faith by trying to use their efforts to help obtain the 

21 release of our hostages. 

22 Q What were your thoughts when you were hearing that 

23 perhaps weapons would be shipped to Iran for this purpose? 

24 A Well, I think my thoughts and the general discussion 

25 was that this was a high-risk type of thing, but that the 



27 



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^QSI^^I^T 



26 



quantity of weapons would be relatively small and this was 
necessary In order to achieve the objectives of this 
particular initiative. 

Q At this meeting, did anyone raise the issue of the 
Arms Export Control Act? 

A I eun not sure. I don't have a specific recollection, 

but it is entirely possible and I believe, but I am not 

absolutely positive, I believe that this was discussed in the 

context of a prior opinion that had been rendered by my 

predecessor, Willi2ua French Smith, indicating that it was 

possible for the President to transfer arms under the 

National Security Act, rather than the Arms Export Control 

Act, and I am almost positive that there was reference to that 

I 
memorandum and to this being an appropriate way of transferring 

arms for the President. 

Q Did Director Casey make that comment? 

A I think it was Director Casey that talked — that 
discussed that, yes. And I had a recollection of the — 
Bill Smith opinion, because I had been on the National 
Security Council when that opinion had been rendered in 1981 
or 1982. 

Q By the way, the National Secuirty Council subgroup 
that — the NSPG on which you sit, do they review all findings? 

A I don't believe so, no. I think some findings are 
reviewed there, but I don't believe all of them. 



MNCLfl4filE,T2 



28 



27 



1 Q Again, is that up to the NSC as to whether -- 

2 A I think it is the NSC staff and perhaps the 

3 Director of Central Intelligence as to what findings go through 

4 that — the NSC or the NSPG. 

5 Q Now, did Secretary Weinberger express any hesitancy 

6 or question about the legal issues involved in arms transfers? 

7 A I don't recall — I don't recall specifically 

8 Mr. Weinberger raising issues about the legal aspects of it, 

9 although it is possible that he did, and that may have been 

10 what triggered Director Casey's mention of the National- 

11 Security Act as being the vehicle. 

12 Q Now, did anyone at that meeting mention the 

13 prior 1985 shipments by Israel to Iran? 

14 A Not to my recollection, no. 

15 Q Did Director Casey mention that the CIA had been 
1g involved with the transportation of the weapons in November 

17 of 1985? 

18 A Not that I recall. 

19 Q When is the first that you learned of that? 

20 A The first I learned of that, the CIA being 

21 involved in any transportation of weapons, to the best of 

22 ^y recollection, is in the meeting in John Poindexter's 

23 office on the 20th of November, 1986. 

24 Q When you learned of that, did you discuss that with 

25 Director Casey? 



29 



m^ 



28 




A Well, at that time I didn't discuss it in a 
separate discussion with him. Various people were 
contributing to a chronology what they remembered of having 
taken place at that time. 

Q But at some point — I am not so concerned with 

6 the time, but at some point did you asic Director Casey about 

7 that involvement and if there was a finding and if he had done 

8 it legally and properly? 

9 A At some point, I learned — whether it was from 

10 Mr. Casey Or Mr. Sporkin. My recollection now is that the 

11 discussion generally went — and I don't know whether 

12 Bill Casey was present, but it had to do, I think, with 

13 Bill Casey not being in the country at the time this all 

14 took place in November of 1985, and that the CIA — CIA's — 

15 the initial information I received was that the CIA's only 

16 participation was to ask for a — one of their proprietary 

17 airlines to transport a cargo for Israel to Iran. And then 

18 there was subsequent information about how much was known by 

19 the pilots involved and by CIA people as to what the actual 

20 contents of the cargo were. 

21 The initial information we got was that it was 

22 oil drilling parts. We later learned that it was — or 

23 it was indicated that they were Hawk missiles or Hawk missile 

24 parts and then more information was released and th^re was a 

25 considerable <Iuestroi^ng av^ Jf'itfJtpCt^ people knew at what 



»msr!jr°"* 



30 



yROEnSIMBT 



29 

1 time. 

2 Q Well, did you at any time ask Director Casey if, 

3 indeed, he knew in November of 1985, let's say from the 

4 22nd through the 25th, that he knew that there were Hawk 

5 missiles aboard the aircraft? 

6 A I don't remember ever asking Director Casey that, no. 

7 Q Do you recall him ever telling you that? 

8 A I don't recall him ever telling me that, no. My 

9 impression is that he did not know at the time and that he was 

10 away, but I am not absolutely positive of that. 

11 Q Do you know whether or not the President knew at 

12 any time from November 18 through the 25th that there were 

13 Hawk missiles being sent to Iran? 

14 A I do not know. 

15 Q Have you ever asked hira? 

15 A I don't believe I have discussed that specifically 

17 with the President. At least I don't recall discussing 

18 it with the President. 

19 Q Did anyone tell you that they had told the 

20 President that? 

21 A Not that I can recall, no. 

22 Q Now, was there a discussion on January 7th regarding 

23 the preparation of a finding for this initiative? 

24 A I believe there was a discussion about the 

25 preparation of a finding, yes, and that a finding was necessary 



31 



'yHanS^l^iCET 



30 



and that a finding would be prepared. 

Q But was there a discussion of a document you had 
seen the day before from Colonel North? 

A I am not sure that the document the day before was 
a finding, and I don't believe I saw any specific document 
myself on the 7th. 

Q Well, I guess — 

A I don't recall seeing it. 

Q On the 7th, was a discussion about a finding, a 
prospective one, that is, a finding should be drafted or that 
one had been drafted and was simply awaiting signature or 
something? 

A Well, there was a discussion edDOut a finding, and I 
remember that the following week, I participated in the 
specific drafting of a finding. Or at least in the specific 
review of a finding that had been drafted actually by, I 
think, Stanley Sporkin. 

Q Did Stanley Sporkin mention to you that one had 
been drafted before, either in November of 1985 or in — on 
Jamuary 6th , on or about January 6th? 

A Not that I recall, until I discussed this with him 
in November of 1986. 

Q The draft from which you were working then, I 
gather from the period of maybe January 14th through the 17th 
with Judge Sporkin, were there many changes made in the draft 



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he presented to you? 

A No. I read the draft, to the best of my recollection. 
I don't know that there were any changes made and most of our 
attention was really drawn to reading and reviewing the 
National Security Act in relation to that finding and more 
specifically to the aspect of the notification of Congress 
and there was a provision in the draft finding that we 
looked at that said that Congress would not be notified under 
501, I believe, is the section of the National Security 
Act, until ordered by the President. 

Q I want to get back to that, but by this time had 
Secretary Weinberger checked his legal people on the issue of 
the Arms Export Control Act? Was there some discussion of 
that? 

A I believe that he had, because I believe -- I think 
that I recall Secretary Weinberger being present at 
John Poindexter's office at some point where this was 
discussed. 

Q And what did he say? 

A And I don't have a distinct or specific 
recollection of the discussion, but my general recollection 
is that he was satisfied that it could be done legally 
through the National Security Act. 

Q Had he seen the Smith opinion? 

- f 

A I don't know whether he had seen it or not, but 



(aMm iiccijrir!^ 



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I believe he knew of it and I believe actually he was in the 
National Security Council meeting when Bill Smith had 
discussed this opinion some years before. 

Q General Meese, had you been aware of the 1985 
shipments — in other words, had someone at the January 7th 
meeting or subsequent meetings told you about them, and then 
discussed with you the issue of retroactivity or that there 
had been prior activity by the CIA, what would your advice 
have been? 

A ^ell, I don't know. That is a hypothetical question. 

Q Let me ask it this way then. What is your opinion 
of the viability of retroactivity, that is, a finding making 
prior covert activities retroactive? 

A Well, I would say that a finding after the fact of 
something having been done by the President would be of 
questionabl* legality and would certainly raise questions. 
You would have to look at all the facts of a particular 
situation, but it would certainly raise questions as to the 
legality because the law says that something can be done by 
an Intelligence agency — and we are assuming now this 
was an intelligence agency that Is involved — something 
can be done if the President makes a finding that it is in the 
interests of national security. 

I believe that is the way the law reads. So that 
such a finding, it seems to me, would be a condition 



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precedent to the activity going forward. Now, that is a very 
general statement of the law. 

Obviously that would be — could be modified by a 
particular set of circumstances. 

Q Did you ever discuss that question of retroactivity 
with Judge Sporkin, either at the time or subsequently? 

A Not in detail or as to legality. We discussed it 
only in terms of Judge Sporkin telling me in the meeting that 
I had with him on the 23rd or 22nd — the 22nd of November 
that he hai prepared a finding in November in which he had 
written it in a way that it would cover any activities of the 
CIA that might have taken place during the period 
immediately preceeding that. >; 

Q You mentioned intelligence activity by an intelligenc i 
agency, regarding the National Security Act and Hughes-Ryan. 
Is it your opinion then that the NSC is or is not an 
intelligenc* agency? 

A I have not researched that specifically. It would 
be my opinion that the NSC staff — certainly the NSC is not 
an intelligence agency. 

It is my opinion the NSC staff would not be 
considered an intelligence agency within the general meaning 

of that term. 

Q If the staff were engaged in intelligence activities 

would thei 



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MR. MATTHEWS: Before we go too much further 
along this line, I want to clarify to what extent we are going 
to be" going into legal questions as opposed to factual 
research? 

Obviously, a lot of this stuff, we have 
provided opinions done by the Department of Justice on these 
issues and the Attorney General may not have been -- personally 
may not have looked at them. j 

These are off-the-cuff responses. 

rkz WITNESS: Abstract. 

MR. MATTHEWS: That doesn't really represent 

i : ; 

legal opinions. 

MS. NAUGHTON: These are basically many of the 
questions that were asked you at the Senate Intelligence 
sessions. I am trying to cover the ground on the record for 
our committees. 

THE WITNESS: I don't recall these questions being 
asked, but they may have been. 
BY MS . NAUGHTON : 
Q At any rate, I will re-ask ray question. If 
National Security Council staff members are involved in 
covert activities of an intelligence nature, would their 
actions require a finding? 

A That would depend upon a lot of circximstances that 
in your question are hypothetical. I am not sure I can answer 



ONCIUSSSE^ 



36 



itt^^£!i&T 



35 

1 that specifically. I would say preliminarily that activities 

2 of members of the National Security Staff probably would 

3 not require a finding, that that would be the general 

4 principle of law. 

5 If, on the other hand, for example, they were 

6 detailed to the CIA, which is an intelligence agency, then it 

7 is possible a finding might be required. But it is hard to 

8 answer hypothetical questions on something that is 

9 rather specific as far as the law is concerned. 

10 Q Alien you looked at the proposed finding by Judge 

11 Sporkin, you stated you reviewed the National Security Act 

12 regarding — 

13 A We are talking now about when? The 16th of 

14 January approximately? 

15 Q Around that time. 

18 Can you recall if you did any other research on 
17 these questions? 

13 A My b«st recollection is that I looked at the 

19 National Security Act, read that very carefully, may have 

20 looked at the citations appended to it, but I can't 

21 remember specifically, and on that basis, agreed with Judge 

22 Sporkin that delay in the notification of Congress was 

23 appropriate for a limited period of time. 

24 Q That is the only issue then that you focused any 

25 research on; is that correct? 



37 



36 

A Yes. I was already familiar with the Bill Smith 
opinion, having gone through that discussion some years 
earlier. 

Q Did you involve anyone else from the Department of 
Justice at this point? 

A Not that I can recall, no. 

Q Why was Judge Jensen present for the — at that time 
Deputy Attorney General Jensen present on the 6th when 
Oliver North brought that document? 

A Vfell, because I had asked him to attend the meeting. 
Normally, when we had anything that was coming over from the 
National Security Council, I would have generally Judge 
Jensen, then Deputy Attorney General Jensen or some other 
member of the Department here so that if there was action that 
needed to be taken on that item, they would follow up on the 
action. 

And I didn't know — I don't believe I knew what 
Mr. North was coming over to talk about. 

Q Did Judge Jensen have any other involvement in the 
Iran initiative other than that one meeting? 

A Not to the best of my knowledge. 

Q So when you were reviewing the legal issues 
surrounding the January 17 finding, you didn't go to OLC or 
any other people in the Department of Justice to research 
those issues; is that correct? 



Lyacu&sLtrja- 



uai^a^s^T 



37 



« A Mine was not an in-depth review. It was more of a 

2 concurrence with the legal analysis done by — that had been 

3 done by General Counsel Sporkin and in answer specifically 

4 to your question, no, I did not go — I do not recall going 

5 to anyone else. 

g This was such a highly sensitive matter that it was 

7 my belief at the time that no one else in the Government 
A outside of that very limited number who had participated in 
g the meeting, both the President's meeting and the 
subsequent meeting, should be involved. 

Q Why was it determined to delay notification to 



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•J2 Congress? 



A The President was very concerned, as was 
Admiral Poindexter and Director Casey of the obvious, 
intense danger to our hostages and also to the members of the 
Iranian Government who were involved in this initiative. 

I remember specifically — I remember generally that 
there was discussion, I believe, on the 7th about delaying 
notification of Congress until our hostages were returned 
and there was a concern to notify Congress as quickly as 
possible thereafter. 

I remember generally there was discussion about we 
would notify Congress as soon as they were on our airplanes 
and out of Lebanon. Or out of wherever we were getting them. 
Q Was there any discussion at that time of delaying 

UflCLASSIF^f> 



39 



38 



notification because of possible political ramifications? 

A No. I have no recollection of any such discussion. 
The only recollection I have was that there was concern for the 
safety, primarily, of the hostages and also, to some extent, 
I believe, of the moderate members of the Iranian Government 
with whom these discussions were being held, or the contacts 
were being made. •. .• ,-..«..- 

Q Are there any other findings of which you are 
aware that congressional notification was either delayed or 
eliminated? ^ : 

A Not that I know of or that I can recall in this 
Administration. I believe there were findings of that sort in 
the prior Administration. 

Q Are there any other findings of which you are aware 
other than the November 1985 finding that make prior actions 
retroactive? 

A I don't know of any finding in 1985 that made prior 
actions retroactive. I know one was drafted, but I don't 
know if such a finding was ever made. I know of no findings 
signed by the President at any time that made prior 
actions retroactive — made the finding retroactive to 
prior actions. , - 

Q Were there any drafted that he didn't sign? 

A I don't know of any that were drafted other than what 
I heard Mr. Sporkin talking about relating to activities he 



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was involved in in November of 1985 or thereabouts. 

Q Is it your understanding for the record that the 
Smith letter indicates that or does direct that Congress be 
notified of that particular transaction? 

A I would have to look at that to be sure, but I 
believe that in that particular instance that notification of 
Congress was contemplated in that — in the particular 
finding he was referring to. 

Q What was your understanding of how long this 
initiative' would last in terms of the wBapons and the return of 
the hostages? 

A My best recollection is that I thought that this woulil 
take place within 30 to 60 days because it appeared to be 
something that was imminent and that would be accomplished 
within a relatively short period of time. 

Q Obviously, after 60 days had passed, not all of the 
hostages were released. Was it ever discussed then by anyone 
in the Administration that perhaps Congress should now be 
notified? 

A Not that I know of because I don't believe I 
participated in any further discussions of this matter 
particularly as to the aspects of notification of Congress 
at any time until after it was publicly revealed in November 

of 1986. - , 

Q Do you happen to know why after a reasonable amount 



^f...- 



)u happen to know why after a ] 

j |IELASSlFgLD__ 



UttCLAS^Si^r 



40 



of time, the 60 days, or the 90 days, why Congress was not 
notified? 

A No. I do not. And to be very clear, the notificatic 
was to occur as soon as the hostages were returned and I -- 
the impression I received was that that would occur within 
30 to 60 days after the meeting in January of 1986. 

Q One minor point, again. From your calendar, it 
indicates a message on July 11, 1986, where Secretary Shultz 
requests you meet with himself and Judge Sofaer and Mr. Hill 
regarding a matter discussed at a Cabinet meeting. 

There is no reference to it. Without dwelling on 
it in the documents and so forth, do you recall what that 
meeting was about? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Now, on October — around October 5th or so, the 
C-123 carrying Eugene Hasenfus was shot down. 

A What Is the date? 

Q Around October 5th. 

A Yes. _ ,,,-• 

Q Was shot down. When did you hear about the 
shoot-down? t ' 

A I don't have any recollection. I probably read 
it in the paper or saw — I don't usually watch television, 
so I doubt if I saw it on television. Probably read about it 
in the paper at or about that time when it was publicly 



»Mft| RQQK^rry 



42 



ilitetASiitl^T 



41 



1 revealed. 

2 Q So you have no recollection of anyone in the 

3 Administration calling you to tell you this had happened? 

4 A Not that I recall. 

5 Q Once you fovind out that it had happened, did you 

6 do anything about it? 

7 A Not that I recall, no. 

8 Q Did you direct the FBI or Customs or any other agency 

9 to investigate the matter? 

10 A tlo. I have no recollection of doing that. I- 

11 can't imagine why I would. 

12 Q When did you first become aware of — let's start 

13 first with the Customs investigation of Southern Air 

14 Transport and the issue of the C-12 3 and so forth. 

15 A I an not sure whether I became aware of a 

18 Customs investigation, or if I did, it was probably only in 

17 connection with — X believe I became aware of it when 

18 Admiral Poindexter called me in regard to an investigation that 

19 the FBI had and I believe Customs was mentioned at the same 

20 time. 

21 I think he told me there was a Customs investigation 

22 and asked me to talk to Secretary Baker about that 

23 investigation. 

24 Q Did you talk to Secretary Baker? 

25 A I mentioned it to Secretary Baker at a Cabinet 



MWCJLASSiEEEL 



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meeting, I believe, or at some meeting in the White House and 
said I wanted to talk to him further about it, and then for 
some reason, that was eclipsed by other events. I don't 
believe we talked about it any further. 

Q When you discussed it, first of all, was he aware 
of the investigation? 

A I don't remember whether he was or not. It was a 
very brief discussion with him. 

Can you tell us what the discussion was? what did 
you say? 'what did he say? ^ \ 

A I can't recall the specific discussion. Z believe 
it was to the effect that the National Security Council's 
staff would like us to delay an investigation of which 
Customs also had a part or had an investigation going for a 
brief period of time. 

But I am not even sure how much of that I actually 
discussed with him. I wanted to talk to him about this when we 
had more tlma. 

Q So at that time you didn't specifically request a 
delay, but simply to speak at another time. 

A I think we indicated — I indicated that we — 
that I wanted to discuss this with him and for some 
reason we were interrupted. Maybe the start of the meeting 
or something else. , 

Q Did he give you any indication that he would see 



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that it was delayed for a period of time? 

A I don't think we got to that point in the discussion 
I think it was a matter that was to be continued at a 
later time. 

Q You can't recall what it was? 

A I believe — I don't believe that there was any 
further conversation with him on the subject. I have been 
told by others that other contacts were made and that this 
matter was taken care of as far as Customs was concerned by 
persons otAer than myself. 

Q Do you know who these persons were? 

A I think Mr. Trott was involved in it, but I am not 
positive. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North made any calls? 

A I don't know for sure whether he did or not. I 
don't recall at least knowing that — whether ha did or not. 
It is possible. 

Q Did Colonel North talk to you about this investigatio 

A Ha may have. I don't have a spacific recollection. 
It is possible that ha did. I do know that it was 
Admiral Poindaxter who made a call to me on the subject. I 
do recall that conversation. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



m 



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Q Did Admiral Poindexter, when he called, explain 
to you that the investigation that had been done by the FBI 
might reveal an Iran initiative which had not yet been 
completed, in which Southern Air Transport was involved? 

A I don't recall that. The impression that I got, 
that I do recall, was more to the effect that people who 
were involved in Southern Air Transport were needed for 
something to do with the Iranian initiative or the hostages, 
and that that is why a delay in the FBI — the FBI either 
wanted to interview some people or wanted to get some 
records. That is my impression; and that a delay was 
needed because the people who were involved were needed 
for something at that time relating to the Iranian initiative. 
That is my recollection of the impression I got out of the 
conversation. I don't recall the exact words. 

Q Then from the period of time of, let's say, Januarv 
20, 1986, until mid October, when you heard from Admiral 
Poindexter, did you discuss, or hear of, or seek communication 
regarding the Iranian initiative? 

A There was one other instance that was some time 
during the summer, when the Criminal Division had a case, 
or where there was a criminal case involving an accusation 
of arms smuggling to Iran, and I received from someone 
in the department, I believe it was Steve Trott, but it may 
not have been, it may have been Bill Weld, a request to find 



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45 
out — apparently there was some claim being made that 

this was authorized by the United States Government, a claim, 

I might say, that was directly made in regard to these kinds 

of cases. And so I, as a precaution, checked with John 

Poindexter to be sure that this case that we had had no 

relationship to the Iranian initiative. Was advised 

by Poindexter that it did not. And reported that back, not in 

regard to the Iranian initiative, but reported back that I 

had checked with the NSC staff and that there was no 

authorization by the United States Government that involved 

this particular investigation. 

Q Do you recall the name of the case? 

A I don't recall the naune, no. 

Q Was it an indicted case? 

A I don't recall whether it was indicted or just an 
investigation at that time. 

Q Do you recall from what district it emanated? 

A My best recollection, I believe, is that it came 
fron New York. I think the Southern District of New York, 
or the Eastern District of New York. I am not sure. I 
think it was a New York case. 

Q Was this the Evans case? 

A I have heard it referred to since that time as 
the Evans case. I don't believe I knew the name of the 



case at that time. 



ONCLASSIFED 



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' Q Do you recall, was Assistant Attorney General Weld 
involved in bringing these messages back and forth? 

A It is possible. I dor.'t recall specifically 
now who it was, but I think it may have been Mr. Weld. 
It would normally come through that channel. 

Q Do you know whether or not there was any 
declaration or affidavit or anything prepared for the 
government to attest to as proof to the court that the 
government wasn't involved? 

A J I don't recall that notice, but it is entirely 
possible. 

Q Moving then along to around about October 17, 
1986, the majority members of the House Judiciary Committee 
wrote to request an i.iquiry to lead to an appointment of an 
independent counsel regarding the crash of the C-123 and any 
activity on the part of any government officials in supplying 
the Nicaraguan Resistance. 

You were aware of that request, were you not? 

A Yes. I believe I received a copy of that request 
and it was directed, if I remember correctly, to the 
Criminal Division. 

Q And in that request, it names Admiral Poindexter, 
Oliver North, Director Casey, Vice President Bush, and others 
as possible subjects for this pre-inquiry? 

A I believe that is correct. I don't recall 



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Q But this request by the House Judiciary Committee 
came to your attention when it was made; didn't it? 

A My best recollection — and I would have 
to check the document — is that it was a request from a 
subcommittee of the House Judiciary Committee headed by 
Mr. Conyers. That is my best recollection. Let's check the 
document. 

Q Well, there were a couple of letters. I will with- 
draw that question in the interest of time. Regardless 
of who made the request, you were aware at the time it was 
made that it had been made; is that correct? 

A We get a request. You know, we get these requests 
fairly frequently. 

Q Sure. 

A But I was aware that a request had been made. These 
usually aire directed to the Criminal Division and so I 
usually see them in passing. 

1 do see a letter dated the 17th of October, 
li86, that is signed by Mr. Conyers, and it is only — 
it says that a majority representating the Democratic 
Members of the House Committee on the Judiciary. I guess 
the reason that I thought it was a subcommittee is it 
was signed by Mr. Conyers rather than the committee chairman. 

Q And was this — did you refer this matter to the 
Public Integrity Section? 



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A I don't know whether it went in the Criminal 
Division. The letter itself would normally go directly to 
the Criminal Division. I would not specifically refer it 
It would be done by the Executive Secretariat. We could 
find out how that was done, if you need to. I would not 
handle it myself. 

Q But you were aware that it had come in? 
A I would get an information copy of the letter. 
Then the action copy would be referred, in all probability, 
to the Criminal Division. 

Q And did you get any urgent reports or daily 
reports on the progress that the people in the Criminal 
Division had made on the investigation? 

A I may have. I don't recall them now. My 
memory is being refreshed here by — or at least I am being 
shown a document dated the 14th of November, 1986, which is 
a — what appears to be a progress report on the independent 
counsel request by members of the House Committee on the 
Judiciary regarding aid to Nicaraguan rebels. It is a 
memorandxim to me from Willisun Weld, I have a general 
recollection of having received this. 

Q Could I ask. you — I know that we have not 
received a copy of that. 

A I ajti sure you have. 

MR. MATTHEWS: I think so. 

copy of it. 



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You are certainly welcome 

MS. NAUGHTON: Some time during the break, if you 
could copy it? 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Did you discuss this particular inquiry with 
anyone at the NSC or the white House? 



would. 



Not to my recollection, no. And I doubt if I 



Did you ever discuss it with Director Casey? 



Not that I recall. 



Do you know whether or not anyone at the Department 
of Justice believed anyone at the White House or the NSC 
regarding this inquiry? 

A I do not know whether they did or not. 

Q Did the NSC or anyone at the White House request 
any briefing on the status of this inquiry? 

A Not that I can recall. 

Q Now, during the period in the fall of 1985, and 
a couple of times — once in '85 and, I believe, three times 
in '86,' 




I don't recall whether they were relatefl to the 



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Iranian initiati 




I would not have known any relationship, to the best of „y 
recollection, to any Iranian initiative, because i don't 
recall knowing of any Iranian i: 




Q Do you recall receiving any conununications from 
either Admiral Poindexter or Colonel North regarding! 





A I don't recall now that I received any such 
comrounicatlona . 

Q Did you discussi 
with Admiral Poindexter or ^oToneTljorthT 

A I don't recall now whether I did or not. I 
don't have any recollection of doing so. 

Q Did anyone else within the — within main Justice 
Itnow about the Iranian initiative other than Judge Jensen? 

A Not 



Up until November of 1986? 




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A Prior to November of 1986? 

To the best of my knowledge and recollection, no. 

Q Do you have a recollection of anyone at the FBI 
becoming aware of the arms shipments? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of that 
occurring. 

Q What about any other component of the Department 
of Justice? 

A Not that I can recall now. I have a vague 
recollectjion that there was some question raised 
at some time during 1986 about it, about whether certain 
things were author^ed, but I don't have any — I can't 
specifically recall now what it was. 

Q Now the Iran story broke ots or about November 3 
of 1986. There were beginning to be reports from the Mideast 
press, and then picked up in the American press. Do you 
recall how you were first — you first became aware this 
was becoming public? 

A Z don't recall how I first became aware. It 
was presumably through the newspapers. 

Q Did you do anything once you — once this began 
to unravel? In other words, once this story was beginning 
to break? 

A Not that I can recall, although I think it 
have been a subject of conversation generally among 
of my staff An<^|Mfft JICOIB"M| 



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Q From November 3rd, until, let's say, the 20th, 
did you assist in preparing any statements by the Administr; 
tion regarding the arms shipments? 

A Not that I recall. I know that there was at 
least one occasion when there was a briefing on the subject 
at an NSC or NSPG meeting in the White House. 

At that meeting; do you recall when that was? 

A I don't have a specific recollection, i think it 
may be — let me see if I can find that. 

,1 have a chronology here that indicates that .it 
was probably the 10th of November. 

Q Did you take notes at that meeting? 

A Yes, I did. As a matter of fact, I believe 
copies of my notes of that meeting have been supplied to 
the committee. 

Q At that meeting, were the 1985 shipments of TOWs 
and HawJcs discussed? 

A Z believe maybe they were. That may have been 
the first tine I learned about the 19BS shipments. 

Q Do you recall what was said about them and who 
said it? 

A I believe that the information was provided to me 
to all of us who were in the meeting by Admiral Poindexter. 
But I would have to see my notes in order to specifically 
recall. And let me say that I believe that was trfe first 



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time that I learned about it, which was even before Mr. Cooper 
then provided the information to me the following week. 

. Q Do you recall what Admiral Poindexter had to say 
about the shipments, the 1985? 

A I don't remember how much was specified in 
terms of dates. I do remember that there were discussions 
as to the quantity of TOW missiles that were provided, and I 
believe what was described as Hawk parts. Hawk missile 

parts were provided. 

'^ ^ . . , I 

Q J So he told you that it was Hawk missile parts. 
A I believe so. I would have to see my notes. 
Mr. Matthews is obtaining copies of my notes. 

Q Was it 

A Where I can answer you specifically — I am 
referring now to my notes of a — what is described in my 
notes as a National Security meeting on the 10th of November, 
1986, at 11:30 a.m., in the Oval Office. '' 

MR. LEON: How many pages are your notes, General? 
THE WITNESS: My notes that I have here, is three 
pages of notes. i " 

MR. LEON; They are all handwritten, are they not? 
THE WITNESS: They are all handwritten; right. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Using those notes then to refresh your recollection- 
A Right. 



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Q so you recall Admiral Poindexter talking 

about the 1985 shipments? 

_ A I don't see anything here that talks about a date 
as early as 1985. The only dates that I see here refer to 
a 17th of January 1986 finding, and something that says the 
first channel was continued until late summer, 1996, and a 
McFarlane trip to Tehran in May of 1986. 

Q If I can back up for a moment? 

A Yes. 

Q ,You also met with Admiral Poindexter at the 
White House on, 1 believe, November 5th and 6th; do you 
recall what that meeting was about? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Do you know if it was related to the Iran 
initiative? 

A I don't know for sure. It is possible that he 
may have discussed with me that we wanted to have some 
assistance in reviewing the law relating to this matter, 
because I do know on the 10th of November, I asked Charles 
Cooper, the Assistant Attorney General in charge of the 
Office of Legal Counsel, to be prepared to look into it and 
I believe told him either then or subsequently that he 
would be receiving a call from Paul Thompson of John 
Poindexter *s staff. So it is possible, although I don't 
have a specific recollection, that Admiral Poindeiter said 



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they would like some legal assistance in regard to the matter. 

Q Do you recall telling Assistant Attorney General Ctoooer 
limit the staffing to one lawyer? 

A I told him -- I don't have a specific recollection, 
but I have discussed this with him since. His recollection 
is that I told him this is a very sensitive matter, which it 
obviously was, and that he should limit his staff probably 
to one other staff member. This is Mr. Cooper's recollection 
and it is not inconsistent with what I am sure I probably 
did at the time. 

Q Did you tell Mr. Cooper about the prior finding, 
your involvement in the prior finding in January of 1986? 

A We had a very quick conversation, because it was 
at a meeting, a management planning meeting that we had, I 
think, somewhere off-site here, and it was a very brief 
conversation. It was just kind of a heads-up warning 
order to him that this would be coming, and that he would 
probably b« contacted by someone from the NSC. 

Q Now some tine 

A I should say from the NSC staff. 

Q Now at some time during the process, Mr. Cooper 
prepared for you a book listing some of the staffers 
involved? 

A Yes. 



Q Do you recall receiving that? 



57 



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A I have a recollection of receiving it. He has 
refreshed my recollection since that time that he did do 
that and that it was given to me. 

Q Did you review the book? 

A I am sure — I don't have a specific recollection. 
I probably looked at it at the time, or looked briefly 
through it, but had it available. 

Q Mr. Cooper testified that at a certain point 
he began to focus on the November '85 and August '85 
shipments jregarding the legal issues that might be involved. 
Do you recall when you began to focus on those issues as 
possible legal problems? 

A Probably — it is probable I could have focused 
on them — and I don't have a specific recollection — it is 
possible I could have focused on them during the week prior 
to the 20th of November. I am sure that I did focus on 
them probably at or after that general period of time, going 
front the 20th of November through the 25th of November. 
During most of that time, I was less concerned with the legal 
problems, specifically, than I was certainly from the 21st, 
on getting at the facts; but I think on the 20th, one of the 
reasons I was at the White House on that day was to look at 
any legal aspects that might b« coming up in the testimony 
of Director Casey, and the briefing of Admiral Poindexter, 
whether they specifically — whether the legal aspects — 



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"I specifically related to things happening in 1985, i can't 

2 remember . 

3 ' Q You were aware by that time that there might be 
^ problems with CIA involvement if there was a no finding 

5 at the time? 

6 A I don't believe I learned that until over the week- 

7 end of the 21st through the 24th. . 

8 Q So then what legal issues were you concerned about 

9 when you went to the meeting on the 20th? 

10 A Well, it was any legal issues that might be 

11 involved. The ones I had particularly in mind had to do 

12 with the National Security Act and the Arms Export Control 

13 Act, the opinion of William French Smith, and the issues 

14 relating to the notification of Congress. 

15 Q From November 7, then, until the 20th, did you 

16 discuss any of these legal issues with anyone other than 

17 Mr. Cooper? 

18 A Well, the specific discussion of legal issues, 

19 I don't recall with anyone other than Mr. Cooper and 

20 then only briefly. Obviously, the discussion of legal 

21 issues as a general subject, I believe I discussed with 

22 Admiral Poindexter when he requested the assistance, but only 

23 in that context. 

24 Q Did you tell Admiral Poindexter that there might 

25 be a problem with the 1985 shipments? 



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A I don't know at the time I talked with Admiral 
Poindexter, that I knew about any 1985 shipments. I 
don.'t recall whether I knew that or not. I do not recall 
ever discussing that with Admiral Poindexter that there 
might be a problem. 

MR. LEON: You are referring to the discussion 
with him prior to the 10th, are you not. General? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the only discussion 
that I can speculate that I had with Admiral Poindexter on 
it. And pven then, I don't have a distinct recollectipn 
of that discussion. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q As to your discussion with Mr. Ledeen on November 
14th, did you take notes of that meeting? 

A Only the note that you have, which was a topic 
heading, and a note that he claimed he had been connected 
with McFarlane in 1985. I did not discuss that in any 
great detail with Mr. Ledeen. when he mentioned it, I think 
we went on to another subject because I didn't know how 
much he was authorized to kjiow and so 1 didn't really 
continue the discussion with him to any great extent. 

Q Well, at this point, you had begun to do legal 
research and find out about this? 

A I hadn't. Mr. Cooper had. 



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You directed Mr. Cooper to do it. But you 
didn't ask Mr. Ledeen anything about his involvement or 
what had happened? 

A I really didn't didn't pursue the discussion with 
Mr. Ledeen at all. It was a very sensitive subject. I 
didn't know how much he was entitled to know, so I just 
didn't pursue it with him, other than what he said to me, 
which I have already reflected. 

Q You met with Mr. Gerson before the meeting with 
Mr. Ledeea. Do you recall — was that in preparation 
for the meeting with Mr. Ledeen? 

A Not that I can recall. Mr. Gerson, I met with 
on frequent occasions. He was at that time my Assistant 
for National Security Affairs. 

Q The records reflect a five-minute meeting with 
Mr. Gerson before the meeting with Mr. Ledeen. Do you 
recall if that was to brief you? 

A I don't recall if that was related to Mr. Ledeen' s 
visit or not. " 

Q Now, there was apparently a National Security 
Council meeting on November 18th, 1986, Do you recall 
if the Iran initiative was discussed at that meeting? 

A I do not recall whether it was or not. Let me 
just — I don't recall whether it was or not. 

Q Now, Mr. Cooper testified that the Presi'dent 



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had a press conference on the 19th of November and made certair 

statements that didn't reflect what the chronologies have 

reflected regarding third country involvement, and that 

you had changed your travel plans to make the meeting on the 

20th. Was that an accurate representation of what 

happened? 

A On the 19th, the President had a news conference. 
I saw at least a portion of that news conference, i think 
I heard part of it going home in the car and saw the rest 
on television, but I am not positive. In the course of 
that news conference, I learned that the President had 
stated things about no third country being involved, I believe, 
was the way he stated it, that led me to believe that he 
had probably not been given accurate — an accurate briefing; 
and I called Mr. Poindexter to discuss that. In the course 
of that conversation, I believe, Mr, Poindexter told me 
that there would b« a meeting the following day, Thursday, 
to prepare for testimony that was going to be given later 
in th« %«««k. And I think it was either at that time or the 
next day that he asked me to participate in that meeting. 
In any event, I determined that night that — I 
was supposed to go to West Point on Thursday the 20th, and 
that I would — I was going to have a tour and some briefings 
at West Point during the day. I think also participate in 
a class. •' 



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I made arrangements to defer my West Point 
participation until the evening when I was the speaker at 
the banquet there and delay my departure for West Point 
until after a meeting — or until late afternoon on the 
20th. 

Q Why didn't you bring Mr. Cooper to the meeting? 

A Because Mr. Cooper was the one who was doing the 
legal research, the legal analysis relating to the whole 
Iran initiative at my request, which we discussed on the 
10th. He would be the person most knowledgeable on the 
legal aspects that we would be discussing. : 

Q Your records indicate you spoke to Mr. Casey that 

morning before the meeting. Do you recall what you discussed? 

A I don't recall what we discussed, no. Unless it 
may have been we were going to meet that afternoon, something 
relating to that. But I don't recall. 

Q Did he tell you anything about his proposed 
testimony at that time? 

A I don't recall if ha did or not. 

Q Mr. Cooper has already testified as to who was 
at the — if I can call it a drafting session? 

A I don't think it was a drafting session. My 
understanding is it was a meeting to review the testimony 
rather than a drafting session. '' ' ^ 

Q All right. We will refer to it then as the meeting 



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to review the testimony on the 20th. He recalled that Mr. 
Thompson, Mr. Poindexter, Mr. Casey, yourself, and Colonel 
North were present. Do you recall anyone else present at 
the meeting? 

A I am not sure whether there was anyone else 
present. There may have been. I don't recall. i think 
there may have been another gentleman by the name of George i 
Cave present, but I am not positive. 
MR. LEON: a CIA gentleman? 
'the WITNESS: Yes; I think so, but I am not positive 
BY MS . NAUGHTON : . 

Q Did you know Mr. Cave? 

A Also ny recollection was that Colonel North came 
in during the meeting rather than being there during the 
whole meeting, but again I am not positive on that. 

Q Did you know Mr. Cave from before? 

A I don't believe I met him before. At least I 
can't recall meeting him before, but it is possible that 
I could have. 

Q 

A I don't recall. As I say, I am not even sure he 
was there, but I believe he was. 

Q What I am getting at is how do you know it was 
Mr, Cave if you hadn't been introduced and hadn't met him? 

A I am 3]i^^ XfL^^ Hf^^W^fi-J^yi^* introduced to him 



** 



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at that time. I just can't recall. 

■-" '. Do you know if he was there or not? 

MR. LEON: There was testimony yesterday by 
Colonel North that his recollection is that he was there. 
THE WITNESS: It is my recollection, too, that 
I believe he was there, but I am not absolutely positive. 

MR. LEON: Mr. Cooper's chronology, which was an 
exhibit to his testimony, I believe, indicates that he 
thought Mr. Gates was there. Let me just double check 

that. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 

MR. LEON: His chronology indicates Gates. However 
I believe in his testimony, Mr. Cooper and — the best 
evidence is his testimony, but my recollection is during 
his testimony Mr. Cooper said he thought it was Gates, but 
he wasn't sure. It might have been someone else, or 

words to that effect. 

THE WITNESS: I don't know. My best guess would 
b« that it probably was Mr. Cave rather than Mr. Gates. 
I don't think, at that time Mr. Gates had any part in this. 
I think he was the Deputy Director of CIA for intelligence 
rather than for operations. So I don't think he had any 
part in this. But I am not positive. ■ "' 

MR. LEON: Did you know Mr. Gates before that 
day? .. - • ••■' , • ♦ 



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THE WITNESS: I had met with Mr. Gates, I believe, 
at the NSC meetings. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Was this meeting also to prepare Admiral Poindexter 
for his briefing? 

A Well, I think at the meeting we learned, or 
maybe I learned that before, that two things were going 
to happen on Friday the 21st. One is that Mr. Casey was 
going to testify before the — I think it is the House 
Intelligence Committee and before the Senate Intelligence 
Committee, and that Mr. Poindexter, since he was not as a 
member of the White House staff in a position to testify, 
was instead going to have a briefing for each of the 
committees and/or some of their staff at the Executive 
Office Building, I think. 

Q Did you see a draft of the testimony before going 
to the meeting? 

A Not that I recall, 

Q Did you takB any notes while at the meeting? 

A I believe that at the meeting we were provided 
copies of the testimony and I believe I took — I made 
some interline notations on the basis of vrfiat was being 
told to us at that time on a document that may have been 
the testimony. 

Q You don't recall taking separate pages- — 



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A I did not take separate notes, no. Not that I can 
recall . 

Q Do yoa recall at some point in the meeting the 
insert being addressed and Colonel North proposing the change 
from, "No one in the CIA found out there were Hawks on that 
shipment in 1985" to "No one in the U.S. Government knew that 
there were Hawks on the shipment"? 

A Well, I don't have a specific recollection of that, 
but I have looked — excuse me — I have looked at a copy 
of a document that was given to me at that meeting, and I 
see in ray handwriting such an interlineation. So I assume 
that that happened at that time. 



The interlineation is in your handwriting; isn't 



it? 



A Yes. Let's refer to it here. 

MR. LEON: General, while your Deputy is looking 

THE WITNESS: Here we are. This is a document 
that says, "Subject, CIA airline involvement." And on that 
document, which I think you have a copy of 

MR. LEON; I would like to hand you what was 
Mr. Cooper's Exhibit 6. It is part of the record already. 

Just look at that to see if you can identify 
any of the handwriting on that? 

THE WITNESS: That appears to be the same document 

I was just looking at. This is identified as CJC-6'. It is 

P 

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an exhibit. 

On this, I can identify some of the handwriting, yes. 
I can identify my handwriting, in the third paragraph, putting 
the words, "the Israelis," and my handwriting appears in the 
6th paragraph, where I have written the word, "neither," 
and then the words "Israelis nor the Iranians knew." 

Subsequently, in that paragraph, "no one in the 
U.S. Government found," and then in the following 
paragraph, the words, "by the Israelis." Then in the same 
paragraph, the words, "another unrelated." 

Those are the items there that are in my handwriting. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q General Meese, did you make those interlineations 
on your own accord or was that a agreed upon by the group? 
A I can't remember for sure, but I think that this 
was generally what was agreed upon by the group. I think 
that is the reason that I put it in there. I didn't know — 
this must have been provided by someone else because I didn't 
have any basis for putting that other than what somebody 
else told me. 

Q Did you propose any changes in the testimony that 
you can recall? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q When the statement was made by Colonel North that 
he wanted to cha;\qe the language to read "no one in the U.S. 



:hange the language to rea 



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Government knew it was Hawks until January of 1986," did 
anybody in the room disagree with that? 
- A Not that I can remember. 

Q Did you know that that was not true? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whether Director Casey knew whether 
that was not true? 

A No. 

Q Did he ever indicate to you at a later time that 
he knew tjiat was not true? 

A No . 

Q Do you recall when you left the meeting, did you 
go to the Department of Justice, back to Justice, or straight 
to West Point? 

A My best recollection is that I went directly 
to Andrews Air Force Base where I flew to West Point. 

MR. MATTHEWS: That should be on the chronology. 
THE WITNESS: Yes. Apparently — I believe I 
left for Andrews to go to West Point about 3:40 in the after- 
noon, is my best recollection . 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Did you discuss this subject, Mr. Casey's testimony 
about the Iran arms sales, with anyone during that period 
of time? That is after you left the meeting until you 
spoke with Mr. Cooper later that night on the telephone? 



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Q I don't specifically recall, but I understand that 
I had a telephone conversation with my deputy, Arnold 
Burns, who relayed to me a conversation he had had with Abraha 
Sofaer, the legal adviser at the State Department . Again, 
I don't have a specific recollection, but the general thing 
was that Mr. Sofaer was concerned about Mr. Casey's proposed 
testimony; and to the best of my recollection, which is very 
indistinct, but piecing this together from what others have 
said, I indicated — thinking that it was what we had just 
been going over and in which corrections had been made, I 
advised Mr. Burns that this matter was being taken care of 
because we just had been going through putting together what 
was, to the best of my knowledge at that time, an accurate 
description of what had occurred, 

Q Do you recall where you were when you spoke to Mr. 
Burns? 

A I don't recall, and it is probably that I was 
on the car phone in my car in route to Andrews, but I am not 
absolutely sure. 

Q Was this a secure phone or unsecure? 

A It was not a secure phone. That is why my 
belief is that we had a very — you might say, elliptical 
discussion rather than being too specific in the course 
of the discussion. 

Q So 



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A In any event, I know it was not a secure phone. 

Q Mr. Burns told you that there was a discrepancy 

in Mr. Casey's testimony? 

A I can't remember the precise wording of the 
conversation. I have a general recollection that there 
was such a conversation. I can't remember specifically 
what he said. But it was more to the nature that there 
were concerns over possible inconsistencies or inaccuracies 
in the proposed testimony of Mr. Casey, which I assumed to 
be the same document that I had seen and which had already 
undergone some changes and corrections to make it consistent 
with what other people knew. 

Q Did you ask him to elaborate on what those were? 

A No. No. Because I assumed that it was what we 
had just been working on and indicated that that was 
already being taken care of. 

Q Did you ask him to go get more facts from Judge 
Sofaer? '■■ :, >' 

A No, I am sure I didn't, particularly since we 
were on an unsecure phone. Again, I assumed this was the 
same matter we had just been working on over in Mr. 
Poindexter's office. 

Q Were you aware that Judge Sofaer had tried to reach 
you first? 

A I don't know whether Mr. Burns told me that on 



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the phone or not. I don't recall whether he did or not. 
Q Did you ever make any attempt to contact Judge 
Sofaer regarding, this matter any time the 20th or 21st? 
A Not that I recall, no. 

MR. POLGAR: One question. Excuse me. 
General Meese, was this document that you just 
looked at, CJC-6, was that the. only document handed out 
at the meeting? 

THE WITHESS: No. I also — I do have a distinct 
recollection there was also, I think, a two-page chrondlogical 
summary with dates and things occurring that covered 1985 and 
1986. That listed things like arras shipments and hostages 
being released and so on. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q General Meese, what was your impression then when 
you left for West Point regarding what Mr. Casey was going 
to tell the Intelligence Committees specifically about the 

1985 shipments? 

A As best as I recall, it was the matters that were 
contained in that document, CJC-6, which we have just referred 

to. 

Q So it was your understanding he was going to tell 
Congress that no one in the U.S. Government knew there were 
Hawks on the shipment until January of 1986? 

A well, I can't specifically recall that that was 
What my impresiUM^I .ftftSJf^jflU?^!!'*^^^^" from 



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the document, it was to the effect that what was portrayed 
in that document was an accurate portrayal of what had 
occurred. And that that is what he would be testifying 
to. 

Q When you got the message from Mr. Burns that 
Judge Sofaer had called, did Mr. Burns tell you that Judge 
Sofaer said that the State Department had a note which 
indicated that at least Secretary of State Shultz disputed 
that point? v,. ,; - j- ^ 

A f I don't recall him telling me that. I doubt if 
he went into that much detail; and since that time, Mr. Burns 
has told me that Mr. Sofaer has told him that he didn't say 
anything to him about having notes. ^ . . 

Q Mr, Burns and Mr. Sofaer subsequently discussed it? 

A Apparently, yes. And that Mr. Sofaer — Mr. Burns 
told me that since that time, Mr. Sofaer has advised him 
that in the coversation that they had in November of 1986, 
Mr. Sofaer did not mention having any notes. 

Q Did you speak with Director Casey on the 20th of 
November after the meeting, any time after the meeting? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q What about anyone from the NSC? Now this is 
prior to when Mr. Cooper informs you of the problem? 

A I don't recall talking to anyone from the NSC, 

NSC staff you are asking about? .' _ 



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Do you recall when you first heard from Mr. 



Q Yes. 

What about anyone from the White House? 
A I don't recall talking to anyone from the white 
House. 
Q 
Cooper? 

A I heard from Mr. Cooper on the evening of the 20th 
of November. I was at West Point. I was in the middle 
of a dinner and a reception following the dinner, my best 
recollection is, and they were trying to get the secure phone 
to work. Finally, around — some time around 10 o'clock, 
perhaps, they finally got the secure phone to work and I then 
talked with Mr. Cooper, and I think we had two — at least 
one and probably two different conversations that evening 
on the secure phone. 

Q What did he tell you the problem was? 
A And he said -- now, as best I can recall — and 
this is perhaps not exactly — but it was to the effect 
that the State Department had additional information about 
Hawk shipments or at least about arms shipments in November 
of 1985, which appeared to be inconsistent with the 
testimony that Mr. Casey was going to give, and that this 
information had been apparently — had been provided to 
George Shultz while he was at Geneva. 

Q Did he tell you that Mr. McFarlane told.' Secretary 



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Shultz? " 

Q I don't recall whether he went into that much 
detail or not. But at least that Mr. Shultz had that 
information. r 

Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you there was a note or 
documentation to that effect? j 

A I think he did, but I aun not positive. Again, 
I can't recall the specifics of the discussion, 

Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you that Judge Sofaer had 
threatene(^ to — or said that he would have to resign if 
this discrepancy was not alleviated? 

A I can't recall that he did. 

Q Did he tell you that Mr. Amacost, who was set 
to testify with. Mr. Casey the next day, would have to dispute 
what Mr. Casey said if that is what was testified to? 

A I can't recall specifically that he did, but it is 
possible. 

Q In your mind then, how did that differ from what 
Mr. Bums had told you earlier? In other words, I gather 
you made plans to return to Washington as soon as possible? 

A Oh, yea. Well, it differed — it was much — a 
whole new area of information that was beyond what I had 
assumed Mr, Burns was telling me, because it went beyond 
the corrections that we had made in the testimony, the 
memorandum in t4r. Poindexter's office. .' 



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Q Did you call Director Casey and find out what 
the story was? 

A I don't remember whether I called. I didn't 
call him that night. I may have called him the next 
morning, but I am not sure. 

Q Well 

A I don't think so, though. I don't believe so. 
I think by the time I got back here, it was probably after 
he had already gone to the testimony. I don't recall anyway 
talking with Mr. Casey on the morning of the 21st of 
November. 

Q The first time then that you did get a chance to 
speak to him, did you discuss the '95 shipment and what 
— in other words, did you try to resolve it in your own mind 
what happened? 

A Well, at that point, I don't remember discussing — 
talking with .Mr, Casey at all on the morning of the 21st of 
November. I did talk to Mr. Cooper on that morning and 
somehow I arranged to meet with the President at 11:30 
on that day; and whether that was through. Mr. Poindexter or 
through Mr. Regan, I don't know. But I had reached the 
conclusion by that time that what appeared to me was that 
different people had different pieces of this story. Because 
it was such a highly compartmentalized operation, it was my 
impression, at that time, that different people knew different 



that time, that different 

(UNCLASSIFIED 



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things and they didn't all match up because of the 
fact that no one had tried to put a coherent story together 
and that it — therefore, I went to see the President tc 
say that in order to be sure we were presenting an accurate 
picture to the Congress, it was necessary to have someone 
review all of the facts and what everybody knew, and put it 
together so that there would be a coherent and accurate 
presentation to the Congress and to the public. 

Q Did you speak to anyone that night on the 2Qth, 
from the United States Government, other than Mr. Cooper? 

A Well, I was speaking to a bunch of people from the 
United States Government at West Point. But as far as here 
in Washington, nobody that I recall. I may have had to talk 
to somebody about making arrangements to come back the next 
day, but I am not sure of that. 

Q Did you take any steps to make sure that Mr. 
Casey's testimony was changed if inaccurate or was — 
or this point was brought up and discussed, and deleted, 
if necessary? 

A I recall generally telling Mr. Cooper to do that, 
and he may have already done that, or was in contact with him 
that night. He was going to be talking, I think, with 
Mr. Dougherty who was then the General Counsel at CIA, 
if I remember correctly. He was going to be working on that, 
and I indicated that if there were any problems, l>e should 



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get in touch with me because we wanted to be sure that 
Mr. Casey's testimony was accurate the next day. 
Q Do you recall when you left West Point? 
A I think I left West Point some time around 6:30 
or so in the morning. 

Q And you arrived at the Department of Justice when? 
A I can't recall exactly. I think it was around 
9: 30, or somewhere along that line. 

MR. MATTHEWS: There is a notation on the 
chronology there. 

THE WITNESS: Let's see. Here it is. 
I arrived here, apparently, some time around 
9 o'clock, because I have a notation here that my — I met 
with Mr. Burns, Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Richardson 
at 9:15 a.m., for one and half hours. So I was here 
apparently by 9 o'clock. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Did you attend the regular staff meeting that 

morning? 

A No. I believe I arrived here after the staff 
meeting was over. That would be indicated by this time. 

Q DO you recall, let's say, up through November 21st, 
whether or not there was any discussion at staff meetings 
regarding the arms sales to Iran? 

A I don't recall any such discussions. It is 




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entirely possible that there was. 

Q Then taking it then, my same question, through, 
let's say, November 24, which is the following Monday, was 
there any discussion of involving the Criminal Division in 
an investigation of the Iranian arms sales? 

A Are you talking now about a staff meeting or at 
any time? 

Q At any point in discussion within the Department 
of Justice, 

A Well, on the 21st, there may have been discussion 
about involving the Criminal Division, although I don't 
have a specific recollection of it. There was nothing at 
that time that appeared to be any criminal activity or any 
basis for it, and I remember that specifically, because I 
did have a discussion on the 21st of November with Director 
Webster in which we both agreed that there would be no 
basis for calling in the FBI — calling in the FBI to assist 
in the factual review that the President asked me to under- 
take, would not justify calling in the FBI to assist, because 
this was essentially a governmental administrative matter, 
and was not a criminal matter. 

Q If I can back up one step before the Webster 
conversation. When you say there was discussion about 
whether or not this should be done by the Criminal Division, 



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78 

1 A No. I don't recall any such discussion. I know 

2 there was discussion as to whether the — it was a criminal 

3 matter in the context of the FBI. I don't recall whether 

4 there was a similar discussion as to whether there was — 

5 whether there was any question about the Criminal Division 

6 being involved. 

7 Q Was there ever any discussion throughout the 

8 weekend by anyone in the Criminal Division that perhaps 

9 they should be involved in correcting the facts? 

10 A ^ Not that I can recall, no. Not that I recall, 

11 Q As to 

12 A I don't believe I talked to anyone over the week- 

13 end in the Criminal Division that I can recall. 

14 Q Well, my question included through the 24th, that 

15 is through Monday, because Tuesday is your press conference. 
ts A Yes. I don't know that I talked with anyone in the 
17 Criminal Division on the 24th. I don't recall whether 

']g I was at th« staff meeting on the 24th or not. But in any 

^g event, I don't recall any such discussion. I did have a 

2Q discussion about criminal aspects on the afternoon of the 

21 21st, at which time I asked Mr. Cooper to review the 

22 facts as we had them, and to do a preliminary review to 

23 determine whether or not there was anything that would 

24 justify a criminal inquiry. 

25 MR. LEON: Is that the 24th., General? ' 



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THE WITNESS: 24th, yes. c f 

MR. LEON: 24th? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. LEON: If I may ask one 

THE WITNESS: Let's just check here now. Yes. i 
did — this is interesting. I did meet with members of the 
Criminal Division or at least with Bill Weld and Steve 
Trott at 5:30 on the 24th on another matter, but not anything 
related to this. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Okay. 

} 

MR, LEON: I just wanted to clarify one other point 
for the record. 

That call with Judge Webster on Friday the 21st7 

MR. WITNESS: Yes, I met with — I believe I 
met with Judge Webster on that day, 

MR. LEON: Would that have been before or after yoa 
saw the President? 

THE WITNESS : That would have been after the 
President. I talked with him about what I was doing. He 
specifically discussed whether it would be proper to bring 
in the FBI, We both agreed that it would not. What I 
had in mind then was particularly how other Presidents had 
been critizlzed for using the FBI in matters that were not 
criminal matters, I think it was President Kennedy in the 
steel Industry matter and other things like that,' 



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-.. BY MS, NAUGHTON: . 
.;. Q What exactly did you tell Director Webster? 

A I told — well, I can't recall the exact conversatio 
but I indicated the President had asked me to do a factual 
review of the matters pertaining to the Iran initiative and 
because there were different people who had different bits 
of information and that we wanted to try to put it together 
into a coherent version of the whole thing. 

Q Did you explain to hlin the discrepancies in Casey's 
testimony? ' 

A I don't think I went into specific details about 
it, other than what I mentioned, that different people had 
remembered different parts of it. >. 

Q Do you know whether or not he was aware that Mr. 
Casey was testifying that day? 

A I don't know vrtiether he was or not, I am sure I 
probably mentioned that. Or that he knew of it. It was 
generally known. There was quite a bit of publicty 
about it. 

Q When Mr, Cooper came back, he testified he went 
to the CIA that morning as you were getting back from 
West Point? 

A Yes. 

Q When he came back and you had your meeting at or 
about 9:15, did he mention he had learned from Mri Dougherty 



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that the CIA pilot — the pilot for the CIA proprietary 
knew that he had military equipment aboard the plane in 
November of 1985? 

A I don't recall that he did, but he may well have. 

Q What did Mr. — after Director Casey testified 
in the morning, you met with Mr. Bolton and others later 
that day, and Mr. Bolton briefed you on what Mr. Casey had 
testified to? -^ » 

A That is correct. 

Q What did Mr. Bolton tell you Mr. Casey had said 
about the November Hawk shipment? 

A I can't recall now what he told me about it. 

Q Okay . 

In your mind, though, in terns of what he told you, 
did that alert you to any problem, or did It ease any 
concerns you had? 

A I can't recall that it had any effect one way or 
the other. I do note that I met with him apparently that 
afternoon about 2:15. -^ • ■ 

Q If Z can skip back to your meeting with the 
President, who else was present when you briefed the President 
on this? 

A At that meeting was Mr. Poindexter, Don Regan, 
the President, and myself. That is all that I can recall. 

Q Did you explain the Shultz version of events, 



what Mr. Cooper 



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A I may have referred to it, but it was mainly to say 
that different people had different information concerning 
what had happened in November and that we really didn't have 
a coherent picture or a complete overview of what had taken 
place there, and I mentioned to the President, I believe, 
that because this had been so compartmentalized, that NSC 
staff had done some things, CIA had done some things, I 
believe I mentioned the Department of the Army had done 
some things, that some of it was known to the State Department 
because of what had happened in Geneva, that as a result, 
we had a lot of people with, different parts of the puzzle 
and that it was necessary to get an overview so that he, 
the President, would know all the things that had happened, 
and also that we could be sure we were providing an accurate 
picture to the Congress. That was my main concern, and 
also, for example, to the public. ^;. 

Q Did you suggest then that you be delegated to 
gather these facts? 

A I don't remember whether I suggested it or whether 
he suggested it. In any event, it developed that I did. 
I may have said I would be willing to do this if that is 
what he wanted to do. 

Q Do you recall why you did this as opposed to Mr. 
Regan or the — someone at the White House gathering these 



facts? 



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A No. I think that it came up that I should do it. 
And as I say, I may have said I would be glad to do it if 
he wanted me to, or have somebody else do it, 

Q Was there any discussion — Colonel North 
indicated in his testimony yesterday that you were doing 
this not as Attorney General, but as, "Friend of the 
President." 

Did you see — it may not be a fair question, 
but in your mind were you acting as Attorney General during 

this inquiry or as counselor to the President? 

J 
A Well, I don't know what I specifically thought 

about what my role was. Certainly I was — as the principal 

legal adviser to the President, I felt an obligation to be 

sure that any testimony that was given was accurate, and 

that was certainly the principal motivation. So I 

would say that probably if you had to pick a role, that I 

was acting as the legal adviser to the President. 

Q Did you consult with Mr.Wallison about this? 

A No. 

Q Now Admiral Poindexter was present at that 
meeting with the President? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you discuss with the President then ejcactly 
how you would go about that? Or did you leave the details 



to a later time? 



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A Well, I told the President that I thought the best 
way to go about it was to talk with all of the various 
individuals who might have information and to then present 
an outline of what had occurred i and he asked me to do it, to 
see if I could get this accomplished by 2 o'clock on Monday, 
because at that time, I believe, there was an NSC or NSPG 
meeting scheduled to discuss the Iran situation. 

Q Did you meet after the meeting with the President — 
did you meet with other people at the White House, or the 
seune people? 

A My records show — or a chronology prepared by 
my office shows that I had lunch that noon with Mr. Reynolds, 
Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Richardson; that I met with Judge Webster 
at 1:45, I believe on another topic; and that I met with 
Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, Mr. Bolton, and Mr. Richardson at 
2:15, and also probably Mr. Eastland at that time, that 
I called Mr. McFarlane at 2:28, and that I met with Mr. 
McFarlan« at 3:3Q that afternoon. 

Q Getting back to after you met with the President, 
and that meeting, I take it, occurred around 11 o'clock in 
the morning? 

A I believe it was 11:30. 
Q Do you recall how long it took^? 

A I think it was probably 15 or 2Q minutes, probably 
as much as a half _ hour ,_^ no t^n^raor^than that, I don't believe 




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Q Where did you go right after -- was this in the 
Oval Office? 

A Yes. 

Q Where did you go right after that? 

A I may have talked with Mr. Poindexter, although 
I don't recall that, or Mr. Regan walking down the hall, 
but I believe I came back to the Department of Justice. 

Q Was there a discussion at that time with Admiral 
Poindexter and Mr. Regan about sending a team over from the 
department to review NSC documents? 

A No. No. I think I talked with Admiral Poindexter 
in the day on that, because the first thing I wanted to do 
was develop a plan for what we were going to do, and I had 
not done that while I was at the White House. 

Q Did you tell Admiral Poindexter that it was your 
intention to interview people about this? 

A Well, I think that it was certainly implicit, if 
not explicit, in what we discussed with the President, that 
I would talk with various people who might have information, , 
yes. 

Q Did you tell Admiral Poindexter — now this is 
at least 11:30 — I guess about 12 o'clock, did you tell 
him that — did you give him any instructions? In other 
words, to have his people get their documents together 
or that you would be interviewing his people, or ^et 



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their schedules cleared? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Do you recall — did you speak to Oliver North 
any time on Friday the 21st of November? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did you communicate in writing with him at any 
time? 

A Not that I recall. I doubt if I communicated 
in writing with him. 

Q Did he call you at any time on the 21st? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q when you did call, if we can skip ahead, to Admiral 
Poindexter, some time around 3 o'clock, I believe, that after- 
noon, is that when you told him to get the documents ready, 
or that they would be reviewed? 

A To the best of my recollection — and this is all 
fairly hazy about the specifics — but in the planning 
meeting that I had with Mr. Richardson, Mr. Cooper, Mr. 
Reynolds, I made a list of the different people that I 
wanted to talk to, either then, or during the course of 
the early afternoon; and then I also made a list of the kinds 
of things we needed to do. And one of the things that in 
order to try to piece things together a coherent account 
was to look at any documents that might help in that regard. 
So in the course of the afternoon — and I am not 



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sure exactly what time — I do know that I apparently made 
a call to Mr. Poindexter at 2:58 p.m., on the secure line. 
So it is entirely possible that it was at that point that I 
said that we would be sending some people over to review 
documents, to assist in the fact finding on the following 
day, and probably in that conversation I asked him for a point 
of contact to assist with that, because I know he did assign 
Commander Thompson, Paul Thompson, to that task. 

Q Did you distinguish which records you wanted to 
see? 

A No. I think we talked about seeing documents 
relating to the Iran initiative. 

Q You didn't say you wanted to see McFarlane's 
documents. North's documents? 

A No. We wanted to see any documents there that they 
thought might be helpful. 

Q At that point, were you aware of what is now known 
as PROF messages? 

A No. As a matter of fact, I don't know I was 
a%rare of that until I heard it in the recent hearings. But 
I certainly was not aware of them at that time. Or at least 
I don't recall being atnire of them. 

Q Did Admiral Poindexter have any questions for you 
at that point? 

A Not that I recall. 



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-' Q Did he say that he had already alerted his staff 
to the possibility that you would be making this inquiry? 
. . -s - A I don't recall whether he did or not. 
'r Q You mentioned that around 12:45 you met with Mr. 

Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, and Mr. Richardson? 

A Sometime — my notes — the chronology that was 
prepared said I had lunch with them. Yes. It says, 
had lunch with them. It doesn't say a specific time. 
Sometime, I would say, between 12 and 1, we began and I note 
that I mett with Judge Webster at 1:45. So it was some .time 
between 12 and 1:45 that we had lunch. 

Q And why did you select those individuals to help 
you in this investigation or in this inquiry? 

A Well, I selected Mr. Cooper because he was the 
head of the Office of Legal Counsel which provides the legal 
advice on National Security matters. I selected Mr. Reyonlds 
because at that time I had asked him to coordinate national 
security natters generally within the Depatment of Justice, 
the various components, and we were in the process then of 
setting up kind of a coordination group, or doing some 
research at least on doing that. So he was the one who had 
that responsibility. And then normally, I would have assigned 
my counselor. Ken Cribb, as the fourth one and he was on 
vacation at the time. So I assigned his assistant, John 



Richardson. 



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89 



Q It seems, from what Mr. Cooper has told u*, that 
they had quite a large task at hand. Did you ever, during 
that — during tha* whole weekend, consider bringing more 
attorneys in to help them review documents or interview 
witnesses? "... 

A I don't recall it. I am sure if we had needed 
it, I would have at the time, but I don't recall either 
considering it or feeling the need to do that. 



Q Did they ever ask for assistance? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Do you know whether or not any of these attorneys 
have had any criminal investigative or trial experience? 

A well, Mr. Reynolds has had an extensive trial 
practice. He was primarily in civil work. Mr. Cooper, 
I do not believe has had any major criminal experience, 
and I know Mr. Richardson has not. And, for example, at 
the time there was — I was not looking for people with 
criminal experience. 1 was looking basically for people with 
national security experience, or general competence, 
as in the case of Mr. Richardson. 

Q Did you consider then, perhaps, bringing in Mary Lawto' 
or someone from that divi sion of the Departme nt of Justice, 
who works every with^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

A No. NO, I didn't. Because I was looking more 
at people who were concerned with national security policy 



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r. 15 

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end jm *^ 

take 3 fl^ 
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90 



rather than intelligence policy. 

Q Why did you brief Director Webster on this on 
Friday? '' - 

A My best recollection is he was in hereon another 
matter, but it was just a matter really to discuss with him, 
as a member of our management team, the whole subject of 
whether we should bring in the FBI or not. And as I say, 
my recollection was he was here on something else, but he 
may have come over specifically, but I would — l just wanted 
to discuss, with hira at least the possibility — the reason 
I brought it up with him was to discuss the possibity of 
whether it would be appropriate to bring in the FBI which 
would be another resource for conducting this inquiry. 

Q Did you speak to Director Webster after that on 
Friday the 21st? • - 

A Well, ray records — the records that have been 
constructed here show that he called at 6:09 p.m.. And 
I can't recall what that conversation was about. 



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Q You say you can't recall what you discussed. 

A In the later conversation, no, I don't recall. 

Q Might you have discussed the inquiry and the 

Iranian subject? In other words, would you have recalled 
that kind of discussion as opposed to some other subject 
matter? ', ■• 

A No. I just don't have any recollection at all 

of what we discussed at that time. 

Q Has he ever reminded you of that since? 

A No. Not that I recall. We haven't discussed it 

f 

since. 

Q If we can jump ahead, as long as we are on 
Director Webster. After your press conference on the 2 5th 
when he came over to the Departnvent of Justice, did he 
express to you any concern or displeasure at not havinq 
been involved in the weekend inquiry? 

A No, not that I recall. -. r 

Quite the contrary. My- recollection, and certainl 
we have had discussions since, and they were clear that he 
has always felt that we both concurred that it would not 
have been appropriate to bring the FBI in based on what 
we knew on the 21st. 

Q At or aUbout 2:25 or so that afternoon — 

A Which afternoon? 

Q Friday afternoon, the 21st. * 



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93 



dfmDff&SBtlueET 



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92 



Yes. 



A 

Q Mr. Bolton briefed you on Mr. Casey's testimony 
and you had a meeting with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Reynolds and 
Mr. Richardson?' 

A My notes show I met with all of them, including 
Mr. Bolton, at 2:15. 

Q Was there any discussion during that meeting of 
the possibility that some of the TOWs may have been 
diverted to the contras in Nicaragua? 



Not that I recall. 



Q Was there any discussion of Nicaragua at all 
during that meeting? 

A No. Not that I recall. 

Q When you called Mr. McFarlane, do you recall 
where he was when you spoke with him? 

A I don't recall where he was and I'm not sure I 
would have known because my secretary would have tracked 
him down wherever he was. 

Q Do you recall any particular difficulty in getting 
hold o£ him? 

A There may have been difficulty. I am not sure. 
I have a vague recollection of that, but I can't be precise. 

Q When you told him what your task was, did it 
seem to you as though he was hearing this for the first 
time or had he been made aware of the fact that you were 



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going to be inquirinq? 

A I don't know and I don't have any reason to 
believe that he had been aware. My impression now is 
that this was the first he'd heard of it, but I can't be 
sure. ■ - - 

Q As to the-- 

A My notes show that I called Mr. McFarlane at 
2:28, according to the records that have been constructed 
here . 

Q Did you ask him to bring any documents with him? 

A No. I just asked him if he would come in. 
I think we had decided over lunch that that would be the 
logical starting point for the inquiry. 

Q Because he presumably would know the most about 
how this started? 

A Yes. 

Q In terms of the order of the witnesses or the 
people you tried to interview, was that the general logic 
behind why you did it in that particular order? 

A I think it was a combination of who was available 
and we had a list of people that I wanted to talk with, and 
then it was a matter of — I think with Mr. McFarlane, that 
that was the logical starting point because he would know 
the most about it and how the whole thing got started. 



ONMSSi^^^T 



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Then there were others I wanted to talk with. 
Some of them just happened to be fortuitous. For example, 
that evening, George Shultz called me. He, I think, had 
been out of town. I think I had placed a call to him. 
Maybe he had heard it from Mr. Poindexter. He knew i 
would want to talk with him. We arranged to do that the 
next morning at 8 o'clock. I was trying to suit his 
convenience. I am not sure whether he was playing golf that 
day or not. Anyway/ we got together the next morning at 
8 o'clock. He was readily available and wemted to be 
cooperative. 

Q Did Secretary of State Shultz tell you that he 
had visited with the President on this matter on or about 
the 20th? 

A I don't know whether he bold me then on the phone 
or whether he told me the next morning, but I do know 
he told ma that. I know he — I am sure repeated it. If 
he already told me that, he repeated it the next morning. 

Q Did he say that he had visited the night of the 
20th with the President? 

A I think that's when he told me he had visited 
with the President, yes. 

Q Did he say he had discussed with the President 
this discrepancy or differences of opinion in Mr. Casey's 



testimony? 



iJNj»fcfts»e£e^E^ 



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A Yes. My best recollection is that he did tell 
me that. -.-, , , 

Q So, when you were telling the President this on 
Friday morning, this was not the first he had heard of it 
presumably? . ^ 

A I guess that's correct. 

Q Why did you want to interview Mr. Sporkin? 

A Because somewhere along the line, possibly from 
Mr. McFarlane, we learned that Mr. Sporkin had been 
involved in this. I probably would have wanted to interview 
him anyway. The General Counsel of the CIA would be 
knowledgeable about anything like this. Somehow that had 
come into the picture, probably as a result of my 
conversation with Mr. McFarlane; and I think Mr. Sporkin 
was interviewed in that order simply because he was availabit 
at that time. 

Q But your recollection is that Mr. McFarlane 
had mentioned Judge Sporkin 's name? 

A I don't know whether he did this or what. 

Steve, let 'a look at that list that I made. If 
you could get that document for me just to see, that may 
jog my memory. 

Q While he's looking, it is my recollection that 
Judge Sporkin 's name comes actually fairly high on the 
list. I'm curious as to why he may have been more 



IiN^ft$«ll»flf|:!T 



97 



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i.Tiportant to interview than — 

A Probably had to do with the fact that he had 
looked into that Hawk shipment or the finding that resulted 
from it, and that probably came from my conversation with 
Mr. McFarlane. But I don't recall, or it may just be that 
somehow I had learned that he was — 

MR. LEON: Are you referring to this? 

THE WITNESS: That's Cooper's. Let's see. 
I think — 

Here we are. Actually what I was doing, I was 

) 
listing McFarlane as the first one, Shultz, North, McMahon, 

Sporkin, CIA Deputy Associate Director for Operations who 

authorized the flight in November 1985. So I was really 

taking this in kind of a stream af consciousness as I had 

heard these stories. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q This list was made when? 

A Made by me on the 21st of November. 

Q And~ 

A I'm not sure where I got a lot of these names, 
Dietel, Deputy General Counsel of CIA. They may have been 
suggested by Chuck Cooper. Probably a lot of this came from 
Chuck Cooper because he had been out at CIA and knew a 
lot of the people involved. 

Probably the suggestion of Sporkin actnally came 



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prp 



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from hun, I would suspect, rather than McFarlane, now that 
I see this list. 

Q When you were meeting with Mr. McFarlane, did 
either you or Mr. Cooper tell him about the Shultz--that 
Shultz recalled a conversation in November of 1985 regarding 
the Hawk shipment that differed from his rendition? 

A I'd have to look at my notes to see whether I 
did. Let me just see if I can find that. 

Yes. I'm sure we did discuss it. Well, I'm not 
sure . ' 

Q Maybe I can approach it-- 

A Oh. Yes. Yes. Here. These are the notes here. 
At the sununit in Geneva, he learned that Israel had shipped 
oil equipment. Rabin called from New York and said they had 
a problem with the shipment to Iran. McFarlane said he 
asked North to assist. North reported back that Israel had 
hit a snag in customs^^^^^^^^^H and it may take a call 
to the Prima Ministe^^^^^^^^^B A couple of days later 
h« talked with him, with the Prime Ministe 
McFarlane said it was an important project and would 
appreciate his assistance. 

He doesn't remember the chat with George Shultz. 
So, apparently, we did talk with him about it. But he 
probably had one, he said. 

Q First of all, do you recall if you mentioned that 




LiNCLASSfFi^ES) 



99 



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98 

there was a note that Secretary Shultz had? 

A I don't remember whether we mentioned that 
specifically to Mr. McFarlane. 

Q Do you recall--when the interview w«is concluded, 
was your understanding then that Mr. McFarlane believed 
that It was oil-drilling equipment until told differently 
when he was on his Iranian mission in May of 1986? 

A That's what he told us, yes. That's what he 
told us at that time. 

Q ; Okay. So, in other words, when you informed him 
of Secretary Shultz' s recollection, did he dispute that or 
did he say, "Well maybe that's right"? Or did he say he 
definitely did not know until May of 1986? 

A I don't recall, and the notes say that he said 
he didn't remember the chat with George Shultz, but he 
probably had one. 

Q What wa« your impression of Mr. McFarlane 's 
statement at the conclusion of the interview? Mr. Cooper 
testified that he felt he had not been totally forthcoming. 
What was your opinion? 

A Well, my impression was that he was concerned 
about this and somewhat hesitant about certain aspects of 
it. 

Q About which aspects? 

A Well, ray recollection is that he was somewhat 



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hesitant about the aspects of the discussions with the 
President and the transfers that had taken place by the 
Israelis during 1985. I 

Q And what was his hesitancy or his concern? 

A I don't know. Just looked to me like he was hesita 
about it. I don't know if he was having trouble rememberina 
or what it was. 

Q After the interview concluded — 

A Yes. 

Q And there came a point at which Mr. Cooper left 
the room and Mr. McFarlane had a short conversation with 
you. Can you tell us what you recall about that? 

A I don't remember for sure whether it was while 
we were still in the room or walking out. But, at some 
point, he said something about — and this is to the best 
of my recollection — and that is that he had apparently 
given a speech or something in which he had taken a lot 
of the responsibility for this whole thing on his shoulders, 
and I think he made reference to that. 

But he said something to the effect that he wanted 
me to be — to know that the President was basically behind 
this whole thing all along, and I said to him that it was 
a very important — that he be sure to tell the truth and 
that it was important to tell the truth about every aspect 
and not try to shade it one way or the other thinking he 



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was protecting the President, that actually things that 
might have happened such as the President approving certain 
aspects of this might be helpful rather than hurtful, but 
the important thing was that he ought to tell the truth 
exactly as it occurred. 

Q And by youi; reference to the President approving 
things that may have happend, did you have in mind the 198 5 
shipments? In other words, if there was Presidential 
approval? 

A J I didn't have anything particulary in mind, . 
although that, in effect, was correct. Probably as a legal 
matter. But I didn't really have that in mind as much as 
it was getting across to him that he shouldn't try to 
predict how things would come out and how that would affect 
the situation, but that he should tell it exactly as it 
happened and tell the truth in every aspect of it. 

Q There has been quite a bit of discussion about 
whether or not you discussed an oral finding or a mental 
finding with Mr. McFarlane on this or any other occasion. 
Do you recall if you did? 

A I don't recall ever having that discussion with 
Mr. McFarlane. As a matter of fact, I believe that was 
checked later on with his attorney and he indicated that 
it was not with me that he had such a discussion, but that 
he heard that — that some other Attorney General 'had made a 



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statement that an oral finding was appropriate. 

Q You discussed this with him later? 

A No. I think somebody in my office talked with 
him or his attorney later on and was made to believe that 
this was — that Mr. McFarlane, when he may have subsequently 
said that, was not referring to any conversation with me. 
But I have no recollection of ever discussing that with him. 

Q Did Mr. McFarlane indicate to you whether or not 
he had told the President on November 18th, 1985, along 
with the Secretary of State, about the Hawk shipment? 

A Let's see. I don't have a recollection of whether 
he did or not. I am trying to see if I find it in the notes. 
I don't see anything referring to it in the notes. 

Q I don't believe there are. 

A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. McFarlane talk to you aibout his preparatior 
of the chronologies? 

A I don't recall whether he did. 

Q Did he make any reference to plans to shred any 
documents at the NSC? 

A I don't recall any such conversation. I'd have 
to refresh my recollection from the notes, but right now, 
I don't recall any such conversation. 

Q And did he tell you that any of the Iran proceeds 
had been diverted to the contra movement in Nica'ragua? 



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A No. I have no recollection that he did, and i 
don't believe that he did in our interview on the 21st. 

Q Did you indicate to him that that conversation 
should be kept confidential, or the fact that you were 
doing an inquiry should be kept confidential, or anything to 
that effect? 

A I don't recall that I did. 

Q Okay. Now Mr. McFarlane called you, I believe, 
three or four days later to inquire--after this all became 
public, to inquire whether he was a subject of an investiga- 
tion? Whether his phones were surveilled? 

A Yes. This was, I think, sometime probably a week 
later and I don't remember — I have a vague recollection he 
may have been in London , but I am not sure . Or , maybe he 
was in this country. In any event, the London sticks in 
my memory, but I am not sure. In any event, he did call 
to ask whether, as I recall, whether he was either a subject 
of an investigation or whether his phones were tapped, 
sonvething like that. I think I made a note of that some 
place. But, there was some sort of conversation like that 
that I had with him. 

Q Did Mr. McFarlane indicate to you that he had 
spoken to Oliver North that day? 

A I don't recall whether he did or not. 
Q From — from let's say November — 



flMAi JVSSIIJEII 



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A Let me say there was another meeting with Mr. 
North on the 2 4th of November. 

Q You mean McFarlane? 

MR. BOLTON: McFarlane. 

THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Another meeting 
with McFarlane on the 24th. Excuse me. 
BY MS , NAUGHTON : 

Q From November 14th of 1986 through, let's say, 
the 2 5th when you made your announcement, did you advise 
anyone ^n the United States Government or outside the 
United States Government to get an attorney? 

A No. Not that I can recall. 

Q Do you know whether or not anyone at the Department 
of Justice advised Oliver North, John Poindexter, or any 
of the people involved in this to obtain counsel? 

A Not that I know of, that I recall now. 

Q And you didn't instruct anyone to relay this 
message? 

A No, I did not. Not that I can recall. And I 
doubt if I would. 

Q Your chronology shows that at 6:55 you spoke 
to Secretary Weinberger or placed a call to him. 

A This is on what day? 

Q We are still on the 21st. 



A Okay. 



105 



U'^OKlliSPT 



104 



"=LK #3 1 Q There was another call the next day, and apparently 

l"! 2 another call on Monday. If we could lump these calls 

3 together while we are on Weinberger, you spoke to him, 

4 I gather, very briefly about these matters. What was his 

5 general state of knowledge or position on the matters at 

6 hand? 

7 A Well, I talked to Mr. Weinberger on the 21st to 

8 try to arrange to meet with him. He told me then that 

9 he'd be glad to meet with me, wanted to cooperate. i told 

10 him why H wanted to meet with him, that the President, had 

11 asked me to do this. He said he would be glad to cooperate 

12 and this was really more to alert him to what the President 

13 asked me to do. He said he would be glad to talk the next 

14 day, but his wife was going to be in the hospital and he 

15 would probably be available at the hospital, as I recall. 

16 Then the next day, I think that I called him 

17 either at the hospital or at home, but I tracked him down 
19 somewhere and got him; and talked with him generally about 

19 this, as to what he might know and determined that he 

20 really didn't have any information that would be paricularly 

21 helpful, and he didn't really know any more about this than 

22 ^ already knew that he knew, and generally decided I would 

23 "°t meet with him on Saturday, that we would talk about it 

24 later on. 

25 Q Did he tell you whether or not he knew in November 



106 



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of 1985 about the Hawk shipment? 

A I don't recall whether that came up in the 
conversation or not. 

Q Well, okay. If you didn't discuss that, or if 
you can't recall discussing that, what made you think 
he wouldn't be helpful in the inquiry? 

A Well, I can't remember, but I just do remember 
that it didn't appear to me important to interview him 
any further, that he didn't have much information about it, 
and I think my best recollection, or best guess, really 
is that he said all he knew about the whole thing was he 
had given the orders for the Army to transfer the weapons 
that were the replenishments at various points and that he 
had not been more involved than that. That's my best 
recollection, but I don't remember the specific conversation 

In any event, I do know that it caused me to 
think that it would be less important to talk with him 
than some of the other people, that he didn't have very 
much information. 

Q On Monday then, the 24th, once you learned that 
there had been a diversion of money to the contras, did you 
ask Secretary Weinberger if he had knowledge about that? 

A I probably did. I don't remember specifically 
asking him, but I may — I may well have. I'm not sure when 
I talked with him that day. 



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UlYDDBSFIgaET 



106 



Q I gather your response is in the negative. 

A The response would be in the negative. 

Q And then at 7:05, still on Friday, the 21st, 
you spoke to Director Casey. 

A Yes. 

Q What did you discuss with Mr. Casey? 

A I think probably telling him what the President 
asked me to do and saying that I wanted to get together 
with him sometime over the weekend. What I was basically 
doing w^s letting these people know what the President was 
asking me to do. They would be hearing about these 
activities and I wanted to let them know why I was doing 
these things. By then, I had covered all the members 
of the NSC basically. 

Q Did you discuss with him the McFarlane interview, 
what Mr. McFarlane said? 

A No. I don't believe so. I think it was a very 
brief call. 

Q Now, on the 22nd of November, you had a meeting 
with Secretary Shultz in the morning? 

A Right. 

Q Did they actually show you the note that Mr. 
Hill had prepared? 

A I don't think so, but I'm not positive. Mr. 
Cooper probably would be better able to tell us 'that. 



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107 

Q Did you, independent of Mr. Cooper, take notes? 
A No. Mr. Cooper took the notes. Let me just-- 

MR. LEON: I have an exhibit here. CJC 17. 

THE WITNESS: Let me take a look at that. 

MR. BOLTON: That's redacted. 

MR. LEON: Yes. A redacted version. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. This is— this is the 



notei 



MR. LEON: That is the note Mr. Cooper got 
Monday ijiorning when he went over to see Sofaer and Hill. 
The question is whether or not they produced it Saturday 
morning to show you as well. 

THE WITNESS: He got this the following Monday? 

I don't think it was produced on that Saturday morning. My 

best recollection is it was not produced. I think actually 

— I am not sure Charlie Allen— I mean Charlie Hill — I think 

that's it. Mr. Hill, in any event, that he had it with him 

at- the time. I'm not sure. My best recollection is 

that he did not have it with him. I'm not sure. In any 

event, we did get it later on. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q At 9:55, the records indicate you spoke again to 

Mr. Casey? 

A Yes. 

» 
Q Do you recall what that was about? 



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A No, I don't. Except it may have been I was going 
to get together with him later in the day or something. 

Q Was he at home or at the office? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Did you discuss the Shultz interview? 

A I don't recall whether 1 did or not. i may have 
told him that I had just talked with George Shultz, but I 
probably didn't discuss it in any detail. 

Q Sometime mid-morning, then, you met with Mr. 
Cooper and Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson? 

A Yes. At approximately 10 o'clock. 

Q And arrangements were made for them to go to the 
National Security Council offices for them to examine 
records? 

A Right. 

Q What were they looking for? 

A Basically to look at whatever documents were there 
pertaining to the Iranian initiative so we could use that to 
develop a chronology or a coherent account, an overview of 
what had taken place. 

Q You had chronologies from the NSC? 

A We had chronologies, but it was a matter of 
now talking with all the people who had knowledge. I wanted 
to be sure we looked at the documents that might add to the 
overall review of the matter. • 



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Q When you discussed the review, prior to the 
review, were there any specific areas that you wanted to 
focus on or documents you wanted to look for? 

A No. Just in order to be complete, just so we 
were talking with each of the people that might have infor- 
mation, we wanted to see whatever documents there might be 
also. 

Q So you didn't focus, for instance, on the Hawk 
shipment? I 

A J No. It was to look at all the documents pertaininq 
to the Iranian initiative. 

Q Did you speak with Mr. Poindexter that morning? 

A My notes show that I did. My notes, the chronologj 
shows that Mr. Cooper called Mr. Thompson at the NSC at 
10:40, and that I called Mr. Poindexter at 10:45. 

Q Do you recall what you told him? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Did you interview Judge Sporkin in the morning 
or in the afternoon on Saturday? 

A I believe that we interviewed him at 11:10 a.m., 
according to the reconstruction of the time here. 

Q Do you have an independent recollection of that? 

A My recollection is that we did call him in the 
morning, that I called him in the morning and he said he 
could come down very shortly and that he did come in a little 



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after 11:00 and my recollection is definite that we 
interviewed him before lunch and that lunch was fairly late 
that day. • . ; i . 

Q Now, Judge Sporkin obiously told you about the 

November 1985 finding during that interview? 

A Yes. . , . - 

Q Was this the first you had learned of the November 
1985 finding? 

A I don't know whether I had heard about it before, 
but I knpw he went into a great deal of information about 
it. 

Q Did he tell you why he never told you about it 
when you were preparing the January finding? 

A No. Not that I recall. 

Q Did you ever ask him? 

A No, not that I recall. 

Q If we can skip to lunch, after the Sporkin 
interview, at the Old Ebbitt, apparently you met at lunch 
with Mr. Cooper, Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Richardson? 

A Right. 

There was some brief discussion of events, and 
then Mr. Reynolds described to you this document which 
has become known as the diversion memo? 

A Right . 

Q Do you recall how he told you about it? in other 



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words, what he said he had found and where he had found it? 

A I can't recall specifically, but my general 
recollection is that they had found a memorandum describing 
the Iranian initiative which included a plan to divert 
excess funds from the Iran transaction to support of the 
contras in Nicaragua. 

And I don't recall specifically whether he said where 
he found it, or in whose files. I have a vague recollection 
he may have told me he found it in Colonel North's files, 
or from Colonel North, but I can't be specific on that. 

Q Do you recall what your reaction was? 

A I was quite surprised. 

Q Do you recall what the reaction of the others 
around the table was? 

A I think everybody was quite surprised, except 
I think Mr. Richardson knew about it because he had been 
with Mr. Reynolds. Mr. Cooper and I were quite surprised. 

Q Was it established at that lunch, was it clear in 
your mind, that Colonel North had written it, or was that 
still a question? 

A No. I don't think we knew — my best recollection 
is we didn't know who had written it. That's why I am not 
sure it was found in Colonel North's files or in some other 
files. 

Q Did you inquire of Mr. Reynolds whether there was 



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a. cover memo? 

A I don't believe I inquired that of him. i can't 

recall exactly the conversation. 

Q After — 

A Because I doubt if I did, but I can't be sure 
because at that point I had not seen the memo. I don't thin 
it was until later that I saw the memo. 

Q After you heard of the memo — 

A I don't think — do you remember whether I saw the 
memo, Steve? 

MR. MATTHEWS: The best indication that we have 



got — 



Sunday. 



THE WITNESS: Okay. 

MR. MATTHEWS: That would be the 2 3rd, the 



THE WITNESS: Yes. 
It appears — it appears he may have brought a 
copy of the memorandum with him, in which case, I would have 
seen it. 

MR. MATTHEWS: This is the 2 3rd. 

THE WITNESS: Oh, I am sorry. It appears the 
first time I saw the memorandum was on the 2 3rd, on Sunday. 

MR. LEON: Mr. Cooper testified, generally, 
that when you were interviewing North and showed him the 
diversion memo, he inquired of you whether you had found a 



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113 I 

cover memo. You said, "Why, should we have" or words to 
that effect. 

THE WITNESS: I believe that's correct. I 
know that happened there. That's why I don't think I asked 
that question of Mr. Cooper at lunch on the 22nd. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q After you found out that this memo existed and 
there was a possibility funds were diverted to the contras, 
did that change your strategy regarding the inquiry? 

A J It didn't basically change our strategy. It added 
another item of inquiry to it, but — because I had basically 
plamned to ask Colonel North to come in anyway as the next 
person; and, of course, we did ask him to come in on the 
Sunday. I called him on the afternoon of Saturday, the 
22nd, asked if he could come in on Sunday morning. He 
said that, to the best of my recollection, he said he 
usually went to church with his family on Sunday morning, 
would it b« all right if he came in in the afternoon. I 
said yes and we established 2 o'clock as the time he would 
come in. ... 

Q Has it discussed that he would be wanted for a 
interview on Saturday afternoon? In other words, did you 
want to speak to him right away? Or did you first ask him 
about Sunday morning? 

A I can't recall specifically, but — whether I was 



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asking hiin whether he would be available that afternoon, but 
I think I probably asked him to come in Sunday morning. 
I can't be sure. 

Q Did Mr. Reynolds tell you whether or not he had 

discovered any other drafts of the memo? 

A Oh. Excuse me for one thing. I probably did ask 
him to come m on Sunday morning rather than Saturday 
afternoon because Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson were still 
conducting their review of the documents at the NSC, and i 
wanted to get that completed first before we talked to Mr. 
North. So, I'm almost positive that it was my suggestion 
he come in on Sunday morning at the earliest. I mean, 
that was the earliest time that I thought would be 
appropriate. Excuse me. Go ahead. 

Q Did Mr. Reynolds tell you whether or not there 
were other versions of the memo? 

A He did at some point. Whether it was then, or 
whether it was Sunday morning, I'm not sure. But, he did 
tell me there were other versions of a similar memo that 
did not have the references to a plan for diversion of funds 

Q Did you have copies of those? Did he obtain 
copies? 

A I don't remember. I'm sure he did obtain them, 
or I guess he did obtain them. I don't remember ever seeing 
them. I did see the memorandum that had the pl^n for a 



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diversion in it. 

Q Were you aware that Oliver North was present 
while Mr. Richardson and Mr. Reynolds were reviewing 
docu-Tients? 

A I think they told me that he had been in and out 
of the office, I think is the way it was described to me. 
THE WITNESS: I have just been advised it is 
getting towards 12:30. I have somebody coming in at 12:30. 
Why don't we kind of come to a logical stopping point in the 
next two, or three minutes. 

MS. NAUGHTON; Certainly. I am about at that 
point. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Did either Mr. Reynolds or Mr. Richardson tell you 
that Oliver North told them that he had an attorney? 

A I don't recall that now — that they said that. 

Q Were you aware at any point prior to Monday the 
24th that Oliver North had consulted with an attorney? 

A Not to the best of my recollection, no. And I'm 
almost positive they did not tell me that. No one told me 
that or that we had any information. I don't think any of 
us had any information that he had an attorney on Sunday 
because, if we had, we would have been compelled, I think, 

probably to talk with his attorney. It's just the normal 

« 
reaction any lawyer would have. ' • 



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Q Once the diversion memo was found, did you discuss 
possible leaks of that information? 

A Leaks? 

Q Leaks or what other parties would know about it? 

A I don't remember whether we did. We may have. 

Q Mr. Casey called you, I believe, that afternoon 
about 3:46? 

A Ye s . 

Q Do you recall what you discussed? 

A ^ I think he said he had some things that he wanted 
to discuss with me. I agreed to meet him at his home that 
evening sometime at or after 5 o'clock. Mr. Casey lives 
over near where I do, and I said that I would drop in on 
my way home . 

Q So, that conversation was just to set up — 

A Yes. The meeting that night. 

Q Did you ever actually sit down and interview Mr. 
Casey as you had with Shultz and McFarlane? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Well, I was planning to do that. We did have a 
conversation in which he told me some things on Saturday 
night. I knew basically — I had heard him from the meeting 
on the 20th, generally, what he knew, of course, he had 
testified. And I had planned really over the cdurse of the 



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next period of time to talk with him, I think, in the sense 
that the finding of the so-called diversion memo short 
circuited that because I wanted to find out whether there 
was any truth to it, which is what we did on Sunday, and 
then to talk to the President about it, which is what we 
did on Monday. So that, in a s^nse, that — what would have 
been a normal discussion with Cqhers in the same sense that 
we had was cut short, in a sense, by trying to get — by 
finding this and then wanting to be sure that this was 
brought to the attention of the President. 

Q So, I gather your testimony was that you had 
planned on doing it, but events — 

A Well, I had in mind talking to Casey at greater 
length, yes, as I had with all of these people, to get 
whatever additional information they had. But the best of 
my information, of Mr. Casey's part, I already knew, 
generally, what he knew based upon his testimony and the 
memorandum that we saw on Thursday; whereas, I had not 
gotten the seune kind of detailed information, for example, 
from Mr. McFarlane, Mr. Sporkin, Mr. North. 

Q From the McFarlane interview, Sporkin, and from 
what you indicated before, Mr. Cooper was there sort of 
to take notes? You didn't- take notes? 

A That's right. I did not take notes. 

Q Was that your general plan to have a nbtetaker 






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With you? 

A Yes. I wanted somebody other than myself to 
take notes. 

Q Why was that? 

A Oh, so I could ask the questions. 
Q Okay. So, you didn't take any notes of any 
interviews throughout the whole weekend? 

A Not that I can recall. I doubt if i did. 

MS. NAUGHTON: This might be a convenient stop. 
) THE WITNESS: Very good. We will see you all 
in one hour. 

(Recess at 12:30 to reconvene at 1:30 p.m.) 



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1:45 p.m. 

»4 



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119 

AFTERNOON SESSION 
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
(Continued) 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q We are back on the record. 

Let the record reflect it is about 1:47. 
We were around the date of Saturday, November 22nd. 
I had one question relating to Friday. After you sat down 
with Mr. Cooper, Mr. Richardson, Mr. Reynolds and had sort of a 
game plan,' if you will, of people to be interviewed and' 
documents that you wanted to review, why didn't you send 
someone over on Friday to review documents at the NSC? 

A I think the idea was we wanted to do it the next 
morning. We had a number of things to do on that afternoon 
and there was no particular urgency to it. 

So it was just a matter of going through those things. 
Q What were Mr. Richardson and Mr. Reynolds to do then 
on Friday afternoon? 

A As a matter of fact, I don't think at that point we 
had even determined it would be Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson. 
I think we probably determined that on Saturday morning as we 
apportioned out tasks that day. They were to review the 
documents and develop — get selected documents that might be 
useful in providing information to prepare an overview of the 
activities that went on and to know what documents there were. 



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120 

I think it was anticipated that there would 
probably be inquiries from Congress and it was to be sure 
that we knew what documents were available and what kinds 
of documents there were, particularly anything that would 
give a sense of particular dates or other things that, other 
people tnat we ought to talk to and so on, just so we had a 
basic documentary background for the fact-finding we were 
doing. 

Q So the answer to my question as to why this wasn't 
done starting Friday afternoon — 



A I Was [t here /was no urgency to it. I think we were 
doing other things to prepare that afternoon. The idea was — 
I am not sure what Mr. Cooper — Mr. Cooper was working with 
me and Mr. McFarlane. I don't know what the others were 
doing. They had other things to do in their normal duties. 

Saturday seemed like a good day since they wouldn't 
have their normal round of appointments. 

Q Skipping back to Sunday evening, I guess around 
6:00 p.m. or so, you went to Mr. Casey's home. 

A No. That would be Saturday evening. 

Q Yes. Saturday evening. I am sorry. 

A You said Sunday. 

Q Okay . 

At Mr. Casey's house, do you recall how long that 



visit lasted? 



UNCLASSIE^EE) 



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1 A I would say it was probably an hour perhaps. i 

2 may have some notes on that. 

3 Do we have any notes relating to that? 

•4 ''■' ' I don't think we do. Or testimony as to that. 

5 ••'•' • MR. MATTHEWS: I don't recall any. There may be a 

6 notation on a log. ■ . ^- !. 
7'' ' "• THE WITNESS: All right. Go ahead. 

8 BY MS. NAUGHTON: v 

9 - Q Who else was at Mr. Casey's home? 

10 A . If I remember correctly, I think his son-in-law 

11 was there and possibly his daughter and also his wife were 

12 there. Not in the room while we were talking, but they were 

13 there in the house. I saw them at that time. 

14 Q Other than family members, was there anyone from 

15 the U.S. Government? 

16 A Not to my recollection, no. 

17 Q When you spoke to him, did you speak to him alone or 

18 in the presence of his family? 

19 A No. I met with Mr. Casey by himself. 

20 Q Was this recorded in any way? 

21 A No. No. It was a very informal conversation. 

22 Q And what did Mr. Casey want to speak with you about? 

23 A Well, he told me that he had had a contact with a maO 

24 by the name of Furmark, who was a former business associate 

25 of his, or someone he had kno%m through business and he told 



UJIIfiU&£JPf?A 



123 



122 



1 me that Mr. Furmark had come to him about a month earlier, 

2 that he had told him that there were some people, apparently 

3 Canadians, who had somehow put up some money for the 

4 bridging financing of the Iranian initiative or the arms 

5 transactions and that they had not been paid back all of 

6 their money and that they were threatening to go public with 

7 it and, therefore, expose the whole Iranian operation. 

8 Mr. Furmark had come to him before this became 

9 public. 

10 Q 9o he came to him sometime in October then? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Did Mr. Casey explain to you why he waited until 

13 now to tell you about that? 

14 A Well, there was no reason to tell me about it. It 

15 was just at that point that I was getting into this fact- 

16 finding and he felt this was something I ought to know, so 

17 that I would have all the facts as the President had asked me 

18 to. 

19 Q Did Mr. Casey also mention that Mr. Furmark had 

20 told him that he suspected or that others suspected some of 

21 the profits from the Iramian arms sales went to the contras 

22 i-n Nicaragua? 

23 A I 2un trying to remember. He told me that, if I 

24 remember correctly, that Mr. Furmark had told him that if they 

25 were not paid, the Canadians would claim that money from the 



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CAS-5 1 Iran arms transaction, presumably the money they were supposed 

2 to get had been used instead for what I believe he 

3 described as Israeli or United States Government projects. 

4 Q And was he specific? ' 

5 A I don't believe he was specific. I am sure that he 

6 did not mention anything about Central America, but I tmnk it 

7 was a matter of — I think the description, if I recall 

8 correctly, was United States and Israel Government projects. 

9 Q And that is what Mr. Casey is relating to you? 

10 A ,Yes. 

11 Q Did Mr. Casey then discuss with you whether — 

12 A And he said they were doing that in order to put 

13 pressure on the United States to make up the difference in 

14 the money that they had not been paid. 

15 Q Did Mr. Casey then relate to you that one of these 

16 projects might be funds to the contras? 

17 A No. That did not come up during that conversation. 

18 - Q Is your testimony then that there was no 

19 discussion of contras or the Nicaraguan resistance with 

20 Mr. Casey on Saturday evening? 

21 A I don't believe that came up, no. 

22 Q Do you know what Director Casey's relationship 

23 was with Oliver North? 

24 A No, I don't. Other than just — I really don't 

25 know how closely or — how closely or remotely they happened 



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to work together. 

Q Did Mr. Casey ever discuss Colonel North with you? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did Director Casey make any reference at all, not 
just in this conversation, but in any conversation you have 
had with him, to any directions he had given Colonel North 
regarding the destruction or shredding or altering of any 
documents? 

A No. I have never had any discussion with Mr. Casey 
about that, 

Q Now, on Sunday, you spoke to Mr. Casey again in the 
morning. Do you recall what that was about? 

A I don't recall talking with him on Sunday. And 
I don't see any notations that I did. 

Q I have one other question — 

A Wait a minute. Here it is. Yes. I did talk 
with him, as a matter of fact, on the 23rd of November, 
because I ■•• a note here. I talked with him at 10:10 
approximately. 

And I think that we were interested in the names of 
CIA people who might have been involved in any of these 
transactions. And he said that he would make available 
the names of Americans and foreign persons except those still 
involved in operations, presumably operations within Iran, 
and he said those we could identify on a person-by-person 



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125 



1 basis if they really became important. 

2 Q Now, on Saturday, either on Saturday evening, when 

3 you spoke to Mr. Casey, or Sunday morning, did you tell him 
* about the diversion memo? 

5 A When I talked with Mr. Casey on the 22nd? 

6 Q Saturday/ 

7 A NO, I did not. 

8 Q Why not? 

9 A Well, for one thing, I didn't know what we had 

10 at that t4.me, because we had not — we just had the memo. 

11 We had not verified whether there was anything to it. Also, 

12 I guess it is just a natural lawyer's instinct not to talk 

13 about anything until we had more or to talk about any 

14 of the people that I might be talking with later on about this. 

15 Q Well, you spoke to Mr. Poindexter and Mr. Regan, 

16 Mr. Bush, and others on Monday morning about it. 

17 A Well, but that was after I had talked with 

18 Colonel North and knew what — in fact, that there had been 

19 such a thing. 

20 Q When did you first then discuss the diversion 

21 situation, the memo and the diversion itself with Director 

22 Casey? 

23 A I believe it was on Tuesday morning when he called 

24 me about 6:30 just as I was leaving the house and asked if I 

25 would come by his house on my way to work, which I did. 



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Q And he heard about it from whom? 

A He heard about it, I believe, from Don Regan the 
previous evening, I believe. 

Q And if we can jump ahead then to that conversation, 
what did he know of it or what were his comments about it? 

A Well, he had heard from Don Regan that there had been 
a diversion and that Poindexter was planning to resign and 
that Don Regan felt that Poindexter should resign 
immediately and probably — I don't know whether North was 
discussed, too, or not. 

Q So I take it you gathered from your conversation 
with Mr. Casey on Tuesday morning that the diversion was 
news to him? He was learning it for the first time? 

A Yes. I felt, and certainly in our conversation on 
Saturday night, there was no indication that he knew 
anything about it and I later learned that when — that 
after he had gotten the Furmark information, that he had 
talked with Poindexter and possibly North, I am not sure, 
about this whole matter and that they had assured him there 
was nothing to it. 

Q Do you recall when he might have spoken to Admiral 
Poindexter and Colonel North about that? 

A No. I think this was contained in some documents 
that Mr. Casey had that I saw later on. 

Q These were documents sent over from the fciA? 



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A Sent over from CIA, right. 

Q Do you recall were they handwritten notes or 
memoranda? 

A I think they were memoranda. We have them. I think 
they were memoranda. We have them. I think they were typed 
memoranda. 

Q I cun going to ask the reporter to mark a 
dociiment as Exhibit number 1. 

(Exhibit EM-1 was marked for identification.) 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Did you recover the CIA — 

A I have here the documents which you have copies 
here including a letter to me dated the 2Sth of November, 
1986, from Bill Casey and enclosing an undated memorandum 
to Join Poindexter which is not signed by Mr. Casey, a 
memorandum for the Director and Deputy Director of 
Central Intalligenca from Charles Allen dated the 7th of 
Novenb«r, entitled "Meeting with Roy M. Furmark", and a 
meaorandun dated the 17th of October 1986 to the Director and 
Deputy Director of Central Intelligence from Charles Allen, 
subject, "Ghorbanifar^^^^^^^Khannel" , and other documents 
relating — dated — memorandum -- memoranda to the DCI 
and DDCI dated the 14th of October regarding problems with 
the Iranian initiative. 

Q It 



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A You have copies of these, I believe. 
MR. BOLTON: Yes. 

MS. NAUGHTON: I don't know we have a full set. 
MR. BOLTON: If you by any chance don't have 
them, they are with the Independent Counsel or still in the 
redaction process. They can and will be produced. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Showing you what has been marked as Exhibit EM-1, 
are these your notes? 

A I^o. These were not mine. 
Q That is my first question. 
A Oh. 

Q These are notes that I took from a file sent to the 
committee from — marked from the Attorney General's files? 
A I have no idea who these are. 

MR. BOLTON: It is entirely possible there would be 
notes produced from the Attorney General's files that were not 
in his handwriting. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Do you know whose handwriting that is? 
A No, I have no idea. 

Q The subject matter on the memo obviously is dated — 
or on the notes is dated November 25th? 
A Yes. 
Q Talking about some of the matters at han3? 



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A It says, "notes from Tuesday a.m., look through 
Poindexter and Thompson — " -- that is "Poin", p-o-i-n, 
slash, "Thomp", t-h-o-m-p, "files dated the 25th of November". 
Q What I would like you to direct your attention to is 
the third dash. It says, "Ollie memo, mid file, Ollie brought 
over last night". 

Is that a reference that Oliver North was — was 
brought over to the Department of Justice? 

A I have no idea. I have never seen this before, to 
my knowledge. 

Q If I could direct your attention to page 2? 

A Yes. 

Q It says there, "Casey said told 14 September". 

Do you know what that is a reference to? 
A No. 
Q ThanJc you. 

After you had discovered or your people had discovere 
the diversion memo, did you call Admiral Poindexter or did you 
attempt to try to call him? 

A Excuse me. One question. When we get the 
transcript back to look at it, since this will be an exhibit 
it is included, will this be included with the transcript? 
Q It should be. 

A Then we don't have to make a copy now. 
MR. MATTHEWS: It is in the file. 



SiNCLASSIFSFn 



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UltOA^ESKET 



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CAS-12 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. 

2 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

3 - Q Did you attempt to speak to Admiral Poindexter 
^ after discovering the diversion memorandum or -- 

5 A On? 

6 Q Saturday night or Sunday? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Is there any reason why not? 

9 A No. None that I can remember. 

10 ;i think by the time we were through on Sunday, 

11 it was fairly late in the evening, seven o'clock or 

12 eight o'clock, thereabouts. And on Monday, my main interest 

13 was in advising the President of this whole situation. 

14 Q Did you see — during that weakened inquiry, did 

15 you see any other documents taken by Mr. Reynolds or 

16 Mr. Richardson from the National Security Council offices 

17 other than the diversion memo? 

18 A I don't recall whether I did or not on Sunday, 

19 whether I saw amy. 

20 Q Do you recall seeing any other on Monday? 

21 A Or on Monday. 

22 Q When Oliver North showed up at the Department of 

23 Justice around 2:15 on Sunday afternoon, he was alone, 

24 I take it; is that correct? 
25 



A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFe. 



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Q Did he say he had retained an attorney or consulted 
with an attorney? 

A I don't have any recollection that he did, no. 

Q Did anyone in the room ask him if he had an attorney; 

A No. Not to my recollection. I doubt if they did. 

Q Did you take any notes of that interview? 

A No. Not that I recall. 

Q What do you recall Oliver North telling you about 
the November Hawk shipment? 

Jn other words, let me make my question more . 
pointed and save some time. Did he indicate that he knew 
at the time the missiles were shipped that they indeed were 
Hawk missiles in November of 1985 or did he stick with the 
oil drilling story? 

A What he told me was that he learned of a shipment 
from Israel to Iran, that Israeli officials contacted 
McFarlane and said it was important to the Iranian initiative 
that a shipment of oil drilling equipment be completed. He 
said h« w«« asked by McFarlane to assist with landing 
rights and Customs ^^^^^Hand was obtaining air transport 
for Israel. North said— and this was — to answer your 
question specifically. North said that Secord later told him 
the shipment was Hawk missiles not oil drilling equipment. 

Q Did Mr. — Mr. Cooper testified that North then 
added he suspected it wasn't oil drilling equipment but he 



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could pass a lie detector on that question. Do you recall 
him saying that? 

-A He may have. I don't specifically recall it at 
this time. I am looking at the notes that were taken 
contemporaneously. I don't see anything here. 

Q I don't think there is a reference to it. 

A I see the notes here that say that North was told 
it was oil drilling equipment. He said I wondered if it was 
not. This is what he said. 

But he first knew that it was not from Secord. 

Q Now, can you tell us how you presented the question 
of the diversion of the monies to the contras? 

A Say that again. 

Q How you presented that? How you began to question 
him on that? 

A Yes. Again, if I may, I will — I will make 
reference to these notes here. 

Q For the record, those are Mr. Richardson's notes? 

A Mr. Richardson's notes. 

Okay. I showed him a memorandum and asked if it 
was something that he had prepared. And I mentioned that 
it is — in terms of reference, it was dated some time in 
April of 1986. And that it was with reference to the Iranian 
initiative and that it had talked about on the 13th of September' 
with the endorsement of the U.S. Government the Israelis 



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133 

transferred 508 TOWs and he told me that he didn't know who 
had prepared the memo. 

He thinks that it may — well, I am not sure now at 
this point whether he — no, I am sorry. Strike that. 

Let me go back. When I mentioned 508 TOWs. 

There was a discussion of who had given the endorse- 
ment of the U.S. Government and he said he didn't know who did 
it. 

He thought it was McFarlane baaed on a general 
J 
understanding from Ronald Reagan, President Reagan, and then 

at that point, Z said there is some who have a concern to 

protect the President, but we need to know the facts. And 

then he said something about everyone that he had talked to 

in the Israeli Government, Peres, Rabin,] 

said that it was at the U.S. request. 

But they did not get that information from North. 
And then thsre was a discussion generally of who authorized 
this and th«n I went back and, anyway, we had talked about 
th« msno generally and what it contained, about the Iranian 
initiative generally. 

Then I said, now, referring your attention back to 
the memo, it appears to have been written between the fourth 
and seventh of April and mentions .the use of the money being 
transferred to the contras, and asked him — and then asked 
him what h« 




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And at that point, he was visibly surprised that 
the memo had that proposal for the transfer of funds to the 
contras in it and it was at that time that we then went into 
the details of this and he explained about these transactions. 

Q When you say "visibly surprised", did he say 
anything or was that just from his expression? 

A I think just from his expression generally and 
demeanor . 

Q Did he ask if there was — if you had found a 
cover memo? 

A I think at one point, and again I am going to — 
I think he was asked if the President had approved this or 
if the President had seen this, something to that effect, 
and he says, was there a cover memo on it. Or did you find a 
cover memorandum or something like that. 

And I can't remember exactly the conversation, but 
I believe Mr. Reynolds may have indicated that they did not — 
that there was no other cover memo with it. 

And then there was a discussion about, well, if the 
President okays something, does it go into the working 
files of the NSC, and either he said that or he was asked 
that question, according to the notes, and then I said, 
according to these notes, if the President approved it, 
you would have it, wouldn't you? 



And 



(»ietA$SIF?f9 



think it was approved. 



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And then I asked if there were any other files over 
there, did they keep, for example, a file of approved 
presidential directives? And he said he didn't know. 

Q Did you ask him who else had seen the memo or had 
access to it? 

A I don't recall that being askeu at the time. 
Q Did you ask him if there was a cover memo? 
A It may have been. That may have been asked if 
there should have been a cover memo, and if so, I don't have 
any recollection he said there should have been. 

I think the reason being that this particular 
memorandum was obviously not a presidential decision memorandum 
and that is probably why he asked if there was a cover memo in 
the context of whether the President had seen it or approved 
it. 

Q Did he say it had been — the diversion had been 
approved by anyone? 

I am not talking about who might have known about it 
but approval. 
A Yes. 

I am trying to recall, and — I asked if it was 
discussed with Ronald Reagan and he said not by me, not by 
him. 

Then he said Poindexter is the point of contact with 



Ronald Reaga: 



imeiftssff^ 



that he did tell me that 



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CAS-18 1 Poindexter knew of it. I don't believe the question 

2 specifically -- of authorization came through, but he did 

3 say that -- he told me that three people — there were 

4 only three in the U.S. Government who coulci know about 

5 this, and that was McFanane, Poindexter, and North. 

6 Q What about outside the Government? Did he say that 

7 Mr. Secord was involved in the diversion of funds? 

8 A He did not say anything about Secord that I can 

9 recall in that context. He did say that certain Israelis 

10 knew about it. , 

11 Q And that would be Mr. Nir, or others? 

12 A I believe it was Mr. Nir, but I am not positive. 

13 Q All right. And did he say that Albert Hakim knew 

14 of the diversion? 

J 15 A That name did not come up to my recollection in the 

16 conversation at all. 

17 Q But to skip for a minute, did you learn on Monday 

18 that Tom Gre«n, the attorney who spoke to Mr. Reynolds, 

19 and Mr. Cooper had indicated that it was Mr. Hakim's idea 

20 to divert the funds to the contras? 

21 A I don't believe I learned of that, because I 

22 didn't have time to go into those details with Mr. Reynolds 

23 on Monday. 

24 He did tell me that Mr. Green had talked to him, but 

25 



I don't — 



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Q At any rate, were you aware that Mr. Green knew of 
the diversion on Monday? That they had spoken about it? 

A I don't know all of the details of that conversation 
that Mr. Green had with Mr. Reynolds. Mr. Reynolds told 
me that they — that Mr. Green had talked to him and the 
basic points of that conversation was that there was nothing 
particularly new in what Mr. Green had told Mr. Reynolds 
that would be helpful to me as I was going through this 
thing on Monday. 

Q l4id Mr. Green serve as a confirmation that th6 
diversion had taken place? 

A I don't know. You would have to ask Mr. Reynolds 
that. My conversations with him were very brief about the 
whole thing. 

Basically, Green's conversation with him added 
nothing particularly new that I would need as I was pursuing 
the various things I was doing on that Monday. 

Q Now, when Oliver North — 

A Let me go back, if I may, as to the diversion. What 
North did say was CIA had no knowledge of the diversion. He 
did say that no other U.S. officials were involved other 
than the ones mentioned. No other U.S. officials were 
involved besides himself, that McFarlane and Poindexter 
were knowledgable and that among the Israelis it was Nir 



involved, p 



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Q Did he indicate whether anyone at Southern Air 
Transport knew, since Southern Air was involved in both the 
Iranian arms shipments and the contra resupply efforts? 

A I don't have any recollection that he discussed 
Southern Air Transport at all. 

Q When Colonel North mentioned Mr. Secord as being 
involved, is that the first you had heard of Secord 's 
involvement? 

A Yes. When he mentioned that he had been involved 
in the Hawk missile situation in November and he 
described how he got involved by savina that he was a friend 
of his and when he needed someone to work on this overseas, 
aooarentlv Secord was in Eurooe . that he asked Secord to do 
it. 

Q And were vou aware at that time that General Secord 
had b.->en investigated bv the Deoartment of Justice in the 
Edwin Wilson case? 

A I think I had a general recollection of that nzune 
having been mentioned in some such context. I don't recall 
soecificallv that I knew of that at the time. It haooened 
incidentallv. at a time when I wasn't in the Justice Deoartment 

C I gather Oliver North did not mention that he ^^d 
altered anv documents during his interview with vou- is that 
correct? 



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Q And that he did not mention shredding any 
documents prior to the arrival of the Department of Justice 
team? 

A No. I am sure that was not discussed. 

Q After the interview was over, what was your opinion 
regarding whether he had been truthful with you? 

A After the interview, I had no reason to believe 
and did not have any reason — and did not believe that he 
had not been truthful. I felt he had been truthful with 
us. 

Q From — then from the time that the diversion memo 
was discovered and reported to you at lunch on Saturday, 
until you made the announcement at the Tuesday press 
conference, did you ever discuss with anyone whether on 
behalf of the Department of Justice or otherwise the 
possibility of keeping the diversion or the diversion memo 
quiet? 

A NO. 

Q Did you ever instruct anybody not to disclose that 
information? 

A Not that I can recall. 

Q Did Mr. Cooper tell you that Judge Sofaer had 
called him on Sunday evening and expressed to him that 
Judge Sofaer had a concern ediout the obvious over-pricing of 
the missit.9ftMHt|^(;[^q9#Fff'K3^rlthat maybe some of the monies 



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might have been used to support the contras, given the 
involvement of Southern Air Transport in both ventures? 

A I don't recall that — any conversation with 
Mr. Cooper on that. 

Q You don't recall Mr. Cooper telling you that? 

A I don't recall Mr. Cooper telling me that. 

Q The next morning, after a meeting here =t the 
Department of Justice, you spoke to Mr. McFarlane in your 
office; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you alone with him at that meeting? 

A I believe I was, yes. 

Q Did you take any notes? 

A No, I did not take any notes. 

Q Why not? 

A I don't know. No particular reason. I was 
primarily interested in finding out from Mr. McFarlane 
whether he knew of the diversion of funds to the contras 
and, if so, under what circumstances he knew; essentially 
to corroborate or compare what he knew with what Mr. North, 
Colonel North, had told me. My recollection is that what 
Mr. McFarlane said to me — and this was a rather hurried 
morning because I was trying to get this done so that I 
could get over to the White House, and I believe if I 
remember ctjAllii, AiiS:}£9£^iV^« ^n about 10:15, just 



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1 as r was en route to the White House. So I asked him whether 

2 he knew and my recollection is that he verified what 

3 Mr. McFarlane said that he had learned about it on the trip to 

4 Tehran. 

5 Q What Colonel North had said? 

6 A What Colonel North had said, that he had learned 

7 about it on the trip to Tehran from Colonel North and that that 

8 was essentially all he knew about it. 

9 Q Did you ask Mr. McFarlane who else was aware of it? 

10 A I don't recall whether I did or not. 

11 Q Did you ask him -- did you show him the memo, the 

12 diversion memo? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Why not? 

15 A I don't believe I did. I don't think I had the 

16 memo at that time. 

17 Q Did you ask Mr. McFarlane whether or not he knew if 

18 the President had been told of the diversion? 

19 A I don't recall whether I did or not. And I would — 

20 probably not, because it appeared that his knowledge was 

21 very limited of the whole thing. It was just limited to what 

22 Colonel North had told him on the trip to Tehran, where it 

23 was more or less incidental in the conversation there . 

24 Q Did you ask him why he didn't tell you this on 

25 Friday? 



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A No. I don't believe I did. It was a very hurried 
conversation, so I don't remember asking him that. 

Q Did he indicate to you in any way that he had spoken 

to Colonel North since? 

A No. I don't have any -- I don't recall that he 
did. I doubt j.f he did. 

Q When you went to the White House that morning, 
did you go straight to see the President or did you meet with 
anyone prior to that? 

A I believe I went directly — if I remember 
correctly, I was late — or I was -- it was very close. I 
was not there as early as I had planned, so I went directly 
to the meeting with the President and Don Regan, although I may 
have stopped by Don Regan's office first. I am not sure. 

Q So you may have spoken to Mr. Regan prior — just 
prior — 

A I may have spoken to Mr. Regan just prior to going 
to see the President. I am not sure. 

Q When you told the President about the diversion 
and Mr. North's confirmation, I gather Mr. Regan was present? 

A Yes. It was just Mr. Regan, the President and 
myself. 

Q Was that the first time that Mr. Regan had heard of 
it? 

A I believe so, although I may have mentioned it to 



!ii,^ve so, although I may 

IJlVCLASSlFED 



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14 3 

1 him before I saw the President, but I don't think so. i think 

2 when I talked to him and the President together, that was the 

3 first- he knew of it. 

4 As a matter of fact, the more I think about it, the 

5 more I think I went directly to the President's office and 
u that Mr. Regan met me there. But I am not absolutely 

7 positive. 

8 In any event, I believe the first time that I 

9 mentioned it to either Mr. Regan or the President was in the 

10 President' i office. 

11 Q Did yoiu take notes of this meeting? 

12 A No. 

13 Q Do you recall whether Mr. Regan or the President 

14 took notes of this meeting? 

15 A I doubt if either one did. Although Mr. Regan might 
15 have, but I doubt it. 

17 Q To the best of your recollection, what did you tell 

13 the Fresident? 

19 A I told the President we had gone through the fact- 

2Q finding process as I had indicated on Friday, that I had 

21 talked to the various people and that in the course of 

22 exeunining documents in the National Security Council staff 

23 offices on Saturday, we had come across a memorandum that 

24 included a plan for the diversion of excess funds from the 

25 sale of the weapons to Iran which were then diverted for the 



UNCIASSIF3ED 



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144 

1 use of the freedom fighters in Nicaragua and that I had 

2 talked with Ollie North and confirmed that, in fact, that 

3 had happened and had then — I believe I also told them I had 

4 also confirmed that -- Bud McFarlane knew about it from 

5 Colonel North. 

6 Q And what was the President's response? 

7 A Well, he was very much surprised. I would say 

8 shocked, as was Don Regan. 

9 Q Do you recall what he said, the President? 

10 A i can't remember exactly, but it was some 

11 expression of surprise. 

12 Q And did he ask you anything more about it? 

13 A Yes. We talked about it and the President — the 

14 President said what we have got to -- at that time, we got in 

15 there, I think we got in the office late. That is what 

16 makes me think — and the President had to leave at 11:30 

17 because he was having a meeting, I believe, with Chief 

18 Bhutaiezi from South Africa. 

19 So the meeting was terminated abruptly. I said, 

20 Mr. President, I have to do some more on this, because there 

21 were still other people to talk to. And I said I will 

22 come back to you this afternoon after the NSPG meeting, so 

23 that we can continue to discuss this, because I had just 

24 told him and the meeting had to be — very shortly after 

25 that, we had to decide what the next steps would be. 



ONClflSQir^m 



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Q Did Mr. Regan leave with the President or did you 
stay and speak to him? 

A " I don't remember. I think he and the President 
probably left together. 

Q And after you spoke to the President — 

A Although I may have stayed there awnile. I may 
have met with — no. I think I met with Mr. Regan later that 
afternoon rather than right then. 

Q Was there any discussion at the morning meeting 
with the President as to if this would become public or how it 
would become public or what the next step was to take? 

A No. I think that the idea was that we wanted to — 
well, in the morning, no. The idea was that we wanted to — 
there were more things I wanted to do, including finding out 
who else may have known about it, because I had not had a 
chance, for example, to talk to Admiral Poindexter. 

And then I said we would get back together in the 
afternoon, which we did. 

Q I gather then after the President and Mr. Regan 
left, you met with Admiral Poindexter; is that correct? 

A My recollection is that I met with Admiral Poindexter 
after the NSPG meeting in the afternoon euid before I met 
with the President. 

Q Okay. So after your meeting with the President, 

let's say it isp*lP}4^|^^Mt'f4f^f^llf^^V°" '^°^ 



mmmw 



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146 

1 A I think I came back here to the Department of Justic 

2 because my notes show -- my notes show that I came back here 

3 and met with -- or at least reconstruction of my notes, that 

4 I met with Mr. Reynolds, Mr. Cooper, Mr. Cribb, who had returne 

5 from vacation at that time, or whichever he had been, and 

6 Mr. Richardson at 12:30 p.m. 

7 Q After meeting with them, you went back to the White 

8 House? 

9 A No. I met with them at the White House — oh, 

10 yes, I wen^ back to the White House for a two o'clock meeting. 

11 Q So you did not confirm then that Admiral Poindexter 

12 knew of the diversion then until some time Monday 

13 afternoon? 

14 A Monday afternoon, right. 

15 Q And when you spoke to Admiral Poindexter about it, 
15 were you alone with him? 

17 A Yes. I was alone with him. 
13 Q Did you take notes of that? 
19 A No, I did not. 
2Q Q Do you recall if he took notes? 

21 A No, I don't believe he did. 

22 Q What did Admiral Poindexter tell you about — 

23 in response to your questions? 

24 A He said that Ollie North had given him enough 

25 hints of ^^^tatiM J^fin^olna on so that he should have 



ti^NCl"£^l?2£D 



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C-C- 

known or did know what was going on on the diversion, but 
he said he had not inquired further. 

Q Did you ask -- 

A Then he said that he had not told either the 
President or Don Regan and he said that he thought when this 
ill became public that he would probably have to resign. 

Q So then did you ask Admiral Poindexter if he had 
told the President about the diversion? 

A I asked him. Yes. I believe I asked him or he 
told me. I* asked him had he told anyone else or did anyone 
else know about it. And he said that he had not told the 
President or Regan. 

Q Did Admiral Poindexter indicate to you who 
authorized the diversion? 

A No. He did not say that anybody had authorized it, 

Q Did you get the impression from him that this was 
just Ollie operating on his own? 

A I got the impression that it was something that 
had happened which he knew about or had learned about and 
which he allowed then to go on. And then he indicated to me 
that at that point he said I knew when this beciune public 
that I would probably have to resign, not because there was 
anything wrong with it, as much as because of the political 
uproar it would cause. 

Q Did i'OUjafl.Jc him whether or not there was 'a cover 



^ou^sK mm wnecner or nc 



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memo or whether that diversion memo or any of its drafts had 
been seen by the President? 

A I don't believe that I did. I don't have any 
recollection of doing that. I asked him whether he had told 
the President or Regan about it or at least we had a 
conversation in which he said that he had not. 

Q Did you have the memo with you when you spoke to 
him? 

A No. That was being safeguarded over here, I think, 
by Mr. Reynolds. 

Q During your meeting a little earlier that day 
with Mr. Cooper and Mr. Richards and Mr. — Mr. Richards 
and Mr. Reynolds, did Mr. Cooper mention to you there was a 
rumor at the CIA that funds had been diverted to the 
contras? 

A I don't recall that. He may have. I don't recall 
it at this time. 

Q Would it refresh you to say that Mr. McGuiness, 
who works for Mr. Cooper, had spoken to someone at the CIA 
that morning and he had related to Mr. Cooper that that rumor 
was afloat at the CIA? 

A It is possible. I just don't recall at this time. 

Q When you were briefed — strike that. 

At two o'clock at the NSPG meeting, was there a 
discussion o^ 



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1 A Yes. There was a detailed discussion of which I 

2 took notes and have notes about that. 

3 Q Was the diversion mentioned? 

4 A No. - 

5 Q Why not? 

6 A Because I had not had a chance to discuss it further 

7 with the President. I did not mention it. I wanted to 

8 discuss it further with the President so we could determine 

9 what action to be taken. 

10 Q Do you recall when it is then that you spoke to the 

11 President? 

12 Was it after you spoke to Admiral Poindexter? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And so then it would be some time late afternoon 
^5 of Monday? 

^5 A It was late afternoon. I think it was some time 

^7 around 3:30, four o'clock. 

']g Q And what happened at that meeting? 

^g A At that meeting, we — I went back into it and told 

20 him more what I had learned, including the fact that I had now 

21 talked with Mr. Poindexter and that he had confirmed my 

22 information. 

23 Q And what was the President's response to that? 
2^ A And the President said — I believe it was that 
25 evening that it jm»^_ important that we get the facts out and 



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I think It was either that night or the next morning that 
he said -- I think it was that evening, because one of the 
things he had said the previous Friday was if I did find there 
was anything wrong at all, we wanted to be sure that that 
came out as quickly as possible. 

6 Q Okay. 

7 A And -- 

8 Q Do you recall, Mr. Meese, what was the rush on 

9 getting the word out? 

10 A Well, I think the main concern on Monday and then 

11 again the next morning was to get the facts out so that there 

12 would be no suspicion on anybody's part that we were trying to 

13 conceal the facts or that there was anything being done to 

14 cover it up and to get that out so that the Congress and the 

15 public would know that the Administration was — had itself 

16 discovered this and was getting the facts out to the public. 

17 Q Was there any discussion of the material, the 

18 information leaking before you could make your announcement? 

19 A I don't think there was any — I don't recall any 

20 specific discussion of it. The other things we talked about 

21 on Monday afternoon was the President asked or we had a 

22 discussion, I think he was raising it, as to whether 

23 Poindexter should be relieved from duty. I think the 

24 President suggested we think about it overnight emd get back 

25 together again at nine o'clock in the morning. And it was 

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^ 151 

1 at that time that I then met with Don Regan and we 

2 discussed this in further depth. He again said that he knew 

3 nothing about this and was very much concerned about it. 

4 And that I ought to -- and then I think we both 

5 agreed that I ought to also discuss it with the Vice President, 

6 who was very surprised about uhe whole thing. 

7 Q When you discussed Admiral Poindexter's resignation, 

8 was Mr. Regan in favor of his resigning? 

9 A I think that when we — I think there was no 

10 question thfat he felt that that would have to happen, yes. 

11 Q Did you feel likewise? 

12 A I think I did, yes. Let me — I don't remember 

13 whether I expressed it then to Mr. Regan or not, but I think 

14 that there was no question in either of our minds that that 

15 would be one of the things that the President would have to do 

16 the next morning. 

17 Q Along those same lines, was there a discussion on 

18 Tuesday that included Colonel North and what would happen 

19 regarding his future? 

20 A I don't recall on Tuesday now, the 25th, that I 

21 saw Colonel North or had any discussions with him on that 

22 day. There were discussions with him by other people. 

23 Q with whom? Do you know? 

24 A I don't know who talked with him. It may have 

25 been Don Regan. I have heard since that the President had a 



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telephone call to him. Whether it was that day or not, I am 
not sure. 

Q Do you know whether or not it was discussed 
whether or not Oliver North would be allowed to resign from 
the NSC as Admiral Poindexter had? 

A I have a vague recollection there was such a 
discussion probably on Tuesday morning and I don't remember 
the specifics, but I think the conclusion was that he ought 
to be -- that awhile Admiral Poindexter should be allowed to 
resign. Colonel North should be relieved from duty and sent 
back to the Marine Corps . 

Q Do you recall who was advocating that? 

A I believe it was Don Regan, but I am not positive. 

Q Did you concur with that? 

A I don't know whether I concurred or not, because 
at that stage, that aspect of it really was not within 
my province to recommend or not recommend. 



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Do you know if anyone had given any assurances 
to Colonel North that he would be allowed to resign 
rather than being fired, so to speak? 

A No. I did not know anything, and have no recollec- 
tion of anything like that ever being discussed in my presence 

O If we can jump a little back to the morning, 
Tuesday morning, when you met with Mr. Casey early at his 
home? 

A Yes. 

Q He said he had learned about the diversion from 
Mr. Regan? 

A Right. 

Q And what did he tell you about the diversion? 

A He just told me that the previous evening that 
Don Regan had talked to him about the diversion and he 
felt that something ought to be done, that Don Regan felt 
something ought to be done immediately. 

Q Did Director Casey communicate to you on that 
occasion that he had asked North and Poindexter about it, 
and they had denied it? Or was that 

A At some point, he told me that, or I saw that in 
the memoranda. I am not sure which it was, but I did 
learn either from him directly or through the memos that he 
had asked back when Furmark first talked to him, that he 
had talked to Poindexter and, I believe, also to Notth, and 



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that at least Poindexter and probably North, if he had talked 
with him, also assured him there was nothing to what Furmark 
had to say, what the Canadians were saying. 

Q When 

A Let me just add one other thing we talked about 
at Mr. Casey's home that morning. That was the need to get 
this out immediately. He was very adamant, as I was, that 
we had to move quickly and make sure this got out as quickly 
as possible. 

Q J What were his reasons? 

A The same as all the rest of us. That is the 
President, Don Regan and myself. That is so it was clear 
that it was the Administration itself that was bringing 
this to public attention, and that there was no attempt 
on anybody's part to conceal anything. 

Q When precisely did you decide that a criminal 
investigation was warranted? 

A Well, on Monday afternoon, I had asked Chuck 
Cooper to look over our facts and to determine whether 
there was any basis at all to commence a criminal inquiry 
and whether there were any possible criminal offenses involvd 
because at that time there did not appear to be any apparent. 

He did that, and came up with some ideas, which we 
discussed, I believe the next day, when I came back from the 
White House. It was at that time that I asked Bill Weld 



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from the Criminal Division to come in and asked him if he would 
get together with Chuck Cooper and determine whether there 
was any possible basis for a criminal investigation. And he 
then spent that afternoon, while I was — I guess -- I don't 
know where I was on the 25th — I guess back at the white House 
Because I next met with him — Yes. That-is right. I met 
with Bill Weld then later that afternoon, and he had core 
back and they had — and he indicated that while it might 
be stretching, there were some possible offenses that might be 
some criminal laws that might be involved. 

So it was at that time that I asked the Criminal 
Division to begin a regular investigation. 

Q So at that time then, Tuesday afternoon is when 
you decided that a criminal investigation was warranted? 

A Yes , late Tuesday afternoon. 

Q What fact led you to that conclusion? 

A Well, it was, first of all, Mr. Cooper indicated 
that there might be — there might probably be some criminal 
offenses, criminal laws involved, and then that was enough 
to indicate that we ought to have Bill Weld take a look at 
it. He worked with his lawyers all afternoon and ccune up 
with some possible areas where there might be criminal 
violations involved, such as a constructive trust theory that 
the money that was in excess profits from the Iranian arms 
transaction might accrue to the United States undefa: an agency 



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or constructive trust theory and, therefore, there might 
possible be a diversion — a criminal diversion of public 
funds. 

Q So in other words, the research on the criminal 
area centered upon the diversion, not on the Iranian arms 
sales themselves? 

A That is right. 

Q Okay. 

A Although I think there may have been some aspects 
of that that the Criminal Division came back with. They 
came back with kind of a laundry list of possible statutes. 
I think probably a dozen different statutes that night be 
involved? 

A So is it fair to say that the fact of the diversion 
is what triggered in your mind the possibility that there may 
be criminal violations? 

A Yes- Particularly when I had learned that it 
was an unauthorized diversion. 

Q When i3 it then that you actually decided 
to apply for independent counsel? And I am not skipping ahead. 

A Once we started the criminal investigation, I 
talked to, on, I think, Wednesday, to Bill Weld after the 
criminal investigation had begun, or while it was in the 
process of beginning, which was essentially on Wednesday, 
and said that it was highly possible, probable evdn, that this 



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would involve an independent counsel because of White House 
people being involved, and that they should view this as 
the initial inquiry to determine whether a preliminary 
investigation in the independent counsel process should be 
invoked. 

Q I guess I missed the answer to my question. When 
was it that you decided to apply? 

A Then they conducted such an inquiry and came 
back to me the following week, which I believe was the 4th 
of December, but it was some time that week. 

Q That is when the application was made. I guess my 
question is when did you decide in your own mind that, yes, 
we are going to go for an independent counsel? 

A In my own mind, the early part of that week. 

Q Say, around December 1st or 2nd? 

A Say, the 2nd, 1st or 2nd, yes. Because I think it 
was probably on the 2nd that I talked to the Tower 
Commission and it was on that day that I think I told them 
that there was probably enough, for an independent counsel, 
at least in my mind; and it was, I think, a day or two later- 

MR. BOLTON: I think the public record reflects 
your press conference was on December 2nd. 

THE WITNESS: No. That was the 25th. 

Oh, on the IC, What day was that? 

MR. BOLTON: Tuesday, a week after the ofther one. 



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THE WITNESS: Oh, I see. We filed the application 
on the 4th. I announced on the 2nd. That is right. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Obviously, you decided some time before the 2nd? 

A Yes. It was probably the 1st or the 2nd. It was 
really based upon the — it was based upon Bill Weld coming 
to me and saying that they felt they had enough to proceed, 
to aooly for an independent counsel, yes. So that was on 
the 1st or 2nd. 

Q Jf I can jump to a couple of other subjects quickly? 
Oliver North, during his interview, mentioned that the bank 
accounts for the contras were the same accounts that 
foreign governments had used to give donations to the contras. 
Were you aware of any foreign government contribution to the 
contras at any time from 1984 through 1986? 

A I don't recall that in Oliver North's statement 
to us on Sunday, he said that they were the same accounts that 
were used by foreign governments to give money to the contras, 
and 1 don't believe I was aware of that at that time or any 
tiwe during this period prior to the week of the 1st to 4th 
of December. My recollection is that he said that three 
accounts had been established for the contras and that money 
had been — and that the Iranians had been directed or the 
Israelis had been directed, one of the two, to put money 



1 



into those accounts. 



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Q Then let's get to the second half of the question. 

Were you aware, either as counselor to the President during 
that period of time, or subsequently as Attorney General, of 
any foreign governments donating to the Nicaraguan Resistance? 

A I don't recall being aware of that. It is possible 
if it was in the newspaper, but I don't have any recollection 
now of being specifically aware of that. 

Q Okay. 

So we have heard testimony that the President 
met^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ You know 
about those meetings? 

A I don't have any recollection of knowing about those 
meetings at the time. I think that was during 1995 and 1936; 
is that correct? 

Q I think actaully before. 

A Maybe it was in 1984. I don't have any — I don't 
recall at this time that I knew about it. It is possible 
that I did. 

Q Oliver North, mentioned yesterday in his testimony 
that — he had sought your assistance and that of the FB 

which I assume is some sort of 

regarding his meeting with 




recall anything concerning his negotiations with them? 
A It is possible that he did. I don't haVe any 



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It is possible that that happened. I just don't 
recall at this time. 





Q Sure. 

Do you have any personal recol lection of 
speaking to Colonel North about hisj 

A NO. I don't recall, at this time, any such incident 
happening. 

Q Did you, either while you were at the White House, 
or as Attorney General, participate in any fundraising 
efforts for the contras? 

A Not that I recall. No. 

Q Did you ever direct potential contributors to 
Oliver North.? 

A Not that I recall. There was some newspaper 
story about someone calling ray office and being directed 
by my office to the National Security Councel staff and, 
in turn, being referred to Colonel North, but I don't have 
any recollection of it myself. 

Q What, if anything, didyou know about Colonel North's 
involvement in the contras resupply operations? 

knew much a1»ut it at 
'conversation in 



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the' White House, or it may have been in the newspapers. I 
really don't have any recollection specifically of what, if 
anything, I knew about it. 

Q Did you discuss with the President — now some time 
after November 1986 -- the probable pardon or immunity for 
Colonel North? 

A Yes. There was a discussion in the middle of 
December, some time between — some time around the 15th of 
December, give or take a few days. We met with the President 
at that tisne concerning grants of immunity, vrtiich came -up 
on the President's own initiative. He asked about this in 
the context of trying to get North and Poindexter to reveal 
information. 

I think at that time — I believe at that time they 
had already appeared before committees of Congress and taken 
the Fifth Amendment, and I don't remember a specific discussion 
of a pardon. I think there was — it was kind of a meeting 
that- I described when I talked to the House Committee, I 
said it was a rolling meeting in that there was a kind of a genera:. 
discussion of what can we do to get the facts out. And 
the question said, what about immunity? I told the — I 
think someone in the White House, perhaps, the White House 
Counsel, had done a memorandum on this, and the President 
asked me about it. I think that is how it came up. 

And I advised the President that it is possible 



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to grant immunity, that it should be what we call, "use 
immunity," that is that — if it was going to be done at 
all, that immunity should be granted only for the actual 
testimony not being used against them, rather than transaction 
immunity, that he would be given immunity from everything. 

I made some corrections in the White House statement 
on immunity that had been oreoared by someone there, and 
also advised that any grant of use immunity should be 
coordinated with the independent counsel, rather than just 
done without having that been worked out. 

Q Was it your position then that the Department of 
Justice could grant Colonel North immunity despite the 

independent counsel's 

MR, BOLTON: Excuse me one second. 
THE WITNESS; Well, the department could not, but 
he could be granted use immunity, for example, by Congress, 
but whether the President should urge that on the Congress was 
something that I felt should be coordinated with the 
independent counsel. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q So what you were discussing with the President was 
simply congressional iraraunity? 

A We were just discussing the subject generally. 
It was not even at the point where we had a refined discussion 
but someone_^t;.iIie White House had suggested that, and I belies 



t_at the White House had s 



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il discussion 



had a general statement or memorandum on the subject, and 
the President was asking me about it. 

- Did — were you aware of any efforts on the 
part of Brendan Sullivan, the attorney for Colonel North, 
to speak to the President? 

A I don't recall being aware of it. It may have 
been mentior«;d to me. I am not sure in this genera] 
but I don't specifically recall that. 

Q Did .Mr. Sullivan ever attempt to speak to you? 

A ,' I believe there was a time when he did want to 
talk to me and I discussed it with the independent counsel. 
He wanted to discuss — talk to, either me or someone in 
the department. I discussed it with the independent counsel, 
and we decided that that would not be an appropriate thing 
to do. 

Q Was there any 

A It was one of the lawyers anyway, I think it was 
Brendan Sullivan. 

Q vras there any discussion, either at the Department 
of Justice, or anywhere in the Administration, of giving 
Colonel North a pardon? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Again, jumping- — 

A Let me say this. Not that I recall in a serious 
sense. There was also jocular conversation about pardons, 



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and this sort of thing, but never in a serious sense. 

Q Do you know whether anyone ever communicated to 
Colonel North that he could expect a pardon? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Skipping to another topic, if I can. The Drug 
Enforcement Agency was involved in efforts to gain intelligencd 
to locate and extricate the hostages held in Lebanon? 

A Yes. 

Q When were you made aware of their efforts? 

A At some point — and I can't remember the exact 
time -- either John Poindexter, but I think it was Colonel 
North, asked me for the authorization of the DEA to assist 
in providing intellignece or locating persons who might 
provide intelligence relating to where the hostages were 
being held, and generally to provide information that might 
be of assistance in having them — in getting them out 
Lebanon. It was my — it is my recollection that there were 
some agents who had been working in Lebanon, who had particular 
information that was important, and I authorized Jack Lawn, 
tbe Director of the Drug Enforcement Administration, to 
provide that kind of intelligence assistance. 

Q Did you authorize Mr. La%m in writing or did you 
call him up? 

A I believe it was verbally. 

Q Were those agents to be assigned to the, NSC or 



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simply to cooperate? 

A It would have been the NSC staff rather than the 

NSC. 

Q Yes. 

A I don't remember the exact arrangements, but I 
know that they were to be — that I authorized that they 
be permitted to assist, and I don't remember the exact arrange- 
ments that were made, if I knew at the time. 

Q Was it your understanding these agents were to 
have an o^rational role? ' 

A To the best of my recollection, they were to 
provide intelligence, and assistance in obtaining informants, 
rather than being engaged in any actual operations relating 
to the rescue of the hostages. 

Q Was there ever a finding prepared on their 
activities, that is the DEA agents activities? 

A No. I don't think there would be, because they 
are not an intelligence agency. 

Q Assuming for a moment ■— and I can represent the 
committee has information that they were working in more of 
an operational role, in terms of extricating hostages, would 
that have required a finding? 

A I don't know whether it would have or not. It 
would depend upon the facts and circumstances of what they 
did. If they were operating in an intelligence capacity 



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it would not require a finding. 

Q If they were 

- A If they were only gathering intelligence, it doesn't 
require a finding. If they are A, an intelligence agency, 
and B, involved in covert actions other than intelligence 
gathering, it is possible a finding might be required. It 
would have to depend upon the facts and circumstances. 

Q In the case of the 1985 Hawk shipment, we know 
that the CIA was involved in the transportation of the 
equipment^ from Israel to Iran. Assuming the same facts 
for DEA, that the DEA agents were involved in the trans- 
portation or in locating transportation and coordinating 
that transportation of the hostages, for instance, and their 
extrication, would that activity, in your opinion, require 
a finding? 

MR, BOLTON: I'm not sure — this is an area of 
sort of speculation and general legal finding. 

THE WITNESS: I can't answer a hypothetical 
question. Let me say that in the normal parlance of the 
National Security agent, it relates to findings, it refers 
to intelligence agencies, and I don't believe that the DEA 
would be considered an intelligence agency within the meaning 
of that section. But I would want to — it would depend 
a lot on specific facts of a specific situation. 



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BY MS. NAUGHTON: -•■ ■■ - - 

Q Were you aware that private monies were going to 
to pay^^^^^^^^^^^^^Rnd other people the 
Middle East to gain the release of the hostages? 

A I don't recall having that kind of detailed 
information at the time, or as to what the details are. 
I think there was a report at some point along the line in 
which certain facts were provided to me, but I don't recall 
now exactly what the circumstances were. 

Q /> Do you recall the mention of $200,000 in private 
monies being obtained to pay to bribe thel 




A I don't recall that now, that I was told that. 
As I say, it may be contained in a document. 
Do we have that? 

MR. MATTHEWS: I don't think we do. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: ' ' ' ' ;• • 
Q General Meese, you indicated that you may have 
received a document, perhaps, outlining something to that 
effect. Can you recall? ' c- 

A I may have seen a document at some point. 

MR, BOLTON: There is such a document. It was 
produced to the committee. We do not have it here now 
because it is in a secure area. 

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THE WITNESS: The question is at some point, I thxnk 
fairly recently, I do recall seeing such a document. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q And do you recall the mention in that document of 
private monies? 

A I don't recall any of the details of the document 
without seeing it, 

Q Were you ever consulted regarding the use of 
private monies to extricate the hostages? 

A I don't recall being consulted on that subject.' 

Q So you never gave any advice to anyone at the DEA 
or the National Security Council staff regarding the use of 
private monies as opposed to governir.ent monies to bribe 

>r pay for the extrication of the hostages? 

A I don't recall any such conversation. It is 
possible that there was a discussion, but I don't recall it. 

Q Do you recall whether or not you knew how the 
expenses of the DEA agents were to be paid? 

A I'm not sure that I recall even that there were 
going to be expenses other than they were going to be 
helping. It is possible it was discussed with me, but I 
don't have a recollection of it now. 

Q Did Colonel North ever tell you that some of their 
expenses were paid from monies contributed for the Nicaraguan 
Resistance? 



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A I don't recall that that ever happened. No. 

Q How often — when did Colonel North brief you on 
how often? 

A Well, my only recollection — there may have been 
more discussions, but the only recollection I have was when 
he asKed for the authorization to the DEA to provide that kind 
of assistance. 

Q And that was just to be for intelligence gathering? 

A Well, it was to provide assistance, and my recoIlecti( 
is it was to help them locate informants in Lebanon that might 
be able to assist with the rescuing of the hostages. 

Q Do you know whether or not the President was 
apprised of the activities of DEA in that regard? 

A I don't recall whether he was or not. I don't 
recall — I don't believe that I ever talked with him. At 
least I can't remember talking with him about it, and I 
don't know whether anyone else did. 

Q Did you know of Ross Perot's involvement in 
this? 

A I believe I had heard mention of Ross Perot 
being either possibly involved, or being asked to become 
involved in the efforts to locate the hostages, but I don't 
remember anything specific about his involvement. 

Q Do you remember being told that he was going to 



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A I can't specifically recall that, although it is 
possible I was told something along that line. 
MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you. 
Those are my questions. 

MR. BOLTON: If there is a point to shift, 
this might also be a convenient point to adjourn to the 
Command Center so they can set this room up. 
We can go off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
(Bri^f recess.) 



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(Back on the record.) 

MR. LEON: Let the record reflect we are getting 
back -on the record, and it is about 3:08 p.m., on the 
8th of July. 

Ms. Naughton has cut off her questions, even 
though I understand she has many more, in order to allow 
the House and the Senate counsel to get some questioning 
in before our, at least right now, tentative arrangements 
to adjourn at 5 o'clock, with the possibility, perhaps, 
we might bfe able to prey upon the Attorney General for an 
hour or two at a later time, if need be. 

We are going to try to wrap this up at 5 o'clock 
this afternoon. I will try to be done in less than an 
hour. 

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. LEON: 
Q Mr, Attorney General, let me go back over some of 
the areas, not in any way as near great detail since Pam 
has done a thorough, complete job here. 

Let me just ask you some questions on some 
certain points that have arisen along the way. With regard 
to November 7, Mr. Cooper has testified that it was at 
that time in '86 that you asked him to get himself ready to 
be of assistance in reviewing possible issues. At that 
point, what was your sense of what kind of probleijis he was 



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being brought in to work on? 

A My best recollection is that some time prior to 
the "Tth, I had been asked by John Poindexter to make 
available legal assistance, because in my request to Mr. 
Cooper I mention that he would probably be contacted by, or 
would be in touch with womraander Paul Thompson, who was 
the assistant to Mr. Poindexter. And I think it had to 
do generally with legal matters pertaining to the Iranian 
initiative, which in my mind, at that time, had to do with 
such thingi as the use of the National Security Act as opposed 
to the Arms Export Control Act for the transfer of weapons, 
matters pertaining to the ability of the President to 
proceed, and delaying notification of Congress, things such 
as that. 

Q Can you recall if in your discussion with Admiral 
Poindexter, the question came up whether or not Mr. Wallison 
and his office would also be involved or not be involved? 

A I can't recall specifically, but my best recollection 
is probably they wanted the assistance from the Justice 
Department, inasmuch — and I don't remember whether this 
was specifically discussed, but as a matter of general 
practice, the basic legal advice on national security 
affairs comes from the Office of Legal Counsel in the 
Department of Justice. 

Q Now, with regard to the President's press 



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conference on the 19th of November 1986, you testified you 
watched part of it and listened to part of it? 

A That is my best recollection. I know l was 
familiar with much of the news conference. 

Q Was it his performance that evening that prompted 
you t'^ want to be there on the next day for that upcoming 
session to review anticipated testimony before the Congress? 

A Well, it was the fact that he had not, apparently, 
had the accurate information as to the involvement of 
third cou/ntries, in this case, Israel, that led me to talk 
with John Poindexter that evening, and then Admiral 
Poindexter in turn advised me there would be a meeting the 
next day, and I believe indicated that, invited me to 
attend. 

Q When you went there, if you can recall, did you 
have any sense or impression before you got there, to 
the meeting, that the events of that preceding evening, 
in terms of the President's preparation that he had been 
given, et cetera, might raise a doubt in your mind as to 
the accuracy of the chronologies Mr. Cooper had been getting 
up until that point? ^ -^ 

A No. When I got there I didn't have any such 
feeling. I didn't know much about the chronologies he had 
been getting, and it was more a matter to be available to 
answer any and discuss any legal aspects of the thing that 

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might come up on that day, and also just generally to 
contribute to making sure we had the best possible testimony. 

- Q And, simply, when you left the meeting that day, 
on the 20th, were you leaving with an imoression, as far 
as the facts go, and the anticipated testimony as well as 
the chronologies, it was in pretty good shape? 

A Yes, that was my impression when I left the 
meeting some time between 3 and 4 o'clock. 

Q Now, Judge Sofaer's deposition, I don't know 
if you ha^e had a chance to read it-— 

A I have not. 

Q There are references in it to what he recalls 
saying to Mr. Burns in his conversation with Mr. Burns 
that afternoon. I believe in his recounting of it, he 
recounts Mr. Burns telling him, after speaking with you 
supposedly, that Mr. Bums said something to the effect 
that you had supposedly told Burns you knew of some special 
facts that would clear this whole thing up as to any dis- 
agreements. Do you recall making any statement of that 
nature to Mr. Burns to relay to Judge Sofaer? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of what 1 
said, but in reconstructing what occurred, I believe that 
Mr. Burns was somewhat inhibited, and I was somewhat 
inhibited talking freely about tfils over the phone, either 
because I was on the phone, we certainly were not* on a 



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secure phone, and the impression I got was that the State 
Department was concerned about their being different 
versions or inconsistencies in people's recollections of 
the events, and since we had corrected that sort of thing 
by bringing together the views of different people, I had 
assumed that was the problem they had seen in reviewing 
Mr. Casey's testimony and, therefore, transmitted the 
message back through Mr. Burns that we had taken care of 
that, because I had just come out of such a session in 
which everybody seemed to be, everybody that seemed to' 
know anything about it seemed to agree that the version 
Mr. Casey was prepared to testify to was an accurate depiction 
of what had occurred. 

Q As far as you knew as to the events Judge Sofaer 
would be relaying to you, I mean Mr. Burns would have been 
relaying to you, that would have been the first time he 
would have had any exposure to those areas of concern? 

A Yea. Mr. Burns didn't have this knowledge of this 
in general, other than what he may have been told by Mr. 
Sofaer. ,> ''^' 

Q After the events of y^^t* ev^Aing, November 20, 
when you finally Woke to Mr. Cooper and he relayed to you 
the concern of the State Department and their version 
versus the Shultz version and, of course, the errors that 
would be if the pre-agreed upon testimony went fotward, did 

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you at that point, Mr. Meese, feel that perhaps the accuracy 
of the chronologies you had been getting to that date were 
now in question? ' ' ' 

A I didn't question the accuracy of the chronologies 
in the sense somebody was deliberately trying to provide, 
inaccurate information. It was rather the fact that you 
had different people who had different nieces of information 
and that they did not all jibe, because of the fact that 
different people were looking at this from different vantage 
points, ^nd had different experiences in regard to what had 
occurred. 

Q So when you asked the President for permission to 
proceed with an investigation on Friday morning, the 21st, 
you were not, if I understand you correctly, proceeding 
on an investigation because you thought the President or 
other members of his cabinet were being lied to, but rather 
to straighten out what appeared to be inconsistencies 
and confusion? 

A That is correct. First of all, I didn't consider 
it an investigation, but rather a fact-finding review, 
because it didn't appear to be anything to investigate per se, 
and it was a matter, in my thinking, that because this project 
had been so highly compartmentalized, that different people 
had small parts of the information, and it was important to 
put together what everybody knew so that there vrotild be a 

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coherent account, so first of all, the President would 
know what happened, as he obviously had not been thoroughly 
briefed, as reflected in the news conference Wednesday night. 
And secondly, so that any testimony that was given would be 
completely accurate. 

Q So when you selected, anu I believe it was your 
selection, to meet with Mr. McFarlane first among the 
witnesses that you were going to meet with, you were not, 
at the time you made that decision, you were not viewing 
him as sopieone who was likely to be misleading or dishonest 
in any way in stating the facts, you weren't viewing him 
from that vantage point, were you? 

A No. 

Q In fact, were you proceeding on the presumption 
he would tell you the best truthful story, to the best of 
his knowledge and recollection? 

A Yes. 

Q Before getting to anything regarding the McFarlane 
interview that afternoon, let me just ask you this, with 
regard to that day, November 21, do you have any recollection 
of meeting with Ollie North or talking with Ollie North 
personally on that day? 

A No, I do not recall meeting or talking with him 
on that day. 

Q So if Ollie North has said to someone a't some 



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point that he spoke with you and asked you for 24 to 48 
hours to get his records in a state of preparation to be 
reviewed by you and your people, that wouldn't affect your 
recollection one way or the other? 

A No, I don't recall any such conversation. 

Q But you do recall speaking with Admiral Poindexter? 

A I do recall speaking with Admiral Poindexter on 
at least two occasions that day. One, I talked with 
him, obviously, in the President's office, and possibly 
talked with him earlier that day in order to obtain that 
appointment and, secondly, perhaps, thirdly, I talked with 
him later on in the afternoon seeking or advising him that 
we would be sending people over the next day to review the 
documents and asking for a point of contact, which he 
designated as Paul Thompson. 

Q One last point on that meeting of the 21st with 
the President. Donald Regan was present, as you testified? 

A Yes. 

Q As Mr. Cooper has indicated, the Legal Counsel 
to the President, Peter Wallison, was aware the evening 
before of this conflict between the Secretary of State's 
recollection of events and Mr. McFarlane's recollection of 
events? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have any sense when you were atf that meeting 



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-. 173 

Friday morning, Mr, Meese, that Donald Regan had already 
been apprised by Mr. Wallison that there was this conflict 
and_ that was the reason why you were coming? 

A I don't have any recollection that I was, that I 
got that impression, or that I knew about it at the time. 

Q Did the President raise the point that he had 
spoken with Secretary Shultz the evening before about the 
conflict? 

A He may have, I can't remember now whether he 
did or no^. 

Q You were aware of it at that point, when you 
went into the meeting, Shultz had met with the President 
the night before, were you not? 

A I don't recall whether I was or not. I think 
I may have been. Mr. Cooper may have told me, I am not 
positive. 

Certainly, by Saturday morning? 

A Yes, by Saturday morning, Mr. Shultz told me 
by that time — by the end of the interview, I knew. 

Q What was it he told you in the interview he had 
talked to the President about Thursday evening? 

A He indicated to me he had talked to the President 
and indicated there was more information and that he had 
known about ~ that the arms shipments had been discussed 
with him at the time of the Geneva conference, the Geneva 



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summit. Now, to go into more detail — I don't know how 
much of this he said he told the President, but he went 
through a great deal of detail about that with me, including 
the fact he had been told there was going to be a shipment 
of arms by Israel and that we were likely to get our 
hostages back, and also I think he also told me, and I 
would have to check this, but I believe he told me that 
he was later told by Bud that it had not occurred. 

Q Later been told by Bud? 

A J Let me check this. Let me find that out here. 

Let's see, it is the meeting with George Shultz. 
Yes. 

Q There is a reference at the bottom of the first 
page of the notes I think you are referring to,"GS Thursday 
night"? 

A Yes. George Shultz said Thursday night he went 
to the White House residence to see the President, and said 
some of the statements won't stand up to scrutiny, and he 
advised that McFarlane had come to him and told him of a 
transaction. And the President said he knew of it, but 
didn't understand it as arras for hostages, but as part of 
a larger plan. And then George Shultz repeated the Geneva 
conversation to Charlie Hill, and Charlie Hill made notes, and 
that goes back to what Hi ll had said, and Hill said the plane 
would go from Israelj^^^^Vf the hostages released 

lloiS! 



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it would go to Iran, if not, it would go back to Israel, and 
that the United States would be at^vised^^^^^B^^^^H^^^ 
hostages were released. 

This is relating to the conversation that took 
place at Geneva. Shultz said it was a very bad idea, 
didn't think it would work. He said he was consulted and 
told, but it was not presented to him. for approval or 
disapproval. 

Q Did he give you the impression he was upset with 
Mr. ' 

A He was upset. I got the impression it was one of 
many things happening in a fast-moving situation at the 
summit. George said he thought it didn't happen, he thought 
what he had been told was going to happen didn't happen, 
because no hostages were released, so he assumed the arms 
tramsfer had not gone through from Israel. 

Q Did you ask. him, do you recall, why he didn't 
go and tell the President he was upset about it? 

A At that tine? 

Q At that tine. 

A I would imagine because he had told ffud that he 
thought it was a bad Idea and that it was an Israeli 
operation rather than ours, and that— 

Q He assumed Bud would tell the President? 

A Also, I imagine — I don't remember specifically 



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whe-ther he said he t^uqhl Bud would tell the President or 
not. In any event, I don't — we just didn't have any 
discussion about whether he would tell the President or not, 
or why he did or didn't tell the President at that time. 
And, again, I think in my own nind, I assumed it was because 
of all the things happening with the summit. This was not 
one of the things you would want to add to the President's 
burdens while he was preparing for a summit discussion. 

Q I can't recall — when you went to see Director 
Casey thap evening, Saturday evening, was there any reason 
you didn't bring a notetaker with you that evening? 

A Yes. It was just a casual visit. He said he had 
something he wanted to talk with me about. I didn't view 
that as the more formal interviews we had had with some of 
the other people we were meeting with. 

Q So, it wasn't part of the inquiry you were doing 
at that time? 

. A W«ll, it was touching base with him, but it was not 
a formal interview as such. 

Q And you anticipated there would be another one 
at a later point? 

A I had anticipated we would do that as we went 

along. 

Q Now, with regard to the meeting with North the 

following day. 



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A Yes. 

Q The notes of that interview indicate that you 
began — Mr. Richardson's notes — I believe that they 
indicated, if you have a copy there in front of you, 
that you gave him, at the very beginning of your interview 
with him you gave him an a''"ionition with regard to the 
President and with regard to the best way to deal with the 
matter at hand. 

Look at the notes and refresh your recollection 
and tell us what it was you told him. 

A I was trying to explain why we were doing all this, 
for one thing. And I said we wanted to get all the facts 
from everyone who was involved and flesh out the different 
recollections, that I had talked to the President and John 
Poindejcter about this. 

I said the worst thing that could happen is if 
so.Tieone tries to conceal something to protect themselves 
or the President, or try to put a good spin up, and we 
want nothing that anyone can call a cover up, and so we 
want to know what happened early on. And the reason for that 
was basically that was, this was a top news item, this was 
a matter tliat was of considerable congressional concern 
already, as indicated by the fact there had already been 
testimony in briefings taking place, and in my own mind, 
as well as in the President's mind, the worst thing that 



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could happen was to compound whatever political damage 
there might be from this initiative, which had not been 
successful, would be compounded if anyone could then 
claim there was some kind of a cover up, and that is why 
we felt it very important to get all the truth out and to 
make sure that everybody was either testifying later on 
in Congress, or making public statements, that they were being 
absolutely factual. 

Q Mr. Richardson's notes of that meeting indicate 
that around the very first page, which is an exhibit for 
Oliver North, OLN-14 — now, is that essentially what you 
also had told Mr. McFarlane on Friday evening when you 
had that little side conversation at the end? 

A That was essentially the sane thing, although 
I didn't go into quite as much volxime of it. That was 
essentially the seune thing, right. 

Q Now, with regard to the interview itself, at any 
time in the course of that interview, did Colonel North 
ask you for his rights 

A No. 

Q his constitutional rights to be given to him? 

A No. 

Q In specific, after being shown the diversion 
memo, did he at any point, after having been shown that and 
questionedby you, make any comment to you or the others there. 




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"Doe^ this count since you haven't given me my rights?' 

A I don't recall any such statement, no. 

Do you recall, in reviewing the notes, any reference 
in the notes anywhere? I don't believe you will find any. 
I just want to test your recollection. 

A I don't recall that, and Z don't see it anywhere 
in the notes, no. ■ \. 

Q Directing your att«ntion to page 19 of the notes, 
I believe at that point you were still present, the notes 
indicating on the following page the, "^G left at 4:05"? 

A Yes. 

Q At the point at page 19, you were still present? 
At that point it appears from looking at the notes that 
there was some discussion with regard to another potential 
problem, problematic area, and the discussion raises the 
problem of under Iranian law the advanced payment is permitted 
and that there were t%io individuals, GORB, which I presume 
means Ghorbanifar and Khashoggi, who were raising money 
and might have complaints about nonpayment. Do you recall 
that being discussed with Colonel North before you left? 

A Z don't recall it specifically now, but I see from 
the notes it apparently was, yes. 

Q I notice in looking at this portion of the notes, 
there is no notation with regard to the name "Purmark." 
in any way, shape or form? • 

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, Q Do you know if the n2L'Tie "Furmark" or the Furmark- 
related incidents Mr. Casey had told you about the preceding 
evening had come up in the context of that discussion. 

Q I don't recall that the name "Furmark" came up, 
no. But, of course, when he said this I was familiar with 
the general situation he was describing. 

Q Was there any reason, if you can recall, when you, 
in response to hearing this story being raised by North, 
didn't counter with, well, are you feuniliar with the Furmark 
situation and Director Casey? 

A There was probably a practical reason. 

Q What was that? 

A And that was I had to leave at 4 o'clock, and, 
as you can see, I left at 4:05. I had to pick someone up 
from the airport. That was not a particularly big thing, 
so I didn't go into it any further. 

Q There wasn't a tactical reason? 

A There was no factual reason for not mentioning 
it, no. 

Q You didn't see by not mentioning it any harm to 
the inquiry you were conducting, the fact-finding mission 
you were conducting, did you? 

A No. 

Q Now, with regard also to- — 

A Inasmuch as I had that information from;Mr, Casey 



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and I don't believe when I talked with Mr. Casey there was 
anything that he said that would lead me to believe 
Mr. "North knew anything about it. 

Q That was my next question. 

Upon speaking with Casey, had he mentioned any 
involvement between Mr. North and Furmark, or even 
North's knowledge of this Furmark problem? 

A I don't recall that he did, and I don't believe 
he did. 



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Q Referring you to page 8 of those notes that you 
have there in front of you, there is a notation about a 
third of the way down the page that begins, "When learned 
Hawks NOR-CIA,"? It appears to be a reference to a question 
as to what he did when he learned about the Hawks being 
part of the "hipraent. Then there is a question mark, who, 
and then iu says, "perhaps directly to Casey." Did you 
come away with the impression from your interview. that 
North had mentioned to Casey the fact that there were 
Hawks oii the plane prior to January of 1986, in that' 
November -Dec ember time period when the findings were being 
worked on that he had talked to Casey about Hawks? 

A No. I can't remember precisely but from the notes 
I would say that he went to the CIA, somebody in the CIA, 
yes. Did he get — perhaps it got directly to Casey, but 
it appears to me he got to McMahon who sent him to the 
lawyers because the following discussion is about McMahon 
not being happy, HcMahon, and then he said McMahon can't 
stand him and he blames him for the Nicaraguan mining, so 
he wouldn't call McMahon. I see, so — I asked the question, 
"Did you go to McMahon who sent you to the lawyers?" And 
he said, "McMahon was not happy so I wouldn't have called 
McMahon." So whether he called Casey or not, I don't know 
and he wasn't sure whether it had gotten directly to Casey. 
That was ambiguous from the notes as to whether he went to 



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"^LK 5A 1 somebody else at CIA and that it may have gotten directly 

2 2 to Casey. 

3 Q When you left that meeting on Sunday, did you 

4 have any clear sense as to whether or not Colonel North had 

5 informed Director Casey of the Hawks, the existence of the 
« Hawks and the plane? 

7 A I don't believe that I did. 

8 Q Did your discussions with regard to the finding 

9 during that meeting and the need for a November finding come 

10 up in that meeting? 

11 A I'm not sure whether we discussed findings with 

12 him or not. 

13 Q Was it your testimony earlier today the first 

14 time you thought findings came up was at the November 10th 

15 meeting, that Poindexter raised it at that November 10th 
1g meeting with the NSC, NSPG? 

^7 AX think I would have to look at those notes, but 

18 I think the firet time that — I'm sure that the findings 

19 came up had to do with the meeting with Sporkin, the inter- 

20 view with Sporkin on Saturday morning. Whether they had 

21 also come up, the need for--you mean the preparation of a 

22 finding by CIA? 

23 Q Ves. Pre-January 1986, the November 1986 finding. 

24 A A finding before that — let me take a look at those 

25 notes and see if it came up there. Yes. Well, no, the 

t ; i r 



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reference to a finding there had to do with the 17th of 
January 1986 finding. 

Q What I'm trying to focus you on is the first time 
you had definitely heard about the pre-January finding to 
cover the Hawk shipments situation in November. 

A The first time I specifically remember it is in 
the discussions with Mr. Sporkin on — 

Q Saturday morning? 

A — the 22nd, Saturday, yes. 

Q ' And do you recall in that interview Sporkin 
indicating he had spoken with Casey about the need for a 
finding and the importance of having some kind of a finding 
done by the CIA? 

A Let me just refresh my recollection. I have the 
notes of that meeting. 

Q Okay. 

A It was Mr. Sporkin 's recollection that he had, 
that th« information had been provided to him through the 
•f forts of Mr. MaMahon. And he told McMahon it should be 
used, and I don't see anything that related to that finding 
where he talked about dealing with Mr. Casey on it. It 
looked like it was Mr. McMahon. But he did talk with Mr. 
Casey about a finding in regard to January, at or about the 
5th or 6th of January of 1986. 

Q I guess >*hat^r 1^1, tjryinq._,toaet at, Mr. Meese, 



oasssPFl 



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IS when you finished with North on Sunday afternoon, were 
you at that time acting under a belief that Casey was aware 
prior to January 1986, Director Casey, that there had been 
Hawks on that, in that November shipment, Hawks on that 
plane? 

A I don't recall specifically, but my best recollec- 
tion is that I did not know, that I did not form an opinior. 
that Mr. Casey had been aware at or about November of 1985 
of the shipment of Hawks. My best recollection is, and I 
think this is accurate, that he was away from the CI.A at 
that time and that is why Mr. McMahon was the one who was 
gone to. 

Q With respect to Mr. North and with respect to Mr. 
Poindexter, after the North interview there clearly would 
have been, certainly, information now in your possession to 
indicate that McFarlane and Poindexter and North all knew 
before January 1986 of Hawks on that plane. Wouldn't that 
be true? North acknowledged it himself. 

A North indicated that he had learned about that. 
And I'm trying to — I had better refresh my recollection now 
as to how he learned about that. 

Q I think he indicated in his testimony to you that 
he had been told by Secord. 

A He had been told by Secord, yes, now I recall. 
Right. So he knew. 

• «^i» ^^•■•^ -^flW^i^ ^^•Wrti'P 



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^y'Aai *<»'^ -- 192 

Q North knew? 

A He knew. 

Q McFarlane knew because he told Shultz? 

A McFarlane, I think he couldn't remember whether 
it was Hawks, he didn't remember telling Shultz it was 
Hawks. He couldn't remember that conversation. But, if 
you put what Shultz together with what hcFarlane said, you 
would form that impression he knew it was Hawks, yes. 

Q And as to Poindexter, had North informed you that 
Poindextter--let me direct your attention to page 25 o'f the 
notes. At that point, you were no longer in the interview. 

A I wasn't there any longer, so I'm not sure whether 
I knew Poindexter knew about it or not. 

Q On page 2 5 of the notes I believe it indicates-- 

A I see. 

Q At the bottom. 

A The question is asked do you think it was oil 
equipment. He said, "No, I thought it was munitions," told 
McFarlane and Poindexter and they said, "Go to it." CIA 
was not told and CIA was told by North it was oil equipment. 

Q So, if North and McFarlane and Poindexter, at 
least according to what you have at that point, might have 
known there were people themselves who knew prior to January 
1986 in the U.S. Government that there had been Hawks on 
that shipment, thefltthat .yo^ldj hav^. b««^^a direct contradic- 



194 



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tion of what you had been told just three days before at the 
November 2 0th meeting when North proposed the language that 
you wrote in-- 

A Ves, that is correct. -• ^ 

Q — on the insert? :.'- . :.-.. 

A That is correct 

Q And. when Po^ndexter sat by and suggested it 

shouldn't be chamged? 

A Yes. 

Q ; And Director Casey might have possibly known? 

A At that point, I had no reason to believe he did 
other than North's statement it might have gotten up to Case^ 

Q When you spoke with McFarlane the next day, did 
he confirm any change, did he have any change of mind? 

A I don't believe I talked with him about the Hawk 
thing. By that time my focus was more on the diversion of 
funds rather than on the Hawk situation. 

Q How about with regard to Mr. Poindexter? When 
you spoke with him? 

A I did not talk to him about the Hawks. 

Q Again, you were focusing — 

A I was focusing on the diversion of funds. 

Q When you spoke with the President on Monday the 
24th and informed him of your discovery in the diversion 



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TOi^ SECRET 

Admiral, Admiral Poindexter had authorized it? 

A I don't recall that he did. I told him in the 
afternoon that Poindexter knew about it, and i had specific- 
ally/ because I had not yet touched base with Poindexter, I 
specifically had not asked for Poindexter to be 

at th«» meeting in the morning or in the afternoon. 

Q Was there-- 

A But I don't recall the President asked whether 
Poindexter had authorized it. I told him in the afternoon 
what Poindexter had said to me. In the morning our conver- 
sation was cut short, so we didn't have a chance to go into 
it entirely. 

Q Poindexter hadn't said to you that he had author- 
ized it? 

A No. 

Q He just acknowledged knowing about it. He 
acknowledged to me he knew about it and, in effect, had 
allowed it to go forward. 

Q Did that constitute to you a signal of authoriza- 
tion from him to North? 

A Well, it was certainly, the fact that he knew 
about it and allowed it to go forward was certainly 
acquiescence in it going forward and that was, in my mind, 
the reason why he said he knew when this all became 

public he would pr9^a^X%&*^V52^^^^^- 
i a Til '^ i il\'-- 1 1P 3 lo 1 3 



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Q Shifting back to one question, one more question 
on the Sporkin area, did Judge Sporkin indicate to you 
Saturday morning, when you interviewed him, that he had been 
told by Admiral Poindexter that the November 26th finding 
had been signed by the President? Do you recall if he told 
you that? 

A I will have to look here. I just don't have any 
recollection. And I don't find anything at this point on 
the notes that would indicate whether that initial finding 
had been signed or not. 

My best recollection is I have never heard from 
anyone that the finding was, in fact, signed. 

Q Did Deputy Director McMahon ever indicate to 
you or did anyone indicate to you, he had been told it had 
been signed? 

A I don't recall that he did or that anyone told me 
that and, as a matter of fact, to the best of my knowledge, 
this has never been found in any records, so there has been 
no discovery of a signed finding. 

Q The December 7th, 1935 meeting that you have heard 
reference to, I am sure on numerous occasions, you were not 
present at that meeting were you? 

A No, I was in Switzerland at that time, in Europe. 

Q Were you ever informed by Admiral Poindexter or 
anyone el8e,foi; that matter, that Admiral Poindexter wanted 



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lyLi'V^^N SLu 196 

Oliver North to touch bases with you on the November 26th 
proposed finding? 

A No. 

Q When you brought, when you went over in early 
January to review the January 17th finding that was being 
worked on that ultimately was signed and you were reviewing 
it, as I recall you didn't bring any other attorney with 
you from the Department of Justice, is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q ) Was there any particular reason why you didn't 
bring Mr. Cooper along or anyone of your other staff 
attorneys? 

A Yes. Because this was such a sensitive project 
that my recollection was I was the only one they wanted over 
there. 

Q Had you been directed to come alone, or I should 
say, asked to come alone by Admiral Poindexter? 

A I don't remember — it was certainly implicit this 
was a closely held type of thing. 

Q With regard to the November 10th meeting — I'm 
going to bounce around a little bit here — with regard to 
the November 10th meeting that you referred in your notes 
to before-- 

A Cjm I have the November 10th notes? 

Q Was thatt ,a NSC or. NSPG meeting? 



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A My notes indicate it was a National Security 
meeting, which means that it was of people--it was just 
who was there. 

Q Can you tell us who was there? 

A My notes indicate who was there and it was not 
a National Security Council meeting, it was not a NS^-" 
meeting, it was what I described as a National Security 
meeting in the Oval Office, which was a special type of 
meeting and the people who were there include, the 
President, George Shultz, John Poindexter, Bill Casey, 
Don Regan, Casper Weinberger, Al Keel, who at that time was 
the deputy to John Poindexter, and myself. A total of nine 
people. - 

Q Jumping back to the 20th, the events of the 20th, 
Mr. Cooper has testified that Peter Wallison later that 
afternoon, after you had left for Westpoint, indicated to 
him great displeasure not being asked to that meeting on 
the 20th. 

A Yes. I understand he testified to that. 

Q Had that been relayed to you, Mr. Wallison' s 
feelings about not having been included at that particular 
event? 

A I'm not sure whether it had been or not. 

Q with respect to your meeting with George Webster 
on the 21st, when he was still Director of the FBI at that 



i was still Director of 



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time, is it your recollection that you asked him or that he 
volunteered the assistance of the FBI? 

A I can't recall for sure, but I think he may have 
said, "Well the FBI is available if you need it." And then 
we discussed this in terms of whether there was any criminal 
predicate for bringing the FBI in and whether the President 
could be criticized for using thw FBI for non-criminal 
purposes. In other words, that he would be criticized or 
we would be criticized for making, in essence, a political 
use of the FBI because it was for purposes not connected 
with the violation of criminal laws. 

Q When you spoke with Secretary Weinberger over 
the weekend, were those secure phone calls? 

A No, they were open phone lines. 

Q You were satisfied after talking with him that 
you didn't need to go to the next step and either meet 
with him personally or — 

A Well, I planned to meet with him later on, but 
I felt that it was not necessary to do that on Saturday, 
partially because, I think, in the course of our conversatior 
it appeared to me there wasn't any t>articular urgent 
information that he had that I didn't already have and, 
secondly, that his wife was in the hospital and I didn't 
wamt to inconvenience him on that day or that weekend. 

saw 



Q With relf«^'nU> ,t»^/^d«ii;^j*|hich you 



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yi^yi-a »*^'~'** 199 

1 witnesses, a couple of questions in that area, we already 

2 went over the point about McFarlane and why you chose to 

3 see him first and your investigation. The decision you made 

4 to see the President on Monday morning, before seeing 

5 Admiral Poindexter, can you just explaim ■ to us why it 

6 was, without hav-ng had his confirmation, he was aware of 

7 the diversion since he was the superior of Oliver North, 

8 why you went ahead to see the President without first being 

9 certain that he was aware of it? 

10 A I can't remember precisely why that happened. 

11 It was probably — there were other things I had to do that 

12 morning and I wanted to get to the President as quickly as 

13 possible. 

14 Q You were sufficiently satisfied at that point 

15 that there had been a diversion that had taken place , and 

16 that Oliver North's superior at least. Admiral Poindexter, 

17 was aware of it and you wanted to determine whether the 

18 President was aware of it or not? 

19 A Well, I wanted to let the President know and, 

20 obviously, I had assumed that he was not aware of it from 

21 what Oliver North had told me. 

22 Q So you didn't see that putting in any way at 

23 risk, your inquiry you were going to see the President 

24 before seeing Admiral Poindexter? 

25 A No. As a matter of fact, it was consistent with 



201 



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It because, at that stage, I wanted to get the information tq 
the President and, of course, as i mentioned earlier, i 
made sure it was just the President and Don Regan, and 
because of the possible involvement, made sure that Poindex- 
ter was not there. 

Q Now, there were PROF notes that indicate as late 
as Monday evening Admiral Poindexter and Colonel North were 
proposing an understanding or assumption, on both of their 
parts, perhaps erroneous, that North would be able to 
resign father than be fired, and if that's accurate, -then 
it appears that the decision, the ultimate decision to fire 
North occurred on Tuesday morning. Do you have any 
recollection — 

A That is my best recollection, and that was made 
after we had met with the President at 9 o'clock. 

Q Who recommended that to the President? 

A I believe it was Don Regan; that he be relieved 
or duty and returned to the Marine Corps. Firing has a 
little different connotation here because firing, normally, 
means a person is out of a job. In this case it was a 
matter of transferring him back to the Marine Corps. 

Q I used the word because he used it in his 
testimony yesterday. You viewed it as a reassignment? 

A That is right. Getting him out of the White House 

Q Let me close with this and then my Senate colleagu 



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201 

can get his shot at bat here. I asked Mr. Cooper a 
question to the effect to try to state for the record, 
to give him an opportunity to state for the record some sensd 
of what it was like to be in the middle of this rapidly 
developing set of events and the exigency of it and the 
gravity of it. I would offer you the same opportunity 
for the record. General Meese, to give some sense of the 
enormity of what you were doing, the pace at which you 
were operating and the seriousness of it during that hectic 
three-diy period, because there will be Monday morning 
quarterbacking, as you well know, for years to come on 
this. I would close with that opportunity for you to 
take. 




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HELSSSfifS' 



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A I thought it was a very serious matter. i was very 
concerned and disappointed that people had violated, if you 
will, or certainly misused their positions and had done 
things that were not authorized and opposed to the policies 
of the President. 

And I was very much concerned, particularly, that 
this matter be made public as rapidly as possible and 
that since there had been wrongdoing, at least in the sense 
of not following the President's directions or doing things 
that were not authorized, that this be — that there be 
absolutely nothing done that would give any appearance of a 
cover-up. 

And so most of the things that were done were done 
with that in mind, to get the facts to the attention of the 
Congress, to the attention of the public as rapidly as 
possible and then to take the necessary actions, first of 
all, that the President would make clear that the people 
who were involved would be releaved of duty. 

Secondly, in the course of our conversations that 
he take the necessary steps to make sure that this would 
not happen again, which would involve the appointment of the 
Tower Commission, a special review board, and thirdly, 
that we take the necessary steps to be sure that if there was 
any wrongdoing in a criminal sense that this was looked at 
also. 




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203 



I had already started those wheels in motion on 
Monday and then we continued with the involvement of the 
Criminal Division initially to inquire whether there was a 
justification for them to become formally involved and turning 
it over to a criminal investigation and ultimately seeking 
an independent counsel. 

Q Were you satisfied the three people on your team 
that you were directing were working as hard as they could 
and as best as they could to get to the bottom of this 
matter? 

A Absolutely. That was our whole purpose was to 
initially get the facts and to see what was actually going 
on and then as we determined that the unauthorized activities 
had taken place to be sure we got to the bottom of that and 
got that information out as quickly as possible. 

Q Is it safe to assume it is your testimony you did 
the best you could personally in conducting and overseeing 
this investigation, not investigation, but this fact- 
finding inquiry? 

A Yes. As a matter of fact, I think that is 
substemtiated by the fact that we got to the bottom of the 
entire scheme and when I revealed it to the public on the 
25th of November that the basic outlines of what was involved 
have continued to prevail through now several months of 
detailed investigate) ^ ^ WtfW U 'I 'J ! ' jN i" '' P«ople, the 



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204 



Tower Commission, the committees on the Hill, the Select 
Committee now, and so on, and the basic situation as we 
revealed on that day still prevails as what happened. 

Now, there has been a lot of additional information 
as to bank accounts and extrapolations of other things to fill 
out the bare bones of what we presented, but the essential 
scheme that we presented on that day of what had happened 
still remains intact as an accurate portrayal of what occurred. 

Q Let me take this opportunity for the House Minority 
to thank you for your generous time today, and noting for the 
record it is 3:58, I turn it over with no further ado 
to my colleague from the Senate. 






KlASSIVi 



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BY MR. MC 
Q With a little bit of luck, we will be out of here 

by 5:00 o'clock. ' ■ 

Let me get a little bit of background, if I could, 
on your rola and status with the NSC and NSPG in general. 
You have ueen a member of the NSC for how long? 

A I have been a member of the NSC since the first day 
in office when the President asked me to serve as his 
counselor. One of the duties that he provided or asked me 
to undertake, or it was agreed I would do, was be a member 
of the NSC as an appointed member of the President. By a 
member of the NSC, that includes being a member of the NSPG. 

Q You have drawn a distinction between the NSC and 
NSC staff. Would you elaborate on that? 

A The National Security Council — let's go back -- 
was initially composed in 1981 of the statutory members, the 
President, the Vice President, the Secretary of Defense, and 
the Secretary of State; the two statutory advisors, the 
Director of Central Intelligence, and the Chairman of the 
Joint Chiefs of Staff, and two appointed members: Jim Baker 
and myself as counselor to the President. 

in 1985, when I left the White House, the Presiden 
asked me to continue as a member of the National Security 
council. He also asked Jim Baker, as the Secretary of the 
Treasury, to continue, and he asked Don Regan, as the new 



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206 

Chief of Staff, to 'continue, to become a member of the Nationc 
Security Council. There was no one who took my place per 
se as counselor to the President, so the National Security 
Council was then composed of nine members. 

Q And that would be the National Security Council — 
A Then the staff, there is a staff headed by 
Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs, 
who in 1981 was Dick Allen, in 1982 was Bill Clark, in 



19 



sometime later, but was present in 1985, was Bud 



McFarlane, and in 1986 was John Poindexter, and it is 
presently Frank Carlucci. 

Q Are there regularly scheduled meetings of the NSPG 
and NSC? Do they fall on certain days of the week? 

A They generally fall on — there is generally at 
least one, sometimes two, and occasionally three meetings a 
week of the National Security Council or National Security 
Planning Group. 

Q Is there a regular day for them? 

A There is not a regular day, but usually they fall 
on Tuesdays and either Thursdays or Fridays, often Tuesday 
and Friday. 

Q The reason I am exploring that in some depth with 
you is if we go to January 6 of 1986, which is on Monday, you 
reflect on your calendar, and I just pulled this out of the 
unredacted copies, at 11:00 o'clock ap NSC meeting, 

"^i:r " 



208 




^^ ._ 207 

1 I A Yes. 

2 Q I believe it is your testimony there was an NSC 

3 meeting on Tuesday, January 7, at which the Iran Initiative 

4 was first discussed? 

5 A That is correct. NSC or NSPG, I am not sure which. 

6 January 6, there was an NSC meeting, and there was another 

7 one on January 7. It says NSC meeting, although I believe it 

8 was held in the Situation Room. It was an NSPG meeting on 

9 Tuesday, the 7th. 

10 Q ' It was an NSC on Monday, the 6th, and an NSPG 

11 meeting on Tuesday, the 7th? 

12, A Yes. And probably the reason for having so many 

13 that week is we were just back from the Christinas Holidays, 

14 and so there had obviously been some things that had piled 

15 up. 

16 Q Is there any difference in staff attendance between) 

17 the NSC and NSPG meeting? 

18 A Yes. An NSC meeting was normally held in the 

19 Cabinet Room and would normally include the principals and 

20 one other person from each of the departments involved. At 

21 NSC meetings, you would sometimes have additional agencies. 

22 Por example, if it was something having to do with nuclear 

23 matters, we would often have the Secretary of Energy. If 

24 it was something having to do with general foreign policy 

25 matters, we would often have the USIA, United states 



IIMPI flWWll 



209 




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208 

Information Agency, particularly if it had to do with a 
Presidential visit or a foreign Head of State here. 

Whereas an. NSPG meeting was always smaller. It was 
principals only. Very rarely would there be number two peopl^ 
from the departments. 

Q Would staff members of the NSC regularly attena 
the NSPG meetings? 

A NSPG meetings, there would be a restricted staff 
from the NSC, maybe two or three members, whereas at an 
NSC meeting, you normally have five or six members, and 
more White House staff members at NSC meetings. 

Q Taking a look again at this schedule for Monday, 
January 6, there is a meeting at 3:45, I believe it says 
"EM, DLJ and — 

A And Oliver North. 

Q That is written in hand, as opposed to typed in. 

A Yes. 

Q Can you glean anything from the fact it was 
entered by hand? 

A Yes, the fact it was not originally on the schedule 
when the schedule was typed. In this meeting at 4:20 p.m. 
on the 4th of January, which was the previous Friday, and 
that it was added probably on Monday morning or sometime 
during the day on Monday. ^ 

Q In that regard, an<^*^v«hptriafev have made an extra 



at regard,. andp^L- «nptrii 

U^ ni feirit 



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copy of this, but I did not, let me show you a telephone 
log. This was supplied to us. Please forgive the high- 
lighting, if you would. 

A That's all right. Right. 

Q That reflects a phone message that came into you 
that day, does it not? 

A Yes. 

Q What does it say? 

A The phone message says "Oliver North called, he 
left", it says that he spoke with Mr. Meese, and they 'are 
to have a meeting this afternoon with Admiral Poindexter. 

Q What time did that phone message come up? 

A That came in at 12:25 in the afternoon. 

Q Would that explain why there was a handwritten 
entry on your calendar? 

A Yes, but it wouldn't explain why Admiral Poindexter 
never got there. 

Q That was going to be my next question. The entry 
on your calendar doesn't mention Admiral Poindexter. 

A No. And many times that entry could be put on 
there after they actually showed up, because you see under- 
neath there, it looks like written in pencil, or something, 
was some kind of a meeting, it's hard to say, some kind of 
meeting, it says a half hour at 4:15. So I am not sure. 
I guess that refers to another entry. 



ilMUlSt 



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1 I don't know whether that was put in after they 

2 got there as a record of them being there or whether that 

3 was put in in advance. 
* Q Let me indicate to you that Colonel North's calendai 

5 reflects that he was present at what he called a NSPG 

6 meeting at 11:00 o'clock on Monday morning. With that piece 
f of information, with the telephone message indicating that 

8 he had spoken to you and was going to be coming to your 

9 office io the afternoon, does that refresh your recollection 

10 at all as to any of the substance of the meeting, or it 

11 occurring that day? 

12 A The meeting at 3:45? 
13" Q Yes. 

14 A No, it doesn't. 

'15' Q You still don't have an independent recollection? 

16 A I still don't have an independent recollection exce 

17 what I have been told. 

18 Q Can you recall any other occasions on which Mr. 

19 North would have been present in your office? 

20 A 1 remember, I believe he came to my office to 

21 talk about obtaining DEA assistance in finding informants 

22 who might be helpful with the location of the hostages. 

23 Q Any other — other than those, the one occasion 

24 you can't recall and this DEA occasion, do you recall any 

25 11 other instances? 






212 



-rTV, vi^ 




211 

1 A I don't recall any. There may have been one or 

2 two^ or if you -- 

3 Q Can we assume Mr. Jensen would not have been 
* present at the DEA meeting? 

5 A He might have been, I don't recall. I don't 

6 recall whether that happened while he was still my deputy. 
.7 Q Turning to the January 7 to January 17 period, 

8 this is the period after you first learned of the Iranian 

9 Initiati^^ and before or up to the drafting of the finding 

10 itself, were there discussions at that time of the relative 

11 merits or demerits of an indirect sale versus a direct sale? 

12 That is, making the sale of missiles to Iran through an 

13 intermediary, like Israel, as opposed to the United States 

14 selling then directly to Iran? 

15 A My recollection was that the plan was always to 

16 sell the weapons through, transfer the weapons through Israel 

17 and- that there were discussions as to different ways of 

18 accoraplishlng that through intermediaries. For example, on 

19 the financing and all that sort of thing, how that would be 

20 done, whether that would be done directly through transfers 

21 from the Army, whether they be third-party lat«rm«di«rl«9 or 

22 something like that. I think there were various alternatives 

23 looked at. 

24 Q The distinction I am trying to draw is between the 

25 United States. tf;»n^iferrinawM^ns, setting aside foreign 



213 



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sending weapons directly to Iran in distinction to Israel 
supplying Iran with its weapons and the United states 
replenishing Israel's stock. Was there a distinction drawn 
along those lines? 

A My recollection was that Israel was always to be 
involved, but it may have been discussed, there may have been 
discussions, I just don't recall there were discussions of 
the United States transferring weapons directly to Iran. My 
best recollection is that they always went through Israel, 
and most of the discussions had to do with going through 
Israel . 

Q Did any of the discussions have to do with Israel 
selling their own arms, in their possession, to Iran and the 
United States selling arms to Israel? 

A I can't recall now in January, because I can't 
recall — it is sort of blurred in my mind between what I 

learned later about what had taken place in 1985 and what the) 

I 

plan was for 1986. 

Q I think we can agree the 1985 deals took place 
that way, that is Israel sold their arms to Iran, and we 
replenished their stocks? 

A Yes. And it may be in 19 ~ when the plan was 
suggested to us in January of 1986, my best recollection 
is that the weapons were always going to, that the weapons 
may have started in the United States and then gone to 



214 



Tl^/ L!H§x/f f rSJ 



213 

1 Israel and then gone to Iran rather than the use of Israeli 

2 weapons, but I can't recall for sure. 

3 Q Do you recall any legal distinction or legal 

4 significance to the difference between those two trans- 

5 actions, particularly under the Arms Export Control Act? 

6 A Yes. I think that may have been discussed, and 

7 it was in that context that there was discussion if the 

8 President used the National Security Act, it really didn't 

9 matter b^sed upon the William French Smith opinion. 

10 Q And was the deal structured to allow the sale to go 

11 under the National Security Act, as opposed to the Arms 

12 Export Control Act? 

13 A That is my recollection, yes. 

14 Q And was it structured in that fashion in part or in 

15 toto because the Arms Export Control Act required congress- 

16 ional notification, whereas the National Security Act, at 

17 least, allowed a little bit of leeway as far as notification? 
13 A That was a consideration, yes. 

19 Q Was that your idea or your suggestion? 

20 A No, I believe that suggestion caune from the CIA, 
2i from Bill Casey, because I was asked, I was not asked for 

22 any original legal advice on the subject. It was more a 

23 matter of asking me to concur with a plan that had already 

24 been developed, both a legal plan and operational plan that 

25 had been developed by CIA and/or the NSC staff. 



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Q And in context of shaping the deal under the 
National Security Act, as opposed to the Arms Export Control 
Act, you don't recall any discussion of prior sales that mighi 
have been done through Israel? | 

A I don't recall any such discussion, no. Prior to 
1986 you are talking about? 

Q Yes. . . 

A No. 

Q Did you ever feel that it was your role to follow 
up on the arms transactions in any way to ensure any 
congressional notification was in fact done? 

A No. 

Q Who, if anyone, would have been responsible for 
doing that? 

A Well, the responsibility would have been someone in 
the National Security Council staff or someone in the CIA, 
probably th« National Security Council staff. 

Q We talked a little bit about the Southern Air 
Transport investigation, emd I want to focus on a couple 
specific points there. At the time Admiral Poindexter called 
you to discuss this Southern Air Transport investigation, 
you were aware, I think you said, that the Hasenfus plane 
had gone down in Nicaragua. 

A I believe I was generally, yes. , 

Q And you were aware, were you not, that there was. 



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that what the, that the investigation was focusing on the 
ownership and financing of that resupply flight? 

A I didn't really have much information as to what 
the investigation involved. I knew there was generally an 
investigation, I didn't know the details of it at all, 

Q You knew that the allegation at least was that the 
plane had been resupplying the contras, is that fair to say? 

A My best recollection is that it had something to 
do with the J contras, yes. 

Q At that time, you also were aware, were you not, 
that Colonel North was, I don't want to say this in a way 
that is loaded, but I want to say actively involved in the 
contra account for the National Security Council. Is that a 
fair statement? 

A I guess I knew that. I guess I knew that he was 
involved in the whole, in the Central American and particular 
ly the Nicaraguan situation, yes. ., 

Q And you knew there had been allegations in the 
press that, in fact. Colonel North was running the resupply 
operation? 

A I don't recall whether I knew that at the time or 
not, whether I paid much attention to that or not. 

Q Let me just show you a few newspaper articles from 
late '85 and just take a look at them, if you could, for a 
moment and see if you recall seeing any of-t tu» i ii .At .^ h g time 



Vi^^fjsb'^f^ 



217 



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1 or being aware of the allegations that were being made. 

2 Let's have them marked. Deposition Exhibit 2, which would 

3 be an article dated August 9, 1985, called "Role in Nicaragua 

4 Described by U.S., Administration Says Contacts With Rebels 
i'l 5 Were Legal." 

6 A Incited the 9th of August. 

7 Q It goes on to describe a White House official 
6 making statements about the administration's involvement 
9 and mentioning the NSC being involved in it. 

: -to A I am sure I was generally knowledgeable of this, 

11 yes. 
< ,-. 12 ■; 's: Q I am not going to take you through several of the 

13 other articles, u, •.; • 
3-^14- ■ -i (Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.) 

15!; . BY MR. McGOUGH: 

, r;^- 16 Q Is it fair to say there was something of a contro- 

.^ 17 versy about the NSC's role, subject of controversy over the 

18 NSC's role or alleged role in relationship to the contras 

19 throughout the latter part of 1985 and on into 1986? 

20 A Yes, I knew there was a political controversy and 
s 21 differences of opinion generally between the administration 

22 and some people in the Congress. . r ; .^ 
-.-.v^, .; Q And Admiral Poindexter called you and asked you 

-i 24 to postpone or to put off portions of the SAT investigation 

■ 25 because they were involved in the Iran Initiative. Is that 



218 






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fair to say? . , . ; . 

A That is correct. I knew Southern Air Transport, 
or I gues3 I assumed, or maybe he told me they were a 
proprietary line of CIA. 

Q Were you aware at that time that Colonel North was 
involved in the Iranian Initiative? 

A I don't know whether I was or not. 

Q He was the one who met with you on January 6, was 
he not? 

A Yes, he was. So I was aware that he was involved, 
yes. , . 

Q At that time, did you make any connection between 
the NSC's role with the contras and the NSC's role with the 
Iranian Initiative because it involved the same carrier? 

A No. I assumed that the carrier being a CIA 
proprietary was being used for the Iranian operation, and 
that that had no connection with anything in Central America. 

Q Did you attempt to limit, I want to say limit the 
limitation, but that is a double negative. Did you attempt 
to allow the investigation to go forward as to the contra 
side but have the investigation stopped or postponed as to 
the Iranian side? 

A My understanding was the investigation was not 
involving the Iranian side, that there was an investigation 
in existence. I knew very little about what they were 



219 



218 



1 investigating. The impression I got from Admiral Poindexter 

2 was that people in Southern Air Transport, that the FBI was 

3 trying to investigate people or that they were trying to 

4 get records, and that it was necessary for the people who 

5 were involved in Southern Air Transport to be used or to be 

6 active in something relating to the Iranian Initiative during 

7 that period of time, and, therefore, he asked for a short 

8 delay, a few days' delay in the FBI investigation. 
9.. So what I did was ask Steve Trott, who is my 

10 Associate Attorney General and who handles those things with 

11 the FBI and other law enforcement agencies, to find out whethn 

12 a few days' delay could be accomplished without in any way 

13 hindering or endangering the investigation because of 

14 Southern Air Transport's participation in a project for the 

15 National Security Council staff. And so he did that and was 

16 advised by the Director of the FBI they could delay their 

17 investigation a few days without hindering that phase of the 
IS investigation for a few days without hindering the investiga 
'fg tion, so it was done. 

20 Q ^^^ y°u ever been contacted by the NSC regarding a 

21 pending criminal investigation prior to that time? 

22. A Not that I can recall. 

23. Q Let's just, to complete it, I don't want to come 

24 into 1987, but up until January 1, 1987, have you been con- 

25 tacted by the NSC? 



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A Not that I can recall. 

Q Was any attempt, or did you ever hear of an 
investigation into a company called Maule Air Company? 
They manufacture small planes and are located in Atlanta, 
Georgia. 

A Not that I remember. 

Q I would like to focus on one other investigation, 
if I could, and that is an investigation that has gone under 
a number of names. Therehas been quite a bit of press about 
it. This is the Neutrality Act assassination plot case out 
of the Southern District of Florida, which involved original- 
ly an alleged attempt to assassinate Ambassador Teunbs, and 
evolved into a Neutrality Act investigation and a gun- 
running investigation. There has been a fair amount of 
press. There have been newspaper allegations that Leon 
Kelner, the United States Attorney in the Southern District 
of Florida, received instructions from Main Justice to slow 
dotm this investigation. 

Can you tell me, or do you recall when you first 
became aware of that case? 

A I can't remember exactly, but I became aware of it 
through the press. I can't remember exactly when in terms 
of a date. I do )cnow that I wa» aware of it at the time 
that Z was in Miami to visit some FBI agents who, had been 
-**■<* thtt date in regard to that particular 



221 



1 incident whenever that occurred, because I was there visit- 

2 ing these wounded FBI agents, and Leon Kelner was there with 

3 me, along with FBI people from Mieuni. 

4 In the course of leaving the hospital, walking to 

5 the elevator, Lowell Jensen and I were there together, and 

6 I asked him if there was such an investigation going on, and 

7 it related — the way I knew it was — it related to 

8 allegedly contras being involved with gun-running and 

9 possibly with drugs. 

10 And I asked him if there was such an investigation 

11 going, he told me that there was. And that's about the sum 

12 total of my contact with him on the subject or my knowledge 

13 of the investigation. 

14 Q I think the record will show that your visit to 

15 Miami took place on or about April 10, 1986, and it was in 

16 connection with FBI agents who were shot. Do you recall who 

17 first told you about the case? 

^3 A I think it was in thepress, if I remember correctly 

19 that X first learned it. 

20 Q Here you ever contacted, or did you ever speak to 

21 anyone at the NSC about that? 

22 A Not that I recall. 

23 Q Do you recall seeing any written materials, any 

24 written reports on the case? 

25 AX may have. X can't recall now seeing it. That isj 



222 



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221 

1 not the same case Mr. Conyers was asking about, is it? 

2 Q I am not sure what Mr. Conyers was asking about. 

3 MR. LEON: You testified earlier to that. 

4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

5 MR. LEON: Let :ne check my notes. 

6 MR. MATTHEWS: That was regarding the downing of 

7 the Hasenfus plane. 

8 THE WITNESS: I don't recall, but I may have seen 

9 reports on it. 

10 BY MR. McGOUGH: 

11 Q Do you recall meeting with Lowell Jensen in late 

12 March of 1986 and discussing the advisability of briefing 

13 Admiral Poindexter? 

14 A I don't recall it now. It is possible I may have, 

15 I don't know. 

15 Q Have you recently, within the last three or four 

17 months, discussed that event with Mr. Jensen? 

13 A No, I have not. At least I don't recall discussing 

19 it with hiffl. 

20 Q Is the problem the timing — do you ever recall 

21 discussing that? 

22 A I have no recollection of discussing that matter 

23 with Lowell Jensen at all. 

24 Q And that includes discussing it retrospectively, 

25 that is Judge Jensen saying to you, "Do vou remember the 



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meeting we had where we discussed briefing Admiral Poindextei 
on the case?" ■•• • - - 

A I don't recall that. 

Q To your knowledge, has Admiral Poindexter ever 
contacted you about that case? 

A Not that I can recall. 

Q To your knowledge, did anyone at the NSC ever con- 
tact you on that case? ,; 



Not that I can recall. 



Q To your knowledge, did you or anyone at the Depart- 
ment of Justice indicate to Mr. Kelner or anyone in his 
office that they ought to slow down their investigation or 
be dilatory or otherwise see to it that any charges or 
investigation in the case was delayed? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q Would you have recalled such instructions if in 
fact you were aware of them? 

A I believe I irould. 

Q Do you recall ever discussing the case with Mark 
Richards or Stephen Trott? 

A I don't recall it. I might have. 

Q Do you recall ever instructing any of your 
subordinates to brief the NSC on any pending investigation? 

A 
to do that, no. 



I don't recall directing or instructing anybody 



m:\ il^EIHoj 



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Q Let's go baclc to the conversation you had with Leon 
Kelner. I believe you said you asked him if there was such 
a case. Do you recall what his response was? 

A I think they did have such a case and were in- 
vestigating It, words to that effect is my best recollection. 



jglKSSs^i 



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6A 1 Q Do you recall anything else about that conversation? 
CAS-1 2 A No. It was a very brief conversation on the way 

3 to the elevator or in the elevator. 

4 Q Do you have any fixed recollection of Mr. Jensen 

5 being present during that conversation? 

6 A I believe he was. I am not absolutely positive, 

7 but I am pretty sure he was. 

8 Q Did you discuss any other cases with Mr. Kelner? 

9 A Not that I can recall. 

10^ Q Why did you single that case out? 

11 A Just because it was getting a lot of publicity 

12 at the time and I was curious whether there was such a case, 

13 or whether there was such an investigation going on. 

14 : Q Did Mr. Kelner ask you for any advice or guidance 
1'. . 15 on the case? 

16 A Not that I can recall. If he had, I would have 

17 said. handle it like any other case. 

18 Q Prior to that time, had you ever met Mr. Kelner? 

19 A Oh, I am sure !.'> had, yes. He was, I think he 

20 was an Assistant U.S. Attorney while Stanley Marcus was there 

21 and then he became U.S. Attorney, if I remember correctly. 

22 Did you ever have any substantive discussions with 

23 him about any cases in his office other than — 

24 A I visited the office down there and discussed 

25 *■ whole lot of cases ^ith bi^^t .^u ^oqw, the usual review I 



226 



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do when I go around visiting U.S. Attorneys' offices. 

Q You say "with them", Mr. Kelner? 

A I think he was the assistant in charge in the office 
at that time or one of the assistants when I visited that 
office down there. 

Q What about after he became U.S. Attorney, do you 
recall having any substantive discussions of cases with him 
at that time? 

A ^ may have. I don't recall specifically. 

Q Do you recall on your trip to Miami who rode with 
whom? 

I understand Mr. Kelner met you at the airport 
and you traveled to several hospitals. 

A We traveled to two hospitals. I don't remember who 
was in the car with me now. It may have been Mr. Jensen 
or it may have been one of the FBI agents. It may have been 
Mr. Kelner. I think it was probably either Mr. Jensen 
or one of the FBI, one of the special agents in charge. 

Do you ever recall discussing with anyone the 
political implications of that investigation? 
,??>, A Not that I can recall. 

.y^'' Q DO you ever recall discussing with anyone the 
impact that the investigation might have on any vote in 
Congress? .' 

A No. I don't recall such a discussion of that nature. 



227 




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Q After your conversation with Mr. Kelner, do you 
recall receiving any further information or briefings on that 
case? 

A I may have. I don't have a specific recollection 
now. I may have, as I would with any cases. 

Q Have you spoken to Mr. Kelner since April 10, 
1986? 

A Oh, yes. At the U.S. Attorney Conference and other 
meetings, I am sure I have seen him on a number of 
occasions. 

Q Have you ever spoken to him about this matter? 

A Not that I can recall. 

Q Have you ever spoken to him about his frustration 
or anger over the press allegations that arose out of the 
investigation? 

A I don't remember speaking to him about that. It is 
possible that I did one of the times I have seen him. But I 
don't remember it. 

Q Were you aware that the FBI agents and the 
Assistant United States Attorney had gone to Costa Rica on 
that case? 

A I don't believe so, no. I don't recall ever having 
learned that. 

Q Was this the type of case that you would, feel it 
was necessary to alert the NSC to? 



228 



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A I don't recall ever alerting the NSC and I don't 
recall any basis on why we would alert them. 

Q There was nothing about the case that you can 
recall that would have required a heads-up or a briefing 
to the NSC? 

A Not that I can recall. I think if anything like 
that would have happened, it would have been recommended or 
suggested by somebody in the Criminal Division or by the 
Associate Attorney General or Deputy Attorney General. I 
don't have any recollection of that. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Can I ask one follow-up on that? 

Do you recall what did Mr. Kelner tell you the 
progress of the investigation was? 

In other words, was he ready to go to grand jury? 
Was it just beginning? Had he indicted? 

THE WITNESS: I don't have a specific recollection. 
My best recollection is that he told me that it was an 
investigation, that they were just in the process of looking 
into it or something like that, but I can't tell you 
specifically. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Did he mention any subjects of the 
investigation? 

THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe so. At least, I 
don't recall it. And not any names that would have made any 
difference to nw anyway. 






229 



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MS. NAUGHTON: Did he indicate that he had been m 
touch, with the Department of Justice about the case prior to 
your inquiring about it? 

THE WITNESS: I don't recall whether he did or not. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you. 

BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q General Meese, let me go to the fact-finding as it 
has become known, and I have just a very limited group of 
questions 90 that and they relate to when and how the 
records were secured at the NSC. 

Can you recall the -- or can you put a date or 
time on your first instructions to anyone to secure the records 
of the NSC? 

A Well, first of all, on Saturday our people had 
looked at all the records during their review that took place 
throughout the day on Saturday. Then on Tuesday, when we 
commenced a criminal investigation, we asked that the 
records, I asked my deputy — we have a procedure here that 
any time there is a criminal case or any litigation case of 
any sort, the contact between the Justice Department and the 

White House is between the Deputy Attorney General and the 

V 

White House counsel, and so I asked the Deputy Attorney 
General as a matter of routine to make sure that the files 
of the NSC, the documents pertaining to this matter, were 
secured as part of the initiation of criminal inquiry. 



230 



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Q What do you^S^n~Dy 

A Well, to make sure they would be intact and held 
intact for further investigation. 

Q You would want to exclude access or prevent access 
by, for example, Oliver North? 

A Well, I wouldn't have said Oliver North, 
necessarily, specifically, but any, that to maintain — to 
ensure that the documents were maintained intact so they would 
be looked at by investigators in the future. 

Q And when do you recall making that decision? 

A Some time in the early afternoon of Tuesday, the 
25th, when we brought the Criminal Division people into 
it for the first time. 

Q Was there a delay of some kind in getting them 
secured? 

A My understanding was that the Deputy Attorney 
General, there was some misunderstanding on the part of the 
Deputy Attorney General about the immediacy of doing that, but 
that later on in the afternoon he did make calls to the 
White House, and I don't know whether — I believe those calls 
were returned the following day and that he passed on those 
directions to the White House counsel and the White House 
counsel indicated they had already taken that precaution. 

Q Do you know when, in fact, the records were 
physically secured? "■ " '■ -'^ 



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2 30 

No , I do no€'. 

MR. LEON: Can I follow-up on that? 

MR. McGOUGH: Sure. 

MR. LEON: Mr. Cooper testified, I believe, that you 
showed a rare reaction of being upset. Apparently it is not 
your custom to show, at least facially, ./henever you are 
upset with someone. Apparently you were upset it hadn't been 
done right away. When you directed Deputy Burns to get , 
it done the second time that day, you evidenced the fact you wei 
upset about it. Is that accurate? 

THE WITNESS: It is possible. I don't remembier 
now. 

MR. LEON: The reason I ask is I would like you to 
share for the record your sense of urgency in getting it 
done right away. Did you feel Tuesday afternoon when you 
thought you had clearly explained you wanted it done, did 
you feel at that time it was urgent it be done and you wanted 
it done right away? 

THE WITNESS: I felt it was urgent in the sense we 
had people who had been relieved of duty over there and people 
would be leaving the White House and I felt a sense of 
urgency then. Plus the fact we were now in the process of 
commencing a criminal investigation so you want that done 
right away when that happens . , 

MR. LEON: When you left that meeting, you believed 



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anyway that was going to be done right away, did you not? 
THE WITNESS: That is right. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: ! • 
Q When you were interviewing Mr. McFarlane and he 
took you aside, could yuu put on the record exactly what it 
was he said to you in this aside? 

A Well, I can't recall exactly what he said, but it was 
to the effect that I think he had given a speech or 
something in which he had taken a lot of the blame for the 
Iranian initiative or the arms transfer to Iran. That 
I am a little uncertain of, is exactly what he said about 
that. But I do generally recall that he said something 
about the fact he wanted me to know the President was 
generally behind this whole thing. 

There was no doubt in the mind of the President 
this was the thing to do, to go along with this 
initiative, and that — and it was in that sense that I said 
th« most important thing was to be sure we got the whole 
truth out, that we got the truth, and that he should not 
try to shade this one way or the other thinking he was 
protecting the President. 

Q Did you have any reason to believe at that point he 
might be shading it one way or the other? 

A It was his hesitancy when he was talking about. 



and his inabilitjj^|^p|.e^|JJ5^^5^^ 



hat the President had 



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sa.'*' 2 32 

said in those meetii^s during the summer of 1985. He 
appeared hesitant at that time. In my mind, I felt 
perhaps he was trying to shield the President in some 
way. I explained to him what was really important was to 
tell the truth and let the facts come out as they existed. 
And that he shouldn't try to figure out what would help the 
President or not help the President. 

I said something to the effect, for example, if the 
President .had approved it, that might help rather than . 

hurt. 

Q Did he say anything specifically about protecting 

the President to the best of your recollection? 

A Not about protecting the President, but when he said 

he wanted me to know the President was fully behind this, 

it, he was much more vociferous about that aspect than he had 

been when he talked to us about it earlier on when he gave his 

narrative account. 

Q Mr. Leon pointed out at the outset of your interview 
with colonel North you gave him a little lecture about 
telling the truth and not trying to protect the President or 
putting a spin on it. Had you given that same kind of lecture 
to Mr. McFarlane at the outset of his interview? 
,". '^X No, I don't believe I had. 
^'*> ' Q What changed? .' 

A well, it wasn't the fact -- I was concerned people 



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would think they were doing -- that people in their own mind 
might think they ought to protect the President or minimize 
his role or otherwise do something out of a misguided sense 
of loyalty and I just wanted to be sure we set that aside so 
we got the facts because that was the best thing for the 
President, was to get all the truth out, to make that clear. 

So when I said it to Ollie North, I said that so 
that nobody would pull any punches on the thing and we would 
get the f^cts out. ' 

That . was the best way we could help the President. 

Q I believe you said Mr. Reynolds and Mr. Richardson 
reported to you they found several versions of the 
diversion memo, only one of which had the diversion in it. 

A They told me they had found what appeared to be 
the same basic memo or same type of memo, but only one of which 
had the proposal for the diversion of funds, yes, 

- Q Did that lead you or them at that time to suspect 
alteration of documents? 

A No, it didn't. It rather — I don't believe 
anybody mentioned that at the time, I don't recall. There 
was more than likely various versions of the same proposal, 
some of which included the diversion of funds and others which 
didn't. 

MR. LEON: Mr. McFarlane in that Friday afternoon. 
General, he didn't in any way sugges^.to you, did he, he 



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234 

1 knew about a diversion of funds to the contras? 

2 THE WITNESS: Not at all. 

3: MR. LEON: You were ]ust making reference to his 

4 speech and that he had made a speech. I don't want to have any 

5 uncertainty in the record. He didn't indicate to you he had 

6 made a speech where he acknowledged responsibility for 

7 diversion, had he? 

8 THE WITNESS: No. He had acknowledged responsibility 

9 for the plan of arms transfers and the plan that related to 

10 the Iranian initiative. 

11 BY MR. McGOUGH: 

12 Q In your meeting with Mr. Casey on Saturday night 

13 at his home, at that point you were aware there was a 

14 diversion memo. I think you said you recalled Mr. Casey 

15 saying something about the Canadians alleging funds from the 

16 arms sale had been used for Israeli or U.S. Government 

17 projects. 

18 A Israeli or U.S. projects. 

19 Q Did you press him at that point to determine 

20 whether the U.S. projects he was talking about were the 

21 same U.S. projects referred to in the diversion memo? 

22 A No, I didn't, particularly because it didn't appear 

23 to me they were, and also it appeared this was more of a, if 

24 you will, a coercion tactic by the Canadians or th$ people 

25 to whom the money was owed. SVi^- 'i^fc 5-,.;., 



\:imj\ ^:^.^^:uiM 



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CAS-12 ' Q Why did it appear to you they weren't the same 
projects? ' 

A There was nothing there to indicate they were 
and he indicated to me this was much more, they were ]ust 
trying to coerce the United States to make up the money that 
they were owed. 

Q But you were aware at that point Oliver North was 
connected with both the contra account and the Iranian account 
and the N^C? 

A I am not sure I was that aware of it until we talked 
with him about it. 

Q You knew he was the person in the NSC responsible 
for the Central American issue? 

A Z knew that, yes. 

Q I think we agreed you knew about the press 
allegations about his supervision of the contra supply 
network? 

A That is true. 

Q By that time the Hasenfus plane had gone down; 
is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And now you had a memo that seemed to set forth the 
transfer of funds from the Iranian sale to the contras, and 
Colonel North had been involved with the Iranian s^le. By 
that time you knew pretty intimately: ^i« that fair to say? 



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A At that time I don't know we knew — we knew he 
had been involved. I don't know how much we knew he had been 
involved because I hadn't talked with him at that time but 
he certainly had been involved. 

Q What I am trying to probe is why when Mr. Casey 
said to you Israeli — and the money had been diverted or 
used for Israeli and U.S. Government projects, in light of 
having just found the diversion memo that morning, why it 
didn't, wt^y you didn't press him on whether the U.S. Go.vernment 
project included the contras? 

A Well, for one thing, until we talked with Ollie 
North and found out whether there was anything to this 
memo, I didn't want to reveal that fact to anyone, 
particularly anyone I was talking with who -- whom we might 
want to interview on this whole subject. 

Q Without revealing the fact, might not that have 
been an important question to ask in order to interview 
North the next day? 

A In the way in which Bill Casey told it to me, it 
didn't pertain to anything that would strike me as having to 
do with the contra project. It certainly didn't indicate 
any knowledge on the part of these men that there 
actually was something going on there. 

Q You discussed a little while ago that Colonel North 

ireas Admiral Poindexter 



was relieved oJ. diitv at, the N?C/, , whei 



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was allowed to resigW V?as there a proportionality of synch 
there at all? ^ . .^ -.^ r 

A Well, there was a big difference in their positions, 
and this was something that I really didn't participate much 
in, it was more White House people since they were White 
House personnel, but one thing was that Admiral Poindexter 
was a direct appointee, if you will, of the President, 
whereas Colonel North was detailed from the Marine Corps, 
and so there was a qualitative difference in their status 
within the White House. 

Q Did it have to do with their own individual status 
or did it have to do with the decision by someone at the 
White House, either in whole or part, a decision by 
someone in the White House that Colonel North was somehow 
more to blame for what happened than Admiral Poindexter or 
deserved a higher penalty? 

A I don't know. You would have to ask Don Regan 
that, I can't tell you. In my own mind, it was more the 
difference in their status, because people at Colonel North's 
level were transferred in and out all the time. 

Q When you interviewed — well, strike that. That 
has been answered. 

You indicated that you were not aware of any 
solicitation, any contributions by foreign countries to the 



contras. 






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A I may have been aware of it. I don't recall 
particularly being aware of it. It wasn't high in my 
consciousness. 

I may have been aware of it from reading the 
newspapers or hearing about it in the White House. 

Q Were you aware other than from the newspapers of 
any solicitation of contributions from foreign countries 
for the contras? 

A ,1 don't reall whether I was at that time or not. 
I, of course, have become aware since that time. I don't 
know whether my knowledge goes back that far or not. 

Q Were you ever asked for legal advice regarding the 
legalitites of solicitations? 

A Not that I recall. I doubt if I was, 
Q To your knowledge, were you ever asked to render 
legal advice regarding any aspect of the Boland Amendment 
in its various manifestations? 
A Not that I can recall. 

Q TO your knowledge, was the Department of Justice 
ever asked to render prospective legal advice on the 
Boland Amendment? 

v*A I don't recall that it was, and I would have to 
'inquire whether the Office of Legal Counsel was or not. 

Q Would these inquiries normally be brought to your 
attention or could they have coo. in and gone out without 



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1 your knowing about it? 

■ ■ ^ 

2 A They could have come in and gone out without my 

3 being conscious of it. I do get a report each week of 

4 new matters entertained by the Office of Legal Counsel 

5 which I scan most weeks, but I don't usually go over it in 

6 detail. 

7 Q Were you at any time aware of any Government 

8 official being involved with solicitations of private 

9 citizens, private individuals for contributions to the 

10 contras? 

11 A I don't recall that I was. 

12 Q Were you involved in any role Oliver North might 

13 have played in assisting organizations out of the 

14 National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, 

15 Mr. Channell's organization, or Mr. Miller's organization? 

16 A Well, the only thing that I can recall was 

17 inadvertently one time being asked by Dave Fisher, if that is 

18 one of the organizations — David Fisher, who had been a 

19 special assistant to the President or staff aid to the 

20 President, or something — asked me if I would be a guest at 

21 a dinner, or maybe the guest of honor at a dinner at an 

22 organization with a patriotic name was involved in, and he 

23 said that they were very supportive of the President's 

24 position on the contras and a lot of the other things the 

25 President was doing. "i^^ ^^^^Ot^ , 



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.S-17 1 And I said, yes, I would be glad to consider that 

2 And it was while that was apparently being considered, I 

3 don't know, we had gotten a formal invitation or whether 

4 it was just an informal inquiry, that all of this 

5 broke regarding David Fisher and Mr. Channell. 

6 Q And did you at that point defer or decline invitatiuus 

7 A Yes. We stopped any further consideration of that. 

8 Q Would it be possible to maybe dig that out for 

9 us so we c^n figure out who the organization was? 

10 A Sure. 

11 Q Miss Naughton asked you about a newspaper 

12 allegation that, or maybe perhaps you raised it yourself, 

13 a newspaper allegation a fellow in Texas said he had been 

14 referred to Colonel North or the NSC by you in order to 

15 assist the contras? 

16 A What I referred to was a newspaper article that 

17 someone, I don't know whether it was a man or womem, or 

18 I don't know where they were from, supposedly called my 

19 office while I was in the White House about supporting the 

20 contras or supporting our program in Central America, 

21 somewhere along that line, and they were referred by a 

22 secretary in my office to the NSC which in turn referred, the 

23 article said, referred them to Oliver North. That is why I 

24 know about them. ; 

25 Q Let me mark as an exhibit a latter dated 



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November 15, 198 3 from you to an individual by the name of 
Phillip Mabry, m-a-b-r-y. 

(Exhibit EM-3 was marked for identification.) 






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BY MR. McGOOGH: 
Q Do you recognize either this letter or the fellow 
to whom it is addressed or the organization? 

A I don't recognize the name of the organization or 
the letter other than thp fact it appears to have been writte: 
in the White House and appears to have been signed by me. 
I don't know whether that is my actual signature or a 
signature machine. 

Q , Can you tell from that whether you actually signed 
it or — 

A No, I can't. But if we got the original documents 
from the White House, which would show the tracking sheet, 
I could identify more about it. Do we have that at all? 
MR. McGOUGH: I don't. 
MR. LEON: I don't think we have. 
THE WITNESS: Could we get an extra copy of that? 
And we'll try to track it down. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q At or about this time, do you recall if there 
were any standing instructions in your office as 
to where inquiries regarding the Nicaraguan assistance to 
the contras should be referred? 

A I don't recall anything per se, anything relating 
to national security affairs normally would be referred 
automatically to the National Security Council staff. 



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Q As opposed to the State Department? 

A Yes. It would be referred to the National Security 
Council staff in the White House, and this looks like the 
kind of form letter normally used by the Correspondence 
Unit. I would doubt if I would ever see this letter. I 
would not dictate a letter like this. This looks like it is 
prepared by some staff member. 

Q It is not a memorable letter? 

A It looks like the form paragraphs I recognize as th 
kind of thing they would normally do on anything that came 
in that didn't pertain to our office. 

Q You may have answered this question. In regard to 
the Drug Enforcement Administration and Colonel North's 
request for authorization or assistance, can you put a time- 
frame on it at all, a date as to when he might have approach€ 
you initially? 

A I can't at this stage. I am sure we can probably 
establish that. 

Q Do you recall whether he did it in a face-to-face 
meeting here? 

A I think it was a face-to-face meeting either here 
or some place else. 

BY MR. LEON: 

Q Did Colonel North, in any of your meetings with 
him, if there was more than one, did he at any time 



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personally inform you that he was involved in some kind of a 
contra resupply effort down in Central America, anything 
along those lines? 

A I don't recall any such conversation with him. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q General Meese, let me focus you, if I could, on the 
evening of November 24, 1986. This would be the night 
before the press conference. Do you recall receiving word 
from anyone in the Department of Justice that a story about 
the diversion of funds to the contras was in the hands of a 
reporter and would be the subject of a news story the next 
day? 

A I don't recall that, no. I don't think there was 
one, so I am sure if it had been true, there would have been 
a story the next day. I don't recall it. 

MR. McGOUGH: I think that is all I have. 
MR. LEON: Let me follow up on that last point 
there. 

BY MR. LECN: 

Q Mr. Cooper indicated one of the major reasons why there was 
a heightened sense of urgency that weekend with regard to the 
issue is because, in discussing it with yourself and the othe 
members of the team, there was a realization that it had to 
be the President who made known this diversion, as opposed 
to others. ' ; s -.i ^ - ,-. i,-'~ ..' 






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A. Sure. 

Q Do you remember having those kinds of discussions 

generally with Mr. Cooper? 

A I am sure we did, because it was very important I 
felt that it be the President or the administration that 
got it out, and if it was otherwise, someone would always 
claim there was a cover-up or we were trying to conceal it, 
and obviously we were not. 

Q And that heightened the sense of urgency? 

A It heightened the sense of urgency, sure. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 

Q Do you recall meeting with Mr. McFarlane on the 
Drug Enforcement Administration, hostage situation, or speak- 
ing to him about it? 

A I don't recall it, although it's possible I did at 
one time. 

BY MS. NAUGHTOM: 

Do you recall what you would have said to Mr. 
McFarlane? 

A I say it is possible. I don't recall such a 
conversation. But he might have asked for the same kind of 
assistance that North did. I don't remember when that all 
occurred, so I don't remember whether he was the National 
Security Assistant or whether it was during Poindexter's 



time. 






247 




^ Q Was it your sense, when you were briefed by 

2 Colonel North, this was prospective; in other words, something 

3 was to happen, or to sanction something that you had already 
^ done? 

5 A No, it was my understanding it was to authorize 

6 something that was going to happen. 

7 Q On another topic, there was a case in the Southern 

8 District of Florida, a criminal development, by the name of 

9 Buse-Rosa who had been in Central America. Were you familiar 

10 with that case? 

11 A No, I don't believe so. I have heard about it 

12 recently, but I don't have any recollection of it now. 

13 Q Were you aware at the time of any participation by 

14 anyone in the Department of Justice with the NSC and Oliver 

15 North in discussing the potential sentence that General 

16 Buse-Rosa would serve? 

t7 A I don't recall it, and I don't recall any of the 

18 details of the case or what it was all about. 

19 • Q Was that case ever brought to your attention by 

20 anyone at the NSC staff? 

21' A Not that I remember. I can't recall it. I don't 

22 have any recollection of it, but I have heard that case 

23 mentioned recently. 

24 Q Do you remember in what connection? ,' 

25 A I don't remember in what connection. I believe in 



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connection with these hearings. 

Q There is another case, it goes by the name Zadeh 
out of Philadelphia. This is a fellow who portended to be a 
Saudi Prince with whom Oliver North was involved. Were you 
aware of that case while it was pending? 

A I don't recall it, no. 1 don't even recognize it 
now. 

Q Oliver North was interviewed by the FBI on that on 
other occasions. Were you ever made aware by the FBI, 
Department of Justice or NSC staff Oliver North had been 
interviewed? 

A I don't recall that. It is possible I might have 
gotten one of our routine memos on it. I get as many as 
half a dozen a day on those kinds of things. Usually if 
someone in the government is concerned, I may get a memo on 
it. I don't recall it. 

Q Do you recall, did Colonel North, Admiral 
Poindexter or anyone at the NSC complain to you or ask you to 
op«n any investigation against anyone for any reason? 

A Not that I can recall. 

Q Specifically, did either Admiral Poindexter or 
Colonel North ask you to investigate Colonel North's allega- 
tion people were vandalizing his property or killing his 
dog? 

A No, I don't recall anything along that line. I 



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think I would have remembered it. This wouldn't be some- 
thing we would get involved in anyway. It would be a local 
police matter. 

Q You are not aware the FBI had interviewed Colonel 
North with regard to any of these areas? 

A I was not aware of it, not that I can recall being 
aware of it. I might have heard something about it more 
recently, but not about the FBI being involved. 

Q ; Do you know Buck Revell? 

A Very well. 

Q Do you know what Buck Revell 's relationship is with 

Oliver North? 

A The only thing I know is that I think they served 
on committees of the NSC staff together, part of the 
National Security Council's working group structure. 

MR. LEON: TWIG? 

THE WITNESS: TWIG would probably be one. I know 
Buck serves on it. I don't know whether Oliver North 
served on it. ThaliLs the Terrorism Working Group. There may 
be other groups too. There is a whole galaxy of these kinds 
of groups. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Revell had shared 
any knowledge gained in criminal investigations With Colonel 



North? 



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A Not that I can remember having heard of, no. 

Q Do you know when Mr. Reveil was made aware of 
your weekend inquiry? 

A No, I don't. I know it probably would not have 
been later than the 26th, which was a Wednesday, because on 
that day I had alerted, I had alerted Bill Webster, and I 
don't know whether I tried to reach him on Tuesday evening, 
he was out of town I believe, or Wednesday morning, but I 
did reac)i him, I think, either at an airport or in Chicago or 
some place, and I an sure at that time at least he would have 
then contacted Buck Reveil, because I believe that afternoon 
Buck Reveil 's — one of the people working for Reveil, 
Floyd Clark, attended a meeting in which there was a meeting 
on this general matter. 

Q When you spoke to Director Webster on the 21st, 
did you ask him to keep this close and not to tell anyone 
that you ware conducting this inquiry? 

A I doubt it. I doubt if I did. I think he would ha 
more or less known that anyway. I don't think I specifically 
mentioned it. 

Q So you don't have any knowledge whether or not he 
told Buck Reveil about it? 

A No , I don ' t . 

Q There was testimony several months ago ."bef ore the 
Foreign Affairs Subcommittee in which Ambassador Whittlesey 



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stated she received calls in the fall of 1986 from Oliver 

North wanting help with some problem. Around the fall of 

•86 she also placed several calls to the Department of Justice 

yours, Mr. Cribb, and Mr. Reynolds. Do you know what those 

calls were about, do you recall? 

A I don't remember whether I talked with her or not. 

I don't have any recollection of talking with her, myself. 

She may have talked with others in the Department. 

Q Have you learned since what those calls were 
I 
about? 

A I can't tell you what those calls were about 
specifically. I do know at about that time we had an 
investigation or an inquiry going, it wasn't an investigation > 
actually, an inquiry going about some allegations that had 
been made through the State Department. 

Q And Independent Counsel was requested? 
A No, I think Independent Counsel was not requested. 
Q But it was a preliminary — 

A It was either a preliminary inquiry or an initial 
inquiry relating to a possible Independent Counsel investiga- 
tion, yes. 

Q And do you know, was she calling on that topic? 
Did you ever determine she was calling on that topic or 
another topic? » 

A I don't know because I don't know, I don't 



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remember whether I ever talked with her about anything. 



Q Have you spoken to her since? This would have 
been around October, 1986. 

A I can't remember whether I have talked to Faith 
Whittlesey since that time or not. I think she has been 
over here since. 

Q Mr. Reynolds tells us he recused himself from the 
decision whether to seek Independent Counsel. 

A I believe so. 

Q Do you know why he recused himself? 

A Because he may have a close relationship with 
Faith Whittlesey. It would mean that he would not partici- 
pate in the decision. So I don't know the basis for it 
specifically. 

MR. MATTHEWS: I hate to break in. It is a little 
past 5:00. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q I take it you did participate in the decision? 

A Yes. Ultimately I made the decision, but it was 
based upon the recommendations of the Criminal Division we 
not seek an Independent Counsel. 

Q Was that a decision of the Public Integrity 
Section? 

A I know it was the senior career prosecutor in the 
Criminal Division and the Assistant Attorney General in 



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1 charge of the Criminal Division. I would have to look and 

2 see all the memoranda to find out what other recommendations 

3 were made. 

4 Q Given that Ambassador Whittlesey had worked at the 

5 White House around the same time that you had and you had 

6 visited with her in Switzerland, was there any reason that 

7 you did not recuse yourself? Could you state your reason? 

8 A There was no reason to recuse myself. If you will 

9 look at the basis for recusal in the statute, even on 

10 decisions I would make, let along Independent Counsel 

11 decisions, which are essentially recusable decisions in 

12 themselves, if you seek one, the only basis for recusal would 

13 be if there were some personal relationship, such as a 

14 strong friendship or a relative, or something like that, 

15 which there was no in this case, or some kind of a profession 

16 al relationship, which there was not, that would affect 

17 objectivity. 

18 And in this case, my relationships with her were 

19 no different than several hundred other people appointed by 

20 the President. When I visited her, it was the same as 

21 visiting in any country where the Ambassador normally would 

22 have you stay in their home. 

23 MR. LEON: Strictly business? 

24 THE WITNESS: My relationship with her .was strictly 

25 on the same basis as any other official of the aovernment. 



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BY MS. NAUGHtON: . " '*'' 
Q Do you know whether or not when you visited with 
her in Switzerland you were being entertained by the dis- 
cretionary fund that was the subject of the investigation? 

A I had no knowledge . I was entertained by her the 
same as I am around the world. 

Q When did you Iwarn those funds may have been part 
of the discretionary fund? 

A I don't think I learned until in the course of }->>e 
investigation there was some allegation. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you very much. 
MR. LEON: Thanks, General. 
(Whereupon, at 5:05 p.m., the deposition adjournea.i 






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TRANSCRIPT 
OF PROCEEDINGS 

CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



CONFIDENTIAL 



DEPOSITION OF RICHARD H. MELTON 



CONFIDENTIAL 



/H7 



VJashington, D. C. 
Wednesday, May 27, 1987 



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CONFIDENTIAL 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF RICHARD H. MELTON 

Washington, D. C. 
Wednesday, May 27, 1987 

Deposition of RICHARD H. MELTON, called for examination 
pursuant to notice of deposition, by telephone conference call 
at the offices of the Senate Select committee. Suite 901, 
Hart Senate Office Building, at 4:14 p.m. before REBECCA E. 
EYSTER, a Notary Public within and for the District of 
Columbia, when were present: 



TERRY SMILJANICH, ESQ. 

Associate Counsel 

United States Senate Select 
Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition 



TIMOTHY E. TRAYLOR, ESQ. 
United States House of 
. Representatives Select 

Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions 

With Iran 

— continued 



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1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 
2 



GEORGE TAFT, ESQ. 
Office of Legal Advisor 
United States Department 
of State 
4 Washington, D. C. 



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KIRK-PATRICK KOTULA, ESQ. 
Counsel General 
United States Embassy 
San Jose, Costa Rica 



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1 CONTENTS 

2 WITNESS EXAMINATION 
, Richard H. Melton 

. by Mr. Smiljanich 



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1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 MR. SMILJANICH: Mr. Kotula, if you would, go 

3 ahead and administer an oath to Charge Melton, we would 

4 appreciate it. 

5 THE WITNESS: I do . I have just taken the oath. 

6 MR. SMILJANICH: We really do need to get it — go 

7 ahead and have him repeat it for the record. 

8 MR. KOTULA: I asked Mr. Melton if he swore or 

9 affirmed the statement he is about to make is the truth to 

10 the best of his knowledge and he said he did. 

11 MR. SMILJANICH: Thank you. 

12 Whereupon, 

13 RICHARD H. MELTON 

14 was called as a witness and, having first been duly sworn, 

15 was examined and testified as follows: 

16 EXAMINATION 

17 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

18 Q State your full name, please. 

19 A My name is Richard H. Melton. 

20 Q Mr. Melton, you are currently charge at the 

21 American embassy in San Jose, Costa Rica; is that correct? 

22 A That is correct. 



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1 Q Starting in July of 1985, what position did you 

2 take with the State Department? 

3 A During that month I took the position of Office 

4 Director of the Office of Central American Panamanian affairs 

5 in the Department of State. 

5 Q That is within the Bureau of Inter-American 

7 Affairs; is that correct? 

8 A That is correct. 

9 Q And during your tenure as head of that office, 

10 Assistant Secretary Abrams was assistant secretary for that 

11 bureau? 

12 A That is correct. 

13 Q Now, in the early part of May of 1986, did you 

14 begin the first of a series of face-to-face meetings with a 

15 man by the name of General Jack Singlaub? 

16 A That is correct. I believe during that period, 

17 the period in question, which is May of 1986, I had one, 

18 perhaps two face-to-face meetings with him. I also had 

19 several telephone conversations with him. 

20 Q Just to take an overview for a second, in 

21 approximately — in how many meetings in which you were 

22 present was Secretary Abrams also present in a direct meeting 



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1 with General Singlaub? 

2 A I believe, to the best of my recollection, two 

3 meetings. I couldn't give you the precise dates of those 

4 meetings . 

5 Q Okay, fine. You have with you, do you not, copies 

6 of a series of memos that you authored concerning these 

7 meetings? 

8 A Yes, I do. 

9 Q And you have referred to those memos to help you 

10 refresh your recollection? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Okay. 

13 The first memo we have is dated May 8, 1986. 

14 First let me ask you, do you recall meeting with General 

15 Singlaub on or about that date? 

16 A Yes. With my memory refreshed by looking at the 

1 7 memorandum , yes . 

18 Q Did you ever have any prior meetings with General 

19 Singlaub? 

20 A The first memorandum that you referred to covers a 

21 meeting, I believe, on May 3rd. 

22 Q I believe the date is, if you will look carefully. 



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1 maybe your copy is poor, but it looks like my copy shows that 

2 the meeting took place on May 8 . 

3 A The copy I have, memorandum number 1, dated May 8, 

4 the first paragraph of that says that the meeting took place 

5 on May 3. That may be an error in transmission. 

6 Q Okay. Okay. It is not particularly pertinent at 

7 this moment, but let me ask you, prior to the date of this 

8 particular meeting, had you ever met General Singlaub 

9 before? 

10 A Yes, I had met him before. Some months before. I 

11 don't recall exactly what the date of that was. I don't have 

12 any notes with me. 

13 Q Do you recall it was approximately some months 

14 before this meeting? 

15 A It was in connection with a — General Singlaub 

16 had gone to a Central American country and negotiated an 

17 agreement with the ambassador. It was in connection with 

18 that as I recall. 

19 Q Okay. Did you meet with General Singlaub shortly 

20 after he came back from that trip? 

21 A That was true. I would have to have the dates 

22 here but I think that this series of memos was shortly after 



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1 that. I have to go back, so someone would have to refresh me 

2 on exactly when that agreement took place. But it was in the 

3 same time period. 

4 Q Let me just tell you that the records indicate 

5 that General Singlaub had these series of meetings in the 

6 last week of March of 1986. And there were then a series of 

7 cables which I believe culminate in the cable of April 10, 

8 1986. So that is the time frame concerning that particular 

9 agreement that General Singlaub negotiated. 

10 So with that as a time frame, about when would it 

11 have been that you personally met with General Singlaub? 

12 A It would have been in the context of those 

13 meetings that you referred to. I think you said they were in 

14 April? 

15 Q Yes. The series of cables ended in April. 

16 A It was in that time frame. 

17 Q Okay. General Singlaub came to your office? 

18 A Before this series of memos took place. 

19 Q General Singlaub came to your office? 

20 A No. No. In that instance, I was in a meeting 

21 that took place in Elliott Abrams' office. 

22 Q And who all was present? 



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1 A As I recall, I was there, of course, Elliott 

2 Abrams, General Singlaub. I am not positive, but Deputy 

3 Assistant Secretary William Walker may have been in that 

4 meeting as well or in part of that meeting. I am not 

5 positive of that. 

6 Q All right. Tell us your best recollection of what 

7 was discussed at that meeting. 

8 A The earlier meeting? 

9 Q Yes, this first meeting. 

10 A I have no recollection of that specifically. The 

11 context in which that took place was the agreement which 

12 General Singlaub had worked out himself with Eden Pastora. 

13 The concerns that we had that Assistant Secretary Abrams 

14 expressed were that there was some confusion as a result of 

15 the content of that agreement, and the wording of that 

16 agreement that could have made it appear that the United 

17 States Government was a party to that agreement between 

18 General Singlaub and Eden Pastora. Assistant Secretary 

19 Abrams' concern was to dispel that, to make sure that both 

20 General Singlaub and Eden Pastora knew with absolutely no 

21 doubt that the United States Government was not a party to 

22 that agreement. That was the context of and the thrust of 



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1 that meeting as I recall it. 

2 Q Okay. Give me a second. Was anything discussed 

3 at that meeting concerning any intentions of General Singlaub 

4 to solicit foreign countries for aid for the Contras? 

5 A No, not at all. 

6 Q So the purpose of that meeting was simply to make 

7 clear to General Singlaub the position of the United States 

8 with regard to that agreement he had worked out and the fact 

9 that the United States was not a party or involved in any way 

10 with any such agreements or understandings he would reach 

11 with Eden Pastora; is that correct? 

12 A That is correct. 

13 Q One second. 

14 A Beg your pardon? 

15 Q One second. 

16 (Pause. ) 

17 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

18 Q During that discussion, do you recall whether or 

19 not General Singlaub indicated that he had discussed these 

20 matters with the ambassador to that particular country where 

21 he had worked out this agreement with Mr. Pastora? 

22 A No. 



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1 Q Do you recall anything in that discussion about 

2 the involvement of that ambassador -- of our ambassador to 

3 that country in connection with this agreement? 

4 A Not in that discussion. And I, as I say, I do not 

5 have records here to indicate the timing of these things . So 

6 the specifics I may get wrong, but I am confident of the 

7 thrust of the meeting. Recounting that episode without being 

8 sure of the specific sequence of events, as I mentioned, 

9 there was a concern about a possible misunderstanding. The 

10 content of that agreement was cabled by the embassy to 

11 Washington and from the content of the agreement, from the 

12 cable, we were concerned, I know I was concerned and I know 

13 other people in the bureau were concerned that this so-called 

14 agreement could be misinterpreted as an agreement between the 

15 U.S. Government and Eden Pastora. As a result of that, we 

16 communicated with the embassy the specific instructions that 

17 this was not the case, that Eden Pastora should be so 

18 informed, and we undertook to insure that General Singlaub 

19 knew the same thing. So that was the context in which this 

20 took place. 

21 Q Okay. Thank you. 

22 Now, the next meeting you had with General 



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1 Singlaub would be the meeting that took place on either May 3 

2 or May 8, the meeting that is referenced in this memo of May 

3 8; is that correct? 

4 A It may be that the copy I have is a transmission 

5 error. The date at the top is May 8. 

6 Q Right. But that is the next meeting you had with 

7 General Singlaub? 

8 A Yes . 

9 Q That was a face-to-face meeting? 

10 A That is right. 

11 Q Now, certain matters were discussed there. First 

12 let me ask you about the discussion concerning this question 

13 of aid for Mr. Pastora. 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q He -- you set forth in your memo to Assistant 

16 Secretary Abrams the fact that Mr. Pastora was looking for a 

17 certain token amount of military equipment which he would 

18 like to get from the UNO stocks; is that correct. 

19 A Well, as I understood it, this was something that 

20 had been worked out between General Singlaub and Eden 

21 Pastora. I don't know whether the initiative came from Eden 

22 Pastora or from General Singlaub. I am not sure of that. 



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1 Q Okay. Now, the last sentence of that particular 

2 part of the memo states: "Singlaub wants you to try to turn 

3 this around. " 

4 Do you recall that that was General Singlaub 's 

5 wish? 

6 A Yes, I do. He very much wanted this to happen. 

7 Q Now, there is a marginal note up at the top which 

8 Mr. Abrams wrote to R.M.. That is you, is that correct, 

9 R.M.? 

10 A That is correct. 

11 Q And in it he indicates that, if I can just 

12 summarize it, that he appears to be in favor of this idea 

13 because it does involve such a minimal amount of equipment. 

14 Do you recall that that was Assistant Secretary Abrams' 

15 position? 

16 A His position, I think that is what was — the note 

17 was on the memo. That didn't imply a decision or a formal 

18 position on his part or on my part. 

19 Q I understand that. But is it fair to say that the 

20 two of you together thought that there might be some merit to 

21 the request of General Singlaub? 

22 A My view at the time was that there was a role in 



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1 the resistance for Eden Pastora. He was the individual with 

2 the greatest name recognition among any of the resistance 

3 leaders. At that time he was talking about pulling out of 

4 the resistance and my view, and I believe it is fair to say 

5 it was Elliott Abrams ' view as well, although he will speak 

6 for himself, that there was a role for Eden Pastora and we 

7 were interested in ways to encourage him to stay. 

8 Q Now, turning to another topic at that meeting, 

9 General Singlaub advised you that he was departing for 

10 certain foreign countries with the plan to seek funds from 

11 those countries to sustain the Nicaraguan resistance; is that 

12 correct? 

13 A That is correct. 

14 Q Now, he named two particular countries which we 

15 will refer to as country 3 and country 5. Do you know the 

16 countries I am referring to? 

17 A Yes, I do. 

18 Q Okay. 

19 Q Looking at the memo that you wrote, it appears 

20 fairly clear that you seemed to be generally in favor of the 

21 idea of sending a signal or indicating in some way our 

22 approval of his solicitation; is that correct? 



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1 A I wouldn't characterize it that way. 

•2 ' Q What would you say? 

3 A Let me read the memo. 

4 My interpretation of that and my view generally 

5 was that I knew that solicitations were — by the State 

6 Department were legal. As to who would carry out a 

7 solicitation was a matter for someone to decide other than 

8 me. And my role in this, in this meeting, was to pass along 

9 the information and the request from General Singlaub. As to 

10 how it would be done, how it would be considered, that was 

11 really a matter for others to determine. 

12 Q I understand that. Let me put it this way: This 

13 wasn't a decision for you to make, but you were certainly not 

14 opposed to the idea. I mean, it did not appear to be in any 

15 way an illegal request or asking you or State Department to 

16 do something that you couldn't officially do; isn't that 

17 correct? 

18 A That is right. Solicitations were legal for 

19 humanitarian purposes. 

20 Q Did General Singlaub in these initial discussions 

21 with you, did he tell you that he had previously made any 

22 solicitations to these particular countries in the past? 



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1 A He did not. 

2 Q Did he -- was he asked about that, in other words, 

3 did he specifically deny that he had ever solicited funds 

4 from countries 3 or 5 or did that subject just never come 

5 up? 

6 A It never came up. Basically I was listening. 

7 Q Okay. You then sent this memo to Secretary Abrams 

8 to inform him of your discussion and then to determine what 

9 should be done thereafter; is that correct? 

10 A That is correct. 

11 Q Okay. Hold on one second. 

12 (Pause.) 

13 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

14 Q Let me back up for a second. In your last 

15 paragraph — 

16 A May I say something? 

17 Q Yes. 

18 A It is, the meeting was on the 8th because the 

19 subsequent memo does indicate the 8th. It is clear that the 

20 first one was an error in transmission. The meeting was on 

21 the 8th. 

22 Q Okay. Thank you. In the last paragraph of that 



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1 memo, you state: "The simplest way to handle this would be 

2 over the secure phone. NSC approval will be needed." Why 

3 did you feel that NSC approval would be needed for this if 

4 this was an authorized activity by State Department? 

5 A Well, any kind of a policy decision would have 

6 required some interagency consultation. And a matter like 

7 this, I assumed that it would be the subject of interagency 

8 consultation. These were policy decisions that were being 

9 raised and so they would be treated in an interagency forum. 

10 Q Did you also believe that the regional secretary, 

11 assistant secretary for that particular area would also need 

12 to be consulted in connection with this, if it were to take 

13 place? 

14 A I would think that the Secretary of State would be 

15 consulted. 

16 Q All right. What about specifically the regional 

17 bureau? 

18 A I would think that — well, this is speculation, 

19 but, sure, I would think that certainly the regional 

20 assistant secretary would be consulted as well. 

21 Q Did you bring this subject up with the — with 

22 anybody in the regional bureau for the part of the globe 



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1 affected by this? 

2 : A I beg your pardon? 

3 Q Did you consult with anybody in the regional 

4 bureau that was responsible for countries 3 and 5 to discuss 

5 this matter? ■ . . 

6 A I took no further action other than writing the 

7 memo . 

8 Q All right. 

9 Let me move on to the next memo. The next copy we 

10 have is a memo to Deputy Assistant Secretary William Walker 

11 dated May 10. Do you see that memo? 

12 A Yes, I have that. 

13 Q Okay. Now, basically that is just a memo telling 

14 him about the same matters that you had previously summarized 

15 for Secretary Abrams; is that correct? 

16 A That is right. Deputy Assistant Secretary Walker, 

17 who I normally reported to, was absent during that period and 

18 this was part of a memo bringing him up to date on things 

19 which had occurred in his answer absence so it is basically a 

20 recapitulation of the earlier memo. 

21 Q Do you recall when Secretary Walker, Deputy 

22 Assistant Secretary Walker came back from his trip? 



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A No, I don't. I would have to look at a calendar 
but I would assume that it was probably a month, but I really 
don't know. 

Q Let me jump ahead and ask this general question. 
In any subsequent meetings with General Singlaub, was Deputy 
Assistant Secretary Walker present? 

A I think, I tend to go through this series, but I 
think there was only one other meeting. There were several 
telephone calls but I think there was only one other 
meeting. We can determine that as we go along. 

Q Right . 

A I am not sure whether Deputy Assistant Secretary 
Walker was present in a subsequent meeting. If he were 
there, normally he would be in a meeting like that, but at 
times he was called away, he was on the Hill or he might have 
been out of the country. 

Q When we get to that particular meeting and as we 
discuss it, we will see if maybe something about it helps jog 
your memory and to whether he was or was not there . 

A Okay . 

Q So we will get to that. 

Moving on to your memo of May 12, give me one 



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BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

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A I do. 

Q In the first paragraph of it, the second sentence, 
you state that you had told General Singlaub that you had 
spoken with Secretary Abrams on May 10 about the subjects 
concerning the aid to Pastora and vouching for Singlaub. Do 
you recall that particular meeting with Secretary Abrams? 

A Only in general terms. Not in any greater detail 
than is in the memo. 

Q Well, is there anything you can add or subtract 
from the matters you set forth to him in your May 8 memo? In 
other words, can you think of anything in particular that you 
discussed that went beyond what is set forth in those memos? 

A No. It was to inform him basically that there 
were -- that no decisions were reached on these things on 
either, on any of the topics that he had raised. 

Q So Mr. Abrams did not make a specific decision as 
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1 with these countries or for his request to help out in 

2 connection with some additional aid to Pastora; is that 

3 correct? 

4 A That is right. He made no decision to do either 

5 of those things. 

6 Q Did he tell you he was going to discuss those 

7 matters with somebody else to help him arrive at a decision? 

8 A I believe the way it went is that he said he would 

9 be back in touch on those topics. And I was sort of in a 

10 holding position, pending further conversation with him. It 

11 was the kind of environment as it is in the bureau where you 

12 don't always get a chance to talk through issues entirely. 

13 You alert — I alerted him about this issue. He, in our 

14 conversation, he indicated that he understood what it was and 

15 he said he would get back in touch kind of thing. 

16 Q So Mr. Abrams had not to your knowledge made a 

17 specific decision to in fact send the signal to the foreign 

18 countries that General Singlaub had requested; is that 

19 correct? 

20 A No, not at all. 

21 Q Is the contrary true also, that he had not made a 

22 specific decision to decline to send such a signal? 



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1 A Not exactly in that categorical way. It was more 

2 that he would talk about it some more. 

3 Q But he hadn't specifically ruled out the 

4 possibility, had he? 

5 A He didn't say that I should convey a decision to 

6 that affect. 

7 Q And he didn't tell you that he had ruled that out 

8 as a complete possibility, had he? 

9 A He didn't say it one way or another. But he 

10 didn't authorize me to convey a decision that we would do 

11 that. 

12 Q I understand. I just want to make sure that you 

13 are also clear about the fact that he hadn't come to a 

14 decision at that point to refuse to go forward, as General 

15 Singlaub had requested. 

16 A I don't know whether he had or not, but he didn't 

17 convey to me a decision. 

18 Q All right. Thank you. 

19 Now, you set forth in your memo of May 12 the fact 

20 that General Singlaub called that particular day; is that 

21 correct? 

22 A Yes. 



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1 Q And he called from, I believe, country 3? 

2 A I don't recall. That's not in my memo. 

3 Q I see. You have just, you are looking at the 

4 redacted version? 

5 A That is correct. 

6 Q Okay. At any rate, you recall he called from one 

7 of these two foreign countries that he said he was traveling 

8 to? 

9 A Right . 

10 Q Okay. And I would like you to try to go beyond 

11 what is just set forth in your memo and try to recall what 

12 General Singlaub actually told you during that conversation. 

13 A Basically had any decisions been reached and that 

14 was it. And I told him basically what is in the memo, that 

15 no decisions had been reached. 

16 Q Do you recall whether or not General Singlaub 

17 indicated — 

18 A Tes. 

19 Q — at that time that he was in fact on the verge 

20 of successfully making a solicitation and what he needed at 

21 that very moment was some type of a signal from the U.S. 

22 Government? 



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1 A Going back to the beginning of this sequence, as I 

2 recall it, he was making these trips, he had other business 

3 that was taking him to these areas. So as I recall it, he 

4 was making these trips, he would have made the trips if there 

5 had been no issue of a solicitation. 

6 Q I am sorry. Could you explain that, what do you 

7 mean if there had been no issue of a solicitation? 

8 A As I recall it, he was traveling to these 

9 countries and he wanted to make a solicitation. But he 

10 presumably had other business in those countries as well 

11 which he did not discuss with me. So even without a 

12 decision, he made the trips, so his other business took him 

13 to these countries. 

14 Q I guess my question though is, do you recall that 

15 when he made this particular telephone call to you, he was at 

16 that very time engaged in this process of soliciting funds 

17 and needed — and that was why he called you, because he 

18 needed a decision as soon as possible? 

19 A Well, not to my knowledge. He was in the 

20 country. He had said in the first meeting that he sought 

21 some official indication that he was making these requests 

22 and that we were aware of it. So he was looking for that to 



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1 make his request. And that was never forthcoming. 

2 Q Your memo states that you told General Singlaub 

3 that you wanted to be helpful, that Secretary Abrams wanted 

4 to be helpful on both issues, but that the appropriate White 

5 House officials had been unavailable. What do you recall 

6 about that particular matter? 

7 A That was in the nature, as I recall it, of a 

8 general kind of response to General Singlaub. General 

9 Singlaub was a man who was held in high regard and regardless 

10 of these specific issues, there was no desire on anyone's 

11 part to gratuitously offend him. So that in my conversations 

12 with him, I was conveying that sense or I sought to convey 

13 that sense. That's certainly my recollection, that is, that 

14 Assistant Secretary Abrams wanted to convey that as well. 

15 Q Okay. Well, what appropriate White House 

16 officials were you referring to in your memo? 

17 A Specific White House officials? 

18 Q Yes. 

19 A In a generic sense, appropriate officials could 

20 have been — White House could have been left out very 

21 easily. I had no specific officials in mind. 

22 Q But you specifically told General Singlaub that 



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1 the appropriate White House officials were unavailable, but 

2 what you are telling me is that you in fact had no specific 

3 officials in mind? 

4 A That's right. 

5 Q So you hadn't been attempting to reach specific 

6 White House officials who were in fact unavailable; is that 

7 correct? 
A Not at all. 

9 Q Would it be fair to say that based on what you 

10 knew about, as you mentioned, that General Singlaub was a 

11 well respected American of some reputation that you were 

12 basically, I don't mean to put this in a pejorative sense, 

13 but that you were basically putting him off, because no 

14 specific decision had been made and you just didn't want to 

15 bluntly tell him that nobody had been consulted? Is that a 

16 fair statement? 

17 A That is it. This was a temporizing response. 

18 That is exactly what it was. 

19 Q Okay. 

20 Now, then you set forwards in your memo the fact 

21 that decisions need to be made. A, about the limited amounts 

22 of equipment for Pastora, and, B, whether to inform the 



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1 authorities in these countries, foreign countries, that the 

2 U.S. Government approves of his solicitation efforts. 

3 Did you, after writing this memo, sit down with 

4 Assistant Secretary Abrams in which he came to a specific 

5 decision? 

6 A Not at all. The "decisions needed" part is 

7 basically there is no new information there. It is basically 

8 a recapitulation of the original — there is no new 

9 information there. It is basically a recapitulation of the 

10 original requests that were put by General Singlaub. And 

11 they were stated just as a reminder to Assistant Secretary 

12 Abrams, but they don't represent any new thoughts on the 

13 subject or really any new information. It is basically a 

14 recapitulation of the points raised in the original meeting. 

15 Q Now, your memo indicates that a RIG meeting was 

16 scheduled for May 12 and that perhaps consultations with the 

17 agency could be handled at that particular RIG meeting. Do 

18 you recall making that particular recommendation to Mr. 

1 9 Abrams ? 

20 A I remember writing it in the memo, but I didn't 

21 make it other than that. 

22 Q Did you attend a RIG meeting on May 12? 



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1 A No, I didn't. 

2 Q Did you discuss with Mr. Abrams prior to the RIG 

3 meeting what if anything should be discussed at this meeting 

4 concerning this matter? 

5 A No, I did not. 

6 Q Do you know whether or not the matter was brought 

7 up by Mr. Abrams at the RIG meeting? 

8 A No, I don't. 

9 Q He didn't tell you afterwards whether he had done 

10 so or not? 

11 , A No. 

12 Q Okay. 

13 Now, why did you feel that you say both decisions 

14 will require consultations with the agency. First of all, by 

15 "the agency," are you referring to the CIA? 

16 A Yes, I am. 

17 Q Now, with regard to the decision number one, 

18 concerning aid to Pastora, I think I can understand what you 

19 were referring to there. But with regard to the second 

20 matter, involving vouching for General Singlaub's efforts, 

21 why did you feel that the agency was a participant in this 

22 decision? 



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1 A On all decisions of policy, an interagency 

2 consultation process, it seemed to me, would be appropriate. 

3 Q Okay . 

4 Did you ever discuss this matter with anyone with 

5 the agency? 

6 A No, I did not. 

7 Q Specifically, the chief of the Central American 

8 Task Force at that time? Did you ever discuss it with him? 

9 A Not with anyone from the agency. 

10 Q All right. 

11 Now, let's move on then to the memo of May 14, 

12 1986. Do you have that in front of you? 

13 A Yes, I do. 

14 Q Okay. You state in there that you passed the 

15 decisions on the matters of aid to Pastora and solicitations 

16 by General Singlaub to General Singlaub that afternoon. 

17 First of all, I assume this was by a telephone conversation? 

18 A That is right. 

19 Q Do you recall whether or not you called General 

20 Singlaub or General Singlaub called you? 

21 A I do not. 

22 Q All right. Let me tell you why I would like you 



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1 to think about that and get your absolute best recollection 

2 of it. General Singlaub has testified that he was in the 

3 process of making his solicitation efforts in one of these 

4 particular countries when he received a call from either you 

5 or Secretary Abrams basically telling him stop, stop whatever 

6 you are doing, we have — we can't go forward with this 

7 matter. And that he said as a result of that phone call to 

8 him, he stopped, he stopped engaging in his efforts at that 

9 time . 

10 I believe Assistant Secretary Abrams' best 

11 recollection is that this was a decision that was passed on 

12 to him after he called inquiring to find out, well, have you 

13 all made a decision yet. 

14 So, you know, I am trying to see if you can — if 

15 either of those jog your memory and if you could tell us 

16 whether or not you recall who placed the call and under what 

17 circumstances? 

18 A My recollection is that throughout this process 

19 that the person making the queries about whether a decision 

20 had been reached, whether we were going to do what he wanted, 

21 that the initiative was with General Singlaub. 

22 Q Okay. In other words, you specifically can state 



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1 that to your best recollection this was — you did not have 

2 to call General Singlaub to change a prior message that had 

3 been given to him concerning his efforts; is that correct? 

4 A That is correct. In fact, I would not have known 

5 how to get in touch with General Singlaub. 

6 Q Okay. Hold on one second. 

7 Okay, now, in there you first of all told General 

8 Singlaub about the decision concerning Mr. Pastora . It was 

9 about this time, wasn't it, that Mr. Pastora had publicly 

10 announced he was withdrawing from the fight? 

11 A That is correct. 

12 Q And basically your memo sets forth your decisions 

13 and your reasons for the decisions. Do you have anything to 

14 add to it, do you recall anything else that entered into that 

15 particular decision? 

16 A Yes. I would add one factor and that is that 

17 reaching his decision, that is, Eden Pastora reaching his 

18 decision — he was making statements to the press critical of 

19 entities of the U.S. Government and of course these 

20 statements were not helpful to our concerns in the area. And 

21 we had an interest in trying to discourage him from making 

22 these statements. So I would add that to what is in the 



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1 memo . 

2 Q All right. Thank you. 

3 Now, moving on to the next topic are the 

4 solicitation matters, your memo states, "I told Singlaub that 

5 I had been instructed to pass the following message to him, " 

6 and then you have a colon and then you have an indented 

7 paragraph. It looks, from looking at this memo, as though 

8 you were very specifically setting forth word for word a 

9 message that you had been told to pass to General Singlaub. 

10 Is that in fact the case? 

11 A That is very close to being correct. I wouldn't 

12 vouch for every word in that indent, but it is the substance, 

13 it is close to the substance of what I passed to him; that is 

14 correct. 

15 Q Okay. It starts off by saying, "the earlier 

16 decision to pass the message he had requested had been 

17 reconsidered." What did you mean by that? 

18 A I would say that is loose language. I may have 

19 said something approximating that, but loose language in the 

20 sense that there had not been any earlier decision to do 

21 this. 

22 Q Do you recall — 



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1 A I have looked at the memos and if you go to the 

2 previous memo, the one dated the 12th. 

3 Q Yes. 

4 A The first sentence in that, "he called that 

5 morning to see if decisions had been reached." I think that 

6 is further indication that decisions had not been reached. 

7 So it would be certainly imprecise to say "earliest 

8 decisions," because there had been no decisions. 

9 Q All right. In other words, between the date of 

10 May 12, when General Singlaub called, and May 14, when you 

11 discussed this matter with him again, there had been no 

12 intervening telephone calls? 

13 A Correct. 

14 Q So to your best recollection, there had not been, 

15 he had not been told that an earlier decision had been made 

16 to pass the message he had requested? 

17 A That is correct. 

18 Q Then you go on to say "the judgment here was that 

19 the timing was not right. To move now might complicate other 

20 priority matters of importance of which he was aware." That 

21 is a very intriguing sentence. What did you mean by that? 

22 A As I recall, I think that is more or less what I 



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1 said. And that language and that message, as I recall I got 

2 that from Assistant Secretary Abrams . 

3 Q In other words, Assistant Secretary Abrams told 

4 you to tell him about complicating other priority matters of 

5 importance of which he was aware? 

6 A That is right. 

7 Q Did you know what Secretary Abrams was referring 

8 to? 

9 A I did not . I took it to mean that it was more of 

10 the temporizing kind of response that had been characteristic 

11 of the entire process. 

X2 Q Okay. But — - . 

13 A I didn't assume that this had any specific content 

14 to it. ' 

15 Q But you are telling this to General Singlaub and 

16 certainly if it had no content to it, wouldn't you be 

17 conceimed that General Singlaub 's response would be, what are 

18 you talking about? What priority matters of importance? I 

19 mean, this wasn't just simply put-off language. 

20 A If I were acting, in effect, under instructions, 

21 passing a message, then it wouldn't be required that I would 

22 have to explain what the message was. And I think that that 



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1 is the way General Singlaub took it. 

2 Q In other words, when you were given this message 

3 to pass, by the way, you were given specific language by 

4 Mr. Abrams; is that correct? 

5 A He gave me generally not only what I should say to 

6 him and that is — but I don't have it word for word. I 

7 wouldn't say that what I have in the memo is specifically 

8 what Assistant Secretary Abrams said. He didn't give it to 

9 me in writing and I didn't write it down immediately. It is 

10 more or less what the message was. 

11 Q But he told you something concerning priority 

12 matters of importance of which General Singlaub was aware, 

13 right; you didn't make that up? 

14 A That is right. 

15 Q All right. 

16 A More or less that. I would say a word here, a 

17 word there, but the substance of the message is correct and 

18 it is a faithful reflection of what I told him. 

19 Q And you did not ask Secretary Abrams and he did 

20 not tell you in any way what he was referring to by these 

21 "other matters of importance" of which Singlaub was aware? 

22 A No. 



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1 Q And when you read this message to General 

2 Singlaub, did he ask you right then and there what you were 

3 referring to? ^ 

4 A No, he didn't. He was disappointed, but he took 

5 the message more or less as a military man would. 

6 Q Did he ask any questions? 

7 A He realized throughout that what my — what I was 

8 doing in this and so he took, he didn't take it that he would 

9 try to change things by debating an issue with me such as 

10 this. 

11 Q In other words, during the series of conversations 

12 you were relaying messages between General Singlaub and 

13 Secretary Abrams and not acting in your own capacity as a 

14 participant in any decisionmaking; is that correct? 

15 A Well, that is not entirely true. The decisions, I 

16 certainly did not make decisions in these instances, and in 

17 the first instance the contact was initiated by General 

18 Singlaub with the requests that were in the first memo, and 

19 my role after that was to convey what he had said and 

20 generally convey back to him a series of temporizing 

21 responses which culminated in edification of the decisions in 

22 both cases. 



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1 Q And when you use the word "temporizing, " what you 

2 mean is, in other words, putting him off without — 
,;3---' 5-"" .; A That's right. 

4 Q — specifically rejecting it, rejecting the idea 

5 abruptly? 

.6 A That is right. I think that would be the 

7 appropriate way, that we would have, that we did deal with 

8 him and for the reasons that I have stated earlier, that 

9 everyone had great respect for General Singlaub and no one, 

10 certainly I did not have any interest in treating him less 

11 than with the respect that I considered that he merited. 

12 Q But up to this phone conversation on May 14, you 

13 were not aware that these series of messages were simply 

14 temporizing. In other words, it was still possible up to 

15 this date that as far as you were concerned a decision might 

16 be made to go along with what General Singlaub was 

17 requesting; isn't that correct? 

18 A I didn't discuss it in any great length. I think 

19 that is reflected in certain of my comments in these memos, 

20 that there was no conversation, no deliberation of which I am 

21 aware in the bureau on these topics. 

22 In the one case the — I am not aware of what 



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consultations may or may not have gone on about the 
solicitation issue. The other issue, the one of materiel for 
Eden Pastora, that ended up that it was overtaken by events 
when Eden Pastora withdrew from the resistance. 

Q I realize you did not participate in any decisions 
— conferences which led to any decisions concerning this 
solicitation. But going back to my question, isn't it true 
that up to the passage of this message to General Singlaub on 
May 14, the possibility, as far as you were concerned, had 
not been ruled out that such a message might be able to be 
passed from the U.S. Government? 

A That is true. 

Q I mean, you had said in your previous memo — 

A He didn't communicate that to me. 

Q Okay. You had stated in your previous memo that 
if it was going to be done, the agency might have to be 
consulted with. You had mentioned the possibility of getting 
NSC approval, so these are all indications that as far as you 
were concerned, a decision had to be made one way or the 
other, but had not been made up until the time you passed 
this, were told to pass this message on May 14. Is that a 
fair statement? 



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1 A I think that is true. 

' '2 ' - ' Q Okay . - 

3 A And in outlining these things in sort of the 

4 comment^ I was sort of outlining the interagency process of 

5 consultation that, in my judgment. anyway, would be 

6 appropriate in these circumstances . 

7 Q Let's go to the next memo. May 15, 1986. Do you 

8 have that? 

9 A May 15? 

10 Q Yes. 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Okay. This indicates that General Singlaub called 

13 again on that day, raising the topic one more time. Do you 

14 recall that conversation? 

15 A I recall it from being refreshed reading the memo, 

16 yes. 

17 Q Now, this specifically does indicate that it was 

18 General Singlaub calling you, rather than vice versa. Do you 

19 recall that that was the case? 

20 A Yes. I recall all the calls were initiated by 

21 General Singlaub for the reasons I stated, that basically he 

22 was in travel status, I wouldn't have known how to get in 



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1 touch with him in any case. 

2 Q Okay. Now, going to the second paragraph of your 

3 memo, it states that, you state that General Singlaub was 

4 puzzled by your comment concerning the timing of his planned 

5 fund raising initiative and it states, "I responded that 

6 important events and decisions were in the offing and that 

7 approaches by him at this time might complicate our efforts." 

8 Now, in your previous memo you had, you have told 

9 us you were simply passing on a message that you were told to 

10 pass along. In this memo it indicates that you had to 

11 respond directly to General Singlaub on his question. What 

12 information did you have in mind when you told him that 

13 important events and decisions were in the offing? 

14 A I had nothing in mind. That is basically a 

15 restatement of what the message was in another form. But I 

16 had no new information to pass to him. I basically restated 

17 the message I had given him earlier. 

18 Q Okay. Well, at about — 

19 A You will have to, you will have to talk about it 

20 when you get back. I really don't have anything more for you 

21 on it. 

22 Q You mean that is what you told General Singlaub? 



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1 A Yes. I think I said — I stated it a little bit 

2 more elegantly than that. That is basically what I said. 

3 Q Okay. At about this same time, May 15, May 16, 

4 that time period of 1986, an NSPG meeting — hold on a second 

5 — discussed certain matters concerning solicitation. Were 

6 you aware of the fact that this was a topic which was being 

7 discussed at higher levels? 

8 A No, I was not. 

9 Q On or about that particular time, a specific 

10 decision was made to go forward, pursuant to some legislation 

11 which specifically authorized State Department to make such 

12 solicitations, a decision was made to go forward with such 

13 efforts. Were you aware that such a decision had been made 

14 at or about that time? 

15 A No, I was not. 

16 Q Okay. So when you refer to "important events and 

17 decisions are in the offing," you were not aware that that 

18 day or the next day such a meeting was going to be held? 

19 A No, I was not. 

20 Q Do you know whether or not your words in the 

21 offing were words that were suggested to you by Secretary 

22 Abreuns? 



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1 A They — it may have reflected the earlier 

2 decision, the earlier guidance that he had given me as to 

3 what I should say to General Singlaub. 

4 Q Okay. 

5 A But I wouldn't say that is word for word what the 

6 guidance was . 

7 Q All right. Your last sentences, "I said that I 

8 was unable to be more specific over the phone but suggested 

9 that he talk to you on his return to the United States . " 

10 First of all, the, your phone conversation with 

11 General Singlaub was over an unsecured telephone line; is 

12 that correct? Hello? San Jose? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q But you had nothing particular in mind when you 

15 told him this, that was of any particular sensitive nature 

16 that you couldn't discuss with him on the telephone; is that 

17 also correct? 

18 A That is correct. I had nothing more really that I 

19 could convey to him. 

20 Q Whether it was secure or unsecure? 

21 A Correct. 

22 Q All right. Now, let's go to the next memo, which 



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1 is May 22nd, 1986. Do you have that in front of you? 

2 A I do. 

3 Q All right. , That sets forth some talking points or 

4 a memo to Assistant Secretary Abrams to prepare him for a 

5 meeting with General Singlaub at 3:45 p.m. on May 23. Now, 

6 do you recall that such a meeting took place? 

7 A As I recall it did. I would have to check the 

8 calendars . 

9 Q Let me just tell you that — 

10 A I believe it did. 

11 Q Let me just tell you that Assistant Secretary 

12 Abreuns' calendar shows for May 23 at that time a meeting with 

13 General Singlaub. Mr. Abrams does not have any specific 

14 recollection of that meeting. So he can't say one way or the 

15 other whether it did or didn't take place. But he doesn't 

16 deny that the meeting took place. He just has no specific 

17 recollection. 

18 So knowing that the calendar, his calendar shows 

19 such a meeting and that your memo sets forth preparation for 

20 the meeting, my question is, can you tell us you have a 

21 specific recollection of your own that such a meeting took 

22 place on or about that time? Let me ask it this way. 



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1 A I can't. 

2 Q Wait. Let me ask it this way: You recall that at 

3 least some point during this process Assistant Secretary 

4 Abrams and General Singlaub were face to face after that 

5 April '86 meeting; is that correct? 

6 A I just assumed that this was when it was. I 

7 believe that is true. But I don't have any calendars here 

8 for my own schedule, so I really, I would have to look at my 

9 calendars. Did anyone ask Assistant Secretary Abrams' 

10 secretary whether the meeting took place? There is a log in 

11 the State Department that he would sign in if he came in that 

12 day. 

13 Q We don't — I don't have that information. But 

14 let me just put it this way: Separate and apart from any of 

15 your memos and any of your calendars, you can recall that you 

16 were present for a meeting with — between General Singlaub 

17 and Secretary Abrams on two occasions, one shortly after the 

18 Pastora agreement matter, and one sometime during this 

19 process involving solicitation from foreign countries . Is 

20 that a fair statement? 

21 . A Yes. 

22 Q All right. Given the fact that your memo 



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1 indicates a meeting on May 23 concerning that matter and that 

2 Secretary Abrams ' calendar shows a meeting on that particular 

3 date, I think we can safely assume that it was at or about 

4 that time that you had a meeting. 

5 I don't want to tie you down to that particular 

6 date engraved in stone, but I want to get your memory of the 

7 meeting that took place at about that time between Secretary 

8 Abrams and General Singlaub. Go ahead. 

9 A I think that is true, but I am looking over the 

10 points now and I don't recall — I don't recall these points 

11 being made specifically by Assistant Secretary Abrams to 

12 General Singlaub. So I am just not sure whether — 

13 Q All right. I will tell you what. Put the memo 

14 aside for a minute and just tell us everything you can about 

15 the second time that Abrams and Singlaub met. 

16 A I have no specific recollection really. In my own 

17 mind some of these things are blended together, there were a 

18 series of meetings that took place with — well, meetings, 

19 conversations, and I am not — I am really not very clear 

20 that such a meeting — 

21 Q All right. Well, I want you to understand — 

22 A I am thinking. 



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1 Q I want you to understand, Mr. Melton, that 

2 obviously we want your best recollection. We don't want you 

3 to speculate. We don't want you to guess, but on the other 

4 hand, you don't have to be 100 percent certain of something 

5 in order to testify that it is your best recollection that 

6 something took place. So with that in mind, let me just ask 

7 you again what you can recall, if anything, about the second 

8 time in which Assistant Secretary Abrams and General Singlaub 

9 met face to face to discuss matters . What independent 

10 recollection do you have? 

11 A I am afraid I don't have any. 

12 Q All right. 

13 A I really don't recall. 

14 Q Let's look at the memo you wrote. 

15 From all indications, looking at your copy of 

16 this, this is a memo that you wrote on or about May 22nd; is 

17 that correct? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q We don't have any reason to assume that somebody 

20 made up this memo and put your name on it? 

21 A No, no, I wrote the memo. 

22 Q Okay. 



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1 Under the category of "fund raising for the 

2 resistance," do you see that toward the bottom of the first. 

3 page? 

4 A The memo number 6? 

5 Q May 22nd, yes. Do you see that? 

6 A Where is the -- oh, yes, I see that. 

7 Q "Fund raising for the resistance." 

8 A Yes . 

9 Q It states, "Singlaub is a good soldier and at our 

10 request stood down on his planned approaches to the foreign 

11 countries." That is what it states; is that correct? 

12 A That is right. 

13 Q Now, that was in fact true, wasn't it, that he had 

14 in fact stood down on his planned approaches at your request; 

15 isn't that correct? 

16 A It is not specific. It is not precisely — it is 

17 not precise. He never was authorized to do these things. He 

18 had asked us to, in effect to provide some indication to 

19 those governments that he was, that he at least was doing, 

20 was known and approved of by the U.S. Government, and he 

21 never got that. So that is what it really means. 

22 He wanted to make these solicitations, I think, 



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1 and the way he expressed it, that they would not prosper, I 

2 don't think he thought they would prosper unless he — there 

3 was some indication that there was a sponsorship or that at 

4 least we knew about it. And he never got that. So that is 

5 what actually happened. 

6 Q I understand. I am just, I don't want you to read 

7 too much into my question. I am just simply saying that he 

8 certainly planned to make some approaches and he had to stand 

9 down from his approaches at your request; isn't that 

10 correct? 

11 A As I recall it, he was going to these two 

12 countries and he wanted to make solicitations while he was 

13 there; as I recall it, he was going there for other 

14 business. But while he was there, he wanted to make these 

15 solicitations. And he, because he was, he didn't get what he 

16 wanted from us, I don't believe he made those solicitations. 

17 Q All right. 

18 Going on to the next page of your memo, you list 

19 three points to make with General Singlaub. Do you recall 

20 setting forth those three points in your memo? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q All right. The first point simply says, "I 



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1 appreciate your willingness to cancel your planned approaches 

2 on such sketchy information." What did you mean by "sketchy 

3 information"? 

4 A It was the telephone information that I had given 

5 him that was laid out in the previous memos. 

6 Q You go on to say "important national security 

7 considerations were involved (explained)." Would you please 

8 explain for us? 

9 A There is no explanation. That is just a heading 

10 that I didn't have anything more about this than I had 

11 already conveyed to General Singlaub. If there was anything 

12 else to be conveyed, it would have to be conveyed by Elliott 

13 Abrams . This is basically a heading to explain this; he will 

14 have to say what it is, if anything, that goes under that 

15 heading. If I had more details, had something specifically 

16 in mind, I would have put it there. But I didn't have 

17 anything specifically in mind. 

18 Q Did you believe that, I am just asking you for 

19 your own belief and perception now, did you believe that 

20 Assistant Secretary Abrams had made this up about national 

21 security considerations as an excuse to put off an important 

22 man like General Singlaub? 



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1 A Well, I think that, and this is now based on what 

2 I know now about solicitations that were made, and knowing 

3 now that this was approximately the time when these things 

4 were being considered, I would take it that that, that that 

5 is what the considerations were that were on the table at 

6 this time. But at the time I didn't know that. 

7 Q Okay. Do you recall in the meeting in which you 

8 were present when Assistant Secretary Abrams and General 

9 Singlaub were talking, do you recall any part of the 

10 discussion between the two of them concerning these national 

11 security considerations? 

12 A No . 

13 Q Let me ask you this: Are you telling us that you 

14 were not present when such discussions took place or that you 

15 just don't recall one way or the other whether such 

16 discussions took place or thirdly — 

17 A I really don't have any recollection of that at 

18 all, that the — I think that the — subsequently I learned 

19 that the factor — in this case, if solicitations were going 

20 to be made, they would be made by the U.S. Government, and 

21 not on behalf of the U.S. Government. I think that is what 

22 the decision that was subsequently reached was. 



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Q When did you learn that? 

A Very recently. Some of it on the hearings. 

Q Oh, you mean this isn't something you learned back 
then? 

A No . No . 

Q Oh, okay. Going back to what you knew then and 
not when we all know now, are you telling us that it is your 
best recollection that such discussions were not held in your 
presence, or simply that you don't recall one way or the 
other? 

A I really don't recall. I don't recall really. 

Q All right. You state in there your final point 
under that category is, "private fund raising is a key 
element of our strategy (explained)." Would you please 
explain that for us? 

A I had in mind basically that the President and on 
down, that it was, we had stated we would need their support 
for the resistance and they — they were receiving funds and 
we were aware that they were receiving funds from private 
donors. And the President on down, that was, we had 
hopefully stated that was support for the resistance. It was 
in that context. Nothing specific about any specific fund 



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1 raising. 

2 Q You talk of it in terms of a key element of our 

3 strategy as though it were a part of an overall approach. 

4 A I was trying to, when I wrote this, I was trying 

5 to outline sort of the topics that would likely come up, and 

6 the things that Assistant Secretary Abrams would need to 

7 respond to without providing a detailed script for him to use 

8 in such a meeting, so that the points are really in the 

9 nature of headings rather than in the nature of specific 

10 talking points for him to use. 

11 Q All right. I don't mean to imply by asking this 

12 question that there is some implication that there is 

13 anything wrong with any of this, but isn't it true that 

14 private, that his efforts at private fund raising to generate 

15 cash for use by the Contras was in fact something that was 

16 known to be taking place and that was, it was felt, was 

17 consistent with your Central American policy? 

18 A A general point, not a specific point. 

19 Q I don't understand what you mean by that, a 

20 general point. Not a specific point. 

21 A Contra fund raising? 

22 Q Yes. 



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1 A Fund raising, I think most people were aware that 

2 there was, that the resistance was receiving private funds. 

3 And the U.S. Governmeot did not take a position against 

4 that. 

5 Q Well, in addition to not taking a position against 

6 it, was it in fact a key element of the Central American 

7 strategy? 

8 A That is an overSTatement in the sense that there 

9 was a strategy in which the private fund raising had a place 

10 which we had decided where that place was and that sort of 

11 thing. That is not an accurate statement. 

12 Q Well, let me understand this though, if it is not 

13 an accurate statement, why did you put it forth here as a 

14 point for Secretary Abrams to make to General Singlaub? 

15 A It is a heading that private fund raising, what I 

16 had indicated there was that a point to be made in the 

17 meeting was something that would say that we think this is, 

18 private fund raising is fine, so long as it is within the 

19 legal requirements of the United States. 

20 Q Okay, fine. 

21 The next and I believe last memo — no, two more 

22 memos. The next memo we have. May 28, 1986, do you have that 



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memo in front of you? Do you have it? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Okay. Indicates that General Singlaub called 
again to ask for reconsideration of the counsel not to 
solicit funds. Do you have any independent recollection of 
that call? 

A As I recall, it is basically as recorded there. 

Q Do you remember where General Singlaub was calling 
from? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Okay . 

A Well, it is indicated where it was, he was calling 
from someplace in Washington. 

Q It says at the end, Singlaub will be in town until 
Friday. I see that. 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. 

A This basically is a report of what he said. 

Q I understand. In your memo you state that 
Singlaub had said he had transferred funds from an overseas 
to a domestic account to have them available for quick 
disbursal if needed. Did General Singlaub indicate how much 



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1 money he had available to him at that time for disbursement 

2 to the contras? 

3 A No. 

4 Q He never gave you a ballpark figure? 

5 A No. Never discussed it with him. 

6 Q Did he ever tell you how much money he intended to 

7 ask for from the foreign countries? 

8 A Yes. That is in the memo. That is in one of the 

9 early memos . 

10 Q Do you have an independent recollection that he 

11 told you $10 million? 

12 A Yes. That is my recollection. I think that is 

13 what is in the memo, yes. 

14 Q Okay. And he asked then if in light of the 

15 circumstances concerning pending legislation and the need for 

16 cash, if it might not be wise to reactivate his proposal to 

17 seek funding from his sources in these foreign countries. 

18 And you state there, I confined my response to 

19 stating that I would raise the matter with you and get back 

20 in touch. Is there any reason why you just didn't tell him 

21 then that a decision had been made and that was the end of 

22 it? 



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1 A No. In any circumstance like this, I would pass 

2 the information on any similar kind, not even similar but 

3 something where a request was conveyed to me where it would 

4 require a policy decision. I would always pass that request 

5 forward. 

6 Q Okay. Let me move forward to the next -- hold on 

7 one second. 

8 (Pause. ) 

9 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

10 Q Let me go to the next memo of May 29, 1986. Do 

11 you see that? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q It indicates in there that you conveyed a message 

14 from Assistant Secretary Abrams . In between the memo of May 

15 28 and May 29, we don't have a copy of any memo that you 

16 might have received from Assistant Secretary Abrams. Do you 

17 know whether or not you discussed this with Mr. Abrams face 

18 to face between those two dates? 

19 A As I recall, it is just that basically to tell him 

20 that the answer, the answer is the same as before. 

21 Q I guess my question though is, the end of your 

22 memo of May 28 says, anything I can tell Singlaub, question 



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1 mark, and then the next day you are conveying a message from 

2 Mr . Abrams . 

3 A The message that he told me to convey. 

4 Q That is, my question is, did you meet with 

5 Mr. Abrams and get this message to convey? 

6 AX saw him very frequently, and in the course of 

7 our regular meetings he conveyed, he told me what I should 

8 tell him. 

1 

9 Q Okay. 

,10 A That is what I told him. 

11 Q In other words, you raised it in person with 

12 Mr. Abrams and he told you what to tell him? Did you say 

13 no? I am sorry. I missed what you said at first. 

14 A I sent the memo, and as would be normal in this 

15 case, he wouldn't respond, I wouldn't get a. memo back but I 

16 saw him frequently and he would say, well, this is what we or 

17 I would raise it, I said what should I tell General Singlaub, 

18 and in the course of going over a series of things, he gave 

19 me the guidance on that and that is basically the guidance 

20 that is reflected in the memo. 

21 Q So your May 29 memo sets forth the substance of 

22 what Mr. Abrams told you to tell General Singlaub? 



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1 A That is correct. 

2 Q Now, nowhere in this series of memos is there any 

3 memo from Assistant Secretary Abrams to you. Do you recall 

4 whether or not he ever sent any memos to you on this 

5 subject? '■ 

6 A No. But that is not the way in which the bureau 

7 operates . Memos go up and but memos do not come down . 

8 Q Okay . 

9 A That is generally true. 

10 Q Okay. Now, let's go to the message that you 

11 conveyed to General Singlaub. First of all, how did you 

12 convey this to him, by telephone? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Okay. Do you recall whether he was in town? 

15 A I think that is right, because the previous one 

16 says he would be there until Friday, and I would, I think 

17 probably the 29th probably was Friday. 

18 Q Do you recall whether you called him or he called 

19 you? 

20 A I don't, but I may have called him in this 

21 instance. I think I probably did call him. 

22 Q Okay. And you state then the situation on fund 



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1 raising is basically the same as previously described to him, 

2 to wit, it would still be premature for him to reactivate his 

3 efforts with these countries. 

4 When you referred in there to the situation being 

5 as previously described to him, does that jog your memory 

6 that you were ever, that you can recall what discussions were 

7 held between General Singlaub and Mr. Abrams about what the 

8 situation was that was described to him? 

9 A Regurgitation of what was conveyed in the previous 

10 conversations with him. There is no more than is there, and 

11 in some ways there is not as much as there seems to be in the 

12 brief messages that were conveyed. But there is no more 

13 substance. It was basically saying, no, there is no change 

14 in the decision, and it is conveyed in language that is 

15 designed to be sort of less categorical than really the 

16 position was. 

17 Q Your next paragraph says "we applaud his efforts 

18 on behalf of the resistance and urge him on in his other 

19 endeavors." Do you recall what other endeavors of General 

20 Singlaub were referred to there? 

21 A None at all. That is very general and it is in 

22 the context of General Singlaub is, you know, an authentic 



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1 American war hero. -~~. -. 

2 Q And when you talk about his efforts on behalf of 

3 the resistance, what perception did you have of the role 

4 General Singlaub was playing with regard to the Nicaraguan 

5 resistance? 

6 A I had no detailed knowledge at all of what his 

7 role was. I have subsequently learned a great deal by 

8 listening to some of the hearings . 

9 Q Let me exclude that, and I am not asking for — 

10 A I really didn't have any real knowledge of what 

11 activity he was engaged in. 

12 Q All right. You said detailed knowledge. I 

13 realize you didn't have any detailed knowledge, but what 

14 general knowledge did you have as to his activities. I mean, 

15 he was a pretty public figure. He didn't hide what he was up 

16 to. I am just trying to find out what you perceived at that 

17 time. 

18 A I had read things in the paper about what he was 

19 doing and that sort of thing and charges and counter 

20 charges. And he was, he has never been hesitant to talk to 

21 the press. So I read some of those things that, what he was 

22 doing and that sort of thing, but I had no — frankly, I 



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really didn't focus on him and what his activities were. I 
really didn't have any great knowledge of what his activities 
were . 

Q Okay. Let me go back to the meeting, the 
face-to-face meeting with General Singlaub which took place 
after he had come back from his visits to countries 3 and 5 . 



I ^*£tft like you to focus on that conversation one more time. 
First of all, do you recall whether or not anyone else was 
present for that discussion besides yourself, Abrams, and 
Singlaub? 

A I don't. And as I say, I am not — I am very hazy 
on that. I really don't have any specific recollection. I 
think you could probably establish this by talking to other 
people as to what, as to whether the meeting actually took 
place. 

Q Well, let me just say this; Assistant Secretary 
Abrams recalls — 

A Had there been a meeting, it would have been 
Assistant Secretary Walker. 

Q Well, I need to find out what you can remember, 
Mr. Melton. I can tell you this: General Singlaub remembers 
a meeting. Assistant Secretary Abrams remembers a meeting, 



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1 but recollections differ as to whether, who else was present 

2 for those meetings. What is your best recollection? A 

3 meeting took place. There is no question about it. I am 

4 just trying to find out who you can recall being present. 

5 A If we have definitely established that the meeting 

6 took place, then I would have been there. It may have been 

7 just me. 

8 Q All right. Do you recall at any time, at any 

9 meeting between Secretary Abrams and General Singlaub, 

10 whether or not Abrams ever made a comment to General Singlaub 

11 telling him that the highest levels of government, or words 

12 to that effect, had made the decision that General Singlaub 

13 should not go forward with his efforts with countries 3 and 5 

14 due to other important matters at the highest level? 

15 A Not specifically in those terms, but something 

16 like that would be sort of consistent with the messages I was 

17 conveying to him, designed to convey a, really a "no" to him 

18 in a way that would be more acceptable than just a 

19 categorical "no" and explanation. 

20 Q Well, I understand that. Again, by asking the 

21 question, I don't mean to imply that there is anything wrong 

22 with any of this. 



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1 A Consistent with the way in which all of the 

2 messages were conveyed to General Singlaub. So I have no 

3 specific recollection^of that language, but some language 

4 which put the decision in less than categorical terms, no, we 

5 don't want your help was consistent with the kinds of 

6 messages that I was conveying to him throughout this 

7 process. 

8 Q I don't mean to imply by my questions that there 

9 is anything wrong with this. In fact, it would be human 

10 nature if you were going to tell no to somebody as important 

11 and with such a reputation as General Singlaub, to look to 

12 somebody higher up as the excuse for why something can't be 

13 done. In other words. Assistant Secretary Abrams saying, 

14 well, somebody higher up has decided this. That would be, in 

15 fact, as I say, human nature. 

16 My question is, do you recall that such an 

17 implication was made at the meeting with General Singlaub? 

18 A I don't specifically recall that kind of language, 

19 but — 

20 Q But you don't rule it out? 

21 A Beg your pardon? 

22 Q But you don't irule it out? 



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1 A Well, not — I don't rule it out, but it is 

2 something that would have put the decision in terms that 

3 would make it more acceptable to General Singlaub. I think 

4 that was the sort of the thrust of all of the messages 

5 conveyed to him. And I think that, I am looking back through 

6 my own memos , that is sort of the general theme that goes 

7 through them, important national security considerations were 

8 involved, the other things that I conveyed to him were in 

9 that tenure. So something like that, sure, that — 

10 Q Hello? 

11 A Yes, I am still here. 

12 Q I am sorry. Were you finished with your 

13 sentence? 

14 A No, I said something like that would not be, you 

15 know, that is consistent with the kinds of messages I was 

16 conveying to him and that would be, not necessarily that 

17 specific language but something like that, yes, that 

18 important national security considerations, that I think that 

19 you are a patriot. 

20 Q Okay. I have just got one other quick topic to 

21 cover. 

22 A Sure. 



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1 Q During the time you were director of the Office of 

2 Central American Affairs, there was an interagency group, 

3 restricted interagency group referred to as the RIG, which 

4 met periodically and included several people, representatives 

5 from the NSC, the CIA, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Department of 

6 Defense, and State Department. During your tenure as 

7 Director of Central American Affairs, such an organization 

8 existed; is that correct? 

9 A Yes. An informal organization. True. It did 

10 exist, and continues to exist. 

11 Q Okay. To your recollection, during the period of 

12 time from late 1985 and throughout most of 1986, was there a 

13 smaller informal working group that, within the RIG, that 

14 dealt with matters concerning the Contras composed of Oliver 

15 North from the NSC usually, Secretary Abrams from State 

16 Department, and the Central American Task Force director for 

17 the CIA; do you recall such an informal subgrouping meeting 

18 off and on during that time period to discuss — 

19 A It is true that those individuals and often one or 

20 two others would meet on various issues on an informal basis, 

21 not a scheduled kind of meeting. But they did meet, those 

22 three plus others on an informal basis periodically, that is 



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1 true . 

2 Q There were several times it was in fact just those 

3 three that would meet; isn't that correct? 

4 A That would be true, too. 

5 Q All right. And when you say a few others on 
occasions, who would be the others that might join this 
particular informal grouping? 

A Occasionally Deputy Assistant Secretary Walker, 

9 occasionally Deputy Assistant Secretary James Michael, 

10 Q Okay. But usually those three in particular would 

11 be present; isn't that correctl 

12 A Yes, maybe — that is right, yes. I would say 

13 generally, Ray Burghardt from the NSC might be there 
14. sometimes. 

15 Q But again more often than not, it was the first 

16 three I mentioned that would usually be present for such an 

17 informal gathering? 

18 A Oliver North was traveling frequently and there, 

19 to my knowledge, there were informal sessions where others 

20 would be present but he wouldn't, 

21 Q I understand that. But usually North, Secretary 

22 Abrains, and the Central American Task Force director were the 



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1 three that more often met concerning these matters than the 

2 others; isn't that correct? 

3 A Yes, I would say that is true. The other members 

4 of the RIG, you mean? 

5 Q Yes. 

6 A Yes, that is true. 

7 MR. SMILJANICH: Thank you. That is all the 

8 questions I have. 

9 MR. TRAYLOR: I don't have any questions. 

10 THE WITNESS: Could I add one thing. I was not a 

11 member of these groups, so I am giving you information based 

12 on my observations, but not as a participant in the meetings, 

13 either the meetings of the RIG or the informal meeting. 

14 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

15 Q Right. I understand that. You were not 

16 personally present at these meetings but you could, you 

17 could, you would know when meetings were being held and you 

18 could see generally who was participating in those meetings? 

19 A In a general sense, my office is on the fourth 

20 floor and Assistant Secretary Abrams ' office is on the sixth 

21 floor. And very often a meeting might take place before or 

22 after a regularly scheduled RIG meeting, so since I was not 



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1 participating in the RIG, I wouldn't be in a position to know 

2 how frequently these meetings took place, but they did take 

3 place. 

4 Q Did you ever hear this informal group referred to 

5 as a mini-RIG or a RIGlet? 

6 A A RIGlet. That strikes a bell, but it has no, 

7 that rings a bell but — 

8 Q But what? 

9 A But no more than that. 

10 Q Okay. 

11 A That is just an impression. 

12 Q All right. Okay. 

13 MR. SMILJANICH: That is all the questions I 

14 have. And Tim Traylor indicates he doesn't have any 

15 follow-up questions. So that will conclude this deposition. 

16 I want to thank you again for making yourself available under 

17 these rather unusual circumstances. 

18 If this matter is transcribed and if we are ever, 

19 if you ever need to refer to this matter, we will certainly 

20 be happy to make it available to you for your review, should 

21 the occasion ever arise. But again, thank 'you very much for 

22 your testimony and that will conclude the deposition. Thank 



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you . 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. I would have rather done 
it in person, but that is fine. 

MR. SMILJANICH: We are all off the record now. 

(Whereupon, at 5:50 p.m., the deposition was 
concluded. ) 



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RICHARD H. MELTON 



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CERTIPICATB OF NOTARY PUBLIC & REPORTER 

I, REBECCA E. EYSTER the officer before whom 
the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify 
that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 
the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand 
and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under 
my direction; that said deposition is a true record 
of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 
any of the parties to the action in which this 
deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 




■rH 



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District of Columbia 



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DEPOSITIOtI OF BRIAN TIMOTHY MERCHANT 

Friday, July 24, 1987 

U.S. House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 

The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 1:00 p.m., 
in Room B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, with 
Patrick Carome (Staff Counsel) presiding. 

Present: Patrick Carome, Staff Counsel, Heather 
Foley, Administrative Assistant, on behalf of the House 
Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions 
with Iran; C. Dean McGrath, Jr., Associate Counsel to the 
President; Nicholas; Rostow, Deputy Legal Adviser, National 
Security Council. 







328 



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Wliereupon, 

BRIAN TIMOTHY MERCHANT 
having been first duly sworn, was called as a witness herein, 
and was examined and testified as follows: 
EXAMINATION 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Good afternoon, Mr. Merchant. I am Pat Carome, 
a staff lawyer with the House Select Committee investigating 
the Iranian contra matter. Also present is Heather Foley, 
an Associate Staff with our committee. 

There may be additional lawyers either from our 
committee or from the parallel Senate Committee coming over 
and joining us. 

For the record, I provided you today with a copy 
of the resolution and the rules for our committee. I 
understand that the National Security Council has previously 
been provided with a set of those. 

If we could just begin by your stating your 
name for the record and your present job titles? 

A Brian Timothy Merchant, Deputy Director of the 
National Security Council Secretariat and concurrently 
an Assistant Security Officerfor the National Security 
Council 

Q When did you assume each of those titles? 

A The role of the Assistant Security Officer was 



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formalized in early December of 1986, having been unable to 
find a memorandum from our admin office to that effect -- 
we have looked all day for it — under Brenda Reger who did 
that memo. 

In actuality, with my assumption of System IV centre 
duties, I assumed a security officer role as well for the 
compartmented programs there and that was when I came 
into that operation. 

Q When did you assume your other title? Your other 
title is what? 

A Deputy Director of the National Security Council 
Secretariat. 

The formal title change for the phonebook was 
approved 3 November 1986. The decision was made in late 
October. 

Q And I understand that as one cf your duties, 
you are the System IV control officer; is that correct? 

A As one of my duties, I was System IV control 
officer, yes. 

Q Is that one of your present duties? 
A I guess you could say I am the supervisor for the 
System IV control files now. We have a person who was 
the actual System IV control officer, a detailee who has 
come in since, I guess, February, March. He has assumed 



those duties. 



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Q When did you act as the primary System IV control 
officer? 

A I first came into there on — well, Jim Radzimski's 
last day was 24 October 1986. 



Jim Radzimski, just so the record is clear 

Was the previous incumbent in the System IV control 



Q 

A 
system. 

Q All right. 

A I was on emergency leave that Monday and Tuesday, 
and came — so I would have assumed the duties that Wednesday 

Q Do you have a date? 

A Monday was the 27th. 28th. I believe the 
29th was the day I first came into the office, because I 
was on emergency leave Monday and Tuesday. And I held that -• 
I guess I have been out of the — sitting up there for about 
a month now. 

Q When you say, sitting up there, you are referring 
to sitting up in room 300 as the System IV control officer; 
is that right? 

A Yes. Yes. 

Q Just for the benefit of the record, could you 
very briefly describe what System IV is? 

A System IV is the secretarial correspondence 
system that handles intelligence documents, actions dealing 
with primarily covert actions. It is an information 



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management system based on a computer data base. 

Q Would you please very briefly review your job 
history at the National Security Council? 

A I started at the National Security Council 
September 1972, started on the bottom of the heap, as a -- 
I don't know what they call it, a data processor, whatever. 
Shortly thereafter, the night supervisor who was there 
departed, I believe he went to U.S. Secret Service. I was 
promoted to be night supervisor; and I did that for 
approximately six years. Then I was selected to go into 
the West Wing, as West Wing coordinator. Did that for 
approximately three, three and a half years. 

Concurrent with all those duties, I was involved 
in all the day-to-day operations of the Secretariat and 
acted as a de facto deputy. When Jim Radzimski left, they 
looked for someone who had the appropriate clearances. I 
was really the only person in the Secretariat; perhaps. 
Van also has them. He should. And they basically just 
transferred me from there into the System IV operation. 

Q You, I understand, had previous knowledge of how 
System IV worked; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q And how did you happen to have that knowledge? 

A Because our information management system is 
based upon a computer system, and I was involved — although 



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not extensively in System IV, but with the redesign of all 
our computer systems while dealing with WHCA, which means 
we look at the screens, decide the fields, are involved 
in the conversion of data from one DMS to another DMS . 
The audting, physical auditing of the data 

Q Just so that I understand, I believe that you 
were involved in some of the designing of the data bases 
for the various NSC systems. System I, System II, and 
System IV; is that right? 

A Not extensively on System IV. But the others, yes. 
Charlie Carr, the previous incumbent to Jim Radzimski 
primarily was the design force behind what System IV data 
base system looks like. I was aware of that activity 
and, you know, had some input into it, but he was the primary 
person, coordinating through Van, the Director of the 
Secretariat. 

MR. ROSTOW: Did you get the WHCA? 

MR. McGRATH: White House Communications Agency. 

BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Could you tell us what that is? 

A They are the network support for the National 
Security Council. They also support other EOB agencies, 
but they are our primary support. They support us by 
systems progreuraners — what is the other term? There is 
another term. Application programmers, computer operators. 



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troubleshooters. Movement of equipment, that sort of 
thing. 

Q Whose decision was it to make you the System IV 
control officer in October of '86? 

A I think George Van Eron. 

Q What is his position? 

A He is the Director of the NSC Secretariat. 

Q Is he your immediate supervisor or superior? 

A Yes. 

I would think he ran it by the Deputy Executive 
Secretary, who at that time was Bob Pearson, P-E-A-R-S-0-N, 
but 

Q Was there a period of overlap between you and 
Mr. Radzimski as System IV control officer? 

A No. 

Q He was gone as, I believe, you said on the 24th, 
and you started on the 29th of October, 1986? 

A His last day was the 24th. I verified this through 
reading a PROFs note which said this is his last day which 
formally notified the staff that I would be the person 
responsible for System IV starting that Monday. So Friday 
the 24th, 25th, the 26th, the 27th. However, I was on 
emergency leave the 27th and 28th, so I did not come back 
and return to work until the 29th, which was Wednesday. 

Q Who wrote that PROF_notsJ. 



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A George Van Eron. 

Q In November of 1986, how much of your time was 
devoted to your System IV control duties? 

A I would say it was 75 percent of my time in all of 
November. 

Q And the remaining 25 percent, if you could very 
briefly describe what it was you were doing? 

A The remaining 25 percent dealt with Secretariat — 
proper duties, day-to-day operations of the Secretariat, 
System II, investigation matters, that sort of thing. 

Q Could you please briefly describe what the System 
IV control officer did, and J. am specifically referring to 
the job you did in the period October-November 1986? 

A The System IV control officer was responsible 
for recording into the computer data base the System IV 
documents that were processed through him, also putting 
into what we call "document log" those same documents that 
moved to the West wing. He was responsible for dispatching 
memorandum that had been signed or approved to other 
agencies and following whatever is the proper security 
regulations that entail, which means if they were classified, 
he would make sure there were receipts, that sort of thing, 
to raaintian the originals in the file, so he was also 
responsible for filing. 

Concurrently with that, there were other documents 



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that were processed by him which were not System IV 
in the context of a — of the Secretariat management system. 
They were handled in System IV, handled by the System IV 
control officer because they were intelligence matters, 
but they were not in and of themselves what we call System 
IV. These included CIA reporting cables, whether they 
were — they have classified code word cables as well as 
regular routine cables. Sometimes there were documents, 
intelligence documents or intelligence publications that 
were very routine in nature. They appeared every week or 
every two weeks or every month. So those would be recorded 
in that system. 

Q All right. 

I will, I think, later get into a little bit more 
of the specifics of the data entries and the handling of the 
documents themselves. 

I take it that in October or November of 1986, 
when you were working as the control officer, that was taking 
place in room 300 in the Old Executive Office Building; 
is that right? 

A In the loft of room 300; that is correct. 

Q Room 300 is a split-level office area; is that 
right? 

A One part of it is a split-level office area. 
The entrance over the — where the secretaries sit downstairs 



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is split level. The other three — the four offices are 
not split level. 

Q Ana ara I correct that the entire loft area is 
devoted to the System IV document maintenance? 

A Not the entire. Most of it. David Major had some 
of his, what we -- I guess, you could define as chron 
files, his own copies of records that was handled by his 
secretary up there in one of those shelves. But they were — 
that shelf was separate from the other System IV documents 
and there were some documents in boxes. 

Q All right. 

Were you the only person who worked up in the loft 
area? 

A No, I was not. 

Q Who else worked up there? 

A Kathy Gibbs, who was a secretary to David Major. 

Q And it was just those two people who worked up 
in the loft area? 

A Yes. 

Q Who worked in the room 300 complex in the period 
that you were System IV control officer? 

A When I arrived the professional officers were 
Ken DeGraf fenreid, Vince Cannistraro, Gerald May, and 
David Major. The secretaries were Kathy Gibbs, Pat Ra 4btott T 
and June Bartlett, Then myself and then, of course, Jim 



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Radzimski would have been there up until the time — up 
until the 24th. 

Q Who was the senior person in the office? 

A Senior person was Ken DeGraf fenreid. 

Q What was the working relationship between you and 
Mr. DeGraf fenreid? 

A You mean like was it Cordial'?- 

Q I guess I am getting at whether or not he would 
be a person you would look to for instructions or directions 
in what you were doing in your job? 

A Well, he could give me some instructions and guidanc 
yes. But he was not my supervisor or superior. I was not par|t 
of his organization in that office. 

Q You were not in his line of command? 

A I was not in his chain of command. 

Q Your line of command went to Mr. Van Eron? 

A Mr. Van Eron, through him to the Executive 
Secretary. 

Q And who was the Executive Secretary at ttet time. 

A Rod McDaniel. 

Q But did Mr. DeGraf fenreid from time to time 
ask you to do things and give you instructions? During the 
time you were System IV control officer? 

A Everyone asked me to do some things. They could 
be minor things like check this number in the system. 



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Give me a log number. Has this gone out? Have you dispatched 
it? You should assure that this is carried across the 
street. Nothing — he gave me no instructions in terms of 
anything that could be defined as affecting the integrity 
of the file — whether it was physical integrity, or of the 
documents, or the computer data base. 

C At the time you were working in room 300, I gather 
that it was a certified SCIF or secure area; is that 
right? 

A That is correct. 

Q Could you just for the benefit of the record 
state what that means? 

A A SCIF area is an area 



[that allows for open storage 



of classified information 




Q I don't need too much detail. 

A All right. 

Q Basically it is a 

A It is alarmed. It is an alarmed area. The alarm 
system is monitored and responded to by the Secret Service. 

Q In the period of October and November — '86, 
when you were working in room 300, who were the other people 
who had access to the room? 

MR. McGRATH: Is it anybody other than the people 

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you mentioned earlier? 

THE WITNESS: What do you mean by accessed? 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Who else could 

A Come into the room? 

Q come into the room on a normal basis? 

A Anyone on the staff. Any outside visitors 
could come into the room. There is a cipher lock on the 
door. There is a bell system, the letter V, so that if you 
were coming there to see me, you would have been cleared 
into the complex., When you got into the door, since it 
was secure, you would press the letter V, it would ring in 
the room. Someone there would buzz you in. 

Q Let me see if I can be more specific. I guess I 
am more interested in who are the people who could actually 
open up the office at any time? 

A The only people that were authorized to open up 
the office were the people on the access list given to the 
United States Secret Service, which were the incumbents 
in the office. 

Q The list of ncunes you gave before; is that 
right? 

A Right. 

MR, ROSTOW: I have a clarifying question here. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Did everybody in the — who worked in the room, 
have the right to secure the facility at night and open it 
first thing in the morning? 

THE WITNESS: As far as I knew, yes. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Were there other people, other than those who 

worked there, who also had the right or ability to gain 
access to the room themselves, open it up? 

A As far as I know, no. 

MR. CAROME: Could we go off the record just 
for a second? 

(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Mr. Merchant, were there other people, other than 
those who actually worked in room 300, who were on the 
access list? 

A There were. 

Q Who were they? 

A They were members of the administrative office of 
the National Security Council. Nbry Dix, D-l-X, Marcey 
Gibson; Mike Sneddon, S-N-E-D-D-O-N; and William Van Horn. Tw^ 
words. 

Q Did those four people. you have just listed have 
the combination fo the lock on the door that you needed to 
get into the room? 

A To ray knowledge they had neither the combination to 

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the door nor the cipher lock combination. 

Q What was the significance of their being on the 
access list? 

A They were the administrative officers of the 
National Security Council. Mary Dix was the administrative 
officer; and if the Secret Service or any contractors under 
Secret Service had to go into room 300 and it was secure, 
physically secured, and no one was available who could 
open it up, if the Secret Service had to go into the room, 
they would have to get permission — going down the chain 
of command from Mary Dix. 

Q Could you please describe how the System IV 
documents, the actual documents were maintained in room 300? 
Let IS start with where were they maintained in room 300? 

A Well, they were maintained upstairs in the loft, 
some of them. Some of them were maintained in secure safes 
in the secretarial vault. Some of them were in standard 
record boxes approved by GSA and the National Archives in 
the third floor vault as well. That was really the overflow. 
We had no file space to physically put them on the shelves 
in the loft of room 300. 

Q Just so the record is clear, let me see if I can 
get a clearer picture of where the documents were kept. 

The main System IV files were in the loft area in 
room 300; is that right? 



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A The System IV control office was up there. 
System IV files were up there. By "main" I don't know what 
you mean. The ones that were in the -- in boxes in the 
vault were System IV documents. , 

Q Where were the majority of the System IV documents 
kept? . . . ■: . 

A In 300 loft. 

MR. ROSTOW: Are you getting at where were the 

currently used? Is that a better 

MR. CAROME: I will touch on that. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q I just want to ask a few more questions here. 

The loft to room 300 had no safes in it; is that 
right? 

A That is right. "i 

Q There were storage bins or storage files; is 
that right? ^, 

A Storage shelves, yes. I 

Q And '; . 

A Or cabinets. 

And that was where most of the current System 
IV records were kept; is that right? 

A I don't know what you mean by current. What I 
am trying to say is that we go back to, I believe, 1981, 
or early 1982, when System IV was established. I had 



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records in certain files back to that time period. The 
numerical files, I usually — when I was there, I had 
'86 and '85; but '84, '83, '82, '81, were filed in the 
vault. 

Q When you say in the vault, where was that? 

A In the 300 — room 381 complex, which is the 
Secretariat vault. 

Q That is separate from room 300; is that right? 

A Yes. And also in that room were two safes that 
had sensitive, even more sensitive System IV documents in 
them. 

Q When you say "in that room," you are referring to 



the- 



A In the vault. In the vault. The Secretariat 



vault. 

Q Let's first go to the set of documents up in the 
loft. As I understand it, these were kept in file cabinets 
of some sort; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And did those file cabinets have locks on them? 

A They had a key lock on them, yes. 

Q Was it your practice in October -November 1986, 
when you were system control officer, to keep those file 
cabinets locked? 

A No, I may have locked them once or twice, 

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I recall once or twice, but it was not a standard practice. 
There was no need to. 

Q Why was there no need to? 

A Because this is a SCIF unit. SCIF unit means 
open storage of classified information. 

Q And what that meant was that anyone who could 
be in room 300, could then easily have access to the 
original System IV files; is that right? 

Q That is right. 

Q And just so that it is clear, I understand that 
other System IV records were kept in the vault of the 
Secretariat's office; is that right? 

A Yes. The Secretariat vault. 

Q Those would be System IV records prior to 198 5? 

A Generally speaking, yes, they were. 

Q And also some particularly sensitive System IV 
documents; is that right? 

A That is true, which also related to earlier 
administrations as well. So there was no System IV 
in earlier administrations, but they were intelligence 
documents or intelligence activities, 

Q But even from the years 198 5 and '86, I gather there 
would be some particularly sensitive System IV documents 
from those years that would be in the vault rather than 
up in the loft; is that right? 



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A That is correct. 

Q Who would make the decision as to which of those 
two operations the document would be kept in? 

A The System IV control officer based upon the 
content and code word perhaps of the document, what the 
document was discussing. Or what program the document 
involved. 

Q So that would have been a type of decision 
that you would make as the System IV control officer; is 
that right? 

A Yes. 

Q If it is possible, could you estimate the percentage 
of System IV documents for '85 and '86 that were kept in 
the Secretariat vault rather than the loft? 

A I already said the '85 and "86 were in the loft. 
Prior to '85 were in the vault. 

Q My question was I thought there were some 
particularly sensitive documents from '85 and '86 in the 
vault; is that right? 

A A very small number. 

Q Do you know if there were any for that time 
period? 

A Yes, there were some. 

Q But it was a very small number? 

A Very small, because it dealt with certain particular 



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programs not in any way remotely connected to the issues 
that are under discussion. 

Q And just so it is clear, I gather what you are 
saying is if there were a document relating to the Iran 
initiative that was a System IV document? 

A It would not be in there. 

Q The same if it were a document relating to NSC 
activities with respect to Nicaragua; is that right? 

A Would not have been there. 

Q How are the files — let ma rephrase that question. 
During the time you were System IV control officer, how were 
the System IV files organized? 

A Well, they were organized in many ways. The 
generic catch-all file was a numeric file, which meant a 
document filed numerically. 

Q That would be numerically according to their 
System IV nximber; is that right? 

A According to their System IV number. 




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MR. McGRATH: You don't really need to get into the 
specifics. 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Yes. You don't need to get into the specifics « 
A Well, they are filed different ways. 

MR. CAROME: Let's go off the record for a second. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. CAROME: Back on the record. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q I gather from what you have just been describing 
to tls off the record, that the System IV documents that are 
on the main numeric log are generally files in one of two 
places. First, in a grouping of files that are just in the 
numeric order, according to the number that they were originally 
assigned on the log? Or, two, subject matter files; is 
that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q Just in terras of volume, what percentage of the 
System IV documents are in the numeric file, roughly, if you 



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can estimate that? 

A I would estimate 50-50. 

Q A 50-50 breakdown between the subject matter 
breakdown file and the numeric file; is that right? 

A ^Y6s. ■ 

Q Who — let me start over. 

Is that the system that you inherited when you 
began as System IV control officer? 

A Yes. 

Q Who decided which of the two categories a document 
would be filed in? 

A System IV control officer. 

Q And who decided how to set up the subject matter 
1^ files? 
'5 A Subject matter files were, I am sure, predate 

16 both me and Jim Radzimski and probably Charlie Carr. 

17 Q You didn't make any changes to them during the time 
you were there? 

19 A I may have added a file, you know, a key word 

20 or something like that, as I am sure Jim added some — 

21 as he may have. It depends upon the nature of the document. 

22 If you got a document in that that never existed four years 

23 ago and was a unique subject type document, you might 

24 create a new subject to file all those type of documents. 

25 Q Would the System IV documents relating to NSC 



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activities in Nicaragua be in numeric files or in subject 
matter files? 

A They could be in both, depending upon the content. 

Q And I have the same question for Iran initiative 
documents? 

A They could be in both, depending upon the content. 

Q You mean either? They wouldn't be in two places 

at one time? 

A Well, one document would not be in two places. 
But if you had two documents, one could be here, one could 
be there. 

Q I understand. 

Could you briefly review for us the process of 
creating a System IV document specifically the process of 
giving it a number and getting it into your files? 

A Okay. Creating is not the right word, because I 
didn't create, okay. I staffed. 

There are two ways that System IV documents would 
come to me. The first, in any order -- the first would be 
from the outside to the National Security Council; the second 
would be a memorandum prepared by a member of the National 
Security Council staff. The second would usually have a 
System IV number on it that had been requested by phone, 
generally speaking, or issued to it by phone or someone 



came by and said I need a System IV number. 



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The first, being the ouside agency input, would 
come and I would put a System IV number on it, using the 
next number on the list. Then I would put them into the 
computer data base and process it as required. If it were 
a memorandum going across the street to the West Wing, I 
would also put it into the document log data base. 

Q You are talking about two separate data bases? 

A Yes. 

Q What are the names for the two separate data 
bases, or sort of the name you would refer to in your job? 
Not necessarily the technical name. 

A Well, the first is a classified term. I can't 
tell you that. It is the System IV data base. 

The second is what we call 'Coc Log," short for 
document log. 

Q Those are two completely separate data bases; is 
that right? 

A Two completely separate data bases, yes. Two 
completely separate computer code words which required 
access. 

So if it were going across the street, I would 
put it into document log. If it were going — or after the 
computerization is finished, if it required staff go to 
staff officer, I would put a cover on it and seTid the 



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original to the staff officer, whether he was in room 300 
or down the corridor, in a sealed envelope with his name on the 
outside and I would keep a suspense copy of the document. 
That suspense copy — well, there was also a read file that 
suiranarized all the activities of System IV for that day that 
I would put documents in. 

Q I am going to ask you about the read file separately 
later. So we don't need to talk about that right now. 

A Then it would be sent down the hall. Then I would 
file the suspense copy or retain the suspense copy. As 
document action was completed, I would update the computer 
and file the original destroying the suspense copy once I had 
the original. 

MR. CAROME: Why don't we mark this group of 
documents as Exhibit 1. 

(Exhibit No. BTM-1 was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Just for the record, what we have just marked 
as Exhibit 1 appears to be — purports to be the System IV 
document log for the years 1984, '85, and '86. It is a 
many paged document separated into three groups according 
to year, I believe. 

Mr. Merchant, I show you what has been marked 
as Exhibit 1, and ask you is that, in fact, the — a System 
IV document log for those years? 



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A It appears to be the System IV document log for 
'84, '85 and '86, yes. 

Q The very first page of what is Exhibit 1 is headed, 
'1986 System IV numbers to be issued by NSC/S." It is a 
page that appears to be somewhat different than the other 
pages for 1986. I wonder if you could, for the record, 
explain why that is? 

A NSC/8 is National Security Council Secretariat. 
These numbers beginning with the 42 number system — series 
were for the Secretariat to issue after hours when the System 
IV was closed, the control officer was gone, 7, 8 o'clock 
at night someone calls requesting a System IV number, 
it would be issued by the Secretariat. They are different 
only — they are different in the numbering system to indicate 
that they were issued after hours and not issued in the normal- 

Q It is a separate numbering system; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q And 

A But only because someone was not available to 
issue a, I guess, regular number. 

Q Where was this separate log maintained? 

A It was maintained in the operational safe in a sealed 
envelope of the Secretariat. 

O And I gather someone would be there 24 hours 
around the clock; is that right? 



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mmsm 



27 



^ "A The Secretariat opened at 7:00 in the morning 

2 and closed at 9:00 at night, normal hours. Someone would 

^ be there until 10:00. But those were the normal hours. 

^ Q Could you lust briefly describe how this log worked 

5 or was used by you during the time you were System IV officer 

6 A A document would come in. I recognized it as a 

7 System IV document versus it being a reporting cable, somethin<[ 

8 that is handled in the data base, but not considered System IV. 

9 Had a stamp that I would stamp on the document. I would 
10 go to the log, take the next available number, write it on 
H the document, sometimes maybe on two pages, if it were a 

12 cover memo, and a cover — a cover note and another larger 

13 memo, and initial on the document and a date by the document. 

14 Q That would be for documents coming in from outside? 

15 A Coming from outside. If it was someone requesting 

16 it 

17 Q For instance, if it were Oliver North or Oliver 

18 North's secretary. Fawn Hall, producing a System IV document, 

19 how would that process work in terras of getting a number and 

20 all that. 

21 A They would generally call. Fawn would call and 

22 ask for a number. I would go to the list, the next available 

23 number, indicate ~ probably one of both ways. Sometimes 

24 I would put my initial and the date, or — the first number 

25 I used on a day, I put the date. Until that changed, the 



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next day, when I used the first number the next day, anything 
in between was all on that date. So sometimes I would 
just, say, in the early days, I believe, if it was used, I 
would put my initial. The later days, I would put who 
requested it by their code, by their initials. 

Q Sometimes you put your own initails rather than 
the requestor's initials; is that right? 

A Yes. Because this doesn't mean anything. This 
is a log. until it goes in the computer data base, there is 
no record of the document. 

Q And just so it is clear, I gather that from — 
during the time period you were System IV control officer, 
there might be some entries that have your initials on them, 
but they could have been documents being created by or for 
Oliver North; is that right? 

A The entries that have ray initials on them are those 
numbers that I issued, had nothing to do with whether or 

not I created — well 

MR. McGRATH: I think the question is if — if 
Fawn Hall ealled and asked for a number, are there instances 
where you would have noted the assignment of a number to 
initials and not Fawn Hall's? 

THE WITNESS: Well, as you can see 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q For the record, we are looking at the fourth page 



UNCLASSIQEIL. 



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mms 



29 



1 of Exhibit 1, part of the 1986 document log. 

2 A As you can see from here, it was generally my 

3 practice to put my initials. Occasionally I would indicate 

4 whom. For instance, Vince Cannistraro here. June Bartlett 

5 here. June there. •. . 

6 Q I guess my question is it is possible that some 

7 of those items, during the time when you were System IV 

8 control officer, that have your initials next to them but 

9 which could have been documents that Fawn Hall or Oliver 

10 North was preparing; is that right? 

11 A Could have been prepared by any staff officer, 

12 yes. 

13 Q Do you know whether or not your predecessor, Mr. 

14 Radzimski, followed t hart same practice? 

15 A I don't know. You would have to look at his 

16 list. .... . . 

17 Q We don't need to do that right now. You don't 

18 know whether or not he followed that practice? 

19 A I don't know. I would assume he could have. 

20 Again, this doesn't serve any purpose other than to say this 

21 number was used and the next available number is this number. 

22 Q When you say this, you are referring to the log 

23 which is Exhibit 1? 

24 A To the log, right. Okay? 

25 Until the document is actually given to me, until 



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I put it into the data base, that document never exists 
because they may decide to cancel the number. 

MR. ROSTOW: Or they may decide not to create the 
document and fail to tell you? 

THE WITNESS: That is right. 
BY MR. CAKOME: 

Q Is that right? . 

A That is correct. If a number were canceled 
and I was told it was canceled, I reused the number, 
because we tried — we didn't — I tried to maintain 
consecutive numbering, you know. If I was told it was 
canceled, then I would issue it to the next available 
document or to the next available request for a number. 

Q All right. 

I would like to turn briefly to the document log 
data base. Could you briefly describe what that data base 
was? 

A The purrpose of the document log was to serve 
as a locator, an original document locator of documents sent 
to the West Wing of the White House. 

Q And did that apply just to System IV or to other 
NSC documents as well? 

A It applied to all NSC system documents that were 
processed through the West Wing desk. If a document were 
not processed through the West Wing desk, it is possible it 



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wouldn't be in Doc Log initially. Now most of those 
documents if they came back through the West Wing desk 
and were not originally in document log, would be at that time 
put in document log. ■ 

Q And what type of information was contained in the 
document log data base? 

A The log number of the document to include the 
year, description, subject, title, line, the staff officer, 
the primary staff officer, if there were more than one, which 
we considered to be the first. At that time there was only 
one field for staff officer. Currently we have added a 
second field. ' ' 

The document date, and then a chronology of location 
based upon function key input. So that if a document were 
set over there, I could look at the list of function keys 
and say if this is going to this person, who is this 
function key, I would hit that function key and the 
document was recorded in document log. 

Q And as I understand it, this was a system which 
tracked only documents going to the West Wing; is that 
right? -'■' ' ' ■ -• "' ' • •'■ 

A That is correct. "' '' 

Q And why was that? 

A Because staff officers had the habit of calling 
the West Wing desk, when I was West Wing desk coordinator. 



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affd calling the Executive Secretary's Office, and asking 
questions about the status of their document. Well, to 
alleviate that — those phone calls, and to resolve the need- 
less activity of calling over there, saying where is the 
document, when I couldn't say anything more other than it 
is here, and to physically find it, I would have to look 
on someone's desk, document log was created. So that as 
the document log moved and the document log was updated 
to reflect the movement of the document, a staff officer in 
lieu of calling, asking for the status, can go to his 
computer, call up the log number which he would have 
to know, but if he prepared the document he should know it, 
and could tell him exactly where the document was. 

Q Let's take as a hypothetical example a System IV 
document that Oliver North might have prepared to send to 
John Poindexter. At what point would the initial document 
log data entry record be created? 

A Well, in October-November, I would create it 
in room 300 loft, most of the time. If there were a 
tine irtien I had to quickly get a copy, and I would say 95 
percent of the time, quickly get across the street, I would 
walk across the street and could create it at any terminal 
in the West Wing desk. 

Q Do you know what the practice was prior to the time 
you were there during 1985 and '86? 



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A I would assume Jim would have done it at his desk. 
Q Correct me if I am wrong. I understand after it 
was created, people's secretaries would have the capability 

of updating 

A Not people's secretaries. 

Q the data? 

A No. Not people's secretaries. The only people 
authorized to create, edit, update data in document log, or 
for that matter, any of the Secretariat data base systems 
are, one. Secretariat personnel people; and for document 
log, that also includes the secretaries and support staff 
of the Office of the Executive Secretary, and for document 
log, it includes the secretaries of the National Security 
Adviser. 

Secretaries vrtio worked for a particular staff man 
could not create, edit, delete document log. They could 
not create, edit, delete data base as far as I know, as far 
as the system was originally designed, and as far as WHCA has 
maintained that the security of the system under those 
security restrictions remained in effect. 

Q From what you are saying, I understand, for 
instance, the National Security Adviser's secretary would 
be able to go into the document log data base and update 
it or edit it; is that right? 

A Update it. They don't all have the edit capability. 



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34 

I can — one of ray duties is to control access to document 
log; and for someone to have the edit capability, I would 
have to go into that file, which is a separate file, which I 
am aware of, Van is aware of it, others now may be aware 
of it, but no one else had access to it. And I would have 
to give them the edit capability. If I didn't give them the 
edit capability, they could not edit. That doesn't mean 
they could create an update. 

Q Just so it is clear, did you have this responsibility 
— did you have responsibility with respect to document log 
prior to the time you were the System IV control officer? 

A I had responsibility for document log ever since 
document log was established. I established document log. 

Q When did you do that, roughly? 

A Roughly, i think '84, late '84, early '85, maybe. 
It superceded a file that existed before called "Day Log." 

Q There was a predecessor system to document log; 
is that right? . . , . _, 

■ ' ■ " ' " '"■'■ ]> .-.r 
A Yes. < 

Q What was that system? i '^ 

A Day Log . , ' ' 

Q How did Day Log work? 

A Day Log was really established at the West Wing 

to replace an older system which was a manual typanritten 



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- Q When was Day Log in effect? Roughly? 

A Well, before — I have to go back. When I first 
came over to West Wing desk, it was a manual typewritten 
system of recording log numbers, titles, and action. 
Shortly after I came over there, I said to myself this is 
nonsense. I called WHCA up and instructed them to put up 
Day Log. I went and used a previously established file, 
just said I want you to clone this file and put numbers 
on it -- not put numbers on it. Clone the file. I used 
that file and instead of doing it manually, I put it into 
Day Log. 

Q And again it was a system for data base for tracking 
documents sent over to the West Wing; is that right? 
A Yes. But it wasn't as precise as Doc Log. 

MR. McGRATH: Was Doc Log in effect in 1985? 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 
MR. ROSTOW: Was Day Log? 

THE WITNESS: Well, there is a version of Day Log 
today, but that version of Day Log today is not the same 
version of Day Log. 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q What is it used for? 
A Day Log today? 
Q Yes- 
A All oay Log does is summarize the activities in 



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Dm 1 
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end dennis g 
thomas fls 
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document log for a given day. We can't do anything other 
than look at a day, give it a day. It cannot be manipulated. 

Q What information is contained on this Day Log? 

A Whatever is in Doc Log. It is like a retrieval 
system. If I do 12 actions today, I could call up Day Log 
for today and it will show me the 12 actions done in document 
log. 



JUmSSiEL 



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Thoma s 
2:00 ^ ■ 

jm 1 H^^ 
' 2 

3 



{f 






starting with the period when you were Aft«iAtajit 



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JhjiJ Control Officer, who at that time had the capability, 
or did you give the capability to^ to be able to edit the 
document log data base? ^ _, —, — ■ 

A Well, if we had no NSC y ^ aa rctair V personnel 
coming on, I am sure I could have. 

Q I am not asking who you gave it to, who had 
that capability during October, November? 

A No one except iii'aiai''6fc«i. J ufl* Personnel , Executive 
Secretary's Office personnel, the personnel in the National 
Security Adviser's office, and that is it. 

Q They all had the edit capability? ' 

A No . 

Q That is what I am asking you, who had the edit 
capability? 

A I couldn't tell you that. ; 

Q Generally speaking, most of the secretarialt 
personnel had edit capability. Some of the Executive 
Secretary personnel had edit capability, and maybe some of 
the, one or two of the persons upstairs, particularly 
night people. 

Q How was edi.: capability controlled, what was it 
that those people had that others didn't have the 
capability? Was there a password? :; 



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A No; when the document log screen came up, and you 
could only edit, you could only edit under one section of 
document log. The document log has three sections. You 
could only edit. If you had edit capability, the field 
came up, said edit. If you didn't have edit capability, 
that field would not appear. 

Q Was it a user ID specific limitation? 

A It was a user ID limitation controlled in a 
separate file, not known to the staff, that I controlled. 

Q Was there also a separate password, one needed 
to get into edit mode or just user ID? 

A User ID specifically. 

Q Was the document log data base to reflect the 
removal of originals from room 300 for documents that had 
been closed out and for which action was not ending? 

A The document log did not reflect that, no. 
The document log reflected the status of actions sent across 
the street and it would reflect the final action taken upon 
those memoranda sent across the street as they were returned 
to the Secretariat. 

Q Typically the final action would be reflected 
that the document had been returned to the Secretariat 
files? 

A No, typically it would say what action was taken. 
Document log does not reflect what you are asking. That 



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would be the data file. 

Q If we could go off the record for a second. 

(Discussion off the record.) 
-'i-^'vc.v. BY MR. CAROME: , • ' / , ' 

Q Let's go back on the record. '•', 

Correct me if I am wrong, I am going to try 
to describe how I understand the docximent log data base 
works. I understand that it is used to track documents 
sent over to the West wing for which action is necessary 
or pending; is that correct? 

A That is right. 

Q And once a document is closed out, filed away, and 
there is no further action, there would not ever be an 
occasion on which to track it again on document log; 
is that right? ..- . 

A Unless there was an add-on memo. 

MR, ROSTOW: I think what you mean is to add 
information to Doc Log? 

MR. CAROME: That is right; you would not add 
information to document log if some one really were 
borrowing a document that was a year old, taking the original 
out of the files to look at it, to review it, would add 
a document log entry for that purpose? 

THE WITNESS: No. That would be the improper 
file anyway. 



UNClASSinED 



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BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Why do you say that? 

A Document log is a locator for originals in the 
West wing. 



Q At the time when you were working as ij fn i i lb I Mil 



i m LI lb I rill; 



__f2jy Control Officer, would it have been possible to call up 
document log records for System IV documents dating back 
to '84, '85? ■ ■ 

A I would say, yes, assuming that document log 
did exist in '84, which I believe did. 

Q And on from that one could review, review or 
track the places where that document moved during the time 
that it was on an active document? 

A Yes, assuming that their every place in time 
was recorded into the system. 

Q Are you aware of any change or edits made to 
document log entries during November of '86? 

A Not specifically, but I eun aware that I would 
have made such changes, if I had known, if I had noticed 
in correction, or inaccuracy in any document file, any 
document record. It is a standard practice to correct 
error. 

MR. ROSTOW: You would not have gone back 
to a 1985 document and corrected an error in the document 



log then, would you? 

THE WITNESS: No J 




mm 



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1 "' BY MR . CAROME : 

2 Q You specifically recall that you didn' t do anything 

3 like that; is that right? i 

4 A Not that I am aware of, no. To do B5 records 

5 there would have to be created a new document log record as 

6 an add on. 

7 MR. ROSTOW: Whatever correction you typed in 

8 in October-November ' 86, concerned documents sent to the 

9 West Wing for which action was pending; is that right? 

10 A Pending or closed out, if there is a correction 

11 that needed to be done. If an '85 record is still open, 

12 it is still active. \ 

13 BY MR. CAROME: 

14 Q I £un referring to closed records, did you make any 

15 changes to a document log record for a closed record? 
•J6 A Other than for the normal editorial or audit 
17 requirements, no, which is standard procedure. 

f8 MR. ROSTOW: Which would be after action was 

19 completed? 

20 THE WITNESS: It would be at any time I would know 

21 the error. If it is closed and I missed data but for 

22 some reason I am reviewing day log for that day and I see 

23 John Doe is misspelled, I will say, okay, that log I would 

24 go to it and correct it. 
25 



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BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Did you ever change, not simple errors, but the 
actual substance of a document log entry for any closed out 
document? 

A What do you mean by "substance"? 

Q I am talking about changes, occasions as to who 
it went to and where it went? :, 

A I have. 

Q when have you done that? 

A In the standard course for any specific log number, 
but in the standard course of my duties? ' 

Q Did you do that at all during the period that 
you were Assistant Control Officer? 

A Yes. 

Q Why would you change occasions as to where a 
document had gone? 

A Because, the occasions were incorrect. For example, 
an item was sent to Bill /rnrtnpyJ or it wasn't sent to 
it, it was sent to John Doe, and I had the buck slip there. 

Q You were essentially correcting misftakes that had 
been made? lj 

A Yes, sir. ' 

MR. McGRATH: " ' 

. . •' - 

Q Did you ever, during October-November '86, go 
back on your own or at the request of somebody and change 



ICLASSIEEIL 



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a document to indicate that it had not gone to somebody 
when the record, the Doc Log indicated that it had? 

A No; but let me clarify that. I had that 
authority to, as Deputy Director of the Secretariat, to 
ensure the integrity of all data bases. No one would 
ever ask me to do such a thing. And based on sc^eone 
asking me, I would, but I had the authority and responsibility! 
and duty to assure that integrity. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Did anyone ever ask you to alter a document log? 

A No. 

Q Entry? 

A No. 

Q That is during November '86, or even more broadly? 

A Never . 

Q Were you ever aware — I will limit this to 
November '86 — were you aware of any attempt to alter 
a document log entry other than yourself? 

A Why, I know other iecHStai/ personnel have the 
edit capability. The people at West Wing desk had the 
edit capability, so if they were noticing any inaccurate 
information on the System II document or System I document, 
they would make the correction. 

Q Were you aware of anyone making changes to the 
data base in 1986, November '86? 



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A Everyone m Secretariat can make changes to the 
data base. : f 

Q Do you know of any specific instances in which 
someone did that in November of 1986? 

A I know that has occurred by people. 

Q You knew that occurred in November '86? 

A It occurs all the rime. It is not an unusual 
event, is what I am trying to tell you. It is standard 
practice and standard requirements for people as they 
know errors to make the corrections. Most of those errors 
would be not in terms of the important history of the document, 
they would be in terms of incorrect staff officers, incorrect 
document dates, incorrect, inaccurate tersm in the description 
of title of the document, a document or information added 
to a prime document which had been added to an add-on 
document, . j; 

Let me— all of those changes that you are talking 
about are changes that are part of the effort to make the 
tracking of the document more accurate; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of anyone trying to make changes 
to make the tracking record other than the true tracking 
record? ' ■■.• 

-V... -. - > , j( 

A No. ; . \ .r. 

Q Now, if we could turn to the other System IV data 



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ba^se, just for linguistic purposes, what is the word we 
should use to call or to refer that the data, should we refer 
to it as System IV data base? 

A That would be correct. 

Q Could you briefly describe what the System IV 
data base i"? 

A The System IV data base are all data bases in 
the Secretariat's information management system. Its purpose 
is to record into a computer data base and tracking 
information from a dociunent, to include many things we 
can touch on, if you desire, and also to record the history 
of action taken upon that document from the moment that it 
first came into the NSC staff to the final moment when the 
action is completed on that document and we are preparing 
it to be filed. 

Q I have myself, just yesterday, saw printouts 
from that, so I don't think we need to go into great detail 
as to the type of information contained on that data base. 
I will try to ask a few specific questions. 
How many pages or screens of information are 
there on this data base for each document? 

A As many screens as is necessary. 

Q Is it typically just, one page per document? 

A I would think that that would be a good 
assximption. It is as many screens — our screens are 



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Infinite. So if I have to use 20 screens to record the 

fact that 400 people signed a letter, I use 20 screens. 

'Q Could we go off the record just a second? 

(Discussion off the record.) || 

BY MR . CAROME : 

Q During the period November 1986, or when you were, 
let's keep it to November '86, what did someone need to do 
in order to have access to an edit capability of the System 
IV data base? 

A There is no edit capability as such in the System 
IV data base. The fact the data base exists means you can 
duplicate it. 

Q Someone who gets the data base up on the screen 

can change it; is that right? jf 

i' ■ ' 
A Yes, sir. _ , 

Q What does it take to get the data base up on 
one ' s screen? 




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BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Let me ask you a few particular questions to see if 
I can flesh this out just a little bit more. 

A Can we go off the record for a second so I can 
explain something? 
Q Yes. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. CAROME: Back on the record. 
MR. ROSTOW: Only three people could, to your 
knowledge, do all of /thsoei steps you have outlined? 

THE WITNESS: Well, in System IV, but this is a 
standard format for all. 

MR. ROSTOW: For System IV? 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 

MR. ROSTOW: But only three people could do it; 
is that right? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. ROSTOW: For System IV? 

THE WITNESS: YeSj 



WITNESS: Yes. sirj_. ^— . 

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Q During November 1986, did you alter the System 
rv data base records for any documents? 

A I never altered. 1 edited, updated, created, 
closed records. 

Q For example, did you 

A Which means a change in information. 

Q What you are talking about is in the nature of 
correcting misspellings or correcting inappropriate entries? 



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A Or just recording what was done with the document, 
standard. 

Q Updating it? 

A Yes. 



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1 "' Q Do you recall making any changes in November 1986, 

2 to data base: records for documents as old as five or six 

3 months or more old? 

4 A I don't specifically recall, but if a document 

5 that was five or six. months old was opened and the action 

6 was completed on that document during that time period, yes. 

7 What about for closed documents? Did you make any 

8 alterations on documents that were closed out for as 

9 long as five or six months at that point? 

10 A If documents were reopened, yes. 

11 Q What about ones that were closed and not reopened, 

12 did you make any changes to those documents? 

13 A Other than routine minor editorial auditing 

14 purposes, if I noticed mistakes. If I were in a retrieval 

15 system and saw a misspelling, or I changed it — for the 

16 reporting cables, you know, I instituted a new system. 

17 MR. McGRATH: You are not concerned with reporting 

18 cables. 

19 THE WITNESS: Okay.. 

20 MR. ROSTOW: So you don't specifically recall? 

21 THE WITNESS: Not on System IV documents, no. 

22 But on reporting cables, yes. 

23 MR. ROSTOW: You don't have a specific recollection? 

24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 
25 



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BY MR. CAROME: 

Q In November 1986, did anyone come to you seeking 
assistance in modifying, changing, editing, altering a record 
in the System IV data base? 

A No. No one would have that ability to 

Q And, in fact, no one did make such a request; 
is that right? 

A No one did, that is right. 

Q And to your knowledge, I take it, no one other 
than you made any alterations to the System IV data base 
during November 1986; is that right? 

A Not alterations. Changes. The term 

Q Was it 

A Alteration to me implies changing data to give a 
false 

Q That is right. 

A Okay. Alterations, no. Changes in terms of updatim^ 
correcting, recording v«rtiat was done with a document. That 
was standard procedure, a daily occurrence. 

Q Who else did that? 

A In System IV? 

Q Yes. 

A The only people who could have done it would have 
been George Van Eron, and John Ficklin. For practical 
purposes during that time pej'iodj^Jthej^^ere not involved. 



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1 Tliey are back-up personnel only if I am not there. 

2 Q Do you know whether or not their back-up 

3 services were required at any time during November 1986? 

4 A I don't recall that it was. 

5 Q Just so the record is abundantly clear, you 

6 are not aware of any attempts to falsify the data records 

7 in the System IV data base at any time in November 198 6; 

8 is that right? 

9 A I am not aware of any attempts. 

10 Q By you or anyone else? ' ' 

11 A By me or anyone else. 

12 Q If we could turn now briefly to the subject of what 

13 you have described earlier as read files, could you tell me 

14 what read file was in the System IV system? 'f 

15 A Read file was a large accordian envelope, folder, 
15 and I would put the suspense copy of documents — of System 

17 IV documents. I didn't have the original. And the original 

18 IV copy of System IV documents where action was completed, 

19 into that folder, and circulated cunong the senior directorate 

20 staff of the intelligence directorate for them. And it 

21 reflected the day's activity in System IV. 

22 Q And those documents, either copies or originals, 

23 would be circulated to the other professionals in the 

24 room 300 complex; is that right? * -»' 

25 A That is right. 



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Q Was it circulated outside room 300? 
A Never by me, no. 

Q And what was the purpose of circulating all the 
System IV documents to those people? 

A To keep the intelligence directorate head and his 
immediate staff knowledgeable of what was going on. 

MR. McGRATH: Would the suspense original ever 
be circulated in that read file without the computer 
entry? 

THE WITNESS: There was no computer entry that 
reflected the read file. 

MR. McGRATH: No. No. No. The substantive 
information having been entered into the System IV data base? 

THE WITNESS: Very, Very Teurely, and only in the 
context of if I were working late at night, I had 15 items, 
you know. I would have it in Doc Log always, but I may not 
have had a chance to put the last item in 4^ the data base. 
It would go in the read file. I would get it back. But if 
I did that, I would put notations to myself. Yellow stick-ems 
on ray lamp. That rarely happened. My practice was not to 
put something in the read file that was not in the data base. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Just so it is clear, it was your practice to 
put into the read file all incoming System IV documents; 



is that right? 



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A Suspense copies or originals, if they required no 
action; yes. '' i 

Q Do you know whether or not your predecessor, Mr. 
Radzimski, followed a similar practice? ' * 

A I believe that he did. 

Q And what do you base that belief on? 

A It seems logical to me that he would have. He 
may have mentioned it. I don't specifically recall him 
mentioning it, but he also may have mentioned it. 

Q I gather, that in November 1986, when you took up 

this practice, or began yourself circulating a read file, it 

did not come as a surprise to the professionals in room 300 

that you were doing it; is that right? They didn't say 

why are you doing this? ;.- 

I' 
A I don't think so, no. ■ • 

Q And just so it is clear, who are the people who 
would see the read file in November 1986? .; 

A Well, it would be routed to the professionals. 
Ken DeGraf fenreid, Vince Cannistraro — always to Ken 
DeGraf fenreid first, and the others who could see it, and 
not necessarily saw it all the time would be Vince Cannistraro 
Gerald May, David Major and, of course, the secretaries 
downstairs, primarily June Bartlett and Pat Ralston, and 
rarely the secretary upstairs. If it came upstairs, it came 



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Q And did this read file circulate from person to 
person in the normal course? 

A What do you mean by in the normal course? It was 
there to be circulated to all the professionals downstairs. 

MR. ROSTOW; Could the professionals have shown 
the read file to someone outside of room 300? 
THE WITNESS: They could have. 
(Exhibit No. BTM-2 and 3, were marked for 
identification. ) 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q Mr. Merchant, I show you what has been marked 
as Exhibit 2. I will state for the; record that it is 
a Xeroxed copy of a piece of paper that says at the top, 
"White House" — or "The White House, Washington." 
Let's go off the record for a second. 
(Discussion off the record. 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q It has a Roman Numeral IV at the top, and then 
six numbers on it, among other notations. 

MR. ROSTOW: The record should reflect the Roman 
Numeral and the numbers zure handwritten. 
BY MR. CAROME: 
Q And I ask you, Mr. Merchant, do you recognize what 



that document is? 



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What is it? 

A It is a list of numbers that was given to me to go 
to the files and pull these System IV documents. 

I guess if you could just tell us in narrative 
fojm what the incident was that this piece of paper 
i.elated to. 

A Well, as I recall, I believe this was on my desk, 
and 

Q Was an original handwritten copy on your desk 
or was it a Xeroxed copy; do you recall? ' " 

A I don't recall. But I don't think it was the 
original, no. ;! 2r 

And it was indicated to me, I believe, by June 
Bartlett, that these numbers were requested by Ken .DeGraf fenrejLd 
and would I pull the documents. m .y 

So, based upon that request, I went into the 
files looking for the documents. I was able to find all but 
one of the documents; the one document that I did not find 
I circled and I wrote a note — I Xeroxed this on a larger 
piece of paper and wrote a note. 

Q Let me stop you right there and show you what has 
been marked as Exhibit 3, and ask you is that the note that 
you were referring to? 

A Yes. That is the note I was referring to. 



Why don't you continue wi 



I't you continue wit h- tb « 



e story? 



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A And I dated it November 21, 1986, which was the 
date of the request, and the date of the response. And I 
said the contents of the note. Do you want me to read this? 

Q No, you don't have to. 

What did you do with the note and the documents 
you pulled? 

A I put this on top of the documents. 

Q When you say this, you are referring to? 

A A sheet of paper just like this. 

Q A copy of what is marked Exhibit 3; is that 
right? 

A Yes. 

Q And you put that together with the documents, and 
where did you put the documents? 

A I believe I gave them to June Bartlett. Might have 
put them on her desk, if she wasn't there, but I took them 
downstairs to her desk. • j 

Q All of what you just described happened on November 
21st, 1986; is that right? 

A Yes. 

Q Just for the record, who is June Bartlett? 

A The secretary to Ken DeGraf fenreid. 

MR. ROSTOW: All of this occurred in room 300? 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 



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BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Do you recall whether June Bartlett orally 
asked you to pull out these documents? Is that what you 
recall happening? 

A My recollection is that it was on the — this 
note was on my desk. We probably talked. I may have 
asked 

Q We, meaning you and June Bartlett? 

A I said what is this, why is it on my desk; or she 
may have had a PROFs note to me, which I don't believe 
there was a PROFs note. She may have buzzed me on the 
intercom assuring that I had seen this. So I believe 
there was some sort of conversation, very briefly, to say that 
hey, did you see this, this note, this list? 

Q Did June Bartlett say that it was Ken DeGraf fenreid 
who wanted these documents pulled? ^ 

A I am under the impression that I recall that that 
was the case. But if it weren't, then I would assume it was 
the case, because she worked for him. 

MR. McGRATH: Do you have any specific recollection 
of her saying that Ken wanted them? 

THE WITNESS: I can't say specifically, no. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Do you think it is more likely than not that she 
actually said Ken wants these, or word? to that effect? 



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A I think it is likely that she did, yes. 

Q Did Ms. Bartlett say anything to you about why 
it was these documents were being pulled? 

A I don't recall such a statement, no. 

Q Was this in the morning or the afternoon of the 
21st? 

A I seem to recall that it was late morning and I 
responded early afternoon. 

Q Did someone bring the note up to you, your office, 
or you found the note sitting on your desk? 

A To my recollection, it was on my desk.- 

So it had been placed there while you were away 
from your desk; is that right? .. ■ • .■ .. , 

A Yes. That is my recollection. 

Q Did you at the time have any understanding of why 
these documents were being pulled? 

A No. 

Q Did you know that they all related to Colonel North' 
role with respect to support for the contras? 

A I knew what the titles were just by having to go 
into the system to identify the numbers to see where they 
would be filed. So I was aware of what the topic of 
the documents were. - -. 

Q Did you connect that with what was going on at 
the time? 



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There was nothing going on at the time 



on November 21st. 

Q Well, you knew at that time that there was a major 
uproar over the Iran arms deals; is that right? 

A There was an uproar in parts of Washington. There 
was no investigation and no formal requirement or any such 
other thing. 

Q But you did not connect this request for these 
documents in any way with the ongoing controversy about the 
Iran arms deals; is that right. 

Q No. 

MR. ROSTOW: Did you recognize the handwriting? 
THE WITNESS: At the time, no. 
BY MR. CAROMEi . ' ' ■' 

Q Do you recognize it now? 

A Yes. 

Q Whose handwriting is it? 

A McFarlane's. 

Q Was November 21st the first time you ever saw this 
particular list of documents? 

A Yes. 

Q When you say this list, do you know whether or not 
these various notations written along the right-hand edge of 
the page, one says "cover," one says "19 January," one 
says, "Yediot Ahronot, pAge 7"; do you know whether 
those notations were en this list when you gq.t^ i^' 



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A I don't recall the notations on the list. 

Q Do you know what they mean? 

A No. ,_.._.,,... 

MR. ROSTOW: In the normal course, if somebody 
asks you for a document, you would get the document 
without asking them why they want it? 

THE WITNESS: Not in the normal course. It would 
have to be someone in the directorate. It could be either of 
the secretaries, you know, and the assumption would be made 
if they are asking for it, that it would be for Ken 
DeGraf fenreid or Vince Cannistraro. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q And I gather what you understood you were being 
asked to do was to pull out the originals of these documents; 
is that right? 

A If they are closed, there is no other copy but 
the original in the file. 

Q And, in fact, were all the documents you pulled 
out the original documents? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you, at the time you pulled them, have an 
understanding that someone outside of room 300 was the 
person who was actually seeking the originals? 

A No. 

Q You didn't know that it was North who wanted 



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77 



these originals? 

A No. 

Q What is the next thing that happened with respect 
to the -- to these documents that you pulled? 

A Well, I never saw the documents again. However, 
I got my note back with a comment by June Bartlett that said, 
signed out to Ollie North. 

Q What you are referring to is the comment at the 
bottom of Exhibit 3, which is circled; is that right? 

A That is correct. 

Q Whose hemdwriting is that? 

A I would assume this is June Bartlett 's. 

I initialed by it and circled it, and then 
date staunped it. Then I went to the computer, for each 
of the log numbers, except for the one that was circled, 
and updated the computer to reflect that the originals were 
with Ollie North. 

O Which computer data base did you indicate that 
fact on? 

A The data base. It would not be Doc Log. 

Q What entry did you make on the data base? 

A I said, North, X, the date, which would be 11/25/86, 
FI, which translates for information, and changed the "S" 
code field, which we use for status to S, I believe, to 
indicate that it was not closed, it was open. 



ii MM icoincn 



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DiKUl^Rlt^T 



^ "' Q And those changes to the data base, as I understand 
2 it, were made on November 25th,, 198.6; is that right? 
2 A They were made the same date that I got this, 
A circled this, went immediately to the computer, 
g Q That was November 25? 
g A November 25. 

_ Q Did you speak to June Bartlett about what had 
o happened when these documents were picked up by North? 
A No. Not that I recall. 

Q Did you have any conversation with her about these 
documents after you got her note? 
A Not that I recall, no. 

Q Did you ever discuss the pulling of these 
documents with Ken DeGraf fenreid? 
A No. 

Q And that is to include times even after November 
1986, did you ever discuss it with him? 

A Pulling it, no. Or these documents, no. 
Q I believe that Mr. DeGraf fenreid has testified 
in his deposition about a discussion he had late one evening 
in December, when documents were being pulled, about these 
documents, and, I believe, basically he recalls you simply 
saying, these are the documents you pulled for North, and 
you brought them to him. Do you recall that occurring in 
December? 



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MR. McGRATH: Do you have his deposition here? 

MR. CAROME: I don't think I do. 

THE WITNESS: In the course of my fulfilling 
my role as the security officer and being significantly 
involved in researching, locating, identifying, pulling 
System IV documents for these investigations, I have 
discussed quite a few, if not all, the documents that we 
found with both Ken DeGraf fenreid. 

I had to give him documents to physically look at, 
to include the document with the computer data sheet that you 
are familiar with. It may have been what I believe I 
I would have been referring to at that time would have been 
the computer data sheets, because I would not have had the 
documents. , '' 

And the computer data sheets would reflect the 
fact that these documents, on this date when I updated it, 
said that these documents were now with Ollie North, 
because these numbers were in the list of numbers that 
we turned up in the search, but we could not produce the 
documents because they were not there. They had been 

given to Ollie North; according to this note. 

... - " 
BY MR. CAROME: '' 

Q And, in fact, you never got the documents back? 

A I never got the documents back. '_ 

Was that the first time since you became System IV 



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80 



control officer that original documents were requested 
by someone else? = 

A Of me? 

Q Yes. 

A Yes. 

Q Was that the only time that that occurred, in 
January? I am sorry. I am sorry. In November 1986? 

A I believe so. 

Q And specifically do you recall any other instances 
other than the one we were talking about before during 
November 1986, in which anyone asked for or received originals 
of System IV documents from you? 

A I don't recall, but as I said to you before, I 
have a listy a classified list that I have done on ray own 
that records all requests for System IV documents beginning 
with these documents by anyone of me from this date forward. 

Q And when you say this date, what date are you 
referring to? 

A November 25th. 

o That was the date on which you started keeping that 
list; is that right? 

A No. I started the list actually later. But up 
until the date I started the list and requirement that sought 
such a list, there have been no intervening requests for 



documents. 



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Q When did you start keeping that list of 
charged out or borrowed System IV originals? 

A I think it was mid December. 

Q And 

A It was based on an IC memo that had come in. 

Q And at that point in time, or to that point in 
time, between October 29th, when you started as System IV 
control officer, to that date, the only instances, or the 
only instances in which System IV originals were removed 
from the files, to you knowledge, was the one instance 
reflected on Exhibits 2 and 3; is that right? 

A That I can recall. If there were another instance, 
I can't recall; it would be on that sheet. I don't recall 
anything else in November, though. That sheet is a memo 
for the record. . 

Q Did you, in November 1986, ever see. any other person 
accessing the System IV original files? 

A I seem to recall once or twice when maybe 
June might have come up while I was there looking for soraethinc 

Q That is June Bartlett? 

A June Bartlett. 

Q Do you recall anyone else at any time accessing 
the original files in November 1986? 

A No, I don't believe there was anyone else — when 



I was there. 



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Q And there were times when you weren't there; 
is that right? 

A That is correct. 

Q And times during the normal office hours when you 
weren't there; is that right? 

A That is correct. 

Q But, for instance, you don't recall any of the 
following people, Oliver North 

A I never saw Oliver 

Q Or Ken DeGraf fenreid accessing the System IV 
original files; is that right? 

A No. 

Q And specifically neither, do you recall — do 
you recall neither North, Poindexter, or DeGraf fenreid ever 
asked you for any original System IV documents during November 
1986, except for this one event we have already talked to? 

A That is right. 

Q Are you familiar with the level of computer skills 
of Ken DeGraffenreid? 

A I am aware that he was trained on how to use the 
Display Writer, VAX machine. I believe those two machines 
are in his office. 

Q If he had the appropriate passwords and-user IDs, 
is it your understanding that he would be able to get into 
the System IV data base and make alterations||MPI Ax\l|'|| 



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A I wouldn't 

MR. McGRATH: Why don't we rephrase that. You 
really are asking him to make a very conclusive statement 
about something. Why don't we lay some factual predicate 
about his knowledge of DeGraf fenreid's skills. 

KT^., ROSTOW: You have, in fact — the question 
has already been asked and answered, because it has been 
established precisely what someone would have to know in 
order to be able to access the data base. '- 

BY MR. CAROME: 
Q I am asking did he have the basic computer know- 
how to be able to do the various steps that we talked about 
before in- terms of accessing the System IV data base? 

A Well, if by comouter know-how, you mean the fact 
that he was able to use his terminals, for example, a Display 
Writer to write memos and things like that, if that is 
what you mean, meaning he was familiar with the keyboard, then 
assuming he knew all the other steps and requirements, 
it is possible. 

MR. McGRATH: Do you have any reason to believe 
that he did know all of the other steps required? 

MR, CAROME: I do not — oh, you are asking him. 

THE WITNESS: Do I have any reason? „ 

No, I don't think he did. 



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BY MR. CAROME: 

Q And those others — all right. 

A I guess what I am — anyone with any basic 
computer sense, meaning you know how to use a terminal, how 
to put it on, and know all the other restrictions on it, you 
should have some ability, if he knows all these other things 
to do -- you know, to get into a file. 




Q To yourknowledge 

A To my knowledge, he did not know those things. 

Q He had the basic computer expertise, but didn't 
know the specifics to get into the system, as far as you know? 

A That is right. 

Q Would the same be true of Oliver North? If you 
don'^t know his computer background, don't answer it? 

A I don't know his computer background. I just 
know that staff was trained on how to use Display Writers. 

Q And the staff 

A And the VAX machines by WHCA personnel. 

MR. McGRATH: We can stipulate that Ollie did 
know how to use the PROF system. 

MR. ROSTOW: But that he couldn't spell. 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q Did you, during the course of your work at the NSC, 
come to know Oliver North? 



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A Yes. 

Q Did you know him well? 

A I thought I knew him okay. Not socially. 

Q Did you see him on a daily basis at work? 

A No. Maybe every other day. Just in the course 

of — maybe business or walking down the hall, or something 
like that. 

Q Where was his office in November 1986, with respect 

to your office? How close was it? 

A His office was in room 302, which is somewhat — 

an adjacent office around the corner. 

MR. ROSTOW: 302 is not in any way connected with 
room 300; is that right? 

THE WITNESS: There is no physical connection 
between them. You have to exit one door and go in through 
another door. 

BY MR . CAROME : ' ' . . ; ^ H' ■ 

Q Did you have any conversation with him about his 
System IV documents in November 1986? 

A No. Not that I can recall. No. 

Q Did you, during the course of your work at the 



NSC, come to know John Poindexter? 
A Yes. 
Q Did you come to know him well? 
A Not socially, but pretty well, i thought. 



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Q Did you have regular contact with him at work? 

A When I was West Wing desk coordinator, he was the 
one that really said he wanted me over in that position and 
I was able to go directly to him if I wanted to on any 
issue. 

Q During November 1986, did you have any contact with 
Poindexter? 

A Other than routine things, which means if I was 
walking upstairs and — delivering a memo, memos, things like 
that. But not in the context I think you are meaning. 

Q Did you have any talks with him in November 1986, 
about System IV documents or System IV data base or accessing 
original documents or anything like that? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware at any time in November 1986, of any 
attempts by anyone to clean up the files at the NSC in terms 
of shredding documents, destroying documents, altering 
documents? 

A No. And I specifically addressed this to 
altering documents. The destruction and shredding of 
documents in all the staff was a routine thing. I mean 
I destroyed and shredded documents as a routine part of my 

job. .'■:''* ^ ■' ' •' ■ ; 

Q Were you aware of any shredding with increased 
intensity going on in November 1986? 



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A I wasn't aware of such a thing, no. 

Q I don't have copy of it here, but are you aware 
of the one memorandum which we have referred to many times 
in our committee's hearings, that is often referred to as the 
diversion memorandum, which refers to the diversion of funds 
from the Iranian arms sales to the Nicaraguan Resistance. 

Q I am aware of it, yes. 

A And putting aside the fact that there may be 
slightly different versions of that document, are you aware 
of any other documents, NSC documents, that refer to the 
diversion of funds from the Iranian arms sales to the Nicaraguai, 
contras? 

A No , I am not . 

Q You don't recall ever seeing any such documents? 

A No, I do not. • V - ',. 

MR. McGRATH: The so-called diversion memo, were 
you aware of that prior to November 25, 1986? 

THE WITNESS: It was in the Tower Board, I believe 
MR. McGRATH: November '86? 
BY MR. CAROME: 

Q When did you first become aware of the diversion 
memorandum? 

A I can't give you a precise date. I believe some- 
thing in the Tower Board report. I also — we may have — I 
mean, when we did the search, we may have found such a memo. 



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O Were you aware of it at any time prior to, to 
pick a date, November 25, 1986? 

A No. I would be aware of it bascially only in the 
course of the investigation effort that we made to find stuff. 
That was how I was awaro of it. 

MR. CAROME: Let's go off the record for a second. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. CAROME: Let's go back on the record. 

I don't have any further questions. I want to 
thank you very much for talking to us yesterday and 
then talking to us today on the record. 

MR, ROSTOW: I would just like to make an observation 
for the record. That the diversion memo is printed in full 
in the Tower Board in Appendix B and that the copy from which 
that version was taken does not contain a system number of 
any kind. 

MR. McGRATH: I would like to note that Mr. 
Merchant appeared here today voluntarily, that he was 
interviewed at length by members of the Senate Select 
Committee staff in the spring of this year, that yesterday 
he met for approximately two and half to three hours with 
members of this committee and the Senate Committee staff 
in order to be cooperative with the committee's efforts 
to get to the bottom of the System IV and the existence of 
other memoranda. 



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89 
Thank you. 

MR. CAROME: Thank you very much. 
Off the record. 



1 

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3 

. (Whereupon, at 3:37 p.m., the deposition was concluded.) 

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OF PROCEEDINGS 



CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



DEPOSITION OF PHILIP HOWARD MEO 



^^mim 



Partially Declassified/Released on /J--il - /7 

under provisions of E.O. 12356 

by N. Menan, National Security Council 



Washington, D. C. 
Tuesday, March 31, 1987 



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.-:.. CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF PHILIP HOWARD MEG 
Washington, D. C. 
Tuesday, March 31, 1987 
Deposition of PHILIP HOWARD MEO, called for examination 
pursuant to notice of deposition, at the offices of the Select 
Conunittee, Room 901, Hart Senate Office Building, at 9:07 a.m. 
before WENDY S. COX, a Notary Public within and for the 
District of Columbia, when were present: 



JAMES E. KAPLAN, ESQ. 

W. THOMAS McGOUGH, JR., ESQ. 

LAWRENCE R. EMBREY, SR. , ESQ. 

United States Senate Select 
Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition 

Room 901 

Hart Senate Office Building 

Washington, D. C. 

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ. 
KENNETH R. BUCK, ESQ. 
House Select Committee 
U.S. Capitol 
Room H-419 
Washington, D. C. 20515 



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EXHIBITS 

DEPOSITION EXHIBITS IDENTIFIED 
Exhibit 1 10 

Exhibi€ 2 37 . 



I CONTENTS 

WITNISS EXAMINATION 

I Philip Howard Meo 

3 I by Mr. Kaplan 3 
by Mr. Fryman 4 2 

4 I 

5 I 

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1 PJioCMIDlMGS 

?. Whereupon, 

3 PHILIP HOWARD MKO 

4 was callod as a witness and, havim; Eirst been iluLy swoin, 

5 was examined arid testified as CoJJows: 

6 EXAMINATION 

7 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

8 Q (Jood morning. Mr. M«««*4, my name is .lames E. 

9 KaplaJi. I represent the Senate Se]ect Committee on Secret 

10 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition. 

11 As we discussed a bit earlier, you are appearing here today 

12 pursuant to a fm^imt subpoena issued by oiir committee tor T*- 

13 your testimony' in aanna a ti aw w i t > i i> i a< . ^ ubpuiu r id ' , you have 5Tt^ 

14 produced documents or a liocument that is responsive and 

15 represented that you don't have any other documents in your 

16 possession, custody or control that would be responsive to 

17 that subpoena. 

18 I wiJl be initially asking questioris today. As 

19 you know, Tom Fryman Erom the H(5use Seloct Commit teo is here 

20 and may have a tew questions to ask you wheti my inquiry is 

21 complete. 

22 If you don't understand ariy question, or if ytiu 



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want me to c:ldriCy any ot the wording that I use or 
otherwise, pjease feel free to ask me. I note for the record 
that you are -ippeariiKj here today without counsel, and th-it 
is by your own choice. 
A Right. 

Is that correct? 

Yes. 

Could you please state your nane for the record. 

Philip Howard Meo. 

Your hone address, Mr. Meo? 




Q Do you have a business address? 

A 824 East Baltiaore Street, Baltimore, Maryland 
20212. 

Q Hith whoa are you eaployed? 

A Aijora Publishing Company. 

Q What kinds of duties do you perform? 

A I sim a graphic artist. 

Q Could you describe your post-secondary education? 

A As college? I have had one year at the Art 

Institute of Philadelphia. I was there for a year and (our 



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I miMiths studying itommei'c ia I and .idvert is iivj art; and betoro 

7 that time, I just took various coDeqe courses in art sinct? 

i hii;h s<:l\ool. 

4 Q Any post-secondary education beyond that? 

5 A Not complete coileije. 

6 Q What were your dates ot attendance at the 

7 Philadelphia ArL Institute? 

8 A October 1, 198S, to fieptember of 1986. 

9 Q Did you obtain a degree? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q What was that degree? 

12 A Commercial art technician degree. 

13 Q I am going to switch now to your employment wii.h 

14 the Channel 1 organization, c:-h-a-n-n-e- 1-1 ; when were you 

15 hired by Mr. Channell? 

16 A Well, I wasn't hired by Mr. Channell. I was hired 

17 by Mr. McMahon, Steve McMahon, who works Tor Mr. channell as 

18 a CPA. I started with the Channell Corporation in January, 

19 the end of January of '86. 

20 Q Who was your actual employer? 

21 A Steve McMahon was my actual employer. 
?.?. Q Krom whom did you receive paychecks? 



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1 A Through NEPL. 

2 Q NEPI, stands for? 

J A The Nal.ioi)al Endowment for the I'reserva t ion ol: 

4 Liberty. 

b Q How long were you employed with the NaticinaJ 

6 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty? 

7 A Kiom November 1986. 

8 Q What position were you employed? 

9 At I was assistant bookkeeper. I was sort of Steve 

10 McMahon'3 ri<jht-hand nan. He needed someone to help him with 

11 the books, tfie pay books and the ledgers, and f undrai .^ii ng 

12 information. 

13 Q How did you firid out about the job opening? 

14 A He called me when I lived in Philadelphia. We 
lb spoke over the phone. I didn't have any job lined up on 

16 graduation of school, and he mentioned to me he mi'jht have a 

17 job opening with Spitz. I thought about it and called him 

18 back and told him I was interested. I just needed i job. 

19 That is how I got involved. 

20 Q Just to clarify for the reconl, could you state 

21 the full name of "Spitz"? 

2 2 A Carl R. Channel I. 

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Q I tdko it you knew Mr. McMdhoii boCore? 

A Yes, I fiave known Steve for about Tive years. 

Q CouLd you describe your i es pons ib L I L t less at NKPI,:" 

A To handle casfi disbursements, invoices, to draw 
checks, to handle t'undraising cliecks and lo>; them, ind just 
basic bookkeeping. 

Q In the course of your duties, did you also balance 
monthly bank statements? 

A ' No, Steve was responsible tor that. 

Q Did you handle account transfers with financial 
i nsti tuti oris? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you handle the payroll? 

A Yes. Steve and 1 did that together, but I did 
payrol 1 checks . 

Q You mentioned that you logged in contributions? 

A Right. 

Q Did you also deposit receipts or contributions? 

A Yes. 

Q Into various bank accounts? 

A Into Palmer National Hank. 

() Did you pay bills on behalf of NKPL? 



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I A Yes. 

?. , Q How do you know Mr . McMdhon? 

3 A I have known Mr. McMdhon since he lived in 

4 HaJtimciro before he moved to Washington. I met him through a 

5 circle of my Criends. 

6 C> Were there other people with whom you worked 

7 closely at NEeL? 

8 A Well, Steve was the closest person 1 worked with, 

9 except' Cor like Jane McLaughlin, we were re.il i;ood friends, 

10 and Angel a -Davi s , who is Spitz's secretary, we were all very 

11 close friends . 

12 Q Do you maintain contact witfi Mr. McMahon? 

13 A No, no. 

14 Q When did that contact break? 

15 A Well, actually, it broke after I had left Spitz's 

16 place of employment. After I left there, I was busy looking 

17 for other employment, and since tlie newspaper article popped 

18 up, since the newspaper article I saw came to print, X was 

19 really angered. 

20 Q Which newspaper article aiR.you referring to? 

21 A That was the Sun Paper. I think it r.in March LS. 

22 Q In between the time '.that ydu terminated employment 



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I with the Chdnnell -jioups and this March lb newspaper .iiticLt?, 

? had you kept in contact with Mr. McMrthoi. during that period? 

3 A No, no. 

4 Q Had you kept in contact with Ms. McLaughlin sxur.e 

5 the time you terminated? 

6 A No. 

7 Q What about fn<jeU Davis? 

8 A No. 

9 . Q Is there anyone with whoa you were employed at 

10 NP.PL that you have le.ained in contact since your teraination 

11 at NKPL? 

12 A No, sir. ...... 

13 Q What was the reason Cor your termination? 

14 ^ There was a change in their management system. 

15 They wanted to hire a CPA with a degree, and I wasn't a 

16 registered CPA. I was just someone to help balance thrt 

17 books. That was the reason for the letter I showed you. 

18 MR. KAPLAN: For the record, the lettor to whir.h 

19 Mr. Meo just referred is the letter that he produced in 

20 response to the Senate and House subpoenas. It is a June ?. , 

21 1986 letter, purportedly from Stephen M. McMahon to Mi. Mfc. 

22 we might as well have that marked as noposition KxhibiU I. 



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1 • ; , (Oepo;iition Exhibit I iden t i t iiid . ) 

2 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

3 Q Mr. Meo, you siiahed a bil. eaiiier Ll\dt-. you 

4 terminated empJoyment with Mr. ChanneJJ'r organization in 

5 September? ,.,, 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q This letter, which purports to be a Jetter of 

8 thanks and recommendation, essentially, Erom Mr. McMahon, is 

9 dated, as I stated a moment earlier, June 2, 1986. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Can you just expJain for us what prompted this 

12 letter.' 

13 A Right. 

''i4'^"' ■ Q And how, the time gap between the date of this 

15 letter and your termination? 

16 , - A Steve wrote the letter in my presence at his 

17 home. After that time, until September, he told me I could 

18 stay on until 1 found other employment. So that was the time 

19 <jap. I waa tryincj to gain other employment. They were 

20 looking for a replacement in between that gap. 

21 •' Q Now, I also believe that you testified a little 

22 earlier that you attended school fiom October 19flS until 



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1 September 1986. 

2 A Or wds it '81. I think it wds '84, yes. 

J Q Were you employed with NEPL ^t the same time you 

1 were in dttendance at school? 

5 A No. I had moved back to Philadelphia in the 

6 beginning of January and started with them at tfie end o£ the 

7 month . - . ^. . • ■. . v 

8 Q So then I take it that that school preceded your 

9 employment with NEPL? 

10 A Right. 

11 Q And that you concluded your studies prior tci youi 

12 employment with NEPL? 

13 A Well, I had gone to school first and then jc>incd 

14 NKPL. " " ■'* ■ - ■■ ■ ■ - . 

15 Q You mentioned that Mr. McMahon wrote this letter 

16 while he was at home. Did he commonly keep National 

17 Endowment, for the Preservation of Liberty stationery at his 

18 home? 

19 A I believe so. 

20 Q How many bank accounts did NEPL have, to your 
?.l knowledge? 

22 A I believe there were either 12 or 13 accounts. 

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1 Q tn whicli tixdnciai ins t i t-.ut ions were those 

2 dccoiints mai ritdi ned? 

3' A The majority o£ them were at PaJnier, and I think 

4 one or two oC them were at Rig(;s National Bank. 

■5 C! fJjd NKPL maintain any accounts at K . K . HiittonV 

6 A Yes. We had an E.F. Hutton — I believe it was 

7 Money Manager, some kind of account with them, and a lot ot 

B times Cunds were wired Crom E.F. Hutton into Palmer or Palmer 

9 accounts. 

10 Q Was the K.F. Mutton account in Washington, d'.C.I 

11 A Yes, Crom my knowledge, yus. 

12 Q What would be the reason tor having to wire funds 

13 Crom the K.F. Hutton account into a Palm«r National il.ink 

14 account also in the same city? 

15 A IC Cunds were low in our Palmer account, we would 

16 call E.F. Hutton and find out stock information and how much 

17 the stock would be worth, and they would take care ot wiring 

18 money to cover, like, our expenses, that would be paid out ot 

19 our Palmer account. They would make deposits into tho Palmor 
?.0 bank to cover our checks. , 

21 Q When you say "the Palmer ac<;ount," is there one 

2?. particular account to whic^i you are referring? 



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A Primarily iL was the .jenerai NUPL .iocouiit that we 

would pay bills out oC . 

Q Do you recall the account number or any special 

desi'iiiation Cor that account? 

A No, I don't. 

Q How was that account designated on the internal 
accounting records or ledger sheets ot the organization? 

A It was just the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty. That was it, the general account. 

Q • You described earlier that part of your 
responsibilities was making deposits into various bank 
account s ? 

A Right, right. 

Q Can you describe how deposits were handled? 
A Yes. When we got fundraising money, the 
fundraisers would receive from their contributors, the checks 
were given to me and my superior, either Oan Conrad or our 
treasurer. Cliff Smith, would either tell me what account 
these checks were for, what project they were for, and wc had 
different deposit tickets for each account, and they wt-re 
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1 Q You meiiLionrtd earlier that Slieve McMalion was youf 

2 priiicipa) supervisor at NEPL. 
-3 A Ricjht. 

4 Q Did you also respond to directions or instructions 

5 <;iven by Mr. Conrad? 

6 A^ . Yes, yes. 

7 Q Ml. Smith aa well? 

8 A Yes . 

9 Q What kinds of instructions wouJd Mr. Conrad or 

10 Mr. Smith normally ';ive you? 

11 A Usually -- well, Uan Conrad was the guy, he would 

12 run the ship when Spitz wasn't in the oEfice. This was ovur 

13 on Capitol Hill in our old office. I took instructions from 

14 Dan, who was my immediate supervisor, spe<:ially when Steve 

15 wasn't in the office, I spoke to Dan. Jf I had any problems 

16 I would go to Dan, and if he waan't available I would i;o to 

17 Steve. I would call him via phone to his home. 

18 Q Did you have occasion to deal directly with 

19 Mr. Channell himself? 

20 A No, not that much. 1 think the whole Lime I was 

21 there, I only spok« t(j Spitz either two or three times. 

22 Q So, correct me i f 1 am wiony, contributions would 



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1 come in pursuaiiL to tundi'aisurs? 

2 A Right. *, •?^ ■ j 
J Q Reijues ts ? ; ' 
1 A Night. ;• •, 

5 Q And then NEPI. would receive the contributions? 

6 A Yes . 

7 ii Either Mr. Conrad or Mr. Saith wouJd designate to 
fl which accounts those contributions were to be deposited? 

9 , A Yes, aJso the fundraisers would too. They would 

10 tell me what checks are to be filtered into wh.it account. 

11 Q Which fundraisers are you referring to? 

12 A To Jane Mcl.auyhlin and Chris Littledale. 

13 Q Is it your understanding that the f undraisei .«! made 

14 their own determinations as to which accounts contributions 

15 would be tunneled into? 

16 A I think that was up to Spitz and Dan. t really 

17 think that was up to them. 

18 Q Is it fair to say then that it's your 

19 understanding that the ultimate destination of any 

20 contribution was decided by Mr. Channell or Mr. Coniad? 

21 A I am sure, I am almost sure. 

22 Q rjid Mr. McMahon ever decido the destination or 




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1 deposit ot Any particular «:onLribution ? 

2 A If: we had questiotis about what account a check 

3 should be placed into, he would take it up with either Dm or 

4 Spitz. My job was just to aake deposits into those 

5 accounts . 

6 Q In your experience at NEPL, were all deposits 

7 attributable to contributions? 

g A Maybe once or twice we would get refunds fro« a 

9 conpany Cor overpayment or soaething like that. But the 

10 majority ot the deposits were contributions. 

H Q To your knowledge, did you handle all deposits? 

'12 A The majority of them, yes. 

13 Q When you say the majority of them, are there ;?omrt 

14 that you might not have handled? 

15 A Hell, I am really not sure about this, but I am 

16 sure maybe once in a while Steve would make a deposit or 

17 CliCC would make a deposit at the bank. Hut I would say 

18 maybe 95 percent of the time, I would go and make the 

19 deposits at Palmer. 

poll Q oid you ever see the monthly statements for Ihe-sc 

21 checking accounts? 
yp A X saw the monthly statements, but I didn't balance 




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1 th«m, .13 I saL<i edriier. 

2 C) So i t is possible that there were deposits th^t 
^ wete made tliat you wouldn't have known about? 

4 A Piobably, yes. 

5 U Other than wire transCers trom the K . f . (luti.on 

6 accounts into the Palmer National Bank accounts, were thure 

7 any other wire transfers into the Palmer National Hank 

8 accounts of which you are aware? 

9 . \ Not from the outside. There were transfers made 

10 within the Palmer accounts from account to account through 

11 the bank. 

I?. Q Who would direct that those transfers be mdde? 

ll \ Either Steve or myself. 

14 Q What would instigate a wire tiansfer being ni<tde 

15 from one internal account to another intern-il account? 

16 A Lack of funds in an account that we had to --if 

17 we h«d written a check on an account, that wouldn't have -- 

18 the funds wouldn't have covered, then we would make the 

19 transfer from account to account. 

20 Q Did you have authority to make those transfers? 

21 A Yes. A letter, I believe, was sent to P.ilmer Hank 
2^ from Oan Conrad giving me the authoiity lo do so. 



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1 Q Did yi)u have to check with someone before you maiie 

2 those transfers? 

3 A No, X didn't really have to teJ J unyone. UsuaJly, 

4 i€ there was a transfer to be made, Angela would tell me when 

5 I got to work. Every once in a whiJe Dan wouJd come in and 
b tell me we need a transfer or just make a transfer. That's 

7 how that was handled. 

8 Q And then the ones that you figured on your own, 

9 when you made the transfer, would you report t<5 someone after 
10 the fact that you had made that transfei? 

It A It was logged in the book, and I would have -i 

12 receipt from the bank backing up the transfer, arid fiteve 

13 would be notified. 

14 Q Uhat would constitute being low in an account? 

15 A Proa paying invoices and bills. That was the bit; 

16 reason. He had a lot of bills that we paid every month. 

17 Q Uhat kinds of bills were the big ticket items? 

18 A I think the biggest would be consultation fees 

19 from different companies. 

20 Q Can you describe some of those consul tat iori fe:es 

21 and to which coapanies? ' 

22 A We had a lot of -- oh, okay. One monthly bill was 



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Erom IBC. Another one was Crom Curt Herdqe & fcssocidtfts, who 
were attorneys for NEPI,. They used to prepare reports overy 
month tor each account, and utility bills and so Corth. 

Q Would you just describt; for the record what ( HC 

stands tor? 

H Internationa] Business Communications. 

Q What kind of monthly Eees would qo to 
International Husiness Communications? 
.» fc.u h • I can't .Jive you i definite ballpark fitjure, but 
it had to be at least over $1000 a month. 

(j Why were there 12 or 13 different accounts in the 
Palmer National Hank? 

h Each account stood for a project, to my 

knowledge. We had the National Endowment for Preservation of 
Liberty general accounts, the t>« > K ii t accounts, each account 
was in this case named for, I believe, a contributor. Then 
we had an ATfcC SEF account, ATAC KED state election fund and 
federal election fund. 

Q What is ATAC, for the record? 

A 1 think it was a project. I wasn't really sure- 

ATAC was a project. /'— --^•W» 

Q Could that have stood for the Antiter r or ism^of 



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1 America acc<3unt? 

2 A Yes. We had ACT account, American Conservative 

3 Trust, stdto election Cund and federal election fund account, 

4 and a Sentinel account, and 1 think I an leaving out <i few 

5 accounts, but I couldn't remember all 13. 

6 Q So X take it for the most part, there were 

7 accounts for each o£ the diCCerent Channell organizations? 

8 . A Right. 

9 U Is it fair to say that for the National Endowment 

10 for the Preservation of Liberty, there was more than one 

11 account? " ' .- ' . _- , ^^ 

12 A Right. 

13 Q Hhat was the Riggs account? You referred to the 

14 Riggs National Bank account earlier? 

15 A Spitz had an account called the Channell 

16 Corporation account with Riggs, and money in it was like 

17 ' $39. It never grew. It was just collecting dust in a 

18 drawer. ■: . . • 

19 Q Has there any activity in that account during your 

20 tenure at the National Bndowaent Cor the Preservation of 

21 Liberty? 

2?. A When I started in January, until the time T l*;ft. 




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1 I I'.hink one or two checks were writLeii out o£ it. I don't 

2 know what the checks were, but we had iusued a couple oC 

3 checks out of that account. 

4 Q How were checks or disbursements from the accounts 

5 handled.' 

6 A Paying invoices? 

7 Q Yes. 

8 ^ A The invoices I would receive every month. I would 

9 hand 'them over to Dan. He would look over the invoices. I 

10 would draw checks out for each invoice, and he would sign on 

11 the checks, and I would mail them and keep a copy oC the 

12 invoice for our records. 

13 Q Were checks or disbursements always made pursuant 
M to an invoice? 

^5^ A Usually, usually. 

16, _ , Q Were there any checks or disbursements to payees 

17 that you didn't recognize? 
IB A Every once in a while, I would get an invoics tov 

19 something that was foreign, to my knowledge, and I wouJd (lAtid 

20 that over to Dan tor his i ns t i-u<:t Ions . 

21 Q Was it a payment to a foreign source or a source 

22 of which you were not previously aware? 



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1 A Ricjhl: . 

2 ft What is it? 

3 A Just an invoiCB £roai a company here in 

4 Washinyton. 

5 (2 Were there any wire transfers froa the Palmer 

6 National Bank or E.F. Hutton account other than to othet 

7 Channel 1 -rel ated accounts? 

a A Kvery once in a while a contributor would make a 

9 wire jnto one of our accounts. He are talking naybe a large 

10 sum of money from a company that a contributor would own. 

11 That's to my knowledge. 

12 Q. Do you recall any of the specific wires? 

13 A I can't remember the names of the company, but 

M there were maybe three or four in the time that I worked for 

15 Spitz that we got — the bank would call me, a girl by the 

16 name of Kathleen that worked in the wire transfer department 

17 would call me and let me know that there was a wire, we will 
IB receive into a certain account, and I would get a receipt 

19 from the bank the next day. '• 

20 Q Do you remember Kathleen's last name? 

21 A No, I don't. 

22 Q She was at Palmer National Bank? 



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A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. c:hdnnel] have <i special bariking account? 

A Other than his Channell CotpoiM Lion account wiih 
Kigqs, I am. really not suie it we had a personal account. 

Q Was an account maintained tor something th.it was 
referred to as the Toys project? 

. . K Yes. That name was also directrtd i-o the NEPL 

number 2 account or the patent account. 
-Q What was the Toys project? 

A .The Toys project, from what I have been told, was 
tot' (juns and ammunition. 

Q Who told you that? 

K Steve McMahon made a statement to in« when I Citrst 

started in January, and later on, I believe it was in the 
early or late sprim; or early summer, by Chris Littledalc. 

Q Did Mr. McMahon volunteer that intormation to you? 

A Well, we were going over the accounts when r. first 
started, and he told me that this number 2 account, which is 
also the j^SiSriH't .iccount, is als<J for Toys, Toys account, 3"- 
which stands for gims and ammunition. 

Q Did he desc;ribe guns and ammunition for whom? 

A That was it. That was left at that. That's all 




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Q Had you «ver come to an under standi nc, yourself .s \ 

,., ,o. -ho. the .un. and a.«unition were to be pu..has.d7 

A NO. 

Q no you re«e.be, -hen Mr. Littledale spok« -ith you 

^bout this gytfr^'l eor the Toy. project? 

A Right. AS 1 said earlier, in the 5pan of tin,e, 

.aybe the early or late sprin. or su..er, Chri. -ould sit U 

.y des., before I would .et to worK at 10:00. 1 Cound so.e | 

papers belon.in. to hi. and a defense .a.a.ine with pictures , 

, ^- Janice It -as Uke a c.atnU.g or 
of a«.unition, airplanes, tanks. Jt -as . 

defense .agazine. I don't re.e.ber the na.e. 

But I ca.e into -ork and I looked at it. After 

looking at the .agazine, Chris ca.e into our office, -hu:h .t 

that ti.e -a, a kitchen, believe it or not, and I handed hi^ 

" .agazine. I can't re.e.ber the state.ent that I n,.de, t,ut h. 
answered .e - he replied, "thafs -hat -o a.e ra.s.ng .on.y 

••^ 7 r-an't remember what I 
for," in reference to this magazine. 1 can t re 

said to hi. though. 

Q were you told -hy the project -as referred to as 



the Toys project 



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/v I doii' L know why- 

r,id you discuss the designation of the Toys 

project wil.h anyone else? 
A NO. 
Q Anyone else at the National F.ndowment for t ho 

Preservation oC Liberty? 
A NO. 
Q Did you ever hear anyone else discuss any project 

refeireii to as Toys? 

A The only ti-e the -ord "Toys" was biouqht up Is 
the instance -hen Jane Mcf.aa.jhlin .,ave «e a ch«.:Vc to he 
deposited into the Toys account, and Chris Littleda.e aUo 
had a check Cor the same account, and that was it. 

Q «ho else in the oftice would be familiar with the 
Toys designation Eor that project? 

A T am sure all the fundraisers would be. 
Q By "all the fundraisers," can you give us . list? 
A There were a few people that were new when ^ 
left. But the primary people, Jane McLaughlin, Chr.s 
Uttledale, Clitt Smith, was also a fundraiser, but he was 
.,.o a treasurer. X am sure the fundraisers, aU oH .he. 



would know, plus my supe 



riors, Dan, and, of course. Spit/ 



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Q When you had i.l\is discu:5sion with Mr. Li 1 1. ledd Ic , 
you mentioned that he mitde a. re/erence to this ffl<tgav!in«. 

A Right. 

Q That you had found on your desk? » 

\ Right. ." e 

Q He said, "that's what we are raising money for"; 
is that correct? ,, . • . , • 

A Yes. 

()' Could you again describe which magazine he was 
reEerring to? 

A It was some kind of magazine called "defense" 
something. r remember the word "defense." The magazine 
showed you pictures of tanks, warfaie, ammunition. 

Q Had you flipped through the magaxine so you knew 
what kinds of pictures were in it? • / 

A Yes, I looked through it. I looked through the 
whole magazine. 

Q Just a point of clarification, it was your 
understanding th.it what Mr. Littledale was telling you, I 
take it, is that ycui weren't raising funds to purchase a 
subscription to the magazine? ' ' 

A No, sir. Tfiis -- 1 knew at that time that the 




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I in(i(;dzine had to ii«a I with the Tuys account. 

? Q So, i i; it tair tci say then that ycm under s tJJSi''*'' 

3 W»** Mr. LitLlftfldlo to be tellin<; you that NEei, was laiiinc; 

4 funds to purchase iha products that were shown in the 
b maijdzine ? 

6 A Maybe not necessarily in that magazine, but T 

7 think his remark was, in general, Eor any kind oc ammunition 

8 or wartare. 

9 () Beyond what you have told us already, do you know 

10 how moniesi were designated to the Toys project or to be 

11 depo.sited into an account dedicated to the Toys pto;iect? 

12 \ ■ Yes. Fundraisers would let me know what ac^count 

13 checks were for. Usually, if they were involved with a 
M project, we would receive all of the monies at one time. 

15 Q What kinds of -- what amounts of money were 

16 designated for the Toys project? 

17 A All kinds. 

18 Q Can you give us a ballpark figure over time? 

19 A That's really difficult for me to do. t do know 

20 that, if this will help you, if you have heard the name ciC 

21 Kllen (jarwoi^d, a check from her, a person.ii check would come 

22 in from her, Harbara Newington was ariothei check that was 




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real t'dmilidr with me. 

'■ Q Ts it your uiidrr stand i ng that the cont ri tiut ions 
tiotn Mrs. Garwood ^nd Mrs. Newjmjtoii were design.ited for use 
in t^^e Toys project? 

A T remember their checks going into that account. 
Another person who gave his money was Mr. Claggett, if! i.hat 
name rings a bell with you. 
Q Yes . 

His check would also go in the Toys accounts. 

By Toys accouDt, you are referring to which 



K 

Q 
account? 

A 
account. They all mejn the same thing 



The paVoi i t number 2 account or tfie NEPL nuinbei ? ■'•' 



U Did any money go into the NETI, number 2 account or 



the p a t a ht number 2 account which was not spent Cor the Toys i»^ 

1 
project? I 

A Usually, again, as I mentioned before, if funds ; 

I 
were running low in that account, we wouiil make a tianstoi or 

funds from another accovint to cover checks writtefi into that 

book . 

Q Is it fair to say that everything that went into 

that account was used tor the Toys project, to your 




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1 knowLedije? 

7. A From ccintri butoi s ' s checks, yes. 

.5 Q And how was money spenL or disbursed Crom that 

1 account? 

5 A Usually, i f we ran low in our general NKPL 

b account, then t would be advised, probably by Dan, he really 

7 gave ne a Jot o£ instructions about hank books. He wouJd 

8 just come to me and say, well, just write oliecks out ot an 

9 accoitiit that we have money in to cover our invoices. So, you 

10 know, since we had so much money in the T(}ys account, I would 

11 issue checks out ot that account to pay invoices. 

12 Q After money went into this Toys account, i.o whom 

13 were checks primarily written, and in particular? 

M A Just reijular businesses that we dealt with. 

15 Q Now, I may not be making myself very clear. A;: r 

16 understand it, we have got a lot o£ money ci}ming rrom 

17 contributions that's being designated for the Toys project 

18 and deposited into a particular account at the Palmer 

19 National Bank. 

20 A Right. 

7\ Q Is that correct? 

22 A Yes. 




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1 Q You i.estiEieii a couple minutes e.irlier that It's 

2 your understanding that the Toys project referred to funds 

J that weie teceived th.iL were to be used tur the purchase of 

4 guns and dmmuni ti on . 

5 .. A Right. 

6 Q What I am trying to understand is once the money 

7 went int<j the account designated for l:he Toys project, where 

8 did that money go to carry out the purpose of purchasing guns 

9 and ammunition? 

10 A Sir, I have no idea, but I do remember an instance 

11 that a chei;k was written out of the Toys account made payable 

12 to IRC for !?1,2S0,000. ■' 

13 Q Do you recall when that check waa written? 

14 A It wrts sometime in May. I am not sure of the 

15 date, but it was sometime in May, an<i the order was given to 

16 me by Dan Conrad. It was like, very hurried, came in to mi', 

17 we need this check, if you have to make a transfer from K.L". 

18 Hutton, whatever, do it, because we need the check right 

19 away. I remember making the check out. I typed it ami thi;n 

20 handed him the check, and thrit was that. '■' 

21 Q Were there funds in the account to cover the 

22 check? 



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r ; t. ,1 r A I had l-o mdke a LraiKstor. 

'2 r* Q Where did the transfer ccitne from? 

'3' "- A t believe the LransFor came from E.F. HuLton. 

4 • y Is it fdir Ici say that most of the moticy thdt was 

5 dishuiseii or spent trom the account designated Coi- the Toys 

6 project went to I BC during your tenure at NKPL? 

7 A Well, usually, IBC was paid out of our general 

8 account. That instance, that was the only time I can recall 

9 a check' being drawn out of the Toys account Cor IBC. 

10 Q When this !»1,2?)0,000 check was written, did • 

11 Mr. Conrad say anything Lo you about the purpose oE the 
I?. check? 

U A No. ■ . 

lA' ^ Q Did you ask him -- 

15 A No. 

16 Q -- about the purpose of the check? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Was the anount of the check out of line with other 

19 checks that you had written during ycjur time at NF.Pt.? 

?0 A It was a great deal of money. After he tiad taken 

21 the check, he left on vacation. He was in San Franc isi-o Cor 

22 a week. I had no way ot getting in contact with him. Stt:ve 




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1 knew dbouL the check also, ami t think iSl.eve wanteil y.o ilo .1 

2 to]. low-up pay stub to support what i nforind ti on -- what was 

3 the check for. You know, we would try 1.0 i;ol. i nliorm* t ion on 
A checks that were written, what was it lor; and T leally don't 

5 think we got the inCorma tion . I know Steve wanted to try to 

6 cfieck up on it, but I don't know i C he got the information 0/ 

7 not. 

8 Q What kind of information would Steve have wanted 

9 to get.? "" " ^• 

16 ''" A ProbabJy a statement Ci om Dan about the purpose o£ 

11 the check, and he would usually — Steve would usually jot 

12 down things on the check stub of what the check was for, and 

13 Steve would know what checks were for. 

14 Q To clarify the record, when we refer to fit eve, we 

15 are talking about Mr. MoMahon? 

16 A Mr. McMahon, right. 

17 Q Did you discuss the $1.25 million check with 

18 Mr. McMahon? 

19 ' A No. . ... 

20 ~' Q Do you know if Mr. McMahon ever discussed it wilh 

21 Mr. Conrad? 

22 A I am really not sure. 



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ill Q Was Lhe itirorma t ic>n th<»L Mr. M(!Mahon wantPdl l.u gr!i 

7. about tht" check ever received from Mc . Conrad? 

3 A I don't know that either, sir. 

4 Q During your time at NKPL, did you have any 

5 contacts with Lieutenant Colonel Olivet' North? 

6 A No, six 

7 Q Were you aware ot contacts that others in the 

8 Channell orcjaniza tion micjht have had with Colonel North? 

9 , A Not to my knowJedge. 

10 . Q . Did anyone around the cjfEice ever f»»f(»r to Colonel 

11 North? 

U A No, air. 

13 Q Are you aware of any code names that were used to 

11 leter to Colonel North? 

15 A No. 

16 Q Did you have any contacts with any other White 

17 House or National Security Council personnel duriny your 

18 time? 

19 A No. 

20 Q What about others in the C>iarineJ J oi qani ^at i ori? 
?.l A As Ear as employees? 

22 Q Yes. 



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1 A Well, I had irontacL with the Lumlra isurs , but jiia-i. 

2 on, yoii know, a friendly basis. That was it. 

.3 ' Q r am sorry, I meant what about other peopli> in the 

4 Channel 1 organization having contact with any White House 

5 personnel or National Security Council personnel, to ycjur 

6 knowledge. 

7 A To my knowledge, Spitz spoke to President Reagan 

8 at one time. They were on the phone in the otCii:e near 

9 Angelii's desk. Maybe Ih or 20 Minutes they were on the 

10 phone, and Spitz did not speak at the time. 

11 Q Do you recall when that was? 

12 A It was in our old oEfice. t think that was 

13 probably early spring. ' 

14 Q How did you know that Mr. Channell was speaking 

15 with the president? 

16 A Because I heard people going, shhh. President 

17 Reagan is on the phone. 

18 Q Do you know anything abovit the substance ot that 

19 conversation? 

20 A No, I don't. 

21 Q Did anyone in the organization evei talk about the 

22 conversation after it took place? 




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1 A No, sir. 

2 C! Who, if you can recall, was the person th.it told 

3 yoii that Prosident Reac;.!!) was on the phone? 

4 A I heaid a couple of fundraisers near Angela's 

5 desk. We wei'o all concentrated upstairs at tho time. t 

6 think Jane had whispered to somebody else, and I overhertrd 

7 Jane say "it's Pre.sident Reaijan." 

8 Q How would Jane -- by Jane, we are referring to 

9 Jane Mct,au(jh I inV 

10 A Right. 

11 Q How would Jane have known that the president was 

12 on the phone? 

13 A I really don't know. Maybe she overheard iipitz or 
M maybe Spitz told them that the president was going to call. 

15 X am really not sure. 

16 Q Did you have any contacts with a Richard Miller 

17 - during your time? 

18 A I knew Richard Miller worked for IBC. A couple of 

19 times I had tcj do a littl«* messenger errand to IBC with -in 
^0 envelope. The contents of the envelope are a mystc^ry to me, 
21 but I remember Mr. Miller coming down the steps and i. -iking 
2.7 the envelope I rom the receptionist at IRC. That's it. On 



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I seveial occasions, Mr. Miller would come to our ()fr;ice to 

7 meet with Spitz or Dan, ^ut that's all I know. 
\ Q Aijain, I hate to ket*p doing this, but by Spii.z or 

1 Dan, we are talking about Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad? 

5 \ Right. 

6 Q Did you have ariy contacts with a Frances or Frank 

7 Gomez during your time at NEPL? 

8 A No, sir. ' 

9 Q Do you know if any other people in the Channell 

10 organised contacts with Mr. Gomez? 

11 A Not to my knowledge. That name doesn't ring a ' 

12 bell with me. 

13 y Did you have any contacts with a David Fischer 

14 during your time at NEPL? 

15 A For some reason that name rings a beJl, but T 

16 can't place who he, is with or who he works Cor. I remember 

17 the name. It's probably maybe an invoice that I have seen 

18 with his name on it, <5r whatever. It could be anything. 

19 Q Do you recall whether Mr. Fischer was a consultant 

20 to NEPL during y<3ur time with the organization? 

21 A It couJd be possible. Maybe that's why T 

22 recognize the name. 



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\ Q It you will aive me dboiii. a moment, I u^nt to 

2 consult with my colleagues as to whether I have any luxther 

3 ijuesLions, and then Mr. Fryman may have some tollow-up 
1 questions. 

5 (Recess.) 

6 MR. KAFLAN: If we could go back on the record. 

7 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

fl Q I have a few more questions. May I have the 

9 reporter mark as Deposition exhibit Nii«ber 2 what purports to 

10 be a copy of a bank statement for the National Endowment for 

11 the Preservation of Liberty special account number 2. The 

12 statement is dated May 31, 1986. 

Ij (Deposition Kxhibit 2 identified.) 

11 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

15 Q I am going to show you, Mr. Meo, a copy ot that 

16 statement. As 1 read this statement, down toward the bottom, 

17 • there is a check dated May 7, 1986, in the amount of 

18 $1,250,000. 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Is that the check to which you referred in your 

21 testimony earlier? 

22 A Yes, sir. 



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Q Is Lhis accouni;, by <l«s iijnd t ion and by account 

number, which is in the upper rjght-hiand corner tif the 
exhibit, tha .iccoiinU to which you were rel:errin<j earlier ^s 
the account dedicated to the Toys project? 

A Yes , sir. 

Q Is there any question in your wind about that? 

A No. 

Q The writing in the middle of the page, next to the 
niscipllaneous credit designations, which indicates "E.F. 
Hutton" atid then has some ditto marks underneath. 

A Right. 

Q Is that your handwriting? 

A No, sir. 

Q Do you recognize that handwriting? 

A It would probably be Steve's. 

Q Did you write eveiy check that was written ddi i rig 
your ti«e at NEPL out of the NEPL accounts? 

A Primarily, yes. 

Q Here there any checks written either ot which yciu 
were unaware or written by other people? 

A Usually, every once in a while, we would come in, 
and sometimes checks would be missing from our gerif^ral 



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1 account. I don't remembef any checks beiny inissiny from Uhe 

2 nurabei 2 account uitfi no exp] aridt i on on the stub, and then ii 

3 would be Like pullincj teeth to try to (jet some intorm.i i, lom , 

4 where the check went, what it was Cor, how much it was for. 

5 They will just leave the stub completely blank. 

6 Q Did you keep a running balance of the accc>untV 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q How would you keep a running balance if there were 

9 cliecks missing, the amount of which the payee -- to which you 
10 are unaware? 

)1 A Al 1 of our balances, everything was computed on 

12 t.he computer screen. We had a system called the Lotus I, ?. , 

13 3 accounting package. Usually, if 1 couldn't get the 

14 information to back up a check that would be missin>;, Stcvo 

15 would just rajs^j^ell about it. So we would get the 

16 intcjrmatle 

17 Q Here there times when you did get information 

18 about missing checks? 

19 A Once in a while, yes. Sometimes Angela would need 

20 a check for, maybe, a messenger or something. She w<juld jusi. 

21 go and fill out the check, Dan would sign it and h.ind it over 

22 to somebody, messenger or something like that, and she w(}uLa 




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1 jot down l".he amount so I could enter it in the book. 

2 Q Was there ever a time dt which you did not receive 
■J information about a particular missing check? 

4 A No, and if T didn't get information, I would go tti 

5 Steve and leave that up to him. ■■ " 

6 Q Again, by Steve, you are talking about 

7 Mr. McMahon? 

8 A Mr. McMahon. 

9 Q Did Mr. McMahon always get inPomation about 
10 missing checks? 

U A Usually. 

i9. Q Is there a particular time ox instance that you 

13 can recall th.iL adequate information wasn't received by 

M either you or Mr. McMahon about a particular missing check? 

15 A I wouldn't be able to tell you. 

16 Q Who had physical custody of the checkbooks during 

17 your time at NEPL? '' 

18 A Spitz, Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad, and Mr. Smith -- 

19 Chris -- Cliff Smith, I am sorry, our treasurer. 

20 Q Where were the checkbooks actually kept? 

21 A In our office. 

22 Q Uhen you say our office, to whose office are you 




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1 referring? 

'2' • ■ A Steve's office. Mi. McMdhon ' s office, my desk. 
■ 3 ' Q What kinds of records were kept, financiaL records 

<! were kept in the organization? - 

5 \ Steve kept a lot of tax inf orin.i tion on hand. C 

6 beJieve they were taxes that pertained to Mr. Channel 1. ws' 

7 kept a file on all of owr invoices and businesses that wo 

8 dealt with. And our bank information there at the office. 
9" - . Q Were accounting ledgers kept there? 

10 A Yes. Usually, for the most part, sometimes Steve. 

11 would have them in his -- at his home. 

12 Q Why would Steve keep accounting ledgers at his 

13 home? 

H A I really don't know. Maybe to do .some woik in tfie 

15 ledgers. 

16 Q Was Mr. McMahon employed full-time by NKPL? 

17 A Yes, but he usually didn't come to the office. 

18 When we were in our old office on Capitol Hill, he would come 

19 to the office maybe three or four times a month to stop in 

20 and do some work. After we made the move to Pennsylvania 

21 Avenue, he was in the office every day. '.>o was '.jpit:?. 

22 Q What was Mr. McMahon doing, to your knowledge. 



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1 durinij the time that he wasn't in the Chaniiell offices? 

2 A He had other clients tfiat he prepared taxes for. 

3 Q Did he give up those other clients when the 
\\ organisation made its move to Pennsylvania Avc-nue? 

5 A Not t<3 my kn<5wLf:dge, because afi:er we made the 

6 move to Pennsylvania Avenue, one of his clients came to our 

7 offices to discuss taxes with him. 

8 MR. KAPLAN: X don't have any other questions. 

9 Mr. Fryman may ha>.e some ad<litional questions. I want to 

10 thank you for your patience and your cooperation. You have 

11 been very helpful, and I appreciate it. 

12 KXAMINATION 

13 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

14 Q Mr. Meo, I just have a few questions. First, 

15 however, I want to note for the record that prior to the 

16 deposition I gave you a copy of a subpoena of the House of 

17 Representatives which is dated March 30, 1987, and has been 

18 signed by the Chairman of the House Select Committee, Lee 

19 Hamilton. I explained to you that the seal of the Clerk of 

20 the House has not yet been affixed to the original subpoc-na, 

21 that that is in the process of being done, and you have 

22 agreed to accept the copy that I have presented to you in 



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lieu oC the originai subpoena with the seal; is thdt 

'/ correct? 

J ^ Riijht, yes. 

4 Q Also, just for the record, I want to stater thtit 

4 prior to the ooramencemen t ot the deposition, t gave you a 

6 copy of the RuJes of the House SeJect Committee. 

7 A Yes . 

8 Q And also a copy of the House Resolution Number 12 

9 establishing the House Select Committee. 

10 A Hight. 

11 Q Is that correct? 
I?. A Yes. 

13 Q Now, just d few clarifying questions. You 

14 testified that you were employed by NEPL from January to 

15 September, 1986V 

16 \ Yes, sir. 

17 - Q Then you have produced a letter from Mr . McMahon 

18 dated June, 1986? 

19 A Yes, sir. 

20 Q Which refers to the quality of your work with the 

21 organization and other matters. lietwecn June of 1986 ^ind 

22 September of 1986, were you working on a reguJar basis in t tu* 



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A Yes, sir. 

() You were in the process o£ looking (or another job 

dt that time? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q Had you found another job by September 1986? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q What was that job? 

A I worked tor Coluabia Publi:<hiny Company in 
Coluabia, Maryland, for a short tiae, before going to Agora 
in Baltiaore. 

Q Did you move to Hashingtori in January 19B6? 

A No, :ilr. 

Q Hhen did you aove to Washington? 

A I never moved to Washington. I commuted every dav 
fro« 

Q When was the last occasion that you spoke to an 
eaployee oC the Channell organization? 

A Before I left the organization. 

Q That would be before or — 

A In Septeaber, in Septeaber. 

Q You have not spoken to anyone olse since St:pL«!mbei 




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2 A No, sir . 

3 Q Have you spoken with any attorney for Mr. Channel I 

4 or his organisation? 

h ' A No, sir . ■ 

6 Q Now, you mention you had known Mr. McMahon before 

7 you accepted this job? 

'8 A Yes, sir. ' 

9 Q Had you known Mr. Channel] before you accepted the 

10 job? 

U A No, sir. 

12 Q Now, on the accounting records maintained by NKPL, 

13 you had a checkbook which you maintained and drew checks on? 
' ii A Yes . 

15 ' Q There were stubs in that checkbook; is that 

16 correct? 

17 • A Yes, sir. 

18' " Q As a general matter, you would complete the stubs 

19 when you drew a check? 

20 A Yes, sir. 

21 Q What other record would there be of. a disbur scment 

22 or a check w i tlulrawal? 




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1 \ Well, betore we went lo Lhe compuLer, we kepi, d 

2 spread sheet book of disbursements and check numbers for eacti 
J account that Steve kept In his presence. I worked in the 

4 book, before we weYit over to computer, and when we did gci to 

5 computer, as I mentioned before, we went to the I.otus ;>ys i.t>m 

6 and everything was done on screen. 

7 Q When did you yo to computer? 

8 A Sometime in the old office. I really couldn't 

9 (jive you a date. I would say maybe February we went to 

10 computer. 

11 Q February of 1986? 

12 A. Yes, 

13 Q So the spread sheets were muintairied during your 

14 period of employment for approximately one month? 

15 A Maybe one month, month and a half. Hut Steve had 

16 someone in his employ before I started that kept up these 

17 books, and I don't know who that person was. 

18 Q Now, on the computer system, what was l:ho 

19 mechanism on the computer system for keeping a memory of the 

20 transactions? 

21 A Everything was done on disk, floppy disk. 

22 Q What kind of computers were used? 



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I A Oh, gosh. I hhiiik we used an IBM personal 

7 computer. 

3 Q Who indi ntained rontroJ of! t ^le disks? 

4 h Dan had a bit} part to do with the compiitci 

5 system. I think he was responsible for the ins t til 1 dt i on oT 

6 compu teis . He had a really good knowledge of computers. He 

7 kept disks. 

8 Q He kept the disks? 

9 A Yes. Sometimes Steve would keep the disks also. 

10 He would have copies oE those disks in his home. 

11 y Then for disbursements, I believe you testified 

12 that you would keep the invoice for each disbursement.^ 

13 A Right. 

14 ' Q How would they be maintained? 

15 A We would make a Xerox of those invoices for oiir 

16 files. 

17 . Q Would they be maintained in a chronol oqica 1 

18 fashion? 

19 A Probably by alphabetical order, by company. Those 

20 fil«s are at the office. 

21 Q Now, you say you would make a copy. What would 

22 happen to the original ia 




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I A The ori(;inal would be sent with the check to the; 

? company. For business. 

.3 Q Now, apart from the check stubs ind the copies of- 

4 invoices and the spread sheets for the initial petidd of- 

5 1986, and the computer records maintained on the floppy 

6 disks, what other financial records would have been 

7 maintained in the NEPL organi^iati on? 

8 A I think Steve would compile a list or a summary oE 

9 activity on a monthly basis, tor Spitz. And, to ray 

10 knowledge, that's all I know about any kind of statements cu- 
ll anything else besides the computer and the spread sht^ets. 

12 Q What information would be on this monthly list? 

13 A It would be similar to a bank statement, how much 

14 money wouid go out to businesses and how much money the 

15 organization would receive fiom businesses. If we had 

16 leCunda from businesses, money we were receiving from 

17 contributors, so on and so forth for each account. 

18 Q Would this statement identify the contributor? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Would it identify the recipient of a check diawn 

21 on a NKPL account? 

22 A Usually. Steve would use contributors' lirt namc'S 



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1 on a summary 3he<>L for Spitz. 

2 Q Dci you know how he made up these lists? 

3 Alt was all done on computer. 

4 Q Who made the inputs oL informaticm to the 
•5 computer? 

6 A Steve and myself:. 

7 Q Anyone e Lse? 

8 A Not to my knowledge. 

9 Q Now, was the word "Toys" used in any of these 

10 information inputs into the computer? 

11 A Usually two words were used, "Toys" plus "account 

I 2 numlier 2 . " 

13 Q Were both of those phrases used for each 

II transaction that related to that account? 

15 A Yes, sir. 

16 Q What was the reason for usimj both? 

17 . A So we could identify what monies went into that 

18 account when we loy<jed all of this on a computer screen. 

19 Q Hut why was it necessary to use both phrases to 

20 identify the monies? 

21 A r really don't know. I really don't know. 

p^j Q What other sm-ts ot information were inpui.te<i into 



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I the computer? 

7. A He had cmr payrol] i rif ormett i on on computer. What 

1 else. I tliink, before I left, Steve was trying to work out 

4 something like this Cor the bank statement on our computer. 

5 So lie could go aliead and balance the bcjoks an<i 3<;e i£ the two 

6 figures would match. 

7 Q When you say "something like this," you are 

8 reEeiring to Deposition Exhibit 2? 

9 A Right. We had also, on the screen, a balance 

10 sheet by accounts. tC checks were written on a day, they 

11 would be entered in on the screen and the screen would 

12 automatically tally a bank balance C(n- us, an<l the two 

13 figures would have to match with the book. If there was an 

14 error, we would have to go back and find the error. It was 

15 just basic bookkeeping procedure. 

16 Q In the check stubs for checks that were drawn, you 

17 " would write a purpose for the check? 

18 A Right. 

19 Q Would that purpose be transferred also to the 

20 computer? 

?. 1 A Usually, yes. 

7:X Q I believe you said there were copies uf the 



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computer disks? 

A Yes. Steve had (copies in his possession. He kept 
copies at woi-k. He had a copy at work and a copy at his 
home. Hfi had his own computer system at fiome also. 

Q What was the total number of copies of i he disks, 
as you understand it? 

A I think it was only one copy that I have seen. 

Q So the original disk plus one copy? 

A Yes . '■ 

Q Is it your understanding that the copy was at 
Mr. McMahon's home? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And the original was maintained in the office? 

A Right. 

Q Who maintained custody of that again? 

A It was just in our office, in a disk box. 
MR. FRYMAN: I have no further questions, 
Mr. Meo. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. 



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1 (Whereupon, at 10:25 i.m., the deposition wa:: 

2 cone 1 udfid . ) 
3 
4 
5 PHILIP HOWAHD MEO 



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I, WENDY S. COX j_ the Officer before 

whom the foregoing deposition was taJcen, do hereby 
certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the 
testimony of said witness was taJcen in shorthand and 
thereafter reduced to typevrriting by me or under my 
direction; that said deposition is a true record of the 
testimony given by said witness; that Z am neither counsel 
for, related to, nor employed by juy of the parties to 
the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, 
that Z am not a relative ot^ employee of any attorney or 
counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 



53 



Notary Publi^ in and for the 
DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA 



My Conmiission Expires 

November 14, 19 87 



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NAnE= MIR035000 ?7MAI ■A#%l«"aF«*^ PAGE 1 



ONCLASSIFIED 



OEPOSIIION or ARTHUR J. nXLLER 



Wedn«sday> FAbruazy (4, 1987 






Housa of Rapzasantativas , 
Salact Coanittaa to Invastigata 
Covazt Arns Transactions with 
Iian> 
Washington. O.C. 

Tha salact comnlttaa aat, pursuant to call, at 9>15 a.m. 
in Room 2255. Rayburn Housa Ofiica Building. H. Hail 
Egglaston. Spacial Daputy Chiai Counsal to tha Salect 
Committaa. prasiding. Also pxasant: Gaorga Van Clave, 
HHj^l Republican Chief Counsal and Joseph Baio, Counsel for 
Arthur J. Millar. 




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NAME: 

18 

19 

20 

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2 3 

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25 

26 

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HIR035000 



ONCLASSlfJED 



Hhaiaupon, 

ARTHUR J. MILLER, 
having bean callad iot aKanination by counsel for the select 
coranittea, and having been previously duly suoin by a Notary 
Public, uas eMaminad and continued to testify as follows: 
EXAHINATIOM BY COUNSEL FOR THE SELECT COHHITTEE: 
BY HR. EGGLESTON' 
2 ny nane is Neil Eggleston. I am Deputy Chief 
Counsel of the House Select Comnittee to investigate covert 
arns transactions with Iran. To my left is Mr. Georg* Van 
Cleve, who is Chief Counsel-- 

HR. VAN CLEVE: Deputy Republican Counsel. 
riR. EGGLESTOK: Deputy Republican Counsel. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
fi Mr. Miller, also present with you hare today is 
your attorney, Joe Balo, with the firm of Hilkie Farr £ 
Gallagher; is that correct? 
A Yes. 

e As you may hava been advised, the House Select 
Committee Is Investigating various transactions Involving 
the sales of arms to Iran and also as part of Its mandate-- 
its mandate Is muoh larger t han this. It includes funding of 
the contras li^^^^^^^^^^Hand that Is the purpose of this 
Investigation. 



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PAGE 



You are appearing today pursuant to a subpoena 
duces tecun issued by that committee. Ue appreciate your 
attendance here today. 

Let me just tell you at the outset, before X begin 
to ask you questions, i£ there are any questions that for 
any reason ycu don't understand or don't make sense to you, 
or my terminology is imprecise, which it may well be in this 
area, and as a result of imprecise terminology you don't 
understand my question, just ask me to rephrase it and I 
will glad to do it. If at any time you need to consult with 
counsel before you answer a question you axe welcome ta do 
that as well. 

Let me just tell you for your information generally 
how X am going to proceed with the deposition. I am going 
to ask you a few brief questions about yourself and your 
involvement with the corporation Triad America. 

X will ask you some questions about Triad America 
and its various companies. And you have produced pursuant to 
the subpoena various documents. I intend to ask you various 
questions about the documents. X have been through the 
docunants , Hr . Van Cleve and X both have gone through the 
docunants that you have produced, and selected various 
documents we will ask you about specifically. 

X think what X will do, although this is a little 
different from my usual pxactica, I think at tha end of the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



465 



NAME 
68 
69 
70 
7 1 
72 
73 
7M 
75 
76 
11 
78 
79 
80 
81 
82 
83 
8« 
85 
86 
87 
88 
89 
90 
91 
92 



HIR035000 



ONCIASSIRED 



PAGE 



deposition I am going to take you through the deposition and 
ask you about the docunent production to just insure you or 
the corporation have complied with the subpoena duces tecum. 
Do you understand? 

A No. 

S nr . Miller, hou old are you? I usually start uith 
easy ones. 

A I am either U1 or ((2. I think I am Ml. 

S Do you remember your date of birth? 

A Yes, I do. 

a What is your date of birth? 

A 

S 

A 

e 

A 

S 



Where were you born? 
In New York. 
New York City? 
Queens . 

li you would just tell me very briefly about your 
educational background, I would appreciate it. 

A I have got a B.A.. Bachelor of Arts, from the 
University of Utah and I got a Raster's Degree and H.B.A. 
from the University of Virginia. 

fi Uhere did you go to high school? 
A Bountiful, Utah. 

Q You were born in Queens and there was a time you 
and your family moved to Utah? 



bNCLASSiFSED 



466 



KAME ■ 

93 

9U 

95 

96 

97 

98 

99 

100 

10 1 

102 

103 

104 

105 

106 

107 

108 

109 

1 10 

1 1 1 

1 12 

1 13 

1 14 

1 15 

1 16 

1 17 



HIR03S000 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 



[iNCLASS!F3ED 



Yes 



Hou old were you? 

That uas in 19)?7, and I was 12 years old. 



Where do you currently live, in Salt Lake City? 

No . 

Where do you live now? 

Bountiful, Utah. 

How iar is Bountiful from Salt Lake City? 

Approximately 10 miles north. 

Where are you currently employed? 

J. am currently employed in a company called nij.ler 
and Clark? 

2 What does that company do? 

A It is a consulting company. It does accounting 
work and other consulting. 

2 Is the Killer in Killer and Clark you? 
A Yes . 

2 Who is Clark? 
A Steven K. Clark. 

2 How long have you been employed by Killer and 
Clark? 

A Eight months . 

2 Prior to the time that you were employed by Killer 
and Clark/ whwere were you employed? 
A Triad Kanagement Company. 



UNCLASSIFID 



467 



NAHE 
118 

1 19 

120 

121 

122 

123 

12M 

125 

126 

127 

128 

129 

130 

131 

132 

133 

13X 

135 

136 

137 

138 

139 

1(40 

mi 

1<42 



HIR03S000 



WUSS/REO 



PAGE 6 

2 Where is Triad Management Company located? 
A Salt Lake City. 

e Can you give us the address of Triad Management 
Company ? 

A Yes. It is Suite 350, the number 5, Triad Center, 
Salt Lake City, Utah, SMISO. 

e Just so I don't forget, could you give me the 
address of Miller and Clark? 

A It is Suite 390, 5 Triad Center. Salt Lake City, 
Utah 8(4 180. 

2 Uou long were you employed by Triad Management? 

A Approximately six years. 

e Have you ever been employed by Triad American 
Corporation? 

A Ko. 

e What does Triad Management Company do? 

A It provides management services. 

e At the time you were employed by it, to whom or to 
what organization did it provide management services? 

A To Triad American Corporation and its subsidiaries 

e Here you an officer of Triad American Corporation? 

A Yes. 

fi What years were you an officer of Triad American 
Corporation? 

A 1983 through 1986. 



UNCLRSSSfiO 



468 



143 
144 
145 
146 
147 
148 
149 
150 
151 
152 
153 
154 
155 
156 
157 
158 
159 
160 
161 
162 
163 
164 
165 
166 
167 



HIR035000 



unclassified) 



PAGE 



2 Did you tecaive a salary from Tiiad American 
Corporation? . ' • 

A Ho . ■ - 

2 What was your position from *83 to '86 with Triad 
American Corporation? 

A I uas the senior vice president and chiei finance 
officer. I uas also the secretary. 

2 You were not employed by Triad American, you ueie 
employed by Triad Management Corporation. 

A That is correct. 

2 Kho were the other employees of Triad Management 
Corporation? 

Well, let me ask it this way. How many employees 
were there of Triad Management Corporation? 

A Over the years there's probably been 200 to 300. 

2 Did Triad Management Corporation essentially 
comprise the top management of Triad American Corporation? 

A Not necessarily. 

2 I don't mean to be obtuse. I just want to Know your 
relationship to the Triad American Corporation, and whether 
the other offices of the Triad American Corporation were 
also employed-- 

A Some of them were. 

2 Some of them were and some of them weren't. 

A That is correct. 



ONCLflSSrED 



469 



HAKE 
168 
169 
170 
171 
172 
173 
17U 
175 
176 
177 
178 
179 
180 
181 
182 
183 
ISO 
185 
186 
187 
188 
189 
190 
191 
192 



HIR03SOOO 



UNCLASSSF:tD 



PAGE 



8 



2 Prior to the tima you wera employed by or an 
officer with triad American Corporation, where were you 
employed ? 

A I was with a company called Hycoff Company, Inc. 

2 What was Uycoff's business? 

A It is a regional trucking firm. 

Q Uhere was it located? 

A In Salt Lake City. 

Q Did you work at Uycoff Company with any of the 
people with whom you also worked at Triad American 
Corporation? 

A I think one other fellow worked for me at Triad 
American, excuse me. Triad nanagement Corporation, who also 
worked at Hycoff. 

2 Was Uycoff purchased by Triad? 

A Ko. 

2 Did Uycoff — when I say Triad, Triad Management or 
Triad Amerioan Corporation, was Uycoff an affiliated company 
in any way with the Triad companies? 

A no . 

e Uhat years were you with Uycoff? 

A 1979 through 1981 . 

fi Uhere were you between 1981 and 1983? 

A I was with Triad Management Corporation. 

2 Uhat were your duties there when you were with 



ONCLASSIFJED 



470 



NAME : 
193 
191 
195 
' 1-9% 
197 
198 
199 
200 
2'Vl 
202 
203 
20U 
205 
206 
207 
208 
209 
210 
21 1 
212 
213 
21U 
215 

ii6 



HIR03SOOO 



yi^CLASSlF^Ed 



PAGE 



Triad Management Corporation? 

A I was vice president and the chief financial 
officer . 

2 Of Triad Management Corporation? 

A Yes. 

C And from 1983 to 1986. what was your position with 
Triad Management Corporation? 

A I was vice president and chief financial officer. 

2 Did your duties change from after you became a 
senior officer of the Triad American Corporation? 

A No. 

8 I want to ask you some questions about the Triad 
American Corporation, and I am going to direct my 
questioning to the time primarily between 1983 and 1986, the 
years you were an officer of Triad American Corporation. 

Do you know who the shareholders in the Triad 
American Corporation were? 

A Yes. 

Q Uho were they? 

A Triad International Corporation and Elk 
International Corporation. 

2 Do you know the percent ownership by each? 

A Yes. 

2 What was the percentage? 

A Triad International Corporation owns 80 percent of 



liNCLASSIFEED 



471 



NAHE : 
218 
2 19 
220 
22 1 
222 
223 
224 
225 
226 
227 
228 
229 
230 
231 
232 
233 
23U 
235 
236 
237 
238 
239 
2(40 

2m 

2(42 



HIR035000 ;^'!VP-M-^-"^CE?'ii»'5 2 PAGE 10 
Triad American Corporation and Elk international Corporation 
owns 20 percent o± Triad American Corporation. 

2 What IS the principle business of the Triad 
American Corporation, or what was it from 1983 to 1986? 

A Well, it had two major segments; one was the 

m 

ownership and development of real estate properties and the 
other was the ownership and operation of an oil refinery m 
Southern California. 

e The oil refinery in Southsxn California was that 
owned by a separate corporation or was it owned by Triad 
American Corporation? 

A Yes, a separata corporation. 

2 Do you remaabet the nana of that? 

A Yes. 

2 Uhat is that? 

A Edgington Oil Company, Inc. 

e Did Triad American Corporation own 100 percent of 
the stock in tha Edgington Oil Company? 

A Mo. 

fi Do you know tha percent ounarshlp, do you know who 
tha shaxaholdars of Edgington Oil wara? 

A Yas. 

n 

S Mho waza thay>< 

A Maw £dga ownad 100 parcant of Edgington Oil 
Corporation. 



liNCLASSIFSED 



472 



NAHE: 
2U3 

245 
2U6 
247 
248 
249 
250 
251 
252 
253 
254 
255 
256 
257 
258 
259 
260 
261 
262 
263 
264 
265 
266 
267 



HIR03S000 



UNCLASSSFSED . 



AGE 1 1 



2 And Mew Edge was a corporation? 

A Yes . 

8 Do you know who the shareholders of New Edge were? 

A Yes . 

S Uho uexft thay? 

A Triad International Corporation owned 100 percent 
of Hew Edge. 

2 Do you Know who owned tha shares of Triad 
International Corporation? 

A Yes. 

A Hho was that? 

A Triad American Corporation. 

2 I didn't take a completa note here. Elk referred 
to — 

A Elk International Corporation. 

2 Do you know who owned stock of the Elk 
Intarnational Corporation? 

A No. 

2 You do not know? 

A Ko. 

2 Do you know who tha chiaf axacutiva officer was of 
tha Elk Corporation? 

A Ko. 

2 Do you know who any of tha offiears ware? 

A Ko. 



t; 



473 



NAHE 
268 
269 
270 
271 
272 
273 
274 
275 
276 
277 
278 
279 
280 
281 
282 
283 
28M 
285 
286 
287 
288 
289 
290 
291 
292 



HIR035000 



UNCLASS!F5£d 



PAGE 12 



2 Do you Know who any of the directors were? 

* Ho. 

2 Do you know where Elk International Corporation is 
located? 

A No. 

2 Did you have any dealings at all with the Elk 
International Corporation? 

A Nothing directly. 

2 Do you know the principle place oi the Elk 
International Corporation? 

A No. 

2 Do you know where it maintained its bank accounts? 

A No. 

2 You responded to iiy question whether you had any 
dealings with then, which is an adnittedly ambiguous 
question, you responded indirectly. Did you have indirect 
dealings with them? 

A Yes. 

2 Hhat kind of dealings? 

A I would be notified through various members of the 
board of directors, namely Adnan Khashoggi and Tarig Kadri 
as to any dealings with Elk International; in other words, 
any transactions which had taken place. 

2 So your knowledge of Elk International Corporation 
came from conversations with onaTof those two individuals? 



KNCLASSIF-ED 



474 



JiNCLflSSIFiED 



HAHE: HIR03SO00 " ■^■T p^gj. ,3 



293 
294 
295 
296 
297 
298 
299 
300 
301 
302 
303 
30U 
305 
306 
307 
308 
309 
310 
31 1 
312 
313 
314 
315 
316 
317 



A That is right. 

2 You reietred to the person, Mr. Khashoggi, you had 
dealings uith in this case. 

A That is right. 

2 You have also told us that the 80 percent 
stockholder was an organization called the Triad 
International Corporation; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

2 Do you know where its principle plaea of business 
is? Do you know uhere that corporation is located? 

A No. 

2 Do you know who the shareholders of Triad 
International Corporation are? 

A Ko. 

2 Do you know who the chief executive officer of 
Triad International Corporation are? 

A Ho. 

2 Do you know any of the senior officers of Triad 
International Corporation? 

A No. 

2 Do you know any of the directors of Triad 
International Corporation? 

A No. 

2 Do you know — when I say know, I an asking have you 
ever met a man by thtt nane of Adnan Khashoggi? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



475 



NAHE 
318 
319 
320 
321 
322 
323 
32U 
325 
326 
327 
328 
329 
330 
331 
332 
333 
33i« 
335 
336 
337 
338 
339 
3<tO 
3M1 
3U2 



HIR035000 



bNCLASSlF:ED 



PAGE m 



Yes. 



2 Hou many tiatts hava you nat Adnan Khashoggi? 

A I think threa tines. 

Q Do you recall each of the three times you net him? 

A Not specifically. 

8 Do you know generally uhere those three meetings 
took place, the three tines you net hin? 

A Yes. 

2 Uhere did they take place? 

A Two of then took place in Salt Lake City and one 
of then took place in New York. 



S 
A 

2 

place? 

A 

2 
York? 

A 
2 

A 
8 
A 
8 



Where did they take place in Salt Lake City? 

I don't renenber specifically. 

do you reneaber which years each of the three took 



Do you renenber where the neeting took place in New 

Yes. 

Hhare was that? 

That was in the office of Robert Shaheen. 

Hhere is that located, if you recall? 

I think the Olynpic Towers in New York City. 

Does Hr. Khashoggi own a residence in Olynpic 



Towers, to your knowledge? 



mLASSIF:ED 



476 



NANE: 
3U3 
3UU 
345 
3U6 
347 
348 
349 
350 
351 
352 
353 
354 
355 
356 
357 
358 
359 
360 
361 
362 
363 
364 
365 
366 
367 



HIR035000 



ONCLASSIFiED 



PAGE 15 



A I don't know. 

2 To the best oi your knowledge, it was Hr . Shaheen's 
office, not Mr. Khashoggi's resident? 

A That is correct. 

S When was that meeting? 

A That was probably about April of 1986. April 1986. 

S When were the two previous meetings? 

A I don't know. You already asked me that. 

2 You don't recall? 

A It was sometime probably in 1982, 1983 or 1984, 
somewhere around there. 

2 Do you remember the purpose of the meting in 1986, 
in or about April 1986. 

a. The purpose of my meeting with Adnan was to shake 
hands and say hello. 

2 who else was there? 

A At that meeting? 

2 Yes. 

A Sob Shahaen was there and Don Fraser was there and 
Steven Clark was there. 

2 What was your reason for being there? 

2 We were there to discuss the disengagement of 
Vertex and Don Fraser and the New York commercial people. 

2 I will return to that as we get back to the 
documents . 



0NCLASSIF5ED 



477 



NAME 
368 
369 
370 
371 
372 
373 
37i» 
37S 
376 
377 
378 
379 
380 
381 
382 
383 
38X 
385 
386 
387 
388 
389 
390 
391 
392 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 16 



Do you KnoH the last tima fit. Khashoggi was m the 
United States? 

A KO. 

C Do you knoH who Hr . Khashoggi is — when I am 
referring to Hr . Khashoggi, Adnan Khashoggi--do you know who 
his principal aid is? 

A Mo. 

fi You mentioned to us Robert Shaheen. Who is Robert 
Shaheen? 

A He is an individual that works with Mr. Khashoggi. 

fi Do you KnoM who enploys him? 

A No. 

e Does he have a title with Hr . Khashoggi? 

A I don't know. 

e Does he have offices, to your knowledge, anywhere 
other than Kew York? 

A I don't know. 

e How long have you known Hr . Khashoggi? 

A I think I have met him two or three times probably. 
beginning 1982. 

S The other two occasions where you met Mr. Adnan 
Khashoggi. was Hx . Shaheen present to the best of your 
xeoollection? 

A I think so. 

fi Do you think each time you met Hr . Adndn Khashoggi, 



bNCLASSgf'ED 



478 



HAHE : 
393 
394 
395 
396 
397 
398 
399 
(400 
140 1 
1402 
1403 
UOU 
405 
406 
407 
408 
409 
410 
41 1 
412 
413 
414 
415 
416 
417 



HIR035000 



yNCLASSlPiED 



PAGE 17 



Ml. Shaheen had been pzesentl 



A Probably. 

2 Do you knou how often during 1985 and 1986 Mr. 
Khashoggi came to the Triad American offices in Salt Lake 
City? 

A In 1985 and 1986? 

S Yes. 

A I don't think he came at all. 

Q You don't think he was ever in the Triad American 
offices in Salt Lake City? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Do you know who represented Mr. Khashoggi when he 
was not in the United States, who handled his business? 

A Ho, I don't. 

2 Do you know if Mr. Khashoggi received a salary from 
the Triad American Corporation? 

A Yes. 

2 Did he? 

A Ho. 

2 Do you know whether he received any money directly 
from the Triad Anerican Cozpoxatlon? 

A Ho. 

I-' 

2 You don't know? 

A "I don't know. I say I don't know. I don't think he 
did. 



lSlieiftSSlRE3 



479 



NAME: 
(«18 
419 
420 
M21 
422 
X23 
U2t* 
>425 
>(26 
K27 
428 
U29 
■130 
i|31 
U32 
•433 
i(3il 
■435 
>I36 
•137 
438 
439 
440 
441 
442 



HIR035000 



e But you have no knowledge? 



PAGE 18 



A No knowledge, no. 

2 Do you know a man by the name of Boyd Fitma? 

A No. 

fi Hhen you say no, have you ever met him? 

A No. 

e I am not sure, I suspect you might have read his 
name in the paper recently. I want to know whether you have 
met him? 

A No. 

2 Although you didn't know him, do you know whether 
he was employed by Triad American Corporation/ 

A He was not. 

2 Do you know whether he did legal work for the Triad 
American Corporation? 

A I don't believe he did. 

A Do you know whether he did legal work ior Triad 

O 
International Corporation' 

A I have no idea. 

2 Simply, I take it you would have no idea whether he 

does legal work for Elk International Corporation? 

A Ko. 

2 Do you know a man whose nickname is Tiny, but I 

i 
guess his name was Rolin Rowland? " 

A Ko. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



480 



NAME: 

U143 

nns 

>4U6 
4147 
14148 
M149 
1450 
U51 
1*52 
453 
(454 

uss 

456 
457 
458 
459 
U60 
461 
462 
463 
464 
465 
466 
467 



HIR03SOOO 
2 



.JNf)JUSSJFi£D. 



PAGE 19 
e before? 



A I think I have read it in some newspaper accounts. 

2 During the course of your employment by the Triad 
Management Corporation and your work for Triad Management 
Corporation, you did not come across his name? 

A I did not. 

2 Mr. Miller/ pursuant to the subpoena you produced 
to the committee, and we appreciate it, three red whale 
folders of documents. As I say, there are three folders. 
They contain documents, as I recall, beginning--they are all 
Bates stamped, and the documents are stamped from 1 to 
1,458. Is that correct? 

MR. BAIO: Mr. Miller didn't do the stamping or 
indeed even see them after they were stamped. 

MR. EGGLESTOH: Mould Mr. Miller recognize these as 
the documents ha saw before? 

MR. BAIO: Perhaps. Hhy don't you show him. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

2 I would like to show you the docuaents--well , let me 
just ask you> ware you involved in the collection of these 
doeunents or rasponse to the subpoena issued by the House 
Subcomnittee? 

A Yes. , 

2 Have you looked at these documents; have you looked 
at the documents you produced in response to that subpoena? 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



m 



NAME 

U68 
U69 
1*70 
U7 1 
"472 
473 
U7U 
U75 
1*76 
477 
478 
479 
480 
481 
482 
483 
484 
485 
486 



HIR035000 



UNOLASSIF'£D> 



GE 20 



A Yes. 

2 If I show you the stack, would you be able to 
identify them as the documents produced by the subpoena? 
A Yes. 

2 I intend to have you identify them and mark them 
all as a stack. .; ' 

HR. BAIO: That is quick. 
THE WITNESS: That is the stack. 
HR. EGGLESTON: I will have then marked as a.$ 
single exhibit and during the course of asking you about 
then. I will refer to the Bates stanp number, which will be 
a lot nore efficient than having the reporter mark each 
single document, which would result in us being here 
forever . 

I would like to take a look at these docunents and 
verify that these are the docunents that you produced. I 
have selected out some. 

MR. BAIQ: Off the record a second. 
(Discussion ofi tha record.] 



482 



NAME: 

487 
1488 
■489 
U90 
49 1 
492 
493 
494 
495 
496 
497 
498 
499 
500 
501 
502 
503 
504 
505 
506 
507 
508 
509 
510 
511 



KIR035000 



SJF 



^i%.W J-ii'S PAGE 2 1 



RPTS DOTSOK - 

DCKH STABKER ^ 

BY HR. EGGLESTON: K 

B Hr . Hillez, have you had an opportunity to review 

the records that I placed in front of you? 
A Yes. 
2 Are these the documents you produced in response to 

the subpoena issued in Triad American Corporation? 

A Yes . ,,..'- i- - . t. -.'- .■^L . --. ^ '■ ■' 

S At the conclusion of this deposition I uill ask the 
reporter to mark these AM- 1 . which at that time will be 
three red whale files of documents. At this time I would 
like to ask you about a series of documents / and, as I 
indicated, I am going to refer to each document probably 
first by its first page number, that is the Bates stamp, and 
the subsequent Bates number as well for ease. 

I am first going to show--and perhaps it might be 
convenient if you could put them in front of him and I could 
have these in front of me--number 009, number 9. 

Z take it this document is a corporation report 
filed with the State of Utah. 

A Okay. 



UNCLASSSFSED 



483 



NAME: 

512 
513 

sm 

515 
516 
517 
518 
519 
520 
521 
522 
523 
52U 
525 
526 
527 
528 
529 
530 
531 
532 
533 
5314 
535 
536 



UNCLASSfF^ED 



HIR03SOOO -• PAGE 22 

2 Is that cotract? 

A Yes. it appears to be. 

& It is for the corporation Triad American 
Corporation; is that right? 

A Yes, it is. 

2 The name under that uas Emanuel A. Floor? 

A Yes . ^ 

2 Uhat uas his position at Triad American? 

A He uas one of the executive vice presidents. 

2 Do you Knou hou long he had been uith Triad 
American .Corporation? 

A Yes . ; 

2 Hou long? 

A Since 197i4. 

2 This document is dated April IK 198(4. At that 
time uere you an officer of the corporation? 

A Let me check the list. I uas not an officer at 
that time . 

2 You uere at that time employed by Triad Management 
Corporation? 

A That is right. 

2 Earlier you had testified you became an officer you 
thought in about 1983. 

A Yes. It looks like it uas subsequent to 19^3. yes. 

2 Did your duties change after you became an officer 



ynCLASSIF'ED 



484 



NAHE' 

S37 
538 
539 
SUO 
541 
5<42 
543 
SUM 
545 
546 
547 
548 
549 
550 
551 
552 
553 
554 
555 
556 
557 
558 
559 
560 
561 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



PAGE 23 



of Triad Anarican Corporation? 

A Ho . ' ■ V ■■ 

2 X want to ask you about some individuals here. 
First, in tha bottoit lait there is an authorized oiiicer who 
is indicated as the Treasurer. Do you know whose signature 
that is? 

A Yes. 

2 Whose is that? 

A Dick Shanaaan. 

e Is he still with Triad Anerican? 

A Ho. 

fi Is Mr. Floor still with Triad? 

A No. 

2 I was going to gat this later, but what is the 
current legal status oi Triad American? Is it in 
bankruptcy? 

A Yas. 

2 Uhan did it — 

m. BAIOs Patltion for rallai. 
BY ni. EGGLESTON: 

2 Yas. Hhan did tha petition for raliai? 

A January 27. 1987. 

2 Hava you. in connection with that, given any other 
daposition? Hava you baan deposed in connection with that? 

A In connection with what? 



UNCLASSIF'ED 



485 



NANE 
562 
563 
56U 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
57 1 
572 
573 
5714 
575 
576 
577 
578 
579 
580 
581 
582 
583 
58U 
585 
586 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 2H 



S In connection with th« bankruptcy? 

A No. 

2 Have you given any depositions in the last six 
months ? 

A Yes. 

2 In connection with your position with Triad 
American Corporation? 

A Yes. 

2 Who took your deposition? 

A I don't know the individual's name. It was in 
connection uith some lawsuits that had been iiled against 
Triad American by creditors. 

2 Have you been contacted by the FBI? 

A Ho. 

2 Have you been contacted by any representatives of 
the Senate Select Committee? 

A I don't believe so. 

S Finally, have you been contacted by any 
investigator or representative oi the independent counsel's 
oiiice? 

A Hho is that? 

MR. BAIO: X£ you don't know who he is, you 
probably have not been contacted. 

KR. EGGLESTON: It probably would have been 
included in the FBI. 



UNClASSiF.'ED 



486 



NAME: 
S87 
588 
589 
590 
591 
592 
593 
594 
595 
596 
597 
598 
599 
600 
601 
602 
603 
60t4 
605 
606 
607 
608 
609 
610 
61 1 



HIR035000 



UNCLASS!r:ZD 



PAGE 25 



nR. BAIO- Ha know oi no contact. 
BY HR. EGGLESTOK: 

2 Page 10 refers to a number of different individuals 
who are the oiiicezs of the corporation as of this time, and 
I would like to ask you about each of these individuals . 
Essan Khashoggi is listed as the president and chief 
executive officer. Do you know his relationship with Adn^n 
Khashoggi? 

A Yes. 

fi Hhat is his relationship? 

A He is a brother. 

2 Do you know how long he had been president and 
chief executive officer of Triad American? , 

A Ko. 

Q The address listed for him on this document is an 
address in Geneva. I won't read it because it is reflected 
on the front of the document. Did he also have a residence 
in Utah? 

A No. 

S Did you have regular dealings with him? 

A Hhat do you mean regular? 

e I am sorry. Bad question. Let me ask it this way: 
Hhat percentage of his time did he spend at Triad 
American's office in Salt Lake City? 

A A very small percentage. 



UNCLASSlFiS 



487 



ONCLASSinED 



PAGE 26 



NAME: HIR035000 

612 2 Let ne try to quantify that in some way. 

613 A Once every two or three months. . 

or 

6 114 2 He would be there for what length o£ time? 

61S J Maybe a day, maybe half a day. 

6 16 2 And the second person listed is Emanuel Floor, who 

6 17 is listed as the executive vice president. Is the address 

6 18 here his home address? 

6 19 A Mo. 

620 2 This is the address oi Triad American Corporation? 

62 1 A It was the address of their corporate offices. 

622 2 At that time? 

623 A At that time. 

62M 2 Was he essentially operating as the chief executive 

625 officer of the corporation? 

626 Let me ask it colloquially. Did he run the 

627 corporation in the absence of Adnan Khashoggi? 

628 A Let me cut through a lot of this crap here. Triad 

629 American Corporation doesn't have any operations,, it is a 

630 holding company. To say somebody was running it or not 

631 running it. I mean there were no operations. Nannie Floor, 

632 Emanuel A. Floor, was in charge of the real estate 

633 operations and that is what he ran as a subsidiary of Triad 
63X American Corporation. 

635 2 All right. Thank you. so Triad American 

636 Corporation essentially owned the other corporations? 



UNCLASSIEEO 



488 



KAHE: 
637 
638 

639 
6140 

6m 

61(2 
6X3 
6(4 4 
6145 
6(46 
6U7 
6>48 
6149 
650 
651 
652 
653 
6514 
655 
656 
657 
658 
659 
660 
661 



HIR035000 



[jNi)LA3S!r?.D 



PAGE 27 



A That is right. 

2 Thft raal estate corporation, the real estate 
operations, uas that a number oi different corporations? 

A It uas managed from one corporation. Triad Property 
Corporation, and then that in itself uas a holding company 
for other subsidies. 

C I think later I have--let ma finish going through 
these. I have a list that will make that question easy and 
maybe quick. Hr . Evans, Samuel M. Evans, is listed as the 
secretary of the corporation. What the percentage of his 
time did he spend in Salt Lake City? 

A A very small percentage . 

2 Did you know Mr. Evans? , 

A I met him a feu times. 

fi Do you know the corporation IHS Limited? 

A Ko. 

2 Do you know what IMS stands for? 

A I have no idea. < 

2 Do you know what he did for IMS Limited? 

A I have no idea. 

2 He is under indictment, is he not? 

A I have seen his name in particular. I don't know 
the details of this. ' ' ' ' . 

2 The person listed as Treasurer is Robert Shananan. 
I take it his offices were also at the principal location of 



^^GLASS!F"E^ 



NAME ■■ 
662 
663 
66(t 
665 
666 
667 
668 
669 
670 
671 
672 
673 
674 
675 
676 
677 
678 
679 
680 

681 

1 : f - 

682 
683 
68>« 
685 
686 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIFID 



PAGE 28 



Triad American? 



A It is Richard Shanaman. 

e Let ne just asK you to turn to page 11, which lists 
the directors oi the corporation, and it indicates--let rae 
ask you about Raymond Jallou. Do you know what his 
connection was with Triad American Corporation? 

A He was a director. 

2 Was he also an officer or director of any of the 
subsidiary corporations? 

A Hot to my Knowledge. 

S How about Tariq Kadri? 

A Yes . 

e rtr . Kadri, was he related to Adnan Khashoggi? 

A Related? 

2 Yes. 

A I have no idea. 

e And did he have any position with Triad American 
other than as a director? 

A At this point in time? 
,. e Mo, as of 198>4. 

A That's what I meant. I don't think so. I don't 
think he did. 

fi Was he Involved with one oi the subsidiary 
companies? 

A I guess he would be. In 1984, he would be involved 



UNCUSSIFJEO 



490 



MAHE: 
687 
688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
6914 
695 
696 
697 
698 
699 
700 
701 
702 
703 
70U 
70S 
706 
707 
708 
709 
710 
71 1 



l^NCLASSIF'Ed 



HIR035000 kdlMi:! ll'^'^fJy* W'kl PAGE 29 
with the energy companies, and uas probably an officer in 
one or several of those. 

2 The energy companies, are they primarily the 
refinery? 

A The refinery in Southern California, yes. 

2 Hhen you say at this time, did there come a time he 
was no longer affiliated uith those companies? 

A Yes. And he is no longer affiliated uith them nouf. 

2 Do you knou when he ceased being affiliated? 

A Yes . 

2 Uhen was that? 

A December 31, 1986. 

2 I am now directing your attention to page 7, which 
is the report dated February 25, 1985. I take it the 
signature on here is yours. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

2 This is the first time that you are reflected as 
the senior vice president and secretary of the corporation? 

A Yes. 

2 Let B« just ask you under the officers if you could 
just identify for me which ones principally worked out of 
tha offices of Triad American Corporation? 

A In Salt Lake? 

2 In Salt Lake. 

A Hell, let's see. Emanuel A. Floor. Arthur J. 



yNGLASS!?"£3 



491 



KAME: 
712 
713 

7114 

71S 
716 
717 
718 
719 
720 
721 
722 
723 
724 
725 
726 
727 
728 
729 
730 
731 
732 
733 
73M 
735 
736 



HIRO3SOO0 



l^NCLAS! 






PAGE 



Millet, Michael G. Snart, Mark G. Lindfotd, Lawrence H. 
Taylor, Henry 0. Whiteside, FranX E. Moss, Jr., Steven K. 
Horton, Dee A. Hickin, Steven K. Klack, Patricia E. Davis, 
and Shannon L. Uahl . 

e Out of those, you omitted Mr. Kadri's name. Where 
was his principal office, if you know? 

A I think Santa Barbara. 

e Do you know what business ha was in? 

A Outside of Triad American? 

C Yes. 

A Ko, I don't. 

e Mark Nugard, I think you mentioned. Where was his? 

A He is the president of Edgington Oil Company and 
has a residence in Southern California. 

C The rest, as I recall, having gone through it, are 
people whose principal offices were in Salt Lake City? 

A I omitted Essam Khashoggl, too. 

fi Yes. You and I talked early yesterday about 
Khashoggl . 

Let me direct your attention to document number t . 
I take it there is no difference between the documents 
listed--! am sorry, document number <* is the same document 
dated August 1 1 , 1986 . 

A What was the question? 

S X aa just asking you to identify document number U 



UNCLASSIFJEO 



492 



NAME: 
737 
738 
739 
740 
71*1 
7142 
7U3 
71414 
745 
7U6 
7U7 
7(48 
749 
750 
751 
752 
753 
7S<4 
755 
756 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 



HIR03S000 



UNCLASSy7:LD 



PAGE 31 



as the corpotate repoit iox tha Triad Anarican Coipotation 
datsd August 11, 1986. • • vj- ... 

A That is correct. '•'''' 

Q It is signed this time by Mr. Emanuel Floor: is 
that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q Is there a reason he became the new registered 
agent at the first of the year? 

A As opposed to me? I was no longer the registered 
agent. Someone had to be. 

Q Is there a reason you were no longer the registered 
agent? 

A Yes. .- ■ --■ 

e Why was that? 

A I resigned. 

2 You were gone by this time? ' 

A Yes. 

C Of this list, the people are substantially the sane 
except for Roger I. Dudley. Has his principal office at 
Salt Lake City? 

A Yes. 

2 Ha was assistant secretary? 

A Ya«. 

2 You have also given us 3 and 6. It appeared to me 
there is no difference between 3 and 6. I want to be sure I 



UNCLASSIr'ED 



493 






NAME: 
762 
763 
764 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 
770 
771 
772 
773 
774 
775 
776 
777 
778 
779 
780 
781 
782 
783 
784 
785 
786 



PAGE 32 



HIR03S000 'i.^i ■•♦ '..'ivi -"".f i. 
am right on that? ^ 

A Ytts. thay look lik« th«y ara tha sama. 

2 This is a docunant dated December 17, 1986. 

A Yes. 

2 You ara listed as the assistant secretary in this 
document; is that correct? 

A Which document ara you talking about? 

2 Let's talk about 3. You were listed as assistant 
secretary in this document; is that right? 

A That is correct. , 

2 Hera you actually with tha company as of this time? 

A What do you mean, with tha company? 

2 Hadn't you resigned by this time? 

A I had resigned in early June of 1986, and then I 
came back as an officer in early September 1986. 

2 I did not--I guess in response to my question, I 
didn't realize you had cone back as an officer of the 
corporation in early September. 

A Yas. 

2 Did you coma back than both as part of Triad 
Managamant Corporation and as-- 

A I cama back as an officer of Triad Management, but 
not as an employee . 

2 And you ware also an officer of Triad American 
Corporation? ^.. 



mimfB 



494 



NAME: 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
7914 
795 
796 
797 
798 
799 
800 
801 
802 
803 
80M 
805 
806 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 



mmm?E 



HIR03S000 ii??is-B ^i>"^8f2f5l p^GE 33 

A That is correct. 

8 Did you ever cease becoming an oiiicer of triad 
American Corporation? 

A Yes. 

Q So there was a period of time from June to 
September 1986 when you had no affiliation with Triad 
American Corporation or Triad Management Corporation? 

A Well. I was providing some services as a 
consultant . 

S Whan after, then, September of 1986, did you resign 
again or did you cease becoming affiliated with either Triad 
American or Triad Hanagement? 

A I have not. 

e I must have confused myself. I thought you told me 
you were not affiliated since June of 1986. Did I 
misunderstand? 

HR. BAIQ: Ke resigned at that time. He came back 
and he is back now. 

HR. EGGLESTOK: I misunderstood. I thought you had 
ceased your affiliation with them. 

THE HITMESS: No. I am not an employee. 
BY HR. EGGLESTOK' 

S So your current position is assistant secretary? 

A That is correct. 

e Let m* show you a doeunent, it looks like it is 




495 



NAME 

812 
813 
81(4 
815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 
82 1 
822 
823 
82M 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
83(( 
835 
836 



HIR03S0OO 




lEO 



PAGE 3(4 



number 12. You had indicated that when you were with--I had 
asked you eailiei with tespect to an earliez period of 
enployment whether or not you were paid in your position as 
an oiiicer oi Triad nanagement Corporation. I think you 
indicated you ware not paid. 

A That-is correct. 

S Are you currently being paid as an assistant 
secretary of the Triad American Corporation? 

A No. 

Q Are you currently being paid as an officer of the 
Triad Management Corporation? 

A Ho. 

Q HoH are you compensated for the work you are doing 
for the Triad Companies? 

A In the past ue had billed various companies for 
services as consulting fees. 

2 You indicated in the past. How today are you being 
compensated? As a consultant? 

A There is a question as to how I an being 
compensated today beoause ue put those companies into 
bankruptcy. That question has not been resolved. 

fi You went into bankruptcy lat* January 1987? 

A January 27. 

S Prior to that time, how ware yoAi compensated? 

A He personally? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



496 



KAHE: 
837 
838 
839 
8U0 
84 1 
8X2 
8X3 
81414 
8145 
846 
847 
848 
849 
850 
851 
852 
853 
854 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 
861 



OHCUSSIBEB 



HIR035000 UllULnUUIB iamV PAGE 35 
S Yes. 

A I was paid iroa tha conpany which I an a principal 
ownttr; that's Hillar £ Clazk. 

2 nillttz £ Clazk zacaivad funds as a consultant to 
Triad Companias? 

A I racaivad funds from anothaz company who in turn 
billed Triad. 

2 Uhat was that company? 
A Sequanca Corporation. 

2 Do you Know who ownad Saquanca Corporation? 
A Xes. 

e Who was that? 

A I ownad 10 parcant, Steva Clazk owns 10 pazcent and 
I think Vertex owns 80 parcant. 

8 Uhen was that corporation established? 
A In June of 1986. 

rtR. BAIO: ''That cozpozation, ' ' Sequence 
Corporation. 

HR. KGGLESTON: Yes. 
It was established in June 1986? 
THE WITNESS: That is correct. , 
BY MR. EGGLESTOK= 
2 Was that established after you resigned from your 
positions with Triad and Triad Hanagamant? 
A That is correct. 



lINClASSiFlEi 



497 



HAKE: 
862 
863 
86M 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 
87 1 
872 
873 
874 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
88U 
885 
886 



ONOlASSlFiED „ 



HIR035000 &J] 1liJL.I«iJa.»ea ■&.!# PAGE 36 

fi Wher« is Sequenc* Corporation located? 

A It is located in Salt Lake City. 

Q What is the principal business oi Sequence 
Corporation? 

A It was set up to market and distribute software, 

coaputer software. 

Q The corporation Vertex Corporation, where is that 
located? 

A I think its principal offices are in Toronto. 
Canada . 

2 Do you know who the shareholders of Vertex 
Corporation are? 

A KO. 

2 Do you know who the officers of Vertex Corporation 



A No. 

2 How do you deal with the Vertex Corporation? 

A Don Fraser. 

2 Do you know his position with Vertex Corporation? 

A I don't. 

2 Do you know a man by the name of Ernest Miller? 

A Yes. 

2 Are you related to Ernest tliller? 

A Ko. 

2 Ernest is actually his middle name, isn't it? If 



UNClASSiHED 



498 



KAHE: 

887 
888 
889 
890 
89 1 
892 
893 
89*4 
895 
896 
897 
898 
899 
900 
901 
902 
903 
9014 
905 
906 
907 
908 
909 
910 
911 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR035000 lli^ill f4lll^ir ir II PAGE 37 

you Know. 

A I don't know. We just call him Exnia . 

2 You ate not related to him? 

A No. I aa not. 

2 Is he aiiillated with Vertex Corporation? 

A Don't know. 

2 Do you know who the chief executive officer of 
Vertex Corpora.ti.on is? 

A Ko . the only person I dealt with. I will tell you 
this again, is Don Fraser. I think he is an officer, but I 
don't know, what his position is. 

2 Do you know the principal business of the Vertex 
Corporation? 

A No. 

2 You believe, though, it is a Canadian corporation 
located in Toronto? 

A Yes. 

2 I will get back to the Vertex Corporation in a 
minute . 

Does Sequenc* Corporation still exist, still a 
corporation? 

A Yes. 

fi Is It still Involved In the business of narketlng 



software? 



A Yes. 



UNCussra 



NAME: 
912 
913 
9 m 
9 IS 
9 16 
917 
918 
919 
920 
921 
922 
923 
9214 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93t* 
935 
936 



HIR03S000 



UNtJSSinED 



PAGE 



38 



C Did you tell me developing or macketing soituaie? 

A Harketing. 

2 Of software? 

A Of software. 

It IS also involved in sone development on some 
computer hardware, too. 

2 As I go through some of the other documents I am 
going to have detailed questions about various of these 
corporations and I will get to them at that time. 

A Okay. 

e J. ask you to take a look at a document, the first 
page which is listed number 12. which is a bank account 
listed for Triad American Corporation. Did you produce this 
in response to the subpoena? 

A I had it produced. 

2 So this was not a pre-existing document? 

A Ko. 

2 There are a number--actually , it is almost two full 
pages--th«rtt are a number of different companies listed here, 
organizations and partnerships. Are these Triad and its 
affiliated companies? 

A Yes. 

2 So when you refer to, for example. Triad American 
Corporation as a holding company and it did its development 
business through a number of different corporations, those 



UNCUSSinED 



500 



NAHE: 
937 
938 
939 
9U0 

9m 

942 
9K3 
9414 
945 
946 
947 
948 
949 
950 
951 
952 
953 
954 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 
961 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSiriEO 



PAGE 39 



corporations are reilected on this list? 

A Yes. ' 

C Similarly, you said part of its business was energy 
related. I take it those companies are also reilected on 
this list? 

A Yes. There are some accounts that, operating 
accounts that the energy company would have in Southern 
Caliiornia. We have no direct control over those. Those 
are just operating accounts for, say, Edgington Oil Company. 

fi So what you just told me is that Edgington Oil nay 
have vari9us operating accounts not xeilactad here? 

A Yes. 

fi Let me taKe a minute to look over this list. 

A Sure. Go ahead. 

Q This may be too broad a question for you to answer, 
but does Triad American own 100 percent of the stock of 
each of those corporations? 

A The answer is no, not entirely. 

fi Can you identify which ones it does not own 100 
percent of the stock of? 

A Hell, first of all, it owns 100 percent of the 
stock in some coapanias such as Triad Properties, but Triad 
Propexties will in turn own 100 percent of the stock in 
other companies such as Salt Lake International, so it 
doesn't directly own> but indirectly at does. 



WIASSIFIEO 



501 



HIR035000 



ONCUSSIflEO 



PAGE MO 



NAME: 

962 there are some companies here that--let me see if I 

963 can pick them out. At one point in time Highland Drive 

964 Sugar House Place had a partner in there. It uas a SO^SO 

965 partner. ^ - - ^ ,. 

966 2 Do you know the partner? 

967 A The partner was Sugar House Limited Partnership. 

968 e Do you know who owns Sugar House Limited 

969 Partnership? 

970 A John D. Stevenson, a fellow in Idaho, and some 

971 family members from the Stevenson family. 

972 The other one that comes to mind right now is SLIC 

973 i«810 — 

97(4 2 Let me just get chere. >. • < 

975 A — Hiley Post Hay Limited Partnership. That is a 

976 partnership that owns a building in which we own 60 percent. 

977 Another one was Triad Burbank Associates. 

978 2 Do you know who owned the other >40 percent? 

979 A Yes. 

980 2 Hho was that? 

981 A X company called, it us«d to be HcGlnnis Ford. It 

982 is out of Oklahoma. Triad Burbank Associates was a company 

983 which Txald owned I believe 80 percent of it, and the 

98(1 partner in that was another partnership called Geiger Tower 

985 Associates. Gelgez Tower Associates had a bunch of 

986 different partners, some in California. 



BNCUSSIRED 



502 



MAKE : 

987 

988 

989 

990 

991 

992 

993 

994 

995 

996 

997 

998 

999 

1000 

1001 

1002 

1003 

loot 

1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 
101 1 



HIR035000 



sfUiSsife , 



AGE <41 



2 Were any of the paitners involved in Geiger Touer 
Associates, were any of them also involved in the other 
Traid company? 

A Ko. 

2 Do you know who the principle players in Geiger 
Associates are? :■'-.•:< 

A Sure. Steve Geiger and Dee Christiansen were the 
developers . 

And that is pretty nuch it as far as outside 
ownership. 

One other, on Triad, Lacaille Ventures, that was a 
corporation of which Triad owned 80 percent and the limited 
partnership there was called Lacaille nanagenent Group. It 
was a partnership to run a restaurant. The Lacaille group 
operated some other restaurants and cane to operate this for 
us . ■• ' V - i -f - ■; , •• 

fi Who are the principal owners, if you know? 

A David Johnson and Steven Runolfson. 

S You have also on document number 14. given us a 
list of the telephone numbers. Let me ask you. I take it 
these are all the phone numbers located at the main offices 
of Triad; is that correct? - 

A Yes. 

fi I see some are coin phones and everything else. 
Can you identify which one is the principles' number for Mr. 



yNOUSSIRED 



503 



HAKE: 
1012 
1013 
10 IK 
10 IS 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 
1022 
1023 
102>4 
1025 
1026 
1027 
1028 
1029 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
103U 
1035 
1036 



HIR035000 

Floor? 

A 

S 

A 

numbers . 

2 

A 

number . 



UNDUSSI 



for floor/ 



The number is--let me just give you the main 



Okay. 

Ue had 537-7300, and you can see it says the old 

That was the main number before the offices moved 
to their present location. 

nr . floor had a private line. His was 537-7310. 
That is on there, too. 

The main--we have actually two main numbers nou for 
the group. One is 537-5000, and the other is 537-7000. and 
there are no private lines associated with that telephone 
system. 

Q Does Mr. floor have a private line now? 
A No, he doesn't. He is no longer with the company. 
2 Prior to the tine he left the company, I take it he 
was with the company after he moved to its new location, did 
he not? 

Ko. 

He was not? 

No. 

Who is the person that principally runs the company 



A 

fi 
A 

e 

today? 



wm^m 



%m 



MAKE: 
1037 
1038 
1039 
10U0 

i6m 

1042 
1043 
1044 
10U5 
10<46 
10U7 
1048 
1049 
1050 
1051 
1052 
1053 
1054 
1055 
1056 
1057 
1058 
1059 
1060 
1061 



HIR03S000 
A 
2 
A 

! A 

2 
1086. 



«iS5ffl 



PAGE 



43 



The day-to-day operations? 

Right. 

Me . 

0£ Triad American Corporation? 

That is right. 

There is a number here which is called, it is 534- 



A Yes. 

2 It says command C. What does command C stand for? 

A Command center. 

2 What is the command center? 

A They monitor the lights and the heat. I have seen 
security people. If there is any emergencies, that is--those 
are the people that call up the paramedics. They take care 
of the janitors. If people will need to get into certain 
areas of the building, they are the people uho can let them. 

2 I know you previously told me when Mr. Floor left 
the company, but when was it he left? 

A Hall, in affect, his authority was reduced in 
September of 1986, and he was in a token position until, I 
think, Kovambar of '86, is when he left. It could be a 
little later. You know, he has got some kind of resignation 
latter ha wzota. I don't know the exact date on that, but 
it was probably around November of '86. 

2 Do you have a private line? 



SEI 




iiiu 



505 



NAME: 
1062 
1063 

106>4 
1065 
1066 
1067 
1068 
1069 
1070 
1071 
1072 
1073 
10714 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
1084 
1085 
1086 



m' 



!?i'Lfldei 




HIR035000 ^* ^vtyina 'i<r5'WI3 I3_,y PAGE UU 

A No> I don't. I had on« . 

2 What was it? 

A Whan we had the old systen, 537-7318. 

S Is It on there? 

A I don't see it. There was a series. There uas--uhen 
you see the 537-7300 number, that was a series of numbers. 
we had 20 lines. I think it went 1 through 20, 730-1, 730-2 
and so forth. The private lines started with the number 10 
and went up to 20 and mine was 731-8. There were others, but 
X don't know what theirs specifically were. 

2 ,Let me return to document number 12. During the 
course of this I asked you about the various corporations. 
You have listei? a number of bank accounts here for the 
various different corporations including the Triad American 
Corporation. 

Other than these, are there any--and in this. X 
think there is one, or I guess there are two foreign bank 
accounts listed. There's Bank of KT Butterfield listed for 
the Triad American Corporation, which is located in the 
Cayman Islands, and there is another one which is on page 13 
which is a Triad Energy Corporation Bank, it appears to be 
Euro Commercial and it is also located in the Cayman 
Islands. Other than those two, did Triad American or any of 
its affiliated companies have any foreign bank accounts? 



No. 



Bm.SSlf!EO 



506 



Hknt HIR035000 



UNcussra 



PAGE US 



1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
109 1 
1092 
1093 
1094 
1095 
1096 
1097 
1098 
1099 



2 Where is the principal location of Triad Energy 
Corporation? 

A It is--well, the books and records are kept in Salt 
Lake City. 

2 Who is the chief executive oiiicet oi Triad Energy? 

A Nou? 

S I will start with now. 

A I an not sure who the chief executive officer is 
right now. 

2 You don't nou who it is right now? 

A No. 

2 Do you know who it was in the years 1985 and 1986? 

A It was probably Tarlq Kadrl. 



IINCUSSiFO 



KANE: 

1 100 
1 101 
1 102 
1 103 
1 104 
1 105 
1 106 
1 107 
1 108 
1 109 
1110 
1111 
1112 
1 1 13 
1 1 m 
1 1 IS 
1 1 16 
1 1 17 
1 1 18 
1119 
1120 
1121 
1122 
1 123 
112U 




HIR035000 



RPTS DOTSON 
DCHN STABNER 

( Rftcftss .1 

BY HR. EG6LEST0M: 

2 L«t BA ditact youz attantion to document number 15. 
This is--and I think th«r« was a raierencs to this in the 
previous document — this account opened it looks like December 
7, 198>« in Cayman Islands. KT Butteriield and Son. It . 
zeilects a loan to Sigma X oi «tO million, I guess, and on 
the same day, which is December 31, 198U, a loan from Triad 
International. / 

Do you have any knowledge of this loan? 

A Only the way it was handled on the books o£ Triad 
American Corporation. 

fi Do you know the purpose of the loan? 

A Uhlch loan? It shows two loans there. 

fi *^ere is a loan from and a loan to. 

A The loan from Triad International Corporation was 
treated as a capital contribution from Triad International. 
The loan to Sigma X was a loan to a company called Sigma X 
Limited. And, to my understanding, Sigma X Limited took 
that money and purchased a 10 percent share of Sigma X, 



yneussinED 



508 



KAHE: 
1 125 
1 126 
1 127 
1 128 
1 129 
1 130 
1131 
1 132 
1133 
1 13U 
113S 
1 136 
1 137 
1 138 
1 139 
1 140 
1141 
1 142 
1 143 
1 144 
1 145 
1 146 
1 147 
1 148 
1 149 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 47 



which was a conpany that had the rights to some oil reserves 
in the Sudan. 

2 Is Sigma X a corporation? Hot Sigma X Limited, 
now? 

A X don't know. 

2 Do you know who owned or was the principle! 
operating oiiicer of Sigma X? '' 

A Ho, I don't. 

2 How about Sigma X Limited? 

A I don't know. 

2 You don't know whather that was a corporation? 

A Ho. I don't. 

2 You don't know who ownad it? 

A No. 

2 You don't know who was tha principal operating 
officer ? ' 

A Ho, I don't. As iar as Triad American was 
concerned, the money came in and went back out. 

2 Is this the only transaction that took place in 
this account? 

A That is right. 

2 If you know, what was the purpose of--two purposes. 
What was the purpose of doing it through a Cayman Island 
account as opposed to your own account in a Salt Lake City 



bank? 



UNCliSSiFIED 



509 



HknZ- HIR035000 



1150 
1151 
1 152 
1 153 
US'* 
1 155 
1156 
1 157 
1158 
1159 
1160 
1161 
1162 
1163 
1164 
1165 

1167 
1 168 
1 169 
1170 
1171 
1172 
1173 
117U 



IINCUSSIFIED- 



A Ho, I don't. 

Q Do you know whose decision it was to establish a 
Cayman Island account in order to process this transaction? 

A Ko. 

2 You indicated that the loan iron Triad 
International uas treated as a contribution to capital? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know whether the loan from Signa X has been 
repaid? 

A The loan from Sigma X has been written off, or I 
should say, fully reserved. 

C Which is to say it was not-- 

A That's right. 

e By fully reserved. I take it that means you don't 
anticipate getting repaid for that loan? 

A That is right. 

2 Do you know what Sigma X did with the loan, with 
the money? 

A I already told you that. It was my understanding 
they purchased a ten percent ownership in Sigma X and that 
Sigma X was the owner of these oil reserves or rights to 
reserves In the Sudan. 

e Do you know whether the oil reserves in Sudan and 
wherever developed? 

A I don't believe they were because shortly after 



UNCUSSIFI[D 



510 



NAME: 
1 175 
1 176 
1 177 
1 178 
1179 
1 180 
1 181 
1 182 
1 183 
1 ISU 
1 185 
1 186 
1 187 
1 188 
1 189 
1190 
1191 
1 192 
1 193 
1 19U 
1195 
1196 
1 197 
1 198 
1199 



HIR035000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 49 



this transaction was dona, I b«liava theie was a change in 
govarnmant and tha naw govarnnent in tha Sudan and voided 
all previously-all pzavious contracts that had been 
established . 

2 Has it your decision to reserve it? 

A Yes. ■.:■ ' ^ , : " ^ t 

2 Uhan did you decide to reserve it, or whatever the 
terminology is? 

A IT was either lata '85 or early '86. 

2 Do you know whether Sigma X and Sigita Limited are 
private corporations? Do you know whether they were 
corporations at all? • ;, 

A I don't. 

S Do you know where thay are located? 

A Ho. 

2 Are there any additional loan documents involving 
Sigma X? I mean, as Triad American, you must have had a 
document? 

A Yes. I think wa have got a loan, a note, a signed 
note from Sigma X. 

2 Has this a secured loan? , '- 

A Mo . , , ^ . 

2 X taka it that tha loan note would have an 
individual's name on it? 

A I am sura it would. Somebody signed for that 



UNOLASSIFIEO 



511 



HAHE: 
1200 
1201 
1202 
1203 
12014 
1205 
1206 
1207 
1208 
1209 
1210 
1211 
1212 
1213 
121>t 
1215 
1216 
1217 
1218 
1219 
1220 
1221 
1222 
1223 
122M 



lOUSSiFSED 



50 



corporation. 

2 You don't recall who that is? 

A Ko, I don't. 

2 I wonder if you could provide that to us? 

A Sure . 

2 That note would only reflect information related to 
Sigma X Limited? 

A That is correct. 

2 Kot to Sigma X itself? 

A Ko. 

2 %o\i would also have. I take it. some supporting 
docitments about the loan itself. X take it there would be 
additional supporting documents? 

A I will send you what I have. I think in that file 
you just have the information on the note. I will pull out 
the file and send you all the documents associated with it. 

2 Ooas Triad Amarican Corporation make public 
filings? Does it file things with the SEC? 

A No. 

2 Is that because it is a privately held corporation. 
It Is not obligated to make filings? 

A That is right. 

e Ooas it make official public filings with any 
organization othar than Internal Revenue Service and. 
obviously, the Salt Lake equivalent — 



mmmn 



5ii 



KAKE: 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123U 
1235 
1236 
1237 
1238 
1239 
12>40 
12m 
12M2 
12(43 
124U 
12(45 
12146 
12M7 
12U8 
12>49 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 51 



A Taxing Authority. 

C Tax Authority, whatever it is, and this corporate 
report which also has to be filed with Utah. Does it make 
any other filings? 

A No. 

I take it back. There are sone reports that we 
prepare, and I can't remenber which governmental agency it 
is for, but it is like the Department of Agriculture or 
something like that. There is some report they normally 
send out that we have to fill out every year. 

Q J)o you know the purpose oi the report? 

A It is an information type report. 

S Like how many pages Is it? How long a report is 



it? 



A It is a four ox five page report, but they are big 
pages. 2<4 inches by about — 

fi What does it require you to report? 

A Just information about the corporation, and 
essentially It asks for information that wa don't do. It 
asks for how much grain has baen shlppad or how much 
invantory wa produce every year. It's like a manufacturer's 
typa zapoxt. And we don't do anything, but we are required 
to flla It. 

fi You think you filed It with the Department of 
Agxlcultuxa? 



lm^ssm 



NAME: 

1250 

> 1251 

1253 
125<4 
1255 
1256 
1257 
1258 
1259 
1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
126<t 
1265 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
1271 
1272 
1273 
127)4 



SIRES 



HIR035000 PAGE 52 

A I'm not sura who ue filed it with. It may be one 
oi the othec departments. 
.• , V S Commerce? . :- ;.. ,no *; ' v , • 

A It might have been Commerce. 

e Are you required to report financial transactions? 

A Mo. 

fi Just primarily manufacturer's type-- 

A Yes. I think ue do file like a balance sheet 
information, total assets, total liabilities, things like 
that. 

e ^hat are the total assets approximately, what were 
they as of December 31, 1986 oi Ixiad American Corporation? 

A I haven't finished the financial reports yet for 
that period so X can't give you an accurate number. 

fi Are you on a fiscal year basis? 

A Ho . ;■■::■< 

fi Calendar year? < -^t,' ;. ' " 

A Calendar year. ■■mi','- ^i'-''. 

ft How about as of Oecembex 31, 1985? Tou can give me 
your best current recollection of an approximation. 

A Probably about «M25 million total assets. 

fi Document number 1, which Is two pages, is a list of 
dlreotozs since 198>t. Was this a pre-existing document or 
did you prepare this pursuant to subpoena. 

A He prepared it pursuant to the subpoena. 



\\m mmf\ 



514 



KAHE: 
127S 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
12811 
128S 
1286 
1287 
12M 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
■UM 
129S 
1296 
1297 
1298 
1299 



HIR035000 



UNcussire 



PAGE 



S3 



2 What I would lik« to do is just 90 through th«s« 
and ask you whan paopla bacoma diractoxs and whan thay 
stoppad bacoaing dixactors . If you can giva ma your bast 
appcoNimatlon about whan that occuzrad. 

Ivan Buzgass xs llstad thaca, nuabaz 1> Euco Bank 
Cozpozation. Gzand Caynan. Oo you zacall appzoKlnataly whan 
ha baeana and caasad bacoaing a dizaotoz? 

k I ballava ha baoaaa a dizaotoz In Hazeh 1968 and 
caasad balng a dizaotoz In about Apzll 1986. 

e Hz. Evans? 

A Z don't Know whan ha baeaaa a dlzaetoz. I think 
soaatlna In 198S. Ra casad bains a dizaotoz. 

S Hz. Floor? 

A Z don't knoM whan ha baeaaa a dizaotoz. la caasad 
balng a dizaotoz In lata *86. 

ft nz. rrasaz. Z taica It slBliazly la Hazeh to Apzll 
'86? 

A That la eerraet. ^ 

a ftayaen4 JalloM? •■:' 
'4 A X think ha baeaaa a diraotos seaatlaa In 1983 and 
than Mant oii tha beazd la 1984. la was thaza ioz a short 
Mziod ei tlaa. 

8 Hr. Kadzl? ■ '-■•^■■'<^ • -■ 

A la baeaaa a dizaotoz la 1983 and laft tha boazd 
Daeanbar 31. 1986. 





m. 



515 



• « ft • 
'. » <\ V * J. 



iirts.'^- \i 



NAHE 

1300 
1301 
1302 
1303 

laoM 

1305 
1306 
1307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
1311 
1312 
1313 
131>4 
1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1.319 
1320 
1321 
1322 
1323 
1324 



HIR035000 



yNOIiSSIFlEO 



PAGE 



sn 



S Adnan Khashoggi? 

A Adnan Khashoggi bacama a director in aither 
Saptambar or Octobar oi 1986. 

Q I am sorry? .-.it^'-^ i " .' 

A Ha bacama a director in Saptambar or Octobar of 
1986, yas, and ha is a director now. 

Q Ha was not previously a director? 

A Ko. 0J> .';-<i..' .'fl- :-*urf !j.t.:' 

S Has ha previously an oiiicer of the corporation? 

A I believe so. •" - ,..:. 

C (ssam Khashoggi? 

A X am not sure when he became a director, but I 
think he cased being a director around September or October 

of 1986. *' -Irvr.:. .■ -t/Xu-:^ , j r - ■• '.ii 

1 

fi Are positions on the board ii.l»d — is there a 
position that is then filled by someone else? 

Let me ask it this way. Did Cssam Khashoggi take 
Adnan Khashoggi 's place on the board? ' - ^ '- '>^^- 

A Triad American Corporation is required to have 
three directors, and I don't know whose place he took but as 
a vacancy was opened up it was filled by various people. I 
think Adnan was made a member of the board when Essam left. 

fi nohammed Khashoggi?^ ^ - i' ' ' 

A I don't know. "^ ■>; .>**!'.•>* 

e Is he related to Adnan and Essam Khashoggi? 



yNSlASSIflEB 



516 



U2S 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
1331 
133S 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13*10 
13U1 
13tt2 
1343 
13«m 
13MS 
13*(6 
\3H7 
I3«48 
13119 



. BHCUSSIFIED •■ 



Hint: HI1103SOOO |l?.!l'l nVVll>3i.!l P»« 55 



X Yes. 

ft Hhat is his ralationship? 

A Hs is Adnan's sen. 

a Uh*n was ha a ■•■bar of tha board, or is ha a 
aaabac of tha board? 

A Ha baeaaa a Maabac of tha boaxd? 

A Ha baeaaa a aaabax of tha board as of tha aiddla of 
Januaxr 1987. Again, wa had to raplaea a aaabar . Uhan 
Tarif Kadri rasivnad. Ma had to raplaea hia. That is whan 
nohaaaad want on tha beard . 

ft Row old is nohaaaad T 

A I aa 9uassing. 2*1. 

ft Nr. Killar, Z taka it. siailarly. Hr. Ualtar Irnast 
tlillax, was siailarly Harch to April '86? 

A That is eerraet. 

ft Again on paga 2 thara is a list of tha ofiiears of 
tha corporation. Z think Z hava substantially askad you 
about all thasa paopla and will net go ovar this list. 

Z aa sorry* lat aa just— Z do want to go ovar tha 
list, but Z will go ovar it fuiekly. Kaaaual Floor and nr. 
Kadri ara both listad as awacutiva viea prasidant. 

A That is eorraet. 

a Zs that a suoeassien or war* thara two awaeutiva 
vica prasidaats? 

A Thara wasa two awaoutiva viea prasidants^ • 



mu%w^ 



KAnc 

1350 
1351 
1352 
1353 
v:.*i* 13S«» 
1355 
^ 1356 
1357 
1358 
1359 
1360 
1361 
1362 
1363 
13611 
1365 
1366 
1367 
1368 
1369 
1370 
1371 
1372 
1373 
137U 



HIR03S000 



uNtiAssra 



PAGE 56 



Q Sinilarly, thera are two prasidents listed here, 
Hr . Ftasex and Essam Khashoggi. '^' 

A That uas a succession. 

2 Does it go from Essam Khashoggi to Fraser and does 
it go back to Essam Khashoggi? 

A I don't know. *^< ,. - | 

Q Do you know who became the president? 
A I don't know ii one was named, 
fi Is there a president now? 
A Yes . ' '"' ' 

fi Who is that? * -^''^ 

A Hr. Fraser. -- - ■ ^ ■ 
e Donald W. Fraser is the president? 
A Yes . 

8 He resigns, it is in here, late April — maybe it is 
even Hay oi 1986. '''' ' ' 

MR. BAIO: I think it is April. The document is 
dated Hay. 

nVL. EGGLESTON: X just don't remember. Something 
else happens late in Hay, we'll get to it. 

He resigns as president; is that correct? 
THE HITHESS: Yes. 
BY HR. EGGLESTON^ 
Q There Skcomes a time he becomes president again? 



A Yes. 



ONCUSSIRED 



518 



UNQiSSIRED ~ 



Hint-- RZK035000 

1375 e Hh«n wat that? 

1376 ft IN about Saptaabac 1986. 

1377 s So ha is currantly prasldant? 

1378 A Yas. 

1379 e Is Ke . Einast nillat, Exnia HillaE. currantly 

1380 aiiiliatad with Triad? -jr. 

1381 I In tarns of baing an oiflear or diractor? 

1382 e Right. ., 

1383 A No. 

13814 ft Is ha an amployaa? 

1385 . » No. 

1386 ft Is ha affiliatad in any foraal fashion? 

1387 A Not that I know of. 

1388 ft Hou about Hr . Burgass? 

1389 . A No. 

1390 ft Do you know Hr . Burgass? 

1391 A No. 

1392 ft To your knewladga. is ha an oificar or diractor oi 

1393 aithax Vartax or Euro — 
139M A I don't know. 

1395 ft So you know his ralationship with Hr . Frasar or dr. 

1396 Ixnast Millar? 

1397 A I don't know. 

1398 ft Businass partnar of soaa natura? 

1399 A nay ba. but I don't know. 



«HCiissra 



KAnZ- HIR035000 
1400 

mo 1 



mmm - 



1402 

1403 

1404 

1405 

1406 

1407 

1408 

1409 

1410 

141 1 

1412 

1413 

1414 

1415 



GE 58 
fi Th« last names, Hugatd, Linford, Taylor and 
Hhitesida, which oi thosa is currently with Triad American 
Corporation? 

A None oi them. 

Is there an assistant vice president today? 
Ho. 



Is thee a senior vice president today? 
No. 



8 Hhen did they leave. Do you know? 

A They left when they were terminated, probably in 
September, oi 1985. or — 

Q 1986? ' " "^ ; 

A 1986. ;'" 

e What happened in September oi 1986? Has there a 
reorganization oi the corporation? 

A Yes. 



V; .••>?. , / .- 



Ur^uU^irij id) 



520 



Hxnz- 

1K16 
H»17 

mis 

ti420 
1(421 
1«22 
1U23 
1U24 
m25 
1426 
11127 
1428 
1*429 
1(430 
1(431 
1(432 
1(433 
1(434 
1435 
1436 
1437 
1438 
1439 
1440 



HIR03S000 






59 



OCnX GLASSNAr 

e Hhat happ«n«d? 

A Lttt a* just tall you th« story. Th*n you can asK 
questions li my •Kplanation doasn't suiilca. 

a Okay. 

A In 19 — In April-Hay. 1986, Don Frasar and th« othar 
paopla assoclatad with Euro Bank and Vortax cama In to 
provida soma Banaganant assistance . Thay also uara to 
provida soma cash for tha operations. Thay cana in. thay 
started providing cash, they saw the problems that existed 
and started to make some changes. 

There were some disagreements between those people 
and the management that had been in place for a number o£ 
years, and the management that had been in place convinced 
the owners that they didn't need to make any changes, that 
everything was going to be fine and that they should ask the 
people that had come in to leave, and convinced them to do 
that. They asked Fraser. niller and their people to leave. 
and they did. It is evidenced by the disengagement 
agreement. 

During the subsequent months, the existing 
management continued to throw the company into serious 






521 






NAME- 

mm 

1U142 
1443 
1444 
1445 
1446 
1447 
1448 
1449 
1450 
1451 
1452 
1453 
1454 
1455 
1456 
1457 
1458 
1459 
1460 
1461 
1462 
1463 
1464 
1465 



HIRO3SO00 PAGE gg 

financial difficulties, and it got to th« point uheie th«y 
ware extremely serious. There were some very company- 
threatening problems that existed in early September. At 
that point, Fraser was asked never to come back again. At 
that point of time, they came back in and intended to cut 
the overhead, uhich they had intended to do early in the 
year, and that is when you see a lot of these people 
leaving . 

The staff Has cut when they first came in in March 
of 1986. There were probably 250 to 270 people in the 
overhead of the corporation that existed. The overhead uas 
at times upwards of «2, «2 . 5 million a month. They 
subsequently reduced that overhead in the initial cuts to 
about 150 people in nazch and April. When they came back in 
in September, they reduced that down further to the point 
where we have. I think we have ten employees right now. 

e Can you give ■• an estimate of what the assets of 
Triad American are now? 

A Yes. 

9 You Indicated — 

A They are about 400. 425. something like that, 425 
million. " '' • ^ - 

e Do you know what the liabilities are as of today? 

A Yes. 

fi I take It they exceed — 



■ ^-^ 



522 



KANE 

me? 

1<468 
1U69 
tit70 
1«I71 
1U72 
1«473 
1i47<4 
1075 
I<I76 
H477 
11478 
H»7» 
1480 

mti 

1U82 
11183 
1<I8M 
1i(8S 
11186 
1it87 
11188 
m89 
1490 






HIK035000 PAGE 6 1 

A Ho, th«y don't. Actually, thay don't. Thata is 
soma aquity in tha companias. On a book basis, thaia is 
about «60 Billion oi liquidity in tha company. 

S Whan you say tha managamant in plaea — 

A Floor, cadra — it uas basically tha diractions uara 
coming from tha Boaxd oi Dixactoxs, which includad Essam 
Khashoggi bacausa ha was tha pxasldant and chia£ axacutiva 
oificar. Ma was also tha chairman oi tha board. 

S Hhan you talkad about tha ownars, thay convincad 
tha ownaxs — 

A That would ba tha ownaxs which conttitutad Zlk 
Zntarnational and Triad Intarnational. ^ , 

fi If I could ask ysu, how is it you andad up in 
partnaxship — is it Sa^uanea Corporation? 

A Tas. 

ft Did you gat to know Frasar and Hillar during tha 
eoursa oi this oparation? 

A Yas . 

a Ara thay assantlally invastexs. is that what thay 
do? 

k Yas. 

ft Did you hava any prior axparianca in soitwara 
■mxkatias? 

A Kot in markating soitwara. Z hava a lot oi 
axpaxianea in eeaputaxs . 




^ 



NAME: 

m9i 

1((92 
II493 
14914 
1U95 
1496 
1497 
1498 
1499 
1500 
1501 
1502 
1503 
1504 
1505 
1506 
1507 
1508 
1509 
1510 
151 1 
1512 
1513 
1514 
1515 



HIX035000 






PAGE 



62 



fi How big a corpozation is Sequanca Cozpotation? 

A Mot v«ty big. 

C HOM many enployeos? 

A Ther« at« no employees. That is hou big it is. 

8 Hou much assets does it have? 

A It has pzobably got «130,000 in assets. 

Q So it cuzzently is a faizly small corpozation? 

A Yes. 

2 Where does your income come iron? 

A There is no income right now because I have been 
devoting /ty time to take care oi the problems at Triad. i 
guesS/ in eiiect# yeS/ there is income. It is coming irom 
Triad on a consulting type basis. 

S You get some consulting fees. So the way it works 
is your consulting time is billed through Sequence 
Corporation? 

A Yes. 

2 I have put these documents together in some way I 
hope is rational. I am looking at document 23. This is a 
document titled ''Hinutes oi Telephonic Meeting of Board of 
Directors and Shareholders of Triad American Corporation.'* 
I would like to ask you a number of questions about this. 
Obviously I am not going to read the whole document, but I 
have a number of different questions I am interested in 



asking . 



iSKSK 



524 



Hint HIR03S000 S^l^ulLi'iV'.ViB iimV F»GE 63 

1516 This deeuaant r«f*£S to both a company callad Euro 

1517 and a company callad Voxtax. Do you knoM who tha principal 

1518 oparatoxs oi Zuxo Comaaxeial Finanea axa? Do you know who 

1519 thay axa? 

1520 & Mo. 

1521 fi low about Voxtax Finanea? 

1522 k Ke. 

1523 S You had Indieatad that you had soaa daalinss with 
1S2U Voxtax thzeugh tha pazsen of Donald Fxasax> is that xight? 

1525 k Yas. 

1526 e Bo you knoM whathax ha is asseeiatad with Euro 

1527 Cowaazeiai Finanea? 

1528 k X ballava h« is. 

1529 ft How about Craia Itlllaz^ is ha, to youz knowladga. 

1530 assoeiatad with Vertax? 

1531 k I think ha is. I don't knew fox suta. 

1532 fi loM about luxe CoBaazeial? 

1533 k Z dOM't think ha is. 

153<i B Z think Z askad you if you knew who tha dizaetots 

1535 and oiiieass imz* ei Vezt«K. 

1536 k X daa't. 

1537 ft Z don't knew if Z askad you about Buce Cosaaxeial? 

1538 k No. 

1539 ft Be yeu knew whaza that eoapany is leeatad? 
1SU0 k 1 ballava it is leeatad in tha Cayaan Zslaads. 






125 



UMiil A'^-^-i 









NAME: 
15U1 
15<42 
15143 
15(4 1« 
15U5 
15(46 
15(47 
15(48 
15(49 
1550 
1551 
1552 
1553 
155U 
1555 
1556 
1557 
1558 
1SS9 
1560 
1561 
1562 
1563 
156(4 
1565 



mmmm 



HIR035000 — -- 'wmi^ PAGE 6U 

a Lat mtt just ask you g«narally. Thara ara nou a 
satias of documants I an going to shou you which start, tha 
ones that appaax to ba Triad documants start in aarly Harch 
and go through lata May. Uara you involved in tha planning 
and draiting decisions that want into these documents? 

A Ho. 

2 Is your knouladge of these documents as the chief 
financial officer of the corporation, or is your position-- 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have Knowledge of these events as they were 
going on,, that these loans were being made and these 
financial transactions and changes in the corporation were 
taking place? 

A Not as thay were going on. I knew of them as thay 
were completed, and I saw the documents. 

2 But you were not someone who was part of the 
negotiations? 

A Ho. 

a Just generally, do you know who it was that — and 
this was a fairly major restructuring, as you have told us, 
of Triad American Corporation. Do you know who ware the 
principal negotiators of this deal? 

A Hhat deal? Ask ma spaciiios. 

a I wanted to ask a general first and now I will ask 
a specific. It sounds to ma as if you can't answer it any 






526 



UNGUiSSra 



Hint HIX035000 lllllil Htlilkq SE.U page es 



1566 
1567 
1568 
1569 
1570 
1571 
1572 
1573 
157M 
1575 
1576 
1577 
1578 
1579 
1580 
1581 
1582 
1583 
158*4 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 



othar way. L«t m* just go through it. and I uill ask you 
sp«cifically as Z go through than. 

On paga 26 — lat aa ilrst ask you, this docuaiant is 
datad. as Z raoall, as of Hareh 20. and this is tha docunant 
that is tha aaating oi tha sharaholdars that actually, as I 
taka it, af facts tha changa in tha corporata structura. Is 
that right? 

k Yas. 

S This is actually tha documant Mhara Essaa Khashoggi 
rasigns as prasidant. chiaf aKacutiva officar. and Donald 
Frasar is alactad as his suecassor? 

k That is corract. 

a ind that is raflactad, Z think, on tha bottom of 
paga 26 and top of paga 27. 

lat mm ask you about paragraph four raflactad on 
paga 27. This rafars to a loan of «21 million aada by 
Sarsuati Zntarnational to Adnan Khashoggi. Ara you familiar 
Mith tha company. Sarsuati Zntarnational? 

k Ko. 

ft Oo you know Mhara it is loeatad? 

k No. 

ft Do you knoM who its chiaf axaeutiva officar, 
sharaholdaza. any of its diraotors and offiears ara? 

k Ko. 

ft latar documants raflact this •21 million loan is. 



WSM® 



527 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 66 



NAME: HIR035000 

1591 in fact, threa loans that were mada on Noueraber 15, November 

1592 18 and January 5. We will get to them, later. 

1593 Did you have any knowledge of those loans as of the 
159U time they were made? 

1595 . A No. 

1596 2 Now, this paragraph four refers to that loan, which 

1597 it calls «21 million, from Sarsuati International to Adnan 

1598 Khashoggi and also refers to an assignment from the Sarsuati 

1599 to Vortex Finance. Do you know whether Donald Fraser was 

1600 associated with Sarsuati International? 

1601 A Don't know. 

1602 Q Or, similarly^ Ernie Killer, do you know whether he 

1603 was associated with Sarsuati? , , 
160U A I don't know. 

1605 e Do you have any knowledge at all about the reason 

1606 the loan was assigned from Sarsuati to Vortex? 

1607 A No. 

1608 Q This document also refers to a loan that Euro 

1609 Commercial Finance was going to make, I believe, to Triad 
16 10 American Corporation. Is that corxeot? 

16 11 A Yes. ^ ■ . . , -« 

16 12 e Has that loan made? . i 

1613 A A commitment was made, and funds wer* received by 

16 1<4 Triad American under that commitment. 

16 15 fi Do you know the dollar amount received under that 



wussw 



528 



UNCUSSIFIED 



KXnZ HI1035000 ^--- pj^-j ^^ 

1616 coaaitmant? 

1617 A Y«s. 

1618 ft Kew Much has that? 

1619 A «1, 760. 000. 

1620 ft It was not th* iull aaount? 

1621 I No. it was not. 

1622 2 This doeumant, on paga 28. also tafats to an 

1623 additional loan which as o£ tha data of this docuaant 
162<4 appaars not to hava baan aada froa VortcK to Adnan 

1625 Khashoggi. Oo you know whathar an agxaaaant foe that loan 

1626 was avant.ually raachad? 

1627 k Z don't — I hava no knowladga of it. Z hava saan a 

1628 docuaant that says thay Intandad to aaka tha loan, but froa 

1629 ay knowladga and fxoa tha standpoint of Triad Aaarican 

1630 Corporation no such loan was avar aada. 

1631 ft Could you just rapaat that? 

1632 A Okay. Z baliava Z hava saan soaa docuaants that 

1633 would indioata that an agraaaant was raachad to aaka an 
163>« additional loan, but froa tha standpoint of Triad Aaarican 

1635 Corporation and its books and racords and froa avaryona I 

1636 hava askad. no such loan was avar aada. 

1637 ft Thasa loans, which total «30 aillion--as of this 

1638 docuaant. a total of «30 aillion — was saourad by various 

1639 propartias balonging to Triad Aaarican. is that corract? 
1610 A That is corract. 



« 




529 



mssiREo.-. .. 




MA«E: MIR03S000 1 5|<5t| a.^Ji:^'' TS 3 5 ! P»Gt 68 



161*1 
16M2 
16(13 
16im 
16(15 
1646 
16<47 
1648 
1649 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
1654 
1655 
1656 
1657 
1658 
1659 
1660 
1661 
1662 
1663 
1664 
1665 



fi Do you know th« ttason Triad Anatican agt**d to 
sacur* thft •21 million loan that uas mad* to tlr . Adnan 
Khashoggi? 

A No. 

e Do you know whathar Triad Amarican racaivad any 
considaration irom Adnan Khashoggi for its agraamant to 
saeura tha loan that was aada to him. apparantly parsonaXly? 

A It did not. 

2 It did not racaiva it. thay did not racaiva 
anything? 

A Ko. 

S At of this tima. I think you tastifiad ha was not a 
diractor of tha corporation. 

A That is corcaet. 

e And ha was not an officar to tha corporation? 

A That is corract. 

ft Ha was not an amployaa of tha corporation? 

A That is corract. 

ft I think I hava alraady rafarrad to paga 28. which 
makas a rafaranea to an anticipatad «10 million loan which 
will ba mada by Vortax to Adnan Khashoggi. Is it your 
undarstanding that this agraamant also was to saeura tha 
Triad — that Triad Amarican Corporation would saeura that loan 
as wall? 

A That was not my undarstanding. X raally don't know 



UNGlASSra 



530 



KAHE: 
1666 
1667 
1668 
1669 
1670 
1671 
1672 
1673 
167U 
167S 
1676 
1677 
1678 
1679 
1680 
1681 
1682 
1683 
168H 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 



HIR03S000 



UNCinssire 



PAGE 



69 



anything about that loan other than the reference here and 
another docunent that is in here some place. 

S So iar as you know. Triad American was not with its 
assets going to secure another *10 million, which as of this 
time hadn't been loaned or an agreement hadn't been reached-- 

A To my knowledge, it had not. 

S I am going to start racing around here now a little 
bit. 

The document I have before me is number 39U. At 
the top of 3914 there are various dates placed on here. Do 
you know when these were placed on here at the top? I could 
read it out for you. Maybe I should, for the record. 
''Har. 07, '86, 10:U2, Triad Anexlcan SLC': and then below 
that, ''Mar.'*, then it refers to — I can't actually read it 

' 'M-a-n-a-g-e-c-o-Geneva. ' ' 

\ 

A n-a-n-r--you cant read that stuff. 

S Do you Know what those numbers are? 
A You want me to guess? 

e I don't want you to purely guess. Have you ever 
seen anything like this before? 

■ Kr. • ■ - ,'■■■' 

A Sure. They look like the date, information that 
goes with rapid FAX, rapid copies. 

S Mould this — and, again, Z don't want you to guess, 
but does this indicate it was sent to this location? 

A Hho it was sent to ox fro«. 



Btl^SSS® 



531 



UNClASSinED 



KAHE: HZt035000 PAGE 70 

1691 e Siaxlairly. th« top on*, which is in slightly 

1692 samllcr print, do you think that a«ans who it was s«nt to oc 

1693 sant froa? 

169(1 k Yas. probably. 

1695 fi This is a promissory nota. datad tlarch 6, 1986. 

1696 whara Triad Xaariean Corporation pronisad to pay Euro 

1697 Coajtareial Financa *9 million. Is this tha promissory 

1698 nota — tha documant that Z hava was actually signad. Do you 

1699 know whathar this was was tha promissory nota that was 

1700 signad? 

1701 i I think it was. 

1702 fi Has this tha documant rafarrad to in tha prior 

1703 documant I just talkad to you about, tha iirst paga of which 
170*1 is numbar 23. whara thara is a raiaranca to tha *9 million 

1705 loan? This is tha promissory nota? 

1706 A Z baliava so. 

1707 e This nota saams to indieata. at laast as of this 

1708 data, only CI million oi tha «9 million would ba fundad. 

1709 k That is right. 

1710 Z think latar documants raflact an additional 

1711 760,000 was iundad. Do you know what tha *\ million that 

1712 was fundad as of this data was usad for? 

1713 k Absolutaly. 

17111 a What was it usad for? 

1715 k Zt was usad for oparations of Triad Amarican 






€32 



NAHE: 

•c 17 16 
• 1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 

* 17*3 
172U 
172S 
1726 
1727 
1728 

■ 1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 

-■' 1733 
173U 
1735 
1736 
1737 
17 38 
1739 
171*0 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



HIR035000 llS^ana M.ti^.'S 11 ij Pl^GE 71 
Corporation and subsidiaries. 

2 Do you know whan the additional *760,000 was 
funded? 

A It was probably funded within — on a weekly 
basiS'-again, I am recalling this from memory, but I am sure 
it was funded on a weekly basis as the bills cane due over 
the next three or four weeks. 

S And, again, it is your understanding they were also 
used for operating expenses of Triad Corporation? 

A Yes. I know they were used. If you need, I can 
tell you what bills they paid. 

S Uell--actually , that is interesting to ne . You know 
which bills were paid? 

A I can tall you exactly which bills were paid. 

S What kind? 

A Payroll, interest payments, it paid bills to keep 
the telephones operating, the lights on and also some heat. 

2 As of this date, you needed some cash, I take it? 

A He were in a severe cash shortage. 

2 Do you know when this note was signed? 

A It was probably signed on ox about the 6th of 
March, it could have been the 7th, but I am sure it was very 
close to the date of the note. < 

2 The document I have now has the first page number 
7148, which is an agreement between Khashoggi, Vortex, 




^m(^ 




533 



KAHC 

17m 

17U2 
17«l3 
17^^ 
17US 
I7«t6 
17«l7 
17M8 
17119 
17S0 
1751 
17S2 
1753 
17SU 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 
1762 
1763 
176<l 
1765 




INOU! 



ii ; 



72 



HIlt035000 Wi ; V5««' t V «•- -^ ■ '-""— pjQj 
Trivsrt Intaxnational and Tziad imatican. 

Lat Ba ask you. wa hava talkad alraady about Adnan 
Khasheggl and Vortax. Ara you faailiaz with a conpany 
eallad Tsivazt Zntatnatlonal? 

A No, Z aa not. 

S Is it a Ttiad afilliata company? 

k It Is not. to my Knowladga. 

S Do you know who opacatas Tzivast? 

k Ko. 

5 So you knoM Mho tha sKazaheldazs wazaT 

6 No. 

8 Oz tha oiiioazs oz dlzaetozs? 
A No. 
S It aptaaxs to data it is a Cayaan Islands 

eozpozation. Do you knoM if it Mas a Cayaan Islands 
eozpozation? 

A No. I do not. 

B Do you knoM Mhaa Ttivort Zntaznatlonal was ezaatad? 

A No. I don't. 

e Bo rou kaoM Hhathaz Frasar had any affiliation oz 
assoeiatloa Mlth Zzivatt* 

a No. Z doa«t. 

ft lat aa taka you thzeufh this doouaant. 

Fizst, this doouaant on pafo 7ii9 aakas zafazanea 
to. tha last two liaas, and Z Mill 90 thzough tha datails of 



mmmii 



534 



KknT- 

1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 
1772 
1773 
177<4 
1775 
1776 
1777 
1778 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
17814 
1785 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 



HIR035000 



iiNtu^ssra 



PAGE 73 



thtt transaction in a second, but th« last thxa* lines of 
paragraph thraa make raiaranca to tha facilitation of 
certain narkating agraanants in which A.K. or its associates 
would be involved? Do you know what tha reference to 
certain narketing agreements is? 

A I do not. 

Q Pursuant to this docunent, it appears that--well, 
let me ask you this first. Did you have any role in the 
negotiation of this document? 

A Ho. , 

B Do you know whaxa this document was negotiated? 

A No. 

S When did you first see this document? 

A I first saw this documant whan I asked our 
attorneys, who were our attorneys at tha time, for their 
files on Triad American, so that I could comply with the 
subpoena, and that is tha first time I saw that. It was 
probably--whan was It sent? 

HR. BAIO: Within tha last weak or so. 
THE WITNESS: It was within tha last two weeks for 
sure . 

: , iu ■ 4 • K't" 

BY HR. EGGLESTOH: 
fi So you had not saan that before? 
A I had not seen that before. 
2 You have read It now? 



\^i 



a; 



mmm 



535 



KAME: 
1791 
1792 
1793 
179«» 
179S 
1796 
1797 
1798 
1799 
1800 
1801 
1802 
1803 

180^ 

180S 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 
1811 
1812 
1813 
181<4 
181S 




HIR03S000 Ulllll ffali^j^ if it ''*°^ '''* 
A Z hav* lookttd through it, yas. 

e L*t a« ask you if my undttxstanding o£ this documant 
is cotzact. 

HK. BAZO: Z don't Know what that axarcisa doas. 
Hata is a guy who had nothing to do with it, you ara xaading 
it and you ata asking hin whathar his undatstanding comports 
with yours. Zt is cattainly not avidanca. Zt is sort of 
nothing. 

THE HZTNESS: Z guass what you naad to do is ask 
tha principals involvad. 

BY nt. KGGLZSTOX: 
Zt is kind of nothing, but ha as tha ehiaf 
axaoutiv* eifiear of this ooapany. Triad Aaariean 
Corporation, which was a party to this agraaaant, at laast 
as Z undarstand it was party to this agraaaant — Z don't know 
that it is going to hurt for ■• to ask hia what this 
agraaaant eentaaplatad. 

int. BAIO> zt is alaost asking for a lagal 
conclusion now. Zt says what it says. 

Tit HITKKSS' Z can tall you this doouaant was 
nawaz pzodwoad for at laast tha accounting sida of tha 
corporation, and X had aavar saaa it bafera. Zt has navar 
baaa racordad on tha books, nor do Z know of anybody in tha 
corporation now, outsida of Hr. Frasar, ha aay knew, but you 
would hava to ask hia. Anyona alsa in tha corporation has 



WlASSffl 



536 



NAME: 
1816 
1817 
1818 
1819 

* 1820 
1821 
1822 
1823 
1824 
1825 
1826 

' 1827 
1828 
1829 
1830 
1831 
1832 
1833 
183M 
1835 
1836 
1837 
1838 
1839 
18itO 



mm^m 



HIR035000 --."..-'o.' ::~J^- pjcE 75 

never seen this . 

BY HR. EGGLESTON: 

Q Let ma direct your attention to page 751. There is 
a signature for the Triad American Corporation. Whose name 
is that? 

A Emanuel A. Floor. 

2 There is a signature for Triad International 
Corporation. Do you recognize that signature? 

A It looks like Adnan Khashoggi. ' 

2 Are you familiar with his signature? What I am 
trying to ascertain-- 

A It looks like it, but I can't say because I have 
seen an ''A*' written and a couple slashes written in 
sometimes. It looks like his. It looks like Khashoggi. 

e I just wanted to ascertain whether you had some 
familiarity with It. 

A Ko, I don't. , ' 

e Do you know who signed on behalf of Trlvert 
International? ■- ■ ~ - ^ 

A It looks like Don Frasax. 

a And tha signature of Vortex looks, to my untrained 
aye, tha saaa as tha signature foz — fezgat that. 

A Khloh page? I 

fi I aa on paga 750. I backed up. Does that look to 
you to be Don Frasaz's signature as wall? 



mmm 



537 



NAHC: 
18141 
18t42 
18U3 
18M<4 
18115 
18t<6 
18U7 
ISUS 
1849 
18S0 
18S1 
1852 
1853 
18SX 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 
1862 
1863 
1864 
1865 



HIX03S000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 76 



A It looks lik* th« sa»« slgnatuz*. 

a Hhcr* did you obtain this document in complianc* 
with th« subpo«na> 

A rroa th« iil«s of our attorneys. 

e Mho ara thay? 

A At tha tiaa it was Parsons, Bahla C Latimar. 

fi Thay ara looatad in Salt Laka City? 

A Yas. 

e On paga 752. thara is a promissory nota datad March 
6, 1986, which indicates Khashoggi is borrowing «10 million 
from Vortax rinanca. Had you saan this document prior to 
today? 

A No. 

e Do you have any knowledge as to whether this 
document was aver executed? 

A I do not. 

S Similarly, page 753 is a promissory nota also datad 
March 6. 1986. This is a promissory nota where Trivert 
agrees to pay Adnan Khashoggi tlO million. Is tha first 
time you saw this document also two weeks ago? 

A That is right. 

S You don't know whan this document was executed? 

A I have no idea. 

e Document SHU, when is the first time you saw this 



document? 



wussfffl 



538 



KAHE: 
1866 
1867 
1868 
1869 
1870 
1871 
1872 
1873 
187U 
1875 
1876 
1877 
1878 
1879 
1880 
1881 
1882 
1883 
188M 
1885 
1886 
1887 
1888 
1889 
1890 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 77 



A I saw that documant in March, 1986. 

Q This documant is datad March 6, 1986. Lat aa ask 
you to look at paga 5'«6 . Thera is a signature for Sarsuati 
International. Doas that appear to be Don Fraser's 
sitnature? 

A It looks lika it. It may not be. 

Q But it is consistent with his signature you have 
seen baiora? 

A Yes. 

2 What I want to ask you about is on page 5t«7, this 
is a stock puxchasa agxaamant, datad March 15, 1985, which 
makes raieranca to a loan iro« Sarsuati to Adnan Khasho^gi, 
and the documant seems to indicate Khashoggi is the 
controlling shareholder o£ Triad International Corporation. 
Was this exhibit attached to the document that begins on 
page SHU as oi the time you saw the document? 

A It might have been. I can't say for sure. It may 
have been. 

2 I am obviously not going to take you through what 
you knew about this, but on page 550, there is a signature 
for Sarsuati International. Do you know whose signature 
that is? 

A Never seen it. 

2 You don't recognize it? 



Ko. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



539 



NAME: HIR035000 

1891 

1892 

1893 

189X 

1895 

1896 
1897 
1898 
1899 
1900 
1901 



UNCLASSIFIED ... ,. 



1902 
1903 
190)* 
1905 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
1910 
191 1 
1912 
1913 
1911* 
1915 



e Pft9« SSI is A pto«is»ory not«. Do you think this 
<locu««iit was attached as of tha tima you saw it? 
A It nay hava baan. 

e You don't hava any spacific racoHaction? 
A I don't know. 

8 Also SS2. datad Novaabat 18, and 553. which is tha 
nota datad January 5. 1986. 

A It nay hava baan. I raoall at that tiaa I knaw 
thara was aora than ona loan that aada up tha •2 1 aillion. 
So I probably had soaa knowladga . I don't racall whathai 
thasa spaoiiic doouaants wara attachad or not. 

fi Oo you hava any knowladga as to tha usa to which 
Hr. Adnan Khashoggi put tha «21 aillion? 
A Ko. 

a Do you know whathar any of this ♦21 aillion was 
usad to support tha oparating axpansas of Triad Aaarican 
Corporation? 

A It was not. 
S You know it was not? 
A I know that it was not. 

S lat aa diract your attantion to paga 562. This is 
a rafaranca to a 89 aillion loan froa luro Coaaarcial to 
Triad Aaarioan Corporation, right? 
A Yas. 
a This loan, as 1 racall, aakas a rafaranca at tha 



UNCIASHD 



540 



MAKE: 
1916 
1917 
1918 
1919 
1920 
1921 
1922 
1923 
19214 
1925 
1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
193U 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
19140 



UNCLASSIFIE! 



HIR035000 Ul lULif aULIBI ll_L« PAGE 79 
bottom o£ pag« 562 to th« puiposa for which tha loan will be 
us«d. Uh«n is tha first time you saw this docunant? Did 
you know about this documant as of narch> 1986? 

A Yas. 

2 Is this tha loan of which only 41.7 nillion was 
disbuzsad? 

A That is right. ''"'''' "^ -•■• ' 

Q So tha rafaranca at tha bottom of 562 to 14.5 
million baing usad to ratira payablas of TAG and tha other 
I . 5 having to do with tha construction loan, at laast tha 
<4 . 5 to closa tha construction loan was navar iundad by-- 

A That is right. 

S Of tha 1.7, siK million, I guass, I taXa it that 
was usad to ratira payablas of TAG? 

A Yas. 

Q Now, documant 67 I am back to. This is a docunant 
antitlad, ' ' Irravocabla ProKy'* at tha top. Hhan is tha 
first tima you saw this? Wara you awara of this at tha time 
it was axacutad? 

A I don't racall whan tha first tima is I saw it. 

e This is not a documant you only saw within tha last 
two waaks? This is a dooumant you think you have only seen 
during tha last two waaks? 

A I may hava saan it bafora than. I don't ramambar. 

2 Just ona othar question about this documant. 







541 



NAnE = 

19141 

19(42 
1943 
19Mt» 
19145 
19U6 
19U7 
19148 
19149 
1950 
1951 
1952 
1953 
19511 
1955 
1956 
1957 
195S 
1959 
19«0 
1961 
1962 
1963 
196(4 
1965 



HIR035000 



UNCLASSiriEO 



PAGE 80 



because it otharwls* speaks ior itself. I think I asked you 
this, but do you know what relationship Ivan Butgess had to 
VetteK Finance? 

No, I don't. 

Have you ever set Ivan Burgess? 

I think I mat him once. 

Do you know where that took place? 

Yes. 

Where? 

In the Cayaan Islands. 

Do you know where in the Cayaan Islands? 

Yes. 

Hhere? 

At Euro Coaaer«lal Bank. 

Hhen was that? 

This is at Don Frater's wedding. 

Hhen was Sen Fraser aazxied? 

Deoeabez 31. 

Deeeakes 31 — 

'•6. 

Deeaaber 31 •£ '96? . 

Yas. 

B14 you knew his wlis feaioze? 

Knew his wl<«r 

Yas. 0i4 you know tha weaan ha aarriad? 



UNClASSiFlEO 



542 



KAHE- 

1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
197 1 
1972 
1973 
1974 
1975 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
198(t 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 



HIR035000 



UNCUSSIHED ,. 



GE 81 



A Yas. 

2 Whaz* is sha izom? 

A I baliava sha Is from England. 

2 So you think you mat him at tha wadding? 

A Yas. Wall, I think I mat him, I passad by thaiz 
oificas, I sau thaiz oificas, and that is whaza I mat him. 

Q Thosa aza tha oificas of Voztax? 

A Ko, tha off leas of Euzo Bank. ii^!>'f* 

2 Doas Don Fzasaz own Euzo Bank? Is ha affiliatad 
with than? . v ,' ■ ?. ...^ • -^ *" -. .• 

A ^a is affiliatad with tham. 

Q Is Eznia Hillaz affiliatad with Euzo Bank? 

A I don't think so. 

2 Buzgass, do you think ha is affiliatad with Euro 
Bank? ' '"*' '■» " a 

A Yas. Ha has an offica thaza. so--I don't know what 
his position is. 

2 Did you do any buslnass whlla you waza in Cayman 
Islands? " -' " ••^ . .'J ' •' ' 



A Yas. 



t*f 



2 Ralatad to Tziad Amazioan Cozpozation? 
A Yas. 

ft Hhat kind of buslnass did you do? ^' ' 
A I was on tha phona about six to aight houzs a day 
taking caza of pzoblams in Salt Laka and azound tha U.S. 



WNcmriE 



543 



NAHE: 
1991 
1992 
1993 
1994 
1995 
1996 
1997 
1998 
1999 
2000 
2001 
2002 
2003 
200M 
200S 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 
201 1 
2012 
2013 
201U 
201S 






HIR035000 ■2ja3»! d',^^.,*: 'J s .^ PAGE 82 

S Did you do any financial transactions while you 
wars down thaca? 

A No. Spant a lot oi nonay. 

e On hotals? 

A Personal nonay on hotals and maals. a lot of 
snorkaling. That probably shouldn't ba on tha record. 

e I have docusant <42S. The docuitent begins on >425 
and is titled ''Triad American Corporation Haiver and 
Unanimous Hritten Consent of Shareholders.'' 

Let ae direct your attention to pag^ *«26. The last 
''whereas'* clause stakes a reference to an additional «10 
Million U.S. loan to Adnan Khashoggi. and then it says ''for 
utilization in connection with aarketing activities to be 
carried out by Adnan Khashoggi directly or through a 
controlled entity, which entity sight ba Trivert 
International, which activities axe deemed to TAC. 

So you knew what marketing activities were referred 
to haze? 

A No. No. 

e X take it this «10 million loan is the loan to 
which you previously zaferrad you have seen mentioned in 
documents but you don't know whathez this loan actually took 
plaea? 

A From tha standpoint of Tziad Amaziean Corporation, 
we have no evidence that it did. 






544 



NAME: 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
202<t 
2025 
2026 
2027 
ad 28 



JIMSIOED, •;•;..,;:., 



HIR03S000 
2 
Coipoiation which would indicate it actually took place? 

A And I have asked the Khashoggis and Mr. Ftaser if 
this loan was ever made< and they said no. 

2 They have actually said it was not made? 
A They claim it was not made. 
2 Who did you say you asked, you asked the 
Khashoggis? 

A I asked Essam Khashoggi, I asked Emanuel Floor, I 
asked Tatiq Kadri, who were the board of directors at the 
time. I asked Don Fraser. They all said no. 

HR. EGGLESTOM: Oii the record. ['' 
'' ." * * (Discussion oif the record.] " ^ ."" 



mmmii 



545 



vmmii 



HIR035000 IBKy'l fi VV^8_hL jt*GE 8<4 

RPTS DOTSOH 
DCHK PARKER 

BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

S I have here a number, 1233. 1233 appears to be a 
draft of an agreement. Uhen is the first time you saw this. 
if you recall? 

A I don't Know if I have ever seen this draft other 
than when ua produced the documents, but it looks like some 
documents I would have seen around narch--or excuse me. Nay, 
April or May. 

2 Yes. probably uhen this was all-- 

A Yes. 

Q Let me just ask you whether you have any knowledge 
of some of the deletions. Paragraph A on page 1233 has a 
sentence--the second sentence has been marked out. ''He may 
also have been a member of the Board of Directors of certain 
subsidiary corporations of Triad American corporations . ' ' 

Do you know was Fraser ever appointed a member of 
the Board of Directors of any of-- 

A No. Wall, Z know that ha wasn't. 

2 You know he was not? 

A That is right. 

2 Was Earnest Millar aver appointed a member of the 
Board of any of the subsidiary corporations? 

A No. 






546 



NAME : 
20SU 
205S 
2056 
2057 
2058 
2059 
2060 
2061 
2062 
2063 
206U 
2065 
2066 
2067 
2068 
2069 
2070 
207.1 
2072 
2073 
20714 
2075 
2076 
2077 
2078 



\immm 



HIRO3S000 "^''jLiiOiJsrfrii'**^^ ®^ 

2 Ivan Burgess? 

A No. 

2 599. This document, the first page of which is 
numbered 599, is a collateral assignment. I have only one 
question about this, and that is on page 606. It reflects a 
transaction, a transfer of shares of stock from Triad to 
Sarsuati International on March 10, 1986. Then immediately. 
apparently from Sarsuati International to Vortex, do you 
know the reason it was transferred from Triad to Sarsuati, 
then to Vortex, and not directly to Vortex. 

A No. 

2 Did you have any role in the preparation of these? 

A No, I did not. 

2 But this is a transfer of Triad International stock 
as opposed to Triad American stock--I'm sorry. It is a 
transfer of Triad American stock by Triad International to 
Trivert . 

A I have no knowledge of that. 

2 On page 72. the only question I have on this, the 
first pa9« of which reads, ''stock pledge agreement,'* page 
78. it is signed by Vortex Finance SA by — and does the 
signature appear to be the signature of Donald Fraser? 

A Yes. It looks like it. 

2 Vou are not certain, but it appears. 

A Yes. 






547 



NAME : 
2079 
2080 
2081 
2082 
2083 
208(4 
2085 
2086 
2087 
2088 
2089 
2090 
2091 
2092 
2093 
2094 
2095 
2096 
2097 
2098 
2099 
2100 
210 1 
2102 
2103 



HIR035000 



mm hnm^ii 



AGE 



86 



2 This IS a document which reads ''Unconditional and 
Continuing Guarantee'' across the top. Let me Dust ask you, 
'•Does Triad American Corporation have outside auditors as 
uell as your own internal staff? 

A Ue have had, yes. 

2 In 1986 did you have outside auditors? 

A Ue had no one doing actual work for us in 1986. 

2 In 1985, did you have outside auditors? 

A Yes. 

2 What is the reason you had outside auditors in 
1985, but none in 1986? 

A We didn't pay them in 1985. 

2 So they ceased working for you? 

A Uell, not exactly. They just won't issue the 1985 
audit reports until we paid them the fees, nor would they 
complete the audit. However, we still had a relationship 
with them where we could ask then questions if they were 
questions . 

2 Who were the outside auditors? 

A Arthur Anderson. 

2 You worked with their office in Salt Lake City? 

A Yes . 

2 Did they ever complete the audit report for 1985-- 

A Ko. > ■ 

2 --and certify it? 



oHWssra 



548 



KAHE 

210t4 
2105 
2 106 
2107 
2 108 
2 109 
2110 
2111 
2112 
21 13 
21 1M 
2115 
2116 
21 17 
21 18 
21 19 
2120 
2121 
2122 
2123 
212U 
2125 
2126 
2127 
2 128 



HIR035000 



No. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 87 



2 Was Arthur Andarson working as your outside 
auditors in 198i4? 

A Yes. 

2 Did they do a certified report in 198'(? 

A Yes. 

2 I take it no report was done for 1986 or at least 
none has been dona yet. 

A Ho. 

2 Will one be done? 

A I doubt it. 

2 I don't think I have any other questions about 
this. 

If you can look at page ■42. page («2 is a signature 
page for this document dated March 20, 1986. Who has signed 
on behalf of Triad Anerican Corporation? 

A It looks like Be. 

2 Is that you? 

A That is a*. 

e Okay, senior viea president. 

Page H3 . obviously the signature of Triad American 
Corporation is you. Who has signed on behalf of Triad 
International Cotpozation. if you know? 

A It looks like Essam Khashoggi's signature. 

2 Essam? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



549 



MAHE : 
2129 
2130 
2 13 1 
2 132 
2 133 
2 134 
2135 
2136 
2137 
2 138 
2139 
21U0 
2 mi 
21U2 
2 143 
2 144 
2145 
2 146 
2 147 
2 148 
2 149 
2150 
2151 
2152 
2153 




U8j 



PAGE 



88 



HIR035000 

A Essara, E-S-S-A-M. 

2 I don't believe this document at least gives his 
position with Triad International Corporation. Do you knou 
what position he had with Triad International Corporation? 

A No, I don't. 

2 This is Document Number 86. First, let me :ust ask 
you. At the top in the address section, there is a 
reference to Fraser, Millar and Burgess, care of Jeffrey W. 
nangum, listing an address in Salt Lake City. Who is Mr. 
Hangum . 

A Mr. Hangum is an attorney in Salt Lake City. 

2 Do you knou which firm he is with? 

A Yes. 

2 Which firm is that? 

A Prince, P-R-I-H-C-E, Yeates, Y-E-A-T-E-S and G-E-L- 
D-Z-A-H-L-E-R. 

2 In the middle of this document--I will just read 
this sentence: ''The claims hereby waived are those based 
on possible breaches of fiduciary duty as a result of the 
Vortex directors hereafter taking otherwise lawful actions 
to cause Triad American Corporation to honor and comply with 
any agreements, notes, instruments or undertakings to which 
it is a party, in connection with a <2 1 million loan 
previously made to Triad American Corporation by Sarsuati 
International, in which the rights of Sarsuati had been 




550 



NAME: 
21514 
2155 
2156 
2157 
2158 
2159 
2160 
2161 
2162 
2163 
2164 
2165 
2166 
2167 
2168 
2169 
2170 
2171 
2172 
2173 
217U 
2175 
2176 
2177 
2178 



HIR035000 



ONWSSlfiED 



assigned to Vortex, and in connection with a «9 million loan 
iron Uro to Triad American Corporation to be made at or 
about the same time as this letter is executed, and a $10 
million loan anticipated to be made by Vortex to Adnan 
Khashoggi and to be guaranty by Triad American 
Corporation . ' ' 

Let me just ask you: this makes reference to a loan 
made in the amount of *2 1 million Triad American Corporation 
by Sarsuati International. Has there ever a loan made by 
Sarsuati to the Triad American Corporation? 

A Ho. 

C There was a loan made to Adnan Khashoggi in the 
amount o£ %2^ million secured by Triad American? 

A I believe three loans were made. 

2 Which totaled «2 1 million. 

A Yes. 

2 This reference to the «21 million loan made by 
Triad American Corporation — 

A Is incorrect. 

2 --i« incorrect. 

A That is incorrect. 

2 Hhen is the first time you saw this document, if 
you recall? 

A I probably saw it in March. 

2 Around the time that it was executed. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



551 



HAKE 

2179 
,, 2180 
2181 
2 182 
2183 
218U 
2185 
2186 
2187 
2188 
2189 
2190 

2192 

2193 
.> 2194 
2195 
... 2 196 
2197 
2198 
2199 
2200 
2201 
2202 
2203 



HIR035000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 90 



A I don't recall a specific date, though. 

2 This document I find a little confusing. This is a 
document in uhich Triad American Corporation waves claims it 
might have as against Vortex directors on behalf of a loan 
uhich actually Triad American did not receive; is that 
correct? 

A That is correct. 

2 I suppose it did receive part of the «9 million 
loan which is referred to. 

A Yes, it did. 

2 4s to the *\0 million loan, that was also not a 
loan which Triad American Corporation was going to receive. 

A That is right. 

MR. BAIO: This documentation talks about it being 
anticipated, made. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Right. I should-- 

THE WITNESS: Which wa have no reference to it ever 
having been made by — 

riR. EGGLESTOH: Do you know the reason why this 
document was executed? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. I think it was executed in 
conjunction with the Vortex, and your own people disengaging 
from the management and wanting to protect themselves from 
any liability which they may sea coming because of their 
failure to fund additional monies to Triad Corporation. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



552 



Hunz 

220U 
2205 
2206 
2207 
2208 
2209 
2210 
221 1 
2212 
2213 
221it 
2215 
2216 
2217 
2218 
2219 
2220 
2221 
2222 
2223 
22214 
2225 
2226 
2227 
2228 



HIR035000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 91 



BY MR. EGGLESTOK: 

Q Did you hava any rola in drafting this agreement? 

A Ho, I didn't. ■ 

2 Co you Know the reason it makes the mistake about 
the *2 1 million loan being made to Triad American 
Corporation? 

A No. 

2 Let me just ask you, I wonder, from your last 
response, the response about the disengagement, this may not 
be significant, but the dates seem slightly off. The date 
of this is March 20, 1986. Had they started--for example, X 
think the very first document I showed you in this docuifent 
stack, the board of directors meetings where Fraser was 
actually elected, was dated March 20. 
Had they started to-- 

A I thought it was actually March 6 was the first. 

2 There were many documents dated March 6. I think 
that the Board of Directors meeting may have actually taken 
place on March 20. 

A Hay have . 

2 Had the disagreements started to your recollection 
by March 20? 

A Yes. 

2 So they started fairly early on. 

A I would say that the disagreements between 



UNCUSSiFIED 



553 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR035000 mini nililll ll ll page 92 

management and the new people started before they came. 

e Do you know how long this decision to bring in 
other people to do the management had been under 
negotiation? 

A Ho , I do not . 

2 How soon or how early prior to they came had the 
disagreements begun? 

A I am assuming that because there was a very hostile 
attitude the day they walked in. 

2 Did you know Fraser, prior to the time-- 

A No. 

2 --prior to the time ha walked in the door 
essentially? It must have been around March 6, I suppose. 

A Ho. 

2 Do you know Miller or Burgess, the other Killer or 
Burgess . 

A Ho. 

2 I just have a couple left, and I will go quickly. 
1120, this is a document which appears at least to be, the 
top indicates it is based on negotiations of April 21, 1986. 
Did you attend that meeting? 

A No. 

2 Do you know who attended that meeting? 

A No . i 

2 Do you know whan you first saw this? 






554 



HAnC: 

2255 
2256 
2257 
2258 
2259 
2260 
2261 
2262 
2263 
226U 
2265 
2266 
2267 
2268 
2269 
2270 
2271 
2272 
2273 
227M 
2275 
2276 
2277 
2278 






HIR035000 <UI « Vb>3 ^W%^>:! Kiabr PAGE 93 

A I probably first saw this at the production of 
documents from our attorneys within the last two weeks. 

2 Do you know who prepared this? 

A No. I don't. I have never seen identification on 
here except there is a reference on the last page to 8919-0. 
which looks suspiciously like an attorney's number they 
would have on their word processing machine. 

S2 They have been known to do that. This makes a 
reference at the very beginning in paragraph A on page 1120 
to ''Vortex shall have no obligations to fund the S10 
million loan or anymore of the *9 million loan. ' ' 

The *9 million loan was the loan out of which 
approximately «1, 760, 000 had been funded. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q The other reference to a *10 million loan, do you 
know which loan that is referring to? 

A No. 

e And is it your understanding that the reason that 
the rest of the 9 million was not funded was the management 
difficulties had arisen and Fraser and Killer were leaving 
the company? 

A That is correct. 

e 9^t<. This is a document which is titled at the 
top — I will wait until you have it in front of you. 

I am looking at 9>(<4. This document, in the end of 



r^ 






555 



HIR035000 



PAGE 



94 



it. 951, 52, 53 through 58 are a ser«Ba» o£ signature pages. 
Is it your understanding these were eventually signed by alJ 
the parties when this uas executed? 

A I would presume so, although I have not seen all 
of the signatures. I would have to go through here. It 
looks as if on subsequent pages people have signed on 
different pages . 

fi Let me direct your attention--the only real question 
I have about this document is on page 9146, the paragraph 
listed M, "'reimbursement and payment of expenses.'' It 
makes reference to Triad reimbursing Vortex Uro for various 
expenses, and the last sentence reads as follows = ''Such 
fees and expenses shall not include any fees or expenses 
incurred by Vortex Uro in connection with a recent agreement 
entered into in April of 1986 by Vortex to advance to Adnan 
Khashoggi . ' ' 

Do you have any reference to the apparent agreement 
that is made reference to in this document? 

A Mo . 

e The other agreenent by Vortex to advance Adnan 
Khashoggi *10 million was dated March 10, 1986. Do you know 
if this is a different agreement? 

A I have no idea. - -' f ■'' ' 

2 You have no knowledge of this at all? 

A No. 



u % \ ri i -^ ij s 



556 



HAME: 
230t4 
2305 
2306 
2307 
2308 
2309 
2310 
2311 
2312 
2313 
231*4 
2315 
2316 
2317 
2318 
2319 
2320 
2321 
2322 
2323 
232(4 
2325 
2326 
2327 
2328 



UNtUSSIFIEB .< 



HIR035000 limi.! M.^adlB EL.U PAGE 95 

e You had indicated beiota. as to the other S10 
nillion you had asked various people ii the loan had 
actually been made. Have you asked anybody whether this 
loan has been nade? 

A I have not differentiated between two different *10 
million loans. I just asked if the *10 million loan had 
been made, and the answer I got was, no. 

e So you don't know whether this is referring to the 
same loan as the other, or if it is different? 

A It may be different, but again, it may be the same. 
I found inconsistencies in some of the documents. 

fi Page 818. Actually, I am only going to ask a 
question about the top page. Mho is Hark Rinehart? 

A nark Rinehart is an attorney for the law firm of 
Parsons, Sehle £ Latimer. They, at this point in time, were 
doing the work for Triad, or represented Triad. 

2 And the documents beginning at 8<45. they ware 
clipped in my version — 

HR. BAIO: 8U5? < : 

HR. EGGLKSTON: SUS. I will ask him about 8M8. 
This is another document that appears to be made during the 
ooursa of the disengagement. Let me just ask you whether 
tha following is a mistake as well. 

The last sentence makes reference to ''with respect 
to the amendment which has been funded, however, TAC agrees 



wmmm 



557 




ssife „ 



HIR03S000 1 £l^li!L.nUV9IB ■*■»■ PAGE 96 
that It shall be repaid according to the terms of the 
promissory note previously executed by TAG, although the 
parties acknowledge and agree that only the actual amendment 
funded plus interest shall be repaid''. 

X assume the reference to TAG agrees it shall be 
repaid, it must refer to-- 

THE WITNESS: The «1, 760, 000. 
BY HR. EGGLESTON: 
2 Yes. But it also must refer to Uro, not to TAG. 
A Just a minute . 

Triad American Gorporation is to pay Uro the 
amounts because Triad American has — 
2 The ''T'* refers to Uro? 
A Yes, let ma see it just to make sure. 

It is to Uro and that ''t'* refers to Uro shall be 
repaid. The note is to Uro. 

2 887, it is titled, ''Agreement,'' at the top. 
Paragraph 1, uhich starts at the bottom of page 887 and 
continues to the top of 888, provides that Triad-Khashoggi 
is going to sell substantially all the assets of Triad 
American Corporation, and this document is signed-- 
A The other page. 

e On page 889 there are signatures. The signature at 
the bottom. Triad International Corporation by managing 
director, does it appear to you to be the signature of Adnan 



mmm 



558 



KAHE 
23S4 
2355 
2356 
2357 
2358 
2359 
2360 
2361 
2362 
2363 
236<4 
2365 
2366 
2367 
2368 
2369 
2370 
2371 
2372 
2373 
2374 
2375 
2376 
2377 
2378 



HIR03SOOO S'l^'l^j' a: V v V'-<!** Si 



A yes. It could be. 

2 At the top of 890 there is a signature for managing 
director. Do you recognize that signature? 

A Essaa Khashoggi, it looks like. 

2 Is that a signature--I an sorry. You had better 
leave that in front of hin. Also Adnan Khashoggi is 
signing. Is he signing on behalf of Elk International 
Corporation or is he signing on his oun behalf? I guess he 
is signing on his oun behalf. 

A I guess. I don't knou. I would have to read the 
document to see if it calls for his signature. 

2 Actually he is a named party on the document. 

Do you know whether this agreement was executed? I 
am sorry--do you knou whether this agreement was put into 
effect? Did Triad American Corporation begin to sell the 
assets of Triad American Corporation? 

A To date it has not sold any of those assets, but in 
terms of continuing the function of the companies, certain 
assets will have to be sold. 

fi But as of nou, at least, it has not yet, or 
obviously nou-- 

A As of today, no. 

HR. BAIO : I think you axe construing this 
agreement as an agreement to sell. 






559 



NAME: 
2379 
2380 
2381 
2382 
2383 
238U 
2385 
2386 
2387 
2388 
2389 
2390 
2391 
2392 
2393 
239(4 
2395 
2396 
2397 
2398 
2399 
2U00 
2401 
2M02 
21403 



HIR035000 



ICLASSIRED 



PAGE 98 



Maybe it is an agreement upon the sale there will 
be a certain distribution of assets, but I am not sure this 
is an agreement to sell. I an. looking at it-- 

HR. EGGLESTOM: I get you. So what you are 
suggesting is that this may be an agreement that li it is 
sold they have an obligation. 

MR. BAIQ: It may be. That is certainly an 
interpretation that can be given to the document. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

2 Do you know when you iirst saw this document? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whether it was near the 23rd oi May or 
whether it was closer to two weeks ago? 

A It was probably closer to two weeks ago. 

2 I just have a couple more questions. Let me ask 
you whether you know of soma other names, whether you know 
some other people, and when I say, no, I am asking whether 
you have met them, not whether you have read their names in 
the newspapers during the last two months or so. 

Do you know a nan by the name of Oliver North? 

A Ko . 

2 Do you know a man by the name of Admiral 
Poindexter ? 

A No. 

S Do you know a man by the name of Mr. Ghorbanifer? 



mmm 



560 



NIHE 

2<40i4 
2405 
2K06 
2U07 
2K08 
2X09 
2U10 
2U11 
2(412 
2it13 
2<41U 
21(15 
21116 
2<417 
2U18 
21419 
2(420 
2(421 
2(422 
2(123 
2U2(4 
2(425 
2U26 
2(427 
2(428 



IHWSSlFiEB- ■■ 



HIX035000 

& Ko. 

fl Oo you Know a man by th« naa* o£ Rlehazd Sacord? 

A No. 

fi Robart Gadd. 

A No. 

S Richazd Gadd. Do you know Robazt Button. 

A No. 

e Oo you know a guy by tha nana of John Singlaub? 

A No. 

2 Do you know Cyrus Hashl%i? 

A No. 

Z 

fi Hillazd tuckaz? 

A No. 

fi Thomas Cllnas? 

A No. 

fi Edwin Hilson? 

A No. 

fi Hllliata Langton? 

A No. 

fi Hava you had any Involvanant In arms tzansactions? 

A No. 

fi Hava you had any involvamant in shipping natarial 



A No. 

fi Do you hava any knowladga izoa youz aaploymant at 






561 



KAHE 

2^29 

2M30 
2U31 
2U32 
2M33 
2((3(t 
2i«35 
21436 
2437 
21138 
2U39 
2i|<t0 
2<4it1 
2it<(2 
2U43 
2I4 4U 
2<m5 
2(|i(6 
2l|ll7 
2(148 
24119 
2450 
2451 
2452 
2453 






HII1035000 " - — — - « i^ ^-;> s i SLiEJ PAGE 100 

Triad iaazican Cozpozatlon oi azaa shipmants to Izan? 

A No. 

fi Oz funding of tha contrasj 

A No. 

S Oz in Contzal Aaarica? 

A No. 

fi I had savad this foz tha and and lat na just go 
thzough this. I wilj. not zaad this whola thing. I want to 
ba suza you pzoducad avarything you uaza askad to produca 
pursuant to tha — I aB sozzy. I hava ona noza stack of stuff. 
This Mill just taka a sacond. You pzoducad. pursuant to the 
subpoana, a nuabaz of othaz docuaants zalating to othaz 
tzansactions> all of Mhlch waza substantially aarliaz than 
this. 

A Yas. 

e Tha fizst is nuabaz — 

A Lat ■• tall you why thay uaza pzoducad. 

fi Hhy don't you tall aa why thay uaza producad? 

A Thay waza pzoducad bacausa tha sacuzity which was 
givan on tha Uzo nota. and also on tha Voztax nota, tha 
sacuzity that was givan waza sacond lians against vazious 
buildings that subsidias of Tziad Asazican Corporation 
oim«d. 

In oxdaz to gat thosa lians. wa had to go back to 
tha original landazs and gat thaiz — in most oasas gat thaiz 



.\» 






I'', i 



-■ *».?l»?i^v V »• "J 



?:a 



562 



IllflSSIfiED 



KAHE: HIR035000 ¥.1! 2 'S LS 3_r^l> U 1 I ilbV PAGE 101 

2USU consent to put the liens on and what you see here are the 

2U55 notes that represent the first liens, the first mortgages on 

2456 those various buildings. 

2457 Since it impacted, it was related to those 
2'458 documents, ue produced them. 

2459 2 Let me take a look at them. My basic question, 

2>460 uhen I was done, was why did you give these to us? 

246 1 A That is why. 

2462 S Let me take a look at them and see if there is any 

2463 question I want to ask about each of them individually. The 

2464 first is Number 669, 664, 639, 644, 685, 607, 674, 83-83 

2465 seems to be out of order. 

2466 Why don't I take a second. Let me just go through 

2467 the subpoena with you, and then I will be through with you. 

2468 There is an attachment to the subpoena, which is a subpoena 

2469 duces tecum. I will not read everything since it will be 

2470 part of the record. 

247 1 Paragraph 1 makes reference to all materials 

2472 relating to arms transactions and lists a number of 

2473 different individuals and corporations. I take it you have 

2474 supplied everything that Triad American Corporation has with 

2475 respect to that. 

2476 A Triad American has nothing with respect to that. 

2477 2 ''B*' refers to hostages. I take it you have 

2478 nothing with respect to that. 






563 



NAHE 
2H79 
21(80 
2>481 
2^82 
2K83 

2'48>4 

2U85 
2>486 
2U87 
21488 
2489 
2>490 
2491 
2X92 
2>493 
2U9U 
2U9S 
2M96 
21497 
2>498 
2>«99 
2500 
2501 
2502 
2503 



mmmB 



PAGE 102 



HIR03S000 

A Nothing. 

2 ''c'' anti-government forces in Nicaragua. 

A Ue have nothing. 

2 Paragraph 2, I take it, is substantially part of 
this subpoena that you responded to in producing all the 
naterial that you produced today, uhich is all materials 
related to Adnan Khashoggi and various individuals . 

I guess there is another section that probably 
deals with financial transactions and loans as well. You 
have searched the files and produced everything uhich 
relates to paragraph 2. 

A That is correct. 

Q Paragraph 3 refers to passports, appointment books, 
calendars or diaries that relate to Adnan Khashoggi from 
1984 to 1985. 

A Ue have none of those. 

e Paragraph 5, documents sufficient to identify all 
bank accounts and all telephone numbers used by respondent, 
uhich is — 

A He produced those. 

Q — which are documents you produced to us in the 
first 22 pages or so. Copies of all materials provided to 
other law enforcement agencies. I take it you have nothing 



in response to that. 



WSMm 



564 



250U 
2505 
2506 
2507 
2508 
2509 
2510 

251 1 
2512 
2513 
2514 
2515 
2516 
2517 
2518 
2519 
2520 

252 1 
2522 
2523 
252(4 
2'525 
2526 
2527 
2528 



HIR035000 



mumm 



PAGE 103 



2 Because you indicated to ne you had not been 
contacted by other law eniotcenent agencies. 

A That is correct. 

2 All statements, check deposit slips for accounts in 
Saudi Arabia, Switzerland--! guess you have responded with 
documents relating to the one Cayman Islands account. There 
is a second Cayman Islands account. 

A That is right. 

2 Do you have anything-- 

A Ue have not received any documents a'^'^at account. 
We just recently opened it up and the reason we opened it 
up is an account--ue have had cash given to us for 
operations. It has been given to Triad Energy Corporations, 
and it is being funded out of the Cayman Islands as part of 
the purchase--it was originally a purchase agreement between 
Sky High Resources and Triad Energy, who purchased the 
energy assets . ' ' 

As part of that agreement, there was some cash to 
be funded to Triad for that. It was to go to Triad Energy, 
so we sat up an account fox that cash to coma into Triad 
Energy . ' .> ■ 

fi How recently was that account established? 

A It was probably Mithin the last month, maybe within 
the last two months. Very recently. 

e I just wasn't sure I quite understood. Sky High is 



iiUSSffi 



565 



KAHE 
2529 
2530 
2531 
2532 
2533 
253(4 
2535 
2536 
2537 
2538 
2539 
25>40 
25<41 
25<42 
25(43 
25(4U 
25U5 
2546 
25147 
25(48 
25(49 
2550 
2551 
2552 
2553 



HIR035000 



mmm ^ 



AGE 10(4 



buying part of Triad Energy? 

A It was going to buy the assets of Triad Energy, 
which is the stock--that was challenged by some of the 
creditors of Triad, various entities of Triad. A temporary 
restraining order was issued and about two weeks ago the 
parties to that agreement decided not to do it. 

2 Is that account now empty? 

A I believe it is . 

8 Did you have to return the cash to Sky High? 

A Ko . He used it. They are now a creditor. 

fi Do you know who--Sky High is a corporation? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know who the shareholders of Sky High are? 

A No. 

2 Do you know who the officers are? 

A Ko. 

fi Do you know who the operating officers of Sky High 
axe? 

A I think the President is Ron Philips. But that is 
as Buch as I know. 

fi Does Don Fxaser have anything to do with Sky High? 

A I b«llev« he owns stock In it. I have read it in 
the paper. 

fi Burgess? 

A I have no idea. 




566 



UU 



NAME: 
2S5U 
2555 
2556 
2SS7 
2558 
2559 
2560 
2561 
2562 
2563 
25614 
2565 
2566 
2S67 
2568 
2569 
2570 
2571 
2572 
2573 
2574 
2575 
2576 
2577 
2578 



> » jn <, yo • 



i i »• "i Wat C*^'0»«"«T«T^, 



HIR035000 ^ " •— ->' PAGE 105 

fi I suppose just to be complete, when you get those, 
ii you uould send those to us , I would appreciate it. 

The organization chart--you have provided us with 
various information. Ue appreciate that. That was 
paragraph 7. Paragraph 8, documents suiiicient to identify 
all foreign and some subsidiaries, affiliates and various 
other things. 

Ue have gone over the list of bank accounts . I 
take it that substantially identifies the affiliates, 
associates in various subsidiaries of Triad American? 

A I thought we sent you a list. They are all U.S. 
corporations . 

C I don't think ue got a list of the affiliates. 
nR. BAIO: I will double check on that. 
KR. EGGLESTOK: Okay. 

THE HITNESS: There are no former affiliates. 
BY HR. EGGLESTOK: 
2 Paragraph 9 records, of all financial transactions, 
loans involving Khashoggl — you have produced a number of 
docuitents xalatad to that. I take it the documents you 
produced are all the documents . 
A All the documents . 

fi All material relating to so-called International 
marketing efforts-- 

A Ha have nothing. 






567 



KANE 

2579 
2580 
2581 
2582 
2583 
2584 
2585 
2586 
2587 
2588 
2589 
2590 






HIR035000 - PAGE 106 

2 And I have nothing further. 

MR. VAH CLEVE: With your indulgence, I would like 
a brief conference with my colleague. 

THE HITKESS: Sure. 

[Discussion off the record. ] 

HR. VAK CLEVE: Back on the record. 

I want to acknowledge the fact that you have been 
here for sone four hours this norning, and as you have 
testified, you have had a lot of other obligations. I want 
to thank you for your appearance. I have no questions. 

[Whereupon, at 1:15 p.n./ the deposition was 
adjourned. ] 






568 






DEPOSITION OF HENRY SCOTT MILLER 
Thursday, August 6, 1987 

U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 




The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:00 a.m., 
in Room 2237, Rayburn House Office Building, Thomas Fryman 
(Staff Counsel of House Select Committee) presiding. 

On behalf of the House Select Committee: Thomas Fryman, 
Staff Counsel; and Kenneth R. Buck, Assistant Minority 
Co'unsel. 

On behalf of the Senate Select Committee: Henry J. Flynr 
Investigator. 







MO- 



..__-(»- 



Ul 



569 



NAME: HIR218000 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 



RPTS HAZUR 
DCHH 2UIKTER0 

Uheieupon, 
HENRY SCOTT HILLER 
having bean iirst duly sworn, was called as a witness 
herein, and was examined and testified as follows: 
EXAMINATIOH ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COHHITTEE 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 
Q Okay, on the record now. 

Uould you state your full name for the record? 
A Henry Scott Miller. 

Who is your employer, Mr. Killer? 

Goldman Sachs . 

And where are you located? 

85 Broad Street, New York. 

Uhat is your position with Goldman Sachs? 

I am in the investment banking business. 

Do you have a title? 

I am a vice president. 

How long have you been located at the office in New 



Q 
A 
2 
A 
Q 
A 
2 
A 
2 

Tork? 
2 
A 



One year. 

And prior to going to New York, where were you 



located? 



A In Philadelphia. 



UNCIASSIHED 



570 



NAHE: 
26 
27 
28 
29 
30 
31 
32 
33 
3<4 
35 
36 
37 
38 
39 

to 

Ml 
142 
■43 
MM 
MS 
M6 
M7 
MS 
M9 
50 



HIR2 18000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 2 



2 Also investnent banking in Philadelphia? 

A In security sales . 

2 How long where you employed by Goldman Sachs in 
Philadelphia? 

A Approximately--! guess nine years ten years--roughly . 

2 Have you been employed by Goldman Sachs a total of 
approximately 11 years? 

A Yes . 

2 Where did you obtain your undergraduata degree? 

A Vlilliams College. 

2 What year? 

A "71 . 

2 And did you attend graduate school? 

A Yes. 

2 Where? 

A Wharton. 

2 And did you receive a degree. 

A Yes . 



2 And what was that? 



2 And what year was that? 
A '77. 

2 And did you go to Goldman Sachs after obtaining your 
H. B. A. --immediately after obtaining-- 
A I went to Goldman Sachs in '76. 



UNClASSra 



071 



KAHE: 

51 
52 
S3 
5U 
55 
56 
57 
58 
59 
60 
61 
62 
63 

614 

65 
66 
67 
68 
69 
70 
71 
72 
73 
7M 
75 



HIR2 18000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



2 Hhiie you^a student at Wharton? 

Were 
A Ho. I completed ny course work. I ua5--iiy degree 

came in *77 so I had to finish ny paper or whatever--mas ters 

paper, or whatever. 

2 Have you served in the nilitary? 

A Mo. 

2 During the period between college and graduate 
school ? 

A Uh-huh. 

2 Uhere did you work? 

A Morgan Guaranty Trust. 

Q In Ken York? 

A Yes . 

2 And was that fro« '71 to •7«»? 

A No, iron '72 — through •7U. 

2 And what did you do with Horgan Guaranty? 

A I was in consulting group called ''Client 
Finances . ' ' 

2 Hhat did that work involve? 

A Involved consulting with companies on cash 
management. 
. ~ 2 Hhat is your date of blzth? 

A 9-7-i«9. 

2 And your social s ecurity numbaz? 

A 




UNCLASSra 



572 



NAME: 
76 
11 
78 
79 
80 
81 
82 
83 
8U 
85 
86 
87 
88 
89 
90 
91 
92 
93 
94 
95 
96 
97 
98 
99 
100 



HIR2 18000 



UNCLASSm 



PAGE U 



2 Have you yourself, Mr. Hiller, ever contributed any 
money to any individual organization for any purpose related 
to Nicaragua or Central America? 

A No. 

2 Have you ever been involved in any way in raising 
funds for others for such purposes? 

A No. 

2 Do you knou an individual naned John Hirtle? 

A Yes . 

2 That is-- 

A H-I-R-T-L-E. 

2 Who is Hr. Hirtle? 

A He is a security salesman at Goldman's Philadelphia 
office . 

2 And you worked with him in the Philadelphia office? 

A Yes. 

2 Did he report to you? 

A No. 

2 Uhat was youz working relationship? Were you in the 
sane area? 

A He was my partner. 

2 Uhat does that mean? 

A Ha shared accounts and split compensation. 

2 Do you know an individual named Clyde S-L-E-A-S-E? 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAHE 
101 
102 
103 

10>4 

105 
106 
107 
108 
109 
1 10 
1 1 1 
112 
113 
IIU 
1 15 
1 16 
1 17 
1 18 
1 19 
120 
121 
122 
123 
12i« 
125 



UNCLASSinED 



HIR218000 UllULJtUtJII lk>U PAGE 5 

fi Who is Mr. Slease? 

A He is a private individual in Pittsburgh . 

2 Did he serve as counsel to the Scaife iamily for a 
period in Pittsburg? 

A Yes. 

2 Was Hr . Slease a client of yours? 

A Yes. 

2 And was the Scaiie faaily or their foundations also 
clients of yours . 

A Their foundation uas a client, not the fanlly. 

2 Now, did you ever have the occasion to discuss 
Nicaragua or Central Anerica with Hr . Slease? 

A Yes. 

2 Was that on acre than one occasion? 

A Yes. 

2 Approximately when was the first time that you 
recall that you discussed Central America or Nicaragua with 
Hr . Slease? 

A I can't recall except — only very generally can I 
recall . 

2 Do you recall the year? 

A Even that is a guess. '85--'85 I would guess--'86. 
.- 2 All right. Was the first time you had such a 
conversation with Hr . Slease over the telephone or in 
person? 



UNCLASSinED 



574 



NAME: 
126 
127 
128 
129 
130 
131 
132 
133 
134 
135 
136 
137 
138 
139 
140 
141 
142 
143 
144 
145 
146 
147 
148 
149 
150 



HIR218000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 6 



A X don' t recall . 



fi Do you recall the substance o± the conversation? 

A I don't. 1 

2 But you do recall a discussion about Nicaragua or 
Central America with Hr . Slease? 

A Yes. 

2 And there was more than one discussion uith him? 

A Yes . 

2 Describe as best you recall, what was said between 
you and Mr. Slease about Nicaragua and Central America--in 
the series of discussions? 

A Supply that--the contras needed support. That was 
basically--that was it. 

e Uell, did he ask you to do anything? 

A No . 

e Did he ask Hr . Hirtle to do anything? 

A I don't know. - 

2 What was your understanding of the reason he raised 
this subject with you. 

A I know, through the course--assuBa ha felt I could be 
useful . 

S By raising money? 

A Right. 

8 Did he ask you to raise money? 

A No. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



575 



NAME: 
151 
152 
153 
ISU 
155 
156 
157 
158 
159 
160 
16 1 
162 
163 
16U 
165 
166 
167 
168 
169 
170 
171 
172 
173 
174 
175 




HIR218000 llllll.l ll'V XI^IVII PAGE 7 

Q Did he ask you to tall<~€o anyone else about raising 
money? 

A No. 

Q Why do you assume that he ielt you could be useful 
by raising money? 

A In the course oi my business I know a lot of very 
wealthy people. 

2 Did he say anything that specif ically--that made you 
think he had--raising funds in mind, when he raised this 
subject with you? 
A Ho. 

2 Did he mention that he had been asked by anyone in 
the Administration to raise funds with respect to Nicaragua 
or Central America? 
A No. 
Excuse me. 
[Witness consults with his attorney. ] 

THE WITNESS: The context of these answers is my 
conversations with--I was not talking with--my conversations 
with Slease were general--was no--I was notified as someone 
who was in a primary way involved with contra things. Hy 
discussions — you know, were general with John Hlrtle. 
BY HR. FRYHAK: 
Q When you spoke with Ht . Slease were there other 
subjects also discussed In youx conversation other than 



MUSSIFIED 



576 



UNCussm 



HAKE: HIR2 1800(VI llf LflUllll II II PAGE 8 

176 Central America and Nicar agua--the conversations that you had 

177 uith Mr. Slease, that you recall, where the subject of 

178 Nicaragua or Central America was raised in those 

179 conversations, was that just one subject among a number of 

180 others that were covered in those conversations or was that 

181 the only subject covered? 

182 A No, they were--they were never part of a conversation 

183 which was set up to discuss contras in Nicaragua. 
ISU References would have been passing references, in a 

185 conversation about whatever else — other issues somebody might 

186 talk with on a friendly basis. 

187 2 Was this in the context of business discussions that 

188 you were having with Hr . Slease about your relationship with 

189 him as a--as a representative of Goldman Sachs selling 

190 securities? 
19 1 . A No. 

192 2 Or would it have been-- 

193 A Just in passing. I had no real business. I never 
19'4 had business discussions with him, except vary rare 

195 occasions. 

196 2 I thought you indicated he was a client of yours? 

197 . A It Has--it is a minuscula--it was a minuscule account. 

198 Thare was nothing to — to discuss. 

199 2 Is he a personal friend of yours? 

200 A Yes. 



HNtussro 



577 



201 
202 
203 
2014 
20S 
206 
207 
208 
209 
2 10 
21 1 
212 
213 
2 lU 
215 
216 
217 
218 
219 
220 
221 
222 
223 
2214 
225 



HIK218000 



UNCLASSIHED 



PAGE 



S Did that personal friendship grow out of the client 
relationship f or was there sone other basis for it? 

A He was never directly a client. He never — he in the 
structure he has nothing to do uith--had nothing to do with 
the foundation. 

Being an associate with the organization, however, it grew 
out of my association with the foundation, the client 
relationship . 

C And you got to know him through his association with 
the foundation. 

A I got to know him through is association with the 
Scaife family which was involved with the foundation? 

Q Right, in other words, you hadn't Known him from 
school or from childhood? 

A Correct. 

e You had got to know him professionally, and than 
through the professional relationship you became a friend of 
his? Is that a fair summary? 

A That is correct. 

2 And you had a number of conversations with him where 
the subject of Central America or Kicaragua was included in 
the conversation, but it was not the central subject of any 
oonversatlon; is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

2 And he never specifically asKed you Individually to 



UNCussra 



578 



MAME: 
226 
227 
228 
229 
230 
231 
232 
233 
23U 
235 
236 
237 
238 
239 
240 
241 
2142 
2143 
2'4M 
2>45 
2146 
247 
248 
249 
250 



HIR218000 



onmsim 



PAGE 10 



raise funds for Central Anerica? 

A Right--that is correct. 

2 I believe you also indicated you are — let ne ask you. 
Are you auare that he was having conversations with Hr . 
Hirtle with respect to Nicaragua and Central Anerica? 

A Yes. 

2 Mow, did you learn that from Hr . Hirtle, or from Hr . 
Slease ? 

A From Mr. Hirtle. 

2 Are you auare that fir. Slease asked Hr . Hirtle to 
assist in raising money for some organization related to 
Nicaragua or Central America? 

A I don't--I don't know. 

2 Are you auare that Mr. Hirtle undertook any 
fundraising efforts for any organizations related to 
Nicaragua or Central America? 

(Client consults with his attorney.) 

THE WITNESS: There was never — reason I asked the 
question — there was no — there was no occasion of raising money 
for an organization. 

1 did know of a — being asked to raise money in general in 
support of the contras, but an organization was never 
i4antlfled. 

BY MR. FRYMAN ! 

2 Again this information is coming from Hr . Hirtle to 



ONCUSSIFIED 



579 



NAME : 
251 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
25 
26 
26 
26 
263 
2614 
265 
266 
267 
268 
269 
270 
271 
272 
273 
2714 
275 



HIR2 18000 



immim 



PAGE 11 




you aware o± any 
Hirtle to raise iunds-- 

A Yes. 

2 --with respect to Nicaragua? 
What are you aware oi? 

A I am aware of--a meeting in Philadelphia. 

2 Anything else? 

A Ho. 

2 Are you aware that Hr . Hirtle went to Washington for 
a meeting at the White House? .. 

. " A Yes . 

2 Did you accompany him? .. > 

A No. 

2 When did he tell you about that meeting? 



UNCUSSIFIED 



580 



NAnr : 

276 
277 
278 
279 
280 
281 
282 
283 
28tt 
285 
286 
287 
288 
289 
290 
291 
292 
293 
2914 
295 
296 
297 
298 
299 
300 




He told you in advance oi the neeting that he was 



HIR218000 linil I nXVIklkll PAGE 12 

A It would have ^eTn 'som^The around--sometime acound 
that meeting. I don't temenbex what date that was, but it 
would have — he would have — you know, we were partners so Xi he 
left the office, he would have told me before he left and 
after he came back, so it would have been — than that he told 
me . 

e 

going? 

A Yes. 

2 Were you asked to attend that meeting also? 
A No. 

2 Who would he tell you he was going to meet with? 
A I don't remember. 

2 Did he mention any names with respect to that 
meeting? 

A Yeah. 
(Witness consults with his attorney.] 

THE WITNESS: I don't exactly recall. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 Let me try some speciiio names. Did he mention the 
name of Colonel North? . . - ^ 

. ~ A He mentioned the name Colonel North at different 
times. I can't recall him mentioning Colonel North's name 
specifically in terms of the White House. 

2 Or specifically in advance of the meeting that he 



UNCLASSIFIED 



581 



NAME ■■ 
30 1 
302 
303 
304 
305 
306 
307 
308 
309 
310 
31 1 
312 
313 
314 
315 
316 
317 
318 
319 
320 
32 1 
322 
323 
32(4 
325 



HIR2 18000 



UNCUSSIFIfO 



PAGE 13 



(as going to reeet with Colonel North? 



A Right, I don't reraenbet that specifically, the name 
oi Colonel North obviously cane up. 

2 Did he mention Mr. McFarlane? 

A He did not mention McFalane, his nane never cane up. 

2 Did he mention Roy Godson? 

A Yes, but again not in connection with the meeting at 
the White House. 

2 What did he say about Roy Godson? 

A Only that he had been put in touch with hi«. 

2 By whom? 

A By Terry Slease. 




2 What did Mr. Hirtle say when he mentic 
Godson's name? What did he say about he reason he had been 
put in touch with Mr. Godson? 

A Other than that it had to do with Nicaragua, 
nothing. It was — excuse na . Following through on your 
suggestion before. I want to make--if the context nay be 
helpful. I sat about five feet away fron John Hirtle in an 
of«n, no office partition space. So sort of continual free 
flow of information — you know, just back and forth. 
You have been in a brokerage office before? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



582 



Mmim 



HknZ- HIR218000 VIlVLfmiJII ll_|j ?liGt 1U 

326 MR. FRYMAN: off the record. 

327 [Discussion off the record. ] 

328 MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

329 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

330 2 Continue. 

331 . A Okay. 

332 So I have--you knou. lot of fragnentary things which were 

333 yelled across back and forth. 

33U S So one of the fragmentary items was that Mr. Hirtle 

335 mentioned Mr. Godson's name? 

336 A right. 

337 2 And did he say he had met Mr. Godson? 

338 A I don't remember whether he specifically said he had 

339 met him. 

340 2 All right. 

3141 And another item that was mentioned was that he was going 

342 to Washington to meet someone at the Hhite House? 

343 A Right. •" ' ' 

344 2 And at some point Colonel North's name was 

345 mentioned? 

346 A right. ''** *' '---- 

347 2 After the meeting at the Hhite House did Mr. Hirtle 

348 d«scxib« the meeting to you? 

349 A No. 

350 2 Did he ask you to do anything after the meeting? 



UNCIASSIFIED 



NAME 
351 
352 
353 
35U 
355 
356 
357 
358 
359 
360 
361 
362 
363 
36*1 
365 
3«6 
367 
368 
369 
370 
371 
372 
373 
3711 
375 



HIR218000 



A No 



Mmsi 



PACK IS 



e Now, you ■•ntlonad anothar ■••ting in Philmdslphia 
that you p«xticlp«t*d in, I b^littv^? 

A Right. 

fi Mould you d^soxib^ that ■••ting and how you oaaa to 
paztleipata in it? 

A Okay. 
I Mas told that Colonal North Mas ooaing up to 
Philadelphia. I Mas askad ii Z had any paopl^ Mho sight b^ 
intarastad in ■••ting his. This is by John Histla I Mas 
askad. 

S Is that it. I saan vas that h«M th« sukjaet «•■• 
up? 

A light. 

fi Sid you hava any paoplo Int^z^st^d in ■••ting his? 

A No p^opl^ that Maz^ — no, no. 

fi So you didn't azzang* ioz anyen* you knaw to attand 
th« ■••ting with Colonel Nozth in PhlladalthlaT 

A Cozzoet — eozzaet. 

fi But you attandad sueh a Mating? Tou attand^d a 
■••ting Mith Colonal Nozth in Philadalphla? 

A tight. 

fi And Hz. Hiztla attandad? 

A Kight. 

fi Uho basidas you, Colonal Nozth and Hz. liztla 



yNClASSIHEO 



NAME : 

376 

tji*!, -tf., . • 377 

378 
1 
1 37 9 

*> »-,*&•.: . ' 38b 

381 

382 

383 

f.i f- .... ■-'■.■3844 

_».-. *v '-its 385 

386 

vAl6«< *!><;. ■•'=3'Q7 

388 
389 

•;*;>» i,''***. ■ 39 

391 

i" »*-"^ «f ■'*-3^2' 

3^3 

39<4 

396 
397 
398 
399 

*' •' ' 'noo 



HIR2 18000 



ONCUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 16 



attended that meeting? 




earlier and then I promptly iorgot li 

REPORIER: Please spe 
,* r-' > THE HITHESS- 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
2 And^^^^^^Kis spelled? 

A ^^^^^^^^H^Hx 

Q Nou, did you know those individuals before the 
meeting? 



I 
t 



A Yes . 
_ M-.g •• xn what capacity? ' '' ■* 

A They were shared clients--well > X an not suxa that 
^^^^^Hwas a 

As a natter of fact, X am not sure^^^^^^Huas a client a-ti 
that point. Whatever, they were shared contacts of others. 
; 2 'Do you know hou they came to attend this meeting? 
'. ■ A I don' t know. 

S You didn't invite then? i 

■ ■■. ... ,j(,; jj ^c;-. 

. ' A I didn't invite than. 

2 Is it your understanding that Mr. Hirtle invited 

th««? ""~ ■ 

.- A I don't know. 

8 Did Hz. Hirtle explain to you why he was asking you 
to attend that meeting? 



\iNtmssm 



585 



NAME: 

40 1 

402 

U03 

404 

405 

406 

407 

408 

409 

4 10 

41 1 

412 

413 

414 

415 

4 16 

417 

418 

4 19 

420 

421 

422 

423 

424 

425 



HIR218000 



nnnmssim 



P»GE 17 



A Only because I was--I had expressed sympathy towards 
the cause . 

2 Do you recall the date oi this meeting? 

A I do not . 

S What year was it? 

A I don't even recall that, but I am guessing. I 

don't recall-- '85 ,86 . 

Q How long did the meeting last? 

A I uould guess about three hours. 

Q And it was at the MM«Pt club? 

K 
A Yeah. 

2 What did he say--as you recall? 

A He--talked about efforts for the Soviets to 
arm--provide arms to the Sandinistas in the presence of 
foreign advisers, Nicaragua. Described the contra caugo 




2 Did he ask for contributions? 

A No. 

2 You seem very specific in that answer no. Is there 
something that makes you very sure that ha did not? 

A Yeah. 
He--he just did not, emphatically did not. 

S Had you been told in advance that he would not ask 
for contributions? 

A Ho. I was glad he did not. 



UNCLASSinED 



586 



MAME 

1426 
(427 
•428 
1429 

430 
1431 
1432 
433 
434 
435 
436 
437 
438 
439 
440 
441 
442 
443 
444 
445 
446 



HIR2 18000 



CNWsm 



PAGE 18 



447 



^^-^^ 



^' 



2 Why was thati 



A I Mas glad he did not? 

e Yes. 

A It would have made me uncomfortable had he. 

2 Why? 

[Witness consults with his attorney. 1 

A Just would not seem like an appropriate role. 

2 Why not? 

A Hy gut ieeling. That is all. 




2 What did you understand Hr . Hirtle had been asked to 
do? 

A Raise money for humanitarian aid in general. 

2 All right. 
Than you understood the purpose of this meeting was to 
raise money for humanitarian aid: is that correct? 

A Yes. __^_^^^^^__^^^— — ^_-^_ 

w h y^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kf • r • 
invited to this meeting ^nd that is uhy Colonel North came 
up from Washington and spent three and a half hours talking 



UNCLASSIFIED 



587 



NAME: 
U51 
452 
1(53 
HSU 

uss 

455 
457 
458 
459 
460 
461 
462 
463 
464 
465 



HIR218000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 19 



to these gentlemen; wasn't it--I nean that is what you 
assumed; wasn't it? 

A Yes> that is what I assumed. 

Q Hell, weren't you th£n surprised aiter spending 
three and a half hours that ha didn't ask for a 
contribution? 

A No. I was not particularly surprised. 

2 Well, didn't that seem like a great waste of time 
for everybody? 

A People came away educated about something they were 
not educated about before and--I--his role was never billed to 
him as a fundraiser. 

Q How was his role billed to you? 

A As someone who was concerned about getting the story 
across . 



UNCLASSm 



588 



NAMC- 

1466 
1*67 
(468 
(469 
1470 
147 1 
472 
U73 
474 
475 
\476 
177 
• 78 
»79 
480 
481 
482 
483 
484 
485 
486 
487 
488 
489 
490 



HIR2 18000 



DCnN DANIELS 



IINMSIflED 



PAGE 20 




2 Who did the billing? Hr . Hirtle? 

A I guess so . yes . 

e Uho do you lecall? 

A I don't specifically recall, given I had 
conversations with Mr. Hirtle, probably Mr. Hirtle. 

e After Colonel North left, did Mr. Hirtle ask 
^^^^^^^^ifor a contribution? 

A No. 

2 There was no mention oi a contribution on that 
occasion? 

A No. 

2 Has there later to your knowledge? 

A They did not stay after Colonel North left. 

2 They left at the same time? 

A ^^^^^Reit before Colonel North left and 
left coincidentally . 

2 Now did you have any discussion with eithe 
L af terwards about their making a 
contribution? 

A Ko. 

e Do you know if Hirtle did? 

A I don't know. 

2 Do you know if they made a contribution? 

A I do not know. 





ONCUSWii 



NAME- HIR218000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 21 



49 1 

492 

493 

494 

495 

496 

497 

498 

499 

500 

501 

502 

503 

504 

SOS 

506 

507 

SOS 

509 

510 

51 1 

512 

513 

514 

515 





2 Have you ever received any iniotraation of any sort 
relating to whether or not they made a contribution? 
A No. 

2 No one has ever told you a nythi ng about a 
contribution byl 

A Yes. I was told by soneone in passing that 
had made a contribution. 
2 Who told you? 

A I do not remember specifically. 
2 Do you remember generally? 

A I don't remember generally. It would have been--I 
don't remember specifically. It would obviously have been 
someone who--I don't know who it was is the answer. I can't 
remember . 

2 Was the amount of the contribution mentioned? 

A Yes. 

2 How much? 

A «60,000. 

2 Were you told how he made this contribution? 

A Ho. 

2 How did the subject cone up? 

A It was just in passing. 

2 Has the Hirtle who told you that? 

A I don't remember. 

2 What about a contribution b] 




UNCUSSinED 



NAME: 
516 
517 

518 
519 
520 
52 1 
522 
523 
524 
525 
526 
527 
528 
529 
530 
531 
532 
533 
534 
535 
536 
537 
538 
539 
540 



HIR2 18000 



BNCUSSlFe 



PAGE 22 



A I don't knou of any contribution byl 

2 Do you knou of any other contribution that grew out 
of this meeting uith Colonel Korth? 

A Ho. 

Q Do you have any information about any contribution 
that grew out of that meeting? 

A No . 

2 Now, did you ever participate in or attend any 
other effort with respect to raising money for any 
individual or any organization for any purpose relating to 
Nicaragua or Central America? 

A Ho . 

2 Mr. Miller, do you know Roy Godson? 

A Yes. 

2 When did you first meet him? 

A April 1986. 

2 How did you first meet him? 

A I net hin at the embassy in Zurich, U.S. Embassy in 
Zurich. I met him m person then. I had spoken to him on 
the phone, met him by phone probably a month before that, 
March, February of 1986. 

2 What was the reason you had spoken to him by phone 
in March or February of 1986? ' 

A I had been asked to see if I could interest 
Europeans in a program to counter Soviet disinformation in 



UNCUSSIFIED 



591 



imsim 







laifisro 



592 



V 




HknZ- HIR218000 

666 
•• 667 

668 

669 

670 

672 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 28 



674 
675 
676 
677 
678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
68U 
685 
686 
687 
688 
689 
690 



Q Was there any discussion of Nicaiagua ai 
dinner ? 

A No. 

2 Any discussion of raising funds in any way relating 
to Central America? 

A No . 




2 Do you know if any of your friends that you 
arranged to be invited to that dinner contributed any funds 
relating to Nicaragua or Central America? 

A I have no idea. 

e You have no knowledge of that? 



S%«H >(.. ,; 



u 



4 ?-^'.^?f- 



TOSSIflEO 



593 



A 






* 



WNMSIflffl 




wussife 



594 



5.V -i<s^ȣ-^_ 



^ifimsmn 






mmm. 



595 



J/WUMlfi 




77S 
776 
777 
778 



2 At this dinner in October of 1986, was there, tc 
your knowledge, any discussion of Nicaragua or Central 
America! 

A 




2 Mr. Hiller, in advance of this deposition, I spoke 



UNCLASSIFIED 



596 



NAME : 
791 
792 
793 
794 
795 
796 
Til 
798 
799 
800 
801 
802 
803 
80<4 
805 
806 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 
812 




HIR218000 Wiltfl^Jtal ^f^ffcli PAGE 33 
With your attorney about any ffVk^Rents that you had in your 
files that related to Mr. Godson? 
A Right. 

2 Before the deposition this norning, your attorney 
provided to us a group of materials. Are those materials 
everything in your files that you have that relate to Mr. 
Godson in any way? 

A Yes. To the best of my Knowledge, that is it. 

MR. FRYMAN: for the record, I will just briefly 
identify the materials that have been produced. Can we nark 
the inventory as an exhibit? 

Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.] 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

I ask the reporter to mark as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit 1 , a two-page inventory of documents relating to Roy 
Godson which have been made available by counsel for Mr. 
Miller to representatives of the House and Senate Committees 
this morning. 

I The document marked Exhibit No. 1 follows: 1 

xxxxxxxxxx COMMITTEE INSERT **x**«x*x 



UNCussm 



597 



IINCLASSIHED 



NAME- HIR2 18OO0|J|lUt_niJ|J|| II^U PAGE 3(4 

813 BY MR. FRYHAN: 

81M 2 nr . Millez, I have reviewed the natezials that you 

815 and your counsel have provided and I believe everything in 

816 this package is included in this inventory with the 

817 exception of a cover sheet describing the Institute for 

818 International Studies located at 5229 King Charles Way> 

819 Bethesda, Maryland, 208m. 

820 Now am I correct that this inventory identifies all 
82 1 of the materials in your file that relate to Roy Godson? 

822 A Yes. 

823 fi Mr. Miller, have you ever net Oliver North? 
82(4 A Yes. 

825 Q You met him at the meeting in Philadelphia? 

826 A Right. 

827 2 Have you ever met him on any other occasion? 

828 A No. 

829 2 Have you ever met Thomas Dowling? 

830 . A No. 

831 2 Have you ever met Robert Owen? 

832 A No. 

833 fi Xav« you ever met John Poindexter? 
83(4 .' A No. 

835 T S Have you ever met William Casey? 

836 A No. 

837 2 Have you ever met John Hhltheaad? 



UNCLASHO 



598 



NAME: HIR218000 



838 
839 
SMO 
8U1 
8>42 
843 

8U5 
81(6 
847 
8X8 
849 
850 
851 
852 
853 
854 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 
86 1 
862 



^^jinmim 



PAGE 35 



2 Who IS he? 

A A former senior partner in Goldman C Sachs. 

2 And Mr. Whitehead is now an official in the State 
Department? 

A Right. 

2 When did you neet him? 

A In 1987 when I joined Goldman £ Sachs. 

2 Did you have occasion to meet him on other 
occasions through the years? 

A Periodically, yes. 

2 Have you ever had any discussion with Mr. Whitehead 
about Nicaragua or Central America? 

A Ho . 

9 Have you ever had any discussion with Mr. Whitehead 
about Roy Godson? 

A Ko. 

2 Have you ever had any discussion with Mr. Whitehead 
about Soviet disinformation? 

A No. I have never had any political discussions 
with Mr. Whitehead. I will make it simple for you. 

2 Have your discussions with Mr. Whitehead generally 

been limited to matters of finance? 

!e - 
A Yes, purely business. 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Miller, I have no further 



UNCLASSIHED 



599 



NAHE ■ 
863 
86M 
865 
866 
86 
86, 
861 
87 
87 
87 
87 
87 
57 
8 




HIR218000 iliVI.I ll%^IA.ILflV pAGE 36 

questions. My colleague' Mr' 'cflfi^r may have some questions 
at this time . 

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. OLIVER 




600 



mmsim 






UNCUSSIFIED 



601 



NAHE: HIR218000 




10LI6 
1047 
lOUS 
'10 4 9 
1050 
1051 
1052 
1053 
1054 

loss 

10S6 
1057 
1058 
1059 
1060 
106 1 
1062 
1063 



MR. DANZIGER: Don't you think at this point we aie 
getting a bit far afield? Mr. Killer, whether you agree or 
not, IS permitted to have interests beyond his faiiily and 
his employment which have nothing to do with the subject of 
the committee's investigation. 

MR. OLIVER: That is what ua aze trying to 
determine. I will try to be a brief as possible. 

MR. DANZIGER: You are asking him about his 
beliefs, isn't that offensive? 

MR. OLIVER: I an not trying to be offensive. I am 
trying to determine his association with Roy Godson. 

MR. DAKZIGER: He told you several times now. 

HR. OLIVER: Ke also told me earlier that he 
attended two dinners and now it turns out ha has attended 
three. I would like to establish for the record exactly 
what it is all about. 

MR. DANZIGER: Please do that and let's not 
interfere with his position or political beliefs. 



UNCUSSIHED 



602 



MAHE! 

106*4 
1065 
1066 
1067 
1068 
1069 
1070 
1071 
1072 
1073 
107«4 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
. 1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
108*4 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 



UNCUkSSIHED 



Hx«a 18000 yi^iiLH^oifitu "- « 

HR. OLIVER: I will asR tha quttstionx, Counsal. 

Ht. DANZIGKR' You aay not b« abla to bacausa ua 
■ay objact. 

HI. OLZVZX: I undaxstand. That is your right. 

KK. DtNZZGZR: You aza going a tad iaz aiiald in an 
oifansiva aannaz. 

nt. OLIVER > I aa sozzy you aza iaallng that way. 
but I aa tzying to ask tha quastiona that I think aza 
iaportant to this dafosition. 

HR. 0ANZI6ER: What zalavaney deas his yesition on 
disiniforaation with tha Soviats hava to do with it? 

HR. OLIVER: I didn't ask hia that. I askad hia 
about his axpazianoa. 

RR. SANZIGERi Yau askad hia Mhat ha kneiis about 
Russia. ■ - . :■ ' i 

HR. OLIVER) I askad hia what his backgzound Has on 
Soviat disinfozaation. 

HR. ORNZIQERi Ooas that hava anything to do with 
this daposition? 

HR. OLIVER: X den*t knew yat.- 

RR. ORNZIGERi Tha subpoana talks about Cantzal 
Raaziea and Nicazagua. 
-. HR. OLIVER: li you would lat aa ask tha quastions. 
I think you will saa what zalavanea it has. 

HR. SAMZIGER: Flaasa ask tha quastion. 



UNCIASSIHEO 



603 



J i -i «oo 



^0^ 



L09: 



1(A9i 



KAME 
1089 
1090 

109 1 
1092 
1093 
1094 
1095 
1096 
i? 
8 
9 

1 

1 102 
1 103 
1 lOU 
1 105 
1 106 
1 107 
1 108 
1109 
1110 
1111 
1112 
1113 



HIR2 18000 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 46 



lOf 



1/10 I 



10 



BY HR. OLIVER: 

2 In this Soviet disinformation activity m which you 
became involved with Mr. Godson, was the discussion of U.S. 
policy in Central America or Soviet policy in Central 
America and how these subjects related to European public 
opinion discussed? 

A Ko . 

2 It was not? 

A It was not. 




2 But not Nicaragua? 

A Not Nicaragua. 

2 It was never brought up? 

A Never brought up. 

2 Could I ask you about the meeting in Philadelphia 

that you mentioned earlier? I believe that meeting took 

place at the Racquet Club; correct? 

A Yes. 

2 Are you a member of that club? 

A I was not. I am not anymore. 

2 So you arranged for the room at the Racquet Club; 
correct? 

A Right. 

2 Mhen Hr . Hirtle asked you to arrange for the room. 



WUSWfl 



604 



NAME : 

1 1 m 

1115 
1116 
1117 
1 1 18 
1119 
1 120 
1121 
1 122 
1 123 
1 124 
1 125 
1 126 
1 127 
1 128 
1 129 
1 130 
1131 
1 132 
1 133 
1 13M 



UNCUSSIFIED 



HIR218000 IJIlljLfltltjIl ll II fi^Gf^ 47 

did he asK you to airange for a private dining roon or a 
table in the main room? 

A It was not a dining room. It was a private room. 

2 Mr. Hirtle asked you to arrange for a private room? 

A He asked me to arrange for a room. It turned out 
it was not a private room. 

2 Did he tell you what the purpose was in having a 
private room? 

A It was not a private room. 

2 But you said he asked you to arrange for a room. 
Did he tell you what the purpose of the dinner was going to 
be at that time? 

A I don't mean to be nitpicking. It was not a 
dinner . 

2 It was a meeting? 

A Nobody ate. 

Q Did you indicate earlier you were there about three 
hours ? 

A Right. 

e And nobody ate dinner? 

A Ollie is a dedicated guy from what I understand. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



605 



KAME: HIR218000 



1 135 RPTS MAZUR 



?^ 



.< 



1 136 
1137 

1 138 

1 139 

1 mo 

114 1 
1 142 
1 143 
1 144 
1 145 
1 146 
1 147 
1 148 
1 149 
1 ISO 
1151 
1 152 
1 153 
1 154 
1 155 
1 156 
1 157 
1 158 
1 159 



mmsim 



fAGE 48 





DCriH DANIELS 

A The meeting uas held m two separate sessions, one 
uith--one uith--only four of us present at any point in tim« . 
2 So the four in the first meeting would have been 

ind you and Hr . Hirtle and Colonel North and the 
second meeting. ^^^^^^^^^^| instead of' 
A Right. 

2 Did Mr. Hirtle indicate to your prior to the 
meeting that Mr . --Colonel North would not ask for money at 
the meeting and that money should not be mentioned at tha 
meeting ? 

A No, he didn't--it didn't cone up. 

2 Did it strike you as unusual for Colonel North to 
come all the way to Philadelphia to talk to two people? 
A I don't know. 

MR. OANZIGER: He can't discuss what is unusual. 
Why don't you ask him questions that he can answer. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 Your statement is that Mr. Hirtle did not indicat* 
to you that Colonel North was not supposed to ask ioz money. 
A Right. 
T 2 But you had said earlier that it was your--you 
thought it was inappropriate and that is why you thought he 
hadn't asked for money. 



ONCUSSIFIEO 



606 






NAME- 

1 160 

116 1 
1162 
1163 
1164 
1165 

166 
1 167 
1 168 
1169 
1 170 

117 1 
1 172 
1173 
1 174 
1 175 
1 176 
1 177 
1 178 
1 179 
1 180 
1 181 
1 182 
1 183 
1 184 



HIR218000 



fNCUSS/f/fn 



PAGE (49 



A That I thought it was inappropriate. 

2 I think you responded to Hr . Fryisan's question that 
you thought-- 

A Yes. 

2 You mentioned that you heard in a conversation in 
passing that^^^^^^^^^^Lontributed $6,000 to--to what? 

A Towards humanitarian aid. 

2 Towards humanitarian aid? 

A I would--that is not correct. I don't know to what, 
IS the answer . 

2 When did this conversation in passing take place? 

A Sometime aiter that meeting, but when, I don't 
remember . 

2 And you don't reneaber who mentioned it? 

A As I say, it was in passing. 

2 Who else might have known about it besides you and 
Mr. --Mr. Hirtle was not the one who told you, is that-- 

A I don't remember. 

2 You don't remember what Mr. Hirtle told you? 

A No. 

2 Did you ever meet a man named Halt Raymond? 

A No. i 

2 Has the purpose of the dinner in June of 1986 to 
solicit-- 

A Excuse me. I want to correct one thing. It was 




607 



NAME : 

1 185 

^ ^"'^ -■ 1186 

'*"'" ' 1187 

1 188 

" 1 189 

1 190 

rvf '119 1 
\, ' 119 2 
1193 
119«» 
119S 
119 6 
v.^^1197 



UNCLASSinEO 




had 



^^ 



' 1 198 
1 199 
1200 
120 1 
1202 
1203 
12014 
1205 
1206 
1207 
1208 
1209 



HIR218000i,jui.i u > Yii ii II PAGE 55 

not--it was not Mr. Hirtle who told rae about the 
contribution . 

2 You said you didn't remember. ' 

A But--I don't remember who it was, but it was not Mr. 
Hirtle and I remember that because I Knew beiore Mr. Hirtle 
knew . 

e Did you tell Mr. Hirtle that| 
contributed «60,000? 
A Yes . 

2 Did he--he didn't ask you how you knew that? 
A No. I do not recall that. 

Q Bu-t^^^^^^^^^H was--the arzangenents for hin to 
come to the dinner were made through Mr. Hirtle; is that 
right? 

A Yes. 

2 Did you--did you ask anyone else to come to the 
dinner? Did you talk to anyone else about coming to the 
dinner-- 

MR. DANZIGER: You keep on talking about a dinner. 
It wasn't a dinner. 

MR. OLIVER: Well, the meeting with Colonel North. 
THE WITNESS: I probably did, yes. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 That was what you were asked to do by Mr. Hirtle; 
is that correct, to find out ii somebody was interested? 



yNCLASSIFIED 



608 



NAME: 
1210 
1211 
1212 
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12311 



HIR218000 



UNCUSSIFIED 

Yes. 



PAGE 51 



2 Ancl--so you made sone phone calls--just find out if 
people were interested in coming to this meeting with 
Colonel North? 

A Yes, I probably did. I don't specifically recall 
the conversation, but I am sure I did. 

2 And what would you have told these people? 

A I would have said either--it is all--I would have 
said, ''If you are interested in the contra issue and 
Nicaragua, than someone is coming up who has authority to 
speak on it, who is an authoritative source on it. You 
might be interested in hearing what he has to say.'* 

2 How many phone calls did you make? 

A As I say, I don't remember. 

2 Uould it have been five? 

A Probably five or less. 

2 But none of the people who you were interested--who 
you sought to get interested or who you inquired whether or 
not they were interested — 

A P.ight. 

2 — none of them were interested, in fact, enough to 
come to the meeting? 
-V A That is right. 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record a second. 
[Discussion off the record. 1 



UNClilSSIFiED 



609 



NAME: 
123S 
1236 
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12M 1 
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1259 



HIR2 18000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 52 



BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Did you introduce John Hirtle to Terry Slease or 
did--John Hirtle introduced you? Uhen did that relationship 
start? 

A I uould have introduced him to Tetzy Slease. 

Q You introduced John Hirtle to Terry Slease? 

A Yes. 

2 And how did you know Terry Slease originally? What 
was your first contact with-- 

A It uas through the Scaif a Jsl--interest in general. 

2 The foundation interest? 

A It uas not through the foundation. It uas not 
through the foundation. It uas only because he uas sort of 
a background person. He uas not associated uith the 
foundation per se . He uas-- 

2 You discussed uith Terry Slease his activities to 
raise funds for contras in Nicaragua; is that correct? 

A It is correct--uell , it is not--not--really , that is 
not correct, no. 

2 Did Terry Slease tell you that he had gone to 
Washington and met uith Colonel North? 

A No , no . 

2 But Mr. Hirtle did tell you that he had gone to 
Washington-- 

A Gone to Washington, not that he had gone to raeet 



WUSSIfiffl 



610 



P^S^^^I 



NAHE : 
1260 

126 1 
1262 
1263 
1264 
126S 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 

127 1 
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1273 
12714 
1275 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 

,/ '282 
1283 
128M 



KIR2 18000 



uith Colonel North 



DNCUSSIFIEO 



PAGE 53 



S He did not tell you when he returned that he had 
raet with someone at the White House? 

A I don't recall--! don't recall who he said he raet 
uith when he carae back. 

e Well, when he asked you to set this meeting or to 
arrange this room for this meeting, who did he tell you 
Colonel North was? 

A On the National Security Council. 

2 He did not tell you he had net with him previously 
in the White House? 

A No . 

2 '.^ou were not aware of that? 

A I am not aware of that. 

2 And you were not aware that Terry Slease raet with 
Colonel North at any time? 

A I am not aware of that. 

2 Were you aware that Terry lease had solicited funds 
for the conttas from any other persons? 

A No. 

2 Whose names that has not been mentioned here today? 

A No. 

2 Here you aware of contributions from 




"NMsm 



611 



NAME- HIR218000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 5<4 



\^' 



ni'^^ 



1285 
1286 
1287 
1288 



^^j.A-'^ '''' 



1290 
129 1 
1292 
1293 
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1297 
1298 
1299 
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1 30 1 
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1 305 
1306 
1 307 
1308 
1309 




2 Do you know] 

A I met hira. 

Q He IS not a friend or business associate? 

A He wouldn't know who I am. 

S Do youj 

A No . 

Q Hhen this story broke in the newspaper this year or 
late 1986 and early 1978. did it--did you react in any way to 
this by calling Terry Slease or John Hirtle to ask then 
whether or not what you had been peripherally associated 
with had anything to do with this? 

A No. 

2 Vou haven't discussed it with them in--in 
retrospect, or have you? 

A Yes. Yes. I have. 

2 When did you discuss it with Hr . Slease? 

A Well. It would have been sometine after the--after 
the stuff hit the paper. Exactly when, I don't remember. 

e Did Mr. Slease tell you that he had talked to 
anyone associated with this investigation? 

A Yes. 

2 Did he call you--infoE» you of that? 

A No . 

MR. OLIVER: I have no further questions at this 
time . 



UNCUiSSIHED 



612 



HAKE: 
1310 
1311 
1312 
1313 
13 14 
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132(4 
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1333 
13314 



HIR218000 



"Ncuss/fe 



PAGE 55 



HR. FRYHAH: Mr. Buck? 



EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. BUCK: 
e Mr. Miller, I would just like you and your counsel 
to put on the record what you want with this deposition, 
what its future use may be. 

MR. DANZIGER: I would like you to tell me. 

My discussions--with Mr. Fryman and Mr. Oliver this 
morning, they have not given me any absolute assurances what 
would happen with the deposition. My request though was 
that it not be made part of the public record since it is my 
understanding--my discussion with Mr. Miller and his 
discussion with you gentlemen this morning that--this is a 
person who is exercising his rights to associate with who he 
wishes. He violated no laws, offended no one, and because 
of his desire for privacy and protection of his own person 
and others, he would obviously desire that his deposition 
not be made part of any public record, nor any information 
that he appeared to be made known to the media or to anyone 
outside of the confines of this room or the committee 
members li they deem so appropriate. 

If there is agreement on that, I would like to hear 
it. If there is disagreement with what I said, I would like 
to hear that also. 

He is concerned about some of his European contacts 



wssife 



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NAME: 
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1339 
1340 
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1350 
1351 
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1353 
1354 
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1357 
1358 
1359 



HIR218000 



UNCUSmiED 



PAGE 56 



in that he does not want their names to be made public 

because he is somewhat concerned about the extent of 

terrorism in Europe--uhether that is a uell-iound<Jf ear or not 

A 
is unimportant. He is concerned about that and he doesn't 

want to be a person who identifies anybody in a public 

record and have some problem in Europe in a less protected 

society than our own. 

Is that an accurate reflection on our discussion, 
Mr. Fryman? 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Danziger, I indicated to you that 
the use of this deposition was governed by the rules which 
was provided--a copy of which was provided to you in advance 
of commencement of the deposition today. 

Unless directed by the committee, the fact that a 
deposition occurred or the transcript of a deposition is not 
a part of any public record, but is confidential. 

Your concerns that you have expressed will be taken 
into consideration. I cannot give you any absolute 
assurance at this point what in the final instance the 
committee will decide to make public, but your concerns will 
be noted and taken into account. 

MR. DANZIGER: Hell, realistically Mr. Miller and 
tha input of the staff is sought by the committee. You 
understand that and so do I. I would ask--is it fair to say 
that your recommendations, the committee staff 



UNCLASSIFIED 



614 



NAME : 
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1361 
1362 
1363 
13614 
1365 
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1375 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
1384 



UNCUSSIHED 



HIR218000 limial U.I.IIFiril PAGE 57 

tecomnendations would be that his deposition not be nade 
public? 

HR. FRYMAH: Well, there are a lot of — the 
investigation is still underway, and I can't really give you 
definitively what my recomnendations will be until the 
session is concluded and specifically the investigation into 
certain of the areas that were covered this norning are 
still underway. 

So because of that, I really am not able to respond 
to that . 

KR. BUCK: Hr. Killer, I would like to conclude by 
thanking you for coming from New York. 

MR. FRYMAH: I have no further questions. 

Mr. Danziger, I would ask that you retain in your 
custody the group of Godson materials that are identified in 
the inventory which is Miller Exhibit No . 1 . He have agreed 
that it will not be necessary at this time to produce those 
materials to the committee. 

You have made them available to us fox our 
examination and I would ask that you agree to retain them in 
your custody in the event that the committee believes it is 
necessary to consider those materials further. 

Is that satisfactory to you? 

MR. DANZIGER: Yes. 

Would you be able to let us know what the staff 



>ifimim 



615 



(INCUISSIHED 



NAME: HIR218000 IJIllll nilalll 1111 PAGE 58 



1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
139M 
1395 



recommendation is going to be on the--as to Mr. Millet's 
dsposition? 

HR. FRYMAN: ue will agree, if there is a 
recommendation or a decision to make public the transcript, 
ue will agree to notify you of that in advance . 

MR. DANZIGER: When do you think that decision will 
be made? 

MR. FRYHAH: I don't know. 

That concludes the deposition. 
[Whereupon, at 11=20 a.m., the taking of the deposition 
was concluded . ] 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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5 
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17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



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DEPOSITION OF JOHNATHAN MILLER 

Wednesday, September 30, 1987 

U.S. House of Representatives, 
Select Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 



The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., 
in Room B-336, Rayburn House Office Building, Spencer Oliver 
presiding. 

Present: Spencer Oliver, on behalf of the House Select 
Coomittee . 

Ken Buck, on behalf of the House Select Committee. 

Thomas Fryman, on behalf of the House Select Committee. 

Buck Hammond, on behalf of the House Select Committee. 

Victor Zangla, on behalf of the House Select Committee. 

Henry J. Flynn, on behalf of the Senate Select Committee. 

Patrick J. Christmas, on behalf of the witness. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



ms 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



Whereupon , 

JOHNATHAN MILLER, 
was called as a witness on behalf of the House Select Com- 
mittee, and having been duly sworn, was examined and testified 
as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE HOUSE SELECT 
COMMITTEE 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Good morning, Mr. Miller. 
A Good morning. 

Q At the outset, I would like to submit for the record 
the immunity order from the United States District Court for 
the District of Columbia, dated August 18, 1987. Counsel, 
you have examined this and find it to be in order? 
MR. CHRISTMAS: Yes. That is fine. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Miller, could we start by asking you a little 
bit about your background, where you were born, where you 
wwit to school, and sort of leading up to the time you came 
into government service. 

A I was born in 1952 in Louisville, Kentucky. I~,^._^ 



attended Duke University and 



0( tso 

University Law School. I 



moved in late 1979 to Washington to work in a political 
campaign. 

Q Which campaign w^s thTt' 



PCL4SSIF!E9 



ms 



vMimm 



;t 



1 A George Bush's Presidential ceunpaign. 

2 Q What did you do? 

3 A I was his Deputy Political Director. 

4 Q Who was Political Director? 

5 A David Keeng. ' 

6 Q How long did you remain in that position? 

7 A I was with Vice President Bush through the November 

8 election and stayed with him through the transition. 

9 Q Did you have some specific responsibilities in his 
■JO transition? 
•J1 A I handled personnel und^xDean Burch, who reported 

12 directly to the Vice President, Presidential personnel 

13 matters. 

14 Q You mean personnel government-wide? 

15 A Yes. 

1g Q These were political appointments? 

iy A "> Ub»t happens in every transition. 

Ig Q Then what did you do after the transition? 

ig A I became an administrative assistant to Congressman 

2Q Giodling of Pennsylvania, Republican of Pennsylvania, and 
was there until about November of '81, and was asked to go 
down to the Agency for International Development. I went 
there. 

Q Who asked you to go down there? 

A Jay Morris, who was then assistant, then became 



UNCUS&lKlfAr, 



620 



20 

21 



23 
24 
25 



UNOOBSREPT 



1 Deputy Administrator. 

2 Q What did you do there? 

3 A I was special assistant in the front office, but I 

4 spent most of my time working with the new Bureau for 

5 Private Enterprise, headed by Elise Dupont. The duties were 

6 to further promotion of private enterprise in lesser developed 

7 countries. 

8 Q How long did you stay in that position? 

9 A Until January of 1983. In January of 1983, I 

10 became Peace Corps Director in Botswana, Southern Africa, 

11 and was there until December of '83 when I was asked to cut 

12 my tour short by Ambassador Reich and become his deputy, 

13 one of his two deputies in the newly formed Interagency 

14 Public Diplomacy operation. 
,|g Q Have you worked with Ambassador Reich when you were 

16 at AID? 

A He and I would work on projects together, but it 

13 w«a not a day-to-day working arrangement. 
19 Q What was his job at AID? 

A Assistant Administrator for Latin America. 

Q When you were at AID prior to your departure for 

22 Botswana, did you know Rich Miller? 



A Very casually, yes. 

Q When you say casually? 

A AID is not a massive bureaucracy, so you would, 

linn «««iC!ca ' 



621 



1NUH.ISS»l£ir 



1 

2 

3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



especially since I was affiliated with the front office, you 
would see Miller coming in and out because he was Director 
of Public Affairs at the time. He and I didn't work together 
at all. 

Q Had you known him before that? 

A I met him in the 1980 ceunpaign when he was working 
on the press section of the Reagan and Bush Committee, but I 
didn't work with him at all. 

Q What was your duty in the Reagan-Bush — 

A When Vice President Bush was chosen to run for 
Vice President, I ceased to be his Deputy Political Director 
because that job didn't exist any longer, and I became Tour 
Director, which oversaw the President's campaign on the road. 
So I was on the road all the time, and Miller was, like 
everybody else, back in Washington. 

Q How did you happen to become Peace Corps Director 
in Botswana? Had you been a Peace Corps volunteer or had 
any experience in that area? 

A No, I had been in Botswana in 1982 on a private 
sector survey and had been impressed with it. When I decided 
that I had it in Washington and wanted to do something a 
little more meaningful, I talked to Loret Ruppe, Director 
of the Peace Corps, and there was an opening in Botswana and 
among other countries, that was the one that I felt was most 
desirable from a standpoint of ability to do something. I 



UNCLASSIFTn 



622 



ONBCASSCnsr 



1 was very, very impressed and continued to be impressed with 

2 the country, Botswana. 

3 Q And how did you happen to learn about this opening 

4 at LPD? What were the circumstances surrounding it? 

5 A I was back in Washington on Peace Corps business 

6 euid literally ran into Otto in the hallway of the Old 

7 Executive Office Building. He was on his way into a meeting 

8 with the Public Liaison Office and received a phone call 

9 from him, really one of his staffers, I don't think it was 

10 from him, asking if I would be interested in coming and 

11 indicated that I had just started a tour that was to last 

12 until July of '85 in Botswana, and although I felt that our 

13 Central American policy was important, I couldn't pick up 

14 and leave, that would create rather nasty repercussions in 

15 the Peace Corps. 

16 And a series of conversations back and forth, he asked 
\J me to come up — he indicated that — 
^g Q These are taking place in Washington? 

19 A These are taking place in Washington. Come on as 

20 on* of his two deputies. He had a Foreign Service Deputy. 

21 He wanted somebody who could handle especially liaison 

22 with the White House. And I went back to Africa, thought about 

23 it. This dickering went back and forth for almost two months 

24 Q What period of time are we talking about? 

25 A September of '83 until I guess late November of 






623 



1 



ONOFJISSffffiGir 



'83. I can't be more precise than that. 

2 Q Then you decided to come back? 

3 A I decided to come back, which created the chagrin 

4 at the Peace Corps, as well as with my wife. 

5 Q When you say chagrin at the Peace Corps, did she 

6 complain to somebody at the White House? 

7 A No. She did complain to Ambassador Reich. 

8 Q When did you join LPD? 

9 A I think sometime in December, '83. I cannot give 

10 you the exact date. I am sure the State Department personnel 

11 records will reflect it. I would say early December, '83. 

12 Q How many people were employed at LPD when you 

13 arrived? 

14 A That is very difficult to recall, because it was in 

15 the midst of getting off the ground. It had started in a 
•J5 very quick fashion earlier in the summer, I had never even 
17 heard about it, and it was still gearing up — I would, and 
•J8 this is a very rough guess — guess there maybe were 10 to 
•J9 15 people, mostly from other agencies, very few directly 

20 with the State Department. 

21 Q Was John Blacken ther^/when you arrived? 

22 A No. John was DCM trfe the Dominican Republic at the 

23 time. At the time the other gentleman was Robert Dubose, who 

24 is now in the, I think, INR Section of the State Department, 
the last time I saw him. 



25 



624 



1 

2 
3 

4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
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12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
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19 
20 
21 
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23 
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uRcei^afliST 



8 



MR. CHRISTMAS: Could you keep your voice up? He 
is having a little problem. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q When did John Blacken come on? 

A There was a gap. I think Bob got an assignment in 
INR, he left, and there was — John and Otto had discussions 
fairly early, and it meant John would have to curtail his 
job as DCM early. I don't think John came on board until 
spring, late spring of '84, but I can't be precise. 

Q so you were essentially the main Political Deputy 
from December on. How did your duties differ from those of 
Dubose's prior to John Blacken' s? 

A AS you probably know from taking other people's 
depositions, precision was never a strong suit of LPD, 
but roughly, and assignments changed from day to day. 
Roughly. Bob worked more on intelligence analysis, and I 
did more work on outreach, if you wanted to make it very -- 
b^ause he was a Foreign Service officer with an intelligence 
background, and I was a political person who Otto felt 
first and foremost his problem was to make sure that we 
presented our policy as forthrightly as possible but in a 
responsible manner, because there were, without criticizing 
certain people, there were certain people, especially in the 
Public Liaison Office of the White House, who were more 

IMCIftSSIFIFn 



625 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



uRaA^peKT 



fervent in sort of expostulating their interpretation of the 
President's policy and had a tendency sometimes to be a 
little i^ecJcless. 

My first assignment was to try to be a governor on 
certain people in the Public Liaison Office. 
Q So you stayed there until when? 
A August of 1985. 
Q And why did you leave LPD? 

A There were a myriad of reasons. A friend of mine 
told me about an opening at the National Security Council 
which was frankly interesting, and that was to oversee the 
President's foreign travel and to handle foreign leaders' 
visits to the United States. It was over at the National 
Security Council. And so that had some attraction. And, 
frankly, after two years of dealing on Central American 
matters, I was a little -wd«y4 

Q Who told you about this? 

A A gentleman by the name of Christopher Hicks, who 
w^ then Deputy Assistant to the President for Administration. 
Q How did Otto Reich feel about your leaving LPD? 
A He had mixed emotions. I think he felt I had put 
in ray dues, but he understood it. It was a classic case of 
burnout. 

Q And then how long did you stay in that job at the 



NSC? 



UNCLASSIFiFn 



626 



umoBmEP^T 



10 



1 A I left in May of 1986, I think. I guess May of '86. 

2 Q Artd then you went to? 

3 A I went to the Deputy Assistant to the President 

4 for Management position. 

5 Q How did that happen to come about? 

6 A I had already resigned in March from the NSC and 

7 had said that I would be leaving NSC .on my\ finishing my 

8 jobs at the Tokyo Economic Summit, and Chris Hicks /wag. going 

9 on to be General Counsel^ and he recommended me to Don Regan. 
iQ So Regan asked me right after the Tokyo Summit if I would take 
^■j the job. 

■J2 Q Why did you resign from the NSC? 
•J3 A I was not very happy with the managment style of 

1^ Admiral Poindexter. I personally liked John Poindexter, but 

15 I did not — was not at all happy with the way things were 

1g being sort of operated in an isolated fashion. 
yt Q What do you mean by an isolated fashion? 

*a A Admiral Poindexter had a tendency to sort of run 

19 ^Jfe^M' °^ ^ very, very tight compartmentalized basis, and 
thare was no, at least in my area, there was no ability to 
question — I am basically a political animal, and I believe 
in give and take, and there was a tendency in the Admiral's 



entourage, most of them being former Naval officers, to sort 
of salute the flag and/anver question the Admiral. I felt 
like I was in a straight jacket, so I tendered ray 



UNCLASSIFIED 



627 



01R£/6^flW 



11 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



resignation in March. 

Q Who did you report to at the NSC? 

A Originally I reported directly to Mr. McFarlane, 
when he was the National Security Advisor. When Admiral 
Poindexter came on board, in theory I still continued to 
do that, but actually I started reporting to Rodney McDaniel. 

Q His job was? 

A Executive Secretary. 

Q Of the NSC? 

A Of the NSC. 

Q And then you left in — 

A May of '86, right after the Tokyo Summit. 

Q You left your new job in — 

A May of '87. 

Q — May of '87. And that was the day Rob Owen 
mentioned your neune in the testimony? 

A That is correct. 

Q Were you watching his testimony when your name 
w4A aentioned? 

A Yes, I was. But I had — if I remember correctly, 
there are several things that have to be noted, one of which 
is I had already indicated on several occasions that I 
offered my resignation. Interestingly enough, a month 
before I tried to resign, on several occasions, to Ken 



Duberstein, because 



uN^'tfssrrsQ 



ecome readily 



r 



628 



inCIEASSKIEBT 



12 



1 apparent, I am rather candid in my assessments, I was not 

2 happy with Howard Baker's new management style, and I had 

3 ceased to report to the Chief of Staff, and I was reporting 

4 through two different layers to the Chief of Staff. And 

5 for one month, I had attempted to resign, in fact sent a 

6 letter to Ken Duberstein, I was going to resign several 

7 weeks before this occurred. 

8 I was told my resignation wouldn't be accepted. 

9 And then when, two days before Mr. Owen testified, I was 

10 told that Mr. Owen might make these statements, I indicated 

11 once again I would be happy to resign. 

12 Q Who told you Owen was going to make these state- 

13 ments? 

■J4 A I was told by one of the House counsel — White 

15 House Counsel. I can't remember who it was exactly, because 

■jg I had several conversations. 

■J7 Q Had you told anyone else in the White House prior 

1g to that you had cashed traveler's checks for Oliver North? 

•J9 A No. 

20 Q Why not? 

2^ A Frankly, I to this day — I may question the 

wisdom of it^out I didn't ever thing there was anything wrong 



still don't, or improper or illegal. 

Q When you were told by the White House counsel or 
one of the White^Bause counsels that this incident might be 



25 one of the WhitegUoi^jL counsels that this 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 



629 



inCtA$StE»3T 

mentioned, did you mention it to anyone else in the White 
House? Did you tell your superiors about this? 

MR. CHRISTMAS: This is before Owen's testimony, 
right? 

MR. OLIVER! He indicated at the time he was told, 
which I think he said was two days before. Between the time 
Owen testified and the time that he learned that this might 
be mentioned, did you tell anyone in the White House — 

THE WITNESS: I can't recall I did. I remember 
having a conversation with Mr. Culvahouse where he indicated 

11 he thought possibly some people should be notified. 

12 I suggested only the Chief of Staff needed to be 

13 notified, the Chief of Staff. 

14 BY MR. OLIVER: 

15 Q Were they notified? 

16 A Mr. Culvahouse and Senator Baker were, I assume, 

17 within — 

18 MIt* CHRISTMAS: Oon't assume. 

19 THE WITNESS: I had no personal knowledge. 

20 BY MR. OLIVER: 

21 Q Regarding those traveler's checks, I would like, 

22 if I can, to let Mr. Flynn from the Senate ask questions 

23 about that area. 

24 EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE SENATE SELECT 
COMMITTEE 

UNCLftSSIFHEB 



25 



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14 

1 BY MR. FLYNN: 

2 Q The testimony I am referring to now is the public 

3 testimony on television and has now been published by the 

4 government. You said you were present when Rob Owen received 

5 traveler's checks from Oliver North, is that correct? 

6 A Yes. 

7 MR. CHRISTMAS: Are you talking about one occasion 
3 or more than one? 

g MR. FLYNN: That was my next question. 

10 BY MR. FLYNN: 

11 Q How many times did this actually occur? 

12 A To my best recollection, once. 

12 Q This would be approximately what timeframe? 
A Spring of '85, I think. ■ 

Q You received all the checks directly from Oliver 
North. Is that correct? 

A That's what I recall. |' 

Q The review of the traveler's checks cashed by the 
S^ate Committee indicates that you cashed $3300 in traveler's 
checks. Would you generally agree with that figure? 
A That sounds roughly correct. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Are you talking about him personally 
sir? 

MR. FLYNN: Yes. The ones that were actually 
cashed by yourself, that had your naime on it. 



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IS 



THE WITNESS: I am not sure that la correct. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Would it be easier if he went 
through the scenario of what happened? 

MR. FLYNN: Absolutely. Whatever will help you 
arrive at the figure is fine. 

THE WITNESS: For whatever reason, I came into 
Colonel North's office. And I was told there was goin g to 
be a problem in that the next day 




I don't know why we were asked to cash the money, 
but Rob Owen was there, and I thii\)c there was — my recollec- 
tion is that he just said there was too much money for him 



X ne II 
to cash and iell, and 




some refer- 
ence was made, and I can't remenber who made it, to the 
necessity to help out. At some point, I hope we go into 
that. 

But, at that point, I was just handed a group, and 
I don't, think it was divided up in a nice little pile, and I 

lliftf^l AOAirir.^ 



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'weLiis$}?ii 



1 said that I would go to my bank. One of the reasons I 

2 continue to feel that if ^ were improper, I wouldn't have 

3 gone to my bank and signed and counter-signed the checks. 

4 It was such a large amount that I frankly, and it is another 

5 example of why I didn't think it was improper, asked my wife 

6 to sign some of them at our bank. They had a rule at the 

7 branch they couldn't cash over "X" amount, and that is why I 

8 sort of questioned^ A may have received approximately 

9 $3500 or $3300 or $3100, but I don't think I signed or counter- 

10 signed/ I think I actually, I would never get my wife in 

11 trouble^^ but I actually asked my wife to cash some of them 

12 as well 

13 BY MR. FLYNNi 

14 Q What name would she have used? 

15 A Elizabeth Thompson. 

1g MR. CHRISTMAS: That is her maiden neune? 

17 THE WITNESS: She continues to keep the name, 

13 Thompson. 
19 BY MR. FLYNNi 

Q If we took the total checks signed by you, which 
we have as $3300, plus the total we have for Elizabeth 
Thompson, which we have as only $500 — 

A Then that is possible. Apparently, and I didn't 
know about this until recently, I don't remember, I had asked 



25 my brother to cash some traveler's checks as well, who is Scott 



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Miller. ^^^^Hgot more than I thought. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Can I Inquire what you have for his 
brother, sir? ^ 

MR. FLYNN: $500. Scottlw. Miller? 

THE WITNESS: Right. 

BY MR. FLYNN: 
Q It would be Elizabeth Thompson, $500. Scott 
Miller, $500. 

A Right. If you say — I have no reason to dispute 
it. I am frankly amazed it was that much money. I won't 
dispute it. 



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- — -■ ^^ 

BY MR. FLYNN: 
Q j^^^H wasn't in the room at the time you got the 
checks from North, is that right? 
A No. 

Q So just by way of summary, the checks were given 
directly to yourself, you didn't know what the amount was 
because you could only cash so much money at the bank , you 
asked your brother to cash some, Scott Miller, and you asked 
your wife to cash some, and her legal name on the checks is 
Elizabeth Thompson. 
A Right. 

Q So it would be fair to say then the total, your 
3300 dollars plus the two 500 would make a total of 
$4300. You accept that? 

A I will accept it. 
Q Thank you. 

What is your brother's full name? 
A Nilliam Scott Miller the Third. 
Q Thank you, sir. ; ,._ 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Just to follow up on this a little bit, when 
you indicated that you were in North's office and Rob Owen 
was there and this subject cfune up abouti 
^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^H need for money, 
take these travelers checks out of the safe in his office? 



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A He took them out of what is called the safe, but it 
is actually a file drawer that is normally used to store 
classified documents. 

Q Did you know that he kept these travelers checks 
in his drawer? 

A I cannot say for certain I knew before that fact 
Obviously after that I did. y(ihe events of the last 
couple years have been sort of blurry and I can't tell you 
whether I knew before then that he did. 

Q Were you aware that he was dispensing money to 
various people, a stash of travelers checks in the top 
drawer? 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Prior to the day he gave the 
travelers checks? 

MR. OLIVER: I'm asking any time. 
MR. CHRISTMAS: So we are clear on this. 
THE WITNESS: Obviously after the fact I became 
aware of that, but I cannot say I was aware. One always 
!}•■ suspicions and one — but I can't say for sure. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Did you ask him what the source of the funds was? 
A I cannot remember whether — 

MR. OLIVER: Could we go off the record just a 
minute. 

(Discussion off the record.) 



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THE WITNESS: I can't remember whether I asked him 
or whether he volunteered it. That's the only time 1 was 
aware he said it came from Calero. I didn't ask where 
Calero got it. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q That was the first time you were aware of Oliver 
North keeping these travelers checks in his office and the 
first time you were aware he was dispensing these checks, 
is that correct? ',] 

A That is the first time. As I recall that is the 
first time I was actually aware as opposed to what my 
suspicions were. 

Q Why had you had suspicions? 

A Well, I mean, as no doubt everybody who has ever 
come before this committee has had suspicions about Ollie. 
A lot of it was, you would discount because he has a 
tendency to engage in rhetorical hyperbole. If I discounted 
75 percent of what he intimated, there was a lot to suspect 
b»t it was nothing hard and fast. Plus he had an emotional, 
i||kry strong emotional commitment to certain factions within 
the contras, ones I did not necessarily share with him. 

Q He gave you a group of the travelers checks and 
gave a group of them to Rob Owen. 

A That's as I recall. 

Q And what did he say at that point? 



HMfiUAAWWAr. 



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•r.- 



imOEASSffllDr 



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A 1 an not abiolutely certain. 1 think it'« just 
that we needed to get cash to I 

So you and Owen left the office together to go 
do this? 

A I can't remember whether we left together or not. 
I just went immediately, called my wife and said I have 
to go to Alexandria to cash some checks. 

Q Where was your wife then? 

A She was at home. 

Q Where was your brother? 

A I can't remember trtiere he was working at the time. 
He is one of those itinerant government employees that 
move around from point to point like I do. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Don't forget this is going to 
be public. 

THS WITNESS: He is leaving government next week 
to go to the private sector. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Did you meet your wife and brother downtovm? 

A I think I met my brother downtovm, gave him some 
checks and went to Alexandria. 

Q Where did your brother cash the checks? 

A I don't know. I assume — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Don't assume. 



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BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q He didn't go to the bank with you? 

A No. . J 

Q Did you and your wife go to the bank together to 
cash these checks? 

A As much as I recall, yes. ^ 

Q What did you tell your brother when you gave him 
the checks? 

A I don't think 1 told him anything except that I 
needed the checks cashed. 

Q You just handed him a stack of blank travelers 
checks on a South American bank and told him to cash these 
checks? 

A I think a Central American bank. I really can't 
recall. I'm not trying to be cute, I just can't recall. I 
mean at the time — this was so, even though it was the only 
time I ever recall cashing travelers checks, this seemed to 
be so although unusual, not improper that I didn't remember 
until I watched Owen actually saying, recalling the thing, 
b«cause I couldn't remember the details. And I tried 
over the last several months to recall that, although I don't 
have any records. I never retained any records. 

Q But you had been told two days before that? 

A I wasn't told he was going to say anything. All 
I was told was that Owen would say we had cashed some 



nWffi aoc ion 



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You went to the bank the next day. 

No, my nafse has evening hours until 7:30. 



Then when did you get the money from your brother; 
I can't remember if it was that night or the next 



travelers checks and I couldn't remember anything beyond 
that until I watched him actually go through the scenario 
and all of a sudden, a bell went off and I said, oh, yes. 
Alzheimers must have inflicted me at a rather early age. 

Q What time of day was it you met your brother? 

A I think it was early evening, dusk or something 
like that. 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 
morning. 

Q And then when did you give the money back to 
Oliver North? 

A I don't think I gave it to North, 1 think I gave 
it to Owen. 

Q Where did you give it to Owen? 

A I really don't recall, I'm sorry. It could have 
b«en 17th Street, it could have been the Hay-Adams, it 
could have been at Scholl's, I don't really know. 

Q Did you discuss the purpose of this transaction 
with Rob Owen when you left North's office or after you left 
North's office? 

A No, I think he was aware of it. 

Q Did you ask him what it was all about? 



iiyn ncci cirn 



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A No. I think he was quit* aware of it. I have got 
to say for the record, and 1 realize this is going to be 
released, he and I did not necessarily get along. We 
represented two sort of different factji^ within the 

contras. 




He was there to do his duty for Ollie. I don't think there 
was a necessity for any discussion as to what the purpose 
was . 

So you gave him $4300 — 

I didn't give him any. 

Rob Owen. 

Oh, you mean after, the cash. 

Yes . lii--^ 



It was $4300. I'll have to reiay on Mr. Flynn's — 
Do you remember if it was in 50 dollar bills, 
fbndred dollar bills? 

A No, I don't. To me that wasn't really relevant. 
I cashed it, apparently the denominations by looking at the 
photocopies were in hundreds and maybe some other ones I 
don't know if the bank gave it back in the same denominations 
As will become obvious, I am not a detailed person. 

Q You didn't consider this a significant incident? 



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A No, I still don't. 

Do you carry around thousands of dollars in cash 
in your pocket? 

A No, Mr. Oliver, but when this is going from one 
private, from one Nicaraguan to another! 




was near and dear to many Members' hearts on the 
other side of the aisle and I was, I didn't see anything 
improper or wrong and that is why I didn't give it that much 
significance. Still don't. 

Q What do you mean by both sides of t^e aisle? 

^^^^^^^^^^H|^pand very strongly about 
this^ and other Members, Members of Congress felt 
strongly about it^that moderate, on both sides of th^ aisle 
and many Democrats felt 




hould be 

part of the opposition and if they weren't there was no 
legitimacy to it. That was a sort of great friction all the 
tiae between Colonel North and myself. He took the side of 
Calero and Z was chaunpioning the cause of 

^^^^^,__j people he thought were sort of 
wimps, and Ire e p olo gises for the Sandinistas. 

At any rate, I felt that 
was not only just but it was correct, and there was nothing 
improper about it. So I did not — my job was just to get 



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the money 




Q Let's go back^to IXP for a moment. What were your 
duties as Deputy? Could you sort of describe for the record 
what your responsibilities were? 

A Well, they changed from moment to moment. 
There was a job description that sits in the personnel office, 
but that was about as relevant as anybody else's in the 
State Department. Originally it was to be, serve as a 
liaison with the Public Liaison Office at the White House. 
Later on it expanded to working with — the H Bureau of 
the State Department — 

Q would you explain what that is? 

A The Legislative Affairs H Bureau. Later on it 
expanded to working with affairs at the NSC. We would go 
through every few months runups on whether there was going tc 
be funding for the Nicaraguan opposition or not. Later 
on it took — it continued to expand. A lot of it was 



JlUfl 



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also just serving, since Otto was so involved in going out 
and speaking on Donohue or Nightline or whatever, was 
actually also serving as the front office liaison with a 
good deal of the rest of the staff. Had to spend a lot of 
time with people putting speakers out. And also in, on the 
mashed potato circuit, these were government speakers. 
It took on a myriad of duties and they kept continuing to 
expand. ' ta'.v ■ toe; .^o..:r,,' '; ^, 

Q Here you in charge when Otto was out of the 
office? - ■ ^ 

A No. " "..' tor ; 

Q Who was? 

A Well, nine times out of ten it was, unless 
DuBose or Blacken were out, and they were always — they 
were always the principal deputy, I was never considered 
principal deputy, so only unless both Otto and DuBose and 
Blacken were gone would I be in charge. 

Q Was DuBose still there when Blacken ceune on? 

A No, there was a gap. t 4" >' 

Q Was DuBose a career Foreign Service officer? 

A Yes. 

Q And Blacken was a career Foreign Service officer? 

A Yes. Still is. 

Q Besides yourself, were there any other Schedule Cs 
or political employees besides you and Otto Reich in LPD? 



644 



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28 
There 



A There were one or two a e hedul ed from AID. 
were no other Schedule Cs on the State Department — 

Q Who were the Schedule Cs? 

A One was a woman named Janis Barbieri, who handled 
mostly bookings of Administration '■ a books and the media. 
And another was Mary Catherine English, who was an editor. 
She mostly edited the myriad of publications LPDD. I don't 
think, but I can't be bound by it, there were any other 
Schedule Cs. ! 

Q Vlhat was your working relationship with Oliver 
North? 

MH. CHRISTMAS: What point in time, sir? 
MR. OLIVER: From the time he came to LPD. 
THE WITNESS: I didn't know him at first, didn't 
meet him until sonetime in early '84. 

Originally we — I didn't really get to know him 
at all until at some point we started working on another 
legislative runup «rtiere NSC pulled together people from 
DoO, State and everybody else and they would say we are 
going to go to the Hill, we need these documents, things 
like that, and we were called on to be the g e ft e jn ex . 
BY MR. OLIVER: *^ 

Q Which documents are you talking about? 

A These are mostly, you know, things that would be 
in the press, publications that we had pulled together. 



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29 



We would put together a book to rebuttals proponents were 
making, anticipatory stuff, things like that. We were 
always quicker in responding than the public affairs section 
of the State Department. In fact, the Legislative Affairs 
people, people like Ed Fox, thought we were so good we 
were just, they said this is what we need, go out and get 
the information. That is when I think — 

Q What kind of information? 

A You know, how many prisoners are kept in 
Sandinista prisons, how many arms have been delivered, 
what is the present, best estimate, which is very difficult 
because we kept getting different answers of Sandinista 
troop strength, things like that. That is when I think I 
first started working with North. ,( 

The reason I ended up spending a little more time with 
North than I ever anticipated is because rather early on in 
'84 Arturo Cruz, Jr., and I beceune good friends, and 
Arturo felt that the former Seuidinistas that were part 
of the opposition were getting very short shrift from the 
Administration and they were bending over backwards to 
support people like Enrique Bermudez and Calero. And I ended 
up sort of going hat in hand and arguing with Ollie a lot. 
That is when we first started. 

Q Do you remember who introduced you to Oliver 



North? 



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A I think it may have been' Otto when we yere over at 
the Old Executive Office Building for a meeting with Faith 
Whittlesey or Walt Raymond or somebody. It was a casual 
introduction. 

Did you participate in the regular meetings of 
the Central American Public Diplomacy Working Group at the 
NSC? 

A I keep hearing that name venting around, I'm not 
sure vhat that is. " :, , 

Q That's the meeting that took place on a weekly 
basis in Walt Raymond's office. 

A If that's what it was called. We never called it 
that. I would go to Walt's almost every week, yes. 

Q Who else participated in those meetings? 

A It was a sort of circular door. Sometimes he 
would get drop bys by Constantine Henges literally. Some- 
times he wouldn't show up at all. Sometimes Ollie would 
show up for a few minutes and take off. Usually it ended 
Wft being Halt, myself, occasionally John Blacken, Otto, 
occasionally some people from USXA. That would be about it. 

Q Were there people there from CIA there also? 

A There may have been from time to time, but not on 
a regular basis. I can't preclude they were there, but 
they were not what I call regulars because public diplomacy 
operation was not held in high esteem by people like 



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wciw»t6 



Q Old he participate in those meetingi? 
"A He may have been there on one or two occasions. 
I can't preclude it. I don't want a perjury charge thrown 
at me. I don't remember. 

Q What was the purpose of those weekly meetings? 

A It was primarily to coordinate — there was a 
great deal of frustration with the ability — we thought 
we were getting our heads handed to us on a platter by what 
we r e oeiv ed — originally it was more involved with El 
Salvador than Nicaragua, later on by the Sandinistas who. 
were very, very good at public Infbraation. 

There was a frustration at the White House that 
we weren't getting the — countering it significantly 
enough and the result was frustration on the part of Aobassa- 
dor Reich. The State Department had a tendency to work in a 
Muilahsef-llke environment. So the purpose of the meetings 
was to primarily klbutz because Walt Raymond, there was no 
set agenda. Halt Raymond was the international public 
diplomacy person at the NSC. Walt had other meetings that 
were just the seuoe with different parts of the State Department, 
/ab&ssador HeUman from the Political Bureau of the 
State Department would meet with Walt every week on other 
parts of things, whether it was Radio Marti or something goii 
on in^^^^^^^^^H So it wasn't unique, we weren't the 






648 



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only group meeting with them. 

Q This group you participated in was primarily 
directed towards Central America, is that correct? 

A Yes. Yes. 

Q When did you first meet Walt Raymond? 

A Early '84. I can't be more precise than that. 
It was right after the Christmas holidays I would think. 
It was kind of lost time when I first came on board. 

Q What was his job? ' 

A Special Assistjuit to the President for something, 
something like international communications. 

Q Were you aware of any connection he had with any 
intelligence agencies? 



I was aware he was a former employee of the 



CIA. 



How did you become aware of that? 

I think he told me. 

What did he tell you he had done in the CIA? 

I don't know. To this day I still don't know. 
We are indoctrinated early on on a need to know basis. 
If I'm not told I don't ask. I didn't have any idea. I 
later worked with Walt, he was a good friend and I still 
don't know what he did in the Agency. 

Q In these meetings did you discuss the declassifica- 
tion of intelligence documents, review some public diplomacy 



IIMP-I flSSmEQ. 



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activities? 



A That would come up from time to time. I didn't 
normally take the lead in that. That was mostly a conversa- 
tion, conversations that would occur between Otto and 
different people of the NSC, and different people at the 
State Department for that reason. He just didn't work 
solely with the National Security Council. 

Q Were those discussions at that meeting about 
declassification documents with representatives of the CIA? 

A I know Otto may have had conversations with them. 
He did on the phone, on the secure phone. That infamous 
phone Chairman Fascell brought up. Conversations occurred 
all the time about that. And they were with Agency people 
because the Agency had to authorize those things. But I 
can't preclude that they weren't discussed with Agency 
personnel in Walt Raymond's office at a certain time. They 
were discussed in all sorts of manner, always in a secure 
manner. 

Q And were these — did these conversations and 
discussions result in the declassification of documents 
and information? 

A I think they did, but I cannot tell you right 
now that thlse docximentb was done by — there were for 
instance — 

Q I am just asking in a general sense. 



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mmm 



34 



A Yes. There were others the ultimate — the 
Public Diplomacy Office ultimately had printed, included an 
awful lot of declassified information. Mostly — as an 
example, aerial photos of military installations in 
Nicaragua. 

Q Are these documents or this information, would the 
purpose be to be included in the LPD publications, op ed 
pieces? 

A 
instance, you could show a graphic exeunple of Md^helicop- 



To be released on the press generally. If ,^, for 

4/ ^^ 



MWh« 



ters, and this is a possible hypothetical, on the runway of 
Punta Hu€|be, that was the type of thing we felt, and we 
were the big proponents of declassifying as much as 
possible. There is a tendency within the intelligence 
community they didn't want any of that stuff released. We 
would push for that sort of thing. And if it was — 
- M a rt felt it would be better if it were released to the 
networks after it had been fully declassified, that might 
hmv a better impact in a certain case than publications. 
Publications were not the sole source. 

Q How did you release these documents once they had 
been declassified, this information? ^^ 

A ;^irbassador Reich or Ambassador BlaMkai or IXiBose oculd tell 
you better, I didn't handle it. That was almost 
exclusively, especially when John got on board, John's 



unci assiiL'ia 



651 



QtdftiESiffiBt' 



35 



end mas 
-nd lA 



ml8 ^ 

2 

•.-,.■■•.'. 3 

.■3c »j.':4,! 

- ■ ■ , •» r '^ 

•';• i. •.«.• 

7 

9 

i- 10 
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bailiwick. 

Q Was this information made available to Mark 
Richard? 

A I think it was. I don't know why it wouldn't be. 

Q What was Mark Richard's job there? 

A Well, when he first started with us he was a 
Colonel in the Air Force, and I cun not sure where he came 
from, he did have an intelligence background as well as a 
pilot. Later he beceune consultant after he retired from 
the Air Force. He worked extensively with the press. 



•x^^'t li*^ 



t£;i.-> .1 . -i ■/', 3' . ■■ 1 :■ ', = 

UNCI A.<(.<(iF;pn 



652 



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inoEASsmiBT 



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Q When you say that Mark Richards briefs the 
press, what was the format in which he did that? 

A I don't ^no\<-. He was sort of secretive about 
what he did, but usually he would have them into his office, 
which is on the fifth floor of the State Department, and 
talk to then, but I was never with or privy to one of those 
meetin9S . 

Q People from the Bureau of Public Affairs were 
informed of these briefings? 

A I really don't know. We did talk about an awful 
lot to ARA, but we didn't talk as much to public affairs. 
Public affairs was not really, especially if you take 
public affairs is divided into two different universes, 
-end the spokesman A<U^ wMatk was worried about the minute- 
by-mlnute activity. Chuck Redman, or whatever, and then 
there was the bureau that had a tendency to do traditional 
things, put speakers on the road, work on SALT agreement 
■■t«rial, things like that, and they frankly thought of us 
•• an unneeded operation, and the communications, to be 
frank, batwaen Public Affairs Bureau and us ware not 
necessarily always clear. 

We felt that our naad was to communicate more on 
substance with the ARA Bureau. 

Q Isn't it true that ARA was specifically excluded 
from Central American working group on public diplomacy 



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ttKM/t/»$tf%6f 



37 



in the White House? 

A No, because they were invited. They chose in 
many cases not to attend, but they were invited. 



Who was invited? 



-)^ 



A I know for one that Dick CjIJuilII was invited, 
and he was at that time Deputy Assistant Secretary of State 
for Inter-American Affairs for congressional activities, 
and we worked very, very closely with the Public Affairs 
Office of ARA, with Gilbert Ii»4i***4-1 ," and Greg Lagana and 
those people. I probably spent more time in Greg Lagana 's 
office than I did in my own. 

Q Were you involved in the arrangement of consulting 
contract for Mark Richards Associates? 

A I don't know what you mean specifically about 
that, because I didn't handle, although I will show up on 
some of the Frank Gomez contracts as whatever that thing 
is called, representative, that was always handled by our 
administrative people. I was aware that Mark Richards and 
Associates had a contract, but I didn't handle the actual 
work. That was done with our administrative people, whether 
it was Matthew Freedman or Frank Gardner, and then it went 
to contracts and then it went to the legal people, but I 
had a general knowledge. 

Q Were you aware that Mark Richards was negotiating 
to retire and become a consultant while he was on detail 



»• 1 



imgkaflAM 



Taiffl^P- 



654 



wcrasHfiegT 



38 



1 to LPD? 

2 A I would probably say yes. 

3 Q Did you ask anyone whether or not that was an 

4 appropriate thing for him to be doing? 

5 A Well, roost of the discussions — I'm not trying 

6 to shift the blame — were held with Ambassador Reich, but 

7 I also assumed the reason we had a plethora of lawyers and 

8 contract people at the State Department was to do that sort 

9 of thing. You don't employ a first baseman to pitch, and 

10 that wasn't my area. 

11 Q Were you aware that Mark Richards as a detailee 

12 from the Air Force changed to the president of Mark Richards 

13 Associates, a consultant, which had a consulting contract 

14 with LPD and occupied the same office and the same desk 

15 and did the same job without any interruption in service? 

16 A I would say substantially yea. 

17 Q What was your relationship to Mark Richards' 

18 consulting contract at LPD? 

19 A You have the benefit of the paper that I don't. 

20 When I walked out of the State Department, I didn't tzJce 

21 any paper with me, nor did I destroy any paper, but I don't 

22 know, and I don't know even if I was put down as a technical 

23 representative or for anything else. 

24 Q Do you know what the duties of a technical 

25 



representative are? 



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39 

A No, I don't now. I may have at the time, but I 
don't now. 

Q Did you certify to the contracts office that 
Mr . Richards had performed the work and asked them to pay 
him on a regular basis? 

A If you have a photostat that says I did, I guess 
I did. 

Q I am just asking whether or not you remember. 
A I don't recall specifically. 
Q Did Nark Richards report to you? 
A No, I don't think — in fact, I complained to 
Ambassador Reich that on occasion, I'm not sure that Mark 
reported to anybody, but he did not report to me. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Jonathan Miller Exhibit No. 1. It is a 
group of documents that relates to contracts in the State 
Department LPD Bureau, with Mark Richards Associates. 

MR. CHRISTMAS; I believe this is Exhibit No. 2 
because the order was number one. 

MR. OLIVER: Thank you, counsel. It is Exhibit 
No. 2. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 2 

was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q The first page of this exhibit is a memorandum 



UNCLASSIRED 




40 



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from you to Anita Brown. 

A Right. 

Q Is that your signature or your initials next to 
your name there? 

A It looks like it, yes. 

Q And do you remember sending this memorandum 
requesting the payment of $9,240? 

A I won't dispute that this is my signature. 
MR. CHRISTMAS: The question is, do you 
remember? " -i ^ ^,' 

THE WITNESS: I don't remember specifically. 
BY MR. OLIVER: I' ' 

Q Does this document help you refresh your memory 
as to whether or not youfient this forward? 

A It looks like I did. I'm not disputing. 

Q If you will turn to the fourth page of this 
exhibit, there is, I believe it is an amendment to a 
contract for media consultant services, and it indicates 
tlaiK* that Mr. JoKathan Miller of the Department's Office 
of the Coordinator for Public Diplomacy for Latin America 
and the Caribbean shall serve as the contracting officer's 
technical representative in lieu of Matthew Freedman for 
this contract. ' ;? 

Do you recall being the technical representative 
for Mark Richards and Associates? 



iimri Accir^f n 



"82-722 656 



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nNRfonmr 



41 



A I guess I was. Mr. Freedman^ at the time he 
departed, did all sorts of things in the way of changing 
records, and all sorts of people got assignments, because 
of Mr. Freedman's departure to the private sector, and I 
have no reason to dispute this at all. 

Q What did you do as the technical representative? 

A Well, in the cases where I would receive initial 
memos, in the general case it would be reviewed by our 
administrative people, and if they didn't see anything 



.proper a 



.proper and it looked proper to me, I would certify it and 
send it up to the management people, or it went through 
y&BX through the management people. 

Q If you will turn to the — 

A Although I have got to say in one case that is not 
my signature. 

Q What case is that? 

A The January 4, 1985. 

Q That is not your signature? 

A That is not mine. 

Q Did someone sign it for you? ! 

A I assume so. ... 

Q Was someone authorized to sign your name? 

A To the best of my knowledge, I never executed 
anything like that. 

Q Was someone authorized to sign your neune orally? 



ilNri iccir^ca 



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;^^^l 



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A I don't think so. I can'^t swear by it, but I 
don't think so. :., .>-i- ^.t ;'fc ,bei -i-.cr't; ' S 
T"- Q If you will turn to the — , q 

'Of? s.'-v-. MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse just a moment, if you 
don't mind. Thank you. . , -. <, - ^ -, ,. ^ 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q If you will turn to the sixth to the last page in 
this exhibit, which is headed "Section G Contract Adminis- 
tration Data," it indicates there that you are designated 
as the contracting officer. ^ ^ . ,.' ; -. 

""*"'. ^J ■ 

A Right. . , „,.„ :i -v 

Q Technical representative? 

A Right. o, 

Q In matters concerning technical clarification, 
inspection and acceptance, and it indicates that you will 
coordinate all the work with contractor and review the 
contractor's performance at significant stages of its 
development. Did you do that? 

A In the Mark Richards case, I can't affirm or 
deny that I did this. I would say in a general manner, 
I did, but I did an awful lot of things in the office on a 
daily basis, but I would say generally I may have. 

Q You don't know whether you did this job or not? 

A I'm saying generally that I did know. You can 
question with the benefit of hindsight whether I did a 



e benefit or ninasignt wnet 

UkCLASSIF!FJI 



659 



ufRsa^pn^T 



43 



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good job, but I assume that I did do this job, especially 
if I initialed those documents. 

Q On the January 4th memorandum, is your testimony 
that that is not your signature on there, on that memorandum 
to Tony Hawkins, on payment for an oustanding bill? 

A This may be splitting hairs. This looks like 
mine. The one to Anita Brown beneath it is not, but it's 
probably irrelevant since I certified. One of them is my 
signature and the other isn't. 

Q Isn't it true that in order for Mark Richards to 
be paid, you as the technical representative would have to 
certify his work? 

A It appears to be that is the case. 

Q Do you remember whethexpr not you were required 
to certify his work? 

A If I was whatever, the technical representative, 
I have to certify his work. I know that much. 

Q So in effect, if he was paid, you certified 
that he had carried out the terms of his contract? 

A I have to take the responsibility for it. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: The question was, Mr. Miller, 
do you know if you actually did certify or not? 
THE WITNESS: I assume that I did. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q You will note in here further on through' 



i further on through tn^^ 



660 



mtKsmESF 



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exhibit correspondence on the letterhead of Mark Richards 
and Associates signed by Carolyn Richards, secretary— ' 
treasurer, addressed in each instance to you. 

Did you receive these requests for payments from 
Carolyn Richards? 

MR, CHRISTMAS: You are talking about each 
specific request, sir, or are you talking about generally 
did he receive requests. ' ' 

BY MR. OLIVER: ' ' ^ 

Q Generally. ' ' ■ ■■ - ■ . , . > : /, 
A Generally I think they came in the mail, but I 
can't swear by it, whether they were hand delivered or came 
in the mail, and I would immediately hand them to our 
administrative people. 

Q If you will turn to the document dated February 26, 
1985, it is about halfway through this exhibit, it is a 
memorandum to Mr. George F. Touhy from Frank Gardner, 
subcontractor for Mark Richards Associates , and it says in 
ttM bottom, next to the last paragraph, "Service to be 
rendered by Mark Richards Associates are critical to our 
public diplomacy strategy, and in improving the public's 
perception of U.S. policy in Central America for the 
Caribbean. " }' i ; 

It goes on to say that you will serve as the 
technical representative. And on the next page its 



:ative. And on tne next pc 



661 



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iJUM-ttfiuyn) 



45 



sole-source justification attached. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: The third page. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Why were the services to be rendered by Mark 
Richards Associates critical to our public diplomacy 
strategy? 

A The perception, I didn't reach this decision, 
but the feeling was that Mark Richards had unique talents, 
and that we were having very strong difficulty in getting 
detailees from agencies that had certain public diplomacy 
expertise, and I think that what the Department of Defense 
was willing to provide us was not a person that had the 
capabilities of Mark Richards. That is the background in 
both Defense public affairs and intelligence, and I think 
that that was th« rationale for Mark or part of it. That 
wasn't my decision when he ceased to be an active-duty 
member of the Air Force. 

Q How did he ijq>rove the public's perception of 
O.S. policy in Central America? 

A He had very, very good relations with an awful 
lot of reporters that he had built up over the years in the 
defense area, and it was felt that we could continue to 
utilize those unique assets, that it would help us get 
our message out. 

Q Was the Bureau of Publi< 



llNCLASSfF:^) 

'ublic Affairs aware or ms 



6@2 



11 



nmismf^ 



46 



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briefing of these journalists? 

A I can't tell you one way or the other. 

Q Was there somebody else supervising his work 
besides you? 

A Ambassador Reich. 

Q He reported to Ambassador Reich rather than 
to you? 

A In most cases, although, as I have admitted, 
there were times that we had to rein Mark in. I felt that 
there were times that he was a little too easy, you know, 
wanting to get stuff out before the fact that we had 



i:ir'^^ 



properly UcJ a lmi everything. 

Q Would you el2iborate everything? What do you mean 
by reining him in? And what had he done that wasn't proper? 

A There wasn't anything that he did that I was aware 
of. What he had proposed sometimes he was so anxious — the 



shelf life on intelligence roattersi> it was a delicate 
bAance, shelf life in intelligence matters is rather short, 
but by the same token, we had to protect sources and methods 
and our idea was to properly declassify as rapidly as 
possible. He was frustrated by that and there were times 
that Mark would threaten to go public before we declassified 
certain things, and that is what I _was worried about, when 
I said we had to rein him in. 

Q What do you mean by threat to go public? 



. was worriea aoout, wnen 

UNCLASSIF'ED 



663 



12 



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l^^^OJT^gT 



47 



A Well, I mean he would not go public, but he would 
threaten to go out and get something before we had finished 
declassification. 

Q Who would he threaten? 

A He wculd say, this is stupid, you know, this is 
why the bureaucracy is so horrible, I'm going to do X, Y, 
Z, and I said you can't do that. You know, this operation 
will be shut down immediately if you go around giving out 
information that hasn't been declassified. 

Q Did he ever give out information that had not 
been declassified? 

A I cannot tell you for a fact on that. 

Q Your testimony is he just threatened to, but you 
have no knowledge that he ever did? 

A I have no knowledge that he did, but I can't 
preclude anything^ 

Q Do you remember any specific instance when any 
classified information appeared in the media that emanated 
fro« LPD or from Mark Richards? 

A I don't recall specific instances. 

Q Do you recall any specific instance? 

A I recall a specific instance of things leaking 
out all the time from both the Executive and Legislative 
Branches, and from both the White House and the State 



Department. 



UNCLASSlF'i^ 



664 



1ttlfil<AS§i!l^ 



48 



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Q My question was whether or not you remember a 
specific instance where there was any information that came 
from LPD. 

A The answer is, I cannot specifically. 

Q And who provided Mr. Richards with this classified 
information? 

A He would read in the daily briefing. We had a 
daily briefing from Intelligence and Research Bureau, which 
was totally authorized by the' OODK , and at 11 o'clock every 
morning we would have an intelligence briefing officer come 
in and brief those of us that had the proper clearances. 

Q As his technical representative, did you arrange 
for Mark Richards to have a security clearance? 

A He had the security clearance when he was at the 
Air Force and I asked our administrative people to handle 
that, but I myself would not be dealing with it. 

Q What do you mean to handle it? 

A Well, we hire administrative people to do those 
sorts of things. I asked that his classifications be 
transferred and updated when he ceased to be an active- 
duty member of the Air Force. 

Q How much time did that take? 

A I don't really know, because sometimes it was 
quick and sometimes it was very slow. In my case, I got 
■clearance immediately. 



yftCLiS^iic'c-^ 



665 



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. 8 
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littiLftSQnev 



49 




Q What do you mean by inunediately? 

A Within hours. I don't know why. The request went 
in to INR. It wasn't handled by me. 

you you had H^^^^^^^^^^^^lwithin 
hours? 

A I was told by the briefer from intelligence. I 
had to go to a briefing that was put together by INR, and 
I certified after I had gone to the briefing, they said 
you now have 

Q Why did you need^^^^^^^B::learance? 

A It was felt that the re was an awful lot of data 
that was coming in , ^^^^^^^^^^BB^^^^^^^B^^^^^^^^^^B 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^n h a t 
we should be privy to, so that we could then attempt to get 
the word out and go through declassification. I frankly 
think it made a lot of sense. There weren't that many 
people in the office that had) 

Q Who else had ^^^^^^Hclearance besides youl 
A John Blacken, obviously before John Blacken, 
Dub©** did, Larry Tracy, later Colonel Jacobowitz did. 
I think that may have been — 

Q Did Mark Richards havel 





nwriflgcir'cn 



666 



URDEftSSffffieir 



50 



1 Q But you don't remember? 

2 A No, I can't specifically say that I saw him come 

3 in with a certification. 

* Q You would have known it, wouldn't you? You were 

5 his supervisor. ' '. 

6 A No, but the administrative people would have. 

7 If you are asking in hindsight, should I have followed up, 

8 that is very possible, but, no, I would not have necessarily. 

9 Q On page 2 of the contract dated February 26, 1985, 

10 there is a list of tasks that the contractor will perform, 

11 and there are five of them listed there, and No. 5 says, 

12 "Under the guidemce of, and when authorized by -9iin), will 

13 release privileged information, on a selective basis, to the 

14 media." 

15 What does that mean? '' 

15 A I can only assume, because I did not write this, 

17 although I am down for a clearance even though I didn't 

18 cl«ar it, that this means possibly that after it has been 

19 daclassified, we would give information on a sole-source 

20 basis, because if you were sending, if you called up ABC, 

21 NBC and CBS and gave them the same information, you may not 

22 get it out, but if you said, "You have an exclusive," a 

23 policy that is understood at this end of Pennsylvania 

24 Avenue as well, that somebody is going to run with it a 

25 little harder. I think that may be what that means, but 



667 



VNfiMKfffflDT 



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I did not draw this up. 

Q You were the technical representative in all 
instances on these contracts, and you were supposed to, if 
you were doing your job, to supervise what was going on 
there — 

A I leave it up to you. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: There is no question pending. 
Counsel is only stating his personal opinion. 

MR. OLIVER: I'm trying to determine, counsel, 
whether or not he performed this function as technical 
representative which he was required to. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: That is not your question. Your 
question was a statement. You should have asked, this was 
your job. 

MR. OLIVER: If you will let me finish, I will 
get to the question. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Counsel, I have objected to your 
qottstion. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q What is privileged information? 
A I don't know. I didn't draft this. 
Q You cleared it, didn't you? 

A That is not my initial either. I don't know. 
I gave you, if you will look back at the transcript, an 
interpretation which I probably shouldn't even have done in 



1 I probably shouian't ever 

laiiri jiccinciL 



668 



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that regard, but I cannot tell you actually what that means. 
These are buzz words done by administrative people. 

Q When it says under the guidance of and authorized 
by-STFD ~ s - ■ -* .-■; t-,.', -■ ■ ■.:■ ^.y :; * 

A Right . :. ' - 

Q — who was it contemplated in this contract would 
give that guidance and tKJuld authorize? 

A It would have to be authorized by Ambassador 
Reich. 

Q Why do you say that? 

A Because he was the boss. That sort of stuff has 
to be made by (tlUs boss , and we are not that large an 
operation. We were not that large an operation, and that 
would have to be, if he was going to go to an ABC or 
Newsweek or something that would have to be authorized by 

Ambassador Reich. ' -' "» > '.' • •; -" 

if 
Q As I look at — ' I . Xt 

i 

A However, I find it interesting that no questions 
were raised by the contracting people at the State Depart- 
ment about it. 

Q As I look through all of this material, these 
contracts, the vouchers, the memorandums certifying the 
work has been done, asking for payment — 

A No, that is different. 

Q What I'm 



, <l 



ou indicate that Otto 



669 



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Reich would have had to do this, in your previous answer. 
Otto Reich isn't mentioned in here emywhere, but you are 
mentioned as the official technical representative, you are 
the person authorizing the payments. 

My question is, is it your testimony that this 
function was not, that you were not involved in this 
function, that only ~ I'm talking about No. 5 — that only 
Otto Reich was involved in this function? 

A I'm saying Mo. 5, I have read E. B. VThite, No. 5 
does not say Jonathan Miller, the technical representative. 
No. 5, in a small shop like ours, was something like what 
I referred to, released privileged information, is some- 
thing that should not be done by a technical representative. 
It should be done by the head of the otti.S^, and I would 
never have authorized that unless Ambassador Reich was 
aware of it and concurred. That is all I'm saying. 

Old you ever authorize the release of privileged 
information on a selective basis by Mark Richards? 

A I don't recall ever doing that, unless — 

Q Did Otto Reich ever? 

A It is very — 

Q To your knowledge? 

A It is very conceivable. 

Q Authorize the release of privileged information 



on a selective basis? 



«NcyssiE£a 



670 



\smKBSsiessc 



54 



1 
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A It's very conceivable that he authorized declassi- 
fied information on a selective basis that could be construed 
as "privileged." That is possible. 

Q Mr. Miller, you have certified to the contracts 
office that this work has been performed. In this contract 
this is one of the tasks, and you certified that the work 
had been performed, and asked for payment. .,: ■ ' 

Are you saying that you did not, that you do not 
know or did not know whether or not this work was performed? 

A I'm saying that I do not recall specifically on 
No. 5. In general, if I certified it, then I was saying 
that he provided those tasks. You know, you must have a 
tremendous sense of recall that I don't possess, and I 
admire you for it, but I do not specifically remember No. 5, 
but if I certified on a monthly basis that he did those 
things, then he must have done those things. 

Q Do you remember or recall whether or not Mark 
Richards or etnybody else in LPD leaked information to the 
pr««s about Central America? r 'j ^, 

A I don't recall any specific case. I may have 
had suspicions in certain cases that all sorts of people 
within the Department of State as well as everywhere else 
did, but I do not specifically recall, nor am I aware nor 
did I authorize a leak. 



UNCLASSIF!ED 



Q Did you ever leak any information to the media? 



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A I think to be totally honest on a couple of 
occasions I did. 

Q Was this information classified information? 

A In one specific case I think it was. 

Q Who did you leak that information to? 

A I'm not sure, but I think it may have been to 
someone at National Public Radio. • , 

Q And what was the subject or substance of the 
information? 

A It was about the use, ironically, and very, very 
ironic, the use 




Q Where did you get that information? 

A I got it from I think the INK briefing. 

Q Do you remember any other occasions on which 
you leaked classified information? 

A No. 

Q What was the procedure for — 

A Declassification? 

Q Declassification of the material that Mark 
Richards utilized? 

A The request could go — I didn't handle them, 
but my general knowledge is the request could go through 
the Intelligence and Research Bureau, or it could go 
directly to the CIA , or occasionally, if things were 



6^ 



UUAL UUUUCIL 



56 



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necessary to be declassified rather rapidly, a request would 
possibly go on the secure line to the NSC and the NSC 
would handle it. 

Q Who at the NSC would handle it? 

A Sometimes Walt Raymond, sometimes ConstantinC 1^/|«<C 



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Dur g e y s , sometimes Ollie North, but certification would 
have to come back through channels through the NSC or the 
State Department, but I didn't personally handle those 
things. Most occasions they were handled by John Blacken 
or Otto Reich, but I knew the general channel in which 
you did it. 

Q Did Mark Richards send these materials to you for 
clearance before he gave them to the media? 

A Yes, on certain occasions I know he sent material 
up the line. 

Now, I cannot tell you, as I have said before, 
that I'm omniscient and say that he did it in all cases. 

Q When you say up the line, what was the line? 

A Give it to me or give it to Otto. He would call 
cables and say, "We've got to get this out," and send it 
to INR and say, "Can we get this." It was oiv 



showing up^^^^^^^^^^^hat had been transshipped for 
Nicaragua, and things like that. 

Q And do you recall any instances in which 
(ipr'i 3 <5<5i fi ration of information was ever denied? 



UNCl4SSfF?ED 



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ONRffiotnBr 



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A Yes. I can't tell you what they were. We 
recognized that we weren't going to bat a thousand, and that 
there were sources and methods. There had to be. We would 
appeal a lot, but we didn't win them all by any stretch of 
the imagination. 

Q Do you remember any instances in which you sought 
declassification and were denied and appealed and were 
denied? 

A I'm sure they happened, but I can't tell you 
specifically. 

Q You can't remember any specific instances? 

A No. 

Q All of this information I assume pertained to 
Central America? 

A Oh, we didn't deal in anything else. 

Q Did you get a reguleu: cable take every day at 
LPD from the — 

A The OPS center? 

Q From the OPS center. Did you also get a CIA 
take every day? 

A No, we would get the INR extract that the INR 
Bureau felt was relevant for us, and it did not include, 
specifically we went over backwards to make sure it didn't 
cover any other part of the world, because they felt it 
wasn't relevant to our activities. 



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58 

Q Did you have any CIA detailees? 
A No. That was a specific — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Counsel hasn't finished his 
question. I'm sorry. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q At LPD? 

A That was discussed on several occasions by Otto, 
and he felt that it would be very, very — it would hurt 
our credibility, if we had agency people there, because of 
the perception of agency people, and so he said he never 
wanted to have agency people on the LPD rolls. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 3. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 3 
was marked for identification.) 



MR. OLIVER: Let the record show that Exhibit 



^orH' ^ 



Chrl(<,^K~mS 



No. 2 has approximately" two pages, according to Mr. T»lll«.'i 
count, which I will accept. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I would like to ask the witness to examine 
Exhibit No. 3, which contains five pages, the first page 
of which is an organizational chart, the Office of Latin 
American Diplomacy, as of November, 1983. 

Mr. Miiler, did you ever see this chart before? 
A I don't think so. I don't recall it. There 



i!yAi it ocirirn 



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was so much going on at this point in time, and I think 
I may not have actually physically been there at the time. 
I don't remember it. 

Q Did you ever see it at any time or don ' t you 
recall? 

A I may have, because the names — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: It pertains to the chart itself. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q The chart itself. 

A I can't say one way or the other, I'm sorry. 

Q In looking at the chart, does this chart 
represent to your knowledge the organization of SLPD? 
MR. CHRISTMAS: At what point in time, sir? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q At the point in time in which he became familiar 
with the organization. 

A No, it did not. 

Q What differs from this chart and the actual 
os9«nization of SLPD as you knew it? 

A There was no intelligence community liaison, 
and there was no congressional affairs position. I think 
basically that's it. I mean the secretaries may have 
been different, but those two boxes were never filled. 

Q You indicated at one point earlier in your 
testimony that you were having difficulty in getting 



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detailees from other agencies. Why were you having that 
difficulty? 

A Well, everybody had difficulty in the Federal 
Government. We used to have difficulty getting detailees 
at the White House. Nobody wants to give up anybody, 
especially if they are competent and the ones they are 
willing to give you you have got a question as to whether 
they were being off-loaded, so it was a natural bureaucratic 
thing. 

We didn't feel we were being singled out, plus 
we were an anomaly, an interagency in s t e a d a£ an NSC 
directive, but it was housed at the State Department, and 
so we were of sort of questionable parentage, so it was 
always, it came in the middle; in addition it came in the 
middle of the assignment cycle, which was very, very 
difficult, so there were all sorts of reasons, which were 
pretty xinderstandable. 

Q But for the most part, wasn't LPD primarily 
staffed by detailees from other agencies? 

A Oh, yes, that is true. 

Q Did you have any assistauice from the White 
House in obtaining these detailees? 

A I don't have any recall in that area. I don't 
think so. 

Q Weren't you the liaison with the White House? 



(iNCLASSIFIED 



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A I personally didn't, and I don't think Otto did 
either. I think we dealt in channel. 

Now, are you talking about the White House or 
the NSC? I don't mean to split hairs. 

Q That's all right. Go ahead and split them. 
If you would like to make a distinction between the two, 
please do. 

A That is what I was, because once I took the 
management job at the White House, I recognized that they 
were different, different appropriations and everything 
else. We didn't go to the White House seeking help. It's 
very conceivable — in fact, I would say it's probable -- 
that Otto on numerous occasions would cry on Walt Raymond's 
shoulders and say, "We're not getting the bodies." And 
since Walt was the sort of international public diplomacy 
officer — 

Q He was sort of the person you reported to, 
UD did at the White House? 

A At NSC. 

Q At NSC? 

A Yes. 

Q And then were you aware of Walt Raymond being 
of assistance in breaking loose these detailees that you 
needed? 

A I know that, for instance, he would talk to 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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people at State about bring State people on board, and he 
talked to people at USIA about bringing USIA people on 
board. We didn't need to have him talk to AID because I 
had better relations with AID than he did, so I was the one 
that dealt with AID. I don't know who handled the Defense 
Department, but those were the thre^ agencies that contri- 
buted above and beyond State "and USIA, OoD and AID. 

Q In this chart, it has notes, "Senior adviser 
DoD detail Tracy." What were the duties of the senior 
adviser? 

A Theoretically Colonel Tracy was to focus on 
things like the military buildup of the Sandinistas,! 




I underscore the word "theoretical," because 
Larry is in the best sense of a word a gregarious Irish- 
Catholic who loves to speak and he was on the potato 
circuit all the time. He loved to go out and give speeches. 
If there was a forum with Ray Bonner or Ambassador White, 
he would love to, an^ Congregational Church in Vermont that 
was going to be contentious, he would love to go speak, 
and so he was basically that senior adviser was for Larry's 
purposes a title, but he was the number-one speaker of the 
public diplomacy operation. He was on the road more than 
he was in the office. 



Uma^Qic- rr. 



679 



m&timxm 



63 



1 Q Was he on the same level as you and John Blacken, 

2 as this chart would seem to indicate? 

3 A It was our operation, as you have probably figured 

4 out, it was fairly egalitarian. In fact, there was not a 

5 lot of deference^"- It was irreverent»~given to Ambassador 

6 Reich by the staff. There was a lot of affection, but we tv- 

7 really didn't look at levels. I can't say that •*» right 

8 or wrong. To me it's irrelevant. 

9 Q There is an indication there in one box it says, 

10 "Research and information gathering," and in parenthesis, 

11 "(position to be established)," and then the name Romero. 

12 Vfho was Romero? 

13 A Peter Romero had served in a political section of 

14 the embassy in El Salvador. He is now, I think, he is a 

15 Foreign Service Officer at the G e uwoil General in Naples, 

16 but he was the person that would work on gleaning an awful 

17 lot of information, and he was the first person to start 

18 putting together the books that we did, the publications 

19 tlMit we did. Frankly, he is one of the best employees we 

20 ever had. 
2\ Q I know you said you hadn't seen this chart 

22 before, but do you know why it would say on there "the 

23 position to be established"? Were you having difficulty 

24 getting these positions authorized within LPD? Is that 

25 what this signifies? 



^ftOUSSlFlFn 



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end 2 
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A Which is certainly typical when you create a new 
monster out of nothing. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



681 



2A 

md 1 



*ls emm 



imctAsaaEfiT 



iHCUsaf 



65 



Q So, in effect, you <T1 were trying to create a 
bigger Department than someone wanted you to create, is that 
right? 

A Well, no, I wouldn't agree with that at all. We 
had to, and I think it was necessary, to justify each position 
and I think that is the way it should be. We did not have 
a blank check, and this was, I assume, although I have never 
seen it, was a snapshot at one point of where Otto thought 
the office should go, and was probably a working paper to 
argue with the bureaucratic powers at the ■ flMr ea u D«p«"'V<««>'V , 

There was an awful lot of to-ing and fro-ing, which 
is probably good, with the S. Bureau and the M. Bureau with 
everybody, what was the proper fit for SLPD. 

Q You had already made the decision in November of 
1983 to take this job? 

A At some point, yes, but I was happily in the 
Kalahari Desert in southern Africa. 

Q Do you wish you had stayed there? 
' A There are many times I wish I were back there. 

Q The next couple of pages in this exhibit, the title 
page, LPD January 31, 1984, assignments and tasks. Then, 
the next page, it says "Taskers J. Miller." 

A Yes. 

Q 



•a; 



I assume that is you; is that correct? 

Oh, this o^ one of many early on. We had all sorts 



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of things like this, which basically were as obsolete when the^ 
came out, and Otto was very big on this sort of thing, and 
no one had time to actually worry about their taskers. 
There were tons of these. 

Q Did you draft that? 

A No. 

Q But you have seen this before? 

A Oh, yes, I have seen it before. I remember it. 

Q So, who would have drafted this piece of paper? 

A Gosh, I don't know. It could be Patrice Malone, 
who was Otto's Special Assistant at the time. It could be 



Otto's Spec 



Victor Bonia, a Foreign Service Officer really on loan that 
didn't have any other assigned duties. 

Q This would come to you like this; is that correct? 

A It would be produced by someone on the staff, and 
it was abandoned rather quickly, because no one could keep up 
with these taskers. He had our plates full. 

Q But basically, this would come to you from somebody 
jugh this was what you were supposed to do? 

A I think it was generated on the basis of things that 
Otto would say in out staff meetings, and someone on the staff 
would prepare it, and it was on the V*n«, and it would be 



i/NCLASSIFfil 



updated. '^^f*'^! 

It could be by John S«t>*ti. There is another person 
I am thinking of. But I frankly, for one, and I wasn't the 



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omimmf 



67 



only staff member, did not really pay any attention to it, 
because we had enough business doing our jobs. 

Q The first one here is dated January 1st, 1984. 

A Yes. 

Q Then there is another one dated May 17, 1984. 

A No. 

Q Apparently it wasn't abandoned too quickly. 

A Time is relative. It was never ever-except by 
Otto-cbnsidered by the staff to be an important thing. As you 
already know, as Otto referred to Under Secretary Eaqalcurger ,, 
we were sort of like the Dirty Dozen here, a rather irreverent 



^^ 



^^ 



staffs 

Q To otto, irreverent to Otto, or irreverent to who? 

A Yes, there was a great love for Otto, but it was 
a very informal group. Everybody there was a volunteer. It 
was very egalitarian and very atypical bureaucracy. Not 
State Department, that is for sure. 

Q Let's look at this list a minute, and talk about it 
a §ltni minutes. Number one is a plan for briefing State 
legislators, which, when, by whom, et cetera. It has besides 
it priority H. 

A Yes, high. 

Q High? 

A Medium and low. 



High, medium and 



loJ 



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"' A Monitor FBIS, as an exeunple. That is nximber 10. 
I ^m't have enough hours in the day to go through FBIS. 

Did you develop a plan for briefing State 
legislators? 

A No, I don't think we ever did. We didn't have time 
I mean, we had to look from minute to minute on what was 
breaking. We had talked about it, but there never seemed to 
be a proper fonom in which we were doing this, plus we had 
to, I remember in this case, coordinate with public affairs, 
and public affairs was not enamored with the plan. 

At the time, there were many, many, many pending 
resolutions at State legislatures about our Central American 
policy, and there was a perception that — for instance, I 
remember the State of Hawaii had some pending legislation, 
that the people really didn't understand, and we had considered 
at one time whether we should brief them either in the State 
or bring them to Washington, and the plan never got off the 

•" 

^^^Vft When you say high priority for documents, do you kno« 
what that referred to? 

A Let me tell you what it became later on, but at this 
time I can't recall. I was rather green. But I know that 
there were Congressmen, especially Newt Gingrich, that had 
an insatiable appetite, that were always demanding things 
immediately^ " I want to know, as I said, the number of politicc 



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prfiibners in Sandinista prisons. I want to know this, I want 
to know that. I assumed that that is what that sort of thing 
was. They were never ending. 

Q What was the priority attached to that? 

A Well, Otto felt first and foremost that we had to 
provide all the information, because our biggest problem was 
misunderstanding on the Hill. 

Q But when you say Hill priority list, did that refer 
to a list of people on the Hill who had priority over others? 

A I can't tell you. 

No, I don't think so. I think it was, you know — 

Q What was number 4, the media coordinator? Oo you 
remember? 

A That was to find somebody who was going to handle -- 
we were getting dozens of requests.^^ (t was later filled by 
Janis Barb«L]:c7^ from radio stations and local affiliates and 
nowspapers and everything else for spokesmen, and the Public 

\ Operation at the State Department said, "Look, we have 
seven priorities. Central America is one of them." 
We had one person that had to work with PA, and I was doing it 
on an ad hoc basis, and I had to go out and find somebody. 
Otto kept saying — 

Q Number 9 says, "Identify target audiences for 
Congress." What does that refer to? IjNCLASSIr I ED 

A I don't know. I really don't know. I am not being I 



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I don't know. 

3?r Q It had a high priority, and I thought you might 
recall. 

A Otto had 88 brilliant ideas every day that had 
high priorities. I am sure that you, having worked on the 
Hill, are aware that there are members that do the same thing, 
and just as you are getting on to one thing, you have got 
to work on something else. I cannot tell you. 

Q What about "Ideas for Op Ed Pieces," number 11. 
What was that aibout? 

A There was a feeling, and I didn't end up spending 

any time on this, remember at this time there weren't many of 

us on board, that we continually needed people to go out 

in prestigous — I didn't. chair this with Otto, because I 

felt Op Ed pieces outside of the Beltway have zero effects, 

that they are primarily ego trips for people inside of 

Washington, but there was a feeling that we should have, 

ally where we were getting pummelled on ideas like 

C '^'^ 
traa were nothing but a bunch of old Somo^istas, 

should have prestigous people like Jeane 

Kirkpatrick writing Op Ed pieces for the New York Times, 

r ^ 
The Wall Street Jounal and The Washington Post, et cetera, 

r Of- 

et cetera, and that was another one of Otab's ideas. 

I had strong disagreement with the value of pieces. 

He adores them, thought they were very important. 

I'MM iioeirirn 




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Q Did you generate a lot of Op Ed pieces? 

A No, I don't think we did. We spent a lot of time 
and usually, by the time it got cleared, the Op Ed piece 
was ready, it was too late, because it wasn't cleared in an 
intelligence sense, but it had to be cleared by the 
Public Affairs Bureau, the S. Bureau and ARA and everything 
else, and by that point, the moment had passed. 

Q Did you contract with outside contractors to 
write Op Ed pieces? 

A I don't think originally. I know you are going to 
get into IBC. That was one of IBC's. 

Q I don't know what made you — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Don't give him any ideas. Maybe 
we will skip and go over that. 

MR. OLIVER: He will get there. 
THE WITNESS: At some point. Op Ed pieces were handled 
by contractors. To the best of my knowledge, /fewer government 

•ials. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Do you have any knowledge of these Op Ed pieces 
being written under contract for LPD by private citizens? 

A I think so, but I think it was well known in the 
Contracting Section at State. 

Q Did these Op Ed pieces indicate when they were 
written, that they had been paid for or would have been paid 



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WAffSSIRIf 



72 



by LPD to do this? 

A No, because the feeling was that if appropriated 
funds were used for Jonathan Miller to write a piece for 
Secretary Shultz or for Frank Gomez to use it, since 
contractors were considered legitimate extensions of LPD 
at the time — now, we may be engaged in revisionist 
interpretation, but at the time, it was considered okay, that 
there was no distinction in that regard, and Secretary 
Shultz or Congressman Fascell, when they had a piece in The 
New York Times, he usually doesn't say the following was 
written by X person. 



Congressman Fascell usually writes his own? 



V<^ 



Ofr- 



I should use^zanother example. 



^ 



The idea that I am concerned with here is that — 

We did not attempt to hide it, no. 

Did you pay outside contractors to write Op Ed 
pieces which were published without attribution to the 
U.S. Government ? 

A Would you sort of — 

Q What I am saying, would you pay an individual to 
write an Op Ed piece, provide him with information, declassifi 
information, and pay him $500 or so, as an example, and then 
have that fellow publish an article in a newspaper and say, 
this is Joe Blow, who is Professor in Podunk, and with no 
further identification in terms of being a consultant to LPD? 

iiMPi jiccirscn 



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IMNlttSfEVEir 



73 



A Not that I am aware of. I mean, there may have 
been people who did that, and I know, for instance, that 
in one or two cases, especially in Costa Rica, Frank 
Gomez did write some pieces, but he had said that he was 
doing this, these were ideas that he came up with on his own 
as a private citizen. 

Now, maybe he should have said Mr. Gomez serves 
as a consultant at the State Department, but in that 
specific case, I remember that I said after the fact, "I have 
written this as a private citizen." I cannot tell you where it 
was published. I don't even know if it was accepted, if that 
is what you are referring to. 

Q No, I am not referring to that. I am referring to 
your contracting with an individual or individuals to 
write for the specific purpose in the contract of writing 
Op Ed pieces. 

A Under his byline? 

Q Under his byline. 

A Absolutely not. 



l^yPI ACCir>rr\ 



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alee #3 
2:30 p.m. 



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23 

24 

25 



MR. CHRISTMAS: Did he do it? 
MR. OLIVER: Did he know aboat it? 
MR. CHRISTMAS: Did he know? 

MR. OLIVER: I asked him if he knew whether or not 
this was done in LPD. , , ./ 

THE WITNESS: No. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Second question: Did you have anything to do with 
it? And your answer is? 
A No. 

Q There is a reference in here to Parade Magazine 
article on Bolonas. What does that refer to? 

A I remember Otto using Parade Magazine as an example 
of the type of vehicle we should use, like he had done with 
Readers Digest. I cannot tell you Bolonas — there were lots 
of cases, lots of times, I probeibly should. Parade Magazine 
was used as an example all the time. I don't think we ever 
successfully got anything into Parade Magazine. 

Q Number 12 says, "Coordinate with W/PMC or coordinate 
with PMC Re: Korologas and Gray means and objective for OR." 
I assume that is Otto Reich. What was PMC? 

A I don't know now. I am sure I knew at the time. I 
can't tell you. You may be able to refresh me. I obviously 
know who Bob Gray is . 

Q Why were you supposed to coordinate these meetings. 



691 



vma/e^RPtiB' 



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and what were the objectives? 

A Because these are former, are people involved in 
the public relations area, and I think Otto wanted to get 
ideas on how to undertake this rather new idea. Since I 
had at least nominal political background, I would usually 

^ 

get assigned. 

Q Go back to the last page here, which is dated 
May 24, and we see number 2, 12, 14, 22, 24 and 25. I 
assume that this is your word processor still maintaining 
things that had not been done, eliminating things that had 
been done, is that correct? 

A Yes. I now remember these would get handed out at 
staff meetings, and we would sort of cackle and we would 
say we haven't done number 22 yet. 

Q Who was Jose Cunningham? 



A I don't know. I knew at the time. But I don't 

m 

know now. It was a low priority, and I will lay you 
dollars to donuts I never did it. 

Q Was Jose Cunningham a Central American citizen? 

A I don't know. 1983- '84 I could have told you. 

Q Did you ever raise the Korologos and Gray meetings? 

A No. He may have met with Bob Gray on his own, 
but I never did. 

MR. OLIVER: This is a good time to take a break. 



Is 4 5 minutes enough? 



(iNCLAS!5!F!Fn 



6d2 



racfflssvusT 



76 



1 THt WITNESS: It is more than enough, 

2 MR. OLIVER: Let's try to get back at 1:15. 
j3 (Whereupon, at 12:34 p.m., the select committee 
4 recessed until 1:15 p.m. the same day.) 
5 
8 
7 
8 
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IS 
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ao. 

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unclass!f:ed 



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otson/drg 
ake «4 
: 15 p.m. 



TOBiSSffigT 



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2S 



AFTERNOON SESSION 
Whereupon , 

JONATHAN MILLER, 
resumed the stand as a witness and having been previously 
duly sworn, was examined and testified further as follows: 
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE HOUSE SELECT 
COMMITTEE 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Back on the record. 

Mr. Miller, I want to ask you about a couple things-, 
one I am sure you are aware of and evoked some curiosity. 
Secretary Shultz testified before the committee that you 
were trying to interfere with his travel plans. Are you 
familiar with that statement that was made by Secretary Shultz? 

A I am quite familiar. I almost went into cardiac 
arrest when I heard him refer to it. 

Q Could you tell us why, in your opinion, or what 
you know about his allegations that would, or what circum- 
stances would have caused him to have made that statement? 

A I was a bit flabbergasted when I heard it, for many 
reasons, one of which is as Deputy Assistant to the President 
for Management, I do not have the authority to approve or 
disapprove, or did not have the authority to approve or dis- 
approve Presidential missions. 

I also, as did my predecessors, made recommendations 



694 



i»eLfls$ffu^ 



78 



1 to the Chief of Staff, the Chief of Staff made that decision. 

2 All Presidential missions. So, number one, it wasn't, I 

3 never would make that final determination. Number two, the 

4 Chief of Staff was very close and still is a very close 

5 personal friend of the Secretary of State, and at no time was 

6 I ever told, and subsequently since I happen to share a 

7 suite with Mr. Regan even as we speak, he has said he was 

8 ever aware of George Shultz having problems with aircraft; 

9 and considering the fact they are, eunong other things, 
to golfing buddies, I was a bit flabbergasted the Chief of 

fj Staff didn't know about it, but the President of the United 
12 States had to be bothered by it. 

•J3 Thirdly, I had a good working relationship with 

■J4 the Secretary tiA the State Department, and I never received 
■J5 any phone calls on that. The actual fact is we, my instruc- 
1g tions from the Chief of Staff, as were my predecessor's, 
17 was to be very tight on Presidential missions, that they were 
1g not to be an excuse to augment these departmental budgets . 
^g I became rather infamous in my one year as Deputy 

2Q Assistant President for Management to be tight fisted. There 
were times I would tell the Chief of Staff he couldn't use 
the U.S. Air Force jet. There were times my former boss, 
Jim Baker, was informed Treasury would have to pay for things. 
I did not single out the Secretary of State, and I agree with 



Chief of Staff Regan's assumption this was primarily a turf 



695 



li])@E)l§Sfp^'^ 



79 



1 battle, and knowing the State Department bureaucracy, I felt 

2 that probably was something the Secretary was misimiormed 

3 on, and I think he sort of later in testimony realized there 

4 was a tempest in the tea pot. 

5 The long and short of it is I think the Secretary 

6 was mistaken and given bad information by staff. 

7 Q You never denied his request for an airplane? 

8 A No, the Secretary of State has never gone on a 

9 mission without a U.S. Air Force jet. Questions came up 

10 as to whether the State Department should pay or the Department 

11 of Defense. That is a question of whether it is a Presidential 

12 mission. The Secretary of State was always handled in a 

13 memorandum to the Chief of Staff. The same with the 

14 Secretary of Treasury, H^ — there were times I would 

15 recommend that — Ed Meese, when going to Europe, had the 

16 Justice Department pay for an Air Force jet or he would go 

17 commercial. I did not single the Secretary out. I am a 

18 Scotsman by background, and I am very tight fisted. 
^g Q Did you ever learn who had informed the Secretary 
20 you were involved in this? 

A No. I am somewhat philosophical now. It really 
isn't relevant. We are sort of worrying about who is 
carrying the stiletto. You can worry all day. I have my 
own ideas. It is not worth worrying about. 



Q Do you think it might have been related in some 



696 



IMWISSQRCV 



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way to what you refer to as your -- LPD's kind of unpopular 
position in the State Department? 

A No. I think it was possibly, if anything, I was 
more abrasive. Although I g<^ on well with people personally, 
I was tough in my role as Senior Director for Coordination at 
NSC on Presidential visits, and if there was — if there were 
ruffled feathers on my part, and I am just speculating, it 
would have probably been more from my handling of Presidential 
foreign travel and being tough on the State Department in 
trying to keep their delegations down. They had a tendency 
to take more people than the President did. 

Q Did you have anything to do with approving 
transportation, either local or air, for Oliver North? 

MR. CHRISTMAS: While he was at the White House? 

MR. OLIVER: While he was at the White House. 

THE WITNESS: On a couple of occasions, I would chew 
out Bob Earl because I found out they had gone directly to 
DOD. I don't know — I never, never was involved in provid- 
ing any transport for any of Colonel North's activities. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Would a request for U.S. Government transportation, 
airplane transportation, by Colonel North come through you? 

A It should, but it didn't, if it was to be a 
Presidential mission. We only handled Presidential missions. 
There was a separate office within the Department of Defense 



697 



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air missions were sent up without our knowledge. They were 
just authorized by the Department of Defense, and from what I 
was able to ascertain, that was the case with Colonel North. 
He never went through my office or went through the White 
House military office that I am aware. 

Q Did you ever meet Bill Casey? 

A No. I have seen him, but I have never met him. 

Q Did you ever meet Dewey Clarridge? 

A I may have at a retirement party for a friend of 
mine at the agency. 

Q Who was that friend? 

A A friend 




Q Did you ever meet Claire George? 

A I don't think so. ^ /t/ll'F' 




Q When did you first meet 

A I can't really tell you. I think probably late 

'84, but I can't swear. It could be one side or the other. 

Q Did you meet him in one of these public diplomacy 

meetings at the White House? 

A No. 

Q Where did you meet him? 

A From time to time as we got involved in congression- 
al, legislation pending on the Hill, there would be pulled 

together a group of people under the aegis o f XTnh/ i Fortier, 

VMM aQcicic a 



698 



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DWR.i^nRBr 



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ATh 

all 



and they needed basically someone to do the foot wor)c, and 
since we were always considered good people, LPD always did 
the foot work. The people, there were people from White House 
Legislative Affairs, State Department Legislative Affairs, a 
5 couple people from the pLgencie^^ome NSC people Hl^e Raj^ ^^ 
e'^SiiSSw^and Ollie and Donj|^that is where I saw^||| 

the time. 

Q Did Walt Raymond participate in those meetings? 

A No. 

Q What was LPD' 3 role in the legislative effort? 
A It was primarily to gather documents and material, 
because there was a frustration, even on the part of the 
Legislative Affairs people, Fox particularly, at the State 
Department, that wheels move too slowly, and when Bob 
MichJTei wanted something, we had to get it up there, and 
we ^ere the guys supposed to race around and even if we 
hacked up people at the State Department or in the, you know. 
DOD or whatever we had to get, we didn't worry about the 
ramifications, we had to get the material. 

Q What kind of material would Ed Fox want for Bob 
MichT^lAhat couldn't be provided by Ed Fox? 

^A He would just pick up the phone and call me 
because Ed had some problems with his own people that were 
not, they were nine-to-f ivers. They didn't move with the 

* ^ ^^A Tn fact that is how I think it first 
swiftness of speed. in ract, ^na^ 

UHCA flQClCTn 



699 



25 



iiRfSE)i§sf?;^T 



83 



1 received the attention of people in the NSC. 

2 I was able to say yes and be there at 8:00 o'clock 

3 at night or 7:00 in the morning, that type of thing. They 
* wanted people to do that sort of thing, and Ed felt his own 

5 bureau, as well as other bureaus, just moved rather slowly. 

6 Q What kind of material would they ask for? 

7 A Things I have referenced before. I mean, it would 

8 be preparing books for refuting all the accusations that 



9 certain tHfQponeatg of the administration would made on our 

10 position in, our positions, you know, some of the great 

11 myths about the contras. It would be to detail — this 

12 was all unclassified stuff — compiling what armaments had 

13 poured in under Soviet aid. 

14 Q Was this stuff that had been declassified for LPD? 

15 A Yes. Declassified generally. A lot of times we 

16 were picking stuff off the shelf. He were, in effect, a 

17 clearing house at that point. They could sort of do their 

18 one-stop shopping. We were the ones who had to do the foot 

19 wock. 

20 A lot of it was not sexy stuff. That way they 

21 don't have to call up ARA, or call up the J B8 or go over and 

22 9St something. We were the ones who had to do it. It was 

23 not exactly, as I say, sexy activity. 

24 Q Did you know Vince Cannistraro? 
A Yes. 



UHCl fl Qciocfi 



700 



2 



UNlTdbSa^lET 



84 



1 Q In what context? 



A I first met him very casually when I was at State, 



3 and I got to know Vince in a personal fashion when I was at 

^ NSC. I was never aware what his account was. I knew he 

5 was ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hworking for Graffenreid, he would 

6 show up at Ollie's office, but I don't know what he actually 

7 did. Professionally, did I work with him? No. 

8 Q Did you have any relationship with Secretary 

9 Shultz when you were at the State Department as Deputy 

10 Coordinator for LPD? 

11 A Occasionally I wold be up on the Secretary's 

12 floor, once or twice be involved in a briefing. That was 

13 the extent of it. 

14 Q Did you participate in any regular meetings with 

15 the Secretary? Did Otto participate in regular meetings 

16 with the Secretary? 

17 A Yes, he would have occasional briefings with the 

18 Secretary. Sometimes one on one. One I remember a huge 

19 operation — I can't say one on one. Usually there was some- 

20 one else in with the Secretary, with Charlie Hill or other 

21 people. 

22 Q Did you have any working relationship with Don 

23 Gregg? 

24 A None. 

25 Q Do you know Don Gregg? 

riMiy_iiccirirr> 



701 



utte^Dssmep^ 



1 A I know Don because I used to sit next to him at ^ 

2 staff meetings, but I never had any working relationship. 

3 Q Did LPD, anyone from the Vice President's office, 

4 participate in any of the working groups LPD was involved in? 

5 A I don't think so. 

6 Q No one participated in the public relations group? 

7 A No. 

8 MR. CHRISTMAS: You are only referring to the time 

9 he was employed at LPD? 

10 MR. OLIVER: That is correct. 

11 THE WITNESS: Not that I am aware. 

12 BY MR. OLIVER: 

13 Q When did you first meet Frank Gomez? 

14 A I think in early 1984. It was either December, 

15 '83,. I came back from Africa, or early 1984. 
18 Q What was he doing when you met him? 

17 A I think he was retiring as a USIA officer. I 

18 think he was running, I may not be correct, he was running 

19 oiM of the foreign press centers. 

20 Q Didn't LPD deal deal a lot with the Federal Press 

21 Center? 

22 A We did to a large extent. That was part of our 

23 mandate, to not only get information out to domestic offices, 

24 but to get it to European and Latin American offices. So 

25 we would provide materials to the Foreign Press Center. 



702 



tfttsussmEsr 



86 



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Q Was Frank Gomez running the center at that time? 

A I didn't know him that well at the time. 1 can't 
remember. I mean, I think he was, but I am not sure. 

Q When did you first learn of the possibility Frank 
Gomez might become a contractor of LPD? 

A Fairly early on. I was told, I can't remember 
whether it was by Otto or John Scaife, a USIA detailee, 
that he had the requisite expertise. 

Q Were you aware he was working with Rich Miller at 
that time? 

A No,. I wasn't at that time. 

Q Were you aware that Rich Miller had left AID to 
form a consulting firm? 



r^b^t 



there was that nice period where I was ■rtot. in the bush 
checking for Peace Corps volunteers and was out of touch, 
but at some point I became aware of it. 

Q When did you become aware of the working relation- 
ship between Rich Miller and Frank Gomez? 

A I cun not sure. I would say probably spring of '84, 
but I can't be more detailed than that. 

Q Were you the technical representative on Frank 
Gomez's consulting contract? 

A I have had my memory refreshed through people in 
the press. Apparently ^-'I was on several of them, and I e t o 



703 



87 

1 giUBCiiiLui OtLu more elonrly than Rich. — That was something 

2 Matthew Freeman, and before he left, an administrative 

3 person, had me designated on I think, originally some pur- 

4 chase orders. 

5 Q Were you briefed on what your responsibilities were? 

6 A No. As a matter of fact, it was sort of sloughed 

7 off, and they said basically you have to certify the guy is 

8 actually performing some work, and we will do the rest. 

9 I hate to pass the buck, but, as I said before, there were 

10 all sorts of people hired there who spend all their days 

11 under green eye shades who were supposed to review those 

12 sorts of things. I wasn't going to certify he was not doing 

13 his work, I was going to be honest in that regard. It was 

14 passed off as a rather light thing. 

15 Q How do you know he was doing the work? 

18 A I would see at least some of his activities — 

\j he was reporting most of the time to John Scaife, because 

18 thay had worked together at USIA plus Frank had a tendency 

19 tm arrive early in the morning before I was there and give 

20 material to John. He would brief him. He spent more time 

21 talking to John Scaife, and Scaife would report to me things 

22 he was doing. 

23 Q Did you know that Frank Gomez considered himself as 

24 an agent of Rich Miller during these initial contracts? 

AC A No, I did not. In fact, it was my impression he 

liNi^l «CCIC9L'rt 



704 



iiuAi ncci r^ r n 



1 was operating independently. 

2 Q You are familiar, of course, with the IBC con- 

3 tracts? 

^ A I am familiar by reference. I haven't seen them 

5 since 1983- '84, whenever I left. 

6 Q You have not seen them? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Were you questioned about these contracts by the 

9 Inspector General's office? 

10 A Yes, I was. In fact, I take that back. I may 

11 have had it waved in front of my nose. I did talk to the 

12 Inspector General. 

13 Q Have you talked to the General Accounting Office 

14 about those contracts? 

15 A No, I haven't. I am sure that is the next stop. 

16 Q Have you talked to Rich Miller or Frank Gomez 

17 about these contracts this year? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Have you talked to Otto Reich about these contracts 

20 this year?,^ q^ 

21 A -h'u" talked to Otto several times, and I think we 

22 roay have referenced it in May — I am not sure — Otto came 

23 out to my house for dinner. We are still quite close. We 

24 couldn't go into this, because we didn't want to sort of 

25 compare notes and pre-cook any testimony. Yes, there were 



ntlPI ilCCirir»% 



705 



23 

24 
25 



BNBEASSffHfflr 



89 



1 references to it, but we didn't go into detail. 

2 Q Did Otto Reich discuss with you his testimony 

3 before this committee? 

4 A No. And I have not spoken to him since he ap- 

5 parently came here. I intentionally have not talked to him 

6 at all. 

7 Q How did you know he came here? 

8 A I heard through Bob Tf£q^, he thought Otto had been 

9 up here. 

10 MR. CHRISTMAS: There are leaks in Washington. 

11 BY MR. OLIVER: 

12 Q Did Bob K/agan tell you about any other appearances 

13 by anyone before this committee? ., 

14 A No. He was speculating, as a matter of fact. He 
•)5 assumed while Otto was here in July, he had visited with you. 
1g I know Otto was anxious to sort of give his side of the 

17 story. But, no. Bob didn't discuss it with anybody else, 

1g except he did relate he enjoys having these tete-a-tetes 

19 with you. 

20 Q With me? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q In particular? What did he say about me? 



You are under oath. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: You are under oath. Shall we go 
off the record? 



UNcia^iFiEn_ 



706 



UNfifeA^lfiPr 



90 



1 (Discussion off the record.) 

2 MR. OLIVER: Let's go back on the record. 

3 BY MR. OLIVER: ;. 

4 Q First I note that Mr. Buck has rejoined us, and 

5 we are also joined by Vick Zangla, associate staff member of 

6 the House Select Committee. 

7 MR. CHRISTMAS: Thank you, Counsel. 

6 MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 

9 mark this as Jonathan Miller Exhibit Number 4. It is a 

10 series of documents and contracts related to State, LPD 

11 contracts with IBC and Frank Gomez. 

12 (Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.) 

13 BY MR. OLIVER: 

']4 Q Mr. Miller, these are six contracts with LPD. 

^5 Would you take a look at those, just to familiarize yourself 

1g with them. 

^7 (The witness complied.) 

18 BY MR. OLIVER: 

19 Q Back on the record. 

20 Mr. Miller, this first contract — 

21 A I think technically it is a purchase order. 

99 Q It is a purchase, order, that is correct. Were 

23 you familiar with thawurchase order at the time that it was 

OA made? 



MR. CHRISTMAS: What is the date, do you know? 



707 



\}KCtASS(^T 



91 



1 MR. OLIVER: The date of this particular purchase 

2 order is February 14, 1984. Wait a minute. No, this is 

3 not correct. August-September, 1984. 

4 THE WITNESS: This is the one — okay. The 

5 El Salvador? 

6 BY MR. OLIVER: 

7 Q Yes. 

8 A Yes, I am feuniliar. 

9 Q What did you know about this purchase order at the 

10 time? 

11 A This was done in conjunction, this was mostly 

12 done, if I remember correctly, in El Salvador at the request 

13 of the Salvadoran Government in conjunction with some 

14 conversations Ambassador Reich had with Ambassador Pickering, 

15 and there was a real concern that the El Salvadoran military 

16 had really no basic communication skills in dealing especially 

17 with the American press. 

18 And given the fact that Frank not only spoke 

19 fltwnt Spanish but had recently lived down there, his talents 

20 were asked for. We, in effect, were just the middleman on 

21 this one. This was done at the request of the Salvadoran 

22 Government by the U.S. Embassy in El Salvador to give a 

23 seminar to those members of the Salvadoran military handling 

24 their public information activities. As you are probably 

25 painfully aware, they did not have the best spit and polish 



708 



•ti^mtm 



92 



1 about them. 

2 Q Do you know whether or not that seminar was ever — 

3 A I think it was. 

4 Q — carried out? 

5 A It was. There was to be a follow-up one, which I 

6 think because of concerns by the Public Affairs Officer down 

7 there, Don Hamilton, it was never held. The initial session 

8 was, I was not in Salvador for that, but, yes, it was. 

9 Q There is a little confusion here. The first page 

10 is for a purchase order, the second is for a contract of a 

11 different time. The first page is for a two-week seminar 

12 for the Salvadoran Government early August, September, 1984. 

13 A That was to be I think a spin-off from the original 

14 one. My timeframe is very, very rough. 

15 Q Did you know about that purchase order from the 

16 Foreign Service Institute? 

17 MR. CHRISTMAS: Counsel, can we go back for a 

18 monent? Obviously, there is confusion. 

19 MR. OLIVER: ThereAs some confusion. The first 

20 PA?^ is a purchase order, an invoice from the Department of 

21 State Foreign Service Institute in the amount of $16,000 

22 that was paid on October 25, 1984, the certified person was 

23 Anita Brown. 

24 MR. CHRISTMAS: There was a question. This was the 

25 original seminar. Was this a follow-up seminar; 



m 



'Wf&.imm 



93 

1 THE WITNESS: I think this was the second seminar. 

2 MR. CHRISTMAS: That was not held? 

3 THE WITNESS: I think it was not held. A lot of 

4 trips were made, but at the last second, because of some 

5 concerns of the U.S. Embassy in El Salvador, the second one 

6 was not held. 

7 BY MR. OLIVER: 

8 Q Do you know why Anita Brown would have certified 

9 it was correct and proper for payment? 

10 A I think there were an awful lot of expenses 

11 involved. There was an ongoing effort. We were not — 

12 this is primarily between the Foreign Services Institute^ 

13 whw were at best tangentially involved in thisy the embassy 

14 in El Salvador and the Salvadoran Government. 

15 But there were an awful lot of activities -- 

16 activity was generated after the first seminar and before 

17 the second one. To have taken place would have cost more 

18 than could have been recouped. I am just speculating in 

19 tHHt regard, because I wasn't involved. Don Heunilton knows 

20 a lot more. 

21 Q Doesn't Anita Brown work for the State Department? 

22 A But there are thousands of people who work for the 

23 State Department, hundreds of people work in management. 

24 Q I believe in Exhibit Number 2 there is a memo to 

25 Anita Brown from you. 

iiMfti nccicicn 



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94 



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A Right. I never met her, though. 

Q You know who she is? , 

A Those are prepared by our administrative people. 
There are tons of memos that are generated in the bureaucracy 
to people you don't know. 

Q Did you have anything to do with certifying that 
this work had been done by Frank Gomez? 

A I don't remember being that involved, but if you 
have got documents that do on that specific one — 

MR. OLIVER: Could we go off the record for just 
a minute. 

(Discussion off the record.) 



■iMAi ■ccic'cn 



711 



Take 5 
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«f|pLflfi»»£P 



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BY MR, OLIVER: 

Q We were talking about this purchase order, August- 
September, 1984. You indicated that you really were not very 
familiar with this project. 

A I still am a little confused by the way this was 
put together, the way the exhibit was put together. This 
purchase order for $1,995 I eun feuniliar with. 

Q But you are not feuniliar with the $16,198 — 

A I am familiar with that activity, but I don't 
remember being the certifying officer, and if my memory serves 
me correctly, that was done through the Foreign Service Insti- 
tute and not through SLPD which is another division of the 
State Department. 

Q But at the time it was done, was Frank Gomez a 
contractor to LPD? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you participate in any way in assisting him with 
th« organization of this seminar that was to be held in 
August-September, 1984? 

A No, not at all. 

Q Do you know whether or not that seminar was carried 
out? I am talking about the $16,198, August-September 
seminar. 

A I can't tell you for sure. I don't think it was. 
I think it was the second seminar, and it was not held, but 

nun accicicft 



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since it wasn't my project, I can't swear by it. 

Q And it is your testimony that you had nothing to do 
with him being paid for that seminar? 

A I don't recall any involvement in that. 

Q Are you aware that the Inspector General has indi- 
cated that the work was not performed and it was recommended 
that the money be returned to the U.S. Government? 

A No. 

Q Let's move on to the next contract, which I believe 
is dated February 14th, 1984. There is an amendment. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Is that the second part of this 
exhibit? 

MR. OLIVER: That is the second part of this exhibit. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q The first part is em amendment. The contract follows 
it for the provision of said services shall be from February 
14th, 1984, to May 31st, 1984. 

A It was still in that first batch, right? 

Q Yes, that is correct. That the contract indicates 
that you would serve as the liaison officer for the Department 
of State with Frank Gomez. Did you serve in that capacity 
during the period of this contract? 

A To a certain extent I think I did, although I think 
John Scaife was more involved that I was, but yes, to a 
certain extent I was the liaison 



HMfii assinrn 



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Q What did you do as the liaison with Mr. Gomez for 
that contract? 

A Well, he would occasionally come and say that he 
would like to, for instance, prepare a collection of differ- 
ent press outlets in Central America, of what Central Ameri- 
cans are saying about the situation in Nicaragua— This is an 
illustrative example.^ and feeling that it was a good way to 
disseminate and get out to the local and regional press, he 
would come up with examples like that all the time, and would 
bring in work products to that extent. Sometimes he would 
give it to me, sometimes he would give it to John Scaife who 
would then give it to me, because as I said, he worked with 
John Scaife for years at USIA, but there were translations of 
editorials from, as an example, from Costa Rica. There were 
all sorts of things that were similar to that sort of thing 
that he would bring in from time to time. 

Q On these contracts as you looked through there on 
this exhibit, there are a number of contracts that stretch 
froa February of 1984 to October, November 1, or September 
30th of 1986, emd on those contracts — on the first one you 
were the liaison officer and on the second one you were the 
liaison officer. On the third one you were the person who 
requested the orders. 

A What are you looking at? Do you have a copy I 



can look at? 



liNr.LISSlElED 



714 



^f^ASStRCD' 



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SLK-4 



Q This is not in the contract. This is another 
document. This is in all of those documents. You were — 
actually there are seven contracts, one of which is not in 
there, and I wanted to ask you about that one in a minute, 
but on the six IBC contracts, two of which were Gomez, four 
of which were IBC, on the fourth contract you were the COTR, 
on the fifth contract you were proposed but not designated 
as the COTR, and you had some involvement in the last. Did 
you have anything to do with the last contract? I don't 
think you did. 

A No. 

Q You were gone by the time — 

A That was one day the gods smiled on me. 

Q Were you familiar with a contract with the Insti- 
tute for North-South Issues in LPD? 

A I was aware vaguely of the existence of the Insti- 
tute for North-South Issues, and I was aware that Frank had 
formed it for educational purposes, and I was always unsure 
am to what it was, but I thought it was something that had 
absolutely nothing to do with us, so I don't think I was 
aware of any specific contract between the Institute on 
North-South Issues, but I am not really up-to-speed on that. 
I haven't looked at any paperwork in so long. 

Q What was the date of your departure? 

A August of 1985. I can't give you the exact date. 



of 1985. I can't give you 

iuimissiFlP 



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Q But you don't recall a contract at about that time 
fromvNJJ to evaluate the distribution system of LPD? 

A I remember discussions which I did not favor that 
Frank Gomez — undertaking distribution, I felt it was superflu- 
ous and not necessary, and frankly, that was a proper role of 
the Public Affairs office of the Department of State, and he 
kept bringing- the proposal up from time to time, but I never 
endorsed or was aware that we had done that, and when I 
found out later on that there was some semblance contract, I, 
frankly, was flabbergasted. 

Q What did these contractors do for LPD while you 
were, at least technically , the person to whom they were 
reporting? 

A Well, rather quickly, Frank became the primary 
handler for defectors, which is why the contracts got larger, 
although I was not involved in that last rather large contract. 

Q When you say the contracts got larger — 

A Well, you can look at the monetary amounts. Granted 
m^ time periods were Idiijsa , but in fact the last contract 
that I was involved in, I think, was supposed to be, although 
I think it was actually ratified by the time I had left the 
State Department, the $90,000, I think, was supposed to be a 
full fiscal year contract. 

Q For fiscal year 1985? 



Right. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



716 



UIR$ffSSm«p:T 



100 



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I think actually it wasn't processed and signed off 



Q Which would have run from October 1st — 

A 1984. 

Q To September? 

A Although I don't think it was ratified actually 
until September of 1985. It was ratified after I left. 

Q What do you mean by ratified? 

A 
on. It was 

Q Retroactive? 

A From my understanding. 

Q How did that work? I mean how could you have a 
retroactive contract for $90,000? 

A Because the contracting as you, I think, may be 
painfully aware from what you have heard, I have not read the 
Inspector General's report, the contracting office was not 
run exactly like the Swiss Railway. They kept saying there 
was no sort of problems with this thing, so on the basis of 
actually no problems with IBC, IBC did undertake some activi- 

tlM. 

Going back to referring to the larger cunounts, they are 
larger for two reasons, one of which, the $90,000, was a full 
fiscal year, whereas some of the eaurlier ones were shorter 
periods of time. Secondly, IBC started taking on the care 
and feeding of these Salvador an and later, Nicaraguan, defec- 
tors, and as I said to the Inspector General, it was implicit 



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and it maybe should have been explicit, but it was implicit 
in the contract, and with the contract office, that an awful 
lot of those out-of-pocket expenses which Gomez had been 
handling for the care and feeding of putting up the defectors 
in hotels and things like that would be borne out of the 
$90,000 contract. But he was doing an awful lot of work with 
defectors. 

Q That was most graphic. Where did he get these 
defectors? How did they come to him? 

A Coming through the formal channels. They come 
either through the U.S. embassies — 

Q Were they turned over^^^^^^^^Hto Gomez? 

A 




lere was an incident 
before I ever arrived, a rather embarrassing incident, of, 
I think, a Salvadoran guerilla who recanted in front of a 
press conference on the hill, and we didn't want to have that 
repeated ever again. They originally would come in through 
our embassies ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H things 
that. They were not something just, you know, we picked up. 

Q And then what would happen, once they came in? 

A I wasn't privy to that portion. I mean usually they 
would be handled 



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and then they would be, when they got to 

Frank would take over the care and feeding of them. 




A I wasn't really aware of exactly how it happened 
Usually either we would pick them up 

Airport. 

Q How did you know when they were coming in 

A The embassy would notify 
We didn't do it by ouiji board. 

Q I understand that. I am just trying to determine 
who was handling these defectors, and who turned them over 

to you. 

A That portion usually was handled by early on, 
Peter Romero, or later on--the name escapes me, another Foreign 
service officer that we had who had served in our embassies 
in Nicaragua who had worked directly with ARA, Central Ameri- 
can office, we had Foreign Service officers that were handl- 
ing that. That was not my area of expertise. 

Q But this is what Frank Ckjmez was doing? 
A Frank, after they were brought up to Washington, yes 
Q When you said that wasn't your area of expertise- 
A I am talking about the actual transmittal, how they 
got from^^^H That should be handled by a Foreign 
service oSce^rking, who understands the area. When they 



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arrive in Washington, that is completely different, but the 
actual handling of by the embassy ^^^^^^^^^^^Band other 
people wasn't handled by me. 

Q Let me ask you again. Are you saying either that 
the Foreign Service, that the State Department handled these 
defectors after they came in and brought them to Washington? 

A No. 

Q The answer is no. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: After they came into where — 

MR. OLIVER: The embassies. He indicated they came 

the embassies ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 or 

THE WITNESS: The answer is that the Foreign Service 
officers would take care of making sure that they were taken 
care of at the eftibassy level, and they would work^^^^^^^H 

Ito m£Jte sure that they were finished 
with the defector, and at that point, arrangements would 
be made, usually through a Foreign Service officer in our 
office with the State Department to send them out. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Who paid to send them out? Did LPD pay for it? 

A I am not really sure. I never certified that any 
funds should be issued for GTR's or airline tickets or some- 
thing like that, but I couldn't swear by it. I think that 
in some cases things like the Gulf and Carribean Council 
paid for those people, but I can't tell you, who paid for 



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104 



each person. ^ 

Q Who is the Gulf Carribean Foundation? 

A It was run by a former Congressman, Dan Kuykendall. 

Q And what did they do? 

A They were very interested in the area obviously, and 
were sort of a public interest group, for lack of anything 
else. 

I; 

Q Are you telling me that the embassies turned these 
people over to the Gulf and Carribean Foundation? 

A No. 

Q And they were turned over to you? 

A I am not saying that but I am talking about their 
domestic affairs, there is an inference in your question 
about that, I never certified with the State Department that 
funds should be used for bringing" them up. I thought that 
once the U.S. Government sort of finished with them^^^^^^H 

some private groups I assumed paid 
for them, but I can't tell you who they were, and in certain 
cas«8, I think I gave the example of the Gulf and Carribean 
Council, but I can't say anything further than that. 

Q What was the relationship of the Gulf and Carribean 
Council to LPD? 

A Itwas friendly. It is like asking if America's 
.^gSeh is friendly with other areas, but we didn't work hand 
in glove, and frankly, it was not all that effective of a 



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group. 



Q When did you meet Dan Kuykendall for the first time? 

A I don't know, sometime probably late in 1984-early 
1985. 

Q How did you meet him? 

A I think I was introduced to him by Richard Miller. 

Q Do you remember the circtomstances? 

A No. '"' ' '''' ' " ■ ' ■• 

Q What was Dan Kuykendall 's role in the legislative 
effort to secure assistance for the contras? 

A I never really was sure. A lot of people took all 
sorts of credit, for all sorts of activities. I never really 
was sure what his was. I got the feeling that Kuykendall was 
basically, as a former member, able to talk to other members 
in a fashion that we are pr«Aibited ' by statute from doing. But 
I never watched Dem Kuykendall in action. 

Q Did you ever attend any meetings with Dan Kuykendall? 

A Yes I did, but I never saw him in action on the Hill. 



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Q Where were the meetings that you attended? 

A He had an office on the Hill, off the Hill. 

Q 517 Third Street? 

A That sounds familiar. 

Q What did you do at those meetings? 

A Mostly listen. They were basically pep rallies, 
because people like Cruz, Calero and Robelo would be there, 
and Kuykendall would talk £ibout how we are X short on this 
vote or that vote. I was there maybe three or four times. 

Q And you talked about? 

A I didn't talk. 

Q Do you remember being at Dan Kuykendall 's 
town house during the 1985 period? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Do you remember a particular meeting at 4 o'clock 
on March 1st at Dan Kuykendall 's town house, at which the 
participants were Dem Kuykendall, Jack Abramov, Sam Dickens, 
Jia Denton, Lynn Bouchet, Walt Raymond, Otto and yourself, 
a»A Oliver North? 

A I remember a meeting and em afternoon aUbout that 
time, and I remember some people being there. I know all 
those people with maybe one exception. No, I know them 
all, and we have all been in a room at one point or 
another, but I can't testify that those people — I would 
be very surprised, especially if Walt was there- 



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Q Why? 

A Because legislative, congressional stuff usually 
wasn't his area at all. He was more concerned over the 

<. 1 ^ 

Socialist .international, things like that, than the Hill. 

Q Didn't you discuss the legislative situation in 
those weekly meetings in Walt Raymond's office 



^r 



A No. Maybe tangentially. Everything. — this is 
the world's smallest city^ but that was not Walt's interest. 



:^ 



I mean, there were people like Burkhart and Constantin 

,^ c^S <4.'sou« i'4- '-^r- ■ 

that might race) but that dog won't hunt. 

Q This meeting that took place in the afternoon 
in the spring, what was discussed at this meeting? Was 
it a legislative strategy meeting? 

A I think it was sort of an attempt to compare 
notes on where we were and how many votes short we were, 
and things like that. Frankly they were not the most 
effective group, because I don't think a lot was accom- 
plished with them, but I think it was basically to take stock 
at how mauiy votes short we were and what our chances were, 
and who the contra leaders had to go call on, £md things 
like that. 

Q When they talked about who the contra leaders 
had to go call on, is that what you and Otto were supposed 



to do? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



724 



UHCIASHSiiT 



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1 Q Is to arrange those things? 

2 A We were supposed to be there in case there were 

3 concerns of members to do other things. No, we never did 

4 that. If they were officially going to be conveyed by the 

5 administration, they were to be handled by the State 

6 Department, the legislative affairs shop. Occasionally 

7 Congressman Kuykendall would set things up on his own. 

8 We never were involved in that activity. We were there 

9 primarily to say these are the concerns, or Congressman X 

10 has got this concern. This is how we can provide it. We 

11 were not sort of supplementary. 

12 Q Were there any Congressmen present? 

13 MR. CHRISTMAS: At that meeting or other 

14 meetings? 

15 BY MR. OLIVER: 

'tg Q Any of the meetings that took place at Dan 

17 Kuykendall 's town house? 

18 A Not when I was there. 

19 "' Q How many of those meetings did you attend? 

20 A I don't know, three, four, five. I cannot be 

21 precise. Not more than a few. They were not the most 

22 productive use of my time . 

23 Q Was Oliver North at those meetings? 

24 A I think he was at almost every one. 

25 Q And was Otto^ Reich^a^y^gflf^ggtings? 



IS Otto Reich at those meetii 



725 



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109 



A He may have been at one, but I don't remember 
Otto being at many. 

Q Did you all discuss the situation in Central 
America with these people? Was that your purpose there, 
tell them what was going on? 

A Well, we would talk about what we thought our 
best argiunents were on the Hill, which we did not think 
we were getting out. This sounds like a broken record. 
Primarily the huge amount at that point of arms that were 
going in, Soviet arms. 

Q Did you make available materials to these people 
to use in their lobbying efforts? 

A I can't say yes and I can't say no. I wovjld like 
to say no but there will be a 2 percent chance* Anything 
that we made available was publicly available. 

Q I'm not saying it wasn't available. Did you make 
avail2Q}le materials? 

A I can't really recall. 

Q Did you provide them with an arms display that 
could be utilized on Capitol Hill? 

A We tried for a long time to do that arms display, 
and the Speziker never was smitten with the idea, so the arms 
display which had been kicking around for years never made 
it, from what I'm aware of, but that was primarily the 
baby of Larry Tracy. It finally showed up at the State 

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Department after I left. 

Q Where did the arms come from? 

A Most of them were captured I think in El 
Salvador. ,: 

Q And how did you all get ahold of them? 

A They were held by the U.S. embassy. 

Q And they sent them to you? 

A They were usually sent to DoD and then DoD would 
provide them. 

Q Was there a constant flow of arms? 

A No. It was pretty small. 

Q These were mainly, 1 suppose, Soviet amd East 
European arms; is that correct? 

A Yes, that's correct, with also, I think, an M-16 
that could be traced to Vietneun. 

Q How did Rich Miller and Frank Gomez report to 
you on their activities? 

A Rich Miller never reported to me. I occasionally 
woald get a phone call from Rich because he apparently was 
the business partner at the end of the deal and say, you 
know, we haven't gotten paid, which is infeunous for the 
State Department, not to pay the people, and we were in 
hurting shape. This was in the early days of IBC, but 
Rich never really reported to me. Framk would come to our 
office more often than not, but occasionally I would go 



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^mmm 



111 



over to IBC's offices. 

Q You would go to IBC's offices and what would you 
do at IBC's offices? a< — 

A I would talk to Frank about what ^\\. had done by 
IBC. It got to be fairly awkward, I must admit. IBC — 
Rich was working on the same sort of account with other 
clients, although he really didn't have the expertise in the 
area, and so there was some overlap, but Rich and I never 
worked, you know. Rich never worked for me nor did I give 
him any instructions . 

Q But IBC worked for you? 

A Well, it was odd. It was sort of like a law 
firm, one lawyer working with one client and another lawyer 
working with another client, and they happened to be in the 
same area, so IBC, yes, did work for us, but Frank Gomez 
was the one that I considered the contractor. We contracted 
with IBC specifically based on the expertise of Frank 



Cf^ 



Goaaz, and I know I have been told to keep it shorts -#** | -T 
vm had been told by Ollie North to contract IBC on the 
basis of Rich Miller, we would have told him "take a flying 
leap," because Rich Miller had absolutely no expertise 
in Central American affairs. 

Q Did Ollie North tell you to contract with Frank 



Gomez? 



At no point. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



728 



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Q Did you introduce Ollie North to Rich Miller? 

A I can't tell you. I may have, I may have not. 
I don't know. 

Q When did you first meet Rich Miller? 

A In 1980. 

Q When did you first meet him in his IBC role? 

A Sometime in '84. 

Q Do you recall attending luncheon at IBC's 
offices on September 10, 1984? 

A I recall attending lunches at IBC. I can't tell 
you the date. 

Q This would have been the first time that Oliver 
North went to IBC and there was a lunch according to his 
calendar, and to other testimony, that took place at IBC's 
headquarters on September 10, 1984, emd you were present. 
Otto Reich was present? 

A I don't know specifically — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse me, counsel. You are not 
asking him if that is true, are you, that that is the first 
time Oliver North went to IBC's office? 

MR. OLIVER: It's the first time we have any 
indications that he went to IBC's office, counsel, and I'm 
asking him whether he recalls this luncheon meeting with 
Oliver North, yourself, Frank Gomez, Rich Miller, and 



Otto Reich. 



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THE WITNESS: I don't recall it, but I won't 
dispute that it may have occurred. I mean it would have 
been not unusual, but I don't recall it. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Do you remember discussing with Oliver North 
contractual arrangements for Frank Gomez? 

A No . 

Q Do you remember meeting with Oliver North and 
Otto Reich, Rich Miller and Frank Gomez, and discussing 
a new and larger contract for them, in September of 1984? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall how the IBC contract for fiscal 

1985 was negotiated? 

A No, because I didn't do the actual negotiation, 
c^ — 
although I showed up as the ci'TR. That was done with 

Frauik Gardner. He was our adm^in, person. 

Q Did he initiate it? 

A No, I think Frank Gomez initiated it. 

Q Did you clear? 

A Yes . 

Q The increased compensation? 

A Right. 

Q Had you discussed what was going to be done under 
that contract with Oliver North? 

A I don't think so. 



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Q How often did you meet with Oliver North when you 
were LPD? 

A That's hard. Originally not very often. Later 
on, as probably his calendar shows, a lot, primarily 
because, as I'm known in the Executive Branch, I can be a 
real pain in the ass and persistent, and I saw Ollie 
primarily around times of congressional activity, but also 
when I thought that Cru2 and Robelo were getting screwed 
by the U.S. Government, and I was in effect their emissary 
in the U.S. Government, so that is why I saw Ollie a lot. 

Q Did you work out of his office for part of the 
time? ^ 

A I did for approximately two weeks during tKe 
congressional - ti ii ie . I was put on the White House clearance 
list, and was asked, because the legislative affairs people 
at the NSC asked me, to be available to do work, so for 
approximately two weeks, three weeks, I was operating out 
of his office. 

Q And that was in 1985? 

A Spring of '85. 

Q Were Rich Miller and Frank Gomez operating out 
of that office during that period of time also? 

A They were there but I don't think they were 
operating out of there. 

Q Did you ever indicate to them that they should 



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work for any period of time out of Oliver North's office? 

A No. Maybe we should go to nightcrawlers instead 
of artificial lures. 

Q I don't know what you are referring to. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: I'm sure nothing personal. 
MR. OLIVER: We will go on down the list here 
and see what we can learn. 

BY MR. OLIVER: What did you do during the period 
of time that you worked out of Oliver North's office? 

A As I say, I was there primarily working most 
closely with Chris Lehman and Ron Sable who were the 
legislative affairs people at the NSC. 

Q Why weren't you working out of their office? 

A They didn't have any office. There happened 
to be a vacant office in the political military section 
that was caused by a vacancy at the NSC, and besides which, 
you know, 01 lie, as everyone has learned, is always the 
center of attention even among things that he is not 
involved in, amd Ollie was the one that originally 
requested it, but I ended up working more closely with 
Sable than I did with North. 

Q Did you indicate to people in the bureaucracy 
at the State Department on any occasion that you can recall 
that the White House wanted these contracts expedited and 



executed? 



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A No. 

Q Did you indicate to anyone in the bureaucracy 
that Oliver North wanted to have these contracts executed 
or payments on them accelerated? 

A No . 

Q Are you aware of Oliver North intervening on 
behalf of IBC in the spring of 1985 to have payments 
accelerated on their contract? 

A I would not be surprised, because it is the type 
of thing that Rich would probably attempt to do, but I was 
not aware of it. 

Q Why would you not be aware of it if you were the 
COTR on the contract? , , 

A I don't know. I'm sajying I wouldn't be surprised, 
but I wasn't told that, and I didn't deal with the 
contracting people or the memagement people. 

Q On the IBC contracts you did not deal with — 

A No, that was always handled, the foot work and 
pBbnes went into the administrative people. 

Q When you say your administrative people, what 
do you mean? 

A Originally Matthew Freedman and then Frank 
Gardner. 

Q And would Oliver North have dealt directly? 

A No, I would be very surprised. I have no knowledge 

layniiooiri'-^ 



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1 of that intersection. It wouldn't make any difference to 

2 us. Contrary to popular opinion, we were not a wholly 

3 owned subsidiary of Oliver North, I thin Jc, 

4 Q Are you aware of Frank Garnder intervening on 

5 behalf of the IBC indicating to them that the White House 
g and the NSC wanted them to be paid in an accelerated 
7 fashion? Were you ever aware of Frank Gardner making any 
3 representations about that? 

A I'm not aweure of it. 

^Q Q Did you ever discuss anything like that with 

■jj Frank Gardner? 

^2 A I have talked to Frank Gardner about IBC getting 

^2 paid because the State Department was notoriously late 

in paying any contractor. They were notoriously late in 
processing any financial data, as I learned when I didn't 
get my reimbursement for a European trip for a year. 

Q When Frank Gomez reported to you, what did he 
r^ort on? What did he tell you they were doing? 

A He came up with think pieces. He would come up 
and say, "Do you think it would be a good idea for us 
to come up with a strategy to use the contras in the 
socialist international countries?" We spent a lot of 
time worrying about Western Europe, especially Portugal, 
Spain and France, where we were getting clobbered, and 
Britli|an, from the public relations standpoint, and he came 



734 



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1 up with scenarios and game plans on how to use these people, 

2 get them out via USIA, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 

3 That is one of many examples of things that he came up with, 

4 and he should have a great deal of work produced. 

5 Q Did they report to you on a daily, weekly basis? 

6 MR. CHRISTMAS: He said day, and you were talking 

7 about Mr. Gomez. 

8 MR. OLIVER: Gomez, yes. 

9 THE WITNESS: It would be periodic. Sometimes 

10 I would see him several days in a row, sometimes I wouldn't 

11 see him for a while. Sometimes he would report to John 

12 Scaife and Scaife would tell me that he had seen Frank 

13 early that morning and what Frank had produced. 

14 BY MR. OLIVER: 

15 Q Did you ever receive a superior honor, or 

15 meritorious service aweurd for your service at the State 

17 Department? 

15 A There was talk about it. I don't remember ever 

19 r^||i»lving it. If I did, it was ex post facto and I'm sure 

20 they would like to retract it. 

21 Q When you say you heard about it, where did you 

22 hear about it? ■'• '-'■'■ 

23 A I heard from people after the fact that a bunch 

24 of people in LPD were going to be nominated in a group, 

25 but I don't know what ever happened. I don't have it 



IIMCIIRSIF'ED 



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suitable for framing on my study wall. 

Q Did you draft a memorandum or a form related to 
the superior honor, meritorious service award? 

A I never drafted one. If I signed one, I wouldn't 
be surprised, but I wouldn't have included me unless it was 
a group award. I frankly thought it was not a good idea. 
Ambassador Reich, however, felt that an awful lot of 
people did an awful lot of work and deserved it. The first 
proposal I think was drafted by Matthew Freedman. 

Q How did you interact with the White House at 
LPD? What was the relationship with the White House ? I'm 
not talking about the NSC, because I know we talked about 
your weekly meetings with Walt Raymond and your interaction 
with Oliver North. I'm talking sdaout the rest of the White 
House now. 

A Well, from a professional standpoint, because 
I had lots of friends over there, I spent most of my time 
dealing either with the public liaison office, which during 
BHBit of this time it was headed by Ambassador Faith 
Whittlesey, and to a lesser extent with the White House 
press office. I would attend a weekly meeting that was 
chaired by Bob Sims in the situation room that would have 
all the foreign policy press people, Bernie Kalb and 
other people there, but most of my time was spent basically 
in liaison with the public liaison office. Ambassador 

nii<»iMc>oi.-.'-> 



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Whittlesey, Morton Blackwell, Bob Riley and other people. 

Q You indicated earlier that there was some 
difficulty with the public liaison office. What were you 
referring to? 

A Well, they had a tendency to be very enthusiastic, 
and I would say they were like a bull in a china shop^ 
awi^T^l though yrc may have been perceived a4*>4n as wild < 
people 4fl the State Departments at the White House^ we were 
considered pinstriped, squishy, Foggy Bottom types. 

Q How did you interact with Pat Buchanan? 

A I interacted with Pat a lot. During the legis- 
lative affairs activities we had a session called the 
208 Group. Pat Buchanan had public liaison report to him, 
as director of communications, and we kept him apprised of 
what was going on, because from time to time we would get 
a lot of heat from the State Department bureaucracy that 
we were going too fast, and it was frankly felt that it 
would be a good idea to have the director of White House 
coianinications on our side and aware of what we were 
doing. 

Q So you made him aware of what you were doing? 

A Well, he chaired a meeting, a public affairs 
meeting, anytime there was a run up on legislative 
activities, there would be a parallel group called the 208 
Group that was held in 208 Old Executive Office Building 



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which Pat Buchanan chaired, at which there would be people 
from State Department legislative affairs. White House 
legislative affairs. White House public affairs, Larry 
Speakes' office, communications, public liaison, and he 
chaired the group. It was basically to get the message out 
from the meeting . 

Q Are you familiar with the term white propaganda? 
A Yes, I eun. 

Q Did you engage in that in LPD? 
A I would say yes. If anyone understands what 
white propaganda is, it's totally appropriate. 

Q How would you describe it? .,:-,,,. ., ^ . j, ^. 
A It's only used — • j.,'.. ..;. a w .^>, • ••: 

MR. CHRISTMAS: The question is, what is white 
propaganda? i. i . 

THE WITNESS: White propaganda is actually 
putting out truth, straight information, not deception, 
not disinformation, and having it basically sourced. You 
don't try to cover up the source or anything else like 
that. It's opposed to black propagandajit got its termi- 
nology because white propagemda is^^isinformation. It's 
an old intelligence term. And unfortunately I probably 
used it a little loosely, but it's exactly what we did. 
caitxyq MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Miller Exhibit 5. 

r .. , nMni aocig'cn 



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(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 5 
was marked for identification.) 



BY MR. OLIVER: 



Q This document is a confidential "eyes only" 
memorandum to Pat Buchanan from Jonathan Miller, dated 
March 18, 1985. Subject is "Editorial in Washington Post." 
Did you send that memorandum to Pat Buchanan? 

A Apparently did. 

Q Is that your signature? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q This memorandua says that "the attached editorial 
from yesterday's Nashington Post signifies the approach 
that we're going to need to take In order to capture 
moderates and liberals on the Rill for the President's 
Nicaraguan progran. This editorial is a direct result of 
a Washington media tour that our office (through one of 
our outside consultants) arranged for the Nicaraguan 
opposition leader Alfonso Robelo." 

Who was your outside consultant? 

A I think it was Frank Goows. 

Q Was the purpose of this tour to try to get 
favorable media coverage for his point of view? 

A I think it was basically* Alfonso Robelo^ not 
surprisingly happened to support our position, and frankly 
Alfonso Robelo was one of the most articulate members of 
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the opposition, and felt that he was the type of person that 
could actually put the proper perspective on our policy. 

Q Did the Washington Post know that your office 
had arranged this tour for Alfonso Robelo? 

A I don't know. I wouldnot be at all surprised, 
because we worked directly with people like Steve Rosenfeld, 
who probably wrote the editorial, and I don't think it would 
have changed the message at all anyway. This is one 
activity that .while I shouldn't have maybe bragged about it, 
is absolutely appropriate and proper. 

Q And so what you were doing was arranging 
through an outside consultant to have an opposition leader 
moved around to various media representatives and media 
outlets, in order to promote your point of view? 

A On some occasions because we just didn't have 
enough bodies. We actually on many occasions did it 
directly out of our office. I meem at the State Department, 
w« »ay the State Department and we would talk to Night Line 
a«fS say, "Look Robelo might be available; what do you 

think? He is the type of person you ought to look at. You 

c 
are going to have , JDreign Minister DeSoto on," or some- 

A 

thing like that. There's nothing wrong with that. 

Q Why did you send a blind copy to Walt Raymond? 

A Primarily I think because Pat wanted, felt that 
there were people that were a little too cautious, and 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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he was not wild about the NSC, and other people in the 
White Rouse. There was also frankly a strong disagreement , 
between, as there always has been, the connunications 
office and the press secretary's office. That is why 
Bob Sims was do%ni there, but I wanted then to be aware of 
what I was sending Pat. 

Q But you didn't want hin to be aware that you 



X'a sure that you have sent carbon copies your- 

h 



were sending it to them? 

A 
self. X just wanted then to be aware — 

Q Row do you know that? 

A You may be the only person in the ffestern 
Hemisphere. At any rate, this frankly was making sure that 
everybody was plugged in. That Pat felt that he was in 
charge of coaosunications activities, but I didn't think it 



was fair to let Pat know, and not let Malt and Bob Sims 
know. Bob Sims was the foreign press secretary at the 
Nhite Boose, to Larry Speakes, . i eje t ge depuLj p r ess 



Q But you did not know that the Washington Post 
was informed? 

A No, X did not. 

Q That this was your office that was doing this? 

A No. 

Q Mas it your normal practice to inform? 



741 



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A We didn't go about being clandestine about it, 
because we felt we ran and I still feel we ran a very honest 
and above-board shop. It wouldn't have made any difference 
to me if Frank had gone ahead and said, "I'm under 
contract." Most people in the media knew that he was a 
consultant to the State Department. 

MR. OLIVER: Let's take a five-minute break. 
(Recess.) 






\ • "•■ ■.' ■* 



I'; 



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'iZt.: .'• ..",• 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. OLIVER: 

<«~ Q He were discussing the white propagainda operation. 
A Yes. , 

Q How did that work? How did you promote this white 
propaganda operation? 

A The ten "white propaganda", when seen in print, 
is a scary term, but basically we prided ourselves, in fact 
had very strong disagreements with certain people, including 
Colonel North, on the fact we could never engage in dis- 
information. Mhen we used the broadest interpretation of 
"white propaganda" , it was we would only always tell the 
truth and not engage in disinformation. 

There were people who felt in the intelligence 
community this was a proper role, but we felt it was not 
commensurate with public diplomacy activities. That is why 
it was called a "white propaganda operation". 

Q You had disagreements with the people in the 
intelligence connunity about this white propaganda issue? 

A There are people who think you have to fight dis- 
information with disinformation. I don't agree. I had very 
strong arguments with Colonel North on that. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this as Miller Exhibit Number 6. 

(Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.) 



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BY MR. OLIVER: , 

Q Do you recall sending this memorandum to Pat 

Buchanan, Mr. Miller? 

A Vaguely. 

Q This is a memorandum to Pat Buchanan from Johnathan 
Miller, dated March 13, 1985, subject: "White Propaganda" 
Operation. And it gives five illustrative examples of the 
"Reich white propaganda operation." The first reference is 
to an attached copy of an op-ed piece that ran in the Wall 
Street Journal and indicates that Professor Guilmartin, who 
is the author of the article, collaborated with our staff on 
the writing of this piece. It says officially this 
office had no role in its preparation. 

Actually, you did have a role in its preparation, 
did you not? 

A I think we did. I can't tell you specifically what 
it was. But I think I do remember I think there was some 
cooperation. 

Q Was there a contract with Professor Guilmartin to 
write this article? 

A I knew there was a contract with Professor Guil- 
martin. I don't recall whether it was for this specifically. 
I knew that Colonel Jacobowitz was a strong proponent of 
Guilmartin' s competency in this area. I knew that we had 
some contact, but I don't remember what it was specifically 



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about . 

Q Did you have anything to do with that? 

A I don't recall. You may prove me wrong, but I don't 
recall. 

Q Did you realize at the time that Professor Guil- 
martin had not identified himself as a contractor to S/LPO? 

A By looking at these, assuming this is a full 
xerox, by looking at it, I should have known. 

Q But you indicated in your memorandum that officially 
this office had no role in its preparation. Were you indi- 
cating that you were masking your office role? 

A No, Z am not indicating that at all. I am indi- 
cating we may have provided him with information, but we 
didn't actually write it. 

Q Did you provide him with the material that was 
used in the article? 

A Z personally did not, but Z assume that some of 
it did come from our office. . 

Q Zn the second paragraph, you indicate a NBC news 
piece was prepared by Francis. Z assume Francis Gomez, is 
that right? 

A No, Fred Francis, who is the DOD, then-DOD/NBC 
reporter. 

Q And he consulted two of our contractors. Who were 



the two contractors? 



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I think it was probably Colonel Richardso^^nd 



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Frank Gomez, 




Q The third paragraph indicates that two op-ed 
pieces for the Washington Post, New York Times are being 
prepared for the signatures of the triple "A". Did the 
Washington Post and the New York Times know that those op-ed 
pieces had been prepared by your office? 

A I don't know, and I don't even know they ran. 

Q Did they run? j ''-- 

nun ilCOirir "> 



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1 A I don't know. I have no knowledge. 

2 Q Who were the two — who was the consultant who 

3 prepared these two op-ed pieces? 

4 A I think it probably was Frank Gomez . 

5 Q Was it the normal practice of your office 

6 to prepare op-ed pieces for other people's signatures with- 

7 out attribution to LPD? 

8 A I don't recall us ever having anything attributed to 

9 our office. 

10 Q But you do recall preparing a number of articles? 

11 A I personally, myself, do not, but there were 

12 articles prepared in the office, yes. 

13 Q These were articles prepared by consultants? 

14 A In certain cases, in certain cases employees. 

15 Q Frank Goawz was a consultant for whom you were 

18 the technical representative, is that correct? 
17 A That is correct. 

19 Q So you knew he was preparing these articles? 

19 Nit. CHRISTMAS: He has already stated. Counsel, 

20 soaetlnes contractors will do it, and sometimes employees. He 

21 has already stated it. 

22 MK. OLIVER: I am asking whether he knew Frank 

23 Gomez prepared such articles. 

24 MR. CHRISTMAS: It has been asked and answered. 

25 Do not answer it again. He has answered it consistently in 
the same way. 11111^1 JCClP'r?*^ 



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BY MR. OLIVER; 

Q Did you ask Frank Gomez to prepare op-ed articles? 

A I don't recall ever asking him to. I know that he 
prepared them. 

Q In the next paragraph you say, "Through a^cut-out, 
we are having the opposition leader Alphonso ra^ello visit 
the following news organizations while he is in Washington 
this week". Who was the cut-out? 

A Probably Frank. •; 

Q Why were you using a cut-out? 



n 




Q What do you mean by the phrase "cut-out"? 

A Cut-out is just the person who is in between you 
and them, which -- it means you got an intermediary. I 
probably should have used that word. It is not as sinister 
as it appears. 

Q Is cut-out, in your experience, a term used in 
intelligence activities? 

A Loosely. As you can tell, as a layman, I do things 



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that aren't necessarily correct. For instance, this was a 
confidential 'eyes only", it wasn't meant to be classified 
confidential "eyes only" in the intelligence sense. It was 
meant to be confidential in the sense I don't want your 
secretary opening this type of thing, and cut-out is the seune 
way. I do not profess to be an intelligence officer, and 
that is a very loose phrase. 

Q Nhy didn't you want anybody seeing this but Pat 
Buchanan? 

A Because Z don't think, especially given the ability 
for the White House to leak like a sieve, Z didn't. want every- 
body in the world going around leaking this sort of thing. 

Q In the next paragraph you indicate "Attached is a 
copy of a cable we received fra« Managua." Z assume that is 
a cable froa the eaOMSsy. Zs that correct? 

A Yes. We didn't have cable capability to the 
govemaent. 

Q And the cable states that CongresssMn I,agos>arsino 
toiak up Daniel Ortega's offer to visit any place in Nicaragua. 
And go«a on to talk about that. 

The next-to-the-last sentence says, "As the cable 
notes, the Congressman's request to visit is denied." Zt 
says, "Do not be surprised if this cable somehow hits the 
evening news." Does that mean that you were intending to 
leak this cable to the evening news? 



UNCLASS1CE3 



14 



URSMSSmKtT 



133 



1 A I don't know what the classification was, but I 

2 don't think the cable itself may havey> received -**•• Somebody 

3 in our office may have given a heads-up to one of the news 

4 organizations without actually reading them the cable. 

5 Q Did they tell you they were going to do that? 
g A I can't recall specifically. If I wrote this, 
f there is obviously that possibility. I am not denying it. 
g Q Did the information in that cable reach the evening 
n news? 

^Q A I can't remember. And if it did, it was a non-stoi^y. 
y^ Q Was it the normal practice of your office to pro- 

^2 vide the evening news with cables that related to Congressmen's 

^2 activities in Nicaragua? 

A It was never our office's normal or abnormal 

^g operations to provide ceUsles to evening news organizations. 

^g Synopses might be passed on in passing. But it depends on 

y. what the classification of that cable was. Frankly, it was 
probably -AM), I don't know, which is not an official classi- 



fication. , 

Q What is your understanding of what AXrt) means? 
A It means administratively held but not seen by 

the security people as a security classification. It starts 

with confidential and goes on up. 

Q It also means it is not to be shared with people 

outside of official channels, isn't that correct? 



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That is correct. But, as I said, I am not sure 



: sure rL^ 

if w* actually gave them the cable. I would say an tOM 
cable, the bottoa line Congressman Lagomarsino was turned 
down by the Sandinistas, is not exactly blood curdling stuff. 

Q Who in your office would have told you this cable 
might hit the evening news? 



It could have been Colonel Richard 



.r 



Q Do you know whether or not it was Colonel 
Richards^ •'""' It '. 

A No, I do not. ^ 

Q In the last paragraph, you indicate that "Our 
office has been crafted to handle the concerns that you have 
in getting the President's program for the freedom fighters 
enacted." What did you metm by that? 

A We were walking a very thin line. We were 
trying to make, and we felt like we were constantly on a 
high wire. We wanted to be a catalyst to the inner agency 
coHBiinlty. At the same token, we wanted to be a brake to 
tl^ conservatives , and we were constantly getting battled 
both ways. 

And so this was an attempt to make Pat believe that 
there were activists in the government, but at the seune time 
responsible people. We had real concerns that if we did not 
take the lead, they would start being free agents, and in 
cases, the public liaison people were, and this is part of 



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my attempt to assure Pat we were on top of things and to 
calm his public liaison people down. 

Q So you sent him these illustrative examples of 
what you called a white propaganda operation? 

A Right. 
And th 
say, are one of indicating a*^ loat return ed article done by a 
consultant to your office without attribution to your 
off ice, is a clandestine trip by your contractors to a freedom 
fighter camp in Nicaragua, op-ed pieces being prepared for 
contra leaders by contractors in your office for their 
signature, the use of a cut-out and indication that a cable 
is going to be leaked to the evening news? 

A It is your assumption, which is — you are entitled 
to make. I am not sure that I agree with it. 

Q Which part of it don't you agree with? 

A What is your question? I mean — 

Q I mean, is it fair to say that that is what this — 

A If you want to go point by. point, again, and rebut 
it, I think you could make a different interpretation, but 
you are entitled to that. Reasonable men differ. 

Q The document can speak for itself. 
I would like to — who is Wes Egan? 

A I thinkhe was Executive Assistant to Deputy 

Secretary BuuK Otto had a tendency to report through the 
n^a^m m ^ 



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136 



1 State Department chain primarily, once Larry Eagleburger 

2 left, to Secretary Bommi, and Wes Eagan was his Executive 

3 Assistant. 

4 Q Do you know Spitz Channel 1? 

5 A I have never met the man. I have seen him once. 

6 Q When did you see him? 

7 A I saw him one time when I was in Ollie North's 

8 office, either when I was on the NSC staff or at the White 

9 House, and I went by to say hello to Fawn. 

10 Q Did you know of the work that Rich Miller and Frank 

11 Gomez were doing for Spitz Channell? 

12 A No, not at first. I kept hearing of this infamous 

13 Spitz Channell 's neune as early as spring of '85 in relation 

14 to a fund-raiser there, but that was about all my knowledge 

15 of Spitz Channell. 

Ig Q Did you know that Spitz Channell was raising funds 

^7 for the resistemce? 

18 A No. 

^g Q Did Oliver North ever tell you of his relationship 

20 with Spitz Channell? 

2^ A No. I know I am supposed to keep it short, but 

22 you have to realize I left in August of '85, and once I 

left, I ceased to have anything to do with Central America, 
Q Were you aware of the briefing that was held in 

the White House in June of 1985 where Spitz Channell 's 



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contributors and 01 lie North gave a briefing? 

A I wa« aware at some point 01 lie North gave a 
briefing with Spitz Channell and sooe other people, but it 
had nothing to do with rae. 

Here you aware that Rich Miller arranged that 
briefing for Spitz Channell? 

A No, Z wasn't. 

Q Did Frank Gomez ever indicate to you that he knew 
of Spitz Channell 's fund-raising activities on behalf of the 
contras? 

A I don't think Frank and Z had any conversations 
for about two, two-and-a-half years, maybe we had one, and 
at no time did it come up. 

Q Do you know Penn Kemble? 

A Yes. 

Q How do you know Penn Kemble? 

A Z first was introduced to him by Otto a long time 
ago because he was working with religious groups and was 
pact of /A Scoop Jackson Tribe, lost tribe. 

Q Were you aware of an advanced copy of a New York 
Times ad to be run by PRODEMCA that was sent to your office? 

A Z was aware they were going to do one, but Z 
wasn't involved in that ad. 

Q How did you become aware of it? 

A I think it was just said they were going to purchase 



UNOLMSlEia 



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1 an ad that was going to strap them financially, 

2 Q Did Otto Reich tell you about that? 
3" A I can't recall. It is possible, 

4 Q Did Otto Reich ever show you the copy for the ad? 

5 A It is possible. But I didn't think anything of 

6 it. 

7 MR. OLIVER: I would like to enter this as Miller 

8 Exhibit Number 7 and ask the reporter to mark it. 

9 (Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.) 

10 BY MR. OLIVER: ' '' C 

11 Q This is a copy of a contract with John Guilmartin, 

12 Jr., who is the gentleman we have been discussing who wrote 

13 the op-ed piece in which they did not indicate the relation- 

14 ship or Mr. Guilmartin did not indicate a relationship with 

15 the Department of State. 

tg Does this exhibit refresh your memory about what 

17 Dr. Guilmartin was supposed to do for LPO in December, 1984? 
^g A Possibly. I don't even know. Who was the — 
fg Q If you look at the memo, December 14, 1984, to 

20 George Twohie from Jo Ellen Powell, you will see J. Miller. 

21 Is that your signature? 

22 A It looks like it, probably is. 

23 Q Do you remember clearing this purchase order? 

24 A I don't, but I will take your word for it. I mean, 

25 there were lots of things that I did. Obviously somebody 

UNCLASiirJtO-. 



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had X.O clear it, so I will say that I cleared it. I see I 
had a carbon to Ambassador Motley. 

Q There is a memo in there to Wes Egan, sending him 
a copy of this article, and you indicated in that memorandum 
Professor Guilmartin is a consultant to LPO. 

A Obviously, if we were trying to do things clandestini 
ly, I wouldn't send it up to the Assistant Secretary's 
office. Obviously, I didn't think there was anything wrong 
with this. • „ 

Q Did anyone ever indicate to you that Professor 
Guilmartin should have indicated his relationship with the 
State Department when he signed this article? 

A No. 

Q Did Professor Guilmartin get paid for this article 
by the Hall Street Journal? 

A I don't have any way of knowing. My knowledge of 
most op-ed pieces is that you don't get compensated for 
those. If you do, he owes the U.S. Government 500 bucks 



Q Because you paid him $5007 

A Apparently, on the basis of this. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to enter this as Miller 
Exhibit Number 8 and ask the reporter to mark it. 

(Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.) 



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BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q This is a memorandum, dated September 17, 1985, 
from Otto Reich to the Deputy Secretary about the latest 
Nicaraguan defector. Were you aware of the existence 

prior to your departure from LPD of Alvaro Jose Baldizon 

.t 
Aviles? 

I believe it was occurring at the time I was 



A 

leaving 
Q 
A 



Have you ever seen this memo before? 
No. When I checked out, I checked out. I didn't 
have anything to do with LPD at this point. 

Q May I ask you, did this — was this the usual 
practice, that which is described in this memo, for dealing 
with defectors by your office? 

A Yes, it was. There was a real sensitivity that we 
make sure he is actually telling the truth. This also, 
by the way, shows we are not totally loose cannons because 
he was keeping a Deputy Secretary apprised, also the 
principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public 
Affairs and the Latin American Bureau. 

» But that is usually the way it was done. There 
was no question about the propriety of that. 




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Q Did LPD usually have these rehearsal press confer- 
ences for the defectors — 
.A I don't know about this one. 
Q I am not asking about this one. 

A My job was not to prepare them. I don't know how 
they were prepared. Especially since my Spanish is not that 
good and everybody else there spoke very fluent Spanish. 

Q Were you aware while you were at LPD of any 
rehearsal press conferences being held with defectors? 
A No. 

MR. OLIVER: Z would like to enter this as Miller 
Exhibit Number 9. 

(Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q The date on this is Nay 30, 1985, to the Secretary, 
and it obviously refers to the Mew York Times advertisement 
being nin by PRODEMCA, which we discussed earlier. Were you 
aware of this SMSiorandum being sent to Otto by the Secretary? 

A I may have been, and I don't see anything wrong 
with it. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: n^e question is were you aware. 
THE WITNESS: No. I may have been. I may have 
proofed it for typos, I don't know, 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q When you indicate that, or when Otto indicates in 



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there PRODEMCA didn't want to give the appearance of having 
obtained "approval" from us, was that the normal relationship 
that you had with these private groups to use arms-length and 
cut-outs and so on? 

A Those are two different things. In this case, 
this I think was done independently. Penn was an old, 
close friend of Otto's. They had come out of I think the 
McGovern Ccunpaign to run it. Wait until the conservatives 
hear that. 

Q I want you to know I seriously doubt that. 

A At least Otto was involved in the McGovern Ccunpaign, 
believe it or not. They were old, dear, dear friends. We 
were worried, frankly, they were going to be damned by being 
lackies and fools of the administration which was an 
indigenous, grass-roots operation. It was done without our 
knowledge, and Penn may have shown it to them as a friend, 
and they were always sort of commiserating together. As 
you can tell by the signatories there, it is hardly a John 
Biuch Society type of group that's backing, so I am not at 
all surprised. 

But we were always very aware of PRODEMCA, since 
it was independent, being described as being one of our tools, 
which was a very bum rap for them. I think that is why Otto 
put that in there. 

Q Were you aware that Penn Kemble received funds 



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w^imm 



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z. 

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from Spitz Channell? 

A No, I was not. 

Q Were you aware Bruce Cameron received funds from 
Spitz Channell? 

A Only way after the fact, in the last couple months. 
MR. CHRISTMAS: Vlhat was the last name? 
THE WITNESS: Bruce Cameron. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Miller, did you ever learn from Colonel North 
or anyone else while you were at LPD that Oliver North was . 
involved with supplying weapons to the contras? 
A I never had any constructive knowledge. 
Q What do you mean, constructive knowledge? 
A Well, I never had any knowledge. 
Q Oliver North never indicated to you that he was 
Involved in fund-raising for the contras in any way? Is 
that your testiaony? 

A He never indicated it to me. 
Q When did you find out for the first time that 
Oliver North was involved in supplying lethal support for the 
contras? 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Actual knowledge or suspicions. 
Counsel? 
. '-■ ii- THE WITNESS: When Ed Meese made his press confer- 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q You had no knowledge of it prior to that time? 

A No. 

Q When did you first become aware Oliver North was 
providing monetary assistance to the contras? 

MR, CHRISTMAS: Actual knowledge or suspicions? 
MR. OLIVER: Knowledge. 

THE WITNESS: I would say, if you are using a 
broad interpretation of contras, the day that money was 
received by Arturo Cruz. 
.S«:oc « BY MR. OLIVER; 

Q You did not know prior to that of any funding made 
availetble to them by the U.S. Government? 

A No. Well, in this case, it wasn't made by the U.S. 
Government I don't think, but you asked about Colonel North 
personally. 

Q The funds were given to you by a U.S. Government 
official and U.S. Government office. Didn't you think they 
w«p* U.S. Government funds? 

A As I stated earlier, he said that they came from 
Calero. I would have had strong reservations if they had 
been U.S. Government funds. 

Q Did you ask Rob Owen whether or not he had ever 
had any prior knowledge about these traveler's checks being 
distributed? 



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A No. Rob Owen and I had a barely eunicable relation- 
ship, and we did not discuss things too much. I didn't 
approve of his activities, so we didn't discuss things. 

Q What did you know of his activities? 

A I suspected etn awful lot, but he was a private 
citizen working for apparently, at the behest of the National 
Security Council staff, I didn't approve of that, and Colonel 
North was aware of that. 

Q What knowledge did you have of the activities of 
Frank Gomez in terms of providing assistance to the contra 
leadership? . " ' 

A Absolutely none. 

Q Do you recall a conversation with Oliver North on 
the 31st of August, 1984 related to the contract for Frank 
Gomez, telephone conversation? 

A I don't recall it. 

Q Did you keep Oliver North informed of what you 
were doing in relation to the press out of LFO? 

A Generally. But we didn't feel that he was our 
master. Occasionally we would keep him apprised, as we kept 
Walt and we kept Constantine apprised and other people, 
but I didn't give him daily reports by any stretch of the 
imagination. We didn't think he was our sort of master. 

Q Do you recall calling Oliver North on September 11, 
1984 to discuss a News Week article, CMA; or a News Week 



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article? I am not sure what topic. 

A No. 

Q Do you recall a News >feek piece on Saa Jose people? 
V. - 

A I don't right now. There were hundreds — I read 
six or eight newspapers a day, and I don't know what else. 
But I don't recall that conversation. 

Q Do you recall a conversation where you talked 
to him about Owen setting up an operation with Senator 
Symms? ^,,r^ , , , v, _ _ ^^^, - ,-f ,,, j 

No. .,r. v..^- ,-.'. ... : .- 



Did you travel to Central America in 1984? 
Yes. I thiiiJc I did. ^ 
What was the purpose of your traveling there? 
The first trip was just to get acquainted with, 
go down to Salvador, go down to Honduras, go to Nicaragua, 
talk to people in the opposition in Nicaragua. It was all 
done under the auspices of the American Embassy, and I had 
a project officer from the Public Affairs Office at each 
stop. 

Q Do you recall talking to Oliver North on September 
12, 1984 about the Sandinistas having accepted all Contadora 
conditions? 

A No, but I wouldn't be surprised if I did. 

Q How would you have known about that? 

A I don't know. I don't know whether it was through 

taigLiggiTica- 



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cabl* traffic or anything else. I mean, this is a rather 
vague question. 

Q I an actually reading from Oliver North's notes 
relating to phone calls that he attributes to you. I am 
asking if you recall — 

A I don't recall them. X wouldn't be surprised if 
they did, if we did, but I don't recall it. 

Q Oo you recall talking to him eQ>out Cruz's 
conditions having been modified? 

A I don't recall it, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

Q Hhy wouldn't you be surprised? Old you know some- 
thing Jibout Cruz's conditions being modified? 

A As I indicated to you X don't know how many tines, 
X was one of the ones indicating that they had better use 
Arturo Cruz or the President's Central America policy was 
dead on arrival, and Ollie was not a big proponent of 
Arturo Cruz, so X would not be surprised if there was some 
conversation in that regard. 

Q Do you remember calling Oliver North on September 27, 
1984 about the Ortega visit to New York and Los Angeles in 
September and October of 1984? 

A Probably. X don't recall it, though. X mean, the 
answer is X don't recall it, but I wouldn't be surprised. 

Q You do not recall anything about the conversation? 

A No. My God, I mean, I had probably 80 phone 

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conversations a day. I don't recall those things. 

Q Do you recall Oliver North having called you on the 
10th of November and asking you to contact — 
MR. CHRISTMAS: What year, sir? 
MR. OLIVER: 1984. , ^. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q — and asking you to contact Frank Gomez , having 
Gomez contact Adolpho Calero to take out a major fund-raising 
ad? .— ... - -- , ,^ .;. 

A I don't remember that. ^ 
) Q Do you remember a meeting on February 11, 1985 
with Oliver North, Otto Reich, yourself. Halt, Gomez and 
Frank Raymond about the NRF fund-raiser? 

A I remember we had lots of meetings on that. 
.,, Q What was your role in the NRF fund-raiser? 

A Originally the idea — it came up while I was on 
holiday, Christmastime, and I ceune back, and everybody was 
excited about this, and I said "I smell a rat", and I told 
«A|| I didn't think we should be involved except to the 
extent if it was a good function, it would be a good place 
for the President to make a speech, at which point we had a 
meeting in which I said to everybody, I remember, that we 
should go slow. ^ |! »„ 

- Q Who was in these meetings? Who is we? 

A I remember Otto was probably in it and either Walt 



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or Ollie, but this whole thing came about with a bunch of 
conservative people during the Christmas Holidays, and my 
concern was these were nothing but a bunch of hucksters 
ready to rip off the proceeds. 

And from that point on, I asked Otto if there was 
to be any government contact, it be me, because I was very 
queasy about the whole thing. 

Q You wanted to be the government contact? 

A If there was going to be any, because I frankly 
didn't trust other people. Z mean, I didn't, my — it turns 
out Z wasn't the only contact. There were contacts with the 
NSC. My job was basically to make sure the President of 
the United States was not walking into an embarrassing 
situation and lo and behold, he did. 

Q So you were the contact and North was the contact 
at the NSC? 

A Z don't know. He may have been. Ollie had, as 
yo« know, independent channels all the time. 1 took over the 
SlAi Department liaison with this group because Z was very 
queeay about it, and Z was afraid, Z wanted to be able to 
bail out if it was as rotten as Z sunsised it was. 

Q Mho were the people that were involved in organizing 
this dinner? 

A Z can't remember. They were a bunch of lawyers, 
and that in itself says it. They had no background in 



766 



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o,:? 



Central America affairs. "TTTey just indicted half the 
metropolitan area. 

Q Let the record show there are five lawyers in the 
room, including me, and the witness 

A I can't — 

Q You don't remember — why were you queasy about these 
people if you didn't know who they were? 

A No, I had met with them. First Otto ceune to roe 
and described what was going on. I said, "Hold it, this 
doesn't sound right." Then I met with them, and I can't 
remember who they were. It was a law firm. They were 
basically dropping all sorts of political names, they were 
going to do this and that, they had really good ideas about 
how they were going to take the proceeds, and I can smell 
W.C. Fields a mile away, and there was that all over this 
dinner. 

That is when I said, "Otto, let me take care of 
this." We basically had to have a hands-off thing, make sure 
tlMjl^ dinner is okay enough for the President to show up, 
but we are not going to be involved in it. I was worried 
the U.S. Government was going to get too involved in it. 

Q Did you know Walt Raymond and Ollie North arranged 
for a briefing at the White House in late January for the 
people they wanted to recruit to participate in this dinner? 



Yes. 



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1 Q Did you attend that? 

2 A No. Well, I may have, I can't say absolutely, 

3 but I don't recall. 

4 Q Old that function and the results of it assuage 

5 your fears about this dinner? 

6 A The dinner itself was basically to give people a 

7 flavor of the situation in Central America. What I remember 

8 had absolutely nothing to do with the selling of tickets. 

9 My concern was the integrity of people raising things for a 

10 humanitarian effort, and I had a feeling all the proceeds 

11 were going to evaporate. As it turns out, there were no 

12 proceeds. 

13 Q This meeting I am talking about, as referred to 

14 in Ollie North's notes, took place on the 11th of February, 

15 1985; you, Ollie, Frank Gomez and Walt Raymond. Do you 
'19 recall that meeting? „, 

17 A Ho, X don't recall it, but it would make perfect 

18 sensa that masting b« held. 

19 Q You recall a meeting in which a new board for this 

20 qrtnp was discussed that irould have involved Moody Jenkins 

21 and someone named Dupont or Moralier? 

22 f^ Yes. Because X was concerned that it be a group 

23 of people, if the President of the United States was going 

24 to be involved and there was going to be an actual fund- 

25 raising effort on behalf of raising money for refugees and 



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it was going to have the White House imprimatur on it, that 
there be people of integrity on the board. 

And at that time, I was really worried about the 
fact that this law firm was basically giving us bad vibes. 
And some of these people we mentioned had been actively 
involved in the humanitarian activities in the past. People 
like Woody Jenkins. 

Q Which Dupont would this have been? 

A I probably recommended Elise, Pete Dupont 's wife. 

Q Did you recommend these ncunes? 

A I think I recommended Elise, I knew her, and she 
was very good in that area. 

Q And when you — you say you recommended, who did 
you recommend these people to? 

A Just to the group. These are notes — I don't 
think she was ever approached. 

Q Was somebody in this meeting sort of in charge of 
working with this NRF group in February, 1985? i^S^ 

A Well, I attempted to and Ollie was the-fea^-charge 
person, and I had the feeling he was going to go off and run 
his own thing. I was going to try to sort of go slow and 
suggest these guys, if they were going to try to involve the 
President, better sort of clean up their act. I always got 
the feeling that they were talking to other people as well 



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1 Q Do you remember going to Managua on the 24th of 

2 February, 1985 and returning on the first of March? 

3 A Probably. That was about the time that I was going 

4 down for another — I am not sure if I went down there then. 

5 I did go to Managua sometime in '85, but I can't say it was 

6 there. There were sometimes travel orders cut that were never 

7 used. At some point in 1985, I did go down. 

8 Q How many times did you go to Managua? 

9 A Twice. 

10 Q Once would have been this time about 1985. 

11 A I eun not sure if it was then or later. Once in 

12 '84 and once in '85. 

13 Q What was the purpose of going? 

14 A Just to be up-to-speed. It was difficult to try 

15 to sit there and argue things with peopl^. I wanted to go 



f.: 



15 down and talk to the people of LaPrenYa, I wanted to 

17 talk to people in the church, things like that. Once again, 

18 I had an embassy Public Affairs Officerl everything was done 

19 tlurough the embassy. 
20 
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Q Did Walt Raymond arrange that? 

A I haven't the slightest idea. It might have been 
going on. He gave me a respectful hearing. 

Q You never followed up? 

A That was not my job. I was just coming back and 
reporting on it. I did not get as hospitable a hearing 
with Ollie. 




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Q Do you know Roy Godson? 

A Yes, but not very well. 

Q How do you know him? '. i - ,: 

A I can't remember where I first met Roy, although 
I did see him on a oho w the other day. I think I may have 
met him as I was leaving LPD, and he was working at the 
NSC as a consultant. I am not sure. 1 got to know Roy 
better in a social setting when I was at NSC. Never worked 
with him, though. 

Q Do you remember a meeting on the 18th -- well, 
do you remember a meeting in the 1985 — I can't read the 
note in this group of documents — with yourself and Rob 
Owen and Ollie North where you discussed meetings with 
Boscc, Menges, Manion and Riley? 

A Oh, yes. I don't remember that specific instance, 
but I remember my concerns over especially Bosco, and I 
wouldn't be surprised if Rob was present. 

Q Who were Menges, Manion and Riley? 

A This covers the universe obviously. Bosco was 
Adolpho Calero's spokes-person, Constantine Menges was the 
Special Assistant to the President for Latin American Affairs, 



UWA h^Ririi::\ 



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th€ National Security Council. Chris Manion is well loved 
oat Capitol Hill, and Bob Riley was Faith Whittlesey's 
sort of — is presently I think still with her in Switzerland, 
but was her public liais o n e tfi e e r. If those four people 
came up in conversation, it covered the universe. 

Q Old Chris Manion have any role in the Central 
America public diplomacy activities? 

A Not that X am aware of. 

Q Any role that, you know of with the contras? 

A Not that I an aware — well, I had always heaurd 
that Chris had his own foreign policy vis-a-vis the contras. 
I never had actual knowledge of it. 

Q Did you ever know of a press conference arranged 
for Calero at Carnegie Institute and " — 

A I may have, but I don't recall it. 

Q Do you ever remember discussing with Walt Raymond 
about funding? 

A X don't recall it, but it is conceivable. 

\fi Do you remember on the 3rd of July, it must be 

talking to Ollie North on the telephone aJx}ut ABC 

going to air a program that night on an interview with people 

in Costa Rica? Do you remember an ABC interview with people 

in Costa Rica? 

A It is conceivable, and it was probably done by 
Peter Collins, who was their correspondent do%m there. 



A 

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' Q Why would you have been calling Ollie North on 

2 tMll? 

3 A I wanted him to be aware of it. There were times 

4 I want people to see that. There was such an obsession at 

5 the White House we were getting bad press. We felt when there 

6 was a ' 'fir abla" piece coming out, they ought to be aware of 

7 it. 

8 Q On the 12th of July, according to Ollie North's 

9 notes, you had a meeting with him, and among other things 

10 that were apparently discussed were a meeting with someone 

11 named S-c-h-o-r-r. 

12 A Oh, yes. 

13 Q Do you know someone named Schorr? 

14 A I think he was one of the lawyers involved in the 

15 Nicaraguan, the refugee dinner, and they later came up with 

16 those cockamamie idea for Nicaraguan war bonds, which I thought 

17 was one of the stupidest ideas I had seen in a while, which 

18 later came out in the press. I would surmise Rob was talking 

19 j^^H^" about this bond proposal. 

20 ll^r^ ^ y^" remember discussing Schorr dealing with 

21 Singlaub? 

22 A No. 

23 Q Do you know a man named Larry Spivey? 

24 A I know of a man neuned Larry Spivey. I never met 

25 the man. 



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Q What do you know of him? 

A ^ J._ think he was involved, from what the press said, 
in eiA. I am not sure. 



All you know of him is through the press? 

Right. 

You never had any contact with him in the White 



No. 

What was the relationship of LPO to the RIG? 



Q 

A 

Q 
House? 

A 

Q 

A None. We >Mi»iH-e allowed in it, which was much 
to Ambassador Reich's consternation. We were not privy to 
it, any RIG meetings at all that I am aware of. Ambassador 
Reich may have attended one or two. Ambassador Motley 
did not think it was appropriate. 

Q Did you discuss with any of the participants in 
the RIG what went on in the RIG after these meetings, or 
outside the RIG? • -• 

A Something may have come up, but I can't say it 
dflik't, but usually that was a pretty closely held group. 
Aav w* were not looked upon as a substantive operation. We 
weren't privy to that sort of stuff. 

Q You met on a regular weekly basis in this Central 



America Public Diplomacy Group which 



nd Oliver 



North also participated in from time to time. Did they — 

A If^^^Jdid, for the record, it was very sparingly. 



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X don't ranember seeing hin regularly. 

Q If he wai not there, there would have been a 
representative in the agency's place, isn't that the case? 

A In very rare instances. I can't deny there were 
probably agency people wandering in and out. It was mostly 
USIA, ourselves and ffalt. I think Halt felt he was a good 
enough liaison for the agency himself. 

Q What was your responsibility in dealing with the 
Democratic Resistance? 

A Nell, originally it was none, and it sort of, X 
guess I emotionally got involved 




Q Were you aware of the frequent contact between 
Oliver North and Rich Miller? 

A At the time I was at S/LPD, I wasn't aware of 

that, that it was that frequent. When I got to the National 
Security Council, I, through just what people would say, 
it was obvious that the relationship had blossomed. 



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Q Well, in 1985, according to Oliver North's calendar, 
and it is not a complete calendar, but indications there that 

we have were that you were on his calendar 39 times in 1985, 

and Rich Miller was on his calendar a similar cunount of 

times. And Rich Miller was a contractor with the State 

Department on the contract, you were the overseer. 

A Rich Miller was not, his corporation was. 

Q He was the President of the corporation that signed 
the contract. 

A Right. We, as I have stated before, we did not 
hire Rich Miller's services, we hired Frank Gomez. 

Q We can go back and look at the contract. 

A I am not disputing that Mr. Oliver — 

Q The contract in 1985 ran from October 1, 1984, 
through September 30, 1985, was signed by Rich Miller as 
President of IBC. 

A And all I aun stating — 

Q And you were the primary person in LPD responsible 
fo* that contract. 

A And I dealt almost exclusively with Frank Gomez . 
I just think that that has to — there is an innuendo there 
I didn't like. 

Q Were you aware of the frequent meetings between 
Frank Gomez and Oliver North in 1985? 

A I didn't think there were that many frequent 



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1 meetings. I was aware Oliver North and Rich Miller had 

2 meetings, because of Congressman Kuykendall in '85, 

3 I don't know how — 1 didn't realize it was as many numbers 

4 as you said. I did not realize until the press reports that 

5 the relationship took on a different patina, and that 

6 was after I left the State Department. 

7 So to the extent there were any contacts, the 

8 ones I was aware of between Oliver North and Rich Miller 

9 involved vis-a-vis Congressman Kuykendall. 

10 Q What was your understanding of what they were doing 

11 with Oliver North and Dan Kuykendall? 

12 A Ollie had the tendency to work lots of different 

13 things without anybody's knowledge of what was going on. I 

14 understood he was dealing with Kuykendall on how to work on 

15 the Hill during the run-up to the various and sundry votes, 
ig and Rich Miller was, had been retained by Congressman 

17 Kuykendall in the Gulf and Caribbean Council. They worked 

18 their little thing, and we occasionally, as I said, over- 

19 Kipped. I didn't see that much of them. 

20 Q Do you remember a meeting on January 16 at 9:30 

21 in the morning at Oliver North's office? 

22 A January 16, what year? 

23 Q 1985. Meeting with you, Frank Gomez, Rich Miller in 

24 Oliver North's office? 

25 A No. But it may have happened. I don't recall it. 



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Q Do you recall a meeting at 9:30, January 25, in 
the White House Situation Room with Lou Lehrman, Sanchez, 
Oliver North, Walt Raymond, yourself. Rich Miller, Frank 
Gomez and Jeff Bell? 

A I think I do. I can't recall all those people 
were there. I think there may have been a meeting. 



162 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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rest. 



I don't remember Jeff Bell but I remember the 

(Discussion off the record.) 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Do you recall what the purpose of that meeting 



163 



was? 



A I think Lou Lehrman had indicated as it was 
well known that he was interested in pushing the President's 
agenda, and Ollie was very smitten with Citizens for 
America, and thought that this was one thing just like 
tax reform and everything else that Citizens for America 
would be involved in, and I think that was the purpose of 
having Lou Lehrman down, to talk about that, but I can't 
remember anything beyond that. 

Q Do you remember any follow-on or follow-up to 
that meeting? 

A No. At one time our office had a very good 
relationship with Citizens for America, but it sort of 
petered out and much earlier than that. 

When you said had good relationship, what do you 
mean? 

A Well, they would ask for material and we would 
provide it, things like that. That was the extent of it. 

Q Was that group there basically the Central 
America working group on public diplomacy? 






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A Mr. Sanchez would rarely attend, if ever, that 
whole diplomacy group. He would show up at the legislative 
strategy meetings that were held when we were getting ready 
for a vote, but Mr. Sanchez was never involved in public 
diplomacy operations. 

Q You are talking about the legislative strategy 
meetings that were going on primarily when you were working 
in Ollie North's office? 

A Right. 

Q But the meetings weren't chaired by North, were 

they? 

A Oh, no. Which ones? 

Q The legislative strategy. 

A No, Don Fortier. 

Q You participated in those meetings and Ollie 
North and who else participated? 

A The Fortier group. 

Q Yes, legislative strategy group, I think you 

referred to it. ^/^/»r/^ 

A I thinkflH^^Hl think ^^F-TTdepended 
on who was there, what time. Usually — I can't remember 
the names now -- at least three people from the White House 
Legislative Affairs Office, usually Ed Fox from State 
Department congressional affairs, Jim MichelJ^as always 
there from ARA. Early on it was Constantine. Later on it 



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became Ray Bunihardt, later on Elliott Abrams, they showed 
up, that was right before I left. 

Q Did Otto also participate with you in these 
meetings? 

A Very rarely. 

Q You were the representative of LPD in these 



165 



<jop 



Ao- 



meetings? 

A Basically I became sort of the gtrfer of the 
meeting. I wasn't there in an LPD sense. I was the idiot 
that would agree to take on certain things and put in many 
hours. 

Q Who was asking you to take on these things? 

A It depended who was in that group. It was a 
rather egalitarian group and by consensus. Sometimes Ron 
Sable, sometimes Ollie, sometimes Jim Michel. 

Q Were you ever gofer f or ^^^^^^^^^H ^<^ 

^^^Hand I had fundamental disagreementi'. 



No. 



A 

Q Do you remember a meeting on January 28th with 
Ollle North and Bob Riley, Jackie Tilman, ConstantinP 
Otto, you and John Norton Moore to discuss the constitu- 
tional and legal aspects of U.S. involvement in Central 
America? 

A No, I would have really remembered that one. 
That is an interesting gang^f people, but I don't remember 
that meeting. I w*» the Trotskyite in that group. 



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Q Do you remember a meeting on — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Are you saying that all these 
meetings occurred or are you asking in a general sense? 

MR. OLIVER: I'm asking whether he recalls them. 
I tell you, counsel, that these meetings are indicated in 
Oliver North's calendar. That is why I'm asking about 
them. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: You are not saying they actually 
occurred. 

MR. OLIVER: I'm not saying they actually occurred. 
I'm asking whether he remembers if they occurred. I'm 
only asking about meetings where his name appears on this 
calendar. The indications are that they did occur, because 
on most occasions on this calendar, the meetings had not 
occurred there was a line, an X drawn through them or they 
wrote "canceled," but I have no way o£ knowing that they 
occurred except on the basis of the fact that they are on 
this calendar, others have testified to some of these 
actings, and so I'm just asking you about these meetings 
wli«re your name appears on this calendar. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Just trying to get a little 
discovery which I did. 

MR. OLIVER: Yes, you did. I'm not trying to 
hide from you. 



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BY MR. OLIVER: r ' 

Q Do you remembar a OMeting that %K>uld hava taken 
place between you, Oliver Horth, Rob Owen, Rich Miller, 
and Frank Gomez, on February 27, 1985? 

A It's possible. 

Q Do you remember a meeting with those participants 
in it? 

A I can't deny that there was one. It's possible, 
but I don't recall it. 

Q Would it have been normal for you to meet with 
that particular group of people? 

A Especially if I was upset with trtiat I thought 
was Calero getting out of control again, since at that 
point Rich Miller was vrorking very closely with Calero, 
emd Rob Owen was Calero 's sort of lieutenant. I may have 
very well tjJcen my concerns of I 

Q You would go to Horth with these concerns? 

I would sometimes sort of get everything together, 
'it seems like Ollie was the only one that certain 



A 

HeAi 



people would pay attention to. I mean it was better than 
sort of washing my hands and walking away from it. 

Q Do you remember a meeting with Oliver North on 
or about March 28, 1985, Grover Norquist and Jack Abramoff, 
and Grover Norquiest and Oliver North? 

A I don't know Grover Norquiest, but it's 



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conceivable I have met Jack before, that that meeting took 
place. 

Q Do you know someone nauned Brokaw? 

A I know we did one session with Tom Brokaw at the 
NSC to give him an intelligence briefing along with some 
other people, and that could have been a reference to that. 

Q Do you remember a meeting with you and Tom Brokaw 
and Ollie North in Ollie's office? 

A No, I would have known that. I mean I have met 
Brokaw before, and I would have remember that. 

A 

Q You met on several occasions with Oliver North 
and Arturo Cruz, Jr.,' did you not? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the purpose of those meetings? 

A Usually Arturo would come to me very, very 
concerned over whatever the crisis of the moment is, and 
with Nicaraguans there is a crisis usually ever two hours, 
and if it was bad enough and he was threatening to have 
YkJtm father pull out of the resistance, I would say, "Ollie, 
will you at least listen to Arturo," and I would bring him 
over, but for every session that Arturo Cruz, Jr., had 
with Ollie, I must have had five or six. 

Q With Arturo Cruz, Jr., or Ollie? 

A Junior. Arturo Cruz, Jr. Actually -- 

Q You were sort of the technical representative 



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on his contract, is that correct? ? ^i 

A I didn't know at the time that he had a contract. 

Q Didn't he have a contract with LPD to write 

three articles? -< : 

A Yes, he did, but I don't think I was his technical 

representatj 




Q Do you remember a meeting in June of 1985, a 
lunch at the IBC office with Frank Gomez, Rich Miller and 
yourself, Oliver North and Otto? 

MR. CHRISTMAS: What is the date? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q June 5, 1985. This would have been about -- 

A I don't recall it, but it would not have been 
necessarily — i ' 

Q Do you remember a discussion at that meeting 
about the Spitz Channell fund-raiser that was about to take 
place at the White House within the next ensuing two days? 



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A If it were put in that phraie, I would have 
remembered it because that would have been blatantly 
illegal. We don't do fund-raisere at the White House. 

Q A briefing followed by a fund-raiser? 

A I don't specifically recall it, but I won't 

discount it. 

Q There is an entry on Oliver North's calendar on 
June 17, 1985, it has your name, 4:30 on June 17, and in 
parenthesis it has cited -(Green-bearded one)." Do you know 
what that referred to? 

A I was asked that by the Independent Counsel, and 
I don't have the slightest idea. I'm totally baffled by 
it. 




Q There are numerous meetings on Oliver North's 
calendar with just you and him, and nobody else indicated 
being present. What wa. the purpose of these meetings? 

A on the whole I think it was - I hate to sound 
repetitive, but my concern that Ollie had a total fixation 
with the military operation, and that there were so many 
other ways. The only way that we could prevail in Nicaragua 
was through internal and external political opposition. 



l3lini^Cfririrp% 



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1 work with labor unions, et cetera, and I would come back 

2 with exeunple after example after example, and it got to be 

3 rather tiresome. There were times he would almost throw 

4 me out of the office, but I just felt that he was wedded 

5 too much to the Calero military operation. 

6 Q So all these meetings were primarily to discuss 

7 Central American strategy, is that correct? 

8 A In most cases. I can't rule out anything else. 

9 That was the preponderance of the meetings. 

10 Q If you will remind me again, what was the 

11 date of your dcparLwent from LPD? 

12 A Roughly the third or fourth week in August of 

13 1985. 

14 Q And what was your relationship with Oliver 

15 North after that? 

15 A Purely social. I attended two legislative 

17 strategy meetings after I went to the NSC, and then I told 

18 tlpai I didn't have enough time. 

19 ^ Q Where did those meetings take place? 

20 A The Situation Room. The rest of it was social 

21 and we usually sat together at 7:30 a.m. staff meetings. 

22 Q On August 26, September 20, October 15 — 

23 MR. CHRISTMAS: Can you give me those dates? 

24 MR. OLIVER: August 28, August 29, September 20, 

25 October 15, and December 11, 1985. 

layni jiccic"r-> 



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- ' '■ MR. CHRISTMAS: Thank you. 
"■ ■ BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q And on March 10, 1986, you are indicated as having 
meetings alone with Oliver North in his office, on his 
calendar. Could those meetings have taken place? 

A Very conceivably. We were both professional 
members of the NSC staff. It may have been over actually 
nothing. I have to point out at that point I was up to my 
ass, I did about 15 foreign trips preparing the President 
for his Geneva summit, for his Tokyo summit, for his trip 
to Grenada, to Mexico, for his U.N. trips and I was handling 
20 visits from people like Nakasone, Thatcher and everybody 

else. 

Q These were not social visits? 

A I think they probably were. I didn't have time 
for Latin American affairs, and was very happy to be out 
of it, and wasn't at all aware of his other activities, so 
th«5 were probably just going in and shooting the breeze 
vim a colleague, I don't know, but he was very impossible 
to go by and see, and he was a good friend, and it's like 
getting a private audience with the Pope to get through 
Fawn to see if you could just come by and see Ollie. I 
don't know what those were about, but I would bet the ranch 
that they were not about Central America. 

Q Do you remember a meeting on March 25, 1986, 



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173 



with Oliver North, yourself, Mitch Daniels, Penn Kimble, 
and perhaps others in Oliver North's office? 

A No, and I know all those people very well. 
I do not remember that meeting at all. It was March? 

Q March 25, 1986. 

A I seriously doubt that I was even in town. 
I was probably in Asia at the time, but I don't remember 
that meeting at all. 

Q Did you use the secure phone at LPD? 

A Yes. 

Q Very often? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you have your own secure phone? 

A No. I mean we had, I think, one instrument with 
two extensions, one which was Ambassador Reich's office, 
the other which was on top. Well, maybe I did have. We 
had one instrument with two extensions. I can't remember, 
b«t ay office was literally right next door to Ambassador 

ilich's. 

Q Did most offices in the State Department have 
secure phones? 

A Yes, most offices had them. Not every single 
office, but most, the Central American office at ARA, the 
South America office, every office would at least have 
one instrument, if they had to do anything in the secure 



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area. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Miller Exhibit 10. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 10 
. _. was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I ask you to examine this . 
A Variations on the same thing. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: There is no question pending. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I had asked the witness to examine this memoran- 
dum. Are you familiar with this memorandum? 
A It looks familiar. 
Q Did you sign it? 

A I probably did. It looks like my signature. 
Q Are these the New York Times and Washington Post 
op-ed pieces that were discussed earlier that were prepared 
by your consultant? 

A I would think, given the timing, they probably 
are . 

Q You indicate that Alfonso Robelo is in Washington 
this week and he has made contact with one of your consul- 
tants who is actively engaged in seeing that Mr. Robelo 
has meetings with the Washington Post, Newsweek, Scripps- 
Howard and so on. Who is that consultant? 



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A I think, to repeat your question of previous times, 
it's probably Frank Gomez. 

Q Was it the normal practice for Mr. Robelo to 
contact your consultant or to contact you through your 
consultant rather than contacting you directly? 

A There wasn't any set pattern in the whole thing. 

Q You refer in the last paragraph to an NBC news 
story on the contras, in a cassette. Did you all have 
anything to do with that story? 

A I think that we may have suggested to Fred that 
he go do%m to do that, which if we hadn't, we wouldn't be 
ding our job. 

Q Did you assist him? 

A No. 

Q In any way? 

A We did not, not that I'm aware of. We didn't 
accompany hin or emything else. Fred Francis also did 
s(»ie very damaging pieces on the contras as well. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 11. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 11 
was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Do you remember receiving this memorandum. 



Mr. Miller? 



iiyn ACCIFSPn 



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A Yes, I do. 

Q Who is Judge Barbieri? 

A Janis Barbieri. She was an employee of LPD who 
worked with the media. 

Q She was one of the schedule C's that you referred 
to earlier, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What had she done prior to coming to LPD, do you 
remember? 

A Among other things she was a press secretary 
to Senator Hiakawa. She worked the Williamsburg summit, 
the press. She is one of those people we all know and 
love who has been around for a long time, good press back- 
ground. 

Q Does this memorandum represent the kinds of things 
that your staff was regularly engaged in at LFD? 

A Oh, I would say we probably engaged in maybe 
5 percent of the stuff that was generated, but it was the 
t^^f* of thing that we did. We were asked to do. We worked 
in this case, she worked very closely with the Public 
Affairs Bureau, you know, Agronsky, or if a talk show was 
having speakers on, we were the ones that were supposed 
to get speakers on for the administration side, but, yes, 
that is reflective of what we did. 

Q Do you recall whether or not this press plan 



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was carried out? 

A No. In most cases little bits and pieces of 
different things would come about, but we never took anything 
in total. , 

MR. CHRISTMAS: I realize from the layman's view- 
point the government generates too much paper. 

THE WITNESS: They love paper in the State 
Department . 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Miller Exhibit 12. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 12 
was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I ask you to examine that. Do you recall this 
contract with Martin Arostequi? 
A Yes, I do. 

Q fifid what was the genesis of your acquaintanceship 
with Mr. Arostequi? 

A I barely knew the man. I think he may still 
be on the faculty at Georgetown, and because he had been 
Otto's professor. Otto recused himself, but I think he is 
another Cuban emigre who happens to be well regarded in 
academia to the extent that anybody is well regarded in 
academia, and I do remember him doing some publication 
which was attributed as being paid for by the State 



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Department, and that is the extent of it. 

Q Did you provide Mr. Arostequi with declassified 
intelligence information for this article? 
A No, I did not. 
Q Did LPD provide it? 

A I cannot tell you one way or the other. 
Q Have you looked through the requirements of 
this contract and the two papers, and which topics they 
are? Does that refresh yoxir memory as to whether or not 
you provided declassified information to Mir. Arostequi 
for the purpose of these papers? • 

A No, it doesn't because I may have been put down 
as the COTR but I think Dave Randolph — I'm trying to 
see when this actually took place. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Can you give us the date, 
counsel? 

MR. OLIVER: There is July 9, 1985, memorandum 
from Frank Gardner to Pat Kennedy indicating that Jonathan 
MiUer will serve as the COTR on this contract. 

' '" THE WITNESS: At the time that this was under- 
taken, it was understood that David Randolph, I think, 
who was the former Foreign Service Officer, he is a 
Foreign Service Officer formerly had been with the U.S. 
embassy in Managua, was to work with Professor Arostequi. 
I was not there. This is right at the time I was winding 



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things up, and I know that a publication came out that 
was after I left, so I can't really testify to anything 
beyond that . 

Q Did you meet with Mr. Arostequi about this 
project? 

A I think I met with him once. 

Q And what was discussed at that meeting? 

A Basically that he would undertake a publication 
regarding — not publication, a series of writings on sort 
of the leftist network, and then it was sent through the 
line of contracting officers and things like that to see if 
it would fly. 

By the time it got very fair, I had already left, 
so I really can't tell you much beyond that. 

Q The date is July 9? 

A I think that is when it was submitted. It would 
not have come back until after I left. I don't remember 
ever having after my one meeting and submitting it through 
Frank Geurdner, ever having any other dealings. I was 
told later on that something was published. 

Q If it was performed within 30 days it would have 
been performed before you left. 

A I don't remember it being performed. I don't 
remember the paperwork coming back. It may be performed 
after it's certified by the State Department contracting 



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people, but it may take months for it to get through that 

Byzantine mess. 

Q That date on the purchase orders was July 9, but 
the contract itself says that he was going to commence 
performance on September 30, 1984, and I know how slow the 
State Department is . 

A I didn't work on this, and I remember something 
came out, but I can't tell you other than the fact that it 
was not my area of expertise. Frank Gardner had a tendency 
at this point to make me COTR for everything, and actually 
Dave Randolph was going to work with him on that. 

Q Did you ever complain to Frank Gardner about this? 
A No, because, my God, when I was at the White 
House I certified things that my accountants would say was 
for the President's expense account and I didn't go up to 
the pantry to see if flour was used. It was something 
that was required, so I did it. 

Q YOU were the COTR on at least several, if not 
MC«, contracts, and is it your testimony that you didn't 
take that seriously? 
A No. 

Q Or you didn't do this job? 

A I'm not saying that. I am saying that there were 
people that were actually capable people in certain areas. 
David Randolph's expertise is far better on this. He 



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would work in a substantive fashion. I would get something 
submitted to me after somebody like David Randolph has said 
we have worked on this, we have scrubbed it, it's good, 
let's go with it, and then I would certify it; just in the 
same manner my accountants at the VThite House would 
certify something I %rauld look at the back-up material and 
certify it, but it was obviously gleaned by people that 
knew that sort of thing. 

Q Are you aware that under government regulations 
COTRs are not supposed to delegate their authority? 

A No , I ' m not . 

Q Did you ever read the back-up papers on these 
contracts that you initiated and oversaw and submitted the 
certifications for the work performed on? 

A I didn't actually see the contracts that were 
submitted. As you will notice, I don't think I ever signed 
a contract, but the answer is no, I didn't read any of 
that. 

Q So you didn't really know 4iat a COTR was supposed 
to do, even though you were one; is that your testimony? 

A I would say that in hindsight I probably should 
have been more scrupulous, that's all I'm saying, not 
scrupulous, more exacting. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter 
to mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 13. 



798 






182 



1 (Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 13 

2 was marked for identification.) 

3 BY MR. OLIVER: 

4 Q This is a memorandum from George Twohie to Frank 

5 Gardner, a purchase order contract for Mr. Arturo Cruz, 

h 

6 Sequeira cleared by Frank Gardner for Jonathan Miller. 

7 At the bottom, I believe those are Frank Gardner's initials, 

8 are they not? 

9 A Yes, they are. 

10 Q And indicating that you had served as COTR. Do 

11 you recall this purchase order? 

12 A I recall it after conversations between Ambassador 

13 Reich and Arturo Cruz about it. 

14 Q Is that Arturo Cruz, Jr., or Sr.? 

15 A Junior, it's Jr. r ' 

15 Q This purchase order indicates on the fourth page 

17 here that you will furnish all substantive guidance and 

18 technical advice to the contractor on this project. Did 

19 y||j| do that? 

20 A No. That was done between Ambassador Reich and 

21 Arturo Cruz. 

22 Q But you were his good friend and met with him 

23 quite often, is that correct? 

24 A Yes, but I also didn't feel that I had the 

25 competence to judge. I don't remember this back-up material, 



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to judge this piece, so I actually never was involved in 

this piece. 

Q You were never involved in this piece? 

A No. I admit that I was COTR but I think 
Ambassador Reich was involved. i 

Q On the last page here you signed the certifi- 
cation that he has completed the work and services to the 
satisfaction of the contract. 

A Right. 

Q On July 25, 1986? 

A Right, which is for one of his three pieces. 
That was only done after it had been reviewed by Ambassador 

Reich. 

Q But you did not know? 
A Right . 

Q Whether or not this was the proper work. In 
other words, you did this on the basis of his judgment, 
not yours, is that what you are saying? 

A Yes. An±)assador Reich had a far better sense 
of this than I did, in addition to being my boss. 

Q Has there anybody else in LPD who was made COTR 
for these contracts? 

A I'm beginning to wonder. I don't know. I 
really don't know. 

Q Did you ever become concerned about being the 
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COTR on so many contracts that you were overseeing? 

A When you are dealing in a setting that is going 
a thousand miles an hour, you usually don't pause to reflect 
on that sort of thing. I possibly would now, since I spent 
four months in Leesburg, Virginia, contemplating all sorts 
of things two years ago, but at the time, no. 

Q Did anybody oversee these contracts that you 
were supposed to be overseeing? 

A In many cases different people. As I indicated, 
in certain cases it would be David Randolph, in certain cases 
Peter Romero, in certain cases it would be Ambassador Reich. 

Q But in most cases it wasn't you, is that right? 

A I would see the documents after people that had 

a much better substantive background signed off on them, 

and before they were submitted to our contracting people 

who were supposed to know whether they were right or wrong. 

Yes, I would see them. 

f 

Q The contracting people were supposed to know 
whether or not the contract was technically efficient, but 
you were the one who certified that the work was done? 

A Sometimes it would be kicked back by not just 



r^ C« 



^^ 



the contracting people, people in IMOO M, the management 
bureau. 

Q Do you recall any of those contracts being kicked 



back? 



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A I remember them being kicked back but I don't 
remember which specific ones. 

Q Do you remember why they were kicked back? 

A There was some deficiency but I can't remember 
why. 

Q Did it have to do with whether or not the work 
was performed? 

A I can't tell you. I really don't know. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 14. '- 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 14 

'"•■ 'u .■.■.:j ::l 5,-v '^z^l'. 

was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Do you know this? it 

I do remember this. 



Do you know Michael Waller? 

■ \7:. ;ji I'lfu'.-r' ■ ■■ . v-:r;;.;;5'">v 

Yes. 



Who is Michael Waller? ' - 

He was a relatively young man. I'm not sure 
where he is working now. He had been working with some 
conservative think tanks, and I don't know whether it was 
Heritage or where else. This was an area that he was 
interested in, and I remember him doing this piece. 

Q Was he at Heritage at the time, February 6, 1985, 
that this memo was written? 



nmni asgirscn 



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A I cannot tell you. 
Q What did he do for you? 

A If I remember correctly, he put together a paper 
that was in a Q and A format, trying to connect Salvadoran 
guerrillas to the Sandinistas. I haven't seen that paper 
in years, and I can't tell you anything beyond that. You've 
got the ability to refresh your memory. I can't tell you. 
Q In the last page of this exhibit — 

MR. CHRISTMAS; Just for the record, it's four 
pages. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Waller indicates in this note to you, "I 
chose a series of questions and follow-up questions that 
are commonly asked by students and by activists affiliated 
with communist support groxips." 

Do you know what that refers to, or what communist 
support groups he was referring to? 

A No, ajid just as you may occasionally sort of 
^itt. some of your colleagues say with a grain of salt, 
Michael amd I didn't see necessarily eye to eye. Me can put 
out good work emd you not agree with him. He had a tendency 
to be a bit strident at times in his rhetoric. Those things 
that he would call communist support groups I would probably 
call liberals. 

Q Do you know, Mr. Miller, a man named Jeffrey 

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Nelson? 

A I don't think so. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Does he have a street name, 
counsel? 

THE WITNESS: The neune does not immediately 
spring to mind. 

MR. OLIVER: I ask the reporter to mark this as 
Miller Exhibit No. 15. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 15 
was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I ask you to examine this. This is a series of 
documents, the first of which is dated April 11, 1985, and 
running through the 20th of May, 1985, a series of invoices 
and memos, purchase orders and contracts related to a 
purchase order for Mr. Jeffrey Nelson. Mr. Nelson is 
indicated as performing critical services on the direction 
of the coordinator of public diplomacy for Latin America. 
Itf indicates that you will research and investigate the 
response of "opinion elites" to the President's Easter 
peace initiative on Nicaragua. 

The first one said he would research and 
investigate the response of opinion elites to the President's 
Easter peace initiative on Nicaragua. And the second one 
he will research and write a series of essays and articles 



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designed to elicit support of the "persuadable sector of 
the opinion elites." -,.■-■ . .; c 

Who was he referring to as the opinion elites? 
A I don't know. In this case I specifically remember 
having a major explosion with Frank Gardner. I hadn't even 
seen this. 

Q You were the COTR once again? 

A I know. As Frank got more comfortable in his job, 
I became apparently an automoatic COTR. I don't even remem- 
ber Jeffrey Nelson. I still can't place the guy. As I 
flip over several pages, 1 see that I did certify. 
Q Was Frank a schedule C? 

A No, he is a Foreign Serivce Officer about to 
retire. He may not have been Foreign Service. He may have 
been Civil Service. He had served in posts at one point. 

Q This seems to indicate some kind of a problem. 
Perhaps it might be easier if you just told us what you 
reaember about this, and then if I have questions I will 
f«|low up. 

A I remember specifically in this case I sort of^__ 
blew up, because I didn't even know^ My name gets slapped 
on something and it gets sent upstairs without even knowing 
about it. I cannot place Jeff Nelson. Since I certified 
in one case $2000, he must have done something. I think, 
and this is a very foggy memory, that I may have shut down 



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1 this thing rather than $8000 and paid him $2000 instead 

2 after he did some work. This is it, because I don't think 

3 I can see from my very foggy memory that we ever paid him 

4 anything more, and I certified only one piece, but I remember 

5 this was about this time that I had a discussion with Frank 

6 Gardner saying, you know, "Frank, let me know about these 

7 things." 

8 Q You certified one on the 23rd of April, but he 

9 kept billing you constantly after that. 

10 A I don't think, at least I never certified and 

11 I don't think you see any certification. I think I may 

12 have --no, I said outside of that. 

13 Q This is April 23, the certification that you 

14 examined, and then we have got something coming back to 

15 Gardner from Nelson on the 26th of June. We've got an 

16 invoice on the 23rd of April, an invoice on May 1st, an 

17 invoice on May 10, an invoice on May 20. What was going 

18 on? 

19 A If this is the case that I remember, this is the 

20 one where I told Frank I didn't like the contract being 

21 sent up with my name without my being aware of anything, 

22 and that he did produce some work, and we certified it 

23 on one case, and I think, if I may, and my mind is very 

24 foggy in this regard, at some point that summer I may have 

25 called hira up and said "This is all you are going to get." 



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190 



1 I don't think I ever certified more than S2000 on that 

2 $8000. 

3 Q Did you meet Mr. Nelson? 

4 A If I did, he didn't stick in my mind, 

5 Q You don't remember having met him prior or since? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Since this thing? 

8 A No . 

9 Q If you met him at this time? 

10 A Right . 

11 O But you do remember talking to him on the 

12 telephone? 

13 A I think I may have actually called him after he 

14 kept submitting this stuff and saying we are going to get 

15 out 25 cents on the dollar here. 

IS Q In his letter of June 26 to Frank Gardner, he 

17 says, "I think that was done and also in lieu of whatever 

b 

18 paperwork you got from Jonathan Miller who held my bills," 

19 do you know what he was referring to by that reference? 

20 A Yes, I think that I didn't think that he 

21 deserved $8000 for what he submitted, from what I remember. 

22 I frankly, if I remember correctly, was amazed that this 

23 thing had gone through and Frank Gardner had sent it up 

24 without my knowledge, and I frankly balked at that price. 

25 I thought it was rather heady stuff. I wish I was getting 



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paid for that. 

Q So that was the end of your episode with Mr. 
Nelsorj is that correct? - - ■ 

A I don't recall anything beyond that. Frankly it 
was rip-off prices. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 16. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 16 
was marked for identification.) 
MR. CHRISTMAS: Mr. Reporter, would you let the 
record reflect that it is now approximately 4:49. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Miller, this is a letter to you from Mark 
Richards Associates, dated September 24, 1984. I think we 
discussed this earlier in terms of whether or not you knew 
that Mr. Richards, that you were familiar with Mr. Richards 
negotiating his contract while he was still employed at 
LPD prior to his retirement. 

Does this refresh your memory about your know- 
ledge of that subject? 

A I never had any reason to doubt this at all. 
Q This was a letter to you proposing to continue 
his efforts as a corporat/^ than as an individual? 
A Right. 
Q And to do the same thing at the daily rate of 



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$330 a day. Did you respond to this proposal? 

A The standard operating procedure was the way 
it was, I would check with Ambassador Reich and see if he 
wanted to do it. I then would hand this to our administra- 
tive people to sit down with the contracting people, the 
lawyers to see what the problem was, or if there were any, 
but I myself would not respond to it until it had gone 
through the mill. I'm not sure that I ever did, unless 
something was drafted. !^ ~ 

Q Did anyone raise any problems about the propriety 
of this arrangement? . . • ■ 

A Not that I'm aware of. . - 

Q Do you remember receiving this proposal? 

A I don't specifically remember it, but I won't 
deny that I did. 

Q Did you discuss it with Mark Richards at the 
time? . ■ --•■ 

A I said "put your proposal in." What I normally 
do with all contracts is put it in writing and we will send 
it through the line and see what is Kosher and what is not. 

A ^=^ 

I have never professed, although I got aftfl^ in contracts in 
law, I haven't touched them since then, to be a contracting 
expert, and never want to be one. 

Q Were you aware that this proposal was basically 
an arrangement through which Mr. Richards could retire at 

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1 full pension and continue to get paid the equivalent of a 

2 full government salary while never leaving your office? 

3 A I'm not sure I would couch it the way you did, 

4 but I was aware that Mark Richards was the main asset of 

5 Mark Richards, Inc., and that I was also aware that it 

6 should be submitted to our lawyers and contracting people 

7 with the requisite background information, and if they had 

8 problems with it, they should be checking it out. 

9 Q Did you cause it to be submitted to your 

10 lawyers? 

11 A It always goes to the lawyers. 

12 Q Did you cause it to be? 

13 A I had it submitted to the contracting office who 

14 then was supposed to run it through all the traps . 

15 Q And you indicated to them that this was an 

16 arrangement that was being worked out with LPD by a person 

17 who was currently on detail, a full-time detail to — 

1g A I did not. The background was known by whoever 

19 did our administrative matters, and they were the ones that 

20 talked to the contracting office. 

21 Q So is it your testimony that as far as you are 

22 concerned, you saw no problems with this arrangement? 

23 A I saw no problems if the contracting office had 

24 no problems with it. That was their job. 

25 Q Did you forward everything, every proposal of the 

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contracts office without giving it the benefit of your 
judgment? 

A I don't see anything wrong with that, if the 
requisite back-up material would reflect everything that 
they needed to know, and it was obvious on the back-up 
material that he had just retired from the U.S. Air Force. 

Q Did you make any decisions while you were at 



LPD? 



As to what, sir? 



MR. CHRISTMAS: 

BY MR. OLIVER: ^ * [ 

As to anything, related to your official duties. 

I made plenty of decisions on a daily basis. 

Do you remember what some of those decisions 
related to? 

A There were dozens every day, and I really resent 
your inference, Mr. Oliver. 

Q I'm trying to determine whether or not contracts 
that are submitted to you, proposals that are submitted to 
you, were subject to any judgment by you before they were 
passed on, because your earlier answer seemed to indicate 
that it didn't matter to you what was in the proposal as 
long as it was okay with contracts and the lawyers. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: I object to your characterization. 
He did not say that it didn't matter what was in it. Is 
there a pending question? 



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BY MR. OLIVER: 
The question was, what decisions did you make? 
A I made a myriad of decisions and I would dare 
say that you would be hard pressed to come up with decisions 
that you make on a daily basis. 

Q I'm just trying to determine whether or not you 
had anything to do with these contracts, because you indicated 
earlier that you didn't fulfill this role of COTR on these 
contracts. 

A I'm indicating that other people were involved 
as well, and there are a lot of other things besides being 
a COTR. I worked very haurd, was very proud of my job, and 
frankly, because of a lot of McCarthyistic innuendos, lost 
my job at the White House, and I'm unemployed and I'm getting 
damn sick and tired of this entire fishing expedition. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 17. 

(Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 17 
was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q There is a PROF note at the bottom of the page 
from Rodney McDaniel; the subject is "North's Do Not Admit 
Status," and it's to /^SBSR, whoever that is. Do you know 
who that would be? 



I'm sorry? 



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Q At the bottom who this PROF note is to? We )cnow 
who it's from. Right above that, it skips a space and says 



who it is to. 



/5«e< 



^ 



A No, I don't. Brenda Rigj>. She was the security 

lory 



officer. 

Q This says, "Svabject to Brenda Tti^a, does this mean 
he can't get in to see papers under escort? This is bound 
to get headlines of the scape-goat variety — need to sort 
this out with White House coxinsel and Jonathan Miller." 
Was this sorted out with you? 
A I don't think so. The sum and substance of this 
was I separate very strongly my duties from my personal 
relationship. I was deputy assistant to the President for 
management at the time. This was Thanksgiving morning. 
I know Ollie all too well. I felt that some of the people 
at NSC had been to lax in securing Ollie 's office, and all 
of a sudden I went, "Holy God, I bet he is going to try to 
get into the White House complex on Thanksgiving morning 
wHba the guards are down," and I called up Secret Service 
and I said, arbitrarily informed Don Regan after the fact 
that I put Ollie North on a "do not admit" list because I 
said, "All we need is a story of Ollie getting into the 
complex." That is what it was all about. 
Q What did he say? 
A Don Regan? We were both in Santa Barbara at the 



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time. That was the end of it. I never heard anything more 
from the NSC, never heard anything from the NSC period. 

Q Were you involved in any way in the dealings with 
the Independent Counsel after it was recorded in which he 
was seeking to gain access to White House documents? 

A I worked with the White House counsel in providing 
logistical support, but that was the extent of it. I did 
not control the documents, 

Q Were you aware of the documents that were being 
requested? 

A No, I was not. 

Q How did you provide logistical support? 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse me, counsel. Would you 
for the record state how this related to the mandate of 
the committee, this area of questioning? 

MR. OLIVER: It's related to the investigation of 
the Independent Counsel of this particular subject matter 
that we are also investigating. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: I'm not sure how that is related 
spdiiiifically; unless you can clear my ignorance of this, 
I'm not sure how this relates to the mandate of the 
committee, that Mr. Miller has to answer the questions. 
MR. OLIVER: Let me rephrase, counsel. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Mr. Miller, were you aware of requests for 



_linHkT%flAnJ feAAJilii 



fai4 



36 



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^fellSSff^ 



198 



docunents coining to the White House from the House Foreign 
Affairs Committee, the House Intelligence Committee, the 
Senate Intelligence Committee, or the Joint Select 
Committee? 

A I was aware that requests — 

Q Select committees? 

A I was aware requests were coming in. I did not 
know what the requests are. It was not in my area of 
expertise. That was totally between the White House counsel 
and the staff secretary, and I'm not involved in either of 
those activities or was at the White House at the time. 

Q Did you provide any logistical support for the 
provision of any of those documents? 

A No, I did not. 



UNCLASSIRED 



815 



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%4SSjfgg' 



199 



BY MR. OLIVER: 



Were you aware of what documents were being request- 



ed? 



A No. Except to the extent White House counsel put 
out a memo to people if they had material that related to them, 
they would surrender it to White House counsel so it -- 

Q Did you surrender any materials you had in your 
possession related to your dealings^^th Oliver North? 

A I had absolutely n»t. When I left the State 
Department, I left everything there. .^ ■ : ■ U 

Q Did you copy a personal calendar in '84-85? 

A I left my personal calendar at the State Department 
with my secretary. I never took it with me. I surrendered 
my personal calendar to White House counsel for my White House 
days. It was the only personal calendar I still had and 
my phone logs. White House counsel has them. 

Q ^O" surrendered after you left the White House? 
A I had White House counsel inspect all my papers 
before I left the White House. .- 

Q This was in May 1987 you are referring to, is that 
correct? 

A Right. I left everything in place when I walked 
out of the State Department. I don't believe in personal 
papers. I believe those are work papers of the U.S. Government 
and just left them there. 



iaiCl4.Wir;ch 



816 



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' 1 




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•. •.tf>'<i - 


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alt - 


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(/i 



If&^sfj^ 



200 



When this story broke in November of 1985, when I 
say this story, the President's announcement Ollie North had 
been sent back to the Marine Corps^ and Admiral Poindexter 
resigned, did you have any discussions after that with Oliver 
North? 

A I went over probably half an hour after Ed Meese's 
press conference and said I was sorry and shook his hand and 
left. It is the last time I ever saw Ollie North or talked to 
him. '"^'^'" ^*^- '^ '■'■■ 

Q Did you tell anyone at the White House what your 
involvement hadS^^n 1984 and 1985? 

A 1 informed Peter Wallison and Don Regan at some 
point I am sure my neune would come out. 

Q Did you tell them why? 

A I didn't recall the check writing incident. I 
worked very closely with them and I told them, under the 
witch hunt at most, I fear my name would come in. 

Q Do you think these investigations are witch hunts? 
■<-<"' MR. CHRISTMAS: Objection, do not answer. 
BY MR. OLIVER: " ' .'' 

Q He used the term. ' J; *V? 

A That is the term I used with the Chief of Staff 
and that was my assumption at the time and, frankly, ray opinion 
is not relevant to this. 

Q Did you inform these gentlemen in detail about the 



817 



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WNCIASSIFIED 



201 



work that you had with Oliver North? 

A I really don't know what you mean by that. I did 
say to both the Chief of Staff and to the counsel to the Presi- 
dent at some point, I am sure, there would be lots of people 
that would go after the public diplomacy activities, and while 
there was nothing improper or wrong in what we did, that I 
might end up qett iix? an embarrassment. I told them immediately. 

Q And did they ask you why you thought you would be 
an embarrassment? '• ' 

A Yes. 

Q What did you tell them? - 

A I told them that our activities would be sort of 
smeared and people were — you don't have time to defend 
yourselves. You would have to bail out at the time the accusa- 
tions came out. I said the same thing to Arthur Culvahouse 
when Senator Baker cane on board. 

Q Did you tell Mr. Culvahouse at the time that Sena- 
tor Baker and Mr. Culvahouse came on in any detail of your 
work with Oliver North while you were at LPD? 

A No. Because I still do not think smything was 
improper or wrong. If anything, I was restraining to the ex- 
tent I had any influence on Ollie. I pride myself on integrity. 
I never thought anything was wrong. I couldn't reflect on any 
of this, but as I said, four months of leisure time in Loudon 
County has allowed me to revive all sorts of things. I wouldn't 



HHiri ii QQir'cn 



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SLK-4 



m^nssffw 



202 



change my assumptions now. I just said my name will come up in 
this. 

Q They did not ask you to provide them with -- 

A I provided them with as much as possible and they 
thought that was a tempest in the teapot. 

Q Did you, after this story broke in November of 
1985, the ramifications of what you had done with any of the 
people who you had worked with in LPD in 1984 and 1985? 

A Not really. I didn't think there was a need to. 
I still am baffled as to what was, you know, extraordinary or 
wrong about what was done at the time. 

Q Did you have a discussion with Bruce Cameron in 
March of this year about what you had done when you were work- 
ing with Oliver North? 

A I had a discussion with Bruce, I ran into him on the 
street. I guess it was in March. And Bruce was — and I 
think I speculated at that point that my role of being, that 
I felt I was going to be in an interesting situation, I was 
golAf to be damned for something I did, which was exactly what 
lots of opponents of the Administration wanted us to do. It 
beccime protective. Bruce and I happened to ironically share 
an awful, the same position on the opposition, which was some- 
where to the left of Ollie's. So, yes, I had a general conver 
sation. 

Q Did you-Qxaress to him your concern that Oliver 



ju-exoress to mm you 



ic* 



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wsstK&av^ 



203 



North had gone too far? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you remember the words that you used? 

A No, I don't. But I said to several people I thought 
he had gone out of control. He was a power unto himself. I 
used fairly strong words and it was obvious that I was very, 
very, very upset with Ollie. 

Q Why did you think that? Why did you think he had 
gone, as you said, out of control? 

A It is something that I felt for a long time. I 
felt that you could see with Bud McFarlane's departure and 
Fortier's death, Ollie was no longer being kept in check. He 
was doing too many things at once. I recommended to Rod McDan- 
iel he have the contra account teOcen from him because I felt he 
shouldn't be doing that. 

Q When did you recommend that to Rod McDaniel? 

A Last fall, Z think. I meem — 

Q What did Rod McDaniel say? 

A He agreed. 

Q Did anybody do anything about it? 

A I think Ollie was one of those people that would 
have a temper tantrum and people would back down. 

Q Do you know whether or not they did try to take 
the contra account from him? 

A I do not know. Admiral Poindexter kept things very 



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StVEIfl^tlSSIt 



20< 



closely to his chest. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this as Miller Exhibit No. 18. 

(Exhibit No. 18 was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q You recognize this piece of paper? 

A I can put two and two together and figure out 
what was done. 

Q This was a piece of paper provided to the committee. 
It bears the committee identification number N 28807, and 
it has handwritten on the bottom of it, confidential, at the 
top it has Johnathon Miller. Could you tell us what this piece 
of paper represents? 

A This is by deduction. I got a phone call from 
Fawn Hall, and she was very worried because for some reason 
there were lots of cameras outside the southwest gate, and 
she said that Ollie was involved in something and she had to 
come over and tell me about it, and it was involved with the 
hostages and General Secord, who I had never met, and they 
wer* %rarried with all the cameras that they be expedited through 
the southwest gate. Since I was Deputy Assistant to the 
President for Management, people would pay attention to me in 
an operational c han ge. I checked with the Secret Service to 
make sure their records were sufficient, they could be cleared, 
because we would never let anybody in that the computers kicked 



u^A^^^d. 



821 



SLK-7 






205 



back, and I went down to the southwest gate, and it turns out 
it wasn't necessary, they were whisked through immediately. 
That is what that was about. 

Q Whose hemdwriting is on this page? 

A It looks like it is Fawn's. 

Q Did she give you this piece of paper with those 
notes on it? 

A Never saw it. She may have taken that down to the 
Secret Service. 

Q These people did, in fact, come into the White House 
that day? 

A I saw a group of people coming in; two people with 
what appeared to be General Secord and some other people. Later 
on it sounds like they were the same people that went around 
in the evening. 

Q There are at least what appears to be two different 
kinds of handwriting on this piece of paper and on the lower 
mid-right it says what appears to be, "Pres leave time." Was 
thait Fawn Hall's handwriting? 

A I don't know, it looks like it may be. If I recall 
correctly, the President was taking off that day on the heli- 
copter and Ollie may have taken them out to the south lawn for 
departure. That is always good for impressing people. 

Q Do you know, in fact, whether these people were 
taken out to the south lawn? 






822 



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206 

A I don't know. I was shocked when I heard some 
people were taken on a tour. /• - . ■ . . 

Q Do you know whether or not these people saw the 
President? 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 



No, I have no idea. -i 

Did you meet them? 

No. •■■■ I . -; •' ; 

Did you see them? - , ^ 

I saw them from the car. 
Were they dressed in business suits? 
I can't remember, I really can't. 
Was Ollie with them when you saw them? 
No. - • - - .-..;.■ 0. : r, 

Was anybody? 

What appeared to be General Secord. What I was 
told, it was General Secord. I never met the man so I don't 
know. 

Q Did you ever ask Fawn Hall or Ollie about this 
ine4d«nt afterwards? 

A No. I assumed they were engaged in hostages nego- 
tiations, that was known within the NSC, when I was at the 
NSC they were working on that. , . -. 

Q How do you know General Secord? 
A I don't. ••, 

Q How do you know this was General Secord? 




823 



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I was told by Fawn. 

How do you know it was he you saw? 

I don't. That was an assumption on my part. 

You have seen General Secord I take it since that 



time? 



A Oh, yes. 

Q After seeing him now does it refresh your memory 
as to whether or not that was he with these people? 
A No. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Thought he had something. 
MR. OLIVER: It was a curious piece of paper. 
I would like to have this marked Miller Exhibit No. 19. 
(Exhibit No. 19 was marked for identification.) 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q This is a document that is undated that has NSC 
matter, plan of action, Donald Regan. It bears the committee 
identification number N 35383. Have you ever seen this piece 
of paper before? 
A No. 

Q Have you ever discussed the subject matter of this 
piece of paper with Donald Regan? 
A No. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: May he read it first? 

THE WITNESS: I have glanced at it. No, I haven't. 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Glance at it then. 



iiMci aswr: n 



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Iffl^iSf^igT 



208 

(The witness complied.) 



Gf: 



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umoAsePBiiT 



209 



BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Are you now sharing offices with Donald Regan? 

A He has graciously offered me a free office, yes. 

Q How long have you been using a free office? 

A About two months. 

Q Have you discussed this subject with Donald Regan 
during those last two or three months? 

A No. I was not involved in any preparation for 
him, although: I said, if there is any area I cem help you 
out on, let me know. He judiciously decided not to. I told . 
him I was coming up here. That was the extent of our conversa- 
tion. 

Q Here you aware of the role of Richard Miller in 
targeting Congressional districts for television ads to be 
run in advance of the vote of 1985? 

A Could you repeat that? 

Q Did you know Richard Miller was involved in the 
television ad campaign prior to the vote in 1985 on contra aid: 

A I knew that he talked about working with people 
on such activities, yes. 

Q Were you aware television ads were run prior to 
the vote in 1985 on contra aid? 

A I was aware there were plans to do so, but I dis- 
counted an awful lot of what everybody said they were going 
to do because there was an awful lot of bravado around the 



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210 

question of efficacy of any of these things. 

Q Did you ever see any of the ads? 

A I don't think I did. 

Q Did you discuss at the Central American Public 
Diplomacy meeting, this weekly meeting you were involved in, 
did you discuss the activities of your contractors at that 
meeting? 

A I can't say that we, you know, I can't say that we 
didn't, but I don't remember that being a primary topic. 
I mean, hell, we may have discussed the Redskins game. 

Q These meetings went on once a week. What was 
discussed? 

A They covered the universe. 

Q On Central America? 

A Yes. They would cover whether we were going to 
send somebody to a conference in London where there were 
going to be all sorts of advocates of, from Salvadoran guerillas, 
things like that, or we would talk about putting out papers, 
we talked about problems we had with staffing and getting 
people to place detainees, we talked about everything. It was 
basically just to give a thumbnail sketch to Walt what was 
going on. He did the seune thing with other public operations, 
whether it was Ambassador Helmam or other people. 

Q Why was USIA represented at this meeting? 



ii>f' 



A Because USIA was actively involved in putting out 



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UMOHSfitEtEer 



211 



our positions outside the United States. It was quite — that 
is part of their charter. 

Q Why was the CIA there? 

A I don't remember the CIA being there that often. 
To the extent they were there, I can't tell you why. I do 
not remember them being a major player. I can only remember 
a couple of times there were agency people there. 

Q Did Walt Raymond from time to time tell you all to 
do things, why don't you guys do this, do that, or I think 
you ought to embark on x, y, or z program. Did he task you 
from time to time? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you submit written reports to the NSC about 
what you were doing or was this all done orally in these 
weekly meetings? 

A Mostly orally. Once in a while there would be a 
NSC or NSPG in which Otto would give a briefing to all the 
people in the Situation Room. It might be once every six 
months. That was not the only meeting. We would give a report 
in the weekly meetings as well. 

Q Did you have any official contact with Vice-Presi- 
dent Bush's staff while you were at LPD? 

A No , none . 

Q Do you know who briefed the Vice-President's staff 
on LPD's activities, if indeed, anyone did? 



umaMM 



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UVaEASaHEST 



212 



A If they did, I would assume it would be Otto, but 
I don't know. 

Q Did you ever meet Felix Rodriguez or Max Gomez? 

A No. 

Q What was John Blacken 's job as opposed to what yours 
was? You were both deputies. How did you divide responsibil- 
ities? 

A John worked extensively on preparing publications, 
which is laborious task. He also did lots of speaking. He 
was also the in-house liaison. John has a very — people have 
very high regard for John and, frankly, our shop was given a 
lot more credibility inside the State Department once John 
was there. If we had problems, especially vis-a-vis ARA or 
liaison, John was the perfect person having been the director 
and officer of ARA and DCM in the area, in fact, several 
countries. So he was our in-house person. 

Q So would it be fair if someone said — 

A He is the brains of the outfit. 

Q — he was Mr. Inside and Mr. Outside was Otto? 

A Perfect. 

Q What did Mr. Jacobowitz do in your office? 

A Got me. He had a background in psychological 
warfare. I 2un not really sure, he came on the scene fairly 
late, and he talked to Otto about the fact Otto needed an 
executive officer and became his executive officer, but I am 



*WMfen^fff*'iftl'r 



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213 

not sure what he exactly did. 

Q Do you know Linn Jenkins or Linn Jacobowitz? 

A I met her, yes. 

Q Where did you meet her? ^oi^-^ 0\''^ 

A I met her when she first came to Viae and Colonel 
Jacobowitz introduced her to us, to people in the office and 
I would meet her at TGIF's every week in our office and she 
would be there. 

Q Did you know she was working for Rich Miller? 

A When I found out, which is way after I left, I 
almost dropped my teeth. I meain I was shocked. 

Q Did you feel it was inappropriate? 

A I thought it was totally inappropriate. 

Q Did you know she had made a presentation for the 
large contract that was classified Secret to LPD on behalf of 
IBC? 

A I did not know that. I have heard bits and pieces 
sine* that. It was not very proper. 

Q When did you learn this, she worked for IBC? 

A "^le last year. 

Q When you learned she was working for IBC, did you 
inform anyone you thought it was inappropriate? 

A I thought it was — I think Otto was already in 
Caracas, and I didn't know Bob Kiagan all that well, I really 
didn't think it was — I should armchair quarterback -- 

nmriiicoir-if^ 



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UNO^ASSIFIiPn? 



214 



Q You knew Rich Miller didn't you? Did you mention 
it to Rich Miller? 

A It was way too late. I haven't talked to Rich in, 
I don't know how long. 

Q When is the last time you talked to Rich? 

A A year, a year and a half, two years ago. 

Q I want to ask you about a few names. We mentioned 
Roy Godson earlier and you said you met him, but you didn't 
really know — 

A He sends his good wishes. 

Q When did you talk with him? 
MR. CHRISTMAS: To counsel? 

THE WITNESS; Yes. Thursday morning on the 9:90 
a.m. shuttle to LaGuardia. 

BY MR. OLIVER: -• 

Q What did you discuss with him? 

A I told him I would no doubt be meeting you this 
week. He said, be prepared. 

Q Did he tell you what he discussed with me? 

A No, he did not. He just said be prepared for 
fireworks. ,_^ 

Q Did Bob K^agan tell you the same thing? 

A I think he was a little more diplomatic. 

Q Have you discussed me with anyone else that is 
involved in this investigation in any way? That is a serious 



.3, 



r' 



UMClASSlCScn 



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UHCtASStEKiT 



215 






^'' 



question. 

A No. No, I haven't. 

Q Do you know Ed t Vjl e ^?, 

A I may have met him once. I know who he is 

Q Do you know Terry Sleaze? 

A No. 

Q Do you know Faith Whittles6y? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you first meet Faith Whittlesey? 

A I think in the 1980 ceunpaign. She was involved 
in Pennsylvania. 

Q Did you work closely with Faith Whittlesey when 
you were at LPD? 

A I was sort of engaged in shuttle diplomacy between 
her office and other places. No one could work closely with 
them, they considered us far too liberal. We are on correct 
and cordial terms. 

Q You had Operation Outreach, Cental American Outreach 
ruB by Faith and Bob Riley, is that correct? 

A Yes, absolutely. 

Q You had ARA which also had its public affairs com 
ponent, and then you had LPD, and then you had the NSC. Who 
was calling the shots on this public ceunpaign for Central 
America? ; 

A Until Elliott Abrans came on the scene, there was 



NMOIJICCirirn 



832 



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UIICtASSIEKST 



216 



no one, apparently no one chief, which was a source of great 
frustration. There were times I began to think it represented 
the Knesset. 

Q Was the Central American diplomacy meeting in a 
NSC sort of design to try to coordinate this? 

A Yes. There were many discussions on how we could 

\; lottos 
best temper the n e w s of the public liaison operation. 

Q Do you know Linda Chavez? 

A Yes. ,-f<^ 

Q How did you meet her? 



,0 



A I met here when I was deputy and she replaced 
Faith at the public liaison. 

Q Did your relations with the Central American Out- 
reach prograun improve — 

■■■■■- - '■ ' )■ t\ 
A Yes, considerably. 

Q You worked more closely — her deputy was Linas 
Kojelis, is that correct? 

A No, Linas didn't work on Central America. He was 
th« one who handled the Central American Outreach. 

Q You mentioned Ed Fox worked with you in legislative 
strategy sessions? ' 

A Ed and I kept moving around. We knew each other ^ - 
incarnations. He was with the White House and State. 

Q He was involved in the legislative strategy and 
the effort, legislative effort to contra aid? 



833 



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mPAllfl^l^T 



217 



Right. 



Q And worked with you and North and Fortier and — 

A Before it was -B iM Ball, I guess it was Oglesby's 
operation and people like Al Cranowitz, you name it. 

Q How well do you know John Poindexter? 

A Until I actually became a Senior Director at the 
NSC, not at all. - . 

Q Did you ever discuss Central American policy or 
any activities related to Central America with John Poindexter? 

A I don't think so. I think the closest I got was 
the Grenada trip. 

Q Do you know Dave Fischer? 

A I became, I knew, I met Dave, I guess once I got 



the White House management job. 



?; 



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Q And when was that? 

A When did I meet him? 

Q No, when did you — can you refresh my memory — 

MR. CHRISTMAS: Excuse me. 
(conferring.) 
^ THE WITNESS; I don't remember ever meeting him. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q You got the White House management job in — 
A May of 1986. ■' 

Q Why did you meet him then? 
A I think I met him much later because I kept seeing 



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him in and out of the White House. 

Q Did he have a White House pass? 

A Z discovered later on he did, and when I discovered 

it, I asked he surrender it. 
^ 
'^'>— MR. CHRISTMAS: He made him and a gentleman named 



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A I might have been lax in my LPD but I was "hard- 
ass" in the White Rouse. 

Q Were you aware Dave Fischer had been arranging 
meetings with the President for individuals who contributed 
to the contra cause? 

A I becasM aware soaatia* last sunaer and became 
alarmed. I: ''■ 

Q How did you become aware of it? 

A Z saw him coaing out of either the outer' office, 
or the Oval Offic* and asked hia questions, t(^ not hia, but 
some other people . 

Q And what did, who did you ask these questions of, 
and nhat were the responses? 

A I think Toa Dawson, Don Regan's assistant. 

Q What did he say? 

A Ha said ha was setting up soae briefings on Central 
America. I said that is bizarre, it seems like you are dupli- 
cating the efforts of other groups that already exist, and then 
I saw Dave a few days later and he said, I — he said, let's 



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together, and he called me at one point, I called him back 
and when they said IBC, I went, oh, my God. 

Q And did you say then? 

A I told Tom Dawson I thought we had a problem with 
Dave Fischer. He was involved with IBC. At that point, I had 
heard on the street Rich Millei was actively involved with 
Spitz Channell and I didn't know about any of the activities, 
but I felt a little queasy all of a sudden. It was just a 
suspicion. 

MR. OLIVER: Could we take a short three or four 
minute break? I need to consult with my colleagues. 

(Recess.) 






UNCLASSIFiED 



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MR. OLIVER: I ask the reporter to mark this as 
Exhibit No. 20. 

(Exhibit No. 20 was marked for identification.) 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 
BY MR. OLIVER: m 

Q Mr. Miller, I would like you to examine this docu- 
ment. I ask you if you recognize this document? 

A The top document I don't. Tab A. I do. 

Q You have seen Tab A . ? 

A Yes. 

Q Before the document is titled, "Chronological Event, 
Checklist", is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Could you tell us where you saw this document or 
other similar documents, and tell us about these? 

A I think this was coiq>iled on Ollie North's word 
processor. Ollie — this is an impressive list. Unfortunate ly, 
X don't think about 75 percent of the activities were under- 
takan. Whether this was the security blemket or whatever to 
the po«rers that be, this was to give a feeling that the U.S. 
Government was working in tamdem, and that *« were doing an 
aggressive thing in trying to show that we were going to get 
our message out before a vote, and this was updated, I think, 
every day on Fawn's word processor, by different people throw- 
ing in different things that were supposed to be their respon- 



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sibility, or in certain cases, Ollie assigning them responsi- 
bility. I have to say in all candor this has no relation to 
the actual activity. 

Q Were you then all sent copies of this as these 
things were produced? 

A These were distributed in two ways, either — and 
most people didn't pay any attention to them, they were too 
busy doing their real job. This is primarily a good tool of 
Ollie 's to show that he was in charge, as a Potemkin Village, 
if you want to call it that. i\ 

He would circulate this as the legislative strategy 
meeting held in the sit room with people like the White House 
Legislative Affairs Officer, and in the Pat Buchanan 208 Group, 
show that we were doing an awful lot of stuff. Frankly, as I 
indicated, a lot of this was not being done, and in certain 
cases, Ollie alleged that he was doing things by private 
sector groups of the, for instance, on page 7, that I have no 
knowledge undertaken, and frankly, this is my opinion, I ques- 
tion the propriety. 

Q Did you question it at the time? 

A Yes, at times I told Ollie that the Anti-Lobbying 
Act was being violated. I think he basically shrugged his 
shoulders. He was one of those people that believed that 
the ends justified the means. 

Q Did you indicate to your boss that you were concern- 



IMhisa 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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ed about the propriety of this? 






A No. Frankly, the interesting thing was that there 
were peibple that were involved in daily activities with Congress 
that were privy to this. I think that what was probably the 
bottom line is that these activities were -en the boards, but 
were never done. The track record, for instzuice, of Citizens 
for America was fairly abysmal. 

Q Let me HMVt ask you about a couple of the entries 
on here. On the first page of the Chronlogical Event Checklist, 
it says, "Send resource book on the Contadora process to Congress 
men, media outlets, private organizations and individuals inter- 
ested in Nicaragua." It says, "State LPD^ (Miller Juaows) ", 
which I assume it was you. 

A Yes. .■ 

Q Or it could be Richard Miller. 

A No, it is me. 

Q Did you do this? 

A I am sure, portions. This was a book prepared in- 
hoiM*. 

Q Down a little further, the next to the last para- 
graph, "Encourage U.S. media reporters to meet individual FDN 
fighters" etcetera, and then, "the responsibility is NSC author- 
ity and State LPD Gomez." Is that Framk Gomez? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he do this? 



UNCUSSIEIECL 



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A I think he did. 

Q When you indicated that on the last page there were 
private groups involved, wasn't Frank Gomez a private citizen? 

A Frank Gomez was working as a consultant to the 
State Department, and — 

Q Excuse me. He was an independent contractor. Was 
he paid as an individual consultant or was he under contract 
under the IBC contract? 

A He was under the IBC contract as a partner in IBC. 
Yes, I understand. 

Q There is a difference. 

A Yes. 

Q Being an independent contractor and consultant. 

A You are right. 

Q So basically he was a private citizen? 

A No. We are not going to split legal hairs, but he 
worked for the Office of Public Diplomacy in that activity. 

Q Did he have a security clearance? 

A My understanding was that he did. 

Q Do you know how he got that security clearance? 

A No, I don't. He had been a Deputy Assistant Secre- 
tary of State and it is fairly easy for consultants and con- 
tractors, for former Foreign Service officers to get it. 

Q I am not sure whether that is the case or not, but 
my understanding of security clearances is that when you leave 



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the employment upon which your security clearance is based, and 
as you know all security clearances are based on a need-to-know, 
that your security clearance automatically terminates, and 
that it could only be renewed at the request of someone, and 
it has to be updated and you have t