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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

Y l.l/2:Serial 13760 

United Stales Congressional.. 




i f 




100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 




IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 19 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13760 



United States Government Printing Office 
Washington : 1989 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 

Appendix B: Volume 19 
Depositions 



Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H, Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987. — Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



lanittd States 3enatt 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorcible John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available. 



Sincerely, 




'j (AjL 



6C-^w^ - - V 

Warren B. Rudman v^^ 
Vice Chairman 



III 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON. DC 20515 

(202) 225-7902 

March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U. S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr . Speaker : 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433, 100th Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified fo^-Yelease to the public. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courter, New Jersey 

Bill McCollum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Kerr 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence /Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Fiynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Ray nor 
Joseph D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard Cullen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V. Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



♦The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

III 
Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hobron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Traylor 
Bobby E. Pope 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courter 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Doman 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 19 



Preface XXI 

Miller, Richard R 1 



XIII 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Volume 3 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Bamett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady, Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Carl R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas. Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke, George. 

Clarridge. Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin, Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig R 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC". 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 10 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Rudd). 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn, John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., Jr. 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Lei want, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IIL 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 15 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhorne A. 
Mulligan, David R 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., II. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 19 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 

Royer, Larry. 

Rudd, Glenn A. 

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney). 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert L. 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IIL 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 24 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

Tull, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., III. 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence— were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 



.1 




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UNCUSSIF![e 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

and 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Washington, D.C. 
Tuesday, June 23, 1987 

The deposition of RICHARD R. MILLER, called for 

examination in the above-entitled matter, pursuant to notice, 

in the offices of the Senate Select Committee, Room 901, Hart 

Senate Office Building, Washington, D.C, convened at 2:42 

p.m., before Pamela Briggle, a notary public in and for the 

District of Columbia, when were present on behalf of the 

parties: 



UiSSlFlEO 



pb2 



APPEARANCES ; 



Mmmm 



n 



On Behalf of the Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and Nicaraguan Opposition of the 
United States Senate: 

JAMES E. KAPLAN 

Associate Counsel 

-and- 

W. THOMAS McGOUGH, JR. 

Associate Counsel 

Room 901 

Hart Senate Office Building 

Washington, D.C. 

On Behalf of the Select Committee to Investigate Arms 
Transactions with Iran of the U.S. House of 
Representatives : 

PAMELA J. NAUGHTON 

Staff Counsel 

-and- 

KENNETH R. BUCK 

Assistant Minority Counsel 

H-149, United States Capitol 

Washington, D.C. 

On Behalf of the Witness: 

EARL C. DUDLEY, JR. ESQUIRE 

-and- 

RONALD G. PRECUP, ESQUIRE 

Nussbaum, Owen & Webster 

One Thomas Circle 

Washington, D.C. 20006 



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UNCIASSIHDI 



WITNESS 

RICHARD R. MILLER 

By Mr. Kaplan 
By Ms . Naughton 
By Mr. Kaplan 
By Mr. Buck 



NUMBER 

Miller 1 
Miller 2 
Miller 3 



EXAMINATION 



EXHIBITS 



FOR IDENTIFICATION 



UNCLASSIFIE! 



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PROCEEDINGS 
Whereupon , 

RICHARD R. MILLER 
was called for examination by counsel for the committee, and i 
having been first duly sworn by the notary public, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Could you please state your full name for the 
record? 

A Richard Roderick Miller. 

Q Are you testifying here today, Mr. Miller, pursuant 
to grants of immunity by the Senate and the House select 
committees that compel your testimony? 
A I am. 

MR. KAPLAN: And I'm going to mark as Exhibit 1 to 
this deposition a copy of an order issued by the United 
States District Court for the District of Columbia ordering 
Mr. Miller to testify at proceedings by the Senate select 
committee, and also providing that no testimony or other 
information compelled under this order may be used against 
Mr. Miller. And that's a paraphrase of the order. 

Counsel for the House select committee appearing 
here today has assured Mr. Miller's counsel that the House 
will be forwarding a copy of the immunity and compulsion 



provWont o( CO. 123M 



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IINCIASM 



order that the House select committee has received in 
connection with Mr. Miller's testimony here today. 

I ask the reporter to mark that as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 1 

[Miller Exhibit No. 1 was 
marked for identification.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Mr. Miller, did you meet with Colonel North on 
November 2 0th, 19 86? 

A Yes. 
'"*Q '* And at whose request was that meeting set up? 

A Mine. 

Q And why did you request a meeting with Colonel 
North? 

A We had been in discussion for some time about the 
need to develop a public affairs and congressional effort on 
behalf of the Nicaraguan resistance, the unified Nicaraguan 
opposition. 

Q Were you also concerned that a contra supply 
netfwork that you participated in, which we'll get into later 
during your testimony, was unraveling to some extent, or 
might unravel? 

A I wouldn't characterize it that way. There were 
events taking place in the United States that I thought made 
it possible that both he and I would be drawn into a legal 



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UNCLASSIFIE! 



situation . 

Q And are the events to which you're referring, the 
disclosure of the arms sales to Iran with questions directed 
at you about provision of assistance to the resistance in 
Nicaragua? 

A Again, I wouldn't characterize it that way. It was 
more a case of a closer scrutiny of Colonel North's activities 
and the dredging up by the media of previous newspaper • 
accounts of his assistance through private individuals to the 
resistance movement. 

Q Where did that meeting take place? 

A In his office in the Old Executive Office Building 
and also in the corridor. 

Q Was there anyone in his office when you arrived at 
the OEOB? 

A As I recall, I waited for some time, which was 
customary in those meetings -- probably 30 minutes or so. 
And he finally came out of his door and shut it behind him in 
such a way that I was not able to see who was in the office. 
And it was clear he was doing it so that I wouldn't know who 
was in the office. 

Q And did you ask him who was in the office? 

A I did not. 

Q And did he tell you who was in the office? 



No. 



ltNr.1 ASSIFIEI 



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507 C SurtI N E 2 5 

Wuhingtoo D C 20002 
(202) V46'6«6« 




Q And then I take it you proceeded to have a conver- 
sation with Colonel North in the corridor outside his office? 

A He said, let me walk you to the elevator. And we 
talked briefly about the establishment of the UNO public 
affairs and congressional effort. And I then raised the 
question of potential future legal ramifications for myself 
and my firm, and then ultimately for him. 

Q Did you express to him that you were concerned 
about revelations that had appeared in the press relating to 
closer scrutiny of his activities? 

A Yes, but my grfanary departure point in the conver- 
sation was about the lawsuit that had taken place in Miami 
brought by the Chriotican e against several people who had by 
that point been named as people supporting the Nicaraguan 
movement. And my concern was that as the scrutiny of his 
activities broadened, eventually several other people would 
probably be drawn into it. It had notlEteerf^ismissed by a 
federal judge, and therefore, anybody involved should be 
ready to defend themselves in federal court. 

Q And you considered yourself somewhat involved? 

A I did. 

Q And what was the substance of the discussion you 
had with Colonel North about potential need for you for a 
legal defense? 

A Well, I toId^h^fn.itiM^^'lfN^"'^ *^he people involved 






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507 C StitCT. N E 25 

WuhiOfton. D C 20002 
(202) V46'(>666 



UNOUSSffl 



through my activities, I expected it would cost a considerable, 
amount of money, and he asked how much. And I said, I would 
expect it to be at least a quarter of a million dollars, and 
that doesn't even take you into account. And his response to 
that was, don't worry about me. I 

No, he then asked how much was in the account, and i 
I said about $200,000. But I said, that doesn't even take i 
care of you. And he said, don't worry about me, you keep it I 
for legal costs. ; 

Q And when Colonel North asked you how much was in 
the account, was it your understanding that the account he 
was referring to were maintained by Cayman Islands' corpora- 
tions under your control? , 

A Yes . 

Q And were those accounts maintained in Cayman ! 
Islands' financial institutions? i 

A The one he would have been specifically referring 
to would have been the Intel Co-Operation account at Barclay's j 
Bank, although he at that time did not know it was Barclay's 
BanTc. j 

Q But he did know that it was the Intel Co-Operation I 
account? j 

A Yes . I 

Q Was there anything more to that evening? 

A That was aboyt .ttifi AntWqi6iffi*fc I think I left. It 



mtm 



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107 C Sinn N E 25 

Wiihiii(ioo D C 20001 
(1021 Vtt'MM 



MNCUSSIFI 



wasn't very long. 

Q You went down the elevator? 

A Yes. 

Q Did anyone else either participate, or to your 
knowledge overhear your conversation in the corridor? 

A Not that I'm aware of. 

Q Did Colonel North stay on the floor on which his 
office was when you went down the elevator? 

A I really don't recall. 

Q But he didn't go out with you? 

A No. 

Q Did you then meet with Colonel North on the next 
day, November 21, 1986? 

A I did. 

Q And who initiated that meeting? 

A Colonel North called me, which was unusual, for a 
meeting and said that--his question to me, as I recall now 
was, did we finish what you needed to talk about yesterday. 
And I said, no. And he said, then why don't you come over. 
And I think it took several attempts to get there, and that 
again wasn't unusual. Things on his schedule changed rapidly. 

Q When you several attempts to get there, you're 
referring to changed times in the agreed upon meeting? 

A Correct. 



Q Do you recall what t 



Colonel North called 



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507 C Sum. N E 25 

Vuhjofion. D C :0002 
(202) V«6-M6« 



yNClASSIFIE 



10 



you to set up this meeting? 

A I don't. I recall that when I got there it was 
dark and it was rainy. So I would put it some time in the 
late evening. 

Q The meeting took place in the late evening. And 
what I was asking is whether you had any recollection as to 
the time of day of Colonel North's initial phone call to you 
to set up the meeting? 

A As I sit here, not specifically, no. 

Q What about generally? Was it morning, afternoon, 
before lunch, after lunch? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of when. 

Q How many phone calls would you say intervened 

between the initial phone call and the meeting taking place? 

A It seems to me it got postponed twice. There were 
two instances involving some change in time. It may have 
been changed and then changed back. I'm not sure. But I 
remember twice there was some change in the schedule. 

Q And the meeting then occurred some time in the late 
afternoon or early evening? 

A Well, it was late. I was able to park on G Street. 
It was dark and it was raining. So I would it probably some 
time after 5:00. 

Q And where did the meeting actually take place? 

A I went to his office. Again, I waited briefly. 






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Ml C Sucn. N E 25 

Vuhtfifton. D C Z0002 
(202) V«6'6«6« 



yNCUSSiFlE 



11 



And he came out and we exchanged greetings. I don't recall 
what we specifically said, but he was in effect already 
packing up. He was packing his briefcase and putting on his 
coat. And he said, why don't you give me a ride and I told 
him I would do that. 

So we talked on the way to the car. But I suspect 
only as far as the door, because it was pouring down rain, as 
I recall. And we probably then didn't restart our conversa- 
tion until we got in the car. 

Q Did he say where he wanted you to give him a ride 
to? 

A He said he wanted a ride — I don't remember specifi- 
cally, but it was a general area, like Dupont Circle or 
something like that. I recall where I dropped him off. 

Q Did you then proceed to drive him towards Dupont 
Circle? 

A I did. 

Q And can you tell us about the substance of the 
conversation that you had with Colonel North? 

A I was trying to tell him that I felt that the 
effort — I had previously told him I thought the effort would 
be a minimum of $2.5 million, and potentially as high as $5 
million if it was done correctly. 

Q Now what effort are you referring to? 

A Public relations and_pubJ.ic affairs and congres- 



lic relations and publ^ affaii 



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Vuhmftos. C 200C2 



UNClKSifi 



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sional activities on behalf of UNO. And that I felt that it 
had to be paid for with money that came from outside the 
United States. That it should not be money raised by American 
citizens, it should come from foreign donors. 

And that was the substance of what I was telling 
him this time, that for someone to raise that money would 
make them a foreign agent. I didn't think that was a 
comfortable position for people, and I thought it unlikely 
they could raise that amount of money for that kind of 
effort, and couldn' t somebody be con tacting the likes of "the 
Sultan or^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^or people 

caliber of financial capacity. 

Q What was his response to that query of yours? 

A As I recall, the exchange that happened just as he 
exited my car--it was a very short ride. There was almost no 
one on the road. He said that — I said to him, can't somebody, 
can't Shultz or somebody contact^^^^^^^Hand ask them to 
put up this money? And his response was, I gave one to 
Shultz already and he fupked it up. 

Q And did you unSderstand what he was referring to by 
that comment? 

A No. 

Q Did you ask him what he was referring to? 

A No. 

Q At some other point in_ the .c^pt^ride, did North 



other point in ti 

mf\ AQQ5 



le car^r 

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Wuhmroo. D C 2000! 
(20!) M6-6M« 




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indicate to you that the Attorney General had suggested that 
he get legal advice.? 

A As I recall sometime in that period, either the day 
before that day he had told me that the Attorney General--but 
I don't recall--that the Attorney General had suggested that 
he get legal counsel . 

Q And did he say why the Attorney General suggested 
he get legal counsel? 

A No. 

Q Did he mention to you when the Attorney General 
suggested to him that he get legal counsel? 

A No. 

Q Did you have an impression as to when the Attorney 
General might have suggested to him that he obtain legal 
counsel? 

A No, not really. 

Q Did he describe to you anything more about the 
substance of his conversation with the Attorney General? 

A No. 

Q Did you ask him why the Attorney General suggested 
that he get legal counsel? 

A No. It wasn't that long a conversation. 

Q Do you recall when Colonel North related to you 
that the Attorney General suggested that he obtain legal 



counsel? 



«HM«' 



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Wuhusctoo. C 20002 
(202) Vt6-«666 



UNCUSSI 



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A Again, it's the same answer as before. I'm not-- : 
it's one of those two days. 

Q And by those two days you're referring to Thursday, 
November 20th, 198^ or Friday the 21st? 

A Thursday or Friday, right. 

Q And so it would have been either in the corridor, I 
take it, on Thursday, November 20th, or in the car on Friday, 
November 21st? . 

A I would think so, yes. 

Q You recall that he related the Attorney General's i 
suggestion to you in a face-to-face conversation as opposed 
to over the phone? 

A Yes. I 

I 

Q Did Colonel North say anything else to you about 

Secretary of State Shultz as he was departing the car on I 

i 
Friday, November 21? i 

I 

A Yes, his last words right after he made the i 
statement about the Secretary not succeeding was, he said, if I 
Shultz knew that the Ayatollah was bankrolling this whole \ 
thing he'd had a heart attack, or a coronary — I've forgotten 
which. With that, he got up and left my car. 

Q Did you understand what reference he was making at 
the time? 

A No. 

Q And I take it you didn't have an opportunity to ask 



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107 C Sunt, N b 2 5 

WuhiUfton. DC 20QO: 
(202) M6-6666 



him? 



BNtmSff® 



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A No, I got to think about it all weekend. ; 

i 
Q And did you ask him at any time subsequently to | 

what he was referring? j 

A Didn't have to. i 

Q Where was it that you dropped Colonel North off? j 

A It was an office building on the north — I'm sorry, i 

the southeast side of Dupont Circle. And I think the address | 

is 1800 Massachusetts. 

I 
Q Let the record reflect there are four buildings on | 

I 

the corner of 18th and Massachusetts. One of them is the | 

Selgrave Club; one of them is the National Trust for Historic I 

Preservation; one of them is, again another older building, 

the Yeater Clinic; and one of them is a new office building, 

eight stories high^ that is 1800 Massachusetts Avenue, 

i 
sometimes known as the National Rural Electrical Cooperative I 

I 
Association building. | 

And I take it that your recollection is that you 
dropped him off at the new office building, which is 1800 
Massachusetts Avenue? 
A Correct. 

MR. KAPLAN: I have no further questions on those 
two areas. To accommodate Ms. Naughton who's here on behalf 
of the House select committee, we've covered those two areas 
first, a little out of <y:d|u:«^M^jRi?pt am going to have 



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Wuhinfiofi. D C :0002 
(202) M6'6«66 



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16 



questions going to some background issues and then one other 
area that we'd like to put on the record today. 

So I will break my questioning here and turn it 
over to Ms. Naughton as to whether she has any further 
questions on the events occurring on November 20th and 
November 21st. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you very much. 

EXAMINATION 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Mr. Miller, you mentioned this November 20th 
meeting with Oliver North, sort of in the corridor of the 
OEOB. Do you recall what time of day this was? 

A I'm not sure, but I think it was the afternoon. 

Q When you mentioned the legal problems that may be 
involved with the lawsuit and so forth and he said don't 
worry about me. Did he tell you why you shouldn't worry 
about him? 

A No. 

Q Was that his last comment that you can recall? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he ever indicate to you that he foresaw that he 
had legal problems? 

A No, he didn't indicate it but I think it was clear 
to both of us at that point that he probably did have some 



legal problems. 



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107 C Sam. N E 25 

VuhiAfion. D C 20O02 
(202) )46-6666 



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«5iL;v:o 






Q Did you ever discuss with him what those were 
specifically? 

A Well, in specific terms the only thing we discussed ' 

was the lawsuit in Miami. j 

Q Did Mr. North ever tell you that he had consulted 
with any attorney? 

A He told me--I've heard him use that phrase once, I i 
think, that he had consulted with an attorney, prior to that 

Friday evening. But I can't tell you where specifically or i 

when specifically. i 

Q But the consultation was sometime within that time? 

In other words, we're not talking about two years before then? ; 

A I would say it was within six months of that period | 
at least. 

Q Now when you saw him on November 21st outside of | 

his office or as he was leaving his office, can you recall j 

what your conversation was in the hallway? ! 

A We had already begun talking about the need to have ! 

a public affairs and congressional liaison operation, and the | 

need for it to be staffed and the level of cost associated | 

with it. It was my primary reason for seeing him on Thursday, j 

and this was a subsequent discussion about the same thing. | 

I 

Q When he mentioned that--01iver North had said that I 

I 

the Attorney General suggested he get legal counsel, do you | 



recall how that subject came up? 



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A It was an offhand comment by him, and I don't think 
it fit in real well with whatever the conversation was, 
because I don't recall a conversation about the subject. It 
seems to me it was an offhand comment he made. 

Q Can you visualize where you were when he made that 
comment? 

A I can't specifically for you. 

Q Did it arise in the context of your activities 
involved in supporting the freedom fighters in Nicaragua? 

A Again, I don't have a specific memory trigger on 
the conversation. I don't--I remember it as an offhanded 
comment. I don't remember it as part of a continuing 
conversation. 

Q Had he discussed the Attorney General with you 



No. 



This was his first reference to the Attorney 



before? 
A 
Q 
General? 

A That I remember, yes. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Thank you. I have no further 
questions. 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q One further question on this topic. Did North tell 
you why he was goin^ _to^ 1^00 Magsagbysetts Avenue? 



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Q And you didn't ask him? | 

I 
A No. I 

Q Now we'll switch gears, and I'm going to go into 

some background information. Are you currently employed, Mr. | 

Miller? j 

A I am. j 

Q And where are you employed? | 

i 
A I'm a senior partner at International Business I 

Communications. | 

i 
Q And for how long have you been employed there? | 

A Four years almost. j 

I 
Q Did you work for a period of time in 1979, 1980 as | 

a director of broadcast services in the Reagan for President | 

campaign? 

A I did. ! 

Q And after the 1980 election, did you work for the I 

I 
Reagan transition team? I 

I 
A I did. j 

i 
Q And sometime shortly thereafter, did you take a 

position as special assistant to the director of public 

affairs at the Department of Transportation? 

A Yes . 

Q And for how long were you employed in that position? 

A Two months 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



20 



Q From thereafter, which I take it was around 
February 1981 until February of 1983, did you serve as chief 
of news and public affairs for the Agency for International 
Development? 

A Chief of news and media relations for one year, and 
then the director of public affairs for another. 

Q So I kind of got the two combined. Then did you 
start International Business Communications as a sole 
proprietorship in early 1984? 

A Yes . 

Q And did IBC become a partnership comprised of 
Miller Communications and Gomez International in 1986? 

A Correct. 

Q And did you incorporate Miller Communications in 
early 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q And was Gomez International, to your knowledge, 
also incorporated in early 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q And again, to your knowledge, is Frank Gomez the 
principal in Gomez International? 

A Yes. 

Q Was a purpose of incorporating Miller Communications 
and Gomez International to restructure an ongoing business 



relationship you had with Fr 



ou had with r'"m'' iVlilfMl a 



nd to form the 



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partnership of International Business Conununications? | 
A That was one of the reasons, yes. \ 

Q Has IBC--ancl I'm referring to International i 

Business Conununications by that shorthand--since its inception] 
generally engaged in media relations, strategic planning for I 
public affairs, political analysis, and executive branch i 

liaison? Is that a fair characterization of IBC's business? : 

I 

A That is a fair characterization of most of IBC's | 
business. i 

Q Would you like to add to that? j 

i 
A We've done some consulting on international trade ! 

I 

and development as well. j 

Q And in or about the spring of 1985, did IBC take on j 
as a client American Conservative Trust, which was a political | 
action committee that had been established by Carl R. 
Channell? 

A Yes. Did you say May? 

Q Spring of 1985. Is that accurate? 

A Yes. 

Q And at some time shortly thereafter, did National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, another Channell 
organization, also become a client of IBC's? 

A They were virtually one and the same for our 
purposes . 

Q So they became clients at_di3out the same time in 



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ONCLASS 






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the spring of 1985? 



A Yes, m the spring of 1985. 

[Witness and counsel conferring.] 

A I think for your record, it would be important to 
point out that we worked for several of the Channell organiza- 
tions and it was Mr. Channell's responsibility to decide how 
the work product was applied to his organization. So NEPL, 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, came 
along later than ACT, the American Conservative Trust. 

Then there were subsequent organizations, who we 
also provided work product to. 

Q Let's just establish for the record that when we 
refer to IBC, we're referring to International Business 
Communications and when we refer to NEPL or N-E-P-L, we're 
referring to the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty. 

A Yes. 

Q Was Daniel Conrad an executive director of NEPL at 
the time that NEPL became a client of yours? 

A Yes . 

Q At or about the same period of time, was IBC 
performing a variety of public relation functions for the 
Nicaraguan Development Council? 

A Yes. 

Q How long had IBC been engaged in those public 



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WUSSIF 



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relations activities? 

A A little less than a year. 

Q At or about that same period of time, and I am 
talking about the spring of 1985, were you also dealing with 
Lieutenant Colonel North on matters relating to the Nicaraguan 
situation? 

A We were dealing with Colonel North on matters 
relating to the Nicaraguan situation and other Central 
American issues . 

Q In or around early April 1985 did you, Frank Gomez, 
Carl Channell and Dan Conrad meet over dinner in Washington, 
D.C. with John Ramsey of Wichita Falls, Texas? 

A Yes. 

Q Was the purpose of that dinner to solicit Mr. 
Ramsey to provide monetary support to Adolfo Calero and the 
Nicaraguan Development Council? 

A Yes. 

Q At the dinner, were certain military needs of the 
resistance discussed, including small arms, ammunition, and 
red eye missiles? 

A I wouldn't use your characterization of needs. The 
types of weapons they were using, how they were supplying ■■- 
themselves, what use they were making of them, all those 
things were discussed. 



To the best of you 



UMM 



.dge, did Mr. Ramsey 



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subsequently make a contribution to the Nicaraguan Development i 
Council? ; 

A Yes . I 

Q Do you recall how much that contribution was? ! 

A It seems to me -- my memory is not clear on this, i 
but I think it was $20,000. 

Q Was it your understanding that that contribution j 
was made, at least in part, as a result of the dinner that we ] 
just discussed, in early April, 1985? i 

A Yes . 

Q In early June, 1985 or maybe it was late May, did 
you receive a call from Colonel North regarding a sum of 
money needed by the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A I believe it was the very beginning of June. 

Q Did North indicate to you that the resistance 
needed $50,000? 

A As I recall, he was looking immediately for 
$30,000. 

Q Did he say something like $30,000 would be neat or 
something to that effect? 

A I'm aware of what you're referring to, but that's a I 
subsequent conversation. But $30,000 was the figure he was j 
searching for. I 

Q Did he give you the number of an account into which 



any money solicited for the ne^d ih<jn_ld be deposited? 



LCitea tor the ne^d ij 



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MILLEII nCPORTINO CO.. INC. 
507 C SuCTt. N E 25 

Wuhui|10>l. DC 20002 
(2021 M6-6666 



UNCLASSIFEO 



25 



A Yes. I 

Q Did North indicate to you for what specific purpose 

the money was needed? 

A Just that it was general assistance to resistance j 

offices. I 

Q Did you ask for the specific purpose, beyond that? ! 

A I don't recall asking for it. i 

Q You referring to a subsequent telephone conversation! 

a moment ago. when did that conversation take place? I 

I 
A At a later point, he asked me to transfer money j 

under my control to an account which was the same account. 

In that instance, he gave me those instructions that you just 1 

talked about. i 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark, I 

as Deposition Exhibit Number 2, a copy of handwritten notes | 

i 
that have been provided to us by your counsel in response to j 

a subpoena issued by our committee. ! 

[Miller Exhibit Number 2 

was marked for identification.]! 

BY MR. KAPLAN: j 

i 
Q I'd ask you to take a look at those notes. Were | 

those notes prepared by you? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that your handwriting? 



Yes. 



\\m mw 



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HUCR mrOATMO CO.. INC 
507 C Stie«i N E 2 5 

Vuhui|Ton. D C 2000J 
(202) M6-6W6 



UNCLASSIFIE 



26 



Q Were those notes prepared during or as a result of 
a phone conversation that you had with Colonel North? 

A I can't recall whether this specific note was a 
result of the phone conversation or a meeting, but I wrote it | 
down from information he gave me. [ 

Q Would this have referred to -- would these notes ; 

have been taken in the context of either a phone conversation i 
or meetings sometime in early June, 1985? j 

A Yes. i 

Q Did you call -- ' j 

A I'm sorry, I have to strike that. If this is from 
the period I believe it is, it's probably July. But it's the i 
same information that I made use of in June. j 

Q In early June. So the notes might have been | 
prepared as a result of a meeting or from a conversation in 
early July, but the information contained in the notes is 
pretty much, if not precisely the same information that 
Colonel North relayed to you in early June? 

A Correct. 

Q Let's stay with early June. Pursuant to Colonel 
North's request in early June, did you then call John Ramsey 
to ask him to contribute toward the need expressed by Colonel 
North? 

A I believe I called Mr. Channell first and he gave me 
Mr. Ramsey's phone numbejr ^nj^ Ji,afl a&jrfra 11 Mr. Ramsey directly. 



inone nujni: 




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UKUK Ktromma co . inc. 

507 C Suc»t N E 25 

Vuhui|Ton. D C iOOO! 
(;02) 546-6666 



UNCIiSSIFlEi 



27 



Q And you did then call Mr. Ramsey? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you give to Mr. Ramsey the account information 
given to you by Colonel North? 

A I did. 

Q Did you later learn that Mr. Ramsey had deposited 
$10,000 directly into the same account, about which you had 
given him information? 

A Yes. 

Q That was the information about the account that you 
had received from Colonel North? 

A Correct. 

Q Did you prepare and send a mailgram over North's 
name thanking Ramsey for his contribution? 

A I did. 

Q Did North authorize the mailgram to be sent? 

A Yes . 

MR. KAPLAN: Can I ask the reporter to mark as 
Exhibit 3 a copy of a mailgram again which has been provided 
by your counsel pursuant to subpoena by the Sejjnate Select 
Committee. i 

[Miller Exhibit ilumber 3 
was marked for identification. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Is this the mailgrcim to which I justj| referred and 



his the mailgrcim to which 

iiMPi hkmm 



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Hiu£R utromma CO.. mc. 

507 C StKTl N E 25 

Wuhinpoo. D C 20002 
'2021 ^4A.AAAA 



UNCIASSIF 



r^ 



to which you just referred in your testimony? 

A Yes . 

Q Just for the record, the mailgram reads "Thank you 
for the help on such short notice" over the name of Colonel 
North and the mailgram is sent to Mr. John Ramsey in Wichita 
Falls, Texas. Is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Do you recall whether you gave, to Colonel North, a 
copy of this mailgram? 

A I believe I did. 

Q On or about July 9, 1985, did you participate at a 
meeting at the Hay-Adams Hotel with Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad 
and Colonel North? 

A Yes . 

Q Was the purpose of that meeting that Mr. Channell 
wanted to ensure that money that had been contributed by NEPL 
contributors for the benefit of the Nicaraguan resistance 
was, in fact, being used for that purpose? 

A He wanted to be sure that it was being sent to the 
correct place. 

Q At that meeting, did Mr. Channel! ask Colonel North 
where contributions for the resistance should be directed in 
the future? 

A Yes. 

Q What did Colonel North respond? 



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■U-OI nVOffTWO CO.. MC. 

)07 C Sbctt. n e 25 

Wuhiafion O C 20C02 



UNCUSSi 



29 



iL^i 



A His response was to send them to IBC. 

Q Had you formed, by that time, a Cayman Islands 
corporation known as I.C., Inc.? 

A I had. 

Q Was I.e., Inc. formed for reasons unrelated to NEPL 
or IBC's efforts on behalf of the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A Yes. 

Q Was Colonel North aware of the existence of I.e., 
Inc. before the July 9 dinner or meeting to which we just 
referred? 

A Yes. 

Q Was the ncirae of I.C., Inc. changed in early May, 
1986, to Intel Co-Operation, Inc.? 

A Yes. 

Q Pursuant to Colonel North's suggestion at the July 
9 meeting or dinner, did NEPL begin to make payments for the 
Nicaraguan resistance to IBC? 

A Yes . 

Q Did NEPL continue to make such payments at various 
times though the fall of 1986 to IBC and to Intel Co-Opera- 
tion? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you make various disbursements over time of 

those NEPL payments to IBC, I.C., Inc., and Intel Co-Opera- 
tion? 



\Mussra 



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wun Nvomwo eo.. hc. 

X)7CSaf«j. NE 25 

Wutunftnn. C 20002 
(202) )46.<M« 



mm. 

sLnOw 




30 



L.jl^ 



Yes. 



Q And by those NEPL payments, we're both referring to 
payinerits made by NEPL to IBC or Intel Co-Operation to support 
or provide assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance, is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q In almost all cases, were those disbursements made 
pursuant to a direction you received from Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Were those disbursements made to recipients or bank 
accounts identified by Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q At the time that those disbursements were made, is 
it fair to say that you did not ask and generally were not 
told the purpose of the particular disbursements? 

A Could you repeat your question? 

Q Yes, I'm sorry. At the time that the disbursements 
were made, that is the disbursements that were directed by 
and to recipients or bank accounts identified by Colonel 
North, is it fair to say that you did not ask and Colonel 
North never told you what the purpose was of those disburse- 
ments? 

A It's not a fair characterization. It varied from 
time to time. It is true that in most of the large disburse- 



ments, I did not know the identify of the recipients. 



uNpi mm 



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HU-EK KCrORTINO CO.. INC. 

!07 C Suert. N E 25 

Wuhixjpon. D C i0002 
(JO!) 5«.66«6 



UNCUSSIF 



V 



31 



Q I take it you knew the identity, but you didn't 
know anything beyond the simple fact of the identity? 

MR. DUDLEY: Could we go off the record for a 
second? 

[Discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, just to clarify the record, it might be 
helpful if you did tell us what you knew about the recipients 
of money from IBC or Intel Co-Operation that was directed by 
Colonel North? 

A It varied by recipient. The largest portion of the 
monies received by Lake Resources, we had raised for specific 
activities, such, as resupply operations. But how it was 
specifically sent, I can't tell you. 

In the case of the some of the other large recipi- 
ents, such as Alpha Services, and Mr. Calero's organizations, 
my impression -- the information that I got from Colonel 
North about the money transferred was very small, next to 
nothing, just account information. 



fT>/V 



(^) 



In the case of the UNO and pW/tiNO organizations, I 
had a very good handle on the money that was being -- the 
need for the money because it was money I was approached for, 
and then there was a variety of other recipients who were 
directed by — I was directed by Colonel North to send money 
to, the use of which I had no idea, and they included people 

UMPI Accinrp 



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WIX£lt RErODTINO CO.. (NC. 

107 C Sunt. N E 25 

Vuhui|ion D C 20002 
(2031 146 6666 



yNCUSSiffi 



32 



like the Latin American Strategic Studies Institute, the 
Terrorism and Subnational Conflict Institute. 

I generally knew who these people were, but I 
didn't have any idea of how they were spending the money. 

Q Were approximately $1.7 million of IBC and I.C., 
Inc. disbursements directed by Colonel North to a Swiss bank 
account held by Lake Resources? 

A Yes. 

Q At some point in the late fall or early winter of 
1985, did Mr. Channell ask you to have North prepare and 
provide a list of big ticket items needed by the Contras? 

A He asked me to get from Colonel North some descrip- 
tion of big ticket items that he could approach contributors 
with. 

Q And was there a bottom line dollar aim that these 
big ticket items should add up to? 

A Initially, as I recall, it was about $1.2 million. 

Q Did you understand that the list was to be used by 
Channell to solicit contributions for that resistance? 



A 
Q 
A 
Q 
to you? 
A 



Yes. 

Did you relay the request to Colonel North? 

Yes. 

Did Colonel North then orally provide such a list 

He provided orally information on several items 

JIMP! AdQiprn 



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Mum Ktronjwto co.. mc. 
107 C Sum. N E 25 

Vuhmfton. O C 20002 



UNCLASSIF 






33 



that I then incorporated into a list. 

Q Did you enter that list onto your computer at the 
time? 

A I did. 

Q Do you recall that the list provided by Colonel 
North orally included heavy lifting of cargo by aircraft? 

A Yes . 

Q Did the list from Colonel North also include the 
training and outfitting of an urban tactics unit? 

A Yes. 

Q Did the list also include the resupply of the 
resistance unit known as the Larry McDonald Brigade? 

A I believe so. 

Q Do you believe that the list provided orally by 
Colonel North also included missiles of some kind? 

A I believe that's true, but I don't have a copy of 
the list anymore, so I can't point to it specifically, but I 
did discuss specifically with Colonel North shoulder launched 
surface to air missiles. 

Q Did you print a copy of that list from your 
computer? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you provide that list to Channell? 

A Yes. 



Did 



5t from your computer? 



35 



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ULLEU KCPOimNa CO-. INC 

i07 C Sirc«t. N E 2 5 

Vuhinpon D C JOOO: 



Yes. 



UNCUSSIF 



34 



ILU 



Q I take it you don't have a copy of that list today? 

A I didn't retain a copy then. 

Q Sometime in early November, 1985, did you par- 
ticipate in a solicitation of funds from Mrs. Barbara 
Newington? 

A I participated in a solicitation of Barbara 
Newington, yes. 

Q In preparation for the solicitation, did you 
prepare a file folder which contained a picture of a Soviet 
HIND helicopter on one side and a picture of a shoulder held 
surface to air missile on the other side? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you meet with Mrs. Newington, Mr. Channel 1 and 
Colonel North in a suite at the Hay-Adams Hotel? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall the date of that meeting? 

A I've been subsequently told that it was the -- 

Q November 7? 

A 7, but I'm noc quite certain about it, to be honest. i 

Q You recall it was in the early November time period? i 

A No, I don't specifically recall the date, but I I 
recall the meeting. | 

Q At the meeting, did Colonel North describe to Mrs. i 
Newington the threat posed to the Nicaraguan resistance by j 

IIMP! Accrnrn 



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WUXM NVOKTWO CO.. MC. 
i07 C Sottt N E 25 

Wiihin(lii«. D C 20002 
(2021 i*t-6666 



HIND helicopters? 



ONCUSSIFIED 



35 



A Yes. 

Q Did North refer to the file folder that had been 
prepared by you? 

A Briefly. 

Q Did North describe the capability of the shoulder 
held surface to air missile that was in the file folder to 
counteract the HIND helicopter? 

A He did refer to surface to air missiles but only 
generally. I don't think he specifically referred to the one 
in the folder. 

Q When you said before that Colonel North referred 
briefly to the file folder that you had prepared, how did he 
refer to it? 

A I don't remember the specific conversation, but he 
was describing to Mrs. Newington how the HIND helicopters had 
changed the battlefield tactics of the resistance forces, 
breaking them into smaller units, not allowing them to have 
large collections of soldiers. I also had a copy of a New 
York Times piece on the HIND helicopter, and as I remember he 
used that far more prominently than he used the folder. 

Q Did Mrs. Newington ask Colonel North if he knew 
where to obtain surface to air missiles? 

A As I recall, her specific question was, and you 
know where to get these? And he said ves, we know. 



3t these/ And he saidve 

\\m h^MwA 



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WLiMH HfrOfmNQ CO . MC. 
W7 C StK« N E 25 

Wishmflo" D C 20002 



ICUSSlFiEO 

Q And did Colonel North quote any prices to Mrs. 
Newington? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Did Mr. Channel! then ask Mrs. Newington if she 
would help by contributing money to the resistance? 

A Are you asking me if that was -- are you asking in 
proper time? Because I'm not sure whether Colonel North was 
still in the room at the time. 

Q I was going to ask you was Colonel North in the 
room when Channell asked for a contribution? 

A Colonel North, I don't think, was in the room when 
Channell asked her for a specific contribution. 

Q Do you know whether or not his absence from the 
room at the time of Channell 's request was prearranged? 

A I don't think specifically, but it was his practice 
not to be in the presence of the donor when they were asked 
for money. 

Q Just so we clarify the record, did Channell ask Mrs. 
Newington if she would contribute money for the Contras? 

A Yes. 

Q And did Mrs. Newington indicate whether she would 
contribute? 

A Yes. 

Q What did she indicate? 

A As I recall, I'm not sure jaihf A2>g>f I knew it 



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Uaxn MKKTWO CO.. INC. 
507 C Suttt N E 25 

Washin|iafl. D C 20002 
1202) M«-MM 




37 



specifically that night or subsefoeatly/ but it was 

$1,200,000. " "'^ /^ 

Q And are you aware that Mrs. Newington- later made 

stock contributions to NEPL of approximately $1 million? 
A Yes. - ^ ^^ 

Q And^ are you aware that those coatriButions were 

made sometime within the next four to six weeks? 

A Yes. ^^p- ^ "~ _ 

-^^^^ '■-'- 
Q Were those cpntributipns^^'^^sequeatly passed to IBC 

.^^. .-- _ _:^ " ' 
and then tcfeXt^, Inc> for £uri;ea^le^Li^ia>vi.ding assistance 

to the res-i*tWfce mtwement-?- --_ ^~" '" -f^- 

A The9^^#ere p aaae d t^ igj*JMn<f^thett"€Sey- were passed 

on for the resis%emc©^ Without the report in front of me, I 

can't tell you -whet her^^iJ. of it went teJ ueeu oh B^ ■ . Inc. or 

y ha ve ~jjtop|^H*ec ^^^^jJSSf. " - Res ourcgs 

passed, we^fia«*taTlld° that ^g,^^fet^^U^^6ei«r8^urned from 
stock into ^ash pr^or to ^s^lng been patraed to IBC? 

A I believe that's correct, by NEPI^ '~^^. 

Q Wa8^_aiere aH^me after NEPL )ySg&l making payments 

to IBC and_I .C .^-Inc .-aCo^ €fe Eea«t.«ft^^mbvement , that you 
discussed witH^^^nel No^h your desite an?t"1rft#-<J5sire of 
Frank Gomez to" receive ^compensation both for the services you 
were performing and the professionj^I risk-involved in the 
tunneling of funds to the resistance? 

uMni aoosorp 





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Hiuzn RcroHTiHa co., mc. 

507CSUCT1 NE 25 

WuhmfTon. D C 20002 



UNCLASSIHE 



A Yes. 

Q When did you have that discussion with Colonel 
North? 

A Sometime in late '85 or very early in '86. 

Q Did you tell Colonel North that you and Mr. Gomez 
wanted to receive 10 percent of the NEPL payments that were 
flowing through IBC or its related entities? 

A That's correct. 

Q And did Colonel North agree that you and Mr. Gomez 
could deduct 10 percent of those payments as compensation? 

A Yes. 

Q And in approving that compensation, did Colonel 
North indicate that he believed that 10 percent was reason- i 
able? ; 

A Yes. 

Q Did he say that 10 percent was reasonable because i 
most of the other people in the business of providing 
assistance to the Contras were taking 20 to 30 percent, or 
something to that effect? 

A That's almost exactly what he said. ! 

Q Did you ultimately arrange to take 10 percent of ! 

the contributions that flowed through IBC and/or its related | 

i 
entities? j 

A Yes . 

Q Did you pay that amoup^ |.^f fef^poration that you 



w\TOinFn^ 



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)07 C Sum. N E 25 

VuhiniTon. D C 20002 
' m!l M6.6666 



mumi 



39 



established in the Cayman Islands called World Affairs 
Counselors, Inc.? 

A Yes . 

Q Did they money that went into ^rld Affairs 
Counselors, Inc., that is the 10 percent, ultimately find its 
way to Miller Communications and Gonea International? 

A ¥es*;^ " „ -^ 

Q -DidT-you ever *ell Chanttellr"or~€onrad that you were 
taking the fi^percent cut" from the contributions that were 
flowing thro\^h.? "g ^ __ '^'- _J_ 

-A -r did^fct telt Mr. Chemnelli, until December or 
January of this^ast y ea r ." .^ 

MR. KAPlaN: I have no further questions under our 
arrangement wittr~your"=e©un3el= to call you in on such short ' 

'^3uei^.^ ^^^ p y f%xpaiarcm£ reafeey^i ^^^tcg^ call yo^&acK^at 
soWKs later _pSthf3n~€ime, to take your testfffibny under oath 
on a broader range of issues. I juBt want to state that for 

the recoi?d. ^=^ 

rr^is~the short notice to ^u and also the Tact 
that we know that you've been invoked in heavy preparation 
and grand jury testimony recently, wfiFch led us ^tp f*|Bit our 
examinations today and I appreciate you and-your counsel 
coming down here and I apprec^te ^our cooperation in 
responding t^lW 




41 



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■LLU HEKJRTINO CO.. INC 
M7 C SutTt, N E 
Wahmpon. D C 20002 



UNWSSlFiEl) 



40 



I don't know if House Minority Counsel has any 
further questions but I'll leave the floor to him. 

MR. BUCK: I'd just like to ask you a few questions, 
Mr. Miller. 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. BUCK: 
Q Did you know Mr. North to exaggerate stories at 
all? Did you find him to embellish tales? 

A I've never seen any indication that he had done 
that. I've seen newspaper accounts of it, but I've never had 
any personal experience with him doing that. 

Q Did you know that Mrs. Newington's home was 
searched for bugs, for electronic eavesdropping devices, at 
one time? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you feel that was necessary? 
A It was necessary to her, so we accomplished it. 
MR. BUCK: I have no further questions. 
[Whereupon, at 3:44 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition was concluded.] 






42 



pb59 



MILLf R MrO«TMO CO . MC 
)07 C Sircti, N E 
Wuhififion. O C 10001 




41 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 



I, PAMELA BRIGGLE, the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of 
the testimony given by the witness; that I am neither counsel 
for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 
action in which this deposition was taken; and further, that 
I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise 
interested in the outcome of the action. 



PAMELA BRIGGLE 



Notary Public in and for t!ie 
District of Columbia 



My Commission expires May 14, 1990. 




inr 



\i\ii% siu. 



43 



OKMI^-AL 




44 



mxin DvoiiTHa co.. mc 

507 C Succt, N E 
Vuhinifon D C 20002 



UNCLASSIHED 



42 I 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 
ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Friday, July 3, 1987 

Washington, D.C. 

The continued deposition of RICHARD R. MILLER was 

commenced at 9=15 a.m., in Room 901, Hart Senate Office 

Building, when were present: 

For the Senate Select Committee: 

THOMAS MC GOUGH, ESQ. 
Associate Counsel 

For the House Select Committee: 

KENNETH R. BUCK, ESQ. 
Assistant Minority Counsel 

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ. 
Staff Counsel 

FOR THE DEPONENT: 

RONALD G. PRECUP, ESQ. 
ADINA N. AMITH, ESQ. 
Nussbaum, Owen and Webster 
1800 M Street, Northwest 
Washington, D.C. 20036 
^ ■ Partially Declassified/Released on I tj-eii ' ** 7 

' : ' under provisions of E.G. 12356 

by N. Menan, National Security Council 



UNOkSSW 



82-724 0044 



45 



inxut KcrottTwa eo.. inc. 

107 C Screti. N E 

Tuhiopon. D C :0002 



CONTENTS 



Examination by Counsel for: 
House Select Committee (Mr. Buck) 
Senate Select Committee (Mr. McGough) 



EXHIBITS 



Miller Deposition Exhibits 

4 

5 

6 

7 



DMtUSSlFiED 



43 i 

i 
Page j 

I 

4 I 

I 

31 j 

I 

For Identification i 

4 ■ 

32 

33 

40 



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507 C Sitcei S E 25 

Vuhuifion. O c :oao2 



mwssiniB 



PROCEEDINGS 

(9: 15 a.m. ) 

MR. BUCK: Let's go on the record. 

Mr. Miller, my name is Ken Buck and I am the 
Assistant Minority Counsel with the House Select Conunittee, 
and I'd ask everybody at the table to just introduce them- 
selves, please. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I'm Tom McGough, Associate Counsel 
to the Senate Select Committee. 

MR. FRYMAN: I'm Thomas Fryman, Staff Counsel ro 
the House Committee. 

MS. AMITH: I'm Adina Amith, an associate at 
Nussbaum, Owen and Webster, representing Mr. Miller. 

MR. FRECUP: I'm Ronald G. Precup, representing Mr. 
Miller. 

MR. MILLER: I'm Richard R. Miller, witness. 

MR. BUCK: Mr. Miller, I'd remind you that you ' le 
under oath. This is a continuation of your previous deposi- 
tion. 

At this time, I'd like to mark the order from the 
House Select Committee, order granting immunity, as Exhibit 1 
in the Miller deposition. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Excuse me. If we are making this a 
continuation of the other deposition, there is already a 
Deposj 



'"°" ^^' "' ; iijiniMSiFltD 



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UNCLASSinED 



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MR. PRECUP: Yes. This would be number 2. 
. MR. MC GOUGH: No. We ' ve got 1 , 2 , 3 . This should 
be Deposition E.xhibit Number 4. 
MR. PRECUP: Number 4. 

[Whereupon, the document was 
marked as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 4 for identifica- 
tion. ] 
Whereupon, 

RICHARD R. MILLER 
was recalled as a witness and, having pre'/iously been duly 
sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. BUCK: 
Q Mr. Miller, are you a partner in International 
Business Communications, or IBC? 
A Yes. 

Q Is IBC a political and media consulting firm? 
A Among other things, yes. 

Q Since graduating from the University of Maryland in 
1976, have you been employed in the field of broadcast 
services and public affairs? 
A Yes. 

Q Would you say your area of expertise is public 
affairs or fund-raising? 



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A I would say it's public affairs and business and 
trade promotion. 

Q Before April 1985, how many fund-raising jobs had 
you held? 

A None . 

Q Is it fair to say that your greatest exposure to 
fund-raising a result of having Mr. Channell's corporations 
as clients? 

A Greatest, yes, but not only. 

Q What other exposures have you had? 

A I was exposed to it during the Reagan campaign and 
I've had a contract with a couple of direct marketing firms. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North was a fund-raiser by 
profession in 1985? 

A No. 

Q Did Frank Gomez have fund-raising experience before 
April 1985? 

A Not that I'm aware of. 

Q Did you know of Mr. Channell's fund-raising 
experience when you met him in early 1985, or did you learn 
of it soon thereafter? 

A I learned about his experience in the spring of 
1985. 

Q Did you learn about Mr. Conrad's experience also 
during that 



::i IJNCIASSIFIEO 



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A Yes. 

Q Did yc'j know that Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad had 
extensive experience raising funds for tax-exempt corpora- 
tions? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you believe Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad would 
determine the legality of their fund-raising techniques? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you rely on Colonel North to determine the 
legality of the expenditures of Lake Resources? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. Channell discuss weapons needs of the 
Nicaraguan resistance with potential contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of Mr. Channell contacting Colonel 
North to tell Colonel North the specific weapons which 
particular contributors donated money for? 

A I don't have any direct knowledge of that. 

Q Is Colonel North the type of person, in your 
opinion, to buy weapons which Mr. Channell told him he should 
buy? Can you answer that? 

A Yes, easily. No. 

Q Okay. Is it your opinion that Mr. Channell 
discussed the weapons needs of the Nicaraguan resistance with 
potential contributors as a fund-raising technique? 



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A Yes, it's possible. 

Q Were you aware that the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty, or NEPL, was a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt 
corporation? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you become aware of this? 

A Probably June. 

Q Of? i 

A ',85. 

Q Did you know that tax-exempt corporations can only 
spend their money for limited purposes? 

A I was generally aware of that at the time. 

Q What is your understanding of those limited 
purposes? 

A Now, it's pretty good, but back then it was that it 
simply could not be used for--my only concern was that it not 
be used for things that would violate the Neutrality Act of 
the United States or the Export Act, Export Control Act. 

Q Did you ever tell Mr. Channell to use NEPL, as 
opposed to any of his other corporations, for the purpose of 
raising money for the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Channell the ap- 
propriate Channell organization to receive money raised for 
the resistance? 



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. I II ^.Ml II II 

A No. 

Q Are you aware of Colonel North ever advising Mr. 
Channell which of Mr. Channell's organizations should receive 
money which was raised for the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A I'm not aware of any such conversation. 

Q Would Colonel North's advice on this matter be 
inconsistent with the division of responsibilities, as yoa 

saw those? 

i 

A Yes. 

Q To your knowledge, was Colonel North involved in 

j 
the day-to-day operation of any tax-exempt corporation? i 

A No. ! 

Q Was Colonel North present when you or anybody yc^u i 

know solicited money for the Nicaraguan resistance? 

I 
A In--let me think. Once he was present, but not in i 

i 

immediate proximity. On another occasion, I still don't have 

a clear recollection, but I believe he left the room before I 

I 
the actual solicitation took place. | 

I 
I 

Q Was it Colonel North's practice to excuse himself 

when potential contributors were being solicited for money on 

behalf of the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A Yes, and initially he refused to even be present I 

I 
during solicitations. I 

Q Do you have any knowledge that Colonel North kne 

what organizations Mr. Channell or his employees were 

?cM«i Rooirirn 



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soliciting money for? 

A I don't think he had a specific knowledge of which 
organizations, but he knew Mr. Channell was president of 
NEPL, National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

Q Did he also know that Mr. Channell was president of 
the American Conservative Trust? 

A Yes - 

Q Sentinel? 

A Probably. 

Q In other words, Mr. Channell had a great number of 
corporations that he could have been raising money for, and 
what I'm asking is did Colonel North know which of those 
corporations he was raising money for? 

A Besides the fact that I think you're extending the 
universe on this, I can't — I know he knew about NEPL and I 
know he knew about ACT. The others, I can't tell you because 
we produced commercials that had ACT on them initially which 
he had seen, and National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty was prevalent on the literature that he saw at the 
time of summer of '85 and into '86. 

Q My question is whether Colonel North knew that Mr. 
Channell was raising money for a tax-exempt corporation. 

A I can't speak for him in that regard. 

Q Do you know specifically--. 

A We have to revisit that question. 



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Q Okay, let's. 

A . His office, particularly--I think it was Bob Earl 
requested a list of tax-exempt organizations who were on the 
Administration side of the issue and one of them, as I 
recall, was the American Conservative Trust. I don't think 
one of them was the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty. 

Q Who did he request the list from? 
A From Tie. He asked me to put it together, so he 
would have known that the American Conservative Trust was a 
501(c), whatever it was, (6) or (4), because it would have 
been on the list, and you have that document somewhere. 

Q Okay. You're aware that Colonel North knew that 
Mr. Channell was raising money for the Nicaraguan resistance? 
A Yes. 

Q And you're also aware that Colonel North knew that 
Mr. Channell had a few organizations, a few corporations? 
A Yes. 

Q Are you aware of whether Colonel North knew which 
organizations Mr. Channell was using to solicit money for the 
Nicaraguan resistance? 

A I don't recall a specific conversation between 
North and myself on which Channell entity was raising money. 

Q Do you specifically know if any of the money which j 
was received by International Business Communications, IC, i 



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Inc., or Intel Cooperation, or which was distributed to other 
accounts from those corporations was used to buy weapons? 

A I don't know. I think the vast majority of it was 
not, and I think I can prove that to some certainty. 

Q But my question has to do with the time frame 
within which the money was being raised. At that time, di<:l 
you know of any of that money being used to buy weapons? 

A At that time, we had specifically raised SI million 
for weapons . 

Q Thank you, and did you spend that money on weapons? 
Did you personally spend that money on weapons? 

A No. 

Q So, to your knowledge, the money was spent--i.f ir 
was spent on weapons, it was spent on weapons by someone else? 

A Correct. 

Q And the money was out of your control when it was 
spent on weapons? 

A Correct. 

Q So you have no personal knowledge whether money was 
ever spent on weapons, or do you have any personal knowledge? 

A No. 

Q Let me ask you more specifically, do you have any 
knowledge of whether contributions to NEPL were used to 
purchase military and other types of non-humanitarian lid for 
the Contras? HllinS ft 00 



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inu 



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MLLiR mp o i umi CO.. mc 

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1 j A I am generally aware that money raised by NEPL was 

2 ' used in the air resupply operation, which would have been a 

■i 

3 I military underta.king, but aside from that I don't have any-- 

:i 

4 j| Q Could you define military undertaking for me? 

5 I A There was initially an effort to deliver the 27 

6 : million in humanitarian assistance to fighters deep inside 

7 ;! Nicaragua, and then eventually it was a full resupply 
operation. 

9 Q Delivering lethal and non-lethal aid? 

10 i A Correct . 

11 Q Okay. I want to distinguish between a delivery of 

12 I military aid and necessarily military. 

13 A And the answer is no. 

14 Q Okay, if you buy that distinction, if you agree 

15 with that? 

16 A I not only agree to it; it was exactly what was the 

17 state of mind at the time. It was the way we viewed it. 

18 Q That an air resupply was not a military operation? 

19 A Was not military aid; it was not lethal aid. It 

20 was an allowable expense. 

21 Q Of? 

22 A Of anybody in the United States to make. It wasn't 

23 in violation of the Neutrality Act and was not in violation 

24 of the Arms Export Act. 
Q 



Could you tell me how you developed that knowledge 

MAini Aoosnrn 



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or opinion? 

A My general discussion with Colonel North, discussion 
with attorneys, and discussion with my partner, who was o 20- 
year Foreign Service officer. 

Q Did Colonel North ever show you a legal opinion 
from a Washington, D.C., law firm which discussed that issue? 

A No. 

Q Are you aware of whether Colonel North may have had 
an opinion on that subject, a legal opinion? 

A Generally, but I have no specific knowledge of who 
the law firm was or what the specifics of the opinion war, 
but he had referenced it one time. 

Q Okay. Do you know of any contributions to NEFL 
which were solicited and were ultimately used to purchase 
military and other types of non-humanitarian aid for the 
Contras? 

A Your question hinges on "ultimately used, " aside 
from the air resupply effort. 

Q Was it the intention of everybody involved to 
purchase particular weapons with particular contributions at 
the time that the money was being raised? 

A Again, in the one instance in which we were 
specific about weapons, it was a specific contributor, 
specific amount for a specific weapon. 

Q And what contribution was that? 



pr?m^ *003r?rn 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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1 I A That was Mrs. Newington. It was roughly $1 million 

2 and it was for 50 shoulder-launched. heat-seeking ground-to- 

3 air missiles . 
i 

4 Q Are you aware of whether that money was used to 

5 I purchase missiles? 

6 I A No. In fact, that's the one instance in which I 
I 

7 ! asked Colonel North--l had seen in the paper and on tele- 

8 I vision--I read everything on the subject, and did back then 

9 as well, and I didn't see any evidence of an increase in the 

10 number of missiles on the ground and the Hind helicopters 

o - 

11 were continuing to be a pretty deadly counter-f force . 

y 

12 And I asked him why there was not more evidence of 
! 

13 ] missiles and his response was they didn't need the missiles-- 



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they needed the radios more than they needed missiles. They 
needed these more than they needed missiles, and he brought 
out a brochure which was of some kind of radio, an encrypted 
radio of some kind. 

Q Did you meet Mr. Channell at a meeting for the 
Nicaraguan refugee dinner in early 1985? 
A Yes. 

Q Was this the first time you met Mr. Channell? 
Yes. 

Did you meet Dan Conrad around the same date? 
No. 



When did you meet Mr. Conrad? 



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A I think the first time I met Conrad was when he 
came with Channe.'.l to my office. 

Q Which was? 

A April . 

Q Of 1983? 

A Right. 

Q Soon after the Nicaraguan refugee dinner, did you 
receive a call from John Roberts in which he told you that 
Mr. Channejil wanted to help the President on Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it your impression that Mr. Channell wanted to 
do a media campaign to encourage public support for a future 
Congressional vote on Contra aid? 

A Yes. 

Q Did John Roberts indicate to you that Mr. Channell 
expected you to assist Mr. Channell with fund-raising? 

MR. PRECUP: Excuse me. I think you misspoke. You 
used Channell twice in that sentence. Would you just repeat 
the question? 

MR. BUCK: Sure. 
BY MR. BUCK: 

Q Did John Roberts indicate to you that Mr. Channell 
expected you to assist Mr. Channell with fund-raising? 

A No. 

Q What involvement did you have in assisting Colonel 



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North or anyone else on the national security staff with 
Central American issues before you received the telephone 
call from John Roberts? 

A As part of our State Department contract, we had 
provided escort services for defectors from the Nicaraguan 
government, members of the Nicaraguan opposition, internal 
opposition, the senior political figures in other Central 
American countries, and in doing that we had come into 
contact with Colonel North. 

We had also, under instructions from Jonathan 

Miller, worked briefly out of North's office on securing 

'^ 
media appearances and non\-media meetings for Adolfo Cal~5co, 

J- 

Arturo Cruz, and Alfonso P.ubello when they came to Washington 
following their San Jose declaration. 

So we knew Colonel North and he knew of our 
activities prior to our relationship with Channell. 

Q What did John Roberts tell you concerning Mr. 
Channell when he called you the first time? 

A That he used to be one of the NCPAC people, fairly 
high up — I've forgotten how he exactly characterized him-- 
and that he wanted to do something political to help the 
President, and he gave me the name of the organization and 
told me that it was a federal PAC kind of like NCPAC, but 
only--the difference was that Channell only took on issues 
that were supportive of the President and was not publicly 



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critical of the President, even though he may have differed 

I 
with him privately. i 

So his objective was to give the President political' 

action support affirmatively on foreign policy issues with | 

which he agreed with the President, and that was the summation; 

of what Mr. Roberts told me. 

Q Were there other groups or entities that were j 

supporting the white House on Central American policy in j 

similar ways that you were during this time frame? | 



A That I was? 

Q Well, that IBC was. 

A Not that I'm aware of. 

Q Okay. 

A Not in the way IBC did, no; not as a contractor, 
no. There were private groups, non|profit types, but not 
corporations. 

Q So there were private groups that were assisting 
the White House in Central American policy? 

A Several — many would be a better term. 

Q Were you involved in any fund-raisdng efforts with 
Colonel North or the NSC staff before you received the call 

from John Roberts? 

I 
A No. I 

Q Would it surprise you to know that John Roberts 

allegedly referred to your organization as t<he White House 



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outside the white House on the Central American issue? 



Yes, it would surprise me. 

Would that be an accurate statement? 

No. 

Have you known John Roberts since August 19 80? 

Yes . 

Would you characterize your relationship as gor'd 



A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q 
friends? 

A Yes. 

Q Is your relationship with John Roberts over the 
past seven years such that he may have tried to exaggerate 
your importance in the Central American area to convince Mr. 
Channell to use your services? 

A I doubt it. 

Q Okay. How many times did you hear Colonel North's 
briefing on the Nicaraguan resistance in Central America? 

A Twenty times, probably. 

Q Was it a standard briefing or were there radical 
changes in the information given out? 

A It was standard. 

Q Did you participate in helping Colonel North 
develop that briefing program? 

A I know that in the first instance of my seeing it, 
some of the pictures he used were pictures Frank Gomez took 
at the camps in Honduras, which was a pleasant surprise for 



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us, and then much later in '86 following a Channell critique, 
I suggested to Colonel North that the briefing needed to be 
updated and he asked me to put together some recommendations, 
which I did. 

Q Who did Frank Gomez take the pictures for? 

A He was in--well, for himself, but he was in the 
camps as a result of our State Department contract. 

Q So he then gave those pictures to the State 
Department? 

A He gave them to a lot of people. He just made 
multiple sets and provided them to people. 

Q Okay. Would it surprise you to hear that Colonel 
North gave the same standard briefing to 110 different groups 
during an 18-month period? 

A No, not at all. 

Q In the spring of 1985, did Mr. Channell ask you on 
two separate occasions why he could not do more to help the 
Contras? 

A Yes. 

Q Did it appear to you that Mr. Channell had access 
to a group of potential contributors and was seeking foreign 
policy issues so that he could solicit funds and retain a 
percentage of the donation? 

A I wouldn't characterize it that way. He was very 
much interested in addressing the key foreign policy issues 



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of the Reagan Adjninistration and he had settled on Nicaragua, 

r 
terrorism, and the SDI program, and like any non-profit, he 

keeps an administrative overhead. It's a part of his 

operation; it's characteristic of a non4profit. 

Q My question is whether Mr. Channell was attracted 
to the issues and then went out and sought contributors or 
did he have contributors and look for an issue with which to 
seek donations? 

A Oh, I think it was clear to me after the meeting in 
the winter at the time of the Nicaraguan refugee fund dinner 
that he had a large number of very wealthy contributors who 
had a great deal of confidence in him, and that it was a 
matter of him best choosing the issue to which they would 
then apply their resources. 

Q Did Colonel North ask you to discourage Mr. 
Channell 's efforts during this time because Colonel North 
could not envision Mr. Channell in that role? 

A In fact, I asked him at least twice and was 
declined twice for Mr. Channell to raise money directly for 
the resistance. 

Q And you passed this information along to Mr. 
Channell? 

A Well, yes, but I think I did it pretty diplomatical- 
ly and I'm not sure I directly referenced Colonel North, but 
I discouraged him from doing it. 

\v^\7^ Rnf>irirni 



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Q Did Mr. Channell proceed to invite Adolf o Calero to 
speak at a fund-raising dinner? 

A Yes . 

Q Did Mr. Channell and Adolf o Calero discuss the 
purchase of a particular type of airplane around this time 
period? 

A- Yes- 

Q Did Mr. Channell inform you of his conversations 
with Adolf,o Calero? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you inform Colonel North about the conversations 
between Mr. Channell and Adolfo Calero? 

A Yes . 

Q Was Colonel North upset because the plane being 
discussed had no ability to perfoirm the functions for which 
it was intended? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Colonel North give you a peunphlet describing a 
maul airplane? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you give this pamphlet to Mr. Channell? 

A I don't recall giving him the pamphlet, but I 
recall giving him the specifications of the aircraft. 

Q To your knowledge, is this Colonel North's first 
involvement in fund-raising activities by Mr. Channell 's 



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organizations? 

A . Yes. 

MR. PRECUP: Do you want to just go off the record 
while he's out? 

MR. BUCK: Sure. 

(Pause. ) 

MR. BUCK: Go back on the record. 

BY MR. BUCK: 

Q .Mr. Miller, do you know of any specific cases in 
which Colonel North was present when solicitations were made 
for contributions for the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A He was present when solicitations were made. I'm 
not entirely clear whether he left before the actual dollar 
amount was discussed with the contributor. 

Q Was it his general practice to leave before 
solicitations were made? 

A Yes. 

Q Was Colonel North aware of Mr. Channell using NEPL 
to solicit money for the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A Again, specifically, I don't think — I don't recall 
a specific conversation between myself and Colonel North that 
would have indicated that he was specifically aware, but I 
think generally he was aware that NEPL was the entity 
Channell was using for fund-raising. 

Q m early April 1985, did you, Frank Gomez, Mr. 



66 



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Channell and Mr- Conrad meet with John Ramsey? 
A Yes--when did you say? 

tsb' -S^^SBc^- --- ^aS»- ^ — *~ ' 

Q Was the purpose of the dinner to solicit funds from 
Mr. Ramsey to support Adolfo Calero and the Nicaraguan 
Development Council? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did ycu inform Colonel North that you would be 
meeting Mr. Ramsey to solicit funds for Mr. Calero? 

A I don't remember whether I told him or not. 

Q Do you have knowledge whether Colonel North know 
that Mr. Ramsey would be soliciting funds for Mr. Calero? 

A I don't remember specifically. 

Q Did you brief Mr. Ramsey o%n the type of weapons 
that the resistance were using and how the resistance was 
supplying themselves? 

A In general terms, yes. 

Q Who raised the subject of weapons at the Ramsey 
meeting? 

A Gee, I don't recall specifically who did. 

Q Do you recall how the subject was raised? 

A I remember that Ramsey was interested in a shotgun 
drive and we told him that was not legal. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I'm sorry. Not lethal or not legal? 



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THE WITNESS: Legal. It was not legal, and I think 
we then got into a discussion of the types of arms they were 
using . 

BY MR. BUCK: 

Q So you believe Mr. Ramsey raised the subject first? 

A That's my recollection, but, of course, we have the 
transcript and we can look at that. You have it here. 

Q Did you introduce Colonel North to Mr. Channell at 
a briefing, on June 27th, 1985? 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q Was it your understanding that that was the first 
time they met? 

A Yes. 

Q Is it fair to say that weapons were being discussed 
in conjunction with raising money for the Nicaraguan resis- 
tance before you introduced Colonel North to Mr. Channell? 

A I'm sorry. Could you ask the question again? 

Q Is it fair to say that weapons were being discussed 
in conjunction with raising money for the Nicaraguan resis- 
tance before you introduced Colonel North to Mr. Channell? 

A Discussed by whom? 

Q Discussed by yourself and Mr. Channell with Mr. 
Ramsey. 

A Again, in general terms, yes. 

Q Previously in your deposition, you discussed a 



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$10,000 contribution by John Ramsey in June of 1985? 

A Well, there was a contribution. I think it's about 
$10,000. 

Q Okay- 

A It may have been 20, but I'm not clear on the 
ultimate amount. 

Q I believe you also testified that in early June 
1985 you received a call from Colonel North. Did he say the 
resistance needed $30,000? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Colonel North say the resistance needed this 
money because they were ill-fed, ill-equipped, ill-clothed or 
lacked medicine? 

A I don't recall the specific need other than 
recalling that it was not for weapons. I think it was either 
for political affairs or humanitarian assistance, but it was 
a desperate need, nonetheless, whatever it was. 

Q To your knowledge, did Mr. Ramsey's money ever pass 
through a tax-exempt corporation? 

A No. 

Q During your conversations with Colonel North around 
this time period, did you ever discuss the legality of 
Colonel North requesting that you raise money for the 
resistance? 

A No — well, I don't specifically recall a conversation 



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about it. 

Q - On or about July 9th, 1985, did you participate in 
a meeting at the Hay Adams Hotel with Mr. Channell, Mr. 
Conrad and Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Was there a general understanding between the four 
participants in the July 9th, 1985 meeting that the money to 
be raised by Channell would be used for humanitarian assis- 
tance? 

A I think the only supposition at that time was that 
it would be used for the support of the resistance. General- 
ly, during that period we were raising money for humanitarian 
purposes. That was the focus of everybody, not just Channell, 
involved in trying to secure funds for the resistance. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North was aware of the 
dinner in April in which weapons were being discussed? 

A Again, I don't specifically remember a conversation 
discussing it with him. 

Q Did Mr. Channell request the July 9th, 1985 meeting 
at the Hay Adams to ensure that money his organizations were 
raising was going to the correct place? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. Channell express a concern at that meeting 
that the money he raised for a particular purpose be spent on 



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A He raised the general purpose of the meeting, which 
was to assure that it was going to the benefit of the 
resistance . 

Q Okay, but was he more specific than that? 

A Not to my recollection. 

Q Did anyone at this meeting discuss the organizations 
Mr. Channell used to raise these funds? 

A I don't recall a specific conversation on that. It 
may have t^ken place, but I don't recall it. 

Q Did Mr- Channell ever seek control over the use of 
money after he transferred the money to your organizations? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever seek control over the use of money 
after you transferred the money to Lake Resources or after 
you transferred money anywhere else? 

A No. 

Q Did you form IC, Inc. so you could have a Cayman 
Islands bank account? 

A Yes. 

Q Did IC, Inc. have two Cayman Islands bank accounts, 
an interest-bearing account and a holding account? 

A Ultimately, yes. 

Q Was the main purpose of IC, Inc. to keep money out 
of the U.S. so it would not have to _be^ taxed? 

A No 



BfiWSSi 




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What was the main purpose of IC, Inc.? 
Originally, it was set up to handle 




into the United States first. It was foreign money going to i 
a foreign beneficiary, and so IC, Inc. was established for 
that purpose initially. 

Q Was it ever the purpose of IC, Inc. to keep money 
out of the U.S. so it would not have to be taxed? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Did you pay an annual fee to a company to 
oversee the management of IC, Inc.? 

A Yes . 

Q Were you the sole shareholder of IC, Inc.? 

A No. 

Q Who else was a shareholder in IC, Inc.? | 

A Francis D. Gomez and three fellow directors who are I 
the managing directors in the Cayman Islands which have a 
nominal number of shares. 

Q Did you request the management company to change ! 

! 

the name of IC, Inc. to Intel Cooperation in May of 1986? j 
A I requested them to change it to International { 
Cooperation and they got as close as they could, and under 
the agreements that you have with these people they can make 
those kinds of decisions and they thought Intel was close 



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enough. So that's why it was called Intel as opposed to 
International • 

Q Was the purpose of the name change so that you 
could amend the company's charter to more accurately reflect 
the specific purposes for which you formed the company? 

A The name was changed at the same time I amended the 
charter, and the reason for amending the charter was to make 
the company--the reason for amending the charter is that the 
Cayman Island charters are so broad, they're not specific 
enough that somebody reading them would know what a corpora- 
tion does, and I wanted people to be very clear about what 
the corporation did as its primary function and therefore I 
amended the charter. 

Q Who are the shareholders of Intel Cooperation? 

A Myself, Francis D. Gomez, and I'm sorry I can't 
remember who the other three are, but they are nominal 
shareholders who make up the directors, managing directors in 
the Cayman — . 

Q The same shareholders that were shareholders of IC, 
Inc. ? 

A Correct. It was just a name change. It did not 
change the corporate structure. 

Q Before you formed IC, Inc., did you consult Colonel 
North? 

A Yes. I^aafl 



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Q Was Colonel North ever a signatory on either of the 
two Cayman Island, bank accounts? 
A No. 

Q Did Colonel North ever directly contact your 
management company? 
A No. 

Q Did Colonel North have any role in the name change 
or charter amendments of Intel Cooperation? 
A No. 

Q Is it fair to say that Colonel North did not 
exercise any operational control over IC, Inc. or Intel 
Cooperation? 

A Operational control, no, but he did direct the 
expenditures from the accounts. 

Q Okay, but he asked you to direct the expenditures, 
is that correct? 

A He directed me to direct the expenditures . 
MR. BUCK: That's all the questions I have. 
MR. MC GOUGH: Can we take maybe a five-minute 
break? 

MR. PRECUP: Sure. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I've got to take care of something, 
then we'll come back. 

MR. PRECUP: We're off the record. 
[Brief recess . ) 



yNCLASSIFitO 



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MR. MC GOUGH: Let's go on the record. 
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: i 

Q Mr. Miller, there are a few questions that are 

follow-ups on some of the topics we talked about in the first : 

i 
period and then there are some questions that follow up on , 

some of the questions that Mr. Buck asked. There are always 

follow-ups to follow-ups to follow-ups. j 

Just so the record is clear, does any of the j 

testimony today change in any way any of the answers you gave i 

during your first deposition? | 

MR. PRECUP: Wait a minute. I have to object to 

I 
that question. It's just putting the witness at great I 

disadvantage. He testified for two hours before and the ' 

general question, do any of these answers change anything he j 

had to say before, depends upon reading the transcript. . 

MR. MC GOUGH: Has he had a chance to read the | 

transcript? I 

MR. PRECUP: He has read the transcript, indeed he 
has, but he hasn't parsed one against the other. 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: | 

Q Well, maybe the way to put it is, to your knowledge,] 

as we sit here today is there anything in that transcript i 

that's inaccurate? i 



MR. PRECUP: That's a fair question. 



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THE WITNESS: To my knowledge, no. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Q Between the time of the last deposition and this 
deposition, have you met with anyone from either the House or 
the Senate Committee--you personally met with anyone from 
either the House or the Senate Committee? 
A No. 

Q And between the times of those two depositions, 
were you told with any specificity what the questions were 
going to be today? 
A No. 

Q Mr. Miller, on or about May 6th, 1987, did you 
enter a plea of guilty to a one-count information in '.'ni i-p,j 
States District Court? 
A Yes. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark it, if we could, as a 
deposition exhibit. 

[Whereupon, the document was 
marked as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 5 for identifica- 
tion. ] 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Q Take a look, if you would, at what has been marked 
as Deposition Exhibit 5- Is that, in fact, the information 
to which you entered a plea of guilty? 

immnooinrn 



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A Yes. 

Q And at the time you entered that plea of guilty, 
did you name in open court Colonel Oliver North as a co- 
conspirator? 
A No. 

Q Did you identify any co-conspirator in court? 
A No--I'm trying to remember. 

[Witness conferring with counsel.] 
THE WITNESS: Well, that's a different question. 
MR. MC GOUGH: What is a — . 

MR. PRECUP: Would you like to go off the record? 
MR. MC GOUGH: Yes, let's go off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
MR. MC GOUGH: Let's go back on the record. 
I think there was a question and the answer to the 
question was no. Did he name Colonel North as a co-con- 
spirator, and at that point we went off the record. If there 
was an outstanding question prior to going off the record, 
I'll withdraw it. 

Let's have this marked as Exhibit 6, if we could. 
[Whereupon, the document was 
marked as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 6 for identifica- 
tion. ) 



BY MR. MC GOUGH: 



lilLMfiED 



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Q Mr. Miller, do you recognize Exhibit 6? 

A Yes. 

Q And are they your notes in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q And the date at the top, I believe, is September 
18th, 1985, is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q And were these notes written on or about September 
18th, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, the numbers 7, 8 and 9 appear to be in a 
slightly different script or pen than the numbers above it. 
To the best of your recollection, were the numbers 7, 8 and 9 
written at the same time as the numbers 1 through 6? 

A No. 

Q Were they written on the same day, if you know? 

A I don't remember exactly. 

Q Was it your practice on occasion to list numbers 
consecutively even though they did not take place in the same 
conversation? 

A Yes. 

Q Concentrating for a moment on numbers 7 and 8-- 
$415,000-Weapons, C4, M79; and number 8, $520,000, maul--to 
the best of your recollection, what was the source of those 



notes? 



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A Colonel North and I had a discussion about finding 
what Mr. Channell called big-ticket items for contributoL-p , 
and those were two of the items which we discussed. I don't 
remember a great deal of discussion on number 7. I have a 
fairly specific remembrance on number 8. 

Q Now, S<il5,000 — was that an amount given to you by 
Colonel North? 

A I believe so. 

Q And the $520,000 was also an amount given to you by 
Colonel North? 

A That, I'm sure of. 

Q And at the time you were discussing these big- 
ticket items, did you inform Colonel North that these would 
be used to solicit money from contributors? 

A Yes . 

Q There were times, where there not, when you asked 
Colonel North to draft thank you letters, and specifically 
thank you letters to Mr. Channell and his organizations? Is 
that fair to say? 

A Yes. 

Q And aunong those thank you letters were thank you 
letters written commending the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty and its efforts on behalf of the 
Nicaraguan cause, is that correct? 

A . Cause, yes. 



yilASSIFI 



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iSSlFIED 






Q At the briefings conducted at the white House in 
which Colonel North participated--those are the briefings 



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3 I sponsored by Mr- Channell--there was information distributed, 

4 j was there not, on the National Endowment for the Preservation 

5 j of Liberty? 

6 A At the white House briefings given by Colonel 

7 I North? I don't recall any. 

8 Q Were there packets of information put together that j 

9 were distributed at dinners or meetings after the briefings? j 

10 A Yes. ] 

11 Q To your knowledge, did Colonel North ever attend 

12 any of those dinners or meetings? 

13 A I know he attended one at the Hay Adams. I think 

14 he attended one at the Hay Adams. 

15 Q To your knowledge or to your recollection, did 

16 Colonel North ever see any of the material or descriptive 

17 material on the National Endowment for the Preservation of 

18 Liberty? 

19 A Probably, yes. 

20 Q There were occasions, were there not, Mr. Miller, 

21 where Colonel North assisted you and Mr. Channell in obtaining 

22 White House support for Mr. Channell's fund-raising efforts, 

23 and by that I mean either thank you letters from the President 

24 to contributors or use of White House facilities or even 
meetings between Mr. Channell's contributors and the Presi- 



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dent? Is that fair to say? 

There were times when Colonel North assisted you 
and Mr. Channell in those efforts in obtaining that support 
from the white House? 

A Could you take them one at a time? 

Q Sure. 

A I mean, you've thrown out a whole bunch of ques- 
tions . 

Q pkay, I know I've thrown out a whole bunch. Let's 
take the Presidential drop-by at the January 1986 meeting. 
To your knowledge, did Colonel North assist you and Mr. 
Channell in obtaining a Presidential drop-by for the January 
1986 briefing? 

A The answer to your question is no, specifically. 
In general terms, as I understand the way the briefing was 
arranged, it was arranged by the Office of Public Liaison, 
who I went to in order initially to set up the briefing. 

We requested that the national security briefing be 
given by Colonel North and that in whatever the flow of paper 
was at the White House that was agreed to. So we requested 
specifically when I went to see Linda Chavez that Colonel 
North would be the national security person giving the 
briefing. 

Q And in order to obtain Colonel North's support or 
his attendance at the briefing, there were — I think you said 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



there was paper flow at the White House. Is that fair to say .. 
that there were memos to be written and approvals to be givon? 

A I'm making an assumption that that's the case. 

Q Do you ever recall drafting memoranda that described' 
the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty or any ; 
of its contributors for submission to the White House? 

A I've forgotten the exact date, but in the instance ; 
of Barbara Newington, we--myself, I drafted or provided some 
material for the drafting of a memorandum which I believe • 
originated in the State Department in the Office of Public i 
Liaison to Robert McFarlan^ suggesting that Mrs. Newington be : 
given an appointment with the President. 

Q And in that memorandum do you recall whether you 
made any mention of or described the National Endowment for r 
the Preservation of Liberty? j 

A I believe I did, yes, because some of the programs | 

! 

she had contributed to were National Endowment public 
education programs. 

Q Do you recall whether in these memoranda you 
referred to the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty as a non4profit organization? 

A I don't specifically recall, but you have a copy of 
the memorandum. 

Q Other than Mrs. Newington 's case, can you recall 
drafting for the white House's consideration any memoranda 



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about the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty: 
A I don't recall drafting any memoranda. I think we 
offered potential talking points for a couple of the brief- 
ings. I don't think they were used, though. 

Q Those talking points, would they have referred 
specifically to NEPL or would they have been more generally 
on the Nicaraguan situation? 

A I think they would have been on NEPL. 



And would they have included the fact that NEPL was 



9 



a non-profit organization? 

A Again, T'm not specifically sure, but, again, you 
have copies of them. I don't recall specifically. 

Q Colonel North had direct contact with Mr. Channell 
and Mr. Conrad at times when you were not present, is that 
correct? 

A Correct. 

Q And there came a time, did there not, when Mr. 
Conrad began to bypass IBC in contacting Colonel North for 
assistance or information? 

A I believe that's true. I know it was at least 
being attempted at one point and I had a specific conversation 
with Fawn Hall about it, and my general feeling was that that 
had begun to take place, yes. 

Q You mentioned that Colonel North rebuffed two 
attempts on behalf of Mr. Channell to raise direct support 



83 



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for the Nicaraguan cause, is that right? 
A Correct. 

Q Do you recall what you told Colonel North about Mr. 
Channell and/or his organizations at the time you made those 
proposals to him? 

A Not specifically, no. 

Q Do you recall whether you told him that they were 
non-^-profit organizations? 

Again, I don't specifically recall the conversation. 
MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as Exhibit 7. 
[Whereupon, the document was 
marked as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 7 for identi t: i'-,T- 
tion. ] 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Mr. Miller, take a look at Exhibit 7, if you will. 
For the record, this is copied directly out of the 
Tower Commission Report, a page in the Tower Commission 

Have you ever seen a chart like this before? 

Yes. 

Where? 

In Colonel North's office. 

And can you put any kind of time frame on it? 

The only thing I can recall is that it was his old 



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82 



office, not the one that he was in at the time he was fired. 

Q . All right, and can you just briefly tell us how 
this came to your attention? 

A I went to see Colonel North because I had heard 
that there was going to be a public affairs effort in order 
to support the Afghan resistance and I was interested in 
finding out wp$ I went to try and get some business in that 
regard . 

i^nd I talked to him about that and his response 
was, okay, well, let me show you how a covert operation is 
set up, and he asked Bob Earl, as I recall, to get some kind 
of a piece of paper and Earl came back in with this, only it 
was on a yellow pad. 

And North put it down in front of me and said, let 
me show you how a covert operation is set up. And with that, 
as I recall, the secure line went off in his office and he 
had to take a phone call and I got to stare at this thing for 
a few minutes and then I had to leave. 

Q Now, to the best of your recollection, was the 
chart that you saw identical to or only similar to what we've 
marked as Exhibit 7? 

A Similar to. 

Q And in what respects, if you can recall, was it 
different? 

A I don't remember the number of boxes, and I 

Maim urinirirn 



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■tXER HOOflTINQ CO.. INC 

W7 C SuCTt N E 2 5 

Washui|ion. C Z0002 



specifically don't remember this clutter over on the southeas- 
tern quadrant . 

Q All right. Now, let's go from the southeastern 
quadrant to the northwestern quadrant and, in particular, 
three entries there, NEPL, ACT and IBC, under the heading 
■U.S. ■ 

Do yov recall which, if any, of those boxes was on 
the chart that you saw? 



A I think they were both on. 

Q I think I named three, NEPL, ACT and IBC. 

A I think all — . 

Q All three? 

A I think I remember all three being there. 

Q You said that the name of IC, Inc. was changed to 
Intel Cooperation, and that was done to bring it--and at the 
same time the charter was changed to be more descriptive 
about what the company was doing? 

A Correct. 

Q What was added to or modified in the charter at the 
time the name was changed? 

A I can try and do it from memory. I think you have 
a copy of the charter. It was to make the number one charter 
item the distribution of benevolent contributions to politi- 
cal, benevolent and humanitarian--I 'm not sure the word 
"humanitarian" was used--organizations . 



i%Mm sfkf^in^rit 



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HUIII DErOKTmO CO.. MC. 
J07 C Sci«l. N E 2 5 

Vuhiniion. D C 20002 
(2021 M6.6666 



mmmn 



84 



Q~ Did the charter make any; reference^ to military 

#: ' . ^ ^ " - 

organizations? _^ ^^^ ..;£^._.^_-; 

A Not that I sgpcif icallj^fecall, rro. j_^ 

Q Just as you recall, political, l^nevolent and 

educational organizationsij^as y6a"call it? 

A That probably is accurate^^but again I'm doing it 

from memory. I don' t^J5^ca^^i.t.-j^eclf icallyr^jjtalt I rernenber 
political entities was one «f the words that was tfaed. 

Q And which of those wit^^es would hav« been Lake 

Resources? .What kind of entityfewS^' LakawResources^ " 

A At the time, I^pcm^^^Si cOJHiiderea — at the time I 
did that CliaLrter -chang^^ I^^ould t|^Ei[^on&ider<&d that to have 
been an organization in support_of the resistance, ^t^t of 
the resistance. - " .^. .#• 







Q I- 

It's kind qg'an wrfair qtrestiont^TomT ' If you TOuld ^how hi» 
the charter page, i^ you have it wiAfe 7°^ — w»dflwi-'t have it 
with-us — then. <*»;^\>^fa|»JL^ ^t^jna^gg!a :3f ^jdi^rfg g-an i z a t ion , 
perhaps-, tc^one^^the 'T"''^^*'^^^^—*"'^ rST''^!' ^ 

■^ :~-~' ^R^*» 'tr^ng'^^ "do-_^a^^rom jb^»o^' is^ it Lg. legal 
lanfaa^e. ~Mr. Hillee^ no^it'l^^pr^ It is aT bit unfair to 
him, I think. 

BY KR. MC GOUGH: 




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MunNooimM CO. 


MC. 


507 C Sotti 


NE, 




25 


Vuhuiftotl. 


DC 


20002 



1 *~Q Mr. Miller, djuiyou suggest tbf language to be 

2 included in the char^Bf chanjf^ 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q And you did that, you said, I believe, to bring the 

5 charter more^^taJto-lMBt with what Intel Cooperat^n w^ being 

6 us«d. -^r, is that right? 

7 F; - A Correct . _ 
Q And one o^the things Inbe^l Cooperation T»as doing 

was .passing along sums of money to IiS^e Sea^urcesr^ is _that 

cor rect ? - -5 1 ^. =ji-..-~i;^ -^ 

A Corr^t^ -^S. ^' , "^ -r^ ~^ " 

Q And Laka RM^rces, _J think you've- dessxibed as an 

account--at that^time, yOu balieved^it- was aff «ccount somehow 

associated wi^t what you'v« called titc resistance, is that 
1^5j^corr« 

f^ ^roJ^fcBj^i.^^jgJP'J^ —7* Sb chagtttefto E^IfigT^i tTf i n 
its ambit an orgariTialiort asTOciated with the resistance? 

-A I w^pid^have con^dered the resistance a political 

-^Ri^MC GOUGffr I think that's all I have. __ 

-'M R^ JRY HMtef Z 'ft439 ^° questions at this time. As 
I indicated be fiure ~^ .j^nan , l^s^^^P^hit. this-tlaposition 
will continue at another elate ,#nd I will hjjte further 
questions at that^ime. 




88 



HIXDt NVlMIINa CO.. MC. 
i07 C Stre«i. N E 

('All M6.6664 



liNClASSIFIED 



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MR. BUCK: I have no more questions. 
[Whereupon, at 10:25, the taking of the deposition 
was concluded.] 



fc 




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mXt» HVOKTINa CO., MC 

vn C Sum. N E. 

WtihiniTon. D C 20002 



WSSiFltD 



CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 
I hereby certify as the stenographic reporter that 
the foregoing proceedings were taken stenographically by me 
and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me . I further 
certify that it is a true and accurate record to the best of 
my ability. 



/AJnu. 




Victoria A. Ranucci 



iNf:USS!F!EO 



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W7CSa<«. NE 
Wahiiifioo. DC. 20001 
1102) VM-iM« 



yMf! 



SIRE 



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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 



I, PAMELA BRIGGLE, the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my direction; that said deposition is a true record of 
the testimony given by the witness; that I am neither counsel 
for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 
action in which this de[>osition was taken; and further, that 
I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially or otherwise 
interested in the outcome of the action. 



PAMELA BRIGGLE 



Notary Public in and for *-he 
District of Columbia 



My Commission expires May 14, 1990. 



um 




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UNCLASSm 



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SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 



Thursday, August 20, 1987 

Washington, D.C. 

Deposition of RICHARD RODERICK MILLER taken on 

behalf of the Select Committees above cited, pursuant to 

notice, commencing at 9il0 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart 

Senate Office Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public 

in and for the District of Columbia, when %rere present: 

For the Senate Select Committee: 

JAMES E. KAPLAN, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 

For the House Select Committee: 

JOHN FRYMAN, Esq. 
SPENCER OLIVER, Esq. 
RICHARD J. LEON, Esq. 
For the deponent: 

EARL C. DUDLEY, JR., Esq. 
Nussbaum, Owen & Webster 
One Thomas Circle 
Washington, D. C. 20005 



■um NVORTwa CO. HC. 

107 C Simt. N E. 
Wuhiaiisa. DC. 20002 
(202)M«-«M« 



UNCLA 




93 



art90 



UNCLASSIHED 



90 



CONTENTS 




Examination by counsel for 


Paqe 


Senate Select Committee 


91 


EXHIBITS 




Exhibits 


Marked 


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122 


10 


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11 


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12 


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uutn WMmara Co.. mc. 

)0; C Snett. N E 



Wuhuirae. O C 10002 
(»>2| i*6-6t6i 



UNCUSSinED 



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mjua NooKTHo co.. mc 

MTCSnei. NE. 25 

Viriusfuo. DC. 20001 
(301) V4«4M« 



UNCUSSIHED 



91 



PROCEEDINGS 
whereupon, 

RICHARD RODERICK MILLER 
assumed the witness stand and, having previously been duly 
sworn, was further examined and further testified as follows: 
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 
SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Good morning, Mr. Miller. 
A Good morning. 

Q As you know, my name is James Kaplan, and I'm 
Associate Counsel with the Senate Select Committee. This 
deposition is a continuation of prior depositions which were 
taken pursuant to immunity orders of both the House and 
Senate Committees, which I believe are marked as Exhibit 1 — 
that is the Senate Immunity Order — and Exhibit 4 — that is the 
House Immunity Order, respectively. 

I simply remind you that you're still under oath. 
Again, Just for the record, could you state your 
full name. 

A Richard Roderick Miller. 



And your Social Security number? 

Paitially DtdmlHtd^Meaied on ^/^^ .J /^^^ 



And what is your date of ^ijjtj 
12-22-52. 



er provisions of E.0. 123S6 
b)r D. SMw, NalJoiul Security Counci! 




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iHUfii nromwta co^ hc. 

X)7CStt«t. NE 25 
Wutuiiftoa. DC 20002 
(202) VM-MM 



UNCUSSIHED 



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Q Now we've gqne over your professional background, I 
believe in tJife pribt depositions, except for a short period 
of time. Was there a time in your career in which you formed 
a public relations firm named Rand Corporation? 

A RAM. R-A-M. 

Q It's R-A-M7 

A Right. 

Q And when was that? 

A Actually, it was not a corporation, it was a sole 
proprietorship, and it was 1981. 

Q Was that at a time when you'd been furloughed from 
campaign activities on behalf of the Reagan campaign? 

A That's a good choice of words. I thought of it 
before. That's exactly what, had happened. 

MR. DUDLEY: Off the record a minute. 

MR. KAPIiAN: Sure. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 

MR. KAPLAN: On the record. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Off the record, in a short discussion with your 
counsel, was your recollection refreshed such that you recall 
that RAM Corporation, the public relations firm that you 
formed, was actually formed in 1980? 

A That's correct. "'..?. : , . 

Q And was your recollection refreshed by the fact 

HUM Accicicn 



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iMxn Moomwa eo.. hc. 

MTCScnn. N£ 25 

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(202) »t-i6U 



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93 



that you recalled that that corporation was formed at a time 
when you had been furloughed, temporarily, from campaign 
activities on behalf of the presidential campaign for Ronald 
Reagan? 

A Correct. 

Q Could you describe your educational background for 
us. 

A My bachelor's degree is in government and politics 
from the University of Maryland. My associate degree is in 
general studies from Brandywine University. I also attended 
Northeastern University, between the two of those, in Boston, 
and one year prior to that at Catawba — prior to Brandywine, 
at Catawba College in Wilmington — or Salisbury, North 
Carolina. 

Q You've testified, previously, that IBC, or Interna- 
tional Business Communications became a partnership in 1986, 
between Miller Communications and Gomez International. Is 
that correct? 

A Correct , 

Q Was there a written partnership agreement? 

A No. There was not. 

Q Was there a joint venture with any entity at that 



time? 



In July of 1986 there was a joint -venture agreement 



signed between International Business Communications and 

UNTI ACCICICn 



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mxtK taroumta co . mc. 
507 CStreti NE 25 

TutuniToii. D C 20002 
(202) !46.666« 



wmma 



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David C. Fischer and Associates. 

Q Has there ever been a written partnership agreement 
between Miller Conununications and Gomez International? 

A No. 

Q How does the distribution of partnership proceeds 
work, as between Miller Communications and Gomez Internation- 
al? 

A It is a 50/50 net split. 

Q What is the joint-venture arrangement between IBC 
and David C. Fischer and Associates? 

A It was to be a 50/50 gross split on clients that we 
both worked on. Shared clients. 

Q Prior to July 1986, what was the structure of 
International Business Communications? 

A Prior to July of '86? 

Q Right. 

A Well, in January of 1985 — I'm sorry — January of 
1986, we began operating as a partnership. We didn't form — 
we formed the corporations in January, I believe. 

Q Okay. 

A So we were operating in '86 as a partnership. 

Q As a partnership. Let's take the period, then, 
prior to January 1986. What was the structure of IBC? 

A It was a sole proprietorship. 

Q And were you the sole proprietor? 



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Wuhiii(ion. D C 20002 
(202) ^*i-6666 



uNcussra 



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A Correct. 

Q what was your relationship with Frank Gomez prior to 
the formation of the partnership in January of '86? 

A On a legal, on a legal basis, Frank was a sub- 
contractor. In reality, we were working towards what was the 
ultimate structure, which was a partnership. 

Q And had Mr. Gomez been a subcontractor of IBC since 
some time in 1984? 

A Again, he was on it for legal and tax purposes, was 
listed as a subcontractor, but again, we were working towards 
a partnership arrangement. And in fact in '85 actually had a 
split of profits, in 1985. 

Q Okay. Prior to the joint-venture arrangement that 
was executed as between IBC and David C. Fischer and As- 
sociates in July 1986, what was the relationship between IBC 
and David Fischer, if any? 

A David Fischer was a subcontractor at the end of 
1985 through the beginning of 1986. 

Q Could you explain, for the record, what you mean 
when you categorize someone as a subcontractor of IBC. 

A A subcontractor, as I understand it, is somebody 
who's not an employee, and is not a participant in the firm 
in the way of ownership. 

Q Were these people--that is, Mr. Gomez and Mr. 
Fischer--acting on some sort of a consulting arrangement with 



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MXei HCTOKTMa CO . wc. 
)07 C imn. N E 25 

Wuhistion. D C 20002 
(202) VW-«6M 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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IBC7 

A Well, again, in regards to Frank Gomez in 1985, 
Frank was, for all intents and purposes?, a partner7 and: we 
accomplished the change in the structure in January of '86. 
As to Fischer and Marty Artiano, they were both consultants 
to IBC. Senior consultants. 

Q I'd like to turn your attention to IC, Inc. for a 
while. When was IC, Inc. formed? 

A April 1985. 

Q And was IC, Inc. formed at Colonel North's request? 

A Yes. 

Q It was. And without going into all of the ac- 
tivities involving the fake Saudi prince, who we'll get into 
in much more detail later, c^n you tell us how that request 
came about. 

A I was approached on the telephone by a gentleman by 
the name of Kevin Kattke, who told me that he had been 
referred by Colonel North, and that he had a very wealthy 
client who wanted to make a contribution to the Nicaraguan 
resistance, and asked if I would meet him. 

I called Colonel North and told him of the phone 
call, and he told me that he had sent the phone call to me, 
and that I should go ahead and meet with him, which I did, 
and this person held himself out to be a member of the royal 
Saudi family. 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



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HLm modrma co.. mc. 
)07 C Siren. NE 25 

Wiiiuiiron. D C 20002 
(202) M6'6«6< 



UNCLASSIFIED 



97 



And he offered $14 million in aid, which was a 
rough match of what the President had asked Congress for, to 
the Nicaraguan resistance, and signed, in a subsequent 
meeting, a promise letter for proceeds from this oil transac- 
tion. And I discussed it with Colonel North, and I told him 
that I thought it would be ridiculous to bring 14 or $15 
million into the United States, have the IRS promptly attach 
7.5 million of it, and then have Adolf o Calero wondering 
where the other 7.5 was. And since it was money coming from 
Saudi Arabia and going to Calero, there was no reason for it 
to come into the United States. And I suggested that the 
transaction be handled offshore, and he agreed, and I--either 
before or after — I'm not now sure of that conversation-- 
discussed it with some friends who did foreign banking, and 
the best location seemed to be the Cayman Islands. 

Q Who discussed that with friends? 

A I did. 

Q That was you? 

A I did. 

Q All right. Now just a moment ago, you said that it 
was at Colonel North's request that you opened this Cayman 
Islands account, yet, in your testimony, you suggested that 
you had called Colonel North to tell him that you had come to 
a conclusion that it would be better to establish this 
offshore accounts, and I'm just trying to — 



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mujoi NVOirnNo co.. mc. 
M7 C Sirm. N E 25 

Widuaitoa. D C 20CO: 
(20:) i*t-tti6 



uHCUiSsro 



98 



A Actually, that conversation was not on the tele- 
phone, it was in a meeting, and — 

Q But nonetheless, what I'm trying to clarify for the 
record is whose idea was it to form an offshore account to 
take these funds that the Saudi prince was intending to give 
to the contrast 

A Well, I can't tell you exactly whose idea it was 
that it be an offshore account. I can tell you that my 
purpose in meeting with North was to seek his permission to 
do it in the fashion that I've just described it to you. 

Q Did you watch Colonel North's public testimony :- 
before the Committees? 

A I have no idea what — I haven't watched his tes- 
timony, or John Poindexter's.. 

Q Are you aware that Colonel North testified that the 
offshore account was established at his request? 
A No . I'm not . 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Would it be inaccurate to say that the offshore 
account was established at Colonel North's request? 

A I don't think so. I think that's consistent with 
what I've just said. I mean, I was an agent working on his 
behalf. I went to ask his permission to handle it the way it 



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)07CStren. NE 25 

WuhinfToo. O C 20002 
(202) VM-MM 



UNClASSra 



99 



was being handled, and the individual was sent to me at his 
direction, so-- 

Q How did you reach the conclusion that you were an 
agent working on his behalf? 

A I'm not sure I really even understand the question. 

Q Well, you mentioned in your previous answer, that 

you considered yourself, with respect to the dealings with 
the Saudi prince, to be an agent working on behalf of Colonel 
North. 

A Well, if you're attributing something to the word 
"agent", then maybe I'll just choose another term. I was 
working on his behalf. 

Q Okay. And how did you arrive at the conclusion 
that you were working on behalf of Colonel North? 

A Well, he had sent the individual to me. I had been 
involved in other activities with Colonel North, and it was 
obvious that I was being asked to handle this matter. 

Q And was it obvious to you that you were being asked 
to handle this matter on his behalf? 

A Yes. 

Q what did he say to you, that led you to that 
belief? Or what circumstances gave rise to that belief? If 
you recall. 

A First and foremost was having the individual sent 
to me to begin with, since there were other avenues available 

iruni icoinrh 



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>07CSn.«. NE. 25 

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r202) i*6.U6t 



UNCLASSIHED 



100 



to him. 

Q What other activities had you conducted on behalf 
of Colonel North, prior to the referral of the Saudi prince? 

A We'd had meetings about policy in Central America. 
We'd had meetings about the Nicaraguan resistance. I had 
been in a couple of meetings with he and Adolf o Calero, and I 
had done things such as getting the resistance leaders to 
Washington for their meeting with the President. That type 
of thing. 

Q And these are activities that you considered to be 
conducting on his behalf? 

A Yes. 

Q Who were the incorporators of IC, Inc.? 

A Well, the two principal shareholders — and I'll 
profess a slight amount of ignorance about the CayMu^n 
structure--but the two principal shareholders are Francis D. 
Gomez and Richard R. Miller. There are three nominal 
shareholders for the purpose of — there's another legal term-- 
but they are in effect the voting members of the board of 
directors, and they have control over the corporate structure 
and the bank accounts . 

Q How was Mr. Gomez chosen to be one of the principal 
shareholders? 

A You have to have two, and I trusted Frank, implicit- 
ly- 



iiNi!iA!!!;inrn 



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lULLiK KtKmrma CO.. mc. 
)07CScrm. NE 25 

Wuhinctoo. DC 20002 
(2021 S46-6«M 



UNCLASSIRED 



101 



Q You chose Mr. Gomez? 

A That's right. 

MR. KAPLAN; I'll ask the reporter to mark as 
Exhibit 8 a typewritten page of information relating to how 
to open accounts and how to incorporate a company in the 
Cayman Islands. 

[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 8. ] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Now Mr. Miller, this document, Exhibit 8, was one 
of the documents that were produced to us by your counsel, 
pursuant to a subpoena issued by the Committee, and I'm going 
to ask you, do you recognize, this document? 

A Yes. 

Q And what do you recognize it as? 

A It's the elements of a telephone conversation that 
Frank Gomez had with somebody at the Barclays Bank. 

Q Okay. Did you instruct Mr. Gomez to call the 
Barclays Bank to obtain this information? 

A I don't recall whether I instructed him, or he took 
it on his own to do, but I had selected the Barclays Bank 
after the conversations with other people. 

Q Do you recall which people you had conversations 
with in decidincLto choose the Barclays Bank? 



CL to choose the Barclays 

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■LLU RtPOKTINO CO , MC 
50;CScren. NE 25 

Wuhuifion. D C JOOO! 
1202) M^66M 



UNCUSHD 



102 



A Well, I remember the conversation with the in- 
dividual that led me to choose the Barclays Bank. Other 
people had recommended other locations, but I'd a conversation 
with Rodney Cunningham who was, at the time, the publisher of 
the Rome Daily American , and the owner of two TV and radio 
stations in Rome. And so he did a lot of banking overseas 
and he had recommended Barclays Bank because it was an 
English bank, and that was the reason it was chosen. 
Q Why did you seek Mr. Cunningham's advice? 
A Because I was aware of the fact that he did banking 
outside the United States. I didn't know that many people 
who did, and he was a good source of information. 
Q How did you know Mr. Cunningham? 
A I knew Mr. Cunningham from the campaign. 
Q What was his position in the campaign? 
A He was chairman of Citizens Abroad for Reagan, and 
communications director of Republicans Abroad. 

Q I think you've referred to him before as a political 
friend of yours? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you seek any legal advice in setting up, or 
establishing the corporation in the Cayman Islands? 

A Well, the principal vehicle for setting up the 
corporation was a law firm. 

Q You testified earlier that one of the reasons why 

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you chose the Cayman Islands, or decided to set up an 
offshore account was so that the money, the $14 million, 
wouldn't come into the United States and be taxed at half. 
How did you know that the tax laws would apply to money 
coming into the United States under this arrangement? 

A I would say it's probably, at best, practiced — 
amateur legal advice. I mean, I made the assumption that the 
Internal Revenue Service would move, immediately, to attach 
some portion of that money. I may have been incorrect, but I 
made that assumption. 

I also, for just logical reasons, don't see any 
reason to bring Saudi money into the Unit ed States in order to 

to somebody ^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^H It 
doesn't make any sense. 

Q Was it your understanding that if the money was 
transferred from Saudi Arabia to the Cayman Islands, and then 
to the contras, that the money would avoid taxation? I'll 
leave it at that. 

MR. DUDLEY: I have a problem with the word "avoid" 
in the question, Mr. Kaplan, because it seems to me that--if 
you'll amend the question to say "would not be subject to 
taxation. " 

MR. KAPLAN: Sure. I'll take that amendment. 

THE WITNESS: That's precisely the reason for doing 
it in the Cayman Islands 



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BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q And how did you arrive at that understanding? 

A I'm not sure I understand. 

Q Did you consult a lawyer to reach that conclusion? 

A After I went to the Cayman Islands, I consulted 
with an attorney in Washington who told me that if it was set 
up the way the Cayman people were saying it was, that it 
wouldn't be my responsibility to report it on a tax form. 

Q Okay. Do you recall who the lawyer was that you 
spoke to? 

A His name is Richard Snowden. Dean Snowden, on New 
Hampshire Avenue. It was free legal advice, and he did it as 
a friend, and I'm sure he probably rues the day he did it. 

Q Okay. I appreciate that. What was the function of 
IC, Inc. before September 1985? Did it do anything? 

A No. 

Q Here bank accounts established in the name of IC, 
Inc . 7 

A There was bank accounts established. I'm sure 
there was one by that time. I don't know whether--I'm sure 
there was only one at that time. 

Q And were the accounts established at the Barclays 



Bank? 



vHmsim 



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mufisro 



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1 Q Okay. So that the information that's contained in 

2 Exhibit 8 is information that was followed? 

3 A Yes . 

4 Q Okay . 

5 A It was recommended by the bank, and that's exactly 

6 what transpired. 

7 Q Did there come a time when you changed the name, 

8 and the charter of IC, Inc.? 

9 A Yes . 

10 Q Do you recall when that was? 

11 A Well, it was 1986, but I don't recall the exact 

12 date. I believe it was around April. 

13 Q What was the purpose in the name change? 

14 A Well, IC, Inc. had only been chosen out of less than 

15 inspirational thought at my conference table when this this 

16 supposed Saudi prince was sitting there, and was asking for 

17 the name of an organization. One had not been formed yet, 

18 and I simply expected that there would not be an IC, Inc., 

19 and if there were an IC, Inc., that we'd be able to use a 

20 combination of names, sufficient enough to allow us to use an 

21 "a/k/a IC, Inc. . " 

22 So the corporation charter request was for IC, 

23 Inc., and it turns out there was no IC, Inc., so that was 

24 successful. But as we began to do more work for Colonel 

iMLiiii wrofmta co^ mc 

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felt that the organization's name and its charter should 
reflect what it was doing more accurately, and so I changed 
both of them. 

Q Okay. And when you say that you wanted to change 
the name and the charter to reflect more accurate what IC, 
Inc. was doing, how did you think that a neune change was 
going to reflect more accurately what IC, Inc. was doing? 

A Well, both — the name, just IC, Inc., would have no 
significance to anybody, and the charter was the general 
Cayman Islands' charter, which is nothing but a litany of all 
business practices known to man, and it's a business charter. 

And so what I did was, I changed the charter, 
amended the charter, which seemed to be unusual for Cayhaven's 
practices and for Cayman practices, to talk about it in terms 
of distributing to political and benevolent organizations, 
proceeds from like organizations. 

And I chose the name "International Cooperation" 
because it is, I thought a little closer to what type of work 
it was doing, and the only problem is that with the structure 
the way it is in the Cayman Islands with these nominal 
directors, they can make decisions, and there was an Interna- 
tional Corporation that the Cayman Island people thought that 
that "International Cooperation"" was too close. 

And so our nominal directors arbitrarily decided 
that Intel was close enough. And so Intel Cooperation became 



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the name because Intel is a European convention for "interna- 
tional." It doesn't mean that here, but it is an interna- 
tional convention. 



I.e.? 



Did IC, Inc. stand for anything? The initials, 

A No. 

Q Was there any purpose as to how they were chosen? 

A No. 

Q Did you choose the name International Cooperation? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you consult with anyone in choosing that name? 

A I think I informed Colonel North that I was doing 



it. 



Q Well, what did Colonel North say when you informed 
him that you were changing the name of IC, Inc.? 

A Well, I don't recall exactly what he said then, but 
I recall what he said when he saw Intel Cooperation. 

Q what was that? 

A He said, "What the hell did you call it that for? 
It sounds like intelligence." And I said well — and then I 
recounted to him exactly the story that I'm recounting to you. 

Q Did North show some concern that the new name might 
reflect "intelligence?" 

A Well, I think I just recounted the entire exchange 
to you, so — 



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Q Okay. Was North aware of the charter amendment 
before it was made? 

A I don't recall whether I told him about it before I 
made it. 

Q Did he become aware of the charter amendment at 
some point after it was made? 

A I don't know whether I told him. I don't remember 
telling him. It's possible I told him and have forgotten, 
but I don't remember whether I told him about the charter 
change. 

Q Was it your understanding at the time that the 
charter was changed, that disbursements being made from IC, 
Inc. were all being made to — and I'll use your words-- 
political and benevolent organizations? 
A Yes . 

Q And you didn't have any other understanding to the 
contrary? 

A I would only say that I had some impression that 
X^ke Resources was an entity for their behalf, but never any 
understanding of who they were, or what precisely it was they 
were . 

Q An entity for whose behalf? 

A For the resistance, for the Nicaraguan resistance. 
Q And did you know what the funds at that time — what 
funds that were going to Calero were being used for? 



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A Well, for Calero, general support, humanitarian — 
food, medicine, salaries, that type of activity. 

Q And that was your understanding at the time? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you believe that Lake Resources was a 
political or benevolent organization in April 1986? 

A Well, again, I thought it was some entity that was 
used for the benefit of the resistance, so when I use the 
word "political", I mean, were political. The Federal 
Government is political. It's a political entity. It's an 
organization. The resistance is an organization. It has 
many different elements to it. 

Q Was the name change, or charter amendment of IC, 
Inc. in any way intended to .provide more secrecy to the 
funneling of funds that was going on? 

A No. Actually, I think it was the direct opposite. 
My purpose, again, was to amend the charter to more accurately 
reflect the business that the entity was doing, that IC, Inc 
was doing. It didn't change, one way or the other, the 
secrecy associated with that. In fact, ultimately, what I 
wanted to have happen was to have funds go directly to Intel 
rather than coming through IBC. 

Q But you had understood that the formation of IC, 
Inc., and thfe existence of this contra-funding network was 



part of a covert operation, had you not? 



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A Well, I want to answer your question in two parts. 
We formed IC, Inc. to handle a specific transaction which did 
not happen, but it was formed specifically to handle that 
transaction. In a subsequent period of time, when we started 
to raise money from private sources, it became the appropriate 
vehicle, again, to transfer money to these political entities 

Q You testified at one of the earlier sessions of 
your deposition, that some time in 1985, in I believe Colonel 
North's office, he sat down with you and Robert Earl, drew 
out a little chart which has probably since become famous, and 
in drawing out that chart with little boxes, and filling in 
NEPL and IBC, and IC, Inc., and whatnot, he said something to 
you to the effect of, "This is the way a real covert operation 
should work. * 

THE WITNESS: Wait a minute. You have 200 percent 
overstated. 

MR. DUDLEY: You're really inaccurate there. 

THE WITNESS: Let me tell you exactly what happened 

MR. KAPLAN: Well, why don't we get it accurate, 
and while you're telling me what's accurate, I'm going to 
pull out the earlier testimony. 

THE WITNESS: Okay. I went to see Colonel North 
and had a conversation with him--I believe it was about 
^^^^^^^^H-but there was some word in the diplomatic 
community that there was going to be some kind of a public- 



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relations effort for one of the other resistance movements, 
and I think it wa 

And I went to hlin to talk about it, to find out who 
I'd get in touch with because we wanted some IBC work in the 
area. And-- 

MR. LEON: ; Do you have a time-frame for this, Rich? 

THE WITNESS: All I remember is it was his old 
office. That's the only thing I can recall. It was his old 
office. So it was some time before he moved into his new 
office. And I told him what I wanted to do and he said, 
"Okay. Let me show you how a covert operation is set up.' 

And he called Bob Earl into the room and told him 
to bring some piece of paper. And when it came in, it was on 
a yellow pad like a lined legal pad, but It didn't have all 
the boxes that the one in the Tower Commission report has. 

It wasn't quite that complicated. And he said, 
"Let me show you how a covert operation is set up." I'm not 
sure whether Earl was still In the room at that point, but I 
was on the couch, and he set It down on the coffee table. 

He no sooner got those words out of his mouth than 
his secure telephone went off. He had to take a phone call on 
the secure line. It proceeded for a few minutes, and then he 
said "You'll have to leave," and I left, and I have never had 
the chart fully explained to me. 

But I remember seeing ACT, and I remember seeing 



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NEPL, and I remember seeing IC, Inc. I don't think I ever 
noticed INSI. I think I probably would have remembered that. 
But I remember it was not as complicated as the one 
I've seen in the Tower Commission report. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q And when you say the one you've seen in the Tower 
Commission report, just for the record, that chart was marked 
as Exhibit 7 at your deposition session on July 3rd. 

Was IBC on the chart that Colonel North drew out? 

A I believe IBC was on the chart, to tell you the 
truth. 

Q All right. And in terms of setting a date as to 
when that chart was drawn, does it refresh your recollection 
as to timing, that IC, Inc. appeared on that chart? 

A Well, it's a good point. I would assxune that it was 
some time after April 1985. 

Q Okay. 

MR. DUDLEY: I have a problem with the way that 
you're using the phrase "drawn out." I mean, I think the 
problem Rich is having with it is, I don't want the implica- 
tion to be made that the chart was drawn in his presence, or 
that he had anything to do with the drawing of the chart, and 
by answering questions, that you used the phrase "drawn out." 
I don't think you're intending to make that conclusion, right? 
THE WITNESS: No. I was shown the piece of paper 



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that already had drawing on it, and, ultimately, left without 
having it fully explained to me. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Nonetheless, was it your understanding that the 
NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. conduit relationship was a secret 
relationship, or a part of some kind of a secret operation? 

A Well, I don't agree with your characterization of 
"secret", but let me tell you why. 

Q Why don't you explain. 

A And I think I understand what your question is, 
now. Two of the things that we — the first and foremost thing, 
in terms of NEPL, and the resistance, was that we wanted some 
insulation between the two of them. We didn't want to have 
the resistance bugging Spitz Channell for money, and we 
didn't want Spitz Channell conversant with the way the money 
was ultimately distributed. 

And when I say "we", I say myself and Colonel North 
as well. And that was just good practice not to have that 
happen. Spitz had participated once before in an event that 
benefited the Nicaraguan exile community, and had subsequently 
been — had unsolicited requests for money. 

Secondly, we were both aware that there was a great 
deal of interest in our activities by the Nicaraguans and the 
Cubans, and we took precautions all the tJ.me, not to be in 



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open- telephone conversations, not to have organizations be 
readily available for public view. So that was quite 
certainly part of why we set things up the way we set them up. 

Q Weren't you also concerned about exposure of your 
activities in the American press? 

A Of course. 

Q And weren't you concerned about the exposure of 
your activities to the Congress? 

A No. 

Q Not at all? 

A I wasn't. I should say that. 

Q To your knowledge, was Colonel North concerned about 
the exposure of his involvement with your activities to the 
Congress? 

A I wouldn't want to characterize what he was feeling 
at the time. The point I'd make to you is that every transac- 
tion we undertook was done either through bank draft by a 
meaber of the Federal Deposit System, the Federal Reserve 
System. It was done by Federal 




from the 
proper authorities, we never — I never thought I was hiding 
anything. 



les , we never: — a. nevet tni 

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Q The name change in 1986, were you concerned, or was 
there any concern expressed^by anybotly, that by changing the 
name and amending the charter in 1986, that would give rise 
to more exposure to the activities- of IC, Inc.? 
A No. 

Q Okay. But your testimony here today is that the 
charter was not eunended and the n£une was not changed for the 
purpose of providing either in whole, or in part, greater 
secrecy to the operation? 

A I don't think it increased it or decreased it, 
either way. 

Q I'm asking for what the purpose was, either in 
whole or in part. 

A Well, ultimately, 4fhat we — 

MR. DUDLEY: Is your question still limited? Was 
the purpose in whole or in part to provide additional 
secrecy? Is that what you're asking? 
MR. KAPLAN: That's correct. 

MR. DUDLEY: Okay. Why don't you answer that 
question. 

THE WITNESS: I don't recall it being one of the 
purposes for why. I recall, most certainly, the primary 
purpose, which was to have it reflect more clearly what the 
organization was doing. . - - ■ '. ' 

MR. KAPLAN: All right. l' understand that. 



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BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Was one of the purposes either, in your mind, or to 
your knowledge, in someone else's mind, to provide greater 
secrecy to the operation? 

A Sitting here now, I don't recall greater secrecy 
being one of the reasons why I changed the charter. If I 
might answer your question even more directly, the charter 
change was more explicit about the type of function of the 
organization than was the original charter. So, actually, I 
think it has the opposite effect. 

I think the charter change had the opposite effect. 

Q It's your testimony here today, then, that that 
charter change, that is, describing the IC, Inc. activities 
as involving grants to political and benevolent organizations, 
even given the knowledge that you now know, and that you now 
have, was more accurate in April or May of 1986 to describe 
the functions of that organization? 

A Sure. More accurate than the previous charter. 
Absolutely. 

Q And given what you know today, is it your testimony 
that a charter change to describe IC, Inc.'s activities as 
being (1) to provide grants to political and benevolent 
organizations, was more accurate in light of the funding that 
was being made to Lake Resources, and Calero's accounts? 



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A Yes. 

MR. DUDLEY: I'm going to object to the form and 
tone of these questions, and point out to you that one of the 
problems with it is "more accurate than what?" The prior 
charter contained no reference to those activities, so any 
reference would technically be more accurate. 

Are you suggesting there is an inaccuracy, and if 
you want to suggest that, why don't you ask him, directly? 

MR. KAPLAN: Well, I'd like an answer to my previous 
question. 

[The pending question was read by the reporter.] 

MR. DUDLEY: I don't think the question is answer- 
able in that form. More accurate than what? 

MR. KAPLAN: More accurate than the previous 
charter. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, I think it was more accurate 
than the previous charter. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q In light of what you know today, is it your 
testimony that the charter amendment is an accurate descrip- 
tion of the activities that were being conducted through IC, 
Inc. at that time? 

A Yes. You've also used my memory of the charter 
change as the sole parameters of the charter change. If you 
have it here, I suggest you look at it, and it's slightly 



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broader than that. 

Q Your memory of the charter change is fine with me. 
It's what you testified to under oath here today. So your 
testimony is, as you sit here today--your understanding is 
that it is accurate to say that the activities of IC, Inc. 
were to provide funding to political and benevolent organiza- 
tions? 

MR. DUDLEY: Again, Mr. Kaplan, I don't know how 
many times you want to ask the question. You're obviously 
not getting the answer you want. 

I don't know how many times he's got to sit here 
and answer it, but — 

MR. KAPLAN: I haven't gotten an answer to that 
question, counsel, and I'm gping to pursue it until I get an 
answer to that question. 

MR. DUDLEY: I'm going to finish my statement on 
the record. 

MR. KAPLAN: I've rephrased the question as you've 
requested that I rephrase it. Now that it's been rephrased, 
I'd like an answer to it. That's not difficult. 

MR. DUDLEY: I would like to point out that the one 
item that you have landed on is only one of several purposes 
listed in the charter, and if your question is--as it can 
only be--was that one of the activities that was being 
carried out, because it is one of the activities that is 



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described, then I'll be happy to have him answer. 

MR. KAPLAN: That wasn't my question. Again, I 
rephrased the question as you requested. 

MR. DUDLEY: No, you didn't. Not that question. 

MR. KAPLAN: Which is, is his testimony today that 
the charter amendment is an accurate reflection of the 
activities that IC, Inc. was conducting at the time, in light 
of his knowledge today. It's not a hard question. 

MR. DUDLEY: That was not — 

MR. KAPLAN: It's not a difficult question to 
understand, and I would like an answer to it, please, Mr. 
Miller. 

THE WITNESS: What was the question, again? 

MR. DUDLEY; I want to get it straight because it 
is a confusing and loaded question. 

MR. KAPLAN: In light of your knowledge today, is 
it your testimony that the activities that were being 
conducted by IC, Inc. were accurately reflected by that 
charter amendment that was made back in April or May of 1986? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q And was funding, in light of the knowledge that you 
have today, to Lake Resources, and to Calero, considered by 
you to be funding to political or benevolent organizations? 



A Yes. 



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Q And do you have any understanding today, as to 
whether Lake Resources, or Mr. Calero, or persons administer- 
ing the money coining from those accounts , used those funds for 
anything other than political and benevolent purposes? 

A You've misread the charter change. It says it is 
to give money to political and benevolent organizations. 

Q And is it your understanding that Lake Resources is 
a political or benevolent organization? 

A Well, my understanding today is — 

Q That's what I'm asking for. 

A — predicated on the hearings, and I'm quite aware 
that Mr. Hakim and Mr. Secord operated an organization for 
the benefit of the Nicaraguan resistance, and I accept their 
characterization. 

Q And I mean, are you testifying that it's your 
understanding, in light of the knowledge that you have today, 
that Lake Resources is a political or benevolent organization? 
MR. DUDLEY: That's not what he said. 
THE WITNESS: I'll repeat exactly what I said, and 
that is, it is my understanding, based on the testimony which 
I was able to watch, that Mr. Hakim and Mr. Secord, and their 
associates, operated an organization for the benefit of the 
Nicaraguan resistance. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q And I'm asking you, and I've asked it eight times. 



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and I have yet to get an answer — okay — 

MR. DUDLEY: Why don't you tell him what you mean 
by a "political and benevolent organization." 

MR. KAPLAN: It is Mr. Miller's charter amendment 
to which he testified. earlier, and I assume he has an 
understanding of it. Now if he's going to answer the 
question in the affirmative, then I'm going to ask him what 
he means by "political or benevolent organization. " 

MR. DUDLEY: Well, I consider — 

MR. KAPLAN: Do you understand Lake Resources to be 
a political or benevolent organization? 

THE WITNESS: Now, no. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Okay. And do you .understand that the activities, 
then, that IC, Inc. was conducting, in funding Lake Resources- 
-and I'm limiting it to that — was an activity of providing 
grants to a political or benevolent organization? 
A No. 

Q Okay. That was easy. I think we could have done 
that about 15 minutes ago. 

MR. DUDLEY: I don't think we need gratuitous 
comments. Why don't you ask questions, Mr. Kaplan. 

MR. KAPLAN: Thank you, counsel. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Is it your testimony here today, that one of the 



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purposes of the name change, or a charter amendment to IC, 
Inc., was not in whole, or in part, by you, or to your 
knowledge, by anyone else, an effort to better cover the 
activities of IC, Inc.? 

MR. DUDLEY: That's about the twelfth time it's 
been asked. Answer it once again, and this is the last time 
he's going to answer it. 

THE WITNESS: I don't recall that being one of the 
purposes for changing the name. 

MR. KAPLAN: Okay. Thank you. 

I ask the reporter to mark as Exhibit 9 a handwrit- 
ten document, that also was produced by your counsel in 
response to the Committee's subpoenas, and ask you if you can 
identify that document. 

[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No . 9 . ] 
THE WITNESS: Yes. It was a draft for a Telex to 
go to David Piesing who was the administrator for our account 
at Cayhaven Corporate Services in the Grand Cayman Islands. 
MR. KAPLAN: Okay. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Is that your handwriting? 
Yes. 



Did you prepare this draft yourself? 

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A Yes. 

Q Was it reviewed by anyone, do you recall? 

A No. 

Q And I take it that this draft confirms that you 
intended to rename the corporation International Cooperation, 
Inc., if you'll look on page two of the draft, toward the 
middle of the page? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay. Was Mr. Gomez consulted? 

A I'm sure I informed him of this. 

Q Would he have had any input into the draft? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Do you recall whether Colonel North was consulted 
before the draft was put int.o Telex form? 

A No. 

Q And would he have had any input into the preparation 
of the draft? 

A No. This never happened, by the way. 

MR. DUDLEY: By that you mean the draft wasn't sent? 
THE WITNESS: No, the draft was sent but the 
actions described here did not happen. 
MR. KAPLAN: Okay. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I think it would be useful to clarify the record, 
if you could explain a little further what you mean when you 



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say that what's described in that draft, that is. Exhibit 9, 
never happened. 

A The counsel on the other end of this Telex, the 
Walker & Company--! 'm sorry, this did happen. This is a 
subsequent Telex to our initial — there's another Telex which 
asks that we change the corporate structure of IC, Inc. 
significantly, and place on it, in it, corporate officers, 
and they refused to do that, and this was a compromise to 
their position. 

So that what happened was, we ended up with IC, 
Inc. and a charter change, and we ended up also with world 
Affairs Council. 

Q Do you recall when you informed Colonel North of 
that name change of Intel Cooperation, Inc.? 

A I'm pretty certain it was after the fact. 

Q And I take it, then, that would be the same with 
respect to the charter amendment? 

A I believe, also, that was after the fact. 

Q Do you recall telling Colonel North about the 
charter amendment, or the substance of the charter amendment? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of a conversa- 
tion. I do remember the exchange I told you about earlier, 
about the name change, but I don't recall having — I don't 
have any specific recollection of a conversation about the 



charter change. 



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■f 
Q Okay. Let's move of^this. When did you meet 

Colonel North, initially? 

A Well, actually, your previous depositions refresh 
my memory. Some time in 1984, and I've seen a September date 
in his appointment book, so some time in the fall, I would 
guess. 

Q Do you recall the context in which you first met 
Colonel North? 

A No, but I have a very faint recollection that it 
had more to do with ^^^^^^^^H than anything else. 

Q And why do you believe it had to do with] 



A It was at a period of time when our work for the 
State Department was centered primarily on ^^^^^^^^Hand 
the problems that ^^^^^^^H^ was facing. 

Q Do you recall who referred you to Colonel North, or 
who introduced you to hin? 

A I don't have a specific recollection. 

Q Do you have any recollection? 

A I have an assumption, and the assumption would be 
that it would have been Jonathan Miller or Ambassador Reich, 
one of the people at the State Department. 

Q why do you assume that it would have been either 
Jonathan Miller or Reich? On what do you base that assump- 
tion? I'm not trying to — 




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A they would have been the only people of enough 
stature to have had contact with him, that would have drawn 
us into contact with him. 

Q Do you recall any of the substance of that first, 
or those initial meetings about ^HH^^^^^ 

A No; no. In fact the only two things I can recall 
are a luncheon in our offices with Ambassador Reich, Jonathan 
Miller, Oliver North, Frank Gomez and myself, and instances 
where we went to Colonel North's office to assist with the 
Washington visit of the Nicaraguan resistance leaders. Those 
are the only two that I have clear recollections from that 
period of time. 

Q Do you recall your first dealings with Colonel 
North that related to Nicara.guan, specifically? 

A I don't specifically recall, no. I wouldn't know 
which one to say was the first. I mean, I don't have a 
specific recollection. 

Q When would your first Nicaraguan-related contacts 
with Colonel North have occurred? Approximately. 

A Probably the winter of 1984-85. 

Q And you testified earlier, I believe, that you had 
done some work in coordinating or setting up a Nicaraguan 
Refugee Fund dinner. Did you have dealings with Colonel 
North in connection with your work setting up that dinner? 

A We did not have a role setting up the dinner. We 



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were observers at the dinner, on behalf of Adolfo Calero and 
the Nicaraguan Development Council. 

Q Did your role as observers start prior to the 
dinner? I realize the dinner was postponed a couple of times. 

A Yes. In fact I attended a meeting--! believe it 
was in January--at the offices of Miner & Fraser, which was 
supposed to be an organization meeting of all the different 
groups participating, and one of the people there was Spitz 
Channell . 

And we reported our impression to the State 
Department and to Colonel North. 

Q Any other dealings with North in connection with 
that dinner? 

A I don't right this minute recall any others. I 
mean, I saw him at the dinner. He was aware of the general 
arrangements, but I don't have anything specific in memory 
about it. 

Q Do you recall any other dealings with Channell in 
connection with your observation role for that dinner? 

A No. I approached him at the meeting and introduced 
myself and gave him my card, and he sort of took it very 
lightly, and I got the feeling, when I left the room, I'd 
never hear from him again. 

Q Well, was North commonly referred to around IBC by 



a code name? 



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ONCUSSIFIED 



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A Not--well, yes. 

Q And what was that name? 

A When we had telephone conversations, or when we 
were conunitting something to writing, we simply wrote the 
word "Green. " 

Q When was the name coined? 

A Some time in the summer, late summer or fall of 
1985. 

Q And do you recall who coined it? 

A Actually, Frank Gomez coined it. 

Q And why was the name Green used to refer to North? 

A It was originally Frank's concern for holding open 
telephone conversations, which the Channell people were — as 
most civilians are — were won.t to do, and rather than using 
North's name over an open telephone line, Frank suggested 
that they use the name "Mr. Green Jeans" and that referred to 
his fatigues, and they shortened it to Green, and it became a 
convention to use Green. 

Q Have you ever seen North in fatigues? 

A No. 

Q Had Gomez ever seen North in fatigues? 

A No. 

Q Did he have any reason why he would choose a name 
that referred to North's fatigues? 

A Well, he's a 20-year Foreign Service officer, and 



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he tells me that that's done, and that when you choose a name 
such as that, you do it for something that will commit it to 
memory, something that's akin to the individual. 

Q You said just a moment ago that Channell and his 
associates would use North's name over phone lines as 
civilians were wont to do, and I take it you considered 
yourself and your IBC associates as civilians as well? 

A Sure. 




A I've had four security clearances, and in one 
instance a "Q" clearance which I don't think they use 
anymore. 




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Q The security clearances that you've had previously, 
were they in connection with positions you held within 
Government? 

A That's correct. 

Q And those were the positions at the State Department 
and AID that you testified about previously? 

A And at the General Services Administration. 

Q Have you ever held a security clearance outside of 
the Government? 

A We had a security .clearance as a contractor on our 
last State Department contract. 

Q And do you recall at what level that clearance was? 

A I believe it was Secret. 

Q Who asked that that clearance be provided? 

A The State Department. 

Q And any particular individual at the State Depart- 
ment? 

A Well, I always was under the impression, prior to 
reading the report from the State Department, that Jonathan 
Miller was the individual that asked for it. 

Q 



Has that clearance now expired? 

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A For all intents and purposes, yes. 

Q And has the contract pursuant to which you were 
cleared expired? 

A Yes. 

Q And when did that expiration occur? 

A September 30 of 1986. 

Q When did you meet — 

A May I add something? 

Q Sure . 

A Frank Gomez was in the Foreign Service for 20 
years, and has had his assistant blown up in the room right 
next to him. So that anybody that serves in foreign posts 
like that has a great sensitivity to the problem of open 
telephone lines, and anybody that's conversant with Washington 
knows that open telephone lines here are monitored by the 
Soviet complex in Cuba. There's no mystery about that. 

So I'm sure when each of you took your oath and got 
your security clearances, you were briefed by security 
officers about that kind of activity. So, if we're dealing 
in sensitive matters, it's only intelligent for us to do it 
in a way that secured us enough, that it makes it difficult 
for the Soviets to keep track of it. 

And I suspect they'd be interested in any kind of 
assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance, political or 



otherwise. 



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Q At IBC, do you and Frank Gomez maintain separate 
offices? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that because of your knowledge of the history of 
what's happened to some of his assistants in the past? 

MR. DUDLEY: Let the record show that everybody 
laughed. 

MR. KAPLANS Let the record show that I very much 
appreciate the laughter. 

MR. LEON: I thought that was a strategic question, 



John. 



BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Did North ever tell you anything aboutl 




A Yes, and can we go off the record for a minute. 

MR. KAPLAN: Sure. 

[Discussion off the record.] 

MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 

MR. KAPIiANs In an of f-the-record discussion which 
just occurred among counsel and Mr. Miller, in the absence of 
the reporter who is not cleared, we all arrived at a consensus 
conclusion, that certain information that Mr. Miller may have 
to convey to the Committees might well be of a classified 
nature. 



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If the Committees decide to pursue the line of 
questioning, which would give rise to testimony relating to 
that information, we will do it at a later date and ap- 
propriate time, mutually agreed upon, in which the Committees 
will have secured a cleared reporter for the taking of that 
deposition, or that testimony, and that testimony will be 
handled pursuant to the normal security procedures of 
classified information that's been employed by the Committees 
since their inception. 

Does anyone have anything to add or subtract from 
that statement? 

[No response. ] 

MR. KAPLAN: All right. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q When did you first meet John Roberts? 

A In the month of August 1980. 

Q And do you recall the context in which you met him? 

A Yeah. John was in charge of the editorial responses 
for the Reagan-Bush campaign, and I was in charge of the 
radio news service. 

Q What was the substance of your relationship at that 
time? 

A Friends and co-workers . 

Q Okay. And did you continue as friends with John 
Roberts subsequent to the campaign? 

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A Yes. 

Q How would you describe the friendship? 
A We were very good friends. We had very similar 
political beliefs, and enjoyed a good friendship. 

Q Did you have further professional dealings with Mr 
Roberts after the campaign? That is, the 1980 campaign. 

Q I had some contact with him when he was in the 
political office. At the time I was in AID, and subsequent to 
my leaving AID, I kept in contact with the political office, 
and he was stationed in the political office. 

Q What do you mean, when you refer to the "political 
office?" 

A There is an office of the Assistant to the President 
for Political Affairs in the. Of f ice of the President. 

Q Okay. So his office was in the White House? 

A That ' s correct . 

Q Do you recall what Mr. Roberts' position was in 
early 1985? 

A At some point in mid-1985 he had the title of 
Deputy, I believe. If not, he was an assistant to the 
director. 

Q All right. And again, to clarify the record, 
assistant to the director of what? 

A Well, director of the Political Office, who also 
carries the title of Assistant to the President for Political 

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affairs. 

Q Okay. When did you first meet Spitz Channell? 

A I met Spitz at that meeting I recalled in January, 
and then the next time I met Spitz Channell was in April of 
1985. And I got a call from John Roberts who told me that he 
had had two fellows come see him who wanted to help the 
President on the Nicaraguan aid vote, and would I like to see 
them and I said sure, I considered it a professional referral. 
And I met with Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad, along with Frank 
Gomez, who provided them stacks of information which they 
used to produce some series of television commercials. 

And shortly thereafter, they retained IBC for 
consulting. 

Q When was it that you received the call from Roberts 
alerting you to the fact that Channell and Conrad would be 
calling on you? 

A I don't recall the date, specifically, but it was in 
April of '85. 

Q And did you meet with Conrad and Channell some time 
shortly thereafter? 

A I think it was this same day or — 

Q That same day? 

A Or within a very short period of time. If it 
wasn't the same day, it was the next day. 

Q So they probably called you the same day that 



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Roberts called you to alert you to the phone call — 

A Actually, I think they were still with Roberts when 
Roberts called. 

Q Okay. The Conunittees have been told that Roberts 
referred to IBC as something like the "White House outside of 
the White House," or a front for the White House on Nicaragua. 

A They're two very different things. I mean — 

Q Were a front for the State Department on Nicaragua. 
Can you respond to those characterizations? 

A I don't think I want to. I mean, I never made 
them. I don't accept the characterization. 

Q Are you aware of any reasons why Roberts would have 
characterized IBC, if in fact he did, as the "White House 
outside of the White House" with respect to Nicaragua? 

A I have no idea why he ' d do that . 

Q Okay. And the same question with respect to the 
phrase a "front for the White House with respect to Nica- 
ragua?" 

A Well, I think it's an affront of a characterization. 
I don't agree with it. 

Q But are you aware of any reasons why Roberts would 
have characterized IBC that way? 

A No. The only thing I would say is, I think we were 
generally recognized in Washington at the time as experts on 
Central American policy for the Administration, and this town 



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is a very small tovm. People generally knew that we were 
working with the Nicaraguan resistance also. So I don't 
think that there's anything mysterious about that. I would 
think somebody who was politically active, Democrat or 
Republican, would have known of our interest and our expertise 
in the area. We had been working with the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation. We had been working with State Department. 
We had been working with the resistance. 

Q And that might explain, also, the phrase "front for 
the State Department", or, "as good as the State Department" 
with respect to Nicaragua. 

A In the hope of not going around in an exchange 
again, I really don't want to characterize it — you know — it's 
his phrase. If he said it, I don't consider ourselves a 
front for anybody. 

Q Okay. What was your initial business relationship 
with Channell and Conrad? 

A Our initial business relationship started in May, 
and Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad, Frank Gomez and myself, had a 
dinner at which we were offered a retainer of $15,000 a month 
which we accepted, and our relationship was initially with 
the American Conservative Trust. 

Q what was the nature of the work that you were going 
to perform for the American Conservative Trust? 

A As I recall, initially, our responsibility was to 

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educate Mr. Channell and his employees on the finer details 
of U.S. foreign policy in Central American, and the activities 
of the Nicaraguan government, and other democratic governments 
in Nicaragua--or in Central America, rather. And to provide 
informational materials to them which could be turned into 
public-education efforts on their part. 

Q And did you understand what the purpose of this 
education process was to be, in so far as American Conserva- 
tive Trust was concerned? 

A Yes. They intended to produce campaign materials 
to influence Congress, and American public opinion on the 
issue of Nicaragua, in support of the President's position. 

Q When you say "campaign materials", are you referring 
to political campaign materials? 

A Yes . ACT was a federal PAC . 

Q And you said the fees were $15,000 a month. How 
long did this fee arrangement hold? 

A Not very long. Inside of probably — well, let me 
see. By September, we were involved in other projects, 
particularly those for the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty, which were huge undertakings, and 
our fees rose in proportion to those undertakings . 

Q When did the National Endowment for the Preserva- 
tion of Liberty, which we can refer to by the acronym NEPL, 
become the principal Channell entity with which IBC dealt? 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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A I'd say in July of 1985. 

Q Of 19857 

A Yes . • 

Q Was there a written agreement between IBC and the 
American Conservative Trust evidencing this fee arrangement? 

A The initial fee arrangement, no. Subsequently, we 
had budgets for proposed programs, and I think it was August, 
I attempted to put it down on paper as for the understandings 
between Channell and I, but I'm not sure it was captured 
there, either. It was a very fluid arrangement. 

Q How are the fees determined? 

A They were budgeted by me, dep>ending on the work I 
thought was required at IBC to accomplish what Channell was 
asking be accomplished. 

Q We're now talking about the fees beyond the $15,000 
initial retainer? 

A Even the $15,000. 

Q Okay. In doing your budgeting, was there a time 
basis for your fee allocation? 

A You mean time and billing? 

Q Yes. 

A No. 

Q Okay . 

A We only one time, we gave to Dan Conrad a time- 
and-billing analysis for a single month, which indicated 



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their fees would have been $72,000 based on our hourly fees. 

Q What were your hourly fees at that time? 

A Partners were--I don't know. I think the chart I 
gave them was $125 an hour for partners, senior staff was 75, 
and I think junior staff was forty. You can see how many 
hours you're talking about at that kind of level. I mean, it 
doesn't take a lot of mathematics to see it was a ridiculous 
workload. 

Q Is it fair to say that the basis for your fees, 
then, was on a transactional basis? Work done? 

A Precisely, and I would budget it, I would tell 
Channell what I thought it would cost to do it, and then we 
would perform it for that cost. 

Q Did you provide re.gular invoices to American 
Conservative Trust or to NEPL? 

A Not until 1986 did we really start that as a 
practice, and that was at Dan Conrad's requirement. 

Q All right. At the time — 

A There were some. I think there was one in '85, but 
most of them were in 1986. 

Q Did NEPL usually pay for work performed, or did 
they pay in advance for certain projects? 

A They had to pay in advance for certain projects 
because they were so large that we couldn't afford to--the 
outlays to start them, without mjiASy-Jrom NEPL. 



x tnem, wxtnout 




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Q In addition to the fees, did NEPL also reimburse 
expenses, or did the fees include an allocation for expenses? 

A In the program area, it required them to pay 
expenses. For the general retainer, it did not require 
expenses. But for program items, we did require expenses. 

Q At the time that you first met Channel!, did he know 
North? 

A No. I should amend that. I think there was some 
kind of a briefing that was associated with the Nicaraguan 
Refugee Dinner, that I think maybe North gave the briefing. 
You know, his slide show to that group. But I'm not positive 
about that. 

Q How did Channell eventually meet North, if — I mean, 
beyond that group briefing? . 

A At a briefing that I set up. 

Q And you're referring, now, to the June 27 briefing? 

A I believe that was the first one, yes. 

MR. KAPLAN: This is a good time for a break. 
[Brief recess. ] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Mr. Miller, you testified earlier about a dinner in 
early April of 1985 attended by yourself, Mr. Gomez, 
Mr. Channell, Mr. Conrad, and Mr. John Ramsey from Wichita 
Falls, Texas. Do you recall who arranged that dinner? 



Mr. Channell. 



NCIASSIFIED 



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Q Did Channell tell you anything about Mr. Ramsey 
prior to the dinner? 

A That he was one of his big contributors, that — the 
other thing I remember specifically is that John doesn't 
believe in refugees. He feels that everybody should stand 
and fight for their own country. So those are the two things 
I remember as him saying. 

Q Did Channell tell you anything more about Mr. 
Raunsey in terms of his personality or demeanor? 

A Just that he was a patriotic individual. 

Q Did he describe Ramsey to you as a tough cookie or 
something to that effect? 

A I don't remember that specifically, but it was 
clear that he was — with the refugee business, it was clear 
that he was a pretty tough cookie. 

Q Did you know that the discussion of — that took 
place after dinner was taped? 

A I may have known it at the time. I had forgotten 
entirely about it until I was shown a transcript of it in 
May. But after I was shown a transcript, I recalled that we 
had seen a transcript of it and sent it to Mr. Conrad and 
told him we didn't think it was proper for it to exist or for 
it to have been done. So I get from that some sense that 
maybe we were surprised that it had been done . 

Q So is it your testimony that at the time of the 

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dinner itself you weren't aware that that conversation was 
being recorded? 

A I honestly can't give you a definitive answer on 
whether I was aware at the time that it was being recorded. 
But I was subsequently aware that it had been recorded. 

Q Do you recall the dinner? 

A I recall it--I recalled it in general terms, and 
now after reading the transcript, I recall it specifically. 

Q And do you recall whether there was a tape recorder 
on the table during the dinner? 

A Again, I don't have a specific recollection of 
knowing at the time that it was being recorded. 

Q You testified a moment ago that you had an oppor- 
tunity to review the transcript at some point in time prior 
to having reviewed the transcript in connection with your 
testimony before these committees. Do you recall having 
reviewed the transcript in 1985 some time, for instance? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you describe briefly the circumstances of your 
having reviewed that transcript? 

A I have a very small recollection, and that was that 
Frank first reviewed it for spelling and proper — Frank 
Gomez — reviewed it for spelling and proper use of names and so 
forth that had been transcribed by somebody who didn't know 
what a Sandinista was or so forth. And then as I recall. 



mp\ AP<'»ni:n 



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when it got to me, I raised a question about why it had — why- 
it even existed and why it had been done. And then it was 
sent back to Dan Conrad. Or maybe we — no, it must have been 
sent back to Dan. 

Q With whom did you raise a question about the 
propriety of the recording? 

A Frank and I together — a conversation between the 
two of us. 

Q Did you ever express your concerns about the 
recording to either Channell or Conrad? 

A I'm sure we did. 

Q Do you recall what their response was? 

A An unschooled reaction to our concern — that they 
didn't see what the problem yas. 

Q Did you send the transcript back to Channell or 
Conrad with some marks on it? 

A I don't recall doing that, but I subsequently saw 
transcript that had Frank's corrections on it — of names and 
spellings and so forth. 

Q And that refreshed your recollection that you in 
fact probably did send back a transcript with some correc- 
tions — additions or deletions — on it. 

A Right. Actually, I don't think there were any 
deletions. I think it was all corrections. 

MR. KAPLAN: Okay. I'm going to ask the reporter 

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to mark as Exhibit 10 a composite exhibit which is comprised 
of a letter that we received from your counsel, Nussbaum, 
Owen & Webster signed by Ron Precup dated June 16, 1987 which 
encloses the transcript of that conversation as — strike 
that--what it encloses is a list indicating to the best of the 
indicator's recollection who spoke which paragraphs indicated 
in the transcript of the conversation that occurred at that 
dinner. 

[The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
10.] 
MR. MILLER: I don't want to be argumentative, but 
what I did was at your request I took the transcript, and as 
best I could I tried to identify the person. I will express 
to you the same sense of tentativeness about that now that I 
did before. I did the best I could to make a determination of 
the speaker. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q That was going to be my first question. Is the 
list that was put together and attached to Mr. Precup 's 
letter — is that all from your recollection? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you — or to your knowledge, without disclosing 
any privileged communications, anyone else--review the 

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transcript in order to create this list? 

A No. 

Q If we can just run through the list that's attached 
to the letter. The top left-hand column of the first page 
says "page", and then underneath that the number 35311 — does 
that refer to pagination that is on the attached transcript 
itself? 

A Yes. 

Q Is the pagination that it refers to listed on the 
bottom right-hand corner of that transcript itself? 

A Yes. 

Q And then the subsequent pages just relate to pages 
of the transcript — also the bottom right-hand corner numbers. 

A Yes. 

Q I ask that because there's also a date-stamp number 
in the top right-hand corner, and I wanted to make sure that 
the two didn't get confused. 

A Okay . 

Q Now, on the right-hand column — going back to the 
list provided by your counsel — it says "speaker" and then it 
has initials underneath in that column. Who does "RM" refer 
to? 

A Myself. 

Q Who does "JR" refer to? 

A John Ramsey. 



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Q Who does "FG" refer to? 

A Frank Gomez . 

Q Who does "CRC" refer to? 

A Channell. 

Q If you'll turn to page four of the list provided by 
your counsel, you'll see about five up from the bottom in 
that "speaker" column the initials "DC. 

A That's Dan Conrad. 

Q And then if you'll turn to page seven of that list 
provided by your counsel. In the same column--the "speaker" 
column--you'll see the initials "RRM". Who does that refer 
to? 

A Me. 

Q So I take it then you referred to both with the 
initials "RM" at the beginning of the list provided, and it 
looks as if it's uniformly "RRM" toward the end of the list. 

A Correct . 

Q Did there come a time in April of 1985 when you 
assisted Mr. Channell in obtaining a letter from Mr. Calero 
which authorized the Channell organizations to fundraise on 
behalf of FDN? 

A Yes. 

MR. KAPLAN: I would ask the reporter to mark as 
Exhibit 11 the document which purports to be a letter from 
Mr. Calero to Mr. Channell dated April 10, 1985. 



lEMOi Acciorn 



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jlbl48 



UNCLASSiflED 



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_ I [The document referred to was 

2 marked for identification as 

3 Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 

4 11.] 

5 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

6 Q I ask you if you have seen that letter before. 

7 A Yes . 

8 Q Is this the letter? This letter was produced by 

9 your counsel in response to the committees' subpoenas. Is 

10 this the letter that you assisted Mr. Channell in obtaining 

11 from Mr. Calero? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Do recall what the nature of your assistance was in 

14 obtaining this letter? 

15 A I spoke to Mr. Calero about it and asked him to 

16 provide a letter. Initially a copy of the letter was given 

17 to me by Mr. Matamoros, and it was not adequate. And so I 

18 asked for another letter, and Mr. Matamoros or Mr. Calero — 

19 I'v« forgotten which— asked me for some copy items which I'd 

20 like to have included in it, and I provided them to them. 

21 And the letter was reproduced and sent to me. 

22 Q Do you recall what was inadequate in the first 

23 draft that was produced by Mr. Matamoros? 

24 A The first draft was a very short contract for 

■tun Mvofrmoco^ mc 

j«7csa«t.Ni 25 professional services as opposed to an appeal for help. And 



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that was inappropriate for Mr. Channell's understanding or my 
understanding. And 1 think it even offered a percentage, if 
I recall correctly. And it was clear from the content of the 
letter that it had been misunderstood. So we asked for 
something a little more direct and more consistent with what 
Mr. Channell wanted to do. 

Q Did Channell request you to seek this letter for 
him? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it your understanding that Channell wanted a 
letter like this to use in fundraising activities? 

A Yes. 

Q Was there any understanding, to your knowledge, as 
to the fees or compensation that Mr. Channell would derive 
from fundraising on behalf of the FDN? 

A Yes. That's precisely the reason why the letter 
was redone. He was not looking for any compensation from the 
FDN for fundraising purposes. All he wanted was a letter 
asking him to help. And that's basically what this is. It's 
written a little more flowery than just please help. But 
that's exactly what he wanted — an appeal letter from Mr. 
Calero to him at his organization. 

Q Was it your understanding at the time that Channell 
didn't intend to make any money off of fundraising for the 
contras? 



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UHCLASSIHEO 



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A That's correct. 

Q What was understanding as to why Channel 1 wanted to 
engage in fundraising for the contras? 

A He was politically committed to supporting the 
president. He was politically and personally conunitted to 
seeking to help the democratic resistance in Nicaragua. 

Q On what do you base that understanding? Or on what 
did you base that understanding at the time? 

A On my conversations and the direction his program 
had taken. 

Q Was it your understanding that Channell and his 
organizations would deduct expenses incurred from monies that 
were contributed for the contras? 

A I can't tell you exactly when I became aware of 
that. Initially no, other than normal operating overhead. 
But some time in late '85 — maybe late summer, early fall of 
1985 he told me that they would be deducting — I believe it 
was 20 percent — from the donations for assistance. 

Q Did you have a response to that? 

A I think I informed Colonel North about it. And I 
may have even taken it upon myself to say that's fine 
initially. Because anything was greater than zero. 

Q Did North approve of Channell taking this 20 
percent, as you recall? 

A I don't think I sought his approval. I just simply 

IgMnLLUQlOED 



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told him that Channell was retaining 20 percent within his 
organization of the contributions. 

Q Are you clear about the 20 percent figure? 

A Yes. 

Q At least that's the figure you recall Channell 
having told you they were going to be taking from the 
contributions. 

A Correct. 

Q When did that conversation take place, as best as 
you can recall? 

A The only mental trigger I have is a contribution by 
Barbara Newington, which I think was in the amount of 
$400,000. So whenever the first one of those was. I think 
it was December. But the initial Ramsey contribution went 
directly to the Nicaraguan Development Council. The second 
Ramsey contribution went directly toj 



Q What was the motivation, if you know, for beginning 
to direct contributions into NEPL, as opposed to Channell 
soliciting contributions from individuals and having them 
directed directly to contra organizations? 

A I have to answer it in different parts. From the 
perspective of Colonel North and myself, the first and 
foremost concern was an insulation between the donor and the 
recipient. 



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From Channell's perspective, the insulation was 
important because he didn't want to receive a deluge of 
unsolicited requests for funds. And also from Channell's 
perspective, he did not want his donors in a position of 
being in direct contact with the Nicaraguan resistance 
because again they would be then deluged by a series of 
requests. That seems standard operation in fundraising. 

Q And he preferred that they be deluged with a series 
of requests from him as opposed to some other organization? 

A Well, without accepting the characterization, as I 
understand it from my observations of Mr. Channel 1 and his 
fundraising activities, people who give those sums of money 
only like to do it for very specific programs or very 
specific items. And if you ±)egin to go to them all the time 
with little nickel-and-dime needs, they quickly turn to 
someone else. They like direct, coherently presented 
objectives which they can fund. 

That's part of the reason for that insulation and I 
suspect part of the reason for Mr. Channell's success. 

Q Do you believe that between April or May of 1985 
and the conversation you had with Channell in which he told 
you he was going to begin to take 20 percent from donations 
that Channel in fact was passing along all the money that he 
was receiving as contributions for the cause of the contras? 

A Either passing it along or using it for public 

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education efforts, yes, since some of the people gave to both 
things . 

Q This is not intended to sound quite as facetious as 
I think it's going to sound. Did you think that Channell and 
Conrad were conducting all the activities which they were 
conducting raising funds for the contras under the NEPL 
umbrella out of the goodness of their heart for six or seven 
months? 

A I thought their first priority was assisting the 
Nicaraguan resistance and that assistance took for them — 
because we had conversations about it — it took for them two 
forms. The first was direct assistance. And the second was 
the programs maintained by their organization which was 
designed to increase public support for the resistance and, in 
the case of their political organizations, political support 
for the resistance here on Capitol Hill. 

So I felt always that their objectives were to help 
the resistance. And I think — in full candor, I think they 
spent their money that way. 

Q But you don't have any basis for that. 

A I have not seen anything to indicate otherwise. 

Q To your knowledge, was one of the reasons for 
inserting NEPL between the donor and the ultimate recipient 
to provide the donor with a tax deduction for the contribu- 



tion? 



IMASSIFIFfi 



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A In terms of the public education effort, that was 
quite certainly the reason for it. Can we go off the record 
for one second? 

MR. KAPLAN: Could the reporter please read the last 
question? 

MR. MILLER: I think you're recording over the top 
of another answer, aren't you? No? I'm sorry. 

So in terms of the political efforts and the public 
education efforts, it was quite certainly one of the reasons 
it was done . 

In terms of resistance assistance, I'm not fully sure 
what Mr. Channell's motivation was. But I did not consider 
it at the time as one of the reasons for doing it. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Is there a reason why NEPL was inserted between the 
donors and the ultimate recipients in addition to IBC and IC, 
Inc., to your knowledge? 

A Well, as I previously stated, Mr. Channell wanted 
that insulation for his donors . His donors wanted the 
insulation, and he was the one doing the fundraising, so it 
was appropriate to agree to that . 

Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Channell or--maybe 
more appropriately — did Mr. Channell ever discuss with you 
that one of the reasons why to insert NEPL into the network 
was because it would be more enticing to potential con- 

ME h^mm 



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tributors or prospective donors to be able to offer a tax 
deduction to them? 

A Actually, the opposite is true. Mr. Channell told 
me one tiine--and it stuck in my memory quite explicitly--that 
people who gave these very large sums of money were uninter- 
ested in the tax ramifications of it, that they did it for 
reasons of personal conviction. He used to call them 
warriors, and they — his statement to me was that tax- 
deductible status has nothing to do with the way these people 
make their decisions. And I derived from that the notion 
that it was unimportant to these people. 

Q Did you believe him? 

A Oh, I think it's borne itself out to be true. I 
think all these people gave because of their personal, 
convictions and patriotism and not because of tax-deductible 
status . 

Q Would you feel otherwise if you were told that most 
all of these people who gave to NEPL during the relevant time 
period indeed took tax deductions for their contributions? 

A No, in that you're saying all the people who gave 
to NEPL. And the point is I don't think anybody has ever 
challenged the tax-deductible nature of the public education 
effort. I don't think the Internal Revenue Service has 
challenged it. So the public education effort, which was 
actually larger than the assistance effort, was well within 



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the confines of the regulations governing NEPL. 

So when you say "all", no, I don't. I wouldn't be 
taken aback by that at all. 

Q What if you were told that several of the persons 
who gave money for direct contra assistance, according to 
your prior testimony and according to testimony of others 
heard by the conunittees, took tax deductions for those 
contributions ? 

MR. DUDLEY: Is the question would that change his 
view as to whether they really cared about tax deductions? 

MR. KAPLAN: I don't see what that's got to do with 

it. 

MR. MILLER: Well, may I answer the question, 
because you characterized it- incorrectly. He said "care". 
What Channell said to me was their primary motivation was not 
the tax deductibility. It was having a personal commitment 
to a philosophical position or to something that they had a 
personal — I've forgotten the word I used — but anyway, that's 
different than whether they ultimately availed themselves of 
the tax-deductible status. 

I think if they thought they could, they'd be fools 
not to. And they're all very wealthy people, and they didn't 
get wealthy being foolish. So I think probably they probably 
decided to take a tax deduction if they thought one was 
warranted . 



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MR. KAPLAN: I won't accept your characterization. 
I know that there are some of mine that you probably won't 
accept. 

On May 6th of this year, did you plead guilty to an 
information charging you with one count of defrauding the 
United States under 18 United States Code Section 371? 

MR. DUDLEY: As his lawyer, I will object to that 
characterization. It was not a count of defrauding the 
United States government. It was a count of conspiracy to 
defraud. 

MR. KAPLAN: That's correct. And that is what 18 
United States Code Section 371 provides. And I apologize for 
the mis-statement. 

MR. MILLER: That's correct. 

MR. KAPLAN: And was it your understanding in that 
plea of guilty that the use of NEPL's tax exempt status was 
wrong or was unlawful in connection with the direct contra 
assistance effort? 

MR. MILLER; As I understand it — 

MR. DUDLEY: Let me finish the question, and then 
let me talk before you start answering. 

Have you finished the question? 

MR. KAPLAN: Yes. 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to the point of the question 
on the grounds I think that you're asking him for some rather 

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tricky legal conclusions here. And I have a problem with the 
breadth of it, because it may well be that not all the 
contributions for direct assistance would have been in any 
way, shape, or form wrong. And I don't want him to answer a 
question that's in a very sensitive area like that without 
perhaps some minor distinctions being observed. 

MR. KAPLAN: I accept that, and I withdraw the 
question. 

I'm not trying to lead you into a trouble area. 
You just gave some testimony, some of which was maybe even a 
bit non-responsive about the view of the use of NEPL's tax 
exempt status with respect to the fundraising efforts for 
direct contra assistance and certain direct contra assistance, 
which we'll get into a little later today. 

And my concern is that as I listened to that testimony, 
it didn't strike me as being entirely consistent with the 
plea of guilty to the information to which we've just 
referred. And I wouldn't want to have the reflect an 
inconsistency with what's a matter of public record, because 
we are, after all, committees who are creating a record that 
we want to have consistent with what's known to the public 
and part of a judicial record filed in Federal District Court 
in Washington, D.C. 

If that inconsistency that I perceive can either be 
cleared for our record, then I'd like that clarification. 



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MR. MILLER: Well, I can't attempt to — 

MR. DUDLEY: Let's go off the record a minute. 
Q Is it your understanding, Mr. Miller, that NEPL's 
tax exempt status was never misused in the solicitation of 
contributions for direct contra assistance? 

A No, that is not true. It is my understanding that 
it was misused. 

Q And briefly, could you explain in what respects you 
believe that NEPL's tax exempt status was misused in that 
connection? 

MR. DUDLEY: I have a problem with this line of 
inquiry, and I guess I may as well put the problem on the 
record because I don't understand what relevance his under- 
standing as a layman of the -legal issue with respect to the 
misuse of NEPL's tax exempt status. I don't understand the 
relevance of that to any line of inquiry that the Committee 
has. 

He can tell you about what in fact was done and 
what he knew at the time it was done. It seems to me those 
are perfectly relevant inquiries. His understanding of the 
legal concepts as we sit here doesn't seem to me to be 
relevant and quite frankly may entrench upon areas that I am 
not sure he is competent to testify to. 

MR. KAPLAN: I didn't intend to entrench on any 
areas in which he was competent to testify, and I am certainly 

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not asking Mr. Miller to draw any legal conclusions. I 
simply was seeking a response to the question following on 
the prior answer of Mr. Miller's as to in what respects he 
believed the tax exempt status of NEPL was ever misused or 
was misused in connection with direct contra assistance fund- 
raising efforts. 

That certainly is an area that is within the focus 
of both the Committee's mandates. And to the extent that it 
is going to impinge on any attorney/client communications, I 
have no interest in the answer. I am asking for his under- 
standing. It really is a follow-up to an answer that he gave 
to a previous question. 

Let's go off the record for a minute. 

MR. LEON; Off the- record. 

(Off the record.) 

MR. KAPLAN t I am going to ask for an answer to my 
pending question. 

MR. DUDLEY: I am not quite sure what is on the 
racord and what isn't, but I will want my objection noted 
that it calls for legal conclusions that he is not competent 
to make. 

THE WITNESS: As I understand it, Mr. Channell 
offered to contributors the capacity to deduct the contribu- 
tion for assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance, which he 
knew not to be deductible, and I was a participant in that 

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conspiracy. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q And did you have contemporaneous knowledge at the 
time that these deductions were offered that Mr. Channell was 
offering deductions that were not appropriate at the time? 

A Not that I can specifically point to. 
[Witness and attorney consult.] 

A If I can amend my previous answer — 

Q Sure . 

A — instead of the word "assistance", I think it 
should be "for the purchase of arms". 

Q And do you recall when you came to the understanding 
that this use or misuse — this use of NEPL's tax exempt 
status was indeed a misuse of that tax-exempt status? 

A I can't. It was a growing understanding, culminat- 
ing May 6, 1987. 

Q Okay . 

Did there come a time when NEPL began to give money 
to IBC or to IC, Inc. that was intended to be provided for 
assistance to the contras? 

A Yes. 

Q When did that occur? 

A It began receiving contributions from Mr. Channell 
in, I believe, July of 1985. 

Q And did those contributions come from Mr. Channell 



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as the result of the conversation that took place at a dinner 
on July 9? 

A I don't think that is the right date, but it was in 
July that there was a dinner -- there was a meeting, not a 
dinner, in the Hay Adams where Colonel North directed Mr. 
Channel 1 to send the contributions to IBC. 

Q You have testified previously as to the date of 
that meeting, I believe. We can amend that testimony to 
insert a different date, if that will be useful. 

Do you recall a date other than July 9th? 
A I don't recall July 9. 
Q Okay . 

A I don't recall another date specific. 
Q Okay. 

A The independent counsel is using, I believe, the 
15th, is it? 

MR. DUDLEY: I think July 9th. 
THE WITNESS: Oh, July 9th; okay. 
MR. DUDLEY: I think his problem wasn't so much 
with the date as with the characterization of it as a dinner. 
MR. KAPLAN: Okay. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Well, at this meeting were Channell, Conrad, North 
and yourself in attendance? 



Yes. 



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Q And at the meeting to which you testified on June 
23rd here with us. Is that correct? 
A Yes. 

Q Do you recall with any better specificity the date 
of the first payment from NEPL to IBC that was related to 
direct contra assistance? 

A I don't recall specifically what — 
Some time in July of 19857 
It seems to me that it was in July of 1985. 
Do you recall the amount on that contribution? 
As I sit here, no, but I am sure it is in my 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 
records . 

Q Okay . 

Did you continue to receive payments for direct 
contra assistance from NEPL through November of 1986? 
A Yes. 
Q Okay . 

And when I say did you continue to receive, I am 
referring to either IBC or IC, Inc. 
A Yes. 

MR. DUDLEY: What was the date and the question? 
I'm sorry. 

MR. KAPLAN: November 19th. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: How did you segregate the payments 
from NEPL that were intended for direct contra assistance 



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from those payments from NEPL which you attributed to fees 
owed for services performed by IBC? 

A You have the cart before the horse. 

Q Yes. 

A Since our primary responsibilities were for 
managing the public education and lobbying efforts, it was 
easy therefore to take those things that were in addition to 
those required charges, and they were easily identified. If 
you look at them the way you have, then you would be confused. 
But if we are in day-to-day operation and we are receiving 
fees for television documentaries, for retainer fees and for 
things of that nature, then when we get an additional amount, 
it is either announced to us or is something which is in 
great excess of anything we need, it is clear that it is 
assistance money. 

[Witness and attorney consult.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Based on your conference with counsel, do you wish 
to add anything to your previous answer? 

A No. 

Q Okay. 

Do you recall the approximate amount of NEPL 
payments to IBC, that is total payments, from July 19 85 to 
November 1986? 

A It's in excess of $5 million. 

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Q Okay. 

And do you recall what the total amount was that 
was designated for direct contra assistance? 

A I have recently finished the computations on it, 
and it is 53.44 million. 

Q Okay. 

And when you say you recently finished computations, 
what records have you used in order to do your computations? 

A The same ones you have, the invoices and receipts, 
bank records . 

Q Okay . 

Who determined the timing and amount of payments 
from NEPL to IBC for contra assistance? 

A Mr. Channell. 

Q Now the difference between the $5 million total 
payments you received from NEPL between July 1985 and 
November 1986 and the payments that your computations show 
were used for direct contra assistance is about $1.56 million 
or maybe a little more, I take it just from your testimony 
this morning. 

Was that remaining eimount considered to be payment 
by NEPL to IBC for fees for services and any disbursements 
expended in the performance of those services? 

A Yes. 

Q What services exactly gave rise to the, let's call 



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it to round it out, $1.6 million of fees during that 15 or 
16 -month period? 

MR. DUDLEY: Fees and expenses. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Fees and expenses. 

A I mean, you have asked for an encyclopedia. In the 
general category, media relations, lobbying activities, 
legislative analysis, administration policy analysis, program 
items such as writing of text, creation of documents, and 
research into policy and implications of legislation on 
policy. 

We operated a speakers ' bureau . We produced 
several films, television documentaries. We maintained film 
crews in the border region 
and in some cases they went into Nicaragua. We maintained 
film crews in Nicaragua and Managua. 

We produced text for ads. We produced news release 
materials, statements. We produced graphics. We produced 
slides. We produced brochures. We produced books. We 
produced briefing books. We set up meetings between NEPL 
people. Administration officials. Congressional officials, 
media people, state and local officials, industry officials, 
private citizens' groups. 

We provided the Washington coordination for the UNO 
leadership's Washington activities in 1986. We provided 



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long-term strategic planning documents. We provided scenario 
analyses of activities by the resistance forces. We provided 
liaison with the resistance forces and NEPL officials. We 
provided briefings for NEPL contributors. We provided -- I 
don't know how long you want the list to get. That's as much 
as I can remember right now. 

We handled — in the area of Central America, we 
handled the Central American Freedom Program and its original 
-- its originator which had a working title of the Sacher 
program and the Central American Diplomacy Program. We 
handled the strategic defense initiative program for the 
Endowment and for Sentinel. We handled constitutional 
minutes program for the National Endowment. We handled a 
South African Program for th.e Endowment. We handled a 
terrorism program for the endowment. 

We assisted in setting up one of the political 
action committees, and other duties as a side. 

Q Did you ever read Jerry Lucas' memory book? 

A NO. 

Q Very good recitation of the services that you 
provided going back a couple of years ago. 

MR. DUDLEY: Jerry Lucas, as I understand it, can 
do the Cincinnati phone book. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Were there invoices supporting the fees and 



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expenses' portion of the NEPL payment? 

A For many of the fees and services, yes, we did have 
invoices . 

Q Do you know approximately for how many of the fees 
and services' portion was supported by invoices? 

A I never totalled that up, so I couldn't answer. 

Q Okay. 

When did you start issuing invoices to NEPL for 
your fees and services? 

A I think we started in December of 1985. It was an 
attempt to kind of get a handle on things because they had 
been so frantic and so all-consuming in their activities that 
we were — I was trying to get a handle on it, and so was Dan 
Conrad . 

Q How much of the $1.6 million — 

(Brief discussion off the record.) 
BY- MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I think I had started into a question. How much of 
the $1.6 million was attributable to fees, and how much was 
attributable to expenses, to the best of your recollection? 

A I really have not sat down and done a division on 
it. 

Q We discussed a little earlier the basis for your 
fees, and I take it that with respect to this $1.6 million, 
that basis that you described earlier this morning would 



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apply. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q So that a number of the projects for which you 
performed services were charged to NEPL on the basis of your 
estimation of what appropriate fees for the project should be. 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. 

Do you have any breakdown as to what percentage of 
your fees related to work performed for NEPL having to do 
with the contras or with Nicaragua? 

A No, I have never done it that way. 

Q All right. 

A I have attempted to quantify the total during the 
period and have given Mr. Channell a report that had a total 
figure for both, which was I think about $1.4 million. I 
think that's right. 

Q What would that $1.4 million be? 

A They are really all fees to IBC and all expenditures 
by IBC on MEPL's behalf for the programs. 

Q For all programs? 

A For all programs . 

Q Okay. 

And can you approximate for us approximately how 
much of that $1.4 or $1.6 million, as we have been talking 
this morning, related to NEPL projects in connection with 



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Central America or Nicaragua? 

A I have never done the math on it, so I really — I 
mean, at this point I think it would be almost impossible for 
me to do it. I would say it is at least half. That's about 
as arbitrary as I can be. I would say it is at least half. 

Q Okay . 

A It was their largest program. 

Q Okay . 

During the period, how much of IBC's total income 
was attributable to NEPL7 And I am still talking about the 
period from July of 1985 through November of 1986. 

A You want to know how much of IBC's income is 
attributable to NEPL in the period between — 

Q July 1985 and November 1986. 

A I have never quantified it, but I would say it's at 
least a third. 

Q If I told you that on the basis of records we have 
received from IBC and its financial institutions and from 
NEPL and their financial institutions that IBC's total income 
attributable to NEPL was 84 percent over that time period, 
would that surprise you? 

A You would have to be including the money that went 
to the assistance. 

Q That's right. 

A Then that is an erroneous figure. 

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MR. DUDLEY: That's got nothing to do with nothing. 

THE WITNESS: But we can do the math right now, if 
you want to. I am not being facetious. You take 84 percent 
of $5 million and take away $3.44 million, and that is what 
your percentage is. It would be considerably less than 80 
percent. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Okay. So basically, as I understand it, NEPL's 
total income during that period was somewhere in the neighbor- 
hood of about $6 million. 

MR. DUDLEY: You mean IBC's. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I'm sorry. I stand corrected. IBC's total income 
during that relevant period was -- including the direct 
contra assistance payments was somewhere very close to $6 
million. 

MR. DUDLEY: The problem I have with that is your 
characterization of the direct contra assistance programs as 
income to IBC, a position that we do not accept. 

MR. KAPLAN: Okay. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Then is it fair to say that under the way you 
calculate income that IBC's total income during the relevant 
time period was about $2.5 million, that is from July 1985 



through November 19867 



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A Where are you coming up with the $0.6 million, that 
is my problem? I don't have my records in front of me, so I 
can't tell you what our total 1985/1986 income was. 

MR. OLIVER: He subtracted 3.44 from 5 million. 
That's where it comes from. 

THE WITNESS: Yes, but it's apples and oranges. 
You take the $5 million and subtract 3.44. Then what came to 
IBC from NEPL was 1.6. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q And I believe that the records that have been 
submitted to the Committees by the various entities that I 
described a moment ago showed that IBC during that time 
period had additional income of approximately $1 million. 
A Over and above the. NEPL income. 
Q Right; that is right. 

MR. DUDLEY: Now if that concords with your 
recollection, tell him so. If you have no recollection — 

THE WITNESS: I don't have a recollection of a 
specific figure. I have never looked at it in those terms, 
and I would want to before I accepted any characterization. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Have your computations shown what IBC's total 
income was for 1985 and 1986? 

A I have never done a total IBC income computation 
for 1985/1986. 



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Q Okay. 

The computations that you have done recently, were 
they done at someone's request? 

A The Internal Revenue Service. 

MR. KAPLAN: Okay. Can we go off the record for a 
minute? 

MR. LEON: Off the record. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q How were the direct contra systems payments from 
NEPL to IBC treated by IBC? 

A As client reimbursable expenses. 

Q What were they considered to be reimbursements for? 
A You can't use that as an English language transla- 
tion. It's an accounting term that has to do with the fact 
that you were not taking possession of the money. You were 
simply passing it on at the behest of the client. 
Q Okay. I appreciate that. 

Is the treatment of these monies as client reimbur- 
sable expenses a treatment that was arrived at from consulta- 
tion with counsel? 

A Consultation with our accountants. 

MR. KAPLAN: Let's go off the record. 
(Discussion off the record, and consultation 
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THE WITNESS: In answer to your question, the 
accounting treatment of the NEPL assistance money is something 
that's under consideration at the moment between counsel and 
myself. And I don't have a specific answer for you at this 
time. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q At the time that the payments were made by NEPL to 
IBC for contra assistance, how did you treat them? That is, 
how did IBC treat those payments for tax purposes and/or for 
internal accounting purposes? 

A Again I think I have to give you the same answer, 
from an accounting and a tax standpoint. 

Q So they were treated as client reimbursable 
expenses? 

MR. DUDLEY: Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 
MR. DUDLEY: The issue of the tax and accounting 
treatment of payments received by IBC for assistance — from 
NEPL for assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance. It is a 
matter that is in a state of flux. The payments were 
initially characterized in 1985 on the books of the corpora- 
tion as client reimbursable expenses. 

It is not clear how they will be characterized 
either for tax purposes or actually in the final books of the 



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Vuhiniton. D C 20002 
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corporation for 1986. The tax returns for 1986 have not yet 
been filed. The company is under extension, and the issues 
are the subject of intense current discussion between Mr. 
Miller and his counsel. 

MR. KAPLAN: I appreciate that statement. 
One more question on the subject before we get off 
it entirely. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Did Mr. Channell or Mr. Conrad ever tell you how 
these payments should be treated on IBC's books? 

A No. 

Q I lied. One more question. 

Did Colonel North ever advise you as to how these 
payments should be treated on IBC's books? 

A No. 

Q What did IBC do with the contra assistance payments 
that were received from NEPL? 

A We put them in the general IBC account, and we 
disbursed them as directed by Colonel North. 

Q How did you know what payments were to be attributed 
for contra assistance? 

A Normally Mr. Channell announced them upon their 
arrival. In other words, he would bring a check and say this 
is assistance money. 

In the cases when we had to pick it up or it was 

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sent over, again he would do the same thing. 

Q Who determined the timing and amount of those 
payments? 

A Mr. Channell. 

Q Channell did. All right. 

Did North ever have any input to your knowledge as 
to the timing and amount of the contra assistance payments? 

A No. 

Q That is your knowledge? 

A The answer is still no. 

Q Is it possible that North spoke with Channell or 
Conrad as to the timing and amount of those payments without 
you knowing? 

A It's hypothetical.- I guess it's possible, but I 
have no way of knowing whether that ever took place. 

Q Okay. 

A There was one instance in which Colonel North asked 
for a specific amount of money prior to Mr. Channell raising 
money through NEPL. 

Q Would you describe that instance? 

A It happened in 1985 in I believe June. And Colonel 
North called me and said we need $30,000 desperately to the 
people involved in the southern front. And could I find 
somebody to give $30,000? 

He didn't designate anybody for me to talk to. I 

ISAIAI aAAir-8r-»% 



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called Mr. Channell Immediately and asked him If he could 
make a contribution or would one of his people make a 
contribution? And he put me almost immediately in touch by 
telephone with John Ramsey. And I explained the situation to 
John Ramsey, and John Ramsey wired a contribution] 



And subsequently I spoke to Mr. Channell. He 
suggested a thank you letter to Mr. Ramsey. I contacted 
Colonel North, and he said why don't you send a telegram my 
name, and I did that. 

Q This is the same solicitation that you testified 
about back on June 23rd7 

A Yes . So that would have been the only time where 
he determined the amount for us to raise. 

That's the only Instance that's responsive to your 
question. 

MR. KAPLAN: While we're on it, I an going to ask 
the reporter to mark as Memo 12, Exhibit 12, a copy of a 
document which was provided to us by your counsel, and ask 
you whether you can identify that document? 

[Exhibit No. 12 was marked for 
identification. ] 
THE WITNESS: Yes. It's a handwritten note of mine 
in a spiral notebook I kept. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: ..»-,»k| iftf^in^H 



«i OHt 



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Q Is No. 2, which states "okay on telegram," and then 
has Mr. Ramsey's name and address beneath that, along with 
Mr. Channell's name and address beneath that, are they notes 
of a conversation, the conversations with North that you just 
referred to about sending telegrams to those people? 

A This is a list of items which I needed to ac- 
complish, and the double-check means that I accomplished 
them. So that would indicate that North okayed a telegram to 
Reunsey and to Carl Russell Channell. 

Q The telegram to Ramsey has been marked as a 
previous exhibit during one of the previous sessions of your 
deposition. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter as 
Exhibit 13 a copy of the mailgram which purports to be a 
mailgram from Colonel North to Mr. Channell, the text of 
which reads, "Thank you for the help on such short notice. 
We all appreciate your heroic efforts," over Colonel" North's 
name. 

(Exhibit No. 13 was marked for 
identification. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Is that the mailgram that resulted pursuant to this 
handwritten note and your conversation with Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q While we're on that handwritten note, and that is 

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Exhibit 12, can you tell me, Mr. Miller what the first note 
on the page refers to which reads, "I believe North consider 
it done on RR to Spitz's letter"? 

A Spitz wanted a letter of appreciation from Ronald 
Reagan for his ad campaign. 

Q And was that letter issued to Mr. Channell to your 
knowledge? 

A I believe so. 

Q Okay. Down on No. 3, where it says "can see slide 
show, " do you recall what that note refers to? 

A I'm sure it's Colonel North's slide show, but it 
doesn't have anybody else's reference to it, so I'm not sure 
what the meaning of it is. 

Q Would this have been a slide show on Nicaragua? 

A That's Colonel North's slide show. 

Q Was it the same slide presentation that he made at 
the June 27 briefing? 

A 7es. 

Q And that he made on several other occasions? 

A Yes . 

Q Was that slide show largely comprised of slides 
that had been provided to Colonel North by you or other 
associates at IBC, or Mr. Channell or other associates at 
NEPL? 

A No. There were some pictures in it that were taken 



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by Frank Gomez ^^^^^^^^p^ which Colonel North had integrated 
into a slide show. But all the rest were official declas- 
sified photographs. 

Q Going back to where we were before we got side- 
tracked on that Ramsey solicitation, what did IBC eventually 
do with the direct contra assistance payments after segregat- 
ing them for contra assistance? 

A We spent them according to Colonel North's direc- 
tion. 

Q Did IBC, prior to spending them for the most part, 
send them along to IC, Inc.? 

A Well, actually, I think the initial transfers went 
to Lake Resources. There were transfers to 
There was the money spent on the al-Masoudi misadventure. 
And ultimately the objective was to move all the transactions 
into a situation where it was money to IBC which was passed 
immediately to IC, Inc. 

And the final objective was to have money passed 
directly from those who wanted to make contributions to IC, 
Inc. And we did accomplish that in '86. 

Q In '86. Do you recall when in '86 you instructed 
NEPL to begin sending payments directly to IC, Inc.? 

A I'm not sure of the specific date, but I think it 
started somewhere around September. 

Q Could it have been August of 1986? 



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A Could have been the end of August. 

Q At whose direction were these payments first passed 
to IC, Inc., were then sent directly to IC, Inc.? 

Did you tell Channell in August or September of '86 
to send the contra assistance payments directly to IC, Inc.? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you make the determination that the prior 
contra assistance payments to IBC would be passed to IC, 
Inc., or was that a determination made by someone else? 

A Well, Colonel North directed that they be sent to 
IC, Inc. The original transactions which were disbursed 
directly out of IBC were done so for expediency, not for dual 
purposes, but simply because there wasn't time to get it to 
IC, Inc., and then transfer -it from IC, Inc. 

Q Did North ever give you a reason why he wanted the 
monies transferred from IBC to IC, Inc. before ultimate 
distribution? 

A Well, we had several discussions about it, and some 
which I discussed earlier with you. 

The need for some insulation, and ultimately to 
provide some secrecy to the transactions. 

Q That was something that Colonel North expressed to 
you? 

A Sure. We were both very conscious of it. 

Q Then who made the — opened that determination to 



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instruct NEPL to begin sending payment directly to IC, Inc. 
in August or September of 19867 

A I did. 

Q You did, all right. 

Did you discuss that decision with Colonel North? 

A I don't recall whether I specifically discussed it 



with him 
Q 
A 



What prompted that decision? 
we were no longer involved in Mr. Channell's 
general programs . And the organization that we had then 
finished the charter change on in the Grand Caymans was 
sufficient to handle the transactions without them having to 
go through IBC. There was no reason any more for them to go 
through IBC. 

Q Did you ever tell Channell that IC, Inc. was an 
offshore company? 

A I'm sure I did. 

Q Actually in August or September of 1986, the 
company would have been called Intel Cooperation, Inc. by 
that time? 

A The first checks may have actually been to IC, Inc. 
But eventually they actually made their NEPL checks out to 
Intel Cooperation. 

Q All right. Do you recall when you might have told 
Channel that IC, Inc., or Intel Cooperation was an offshore 



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company? 

A I'm sure the seune time I told him to make the 
checks out to that entity. 

Q So that would have been sometime in the late summer 
or early fall of 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall, Mr. Miller, whether, before that 
time, you ever told Channell that there was another step 
beyond IBC in the direct contra assistance funding network 
that NEPL and IBC were engaged in? 

A I don't remember specifically telling him, but I 
may have . 

Q So your best recollection is that it wasn't until 
August or September of 1986 -that Mr. Channell had an under- 
standing that you and Mr. Gomez maintained the offshore 
company were direct contra assistance payments, eventually 
ended up before ultimate distribution? 

A Well, I can't agree with your question because 
you've assumed that he knew it was Mr. Gomez and myself. I'm 
not sure he did know that . 

Q What's your understanding of what he knew? 

A He knew that there was an offshore organization 
that was responsible for distributing these contributions. 

Q To your recollection, the first time that he became 
aware of that offshore company was in August or September of 



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1986? 

A Yes. 

Q When, to your knowledge, did Mr. Channell first 
become aware that you or Mr. Gomez were associated with that 
offshore company? 

A Probably not until this February, when I issued a 
report to him. 

Q When, to your knowledge, did Mr. Channel! or any of 
his associates first became aware that Colonel North had some 
informal association with this offshore company? 

A I don't know what you mean by informal association 
with the offshore company? I'm not sure he had one. 

Q Let me rephrase the question. 

When, to your knoviledge, did Mr. Channell or Mr. 
Conrad first become aware that Colonel North was directing 
the disbursements from IC, Inc. or Intel Cooperation? 

A Not until February of 1987. That's totally right. 
MR. DUDLEY: I know, but I just want to point 
something out. 

The question and answer are I think potentially 
misleading, because I think if you asked him when did they 
become aware that Colonel North had a role in directing the 
expenditure of the funds that they were contributing, the 
answer would be different. 

MR. KAPLAN: I will ask that question since I think 



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that's a good one. 

BY MR. KAPIAN: 

Q When, to your knowledge, did Channell or Conrad 
first become aware that North was directing the ultimate 
distribution of contra assistance funds that were paid by 
NEPL to IBC or to IC, Inc.? 

A I can't give you a specific date, but I would say 
that throughout the fall and into the winter of '85, '86, 
they became increasingly aware of his role. And by spring of 
1986 were, I think, aware that he was coordinating this 
activity. 

Q Did you ever tell him that he was coordinating this 
activity? 

A I don't think I ever specifically told him he was 
coordinating. 

Q When you all left the table back in July of '85 
from the meeting in which North suggested to Channell that he 
begin sending contra assistance payments to IBC, what is your 
impression of what Channell 's and Conrad's understanding was 
at that time? 

A That they were seeking Colonel North's advice and 
consent and direction as to who should receive the funds . 
And they got it, they got it, and the answer was to IBC. 

Q I take it you understood that when North directed 
the funds to go back to IBC that North would be involved in 

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coordinating the operation and directing the ultimate 
distribution of the funds? 

A Of course. 

Q Did Mr. Gomez have that Scune understanding to your 
knowledge? 

A No. He wasn't at the meeting. 

Q But did Mr. Gomez come to that understanding at 
some later point in time? 

A Yes. 

Q When did Gomez come to that understanding? 

A Actually we had that understanding prior to that 
meeting because that was the import of the al-Masoudi 
business in April. 

Q We're going to get to the al-Masoudi business but 
probably not till tomorrow. 

MR. KAPLAN: I think this is a good time for a 
break for me. 

[Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition recessed, to reconvene at 1:45 p.m., the same day. 



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AFTERNOON SESSION 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Now, Mr. Miller, you testified this morning that 
approximately $3.44 million of money was given to IBC or to 
IC, Inc. by NEPL for the purposes of direct contra assistance. 
Who directed the distribution of those funds beyond IBC and 
IC, Inc.? 

MR. DUDLEY: I don't want to quibble with you. I 
don't think he testified to that. I think those numbers were 
yours, and he said he didn't have his data in front of him 
and didn't dispute the numbers. 

THE WITNESS: 3.44 is my number. 
MR. DUDLEY: Okay. Then I am wrong. 
THE WITNESS: 3.44- was distributed — was given by 
NEPL by IBC to be given to the resistance. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Okay. 

And I take it some of that was also given to IC, 
Inc. as well? 
A Yes. 

Q Who directed the disbursement of that money beyond 
IBC or IC, Inc, as the case may be? 
A Colonel North. 

Q And who determined the timing and amount of those 
disbursements? 



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_ 1 A Colonel North. 

2 Q Okay. 

3 And how were those disbursements accomplished? 

4 A Normally by wire transfer. And I sent instructions 

5 to either my bank here or the bank in the Cayman Islands, or 

6 rather I sent instructions to the managing directors who then 

7 sent instructions to the bank. 

8 Q How did Colonel North know that IBC or IC, Inc. had 

9 some contra assistance money on hand to be disbursed? 

10 A I would have informed him when we received it, and 

11 we had for 1985 a running balance sheet, and in 1986 we also 

12 had a running balance sheet. 

13 MR. KAPLAN: I will ask the reporter to mark as 

14 Deposition Exhibit Number 14. a copy, a composite exhibit, 

15 which consists of what purports to be — the specifics are 

16 not important for purposes of my questioning — what purports 

17 to be a telex, I believe, from IC, Inc. to Mr. David Piesing, 

18 and that telex is dated June 13, 1986, and then attached to 

19 it for purposes of Exhibit 14 is what purports to be a letter 

20 identical to the telex, both signed by you and Mr. Gomez. 

21 (Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 

22 Number 14 was marked for 

23 identification.) 

24 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

mUMD H MOW IW U CO., MC 

M)7cs««. NE 25 Q Do you recognize that telex and letter? 

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A Yes. 

Q All I wanted to ask about these, is this letter and 
telex representative of the telexes and letters that you 
would send to the Cayman Islands pursuant to Colonel North's 
instructions for distribution of money from the IC, Inc. 
accounts? 

A Yes. 

Q would Colonel North typically give you the name of 
the recipient of the funds? 

A On some occasions he gave me the name. At this 
point, I know pretty much all of them, but at the time he 
gave me the actual account and the information associated 
with it that was necessary for me to make the transfer. 

Q Okay. 

Was that true in all instances that he would give 
you either the name of the recipient or both the name of the 
recipient and the account number? 

A Yes. 

Q I am going to run through a list of recipients that 
you compiled on the basis of information provided by a 
variety of entities, including IBC, and ask you to just tell 
me what you know about the nature of the organization and how 
much money they received through the NEPL, IBC and IC, Inc. 
channelling of funds. 

A I am not always going to be able to recall the 

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exact figure though. 

Q Okay. In any event, I can give you figures, and 
you tell me whether that seems right. 
Was there a Carlos Ulvert? 

A Yes. 

Q And was that a recipient to whom money was directed 
by Colonel North? 

A Yes. That transfer that you are describing is part 
of the $100,000 budget for the establishment of the Washington 
Office of the Unified Nicaraguan Opposition, and Mr. Ulvert 
was Executive Director. 

Q And did Colonel North give you the account informa- 
tion for the transfer of funds? 

A No . He told me to. work that out with Robert Kegan 
at the State Department, and Mr. Kegan put me in touch with 
Mr. Ulvert and at subsequent meetings Mr. Ulvert gave me the 
account information. 

Q Okay. Was Mr. Kegan involved in any other transfers 
of funds from the NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc. network? 

A Not that I am aware of. 

Q Had you known Mr. Kegan before Colonel North 
referred you to him? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you know him from the time that you had spent 



at the State Department? 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



_ 1 A Yes. 

2 Q We have got on our records a $10,000 payment to Mr. 

3 ulvert directly. You mentioned that that was part of a 

4 larger $100,000 payment. Where did the other $90,000 come 

5 from or to whom was it paid? 

6 MR. DUDLEY: The $100,000 budget is what he said. 

7 THE WITNESS: The actual dollar amount paid was 

8 $100,244.10. I think that is correct. There was $10,000 to 

9 the account of Mr. Ulvert. There was $11,000 to an account 

10 in Miami. There was — 

11 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

12 Q Wasn't that account in the name of Denise Ponce? 

13 A There is more than one account in Miami, but off 

14 the top of my head I think that is the one. 

15 Q Okay. 

16 A There was $15,000 to a gentlemen by the name of 

17 Katyal who was the landlord and the owner of the building. 

18 Q Here in Washington? 

19 A Here in Washington. 

20 There was $55,750 paid to a bank here in Washington, 

21 which represented the balance at the time. In addition, we 

22 paid out of IBC accounts $1,500 to Wynmark Corporation, who 

23 were the real estate agents who secured the property for us, 

24 and the balance of the rent of $4,500 was paid to Katyal. In 

muiM mmrma co., mc. 

MTcsont.NE 25 addition, we rented the furniture for about $2,544.10. I 

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think that is where that comes from. And we secured the 
telephones deposit, which we got backs. --.. _ 

I don't think I left anything out. I think that 
basically is aboutjL $100,000 . 

Q The $55,700 payment-, was that made to a bank on 
behalf of an entity or an organization called Latin American 
Finance? 

A I'm not sure that is the name of the entity. I 
think that is the bank's designation for its Latin American 
section. 

Q I see. 

A So whatever the bank was — it seems to me it was 
First American Bank or something. 

Q But the payment itself would have gone to something 
called Latin American Finance? 

A Correct. 

Q And were all those payments directed by Colonel 
North? 

A The $100,000 was directed by Colonel North and he 
instructed me to undertake the activity, and I kept him 
informed of the expenditures . 

Q Okay. 

A And I got the final approval for the final expendi- 
ture of $55,700; I got his approval because that would have 
wiped out the account 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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Q Our recorda show that Mr. Calero and accounts 
controlled by him were Alpha Services, Inc. — received 
approximately $1,030,000 from the IC, Inc. account. 

A That's correct. 

Q Is that in Keeping with your records or close to it? 

A Yes. 

I think his total figure is 51,230,000. 

Q Were those disbursements also directed by Colonel 
North? 

A Yes. 

Q Were they directed to accounts identified to you by 
number by Colonel North? 

A Yes . 

Q The computation w» have done shows approximately 
$31,000 were distributed to^^^^^^H Is that reasonably 
consistent with your recollection? 

A NO, actually it is $41,000. There was a $10,000 
wire transfer from the National Bank of Washington communica- 
tions account for a total of, I believe, $41,000. 



Q 

A 

Q 

North? 

A 

Q 



Right. And 31 would have come from IC, Inc.? 

Correct. 

were both of those transfers directed by Colonel 



Yes. 



And were tli^y'directed'tjorjaccounts by number by 

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Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q 
$125,000 

A 

Q 

A 



Friends of America we show received approximately 



That's correct. 

What can you tell us about Friends of America? 

Friends of the Americas is a humanitarian organiza- 
tion operated by Woody and Diane Jenkins from Louisiana. It 
provides medical care and feeding facilities for Meskito 
Indians and Nicaraguan refugees 




Q How did you arrive at that understanding as to what 
Friends of the Americas was? 

A I have known about- Friends for four years . 

Q Did Colonel North direct the funds from IC, Inc. to 
Friends of America? 

A ^ Yes . 

Q And did he provide you with bank account information 
allowing you to direct those funds? 

A Yes. 

Q Okay . 

Gulf? and Caribbean Foundation received from IC, 
Inc. $21,182. 

A Correct . 

Q And th^ is former Congressman Kuykendall's 



isimi anf^inrn 



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organization. 

A That ' s correct . 

Q And did Colonel North direct the funds to be sent 
to Gulf and Caribbean Foundation? 

A Well, in an indirect way. 

Q All right. Can you tell us what you mean by that? 

A I was contacted by Colonel North and asked to find 
an organization who would be willing to serve as the guarantor 
of surgical procedures. In fact, I think he characterized it 
as reconstructive surgery. And I agreed to do so. I called 
Dan Kuykendall and asked him if the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation would be willing to be the guarantor for the 
surgery through a group of Miami doctors. He checked with 
his Board and came back and .said that they would be willing 
to do that . And we agreed that he would give me the name and 
address. I gave the name and address to Fawn Hall, and the 
hospital or doctors' organization sent the bills to Gulf and 
Caribbean when they arrived. And they arrived on two 
different occasions. 

We sent checks from IC, Inc. to the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation so that they could pay the bills. And I 
believe that they charged a 1 or 2 percent overhead to take 
care of the accounting and the check writing. 

Q Our compilation shows that the Institute for 

Terrorism and Sub-National Conflict received $75,000 from IC, 



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Inc. 



A That's correct. 

Q Did Colonel North direct that disbursement as well? 

A Yes. 

Q And was the disbursement made to an account 
identified by number by Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us what you know, if anything, about 
the Institute for Terrorism and Sub-National Conflict? 

A It's a foundation in Washington run by Neal 
Livingston, and at the time of the transfer Rob Owen was 
employed by them. And their principal focus is on sub- 
terrorism and sub-national conflicts, and Nicaragua is a sub- 
national conflict. 

Q Did you come to any understanding as to how those 
funds were used? 

A The only understanding that I have is that in some 
way it related to Rob Owen's being there. What the specifics 
were I wasn't told. 

Q Okay . 

Our records show that approximately $1.3 million 
was sent to Lake Resources from the IC, Inc. account and 
apparently $4 30,000 was sent to Lake Resources from IBC 
directly. 

A That's correct. 



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Q Were those disbursements, because there were 
several, directed by Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q And were they, directed to accounts that were 
identified to you by number by Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you contemporaneously with those disbursements 
have any understanding as to what the purpose, what the 
function of Lake Resources was? 

A Well, my original understanding was that it was an 
organization for the benefit of the Nicaraguan resistance. I 
never heard of Mr. Hakim until his name surfaced in regards 
to this inquiry, and the only thing I had seen about General 
Secord was the news report £ibout him buying an airplane 
somewhere down south, in the southern part of the United 
States . 

And in regards to what we were raising money for, 
we had some idea each time we spoke to contributors about the 
specific items that we were raising money for. So we had 
some understanding that the money transferred there was to 
pay for those specific items. 

Q And you are talking about specific lethal items. 

A Both lethal and non-lethal. 

Q Okay. 

But I take it that you came to an understanding 



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that when there were solicitations intended for the purchase 
of lethal supplies that took place, that the money that was 
contributed in response to those solicitations usually ended 
up in Lake Resources ultimately. 

A I don't think I ever made the connection between 
those two things . 

Q Okay. 

Latin American Strategic Studies Institute received 
some $50,000. Is that correct? 

A It sounds right. 

Q And did it also receive. $25, 000 directly from IBC? 

A It did. That was part of the Central American 
Freedom Program. 

Q So a total of $75,-000 and all went to Latin 
American Strategic Studies Institute? 

A Correct. 

Q Were those disbursements directed by Colonel North 
as well? 

A Yes. 

Q All $75,000 worth? 

A Yes. 

The $25,000 was for a briefing book on Nicaragua, 
and Colonel North asked that it be funded and Adolfo Calero 
asked that it be funded. And we funded it out of the 
resistance money. 



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Q And I take it that the transfer was made to an 
account identified by number by Colonel North? 

A Correct. 

Q What's your understanding as to the nature of the 
activities conducted by the Latin American Strategic Studies 
Institute with those funds? 

A My understanding is that it was used for public 
education and I have a letter from them, but I can't recall 
what the specifics of it are, but public education. 

Q How did you reach that understanding? 

A I asked for a letter in response to a need to know 
what they spent the money on. 

Q Was Father Dowling an acquaintance of yours? 

A Yes. I knew Father Dowling for about the same 
period of time that I knew Spitz Channell. , 

Q Did you know that Father Dowling was one of the 
principals in the Latin American Strategic Studies Institute? 

A I did. 

MR. LEON: You did or did not? 
THE WITNESS: I did. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q A couple more questions about the $55,700 that went 
to this Latin American Finance. Were you told what the use 
of those funds would be at the time that the disbursement was 
directed by Colonel North? 



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A Yes. They were for the administration of the UNO 
office in Washington salaries. 

MR. LEON: Would you say that name again? 
THE WITNESS: UNO Office in. Washington. 
They were for the administration expenses and 
salaries associated with the UNO Office in Washington. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Just to clarify the record, my understanding of 
your testimony is that Latin American Finance was a section 
of the bank to which the payment was made for this purpose so 
that the disbursement would read as a disbursement to 
something called Latin American Finance. Is that correct? 

A I don't know. My recollection is= that Latin 
American Finance has more to do with the bank itself than it 
does the recipient. The recipient was whatever the account 
was for the resistance organizations. 

Q Were you given an account number for that disburse- 
ment as with the others? 

A I was given an account for that disbursement by 
Carlos Ulvert. 
Q Okay. 

What role did Mr. Kegan at the State Department 
play in the coordination of the disbursement of this $100,000 
plus a little to coordinate or pay expenses and salaries for 



the local UNO office? 



\m hmm 



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iNCLASSIFIED 



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_ 1 A Well, Colonel North called me on the telephone and 

2 told me to get the Washington office operational and that my 

3 contact in doing that would be Bob Kegan at the State 

4 Department. And I called Bob Kegan and told him of the 

5 conversation and suggested that I should meet with Carlos 

6 Ulvert, the new Executive Director. Mr. Kegan arranged the 

7 meeting. I asked Mr. Ulvert for a budget. He provided a 

8 budget, and I went to Colonel North and discussed the total 

9 figure with him, and subsequently got his approval to fund it. 

10 Q Do you recall when these conversations took place? 

11 A It seems to me it was about March. It's just about 

12 the same time as the first transfer to Katyal. 

13 Q I take it that would be reflected on the records 

14 that you have provided us. - 

15 A Yes, within 30 days of that period, 30 days prior 

16 to that period. 

17 Q So there wasn't a long lead time from the time of 

18 those conversations to the actual payment, the coordination 

19 of those payments? 

20 A Ollie North had no long lead times. , It was done — 

21 it was one of those things that was required to be done 

22 immediately. 

23 Q Could it have occurred some time within a month or 

24 so of July 30, 1986? 

wlleu NvoimHo CO., mc. 

M7csar«NE 25 A Whatever the Katyal transfer date was, it is liable 

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>07 C Sam. N E 
Wuhmfna. DC 20002 




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to be about a week or two prior to that. 

Q Now the records we have show that there is really a 
couple months' period between the Katyal payment and the 
Latin American Finance payment. 

A Oh, yes. Latin American Finance was the end of the 
grant process. 

Q I see. 

A Basically, we were turning over to them the funds 
to administer the office themselves. 

Q So you had the conversations with Kegan and Kegan 
referred you to Ulvert, and then you started making payments 
to control the support purpose. 

A Correct. 

Q And one of the first payments was to Katyal, and 
one of the last payments was to this Latin American Finance. 

A Latin American Finance was the last payment. 

Q Okay . 

Do you recall a $10,000 disbursement from IC, Inc. 
to the Nicaraguan Business Council? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Colonel North direct that payment? 

A Colonel North approved that payment. 

Q Okay. And when you say — I noticed that you 
changed my wording to "approved" in this case. Can you 
explain to me — 



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A Yes. Mr. Matamoros approached me and said that the 
Nicaraguan resistance wanted to bring a group of Central 
American Congressmen to the United States to be before 
national media and to meet with officials in Washington, and 
that it would cost $10,000. And he asked if I could give him 
$10,000. I called Colonel North, asked his permission, and 
he said yes, and I sent him $10,000. 

Q I take it the Nicaraguan Business Council is 
different from the Nicaraguan Development Council? 

A That's correct. 

Q The Nicaraguan Development Council received our 
records show a $31,000 payment directly from IBC. Is that 
correct? 

A Actually, there were two payments, one of $6,000 
and one of $25,000. 

Q All right, combined. 

Here those payments to the Nicaraguan Development 
Council directed by Colonel North? 

A Yes . 

Q They were. Again, were they directed to accounts 
identified by account number by Colonel North? 

A In those two instances, each of them is slightly 
different. The $6,000 was for travel expenses associated 
with several of the UNO leaders coming to Washington, 
expenses that the NBC had absorbed, and I was approached by 

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Mr. Metamoros to pay those expenses, and I got Colonel 
North's permission to do so. 

In the case of the $25,000, that was $25,000 urgently 
needed, again, by Mr. Metamoros for payroll taxes, and 
attorney's fees, and general operating expenses for the NDC 
office. And he approached me on it, and I contacted Colonel 
North, and Colonel North approved the expenditure. 

Q What can you tell us about the Nicaraguan Develop- 
ment Council? 

A The Nicaraguan Development Council is an organiza 
tion in Washington, tax-exempt but I don't think tax-deduc- 
tible. It is a organization that basically serves as the 
domestic arm of the Nicaraguan resistance. One of the 
domestic arms of the Nicaraguan resistance. 

Q Similarly, what can you tell us about the Nicaraguan 
Business Council? 

A I really know nothing about the Nicaraguan Business 
Council. Just that they were the sponsors of this group of 
Congressmen. 

Q All right. Do you recall a $60,000 disbursement 
from IC, Inc. to an entity called Pigfield Enterprises? 

A Pigfield Enterprises? 

Q Right. 

A No. Would there be another name associated with it? 
MR. DUDLEY: Parkfield Enterprises? 

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THE WITNESS: Where? What country was it disbursed 



to? 



MR. KAPLAN: I believe it was disbursed — can we go 
off the record for a second. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 

THE WITNESS: Are you talking about a $40,000 and a 
$20,000 transfer? 

MR. KAPLAN: I believe that's correct. 
THE WITNESS: One right after the other? 
MR. KAPLAN: And it's to a financial institution in 
Florida. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. I recall that. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Were those disbursements directed by Colonel North? 
A Yes . 

Q Were they to account numbers provided to you by 
Colonel North? 
A Yes. 

Q And what can you tell us about those disbursements, 
if not about Pigfield, or Parkfield Enterprises itself? 

A At the time that those transfers were accomplished. 
Colonel North told me that they were to assist the church in 
Nicaragua to recover from the harassment that they had 
suffered at the hands of the Sandinista government, including 



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the smashing of the presses and the confiscation of printing 
materials. And also, operation of the church organization 
which had been greatly curtailed. There have been subsequent 
revelations that that account is associated with Cardinal 
Obando y Bravo, but I have no way to independently verify 
that. 

Q What about Polca, S.A.? Do you recall a $25,000 
distribution to a recipient named Polca, P-o-l-c-a-, S.A.? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that a disbursement that was directed by 
Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it to an account identified by number by 
Colonel North? 



Yes. 



What can you tell us, if anything, eUDout Polca, 



S.A. 7 



.A I don't have any idea who it is. 

Q Okay. Do you recall when that distribution was 
made, offhand? 

A Late in 1986. 

Q Late 1986. Was it some time prior to Colonel 
North's having left the NSC? 

A It was given to me prior to Colonel North leaving 
the NSC. I don't know whether I accomplished it prior to his 



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leaving the NSC 

Q Okay. 

A Because there's a great lag time between the time 
he would pass instructions and the time they would be 
executed by the managing partners in the Caymans. It's part 
of the problem of doing business — 

Q I see. What kind of lag time would there be 
between the time that Colonel North gave you instructions, 
and the time that you sent a Telex, and letter, as marked as 
an exhibit earlier today, to the Cayman Islands? 

A It really varied. It depended on his expression of 
urgency. In some cases, the transactions were continuing, 
such as $5,000 a month, or $7,000 a month, or 10,000 once a 
month for the next three months, or something to that effect. 

Q But generally speaking, when Colonel North gave you 
instructions, you implemented them fairly promptly? 

A As quickly as I could, yes. 
. Q Do you recall disbursements totalling $60,000 to a 
group called Friends of Freedom, directly from IBC? 

A Friends of Freedom? 

Q Right. 

A No. 

Q What about the same amount then, $60,000, to 
Alfonso Robelo? 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q And did Colonel North direct those disbursements? 
A Yes. 

Q Again, did he direct them to account numbers that 
were identified by him? 
A Yes. 

Q What's your understanding as to the uce of that 
$60,000? 

A That money was to support Mr. Robelo's political 
organization^^HUHHHj pay his employees' salaries, and 
newsletter cost, and travel expenses, administrative overhead 

Q Was the contribution that you described earlier, 
pursuant to the solicitation requested by Colonel North to 
^^ also intended for Robelo's behalf? 
A Yes . 

Q IBC also distributed a total of $100,000 to an 
individual named Gary Bagdasarian. Is that correct? 
A Yes . 

Who is Gary Bagdasarian? 
He's an attorney for Ibrahim al-Masoudi. 
And where is he located? 
California. Fresno. 

In Fresno. Was that part of your undertaking with 
al-Masoudi, that you would pay his attorney's fees? 

A Well, it was one of the expenditures that we paid 
on behalf of al-Masoudi. 




-Q 
A 

Q 
A 
Q 



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Q Did Mr. Bagdasarian represent al-Masoudi in 
connection with the criminal charges that were eventually 
filed against him? 

A I don't believe so. 

MR. DUDLEY: PD in Philadelphia. 

MR. KAPIiAM: So the record's clear, PD is a Public 
Defender. 

[Brief recess. ] 

MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 

MR. DUDLEY: Before we b^n^, there is one thing 
Mr. Miller wanted to clarify. 

THE WITNESS: I think you left the impression that 
the money for Bagdasarian was for fees for Bagdasarian. It 
apparently was not. In fact- it was represented to us at the 
time that that's what it was for. It was for something 
entirely different. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
- Q Do, you know what it was used for? 

A It was used for a forfeited performance bond that 
al-Masoudi supposedly had to forfeit. It was 104,000, total. 

MR. DUDLEY: And what it was actually used for-- 

MR. KAPLAN: Was Bagdasarian the guarantor on the 
performance bond? Is that what your understanding was? 

THE WITNESS: No, no. It was al-Masoudi 's perfor- 
mance bond. Bagdasarian was simply serving, I think, as a 

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BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q What was the performance for? Do you know? 

A I don't. 

Q What was the source of the $100,000 that was paid 
to Mr. Bagdasarian? 

A That was assistance money. 

Q Did Colonel North direct that $100,000 disbursement? 

A Yes. He approved that $100,000 disbursement. 

Q He approved it. So that I take it, then, you were 
asked to make good on a $100,000 performance bond that al- 
Masoudi forfeited on, and you called Colonel North and you 
told him that you were asked to make good on this, should you 
pay it, and he told you to pay it? 

A Yes . 

Q And did he tell you from which funds to pay the 
$100,000? 

A Well, we were only dealing with one set of funds, 
and that was the assistance money. 

Q And it was the assistance money that had been 
passed to you by NEPL? 

A NEPL and, at that stage, maybe also the Heritage 
Foundation, and — well, at least one other contributor. 

Q who was that one other contributor? 



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A His name was Barness, B-a-r-n-e-s-s, and it was a 
single check for $5,000 which I sent to IC, Inc. But all the 
al-Masoudi money was assistance money. 

Q And when you say "assistance money" you're referring 
to money coming either from NEPL, from Heritage Foundation, 
contributions, or to this $5,000 from Mr. Barness? 

A Correct. 

Q Other than Mr. Regan's invo-lvement , which you 
described a bit earlier, to your knowledge, was anyone else 
at the NSC and the White House, or in any other department or 
agency of the United States Government, involved with or 
knowledgeable of the contra funding network that you and 
NEPL, and Colonel North were engaged in? 

A Fawn Hall. Robert- Earl. I'd say that's about it. 

Q To your knowledge, how would you describe the 
extent of Fawn Hall's knowledge? 

A Intimate. ^ 

Q And how did you arrive at that understanding as to 
the extent of her knowledge? 

A Well, sometimes instructions to me, by North, would 
be passed through her, or a message would be passed through 
her, and I might pass a message back. He was often out of 
the office, out of the countiry, and Fawn was a reliable 
communications source. 

Q Was it clear from your conversations with Fawn Hall 

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that — well, that she knew about the "goings-on" of the 
operation? 

A I would say — I'm probably not qualified to charac- 
terize what she knew. 

MR. DUDLEY: I'm not sure what "goings-on" are. 
THE WITNESS: I really don't know hew to charac- 
terize her state of knowledge. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Did it appear from your conversations with her, 
that she was aware of the nature of the activities? 

A The general nature, yeah. 

Q What about Robert Earl? 

A Well, given that instance which I recalled to you 
earlier this morning about the chart, I get some sense that 
maybe Earl was a little more conversant with details. 

Q Did you ever have any conversations with Earl, with 
North, or with anyone else, that led you to the conclusion 
that you just expressed? 

A About Earl? 

Q Yes . 

A Yeah, but I can't recall any of them, specifically. 

Q Did Earl ever give you any instructions with 
respect to disbursements of funds, or the like, in connection 
with the contra- funding activities? 

A I don't remember any, specifically. 



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1 Q Was John Roberts, to your knowledge, aware of the 

2 nature of your contra-funding activities? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Was Elliott Abrams, to your knowledge, aware of 

5 those activities? 

6 A No. 

7 Q Who, at NEPL, was aware of these activities, other 

8 than Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad? 

9 A When you say "these activities", you're talking 

10 about the assistance? 

11 Q That's right. If you'll allow me, I'll refer to 

12 them by the shorthand of "the network", but what I'm referring 

13 to is the NEPL, IBC, IC, Inc., and beyond, funnelling 

14 relationship. 

15 A Well, at IBC there was only Frank Gomez and myself. 

16 MR. DUDLEY: Who at NEPL? 

17 THE WITNESS: At NEPL, I would say Spitz Channell 

18 and J)an Conrad, Cliff Smith, and of course Littledale. 

19 BY MR. KAPLAN: 

20 Q And how would you describe--if you can — Cliff 

21 Smith's knowledge? 

22 A General. But I always got the feeling that the 

23 solicitations for assistance money were done primarily by 

24 Spitz. 

mjjn Kp owrwo co.. inc , , i ^ 

ytTCSu^.Ni 25 Q And what about Littledale 's knowledge? How would 

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you characterize that? 

A Again, general. 

Q How would you characterize Frank Gomez's knowledge 
of the contra-assistance activities? 
A Peripheral. 

Peripheral . So — 

Well, I don't know if that's the right word. 
Feel free to give me more than a one-word answer. 
Frank was knowledgeable about the transactions, and 
was knowledgeable about the structure. The day-to-day 
details were something that I attended to, not Frank. 

Q And when you say "knowledgeable of the transac- 
tions", what exactly do you mean by that? 

A Well, his name had to go on the transactions just 
as mine did, so he would have been knowledgeable about the 
transactions. 

Q Did he just come in and sign letters, or did 
someone explain to him what was going on here? 

A Both he signed letters and I received verbal 
agreement from him when we transmitted Telexes . 

Q And did he understand what the substance of the 
letters he was signing were? 
A Yes. 

Q He did. And did he understand that he was a 
necessary "spoke in the wheel"', so to speak? 

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A Yes. 

Q How would you characterize Jonathan Miller's 
knowledge, if any, of the network? 

A I don't think he had any knowledge of it; not from 
me, anyway. 

Q Are you aware of whether he had any knowledge of 
the operation of the network from anyone else? 

A Well, he was working for a while fairly closely 
with Colonel North, and in fact was working out of his 
office, Colonel North's office, for a while. 

Q Was he engaged in the contra funding and fundraising 
activities? 

A I don't know that he was involved in fundraising, 
but I know Frank has reported to me one instance when 
Jonathan offered traveler's checks to one of the Meskito 
leaders, and I think it was Diego Wycliff, but I'm not sure 
which of the Meskito leaders it was. 

Q When you referred to "Frank" a moment ago, you were 
referring to Frank Gomez? 

A Yeah. Frank told me about an instance in which he 
was at the National Security Council offices, and in effect 
he was doing the translation for Jonathan, and serving as 
kind of an escort for this Indian leader, and Jonathan was 
trying to convince him to become part of the resistance 
movement. And as a show of his good faith, he held up 

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several thousand dollars in traveler's checks and basically 
offered financial support necessary for the guy to run his 
organization as part of UNO. 

Q I take it you're no relation to Jonathan Miller? 

A No. 

Q When was the World Affairs Counsellors, Inc. 
established? 

A April 1986. I believe the 25th. 

Q Why was World Affairs Counsellors formed? 

A The first, primary reason was to accept the 10 
percent overhead charge which we began charging Colonel North 
in the IC, Inc. and assistance transfers. And secondarily, we 
wanted to do more of this type of business for resistance 
movements or political entities — or, excuse me — international 
foundations. And as a result, we also built into the charter 
of that organization political, media relations, strategic 
planning. That type of thing. 

Q In your prior testimony, I believe that you 
testified that it was some time in late 1985, that you 
discussed with Colonel North your interest in charging 10 
percent of the assistance funds that were passed to IBC, and 
through IBC, is that correct? 

A Right. 

Q I take it that you specifically recall mentioning a 
figure of 10 percent to Colonel North? 

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A Yes. I do. 

Q And you also testified, back in June, that Colonel 
North commented to you something like, 10 percent would be 
fine because most of the people in the contra-assiatance 
business are taking 20 to 30 percent. Is that correct? 

A Yeah. I think it was almost exactly his words that 
he said, 10 percent is fine, most of the people involved in 
this are taking anywhere from 10--or anywhere from 20 to 30 
percent. 

Q Do you recall the specific conversation in which 
you first raised with Colonel North this interest of you and 
Kr. Gomez wanting to dedsct 10 percent from the asisistance 
payments? 

A I don't remember the specific conversation. I 
remember the basic elements of it. 

Q would it have been in the context of coniversations 
about other disbursements being made of assistance- funds? 

A Well, one of the first and foremost reasons was 
after the al-Hasoudi business, and working with the resistance 
leaders, it became clear that this was costing us money. 

I mean, we were using fees associated wiith other 
activities to pay for our time associated with this, and al- 
Masoudi had actually been money out of our pocket, and as a 
consequence we thought we'd better start charging an overhead 
fee or we were going to continue to lose money, and we 

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weren't that profitable, that we could afford to do it. 

Q I'm not going to mark as an exhibit, but I'm going 
to show you a notation which I'll represent to you is from 
Colonel North's notebook, dated November 19, 1985. 

MR. DUDLEY: Off the record. 

MR. KAPLAN: Yes. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 

MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 

I'd like the reporter to mark as an exhibit a page 
of notations which our date stamp show were taken from 
Colonel North's notebooks provided to the Committees. 

I'd like to state, for the record, that this 
Exhibit 15 has been reviewed internally, and determined that 
there is no classified information that hasn't already been 
testified to by Mr. Miller, or other parties, in connection 
with these investigations. 

The insertion of this page of Colonel North's 
notebooks into the record in no way is intended as a waiver of 
any classification and declassification procedure that 
appropriately would apply to any other notes in the notebooks 
produced to the Committees by Colonel North in connection 
with his testimony. 

[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 15.] 



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BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Mr. Miller, do you recognize the handwriting on 
Deposition Exhibit 15? 

A Well, I think it's Colonel North's handwriting. 

Q And reading down, it says, "R. Miller", and I've 
assumed that that applies to you. Are you aware of any other 
R. Millers with whom Colonel North had dealings or conversa- 
tions? 

A No. 

Q And at the top of the page is the notation, 19, N- 
o-v, for November — and I'll represent to you that this came 
from a 1985 notation. It states a time, I believe, as 11:30, 
and as I can read it, I believe it says, "On hand, and acted 
on . " 

And then it lists information as to the movement, 
or requested movement of certain amounts of money to various 
recipients . 

Are those recipients that you recognize? 

A Yes, but I think you've misread it. I think it 
says "Oliver North had and acted on." I think that's "O.N." 

Q O.N. stands for Oliver North. Okay. And does this 
notation refresh your recollection as to a conversation you 
had with Colonel North back on November 19, 1985? 

A This is the probably the conversation that you and 
I just spoke of a moment ago. 

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MR. DUDLEY: His question to you was whether it 
refreshes your recollection-. He asked you a number of things 
about it. He asked you the substance of it, and he asked you 
the date of it, and I think he's asking if, after reviewing 
that, you now have any further independent recollection 
either of the substance of the conversation or whether it 
actually took place on November 19th. 

MR. KAPLAN: That's correct. 

THE WITNESS: I can't confirm whether it was 
November 19th. It seems to me that all these transfers are 
transfers that we got instructions for pretty much all at 
once, and this church account thing at the bottom is exactly 
what I got for the transfer to the church account. So it's 
probably all the same conversation. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Okay. And toward the bottom of the top half of the 
page, you see the notation that says, and I quote: "IBC, 
dasji, 10 percent." Close quote. 
A Right . 

Q Is this note consistent with your general recollec- 
tion as to Colonel North's approval of you and Mr. Gomez 
charging 10 percent for your seirvices and professional risk in 
your activities in connection with the contra funding, or 



contra-assistance network? 



A Yes. 



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Q So if Colonel North were to say that he never 
discussed a specific number with you, I take it that you 
would say his recollection was probably wrong? 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to asking witnesses to 
conunent on testimony of other witnesses. He can tell you what 
his recollection is, and from that you can draw your con- 
clusions, but I don't think it's appropriate to ask one 
witness whether another witness is right, or wrong. 
BY MR. KAPLANS 

Q Would it be inconsistent with your recollection, if 
Colonel North testified that he didn't recall discussing a 
specific number with you? 

A I don't know what you mean by "specific number." 

Q That is, 10 percent. 

A If the question's 10 percent, then that would be 
inconsistent. 

Q But I take it that your recollection, independent 
of Exhibit 15, and as refreshed or confirmed by Exhibit 15, 
is that you specifically asked Colonel North for approval to 
charge 10 percent of the money that was passed through IBC 
for contra assistance? 

A That's correct. 

Q I take it that your recollection is that you 
specifically received his approval for the 10 percent figure? 

A Yes. 



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[Brief recess . ] 

MR. KAPLAN; Let's go back on the record. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q After receiving Colonel North's approval to begin 
charging this 10 percent, when did you begin to deduct the 10 
percent from the contra-assistance payments that were passing 
through IBC? 

A There was one $400,000 contribution where 10 
percent was deducted, and then I think most of it was 
deducted in the Grand Caymans, and some of it was done in 
retroaction to the formation of World Affairs Counsellors. 
Because they just didn't have time to get down there and form 
World Affairs Counsellors, and so we had to do it in retrosp- 
ect. 

Q And when you say it was done in retrospect, did you 
begin deducting the 10 percent as a paper matter, some time 
prior to the formation of World Affairs Counsellors? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when you started deducting the 10 
percent as a paper matter? 

A It was pretty close to this period in time. 

Q Go ahead, if you've got something to add. 

A No. 

Q Do you recall the total amount of funds that were 
deducted as part of this 10-percent charging of the contra- 

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assistance payments? 

A I don't have an exact figure for you but it's 
somewhere around 250 to $300,000. 

Q All right. Is it possible that the amount is 

closer to 440 to $450,000? 

A No. 

[Witness and attorney consult.] 
THE WITNESS: I know what your concern is. The 
tail end of 1986, Colonel North gave us a directive to use 
the remaining money in the account to pay legal fees as- 
sociated with what we expected to be inclusion in some of the 
matters that were pending down in the Federal court in Miami . 
And in addition to that, we also sought reimburse- 
ment for some specific items-, and in fact had to — for 
instance — reimbursement Miller Communications for the 10,000 
that went ^o^^^^^^H Things like that. And there was 
generally a paper ledger kept on that. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Did any funds make their way into World Affairs 
Counsellors, that were not part of this 10-percent charge, or 
commission? 

A Any funds removed from IC, Inc. that were commis- 
sion or reimbursement, that was the only way they went, was 
into World Affairs Counsellors. 



So that-- 



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A So it's the rule rather than the exception. 

Q So that if 440 to $450,000 made its way into World 
Affairs Counsellors, that might well represent the total 
amounts that were deducted, or charged off as part of this 
10-percent charge or commission. 

A That's correct, although I think there are some 
charges on this side of the Gulf of Mexico. I think there 
are some charges in IBC accounts, at times, when, for 
expediency reasons, money was transferred from IBC. 

Q But if the records reflected that approximately 440 
to $450,000 were deducted from IC, Inc., and placed into the 
World Affairs Counsellors' account, you wouldn't dispute that 
that amount is, if not all, at least very largely attributable 
to the 10-percent charge, or commission that Colonel bkarth 
approved back in November 1985. Is that correct? 

A If you want me, I'll define large for you. I know 
at least 100,000 of it was for legal fees at his direction, 
and. I can't give you an exact figure, but several tens of 
thousands more were for specific reimbursement items. 

Q But nonetheless, the $100,000 for legal fees, I 
take it, was money that was taken for the personal benefit of 
you, or Mr. Gomez? I mean, the legal fees were at least 
intended to be paid on behalf of you or Mr. Gomez's behalf, 
is that right? 

A That's correct. 



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Q So it might not have been a part of the 10-percent 
charge or commission that Colonel North approved, but 
nonetheless all monies that went into World Affairs Counsel- 
lors were monies that were ultimately used for the benefit of 
either you or Mr. Gomez? 

A No. 

Q Tell me where I'm wrong, because we can clarify the 
record on this, and move on. 

A Well, if you are willing to accept that there were 
reimbursement items in that money, then those items were not 
for our benefit. They were simply reimbursement to us for 
expenditures that we had to make. 

Q What kinds of expenditures would those have been 
reimbursement for? 

like the to^^^^^^^^^^^^H that 
had to come, out of Miller Communications. There was $10,000 
in the cost of setting up the original corporations . There 
was $100,000 in legal fees. I can't think of all of them, 
off the top of my head. 

Q The $100,000 in legal fees, for instance. 
[Witness and attorney consult.) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q The $100,000 in legal fees, for instance, for whose 
benefit was that money either spent, or intended to be spent? 

A Well, to defend IBC. I mean, we fully expected the 



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organization to come under legal attack. 

Q And who were the two partners of IBC? 
A Frank Gomez and Rich Miller. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Deposition Exhibit 16, again, a composite exhibit. I'm 
not going to ask you any questions about the top letter 
because I think you've covered that in your testimony. 
[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 16. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q The second page of the exhibit purports to be a 
letter from David Piesing, at Cayhaven Corporate Services, 
Limited, to you, dated May H, 1986. The letter is short, 
and I'll just read it into the record. 

It says, quote: "I refer to the verbal instructions 
that you gave me during your trip here earlier in the month." 
That is, that you gave to Mr. Piesing. "For some reason it 
was overlooked, but we shall need written instructions from 
you to automatically deduct 10 percent from any grants 
received from this company, and to pay the 10 percent 
deduction over to World Affairs Counsellors, Inc. as a 
commission." Close quote. The rest are salutary words. 
Can you identify this letter? 
A Yeah. This was a letter from me to Mr. Piesing, 



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referring to my instructions that from the beginning of World 
Affairs Counsellors, any monies that came into IC, Inc., 
there was to be an automatic deduction of 10 percent, and 
that money was to be deposited in World Affairs Counsellors. 

Q And those instructions that you gave to Mr. Piesing 
were simply the carrying out of an approval that Colonel 
North had given to you back in November of 1985? 

A Yes. But this was at the formation of World 
Affairs Counsellors. 

Q Right. 

A The instructions were that any money that came, 
once World Affairs Counsellors had been established — any 
money from that date forward, that came into IC, Inc., there 
was to be a 10 percent automatic deduction. 

Q And the 10 percent that is mentioned in this letter 
is not pulled out of thin air, it is the 10 percent charge, 
or commission, or compensation that Colonel North approved 
bacJc in November of 1985, and for which you had begun to 
deduct as a paper matter some time shortly thereafter? 

A That is correct. 

Q Okay. Tell me why you felt entitled to receive the 
10 percent that you requested from Colonel North. 

A Well, I don't like the word "entitled." We had run 
what I thought were extreme risks with the al-Masoudi 
business. It had cost us personally, financially. It had 



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taken up a tremendous amount of professional time. It was, 
as any lawyer will tell you, or anybody who bills their time, 
opportunities lost to make money with paying clients, and our 
role with Colonel North seemed to be growing, and he seemed 
to be asking us to do more all the time. And there was no 
way for us to continue to do that unless we could start 
compensating ourselves, since we were the primary wage-earners 
for the rest of the employees at IBC . 

Q On what basis did you think Colonel North was 
authorized to approve your taking 10 percent of the funds? 

A Just by virtue of who he was. He seemed to be in 
control of the operation. 

Q And was it your understanding that once the funds 
for contra assistance left HEPL, that they basically were 
under the complete discretion, or control of Colonel North? 

A I viewed t.hem that way, yes. 

Q And you testified earlier this morning, that there 
was a time at which Mr. Channell told you that he was going 
to begin to deduct 20 percent from the contributions intended 
for contra assistance. 

Was this about the same time that you obtained 
Colonel North's approval to 10 percent as a charge for you 
and Mr. Gomez? 

A I don't think that's exactly what I said. I said I 
recall one time when Mr. Channell told me he was going to 



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deduct for his organization 20 percent from — and I think it 
was a Barbara Newington contribution of — I think the total 
was $1.2 million, or something. And — 

Q Was that the Newington contribution to which you 
testified on June 23rd? 

A Yeah. And the subsequent, too, I think. 

Q Other than the World Affairs Counsellors' payments, 
did you receive any other benefits from your activities 
involved in the contra-assistance network? 

A Financial benefits? 

Q Financial benefits. 

A Well, we were paid fees by Mr. Channell for our 
work on his programs, but, no. 

Q Do you have knowledge of anybody else, other than 
perhaps NEPL, as an entity, or Mr. Channell or Mr. Conrad, 
through NEPL, deriving any benefit from the provision of 
monetary assistance to the contras? 

A Well, I think all their salaries were paid by NEPL, 
so 'they, like any employee of an organization that undertakes 
a prograun, they receive salaries from that organization. 

Q Do you have any knowledge of anyone else receiving 
any financial benefit from this contra-assistance network? 

A Not other than what I've described to you in 
previous transactions from IC, Inc. I don't have anybody 
that comes readily to mind. 



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Q Okay. What was your understanding as to the 
intended purpose of the contra-assistance payments that were 
made through IBC, or through IC, Inc.? 

A The general purpose was for the provision of 
assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance. It became clear, 
early on in the relationship with Colonel North, that that 
meant a fairly diverse group of people receiving assistance. 
And in regards to the specific fundraising, we, at Mr. 
Channell's direction, or request, tried to identify specific 
items which people could raise, could give their money for. 
These people who gave large sums wanted to do it 
for something that was identifiable, and not for general 
financial assistance. 

Q And you testified Jaack on June 23rd, I believe, 
that Mr. Channell focused on certain lethal supplies, in many 
instances, as enticing donors to make contributions for 
contra assistance, is that correct? 

A I wouldn't accept the characterization, but I would 
say that, initially, our fundraising was targeted at general 
assistance. It began to incorporate things such as heavy- 
lifting systems, Maule aircraft. The later period, Mr. 
Channell began to raise money for specific weapons. 

Q And anti-aircraft missiles? 

A Anti-aircraft missiles, specifically. 

Q And there were instances, as you testified, back on 



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June 23rd, in which Colonel North supplied the information as 
to what the contras ' needs were with respect to some of 
these, both lethal and non-lethal supplies? 

A That's correct. 

Q And you also testified, back on June 23rd, that 
Colonel North participated in some of the solicitations 
intended for the purchase of these big-ticket items, both 
lethal and non-lethal supplies, is that correct? 

A Colonel North made presentations to people prior to 
a solicitation from Mr. Channell. That's correct. 

Q And part of his presentation, at times, included 
references to lethal supplies as well as non-lethal supplies? 

A In the single instance which I can remember, a 
discussion of lethal supplies, I don't know whether Colonel 
North was still in the room at the time, but I don't believe 
he was . 

Q Now to refresh your recollection, on June 23rd, you 
testified in response to my questions as follows: 

"Question. Did North describe the capability of 
the shoulder-held surface-to-air missile that was in the file 
folder to counteract the Hind helicopter?" 

"Answer. He did refer to surface-to-air missiles, 
but only generally. I don't think he specifically referred 
to the one in the folder. " 

"Question. When you said before that Colonel North 



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referred briefly to the final folder that you prepared, how 
did he refer to it?" 

"Answer. I don't remember the specific conversa- 
tion, but he was describing to Mrs. Newington how the Hind 
helicopters had changed the battlefield tactics of the 
resistance forces, breaking them into smaller units, not 
allowing them to have large collections of soldiers. I also 
had a copy of a New York Times piece on the Hind helicopter, 
and as I remember, he used that far more prominently than he 
used the folder." 

'Question. Did Mrs. Newington ask Colonel North if 
he knew where to obtain surface-to-air-missiles?" 

"Answer. As I recall, her specific question was, 
'And you know where to get these?', and he said, 'Yes, we 
know . ' " 

"Question. And did Colonel North quote any prices 
to Mrs . Newington? " 

"Answer. I don't recall." 

MR. DUDLEY: Is that supposed to be inconsistent 
with what he just said? 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Now does that refresh your recollection as to 
whether Colonel North ever participated in the solicitation 
of funds intended for the purchase of lethal supplies? 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to this line of inquiry, and 



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I don't think that's proper, either as refreshment of 
recollection, or his impeachment, but I'll let him answer the 
question . 

It seems to me that there is absolutely no inconsis- 
tency between that and what he just testified to. 

THE WITNESS: And I guess what I'd ask you to do is 
define your definition of "solicitation." 

MR. DUDLEY: I think that's where you're falling 
apart, is you're using the word differently. 

THE WITNESS: I Just need to know what you 
consider solicitation. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Did Colonel North, in your presence, ever describe 
to any contributor the contras ' needs for any particular 
lethal supplies? 

A In general terms, in conversation with Mrs. 
Newington, he described surface-to-air missiles as devices to 
shoot down Hind helicopters. « 

Q And we've just read your testimony from June 23rd 
in which you stated that he even told Mrs . Newington that he 
knew where to get these missiles. Is that correct? 

MR. DUDLEY: It is correct that you read that. Now 
are you asking him if his testimony is correct? 

MR. KAPLAN: Right. I mean if his testimony's 
changed, I certainly want to know about it. 



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THE WITNESS: No, no, it's not changed at all. In 
fact I think I may have also said to you that "we" was a 
euphemistic term that he used, as a convention in conversa- 
tions with people. And one got the sense, when he said that, 
that he was speaking more about the resistance than he was 
about himself. So "we" was a collegial term which he used. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q That wasn't my question. My question was, is, in 
your testimony on June 23rd you testified that Colonel North 
told Mrs. Newington that he knew where these missiles could 
be purchased. 

My question is, is that testimony still accurate 



today? 



said yes. 



MR. DUDLEY: And h« ' s answered that question. He 



MR. KAPLAN: All right. And that's a yes or no. 

MR. DUDLEY: He answered it. 

MR. KAPLAN! And if he could answer it, I would 
appreciate it. 

MR. DUDLEY: Answer it again. 

THE WITNESS: I'm not going to answer it yes or no 
because it's not a yes or no answer. I mean, he used the 
term yes, we know where to get them, and the "we" that he 
used then was a euphemistic term which he'd used on other 
occasions in my presence, and the sense that one had--and I'm 



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sure Mrs. Newington had from the conversation — was that he 
was speaking in a collegial .sense, and that he was as much 
talking about the resistance as he was about his own know- 
ledge. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q How can you testify as to what Mrs. Newington 's 
understanding was of what Colonel North told her? 

MR. DUDLEY: You've asked him questions all day 
about what people understood, and when you want him to get 
inside somebody's head, you're perfectly happy to ask it. 

MR. KAPLAN: And he consistently has refused to 
answer those questions . 

MR. DUDLEY: Well, he said from contact — 

MR. KAPLAN: On the few times that I have asked 
him, and with specific reference to his knowledge--! have not 
asked him what was in Mrs. Newington 's mind. I've asked him 
a simple question which is whether his testimony on June 23rd 
stands correct and true as of today. 

And the answer is a yes or no answer. That's what 
I'm asking for and that's what I would like from the witness. 

MR. DUDLEY: :And he has given you that answer. 

MR. KAPLAN: Would you please provide an answer to 
that question, yes or no. 

THE WITNESS: The answer to your question about my 
testimony of June twenty-- 



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MR. KAPLAN: Third. 
THE WITNESS: --third is yes. 
MR. KAPLAN: Thank you. 

I'm going to ask the reporter to mark as Deposition 
Exhibit 17. 

[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 17 . ] 
MR. KAPLAN: It is the cover page plus the first 
two pages of a report prepared by International Business 
Communications and submitted to the Committees by your 
counsel . 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I ask you to turn .to turn to page 3 of the exhibit. 
It's the last page. The aecond-to-last paragraph from the 
bottom states that some of the funds, as shown in the 
attached materials, were deposited to the account of Lake 
Resources, Inc. at Credit-Suisse Banque in Geneva, at the 
request of Lt. Col. Oliver L. North. 

And I'll skip the sentence and go down to the last 
sentence in that paragraph which reads: "However, we were 
assured by him at the time, that the funds were to be applied 
solely for humanitarian assistance." 

And my question is, did you believe that to be an 
accurate statement when this report was written in February 

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1987? 

A Yeah, but I've got to tell you that I rue the day I 
wrote those final five words. 

Q And can you tell me why you rue that day. 

A Because I should have said "were used for non- 
lethal assistance" and that would have been a far more 
accurate characterization. 

Q Didn't you have an understanding, either from 
Colonel North, or from Mr. Channell or Mr. Conrad, that at 
least some of the monies solicited were intended for the 
purchase of lethal supplies? 

A Well, specifically, Mrs. Newington's contribution 
was for surface-to-air missiles. Later, in that period of 
time, that she gave the final contribution, the helicopters 
seemed to be active, and there seemed to be little indication 
that there were missiles on the ground to counteract them. 

And the news accounts indicated that the number of 
missiles that the resistance had was still low. And I raised 
the issue to Colonel North, asking him in effect where were 
the missiles, and he said they needed missiles, but they 
needed these more. And he pulled out a brochure of radios, 
some kind of secure, encrypted radios of some sort, and told 
me that that money had been spent on radios . 

So with the missiles removed from the matrix, I 
felt quite comfortable with the characterization you see in 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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this because the other money was used for the heavy lifting 
and the air resupply operation. 

Q Now you testified this morning that you plead 
guilty to a one-count information, in part based on activities 
in which NEPL's tax-exempt status was used for the solicita- 
tion of money intended for the purchase of lethal supplies. 

And is that a fair characterization of your 
testimony this morning? 
A Yes. 

Q And am I mistaken in my belief that that charac- 
terization — well, your testimony is somehow, or another, 
inconsistent with the statement in this report about which we 
were just talking? 

MR. DUDLEY: I'm not going to let him answer a 
question like that. Come on. 

MR. KAPLAN « Are you going to instruct him not to 
answer? 

MR. DUDLEY: Yes. 

MR. KAPLAN: Can I ask you to state for the record 
the basis for your instruction. 

MR. DUDLEY: Because the question of whether you 
are correct in drawing inferences you want to draw about 
consistencies is not something that he's in a position to 
comment on. 

MR. KAPLAN: That's fine. I'll rephrase the 

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question. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Is your testimony this morning consistent, the 
statement in the report, that is. Deposition Exhibit 17, 
about which we've just been talking? 

A I don't think it's consistent or inconsistent. 
This was a report to Mr. Channell on expenditures. The 
information that you've asked me about and the guilty 
proceeding that took place were not about expenditures. They 
were about the means to raise the money for that effort, and 
there's a diametric difference between the two. 

And that I think you need to be clear on because 
this report is an attempt to codify for Mr. Channell the 
expenditures that we undertook. So that statement is about 
expenditures, and with the surface-to-air missiles removed 
from the matrix, there was nothing left, to my knowledge, of 
a lethal sort. 

Q I don't want to get into a semantic argument with 
you, but in looking at the statement to which you're referr- 
ing, I don't see the term "expenditures." What I see — and 
we'll quote it again — is "We were assured by him--that is. 
Colonel North — at the time, that the funds were to be applied 
solely for humanitarian assistance." That is, were to be 
applied. 

And what I'm asking is, is that consistent with 

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UNCLASSIFIE 



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your testimony this morning, that you plead guilty to a one- 
count information because of the fact that you considered 
NEPL's tax exempt status to have been misused with respect to 
solicitations intended for the purchase of lethal supplies. 

MR. DUDLEY: Despite your disclaimer, Mr. Kaplan, 
that question is absolutely nothing but argument. You can 
make that argument, if you want to make that argiiment . If you 
think they're inconsistent, fine. 

MR. KAPLAN: I asked a question, and I would like an 
answer to the question. 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to the question. 

MR. KAPLAN: All right. Could you please read the 
question back? 

MR. DUDLEY: It'll- take him a long time. 

MR. KAPLAN: That's fine. I've got plenty of time. 

REPORTER: "I don't want to get into a semantic 
argument with you, but in looking at the statement to which 
you.' re referring, I don't see the term expenditures. What I 
see — and I will quote it again: 'We were assured by him' — 
that is, Colonel North — 'at the time that the funds were to 
be applied solely for humanitarian assistance.' That is, 
'were to be applied' . 

"And what I'm asking is is that consistent with your 
testimony this morning? You plead guilty to a one-count 
information because of the fact that you considered NEPL's 

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tax exempt status to have been misused with respect to 
solicitations intended for the purchase of lethal supplies." 

MR. DUDLEY: I further object to the question on the 
grounds that having had it read back to me, I don't understand 
it. It's incomprehensible. And that it's been asked and 
answered. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'd press the question. 

MR. MILLER: I think I've told you two things that 
are a direct answer to your question, the first of which is I 
rue the day I wrote those five words . And the second is that 
again this was a report to Mr. Channell on expenditures, not 
a report on the solicitation of items. And with those two 
things, I think I have fully answered your question. 

MR. KAPLAN: And i-s it your testimony today that the 
statement which we have been focusing on is consistent with 
your guilty plea in May of this year? 

MR. DUDLEY: I'm not going to let him answer it a 
third time. That's about all the answer you're going to get. 

MR. KAPLAN: He hasn't answered it yet. You 
instructed him not to answer it the last time. 

MR. DUDLEY: I have not instructed him not to 
answer it. I now am instructing him not to answer it a third 
time. 

MR. KAPLAN: On what basis? I'd like your basis 
stated for the record. 

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MR. DUDLEY: That it is abusive and repetitive. 
MR. KAPLAN: I don't understand that to be a basis 
for an instruction not to answer. I would direct the witness 
to please answer the question. 

MR. DUDLEY: You don't have the power to direct him 
to do anything. 

MR. KAPLAN: Let's go off the record. 
BY Mr. KAPLAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, can you explain to me what IBC's role 
was in connection with various White House briefings that 
were set up by NEPL contributors or potential contributors 
throughout 1985 and 1986? 

A We would contact the appropriate office in the 
White House when Mr. Channel! determined that he wanted to 
give a briefing to his contributors. We would provide the 
basic background materials for the White House office that 
would then make the memorandum recommending the meeting. We 
provided suggested talking points, suggested schedules, 
proposed dates, and associated audio-visual materials. 

And we then worked with the NEPL organization to 
coordinate schedules for arrival, clearance into the building, 
escort to the room, and departing the building and reas- 
sembling the group in whatever the location was that Mr. 
Channell then had a subsequent meeting in. 

Q With whom in the White House or the administration 

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did you deal in coordinating these briefings on that side? 

A Primarily the Office of Public Liaison, Linda 
Chavez, Linas Kojelis, Pat Buchanan's office. And we kept 
Colonel North informed--I at least kept Colonel North 
infonned--of the briefings. And in some instances we asked 
specifically for him as a briefer. 

Q Who put you in touch with the Office of Public 
Liaison in the White House? 

A Nobody . 

Q Did you know Linda Chavez? 

A I had met her before, and I was known to the people 
in the White House Public Liaison Office. 

Q Did you know Mr. Kojelis? 

A Not before a meeting with him in preparation for 
one of these meetings . 

Q Did Colonel North help to facilitate or coordinate 
these White House briefings? 

A I think the first one he — I can't recall specif- 
ically, but I think the first one we asked directly of his 
office for a briefing. And then subsequently we just simply 
started doing it to the Office of Public Liaison. But I 
think the first request went directly to his office. 

Q Are you aware of memoranda that Colonel North would 
write to the Office of Public Liaison or White House counsel 
in connection with coordinating these briefings? 



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A I don't have a specific recollection of any 
documents like that right now. 

Q What about one-on-one meetings between contributors 
to NEPL and President Reagan? 

A Well, in regards to Mrs. Newington, we provided to 
the State Department specific items of Mrs. Newington 's past 
political efforts on behalf of the president on the issue, 
and that became ultimately a McFarlane memorandum to the 
scheduling office. And I think the officer in charge-- 
actually the officer on that memorandum was probably Colonel 
North. 

Q And do you recall having drafted a memorandum for 
Mr. McFarlane to send up the line requesting a presidential 
one-on-one meeting or photo -opportunity with Mrs. Newington? 

A I drafted a fair amount of the text of that 
memorandum and a subsequent listing of her contributions. 

Q What about other meetings that the president had 
one-on-one or photo opportunities with NEPL contributors? 
Did you have a role in coordinating those meetings or photo 
opportunities? 

A Well, my role was that — it was an IBC responsibility 
to make those things happen. 

Q And who at IBC was principally responsible to carry 
out that IBC responsibility? 

A Let's not get into another semantic argument. I 
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was principally responsible, since I am and was the lead on 
the client. I used in that endeavor David Fisner and Marty 
Artiano and their contacts within the White House offices. 

Q What about one-on-one meetings between NEPL 
contributors and Colonel North? Did you have a role in 
arranging those? 

A Yes. In fact, initially I was the only one 
responsible for arranging them until late '86, when Dan 
Conrad attempted to insert himself in the process and then 
also Mr. Channell. In both instances it was resisted by 
Colonel North, and there may be a couple of meetings which 
Mr. Channell then subsequently set up, but I'm not conversant 
with the details. 

Q In what period would that have been in which 
Channell or Conrad set up meetings directly with North for 
NEPL contributors? 

A It would have to be in late '86. 

Q Late '86. 

A Yeah. Okay. 

Q Is it your understanding that every one-on-one 
between Colonel North and NEPL contributors prior to late '86 
was arranged by you? 

A Yes. 

Q Just off the top of your head — I'm not asking you 
to give me an exhaustive list — what NEPL contributors do you 

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recall having met one-on-one with Colonel North? 

A Barbara Newington, Fred Sacher, David and Paula 
Wurm, Edmund Brandon, Dr. Marietta Keywitz, Barbara Christian 
Bullitt, Thomas Claggett, Patty Beck. That's all I can 
remember right now. 

Q Were you involved in arranging the one-on-one 
meeting that Colonel North had in March of 1986 with a 
William O'Boyle? 

A Yes. It was one, as I recall, of a series of 
meetings. And the initial meeting was one of that series, 
and I'm the one that arranged the series with Fawn on Colonel 
North's schedule. 

Q Did you tend to arrange one-on-one meetings with 
Colonel North following the briefings to which we have 
referred? 

A I'll accept the word "tend", because generally what 
would happen is that after Mr. Channell had the day's program 
and the evening dinner that it was associated with the 
Central American Freedom Program, he would have then identi- 
fied anywhere from one to six or seven people who wanted to 
participate in the assistance effort. And those were the 
individuals that were then scheduled to see Colonel North. 

There were, however, other meetings which had 
nothing to do with events here in Washington, more general 
Central American freedom program briefings, such as the 

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meeting with Mrs. Newington in Connecticut. 

Q You're talking about the weekend trip, okay. We'll 
get to that in a minute. 

Back on June 2 3rd, where you covered your knowledge 
of solicitations of Mr. Ramsey and Mrs. Newington, and then 
earlier today we covered a couple of additional notes about 
the Ramsey solicitation in June of '85, and the subsequent 
mailgram that went out to Mr. Channell. 

In connection with the Newington solicitation in 
November of 1985, about which you previously testified, I am 
going to ask the reporter to mark as Exhibit 18 a copy of a 
set of handwritten notes, and ask you if you can identify 
those notes? 

A Yes, they are ray handwritten notes. 

(Exhibit No. 18 was marked for 
identification. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
. Q Were these notes written in preparation for the 
solicitation of Mrs. Newington? 
A Yes. 

Q Can you explain the circumstances of the context in 
which these notes were written? 

A These were the precise things that Spitz Channell 
wanted Colonel North to say to Mrs. Newington. 

Q The amount that's listed at the top of the page is 



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$1.2, is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Was that the amount for which you understood Mrs . 
Newington was going to be solicited? 

A Yes. 

Q Was she in fact solicited for that amount? 

A I think at this point she had actually already been 
solicited to some degree, and I think she had made this 
commitment to Mr. Channell, or was about to make this 
commitment to Mr. Channell. 

(Witness and attorney consult.) 

THE WITNESS: There's a squiggle line down through 
the middle of the page that goes to November 1, January 1, 
February 1. And the reason . I said what 1 just said to you is 
I don't recall whether that was written at the same time 
these other items were written down. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I see. 

A And that may well be the reflection of a later 
conversation with Mr. Channell. 

Q So it could well be that the actual amount and the 
breakdown of $400 times three was written sometime after this 
solicitation to which you testified on June 23rd and referred 
to earlier today? 

A It's possible that those three items listed as 

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November 1, January 1, and February 1, each for $400,000, may 
have been written at a different time. 

Q When we say a different time, we're talking about a 
different time from the notes that are on the bottom half of 
the page? 

A Correct . 

I think you only used the word "possible, " and I 
want your record to reflect that. I'm really not that clear. 

MR. DUDLEY: I think you misspoke. You charac- 
terized that word as November 1, when I believe the word is 
"now. " 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Can you read into the record, Mr. Miller, the 
handwriting on the bottom o£ the page that starts with the 
word "green"? 

A It's "Green dash now working a year on this 
program. " 

Second item, "most secure person we know in the 
U.S." 

Third item, "We are asking you to take on a project 
that requires your kind of person." 

Q Now, do you recall the circumstances under the 
contact in which those notes were written? 

A Those were elements of a conversation that Mr. 
Channell hoped Colonel North would have with Mrs. Newington. 



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Q And this conversation between you and Channell took 
place prior to the Newington solicitation? 
A Correct. 

Q I take it the green refers to Colonel North? 
A Correct. 
Q Did you relay this proposed pitch, if you will, to 

North? 

A I don't recall relaying it to him, and I don't 

recall him using it. 

Q Is it possible that you relayed this pitch to North 
in a bit softened form? 

A That's possible. But again I don't have a specific 
recollection of a conversation with him. 

Q You testified a moment ago as to a weekend trip to 
Mrs. Newington' s. 

Do you recall when that trip took place? 

A Not specifically. I remember it was chilly, and I 
donit think there were a lot of leaves on the trees. That's 
about the best I can do to give you a specific time. I don't 
have it in my calendar. 

Q Who accompanied you on that trip? 

A Colonel North, his wife Betsy, his son, and his 
youngest daughter. 

Q How did you make the travel to Mrs. Newington 's in 

Connecticut? 



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A We went by chartered jet. 

Q Who paid for the jet? 

A I assumed it was Mrs. Newington or Mr. Channell, I 
don't know which. 

Q What was the purpose of that visit? 

A It was billed to both Colonel North and myself as a 
picnic at Mrs. Newington's, a chance for Colonel North to get 
away. He was, by everybody who saw him's account, fairly 
frazzled and exhausted, and it was billed as an opportunity 
for him to relax and be with his wife and children. 

Q Was Mrs. Newington solicited funds during that 
weekend? 

A Yes. 

Q By whom? 

A By Mr. Channell. 

Q Was that solicitation in Colonel North's presence? 

A It began somewhat in Colonel North's presence. 
_ Q Do you want to just describe it? 

A Yes . We had been there a day . I think we ' d 
finished — we had dinner the night before and slept the 
night and had breakfast the next morning. And Ollie was 
sitting out on the porch area by the pool, just kind of 
relaxing. And Spitz asked me to come with. and Barbara 
Newington over to the place where Colonel North was sitting. 
And he asked Colonel North to give Barbara a description of 



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the way things were going on the ground in Nicaragua. 

I got the feeling that he was somewhat disturbed by 
having to do that. He didn't really think that to be the 
purpose of his being there. But he agreed to do it, and 
described to her the general situation on the ground for the 
resistance fighters. 

And Spitz then asked Ollie what it is going to take 
for the next — I've forgotten how many months — how much 
does it cost a month to keep their operation going? And 
Ollie 's response was $2 million. And at that point he was 
beginning to be agitated, and he simply got up and kind of 
walked away. It was clear to me that he did not want to be 
put in the position he had just been put in. 

And then Mr. Channell asked Barbara Newington to 
please help. And she agreed. 

Q Tell me what you know about a solicitation of 
Nelson Bunker Hunt that occurred sometime in early September 

1985. 

A Mr. Channell had gotten a contribution from Mr. 
Hunt somewhere in the neighborhood of $475,000. But it was a 
little unusual. It had come as a 2 30 some thousand dollar 
contribution, and then a like amount as a loan. And the way 
it was left with Mr. Hunt was that that was a loan so Mr. 
Channell could use that money while he raised money from 
other people to repay it. 



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Mr. Channell didn't believe in spending money he 
didn't have in the bank, and he didn't believe in going into 
debt in fund raising so he refused to spend that money and he 
kept it in the bank. 

Then Mr. Channell asked that I call Colonel North 
and ask him to call Bunker Hunt, and to explain to him that 
the 22 hundred and 30 some thousand dollars had gotten where 
it was supposed to go, and that specifically that the 
supplies were getting to the Nicaraguan resistance. 

I think that Mr. Hunt was under the impression that 
he had given money for aerial supply operations. 

Q Were you aware that Colonel North had flown to 
Dallas to meet with Mr. Hunt sometime prior to Mr. Hunt's 
having committed the $475, OCM) as a part loan, part contribu- 
tion to NEPL7 

A I'm aware that Spitz Channell and Ollie North met 
with Mr. Hunt at a dinner in Dallas that was for resistance 
figures from around the world. I've forgotten who the actual 
sponsor was, but it was a political event which several 
hundred people went. 

Q Are you aware that at or around that time Channell 
solicited Hunt for the money that resulted in the 237.5 
contribution and the 237.5 loan? 

A Until you mentioned it just now, I had never put 
two and two together, but you're probably right. 



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Q I am going to show you a copy of what has already 
been marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 6. It's a note which 
you've testified before is dated 9/18/85, that is September 
18, 1985. 

The number two item on that note says "Green is to 
call Bunker. " 

To the best of your recollection, is that the phone 
call to which you were just referring? 
A Yes. 
Q And No. 4 on that note says "Reagan thank you." 

Does that refer to the contribution and loan that 
you understood Hunt to have made? 

A No. I think that's a thank you to Spitz Channell. 
Q Okay. No. 3 on the list, which is crossed out, 
says "Bunker with RR call or" — and I can't read the last — 
"call or visit," I think it says. 

Do you recall what the source of that note is and 
why it's crossed out? 

A These are all things that Mr. Channell wanted. He 
wanted Bunker to have a meeting with the President or call 
from the President. 

Q Did you take any action to get Mr. Hunt a meeting 
with the President or a call from the President? 

A On this specific request, I don't think I took any 
action because there's a line drawn through it. And that 



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usually means that I just — it's something out of hand or, 
for one reason or another, I just didn't do it. 

Q And then you testified that Nos . 7, 8 and 9 were 
probably written at some time different than Nos. 1 through 6 
on that note. 

A That's correct. 

Q And 7, 8 and 9 — 

A They're in different colored ink even on the 
original . 

Q And 7, 8 and 9 were written in connection with a 
phone conversation I believe that you were having with 
Colonel North, is that correct? 

A I don't think it was a phone conversation. It was 
a conversation nonetheless. - 

Q Was it a meeting, a face-to-face meeting? 

A It may have been, but it was a conversation. 

Q Okay. I believe it is also accurate to say that 

the. entries 7 and 8, one of which refers to weapons, and the 
other which refers to Maule aircraft, I believe, were, at 
least to your knowledge, items provided to you by North with 
his knowledge that those items likely would be used by 
Channell in fund raising for the contras? 

I didn't mean to confuse you there. I'm just 
trying to sum up your prior testimony without having to take 



you through it again. 



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A Well, let me give it to you just very short and 
sweet . 

Those were items that I discussed with Colonel 
North when Mr. Channell was trying to identify big ticket 
items for which he could raise funds. 

Q Colonel North understood that these items and these 
prices would be used by Channell in connection with his fund 
raising efforts on behalf of the contras, is that correct? 

A These were items in a discussion about that. I 
don't know that we ever came, — I know that the Maule became 
something which we raised money for. We never raised 415,000 
specifically for weapons, C4s and M17s. 

Q But, nonetheless, again I'm not trying to trick 
you. I 'think you testified -about this before. 

Nonetheless, when North provided you with these big 
ticket items, he understood the reason why he was giving you 
big ticket items was for Channell to use in fund raising? 
- A That's correct. 

Q Mr. Miller, do you recall — 

MR. DUDLEY: Can we go off the record a minute? 
MR. KAPLAN: Sure. 
(Brief discussion off the record.) 
MR. DUDLEY: With respect to the basis of the 
discussion off the record, we have agreed that, with respect 
to Deposition Exhibit 6, which is a document produced by us 



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in response to subpoena, our date stamp number is 004375, and 
the Committee's document identification number RM000971, that 
that portion of that page, after the first nine items, and 
beginning 9/20/85, is material that relates to clients of IBC 
other than anything — it had nothing to do with this 
investigation, and that we will supply the Committee with a 
redacted version of this document for purposes of attachment 
to the deposition and for purposes of the Committee's 
permanent records . And we had intended to redact that 
material at the time of production. 

MR. KAPLAN: And I will just state for the record 
that on behalf of the Senate Committee, and I am sure I speak 
for Mr. Fryman on behalf of the House Committee, we will make 
all best efforts to make sure that the properly redacted 
version does indeed replace the version with which we've been 
supplied to date. I only caution that we can't guarantee 
every single copy that might have been made in the process of 
the- months of investigation that have preceded after produc- 
tion of this document . 

MR. DUDLEY: I understand that, but I appreciate 
your willing to supply right now. 

BY MR. KAPLANS 
Q Mr. Miller, do you recall a time in January of 1986 
when Mr. Channell returned an intended loan^of $237,500 to 
Bunker Hunt? 



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A Actually I think Bunker Hunt forgave the loan. So, 
in effect, he made two contributions. 
Q That's your understanding? 
A Right. 
Q How did you arrive at that understanding? 

A I believe Mr. Channell told me so. 

Q And do you recall a phone conversation with Colonel 
North in early January in which you told him that Bunker Hunt 
promised $237,000? 

A I don't recall it, but it's entirely possible. I'm 
sure I reported the results of his phone call to him. 

Q This would have been several months after that 
phone call I take it? 

A I don't think any -of this moved very quickly. I 
think it took a fairly long period of time. 

Q Did you ever participate in obtaining a letter from 
the President to be sent to Mr. Hunt thanking him for his 
support without expressly mentioning the money contribution? 

A I believe Mr. Hunt was one of the individuals who 
got letters, general thank you letters for their participation 
in the Central American Freedom Program. And those names 
would have been provided to me by Mr. Channell. 

Q How would you go about obtaining letters or making 
sure the letters got sent from the President to the various 
NEPL contributors as. Channell requested? 



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A We would draft a potential letter, submit the names 
generally to Colonel North. As you were asking your question, 
I was trying to remember whether there was anybody else that 
we sent requests to when we may have sent requests to the 
President's special message list. There's an office that's 
associated with the White House that handles these types of 
letters of thank you to people. 

Q Was North generally the switching point for these 
letters from the President to the NEPL contributors? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you also, on a number of occasions, draft thank 
you letters from North to those same or other NEPL con- 
tributors? 

A Yes . 

Q Did Mr. Fischer or Mr. Artiano play a role in 
obtaining letters from the President to NEPL contributors? 

A I don't recall any specific instances when they did. 

Q So it was all done through you and through Colonel 
North, and then whatever else had to be done in order to have 
the President sign the letter and send it to a contributor? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you recall attending any NEPL dinners in which 
Mr. Channell showed to NEPL contributor or potential con- 
tributors letters he had received from President Reagan 
thanking him for his support? 



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Q Was that something that he generally did? 

A Yes. Not just at dinners but in solicitations. 

Q Is it fair to say that Channell used these letters 
for fund raising purposes? 

A I think it's legitimate to say that Channel used 
them as evidence of his past programs. They were all 
retrospective letters thanking him for past programs which he 
had funded and executed. 

Q Then he did use the letters at these dinners that 
often would follow the briefings and, as you just mentioned, 
in solicitations of particular individuals? 

A Well, what he would do is he would take the letters 
and make them part of a general package of information that 
the people would have at their seats . And the package would 
also contain documents about the Soviet-Cuban military 
buildup, of terrorism activity by the Nicaraguans, a map of 
Nicaragua. In one instance, we put a book from a New York 
Times reporter in there. 

But he would put these letters that were thank yous 
for past programs in the same packages. 

Q How did Channell come by these letters? Was it the 
same process by which you worked getting letters to NEPL 
contributors from the President? Would Channell make a 
request to you for a thank you letter from the President and 



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1 you would then convey that to North who would then work it up 

2 through the White House channels and eventually get the 

3 letter issued? 

4 A There were a couple of instances in which it was 

5 done that way. But often it was just because somebody at the 

6 White House properly triggered it, the Political Office saw 

7 the ads on television, or Channell was asked to come and 

8 participate in a meeting at the White House in which people 

9 were asked to help on the issue, that type of thing. 

10 Q Is it possible that North would have triggered 

11 thank you letters to Channell or to other individuals without 

12 your knowledge? 

13 A Sure. 

14 Q Tell me what you know about the solicitation of Mr. 

15 0' Boyle in late March of 1986. 

16 A I know very little about it. All I know is that he 

17 was brought down by Jane McLaughlin, and that his first 

18 contribution was $100,000. That's all I know. 

19 Q Is it possible that his first contribution was 

20 $130,000? 

21 A Possible. I think there's a commission paid to 

22 somebody in there. I'm not sure. 

2 3 Q Did you arrange the one on one meeting between 

24 0' Boyle and North or the series of meetings? 

HLif* ntromma CO.. inc. 

»7csimt.NE 25 A well, again, I think the first one was one of 

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several meetings that took place over the course of an 
evening and the next morning. I don't want to say evening or 
next morning. Anyway, after the next day after Channell's 
Central American Freedom Program briefing and dinner that 
evening, there were meetings with Colonel North one on one 
with people who wanted to provide assistance money. And he 
was one of them I think. 

Q When was that meeting arranged if you can recall? 

A I don't recall specifically. 

Q Was it prior to the briefing? 

A I don't think so. I think it was after the 
briefing. 

Q Do you think it was at the dinner after the 
briefing? 

A I think it was after the dinner after the briefing. 

Q Who asked you to arrange that meeting? 

A Channel 1. 

Q Channell did. 

Tell us what you know about the solicitation of 
Mrs. Garwood that occurred in April of 1986, if you know 
anything? 

A I don't know anything about it. When was it? 

Q April of 1986. 

A I'm not familiar with it. 

I can't say that I don't know anything about it. I 

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think Mr. Channell told me that Mrs. Newington, or Mrs. 
Garwood was giving a million something, I think it was a 
million and a half. And I recall that I got a phone call 
from him about it, but I don't recall much more than that. 

MR. MILLER: I was not there. I was here in 
Washington. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I think when we went off the record, we were in the 
middle of an answer that you were giving. I had asked you 
what your knowledge was of an April 1986 solicitation of Mrs. 
Garwood . 

A I think I had finished the answer. 

Q Do you recall anything about the solicitation of a 
Mr. C. Thomas Claggett? 

A Yes . I sat in the room with Colonel North and 
Spitz Channell and somebody else. I can't remember who the 
somebody else is. It may have been Chris Littledale or Chris 
Smith. And Colonel North described to them what was going on 
down in Nicaragua in terms of battlefield activities. I 
think he even got up and showed them a map. 

I don't think I stayed for the whole meeting. 
Either that, or according to the press reports, Mr. Claggett 
and I went to two different meetings. 

Q Did you arrange the meeting between Colonel North 
and Mr. Claggett? 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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A Yes. 

Q Were weapons discussed in your presence at that 
meeting? 

A I don't recall weapons being discussed at that 
meeting. 

Q Let's go back and clarify the record on one point. 
It seems that you and I have a different view semantically of 
the word solicitation and that you view solicitation in what 
may well be a proper fashion — the dictionary definition of 
when did someone ask for money. And I have been speaking of 
the term solicitation as sort the overall transaction without 
any particular purpose other than as a shorthand. 

I think that's what gave rise to the difference we 
had as to any testimony you -gave today was supportive of or 
possibly inconsistent with testimony you gave back on June 23 
with respect to the transaction by which Mrs . Newington 
eventually was solicited for funds for some lethal supplies. 
Is it fair to say that you stand by the testimony 
that I read to you from June 2 3? 
A Yes. 

Q And is it fair to say that Colonel North was 
present in the room and indeed participated in a discussion 
with Mrs. Newington about lethal supplies that were needed by 
the contras? 



Yes. 



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Q Just to make the record complete, as part of your 
standing by your testimony on June 23, in that testimony I 
believe you stated that you didn't recall specifically 
whether Colonel North was in the room when Channel 1 asked 
Mrs. Newington for money to provide those supplies. Is that 
correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q And I believe you further testified in that regard 
that if he was absent from the room, that would not have been 
unusual because it was his general practice to leave the room 
before Channell actually asked a contributor to pay over 
funds . 

A That's correct. 

Q Then we are in complete agreement as to what your 
testimony was then and is now. I apologize if my use of the 
term solicitation threw you off in any way. 

A No apology necessary. 

Q Thank you. 

Are you aware of any arms list or purchase list other 
than the big-ticket items list that you have described before 
that was used by Channell in his solicitation or fundraising 
from certain individuals? 

[Witness and attorney consult and brief recess] 
MR. DUDLEY: Could we just have the question again 
to make sure we got it dn-iljind? 



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<Pending question read back> 
MR. MILLER: Yes. 

MR. KAPLAN! Could you describe the list? 
MR. MILLER; I was shown by the independent counsel 
some time in May — early May — a list that Mr. Channel 1 had 
used to solicit John Ramsey for a contribution, and it was a 
Spanish-language list of captured armaments captured by the 
Nicaraguan resistance forces. And Mr. Channell in his letter 
to Mr. Ramsey held it out as a list provided to him by Adolf o 
Calero of weapons needs. 

That was the first time I saw it used in that 
context. I am quite familiar with the list that came up of 
captured articles. It is one way that the Nicaraguans report 
to the media and Congress and the administration about their 
level of battlefield success. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Exhibit 19 a copy of a handwritten document that was 
provided to us by your counsel . 

[The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
19.] 
BY MR. KAPALN: 
Q I ask you if you recognize that handwriting. 
A Yes. It's my handwriting. 



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107 C Stmt, NE 25 

Wuhin(n>o. O C 2000] 



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Q Do you recall the circumstances under which these 
notes were made? 

A They were to-do items. I think most of them are 
reflective — maybe all of them — but at least most of them are 
reflective of a conversation with Channell or Dan Conrad, and 
I'm not sure which one. 

Q You see item number one in this note which is dated 
February 5, 1986 reads, "Ollie's new purchase list". 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall what that notation refers to? 

A Yeah. I think that refers to the fact that Mr. 
Channell felt that he had fulfilled the big-ticket item list 
that had been provided to him and that there was a need for a 
new purchase list. 

Q Did you ever speak to North to provide you with a 
new purchase list? 

A I don't at the moment recall whether I had a 
spefific conversation with him, but I don't think we ever 
produced a new purchase list. 

Q Did North ever provide you items along the lines of 
the earlier exhibit we discussed for Channell 's use in 
fundraising? 

A Did Colonel North ever provide — 

Q Did he ever provide you with prices and items 
subsequent to this date that Channell couid,use in his 



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f undraising? 

A Not subsequent to. 

Q Just very quickly--numbers four and five refer to a 
dinner for Newington "... and Ollie at the Newington/RR 
meeting. " Do you know what those notes refer to? 

A Spitz wanted to have a dinner for Mrs. Newington 
honoring Mrs. Newington, and he wanted Colonel North to 
attend Mrs. Newington 's meeting with the president. 

Q Did that meeting come about? 

A Mrs. Newington had two meetings with the president. 

Q One, I take it, was in November of 1985. 

A Yes, I believe that's correct. 

Q And was the other one subsequent to this note? 

A I believe so, yes.- 

Q And was it set up pursuant to Channell's request as 
reflected by this note? 

A It was set up pursuant to Channell's request. I'm 
not sure if this note is reflective of that. It simply-- 
you're right. It's reflective of it. He had requested a 
meeting with Mrs. Newington and the president. 

Q Just to make sure I didn't miss anything, these 
notes — that is. Exhibit 19 — were taken from a conversation 
that you had with Channell. 

A Correct. 

Q What knowledge, if any, did you have of a project at 



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ucm nrommo co.. mc. 
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(!021 M6-6<i6 « 



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NEPL that was called the "toys project"? 

A Aside from the subsequent Jane McLaughlin charge 
and Channell public response to it, I don't have any other 
knowledge of it. 

Q So you learned about the toys account at the same 
time that the reading public learned about it--the "toys 
project" . 

A Yeah, but again I would think — yes. 

Q Did you learn about the "toys project" from the 
press? 

A I learned eUx>ut the use of the words "toys project" 
or "toys fund" or whatever from the press, but I was aware of 
a similar activity to it — an activity similar to it earlier. 
And I had heard the word before. 

Q So that during the time that you were engaged in 
contra .ssistance with NEPL and with Colonel North, you were 
aware that NEPL had a project which they designated funds 
intended for the purchase of weaponry or lethal supplies. Is 
that what you're saying? 

A No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I knew that 
there was an effort around Christmas of 1985 by Mr. Channell 
to raise money specifically for Christmas for the Nicaraguan 
freedom fighters' feunilies. 

Q Did you have any awareness that there was a project 
that was called "toys" within NEPL that was considered by 



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HLLfN MVOimNO CO , INC. 
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people at NEPL to be the project to which contributions 
intended for the purchase of lethal supplies would be 
designated? 

A No. 

Q When was the Institute for North-South Issues 
created? 

A I believe it was started in February of 1984. 

Q 1984? 

A I believe that's correct. 

Q Why was INSI created? 

A It was Frank's belief — Frank Gomez's belief — that 
there needed to be an organization that encouraged cultural 
and educational exchange between the northern and southern 
hemispheres in that you have- the wealthier nations — -the have 
and have-not nations, the third world and the developed world. 

Q When did Gomez leave the State Department? 

A Well, I don't know when his actual retirement date 
wasj but I think it was like the last week in January--formal 
retirement was then. 

Q Was INSI one of the first projects in which Gomez 
engaged when he left the State Department? 

A He set it up fairly soon after leaving the State 
Department, but it didn't even begin any activities until 
much later. 

Q Were you involved in the formation of INSI? 



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A I was the treasurer at the formation of INSI. 

Q Did you hold any other position in INSI at any 
other time during its existence? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Do you recall when INSI received a letter of 
determination of tax exempt status from the Internal Revenue 
Service? 

A All I recall is it took a very long time to receive 
it. There was some wrangling between our attorneys and the 
Service, and it seemed to all hinge on procedural matters and 
not substantive matters. But it ultimately was resolved, and 
we got--we actually got a more restrictive but a better 
status from a tax point of view than we expected originally. 

Q Whose idea was INSI? 

A Frank's. 

Q Do you recall a conversation with Colonel North on 
February 1, 1985 in which you and he discussed INSI? 

A February 1 of '85? 

Q Yes. 

A We probably had a discussion at that point. 

Q Was INSI an idea of Mr. Gomez's before he actually 
retired from the State Department? 

A Are you saying February of '84? 

Q No, February of '85. 

MR. DUDLEY: I don't think he's asking with 




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W7 C Sotn. N E 25 

Wuhmimi. DC 20002 
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reference to a date. 

MR. MILLER: I don't know. I think it was, but I'm 
not sure. I think you should ask him. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Do you recall the context in which you would have-- 
in which you did discuss with Colonel North INSI in early 
February of 1985? 

A My problem is that he pegged it to a specific date, 
and I can recall a couple of conversations with him about 
INSI, and I'm not sure exactly what the time frame was. 

Q Why don't you just tell me about those conversa- 
tions . 

A He or Bob Earl — I've forgotten which — called one 
time and asked for a list of- non-profit organizations 
associated with I think the quote was "our side of the 
issue" — supporting the president on Nicaragua. And I 
produced that list for them. 

And I would say that was some time prior to June of 
1985, because it only lists the American Conservative Trust 
and doesn't list NEPL. And INSI was on that list. 

I then also at another time was asked by Colonel 
North to get in touch with Roy Godson — that Godson had a 
contributor who wanted to make a contribution to the resis- 
tance. I went and met with Mr. Godson. 

He informed me that this individual did not want to 



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(202) V46-MM 



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give money to Spitz Channell . He used his name specifically. 
And that this individual was looking to provide money for 
political activities. 

I was left with the distinct impression that the 
individual was interested in supporting the political 
activities of the resistance. 

Q I'll get to that transaction in a moment. I want 
to stick with early 1985. 

Do you know why or were you told why Earl or North 
asked for this list of tax exempt organizations that were "on 
your side"? 

A Maybe, but I don't recall now what the reason was. 

Q Who is Jimmy Lyons? 

A I don't really know. I know he's a very wealthu 
individual who is associated with the conservative movement. 
That's about all I know about him. 

Q Did you have discussions with Colonel North in 
early 1985 in which money — in which the idea of conveying 
money for contra assistance through INSI was discussed? 

A In what time frame? 

Q Early 1985. 

A Early 1985. We may have, in reference to--we may 
have discussed it in reference to al-Masoudi. 

Q This would have been — I'm talking about a period 



prior to the al-Masoudi referral. 



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■Mum mm mittu co.. mc 
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Wuhinftoa. O C 20002 
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A I don't recall any specific conversations about 
using it as a conduit for funds to the Nicaraguan resistance. 
I remember a general impression that he had that it could be 
used, and I was required later to dissuade him on that. But 
I don't remember the specifics of how he came to understand 
that. 

Q Why was North told about INSI and its tax exempt 
status? Why did you bring that up in conversation with him? 
Why would you have brought that up in conversation with him? 

A I don't know. I mean, I don't remember the 
conversation, so I don't recall any elements of it. 

Q Do you know a Warren Hendricks? 

A Yes. 

Q Who is Warren Hendricks? 

A Warren Hendricks works for Clement Stone. 

Q Do you recall a conversation with Colonel North in 
which the names of Warren Hendricks and Clement Stone were 
discussed? 

A I talked to Warren Hendricks on one occasion. 
MR. DUDLEY: Don't think out loud; answer his 
question. 

MR. MILLER: It's specific to his question, but I 
haven't recalled it before right now. 

He was being asked for money, and he turned it 
down. He didn't even talk to Clement Stone about it. He — 



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m±n mp OHiiNO co.. mc. 
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Wuhuftoa. DC 20002 



Hendricks — turned it down. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q What was the purpose of the request for the money, 
if you recall? 

A I can't recall. 

Q Who asked him for the money? 

A I did. He may have talked to Warren Hendricks. 

Q Who is he? 

A North may have talked to him. I'm sorry. I'm 
recalling this for the first time, so it's sketchy, at best. 
It's a long process, as you're aware. 

Q What was the purpose of the money — contra assis- 
tance? 

A It had something to do with the Nicaraguan issue, 
as I recall. 

Q And you mentioned earlier that there was a time 
when you had to dissuade North from the idea that INSI would 
be used as part of a contra funding network. Do you want to 
tell us a bit about that? 

A After the second transaction through INSI, there 
were two — the first for $100,000, the second for $60,000. I 
told him that we simply wouldn't do it anymore. 

Q Again, back to the time frame in early 1985--was 
there a conversation with North that you recall in which the 
idea was discussed of using INSI to funnel money to the 

iumi toeicicn 



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■un iwp cwmu co.. mc 

M7 C Siicn. N E. 2 5 

WMkiairaa. DC. 20001 



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BNtmssro 



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contras? 

A Again, I don't have a specific recollection of a 
conversation. 

Q When Mr. Hendricks was asked for money by you, was 
he asked to contribute to XNSI? 

A I can't remember what the substance of the contribu- 
tion was. This may all be about the time of the Nicaraguan 
refugee fund dinner and when it was being put together, 
because it really got started in January. I think the 
meeting I attended was in late January, and it took until 
February or March for the dinner to come off. 

Q . Would money for the Nicaraguan refugee fund dinner 
have been solicited for contribution to INSI? 

A It shouldn't have been. 

Q You have mentioned earlier in your testimony a 
$100,000 contribution that was made to INSI from the Heritage 
Foundation. I'm going to ask the reporter to mark as 
Deposition Exhibit 20 a copy of what purports to be a letter 
to you from an Edwin J. Feulner, president of the Heritage 
Foundation, dated October 15, 1985. 

[The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 



20.] 



BY MR. KAPLAN: 



iiNP.! mm 



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WlCStnet.Ni 25 

Washmpon. C 20002 



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UNCUSSIHED 



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Q Do you recognize this letter? 

A Yes. 

Q Is this a letter which evidences the $100,000 
contribution from the Heritage Foundation to the INSI, about 
which you just testified? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us the circumstances under which this 
$100,000 was contributed to INSI? 

A Well, as I testified earlier, I was contacted by 
Colonel North, who asked me to get in touch with Roy Godson. 
I called Mr. Godson and went to see him in his office. He 
told me that he had a contributor that wanted to make a very 
large contribution. I suggested that he give him Mr. 
Channell's organization name- — allowed to make the contribution 
to Mr. Channell's organization. 

He told me that the individual was not interested in 
making a contribution to Spitz Channell's organization and 
thaJt he hoped there would be some other way the transaction 
could be handled. I told him I thought that was possible but 
that I would have to get back to him. 

I went back and discussed it with Frank Gomez. I told 
Frank I didn't think it was reasonable for the foundation to 
be risked without some compensation to the foundation for the 
risk associated with it. 

Q When you say the foundation, what are you referring 

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>07CSuCTt. NE 25 

Wuhmllon. D C 20002 



WNcussm 



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A Institute for North-South Issues. 

And Frank agreed. I then went to see Colonel North and 
told him that INSI could accept the contribution but that it 
would charge a 20-percent overhead charge for administering 
the grant. He agreed that that was acceptable. 

I went back to Mr. Godson and told him that his 
donor could make the contribution payable to the Institute for 
North-South Issues. I gave him the name and the address and 
so forth, and the next thing I got was a request for a 
proposal from the Heritage Foundation. 

Q Did you understand the request for a proposal to be 
connected to the Godson donor? 

A Yes. Not prior to- receiving it, however. 

Q How did you make the connection between the 
Heritage Foundation request for a proposal and the Godson 
offer of a contributor? 

A Same dollar amount, same time period, same terms of 
reference . 

Q Did you speak to Mr. Godson? 

A Probably, but I don't remember specifically after 
that. 

Q Did you know Mr. Godson before North referred you 



to him? 



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atjua mtromma CO.. inc. 

507 C Sum. N E 2 5 

Wuhul|loo. D C 20002 
(202) V«6-6M« 



Q And did you subsequently make a proposal to the 
Heritage Foundation? 

A I did. 

Q Under the name of INSI? 

A Correct. 

Q And did the Heritage Foundation subsequently 
approve your proposal? 

A Yes. 

Q That approval, I take it, resulted in the letter 
and contribution that's evidenced by Exhibit 20. 

A That's correct. 

Q What did INSI do with the $100,000 contribution? 

A It was transferred to IC, Inc. Well, $80,000 was 
transferred to IC, Inc.; $20-, 000 stayed in INSI. 

Q What ultimately happened to that $20,000? 

A Well, it went into the general account at IC, Inc. 
and was used for efforts that Colonel North — 

MR. DUDLEY: He asked about the $20,000. 
MR. MILLER: Oh, the $20,000. 
MR. KAPLAN: The $20,000. 

MR. MILLER: It was used for general administra- 
tion — salary for the executive director, paper, xeroxing, and 
all the other things associated with all of that. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Who was the executive director? 



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A At that point, Henry Quintero. 

Q And the $80,000, I take it, went into the IC, Inc. 
account and was disbursed pursuant to instructions by Colonel 
North. 

A Correct. 

MR. ICAPLAN: I'm going to ask that the reporter mark as 
Exhibit 21 a copy of what purports to be a Form 990 that was 
filed for the tax year 1985 by INSI. 

[The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
21.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I'm going to ask you, Mr. Miller, if you can 
identify this Form 990. 

A Yes. This is our Form 990 filed for the tax year 

1985. 

Q And is this Form 990 signed by you on the last page' 

A Yes, it is. 

Q It's signed by you in the capacity of treasurer? 

A Yes. 

Q I'm going to direct your attention to part 3. A. on 
page two of Exhibit 21 and ask you whether the $80,000 listed 
on the right-hand column of part 3. A. is the $80,000 that was 
transferred to IC, Inc. from INSI as a result of the $100,000 



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(202) M6'6666 



from the Heritage Foundation about which you just testified. 

A It is. 

Q And the description of that $80,000 reads that it 
came from the Heritage Foundation. It describes the Heritage 
Foundation, and then it states that "INSI . . ." — and I'm 
quoting-- "managed a grant by Heritage to produce a study on 
foundation information services in the Caribbean and Latin 
America." Is it fair to say that that's not an accurate 
description of what that $80,000 was used by INSI for? 

A It's fair to say that that's not a completely 
accurate characterization of what the $80,000 was used for. 

Q You testified a bit earlier this afternoon that you 
rue the day when you wrote about five or six words that were 
contained in your February 1987 report. Do you also rue the 
day that you wrote that description of what INSI did with 
that $80,0007 

MR. DUDLEY: I object. Whether he rues the day has 
no bearing. What's the point of a question like that other 
than sheer harassment? I'm hoping that Mr. Kaplan is going to 
respond to my inquiry. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm asking for an answer. 
MR. DUDLEY: I want to know what the predicate for 
the question is. What is the basis of a question — what is the 
relevance of a question about whether he rues day he wrote 
something, to this investigation or any other investigation; 



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MR. KAPLAN: I was just using the witness' phraseol- 



MR. DUDLEY: That's something he said about another 
thing, but that doesn't make it relevant to — 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Fine. I will withdraw the question, and I will ask 
whether you would describe what INSI did with the Heritage 
Foundation differently if you had it to do again today. 

A Yes. 

Q I really wasn't trying to harass you. I really 
kind of liked your turn of the phrase before. 

Was there--you testified before about a subsequent 
contribution of S60,000 that also came through Mr. Godson to 
INSI. 

A I believe it came through Mr. Godson, but it was 
certainly — I was made aware of it by either Mr. Godson or Mr. 
North, and frankly I can't recall which. 
- Q And was the $60,000 paid to INSI? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall who the contributor was in that 
instance? 

A It was in our check ledger as Macaleer, and I have 
asked the bank for the cancelled incoming check which they 
would have a copy of, and they informed us last week that 
they did not keep a copy of it. Or rather, they have lost a 

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copy of it. So I haven't been able to get my hands on it. 
You're not the only people in town that want it. 

Q Do you recall when that contribution was made? 

A It seems to me that it was right around the first 
of the year in 1986. 

Q Do you recall what INSI did with that contribution? 

A It transferred it immediately out to Lake Resources. 

Q Has INSI filed a Form 990 for 1986? 

A Yeah. 

Q Do you recall how that $60,000 contribution that 
was then sent on to Lake Resources was treated on that Form 
990? 

A I think. it's been amended since it. was filed, and I 
think the amendment simply s'tates that it was- money for the 
Nicaraguan resistance at the direction of Lt. Col. Oliver 
North. 

Q Has there been any attempt to amend the Form 990 
that's been marked as Exhibit 21? 

A No. 

Q If it doesn't impinge on an attorney-client 
communication, can you tell us why there's been no attempt at 
amending that Form 990? 

[Recess for witness and attorney to consult) 
MR. KAPLAN: Can we go back on the record? 
MR. MILLER: I don't know. There's really no 



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answer to your question. I hadn't thought about it, frankly. 
BY MK. KAPLAN: 
Q When did you first meet Adolf o Calero? 

A Some time in 1984. 

Q In what context did you meet Mr. Calero? 

A Frank set up a breakfast between himself, Adolf o 
Calero, and myself. 

Q What was the purpose of that breakfast? 

A To talk to Mr. Calero about the potential of IBC 
representing him in Washington. 

Q Was Mr. Calero referred to within IBC by the name 
"Spark Plug"? 

A Yes. 

Q Who coined that name? 

A Frank did. 

Q Do you recall the derivation of the code name? 

A Sure . 

Q Why don't you tell us about it. 

A Well, again, you try and make it something that has 
some relevance to his actual name, and his initials are AC, 
and AC is a spark plug, so that's why it was "Spark Plug". 

Q Was one of the contra leaders referred to as 
"Clutch"? 

A Yes. 

Q Who coined that name? 



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A Well, since Mr. Matamoros was part of Mr. Calero's 
organization, we just continued the automobile convention, 
and he became "Clutch". 

Q Mr. Matcimoros was "Clutch". 

A That's correct. I think I coined that one. 

Q As a result of the breakfast among you and Mr. 
Gomez and Mr. Calero, did a professional relationship arise 
between Mr. Calero and IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q what was the nature of that relationship? 

A We were the media relations and political consul- 
tants to the Nicaraguan Development Council, which again 
served the domestic interest of the resistance. 

Q Was Mr. Calero at that time head of the Nicaraguan 
Development Council? 

A I don't think you could use the word "head". He 
was certainly the principle beneficiary, as was his organiza- 
tion, of the Nicaraguan resistance. 

Q From whom did IBC receive payment in connection 
with those services? 

A Primarily from Mr. Calero, sometimes from Mr. 
Mateunoros . 

Q Was there an agreed-upon payment at the inception 
of the business relationship? 

A Yes. Initially we were jJaad ■$3 /OOO • a month, and 



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then it became clear that they couldn't follow through on the 
level of increasing activity that our efforts were producing 
without more administrative help. So we asked for $5,000 a 
month, and under that contract we were responsible for 
providing a full-time employee in their office, the admini- 
strative details, the computer handling their distributions, 
and so forth. 

Q When did that increase occur? 

A I can't recall specifically. 

Q Let's just get a few dates straight. When did the 
business relationship begin, to the best of your recollection? 

A I want to say September of '84. 

Q Do you have any recollection as to how many months 
into that relationship month-ly fees were raised and you put 
an employee full-time into their office? 

A Some time around the first of the year, I think. I 
think I've shortened this time frame. I think it was almost 
a year. I think it's about nine to ten months worth of 
activity. So it's probably somewhat earlier in the year than 
September. And the employee — maybe in September. 

Q In September of what year? 

A That would be September of '84. 

Q You testified a bit earlier about an exhibit which 
was marked as Exhibit No. 11, which is a letter of authoriza- 
tion from Mr. Calero to Mr. Channell authorizing Channell to 



290 



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engage in fundraising on behalf of the FDN. Did you or 
anyone at IBC or IBC itself receive a fee for obtaining that 
letter? 

I don't recall receiving a fee. 

From either Mr. Channell or anyone else? 

I don't recall receiving a fee to obtain that 



A 

Q 

A 
letter. 
Q 

9 Council? 
10 



How were you paid by the Nicaraguan Development 



co„ 



507CS«re«>. NE 25 

Viriuafioa. C 20002 
(202) m-6iU 



A Generally in traveller's checks, although a couple 
of times we received wire transfers. 

Q Were they traveller's checks that were given to you 
by Calero? 

A Yes . Sometimes we- got them from Matamoros , but I 
don't think very many times. 

Q Were they blank traveller's checks? 

A They were totally blank — just a bank name, and 
everything else on it was blank. 

Q Do you know why Calero didn't write the checks out 
to International Business Communications and sign them on the 
bottom? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever ask him why? 

A I never asked, but my sense was that most of their 
activities were cash activities, and a blank traveller's 

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check is as good as cash. And as a consequence, it was safer 
because it was not something that could be lost. 

Q Did Colonel North ever give you any blank trav- 
eller's checks? 

A I don't ever recall receiving traveller's checks 
from Colonel North. 

Q You mentioned a bit earlier today that Jonathan 
Miller at one time waved some traveller's check, I think, in 
front of Frank Gomez as a show of good faith or something to 
that effect. 

A It was in front of the Nicaraguan Meskito Indian 
Leader. Stedman Fogath or Diego Wycliff — I can't remember 
who it was . 

Q Did you have an understanding as to where Jonathan 
Miller got those traveller's checks? 

A He was in Colonel North's office suite at the time 
he did it. So I assumed they came from there. 

Q But you yourself don't recall ever having received 
from North any traveller's checks that were provided to him 
by Calero or anybody else? 

A I don't ever remember getting traveller's checks 
directly from Colonel North. There was one instance in a 
hotel room here in Washington where there was an exchange of 
traveller's checks between Dr. Calero and Colonel North, and 
we ultimately got some of those traveller's checks. That's 



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the only time which that happened, that I can recall. 

Q Can you describe that incident in a bit more detail 
so that we can have for the record a clear reflection of what 
took place in that hotel room? I guess you could start out 
by telling us approximately when that exchange took place. 

A Well, it was in the evening. The exact date I'm 
not sure of. It was at the Henley Park Hotel. I either went 
there with Colonel North or I met Colonel North there. We 
went to Mr. Calero's room. Mr. Calero had a large envelope 
of traveller's checks. Knowing what I now know about their 
volume, I'd say it had to be at least $20,000 in traveller's 
checks. They had a discussion about names that seemed 
familiar to the two of them, and I believe Mr. Calero gave 
the traveller's checks to Colonel North. 

And my reason for being there was that some of those 
checks were supposed to come to me. And the best recollection 
I have is that it was about the time I put Maritsa Herrera, 
the little girl, in Children's Hospital and took the money 
from my account to pay for that. It was $10,000 to Children's 
Hospital, and that may have been reimbursement for that. 

Q When was that? 

A It was right about the time of the Nicaraguan 
refugee fund dinner. In fact, she was there for the Nicar- 
aguan refugee fund dinner, and her wound had not been 
attended to. And she was about to lose her arm, and I 

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guaranteed her hospital stay to Children's Hospital. 
Q So that would have been in April of 1985. 
A That would be about — well, whenever the dinner was, 
so April, I guess. 

MR. KAPLAN: Off the record for a quick minute. 
MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Exhibit 22 a composite exhibit which is comprised of 
several traveller's checks dated variously from I believe 
March 20 through April 18. I have only made two copies of 
these volumes. 

[The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
.22.] 
MR. LEON: Can the record reflect a rough estimate 
of how many checks there are? How many pages would you 
approximate? 

MR. KAPLAN: If I'm not mistaken, there are 
approximately $5,000 worth of traveller's checks that are 
represented by this exhibit. 

MR. LEON: Are they all $100 checks? 
MR. KAPLAN: Yes, I believe so. 

Mr. Miller, you've seen these checks once before and 
actually, as I recall, had an opportunity to lunch with them 
and your counsel. I'm going to ask whether any of these 

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checks refresh your recollection as to whether or not you 
ever — as to whether you ever received any traveller's checks 
from North that had been provided to him by Calero or anyone 
else. 

MR. DUDLEY: Well, he's testified as to the 
incident at the hotel . 

MR. KAPLAN: Right. That's correct. Other than 
that. 

MR. MILLER: It doesn't refresh my recollection. 
Other than that, I can't remember an instance. 

MR. KAPLAN: To the best of your recollection — and 
you've been through these checks once before — would these 
checks represent other than possibly the hotel incident, 
checks that were given to you directly by Calero as payment 
for services performed on behalf of the Nicaraguan Development 
Council? 

MR. DUDLEY: Before he answers that question, I 
assume — but I would like your representation — that this is 
the same bundle of checks that he did look at. 

MR. KAPLAN: This is the same bundle of checks that 
was reviewed by Mr. Miller a couple of months ago. 

MR. MILLER: I would assume, since I got paid in 
traveller's checks and usually from a Latin American bank, 
that that's true. I never kept track of the traveller's 
checks after I cashed them 



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ONCUSSinED 



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BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Did Colonel North ever ask you to cash traveller's 
checks for him? 

A I don't ever recall being asked to cash traveller's 
checks . 

Q Did Mr. Calero or anyone else ever ask you to cash 
traveller's checks and return the money to some party other 
than yourself? 

A I don't recall doing that. 

Q So it's your testimony that any traveller's checks 
here or that you received from Mr. Calero or possibly from 
North during that hotel incident which you described before — 
checks that would have been in payment for seirvices performed 
by IBC on behalf of the Nicaraguan Development Council. 

A That's my recollection. 

MR. DUDLEY: Or reimbursement of hospital expenses. 

MR. KAPLAN: Right. Or reimbursement of hospital 
expenses . 

BT MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Do you ever — do you recall having given Mr. Robelo 
cash in front of a hotel in Washington? 

A Yes. I gave — I'm not sure whether it was cash or 
traveller's checks. And with the IRS right around the 
corner, I wish I knew the answer to that one right now. We 
paid his hotel bill one time, and I gave it to him in cash 

imfti iHAifi-. 



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Mum rvohtwo co.. hc. 
MT C SircR. N.e. 



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because they weren't accepting his MasterCard, as I recall. 
And it seems to me it was somewhere in the neighborhood of 
about $2,000 or $2,500 or something like that. 

Q Do you recall when that transaction took place? 

No. 

1985? 

I really don't recall when. 

Did North ask you to give Robelo the cash? 

Yes. 

What was the source of the funds to which you gave 



A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 

Robelo? 
A 



Would have been NEPL funds that Colonel North 
thought he had access to. 

Q So it would have been some time after July 1985. 

A Probably . 

Q And some time before December 1986. 

A Probably . 

MR. KAPLAN: Let's knock off for today. 

[Whereupon at 5:34 p.m., the deposition was concluded 



UNCUSSIFIED 



297 



U*l 




CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 
I, Terry Barham, the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my supervision; that said deposition transcript is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action. 




Terry 
and 



y Bbrhan^xfiota 
for' th/oistri 



(otary Public in 
District of Columbia 



)07 C ... N.I. 



My connnission expires Hay 15, 1989. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



298 




i'artUIly Dcd«MMi/R«feMed on - i^ Ji] ^r ^ r 
mdm provisions : i £.0. 12356 
-*)r O. Mb, Nalioncl iecuHty Coundl 



299 



DNCUlSSIfe 



294 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Friday, August 21, 1987. 

Washington, D.C. 

Deposition of RICHARD RODERICK MILLER taken on 

behalf of the Select Committees above cited, pursuant to 

notice, commencing at 8:40 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart 

Senate Office Building, before Terry Barham, a notary public 

in and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 

For the Senate Select Committee: 

JAMES B. KAPLAN, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 

For the House Select Committee: 

JOHN FRYMAN, Esq. 
SPENCER OLIVER, Esq. 
RICHARD J. LEON, Esq. 



■MLUM nromwta co.. nc 

507 C Sum. N E 
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(20''1 146-MM 



UNCLASSIHED 



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295 



UNcussro 



For the deponent: 



EARL C. DUDLEY, JR., Esq. 


" 


Nussbaum, Owen & Webster 




One Thomas Circle 




Washington, D. C. 20005 




CONTENTS 




Examination by counsel for 


Paqe 


Senate Select Committee 


296 


EXHIBITS 




Exhibits 


Marked 


23 


317 


24 


325 



UNCLASSIFIED 



miMK mromwn co^ mc 

M7 C SiKR. N E 
Vuhinimi. DC 20002 



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whereupon, 

RICHARD RODERICK MILLER 
the witness on the stand at time of adjournment, resumed the 
witness stand and, having previously been duly sworn, was 
further examined and further testified as follows: 
EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 
THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE (Continued) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, this is a continuation of the previous 
sessions of your deposition taken pursuant to immunity orders 
of the Senate and the House, which are Exhibits 1 and 4, 
respectively, in this deposition. I would simply remind you 
that you are still under oath. 

I just want to refer you back, for a moment, to 
what was marked late yesterday as Miller Deposition Exhibit 
Number 22. That is a composite exhibit of a stack of 
traveler's checks that were signed and cashed by you. 

I asked you yesterday, whether or not you were ever 
asked by anyone, or whether you cashed any of these checks 
for anyone other than yourself, and I believe you responded 
that you could not recall ever having done so. 

I simply want to ask you whether it refreshes your 
recollection on that response, or whether it changes that 
response at all, if I told you that we've determined that the 
checks that were cashed on March 28th are consecutive in 



302 



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number with checks that were cashed by Robert Owen and 
Jonathan Miller at the request of Colonel North? 

A No, that doesn't change my statement. 

Q So I take it that your testimony is that to the 
best of your recollection, all the checks here which you had 
an opportunity to review with counsel, back in June, and then 
again, briefly, yesterday, are checks that were attributable 
either to compensation paid to you by Mr. Calero on behalf of 
the Nicaraguan Development Council, or as part of a hotel 
incident to which you testified yesterday? 

A Or potentially, the reimbursement of the expenses 
for the little girl that I put in the hospital. 

Q Okay. Thank you. Staying with Mr. Calero for a 
moment, what kind of knowledge did you have back in 1985 and 
1986 of bank accounts that were controlled by Mr. Calero? 

A Hell, the ^^^^^^^^^^Haccounts were clearly Mr. 
Calero 's accounts, and I think I knew that from the beginning 
of my transfers to those accounts. 

. Q Who would have told you that thei 
accounts were Mr. Calero's controlled accounts? 

A Colonel North. 

Q Were there any other accounts that were under Mr. 
Calero's control about which you had some knowledge during 
1985 and 1986? 

A Well, checks were made out to the Nicaraguan 



t which you had some knov 

ONOUSSIFiED 



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Development Council in a couple of fund-raising situations. 
Where they were deposited, I'm not sure, to be honest with 
you. Those are the only ones I can remember. 
[Witness and attorney consult.] 

THE WITNESS: The Lake Resources account was to our 
understanding an account that was for the benefit of Mr. 
Calero. It was never clear, initially, who it was, but that 
was our understanding. 

BY MR. KAPLANt 
Q When you say it was for the benefit of Mr. Calero, 
was it your understanding that Mr. Calero controlled that 
account? 

A I don't think I was ever told that he controlled 
it. It was just clear that that — whoever that Lake Resources 
organization was, they were actively involved in the support. 
And the items that were being asked that we fund-raise for, 
and those vo transferred money for, were for things that 
would have been virtually impossible for him to miss. The 
heavy lifting system, aircraft. In the case of the surface- 
to-air missiles, so — that ultimately became radios, but they 
ended up on the ground, so — 

Q Now over time, you developed a fairly close 
relationship with Mr. Calero, it's fair to say, is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 



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LASSIFIED 



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Q Did you ever discuss the Lake Resources account 
with Mr. Calero? 

A Yes, in December of 1986. 

Q Any time before that, do you recall a discussion 
with Mr. Calero about Lake Resources? 

A No. 

Q None at all? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Calero disbursements 
from the IC, Inc. account to Lake Resources, that were made 
at the direction of Colonel North? 

A Only once. Colonel North told me that Mr. Calero 
was in desperate need of money for a food bill, and asked me 
to go to his hotel, at the Connecticut Club, and to tell him 
that I had a donor from outside the United States, and that 
individual wanted to give him — I believe it was $150,000 — and 
that I should ask him for an account. 

Of course the account would be exactly the same 
account that had been given before, but apparently Mr. Calero 
was unaware that I was the individual transferring the money 
into his account. So I did. I went to the hotel. He 
immediately asked me for $250,000, but I told him there was 
150 available, and he wrote the account number down for me, 
and it was identical to what I had used for previous transac- 
tions. And I transferred money into that account. 



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Mr. LEON: Let me just ask one follow-up. when you 
say Mr. Miller, that the Lake Resources account to your 
understanding was for Mr. Calero, you don't mean for him 
personally, but rather, for the contras? 

THE WITNESS: That's correct, because it was used 
to buy things like heavy-lifting and Maule aircraft, and 
radios, and surface-to-air missiles, and so forth. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q When you say that the account number that Calero 
wrote down for you was identical to the account that you had 
previously used, could you just clarify for the record which 
account niomber you're talking about. 

an ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Haccoun 
ii^^^^^^^^^^^^B 

Q Do you recall when Colonel North first told you 
about thisB^^^H^^^^Haccount, and that was under Mr. 
Calero 's control? 

A Not offhand, but he would have done so immediately, 
prior to the first transaction ^C'^^^^^^^^^H, so whatever 

Q Do you recall Having instr-icted Mr. Channell to 

check to^^^^^^^^^^^^that was being given by 

Channell to Mr. Calero, for his behalf, back in June of 1985? ' 

A Yes. At one fund-raiser in the Hay-Adams, Mr. ! 
Channell asked who the check should be made out to, and Mr. j 



306 



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Calero said — I went and asked Mr. Calero and he said^^^m 
And then, I think it was the next morning, when I 
told Colonel North that it had been made out ^°^^^^^ 
^^^^^|. He said that that was wrong, and I believe it was 
changed to the Nicaraguan Development Council. 

Q Okay. I'm going to march, briefly, with the State 
Department contracts that were held by IBC. Hy understanding 
is that Mr. Fryman is going to cover them in more depth at 
the next session. 

I understand that IBC had, over time, from 1984 
until September of 1986, I believe you testified yesterday a 
number of consecutive State Department contracts, is that 
correct? 

A Correct. Yes. 

Q To your knowledge, were those contracts obtained 
from the State Depeurtment? 

A Well, initially, Mr. Gomez's expertise was sought 
out' by the office that had newly been created by Ambassador 
Retch. Frank is 20 years in the Foreign Service. Most of 
it's been in Central and South America. He's fluent in 
Spanish, Portuguese and French. Speaks some Italian. And is 
extremely well known by people in Central America, senior 



officials, journalists. In fact was the originator of one of ' 

'i*!iSS!FIEIl 

So, that was exactly the type of individual that | 



the journals and associations down there < <i|'''>S 



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the State Department Office of Public Liaison needed, or, 
public diplomacy needed to begin their mission. 

Q When was the first such contract let to Mr. Gomez? 

A I think it was signed on February 22nd, 1984. 

Q So that was shortly after he retired from the State 
Department? 

A That's correct. 

Q Were those contracts, or was that contract, that 
same contract, renewed at some point in time? 

A It was. It was actually a purchase order contract, 
and it was reissued, I believe two more times. 

Q To Mr. Gomez? 

A To Mr. Gomez. That's right. 

Q Do you recall what the average length of these 
contracts was? 

A It seems to me they were about 3 months. 

Q Was there a time when the contracts were let to IBC 
instead of to Mr. Gomez? 

- A Well, when Mr. Gomez and I began to form a partner- 
ship in '85, he requested that the contracts be made to 
himself at International Business Communications, and as we 
began to form the partnership he simply brought that in as 
part of — it was already a consulting contact for him and he 
brought it in as part of the partnership business. 

Q Was IBC then listed as the contractor on the 



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contract itself? 

A In those three contracts, no. In the fourth 
contract I believe yes, but again, using his name and 
International Business Communications. 

Q How many contracts were there, all-told? 

A I believe total, there were six. Seven. I'm 
sorry. Seven, including the INSI contract. 

Q How many of these contracts were identical in terms 
of the duties performed by Mr. Gomez and IBC? 

A That's not the right question. The elements that 
were in the first three contracts were also in the fourth 
contract and in the fifth contract. The fifth contract, the 
larger of all of them, a 200 and some-thousand dollar 
contract, had in it an additional section for a distribution 
system. 

So the elements did not change significantly from 
the first contract to the last contract, except for the 
increase to incorporate a distribution system. 

. Q Okay. What was the sum total of these seven 
contracts? 

A About 440-some thousand dollars. 



Q All right. You mentioned that one of the contracts 

ufr' 

was over $200,000? IK 

A Yeah. We bid it at 242 — or 342, and they told us 



mentioned that one of 

NCLASSIRED 



it was going to cost — I'm sorry. We bid it at 242. They 



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told us it was going to cost 282, and we came in at 276, I 
believe. 

Q Were the other contracts reasonably equal in amount? 
A I think they were almost exactly equal. The fourth 
contract was nothing other than a longer time period. The 
previous three contracts had all been purchase orders, so 
they were for short periods of time. 

Q So they were in the range of 40 to $50,000 each? 
A I think the first three contracts were slightly 
under $10,000 each, and I think the third contract— the 
fourth contract was about $90,000. 

Q what duties did Mr. Gomez, and others at IBC, 
including ourself, perform under these contracts? 

A Let me see if I can do it again, off the top of my 
head. We provided escort services for exiles, refugees, 
atrocity victims. We provided translation services for the 
same people. In some cases we provided security for them. 

We provided simultaneous interpretation. We 
provided housing, transportation. We provided media contact 
for these same people. We provided civic-leader contact for 
these people. We sought to put the 
organizations in the United States.] 

We did debrief ings for them. We set up interviews 
and press conferences. We arranged television appearances 
For the office in general we provided text for op-eds , 



ims»o 



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editorials, letters to the editor, articles, translations of 
publications outside the United States that were then 
distributed by the office. 

We helped arrange media schedules, made strategic 
planning suggestions for development of public expressions of 
policy. We helped draft reports on public-affairs strategies. 
We helped edit texts for speeches. In the distribution area 
we created a computerized database for the use of the office 
in the distribution of its publications. 

They could be segmented into multiple selection 
processes so that they could be distributed by subject, by 
geographic location, by a whole host of demographics. We set 
up an internal control system to improve the procedures 
associated with the production and ultimate distribution of 
publications . 

We provided staff on site at State Department to 
handle that task. We did the actual physical distribution of 
hundreds of thousands of pages and single documents. I 
remember one distribution being 70,000 copies. We provided 
the delivery of those to the Federal agencies that were 
involved in the matter here in Washington. We provided the 
transportation and the storage for those documents. And we 
also provided a training course for the information office of 
the Salvadoran government. 



iCUSSIHED 



And we provided talking points for, or suggested 



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talking points for senior administration officials. That's 
all I can remember, off the top of my head. 

Q Is it fair to say that in your work under these 
contracts you were brought in close and regular contact with 
Mr. Calero, Alfonso Robelo and Arturo Cruz? 
A No. 

Q Did you coordinate any of their travel or visits to 
the United States? 
A Yes. 

Q Was that a service that you performed under these 
contracts? Or was that a service that you performed in 
connection with your duties that you described yesterday on 
behalf of the Nicaraguan Development Council? 

A We considered it duties on behalf of the Nicaraguan 
Development Council. Initially, also, our work with the Gulf 
and Caribbean Foundation. 

Q So is it fair to say, then, that at least your work 
on behalf of the Nicaraguan Development Council brought you 
into fairly close and regular contact with Mr. Calero, Mr. 
Robelo and Mr. Cruz? 
A Yes. 
Q Did North ever contact the State Department on 



I EC's behalf, to your knowledge? ;^ Sji 

ui 

cifj 



CLASSIFIED 



A I don't recall the specific instance but I've read 
the press reports on it, and I have a minor memory of him 



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doing so. 

Q And do you recall when he made that contact? 

A I don't recall when but I recall why. 

Q Could you tell us why. 

A Yeah. We had billed the State Department for three 
months' worth of work, and I think it was already 30 days 
past the time that that should have been paid under the Prompt 
Payment Act. And we were just not that big a company, it was 
a very serious time for us, and we needed the money, and he 
made an appeal to somebody at the State Department. I've 
forgotten exactly who it was. 

Q Why did you approach North to make the appeal on 
your behalf? 

A I'm not sure I approached him on it. I think I 
just may have bellyached in his presence and he acted. 

Q He acted? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he tell you that he had contacted someone at 
State on your behalf? 

A I don't remember whether , he told he was going to, 
or whether he told me he did. 



But one of t 



Yeah. 



ilASSIFIED 



Q Did his contacts result in prompt payment? 

A I guess the Government would have considered it 



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prompt payment. I'm not sure it came much quicker than it 
would have been otherwise. 

Q Do you know who he contacted at the State Depart- 
ment? 

A I want to say Frank Gardner, but I'm not sure. It 
was the administrative — it was somebody involved in the 
adminstration of the Office of Public Diplomacy. 

Q Was that one of Mr. Gardner's duties? 

A Yes. 

Q Who were your principal contacts at the State 
Department under these contracts? 

A Well, it changed as the staff changed. Initially, 
it was Otto Reich and Jonathan Miller, John Blacken, John 
Scafe. Those were the people we answered to, initially. And 
also, we worked with Mary Catherine English, Jake Jacobowitz, 
Colonel Larry Tracy, Colonel Mark Richards, Dan Fiske, Bob 
Kegan. Those are all the names I can remember, off the top 
of my head. 

- Q I'm going to move off the State Department con- 
tracts. As I said, those will be covered in more depth, I 
understand, at your next session. 

When did you first meet Jonathan Miller? 

A I met Jonathan in the campaign in 1980. 

Q What kind of contact did you have with him after 
the campaign? 






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A We both ended up at AID, myself In the Public 
Affairs Office, and Jonathan in the Legislative Affairs 
Office. 

Q Did you and he develop a friendship? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever discuss with him — and I think I asked 
you this yesterday, but if I did, you can just give me the 
same answer. Did you ever discuss with him your contra- 
funding efforts with NBPL and Colonel North? 

A I don't recall ever discussing it. 

Q All right. Do you recall having had some meetings 
with Jonathan Miller and Colonel North? 

A I'm sure I have but I don't — I recall one meeting 
in the situation room, that I think Jonathan was at. 

Q What types of substance — if it can be broken down 
that way — was likely discussed in meetings that you would 
have with both Mr. Miller and Colonel North? 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to the hypothetical way in 
which that question was framed. Tou know, what questions 
were likely discussed, if there were meetings. 

I think you should establish whether there were 
meetings . 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm sorry. I_th2Waht I had established 
that before. 

THE WITNESS: Would it be helpful for me to 





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remember each meeting? i would go as far as my memory goes 
on each one of them. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Okay. Why don't I help you out a little. Records 
that the Committees have obtained in the course of their 
investigation show that you and Colonel North, and Mr. Miller 
had meetings on the following dates, and this may help you 
place yourself, and maybe recall some of the substance of 
those meetings . 

September 10, 1984 with Mr. Gomez also in atten- 
dance . 

January 16, 1985, with Mr. Gomez also in attendance. 

MR. DUDLEY: What was that second one? I'm sorry. 

MR. KAPLAN: January 16, 1985. 

It is unclear, but perhaps meetings with a group 
called Citizens for America on January 25 and January 28 of 
1985. 

February 27, 1985 with Mr. Gomez and Mr. Owen also 
in attendance. 

June 5, 1985 with Mr. Gomez and a person named 
Otto, who I presume is Otto Reich. 

THE WITNESS: June 10? 

MR. KAPLAN: June 5, 1985. I believe that's the 
sum total . 




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OllASSinED 



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BY MR. KAPLAN! 

Q So all those meetings vrould have taken place between 
September of 1984 and June of 1984, according to our records, 
I certainly welcome any further recollection you have beyond 
what we have on paper. I also will note for the record, that 
the September '84 meeting is not clustered with the rest. It 
seems to sort of hang out by itself. 

Does that refresh your recollection at all as to 
the substance of the meetings that you did have with Colonel 
North, Mr. Miller, and, usually, others? 

A I can probably identify three of these, and I'll 
work backwards, chronologically. The June 5 meeting with 
Otto Reich, I believe was at lunch. The third meeting I can 
recall is a Citizens for America meeting, which I believe only 
took place on one of those dates. I think you probably have 
a vintage North calendar entry that got changed several 
times, and that in reality it took place at some, one of those 
but not both of those. 

~ I was invited to a meeting in the situation room 

that was attended by — was hosted by Colonel North and was 
attended by Otto Reich and Jonathan Hiller, Frank Gomez and 
myself. Lew Lehrman, Jack Abramoff, and two other officials 
of the Citizens for America whose_neUiiea. I cannot remember 
right now. ll 

Was thaY a meeting in which I believe that your 




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counsel have produced to us a document listing the attendees 
at that meeting with phone numbers on the righthand column? 
A Yea. 
Q Okay. 

A And Lehrman had asked for the meeting. His 
intention was trying to create political support for the 
President's policy. Colonel North introduced us as represen- 
tatives of Mr. Calero. We sat through a presentation by Mr. 
Lehrman of a fairly weighty and seemed to be a well-thought- 
out program of grassroots education, and Colonel North asked 
what the Administration could do to help, and Mr. Lehrman 
said that he needed to have $250,000. 

So everybody's immediate reaction, unspoken, was 
the same, and that was that that was his business to raise 
the money and not ours, and that we thought we were being 
offered help and not asked for it, in terms of funding. 

So I think the idea basically exhausted itself and 
wenl no further. 
- Q Okay . 

A I remember — and I can't tie them to these other two 
dates, January, or SeptembenlO 1984, or February 27th — but I 
remember being called over to North's office — Frank and I 
both, by Jonathan Miller, and that Jonathan was housed there 
at the time. 




And the UNO leaders ITaS^coflS^to Washington, and 



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^ 
^ 

^ 

^ 



Colonel North asked that we get for them media, and we used 
his telephone, and then ultimately, went back to the office 
and got things like Good Morning America , the Today show, 
Nightline , and Washington Post . 

Q Do you recall when this incident took place? 

MR. DUDLEY: Will you excuse me just a minute. 
[Witness and attorney consult.] 

MR. DUDLEY: I'm sorry to interrupt your flow, but 
I wanted to get something before it got too far past. 
MR. KAPLAN: It's okay. I appreciate that. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Do you recall when the call from Jonathan Miller 
came and this incident took place? 

A It would have been — no, I don't recall the exact 
date. It may be the February meeting — I'm not sure--but it 
would have been just about the time of the President's first 
request for aid. 

Q How did North, to your knowledge, first become 
aware of your association with Mr. Calero? 

A I don't know. I've never remembered our first 
meeting, so I can't even tell you why we-- 

Q Okay. When did you first meet Rob Owen? 

A Again, I'm not sure when my first meeting with Rob 
was. The earliest recollection I have of Rob is he accom- 
panied a group of three refugees to our offices, along with 



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John Hall, and we were in our offices at 1607 fiew Hampshire. 
So it would have had to have been some time between February 
of 1984 and January of 1985. 

Q Who sent Mr. Owen to your offices with the refugees? 
A I don't know. We didn't know he was coming with the 
refugees. I think we expected the refugees, and Mr. Owen and 
Mr. Hall showed up with them, along with two other in- 
dividuals . 

Q Can you briefly describe the substance of your 
relationship with Mr. Owen over time, starting with that 
first meeting with the refugees, and continuing on through the 
end of this year? 

A Rob was a personal friend of mine. We have had a 
minimal amount of professional contact. I reviewed a public- 
affairs strategy he produced one time. He has provided me 
with background information, that he has secured a lot of 
this down in Nicaragua and^^^^^^^B That's about the extent 
of Our professional relationship. 

- Q I want to go back to a question I forgot a moment 
ago. When Mr. Calero told you in December 1986 who con- 
trolled Lake Resources, or what Lake Resources was — 
A You mean Lake Resources or 
Q Maybe I misunderstood, then, and it's worth 
clarifying for the record. I thought I had asked you when did 
you discover that what the Lake Resources account was. 



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A No, that wasn't your previous question, but I'd be 
happy to answer it. 

Q Okay. 

A When Albert Hakim testified before the Congress, my 
first inkling that it was more than Just an account to assist 
the contras came when I read the front-page article that 
quoted H. Ross Perot as having been asked to send $2 million 
there. 

Q That would have been in December of 1986? 

A I believe it was December 6. It was a revelation. 

Q Was your earlier testimony about a discussion with 
Mr. Calero in December 1986 relating to his control of^^^^ 



A Correct. 

Q But I take it, as you testified, that you had some 
inkling, some time prior to December 1986, that Mr. Calero 
knew about that account, if not controlled it? 
A No, that's not what — 
- Q Is that not correct? 

A No, that's not what I said. 

MR. DUDLEY: I think you'd better clarify that. 

" "IMSliHl"""" ■'" 

THE WITNESS: I was always under the impression 
that the Lake Resources account was some form of organization 



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that benefited the resistance, because we raised items which 
then appeared in newspaper articles, and so forth, down 
there. They also would have been impossible for Mr. Calero 
to miss. Big airplanes, heavy-lifting systems, Maule 
aircraft, shoulder-launched missiles. 

So I always assximed that he was aware of the Lake 
Resources account. It wasn't until December of this past 
year, that I realized that he knew very little about the Lake 
Resources account, and that was only after discussing it with 
him directly. 

BY MR. KAPLAM: 

Q Let's go back to Mr. Owen. Did you ever discuss 
with Mr. Owen your role in contra-assistance funding NEPL? 

A I don't recall discussing it with Rob, no. 

Q Did Mr. Owen ever discuss with you his role in a 
contra-resupply network, or a contra-resupply operation? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q Did Colonel North ever discuss with you Mr. Owen's 
rol« in the contra-resupply operation? 

A Not in a resupply operation per se, but as a 
courier and a carrier of messages from him to political 
leaders. 

Q What did you| Iff^Sf'^^f^OMt^^Ij^ ^Qjj^ij^'^^relationship with 
Colonel North? 

A I thought that Mr. Owen was employed almost solely 




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ONCIASSIFIED 



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by Colonel North. 

Q Were you aware that Owen had been at least in part 
placed by North at the Nicaraguan humanitarian aid office? 
A Not until I read it in the newspaper. 

MR. KAPLAN: I am going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Deposition Exhibit Number 23 a copy of a document provided 
by your counsel, which are handwritten notes. 

[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 2 3. ] 
MR. KAPLAN: The top of the page says "IBC expendi- 
tures for Green. " 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I first want to ask you if you recognize those 
notes . 

A Yes. They're mine. 

Q Does "expenditures for Green" refer to expenditures 
by IBC for Colonel North, or at his request? 
" A At his request, or for him, right. 

Q All right. The date, 1985, refers to the year in 
which these expenditures _w^rjjn|d^? 
A Correct. 

Q The very first entry I believe says, "S-lS-'that 
is, June 19--and it says "Owen trip expenses." Then the 
corresponding number is $2200. Were you aware at the time 



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that Colonel North was asking you to make certain distrurse- 
ments, that some of these disbursements were ta pay for Mr. 
Owen's travel? 

A Yes. In fact the first two items are actually 
interconnected. The $2200 I believe was cash, and the 3500 I 



6 l| believe was traveler's checks for him to take with him. 

i| 

7 I Q Who provided you with the traveler's checks for Mr. 

i! 

8 1 Owen to take with him? 



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A This came out of our bank account. In other words, 
we wrote a check to our bank and got traveler checks, and 
gave them to .Mr. Owen. 

Q I see. Does "NDC" stand for Nicaraguan Development 
Council? 

A Yes. 

Q If they were traveler's checks taken out of your 
bank account, why would the notation says "NDC traveler's 
checks?" 

A At that point I can only assume that it was because 
I thought Rob was working primarily with Calero's orga.-.iza- 
tion, and I would have put NDC down. 

Q Is it possible that at that time you gave to Mr. 
Owen the blank traveler's checks' that had been given to you 
by Mr. Calero irt^iDfW^ i^A P^^t iMViF^^ that you had 
24 performed? 

A I don't think so because I think there's a check 



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yUGUSSIFIED 



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that corresponds to this in our check register, and I believe 
that was--I mean, I think "NDC traveler's checks" is just a 
mental note to myself as is "Wire to Lake" or one of the 
others . 

Q Move down two entries from there to a September 12th 
entry which I believe says "Beacon Creative Writing, $10,000." 
Can you explain to us, briefly, what that disbursement 
represented. 

A Beacon was the name that I chose for Arturo Cruz, 
Sr. and — 

Q He wasn't a "car part?" 

A No. He was a great deal of light. He was an 
"illuminating force" so we called him Beacon. 

Q But you could have called him Headlight. 

A That's true. He was to write an article and that 
$10,000 was payment for the writing of the article. 

Q I take it that the other entries that are shown, 
which I believe we covered yesterday — an entry for Commercial 
Tulin, anjthen several wires to Lake, are simply disbursements 
from IBC that were made at Colonel North's direction? 

A Correct. 

Q Did all of these disbursements come from money that 

had been passed to IBCaicsri WffL A M4%l>n^Pntended for 
contra assistance? 

A Either passed to us, or — yes, it all came from NEPL 



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money. 



Q When did you first meet Father Tom Dowling? 

A I think it was fairly late. I think it was like 
1986. 

Q When, in 19867 Do you recall? 

A I don't. I recall, I think he was in Adolf o 
Calero's presence when I met him. 

Q Were you aware that Father Dowling was a principal 
of the Latin American Strategic Studies Institute? 

A Yes. 

Q Were you aware of that fact at the time that 
Colonel North directed disbursements, and of IC, Inc., to the 
Latin American Strateg^ic. Studies^ Institute? 

A Yes. 

Q Now we covered it yesterday. One of the disburse- 
ments of $25,000, I believe, that went to Latin American 
Strategic Studies Institute, came directly from IBC, Inc.? 

A Right. 
- Q I believe you testified that that $25,000 was 
directed by Colonel North also? 

A It was requested by Tom Dowling, and by Adolf o 
Calero, and approved by Colonel North. 

Q Did you ever discuss with Father Dowling your 
involvement or participation in what I've been referring to 
as a shorthand or a contra-funding network? 



ling, ana oy Adoiro 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Not until very recently. 

Q When did that discussion take place? 

A The last time I saw him was about three or four 
weeks ago, I think. 

Q Was that discussion in the presence of counsel? 

A No. 

Q Can you tell us what the substance of that discus- 
sion was . 

A It was a friendly conversation over lunch. I don't 
recall us comparing notes about much in the way of transac- 
tions. We were discussing mostly the financial difficulty of 
his organization at present. 

Q What was the piece of conversation that you had in 
which you told him about your involvement in the contra- 
funding network? 

A Well, I've told everybody that will listen, that 
this allegation by Jane McLaughlin, that Spitz Channell gave 
IBC $5 million to go to the freedom fighters, and that we 
kept 2 million of it was erroneous, and it only takes then a 
description of Spitz's Central American Freedom Program to 
prove my point, and that's what I di'J. I described the 
Central American Freedom Program. 

Q Was there any other d^^usf ion ai>out your involve- 
ment in the funding network? 

A No. 



it diWS^ion about your involv 

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Q Do you recall a meeting with Father Dowling and 
Colonel North, and yourself, on November 17, 1986? 

A November 17, 1986? Not specifically. 

Q Do you recall such a meeting generally? 

A Not really. If you can give me other details, 
maybe I can refresh my recollection. 

Q Does it refresh your recollection at all, if i 
remind you that November 17 was a Monday, and it was just a 
few days prior to the meetings on November 20 and 21 about 
which you've testified before here, previously, on June 23rd? 

A No. 

Q Does it refresh your recollection if I tell you 
that the meeting took place at Colonel North's office? 

A That's where I was trying to envision it. That 
still doesn't click. 

Q Did you travel to Panama in November 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the purpose of that travel? 

A It had to do with a client we have in Panama. It's 
unrelated to this matter. 

Q Did you return from Panama with some cash? 

A I did. 

Q Do you recall how much? 



)m Panama witn some cash? 

UNCLASSIFIED 



A I believe it was slightly over $35,000. 
Q what was the source of that cash? 



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A It was $35,000 in retainer and associated expenses. 
Q When you say "retainer and associated expenses," 
that's payment from a client that you had in Paneuna? 

A That's correct. We reported it on the Treasury 
form and our foreign-agent registration is on file with the 
Justice Department. 

Q Would you tell us the name of the client. 
MR. DUDLEY: May we go off the record. 
MR. KAPLAN: Sure. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
MR. KAPLAN: On the record. 

In an of f-the-record conversation that ensued, I 
was informed by counsel for the witness, Mr. Miller, that the 
response to my question would divulge, on a record which 
might at some point be made public, the identity of a client, 
that for business purposes, and for no purpose related to 
these Committee investigations, Mr. Miller would like to keep 
from the public, as a matter CLf busJ.aes&-aU(ii^rofessional 
propriety . 

I will not pursue the question or press the 
question, and I withdraw it from the record. I will state, 
for the record, that counsel for the Committees have been 
informed previously of the identity of that client, and that 
identity is one which we intend to guard confidentially. 
THE WITNESS: Thank you. 



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MR. DUDLEY: I appreciate that. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Why were you paid in cash? 

A I don't know. 

Q Did you ask for a cash payment? 

A No. We actually asked for a wire transfer which is 
preferable, but we received cash. 

Q Had you received any prior payments from that 
client, or was this the first payment that you received? 

A No, we had received prior payments. 

Q You had. Were those payments in about the same 
amount? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the billing basis that you had with that 
client? 

A It's a retainer relationship. Monthly retainer 
plus expenses. 

- Q Did you receive subsequent payments from that 
client? 

A Yes. 

Q You have. Are those subsequent payments in 
approximately the same ait^pyjjt^ ^f_ currency _that_ ^ou brought 
back from Panama? 

A At least one of them, and then our amount of 



amDUDt. Sf currency that yo 

liLSSSiflED 



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retainer was reduced. 

Q . When did you first meet Richard Pena? 

A I met Richard when I was at the--well, I'm not 
sure, but some time before 1985. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Deposition Exhibit Number 24 a copy of what purports to be 
a letter from Mr. Pena to World Affairs Counselors, Inc., 
dated August 15, 1985. 

[The document referred to was marked for 
identification as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 24. ] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I ask you if you recognize that letter? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that a letter that you received as a principal 
in World Affairs Counselors, Inc.? 

A It is a letter I received addressed to World 
Affairs Counselors, Inc., but it was delivered to me, 
personally. 

Q Why was the letter, to your knowledge, addressed to 
World Affairs Counselors, Inc.? 

A Because I didn't want _it_ addie5sed_to_ljiternational 
Business Communications. 

Q Can you tell us why you didn't want it addressed to 
International Business Communications? 




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A Well, it really is an offer of assistance from Mr. 
Pena in securing a favorable price tag on military equipment 
after the Congressional vote approving the sale of military 
equipment, or the purchase of military equipment for the 
benefit of the Nicaraguan resistance. And there was no 
reason why that type of business should/ be handled in any way 
through IBC. That's not IBC's business, and I was passing it 
along as a courtesy, and I chose World Affairs Counselors 
because it would have been anonymous to anybody here in 
Washington, and it had to be addressed to somebody. 

Q Is it fair to say that the purchase of arms is also 
not World Affairs Counselors' business as well? 

A That's correct. 

Q Who was this letter being passed on to? 

A I passed it on to Colonel North. Mr. Pena asked me 
to pass it on to whoever the appropriate person was, and I 
think he assumed I knew whoever the person was in the Central 
Intelligence Agency that would be responsible for these types 
of things, but I didn't, so I just asked Colonel North to pass 
it on. 

Q Do you know why Mr. Pena assumed that you would be 
someone who would know the appropriate j)erspn^ at t^ C_IA to 
pass along a letter of this sort? 

A I just think he had watched us operate in the area 
of Central American policy and had a good understanding of 



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how close we were to Mr. Calero, and just assumed that we 
were closely associated with the effort. 

MR. DUDLEY: So the record is clear, those are your 
assumptions. Are they based on any conversations you had 
with Pena? 

THE WITNESS: In very rough terms. I mean, not any 
that I recall, specifically. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q The letter states that it encloses a list of 
products available from a number of entities li-sted, and then 
it has an attachment which is called "Price List of Items 
Available. " I'll just state for the record, that the items 
listed are grenades, anti-personnel mines, anti-tank mine, 
NATO standards, bombs, and boots. 

Is that an accurate reading? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you understand that Mr. Pena was going to send 
youa letter that had-^ljpjg^tyQp^qf^ jyjoduct^ availability 
listed? 

A I understood that it was going to be military 
equipment. I think we discussed rifles and boots, are the 
only thing I remember specifically discussing before this 
letter arrived, and it was a very short discussion. I told 
him I had no idea how to — what a price tag was on something 
like that, and that his suppliers would have to — 




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Q Did you assure Mr. Pena that you would pass this 
letter along to the appropriate people? 

A Yes . 

Q The last paragraph of the letter itself makes 
reference to previous discussions that Mr. Pena alleges that 
he had with you and states that — and I will just quote it - 
- "We envision that commissions payable on the sale of any 
particular product will be divided equally among the corpora- 
tions involved and the placement of that product", close 
quote. Do you recall the previous discussions that gave rise 
to that last paragraph? 

A I can recall Mr. Pena telling me that his company 
had an offshore corporation. I can't recall specifically 
where it was, and that he felt there would be some commission 
associated with this sale. I think one or both of these 
people are actually clients or personal friends of his, and 
he had made an offer for splitting whatever commission had 
cone to him. I didn't take it particularly seriously. I 
didn't anticipate it. In fact, in all honesty I treated this 
whole thing fairly casually. 

Q Was it your understanding though that if commissions 
were received from the purchase by the CIA of any of these 
items from the companies listed by Jfc, .^aa ^hat you indeed 
would share in those commissions? 

A It was clear to me that he had made that offer. 



'-Mil, -Pena that you indeec 

iciASifinED 



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I'm not sure I would have taken him up on it. I don't even 
know what size the commissions would be on it. 

Q Why would you not have taken him up on that offer? 

A I'm not an arms' merchant. I don't care to be in 
the arms' merchant business. 

Q Okay . 

Is it your testimony, however, that you did give 
Mr. Pena the name World Affairs Counselors, Inc. because that 
would not be recognizable — 

A That's correct. 

Q — in the domestic United States? 

A Overseas. Since it is a Cayman corporation, it 
would have been impossible for somebody to find out who the 
principal beneficiaries were. So anybody trying to find out 
who this letter was written to would not be able to do so, 
and yet still the letter was written to a corporation so that 
it was a legitimate offer. That way it could be passed on to 
somebody and taken seriously. 

" Q Is it also fair to say that you didn't want any 
national business communications' name on a letter of this 



sort? 



Absolutely. 

And why is that? 



UNCIASSIRED 



A Because it is not the business of International 
Business Communications. 



335 



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Q Do you recall Colonel North's reaction when you 
gave him this letter? 

A I don't even think he took it out of the envelope. 
He just said that he would pass it along, but I believe he 
said that he thought that it had all been taken care of. 

Q Did you have any subsequent discussions with 
Colonel North about this letter or Mr. Pena's offer? 

A I asked him one time whether it had been passed on 
and that was after Mr. Pena had asked me if I had passed it 
on to the appropriate person. 

Q Okay. 

What did Colonel North tell you? 

A He told me he passed it on to the appropriate 
person. 

Q You testified on June 23rd about meetings that you 
had with Colonel North on November 20th and 21st. Have you 
had any contacts or did you have any contacts with Colonel 
North after your meeting with him on November 21st? 

- A Yes. I saw him probably within five or six days of 
leaving the National Security Council. 

Q Were you repre^^ted^by coMn^el_at_the time? 

A No. 

Q Was that meeting in the presence of his counsel? 

A No. 

Q Can you tell us what the purpose of that meeting 




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was? 

A I don't know what defines presence of counsel. It 
was at his attorney's office. 

Q Was his counsel in the room? 

A No. 

Q Who initiated that meeting? 

A I did. 

Q You did. What was the purpose? 

A There had been newspaper articles quoting Oscar 
Matsunoros and unnamed officials of the Nlcaraguan resistance, 
saying that they had only gotten a few hundred thousand 
dollars from the money Mr. Channell raised, and that he had 
kept it all or IBC had kept it all. And knowing that we had 
sent $1.7 million to Lake Resources and we had sent over $1 
million directly to Calero's accounts and then the balance to 
other organizations, such as Mr. Robelo's and so forth, that 
didn't Jibe with reality. 

And I had also read the revelation from H. Ross 
P9fot that he had been asked to deposit $2 million into Lake 
Resources. And it was suddenly clear to me that that account 
was used for many other things ^ther than Just assistance for 
the Nicaraguan resistance. 

So I went to him, and the first thing I said to him 
was "I hope to hell that that account was used for humanita- 
rian assistance", and he said, "Oh hell, yes." And I told 



IS other than Just assista 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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him of my concern about Mr. Calero's statements and that it 
was clear to me and that it was not clear to Mr. Calero that 
the money that had gone to Lake Resources and to his accounts 
had come from us. And he listened quietly to that. I asked 
him whether he thought it would be a good idea for me to go 
see Mr. Ca_ero and explain it to him. And his sole response 
was , " I think that would be a good idea . " 

And we then talked a bit about our wives and what 
they were going through, and he showed me the stack of 
letters behind him, and told me that he was working on his 
statement to be read to the Committees on a computer. And I 
left, and that is the sum of the meeting. 

Q Where did the meeting take place? 

In an office at Williams and Connolly. 
Was anyone else present at that meeting? 
No. 

We also had a subsequent meeting, at which time we 
were both represented by counsel in February. 

- Q Did the meeting take Piace in the presence of 
counsel? 

A Yes, my counsel and his co'jnsel. 

MR. KAPLAN: Mr. Dudley, would you assert privilege 
as to the communications that took place between Mr. Miller 
and Mr. North during that meeting? 

MR. DUDLEY: I am prepared to let Mr. Miller 




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testify with respect to that meeting, provided that it will 
not be claimed by the Committee or anyone connected with the 
Committees, either Committee, that doing so constitutes a 
waiver of the attorney/client privilege. I am not prepared 
to take a position as to whether that meeting actually is 
privileged, but I am prepared to let him testify so long as 
it is not considered a general waiver. 

MR. KAPLAN: On that understanding which we can 
represent will be the understanding of both Committees. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I would like to then proceed and ask Mr. Miller 
what was the substance of the discussion that took place at 
that meeting? 

A I had been since November putting together pretty 
much by myself a report to Mr. Channell of how his money had 
been expended, and had gotten to the point where being a 
metier person, I recognized that it was days before it would 
hit the front page of the Washington Post after its issuance, 
that I thought Colonel North ^houlc^ be _at_J.ea£t apprised of 
what was in it. 

And I asked my attorney to discuss it with his 
attorney and a subsequent meeting was set up. And he 
reviewed the report briefly, and his sole concern was for the 
personal safety of two individuals mentioned in the report, 
and that there was only one line amended, and that single 



North should be at least 

UNCLASSIRED 



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a- 



line simply eliminated references 

And we then talked about his dog, and we talked 
about our wives again and our families and then we left each 
other. 

Q Who else was present at that meeting, for the 
record? 

A Earl Dudley, Ronald Precup, Barry Simon and Brenc^n 
Sullivan. 

MR. DUDLEY: I should state that I don't think 
everyone was always present for all parts of that meeting. 
MR. KAPLAN: Okay. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Had you had any other contacts or conversations 
with Colonel North since February, since that meeting that 
you just described? 

A I spoke to hin briefly by telephone before Christmas 
to wish he auid his family a merry Christmas, and again we 
talked about our families and Max, the dog. 

We may have had one other coiiysnaiipn^ but again I 
think it was just of a personal nature J |!^ a- 

Q When you testified a momep": ago that you asked 
Colonel North whether the funds that had been raised and 
disbursed through IBC and IC, Inc. had been used for humanita 
rian purposes, you said that his response was, "Hell, yes.' 
Has time refreshed your recollection to amend the expletive 





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that he used in response to the question? 

A I would say it's ambiguous enough that it could 
have been either my previous recollection or the present 
recollection. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm sorry. I couldn't avoid it. 

MR. DUDLEY: Only the expletives have been deleted. 

THE WITNESS: He is a marine officer, you know. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q To your knowledge, were there any gifts or other 
items of value that were given to North or his family by 
anyone during the time that you have known Colonel North? 

MR. DUDLEY: Did you say other? 

MR. KAPLAN: No. I said by anyone. 

MR. DUDLEY: I want to know whether the word 
"other" was in there before the word "gifts". 

MR. KAPLAN: I said gifts or other items of value. 

MR. DUDLEY: I thought I heard you say were there 
any' other gifts or items of value given. 

MR. KAPLAN: No. I will withdraw the previous 
question and ask this one again. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q To your knowledge, was Colonel Noftfi 'givSi^any 
gifts or other items of value during your relationship with 
him by anyone? 

A Well, I gave him a gift but I think it was of more 




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value to me than it was to him. 

Q And what was the gift you gave him? 

A It was a Labrador pup, and it was after the stories 
had come out about his dog being poisoned. And I am a dog 
lover and raise Labradors, and I couldn't stand the thought 
of his children being without their dog. So I promptly went 
over with my pregnant wife and delivered a beautiful little 
yellow Lab pup, only to fihd out later that the dog that was 
killed was about six inches tall. So I am not sure he has 
ever been as grateful as I thought he would be for introducing 
this monstrous 97 pound beast into his household. 

Q You may have taken a liking to me over the course 
of our relationship, and I know my wife would appreciate it 
if you didn't deliver a Labrador pup. 

A I always remember things. So I never do the wrong 
thing twice. 

Q Are there any other gifts or items of value that 
you or any of your associates gave to North during the time 
of 'your professional relatJLosahla wj.tii iLijn? 

A None other. 

Q Are you aware of gifts or items of value given to 
North by Mr. Channell, and I will say other than the implica 
tion of your testimony that North flew on a Channell chartered 
plane or a Newington chartered plane to Mrs. Newington's that 
weekend? 




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UNCUSSIHED 



337 



A I think when Mrs. Newington — when we were at Mrs. 
Newington's, she gave each of us a tie. I got one. I'm 
pretty sure Colonel North got one. 

Q Do you recall a briefcase that Mr. Channell or 
yourself might have given to Colonel North at some time 
during 1985 or 19867 

A I remember Mr. Channell giving me a briefcase, but 
I don't remember him giving Mr. North one. 

Q Okay. 

Have you had any contacts with Mr. Channell or Mr. 
Conrad since November 19867 

A Yes. 

Q When was the first such contact after November? 

A Mr. Channell retained IBC again in November to 
assist in his relations' effort, and we continued that 
relationship until April, I believe. 

Q Of this year7 

A Of this past year; that's right. 

Q Aside from any efforts of IBC's on his behalf with 
respect to that professional relationship, did you have any 
discussions with Mr. Channell after November 1986 about your 
respective participation in what I am referring to as the 
contra funding network? 

A Well, sure. I presented the report to him. He 



in wnac i am rererring to 



asked continually for as much documentation as could be 



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UNCmFIED 



338 



provided. And I sought that documentation from the recipients 
of the assistance, and I'm sure we discussed it. 

Q What prompted the February 1987 report, a portion 
of which was marked yesterday as Exhibit 17? 

A Dan Conrad had been asking for about nine or ten 
months for a full report of the 1985/86 expenditures, and 
there simply was not during the period in which we were 
working for Mr. Channell time to do it, since I was the 
individual that would have to do 95 percent of the work 

And finally in November it became clear to me that 
he would need a report for tax purposes and for purposes of 
talking to his own contributors, and so I worked I have no 
idea how many hours, but virtually every night and all 
weekends for some time mid-November probably until the report 
was issued in February. 

Q Did you discuss the substance of the report with 
Channell or Conrad before you actually gave the report to him? 
- A No. 

Q You and I talked yesterday about some of the 
conclusions in the report that are on page 3 of Exhibit 17. 
Did you review these conclusions drawn with anyone prior to 
giving the report to Channell? 

MR. DUDLEY: Other than counsel. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Other than counsel? 



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No. 



Q Were these conclusions in the report when Colonel 
North reviewed the report in your meeting with him and in 
your meeting with him and counsel in February 1987? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Colonel North comment at all about the con- 
clusions that we discussed yesterday? 

A He made no comment about it, but I remember 
specifically his counsel saying that they took no position on 
any of the characterizations. 

Q Did Mr. Gomez review the report before it was 
turned over to NEPL? 

A I don't believe. 

Q Did you discuss the conclusions drawn with him 
prior to distribution to NEPL? 

A I don't think so. 

Q Have you discussed those conclusions with Mr. Gomez 
after the issuance of the report? 

A I may have, but I don't recall specifically. 

Q And did you discuss the conclusions with Mr. 
Channel or Mr. Conrad after the issuance of the report? 

A No. 

Q You mentioned yesterday that you met -- 

A Can I take a break? 
MR. KAPLAN: Fine. 



ONWSSIFIED 



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UNCUSSIflEO 



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[Brief recess . ] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I believe that you testified yesterday that you met 
David Fischer some time in December of 1985. 

A I think I may have met him in November or some time 
at the end of the year. 

Q Do you recall who introduced you to Mr. Fischer? 

A Marty Artiano. 

Q How did you know Mr. Artiano? 

A I knew Marty from the campaign. We had a casual 
acquaintance during the campaign. 

Q Which campaign are you talking about? 

A The Reagan/Bush 1979-80 campaign. And I subsequent- 
ly got to know Mr. Artiano better when he was working at the 
State Department and subsequently to his leaving the State 
Department and becoming a partner at Anderson, Hibey, Narheim 
and Blair. 

Q Did you work with Mr. Artiano at the State Depart- 
ment? 

A We had some contact. His position there was in the 
Office of International Organizationo and AID has a fair 
amount of work with the Office of International Organizations. 

Q Did Mr. Artiano introduce Mr. Fischer to you for a 
particular purpose, at least as far as you know? 

A Yes. I tvtfita%t^i^^d A Sf Sttb^'SC either a consulting 



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organization to take over the account completely or to find 
somebody that would be willing to work together with us on 
the account for Mr. Channell. And it was contact with Mr. 
Artiano that led to the conversations with Mr. Fischer and 
himself . 

Q By the account, you are referring to the NEPL 
account? 

A All the Channell organizations. 

Q Okay. 

What was your interest in Mr. Fischer particularly? 

A We had gotten to a point with Mr. Channell where we 
were not able to increase his level of efficiency and 
programs with our stature, and we needed somebody of greater 
stature to accomplish that. And that was our reason for 
seeking senior consultants to do that. 

Q What did you learn about Mr. Fischer's background 
upon meeting him? 

A I knew exactly who David Fischer was before I ever 
met him. He was as well known to campaign people as would 
have been Lyn Notziger or Ed Meese or anybody like that. 

Q What was Mr. Fischer's pos^.tion in the White House? 

A He was President Reagan's personal assistant. 

Q Did IBC and Mr. Fischer conclude a business 
relationship some time in November or December of 1985? 

A Yes. !}Mf^Mf^^?'r!iri 



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Q What was the relationship that you arrived at? 
A Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano were retained by IBC to 
work on initially the Channell account, and their services 
would include the arrangement of briefings for Mr. Channell 
and his people with senior officials, policymakers, policy 
implementation offices for the arrangement of briefings by 
senior Administration officials or Mr. Channell and by Mr. 
Channell to senior Administration officials and policymakers. 
They were responsible from that period forward for 
most of the senior-level contacts within the Administration, 
Congress. They provided some advice and counsel on strategic 
planning, reviewed texts for proposed programs, made recommen- 
dations as to how to improve the success of the programs. 
They wrote planning memoranda and at some points I think they 
worked on talking points. That's all off the top of my head. 
Q What was the initial financial arrangement of your 
relationship with Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano? 

A Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano asked initially for 
$20,000 a month with a long-term commitment. It didn't take 
them very long to realize how demanding Mr. Channell was, and 
for them to continue the effort, they required that I 
guarantee to them two years' worth of retainer, which I 
agreed to do. Since that was money X would have gotten from 
Mr. Channell in order to guarantee it, I left it up to them 
to make calls for i^*«<iifi.tjritui.iQn.aj3d_Sver the course of the 




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i07 C Sum. N E 25 

WutuaiToa. D C 20002 
(2011 H6-66i6 



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next six to eight months, I charged Mr. Channell sufficient 
fees to be able to meet that guarantee. 

Q What was Channell 's understanding as to the fee 
basis that you had arranged with Fischer and Artiano? 

A I told him — and I remember a conversation in my 
office at my conference table with Mr. Channell — that I was 
going to charge him $20,000 a month plus $50,000 a month and 
he was actually, I think, kind of disturbed by that. But I 
also explained to him that he wanted the level of effort that 
he had outlined, that that was going to be what was required 
and he accepted it and paid it out over actually I think a 
period of about eight months. That may be a shorter length 
of time, maybe six months. 

Q Is it fair to say that you had almost daily contact 
with Mr. Fischer with respect to his carrying out of the 
services under your business arrangement with him from 
December 1985 forward? 

A I would use the term daily because it included 
nights and weekends. It was an extremely demanding period of 
time. 

Q Did Mr. Fischer work out of your offices? 

A No. For a period of time, he worked out of Mr. 
Artiano 's office. He also was still living in Salt Lake 
City. So he would fly to Washington, and when he was in 
Washington, ■^"•"a^y"fTh b° j-'^i^j iWrJ'mmt of IBC's offices. 





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Muin ftromwia co.. inc. 
W7 C SicKT. N E 25 

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(202) M6-MM 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q With what regularity did you have contact with Mr. 
Artiano during this same period of time, that is from 
December 1985 forward? 

A Initially, I would say probably daily. 

Q For how long? 

A I don't know, probably the first three months or 
so, four months. And then my contacts gravitated more to Mr. 
Fischer. 

Q Did you receive bills from Mr. Fischer or Mr. 
Artiano or both for payment of these monthly retainers? 

A No. I left it up to them to make cash calls on us. 
Since it was agreed upon $20,000 a month, there was no need 
for any elaborate mathematics. I simply knew how much money 
they had coming, and they were allowed to call on it any time 
they wanted to. 

Q When you contacted Mr. Artiano, did you contact him 
at his law office? 

A Yes. 

Q And that would have been daily contact for at least 
a period of months after and including December 1985? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did Mr. Artiano — strike that question. 

What was the form of payment that you made to 
Fischer and Artiano pursuant to this business arrangement? 

A Both checks and wires 



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mun MtroRTmo CO., mc. 
507 C Stictt. N E 25 

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(202) »6-it6t 



UNCLASSIFIED 



345 



Q How come wires? 

A No particular reason. 

Q Would there be wires to Mr. Fischer in Salt Lake 
City? 

A Either to his account in Salt Lake City or to Mr. 
Artiano's account in Washington. 

Q Were your checks made to Mr. Fischer personally, or 
were they made to David C. Fischer and Associates? 

A I don't really remember. It's academic. 

Q Just so we can clarify for the record, I take it 
that you made — of this $20,000 a month, did you make a 
portion of that $20,000 by payment to Mr. Fischer and a 
portion of that--to Mr. Artiano each month, or did you make a 
lump sum payment that they split amongsti themselves? 

A Initially, I made lump sum payments that they split 
eunongst themselves, and then it was up to each one of them to 
make cash calls. And whatever their cash call was, that is 
wha^ I paid, simply that their request for payment was met by 
a payment. 

Q Were payments to Mr. Artiano made to htm personally, 
to the best of your recollection? 

A I think so. 

Q Did you eveiL make any payments to the law firm of 
Anderson-Hibey? 

A I think I made a payment to Anderson. No, I don't 



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MUn MCVOttTWO CO., INC. 
MlCSottt. NE. 25 

UltuBpcB. D C 20002 
(202) V46-MM 



UNcussm 



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think I have ever made a payment to Anderson. 

Q Did you have meetings with Mr. Artiano during the 
first month after the beginning of the relationship? 

A Yes. 

Q Where did those meetings typically take place? 

A Well, when they were just regarding our client, 
they would have been at IBC or at his office. 

Q When you say "his office", you are referring to his 
office at Anderson-Hibey? 

A Yes. And I also attended some meetings with him 
that he and Mr. Fischer had set up with officials or policy 
offices, and those would have been outside our offices. 

Q How long did Mr. Fischer maintain offices at Mr. 
Artiano' s law firm? 



I couldn't say for certain. I can't place a time 



on it. 



Q Did he have a separate office at the law firm? 

A I don't know. 

Q what was your understanding as to the relationship, 

if any, between Mr. Fischer and the law firm of Anderson- 
Hibey? 

A I don't think there was a relationship. 

Q Other than tie.^ct tjja^ hehad an office there — 

A Yes . I 

Q — at least for a period of time. 



'£.*» that he had an o 

fUSSIFIED 



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MU.III NVOnTINa CO.. MC. 
>07 C Sucti. N E 25 

Wuhinitixi. D C i0002 
(!0!| M«-6«< 



uNcussra 



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Was there a time when Mr. Fischer took up an office 
residence at IBC's offices? 

A Yes . 

Q When did that occur? 

A In late June or July of 1986. 

Q So that was some time around the time that IBC and 
David C. Fischer and Associates entered into a joint venture 
arrangement? 

A That's right. 

Q Do you recall what the total fees were that were 
paid to Fischer and Artiano over the course of your relation- 
ship with them? Well, strike that. 

Do you recall what the total fees that were paid to 
Fischer and Artiano pursuant to this business relationship 
that was struck between IBC and them in December of 1985? 

A It would have been about $480,000. 

Q And do you recall when those fees were paid? 

A Over the course of the next probably eleven or 
thirteen months . 

Q Was there a time when the fee payments of $20,000 a 
month were accelerated by IBC? 

A Well, they had the right to accelerate it any time 
they wanted to, depending on **h*t .tbej.r_naed3_were^ It was 
for me a singular commitment. 

Q So that if I understand you correctly, in December 



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MLLm NVOmiNO CO.. IMC. 
507CStrt«. NE 25 

Vuhufioo. O C 20002 
(202) M6-«6M 



IINMlflEO 



348 



of 1985 you guaranteed to Fischer and Artiano $20,000 a month 
and you guaranteed to them payment for 24 months running from 
that time. 

A Correct. 

Q And if my multiplication serves me correct, that 24 
months times $20,000 comes to $480,000. Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q So that there was a lump sum arrangement in 
December 1985 of $480,000 payable to them. Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

MR. DUDLEY! I have a little trouble with the 
phrase "lump sum" there. There was a total commitment to pay 
that. 

MR. KAPLAN! I'll take that clarification. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Was there a total commitment made in December 1985 
that IBC would pay Fischer and Artiano that amount, pretty 
mucli regardless of what happened? 

A Well, as long as they continued to work with the 
client. 

Q Okay. And that was part of the understanding in 
your original relationship.] 

A Yes. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Q And pursuant to that total commitment though, as I 
understand your testimony, is it correct to say that Fischer 



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wtxMH nvoKTma co.. inc. 
W7 C SuCTt. N E 25 

WnhmfTon. DC 20002 
(202) V««-MM 



ONCLASSinED 



349 



and Artiano had the right to call upon IBC to make payments 
of amounts up to that $480,000 at any time during their 
performance of services under that original business relation- 
ship? 

A Well, they had the right, but obviously, if they 
had stopped doing the work, we would have not been eunenable 
to the call. 

Q Right. But assuming that they did continue to do 
the work — 

A Yes, they had the right to call, and they did on 
occasion call for large sums. 

Q If they had come to you three months into the 
relationship and called on the entire $480,000, would IBC 
have paid to them under the terms of their relationship that 
$480,000? 

MR. DUDLEY: Objection; that is speculative. 
THE WITNESS: Yes. That's a hypothetical. I 
wouldn't answer i^. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Was there a time in which they called more than 
$20,000 a month? 

A I think there was at least one occasion — well, 
maybe as many as two or three. 

Q Did IBC pass through all the payments to Fischer 
and Artiano to NEPL? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



355 



507 CStnn. N E. 
VMhjaitoo, DC 
(»2) V4i-«i« 



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ONCUSSiriED 



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Do you understand what 1 am asking? 

A No. 

Q Was NEPL charged for Fischer and Artiano's services 
that IBC paid for? 

A Yes. 

Q In total? 

A In regards to the client relationship that we 
discussed earlier, yes. There was an additional relationship 
at a later point in tiroe. 

Q Okay, which didn't involve NEPL? 

A No. It involved IBC clients in general. 

Q I see. And the $480,000 that was paid to Fischer 
and Artiano under this original business relationship that 
was struck in December of 1985, was that $480,000 charged to 
NEPL by IBC? 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay . 

•DJ-d you have an understanding that Fischer and 
Artiano were being paid based on a number of meetings with 
the President that they were able to arrange? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whether anyone else had that understand- 
ing? 

A At some point~we "actually ITeld a~meeting because 
Spitz or Dan Conrad — I have forgotten which — had said 



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)07 C Street. NE 2 5 

Wuhuiioo. DC 20C02 
(202) Ht-iUt 



UNCLASSIRED 



351 



something similar to that, and we actually held a meeting in 
my conference room, in which Marty Artiano quite avidly 
dissuaded them of that notion, and I remember him saying "I 
have no idea how this got started but I want it to be clear 
that that's not why we were brought into this." And it was 
agreed that that was the case, and the meeting was ended. 

Q When did that meeting take place? 

A We were in our new office. So it had to be after 
January . 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 



Of 1986? 
Yes. 

What was Channell's response? 

I don't think he particularly liked the direct 
nature that Marty used to discuss it with him, and aside from 
that, I think he was in agreement. 

MR. McGOUGH: Would you mind if I interjected here 
because I have the sequence I think a little more clearly. 
MR. KAPLAN: Go right ahead. 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 
THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q There was originally the agreement for $20,000 a 



month. Is that correct? 



iU 




A Correct. 

Q There then was a meeting you had wITJT'Mr. Channell 



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MXIM ROOKTMO CO.. MC 
M7 C Strcn. N E 25 

Wuhinitoo. DC 20002 
(202) M«.««M 



UNCLASSIFIED 



352 



that you mentioned before at a conference table where you 
told him that over the next six months you were going to 
charge him $20,000 a month plus $50,000 a month. 

A That's correct. 

Q When did that meeting take place? 

A It had to be in December because we were in our old 
offices. 

Q So you had the meeting in December where you told 
him that was the arrangement. What was his response to that 
offer or request? 

A He wasn't happy about it. 

Q I think you said December of 1986. You mean 
December of 1985. 

A Correct . 

Q Did he ask you anything about what Fischer and 
Artiano might do in exchange — or if he, in fact, were to 
pay $70,000 a month? Did he ask you anything about their 
capabilities? 

A Your time frames are reversed because he was the 
one that set the work product necessary to his program. So 
he had already identified what he wanted to have done. 

Q There was a time when he thought he was going to 
pay $20,000 a month. Is that right? 

A Initially, when I spoke to Mr. Artiano and Mr. 

Fischer, we were talking, fltyjiiJ^ $20^^ 





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)07CStRn. NE 25 

Wuhiniioo. D C 20002 
(202) i*6-tUt 



UNCUSSIFIED 



353 



Q And did you relay that on to Mr. Channel 1? 

A I think initially I did relay that to Mr. Channell. 

Q Then you came back in December of 1986 and said 
that for the next six months you were going to charge him 
$20,000 a month plus $50,000 a month., 

A Correct. 

Q And Mr. Channell wasn't happy with that. 

A That's correct. 

Q Did Mr. Channell ask you anything about Presidential 
meetings at that meeting in December of 1986 -- 1985. I'm 
sorry. 

A He may well have. I don't have a specific recollec- 
tion, but again you have got the cart before the horse. I 
don't want to use any particular analogy. 

The work product that Mr. Channell was demanding 
had already been discussed prior to that meeting. 

Q I understand that, and I understand that Presiden- 
tial meetings may well have been discussed prior to that 
meeting. But my question is: When you broached that 
proposal with him in December of 1986, the proposal being 
$20,000 plus $50,000 — in 1985 — wiien you broached that 
proposal in December of 1985 for $20,000 plus $50,000, did he 
ask in response anything about Presidential meetings? 

A Again, not that I specifically recall, but Presiden- 
tial meetings were pi:tth ff £^ fch% Qf e^ious discussion of the 




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507CSire«. NE 25 

Wuhinfion. O C. 20002 
(202) Mt-MM 



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354 



work product that he needed. So it is entirely possible but 
I don't recall a specific exchange on it. 

Q Do you recall a specific exchange involving whether 
or not he would receive for Presidential meetings over the 
next four months? 

A I remember he wanted the President at events over 
the next four months, and I think ultimately six or eight 
months. But he -- yes. 

Q That was at the December 1985 meeting. 
A Yes. 

Q And what did you tell him about the President's 
availability over the next four months or six months? I 
mean, did you tell him that you would have to check with 
Fischer and Artiano as to whether that was possible? 

A I don't recall whether I said that to him or not. 
Q Did you make any response at all to him? 
A Again, I don't recall the specific exchange. So I 
don't recall. But again, he understood going into that 
meeting that he was requesting as part of his work product 
meetings with the President. 

Q I understand that. But I sm focusing on the 
December meeting, and all I want to know is whether you have 
a recollection as to that meeting of Mr. Channell asking in 
response to your proposal for $70,000 a month about the 
President's availability for meetings over that same time 



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ItUfIt KErORTmO CO.. INC. 
507CSUTO. NE 25 

Waihuiftoa. D C 20002 
(202) )4«.MM 



ONClASSinED 



355 



period, over the next four to six months? 

A I don't have a specific recollection. 

Q Did Mr. Channell agree to that amount at that 
meeting, or did you have to go back and get further informa- 
tion from Mr. Artiano and Mr. Fischer? 

A I recall him agreeing at the meeting. In fact, I 
recall him leaning on my fireplace and saying he was not 
happy about it, but that he was willing to pay it. 

Q Did he indicate what he expected in exchange for 
the additional payment? 

A I don't remember a specific exchange about what he 
expected for the additional payments. 

Q Did you come away with a sense that he expected any 
additional effort on the part of Mr. Fischer or Mr. Artiano 
or any tangible work product from that? 

A Yes, but it wasn't any different than the same 
expectations going into the meeting. 

Q So you don't recall him having any additional 
expectations for the additional $50,000 per month? 

MR. DUDLEY: "Additional" may be wrong here'. It is 
escalated $50,000. 

MR. OLIVER: He used the word "additional" earlier. 
MR. DUDLEY: I know he did and I let it go by and I 



shouldn't have. 



BY MR. McGOUGH: 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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507 C Scrttt. N E 25 

Wishintton. D C 20002 
(202) Vt6-6M« 



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Q I am trying to understand you had struck a deal in 
November to provide certain services, in November of 1985 to 
provide certain services for $20,000 a month. 

A Right. 

Q Within one month you come back — 

A In probably less than one month. 

Q In probably less than one month you come back and 
say, "No, the price is now $70,000 per month." I'm trying to 
get at whether in exchange for that increase in at least 
monthly installments or that compression of the money whether 
Mr. Channell spoke in terms of additional results or addition- 
al effort or additional work product from Mr. Fischer or Mr. 
Artiano. Or did he say, "No, that's okay; I will pay $70,000 
for what I originally thought we were going to get for 
$20,000." 

A Again, counsel, I am not trying to be evasive but 
the meeting was predicated on the fact that there was a great 
increase in the amount of effort that Mr. Channell expected 
over the next six months. And it was my requirement that he 
pay this extra money associated with that effort. 

Q So it was Mr. Channell who had set the predicate 
for the meeting as being additional effort over the next six 
months? 

A Oh, yes. 

Q What were the additional efforts that he was asking 



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WJ-in MVOKTINa CO.. MC. 
>07CSctt»t. NE 25 

WuhinflOfl. D C !000] 
{201) M6-6666 



liNCUSSIFlEO 



357 



for over the next six months? 

A Well, initially when we went to Fischer and 
Artiano, first of all, we had to retain them to even begin 
the discussions. So that I remember clearly. And initially 
they thought they were doing mostly advice and counsel. When 
it became clear early on in their first meetings with Mr. 
Channell that he had a very long agenda with a lot of work 
elements associated with it, that required a lot of time on 
their part and a lot of contact with very senior officials 
and their credibility on the line and so forth. That's when 
they suggested that they were going to have to have a two- 
year commitment from me, and I agreed to that. 

This is all within probably one to three weeks. 

Q All right. This was before a deal was struck for 
$20,000 a month for two years. 

A At that point, the deal was struck for $20,000 a 
month for two years. 

Q We're at that point. 

A Right. 

Q I'm just trying to follow the sequence through. 
The coming up on this meeting in December of 1985, Mr. 
Channell made additional demands on them. 

A I guess my problem is that I am looking at a 
maximum of three weeks, probably about a two-week period 
where it became clear that the ampuat.of .^ork that Mr. 



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358 



Channell was requiring was greatly in excess of what he had 
conveyed to anyone before. 

Q I know we have to focus on that. What I am trying 
to get at is the difference between the work he had conveyed 
before and the work that now led up to this December 1985 
meeting where the payments were compressed. What was the 
difference in what he was asking before? 



Before all he was asking for was advice and counsel, 

Advice and counsel on what? 

On his programs, just on the substance of his 

And it didn't involve Executive Branch liaison? 

No. 

It didn't involve setting up meetings with the 



A 
Q 
A 

programs 

Q 

A 

Q 
President? 

A No. 

Q After in that two to three-week period leading up 
to the December 1985 meeting, he changed or he increased the 
demands upon them. Fair enough? 

A 1 will give you that if you don't keep your list 
only two items long. 

Q Fine. But he made additional demands. 

A Right. 

Q And was ^h®|Q¥S*iCg^% JS^V^rfWW^®^ 1985 meeting? 
A Right 



mSKET 



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wmm 



359 



Q And at the December 1985 meeting one -- or leading 
up to the December 1985 meeting, one of the additional 
demands was Executive Branch liaison? 

A That's correct. 

Q And one of the additional demands was assistance in 
setting up meetings? 

A That's correct. 

Q And there were other demands as well. 

A A tremendous number of other demands. 

Q A tremendous number of other demands . And in 
exchange for those additional efforts you asked for an 
increase in the monthly payments from $20,000 a month to 
$70,000 a month over the next — 

A Correct. 

Q — six months. And in that context was there any 
discussion of the number of Presidential meetings that Mr. 
Fischer or Mr. Artiano might be able to set up over the 
coucse of the next four to six months? 

A I don't remember a specific exchange about the 
number of Presidential meetings. I recall that Mr. Channell 
was anticipating having af .i€>^5f. orie^\ieiit;_4 jnQflth like the 
one he had in January. 

Q And did he inquire whether or not the President -- 
whether or not Mr. Fischer or Mr. Artiano might be able to 
arrange for the presence of the President at one or more of 




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UNCUSSIHED 



360 



those events which would work out to one or more a month over 
the next six months? 

A I don't recall a specific exchange as you have just 
characterized . 

Q But the schedule for the events over the next six 
months was certainly a topic of conversation, was it not? 

A Mr. Channell had anticipated having one of these 
events one a month for the next six — originally four months 
and then six months. 

Q And he wanted the President to attend those, did he* 
not? 

A If possible, yes. 

Q And at some point you would have discussed, would 
you not, with Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano their ability to 
arrange for the President's presence at those meetings. 
Correct? 

A I think you have to rephrase your question. 
_ Q I guess what I am saying is you would have asked 
thm, "Hey, Marty, hey, Dave, Channell plans a series of 
events over the next six months. Is there any chance you 
could have the President attend" or -omething to that effect. 

A I think it was more a matter of us laying out or me 
laying out for Marty and David the total agenda that Channell 
had over the next six months, and they felt confident that 
they could help meet it. 



UNCUSSIRED 



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ONCLASSm 



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Q And that agenda included, at least ideally, 
arranging for the President to attend Channell's events. 

A Well, there were a lot of ideal items on it, and 
several which never happened. 

Q I understand. But one of the items would have been 
that. 

A Yes. 

Q And you would have discussed those ideals with Mr. 
Artiano and Mr. Fischer, would you not? 

A We would have discussed the agenda in general . I 
don't think I would have ever questioned whether or not they 
could deliver on the agenda if they said they could. 

Q But they would have indicated that they could 
deliver. You said you wouldn't have questioned them if they 
said they could. Did they indicate that they could do that? 

A You and I have used "if" and "would" about ten 
times in the last three sentences, and I am telling you I 
donjt recall a specific exchange, and I just want to leave it 
at that. I mean, I don't think I would have challenged them 
on whether or not they could deliver on something. I don't 
think I would have ^sked them^Decy.tica]J.v whptjier they could 

deliver on something UNbLAOoll IlU 

Q Would they have told you about their capabilities 
as far as bringing the President to Mr. Channell's events? 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to the form of the question. 



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I will let him answer did they tell you. 
BY MR. McGOUGH: 
Q Did they tell you? 
A I don't recall them specifically telling me that. 

MR. McGOUGH: I think I have pretty well played out 
that. 

MR. KAPLAN: I just have two follow-up questions on 
that area, and then I want to move on. 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 
THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE (Resximed) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Did Mr. Channell tell you in this meeting that 
occurred in early 1986 how he arrived at the understanding 
that he apparently had arrived at that he would be paying 
$50,000 for meetings that could be set up with the President? 

A I don't think what we were trying to dissuade him 
of was that he was paying $50,000 a meeting. What we were 
trying to dissuade him of was that the sole reason he had 
hired Mr. Fischer was to set up meetings with the President. 

Q Did Channell tell you how he arrived at that 
understanding? 
A No. 

Q How did you learn that Channell was holding this 
understanding of hi § Jipgii»§ss_ relationship with Fischer and 
Artiano? 




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INCUSSIHED 



363 



A I think it was an errant comment made by him to 
either Mr. Fischer or myself or Mr. Artiano. 

Q Okay. And that's what gave rise to the meeting? 

A Yes. It was an attempt to nip it. 

Q And you described the meeting earlier in your 
testimony here today. 

A Yes. 

Q Let ' s move on . 

Do you know a Richard Secord? 

A Well, I met him on the street one time and I talked 
to him on the phone three times . 

Q When did you meet him on the street? 

A About a week ago. 

Q How did that meeting come about? Was it a chance 
meeting? 

A It was very chance and it was a simple handshake 
and a wish for good luck to both of us. 

Q Did he know who you were when you introduced 
yourself? 

A I don't think he recognized me immediately but 
shortly I think it dawned on him who I was. 

Q Did you "13^4 thi-V#il ^^nFJiFt9^ §^9SP^^'-^ around 
Dupont Circle? UsiyLM^ 

A Yes. I have spoken to him on the phone, as I told 
you in past meetings, I guess, about two or three times. 




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WUSSIFIED 



364 



MR. KAPLAN: Let the record reflect that IBC's 

offices are near Dupont Circle as are General Secord's 

t 
counsel's offices. 

Off the record. 

[Brief discussion off the record.] 

MR. KAPLAN: Back on the record. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q In what context did you have phone conversations 
with Mr. Secord previously? 

A Well, I didn't know it was Mr. Secord at the time 
during the al-Masoudi business. I eventually got to the 
point — 

MR. KAPLAN: What I would like to do actually is to 
go on for about five more minutes and then take about a ten- 
minute break. 

THE WITNESS: The supposed oil contract needed to 
be checked out and I asked Colonel North if there wasn't 
somebody that couldn't in an official capacity check it out. 
And he gave me a number in Northern Virginia and said, "Call 
this and ask for Mr. Kopp", and I did, and they took my name 
and number and then called me back, ■?r rather he called me 
back. I gave him the account number or the contract number, 
and he called me back in about a week-and-a-half or two weeks 
to tell me that the contract did not exist. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 



IINCIASSIflEO 



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iCUSSIFIED 



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Q Do you recall the third phone conversation you had 
with Mr. Kopp? 

A I called him about — well, no, those were the only 
ones I had with Mr. Kopp. I had one other phone conversation 
with him about a month ago. 

Q What gave rise to that conversation? 

A I had a film idea and I wanted to discuss it with 

him. 

Q Why did you discuss General Secord to discuss the 

film idea with him? 

A Well, I figured with he on one side of this network 
and me on the other, we would pretty much cover the details 
associated with it. It has gone nowhere than a phone conversa- 
tion. 

Q Is it an idea that relates to some of the activities 
under investigation by these Committees? 
A Of course. 

MR. KAPLAN: I am going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Exhibit Number 25 a copy of a page of notes that was 
produced by your counsel to us. 

(Where'jpon, Deposition Exhibit 
Number 2 5 was marked for 



identification. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Can you identify those notes? 



IIILASSIFIED 



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(102)M64C6« 



UNCUSSIRED 



366 



A Yes . That is from a notebook that I kept during 
the al-Masoudi period. 

Q Okay. Do you recall the context in which these 
notes were written? 

A It was a conversation with Mr. al-Masoudi. 

Q Did Mr. al-Masoudi tell you the information that is 
contained in the item numbered 1, which says "Paid order to 
Credit Suisse", and then it has the name Kopp underneath? 

A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. al-Masoudi know this Mr. Kopp? 

A He met him in Geneva. 

Q And was this a request, and does this note reflect 
a request from al-Masoudi for you to send some money to him 
in care of Credit Suisse and Mr. Kopp? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall what this note reflects? 

A Barely. It's vintage al-Masoudi. It's some bright 
idea he had to give Mr. Kopp some money. 

Q Did he tell you what he was going to give Mr. Kopp 
some money for? 

A No, but I am assuming that he had put two and two 
together and assume that Mr. Kopp was in some way related to 
Mr. North and the Nicaraguan resistance. 

Q When did you learn that Mr. Kopp was the same 
person as General Secord: 



" tic 



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u 



ILASSIRED 



367 



A I think it was the same article as the H. Ross 
Perot revelation. 

Q That's in December of 1986. 

A Yes, but it was about that period anyway. 

Q Were you aware at the time that you were handling 
some transactions between IC, Inc. and Lake Resources, and 
that Mr. Kopp had an association with Lake Resources? 

A Well, I think from the al-Masoudi business I had 
some inkling, but nothing substantial or specific. 

Q Did Mr. Kopp's name ever come up in conversations 
between you and Colonel North or you and anyone else in 
connection with your contra funding activities? 

A Well, subsequent to the checking out of the oil 
contract, Colonel North said that he sent somebody to see the 
real Ibrahim al-Masoudi in Saudi Arabia, and I believe he 
told me it was Mr. Kopp. 

Q Any other times that you recall his name being 
mentioned in connection with your contra funding activities? 

A I'm not remembering any right now. 

Q How well did you know William Casey? 

A He fired me one time. He Furloughed me, as you 
were so nice to put it before. 

Q Aside from that, how closely did you work with him 
during the campaign, that is the 1980 campaign? 

A In 1980, not very closely. 




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ONCLASSIHED 



368 



Q Did you have any subsequent dealings with Mr. Casey? 
A No, not directly. 

Q What dealings would you have had with him possibly 
indirectly? 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to the form of the question 
THE WITNESS: Well, there was an indirect dealing 
and that was that Mr. Fischer set up a meeting between Mr. 
Channell and Mr. Casey to discuss an idea that Mr. Channell 
had for doing a film on the Central Intelligence Agency. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q And I take it to your knowledge nothing ever 
materialized about that film idea? 

A No. I shy away from films about the Central 
Intelligence Agency. 

Q You described yesterday some contacts and communica- 
tions you had with a fellow named Roy Godson. 
A Yes. 

Q Are there any other contacts you had with Mr. 
Godaon than the ones that you described yesterday? 

A Not that I had, but I think Frank had some brief 
contact with him at about the time they produced their book 
on Soviet disinformation. 

Q Have you ever had any contact with Vice President 
Bush? 

A I have met Vice President Bush 



ntact With Vice President 

ICIASSIRED 



374 



UNCLASSinED 



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Q Any substantive contact with him? 

A Well, Mr. Conrad, Mr. Channel 1 and myself went to 
see Vice President Bush. Mr. Channell requested the meeting. 
Mr. Fischer, Mr. Artiano and myself set it up. I went; we 
were presenting to Vice President Bush a survey of the Select 
500 which is a Channell survey system of senior contributors 
to try and get some sense of the conservative activist 
heartbeat, senior conservative activist heartbeat. And we 
went and presented that to him, and also described the 
Central American Freedom Program and suggested that he might 
try and attend one of the briefings. And he said that if it 
fit his schedule, he would. We subsequently tried and it 
didn't fit his schedule, so he didn't. 

Q Who arranged the meeting for you with Vice President 
Bush? 

A I think it was a collective effort of myself, Mr. 
Fischer and Mr. Artiano. 

Q Have you ever met Donald Gregg? 

A No, I don't think so. 

Q Have you ever had any dealings with Felix Rodriguez? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of the Iranian arms ' 
sales prior to public disclosure of thpsfi-Sflies? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of what is commonly 



disclosure of those sa^s 

UNClASSiFlED 



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UNCUSSinED 



370 



referred to as the diversion of proceeds from those arms' 
sales to the contras prior to public disclosure of that 
activity? 

A Unfortunately no. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of any third-country 
solicitations that took place by United States Government 
officials prior to the public disclosure of those solicita- 
tions and aside from the reference to third-country solicita- 
tion to which you testified back on June 23rd? 

A Of June 2 3rd? 

Q Do you recall on June 23rd you testified that in 
your conversation with Colonel North on Friday, November 
21st, he made a reference which you didn't understand at the 
time, that he had given one to Secretary Shultz and Secretary 
Shultz hadn't done so well on it. Do you recall that 
testimony? 

A I do. 

Q Aside from that conversation, did you in 1985 and 
1986 have any knowledge of any third-country solicitations — 

A No. 

Q — made by the United Stat'^s Government personnel? 

A No. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of any third-country 
solicitations on behalf of the contras made by anyone during 
1985 and 



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UNCUSSIFIM 



371 




MR. DUDLEY: To the extent that the al-Masoudi 
effort could be considered a third country — 

MR. KAPLAN: Why don't we take a break here for 
five minutes. 

Off the record. ) 
[Brief recess. ] 

MR. KAPLAN: Let me ask the reporter to mark as 
Deposition Exhibit 26 a copy of what purports to be two 
telexes from you and Mr. Gomez to an Anthony K. Devine in the 
Cayman Islands. 

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 
Number 26 was marked for 
identification. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I'm just going to ask you if you could briefly tell 
us for the record what gave rise to the two telexes that are 
represented by Exhibit 26. , 

A I went to see Colonel North after the Hasenfus 
plane was shot down, and, as I recall, he was pretty franti- 
cally working around the office, and I sat at the conference 
table for some time, and I got in one question, which was: 
Was that one of our P^cftfft/IWpnknaka&aj^jJie planes that 



IfflE! 




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uNcussra 



372 



NEPL had raised money for? And he said, "Sure was", or 
something to that effect; I have forgotten exactly what it 
was he said, but his answer was affirmative. 

And he was talking to somebody on the telephone, 
frantically trying to find a way to find an American citizen 
to give $10,000 to the United States Embassy to reimburse 
Consular Affairs to bring the bodies of Mr. Walker and the 
other individual back to the United States. There are 
usually — I am aware of this because of my work at AID -- 
there are usually mortuary responsibilities that are absorbed 
by the Consular Affairs Office in the Embassy, and the 
individual family is responsible for reimbursing it. 

And I looked at him and I said, "Why are you going 
through all of this pain and aggravation? Why don't you just 
give me the account number and I will transfer the money from 
IC, Inc.?" And he thought for a second and he said to the 
person that he was talking to on the phone, "I'll call you 
back." And it just hadn't dawned on him to do it. So he 
called back and asked who the money should be sent to. 

I don't know who he was talking to on the other 
line. It may have been this Mr. Wal'cer. And this is the 
information that he got. I went back and sent a telex that 
night or the next day, and he then called me on the phone and 
said, "Has that transaction taken place yet?" And I said, "I 
have sent the te^^piqi l^^^d^)^ j^^^a^Xdl* you pull it back?" 



DNCUSSIflM 



378 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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And I said, "I think so." And he said, "Please cancel it." 

Q Did he tell you why he wanted you to cancel the 
telex? 

A No. 

Q Did you ask him why? 

A No. 

MR. OLIVER: Can I follow up just on that particular 
thing? 

Mr. Miller, after you cancelled that telex, did you 
notify Mr. Walker either directly or indirectly that it had 
been cancelled? 

THE WITNESS: I never discussed it either way with 
Mr. Walker. I never talked to Mr. Walker about it. 

MR. OLIVER: Did you discuss with anyone else 
contacting Mr. Walker? 

THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. No, I didn't. 
MR. OLIVER; You didn't instruct anyone to notify 
the State Department or Mr. Walker that the telex had been 
cancelled or that other arrangements had been made? 
THE WITNESS: No. 
MR. OLIVER: Thank you. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q Did the initials lOtfH ^*fqr .io^aji^ aircraft? 
A I believe so. 
Q Do you know what kind of aircraft they refer tO' 




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WNCWSSIflEO 



374 



A C-9, I really don't know what configuration it is. 

Q Do you recall a conversation with Colonel North in 
the summer of 1986 in which you would have informed him that 
a C-9 was on standby? 

A A C-9 was on standby? 

Q Yes. 

A I don't think so. 

Q Would he have given you any information to that 
effect? 

A 

Q 

A 
matter 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 



When? February? 

Summer of 1986. 

It may have been in regards to the al-Masoudi 



No, in 1986. 

Oh, 1986? 

Right . 

It could have been one of the heavy-lifting 
operations - There was one point when he had an extremely 
urgent need for money and nothing was moving until the money 
got there, and that may have been the instance in which -- 

MR. KAPLAN: Okay. I am q-.^ing to ask the reporter 
to mark as Exhibit 27 a copy of a document that was produced 
to us by your counsel. It is typewritten, and it is headed 
at the top "Statutory Provisions on Contra Aid". 

(Whereupon, Deposition Exhibit 



UNCLASSIRED 



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(U2| M«-««66 



UNCLASSIHED 



375 



Number 27 was marked for 
identification. ) 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Do you recognize this document? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you tell us what the document is? 

A I got this document since Colonel North left the 



NSC. 



Q Do you know who prepared it? 

A I don't. 

Q Where did you get the document from? 

A I honestly don't remember. I may have gotten it 
from Frank Gomez . 

Q Did you ask Gomez for the document? 

A No, but lots of times when he had something, he 
just provides it to me if he knoira I'm working on it. 

Q And for what purpose did you receive this document, 
or for what purpose did you ask for this document? 

Let me back up a minute. How did this document 
come into your possession? 

A I don't remember specifically how it came into my 
possession. My use of it was general information. I was 
trying to produce a time line for Mr. Channell's ads, and I 
needed across the bottom legislative landmarks and Administra- 
tion policy landmarks, and ^|&>¥>A'% tbaX.'^ vtldt-I_used this 




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IMLISI tF UW IWO CO.. MC. 
iO'CSotn. NE. 2 5 

Wulunroa. D C n)002 
(202) iti-ttU 



UNCLASSIFIED 



376 



for. I produced that in January, I think. 

Q Okay . 

And is it fair to characterize the document as a 
description of the variety of statutory provisions dealing 
with contra aid or prohibitions of aid to the contras by the 
United States Government? 

MR. DUDLEY: I object to the form of the question. 
I think the docximent speaks for itself, and I'm not sure he 
is competent to answer the question framed in those terms. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q What did you consider? What kind of information 
did you consider this document to provide you with? 

A Items of note in the legislative process associated 
with aid to the Nicaraguan resistance. 

Q Did you have any knowledge of hostage rescue 
efforts, that is rescue efforts of the hostages held in 
Lebanon prior to the public disclosure of some of those 
hostage rescue efforts during the course of these investiga- 
tions? 

A Yes. 

Q First, I am going to ask y^ru whether you were ever 
asked to provide any money to extricate the hostages that 
were held in Lebanon? 

A I was asked to provide money that was used in an 
effort to extricate hostages from Lebanon. 



ilNP mm 



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iMuoi mroitma co.. hc. 

)07 C Street. NE 25 

Wuhuitnin. D C 20002 
(202) HA^tU 



mUSSIFIED 



377 



Q why don't you tell us first what knowledge you had 
of any hostage rescue efforts prior to their public disclosure 
late last year? 

A In the summer of 1985 when I began working with 
Ibrahim al-Masoudi on this oil contract that was to provide 
assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance, I flew to Fresno, 
California for meetings with Mr. al-Masoudi. And while I was 
there the TWA hostage crisis unfolded in Lebanon, and Mr. al- 
Masoudi immediately offered to assist in securing the release 
of those hostages. He gave me a fair amount of information 
which I passed on to Colonel North by telephone. Colonel 
North indicated that the information seemed a track. "Track" 
is a word of art; it seems to be associated with activities 
that Colonel North conducts . 

And as the crisis unfolded, al-Masoudi began to 
broaden his offer to help at that point five hostages held in 
Beirut by terrorists. And all the information I got from al- 
Masoudi — whether it was names, places or numbers or 
whatever — I tried to pass those on as often as possible 
daily to Colonel North, and in one instance to the Task Force 
that was set up at the Federal Bureau of Investigation for 
the TWA crisis. 

Q How did you know about the Task Force that had been 
set up at the FBI? 

A There was aiai^fSkef if oJeyant information that al- 




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■uoi nvomara co.. mc 
»7 C Sireit. N E 25 

Wukinfion. C 20002 
(202) 



IINCUSSIflED 



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Masoudi had, and they wanted to discuss it with him. And I 
don't know whether North -- I don't know who told who to do 
what, but I was told to call the Task Force, and they set up 
a meeting with al-Masoudi in Houston, I believe. 

Q Do you recall who you spoke to at that FBI Task 
Force? 

A I don't remember the agent's name, but they 
certainly would have records of it. They sent field agents 
to interview al-Masoudi in Houston. 

Q Did you attend those interviews? 

A No. 

Then when we went to — when al-Masoudi and I went 
to London and^^^^^^^B al-Masoudi had made an offer while 
we were ^^^^^^^B^° ^^ ^^^ help in some form of a rescue 
effort that the DBA agents were involved in, and it required 
on one occasion $15,000 and on another I think $5,000 or 
$10,000. And I transferred that money initially, the $18,000 
in travelers check sent by DHL Courier, and subsequently the 
other monies, I think, were transferred via the American 
Express offices in Geneva. 

Q What DBA agents are you referring to? Can you tell 
us their names? ^^^^ 

A Well, the only one I remember is^^^^^^^^^Hwho 
flew with us to London, and then flew onto] 

Q When you sent travelers checks to support the 

MMPI ACCIPCn 




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■•xin RtroRTiNa co.. inc. 
)07 C StiCTT. N E 25 

WuhingToa. D C 20002 
(202) ^tt-ittt 



UNCLASSIFIED 



J79 



operation, who requested the money? 

A Al-Masoudi requested it. I discussed it with North 
and he approved me of sending it. 

Q What were the source of funds for those traveJ*^^ 
checks? 

A That was money that had been provided by NEPL 

Q Was Mr. Channel 1 or Mr. Conrad ever told that *°™® 
of the money that they provided was used for hostage res'-"® 
efforts? 

A No. 

Q You referred, I believe, to approximately $18 ^''^O 
worth of travelers checks that were sent by DHL Courier ^H 
|. Were those sent toward the end of August of 19"^' 

A I think that's correct. 

Q Was there a later traveler check transfer alac* ^V 
DHL Courier to al-Masoudi of $5,000? 

A Yes. 

Q Would that have occurred early in November 19C^- 
Or did that occur early in 1985? 

A There was a transfer, I think, in November th*^ 
wasn't completed. He never picked them up because he w** ^" 



jail. 



yNMSinEi 



Q November 1985? 

A I have forgotten exactly when that pick-up wa^' ''^'- 
we got back $4,500 of that because he had been arrested* ^"" 



385 



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Wuhmiiofi. C. 20002 
(202) Mt-MM 



ni^mim 



380 



it was at the time of the Summit. So I think the Summit was 
in November. 

Q Do you recall having filed a Treasury report form 
nonetheless for that transfer? 

A Yes. 

Q Was there also a transfer about five or six days 
later of $9,000 of travelers checks by DHL Courier to al- 
Masoudi? 

A I don't remember through DHL. 

Q Okay . 

Does it refresh your recollection if I told you 
that we have from the Department of Treasury the various CMIR 
filings that you made? That's currency and monetary instru- 
ments reports' filings to what you have testified earlier. 
And they show $18,500 on August 30th by DHL Courier to al- 
Masoudi, 35,000 again travelers checks on November 1 by DHL 
Courier to al-Masoudi, and $9,000 again travelers checks by 
DHL Courier to al-Masoudi on November 6, 1985? 

A Yes. 

MR. DUDLEY: Do you understand his question? 
People are frequently confused refre'shing recollections. The 
fact that he has got a |i:Hl(|]A|th||t^pmp|r^t^fe^doesn't mean 
that you remember it. 

His question to you is: His having told you about 
the record, do you now remember it? 



tUMSSIFIED' 



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MiMM mroimHa co.. mc. 

507 C Suc«. N E 25 

VuhmiTon. O C Z0002 
(202) V«6-6M6 



UNCLASSIFIED 



381 



THE WITNESS: I remember that we filed three forms. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Were those checks all sent at al-Masoudi's request? 

A Yes. 

Q Was each transfer of travelers checks to which you 
have just testified approved by North? 

A Yes. 

Q I am going to take you back to your initial 
dealings with al-Masoudi. What did he propose to you in 
terms of the business venture? 

MR. DUDLEY: As a starting question, I am not 
wildly enthusiastic about that one. My problem with it is 
that I am not sure that the first proposal is accurately 
characterized as a business venture. There are later 
proposals I think that are more accurately characterized that 
way. 

MR. KAPLAN: I will withdraw that question. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q I believe that you testified earlier that your 
first meeting with al-Masoudi occurred some time in April of 
1985, and that he had been referred "--o you by Colonel North. 

A Actually, I think I testified that it was early in 
April or late in March of 1985. 

Q Okay. 

A We had two meetings with him, the second where he 



JNCUSSinED 



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Hujn nromma co., inc. 

507 C Sum. N E 25 

WuhtnftoA. DC 20002 
(202) »i-Uti 



NCUSSIFIED 



382 



signed this letter. 

Q Did you meet with al-Masoudi shortly after he had 
been referred to you by North? 



A 
Q 
meeting? 

A 



I think it was the same day. 

Okay. Did someone accompany al-Masoudi to that 



Kevin Katke. 

Q How would you describe Kevin Katke? 

A You mean, what was his role in the meeting? 

Q Who is Kevin Katke? 

A Kevin Katke to my understanding at that moment was 
a business agent of al-Masoudi. 

Q Have you come to any other understanding as to what 
Kevin Katke does? 

A Well, I was told by Colonel North that he had 
attempted to enter in the Central Intelligence Agency and had 
been rejected, that he was unreliable because he tended to 
talk about people whom he had no real connection with or no 
right to claim a connection with, and sort of an Intelligence 
community gap line. 

Q During your initial meetings with al-Masoudi, did 
he tell you what his interest was in meeting with you? 



Al-Masoudi 's? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Did al-Masoudi tell me what al-Masoudi 's interest 



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Hixn RCroimHa co.. inc. 

507CSUCTI. NE 25 

Wuhiniton. O C 20002 
(202) Mi-MM 



383 



was? 



Yes. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



A Yes. 

Q What was that interest? 

A Well, it was a little difficult to understand at 
first because al-Masoudi was speaking pigeon English and 
Katke who doesn't speak Arabic or whatever, Farsi, was 
translating. So it was a very unusual circumstance and it 
made it a very difficult meeting. It probably lasted an hour 
and it could have lasted five minutes. But basically, al- 
Masoudi held himself out as the Prince of Jedda, Ibrahim al- 
Masoudi, Senior Saudi prince, and he had a royal family 
allotment oil contract, of which he wanted to donate $14 
million in the proceeds to the Nicaraguan resistance. And he 
asked if we could assist him in doing that, and we said yes. 

Q What did you understand the form of your assistance 
to be? 

A I didn't really know at that point. 

Q And what did you come to understand that the form 
of your assistance would be? 

A Well, I discussed it subss'juently with North, and 
we decided to have me meet him the second time, and to have 
him make whatever the formal offer was, and the second time 
he came to see me, I suggested to him that he not bring Mr. 



Katke, and he agreed. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



389 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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■uu Rtrwrrma CO.. mc. 
507 C Soctt. N E 25 

Vaifcispoo. O C 20002 
(202) Vt«-««M 



And this time he brought with him a gentleman whom 
he introduced as his attorney. The gentleman gave me a 
business card that indicated that he was President and 
Chairman of the Board of the William Penn Bank in Philadel- 
phia. And Katke had told me in a telephone conversation that 
Mr. al-Masoudi was attempting to buy an interest in this 
bank. So that was pretty good bona fides to show up with the 
Chairman of a bank in Philadelphia. 

Q Did al-Masoudi propose a business relationship at 
that second meeting? 

A He proposed a contract letter which he dictated in 
Arabic to my secretary who spoke Arabic, and she translated 
it into English, and it called for a total of $15 million to 
be paid to IC, Inc. And again the name IC, Inc. was chosen 
at the conference table at that moment. 

I hadn't been to the Caymans; I hadn't selected a 
name. And the increase of $1 million was subsequent to a 
conversation with North where I indicated that Frank and I 
were willing to undertake this, but we weren't about to risk 
life, limb and professional reputations without some compensa- 
tion for it, and we were going to require that this individual 
pay an additional $1 million. 

And he agreed to that. So the subsequent contract 
from al-Masoudi to us said enough liftings in order to equal 
$15 million. It was a fairly 



mmmB 



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MLUM ntromma co.. inc. 

507 C StTCCT. N E 25 

Wuhinfion. DC. 20002 
(U2I )4&-666« 



UNCLASSIFIED 



385 



Q Was the understanding that $14 million would go to 
the Nicaraguan resistance and $1 million would go to you and 
Mr. Gomez? 

A That's correct. 

Q What was your understanding at that time or shortly 
thereafter as to the nature of services that you would be 
called on to perform? 

A I can't put a specific finger on them, but al- 
Masoudi was a very demanding individual. He called every 15 
minutes with a new problem. He required us to carry the bair 
in meetings with people who spoke English and to handle the 
financial transactions. 

Q If you can, explain briefly what the nature of 
these transactions was intended to be. You mentioned an oil 
contract worth $14 million, and I am not — 

A Well, the contract was — 

Q I was going to say that I am not familiar with the 
way oil gets sold from Saudi Arabia. 

A I have to tell you, counsel, neither am I. 

Q Okay . 

A After all of this, I still have no idea how it is 

really done. 

Q What I am curious about is how was this $14 million 
going to be generated? 

A Well, apparently — and this was the reason for the 




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MJJM HtMNTIIM CO.. MC 
)07CStr«t. NE 25 

Vuhmfton. D C 20002 
(202) )4<-«M6 




386 



Chairman of this William Penn Bank, unbeknownst to us prior 
to this meeting — they were going to be responsible for the 
financing of this contract. And according to al-Masoudi, the 
financial end of the transaction is the one that pays out the 
commissions or associated fees. 

The actual money that he was supposed to get from 
it was quite a bit more than $15 million, a certain amount of 
money — I don't know, $60 or $70 million. 

Q Was the expectation that you would market this 
contract? 

A No, not initially. What happened was that subse- 
quent to that meeting, he then called and told me that Mr. 
Katke had been in charge of marketing and failed. And he had 
asked if we could assist him in marketing the oil contract. 
I didn't have anybody else to turn to. So I agreed that we 
would try and do that, and I contacted my stockbroker and 
asked him how it was done. He suggested that his firm wasn't 
involved in that type of transaction, and suggested another 
brokerage firm, Merrill Lynch. 

I got in touch with the Merrill Lynch commodities' 
brokers. They told me how an offer to sell is written up. I 
produced it for them. They then put me in touch with a 
couple of brokers who then asked the appropriate question, 
which was what is the contract number, something al-Masoudi 
was unwilling to give them for a whole host of reasons, which 



UNCLASSIRED 



392 



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W7 C Strett. N E 25 

Vuhinftoa. DC 20002 
(102) Hi-MM 



UmssiFIED 



387 



he claimed all to be legitimate. I had no way of knowing 
whether they were or weren't. 

And he then subsequently called and told me that 
the time had expired on his oil contract and that the deal 
was off. And I then in a very short period of time later got 
another phone call from him, and he told me that he had 
gotten a new oil contract and, to prevent the problems that 
had actually gone on before, he had actually got it in the 
name of International Business Communications. 

I wasn't any further along in my understanding of 
how to do oil contracts, but in the interest of helping the 
resistance, we accepted the fact that it was in our ncune. 
And I flew out to Fresno to meet with him to try and get some 
more information on it. And while I was in Fresno, I 
participated with him in several phone calls and he sent 
repeated telexes and offers to sell to different refineries 
and so forth and so on. And I was an observer during most of 
that period. 

Q Just so we can clarify for the record. When you 
talk about marketing an oil contract^ is that the same thing 
as selling oil to someone? 

A Precisely. 



ment? Precisely? 

THE WITNES 



MR. DUDLEY: Are you sure you can make that state- 
: You said when ''^i talk about." 



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OKLVt mponrwo CO . inc. 
)07 C Suen. N E 25 

Vuhioiton. D C 20002 
(202) M6-6M« 




388 



MR. DUDLEY: Oh, okay. 
[Laughter. ] 

MR. KAPLAN: I was just asking for Mr. Miller's 
understanding. 

THE WITNESS: It was a wonderful day, sitting in 
front of FBI agents, trying to explain to them that I had no 
idea whether anything that was said to me before is truth or 
fiction. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Was the idea that the prince could deliver on some 
oil, and that you and he were going to attempt to find 
purchasers of that oil, and that some of the proceeds from 
the sale of that oil would be given to the resistance, to 
support the resistance, and $1 million of the proceeds from 
the sale of that oil would be paid to IBC? 

A I'll accept the entire litany except for the first 
item. It was his oil contract, supposedly under Saudi Arabian 
law it belonged to him, it was his oil, and so what was 
represented was the profit was about 60 to $70 million to him. 

Q The profit of 60 to $70 million was to him. He 
could deliver on the product, that i3, the oil, at least that 
was his representation? 

A Correct. 

Q $14 million of the profit was going to go to the 

contras through IC, Inc.? •fi'fiii 




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>07 C Scieei. N E 25 

Wuhmron O C 20002 
(202) V4«.M6« 



Correct. 



ICLASSIFIED 



389 



Q And $1 million of the profit was going to go to IBC? 

A Correct. 

Q Okay. Would it refresh your recollection as to 
your initial meeting in Fresno, if I told you that the 
Committee has documents indicating telephone calls from you 
to Colonel North, from a number with the area code 809, which 
I believe is Fresno's area code, in early May of 1985? 

A That's probably my first meeting. 
MR. DUDLEY: First trip to Fresno? 
THE WITNESS: First trip to Fresno, right. 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Was al-Masoudi referred to by any code name between 
you and North? 

A I called al-Masoudi "Jewel." He wore a ring that 
had 17 dieunonds on it, seventeen one-carat diamonds, so I 
called him Jewel. 

Q Did North refer to al-Masoudi as Jewel, at least in 
conversations with you? 

A With me, yes. 

Q Did you keep North regularly apprised of your 
dealings with al-Masoudi? ^^ 

A You bet. 

Q You kept him apprised of your dealings with al 
Masoudi, both with respect to this marketing of the oil 



audi? ^ .«. . .u.a ^ H^ 

mmm 



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)07 C Sire«. N E 25 

VuhinfToa. D C 10001 
{Ml) Mt-MM 



UNCLASSIFIED 



390 



contract and with respect to al-Masoudi's information about 
the location and possible release of the hostages held in 
Lebanon? 

A That, and in addition to that, a gold contract 
which he began to try and supplement his failure to deliver 
on the oil contract, and also, his description of himself and 
other individuals associated with the Saudi Arabian nation, 
and I hoped that it could be checked out by somebody who knew 
what they were talking about. 

Q You travelled to England in the summer of 1985 with. 
al-Masoudi and with a DEA agent? 
A That's correct. 

Q Did you go on, in that trip, from England^^HB 
ith al-Masoudi? 
Yes. 

What was the purpose of that trip? 

To finalize the oil contract, and the gold contract, 
when did you begin to suspect al-Masoudi's 



A 

Q 

A 

Q 
bonaf ides? 

A Well, I spent a whole weekend in the library, 
shortly after I met him, at the McKelden Library, at Univer- 
sity of Maryland looking the guy up. The biggest problem you 
have with the Saudi royal family is that there are no books 
with pictures of any of them. They kind of like it that way, 
apparently. 



WMSSIFIfD 



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)07 C Surei. N E 2 5 

Vuhin(io<i. D C 20O02 
(202) !46-M«6 



UNCUSSIFIED 



391 



But I found him. In fact he was an imposter. He 
is a fraud, but he is an imposter, and he had studied his 
character fairly well. And everything that he had told us 
about himself was borne out in written form in the literature 
that I found. I took pictures of him with he and my wife, 
and then gave the pictures to North so that he wouldn't 
suspect that I was giving them to somebody to have him 
checked out. And we tried to — I tried to go home at night 
and take my notes, and compile summaries that could then be 
given to North so that he could check them out. 

Q To your knowledge, were any other people at the NSC 
knowledgeable of your dealings with al-Masoudi? Of any of 
your dealings with al-Masoudi? 

A It's possible Fawn may have heard the neune in pass- 
ing. 

Q Do you recall any involvement of Howard Teicher with 
respect to al-Masoudi? 

A Yeah, Teicher '3 name came out in the very first 
conversation with al-Masoudi and Katke, and the assertion 
from Katke was that al-Masoudi had provided the information 
that helped the Kuwaitis avoid the bombing attack on Amir. 
Anyway, he continually used Teicher 's name. 

And when I raised it to North, he told me that in 
fact this individual had been very helpful to Teicher, but he 



didn't elaborate on it. And when I would provide him what was 



ifoi nooin 




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WaihiD|ioa. DC. 20C02 







CLASSiHED 



392 



intelligence details provided by al-Masoudi, he often 
remarked that that tracked, and that seemed to indicate that 
al-Masoudi was ahead of the news cycle, and therefore would 
have not known those things if he hadn't been in some way an 
active participant or had contacted people who were active 
participants . 

Q Do you recall some time in June of 1985, when 
Teicher lent some assistance in obtaining a visa for al- 
Masoudi 's brother? 

A Well, al-Masoudi asserted that Teicher did that. I 
never bothered to check out whether or not he did. 

Q Did you have any conversations with Teicher, 
directly, about al-Masoudi? 

A I don't believe so. 




398 



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assife 



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And the only official response I ever got read back to me was 
that he had had one meeting at the Central Intelligence 
Agency, and their analysis was he was probably who he said he 
was, that he was a distaff prince who was a significant 
threat to the Saudi regime. But he was probably who he said 
he was . 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 
Q I want to go back to the trip that we just covered 
briefly before, in which you and al-Masoudi and a DEA agent, 
I believe named^^^^^^^^B travel led to England and then on 

to ^^mi^m^^i^^^^B 

Did North arrange for^^BHto accompany you? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ask North to arrange to have a Federal 
agent accompany you? Or did North volunteer^^^^Hto take 
this trip? 

A I think he volunteered^^^^^nd I think it had 
more to do with al-Masoudi 's hostage business than anything 
else. 

Q Did you know who^^^^|.was at that time? 

A I met ^^^^9 s'^d somebody named^^^^^-and I can ' t 
remember the guy's last name — and — 

Q Was it 

A Yes. In North's office 

Q When did you meet them? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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/ 



A It was prior to the trip. I don't know how much 
prior to the trip. But I was asked to recount for them what 
al-Masoudi"had told me about the hostages. 

Q Did you know at that time, or were you told at that 
time that^^^^|and^^^H^|were OEA agents? 

A I think I knew at that tine. I don't know whether 
I knew right then and there, but by the time he got on the 
plane in Atlanta, I knew he was a OEA agent. 

Q Did you have an understanding as to the purpose of 
.accompanying you on the travel to England and then^H 




A I had a very good understanding he was there as a 
passive observer. 

Q A passive observer of what? 

A Of al-Masoudi. 

Q What was supposed to be the product of his observa- 
tion? 

A I don't think much in London, but I think 
he was supposed to keep kind of good tabs on him. 

Q Who reguested^^^^Hto keep good tabs on al-Masoudi? 

A I guess North. 

Q what was the purpose of — if you know--of whyj 
was keeping tabs on al-Masoudi? 

A Well, I think at that point they were treating his 
offer on assistance on theS Ji^ait;}i^s|(f|l|.f)}pf^<|y ly. 



iiresinEir 



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(202) )46-MM 



It 



CLASSIRED 



395 



Q When did you first become aware that al-Masoudi was 
under investigation by the FBI in connection with a check 
that he had bounced at the William Penn Bank? 

A Well, if I can dissect your word, investigation. 

Q Yes. 

A What had happened was, the bank had undergone its 
annual FDIC and state auditor review in 19 — it was fairly 
early on. I think it was like May-June. And of course this 
bad check was on their books, and so the FBI is the inves- 
tigatory arm of these FDIC investigations. And they wanted 
to know about the check. 

My first contact with an FBI agent was when I went 
to Philadelphia to meet with the board of directors. They 
had the FBI agent there in their offices already, and he was 
undergoing a process of investigation at that time. 

I thought that matter was somewhat handled and 
resolved until it became clear that al-Masoudi was not who he 
said he was, and therefore, the check became more likely to 
be fraud, but the next real contact on that subject was when 
FBI agents contacted Colonel North, myself, and then subse- 
quently my brother and his best frieid, and my best friend. 

Q Well, why, if you know, did the FBI agents contact 
your brother and your mutual best friend? 

A We had all — I had borrowed money from my brother 
and his best friend, and from my best friend, in order to meet 



mnmi 



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iMxcn MooarTMa CO.. mc 
507 C 5tre«. N E 25 

Wuhmpoo. D C 20002 
(202) M«.««6« 



UNCLASSIFIED 



396 



what al-Masoudi had described as a registration fee for the 
oil contract. 

Q Is your brother's name Donald Miller? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you recall that Colonel North was first inter- 
viewed by FBI agents about al-Masoudi some time in mid-July 
of 1985? 

A He was contacted initially, I think, and then 
subsequently interviewed, but I think there was a lag period 
between the two of them, and it took me a long time to get 
the FBI agent to call me back. 

Q Was he interviewed at a time when you were overseas' 

A Must have been because I saw the agent shortly 
after I came back. 

Q Did the agent try to contact you when you were 
overseas? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Do you recall IBC's having received messages for 
you from the agent while you were overseas? 

A I don't specifically recall. It's possible. 

Q Did you ever ask Colonel H?rth to respond to FBI 
calls to you, in an effort for them to set up an interview 
with you? 

A I'm sorry. Could you say that again. 

Q Did you ever ask Colonel North to call an FBI agent 



iffort for them to set up 

IIIUSSIFIED 



402 



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liU.111 KVOOniM CO.. MC. 
lOr C Suect. N E 25 

Wuhin(too. DC 20002 
(202) 14«-M6t 



who was having difficulty getting in touch with you? 

A No. It was the other way around. I asked Colonel 
North to get in touch with the FBI agent and ask him to get in 
touch with me because the guy wasn't returning my phone calls. 

Q Do you recall the name of the FBI agent? 

A Kumars ik. 

Q At the time that Kumars ik first interviewed you, to 
the best of your recollection what was your state of mind as 
to the bonafides of al-Masoudi? 

A At that point it was a 50/50 proposition. I had the 
FBI telling me that he may well be a fraud. They weren't 
saying — Kumars ik did not say in the meeting that he was a 
fraud. He simply asked the questions that led me to believe 
that he felt he was. 

And on the other hand, we had the Central Intel- 
ligence Agency saying he probably was who he said he was. 
And everything that seemed to indicate, in my meetings 
overseas with the people who held themselves out as officials 
of the Saudi Arabian government, and other major 
organizations, seemed to indicate that the guy was who he 
said he was. So I thought at best at that point, it was 
about a 50/50 proposition. 

Q Did Colonel North expres 
view as to al-Masoudi 's bonafides? 

A I think that shortly thereafter, that he sent 




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507 C Streei. N E 25 

Vuhuifioti. DC- 20002 
(202) H6-6Ui 



wussm 



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somebody to Jedda, and his words were that his friend went and 
had green tea with the real Jewel, and our guy didn't ever 
register, is what he said. 

Q Was the person that he sent to Jedda to drink this 
green tea Mr. Kopp? 

A I believe it was Mr. Kopp, but I've got very little 
to go on in that belief. 

Q And by Mr. Kopp, at least I am referring to General 
Secord. 

A Yes. 

Q I take it that's your understanding to that as well? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall the date of your first interview with 
the FBI agent? 

A Not specifically. I wouldn't call it much of an 
interview. I wholesale turned over to him all the paperwork 
that I had. In fact I gave him some of my originals of the 
al-Masoudi materials 

Q Did that interview take place in early September 

1985? 

A That sounds about right. Tt was in my office. 

MR. DUDLEY: We're not talking about the meeting in 
Philadelphia? 

THE WITNESS: No, no. In my office. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 



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HUU RCPOmNO CO.. INC. 
!07 C Scretl. N E 25 

Vuhin|iail. O C 20002 
(202) )46.«6M 



NCLASSra 



399 



Q I take it — just to clarify the record — that you had 
a brief conversation with an FBI agent in Philadelphia some 
time, a couple months prior to this at least formal meeting 
with the FBI that took place in your office? 

A Yes. 

Q With Agent Kumars ik from the Washington Field 
Office, is that correct? 

A Correct. And the Philadelphia agent expressed no 
reservation about the guy's identify, so — 

Q Okay. Did you have any discussions with Colonel 
North, that you recall today, about what kind of information 
you would give to the FBI agent, prior to the first interview 
in early September 1985? 

A I don't recall, specifically, a conversation about 
what I would give the agent. 

Q Did Colonel North ask you to hold back any informa- 
tion from the FBI agent? 

A I don't remember him asking me. 

Q Did you tell the FBI agent that the CIA had passed 
on, at least for the time-being, the bonafides of al-Masoudi? 

A I don't recall that, but if it had been done by 
that time I probably would have passed that on to him. 

Q There would have been no conscious_ decision^ on 
your part, not to have held out to the FBI? 

A Well, in all honesty, if I was worried about that, 



lecision, on 

NCIASS! 



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■■LLBI HCTOKTMa CO, Ma 

>07 C Street. NE 25 

Wadunitoo. O C. 20002 
(2a2)Vt6-MM 



M! 



iiAssra 



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I certainly would not have given him all the records I gave 
him. I gave him my originals on several documents and I've 
never gotten them back, so-- 

Q My question a moment ago was, did North ask you to 
withhold any information from the FBI. I just want to 
rephrase it so that we don't get caught up in a semantic 
difference. 

Did North instruct you to withhold any information 
from the FBI in the interview that you had in early September? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did you inform North that this interview was going 
to take place? 

A Probably. 

Q Did you talk with North afterwards about the 
substance of the interview? 

A Yes. 

Q All right. Now from a variety of documentation that 
we have, and some of which we discussed a moment ago — that 
is, the Treasury reports — you continued to deal with al- 
Masoudi for some time after September of 1985, is that 
correct? 

A Yes. 

Q When did you conc^lud^t^ha^ ^l^^Mdaoudi^as in fact an 
imposter? 



mtm 



Well, I knew for sure when whoever it was went to 



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50? C Sum. N E 25 

Wuhiflfion. D C 20002 
(202) V<6-MM 



401 



drink green tea with him, but I can't tell you — 

Q Do you recall when that was? 

A I don't recall the precise date of that. What 
happened after Kumarsik came to see me the first time, was 
that I went to the Library of Congress because I figured that 
their records would be more complete than the McKelden 
Library, and I tried to find as much as I could about Ibrahim 
al-Masoudi, and the genealogical lines that he had implied in 
previous conversations. 

And again I provided that information to North. I 
was very skeptical of him while he was in Geneva, and in fact 
I was preparing to send him a final transfer, and ultimately 
called Kumarsik and said, look, you know, I'm still sending 
this guy money. If you believe him — if you can prove that he 
is not who he says he is, then you'd better tell me now 
because I'm sending him money. 

And Kumarsik said, "I wouldn't send him any more 
money if I were you. I don't think he is who he says he is." 

Q Do you recall when that was? 

A Well, some time in October, I guess. 

Q Was this in late October, jarly November, when in 
fact you did send him some traveler's checks? 

A Probably. But the DEA guys and Kopp continued with 
him for a very short period of time after I was ready to be 
done with him, and it had to do with the hostages, and this-- 



ffliSSIFIFn 



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>07 C SatCT. N E- 2 5 

VldunfTOO. DC. a>002 
{101) )46-MM 






FIED 



402 



something that was going on at the time, and somehow he was 
involved. So there was some activity, even after I knew him 
to be an imposter, and he received some money from me, even 
after I knew him to be an imposter. 

Q Did North encourage you to continue dealing with 
r. 1-Masoudi after you, in your own mind, determined that you 
thought he was an imposter? 

A Actually, he asked me to get out of the middle of 
it, and al-Masoudi kept trying to draw me back into it, and 
North kept asking me to stay out of it, and I agreed to that. 

Q But you did testify that North approved the 
traveler's checks that were sent on November 1st and November 
6th of 1985? 

A Right. 

Q Did you ever have any discussions with North, or 
conversations with North about delaying the investigation 
into al-Masoudi 's bonafides? 

A No. 

Q Did North ever suggest to you that it would be 
best, for any reason, if that investigation were delayed? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did there come a time when you cut off all contact 
and communications with al-Masoudi? 

A Well, I stopped dealing with him I guess the day he 
called me from jail in Geneva. 



UNCUISSinED 



408 



1%'0LA$SIFI£D 



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507CSum. N.E 25 

Vuhmfton. D C. 20002 
(202) M«.6«M 



Q When was that? 

A I think it was some in November. Some time in 
November . 

Q Do you recall a conversation with Agent Kumarsik 
toward the end of October of 1985 in which you told Kumarsik 
that you would completely cooperate with the FBI to attempt 
to lure al-Masoudi to the United States? 

A Yeah. In fact that was the last conversation I was 
recounting to you. Basically what I said to him was, that 
the only person I knew, that he still thought, to his way of 
thinking- -al-Masoudi 's way of thinking — I was the only 
individual that he still believed believed in him. 

And if I had told him that everything was all 
right, come on home, he'd come on home. 

Q Nonetheless, you made some payments of some $14,000 
to al-Masoudi in Geneva after the agreement that you would 
cooperate, and those payments were approved by Colonel North? 

A That's correct. 

MR. KAPLAN: I'm going to ask the reporter to mark 
as Deposition Exhibit 28, a copy of what appears to be a 
Telex from you to a Mr. Robert Vidon, and a Mr. Cockrell at 
the Credit Suisse Banque, in which you inform them that al- 
Masoudi, or anyone purporting to be al-Masoudi, has no 
authority to act in any manner as an agent of IBC. 
THE WITNESS: Correct. 



WM 



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J07 C Street. N E 25 

Vtihuifion. D C. 20002 



mmmi 



404 



BY HR. KAPLAN! 

Q Did IBC have accounts at the Credit Suisse Banque? 

A No, no. al-Masoudi had represented to me that 
these individuals had set up an account for him, and that he 
was going to use the account for his gold and oil transac- 
tions, these transactions for the benefit of the resistance. 

Q Because he had informed you that this contract was 
in the name of International Business Communications, is that 
why you wanted to make clear to these individuals that he had 
no authority to act on their behalf? 

A That's precisely. 

MR. KAPLAN: Off the record for a second. 
[Brief discussion off the record.] 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Have you, Mr. Miller, made a calculation of the 
amount of money that you expended on activities that you 
undertook with al-Masoudi? 

A Yes. 

Q How much money was that? 

A At the present time, in professional and expense 
reimbursements, travel and so forth, it is about $367,000. 

mm kQQKKn 

[Witness and attorney consult.] 

THE WITNESS: The thing that's not calculated in 
that figure is expenses by myself personally, and he lived at 



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VuhiniTon. D C 2000] 
(202) V46.«M6 



UNCLASSIFIED 



405 



niy house for an entire month, and he's a very expensive 
individual . So I have no idea what my personal loss is 
associated with it. 

BY MR. KAPLAN: 

Q Okay. Can you describe, for the record, what sorts 
of items this money was used to pay for. 

A Traveler's checks for his travel overseas, reimbur- 
sement for office expenditures, air-traffic expenses, and in 
the case of one item, $104,000 to his attorneys for the 
reimbursement of forfeiture of a performance bond. 

Q That's the disbursement to Gary Bagdasarian that 
you testified about yesterday? 

A Correct. And 25,000 in good-faith payment to the 
William Penn Bank in Philadelphia. 

Q How much of those expenses, if you know, could be 
allocated or attributed to al-Hasoudi's hostage-rescue 
efforts? 

A I've never separated it out that way. 

Q Approximately. Would it be half of that? 

A I would say that the largest expenditures for al- 
Masoudi came at a time when he had already begun to olfer 



help, and that probably was a pretty significant factor in 
extending him the credit. \\^l \ h\\lf\i 

Q Was North kept regularly apprised of your expenses 



as well as your activities with al-Masoudi? 



411 



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(202) M6-6M« 



WLASSIHED 



406 



A Yes. 

Q Did North approve these expenses? 

A He approved the large ones, in specific, and in 
general, the smaller. 

Q What was the ultimate source of the money expended 
or lost on al-Masoudi? 

A Well, in terms of the 1099-income that I just 
recounted to you, that we have charged him with under a 1099- 

Q Charged who with? 

A al-Masoudi. Most of that money now has been fully 
reimbursed out of the assistance money. 

Q That is the centra-assistance money that was paid 
to IBC by NEPL? 

A By NEPl and other sources . 

Q When you say most of that money has been reimbursed, 
is that separate from the 10 percent charge, or commission 
that you began to take in 1986, and to which you testified 
yesterday, and on June 2 3rd? 

A That's correct. 

Q Who approved, if anyone, the reimbursement from the 
NEPL contra-assistance payments, of these monies expended on 
behalf of al-Masoudi's activities^ -„, ^„ flrtrtiBTf?"P\ 

A colonel North. ll ||U"l5dl M lO 

Q Was there a specific conversation, or conversations 



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407 



with North in which you asked him for reimbursement for these 
losses? 

A Yes. 

Q Did he tell you that you should reimburse yourself 
for these losses from the contra-assistance payments that 
were being made by NEPL to IBC7 

A Yes. 

MR. KAPLAN: I have no further questions. Thank 
you. 

[Whereupon, at 12:15 p.m., the deposition was 
adjourned. ] 



iClilSSIFlEO 



413 



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107 C Sam. N £. 
Vaihiafua. DC. 2000} 
(202) V««4<M 



UNCUSSIFIED 

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY REPORTER 



I, Terry Barham, the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing transcript 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me and thereaftrer reduced to typewriting by me or 
under my supervision; that said deposition transcript is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I an 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action. 



^ — Terry 
and for 



My commission expires May 15, 1989. 



Birhanij^^Wotary Pu 
orj th^TDistrict of 



Public in 
Columbia 



UNWSSIFIED 



415 



BNWssro 

ORCUSSIFIED 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Tuesday, September 15, 1987 
Washington, D.C. 
Deposition of RICHARD RODERICK MILLER taken on 
behalf of the Select Committees above cited, pursuant to 
notice, commencing at 9:30 a.m. in Room 901 of the Hart 
Senate Office Building, before Ronald Meek, a notary public 
in and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 
For the House Select Committee: 



THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 
SPENCER OLIVER, Esq. 
VICTOR ZANGLA, Esq. 



For the Senate Select Committee 
KEN BUCK, Esq. 




Partially Declassified/Released on A?- :£^ - P7 
under provisions of E.O. 12356 
by N. Menan, National Security Council 



midssw 



mujui iwp um iNO eo- wc 

Kl C imn. N E 

Vuhufoo. O C 20002 



H^ 



416 



KUiSSue 



MUXK HVOimiM CO.. MC. 
507 C Suitt. N E 
Vuhington. O C :0002 
fjnn A.'A-AM6 



For the deponent: 

RONALD G. PRECUP, Esq. 
Nussbaum, Owen & Webster 
One Thomas Circle 
Washington, D. C. 20005 



CONTENTS 




Examination by counsel for 


Paqe 


House Select Committee 


411 


EXHIBITS 




Exhibits 


Marked 


29 


441 


30 


4)2 


31 


532 


32 


•'-•• 


33 


(=25 



HMUssro 



; - ■» .\ J 



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ONCUISSIHEO 



411 



Whereupon, 

RICHARD RODERICK MILLER 
was called as a witness and, having previously been duly 
sworn, was further examined and further testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR 

THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, this is a continuation of your prior 
deposition before the Senate and House Select Committees. 
You are still under subpoena, and the immunity orders of the 
two Committees which have been marked as exhibits, continue 
to be applicable to this session today, and I again remind 
you that you are still under oath from your previous sessions. 

By this first question, you will know inw^ we are in 
this secure room. 

Mr. Miller, have you ever been employed by, or have 
you ever been a contract agent for any intelligence agency, 
including the National Security Agency or the National 
Security Council, or any intelligence branch of any depart- 
ment or agency? 

A No, other than the business relationship which I've 
already described to you with Oliver North, and the short 



period I worked for the Federal Preparedness Agency at GSA 



<N 



which was about three months. That doesn't qualify as an 
intelligence agayar, j^ft '^ ^qn jmw^^^ the FEMA, Federal 



n(!r/«?i?M 



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art412 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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>07 C SuCTi. N E 
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Emergency Management Administration. 

Q Well, your work with Colonel North, did you 
consider that work to be work for an intelligence agency? 

A No. 

Q Did you consider yourself to be a contract agent 
for any intelligence agency? 

A No. 

Q Were you ever present in Colonel North's office 
when he placed a telephone call to Bunker Hunt? 

A I think I was present in his office when he called 
Bunker Hunt. I remember the specifics of his conversation, 
but I can't tell you whether I was there, or whether he 
repeated it to me. 

Q Was it your understanding that at the time Colonel 
North had this telephone conversation with Bunker Hunt, that 
William Casey was present in Mr. Hunt's office? 

A That's correct, although I'm not sure it was the 
of£J.ce. I was under the impression it was his house. 

Q How did you know this? 

A He told me. 

Q Colonel North told you? 

A Colonel North told me. That's right. 

Q What did he tell you about this conversation? 

A He told me that he called — he recited, I think, 
three of the four items that I asked him to discuss with Mr. 



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Hunt, and Mr. Hunt said "I have a friend of yours here," and 
Ollie said he said who's that, and he said, "Bill Casey, • and 
Ollie said, "Give him my regards." And I don't think he 
recounted that he and Casey actually talked. 

Q What were the items that you had asked Colonel 
North to discuss with Mr. Hunt? 

A I have to do it from memory. They're on a piece of 

paper that you've already got in your exhibits. But that 

there was an ongoing — the basic thrust was that there was an 

ongoing supply effort, and that Bunker's money had helped to I 

j 
produce that, and what was needed was the second half of his ! 

contribution. j 

! 
Q Do you recall when this conversation occurred? j 

A All I can remember is that he was in his old 
office. I don't remember a specific date. 

Q When did he leave his old office, as you recall? 

A I don't remember, specifically. 
- Q Did Colonel North tell you Mr. Hunt's response to 
these matters that he had raised with him? 

A I don't recall any commitment coming out of the 
conversation from Mr. Hunt. I don't remember any commitment 
by Mr. Hunt as a result of the conversation, although at a 
later, much shorter period of time from then, he did make 
good on the second half of his contribution. 

Q Did Co^<iq^i^grtJi^^a<V^.%Si.^^ anything that Mr. 



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Hunt had said in this conversation? 

A The only thing I can remember is what I've just 
told you. 

Q With respect to the presence of Mr. Casey? 

A Correct. That's not uncharacteristic of Mr. Hunt, 
either. He tends to be much more of a listener than a 
speaker. 

Q Did Colonel North say anything to you with respect 
to why Mr: Casey was in Mr. Hunt's office at that time?- 

A No. 

Q Mr. Miller, do you recall any discussions with 
Frank Gomez about what I will describe as the "contra- 
assistance network" or the group of bank accounts of IBC, IC, 
Inc., and NEPL, and Mr. Gomez's reservations about the use of 
these accounts for transferring funds? 

A I would say that Frank expressed a reluctance to be 
involved in the private funding, initially because it involved 
IBC directly, and I think we were agreed that that was 
something to be changed. And then, ultimately, I think he 
did it for personal commitment reasons to the cause, but 
again, I think with some reservation, and I think I prevailed 
upon him because I was convinced that — and I think he was con- 
vinced--there wasn't anybody else to do it at the time. 

Q Was that the argioment you made to him as to why you 
should do it? 



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A Yes. I 

Q Did you make any other arguments? | 

I 

A Not that I recall. In fact I don't remember that [ 

one in specific terms, but I'm pretty certain that was the | 

I 

thrust of my appeal to him. 

Q Why did you believe that you and your organizations j 
were the only person and entity that could do this? ] 

A We were very familiar with the other political 
organizations that were involved, and none of them seemed to 
be directing raw financial resources to the resistance. A 
lot of them were spending money on political activities, but 
nobody was giving money, or working to raise money and give 
it directly to the resistance. A lot of people claimed they | 
were, but it wasn't happening. 

So there seemed to be nobody else doing it, and 
Colonel North seemed to be in desperate need of somebody to do 
it, and those two things led me to conclude that. 

- Q As I understand your prior testimony. Colonel North 
merely asked you to provide a bank account, or bank accounts, 
where monies could be deposited, and from which he could 
direct disbursement from the accounts . 

Is that, in substance, what he asked you, or the 
assistance that he asked you to provide? 

A No, I don't think so, because our involvement with 
the financial end really started with al-Massoudi, which was 



end really started with . 

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far more complicated than that, and progressed through 
actually going out and raising funds, by virtue of the 
conversations with John Ramsey at what seemed to be critical 
moments in Colonel North's timetable. 

And he was quite clear that we were involved from 
the beginning with a fund-raising effort, and I'm sure he 
understood that that entailed much more than just setting up 
bank accounts . 

Q .You recall, do you not, Mr. Miller, and you have 
testified about, have you not, a meeting that you attended 
with Colonel North and Mr. Channell in July of 1985, where 
there was a discussion of how funds would be transferred that 
were raised by NEPL? 

A Yes. 

Q It was at this dinner meeting that Colonel North 
told Mr. Channell that the funds should be transferred to the 
IBC account, or to one of your accounts? 
. A Correct . 

Q You understood from Colonel North, that you would 
follow his directions about the disbursements of the funds 
transferred to you from Mr. Channell, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Now, following that conversation, funds transferred 
by Mr. Channell to your accounts exceeded several million 
dollars, did they not? 



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A That's correct. 

Q What was the amount of funds that you were respon- ! 
sible for raising directly for the contras? Was it under 1 

$100,000? I 

I 

A I don't think you can place it in that context 
because we were responsible to Mr. Channell for activities and| 
work assignments that led to him raising that money. So if 
you would like to take all the millions of dollars and take 
some percentage of it, I might try and agree with you, but I 
can't put a number on that. 

Q But the contributions that you asked for yourself 
totalled less than $100,000, did they not? 

A What do you mean, "asked for myself"? 

Q Well, did you ever ask a contributor, or ask anyone 
to contribute funds for the purpose of assisting the Nicara- 
guan resistance? 

A Yeah. I made the direct appeal to John Ramsey on 
two occasions. We had the direct appeal to Mrs. Newington on 
another occasion. Those were the only times I actually asked 
somebody for money. The rest of the times I was present, or 
a large number of the rest of the times X was present. 

Q So with respect to the responsibility for maintain- 
ing an account to receive funds from Mr. Channell, and to 
disburse funds from that account pursuant to the direction of 
Colonel North, to perform those functions it was not necessary 

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to have any relationship with the political figures in the 
Nicaraguan resistance, or to have any relationship with 
contributors, was it not? 

A I'm afraid I don't understand your question. If 
your implication is that that activity was somehow discon- 
nected from the rest of the activities that we performed for 
Mr. Channell, or Colonel North, or the political resistance, 
I totally disagree with that. 

Q Well, Mr. Miller, whether it was disconnected, or 
not, it was not necessary, in order to operate these two 
accounts, and receive funds from Mr. Channell and disburse 
funds according to the direction of Colonel North, that you 
have any relationship with members of the resistance, or that 
you have any relationship with Mr. Channel! 's contributors, 
was it? 

MR. PRECUP: Objection. Mr. Fryman, would you 
reformulate that. I think the witness is having trouble with 
the word "necessary. " Necessary on what basis? I think 
he's explained as a matter of fact what occurred, and has 
also testified that that was an important connection on all 
ends of those fronts, for him. So it's very difficult for 
him to deal with the word "necessary" which may be used in a 
vacuum. 

MR. FRYMAN: All right. Mr. Precup, what I am 
trying to do i|_li»^ follow upon his prior answer, where he 



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said that he explained to Mr. Gomez, that if Mr. Miller and 
IBC did not perform this function that had been requested by 
Colonel North, there was no one else to do it. 

What I fail to understand is what was unique about 
Mr. Miller's situation, or IBC's situation, and why someone 
else could not do that, and that's my ojb^oct ^ ron in"a^«^line 
of questioning. 

MR. PRECUP: Well, perhaps the witness could answer 
that general inquiry of yours. 

THE WITNESS: Well, as I told you previously, I am 
very conversant, and we were at the time very conversant with 
the other organizations who were capable of raising money and 
working with fund-raisers, and working with the resistance 
figures, and who had Colonel North's trust, and I didn't feel 
there was anybody else out there who had the right elements 
to do this . 

I didn't see anybody else, and I guess Ollie North 
didn't either, because I don't get the feeling he asked many 
other people. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Well, I have to then press the question, Mr. 
Miller. What difference did it make, whether or not you had 
had any relationship with these organizations? Colonel North 
was instructing Mr. Channel! to transfer funds to a specific 
account, and ¥#V5*ik19 jfc^'Spr prior testimony, he was giving 



to_your prior t 



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you instructions about specific accounts to which you were to 
transfer funds. I 

Now what difference does it make as to whether you 
had had any prior relationship with anyone in order to 
perform those two functions? 

A Well, if I gave it 30 minutes of thought I'd come up 
with a longer list, but I think the principal elements were 
the trust that he had in us. I think they were the trust that 
Mr. Channe'll had in us, and I think it was the trust that the 
resistance figures and the political entities had in us — were 
we to become known as we were, eventually, by some of these 
people — that they would not be upset, or they would not be 
overly concerned about the involvement that we had. And all 
those things turned out to be correct. 

And so, I think at the time, it was an intuitive 
decision, but I think it was accurate, because, ultimately, 
all of them became aware of our responsibility and none of 
them seemed to have voiced much distress about it. 

Q When did you understand that the resistance 
figures, or any of the resistance figures became aware that 
the NEPL funds were being transferred into bank accounts 
controlled by you, and disbursed by you? 

A In terms of having NEPL funds transferred, I would 
say not until November or December of this past year. 

funds that you were trans- 



Q Well, 



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f erring, other than NEPL funds? 

A Yes. 

Q What were those? 

A The Heritage Foundation $100,000. S60,000 from a 
gentleman by the name of MacAleer, and I have yet to know 
who, exactly, that is. And another gentleman by the name of 
Barness. But you asked the question in terms of transferring 
NEPL funds. 

They were aware, long before then, and in different 
times, that we were responsible for transferring funds. 

Q So you say that you're not aware that any resistance 
figure was aware of your role in transferring NEPL funds prior 
to November of 1986? 

A Well, let me put a finer point on it than that. 
They were not aware that they were NEPL funds that were being 
transferred to them. I would say with the sole exception of 
Adolf o Calero^who had some indication that — well, he had 
received checks directly from NEPL, and he had received checks 
as_a result of fund-raising activities. But in terms of our 
transferring NEPL funds and the funds being known as NEPL 
money, he'd be the sole exception until November or December. 

Q When do you understand that Mr. Calero first became 
aware that you were transferring funds to him from one of 
your accounts? 

A I had_a jnfiaj:i|g^j4i|^4^f\ the Connecticut Club 



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INCUSSinED 



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Hotel in late October or November of '86, and in that 
meeting, per Colonel North's instructions, I was to get from 
him a bank account number, and corporate name to carry out a 
transfer, both Colonel North and I knowing that I already 
knew it, and this was simply Mr. Calero giving it to me 
without knowing that I had been the person transferring it 
before. 

Q So the first time you believe that Mr. Calero was 
aware that one of your accounts was the source of funds' 
transferred to him was October or November 1986? 

A No. Now you've changed your question. We trans- 
ferred from IBC to the NDC, very early on in the process, 
money that was a result of NEPL fund-raising, and actually 
went — I gave the check to — i think it was Bosco Matamoros, 
and I think it was $25,000. 

Q Well, what did you understand was the significance 
of this conversation you just described in October or November 
of -1986? 

A It was the first time that Mr. Calero was aware 
that we were responsible for transferring money, large sums 
of money into his accounts from overseas bank accounts. 

Q How much money did you transfer to Mr. Calero after 
October or November 19867 

A We made, I believe, a $75,000 transfer and an 
$80,000 transfer. That's off the top of my head. I don't 



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have the documents in front of me. 

Q Your explanation to Mr. Gomez as to why your 
organization should perform these services was simply that 
there was no one else that could do it? 

A Well, as I said, I think that was the principal 
thrust of my argument to him. I'm sure there were other 
elements involved. 

Q That's what you recall today? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you ever discuss the propriety or legality of 
your organization being involved in these transfers with Mr. 
Gomez? 

A I may have reported back to him on my conversations 
with the tax attorney at the time of the al-Massoudi business, 
and I probably discussed the neutrality ^ct at some point 
with him, because that was, again, our principal focus in that 
timeframe. 

- Q Did you discuss the neutrality act with any 
attorney? 

A Not in that timeframe, no. Actually, I considered 
Frank more expert in that than me, after 20 years of foreign 
service. 

Q The consultation with the tax attorney that you 
referred to did not concern the transfers of Mr. Channell and 
the -ii nhiiT-comonhg, j^rffl||-fH^hj|^r;gy^y|^HQr-»h9 xhe specific 



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consultation related to your prior involvement with al- 
Massoudi, is that correct? 

A I think you're asking me to discuss matters that I 
discussed with my attorney at the time. I'm responsible to 
answer that? 

[Counsel and witness confer.] 

THE WITNESS: Okay. The questions with the 
attorneys involved not just al-Massoudi, but also the 
legality of handling the accounts, and the way they wer^ 
handled. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Did you have any discussion with attorneys about 
transfers through the IBC and the Cayman Islands account, 
after your meeting with Colonel North and Mr. Channell in 
July of 1985? 

A I mean that's all the way up till today. 

MR. FRECUP: Yes, it is. We really need an end 
date on that, so as not to impinge on the attorney-client 
privilege. 

THE WITNESS: Is there a specific timeframe that 
you're referring to? 

MR. FRYMAN: Let's say during the period beginning 
July 1985 through November 1986. 

THE WITNESS: And would you repeat the question. 

(The reporter read back the pending question.] 



reporter reaa oacK tne per 

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THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

When were those discussions? 

May of 1986. 

And who was the attorney? 

Earl Dudley. I think that's right, isn't it? May? 

Any other discussions with an attorney during the 

time period July 1985 through November 1986? 

A ^ot that I can recall. 

Q Mr. Miller, in one of your prior days of testimony, 

you stated that you were asked to provide money that was used 

in an effort to obtain the release of hostages held in 

Lebanon. 

Who asked you to provide such funds? 

A Well, Colonel North indirectly. As I recall, the 

money was requested by al-Massoudi while he was in Geneva, 

and I confirmed with Colonel North that it was appropriate, 

and I undertook the transfers. 

Q How much money was involved? 

A Well, I can specifically remember one transfer of 

about $18,000 was involved. There was another time when 

there was about ^J.0, 000 in airline tickets, and the latter 
A 

portion of al-Massoudi 's stay in Geneva was predominantly 
because he was supposedly involved in this . So whatever 
money he spent in that period would have been to that end. 



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Q What wa3 the approximate date of this request? 

A September. 

Q Of 19857 

A That's correct. 

Q The request came directly to you from al-Massoudi? 

A As I recall, that's correct. 

Q What was explained to you about the purpose for 

which these funds were needed? 

,fl 
A '\15,000 had to do with the effort to secure the 

A 

release of the hostages, and I don't remember anything 
specific about it, and, as I recall, ^3500 was for living 
expenses, and I can't right now remember whether it was al- 
Massoudi's oif ^^^^^^^^^HIP^ ^9^"^ r °^ ^^^ agent, that was 



there. 

Q Was the $15,000, to your understanding, to be paid 
to the persons holding the hostages? 

A I don't believe so. I mean, if that was the case, 
it -wasn't said to me. 

Q Was there any explanation given to you about what 
was to be done with the )^15, 0007 

A No. 

Just that they needed ^15, 0007 

Yes. 

i 
You said there was a later 10,0007 



A" 



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Q What explanation was given to you about the need 
for that money? 

A I think it was primarily for air travel involved 
with al-Massoudi and some associate of his, and I don't know, 
maybe some DEA people. 

Q Now were both requests in generally the same time 
period, in the fall of 1985, or around September of 1985? 
A They were almost all of them in the fall of 1985. 
Q .Fall of 1985. Mr. Miller, has your organization 
been involved in preparing a study of fund-raising efforts 
within the United States for either the Sandinisca govern- 
ment, or entities sympathetic to the Sandinista government? 

A We prepared a white paper for Mr. Channel 1 on 
general activities, including fund-raising, and political 
activities by members of the left wing in the United States. 
Q When was this prepared? 

A I think we transmitted it to him in April. 
. Q Of 1987? 

A That's correct. And we worked on it for about five 
weeks, I think. 

Q How long a paper was it? 

A It was in inches. The entire report to him was 
about eight or nine inches tall, including the appendix, and 

- JNCLASSIflEP 

Q Did you identify in this white paper a number of 



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organizations in the United States that had been involved in 
fund-raising? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall the number of organizations? 

A No, but there were hundreds of them. 

Q Hundreds? 

A Hundreds . Yes . 

Q Over a thousand? 

A It seems to me that there's over a thousand. I'm 
not sure that a thousand are in my report, but there are 
about a thousand organizations. 

Q How did you develop this information? 

A Mostly from existing written materials from 
computer data bases, and through research, and interviews 
with members of the House and Senate staffs. 

Q Which House staff members did you interview? 

A I'd have to talk to the researcher that handled it, 
but they talked to some of the Senate Foreign Relations 
stjiff, and I believe they talked to some people on the House 
Foreign Affairs Committee staff, but I don't know who. 

Q Who was the researcher who handled this? 

A Fran Jacobawitz. And also Jeff Keffer of my staff. 

Q You were paid to do this by Mr. Channell? 

A That's correct. 

Q How much did he pay you? 



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A I believe it was 15, or maybe\l2,000. I'd have to 
look at the invoice. 

Q Did Mr. Channell indicate to you what use he 
intended to make of this? 

A His concern was that there was a lot of political 
attacYtaking place against him by members of Congress who 
were ignoring similar activities by people on the left. 

Q What use did you understand he was to make of this 
report? 

A He was supposed to use it to go to contributors and 
attempt to raise money for a larger public-affairs effort in 
the area of Central America. 

Q Did you provide Mr. Channell with a number of copies 
of the report? 

A As I recall, I provided him three copies. 

Q You kept a copy, I take it? 

A I believe I did, yes. I'm not sure I kept all the 
appendixes, although I'm sure they're interstrewn in the 
files. A lot of what we put in there was stuff that we'd 
accumulated over the last three or four years — mailings by 
other organizations, materials attached in forms, and 
debates; things we received by requesting a mail copy of 
something. 

Q Did you suggest this project to Mr. Channell? 

A No. In fact I think it was his suggestion. 

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Q Did you ever discuss with Mr. Channell making this 
report available to any Members of Congress? 

A No. In fact, my counsel was that if it were made 
available to Members of Congress, it would be an open 
declaration of war between the left and the right, and that 
the struggle was already screwed up enough, and it didn't 
need to be that politicized, and my recommendation was that 
it not be used as a political weapon. That was what I 
remember my counsel to him being. 

Q Are you suggesting by your answer that there was, 
then, a discussion with Mr. Channell about whether or not it 
should be made available to Members of Congress? 

A Absolutely, and in public. Mr. Channell wanted to 
make it a public doctunent, and I did not. 

Q Did anyone else participate in this discussion? 

A Maybe Dan Kuykendall. I don't know whether Frank 
ever participated in them or not. I don't remember whether 
he >as ever present. 

Q Did you ever receive any information from any 
source indicating that Mr. Channell ever made a copy of this 
report available to any Member of Congress? 

A No. 

Q Did you ever receive any information from any 
source that Mr. Channell ev«r made this regogt^vaj^laillfi to 
any Congressional staff member? 




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A No. 

Q Mr. Miller, in the prior sessions we have discussed 
the consulting arrangement that you firm entered into with 
David Fischer and Martin Artiano, and I believe it was agreed 
that that arrangement was originally entered into in December 
of 1985? 

A Correct . 

Q Did you consult with Oliver North about retaining 
David Fischer or Martin Artiano? 

A No. In fact I don't even think they were aware of 
it until late in '86. 

Q When you say "they were aware of it," who are you 
referring to? 

A I mean he was not aware of it. 

Q It's your understanding that Colonel North was not 
aware that you had retained Fischer and Artiano until late 
1986? 

. A Yes. I don't think he understood that until I told 
hia that, and I don't think that was until some time in at 
least the middle of '86. 

Q Did you discuss with anyone in the White House the 
retention of Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano? 

A I don't recall discussing it with anybody. 
Q Do you know if Colonel North had ever met David 
Fischer prior to December of 1985? 



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A I really don't. I've never fiSSW either one of 
them say either way. 

Q Do you know if Colonel North had met Martin Artiano 
prior to December of 1985? 

A I'm not sure — no, no. 

Q Do you recall a $50,000 payment that was made to 
Mr. Artiano in January or February of 1986? 

A I recall payments to him, without looking at the 
records, if you say there was a $50,000 payment in January, 
I'm sure there was. 

Q We'll get to the records in a minute, but do you 
have an independent recollection of a $50,000 payment in 
early 1986? 

A I remember making a $50,000 payment to Mr. Artiano. 

Q And was there a later $50,000 payment to Mr. 
Fischer? 

A 
- Q 

A 

Q 



There may well have been. 

Do you recall that? 

Not specifically, but there may have been. 

You do specif ically recall a $50,000 payment to Mr. 
Artiano early in 1986? 

A Well, if you would like to put the records in front 
of me, I'll look at them. I don't specifically remember a 
$50,000 transfer to Mr. Fischer, but if you say one_Jiappened , 
I'll simply take your word for it 



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Q , Well, my last question related to the payment to - 
Mr. Artiano, which I thought you said, in a prior answer, you 
did recall a payment to Mr. Artiano. 

A I recall a payment to Mr. Artiano for $50,000. 

Q What was the purpose of that payment? 

A It was a cash call by Mr. Artiano on our agreed 
arrangement and he could have made it for $70,000 if he had 
wanted to, but $50,000 was the figure he wanted and needed. 

Q "What do you mean by a cash call? 

A They had the right, under the contract that we had 
with them, to require the payment in whatever tiaachtj-^they 
wished and sometimes it was $10,000, sometimes it was 
$20,000, sometimes it was larger. 

Q Under your understanding of the contract, they 
could have called for the full payment under the contract in 
January of 19867 

A No, I don't think 1 would have allowed that. There 
was. a lot of work yet to be done under the contract. I 
certainly wouldn't have allowed them to call the whole 
contract before they'd finished the work on it. 

Q But $50,000 was within range, in your view? 
Yes. 

Did you understand that to be an advance? 
No, I didn't consider it an advance. 



What's the difference between a cash call and an 

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advance? 

A I've never made a distinction between the two. The 
only thing I use the word cash call in that they were allowed 
to decide the amounts that were to come to them, within 
reason, and that's just an informal term on my part, cash 
call. 

Q Did you make payments to Mr. Fischer in 1987? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall the amounts? 

A $70,000 and $35,000, I believe. 

Q And do you recall the months that those payments 
were made? 

A No, I don't recall if off the top of my head. 

Q Was it early in 1987? January or February? 

A I think it went over a couple of months and that 
may be the case but, without looking at the records, I don't 
remember the specific dates. 

. Q What was the reason that you paid Mr. Fischer 
$105,000 in 1987? 

A That was the amount that was remaining on our 
original agreement and he asked for it and so I paid it to 
him. 

Q Did you make any payments to Mr. Artiano in 1987? 



Yes. 



How much? 



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A I can't remember off the top of my head but they 
were in $10,000 or $5,000 increments. 

Q What was the reason for those payments? 

A That was additional consultation on the part of — 
the $5,000 was additional consultation on the part of Mr. 
Artiano for business development. 

Q In 1987? 

A Yes. 

Q 'What subjects did you consult with Mr. Artiano 
about in 1987? 

A Well, we tried to keep him, generally, aware of the 
business opportunities we had and we sought his counsel and 
advice and when possible, we tried to involve him in our 
decisions to get clients. That was business development. 

Q At some point, did you stop using Mr. Artiano 's 
services in 1987? 

A Yes. 
. Q When was that? 

A I can't recall specifically what date it was. 

Q Why did you stop? 

A We just had no more use for it. 

Q Did Mr. Fischer perform any services for you in 



1987? 



Oh, yes. 

What did he do? 



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A Well, he generally served as a partner in the firm, 
provided the same kind of workload that the rest of us did. 
Q And was the $105,000 his total compensation from 
you in 1987? 
A No. 

Q What else did you pay him? 

A Again, off the top of my head, without the records 
in front of me, I can't remember a specific number but we 
made several payments or received, from him, payments which 
represented a net sum from the client. In other words, a i 
client would pay his corporation and his corporation would 
then transfer IBC's share to IBC. J 

Q But the $105,000 was compensation to Mr. Fischer and| 
in return for that compensation, he has been providing 
services for you during 1987? 

MR. PRECUP: Excuse me. I don't believe that was 
the witness's prior testimony. 
THE WITNESS: No. 

MR. PRECUP: He did characterize that $105,000 
payment, but not as compensation for current services. 

THE WITNESS: That was the remaining amount — 
$105,000 was the remaining amount due to Mr. Fischer for our 
original contract on the NEPL ac^ivities^ 
BY MR. FRYMAN 

Q And this was the agreement that you reached in 

I 



lEPL activities. 

UNCUSSIFIED 



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December of 1985? ! 

I 

I 

A Correct. | 

I 
Q And what period of time was that agreement to cover?! 

A It was for six months and it was agreed that it was | 
representative of 24 months of $20,000 a month. 

Q So the agreement was for 24 months? 

A That's correct. Two years. 

Q And that would continue until December of 19877 

A That's correct, but they had the right to make cash 
calls along the way, within reason. 

Q But you had the right to call on Mr. Fischer's 
seri^ices until December of 1987 for the $280,000 you were 
going to pay him--or the $480,000, correct? 

A No. By 1987, we were involved in other efforts 
already. As I said, the $105,000 was paid for past activities 
for NEPL and the compensation that you are asking me about 
now in 1987 was for other business unassociated with NEPL. 

. Q Well, Mr. Miller, as I understand your testimony, 
you reached an agreement with Mr. Fischer that he was to 
provide services for 24 months, is that correct? 

A No. The financial commitment from us was for 2 4 
months worth of $20,000 a month. 

Q And that's unrelated to his doing any work for 24 
months? 

A No. Ms.i^bacaeL acd^LBCji^aulred a large workload 



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by Mr. Artiano and Mr. Fischer in the first seven months, but 
initially, that first six months of 1986 there was a tremen- 
dous workload and the commitment that we were required to 
make to Mr. Artiano and Mr. Fischer, was for two years at 
$2 0,000 a month. 

Q So, am I correct in understanding your testimony 
that you are saying that in effect, Mr. Fischer had completed 
his 24 months of work by January of 1987? 

A ,Yes. You keep interjecting the word work, when I'm 
talking about compensation. 

Q Are the two unrelated in your mind? 

A The two are unrelated in terms of my financial 
commitment to Mr. Fischer, which is what you're asking me 
about . 

Q So you made a financial commitment to him that was 
unrelated to his performing any services for you, is that 
what you're saying? 

A No. 

MR. PRECUP: Mr. Fryman, that isn't what he said. 
Don't misfcharacterize his testimony. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I'm trying to understand his 
testimony, Mr. Precup, and I'm finding it somewhat difficult 
to understand it. 

BY MR. FRYMAM: 

Q Now, I'ji Just tJ^Yinfl to^_g®t clear. As I understand | 



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it, you reached an agreement with Mr. Fischer in December of 
1985, to cover a period of 24 months. 

A A financial commitment to Mr. Fischer and Mr. 
Artiano for $20,000 a month for 24 months. That's correct. 

Q Or a total of $480,000? 

A That's correct. 

Q Now, were they to provide services for that amount 
of money? 

A Yes and they did. 

Q Were those services to cover any particular period 
of time? 

A About six months worth of intense activity, yes. 

Q So they were to be paid $480,000 for six months of 
work, is that what you're saying? 

A That's correct. 

Q And that six months' work had been completed by 
January of 19877 

A That's correct. 

Q And when you paid him $105,000, you in effect, were 
paying him for services that he had already rendered? 

A That's correct. 

Q Okay. So Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano were, in 
effect, being compensated a total of $480,000 for six months 
work, or $80,000 a month? 

A I don't accept it. What was required of me. 



t accept it. What was r« 

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because we were monopolizing., particularly, Mr. Fischer's 
time for that seven months, but predominantly six months in 
early 1986, was a commitment to them for 24 months, $20,000 a 
month. It was not financially possible to make that commit- 
ment without passing it along to the client that required the 
work. 

Q Mr. Miller, as I understand what you have said, you 
made a commitment to pay Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano $480,000. 

A That's correct. 

Q And you understood that they had performed the 
services, under that agreement, within a period of six months? 

A Yes. 

Q And you owed them $480,000 for six months' work? 

A That's correct. 

Q And according to my arithmetic, that works out to 
$80,000 a month. 

A Well, that's your arithmetic. 

Q Do you disagree with the arithmetic? 

A I've already told ycu I disagree with it. What I 
made to them was a commitment for $20,000 a month for 24 
months . And that was the substance of the commitment to 
them. Now, you can divide it up any way you want, but that 
was my commitment to them. 

Q Just to make sure you and I are on the same wave 
length about the elements in the equation, the total amount 



elements in the equation 

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of funds is $480,000? 
A Correct. 

Q And the total months of service was six months? 
A That's correct also. 

Q And in addition to the $480,000 commitment, you had 
a separate arrangement with Mr. Artiano for him to provide 
additional services directly for IBC, I believe you testified. 
A Correct. 

Q , And you had separate financial arrangements with 
Mr. Fischer, with regard to additional services. 
A That's correct also. 
Q Off the record. 

[Brief pause off the record.] 

MR. FRYMAN: All right, we will start with Exhibit 
29 and see what happens. It appears from the prior transcript 
of Mr. Miller's deposition, that the last exhibit marked was 
Number 28. I would ask the reporter then to mark, as Miller 
Deposition Exhibit 29 for identification, a report that has 
b««n prepared by accountants for the House and Senate 
Committees, which summarizes financial data and bank records 
of International Business Communications, INTEL Corporation, 
Gomez International, Miller Communications, and World Affairs 
Counselors, Inc. This report is dated September 14, 1987 and 

contains 35 pages 
f ' ' ^ '•■* 

i 

b 



I 35 pages. 

ililASSinEI^ 



he documents referred to were 



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marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
29. ) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, I show you Exhibit 29 for identifica- 
tion. You will notice that the first sheet is headed 
Analysis 3-A, which is a summary sheet of the statement of 
cash receipts and disbursements for the period January 1985 
to Decembet 1986. The next sheet is a similar summary sheet 
which is headed Analysis 3-C, which is an analysis of 
disbursements to other organizations for the same period. 
There is no sheet headed Analysis 3-B, you will note. The 
third sheet is headed Analysis 3-D and is an analysis of 
receipts for the IBC-af filiated companies for the same period. 
Then following that there are further sheets, three 
summary sheets relating to the IBC account, one summary sheet 
relating to the IC account, one summary sheet relating to 
Midler Communications, and one summary sheet relating to 
Gomez International. Following those summary sheets are then 
a number of detailed sheets listing the components of the 
various accounts that are summarized on the prior sheets. 
Now, let's go off the record for a second. 



[Brief pause off the_reco^rd^ ] 
5 " " 



illiiSSflE 



BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, if you would first turn in Exhibit 29 



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to page 10, you will notice, on that page, toward the bottom, 
the report indicates that there were payments to IBC of 
$22,500 from an entity called ESOP Associates. Are you 
familiar with ESOP Associates? 

MR. PRECUP: Before the witness answers, Mr. 
Fryman, I want to say for the record that we object to the 
use of this exhibit for questioning the witness on a wide 
number of bases. The document appears, in its 35 pages here, 
to be other than complete in that, for example, it has • 
analyses 3-A, C and D, but no 3-B, not to mention 1 and 2, 
whatever they might be. It is impossible, on a brief 
examination, to deteonnine whether this is a correct and 
complete analysis, let alone an accurate one of the accounts 
it purports to review. 

It contains characterizations throughout of payee's 
sources of funds and the like. He, of course, assume that 
the math is correct, but that's an assumption because we have 
not. had a chance to check it ourselves. We don't know what 
records in total were used to produce this nor what biases 
existed in the persons who did produce it and who are not 
here for us to question. 

Hence, we do not — the witness does not adopt any 
part of this exhibit as a true description of any kind of 
reality. With all that said, should anything you care to 
point out to him in this document refreshes recollection 

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pendently, about a transaction or an event, I, of course, 
have no objection to the witness answering that question. 
MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Precup, as I indicated when I 
marked the document as an exhibit, I'm not asking Mr. Miller 
to adopt this analysis as being in its entirety correct. I'm 
merely marking it as an exhibit. I'm representing that it is 
the analysis prepared by our accountants and I intend to use 
it as a basis for putting specific questions to Mr. Miller. 
BY MR. FRYMAN; 

Q The pending question, Mr. Miller, is derived from 
page 10, but I can really ask you the question independently 
of page 10. Are you aware that IBC received funds from an 
entity called ESOP Associates? 

A Yes. 

Q What is that entity? 

A It's actually called the ESOP Association and it's 
the employee stock ownership program association in Washing- 
toa« 

Q And were they a client of IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall if, in 1985, they paid fees to your 
organization in the range of $22,500? 

A We were paid $22,500 for the execution of a general 
public -affairs program. Some of that was fees; some of that 
was program expenditures. As I recall, we refunded about 

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$12,SO0 to them. I think that's correct.. I can't remember 
the figures specifically. 

Q If you would look at page 18, Mr. Miller, you will 
notice that there is reflected there a payment by IBC to ESOP 
Associates of $13,690. Is that amount consistent with your 
recollection of the amount that was paid back to that client? 

A We only made one payment to ESOP so that would have 
to be it if that's an accurate reflection of my business 
records. ' 

Q Was the payment that you made back to them approxi- 
mately in November of 1985, according to your recollection? 

A Yes. 

Q Am I correct in understanding that the fees that 
you received from this client had nothing to do with your 
work in connection with the Nicaraguan Resistance? 

A That's correct. 

Q If you would look again at page 10, there's a 
reference to Calero traveler's checks and there's a number of 
entries indicating that in April of 1985, you received 
$35,000 from Mr. Calero. Is that consistent with your 
recollection that you received that amount of money from Mr. 
Calero in April of 1985? 

MR. PRECUP: Excuse me, Mr. Fryman. You said 
$35,000. Perhaps you misspoke^ Our_sheet shows a different 
figure . 



s you misspoke. Our sheet 

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MR. FRYMAN^ In April of 1985, I believe it's 
$35,000, Mr. Precup. 

MR. PRECUP: You're selecting just the April 
figures from that? 

MR. FRYMAN: That's right. There's a $4,000 figure 
in February of 1985. 

MR. PRECUP: All right, we see. Thank you. 
THE WITNESS: I recall receiving traveler's checks 
from Mr. Galero. Without looking at my business records, I 
can't attest to whether your dates are correct or the amounts 
are correct, but I was paid by Mr. Calero in traveler's 
cheeks . 

J'^ MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Was it a series of payments in traveler's checks in 
April of 1985? 

A Well, there was a — yes, for different things and 
there were several payments in April of 1985 . 

Q Is it your recollection that those payments were in 
the range of $35,000? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of the range, 
but I do recall a $20,000 wire transfer and $10,000 in 
traveler's checks specifically. 

Q What did you do with the traveler's checks? 
A I think most of them were deposited into the 
general IBC account and I think some of them I took directly 



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and I've forgotten the exact amount. 
Took directly where? 

A I used them for my own personal income. It was a 
sole proprietorship in 1985. 

Q All right. If you turn to page 11, Mr. Miller, the 
exhibit indicates that IBC received approximately $14,000 in 
1985 from the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation. Do you recall 
your company receiving payments from the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q Did your company perform services for the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the nature of the services? 

A We were their media-^relations and foreign,.policy 
advises for their scholars program and their other public 
education efforts. 

. Q Did you understand that Dan Kuykendall supervised 
the operations of the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you ever discuss the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation with Oliver North? 

A I'm sure I did at one point or another. 

Q Do you recall any discussion? 

A {{jli ^^tfV^afSf^S^^^'&^^E*^^^^^"' ^ ^° recall that, I 



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think the first time that Colonel. North asked me for money, 
the money that was eventually transferred to Mr. Robelo's 
account — I actually think Colonel North thought I was going 
to go to the Gulf and Caribbean sponsors, as opposed to Mr. 
Channel, but that's only a sum total recollection. It's not 
a specific recollection. 

Q You are familiar, of course, with the chart 
prepared by Colonel North that was printed in the Tower 
Commissioo report and has been marked earlier as an exhibit 
in this deposition. 

A I was provided a copy of it by your Committee and 
I've had a chance to review it. 

Q You've seen it before? 

A Yes. 

Q And you're aware that there's a box on that chart 
that indicates the GNC Foundation? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you have any information as to why Colonel North 
included what appears to be a reference to the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation on that chart? 

A No. 

Q Do you believe that any discussion you had with 

Colonel North could have been the basis for his including 

that reference on the chart? 

A It's entirely possible but I don't have any 
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specific recollections of a conversation either about the 
chart or including them in some formal structure. 

Q Also on page 11, Mr. Miller, there's an indication 
that IBC received $9,800 from Kate Macinnis. Now, was Kate 
Macinnis a secretary at your organization? 

A No. Kate Macinnis is our office manager. 

Q She was an office manager. Is it your recollection 
that there was a financial entry in your books showing 
receipt of $9,800 from Kate Macinnis? 

A No. 

Q Do you have any explanation for such an entry? 

A Without going back to my books and specific detail, 
no. I think it's an error in your document. 

Q Mr. Miller. Turn to page 32. On that page, the 
report indicates payments by Miller Communications to Kate 
Macinnis in February through May of 1986 totaling $35,863. 
Do you recall such transfers from Miller Communications to 
Kate Macinnis? 

A No. Again, I think it is an error in your report. 
There is simply the name on the check. I think they are 
probably either my draw or travel advance, and she simply 
cashed the check. 

Q There is a particular entry dated March 24, 1986 for 
$31,663, and there is a notation NBW. Do you recall a 
transfer to her in that approximdtfi -Smount in March of 1986? 



ar in that approximate amc 

mm Rccinttr 



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507 C Sam. N E 2 5 

Vuhinjma. O C 20001 
(202) 



umKsffl 



450 



A. No. Again, it wasn't. a transfer to her. That is 
simply her cashing a check in order to write either a 
cashier's check or a treasurer's check to myself. 

Q You believe it was one of the two. 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall — 

A It may have been Kenneth, but I don't ever remember 
carrying $31,000 in cash away from the office, so I suspect 
it was probably a treasurer's or a cashier's check. 

Q Do you recall placing an order for a cashier's 
check or a treasurer's check in the amount of $31,663 in 
March of 1986? 

A Not specifically, but I can check my records. I 
don't specifically recall it. 

Q If you turn to page 17, Mr. Miller, on that page 
you will note that the report indicates that there were IBC 
checks to Cash in March of 1986: a check, March 21, for 
$2(1,005; a check, March 26, of $20,005, and a check in April, 
April 15, for $20,010. Do you recall IBC making such cash 
withdrawals in March and April of 1986? 

A Not specifically, but I am also not accepting your 

assertion that these are cash withdrawals . These may have 

n 
been interf account transfers or the purchase of treasurer's 

checks or cashier's checks.. 

Q All jrj.<yhtj ."^.yg^^'^gStfJ-iLflPy purchase of treasurer's 



»llW[rtl:li' 



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■uiN NDOirnMO CO., mc 

507 C Stren. N E 25 

VuhintKM. O C 20002 
(202) HH6U 



iSi 



uissife 



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checks or cashier's checks in those amounts in March- and 
April of 1986? 

A None in specific, no. 

Q Now, in response to my question about Kate Macinnis 
and about these transactions, you have referred, on both 
occasions, to the possibility of treasurer's or cashier's 
checks in amounts of $20,000 or $30,000. Do you recall that 
you obtained cashier's checks or traveler's checks in that 
approximate amount at that time? 

A I never said traveler's checks. I said treasurer's 
checks . 

Q I'm sorry, treasurer's checks or cashier's checks. 

A Again, I don't in specific detail, but that's 
entirely possible that it either was that or these were 
inter+account transfers. 

Q Well, you say that's entirely possible. Do you 
recall making transfers in the range of $20,000-$30,000 by 
cashier's checks and treasurer's checks? 

A I recall transfers in the amount of $20,000. How 
the specific transactions were handled, I can't remember 
specifically without looking at my records. 

Q So you have no recollection of withdrawals in the 
March and April 1986 period that total approximately $100,000 
in four transactions, three transactions reflected on page 17 
for $20,000 each payable to Cash and the other transaction 



each payable to Cash and t 



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m I fW NVOMTWQ CO^ MC 
J07 C Sum. N E 25 

Vuhmcna. D C 20002 






11 



452 



from Miller Conununications of $30,000 on March 24, payable to 
Kate Macinnis? 

Q Well, in keeping with what my counsel said earlier 
and to reflect my answer a moment ago, I remember $20,000 
transfers. I can't, from your document — I do not have, from 
your document, a specific refreshment of my recollection 
about these individual transfers. 

Q What $20,000 transfers do you recall? 

A No, I simply remember making $20,000 transfers'. 

Q To whom? 

A I don't remember specifically whom and I couldn't 
remember them off the top of my head without looking at my 
business records. Again, they may have been inter-company 
transfers. 

Q If you were seeking a treasurer's check or a 
cashier's check from the bank, would you make the IBC check 
payable to Cash? 

.A It's been done that way, yes. 

Q Might you also make it payable to Kate Macinnis? 

A I might make it payable to Kate Macinnis . I might 
make it payable to the National Bank of Washington. 

Q It would be one of the three? 

A Right. It could also be made out to me as an 

individual and I could endorse it and the bank would accept 

the endorsement . J^ fro^lfii, f4^f(f^4~knie out as a corporation 



n?#Ct«Jt^'^' 



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wtun mrormta co., mc. 

JO? C Siren. N E 25 

Vajhinpon. O C. 20002 



IlLASSIFIED 



453 



with the -bank accepting the endorsement of the corporation. 

Q If you would turn to page 13, the exhibit indicates 
transfers to IBC totalling $15,000 from the Institute for 
North South Issues. Do you recall IBC receiving payments 
from the Institute for North South Issues? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the purpose of those payments? 

A We were paid a monthly rent for the office space, 
use of the telephones, and other facilities, xeroxing, 
receptionist by the Institute of $15,000 a month. I think if 
you look at — 

Q You said $15,000 a month. 

A $1,500 a month, I'm sorry. $1,500 a month. 

Q Is it your recollection that you received total 
payments of approximately $15,000 for such rent and overhead? 

A Well, I specifically remember getting $1,500 a 
month from them. These figures are all in $1,500 increments, 
so _I would assume these are all rent payments. I don't 
believe we've ever received anything but rent payments from 
them. 

Q You don't recall ever receiving a fee of any sort 
from the Institute for North South Issues? 

A No. 

Q Okay. Also on that page, there's an indication of 
a transfer of funds from Ransom F. Shoup and the company, 



460 



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MLUn nVOKTWO CO.. MC. 

vn c imt%. N E. 2 5 

IfiiuaimB. D C. 20002 



KUSSiFIED 



454 



payments totalling $15,170. Is that a client of your firm? I 

A Yes . j 

Q Has your firm performed public'relations services | 
for that client? 

A Yes. 

Q Are those payments unrelated to your work in 
connection with the Nicaraguan Resistance? 

A Yes. 

Q ' Turning to page 14, Mr. Miller, there's an account 
that begins on the preceding page, 13, where our accountants 
have not been able to identify the source of funds to IBC and 
I want to ask you about certain entries on there and just ask 
you if you recall what the source of the funds were. In 
particular, there's a reference to a payment on September 25, 
1985 of $16,340. Do you recall receiving a payment in 
approximately that amount at that time? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the source of those funds? 

A I believe, again from just trying to recollect from 
your document refreshing my memory that that was a payment by 
the Indonesian World Trade Center. 

Q Did any such payment have any connection with your 
work for the Nicaraguan Resistance?! 

A No. i?nl?Lnuu 

Q Also on that page, Mr. Miller, there's an entry for 



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■UBI MNHTMO CO, at 
W7 C Jam. N E. 25 






fflUiS«B 



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a payment on March 3/ 1986 of $7,000. Do you recall a 
payment in that amount at that time? 

A Not specifically. 

Q You will also note a payment on June 11, 1986 of 
$25,000. Do you recall a $25,000 payment in June of 1986? 

A Not specifically. 

Q When you say not specifically — 

A I have no recollection of that without going back 
to my business records. 

Q Further down, there's an entry for a payment of 
$10,000 on September 29, 1986. Do you recall a payment of 
that amount at that time? 

A No, I don't recall it. 

Q There's an entry for a payment of $8,500 on October 
2, 1986. Do you recall a payment of that amount at that time? 

A NO. 

Q There is an entry for a payment of $38,100 on 
November 10, 1986. Do you recall a payment of that amount at 
approximately that time? 

A I think it's $30,100, but I don't recall the 
specifics of that. 



Off the record. 



(Brief pause off the 



BY MR. FRYMAN: 



SUSSIFIED 



In any case, Mr. Miller, just so there's no 



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HUJN MFOKTWO CO^ MC. 
W7 C Sirm. N E. 25 

Vidmcns. DC. 2000] 



ISUSSIFIM 



456 



confusion over this, page 14 indicates a payment of $38,100 I 

i 
on November 10, 1986. Do you have any recollection of a ! 

payment in that approximate amount at that approximate time? I 

A No. ! 

MR. PRECUP: Mr. Fryman, I would observe too that | 
the word payment is not indicated anywhere on the face of | 
this column. It shows a receipt, but whether that's a j 
payment or some other transaction is not specified on this 
sheet, so if there's some other information that you h^ve 
that indicates it's a payment, I would appreciate you telling 
the witness that. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, I'm trying to be as nonj^echnical 
as possible, Mr. Precup. What the sheet indicates is that 
IBC received funds in that amount at approximately that date 
and by payment, I meant a payment to IBC. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Finally on this page, Mr. Miller, there's an entry 
of .a receipt of $20,000 on November 12, 1986. Do you have 
any recollection of the receipt of approximately that amount 
at that time? 

A I think in that period — no, I don't. I'm sorry. I 
don't have a specific recollection. I 

Q Further on that page, there are entries indicating j 
payments to IBC, or receipts by IBC, of $356,471.66 from the j 
U.S. Treasury. Do vpu recall receiving such monies from the 1 



lurv. Do you recall recei 



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■U^R RVOffTVIQ C0.4 MC. 
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U.S. Treasury? 



Oi^CUSSinED 



A Yea. 

Q What were those funds for? 

A These are in relation to the State Department 
contracts . 

Q There's one there for $14.50 on October 24, 1985. 
Do you have any recollection as to what that relates to? 

A I don't have a specific recollection, but it may 
well be a refund on one of our corporate tax returns. 

Q But I take it, you don't believe that relates to 
the State Department contract? 

A No, I don't think we ever got a check that small 
from the State Department. 

Q But are the other entries in that column consistent 
with your recollection of payments to IBC from the State 
Department? 

A All but the first one and I would have to verify 
that from my business records. The others all seem consis- 
tent. 

Q Tou recall a series of payments for $12,858? 

A That's correct. 

Q And you recall a large payment for $216,381.16? 

A Yes. 

Q And a final payment of $25,670? 

A Correct . 



ONOUSSIRED 



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MUjBI nVOMTMtt CO^ MC 
WTCSfmt. NE. 25 

Wuhioiraa. O C. 2000] 



WliSSW 



458 



Q Turning to page 15, there's a notation that your 
account received $6,761.55 in December of 1986 from the 
Western Goals Foundation. Do you recall receiving a payment 
of approximately that amount at that time? 

A Yes. 

Q What was that for? 

A It was for the beginning of a radio program they 
wanted to put on the air. 

Q And Western Goals was an organization controlled by 
Mr. Channel at that time? 

A Well, he was involved with it at that time. 
Whether he was in direct control, I don't know. 

Q Did you consider Mr. Channel the individual who 
made the decision to make a payment to you on behalf of 
Western Goals? 

A In conjunction with Mr. Conrad who was, at that 
time, I believe the Executive Director of Western Goals. 

_ Q There are also on that page^ entries indicating 
receipts of $20,000 from William Mulvey, Inc. Is William 
Mulvey, Inc. a client of your firm? 

A Yes. 



And you've rendered public^relations services for 



^ 
that client? 

A And other services as well J 

Q And am I correct that the receipts from that client 




D 



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m±n i w o w rw u co- —c 
wrcjom. NE 25 

Wariuatna. DC. 20002 



iJNCLASSW 



459 



had nothing to do with your work for the Nicaraguan Resis- 
tance? 

A That's correct. 

Q On that page, there are further series of payments 
at this point, beginning after the first two entries, which 
are reflected as a debit column, of payments to 1607 Asso- 
ciates and 1912 Sunderland Associates. Is it your recollec- 
tion that you made such payments to such entities as rent 
payments? , 

A Rent and other services . 

Q On page 16, Mr. Miller, there are also a series of 
payments reflected to Bragg Communications for the period 
June 1985 through January of 1986. Is it your recollection 
that you made such payments to Bragg Communications for rent 
also? 

A That's correct. 

Q Continuing on page 16, there is an indication of a 
payment of $10,000 in November 1986 to Frederick Arguello 
from the IBC account. Do you recall making such a payment 
from that account in November of 1986? 

A It was money that was transferred to him at the 
direction of Colonel North. 

Q Did this reflect A'£<ls-fc<Jia| ^AfSfifiifl4 *^°'" ^' 
Channel , organization? ^J^l AScIFIlD 

A Yes. I'm not sure you have the right account, but 



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W7 C Sam. N t 25 

Vakiafm. O C »as> 



that's- 



NCLASSIHED 



460 



Q Our analysis indicates this came out of an IBC bank 
account. Is that inconsistent with your recollection? 

A My recollection was that it came out of the Miller 
Communications account, but that may — I wouldn't be able to 
swear to either one of them without looking at the bank 
records . 

Q In any case, you recall a payment to Frederick 
Arguello in November of 1986 of $10,000 that was made at the 
direction of Colonel North, right? 

A Correct. Can we take a quick break? 

Q Sure . 

Q Turning to page 16, or continuing on page 16, Mr. 
Miller, there are two payments on that page, in July of 1985, 
of $50,000 each, to Gary Bagdasarian, and I believe Mr. Kaplan 
asked you some questions about Gary Bagdasarian at an earlier 
session of your deposition. 

But I want to just pursue this a bit more. Do you 
recall making two $50,000 payments to Mr. Bagdasarian in July 
of 19857 

A Yes. 

Q I believe you've testified earlier, that this had 
some relation to your association with, aldda&aoutii? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did al-Massoudi request that you make these 



sciation with al-Ma&anudi7 



467 



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M7 C Smi. N E. 2 5 

Variuafioa. DC. 20002 
(202) Vtt-ttM 



illiSSlFlED 



461 



payments to Mr. Bagdasarian? 

A Yes. 

Q What did you understand was the reason for the 
payments? 

A It was some performance bond which needed to be 
satisfied, and Mr. Bagdasarian is his attorney and he was 
responsible for taking care of it. 

Q Now the association with al-Massoudi was an 
association that you were pursuing at the request of Colonel 
North, is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q Now, did Colonel North arrange for you to be reim- 
bursed for this $100,000? 

A Yes . 

Q How did he do that? 

A It was a reimbursement that came, I think before 
the end of 1985. 

. Q How was the reimbursement paid to you? 

A Well, I kept a running ledger sheet which I 
provided him copies of, which showed subtractions from the 
money given to us by NEPL and other sources, and the subtrac- 
tions were for expenditures made by his direction, or on his 
behalf, and I would have reported it in that fashion. So it 
would have been a subtraction situation for me. I would have 
subtracted it from the total . 



mjmm 



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SIUSSIRED 



462 



Q So, when you refer to the monies paid by NEPL, are 
you referring to the monies paid by NEPL to the IBC account, 
that you then relayed to the IC account, and then relayed to 
other entities at Colonel North's direction? 

A No. As I've testified earlier, the problem that we 
encountered was, in the beginning we were doing a lot of 
Colonel North's business out of the IBC accounts, and we 
eventually tried to move it all into the IC, Inc. account. 

Q Right. 

A But this is an early instance in which we expended 
money directly out of the IBC accounts for one of the things 
that he had directed. 

Q Right. But going back to your July 1985 meeting 
with Colonel North and Mr. Channell, where there was a 
discussion that NEPL would transfer a certain number of 
dollars to one of your accounts, and then you would arrange 
to transfer those monies to other entities at the direction 
of .Colonel North — am I correct in understanding from your 
answer, that at some point in 1985, Colonel North authorized 
you to hold for your own purposes $100,000 of such funds that 
NEPL had transferred as reimbursement for these expenditures 
to Mr. Bagdasarian? 

A Yes. i;;?«^i]> 

7JL, 

Q Turning to page 17, there's an indication of a 
payment by IBC to Bruce Cameron of $10,000 in January 1986. 




469 



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MUjn MVOKTatO CO.. MC 

yn c SiRR. N E 25 

Tukiofnai. DC. 2000] 



lISUlSSinED 



463 



Do yau- recall paying such an amount to Mr. Cameron? - 

A Yes. 

Q What was that for? 

A It was for a legislative analysis by Mr. Cameron on 
the climate on Capitol Hill for continued aid to the Nicara- 
guan resistance. 

Q Was this for a particular paper that he was 
preparing for you, or was it for continued services over a 
period of 'time? 

A I recall that there was some form of a report — 
there may have been more than one — but beyond that, I can't 
recall the specifics of the relationship without going back 
and looking at my records . 

Q How did you happen to retain Mr. Cameron? 

A Bruce was recommended to us by PeivKemble of the 
Institute for Religion and Democracy, and we received a 
recommendation from Elliott Abrams also. 

. Q When you say you received a recommendation, do you 
recall what they said about him, what was the nature of the 
recommendation? 

A That he was working hard for the policies, and that 
he had been made to pay a heavy price by his former col- 
leagues , and that if there was a way to incorporate him into 
the effort we should do it. And all those conversations were 



predicated on the fact that we vn 



mrj^'RWf!^ 



wg for somebody to 



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(20J) i*6<Mi 



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iii 



do precisely that, and in our book those two things were 
qualification enough for him. 

Q Did Mr. Abrams indicate that Mr. Cameron had been 
useful in the effort? 

A I don't recall that. I recall Elliott saying that 
he was a good man, and that he knew Central America extremely 
well and knew the legislative process involving Central 
America extremely well. 

Q .When did this discussion with Mr. Abrams occur? 

A I can't recall, specifically, but some time around 
December, I guess. 

Q Was it just you and Mr. Abrams? 

A As I recall it was a phone conversation, but my 
recollection is sketchy. I think I got a letter from Pery 
Kemble, and I think I got a phone call from Elliott Abrams. 

Q Asking you to retain Cameron? 

A Hell, the letter from Pen/Kemble asked me to retain 
CaiQieron. The phone call from Elliott Abrams was what I had 
just recounted to you. 

Q I mean, did you consider that a request by Mr. 
Abrams, that you retain Cameron? 

A No. I considered it a recommendation by Mr. Abrams. 

Q But is it your recollection that that was the 
principal subject of the phone call, that he called you with 
respect to a recommendation of Mr. Cameron 






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J07 C SiHR. N.E. 2 5 

VaAidttea. C. 10002 



mm K'^iP'Fn 



465 



A Yes. 

Q Are you aware that Mr. Channell also retained Mr. 
Cameron in 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know the purpose for which Mr. Channell 
retained Mr. Cameron? 

A Well, in general terms, yes. 

Q Did you discuss with Mr. Channell his retention of 
Mr. Cameron? 

A Well, actually, I think this transaction that you 
and I just discussed a moment ago was the beginning of that 
relationship, and then I think it continued on. I can't 
attest to the financial transactions between the two of them 
because I wasn't made aware of them, but the general work 
continued to be about the same, legislative analysis. 

Q Was Mr. Cameron performing lobbying services? 

A I don't think under his contract with NEFL he was 
pecformlng lobbying services . He may have received money from 
Mr. Channell for lobbying services, but I'm not positive 
about that. 

Q Was he performing lobbying services for you? 

A I didn't consider this lobbying services. 

Q What period of time did his services cover for you, 
for which you paid him $10,0007 H ||ljL/\NN|r jl' jj 

A Actually, I think that isiJlO,000 out of a total 



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W7 C Snett. N E. 2 5 

Vnhiniton. DC. 20002 






466 



conunitment to him of about $40,000, and it spanned several 
months, and, again, without looking at the letters, the 
exchange of letters or subsequent documents in the file, I 
can't tell you exactly how many months it was. 

But it's at least four months, and it entailed more 
than just Mr. Cameron. It entailed employees of Mr. Cameron. 

Q Well, is it your recollection that your company 
paid him $40,000? 

A .No. It's my recollection that the original request 
from him was for $40,000, and I think this $10,000 is the 
initial payment of that $40,000. 

Q Is it your recollection that subsequent payments 
came directly from Mr. Channell? 

A I think that's right. I'm hazy on my recollection 
but I think that's correct. 

Q Has there some reason that there was a transfer of 
compensation to Mr. Cameron from your organization to Mr. 
Channell 's organization? 

A Mr. Channell wanted it that way. 

Q He did? 

A Tes. 

Q That's something you recall discussing with Mr. 
Channell? 

A Yes, 



UNOIASSIFIEB 



Do you know why he wanted it that way? 



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No. 



mussffl 



467 



He didn't indicate why he wanted it that way? 
Not that I specifically remember. 
Continuing on page 17 of Exhibit 29, Mr. Miller, 
there's a reference to a payment of $9,300 to Ricardo 
Carrasco in October of 1985. Do you recall such a payment? 

A I don't. I've never seen the name Ricardo Carrasco, 
or don't recall seeing it. 

Q So you have no idea what such a payment would have 
been for? 

A Again, I've never heard of Ricardo Carrasco, or at 
least I don't remember Ricardo Carrasco in any way. 

Q All right. At the bottom of that page, there's an 
indication of a payment in September of 1985 to Arturo Cruz 
of $10,005. Do you recall such a payment in September of 
1985? 

A Yes. The five dollars is simply a charge for a 
cas_hier's check. 

Q So the payment was for $10,0007 

A That's correct. 

Q We were talking earlier, on that same page, about 
the notations of payments to cash in March and April of 1986 
for $20,005 and $20,010. Do those amounts indicate to you 
that those were cashier^s^ cbf aJra^or treasurer's checks as 



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A It's entirely possible that those are service 
charges for cashier's or treasurer's checks. 

Q why did you pay Mr. Cruz $10,000 in September of 
1985? 

A Colonel North asked me to. 

Q What was the source of those funds? 

A That was NEPL money. 

Q Turning to page 18, we were talking earlier about 
payments t)o David Fischer, and you will note that there is an 
indication of a $50,000 payment to David Fischer and As- 
sociates on April 18, 1986. 

Does that refresh your recollection about such a 
payment in that amount, in April of 1986? 

A Again, Z recall making a $50,000 payment to Mr. 
Fischer. I don't recall a specific date, but I'll accept 
your record of it. 

Q Why did you make a $50,000 payment to Hr. Fischer? 

A He requested it. 

Q That's the only reason? 

A That's correct. 

Q You indicated earlier this morning that you had a 
commitment to Mr. Fischer and Mr. Artiano to pay them 
$480,000, is that correct?, 

A That's correct. 

Q You understood that they had performed the services 



ana ru. • A£«.xaiiw bw paj ^' 



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for which they were entitled to be paid that amount during a 
period of six months? 

A That's correct. 

Q That six months began in December of 1985? 

A Actually, January of 1986. 

Q It began in January of 1986. 

A They began work in December, but the period that I'm 
talking about, the intensive work that they carried out, was 
in the first six months of 1986. 

Q The six months ending June of 1986? 

A That's correct. 

Q You've also indicated this morning, that you paid 
Mr. Fischer $105,000 of that $480,000 in January or February 
of 1987. Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q So is it correct, that in effect, you owed Mr. 
Fischer more than $100,000 for a six-month period? He had 
coiqpleted his services in June of 1986, but you did not finish 
compensating him for those services until January of 1987? 

A As I told you earlier in my testimony, our agreement 
was for $20,000 a month for 24 months, and within reason, 
they could make cash calls along the way, and both that 
$50,000 and the ViO^/that.ypiL' ye .384(94 v^f^^llt were the 



BtCRSsra 



result of cash calls 

Q But the services that were being performed for those 



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monies were completed, in your view, in June of 1986? 

A That's correct. 

Q Also on page 18, Mr. Miller, there's an indication 
of payment to something called Eason, E-a-s-o-n, Associates. 
Do you know what Eason Associates is? 

A Yes. That's my graphic arts subcontractor. 

Q Do you recall a payment to Eason Associates of 
$12,000 in June of 1986? 

A Not specifically. 

Q Were any payments that you made to Eason Associates 
payments for services that they rendered to your organization/ 

A Yes. They all were. 

Q Payments for services in the area of graphic arts? 

A That's correct. 

Q Who was Rafael Flores? 

A He's an employee. 

Q You will note on page 18, there are indications of 
periodic payments to Mr. Flores, the first of approximately 
$477, and later, approximately $524.^. Do you recall such 
periodic payments to him? 

A I'm sure they're salary payments. 

Q Salary payments. Now there's also an indication of 
two significantly larger payments to Mr. Flores, one in 
January 1986 of S5 . 128 ^4^ jm^ A-a.econd on March 11, 1986, of 
$6,740.69. 




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Do you recall such larger payments to Mr. Flores? 

A Not specifically. 

Q Well, do you ever recall making payments to Mr. 
Flores apart from his monthly salary payments? 

A Yes. 

Q For what purposes? 

A He was the principal escort in the beginning of the 

Central American Freedom Program for our speakers, and later, 

was one of' several escorts, and he didn't carry any credit 

^> ■ — 

cards, and he generally travelled with traveller's checks as 

opposed to using credit cards, and that's the way he paid his 

bills on the road. 

Q Well, is it your recollection that you provided 
traveljler's checks to him by means of an IBC check payable to 
him? 

A To him, to cash, or to NBW, or to American Express, 
any one of those ways. 

. Q Do you have any recollection of any other larger 
payments to Mr. Flores? 

A Not offhand, no. 

Q Turning to page 19, there is an indication of 
payments to H-u-m-b-e-r-t-o Q-u-i-n-o-n-e-s. Do you recall 
payments to an individual named Humberto Quinones? 



Yes. 



Who is Mr. Quinones? 



UNCUSSIFiED 



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UNCUSSinED 



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A He is a consultant to IBC. 

Q Why were you paying him money? 

A For a client matter unrelated to this investigation. 

Q A matter that has not relation to your work for the 
Nicaraguan resistance? 

A That's correct. 

Q What is his area of specialty? 

A Predominantly the Caribbean and South America. 

Q You mean he's knowledgeable about political matters 
in that area? 

A Political, but predominantly business, trade, and 
development. 

Q Does he have his own firm? 

A I believe he does have his own firm, yes. 

Q Do you know what his background is? 

A He's a Cuban-American, and he's done work with 
several Central American and Caribbean governments. 

Q Turning to page 20, there's an indication of a 
payment in March 1986 of $6,206.85 to Kemp Enterprises. 
Do you recall a payment to Kemp Enterprises? 

A Yes. 

Q What is Kemp Enterprises? 



MlASSm 



A That is a producer, whose last name is Kemp, who 
produced the "Bitter Legacy" film for us under the Central 
American Freedom Program. I can't recall his first name. I 



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can't remember his first name. 



UNCLASSIRED 



Q Is it your recollection that there was a payment in 
the range of $6,000 in March of 1986 for the preparation of 
that program? 

A Yes . 

Q Who is Kevin Hopkins? 

A He's a writer. 

Q Do you recall paying Kevin Hopkins $5,000 in the 

suiraner of 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did you pay him that money? 

A It was for writing a brochure. 

Q About what? 

A IBC. Well, Kevin did many things, so I'm not sure 
exactly which activity that was for. 

Q Did he perform any services in connection with your 
work on behalf of the Nicaraguan resistance? 
. A No. 

Q There's a notation on page 20, Mr. Miller, that IBC 
paid $25,000 to the Latin American Strategic Studies Institute 
in March 1986. 

Do you recall paying such an amount at approximately 



that time? 



Yes. 



IHCUSSlflED 



Why did you pay those monies? 



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A It was requested by Dr. Calero and approved by 
Colonel North. 

Q What was the source of those funds? 
A That was NEPL money. 

Q Who is Gerald McElsay? M-c-E-1-s-a-y. 
A I have no idea. 

Q There's an indication on page 21 of a $10,000 
payment to Gerald McElsay in July of 1985. Do you have any 
recollection of such a payment? 

A I don't remember the name, Gerald McElsay. I'd 
have to go back to my business records. 

Q Turning to page 22, do you know, or do you recognize 
the name Shokiri Moniereh? S-h-o-k-i-r-i. M-o-n-i-e-r-e-h. 
A Yes, but it's inverted. 
How should it appear? 
Moniereh Shokiri. 
Who is that individual? 
That is Ibrahim al-Massoudi's wife and business 



Q 
A 
Q 
A 

partner 
Q 



Did you make payments to her of approximately 



$46,000 in 1985? 



Yes. 



UNClASSra 



Q Why did you make those payments? 

A These were payments for office expenses, telephone, 
Telex, and fees associated with the al-Massoudi business. 



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Q . Now were you reimbursed for those expenses? 

A Yes. 

Q Colonel North authorized you to be reimbursed for 
those expenses? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the source of funds for that reimbursement? 

A NEPL. 

Q Now we've talked, Mr. Miller, about your being 
reimbursed for the payments to Gary Bagdasarian, and the 
$46,000 in payments to Moniereh Shokiri. 

There's also a notation, on page 21, of a $25,000 
payment to Massoudi in July of 1985. Do you recall that 
payment? 

A Not specifically. 

Q Well, do you recall paying monies to al-Massoudi? 

A I don't remember this entry, specifically. It 
doesn't refresh a specific recollection. 

_ Q Did you keep a record of all of the funds that you 
had expended on behalf of al-Massoudi? 

A Yes, and we also produced a 1099 at the end of 1986. 

Q Did you ask Colonel North, that you be authorized 
to be reimbursed for all of the expenditures you had made on 



HNClASSra 



behalf of al-Massoudi? 
A Yes. 
Q Did he authorize such reimbursement? 



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Q Did you take such amounts out of the NEPL funds? 

A Yes . 

Q What is your recollection of the total amount of 
the reimbursement? 

A At this point, it's about 350-sorae thousand 
dollars. Our accountants, in their first 1099, missed the 
second $50,000 transfer to Bagdasarian, so they reported it 
in the 1099 as $291,000, I think, or 290-some thousand, and 
actually there was another $50,000 for Bagdasarian. And they 
missed one other item, but I've forgotten exactly how much it 
was. 

Q So it was approximately $350,000? 

A That's right. 

Q You took approximately $350,000 from the NEPL 
funds, pursuant to the authorization from Colonel North? 

A My only problem with your using the word NEPL-- 
there may have been other funds that came back from IC, Inc. 
through World Affairs Counsellors, but I couldn't swear to 
that. But it was for money for the resistance. It was from 
money for the resistance. 

Q Now we talked earlier about your discussions with 
Colonel North where he authorized you to take a 10 percent 
fee for your services in making tjies^ transfers of the NEPL 
funds . 



iMSlFIED 



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ILHSSifiED 



477 



Am I correct in understanding that his authorization 
of the reimbursement of the funds you had expended on behalf 
of al-Massoudi was in addition to this 10 percent service 
charge that he authorized you to take? 

A That's correct. I would say that the 510,000 was 
as much a reaction to the al-Massoudi business, though. Or 
10 percent. Excuse me. And that it was clear to me, after 
the business year came to a close in 1986, or '85, that we 
were expending an extreme amount of time on this, and going 
in the hole, and that wasn't acceptable. You can't continue 
doing business that way. 

Q Correct. But it was not your understanding that 
your reimbursement of the $350,000 that we've been discussing 
was to come from the 10 percent service charge that Colonel 
North had authorized? 

A That's correct. 

Q You were to be reimbursed directly on a dollar- for- 
doUar basis from the funds transferred to your accounts? 

A That's correct. 

Q Turning to page 23, there is a reference at the top 
to M-o-u-f-i-d, slash, A-r-n-o-u-s . Do you recognize that as 



a name? 



Who is that person? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



He's a business partner, associate of al-Massoudi 



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Q IS that the correct way that you understand the 
name should be written? Moufid Arnous? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall paying him $12,000 at the request of 
al-Massoudi? 

A Yes. And the second item that you have listed, the 
ten thousand, may be the $10,000 associated with the airline 
tickets I was recalling, but I'm very hazy on the recollec- 
tion. 

Q Were payments to Moufid Arnous part of the reimbur- 
sement that Colonel North authorized? 

A Yes . ! 

Q Now continuing on page 23, and 24 as well, Mr. 
Miller, there is indication of a variety of payments from IBC 
to the National Bank of Washington, and I want to review some 
of these with you. 

First, there is an indication of periodic payments 
to. the National Bank of Washington in the range of $5,000, 
and another group of periodic payments in the range of $3,000 

Do you recall your company making a number of 
payments to the National Bank of Washington in tjie 53,000 and 
$5,000 range? it^ini IVVV^flT^I 

A Not specifically, llg 4 




Oil 



MR. PRECUP: I think the record should reflect that 



in the series to which Mr. Fryman has just pointed 



0-^1 



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CLASSinED 



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of the checks seem to be in identical amounts. There are 
some checks that are in the amount of 3,000, some in the 
amount of five, both with change, if you will, but not what I 
think are fairly characterized as periodic payments . 

MR. FRYMAN: Let me approach this another way, 
then, Mr Precup. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Was the National Bank of Washington the principal 
bank for IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q Did IBC have loans with the National Bank of 
Washington? 

A We have had two loans, I believe, with the National 
Bank of Washington. 

Q What was the nature of those loans? 

A Business loans. We borrowed money from them, ■aiK 
based on future receivables, and repaid it. 

Q Did you repay it on a monthly basis or was it a 
demand note with the total principle to repay it at a certain 
date? 

A As I recall, they were both demand notes, and they 
were paid in full. 

Q All right. So you had no other loan relationship 
with the National Bank of Washington other than those two 
specific loans you've referred to?j 



UNCussra 



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HCLASSlFiED 



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A That's correct. 

Q Now, did you use the National Bank of Washington in 
connection with making tax payments? 

A Yes. 

Q How did that work? 

A We made our tax payments at the National Bank of 
Washington. 

Q These are employee taxes? 

A All forms of taxes. 

Q Withholding taxes. And so you made a number of 
periodic checks to the National Bank of Washington for that 
purpose? 

A Well, I don't know how to characterize it, whether 
I'd characterize it as "periodic," but I'm sure that's the 
form in which we paid our payroll taxes, was by check. 

Q All right. By checks payable to the National Bank 
of Washington? 

A I believe that's correct. I think that's how you'd 
pay them. 

Q Now other than payments to the National Bank of 
Washington for interest on the loan and repayment of the 
principle on the loan, and payments to the National Bank of 
Washington for various taxes, what other _^ 
to the National Bank of Was-hington? su^ib] 

A None that I'm aware of other than registration 




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fees, or standard banking fees. 

Q Did you purchase, from tine to time, cashier's 
checks or traveller's checks, cr treasurer's checks, at the 
National Bank of Washington? 

A I'm sure at some time we purchased all three of 
those. 

Q Now directing your attention again to page 23, 
there's an indication of a payment to the National Bank of 
Washington in April 1985 of $14,005.1^. 

Do you recall a payment in that amount at that 
approximate time? 

A Not specifically, no. 

Q Does that $5 amount indicate to you that that was a 
check for the purchase of a cashier's check or treasurer's 
check? 

A That is possible, but it still doesn't refresh my 
recollection. 

. Q Well, do you recall the purchase of a cashier's 
check or treasurer's check in April of 1985 for $14,000? 

A Not specifically. 

Q There's also an indication of a payment to the 
National Bank of Washington in August 1985 of $18,545.1^ Do 
you recall a payment of that amount at about that time? 

A That was the payment I had described to you earlier 
as one of the a L-iteMfl'tfli^ nMWJBtyfMiUng with the hostage 



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situation. 

Q Why was that payable to the National Bank of 

Washington? 

A I think it was for traveller's checks and they were 

transmitted to him in Geneva. 

Q Was that an amount that Colonel North authorized 

the reimbursement from the NEPL funds? 

A Yes . 

Q 'There's also, at the bottom of page 23, an indica- 
tion of a payment of $20,010 to the National Bank of Washing- 
ton on May 15, 1986. 

Do you recall a payment of approximately that 
amount at approximately that date? 

A Not specifically, no. 

Q Turning to page 24, there's an indication of two 
payments to the Nicaraguan Development Council, one in 
December 1985 of $6,000, and one in March of 1986 of $25,000. 
Do you recall those payments? 

A I recall making payments in that amount to the 
Nicaraguan Development Council. 

Q Why did you make such payments? 

A I can't recall, at the moment, what specifically 
they were for. 

Q Were these payments made_ _a_t Jj\fi. direction of 
Colonel North? 




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\iiW 



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A If not the direction, at least the approval of 
Colonel North. 

Q Were these from the NEPL funds? 

A Yes. 

Q Also on that page, there's an indication of two 
payments to Mr. Robelo of $30,000 each, one in July of 1985, 
and the other in September of 1985. 

Do you recall such payments? 

A I recall transferring two $30,000 payments to 
Commercial Tooling in Costa Rica, and I was aware at the time 
that that was a Robelo organization. 

Q Were these transfers from the IBC account? 

A Yes. 

Q Were these done at the direction of Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Also on page 24, Mr. Miller, there is an indication 
of a payment of $20,000 on January 21, 1986, and our accoun- 
tants have not been able to identify the recipient. 

Do you recall a payment of $20,000 on January 21, 



1986? 



Not specifically. 

Who is Lawrence Stuart Young? 

He's a television producer in Miami. 

Do you recall making payments^o him in 1985? 

Yes. 



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liNCLASSinED 



484 



Q What was the purpose of those payments? •■ - . - - 

A He was the director and field producer for our 
first documentary with Dr. Joachim Maitre. 

Q Did those payments total approximately $13,000, to 
your recollection? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the subject of that documentary? 

A The freev-om fighters and their military viability, 
and their level of popular support in Nicaragua. 

Q Was that the documentary that was later revised by 
the Robert Goodman Agency? 

A Yes. 

Q What is ZGS? 

A It's a videotape production company. 

Q Did you make payments to that company in 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the purpose of those payments? 

A Those were production costs associated with our 
multiple client responsibilities, some of them NEPL, some of 
them other clients. 

Q You described ZGS as a production company? 

A That's correct. Videotape production company. 

Q Do you mean that they would take a script and they 
would film a commercial? Or what would they do? 

A "^^^y ■^'MFt #t1^ M-fMV^ri-VIly °^ ^^^ NEPL television 



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(202) 



conunercials- This is documentary production, credits, film 
duplication, editing, general production, videotape produc- 
tion. 

Q Who is Tony Zumbado? 

A He's a producer from Miami who was employed during 
the Central America Freedom Program to develop the contra- 
film units. 

Q What is that? 

A He actually had ceunera crews who were resident in 
Nicaragua, and Honduras and Costa Rica, whom he retained to 
shoot film footage. He was the principal field producer on 
the Wesley Smith documentary. 

Q You paid him approximately $30,000? 

A Yes . 

Q What was the Wesley Smith documentary? 

A It's called "Bitter Legacy" and it is about the 
Sandinista repression of religious and political opposition in 
Nicaragua. 

Q Is that the documentary that Mr. Young worked on? 

A No. 

Q So that's a different documentary than the one that 

the Goodman Agency revised? 
A That's correct. 

Q What use was made of "Bitter Legacy"? 

A It was crQ'^dflcWit#% iftf fllVn stations on a request 



MMSffiff' 



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UNCLASSIHED 



486 



basis,, was put up on. the satellite, and has been used as a 
"leave behind" with organizations, television stations, when 
speakers spoke to either of those. 

Q Do you know whether air time was purchased for 
"Bitter Legacy" on television stations? 

A I don't ever recall purchasing time on television 
stations for "Bitter Legacy. " We did put it up on the 
satellite, and you pay for the satellite time, but then the 
stations take it and it is up to them to air it, or not. 

Q But you're not aware of it being aired as a paid 
program? 

A I don't recall it ever being aired as a paid 
program. 

Q Do you recall it ever being aired as a public- 
service program? 

A Some of the television stations who interviewed 
some of the speakers did use it, subsequently, as a public- 
affairs program. 

Q Public-affairs program. Turning, Mr. Miller, to 
page 27 which concerns the IC account in the Cayman Islands, 
there is a reference to a receipt in July of 1986 of $55,753. 
Do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q Are you aware that the IC account received such an 
amount at approximately that time? 



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No. 



I think your record's. incorrect. I think 



that's an inter4account transfer which you're attributing to 
an outside source. 

Q Now our analysis indicates that the IC account 
received funds from Herbert Barness, the Heritage Foundation, 
IBC, NEPL, and interest payments. Are you aware of any 
sources of funds to the IC account other than the sources I 
just indicated? 

A , No. 

Q It's your belief that the entry on this sheet, 

dated July 31, 1986, for $55,753, should be an entry for an 

inter4account transfer? 
> 
A Correct . 

Q When you refer to " interfaccount transfers," what cy 
you mean? 

A The managing directors in the Cayman Islands set up 
additional accounts in order to draw interest without our 
direction. They simply took it upon themselves to do it, and 
when we would require transfers to be made out, sometimes 
they would have to accumulate the sum in one of the accounts 
and they did that by transferring the amounts from other 
accounts. And I' believe your entire bottom section probably 
is redundant to tiie.lJSQ ^egt^n. __So^'m very dubious about 
your analysis . 

Q Turning, again, to page 32, we've talked earlier 



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today about the indication of a payment from Miller Communica- 
tions to Kate Macinnis in March of 1986 for $31,663.00. 

I believe you indicated that that was for some 
purpose other than a direct payment to Kate Macinnis. 

A That's correct. 

Q I believe it was for a purchase of a cashier's 
check or a treasurer's check, or some other sort of transfer. 
Is that correct? 

A Some other form of transfer. That's correct. 

Q Do you have any recollection of a payment or a 
transfer in that amount from Miller Communications in March 
of 19867 

A No. 

Q If you will turn to page 33, there is an indication 
of a transfer from Miller Communications to the National Bank 
of Washington in December 1986 of $64,791.04. 

Do you recall a transfer in that approximate 
amount, or a payment in that approximate amount in December 
1986? 

A Again, I'm sure it was for some instrument of some 
sort, but I don't specifically recall. It could have well 
been year-end draw. Something that will cheer the IRS. 

Q Now going back to page four of this exhibit, 
there's an indication, Mr. Miller, that in 1985 and 1986 — 

le total figure combined for 1985 and 1986? 




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Q For 1985 and 1986, yes. This analysis covers 
January 1985 through December 1986, and it indicates payments 
to IBC from NEPL of $5,037,751,101 

Is it your recollection that in that two-year 
period/ IBC received payments from NEPL in the approximate 
amount of $5 million? 

A I can't attest to that figure without going back and 
looking at my business records. 

Q 'I'm not asking you to attest to that figure. - My 
question is, is it your recollection that in that two-year 
period, the total payments to IBC from NEPL were approximately 
$5 million? 

- A Approximately $5 million, yes. 

g Is that correct? That's your recollection? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, in addition, page four indicates that IBC 
received a payment from the Western Goals Foundation of 
$6^762, which we discussed earlier today, and you indicated 
that you recall a payment in approximately that amount from 
Western Goals, is that correct? 

A Tes. 

Q Page four also indicates that IBC received payments 
from the American Conservative Trust of $11,440. Is it your 
recollection that in this two-year period, IBC received 
payments from the American Conservative Trust in approximately 



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that amount, of $11,4407 

A I don't specifically recall the amount, but I recall! 
receiving compensation in rough approximation of that figure. 

Q From the American Conservative Trust? 

A Yes. 

Q There's also an indication here of receipts by IBC 
of $21,000 from the Palmer National Bank. Do you recall any 
receipts from the Palmer National Bank, or do you have any 
explanatidn of — well, let me leave the question. Do you 
recall any receipts in the range of $21,000 from the Palmer 
National Bank? 

A Not from the Palmer National Bank. That would have 
been money from the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty. 

MR. PRECUP: Mr. Fryman, before you leave page 
four, I would like it noted for the record/ I have a strong 
objection to the indication of the words "income" on this 
page because it is not consistent at all with Mr. Miller's 
testimony nor with the records themselves, or, I think the 
facts, that that is income in any income tax, or even 
financial sense. It may have been receipts. But the income 
characterization is wholly improper and without foundation. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, Mr. Precup, I'm not asking that 
Mr. Miller adopt this exhibit in any way, and in the prepara- 
tion of this exhibit, T Ji hi" l_ljnki#«i>'<nil our accountants 



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intended to suggest by the word "income" that the amounts in 
that column were taxable income. 

I think the word on the cover page, in analysis 3A 
is "receipts "yi and I think what you're saying is that you 
would have preferred that the word "receipts" be used on page 
four as well. 

Is that correct? 

MR. PRECUP: Well, I didn't say that. I said I 
objected to the use of the word "income." 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, your objection is noted. 

MR. PRECUP: Thank you. 

MR. FRYMAN: As I say, I'm not asking you or your 
client to accept the characterization, and there is not any 
intent in preparing this to suggest that these amounts were 
taxable income. 

MR. PRECUP: Thank you, Mr. Fryman. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, in Exhibit 29, there is a reference in 
several places — and to take an example, page 7 of Exhibit 29- 
-to Carlos Ulet, U-l-e-t. Do you recall a payment to an 
individual by that name? 

A Yes. But it's incorrectly reported as Ulet. 
Q what is the correct spelling? 
A It's pronounced Ulvert, and it's u-1-v-e-r-t. 
Q Who is Carlos Ulvert? 



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A . He is th«— or was the executive dl^nctor- .and 
Washington representative of UNO, Unified Nlcaraguan Opposi- 
tion. 

MR. FRYMAN t Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 

MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Miller 
Deposition Exhibit 30, a composite exhibit composed of a 
group of pages produced by counsel for Mr. Miller, and IBC. 

(The document referred to was 
marked Miller Deposition Exhibit 
No. 30 for identification.] 
MR. FRYMAN: The first three pages of this exhibit 
is a handwritten inventory of the materials Included in the 
exhibit, identifying, where possible, the date of the 
document, and the control number of the document, placed on 

the document by counsel for IBC, and Mr. Miller. 

■? 
MR. PRECUP: Those are our control numbers. 

MR. FRYMAN: They're your control numbers. 

MR. PRECUP i Thank you. 

[ Pause . ] 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. Miller, I show you Deposition Exhibit 30 for 
identification. Mr. Miller, if you *rould first look at the 
documents included in Exhibit 30, which begin with your 



control number 1377. It' 

I 



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cal event checklist 



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dated. .March 1, 1985. There then follows, beginning at your 
document number 1357, a chronological event checklist dated 
March 15, 1985. 

After that, there is a chronological event checklist 
dated March 20, 1985 which begins with your control number 
1368. 

Then at page 1385, there is a document headed 
"Congressional/Public Affairs/Diplomatic Action Plan." 

•MR. PRECUP: Mr. Fryman, Just a moment here. We 
seem to have a page or two missing. The previous chronologi- 
cal checklist that you identified was our control number 
1368, March 20, 1985. 

That appears, on our copy, to be a two-page 
document. It is followed by control number 136 — and obliter- 
ated — I think it's probably 1369, that starts on page two and 
continues. So its dates appear not consecutive with those of 
its preceding pages, and we may be missing a cover sheet. 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Precup, I believe you are correct. 

MR. PRECUP: Is your copy the same way? 

MR. FRYMAN: It is. 

MR. PRECUP: The document to which I just referred 
beginning on what appears to be 1369, continues through 
serial number page 9, and then you just, if I recall correct- 
ly, directed our attention to 1385. 

MR. FRYMAN: Xss . ^Tid Af^ mwmimnes through your 



TiMi^iK^onm' 



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control number L376., .. 

MR. PRECUP: Okay. The one that begins, yes, on 
page two . 

MR. FRYMAN: On page two. 

MR. PRECUP: All right. Fine. 

MR. FRYMAN: There may be missing, in this exhibit, 
the first page of that document. 

Then, at page 1385, as your control number, as I 
indicated; there's a document headed 'Congressional/Public 
Affairs/Diplomatic Action Plan." 

MR. PRECUP: Hay I ask about that document, Mr. 
Fryman, please. Ours is marked "confidential." There's no 
indication of a removal of a security — 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Precup, that was as produced by 
you. 

Then, beginning at your control number 1389, 
there's a document dated April 17, 1985, headed "Calendar of 
Events Regarding Nicaraguan Resistance," which appears to be 
a t%ro-page document, and finally, at your control number page 
1391, there is a document dated ^ril 16, 1985, which is 
headed "The 208 Group." 

On each of these documents, where there is a 
confidential stamp, that stamp was on the document when it 
was produced your firm, as counsel for Mr. Miller and IBC. 

" - :— OlLASSIRFn 



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Q Now the documents that I have just identified, Mr. 
Miller, do you recognize those documents? Have you seen them 
before? 

A I've seen them before. 

Q Where did you obtain those documents? And if you 
obtained them from different sources, would you identify the 
source for each. If you obtained them all from the same 
source, if you would just identify the one source. 

A I can't tell you specifically who provided me with 
them. I believe they all came from the same source and it was 
probably Jonathan Miller at State Department, or possibly 
Oliver North, but I don't ever remember Ollie North giving me 
copies of a document like this. 

Q Did you ever discuss these documents, or any of 
these documents with Oliver North? 

A I don't remember a specific discussion with Oliver 
North about these documents . 

Q Did you ever discuss these documents with Jonathan 
Miller? 

A Again, I don't have a specific recollection of 
discussing them with Jonathan Miller. 

Q Is it your best recollection that you obtained 
these documents from Jonathan Miller? 

A It's my best recollection that I got them from 
either Jonathan Miller or Olivet Nprt, 



or Olivet North '^^Lf^ag , and I don't 



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remember specifically who gave them to us. 

Q Do you know who prepared these documents? 

A No. I don't. 

Q Do you know if Pat Buchanan had any role in 
preparing these documents? 

A I don't know who prepared them. I'm not aware of 
any role by Pat Buchanan. 

Q Did you ever discuss these documents with Pat 
Buchanan? . 

A I don't think so. 

Q Did you ever meet with Pat Buchanan? 

A I've met him one time, I think. 

Q That meeting had nothing to do with these documents? 

A No. 

Q What did you understand was the purpose of these 
documents ? 

A They were a reflection of events taking place in 
Washington, in the United States, that impacted on the 
Congressional vote for aid to the freedom fighters. 

Q Now, on the first page of this group of documents, 
the chronological event checklist dated March 1, 1985, which 
has your control number 1377, at the top, under the "Respon- 
sibility" column, there is a reference, "State/LPD," and then 
parentheses, (Miller), close parentheses. 

Now, in March of 1985, were you and your company. 



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IBC, performing services for the State Departmeat pursuant ta 
a contract? 

A Yes. 

Q Was that contract with the LPD office of the State 
Department? 

A Yes. 

Q Now was it your understanding, that the reference 
to Miller in the "Responsibility" column under State/LPD, was 
a reference to you? 

A No. 

Q Who did you understand that referred to? 

A Jonathan Miller. 

Q What was the reason you believed that referred to 
Jonathan Miller instead of yourself? 

A Because in other locations where our company was 
referenced, they usually put Gomez as opposed to putting 
Miller, and a couple of these things that are attributed to 
Jonathan Miller, we did not have any involvement in, such as 
the very first one on the list. 

We didn't send out the resource book on Contadora. 
That was done by somebody other than us. 

Q So, then, as an example on the next page, 1378, at 
the bottom of the page, again in the 'Responsibility" column, 
there is a reference to State/LPO, and under that, paren, 

at you just 



(Gomez), close paren. Is that an exa 



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referred to, of an indication of actions to be taken by IBC 
and Mr. Gomez, and you, pursuant to your contract with the 
State Department? 

A Well, it's action taken by Mr. Gomez. I'm not sure 
that is activity expected under the State Department contract. 
As you can see, in that same entry it also talks about Dan 
Kuykendall and Dan Kuykendall was not a contractor for the 
State Department. 

' There are many other people in this document that 
are in no way connected to the Federal Government. So this 
document seems to have relied on a number of people outside 
government to also take certain actions . 

Q So the reference to Gomez on page 1378 is unclear 
in your mind, whether that's a reference to your duties under 
the State Department contract? 

A Actually, no, I would say it's quite clear in my 
mind, that we did not set up the Bermudas, Tegrio, and Mike 
Liiga news conference — although I don't even remember Mike. 
Mike Lima was not at the news conference — on behalf of the 
State Department. That was done with Dan Kuykendall, the 
Gulf and Caribbean Foundation. 

Q Would you look through these pages and point out to 
me an example of the sort of entry you referred to where 
there is a reference to Gomez, and that means work under the 
IBC contract with the State Department 



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MR. PRECUP: If there is one. 
[Pause. ] 

THE WITNESS: On page 1380, at the very bottom, 
there's a reference to a Pentecostal minister, who name is 
Vallardo Antonio Santeliz, and he was somebody that Frank 
Gomez provided escort services for, and for whom we set up 
some press interviews. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q -That was work you were doing pursuant to the State 
Department contract? 

A Yes. 

Q Now in that entry, there's also a reference to Mr. 
Kuykendall, who you indicated earlier you did not believe was 
working pursuant to a government contract. 

Do you have any understanding as to why Mr. 
Kuykendall is referred to in that sane entry? 

A Yes. In our contract, we would try and find an 
org.anization to sponsor these refugees or these atrocity 
victims, and in this case, the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation 
agreed to sponsor this individual. 

Q All right. 

A On page 1381, there is a reference to Miller/Gomez 
for Pedro Juaquin Chamorro — misspelled — editor of "La Prensa" 
for a U.S. media and speaking tour, and that was an activity 
handled under our State Department contract ^^^jri'j alV% '' ^- 




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Q Now did you understand the reference to Miller in 
that entry to be a reference to you or to Jonathan Miller? 

A Jonathan Miller. I don't think there are any 
references to me, personally, in this document. 

Q Now, at this time in 198S, what was Jonathan 
Miller's position? 

A I believe he was still the deputy director of the 
Office for Public Diplomacy. 

Q ' He was an employee of the State Department? - 

A I believe that's correct, yes. Did you want me to 
continue? 

Q No. You've answered my question. Do you know why, 
Mr. Miller, that Jonathan Miller, as an employee of the State 
Department, would be distributing a document, which at page 
1383 have your control numbers — refers to the beginning of a 
"targeted telephone campaign" in 120 Congressional districts, 
for Citizens for America, district activists, organize a 
phgne tree to targeted Congressional offices, encouraging 
them to vote for aid to the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. 
MR . PRECUP > Excuse' me , Mr . Fryman . Did you say 
why Jonathan Miller would have been undertaking that? 

MR. FRYMAN i I think the question was do you know 
why. 

MR. PRECUP t Well, but I don't see Mr. Miller's 
name on this pages ■vwUtfim|p#)A4:^|C'\n the antecedent of 



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your question there. Why do you put in your question Jonathan 
Miller, when I don't see his name on the page? 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, Mr. Richard Miller indicated that 
he believed this document had been distributed to him by 
Jonathan Miller. ! 

MR. PRECUP: Oh, I think his testimony was not 
quite that. I think he said it was given to him by one of twol 
people, or one or two offices, and he wasn't sure which. Mr. 
Abramoff's name appears on this event list on page 1383, not 
that of Miller, Jonathan or otherwise. 

MR. FRYMAN: Well, that's true, Mr. Precup. | 

Let me ask some further questions . 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Is it your understanding that Jonathan Miller had 
any responsibility for the preparation of this chronological 
event checklist that we're discussing? 
A I believe he did, yes. 
_ Q All right. Now let me now ask the question that I 
asked a minute ago. Do you have any understanding as to why 
Jonathan Miller, as an employee of the State Department, 
included in this checklist the item with regard to a targeted 
telephone campaign that appears on 1383? 

A I have no idea why he included it. 



Q Did you ever discuss that with Jiiffl?, 
A No . 




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Q Did it. surprise you to see that item on a docxunent 
that you understood was prepared by an employee of the State 
Department? 

A I don't remember being surprised. 

Q Mr. Miller, turning to your control number page 
1391, which is the April 16, 1985 sheet headed "208 Group," 
what was the 208 Group? 

A I'm not really sure. 

Q >Was that a phrase that you ever used in conversa- 
tions at this time? 

A No. The only time I ever heard it was one day Fawn 
Hall used it. And I said who's that, and she ticked off a 
whole bunch of names, about seven or eight of them, and I 
remember I wrote them do%ni. In fact, I produced that piece 
of paper to you. It was Will Ball and some other folks. 

Q Do you know why your files contained pages such as 
page 1368 and the pages following that, which is the March 
20^ 1985, chronological event checklist, which have a 
confidential stamp on thera? 
( Pause ) 

A I have no particular explanation as to why. They 
simply were provided to us. 

Q And you believe that was by Jonathan Miller? 

A Again, I believe it was by one of two offices, 
either Jonathan Miller 'A ptfXoi fiSi^Uti.ir«ii»W«nh ' s office. 



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I also notice that there is on 1385 what seems to 
be an indication about declassifying. I don't know whether 
that means these were declassified or whether this is the 
office in charge of declassification. 

Q And following that are the initial OADR? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know what that refers to? 

A No. 

Q Turning in this exhibit, Mr. Miller, to the 
document that has your identification No. 2433 and 2434, 
which is a memorandum for Mr. Robert C. McFarlane of the 
White House — and this is a document that has been discussed 
to some extent previously in this deposition — that is a 
document that you prepared, is it not? 

A It is a document which I contributed to in a large 
percentage, and I believe by telephone, if I recall correctly. 

Q Tou mean you dictated it over the telephone? 
_ A Yes, I think that was the way it was done. 

Q Who did you dictate it to? 

A I don't remember. I think it was somebody over at 
the State Department. 

Q In Jonathan Miller's office? 

A I believe so. 

Q And the second page, headed "Contributions," did 
you also dictate that information? 



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A Yes. 

Q And the handwriting on that page, is that your 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know how you happened to receive a copy of 
this document back for your files if you dictated it to Mr. 
Miller's office, Mr. Jonathan Miller's office? 

A Well, I think that you see is a draft copy which 
came to m4, and I subsequently made recommended changes) and 
I don't think I have the final copy in my file. 

Q What did you do with the copy after you made the 
recommended changes? Did you transmit the revised copy to 
anyone? 

A I'm sure I did, but again I don't remember who 
specifically it was. But I think it was whoever I dictated 
the original document to. 

Q So you believe you sent it to Jonathan Miller? 
- A Again my recollection isn't complete on this. But 
I think that's the office that was handling this. And I 
can't remember the individual who I was dealing with over the 
telephone. 

Q Would you have sent this to Oliver North? 

A That's possible. 

Q Now, there's a reference in the memorandxim to a^ 
meeting on Tuesday, June 25, or Thursday 



ihe memorandum to a , 

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Is that June of 1985? 

A That is correct. 

Q And would this memorandum have been prepared by you 
a few weeks prior to that, or in early June or in May of 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q Why did you believe it was appropriate for the 
Department of State to request a Presidential meeting with 
Mrs. Newington? Because she had made substantial contribu- 
tions to programs designed to support the policies of Ronald 
Reagan? 

A Well, her contributions went beyond just supporting 
policy. It included a large number of political and humani- 
tarian gifts as well. Any one of those I feel would have 
qualified her for the appointment. In fact, we found it sort 
of extraordinary that she hadn't been to meet the President 
prior to this . 

If you go into the Roosevelt Room, the paintings 
tha£ hang on the wall, and if you go into the family quarters, 
the paintings that hang on the wall, millions of dollars 
worth of paintings were given years ago by she and her 
husband. So she has been a long-time supporter of the United 
States Government, and has given both to political and 
humanitarian activities. And so, for those reasons, she 
deserved an opportunity to meet the President. 

Q But, in this memora 



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request by the Department of State for a Presidential meeting 
with Mrs. Newington is described to be the contributions that 
are attached to the mefflorandum, is it not? 

A That's correct. 

Q And my question to you is why did you believe that 
it was appropriate for the Department of State to recommend a 
Presidential meeting on the basis of these contributions? 

A Well, it is, as I understand it, fairly standard 
practice for agencies and departments, the senior staff in 
those agencies and departments to recommend people to meet 
both the President and the Vice President and other in- 
dividuals when they deserve some recognition as citizens. 
And that's exactly what was happening here. 

Q Turning to the page with your Control No. 3572, 
which is a calendar for August 26, 1985, do you recognize 
that calendar? 

A Yes. 

Q Are the notations on that calendar in your handwrit- 
ing? 

A Yea. 

Q Now, there's a reference on August 26th to a 
meeting with Roy Godson at 10:30. 

Do you see that reference? 

A Yes . 

Q Do you recall what that meeting involved? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Ye«. I testified earlier that this meeting was to 
discuss a grant from, at that point, unknown to me, a 
contributor who turned out to be the Heritage Foundation. 

Q Was that a meeting that you had at Mr. Godson's 
office? 

A That's correct. 

Q What does 17 30 RI refer to? 

A That's Rhode Island Avenue. 

Q . Is that the address of his office? 

A Yes. 

Q And is 601 the office number? 

A Yes. 

Q Was this the first time you had met Mr. Godson? 

A I believe so, but I'm not certain of it. I had two 
meetings with him in his office, and I don't know whether the 
second was recorded in my notebook or not. 

Q But other than the two meetings with respect to 
this matter, you had not previously meet Mr. Godson? 

A No. 

Q Who put you in touch with Mr. Godson? 

A Oliver North. 

Q Did he tell you that Mr. Godson would be calling 



you? 



I honestly don't remember how it was left, but we 

o I don't know 



were to have a phone conversation rin iiiin 4 iiilin 



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who called who. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is 3120 is your 
control number, and it's a memo to you and Frank Gomez, dated 
September 30, 1985, from Dan Conrad, there's some handwriting 
on that sheet. 

Whose handwriting is that? 

A Mine . 

Q There are various requirements for the month of 
October described in that memorandum, including an RR letter 
to Barbara Newington and an RR meeting with Barbara Newington, 
and an RR meeting with Bunker Hunt, Ellen Garwood, Fred 
Sacher, and the Warms. After that, you have written the word 
" green . " 

what does the word "green" refer to there? 

A Colonel North. 

Q And does that mean that Colonel North was to 
arrange those items? 

A No. It meant that I wanted to — it was a mental 
note to myself to talk to Colonel North about it. 

Q Did you? 

A Without a subsequent checkmark and hashmark through 
it on this page, I don't see any indication I did. If there 
was a phone conversation with him or a meeting in which it 
was discussed, it would appear some place else, and itwould, 
probably be one of those marks through i 



:e else, and it would _. 



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I think this is just my reacting to Dan Conrad as 
he was explaining the things on my list, and my thinking 
about who I would go to see about it . 

Q So when they asked for a letter or a meeting with 
President Reagan at this point in September of 1985, it 
occurred to you that Colonel North was the person you would 
go to to arrange such a letter or meeting? 

A Well, that, and I would never undertake to have a 
meeting like that without letting Colonel North know that we 
were doing it. It would have been folly for us to do that. 
Q Well, was the notation here merely that you were 
going to notify him that you were going to try to do this, or 
was it a notation to indicate that you were going to attempt 
to arrange these events through him? 

A I think those are only notations that I intended to 
discuss it with him. I don't think it indicates that I was 
going to ask his assistance or just inform him, but that I 
waft intending to discuss it with him. 

Q At this point in time in September of 1985, whom 
would you contact to try to arrange a meeting with President 
Reagan for Barbara Newington? 

A I might have contacted the Public Liaison Office or 

the Political Office? 

Q Who? 

A John Roberts, Lynus Cochelus. In fact, some of the 



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briefings that we set up were set up through the Public 
Liaison Office or through the Political Affairs Office. 

Q Are these briefings with President Reagan? 

A The initial briefing with President Reagan, the 
recononendations began in the Public Liaison Office. 

Q When you refer to the initial briefing with 
President Reagan, to what are you referring? 

A January 27th, I think it was, 1986. 

Q Could that have been January 30, 1986? 

A 30, you're right, 30. 

Q Now, is it not true that David Fischer had a role 
in arranging that briefing? 

A He did. But again I think the original formal 
request started also in Public Liaison. 

Q But is it your understanding that David Fischer was 
the person who was responsible for arranging that briefing? 

A He had principal responsibility for it. 

Q Now, before David Fischer was involved with your 
organization, who had the principal responsibility for 
attempting to arrange meetings with President Reagan? 

A There was a shared responsibility between Mr. Gomez 
and myself. I'm sorry, I reacted wrong to your question, 
because I didn't hear you drop President Reagan at the end of 
your question. 

If your ijiHiiULHJ- 1 I ■! Itl. Jl^lfHTTI i I ^as a shared 



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responsibility. The only other meeting we- attempted to get 
for the President was the Barbara Newington meeting, and I 
had responsibility for that memorandum. 

Q And with whom did you arrange that meeting? You 
mentioned Jonathan Miller. 

A Again, I've forgotten who exactly we gave the 
original text to. But I believe the memorandum came out of 
the State Department and went to Robert McFarlane, and then 
was signed off by people within the National Security Council. 

Q Did you seek the assistance of Colonel North in 
arranging that meeting with Barbara Newington? 

A He was aware of it, yes. 

Q But did you also seek his assistance and support 
with respect to that meeting? 

A Yes . 

Q Now, turning to the next page in this composite 
exhibit, Mr. Miller, which has your Cffi@|^^HBf462i9Pne 
writiit^psoa^rinting appears on that page? 

A Mine. 

Q Did you draft this letter? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q And then if you will look at the subsequent pages, 
2887 through 2889, those are letters dated December 17, 1985, 
from Oliver North to Frank Darling^t^n,;_(lS.lvin Salwasser and 
Bill Bush. 




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Now, those Letters . -appear to be- the text that you 
drafted at 4462, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did you send that text to Colonel North for him to 
send those three letters? 

A I sent him that as a recommended text and these 
names and addresses. And I believe it's not completely 
identical. I think he changed it to suit his needs and 
signed them and sent them to the people. 

Q What were the changes that Colonel North made? 

A I think he left out the word "Nicaragua" after the 
word "democracy" in what was my final sentence. And he put 
"may God bless" in the body of the letter and used "Sincerely" 
as the salutation. 



He basically adopted the text you proposed, did he 



not? 



Yes. 



And then he sent you copies of the letters? 

Yes. Actually Fawn Hall sent them to me. 

Now turning, Mr. Miller, to the document with your 
Control No. beginning 2665 through 2687, which was a series 
of letters from Colonel North, dated January 24, 1986. 

Did you draft the text of those letters? 
A Basically, yes. 



At page 2 



im^RFS' 



s an address list 



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and an indixration of the proper salutation for. the letter. 
Were those pages prepared by your office? 
A I'm not sure whether the salutation and address 
pages were prepared by our office, but they were certainly 
supplied to Colonel North either through us or directly by 
NEPL. I've forgotten which. 

Q They were prepared either by you or by Mr. Chan- 
nel's office? 

A • Correct . 

Q And you drafted the letter? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the procedure for arranging for Colonel 
North to send this letter? 

A I either met with him or had a conversation with 
him about the need to send a thank you to the people involved 
in the NEPL efforts. And he agreed, if I would give him a 
draft, that he would send them thank you letters, which he 
did. 

Q And then he sent you copies? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the need to send letters to these in- 
dividuals, as you understood? 

A They were people who had contributed to the public 
education program of <C!>iiiuiiUi(!i% Endowment for Preservation of 



Liberty, and were being r< 



and were ^^Ji9^§60§§i-9^ 



for that contribution. 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q Was another purpose o£ this letter to prepare thejn 
for a further solicitation by Mr. Channell's organization? 

A That wasn't my purpose when I asked for them. They 
were simply recognition of contributions to the public 
education effort. 

Q What did you mean by the phrase, and I'm assuming 
that you wrote this phrase, but if you did not, correct me, 
in the last paragraph, or in the next to the last paragraph 
of the letter which states, "In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once 
again, your support will be essential." 

Did you draft that phrase or those sentences? 

A I don't recall whether that was specifically in my 
draft that I sent to Colonel North. But, in general^J*gg» I 
think it refers to the coming political debate associated 
with assistance to the f^reedom fighters . 

Q Were these individuals that you knew were going to 
be invited to the briefing at the White House on January 30, 
19867 

A It's a different year. I'm sorry, you're right, 
you're absolutely right. I'm sorry. 

No, I don't think that was the intended purpose of 
it. 

Q Did you expect tji^x X^Sfib^idd' vidua Is would be 



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solicited, again by Mr. Channell for the Central American 
Freedom Program which was getting underway in January of 1986? 

A I'm not being flippant. Don't misunderstand me. 
Of course. I don't know one fund raiser that doesn't go back 
and solicit contributors time and time again, depending on 
whether they provide money for a program prior to it, and 
that's standard operating procedure for political organiza- 
tions and fund raisers. 

Q Turning back, Mr. Miller, to the two pages in ■ 
advance of the first of the January 24, 1986, letters, which 
are pages 15026 and 15027, do you recognize those pages? 

A Yes. 

Q Where did you get those pages? 

A From Citizens for America, I believe. 

Q Do you recall when you got them? 

A Yes . We used to go and attend the general strategy 
sessions held either by Colonel Sam Dickens over at the 
American Security Council, or by Dan Kuykendall. And in each 
of those meetings, the Citizens for America people would hand 
out an updated list of their Congressional targets. 

Q What representative of Citizens for America would 
hand out this list, or a list such as this? 

A Peter ri^iiic^ I think was the one I remember. 



There may have been others . 
Q 



iTCjWi5^(*Tflrn 



a the group that was headed 



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by Lew- Lehman? — - - 

A Yea . I would mention also that there was ray 
handwriting on this list, and what that is is a reflection of 
a discussion with Dan Kuykendall where, in some cases, he 
didn't agree with their characterization of people as targets 
or. And sometimes I would take their list and compare it 
with what knowledge Dan Kuykendall had, and I think that's 
the note you see on it. 

Q . At pages 53034 through 53036, there are documents 
relating to the Heritage Foundation grant which we've 
discussed today, and which Mr. Kaplan has questioned you 
about at a previous session. 

This list of gran^ was it not, that was the 
subject of your meetings with Mr. Godson? 

A Yes . 

Q Did Mr. Godson tell you that he had been asked by 
Colonel North to raise funds ford 



A Mo, I don't think specifically I've been told that. 

Q What did he tell you? 

A He told me that he had a contributor who wanted to 
give money to the Democratic Bfeslstance, and that they did 
not want to give money to Mr. Channell specifically. And I 
came away from my meetings with him with the sense that this 
contributor was^logi^ing ^o^cQv^dfidDoney to political 



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omDatlve segments of the ( 



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entitxea and the non^comBative segments of the opposition. 
Non-f combatant, I should say, segments. 

Q Colonel North asked you to meet with Mr. Godson, 
did he not? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you understand your role with respect to 
the funds being raised by Mr. Godson was to provide vehicle 
for receipt of the funds? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did you discuss with Mr. Godson two alternative 
vehicles, one being the Cayman Islands bank account, and the 
second being the Institute for North-South Issues? 

A I remember discussing the Institute because that's 
what I later recommended to him. I remember discussing Mr. 
Channell, and I may have told him that somebody could give a 
contribution directly. 

Q To the Cayman Islands account? 

A I don't recall where I told him, but I may have 
said that somebody could have given a contribution directly. 

Q Now, is it correct that, at a later point, Mr. 
Godson had a discussion with you about using the Heritage 
Foundation as a vehicle for the contribution? 

A I don't recall a subsequent conversation, although 
I may have called him and somewhat surprised at the correspon- 
dence I receJc;nll4W> k^A Atff^^l^Ilou'^^^^lon asking for a 



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grant. I don't think I left his office knowing that it was 
the Heritage Foundation. 

Q Is it your recollection that the first knowledge 
you had of the involvement of the Heritage Foundation was the 
receipt of a letter from the Heritage Foundation? 

A That's my recollection, yes. 

Q After receiving that letter, did you then have a 
conversation with Mr. Godson? 

A ,As I said a moment ago, I don't remember a specific 
conversation. But I have a sketchy recollection of calling 
to express some surprise at the letter from the Heritage 
Foundation. 

Q Did you have a discussion of this letter from the 
Heritage Foundation with Colonel North? 

A I don't recall whether I did or not. 

Q Did you ever discuss in any way with Colonel North 
the use of the Heritage Foundation for transferring contribu- 
tions to entities associated with Nicaragua? 

A I don't recall having such a conversation with him. 

Q Did you have a conversation with Dr. Edwin Feulmer, 
F-e-u-1-m-e-r, about a grant from the Heritage Foundation? 

A If I did, I don't recall it. I don't recall having 
a conversation with him about it. 

Q On your file memorandum, dated December 1, 1986, 
which is your 0<i4M>flVt VRCftHi'H 41^ memorandum which you 



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OHCLASSIFIED 



prepared, is it not? 

A Yes . 

Q In the first paragraph, you state that the grant 
was provided to INSI at the request of the National Strategy- 
Information Center. 

How did you learn that? 

A That's Mr. Godson's organization. 

Q Yes . But who informed you that the Heritage 
Foundation grant had been provided to INSI at the request of 
the National Strategy Information Center? -^^ 

MR. PRECUP: He just answered that, Mr. Fryman. 
THE WITNESS: Yes. I don't know how else to answer 
it. Mr. Godson was the head of the National Strategy 
Information Center. I went to see him about the grant, and 
subsequent correspondence came from the Heritage Foundation. 
BY MR. FRYMANS 

Q Well, in your initial conversation with Mr. Godson, 
there is no mention of the Heritage Foundation, is that 
correct? 

A Right . 

Q Then you got a letter from the Heritage Foundation • 

A Right. 

Q — talking about a grant. 

Now, I'm not clear from your testimony that after 

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the receipt of the letter from the Heritage Foundation, you 
had any further communication with Mr. Godson. 

A Well, I'm not clear in my recollection about 
whether I had any subsequent conversation with Mr. Godson 
about it. But I seem to recall calling Mr. Godson and 
expressing some surprise about the Heritage Foundation letter. 

So I think that statement that you just read, the 
grant was provided to INSI at the request of another 50103 
organization, is in keeping with what I just told you.. 

Q So it's your belief that — your basis for that 
statement as a conversation with Mr. Godson after you got the 
letter from the Heritage Foundation, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q That's what I was trying to clarify. 

Now, in the third paragraph, you state that INSI 
retained a 20 percent administration fee for its distribution 
of this grant. And you go on, all other expenditures, and 
the memorandum reads where, but I think that's a typographical 
error, I think it should read were — 

A Correct . 

Q — made through Latin American nonprofit organiza- 
tions . 

And the paragraph earlier refers to an investigation 
and analysis of information available to international news 
organizations . 



iformation available to ir 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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1" 



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What other Latin American. nonprofit organisations 

were making expenditures in connection with this grant? 

A Well, anybody involved in the Nicaraguan Resistance 
is a nonprofit organization. And anyone involved ^i^^^lH 
UH|Bor the Democratic /Ilesistance political entities is a 
nonprofit organization. So I would have viewed any of those 
entities as nonprofit. 

Q Did you understand there was an investigation and 
analysis of information available to international nevrs 
organizations that was being undertaken as a result of this 
grant? 

A I would say that that is a simplification of what I 
thought the money was to be used for, and that as for the 
generation of news reports and information on political 
activities by those organizations. 

Q Nhat do you mean by the generation of news reports 
by those organizations? 

A Nell, any political entity or human rights organiza- 
tion or entity associated with a political movement that 
najgi^eii/ communicate with the public and the world at large. 
And they do that through the media. 

Q Mr. Miller, in this composite exhibit, a group of 
telephone messages begins at the page with your Document 
Control No. 3133. 

0« di^t%^|a V jVlV^!^!^T^<'^" ^° y°^ i'o^ ^awn — 



ifl(jmoT^?^n' 



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3131. 



yNCLASSIFlEO 



Q 3131, I'm sorry. 

— dated 9/17, which states give her a call re a 
Texas based group called Freedom's Friends. She wants you to 
do a little background check on them for Ollie. 

Did you understand this message came from Fawn Hall? 
A Yes. 

Q Do you recall this message? 
A • Yes . 
Q What did you understand you were being asked to do 



here? 



tion. 



To find out whether this was a legitimate organiza- 



Q How would you go about doing that? 

A Calling friends and associates. I don't think I 
did anything with this one though. 

Q Did you consider this an unusual request by Fawn 
Hall on behalf of Oliver North? 

A No. 

Q Did you receive similar requests on other occasions? 

A Yes. 

Q Turning to the next page, 3149, there is a message 

to you from Fawn, dated 4/9, which says has package which 
must be picked up today, and it continues regarding AAA 
meeting tomorsvi, ■ liCU ^ti<3iiXtL JifQKi^J^on 



mm mmti' 



igh Bob Ma^n. 



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Do you recall receiving that message? 

A Not specifically, but it's got my hashmark through 
it and that's what I do with my phone messages when I read 
them. So that means I looked at it or acted on it. 

Q Do you believe the date of this message was April 
9, 1986? 

A I'm really not sure. 

Q Who was Bob kmSmta? 

A 

the State Department in '86 but not in '85, so it would have 
to be 1986. 

Q Well, what was his position in the State Department 
in 1986 
A 



Oh, it would have to be 1986, because -iU^^^was in 



A 



t/ 



He was originally a deputy to Elliot/Abrams, 
actually an assistant to Ellioj^^rams, and then became the 
Coordinator of the Office of Public Diplomacy. 

Q Now, what does the AAA meeting refer to? 
. A Adolf o Calero, Arturo Cruz and Alfonso Robelo, and 
it probably had to do with meeting the President. I can't 
recall whether there was a meeting on that date or not, or on 
or about that date. 

Q And is that an example of an activity that you 
would work with Mr. ToJgo n on? 

A No, not generally. This again doesn't bring to 
mind any sp^cjj i<^^ct^^^^t^f^.f w tm ^ tke only other time I met 



WMItj^imrff 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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with. Mr. K <i «g « n on Msiatanca leaders was to. discuss-some 
politics associated with the leadership and a subsequent 
meeting I have already recounted to you in previous testimony 
for the establishment of an Uno Office. 

Q Do you recall what the package referred to in this 
message is? 

A No, I don't remember. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is 3161, there is a 
message again from Favm, which states that Fawn received a 
message that a Huck Walter in Staunton ^^^^^^^^B ^" looking 
for a contra to 'pressure his district.* Fawn doesn't know 
if Staunton is Virginia or not. 

Do you recall that message? 

A Yes, I think so. 

Q What did you understand pressure his district 
referred to? 

A As I recall, this gentleman wanted a contra to come 
in and condemn his opponent. And we turned him down. 

Q Did you understand Mr. Walter was a candidate for 
Congress? 

A I've forgotten whether he was the candidate or 
whether he was working for a candidate. But he was quite 



angry with me. 



Why did you turn him down? 
Because it was inappropriat 



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Q Why? 

A It was inappropriate to have contra leaders 
interjecting themselves into elections. It's not proper 
behavior. None of them would have done it either. 

Q Turning to the next page, there is an indication of 
a telephone message on February 28th from Martin Artiano, 
saying that he called from Jamaica to see how the meeting 
with Barbara Newington went yesterday, will call back later. 

Do you know why Mr. Artiano was calling you from 
Jamaica to see how the Newington meeting went? 

A No. I assume it was just general interest in Mrs. 
Newington 's meeting. 

Q Was that a meeting with President Reagan? 
A I believe it was. She had two meetings with the 
President. 

Q You're not aware of any additional information as 
to the reason for Mr. Artiano 's call? 

. A I think it was just professional curiosity. He was 
just keeping together with the effort. 

Q On the next page, Mr. Miller, there's a phone 
message from Roy Godson on December 5, which states needs 
information urgently. He's leaving for Europe tomorrow. 
Do you know what that refers to? 
A It seems to me that this was in reference to the 
Barness check. I think that's correct 



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Q .. What was the information that he needed urgently? 

A I think he needed to know who to have Mr. Barness 
make it out to. 

Q And did you convey that information to Mr. Godson? 

A I don't recall whether I did or not. It may have 
been that the check was simply left blank. 

Q Is it your recollection that the information that 
he needed urgently was unrelated to his European trip? 

A ' I don't remember it being related to his European 
trip. But I don't remember the specifics of this anyway. So 
I can't specifically remember. 

Q Do you recall ever providing any information to Mr. 
Godson that was related to a trip he was making to Europe or 
for him to use during an European trip? 

A I don't recall. If you give me more specifics, 
I'll try to, but I don't recall providing him information for 
a trip to Europe. 

Q Are you aware of any fund raising efforts ever 
undertaken by Mr. Godson to raise money in Europe for 
[related to Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q Turning to page 3250, there's a phone message from 
Ibrahim, I-b-r-a-h-i-m, which states he is on his way to 
Frankfurt, everything is all right,. will take care of telefax 
Do you recall receiving tl 



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Vaguely. 

Who is Ibrahim? 

al-Massoudi. 

Are you sure of that? 

Positive. 

What was the trip to Frankfurt that's referred to 



A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q 
there? 

A He was dealing with a connnodities broker in 
Frankfurt' on his oil transaction, and I believe the telefax 
refers to some information that I had requested he send me to 
try and verify this whole transaction. 

Q Turning to the next page, 3255, there is a reference 

6 

to a telephone message from Mr. topp of Switzerland. 
Do you recall receiving that message? 
A Yes, and that's the one I testified to earlier that 
when he called me back, I missed the phone call, and subse- 
quently got it, got another call. 

C 
At that time, did you know who Mr. ^opp was? 

No. 

Did you later learn? 

Yes. 

How did you learn? 

I think it was in a Washington Post article in 

December of this past year. 

Until then you did not know the identity of Mr. 

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And, based on that, whom do you believe Mr. ^opp 



A NO. In fact, you know it was the Tower Conunission 
report was the first time I saw it. 

Q 
was? 

A A i ^irai Secord. 

Q Mr. Miller, directing your attention to the first 
page of handwritten notes in Composite Exhibit 30, which has 
your Control No. 1723, there's an item there that reads • 
present him with a check, arriving late tonight, John Ramsey, 
$25,000. 

Is that in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when you made those notes? 

A Not the specific date, but sometime early spring of 
1985. 

Q What do those notes refer to? 

A I think it's a conversation with Spitz ChannelJ^and 
John Ramsey was making a $25,000 contribution. 

Q And when you say present him with a check, what 
does the "him" refer to? 

A I can't remember which him it is, whether it's 
Channell's organization or Mr. Calero. 

Q And it's Ramsex utft%% tf^VflH^P? late tonight 

A Yes 



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Q And he's going to present the contribution of 
S25,000 tonight? 

A I believe that's correct. 

Q Turning to page 1735, are those notes in your 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when you made those notes? 

A I was — I can recall where I made them. I believe 
it was May or June at al-Massoudi's residence in Fresno, 
California. 

Q May or June of 1985? 

A Correct. 

Q Are these notes of a conversation with al-Massoudi? 

A These are all things that al-Massoudi had told me 
and that I had also put a brainstorm on. 

Q Now, on No. 8 appears to be a name. What is that 



A Gordon Brown. 

Q Who is that? 

A I don't know. Somebody al-Massoudi said he knew. 

Q No. 9 appears to be the name William Sullivan. Do 
you know who that refers to? 

A This was supposed to be the Ambassador — he 
claimed that that was the U.S. Ambassador to Iran during the 
revolution, and_th£t^ hf Jj^^gggf^^ationship with him. 



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- Q There's also a reference to Michael Ledeen in 
there. Do you know why there's a reference to Michael Ledeen? 

A That was my idea, to call Michael and try and see 
what he knew about it . 

Q How did you know Michael Ledeen? 
A I met Michael as a Gulf and Caribbean scholar in 
1984, I believe it was. 

Q Does this page of notes refer to efforts to release 
the hostages? 
A Yes. 

Q Why did it occur to you to contact Michael Ledeen 
on that subject? 

A Because what I was trying to do was get some Middle 
Eastern history a t the tigie" of the Islamic revolution in 
Iran. And 1 had heard Michael speak about it before, and he 
seemed to be knowledgeable. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is page 1772, there 
appears to be a reference to the situation room and Room 208. 
Do you see those references at the bottom? 
Yes. 

Is that in your handwriting? 
Yes. 

What do they refer to? 
Briefings . v ; . ' •: - -, :-. .-. • .; . -.- 
About what? , 'i r ■• iVv'^'i >- i ' \ 



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A . Ceatral America, ta be given by Colonel North. 

Q And was one briefing to be in the situation room 
and another in Room 208? 

A No. I think what happened here was that Mr. 
Channeli wanted it in the situation room and it was held in 
Room 208. And I think it's the same date, the 18th and the 
18th. 

Q And this is a group briefing for Mr. Channeli 's 
contributors? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you recall the date of this briefing? 

A Not specifically. I thought there was more than 
one in Room 208. 

Q Now, there's a series of notes above those ref- 
erences that are very vague, but there appears to be the word 

MR. PRECUP: Is that faint? 
MR. FRYMAN: Very faint, yes. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q There appears to be the word Facel. Do you see 
that? 

A Yes, but I can't tell what the rest of it says. 
Oh, I know what this says. Mr. Channeli wanted to see if he 
could see Chairman Fascell and his Board of Directors 
MR. FRYMAN: Off the record 



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(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. FRYMANi 
Q Can you tell what the rest of the notes are there? 
A I just remembered that, because I have recently 
seen the original piece of paper in another setting. But I 
can't remember what the — I think I told him that he was too 
controversial and basically that it wasn't probably a good 
idea to ask. 

Anyway, I didn't see no checks or hashmarks so I 
didn't take any action. 

Q Turning to the next page, which is 1780, is that in 
your handwriting? 
A Yes. 

Q There's a note, Barbara Newington appointment 
before July 14th, $1 million. 

What is the basis for that note? 
A I think this entire page is a reflection of still 
outstanding assignments from Mr. Channell. And that was 
something that he wanted. 

g Well, what do you understand the appointment with 
Barbara Newington to involve? 

Was this again a reference to a meeting with 
President Reagan? 



I don't recall whether it was President Reagan or 



Colonel North. 



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Q What do you understand the reference to SI million 
on that sheet to be? 

A I don't have a specific recollection of what it's 
tied to. Whether it was something she already gave or 
whether it was something she was going to give. I don't 
recall. 

Q There's a further reference to a phone tapping firm 
in Connecticut. 

Do you know what that refers to? 

A Yes . Mrs . Newington was very uncomfortable having 
the Soviets in her neighborhood, and she attributed the death 
of Larry McDonald to the Soviet Union in a purposeful way. 
And she didn't feel very secure, and she asked Mr. Channell to 
find a firm that could check her phones for taps. And Mr. 
Channell asked us to do it. 

Q What do you mean that she was uncomfortable with 
the Soviets in her neighborhood? 

Was it your understanding that there was a Soviet 
residence near the residence of Mrs. Newington? 

A There's something right there in her neighborhood. 
I'm not quite sure what it is. 

Q Did you arrange for some measures to be taken to 
assure that Mrs. ^%^f>f ?^^ ' % Q|'l°Api W^jpil'S^ being tapped? 

Q Turni.ng to page 3196, are those notes in your 



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h£mdwritln9? . . 

A Yes. 

Q Now, there's a reference on that page to a spark to 
Houston. 

Does spark refer to Mr. Calero? 

A Yes. 

Q There's also a reference to Copa, C-o-p-a. 
Do you know what that refers to? 

A ' I believe that's an airline. 

Q Do you know the name of the airline? 

A No. 

Q And there's a reference to| 
Do you know what that is? 

A I believe that's the hotel he was staying in. 

Q Where was that? 

A I don't remember specifically. I looks like a 

lumber with six digits, but I'm not sure 
of that. 

Q Now, also on that page, there's a reference to 
Urick, U-r-i-c-k and what appears to be Tussif, Y-u-s-s-i-f . 
Do you see those references? 

A Tea. 

Q Do you know what those references referred to? 

A They are notes from a conversation with al-Massoudi, 
but beyond that l_doQ.'t have gnv specific recollections, 



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Q Do they have any relationship to your involvement 
on issues relating to Nicaragua? 

A I don't recall. I don't remember the name Hans 
Urick, and I don't have a specific recollection of that, no. 

Q Would you read that section of the notes for the 
record, beginning is it one Urick, U-r-i-c-k? 

A That's correct. 

Q And then would you just continue? 

A It says, Hans Urick-Danish. No. 2 is available. 
Yusiff offered by. No. 3 is 100,000 tons gas-oil. 

Q Is it your recollection that those three items are 
related, or do you know if they're related? 

A I don't have a specific recollection about the 
first item. The other two I'm sure are al-Massoudi items. 
But what they mean I don't have any specific recollections. 

Q Turning to the next page, and your identification 
nuo^r is not clear on that page, but the page begins \272, 000 
Mewington . 

Is that page in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall making these notes? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the circumstances under which you made 
these notes ^ 



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A It was a telephone conversation with Mr. Channell. 
It may have been a meeting, but anyway it was a conversation 
with Mr. Channell. 

Q Do you recall approximately when this conversation 
occurred? 

A No. Sometime in '86. 

Q Now, at the top, it appears to read §272,000 
Newington, and then you're subtracting $40,000 for ACT ads, 
leaving a balance of $232,000 with a note to send check' 
immediately, and then the word Friday. 

Do you know what that refers to? 

A I think I'm writing down what Mr. Channell was 
telling me. He told me he received a check for $272,000 from 
Mrs. Newington, \40, 000 of it was for ads for the campaign 
that the American Conservative Trust was sponsoring, and that 
they were sending a check foirv232,000. 

Q And was theY232,000 funds that were to be trans- 
ferred to the account from which disbursements would be made 
at the direction of Colonel North? 

A It was funds to be used for — yes, yes. 

Q Now, the next line states "Proof of battalion- 
Larry McDonald now and January 1 through Rich within one 
week . " 

Do you know what that refers to? 

MR. PRECUP: There are three lines, Mr. Fryman. 



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I'm not sure that each — you can check with the witness 
whether they're related. Nobody said they are. 
BY MR. FRYMAM: 
Q Fine. I mean would you just look at the next three 
lines, Mr. Miller, and tell me what you understand they refer 
to? 

A Proof of battalion. There was a lot of talk about 
the Larry McDonald Brigade. Adolf o Calero conunitted to 
forming orie. And Mr. Channell was looking for proof of the 
battalion. And there had been news reports about it, but no 
hard ^nspEk. that they were functioning. 

The now and January 1, I don't have a specific 
recollection. Or through Rich within one week, I don't have 
a specific recollection of either. 

Q Did you understand the $232,000 was to be used for 
any particular purpose? 

A I don't specifically remember. 
_ Q What are the notes beneath the line that says 
through Rich within one week? 

A The rest of it is a — part of the rest of this is 
a critique by Mr. Channell of Colonel North's briefing. 

Q And would you just read your notes for the record? 
A We felt it was too long and not current, and that 
it needed to be converted, it needed to lead off with an 



explanation about the southern front — j ; j- 



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Q Let me just interrupt you. • 

When you say it needed to be converted, what did 
you mean by that? 

A Converted into what Mr. Channel 1 thought it should 
be. 

Q And the following notes are a description of what 
he thought should be in the briefing? 

A Correct . 

Q Would you just continue with reading or your 
paraphrase of the substance of the notes on that page? 

A Southern front referred to the recent establishment 
of the southern front. The parties involved was an update on 
all the different entities who had joined the resistance. He 
felt when he said no little girls, there were too many 
children, and what was needed was a military update, and that 
military update should be front by front, including discus- 
sions of the sub-bases, plenty of visual effects, and a map 
showing the place for the FDN^^ . And he made a point for me 
to say to Colonel North that there were tigers in there — 

Q What does that mean, tigers in there? 

A That when Colonel North briefed his contributors, 
that these people were tigers and that they much preferred 
blood and guts, forget the discussion of humanitarian 
assistance, and that these were arch-fconservatives . 



He us 






< 



Texans look at 



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Lyndon as an example. 

Q Who was Ross Haley? 

A He was a Texan that wrote "Texans Look at Lyndon." 

Q Was ff^he one of the persons who attended these 
briefings? 

A Yes . And he recounted that Bunker Hunt had said to 
him that he didn't trust Adolfo Calero, and that what he was 
doing was coming out to sniff around or smell around, 
whatever that meant. 

Q And does that mean that Mr. Hunt had said that Mr. 
Calero was coming up to smell around? 

A No, no. Mr. Channell was saying that Bunker Hunt 
said he did not trust Adolfo Calero, and that he was coming 
up to Washington to smell around. 

Q He being Mr. Hunt was coming up to smell around? 

A Correct . 

The rest of it is general conversation notes of Mr. 
Channell, that he represented 17 millionaires, and that he 
wanted Mr. McFarlane for a drink at 8 p.m. 

Q When you say he represented 17 millionaires, 
there's a reference to August pledges, 
what does that refer to? 

A I think this is in reference to one of the July 
briefings. And Mr. McFarlane, he wanted Mr. McFarlane for a 
drink, and that he hoped that I would convey that Mr. 

mm fi^^'^-'m 



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McFarlane had some- enemies and he needed to make some 
friends. And he hoped to put a cap on Bert Horowitzjro anti- 
Bud -- McFarlane rather. 

Q Who is Bert Horowitz? 

A He's a fund raiser who was supposed — well, that 
Mr. Channell said was making disparaging remarks about Bud 
McFarlane. 

Q If you would turn to the next page, which appears 
to have your Control No. 4307, is that in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall making those notes? 

A Yes. 

Q What were the circumstances where you made those 
notes ? 

A 

Q 

A 

- Q 
A 



It was a phone conversation with Bosco Matamoros . 

And do you recall the approximate time? 

Mo. 

Nhat does the first item in those notes refer to? 

That they had captured a copy of a Cuban chemical 
warfare manual, them being FDN. 

Q Do you know why he was reporting this to you? 
A He often reported things like that to me in phone 
conversations . 

Q What does the second item refer to? 

A That lUnd JlellcQpters were operating in Nicaragua. 



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Q What does the third item refer to? . 
A That it was a unit of Sandift^ta trained combatants 
who were killing people and trying to draw the blame to the 
esistance fighters. 

Q Now, the third item has the words weapons, ammo, 
rifles, boats. 

A Boots . ^ _. 

Q Boots. That you believe refers to a unit of 
Sandinista trained combatants? 

A I'm sure of it. The M-16 machine guns, you'll 
remember the Newsweek article, the combatants in the Newsweek 
pictorial of the execution, supposed execution by FDN 
sources, were carrying M-16s. And they had fresh boots, and 
the FDN doesn't carry M-16s, never have, never will. And 
that's a unit of Sandinista soldiers who dress up as contras 
and go out and kill people. 

Q What does the last item refer to. No. 4? 
. A I think it's just a repeat of No. 1. It's a 
captured manual . 

Q Are pages 4244 through 4246 notes by you? 

A Yes. 

Q On page 4245, No. 2-A reads money in lake - make AC 
understand. 

What does that refer to? 

A I don't want to discuss it alone. The entire next 



. wa^ssifi 



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three items eure referenced to the same thing, and they're all 
mental notes that we had been giving an awful lot of money to 
lake resources, and Adolf o Calero# seemed reluctant to 
cooperate with our effort, and was inconsistent to us. And I 
was trying to raise it to Colonel North so that in an attempt 
to make Mr. Calero understand that we were the people giving 
the money to lake resources . 

Q Are these notes that you made for a meeting with 
Colonel North? 

A In preparation for either a meeting or a telephone 
conversation. 

Q And this is an outline of points you were to raise 
with him? 

A That I wanted to raise to him, yes. But I don't 
see any slash marks or hashes so I don't know whether or not 
I discussed that with hln. 

Q Do you recall approximately when you made these 



notes? 
A 
Q 
A 

Q 



Sometime in October I guess, September. 

October of — 

'85. 

On page 4246, No. 7-A states, "Bill Casey to weigh 



in after a reference to Bunker, Garwood, Harms and Sacher 
withRR." Bi^»?^! 



What does that refer to? 



BgliSSifO 



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A - Mr. Channell wanted a meeting with the President — 
for those four people together. And he wanted Bill Casey to 
weigh in and Linda Chavez to weigh in. 

I remember I did that in one of my notes, it meant 
that it was something that I dismissed or didn't take action 
on. 

Q At the bottom of that page, there's a reference to 
telephone logs, Prince Abdulah and Caleedf 
. what does that refer to? 

A I provided Colonel North with my telephone logs 
from ai-Massoudi's phone calls c ep c ftrfrAng t o- bo mad e to 
members of a Saudi Royal Family, 




^^^^^^^^^^ I have no idea 
whether they did it or not. 

Q The next page, 4316, does that page contain notes 
by .you? 

A Tes . 

Q Would you explain the notes at the top portion of 
the page, beginning with Barnes /Haailton? 

A This was a proposal by Congressman Barnes and 
Chairman Hamilton that had the backing of Congressman Fish 
and Jones, I guess, to take the $14 million that the President 
requested and, inAtead^ gJ-Yfi S.5_sijli$n to the International 



\f\ iMS 



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Red Cross ana.9 millioiv to the Contradora nations and nothing 
to the Jiesistance. 

Q And also on that page there's the word "Ollie" and 
four items . 

Would you explain what those items refer to? 

A Those were things I wanted to talk to Colonel North 
about. Kurt Windsor, I had heard, was associated with the 
Crocker family fortune, although I don't know how. I didn't 
understand what an L-1 was, and I thought maybe he would know. 

Q Who had spoken to you about L-ls? 

A al-Massoudi. 

I'm not sure, but I think Robelo's name was Just a 
reaction to President Reagan's compromise. And I don't even 
know whether the nightline thing is part of it or not. 

Q On page 4370, are they your notes? 

A Yes. 

Q WhM^d^ No. 9 refer to? 

A I think that had to do with a young lady that was 
stranded in Managua, NicuSftgua. And I was trying to enlist 
Colone l? ' l h Meg^^ §^BHB[i getting her out safely. She had 4jeen 
an extensive interview^p with Wesley Smith, and the Sandinista 
security forces had been around to visit her family to try 
and locate her afterwards . ^\^^i^% ^'If^lVi'^W ^^^ °"*' 
of the country safely. LlllLAd^iti lU/ 

Q Is the first word in that line "paper"? / 



551 



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Uh-huh. 

And what is the name in parentheses? 
iC 



refer to? 



545 




Who does 



I thinJc that's my — the reasons it's in paren- 
theses is I used ^^^^meaning the CIA, whoever at the CIA 



Why did you use the word 



was the CIA agent 



would handle that. 

Q 

A Because I knewl 
responsible for that area. 

Q I don't understand how the reference to the paper 
to someone at the CIA by Fawn Hall as soon as possible 
relates to a girl in Managua. 

A Well, there's only one group in Managua qualified 
to help get somebody out «dio the American Government has an 
interest in, and that's the Central Intelligence Agency. 

Q And what is the paper? 
. A It's just a name, address, and a description of who 
the girl was. 

Q And approximately when was this note? 

A I don't remember specifically. 
(Pause) 

^^^^^^^^^was associated 

■ r N. / ' s J »i J »• J ' !• r 2 « T% 
with the CIA? 

A 



Q How did you know that 



ffiT 



'Ml 

I had heard his name in telephone conversations. 



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Q With whom? 

A I shouldn't say telephone conversations. In 
conversations with Jonathan Miller predominantly. 

Q And Jonathan Miller had identified him as a CIA 
employee? 

A Correct . 

Q Had you ever met] 

A Not that I'm aware of. 

Q ' Mr. Miller, turning to the page with your Control 
No. 4611, beginning with that page, there are a series of 
pages with your consecutive document control numbers through 
your Control Ho. 4620. 

Would you look at those pages? 

A Yes. 

Q Does each of those pages contain a reference to a 
bank account? 

A Tes. 

Q What was your source of this bank account informa- 
tion? 

A Colonel North provided these to me. 

Q That's with respect to each account on these pages? 

A Yes. Except for your second one, which is a 
recopying of the first by me. 4612 was a recopying of 4611 
done by me. 

Q Let's just go through these. 



612 was a recopying oi to 

mmmts 



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A I have to amend that. I'm sorry. 4614 also was 
provided to me by Bosco Matamoros or Alfonso Cayallas. I've 
forgotten which one. 

Q Well, let's just go through these quickly one by 
one. 

Was the account on page 4611 provided you by 
Colonel North? 

A Yes, and so was that piece of paper. 

Q And you know whose handwriting that is? 

A No. 

Q But the piece of paper was given to you by Colonel 
North? 

A Yes. 

Q And page 4612, there's a copying by you of the 
information on page 4611? 

A Correct . 

Q What was the source of the information on page 
46413? 

A That was given to m© by Colonel North. 

Q Was it given to you in form? Was there a typewrit- 
ten sheet or cards which is reproduced on page 4613 given to 

A I believe so. i^' i! 1 VsLii ivl'^ J 3 %}r^%3 
Q And you say the information on page 4614 was given 
to you by someone other than Colonel North? 



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A Yes. - 

Q And that again was whom? 

A I think it was Bosco Matamoros or Alfonso Cayallas, 
but I think it was Mr. Matamoros. 

Q And he gave you that piece of paper? 
A No. He gave me this information and I took it down 
as he read it to me. 

Q So that ' s your handwriting? 
A ■ Yes . 

Q And 4615, what was the source of that information? 
A Colonel North gave that to me and gave me the piece 
of paper that it was written on. 
Q And 4616' 

Colonel North dictated that information to me. 

Whose handwriting is that? 

Mine. 

At the bottom of that page, there's a reference to 
75. to what appears to be N-e-i-l-l-e-s? 
A Nellie. 

What does that refer to? 

Nellie Livingston. 

And is th^t^^.directionto you from Colonel North? 

Yes. 

And what was the direction for you to give? 

To send $75,000 to Nellie Livingston's organization. 



a direction to you frc 

llASSiFia 



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Q What was that organization? 

Was that the Institute for Terrorism and Subnational 
Conflict? 

A Yes. 

Q And what is the reference under that? It appears 
to be five to Father something. 

A Five to Father LASSI. That was to Latin American 
Strategic Studies Institute run by Father Tom Dowling. 

Q , And what is the note after that? 

A I don't know. 

Q Turning tQ,.th«^iex^ pJM^ 4617, do you know whose 
handwriting appears on that page? a 

A I believe that is Colonel North's handwriting. 

Yes. 

What does it say at the top? 

account. 
What did you understand this account to be? 
It was ^^^^^^^M an account associated with 




Q Turning to the next page, 4618, do you know where 
you obtained that page? 

A It was given to me by Colonel North. 

Q Whose handwriting is on that page? 

A Well, I||l|ifiJ%thfp:fj, jyf j'Vi'^^Qij' °i people. I think 



iiMifiR^m 



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eassife 



550 



the line under the ID number is somebody I don't Jcnow, u. S. 
is somebody I don't know. U. S. is somebody I don't know. 0. 
S. is somebody I don't know. But the telex number was my 
assistant, who called to get their telex number so that I had 
the complete transfer information. 

Q Is this — 

A His handwriting is as bad as mine, so it is easily 
identified. 

Q .Is this one piece of paper that was given to you — 

A Yes. 

Q — by Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Directing your attention to page 4619, from where 
did you receive that note? 

A That is a hand%/ritten note on one of my note cards 
by Ad)lflfo Calero. 

Q That is Mr. Calero 's writing? 

A Yea . 

Q And did he give you, give that note to you? 

A Yes . I asked him to write down 'the bank number and 
address, and he did. 

Q Turning to page 4620, where did you receive that 
page from? 

A Colonel North gave it to mg .._ii_wss _a jtjip .of_ 
paper that that information was on. 



ngt-i.t^ffs _a Jtrip of _ 



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Q Directing your attention, Mr. Miller, to the 
following pages with your control numbers, 4623, 4624, and 
4625, 4626 and 4627 and 4628, are those pages in your 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when you made these notes? 

A Sometime in 1986. 

Q What was the purpose of making these notes? 

A .1 was trying to give Colonel North a more accurate 
system to keep track of the money that was in the accounts. 

Q Were these notes, were the notes on these pages all 
made at approximately the same time? 

A No, one of them is a more comprehensive document 
than the other, and superseded the other documents. 

Q Would you explain what you are referring to? 

A Yes, 4623 and 4624 ware an initial attempt, but as 
expenditures continued, multiple expenditures continued, for 
sone of the accounts that Colonel North asked me to send 
money to, I tried to keep a running total, and also to 
reflect the commitments that he told me he had made, so that 
his commitments didn't get out in front of his available 
resources. And that is what 2645 and 2646 are. 4627 and 
4628 were actually the crude beginning of that process, 
starting with the $1,250,000 grant from NEPL. 

Q So, tM iffiy itflw fJ l f ■ flgj-fli-Qrf or the chronology of 



ni^ram 



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these documents, the first effort would be 4627 and 4628? 

A Correct. 

Q The next draft would be 4623 and 26247 

A Correct. 

Q And the final effort reflected in these pages would 
be 4625 and 26? 

A You called them drafts, I wouldn't say that' they 
were efforts to keep the records on the expenditures made by 
Colonel Ntorth, and the final document, 462 5 and 4626, 
reflected the procedure that I chose to keep track of those 
commitments . 

Q Did you keep and give copies of any of these 
documents to Colonel North? 

A Yes, in fact, I think he received copies of all 
six, and I think I made them on his Xerox machine. 

Q Did you prepare them in your office? 

A Yes. 

Q And you took them to his office, and reviewed them 
with him? 

A Yes. 

Q And left copies with him? 

A Yes. 

Q On three different occasions, I take it? 

A I believe that is correct. 

Q Now — 



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IV 



A I am not sure whether it was three different 
occasions, frankly. But, nonetheless, he received copies of 
this. 

Q Let's focus on the last draft, which you have 
identified as Figures 4625 and 26. On the first line there 
is the notation, OB Grant, do you see that? 

A Yes. 

Q What does that refer to? 

A That's my shorthand, I use doughboys for the NEPL 
principles. 

Q What was the reason for using that phrase? 

A Nothing in particular, just didn't want to put 
their names down on a piece of paper. 

Q Did you discuss with Colonel North your identifica- 
tion of Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad as doughboys? 

A I probably used it in his presence, I don't know 
that I discussed it with him, before I decided to start using 
it._ 

Q Do you know if you informed Colonel North as to 
what the reference to DB Grant stood for? 

A Oh, I am sure I did, because I would have been 
discussing this with him. 

Q Now, just going down the list of commitments, there 
is a reference to Neal, is -that iM^ Livingston^? 



Correct . 



INCUSSiFIED 



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Q And ther« is a reference to LAS, what does that 
refer to? 

A That is LASSI, Latin American Strategic Studies 
Institute. . 

Q And that is Father Thomas Dttlii( ? ) ' l7 

A 

A Yes. And there is a reference to SI^^l^, what does 

that refer to? 

0/ 
A That's Ad)(lfo Calero's Organization. 

Q ' And there is a reference ^C)^^^H what does that 

refer to? 

A That is . 

Q Why did you use the phrase, ^^^1 to refer to 





^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^and 
memory jog for maintenance on living, special benefit. 

Q The next reference is WJ, what does that refer to? 

A Woodie Jenkins. 

Q And is Hr. Jenkins' organization Friends of The 
Americas? 

A That's correct. 

Q 

A Those were the Latin American Congressmen that the 
Nicaraguan Business Council brought up. 

Q The next reference is to Clutch, what is th*t? 
A That's Bosco Matamoros, 



What is the next reference, the COTC? 



to Clutch, what is that? , 



J '. 'i ^ i ;■ 'I • ' 



561 



vn CSam. NE. 
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555 



Q And is there a second reference to Clutch, with a 
date of July 24? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, under that there is a reference to new 
commitments, and there is the initials EK, what is that? 

A That's Dan Kuykendall, and that is the Gulf and 
Caribbean Foundation. 

Q Do you know the reason for that commitment? 

A Yeah. That was their agreeing to pay the bills for 
prosthesis surgery in Miami, and that was the reimbursement 
to them for that. 

Q And what is the reference under DK? 

A UW. 

Q And what is that? 

A That is Uno Washington. 

Q And does that refer to the Washington office of the 
United Nicaraguan Opposition? 

A Yes . 

Q And on the next page there are the initials TZ, 
what does that refer to? 

A That was a final payment to Tony Zumbado for some 
death benefits tiiafc JukMaa APi«f |*tfPn^° some of his camera 

M&SSIFIED 

Q Now, also on that page, which is 4 626, toward the 
bottom, by what appears to be October, there is a number 17 



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and some initials that appear to be -AGRO, do you see that? 

A Yes, that is the October 17 transfer to AGRO. 

Q What is that? 

A That's what was listed in the AGRO Bank for POLCA 
S. A., in the previous documents that you asked me about. 

Q What did you understand POLCA S. A. was? 

A I have no idea. I still don't know. 

Q Mr. Miller, turning to page 4924 — 

,MR. PRECUP: Mr. Fryman, excuse me, could we go off 
the record a moment? 

MR. FRYMANt Yes. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMANt 

Q Directing your attention to page 4924, is that your 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall making those notes? 

A Barely. 

Q Do you recall the circumstances under which you 
made those notes? 

A Yeah, there was some need for, I think this is the 
very beginning of the heavy lifting information passed me by 
Colonel North. 

Q What is heavy liftj 



• i 



■■- ONClASSinED 



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A ■ Large payloads transported by air bo the I^esistance 
/t'orces inside Nicaragua. 

Q And does that note indicate that it was , that 
$875,000 was needed for that purpose? 

A For 800 hours of heavy drops, with L-lOOs. 

Q Turning to the next page, 4925, is that your 
handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall making those notes? 

A Yes. 

Q What was the reason you made those notes? 

A These notes were given to me by Colonel North, as 



to the place to send contributions 



A 



all aircraft. The 



top half is the account data for the bank in Geneva, Switzer- 
landi^ and the bottom half is a general description of the 



Yes, in that money for 1^> aircraft was to be sent 



aircraft that would be purchased with $60,000. 

Q Hell, are the two halves of the page related? The 
notes on the two halves of the page. 

A 

to Geneva, Switzerland, but I am not sure whether they were 
both written at the same time. 

Q Was that the first time Colonel North identified 
the Lake Resources Account in Geneva, Switzerland to you? 

A I don't recall whether it was the first time or 



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558 



Q If you would turn to the next page, which is page 
4926, there are some notes on that page which appear to say 
Country profile on Brunei for Dave and Martie. Do you see 
those notes? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q What do those notes refer to? 

A ' I wanted to get a country profile on Brunei to give 
to Dave Fischer and Martie Artiano. 

Q Why was that? 

A Because I wanted to see if we could get Brunei 
as a client. 

Q What was the reason you thought of Brunei as a 
possible client? 

A Because they would be a great client. 

Q Anything more than that? 

A Nothing more than that. 

Q What is the word under that, on the next line? 

A Anthony. 

Q Who does that refer to? 

A Our accountants . 

Q And under that? IIAIAI M f%^twawwm^ 

A DK. 



ONCLASSIFIED' 



Does that refer to Mr. Kuykendall? 



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Yes. 



Q Do you know why there is notes referring to your 
accountants and Mr. Kuykendall, at that spot? 

A Probably just that I wanted to call both of them. 

Q Are those notes related to the note with respect to 
a country profile on Brunei? 

A No. 

Q Mr. Miller, if you would look at page 4927, and 
also page -4928, are those notes in your handwriting? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall making those notes? 

A Yes . 

Q What were the circumstances when you made those 
notes, or under which you made those notes? 

A They were a telephone conversation with Bosco 
Matamoros, in which he was recounting a call from a — actually, 
I thin^an article that was published, or about to be pub- 
lished, I think in the Miami Herald, but I am not sure if I 
remember. 

Q And these notes relate to a summary of the allega- 
tions in the article? 

A Yes. It is so exact that it must have been post- 
fact. In other words, it must have been already printed, and 
he was reading it. 




Turning to page 4963, are those notes in your 



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handwriting? 



A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
North? 
A 



Yes. 

Do you see the reference $30, Ow would be neat? 

Yes. 

What does that refer to? 

That's what Colonel North said. 

Are these notes of a conversation with Colonel 



Yes, 



Q Was that his phrase, $30,000 would be neat? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall when this conversation occurred? 

A Sometime in 1985. 

Q Do the notes above that refer to information about 
a specific bank account? 

A Yes . 

Q And was he asking you to raise a certain amount of 
money? 

A I don't recall whether it was raise it or transfer 
it. 

Q What does $50,000 at the top refer to? 

A I think he was looking for $50,000. 

Q But then later, he said $30,000 would be neat? 

Q Yeah, but that was $30, 
Tool, and it is referenced at the 



-"imiFiED 



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Q And was there an additional $20,000 to go to the 
Indians? 

A I see the note, but I don't recall it. Transfer 
$20,000 to the Indians. 

Q What is the number at the bottom, N0056838? 
A I don't know. 

Q Turning to the next page, 4970, is that your 
handwriting? 
A ■ No . 

Q Do you know the source of this information? 
A Carlos Ulvert gave this to me, I think. 
Q Turning to the next page, 11002, is that your 
handwriting? 

A Yes . 

Q What do those notes represent? 

A That was an initial attempt to get some handle on 
the money coming in, and expenditures by me for Colonel 
North. 

Q The references to contributions, and a particular 
date, what do those refer to? 

A NEPL contributions. I would like to point out that 
that was an abortive attempt; it is not very complete. 

Q That's one of your earliest attempts? 

A Yes. It may well have been just an attempt from 

memory, there may »yVf,l3ftV # A"tJ?gaUf JJt document, with an 



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earlier date. 

Q Turning to the notes which are on page 19302, is | 
that your handwriting? i 

A No. 

Q Do you know who gave you those notes? 

A Well, wait a minute, some of this is in my handwrit- 
ing, yes. Yes, this is my handwriting. 

Q Do you know the reason that you made those notes? 

A ' Yes . 

Q What was the reason? 

A In December of 1985 there was a lot of confusion 
about the ad campaigns that Mr. Channell had sponsored, and I 
wanted to create a time line that showed the ad campaigns, 
and the different organizations responsible for them, to make 
it easier for members of the media^ and officials to under- 
stand who was doing what, at what time. And this is a basic 
piece of paper, that was my instruction to one of my employ- 
ees, as to how to go about doing it. 

Is the name on that page Peter blaji; ^t.^ ? 



Yes. 

Do you know why that name is there? 

No. 

Turning to page 23345, is that in your handwriting? 

Yes. 

What do those notes relate to? 




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A I think this was the — it is two different things. 
The first is a Miami International Airport Corporate Air 
Center and ^ail plumber, and that was when we flew some of the 
Resistance leaders up to Washington for one of Mr. Channell's 
events. And then the bottom half is the information on the 
backside of a telephone, for the phone company to be able to 
turn on the service. 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
• (Discussion off the record.) 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

Mr. Miller, I have no further questions, I believe 
that Mr. Oliver now has some questions. 

EXAMINATION BY ASSOCIATE STAFF COUNSEL OF THE HOUSE 

OF REPRESENTATIVES 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Miller, earlier in this deposition, in one of 
the previous sessions, you indicated that you had worked as 
oKief of News and Media Relations for AID, from February 1981 
until February of 1982, is that correct? 

A I think my actual title, from the very beginning, 
was the Director of — I have forgotten, head of the Media 
Relations Division, and then I was quickly promoted to the 
Chief of n4ws and I^edia^i^lations . 

Q And |ll\t service at AID was from what period to 
what period? 



rvice at AID was 1 

LASSIFIED 



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A I think it is February until February. 

Q Eighty-one to '83? 

A The total AID service is '81 to '83, that is 
correct. 

Q And when you left AID, your title was Director of 
Bureau of Public Affairs? 

A It was not a Bureau, it was an office, and I was 
the Director of the Office of Public Affairs. 

Q And what level was that in? 

A It was a SES political appointment. Level 3, I 
think. 

Q Was it at the Deputy Assistant Secretary level? 

A It was not at the Deputy Assistant Secretary level, 
there was an effort by Mr. MacPherson to put it back to the 
Deputy Assistant Secretary level, but it hadn't come to 
fruition yet. 

Q So it was just below the Assistant Secretary level? 

A Again, well, first of all, AID doesn't use Assistant 
Secretary, it uses Assistant Administrators, and there was an 
Assistant Administrator for External Affairs, but as you are 
well aware, the legislation called for an Office of Public 
Affairs/ and an Office of Legislative Affairs, botftyfiy 
Directors who were n^t. Presidential appointees, with^Senate 



confirmation. So we were Presidential appointees, without 
Senate confirmation. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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Q Who was your boss? 

A Peter MacPherson. 

Q You reported directly in the chain of command? 

A When I was Director of Public Affairs I reported 
directly to Peter MacPherson, and Jay Morris, the Deputy. 

Q Did you meet Frank Gomez during that period of 
time? 

A I did. 

Q And what was his position at that time? 

A When I first met Frank he was Deputy Assistant 
Secretary of State for Public Affairs. 

Q Did you participate in interagency groups, in which 
Mr. Gomez participated? 

A And that was in fact the occasion of our first 
meeting, he and I together called an interagency meeting on 
El Salvador, and 1 believe in February of 1982, and I sat in 
on interagency meetings, and I can't recall specifically if 
Mr.. Gomez was there or not. 

Q What agencies participated in those meetings? 

A There were a couple of different groups, there was 
the Interagency Steering Committee, and I can't, off the top 
of my head, remember all the people, there had to be 10 
Federal agencies represented there. 

And then there was a Central American Policy 



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represented . 

Q Did DOD sit on both of those interagency committees? 

A I know they sat on the Interagency Committee, I 
don't recall whether they sat on the Policy Committee. 

Q Were representatives of the intelligence community 
sitting on both of those committees? 

A I was never introduced to anybody as a member of 
the intelligence community. 

Q 'CIA was not represented in those interagency ' 
committees? 

A Don't ever remember seeing, they used to pass 
around a sheet, and I don't ever remember seeing CIA on the 
sheet. 

Q Why did you decide to leave AID? 

A I don't like working for the Government very much. 

Q Tou have been working for the Government for two 
and a half years, or something a little over two years, at 
that point? 

A And when I came to Washington I started as a 
Federal employee, when I graduated from college, and then 
left the Government in 1976, I already had tiig=«K r a h a l 'f 
years of Federal Service, so I am quite familiar with serving 
at the bottom and the top of the Federal 
didn't like either one of them, so I 

Q What did you do immediately upon your resigning 



iral Ga\^rnment, and I 



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from AID? 

A I started International Business Conununications , 
and began work on developing clients. I had a consultant's 
contract with AID for some media roundtable work, and there 
was one other thing in the contract, which I can't remember 
off the top of my head, but it was a consultant's contract, 
and it required me to provide some services to the Ad- 
ministrator of the agency. 

Q How long did that contract run? 
A Well, it was for a year, but as I recall, it did 
not run its full term, it ran, I want to say six months, but 
at this stage I can't remember, but we both, Peter MacPherson 
and myself, agreed that it was just, neither one of us wanted 
it to continue, and so we stopped it. 

Q What was the amount of the compensation for that 
contract? 

A I believe it was whatever the top consultant's rate 
is,. «^ich is usually consistent with whatever the SES rate 
is, so they are usually pretty much the same thing. 

Q Did you have any other Government contracts during 
that period of time, the first year, after you left AID? 

A No. 

Q ".^f"^" ^*!^ Ji??™^»-S*.^***^ y°" ***** * Government 
contract? 



USSIFIED 



Well, Frank Gomez started, excuse me, the initial 



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contract in February, in fact I think the contract was signecj ' 
February 22nd, with the State Department, in 1984. And I 
don't think it was until 1985 that they were IBC contracts, 
they originated as Francis D. Gomez, and then became Francis 
D. Gomez International Business Communications, after we 
began to form the partnership, and eventually became Inter- 
national Business Communications, as Frank was a partner in 
International Business Communications. 

Q When Frank Gomez received the first contract, in 
February of 1984, what was his relationship to you, at that 
point? 

A He was planning to come on board as a — attempting 
to come on board as a partner, but his responsibilities at 
that time were, in accounting terms, as a subcontractor. 

Q A subcontractor? 

A To IBC. 

Q To IBC. But did the initial contract with the 
Sta-te Department have your involvement, in any way? 

A The initial contracts with the State Department, 
our only involvement was in providing staff services and 

administration, for Mr. Gomez. That would have been our 

I 
involvement. 

Q But it was his contrpct?. 

A That's correct. 

Q And were you sharing offices at that time? 



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A Yes. At what time? 

Q At the time that he got the first State Department 
contract, in February of 1984. 

A Yes. 

Q But you didn't have a business relationship, other 
than arms-length subcontract'^contractor arrangement? 

A No. I think you improperly injected the word 
" arms- length. " Subcontractor doesn't mean that you are at 
arms-length. It is an accounting principle. Frank Gomez was 
a subcontractor to IBC, in terms of accounting. Both he and 
I were working towards a full partnership, and he did 
maintain some other work which he did not bring into IBC. 
That is a general description of his business relationship to 
me. 

Q Where did you derive your income from in 1984? 

A From clients. 

Q Any of those clients related to Central America? 
. A Tea . 

Q Which ones? 

A The Gulf and Caribbean Foundation, predominantly 
the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation, in 1984. Well, the Gulf 
and Caribbean Foundation. 

Q When did that relationship begin? 

A I think it was in December of 1984, maybe November. 

Q Between January of 1984 and December of 1984 did 



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any of your work relate to Central America? 

A Yes, the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation. 

Q I meant prior to, you said December of 1984, was 
when you thought that Gulf and Caribbean began, and I was 
asking from January of 1984 to December of '84, which is 
almost a year. 

A Well, I said that I believe we started working for 
the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation in December or November, so 
prior to gur work for the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation. our 
contact with Central America would have been, in general 
terms, we represented a UH agency that was involved in 
funding the Third World development projects, some of which 
were in Central America. 

We represented, of course, I had the consulting 
contract with AID, and AID is deeply involved in Central 
America, and the media roundtables would have incorporated, 
as it was a hot subject at the time, Central America. 
_ Q I thought that you said that the consulting 
contract ran from February of '83, when you left AID, for 
about a year, and then you didn't- 

A Correct. 

Q — do the whole time. So what I am trying to do is 
to fill the gap in between that contract and the Gulf and 
Caribbean relationship, which I assume would be late in 1983 
until late 1984, so my question is, during that period of 



n't-- _^, 

ICUSSIFItO 



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ONCUSSIflEfl 



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time, after the consulting contract with AID, prior to the 
Gulf and Caribbean relationship, did any of your clients 
relate to Central America? 

A Again, the HH agency that I just described to you, 
and the others, but only in general terms. We worked with 
20th Century Fox, who was doing an Olympics project, I guess 
you could say that related to Central America, but only in 
general terms. 

Q How big a staff did you have during that period of 
time? 

A Two people. 

Q You and one other, or you — 
A Myself and two others. 
Q Two others . 
A Yes . 

Q When did you begin to participate in the State 
Department contracts, as a consultant, or when did you begin 
to J)e compensated for work that yoa did in relation to the 
State Department contracts. 

A You asked two questions . We were trying to form a 
partnership, and Mr. Gomez put his proceeds from his profes- 
sional efforts into the general coffers of International 
Business Communications, in an effort to develop enough 
business to sustain atpartn$rstw-B«^ ^T^^ is the answer to 
your second question. 




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- The first question was that initially my respon- 
sibility was to provide administrative and professional 
backup to Mr. Gomez, and that incorporated everything from, 
you know, developing media lists for his work, providing 
files for development of articles. 

So really, from the start, we were involved, all 
the people were involved in Mr. Gomez's contract. 

Q When did you first meet Otto Reich? 

A I can't tell you exactly when, but it was sometime 
in 1981. 

Q While you were at AID? 

A That's right. Otto was the Assistant Administrator 
for Latin America. 

Q Was Mr. Gomez's first contract with the State 
Department under the office that Otto Reich headed at that 
time? 

A Yes. 
. Q Did you have any participation or involvement at 
all in securing that contract? 

A I don't recall having any, no. 

Q Do you know Halt Raymond? 

A I have met Walt Raymond, yes. 

Q When did you first meet Walt Raymond? 

A I think Raymond came to some of the interagency 
group meetings. I don't recall specifically which ones, but 



ONCLASSIFIED 



579 



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I think he was present at some of them. And Prank set up a 
lunch one time, I think, and maybe it was a breakfast, and I 
met Raymond one time. 

Q When was that? 

A Sometime in 1984, I think. 

Q What was the purpose of the breakfast? 

A Just a get^acquainted session. 

Q Do you remember what was discussed there? 

A No . 

Q Did you have any dealings with Walt Raymond, after 
that? 

A Occasionally, because in 19884 he had some involve- 
ment in the information development on the Reagan Administra- 
tion policy in Central America, and I am sure I have had 
telephone conversations with him, or been to meetings at 
which he was present. 

Q Since that breakfast, and since you left the 
Government? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you remember what the substance of those 
conversations with Walt Raymond was about, if you can 
remember? 

A I can't remember the substance, they would have 
been generally about Central America, Reagan Administration 
Central American policy, but spe ci f icallv. I can't remember 



n policy, but specifically, I can't 



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any of the details. 

Q Old he ever discuss fi S >h your work for Spitz? 

A Mo, not that I can recall. 

Q When did you — I am sorry, you said earlier that you 
met Jonathan Miller in the 1980 campaign, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q And that you became good friends? 

A No. 

Q ' Over a period of time? 

A I didn't really get to know Jonathan until our work 
together at AID. 

Q And what was his job at AID? 

A He was in the Legislative Affairs area for a while, 
and then went to become a country Director, somewhere, I 
forgot where. Assistant Country Director, I have forgotten 
what position it was, but he trent off to Africa, I think. I 
cail'i remember specifically. 

_ Q Was that for AID, or for the Peace Corps? 

A Could have been for the Peace Corps . 

Q And then when did you renew your acquaintanceship? 

A when he popped up again at the State Department, in 
Otto Reich's office. 

Q And during the time that Frank Gomez had contracts 
with LPD, was Jonathan Miller the official technical represen- 
tative for the _5J;p J^ Qeoartment , on those contracts, the 



> _State Department , on th< 



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yiUSSIFIED 



575 



person responsible for the oversight? 

A I don't remember who was responsible in the first 
contract, and that is probably because I wasn't involved in 
the direct negotiations on it. But the people whom I recall 
us reporting to would have been Otto Reich, Jonathan Miller, 
John Blacken and John Scath. 

Q You reported to all four of them? 

A At different times, yes. And some of them simul- 
taneously. For instance, John Blacken and Jonathan Miller 
were Deputies, there were two Deputies under Otto Reich, and 
then when Jonathan Miller moved, John Blacken moved up to 
that Deputy slot, and I think John Scath moved into the other 
one. 

Q You started to report to them after IBC got its 
first contract from the State Department? 

A That's correct. 

Q When was the first IBC contract? 
.A It was signed on Febmiary, I believe the date is 
correct, it was signed on February 22nd of 1984. 

Q That was the Gomez contract? 

A That's correct. 

Q The first three contracts were in Mr. Gomez's name, 
but they were with him, not with IBC. My question was when 
did IBC get its first contract with the State Department? 

A I am not_sur9 I 'SffT M'Saafc y""" characterization, I 



tiMrR^^i^fti 



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don't have a copy of the contracts in front of me. But I 
believe that one or two of them said Francis D. Gomez 
International Business Communications. 

Q So you started to meet with these people from the 
time that Frank Gomez had this contract, had his first 
contract? 

A I can't be that specific. I can't tell you whether 
in the first three months of Frank's being at IBC whether I 
met with ?ny of these people or not. 

Q From October 1st of 1985 to September 30th, 1986, 
IBC had a contract with the State Department that was 
classified as secret, which was substantially more than 
previous contracts that IBC and Frank Gomez had with the 
State Department. 

Could you tell me when you began to negotiate that 
increased level of contract with the State Department? 

A During the completion of the previous contract, 
which was for 90^some thousand dollars. We were asked by 
John Blacken to review the publication distribution system, 
and we had given an assessment of its effectiveness. It was 
a short process, and the results of our exploration were 
startling to us, disheartening to us, because we had put a 
lot of work into developing materials to be disseminated to 
the public, only to find out that they were not getting 



disseminated 



(lfrif/t^i?r?iftf 



istribution mechanism. 



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They were very distressing to Otto Reich and John 
Blacken, because that was one of their charges. And the 
subsequent contract negotiations started almost immediately, 
with them asking for a recommendation to have us add the 
distribution process to our responsibilities of media 
relations, escort services and political counseling. 

So we made a proposal for Ms increased contract, 
with a separate section for the distribution, and that seemed 
to move quickly, until it got to the Contracts Office, who 
then informed us that this was an entirely different form of 
contract, that it would have to be redone, as a cost-plu^ 
fixed>fee contract. By this time we were already beginning 
to perform the same services that we had provided in fiscal 
1985, in fiscal 1986, land we were assured by the Contract 
Office that they would produce a ratification letter, so that 
we would not be performing these services without compensa- 
tion. And %«« then irant through the process of negotiating a 
coat-plus fixed^ fee contract, something that I would not wish 
on anybody, it is a pretty deliberative process, including 
having OCAA auditors in your offices, and full exploration of 
your books, and demands for accounting practices, and so 
forth. 

And that all took a long period of time. In fact, 
%re didn't even finish up until we were through a great 



preponderance o 



sioned under the 



584 



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contract. 

Q So the new component, the way in which this 
contract differed from the previous $90,000 contract, was the 
distribution system? 

A That's correct. 

Q So why was it classified secret? 

A Well, I can tell you why I thought it was classified 
secret, and recount a conversation with Jonathan Miller to 
that effect. We had drawn the interest of — we are right up 
against the other barrier we were up against before — we 
discussed this in a previous deposition. 

I don't know, do you want to go off the record? 
MR. OLIVER: Yes, let's go off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. OLIVER: Before we go any further, Mr. Miller, 
do you have a security clearance from the U. S. Government at 
this point? 

THE WITNESS: I am not sure of that. We had one, 
and we were notified by the Office of State Security, State 
Department Security Office, that they were going to lift it, 
so I can't tell you whether it is in force right now or not. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q When was tt^^ la^,jtifie^^^^9^^d a personal 
securi 

A Up until a matter of three or four iraeks ago. 



:..:r:;MKM! 



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ONCLASS 






579 



Q You testified earlier that you had worked at, I 
believe, the General Services Administration, and then the 
Department of Transportation, and then AID. 
A Yes. 

Q During those periods of time you had Government- 
authorized security clearance, isn't that correct? 
A That's correct. 

Q Is it your understanding that when you terminate 
the employment for which the security clearances are neces- 
sary, that the security clearance is also terminated? 

A It is my understanding that the security clearance 
is predicated on employment, so that a security clearance is 
undertaken when you are employed, and you maintain your 
clearance as long as you are employed, with the caveat that if 
you have longer than a three^month break between employment, 
then you have to go through the security clearance process 
all over again. 

- Q Well, between February of 1983, when you left AID, 
and became a private citizen, and October 1st of 1985, what 
would have been the reason for you to have a security 
clearance? 

A I didn't have a 
Q When did you- 

A Although I am 3ur« the Agency for International 
Development considered my clearance active while I was a 



KCTED 



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consultant to Mr. MacPherson, but he would have to answer 
that one. 

Q Were you ever notified that you had a security 
clearance, while you were a consultant? 

A It isn't vacated if you have no break of employment, 
is what I am trying to tell you. 

Q Well, my understanding of security clearance is 
considerably different. My understanding is that you have a 
security Clearance, on a need^tc^know basis, for work that 
you are performing for the Government, and once you stop 
performing that work, you no longer have a security clearance, 
and I think, all the clearances that I have had, you had to 
sign papers to that effect. And I know if I leave my 
employment my security clearance is no longer in effect. 

And that is why I am asking you whether any steps 
were taken to maintain your security clearance, after you left 
the Government. 
_ A No, 

MR. PRECUP! By you? 

THE WITNESS: By me, none were taken by me. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Do you know of any steps that were taken to 
maintain your security clearance, while you were a consultant 
to AID? 

A Not that I am aware of. 



UNClWF^nrq 



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Q The contract which you were performing in the 
amount of $90,000, which preceded the, I believe it ran 
through September 30th, 1985? 

A Correct. 

Q Did that contract require a security clearance? 

A No. 

Q But the contract that began on October 1st, 1985 
required a security clearance, is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q And it required a security clearance for how many 
of your employees? 

A Well, ultimately it was decided that there were 
only two employees to be cleared, and that was Mr. Gomez and 
myself, and that was decided finally by the Defense Investiga- 
tive Agency. 

Q And did they notify you that you had received 
security clearances? 



i^y 



-u 



. A They notified us that/both an interim security 
clearance and the final security clearance. 

Q Were those security clearances for you and Mr. 
Gomez, or were those facility security clearance for your 
office? 

A They were, under the circumstances, actually one 
and the same thing, because we were not cleared to have 
classified materials, custodial responsibility for classified 

HMO! ?'»«'"rn 



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. DC. 20001 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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materials, and we are the facility, since it was a partner- 
ship, so they decided finally it was only necessary for them 
to clear the two of principal partners, which they did. 
Q When did they give you an interim clearance? 
A I don't remember specifically, sometime in about the 
middle of the year. 

MR. OLIVER: If I may, I would like to ask the 
reporter to mark this as Miller Exhibit 31, and indicate that 
this is a 'compilation of documents that are related to the 
IBC-State Department contracts. 

MR. BUCK: I was just going to suggest that the 
witness look at the exhibit. 

MR. PRECUP: Now, Mr. Oliver, this is a thick 
document, so rather than having the witness go through it, 
would you invite his attention to the specific areas. 

MR. OLIVER: I will invite his attention to various 
pages as vb go through, rather than ask these questions, I 
will try to have him look at these documents, so he can 
refresh his memory from them as we discuss them. 

(The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
31 




BY MR. OLIVER: 11^ 
Q If you would look at the second page of that 



IHED 



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compilation o£ documents, January 11th, 1985, which is a 
memorandum to International Business Communications, and ask 
you to identify it? 

MR. PRECUP: I am not finding this. 
MR. OLIVER: Page two, the next one, the very next 
page. 

MR. BUCK: It is just a three page document. 
MR. PRECUP: To whom? 

,MR. OLIVER: It is a January 11, 1985 memorandum/ 
MR. PRECUP: We found it. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I would like to ask you to examine that document, 
and tell me whether or not you have ever seen it before. 
A Yes. 

Q Is this document an accurate reflection of the 
services that Frank Gomez and IBC performed for the State 
Department on the $90,000 contract that ran from, I believe 
it ran fiscal 1985? 

A No, actually I think this is fiscal, no, you are 
right, it is the first quarter of fiscal year 1985. 

Q Actually, it looks like the last quarter of fiscal 
1984 and the first three months of 1965, but let me rephrase 
the question. 

Is this an accurate reflection of the work that IBC 
was doing for the State Department in January of 1985, had 



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)07 C Sllftl. N E 2 5 

Vaihuipon. D C 20002 

12021 VM.WJ66 



(ib 



LASSIFIED 



584 



been performing, for the State Department? .-.. ....... . 

A Yes. 

Q Were you involved in any or all of these 10 items? 

A Many of these 10 items. 

Q Was anyone else, besides you and Mr. Gomez, 
involved in work for IBC, involved in these activities? 

A Sure. 

Q Who were the others who had responsibilities for 
any of th^se specific items? 

A Jeff Keffer, Jacqueline Clemonds, Mona St. Leger, I 
am going to embarrass my employees when I don't remember all 
their names, Anna Chrysler, and some subcontractors, as well. 

Q Number 2 on that list, says Creation and Implementa- 
tion of Immediate Plans for S/LPD-directed newsmakers, what 
does that mean? 

A There were people who S/LPD brought up to Washing- 
ton, to have them address the media on Central American 
issues. People like defectors, atrocity victims, refugees. 

Q When you say LPD brought them up, what do you mean, 
do you mean they paid for them? 

A I can't tell you who paid to get them here, but 
once they got here they were S/LPD' s responsibility. 

Q Do you know who paid their expenses? 

A Not specifically,, no. We would sometimes get 
organizations to sponsor them^ and have those organizations 



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pick up thalr expenses . But that was Washington expenses , or 
U. S. expenses. But how they got to the United States^se 
"nisr, I can't tell you who paid for it. 

Q What made you think that S/LPD brought them up? 

A Well, I will use a different phrase. I was aware 
that when they got here they were S/LPD' s responsibility. 
Obviously S/LPD would have had some coordination in getting 
them here, or they wouldn't have been able to notify us that 
they were coming. 

Q So you were asked by LPD to create and implement 
media plans for these people? 

A That's correct. 

Q And did that include appearances on television, and 
press conferences, interviews with newspapers? 

A That's correct. 

Q Did it include appointments with Government 
officials? 

A Some of their schedules included Government 
officials, but those appointments were not generally set by 
us. In fact, they were rarely set by us. 

Q Who set them? 

A Somebody in S/LPD. There was normally an official 
in S/LPD who had responsibility for these people. We also 

ion to make 
some contacts foi 



sometimes depended on the sponso^igo 



ed on the sponsojiM^cai 



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Q Number 3 says writing, editing and distribution 
plans for ^^^c and news articles for S/LPD officials, and 
S/LPD-designated newsmakers. Who were the S/LPD officials 
that you refer to in that? 

A John Blacken, Jonathan Miller, Otto Reich, anybody 

who would sign an (UIVCB^ or letter to the editor. 

A 

Q So you would write them, and edit them, and they 
would sign them, and then you would distribute them to 
newspapers? 

A No, we would write them, and edit them, and then 
give them a distribution plan, and they would distribute 
them. 

Q What are S/LPD-designated newsmakers? 

A There were a lot of people within the State 
Department, and Defense Department who were participants in 

5, 

the S/LPD ne«naking process. 

Q Do you remember who some of those people were? 

A Not off the top of my head. 

Q Number 10 says "Served as liaison with groups 
active in promoting democracy through programs in Central 
America and the United States . " Which groups were you the 
liaison with promoting democracy in the United States? 

A Well, I guess you can read that sentence that way, 
but we were not engaged in the business of promoting democracy 
in the United Statas^ We were engaged in the business of 



tas^ We were engaged in 



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iClASSiHED 



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_ 1 il promoting Central American democracy, and we did that 
2 I sometimes in the United States. 



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Q Do you remember some of the groups that you served 
as liaison with? 

A Yes, PRODEMCA, Gulf and Caribbean Foundation, 
Freedom House,' I am tired, and those are the only ones I can 
remember off the top of my head. 

Q So those were — 

A .Institute for Religion and Democracy, Catholic 
Church, The Evangelical Association. 

Q So your interaction with those groups, from 
September of 1984 to January of 1985, was part of your 
responsibilities, under your State Department contract, is 
that correct? 

A We were sometimes asked by officials of S/LPD to 
represent them in n^eetings, or such organizations. But it 
didn't account for all of our contact with those organiza- 
tions. 

Q In the summary, at the bottom of the page, it said 
that "The above activities were carried at the direction of 
S/LPD." So is it safe to assume that all of the things that 
are listed there were done at t,heir-dijecij^n? 

A Yes. 




uL 



'fi 



Q You indicated a minute ago, when I asked you who 

performed these things, you listed a number of people, and 



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you also said .several subcontractors. 

A Yes, I misspoke. He didn't use subcontractors 
until our 1986 contract, although we may have used them after 
this contract. 

Q After that date? 

A Well, after December, there may have been some 
subcontractor use. 

Q Was there another report submitted to the State 
Department on your activities, other than this piece of paper? 

A Oh, sure. There were several reports. In fact — 

Q I am talking about for this period of time, from 
September of 1984 until January of 1985. 

A I will say that there were many reports submitted. 
Off the top of my head I can't tell you whether any fell in 
that three> month period or not. And I believe the staff has 
been provided with an entire notebook full of those reports. 

Q When did you begin work on your fiscal year 1986 
contract that was designated as secret? 

A The first day of fiscal year 1986. 

Q How could you perform the secret contract, if you 
didn't have a security clearance? 

A I don't think it had been stamped secret at that 
point in time. 

Q Well, how did you know what you were supposed to be 



doing, if you didn't have the contract? g gij^ a i O '^ -> t .- -• 



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A We were doing exactly what we had done the year 
2 1 before, with the addition of the distribution activities. 



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Q But what you had done the year before did not 
require a secret clearance? 

A No. 

Q So was it the distribution system that required a 
secret clearance? 

A No. 

Q .Why did you need a facility clearance for your 
offices? 

A We didn't, and I don't think we ultimately got one. 
We ultimately got a clearance for the two principal members 
of the firm, I think that is the way they finally did it. 

Q Let's look at the contract. 

MR. OLIVER: If you would look at, about half-way 
through this packet, at a letter from the Defense Investiga- 
tive Service. The bottom of it has a designation, j-2. 
MR. PRECUP: We have it. 
BY MR. OLIVER! 

Q That is a letter to the Chief of the Procedures 
Security Division, Department of State, from the Defense 
Investigative Service, indicating that the facility was 
granting- an interim "secret" security clearance on July 30th, 
1986. It doesn't have the capability to safeguard classified 
material . 



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Prior to July 30th of 1986 when you received this 
interim "secret" for the facility, but without storage 
capacity for classified material, had you ever been given any 
notification that you/ or Mr. Gomez had received individual 
security clearances? 

A No. I don't think so. 

Q Were you ever notified that you/ or Mr. Gomez, 
during the period of this contract, had received security 
clearances? 

A No. 

Q When you signed this contract on September the 2nd, 
1986, did you have a "secret" security clearance? 

A No. 

Q How could you read the contract if you didn't have 
a clearance? 

MR. PRECUP: I think that's a rhetorical question. 
THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I read the contract — 
MR. OLIVER: Well, I mean, it's a serious question, 
and it's one that's been raised by a number of people, is how 
could somebody without a "secret" clearance read a "secret" 
document . 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Was there any discussion^f^ that when you signed 
this contract? 

A Yes. I was given it by the contracts officer to 



there any discussion of t 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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sign and then she took back the contract. 

Q But you did not have a copy of it? 

A I did not have a copy of it. 

Q Was it stamped 'secret" at the time you signed it? 

A I think so, but I'm not sure. 

Q So you did not have a copy of the contract at any 
time during the period of your performance of the contract? 

A That's correct. I believe that's correct. 

Q How did you know what the contract contained? How 
did you know what you were supposed to be doing? 

A Well, we had been doing it for some time, and we 
had also made the original proposals that were the basis of 
the contract. We met with the OCAA auditors, we'd in- 
stituted their accounting procedures. We had instituted 
their time and billing records requirements, and we were 
reporting, regularly, to the Prograjn Office. 

Q If you will look at a document in this stack dated 
February 7th, 1986, which is a letter from you to Lana 
Berryhill, a contracts specialist, dated February 7, 1986, on 
International Business Communications' stationery. 

If you will examine that document and the attached 
pages, and tell me whether or not you've seen it before. 
First, is that your signature? 
A Yes . 

Q Did you draft that letter? 
. ^ A * ^ 



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111 A I don't--I'm sure I didn't draft this letter. 

2 i Q Who would have drafted this letter? 

3 A It was probably a collegial effort between my 

ii 

4 1 attorneys, my accountants, and our office manager. 

i! 

5, Q Well, if you will look at page two, it is headed 

6 "International Business Communications/State Department 

'i 

7 i| Contract Proposal." 

ij 

8 'l Is it your understanding that you were proposing, 

9 'I at that time, a contract, proposing that the State Department 



accept a contract for you to do this work? 

A No. This proposal had been standing since 1985, 



12 1 and was, as I described to you in earlier testimony, a 

13 H ridiculous and deliberative process that took a long time, 



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and this is one stage in it. I can't put it for you in time, 
but because of the way the figures are indicated, it would 
seera to be after it was decided that it had to be rewritten 
as a cost-plus, fixed-fee contract, and the subsequent pages 
also bear that out. 

Q If you will look at Enclosure "C" there, several 
pages back, it has a IBC-proposed overhead budget, January 
1st through December 31st, 1986^ and the amount proposed 
there is $278,000, and something, on the bottom line. 

Was it your proposal that this contract run for the 
calendar year January 1st through December 31st, 1986? 

A This ai^B^ .^%f l£CJhi-&r>a^a ^&.P^oc@ss you go through 



m& 



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11 to establish a overhead budget — or an overhead rate, and this 

2 is the budget that you prepare in order to establish the 

3 ; overhead rate. It is only a different time line because 

4; that's what IBC's accounting is on, was on a calendar year, 

5 I and that's why it's written January 1st through December 

I 
6 ] 31st. 

7 i Do you understand the distinction between the 

8 j budgets needed to establish an overhead rate and the actual 
9; budget for the contract? They are not one and the same- 

10 thing. This is an accountant's procedure to establish an 

11 overhead rate. 

12 I Q On the first page of these documents, it indicates 
I 

13 \ overhead costs for the period of January 1st through December 

14 i 31st, 1986, and on page two, it has a State Department 
15 i contract proposal. 

16 Are you indicating to me that this is not a 

17 proposal? That this is a contract that you were already 

18 wocking on? 

19 A I'm indicating to you that wo continued the work we 

20 had undertaken in fiscal year 1985, and continued it into 1986 

21 with the addition of the contract for the distribution, and 

22 we were assured by the contracts office that they would give 

23 a ratification letter when the contract negotiation was 

i 

24 finally resolved. 

And wf^ii^^Rii'-re holding in your hands, in toto, is 



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_ 11 the correspondence that's a reflection of that "back and 



2 ' forth" with the contracts office. 



Q Did you receive that assurance in writing? 

A NO. 

Q Your 1985 contract ended on September the 30th, 

1985, is that correct? 

A Correct. 

Q So you had no contract from that point forward? 

A Well, according to the Legal Office over at State 



10: Department, and according to our attorneys, we did have a 

I 
11 i contract because we proposed a formal contract that was 

12 '} identical to the other, plus an additional contract amount for 

13 i what was requested of us, and that was accepted by the Program 



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Office and by the Management Office, and it wasn't until it 
got to the Contracts Office that they decided not the 
substance but the form of the contract had to be different. 

And it was the Contracts Office that assured us 
that they would give us a ratification letter. 

Q Who assured you they would give you a ratification 
letter? 

A Lana Berryhill, and another gentleman that was in 
the meeting, and I can't remember his name, but he's--no, no, 
this was somebody — I can't remember the gentleman's name, but 
I'm sure Ms. Berryhill will remember the meeting. Both Frank 



self were present. And i 



Gomez and myself were Ei^esent.___An<^it was stated to us on 



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two occasions that there was no problem, we would have a 
ratification letter, but this contract had to be done as a 
cost-plus, fixed-fee contract. 

Q So they told you to go ahead and start work without 
a contract? 

A No. They told us when the contract negotiations 
were finished, they would do a ratification letter, and they 
felt that we had a contract. 

Q When were the contract negotiations finished? 

A September of 1986. 

Q Were you ever told during that period of time that 
you shouldn't be performing any work without a contract? 

A No. 

Q Did anyone from the State Department ever tell you 
that they had been told that you should not be performing 
this work without a contract? 

A I don't recall anybody telling us that. 
. Q How many different proposals did you make ?or this 
fiscal 1986 contract? 

A As I recall it, there were about three of them. 

Q Did they differ in amounts? 

A Yes. They kept getting bigger, with the final 
contract being considerably larger than what we had originally 
proposed. That amount being dictated by the Inspector 
General's Office, and their reading of the costs associated 

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with the contract. 

Q Well, how did you know how many people to assign to 
this contract if you didn't know how much you were going to 
be paid for the work? 

A Well, we had proposed an amount that was sufficient 
to meet the personal needs that we had working on the 
contract. It's my business to know that. 

Q If you will look at the September 11th, 1985 
memorandum for Frank Gardner from IBC. 

A September 11th, 1985. Okay. 

Q This is a memorandum for Frank Gardner from you 
dated September the 11th, 1985, subject, "Revised Draft 
Contract," and the first sentence says, "Attached is a 
revised copy of our proposed contract for FY 1986." 
Do you recognize that document? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that your signature? 
. A Yes . 

Q Enclosure 1 says, "Renewal of existing SLPO 
contract, FY 1986." Do you remember that provision? 

A Yes. 

Q Why was the existing SLPD contract with IBC not 
renewed? 

A It was renewed. I don't understand your question. 
MR. PftEClJB^-I 'J> J»ot ^lif.P__J understand, either, Mr. 



w 



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i: Oliver. yl^yLh^Ola iLt 

2 1 MR. OLIVER: Your October-- 

3-; THE WITNESS: May I point your attention-- 



MR. OLIVER: It says, "Based on similar services 
provided FY 1984 and FY 1985." 

This was a different contract in FY '86. 

MR. PRECUP: Different from? 

MR. OLIVER: Different from the contracts that they 



9i had in FY' 1984 and FY 1985. 

10 ! THE WITNESS: Well, I'm willing to answer your 

ii 

11 jj question, if you read the next sentence which says: "Alsc 

12 'i included is a description of the services to be provided 

13 'I under the renewal of the current contract, and cost and 



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services to be included in the management of SLPD's distribu- 
tion system. " 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Was your contract ever renewed? 
_ A Of course. We considered this contract to be 
renewed when we have to perform the same services we ' re 
providing in the former two fiscal years. 

Q Were you ever told that it was not possible, under 
the regulations, to renew this contract without putting it 
out for public bid? 

A I don't recall being told that, no. 

Q Have you read the Inspector General's report of the 

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State Department IBC contract? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you recall that report indicating that they felt 
there was no justification for the classification of the 
contract being "secret" and that the reason for doing so was 
to avoid putting out the contract with IBC for public bid? 

A I read that and I also read Otto Reich's rebuttal 
to thatv^which stated that that was not the case, and I would 
concur with Ambassador Reich, and that's a matter still in 
dispute with the Inspector General. 

Q So it's your testimony that you performed this work 
beginning on October 1st, 1985, even though you did not have 
a written contract? 

A We felt that we had a written contract. We had a 
written contract. We didn't have a signed contract. 
Actually, for some portions of that period, we did have a 
signed contract because it was signed by the administrative 
officer of the Program Office, and also by the person in the 
Management Office, and it was not until it got to the 
Contracts Office, after those two signatures, that it was 
decided that it had to be a cost-plus, fixed- fee contract. 

Q But you did not have a copy of a contract? 



A Of course I did. 

Q Signed by who? 

A Signed by the administrative officers of SLPD,and 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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signed by the Management Office of the Secretary's Office. 

Q When did you obtain that signed contract? 

A Those were the documents that were transmitted to 
the Contracts Office, and made the Contracts Office decide 
that it had to be a cost-plus, fixed-fee contract. 

Q Do those contracts that you refer to exist? 

A I would assume there are copies of them at the State 
Department . 

Q ^ell, the document that we were just discussing, 
dated September the 11th, 1985, your revised draft contract, 
has attached to it, as one of the attachments, expenses for 
the above services in the amount of $126,500. 

A Yes . 

Q Is that the basis upon which you began to perform 
your work on October the 1st, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Q That was the rate at which you paid your IBC staff 
members and yourselves for that period of time? 

A No. 

Q Why not? 

A Because IBC's senior partners made — as you can see 
from our records provided to the Committee — considerably more 
than what was the S%S rate, but under a federal contract, 
that's all the government will allow, so the time associated 
with our service under this contract, as senior partners, was 



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507 C SirMi N E 2 5 

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UNCUSSIFIED 



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billed at the S^S rate. 

Q So this proposal doesn't mean anything? 

MR. PRECUP: Well, wait a minute, Mr. Oliver. 

MR. OLIVER: Well, I'm trying to determine. I 
asked him whether or not this was the basis for the work that 
was being done. 

THE WITNESS: And I said yes. 

MR. OLIVER: And except for it doesn't apply to — 
the salaries part is incorrect? 

THE WITNESS: Well, you then subsequently asked me 
whether the salaries reflected here were accurate, what we 
paid ourselves, and I told you that they were not, and 
neither are they in the subsequent cost-plus, fixed-fee 
contract. IBC partners Frank Gomez and Rich Miller made 
considerably more money than that, but that is the only 
allowable rate under the federal contracts system, and that's 
what the rate billed to the State Department was. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q What I'm trying to determine, Mr. Miller, is 
without a contract, and without an accepted proposal, how did 
you know how much money to expend on these services during 
this period of time? 

MR. PRECUP: I'm going to object to that question 
because it is inconsistent with the witness '# testimony. His 
testimony was that he did have a contract and did have an 

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accepted proposal. 

THE WITNESS: I might also point out, that I 



3 I believe that there is a subsequent document to this, issued by 



il 
4 1 Mr. Gardner to the Administrative Office, and I would 

j 
5 I encourage that you try and secure a copy of it. I think 

i 
6, there is a signed contract. 

7 I MR. OLIVER: I will indicate that we have received 

8j all of the signed contracts from the Department of State. 

9 I They've indicated to us that we have received all of the 

10 I contracts, and that this contract that was declassified is 

i 
11 j the only contract that existed, according to the State 

12 I Department, between October 1st, 1985 and September 30th, 

13 j 1986. 

14 I If you have another contract that we don't know 
about, we'd be very happy to receive a copy of it. 

[Witness and counsel confer.] 

THE WITNESS: I don't have it in my possession, and 
if. I did you'd be welcome to it. But I don't have it, and if 
they don't, I guess they didn't retain a copy of it. 

MR. OLIVER: Well, they've indicated to us that, to 
their knowledge, no contracts other than these in our 
possession exist. 



W C Siren. N E 
VuhiniTon. C 20001 



BY MR. OLIVER* 



Do you have a document dated October 3rd, 1986, a 

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lULUH RVOKTINO CO.. INC. 
507 C Si««. N E 25 

Vaihmiton. D C :0002 



_ 1 ! memorandum to Edwina Brown from Robert KJigen? 

2 i A Yes. 
I 

3 I Q Would you examine that document. On the second 



page, there is a letter from you to Robert K/^gen dated 
September 16th, 1986. 

A That is not a letter. That is an invoice, as 
dictated by the contract . 

Q An invoice. Is that your signature on the invoice? 

A ■ Yes. 

Q Are these attachments to that invoice--did you 
submit those along with the invoice? Is that a part of the 
invoice? r 

A Yes . , " . •_ 

Q Are those figures that you've compiled? 

A Yes. 

Q Are they accurate figures? 

MR. PRECUP: I'm going to object to the form of 
that question. I think you know, Mr. Oliver, the Inspector 
General of the Department of State has, for many months, been 
examining the books and records of IBC in connection with the 
fiscal 1986 contract, and in a«d**«** 'case/ has pointed out 
discrepancies, what I would consider, and I think even the 
Inspector General cons ideredAf airly minor amounts, but it is 
a large contract and it covers many, many different things. 
There are also some areas where the Inspector 

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mxni KCrOHTINO CO . INC. 
!07 C SitCCT. N E 25 

Wuhin|ton C :00a2 



General and IBC have very strong differences of opinion about 
the accuracy or propriety of certain of the charges here. I 
think if you rephrase your question in terms of what you 
beliatl at the time-- 

MR. OLIVER: I'll rephrase, counsel. 
MR. PRECUP: Thank you. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Did you believe, at the time, that these were 
accurate figures reflecting the expenditures made by IBC- in 
pursuit of performance of the State Department contract 
during fiscal year 1986? 

A Yes. 

Q How much of the costs associated with that invoice 
were for services provided by you and/or Mr. Gomez? 

A I can't answer your question, looking at this 
document. I would have to go back into very extensive files 
to give you a percentage. It's not possible for me to answer 
it from this, or off the top of my head. It's an extremely 
complicated — 

Q Is it fair to say that you and Mr. Gomez did not 
provide 50 percent of your time to the State Department 
during the 12 months that that contract was being performed? 

A Again, I'd have to go back to my records and look 
at the time and billing records for that period, to give you 



a percentage. 



..•IMP.IIiSSIFIED 



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art604 



UNClASSra 



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1 ; Q Did you have access to classified documents of any 

2 ' kind during the period of this contract, from September of 

3 ': 1985 to October of 1986? 



A Not that I'm aware of. 

Q Do any of the figures in the overhead costs in the 
invoice that you submitted on September 6th, 1986 reflect 
expenditures that dealt, in any way, with classified materi- 
als? 

A I don't believe so, but you're asking an awful 



13 


cally. 


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have a 


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clearai 


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Miller 


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mxiN tvponnta co.. mc 




507 C Sirett. N E 25 


Q 


W»ihin«ton. D C JOOOl 




(202) M(.-6M6 





10 ;i finite question, and I will give you a tentative answer, and 

that is, I don't believe so. But X would have to go back and 
12 ' sit down with lawyers and accountants to answer it, specif i- 



Did anybody at IBC, during that period of time, 
have a government security clearance? 

We had a clearance in July of 1986. 
Did any of the individual employees have a security 
> 

No. Well, other than Francis Gomez and Richard 



What kind of clearance did you have? 

As I understand, it was a "secret" clearance. 

Given to you by? 

The letter that was indicated in your files earlier. 

That talked about a ••facility_clearance. " Did you 

Ull^, 



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art605 



uNOASSIFIED 



605 



li ever receive a letter that indicated that you or Mr. Gomez 

I 

2 1 had a security clearance? 

3 A I don't wish to debate semantics with you about it. 
4 ; The Defense Investigative Agency told us that they were going 
5 
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to clear Mr. Gomez and myself. When we got that letter. 



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laoB) RfrOKTINO CO.. INC. 
507 C Sirttt N E 2 5 

Wuhiniton. D C 20002 
1 2021 M6-6M« 



that's what we assumed it^a-^I don't know what they mean by 
"facilities clearance," specifically. 

Q Did you, or Mr. Gomez, to your knowledge, ever fill 
out any forms associated with an application for a security 
clearance after you left the Government? 

A Yes, and we were fingerprinted, and interviewed by 
Defense Investigative Service investigators, and we got 
reports from associates that they had also been similarly 
interviewed by either DIS or FBI field investigators. 

Q Other than this letter that talks about a "facility 
clearance," neither you nor Mr. Gomez ever received notifica- 
tion that you had a "secret" clearance? 

A Again, we were told only that they were undertaking 
a clearance for the two of us, and when we got that letter, 
we assumed that meant our clearance had gone through. 

Q But nobody else at IBC, to your knowledge, has a 
security clearance? 

A That's correct. 

Q During the first seven months of your consultancy 
arrangement with David Fischer and Marty Artiano, which I 



David Fischer and Marty A 



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UNCUiSSIFIED 



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li believe you said earlier was the period during- which they 

2 performed services for which you paid them $480,000, was Mr. 

3 :' Artiano a full-time practicing attorney at the same time? 

4 ' A He was a practicing attorney at the same time. 
I 

5 ' Q Was he a partner in a law firm, to your knowledge? 

i 

6 ! A I believe his corporation was a partner in a law 

7 ]| firm, yes . •.-.•*' 

8 1 Q Did Mr. Fischer reside in Utah during that period 

9 i of time? 

10 j A Yes, during that period of time he resided in Utah 
11 i and in Washington. 

12 ] Q Was he employed by another entity in Utah during 
13 ji that period of time? 



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lULLU mroffTma CO.. mc. 
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Wuhiniton O C i0OO2 
(2021 i*ieM6 



A No. I don't believe so. 

Q Was he employed by anyone else, to your knowledge, 
during that period of time? 

A He is the commissioner for the boundaries of Canada 
and the United States, but that's a commission post and not 
an employee position. 

Q So it was your testimony that the $480,000 that you 
paid to Mr. Artiano and Mr. Fischer were for the services 
which they performed during the first seven months of this 
relationship, which I believe, according to your testimony, 
would have been December of 1985 to June of 1986, is that 
correct? 



UNCLASSIHED 



613 



art607 



UNCIASSIHEB 



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1 il A Correct. 

2;! Q Did they submit invoices, or vouchers, or any bills 

3 ,, of any kind to you for their services during that period of 



time? 



A No. 



Q Was there any written record of their performance 



7 .' on your behalf during that period of time? 



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A Well, as reflected in strategy documents for client 
letters, meetings, briefing memoranda, documents, that type 
of thing. There would be a record. 

Q Have you produced those documents? 
A Oh, sure. All of them. 

Q Did you pay any other consultants, in 1985 and 
1986, more than $25,0007 Other than you and Mr. Gomez? 
A In 1984 and 19 — 
Q 1985 and 1986. 

MR. PRECUP: Excuse me. Annual figures or combined 
for the period, Mr. Oliver? What are you asking the witness? 
MR. OLIVER* I'm asking for annual figures. 
Let me rephrase the question. 
THE WITNESS: Please. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Other than you and Mr. Gomez, did any employee at 
IBC make a salary more than $25,000 per year? 
A In '85 and '86?' Yes. 



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Q Who? 

A Steve Schwarz, Fran Jacobawitz. Again, you've got 
me embarrassing my employees. 

Q What was Fran Jacobawitz 's job at IBC? 

A Her title was director of marketing, and her 
specialty is writing research, distribution and mailing 
techniques . 

Q Does she also go by the name of Fran.,Jacobs? 

A Yes . She does . ' • 

Q Is she in any way related to the expenditure on 
your bank records to an entity known as Weir, Jacobs, in the 
amount of $5,000? 

A Yes. 

Q What was her relationship to that expenditure? 

A She's a partner in Weir, Jacobs, and it was a New 
York firm which she and her partner have now relocated to 
Washington. She left it while she worked for us, and has now 
since gone back to work for it. 

Q What was the $5,000 payment to Weir, Jacobs in 
October of 1985? 

A In October of 1985, it was for an examination 
undertaken by Weir, Jacobs of the SLPD distribution system, 
and recommended improvements in the system. 

Q When did she begin to work for you? 

A September of 1985, I thinTc; I'd ^ave to look at 

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the records, more specifically, but I think it's September. 

Q She was also still a partner in Weir, Jacobs at that 
time? 

A No, no. When she came to Washington, she was no 
longer a partner in Weir, Jacobs. I should clarify that. 
Let me rephrase that. I don't feel comfortable characteriz- 
ing her business relationship. She may have considered 
herself to still be a partner in Wei^,-. Jacobs. 

Q But she was an employee of IBC from September .of 
1985 until when? 

A Recently. She left in Hay or June of this past 
year. 

Q Did she work on the State Department contract? 

A Yes. She did. 

Q What did she do in the performance of that contract? 

A She handled general assignments. She was also 
responsible for the distribution section of the contract. 

Q Does she have a brother named Jake Jacobawltz? 

A She does . 

Q At the time when your contract began with the 
Department of State, was he an official of SLPD? 

A He was an employee of SLPD. I don't know, at that 
point, whether he was an official. 

Q Do you know whether or not he was involved in any 
way in the evaluatioa pf .the jaantMALJthat was made to the 



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nujii mtmawta co., inc. 
^0! C Street. SE 25 

Wuhiniton. O C :000! 
' 'nil )46.6<i66 



State Department by IBC? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q Was Fran Jacobs involved, in any way, in the 
presentation of the IBC proposal to SLPD? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q How did she happen to come to work for you? I guess 
the question should be, how did you happen to hire a New York 
firm — Weir, Jacobs--to do this work evaluating the State 
Department, distribution system? 

A Well, I have to correct you. we didn't hire Weir, 
Jacobs. We hired Fran Jacobawitz, and she chose to take 
payment to Weir, Jacobs. That's her own matter. That's a 
business decision on her part. I didn't make that. 

Q Was she living in New York at the time? 

A No. If she was domiciled in New York, she was 
certainly present in IBC most of the time. So I don't recall 
her being — 

Q I think you indicated — maybe I'm a little confused. 
I thought you indicated, a few moments ago, that the $5,000 
payment to Weir, Jacobs had been for services that they had 
performed for IBC related to evaluation of the State Depart- 
ment distribution system. Is that correct? 

A No. What I indicated to you a moment ago was that 
the $5,000 was paid to Fran Jacobawitz to complete an 
evaluation of SLPD's distribution and recommendations, and 

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>0' C Utm N E 25 

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she chose to have the payment made to Weir, Jacobs, and she 
could have chose it to be made to cash. That's her choice. 
It wasn't my choice. 

Q So Weir, Jacobs performed no ser^/ices for you. The 
services that were performed were performed by Fran Jacobs, or 
Jacobawitz, in a personal capacity? 

A In a professional capacity, and, as I understand 
it, that was the business of her firm, yes. But yes, in a 
professional capacity. 

Q How did you meet Fran Jacobawitz? 

A I think Frank introduced me to her. 

Q When? 

A I can't remember precisely when, but we were looking 
for someone to handle the contract. 

Q Had you known Jake Jacobawitz before you met Fran 
Jacobs? 

A No, and I don't think I met Jake for some time after 
Fran came to work with us . , 

Q Do you know whether Mr. Gomez knew Jake Jacobawitz 

before? 

I 

A I'm not sure. 

Q I'm going to try to run through, Mr. Miller, some 
notes that I made on some follow-up to Mr. Fryman's questions, 
and I'll try to be as quick as I can. 

MR. PRECUP: I do just want to reiterate, without 



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taking time to do it, that at 6:30 we're going to terminate. 



2 I Mr. Miller is very, very tired. So we can proceed. 



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507 C Siieti N E 2 5 

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MR. OLIVER: You indicate you wish to recess the — 
MR. PRECUP: No. I don't want to recess. I want to 
conclude . 

MR. OLIVER: Well, if we can do it by 6:30, that 
will be fine, but if we don't conclude, we'll either stay or 
we'll recess to another time. 
•BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q You indicated in response to one of Mr. Fryman's 
questions, that you thought Spitz Channell wanted to have 
.^ jgjmlc F^ell on his board. Did Spitz Channell have a board? 

A No, he never formed a board, but he discussed it 
with me, and several candidates were discussed to form a 
board of directors for his organization. 
Q For which organization? 

A For the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty . 

Q But it had — 

A Has a board of directors as a corporation. But he 
was talking about a board in the sense of those types of 
organizations. 

Q You indicated earlier in this deposition, that some 
of the figures that you discussed with Mr. Fryman might have 
been loan payments . 



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Did you have any loans from the National Bank of 
Washington? 

A I had, I believe, two loans from the National Bank 
of Washington. 

Q What was the purpose of those loans? 

A They were business loans. 

Q To IBC? 

A Yes. 

Q ,Was there collateral for those loans? 

A No . They were demand notes . 

Q Was there a co-signer or a guarantor on either one 
of those notes? 

A I don't recall there being a co-signer or a 
guarantor. 

Q Do you remember the amounts of those notes? 

\^ 
A I believe the first one was for\10,000, and I think 



the second one was for 



r\7500. 



but don't hold me to that. 



Q Did you also have a loan from Palmer National Bank? 

A No. 

Q You indicated earlier, that you had paid Bruce 
Cameron $10,000 in late January of 1986 in order to perform 
lobbying and consulting services for IBC, is that correct? 

A No. What I said was we paid Bruce to do a legisla- 
tive analysis of the prospects for aid to the freedom 
fighters on Capitol Hill, and to provide advice and counsel 



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)07 C Sir«i. N E 25 

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to Mr. Channell and us. And. to all the people involved in 
the Central American Freedom Program. 

Q Thereafter, you've indicated he was paid directly 
by Mr. Channell after that? 
A Yes. 

Q I think you said because that was the way that 
Spitz wanted it? 

A That's correct. 

YIR. OLIVER: I'd like to ask the reporter to mark 
this as Miller Exhibit 32. 

[The document referred to was 
marked as Miller Deposition 
Exhibit No. 32 for identifica- 
tion. ) 
MR. OLIVER: I'd like the record to indicate that 
this is a memorandum dated January 9, 1986. from Rich Miller 
and Frank Gomez to Spitz Channell, subject, "Freedom Program, 
be^^ing the identification number 2139, which I believe was 
produced by Mr. Miller's counsel. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q I'd like to ask you to examine that document, Mr. 
Miller, and ask you if you recall seeing it before? 
A I do. 

Q Did you draft this document? 
A I did. Well, one of us, Frank or J drafted it. 

• ■" • u... . 



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I've forgotten which. . 

Q Does this document refresh your recollection as to 
how Mr. Cameron came to be an employee of Mr. Channell's? 

A It doesn't need to. It's consistent with what I 
told you a moment ago, and from previous testimony. I 
believe the confidential source we're talking about is 
probably Pen/Kemble, and the general description is what I had 
indicated in previous testimony about his having been 
ostracized by his colleagues on the left. Ten thousand 
dollars. Although I think in that paragraph, we did not 
handle it exactly in that manner. I think he formed his own 
organization. 

Q Why did PeryKemble need to be referred to as a 
"confidential source" in this memorandum? 

A I can't tell you why. I mean, it doesn't have any 
particular significance. 

Q Is it possible that the confidential source was 
soipeone else? 

A I don't think so. 



Q Tou're sure that It was Pen/Kemble? 

A Because the subject matter is his dire need for a 
job, and I only remember discussing that with PerylCemble. 

Q Subsequent to this memorandum, did Spitz Channel 1 
give a grant to PRODEMCA for this purpose? 

A No. I don't believe so. What Channel 1 decided to 



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do was to have Mr. Cameron first produce a legislative 
analysis and he did, and then subsequently, Mr. Channell gave 



I didn't know that until about three or four months 



ago. 



)0: C Sirtit. N E 
VuAininii O C 10002 



3 ' money directly to an organization that Mr. Cameron headed up, 

4 I whose name escapes me right now. 

5 Q Was that CDEA, the initials CDEA? 

6 I A I believe--at least CDA is part of the acronym, but 
I] 

7 || I don't remember an "E" in it. But something like that. 

8 Q Did you know that that organization was previously 

9 ! headed up by Rob Owen? 

I 

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24 I 

<e. 
25 



Do you know how Bruce Cameron came to know Rob Owen? 
I don't. 

Did you have anything to do with Rob Owen turning 
over his organization to Bruce Cameron? 
A No. 

Q Did Colonel North know that you were recommending 
to _Spit2 Channell that Bruce Cameron be hired as a lobbyist? 
A I don't believe I told Colonel North. 
Q You indicated earlier in your testimony that you j 
remembered a $60,000 check from a Mr. Jeimes MacAleer, is that , 
correct? 

A I remember a $60,000 check and the entry in my 
checkbook is for MacAleer, in the check register is for 
MacAleer, and that's all I recall. But it was facilitated by 



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Wuhioftoa. D C 
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he told me that there was somebody who wanted to 



Colonel North. The money came in and went out immediately. 
But my recQllection of MacAleer is only from my check 
register. 

Q When you say it was facilitated by Colonel North, 
what do you mean? 

A 

give $60,000, asked me if we could put it into INSI. I 
agreed, told him that INSI would have no administrative 
overhead associated with it, and would pass it immediately 
back out, which we did. 

Q Did you ever- talk to Mr. MacAleer? 

A Notftthat I recall. 

Q How did you get the check? 

A I don't remember how I got it. 

Q Do you recall whether or not you endorsed the check? 

A I would have had to have for it to be deposited 
into INSI '3 accounts. 

MR. PRECUP: Excuse me. I don't believe we've 
established, for the record, whether it's a check or a wire 
transfer, or some other form of funds, so perhaps you — 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Did you receive a check in the amount of $60,000? 

A We received $60,000. I'm not clear, in memory, 
whether it was a check or a wire. 



What did you do with the $60,000? 



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A We put it into the account for INSI, and as soon as 
it was available we transferred it out, and I think, it was 
over the course of about three days. It stayed in the 
account for about three days . 

Q You earlier indicated that Colonel North had called 
you and asked you to contact Roy Godson, or told you that Roy 
Godson was going to contact you about a contribution in the 
amount of $100,000, is that correct? 

A fJo. He told me that I should contact Roy Godson 
about a contribution. I didn't learn the amount, I don't 
think, until I actually saw the — at least the letter from 
Heritage Foundation — and it may not even have been until I 
actually saw the check. 

Q You indicated that you were told by Mr. Godson that 
he had a contributor who wanted to contribute to the support 
of the democratic resistance in Nicaragua, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q When he told you that, what did you suggest that he 
do at that point? 

A My initial suggestion was that he provide it to Mr. 
Channell's organization. 

Q Why? 

A Because Mr. Channell was in the business of raising 
money, and it was natural for me to do it. 

Q I believe this took place some time in the fall of 

iiMPi Accincn 



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Vuhmfion C i0002 



1985, at least in that general time period according to the 
bank records, and the correspondence that we examined earlier. 

This was some t im BllWir iil 1 [j jLiill jM liil l iilil 

Spitz Channell and Dan Conrad that these contributions should 
be handled by IBC. So why would you not just:T;ei^a^m to 
give the contribution to IBC, and save the step, because I 
believe Channeii -ws takilt^ 3^ peg^J^j^r Sverhi^SiTcostall^^pr 
something li^ ths 
A 




first of allj^ n^an-' t^^^^§^^l^i^< 
20 percent assertion-.^ ^. Chaia«I3.gp^- tTiMBti 



"OXtXSr^. 





li.hH I ' hill 



like -the appropri^te-jthiii^ to 

Q a|Did RS t« 
money to Mr. Channell? 

A I only remember him vaguely indicating that it was 
a political matter. In other words, that Mr. Channell was 
not politically acceptable to whomever his donor was. 

Q Did you ever learn who his donor was? 
_ A To this day, I don't know who the ultimate donor 
was. I've always assumed it was the Heritage Foundation 
itself. 

Q Did you evier talk to Ed Feulner about this contribu- 
tion, prior to receiving a letter from the Heritage Founda- 
tion? 

A I don't specifically remember a conversation with 



Ed Feulner. 



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iMxiii KvoirnNa eo.. nc. 

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Q Is it your recollection that the first contact that 

2 il you had relating to this contribution, after your meeting 

3 I with Mr. Godson, was a letter form the Heritage Foundation 

4 I requesting a proposal for a grant? 
A That's my best recollection on it, yes. 
Q ili4^d you produce that letter for th»-Coinmittee? 
A The one written to Heritage Foundation? 
Q The one that was written to you from the Heritage 

Foundation. 

A Yes. I believe so. 

Q Let the record show that we have not received any 
such letter. 

A Well, let me put it another way. I've given you 
every record I have, so if you don't have it — 

Q Well, your recollection is that there was a letter, 
and after you received this letter from the Heritage Founda- 
tion, or you were contacted by the Heritage Foundation — it's 
possible it might have been a phone call--but you were 
contacted. What did you do at that point to facilitate this 
contribution, or this grant? 

Did you contact Roy Godson? 

A I'm sorry. You've lost me in the timeframe. 

Q Well, Colonel North called you, you met with Roy 
Godson. Colonel North called you, you met with Roy Godson, 



5 

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he said he had someone who wanted to contribute to the 

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democratic resistance in Nicaragua. You suggested Spitz 

2 ;l Channell.;^ H^said he didn't want to give the money to Spitz 

3 :i Channell, and the next thing you knew, you were contacted by 

4 I the Heritage Foundation? 

5' A No. I had a subsetfisnt CQnve>jgati^.-wS:h Colonel 
6j North and told him that we could accept it into INSI, but 

7 II that that was a significant risk for the organization and we 

!l 

8 Ij were going to take a 20 percent overhead charge from the 



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■tUCN KOOtmNQ CO.. INC. 
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grant. He agreed. 

I then went back to Mr. Godson, either by phone or 
in meeting--i can't remember which — and gave him the Institute 

Heritage BtMJjfe^i^n. 

Q All right. Why was it a significant risk for INSI? 

A Well, you only have to read recent news accounts of 
the demise of the Institute for North-South Issues to know why 
it was a significant risk. It was a fatal action by INSI, and 
we .felt that there was considerable risk to the organization 
and it should be compensated for it, and I believe we were 
correct. 

Q Why did you not take such compensation from the 
$60,000 contribution from Mr. MacAleer? 

A We did it solely as a favor to Colonel North, and 
we told him when we did it, that it was the last time that we 
would do it, and we didn't want to do any more such transfers 

iiKini toojncn 



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art622 



UNCLASSra 



622 



1 I through INSI. 

2 =j Q But you didn't take a cut out of that contribution? 

3 ; A That's correct. 

4 I Q The $20,000 that you took out of the contribution 

i 
5' that came through the Heritage Foundation, did that just go 

'I 

6 i to general overhead for INSI? 

7 I A Overhead and salaries, and some printing, and so 

8 1 forth. It doesn't sRfc^ong to eat up $20,000 in a 501(c)(>f. 

9 1 Q ^o you received a check in the amount of $ 100 » 000, 

j 

10 which I believe was reflected in an earlier document. 

11 j MR. PRECUP: It would be convenient to point out 

12 now, Mr. Oliver, that what you've Just examined was the copy 

13 ' of the Heritage Foundation letter from Mr. Feulner bearing 



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our identification number 53036. It was, indeed, produced in 
response to subpoenas, and there is the copy. 

MR. OLIVER: We've discussed this letter earlier, 
which is one that you had produced, and the letter says, 
"Thank you for your letter of September the 12th, 1985. " 

It says, "My colleagues and I have discussed your 
proposal in some detail and are pleased to respond in a jt: 
posi&4»Kan|^fiM3^. Therefore, I am enclosing a check from 
the Heritage Foundation in the amount of $100,000 as you 
requested in your letter. We would appreciate receiving 
reports from you as to the uses to which these funds have 
been put. I would also like to have a copy of your tax- 

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_ 1 ] exempt letter. It is our assumption, of course, that all of 

:i 

2 j these funds will be used in accordance with the stated 

3 ' purposes of your 501(c)(3) organization. Best wishes, Ed 

4 i| Feulner. " 
]i 

5 ij The letter was addressed to you. 

;i 

6 il BY MR. OLIVER: 

ii 

7 : Q Had you discussed that letter before Mr. Feulner 

8 ] sent it to you? 

9 i| A Discussed it with who? 

10 ii Q With Mr. Feulner. 

11 ! A Discussed that letter before Mr. Feulner sent it to 

'I 

12 :j me? 

13,1 Q Yes. 
14 I A 
Q 



I don't recall discussing it. 

But you had sent him a proposal on the 12th of 
September, is that correct? 

A That's consistent with what I remember, or we sent 
him some form QCiJbEfgE^?*! f"**^Mjlir :)^ proposal . 



gnot for assistance to the 
democratic resistance, was it? i 

A No. It was a more generic statement that had to do i 
with increasing information and news capacity of organizations^ 
in Central and Latin America. 

Q But you knew that wasn't what the money was really 
for, didn't you? 



UNCUSSIHED 



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4 No. I still contend, to this day, that that money 
was spent at that time, I felt, for activities by the 
political entities 



Q How did you know it was forj 

A Well, I knew Colonel North was both attempting to 




Q Did Mr. Godson — 

A I would also point out, in addition, that at that 
point. Lake Resources, to my way of thinking, was an account 
that Adolf o Calero was the beneficiary of, and his political 
organization was the beneficiary of. So it was general 
support for them, and one of the things we were trying to get 
them do more efficiently was provide information, and provide 
public-affairs education efforts here, in the United States, 
and overseas . 

Q So did the money from this grant go to Lake 
Resources? 

A Some of the money from this grant went to Lake 
Resources. That's correct. 



UNCUSSIHED 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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»- C SOKI. St. 

Vnluniraa. O C. 20002 



1 Q How much? 

2 A It's very difficult to give it a specific figure, 

3 ' but in the short period of time after that grant was depositee 

4 in IC, Inc., money was transferred to Lake Resources — I think 

5 v48,000 — and I think there was\ 60,000 that was transferred to 
6 J^^^^I^^^^H accounts subsequent to that^^^^^^^^| 

7 I MR. OLIVER: I'd like to ask the reporter to mark 

8 this as Miller Exhibit 33, and ask you to examine the 

9 document marked by the reporter. 

10 [The document referred to was 

11 I marked as Miller Deposition 

I 

12 I Exhibit No. 33 for identifica- 

13 tion.J 

14 BY MR. OLIVER: 

15 Q Is this the proposal that you sent to — I'm sorry, 

16 counsel. 

17 MR. PRECUP! Please, Mr. Oliver, continue. I'm 

18 socry. 

19 BY MR. OLIVER: 

20 Q Is this the proposal that you sent to Or. Feulner 

21 on September the 12th, 19857 

22 A That looks like the proposal I sent him, yes. 

2 3 Q The proposal is two pages long, and there are other 

24 attachments to it, some of which have already been entered as 

25 exhibits. It appears to me, in examining this proposal, Mr. 

IIMOI AOOinrn 



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art626 



W C Stmt. N E. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



626 




Miller, that this doesn't indicate that any money is going to 



Did you indicate to the Heritage Foundation, in 
discussing this proposal, that behind this proposal was an 
effort to help] 

A Well, your second word up here is, the optimum word 
in your question--you can read it in specific terms, if you 
want. I read it in very general terms. "The dissemination 
in Centred America of materials designed to educate th6 
public on the political and economic realities of the United 
States' policy objectives. " 



he political entities associated with the 
Nicaraguan resistance. "A program of public information on 
the Central American view o£ the United States' foreign and 
economic policy, and how it relates to the political and 
economic future of Central American countries . " That covers 
a vhole host of activities that were conducted over that two- 
year period with the political entities associated, including 
trips by them to Europe, to other Central American countries 
to speak to press; a conference in Europe which was widely 
covered in the press . 

"Collection and analysis of data in the first two 
phases will be completed prior to a conference." There never 



was a conference. 



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art627 

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Q Was there dissemination in Central America of 
materials designed to educate the public on the political and 
economic realities of United States' policy objectives that 
was paid for by the grant from the Heritage Foundation? 
A I am positive of that. 
Q Did you do it? 

A No. But I can assure you that Alfonso Robelo's 
organization ^^^^^^^^^ Adolf o Calero's organizationJ 

have all widely disseminated U.S. foreign-policy 
objectives to both the press, and to their fellow Central 
Americans, and to people in the general world. 

Q So why was it risky for you to take this grant? 
Why did this lead to the demise of INSI? 

A Because this area is Central America, and Latin 
America is very sensitive to this issue, and organizations 
that are directly associated with resistance, the democratic 
resistance, don't fare well with other organizations. 
Q This proposal doesn't indicate that there's 
anything related to the democratic resistance in this program 
any more than there is any indication that it relates to^^^| 

So why would it be risky to accept and 
perform this grant, for INSI7 

A I think I've already answered your question. 
Q Well, isn't it a fact, Mr. Miller, that you 
actually didn't perform this activity on behalf of the 




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Heritage Foundation grant? 

A He provided grants to people who performed these 
activities. 

Q Isn't the case, Mr. Miller, that when you received 
the $100,000 check, that you kept $20,000 for risk, or 
overhead, and sent $80,000 to the IC account in the Cayman 
Islands? 

A That is correct. 

Q ' Did Mr. North direct the payments from the Cayman 
Islands' account? 

A Yes . 

Q Did you know where all those payments were going? 

A Yes, eventually, all of them, those associated with 
this . Yes . 

Q Where did the $80,000 go? 

A Well, as I pointed out to you a moment ago, I 

believe $48,000 went to Lake Resources. I know $20,000 went 

to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B and to 




Q So you knew all of the entities into which the 
money was being directed by Colonel North, and you knew the 
purpose of those transfers? 

MR. PRECUP: I don't think that was the witness's 
testimony. 

THE WITNESS: At that point in time, we knew^^H 



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accounts were 



[accounts when we transferred 



them. We knew that Lake Resources was an account to benefit 
the organizations of Adolf o Calero. 

MR. PRECUP: Gentlemen, it is 6:30, and as you all 
know, Mr. Miller has been up since five this morning, and 
we've been at it here since nine. I would like very much to 
call it a day. 

MR. OLIVER: If you would like to recess this, when 
would you like to — 

MR. PRECUP: I'm not prepared to discuss that at 
this hour. I'm tired myself. 

MR. OLIVER: Well, I am not prepared to adjourn the 
deposition until we determine whether or not we can continue 
with it at a later time, Mr. Precup. 

MR. PRECUP: Well, I'm not — 

MR. OLIVER: There are still a lot of questions 
that certainly need to be asked. 

MR. PRECUP: I am certain there are. Please call 
me tomorrow, will you? 

MR. OLIVER: Are you leaving? 

MR. PRECUP: Yes, sir. As I said some hours ago, 
in fact we said this morning that we would go to 6:30. 

MR. OLIVER: We indicated that we wanted to 
complete this deposition, and it's not complete, Mr. Precup. 

Well, I s^^4k^;jfi¥ li JiHI^Wi^*iik^^^^°"^ ^° ^^ 



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ONCUSSIFIED 



630 



asked. 

MR. PRECUP: I'm certain that you do. How much 
more time do you want, Mr. Oliver? 

MR. OLIVER: Well, I don't know, Mr. Precup, 
because some of the answers are a little bit confusing. And 
in order to try to clarify the record, I'm trying, since we're 
seeking to complete this deposition, to clarify them complete- 
ly so that we won't have to have another session. 

MR. PRECUP: Well, I think the process is inherently 
interminable to treat it that way, Mr. Oliver. 

But my only position now is that my client is so 
tired that he is unable to respond directly to your questions 
because he has been at it since 9 o'clock this morning. He 
is in no condition to proceed. 

MR. OLIVER: I am perfectly willing to recess this 
deposition, and I would just like to ask you when you would 
be prepared to resume this deposition? 

MR. PRECUP: As I told you, I cannot give you an 

answer to that at this late hour with my client in the tired 

state he is in. I cannot even confer with him meaningfully 

I 
on that topic. 

MR. OLIVER: But it is your understanding that this 
deposition has not been completed and will have to be 
completed at a subsequent time? 

MR. PRECUP: I will not respond to that question. 

llilAi «,#iAirirPt 



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Will you give me some indication of how much more 
time you think you will need with this witness, and perhaps I 
can respond to you rationally. 

It is an open-ended invitation, where time after 
time we have been ~ I don't mean that this is directed at 
you, it's not, but the time has taken much more than it was 
ever anticipated with each question session. 

If you will give us a commitment to a time, we can 
talk. If -you will not, then — 

MR. OLIVER: Mr. Precup, I am not prepared, nor do 
I have the authority to adjourn this deposition until it has 
been completed. 



I e«n-^|^e'you~that I wUl «tempt*^o ^k 




itious 



quest^ni 
a mannc 

I indicated to you earlier today that if your 
client was tired, I would be happy to recess this deposition 
until tomorrow or until a later time. But it is our desire, 
as it is yours I believe, to complete this process as soon as 
possible. 

What concerns me is that you seem to be indicating 
that you are not willing to recess this deposition and set a 
time for it to be continued. 

MR. PRECUP: Well, you're free to draw conclusions. 



you will draw -- 



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MKXOI ROOOTMa CO.. IMC 
507 C Streti. N E 
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( 2021 W-GIM 



MR. OLIVER: I am perfectly willing to adjourn this 
deposition on the understanding that it has not been completed 
and will need to be completed at a subsequent time. 

MR. PRECUP: I understand what you have said, sir. 
I think you've understood what I am saying. 

I'm not sure who has the power to adjourn or to 
terminate these depositions, and it's something I don't care 
to look into. 

MR. FRYMAN: Can we go off the record? 

(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. OLIVER: This deposition is adjourned until 1 
o'clock tomorrow afternoon in Room SH-901 of the Hart 
Building, in order to complete the deposition of Mr. Richard 
Miller. 

[Whereupon, at 6:40 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition adjourned, to reconvene at 1:00 p.m., Wednesday, 
September 16, 1987.] 



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CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 
I. Ronald Meek , the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby testify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foreoing deposition 
was duly sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me stenographically and thereafter reduced to type- 
writing under my direction; that said deposition is a true 
record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action. 



^^J/ 



Notary Public in and for 
the District of Columbia 



My* conmission expires June 14, 1988. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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641 



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M7 C ScRR. N E 



SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE COVERT 

ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

U. S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

AND 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

Wednesday, September 16, 1987 I 
Washington, D. c. 

Continued Deposition of RICHARD RODERICK MILLER \ 

! 
taken on behalf of the Select Committee above cited, pursuant ■ 

to notice, commencing at 1:10 p.m., in Room 901 of the Hart 

Senate Office Building, before Ronald Meek, a notary public 

in and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 

i 
For the House Select Committee: | 

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ., Staff Counsel, Senate 

SPENCER OLIVER, ESQ., Associate Staff Counsel, House! 

VICTOR ZANGLER, ESQ., Associate Staff Counsel, House] 

KEN BUCK, ESQ., 

BERT HAMMOND, ESQ. 

HBMRT J. FL7NM, U. S. Senate Investigator 



UNCIASHD 



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MUM Rvomaia CO, nc 

M? C Sinn. N E. 
Wid>^|ma. D C 20002 
;c2i •M-y uu, 



For the deponent: 

RONALD G. PRECUP, ESQ., 
Nussbaum, Owen & Webster 
One Thomas Circle 
Washington, D. C. 20005 

CONTENTS 

Examination by counsel for 

House Select Committee 

RICHARD R. MILLER 

EXHIBITS 

MILLER DEPOSITION EXHIBIT NOS . 

34 
35 
36 
37 
38 & 38-A 



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PROCEEDINGS 

MR. OLIVER; Good afternoon, Mr. Miller, I hope you 
have gotten a little rest. 

This is a continuation of deposition that was 
recessed yesterday afternoon. When we recessed yesterday, we 
were talking about IBC contracts with the State Department. 

Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. OLIVER: When we recessed yesterday, we were 
talking about IBC contract with the Department of State, and 
there was some confusion over the nature of, or the status of 
those contracts, between the time of your initial proposal 
and the ultimate signing of the final contracts. And I just 
wanted to ask you to clarify what your understanding was of 
the status of that contract, between October the 1st, 1985 
and September of 1986, when the contract, the one that we 
have as an exhibit here — 

Off the record. 



MR. OLIVER! All right, back on the record. 



mkmi 



Whereupon, 

RICHARD MILLER 

having been previously duly 8%rom, was recalled as a witness 
and was examined, and testified further as follows: 

THE WITNESS: We were told by the Administrative 
Officer and the Program Officers that the contracts had been 



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forwarded through the Executive Secretary structure and 
Management Offices, and approved, and had gone on to the 
Contracts Office. I can't tell you that I for sure had seen 
a contract for that date with a Contract Officer's signature, 
or with a signature from, what they call M, their Management 
Office, but we vrere told that they had proceeded through both 
of those stages, on two separate occasions. 

CONTINUED EXAMINATION BY ASSOCIATE STAFF COUNSEL 

fOR THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Did you subsequently learn that there had been some 
problems with the Contracts Office? 

A We were told that when it left M, the Management 
Office, and went to Contracts, Contracts determined that it 
was not in the proper form, and needed to be written as a 
cost-plus fixed fee, and that would entail a DCAA audit, we 
then undertook in conjunction with the DCAA auditors. 
' Q What are they? 

I think they were State Dec^ctffQnt 

What is the DCAA? |||^ 

DCAA is the Defense Contracts Audit Agency. 

MR. OLIVERi I would like to enter as Miller 
Exhibits 33 — 34, and ask the reporter to mark them, a set of 
documents which contain correspondence from the Defense 
Investigative Service to the Department of State, and from 




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the Department of State to the Defense Investigative Service. I 

(The documents referred to were I 

marked for identification as | 

Miller Deposition Exhibit No. I 

34.) i 

BY MR. OLIVER! j 

Q I would like to ask the witness to look at those j 

documents. Have you ever seen those documents before, any of 

those documents? 

A Mot to my knowledge. 

MR. OLIVER: Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q As I was saying, these documents seem to reflect 
difficulties which the Defense Investigative Service was 
having in 1986 in finalizing a facility security clearance 
for IBC. Some of the documents indicate copies to 
International Business Communications, Miller Communications 
and Gomez International. I would like to ask the witness to 
look at them once again, to see if he recalls whether or not 



18th, 1986. 



he received copies of these documents, which were dated March 

UhLhvv. 3CU 

A That's not the question you asked me earlier. 
Q May 6, 1986; June 3rd, 1986; July 30th, 1986; 



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November 17th, 1986. My question was whether you recall ever I 
having seen any of these documents. j 

A And my answer was that I don't recall having seen ' 
them. ! 

Q Do you recall difficulties with the Defense I 

Investigative Service during the spring and summer of 1986? | 

A Yes, I recall two, in particular. i 

I 
Q What were those difficulties you recall? | 

A Well, they attempted to call Mr. Gomez, and he was I 

out of the country, and when he did not return their phone I 

call for about a week, they notified the offices that he was 

not in compliance with their attempts to get in touch with 

him, and they broke off the investigation. 

In another instance they demanded of us a partner- j 

ship agreement, and any first year law school student in the { 

District of Columbia knows that you don't have to have a 

partnership agrettownt to be a partnership in the District of 

CoivuBbia. And they insisted that we were not a formal 

partnership under the District of Columbia laws, and therefore 

couldn't be a partnership, and they refused the investigation 

again. It was only after the direct intervention of our 

attorneys with their legal counsel that we were able to make 

them understand that that was the law, and they subsequently 

went forward, after having broken off the investigation at 

least twice. The first tijM I Ut4iUt ^A<SA4ft(> of ^he phone 



miSfilt^fnilY 



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contact, and the second time because the documents that we ! 

couldn't provide were documents that didn't exist, and 

weren't legally required to exist. 

For something more technical than that, you will 

have to talk to our CPA and attorney. 

Q Do you remember being notified that you had been 

granted an interim secret security clearance? 
A I do. 

Q Do you recall what date that was, approximately? j 
A I believe it was July. j 

Q Before we go on, I would like to indicate that we 

would like to finish this deposition in as short a period of 

time as possible, and it is my intention to limit my questions i 

to an hour, certainly no more two, and I hope that we can | 

I 

finish this deposition by 4:30 at the latest, so we will try | 
to proceed as expeditiously as we can. j 

MR. PRBCUPi Thank you. I appreciate that, Mr. i 

i 
Oliver. i 

B7 MR. OLIVBRi 

Q Mr. Miller, I have some follow up questions to some 

of the questions that were asked by Mr. Frynan yesterday, so 

if it seems like I am skipping around it is because I have 

gone through the notes at^7S4ifVV f^.fl?Sf ^^.^S^^'^^''^'" 

deposition. 

You had indicated that you fomed a company called 




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RAM, I believe, in 1980, is that correct? 

A In 1980, that's correct, yes. 

Q Did that company have any relationship with the 
Robert Goodman Agency? 

A No. 

Q We were discussing the IC, or INTEL Corporation 
account in Cayman Islands earlier, I believe you indicated 
that the normal procedure for the disbursement of funds from 
that account would be for Oliver North to direct you to 
transfer money to a bank account, and/or an entity. Did he 
tell you what the purpose of those disbursements were? 

A In some instances . 

Q In some instances he did not? 

A That's correct. 

Q But you transferred the money as he directed, 
whether you knew what the entity was it was being transferred 
to or not? 

" A That ' 8 correct . 

- Q So he could have transferred that money for the 
purpose of which you had no knowledge? 

A That's correct. 

Q I believe you also indicated earlier that you did a 
study at the request of Hr. Chennall of organizations in the 
United States, organizations and Individuals in the United 
States, who were supporting the Sandlnlsta reolne. Is that 



rtmg the Sandlnlsta reol 



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UNCLASSra 



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correct? 

A I reported to you that I did a White Paper for Mr. 
Channell, a draft of a White Paper for Mr. Channell, and it 
was on organizations who vrere supporting left wing radical 
governments or organizations, yes. 

Q It was not related directly to the Sandinista 
regime in Nicaragua? 

A It's a general discussion of leftist groups and 
their involvement with radical governments and organizations . 
It involves the Nicaraguan Government, but it also involves 
groups in El Salvador, and foreign Communist Party organiza- 
tions . 

Q When did you do that White Paper? 

A It was transmitted to Mr. Channell on April 12th. 

Q Of this year? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you know for what purpose he wanted you to 
produce that document? 
~ A Yes . 

Q What was that purpose? 

A He had spoken to several of his contributors about 
the need to continue and fortify his efforts at public 
education of the Communist threat to the United States . He 
relied in those appeals on « book called The Directory of 
International — I have forgotten the exact^t^tle of it, but it 

, , ^ < . -f /% m rirn 



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is a fairly lengthy document, about three inches thick, 
published by Common Cause, and he wanted something more in 
depth, and asked us to undertake it. His objective was to be 
able to show it to contributors , as evidence to them that 
they needed to redouble their efforts to educate the public. 

Q Do you know whether he ever used the document for 
that purpose? 

A I don't know, X turned over the three original 
copies to him, and I have not heard since, what he did with 
them. 

Q Tou didn't maintain a copy at IBC? 

A I maintained a copy of the principal body of the 
report, I did not maintain a copy of the appendices, which 
are about six inches worth of materials. 

Q Has that, the document you maintained, produced for 
this Committee, in the documents that your counsel turned 
over to this CooBittee, in April or May? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q Why not? 

A I am not sure it was called for under the subpoenas 

Q But the White Paper was paid for by Spitz Channell? 

A That's correct. 

Q Mr. Miller, who is Curt Windsor? 

A He is a former Ambassador to Coi 



about all I know about him, actually 



]mmm 



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Q Did you ever meet Mr. Windsor? I 

A Yes, I met Mr. Windsor. 

Q When did you first meet him? i 

A I met him once only, and that was at the offices of i 
former Congressman Kuykendall, and it was a meeting to ! 
discuss the prospects for renewed assistance to the NicaraguanI 
Freedom Fighters . 

Q Did he ever make a contribution to INSI, or IC? 

A I don't believe he made a contribution to IC, I i 
don't recall getting a contribution to INSI. 

Q Do you ever recall receiving a check from Mr. 
Windsor, for any purpose related to IC or IBC or INSI? 

A We helped secure a grant for Woodie Jenkins' 
organization through the Donor Foundation, which Mr. Windsor i 
is a member of the Board of Directors of, but I can't recall | 
anything beyond that. 

Q Tou indicated earlier that there were two films j 
that you participated in the production of. I think you j 
referred to one as the Wesley Smith film, and then there was | 
another one that I believe was produced by Tony Zumbado, or j 
directed by Tony Zumbado. Were there in fact two films? 

A There were actually three films, and you have got I 

the author and Production Directors transposed. There was a | 

i 
film produced by Dr. Joachim Maitre, and directed by Larry | 

Young, which was 8ub8equei<|^|f||r<|^^^|^i|^^ted down to | 



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a shorter version by Robert Goodman and his production staff. 
And then there was a second film, which was titled 
"Bitter Legacy,' which was produced by Wesley Smith and Kemp 
Enterprises. And the camera crew that shot it were employees 
of Tony Zumbado. 

Q And what was the third film? 

A I just described all three of them. 

Q The shortened version of the first? 

A Oh, the shortened version of the first, we dis- 
tributed all three of them, the long version, the short 
version, and Wesley Smith's film. 

Q What was the source of funds that was employed in 
making these films, who paid for than? 

A NEPL. 

Q All three films? 

A All three films. 

Q Who is Joachim Maitre? 

A Joachim Maitre is the, I think now. Dean of the 
School of International Studies at Boston University, or 
maybe International Relations. 

Q When did you first meet hia? 

A I met hia when hi»gwiw#nneaoA tb9 Ji^ll .and Caribbean 
scholars. 

Q what was he doing as a Gulf and Caribbean scholar? 

A He %fent to Central America, along with Elie wiezel. 



liimsiim 



653 



I. NL 
DC 1«00> 



UNCLASSIREO 



646 



for an exploration the Mosquito Indian problem, which 
produced Mr. Hlezel's well publicized article In the LA Times 
News Syndicate and Le Matin, and subsequently with the French 
Government. He also took a separate trip with Max Singer to 
El Salvador and Honduras and Costa Rica. I believe they went 
to Costa Rica, I am not sure of that. 

Q Who Is Christina Guillen? 

A Christina Guillen? It doesn't strike a familiar 
note, I am sorry. 

Q Was there somebody named Christina who worked for 
IBC? 

A There was a — there may have been. The name, you 
can show me the name, maybe I can remember It more fully. 

Q You Indicated yesterday that there was a need. 
Colonel North thought that there was a need for insulation 
between Spitz and the Resistance, and this was why IBC was 
sort of brought in for the purpose of transferring the money 
to the Resistance, is that correct? 

A I don't think I said that yesterday, but I have 
said that in the past. 

Q Do you know why he wanted insulation between Spitz 
and the Resistance? MIv 



A He did not want the Resistance ouggTnT^ people who 



\mb 




were providing money, for new money. And that happened to be 
a feeling shared by Mr. Channell. He also had been recently 



654 



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involved with the Nicaraguan community, and he understood the 
needs were very great, and if they were used to him as a 
donor, that they would come back to him repeatedly, and be 
soliciting his people directly, and he didn't want that. 

Q Well, weren't the Resistance leaders aware that 
Spitz Channell was raising money on their behalf? 

A Generally, but I can tell you for a fact that they 
didn't know the proportion, until I informed then of it, very 
late in 1986. 

Q Did Colonel North ever indicate to you, after, or 
approximately at the time of the Nicaraguan refugee fund 
dinner, in 1985, that Eddie Frazer had indicated to him that 
there were some big contributors who would be willing to give 
large contributions to the Resistance, if they could meet 
with the President of the Onited States? 

A No, he never told me that. 

Q Did he ever indicate to you that Spitz Channell, 
that he knew of Spitz Channell, and Spitz Channell 's desire 
to raise money for the Resistance, prior to the phona call 
that you received from John Roberts? 

A No. 

Q Did you discuss with him the phona call that you 
had received from John Roberts aibout Spitz. Cbanoejl^ after 
you had met with Hr. Channell and Mr. Coi 

A I may have, but it was a political matter, and I 




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UNCLASSIFIED 



648 



didn't discuss it with hin, I don't think. 

Q Do you remember whether he indicated that he knew 
of Spitz Channel! or Dan Conrad, at that time? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Do you know Ken de Graffenreid? 

A No, I don't think so. Is that his only name? 

Q As far as I know. 
( Laughter . ) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q You indicated, in response to a question earlier in 
this deposition by Mr. Kaplan, that you did a variety of 
services for NEPL and Spitz Channell's organization, and 
among that list you indicated that you had been engaged in 
lobbying on his behalf. What kind of lobbying did you engage 
in on behalf of Mr. Channell? 

A We hired, or attempted to hire, in some instances, 
or sought the counsel of paid lobbyists, and I think, if I am 
recalling the passage that you are referring to, it was a 
general recitation of our responsibilities under the NEPL 
Central Anerican Freedom Program, and other programs, some of 
them being far more prone to lobbying activities than the 
Central Anerican Freedom Program was. 

Q But IBC itself did not directly engage in any 
lobbying, is that correct? - 

A That's correct. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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Q You indicated that Colonel North had told you to 
get in touch with Robert Kagen at the State Department, 
regarding arrangements for setting up the UNO Office in 
Washington, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Do you remember when that was? 

A Sometime in 1986, but it would have had to have 
been slightly prior to the first rent payment to that 
landlord, and I don't have the records in front of me, so I 
can't give you the exact date. 

Q Was that the first time you had met Mr. Kagen? 

A No, I don't think so, I think I met him before 
that. 

Q Was he the Coordinator of LPD at that tine? 

A I don't know whether he actually had that formal 
title at that time, but I think he was serving in that role. 

Q So during that tine he was also responsible for the 
oversight of the contract with IBC? 

~ A That's correct. Well, I should say again that I 
don't know whether the tin* lines overlap, if he was, and I 
guess he was. 

Q Did he know what the source of the money for the 



UNCLASSIFIEO 



UNO Office was going to be? 
A No. 
Q But he knew that your role was to provide funds for 



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that purpose? | 

A And direction to the UNO staff, in setting up the i 
office. I 

Q Did Mr. Kagen participate in the direction of the 
UNO Office, through you? 

A I think Mr. Kagen was an informal counselor to the i 
UNO Executive Director in the process. i 

Q Did he ever learn, to your knowledge, that the j 
money for the UNO Office came from funds that had been raised ; 
by Spitz Channell? , 

A I can't answer your question, I have no idea. 

Q But to your knowledge, he did not know where the 
money came from? 

A To my knowledge, no. ' \ 

Q He discussed earlier the contributions that were j 
made by IBC and IC to the Latin American Strategic Studies j 
Institute, which was Father Oowling. Other than transferring | 
the money at Colonel North's direction to LASSI, did you have j 
any "Other dealings with Father Dowling? | 

A Yes. 

Q What were they? 

A We talked regularly on the telephone. We met on 
occasion, we tried to keep each other informed of activities 
within the Nicaraguan community, and we provided materials to 
each other, and he provided a proposal for this resource book 



yNCLASSIFIEB 



658 



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which I produced to the Committee, a subsequent copy of it 
when it was produced. 

Q Were you aware that he was not a regular Catholic 
Priest? 

A I can't answer that question, because I am not 
Catholic, and I am totally unschooled as to what a regular 
Catholic is. 

Q Did you think that he was a Catholic Priest? 

A I still do. 

Q Did you have any knowledge, or any participation in 
the arrangements which were made for Father Dowling to appear 
and testify before a Congressional hearing? 

A I don't recall having any involvement in that, no. 

Q Did you know about it? 

A Only when I read about it in the paper. If I knew 
about it before, I had forgotten about it. 

Q Tou indicated that one of the reasons that World 
Affairs Counsellors, Inc. was set up was to do more with 
political movements in international foundations, is that 
correct? 

A I don't recall saying that exactly. 

Q Has its purpose to do more with international 
foundations in political movements? 

A It was designed to do more bu8iiie88~InternatIonaIIy 
for IBC, but beyond that, I speak in generalities, but that 




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about covers it. 

Q Did Colonel North ever discuss with you the 
establishment of an international foundation? 

A No. 

Q Did he ever discuss with you, or you with him, 
asking Roy Godson to provide advice to Spitz Channell on how 
to set up an international foundation? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q Did Spitz Channell ask you, or anyone else at IBC, 
to obtain information about how to set up an international 
foundation, or establishing an international foundation? 

A Not that I recall. 

Q What was your business relationship with Dan 
Kuykendall, between December of 1986 and June of 1987? 

MR. PRECUPs I am sorry, could I have the dates 
again, I missed them? 

MR. OLIVER: December of 1986 and June of 1987. 
THE WITNESS: Aside from mutual, each of us owning 
stock in the same corporation, we had no business dealings. 
We had no business relationship, I don't understand your 
question, I guess. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q You did not receive funds from him, he did not 
receive funds from you? 

A In that period — 



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Q That were obtained by the Gulf and Caribbean 
Foundation, or -- 

A Not in that period, no. 

Q Were both of you retained by Spitz Channel 1 in that 
period? 

A I know I was, I don't know whether Dan was. 

Q So you didn't work with Oan Kuykendall on any 
projects that related to Spitz Channell's activities? 

A Yes, we did have meetings with Oan Kuykendall, but 
whether he was paid for those meetings, I am not sure. 

Q What was the purpose of those meetings? 

A General strategy discussions. 

Q Strategy for what? 

A For Mr. Channell's organizations, political 
strategies, political realities in Washington, Congress, the 
Administration . 

Q Did they relate to this investigation? 

A Mo, I have never given him advice in regards to 
this investigation. 

Q Oo you know whether Mr. Kuykendall gave him any 
advice related to this investigati 

A I don't know. 

Q Were you ever aware of a period of time in which 
Oliver North, or someone on Oliver North's behalf, was 
supposed to raise $400,000 during a specific period of time. 



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for the resistance in Nicaragua? 

A I guess I will say I don't know, I don't understand 
the question. 

Q You never hear Ollie, the term "Ollie's 400 K" 
referred to, in any of your discussions with Spitz Channell? 

A That doesn't strike a familiar note. 

Q You indicated in your testimony earlier that there 
was, and I am quoting from the transcript, "there was some 
word in the diplomatic community there was going to be some 
kind of a public relations effort for one of the other 
resistance movements, and I think it was Afghanistan." Where 
did you hear that? 

A I don't remember, specifically where I heard it. 

Q But you went and talked to Oliver North about it? 

A Yes . 

Q And what did he tell, you? 

A He said he didn't know anything about it. We 
didn't have a very long conversation that day, any way. 

Q That was the day that he indicated to you that he 
was going to show you how a covert operation was set up, and 
then he got a phone call? 

A That is correct. 

Q You indicated earlier in your deposition, at some 
point, that you were in Oliver North's office when he was 
discussing on the phone with someone, whose identity you did 



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not learn, that some money was needed for the two fliers that 
had been killed in then Hausenfauss crash in Nicaragua. Do 
you recall that conversation? 

A Yes. 

Q And you volunteered to Colonel North that you could 
provide, that the funds were available, and that you could 
provide them, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q bid you cause a phone call to be made to Mr. 
William Walker at his home regarding the transfer of those 
funds? 

A I don't believe so. Colonel North may have made 
such a phone call, but I don't recall my causing it to 
happen . 

Q How did you find out what State Department account 
to send the money to 

A Colonel North took it down, in my presence, and 
gave me the information. It wasn't an account, either, it 
was- just a bank. 

Q Do you know how Mr. Walker was notified that the 
money was coming? 

A No. 

Q Do you know whether or not he _waa_ notified? 

A No . J . , 



ASSIFIED 



When you *rent to Europe with Al Masoudi in 1985, 



663 



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1 I did you have any involvement in the attempt to secure him a 

2 I passport, through the American Embassy in Bern? 

3 A Not that I am aware of. 

4 li Q Did you know that he was attempting to secure a 

5 I passport through our Embassy in Bern? 

6 ! A A U. S. passport? 

7 . Q Yes. 

8 A No, I am not aware of him trying to secure a U. S. 

9 j passport. 

10 il Q Any passport? 

i! 

11 Ij A I don't recall him trying to secure a passport 

12 il through the Embassy in Bern. 

13 'I Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Dwyer, whom I 

14 1| believe you indicated was traveling with you, attempted to 

15 {| secure a passport for him through the American Embassy in 

16 l| Bern? 

17 |l A Mr. Dwyer arrived in Geneva after I had left. And 

18 II I don't recall Mr. Dwyer telling me about an effort to secure 



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a passport at the Embassy in Bern. 

Q I believe you indicate earlier that you were I 
working out of Oliver North's office, at the direction of | 
Jonathan Miller, is that correct? 

A There was about two day's worth of activities, some I 
of which we carried out at«fi^JM|n N|i#tkA|<|0|f9f> at Jonathan 
Miller's direction. Ivlyj 




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Q What did that vrork involve? 

A Securing media appearances for the three leaders of 
the Nicaraguan opposition, on the occasion of their coming to 
Washington to meet with the President. 

Q This was part of your duties as a contractor with 
the State Department? 

A Well, I don't think we billed the State Department 
for that time, nor did we report it as a State Department 
activity. I don't think we considered it, even though I 
guess we could have, but don't think we considered it 
appropriate State Department activity. 

Q Was Jonathan Miller an official of the State 
Department at that tine? 

A Yes, I believe ha still held the post, he was 
Deputy Director of that office. 

Q He was the technical representative responsible for 
oversight of the IBC contract with the State Department? 

A That Is correct. 

Q During that period of time? 

A That is correct. 

Q I vrould like the reporter to mark as Miller Exhibit 
Number 35 a group of docuiDents which a Department of State 
Foreign Service Institute authorization for student training, 
dated September the 10th, 1984, and an inv\ 



for that training order and some excerpts K^^lffPPfrl^ 




:;l^j 




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General's report, issued earlier this year, which refer to 
that contract. 

(The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
35.) 
MR. OLIVER: I would like for the witness to look 
at that document and tell me if he has ever seen it before. 
*rHE WITNESS: I have seen both documents before. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Did IBC perform the services that were to be 
provided in this contract 

A It is our contention, and this is still under 
dispute with the Inspector General, that we performed the 
majority of these services, and we were only unable to 
perform the final portion of this, contract because of 
circumstances in El Salvador. 

Q Did you execute a series of mini seminars? 
- A Mr. Gomez is a better person to answer these 
questions, since he had responsibility for it, but I do 
recall him going to El Salvador with Ambassador Catto. And I 
do recall hio going on his own, and I do recall us securing a 
large number of reference documents, and preparing Spanish 
language recommendations for the Government spokesmen and 
their personnel. And that's the basic recollection. And, 



666 



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of course, the Government spokesman was gunned down on the 
tennis court, and this matter was held. The contract was 
never finished because of that, the activities described were 
never finished. 

Q Were you aware that Ambassador Catto told the 
Inspector General that he did not go to El Salvador during 
that period of time? 

A No, I am not aware of that. 

Q Do you know whether or not Ambassador Catto did go 
to El Salvador during that period of time, in performance of 
this contract? 

A I am not sure, to be honest with you. As I 
indicated earlier, I remember those things, I remember Frank 
going to El Salvador, and I remember the materials being 
prepared. And I remember the spokesman being shot. 

Q If you will look at page, it really is page 4 of 
this compilation, although it is not numbered. 

MR. PRECUPi One of the contract pages, Mr. Oliver? 
MR. OLIVER t Yes. 

MR. PRECUPi There is no number at the top. How do 
we identify it? 

THE WITNESS t It's different from yours. 
MR. OLIVER! It is. It is the page which begins, 
in the typewritten text,^"_Le£tj^BfBUU'i*Minain the full two 
weeks . ' 




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MR. PRECUP: We have such a page. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q It indicates in there that, in the last paragraph, 
that it is understood that a seminar will be conducted in a 
climate of potential guerrilla and terrorist attacks in urban 
areas, and the nearby countryside. 

Did anyone in the State Department raise a question 
about whether or not it was they should be contracting for 
seminars ^o be held in an area that had been identified as 
dangerous? 

A I don't know. 

Q Who negotiated this contract with the State 
Department? 

A I believe Mr. Gomez did. 

Q You did not participate in the negotiations of this 
contract? 

A I don't recall what my exact participation was, I 
am sure I had some, but I don't — 

Q Old you sign it? 

A I think I have given you the substance of my 
recollection. 

Q Did you sign the contract? I must say that the 
signatures apparently are missing, or have been cut off. 
MR. PRECUP t I think that is 
MR. OLIVERi Purchase order. 



mSIFIEB 



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MR. PRECUP: — which may not contain the contracted 
parties signature. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q It indicates, on the top of the first page of the 
requisition, which is identified as page 1 of 4, that this-- 
Mr. Richard Miller's name appears, and his phone number 
appears there, as attention and phone related to this 
purchase order. And I don't believe that Mr. Gomez's name 
appears anywhere in this document. 

But you don't remember negotiating the contract, 
and your belief and recollection is that Mr. Gomez was 
involved, is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Has the Foreign Service Institute requested that 
you repay the amount of funds that you received for this 
purchase order, on the grounds that these services were not 
performed? 

J^ He have not received such a request. 

Q Oo you know whether or not such a request has been 
made? 

A I have no idea. 

MR. OLIVER! I would like to have the next document 
marked as Miller Exhibit Number 36. and ask the reporter to 
mark it and show it to the witness. 

(The document referred to was 



^.iN^-lA^SFlE3 



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marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
36.) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q This is the text of a memorandum from Mary Norman— 
from Frank Gardner to Mary, Mary Norroan, an intern at the 
State Department, a memorandum relating to the contract that 
IBC had with the State Department in fiscal year 1985. And 
it indicates the need for — or a request for an emergency 
payment of $12,858 to International Business Communications, 
in response to its bill dated 4-11-85. 

Do you remember requesting an emergency payment in 
April of 1985 for IBC. 

MR. PRECUP! Before the witness answers, Mr. 
Oliver, I note the somewhat unusual formulation of this 
document, it says "Text of Memorandum" and it appears from 
that to me that may perhaps be a transcription, and not the 
meaorandum itself. 

MR. OLIVER: That is correct. It is a transcrip- 
tion, because we were unable to obtain clearance for the full 
document at that time. But I aver that this is a correct and 
accurate reconstruction of the text of the BMBorandum. 

MR. PRECUP: Well, your question was not to the 

-^ liNGlASSIFIED 

MR. OLIVER: My question is not to the nMaorandum, 



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because I am sure that Hr. Miller has probably never seen j 
this memorandum before, but I wanted to show him the document i 
from which I was going to ask the question, so that he would i 
understand why I am asking this question. I 

BY MR. OLIVER: i 

Q And my question is, do you remember requesting an I 
emergency payment in April of 1985? i 

A I don't think I have ever requested an emergency ! 
payment . I 

Q Do you remember asking Colonel North to intervene j 
with the State Department on your behalf in the spring of 
1985? 

A I remember complaining to Colonel North that we 
were continually paid much past the completion of our 
assignments, and never at the outset, as agreed in the 
contracts, and he indicated that he would see what he could 
do. 

Q Did he ever report to you that he had done anything 
on your behalf, in that regard? 

A I don't remember hin reporting that to me. 

I would point out that the bill date is probably 11 
days after the completion of a three month purchase order. 
Actually, and that is a payment under the State 
Department contract of 90 some thousand dollars. And I think 
it was already late. 



some thousand dollars . 



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MR. OLIVER: Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. OLIVER: I have one further — one or two further 
questions relating to a question I asked you earlier, if I 
can find the document that I had referred to, so I will 
attempt to find that document, and turn the aeposition over 
to Mr. FljBKi »nd-Kr . ^HBSS^^^SS^ 

MR. FLYNN: I would like to call your attention, 
please, Mr. Miller, to Exhibit 29, page 10 of that exhibit, i 
and the section that deals with the Calero progress text, and ■ 
also within that paragraph there is just a notation of I 
Calero, $20,000. 

Disregarding the $20,000, is it fair to say that 
you received approximately $19,000 from Adolf o Calero? 

THE WITNESS: I believe that is correct. \ 

MR. FLYNN: And does that include the $10,00 he 1 
reimbursed you for the money you expended have the wounded i 
young girl transferred to the United States? I 

THE WITNESS: I believe that is correct, also. | 

MR. FLTNNt Did Oliver North give you any traveler 's| 

checks, at all? I 

I 
THE NITNBSS: I don't recall receiving traveler's I 

checks from Colonel North, and as a I have testified earlier, | 

I was in a hotel room once when there was an exchange of a I 



large amov 



, of which I was the 



672 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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■uai iwponTiiia co.. ne. 

M7Cia<n. NE. 25 | 

. C 10002 I 



_ 1 beneficiary of some of them, but I don't recall receiving 

2 traveler's checks from Colonel North. 

3 MR. FLYNN: Who else was there when the traveler's 

4 checks were transferred? 

5 THE WITNESS: Adolfo Calero, Oliver North and 

6 myself. 

7 MR. FLYNN: Was it at this time that Calero gave 

8 any checks to North, do you recall? 

9 THE WITNESS: Yea. Well, I am not sure who gave 

10 whom to whom, but I know there was an exchange of a large 

11 number of traveler's checks, and I remember I received some, 

12 as well. 

13 1 MR. FLYinii From Calero? 

14 THE WITNESS: From whomever was disbursing them, 

15 but I think it was Calero giving Oliver North traveler's 

16 checks, but I am not positive of that. 

17 ; MR. FLYNN I And you said you don't recall whether 

18 11 North had given you any checks at that time, or any other 

19 ; tin«8? 

20 : THE WITNESS: I don't recall getting traveler's 

21 I checks from Colonel North. 

22 11 MR. FLYNN I ThanJ% re*»*A ^jv^ no further questions, 

23 i Mr. Miller. 

24 II MR. OLIVER: I %rouid like to ask the reporter to 
mark Miller Exhibit Number 37, an invoice related to the 



l^HMffO 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



666 



final payment of IBC's last contract with the State Depart- 
ment, it is invoice number DOS 1-85A, contract number 1000 l- 
602066, and ask Mr. Miller to examine that document, and tell 
me whether or not he has seen it before. 

(The document referred to was 
marked for identification as 
Miller Deposition Exhibit No. 
37.) 
THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 
BY MR. OLIVER! 
Q Did you prepare that document? 

A I signed it. It was prepared by a large number of 
people . 

Q If you will look at the next to last page of that | 
group of documents, or the third from the last page, sorry, i 
there is a form from your company with an employee name | 
there, could you tell me what that name is? | 

A This is Christina, I am really going to insult her, | 
because I can't remember her last name. Its is G-U-L-L-E-I, 
or Y. 

Q What did she do for IBC? 

A She did primarily the data entry for the computer 
distribution list, and %rorked on the distribution of publica- 
tions, and other duties as assigned. 

Q Did she work in your offices? 



UNCLASSinED 



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A Yes . 

Q Did she also vrork in offices at the Department of 
State? 

A All the employees that worked on the distribution 
contract spent a large number of hours over at the State 
Department . 

Q Do you know whether or not she knew Colonel North? 
A I don't believe so. 

MR. OLIVER* Thank you, Mr. Miller, I have no 
further questions. 

THE WITNESS i Thank you. 

MR. OLIVER! Mr. Buck? 

MR. BUCK! Mr. Miller, I just have a few— 

MR. PRECUPs I am sorry, Mr. Buck, please go ahead. 

MR. BUCKS Mr. Miller, I just have a few questions. 

Yesterday you mentioned a group in the military 
from the Sandinista Government that dressed like the Freedom 
Fighters were dressed, and then committed certain acts, and 
had those acts publicized. 

I was wondering whether you could expand a little 
bit on your knowledge of those events? 

THE WITNESS i There was a re( 
Central defectors, and I can't remember whether it was 

lor whether it wae one of the others, but that the 
State Security apparatus employed r group of individuals who 




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would dress as Contras, and go out and commit atrocities. 
Then State Security would seek to publicize them. 

Also, Wesley Smith picked up in his investigations 
similar allegations by refugees, and the much publicized 
Newsweek series of photographs of an execution, where 
pictures of men carrying M-16's, which the Freedom Fighters 
don't carry, wearing clean blue workshirts, which are kind of 
hard to have after you have been out in the jungle for six to 
eight weeks, it is a little tough to have them cleaned and 
pressed. And they were wearing the wrong kind of boots, and 
from that the leaders of the Resistance had supposed that 
that series was actually photographs of one of those units. 

There have also been confirmed reports of people 
entering the ranJcs of the Freedom Fighters, as a purposeful 
infiltration by the State Security forces, and these in- 
filtrators arc sometimes guilty of these activities. 

MR. BUCKi You mentioned that the State attempts to 
publicize these activities, where are these activities 

liNCLASSiflE!) 

THE WITNESS! Well, primarily through the CP— or 
the Sandinista Consaittee for the Protection of Human Rights, 
and I an not sure I have the title exactly right, there was — 
there is the CPOH. which is the Committee for the Protection 
of Human Rights, which was the Committee that publicized the 
Somcsa atrocities, and the one that Senator Kennedy and 



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Others here on the Hill used to help bring down Somosa. And | 
when that Governnent began to publicize the atrocities by the { 
Sandinista Government, they decided to open their own opera- \ 
tion, they did. Some of the principal leaders of that I 
organization have since defected to the United States, 



And what the Sandinistas did was, through these 
trumped up instances, or through actual fabrication by the 
State Security forces, produced reports that were critical of 
the Contras, and accused them of atrocities. This was 
reported largely by America's Hatch, and by the Washington 
Office on Latin America, who has issued t%ro highly critical 
reports, the first of which was sponsored by the law firm 
that represents the Nicaraguan Government, Reichler and 
Applebaum, the two investigators who did the investigation of 
the atrocities. Reed Brody, and a Journalist named Bolden, I 
believe his last name is, both were provided free transporta- 
tion, staff, offices, housing and cash by the Sandinista 
Government, the official human rights organization. 

And one of the defectors has since testified in 
public that the individual responsible for setting up the 
interviews was a member of the State_ Security^ apparatus. And 
that is how they publicize them. 

MR. BUCKt Do you have any knowledge, information, 
sensitive information, from this Committee, which has been 



;ate Security apparatus. 

UNCLASSIFIED 



677 



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leakad from this Conanitte«7 

THE WITNESS: Leaks are kind of tough to have 
direct knowledge of. I would say that aside from some 
newspaper accounts of meetings that have not yet been 
transcribed, I don't — I can't specifically point to any leaks. 

MR. BUCKi But you have knowledge of some stories 
that haven't been published yet, that have leaked from this 
Committee? 

MR. PRECUP: No, You misunderstood. 

THE WITNESS: No, the testimony that was given in 
private, that appeared in the newspapers before the tran- 
scripts «rere shown to us, or released by the Committee, such 
as The Washington Post article <U30ut the Worlds Affairs 
Counsellor's account. But I can't attribute them to any 
individual, or to the Committee directly. I don't— I am not 
sure where the leak caae from. 

MR. BUCXi Okay. 

Mr. Miller, Z would like to mark the following two 
doc«B*nt« •• Miller Deposition Exhibit Number 38 and 38-A, 
which X will sapply copies to anybody that needs them, as 
soon as this deposition is over. 

(The doeaaents referred to 
were marked for identification 
as Miller Deposition Exhibit 
Hoe. 38 and 39-A.) 



UNCIASSIHED 



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I. Nl. 

. O.C 10001 



IINCUSSIFIED 



671 



MR. BUCK: Do you recognize these documents, Mr. i 
Miller? ■ 

THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the report that we had | 
discussed earlier, prepared for Mr. Channeli, and it is a | 
number draft from my office. | 

MR. BUCK: Okay. For the record, Mr. Precup, I | 
would just like to state how I received those documents, and j 
if you would verify that, I would appreciate it. 

After a deposition recently, in which these 
documents were mentioned, I placed a telephone call to you, I 
believe in the middle of last week, requested those documents 
from you, and you agreed to produce those documents to avoid 
a subpoena, and we certainly had the opportunity to subpoena 
if we need to, and you produced those documents to me late 
last week, with no stipulations or conditions, or anything 
else attached to those documents, is that accurate? 

MR. PRECUPi Hell, the only correction, or addition 
really to what you said, because what you said is generally 
accurate, is that I did report to you that, when you asked me 
about it, that I had not heard of the documents, and that I 
would check with my client, and I subsequently did that. 
That is correct. 

MR. BUCKt All right. 



WUSSIFIEB 



Mr. Miller, could you explain a little bit about 
the sources through which, which ar« in those doctiments. 



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thoss materials — I 

THE WITNESS! Most of the materials are materials I 
we received by requesting them by mail, or they were given to | 
us by individuals who are members of policy organizations in I 
Washington, and some of them we got from data bases in the i 
available by computer linkup, and we requested on a couple of | 
occasions. Internal Revenue Service filings, which are public 
documents . 

There are about four more inches than what you have 
got here of computer printouts from our data bases, of the 
grant procedures, and the different organizational structures 
that are discussed in the White Paper itself. And I did not 
retain a copy of those, those were given to Mr. Channell, and 
I am sure they are retained in his offices, or at least I 
think they are, so. 

MR. BUCKi Would you discuss, just briefly, some of 
the accusations, some of the highlights, I guess, of the 
docQaent that is before you? 

THE WITNESS: Well, I will do that, but only if I 
am allo«fed to point out that this is a draft of a White Paper 
I supplied to Mr. Channell, it also was accompanied by a 
letter, which indicated to hia that while we were confident 
of our sources, we expected that he would supply this to 
legal counsel, so that they could review it, and I don't know 
whether he followed through on that or not, but tra certainly 



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have not provided it to anybody but Mr. Channell, for that 
purpose. 

The report is a general description of the organiza- 
tions working through the Communist Party of the United 
States, and foreign governments, including the State ap- 
paratuses of the KGBB, and Cuban Intelligence, to develop a 
network of supportive organizations in the United States, and 
how those organizations have formed political affiliations 
with elected officials and public policy groups, and finally, 
how those public policy groups have been involved in lobbying 
activities on behalf of the Nicaraguan Government, the 
Sandinista Party, the El Salvador radical left, and El 
Salvador guerrilla movements, as well as international 
Socialism and Socialistic causes. Socialist causes, I should 
say. 

MR. BUCKt You mentioned lobbying, Mr. Miller, are 
the lobbyists, to your knowledge, registered as lobbyists? 

THE WITNESS t Actually, one of the things we did in 
redoin9 this report was to the offices here on the Hill for 
both the Senate and House of Representatives, and we found 
none of the organizations which issued lobbying reports to 
their members and planning conaiU.ttees, registered as lob- 
byists, and in sosw cases they were tax exempt organizations. 
Those issuing reports about lobbying were tax exempt organiza- 
tions, and in soam cases S01(c}(3) and 501(c)(6), and nines. 



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and so forth. But none of them, I think, save one, was 
registered as a lobbyist. 

MR. BUCKt You mentioned active measures in the 
report, Mr. Miller, could you explain that, just a little bit? 

THE WITNESS: I haven't seen this in some time, so 
I will try and do it as best from memory as possible. The 
KGB has a Department of Active Measures, which is Involved in 
black propaganda misinformation efforts, and those are 
efforts designed to influence and manipulate foreign media, 
and political organizations, and they are generally carried 
out using things like forgeries of documents, as we saw with 
the AIDS scare, that was a document that was distributed by 
the KGB in Africa, and has since been publicized by the U. S. 
news media. 

And false reports about activities in places like 
Latin South America, which were then replayed in news 
organizations controlled by Communist Party organizations, 
and 'therefore then getting replayed in legitimate news 
organizations . 

MR. BUCK I I have no further questions. 

MR. OLIVER: I wonder if ve could take a five 
minute recess, as others of us have not seen those documents, 
and they have been discussed, and I did not know until they 
were produced by Mr. Buck, that they were in the possession 
of the Committee, and I regret that they were not shared with 



682 






UNGUSSFiED 



675 



us at an earlier time, since they were a subject of this 
deposition, but I would like to take a recess in order to 
examine those documents, to determine trhether I have any 
further questions relating to them. 

So could %re take a five minute break? 
( Short recess . ) 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

Q Mr. Miller, did you do the research on this 
document? • 

A I had ttro people in my office doing the research, 
and %re also used computer data bases, to do the research. In 
fact, most of the research was done by the computer data 
bases . 

Q There are contained in this document the Byla%ra of 
the Christie Institute. 

A Uh-huh. 

Q And some documents relating to them. Are you the 
objeilrt of a la%rauit by the Christie Institute? 
- A No. 

Have you been named in the lawsuit — 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q — by the Christie Instit 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Q There is also in here a letter from Senator John 



ICLASSIFIED 



Carey to Ambassador Bob White. Where did you obtain that 



683 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
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23 
24 



ONCUSSIHED 



676 



letter? 

A 
question. 



I would like to look at it before I answer that 



MR. OLIVER: We will go off the record for just a 



(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

Mr. Miller, I have asked you to examine a letter 
that is contained in that document from Senator John Carey to 
Ambassador Bob White, and my question was where did you 
obtain that letter. 

THE WITNESS: I an not exactly sure, but I believe 
this is the portion of a fundraising document, which is 
attached, which was sent to someone who provided a copy of it 
to me, and I think there are several pages here, including a 
fundraising letter from Robert White, referencing the letter 
from Senator Carey, so soaeone who received this in the mail 
gave us a copy of it. 

BT MR. OLIVER: 
Q Who waa that person? 

A I am not sure. One of people that was contacted by 
my research people. 

MR. OLIVBRt I have no further questions, thank you. 

MR. BUCK: That i« all I have. 



INCUSSinED 



Mr. Fryman is the witness excused? 



684 



h*«677 



T3 



^ 

i 



lauai MMMma CO. I 

M7 C Saw. NX 



UNCIASSIHED 



677 



MR. FRYMAN: Yes. The deposition is concluded, Mr. 
Miller. 

MR. PRECUP: Thank you. 

(Whereupon, at 3:05 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition was concluded.) 



KlI^SSW 



685 



vn 



^ 

4 

5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
II 
12 

u 

IS 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



•MM ■ »■ « !■■ <•- a*. 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



673 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 
I. Ronald Haek . the officer before whom the 
foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby testify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foreoinq deposition 
was/duty sworn byxxiM: that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me stenographically and thereafter reduced to type- 
writing under my direction; that said deposition is a true 
record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither colansel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and, further, that I ara not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action. 



f Public in and i 



Notary Public in and for 
the District of Columbia 



My coHBisslon expires Jun* 14, 1988. 



UNCIASSIHED 



686 



^r> A»t^ 




C-17 



687 




l(o J'^P'7 






michaCl nusSSaum 

MAKOUCWITC 9 OWCN 
• ONAUO O •»tCU» 
OAMC9 ^ OAVCN^OKT 
MAItTiN » BAACM 

CAUL C OuOLCr. ja 

OAvio N wcasTcn 

KATC A MARTIN 

SALLY A nCOAL 
OAVIO • WILHIN9 
CAKl S KXAVITZ 
CRIC L. LCWI9 
TCKMANCC S nCCO 



BY HAND 



NussBAUM, Owen & Websteh 

ONE THOMAS CIRCLE 
WASHINGTON. DC. 2000S 

1202) S33'S9O0 



O' COUNSCL 
LUCICN MILMCO 

"USStLL M rOA 



TCLCX 7S*T7I 
CaSlC nowlaw 

FAX (2021 Aeo-srae 



June 16, 1987 



James Kaplan, Esquire 

Senate Select Committee on Secret Military 

Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 
Hart Senate Office Building 
9th Floor 
Washington, D. C. 20515 



Re: Transcript 



Dear Jaimie; 



I return herewith the transcript of the tape recording 
which you loaned to us last week. Also enclosed is a list 
indicating to the best of the indicator's recollection who spoke 
what paragraphs. The indications are by initials, but since you 
know the attendees, you should have no trouble figuring them out. 
If you need help, give me a call. 



Very truly yours. 



RGP:jf 
Enclosures 



iIm \^. %i 10 



Zlzoltl 




Ronald G. Precup 



Oeclassitied/Reteased on I / fegg P 
under pronc.or;; o' c e 12356 
by K Jo,-,„son. Nanonal Security Council 



(54^ 



i>(>%1 



688 



UNCUSSIREO 



35311 



Pariially Oecia'isiliedfflsl^ased nn il t-c'^^ 

under pfovistons o( E 12356 

by K Johnson. National Securily Counal 




em 



4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

1 



Text Speaker 

It's the largest . . • '' 

We're helping them now • . . RM 

We're doing the media . . . RM 

Who pays" JR 

They do. And . . . RM 

Once they've le+t . . . *? 

No. they really haven't . . . "* 

They go on missions . . . ? 

Several o+ the ■fighters . . . FG 

Although they have . . . " 

Do these people . . . "^ 

There are^^Hregional . . . FB 

I* that cominand . . . "? 

Ye». FG 

We figure now . . . "^ 

The main thing . . . JR 

The second point . . . RM 

So even though . . . RM 

The ^^^^Vcan . . RM? 

The Nicaraguan army . . . RM? 

They need the Cuban . . . _CRC 

INCLASSira 



068ft 



689 







Page Para Text Speaker 

11 li -freedom is alive . . . FG 

12 So the people are . . . FG? 

35313 1 And that's a tough . . . i* 

2 But we have been . . . FG 

3 So we sent him . . . RM 

4 But when he was . . . RM 

5 They took 180 . . . RM or FS 

6 Se*, what happens . . . ? 

7 What they do . . . FS 

35314 I They give them • . . FG 

2 And his job . . . FG 

3 And they all do it. FG 

4 And then they turn . . . FG 

5 It's like the gun . . . JR 

6 The best I can tell . . . JR 

7 On a very rapid . . . FG"" 

8 The M16 fires . . . RM 

9 I bet I could . . . JR 

10 Only one problem. You . . . RM 

11 One reason Rich . . . FG 

12 They've come . . . ? 

13 The Miami Herald has . . . ? 

14 Frank and I set up . . . RM 




^i>$i 



690 




Page Para 
15 
35313 I 



6 

7 

S 

9 

10 

1 1 

12 

13 

14 

1 

2 



Text Speaker 

«28 million is . . . "^ 

has said publically . . . _PS or RM" 

They're playing » . . . "^ 

The more sophisticated . • . RM? 

And there was . . . ? 

Texans are the most . . . '' 

There really hasn't been . . . ? 

I don't think . . . ? 

Yes, this is . . . ? 

They have lost . . . ? 

There's nothing I hate . . . JR 

There isn't one dime . . . ? 

I have known . . . PG 

Adolto . . . *? 

Cruz IS . . . P:M 

But the point . . . ? 

They jailed 114 . . . "' 

But Adol-fo . . . " 

A'fter the elections . . . CRC 

Since thn I have . . . CRC 

As long as we . . . "" 

those guys »re down . . . ? 

It's not a set piece . . • ? 



0690 



691 



m 







Page Fara 



5317 



Text 

How long do your boots 
The humid. It's 



1 1 


They have done . 


_ 


12 


A^^^BB- 


-> 


IT- 


^^^^^H- 


-? 


14 


These Are Soviet-made . . 


. FG 


15 


They don't even . . . 


-> 


16 


Thats similar to . . . 


-, 


1 


These »re raw . . . 


FG 


2 


There's a 1 ot . . . 


FG 


3 


When I was there . . . 


FG 


4 


He said . . . 


n 


5 


I said . . . 


-. 


6 


"Some +or medical . . . 


FG 


7 


What's happened is . . . 


RM 


8 


Instead, they got . . . 


-, 


9 


And these boys . . . 


FG 


10 


That boy could . . . 


F6 


1 1 


He could . . . 


DC 


12 


the reality is . . . 


Rn 


17, 


The miracle that . . . 


FG 


14 


Having survived . . . 


- 


j5 


And they are . . . 


-. 



V3 :i««9»;^4.^'U^«laiLU 



Speaker 



FG 



dfo'^i 



692 



UlLASSiFiED 



Pa^e Far a '•'•"• 

33313 1 There are 12 . • • 

2 Hal* the -force* . • • " 

r I understand there . . • 

4 Yes, but . . . 

5 There *r9 no . . • 

6 But you don't . . • 

7 A ^^^H ir>*n . . . 

a It'» technology . . • 

9 If they had enough . . . 

10 How can you get . • • 

1 1 Yeah. ^^ 

12 They're getting . . . "^Q 

1~ But by the time . . • "^ 

14 They pay very . . . ^^ 

15 I would think . . . 

16 NO but they get . . . "* 

17 And, there other . . . " 

35319 1 I'm not sure . . . -^^ 

2 The insurgency has . . • 

3 Me can get you . . • 

4 Calero wants . . . ^^^ 

5 But •!* million . . . "* 

lajissife' 

Page -5- o* 10 



Ok^lS- 



693 



UNCUSSiFIED 




Page Para Tsxt Sp««k«p 

7 The «14 million h«» . . . ? 

a The only reason . . . ? 

9 There are] 
10 

11 Vice President . . 

12 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^Vneed 

13 They're hearing the . . . ? 

35320 1 And they're hearing . . . ? 

2 It boils down . . . ? 

3 The military aid . . . "? 

4 1+ you were about . . . ? 

5 Do they have . . . "? 

6 They do all right. "* 

7 We were going to i . . FQ 

8 I had to travel . . . FG 

9 And we loaded up . . . FG 

10 Where were . . . '' 

11 Yes, in the . . . FG 

12 And, by the way . . . _. FG 

13 These guys look good. *? 

14 In any case, we're . . . FG 

15 We were going . . . FG 

16 Over the side, heavy . . . FG 



694 



UNJUSW 



Page 



Par* Text Speaker 

21 1 This was about 4,000 . . . FS 

2 Jungle. ^^ 

3 Temperature. It's warm . . . FG 

4 This IS in good . . . ^^ 

5 In fact, some . . . ^^ 

6 In any case, we . . . PS 

7 We stopped and I . . . PQ 

8 And that's what they're . . . FS 

9 And I said . . . ^S 

10 And they said . . . PS 

11 We sent NiQht line's . . . PRM 

12 I said . . . P^P"^ 

13 She said . . . ^^" 

14 They were in the same . • . f*RM 

15 There is an entire group . . . — ^ 
:.22 1 Can you imagine . . . "^ 

2 How about the Baptists . . . ^ 

3 Let's show those . . . " 

4 We have been waiting . . . 

5 And It's a shame. Because ..." 

6 The beauty this time . . . "^ 

7 But we are on . . . ' 

a And 1^ we can . . . "^ 



om 



695 




SiFi 



Fage Far A Tert Speal er 

9 We going to call . • . JR 

10 We're going to start . . . JR 

M And they keep calling . . . JR 

12 "We got an empty semi . . . JR 

13 But the organisation . . . 7 

14 find we brought up . . . ? 

15 The point here is . . . ? 

35323 1 He stood up . . . ? 

2 Now that will scare . . . i* 

3 The guy that did that . . . "> 

4 It's paid for by . . . ? 

5 I don't see how . . . ? 

6 There are rational . . . ''???!'?' 

7 The reality is that they . . . ? 

8 ron Dell urns was . . . "^ 

9 The reality is you have . . . "? 

10 Because anybody you'd . . . ? 

11 They shouldn't be . . . "' 

12 Calero was so tired . . . CRC 

13 What I mean to imply . . . CRC 

14 One, 1 + he did not . . . CRC 

15 He would not su'f-fer . . . CRC 

16 We're going to see . . . CRC 




^15 



696 



ONCLA 



F'age 



35324 



Para 

17 

18 

1 



6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

1 



Te::t Speat.er 

That's what we"re going . . . "^ 

Where is his . . . ■^^ 

They're scared in , . . " 

Everytime we call . . . " 

It's a very di-f-ficulty . . . "^ 

Well. Al-fonse . . . f^P^'M 

And it blew out . . . RR" 

TalV: about terrorism. "* 

They have had two attempts . . . '' 

Nobody has ever tried . . . " 

I-f you really want to I: now . . .? 

Starlite scope. You . . . '' 

This IS Nicaraguans . . . PG 

The real reason . . . ^ 

We are serving . . . "■ 

It would be a shame . . . " 

What bother me . . . JR 

Look at what's happened . . . PG 

The military held . . . PG 

And that ended . . . PG 

Because hereto+ore . . . RFin 

And they put democracy . . . ^ 

And the same guys 




^'iilH- 



n% 



697 



iiNCUSsm 



Page 



Para 

8 

9 
10 
1 1 
12 
13 

1 



6 
7 
8 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 



Te;:t Speaker 

For me, the bottom line . . . "^ 

People lile Mario . . . ? 

Well, tNey damn well will . . . _? 

There sre more . . . ? 

They're ready . . . "^ 

AK«!< sounds . . . ? 

Between now and May . . . "* 

Because if they succeed . . . ? 

There's 2 di'f + erent kinds . . . _'' 

So you have to have . . . ? 

They have -flare system . . . RRM 

For one thing . . . ? 

I* you provide money . . . RRM 

On the other hand . . . RRM 

Whatever you do . . . N/A 

I'd encourage you . . . N/A 

That'll make a lot . . . N/A 

We haven't heard . . . N/A 

Please respond . . . 

You ta>;-deducti ble check . . . 

Once you gi+t arrives . . . 

=== END OF DOCUMENT ==================== 

Ul 




Di>V 



698 



i::;.^:;sifiHi 



lllCc^VC '-I , ICX^ <'C. 



N - 



^ 



let eh« Ur|«tt b«tt er|«nlt«d and mett •ff«c£tv« and U'l eh« en* 

ch«c has th« U.S. tuppert (or ch« longtsc pariod of dm*. ^ 6 9 "^ n 

W« ' r« h«lptn| ch«m new co coordlnac* chtir Wathlngcon accivicta*. 
U* ' V* tscablishad «n effica for cham. W« ' v« found pcopla to do chair congratsional 
affairs for cham on a gracis basis. 

tfa ' ra doing cha nadia coordination for cham and also cha coordination 
of maatmgs as tha circla goas out bayond just madia & Congrassional relations. 
Now into fund raising 1 administrat iva & Logistical things. 

Who pays? 

Thay do. And it's pracious monay to tham whan thay'ra lata on txpansas 
as difficult as it may ba you hava to ramind yoursalf that somabody diad down thar* 
today. You can't raally gat mad. 

Onca thay'va lafc tha country lika chat aran't chay totally dapandanc 
on donations of ona kind or anochar? 

No, chay raally havan't left cha country, tha in a poch 




■'5 "H l2 Thty go on missions that last 6 to 9 months. 

^~ -^ -i- Savaral of tha fightars impressed upon m* how much more comfortable 

T ta. "^ they are :n the field fighting. Thay siad thay eat better, thay sleep better. 
_> g ' Their wit.h :heir people. They're being given food & intelligence and a place :3 
sleep and so on. chay accually prefer to be in the field to the camp. 

Although chey have to go back to the camp for orientat.on. to^ ms: -jc- 
1 or » i H. . _, . _«._ . . 

Do ■.^e'.f people all have reaio*. so thev know what'* loinc 



\\m ft?5i£inu®^ 



699 






-IINClASSm 

Thert arc^^ragionjl cotarund* wlch from anywt^r* (mpl 
m«n. Each* of chos« conmandf Is in radio concact with headqu*re«ri. ^^^5^ Q -5 

I» chat command moving coo' 

y«» • Th«y'r« moving also. 

W« figure now as many as^^^^young men. 4nd in some cases, older 
men, across the border, mside Nicaragua, waiting co come over, but there arenc 
weapons and boots for them. 

The main thing I wanted to find out is what his needs really are. .-low 
his weapons are. 

The second point is chat the people in the camps arc primarily there 
for R 4 R and for re-supply. the wa r is not a set-piece battle. Ic is an insurgency 
And, in fact, they have about^^^^insurgencs whereas the Sandanistas, when they 
won, only had about 3,500. 

So even though they're so out-gunned, in terms of technology and weaponr 
Im a country of 2.5 million is a hell of a big insurgency. 

'^he^^^^Hcan tie up a 100,000 man army. 

The Nicaraguan army is 100,000. There are nearly as many Cubans ;n 
Nicaragua as there are freedom fighters. 

They need the Cubans and their tanks to keep their own people around. 

If freedom is alive and well in Nicaragua, they don't need 100. 000 
people CO try to snuff out^^^^^uer 1 1 las . Originally, during the opposition 
to Somoya, the people did have shotguns and pistols. Because the struggle against 
Somoya had been going on for several years, as a matter of fact, at the time Costa 
Rica was a conduit for arras to the Sandanista forces and provide the popular upris: 
and that is eventually what happened. 

So the poeple are armed. In view of this, the Sandanistas have even 
cleared the militia. which is part of thac 100,000 men under arms. And they're 
not feartjl ot providing arms co people, but they keep them under control -hroue-; 
vjrious surwellancc techniques, such as what Cubans call Sandanista Defense Cott 1 -. : •:•. 



I lock Commirri 



UNCLASSIFIED 



700 



•van b«Jlft« to look Uka thay'ra ••( 



b«flft« to look Uka thay'ra (•tctn| out e( Una is inforQJk* jwet 



^2 



Anybody who 

And that 'I a tough apparatua to (Ight today in Nlearagga. 

But. wa hava baan In touch, bacauaa o( our axparianea, with cha tntira 
ranga of tha arma d and Oia political opposition to cha Concras and whan Rich was 
talking about tha^^^^Harma, ha's not rafarring to tha Wesqulcas . Thara's 2 Hosqu 
groups. Thara's tha Wisura Brooklyn Ktvara and Scaadman Pagoth and Misurasata and 

than thara is Misurasata, which is a combination of Sumu . Kama and indians 

which has aobuc anethat^^^^^nan undar arms, plus c h4^^^^^ unda r aROC, cha thing 
cchac graw out of it, which is cha Oamocracic Ravelucionary AUianca, which has 

arms right abouc^^^^^^ But was in^^^^^^^^Ln 
thara was ona guarllla laadar who told ma chay had^^^^^^^fraady to fight, but 
thay naadad coranunications, books, waapons and laadarship. Thay'ra raady to fight, 
but thay naadad conoiunclat ions, Wa sant dotm a military axpart to judga 
tha viability. So that whan ha caiia back, ha could ba part of cha Congrassienal 
dabata. Bacuasa ona of tha disinformation piacas thay usad against tha fraadom 
flghtars is that thay'ra not militarily viabla. 

So wa sant him down to look at it. Ha's a formar Colonal in cha Canadi. 
Air Forca. And ha's a profassor of Intarnatlonal Ralations at Boston Univarsicy. 
Ha flaw in Viatnan. Hla nama is Yorkamatra. A raal dynamic fallow. 

But whan ha was down thara, in fact NBC got it on film, chay sand an 
SOO man forca againac a 2,000 a»» contingant of artillary and infantry and roucad 
tham. Thay wara gatting raady to attack cha camps. Thay cook 13 casualcias. 3 
diad. Thay klllad 280. And routad tha forca antiraly. 

Thay cook 160 AK47s. Thay cook morcars, hand granadas. 

Saa, what happans is, chay g*c a lot of chas waapons back. And :hev 
don't hava anmunicion for chatit. Thay gac AKiTs and chay don'c hava cha aninunici3n 
for Cham. 

Whac chay do with thair young raeruics n thay giva tham an old Span.«" 
ball rifle, tha FAL, cha (old^ bole acnon. roll o one rifla . and his lob .? •. - 
go out wich hi» rifld, and after he * < h.id his tr.iininn - vou know [hcv 3r ;■.- :-■-- 
(. r 1 1 n I ng. 



701 



UNCLASSIFIED 



H 



ntng and chey give ch«m liSve *nimunicat ion frfi^rt^* 



They give them formation crair 
Ic's very professionally done. 

And his job is co come back wich his FAL and an AK47. 

And chey all do ic. 

And then they turn their FALs back in. It goes to the next recruit. 

It's like the gun we made in World War II for S2.S0. It would shoot 
just one time. You use that to get a real gun. We dropped them by air m France. 

The best I can tell, a shotgun is the best thini; to use in jungle warta: 

On a very rapid fire machine gun. That's why the AK47s and the M16s 
are the best weapons. 

The M16 fires a 22. S caliber bullet. 

I bet I could get 10,000 people to give their old shotgun to this. 

Only one problem. You can't export guns for military use from the 



U.S. 



One reason Rich and I almost feel excited about this 



because, on March 1, for the first time, the various opposition forces got together. 
They signed a document. 

They've come to the realization that the opposition to the Sandanistas 
now IS as broad, if not broader, than that which was there for Somoya. 

The Miami Herald has turned around. The Washington Post has turned 
around. 

Frank and I sec up the editorial board for Arturo Crug and Alfonso 
Robello and «• went over and it came out about the San Jose document in the head'.me 
of the lead editorial was "A Fair Offer to the Sandanistas." 

$28 million is totally inadequate. (Alfonso Robello says) S14 miU:3n 
is doubly totally inadequate. A Hind helicopter costs well over $23 million and 
there's 12 of them and they're coming. 



BStUSSffl 



702 



1 



UNCLASSIFIED 



has said publlcally, so thac the Sandaniscas(i^iXijc^^r 

stcrac radio coimunicac ions in ch* field saying wc have r(d-«ves. 



Ics a big U«. 

Th«y'r« playing a psychological war againsc ch« Sandaniscas. 

Tht mora sophist icactd of the shouldtr-held missies, the red-eyes. 
There's 2 different kinds. One chat's a liccle less expensive and there's one chats 
SS.OOO. Ic can cake it out. 

And there was a scare about 3^ weeks ago. They called in the crews . 

Texans are the most patriotic. 

There really hasn't been a vehicle, almost before tonight, for a direc: 
mechanism to them. Because it's been such delicate territory chat nobody's really 
worked ouc the details on it. 

1 don't chink that anybody who's sat with somebody at a table like 
this yet, It's going right chere. It's buying these rounds. And its buying chat 
missle. It's buying that boot. 

Yes, this IS the first. 

They have lost a large portion, just because they've had to go through 
middle men. 

There's nothing 1 hate worse than getting screwed. I'-n scared to :ea:i 
any money I give to this thing is going to end up in somebodies pocket. 

There isn't one dime that isn't going right into Adolfo Calero ' s hands. 
Sot one dime. 

I have known Adolfo Calero for roughly 2 years going on 3 years. He 
was jailed by the Sandniscas. He lead strikes against Somoya. He encouraged n:s 
own employees to go out on strike against Somoya. 

Adolfo Calero was jailed by Somoya. But Adolfo Calerois a conserva: ; .e . 

Cruz IS a social Democrat. He believes in a free economy but he sei^e.o^ 
in governmenc supporc for a free economy which will never work. I used to work 



.u AID jnd ! ' vc seen these kind. 



MHWSsro 



703 



,[.'- '. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Buc th« poinc li ch«t ch« •nclr* tpaccorum nowrit In oppetitien co 

H 
ch« S«nd*ni-»e*«. Th« tnclrt jpeecrum. ^3^Q 

Th«y Jallad 114 Social Chrlsdans a month ago. Ic causad Cham Incradib 

harm hcra in Washington. 

But Adolfo Calaro It a consarvacia. Ha nevar gava in. H« ncvar gave 

in to tha camptatlon of trying to nagociaca with tha Sandanistai. 

Afcar tha alactions, aftar the plans for tha ravolution, the state 
of Nicaragua, tall January, 1983, 2^ years after tha time for revolution, he came 
to Washington co lobby for aid to tha Sandanisca government. 

Since thn I have seen him on counclass occasions, he has been so tired 
from working on behalf of his men and this cause. 

As long as w« stay on top, as long as w« stay in the offensive position, 
they will be on tha way out. 

those guys are down there. They've got 2,000 Soviets. 
They've got 6,000 Cubans. There's 2,000 . 

It's not a set piece battle. The thing that has changed the equacion 
are the Russian tanks, che Russian artillery and the Russian Hind helicopters. 

How long do your boots last? Maxifflurn 3 months. Why is that'' 

The humid. It's w«c. And because they do a lot of walking. Thev' re 
not riding i n truc ks, there are no trucks. They walk. And over pretty rough :erra: 

They have dona a pretty good job of getcing their wounded cared for » 
Because, psychologically, you've got to have that. 




These are Soviet-made land mines. They have been uncovered bv :he 
guerillas, disarmed, and brought back to camp. And thev' re going co re-arm :he- 
and place them again against the Sandanistas. 

They don't even have cheir own mines. 

Th^ts similar to a claymore. 



\m Ks.) 



704 



UNCIASSIFIED 



These are raw recruits. Look ac che cm can ch 



C M 
i» guy trts. Innead 



of a conteen. 



69' 



There's a loc of heavy cerram. They do a lot of ambushing. 

When I was there, I asked why there were so many men in the camp. 
I want to know how many men you have her. 

He said. "5,000. '■ 

I said, "How many do you have in the field'" 

"Some for medical care; some for R 4 R; some to be re-supplied, refi:;'? 
But most of them because we don't have even a pack for them to carry the;r an— ^n;;-. 
Thev don't have boots. 

What's happened is, the Sandanistas started their drive for military 
conscription. And they thought they would get support. 

Instead, they got insurrection. In several of che major cities. Major 
insurrections. Coordinated insurrecclons. 

And these boys came across the border. And their mochers and fathers 
sent them. They said, "If you're going to fight, fight for che side that will ^-.v* 
you a choice. And that's why they flghc. 

That boy could have gone to Costa Rica. But they sent him to Honduras 
to fight instead. 

He could have gone to Costa Rica and just cooled out. They sent him 
to Honduras to fight. 

the reality is we're on che side of the angels with all this.. 

The miracle that I know about is that these people chac we were ;js: 
talking about have the highest morale. It brings tears to your eyes to see :hese 
peop le . 

Having surrived and even grown since last may when the aid was rut 
off. 

And they are having to tell people. "I'm sorry you cannot join js . 
vou CHonoL flghc. because wc cannot give vou i w<>apon to tight wi'h. 5.^ -nnc" » 



^v^ vou boot I 



so char vou c^n go tight. 



\mmm 



705 



►<'/'■ 



'^■^>^^€^f^^ 



^. UNCUSSinEO •<--^ 

'™»Xljr«^l2 h«lleopttr»«-^And If char* w«i on« rtady for aich on* 

C u 

of ui, wt'<» talking «bouc 196,000. >7 i > 

Half ch« forca* now who art tn oppotitlon co the Sandanlsta* voifi 
curn tha othar way If Anarlcan* want co fig'"C, and wa don't nead Amarlcans. 

I undarstand thara ara a bunch of Aniaricans down chara. 

Yas, but thay'ra voluntaar trainars. Thara Just doing training. They'r 
in and out. 

Thara are no Amarlcans. 

But you don't naad them. 

A^^^^Hman insurgency against 40,000 full time rank and file military. 
60,000 ara militia. ^° ^^^^^ ^^'* '*** technology thats throwing the whole thing 
out of kilter. 

It's technology of Hind helicopters, Soviet tanks and the Soviet rapid 
fire assault rifles that everybody on cha other side has. That's what's throwing 
it out. 

If they had enough anuminition for the AK47s and they had enough red 
eyes to strategically place themselves. 

How can you get ih* r€i^*^^4^ Are they readily available? 

Yeah. 

They're getting anus on the international market. From everybody. 



^ 

^ 



Buc by tha tlai* you go through 2 or 3 wholesalers, aren't you paying 
10 times tha prlca? 

Thay pay vary carefully. They've got pretty good credit right now 
with the wholesalers. But it doesn't extend far enough to get the AK47 rounds chev 
need on the red eye missies. 

1 would think they would be tha first ones to start manufacturing AK^'i 



No but they get them from 



They can get the rifles, but 



^^ they can't carry off the ammunition to supply the riffles. 



And. there other supplier* 



!ii^r.i mm 



706 



UNCLASSIFIED 



02692 



8 



I'n noc tur« p«opl« nt*d aucomaclc weapons. 

Th« Insurgency has to Uv« off the commodUles available through succeis. 

We can gee you a briefing on exactly what their niltcary needs are. 

Calero wants those red eye mlssj es. He wants bao ci. H e wants back 
packs. He wants AK<>7 rounds which you can get on the International market . He 
wants communications equipm«nc. 

But $1^ million could be spent in 2 months without batting an eye. 

Reagan ought to forget the $1^ million and start asking for a whole 
lot more. 

the $14 million has already been appropriated by Congress. And it 
can be released under certain conditions stepulaced by the Congress. So that's 
what we're stuck with. 

The only reason they've succeeded so far is because of people like 



yourself who have provided the material support for them to keep going. And it's"* 
not jusc A/nerlcans. 

There are^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B There 
are Central Americans who are bacing this effort. 

The^^^^^^^^^^nave been backing this. Until It began to look like 
the United States might not really bother at the right time when they needed them. 

Vice Pretldenc Bush went to Honduras 2 weeks ago on his way back from 
Brazil where ha accended Ch« Inaguration of the new ^resic 




Ineed the same kind of issues. They're going co go with 
the winner. And yet they're hearing multiple voices out of this country. Sot this 
administration, but this country. 

They're hearing the President saying that theie are Freedom Fighters. 



^O thrtt they're our brothers and so on. 



m\ raFB 



707 



^ 

^ 
^ 



UNCLASSIFIED ■ . ,^^ 

And they're htjring someone like Michael Barnes In the Congress ^a^ing. 



now wait . 



We're not out to topple governments. 
Ic boils down to that. 

Th« military aid. its surprising, boils down to back packs and boots. 
Youd think weapons would be the most important thing on the list. 

If you were about to set out anywhere from 3 to 9 months walking deep 
into territory, jungle, roads, mountains, rain, and so on, and you knew that vou 
were going to gone for a long time, you would want to have a good pair of shoes, 
wouldn't you? 

Do they have much trouble with disease in that area? 
They do all right. 

We were going to rendevous with some reporters who were coming to look 
at the bases and son. 

I had to travel with Calero and a couple of the members of the directorate 

'i 
of the FDN plus a Mosquito fighter who had been in training there and a few others. ' 

And we loaded up in the two vehicles. 

'•Jhere were you? In Nicaragua. 

Yes, in the disputed territory in Nicaragua. 

And. by the way, they control an enormous amount of territory there. 
They are supreme there. You drive down the road and you're out of the base camp 
and you've been going on the road for a half an hour and you see these guys walking 
along the ro«d, and they're Contra. And you wave to them. 

These guys look good. 

In any case, we're going up these mountain roads and I am just about 
fit to be tied. Because, m a jeep, 4 wheel drive, with about 6 people, even c-ouji 
It's a mountain road, you feel that you ought to be able to at least go preccv -re 11 
forward, right? 

We were going like this. 

Over the side. he.ivy of a load and ! was on the side .ird I w,m iroKinc 



708 



w 



.N 




down th«r« and it's about tStSo' f*»i straight down. p 

H 

. JThis was about 4,000 or 5,000 feet altitude. ^ ^ 30 

Jungle. 

Temperature. It's warm maybe 75-80 degrees. 

This is in good weather, this is dry reason. But it rains a little 
bit and the roads are pretty bad. 

In fact, some strategist think the best thing we could do for those 
people would be to get them a bulldozer so they could help maintain those roads. 

In any case, we were going like this, and I literally six inches from 
going over. Six inches. Somebody was with us. 

We stopped and I got out. And I looked at the tires on that jeep. 
It was a Toyota. And they were literally bald. Nothing there. 
And that's what they're surving with. 
And I said, "why haven't you got tires?" 
And they said. "Because back packes and boots are more important than 






We sent Nightllne's crew there and they did a very positive story. 
Ue worked very hard with them to make sure we had journalists were sympathetic. 
And I got this call from this producer when she came back. 

I said, "How was it ?" 

She said, "It was fine. Except the part where we were going down the 
hill sideways." 

Th«y were In the same jeep that he was in. They hadn't changed the 
tires yec because they didn't have money to change them. 

There is an entire group right now of Nicarguan exiles who've been 
involved in the fighting themselves. One guy who's involved is setting up the anti 
Pope demonstrations where they spit on the Pope and all that stuff. And we have 
these guys, in Washington, and in other areas, right now, sitting on their hand«. 

Because there hasn't been the money to pav for their airplane tickets and i^rhn 
things ro get them out to the disiricts. \ ikn Jim Wrighr's disrrict. and havr •-.-••. 
spc.ik up. 



!i Av^inrn 



•■ (J 



1/ 



709 



Can you tmagin* what ch« rtaction would b« If ch« peopU In Jim Wright i 
dlltrlcc kn«w whac thty did to ch« Pop* dotm chtra? 

How about the Baptises th«y hand-gr«nad«d? Wa hava soma of thosa. 
Wa hava soim -Evangal Icals who whcra hand-grenadad. 
Lat't show thosa on tha eapa. 
W« have baan waiting for lltarally months. We have these people si:cing. 

waiting, ready to go. And they could have been going earlier, but a couple people 

got cold feet about spending money for then to go out and do these things. 

And it's a shame. Because they could have had major impact on the 

debate. Particlarly back in the home districts of these |Congre,ssm*n and Senators 

^ ^ J36931 

that we're voting for. 

The beauty this time is that w* are on the side of the insurgency which 
Is the first time, except Afghanistan, but we can't get closa enough to see it. 

But we are on the side of the insurgency. 

And if we can continue, as we've been working so hard to do, to turn 
the media around, they will start to romanticise about these guys who are the Democrat: 
gueri 1 las . 

We going to call it the Shotgun Drive. And we're going to get Seminjton 
to put up the aino. Dupont owns Remington. 

We're going to start on CBs. We're not even going to involve the elec:r;r 
media until we get support or we have about 3 semis going north on Tobacco Road 
out of North Carolina full. 

And they keep calling on another semi. 

"W* got an eapty semi out there? Somebody got an 18-wheeler empty 
can come on down and help liberate Central America?" 

But the organization who was in charge of putting it together utilized 
a Sandanista office in Managua to put together the report. 

And we brought up this guy for a news conference and we had it last 
week and Time and Newsweek and AP and everybody reported on it. You look at Time 
magazine. This week's Times you'll see a little thing about a PR firm. That's 



^ 

^ 



The point here is this U.S. Congressman stood up with people. He rojicn 



UNCLASSIHED 



710 



J)f-' 



6 



wmm 



b« chat nalv*. H« had to knew who chat* paepla wara. 

_^Ha atoed up with Cham. Ha had a nawt confaranca wlch thaa. And ha 
sponiorad chair raporc. Which waa claarly boughc and paid for by a connunite govarnmcnt 
in Managua. 

Now chac will acara cha hill ouc of paopla. 

Tha guy chac did chac Human Rlghci Scudy it a raambar of cha Nacional 
Lawyers Guild, which la a Communlsc f rone . ^ 11 036Q^O 

Ic's paid for by cha Sovlac Union. Licarally. 

I don'c sea how anybody In chlsa councry could radonally be a Coimunlsc . 

Thara ara racional Conmunlsct. 

Tha realicy is chac chay profass vlaws %fhich ara vary lafc. Socialises. 
And yac chay'ra vary willing co accapc a Connunisc governiMnc. 

ron Oallums was a parfacc axanpla. Ha knaw axaccly whac waa going 
on in Cranada. Ic was flna wlch him. 

Tha realicy is you have cha righc co ba concerned and you have che 
ducy CO be suspicious. 

Because anybody you'd alacc co chac posldon and would even do ic ouc 
of naivece, shouldn'c ba chare. 

They shouldn'c b* char*. 

Calaro waa so dred, h* couldn'c even keep his eyes open when we were 
speaking wlch him on soom very Inporcanc Issues. 

Whac I a*an co Imply by describing him in chac way Is chac chis man 
is cofiinlc*4. R« does noc have co undergo whac ha is undergoing now. 

OfM. If h* did noc believe In ic. Or cwo, if he were using whac resources 
he is receiving for personal gain. 

He would noc suffer Chac much. 

We're going Co see co ic chac man doesn't havec co come up here and 
beg anymore co be able co fight for freedom. 



^ That's what we're going to do with you in 



Where is his tamily? In Miami. 



# 



^^^ 



711 



UNCUSSiFIED 



Thty'r* tcarad In Miami , frankly. 

BvarytiiM w« call chtra, w« g«c a call fron tooMbody tlta said "why 
did you call?" 

It's a vary dlfflculcy mancallcy. 

Wall, Alfonta Roballo, ona of tha 3 guyi who mat with Raagan, was hand 
granadad in San Josa in Novambar. Ha haard a crash. Ha was driving a llccle Renault . 
Ha was wlch his flanca. Ha haard a crash. Ranaulc. Ha was wich his fiance. He 
stopped tha car. Put It in neutral. Opened the door and turned around like that 
and the grenade went off. 

And it blew out both his eardrums and peppered him. Bloew out his 
fiances back. C „ 036933 

Talk about terrorism. 

They have had two attempts on Alfonse Robello. Two attempts on Eden 
Pastore. Two attempts on Anturo Cruz. And nobody has every tried to kill Daniel 
Ortega. 

Nobody has ever tried to kill Byardo Arsis. 

If you really want to know who has a policy of systematic violence, 
look to the Sandanlacaa. 

Starliee aeope . You can see at nlta. Good for hundreds of yards. 
Made in Alabama. 

This la Nlcaraguans for Nicaragua. We hava an indigenous, tiny force 
that grew ly oa Ics own accord, that matured of its own accord, and is only now. 

_f' Iba real raason we're here is a matter of personal conviction. There 
isnochlng In it for ui personally. 

We are serving the larger and more mobile cause. That is the casue 
of freedom and democracy. Which we see threatened by the condnuation of the Sandanisc 
regime in Nicaragua. 

It would be a shame if they won by default. If they won because chcv 
O were willing co put in the money that gave them the cechnolofiy to surceod whcrr 



NfilAWinrn 



^ 

^ 



712 



UNClASSinED 

wh*r« *h««r numbart and »h««r political forca wouldn't. That* what's so disturbing 
to KM about* fc. 

What bothars ma Is what happens aftar thay'va won. Look at all these 
soldiers thac have to go back to being peasant farnars. 

Look at what's happened in Guatemala. Look at what happened in El 
Salvador. 

The military held chat news conference In El Salvador and chey said, 

"We in tend to back this government and the results from this Aecclon." 

C H 17 
And that ended the argument. ^ <J 6 9 3 4 

Because heretofore they'd been the final arbitrator and here they were 
Che preliminary arbitrator and they said, "This Is fine," and that's the end of 
the argumanc. 

And chey put democracy on a sound footing in El Salvador. 

And Che same guys thac are fighting now for the FDN, that's what they 
fought for, they're the same people who fought against Sotnoga! They were fighting 
for Che same thing against Somoza thac they're flghclng for now. And it's democracy. 

For me, the bottom line Is, these are people who are willing co fight 
for cheir freedom and for democracy. So chat we won't have to fight ourselves. 
LULAC 

People like Harlo Oblede from the LULAC based in Texas, an Hispanic 
organization. Saw him on cv In Houston yesterday. Ha was going "Oh, no. we're 
highcenin^ caaslont and I'm afraid that our boys are going to have co go down there 
and flghc." 

Wall, they damn well will fight unless we get behind the right side 
right now. 

There are more Hispanic Hedal of Honor winners than any ocher national ic^ 
in the United States. 

They're ready to go. They're ready to fight. 

AK$& sounds are a liccle less than $1 a round. 



lINHIiWIFIFn 






713 



.r- . uNcussra 

..^^l \^ B«cw««n now and lUy 1, Cha r«d ay* ailaalaa could ba eha antlra kay. 

Bacauta if thay luceaad at this point In launching an effanslva Including 
tank* and eha MI24 hallcopcars into chat raglon and go for cha cant... 

Thara'a 2 dlffaranc kinds of rad aya nisslaa. Thara'i ona chat's vary 
unsophiscicatad which Is just a dlracc shot tnlssla. And than thara's ona that's 
abla to taka on cha Hind bacausa tha Hind has major dacoy davtcas, has haavy armaniMnt 
and it has thasa fflus on tha back of cha axhausts from tha jats - cha axpulslon 

c 

from tha angina - chat mask tha haat . ff 

So you hava to hava tha $8,000 rad aya to maka it work. ^S ^ r- 

Thay hava flara systaa on cha MI24s and thay drop tha flaras out. 

For ona thing, thara's a trada off. 

If you provida mcnay for aafflunltlon, tha nonay thay'va sat asida for 
anmunition can go to boots. 

On cha othor hand. If you provida monay for boots, what thay'va sat 
asida for boots can to ammunition. 

Whatavar you do in ragard to that list (of Calaro's naads), I chink 
you can ba proud of what sarvica you provida for danocracy. I think ultimacaly 
you can ba proud to stand that day In Managua whan thara's a fraa country inaguraced 
down thara. 

I'd ancouraga you to parclclpaca now whila you can tclll maka a diffarcncc 

That'll maka a lot of dlffaranca to a lot of buys down thara. I'm 
sarleus abouc that. 

W« havan't haard from you yat. 

Plaaaa raspond to tha Prasidant's raquast for aid to tha Nicaraguan 
rafugaas. 

You tax-daductibla chack of $3S0 or mora will ba a miracla gift. The 
Nicaraguan rafugaas ara homalass, impovarishcd and woundad flghtars for freedom. 

Onca you gift arrives, your name will ba innadiately added to che Preside 
Honor Roll of Concerned Americans. We are presenting the Honor Roll to che President 
on the 15th of May. 



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FROM: RrCHPRO R. H[LLER. OFRECrOR 
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OOTE: OCroeER 15. 1986 
CODE: 3963 

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Section 793 D>f«M tepcoprlatlons fet for FY 1983 
— "Th* aolanfl mmAmnft 




"Sac. 793. fbn* of th* finds provided in this 
j^st asy be used by the Cantral Intelligence Agency 
or the Department of Defense to furnish ailitary 
equipaentf ailitary training or advioe* or other 
st^port for ailitary activities, to any group or 
Individual, not part of a country's arnad forces, 
for the purpose of overthrowing the Qovemoent of 
Nicaragua or provoking a ailitary exchange between 
Nicaragua and Honduras." 

Section 775 of t he Departnent of Defense Appcopciations 
tet for FY l»ft4 - 't£ iH aiUlai cap"; 

"Sec. 775. During fiscal year 1984, not aoce than 
$24,000,000 of the finds available to the Central 
XnteUigenoe Agency, the Oepartnient of Defense, or 
any other agency or entity of the Urtitad States 
involved In Intelligence activities nay be obligated 
or eayended for the purpose or vhlch would have the 
effect of supporting, directly or Indirectly, ailitary 
or paramilitary operations in Nicaragua by any iMtion, 
groi^, organization, ■ a v anwnt, or Ixtdividual.* 



Decentec 21, 1982 - 
Oecenber 8, 1983 

fi M 015182 



Oecenber 8, 1983 - 
Septsnber 30, 1984 



Section 8066 of the Department of Defense fppropclatlons 
tet to^ Ti 1985 -- *> cull prohibition en support tor 
paraail itary activity* i 



October 1, 1984 - 
Decanter 19, 1985 



"Sec. 8066. (a) During fiscal yaar 1985, no finds 
avail^le to the Central Intelligence Agency, the 
Oepartnnt of Defense, or any other agmcy or entity 
of the Qhitad States involvad in intelligence activitiea 
■■y be obligated or wy n amA foe the purpose or Mhich 
would hava the effect of sufiportlng, directly or indirectly, 
ailitary ec paranilitacy operations in N iea r agua by any 
nation, grav, ocganlaatlon, aovnent, or individual." 



Partially Oeclassifiea/Released op /0P668 8 
under provisions ol E \2}';o 
by K Johnson, National Secun^ Council 



aupplesental Jippcopclatlona foe n 1985i 



fVstds available 
from August 15, 
1985 - March 31, 
1986 



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— Provided $27,000,000 foe htaiinitarian assistance to 
the oontras, defining the tera "hwanitarian assistance" 
as "food, clothing, aedlclne and other hiannitarlan 
aaslstanoa, and it does not include the peovision of 
weapons, iieipms systsns, aisanition, or other ee^ip- 
aent, v^tlcles oe asterial which can be used to inflict 
serious bodily bene or doath." 




rj79 






/J 



721 



-2- 

c«/.«- im 105 ot 0» Inflllqcnee Author iMtlon itot for - f^ O»ci i^r 4. 1985 

gy \ ^ii ~» "pfitfd huwaniUrian •id, oammications wwwer iJUjlflBjLg i«. 

aupooct. intilllq<nc« rtarlnq, infr«struetur« •xpenditufta't 

•S«:tion 105. (a) F^jndt «v«ilabU to th« 0«tr«l R m .ti r ., „ _ 

Zntf»lli9Wio* A9«ncy# tim Mputnmt of Otftna*, or any " ^ < I b i 

othtc agwvy or wtity of tht tuitad States Involved in 

int«lli9enoa activities aay be obligated and e^^cnded 

daring fiscal year 1986 to provide fvnds, mteriel, or 

other assistance to the Nicaragoan denocratie resistance 

to support allitary or paranilitary operations in Nicaragua 

only as authorized in Section 101 and as specified in the 

classified Schedule of Authorizations referred to in 

Section 102, or pursuant to Section 502 of the National 

Security fct of 1947, or to Section 106 of the Supplemental 

Appropriations Act, 1985 (P. U 99-88) . 

" (b) Ndthing in this section precludes — 

"(1) adninlstration, by the Micaraguan fMnniUrian 
Assistwx Office est^ltahed by Btecutive Order U53 q, of the 
program of hmaniUrian assistance to the Nicaraguan dwocratlc 
resistance provided for in the Suppleaental Appropriations Act, 
1985, or 

"(2) activities of the Departmnt of SUte to solicit nch 
huonitarian assistance for the Nicaraguan denocratie resistance." 



V 45jSO 



722 



UNCIASSIFIED '"" 



FREEDOM MCTHORK 
HPUt IBCUSa 

rSHt SC8PIM0X6UN 

€0:84322863 



228858 CSSr CH k 

TOj MR. ROBERT UIOOH . \^^ 

RHO MR. COLBLO COCKRELU v ^ 

CREDIT SUISSE BRNIf --?\J\. 

SEHEUfl. SHIT:ERL8H0 V^ 

FROM! RICHBRO R. MILLER 

INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS COHHUHICATIONS 
1323 NEM HAMPSHIRE BUE. NH 
HRSHIN6T0N. O.C. 26636 

DATE: NOUEHBER 19. 1963 

REF: IBRAHIM 0L-HRSOUOI 

THIS CABLE IS TO INFORM VOU THAT IBRAHIM AL-H8S0U0I OR 
QNVONE PR0P0RTIN6 TO BE I6RAHIH OL-HRSOUOI HAS NO 
AUTHORITY TO ACT IH AHV MATTER AS AH A6ENT OF OR 
ON BEHALF OF INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS COHHUHICATIONS 
BNO/OR RICHARD R. MILLER ITS PRESIDEHT. 

BEST REBAROS 
RICHARD R. MILLER 
PRESnENT 

22863A CSSI CH 



oee2.2 

U^ld^BS 16441 



Declassified/Released nn lAfcO OS 
under provisions ol EO 12336 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 








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UNCLASSIFIED 



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CHRONOLOGICAL EVENT CHECKLIST 



February :!-:8, 1985 



March 1, 198S 



Event 

Send resource book on the Contadora process 
process to congressmen, media outlets, private 
organizations and individuals Interested in 
Nicaragua. 

FDN to select articulate freedom fighters with 
proven combat records and to make them available 
for contact with U.S. media representatives. 

Prepare list of publicly and privately 
expressed Congressional objections to voting 
for the aid. 



Hesponsibility 

Statc/LPD 
(Miller) 



NSC (North) 



White House 
State/B 



Prepare themes for approaches to Congressmen 
based on overall listed perceptions which will 
directly attack the objections listed above. 

Assign U.S. intelligence agencies to research, 
report, and clear for public release Sandinista 
military actions violating Geneva Convention/ 
civilized standards of warfare. 



NSC (North) 



NSC (North) 
(Raymond) 







Prepare list of key Congressmen interested In 
Nicaragua and voting record. 

Contract a paper on why Nicaraguans flee their 
country (due March IS) . 

Declassify Nicaragua's Development as a 
Marxist-Leninist State by Linn Jacobowitz 
Poulsen for publication as State Department 
document. 

Encourage U.S. media reporters to meet 
individual FDN fighters with proven combat 
records and media appeal. 

Contact internal eyewitnesses/victijns to 
testify before Congress about their abortive 
attempts to deal w^tjinVMifSi 
March 15) . 




White Bouse 
State/B 



State/LPD 
(Reich) 



State/LPD 
(Jacobowitz) 



NSC (North) 



NSC (North) 



13- 



727 




March 1-^8, 198S 

•Event Responsibility 

WH/I«gialative Affairs, State/H and ARA State/B (Ball) 

complete list of key Congressmen interested HB/IA 

in Nicoragya. State/ARA (Fox) 

Provide State/R with a list of Nicaraguan NSC (North) 
emigres and masked freedom fighters to serve State/ARA 
as potential witnesses to testify before (Michel) 

hearings on aid to Nicaraguan freedom fighters 
(due March 15) . 



Request Bernard Nietschmann to update prior 
paper on suppression of Indians by FSLN (to 
be published and distributed by March 25) . 

Nicaraguan internal opposition and resistance 
announced unity on goals and principals 
(March 2, San Jose). 



State/LPD 



State/LPD 
(Miller) 
NSC (North) 






arc..- 
.^-» ... 



Request that Zbigniew Brzezinski write a 
geopolitical paper which points out 
geopoliticalconsequences of Communist 
domination of Nicaragua (paper due March 20) . 

Briefings on Nicaragua for key Congressional 
members and staffers. North on NU aggression 
and external involvement, Burghardt on 
diplomatic situation. 

Intelligence briefing for White Bouse 
Administration and senior staff by CIA 
(Vickers, Room 208, OEOB, 30 minutes). 

Supervise preparation and assignment of 
articles directed to special interest groups at 
rate of one per week beginning March 4 (exas^les: 
article on Nicaraguan educational system for NEA, 
article by retired military for Retired Officers 
Association, etc.). 

Assign agencies to draft one op-ed piece per 

week for signature by Administration officials, 

Specify themes for the op-eds and retain final 
editorial rights. 

Conduct public opinion poll of America 
attitudes toward Sandinistas, freedom fighters. 

National Press Club news conference for FDN 
commanders Bermudez, Tigrillo, Mike Lima 
(March 5) (follow-on Congressional visits 



State/LPD 
(Reich) 
NSC (Menges) 



NSC (North) 

(Burghardt) 



NSC (North) 



State/LPD 



NSC (Menges) 



1375 



WB (Rollins) 



State/LPD 
(Gomez) 

(Kuvk»r><l»1 1 \ 



728 



5.. ■'•1' ■ •;; ■ \ ' •■ ' i- -"^ 5 v 



March 9-15. 1985 



Event 



Responsibility 



Martha Lida Murillo (9 yr old atrocity 
victim) visit to Washington — media interviews, 
Congressional visits (March 6-8) . 

Publish updated 'Green Boo)c;" distribute 
personally to Congressmen, media outlets, 
private organizations, and individuals 
interested in Nicaragua. 
Pass to Lew Lehman. 

State/LPD and HH Media Relations prepare a 
list of key mediaoutlets interested in 
Central American issues, including newspapers, 
radio, and TV stations (including SIN). Where 
possible identify specific editors, commentators, 
tal)c shows, and columnists. 

NSC update tal)iing points on aid to Nicaraguan 
freedom fighters. 

Briefings in OEOB for members /Senators: 
Shultz, McFarlane, Gorman, and Shlaudeman to 
brief L«hman (requires General Gorman to be 
placed on contract) . 

Call/visit newspaper editorial boards and 
give them bac)cground on the Nicaraguan 
freedom fighters. 

Results due on public opinion survey to see 
what turns Americans against Sandinistas 
(March 13). 

Production and distribution of La Presa 
chronology of FSLN harassment. 



State/LPD 

(Gomez) 

(Kuy)(endall) 

State/H (Ball) 
WH/LA 
State/ARA (Fox) 



NSC (North) 
State/ARA 

(Michel) 



NSC (North) 



NSC (North) 
(Lehman) 



State/LPD 

WB/PA 

NSC (North) 

NSC (Binckley) 



State/LPD 



§1 




729 






March 16-22, 1985 



^ 

^ 

-O 



l^i£I± Responsibility 

Review and restate themese based on results of NSC (North) 
public opinion poll. 

Release paper on Nicaraguan media manipulation. Statc/X^D 

Joachin Maitre (East German defector) — 
Congressional meetings, speeches, and 
op-ed pieces. 

Review and restate themes based on results of 
public opinion poll. 



State /LPO 
(Xuy)iendall) 



Presidential drop-by at briefing for American 
evangelicals on MX and Nicaraguan resistance. 

Congressional hearings (for Relations/Affairs) 
and testimony by Nicaraguan emigres and 
atrocity victims. 

State/LPD distributed paper on why Nicaraguans 
flee their country. 

Prepare document on Nicaraguan narcotics 
involvement. 

Publish and distribute as State Department 
document Nicaragua's Development as Marxist- 
I.enini»t State bv Linn Poulsgn. 

Distribute paper on geopolitical consequences 
of Communist domination of Nicaragua. 

SSCI CODEL Boren^Rockefeller, McConnell, 
and NilsonJUH^^BHIfor meetings with 
resistance (March 15-19) . 

Rev. Vallardo Antonio Santeliz (Pentecostal 
Minister atrocity victiia) — Congressional/ 
media meetings (March 15-16) . 






(Reich) 
NSC (North) 
(Raymond) 

WH/OPL (Reilly) 
NSC (North) 

WR/LA 

NSC (North) 
(Liehman) 

State/LPD 



Justice 
(Mullen) 



State/LPD 
(Reich) 



State/LPD 



NSC (North) 
(Lelunan) 



State/LPD 

(Xuy)cendall) 

(Gomez) 



\?.M\ 



730 






March 23-31, 19B5 



Event 

Pedro Juaquin Chnerio (Editor La Prcnsa ) 
U.S. ■edia/speaking tour (March 2S-April 3) 

Presidential breakfasts, lunches, and WHSR 
meetings with key Congressional leaders 
(March 24 through vote) . 

Distribute Bernard Nietschnann paper on 
suppression of Indians by FSLN. 

Antonio Farach (Former FSLN Intelligence 
Officer) — media and Congressional meetings 
regarding Sandinista espionage, intelligence 
activities. 

Release DEA paper on Nicaraguan drug 
involvement. 



Responsibility 

State/LPD 
(Miller/Gomez) 



State/LPD 



Republican 
Study 

Committee 



Justice (Mullen) 
NSC (North) 









J38i 



731 






m^ULh%j^hl iLi 



April 1-7, 1985 



Event 



Second round of SFRC hearings on Soviet 
build-up in region (Helms) Cprior to recess). 

CODEL visits during recess (April 4-14). 
Nicaragusn refugee canps in Honduras and 
Costa Rica (include vi sit to freedo m fighter 
base canp and hospital] 



Kesponsibiltty 
Statc/B 



NSC (North) 
(Lehman) 



CODEL visit during recess (April 4-14) vith NSC (North) 

regional leaders of Central America. Regional (Lehman) 

leaders convey importance of resistance fighters 
in NU. 

Administration spokesman on network shows 
regarding Soviet, Cuban, East German, and 
Libyan, Iranian connection with Sandinista. 



C5i 




J38: 



732 







April 8-14, 1985 (During recess) 



gv«nt Responsibility 

25 Central American spokesmen arrive in Miani Abranoff 
for briefing before departing to visit 
Congressional districts. Along with national 
television comnercial campaign in 45 media 
markets. 

Targeted telephone campaign begins in 120 
Congressional districts. CITIZENS FOR AMERICA 
district activists organixc phone-tree to targeted 
Congressional offices encouraging them to vote for 
aid to the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. 

Lev Lehman speaking tour of major O.S. cities. 

Telephone campaign. 

Central American spokesmen conduct rallies 
throughout the country in conjunction with 
CITIZENS FOR AMERICA activists. Major rally 
in the Orange Bowl in Miami, Florida, attended 
by President Reagan and important Administration 
figures. 

Nationally coordinated sermons about aid to 
the freedom fighters are conducted (April 14) . 




138: 



733 






April lS-21, 1985 



Event Kcsponsibility 

Presidential report to Congress on reasons NSC 
for releasing funds to freedom fighters State 

(April IS) . 

Central American spokesinen visit Congressional Abranoff 
offices on Capitol Hill (April 16). 

Washington conference 'Central America: NSC 

Resistance or Surrender* (Presidential Abramoff 

drop-by?) (April 17). 

Vote in the U.S. Congress on aid to the 
Micaraguan freedom fighters (April 18) . 







734 



1 






Karch 15, 1985 



CHRONOLOGICAL EVENT CHECKLIST 



February 21-28, 1V65 (completed) 

Event Responsibility 

Send resource booV on the Contadora process State/LPD 
process to congressmen, media outlets, private (Miller) 
organizations and individuals interested in 
Nicaragua . 

FDN to select articulate freedom fighters with NSC (North) 
proven combat records and to rea)ce them available 
for contact with U.S. media representatives. 

Assign U.S. intelligence agencies to research, NSC (North) 
report, and clear for public release Sandinista (Raymond) 
military actions violating Geneva Convention/ 
civilized standards of warfare. 

Prepare themes for approaches to Congressmen NSC (North) 
based on overall listed perceptions which will 
directly attac)c the objections listed above. 

Declassify Nicaragua's Development as a State/LPD 

Marxist-Leninist State by Linn Jacobowitz (Jacobowitz) 
Poulsen for publication as State Department 
document (clearance request w/Casey) . 

Encourage U.S. media reporters to meet NSC (North) 

individual FDN fighters with proven combat State/LPD 
records and media appeal. (Gomez) 

Contact internal eyewitnesses/victims to NSC (North) 

testify before Congress about their abortive 
attetripts to deal with the FSLN (deadline 
March 15) . 



Partially DeclassilieJ/Released onjfij^i^g \ j ^^ 1 Q r ■ 

under provisions of E '.Tih'a i O O 

by K Johnson. National Secunt/ Council 




735 




March 1-8, 1985 



O 



Prepare list. of publicly and privately 
expressed Congressional objections to aiding 
resistance and voting record on the issue. 

Provide State/H with a list of Nicaraguan 
emigres and freedom fighters to serve as 
potential witnesses to testify before 
hearings on aid to Nicaraguan freedom fighters 
(due March 15) . 

Request Bernard Nietschmann to update prior 
paper on suppression of Indians by FSLN (to 
be published and distributed by March 25) . 

Nicaraguan internal opposition and resistance 
announce unity on goals and principals 
(March 2, San Jose) (completed). 

Request that Zbigniew BrzezinsJci write a 
geopolitical paper which points out 
geopoliticalconseguences of Communist 
domination of Nicaragua (paper due March 20) . 

Briefings on Nicaragua for )cey Congressional 
mer\b«>rs and staffers. North on NU aggression 
and external involvement, Burghardt on 
diplomatic situation. 

Supervise preparation and assignment of 
articles directed to special interest groups at 
rate of one per week beginning March' 18 (examples: 
article on Nicaraguan educational system for NEA, 
article by retired military for Retired Officers 
Association, etc.). 



Responsibility 

WH/LA 
State/H 



NSC (North) 
State /ARA 

(Michel) 
State/LPD 

(Reich) 

State/LPD 



State/LPD 
(Miller) 
NSC (North) 

NSC (Kenges) 



NSC (North) 

(Burghardt) 



State/LPD 



fcefe. 






Assign agencies to draft one op-ed piece per 
wee)i for signature by Administration officials. 
Specify themes for the op-eds and retain final 
editorial rights. 

Conduct public opinion poll of America 
attitudes toward Sandinistas, freedom fighters. 

National Press Club news conference for FDN 
cor.T.anders Bermudez, Tigrillo, Mi)^e Lima 

(March 5) (follow-on Congressional visits 

(March 6) (completed) . 

Martha Lida Murillo (9 yr old atrocity 
victim) visit to Washington--media interviews, 
Congressional visits, possible photo-op 
with First Lady (March 6-8) (completed) . 



NSC (Menoes) 



WH (Rollins) 



State/LPD 

(Gonez) 

(Kuykendall) 

1 35o 

State/LPD 
(Gomez) 
(Kuykendall) 
(WH/OPL) 



736 



i 'i A 



sli^lHuiJai 1^^ 



March 9-15, 1985 



Event 



^ 
^ 

«- 



o--^-^ 
^^^ 



WH/Legislative Affairs, State/H and ARA 
complete list of key Congressmen interested 
in Nicaragua. 



Intelligence briefing for White House 
Administration and senior staff by CIA 
(Vickers, Room 208, OEOB , 30 minutes). 

Brief Presidential meeting with Lew Lehman 
and other leaders of the influence groups 
working on MX and resistance funding. 



Responsibility 

State/H(Ball/Fox) 
WH/LA 
State/ARA 
(Michel/Holwill) 

'NSC (North) 



NSC (Raymond) 
(North) 



State/LPD and WH Media Relations prepare a 
list of key mediaoutlets interested in 
Central American issues, including newspapers, 
radio, and TV stations (including SIN) , Where 
possible identify specific editors, commentators, 
talk shows, and columnists. 

NSC update talking points on aid to Nicaraguan 
freedom fighters. 

Briefings in OEOB for members/Senators: 
Shultz, McFarlane, Gorman, and Shlaudeman to 
brief Lehman (requires General Gorman to be 
placed on contract) . 

Call/visit newspaper editorial boards and 
give them background on the Nicaraguen 
freedom fighters. 

Brief OAS members in Washington and 
abroad on second term goals in Central 
America. Explore possible OAS action 
against Nicaragua. 

Results due on public opinion survey to see 
what turns Americans against Sandinistas 
(March 13) . 

VP at Brazilian inauguration. Discuss 
possible OAS initiative on Nicaragua with 
Core Four, Colombia, Brazil, and Unaouay 
(March 15 and 16) . 

Production and distribution of La Prensa 
chronology of FSLN harassment. 

Prepare a "Dear Colleagues" Itr for signature 
by a responsible Democrat which counsels 
against "negotiating" with thrt FSLN. 



NSC (North) 
State/LPD 

(Miller) 



NSC (North) 



NSC (North) 
(LehjT.an) 



State/LPD(Reich) 
WH/PA 
NSC (North) 

OAS{Middendorf) 
NSC (Menges) 
StatTe/LPD (Reich) 



NSC (Hinckley) 
VP (Hughes) 

135J 

State/LPD 

(Reich) 

NSC (Lehman) 



737 



j.,^^ 



i^"' -. V t^ 



Karch 16-22. 1985 



Event 



Joachire Maitre--Congressional meetings, 
speeches, and op-ed pieces. 

Review and restate themes based on results of 
public opinion poll. 



Presidential drop-by at briefing for American 
evangelicals on KX and Nicaraguan resistance. 

Congressional hearings (Foreign Relations/ 
Affairs) and testimony by Nicaraguan emigres 
and atrocity victims. 

Prepare document on Nicaraguan narcotics 
involvement. 

SSCI CODELBorenjRocke feller, iJMcConnell, 
and Wilson ^■■■■1 for meetW.ngs with 
resistance (March 15-19), 

VP in Honduras; meeting with Pres Suazo 
(March 16) . 

Argentine state visit; President emphasize 
need for OAS case (March 19) . 

Pastora, Calero, and Cruz meeting with 
Congressional Hispanic Caucus (Jorge Mas) 
(March 20) (try for weeJc later). 



Responsibility 

State/LPD 
(Kuykendall) 

State/LPD 
(Reich) 
NSC (North) 
(Raymond) 

WH/OPL (Reilly) 
NSC (North) 

WH/LA 

NSC (North) 
(Le>jnan) 

Justice 
(Mullen) 

NSC (North) 
(Lehman) 



VP (Hughes) 
WH (Elliott) 



?*;; 



^"i^Lhi^isi^lCU 



\3C,(i 



738 



March 23-31, 1985 



Event Responsibility 

Rev. Vallardo Antonio Santeliz (Pentecostal State/LPD 

Minister atrocity victim) --Congressional/ (Xuykendall) 

media meetings (March 22-23). * (Gomez) 

McFarlane, Friedersdorf meeting with )cey WH/LA 

Congressional leadership (Rm 208 *or WHSR) to NSC (Lehman) 

brief situation and proposed course of (North) 
action (March 23-25) . 



Presidential brealcfasts, lunches, and WHSR 
meetings with Key Congressional leaders 
(Kerch 2A through vote) . 

Pedro Juaquin Chairorro (Editor La Prensa ) 
U.S. media/spea)ting tour (March 25-April 3) 

President to meet in Room 450 w/"Spirit of 
Freedom," concerned citizens for Democracy. 
Representatives from 8 countries (180) 
(March 25) . 



State/LPD 
(Miller/Gomez) 



Evert near Nicaraguan Eriassy (March 25) . 

Release of DOD/State paper on Soviet/Cuban/ 
Nicaraguan intentions in the Caribbean; 
possible WH baclcgrounder . 

Distribute Bernard Nietschmann paper on 
suppression of Indians by FSLN. 

Antonio Farach (Former FSLN Intelligence 
Of ficer) --media and Congressional meetings 
regarding Sandinista espionage, intelligence 
activities. 



State/LPD(Reich) 
WH/PA (Sims) 



State/LPD 



Republican 

Study 

Committee 



Invite President's Duarte, Monge, Suazo, 
and Barletta to a very private meeting in 
Texas with y.ey Congressional leaders so that 
CCTEL can hear unvarnished concerns re 
Sandinistas and Democratic leaders' support 
for the FDN. 



(Kuy)(endall) 
NSC (North) 



Release paper on Nicaraguan media manipulation. State/LPD 

Publish and distribute as State Department State/LPD 

document Nicaragua's Development as Marxist- (Reich) 
Leninist State by Linn Poulsen. 



739 



Ol^llHiyinLki 



April \'l , 1985 



Event Fesponsibilit 

Ai:i ; Sponsor media events w/print and 
television media for Central America 
resistance leaders (April 1-7) . 

European Parlimentary delegation to National Tor- 

meet with President Reagan (April 2) . Foundation 

WH/OPL (Feill 

Visit by Colombian President Betancur 
(April 3-4); possible Joint Session speech. 

Presidential television address on situation WWSpeechwrite 
in Central America (April 4). (Elliott) 

Second round of SFRC hearings on Soviet State/H 

build-up in region (Helms) (prior to recess) . 

CODEL visits during recess (April 4-14) . NSC (North) 

Nicaragijan refugee cajnps in Honduras and (Lehir.an) 

Costa Pica (include vi sit to freedom fighter 
base camp and hospital] 

CODEL visit during recess (April 4-14) with NSC (North) 
regional leaders of Central America. Regional (Lehir.an) 
leaders convey importance of resistance fighters 
in NU. 

Administration and prominent non-OSG WH/PA (Sims) 

spokesman on netvor)c shows regarding Soviet, WH (Buchanan) 

Cuban, East German, and Libyan, Iranian State/LPD 
connection with Sandinistas. 

^,jL Publish updated 'Green Boo)i;" distribute State/LPD (Reic 

Mn^. personally to Congressmen, media outlets, WH/LA 

tiJU,. private organizations, and individuals State/H (Fox) 

mam,.:: interested in Nicaragua. Pass to Lew 

€^,V Lehrr.an and other interested groups. 

_~^, ;;-; Distribute paper on geopolitical consequences State/LPD 
*^ V of Ccr.Tur.ist domination of Nicaraoua. 

CStK-^' Release DEA paper on Nicaraguan drug Justice (V.ul le 

"wgB?F> involvement. NSC (North) 

^mamJi Presidential meeting with AAA. NSC (North) 

^^ 13G? 



740 



, > '; •.?,(* £*■<,- «U? 3 -?. i*,^'Ji* 



April e-14, 1985 (During recess) 



Event Responsibility 

25 Central American spokesmen arrive in Miami CFA (Abramoff) 
for briefing before departing to'visit 
Congressional districts. Along with national 
television comnercial campaign in 45 media 
markets . 

Targeted telephone campaign begins in 120 CFA (Abramoff) 
Congressional districts. CITIZENS FOR AMERICA 
district activists organize phone-tree to targeted 
Congressional offices encouraging them to vote for 
aid to the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. 

Lew Lehrman speaking tour of major U.S. cities. CFA 

Telephone campaign. 

Central Arerican spokesmen conduct rallies CFA 
throughout the country in conjunction with 
CITIZENS FOR AKERICA activists (starting 
April 12) . 

Nationally coordinated sermons about aid to 
the freedom fighters are conducted (April 14) . 

Naval Institute Seminar in Newport, RI 
(Lugar, McFarlane [April 12]). 




136o 



741 






April lS-21, .1985 



Event Responsibility 

Nicaraguan Refugee Fund (NRF) dinner, State/LPD 

Washington, DC; President as Guest of (Miller) 

Honor (April 15) . NSC (Ra>Tnond) 

Presidential report to Congress on reasons NSC 

for releasing funds to freedom fighters State 

(April 15) . 

AAA available to Washington press. State/LPD 

(Gomez) 

Major rally in the Orange Bowl in Miami, Cuban American 

Florida, attended by President Reagan and National 

important Administration figures Foundation 
(April 16). 

Central American spd^esmen visit Congressional Ai>ramoff 
offices on Capitol Hill (April 16) . 

SFRC Nicaraguan issues, open hearing 
(April 16-17) . 

Washington conference 'Central America: NSC 

Resistance or Surrender' (Presidential Abramoff 

drop-by?) (April 17) . 

Barnes' subcommittee hearing on Nicaragua; 
Kotley, public witnesses (April 18) 
(2170 Rayburn, 2:00 p.m.). 

Presidential Radio Address (April 20). WK (Elliott) 



HiblHdiiSs'st^ 



13C\ 



742 






April 22-2* 



1955 



Event 



Responsibility 



House Appropriations (Obey subcommittee) 
intelligence brief on Central America/ 
Latin America (April 23) . 

Obey subcoiT-jnittee (panel on Central America) 
public witnesses (a .m. ) /Administration 
witnesses (p.m.) (April 24). 

Presidential calls to )?ey members. 



WH (Friedersdorf) 
NSC (Lehman) 




13G.1 



743 



April 30-, 1985- 






MV 



10 



Event 



Responsibility 



Vote in the U.S. Congress on aid to the 
Nicaraguan freedom fighters (April 30) . 







J3G. 



744 




CCVFIDENTIAL 



^C A^^' 



March 20, 1985 



CHRONOLOGICAL EVENT CHECKLIST 



rebruary 21-26, 1985 (completed) 



Event 

Send resource booV on the Contadora process 
process to congressmen, media outlets, private 
organizations and individuals interested in 
Nicaragua . 

FDN to select articulate freedom fighters with 
proven comhat records and to make them available 
for contact with U.S. media representatives. 



Responsibi lity 

State/LPD 
(Miller) 



NSC (North) 



Assign U.S. intelligence agencies to research, NSC (North) 
report, and clear for public release Sandinista (Raymond) 
military actions violating Geneva Convention/ 
civilized standards of warfare. 



Prepare themes for approaches to Congressmen 
based on overall listed perceptions which will 
directly attac)c the objections listed above. 

Encourage U.S. media reporters to meet 
individual FDN fighters with proven combat 
records and media appeal. 

Contact internal eyewitnesses/victims to 
testify before Congress about their abortive 
attempts to deal with the FSLN (deadline 
March 15) . 



NSC (North) 



NSC (North) 

State/LPD 

(Gomez) 

NSC (North) 



Partially Oeclasatied/Released on /O^^ gfl 
under promsions of E 12356 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 



SHQ-) 



13G8 



CONFIDENTIAL 




CONFIDENTIAL 



745 



Event 



April ??-29, 1985 



Proposed visit to Washington by 
Presidents Monge, Duarte, and Suazo. 

Presidential calls to Vey members. 



f5a:ior rally in the Orange Bowl in Miaini, 
Florida, attended by President Reagan and 
important Administration figures 
(April 28) . 



Responsibi lity 



NSC (North) 
S/ARA (Michel) 

WH (Friedersdorf ) 
NSC (Lehman) 

Cuban American 

National 

Foundation 



April 30, 1985 

Proposed Congressional vote; President 
leaves for Europe. 



CONFIDENTIAL 



mmm 



J3G, 



746 



co?;f:devt:ai 




Karch 1-8, 1985 



Event 



Prepare list of publicly and privately 
expressed Congressional objections to aiding 
resistance and voting record on the issue. 

Provide State/H with a list of Nicaraguan 
emigres and freedom fighters to serve as 
potential witnesses to testify before 
hearings on aid to Nicaraguan freedom fighters 
(due March 15) . 

Nicaraguan internal opposition and resistance 
announce unity on goals and principals 
(March 2, San Jose) (completed). 

Request that Zbigniew Brzezinsl^i write a 
geopolitical paper which points out 
geopoliticalconsequences of ConuBunist 
domination of Nicaragua (paper due March 20) . 

Briefings on Nicaragua for )cey Congressional 
members and staffers. North on NU aggression 
and external involvement, Burghardt on 

diplomatic situation. 

Supervise preparation and assigninent of 
articles directed to special interest groups at 
rate of one per wee)c beginning March 18 (examples; 
article on Nicaraguan educational system for NEA, 
article by retired military for Retired Officers 
Association, etc.). 

Assign agencies to draft one op-ed piece per 
wee)c for signature by Administration officials. 
Specify themes for the op-cds and retain final 
editorial rights. 

Conduct public opinion poll of America 
attitudes toward Sandinistas, freedom fighters. 

National Press Club news conference for FDN 
comr'.anders Bermudez, Tigrillo, Mi)ie Lima 
(March 5) (follow-on Congressional visits 
(March 6) (completed) . 

Martha Lida Murillo (9 yr old atrocity 
victim) visit to Washington--media interviews, 
Congressional visits, possible photo-op 
with First Lady (March 6-8) (completed) 



Responsibility 

WH/LA 
State/H 



NSC (North) 
State/ARA 

(Michel) 
State/LPD 

(Reich) 

State/LPD 
(Miller) 
NSC (North) 

NSC (Menges) 



NSC (North) 

(Burghardt) 



CONFIDENTIAL 



WiSffD 



State/LPD 



NSC (Menges) 



WH (Rollins) 



State/LPD 

(Gomez) 

(Kuy)(endall) 



State/LPD 
(Gomez) 
(KuyVendall) 
(WH/OPL) 



747 



UMiMiFIED 



CONFIDENTIW, 



March 9-15, 1985 

Event 

WH/Legislative Affairs, State/H and ARA 
complete list of key Congressmen interested 
in Nicaragua. 



Intelligence briefing for White House 
Administration and senior staff by CIA 
(Vickers, Room 208, OEOB, 30 minutes). 

Brief Presidential meeting with tew Lehrman 
and other leaders of the influence groups 
working on MX and resistance funding. 

State/LPD and WH Media Relations prepare a 
list of key mediaoutlets interested in 
Central American issues, including newspapers, 
radio, and TV stations (including SIN) . Where 
possible identify specific editors, commentators, 
talk shows, and columnists. 

NSC update talking points on aid to Kicaraguan 
freedom fighters. 

Briefings in OEOB for members/Senators: 
Shultz, McFarlane, Gorman, and Shlaudeman to 
brief Lehnan (requires General Gorman to be 
placed on contract) . 

Call/visit newspaper editorial boards and 
give there background on the Nicaraguan 
freedom fighters. 

Brief OAS members in Washington and 
abroad on second tern goals in Central 
America. Explore possible OAS action 
against Nicaragua. 

VP at Brazilian inauguration. Discuss 
possible OAS initiative on Nicaragua with 
Core Four, Colombia, Brazil, and Uruguay 
(March 15 and 16) . 

Prepare a 'Dear Colleagues" Itr for signature 
by a responsible Democrat which counsels 
against "negotiating* with the FSLN. 



Responsibility 

State/H(Ball/Fox) 
WH/LA 
State/ARA 
(Michel/Holwill) 

NSC (North) 



NSC (Raymond) 
(North) 



NSC (North) 
State/LPD ' 

(Miller) 



NSC (North) 



NSC (North) 
(Lehman) 



State/LPD (Reich) 
WH/PA 
NSC (North) 

OAS(Middendorf) 
NSC (Menges) 
State/LPD(Reich) 



VP (Hughes) 



NSC (Lehn-.an) 



CONFIDENTIAL 



ItNWIifB 



137i' 



748 



C0ST1&E-X7IAL 






Karch 16-22, 158S 



Event 

Results due on public opinion survey to see 
what turns Americans against Sandinistas 
(March 20) . 

Joachiir Maitre--Congressional meetings, 
speeches, and op-ed pieces. 

Review and restate themes based on results of 
public opinion poll. 



Presidential drop-by at briefing for American 
evangelicals on MX and Nicaraguan resistance. 

Congressional hearings (Foreign Relations/ 
Affairs) and testimony by Nicaraguan emigres 
and atrocity victims. 

Prepare document on Nicaraguan narcotics 
involvement . 

SSCl CODEL Borer^Rockefeller, McConnell, 
and Wilson ^BIHVHl^or meetings with 
resistance (March 15-19) . 

VP in Honduras; meeting with Pres Suazo 
(Karch 16) . 

Argentine state visit: President emphasize 
need for OAS case (March 19) . 

Pastora and Calero meeting with 
Congressional Hispanic Caucus (Jorge Mas) 
(March 20) . 

Production and distribution of La Prensa 
chronology of FSLN harassment. 



Responsibi lity 
NSC (Hincl^ley) 

State/LPD <^ 
(Kuy)(endall) 

State/LPD 
(Reich) 
NSC (North) 
(Raymond) 

WH/OPL (Reilly) 
NSC (North) 

WH/LA 

NSC (North) 

(Lehnan) 

Justice 
(Mullen) 

NSC (North) W 
(Lehiman) 

VP (Hughes) 

WH (Elliott) 



State/LPD / 
(Reich) 



CONFIDENTIAL 




i:v 



749 




ros-riC£NT:Al 
March 23-31. 1985 
Event 



Besponsibility 

State/LPD 

(Xuykendall) 

(Gomez) 

WH/LA 

NSC (Lehman) 
(Korth) 



State/LPD 
(Miller/Gomez) 



Rev. Vallardo Antonio Santeliz (Pentecostal 
Minister atrocity victim) --Congressional/ 
media meetings (March 22-23). 

McFarlane, Friedersdorf meeting with )iey 
Congressional leadership (Rm 208 or WHSR) to 
brief situation and proposed course of 
action (March 23-25) . 

Presidential brea)cfasts, lunches, and WHSR 
meetings with )(ey Congressional leaders 
(March 24 through vote) . 

Pedro Juaquin Chamorro (Editor LaPrensa) 
U.S. media/speaking tour (March 25-April 3) 

President to meet in Room 450 w/*Spirit of 
Freedom,' concerned citizens for Democracy. 
Representatives from 8 countries (180) 
(March 25) . 

Release of DOD/State paper on Soviet/Cuban/ 
Nicaraguan intentions in the Caribbean; 
possible WH backgrounder. 

Distribute Bernard Kietsc)unann paper on 
suppression of Indians by FSLN. 

Antonio Farach (Former FSLN Intelligence 
Officer) --media and Congressional meetings 
regarding Sandinista espionage, intelligence 
activities. 

Invite President's Duartc, Mongc, Suazo, 
and Barletta to a very private meeting in 
Texas with )ccy Congressional leaders so that 
CODEL can hear unvarnished concerns re 
Sandinistas and Democratic leaders* support 
for the FDN. 

Release paper on Nicaraguan media manipulation. State/LPD 



/ 



State/LPD (Reich) 
WH/PA (Sims) 



State/LPD 



Republican 

Study 

Committee 



(Kuy)cendall) 
NSC (North) 



Publish and distribute as State Department 
document Nicaragua's Development as Marxist- 
Leninist State by Linn Poulsen. 

Declassify Nicaragua's Development as a 
Marxist-Leninist State by Linn Jacobowitz 
Poulsen for publication as State Department 
document (clearance request w/Casey) 
CONFIDENTIAL 



State/LPD 
(Reich) 



State/LPD 
(Blacken) 






1372 



750 



onmilFIED 



April i-7. 1985 
Event 



ftcquett Bernard Nictsc>unann to update prior 
paper on suppression of Indians by rSLN (to 
be published and distributed by April 1). 

A£I: Sponsor nedia event* w/print and 
television media for Central America 
resistance leaders (April 1-7) . 

European Parlireentary delegation to 
ineet with President Reagan (April 2). 



Visit by Colombian President Betancur 
(April 3-4) ; possible Joint Session speech 
by Betancur. 

Proposed Presidential television address 
on Nicaragua (April 4) . 



Second round of SFRC hearings on Soviet 
build-up in region (Helms) (prior to recess). 

CODEL visits during recess (April 4-14). 
Nicaraguan refugee camps in Honduras and 
Costa Rica (include vi sit to freedom fighter 
base camp and hospital] 

CODEL visit during recess (April 4-14) with 
regional leaders of Central America. Regional 
leaders convey importance of resistance fighters 
in NU. 

Administration and prominent non-USG 
spo)(esman on networ)i shows regarding Soviet, 
Cuban, East German, and Libyan, Iranian 
connection with Sandinistas. 

Publish updated 'Green Booki* distribute 
personally to Congressmen, media outlets, 
private organizations, and individuals 
interested in Nicaragua. Pass to Lev 
Lehrman and other interested groups. 

Distribute paper on geopolitical consequences 
of Communist domination of Nicaragua. 

Release paper on Nicaraguan drug 
involvement. 

CONFIDENTIAL 



Responsibility 

Statc/LPD 
(Blac)ien) 



y 



State/LPD 
(Reich) 
WH/OPL (Reilly) 

National Forum ^ 
Foundation 
WH/OPL (Reilly) 



WHSpeechwr iters 
(Elliottl 
NSC (North) 

State/H 

NSC (North) y 
(Lehman) 



NSC (North) 
(Lehman) 



WH/PA (Sins) V 
WH (Buchanan) 
Statc/LPD 



State/LPD (Reich) 
WH/LA 
State/H (Fox) 



State/LPD 



State/LPD 
(Blac)ien) 
NSC (North) 



13- 



751 







CONFIDENTIAL 




fi 



April 8-14, 1985 (During recess) 



Event 



Responsibility 



25 Central American spokesmen arrive in Miami CFA (Abramoff) 
for briefing before departing to visit 
Congressional districts. Along with national 
television commercial campaign in 45 media 
markets . 

Targeted telephone campaign begins in 120 CFA (Abramoff) 
Congressional districts. CITIZENS FOR AMERICA 
district activists organize phone-tree to targeted 
Congressional offices encouraging them to vote for 
aid to the freedom fighters in Nicaragua. 

Lew Lehman speaking tour of major U.S. cities. CFA 

Telephone campaign. 

Central American spokesmen conduct rallies CFA 
throughout the country in conjunction with 
CITIZENS FOR AMERICA activists (starting 
April 12) . 

Nationally coordinated sermons about aid to 
the freedom fighters are conducted (April 14). 

Naval Institute Seminar in Newport, RI 
(Lugar, McFarlane (April 12]). 



137 1 



CONFIDENTIAL 




CONFIDEKTIAI 



April 15-21, 1985 



752 




Event 



Nicaraguan Refugee Fund (NRF) dinner, 
Washington, DC; President as Guest of 
Honor (April 15) . 

Presidential report to Congress on reasons 
for releasing funds to freedom fighters 
(April 15) . 

AAA available to Washington press. 



Central Ajnerican spolcesnen visit Congressional 
offices on Capitol Hill (April 16). 

SFRC Nicaraguan issues, open hearing 
(April 16-17). 

Washington conference "Central Ajnerica: 
Resistance or Surrender* (Presidential 
drop-by?) (April 17) . 

Barnes' subconunittee hearing on Nicaragua; 
Motley, public witnesses (April 18) 
(2170 Rayburn, 2:00 p.n.). 

Presidential Radio Address (April 20) . 



Responsibility 



State/LPD 


^ 


(Miller 


) 


NSC (Raymond) 


A 


NSC 




State 




State/LPD 


v^ 


(Gomez) 




Abramof f 


/ 



NSC \/ 

Abramof f 



WH (Elliott) 



CONFIDENTIAL 




137:') 



753 




COSFIDEKTIAL 



April 22-29, 198S 



Event 



Respontibility 



House Appropriations (Obey subcommittee) 
intelligence brief on Central America/ 
Latin America (April 23). 

Obey subcommittee (panel on Central America) 
public witnesses (a .m. ) /Administration 
witnesses (p.m.) (April 24). 

Major rally in the Orange Bowl in Miami, 
Florida, attended by President Reagan and 
important Administration figures 
(April 28) . 



Cuban American 
National 
Foundation 
Statc/LPD 

(Reich) 



Presidential calls to key members. 



KH (Friedersdorf) 
NSC (Lchir.an) 



137i 



CONFIDENTIAL 




754 



CONFIDENTIAL 



WAilFIED 



/V (. /0^-^e 



CONGRESSIONAL/PUBLIC MTAIRS /DIPLOMATIC ACTION PLAN 



Goal ; 

Congressional approval of aid to the Nicaraguan freedom 
fighters. 

Central Perceptions t 

Vote for U.S. aid to the freedom fighters is a vital 
national interest of the United States. 

U.S. history requires support to freedom fighters. 

U.S. troops will eventually be required if aid is not 
given now. 

Amount of aid is so siniscule that it hardly matters. 

FSLN are puppets of Soviets. 

Nicaragua will become a Soviet military base if not 
resisted. 

FSLN is racist and represses human rights. 

FSLN is involved in U.S. drug problem. 

FSLN linked to worldwide terrorism. 

FDN are freedom fighters. 

Failure to vote for U.S. aid to the freedom fighters 
Bust be seen as • political liability. . 

Partially Declassitied/Re'ease'] ml^ ^£6e i 
lapedimentS ; undet provisions oi E O 12355 

by K JoKnson. National Security Cjuncil 

-- Situational: 

Deadline: Vote in mid-April 1985. 
Possible partisan response in Bouse. 
Possible party-bolting in Senate. /'^ i , ,— . 



CONFIDENTIAL 
Declassify: OADR 




138: 



755 




CONFIDENTIAL 



Lack of polling data regarding which themes will 
cause Americans to share the Administration's 
concerns regarding Central America (Soviet 
military build-up. Communist state on the 
continent, drugs?) 



Perceptual ; 



Speculation that U.S. actions violate 
international law. 

Idea that U.S. actions preclude peaceful solutions 
in Central America. 

Belief that aid to the freedom fighters hurts 
"the moderates in Nicaragua.' 

Idea that U.S. is •immoral* in supporting a covert 
action. 

Idea that resistance cannot win. 



Assets: 



The President and his electoral mandate. 

Respected key Administration figures (Shultx, 
Weinberger, McFarlane, etc.) 

Supportive private sector organisations. 

Some supportive Congressmen. 

Historical U.S. policies. 

Afghan precedent. 

Cuban/Soviet threat. 

Some supportive media representatives. 

Bipartisan ConQission. 

Freedom fighters themselves. 



'smMmi^ DNIiLMdaifiLU 

mNFinFNTIAL 



138' 



756 




COHFIDEWTIAL 



Th«me8 regarding MiCT»quan threat ; 

Sandinista-led Nicaragua is beconing part of the Soviet 
empire. 

Soviet Bilitary build-up/connection. 

Unabated delivery of sophisticated offensive 
weapon*. 

CoB^letion of Punta Buete airbase allows 
surveillance of U.S. west coast naval bases. Base 
is large enough launch/recover all Soviet 
aircraft. Base threatens Panana Canal. 

Soviets constructing a Can Ranh Bay type facility 
at Bluefields on Atlantic coast (Congressional 
action resulted in loss of Can Ranh Bay— same can 
heppen with Bluefields) . 

Nicaraguan drug connection— exporting to U.S. 

Sandinista human rights violations: 

Press censorship 

No right of assembly/ freedom of speech 
Forced military conscription 
Persecution of religious groups 
Facade of private sector economy 
State-run unions 

Iranian/Libyan/PIO/Bulgarian/Bast German/North Korean 
connection with Sandinista government. 

Central American countries are fearful that U.S. will 
"back away* from supporting resistance and they will be 
consumed by their communist neighbor. 

Th— es regarding freedom fighters ; 

Nicaraguan resistance is fighting democracy's battle. 

FDN has offered to lay down arms if allowed to 
participate in a real democratic process. 

Central American democracies are supporting the 
resistance. 



COHriDEKTIAL m^niKKn-H 138 





757 






CONFIDENTIAL 



y -> Over 15,000 people fron all walk* of life have joined 

the Micarag'uan resistance forces. Includes all sectors 
of society: fanners, students, aerchants, vendors, 
canpesinos. 

y^-~ TW are the underdogs against over 120,000 Sandinistas 
supported by Soviets and Cubans. Leadership of FON is 
not pro-Somoza. They call thenselvcs "the Christian 
Guerrillas.* 

Thousands are joining resistance despite lack of 
resources because it represents the ideals of the 
Nicaraguan people and the original goals of the 
revolution against Somoza. 

Insurgents can fight and win a 'cheap* war, which is 
. very expensive for Soviets to counter. 

7 — Goal of U.S. support for the freedom fighters is to 
change Sandinista behavior. Ne have not advocated 
overthrowing the government. 

U.S. support for Contradora principals has not 
diminished — only way to achieve movement at negotiating 
table is through pressure. Without the resistance, 
there is no pressure on the Sandinistas. 

U.S. cannot afford to have the image of abandoning the 
cause of the freedcn fighters. Same is true for 
Afghanistan, part of American tradition to support 
those struggling for freedom against tyranny. 



1388 



CONFIDENTIAL 



yiibyjMf.itU 



■inFNTIAL 



758 



CONriDEKTlAL 





April 17, 19E5 
SENSITIVE 



CXLENDAB Or EVENTS 
REGARDING NICARACUAN RESISTANCE 



Event 



Responsibility 



April 17. 198S 

McFarlane (9:00-9:30 a.ni.) to meet with 
House Republicans Conference (chaired by 
Jack Kemp) (Motley 9:30-9:40 a.n). 

Meeting vith full Senate Appropriations 
Committee in Cabinet Room on Nicaragua 
(9:30-10:30 a.m.) (not firm). 

Barnes subcommittee hearing (Sol Linowitz, 
Tony Motley, Archbishop Rickey, Penn Xemble, 
and Congressman Courter, 311 Cannon, 
10:00 a.m.) . 

CFA Conference at Dirksen SOB, Rn (28 
"Central America: Resistance or Surrender 
(McFarlane) (12: 30-12:55 p.m.) . 

Phone calls to one or one on ones with 
Senators regarding Nicaragua (30 minutes) . 



Presidential meetings with members of 
Congress (3:30 and 4:45 p.m.). 



AAA available to Washington press. 

Director Casey and Deputy Secretary Dan 
with Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, 



Tentative meeting with various prominent 
Europeans who support the President's 
policies in Central America. Group would 
leave White Rouse for Capitol Hill and 
series of meetings there. 



Friedersdorf 



Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 

Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 



North 
Small 



Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 

Friedersdorf 
C . Lehman 
Ball 

Reich 

Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 

Reilly 
Raymond 



Calero and Cruz meet with Senate Policy 
Committee. 

Cruz attends CDM dinner at Hyatt. 



CONFIDENTIAL 
Declassify: OADR 




(JiWl£bmU 



lS9^ Declassitied/Released nn lO^^S P*' 
under provisions ot E 12356 
by K Johnson National Security Council 



SENSITIVE 



759 



UNtlitfiSIFIED 



COSriDENTlAL 



SENSITIVE 



Event 

April 18, 198^ 

Tentative breakfast with Senate 
Bipartisan leadership (Appropriations, 
Relations, Intelligence, Amed 
Services) in the Family Dining Rood 
regarding Nicaragua (April 18 or 19, 
8:30-9:30 p.m.) . 

Proposed Barnes' subconunittee hearings 
(Mary Knoll Sisters, 2172 Rayburn Bldg, 
10:00 a.m.) 

SAC/STEVENS subcommittee hearing on Joint 
Resolution of Approval: Ambassador Motley 
(tentative--morning) . 

Presidential remar)is during lunch at media 
relations briefing for targetted regional 
press on budget and Nicaragua in State 
Dining Room (noon) . 

SAC/FULL committee mar)Q-up of Joint Resolution 
of Approval (afternoon) . 



Tentative coclctails with 2-3 Senators 
in the President's residence 
(6:00-6:30 p.m.) . 

Proposed senior Administration officials, 
prominent U.S. private citizens, Nicaraguan 
Resistance leaders, to appear on networ)c 
morning tal)( shows (April 18-19 and 22-23). 



Responsibility 



Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 



Friedersdorf 
C . Lehman 
Ball 

Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 

Buchanaft ' 
Speakes 
Elliott 
Small 

Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 

Friedersdorf 
C . Lehman 
Ball 

Sins 
Small 
Reich 
Kalb 



Proposed closed door briefing to all 
Senators by Secretary Shultz and Bud 
McFarlsne in S-407. 



Cruz and Payan testify before Barnes' 

subcommittee. 

Proposed release of paper on Sandinista 
connections with Middle East terrorists and 
organizations. 

Press conference with four Commanders of FDN. 



CONFIDENTIAL 



UimFKI^i^Li) 



Friedersdorf 
C. Lehman 
Ball 
Morth/Michel 



Reich 



1300 

SENSITIVE 



760 




n r^^sT 



NATIONAL SCCuniTY COUNCIL 
watHiNaTOh DC ICMt 



Dcctnbcr 17, 1985 



Dear Mr. Darlington: 

In Bupporting the President's policy on Nicaragua, 
the National Endowaent for the Preservation of 
Liberty does 'all Junericaas ■ great service. 

Your support of their sfforts and the cause of 
freedom in Nicaragua will bring success in the 
struggle for democracy throughout Central America. 
Freedom is worth sacrificing for and young Ben and 
women do so everyday in Nicaragua. Me salute you 
for your sacrifices to help achieve democracy. May 
God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director, 
Political Military Affaxrs 



Pci^/^c 



Mr. TranV Darlington 



Partially Declassified/Released on lXiPC- & 68 

under provisions of E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



(^D) 



«< ' * V 



pci .rfc r 



761 






D«c«i&b«r 17, 1965 



Dear Hr. SalwatBcr: 

In aupportinq tht President's policy on Nicars9ua, 
the National Endovnent for the Preservation of 
Liberty does all Anericans a ^reat aervice. 

Your support of their efforts and the cause of 
freedom in Nicaragua will brin? success in the 
struqqle for democracy throuqhcut Central America. 
Freedom is worth sacrificing for and young nen and 
women do so everyday in Nicaragua. Vie salute you 
for your sacrifices to help achieve democracy. Hay 
God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director, 
Political Military Affairs 



Mr. Melvin Salwasser 




Panially Oeclassit'ed/Released on lOrfc^ P* 
under provisions of E,0 12356 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 



WSi 



?A !;/» f 



762 




I AO'^"'^'" 



•: ■' 3 -■ 



llddinLii 



NATIONAL SCCUniTV COUNCIL 

wAaMiNaTOM e.c i*m« 
Decanbcr n, 198S 



Dear Mr. Buah: 

In supporting the President's policy on Nicsrsqus, 
the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty does all Asericans a ^reat service. 

Your support of their efforts and the cause of 
freedoir. in Nicaragua will bring success la the 
struggle for dcaocracy throughout Central America, 
rreedon is worth sacrificing for and young sMn and 
wonen do so everyday in Nicaragua. He salute you 
for your sacrifices to help achieve danocracy. Hay 
Cod blest you. 

Sincerely, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director, 
Political Military- Affaire 



Bill Bush 



t'i'i ■ 

V r - - 



ioP-6aeft 



Pariially Declassit'ed/Released on 

under prouisrons of E 12356 
by K Johnson. Nalionai Security Council 



763 



UNWSSlFlEi 



Zi ^^ >/-'fc. 



NATIONAk tCCUniTY COUNCrt 
wAtMiNeroM DC ictet 



January 24, 198S 



0«ar Ellen: 

During 198S, the hope frecdoa and danocracy in Nicaragua ves kept 
alive with the help of the National Endowment ior the Preservatior 
of Liberty and fine Asiericana such aa you. Because you cared, 
the apark of liberty atill glowa in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy c'. 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
even inore difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian communist regime m 
Hanacua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair . 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President . 
But, we are headed m the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helpinc our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 



All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 



Sincerely, 



X V-^C^T^ 



a^tiaiiv *»W«5i*»*Released nn KPco oO 
bv K Johnson, National Secunty Council 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 






Mrs. St. John Garwood 



P/tlVrtCT 



^H^l 



764 



yNCUSSIREI 



NATIONAL SCCunrTY COUNCIL 

WAtMlNOTON DC MtM 



January 24, 1986 



Dear Mr*. Haley: 

During 1965, the hope fraedoir and dcnocracy in Nicaragua was kept 
alive with the help of the National CndowBcnt for the Pretervatior. 
of Liberty and fine Asericani auch aa you. Mcauce you cared, 
the spark of liberty atill glows in the darkncai of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the Fresident's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
even more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has beer, essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian coonunist regime ir. 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challengino time for America and her Pretider.t. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
cocnence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and Cod bless you. 

Sincerely 



'"^■ ""'*;">''*mimetm e(l on Ji£efi. fig, 
'"' Jo'"'son. National Secu„ty Council 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mrs. Rosalind K. Haley 




(^ 






> S - V ->ti"; * >'Ti ^?. ■>'•' 

it '-If: ^ "' '•- "V •■ '-r ■ ':..■ ' . 

i ■■*■ •• ■ ;4 ^ %' ■ •-' •• .- 



765 



UNClASSinE 



N<,TlON*L SCCuniTV COUNCIL 

WAtHiMCTON eC tOM« 



January 34, 1906 



Dear Mr. Hillaan: 

Durin9 1985, the hope freedom and democracy in Micara^va was kept 
alive with the help of the National Endowment for the Preaervatior 
of Liberty and fine Americana euch aa you. Becauac you cared, 
the epark of liberty atill 9lowa in the darkncaa of Nicaragua. 

Without patriota like you, carrying out the Preaident'a policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
even more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endo%niient for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian conanuniat regime ir 
Managua. You have giver, hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenoino time for Ajnerica and her President . 
But, w* are headed in the right direction. Today, m all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You can be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution m helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to sake our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 



All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 



Sincerely, 



.Lo^JirC 






by K Jc-mson, National Secufity Councfl 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



f'<L<^t>C 



Mr. Tatnall Lea Hillmar. 



@) 



766 



P/^.^ ^/^o 




NATIONAL »ICU«ITY COUNCIL 



January 34, 1986 



Dear Bunker: 

During 1985, the hope freedom and democracy in Mlcara9ua was kept. 
alive With the help of the National EndowBcnt for the Prcaervatior 
of Liberty and fine Americana auch aa you. Bacauac you cared, 
the apark of liberty atill glows In tha darkncaa of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out tha Prasidant's policy ci 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowffient for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role m the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has beer, essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian comsunist regime in 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair . 

Last ye«r was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You can be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Q)i; V.C^3=^ 



, , ^ Oliver L. North 

>-dHi3i iyaMi nrr M /Reiused on^ lgS 6. fifc Deputy Director 

b»K"1ohL" '"!',""'■'"' '-'J ''!•'* Political-Military Affairs 

f/ K Johnson, Waiionai Secl.,,. C.jncil 



Mr. Nelson Bunker Hunt 




767 



iTION*L $CCJ«ITV COONCIt 

WAtMIMCTOM DC tS»M 



January 24, 1986 



Dear Mr. Lcc: 

During 1985, the hope freedoir and d«aocracy in Nicaragua was kept 
alive With the help of the National tndowBent for the Preaervatior 
o; Liberty and fine Anericana auch •> you. Because you cared, 
the spark of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, wore difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drane unfolding in Nicaragus . 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian cooBBunist regime ir 
Managua. You have giver, hope where there would otherwise be 
despair . 

Last year was a challenging tiir.e for Awerica and her Presider.t. 
But, we are headed m the right direction. Today, m all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car. be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President ir. this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
comnence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces ever, more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 



All ry best for the New Year and God bless you. 



•'ilily 



Sincerely, 



.v.::^=< 



Sele^sfld on H fS& B9, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



oy K Johnson, Nadonsl Zeioi./ Cojncil 



Mr. Janes Arthur Lee 



p*! ^/it - 



V ■ ?. 



768 




NATONAi. MClWTV CO^-WO. 



January 24, 1986 



Dear Mr*. Lynch: 

During 1965, the hope freedom and democracy in MicaraTua was kep- 
alive with the help of the National EndoMMnt for the Preaervatic: 
of Liberty and fine Avcricant auch at you. Because you cared, 
the apark of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcoae in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and those of the Kational 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drajna unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyrar.r.y and oppression of the totalitarian co^unist regime in 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despeir . 

Last year was a challenging time for Ancrica and her President. 
But, we are headed m the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a deaocracy. You can be 
proud that you have made a cnjcial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
comrence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All ry best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 






Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mrs. Martha Lynch 



p/S.1 •z*^" 



769 




N»Tios*i. »tcu«iry cowNCit 

WAtniNaTON DC iltM 



January 24, 19S« 



De«r Mri. McKinley. 

During I9es, the hope freedov and daaocracy in NiearaTua was kept 
alive with the help of the National Endowaent for the Prcaervatior 
of Liberty and fine Asericanc aueh aa you. Bacauac you cared, 
the apark of liberty atill glowa in the darknesa of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots li,ke you, carrying out th« Praaident'a policy cf 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, (rcre difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowir.ent for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial rcle in the dejrocratic drava unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Vour support has been essential to those who struggle against t^^e 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian coBffunist regisie ir 
Managua. You have eiven hope where there would otharviae be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging tine for Asierica and her President. 
But, we are heaced m the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central Xrerica only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that ycu have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President m this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahtad, we will 
coivrence a renewed effort to Bake our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even oore effective. Once acair. 
your support will be essential. 

All ffiy best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



■"^-r.cil 



Sincerely, ^,^ ^.--n 

Oliver L. North 
Deputy Diractor 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mrs. Evelyn McKinley 



Pci ^/>;.T 




^. 






24 0-88-26 



770 




NATIONAL SCCUniTY COUNCIL 

WASHINGTON OC lOtM 



January 34, 1966 



C^ 

M 

^ 



Dear Mr. Moabachcr: 

During 198S, the hope freedom and denocracy in Nicara^Ma was kep-. 
alive with the help of the National Endoiment for the Preaervation 
of Liberty and fine Aaericana such as you. Because you cared, 
the spark of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the denocratic drasa unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian communist regine in 
Kanagua . You have giver, hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed m the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central Ajrerica only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we wii: 
coraicence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even Borc effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 



All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 



Sincerely, 






.^::5s3rC 



Olxvcr L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mr. Robert A. Mosbacher, Jr. 



P»!>V»CV 



771 



mmm 



» NATIONAL »CCU«ITY COUNCIL 



January 24, 1986 



Dear Mr». Nalaon: 

During 198 J, the hope freedom and democracy in Nicaragua vac kep* 
alive With the help of the National Endownent foi the Preeervatior 
of Liberty and fine Aaericani auch aa you. Baeauae you cared, 
the apark of liberty atill glows in the darkneia of Nicaragua. 

Without patriot! like you, carrying out the Praaident's policy of 
•upport for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have beer 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and thoae of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drana unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who atrugglc against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian coanunist regime in 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed m the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we'wiU 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even Bore effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



-artial ly ftifnr-ifirirl/Re'eased onJL^ ^fl 8 
by K Johnson, National Secua; Cornell 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mrs. Pace Nelson 



7£.i//VCV 






772 



^^c^^r^rri 



:LL? 



NATIONAL SCCUKITY COUNCIL 
WXMIN6TON DC l«M» 



January 24, 198€ 



Dear Barbara: 

During 1965, the hope freedoBi and democracy in Nicaragua vas kep^ ] 
alive with the help of the National Endownent for the Preaervatior. 
of Liberty and fine Anericant such at you. Because you cared, 
the sparX of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Viithout patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy oi 
support for a denocratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endownent for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the denocratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has beer, essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian communist regime ir. 
Kar.aoua. You have giver, hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 






Last year was a challenging tine for America and her President. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You can be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and Cod bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Partiall y O iiliiiili U /Released on l 'F€^ &B 
by K Johnsnn, NalcncI Si--. .. 0-..,cil 



Oliver L. North 
D«puty Oiractor 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mrs. Barbara Newington 



P«.»vACY 



773 



mmm 



NtrioNAL stcunirr council 

WAaniMOTOM. ex MtM 



J«nuary 34, 1986 



a 



0«ar Hrc. O'Brien: 

During 1985, the hope freedom end d«mocr«cy in Nic«re?M« was kept 
• live with the help of the Netional Indownent for the Preeervetior 
of Liberty end fine Aaericen* euch as you. Beeadae you cared, 
the aparX of liberty atill 9I0W8 in the darkncta of Wicaragua. 

Without patriot* like you, carrying out the Preaident'a policy of 
•upport for a democratic outcone in Nicaragua <#ould have been 
even more difficult. Your effort* and thote of the National 
Endowment for the Pretervetion of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drana unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your aupport has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian conasunist regine ir 
Kanagua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging tiwe for Ainerica and her President. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping ou: 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
comrnenee a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and Cod bless you. 

Sincerely, 



i/Rele.iseO onJl£G3 88 
by K JoHtison, Nitionsi Sc.i..i,, C;.,r.al 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
rolitieal-Military Affairs 



O'Brien 



P^i»/*fr)' 



774 



NATIONAL SECUHirr COUNCIL 

WAtMINeTON DC iOMt 



January 34, 1966 



D«ar Kr. O'Ncll: 

During 198S, the hope frcedon and democracy in Nicaragua was kept 
alive with the help of tht National Endowaent for the Pretervatior. 
of Liberty and fine Americans auch as you. Bacause you cared, 
the spark of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the . 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian communist reaine in 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed m the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You can be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helpinc our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
comrence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and Cod bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Paniallya nn l n iiili .um eiejsed on J!JHg:^8e 



"H I |lll . i | I J II j |i ju l (. 
by K Johnson. Ndtion,-.l S, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 






Kr. William J. O'Neil 



PAiViicy 



775 



UNCLASSiFlEO 



NATlONAt. MCJWTV COl^<l. 
» » »*«6^0N e C KMI 



January :4, 19IC 



D«ar n*. Parker: 

DuriDg 198S, the hopt frcedoa and daoiocraey in Niearagu* was kept 
alive with the help of the National Endowment 2or the Preservetior 
of Liberty and fine Americans such as you. Because you eared, 
the apark of liberty still glows in the darkness of Dicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcone in Nicaragua would have been 
ever. Bore difficult. Your efforts and thoae of the National 
tndowaent for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drana unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to thoae who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian coBonunist regime ir. 
Hanaeua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging tine for America and her Presidcr.t. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a deaocracy. You car. be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping cur 
Preeident in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
conieence a renewed effort to sake our assistance to the 
Democratic Pesistanee Forces even more effective. Once agair. 
your support will be essential. 

All ry best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



Partially 



i/Re'?3sed en II <-g^6 £ 

w c l asiB 



by K Johnson, Naticilal Seccri;y Caancil 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Pe. 



Ms. Diane William Parker 



776 



^. ^.fA? 






'1. * 



'N*TIOS*l. RtCUWITV COUNCIL 

Mf**MIN6TON DC t«»M 



January 24, 1986 



D««r General Patton: 

During 1965, the hope freedom and democracy in Nicaragua vat )iept 
alive with the help of the National Endownent for the Prcservatior. 
of Liberty and fine Americana auch as you. Because you cared, 
the spark of liberty atill qlows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a dejnocratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever, more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian cossBunist regime m 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all oi 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You car be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we wii: 
conanence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and God bless you. 

Sincerely, 



051;— l.^^SaS' 



Oliver L. North 
ParMy«wta^ed/RetaspdcnjN£c:-«68 Deputy Director 

""""T" I ...c„ rZj7 Political-Military Affairs 

by K Johnson, National Secuniy Council 







777 






KATKX*AL MCUWTV COLMCH. 
M*t>««'rOs DC }0M( 



Jtnuary 24, 1966 



De«r Nolan and Mary Jo: 

During 1985, the hope freedom and 4«aocracy in Nicaragua was kept 
alive with the help of the National Endownant for the Preservatior 
of Liberty and fine Aaericani auch as you. Becauae you cared, 
the aparK of liberty still glows In the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriot! like you, carrying out the Preaident's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
ever wore difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowwent for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drana unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian consnunist regime ir 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging tune for