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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

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United States Congressional., 



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100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 




IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 20 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13761 



United States Government Printing Office 
Washington : 1989 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 

Appendix B: Volume 20 
Depositions 



Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987.— Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



i 



I 



Bnited Starts Senate 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON, DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorable John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available. 



Sincerely, 




Warren B. Rudman V^ 
Vice Chairman 



III 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVEHT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON, DC 20S1S 

(202) 22$-7902 

March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U. S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr. Speaker: 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433, 100th Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified fajr^elease to the public. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courter, New Jersey 

Bill McCollum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Kerr 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence/Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Flynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Ray nor 
Joseph D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard Cullen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V. Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



♦The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

m 

Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hobron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Traylor 
Bobby E. Pope 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courier 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Doman 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 20 



Preface XXI 

Motley, Langhome A 1 

Mulligan, David P 42 

Nagy, Alex G 171 

Napier, Shirley A 218 

Newington, Barbara 359 

North, Oliver L 471 

O'Boyle, William B 491 

Osborne, Duncan 615 

Owen, Robert W 628 

Pena, Richard 883 

Pickering, Thomas 950 

Poindexter, John M 997 



XIII 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Volume 3 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Bamett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady, Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Cari R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke, George. 

Clarridge, Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin, Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig R 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC. 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Volume 10 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Rudd). 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward S. 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn, John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., Jr. 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Lei want, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IE. 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 15 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhorne A. 
Mulligan, David R 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., 11. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 19 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 
Royer, Larry. 
Rudd, Glenn A. 
Rudd, Glenn A. 



(See Henry Gaffney). 



Volume 24 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert L. 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IE. 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

TuU, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., IIL 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendiment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits— documentary evidence— were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 



.1 



DOTSON 
MILTON 



UNCiffi 



\4or^ -l-'^\i>i 



DEPOSITION OF LANGHORNE ANTHONY MOTLEY 



Thursday, June 25, 1987 



U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 
Arms Transactions with Iran, 

Washington, D. C. 



The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., 
in Room B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, Terry 
Smiljanich presiding. 

On behalf of the Senate Select Committee: Terry 
Smiljanich. 

On behalf of the Federal Bureau of Investigation: 
Timothy E. Traylor, Special Agent. 

On behalf of the Witness: Richard C. Warmer, 
O'Melveny & Meyers, 1800 M Street, N.W., Washington, D. C. 
20036 



Partially Declassified/Released on /-^-^^ -■f7 

under provisions of E.O. 12355 3<3 ^l^ 

by N. K'anan, National Security Council 




^OC^^ 



W/ilW/nrD 



{ 



(1) 



mmism 



1 

2 DEPOSITION OF : 

3 Langhorne Anthony Motley 

4 By Mr. Smiljanich 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 
25 



CONTENTS 

PAGE 



UNCUissm 



\immm 



I Whereupon, 



LANGHORNE ANTHONY MOTLEY 

3 was called as a witness and, having been previously duly 

4 sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

5 EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF 

g THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 

J BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q State your full name for the record. 
A Langhorne , L-a-n-g-h-o-r-n-e , Anthony, last name, 
Motley, M-o-t-l-e-y. 

Q You served as Assistant Secretary for Inter- 
American Affairs in the Department of State for a period 
of time; is that correct? 
A That's correct. 

Q Give us the date of your tenure as Assistant 
Secretary. 

A It was, as I recall, the first week of July of 
'83 through the 1st of July of '85. 

Q Just prior to that, you had been Ambassador 
to, I believe, Bolivia? 
A Brazil. 
Q What were the years you were Ajnbassador to 

Brazil? 

A 1981 to July 3, 1983. 

Q Could you give us a quick rundown of the 



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16 
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19 
20 
21 
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24 
25 



ii&iAi inoirirn 



Uliii&SiyflED 



' background of your educational experience? 
2 A Yes. I was born and raised in Rio de Janeiro, 
^ Brazil. My father owned an oil company there. I went to 
* college there. I graduated in 1960 with a degree in 

5 political science. I went into the Air Force shortly 

6 • thereafter as a regular officer, and spent ten years in 

7 the Air Force. My assignment was two years in Panama, 

8 three years in Alaska and two years between Texas and 

9 Alabama. 

10 In 1970, I resigned my commission as a regular 

11 officer, and I entered the real estate development business 

12 in Alaska. 

13 In 1975, I entered the state government as a 

14 commissioner, which was Secretary of the Department of 

15 Commerce, subsequently Commerce and Economic Development. 

16 I served in that position for two years, the period the 

17 pipeline was being built. In January of 1978, I resigned 

18 ""y position, with a handful of people formed a non-profit 

19 organization called Citizens for Management of Alaskan 
Lands. 

Congress at that time was undertaking the 
Alaska lands issue, which was in essence a planning and 
zoning effort on all the Federal lands in Alaska. That 
was supposed to last six weeks; it lasted four years. 
So I lived in Anchorage and worked in Washington for four 

IIKIPI Accinrn 



mmsm 



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2 

3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
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years, a rather long commute. 

That issue was over virtually in the waning 
days of *80. I returned to Alaska. In September of '81, 
after having been nominated by the President and confirmed 
by the Senate, I went to Brazil as U.S. Ambassador. 

In May of "83, I was approached about possibly 
taking over as Assistant Secretary, a va/cancy. 

Q Your predecessor was Tom Enders? 

A Yes. 

Q Go ahead. 

A And on short notice, I left Brazil, resigned 
as Ambassador, and came back and took over in July of 
•83. 

Q What is your current occupation? 

A I have a company called L. A. Motley s Co., 
which is a corporation. We deal in foreign trade and 
investment matters, both U.S. interests overseas, foreign 
■ interests to the United States, and in some cases, totally 
third-party interests involving the U.S. 

Q Now, when you became Assistant Secretary in July 
of 1983, what was the existing structure of the Department - 
or, perhaps you can tell us what you did in terms of the 
organization of the Bureau when you came into it. 

A All right. Well, the responsibility as Assistant 



Secretary for I 



1lf^TE!!ir(FI1 



vers formulating 



UNKASMD 



1 and implementing foreign policy, broadly speaking, relations 

2 of the United States with 33 countries, everything south of 

3 the Rio Grande River. That includes some 26 embassies, 
^ and I don't know how many posts. 

5 Obviously, the focus at that time was the Central 

6 ' American issue. The structure of the State Department is 

7 such the regional assistant secretaries report directly to 

8 the Secretary. That is the chain of command. 

9 The Bureau is so structured on both a functional 

10 and geographic basis, and each assistant secretary has his 

11 own management style. I chose to break the Bureau into 

12 five deputy assistant secretaries and realign the offices 

13 and tasks along those lines. They were both functional 

14 and geographical: Central America, South America and the 

15 Caribbean. Brazil and Mexico kind of acted on their own 

16 because they are just big enough they didn't fit under this 

17 although the deputy assistant secretary for South America 

18 had responsibilities for Brazil. 

19 I then had a deputy assistant secretary that 

20 would cover the operational, administrative area, and you 

21 had another one that covered the equivalent — equivalent 

22 position which covered the economic and financial aspects, 

23 because, although Central America was number one in the 
J. headlines as far as most people would think about, the 

issue that had come to a head was a deeper but not so 



25 



ONfiUMKD 



' visible problem. 
^ Q Who was your deputy assistant secretary for 
Central American Affairs? 

A It was Craig Johnstone. 
Q Was he a career serviceman? 
A Yes. 
' Q Your senior deputy assistant secretary was who? 

8 A Was Jim Michaels. 

9 Q Was there in existence when you became assistant 

10 secretary a restricted interagency group dealing with 

11 Latin American Affairs? 

12 A There was both an IG and a subpart of that, an 

13 RIG. They were not separate but contractions of one to 

14 the other. 

15 Q Could you expand on that a little bit? What was 

16 in place? 

17 A What was in place was both an IG -- I served as 

18 chairman. The main players by agencies were as follows: 

19 Department of State, myself as chairman -- I'll go through 

20 the agencies first. The Department of State, the Office 
2) of the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman of the Joint 

Chiefs of Staff, the Central Intelligence Agency, the 
National Security Council. These were the main players. 



2. Now, the IG as such, which was ongoing throughout, 

25 would include representatives from, depending on the issue, 

Ulllll_ii>nirirn 



^mrnm 



8 



1 Agriculture, Commerce, USTR, Treasury and other agencies. 

2 For instance, when 'we looked at the economic sanctions, on 

3 whether or not to impose sanctions on Nicaragua, when you 

4 looked at how do you implement the Jackson Plan as it was 

5 being developed, after it is developed, how do you implement 

6 it, this is something all these agencies -- 

7 Q In other words, it would expand from the Central 

8 depending on the issues it was dealing with? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q How did the RIG fit into this? 

11 a' The RIG was essentially the five main players. 

12 It would differentiate whether it was an IG or RIG by 

13 mainly the cut-off. The normal RIG was the five agencies. 

14 On other occasions, others would come to it depending — 

15 the RIG was mainly the five agencies represented. 

15 Q Now, during your tenure as assistant secretary, 
let's go down the five central players and get a listing 
of the people, not a comprehensive listing, but the people 
who would normally attend or have an open invitation to 
attend a RIG meeting starting with the State Department. 

A I would be the chair, Craig Johnston more likely 
would be the deputy assistant secretary, Jim Michaels was 
there quite often, on occasion another deputy assistant 
secretary by the name of Tony Gillespie, because he had 
operation responsibilities, liaison with the Intelligence 

iikini *POinrn 



mmsm 



Cominunities for my Bureau, and under Craig Johnstone , the 
office director for Central America, Shawn Smith, also a 
Foreign Service Officer. 

Within the State Department at different times, 
depending on the issues, you might have a representative 
from INR, you might have a representative from a political 
military bureau, and one, on a rare occasion, may be more 
than one, but rare, the Office of Public Policy. 

Q At that time, was that Otto Reich? 

A That's right. 

Q With regard to INR's presence on the RIG, would 
their involvement be in connection with -- for example, if 
you all were talking about covert operations in Central 
America, is that something that INR would usually partici- 
pate in? 

A After a period of time. Initially that wasn't 
correct and then for a variety of reasons, the Secretary 
decided that he wanted to restructure the overall covert 
activities in which he put all of that in the hands — at 
his level — in the hands of Under Secretary Mike Armacost. 
Mike Armacost then looked to INR, because they do have a 
charter for liaison with the Intelligence Committees on 
covert actions that come from within the Central Intelli- 
gence Agency, within the rubric of liaison with the Intelli- 
gence Community. So depending on how strongly they felt 

IIMPI aooinrn 



10 



wmmm 



10 



' about coming or not coming, and the issues, they came to 

2 the meetings. 

>» From an operational sense, there is always a 

* healthy friction between geographic bureaus and functional 

5 bureaus. It is the normal rub and pull that happens. 

6 , Q Would it be fair to say INR was not a rare 

7 participant? / 

8 A Well, throughout the whole period of time there 

9 was probably a period of time of almost a year they didn't 

10 participate; then after that, they would participate in -- 

11 yes, they were more than rare. But in the first year, they 

12 didn't participate. 

13 Q All right. But in your last year, let's say 

14 July of '84 to July of '85, they were a fairly regular 

15 participant in the RIG meetings, weren't they? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Who usually would attend from INR? 

18 A McNeil when he came back into that job, was the 
)9 major person to come in. 

20 Q Let me put it another way, too. Would it be fair 

21 to say that you certainly, and during your tenure as 
assistant secretary, did not exclude INR, specifically 
exclude INR from participation in the RIG? 

A That is correct. I wouldn't necessarily overly 



encourage it, but I wouldn't exclude it. Now, the reason 

UWPI AOOirirn 



11 



\ivimmi\i 



11 



is this. INR serves a very useful function: Being the 
Secretary's intelligence analyst of situations, and he 
would draw on them and 'we would draw on them. Whereas a 
function of the RIG was to analyze the situation, it also 
was a policy formulation, and, as in any bureaucratic forum, 
you want to make sure the guy stays in the position in which 
he was posted. There wasn't any friction between Mike and 
I; we understood each other perfectly. If they felt a need 
to participate, fine. 

Q INR brought a certain expertise within their 
field to the RIG meetings; is that right? 

A In what manner? 

Q Their expertise in connection with their 
familiarity with intelligence matters, covert operations, 
matters such as that. Isn't that what they would bring 
to the RIG? 

A At that stage of the game, I can't attest as to 
how much INR knew about the methodology of covert opera- 
tions. I assume it was something, but it wasn't evidenT*" 
to me because I didn't deal with them on that basis. 

What they brought was, I thought, the synthesizing 
analytical situation of the intelligence that dealt with 
what is the situation in Iran. They spent an inordinate 
amount of their time, for instance, with the guys at DEA, 
CIA trying to figure out how many contras there were, how 

IIMi 



12 



UNI^imfD 



11 



' much Russian equipment was, military equipment, was getting 

^ in and this kind of stuff. It was a very, very difficult 
job, and there are always differences of opinion. 
I saw their focus as in that respect. 

^ Q What was your opinion of Frank McNeil's expertise 

® i in that area, in this field? 

7 A McNeil is a first-class officer. He has got a 

8 good analytical mind. He has familiarity with intelligence 

9 sources and methods. He has an ability to gauge, I think, 

10 good judgment of credibility, credence you put on different 

11 sources. He also brought to the table an understanding 

12 of Central America. 

13 Q You got along well with Ambassador McNeil; is 

14 that correct? 

15 A Yes. He is a very good officer. He is feisty. 

16 He and I understood each other. 

17 Q Assistant Secretary Abrauns was your successor ; 

18 is that correct? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Now, Assistant Secretary Abrams stated to us 

21 that his perception was when he became assistant secretary 

22 that INR did not attend at all RIG meetings and never 

23 attended RIG meetings at any time. 

24 Now, that was a false perception; is that 

25 correct? 

II UAini AP Pinrn 



13 



"NiSKf 



U 



12 



A Well, let me just tell you, you asked me the 
question. They were a regular participant in the last year. 
I don't know what Elliott based his perception on. 

Q Obviously that was a false perception. 

My question is, did you and he have any discus- 
sions when he came in to become assistant secretary about 
the organization of the RIG and the participation of INR? 

A To my recollection, no. As you and I discussed 
before, the transition between Elliott and I followed to 
a certain degree the same transition I experienced with 
Tom Enders. What I did with Elliott is the day the Presi- 
dent made an announcement of his appointment, I took him 
through the whole Bureau to meet everybody. I sat down with 
Jim Michaels and the rest of the staff and said, "There is 
a briefing being set up for Elliott." I told Elliott that 
I would be available to answer any questions you would want 
in any area, but I wasn't going to impose myself in the 
middle of his briefing, and then I went on to run the 
Bureau. 

Elliott and I did not have to any extent -- he 
may have asked isolated questions, but I don't recall any 
in-depth discussion of whether INR participated or not. 
It may have happened, but I don't remember. 

Q It would be fair to say, wouldn't it, that one 
of your primary misauM:;^^ jiuring your tenure as assistant 



>apM:;^£ ^uring your tenure 

JlolJSifirn 



14 



iifi&mmB 



13 



1 secretary was to attempt to get Congress and the public to 

2 support the administration policy in Central America? 

3 A I probably spent more time on that one issue than 

4 all the rest of them combined. 

5 Q Now, in mid 1984, the new legislation imposed a 

6 cut-off of funds for -- 

7 A You are talking about October — 

6 Q I'm talking about October 1, Boland II, I think 
9 it is referred to at times. 

10 When that law came into effect -- first of all, 

11 it didn't come as a complete surprise, did it? You all 

12 were expecting something like this to perhaps be coming 

13 down the pike? 

14 A What we had learned to expect is that you had 

15 an ebb and flow in the degrees of congressional support. 
jg I think what I have found from my perception of how other 

people view this thing, outside of those dealing with it 
at the time, was that October, '84, Boland Amendment -- 
Q Let's stop. 
(Recess. ) 

BY MR. SMILJANICH: 
Q Go ahead . 

A So there was always a constant threat of a change 
in the level of congressional support and/or agreement 
with the Executive Branch which way to go. So every one 

liKin Accinrn 



15 



mmm 



14 



of these watersheds, periods would be something you could 
say it could go bad or good. 

What people forget is that almost identical 
language to Boland II was in the CR that was in conference 
in October, '83, and didn't survive the Congress. So it 
wasn't like ho-hum -- it was a constant battle all the 
time trying to get some kind of parallel or perception of 
what the Executive Branch wanted to do or Congress was 
prepared to do. 

I'm not saying Boland II was not a significant 
piece of legislation. What I'm saying, this battle went 
on all the time. It would come at you in appropriations 
legislation, there were tactics on both sides. 

Q It would be fair to say, wouldn't it, Boland II 
didn't blind-side you in terms of knowing there was a 
distinct possibility there would be an aid cut-off? 

A No, it didn't blind-side in the sense of a 
surprise. It inhibited the Executive Branch's ability to 
carry out its policy. 

Q In connection with that serious impact it would 
have upon administration policy, what can you tell us 
about any discussions that were held within Government 
that you participated in dealing with preparation for 
Boland II or how to handle it, what to do? 

A There were a variety of discussions, and some 



llMPxmmm 



16 



\immEi> 



15 



' of the discussions took place in the Executive Branch 

^ settings also. I mean, it was a subject that if this 

^ happens, what happens type of thing. 

^ I can remember Senator Moynihan on a variety of 

^ occasions in the Senate Intelligence Committee saying "you 

° guys are going to have to issue 50,000 passports here, face 

7 up to it. This thing is going to get cut off," so on and 

8 so forth. So it was a subtle understanding but it was 

9 obvious that by the spring of '84, those moneys that had 

10 been allocated, authorized, appropriated by Congress for 

11 the contras was getting near running out. 

12 So there was -- you were looking at a short-term 

13 lack of resources. In addition to this, it was obvious 

14 to us Congress was not going to be able to do much until 

15 the CR. It happens about that time. So there was discus- 

16 sion back and forth. 

17 The Agency, the Central Intelligence Agency, 

18 which was the agency in charge, did briefings to the 

19 ; Congress saying, "We got X millions of dollars amount; 

20 I we are cutting back subsistence, make sure these guys have 
2) three squares a day," and this kind of stuff. 

22 i My focus was to attempt to get a favorable 

23 resolution. I can tell you a lot of people came up in 
October, '83. Kind of dramatic circumstances. But it got 



done. I was hopeful we could do it again. We weren't. 

flMPI AOCinrn 



17 



vmnmii 



16 



• So a lot of my focus was in trying to get the legislation. 

2 Q Well, what conclusions were reached with regard 

3 to what -- strike that. 

* I understand you are not a lawyer. 

5 A That's correct. 

6 , Q But it was part of your job, I would assume, to 

7 reach some kind of conclusion about what was allowable 

8 and what wasn't allowable under the existing circumstances 

9 once Boland II came into effect? 

10 A Post-Boland II. 

11 Q ' What conclusions did you reach with regard to 

12 what was allowable activity in connection with support for 

13 the contras? 

14 A The conclusion that I reached, obviously, the 

15 law in my mind proscribed the State Department, among 

16 others, giving assistance, indirect assistance to them. 

j7 I understood that. And so we governed our actions on that 
basis. 

It didn't mean we didn't keep going back to 
Congress trying to get the money. But I understood that 
we were not to engage -- as one of those named or identified 
in legislation as a Government agency -- was not supposed 
to directly or indirectly assist the contras. It's kind 
of a broad statement. 

Q In otheii A/finds . when the legislation referred to 



;ii«£>iiqs. wnen tne iegisi. 



18 



uNulHooiitlD 



17 



' the CIA, the Department of Defense and any other agency 

^ engaged- in intelligence activities, you understood that to 

' include the State Department as an entity that was not 

* allowed to -- 

^ A Absolutely. 

S I Q -- allowed to engage in direct or indirect 

7 support to the contras? 

8 A Exactly. 

9 Q In fact, along that line, let me read to you 
10 a quote that's attributed to you during a hearing before 
" Congress. According to this, you testified at the time 

12 that the restriction was written in "pretty plain English 

13 no money should be spent directly or indirectly promoting 

14 the contra war. The message was just stop." That is not 

15 complicated, and it is not micromanagement . 

16 A I don't think that last part was in quotes. 

17 Q I'm sorry. The term "micromanagement" — those 

18 are not your words? 

19 A No. If you look at it closely, you will find -- 

20 Q Strike that question. 

21 A I'll tell you another thing in regards to this. 

22 If you go back through the transcript, you will find that, 

23 a not unusual event, in several different newspaper 

24 articles there is a juxtaposition. I'm not saying they 

25 are taking it out of context or anything else, something 

iiuni Aooirirn 



19 



\imm.\i 



18 



that happened on page 96 would be added to something that 
appears on 97. I'm telling you, having gone back and read 
the transcripts after reading this, if you want to read off 
the transcript, fine. 

Q Is it true you referred to the Boland II amend- 
ment as pretty plain English? 

A Yes. 

Q Let me back up for a second. I had not completed 
my survey of the RIG and the usual participants. We went 
through the people at the State Department. Who usually 
attended from the Office of the Secretary of Defense? 

A Nestor Sanchez, who was deputy assistant secre- 
tary for SIA. 

Q And the Joint Chiefs of Staff? 

A Vice Admiral Burrough. 

Q Off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q Who was the usual participant from the Agency? 

A In the first, through about the summer of '84, 
late summer, maybe early fall of '84, Duane Clarridge. 

Q And after that? 

A After that, for about a period of about four 
or five months, it was his successor in charge of Latin 
America on the DDO side, whose name escapes me right now. 



O side, whose name escape 

IIMOI AQQIEffll 



20 



a 

9 

to 
II 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UNHBimo 



19 



1 Then he was, towards the last two or three months I was 

2 there, he was replaced as the regular participant byl 

3 who was head of what they call the Central America Task 
Force . 

5 In essence, what they did was, I believe, and 

g I I have to check this, but I believe what they did was they 
y gave Dewey's successor responsibilities for all Latin 

America and Central America. Even though^^^^^ worked for 
this guy, this guy was put more --^^^^^|was put more in 
Central America. 

Q - Okay. And from the National Security Council, 
who was there? 

A Several at different times. Probably the longest 
throughout the two-year period of time, the most regular 
participant was Oliver North. 

Q Who else would sometimes attend? 

A There would be Constantine Menges , Jackie Tillman, 
a fellow, it was a State Department officer -- 

Q Ray Burghardt? 

A Ray Burghardt. I think that's about it. There 
would be different ones in and out. Each had different 
responsibilities. It was kind of fuzzy as to who was the 
real NSC. 

Q What do you mean by that? In other words, who 
at the NSC when it came to Latin American Affairs and when 



JINCUSSIflFn 



21 



BMSfflEO 



20 



specifically came to matters involving the Nicaraguan 
opposition -- 

A The reason I say it's kind of fuzzy is that RIG, 
you should understand, covered everything in Latin America, 
not just Central America. It would depend to a certain 
degree what the issue was, and, secondly, whatever the issue 
was, who was doing what to whom. 

Q When the RIG dealt with Central American Affairs 
and specifically Nicaraguan affairs, did you have a clear 
understanding as to the division of responsibility at the 
NSC staff for those matters? 

A I had a clear understanding there didn't appear 
to be a clear division of responsibilities in NSC. Every- 
body wanted to play that part. 

The way they are organized, it is looser and 
depends on whomever has been internally tasked. It is not 
as compartmentalized as our operations are. 

Q Oliver North was a frequent participant at the 
RIG meetings? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, going back to where I had left off when 
we were discussing the implementation of Boland II and 
your activities and the activities of the Bureau during 
that time, did you ever have any discussions with Oliver 
North about his understanding of what Boland II allowed and 



IIMPI ACOinrn 



22 



msmm 



21 



1 didn't allow? 

2 A . Yes. I had one discussion with him in my office 

3 following a RIG meeting, the time I'm not sure, but it 

4 must have been within a reasonably short period of time 

5 after the passage of Boland II. 

6 1 Q So this would have been sometime in 1984? 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Go ahead. What was discussed at that time? 
g A I don't know how the subject came up or what 

JO prompted it, but I brought it up, and, in essence, I said 
|] to Ollie that I felt that the language of Boland II pro- 
J2 scribed to all of us that were in a RIG direct or indirect 
j3 support. 

j4 Ollie said -- let me strike that. He said 

]5 the NSC, as part of the White House, is not an intelli- 
jg gence agency. I think I was more surprised by the comment 
j7 because I never thought of it in that context. I just 
fg .never thought it through. I just assvimed it, and I 

didn't — so in my surprise, I said, Well, that's some- 
thing I hadn't thought of and he might have wanted to 
seek appropriate counsel on that subject. That was the 
end of the discussion. 

Q He indicated to you that he did not feel that 
Boland II applied to his activities at the NSC because 
the NSC was not fl^flSiiffy engaged in intelligence -- 



23 



|)N60S8»ttD 



22 



A Right. 

Q You were somewhat surprised? 

A I never thought about it in that context. I 
wasn't disputing his assertion. 

Q But you weren't agreeing with it either? 

A No. I was surprised by it. Once having been 
surprised, I didn't quote People v. Schwartz and shoot 
down his argument. 

Q You suggested to him he might want to seek legal 
counsel on that? 

A ' Yes. It wasn't my ]ob to tell him what his job 
description was. 

Q Did he tell you he had obtained any kind of 
legal counsel on the issue? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Now, in connection with what could or couldn't 
be done in view of Boland II, were there any discussions 
that you participated in or heard of concerning whether 
or not private American groups could fill the breach in 
Central America given the inability of the Government to 
use appropriated funds? 

A Well, even before the cut-off, it was e>7ident 
if by nothing else than reading the papers that there were 
private groups in the United States that felt strongly 
enough about the issue to supply money, goods many times. 

llMniJOPinrn 



24 



limtmii 



23 



Through that period of time from when I got there until 
before Boland, there' were groups that would gather Christmas 
toys or food and bandages. In fact, there was an issue that 
came out in the paper recalling congressional inquiries in 
regard to National Guard airplanes on missions going there 
taking some of this stuff. It was a subject -- and, at 
the same time, there were private groups supporting the 
Sandinista position. 

Were there private efforts? Yes, we were aware 
of such. I was aware of it from reading the newspapers. 

Q I understand that. My question specifically, 
though, is whether or not there were, any discussions about 
turning to these groups to engage in activities the 
Government was now proscribed from doing. 

A Your phrase "turning to," I'm not trying to 
nit-pick. Your question might imply the Government then 
says. Okay, we have to ge here, we have to go here. 

Q That's what I'm suggesting. 

A So in that context, the answer is no. 

Q Okay. 

A There were obviously discussions the money was 
drying up and there wasn't going to be any and somehow 
these guys had to live, sure. It is obvious. 

Q But — 

A They were undertaking^hgli^a\«iBfeund-raising 



WiKWff 



25 



msMB 



24 



t 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 

•7 
18 
19 
20 
2t 
22 
23 
24 
25 



efforts . 

Q I understand. But there was no, to your knowledge, 
unconscious decision to have people in the Government such 
as Oliver North deal directly with these private groups 
to see to it that they did things in furtherance of our 
policy in Central America because the Government could no 
longer engage in those activities; a conscious decision to 
do it rather than simply knowing they were already doing 
it? 

A I was unaware of any conscious decision or 
discussion . 

Q Did you have any perception that Lieutenant 
Colonel North had any connection with private groups opera- 
ting in Central America? 

A Colonel North had strong feelings on the issue 
of the contras and the role they played. The rest of 
us did -- all of us felt strongly. Anybody who examined 
.that policy from the Elxecutive Branch -- I'll tell you my 
feelings . 

I felt that the presence of the contras was 
fundamental to carrying out the purpose of the policy. 
I consider the contras as an instrument of U.S. national 
policy. I will let every other guy describe how he felt 
about it. I think that -- so I felt strongly about it. 
I think Colonel North also felt strongly about it as part 



iiMPI AQ^iCICn 



26 



10 



\iwmB 



25 



' of the policy, and also as part of an entity, a group 

^ per se . A differentiation between the two. 

^ Q But my specific question is whether or not you 

had any perception beyond that about his connection with -- 
^ A I think it would be fair to state -- knowing how 
* : strongly he felt about the contras as an entity as opposed 

' to a policy, I would not have been surprised if he had 

® talked with people and been in contact with people whose 

^ aims were to raise money for the contras. 

If you see Ollie North as I saw him, dedicated, 

" a person with strong feeling on the issue, it would not 

'2 be unusual for him to enter into that kind of discussion, . 

13 contacts. 

14 Q But were you aware, did you have any specific 

15 knowledge of his involvement? 

16 A No. No. 

J7 Q There has been public testimony now before both 

18 committees relating to what other witnesses have said about 

19 Colonel North's activities during -- let me take the time 

20 frame of mid-1984 to mid-1985 when you were assistant 

21 secretary for Latin American Affairs, in which witnesses 

22 have alleged Colonel North passed military intelligence to 

23 the contras, had a supply of Traveler's checks in his 

24 office and made payments to contra leaders. It is fair 

25 to say you were not aware of any of those activities of 



lot aware of any of those 



27 



19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



DimStKD 



26 



1 Colonel North? 

2 A 1 knew nothing about Traveler's checks. With 

3 regard to the issue of passing intelligence, it wasn't 

4 in Colonel North's 30b description to do that. 

5 Throughout this whole period of time, there was 

6 always an issue about sharing intelligence or not. Congress 

7 later clarified that point: The conduit for passing that 

8 intelligence goes through the Central Intelligence Agency. 

9 If, in fact, the decision was made or not made, that was 
10 the conduit to do it. 

ft To aiwer your question, the answer is no. 

12 Q Certainly it was your perception it would not 
be in any event part of Colonel North's job description 
to be the conduit for military intelligence to the contras? 

A That's correct. With the caveat I don't write 
his job description nor give him his instructions. 

^^ Q I'm just talking about your perception of the 

fg matter. 

A That's correct. 

Q Again on the same topic of general discussions 
about what Boland meant and what could or couldn't be done, 
d"3you recall that -- this would have been when James Baker 
was Chief of Staff, before he became Secretary of Treasury. 
DO you recall Jim Baker being very, very clear and emphatic 
in his opinion about the Boland |mgD<ta|at, that it was clear 




28 



17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UlffiSISSinED 



27 



1 to him there could be no involvement of any of the Govern- 

2 ment agencies with the contras during the cut-off period? 

3 A What sticks in my mind is a statement made by 

4 then Chief of Staff Jim Baker at a meeting in the Situation 

5 Room at the White House. Obviously it had something to do 

6 with Latin America. Otherwise, why would I be there? The 

7 matter which he said was, as much as we might not like the 

8 Boland Amendment and what it did as far as cutting down 
g our options, the facts were clear the U.S. Government had 

JO to stick to the law. I can't recall -- I 'm^araphrasing 

f] what he said because I^can't recall his exact words. That 

12 was the impact in my mind. It was a strong statement. 

13 Q That was the time Robert McFarlane was National 

14 Security Adviser; is that correct? 

15 A That's correct. 
Ig Q Do you recall Mr. McFarlane rendering any opinion 



or did you have any impression as to his view of the 
matter? 

A He never rendered an opinion that I can recall. 
And I never discussed^it with him at length other than the 
fact thafc=we_would have empathized how difficult it made, 
or how we -Xelt how detrimental it was to the interest 
the United States to have that restriction. I'm not 
suggesting that he was fighting -- 

Q In June of 198 4, there was an nsPG meeting 



stiof 



msmm 



29 



mmmw 



28 



which -- I'm not suggesting you were there, I don't think 
you were -- an NSPG meeting which discussed specifically 
the possibility of going to third countries to make contri- 
butions or render aid directly to the contras in view of 
the U.S. inability to do so because of the aid restrictions. 
Do you recall there being discussions up to the NSPG level 
of that matter during that time frame? 

A That subject was discussed. Whether it was June 
or after Boland or just before Boland, I don't know, but 
it was also a subject of congressional inquiry. 

At congressional hearings you got questions asked 
before that period of time on the subject of third 
countries . ^ ' 

I was unaware of any solicitation made to any 
third country throughout the period that I was there. 

With the passage of Boland, there was at least, 
to my knowledge, a political decision made, which is a 
sieve below a legal interpretation of Boland. You have 
two sieves if you operate in Government: Should you do 
this from a policy or political aspect, and can you or 
can't you from a legal aspect. The first sieve is politi- 
cal. In my mind it was very clear, and there was, if not 
discussion, implicit instructions from the Secretary -- 
my understanding -- 

Q You mean the Secretary of State? 



nean tne Secretary ot Stat 



30 



oNciwiiiir 



29 



1 A State. That for political reasons, we would not 

2 solicit. At that time it was done for political reasoning. 

3 The reasoning I will give you is this. As I see it, many 

4 of the countries that could have been solicited or been 

5 contributors were recipients of foreign aid, U.S. foreign 

6 aid. You didn't have to be clairvoyant to understand sharp 

7 opponents to the administration policy would try to make 

8 the case, wait a minute, you guys are soliciting from these 

9 guys, and that gets out in the record and clouds the issue. 
10 It is a tough one to say, no, I'm not mad, type of approach. 
n So from a political point of view ■^'- and I know, 

12 I went up there and testified on the issue many times, I'm 

13 not about to get into that. I didn't think it served us 

14 any purpose in that sense. So there was a -- there was 

15 no doubt in my mind it was political. It was a political 

15 decision. I understood. There wouldn't be any solicitations 

tj made by the Department of State. 

fg I was only concerned about the Department of 

State. I don't mean to say only the Department of State. 
Q Let me madce this dear now«a- Later in thetij^ 
period, in mid to*31Ke 1985, Congress,_the Department ^E.. 
State — ^^ 

A I was gone by then. 

Q -- authorized the Department of State to solicit 
third parties? 



UNCLASSIFIFn 



31 



vmsms 



30 



I understand that. Before that specific language 
in the legislation, I'm talking about that time frame, I 
understood that the Department of State certainly was not 
going to be .doing this activity, soliciting third countries 
during the time you were there; is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Q Now, did you also have an understanding that 
that was going to apply to other part^ of the Government 
also, such as the NSC, Department of Defense, anyone else? 
Were there discussions about- whether ottier agencies could 
or could t»t do ^at? .'"" ^* 

A No, it didn'Jt, entez^n€^tae.„discussion . I just 
focused on the Department of Si^ate. ' 

There's one aspect of this whole issue, donations 
and/or solicitations from foreign countries. Another 
aspect other than this, you are not going to deal in foreign 
aid kind of thing. There are several countries in the world 
that have a competing mirror image. North Korea, South 
Korea, Taiwan, the Republic of China, Israel, the Arab 
States, North Africa, black Africa. Those issues, Zionism, 
other issues get debated ad nauseum at forums like the 
United Nations and other places. It is not unusual for 
the countries on both sides of that issue in Latin America 
to go around and try to win friends, because Latin America 
is 33 countries, that's 33 votes. Some of them don't have 

\\m AQCinrn 



32 



wimsB 



31 



' relations with different ones. So it is hot an unusual 

2 event to find one or the other of these countries on their 

3 own motion, if you would, trying to curry favors. 

* I can give you examples of the Republic of China 

5 going to the Island of Dominique wanting to erect a cultural 

6 , center and do all kinds of things. What is the national 

7 interest of the Republic of China and the Island of 

6 Dominique? I just point this out to you because I think 
9 in this whole thing of solicitation, it is in their self- 

10 interest to do those kinds of things. 

Jl Again, it gets kind of fuzzy. It is an aspect 

12 many people use. I see it in Guyana, Surinam^ the 

13 Republic of China, Taiwan, each trying to vie -- 

14 Q Were there any discussions about the second 

15 sieve concerning third-country solicitation, that is 

16 whether it could be done, whether it was legal? 

17 AX don't recall any specific legal debate, 

fg discussion of the issue because from my mind, that first 
fg sieve had been passed so you didn't have to go to the 
2Q second sieve. I don't remember any, "let's write a legal 
memorandum, let's have a meeting to discuss the legal 
aspects." I don't remember that aspect of this thing. 
The first sieve stopped so you just go on to 
the second one. I think in most people's minds, if they 



thought about it, tah^.wfliAlc^ aia^i.|-_j =;-flijestionable . 



33 



UIWt4J^ED 



32 




Now, you were not aware of any solicitations 
made either by the Department of State or any other entity 
of Government during your tenture as assistant secretary? 
A That's right. 

Q So if^^^^^Hwas approached and contributed 
S2 million in 1984, that is something you are totally 
unaware of. 

A Absolutely. 

Q And you were not aware of any discussions that 
Colonel North may have had witt 

^^^^^^^^las to use false or end-user 
certificates for^^^^^^^^lin an attempt to get aid to 
the contras? You were not aware of any approaches 
made to^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hon 
A No. There is only one incident, the specifics 
of which I don't recall, and I believe it wasl 
the NSC, in an unusual procedure sent a cable to the 
ambassador, Michaels can give you more specifics on this 
and Craig Johnstone -- instructions, as I recall, by cable 
inform^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f^for from 
^^^^^^^^^^^H something to do with arms coming to 
^^^^^^^H I think it may have involved different -- I'm 

even sure ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|r 
ring a bell. It may have been some other -- when we 
became aware of that, we instructed the ambassador to 



34 



I 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



mmsm 



33 



disregard that cable, not carry out those instructions -- 

Q Did you do this by further cable? 

A No, we did this orally by secure telephone. And 
then went back to the NSC and pointed out to them, in our 
opinion, I think in that case it was a violation of the 
Export Control Act. 

You said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ . ever 

remember^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand probably 
not be a violation of the Export Control Act, but you 
mentioned^^^^^^^^Hand it rang a bell. 

Q What was the time frame, do you recall? '84, 
'85? 

A I think it must have been '84 sometime. But 
the NSC backed off and that was the end of that. 



Who at 



le J^i^Has doing tlis? 1^# 



A^^ ^m'liot^ sure . I can't, I think McFarlane made 
the final decision to back eff. I can't speak as to whether 
he was involved — I mean, we get into this thing halfway, 
the ainbassador says I have a cable -- 

Q Something he got directly from NSC? 

A Right. Michaels or Johnstone can give you more 
specifics . 

Q Was ^^^^^^^^^^^^H the ambassador then? 

A I really don't remember. It may have been 
his predecessor. 



ilfclCliSMD 



35 



UNfietSSfflED 



34 



It was an unusual procedure. Ambassadors receive 
their instructions from the Secretary of State. Ambassadors 
are ambassadors for all the United States, the President's 
personal representative. 

The way instructions normally goes is from the 
Secretary of State, and it is unusual and I think in rare 
exceptions unhealthy for ambassadors to be receiving 
instructions from Africa or whatever. 

Q You were not aware of any contributions by the 
Iduring your tenure? 

No . ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^V some- 
body will say ^^^^^^^^H were -- you know, a congressional 
question that says, all right, di^^^^^^^^B?^^^ money 
to^^^^^ 

Q You had no personal knowledge? 
A No. I found out the guy was putting up a 
million dollars a month. It came as a great surprise to 
me. 

I 'm almost done. 





36 



mmm 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 




Q Let me just ask you, did you take any trips to 
Central America with Colonel North? 

A I don't think so. The trips I took to Central 
America were either solo or Harry Slaughterman. On one 
occasion I went to Cap Weinberger. I don't think -- I 
can't remember whether Ollie was on that trip or not. 
But I took no other trips. 

Q I know all of the activity, all the testimony 
that has been developed so far in connection with this 
secret airstrip in northern Costa Rica all took place after 
your tenure as assistant secretary. My question is simply: 

IIMPI ftocicirn 



37 



1 

2 
3 
4 

sl 

6 
7 
8 
9 

10 

II 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UNOUSSiED 



36 



When you -- given your involvement in Latin American Affairs 
and your tenure as assistant secretary, candidly what was 



your reaction when you read about this secret a 



irstripJ 



northern Costa Rica? What was your reaction? 
A If somebody had asked me whether we would be 
able to do that, my answer would have been no. So from 
that point of view, I thought it was a significant event 
in that sense. 

I always got the feeling the Costa Ricans were 
short of that kind of visible support. The Costa Ricans 
have kind of a different, paradoxical relations view of 
Nicaragua. 

If you run a poll in Costa Rica today and ask 
the question, who do you hate the most, Somoza or the 
Sandinistas, they would say Somoza. 

Ask a second question: Who do you fear the most? 
.Overwhelmingly the Sandinistas. Because Somoza didn't 
have any territorial -- there was a revolution without 
frontiers, any of this stuff. These guys worry about 
that. It is a very convoluted feeling they have. 

Q Well, would you agree with this statement: 
A covert airstrip being used or going to be used to help 
resupply the contras in Nicaragua located in northern 
Costa Rica with the.knpwledgejDt^ aad.5fliae participation 



he knowledge _of and. some 



38 



3 



mmmn 



37 



' by the American embassy in Costa Rica and] 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|is extreme 

with regard to U.S. -Costa Rican bilateral relations? 
* Would you agree with that? 

5 A I would deem the most significant aspect of that 

6 . question, that statement is the effect it has when it becomes 

7 public. 

8 Q In what sense? 

9 A Well, in the sense that maybe in Costa Rica's 

10 own best interest, they decided they want to support. The 
H body politic and the climate is such we are neutral and 

12 we don't do that. If you have public exposure of this 

13 information, it puts their government in an embarrassing 

14 position. 

15 Q Let me ask you this hypothetical question. If 

16 you as assistant secretary had heard that a private 

17 American group had negotiated with the Costa Rican govern- 

18 ment for permission to put in a resupply airstrip to assist 

19 the contras in southern Nicaragua, you as assistant secre- 

20 tary would want to know more about that, wouldn't you? 

21 A Yes. 
MR. SMILJANICH: That's all I have. 
I'm sorry. Let me pursue that one last question. 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q Why would you want to know more about that? 



\m\ AcciHEa 



39 



m\mm 



38 



1 

2 
3 

4 
5 
6 

7 

e 

9 
10 
11 
12 

lal 

14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



A Because of the -- I guess because it is part of 
the thing you put forward in the first question. I'm 
leading off with that was the involvement of the embassy, 
^^^^^^^^^^^|and the rest of it. You know, if a rancher 
decides to put in a strip, fine, but when you start bringing 
the U.S. Government into it, then it starts affecting the 
bilateral relations. 

It was definitely a hypothetical question. You 
asked for my reaction. I gave it to you. It was based 
on your two questions. 

Q ■ Let me exclude the involvement of the American 
embassy for a you that^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B 

^^^^^Hconsidered this as a covert, secret matter that 
was not to be discussed and that the airstrip was going 
to be use^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^■was going to be used to supply contras 
in southern Nicaragua, if you heard about that, you would 
want to become more informed about that topic, wouldn't 
you? 

A Yes, in the sense you always want to build up 
your body of knowledge of what it is, the capabilities of 
the contras and Sandinistas. 

Now, as I say, you keep compli cating this issue 
by saying^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H- Well , ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
isn't an official -- there is explicit letters signed by 

JlMCUOOinrn 



40 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

t1 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

16 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



^}00^ 



39 




the President hammered out between Department of State and 
the Central Intel-ligence Agency that specifies who does what 
to whom and who has a right to know. If the CI^ 

[conducts in any manner any kind of representations on 
behalf of the U.S. Government or acting in the U.S. Govern- 
ment capacity to make this happen, he is conducting an 
operation within the area of authority, the ambassador 
has a total right to know about. 

So if the ambassador doesn't know, theni 

[is in serious violation of a hammered-out 
agreement. If the ambassador does know, then] 
I has not violated that. 

But then what happens after that is a whole 
different function. I teach a course at the State Depart- 
ment for new U.S. ambassadors. We go through the letters 
of the President, the letters of the Secretary of State. 
These agreements are modified by every President. There 
is enough body of experience out there to be able to 
tell. A CIA^^^H^^^^^^fcannot operate in that kind of 
manner, without informing him and concurrence of the 
ambassador. 

Q If the ambassador knows about it and it is a 
significant matter, the regional assistant secretary should 
know about it likewise; isn't that correct? 




Should. 



mmim 



41 



6 

7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

:9 

20 

21 I 

22' 

23 

24 

25 



UNsemED 



40 



1 MR. SMILJANICH: That's all. 

2 



. , '• • 1 ' 

MR. TRAYLOR: No questions. 



(Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the deposition was 
4 I adjourned . ) 

5 



IIWfUMicirB 



42 



STENOGRAPHIC MINUTES 
UnnriMd >i«d UiMdtod 
Not for Qootatloa or 
DnyUcition 



UNGLASSIRED 



r 



0(»YNO-J .JQF ^m-JCOHtt 



Partially Declassified/Released on ^^J-4< <-^8S 

under ofovision-j ol E.O 12356 
by K Johnson. National Sscunty Council 



Ck>mmittee Hearings 
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 




W 



OFFICE OF THE CLERK ^^10^' 

Offleo of OiBdal Reporters ^J-*-*^^^""^ 



43 



UNCLASSIHED 



NAHE: HIR0314002 |l|l|| I IIVVIblLII PAGE 1 



RPJS BOYUH 
DCHM SPRADLIHG 

DEPOSITION or DAVID P. HULLIGAH 

Monday, February 2, 1987 

and Tuesday, February 3, 1987 

House of Representatives, 
Select Connittee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with 
Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 

The select committee met, pursuant to call, at 11=00 a.m. 
at Headquarters, Southern Air Transport, Venadades Building, 
6th Floor, Miami International Airport, Miami, Florida, 
Charles Tleier, Special Deputy Chief Counsel to the Select 
Committee, presiding. 



Partially Declassified/Released on * ZjM-t 08S 
under orouisions o( E 12356 
by K Johnson. Nalional Security Council 



UNCIASSIHED 



44 



UNCIASSIHED 



KAHE: HXR03((002 llllll.l U.A.Ainril PAGE 2 



HR. TIEFER- Let's go on the record. 
My name is Charles Tieier I am Special Deputy Chiei 
Counsel of the House Select Committee to Investigate Covert 
Arms Transactions with Iran, pursuant to House Resolution 
^2, 100th Congress, First Session. 

If the witness would take the oath at this point. 

Whereupon, DAVID P. flULLIGAN, after having been 
first duly sworn, was called as a witness and testified as 

follows : 

HR. TIEFER- Mr. tlulligan, if you would state your 
name and address. 

THE WITNESS: David Phillips Mulligan, 4HM 

KR. TIEFER: ue will adjourn your deposition until 
tomorrow. 

[Whereupon, at 11:04 a.m., the select committee was 
adjourned, to reconvene at 1=00 p.m. on Tuesday, February 3, 
1987. 1 



ONCUSSIflEB 



45 



KAHE: HIR03t4002 



^msim 



RPTS BOYUH 
DCHN SPRADLING 
[1:00 p.n. ) 

MR. TIEFER: Kr . Mulligan, you raoall yest«tday I 
introduced nysoli on tha record, and you were sworn and you 
gave your nana and address . 

THE WITNESS: Yas . 

MR. TIEFER: You understand that you are still 
testifying subject to that oath. 

THE HITKESS: Yes. 

HR. TIEFER: And that tha oath requires you to 
testify truthfully subject to tha penalty of perjury. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. TIEFER: 
Q If wa could go through your background, starting 
with your education briefly, and what jobs you held 
successively after you graduated? 

A I was born and raised in New Britain, Connecticut. 
I attended Darrow School in New Lebanon, New York, Colgate 
Unlvttrsity in Hamilton, New York, and after college I 
obiminad my pilot's licenses and in 1968 I want to work for 
Overseas National Airways whose headquarters was in New 
York. 



UNClASSra 



46 



NAME: 
6U 
65 
66 
67 
68 
69 
70 
71 
72 
73 
7M 
75 
76 
77 
78 
79 
80 




HIR03X002 IflVUI H.l.liriPIl PAGE (« 

I worked with Overseas iTational until 1976, in 1977 
I joined Air Florida, in 1978 I became the Chief Pilot, in 
1979 I becane Staff VP of Flight Operations, in 1980 1 
became Corporate VP, Flight Operations, and resigned that 
position on 19 — March of 1984 to join Southern Air Transport 
as Senior Vice President of Operations. 
Currently X hold that position. 

2 How did you come to decide to come to Southern Air 
Transport? 

A I had known on a personal level Bill Langton for 
five years, not intimately but we were acquaintances and 
Bill joined Southern in 1983, moved to Miami, we renewed our 
relationship and he a number of times had asked me to join 
the company. X weighed the decision. Air Florida's 
financial fortunes did not look altogether too promising at 
that time, so X decided to take him up on his offer and that 
was six months prior to them entering into Chapter 1 1 . 



UNCUSSIHED 



47 



UNCLASSIHED 



NAME- HIR03'4002 

81 DCHN HILTON 

82 

83 2 All tight. Do you cetain currently your pilot's 

8>4 license? 

85 A No. I still have a valid pilot's license, but I do 

86 not naintain ''currency-'' 

87 C One oi the prinary purposes o£ our relatively short 

88 deposition today is going to be to show you a lot of 

89 docunents and to try to identify then. They have been 

90 previously produced by Southern Air Transport to the House 

91 investigation. 

92 You should study them as long as you feel the need, 

93 but you may find that you are not going to be questioned 
914 closely on each line of them. 

95 . A All right. 

96 . 2 I show you documents numbered >419 through 1130, and 

97 ask you if you recognize the type of form. 

98 A U19, this is an accounting form that goes to the 

99 CAB or DOT now. I think either Finance or Bob pSrson puts 

100 this together. I'm not sura. Finance Department, I guess. 

101 I don't normally deal with these forms. That will take you 

102 all tha way from U19 through ^30. 

103 . ~ e You may not normally deal with them. Do you deal 
lOU with them enough to understand them? 

105 A Z think I am intelligent enough to read it and 



Mmm 



48 



UNCLASSIHED 



NAHE' HIX03U002 tlllUl.flULlll ll_U P^^X 



106 

107 
108 
109 
1 10 
1 1 1 
112 
113 

im 

115 
1 16 
1 17 
1 18 
119 
120 
121 
122 
123 
12i| 
125 
126 
127 
128 
129 
130 



unijl«rstand It but I don't d«al anough — X don't avsn daal ulth 
th«B at all. but It is pratty salf-axplanatoxy . 

e I nay ask you If you ara faniliar with soma oi tha 
flights that axa idantlilad on It. 

A Okay. 

e Thay happan to hava bean producad in ravaxsa 
chronological ordar, so I will start at tha back and coma 
forward. That saams a littla odd. 

Paga 1428, which is tha earliar shaat. 

A Yes. 

2 On Una 2U there is a notation about a B-707 
flight. 

A Yes. 

An ^**^^^A 
A Yes. 

S Are you familiar with that flight? 
A Hhat is the data of operation? 

fi You see the form in tha upper right corner with a 
period, ending December 31, 1985. 

A But I don't hava a date for that. 

e If your answer is that without a specific date you 
would not be familiar with the flight, then— 
. ~ A That is a fair statement. 
S All right. 

X may then forego the rest of them because there 



Mussra 



49 



NAnE: 
131 
132 
133 
IBM 
135 
136 
137 
138 
139 

mo 
mi 

1M2 
1143 
lUM 

145 

me 
m? 
ms 

1149 
150 
151 
152 
153 
15<4 
155 



uNcussm 



HIR03.002 UllUL/tUOiriLU "" ' 

aia. no dates of spsciiic flights on any of then. I will not 

mark this as an exhibit; the witness did not recognize then. 

I shou you document 1783 and 178i4, and ask you if 
you recognize this type of form. 

A Yes, our standard aircraft log for the 707. 

Q If you could start in the upper left corner and 
work your way through explaining what each block of 
infornation means, it is not so much the particular flight 
being of any great significance as to explain what the 
columns on the form mean generally. 

A You want me to go through every block? 

2 You can do it in a way that it doesn't take a long 
time, that would be fine. 

A I think some are self-explanatory, date, type of 
aircraft, the tail number. 

Q Let's slow down. Do you know what the date 
signifies on this form? 

A This is the date of operation for this particular 
flight, or flights if more than one are listed on the log. 

2 And the aircraft type? 

A 707. 

2 And going to the next column, what is that? 
. ' A That is the registration number of the aircraft, in 
this case November, 525 Sierra Juliet. 

2 Who provides those tail numbers? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



50 



KAHE: 
156 
157 
158 
159 
160 
161 
162 
163 
16>4 
165 
166 
167 
168 
169 
170 
171 
172 
173 
17M 
175 
176 
177 
178 
179 
180 



HIR03U002 



UNCUSSinED 



PAGE 



8 



- A They axe assigned pexitanently to the aircraft by 
the FAA. 

fi Does Southern Air Transport register each aircraft? 

A Yes. 

Q And is the number provided when registration 
occurs? 

A Yes, and in this case what Southern Air Transport 
has done is we have with the FAA reserved a block of numbers 
so they are sequentially issued at our request, so our 707s 
are 523, S2U, 525> if we put additional airplanes on, they 
will be 526, 527. So we have a block of numbers reserved 
for Southern Air. 

fi Are you familiar with the--even in a general 
way — with the requirements of the FAA as far as registration, 
what must be registered and what does not have to be 
registered? 

A In a general way. 

S Is Southern Air Transport required to register a 
plane as soon as it purchases the plane or as soon as it 
operates the plane or for what it is required to register 
the plane? 

A It would be prior to operating the aircraft the 
airplane must be registered. If we purchase an airplane it 
does not necessarily have to be registered by U.S. 
registration. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



51 



181 

182 
183 
18>4 
185 
186 
187 
188 
189 
190 
191 
192 
193 
19it 
195 
196 
197 
198 
199 
200 
201 
202 
203 
20<t 
205 



UNCUSSIFIED 



HXR03U002 III1II.I 11 X >l»>li*ll PAGE 9 

As an axanple. ii ua lalised an airplane from a 
fozalgn country, the law now onables us to operate that 
airplane with a foreign registration without converting it 
to U.S. registration, providing the bilaterals between the 
two countries pernit it. 

S Do you have to register a plane ii you are not 
going to operate it within the United States? 

A Yes. 

C But will operate it overseas? 

A If we put it on our operations specifications, it 
has to be registered to the company. Or let me restate 
that; that is not exactly the case. It has to be listed in 
ouz operations specif icatiojis but the airplane can still be 
registered to a third party. 

fi Once you register a plane with the FAA, what 
further information does the FAA require you to provide as 
the plane is being operated? Do you have to give them 
information on each flight that is made? 

A No. 

8 Do you have to make periodic reports? 

A No. 

e Do you have to do anything to maintain the currency 
of 'the registration? 

A I think it is renewed either on an annual or 
biannual basis. I am not sure. 



UNCIASSIFIED 



52 



206 
207 
208 
209 
210 
211 
212 
213 

2m 

215 
216 
217 
218 
219 
220 
221 
222 
223 
22M 
225 
226 
227 
228 
229 
230 



BNCUSSIflfi) 



HAHE: HIX03U002 . IIIWl.l f I \ \ ILlL 11 PAGE 10 



. . e And — 

A Thtt reglstzation does expire and the exact term oi 
it I an not sure. I can't offhand recall. 

2 Southern Air Transport were periodically — 

A Renews registrations. 

fi Hho within Southern Air Transport handles that? 

A Our Engineering Departnent which is a part of 
naintenance . 

8 Continuing on with the fom then, reading across in 
the upper right corner, there is a nunber. 

A Yes. 

fi Hhat is the significance of that nxinber? 

A You are talking ab,out in this case 2526? 

8 Yes. 

A That is a — that identifies that particular log page 
nunber. they are sequentially going to, you go to the next 
one, it is 2527, that is in order to ensure the wholeness of 
the docunent so in other words, from a maintenance 
standpoint, you can't — this provides there will be no missing 
pages. In other words, ii the page is used for maintenance 
only and does not reflect a flight, it will be written on 
th« page, maintenance only, but it ensures that when the 
doduaents aza turned over to another party, that they are 
whole . 

fi When you say the whole doctiment, what is the 



UNCLASSIHED 



53 



NAHE : 
231 
232 
233 
23U 
235 
236 
237 
238 
239 
240 
2<41 
2(42 
243 
2UU 
2MS 
2146 
247 
248 
249 
250 
251 
252 
253 
254 
255 



HIR034002 



UNCUSSinED 



PAGE n 



ralationship of sequential pages to each othet? Is it the 
san* aircraft, the sane company, the same day? 

A No, you get a--this log book tepcesents about 50 
pages and I think it is 50 pages. In this case probably 
2501 to 2550 uere issued to this airplane. Once that log 
book is used up, it will be issued another log book, also go 
sequentially nunbared pages, but not necessarily following 
in this order. 

2 Okay. Let's go on. We go back to the left side of 
the page. Would you explain the boxes, the blocks on the 
left side of the page? 

A We have captain's nana, initial, employee name > 
number, his signature. 

2 Those can you — can you tall me who those relate to--I 
don't mean the particular person. Will it be one person who 
has a number and signature? 

A No. if you go across, captain's name is first, 
followed by his first initial, followed by his company 
employee number. And the captain is required to. is the 
only one required to sign the log page. That is his 
signature . 

li you continue across on the blanks that are not 
filled In, ACn stands for additional craw member, last name, 
initial, employee name and number. Obviously, in this case, 
up on those lines there was nobody onboard. You go down to 



iimsim 



54 



UNCUSSIRED 



HAHE: HIR03U002 ^^ • « Wkf I^Uf 1 1 ■■ ■■ PAGE 12 



256 

257 
258 
259 
260 
261 
262 
263 
26t| 
265 
266 
267 
268 
269 
270 
27 1 
272 
273 
2714 
275 
276 
277 
278 
279 
280 



tha- next line, that is the first officer, his initial, his 
enployee number, and the next one it says ACM. In this 
case. HcDermott. he was load master on this flight, his 
employee number, and then ACMs are blank there. 

Then you go to the next line, that is the flight 
engineer, his initial, his employee number, and then ACMs 
are left blank because those constituted the only people 
onboard the airplane. 

Q Now, can you explain to me the significance of the 
employee numbers? Who assigns them? Are they reported to 
the Government in any way? 

A Ho, they are employee numbers. Hhat is the mystery 
with that? 

S Southern Air Transport gives each employee a 
number? 

A Yes. 

2 Do they give each employee a number whether he is a 
person who flies planes or not? 

A All employees have employee numbers . 

S And they don't — to your knowledge, is Southern Air 
Transport required to inform FAA of who its employees are 
and what the numbers are? 
. " A Ho. 

S Continuing on the form, where it says ''flight 
number'' and on to the right, if you explain what those 



UNCLASSIHED 



55 



KAHE: 
281 
282 
283 
2814 
285 
286 
287 
288 
289 
290 
291 
292 
293 
29>4 
295 
296 
297 
298 
299 
300 
301 
302 
303 
30(4 
305 



HIR03<4002 



blocks are. 



UNCUssm 



PAGE 13 



K ''Flight number'' in this case, the nunber assigned 
to this trip was 525, and the routing is from Brownsville, 
Texas, to Lisbon. ''Out'' means the time it blocked out 
under its own power; ''ofi'' means the time oi lift-oif; 
''on'' means the time of landing, and ''in'* means the time 
it stopped at the gate or wherever it parked. 

2 The flight number, would you explain the 
significance of that? 

A In this case it appears this was a ferry flight, so 
for flight number, we just assign the last, the tail number 
of the airplane becomes the flight number in that case. 

C And the blocks as you continue along? 

A Total flight, total block, the flight was a 
duration of 9.2 airborne, that is wheels ofi to wheels on. 
The block time, that is from out to in, was 9.6 hours. 

The next column, it says LNDS, with the C and F 
under that column, with a line through the F indicates that 
the first officer made the landing. 

2 What would a mark in the other column be? 

A Heans the captain made the landing. Fuel added in 
smllons was not recorded there, but I would have to presume 
the'y added iuel. So I don't know why they didn't add it 
here . 

The next one is fuel onboard in pounds. When they 



UNCLASSIHED 



56 



KAHE = 

306 
307 
308 
309 
310 
31 1 
312 
313 
31it 
315 
316 
317 
318 
319 
320 
321 
322 
323 
32(4 
325 
326 
327 
328 
329 
330 




HIR03'<002 UIWIII M.^.IIFIfcll PAGE 1M 
blocked out of Brownsville, tKe"^TRd 138,000 pounds of fuel. 
Hhan they arrived at Lisbon, they had 29,000 pounds of fuel 
remaining. They added, oil added to the various engines, 
and it shows that there was no oil added. That is about all 
you can say for going across there. 

S2 Go right ahead on the next line underneath. 

A Mileage? 

e Yes. 

A Mileage is the total air mileage between 
Brownsville and Lisbon. Renew cargo shows no entry, so it 
was a ferry flight; it was enpty. 

There was a delay out of Brownsville for seven 
hours and looKs like 50 minutes for maintenance. 

fi Could we slow down? On revenue cargo, if there is 
a number in there, what would the number signify? 

A Total weight of the freight. 

2 In pounds? 

A In pounds . 

2 Okay. You were saying about delay length. 

A There was a delay of seven hours, 50 minutes for 
soa* maintenance reason. It doesn't specify. 

fi Skipping down to the lower left corner, can you 
exp'laln what each of the entries in the lower left corner 
signify? 

A This page, et cetera? 



uNCiASSire 



57 



NAME: 
331 
332 
333 
334 
335 
336 
337 
338 
339 
3>«0 
3(41 
3<42 
343 
344 
345 
3U6 
347 
348 
349 
350 
351 
352 
353 
354 
355 



HIR034002 



JNClASSra 



PAGE 15 



A It is scratched out but it appaais it is 44,000, 
uhatavat. That was total time that had been ilown o-n that 
aircraft prior to this flight. 

Then the next entry is 9.2 and if you look up, that 
corresponds with the total flight up above. You add that to 
the 44,000 and odd hours and that gives you a neu total, and 
it gives you the ability to correct on that page for 
arithmetical mistakes . 

fi And in the lower right corner? 

A Okay. It indicates that an A check was completed-- 

2 Is that a particular type of maintenance? 

A Yes, that is a very minor, minor check, basically a 
glorified preflight check. 

Q Fine. Let's skip the rest of the blocks. If you 
look at the following page, page 1784, and just look at the 
routing . 

A Yes. 

e Or at any other columns helpful to you. Is this a 
continuation of the same flight of the same aircraft? That 
is on page 1783. 

A Yes. 
. ' fi And you know that because? 

A Two reasons: one, the dates, it is the next date, 
and the sequence of the log page numbers. 



UNCIASSIHED 



58 



NAHE 
356 
357 
358 

359 
360 
361 
362 
363 
36<( 
365 
366 
367 
368 
369 
370 
371 
372 
373 
374 
375 
376 
377 
378 
379 
380 



HZX03it002 



BHBJiSSinHI 



PACK 16 



e Okay. Do you also hava to chaok that tha tail 
nuabat Is tha saaa? 

k Yas. You'would do that, too. sura. 

fi Can you dasczlba tha coutlng oi this naxt illght of 
tha Sana plana? 

A Yas, dapaztlng Lisbon and want to Santa Hazla In 
tha Azozas; fzoa tha Azoras want to Antigua; Antigua, It 
want to KOP--thay had a mechanical. It Is probably Kingston. 

Q How do you know it is a machanlcal? 

A Dava just ranindad iia wa had a problaa. I forgot 
about that. 

fi Can you tall anything iron what is writtan thaza 
that you had a aaehanlcal?- 

A Ko. X can't saa it haza unlass I a> missing 
sonathing obvious. 

fi Don't wozk on it. Z an mostly tzylng to undazstand 
tha significanca oi each block oi lattazs . 

FzoB tha ANU, that signiiias Antigua? 

A Yas. 

fi Doas tha H^KP signify Kingston? 

A Yas. 

fi 1£ you would ■ contlnua on with tha illght. 

A Pzoa Kingston thay want to, looks likaJ 
zecollaction oi that flight was that it want to 
tha cozzact daslgnatoz, thzaa-lattaz designator ioz 



but my 




UNCLASSIFIED 



NlHKi HZtOSMOOa 
381 
382 
383 
38(( 
385 
386 
387 
388 
389 
390 
391 
392 
393 
39«l 
395 
396 
397 
398 
399 
KOO 
U01 
■402 



wiASsra 



P»GK 17 



was^^^H 1 think th« or*M didn't know It and thay 

up wlth^^^^^^^^^^H. Froa ^^^^^^Hthay 
iarxlad to Bzounsvllla. 

e Okay. Who, baioza wa gat on with that, who fills 
out this fozB and uhan do thay fill it out? 

A Ganatally, it is tha copilot fills it out, and tha 
flight anginaar will naka soiia anttias. and tha captain will 
sign it, ganazally spaaking. 

e Is ona copy mada or aota than ona copy? 

A No, thaza aza about thzaa oz fouz copias. 

8 Hhar^ doas aaoh go? 

A Tha yalloH copy comas to OPS, tha pink stays in tha 
book with tha aizplana foz a paziod of tiaa, and tha whita 
gats mallad to salntananca oz want into aalntananca. Hiami 
malntananca . 

fi Hhat doas OPS do uith it, and what do you mean by 
OPS? 

A Opazations. ^ay taka tha timas off tha log sheat 
to vazify that thalz antrlas that thay raoozd down thaza aza 
cozzact, foz bookkaaping. 

fi Anything alsa? 

A Yas, thay stay thaza for about 90 days. 



WNcwssife 



60 



HAHE: HIR03'4002 ||ll|l I ||\\|hll*ll P^^^E 18 



U03 
UOU 
U05 
(406 
1407 
1408 
409 
■410 
41 1 
412 
413 
414 
415 
416 
417 
418 
419 
420 
421 
422 
423 
424 
425 
426 
427 



PNCUSSIFIED 



RPIS BOYUr 
DCHN PARKER 

fi Do they make copies to provide to anybody? 

A Not unless somebody requests it. Haintenance has 
their copies, and they distribute it. Their copies within 
the maintenance organization, planning needs them ior 
records and quality control needs them, people like that, 
standard housekeeping chores. 

2 Do any copies go to the government? 

A Ko. 

2 Does the government ever come around to Inspect 
these? 

A Yes. 

2 Under what circtimstances? 

A Primarily as a maintenance function. They just 
check to see if you are maintaining the airport in 
accordance with the F ARs . They can do that by checking log 
book pages. They check write-ups and sign-oiis to see if 
there are proper sign-off s on discrepancies, things of that 
nature. 

They check to see if you have not overgone any 
ohaok Intervals . 

e That would be done by the FAA? 

A Yes, maintenance people within the 7AA that are 
assigned to us. 



Mussm 



61 



HAHE 
1*28 
(•29 
USO 
i<31 
t32 
1433 
1(34 
U35 
1436 
1437 
438 
(439 
14(40 
14m 
t4M2 
Mt43 
141414 
14(45 
14(46 
1447 
(4148 
449 
450 
451 
452 



HIR03>4002 



UNcussm 



PAGE 19 



2 Hava other government agencies such as Customs ever 
cone around to inspect Southern Air Transport aircraft for 
violations that you know--logs that you now? 

A Aircraft logs? Hot that I am aware of. Not to say 
it hasn't happened, but I don't Know what they would get out 
of aircraft logs. 

2 Is the information entered by any department into 
data processing? 

A Yes, record keeping. 

2 Uhich department does that? 

A Our data processing depaztnent takes the master 
log, takes the log and enters it in. There is an individual 
that is assigned to that function. 

2 But does operations provide then a copy from which 
to work or does maintenance provide them a copy from which 
to work? Who provides the copy to the data processing 
section? 

A I think maintenance provides than a copy. 

2 And is all the information put on computer or only 
soma? 

A Just soma of it. Time is, names of crew members. 

e Is tha routing put on data processing? 

A Yas. 

2 Do you know hou long tha information Is maintained 
on data processing? 



nfimim 



62 



'WfiUjJ/flfj 



KAHZ' MIK03II002 If III af 11 \ %. ILf ff ffl P^^GS 20 

**S3 • ; * H®' 

i(5<< 8 Do you hav« any Idaa whathar it is box* than a yaax 

<4S5 oz lass than that? 

US6 A I don't know. 

1(57 8 Okay. Kow, aza you iamiliaz with this pazticulaz 

(458 flight that is zacordad? So you zacollact it oz hava soiia 

1*59 knowladga of it? 

M60 A Soma vagua zacollaotion. 

(46 1 8 What is youz zacollaotion? 

<462 A Not much — Z zamambaz that ha had, aitaz ha got out 

■463 of Antigua that ha had a pzoblam zatzaoting tha gaaz, and Z 

*t6t can't zamambaz whathaz it was tha nosa gaaz oz whatavaz tha 

<(65 pzoblam was. and that is why ha did go into Kingston, and 

166 avidantly got tha pzoblam fixad in Kingston, and than 

<467 pzocaadad on to^^^^^^Band was abla to gat full at 

U68 ^^^^^^Hand fazzy 

>t69 I know of no othaz unusual zacollaotions about tha 

«»70 flight. 

i|71 8 As pazt of youz supazvision of opazations. aza you 

>I72 awaza what oazgos. ganazally spaaklng, aza cazziad. whathaz 

U73 thay aza. say. hazazdous oz non-hazazdous? 

>(7it A Somatimas . somatlmas thay aza not. Ha hava an 

>(75 awful lot of flights avazy day. and thaza aza pzobably a 

176 numbaz of flights opazating zight now that has hazazdous 

(477 matazial on tham. but I am not awaza of it. 



cNMs/fe 



63 



KAHE 
U78 

U79 
>480 
U81 
1*82 
<I83 
M8(4 
M85 
M86 
1487 
488 
(t89 
1(90 
(491 
((92 
1(93 
U9i( 
1(95 
1(96 
1(97 
498 
1(99 
500 
501 
502 




HiRoauooa iflBf .1 #l % Y|l |r-|| page 21 

2 Thera is no s'pTcff'l* l£iaJ±orn that signifies the 
natura oi the cargo; is that corract? 

A Ho . 

Q Do you kaap other iorms--does operations keep other 
forms that reflect the nature of the cargo? 

A Well, on international flights you have the 
shippers export documents. You will have HAZMAX forms-- 

2 Slou down. You are using shorthand again. 
Shippers export documents. 

A Yes, SEDZ. 

2 Go ahead, the other ona? 

A You Hill have HAZMAT approvals. 

e Hhat is a HAZHAT. 

A I don't know what the form number is, but it is a 
form that allows you to go on if you are doing an 
international operation. 

HR. VAN CLEVE: Is this short for hazardous 
materials? 

THE HZTNESS: Yas . 

HR. VAN CLEVE: This is probably through the 
Cowaazca Department. 

THE HITNESS: It is FAA, I believe. 
BY MR. TIEFER! 

2 Hhat other forms reflect the nature of the cargo? 

A The cargo manifests, and if there is an airway bill 



ONCLASSIFIEO 



64 



KAHE: 

503 
504 
505 
506 
507 
508 
509 
510 
51 1 
512 
513 
51it 
515 
516 
517 
518 
519 
520 
521 
522 
523 
524 
525 
526 
527 



HIR0314002 



VNCIASSIFIED 



PAGE 22 



to .cover the freight. 

S Which oi these — let's go back to each shippers 
export form. Hho in Southern Transport prepares that? 

A It depends on whose-- 

2 Which department? 

A In some cases the Sales Departnent handles them. 
In other times. Systems Operations has handled them. 

2 Which is your department? 

A Which is my department. One of my departments. It 
can vary. 

Q Can you explain when your department does it and 
another department does it? 

A In the case--that is a pretty good question. 
BY MR. KIRSTZIN: 

2 Can I check with him? 
MR. TIEFER: Sure. 
BY nR. KIRSTEIH: 

2 The shippers export document would only relate to a 
flight from the U.S. to somewhere, so it wouldn't have been 
prepared in connection with a flight like this. 

A The other one you ask--who does it, you know, that 
is a very good question, because there have been times when 
either the department has done it for no particular reason 
that I can recall, and I don't get that intimately involved 
in it, in my little area. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



65 



HARE 
528 

529 
530 
531 
532 
533 
534 
535 
536 
537 
538 
539 
5110 

5m 

542 
51*3 
541* 
545 
546 
547 
548 
549 
550 
551 
552 



HIR03U002 



VNIUSSIFIED 



PAGE 23 



. _ fi Does the shipper prepare it for hinself sonetime? 
A Yas> the shipper can provide a lot of it. 

BY HR. TIEFER: 
C I won't go through the complete routing of those 
documents. Do you have a knowledge of whether the shippers 
export document, when you have it within SAT, is put m data 
processing ? 

A It probably is not. I can't imagine why it would. 
2 Then there is a hazardous materials form. Who 

within SAT prepares that? 

■«t»y 

A Bob Person usually handles that. 

Oi 

Q What is his position? 

A He' is director of systems operations. 

8 So he works under you? 
A Yes. 

9 And is that form put on data processing? 
A No. 

2 Cargo manifests, who prepares that? 

A The shipper. 

2 Does a copy come to Southern Air Transport? 

A Yes. 

fi Who keeps it? 

. - A He Keep a copy in operations for about 90 days, and 
then dispose of it. 

2 And the airway bill, what is the airway bill? What 



J 



UNCiASSire 



66 



UNcussro 



Hxni- HiR03i4002 Ullul Mai>ili Ir II paqe 2M 



553 

ssn 

555 
556 
557 
558 
559 
560 
561 
562 
563 
5614 
565 
566 
567 
568 
569 
570 
571 
572 
573 
S7<4 
575 
576 
577 



is it for? 

A I aa not sales, and legally I don't know exactly 
what it is, but — 

HR. KIRSTEIN: You axe the witness. 
BY MR. TIEFER! 

e Let ne explain on that point. There may be 
questions where someone else in the company would know much 
better than you. 

A Bob Mason would know that. 

2 No doubt. 

A Speciiically , what an airway bill and the legal 
requirements for it are, I don't know. 

2 Nevertheless, I may ask you if you have knowledge 
and even if your knowledge is much less than anyone else's, 
I would like to have your knowledge. What is your knowledge 
of what an airway bill is? 

A It is a piece of--a form that accompanies the 
freight listing, what the freight is and the numbers 
assigned to that shipment, and I guess it is used for 
tracking purposes. 

fi Down where that goes on data processing within 
Southern Air Transport? 
. ~ A Ko. I don't believe it does. 

fi To youx Knowledge is there any form kept on data 
processing in Southern Air Transport which records the name 



mmm 



67 



HIROaUOOZ 



UNGUSSIFIED 



PAGE 25 



NAME 

578 of -a cargo being shipped? 

579 A To my Knowledge, no. 

580 S Let's leave the world of iotms. 

581 A Good. 

582 2 And cone to a set of documents that were produced 

583 to us in the nature oi an Iran iile . We will take thera one 

584 by one. I will show you page 787 and ask you if you 

585 recognize it. 

586 BY HR. KIRSTEIN: 

587 8 If you have never seen it before that is an 

588 acceptable answer. 

589 A I think I have . I think I have. 

590 BY HR. TIEFER: 

591 fi What can you tell me about it? Not deducing it 

592 from what you see, but your sense of it from your 

593 recollection. For one thing, do you recognise the 
59it handwriting? 

595 A Yes. I think it is. I believe this writing is Bob 

596 PoEtrson's. 

597 MR. TIEFKR: Let's mark the previous two forms that 

598 u* discussed, 1783 and 178>4 as Exhibit 1 in this deposition. 

599 [The following document was marked as Exhibit DPK-1 

600 fox' identification: ] 
601 

602 xxxxxxxxxx INSERT 1B-1 xxxxxxxxx/ 



UNCUSSiriED 



68 



KAHE: 
603 
SOU 
605 
606 
607 
608 
609 
610 
611 
612 
613 
61U 
615 
616 
617 
618 
619 
620 
621 
622 
623 
62U 
625 
626 
627 



HIR03((002 



UNGUiSSIHED 



PAGE 26 



... THE WITNESS : The only problam I have is that this 
foXB has no date on it> but I an — I think I an familiar with 
this piece oi paper. 

BY HR. TIEFER: 

e Okay. 

A Do you want me to talk away at it? 

e Sure. 

A I don't recall the dates or I can't even vaguely 
pinpoint it right now, but this was probably used in 
discussions on a trip that I had up to Hashington regarding 
these exact routings that were shown here. 



So it was prepared by Bob Poirson. 

Po'irson, P-0-I-R-S-O-H. 

For you to take with you? 

Yes. 

And what was the purpose o£ preparing it? What was 



2 
A 

e 

A 

S 
it for? 

A He were just discussing whether we could indeed fly 
these trips, whether we had the aircraft available within 
certain windows to actually complete them within a given 
time. That is especially for the 707 and the Here. The L- 
100 Mas just an exercise. Z don't recall. There was some 
discussion about using a Hero, but Z think the price was too 
high. 

The payload was too low. Zt was not a good value. 



UNCUSSIHED 



69 



NAHE' HIR03>4002 



UNCUSSIRED 



PAGE 27 



628 
629 
630 
631 
632 
633 
6314 
635 
636 
637 
638 
639 
6U0 
61(1 
6142 
6143 
614 14 
61(5 
646 
647 
6148 
6(49 
6S0 
651 
652 



. _ fi It may ba usaful b«iore ua go through all thesa 
docuaants-- 

A Tall you what, I have a battar recollection now. I 
ranembaE seeing this, but this is not a form that I used, 
not a trip I made. I think it was some other people made 
it, now that I think about it, because I had made some trips 
to Washington and discussed these very things, but not with 
this form because, as I recall, I did mine over the phone. 

C All right. I don't want to 90--excuse me. I don't 
want to go at this time into a lot of detail about the Iran 
flights, but since we will be showing you a lot of Iran 
documents, it might be useful if I asked you to give like a 
3 to 5-minute description of your sequence whan you learned 
that there were going to be such flights, what your part was 
in them, not to gat a lot of detail, but so the documents 
will make some sense. 

Each document is not a coherent chronology of the 



story . 
A 

2 

A 

e 

A 



Okay. I don't have a John Dean maaory. 

Hall, wa can't all be John Daan. Go right ahead. 

You want ma to give you the 3 to 5 now? 

Suza. 

Wall, with that ptafaca, I an vary sketchy on 



dates, but Bill Langton, our President, approached me about 
doing soma operations into Iran. At that tine, the cargo 



iinmim 



70 



UNCLASSIHED 



NAHKi HIt03il002 UlllJI_nULlll II^U PAGX 28 

653 uas unspaolilttd. M* talkad about alzczait routing > how ha 

65<4 could do lt> and at a lataz data shortly tharaaitar I found 

655 tha point of dapart'ura was Tal Aviv, which was a littla 

656 parplaxing in trying to figura out how wa could routa tha 

657 aizplanas in thara quiatly. 

658 Ha caaa up with a basic gana plan oi down through 

659 tha Rad Saa and up on in. Sonatlma aftar that. I can't 

660 rananbar how long, aayba a month or two, it kind oi diad off 
66 1 and than it caaa back. 

662 Thara was Bora discussion on it. I travalad to 

663 Washington for tha day with Bill Langton and mat with Dick 
66i| Gadd. Furthar discussions on tha subjact — inolusiva, but 

665 discussions'. I think aitax that, I aa a littla skatohy 

666 hara. Paul Gilchrist may hava travalad to Washington to 

667 aaat with Dick Gadd, and Dick Saoord, but I travalad to 

668 Washington with Gilchrist and mat with Dick Gadd and Dick 

669 Sacord and discussad aora datails, and Z aa sorry to adait Z 

670 can't reaaabar whathar wa had alraady — wa had not flown a 

671 trip at this point, but wa had discussions about] 

672 passports at that tiaa, who would ba travaling. 

673 Thay would not say who was going to traval at that 
67it point in tiaa, although wa wara lad to baliava that 

675 Hcrarland was going to aaka a trip. Ha was rafarzad to as 

676 Mr. Good. 

677 Aftar that aaating wa discussad airczaft routings 



UNCUSSIRED 



71 



678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
68<4 
685 
686 
687 
688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
69>4 
695 
696 
697 
698 
699 
700 
701 
702 



HIR03'4002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PACr 29 



and times--hou ue could acconnodata it because we had a real 
shortage of aircraft availability and ue had to jockey our 
systen around in order to acconnodate the trips iron the 
U.S. into Tel Aviv and back. 

Ue were finally able to do that, and basically that 
is it in a nut shell. 

2 That is it for that flight. Here there more than 
one flight to Iran? 

A Yes. and I didn't travel. What basically happened 
is I kind of got out of the hoop on all this because Paul 
was flying the trips. Paul Gilchrist was flying the trips, 
and it was a weight of nanagement, ny tine, to be intimately 
involved because he was going to be doing it and he can 
represent the conpany just as well as I could in these 
discussions, so I kind of got out of it. and most of the 
discussions were between Langton and Gilchrist, to Gadd or 
mainly to Gadd. I guess. 

2 Let's see with that maybe we can fit the documents 
in. 

The document that is page 787 came up at what 
point? 

A I don't recall. This was on a trip that Gilchrist 
and" Tootle made to meet with Gadd. and I don't recall the 
date of that. 

2 Has it in pzepazatlon fox the flight that you just 



«MXs;fjffl 



72 



UNCIASSIRED 



KANE: HIR03t«002 |lll|l| Hllllll ll_IJ ^^'^^ 30 



703 
70H 
70S 
706 
707 
708 
709 
710 
711 
712 
713 
714 
71S 



dtts.czibad? 

X It may hava been. Oz it nay have been another one. 
I don't recall. 

fi Whose writing do you recognize there? 
A The numbers and schedule are Bob Poirson's writing, 
and the names down here in the lower left, that is in Paul 
Gilchrist's handwriting. 
2 Okay. 

HR. TIEFER: Let's mark page 787 as Exhibit 2. 
[The following document was marked as Exhibit DPn-2 
for identification: 1 

xiicxxxxxxx)ir INSERT IB- 2 xxxxxxxxx/ 



DNtussm 



73 



NAHE: HIR03U002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 31 



716 
717 
7 18 
719 
720 
72 1 
722 
723 
72<4 
725 
726 
727 
728 
729 
730 
731 



. . BY MR. TIEFER: 

C I show you pages 788, and 789 and ask you if you 
tttcognize them? 

A 788 I can't even read. No, I don't recognize that, 
e All right. page 789? 
A Yes, I recognize 789. 

2 Can you describe, identify it, explain what it is? 
A This was a list that was prepared by Bob Poirson 
for Paul on questions that he wanted answered on one of his 
trips to Washington, but I don't recall which trip. 

KR. TIEFER: Let's nark page 789 as the next 
exhibit. 

[T>ie following docunent was narked as Exhibit OPn-3 
for identification:] 

xxxxxcxxxxx INSERT 1B-3 xxxxxxxxx/ 



UNCUSSinED 



74 



HAME •• 
732 
733 
731* 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
7140 
741 
7««2 
7U3 
71*4 
71*5 
746 
747 
748 
749 
750 
751 
752 
753 
754 
755 
756 



HIR034002 



UNOASSIFIED 



PAGE 32 



BY HR. TIEFER: 



fi I show you pages 818 thorugh 821 and ask you i£ you 
can identify these.' 

A Yes. I believe this represents Paul's notes on his 
first trip> I believe, first trip to Tel Aviv and then on. 
That is all I know. 

e Do you know what was done with these after he 
prepared these? 

A He prepared these on ATC in our office himself, and 
gave a copy to--let me read it and then give a copy to Bill 
Langton, and then I don't know what happened to them 
thereafter . 

2 Here they ever prepared in a less rough form> ever 
redone? 

A He thought this was pretty rough. I an sure — I 
don't know. I don't want to speak fox Paul. 

2 You have no knowledge of any other version being 
prepared ? 

A Ko. 

HR. TIEFER: Let's mark page 818 through 821 as 
Exhibit 4. 

(The following document was marked as Exhibit DPH-4 
for identification: ] 

xxxxxDcKxxx INSERT 1B-4 xxxxxxxxx/ 



m&m& 



75 



HAKE 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
7614 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 
770 
771 
772 
773 
774 
775 
776 
777 
778 
779 
780 
781 



HIR03M002 



(INCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 33 



. . BY HR. TIEFER: 

Q I show you page 822. Do you recogniza it? 

A No. 

Q I show you paga 823. Do you racogniza that? 

A Unless-- 

C I don't mean to rush you. 

A Well, unless 822 may be the and of Paul's report--! 
think he made some racomnandations , didn't he? 

S All right. On that basis, let's make page 822 a 
iinal paga to the exhibit previously marked. That will be 
part of Exhibit U , DPH-!4. 

Is it possible that page 823 is part of the sane 
document; perhaps not? Do you recognize page 823? 

A Ko , but you want speculation? 

S No, I don't want speculation, but if you have a 
basis for recognizing it, I would be interested. 

A X wouldn't think it would be part of his report, 
although it is a map of that area, and you see these numbers 
written in, those are probably wind velocity and direction 
and temperatures at altitude. 

S You ware not familiar with this, so I won't make it 
an exhibit. 

I will ask you if you recognize page 830. 

A Ko. 

2 I will ask you if you recognize pages 831, to 83U. 



UNCIASSIRED 



76 



NAnE = 
782 
783 

7814 
785 
786 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
7914 
795 
796 
797 
798 
799 
800 
801 
802 
803 
80^ 
805 
806 



HIR0314002 



PGIASSIHED 



PAGE 314 



fi Do you recognize pages 83H and 83i4B? 

A KO/ it is a' standard form we send out on most 
charter flights, but I have not seen this one. I mean, I 
have no need to have seen it. I haven't seen either one of 
these. These are nuts and bolts things that I don't get 
involved with. 

S I understand. From your knowledge of the way this 
matter was run, is it likely that Paul Gilchrist would be 
familiar with these particular documents? 

A He might have seen them, he might not have. 

S I show you a series of documents from 1760 through 
1777, and a&k you if you have seen these. 

A He can give you some numbers. I saw 1762. 

S If you will do it that way, why don't you read the 
name on each form where you know — saw the form? 

A Frank Bell's secrecy oath. 

e Okay. 

A 17614, David P. Mulligan's secrecy oath. Those are 
the only ones I have seen. 

9 Is there a way you can give an explanation as to 
why you saw two in particular, and not the rest? 

. ~ A One was mine. The other one was Frank Bell's who 
is our manager of crew scheduling, and I had him sign it. 
He really had no knowledge of what was going on, but in case 



UNCIASSIFIED 



77 



NAME: HIR03'4002 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 
812 
813 
811 
815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 
821 



CNcussife 



PAGE 35 
ha did, sutnisa what was going on. Ha was now sworn to 
saoracy, but he really didn't have any idea. 

Q Can you explain the background around which you 
caaa to sign such a forii? 

A I think Bill Langton asked ne to sign it. 

At what point in this natter did that occur? 
I can't avan renamber. 

Has it before the flight took place or after? 
I can't even remaabaz. 

HR. TIEFER: Let's nark the two, 1762 and 176M, the 
two you recognized as the next exhibit. 

[The following docunant was narked as Exhibit DPH-S 
for idantifrication: ] 

xxxxxxxxxx XHSERI 1B-5 xxxxxxxxx/ 



UNOASSIHED 



78 



XAHZi 
822 
823 
821) 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
83i( 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8M0 
8il1 
8M2 
8143 
8^>l 
8i|5 
8X6 



HZ»03U002 



DCIfK SIEVKNS 



BNCUJSIfe 



P&GK 36 



BY HR. TZEFKK: 

9 I will show- you a pa9*> 731, which has a nujtbar oi 
naaas and boxas sozt of on a ttaa, you aza not familiar with 
that, you hava not saan this paga bafoza, hava you? 

k No. 

fi But you zacogniza sona of tha nanas? 

A Yas. 

fi Can you say which naaas you taeogniza and whathaz 
thay wozk — whathaz thay hava wozkad at any tima at Southazn 
llr Tzanspozt? 

A I zacogniza Hilliaa Coopaz — 

e AncI ioz aach ona. ii you would say a littla about 
whan you baliavad thay wozkad at Southazn Alz Tzanspozt? 

A Coopaz, to ay knowladga, navaz wozkad at Southazn 
Aiz. 

B Hhat do you zacogniza hiit fzon? 

A Ha was coozdinating tha aaintananca activitias ioz 
tha C-123S and tha C-7s as thay caaa thzough Hiani haading 
south. That is my association with Coopaz. 

wozkad ioz us and Z guass ha want down 
south and did soma maintananca ioz tham down thaza. Ha 
works foz us now. 

I knaw him basically in tha sama 
capacity as Coopaz, actually wozking ioz Coopaz coozdinating 



mm^^ 



79 



Ntnzi 

847 
8<48 
8>49 
850 
851 
852 
853 
854 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 

86 1 
862 
863 
8614 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 

87 1 




HIR03M002 lllllil U.^Airil*ll PtGS 37 
th< aainttnanoa aiatlvltlas, puxohasas, things lik* that. 

9 Did h« avar woiK for Southain Air Transport? 

* No. 

ha ilaw as a craw nanbar for us and than 
was on a laava of absanoa. Ma was not working for us during 
tha parlod down thara. 

I aat onca or twlca. I Knaw hlii only as 
a pilot. Ha navar workad for us. 

Sawyar had workad for Southarn Air as a pilot. 
During this parlod of tlma ha was not anployad by Southarn 
Air. 

I racognlza no othar naaas on that list. I saa an 
^^^^■hara', tha nana is vagualy faalllar to aa as ona of 
our aachanlcs. but I don't know hla and I don't know what 
his status was. 

S ^^^^^Hyou ballava workad for Southarn Air 
Transport? 

A I don't want to say. 

fi No ona alsa on tha list you xacall as having workad 
for Southarn Air Transport? 

A No. 

fi Hlth raspaot to Ht . Sauyar. do you know how ha cama 
to laava Southarn Air Transport and ba aaployad by tha 
oparatlon in Cantral Aaarlca. If you undarstand what I maan 
by tha oparatlon In Cantral Anarlca? 



UNCIASHD 



80 



NAME I 
872 
873 

874 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
88U 
885 
886 
887 
888 
889 
890 
89 1 
892 
893 
894 
895 
896 



HI]103>(002 



UNCUSSffi 



PAGI 38 



i Y«t. Ko. I don't know how that happansd. 
S With zaspact ^^i^^^^^^^^V ^^ ^^^ >^o>' ^^*' ^* cana 
to laava Southazn -Alz Tzanspozt? 
A No. 



No. 



Do you avan zenambaz thasa paopla laaving? 
I zanambaz-- 

HR. KIRSTEIN: I Don't think his tastlaony was that 
avaz laft tha anploy of Southazn Alz. 
THE WITNESS: I don't zanambaz how that was 
handlad. I think ha was just tzansfazzad down thaza oz what 
tha status was. Ha Is still with us. I zamaabaz Sauyaz and 
^laaving . 

BY m. TIEFER) 
e You do? 
A Yas. 

e What do you zaitasbaz about thaa laaving? 
A Thay laft. I itaan. nothing zanazkabla about that. 
Thay laft. 

S Did anyona know whaza thay had gona? 
A No — wall, you pzasuna thay waza down thaza, yes. 
. ' 2 On what basis did you pzasuna that? 

A You knaw sonathing was going on down thaza and thay 
indlcatad to a faw paopla whaza I got it sacond hand that 



UNCUSSIHED 



81 



iiNcujsro 



KAKE: HIR03M002 ^ ■ « ^^bf ItJLill II II PAGE 39 

897 tha.t is whars thay wera and that is whara thay wantad to be. 

898 fi How, had Sawyer as a pilot worked under you, that 

899 is, was ha one of the subordinates of yourself? 

900 . A Well, indirectly through the chief pilots and vice 

901 president, flight operations. 

902 2 I don't know whether you developed an impression or 
• 903 not, did you have any feeling whan one of your people left 

9014 to do something else? 

905 A In Buzz' case, I thought that given the 

906 circumstances it was a natural thing for him to do. 

907 2 And why did you feel that? 

908 A Because I have always viewed Buzz as a soldier of 

909 fortune type. 

910 e Has there something in his background that you knew 

911 that made you view him as a soldier of fortune type? 

912 A Ho. nothing specifically. There wera just an aura 
9 13 about Buzz. 

9 It S Although you have said that you did not recognize 

915 this particular place of paper, a number of names have been 

916 taken from it. let's market it as the next exhibit. 731 will 

917 b« tha next one. 

918 [Tha following document was marked as Exhibit DPn-6 
9 19 for identification: 1 

920 

921 xxxxxxxxxx IKSERT 2-1 xxxxxxxxx/ 



UNCLASSIHED 



82 



NAnE = 
922 
923 
92M 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93U 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
940 
941 
942 
943 
944 
945 
946 



HIR034002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 40 



BY MR. TIEFER! 

2 Charter quotations by Southern Air Transport are or 
are not handled in your department? 

A Not handled. 

Q In whose department are they handled? 

A Sales . 

2 I show you a document, a series of documents irom 
1148 to 1159, I may 90 through them one by one. The top 
one, first, page 1147 and 1148. 

A This is it? 

2 That is it. 

MR. KIKSTEIK: It is the back of a file. 
BY MR. TIEFER: 

2 Let me ask you if it assists you in understanding 
it that my understanding is thatthose are the front and back 
covers of a file. 

A Yes, now that I see this one, I recognize this. 

2 Mould you explain what the file is? 

A I had a very thin file that I labeled innocuously 
as ''charter'' and that was the cover of the file, my front 
cover. This must have been on the back cover. It says the 
back cover, so I have to say it was there. 

. ' S Can you tell the circumstances under which you 
started to keep such a file? 

A Yes. Your dates. Bill Langton told me that Dick 



I 



UNCIASSIHED 



83 



HAHE 

947 
9X8 
9U9 
950 
951 
952 
953 
954 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 
961 
962 
963 
964 
965 
966 
967 
968 
969 
970 
971 



HZR034002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 41 



Gadd had a sciias of trips In order to nova sona cargo, it 
was not sp«cliic what tha cargo was. but it was sansitivra m 
nature is what I was led to believe or actually told, iron 
^^^^^H to Central Araarica, destination unspecified at that 
point . 

Ue at that tima did not operate 707 aircraft and it 
had to be done with a jat airplane because of the payload 
and I think Bill had originally quoted Gadd using the Here, 
but the price was astrononical because it could carry only 
about half, so it was not good acononics . 

Bill asked ma to naka sub-sarvica arranganants > 
actually broker the trip out. So I handled that and became 
tha point o'f contact with Dick Gadd on these trips, and I 
contracted with Arrow Air to do two trips and I don't know 
whether this file--as I recall, I don't have any notes from 
the second trip. I think these all pertained to the first 
trip, but we did two sub-service with Arrow Air. 

X think one was in January, early January. I am 
not sure exactly. I think the other one in February or 
narch. 

fi Did you normally handle sub-charters? 
A No. Ha wanted--this was considered to be very 
san'^itiva in nature and I think that Bill Langton and myself 
were tha only two people in tha company that ware aware of 
these trips and people may have had an inkling of what was 



UNCLASSIFIED 



84 



RIR03il002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE HZ 



NAKK> 

972 going on. but Z think w« woxa th* only two — I can't suaax to 

973 that, but Z ballava h* waxa, thaxa may hava baan somabody 
97>4 alsa, but Z didn't 'tall anybody alsa. although 1 may hava 

975 gottan Bob Poitson involvad with a littla bit oi paziphaxy 

976 information just to halp with soma oi tha azzangamants ioz 

977 Atzow. Z can't zacall. 

978 But in satting him up, Z nagotiatad tha pzica with 

979 Azzow and nagotiatad tha schadula, and Bill Langto^ 

980 nagotiatad tha pzica with Gadd. 

981 S Did you talk to Gadd at all? 

982 A Oh, yas, Z had a lot of oonvazsations with Gadd. 

983 e Did you talk to anyona alsa wozking foz Gadd? 
98U A Pzioz to going or aftaz thay want or — 7 

985 e Start with prior. 

986 A Prior, no. Tha arrangamants initially wara all 

987 with Gadd. Thay oparatad on tha waakands and tha first trip 

988 was dalayad wall ovar 2i| hours ^^^^^^^Hdua to tha fact 

989 that tha fzaight was lata, tha fraight was coming — Z was lad 

990 to baliava tha fraight was coming fl^H|H|^Hand it was 
coming in on ^^^^^^^^^^^| and^^^^^^^^waselosad dua to a 

992 snow storm. 

993 Hhila wa wara axparianoing this dalay. Arrow 

99M obviously was quita upsat baeausa thay had othar things for 

995 thair airplana to do, tha customar was upsat and Dick was 

996 fzuitlassly going through Dick Gadd in Washington baeausa ha 



UNCUSSIFIED 



85 



NkHIi 
997 
998 
999 
1000 
1001 
1002 
1003 
lOOM 
1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 
101 1 
1012 
1013 
101(t 
1015 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 



UNCUSSIHED 



HIX03I4002 UllllLflllllirir II ft^^t U3 
oooildn't 9lva ■• any Iniocaation so what happanad is tha 
cowiunloatlons link Instaad oi using OloK as tha point 9uy> 
I stattad daallng dliactly ulth a contact ovar thara and tha 
guy's nana was Tom Cllnas, or Cllnas. I an not sura. And I 
talkad to hln a nunhar oi tlaas ovar tha waakand, whan It Is 
going to ba raady> at catara. at catara. at catara. 

Thara was an outiit ovar thara also calling through 
trying to gat iniornatlon, just iniornation. a conpany 
callad ''Daiects''> and thara wara soma othar paopla whosa 
nanas do not raadily cona to mind, but thay ara in tha notas 
probably. 

And I nay coniusa — thara wara two trips and thay 
both had problans so Z nay. gat soaa oi tha datalls — 

fi Tha January and tlarch trips you naan? 

A Thay both wara scrawad up. Tha trip in Harch, tha 
custonar wantad a naxinun anount oi payload capacity. It is 
high density iraight, doas not taKa up a lot oi voluna. In 
ordar — tha airplana that thay — that Arrow usad was a stretch 
DC-8 that had 18 pallet positions. The ireight could be 
spread over 13 pallet positions, so in order to conserve 
weight, I told Arrow only ship 13 pallets, don't ship 18. 
you can save iive tines 250 and that can convert to payload. 

Aiter being told unpty-unp tines only to take 13 
pallets when they got ^^^^^^^| there were no pallets. 
They totally blew it and they were late getting there, too. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



86 



UNCLASSIFIED 



N&HSi KZK03il002 VIlVkTIUUII IkM ^'^^^ **** 

1022 . - I forgot how lata thay waia. So It was a zaal 

1023 ilaaoo, with Azrow trying to gat pallats 
102<4 Thalr oradlt was not vary good; thay had to hand 

dalivar a to|^^|^^^^H^^^H|^H oiilca In Kew 

1026 to buy pallats im^ than and as soon as thay had tha nonay 

1027 in hand, tha Maw York ofiica told^^H^^^HHI to ralaasa 

1028 tha anpty pallats to than, bacausa you can't load dizactly 

1029 on tha floor. 

1030 In tha naantina, I aa talking back and forth with 

1031 Ton Cllnas again and ha is aad as a wat han. Ha is saying 

1032 ha is gatting all sorts of prassura from Saoord. and X had 

1033 not prior to that nat Sacord, but ha told u» that ha was an 
103*1 axtranaly impatiant guy and- would not tolarata anything but 

1035 parfaotion and that this was unaooaptabla. and Z said what 

1036 tha hall aa Z supposad to do about it? 

1037 You know, and also sonawhara in thasa# I had ona or 

1038 two convarsatlons and X can't ranaabar tha datails of aithar 

1039 convarsation with this Xlbart Hakla and Z think that was for 
lOUO halping with soaa docxmantation on tha trips, but Z an vary 
lOm vagua on it, vary, vary vagua at that, on that. 

10<«2 fi You wara making all thasa calls froa your offica 

10H3 h«x«7 

lOUU . ~ A Xo, iroa ay hoaa aostly. 

1045 fi Why froa your hoaa? 

1046 A It was tha waakand. 



iimsim 



87 



HIR0314002 



UNClASSre 



PAGE us 



NAME: 

1047 . . How, the calls that lad up to, for the ariangenents 

lOUS and Avarything else, were done during the week irom my 

10U9 oifice, but when everything went to hell in a hand basket, 

1050 it was over the weekend, so most of the calls were from my 

105 1 home . 

1052 S Okay. 

1053 A Most of the arrangements were done from the office. 
lOSU C You had not known Secord before? 

1055 A No. 

1056 e You had not known Hakim before? 

1057 A I don't know Hakim. I only talked to him once or 

1058 twice. 

1059 2 Have you met Clines before? 

1060 A I had never met Tom. 

1061 e You had known Gadd before? 

1062 A Yes. 

1063 S What was the context in which you had known him? 

1064 A He had a business relationship with him where he 

1065 was providing, I guess-- 

1066 fi tet ma say, we have had previous information that 

1067 nay have b«en--his contract may have been of a sensitive 

1068 natuza and wa don't want to go into it if it is of a 

1069 sansitlva nature. 

1070 A It is of a sensitive nature. 

1071 Q Let's leave it at that. 



UNCLASffD 



88 



NiHK> 
1072 
1073 
107U 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
108M 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
10914 
1095 
1096 



UNClASSra 



HZX03II002 llllil.l U.^.lll II U PAGX U6 
A But this is oi sansltlva natux*. too. 
HR. KXRSTEIN: It Is a dliiarant kind. 
IHE HITHESS! I know, but I just want to bring a 
llttla lavity to this. 
BY HR. TIEFERs 
Q Had your contact with Gadd only been In the context 
oi that sensitive contract that ha had? 
A Yes, and support thereof, 
fi Do you know what the cargo was that was I 



X I guess It would be speculation. I don't think I 
was ever definitely told that it was--Dick always referred to 
it as pineapples or things like that, but, you know — 

fi When he said that, did you know for a fact ox have 
a very stxong suspicion that it was not pineapples? 

A I knew it was not pineapples. 

e Old you now it was hazardous aaterial? 

A I think I did. 
Yes, I did, yes. 

S In the course of your conversations with these 
vaxious people, did you have an impression whether they had 
previously shipped such material? 
. ~ A Mo. I had no impression. 

fi Old the way they were making arrangements give you 
any impression as to whether they wexe declaxing to the 



iiNcussm 



89 



■».. " 



ONCLASSIHED 



Hinti RIt03<400a VllVkllWII ■kl' PAGX 147 

1097 goyatnBcnts Involved along th« May on this trip axaotly what 

1098 thay war* shipping? 

1099 A Tha Imptasslon I got was that It was graasad at 

1100 ^^^^^^1 and at tha and, at tha dastlnatlon, but nothing was 
110 1 dona In batwaan. Thay wata just transits. 

1102 fi And li you can tall what It was that gava you that 

1103 luprasslon. 

110<( K I just think tha way tha whola thing was handlad. 

1105 Uhan you hava a^^^^^^Bdilrplana coning Into tha largast 

1106 civil airport In tha country and you ara trans-loading 90- 

1107 odd-thousand pounds of fralght. you hava got ground handlazs 

1108 Involvad, you hava got OEFEX handling papar work and things 

1109 of that nat'ura, you hava C),lnas ovax thara and It lad na to 

1110 ballava that it was ollad. 

nil I can't spacliloally say that It was, but tha 

1112 Imprasslon certainly was thara. 

1113 fi And did you form an laprasslon at tha tlaa as to 
111<« who tha ultimata customar fox this was? 

1115 A It would ba ay Imprasslon only. 

1116 e Yas. 

1117 A Yas. 

1118 8 Hhat was your Imprasslon? 

1119 . ~ A Hall, that It was going to ba funnalad parhaps 

1120 through U.S. sourcas In Cantral Amarlca to tha contras. 

1121 e Did you hava an Imprasslon whathar It was a U.S. 



UNClASSinED 



90 



NAnE = 

1122 
1123 
1 1214 
1 125 
1 126 
1 127 
1 128 
1 129 
1 130 
1 131 
1 132 
1 133 
1 134 
1 135 
1 136 
1 137 
1 138 
1 139 
1 IMO 
1141 
1 142 
1 143 
1 144 
1 145 
1 146 



HIR034002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 48 



Government operation or not? 

A Yes, I had the feeling that it was. 

2 And what gave you these impressions? 

A Well, let me further amplify that. I didn't think 
that Dick Gadd was operating as an international arms 
merchant . 

Q Okay. 

A I just felt that it was being dona for a government 
agency. I can't be more specific than that, but I think it 
would have given us some problems, too, if we had felt that 
Gadd was operating as--this is an editorial or comment--but if 
Gadd had been operating independently, we would have had a 
real problem with that. 

2 And what would your problem have been? 

A Uell, you know, we don't fly arms around, we don't 
fly arms around for any Tom, Dick or Harry. 

2 In fact, do you know of Southern Air Transport ever 
flying arms around for anyone other than the United States 
Government? 

A I have no knowledge. 

fi Suppose I referred to hazardous material. Do you 
know of Southern Air Transport flying hazardous material 
around for anyone else, the U.S. Government? 

A Oh, sura. 

2 For who else does it fly hazardous cargo? 



iimmm 



91 



Mixoanooa 



UNClflSSIFIFD 



PAGE U9 



IlluttxmtlonS/ you don't hav* to nan* th«a. 

A I oan't oii tha top o£ my haad> you know, custonars 
probably llka--ua did ona> I can't ranambar tha custonars. 
but oil drilling axploslvas and things oi that natuta, sura. 
Nothing unusual about that. 

But thay ara not nunltions. 
fi Lat's go through tha rast of tha documants in your 
iila. Ha will saa uhathar wa maka tha» — 
\ That is dirty pool this ona . 

HR. KIRSTEIN: Tha lawyars ara to blaaa for that. 
THE HITNESS' Yas. you gat tha blaiia for that. Had 
I not saan this I navar would hava raoognizad that. 
BYHR. TIErER' 
S By tha way> on paga imS, do you raoogniza tha 
inscription or tha phona nunbar now that you hava looked at 
it? 

t Yas > that is ny writing and doodling on Dick Gadd's 
nunbar . 

e Do you raoogniza paga 11i(9? 
i Yas. 

fi Can you axplain what it is? Would you identify it? 
A Yas> and this ralatas to aithar ona of tha two 
AzxoN trips. X don't ranambar which ona, probably tha first 
ona. And it is tha nama of an individual with] 
^^^^^■and thay ara a ground handling agant. 



iifnussm 



92 



NAHZi 

1172 
1173 
117«i 
117S 
1176 
1 177 
1178 
1 179 
1180 
1181 
1182 
1183 
1 18M 
1185 
1186 
1187 
1188 
1189 
1190 
1191 
1 192 
1193 
1194 
1195 
1196 



HZR03U002 



iiNCUssm 



PiGX SO 



^- a Do you hftva any zacollaotion — doas this zaizash youz 
zaoollaotion as to what this individual might hava dona? 

k 1 think that thay. Clinas had nada azrangamants 
with than to do tha tzans-load. It is ioz tha loading of 
tha alzczait, nothing aoza, nothing lass. Not that I know 
of any way. 

fi Did you spaak to this pazson? 

A I don't zamambaz if I did oz not. 

e I show you paga 1150. 
Do you zacogniza it? 

X Yas> vagualy. 

e Can you axplain what it is? 

k I baliava that it.is~it is only a baliai — that it 
was Ton Clinas* hotal nuabaz, hotal rooB, and than just soma 
notas that Z wantad to giva hla. Tha plana was dalayad, I 
was tailing him whan it was going to azziva, I mada a nota 
how long it takas to load it and gat out o£ thaza and I 
guass my iinal nota is whan it would azziva at tha 
dastination. 

e ill zight. Paga 1151? 

A Oh> yas, this was — Azzow invoiead us in addition to 
tha basio zata thay ohazgad foz tha tzip. «30,000 damuzzaga 
ohazgas ioz tha dalay dua to tha snow stozm^^^^^^^^^Hand 
wa did not pay it. 

e What is documant 1151? I think I zaoogniza it. 



uNCUtssve 



93 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIK03*4001 llllVLnWII IkV PAGE 51 

1 It Is an Involc* iroa know to Southern ior 
damuiiag* chargaa oi two days. I ballava. 

fi Could this ba a KazoK of an anvalop with & window 
In It? 

I That Is probably a fair stataaant, yas . 

fi 1152, do you racognlza that? 

k That Is an anpllilad varslon of 1151. Hy maaory Is 
battar than I thought. 

fi Battar than you said, Z an not sura It Is a John 
Daan maaory. 

i It Is not. 

fi Paga 1153. 

I It' Is ay writing and it doasn't aaan a thing to aa 
now today. It Is obviously soaa — a flight Itinerary, but It 
doasn't aaan anything today. 

fi 1154. 

A Tha first nuabars aza Azzow Air's local phona 
nuabar, soaa notas about landing rights Including 
dastlnatlon and I told thaa that that was thalr 
rasponslblllty. 

Dapartura tlaa . Tha othar notas ara tailing thaa 
tha oustoaar would handla tha onloading and offloading. 

. " Also, instructing Arrow that thay hawa to taka cara 
of ground aqulpaant. Also asking Arrow for tha aircraft 
registration, craw naaes and tha arrival tlaa 



UNCLASSIHED 



94 



iiNJUssm 



HAKE: HIR03U002 'VbriUIIIIII || PAGE 52 



1222 
1223 
122^ 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123>t 
1235 
1236 
1237 
12 38 
1239 
12M0 
12m 
12>42 
12X3 
12>4<4 
12U5 
121(6 



. . Basically, notes to myseli of questions to ask or 
statements to make to Arrow. 

fi Mould you have kept a record oi the names of the 
crew? 

A I think I wrote it on a piece of paper and threw it 
away after I passed it. 

e Page 1155? 

A I don't remenber this. I mean, I don't have any 
good recollection of it. 

8 Based on it, let me ask you a question or two. It 
purports to be a telex to the attention of Mr. Poirson and 
nr . Mulligan. Do you recall telexes being sent back and 
forth at all on this matter? 

A No, there was telexes or hard copy messages sent 
which were flight itineraries but never was the shipment in 
any of our telexes ever listed, and something else comes out 
on this one. This Mr. Wiegensberg, I first recall that Gadd 
told me that the shipment was being handled out of Canada or 
brokered out of Canada by a company called Iransworld — 

Q Arms . 

A — arms. I think this Ulegensbarg was with 
Transworld Arms but I don't now what happened, but X think 
h* "Sell out of the loop somehow in the whole process. 

S Kow that your memory from years ago which is 
holding up, it is coming back to you. does the fact that a 



UNCUSSIFIfD 



95 



^nmssim 



Ntni> KII103*4002 ^^ VII Iff If PAGE 53 



1247 
1218 
12>49 
1250 
1251 
1252 
1253 
1254 
1255 
1256 
1257 
1258 
1259 
1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
126K 
126S 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
1271 



ooapany with th* naa* Transworld Atas took part in It, was 
that also part of why you wars under tha inprasslon that 
arms sight ba baing shipped? 

A Yas, that is right. Gaaz> it wasn't pinaapplas. 
Kow I find out. 
[ Laughtar . ] 

BY MR. TIEriR' 

fi Lat's go out oi saquenca a littla and I show you 
paga 1157, anothar doeunant. 

A Okay. Iha nassaga itsali, not tha notas. tha 
iiassaga itsali was sant out by Arrow and it is a flight 
advisory itinerary just providing basio iniornation 
concarning tha trip. 

And it lists tha consignaa oi tha freight in 
ilDF olass 3-C. 

fi Uhat does olass C explosives mean to you? 

A It can mean any number oi things but in this case 
ue knew it was ammunition. Really there is not — X suppose it 
is an itinerary message, set up sheet. 

e Old Arrow Air, as well as Southern Air Transport, 
know that this was ewplosives? 

A Z think Z told them it was olass C and I did 
not' — they knew it was explosives but I did not tell them that 
it was ammo. 

KR. KIRSTEZNi They might have— 



iintimm 



96 



UNCIASSIHED 



NXHE> RXX03U002 Ul IUI.JIUUI I IbU PAGE 5U 



1272 
1273 
127I* 
127S 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
12814 
1285 
1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
12911 
1295 
1296 



THE WITNESS! I told thaa it was class C, thay 
flguiad It out, too. 

BY MR. TIEFER: 
e Is that your handuzitlng? 
A Y»s. 

S Can you axplain what It signifies, what that does 
signify? 

MR. KIRSTEIN: Did you ever talk to Secozd? 

THE WITHESS: No. You know, the interesting thing 
is I nevez did talk to Secozd. I think I Got these nunbers, 
these weze notes I believe I made at home over the weekend 
when one of the trips was opezating . I don't know why I 
have Hiegensbezg 's nana down thaze, but I believe in ay 
convezsations with Ton Clines he was the one that gave na 
all these nunbers ioz Secozd. 

BY MR. TIEFER: 
S These phone numbers 7 

A These phone numbers. Hhen I told Gadd that I even 
have Secozd 's oar phone number, Gadd expzessed a little 
displaasuz* that I even had that. Basically, what happened 
on this trip, because of the snafus, all the coordinating 
activities, Gadd was cut out of that loop and I was dealing 
dlz'ect with Tom Clines who gave me the impression that he 
was working for Secozd. 

So I make a note here that the^^^^Hf light is 



mmms 



97 



HAHK' 
1297 
1298 

1299 
1300 
130 1 
1302 
1303 
13014 
1305 
1306 
1307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
1311 
1312 
1313 
131<4 
1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1319 
1320 
1321 



HIK03M002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PACK SS 



904ng to arciv* Uadnasday at 0130Z. tha rast of It doasn't 
■•an such to ■•• . I navaz did contact Sacozd. 

fi Has Atzow Air working with you on tha shipmant out 
arranganants or had thay lait all that to you, tha ground 
azrangenants^^^^^^^^^Hand daaling with tha dalays and 
such? 

A I was gatting fad tha Information on tha delays. 
tha first trip was dalayad bacausa of tha H^^^Kilight baing 
delayed out °^^^^^^^^K ^ was gatting that inforaation on 
arrival times from Tom Clinas who was in Lisbon. 

Than I would in turn advise Arrow whan they could 
expect tha connecting flight to ha in. 

Arrow made their own handling arrangements for 
fuel. air. and electric. Somebody over there made 
arrangements for the loading of the freight. I can't 
remember who. 

S What about at tha other end. the^^^^^^^^^end, is 

that the destination? 

Yes. tha trip to^^^^^^^and tha 
arrangements. I was told by Gadd. ware handled, don't worry 
about it. when it gets down there--! am talking about the 
offload of the freight. 

e Yes. 

A The offload of tha freight was taken care of. it 
was handled by Gadd. I don't know who was going to do it. 



UNCUSSIHED 



98 



NAHK> 
1322 
1323 

132M 
1325 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
133U 
1335 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13*40 
13<41 
131421 
13^3 
13*414 
13*45 
13*46 



KZ&03(4002 



UNClASSinED 



PAGE 56 



but It Has dona. 



And tha giound powax, at oataza> was Azrou's 
zasponslblllty to maka azrangemants ioz that. 

fi Looking again at 1157, do any oi tha othaz nanas on 
heza maan anything to you] 



A I was provldad that nana as tha conslgnaa by Dick 
Gadd. 

e Did ha glva you any Indication whathaz that was a 
zaal parson who was going to zacalva tha arms oe was a 
usaiul nana Ilka tha usaiulnass of tha wozd ' 'plnaapplas ' ' ? 

A Ha lad — I led--I ballava It was a bonailda pazson. 

fi You thought tha — - 

A Laglt. 

e You thought tha azits waza going tol 

A Yes, yas. Yes. Thara was no doubt in ay alnd . I 
didn't know how you could gzaasa it through 
without sanding it thzoughj 

3 On tha lower part oi tha page, af tar^l^HBthara 
is a naaa. Kr . — perhaps I an wrong to say ''Hr.*'] 
is that a nana that means anything to you? 

A I aa sorry. Where are we? 
. ~ a Let aa show you. It could be that that is not a 
naaa at all, but — 

A It is a naaa. I think it is tha naaa oi a — yas, I 




UNCLASSIFIEO 



99 



KANK 

1347 
13148 
13M9 
1350 
1351 
1352 
1353 
135M 
1355 
1356 
1357 
1358 
1359 
1360 
1361 
1362 
1363 
1364 
1365 
1366 
1367 
1368 
1369 
1370 
1371 



HIK03I4002 
think it Is th« ii»na9«t 



UNCIASHD 



PAGE 57 
who was th« handling agant 



fi Two linas balow that thara is a Hr. Btown, doas 
that hava any signiiicanca ? 

A Spaoulation. As you S&»> it says MKPA, which I 
baliava is Antigua, and you sea LIAT, that stands for 
Laeward Islands Air Transport, and it is a local airlina in 
tha Wast Indies or tha Windwa,r<;l Islands thara, and ona would 
assuna that Mr. Brown is probi^bly tha station manager there 
and they are asking for providing ground and air. 

This is a st^ndouLd set-up message you do in any 



transit , 



airline. 



HR. KIRSTEIK> LIAT stands for "lata, if at all" 



BY HR. TIEFER> 

e And "regards. Jack Creed" at the bottom? 

A Jack Creed worked or does work, I am not sure, in 
Arrow's cargo sales department and he sat out — he was the one 
that sent out this set-up messaga. 

fi Here you dealing with him mostly over there or 
somebody else? 

A I dealt with--very briefly with him. I was dealing 
primarily with a gentleman by the name of Son Ewing, who was 
their director of flight control. 

2 Do you know whether Ewlng and Creed are still at 



UNCUSSIHFD 



100 



KAHE: 
1372 
1373 
137U 
1375 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
13814 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
1391 
1395 
1396 



HIR03>4002 



ArzoH? 



mmm 



PAGE 58 



A I beliave they both are. 

e Okay. 

A They Here really in the dark on this thing. 

2 How did you know that? 

A They didn't ask any questions and I didn't 
volunteer any iniozmation. It was as i£ they didn't want to 
know. It was just a trip to then. 

2 I show you page 1158. 

A This is a message that was sent out by. if you look 
at the botton. ''Perry/JH Flight Control''. J.H. Is Arrow 
Air's two letter identifier. This message was just advising 
us of a re\/ised itinerary for that trip. I think what I 
have done is crossed it off because I didn't believe it. 
then I verified it, and I wrote good tises, and the other 
notes don't mean anything to me. 

e The fact it was a crew of five U.S. nationals, does 
that mean anything to you? 

A Yes. But I don't know why there would be a crew of 
five. Other than it doesn't mean anything to me. 

fi I show you 1 156 . 

A Okay. This was on one of the trips, a contact for 
Albvrt Hakim, and I am not sure if cross references may not 
show that that is the same number as DEFEX offices. 

e You mean phone number or telex number? 



mmm 



101 



1397 
1398 

1399 

moo 

1(40 1 
1U02 

mo3 

1<40I4 

itos 

1t406 

mo? 
mo8 
mo9 

1*410 

mi 1 

1*412 
11413 

imi4 
mis 
mu 
mi? 

1<418 

im9 

1(420 
1421 



UNCLASSIRED 



HIX03<4002 IllVltl M.l.lll ir II PtaX 59 

A Y*s . Th« phon* nunbar. Tha hotal nunbar, too« 823 
undatnaath that, that was I ballava for Cllnas and--oh. Z 
knoM what this was about. I told Azxow that I would gat tha 
traiilo rights ^^^^^^^H for than and that is, that is 
anothar raason why I baliava it was gzaasad ovar. Thay got 
traffic rights and it was slow ooaing and I baliava wa avan 
sant tha airplana without landing rights ovar thara. 

I an a littla sKatchy on that. Trying to gat 
through tha Clinas, Clinas was trying to arranga it or 
sonabody in DETEX of flea, thara is anothar nana which I an 
sura you will gat to. 

fi Doas th^ nana Josa Carnal maan anything? 

I Dr*. Carnal. Z only talkad to hia onca. Z don't 
racall. Zt was ovar thasa traffic rights, and thara was 
anothar guy. Lunas or sonathlng Ilka that. Rakla was tha 
guy that finally notifiad na whan Z got in touch with him 
that ha ox sonabody had sacurad tha landing rights. 

fi Has that an unorthodox procadura to sand a plana 
ovar without landing rights? 

& No. Hall, wa — wall, yas . I was lad to baliava that 
thay wara forthooaing, though, so it was kind of a rola of 
tha dlca. Z had avary raason to baliava thay wara going to 
pun through. 

Zf it was lass than a 90 parcant shot, Z couldn't 
hava dona it. 



UNCLASSIFEI 



102 



NAME: 

1(t22 
1>(23 

m25 
1426 
1427 
1428 
1429 
1430 
1431 
1432 
1433 
1434 
1435 
1436 
1437 
1438 
1439 
1440 
1441 
1442 
1443 
11144 
1445 
1446 



UNCLASSra 



HIR034002 UllllL^llljII 11 II fJ^GH 60 

S You nay have said this, vtas Hakin in the United 
States during this time? 

A I think he was over there. 

e So let ne have your impressions as to where the 
players were. Clines was over there? In Portugal? 

A Clines was over in Portugal. 

Q Do you believe Hakim was in Portugal? 

A He was either th^re or San Francisco. I don't know 
why I think he might have been in San Francisco. But my 
memory does not serve me well. 

2 Hhere did you believe Secord was? 

A Didn't have a clue. 

Q Aiid Gadd? 

A Gadd was in Washington. 

Q You were talking to him only by telephone? 

A I wasn't talking to him on this because he couldn't 
do anything. 

e 1159. 

A I recognize the names. I don't remember anything 
about it. 

S And might the phone numbers that are shown be for 
Josa Garnel? 
. ~ A Oh, yes. I am sura they are. I aa sura. 

2 Here you trying to reach him? Or was someone just 
letting you know how to reach him? 



UNCLASSinED 



103 



NAHE 

1UM7 
IMMS 
114 49 

mso 

IKS 1 
11452 
11453 
lUSU 

mss 

1M56 
1MS7 

loss 

1U59 
1<460 
1X61 
1X62 
1X63 
1X6X 
1X65 
1X66 
1X67 
1X68 
1X69 
1X70 
1X71 



HZX03X002 



UNcussro 



PAGZ 61 



SoB«body l«t B* know how to taaoh him. I probably 



did laach him. I had rnoi* pzoblams going on with that. I 
can't zamanbar uho I contactad foi what with all tha 
problams associated with this. 

Q Ooas tha word ''parking azrangad'*? 

A Ha may hava--I can't laaglna asking hin for parking 
arrangements because that is something I would have asked 
^^^^^1 about, so I don't know. 

I don't know what that number at tha bottom where 
it says ''HONT'" after it? 

S Yes. 

A That doesn't ring a bell. 

fi Is' tha name Mr. >-t-u-n-e-s, could that ba tha Mr. 
Lunes you refarzad to you ware trying to placa? 

A yes. And Brito might be his first name. 
The ^^^^^^Bneansl 

A Yes. I don't know. I don't know who ha is with 
anymore . 

2 Do you have any idea why this is on a place of 
paper that says ''Amfac Hotel' '? 

A Yes, I think several months before I took a trip to 
Dallas and I stayed at Amfac and it was just a piece of 
papvr I had lying on ay desk. 

fi Okay. 

MR. KIRSTEIK: How about a rastroom break here? 



"fimsim 



104 



m72 

1U73 
1474 
147S 
1476 
1477 
1478 



UNCDUSIFIED 



KAHE: HIK034002 lllll.l ll.\\lff>li>ll PAGE 62 



HR. TIErER: Sure. 

Let's mazk this as Exhibit 1, the entire set of 
records, 1143 through 1159. 

[The following document was marked as Exhibit DPH-7 
for identification: ] 

x********* IMSERT 2-2 *********/ 



(INCUSSIflED 



105 



HIR03'4002 



DCI1N CUINTERO 



VNCussm 



PAGE 63 



BY HR. TIEFER: 

2 Back on the tecord . 
I show you documents 17i*8 through 1752. 

A Yes . 

2 Do you recognize these pages? 

A Yes . 

2 Can you identify them? 

A This is a--1748 is a check request. It is a 
Southeastern Air form. And it was a check request to pay 
Arrow Air in advance ior a charter flight, one of which we 
have already discussed. 

2 Before we go away, did you fill that form out? 

A I didn't fill this out, but I think probably what 
happened is I, probably on the phone, told somebody in 
finance, more specifically, our vice president of finance, 
that I needed «107,000. 

2 Who was that at the time? 

A Probably at that time it was Tom-- 

S Does the name Crummey mean anything? 

A Tom Crummey; yes. He probably had somebody fill it 
out and issue the check, and I passed the check on to Arrow. 

e You did the check in your hand? 

A Yes, I believe X did. 

2 Is that usual? I guess you didn't normally handle 



UNCLASSIFIED 



106 



UNCussra 



NiHK> HZR03i(003 IIIVI.I ll\\ll*l^ll PACK 6M 

1S0H o&«rt«zx7 

1505 A Ko, I don't normally handl* chartazs. But as Z 

1506 statad aazli«r> Z was tha only point of contact Mlthln 

1507 Southazn Aiz on this, thasa chaztaz tzips. 

1508 S Paga 17h9? 

1509 A Zt is just a standard aircraft chaztaz contzact foz 

1510 Azzow, with Azzou, foz tha tzip ua talked about. 

1511 e Did you hava any dealings with David Sowezs? 

1512 A Sowers? He was there vice president of sales. 

1513 He really didn't get involved in any of the selling of 
151*1 this trip at all, but it becana a sales function when you 

1515 got down to picking up the money and signing the contract. 

1516 so he handled it. The resi of it is just addenda to tha 

1517 contract. 

1518 e 1752? 

1519 A This is a check zequest for the first trip, and you 

1520 Bight know that the second trip was more extensive than the 

1521 first. That is because they were unhappy with the way the 

1522 fizst one want so with tha delays with theflHHflight. 

1523 They didn't even want to do it and Z talked them into it. 

1524 and they raised the price. As it turns out they completely 

1525 botohed the second one. 

1526 ~ They actually — that zeminded me they owe ma «3,000 bucks; 

1527 so we aze pzobably even. 

1528 nR. TZEFER: Let's mazk this as the next exhibit. 



immsm 



107 



HAHE: HIR034002 
1S29 
1530 



UNCLASSIHED 



1531 
1532 



PAGE 65 
iTha following document was marked as Exhibit DMP-8 for 
identification: 1 



«******«*« INSERT 3 - 1 ***xx*x*x/ 



iimiFiEii 



108 



NAHE: 
1533 
153U 
1S3S 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
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1541 
15142 
1543 
1544 
1545 
1546 
1547 
1548 
1549 
1550 
1551 
1552 
1553 
1554 
1555 
1556 
1557 



HIR034002 



ONGlASSinED 



PAGE 66 



BY HR. TIEFER: 
fi Do you know this document? 
A Ho real memory. 

2 Do you recognize the handwriting? 
A Yes: Poirson. 

e You said you were the only real contact point, but a 
number oi times you have mentioned Poirson' s name. Did he 
have a iair knowledge of what was going on? 

A He knew that X was dealing with Arrow for a trip; he 
knew some oi the routings; he didn't have any idea what the 
cargo was. or any of the other details. 

HR. KIRSTEIN: This, from the date, doesn't have 
anything to' do with Arrow; does it? 

THE WITNESS: No: I think what this piece of paper 
is, it — the Arrow flight was when? 

MR. KIRSTEIK: January and March of 1985. 
This was your first — 

THE HITNESS: This was much later. 
BY HR. TIEFER: 
fi Let's put this aside before we go to this. Now, we 
have gone over a lot of documents. I just want to see if 
anything more comes back to you about the January and March 
198S flights. 

Did anything happen between the first and the second--did 
you discuss with anybody this seemingly strange event that 



UNCUSSm 



109 



HIR03<4002 



UNCUSMD 



PAGE 67 



had taken place, or the new people you had talked to? 

A I am not sure I understand what you mean by 
''strange events.'' "" 

S If you don't accept my characterization, the events 
that had taken place on the January trip, the difficulty of 
arranging for delivery. 

A No, nothing happened. 
You know> when you fly airplanes on a charter basis all 
over the world, regardless of what the nature of the freight 
may be, whether it is hazardous material or not, you have 
difficulties on an ad hoc basis. It Is not like flying 
scheduled service. 

There 'was nothing unusual about any of these trips, as far 
as Z was concerned, given ay expaxiencA. 

These types of operations are fraught with difficulties. 

8 Kow, this was a different type of plane than the 
planes that Southern Aix Transport had? 

A Yes. 

2 Large planes — did that provide any thought on your 
part about the usefulness of Southern Air Transport having 
such planes? Here there any discussions that cane out of 
that? 

~ A I think we had made a corporate decision, long 
before any of these trips, to get into another aircraft 
type. Clearly, we didn't get into the 707 to form these 



UNCIASSIHED 



no 



NAHE: 

1583 
1584 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 
1591 
1592 
1593 
159>4 
1595 
1596 
1597 
1598 
1599 
1600 
1601 
1602 
1603 
160(« 
1605 
1606 
1607 



UNGIASSIFIED 



HIR03i«00flll«l|l U^^ll II 11 PAGE 68 

typ.es of trips because you can go broke in a hurry if that 
is your only line of business. 

2 When had the decision been made to get 707s? 

A Oh/ probably in October of 1984 . He had a senior 
marketing meeting and the decision uas made at that time 
that we had to expand the product line. He can't just offer 
the Hercules, we had to offer an airplane as large as the 13 
pallet position jet freighter. That is when that discussion 
was made . 

2 By senior management, who would have participated in 
that? 

A The chairman, the president, and senior vice 
presidents,' and-- 

S Hho were yourself and Mr. Crummey — 

A Charlie Carson, Bill Langton, Jim Bastian; also at 
that meeting was Asa Hemperly, vice president of sales; and 
Carl Holivei, who is no longer with us, director of 
personnel; and Ray Taranto. But there was a decision made 
by the senior management group to expand into another 
airplane. 

fi Has anyone tasked to go start the acquisition 
process? 

' k I eventually was assigned the project and traveled 
to Kuwait, and completed the purchase of three airplanes 
from the ■ 4tu w aile3e , Kuwait Airlines. 



UNCussra 



Ill 



NAnE : 
1608 
1609 
16 10 
16 11 
16 12 
16 13 
16 m 
1615 
16 16 
16 17 
1618 
1619 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
1624 
1625 
1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 



HIR03U002 



ilNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 69 



- C When did you go to Kuwait? 

A Oh, March of 1985, after I finished fooling around 
with Arrow. 

2 Did you know how many of them you would buy? 

A Mall, before I went over there obviously identified 
TeleK Comnunications with them, knew they had three 
available, three were for sale. And so I went over there 
and spent a month negotiating the purchase oi the three 
airplanes and their entire spares package. 

2 By yourself? 

A I had a technical representative with me who did the 
final inspection of the airplanes and then I had a 
couple--two of those guys.. to do records research and then I 
had another guy who was an aircraft broker and he eventually 
ended up leaving and I finished the deal myself. 

Q Did Bill Langton or Jim Bastian participate at all? 

A Ho; only by giving me a lot of advice over the 
phone . 

S What was their advice? 

HR. KIRSTEIK: Lower the price? 

THE WITNESS: Lower the price, right. 

BY MR. TIEFER: 

S Did you succeed in louezing the amount in youz month 
in Kuwait? 

A Yes. 



UNcussra 



112 



NAME: 

1633 
16311 
1635 
1636 
1637 
1638 
1639 
16(40 
16(41 
16((2 
16U3 
16(4U 
16U5 
16M6 
16(47 
16(48 
16(49 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165(4 
1655 
1656 
1657 



HIR03(4002 



UNCLASSra 



PAGE 70 



- fi By hoH much, roughly? 

A (» million; (4.5 million. 

2 What was it when you iirst started? 

A *10.5 million. 

2 And it came down to? 

A $6.5 million. 

2 Did that cover your expenses? 

A Barely. 

2 When did you complete the discussions? 

A Sometime aiter Easter of that year. I know I was 
over there a long time. 

2 And did the sale take place shortly thereafter/ or 
not for a while? 

A Hell, we executed a sales document prior to my 
departure. And we took delivery probably two months later 
on the first airplane, I think it was June, Hay or June. 

2 Did you know whether other airlines were attempting 
to buy these planes at the same time? 

A There were other interested parties in the 
airplanes . 

2 Did you have the sense you were competing with them, 
oz the Kuwaita** were trying to get you to compete with 
them? 

A I think they would have like to, but you would have 
to have perseverance in dealing with them. First of all. 



UNCLASSIHED 



113 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIROSMOOZ IIIVIll Malalll II II PAGE 71 

1658 thay hava to establish your credibility. 

1659 They are very leery, and they had to qualify ma as a 

1660 legitinate buyer. That took sone time before they would 
166 1 enter into serious negotiations. 

1662 2 During that time did you have a sense of what the 

1663 other potential buyers were willing to pay for these planes? 
166>4 A Ho. 

1665 2 Did the Kuwait*** — thay navar — 

1666 A No. One of the advantages that wa represented to 

1667 Kuwait was that we were willing to take all three airplanes, 

1668 which was their last 707s and their entire inventory, that 

1669 was unique to the 707s, and took it all off their books. 

1670 Most of the people going in were brokers, they wanted to 

1671 do onesies or twosies, were not intarastad in the inventory, 

1672 or only portions of it, so we were in a position to take 

1673 everything off their books. So as a package it was 

1674 attractive to them. 

1675 If they had been patient and given a batter geographical 

1676 location, they could have piecemaaled it out and realized a 

1677 greater incoma. But they uexa smart in gattlng rid of it as 

1678 thay did. 

1679 2 You said you got advice over the telephone. Here 

X 

1680 any Teles sent back and forth to you while you were there, 

1681 letters or other written communications? 

1682 A No. 



UNCUSSinED 



114 



NAHE: 

1683 
168(4 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
16914 
1695 
1696 
1697 
1698 
1699 
1700 
1701 
1702 
1703 
1704 
1705 
1706 
1707 



UNCIASSIHED 



HIR03>4002 llllll.l flXXIHI^II PAGE 72 

-2 Did you corae baclT with "any documentation? 

A Yes> a sales contract. 

2 But other than that, no menos or reports, or 
anything like that? 

A Ko. Uell, I got a file this thick, other than the 
sales contract, that shous you all the parts that went with 
it and things like that. 

2 But Bill langton would have to take your word ior it 
as to everything you said took place in the negotiations? 

A He would have to take ay word for it. 

2 Okay. 

A Yes, and the proof was in the pudding as it was 
delivered. I am still here,. 

2 I show you--let*s go back to 773, which has the date 
December 1985 on it. Do you have--you have said you don't 
have a recollection of that? 

A No recollection. 

2 Except you think it is Bob Poirson's handwriting? 

A It is Bob Poirson's handwriting; yes. 

2 Do you recall a flight in December 1985 
corresponding to this? 

A No. 

2 Okay. 

A Specifically on a date. no. We may have; we may not 
have. I don't think we ever did go to Bermuda on any of 



UNCIASSIHED 



115 



NAHK> MXXOSUOOa 



Mmm ■-' 



73 



1708 
1709 
1710 
1711 
1712 
1713 
1714 
171S 
1716 




thos« routings to C«ntral Aaarloa. 
fi Or from 
A FromI 
fi You racognlz* th* handwriting? 

HR. TZErCRi Lttt's nark this as tha naxt axhlblt. 
( Tha following docxmant was narkad as Exhibit EPH-9 for 
ldantlilcatlon< ] 

xxxxxxxxxx XKSERT 3-2 xxxxxxxxx/ 



UNcussra 



116 



KAnE = 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 
172«4 
172S 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
17314 
1735 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 
17140 
17m 



HIR0314002 



mmrnn 



PAGE 74 



BY HR. TIEFER: 

2. Previously you described certain forms that 
reflected cargo. Let me show you number 687 and ask you if 
you are familiar with that form? 

A Yes. 

Q And the — 

A The form. I am — I have never seen this sheet before. 

Q Okay. 
Can you describe the significance of the form? 

A It is a general declaration. You have got to stamp 
it out and stamp it in by customs, list the aircraft number, 
company that operates the aircraft, flight number, the date; 
point of origin: destination, the crew members, cargo, and 
the rest is self-explanatory. 

Q This has nothing--this particular form has nothing 
filled in in the cargo box or am I wrong? 

A It doesn't because, probably, it was — the cargo 
manifests were attached so that probably took care of it. 

e And who fills this out? 

A The company. 

fi Heaning Southern Air? 

A Yes. 
~ e Hho in Southern Air would fill this out? 

A Most of the time if it is out of Hlami, somebody in 
the sales and service department would handle it, or if it 



mmm 



117 



UNCLASSIHED 



NAME: HIR03M002 Ull tJL.nLltJII ILU PAGE 75 



17142 
1743 
17U14 
1745 
1746 
1747 
1748 



is-not out of Miami tha ctaw can handurita it in. 
fi All right. 

MR. IIEFER: nark this as tha naKt axhibit. 
[The following document was marked as Exhibit DPH-IO for 
identification: ] 

INSERT 3-3 x*««*xxxx/ 



UNCLASSIHES 



118 



NAME: 

17U9 
1750 
1751 
1752 
1753 
17514 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 
1762 
1763 
1764 
1765 
1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 



HIR03i<002 



UNGUSSIFIED 



PAGE 76 



BY MR. TIEFER: 



2 Looking at document 688> do you recognize this type 
of form? 

A It is a cargo manifest. 

2 And can you explain the significance of this type of 
form? 

A It is a standard document that has to accompany the 
freight, and it lists who the operator is, the flight 
number, the date, departure and arrival points and number of 
pieces, description of the goods, and who the--or or what the 
wait is . 

Then in this case it shows, I guess, who the consignee is 
and there, says there is, t-his must mean there is a shippers 
export document accompanying this. 

2 You mean the SED in the right column? 

A Yes . 

2 Mho fills this out? 

A The service department. 

HR. TIEFER: Hark that Exhibit 11. 
I The following document was marked as Exhibit DPH-II for 
identification: I 

xxncxxxxxxx IKSERT 3 - M *********/ 



UNCussm 



119 



HAHE : 
1772 
1773 
1774 
1775 
1776 
Mil 
\118 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
178U 
1785 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
1791 
1792 
1793 
1794 
1795 
1796 



HIR03U002 



UNClASSra 



PAGE 77 



BY HR. TIEFER: 



a ThiS-- 

A I think this is the complete SED, right? 

Q Perhaps I have other pages. Let me see that back. 

A I think you chopped off the top. 

2 This is 689? 

When you say incomplete-- 
A I think the Xerox top is missing. 
2 That is 689? 
A Yes . 

2 Can you understand it even with the missing top? 
A Yes. But X don't deal with this from very often so 
I an in unchartered territory here. 

S Do you know who fills this out. if it is done by SATl 
A ^his would be done by the shipper. 
8 Let's not make that an exhibit yet. 

I show you 691. 692, and 690. 
A What is the difference between 690 and 691--689? 
2 I an tempted to say 1 . 
A What? 

HR. KIRSTEIH: It is the same document, it got 
coplad twica for soma reason. 

HR. TIEriR: Yes, thay look lika the sana document. 

HR. KIRSTEIN^ Thay are apparently the same. 

THE WITNESS: Thay are the sana. 



UNClASSinEI 



120 



HAHE: HIR0314002 



UNCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 78 



1797 
1798 
1799 
1800 
1801 
1802 
1803 
180>4 
1805 
1806 
1807 
1808 
1809 
1810 
181 1 
1812 
1813 
1814 
1815 
1816 
1817 



. - HR. TIEFER: All right. 
BY MR. TIEFER: 

Q Are you familiar with the type of from that 69 1 is? 

A This is the shipper's export declaration and I don't 
deal with this very often, so I am n^tbjvery familiar with 
it. 

2 Hho in Southern Air Transport fills this out, if 
anybody? 

A I believe this is filled out by the shipper. 

2 And 692? It is similar to 689 but you will see at 
the bottom that the date is five days off, one is 9-13, the 
other says, 9-18. There are other differences. It is the 
same type perhaps. I don't wish to put words in your mouth. 

A I don't know anything about this form. I have very 
little comment on it. I don't deal with them. 

HR. TIEFER: Let's make this the next exhibit 
number, they are 689 through 692. 

I The following document was marked as Exhibit DPM-12 for 
identification: ] 

xxxxxxxxxx INSERT 3-5 xxxxxx***/ 



DNJUJSm 



121 



HIR03U002 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 79 



BY MR. TIEFER: 

2 Is Ton Hazlett in your departmant? 

A No. 

2 Ware you aware in tha end of 1985 when Southern Air 
Transport people were looking ior a C-123 to purchase? 

A I didn't know we were looking to purchase an 
airplane . 

2 Okay. 
What I an referring to is not a purchase for Southern Air 
Transport but a purchase by Southern Air Transport for the 
use of somebody else? 

A Oh, X was vaguely fanlliar but not intimately. I 
was aware o'f tha activity. 

2 I will show you 1799 and I will have to share it 
with you, copies have run out at this point. 

A Yes. 

2 Can you identify it? 

A It is an out of date Southern Air Transport 
operations department organizational chart. 

S Can you describe briefly what various people on the 
chart do and if you wish to make corrections as you go along 
to bring it up to day, by all means do so. 
~ A Oo you want to start with myself? 

2 Yes. 

A I am senior vice president, operations, and 



uNcussm 



122 



NAME: 
18143 
1814 14 
18MS 
18146 
1847 
18148 
18U9 
1850 
1851 
1852 
1853 
18514 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 
1862 
1863 
186U 
1865 
1866 
1867 



HIR034002 



UNCIASSIFIED 



PAGE 80 



basically I an responsible iot technical services which is 
maintenance, flight operations, systems operations, for the 
airline, most of the production. 

There is a secretary under me. that is fairly obvious. 

2 What is her name. 

A Janet Shadow. 

8 She is your secretary? 

A Yes . 

2 Paul Gillcrist — let's back up. 
How long has she been with the company? 

A Since July of 1985. 

2 Who was your secretary before then? 

A X didn't have one.. I shared, we pooled. 

2 Mere there several secretaries who worked for many 
people ? 

A There were a few but there was one assigned to the 
operations department but I just didn't consider her to be 
my secretary. 

2 Was there one secretary who was familiar with what 
your secretary would not be familiax with? That is sort of 
what I am asking? 

A Ko. I handled most of it myself. I didn't get her 
involved other than just to type a letter here or there. 
And I don't generate a lot of paper. 

2 Okay. 



IH^mHEB 



123 



HIR034002 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 81 



Next person on the chart. 

A Paul Gillcrist, vice president, flight operations. 
He is the chie-f, the chiei pilots report, for the 707 and 
the Hercules, report to him. 

He is in charge of crew scheduling, the crew scheduling 
department reports to him. Basically anything to do with 
flight crew members in Southern Air are Paul Gillcrist's 
responsibility. Any of those matters. 

Q How long has he been with the company? 

A He has been with us since, I think Hay of 1985. 
The next person is, this is incorrect, lists Fred Johnson, 
vice president of technical services. He left the company 
in November or December, I ^uess, it was early December, and 
the current vice president of technical services is Kenneth 
Wilson. And in a nut shell he is basically responsible for 
maintenance of the aircraft, purchasing, stores, quality 
control, engineering, and other maintenance related 
activities . 

8 Do you know where Fred Johnson went? 

A No. 

2 Do you know why he left? 

A It was a mutual parting of ways. 

2 Can you explain that further? 

A I was unhappy with his performance. 

2 You say it was mutual? 



mmm 



124 



NAME: 
1893 
1894 
1895 
1896 
1897 
1898 
1899 
1900 
1901 
1902 
1903 
190M 
1905 
1906 
1907 
1908 
1909 
1910 
1911 
1912 
1913 
191U 
1915 
1916 
1917 



HIR03(4002 



UNCLASSinED 



PAGE 82 



A He agxeed that I was unhappy. 

2 There ate tuo other boxes on the chart. 

A We have C. Poirson, known as ''Bob'' Poirson> 
director of systems operations. 

Basically, the scheduling o£ the aircraft is Bob's 
responsibility > the dispatchers uho release the flights 
report to Bob; all daily flight activity that does not have 
to do with maintenance or flight craws is Bob Poirson's 
responsibility. Set up ground-handling arrangements in 
various cities, fuel, landing rights, traffic rights, things 
of that nature fall under Bob Poirson. 

The last one is Frank Zerbe, director of maintenance 
administration. He is ombudsman in the maintenance 
department. He handles manpower requirements, budgets, 
reviews purchasing, customer bill-backs, invoices for 
contract services, and things of that nature, and acts to a 
degree as a divisional controller. 

Q How long has Bob Poirson been with the company? 

A Since August of 198>(. 

Q And how long has Frank Zerbe been with the company? 

A Fall of 1985. 

fi Do you have knowledge of a trip that Frank Zerbe 
mad» to purchase Caribou aircraft in Canada? 

A Vague knowledge. When he made that trip he was not 
in that box. He was manager of or director of — I don't know 



UNCUSSIFe 



125 



UNCUSSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR03M002 ^--w^l^^^gj Ikl/ PAGE 83 

his exact titla> but it was a Buclington contract based in 
Fort Wayna> and Langton dealt with hin directly on these 
trips. I had no involvement. 

MR. TIEFER: Let's mark this as the next exhibit. 
[The following docunent was marked as Exhibit EPn-13 for 
identification : ] 

jKxncxxiicxxxx COHHITTEE INSERT 3-6 «*«*x***x/ 



UNCussra 



126 



MAKE: 

1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
1934 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
1940 
19U1 
19H2 
1943 
19i4t4 
1945 
1946 
1947 
1948 
1949 
1950 



HIR034002 



UNCUssm 



PAGE 84 



HR. TIEFER: I think that will be a convenient 
stopping point iot me. 

The way in which the questioning tends to proceed is, I 
stop and George Van Cleve> who is our Republican colleague, 
will take over. 

THE WITNESS: Oh, good, we got a Republican in the 
room. 

flR. TIEFER: Do you want to go off the record or 
pick right up? 

HR. VAM CLEVE: I think I can pick right up. 

BY HR. VAM CLEVE: 
2 As Hr . Tiefer indicates, I am George Van Cleve, 
Deputy Republican Counrel ior the House Committee. I have 
only a couple of brief questioi... ''nd I have appreciated your 
willingness to answer questions. 

I have never been involved in the airline business and so 
some of the questions that I am about to ask you may seem as 
though they are not vary well informed, and that is fine, 
because I don't know anything about this. 

You have testified and we have, of course, have previous 
testimony from other officials of your company, that you all 
perform trips carrying cargo from the United States to 
various points in the Hlddle East and, similarly, that your 
company assisted in transportation for material to Central 
America. 



UNCIASSIRED 



127 



NAME: 
1951 
1952 
1953 
19514 
1955 
1956 
1957 
1958 
1959 
1960 
1961 
1962 
1963 
19614 
1965 
1966 
1967 
1968 
1969 
1970 
1971 
1972 
1973 
19714 
1975 



MUSSM 



HIR0314002WI llfLflllallfl lff~ll PAGE 85 

Is thete any particular reason why if I had that kind of 
cargo to carry. I would come to your company, do you offer a 
specialized service that is not generally available? 

A The only service that we offer that--let me answer it 
this way. The 707 trips there are a number of people that 
offer comparable aircraft, either 707s or DC-8s, so what a 
prudent person would do would be to shop the market although 
we have to give consideration to the reputation of the 
operator, through reliability and integrity and things of 
that nature . 

So price can't always be the driving factor. I think we 
enjoy a good reputation. We used to. The Hercules aircraft 
is a different story. That airplane — 

2 If I could stop you on the 707 trips — if if I 
understand your testimony correctly, there are a number of 
generally reputable companies that fly similar equipment 
that could have performed those trips? 

A Yes. 

8 And probably were generally competitive on price 
since they are in the same business? 

A I would have to assume they would be. 

fi So. in short, it will be your view that the decision 
to 'come to Southern Air as opposed to some other carrier was 
not simply a business decision? 

A Oh, that was a decision made by some one else. I 



UNCLASSIFIED 



128 



NAME: 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
1984 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 
1993 
199M 
1995 
1996 
1997 
1998 
1999 
2000 



HIR03U002 



UNCLASSIRED 



PAGE 86 



can't speculate on that. 

2 I understand; but it is your testimony that there 
are people in the business who could just as uell have done 
the job? 

A Yes. 

MR. KIRSTEIH: But that is a long way iron him 
saying what their reason for hiring SAT is. That is your-- 
MR. VAN CLEVE: I understand. 
BY HR. VAH CLEVE: 

Q I don't uant to characterize your testimony, but I 
want the record to be clear that clearly from the business 
point of view, i£ I were looking for a carrier, I uould not 
have any difficulty finding a carrier who could do that 
work? 

A That is correct. 

e Okay. 
And you were saying on the 100-- 

A The 100 is a different category altogether. It is a 
unique airplane capable of carrying outside cargo, loads 
through the rearend so you can get large pieces in there 
that you can't get through the door of a 707, it is a side- 
loading door. 

And there are very feu commercial operators of the 
aircraft in the United States. In fact, now that we have 
took over Transamerican' s 100 fleet the only U.S. operator 



UNCUSSIFIED 



129 



NAKI> 

2001 
2002 
2003 
200M 
2005 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 
201 1 
2012 
2013 
20114 
2015 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
20214 
2025 



HIR03U002 



UNCIASSIFIED 



PA6K 87 



oi. Hatculas airciait is Mark All In Alaska and thay hava 
thzaa. 

Thaia is an opatator in Canada that has ona and thosa ara 
tha only--and thay ara vaty snail. So, thosa ara tha only 
operators in North Anarica. So, thara is no conpatition to 
spaak of. 

fi And tha prina consldazation in tha usa oi that 
aquipmant again just so I hava it claar? 

A Outslda iraight. Tha ability to carry outsida 
freight. 

As a sanpla, this weekend we ilew a trip for Pratt Whitney 
iron Hartford to Seattle and ue took two jet engines. Ko 
other airplane in the U.S., is capable of carrying them other 
than a Hero, or a TU?, but aconoaics precluded chartering a 
7<47 for two engines. 

fi So that in that area of your business a lot of tha 
business is dedicated by the fact that you receive a 
specialized segment of the market? 

A Yes. with limited competition. 

2 Earlier youz counsel produced for us a summary of 
flights, these are document numbers 182 1 and 1822, and I 
will show it to you. 

I believe it is an exhibit from another deposition. AS 
you can see it lists five flights between ^^^^^Kand points, 
I guess, in Central America, between January 1985 and April 



iiNowssm 



130 



KANE: 

2026 
2027 
2028 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
203U 
2035 
2036 
2037 
2038 
2039 
201(0 
20141 
20M2 
20(43 
20UU 
20145 
20146 
2047 
20148 
20149 
2050 



HIR0314002 



UNCussm 



PAGE 88 



19a6. You testified in considerable detail about the first 
two of these flights? 

A Yes. 

2 And what I wanted to ask uas simply if you knew 
whether the arrangements for the three other flights 
involved similar cargos and were made by the same person or 
persons? 

A I didn't get involved in as great a detail from a 
nuts and bolts standpoint. 

2 Let me give you a minute, if you want to break it 
up, or look at it? 

A No, I don't need to. From a nuts and bolts 

standpoint,' I did not get as involved in the flights that 

were subsequent to the Arrow Air. The reason is, as X 

stated earlier, that we had limited, we had a limited number 

of people within the company that were aware of those two 

operations. 

It. 
Obviously, because we were performing the serve ourselves, 

more people within oux organization would have to Know not 

only crew members but dispatchers and everybody else. They 

saw the airplane routed on the board, they knew where it was 

going . 

So when it got down to the nuts and bolts on these I 

didn't have as much detail. X did get involved in some of 

the planning earlier on not on pricing but on aircraft 



mm\m 



131 



NAME: 
2051 
2052 
2053 
20514 
2055 
2056 
20S7 
2058 
2059 
2060 
2061 
2062 
2063 
206M 
2065 
2066 
2067 



UNCUSSIFIED 



HIR03>4002 IIIVItB Hal.linril PAGE 89 

availability, how would that fit into our windows of 
availabilty ? 

And that was about the extent of it. Nothing too exotic. 
Q So you don't know what type of cargo was carried on 
those flights or have a general idea? 

A Oh, one would have to assume that it is the sane 
routing fron the same people that it was the same cargo. 

2 You don't have any information to suggest otherwise? 
A No. 

HR. VAH CLEVE: That is really all I have. 
Thank you. I appreciate your testimony. 
THE UITHESS: Surely. 

HR.' TIEFER: There may be a need to depose you on 
other topics than the ones we covered today, I think that 
completes the lines of questioning for today. 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 
[Uhereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the deposition was adjourned.! 



ifNcussm 



132 



UNCUSSIFIED 



STATE OF 
COUNTY OF 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC 



/J ^.~^. 



( To-Wit: 



I, the undersigned, a Notary Public in and for the 

County and State aforesaid, do hereby certify that the 

witness, ^t//^ ^JlLLi/^S /-fULUAAJ 

(Name of Witness) / 

^ (Address) (Cj 



f^Lo/C/ >Yi 



J>3^ 



(City) 
whose sworn 



(State) (Zip) 

testimony appears in the transcript of proceedings attached 
hereto, was first duly sworn by me and placed under oath on 



this 



/^ day of /r^^^,. 



^ 



, 1987, and 



has on this same date acknowledge the same before me in the 
State and County aforesaid. 

Given under my hand and seal in the City of 
/77.<rv«i." ' and State of ^ 



on this j^^ 



day of 



f <r itr^itniTi 



'T 



1987. 



My commission expires: 



^ 



^^ yy .^»7^~^^ 



(Notary P«fblic - signature) 
(Name printed) 
(Address printed) 



(City, State, and Zip Code) 



'^mxm 



133 



UNCUSSIfl 










?s 




134 



OO 



CO 




135 



l.f, '^3V J0//9 






iinmim 



I 



- /fpii^s - 






^7ff;r 



>^/*. 






/Jl^Wy^SSJJ^r) 



Bs^oc 




L 



/.?az. 






</^.*y((>V 



ST5- 



PH Declassified/Released on^X^Jte^-^ S 8 
under provisions of E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



"i^^^miim 



'W: 



Sflrr 000787 



136 






ONCLASSIFIED 






C»^..)g^ 73e«^,/r A^jter ^*iil"^j^^^^rr * ^ 

I*!.* >>oJ'i" L..>,, 7<-*« p^i ^*<*- ^«'-'— «- fUc.-*. - 

( Deci3ssitiea/Released on ^^-^^-^8% ■■■II I ll^VII-ILlB '-''-' ■ 



UNCLASSIFIED 



-'n iwn National Security Council W • ■ Wfc* •%/**■■ • "• v—TH I 



137 






p^ 



H1 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Q 



All p<rioDa«l laTolTtd «rrl««d tn dpha on Prldar •**ola(. I ate 
Seoct and totroduetd hla to tha loadaaatar, as that thara would 
ba aoaa confaranca on tha load. Tha follovlag aornlng both ;2J 
and 323 arrlvad at alpha on achadula. Tha crava latt tha hotal 
ao %% to allow approzlsa talf 1.5 houra of praparatloa prior to 
dapartura. Dpon raachlng lata Opa, I waa laforaad that Nr. Thoap- 
aoo (Cuatoat) would not ba In until Tuaaday, and that I ahould 
laava tha paparvork with thaa. I had aoaa alaglTlnfa about thla 
arralgnaant, but eoapllad laavlng tha S.E.D.'a In an 'ayaa only" 
anralopa and tha Canaral Oac'a attachad. Dpon raachlog planaalda. 
tha fual paopla advlaad that If wa wlabad to pay for tha fual via 
a Co. chack wa would hava to pay hla auparvlaor. It took iO 
aloutaa for thla gaotlaaan to gat to tha aircraft ae that wa 
could bagin fuallng. Whlla thla did not cauaa any dalay. It 
would hava If avarythlog alaa waa sa achadula. Uhlla all thla 
waa taking placa, I waa advlaad that not only waa tha load not on 
the flald, but that It waa not yat built up bacauaa of aoac 
confualon regarding ownarahlp of tha pallata (nobody wanta USAF 
property la DELTA). Whan I aakad how long thla would dalay ua , I 
waa Inforaad "three houra." They alao aald that they were led to 
believe that wa would not arrive until 1700. Hhaa I Inforaad hla 
that by ay calculatlona It waa 1730, ha aakad ■•, "What kind of a 
clock are you working off of?" 

Uhlle all thla waa taking placa, ay qualaa about the General 
Dcc'a got the beat of ae and I called Dick. Be aakad Scott If ha 
had apoken with Thoapaon'a boaa (alao briefed) and Scott advlaad 
he had been unable to reach hla. We than triad to get in touch 
with Mr. Thoapion, but he waa lunching. Whan ha finally returned 
our call (iO alnutea later), he aald "Don't worry, I'll have the 
Bate Opj people algn the Deca for you." Thirty alnutea later, I 
waa handed one Gen Dec on which waa written PERMIT TO ftOCEED 
OK'D BY THOMPSON OP U.S. CUSTOMS KELLT API. Thla waa totally 
unacceptable In aa aueh aa the laat thing we wanted waa a parait 
CO proceed (laplylng that wa would need euatoaa at the next atop). 
I called our euatoaa friend back and advlaad hla of our concern 
end he aald "Seaebody will be there In 30 alnutea). Thirty alnutea 
later, a gentleaan arrived and algnad and ataaped our Dac'e. To 
thcae, we attachad our "white" aanlfaat for praaentatlon to 
Canadian euatoaa. 

Once we were loaded It took another 30 alnutea before we could 
taxi due to a nuabar of avoidable clrcuaatancaa : 1) All of the 
freight for tha aacond aircraft had been placed directly behind 
our aircraft, 2) the CPU ran out of gaa, 3) tha alratart had a 
dead battery, and A) no ground personnel to aarahal ua. Once we 
departed, the flight to YQX waa uneventful until wa arrived. Aa 
a raault of our 4-hour dalay at alpha, tha weather at TQX had 
deteriorated to a very lew atata. Had wa departed on achadula, 
our arrlvel weather would have bean ao aaow and 30 allaa vlalbl- 
Uty. Aa It waa. It waa lota of anew and 1/2 alia vlalblllty. 
More laportantly, we were unable to utlllta thapp|(ir|rvn««T; fMch 
created a takeoff I would Juat aa aoon not rap^%y|< 'ji ! ', | | |; 



i^P Deciassifieo/Released on ^ ^Jav\ -6 8 
under provisions oi E 12356 
Dy K Jodnson. National Secunty Council 



UNCUSSIHED 



6RrO0081i5 



sra3 



138 



UNtlASSra 



other Chan th« takeoff, tti* trip to Ir4*e wta ootTtntful. Upon 
• rrlT«l, «• »*r< told to felIo» • *«hlcl« to a raaota araa and 
park oazt to tha ■taalon aircraft. Aftar ahuttlag 4e«p tha 
anglnaa, tha loeala vary quickly oftleadad tha aircraft (IS 
■lautaa) and wa taxlad tha aircraft to tha clTlllaa alda of tha 
flald. Onca tha aircraft «aa parkad I aakad tha grenad haodlar 
for a rlda back to tha aacura araa but vaa cold that would ba 
lapoaalbla. I had tha latdowo charta for C aad D, ae I coataecad 
Dick and aakad whara tha craw vaa. Ba Inferaad aa that thay vara 
alraady anrouta to tha aircraft. I thao contacted Ilchard at the 
hotel aod advlaad hla that tha other SAT aircraft (S23) would 
have the aaae plataa available. 



TXIP #1 TO DELTA TO IE PIOVIDED IT LBR TOOTLE 



TtIP #2, SRaVO TO CHARLIE 

Wa returned to Hlaal on Saturday night. On Sunday night. Dick 
called and advlaad ae that nagotlatlona had been auccaaaful, and 
aakad when vaa the earllaat we could fly a aacond trip. I 
advlaad hla that If wa departed Hlaal Monday night we would 
arrive In BrAvo on Tueaday evening. That would put ua Into 
poaltlon to operate Wadneaday night; (tha ahort notice could not 
be helped but It forced ua Into having to purchaaa extreaely 
expensive tickets). Upon arrival In IrAvo, wa were aet by Aalraa 
and escorted through custoas. Aalraa was under the lapresslon 
that we were to operate that Tueaday evening. I advlaad hla that 
T thought that was a alscoaaunlcat Ion and that I would check and 
advlaa. (An obvloua concern co ae waa arriving unwalcoae In C). 
After epeaklng with Richard, we were told that tha trip would not 
go eeoner than Wednesday night. I advised Aalraa of this and set 
up a aaetlng the following aernlng to work out the eea plan and 
dlacuaa the condition of the aircraft. The coa plan was laid out 
In auch the saae aanner aa the first trip. As to tha condition 
of the slrcrafc we were Inforaed that tha Iteae we had written up 
on the first trip were tsken care of with exception of the Oaegs 
which apparently had checked out O.K. I then aal^a^ if -ttiay .had 



UNCLASSIFIED 



S«r 000819 



139 



««sm 



chanfcd th* till I of th* aircraft to VI-lOX Inataad of cha IIBOX 
that had bean palatad lo arror. (Our ratlooal for cha foraar waa 
chat It »aa froa larauda, and loaocuoua Call # rachar Chan cha 
lattar which aar ba aora Inflaaatery ) . Aalraa aald chac It had 
aot baan ehangad but what doaa Ic aactar baeauaa 'for aa , It la 
BO problaa.** Whan I loforaad hla that thay vara ROt Cha paopla 
»a vara vorrlad abouc, ha laughad and ptoapcly ehaagad cha 
aubjacc. (Ua dlacovarad on our racuro Co Hlaal ChaC • > rachar 
Chan a V rapraaanta Chlnal) That a«anlaf ac approzlaacaly ItOO LCL 
an aaaoclata of ttcharda eallod and advlaad ua that wa vara on 
for that ntfht and that would Ilka ua Co arrlva la C at approxl- 
aataly 0700 LCL. I told hla that va veuld dapart at 2300 LCL. 
Ooca Alrboroa, wa diacovarad rachar quickly ctaac Cha Oaagaa did 
not work proparly. Dua to tha lack of VOI'a aaroota va otlllcad 
cha radar to fellow tha ceaat. (Tha eencara waa chac vlch radar, 
wa wara announcing our praaanca to aajbedy who alght ba llatanlng). 
Va aada all our Opa' noraal calla aarouta but tha HF fraquanelaa 
wara ao cluttarad with traffic that we could not hear cha raapoaaaa 
for cha aoat part. About 30 alautaa out of C we called Approach 
Concrol. They aaeaed alldly aurprlaad aad aaked ue Co coetacc 
Delta Approach and aaked for a deaceat. They aald negative, 
continue toward C. Aa It waa clear, ve began our deacant aayway. 
After arrlvel et C, we were aet by e auaber of offlcera all 
weacera-cralaed and 20 or ao anllaced aea who, for ch« aoac perc, 
looked like ragaaufflaa. In.addltloa to the Col. (r-4 tralaed In' 
the U.S.) there waa a gentleaan beat deacrlbed aa aoae aort of 
political officer who aaeaed to be e peer of Che Col. (he wore 
civilian clochee). We had landed juat ac 0700 LCL aa Inatructed 
but the Col. adviaed ua that they had Juat heerd froa the headehcd 
that we wara coatng and that they were In the proceaa of acraabllng 
r-i't whan they received the call. I told thoa that I believed 
that waa a coaaunlca t looa problaa on Chair aad in aa auch aa we 
had known the night before. la aay caae, while we were there, ue 
were cordially treated and it took thea approxlaately 3 houra to 
offload ua with • U.S. gov. liauad K loader chac waa on Ita laat 
lege. 



SKT 000820 



® 



UNCLASSinED 



140 



UNCLASSIFIED ^ 

Sea* ebatrvatlona vhll* oa tb* trouad at C. km with the first 
trip tb* leeala w*r* *str*aaly iat*r*at*d ia oar peiat of oricia aad 
what aatieaality w* w*r*.Tb*v war* iaferaad tbat oar peiat of eriaia waa 
*aoa*wb*r* ia luropa'.Aa to our aatieaalltr tit ia bard to balioT* tbat 
aaybedy weald aot bav* kaowe tbat w* war* Aa*rieaaa.Ia any eaaa tbay 
eoatiaa*d to aak.t told tb* 'political* officer tbat I waa Aaatriaa.aad 
l*aa tbaa 10 ain'a lat*r a aan eaa* over and atartad spaakiaf very peer 
Ceraaa to ae.In aa aucb as I apeak feed Ceraaa I'a aare tber were 
eeafaaed. About 20 aia'a after we arrived 2 f-t'a took off. The aircraft 
bad BO azteraal erdioance.aad ealir rolled aboat 2000 ft before tbejr were 
airborne. Tbey were tone aprex. 1 br. aad upon return did a nuaber of 
appreaebes before ahutttna down.Tba aircraft appeared to be in tood 
abap*. at l*ast viaualy.Tba (round e^uipaeat oa tbe otber band were in 
varyiDd atatea of diarepair .Tbe ealiated aen aad officera aaeaed to work 
well tod*tb*r .Botb croupe pitcbad in *qually,aad w*r* v*ry *ntbuaiaatie. 



CIAILII TO 



1Stif9 



Prior to atartind antlaea we inferaed tbe Col. tbat it wac very 
iaportaot tbat we be civen only a cleranee to takeoff froa tbe tower. le 
a**a*d to uadoratand tbat we wanted aiaiaal radio traffic, aad said be 
would take ear* of tbat preblea for us. After cleaiac tbe carte door tbe 
locale aaked if we would be wlllind to wait aaotber 2 bra.inorder tbat 
tbey aight dive ua a tift of caviar. I tbanked tbea aad aaid tbat we were 
expected to return at a certain tiae aad tbat it would be better if we 
did not wait. Tbey seeaed disappointed but said tbey understood. Instead 
they prcaented ua with lOlba of piatacbioa.Ua atarted ea«inee and called 
for a taxi claaraac*. Tb* tow*r th*n proc**d*d to bav* 10 aia'a of 
ceav*raation with ua cencornind wber* w* w*r* aoind what airwaya w* 
wantad what callaicn we were uaina atc.Oue to tbe shear fruatrstion of 
daallnd witb tbia paraen we aareed to aaytbina tbey wanted Juat to aet 
airborne and atop all this traffic. Once airborne tbe tower bad us 
contact departure eoatrol . Departure wanted aa to contact Delta center. 
Tbie we ianered.aa we ianored their repeated atteapts to band as off to 
Bahrain or Huacat ! I ! Aprox.2 bra. into tbe fliabt.abeaa tbe border of 
Oaan and Teaan we obaarved tbe contrail of aa aircraft at about 4SO0O(t 
trav*lina aucb faater than we were(we were at .(4 aaeb) oa a beadina to 
int*rc*pt ua.Aady lill in 1( hoars of flyiaa addad 10 y*ars to bis lif* 
by pickiaa th* worst poaalbl* aoaoat toloek out of tbe paaaenaer window 
to aiahtaee.At that aoaent a deaaert caaJtlqaed Jaauar froa tbe Oaan 
Airferee arrived on our riaht wina.Ubat be eaw waa a white 707 rea ( 
BIBOX at an alt of 34400ft juat outaide their FIB. Tbia ao doubt arrouaad 
tb*ir curioaity, as b* r*aain*d with us for aprox. 7 ain's.At on* point 
I eaa* up on 121. S and aakad bia as* Aaaricaa* aa t could if w* eeuld 
h*lp bia? I* r*apended that we need to be careful of tbe artillery in 
tbe area. (we are not aura what that aeant)In any ease left tbe area 
after a tiae witb no further coaaent . (we traasaitted oar iatercepted 
will advise aessaae via IF. bat it was asver received ia DTbe reaaindar 
of the trip was aoainal . 

Upon return to B we were aiven a nuaber to eeatact liehard in 
Geneva. The nuaber we were aiven was short one diait so w* were unabl* to 
contact hia. 

BICORUDATIORS ^rt^ >»...»«.»^ 

l.B*tt*r coordination at A . 



UNCIASSIFIED 



I 



141 



UNCLASSIFIED & 

2. An alt airport (or TOI 

J.An und.rotandln* wltb th« folk, at C eone.roln« ce. proc.dur.. 

Ana •ircfAit sTA. 
4. Stat* th* ontlro eporatlon out at Dl*«o Carela.(thla will allow 

«• to (lir tbo ootlra alaaioo and eroaa only ana ril. 



[)j;\ ... 

SAf 000822 



iiNtussro 



142 



«HWS«B 







SECtCCT OATH 



bcv* 



[Bti ipcciflc 



icBaMl«tf(* :ie«c«rDln( * itailtlv* cltidfitd opiritloa or ■lailoa 
partalBlni to U.S. Cevataaaac Spaclal Actlvlclat. I raallia 
chat thl( eparaclaa or alailaa It laeurlty eltailfltd wlchla 
tha taptee*|« Lawa e( eha Ualcad Scataa aad tha Raclaaal $aeu> 
rlty lagulatlant. I htva baan advliad that tha lafaraaclaa I 
hava ar will lala froa aa autherliad rapraaaacaclva o( tha U. S. 
Ca*araaaae which partala* ca thlt aparatloa er alitloa la alao 
elaaalflad uadar tha Eaploaafa Lawa of tha Oaitad Stataa aad 
tha Vatleaal Saeurlty tafulatloaa and thla lafocaatloa la not 
to ba ravaalad ta any unauthorliad partoat, fltat, aftnelaa 
er ert'aliaclaaa. 

I aa ebllgatad to protaet froa eeaproalaa whatavar laferaaclea 
I BOW hawa. Tha prlaary aubjacta to ba pretaetad ara: 

a. Tha fact that thla prograa wat Inltlatad or coaplatad. 

b. Tha datall of any coacapt which waa eoaaldarad or 
davalopad . 

e. Lltta of paraoaaal, facllltlaa, ethar apaclal atatta 
iBvolvtd la thaaa projactt. 

"I do aelaaaly twaar er afflra that I will aet dlvulia to aayona 
tha aatura, (aaaral er apaclfle,.e( tha alaalaa, aaal(aaaat, 
leeatleo, dutlaa, er aay laforaatlea davalopad ceac«raln| chta 
escape aa apaelfieally autherliad by the Matleaal Ceaanad 
Authority or daalgaatad rapraaaatatlva ef tha apaelflc ajaacy 
iBwolvad. I fjirthar uBdarttaad that thla each la lataadad to 
apply for aa tadeflalta period ef tlae.* 



twera aad aubaerlbad before ae 
chta /f day ef A^jQU . 



7^,:^ /K<^Pl 




(Slgaatura) 



(Wltn/tO^ 

CONFIOENIIAL 



realtlea ;^ CLu^^JJ/t^i^^ ^ 

001762 ^^rroo/'>4Z_ 



, ,,„v,smr,solE.O 12356 
,. „n National Secunty Council 



feS 



uNCUSsra 



143 



SCCtECT OATH 



^> 



#^ 



# 



^^"X 



^,(>- f ^fuiuM 



hav« gtlnad «p«clflc 



knowladf* ceiic*raln| • (•naltlvt elaidfltd op«r*tlaa or ■litloo 
p«rt«lnla| ce U.S. CovcroBaac Sptclal Actlvlcltt. I r««llt* 
that thla eparatlon or alaalen la aaeurlty elaaalflad wtchln 
tha Eaplonaga Lava of tha Unltad Stataa and tha Matlenal Sacu- 
rlt7 Kafulaclona. I hava baao advlaad chat tha iaforaatleo I 
hava or will (ata froa as authorltad rapraaancaclva a( tha U. S. 
CovaTDBant which partalaa to thla oparacloa or alaaloa la alao 
elaaalflad uodar tha Eaploaafa Lawa of tha Unltad Stataa and 
tha Natleaal Sacuclty lagulatloaa aed thla laforaatloo la not 
to ba ravaalad to any unauchorliad paraona, flraa, aianclaa 
or ergaalaacloaa. 

I aa oblltacad to pretaet froa eoaproalaa whatavar loforaatloo 
I now hava. Tha prlaary aubjacta to ba protactad ara: 

a. Tha fact that thla prograa waa Inltlatad or coaplacad. 

b. Tha datall of any coacapt which waa coaaldarad or 
davalopad . 

c. Llaca of paraoaaal, facllltlaa, othar apaelal aaacca 
lavelvad In thaaa prejaeta. 

"I do aelaaaljr awaar or afflra that I will aot dlvulga to anyona 
tha aacura, gaearal or apaclflc,.of tha alaaloa, aaal|oaaat, 
locacloa, duClaa, or aay laforaatlea davalopad coacatalag thaa 
ascapc aa apaelfteally authorliad by tha Ratleaal Ceaaaad 
Authority or daalgnatad rapraaaatatlva of cha apaclflc agaacy 
lavelvad. I fjirthar uadaracaad that thla oath la lataadad to 
apply (ot aa ladaflalta parled of tlaa." 



twora aad aubaerlbad bafora aa 



thla /^ day of /^^ 




(Wltnait) 



(Slgaati/ra) 



immm. ^^'"^^^ ^-00/7.^ 



i Opdassilied/Released on_ 
iji.jer provisions ol E 12356 
i; Jonn'/in Naiional Security Council 



«msw 



144 



UNCUSSIRED 






B. C. 
MASHINCTON 



-•:^ 



7. 



ic-"' 



NAINTEMAMCB SUPPORT 
MIAMI 



Partially Declassified/Released on lS^Oy<^ 8& 
under provisions o( E 12356 
By K Jorinson. Nalional Security Council 



OPBJUTIONS 

OIMCTOR 

N. Cooper 

CI 2 3K/C7A/M«ul»-)>C 



MAINTniANCX 
DIMCJOR 



J 


f.n^HHaJ 


- 


1 


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^^^cr9!K-cpi 1 


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F^w^rx-TT*— . 


t] 



Rtl/Avlonlca 



^IS 



Operational Oeatrol 
AdBiniatrativa Coiwand 
Oiraet Llalaoa 




Sfirr~ojj73i 




145 



UNCUSSIFIED 






7, 



[ 



i"b'a^ 



™"" Security Council 



SM 0all47 



\iNtm«i) 



(aF/CFWMl 



146 



0^^ 



^a. c^^<^^=^ of ^Ca^ 




5^t U01148 




WUSWfl 



CONFIDENTWL 



'"''■Classified/Released on Z-Cjevw88 
°-' provisions or E 12356 
■ ■'"" National Security Council 



147 



BNCUSW 




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148 



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From TUe Desk f 

'David v. mulligan 






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UNCLASSIFIED 



"artiailv Oeciassitifld/Reiejsed on ^ '5' Je-^^Bft 
unoer orouisK 's it E 12356 
tJyK Johnson ^aiionai Security Council 



35 



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CONFIDENTIAL 



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6y K Johnson. Na„cna. Secunty Councrt 



ii 



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150 



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under provisions ol E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



1 




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151 



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152 



UNCIASSIFIEO 






From lUt Desk Of 






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Partially Derlsssilied/Rcieased on J^J^j^^J llULnUUHILU Pni/r- 

unoer Drovisions 01 E 12356 LUNFinPKlTUl~ 

by K Johnson. National Secunty Council ' ''-'L/V / //j/ 



153 



INCUSSiFlEO 



SOUTMIWAIN MIA 
SOUTNIWAIK HIA 

i5*«$ ocrcx p 

TLX MH. T2/tS 



DTi 21.1. as 



TOi SOUTMCRN AiR TmANSPORT INC. 
fKOHi OEFEX-PORTUSAL^LDA. 

-SSl MR. PODUON/NR. HALLIOAN 
I ! 1 1 1 

ATTi i^N. POIRiON/HR. KALXIOAN 

1 1 1 ti : 1 1 lit t ti I in I n 1 1 1 t»i !i 

V/Rr URGENT 
1 i; J j> J ;; > 

WE ARC DEALING WITM *1R. WIECCNSPCRC TMOUMIPnCNT OP Amn| 
PUi lNrOR>< US PLIGHT NUMBER AND ARRIVAL 

MATERIAL ARE YOU AUTHORIZED TO LOAD 



ntavniBUi poirson 



I 

&TATMNAR TNDI 



/er 



A'S'^ 



THIi IS POIRSON 
PLj HOLD A MOMENT 

OK. 

I WILL MAV TO CONTACT THE AIRLINE 
AND SEND rOU TNIi INPORMATION 
WILL CALL BACK 
BlBl POR MOW 

OK BIBl 

nttn RSOARDS 
BIAS MITUNES* 
SOUTMRNAIR MIA 

1M6S OEPCX P 

PL* REPLY VIA TRT 



ift^ UU1155 



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under provism.'is ot E 12356 
by K Johnson Nalionji Secufl^■ Council 



Mhmm 



154 



UNCUSSinED 





While You WtRE Away 










SIGNED Jli 







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NCLASSIFIED 



Panially Oeclassifedmeleased on Z-^d^^gft 
under proraions 01 E {^ 

^V^ Johnson ^a„„„a, sec JrfLci. 



tAT 0(>115tJ 



WlDENTWL 



155 



DNCUSSIflED 



OK HIOSDSJ 
.MOCMJU 112154 

ATTN DAVE HULLiaON 

ARROW am INC 
FwlBHT FROM 

33 19«S 

CARSOi OPPROXIMflTELV M, Ma LBS CLASS 'C* EXPLOSIVE 

CONSlQNORl WOR^ " " 

CONSIGNEci 




m 



ocrri 

R£6 KBRi N£ieiOr 

OP£ftATORi ARROk AIR INC. 

795S NU 12TH STREET 
KIAM, FL USA 33166 

rO..LOi.:.N.5 PROPOSED SK£0 TIinES SMT 

FRY KSWF-2213MZ ' 

A.^^^IM2a£;0dZ CREW REST/ONLOAO CARSO 

0£;HH23:SiieZ 

fiss LPoz 23;8iaez fuel stop o^4LV 

OEP LPAZ e3l9eeZ 

ARR BcPO 2<,«:33Z FU£» STOP ONLY 

D£P WKPA 2*e23«Z 

DE;^^H|2<.dd3dZ 
fiSS^5sT£<.ii83iZ FRY 

6TN/hANDLER//U REP/RADIO/FUEL/FUEL OISPO' 



-/ESSO/~ 

inKPA/;.IAT/«R SROWN/— /TEXACO/ — 
RErtflRKSi AA/ALL TINES OCT 

SB/STATION MANAGERS AND REP PLS ENSURE THAT TWO COPIES 

OF THIS SET-UP BO INTO TRIP FOLDER ALONG WITH FLIGHT 

PLANS AND WEATH 

CC/A1.L 0N..0OD ■■^HH>ONE BY CHARTERER,! 

RESPOSSIBiJ^Of^RPEHWORK/STAIRS/APU-NORSAL GROUND 

HANDLING BUT NOT FOR ON-OAO 
DS/t.7AZ AND HKPA FUEL STOPS ONLY 
EE/DUE NATURE OF CARSO - ALL STATIONS INVOLVED PLS NOTIFY 

PROPER AUTHORITIES TO INSURE ORDERLY TRANSIT 




R808, JACK CREED 

I 

1BJAN2226 M42 JWN 



^'^^ 



rssse- 



UNCLASSinEO 



i*' Ouiisy 



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156 



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¥/ 






."Z^OZ:. £2 -.934 
Ci-33-rRafl|?<': 


R£v: 
4P^: 


i.>fi?^£'.;3«cZ PUEL STB? ov-v 

_2^^2*2:e«Z PL'S. STOS OV-V 
1^H.S?;33?Z C-CLOAO CARGO 
'-!'';fft7i73fZ. 


CRZ« c- -:v: _■.£ 


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r;79Y/.-- F_- C-- 







v.: 628 e?52 JWN 




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by K Johnson. National Security Council 



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roffffiyni 



157 



UNCLASSIFIED 










S^^ 



UNCLASSIFIED 




[ 



•"""■son, Nataaisecunty Council 



5^T 0J1I59 



CONFMrML 



158 



REQUEST rOR CHECK 



REQU 

date: i(/lrd I fiJ^ 

This check CO b* l(iu*d In th« «apuot of ) 
P.yibl. To: C:-^^ -^>' 






/q7 ijiijco 



u^Us. ^u^P 



Ctiarg* CO Acrount I 

Aprrov«d By : 

Rtqucsccd By: 



rh.ck NO. \hCfiO ^ ^<^ 

Chtck Dace: 3 'J''/-' 
Bank: S.E. Flrat National 



Flrat National Bank of Chicago 




CflNFlOENmL 
s« oonw 



UNCIASSIRED 



r cc^^^"^ 



^H' ^ 



Partially Oeclassilied/Released nn ^ J c:)» >^ " 
und^ir provisions of E 12356 
by K Jonnson. National Secunty CourKll 



159 



XiHtlASSlfi 



RROWAIR 





AORMMCNT Of AmcniJi tVkknk 








• m iitr " N«reh 


. ttfJ 


tm«K»nt 




■ftiifharn tli TzAAABOft. lac. 



calM M -CMittW. •!«« AHNOW «iMWAr( INC- • 0*ii««r* cwpertdoM.IMninaliweanMffM-CwTMr 

Be«i pcrtiM ri*ra»y ttrw le tl e« th* Mrm*. proviwoni tntf •ui«ii«nt> Imtmm. wi4 on «• f»»»ti» •>«• mtmI. 



asrar 



Wl».l tnt«rn«tlon«l Xlrpert 

^**' ^S w uiggfluw atTTDvnsnff- 

CHAAQt a CONSIOMOMO CONSIONtI O iouth.r^^r Tr»n«Dort 



futl «nd f ehnlcii ttopt 



tt n«c*>sa 



W»^t5lL/.*.U*«i^«M>.a i- 



CBART HtH »gl>EtS TO THt TgRJIS AMD COIDITIOWS ST»T1 I OHTBt 



RgVtR it SIDE HtRIOr »MC ALSO THB ADD:TI0W»L TBIWS iMD COWDITKWS 



STATE I tW ATTACHWeWT 'K' HERETO 



Having fIrM ntt til e< VM WnM. proMtlont 
«nd tiaitmcntt h«r*en vM en Vw r*««rM MM iMrMf. Ih* 
piriiM iitM iitcyMd M* •gntmcnt on ffy day and jwar 
fini 1 




David N. Sowara, Vlca Praaid«o< 







Pte« Up and O athwfY 



av Chart trer 



LOADING 



By C« 

By Char;fe, 



Inauranca Cftan* 



Hono Pre /tdaJ 



Cicaaa VaiuaUen 



Cha/gaa A d » a n c» d 



Wn 



»ALANC1 0U« 



Wona Dae larad 



^ 



75" 



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CONFIOENflAL^ 001749 

ICUSSW 



S,9-r ooi'^'^'^ 



. 2 ^4«?-&8 

Partally Oeclassit.ed/Rel^asea on— ^ -— - 

unoer provisions ot E 12356 ''B 

by r Jonnson, National SecunW Council ■mi 



160 



P fCUSSIFia 



ROWJtIR 



ACHtlMIlIT or AIUCIUfT CHAHTIH 

«TT»CHWt»T *A* 

ADDITIOWAL COTHACT TlKWl AaO COWOITIOIIS 



■otwithstandlnq any tcrai and eonditloni ttatad alsavhar* in this 
contract, tha followlnf additional tara* and eondltiona will applyi 

18. Chartarar aqraaa that thl* flight la to ba oparatad 
on tha following achadula (all tlaaa SHT) 

Aircraft will ba poaitlenad for loading at 
LIS approxiaataly 0«OOS/Mareb 17. 



Dap 


■ 


P3S91 


March 


17 


Arr 


SNA 


03002 


March 


18 


Dap 


SMA 


0400Z 






Arr 


ANU 


093OZ 






Dap 


ANU 


10302 






Arr 


■ 


Il330l 







Aircraft to ba offloadad at daatlnation and 
raady to dapart by lC30Z/March 18. 

Chartarar agraot that 'ahoold tha cargo not ba avallabla 
»t origin in aufflclant tlaa to load and dapart within 
thraa (3) houra of achadula, Carriar haa tha right tu 
raturn tha aircraft to Ita baaa of oporatlons. 

Should thla happan, Chartarar agraat that Carriar ahall 

ttlad to chargaa for positioning an^d dapoait lonir.g 
at tha rata of }4,700.00 par block hoar. 




(coatlnuad) 



5,< 001750 



7985 K W. I2tti SU«a« • Wivnl. Flortda UI26-ia99 
TaltpNina 309 9M-«aO • Ta«a< SZSOO • SHa: MIAOOJW • CaMc 'Arrow AJr" ^ 



UNCLASSIREO 



Partially Declassified/Released on 



z<^a^'i2> 



undei provisions ot E 12356 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 



161 



IfilffiSiFIEfl 



ACRtEMENT Of klRCKArT CHAKTER 

ATTACHMENT "A" 

ADDITIONAL CONTRACT TERMS AND CONDITIONS 



21. Ch«rt«r«r ihill b* rcipondbl* for providing to C«rrier 
a complat* <nd actual aanifaat of cargo to b« carriad 
on thia flight, at wall at any othar documan ta tion 
requirad by countriat of origin and dattination. Should 
tha docuaantation not ba accaptabla to tha pilot in 
command, tha pilot may daclina to oparata tha flight and 
Carriar will ba antltlad to collact tha chargat tat forth 
in point 20 aboTa. 




ARROW AIR, INC. 
David M. Sowart, Vlca Pratidant 



iU^ J- 



SOUTHERN AIR TRANSPORT, INC. 



/rtfj: 



5AT 



0U1751 



'^mminL 



S/4-r- roi')<r/ 



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162 



. SjOyTREM! AIR TKAMSPOtT. INC. 

mpfiED. 

Dae* Of Onckr /^tt^ // /fg-^ 



i/km ron: >^/W"7^ 



Pay to tha Ordar 

Aaount of Purchaaa: 

Purehaaa Ordar I 

Alrwayblll f 

DapartBcnt 

Charia to Account # ^ 

Approved by: / f /O i i.'w-*-^)— 
Raouattad by: 



(For Accounting Uaa Only) 

Chack No. iSl 3 chack Data: |— l^'F-' 

Banks: S.E. Hat'l flrat Hat'l ChlcaRO t^ 



CHECK REQUEST 

Data Of Chack: I- XP-S f 

Pay to tha Ordar of l^^^ r^j.J f\ . r- 

cha— *'•* ■* 

Purchaaa Ordar I 
Altvayblll f 
Daparcnenc 



A-ount Of Purcbaaa: i;2i,^F0R: _iS_:rW__Xw^ 
Purchaaa Ordar I 1 



Charga to Account # n^^r...^ 



~ ^^umimL 



Approved by: S^ 001752 

Raquaacad by: — ^ /~ 



(For Accountlnii Uaa Only) 
Chack No. l^^l 



■■>f-^i^ U) 



"•nka: S.E. Nat'l _ rir.t N.fl o., . OCl')rU 



Flrat Nat'l ChlcaRo 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Partially OeclassitieO/Released on_ZS'<^«uvv 88 
under pronsions of E r2356 
by K Johnson^ National Secunty Council 



163 



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OfOO iAT 

ojtoy^ouek Sum 
1200/1 St o 
fitc/ztoo 

23SO S-^X, 



(tA 



LH 



Panially Oeclassitied/Released on,2i0__«»->e8 
under Ofovisions o( E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Secuniy Council 




SS'3© 



\lHaKSSW 



PISIJI^T^ 



164 



=,„yNClASSIfl[0 



■iMMM KTuraar 






SOUTHERN AIR TOANSPOrrr. INC 

r.a MX tai, BRBMAnoMAt unn, louo, ooiw* ■!• 

OENERAU PECLAWATIOW 

(Oulvad/lBvad) 

AGnCULTW CUSTDUa. lUMKaiATIOM. AND FUKJC HEALTH 



^•^Si:, 



On* a OpMHr. 



SOUTHERN AIR TRANSPORT. INa 



I 



k: 



'SS^^ 



HIAHI. Pl/1 



TICUCICALP*. lOIDUIAS 



ruoHr mvnm 

1 1* M atfkt, MMT ■■ m il ik* a4 I ■■*■! 



TICUCICALPA 



M.. WEIIER (QSC) CAPT. 



J. SIM (OSC) P/0 



R. SIHONDS (use) P/l 



SOHPOM (OSC) l/M 



t. lOMAKDI (USC)Ixtia 
rr*M 



D*psti>« BoeK 



Pt da u Um i el H»aiai 

PVMH « Wa4 te«n !• k« wCMto* Iraa Bum •*« *M ^iIi U jw « »• 
ili m d aiMMii, a vil m ft«M iiMa ilMi -— ■- 

■ORI 



I M kM4 >tM MT Im< to *• «nai i< < 






UHCUSSIFIi 



AIICKAPT SPIATSD 20 HII. Iiroai AIIITAL 



Far aOdol um enir 



CLEARED 

MIAMI, FLORIDA 
.11. 




"CW IDENTIAL ; 



J 



I k *l» 9mmm* D iiIb Jifc «M k ar w0^%mm M m \ 



n«i»W » W R M i Iri vMl Mi Om i^ Diil»<i n n ««fl<H aol a^ kw« tti I 



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165 







<nilTll«lll ATI TH»«»n»T 



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-'iSTrnT "•''" ^ j««__lZJLUli. 



MIAMI, FL. D.S.A. 



S_ TICUCICALPA, lOMOUtAS 



PAril ARD 2 PCS OP 
OPriCI HACIIIES 



SS30 



■•ilr Deciassitiea/Releas 

under provisions ol 

0/ »; Johnson. National 



a on_2£J^JuS5 
12356 
scurily Council 



mSIHEO 



TIIIDMAL lACIOIAL 
ILICCIONIS 01 
BOIDCRAS 



—m amo^ 



'000688 



166 



SS'S 






)(\ 



UNCUSSIFIED 



/6' S^ ^s- 



^ ^JM i f il l I I /I f j»_ii till I /_ ; jj) i j f 



_'- «! ff inytniruiwe sT miasm mwN 




' (Mt ■■ /ar « "A ■>« A »<Mr " 



Mwhinvton, o.c aoeos . 



SSaairVSSaBal tluUrlnriw'd*' 



, r. Mte nOAete or ar. Ubarto 01mm 



301 R.W. 3Sth St. •iltM 430 
J lijail rlOElda 131M 



CX^«4!f 



T^ggdaalf . aatiat^ 2031/9/l6/f89 AT lOiO^ "M. 




DalaittaitMkiM I siua 

UOl rlftoaatii Stmt-MiW; 



igS^fStamQSSriSzpefC* 






'•I' T ii rTim i T ^iii ■ I ■ II i rrr ■ t'-i — n 



°«» I |»nrnn7,oco.oo »y7,ooo.oo 



DOQV* AtlJdMd to MS COC OQDSl^BBB . 



UM I.U.3S1 1 > 



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vwERNe 2fCB. cr 



V^p«l 7 2 Piaaa obb 
■lalnM da ecidaa 

UnjUlU OBBt (SKIP 
OORMICC f S22-000>040- 




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S^ 0JU689 



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UNCIASHD 



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D^iodtt* itaaUn • aiu« 
UOl PUtiMntb ttxwt HiW.- 



■toahiagtcn, D.C. MOOS , 



l3EaanS^S^lU^^aN*da 



Ir. >Am Ndaeie or 9k. Albsto 
^1. ja_43^4]/2>4I-M 



■.M. actti St. fultB 430 
I iljid. nariila 13U< 



i2n:-44ff 



■i.-;.v 



HTaafStanatlonBrACpcK?* 



^^^^^ . ■ ■■■ TiESic L y i ^eJS j fcj i^lGMST * — 

Tagirilqitlt*, aandafi goai/g/J^e; At 10:0 > HM.* 



AkMiMT e0000003U3 



T io^ a90Tia« 9 £mwcT »* 



"^|° K t n*S7,000.0C |tS7,000.00 



Dooi* 4ttAdMd to MS foe OBWiignM 



UPe 1.0.3311. 



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v»BKNC 3 PCS. cr 

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oommcT f S3a-«oo3-o-o(>- 

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363S^r 






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168 



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SHIPPER'S EXPORT DECLARATION 

or tHWMIMTt FROM THI UMfTIO (TATIS 
■ ■!■ I i n b»fc^waT«i I t,tn r Mill tmm»m*imf*mOmm9l\ 



l>MUaH>M> 



Mini PU. 



1 hWHW 



.52 lot 

nUMfOOMTOMaMMa 



coNntfNTuu. a-~t"vrs:r:r 



Oaloltta Hukija t SaUa 



« <4«>if A'UmWIUii 

Ibay Saiviaa* Pocwaidars Corp. 



'frtMHl-L-li. iriir j»n. inii 

1101 rift — i th StTMt N.N. -NlaMiigtsn O.C. 20005 



Tribwal (tacicnal Elaocio 



C501 M.N. 3« tt St. 9uif 43 HlJBd Ploclda 331M 
IXSSBXlfSmrSmSrr 



d> HonAma/Tagucifalpa HondurM C.A. 



g_ WTtftUtPUtt COHtlOflU 

Sr. Man Palado or Sr. Alfaarto Dlacva Tali 23-43-41/22-41-34 



•*^ Tagucigalpa 



MO 0* ptcMMOir MtcivnoH V 
'«». ti«o«r vctmt iiuMto 



Od otMf MM uMnal tniMl. 



Of {Mt Pipar 



Signing ttodUna 2- 



KJinjK'nS UNDU USAU> CUNT (ACT #322- 



Honduzvs 






42,0001 



D 256.3055 






676.1200 



)DD3 -C-00-556 t^WT 



lo«auuiu«Ti 



4U28I ; 45,000.00 



2 No. 



12,000.00 



1* tlU or lAMtaO* AIM WATKLL NUMttH 



OATIOf luomAi 



ATION fWM >««tilrM for 



tt. TMf UMOCIItlONIOHCRfaYAUTHOMZn. 



rSf 



■ak 



TO ACT A* FOnWAHOINO AOINT F0« U^OMT CONTROL ANO CUtTOMt fU«POSf t. 

Dioitf H—mn 4 Sallj rrorviciAORlMn.oni). 



^ «•: I Climrr tmat au (Tatimint* uadi ano ail informatiom cOMTAiNto in this txfo«r otoxunoN arc rwuf and coa- 

MCr. I AM AWAMI «0 TMI PtNALTIU MOV««0 F0« FAiM MFWMNTAnON. (Sm AnrWM I M M M ivwi* •!>>./ 

*^ MISC.M3 

^^^^^^^ *^\ ,u, l>o»y 8tv1c«« rorwTdTt Corp. 

6501 M.N. "3tth sTr'suitli 430**^— 1 ri«.' ni'tt '* - - ^._ 






UNClASSinED 



169 



) 



t>aiorttiriat>.lu k Salla ^.V. 
1101 PlftMDth •ttaat-Trntr: — 



HMblngtOB O.C. 20003 



fr. Ad*a ral««to oc Br. Albert* 01 
T*Xi 32-43-41/ 22-41-34 



FcEwmcTgi^ 



£^ ,gy**— ^•■»"»*»»»>— WWIIM iMIlpt 



■oa i«ru3r.£sm£;:%!s^ 



lto«y ■•rrleaa rervar4«rs Corp. ; 
CSOl I.H. 3Cth St. aBlt* 430 
Mlaal rla. 33K6 



01-1-0413 



Wlaat Intar national Ulrport 



TOO Southara Mr 



TeyueTValpa, BonJ iraa I 



Mr«NMr 00000003(41 



OSI 



SSE 



045,000.00 



045,000.00 



Oeea. attaehad to Am £oc aoaalgi 



isr;.t 4S4SI], 



IS 4S450 1i AS I n MM 3 jam' 



I'M ASK a seen 



A* nn Aa>BW4»t 



\_ iwwa^is^^ / 



[717 



\r: 



A* m ASuzMir 



-/C 



rAm 

rATKL 

BroEns ~> ^nei osaid 

COirniACT I 532-0003- 

e-oo-ss<3-oo 



Saloitta laaklM • Mlla 



■lae. 3(421 



' ^ t/lM/t* ■! — 1 rloria* <^^^^p — 



wussw 



■""cafiDEHiir 



170 






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ft 



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i 



fi 



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if 

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^5-330 



under provisions o( E f23« 

^''V^o.„scn,Nar,onaiSe4^„„„ 



!QUSSf\l^* 



171 



TRANSCRIPT 
OF PROCEEDINGS 

CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED STATES SENATE ^ 

COpM ^ SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 
IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



'^"iwfeiiawBM 



DEPOSITION OF ALEX G. NAGY 




A L 



Washington, D. C 




YOU 




Wednesday, March 18, 1987 

^ rtially Declassified/Released on /■^-'^■^~ ^7 
under provisions of E.O. 12356 
by N. M.nan, National Security^^i^^^j^L REPORTERS, INC. 

Sttnctypc Rfputten 
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UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF ALEX G. NAGY 

Washington, D. C. 
Wednesday, March 18, 1987 

Deposition of ALEX G. NAGY, called fcr examination by the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition, at the Old Executive Office 
Building, Seventeenth Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. , 
Room 115, at 12:15 p.m. before WENDY S. COX, a Notary Public 
within and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 



CAMERON H. HOLMES, ESQ. 

Associate Counsel 

Senate Select Committee 

Hart Senate Office Building 

Room SH-901 

Washington, D. C. 20510 

On behalf of the Committee. 



ALAN CHARLE RAUL, ESQ. 

Associate Counsel to the President 

The White House 

On behalf of the Deponent. 



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APPEARANCES (Continued) 



ARNOLD INTRATER, ESQ. 

General Counsel 

Office of Administration 

Room 48 

Old Executive Office 

Building 
17th Street & Pennsylvania 

Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D. C. 



ALSO PRESENT: 



DENNIS TETI 

CLARK B. HALL 

Investigators 

House Select Committee 




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EXAMINATION 






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PROCKEDXNGS 
Whereupon, 

ALEX NAGY 
was called as a witness and, having Cirst beeii duly sworn, 
was examined and testified as follows: 

MR. RAUL: If I could just make in opening -- soitie 
opening poi nts . 

MR. H0LME3 : 'iure. 

MR. RAUL: I want to note that Mr. Nagy is ' 
appearing here voluntarily pursuant to the letter request 
submitted by the Senate Select Committee signed by Chairmari 
Inouye and Vice-chairman Rudmaii. 

Mr. Nagy, beside myseJC is Arnoid Tnt.rater, 
counsel for the Office of Adminis trati(3n. This deposition 
wiJJ be unclassified, so that should any classified matters 
arise, in your opinion, if you (:ould just indicate that nhat 
might come up, we will go off the record and figuie out how 
to provide that information in another matter. Although I 
don't anticipate that there would be any subjects falling 
into that category, but just so that it is clear that 
classified information won't be discvissed during the 
deposition. Thank you very much Lor giving us this 



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EXAMINATION 
Blf MR. HOLMES: 

Q Mr. Ndgy, would you please atate your name. 

A Alex G. Nagy. 

Q What is your employment title? 

A I am the director ot: the Whitu Hejuse and Excjcu I: i ve 
Office of the President telephone services. 

Q How long have you had that position? 

A Since November 197fl. 

Q Have you ever had your deposition liakon beCon;? 

A No, T have not. 

Q I want you to just relax and listen to the 
questions. If you don't understand a cjuestion, sto^j me, and 
I will rephrase the question or ask anothet- question. 

A All right. 

Q If you don't stop me, I will assume tfiat you 

understo(5d it; is that fair? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q You have to answer audibly so that she can take 
down your re;?ponse. She is instructed not to try and tead 
your nods or your facial expressions, just the words, tlo you 




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understand? 

A Okay. 

Q If we get into highly technical areas, I would 
like you to l:ry and speak down to as general an audience as 
you possibly can, so we can understand the phraseology, take; 
the time necessary to translate, if you would, please. Is 
that okay? 

A Yes. 

Q I wonder if you could describe in general the 
White House system ovex- which you have control? 

A Basically it is the White House administrative 
teleph<3ne system, which encompasses the White House and 
Executive Office oC the President agencies within tfie 18 
acres of the compound. The system is a telephone system 
which we call on-premises, on-site location. It's in tlie 
basement of the Old Kxecutive Office Duilding. It providej 
telephone service, telephone lines, throughout the complex, 
approximately, I would say, 1000 telepliono lines are utili'/ed 
on the system. 

Q 4000 ilifferent telephones? 

A Telephone lines, the circuit numbers, Mnci.T, like 
four, five, six for one floor, wh.itever. The instruments. 





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now, |-.he telephone instruments, you pr<5bably ccjuld roughly I 

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double, say, QOOO telephone instruments throughout the I 

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complex. j 

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Q Who provides the instrumentation? j 

A The instrumentation is provided by the AT&T. 

Q Who provides the 1 ine service? I 

A C&P Telephone Company. I 

Q Under what kind of arrangement is the line service 

provided by C&P? I 

A It's on a lease-type, it's a lease with C&P and 

AT&T. Bol.h are uivier lease. It's been in ex is tonce , 3 ince 

day 1 at the White House, way back before my time. ; 

Q Tlie leaae-type system was in efL'ect prior to 

November of '70? 

i 
A Yes. 

i 
Q Is that pursuant to a contract that is renewed 

yearly? 

A 

Q 

A 



No, it is not renewed yearly. 

What is l.he term of the contract? 

As Car as I know, a lifetime contract, unless it's 



changeil by us. It h.i.-; to do with securii.y aspects to l.he 
Secret Service. The on-premines telephone switch was put in 



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place at the White Housu aCter the President Kennedy 
assassination. It was mandated by the Warren Coininission that 
we havo an on-premise telephone switch here Eor security 
purposes . 

Q Do the security purposes affect the way the phone 
system monitors itself for billiny purposes? 

A No, it does not. 

Q Does the White House switch operate as a regular 
commercial switch would for those purposes? 

A Yes, in essence, it would. 

Q So that if a long distance calJ is made from here, 
a biiling entry is created in relation to that particular 
call? 

A That's correct. The biJling comes fiom ATST feu 
.long distance. 

MR. RAUL: Is that in every case, Mr. Nagy? 
THE WITNESS: It is only in cases where you dial 
9, then the area code. And then a bill will be generated 
monthly designating where that call — what number originati^d 
that call, the numbers, the duration of time and the cost, 
just like if you were home placing a long distance telephone? 



call. 



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1 BY MR. HOLMES: 

2 Q How many other ways are there o£ making a long 

3 distance call? ! 

4 A Within the continental United States, the FTS I 

5 system, the Federal Telecommunications System. 

1 

6 Q Is that only other way other than dialing a 9 and j 

7 tl\e area code? i 

8 A Hell, there are ways -- let me defiirie a little i 

9 further about the long distance. If someone originates a 

10 call ill their office by dialing 9 and 0, it automatically is i 

11 processed tlirough the long distance outside our capabilities, j 

12 where the bill is originated, coming back, showing you that j 

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13 number. It they dial zero and get U\s White Hou:ie | 

14 switchboard operating, then the telephone switchboard 
L5 operator would place the call for the individual. The 

16 billing number would come back reflecting the main numbtir at 

17 the White House, 456-1414. 

18 Q Undei- what circumstances do people use the main 

19 switchboard operator to generate their long distance phone 

20 calls? 

21 A Usually — well, the majority of calls for your 

22 senior officials in the administration are placed by the 



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1 operator, where they would get the operator directly by 

2 either dialing zero or have a direct line to the switchboard 

3 oCt of the switchboard, where they would ask the oper.itor to 
1 process the call Cor them. 

5 <2 ^o, Cor the senior c^nCicials , therr; is no record 

61 of where the call originated as far as AT&T is concerned? 

7 A Not unless it's dialed directly from their 

bI telephone. 

9 Q Yos, because i J. they were through the operator, 

10 they simply reflect tlie I^Se-lAll origination? 

11 A That js correct. 

12 Q Within the system here on the U3 acrus, wh.it 

13 record is generated of the origination of calls that, in 
11 fact, go through the operator? 

]5 A Th^re is no record. 

Id Q Now, is the White House staff monitored as to 

17 possible abuses of the telephone system, excessive long 

la distance time? 

19 A The only way that they are monitored, the monthJy 

20 bill, which t get the monthly biU. In turn, I more or less 

21 do an analysis on the bill, to see what time the call is 

22 placed, location, so on. Then we query that office. And if 



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1 there, is some questionable liotibt .ibout the call. 

2 Q My question is how do you know which otfice to 

3 query? 

4 A There is no way to know from the switchbocird, i 1; 

5 it just <lesignates the number oC the office, tliat's the way. 

6 There's no way on the switchboard you would know where it 

7 originated from, because it goes to the 1411 bill. 

8 Q So the senior officials, in effect, have carte 

9 blanche on their long distance calls? 

10 A Yes . ^- 

11 MR. RAUL; Mr. NeKjy, are there any temporary 

12 records that are kept that you use for jujt — just to make 

13 sure that the telephone company hasn't made any mistakes? 
U THE WITNESS: Weil, the operator tiliflt-oafea 
\S 1 i ttle' ticket f «as~ the long distance calls, and this~i«-> 

16 basically an in-house operation. You utilize mostly foi- — 

17 say the call did not go through, for some reason or another 

18 it was busy or whatever. They would then ask if the person 

19 placing the call, if they would like for them to keep on 

20 trying that call till they got through. That is a daily -Jiype 

21 record that is kept by the operations of the operator. T do 

22 keep tlie tickets for the liing distance calls that are piaccil. 




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when I match it up to the lon.j distance bill to a.sur.. that 
that call actually did go through. Cor paying purposes. 
BY MR. HOr.MES: 
Q How long do you keep track of those? 
A Usually it's a month, because it's pr.ett^ 
to get a bill within a month's period. 

Q Arc; there except iojis to the one month? 
A There may be, on occasion. I think it has 
two montlis at the most. 

Q Have you impounded any particular months for your 
own internal information or any external requests over the 
last year? 

A No, I have not. 

Q So ail you have on hand now is perhaps ihi: last' 
mcjnth or so? 

A Right, February, I would say, yes. 
Q What do those tickets Look like? 
A They are manufactured by GSA. There are a 
standard toil ticket type. It has information — the number 
the call is coming from, the party placing the call, the 
number they are calling and the location, state or whatever, 
the country. The time that the call was placed. They put 



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1 the time down, when it was connected. 

2 Q What, do you do with those tickets on a monthly 
"5 basis oC where are they stored? 

4 A I have thera down in my office. 

5 Q Yon keep then in your office? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Yovi collect them from the various operators? 

8 A Yes. They are k-^pt in the operational area till 

9 the end of the month. The first of the; month, T take thctm. 

10 Because we cjet the bill in around the 10th ot the month, the 

11 long distance bill, we usually get it. That is for the 

12 preceding month. 

13 Q Let's discuss the FTS calls. How are they 

1 

11 arranged? 

15 A Okay. The fTS calls, t fiere are no rcicords of FTf; 

16 calls at the White House, since the sensitivity ot the switch 

17 and Secret Service interest in it. In order to have a 
113 record, GSA wanted to put some metering devices in their 

19 switch so they could get the information that they needed. 

20 This is back in, I believe it was in July of 'Q4 they came up 

21 with that request. Secret Service would not honor that. So 

22 tlie way that we are billed for FTS calls is basically by the 



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1 use oe the trunks. We have 55 FTS trunks in our telephone 

2 switch. A random survey is puJJed on the usage of that 

3 i.runk, broken down into minutes per month that it is used. 

4 That information is provided to GSA by C&P Telephone 

5 Ccjmpany. 

fi Q Explain the billing mechanism then. CSP does sort 

7 of a spot check random usage? 

8 A Yes. Whenever GSA goes to CS.P and requests the 

9 usage of the trunks, C&P provides the information during tnat 

10 time period that they are requesting on. It's usually in 

11 minutes in the day or montli that it's utilized. 

12 Then we are billed basically J i !<e on a flat rate 
11 basis. It's a physical year billed as genera tiir for the 

H usage of the 55 trunks at the White flouse. 

15 Q GHA allocates a budgetary tran>3fer frcim White 

16 House budget to general fund on the basis of that data? 

1.7 A Yes. Well, when we get -- when I get the bill, 

10 the bill comes to me, 1 further break it down on a pro rata 

19 basis. What I mean by pro rata, based upon the amount of 

20 lines that each agency has with the KTS capability on it. 

21 Q How many agencies are you talking about? 

22 A We are talking about 17. 




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i .Q Is Lhere a list soinewhere ot: ail ot these? 

2 AT couia provide a Jist. COP, 0MB. 

3 MR. RAUL: I am sure there is. In fact, it must 

4 be in the Code of Federal Regulations. Jvist the agencies 

5 within the Exectitive OEt'ice ot the Pres ideii I.? 

6 THE WITNESS: Yhs . Within our complex. There <-ire 

7 .some otitside oi; our complex. 

8 BY MR. HOLMES: 

9 Q These are all agencies within the Executive Office 

10 oC tlie President? 

11 A Yes within our compound, the 18 cicr(-s hctre. 

12 Q Then you, in turn, make the billing ti5 eacli oi! 

13 those 17 agencies as based ori a pro rata share? 

14 A Then on the pro rata, I provide the percentile 

15 back to GSA, who in turn bills the agency on a quarterly 

16 basis. 

17 Q GSA bills each agency direct? 
lU A Correct. 

19 Q I assume that from time to time people cali the 

20 White House with harassing or threatening intentions? 

21 A Yes, just abovit everyday. 

22 Q I assume that you have made provisions for that in 




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your telephone system? 

A We have procedures for that, yes 



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Q You wouldn't have any knowJedye at any particular 
projects t-.hat may or may not have tal<«n pLai:« 
in the NSC StaCC files? 

A No. 

Q Do you have pay phones on the premise? 

A Yes , we do . 

Q How are those managed? 

A Basically just like ail l".l>e oi-.her pay phones. 
They are usually on each Cloor, I think, at the end of the 
hall. You pay your 25 cents or 20 cents, whatever it is, .ini: 
make your phone rails on them. Just like any other pay 
phone. 

Q Are those routed through your White House switch? 

A No, l:hey are commercial lines. They don't yo 
through our switch. 

Q They are completely separate and apart, from your 
system? 

A Correct. 

g They would be accounted for in the same manner as 
any other pay phone in the District? 

A That's correct. 




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1 Q Through whatever the switcth and computer line or 

2 system that CSP has? 

.3 A That's correct. 

4 Q Are there any records oC — are there any 

5 electronic recordkeepiny systems in place on any Whlto H<3U3e 

6 telephones? 

7 A No, tl^ere are not. 

8 Q Are you talking about within your system at all? 

9 A I am talking within the system Lliat we have hero 

10 on our premises, the telephone lines Cor the KOB and Wtiite 

11 House go through. 

12 MR. RAUL: I assume you understand that all of 

13 Mr. Nagy's answers are to his knowledge. I am injt implying 
I 

14 anything else, but only that it is clear that Mr. Nagy is 

15 responding as to what he knows about that comes under his 

16 jurisdiction. I am not suggesting that there are other 

17 matters, only that this should be clear. 

18 BY MR. HOLMES: 

19 Q Let's narrow it down to what you know about it, 

20 okay? 

21 A Basically, it gets to be in a technical area which 

22 I am not that expertise in, when we are talking about the 



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1 telephone switch itself. May ot: List year, the end of: May, 

2 the last day in May, the present telephone switching center 

3 was implemented in the bottom ot this basement. They 

1 replaced an old manual -- Number 5 cross bar switch, best way 

5 tu describe it, the termincj logy , it's a manual I'.ype. Th<: 

f present system is called DMS-100, digital teJepfione switch. 

7 That was activated end ot May ot last year. 

8 The primary reason for the activation of it was, 

9 of course, the old obsolete one was really detrimentaL in 

10 maintaining it. They ran out of parts, quaJified people and 

11 so c)n. So the n«w switch utiliiies a state of the art 

12 technology, less people to man it, and the whole salesmanship 

13 that tliey give you with it. 

H Now, the new switch has certain capabilities in i r. 

15 that could be offered to a subscribed use, detailed call 

16 recording, for one, where it gives you information on eveTy 

17 call that is placed from the telephone going outside of the 

18 complex, nothing internal. 

1.9 In order to implement that in this switch, which, 

20 really, in our needs at the White House, there is no useful 

21 purpose for it, you would have to purchase additional 

22 equipment, you would have to go into an additional l«-asing 



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L requirement, leaaintj time, what they call time shared otf: ol= 

2 the switch from C&P, e.t cetera. We are talking a rough 

3 estimate oC maybe 100,01)0 to $lbO,000 to do that. Contrary 

4 to what they say about electronics, that you utjli/.e losr. 

5 people, that's not true, you would have to have more people 

6 to maintain records and everything else. 

7 There was no need Cor the -- tliere is no need for 

8 it here at the White House, trj have that type of 

9 recordkeeping. 

10 Q So you elected not to have it? 

11 \ Yes, like numerous othor subscribers iU;o liave 

12 it. 

13 Q Sure. Are employees of the Whi tt.; Ho\ise instructed 
11 to keep phone logs of their own pliones and 'tails? 

15' A There have been cases where it got info the 

16 political area during campaign time, where they ire 

17 performing a dual function, maybe, on a political campaign | 

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18 trail and so on, where they were making calls from their | 

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19 office where they were keeping records and making ] 

20 reimbursements for that, the National Democratic Comiiii t ti.-e or 

21 National Republican Committee would keep records and 

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recordl<eepin<j was done. Tlidt I know of. 

Q This was a cyclical type of recordkeeping in order 
to separal;e the politiCriL usaye Eroin the nonpolicicai usage? 

A That's correct. 

Q That liasn't been cycled through recently? 

A No. 

Q Vou are not aware of any other office policies or 
systems in which tlie employees keep tlieir own phone lines? 

A No, I am not. 

Q To your knowledge, there is no electx'onlc 
attribution of calls to a particular phone other than for the 
long distance calls that are not done through the switchboat-d 
and are not FTS? 

A That's correct. 

Q Are we excluding from discussion tlie miJitary 
plione system? 

A Yes. Like I stated from the beginning, my 
responsibility is on the administrative side of the hcjuse. 
The military comes under the juri .«!dicti on of the military 
office of the White (louse Communication Agency. 

MR. HOLMES: Alan, is this the system — 

MR. RAUL: That's correct. We had scheduled 



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1 another deposition Eor today that, by agreement, we havo 

2 postponed until another day, where a representative from the 

3 White House Communications Agency will provide Cor you l.he 
-1 information regarding the other- switchboard, that is 
b admini:i tered by the White House Communications Agency under 

6 military jurisdiction. 

7 RY MR. HOLMES: 

8| Q you have no knowledge of their switching 

9 techniques? 

10 A Their switching capabilities go through the same 

11 telephone switch. They utilize the same switch as cjurs in 

12 the central office. The onjy difference is they have their 

13 own prefix per sn, like 39S-2000 telephone numbers. 

14 Q That separates them for billing purposes? 

15 A Yes, they receive their own bills and however it 

16 is divided down. 

17 Q How are the two systems kept separate in terms of 
1(3 outgoing calls? , 

19 A Basically they are not. It's just whatever 

20 circuit or trunk is free at the time r.hey place the call on 

21 their utility lines. If they are making a long distance 

22 call, for example, thciy are dialing 9, they will get one oi: 



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the outside trunks to go outside, or FTS trunks, it you 
an FTS call. 

Q So for purposes of outgoing calls, they sort of 
piggyback in the same sharing arrangements with the other 
agenci es ? 

A Yes, utilizes the same circuitry, whatever. 
Q If they are utilizing the exact same circuitry, 
then the computer records they keep of their outgoing calls 
must be kept of yours as well? Is that not true? 

MR. RAUL: Mr. Holmes, what computer records Hre 
you talking about? 

MR. HOLMKS : The VAX system. 

MR. RMIL: You raised a subje<;t that Mr. Nagy 
didn't testify to, but drawing upon an earlier deposition 
tod.iy. 

MR. HOLMES: Right. j 

i 
MR. RAfJL: If I could just clarify that, that does I 

not relate to — I am not testifying here and 1 am just | 

trying to clarify this point. I believe that that refer<.Mic« j 

to the VAX system was to cable traffic and does not relate to 

phone traffic. 

Now I am not a technical expert or even 



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1 particularly conversant in this area, but my understanding is 

2 that cable traffic is distinct from telephotie traffic. And 

3 the cable traffic is sort of — is a different kind of 
electronic communication than a voice, telephone voice 

5 communica tic)n . 

6 THK WITNESS: We are talking about data traffic, 

7 computer data-type traffic? 

fl MR. HAUL: The point that Mr. Holmes is raising 

9 i:(3ncerns information that whether you call it eledironic 

10 traffic, I call it cable traffic, it relates to cables, 

11 telexes. 

12 THE WITNESS: That's an entirely different 
l.l circuitry that handles that. 

11 BY MR. HOLMES: 

IS Q I wonder if you could explain, first of all, the 

J 6 parameters of exactly what kind of service, it. is. You are 

17 . talking only about oral communications over voice 

10 communication lines? 

19 A Oral, voice communications, yes. 

20 Q So for your purposes, you have nothing to do even 

21 with a computer use of a modem ovor the telephone lines with 

22 the telephone 




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1 A No, I lion ' t . The only Lhinij I ge.t involved in is 

2 getting that ordered vip for the agency to request it and so 

3 on . 

4 Q How is that bilJed, not tyirough you? 

5 A No, it's billed through the agency directly. 

6 Q So they woiiJd have to have a specific least; line 

7 f(3f their computer modem traffic? 

8 A Yes. 

9 Q They would pay for that originally? 

10 A Yes. It would appear on your telephone bill 

11 monthly that they get. 

12 Q How many modems are there on the syutem? 
13| A I have no idea. 

11 Q The only way we could find th.it out would be to 

15 look at one of your monthly master bills and checlf out the 

Irt rental tor locjse lines? 

17 A Fven in that case you probably wouldn't be able to 

18 get the information, because all it says is for .sefvice. It 

19 doesn't break it down basically on your modems or whati-vf;r. 

20 Q Where w<5uld that information be available? 

21 A Through, probably, on for our side, administrative 

22 side, would be our automated systems <iivisic5n. 




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1 Q AutomAted sysf.ems division ol; what.? 

2 A Of the Office of Administration. 

3 Q Who is that? 

4 A Mr . Jules DviPeza. 

5 Q Jules DtiPeza? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Could you spell it, please? 

8 MR. INTRATFW: Capital D-u-capi taJ P-e-z-a, first 

9 name Jules . 

10 BY MR. HOLMES: 

11 Q So there is no computer m<jdem use of the lines 

12 that you control? 

13 A That's correct. 

1-1 Q Could you explain thp difference between the vaicc; 

ISi traffic in its electronic c:ommun ica tion with cable and telox 

16 traffic. 

17 A I will try to put it down in simplest terms, 1 tkc; 
10 you say. 

19 Q Yes. I would appreciate it. If you can make me 

20 understand this, then you are d(3ing a good job. 

21 A Tf I can understand it myself. Probably the best 

22 way to define it, for your cablin<; and your special service. 



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1 like Cor data and secure voice and so on, is a reCinerl 

2 circuit that -- that is engineered for that purpose of 

J passing that type o£ tratfic, cabling, secured volco and 

4 data. 

b your voice circuitry is just your everyday 

6 common-type voice telephone line. So there is an engineering 

7 process that is utilized in the special circuitry, as we 

fl say. 11; hau to be eiigineered by the telephone cijinpany Eor 

9 the spe:cif ications , whatever it is going ro be iitiJi;icd for, 

10 basically. 

11 -Q These all pass through the same S5 trunks that you 

12 have talkr!<i about? 

13 A Yes. They cciuJd, or Lhey could have a direct 

14 capability. What t mean, if you had a special cii'caic from 

15 here to the Department oC Ddfense, they could run a circuit 

16 in f.oL- that capability, yes. 

17 Q That would be a Jease line? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q And it would be specifically engineered to go 

20 trom -- 

21 A From point A to point H, right. 

22 Q T a 



ssume that such lease lines do exist for st>cuc< 



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1 communica tions between the White House and various of the 

2 agencies? 

3 A That's correct. 

4 Q So, for example, CIA, Department of Defense, that 

5 kind of thing? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Are those circuits susceptible of any additional 

8 recordkeeping than the regular voice circuits that you have 

9 aJ ready de-scribed? 

10 MR. HAUL: Mr. Holmes, when you say ".susceptible 

11 of," would you clear that up. 

12 BY MR. HOLMES: 

I 

13 Q ^^e they capable, firjt. Then we will get into 

l-l whether or not you exercised that option. Let me ask you 

15 this, do they go tlirough tlie same switi:h? 

16 A Yes. 

17 . Q So they go through your new DMS-100? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Does that mean that sirice you haven't exerci.'ied 

20 the option of having the call origination rocor<ikeeping 

21 capabilities on the voice lines, that you likewise do not 

22 exercise the option to have it ou any of the;ie others? 



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A That: 'is correct. 

Q So there are no records of any of these other 
kinds ot: services on a use-by-use basis either? 

A That's correct. 

Q That includes cable? 

A Yes. 

Q Secure voice? 

A Now, Lhis is to my best recoJJ ec t ion , because-, 
again, the majority of these circuits in that catei;oty cuniii 
under the control of the White House communication base, 
secure voice, for example, a lot of your cablLn<j, 
telecommunications center, al] of that, that is all under the 
White Hciuse C(3ramunicat ion . 

MR. RAUL: Under the; DMS-100 switch under the Old 
Executive Ol'fice rtuildinrj. How much oC it is under your 
jurisdiction? What component of the data t^lat is trATi.sferrcnl 
through that switch? Xs it just voice on l:he Whitii House 
.swi tchboard? 

THE WITNESS: f es . 

MR. SAUL: Non-secure voice? 

THE WITNESS: Non-secure. 



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1 . BY MR. HOLMES: 

2 Q All right. And all the rest of the WHCA trafCic? 
^ A Yea, your specialised circuits or whatever. 

4 Q WouJd that include any data transmission over 

5 plione lines? 

6 A There ats some data transmission over phone lines, 

7 where il: you have an office that has a Wang, for example, 

8 where they could just use the telephone by setting it in the 

9 cradle and transmitting, tliere are some oi'ficea within i.he 

- 

10 complex that do tiave that capability. 

11 ^ Q Is that perceived differently for CS.P purposes. 

12 than use of that same ] ine for a voice conversation? 

1.3 A No, not that I know of, because they are uciiizing 

i 

H the voice Jine for that. 

15 Q. Al.l you are going to get on the bill ir a bill for 

16 a phone call that originated from such-and-such a phone on 

17 such-and-such a date and time to such-and-such a phonc! and 
Ifl looks like any other telephone conversation? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Q even though what actually was transpiring <5n that 

21 line is the transmission of computer data? 

22 A That's right. 



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Q Would tlLit also be true ot other specialized 
decryption-typf! transmission services like the KL-'13 device? 

\ Ayaiii, that's in the White House communici t ion^- , 1 

have no knowledge of that. 

Q Okay. 

A When we talk secure, secured communications, that 
is not mine at all. 

Q Any form of secured communication device that 
exists in the If) acres is something you are not prepared ti5 
talk about? 

A Yes, sir, that's correct. 

Q You don't know about it? 

A I have an idea how it worka, but T don't know Lhf-? 
whole — be an expert on it to talk ab<jut it. 

Q All right. Are you aware of any written ) ogc of 
phone calls of any kind that are kept in the Wliite House 
compound? 

A Yes, I am. 

Q In addition to the ones we have; talked about, kc:pi 
by the main switchboard. 

A That's right. 

Q Are there any othors? 



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1 ^ Yes. 

2 Q What are those? 

3 ^ There is a presidential call lo«j. 

4 Q Who keeps it? 

5 A All presidential calls, incoming and outgoing, are 

6 processed through the White House switchboard. 

7 Q To the main switchboard? 

8 A To the main switchboard. 

9 U Designated operator or any operator? 
10 A Yes, there is an operator. 

H Q A designated operator just for this purpose? 

12 A One on each shift, yes, there is. 

13 Q Go ahead. 

14 A The log, as s t.i pvilated, is for ingoing and 

15 outgoing calls to the president. The operator th.it h. indies 

16 thein, receives them, logs it on a log, presidential call log, 

17 • then, of course, processes the call. Then at thw end uf e.ich 
Ifl day, 2 4 -hour period -- 

19 Q Does the log include the beginning and end of the 

20 call? 

21 A It has the time the call came in and th« time it 
22 



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1 .Q How was she aware of l-he disconnection? 

2 A It's a manual switch where she puts up a set of 

3 cords and a light comns on, basically, g«nerally wh«n r-.hi; 

4 ca.l] is finished. She just puJ.ls the c:ord.«! out. 

5 Q This is sort of like the old days with tlie worn^n 

6 with the headphone? 

7 A That's correct. That's basicalJy what it is, 

8 basically. A switchboard. 

91 Q So whenever the light goes out over the slot that 

10 she haa working, slie ju.sl: pulls the cord out when t.lie call is 

11 done? 

12 A That's correct. 

13 Q It's not something that -- 
H A It's not electronically. 

15 Q — likely to be ina<lvftr ten t . She is either 

16 plugged in or not pulled in? 

17 A That's correct. 

IB Q What happens to the logs? 

19 A At the end oL the day, 24-hour period, the logs 

20 are typed up, and a copy is put in a sealed envelope and 

21 handed over to the personal secretary to the president. The 

22 logs are for archive purposes. Then our responsibility ends. 




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1 our working copy is destroyed. 

2 Q The actual original moment of transaction record 

3 is destroyed? 

-1 A Yes, is handwritten by the operator. That is 

5 destroyed. The typewritten one is official. 

6 Q Who types it up? 

7 A The midnight shift operator. 

8 Q Who is that? 

9 A Well, we have three different peopli-i on the 

10 midnight shift. It could either be one of the three 

11 telephone operators. 

12 How do t^ley type it? 

13 A On a — I think i t ' :j an IHM Selectric typewriter. 

14 Q It's not a word processor? 

15 A No, it's not a word processor. 

16 MR. RAUL: Do you save tfie ribbons on the 

17 Selectric typewriter? 

Ifl THE WITNESS: Do we save them? They are thrown 

19 after they run out, put in the burn bag or h.aknn off. 

20 MR. HOLMES: Thanks, AJan, that was my next 

21 question. 

22 THE WITNESS: They are destroyed once it's u;;c'cl 




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MR. RAUL: It's a team effort. 

HY MR. HOLMES: 

There is only one copy crertted? 

Yes. 

There is no additional backup copy or anythincj? 

No, just the working copy l:hat i.he operator fill; 



out . 



Q Are they destroyed at the sntne time the typed copy 
is created? 

A They are maintained in a cabinet for the end o.f 
t".he month, in cise there are some questions on it, any 
qutislionii ahciut number, so on, might call from the archives. 

Q What does the personal secretary oi. i.he president: 
do witli L^leir typed version? 

A I gue.ss it goes to the archives. I h.ive tu5 idea 
what she does with it. 

Q Since you don't, in your normal course of 
business, preserve any of those records, you wouldn't have 
responded' to any kind of re<iuests for those records in i.he 
last year and a half, say? 

A There have been re<2uests for pres iiien t Lai call 




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1. logs, I .im trying to think, recently. Was the Challenger 

2 within the last year? 

3 Q yes, a little over a year ago. 
1 A Yes. I think a general memo came- down from 

5 Capitol Hill requesting records ofi any calls l.hat we had. 

6 Tfiat was beyond the time period we had the logs anyhow. 

7 Q So yc3u had tcj respond as you have just responded 

a to me, and that is if they want those records, they will have 

9 to approach I. lie presidential secretary in the archives? 

10 A Yes, b.isically I responded I don't have the 

11 records. T think it went out as .i general-type thing t"rom 
^? the White House, big document. t had input into it. 

13 MR. HOT.MKS : Ml right. Otf the record. 

1 il (Discussion off the record.) 

15 RY MR. HOLMES: 

16 Q Mr. Nagy, T would like to talk about Ccill:: 

17 completed within the system from one phone within tlie systein 
IB to another phone within the system. Do those also travel 

19 through the switch? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q And doing so, did they create any record ot their 

22 having been tl> rough the circuit? 



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I A No. 

"> Q So there is no billing effect whatsoever to thrtt 

3 tielephone call? 

'' ^ No, it's dJ J internal, four dicjit dial, whalevex, 

5 just dial the numb«r. 

6 Q VoT maintenance purposes, are thftre any elc-ctronic 

7 memories of what phono <:alis ar<; beimj made? 
H ■ A No. 

9 Q How do you know that? How do you know there it: no 

10 such record? 

11 A. WeJ ] , basically because of what we are utilii:inq, 

12 I don't see h(5w they could have the i:apability on it. You 
1.1 would have to approach a piece of equipment we are taJkinci 
111 about to have detaileil call recording or to be able i.o r.tjlL 
J5 how calls we generate are going to. 

16 The phone on the desk there, there is th(i old whai. 

17 . they caJi A-1 keysets. T think what you are trying to say, 

18 you have a lot of: your new electriDnic telephone sets that are 

19 out on the market that have capabilities of Jast number 

20 dialed, recording, so on. We dcjn't have that. For security 

21 purposes, they are not within the compound. Secret Service, 

22 again, evaluates all the equipmM^^Lha t we have in here, and 



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1 there are certain specifications that then you would havo to 

2 meet; those phones have been in operation, again, beCore T 

3 was here, probably a good 20 years easily, 25 ye.irs. 

4 Q So you are saying that this A-l set ht-re in this 

5 ofitice is the prototype of all the other ones in the 

6 compound? 

7 A Yes . 

8 Q There are no other vendors, then, other than ATS.T. 

9 and no more modern phone systems in use? 

10 A ATST does have a telephone system, it's called the 

11 Merlin, I believe, M-e-r-l-i-n. Again, l.he White House 

12 Communications Agency utilizes these telephone sets. It's 
131 mostly in a trip environment, where its easy ai-.d compact to 

I'll take out on a trip when the president travels, Ihe staff 

1 

l^ travels. There are some in usage by l:he Whii.e House 

16 1 Communications Agency, and their area of responsibility. I 

17 believe they provide service too. 

18 There are a few others that were put -- they are a 

19 lot easier to install, faster io install. Tower Commission, 

20 for one, we had one put in for them and a few othci places 

21 that they needed it immediately. 

22 Basically, a good 90 percent of your telephone 



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1 system here wif.hin the White House ia ri<jht there. 

2 Q The phone ccimmunicati ons used when the president 

3 travels, I assume that's all within the WHC^ ambit? 

4 A Yes, that is their primary resporini bi J i ti es . 

b Q Are there phone pagers in use within thu compound? 

6 h There are page boys, like I have one he;rc, yes, by 

7 the White House Communications Agency issues it. It's 

8 basically on a tone-type arrangement, where you have a 

9 three-digit dial that they program into their pager per se 

10 and it sc;nds out a beeping tone, and that indivjdvial knows to 

11 call to the White House Communications number and £ind out ir 

12 it was paged or whatever. 

13 Q Thu ccjmputer that switches those over is also a 
11 White House Communications Age;ncy? 

15 A White House Communications Agency. I thvnk it's a 

16 Motorola, I believe it's provided by Motorola, that's who the , 

17 pagers are from. 

18 Q The maker of the pager is Motorola and the maker 

19 of the switch is Motorola, but the operation of the t^quipmcnt 

20 is done here on the compound? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Are there any digital pagers on the compound? 



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1 -\ Not that I know oL'. Again, WHCA would have l-.o 

2 answer that; if they have sorae new updated equipment, T am 

3 not aware oC it. 
1 MR. RAUL: Let the record show that Mr. Natjy 

5 showed Mr. Holmea the page boy that he had in his own pockot, 

6 for the benefit of those reading the record, who wonder what 

7 wtj ate talking about. 

8i HY MR. HOLMKS: 

9] Q The one yoii showed is not a digit')! pager; 

10 correct? 

11 A No. 

12 Q It doesn't r«ad out, it simply gives you a toncO 

13 A It gives ycju a tone and you would call into the 

M number, the WHCA switchboard number to find out who is paging 

15 y(5u. 

16 Q They would tell yovi which person had paged? 

17 A Correct. 

Ifl Q In order to do that, they would reference the 

19 record.s they had there? 

20 A Yes, they would have to have records of who is 

21 calling. 

22 Q Hut to your knowledge, other than perhaps WHCA, 



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there are no digital pagers? 

A Some of the telephone company people on the 
premises have their own witliin the system, AT&T and Cf,e . If. 
we are talking about staff people, not that I know, unless 
they went out and purchased their own aomewhere. 

Q If they purchase their own, you do know that they 
diiln't do it with your budget, though; right? 

A That is correct, that is corrtict. if. they 
purchased their own, it wouldn't be tod through our tc;lephoii« 
switch, jt would be a commercial number on it like dny 
other. 

Q Right. So i (: they are carrying 1 he-m around, :t's 
becausH they bought theii- own, they are paying their own 
monthly fees and they are using it for whatever business; they 
have? 

Ttiat's correct. 

Have you ever seen anybody with them? 

Other than the telephone people that I deal with. 



no. 



Q Mr. Nagy, on looking for records, whether 
electronic or physical, that would reflect telephone use. 
either from a particular or from particular individuals or 






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1 £rom or Cor particular stations within the White House 

2 compound, I want to ask you an open-ended question, whether 

3 you can tell me whether any such record exists anywhere, 

4 whether physical or electronic. 

5 MR. RAUL: White House statt or executive 

6 president of the White House staff? 

7 BY MR. HOr.MES: 

8 Q Any person, group or agency within the compound 

9 that you are aware of. 

10 A Again, I am not aware of any, other than the ones 

11 that T have mentioned. 

12 MR. RA(1L: Does your question exclude members oT 
lil the First Family that tl-\e residents — are there any record;; 
1 "1 for any members of the First Family? I don't think it's 

15 necessary to go into detail if there are such rec:ords. Hut 

16 if you can teJ 1 Mr. Holmes. 

17 THE WITNEHS: There is a record for a member of 

18 the First Family. Again, this is an operational record. 

19 Secretarial service, when they are going through the 

20 switchboard, rely on the secretarial service. 

21 MR. RAUL: Off the record. 

22 (Discussion off the record.) 



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1 MR. RAOL: We ju3t had a discussion ol!C t.h« reconi 

2 regarding certain telephone operations provided as a courtesy • 

I 

3 Cor members of the First Family. Just leave it it that. I 

4 BY MR. HOLMKS: ' 

5 Q Very well. Accepting the special records kept Cor . 

6 the presidential calls and for the First Family calls, are j 
7| there any other records that fit the description that I asked ] 
ol yc3u a moment ago? ' 
9 A No. 

10 Q That includes whether they are electronic or 

IL physical, whether they are kept here on the premises cjr 

121 elsewhere? | 

i ; 

1 il A Yes. ; 

I4'l MR. HOLMFS: I don't have any more questions. ^ 

15 MR. TGTT : No, thank you, I am s.i tis C ind. 

i 

If) MR. HAI.L: I do not. 

17 MR. RAtJI,: Thank you very much, Mr. H(3lmes. 

18 MR. INTRATFIR: Off the record Cor a minute. 

19 (Oiscussicjn otf the record.) 

20 MR. RAUL: We would like to thank the Senate and 

21 House Select Committees for this <3pport\ini ty to provide 

?.2 information Cor their investigations, and formally request at 

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l-.his i;ime an tjppo rtun i ty t-.o review Llie transcript oC 
Mr. Nagy ' s deposition and to retain a copy of that 
deposition. There are also certain areaa Uiat we have 
discussed with Mr. Holmes that have been testified to that wtr 
will review during the course ot our c:on.s ideratii^n o t tho 
transcript . 

(Whereupon, at 1:20 p.m., the deposition was 
<:f)nc luded . ) 



^LEX NAGY 








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CERTIPICAJg. qa^BO'K^^ fttCt<['^ t'^REPORTER 47 





I, WENDY S. COX , the Officer before whom 

the foregoing- deposition was taken, do hereby certify 
that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 
the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand 
and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under 
my direction; that said deposition is a true record 
of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 
any of the parties to the action in which this 
deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 
emp loved by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of this action. 



Notary Pub Ixf in and for the 
District of Columbia 



My Commission Expires NOVEMBER 14, 1987 



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C^CIAL TRANSCRIPT 
PROCEEDINGS BEFORE 



nNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
CONGRESS 0? THE UKITBD STATES 



ta tha Matter of: > 

) 
TESTIMONT BEFORE THE SENATE > 
SELECT COMMITTEE OR SECRET ' ) 
MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO IRAK AHO ) 
TH£ NICARAGDAN OPPOSITIOK ) 



OEPOSITIOH 0? SfilRLET A» NAPIEB. 



Vcsli^ascoit, Jy, C. 
April 10, 1987 



ALOe^SOM F€PCf(ilNG 

'202) 628-9300 

20 F STUEET, N.W. 



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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
COhCRESS OF THE UNITED STATES 



1 

2 

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-------- --------J 

' In th« Natter oft t 

TESTinONY BEFORE THE SENATE ( 

SELECT CONNITTEE ON SECRET I 

NILITARY ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND t 

THE NICARA6UAN OPPOSITION t 



Washington* O.C* 
Friaay* April I0« 1987 
The Oaposltion of SHIRLEY A. NAPIER was 
convanad at lt45 p.a.« In Room 220« Hart Senate Office 
Buildingt Washington* D.C«* the witness being first duly 
SMorn by JANE u. BEACH* a Notary Public in and for the 
District of Coluabla* and the proceedings being taken 
down by Stenoaash by Jane W. Beach and transcribed under 
her direction* 



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^ APPEARANCESt 

2 HARK A. BELNICK* Esquir* 

3 CAMERON H. HOLMES* Esquire 

* VICTORIA F. NEURSE* Esquire 
^ United States Senate 

* Select Coaaittee on Secret military 

' Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 

' Opposition 

^ Hashknfltont O.C* 
10 

1^ KEM H. BALLEN* Esquire 

''2 U.S. House of Representatives 

^3 Washington* O.C. 

14 

^5 6ERAR0 F. TREANCRt JR.* Esquire 

^* Venable* Baetjer and Honard 

^7 Suite 900 

IB 2000 Corporate Ridge 

19 ncLean* Virginia 22102 

20 17031 74S-3500 

21 On behalf of the witness 
22 



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£JI.ll.I.E.li.: 


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QtBflaliiflo.fiii 


£xaiii 


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SHIRLEY A. NAPIER 




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By Mr. 


Balnlck 




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Exuiaus 


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tlailiS£.fltAfl2iliflO 


£aas 


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Extiifiil.llA« 






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^ HR. BELNICKt 6ood afternoon. 



Whereupon* 
* SHIRLEY A. NAPIER* 

^ called as a ttltncss herein by counsel for the Co«alttee* 
^ Mas aKaained and testified as folloMSt 
^ EXAMINATION 

BY HR. BELNICKi 
Q Ms* Napier* by Mhoa are you eaployed? 
A Stanford Technology Trading Croup 
International. 

Q Soaetiaes kno«n as STTGI7 
A Right. 

Q For hOM long have you been eaployed by that 
coapany 1 

A Three and a half years. 

Q You were hired roughly In Noveaber 1983? 

A Correct. 

19 Q Nho bired you for that? 

20 A Mr. Secord. 

21 Q Is that Richard Secord? 

22 A Yei. 



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Q Mould you trace your •■ployaent at STTGI sinct 
2 your hiring In 1S83? 
3 



(HItntst sworn.) 
BY MR. BELNICKt. (RosuMing) 
Q Mould you traco your •■ployaont history at 
Stanford since Octobar *83? 

A I startad in Novaabar '83. I Morkad full-tlaa 
until March of *e9« at Mhlch tiae I want to part-tlae 
and Ment to school* Nay of *8S through tha alddle of 
Saptaabar *89* I did not Mork at all for Stanford 
Technology • 

In tha alddle of Sapteaber of *85« I started 
part-tlae and continued part— tiae through March of *86. 
April of *86 through the present* I*ve been working full 
tiae. 

Q What ware your Job responsibilities between 
*83 and your return to full tiae work In April of '86? 

A I started out as a secretary* Me were setting 
up tha office* so I set up the flies* did soae typing* 
answered the phones* 
21 When I returned in March of *86 full tiae* I 

^ was hired as a staff assistant. I did accounts payable* 



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I did SON* tra«*llng with tlr* Secord* I ran trrands* I 
arranged for visas* 

Q Arc those tha general areas? 

A Ysst general. 

Q NoM* you say you've run errands for Hr* Secord 
since Aprl I of l<i86? 

A Yes. 

° Did any of those involve visits to the Old 
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Executive Office Building In Hashlngtont D.C.7 
A Yes. 

NR. TREANORt Excuse ae. Before mo go any 
further* I wonder If this aight be an appropriate time 
to put on the record the status of these witnesses with 
^* regard to the vote by your Coaaittee to grant them 
^^ laaunlty. I want to aaice sure that the record Is clear 

^^ before we get knto the substantive detail of their 
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test iaony. 

HR. BELNICKt The Senate Coaalttee voted at 
Its business aeetlng on April 2* 1S87* to coapei 
testiaony fro* both of these witnesses* Hs. Napier and 
Hs. Corbin* and in connection therewith to apply to the 



^ court for use iaaunity. 



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Th« application Mat filed and notlct was given 
to tha Attorney General and to the Independent counsel* 
I believe* on April 3. He have received word fro* the 
Attorney General that the Attorney General mIII not ask 
for the additional 20 days. He have reason to believe 
that the Independent counsel mMI do llkeitlse* and It Is 
Senate counsel's intent to go forward then with the 
foraal application to the court this coaing Monday* 
April 13th. 

Now* I understand also* Gerry* that there Is 
an laaunity order covering both of these witnesses fro* 
Judge Robinson. 

HR. IREANORt Me were served with orders 
covaring both Hs. Mapier and Ms. Corbin on April the 
1st. Those orders were executed* I think* on March the 
31st by Chief Judge Robinson of the U.S. District Court 
In Washington. 

I Mouio siapiy lIKe to put on the record* In 
addition to that fact* ay understanding that* although 
the foraal orders sought pursuant to the vote of your 
Coaaittee have not been issued* that the Intent of the 
^ Coaalttee Is to extend to these discussions and to these 



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depositions today tho sa*« blanlttt lanunlty that wiil be 
' foraaily In place froa your Coaaittee In another four or 



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f iwe days. 

MR. BELNICKt Absolutely. 
BY NR. BELNICKt (Resuaing) 
Q Ms. Napiert I had aslted you before mo had that 
discussion Mftether you had run errands for Hr* Secord to 



' the Old Executive Office Building In Washington* O.C.t 

and I believe you ansuered yes. Aa I correctt 
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A Yes. 

Q Uould you describe those errands! 

A At tiaes I Mould tatte envelopes down there. I 
have tahcn the encoding aaohlnes« broken aachlnes* down 
there and received a new one to take its place. And at 
one tiae I took aoney down thcret and I took a Bible 
dOMn there. 

The "there" you've been referring to Is the 
Old Executive Office Building? 

A Yes. 

Q Old you see anybody in the Old Executive 
Cffice Building on those occasionsT 



^ A Whenever I took soaething down there* I gave 



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It to FaMH Hall. 

And Mho did you undarstand Fawn hall to be? 

A Sacratary to Ollla North. 

Q Whan did you aalta thasa trrands* during what 



yaar? 

A *86. 



Q Could you dascrlba for us tha occasion in 1986 
Mhan you dellvarad aonay to the Old Executive Office 
Bui Iding? 

A Bob Button was trying to get in touch with 
Bill Cooper* who was coaing to O.C.* and he wanted hi* 
to stop In NIaai and pick up docuaants or papers* and he 
could not get a hold of Bill Cooper. And fir. Secord was 
out of tOMn and I didn't have auch to do* so I 
volunteered to go down and pick up the papers. 

Bob said ha Mould have to aake a phone call. 
Ha aada his phone call* caae back* said It was okay for 
■a to pick It up* to aake ay reservations* and that he 
was going to aake another phone call. 
^ Hall* I aada ay reservations and he caae back* 

^ and at that tiaa ha told aa that I would be picking up 
^ S16»000 in cash froa a aan who worked for Southern Air 



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Transport* 
2 Q Al I right. 

^ A And Mh«n I picked It up to bring It back to 
* O.C. and to take It to Colonel North at the Old 
' Executive Office Building. 

Q Before we go any further* Mho was Bob Outton? 
^ A Bob Outton* his title Is staff director with 
^ Stanford Technology Trading Croup International. 
Q So he Morked In the saae group as yout 
« A Yes. 
^^ Q Mho Is Bill Coopert 

^^ A Bill Cooper is a pilot that Mas down in 
^^ Central Aaerlca. 

Q Do yau know by Mhoa he Mas eaployedt 
A I doa*t knoM Mho the eaployer Mas. 
^* Did nr. Outton tell you the naae of the aan 
^^ fro* Southern Air Transport that you Mere to see in 
^B southern Florida! 

^^ A He did* and I can't reaeaber the aan's naae. 
^ All I reaeaber is I can describe hia* and he said he Mas 
^^ the controller for Southern Air. 
^ Q Oo yau recall his naae being Bill Langdon? 



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A Not kt Mas not Bill Langdon. H« satd I alght 
■••t Bill Lansdont but that anothar gantlaaan would neat 

■a and It Mould not ba Bill. 

Q Old you fly to Hlaai? 

A Yes« I did. 

Oo yau recall Mhan this Mas? 

A It Mas August 26th. 

" Q 19867 
9 



A 1986. 

Q Tall us Mhat happened Mhan you went to NIaalt 
A I Bat the aan at the gate that we had arranged 
and he had on an SAT ID badge* fit the description* and 
he recognized ae by Mhat I mas Moarlng. Ue Ment to a 
lounge. He ga«e ae a Federal Express overnight 
envelope* like ar 8-1/2 by 11 size. And he opened It 
up* shOMOd ae the aoney. 

I did not count the aoney In the lounge 
because It Mas croMded. He Ment to the lounge. I Mcnt 
to the ladies roca and counted the aoney* and there was 

20 S16,000. 

21 Q In Mhat denoalnatlon bills? 

22 A It Mas all tMonties and under. 



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^ Uhat did you do after you counted th« aonoy? 
^ A I boarded the plane back to O.C.* to Dulles. 
^ Q Once you arrived at Dulles? 

* A I left ay oar there* I got In ay car and went 

^ dOMn to the Old Executive Office Building. I tient Into 

a 

the 17th Street entrance. There Mas a phone theret a 
house phone. 1 called Faun's extension and told her I 

^ Mas downstairs Mith a package that I thought 01 lie Mas 

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Malting for. 

Q What happened then? 

A I Malt a foM alnutes and she caae doMn and 
took the Boney. 

Old she say anything to you? I*a talking 
about FsMn Hall. Old she say anything to you Mhen she 
caae dOMn? 



A He exchanged a few Mords and she said 



16 

^^ soaething. It Mas either "Old you go to diaal and get 

^^ this?" or "Old you go dOMO there today?" 1 don't 

^® reaeabcr exactly Mhat It Mas* but that Mas the extent of 

^ our conversation. 

21 Q What did you do then? 

^ A I Mont to ay hoae* bcoause It Mas late In the 



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afternoon. 

Olo you report to Mr. Dutton that evoning? 

A No. I think I talked to hia the next day. I 
think he aight have called the office and asked ae about 
It* and I told h la I hafl delivered It. And he said 
"Thank you for going down there." 

Q Aside froa Mr. Outton and the people who ara 
In this rooa today* have you told anyone before about 
this delivery of aoney to Fawn Hall at the Executive 
Office Bulldins for Ollle North? 

A I told By husband once the Independent counsel 
had ta Iked to ae . 

Q Did yoti ever/talk to Hr. Secord about It? 



A Oh* yes* I did tell Hr. Secord about It. 

Q When Mas that? 

1* A It Mas after he returned* a few days after I 

^^ went detin there. 

''^ Q What did you say to hiat 

19 A I asked hia If he knoM I had gone down* and 
^ yes* he Mas aMare that I had gone dOMn. And I Just told 

^'' hIa about Mhat I had done. 



^ Q Old you tell hIa you had picked up cash and 



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d*llv*red kt to Fawn Hall for Colonel North? 
A Y«<. 

Q Mhat did he sayl 

A He Mas concerned I had gotten Involved in It. 

Q Oo you recall what he said* what he said along 
those I inesT 

A I thInK he was a little upset that I had been 
ashed to do It. But I really wasn*t asKed. I had 
volunteeredt not knowing what I was going to do. 

He was a little upset that Bob had allowed ae 
to do It and was concerned that I had been Involved In 
It. That was the only thing he expressed to ae. 

Q Old he tell you what the cash was for* Mr. 
Secord? 

A 

Q 



No* he did not. 

Old Mr. Outton tell you what the cash was 



for? 



A No* he did not. 

Q Has anyone to this day told you what the cash 

was for that you were asked to and did deliver to Fawn 
hall? 

A No. 



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Q Do you hav* any understanding of what It was 
for? 

A No* I 00 not. 

Did you ever discuss this cash dellvtry with 
Mr. Hakia? 

A Not I don't bclieva I did. 

Q Ail right. Nowt aslda froa tha pcopla Ma*va 
■antlonad — your husband* laMyer* and tha others In 
this rooa — hava you discussad this cash dallvcry with 
anyone else? 

A No. 

MR. IREANORt Other than the Independent 
counse I 3 



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BY MR. BELNICKt (Resuaing) 
Q Including the Independent counsel. 
A No. 

Q Nok* there were other occasions In 1986 when 
you aade deliveries or picked things up at the Old 
Executive Office Building* correct? 
A Correct. 

^ Q Mas there ever any other occasion when to your 

^ knowledge you delivered aoney to that building? 



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A Mo. 

Q Mas there ever any occasion Mhen to your 

knoMlooge you picked up aoneyf including cheeks* 

travelers checks* or cash* fro* Fawn Hall at that 



" bulldlnfi? 

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A No. 

^ Q Was there any other occasion apart froa the 
^ occasion you*v« Just described In August 1986 Mhen you 



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worked for the United States governaent? 



delivered what ycu knew to be aoney to anybody Mho 
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" A No. 
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Q Let se shOM you soae travel records that you 
brought Mith you today and ask you If they pertain to 
the trip you have Just described. Let ae shOM you tMo 
docuaentst August 29 — these are the saae. Let's go 
off the record a second. 

lOlscusslon off the record. I 

HR. BELNICKt Back on the record. 



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ns. Napier* let ae hand you the docuaent we've 



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^ noM aarked as Napier Exhibit 1. Can you describe what 

21 that Isl 

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(Th« docuaant reftrrad to 
Mas aarkcd Napl«r Oaposltlon 
Exhibit No. 1 for 
Idant If Icatlon. ) 
A This Is a copy of tha Itlnarary for tha flight 
dOMh to niaal on Hay 26th of 1986. 
And Naplar Exhibit 2] 

(The docuaant rafarrad to 
Mas aarkad Naplar Daposltlon 
Exhibit No. 2 for 
Idantif Icatlon.) 
A This Is a copy of the itinerary for tha return 
trip* froa Nla«l to Washington on August 26tht 1986. 

You produced both of these docuaents here this 
Born Ingt 

A Right* yes. 

Q I Manttd to ask you* referring again to the 
SAT representative whoa you aet* do you knoM Mhat his 
naae Mas7 

^ A I did knoM his naae. I had It Mritten doMn on 
^^ one of ay pads that I don't have any aore. I don*t know 
^ whether I Mould recognize his naae If I saw a list of 



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^ SAT caployacs or not* 

^ Q Hod yo(t soon Ma boforo that occasion? 

^ A No. 

Q Havo you ovor soon hi* againt 

A No. 

Q Rr . 81 II Coopor — 

MR. BALLENS Doos tho naao Robort Mason coao 
^ to alno? 

* THE UITNESSt Robort Hasont No. 

BY MR. BELNICKt CRosuaIng) 
Q Had you any dealings mIUi Bill Coopor boforo 
August 5t 19863 

A No* 1 nowor saw tho aan. I think I've 
answorod tho phono whon ho*s called once or twleo* 
Q Havo you ovor soon hIaT 
A No. 

Q Oo you knoM Mhat his business Mas with your 
coapany? 

A No* other than I know ho Mas a pilot working 
in Central Aaorlca. 

Q Hhoro In Central Aaorlca* did you knoM? 



^ A El Salvador* Nicaragua. 



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Mhtn h* calledt to Mho* did h« ask to spaakT 

Bob Outton. * 

!•■ sorry? 

To Bob Outton. 

HoM die you knoM Mr. Cooper nai a pilot and 
Mhara ht was werklngT Old Hr. Outton tall you that? 

Yis* he did. 

Is that all you knoM about Bill Coopar? 

Qthar than the plana crash. Ha nas tha ona 
that was killed in the plane crash down there. 

Oo you recall when that Mas? 

It Mas October or Noveaber. 

Old nr. Hasenfus ever call the office? 

He has called one tiae. 

And Mhen in relation to October 1S86 Mas 

He has called Mithin the past aonth. 

Ulthfn the past aonth? 

Yes. 

With MhOB did he ask to speak? 

Bob Outton. 

Mr. Outton is still coalng to Mork at STTCIt 



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A Yes. 

Q And so Is Mr. Sccord? 

A Yes. 

And th«y*v« bt«n ther* together the last aonth 
at various tiaasi 

A Yes* sure* 

Q While you and Ms* Corbin Mere there? 

A Yes. 

a When Mas the last tiae Hr. Hakia was In the 

office to your knoMledge? 

A I think aaybe October* Septeaber* October* 

Noweaber* around in that area. 



^* Q Of 19861 

^* A 1986, yes. 
15 



Q You're still eapioyed at STTCI? 
A Yes. 

Q NoM let's talk about the other errands you ran 
for nr. Secord to the Old Executive Office Building. 
You said there Mcre occasions Mhen you delivered 
envelopes. This Is the occasions other than on August 



^^ 1986 Mhen you delivered the cash. 



There nere other occasions Mhen you delivered 



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•nvelopest correct? 
A Yes. 

Q About how aany of those occasions Mart there 
during 1986? 

A A half a dozen to a dozen tiaes. 

Could you describe the envelopes that you 
del I vcred? 

A Host of the tlae* It was Just a letter sized 
plain Mhite envelope. 

Q Business size? 

A You knoHt like not the personal stationery 
sizet but the letter size* 

Q Who gave you the envelopes to deliver? 

A Host of the tiae* froa Hr. Secordv 
occasionally froa Bob Outton. 

Hok long In advance of the delivery did either 
fir. Dutton or Mr. Secord give you the envelope? 

A Post of the tiae It Mas Just to hand ae the 
envelope and Just tell ae to take It downtown. 



^ Q kai the envelope bulky? 



A No. 



22 Q What did It feel like It had inside of It? 



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^ A A letttr« paper* 

Q On each of those occasions whan you dallvarad 
^ such an envelopa* did you deliver It to Fawn HallT 
* A Yes. I think there Mas one tiae that a girl 

' by the naae of Barbara aet ae downstairs. 
Q Do you recall her last naae? 
A NO. 

Have you aver heard the naae Barbara Brownt 
A No. 

Q HoM Mould you arrange to aeet Fawn Hall or In 
the one case Barbara Brown or Barbara? 

A I would take ay car* I would call her before I 
leave the offlcet call her and say that I would be there 
In 20 alnutes. Soaatlaes Hr. Secord would tell ae to 
take his car* because he has a car phone* and I would 
call her whan I got within f-lve alnutes of the Executive 



^^ Office Bui Idlns. 

''^ And thtn* soaetiaes if I had to wait I would 

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call her froa downstairs and tell her I was down there. 

Q And then Fawn Hall would siaply take the 
enve lope? 

A Yes. 



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And on th« occasion Mhan Barbara took It* did 

^ she give you anything In return? 

3 

A I think I aay have picked up one of the 

encoding aachlaes froa her« 

^roB Barbara? 

A Froa Barbara. 

Q And an tha occasions uhon you delivered the 
Mhlte envelopes to Fawn Hallt did she give you 
anything? 

A There «as not always an exchange. There were 
tiaes that I was sent down there to pick up soaethlng* 
but not every fclse I ttent down there did I get soaethlng 
In return. 

Q Soaetiaes you did* soaetlaes you didn't? 

A Soaetlaes she would have soaethlng for ae and 
I would have soaethlng for her. 

Q Old Fawn Hall — on the occasions when Fawn 
Hall gave you soeethlng* was it always the saae thing? 

A No. 

Q Tell us what she gave you? 
21 A There were tiaes where I would get an envelope 
^ that was — they used tapes* code tapes for the encoding 



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■achlne* and th«y Mere Just In a hard plastic holder* 
and I could tall what those were fro* the bulk of the 
package and the feel of it* 

I have picked up Just a plain envelope before* 
and also an encoding •achlne* 

Q Aside froa the envelopes that you Knew had the 
encoding aaehlne tapes* could you tell what was in the 
other envelope or envelopes that you received froa Fawn 
Hall? 

A Ho. 

Q Has anyone to this day* anyone* ever told you 
what was In any of the envelopes that you delivered to 
the Old Executive Cfflce Building? 

A No. 

Q Has anyone ever told you to this day what was 
In any of the envelopes you received froa the Old 
Executive Office Building* apart froa those which had 
the encoding tapes? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever — have you discussed those 
deliveries with flH anyone other than your lawyer* the 
Independent counsel* your husband* the people here 



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today? 

A No. 



29 



Q Aside froa th« S16*000 dollvery Mhlch you 
doserlbodt Us* Naplor* noro you Involved tn any other 
larga cash transaction while you*ve been eaployed at 
STTCI7 

A Yes. 

Old that occur on or about March 26tht 19867 
A Yes. 

Q Could you describe for us nhat happened at 
that tlae? 

A Hr. Hakla was In the office and had ae call 
the bank to sec If a wire transfer had coae Into his 
personal account at First Aaerlcan. And It had* and he 
gave ae two checks to type out. He asked for one to be 
Bade out — both of thea to be aade out to casht one In 
^^ the aaount of S8«000 and one In the anount of S7»000. 
IB MR. BELNICKt Would you stop for a aoaent 

''^ while I ask the reporter to aark this as the next 
^ exhibit. 

21 (The docuaent referred to 

22 was aarked Napier Deposition 



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12 



13 



14 



15 



16 



18 



19 



20 



26 



Exhibit NO. 3 for 
Identification.) 
BY MR. BELNICKt (RcsuBing) 
Q Dots that docuBtnt contain photocoplas of th* 
tMo chocks to cash to uhich you havo Just testlflad? 
A Vet. 

Q Both datod March 26th* i986t 
A Y«S. 
Q Ono In tho aaount of S8«000» th« othar In tha 



10 

■ ■our 

A Yes. 



aaount of S7*0001 

11 



Q Could you turn to tha second page of the 

exhibit. Mould you describe what that Is7 

A It's ay signature where I endorsed the checks 

so that I could cash thee. 

And did you produce these two pages this 



^^ Borning? 



A Yest I did. 

Q Mr. Hakia asked you on March 26th to draw up 



these checks? 



2^ A Right. 

^ Q You did* and then what happened? 



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A He ashed ae to go to two different branches of 
First Aeerlcan and cash thei. 

Q That's the First Aaerlcan Bank of VIrglniat 

A Correct. 

UMoh branches? 

A I iieiit to the Vienna branch and Tysons 
Corner. 

Q And you cashed thc«T 

A And I cashed thea* and brought the aoney back 
to the office and gave it to hia* 

Q Did he leave the next dayT 

A He left that night or the next day on a trip. 

Oo you knoM whereT 

A I doa*t knoM for sure. I think It aight have 
been London or Geneva. 

Q All right. 

A It was an overseas trip. 

Q Did you — did Nr. Hakia tell you what he 
needed the cast* for on that day? 



^ A No* bo did not. 



Q Old you express any concern to hia about this 



^ transaction? 



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A Y«Sf b«caus« I was s«al-aMar* of a law that if 
you cashed a check over 910*000 you ware supposed to 
report It or fill out a fom. And he said that that 
didn't apply to this because each check Mas not over 
SXOtOOOt I had nothing to Morry about* 

Q Has anyone else in the office on the day that 
you cashed these checks and brought It back to Mr* 
XaklaT 

A Mr. Secord Mas there* Joan Mas there* and to 
the best of ay acaory Toa Clines and Rafael Quintero 
Mere both In tlie office that day. 

Were they present Mhen you handed Mr* Hakia 
the cash or discussed any part of the transaction with 
hia? 

A I don't believe they Mere right there In his 
office Mhen I gave the aoney back. I think they Mere 
soaewhere In the offices. 

Q Old you knoM Mho Toa Clines Mas? 

A Yes. 

Q Who was hat 

A He's a friend of Mr. Secord's. 

Q Old he call the office frequently? 



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^ A Yes. 

2 

Q Old ha COM* In frcqutntiyf 

' A tet. 

Q Oo you know what business he had with Mr. 
' Secord? 



6 

Mith hi*. 



A No« !•«• iievar been told what business he had 

7 



Q Old be ever ask you to place calls while he 

^ was In the offleet "he" being Hr. Toa Cllnes* 
^° C-l-l-n-e-s? 

^^ A Yes* ha has. 

12 

Q And where did he ask you to place calls? 

A To Portugal. 

Q To where? To anybody you can recall In 



13 



14 



15 



16 



17 



18 



19 



Portuga I? 



A His naae Is Jose Carnal I. 



Q 6-a-r ~ 



A J-o-s-e C-a-r-n-e-l-r 



Q In what city in Portugal? 



^ A That I don't know* because I Just use a 
^ country code. I *■ not even sure I used a city code. 
^ Q Is his naae on your roiodex in the office? 



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Carn«ll* I b«li«ve to. 
Do you still have that rolodax? 
Yes. 

MR. BELNICKt I request that mc get a copy of 
tha rolodex cards fros ns. Napier* 
RR. IREANORI Yes. 
MR. BELNICKt Okay. 
BY HR. BELNICKt (Resuaing) 
Did Rr. Cllnes ewer ask you to call anyone 



1 


A 


2 


Q 


3 


A 


4 




5 


tha ro 


6 




7 




8 




9 


Q 


10 


else? 


11 


A 


12 


nould 


13 


Q 


14 


A 


15 


Q 


16 


A 


17 


Q 


18 


A 


19 


Q 



Oh* on occasion he*s been In the office* he 
nould ask ae to call Rafael. 

Qu lntcro7 

Quintero. 

Uhera did you reach Mr. Quinterot 

In Hiaal. 

Anyplace else? 

No* I think that Mas It. 

Did nr. Quintero coae into the office froa 
^ tiaa to tlael 
2^ A Yes* he did. 
^ Q Hhoa did ha coae In to sea? 



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AH* Mould COB* In to s«« Bob Dutton or Hr. 
^ Socord. 

Do you knoM what Hr. Qulntoro*s business was? 



Q 

A No. 



Q Oo yau knoM Mhat tho nature of his dealings 
Mere Mith Mr. Secord or your coapany or Nr. DuttonT 

A Not I has never told. I assuaed he had 
soaething to do Mith the operations In Central Aaerlca. 

Q To raturn to the story you Mere telling us 
concerning the S19*000 transaction on Inarch 26tht 19e6t 
you ■entloned a Mire transfer of the SlSvOOO into Mr. 
Hakla's accountt Mhlch you oonflraedt correct? 

A Yes. 

Oo you knoM Mher* that Mired aoney caae froa? 



^S A I believe It caae fro* SMitzerland. 



31 



a And on Mhat do you base that? 

A Hell* that's Mhere aost of our aoney* Mhen Me 
got Mire transfers Int that's Mhere aost of It caae 
froa. And I 'a assuaing that caae — I don't have it to 
^ look back on right noM. the Mire transfer slip. But I'a 
2^ assuaing that's nhere It caae froa. 
22 Q Oo you knoM If that Mire transfer slip still 



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1 
2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



existsi 

A I thtnk it does. 

Q Mh«r* hould It be? 

A It would be in Nr. Hakle's personal records. 

Q Where are they? 

A There are soae in the office* 

Q At STTCI? 

A Yes. 

Q Where are the others? 

A He aay have It. It alght have been soaething 

I Bailee to hi* If he wasn't around the office* but 

probably It should bo in with his personal stuff there. 

Q was there a place you personally aalled things 
to Mr. Hak la at Mhen he wasn't at the office? 

A Yes. 

Where was that? 

A In his hoae in Los Catos* California. 

Q Oo you reaeaber the address? 

A I know i t ' s ^^^^^^^H . I don't reaeaber the 
nuaber* but I knew it'sl 

Q All right. Is it on your rolodex? 

A Yes. 




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33 



MR. KELNICKt Would you «arK this next 
docu««nt as hap i or 4* 

(The docuaent referred to 
Mas aarked Napier Deposition 
Eahlbit No. 4 for 
Identification.) 
BY HR. BELNICKt (Resuaing) 
Q Shirleyt let ae hand you the docuaent that's 
noM been aarked as Napier Exhibit 4. Could you describe 
Mhat It Is? 

A This Is uhat I had written up about the two 
cash transactions that I did* 

Q The 119*000 and the S16*000 transactions that 
you testified about today* correct? 
A Correct. 

^' Q About Mhan did you prepare this docuaent? 
A It's been about three neeks ago. 
Is that your signature at the bottoa? 
A Yes* It Is. 

And did you put that signature on at ay 
request earlier today? 
22 A Yes* I did. 



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11 



16 



17 



34 



And datad It today? 

A Yei* I did. 

Q But It was prepared about three weeks ago? 

A Yes. 

^ Q Qkay. At whose — was It at soaeone's request 

^ that you prepared this? 

A No. I did this to help ny attorney with some 

o 

things that we had gone over. 

a 

Q Aside fro* your attorney* Independent counsel 
^° and ust have you showMl this docuaent* Napier Exhibit 4* 
to anyone else? 



« A NO. 

^^ Q Have you over shown It to Nr. Secord? 

1* A NO. 

15 



Q Have you told Mr. Secord that you were 
preparing such a docuaent? 
A No. 



How about Mr. Hakia or Hr. Outton? 



18 

19 A NO. 

20 Q Now let's talk for a aoaent about 

21 Switzerland. Vou said that aost of the wire transfers 

22 caae fro* Switzerland. Oo you recall the naae of any 



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21 



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^ banks or accouats in SMitzarland froa which tha Mira 
^ transfars orlgtnatad? 
' A CSF. 

a CSFt t Ika "Frank"* 

A Ya*. 

Q Any al sat 

A I think Ma had soaa froa Cradit Suisse. That 
Mas It. 



' Q Did you knoM what CSF Has? 

^® A I assuBS It was a banking institution 
11 



Q Apart froa that* did you hava any Inforaatlon 
about It? 

A No. 

Q Old you knoM If It had any ralationship to 
your coapany or Ifr. Secord or Hr. hakia? 

A No* othar than tha aonay Just coaing through 
thara. 

Q Oo you rocall hoM auch aonay In total caaa In 
froa CSF during 1966? 



^ A Not total I don*t. I can raaaabar soaa of tha 



Mire transfars* but not a total of thea. 



^ Q What asounts do you racall coaing In? 



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^ A On* thing that Mas a total was that m« had a 
^ SZOOvOOG latter of credit with CSF* and mo received 
SllOtOOO of that overt I believet *e5 and *a6. 

Q And Mhcre was that deposited* do you knoM? 
A To First Aaerican Bank. 
To Mhose account? 
A The STTCI. 
^ Do you recall any other Mire transfer aaounts 
' fro* CSF? 

A Me received S70»000 that caae through CSF* and 
it Mas referenced "Udall*" 
When Mas that? 

A I believe that Mas In late suaaer* spring of 
*86. 

Q And Mhat did you do Mith that? 
A Hall* that autoaat leal ly* on a wire transfer* 
deposits Into your account* 

Q The saae account at First? 
A Yes. 
^ Q Do you recall any others? 

21 A There Mas one in the aaount of 58*000 and I 

22 believe 700 dollars* that was in the spring or early 



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1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 

^2 KITCO. 

Q Do you knoM what KITCO Masf 

A Th« snly thing I was told about KITCO is that 
rapr«s«nt«d S90*000 consulting f«« for *8$ and S90«000 
consulting f«a for *86. 

Q BoyoMd that* you don't knoM Mhat KITCO Is or 
Has? 

A No. 

Q Any othor mItc transfars froa CSF« do you 



suaaor of *86* 

Q Also M«nt Into tha First Aaarlcan account? 

A Yes* ccrract. 

Has thtra a rafaranee on that? 

A I ballavo It Mas rofarenced "AOC." 

Q Okay. 

A Ha ractlvad — I balleva this was In tha fall 
of '85* but possibly tha fall of '86* !'■ not sura* It 
Mas S9S*979 fro KITCO* K-I-T-C-Q. 

Q Hhara Mas that? 

A That caaa through CSF* and It Mas rafaranced 



racallt 



^ A I ballc«a Ma recalvad ona froa Laka 



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^ Resources. I don't reaeaber the aaount and I *■ not 

^ absolutely positive It was fro« Lake* but that's In ay 

^ aind for soae reason. 

* Q Is there a date In your alnd attached to the 

^ Lake Resources transfer* approxlaately when? 

^ A ko. 

^ Q What was ADC7 
8 

' Corporation. 

^^ Q Did that coapany to your knoMledge have any 
11 



A I believe It stood for Ar-F«M Developaent 



dealings Mith Sccord or STTCIT 
^^ A The only one I reaeaber talking about that 

^^ would have been l*r. Haklat and again It Mas for 

^* consulting. 

1^ Q Apart froa the one ADC transfer you've 

^^ described* do you recall any others? 
17 A I don't recall any offhand. 

IB Q Okay. Wlllard Zucker* do you know that naae? 
1^ A Yes* I do. 
^ Uhe do you know hia to be? 
21 A Associated with CSF. 
^ Q And how do you know that? 



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^ A Because I sent telexes to hi* at CSF* I've 

^ placed calls to hia at CSF for* I believe* Mr. Hakln to 

^ speak to hia. 

* Q Froa Mlioa Mere the telexes that you sent Mr. 
^ Zucker* Hakia or Secord or both? 

* A Usually Hr. Hakla. 

' Q Do you recall the telexes concernedt 

/\ 

* A Host of thea Mere In reference to collecting 
^ Boneys or having scaething to do Mitti aoney* 

''° Q Asking Mr. Zucker to collect aoney? 

It A tos* At soa* point they had an arrangeaent 

'^ that CSF Mould collect funds froa people that mo Mere 

^' doing consulting for* and they uould take like a one 

^* percent coaalsslon froa Mhatevcr they collected. 

15 Q Anything olse you recall about those telexes? 

« A Ho. Host of thea* It uas Just Manting to fcnoM 

^^ Mhere the aoney Mas froa — say like* you knoM* that 

^* $10*000 froa Udall* It Mas Just a follou-up telex to see 

^' Mhere the aoney Mas at that point* Mhen mo could expect 

20 It. 

21 Q Old you knoM If Hr. Udall had any connection 

22 Mith Hr. Secord or your coapany? 



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'' A Other than having stationary printad at ona 

^ tla«* that's all. 

^ Who ha<l tha stationary requastad? 

* A It Mas althar at Mr. Hahl**s or Hr. Sacord*s 

^ raquast that Me had stationary printad. 

' Q Thay asKad you to hava stationary printad for 

^ Udall? 

^ A Actual lyt I ballava they asked Joan to do tha 

' Udall. 

Q The stationery Mas kept In your offices? 

A Yes. 

Q Old you ever use It? 

A No. 

Q Okay* Do you know the naaa Prince Bandarf 

A Yes. 

And who's he? 

'*7 A He's the aabassador of Saudi Arabia. 

^B Q And hOM do you knoM that naae? 

IB A Hr. Secord has talked about hia on occasion as 

^ being a personal friend. 

2'* Q Old Mr. Seoord ever ask you to aaka calls to 



^ Prince Bandar? 



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A I b«lt«v« I plac«d on* call to th« •■bassy« 

Do y«u recall Mh«n that mm%1 

A I think that was In the first yaar that I 

Morkad for hla> 

^ Q During 1S8 — 

* A Probably *84. 

^ Q Mas that tha saaa yaar Mhan you got Mr. Sacord 

^ a visa to Saudi Arabia? 




A Yas. 



Q 



And did you gat Hr* Hakia a visa to Saudi 



''^ Arabia In 19e4« do you racallt 

^2 A 1 bolicv* I did. 

■•^ Q Did Princ* Bandar avar coaa Into your — has 

■"* ha avar coaa Into your office that you're awaref 

15 A No. 

16 Q But Hr. Secord has been to the enbassy? 

17 A I don*t knoM that for a fact. 

18 Q Okay. Did Nr. Secord ever tell you that ha 
''^ had been to the tabassy? 

20 A I think the only thing he's ever said Is that 

21 he net ulth Bandar. Where they aet 1 don't know. 

22 Q oo yeu know If Hr. Secord was invited to the 



ALORSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC 
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^ ««bassy In ecnnactlon with King Fahd*s visit to the 
^ Unlt«d States In lS85t 
^ A Ysst he was. 

* Q To a reception? 

' A I eon*t knoM Mhether he went to the 

^ reception, ^e Mcnt to the dinner at the J«li* Harriott. 

' He Mas invited to that. 

Q You ■entloned before delivering a Bible to the 
^ Old Executive Office Building. 

A Yes* 

Q When was that? 

A That Has* I believe* in Septeaber or October 
of *86. 

Q Would you describe for us hoM that happenedt 

A nr. Hakia was in town* and he and Mr. Secord 
had been out of the office* returned* had the Bible. 
They uere trying to find an appropriate inscription for 
^^ the Bible* and then he asked ae to deliver it to the Old 
^9 Executive Office Building* to give It to Fawn. 

20 Q To Fawn Mall? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Old Nr. HakIa ask you If you knew a suitable 



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Inscr Ipt Ion? 



2 A Y«st h« did. 

^ Mhat did you t«ll his? 

* A I told hia no* I didn't. 



S 



Q Old he tall you tho purposo* what tha BIbIa 



Max going to be used fort Mho It Mas going to be given 

' to? 

^ A That It Mas going to Iranian friends. 

' Q Okay. And Mhat did you do Mith It? 
'*" A I put the Bible In a broMn envelope and sealed 

^^ it up* Mrite FaMn's naae on the front* and "NSC*" took 

^^ It dOMn to the Old Executive Office Building* and Ment 

^3 in and left It In tha sail rooa. And then I called FaMn 

^* and told her that It uas doun there. 
15 Q And did you Malt for her to pick it up? 
1* A Mo. 

17 Q NoM* have you described for us now all the 

^^ occasions when you either delivered or picked up 

^^ soaething at tHe Old Executive Office Building? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Did you ever deliver anything to FaMn Hall 

22 anyMhera other than the Old Executive Office Building? 



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A No. 

Q Evtr racciv* anything froa Fawn Hall or froa 
^ Barbara anyMhare othor than at the Old Exacutlva Office 
* Bulldingi 



A No. 



* Q Hon about deliveries to Barbara other than at 
^ the Old Executive Office Buildingi Any? 



^ A No. 

9 



Q Oo you know the naae Olastead? 
A Yes. 



Q Who It he? 



^^ A He*s — he caae to our office a fet* tiaest and 

^^ one of the trips I aade Mith Hr. Secord to Hlaalt nr. 

^* Olastead was present at the aeeting. I'a not sure Mhat 

^^ his function Is or Mhat coapany. 

^* He had Lake Resources stationery eade upt I 

''^ believe in Hay of *86. And I went to pick that up* and 

''^ he Mas Malting at the office for that stationary* and he 

^' took five or six sheets. 

20 Q uhst*s his first naae? 

21 A Bob or Bill. I don't knoM Mhloh Is correct* 

22 or even if one is correct. 



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^ Q Could you doscribo hia physically? 

^ A He's tall« thin. He wore glasses that were 

3 tinted. 

* Q Color of hit hair? 

' A Kind of a sandy brown. He had a Moustache. 

' That's about it. 

^ Q Hok old Mas he? 

■ A Fort»-l$h. 

* Hhan's tho last tlaa you saii hlaf 

^0 A I think the last tlao I saw Mm was tihen he 

^^ Mas Malting for that stationery. 

''^ Q Mhleh Has? 

^3 A Back In Hay of '86. 

14 Q Qo yeu know whether he had sight In only one 



15 



eye? 



16 A 1 was told that he did not have sight In one 

17 .,e. 

18 Q oo you know whether he had a glass eye? 

19 A I was rever told that. I was Just told he was 
^ b I Ind In one eye. 

21 Q Mho told you that? 

22 A I believe It was Bob Outton. 



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^ Q Hoh aany tiacs was Mr* Olastaad In your 

^ offices? 

^ A I only raaaabar saaing hi* thara tuo tiaas. 

^ And who did he aeet with on those occasions? 

^ A I ballava It Mas Hr. Sacord. 

' Q On both occasions? 

' A Yes. 

^ Q And Mas It on tha second occasion tthen ha took 

tha stationery fro* you? 

^° A Yas* I ballava It Mas. 

^^ Q Do yau know what his business Mas? 

^^ A No* I eon't. 

^^ Q And againt he Mas In Mlaai on one of the trips 

^* that you pade Mith Hr. Secord? 



^S A In April of '86. 

^' Q Do you knoM his addresst Mr. Olastead? 

17 



A No. Ha told ae once. I took hia to the 
airport. He said he lived in Maryland. 

Q Anything aora specific than that? 

A Soaepiace that it rounded ilka it Mas a May 

froa the city« because they said soaething about the 



^ lots Mere fairly big and he had a garden* and talked 



ALOEUOH REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
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^ about cither had a dog or nould I Ik* to gat a dog* but 

^ he travels a loti you knoM. 

3 Q He'd like to get rid of a dog7 

* A That «as about It. I think Bob Outton said 
^ that he Mas an ea-Rarlne. 

* Q Old tie or fir. Outton tell you whether Mr* 

^ OlBStead had served with Colonel North In the allltary? 

* A Not that Mas never aentloned. 

' Q You took Hr. Olastead to the airport. Do you 

^^ knoM Mhere he was goingt 
1^ A No. 
12 Q 010 you ever place calls to hia* telephone 



call St 

A No< 



19 Q la he on your rolodex? 

IS A I don't believe he Is. 

17 Q You said that one of the things you have done 

18 on your Job Is to travel -Ith Hr. Secord, correct? 

19 A Correct. 

20 Have you also aade up a list of the trips -Ith 

21 Hr. Secord or or his behalf that you recall? 

22 A Yes. 



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^ HR. BELNICKt Would you aark this as the next 

^ Exhibit* Napier 5. 

^ (The doouatnt referred to 

* Mas aarked Napier Deposition 
' Exhibit No. 9 for 

* Identification.) 
' BY HR. BELNICKt (Resualng) 

^ a Shirley* shoMing you this docuaent now that's 
^ been aarked as Napier Exhibit S« did you prepare this 
docuaent? 

A Yes* I did. 

Q Is It a reconstruction of the trips you recall 
Baking as an STT6I eaployeet 
A Yes. 

And ycu signed it at ay request and put the 
^^ date on It earlier today) 
Yes* I did. 

Mhen did you prepare Napier Exhibit 57 
About three neeks ago. 

At the saae tiae you prepared Exhibit 47 
Yes. 
far the saae purpose? 



17 


A 


18 


Q 


19 


A 


20 


Q 


21 


A 


22 


Q 



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^ A Yet. 

^ If H« could Just go through th« trips* th* 

^ first one you ha«e listed on Napier Exhibit 5 Is owor 

* March lath to 16th* 1986* and would you doscrlbo that 
' trlpl 

* A I accoapanlod Mr* Socord to London to attond a 
^ aaatlng Mith Mr. Khalld Rashood. 

* Q And Mho Is Mr. Khalld Rashoed? 

' A H«*s a Saudi Arabian buslnossaan. 

^^ Q Had you saan his baforoT 

11 A No* that Mas tha first tiae I had aet hia. 

12 Q Old he ever call tha office? 

13 A Yes. 

1< Q Freqaently? 

1S A Mot real frequently* no. 

1« Q When he called* he askad to speak to Mr. 

1^ Secord on those occasions? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q 010 you place calls to hla for Mr. Secord? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q uoultf you go back to the aeeting then In 

22 London and contlnuat 



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11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 



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' A We got there* X believe on Thursday. He had a 

^ aeetlng with hia on Thursday afternoon that I did not 

^ attend* Me aet tilth h la later In the evening. I was to 

* go along and te take notes and to hopefully draM a draft 

^ or Mrlte up a draft of an agreeaent that Mr. Secord 

' Manted Mith l>r» Ratheed. 

Q And Mhat happened? 
' A hell* they never caae to any f Ira agreeaent on 

® writing this agreeaent. It Mas Ilka a consultancy 
10 



agreeaent. 

Q Oo you recall any aore specifies about the 
agreeaent? 

A It Mas soaething to the effect that* If you 
wanted to do baslness in Saudi Arabia governaent 
contracts* t^at you needed a Saudi eitizan that had a 
degree In whatever field you Mere trying te get into* 
Hhether it was electronics* aerospace. 

Khalld Rasheed has a degree in aerospace 
engineering* and so the plan was that he would know 
what's trying to coae into the country and we could have 
a consultancy grcup that could supply -~> If they wanted 



^ to build airplanes* we could have engineers who could 



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^ t«ll the* hoM aany airplanes and how to bulle thea. 

2 Q Hr. Sacord and Hr. Rasheed aat togathar 

^ privately during the London trip? 

* A Yes* thay did. 

' Old you attend those aeetings? 

* A No* I eld not. 

' Did nr. Sacord tell you Mhat was discussed at 

^ those Bcetingat 

^ A No* lie did not. 

^ Q Old anyone else tell you7 

11 A No* they did not. 

12 Old Br. Secord aeet -Ith anyone else during 
^^ this March *e6 London trlp> 

14 ^ tes* he aet privately with David halker. 

15 Q Old you knoM who David Walker was? 

1« A No. 

17 Q oo you knoM who he Is now? 

18 A I have seen hia and he has been to our 

19 office. 

20 Q Sine* the London tripf 

21 A tes. 

22 Q Mho do you understand hla to bet 



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^ A Hr. Stcord had told a* that he was the English 
^ version of Ilk* our Delta Force* the SASI a retired SAS 
^ officer. 

* Old Nr. Secord ewer tell you what business he 
^ had Mith Oavid Malkerf 

• A No. 

Anyone else tell you thatt 
" A Mo. 

^ Q Hon aany tiaes has he been to STTGI? 
^^ A I believe he's been there two tIaes. 
^^ Q Since nareh 19867 

A tes. 

What's the next occasion that you recall 

Bailing a trip tor Hr. Secordt 

A I itent to niaai Mith Mr. Secord In April of 

•86. 

That's the second trip listed on Exhibit 57 

^B A The 29th and aoth. 

IB What Mas that trip all about7 

^ A Me act Mith a representative of the Jaaaican 

governaent concerning radio equipaent that they wanted 



22 



to buy. Hr. Olastead Mas theret Hr. Secordt ayselft and 



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'' this Man fro* th« Jaaalcan gowerna«nt. Hr. Sacord* I 

^ asked hia If ha «anted a* to take notes ano he said* no* 

^ Just listen carefully* then Mrlte It up after I left the 

* aeeting. 

^ He also said at soae point two gentleaen fro* 

' Motorola Mould be Joining the aeeting. So I was there 

^ about 20 or 29 ainutes before the tMO aen froa Motorola 

' caae. And nhen they caae In* Mr. Secord asked ae to 

^ return to hashington. 

10 Q And you flea back7 

11 A Yet. 

12 Q Qid you Mrlte up the aeeting as you recalled 

1^ it on the planat 

14 A Yast I did. 

15 Q Typed It up ahen you got to the office? 

1* A Yei. 

17 Q ci«a It to Mr. Secord ahen he returned? 

« A Yea. 

19 Q Have you ever seen It since then? 

20 A No. 

21 Do yau know ahere that wrlteup is noa? 

22 A No. 



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^ Q All right. Do you know If Nr. Olastoad was an 

^ attorney? 

^ A No* 1 (>on*t. 

* Q Th« next trip you hava listed on Exhibit 5 was 

^ August 26th« 1986* trip when you went to NIaal and 

® picked up the S16»C00 In cash? 

^ A Correct. 

^ Q Mas anybody with you on that trip? 

" A Mo. 
10 



11 



12 



The llnal trip Is Septeaber 23 to 26th» 1986* 
6ene«ay correct? 

A Correct. 



^3 Q Mould you describe that? 

^^ A Mr. Socord Mas already there. 

?^ Q In Geneva? 

^* A In Ceneva. 

^' And be called. One of the purposes of the 

^^ trip Mas to aeet Mith Khalid Rasheed again. They Mere 

^^ going to Italy tc aeet Mith another coapany* Brinaddl* 

^ Mhlch aanufactures trash Incinerators. 

21 Hr. Rasheed had introduced Nr. Secord to the 

^ Brinaddl faally. He Here trying to get an agreenent to 



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^ bacoa* the U.S. rtp for these treih Incinerators. So 

Hr. Secord had asked ae — he forgot to take the 
^ stationery for the proposal and the STTCI brochures* af 
* he asked ae to bring those to hla. 

Q He asked you to coae to Ceneva Just to bring 
brcchurest 

A Yes. 

Q Old he ask you to bring anything elset 



' A No« he didn't. 

^^ Q Statlerery? 

It 



A Just the stationery and brochures. 

Q And you delivered it to hIaT 

A Yes* I did. 

Q Any other business take place there? 

A No. By the tiae I got there* Khalid Rasheed 
ad called Ma and cancelled the trip. He was having 
^^ oral surgery. And Hr. Secord left the next day. 

Q How asny tiaes have you aet Oliver North? 

A On three occasions. 

Q Would you describe the first of those? 

A The first tIae Mas a Saturday In Scpteaber of 
^ *86t around the aiddle of the aonth* and there was a 



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^ ■••ting at STTCI's offlcs. 

^ Q M*r* you askod ip^elflcally to coa^ In on 

^ Saturday to holp with that ■••ting? 

* A Yait I Has* 

' Who Mas at th« ■••tlngt 

* A Olll* Mortht Hr. Sccordt Mr. Hakla* Saa 
^ Q*Nalil» thr«^ Iranians* and that Mas It. 

* Q Had you sa«n Hr. O'Neill b«for«7 
' A Y«s* I had. 

Q HOM aany tlaas had h^ b«^n to your offico? 
A I think h« had only b««n th«r« on* tiao 
before* aaybt Iho tla«s. 

Q Had ha calUd in? 
^* A If ha old* I did not ansMor the calls. 

^S Had you placed calls to Saa O'Nolil for Hr. 
S^cord or Mr. Makla? 
A No. 

Q Do y«u knoM for Mhoa ha Morkodt 
A No. 

Q Old b« at any point carry a buslnass card 
saying that ha worked for Stanford Tachnologyt 

A H* had* at hr. Hakla's request* business cards 



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■ade up for hi* for Stanford Tochnology. 



Uhtn Mas thati 



A I ballew* that Mas in early tuaaar of *86. 

^ Q Could you daserlba Mhat Mr. O'Naill lookod 
' lllia? 

A Ha Mas tallf fairly large fraaedt probably 90 

to 55* Mora slassas* I btlicva he had a aoustache* 
greying hair. 

a 

Q Do you knoM if that Mas his real naaet Saa 
10 



Q'Neillf or Mhather It Mas a pseudonya or codenaael 



not< 



A I don't knoM Mhether It Mas his real naae or 



There Mere three Iranians there? 



A Yes. 

^' Q Old anyone tell you their naaes? 

^* A One's naae Mas Chang Izt C-h-a-n-g 1-2. I 

^^ don't knoM if that Mas his first or last naae. 

^^ MR. klHANt Or real naae. 

19 THE UITNESSt There Mas another gentleaan 

^ there* Mhose naae Mas Hr. Oarvlsht and the third 

^ gentleaan I Mas not Introduced to. 

22 BY HR. BELNlCKt (Resuaing) 



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^ Q M«r« the thra* Iranians — • hoM old would you 



2 



say? 



A Tha tMO* Chang Iz and Hr. Oarvlsh* wara 40 to 
* 45. 

' Q And tha thIrdT 
^ A Vcungt ald-twantias* lata twantlas* 

Hon long did tha aaatlng contlnua aaong those 
^ paople on that Saturday) 

Thay caaa In batwaan 9t00 and lOtOO on 
Saturday aornlngf and I laft tha offica at 8tao and thay 
Mare still there* 8t30 at night. 

Old you hear any of tha discusslont 

What I heard mss In a foreign language. 

Nothing In Engllsht 

No. 

You Moren't asked to type anything at that 

I Mas asked to aake a copy of a paper. 

Do yau recall Mhat that paper Mas7 

No* X don't. It Mas Just a single sheet. 

Handwritten? Typed? 

No* It Mas acre like a for** not Ilka a letter 



9 


A 


10 


Saturday 




Mere sti 









A 









A 









aeet ing? 




A 




Q 


20 


A 


21 





22 


A 



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but Ilk* a bbslnasi fori of so«« kind. 

Q You don't reaoabor what Mas on Itt 
' * No. 

Q Old you Itavo before the aeetlng endedt 



^ A Yes* I did. 



Q What tiao did you leaveT 

A About 8t30 that night. 

Q Do yau reaeaber when this mssT 



^ A I think It Mas about aid-Septeabcr . 

Q When Mas the next occasion you ■a't Oliver 
11 



North? 

A It Mas another Saturday* In probably October. 

Q Oft 

A *86. Again It Mas at the office. I Mas 
Marking on a Saturday. I think I Mas In there doing 
soae personal typing. I knoM Mr. Secord Has there. I 
Mas on ay May to pick up soae lunch* and 01 lie North 
pulled Into the parking lot. 
19 I askeo hia If he Msnted a sandMich and took 

* the lunch bacif upstairs* and stayed a fOM alnutes after 

21 that. 

22 Q Has Hr. North still aeetlng Mith Nr. Secord 



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^ Mhen you left? 



A Yes. 



^ Q 014 you hoar any of that discussion? 

* A No. 

5 



Q Whan Mas tha third occasion that you saw or 
' aat Oliver North? 

' A It was In Deceaber of '86. 
' Before Chrlstaas? 
^ A Yes* before Chrlstaas. 

Q Would you describe what happened on that 
occas Ion? 

A Mr* Secord had a rooa at the Eabassy Suites 
and called ard asked ae to bring soae papers over froa 
the office* I took thea over there* and when I arrived 
01 1 le North aas there. 
Q Anyone else? 
^^ A Brilndan Sullivan and Tea Creen. 
^' Q ^Id you knoM Toa Green before you saw hia In 
^^ the Eabassy Suite? 
» A Yes* 

^ Q And Mho did you knoM hia to be? 
^ A Kr* Secord's attorney* 



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What papers did nr. Secord ~ let ae stop that 
for a second* 

The Eabassy Suite Is a hotell 

A Yet. 

Q Uhera Is It located? 

A It's in Tysons Corner on 7* Leesburg Pike. 

Q In VIrglnlaT 
° A In Virginia. 
^ Q About bOH far fro* STTGI's offices? 

A Lets than a aiie. 

What papers did Hr. Secord ask you to bring to 
his rooB at the Eabassy Suite? 

A He had a couple of boxes In our storage area 
that Mere records* telephone records* telex records* 
copies of telexes* travel receipts. I think that covers 
It. Copies of Invoices. He asked ae to bring those 
over. 

Q He asked you to bring those boxes over? 

A Yes. 



20 Q Had thote boxes with records been asseabled 



shortly before trat day In Oeceaber? 



22 A Part of it. Part of thea had been there. 



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Part of thea M«re old records that our accountants were 
working with for the previous year* So they worKed out 
of those boxes to docuaent travel and expensest and mo 
had gone through and put soae telexes and taken soae 
stuff out of ay office* receipts for the current year* 
and put thea in that roaa« because there was a sore 

secure lock en that door. 

a 

Q Vou liaa done that shortly before this day In 

Oeoeaber IS8£ when you went to the hotel* correct? 

A Yes. 

Q About hOM Buch before? 

A The first part of Oeceaber we did that. 

Has that the saae day you participated in 

shreddlns docuaerts at STTCI? 

A That I took thee over? 

No* no. That you asseabled that box with the 

docuaents. 

A Part of It. 

13 Q We'll coae back to that in a aoaent. Let's go 

^ to the day that you delivered the docuaents to the 

2^ hotel. 

^ fir. Secord asked you to bring the box over. 



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1 

2 

3 

4 

S 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

IS 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 



63 



Hera th*r* tuo boxas? 

A Thtr* ktr* two boxes. 

Q Vou brought tbaa over? 

A Yes. 

And sak Hr. Secord* Mr. Northt fir. Creen* and 
Mr. Sullivan In the roo«« correct? 

A Yes. 

You Mara Introduced to Hr. Sullivan? 

A Yes* I Mas. 

Q Had you aat hia before? 

A No. 

Q Hera you told who he Mas? 

A Yes. 

Q Who Mere you told that ha Mas? 

A That he was Ollle North's attorney. 

Q kiho told you that? 

A whoever Introduced us« and I don't raaeabcr 
Mhathar it Mas fir. North or Hr. Secordt one of the two. 

Q You delivered the boxes? 

A Yes. I took one upstairs with ae. Then fir. 
Secord asicad ae to put thea in the trunk of his car* so 
I took It back downstairs. Ho gave ae his kayst I put 



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thaa in th« trunk of his car« than took the keys back 
upsta ir !• 

Q Ano gave thes to Hr* Secord? 

A 1o dr. Steord* 

Q And left? 

* A And left. 

7 



Q What kind of car did Mr. Secord have? 

A It Mas an *84 Cadillac* dark blue* the long 
one* Sedan de VI lie* 

Q He sti II drives that? 

A Yes* he does* 

Q Old you ever set those boxes of docuaents 
back? 

A Yes. 

Q Uhen? 

A I believe It Mas March of this year. 

^^ Q Last aonth? 

« A Yes. 

^^ Apprev laately Mhen In Harch? 

^ A I don't reaeaber. I Just one aorning went In 

21 and one of the boxes was there. 

22 Q What about the other one? 



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A Th« other one I was told waa brougtit back 
^ before the Independent counsel caee In and took It back 
^ out again. 

Q When did the independent counsel take the 
' botes? 

^ A It Mas tMO weeks ago yettordayt I think. I 

7 

a 

9 
10 

^^ Q Was that the last occasion that you saw Mr 

^^ North* that day In Oeceaber at the hotel? 



don't knoM. 

Q Mere copies — did you sake copies of what the 
Independent counsel took? 

A No. 



13 



14 



15 



A Yts. 

Q Has he called your office since then to your 



knowledge? 



^^ A Not to ay knowledge. 

17 Q H,g nr. Secord or Mr. Hakia or Nr. Outton 

IB asked you to sake any calls to Mr. North since then? 



19 



A No. 



^ Q Has he asked you to aake any cal Is to Brendan 
2^ Sullivan since then? 
22 A No. 



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Have you taken any calls froa Mr. Sullivan at 

the office? 

A No. 

Q NOM* there was a day that mo started to talk 
about soae aoaents ago at the office* Mhen you were 
asked to destroy certain docuaentsi aa I right? 

A Yes. 

Q When Mas that? 

A That Mas In Oeceaber* the first part of 
Oeceaber . 

Q Of? 

A •86. 

Q Would you describe as best you recall It Mhat 
happened on that day? 

A Hr. Secord caae in and decided mo needed to go 
through our files. I think he actually Mont through our 
subject files and took anything out that he Manted 
destroyed or put Into the storage boxes. 

I Ment through the telex files and ay files 



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^ a person's na««« anything that raftrancad aonay* or I 

^ think I took out things that rafarancad part nuabars* 

^ lists of part nuabarst 9a«a thoaa to Nr. Sacord to go 

* through* 

' Q And than Mhat happanad? 

* A Anything ha Mantad dastroyad* ha gav* back and 
^ wa shraddad thea* 

^ Q Thara kaa a shraddar In tha offlcaT 

* A tas, 

^^ Q Mhar* kas that locatad? 

11 A It*s In our llttia kitchan araa. 

12 Q MUg participated In shradding tha docuaants on 

'3 that day? 

14 A I did* Joan Corbin* and Bob Outton. And I 

^' don't ballavs I avar ssm Mr. Sacord shrad anything. I 

^8 Has not standing thara. But again, that Mas In another 

^^ rooa* 

18 Q But Br. Sacord was telling you to shred the 

^^ doeuaents? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Old «r. Seeord tell you. then or any other 

22 iiaa attar. eh» he wanted those docuaents shredded? 



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A ho. 



^ Q Have you cvar disoussvd tha shredding with Hr. 



" Hakia? 
* A No. 

^ Q Old nr. Outton — has Mr* Outton avar said to 
you Mhy tha 4ocuBants were shraddad? 
A No* ha hasn't* 

Old tha docuaant shradding taka placa on aora 
' than Just that day In Oacaabar that you*va oascrlbadt 
A Yes* It did. 
Q Hon aany days after? 

A I den*t knoM* aaybe a couple of days. It Mas 
Just* I had steno books that I had kept aver since I 
Morked there* that I aade all ay notes on. Those ware 
destroyed. !*■ not sure they Mere destroyed on tha saae 
day. 



^^ Ua destroyed telephone log books* where you 

^^ have a copy cf Mho called In* phone aessages. Those 
19 



Mere destroyed. 

It was Just over a period of days. It Mas not 
Just one day standing there shredding. 



^ NoM* you have aentloned coaaunlcatlon devices 



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that M«re in tht office. When did you first !•• thoa in 
your offlcosl 

A Mhtn I €«■• bacit to worlct I guass* part-tiaa 
in tti* fall of •86. 

Q Old iho davlces arrlva aftar that or waro thay 
airaady thert? 
7 



A I balleva thay Mara thara. 

a 

Q Do you knoM fro* Mhera Mr. Secord obtalnad 

a 

thosa devlcast 

^° A It's part^tlaa In *8S» not *86. 

Part-tlaat *89. Lat*s go bacit so th« record 

is ciaar. 

You caaa bacit to aoritt you wara aoriilng 

part-tlae in 1989? 

A Yas. 

Q Oo yau recall the coaaunlcations devices being 

there during that part-tlae period? 



11 

12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 

^' A During the suaaer of '85 I did not aork at 

^' all. Mhen I caaa back in Septeaber* I think It was 

^ around October I raaeaber the encoding aaehlnas. 

21 Q October 1985? 

22 A Yes. 



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^ Oo you knoM how those aachines got to the 

^ office* Hherc they cane froa? 

^ A I assuBC Hr* Secord brought the* In* 

* Q Oo yeu knoM froa where he got the«? 

' A I understood he got the* froa the NSC. 

* The National Security Council? 
' A Yes. 

' Q On Mhat is that understanding based? 
^ A I believe he told ae they were froa the NSC. 
^^ That's your recollection? 

A Yes. 

Old Nr. Secord tell you Mho at the NSC had 
given h la these devices? 

A I believe he said he had gotten thea froa 
Oil le North. 

Q Is that your recollection of Mhat Mr. Secord 
told you? 
^' A Yes. 

^^ Q Old nr. Secord tell you for Mhat purpose he 
^ obtained these devices froa Nr. North? 
^^ A Hell* you could stay In coaaunlcat ions and 
^ they couldn't be — like a Hiretap on your phone) I 



70 



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don't knoM Mhcthcr you could tap into the** but you 
couldn't understand the* because they were in codes. 

Q Ho« aany such aachlnes Mere there in the 
office? 

A At that tlae there was one. 

* And Mas there a tiae that there was aore than 
7 
8 

* When was that? 
A Just recently there were five In there* In the 



one? 

A Yes. 



office* 





Old that — how long after the first did the 



10 
11 
12 

^^ other four — "" 

14 A Hell* let's see. When Bob Dutton started In 

^^ Hay of •86, ha received one. For soae reason* It see«ed 

^* like there was an extra one there that was In the file 

■•^ cabinet. I don't know where that caae froa. 

18 4„j then by the end of last year there were 

^® two aore. I don't know where they caae froa. 

20 Q They're aultlplylng. They not only were 

2^ called* but they were fruitful. 

22 Art there any aachines still In the office at 



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^ STT6I? 

^ A Yas* there are toa« there. 

3 Q Hon ■any? 

* A There are five. They're not the big encoding 

^ Machines that we had before. These are very saall. 

^ Q Baby aachlnes? This Is getting serious now. 

^ A Yes* they are very tiny ones. 

^ What happened to the big ones? 

^ A Mr. Secord took the* out of the office. 
^° Q Mhenf 

^^ A It's been in the past couple of weeks. 
^^ Q Oo you knoM where he took then to? 
''^ A No. It «as ay understanding that — I don't 

^^ knoM whether they were returned. He and Tea Creen 

^^ either returned the* to* I don't know if it was the 

^^ independent counsel or the FBI. 

^' Q Here the saaller aachlnes separate Machines? 
^^ A They were never used. I never saw these 

^^ used. I don't know where they caee fro*. They were 

^ Just there. I think Bob Just told ae that they were old 

^^ aachlnes that they had first used at one tiae* and I 

^ don't know where they caae froa. 



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^ Old you transcribe Messages that vert received 



on the big eachlres? 

A Yest I did. 

Mere they shoitn on a cathode ray tube or 
terainal? 

• A Yes» there's a little bitty one. There's like 
^ a wlndOM that mIII tal«e up to two lines at a tiae. 

^ And then you'd type it? 

* A Right. 
Q Oo you reaeMber the nave COP? 
A Yes. 

Q And did you understand Mho used that naae? 
A No. I Just reaewber seeing it on one of the 

■ossages. 

15 Okay, You never heard* aside froa anything in 
^" the noMspaper* that COP was a naae for Hr. Secord? 
I^ A No. 

18 Q Do you reaeaber the naae Mr. Cood? 
« A Yes. 
^ Q Uho was nr. Cood? 

21 A Ollle North. 

22 Q HoM did you know that? 



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1 


A 


2 





3 


recal 11 


4 


A 


5 


yaar • 


e 


Q 


7 


A 


8 


Q 


9 


A 


10 


Q 


11 


A 


12 


Q 


13 


Stceit 


14 


A 


15 


Q 


16 


A 


17 


it was 


18 





19 


A 


20 





21 


A 



Mr. Sacord told ■«. 

And ha told you that as of Mhant do you 

I don't racall* Soaa tiae ovar tha past 

Bafora Novaabar 19867 

Yas. 

Okay. Oo you reaaaber tha naaa Blacklat 

No. 

Staal? 

Yas. 

And froB Hhare do you raaaabar tha naaa 

Again* froa tha ancoding aachlnas. 
Mhat atout Castillo? 

Faalllar* but I don't knoM froa whare* unless 
t aachlnas. 
Coaaz? 

Yast tha aachlna. 

And do you knoM Mho ha Mas or sha Mas? 
I knaM ha had soaathlng to do Mith Cantral 
^ Aaartcan oparatlons. 



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^ Q What about the na«a Fernandez? 

* A No. 

^ Q Rodrtguez* Felix Rodriguez? 

* A Yes* I reaeaber his naae froa the Machines. 
' Q Do you knoM what his Involveaent with Hr. 

Secord Mas? 

^ A No. 

* Do you know Mhere he was? 

' A I assuaed he was In Central Aaerlca. He caae 

^° here one tiae. I reaeab«r* I think It was Bob* saying 

^^ that he was staying at the Mestpark Motel. 

''^ Q The Uestpark where? 

■" A Tysons Corner. 

^* Q Uhen was that? 

1' A naybe last spring. 

!• The spring of IS86? 

17 A *e6* or the suaaer. 

18 Old nr. Secord or Hr. Outton go to aeet with 
^* Hr. Rodriguez at the hotel? 

20 A I don't know. 

21 Q Now* you've aentloned Central Aaerica several 

22 tiaes* and earlier aentloned soaethlng about the 



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^ oparatlon in Central Aa«rlca» What was your 



understanding of what your coapany was doing In Central 
A«erlca« Mhat business they had there? 

A Hell* no one ever explained It to ae* 



^ Q What did you think? 



A I Has told* when Bob Outton caae to Mork* that 
he Mas to oversee the Central Aaerlcan operation. I 



^ just assuaed that they Mare Involved In resupplying* 



9 

A Hells the contras. 



Q Resupplying Mho? 
10 



^^ Q Old anyone ever tell you that? 

12 



A No. 

On Mhat did you base the assuaptlon? 

A Hell« because soae of these Messages Mould 

coae In and they Mould be asking for certain supplies* 

aedlcal supplies* boots* unlforas* netting* parachutes* 
that kind of thing. 

Q Old you knoM the naae Adolfo Calero? 

A Yes. 

Q HoM did you know that naae? 

A He's called the office before. 



^ Q And has Hr. Secord called hia? 



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A I believe so. 

Q And did you Knon that he Mas a contra leader? 

A Yes* I did. 

Q Hon about Mr. Arturo Cruz? 

A No. 

Q Adolfo Robelo? 

A No. 

Q tvwt Beba? 

A No. 

Mhat did you understand fir. Outton*s role was 
In tens of overseeing the Central Aaerlcan operation? 
Oo you knoM uhat his specific job duties were? 

A Just tc kind of be a eanager and Keep things 
running SMOOthty* and I guess take care of the people 
they were dealing with. That's Just ay opinion. 

Did Nr. Outton or Hr. Secord keep a diary or 
appolntaent book? 

A Bob Dutton has always kept very detailed 
notes. I wouldn't call it a dlaryi but I guess an 
appointaent book. 

Q liOM abcut Hr. Secord? 



77 



** A klhat we noraaily do Is* if he has a Meeting or 



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soavthing ite'r* anar* of« we'll urit* It on his calendar 
^ that h« kccpi on his desk. Personallyt I don't •>- If he 
keeps a personal one* I don't know* 

Q You didn't keep a book for hia? 

A No. 

Q Or far Mr. Dutton? 

A No. 

Q What atout Hr. Hakia? 
' A I did not keep one for hIa. 

Q Old he have a calendar or a diary of his own 
that you knon of? 

A Yes* he did. He carried one. I don't know 
how detailed It wast but he carried one. 

Q Old Hr. Button travel on business! 

A Yes« he did. 

Q To where? 

A I reaeaber two trips to El Salvador. 

Q Uhcnl 

A I know one was — I guess they were both over 
the suaeer. I think he was there In August or 
Scpteaber* ard I *a not sure of the other tiae that he 
went down there. 



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^ Q Anyplace else? 

^ A H« M«nt to California* h« Ment to San Jose or 

^ Los Catost tc whore fir. Hakla lives. 

* Q Where In Cal tfornia? 
^ A Los Gatos. 

* Q AnyMbere else In CalifornlaT 

^ A Oh» he's a consultant for Lockheed. He did a 

* couple of trips with thea. 1 think he went to Ontario. 
^ California* for Lockheed. 

Do you know for how long Toa Crean has been 
I with Rr. Secord? 
SInca I have worked for hia. 
Since you started? 
Yes. 
And did you always know hla as Secord's 

Yes. 

Has there another Creen? 
Not that I know of. 
Did you now of a Hr. Tony Creene? 
Oh* yes. He'i called the office on a couple 
^ of occasions. 



10 


Q 


11 


assocla^ 


12 


A 


13 


Q 


14 


A 


15 


Q 


16 


lawyer? 


17 


A 


18 


Q 


19 


A 


20 


g 


21 


A 



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ao 



^ And did you ever call hta? 

^ A No« I don't bcllev* I havo. 

^ And Hho did he ask to speak to on those 
occas lenst 

A Mr* Secord* 

Q Oo you know Mhcre he Mas calling froa? 

A No. He has a British accent. 

Q Oo you know what his business was or what his 

^ reason for ealllngt 

^° A Well* at one tiae I thought he alght be 
11 



associated ulth Oavid Nalkert because I think we 
received telexes froa both of thea and It seeas like It 
was the saae call letters at the bottoa. So that's 
where I aade the association with OavId Malker. 

Q Oo yau know the naae Noel Koch* K-o-c-h? 

A Yes. 

Q And who do you know hia to bef 

A He was« I think — I *a not sure what his title 
was — was like an Under Secretary of Defense or 
Assistant Secretary of Defense. 

Q And how did you coae to know his naae? 
^ A Nr. Secord was a aeaber of the SOPAG* and the 



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^ Beatings M«r« arranged through Noel Koch's office. It*s 

^ a panel eade up of retired generals and adalrals that 

^ coae In and« I guess* give advice on probleas. 

* Q Mhat do those Initials stand for? 

' A Special Operations Planning Advisory Croup. 

* Q And Is SCPAC still In existence* to your 
knoMledge? 

^ A I think it Is* but I don't think Mr. Secord Is 



on the panel any longer. 

Q When did he cease to be on the panel? 



" A I eo«*t know. !•■ not sure if It's a cycle* 
^^ Mhere you serve a year or two and then they bring In 
13 



different people. 1 don't think he's done It in the 
past year. 
15 Q Qi^ (,, have contact with Hr . Koch during 

'^ IS86? 

" A Yes. 

18 Q Old he call hla* Koch call Secord? 

1* A Back and forth. 

-^ Q Back and forth. 

21 Any letters to or froa Mr. Koch that you're 

^ aware of? 



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A Not that !*■ anare of. 

Q NoH* on tha telexes that you either brought to 
question that day at the Embassy Suite or telexes that 
you shredded In the days before* do you recall the 
subject setter of those telexes? 

A The ones that Mere — soae of thea were back 
and forth to CSP« and It would be llket again* Manting 
to knoM Mhat happened to funds that Mere supposed to 
have coee In at a certain tiae* asking thea to fol Iom up 
on It* 

There Mere soae In connection m I th Udall* that 
Me Manted to know Mhat had happened to the aoney* If 
they Mere trying to collect It* I knoH there Mas one 
note froa David halker* too* 

I can't reaeaber all of thea. 

Q Do you recall any Mention of Moapons* 
aunltionst in any of these telexes or other docuaents 
that Mere shredded or brought to Secord that day? 

A !*■ not sure they ever aentloned Meapons 
specif leal ly. 

Q Hell* let ae see* Do you reaeaber any telexes 
^ that aentloned BioMpipes? 



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^ A BloMplpat? 

' Q Do you reMeaber ever seen telexes like that? 

A No* You know* soMetlaest like I saidt there 
Mere soee that had like part nuabers* But tihen you get 
into a series of part nuabers and what it wast I dldn*t 
pay attention. 

Old you ever hear any discussion In the office 
of aoney obtained froa any foreign governaents to assist 
the contrast 

A No. 

Do you knoM Mhether Mr. Sacord had any 
dealings with the governaent of Saudi Arabia on that 
aattert 

A I doa*t knoM. 

Q You don't know one way or the other? 

A No. 

Q HoM about Taiwan or Korea? 

A I don't knoM. 

Q Brunei* B-r-u-n-e-l? 

A No. 

Okay. Did you know the naae Rob OMen} 



A No. 



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Q How about Robert Earl? 

A Y«f. 

Who did you know hi* to b«? 

A That ho Morked in OIlie North's office at the 



1 

2 
3 

4 

^ NSC. 

Q Hon did you coaa to knoM hia? 

^ A He would call the office also. 

3 

And ask to speak to whoa? 

' A I think aost of the tiae he talked to Bob 
10 



Dutton. 
11 



a Did Nr. Button ever ask you to place any calls 



to Mr. Earl? 



A No. 



Q Do you know business Dutton had with Earl? 
A No. 



14 

15 

Q Old you ever know what business Secord had 

^^ with Lieutenant Colonel North? 
« A NO. 

^' Q Old you ever know what they were working on 

* together? 

^^ A No* I ^aM never told. 
^ Q Weren't you curious? 



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' A I thought — noMt this is Just what I 

^ thought. No ono aver told ■«. I thought th«y w«r« 

"^ Morking on a rescue atteapt for the hostages Mho Mere 

* being held In Beirut. 

' Q HoM did you coae to that conclusion? 

* A Once in a Mhile — Mell« I think on one 

^ occaslont Mr. Secord said soaething to the effect that* 

^ soaething about the hostages being releaseo and 

' everybody Mould be heros. And so froa that I assuaed 

^° that's Mhat thay Mere Morking on. 

11 Q Old you ever have reason to think they Mere 

^^ MorkIng on anything that related to Central Aaerlca7 



A Yes. 



Q 



Mhat gave you reason to think that? 



15 A 1 guess because of the Messages on these 

^' encoding aachlnes that went back and forth, because 1 

^^ Masn't SMare that they used thea for anything to do Mith 

^8 Europe. I aisuaed they -ere Just tor that operation 

^^ dOMn south. 

20 Old you ever ask Hr. Secord — you've traveled 

21 Mith hia froa tiae to tiae and sa- hia — Mhat business 

22 he had that involved a aeaber of the National Security 



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^ Council staff and Central AaarlcaT 
^ « No. 

Q Hera you curious about it? 

A I aas curlousf but I also know Hr. Sacord wall 
enough that it was soaathing that he was not going to 

toll ae even if I asked. 
^ What about Hr. Dutton? 
^ A I*«a never asked hla. 
Q Why not? 

A I ooa't know. I Just never have. 
Old you have any qualas about taking cash to 

the Old Executive Office Building for Lieutenant Colonel 
Morth? 

A Yes* that concerned ae. 

Q Did nr. Outton* when he gave you instructions* 

aake It clear that the cash was intended for Lieutenant 

Colonel North? 
A Yes. 

Q Old he say to you* Ollle*s waiting for It* 
soaething like that? 
21 A He did say Ollle was waiting for it. 
^ Q And It concerned you? 



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A I Mas concarnad carrying the cash* 

Q Uhy'd you do Itt 

A Hell* because I*d already said I Mould do It 
before I knew Mhat I Mas picking up. And then I 
thought* Mel I* I alght as mo I I go ahead and do lt( I'd 
already said I Mould. 

Q Old you express your concern to Mr. Outtont 

A Yes. I Mas concerned about* Mhat If I Mont 
through the little detector thing and they ssm* you 
knoM* stacks of aoney In this envelope. And he said 
they Mould have It packaged In a May that It Mouldn't be 
a problea. 

And then he says* you knoM* you don't have 
anything to Morry about. And I guess I Just took hi« at 
his Moro. 

Old you ever ask hi* at all* or Secord* Mhat 
the reason was for this cash? 

A No* I didn't. 

Q Any understanding of Mhat it Mas for? 

A No. I thought it Mas strange to bring aoney 
up and take It to the Executive Office Building. I 
could understand If they Mcre taking aoney doMn« if thay 



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Mere using It for Nicaragua or El Salvador. 

But no* I Mas hind of puzzled at that. 

Q HoM about Hr. Nlr? Have you ever heard of 
hia? 

A No* I don't think so. 

Q Nlarodl? 

A Yes* but !*■ not sure if it's not fro« the 
press* 

Q , Frea the press since Noveaber? 

A I don't recall hearing his naae In relation to 
the office. 

Q Do you reaeabcr Mhen the press disclosed the 
dealings bctkeen our governaent and Iran on the hostages 
in Noveaber 19867 

A tes. 

Q Old nr. Secord ever talk to you about that 
after It Mas disclosed? Did he aake any coaaents* 
observations to you* about the brouhaha In the press? 

A Ot^er than the press didn't knoM Mhat they 
Mere doing and were aessing everything up* 

Old he tell you Mhat they Mere aessing up? 
^ A No. Oh* he did say soaething about he thought 



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that thay M«r« endangering people's lives. 

Q Then you recall the Attorney General of the 
United States had a press conference In Noveaber« at 
Hhlch he announced that there was reason to think that 
■oneys that had been Involved In the Iran transaction 
had been diverted to the eontras* 
Do you rccal I that? 

A Uh-^aa. 

Old nr. Secord ever talk to you about that 
announceaent t express any vIoms to you concerning that 
■atter? 

A Noi he did not. 

Q Old he express any concern about that aatter 
to you? Has he ever discussed It with you at all? 

A Not he hasn*t« 

Q Ho« about Mr. Outton* saae questions? 



89 



A No. 

^" Q HaklB? 

« A No. 

^ Q Old Hr. Secord travel to Geneva in the fall of 

21 1986? 

^ A He Mas there in Septeabcr. Yes* Septeabert 



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1 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



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Mh«n I Mas th«va* 

Q Oo y»u recall If h« was there In hoveitber? 

A I con't recall nhethcr he Mas or not* 

Q Has he been to Geneva since Noveaber 1S86 that 
you knoM of? 

A I believe he has traveled to Geneva* 

Q bhenl 

A In the past three or four weeks* 

Oo you knoM If Mr* Hakia Mas there at the saae 
tlae? 

A I b«li-eve he Mas* 

Q HoM about Mr* Outton? 

A No. 

Q Old yob aake those travel arrangeaents for Rr* 

Secord three Meeks ago? 

A I don't reaeaber If I did or not* 

Q What travel agency did you use? 

A BT Travel* 

In McLean? 

A Vesf or Tysons Corner* 

Q And did Nr* Secord soaetlaes aake travel 
arrangeaents for hiaself? 



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A Yes* ht did. 

Q Do you knoM If he used the saa* agancyT 

A I ooa't know if he did or not. !*■ assuaing 
he did. 

Q For l»ai» long xas Hr. Secord In Ceneva three 
Moeks ago? 

A I think he was there Just for a few days. 

Q Do you knoM Mhat the purpose of that trip 
Mas? 

A Not 1 den*t. 

Q Aside froa that trip* has he aade any other 
trips to Geneva that you're aware of since the end of 
Noveabar? 

A Not that I*« aware of* unless I could look 
back through travel records. 

Q Shirley* have you told Hr. Secord that you*d 
be discussing these aatters with the Independent counsel 
or with us? 

A No. 

^ Q Has he ever talked to you about what you 
*^ should or shouldn't say In connection with any of these 
22 aatters? 



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A Mell* the only thing he's ever told me was to 
tel I the truth. 

Q HoM about Mr. Dutton? 

A No. 

Q Hr. MakiaT 

A Tell the truth. 

And you are telling the truth today? 

A Yet. 

CPausc.) 
Q Let ae aark as the next exhibit the subpoena. 
(The docuatnt referred to 
Mas aarked Napier Deposition 
Exhibit No. 6 for 
Identif icatlon.) 
Q I'll 90 to this In a aoaent. 

Let ae ask you about a few aore people. 
Robert Lilac* do you know hiaf 
A Yes. 
Q Who do you knoM hia to be? 



^ A He Harked as a consultant for us back in* I 
^^ believe it Mas* *84 or *89t when mo were working on the 
^ Marways project In Saudi Arabia. 



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2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



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Q In Sauol Arabia. Was HarMopM related to 



Secord's coapany In any way? 

A No. 

Ola soaebody froa that coapany share space 
with Secord when you f Irst'started working there? 

A Mhen w« first openedt he shared office spaces 
w I th us • 

Q And Mho was "he"? 

A His naae was Alfred Perry. 

<3 P-e-r-r-y? 

A Yes. 

Do you know where he Is today? 

A He has an office In Leesburg. 

And for how long did he share space* once you 
were there? 

A Until April of '86. 

Q And khtn? 

A And then he aoved out and opened an office In 
Leesburg. 

Q Under the naae Marwa^v? 

A Yet. 

Q What business Is Harwaia in? 



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A St««l business. 

Q Oo you hnoM CItnn Roblnette? 

A Yes* I do* 

Q Who da you knoM hia to be? 

A A security consultant for us. 

For your coepany? 

A Stanford Technology. 

Q Have you seen hln? 

A Yest I saw hie Tuesday* I believe. 

Q Tuesday of this week? 

A This week. 

Q He was in the office? 

A Yes. 

Q And Mho was he Meeting with? 

A He wanted to sect Mr. Secord and Mr, Secord 
dldn*t coae In that day. 

Q Old he leave any Message for Nr. Secord? 

A Just tc call hiM later. 

Q He appeared unannounced? 

A No* he called and said he was going to cone Dy 
and use our copier and wait for Hr. Secord to coHe in. 
Mr. Secord was expected In around noon. 



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Q Hao yob (••n nr , Roblnctt* at th« office 
before this recent Tuesday? 

^ A Yes. 

^ Q Is he a frequent wisltort 

' A Fairly frequently. 

Q Hon frequently? 

A Hayb* once a aonth* once every two ■onths. 

^ Q NOMt I think you told us that he was a 



^ security consultant for your coapanyt correct? 
10 A Yes. 

''^ Q Could you be a little aore specific about what 

1^ that aeant? 

13 A I «on*t knoM what It aeant. That Mas the nay 

^* 1 Mas told to write the checks* to aake It out to hU 

1^ and the purpose of the check Mas for security 



16 



consu 1 1 Ing . 



17 Q ^ob auch Mere the checks that you dreM to 



18 



hia? 



19 A They Mcre noraally either )9*000 or )6t000. 
* Q And hoM frequently did you draM those checks? 
*• A Maybe every couple of aonths. I think Me've 



22 



on 



ly aaybe dene five or six checks to hia. 



ALOERSON RIPORTINO COMPANY, IMC 
20 F ST.. H.W., WASHINGTON, DC. 20001 (202) 62S-9300 



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96 



Q Do you knot* whether Mr. Roblnette ever did any 
Mork for you that Involved Lieutenant Colonel North? 

A I con't knoM. 

Q Do you know if he ever did any work at 
Lieutenant Colonel North's house? 

A I don't knoM. 

Q Do you knOM the naae Nestor Sanchez? 

A No. 

Q Old Nr. Robert McFarlane call the office at 
any tiae while you've been eaployed there? 

A Not to ay knowiedgof but I noraally don't 
answer the phoac* 

G Do you know if Mr* Secord called Mr. HcFar lane 
on any occasions? 

A I don't know. 

Q Did he ever discuss Hr. ricFarlane with you? 

A No. 

Q Indicate whether he had any relationship with 
hin? 

A No. 

Q How about Adairal Polndexter? Did he ever 
call the office* to your knowledge? 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 628-9300 



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A Not to ay knowlodga* 

Old Hr. Socord ever ask you to get M« on the 



phone? 

A No. 



' Q E«er talk about hist 

6 



A No. 

Q Indicate he had any relationship with hia? 
A No. 

Old you knoM the naae Spitz Channel? 
A No. 

Q RIchare IM I ler? 
A No. 

Q National EndoMStnt for the Preservation of 
Liberty? 

A No. 

Q This Is a copy of Napier Exhibit 6* the 
subpoena that mo served on youf Shirley. 

HR. BELNICKl And I can address this question 
to counsel* If It's easier* Cerry. Aside froa the 
^ rolodex Me*ve identified and requested we be provided* 
^^ has Ms. Napier looked through the docuaents described In 
^ the subpoena and brought In today Mhatever she's found* 



AlOWSOM REPORTIHG COMPANY, INC 
20 F ST.. N.W.. WASMINOTOH. D.C 20001 (202) 62i-9J00 



316 



98 



^ but for the roloCex? 

^ MR. TREANORt Yes. 

RR. BELNICKt So I aa correct* aa I not* that 
this Is the subpoena that was served* a copy of It? 

HR. TREANORt It appears to be a copy of Mhat 
I received* 

MR. BELNICKt I represent that It's what I 
believe Is — 



° MR. TREANORt That's good enough for ae. 

^^ NR. BELNICKt Okay. 

11 



BY HR. BALLENt 
Q Let ae clarify the record. Is It true you 
also received a copy of the subpoena froa the House? 
A Yes* I did. 

Do yau recall when that Mas? 

A I think you have It there. I can get the copy 
of you Mant ae to. 

Q Just for the record. 

MR. BALLENt You've received the House 
subpoena as nell as the Senate? 

HR. TREANORt I believe all of the docuaents 



^ called for In both the House subpoena and Senate 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC 
30 f ST, N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (202) 621-9300 



817 



99 



^ subpoena have btan produced today* with the exception of 

^ a xerox copy of the rolodext which I believe Is the only 

^ personal docuaent In the custody of Hs. Napier at the 

* STT6I office. And Me will produce that. 

' MR. BALLENt Thank you very auch. 

* BY NR. BALkENt (Resuaing) 

^ Q I'a going to nork froa the back forward. 

* A Okay. 

* Q You testified a little bit earlier that fir. 
''*' Sacord ttas In Cenava three weeks agol Is that correct? 
''1 A Approx laatoly three weeks ago. 

12 Q Also* you believe Hr. Hakla was there* too? 
1' A Yes, 

14 Q What led you to believe that nr. hakla was 
^* also In Ceneva at the saae tiae as Hr. Socord? 

15 A We placed calls to Hr. Hakla and that was the 
^' country code* and the hotel was a hotel In Geneva where 
''* thay stayed before. 

IB Q Okay. Mho asked you to place the calls? 

20 A Hr. Secord would ask ae to call Albert. 

21 Q In Geneva? 

22 A Ua-haa. 



AiOWSOH RtPORTIMG COMPANY, IMC 
20 F ST. K.W.. WASHIHCTOH. O.C 20001 (2021 621-9100 



318 



100 



'' Q This Mas Mh«n h« Mas still In the Unltad 
^ Statas? 
3 A Yes. 
* Q Virginia? 

' A tes. 

^ Q Old you place any phone calls to Mr* Hak in In 
^ Geneva at the saae tlae« three weeks ago* that Mr* 
^ Secord Mas in Ceneva? 
^ A I doii*t believe so* no. 

^° Q I*B a little confused. What led you to 
^^ believe that Mr. Hakia was In Ceneva three weeks ago at 
^^ the saae tiae Mr. Secord was there? 

^^ A I guess I was Just assuaing he was still there 
^* Mhen Mr. Secord went* since we had talked to hi* there 
^^ before he went on his trip. 

^^ Q HoM auch before Hr. Secord went on his trip 
^^ did you talk -- ' did you place the phone call fro* Hr . 
Secord to Hr. Makia In Ceneva? 

A Probably a aatter of a few days. 
Q So It was shortly before? Would It be fair to 
say this was shortly before Hr. Secord left for Geneva* 
you placed a call to Hr. Hakla In Geneva to Mr. Secord? 



ALOERSON REP0RTIN6 COMPANY, INC. 
20 f ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, O.C 2000t (202) 628-9300 



319 



101 



^ A Y«s. 

' NoNt you ■•ntloned Hr. Clenn Roblnctte* a 

^ security consultant to the coapany* Old you avar cut a 

* chack for S2«000 for Hr. Roblnette? 

^ A Mr. Sacord cut a chack for $2*000 to Clann 
Roblnatta. 

' Q Uould you explain the circuastances of that? 

A It was a day I nas not In the offlcet and when 
I want to write out a chack I saw In the register that 
he had wrltttn a check to Clenn Roblnette In the aaount 
of S2*000. And the reference was for security 



^^ consulting. 

''3 Have you read In the press about a gate being 

^* constructed at Hr. North's house? 

^' A Yes* I did. 

18 Q Oo yau recall whether or not the check that 
''^ Mr. Secord wrote was around the tlae of the gate 

^^ construction? 

19 A It was. 

20 Do you know what tlae that would be* 

approMlaately? 



21 



22 A It saaas like It was a couple of weeks ago 



AUJBUOH MPORTING COMPANY, IHC 
20 f ST., aw, WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (202) 62t-9300 



320 



102 



that that happened* two or three weeks ago. 
^ Approx iaately? 
3 



A !*■ not sure. The check was written on a 
Thursday. Again* I'd have to go back to ay check 
register. And that was a couple of weeks ago. 

You also testified thatt on the Messages that 
caae across the coaaun I cat ions device* that you typed 
certain hard copy of those aessages? 

A Yes. 

Q Would that be correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Here any of those —— did you ever see any of 
those typed copies after you had typed then? 

A That I had typed? 

Q Yes. 

A I believe I saw the* in Bob Dutton's office* 
on his desk or scacthing* when I would take soaething 
in. 

Old there ever coae a tiae when the 
coaaun icat ions device got a printer attached to It? 

A Yes* we did get a printer. 

Q And when would that be? 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST.. N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 |202| 628-9300 



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A I believe It was last fuaaer* the tuRMer of 
*86t Me got a printer* 

Q Hod did that printer MorK* to the best of your 

knoM lecse? 

A It Mas attached to the encoding aachlne and I 
think you hit a button. When a Message caae ln« after 
it was finished* you could hit a button for print and it 
printed out a copy* 

Q Old you ever see any of those printed copies? 
A I saM the«* never close enough to pick them up 
and read thee. 

And Mhcre do you think you saw thea? 
A That Mas In Bob's office. He had the printer 
^* In his off Ice. 

^^ Q Do you know Mhat happened to either the copies 
^^ you typed — do you know what happened to the copies you 
■"^ typed? 

^^ A I gave thea to either Bob or Mr. Secordt 
^^ Mhoevcr had asked ae to type it out. 

20 Q And hoM about the copies* the printed copies 

21 froa the coaaun I cat Ions device? What happened to 

22 those? 



ALDEHSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 62S-9300 



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104 



A Bob Outton had thea. I don't know Mhether he 
Kept thea or threw thea away. 

Q Aaong the docuacnts that Mr* Secord asked you 
to shred In Oeceaber 1986« did you notice any typed 
coaaun i cat Ions docuaents? 

A No. 

You don't recall any? 

A No. Nr. Secord gave ae soee papers to destroy 
' that ha had In his office or In his briefcase. He 
produced thcat I don't know where they caae froa. I 
shredded thea» but I shredded thea face-down. 

So you don't know? 

A So I have no idea what they were. 

Q Mere they white business — what did they look 
like? 

A They were Just like white paper* like thatt 
Just a stack probably about like that. 

Q Could you tell whether the writing went all 
the way down the page* It was a half a page? 

A I didn't pay that close attention to thea. 

Q This would be during the tiae period when Hr. 
Secordt in Oeceaber of '86* when he had asked you to 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (202) 62S-9300 



323 



109 



^ shred decuaentst Mould that b* correct? 

* A Ye«. 
3 



Q Mould that be — !•■ Just trying to fix In 
your Meaory how far Into Oeceaber that occurred* Would 
that have occurred In the first week or the second Meek 
or the third weekt as best you can recall? 

A I hnoM It was before the 19th of Oeceaber* Is 
all that I can recall. I left on Chrlstaas vacation the 
19th of Oeceaber* so It nas done before that. I really 
don't reaeabtr whether It was the first or second or 



third week. 

^2 a Here the days -- you said It happened on nore 

^^ than one day. Ucre the days one after another or were 

^* they spread out over a long period of tine? 
15 A I think they were spread out over a period of 

1^ tiae. 

I^ Q Qg you have any recollection at all whether a 

^^ period of tlae had passed In Deceaber before the first 

1^ date occurred that you were asked to do thIsT 

20 A No. 

21 Q Are there files kept of the Aaerlcan Express 

22 records? 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST^ K.W.. WASHINGTON, B.C. 20001 (2021 62S-9300 



324 



106 



A Yes. 

Art those files kept now currently at STTCI 
offices? 

A hith the exception that the Independent 
^ counsel has taken all of the* outt they are kept there. 

Q Those are docuaents as mo 1 1 that the 
Independent counsel has taken outf In addition to the 
other docuaents that you described? 

A Yest yes. 

Q NoMt you aentioned* If I recall correctly* at 
one point In tiae Secord Associates? 

A Yes. 

Q What Is Secord Associates? 

A That's another business of Mr. Secord*s. I 
don't know Mhal functions it perforas. Ue pay hia his 
salary as a consultant and the checks are aade out to 
Secord Associates* Incorporated. 

Q And hOM auch is the salary he gets paid? 

A S6«000 a Month. 
^ Q Is he paid a salary by STTCI? 
^ A STTCI Is the one that pays hia the S6*000 a 
^ aonthf and the checks are aade out to Secord 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC 
20 F ST.. N.W.. WASKIi'fSrOM, O.C 20001 (202) 62S-9300 



325 



^ Assocl8tei* 

^ Q Dots h« get another salary directly froi 

^ ST76I? 

4 



5 



6 



A No. 

Q As president of that corporation? 

A ho. 



Is Secord Associates an incorporated coapany 



10 



7 

^ as far as you knoii? 

^ A I assuae It is* If it's Secord Associates* 

Incorporated. 

^^ Q And do you perfora any secretarial duties or 

^^ other duties for Secord Associates* Incorporated? 

13 A No. 

1^ Q Does anyone to your knoMledge? 

1^ A No* not in our office. 

16 Oo you know of any business that this coapany 

1^ conducts? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Oo you knoM where the Secord Associates bank 
^ accounts are located* what bank? 

21 A No* 1 Con*t. 

22 Q How about the STTCI bank accounts? 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
10 f ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 (20J) 62S-9300 



326 



108 



A At First Aatrican Bank of Virginia. 
Q An« Mhich branch Is It? 



^ A Vienna. 



Q NoM* on the days involving the shredding of 
^ the docuaentst Just so I understand your testlaony 
^ correctly* Hr. Secord went through soae of the actual 
files and pulled doeuacnts that he then wanted you to 
shred? 

A Yes. 

Q In fact* he instructed you to shred theat is 
that correct? 

A Yes. 

(Pause.) 

Q Now* do you know the naae Erich von Rarbod? 

A I've heard it in the press. 

Old you ever Know whether he called the office 
or not? 

A Not that I over took a call froa hla. 

Q How about Edwin Wilson? 



y 



20 



22 



A No. 

Let ae ask about Theodore Shackley? Did you 
ever take any calls froa hia? 



ALOEMON UPORTING COMPANY, INC 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, DC 20001 (202) «28-9300 



327 



109 



'' A I believe so. 

^ Q hai he ever visited the office? 

^ A hot to ay knowiedge* 

* Q Old yoii eake any travel arrange«ents for fir. 
^ Secord and yourself with BT Travel? 

* A Yes« I did. 

^ Old he ever use any other conpany that you 
^ knoM of? 

hot that I know of. 

Old you destroy during Oeceiiber any rolodex 

Yes* I did. 

Do you recall any of the rolodex cards that 
^* you destroyed? 

15 A Oavid lialkar*s cardt Rafael Quintero* and I 
''^ believe Ollle North's card. 

17 Q Mho asked you to destroy those cards? 

18 A Mr. Secord asked m% to destroy David Walker's 
"•« card, and I destroyed Ollle North's and Rafael 

20 Quintero's because their nuabers were not good any 

2'' aore. 

22 Old «r. Secord asked you to destroy any other 



9 


A 


10 





11 


cards? 


12 


A 


13 


Q 



AIDIRSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST., M.W., WASHINGTON, DC. 20001 (202) 628-9300 



328 



110 



^ cards? 

' A I don't r*call. I don't think so. Thoso are 

the three I recall destroying. 

* HR. BALLEN; I have no further questions* 
(Discussion off the record.) 

* BY MR. HOLMES: 

^ Q Ms. Napier* were you ever employed as a 

' consultant for Aaerlcan National Manageaent? 
9 



A No. 

Q You never consulted for thea? 

A No. 

Q Old you ever receive any aoney froa that 
corporat Ion? 

A Yes. 

^^ Q What Mere the c Ircuastances of your receiving 
^^ that aoney? 

^^ A When I first started working for Stanford 
^^ Technology* Stanford Technology Mas sub-leasing office 
^^ space froa Aaerlcan National. And they paid ay salary 
^ and then billed Stanford Technology for ay salary plus 
^^ office space. 
^ Q Dio you actually perfora Mork for Aaerlcan 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20 F ST., N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (202) 62t-9300 



329 



111 



National or old you do all the work for Stanford? 

^ A I Morkcd for Stanford Technology. 

Q You never Morked under the direction of a nr . 
* Gadd? 

^ A Not 1 old not. 

Referrlns to your trip to niaHl on August the 
26th« 1<)86« prior to your trip you Matched rir. Outton 

Q 

■ ake a phone calK Is that correct? 
^ A I cldn*t Match him. He said he was going to 

aake a phone call. 
'''' Q Uhc did he cat It 

12 A I believe he called Qllle North. 
1^ Did he tell you he was going to call OIlie 
"■* North? 

1S A He didn't tali ae he was going to call Ollle. 
^^ But later in conversation it Mas that he had checked 
1^ Mith Ollle tc see if It Mas okay if I picked up the 
1* aoney. 

19 Q As I recall your tettiaony* there Mas another 

20 phone call prier? 

21 A He Mas going to call — the other Mas to 

22 Southern Air Transport to set up who I Mouid aeet and 



ALDEWON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON. DC. 20001 (2021 628-9300 



IS 



16 



18 



19 



20 



21 



22 



330 



112 



Mh«re • 



2 

A !•■ not sure who tie talked to* The aan that I 



G I assuae he talked to Hr. Langdon there? 

3 



4 

■ eet Ing. 



■et called at later that afternoon and arranged the 

S 



8 

A Yes. 



Q And he told you how to recognize hia? 

7 



Is that hOM you knew what an SAT 10 badge 
looked like tihen you arrived there? 

1° A Yes. 

Q Had you ever seen one before? 

^^ A No* 1 had not. 

^^ What did It look like? 
14 



A It Mas a very large badge* and It had their 
picture and it had "SAT" across the top. 

Old the picture natch the face that you were 



'*' looking at? 



A Yes* it did. 

Q You picked up the package fro* this aan In the 
airport in Hiaai and opened It in the Monen's rooa* is 
that right? 

A He opened it in the lounge and shoned ae the 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, O.C. 20001 (202) 621-9300 



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113 



■oney. 

And then you reopened it in the Moaen's roo«7 

A Yet. 

Q It Mas then packaged In a Federal Express 
^ envelope* is that right! 

A Vet. 

Old you repackage It for delivery to the White 
House? 

A Not I did not. 

You delivered it In the saae envelope In which 
you got it? 

A Yes. 

Q And that was a Federal Express envelope? 

A Correct. 

It was all in bills of the size of $20 or 
saalier* Is that right? 

A Yes. 

^B Hon thick was the stack of bills? 

'>9 A Probably about like that ( Indicat ins > . 

^ Q That's about an inch or an inch and a half? 

21 A Yes. 

22 a uere the bills new or old? 



AIDIRSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 f ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 1202) 628-9300 



114 



^ A 010. 

^ Q Noil* you had occasion to discuss the aoveaent 

^ of ■onty In cash to Latin Aatrica bafora* hadn't you? 

* A No. 



' Q That had navar coaa up In conversations Mith 



6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



anybody of the people at STT6I7 

A No. 

Q Old you knoM hOM they Mere paying for the fuel 
for the airplanes In Latin Aaerlca? 

A Not I oldn*t. 

Q Has there any aessage traffic In relation to 
the aoveaent ot cash that you were aitare oft 

A Are you talking about on the aachlnes* 
aassages? 

Yes. 

A Yes. They Mould ask for funds* they Mould — 
I think they Mould send a aessage as to Mhat their 
expenses Mere at different tiacst housing* telephone* 
and I believe salaries for the aen that were dOMn 
there. 

Old It appear to you that Mr. Cooper was 
priaarlly In charge of that? 



AL0ER5ON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (202) 628-9300 



333 



119 



A Vett by what Bob Outton said about hia* I 
believe he was in charge of It. 

Oo you knoM whether Mr. Outton had spoken with 
Mr. Cooper befare the August 26th aoveaent of the cash? 

A I don't believe he did. When I said that I 
would go downt I don't know whether he talked to hi* or 
not. I don't th Ink so. 

Isn't It true that Mr. Cooper was In the 
District of Coluabia about a week before that? 
A That I don't know. 
Q You don't recal I? 
A No. 

MR. TREANORt I'* not sure she said that she 
doesn't reaeaber. 

MR. HOLnSt I understand. 
'" HR. TREANORt I understood that her answer was 

^^ that she didn't know. 

^B THE HITNESSt I don't know. 

''* NR. holmes; I understand. 

^ BY MR. HOLHESi (RatualngI 

^ You said that you spoke to your husband about 
^ the aoveaent ot cash. When did you first speak to hia 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON. O.C 20001 (202) 628-9300 



334 



116 



^ about it? 

^ A Hhtn I talkad to ay lawyart and he had been 
^ talking to the Independent counsel and they were talking 
* about possibly prosecuting ae In connection with this 
^ aoney* And I thought that I should aake ay husband 
aitara of Mhat had happened* 

Q You hadn't aentioned it to hia at any tiae 

prior to that? 
A No. 

Q And you hadn't aantloned It to anybody else* 
Is that true? 
A No. 

Q Old you have any other cash transactions 

besides the ones you've talked about? 

A No* other than the S16*000 and the 115*000* 
no. 

Q You said that you bought business cards. 
Uhere did you buy thea? 

A I believe it ^as froa ninuteaan Printers. 
^ Q Is that in Vienna? 

^ A No* It Mas over on Courthouse Road. It 

^ probably Is a Vienna address. I believe It was 



AIDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC 
20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (202) 62S-9300 



335 



117 



^ ninuteaar* 



Is that tht only place that STTCI bought such 
things? 

A Yes» that's where we have had printing done* 

Old they also do your stationery? 

A NOf our stationery Mas done In California, 

a hher*? 

^ A I don't KnoM. I would have to go back through 

^ the bills to find out* Hr* Hakls Made the arrangements 
10 



for STTGl stationery* 

Q NoH« ns* Napier* we have had a discussion 
about soae subpoenas that you've already coaplled with. 
Are you aware that the Senate has served a subpoena on 
the corporation Itself recently? 

A No. 



16 Q You Should be aware that a subpoena Is In 

17 effect right now on the corporation Itself for virtually 
^^ all the corporate records* Vou understand that if the 
^^ corporate records are not produced pursuant to that 

^ subpoena by the corporation that would be conte*pt* 

21 HR* TREANORt Uhy are you giving these 

22 Instructions to her? 



ALOEUON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
10 r ST, K.W., WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (2021 621-9300 



336 



118 



^ THE HITNESSt On my part7 

nR. BELNICKt Excuse ae* excuse ae. Kip« are 
Me finished ulth the questions now? I think we've 
cowered the area* 
^ HR. MOLHES; That's all. 

* HR. BEhlCKt Okay* thank you. 

MR. BELNICKt Let ae Just aark one or tMO 
other docuaents* Shirley* that you brought with you. 

THE WITNESSt Well* can I have soaething 
clarified here? Aa I being held in conteapt If the 
coapany doesn't-- 

HR. BELNICKt No. Let ae clarify that for the 
record. You are not being held in conteapt. The 
coaaent Mas rot aeant to threaten you Mith conteapt or 
to suggest anything of the kind. I believe you should 
take It Just as a coaaent that* by May of inforaation* 
the Senate has served a subpoena on the corporation. 

You arc not the corporation. 

THE HITNESSt Okay. 

HR. BELNICKt You have been very cooperative 
here today* and there Mas no iaplication to the contrary 
^ in that question* certainly none intended by the Senate 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC 
20 f ST., N.W., WASHINGTON. D.C 20001 (202) 62t-930O 



337 



119 



Com* I ttce. 



Okay* so plaas* ralax. Oon't taha anything 



3 froa It* okay. All right. 



Uould you aark this as tha naxt axhiblt. 

(Tha docuaant rafarrad to 
was aarkad Napier Oaposltlon 
Exhibit No. 7 for 
Idant if Icatlon.) 
^ BY NR. BELNICKI (Rasuaing) 

Shirlay* this Is Naplar Exhibit 7. Is this a 
record you brought with you today of your travel on 
April 2S and April 30« 19867 
A Yes* It Is. 

Okay. And you produced that this aornlng7 
A Yes* I did. 

MR. BELNICKt Would you aark this next 
docuacnt as Napier Exhibit 8. 

18 (The oocuaent referred to 

19 M8S aarked Napier Deposition 

20 Exhibit No. 8 for 

21 identification.) 

22 BY NR. BELNICKt (Resuaing) 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST, M.W., WASHINGTON, D.C. J0001 (2021 6289300 



338 



120 



^ Q NoMf is Naplcr Exhibit 8 a copy of a travai 



record you brought with you this aorning of your travei 
^ on Septe*b«r 23« 1S86« to Cenava? 
* A Yes* It is. 

Q Shirlayt the last question I wanted to ask 

you* and you aay have answered If before. If you did* 
^ forgive aa for repeating. But In connection with the 
^ transaction In August 1986 when you delivered the cash 

g 

to the OEOB* you told us that soae tiae thereafter you 

discussed that transaction with tlr. Secord* right? 

" A Yes. 
12 



Q And I believe you told us that he expressed 
concern that you were involved in this or becaae 
involved In that* correct? 

A Yes. 

Q Can you recall* was he any aore specific 
about* In his words* as to what he was referring to when 
he said* I *a sorry you've been Involved* becoae involved 
in "this"? Oo you reaeaber specifically* aore 
specifically* what he said? 

A I thlnl( the concern he expressed on the part 
of Colonel North was that aaybe for security reasons he 



ALDERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC 
20 F ST.. N.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20001 |202) 628-9300 



121 



Mas a littla reluctant to have soaaona alsa Know about 
It. Hr. Sacord's concern was Just for «y personally 

^ being Involved In It. 

* Q And Involved In Mhat? 

' A I don't knoM* other than picking up this 

cash. He never expressed why* what the whole scope of 

7 



8 



9 



the thing was that I would be — that he would be 
concerned about ay being involved. 



fIR. BELNICKt Kent do you have any Bore 

^^ questions? 

'''' MR. BALLEN: Just one further aatter for 

^^ clarification. I think you understand that here today 

^^ we're in executive session. Nothing that has been taken 

^* down In this deposition Is going to be repeated to 

^^ anyone outside of this rooa other than perhaps* In the 

^' case of the House* to the chief counsel for the House or 

''^ the Chalraan ot the Conaittee or the ranking Republican 

^B aeaber. 

19 In addition* we would request that you not 

20 repeat the contents of this. 

21 THE WITNESS* Certainly. 

22 HR. IREANORt Hell* now wait a alnute. I will 



ALOEUON UPORTING COMPANY, INC. 
20 F ST.. N.W., WAiHINGTOM, D.C 20001 (2021 628-9300 



340 



10 



11 



122 



^ advise her as to nhat she can or can't do. 
2 MR. BALLENi She can do it. 

NR. TREANQRl I understand your request and 
we'll consider your request* along with any other 
factors that relate to our coaaun icat ins what we've 
heard today. 

HR. BELNICKt Speaking for the Senate 
^ Coaalttee* we'll only be discussing your testlaony with 
those on the staff of our Coaaittee that need to know. 



Beyond that* what you should or should not do with your 



testiaonyv you should be guided* in our view* solely by 

12 



your counse I . 

I want to thank you for appearing here today 
and for giving us testlaony. 

Is there anything that you want to add? 

THE UITNESSI I can't think of anything I've 
left out today. 

HR. BELNICKt Mr. Treanor* did you want to ask 
any questions? 



ALDERSOM REPORTING COMPANY. INC 
20 F ST., M.W.. WASHINGTON, D.C 20001 (202) 628-9300 



341 



123 



HR. TREANORt I have no questions* thank yoo. 
HR. BELNICKt Thanh you for your cooperation. 
THE UlTNESSt You're Melccne. 
(Whereupon* at 3t45 p.a.* the taking of the 
instant deposition ceased.) 



Signature of the witness 
SI6NE0 AND ShORN TO before ne this 
day of « IS8 . 



1 
2 
3 

4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 

'* Notary Pub I ic 

^* My CoMMission explresl 

15 

16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



ALOERSON REPORTING COMPANY. INC. 
20 F ST., N.W., WASHINGTON. O.C. 20001 (202) 621-9300 



342 



CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 

I, JANE w. BEACH , the officer 

>fore whom the foregoing deposition was ^.aken, do hereby certify 
that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 

was duly sworn by ME ; that the testimony of 

said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter 
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither 
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 
action in which this deposition was taken, and further that I am not 
a relative or employee of amy attorney or counsel employed by the 
parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the 
utcome of the action. 

NOTARY PUBLIC 
My commission expires // ■■ ILI ~ / / . 




343 



EOZRAVEL 

8206 LEESBURG PIKE/SUITE 202/VIENNA, VA 221 80 



NAPIER /SHIRLEY A 



STANFORD TECHNOLOGY TRADING GRP 
ATTN SMS SHIRLEY NAPIER 
8615 WESTWOOD CENTER DR 
VIENNA VA 22160 



INT 



OATC 

AUG 25 1986 



INVOICE 

9690 



ACCOUNT: 300 



26 AUG 86 - TUESDAY 
PRESIDENTIAL 831 COACH CLASS 

LV: WASH/DULLES 925A CONFIRMED 

AR: MIAMI 1155A 

AIRPORT BOARDING PASSES ONLY 

24 HR EMRGNCY NMR 800-645-9360/NY STATE 800-732-9639 
♦♦♦THANKYOU FOR BOOKING BT TRAVEL. 
CHANGES COULD RESULT IN HIGHER FARE 

COMPARED TO THE FULL FARE THIS REPRESENTS A SAVINGS OF ♦ 301.00 

7652493566 CARD 99.00 



TICKET NUMBER/S* 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY A 



AIR TRANSPORTATION 



91.67 TAX 7.33 TTL 

SUB TOTAL 

CREDIT CARD PAYMENT 
AMOUNT DUE 



99 , 00 

99.00 

99.00- 

.00 



703-790-0460 




344 



BT-ffiAVEL 

8206 LEESBURG PIKE;SUITE 202/VIENNA. VA 22 1 80 
STANFORD TECHNOLOGY TRADING GRP INT 
ATTN: MS SHIRLEY NAPIER 
6615 WESTWOOD CENTER DR 
VIENNA VA 22180 



NAPIER/SHIRLEY A 



DATE WVOCE 

AUG 25 1986 9691 



26 AUG 86 - TUESDAY 
UNITED 888 SPCL CLASS 
LV« MIAMI 129P 

AR: WASH /DULLES 354P 



ACCOUNT: 300 



57 



CONFIRMED 



SEAT- 4C 



24 HR EMRGNCY NMR 800-645-9860/NY STATE 800-732-'9639 
♦♦♦THANKYOU FOR BOOKING BT TRAVEL. 
CHANGES COULD RESULT IN HIGHER FARE 

COMPARED TO THE FULL FARE THIS REPRESENTS A SAVINGS OF ♦ 300.00 

TICKET NUMBER/Si 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY A 7652493567 CARD 100.00 



AIR TRANSPORTATION 



92.60 



TAX 7. 40 TTL 


100.00 


SUB TOTAL 


100.00 


CREDIT CARD PAYMENT 


100.00 


AMOUNT DUE 


.00 



703-790-0460 



CUSTOMER ITINERARY 



345 



^/^ I ^^ — Firs! Arrfc i,--.- r.'nni.. f.'...—. t '■ vfif-'i :,; £-, n.,'.! 



I 



n 



PK 7OJ.3S6-4«01 



Mar. 26, ,„86 ».-._„ 



PAT TO TMI (-"aeVl 

otoe« r.. i-asn 



— Ir V, '.: .,i — 

Ei qht tbQMs^nd— {"lyinRiTYTggg" 



tki^NMBicAiro.p 



fl.w. 



J 8,000.00 

^n O L I A « S 



LiJpstooi, 2i,^i:_ ji50i.q_EiOaii" o rei 




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(^ j:o_5j.aoi,ai,;i: g.Bouqe.oaN' oioi /oooo70oooo.'*^. 



346 



^ 



j:x 



,(^ 



^ 






347 



Cash Transactions: 



$15,000.00 
3/26/86 



Cashed two checks (#101 $7,000.00/#102 $8,000.00) for 
Albert Hakim from his personal account at First American 
Bank. 



$16,000.00 
8/26/86 




He was waiting for a $15,000.00 wire transfer to his 
personal account when it came (he had me call the bank 
and check to see if it had been credited to his account 
so he could wirte checks on it) he had me type the checks 
he signed them and then he asked me to cash them at 
seperate banks. I cashed one at the Vienna branch and 
the other at the Tysons Corner branch. I expressed some 
concern to Mr. Hakim about cashing them and he said I 
didn't have anything to worry about unless they were over 
$10,000.00. I cashed them and gave Albert Hakim the 
money. He left that night or the next morning on a trip. 
I don't remember where he was going — Geneva or maybe London. 
Tom Clines and Rafael Quintero were in the office the day 
I cashed the checks. I don't remember where the wire 
tramsfer came from - I assume Switzerland. 



8/25/86 Bob Dutton was trying to get in touch with Bill 
Cooper (BC was coming to DC) to have him go to Micimi 
and pick up documents. Bob was leaving on a trip that 
night and was having a problem getting in touch with 
Cooper. • RVS was traveling and I had very little to do 
so I said I would go to Miami and pick up the documents. 
Bob said he would have to make a call. He did and came 
back and said it was okay if I went. He got on the phone 
again to arrange the pick up and I made my reservations . 
At this point he told me I would be picking up $16,000.00 
from an SAT representative possibly Bill Langton but 
they would call and coordinate with me. Later in the day 
the man from SAT called smd told me how to recognize him 
and arranged where we would meet. I don't remember his 
name but I believe he is the comptroller for SAT, he 
hadn't been with them for very long. On the 26th I flew 
to Miami, met the man - we went into a lounge, he gave me 
a Federal Express envelope, he opened it and showed me 
the money. The lounge was very crowded and I didn't want 
take the money out and count it. He vouched for the 
amount and I signed a receipt. We were in the lounge 
maybe 20-25 minutes. We left the lounge and I went into 
the ladies room and counted the money - $16,000.00 in 
small bills - I don't remember if there was anything 
higher than a $20 bill. I came back to Dulles and took 
the money to the Old Executive Office Bldg. I called 
Fawm Hall and told her I was downstairs and had an 
envelope Ollie was waiting for. She came down, took tne 
envelope, we exchanged a few words and I left. 






348 



Travel : 



March 13-16, 1986: London 

Accompanied Mr. Secord to attend a meeting with 
a Mr. Khalid Rasheed concerning a consulting 
agreement between the two. I was there to take 
notes and draft the agreement. No definite 
agreement was agreed upon, I never wrote up 
anything. Mr. Secord and Mr. Rasheed met 
together privately. I don't know what they 
discussed at these meetings. 

Mr. Secord also met privately with David Walker. 

April 29-30, 1986: Miami 

Met with a representative of the Jamaican govt, 
concerning radios. Present at this meeting was 
Mr. Secord, Mr. Olmstead and myself. Mr. Secord 
asked me to listen carefully but not take notes 
and write it up after the meeting. I was in this 
meeting for approximately 20-25 minutes. Two men 
arrived (ecurlier I was told they would be coming 
that they were with Motorola) and Mr. Secord asked 
me to leave and return to Washington. 

August 26, 1986: Miami 

Met with a man from Southern Air Transport and 
he gave me $16,000.00 in cash. I was in the 
Miami Airport about an hour, return to Dulles, 
drove to the Old Executive Office Bldg. and gave 
the money to Fawn Hall. 

Sept 23-26, 1986: Geneva 

Met Mr. Secord to deliver STTGI stationery and 
brochures he forgot to take with him. 



^^A/a1Um^ ^. Jltf^ot../.^^ 



^//0/^V 




349 



V'^ 



UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 

Congxtii of tije Winittti i^tatti 



To 



Shirley Napier 



3340 Mansfield Rd. 



Falls Church, VA ^^^^^^. 



$OrS(aant to lawful authority, YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED to 

tar before the SELECT COMMITTEE ON £ 
0' IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OP POST ION 



appear before the SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

to ~ 



\of the 

Seriate of the United State; on MiacfiiLJLQ . W_a2, 

at 9: 30 o'clock a. m., at their committee room -Hart Senate — 

Office Bu ildinqf 9th Floor , tJien and there 

to testify what you may know relative to the subject matters under con- 
sideration by said committee. 
Pursuant to Committee Rule 6. ■■■t.hla_aubBoena directSL-aapearanCja— 

at the deposition whose n otice acrnrnpanies it. Y . di i m i ist . hrinq 

with vou the materials l isted in ftH-arhmftnt A. — _ 



Jj^eml faa not. as you wiU answer your default under the pains and pen- 
alties in such eases mad« and provided. 

T^ apY Select Co m mittee staff member nr U.S . Mfirshal 

to serve and return. 

6ibeii under my hand, by order of the committee, this 

25 ^—. Qf March __^ in the year of our 

Lord one thouetm nine hundredthndxSi.'Shtl^s^liSn 




vice Chairman 
Warren Rudman 



350 



UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
(Eangresfi of ttye Hniteb ^tatzs 



Notice of 
Senate Deposition 



Yq Shirley Napier 



_ ttrtrting: 



PUaae take nonce that at 9^30 o'clock A^_m., on March 30 

1 9 87 at Hart Senate Office Building, 9th Floor 

of the staff of the Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 
Opposition of the Senate of the United States, will take your deposition on oral examination 
concerning what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by said 
Select Committee. The deposition will be taken before a notary public, or before some other 
officer authorized by local law to administer oaths; it will be taken pursuant to the Select 
Committee's rules, a copy of which are attached. 



(iiOtU under my hand, by authority vested in me by 
the Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 
Opposition on March 2 5 iggj 




351 



ATTACHMENT A 
Shirley Napier 



The respondent shall produce: 

1. With regard to any activity undertaken by any corporation or 
partnership or association in which you have been an officer, 
director, partner or employee, all materials relating to: 

a. the payment of and service provided of any employee or 
provider of any personal service, including consultants, 
advisors, accountants, bookkeepers, shippers, warehousers, 
travel agents, freight forwarders, attorneys, and tax preparers, 
including any list of such persons' names, addresses or phone 
numbers. 

b. the provision of any communication services, including but 
not limited to telephone, long distance phone, mobile phone, 
pager, telex, or expedited mail services. 

c. the incorporation, designation of officers or directors, 
stock issuance, stock transfers, capitalization, financing, 
or corporate acts of any corporation, its parent, affiliated 
corporation or subsidiaries, if any, foreign or domestic 
including any and all corporate resolutions. 

d. tax records of any kind including income tax returns and 
supporting documents, filed with any department or agency of 
the United States, any State, or a foreign government. 

e. accounting records showing the profitability, net worth, 
assets or liabilities. 

f. the provision of any financial services, including but 

not limited to banking, pension, investment, lending, brokering, 
financing, bookkeeping, accounting or financial advising 
services, wherever located. 

g. the receipt, transfer or transportation of currency or 
any cash equivalent of a value of more than $1,000. 

h. any contract, agreement, or consultant arrangement involving, 
or any compensation from, any department division or agency of 
the United States, any State or political subdivision thereof, 
or any foreign government or subdivision thereof, whether 
executed or not, including those in which involvement was 
limited to consulting, advising, or discussing such event. 



352 



Page Two 



i. or consisting of appointment books, phone or other 
comnunication messages, phone number compilations or 
Lists, diaries, calendars or contemporaneous records of 
daily activity such as time billings. 

j. the acquisition by any person, transfer or transportation, 
whether by purchase, sale, lease, consianment or shipment, 
of: 

1. any weapon or ammunition of any kind 

2. any supply suitable for use in combat 

3. any air, sea or ground transportation vehicle or 
vessel 

including but not limited to materials relating to the sources 
and disposition of all financing and payments for such items. 

k. travel within, to or from Iran, Israel, Switzerland, 
Panama, Bermuda, Liberia, Lichtenstein, Hong Kong, the Cayman 
Islands, Portugal, Denmark, Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Costa 
Rica, Nicaragua, Honduras or Guatemala, by any officer, dire&tor, 
agent, employee, or provider or any personal services, including 
but not limited to consultants, advisors, or contractors. 

1. any communication with any person or entity in any of the 
countries in (k) above, whether in writing, telecommunication, 
radio or otherwise, by any officer, director, agent, employee 
or provider of any personal service. 

m. the purchase, sale, provision, transfer or transportation 
of any goods or services within, to or by any oerson or entity 
in any of the countries in (k) above. 

2. With regard to any activity undertaken personally or as a 
consultant, independent contractor or in any other capacity, all 
materials required in (1) above. 

3. All materials relating to any of the individuals or entities in 
Appendix A hereto. 

4. All materials relating to any American citizen held hostage. 

5. All materials relating to forces opposing the government of 
Nicaragua, including financial, military or other assistance to 
such forces, whether in Nicaragua or elsewhere. 

The term "materials" in this subpoena includes any book, check, 
cancelled check, correspondence, communiciation, document, financial 
record, recording tape, or any other item which you own or in 



353 



Paqe Three 



any way have in your custody or under -our control or that of 

any agent of yours, iated, created on, or relating to any date since 

January 1, 1982. 

"or any questions reqarding this subooena, contact Mark Belnick 
at (202) 224-9960. 



354 



APPENDIX A 



Any of the following persons: 

Bermudez , Enrique 
Calero, Adolf o 
Calero, Mario 
Cameron, Bruce 
Conrad, Daniel L. 
Cheunorro, Pedro 
Cooper, William J. 
Clines , Thomas 
Cruz , Arturo 
Cruz, Arturo, Jr. 
de Senarclens, Jean 
Dutton, Robert 
Fischer, David 
Furmark, Roy 
Gadd, Richard 
Garnel, Jose 
Ghorbanifar, Manucher 
Gomez, Francis 
Hakim, Albert 
Hashemi , Cyrus 
Hull, John 
Kashoggi , Adnan 
Kimche , David 
Ledeen, Michael 
Lilac, Robert 



Lilac, Robert 

McMahon, Steve 

McFarlane, Robert 

F. Andy Messing, Jr. 

Montes, Oscar 

Nimrodi , Yaacov 

Nir, Amiram 

North, Oliver L. 

Poindexter, John 

Quintero, Rafael 

Robelo, Alfonso 

Robles, Rodolfo 

Rodriguez , Felix aka Max Gomez 

Rose, Jose Bueso 

Sacasa, Marrio 

Sanchez, Aristides 

Schwimmer, Adolph (Al) 

Secord, Richard V. 

Shackley, Theodore 

Singlaub, John L. 

Soghanalian, Sarkis 

Sommeriba, Leonardo 

Wilson, Edwin 

von Marbod, Erich. 

Zucker, Willard I. 



Any person employed by, acting as an agent for, or 
representing: 

U. S. Air Force 

Military Airlift Command 

Central Intelligence Agency 

National Security Council 

President's Intelligence Oversight Board 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Geneva Commercial Registry 

Military Reutilization and Material Supply Department, 
Portugal 

National Armaments Directorate, Portugal 

Nugen-Hand Bank, Australia 

Overseas Defense Corp. 

Department of Defense 

Lloyd's of London 

any agency, division, or department of the United States 
government with responsibility for foreign relations, 
for intelligence activities, or for manufacturing, 
storing, shipping, selling, transferring, monitoring, 
or accounting for any arms, munitions, or military 
personnel 

any agency, division, or department of the government of. 



355 



any instrumentality of, or any national of, or person 
located in Iran, Israel, Switzerland, Panama, Bermuda, 
Liberia, Lichtenstein, the Cayman Islands, Portugal, 
Denmark, Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Costa Rica, 
Nicaragua, Honduras, or Guatemala 

Any of the following entities, or any entity whose name is 
as listed, but followed by Inc., Corp., Corporation, Ltd., 
Co., Company, or SA. , doing business in any location 
whatever: 

ACE 

Airmach, Inc. 

Albon Values 

Alpha Serivces, S.A. 

Amalgamated Commercial Enterprises, Inc. 

American Marketing and Consulting, Inc. 

American National Management Corporation 

Baggett Transportation Company 

CSF 

CSF Investments Ltd. 

CSFR Inv. Ltd. 

Chester Co. 

Compagnie de Services Fiduciares SA 

Corporate Air Services, Inc. 

Dataguard International 

Defex - Portugal 

Dolmy Business, Inc. 

EAST Inc. 

EATSCO 

Eagle Aviation Services and Transportation 

Egyptian American Transport Services, Inc. 

Energy Resources International 

Fifteenth of September League 

Gulf Marketing Consultants 

Hyde Park Holdings 

Hyde Park Square Corporation 

I. B. C. 

IDEA 

Intercontinental Technology 

International Research and Trade 

Kisan 

Lake Resources Corp. 

Lake Resources, Inc. 

Lilac Associates 

Maule Air, Inc. 

Missurasata 

NRAF Inc. 

National Defense Council Foundation 

National Liberation Army 

N. S. I. 

Nicaraguan Democratic Force (FDN) 

Nicaraguan Democratic Union 

Nicaraguan Development Council 



356 



Nicaraguan Freedom Fund, Inc. 

Nicaraguan Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARM) 

Project Democracy 

Queen Shipping 

R. M. Equipment Co. 

Revolutionary Democratic Alliance (ARDE) 

S & S Trading Corp. 

SOME Aviation 

Secord Associates 

Southern Air Transport, Inc. 

Southern Bloc Opposition (BOS) 

Stanford Technology, Inc. 

Stanford Technology Trading, Inc 

Stanford Technology Trading Associates, Inc. 

Systems Services International 

Trans World Arms Inc. 

Udall Corporation 

Udall Research Corporation 

Udall Resources, Inc., S.A. 

United Nicaraguan Opposition (UNO) 



357 



OTTRAVEL 

8206 LEESBURG PIKE/SUII£.2fl2iy'ENNA. VA 22180 
STANFORD TECHNOLOGY TRADING GRP INT " 
ATTNiMS SHIRLEY NAPIER 
6615 WESTWOOD CENTER OR 
VIENNA VA 22180 



NAPIER/SHIRLEY 



II2IJQ2QII 



29 APR 66 - TUESDAY 
EASTERN 197 SPCL CLASS 
LV: WASH/NATIONAL 507P 
ARi MIAMI 727P 

DINNER 
SEATS 17 C AND 17B CONFIRMED 



NONSTOP 



CONFIRMED 



NATIONAL 
PICKUP-MIAMI 



1 STANDARD SEDAN 

727PM EA197 DR0P-30APR 

CONFIRMATION-0219727120 



CONFIRMED 



30 APR 86 - WEDNESDAY 
TOUR 



OUT OF TOWN OR FOR EMERGENCY RESERVATIONS 
ON WEEKENDS. .HOLIDAYS. .OR AFTER NORMAL 
BUSINESS HOURS - CALL 1-800-643-9860 



COMPARED TO THE FULL FARE THIS REPRESENTS A SAVINGS OF • 161.00 



TICKET NUMBER/S« 
NAPIER /SHIRLEY 



76312S4325 CARD 



129.00 



AIR TRANSPORTATION 



119.44 TAX 9.56 TTL 

SUB TOTAL 

CREDIT CARD PAYMENT 
AMOUNT DUE 



129.00 
129.00 
129.00- 
.00 




703 7900460 



358 



8206 LEESBURG PtKE/SUITE 202/VIENNA. VA 22 1 80 



STANFORB TECHNOLOGY TRAOINO ORP INT 
ATTNiMS SHIRLTV NAPIER 
6613 WESTUOGO CENTER OR 
VIENNA VA 22160 



CEP ^ 1966 



Wie 



ACCOUNT! 300 



•82? 



23 SEP 66 - TUESDAY 
TWA 690 8PCL CLASS 

LVi UASH/OULLES S90P 
ARi GENEVA 940A 

OIM>4ER-8NACK 



ONE STOP 

ARRIVAL DATE-24 SEP 



CONFIRMED 



TUA 

LVt OENEVA 

ARi »ASH/0ULL£3 



OPEN 8PCL CLASS 



24 HR EMRONCY NMR 600-645-9860 /NY STATE 800-732-9639 
♦•♦THANK'YOU FOR BOOKING BT TRAVEL. 
CHANGES COULD RESULT IN HIGHER FARE 



TICKET NUMBER/Si 
NAPIER/SHIRLEY A 



AIR TRANSPORTATION 



7632493857 



CARD 



2056.00 TAX 6.00 TTL 
SUB TOTAL 

CREDIT CARD PAYMENT 
AMOUNT DUE 



2064.00 



2064.00 
2064.00 
2064.00- 
.00 



703-790-0460 



CUSTOMER ITINERARY 



i 



359 



v:R30921.0 
Kl/sjg 



t)5iCll/i?- 



2 

3 
4 

5 

J 

^ il 

7 

8 
9 

10 
1] 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



M ' 
InrDJ 



UNCLASSITJED. 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF BARBARA NEWINGTON 

Washington, D. C. 
Tuesday, May 12, 1987 

Deposition of BARBARA NEWINGTON, called for examination! 

pursuant to notice of deposition, at the offices of the 

Senate Select Committee, Suite 901, Hart Senate Office 

Building, at 10:02 a.m. before KAREN ILSEMANN, a Notary 

Public within and for the District of Columbia, when were 

present : 

W. THOMAS McGOUGH, JR., ESQ. 

Associate Counsel 

United State Senate Select 

Committee on Secret Military 

Assistance to Iran and the 

Nicaraguan Opposition 

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ. 
KENNETH BUCK, ESQ. 
Staff Counsel 
United States House of 

Representatives Select 

Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions 

With Iran 




'Ar 



proiriiions of LO. 12336 
Hriu>, National Security Council 



UNCLASSIFIED 



-- continued 



Ace-Federal Reporters. Inc. 



360 



UHtUSSlfltO 



1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 
2 



RICHARD A. MORGAN, ESQ. 
JOHN B. REARDEN, JR., ESQ. 
Winthrop, Stimson, Putnam 
& Roberts 

4 460 Summer Street 
Stamford, Connecticut 06901 

5 On behalf of the Deponent. 



ALSO PRESENT: 



VICTOR ZANGLA 
Associate Staff Member 

8 United States House of 
Representatives Select 

9 Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions 
With Iran 



UNCLASSIRED 



ArP.FpnPRAi Rfportprc; \\jr 



361 



WlASSIflED 



2.1 



1 
2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
10 
11 
12 ' 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 



C N T E N T S 



Barbara Newington 

by Mr. McGough 

by Mr. Horgan 

by Mr. Fryman 

by Mr. McGough 



NUMBER 
Exhibit 1 
Exhibit 2 
Exhibit 3 
Exhibit 4 
Exhibit 5 
Exhibit 6 
Exhibit 7 
Exhibit 8 
Exhibits 9 and 10 



EXHIBITS 



UNCUSSIRED 



Ace-Federal Reportfr<; Fm*- 



EXAMI NATION 



4 
83 
85 

101 



IDENTIFIED 
16 
34 
35 
52 
56 
63 
63 
69 
102 



362 



9210 01 01 

1 <i 1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

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PROCEEDINGS 

MR. HORGAN: For the record, Mrs. Barbara 
Newington is appearing here today pursuant to the House 
Select Committee's subpoena dated February 24, 1987 and 
Judge Robinson's immunity order No. 87-0158 dated May 4, 
1987, and pursuant to Senate Select Committee dated 
March 23, 1987 and Judge Robinson's immunity order 
No. 87-163 dated May 5, 1987. 

You may proceed . 

MR. MC GOUGH: Thank you. 

Mrs. Newington, good morning. My name is Tom 
McGough. We are going to swear you in a moment, but first 
let me explain who we are sitting here at the table. 

As you know, there is a joint investigation being 
conducted by a Senate Select Committee and a House Select 
Committee. I am Associate Counsel with the Senate Select 
Committee. 

Seated to my right is Mr. Thomas Fryman, Mr. Vic 
Zangla, and Mr. Ken Buck, all of whom are in various 
capacities with the House Select Committee. We are taking 
the deposition jointly to spare you making another trip to 
Washington, as has been our practice so far. 



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I will be asking most of the questions. If at any 
point you have any questions or don't understand a question 
that I direct to you, just stop me and I will be glad to try 
to clarify it for you. 

Your counsel has provided to us the records I have 
here, pursuant to the subpoena. If you feel there is a 
record or something that might refresh your recollection, 
feel free to ask me and we'll try to dig it out and let you 
take a look at it. 

With that in mind, why don't we swear the witness 
and go from there? 
Whereupon, 

BARBARA NEWINGTON 
was called as a witness and, having first been duly sworn by 
the notary public, was examined and testified as follows: 
EXAMINATION 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Mrs. Newington, let me start by asking you just 
some' general background questions. 

What is your present home address? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 G r e e n w i c h , 
And how long have you resided at that address? 



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A Thirty-three or four years. 



Do you have an office address or any other 

principal residence? 

A No. 

Are you employed in any remunerative capacity at 
this point? 

A No. 

I understand that you are a widow. 

A Yes . 

What was your husband's name? 

A John Newington. 

When did he pass away? 

A In 1979. 

I believe counsel has produced copies for us, 
copies of tax returns for 1984 and 1985 that reflect a scial 
security number of 

Is that, as best you recollect, your social 
security number? 

A That's correct. 

We are here to discuss contributions that were 
made to various organizations affiliated with a man named 
Carl "Spitz" Channell and certain other people that worked 



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with or about him. 

Let me go about back a little bit, however, and 
ask you initially about an organization called Western Goals 
and how you first became affiliated or aware of that 
organization. So let's start at the beginning of your 
connection with Western Goals. 

A This was about 1978 when it was formed. My 
husband formed it with Congressman Lawrence MacDonald. 
That's when it began. 

At the time it was formed, did your husband have 
any official capacity or title with Western Goals? 
A No 

Did there come a time when you took on an official 
capacity? 

A Only as a member of the Advisory Board. 
When did you become a member of the Advisory 
Board? 

A In 1979. 

Are you still affiliated or on the Advisory Board 
of Western Goals? 
A No. 
When did you step down or sever your connection 



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1 with that organization? 

2 A When the Congressman died in the air crash, 

3 Western Goals just fell apart, so that I was supporting it 

4 for a couple of years just to keep it going. And then when 

5 Mr. Channell came into the picture, he showed interest in 

6 taking it over as we were looking for a leader to carry it 

7 on, and so he took it over in about 1985. 

8 Did you continue your affiliation with Western 

9 Goals after Mr. Channell took it over? 

10 A Just for about a year; yes. 

11 So I'm just trying to count a year ahead. Can we 

12 say that you severed ties or moved away from Western Goals 

13 sometime in 1986? 

14 A Yes. 

15 What did you understand the purpose of Western 

16 Goals to be? 

17 " A It was to promote and further the principles of 

18 democracy and to strengthen and to rebuild these principles 

19 so that totalitarianism would be impossible in this 

20 country. 

21 Am I correct in saying that Western Goals was a 

22 tax-exempt organization? 




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A That's correct. 

Can you give me an example of some of the projects 
that Western Goals did in the course of its existence? 

A It published pamphlets on the subject of the 
Constitution and documentaries on to g rriaw . Anything that 
would get it before the public's eye, media and so forth. 

Can you give me an estimate of what Western Goals' 
annual budget was? 

A It was probably around $90,000 a year. 

Did you support Western Goals financially? 

A Yes. Not solely, but a substantial contributor; 
yes . 

Q Did you continue that financial support after 
Mr. Channell took over Western Goals? 

A In a very minor way. 

Can you tell me when you first met Mr. Channell? 

A Around February of 1985. 

And in what context did you meet him? 

A I had been familiar with his organization and he 
had heard of me, I guess, through Western Goals and asked me 
to have an appointment to meet him in New York City. 

Q Had he at that time assumed control of Western 




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1 ti 1 Goals? 

2 A No. 

3 You said that you had been familiar with his 

4 organization. 

5 Which organization did you associate him with? 

6 A The American Conservative Trust. 

7 How did you become familiar with American 

8 Conservative Trust? 

9 A Former years, during the time my husband was 

10 alive, we contributed to congressional races, conservative 

11 congressional races through their organization. 

12 So you had made contributions to ACT before you 

13 had personally met Mr. Channell? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Q VJho requested the meeting with Mr. Channell 

16 initially? Did he suggest it to you, or did you suggest it 

17 to him? 

18 A He arranged it. He called me and made the date. 

19 And did you in fact meet with him? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q And where did that meeting take place? 

22 A At the Plaza in New York City. 



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1 As you recollect, that was in February of 1985? 

2 A That's correct. 

3 Was anyone else with Mr. Channell at that time at 

4 that meeting? 

5 A (Nods in the negative.) 

6 Q I guess you answered no to that answer. 

7 If you can recall at that first meeting, did 

8 Mr. Channell describe to you the organizations with which he 

9 was then affiliated? 

10 A No. 

11 What did you discuss at that meeting? 

12 A More about Congressman MacDonald and his books and 

13 so forth, and what his organizations were trying to 

14 accomplish. 

15 Q By his organizations, do you mean Congressman 

16 MacDonald's organizations? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Did you talk about Western Goals? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Did you discuss with Mr. Channell the prospect of 

21 his assuming some position with Western Goals? 

22 A Yes. Not at that particular meeting, but later. 



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Q Did Mr. Channell describe for you any of the 
organizations that he was then associated with, whether it 
be ACT or — 

A Not in any great length; no. 

Q Did he solicit any financial contributions from 
you at that lunch? 

A No. 

Did there come a time when Mr. Channell did in 
fact solicit money from you? 

A Yes. 

Can you put it any time frame after your February 
meeting with him? 

A It's hard to say just from follow-up sequence, but 
fairly shortly after that. 

Q Can you give me an idea when in 1985 Mr. Channell 
assumed control of Western Goals? 

A It was late 1985. 

So that he began to solicit money from you or 
contributions from you prior to the time that he actually 
took a role with Western Goals? 

A Yes. 

Q What he solicit money for? What did he ask you to 



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contribute money to? 

MR. MORGAN: At the outset? 

MR. MC GOUGH: Yes, at the outset. 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

I am trying to get an idea of how the relationship 
evolved, and I'm interested in the early phase at this 
point. 

A He was interested in putting ads in the 
newspapers, and television spots, in support of the 
Nicaraguan situation. 

Did he talk to you about where these ads would be 
aired? 

A Yes, from time to time. 

Q What did he say about that? 

A Washington newspapers. New York newspapers, 
Chicago. 

For what organization was he soliciting 
contributions? 

A It was never clear until he asked me to make a 
check out to so-and-so. I never particularly knew which 
organization was which. 

In going through your records, you ultimately made 



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1 checks out to a number of his organizations, including one 

2 called ACTSEF, American Conservative Trust State Election 

3 Fund; later Sentinel; and still later ATAC which is 

4 Anti-Terrorism American Committee; and also a number of 

5 checks made out, or contributions made to the National 

6 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, NEPL. 

7 What did you understand, if anything, about the 

8 differences among the various organizations Mr. Channel! 

9 solicited for? 

10 A I understood very little about them. 

11 Did you view them essentially as interchangeable? 

12 A Yes. And I didn't question him. 

13 In this early phase — let me put a finite point 

14 on it — did there come a time when you began to have 

15 contact with people at the National Endowment for 

16 Preservation of Liberty, NEPL, other than Mr. Channell? 

17 A No. 

18 Were you ever solicited by a man by the name of 

19 Chris Smith? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Can you tell me how you came into contact with 

22 Mr. Smith? 



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1 A He was perhaps the first contact to Channell's 

2 organizations early on, and he was the one who solicited for 

3 the conservative races in the very, very beginning. 

4 Now, you say "solicited for the conservative 

5 races." What do you mean by that? 

6 A Well, in support of the conservative congressional 

7 races. 

8 Do you associate Mr. Smith with any particular 

9 organization operated or affiliated with Mr. Channel, or do 

10 you just view him as part of the pool or organizations that 

11 he had? 

12 MR. MORGAN: And this is your understanding at the 

13 time. 

14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 

15 It wasn't clear at all what he was representing. 

16 MR. MORGAN: 

17 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

18 But you knew that he worked for Mr. Channell? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q And you also knew that he was soliciting money for 

21 political races, congressional races? 

22 A Yes. 



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^ -.i 1 Do you recall which, if any, of the organizations 

2 Mr. Smith told you to make your contributions to? 

3 A It's hard to recall. 

4 If you don't recall, that's understandable. 

5 A Yeah. There were so many different ones. 

6 Other than Mr. Channell and Mr. Smith, did anyone 

7 else associated with Mr. Channell solicit contributions from 

8 you 

9 A No. 

10 Did you have contact with anyone else at 

11 Mr. Channell's organizations? 

12 Let me give you a few names and see if it's 

13 helpful at all. Mr. Daniel Conrad. 

14 A Yes, later on. 

15 That was later? 

16 A (Nods in the affirmative.) 

17 1 imagine you did have contact with Linda Guell 

18 through Western Goals. 

19 A Yes, that's right. 

20 Did you have contact with James McLaughlin? 

21 A No. 

22 Did you have contact with Chris Littledale? 



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1 O 1 A No. 

2 There came a time in June of 1985 when you made a 

3 trip to Washington, D.C. at the invitation of the National 

4 Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty; is that right? 

5 A That's correct. 

6 Let me show you what we can mark as Deposition 

7 Exhibit No. 1, a document produced by you. And it appears 

8 to be a bill or an invoice from the Hay-Adams Hotel, noting 

9 arrival and departure on June 25th — I'm sorry; arrival on 

10 June 25, 1985 and departure on June 26th. 

11 (Deposition Exhibit No. 1 

12 identified.) 

13 (Document handed to the witness.) 

14 MR. MC GOUGH: That's probably a better copy than 

15 your counsel has, so why don't work from that? 

16 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

17 Was that, in fact, the trip that we were 

18 discussing? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Can you tell me how that trip came about, who 

21 invited you, and what the purpose was? 

22 A Yes. Mr. Channell thought he had arranged a visit 



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1 with the President and a briefing with Oliver North. 

2 What happened when you did in fact arrive in 

3 Washington, as best you can remember that? 

4 A I was met by Mr. Channell at the Hay-Adams and he 

5 took me over to the briefing, to the White House. 

6 And what occurred at the briefing or at the white 

7 House? 

8 A I met Oliver North in the National Security 

9 Council offices and he produced charts and slides and films 

10 of what was going on in Nicaragua, and just explained the 

11 situation and their needs. 

12 What did you understand the purpose to be? Why 

13 were they briefing you on this? 

14 A I really don't know why. I wasn't even thinking 

15 about that at the moment. 

16 Did you know why Mr. Channell invited you to 

17 Washington? 

18 A Just because he wanted me to be more alert as to 

19 what was happening. 

20 Had he, up to that point, solicited contributions 

21 for support of either television ads or — 

22 A Yes, up to that point. 



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For Nicaragua? 

A For Nicaragua. 

Had he solicited direct contributions to the 
contras, the Nicaraguan Democratic Resistance, at that 
point? 

A No. 

So up the point of this White House meeting, as 
far as Nicaragua was concerned, the only contributions he 
had solicited were for television advertisements. 

A That's correct. 

Now, you met with Colonel North in the National 
Security Council offices. Was anyone else present while you 
were meeting with Colonel North? 

A Mr. Miller and Mr. Channell. 

Did they actually sit in on the briefing that 
Colonel North gave you? 

A Yes. 

Was this done in Colonel North's own office, as 
best you can tell, or was it done in a conference room? 

A In a conference room. 

Did Colonel North show any displays, any maps, 
slides, lists, anything like that? 




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1 ;i 1 A Yes. 

2 What did he show you? 

3 A He showed where the airstrips were and the general 

4 problems of the soldiers and so forth. 

5 Did he discuss the needs of the Nicaraguan 

6 resistance at that point? 

7 A Yes, he did. 

8 what did he tell you that they needed? 

9 A They needed equipment and food and weapons and 

10 everything to keep them going. 

11 Did Colonel North solicit a contribution or ask 

12 you to help supply — 

13 A No. 

14 MR. HORGAN: Let him finish his question. He has 

15 a time frame in mind. 

16 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

17 " At this meeting, did he solicit you or otherwise 

18 ask you to help fulfill the needs of the Nicaraguan 

19 Resistance? 

20 A No. 

21 Q Did he make any references, either direct or 

22 indirect to Mr. Channell's ability to solicit contributions 



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1 for those purposes and provide them to the Nicaraguan 

2 Resistance? 

3 A No. 

4 Did he mention Mr. Channell's role at all? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Do you recall — you mentioned weapons as being 

7 one of the items he discussed at that briefing. 

8 Do you recall any specific kinds of weapons being 

9 discussed? 

10 A No. 

11 Do you recall whether he discussed specific prices 

12 for weapons? 

13 A No . 

14 Up until that point, had you met Colonel North 

15 before? 

16 A No. 

17 " Up until that point, had you met Mr. Miller 

18 before? 

19 A No. 

20 Was Mr. Miller there when you arrived that morning 

21 in Washington? 

22 A I believe so. 




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What did you understand Mr. Miller's role or 
assignment to be? 

A I didn't know what it was at that time. 

Do you recall how he was introduced to you? That 
is, what his affiliation was? 

A No. Just by name. 

Do you recall any mention of International 
Business Communications or IBC at that time? 

A No. 

Up until that meeting, had you ever met Ronald 
Reagan? 

A Yes. 

On how many occasions or on what occasion? 

A Well, it went back to 1964. And he came to 
Greenwich and my husband and I met him at a private party 
given for him. And that's the only time I previously 
actually met him, but we had correspondence, letters and so 
forth. 

Am I correct that one of the purposes of your trip 
to Washington in June 1985 was perhaps to meet Mr. Reagan, 
or was it just for the briefing with Colonel North? 

A It definitely was for the briefing and a 



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1 possibility of meeting with the President. 

2 What happened after the briefing? You left the 

3 I White House at that point? 

4 A Yes. 

5 While at the White House or in the National 

6 Security Office, did you meet any other government official? 

7 A No. 

8 Not John Poindexter or Robert McFarlane or any 

9 other representative of the government? 

10 A No. 

11 Where did you go after you left the briefing? 

12 A Came back to the hotel and subsequently had dinner 

13 at the hotel. 

14 Who was present at dinner? 

15 A Mr. Miller and Mr. Channell. I'm not sure about 

16 Mr. Conrad, whether he was there or not. It's possible that 

17 he was. 

18 Was the dinner held in a private room or was it 

19 out in the restaurant? 

20 A In the restaurant. 

21 What did you discuss at dinner, if you can recall? 

22 A More about the Nicaraguan situation — if I could 




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1 help in some way. 

2 Q Did they ask you to contribute to the cause of the 

3 Nicaraguan Resistance? 

4 A Not specifically that way, but generally. 

5 Can you recall how they put it generally, or give 

6 me an idea how they put it generally? 

7 A I really can't remember any particular questioning 

8 or asking me. It was just more to clue me in to the needs 

9 again. I just assumed that I knew what they wanted, but 

10 j they really didn't come out and say, I want so much money 

11 for this or that. 

12 I see. But they would refer back to the briefing 

13 that Colonel North gave you? 

14 A That's right. 

15 And you said you knew what they wanted, and what 

16 they wanted were contributions; is that right? 

17 A That's correct. 

18 Did you discuss, or did they discuss or even imply 

19 what the contributions would be used for? 

20 A Not at that time. 

21 who actually was doing the soliciting? You've got 

22 Mr. Miller and Mr. Channel there. Can you break it down as 



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between them at all? 

A Not particularly. 

MR. MORGAN: Excuse me. 

(Counsel confers with witness.) 

THE WITNESS: May I clarify my answer? 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Sure. 

A Mr. Channell was the main solicitor, always. 

Do you recall being solicited at all by 
Mr. Miller? 

A No. 

But he was present at this dinner when 
Mr. Channell was soliciting? 

A Yes. 

By the time that you had arrived at this dinner, 
had it become apparent that you were not going to be able to 
meet with Mr. Reagan on your trip to Washington? Or what 
was the status of that at that point? 

A No. There was a possibility that I would the next 
day. 

In your discussions with Mr. Channell and 
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military needs as well as non-military needs? 

A Very little about the military needs to me. It 
was more humanitarian. 

Q You say very little. Do you have a specific 
recollection of them discussing any military needs? 

A Only that they needed weapons, but it was mainly 
uniforms and food and equipment. 

And you say that they did not really solicit your 
support directly for any particular type of assistance to 
the contras at that time? 

A Not at that time. 

But you understood that they were soliciting 
contributions from you. 

A Well, you sensed that. 

Did you sense or understand what they intended to 
do with any contribution that you might give? Again, we're 
talking about the June 1985 meeting. 

A Not at that time. 

Did you meet with anyone else that evening? 
Again, this is the same evening that you had the briefing 



with Colonel North. 



Yes. 



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1 And who else was there? Who else came there, I 

2 should say. 

3 A Mr. Fischer and Mr, Channell and Mr. Miller came 

4 later that evening. 

5 Was that in the restaurant again, or where did 

6 that happen? 

7 A No. That was in the suite. 

8 And Mr. Fischer -- what was his — how was he 

9 described to you? What were you told about what he did? 

10 A I really was not told anything about him — he was 

11 just there — and that he would inform me of the protocol in 

12 a meeting with the President. 

13 And what did he tell you about the protocol? 

14 A Just that you would be ushered in and you would be 

15 ushered out. Very little. It would be brief. That's all. 

16 Did either Mr. Channell or Mr. Miller tell you 

17 what to discuss with the President or what not to discuss 

18 with the President? 

19 A No. 

20 Did they attempt to limit in any way anything you 

21 might say to Mr. Reagan? 

22 A No. 




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Did they try to give you suggestions about things 
you might say to him? 

A No. 

The next day, were there any other events, 
significant events, that you can remember on that day, the 
day that you were briefed by Colonel North? Anyone else you 
met or anyone else who imparted any information about the 
Nicaraguan Resistance? 

A No. 

What happened the next day? 

A There is some emergency that arose that morning in 
the White House, and I'm not clear as to what it was. But 
the President was not able to meet with me. 

Did you go over to the White House to wait? 

A No. It was very clear that morning that it was 
not to be. 

Did you meet with anyone that morning or that day? 

A Only Mr. Channell again. 

Did you see Mr. Miller that day, if you recall? 

A No. 

How about Colonel North? 



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1 4i 1 Did Mr. Fischer come back again by any chance? 

2 A No. 

3 In leading up to this meeting with the President, 

4 or this proposed meeting with the President, was it ever 

5 suggested to you by anyone that a contribution in a certain 

6 amount or a contribution of a certain size might enable you 

7 to meet with the President? 

8 A No. 

9 Was there any direct connection drawn between any 

10 contribution you might make or did make and the meeting with 

11 President Reagan? 

12 A No. 

13 Was that ever — I don't want to say "implied, but 

14 was there ever an indirect indication to you that that in 

15 fact was the case? 

16 A . No. 

17 Did you ever have a discussion like that, or was 

18 that information ever imparted to you at any time after the 

19 June meeting? Did you ever understand there to be a 

20 relationship between your contributions and any meeting with 

21 Ronald Reagan? 

22 A No. 





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1 ;i 1 Do you recall any specifics of your discussion 

2 with Mr. Channell on the next day? That would have been 

3 June 26, 1985. 

4 A No, because we left shortly. We went to some art 

5 galleries and we went home. 

6 Do you recall again being solicited for 

7 contributions on that day? 

8 A No. 

9 Am I correct that by the time you had this meeting 

10 in Washington, D.C., you had made a series of contributions 

11 to the American Conservative — what's called ACSEF — 

12 American Conservative State Election Fund or to NEPL. By 

13 that time you had already been making contributions to them? 

14 A Yes. 

15 Can we agree that after this trip to Washington, 

16 you made additional contributions in the next couple of 

17 months to the National Endowment for the Preservation of 

18 Liberty? 

19 A I don't know whether it was in the next couple of 

20 months or not. 

21 Did you come away from the meeting in Washington 

22 with an intention to make contributions to support the 



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Nicaraguan opposition? 

A I made no commitments outwardly, but to myself I 
did. 

When was the next time someone attempted to obtain 
a contribution for that purpose? 

A There again, I really don't know how — the time 
span — but I did contribute later on. 

This is a point of general reference in looking 
through the records supplied by counsel. Your contributions 
seem to be periodic ones; every month or every couple of 
months you would make a contribution to one of 
Mr. Channell's organizations. 

As a general matter, were those contributions made 
in response to specific appeals or were those made on the 
basis of every now and then you would find a way to make a 
contribution to them, whether they asked for it or not? 

A No. They were usually for particularly things, 
lobbying efforts. 

So they would call you up or write you a letter 
and say we need a contribution for such and such, and you 
would then essentially target your contribution to that? 
A That's right. 



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1 (Counsel confers with witness.) 

2 THE WITNESS: May I clarify that? 

3 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

4 Sure. Absolutely. 

5 A All solicitations were made by phone. No letters. 

6 MR. MORGAN: We are not aware of any letters, and 

7 your question included both. 

8 MR. MC GOUGH: That's fine. Just for the record, 

9 we have seen a lot of letters, and I wasn't attempting to 

10 indicate that there were letters. I was just trying to be a 

11 little more generic. 

12 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

13 Can you recall the first contribution you made 

14 with the intent of providing direct support to the 

15 Nicaraguan opposition? 

16 A Are you asking for the time or — 

17 I'm just asking if you recall the context in which 

18 it was made. 

19 A Only through another call from Mr. Channell, or if 

20 a specific thing was needed. 

21 Do you recall what the specific thing that was 
22 



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1 ci 1 A At one time it was to repair an airstrip. At 

2 another time it was for a reconnaissance plane. 

3 Do you ever recall Mr. Channell specifically 

4 requesting funds for military equipment or weapons? 

5 A No, 

6 Did he ever request funds that weren't targeted to 

7 any particular need of the contras? That is, you've 

8 mentioned an airstrip and you've mentioned a reconnaissance 

9 plane. 

10 Did he ever ask for funds for the general support 

11 of the contras? 

12 A No. 

13 MR. HORGAN: Excuse me one moment. 

14 (Counsel and the witness confer.) 

15 THE WITNESS: I need to clarify my answer, please. 

16 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

17 Sure. 

18 A In between specifics, there were generalities for 

19 I never knew exactly what, whether they were for ads. 

20 Again, it was all pertaining to the Nicaraguan situation. 

21 Q And you say whether they were for ads. They also 

22 might have been just for general financial support directly 



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to the contras as you understood it? 
A I guess so; yes. 

Did you ever indicate to Mr. Channell that you 
would have an objection to your contributions being used for 
military assistance? Did you ever tell him do not — or 
ensure that my contributions are not used for that? 

A No. But it never occurred to me that they would 
be used for that. 

Q There came a time in November of 1985, I believe 
November 7, when you again traveled to Washington. I 
believe at that time you did in fact meet Mr. Reagan. Am I 
right in that? 

A That's right. 

Did you make any trips that you can recall to 
Washington between June of 1985 when you did not get to see 
Mr. Reagan and November 7 of 1985 when you did? 

A No. 

To the best of your recollection, did Mr. Channell 
visit you at your home in Connecticut in that period of 
time? 

A I know he visited my home, but don't ask me just 



when. 



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How did the meeting with the President on 
November 7th come about? How did the invitation come to you 
and how was it explained to you? 

A Again on the telephone. He told me of having 
arranged the meeting and the date, the time that I should be 
there. 

Did he explain what the purpose of the meeting was 
or how it came about? 

A Just to be thanked by the President. 

Did he say thanked for what? 

A He didn't. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark this as Deposition 
Exhibit No. 2, which is a letter again from your documents, 
dated October 10, 1985 from Mr. Reagan. 

(Deposition Exhibit No. 2 
identified. ) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Do you recall receiving this letter? 

A Yes, I do. 

Q Do you know why you received the letter? It is an 
obviously an expression of gratitude. Do you associate this 
letter with any particular effort or action on your part? 



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1 A No. 

2 Were you surprised to receive the letter? 

3 A Yes . 

4 Had Mr. Channell indicated to you prior to 

5 receiving this letter, that you might receive it? 

6 A No. 

7 Did you make any connection in your own mind 

8 between Mr. Channell and the letter of October 10? 

9 1 A No. 

10 Did you make any connection in your own mind 

11 between your contributions to NEPL or Mr. Channell's 

12 organizations and the letter of October 10? 

13 A No, not at that time. 

14 Could you tell me what happened when you traveled 

15 to Washington on November 7th? 

16 (Deposition Exhibit No. 3 

17 identified.) 

18 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

19 And so you have it in front of you, let's mark 

20 this as Exhibit 3. It's a page from your appointment book, 

21 which is the basis for my November 7th statement. I hope it 

22 is correct. A page from November 1985 with the word 



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"Washington" written across November 7th. Is that right? 

A Yes, it's right. 

To the best of your recollection, is that in fact 
when your meeting with President Reagan took place? 

A Yes. 

On November 7, 1985? 

A Yes. 

Can you tell me what happened when you traveled to 
Washington? Who met you? Let's start there. 

A I believe it was Mr. Channell who met me again. 

Q And did he meet you at the airport? 

A No, at the hotel. 

Let me back up for one moment. 

The expenses for your trip to the Hay-Adams Hotel 
in June of 1985 — were you reimbursed for those or did you 
pay those out of your own pocket? 

A I had some members of my family with me and I paid 
for those. Mr. Channell paid for me. 

All right. 

And on the trip on November 7, 1985, did you 
travel alone at that point? 

A In November? 



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In November. The November trip? 
A Yes. 

MR. HORGAN: Can you repeat the question? Was she 
traveling alone? 

MR. MC GOUGH: My question is in specific regard 
to the November 1985 trip, was she traveling alone? 
THE WITNESS: Yes, I was. 

MR. HORGAN: Let me assist the witness in terms of 
her recollection. 

(Counsel and witness confer.) 
THE WITNESS: My driver brought me down. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
So you drove down to Washington. 
A And the driver's wife; yes. 

Did you again check into the Hay-Adams Hotel? 
A Yes . 

What happened that day after Mr. Channell met you 
A It was in the afternoon, and I was taken over to 
the White House and ushered into the West Gate waiting room 
and waited. And Mr. Buchanan came to usher me into the Oval 
Office. 

Did Mr. Channell accompany you over to the White 



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House? 



A I'm not sure whether tie accompanied me or he was 
there waiting for me. I'm vague on that, but he was there. 

Was anyone else with Mr. Channell? Was Mr. Miller 
there or Mr. Fischer? 

A No. 

So you were met by Mr. Buchanan. And what 
happened at that point? 

A He shook my hand and said he was glad to meet me. 
We had to wait a while, and then I was taken in to see the 
President. 

Can you tell me what you recollect about your 
jneeting with the President? 

A It was very brief. There were photographers 
around. We just stood shaking hands and exchanging 
thank-you's. And I remember more what I said to him than 
what he said to me. 

I said to him that I thought he had brought God 
back into the White House. And he said, "I've been talking 
to him a lot lately and I intend to take him to the summit 
with me." 

Then I felt that he really had nothing more to say 



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1 and so I went outf and didn't wait to be ushered out, which 

2 was not right. 

3 Did the subject of Central America or Nicaragua 

4 come up at all? 

5 A No. 

6 Did President Reagan acknowledge in any way — did 

7 he say thank you, or thank you for your efforts on behalf of 

8 something, or make any statements like that? 

9 A No. 

10 What happened after you left President Reagan? 

11 A Went back to the hotel — 

12 Q Let me stop you there. 

13 While you were at the White House, did you see any 

14 other government officials? Did you see Colonel North or 

15 anyone other than Pat Buchanan? 

16 A No, not at that time. 

17 What happened after you went back — you went back 

18 to the hotel with Mr. Channell? 

19 A Yes. 

20 What happened when you went back to the hotel? 

21 A May I speak to counsel for a minute, please? 
22 



Sure. 



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1 (Counsel and witness confer.) 

2 THE WITNESS: Going back to your question, I'm not 

3 sure whether it was this visit or another one, but there was 

4 a point when I saw his offices. 

5 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

6 Mr. Channell's offices? 

7 A Mr. Channell's offices. And he took me over to 

8 the man who created the ads and so forth, Mr. Goodman, and I 

9 met him briefly. And it may have been at that time — I'm 

10 not absolutely certain. 

11 The offices that you visited, were they up on 

12 Capitol Hill in a townhouse, or were they down on 

13 Pennsylvania Avenue in an office building? 

14 A No, they were in a townhouse. 

15 While you visited his offices, did you meet 

16 anyone else at this organization if you can recall? 

17 A Only his secretary. 

18 Was that Angie? 

19 A Angie. 

20 Setting aside that trip to the townhouse and the 

21 Goodman incident, after you left the White House with 

22 Mr. Channel, I believe you said, eventually you got back to 



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the hotel. 

Did you dine with him at that point or discuss 
anything with him? 

A We had dinner. 

Was anyone else present at dinner? 

A I believe Dan Conrad. I believe that's all. Just 
Dan, Mr. Channell, and myself. 



Do you recall anything that was discussed at that 



time? 



A Nothing specific. 

MR. HORGAN: Excuse me one moment. 
(Counsel and witness confer.) 

THE WITNESS: To clarify that, I think Mr. Miller 
was present, too. I'm never quite sure. He drifted in and 
out. I'm never quite sure whether he's with us or not. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Did you ever come to an understanding as to what 
Mr. Miller's role was? 

A I never knew what his role was at that time. 
You say you never knew at that time. Other than 
the publicity that's come out in recent months, did you ever 
in your relationship with Mr. Channel understand what his 



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role was? 

A When I read it in the paper. 
At that dinner, was one of the topics of 
discussion the needs of the Resistance fighters in 
Nicaragua? 

A Would you repeat that again? 
Sure. 

At the dinner with Mr. Conrad and Mr. Channell and 
perhaps Mr. Miller, did you or they discuss the needs of the 
contras, the Nicaraguan Democratic Resistance? 
A Yes. I'm sure we touched on it. 

Do you recall any specifics of that conversation? 
A No. 

Did you recall being solicited for a contribution 
or contributions at that dinner? 

A Not right at the dinner. 

Were you solicited shortly after the dinner? 
A I'm sure; another phone call. 

Q Do you recall at that dinner — let's go back to 
the dinner — any specific needs of the contras being 
mentioned? 

A I'm not sure whether it was at that time that they 



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9210 03 07 

i ci 1 mentioned the plane. I don't believe there were any 

2 specifics. 

3 Did you stay in Washington overnight or did you 

4 return that evening? 

5 A Stayed overnight. 

6 Did you meet with anyone the next day? 

7 A There was a breakfast with Colonel North. I'm not 

8 sure whether it was that meeting or the next one. But 

9 anyway, it was a very brief breakfast. 

10 What was discussed at that breakfast, if you 

11 recall? 

12 A He was telling me how they found their home in 

13 Virginia and telling me about his wife and children. 

14 Was Mr. Channell present at that breakfast as 

15 well? 

16 A Yes. 

17 How about Mr. Miller, if you recall? 

18 A Not Mr. Miller. I think it was Mr. Conrad. 

19 Q Did Colonel North discuss the needs or the 

20 position of the contras at that breakfast? 

21 A No. 

22 Q Did Colonel North solicit any contributions at 



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9210 03 08 

1 i 1 that breakfast? 

2 A No. 

3 As best you can recall, did Mr. Channell — did 

4 anyone at that breakfast discuss Central America, Nicaragua, 

5 or the needs of the contras? 

6 A No. 

7 Did anyone solicit any contributions at that 

8 breakfast? 

9 A No. 

10 What is the next contact after that breakfast? 

11 Did you return to Connecticut, or were there any other 

12 events that day that you remember? 

13 A No. I went right home. 

14 What was the next contact you recall receiving 

15 from Mr. Channel or his organizations? 

16 A What? Requests? 

17 Yes. Any requests, any telephone calls, any 

18 meetings with Mr. Channell? The next contact you might have 

19 had. 

20 A It could have been a visit up to Greenwich, 

21 showing me ads for the newspapers again. It's all so 

22 confusing. 





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9210 03 09 

1 i 1 All right. You continued after your meeting with 

2 President Reagan, did you not, to make contributions to 

3 NEPL? 

4 A Yes. 

5 And in November and December of 1985, you made 

6 very sizable donations of stock to NEPL; do you recall that? 

7 A Yes . 

8 Each of them was in the amount of approximately 

9 $500,000 and totaled over a million dollars. Is that right? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Do you recall what those contributions were for? 

12 A I think that was for the plane and the airstrip. 

13 Do you recall how the plane and the airstrip first 

14 came to your attention? 

15 A I think it was mentioned at the briefing, but not 

16 specifically till later on. 

17 • Do you remember who specifically brought it back 

18 up again? 

19 A Mr. Channell. 

20 Do you remember at what meeting or in what context 

21 he brought it back up again? 

22 A That was another phone call. 



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Just for point of clarification, when you refer to 
the briefing, you refer to Colonel North's briefing in June? 

A Yes. 

You say you believe it was a phone call in which 
Mr. Channell resurrected the airstrip and the spotter plane 
again? 

A Yes. 

Did he talk in terms of specific amounts necessary 
to repair the airstrip or buy the spotter plane? 

A Yes. But I don't remember the amounts at this 
point. 

Do you remember whether your contributions were 
going to be enough, too much, or not enough? Were you going 
to be the one solely repairing the airstrip, or were other 
people needed as well? 

A No. I think the plane was me, but the airstrip 
Was just a part of it. 

Do you recall any discussion of where the airstrip 
was located? 

A No. 

Do you recall the country in which it was located? 



A No. 



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Do you know whether it was located on what has 
become known as the northern or the southern front? 

A I really don't know. 

Are you now, or were you then at all familiar with 
the distinction between the northern front and the southern 
front in Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall if Mr. Miller was present at the 
breakfast you had with Colonel North? 

A No. 

You don't recall, or he was not present? 

A He was not there. 

Was Colonel North present at the dinner the night 
before with Mr. Channell? 

A _ No. 

So that the only time you recall meeting Colonel 
North on that trip to Washington was at the breakfast the 
next morning? 

A That's correct. 

MR. HORGAN: Tom, let me see if I can clarify 
chronology perhaps. 

(Counsel and the witness confer.) 



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THE WITNESS: To clarify, there was a meeting 
after dinner in my suite with Colonel North. 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Oh, that's where I got off the track. 

All right. Tell me about the meeting in the suite 
after dinner. 

A He came to bring me a gift from the President that 
I dashed out and didn't receive when I was there, and also 
to talk more about the needs of the contras. 

Can you tell me, first of all, what was the gift? 

A The gift was a glass plaque. On one side of it it 
read, etched in the President's handwriting: "There is no 
limits to what a man can do or where he can go if he does 
not care who gets the credit." 

And what do you recall about Colonel North's 
discussions at that evening meeting? 

A Just more about the contra situation. He wanted 
to know about my meeting. 

He asked you about your meeting with President 
Reagan? 

A Yes. 

And did he discuss, if you recall, did he discuss 



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the airstrip and/or the spotter plane -- 
A No. 
— at that meeting? 

Did he discuss the needs of the contras? 
A Yes. 

And what types of needs did he describe at that 
meeting? 

A More of the same. Food and equipment and weapons. 
MR. HORGAN: Excuse me one moment. 
(Counsel and witness confer.) 

THE WITNESS: Clarifying this answer, he did bring 
out a map to show the situation in Nicaragua and most likely 
— it's just not clear to me — but most likely he did speak 
about the airstrip. 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Q But you don't recollect where that airstrip might 
have been located? 
A No. 

The plane that we have been talking about, was it 
ever identified as a Majgi aircraft? Have you ever heard 



that term? 



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1 Just what you call a reconnaissance plane or a 

2 spotter plane? 

3 A That's correct. 

4 Who was present at this meeting in your suite 

5 after dinner? 

6 A It was Mr. Channell, Colonel North, and I believe 

7 it was Dan Conrad. 

8 Could Mr. Miller have been there? 

9 A I am quite sure he was not there. 

10 Did Colonel North solicit any contributions or any 

11 funds for the contras at that meeting? 

12 A No. 

13 Did Colonel North make any indication that 

14 Mr. Channell could provide the needs, the contributions of 

15 Mr. Channell might provide for the needs of the contras? 

16 A No . 

17 Other than the meeting with the President, the 

18 meetings you have described so far, were there any other 

19 meetings during that trip to Washington that you recall? 

20 A No. 

21 Mrs. Newington, the records that you've turned 

22 over to us indicate — this is just as a general matter. 



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1 subject to check by Mr. Horgan — that between October of 

2 1985 and about March of 1986, in that six-month period that 

3 straddled the New Year, you made contributions to NEPL of 

4 approximately about $1 million -- about a million and a half 

5 in stock and another $500,000 or so in cash or in checks. I 

6 won't say cash. 

7 Is that about it? 

8 MR. HORGAN: That's close? 

9 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

10 So about a million and a half dollars in stocks 

11 and about $500,000 in cash. 

12 Was all that to be devoted, as you recall, to the 

13 repair of the airstrip or the purchase of a spotter plane? 

14 A Oh, no. 

15 For what other purposes were you contributing? 

16 A This was, I am quite sure, during the lobbying 

17 efforts for the Congress as well as continuous ads and 

18 television spots. 

19 Can you, in your own mind, separate out what 

20 portions of those contributions — with the parameters I 

21 gave you — what portions of the contributions — we're 

22 talking about a total contribution in the neighborhood of 





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$2 million over the space of about six months. 

Can you, in your own mind, sort out how much of 
that was devoted to the contras and how much was devoted to 
television ads? 
A No, 

Does that help you at all fix the amount they were 
requesting for the airfield and for the spotter plane? 
A Not really. 

(Deposition Exhibit No. 4 
identified . ) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Mrs. Newington, Deposition Exhibit 4 is a letter 
from Oliver North dated January 24, 1986, among the 
documents you provided to us 

Do you recall receiving that letter? 
A Yes . 

Between November 7, 1986 — 1985, excuse me -- the 
evening meeting and the breakfast during the trip to 
Washington and your receipt of this letter, had you had any 
further communications with Colonel North? 

A Only in the phone calls. I was requested by 
Mr. Channell once in a while to call him to cheer him up and 



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1 to find out how things were going. I may have done that 

2 maybe twice. 

3 And these phone calls, when 'yo'J called to cheer 

4 him up or find out how things were going, did you discuss 

5 Nicaragua or any similar situations? 

6 A No. 

7 Obviously the letter is expressing its 

8 appreciation for your support and your efforts, and those of 

9 the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

10 If you go to the third paragraph, in particular 

11 the last two sentences in that paragraph, it reads: "In the 

12 weeks ahead, we will commence a renewed effort to make our 

13 assistance to the Democratic Resistance Forces even more 

14 effective. Once again your support will be essential." 

15 How did you understand you were to provide your 

16 support to the Nicaraguan Resistance? 

17 A There was no particular emphasis on anything that 

18 I can recall. 

19 Did you understand that your support will be 

20 essential to be a reference to the support that you had 

21 previously given to the National Endowment for the 

22 Preservation of Liberty? 



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Yes. 



And in speaking of continued support, did you 
understand that to mean that your continued support of the 
National Endowment would be essential? 

A Yes. 

There came a time in, I believe, early 1986, did 
there not, when Mr. Channell had your phones swept for 
surveillance devices; is that right? 

A That's right. 

Can you tell me how that came about? 

A He just suggested that it might be a good idea for 
me to have it done. I really didn't question why he thought 
it would be, but if he wanted to do it, it was all right 
with me. 

Did it seem like an unusual request from your 
standpoint? 

A Yes . 

Had you ever had it done before? 

A No. 

Have you ever had it done since? 

A No. 

Can you recall anything further about the 




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conversation as to why it was necessary to sweep your 
phones? 

A It really was not gone into. Just a suggestion. 

What brought it about? Was there any meeting that 
was coming up, a visit by anyone, or did this just come out 
of the blue? 

A Out of the blue. 

Had you at that point been having telephone 
conversations with Colonel North? 

A Only the ones that I referred to. 

Did he indicate that he was doing this at the 
suggestion of anyone? That he was sweeping your phones at 
the suggestion of anyone? 

A No. 

And the National Endowment for the Preservation of 
Liberty did in fact pay for the sweep, did it not? 

A Yes . 

MR. HORGAN: In terms of your last question, 
Mrs. Newington learned who paid for it recently. She did 
not really have any understanding at the time. 
BY MR. MC GOCJGH: 

You were not responsible for paying for it; is 




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1 that right? 

2 A That's right. 

3 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark this as Exhibit No. 5. 
* (Deposition Exhibit No. 5 

5 identified. ) 

6 MR. MC GOUGH: Would you care to take a break for 

7 a few minutes? 

8 MR. HORGAN: Maybe in a little while. She is not 

9 used to this. 

10 MR. MC GOUGH: I understand. As soon as you feel 

11 that might be helpful, just let me know. 

12 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

13 Now, we have marked Exhibit 5, which is again a 

14 document produced by your counsel and it reflects a 

15 transaction at the Hay-Adams Hotel in Washington on 

16 February 28, 1986. 

17 • Did you in fact visit Washington and stay at the 

18 Hay-Adams at that time? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 And can you recall the purpose of that trip? 

21 A That was the second visit to the President. 

22 How did that come about? 




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1 A That again was arranged by Mr. Channell. 

2 Did he explain why it had been arranged? 

3 'a No. 

4 He, in effect, invited you to come down and attend 

5 this — or visit the President; is that right? 

6 A That's right. 

7 Can you tell me what happened when you traveled 

8 to Washington? 

9 A This time I came down by train with members of my 

10 family. 

11 MR. HORGAN: Bear with me a moment. 

12 (Counsel and the witness confer.) 

13 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I came down on the train 

14 with my sister, brother-in-law, and my daughter. 

15 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

16 And who met you, if you recall? 

17 A Mr. Smith. Cliff Smith. 

18 1 note on there that there is an Amtrak entry. 

19 that might be the train tickets. 

20 Where did Mr. Smith take you? 

21 A To the hotel. 

22 And had you met Cliff Smith prior to that? 




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2 It was the first time you met him? 

3 I A (Nods in the affirmative.) 

4 But he had corresponded with you before that; is 

5 that right? 

6 A On the phone; yes. 

7 What happened when you got to the hotel? Was 

8 there anyone else there? 

9 A Not at that moment, but eventually I was met by 

10 Mr. Channell. 

11 What happened next? 

12 A I believe that was the afternoon that I went to 

13 see the President. 

14 Can you tell me how that came about? 

15 A Yes. I think Mr. Channell took me over to the 

16 White House again and I met Colonel North at that time. He 

17 was planning to take me in. There was a long wait before I 

18 could see the President. He was very, very busy. 

19 And Colonel North couldn't wait any longer and he 

20 departed. And I went in, but I don't think anybody took me 

21 in this time. I just started to go in, and it was a very 

22 brief meeting, and we exchanged thank-you's again. And he 




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handed me a jar of jelly beans and said to give this to my 
daughter, and I handed him a book and said I had something 
for him to give him some strength. It was a little 
spiritual book of some kind. And that was it. 

You say you exchanged thank-you's. What did you 
thank President Reagan for, if you remember? 

A Just for taking the time to see me. 

Do you recall what he thanked you for? 

A Again, nothing. 

Did the subject of Central America come up at all? 

A No. 

When you were waiting with Colonel North, do you 
recall what discussions you had with him? 

A We talked about many surface things; nothing about 
the problems. 

Nothing that you recall about the contras or 
N"icaragua? 

A No. 

What happened after you left the President's 
office? 

A It must have been dinner time again. We went back 
to the hotel and had dinner again. I think this was with 



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Mr. Miller, Mr. Channell, and Mr. Conrad. We all had dinnei 
again together. 

Did Colonel North appear that evening? 

A Not that evening; no. 

What was the subject of discussion that evening, 
if you can recall? 

A Nothing terribly terribly important as I can 
recall. 

Did you discuss Nicaragua, if you remember? 

A We must have touched on it, of course. I really 
can't remember specifics. 

Do you recall any specific needs of the contras 
being discussed at that meeting? 

A I would assume that there must have been. 

But you don't recall specifics? 

A I just don't recall. 

Did you have any further meetings after dinner 
that evening? 

A No. 

How about the next day? 

A This is where I think the breakfast came in, the 
breakfast with Colonel North. It was not the time before, 



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1 but I think it was this time. 

2 And the breakfast you described before is the one 

3 you at first took place on November 8th, after your first 

4 meeting with the President, but now you think it took place 

5 this time? 

6 A I believe that's correct. 

7 And I believe we covered the topics that were 

8 discussed. Does the change in time change your recollection 

9 of what was discussed? 

10 A Just one thing we may have added to that now is 

11 his visit; coming up to visit because he was very tired and 

12 exhausted, and Mr. Channell had suggested he might like to 

13 come up to Greenwich to rest. 

14 I do think we discussed that. 

15 Mrs. Newington, the records you gave to us 

16 indicate — I am not going to mark this as exhibit — but 

17 indicate on March 27, 1986 you made a contribution of 

18 $142,000. And you can look at the check just to refresh 

19 your recollection. 

20 (Document handed to the witness.) 

21 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

22 Was that the check, or was that — if you 



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recall — the check that was targeted for spotter or 
reconnaissance planes? 

A It could very well have been, but I am not 
absolutely certain. 

You can't, as you sit here today, be certain 
whether or not that is the — 

A Not really. 

Do you know how long before you made a 
contribution for the planes, you were first advised of the 
need? Was this something they told you about and you kept 
in the back of your mind for a while until you made a 
contribution; or did they tell you about it and you turned 
around and made a contribution? 

A I think they told me and shortly thereafter I 
contributed. 

Let's move, if we could, to Colonel North's visit 
to your home. The records that have been provided to us 
seem to indicate that that took place in early May of 1986. 
And let me show you the records. 

I am citing for that, the first we will mark as a 
deposition exhibit. This is not a record that you provided 
to us. Deposition Exhibit 6 is a telephone message, written 




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1 ^i 1 at the offices of NEPL, dated May 2, 1986, that in the lower 

2 left-hand corner includes directions to your home. 

3 (Deposition Exhibit No. 6 

4 identified.) 

5 MR. MC GOUGH: And then the calendar we have from 

6 your records — 

7 MR. HORGAN: Just for my information — this is 

8 the first time I've seen the document — is this a telephone 

9 message to someone that you could identify? 

10 MR. MC GOUGH: The telephone message appears to be 

11 to Angela from Mrs. Newington. And it's giving directions 

12 to Mrs. Newington 's home. 

13 This is a document that will be Exhibit 7 from 

14 your files, Mrs. Newington. 

15 (Deposition Exhibit No. 7 

16 identified.) 

17 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

18 And if you will look at Saturday, May 3rd, and 

19 Sunday, May 4th — although the copy is not very good -- 

20 that appears to say North. 

21 Are we correct in our assumption that Colonel 

22 North's visit to your home took place on or about November 



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3rd and 4th — I'm sorry, I mean May 3rd and 4th of 1986? 

A Yes. 

Can you tell me how the idea for that visit first 
came about, whose idea it was? 

A Well, as I mentioned, Mr. Channell having been to 
ray house — we have a pool — he thought it might be a 
restful spot for him to come and just have a get-away. We 
didn't know when it was going to happen. I talked about it 
for quite a while. 

How much notice do you recall receiving as to this 
visit? Was this something that was planned weeks in 
advance? 

A Probably about a week in advance. 

Had it been scheduled on other occasions and 
postponed, or the first time it was scheduled did it 
actually happen? 

A No. The first time it was scheduled. 

Who attended the weekend? 

A Colonel North, his wife and two children, 
Mr. Channell, Mr. Miller, and Mr. Conrad. 

Q Did Mr. Channell, Mr. Miller, and Mr. Conrad bring 
any family members, spouses or friends with them? 




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1 A No. 

2 Do you recall how each of those people traveled 

3 and arrived at your house? 

4 A Yes. Colonel North and his family came up by 

5 plane to Westchester Airport and I picked them up and took 

6 them to my house . 

7 Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad came together. I 

8 believe they came up on their own airplane. And then 

9 Mr. Miller arrived separately. 

10 And you say Colonel North came up by airplane. 

11 Did he come up by commercial air carrier? 

12 A I think it was a private plane. I couldn't be 

13 absolutely certain about that. It was at an odd hour, and I 

14 think it was a private plane. 

15 Do you know who supplied the private plane? 

16 A No. 

17 " Did you supply the private plane? 

18 A No. 

19 MR. MC GOUGH: That's probably a more direct way. 

20 MR. HORGAN: I did not either. 

21 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

22 Q Did you have any understanding with Colonel North 



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or with Mr. Channell as to who would pay for this weekend -- 
expenses and that sort of thing? 

A I had no idea. 

When you say Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad came up 
in their plane — I think that was the way you put it — do 
you know whether they came in a private plane or by 
commercial carrier? 

A No, by commercial. LaGuardia. 

When did the group arrive? Was it on Friday or 
was it on Saturday? 

A Very late Saturday night. 

When you say very late Saturday night, do you 
recall what time? 

A It must have been about 8 o'clock because we 
didn't have dinner until about 9:30 or something. 

And the dinner, can you describe how that was set 
out, what kind of dinner it was? 

A Yes. We went down to the Homestead Inn which is 
only a block or two away from my house and had dinner — 
children and all. 

Q And who paid for that dinner? 

A I did. 



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1 ci 1 Do you recall how much the dinner cost at this 

2 point? 

3 A Yes. I think it was somewhere between three and 

4 four hundred dollars. 

5 Did everyone in the group stay at your residence? 

6 A Yes. 

7 And they stayed there Saturday night; is that 

8 right? 

9 A Yes . 

10 Let me back up for a moment. 

11 At that dinner at the Homestead Inn, or as best 

12 you can recollect, at any time on Saturday night were there 

13 any discussions of Nicaragua or the contras? 

14 A No. 

15 Let's move to Sunday. 

16 Can you tell me what the itinerary was on Sunday? 

17 A Colonel North slept till about noon. The others 

18 straggled down for breakfast, and we had a picnic about 

19 2 o'clock, outside. 

20 Q Do you recall Nicaragua or the contras being 

21 discussed at any time on Sunday? 

22 A No. 



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1 Was there a time at the picnic on Sunday, 

2 Mrs. Newington, when Mr. Channell in the presence of Colonel 

3 North, and yourself and Mr. Miller brought up or asked a 

4 question of Colonel North about the contras or support of 

5 the contras? 

6 Do you remember that? 

7 A No. I remember only that we stayed very far away 

8 from the subject because everybody was trying to take a 

9 break and get away from it all. 

10 I guess I am trying to focus on what may have been 

11 a specific question addressed by Mr. Channell to Colonel 

12 North that some members in the group felt was rather 

13 inappropriate in light of the agreement that there would be 

14 no business discussed over the weekend. 

15 Do you recall anybody breaching that rule at any 

16 point? 

17 A No. 

18 After the picnic on Sunday what, if anything, 

19 occurred? 

20 A The children went swimming. They left late 

21 afternoon. 

22 MR. MC GOUGH: Let me show you what has been 



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9210 04 16 

1 i 1 marked as Deposition Exhibit 8. 

2 (Deposition Exhibit No. 8 

3 identified.) 

4 (Document handed to the witness.) 

5 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

6 This is a document produced by your counsel. 

7 Do you recognize this letter, Mrs. Newington? 

8 A Yes, I do. 

9 Can you tell me what it is? 

10 A It's a little thank-you note from Mrs. North. 

11 And her name is Betsy. 

12 A° Betsy . 

13 And it refers to the weekend that they just had? 

14 A Yes. 

15 And the date on it is May 12, 1986; is that right? 

16 A That's right. 

17 There is a reference on this to a "Larry." I see 

18 it at — if you turn it vertically, you can see a reference 

19 to a "Larry" here and I think it turns up as well — it's 

20 got "Larry" here. I think there's at least one other 

21 reference to "Larry." Let me look here. 

22 I think if you look at the first paragraph of the 



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letter, it says in parens, "I think Larry would have slept 
all day if Dornin hadn't insisted he get up." 

A That's her husband. Larry. She refers to him as 
Larry. 

It threw me for a bit of a loop. 

MR. HORGAN: Who refers to whom as Larry? 
THE WITNESS: Betsy refers to her husband as 
Larry. 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
So that was a reference that you — let me put it 
this way. You did not understand that to be a code name for 
Colonel North? 
A No. 

Do you know if that's his middle name? 
A Yeah, I think it is. I'm not absolutely sure, but 
it must be. 

MR. REARDON: Oliver L. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
And Dornin is one of their children? 
A Yes. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Why don't we take a brief break and 
that will allow me to sort through this stuff. 



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1 (Brief recess.) 

2 MR. MC GOUGH: Why don't we go back on the record? 

3 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

4 Mrs. Newington, let me ask you a little bit about 

5 the transition in Western Goals when Mr. Channell took over 

6 the organization. 

7 Am I correct that you were, if not instrumental, 
at least part of the process of persuading Mr. Channell to 

9 take on Western Goals? 

10 A ■ That's right. 

11 Can you tell me, did you have some kind of 

12 argreement or arrangement with him or understanding as to 

13 what you might do if he did in fact take on Western Goals? 

14 A Yes. He asked if I would stick with it for about 

15 a year until he got it going, and I said I would. They had 

16 debts to pay off and I helped them with that. And that's 

17 about it. 

18 And for that year, during which you promised to 

19 stick with it, did they provide you with — did they notify 

20 you of the amounts of money they needed to continue the 

21 project? 

22 A Yes. 



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1 And did you do your best to fulfill the 

2 organization's needs? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Did you ever understand Western Goals to have a 

5 role in or relationship to the Nicaraguan contra issue? 

6 A No. 

7 So to the extent that there were discussions of 

8 the needs of the contras or the situation in Nicaragua, 

9 those would have been centered on NEPL or Mr. Channell's 

10 other organizations as opposed to Western Goals? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 And to the extent that your money was contributed 

13 to Western Goals, you understood that money to be used for 

14 something other than the Nicaraguan Resistance? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Did Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad visit your home in 

17 Connecticut? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Can you tell me on what occasions, not necessarily 

20 dates, but if you can put it in any kind of context that 

21 would be helpful. 

22 A It's almost impossible to. I would just be 



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1 i 1 guessing. 

2 Can you tell me how many times they came, to the 

3 best of your recollection, setting aside the time they came 

4 with Colonel North? 

5 A Probably about twice together, and Mr. Channell 

6 maybe once or twice by himself. 

7 What were the purposes of those visits, as best 

8 you can recall? 

9 A To show me ads; to take a break. Just to keep my 

10 interest up. 

11 In the course of those visits to your home, did 

12 Mr. Channell ever discuss Nicaragua with yoii or the contras? 

13 A Not really. 

14 MR. HORGAN: Are you talking about the ones with 

15 Mr. Conrad at the moment? 

16 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

17 Yes. We will focus on the ones with Mr. Conrad. 

18 When Mr. Channell came with Mr. Conrad, what were 

19 the purposes of those visits? 

20 A That was really in reference to Western Goals. 

21 How about when Mr. Channell came by himself? Do 

22 you recall him discussing Nicaragua? 



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1 A Only in showing me the ads they were putting in, 

2 the lobbying situation; yes. 

3 The records you have produced for us, 

4 Mrs. Newington, show a series of contributions in the first 

5 part of 1985 totaling approximately a little over $200,000 

6 to a ACTSEF, American Conservative Trust State Election 

7 Fund. 

8 The records also show acknowledgments of those 

9 contributions received from the National Endowment for the 

10 Preservation of Liberty. 

11 Let me show you an example. My question may 

12 become clear in a moment. I don't think it's necessary to 

13 mark all these as exhibits because my question is really one 

14 of explanation, not of identification. 

15 But if you compare some of the records that you 

16 produced to us, you have, for example, a check — let me see 

17 if I can find one. 

18 MR. MORGAN: January 14 or 15, $33,800. 

19 BY MR. MC GOUGH; 

20 Q Here's one, for example. Let's do this one. We 

21 have a check made to the American Conservative Trust, 

22 January 14, 1985, in the amount of $33,800. And then we 




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] :i 1 have an acknowledgment letter dated February 28, 1986, 

2 approximately a year later from the National Endowment for 

3 the Preservation of Liberty, acknowledging 33,800 to the 

4 National Endowment. 

5 Just so you are with me here, there are a series 

6 of acknowledgment letters, all dated February 28, 1986, all 

7 of which acknowledge gifts to the National Endowment, 

8 including a number of gifts where the checks were actually 

9 written to the American Conservative Trust State Election 

10 Fund. 

11 Do you know, first of all, why these 

12 acknowledgments were sent and, secondly, why they were 

13 acknowledged as gifts to the National Endowment when it 

14 would appear that the checks were originally written to the 

15 American Conservative Trust State Election Fund? 

16 A I don't know why. I don't know. 

17 Did you request the acknowledgments from NEPL? 

18 A Yes, I did. 

19 Did you do that as a matter of course or routine, 

20 or did you specifically at some time request NEPL to provide 

21 you with acknowledgments? 

22 A I had asked them every time if they would. I 



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1 think they just decided to lump them all together, you know. 

2 The acknowledgments that we have been examining 

3 are dated in some cases a year or more after the actual 

4 contributions were made. And there's a whole series of them 

5 dated February 28th. 

6 Did you request them for tax purposes in 1986, do 

7 you know? 

8 A There was no particular reason, except I knew I 

9 should have them for tax purposes. 

10 On matters like this, did you deal directly with 

11 the people at NEPL or did your accountants — did you have 

12 accountants or people who might have made requests on your 

13 behalf? 

14 A No. I dealt directly. 

15 And as you sit here today, do you have any 

16 recollection at all as to why a contribution might have been 

17 made to ACTSEF and an acknowledgment might have been 

18 received from them? 

19 A I don't know. 

20 MR. HORGAN: Mr. McGough, I would like the record 

21 to indicate that you are correct that the payees on all the 

22 checks in question here was the ACTSEF, and although the 



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1 acknowledgments dated February 28, 1986 came from NEPL, 

2 Mrs. Newington deducted none of these contributions on her 

3 federal or state tax returns. 

4 MR. MC GOUGH: That was going to be really my next 

5 line of inquiry was looking at your tax returns, 

6 Mrs. Newington. 

7 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

8 There were some contributions made to NEPL and 

9 other Channell-related organizations that you deducted and 

10 some contributions that you did not deduct, including a 

11 number of the contributions which went in on ACTSEF checks 

12 and were acknowledged on NEPL as contributions to NEPL. 

13 Can you explain to me why you drew that 

14 distinction, why you deducted some of these matters but not 

15 others? 

16 A I knew that the — I was sure of the National 

17 Endowment being tax deductible. The others I was not 

18 totally sure of. And I didn't need to take deductions; I've 

19 got such a big carryover anyhow. So I just didn't put them 

20 in as deductions. 

21 As to your contributions to the National 

22 Endowment, do you know if there were any places where you 



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'.i 1 made contributions to the National Endowment and then 

2 decided not to deduct that amount from your income tax? 

3 A Yes. There could have been some that I have not 

4 deducted. 

5 And why would you have not deducted those? 

6 A Well, as I say, such a big carryover, it's almost 

7 foolish to put it in. 

8 But was there anything about specific 

9 contributions to NEPL that you viewed as deductible or not 

10 deductible? 

11 MR. MORGAN: Can I have the last question read 

12 back? 

13 MR. MC GOUGH: Sure. I'll repeat it. 

14 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

15 Was there anything about specific contributions to 

16 NEPL that you viewed as making them either deductible or 

17 non-deductible? Did you distinguish among your 

18 contributions to NEPL in any way? 

19 A No. 

20 So that it wasn't a situation where some of the 

21 contributions you were making to NEPL you considered 

22 deductible because they were made for one purpose, whereas 




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other contributions were made for other purposes and were 
not deductible? 
A No. 

MR. HORGAN: Perhaps to clarify the record, one of 
your earlier questions in effect assumed, the way you 
phrased it, that she made a decision not to deduct some of 
the NEPL contributions, and I think her answer was in the 
affirmative. But I think her subsequent testimony has 
indicated that she did not make a decision to do so as 
such. 

You may wish to inquire. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I guess my question was — and I 
guess I would have to check the records — but my question 
was whether there were contributions made to NEPL, checks 
perhaps or stock given to NEPL, that were not reflected as 
deductions on her tax returns. 

MR. HORGAN: That is correct. The records reflect 
that. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Perhaps decision was inartful. I 
guess what I was trying to illustrate was there were in fact 
some contributions made to NEPL that were deducted and some 
contributions made to NEPL that were not deducted. 



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1 MR. MORGAN: That is correct. 

2 MR. MC GOUGH: The records bear that out. 

3 MR. MC GOUGH: My next question is why the 

4 distinction? And Mrs. Newington explained she does-n ' t need 

5 the loss carryover, but I was still interested in why she 

6 would deduct in some cases and not deduct in others; why she 

7 made a distinction. 

8 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

9 Do you feel the record is clear on that? 

10 A I can't think of any particular reason, except 

11 perhaps tax-wise is all. 

12 MR. HORGAN: Just one moment. 

13 (Counsel for the witness confer.) 

14 MR. HORGAN: In the course of preparing for this 

15 deposition and other inquiries, I had occasion to look at 

16 the records and talk with Mrs. Newington about the subject 

17 matter of your question, and I think it was inadvertent that 

18 some — as opposed to an affirmative decision or a negative 

19 decision as opposed to a decision, I think it was 

20 inadvertent that certain contributions to NEPL were not 

21 deducted or not reported to her accountant for purposes of 
22 



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2 .i 1 Mrs. Newington did not -- kept a folder of her 

2 separate contributions, and I gather on an annual basis 

3 provided information to her accountant. 

4 Just one moment. 

5 (Counsel for the witness confer.) 

6 MR. HORGAN: Off the record. 

7 MR, MC GOUGH: Let me finish up. 

8 MR. HORGAN: This is on the same subject of who 

9 made what decision. 

10 MR. MC GOUGH: Why don't you jot a note and then 

11 do it at the end because I just have a couple of questions. 

12 (Discussion off the record.) 

13 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

14 Mrs. Newington, did you ever hear a reference by 

15 Mr. Channell or anyone associated with him to the Toys 

16 Project or Project for Toys? 

17 A No. 

18 Were you ever solicited or asl^ed to contribute to 

19 an account to provide toys — to provide toys to the 

20 children of the Nicaraguan freedom fighters? 

21 A No. 

22 Q Did anyone ever as)c you to refer to Colonel North 



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by another name? 

A Yes. 

In what context did that arise? 

A Green. Mr. Green. 

Who asked you to do that? 

A Mr. Channell. 

Do you recall when he asked you to do that? When 
was the first time he raised that with you? 

A He never mentioned it, except he would use the 
word, and so I just gathered that that's what they would 
like to use when talking on the phone or something. 

When you mentioned or spoke of Colonel North with 
Mr. Channell, did you also use the name Mr. Green? 

A I always avoided it somehow. 

You mean you avoided trying to refer to him by any 
name at all? 

A Yes. 

Did you ever ask Mr. Channell why you were using a 
code name for Mr. North? 

A No. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. MC GOUGH: Back on the record. 



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1 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

2 Q Were you aware of any other code names that were 

3 being used by the NEPL people? 

4 A No. 

5 MR. MC GOUGH: I think that's all I have. 

6 Why don't you go ahead, before Tom and Ken clean 

7 up a little bit, why don't you go ahead and ask your 

8 questions? 

9 EXAMINATION 

10 BY MR. HORGAN: 

11 Mrs. Newington, when you found yourself giving to 

12 charitable organizations, did you inquire, either orally or 

13 by letter, as to their tax-exempt status from time to time? 

14 A Yes, I did. 

15 And did your donee organizations occasionally 

16 provide you with letters, copies of letters from the IRS 

17 relating to their tax status? 

18 A Yes. 

19 And did Mr. Channell do so on a number of 

20 occasions? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Have you produced, included among the documents 



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that we produced in the response to the subpoena and the 
court immunity orders, those letters which you did receive 
from Mr. Channell relating to the tax status of his 
organizations? 

A Yes. 

Can you tell us from your memory how it was that 
you learned what you should do in making tax-deductible 
gifts; from whom you learned this over the years? 

A That was from my husband, because this had been a 
pattern that we had followed for many years. 

And that pattern was to do what? 

A Well, to always get a support letter of the tax 
deductibility of whatever you give to. 

On an annual basis, did you make available what 
records you had to your accountant in response to his 
inquiries? 

A Yes . 

(Counsel for the witness confer.) 
BY MR. HORGAN: 

And was the same general procedure followed by you 
with respect to the donations over the recent years that you 
made to other non-Channell organizations? 




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1 A Say that again, please. 

2 Did you follow the same procedures in recent years 

3 with respect to non-Channell organizations? 

4 A Oh, yes. 

5 You mentioned your charitable carry forwards. I 

6 take it, then, that over recent years you made substantial 

7 other charitable donations having nothing whatever to do 

8 with Mr. Channell or any of his organizations? 

9 A That's correct. 

10 MR. MORGAN: No further questions. 

11 EXAMINATION 

12 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

13 Mrs. Newington, I have a few questions. You have 

14 testified about contributions that you've made to various of 

15 Mr. Channell' s organizations. And as to some of those 

16 organizations you took tax deductions, and others you did 

17 not; is that correct? 

18 A That's correct. 

19 In your discussions with Mr. Channell when he 

20 would call you seeking a contribution, he would specify 

21 which organization he would like the contribution to go to; 

22 is that correct? 



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1 ^i 1 A That's right. 

2 Did you ever authorize Mr. Channell in any way to 

3 transfer the contribution you had made to one of his 

4 organizations to another of his organizations? 

5 A No. 
You have spoken this morning about discussions 

with Mr. Channell and Colonel North about a contribution 

8 that was to be used for construction of an airfield and the 

9 purchase of a reconnaissance plane; is that correct? 

10 A That's correct. 

11 Were you ever told by Colonel North that your 

12 contribution was used for that purpose? 

13 A Never specifically; no. 

14 What was said by Colonel North with regard to 

15 that? 

16 A Oddly enough, I don't think I ever heard that this 

17 amount was used for that. I don't think I ever heard that. 

18 I just assumed that whatever I gave went where it went. 

19 Did Mr. Channell ever say anything about the use 

20 of those contributions? 

21 A No; except for things, particular ads in papers or 

22 television spots or something. 




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1 ci 1 Do you know if the reconnaissance plane was ever 

2 purchased? 

3 A I have no way of being absolutely certain; no. 

4 Did anyone ever give any indication to you that it 

5 was purchased? 

6 A No. 

7 Did anyone ever give any indication to you that 

8 there was any money spent on an airfield? 

9 A No, not really. 

10 Mrs. Newington, were there any funds transferred 

11 to you in any way which were then used for you to make a 

12 contribution to one of Mr. Channell's organizations? 

13 A No. 

14 Was there ever any discussion of any transfer of 

15 that sort? 

16 A No. 

17 You mentioned that you requested from 

18 Mr. Channell, I believe, some documentation as to the 

19 tax-exempt status of certain of his organizations, and you 

20 received such documentation. 

21 Did you have any other communications with 

22 Mr. Channell or with anyone in his organization about the 



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tax deductibility of your contributions? 
A No. 

MR. HORGAN: Just a moment. 
(Counsel confers with the witness.) 
MR. HORGAN: Your question, I believe/ was whether 
there was -- in effect, your question was any other 
communications besides the letters that have been referred 
to and which we produced, and I think the witness could add 
to her answer. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. Telephone calls, discussions 
on the telephone. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Were these discussions with Mr. Channell? 
A Yes. 

What did he tell you in these discussions? 
A Well, for instance, if I asked him for the 
501(c)(3) of NEPL, he would say "Certainly." And I received 
it. I was sent it and I received it. Nothing much more 
than that. 

I mean if I requested it on the phone, he would 
see that I received it. 

Was there any discussion with Mr. Channell as to 



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1 ,i 1 the tax deductibility of any particular contribution that 

2 you were making? 

3 A No. 

4 Did he ever tell you that any of your 

5 contributions could not be deducted on your tax returns? 

6 A Yes. There was something like the Sentinel. A 

7 few of the state election funds were not deductible. He 

8 made me aware of that. 

9 Did you discuss with Mr. Channell the 

10 deductibility of the contributions for the airfield and the 

11 reconnaissance plane? 

12 A No, because it was given to — I mean the 

13 contribution was given to the NEPL, and that's all that it 

14 meant to me. 

15 What was your conclusion from the fact that it was 

16 given to NEPL about the tax deductibility? 

17 A Well, I assumed that it was definitely tax 

18 deductible. I have the 501(c)(3) letter. 

19 Did he instruct you to make the contribution for 

20 these purposes to NEPL? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Can you identify, Mrs. Newington, the particular 



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1 contributions that you made for these purposes? That is, 

2 the construction of the airfield and the reconnaissance 

3 plane. 

4 A I really can't pinpoint, you know, this check went 

5 for that. It's very hard to do. 

6 In your answers to Mr. McGough's questions, you 

7 referred to a number of meetings with Mr. Channell and 

8 Colonel North, and there were references during certain of 

9 these meetings to weapons for the Resistance in Nicaragua. 

10 And I believe at the beginning of the deposition, 

11 you mentioned that that was one of the subjects that had 

12 come up. 

13 Focusing on that particular area of discussions, I 

14 would like to go back and review the meetings, beginning 

15 with your first recollection of discussion of weapons of any 

16 sort with Mr. Channell or Colonel North. 

17 What was the first occasion? 

18 A The briefing with Colonel North. 

19 When was that? 

20 A That was June 25th, I think. 

21 June of 1985 briefing? 

22 A Uh-huh. 




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1 ci 1 And what did he say in that briefing about 

2 weapons? 

3 A Only to mention the name, that they needed 

4 weapons; that it was a very important part of their 

5 equipment. 

6 Did he specify any types of weapons? 

7 A Not to me; no. 

8 Did he mention ammunition? 

9 A No. 

10 Grenades? 

11 A No. 

12 Mines? 

13 A No. 

14 Did he mention any dollar amount needed to 

15 purchase weapons? 

16 A No. 

17 After the briefing with Colonel North, you met 

18 with Mr. Channell; is that correct? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Now, did Mr. Channell say anything about weapons 

21 following that briefing? 

22 A No. You mean to ask me for money for weapons or 




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something? 

Or was there any reference to the briefing and 
Colonel North's reference to weapon^? 

A No, not particularly. There was reference to the 
briefing because we talked about what was said, but nothing 
pertaining particularly to weapons. 

When was the next occasion the weapons were 
mentioned either by Mr. Channell or Colonel North? 

A It never was to me particularly. 

MR. HORGAN: I think a clarification would be that 
she has testified earlier today that at various times during 
these solicitations made by Mr. Channell, the subject of 
equipment, supplies, or food and weapons would be included 
in that list. And I think it was mentioned on more than one 
occasion by Mr. Channell, and that during various of the 
solicitations it may have been mentioned. 

So when you say "never," it's a question of never 
saying never. I think it did come up on more than one 
occasion following the initial briefing. I think some of 
her testimony earlier today may have referred to that. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Q Other than the references that you made earlier 



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1 today to discussion of weapons, Mrs. Newington, can you 

2 recall any other discussion? 

3 A No. 

4 Mrs. Newington, Mr. McGough asked you several 

5 questions about the Western Goals organization and you had 

6 been an active supporter of that for a number of years; is 

7 that correct? 

8 A That's correct. 

9 Now, the Executive Director of that organization, 

10 or the person in charge of the organization had been a woman 

11 named Linda Guell; had it not? 

12 A That's correct. 

13 Did she continue with the organization after 

14 Mr. Channell assumed control of it? 

15 A Yes, for a very brief time. 

16 And then was she replaced, or did she resign or 

17 what? 

18 A She resigned, and she was not replaced as far as I 

19 know. 

20 Did she start another organization? 

21 A No. She just went to another job. 

22 Have you had any contact with Linda Guell since 



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1 she left Western Goals? 

2 A Well, in the beginning when she left, she would 

3 keep in contact with me; yes. 

4 What was the nature of that contact? 

5 A We had been friends, you see, for a long time 

6 because of Congressman MacDonald. So it was just a friendly 

7 basis to keep me informed as to what her problems were and 

8 what she was about to do, and her resigning from Western 

9 Goals when Mr. Channell had it. 

10 Did she comment in these conversations on 

11 Mr. Channell? 

12 A Yes. She was not happy to be working for him. 

13 What did she say? 

14 A That she had been relegated to the job, more or 

15 less, of a secretary and she had not been used to that. She 

16 just wasn't happy. 

17 ■ Did she have any specific criticisms about how 

18 Mr. Channell was running the organizations? 

19 A No. Not specifically. She was just not pleased 

20 with his attitude to her. That's all. 

21 Other than treating her like a secretary, what 

22 examples did she give? 



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1 A I don't think there were any others. That was the 

2 main thing that she really was upset about. 

3 When was the last time you spoke with Linda Guell? 

4 A Several months ago. 

5 Was it in 1987? 

6 A Yes. I think I had a chat with her in the 

7 beginning of '87. 

8 When was the last time you spoke with 

9 Mr. Channell? 

10 A The visit in New York in '87. 

11 (Counsel and the witness confer.) 

12 THE WITNESS: Yes. Phone calls and other matters 

13 always on Western Goals. Western Goals was starting a new 

14 project and he would call me particularly about that. 

15 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

16 When was the last time you spoke with him on the 

17 telephone? 

18 A It must have been probably March. 

19 And the last time you met with him face to face 

20 was when? 

21 A I think that was early March. 

22 (Counsel and the witness confer.) 



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BY MR. FRYMAN: 
And did these meetings relate to a new fundraising 
project? 

A Yes. 

MR. HORGAN: Meeting, singular. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Meeting, singular. The meeting and telephone 
conversation or conversations. 

Did he say anything about the operations of NEPL 
and the fundraising he had done with respect to Nicaragua? 
A Not to me; no. 

Have you spoken with Mr. Channell's attorneys? 
A No. 

MR. HORGAN: At what point in time does your 
question go to? 

MR. FRYMAN: Let's say any time in the last three 
years. 

(Coynsel and the witness confer.) 
MR. HORGAN: Very recently, the same day that 
Mr. Channell pleaded guilty in court, Mrs. Newington 
received a telephone call from Alexia Morrison. Pursuant to 




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1 my suggestion, Mrs. Newington simply referred Ms. Morrison 

2 to me and I then received a telephone call from 

3 Ms. Morrison; simply advised me so that I would learn first 

4 from her rather than from the press of his guilty plea. 

5 And I believe that the only conversation 

6 Mrs. Newington had was a very brief one from Mr. Channel's 

7 lawyer where she essentially referred Ms. Morrison to me. 

8 That would have been the day that he made his plea. 

9 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

10 Mrs. Newington, other than this call that has been 

11 described on the day of Mr. Channell's plea, have you had 

12 any other meeting or telephone conversation or communication 

13 of any sort with Mr. Channell's attorney during the last 

14 three years? 

15 A No. 

16 When was the last time you had any communication 

17 with Colonel North? 

18 A The visit in May. 

19 MR. MORGAN: Do you remember anything else? 

20 THE WITNESS: Actually I don't. 

21 MR. HORGAN: Just a moment. 

22 (Counsel and the witness confer.) 



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MR. HORGAN: I reminded the witness that we have 
produced at your request, pursuant to the subpoena, her 
telephone bills that included some references to calls 
placed to Colonel North's office from her residence. And I 
believe Mrs. Newington did have occasion -- you may ask her 
if you would care to — to speak with Colonel North on the 
telephone since the last time that she saw him, which was 
the May '86 visit. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Have you spoken with Colonel North on the 
telephone since that visit, Mrs. Newington? 

A Yes. 

On how many occasions? 

A Twice. 

When was the first occasion? 

A I don't remember the exact time, but I know that I 
spoke to his wife. That was one call. I actually hadn't 
spoken to him; I spoke with her. 

And the second call, I guess, was speaking to 
him. 

The call with his wife — was that call before or 
after Colonel North resigned? 




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1 .i 1 A After. 

2 Q And the call with Colonel North, was that before 

3 or after he resigned? 

4 A After. 

5 Q Now, the call with Colonel North, what did he say 

6 to you in that call? 

7 A He said that — he just mentioned^, how it was the 

8 first time at least he was able to fix his roof on the house 

9 and have a little — rather refreshing for him to have this 

10 time off, and that he was hopeful that everything would turn 

11 out all right. 

12 You called him; is that correct? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Did anyone suggest that you call him? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Who? 

17 A Mr. Channell. 

18 Did he give a reason why you should call him? 

19 A Just to give him some support at this particular 

20 time. Moral support. 

21 And did you call him at his home? 

22 A Yes. Well, I called his home to speak to Betsy; 



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1 u 1 the second one was to his office. I spoke to him at his 

2 office. 

3 In this call with Colonel North, was there any 

4 discussion about any of your contributions? 

5 A No. 

6 Was there any discussion about Nicaragua or the 

7 Resistance? 

8 j A No. 

9 In the second call with his wife, how would you 

10 describe that call? Was it a social call? 

11 A A social call. 

12 MR. REARDON: Pardon me. Wasn't that the first 

13 call? 

14 THE WITNESS: The first was to her; yes. 

15 MR. FRY/MAN: In chronological order, the call to 

16 the wife was first and then followed up with a call to the 

17 office. 

18 THE WITNESS: (Nods in the affirmative.) 

19 MR. MORGAN: Could I ask just one simple 

20 clarifying question? 

21 Did you place the call to speak to Mrs. North or 

22 to Colonel North? I gather you spoke to Mrs. North, but did 



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1 you call, trying to reach — 

2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Trying to reach him, and he 

3 was not home. And so I spoke with her. 

4 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

5 What did she say in your call with her? 

6 A Naturally, she was very disturbed. She, too, felt 

7 that things would come all right. 

8 Have you made any contribution to a defense fund 

9 for Colonel North? 

10 A No. 

11 MR. FRYMAN: Mrs. Newington, I have no further 

12 questions. Thank you very much. 

13 Mr. Buck may have a few questions. 

14 MR. BUCK: Mrs. Newington, I have no questions. I 

15 just want to thank you very much for coming here today. 

16 FURTHER EXAMINATION 

17 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

18 Let me, at the risk of spoiling everything, let me 

19 just cover two other letters to get them identified and find 

20 out what the context was before we depart here. And we will 

21 mark them as the final exhibits. I will give them both to 

22 you and try to do them together. 



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(Deposition Exhibit Nos . 9 
and 10 identified.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Mrs. Newington, I show you what have been marked 
as Exhibits 9 and 10, letters of July 11, 1985 and 
October 6, 1985 to you from Adolfo Calero, which were 
supplied by document production. 

Do you recognize these letters? 
A Yes, I do. 

• Did you in fact receive them from Mr. Calero? 
A Yes, I did. 

The July 11th letter refers to a trip to New York 
by Mr. Calero and also gratitude to Spitz Channell for an 
opportunity to get to know you. 

Did you meet with Mr. Calero in New York? 
A Yes, I did. 

What was the purpose of that meeting? 
A I believe Mr. Channell again arranged this 
meeting. I think that he just wanted me to be brought 
further into the Nicargaun picture and have direct 
contact with the man who was running the operations 
down there. 

There was no solicitation of funds at that time. 



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Did Mr. Calero describe the needs of the contras 
at that meeting? 
Yes. 



Did he talk about both military and non-military 



A 


needs? 

A To me it was all non-military. 

After that meeting with Mr. Calero, did you ever 
have occasion to speak with him again, either in person or 
over the telephone? 

A No. 

You received what has been marked as Exhibit 10,' 
the October 6th letter, did you not? You ultimately 
received a letter from him on October 6th; is that right? 

MR. HORGAN: So that the record is clear. Exhibit 
9, we believe, was received by Mrs. Newington through the 
mails and we believe that Exhibit 10, which is the October 
6th letter, was delivered to her by Mr. Channell or one of 
his colleagues, and that he had in some fashion received it 
from its author, Mr. Calero — from its purported author, 
Mr. Calero. 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Had you had any communications with Mr. Calero 




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leading up to the October 6th letter, other than the ones we 
have discussed? 

A No. 

Were you surprised to receive that letter? 

A Yes. 

Why did you understand you had received it? 

A Are you talking about this letter? (Indicating.) 

Yes, the second letter, the October 6th letter. 

A I gathered Mr. Channell must have told him of my 
involvement and he was just thanking me. 

Can you tell me what the Larry MacIDonald Brigade 
is? 

A Yes. That was something that was formed just 
because Mr. Calero and Congressman MacDonald had been 
friends. And he was a great admirer — Calero was a great 
admirer of MacDonald and thought it would be a very nice 
thing to name a task force after him. 

By a task force, you mean a military unit? is that 
right? 

A That's right. 

The October 6th indicates that you helped in 
forming the Larry MacDonald Brigade; is that correct? 




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1 .i 1 A That's correct. 

2 And how did you help? 

3 A By contributing money through Mr. Channell. It 

4 was all the same. 

5 That was going to be my next question. 

6 In order to form the Larry MacDonald Brigade, you 

7 made your contributions through Mr. Channell? 

8 A That's correct. 

9 And that would be through NEPL; that wasn't 

10 through a separate organization? 

11 A No . 

12 When you made contributions, did you earmark them, 

13 at least with Mr. Channell, specifically for the Larry 

14 MacDonald Brigade, or did you view all the contras as 

15 essentially interchangeable and just made general 

16 contributions? 

17 A The latter is correct. 

18 So you didn't earmark specific contributions for 

19 the Larry MacDonald Brigade? 

20 A No. 

21 Did you understand that money being provided to 

22 Mr. Channell would be used to buy — at least part of the 



lINttMM 



TERS, Inc. 



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UNCIASSIFIED 



106 



money would be used to buy supplies for the Larry MacDonald 
Brigade? 

A That's correct. 

Did you ever understand that part of that money 
would be used to buy arms for the Larry MacDonald Brigade? 

A No. It was mainly uniforms. That's what I 
understood. 

And who told you that, if you can recall? 
A Mr. Calero. Both of them. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I have nothing further. 
MR. FRYMAN: Nothing further. 

(Whereupon, at 12:35 o'clock p.m., the taking of 
the deposition was concluded.) 



oNMm 



RTERS, Inc. 



202-347-3700 



Naiionwidg Cnvgragg 



anf>-33»i-^;/u/i 



466 



CERTIPICA' 




I, KAREN N. ILSEMA^TN the officer before whom 
the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify 
that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that 
the testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand 
and thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under 
my direction; that said deposition is a true record 
of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by 
any of the parties to the action in which this 
deposition was taken; and, further, that I am not 
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel 
employed by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwis'j interested in the outcome of this action. 



107 



Notary Public in and for the 
District of Columbia 



My Commission Expires FEBRUARY 14, 1991 



DNCLASSIFIF 



467 



/ o Oc:t^s- 



^^' 



x"" 



3N 



THE WHITE HOLSE 

WASHINGTON 



October 10, 1985 



Dear Mrs. Newington; 



I want to take this opportunity to express to 
you my deep appreciation for the selfless, 
patriotic support you have provided so 
unflinchingly to this Administration and to our 
policies. 

Among the most important of our policies, of 
course, is the promotion of liberty and 
democracy abroad. Your invaluable assistance 
for the cause of freedom, in helping to educate 
others and in actively supporting those who so 
much depend on us, is a credit to this great 
nation. 

We are grateful for your commitment to that 
cause and for your continuing support. 

God bless you for your steadfastness. 

Sincerely, 



\ ^(SV-vAflL f ^i^tjL^-^s. 



Greenwich, Connecticut 06836 



0191 






Partially Declassified/ReleascJ onJbf^89 
under provisions ol E '.?mS 
by K, Johnson. Nalionj! Soc. .„ Council 




SS34 



UNCIASSIFI 






468 



;^ V J^<f'(' 



NJ^TIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON. O C. 2090« 



BN 



0188 



ONCUSSIFIED 



January 24, 1986 



ni\\/4cY 






Dear Barbara: 

During 1985, the hope freedom and democracy in Nicaragua was kept 
alive with the help of the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty and fine Americans such as you. Because you cared, 
the spark of liberty still glows in the darkness of Nicaragua. 

Without patriots like you, carrying out the President's policy of 
support for a democratic outcome in Nicaragua would have been 
even more difficult. Your efforts and those of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty continue to play a 
crucial role in the democratic drama unfolding in Nicaragua. 
Your support has been essential to those who struggle against the 
tyranny and oppression of the totalitarian communist regime in 
Managua. You have given hope where there would otherwise be 
despair. 

Last year was a challenging time for America and her President. 
But, we are headed in the right direction. Today, in all of 
Central America only Nicaragua is not a democracy. You can be 
proud that you have made a crucial contribution in helping our 
President in this vital endeavor. In the weeks ahead, we will 
commence a renewed effort to make our assistance to the 
Democratic Resistance Forces even more effective. Once again 
your support will be essential. 

All my best for the New Year and God bless you. "" 



Sincerely, 



.V.-osocT 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



»aiiv BLL l ujJ i f i u ( K Released on llPg^ &8 
Di K i r nfaiin i nni ii l ji O looo j. 
•< Jomson. Natranal Security Council 



rs. Barbar^a— Newington 



^335" 



Jreenwich, CT 0683< 



UNClASSIFlEi 



469 






FUER2A DEMOCRATICA NICARAGOENSE 

BN 0185 



July 11th, 1985 

Mrs. Ba rba ra New in gton 

^ peiv/»cy> 

reenwTch, Connecticut O6836 



Dear Mrs. Newington » 

My trip to New York was an inspiration. The Larry McDonald 
task force is already forming. 

I am grateful to Spitz Channel for the opportunity to get 
to know you. Your support smd patriotic contribution touches all 
of us. 

We will not disappoint you, our countrymen or President 
Reagam. Freedom will return to Nicaragua bacause we believe God 
wants it there. God bless you. 

Sincere lyt 



"■r-^ 



Adolfo Calero Portocarrero 



Partially Oeclassiried/Reieased nn Xtfj B %Q 
under provisions of E 123S6 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



.^yy. 



UKCUSSIFIED 



470 



_ (i>0. 



FUgBZA DEMOCRATICA NICARAGUENSE 



mmmm 



BN 




0186 



October 6, 1985 

Mrs. Barbara NeMington 

Dear Mrs. Newington: 

I am dictating this letter from our command center and 
have asked Mr. Channell to help get it to you. 

You are a great lady and a true friend of the cause of 
freedom in Nicaragua. Your help in forming the Larry 
MacDonald Brigade touched us all. Without Americans 
like you we can not succeed. 

We have begun a major push to unite the forces in the 
South with those fighting in the North. You will be 
proud to know that the Larry MacDonald Brigade is part 
of that effort. 

We stand for Democracy in Nicaragua and your assistance 
stands as a shining example of Americans who have sacrificed 
to hel p us . 

God bless you and we remain your constant admirers. 

Si ncerely , 

Adolfo Calero 



, Declassified/Released on tPrCP ^ ^ 
under provisions of EO 12356 
by K Johnson, National Security Council 



BNtiissro 




471 



STENOGRAPHIC BONimSS 
UnrcTlMd mnd Unedited 
Not for Quotation or 
DapUcatloa 



gmam T B aveioi 






"■^ 



■UUUVifl 8K8I0B 

Committee HearingB 
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



W 



. .V ^ ^VVXVCW**' OFFICE OF THE CLERK 
■■'y.-.i^\ '^«i^J* Oence of Official Bepoitcn 




fUKUTiyi SB8X01 



472 



DINKEL/mas 




,\J 




EXECUTIVE SESSION 



JOINT HEARINGS ON THE 
IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

Testimony of Oliver L. North 

Wednesday, July 1, 1987 



House Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

and 

Senate Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Washington, D.C. 






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The select committees met, pursuant to call, at 
5:10 p.m., in Room B-352, Rayburn House Office Building, 
Hon. Dick Cheney (on behalf of the House Select Committee) 
and Hon. Daniel K. Inouye (chairman of the Senate Select 
Committee) presiding. 






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UNCLASSIHED 



""^Chairman Inouye. The Senate Conmittee will please 
come to order. 

In accordance with Committee Rule 2.1 I will entertain 
a motion this hearing be closed to the public. 

Mr. Rudman. Pursuant to Committee Rule 2.2, I move the 
committee hearing be closed because the matters to be 
discussed include matters of national security. 

Chairman Inouye. I have the following proxies which 
will become part of the record: Senator Sarbanes, Heflin, 
Boren, Nunn, and my vote is also aye. 

Mr. Rudman. I also have proxies from the following 
Members: Senator Hatch, Cohen, and Senator McClure. I 
also vote aye. 

Chairman Inouye. Senator Mitchell? 

Mr. Mitchell. Aye. 

Chairman Inouye. Senator Trible. 

Mr. Trible. Aye. 

Chairman Inouye. The vote is unanimous in favor of 
closing this hearing. 

Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Chairman, I might record as well for 
the limited purpose of this hearing, we have no objection 
to it being in executive session. As explained yesterday, 
our request to maintain open hearings still stands based 
upon our earlier letter. But for the purposes of today's 
session, we agree to have it closed. 5 if , , ; *' ;-■ ^- - •,' !■' 

%l^. :■«;•. '..-J iV':y-il ^ ''''"■ 



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Chairman Inouye. I have another matter to bring up 
while we are waiting. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Cheney. Mr. Chairman, I move in light of the 
sensitive nature of the material to be discussed, that we 
meet in executive session. 

Mr. Jenkins. Without objection from our side, we 
have sufficient proxies, I think. 

Chairman Inouye. Now you are in executive session, 
the Senate and the House. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Cheney. The committee will come to order. 

For the sake of establishing a clear record — 
we lack a Member on this side. Without a quorum, we can't 
proceed. Will somebody check and make sure Mr. Jenkins 
is on his way back? 

Mr. Jenkins is now present. Still off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.) 

Mr. Cheney. Back on the record. 

Colonel North, would you stand? 

(The witness was sworn by Mr. Cheney.) 

Mr. Cheney. Thank you. 

The Chair recognizes the counsel for the House Select 
Comjnittee, Mr. Nields. 
l-iiTt'^Mr. Sullivan. Excuse me. I think it would be appropriat' 



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to^KSve the Senate swear him as well. 

Mr. Cheney. We have only done it once for every 
witness . 

Mr. Sullivan. Would you mind doing it? 

(The witness was sworn by Chairman Inouye.) 

Chairman Inouye. Thank you. 

Mr. Chairman. The Chair recognizes Mr. Nields. 

Mr. Nields. Colonel North, this is a joint hearing 
of the House and Senate Select Committees on Iran. The 
subject of the question today — which is being conducted 
in executive session — is — the subject is the knowledge, 
if any, of the President on the subject of the use of the 
proceeds of arms sales to Iran for the Nicaraguan Resistance. 

I would ask you at the outset whether you have any 
information on that subject? 

Mr. North. Mr. Nields, I respectfully decline to answer 
that question based on my Fifth Amendment rights against 
self-incrimination. 

Mr. Cheney. Colonel North, I hereby communicate to 
you an order issued by the United States District Court for 
the District of Columbia at the request of the House 
Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions 
with Iran, providing that you may not refuse to provide 
any evidence to this committee on the basis of your 
priyijLege against self-incrimination and providing further 

I V. ii 



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, ^^^ 






#OLk^^«® 



thaJtno evidence or other information obtained under the 
order or any information directly or indirectly derived 
from such evidence may be used against you in any criminal 

proceeding. 

Chairman Inouye. We are hereby communicating to you 
a similar order obtained by the Senate Select Committee; 
and on behalf of this committee, we join in the direction 

to you, sir. 

Mr. Cheney. Colonel North, I therefore direct you to 
answer the questions put to you. 

Mr. Sullivan. One clarification for the record so 
that it is clear. We have requested that all proceedings 
be open. We are agreeable to this short executive session 
being closed but do not waive our future rights. 

Secondly, the Colonel is here pursuant to the 
compulsion of subpoena. 
Thank you. 

Mr. Cheney. Mr. Nields? 

Mr. Nields. For the sake of convenience only, I 
will be referring to the use of the proceeds of arms sales 
to Iran for the support of the Nicaraguan Resistance as 
the diversion or a diversion. Is that understood? 
Mr. North. Yes, it is. 

Mr. Nields. DO you have any information with respect 
^.ii^e president's knowledge of the diversion; and I'm 



mM 



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BHtmsw 



referring now to his knowledge prior to November 24, 1986? 

Mr. North. Yes. I never personally discussed use of 
the residuals or profits from sale of weapons to Iran and 
the assistance therefor derived for the Nicaraguan Resistance 
with the President. I never raised it with him and he 
never raised it with me during my tenure at the National 
Security Council staff. 

Throughout, I assumed that he knew. 1 sought approval 
by presenting these proposals to Admiral Poindex'ter; and 
he subsequently authorized me to proceed. I assumed that 
Admiral Poindexter had solicited and obtained the President's 
approval for those actions. 

To my recollection, Admiral Poindexter never told me 
that he met with the President on this specific issue 
or that he had discussed the use of residuals or profits 
for use by the contras or the Nicaraguan Resistance with the 
President or that he got the President's specific approval 
for these activities; but throughout, I assumed that all 
these things had occurred. 

No other person ever told me that he or she ever 
discussed the use of the residuals or profits from the sale 
of these arms to the use of the Nicaraguan Resistance or 
their support with the President. 

In late November 1986, two other things occurred which 
relate to this issue. On or about Friday, November 21st, 



I 



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I "asked Admiral Poindexter pointedly, "Does the President 
know?" 

And he told me, "No, he did not." 

And on November 25th, after I had left the White House 
and been reassigned to the Marine Corps, a telephone call 
from the President. In the course of that telephone 
call, the President said to me, "I just didn't know," or 
words to that effect. Those are the facts as I know them 
or as relayed by others to me on this issue. 

There is one other matter which I would raise or 
should raise by way of clarification. After a meeting in 
the summer of 1986, at which we discussed the $100 million 
authorized and appropriated by the Congress but not yet 
forwarded to the President, and therefore not yet 
available to the Resistance, on leaving a meeting at which 
the President had been present, I said to Admiral Poindexter, 
"It looks," — words to the effect that "It looks like 
the Ayatollah will have to help the Resistance in 
Nicaragua a little bit longer," or words to that effect. 

I do not believe that the President overheard that 
comment. It was not intended for him. It was intended 
for Admiral Poindexter. 

Those, sir, are the facts as I know them. 

Mr. Nields. I have a few specific follow-up questions. 
Colonel North. 






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BNtussro 



"""You testified about a conversation with the President 
on November 25th in which he said, "I just didn't know." 
Was the diversion mentioned during that conversation? 

Mr. North. The word "diversion" was not mentioned. 
I assumed from the conversation that the President was 
referring specifically to the fact that he did not know 
about the fact that funds generated as a consequence of the 
sale of arms materiel to Iran had been used to support the 
Nicaraguan Resistance. 

Mr. Nields. But I take it from your testimony that that 
was an assumption; that subject matter was never specifically 
discussed by either of you during the conversation? 

Mr. North. The specific subject was not discussed, 
Mr, Nields, but the whole conversation dealt with my 
departure from the NSC. And the case thereof. 

Mr. Nields. Just so we are clear, did either the 
President or you make any reference during the conversation 
to the use of the proceeds of the arms sales for the 
Nicaraguan Resistance? 

Mr. North. No. 

Mr. Nields. But you understood in the context of the 
situation that the words "I just didn't know" referred 
to the diversion? 

Mr. North. It was very clear to me that what the 
President was referring to was the fact that I — 

i 



■jr,jM,*Vit^?if|fiJ; 



481 



IINCUSSIFIED 



10 



Admiral Poindexter and I had left or been relieved, reassigned 

as a consequence of the fact that he did not know about 

the use of those funds to support the Nicaraguan Resistance, 

Mr. Nields. Other than that coversation, did you ever 
personally discuss the diversion with the President? 

Mr. North. I did not. 



6 

Mr. Nields. Were you ever present when that subject 

was discussed with the President? 



Mr. North. I was not, aside from that one conversation 
I had with the President on the 25th. 

Mr. Nields. Has anyone ever told you that the 
President was aware of the diversion? 

Mr. North. No. 

Mr. Nields. Have you ever discussed the subject of the 
President's awareness of the diversion with anyone? 

Mr. North. I have discussed it with Attorney General 
Meese. 

Mr. Nields. When was that? 

Mr. North. On the 23rd of November, 1986. 

Mr. Nields. Prior to that date had you ever discussed 
that subject with Attorney General Meese? 

Mr. North. I had not. 

Mr. Nields. Anyone else? 

Mr. North. Obviously Admiral Poindexter. 

Mr. Nields. That was on November the 21st? 






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Mr. North. Yes, and perhaps for a period of time 
thereafter before I — 

Mr. Nields. Had you ever discussed the subject of the 
President's knowledge of the diversion with Admiral 
Poindexter prior to November 21st? 

Mr. North. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Nields. Did you discuss that subject with anyone 
else? 

Mr. North. At any point in time? 

Mr. Nields. Let's limit it to prior to November 24th, 
1986. 

Mr. North. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Nields. Did you ever create any documents that 
may -- 

Mr. North. If I may, let me, just to clarify. You 
just said ever prior to November 24th. There was the issue 
of a discussion I had with General Secord in which I 
related to him that I had joked about it with the President. 
But I have already discussed that. 

Mr. Nields. Did you tell General Secord that you had 
joked about the Ayatollah funding the contras with the 
President? 

Mr. North. Again I may have joked with him. I don't 
deny that. I am simply saying I don't recall that discussion 
with him, but I may well have joked with him about that 



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UNCUSSIRED 



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aspect of it, yes, 

Mr. Nields. Why would you joke with General Secord 
or why would you tell General Secord that you had joked 
with the President about the diversion if it wasn't true? 

Mr. North. To keep him more enthusiastically engaged. 
He was tired, frustrated. To keep him engaged in the 
activity. 

Mr. Nields. Did you discuss the subject of the 
President's knowledge of the diversion with anyone else 
prior to November 24, 1986? 

Mr. North. Not that I recall, no. 

Mr. Nields. Did you create and send up the line, so 
to speak, documents which made reference to the use of the 
proceeds of Iran arms sales for the benefit of the 
Nicaraguan Resistance? 

Mr. North. Yes, I did. 

Mr. Nields. On how many occasions? 

Mr, North, My recollection is that it would have 
been five, perhaps six times. 

Mr. Nields. And what occasioned your writing these 
documents and sending them up the line? 

Mr. North. Each time we had a proposal for transaction 
from the Iranians, as a consequence of our meetings with 
them, I would prepare a description of how the transaction 
would take place, the consequences of it, and send those 



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menios up to Admiral Poindexter. 

Mr. Nields. And did these memos seek the President's 
approval? 

Mr. North. My recollection is that the memo would 
have had an approval, disapproval recommendation line on 
it asking for — that the President approve this activity, 
words to that effect. 

Mr. Nields. This would be a line where one could 
either check approve, or disapprove? 

Mr. North. Admiral Poindexter could indicate approve 
or disapprove. That is correct. 

Mr. Nields. That is approved or disapproved by the 
President? 

Mr. North. No. I want to be specific. For exeunple, 
the line — the recommendation line might read that you 
discuss the activity proposed above with the President and 
seek his approval. Then below that there would be 
approve, disapprove, two spaces for an initial or a check. 

Mr. Nields. Did those memoranda — I take it you sent 
those up the line, so to speak, to Admiral Poindexter. 

Mr. North. It is my recollection that I did, yes. 

Mr. Nields. And did they come back? 

Mr. North. I cannot recall specifically that those 
memoranda came back to me directly; but that would not 
have been unusual under those circumstances, that this is 



485 



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14 



a --"was a very sensitive, very closely compartjnented 
activity, but I always got an approval from the Admiral either 
verbally or otherwise, proceed before the transaction took 

place. 

Mr. Nields. And I take it three of these transactions 

did take place? 

Mr. North. That is correct. 

Mr. Nields. And you received approvals before they 

went forward? 

Mr. North. Ves, I did. 

Mr. Nields. Did any of these memos come back? 
Mr. North. Again, I do not recall specifically seeing 
the memos come back to me with the boxes checked or initialed 

by the Admiral. 

Mr. Nields. What is your best recollection on that 

subject? 

Mr. North. I simply don't recall. They may well have. 

It is entirely possible that they didn't. 

Mr. Nields. Did you ever see any other documents 
either created by you or some other person that made 
reference to the diversion? 

Mr. North. There were documents at the Central 
intelligence Agency, prepared by officers of the Central 
Intelligence Agency. 

can I ask a question, if I may? ^•V^-;^-:- \'i^'^:--X^L ■ 



486 



ONCLASSra 



15 



Mr, Cheney. Colonel, if I may, at this point anything 
that is classified, discussed in this setting would be 
deleted before there would ever be a release of the 
transcript. 

Mr. North. I was concerned about the names. 

There were memos prepared at the Central Intelligence 
Agency beginning in the late summer, early fall which 
related to information obtained by the Central Intelligence 
Agency reflecting that monies raised as a consequence of 
these arms transactions were indeed being used to support 
the Nicaraguan Resistance. 

Mr. Nields. Do you have any reason or do you have any 
knowledge or information on the subject whether those 
memoranda or any of those writings ever were brought to 
the attention of the President? 

Mr. North. I do not know. 

Mr. Nields. Did you — are there any other documents 
of which you are aware that made reference or made 
reference to the diversion? 

Mr. North. Not that I know of. 

Mr. Nields. Did you ever discuss the subject of the 
President's knowledge of the diversion with Director Casey? 

Mr. North. I do not recall addressing that issue 
with the Director, no. 
,e Mr. Nields. Did you ever discuss the subject of the 



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President's knowledge of the diversion with Mr. McFarlane? 

Mr. North. Not before the -- my recollection is that 
the issue of the residuals or profits being used to 
support the Nicaraguan Resistance as a subject was 
discussed with Mr. McFarlane during May of 1986. At that 
time, we did not raise the issue — neither of us raised 
the issue of whether or not the President had approved it. 
I believe that subsequent to my discussion with the Attorney 
General on the 23rd of November, I talked to Mr. McFarlane, 
as I did to Admiral Poindexter, and told them what I had 
told the Attorney General . And part of what I told them 
was that the Attorney General had asked me about the 
President's knowledge and I told them that I told him I 
had no idea whether or not the President knew about it. 
That he didn't know about it from me. 

Mr. Nields. Did you have any other discussions with 
Mr. McFarlane on the subject of the President's knowledge 
of the diversion? 

Mr. North. I don't think so. 

Mr. Nields. Did you have any conversations with 
Mr. Regan on the subject of the President's knowledge of 
the diversion? 

Mr. North. No. 

Mr. Nields. Did you have any discussions with Paul 
Thompson on the subject of the President's knowledge of the 

■■■■■■: ,: A" ': ^^.j^^lH 



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di^Srsion? 

Mr. North. I don't believe I did, but it is entirely 
possible that Mr. Thompson, Commander Thompson, excuse 
me, was present during one of the discussions I had with 
the Admiral on, for example, the 21st or the 24th, the 
day before I departed the NSC . 

Mr. Nields. Prior to the 21st of November, 1986, did 
you ever discuss the subject of the President's knowledge 
of the diversion with Mr. Thompson? 

Mr. North. I don't believe I did, no. 

Mr. Nields. Did you ever discuss the subject of the 
President's knowledge of the diversion with Mr. Earl or 
anyone else on your staff? 

Mr. North. My sense is that I probably did on the day 
that I departed the NSC and I've had my memory refreshed on 
a discussion which I had with him then related to the 
telephone call, but I don't recall any other discussions 
with Lt. Colonel Earl or Commander Coy or Ms. Hall or 
Ms. Browne on that issue. 

Mr. Nields. Would you describe the conversation that 
you now do recall with Mr. Earl on that subject? 

Mr. North. Well — and again my recollection is still 
very hazy on it but I have been refreshed that I told 
Commander — Lt. Colonel Earl that the President had called 

me, related the conversation as it had occurred, and told 

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Corohel Earl what the President said. "I just didn't know,' 
or words to that effect. 

Mr. Nields. Did you have any conversations on the 
subject of the President's knowledge of the diversion prior 
to November 24, 1986 with anyone else? 

Mr. North. Well, Admiral Poindexter, but aside from 
that — 

Mr. Nields. Yes. We have covered Admiral Poindexter. 
We have covered Attorney General Meese. 

Mr. North. Not that I recall. 

Mr. Nields. No further questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Cheney. Mr. Liman? 

Mr. Liman. No questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Cheney. Mr. Van Cleve? 

Mr. Van Cleve. No questions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Cheney. Senator Inouye? 

Chairman Inouye. You better get the designated 
questioners. 

Mr. Cheney. Any further questions from any member of 
the panel? 

Mr. Mitchell. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Rudman. No questions here, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Trible. No questions, Mr. Chairman. 

Mr. Cheney. Then the session is completed. The 
committee stands adjourned. ^''.- • ' , ' «'5.v"„ v;"" ;; 



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The connnittee will reconvene at 9 a.m. on July 7, 
Russell Senate Office Building, to take public testimony 
from Colonel North. He is instructed to return at that 
time. 

Mr. North. Yes, sir. 

(Whereupon, at 6:45 p.m., the select committees 
adjourned, to reconvene at 9:00 a.m., on Tuesday, July 7, 
1987.) 






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UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. O'BOYLE 

Washington, D.C. 
Friday, May 8, 1987 
Deposition of WILLIAM B. O'BOYLE, called for 
examination pursuant to subpoena, at the Hart Senate Office 
Building, Suite 901, at 10:30 a.m., before Michael G. 
Paulus, a notary public in and for the District of 
Columbia, when were present on behalf of the respective 
parties: 

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ. 
Assistant Majority Counsel 
KENNETH R. BUCK, ESQ. 
Assistant Minority Counsel 
United States House of Representatives 
Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 




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UNCUSSIFIED 



JAMES KAPLAN, ESQ. 

Associate Counsel 

United States Senate Select 
Committee on Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition 

BERT HAMMOND 

On behalf of the witness: 

GUSTAVE H. NEWMAN, ESQ. 

DEBORAH A. SCHWARTZ, ESQ. 

Gustave H. Newman, P.O. 

641 Lexington Avenue 

19th Floor 

New York, New York 10022 



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tINCUSSIFIE 



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PROCEEDINGS 
Whereupon, 

WILLIAM B. O'BOYLE 
was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
, Would you state your name for the record, 
please? 

A My name is William Buchanan O'Boyle. 
Where do you reside, Mr. O'Boyle? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^H New New 
How long have you lived in New York? 
A I have lived in New York since late 1969. 
Q Where did you obtain a college degree? 
A Stanford University. 
In what year? 
A 1968. 

Did you attend any graduate school? 
A Yes. 
Where? 
A 



I attended New York University and Columbia 

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•0 01 01 

.ikepaulus 1 ' University. 

2 ' What fields did you study at those universities? 

3 I A Including Stanford? 

4 I Let's start with the graduate schools. 
j 

5 i A I studied drama performance studies at New York 

6 I University, business at Columbia University. I am 

7 I currently studying cinema studies at the New York 

8 University. 

9 i Did you obtain a degree at either of the 

10 universities in New York? 

11 A Yes. A master of arts from New York University 
1 
1 

12 and a master of science from Columbia University. 

13 What is your occupation at the present time? 

14 I A I am independently wealthy and I own and manage 

15 an oil and gas exploration firm. 

16 ! And you manage your other investments? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Did there come a time when you received a 

19 solicitation for a contribution from a representative of 

20 the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty? 

21 A I was contacted by the National Endowment. I am 

22 not quite sure to say whether I received a solicitation or 



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not. 

When was the first contact? 

A It was in late March of 1986. 

Who contacted you? 

A It was Jane McLaughlin. 

How did she contact you? 

A By telephone. 

_ Do you know the person that referred her to you? 

A. Yes. 

Who was that? 

A His name is Searcy Ferguson. 

Who is Mr. Ferguson? 

A He is an old acquaintance, friend from Dallas, 
Texas, which is my home town. 

Did you know in advance of her call that you 
would be receiving a contact from the National Endowment, 
or as it is often referred to, NEPL? 

A No. 

Q Can you identify the date when this first 
contact occurred? 

A My appointment book is currently in the hands of 
the special prosecutor's office. We don't have copies 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



yet. They are going to supply us copies. But I can tell 
you approximately. It was approximately March 26th to 28th 
of 1986. 

In that first telephone call what did 
Ms. McLaughlin say to you? 

A She told me that she had gotten my name from 
Mr. Ferguson in Texas. She asked me if I would like to 
come down to the White House for a briefing on the 
political and military situation in Nicaragua. That's it. 

Q Did she ask for a contribution in this first 
telephone call? 

A I don't think so. No. 

Did she say anything about the fund-raising 
efforts of her organization? 

A I believe she described her organization as an 
organization which supported the contras. I understood at 
that time that the organization did raise money. 
What was your question again, please? 

Did she say anything about the fund-raising 
efforts of the organization? 

A I don't recall specifically. 

Had you heard of the organization before this 



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likepaulus 1 | telephone call' 



A No. 

Q What did you say in response to Ms. McLaughlin's 
comments? 

A When she invited me to come down to the White 



6 I House, I was interested. 



Did you say you would come? 
A Yes. 

Did you express any views in this conversation 
about the situation in Nicaragua? 

A I don't remember specifically. 

At that time, in March of 1986, what were your 

13 j views with respect to Nicaragua? 

14 A I was alarmed at the fact that the communists 
had gained a foothold in Central America, on the South 
American continent. 

Did you favor an active military response to the 
communist foothold that you saw there? 

A By the United States, do you mean? 

Let's say by the resistance in Nicaragua. Did 
you favor an active military response by the resistance 



22 



within the country? 



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Yes. 



Did you favor United States support for that? 
Yes. 

Including support of military equipment? 
Yes. 

Did you receive any written invitation to this 
meeting at the White House? 
A No. 

0. So the only invitation was the oral invitation 
to come down the day after the telephone call? 
A Yes. 

What arrangements did she make after you arrived 
in Washington? Where were you to go? What did she tell 
you in the phone call? 

A As I recall, she arranged to meet me at the 
airport. I think she also asked for my social security 
number for clearance into the White House area. 
Which airport did you fly into? 
A As I recall, it was National. I came down on 
the shuttle. 

She met your plane? 
A Yes. 




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You had not met her before; is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

How did you recognize her? 

A I think she told me what she would be wearing. 
She described herself and told me what she would be 
wearing. 

How did you travel into Washington from the 
airport? 

A. There was a limousine that she arrived in and 
brought me back into Washington. 

The two of you went into Washington in the 
limousine? 

A Yes. 

Where did you first go in Washington? 

A To the Hay-Adams Hotel. 

Was this in the morning or the afternoon? 

A In the afternoon. 

What happened after you went to the Hay-Adams 
Hotel? 

A As I recall, there were a number of people from 
NEPL and a few other potential contributors there at the 
hotel, and we rendezvoused there at the hotel. 




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Were you in a meeting room at the hotel? 

A If I recall, it was upstairs. There is a kind 
of private dining area on the mezzanine level. 

Who do you recall was there from NEPL? 

A I believe Mr. Channell was there. Of course 
Ms. McLaughlin was there. I 'don't recall any other 
specific person that was there. 

Was Mr. Conrad there? 

A. I don't remember. 

Was Mr. Littledale there? 

A Possibly. 

Do you know Mr. Littledale? 

A I have his name noted in my appointment book, 
but I can't place the face. I did meet a Mr. Littledale. 

Was Mr. Smith there? 

A I don't know. 

Were there any representatives of International 
Business Communications there? 

A Yes. 

Which representatives? 

A I think it was Mr. Littledale. There was 
another name which I had noted down in the appointment book 




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; which is now in the hands of the special prosecutor. 

i 

! Was Mr. Miller there? 

A I don't think so. Not at that time. 
; Did you believe Mr. Littledale was an IBC 
I employee or a NEPL employee? 

A As I recall, there were a couple of people from 
IBC there. I don't know what IBC was except a consulting 
group. I was told it was a consulting group. Actually, I 
believed that they were government agents. 

Q Have you ever met Mr. Frank Gomez? 

A The name doesn't ring a bell. 

Have you ever met David Fischer? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

Have you ever met a Jeffrey Keffer? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

You say there were some other contributors also 
present in the private meeting room at the Hay-Adams that 
afternoon. Which contributors were there that you recall? 

A I don't recall their names. There were one or 
two other people there who I understood were to attend the 
briefing, but I don't recall their names. 

What was the totals^zej^^^^ group in the 



ras the total s i ze^^^hg 

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2 I A It was approximately half a dozen to ten 



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people. Around ten people. 

How long did the group remain at the Hay-Adams 
in the meeting room that afternoon? 

A To my recollection, it was about half an hour. 
Not very long. 

Would you describe this as a get-acquainted 
session? 

A Yes, and a rendezvous prior to going over to the 
Old Executive Office Building. 

Did anyone make any statement or speech to the 
group? 

A No. 

How were you introduced to Mr. Channell? 

A I don't recall exactly. He was there. I don't 
recall exactly what was said. 

Did Ms. McLaughlin introduce you to 
Mr. Channell? 

A I believe so. 

Were you introduced to the other contributors? 



A Yes. 



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I believe you said that you went from the 
Hay-Adams to the Old Executive Office Building. 
A Yes. 

Did you walk over in a group? 

Yes. 

Did Mr. Channell lead the group? 

Yes. 

what happened after you got to the White House 





A 



A 

Q 
grounds. 

A I am taking the Old Executive Office Building to 
be part of the White House. 

Yes. 

A We went through security at the front door, and 
then we went up to a conference room. I don't recall the 
room number, but I believe it was upstairs in the building. 

Approximately what time did you arrive there? 

A It was about five or six in the evening. 

Did all of the group that was at the Hay-Adams 
go over to the Old Executive Office Building? 

A Most of it did. I wasn't keeping count. 

But it was your sense that basically the group 
transferred from the Hay-Adams to the OEOB? 



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A Yes. 

What happened after you arrived at the OEOB? 

A We waited in the conference room for a short 
period of time and then Lieutenant Colonel North arrived. 

Was anyone with him? 

A Not to my recollection, although he was assisted 
at some point by what I took to be an aide who brought in 
some materials or helped him with the slide projector 
machine. 

Had you met Colonel North before? 

A No. 

Were you introduced to him at this conference 
room? 

A Yes. 

Was he introduced to all of the participants? 

A Let me withdraw my answer. I am not sure 
whether we were introduced or not. I think he was 
introduced to us, but I am not sure if we were introduced 
to him. I don't really recall that. 

Who introduced Colonel North to the group? 

A I believe it was either Mr. Channell or 



Ms. McLaughlin. 



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.ikepaulus 1 ; Q Do you recall what was said in this 

2 introduction? 

3 A Not specifically. No. 

4 Can you give me a general sense of what was 

5 j said? 

6 A This was Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North who was 

7 I with the National Security Council, who was going to give 

8 j us a presentation on the political and military situation 

9 t in Nicaragua. 

10 I Q Had you heard of Colonel North before the 

11 I meeting? 
I 

12 I A No. Ms. McLaughlin may have mentioned his name 
I 

13 I to me on the phone when she invited me to come down. I 

14 I think she did, but I had never met him and I didn't know 

15 who that was. 

16 You hadn't read his name in the press before? 

17 A No. 

18 You weren't familiar with his name prior to your 

19 conversation with Ms. McLaughlin? 

20 A That's right. 

21 Approximately how long was the introduction of 
22 



Colonel North? 



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.ikepaulus 1 A Only a few seconds. 

I 

2 i And then Colonel North spoke? 

3 ' A Yes. 

4 j Approximately how long did he speak? 

5 j A About half an hour or 45 minutes. 
I 

6 j Did anyone else speak other than Colonel North 

7 I at this meeting? 

8 ! A , No. 

9 I You mentioned an aide that was with Colonel 

i 

10 j North. What did the aide do? 

11 I A As I recall, there was some problem with the 

12 slide projecting machine, or perhaps he had brought the 

13 1 wrong slides. I can't remember. There was some initial 

14 I problem in getting set up. As I recall, he telephoned an 
1 

15 I aide who came up and assisted him in setting up the 

i 

16 presentation. The aide then left. 

17 1 take it from your answer that a part of his 

18 presentation was the showing of slides. 

19 A Yes. 

20 Would you describe his presentation to the 

21 group? What did he say? What sort of slides did he show? 

22 A The basic theme of his presentation was the 



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Russian influence in Nicaragua and the fact that the 
Nicaraguan government was really an arm of the Russians or 
an arm of an organized communist effort to gain a further 
foothold on the American continent. 

He described, for example, an airfield that had 
been built, that was built with Eastern Bloc aid. It was 
disguised as a civilian airfield but was in fact a military 
airfield. He indicated that that is the airfield that the 
Russians would use to recover their Backfire bombers in 
case of an atomic war with the United States; given that 
they wouldn't make it all the way back to Russia, they 
could recover their bombers in Nicaragua. 

I think he indicated that there were missions 
currently being flownout of Cuba, Russian missions up the 
East Coast of the United States. Some kind of large 
Russian aircraft that flies just outside the 12-mile limit 
every day, up and back. There was some kind of a large 
device on the outside. Nobody knows what is inside the 
device, whether it's a weapon or surveillance equipment of 
some kind. Our jets fly right along with it and back 
again. He said this airfield would allow them to fly the 
same kind of missions up the West Coast as they are now 



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flying up the East Coast- 
He indicated that there was a massive effort 
underway to enlarge the harbors of Nicaragua and that this 
was all being done with Eastern Bloc aid of one kind and 
another. 




He showed photographs of what appeared to be 
cabinet level Nicaraguan government officials involved in 
dope smuggling operations. He indicated that the 
Nicaraguan government activities were to some extent 
financed by involvement in the drug trade. 

He talked about the refugee problem that was 
beginning to be experienced by the neighboring countries 
around Nicaragua and described the potential for a massive 
refugee problem as the communists began to take over more 
and more in Central America; how typically when a communist 
government takes over somewhere between 10 and 20 percent 



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.iiikepaulus 1 ' of the population leaves the country, and that would mean 

2 I that there would be millions and millions of refugees 

3 i coming into the United States and other neighboring Central 

4 I American countries from Nicaragua and other nearby 

! 

5 I countries as the communists took over. 
j 

6 i He indicted that the military equipment that was 

7 I being supplied to the Nicaraguans by the Cubans and the 

8 { Russians and the various other people who were supplying 

9 j them was not merely defensive equipment but was offensive 

I 

10 in nature, was the kind of equipment that could be used to 

11 expand past Nicaragua. 

12 I I forget the exact details, but I think there 
I 

13 j were a couple of covert Nicaraguan agents who were caught 

14 I in a nearby country who were disguised as Americans. I 

15 think they had drugs in their car and they were on their 

16 way somewhere on a secret mission for the Nicaraguan 

17 government; that they had American identification on them; 

18 and they were made to look like American agents but they 

19 were in fact Nicaraguan agents. 

20 As I recall, those are the highlights of his 

21 presentation. 

22 Q What slides did he show? 



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A The one I remember in particular was the 
photograph of one of the ministers of Nicaragua involved in 
the dope smuggling operation at the airport, involved with 
a group of people who were loading drugs on an airplane. I 
don't specifically recall other slides. There were a 
number of slides and maps and satellite photographs. 

Did he talk any about the resistance activities 
in Nicaragua? 

A Yes. 

What did he say about that? 

A I don't recall the specifics of what he said. 
The substance of what he said was that they were having a 
difficult time because of the intermittent supply of funds 
from the United States. 

Did he discuss any specific needs of the 
resistance fighters? 

A I think he described some hospital needs. As 
far as I recall, at that time he didn't discuss other 
needs. As I recall, at that time he also described the 
recent arrival in Nicaragua of the Soviet HIND helicopter 
gunships, which were making life even more difficult and 
dangerous for the resistance fighters. 



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Did he comment in any way about a possible 
response to the HIND gunships? 

A Not at that time, as far as I recall. 

Q Were there any questions from any of the 
contributors? 

A Yes. 

What questions do you recall? 

A I don't recall what the questions were. 

Did anyone ask "how can we help?" in substance? 

A Not at that time. 

Q Most of Colonel North's comments that you have 
described concern a serious problem in Nicaragua and 
various aspects of the problem. What did he comment in the 
way of a possible solution to the problem? 

A As I recall, there was some talk about the 
congressional vote on resuming aid to the contras. As far 
as I recall, he didn't propose a solution at that time. 

Did Mr. Channell make any comments either during 
Colonel North's remarks or after Colonel North's remarks 
while you were in the conference room? 

A Not that I recall. 

How did the meeting conclude? 



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A After a brief question period at the end of the 
presentation Colonel North left and the rest of us left. 

Where did you go? 

A We went back to the Hay-Adams. 

Approximately what time was it at this point? 

A I don't recall exactly. I'd say between six and 
seven in the evening. 

Q What happened after you got back to the 
Hay-Adams? 

A There was a cocktail party for this group that _ 
had been to the presentation. 

Q Did anyone else attend the cocktail party? 

A I recall Mr. Miller was there. 

Is that Richard Miller? 

A I don't recall his first name. The one who 
recently pled guilty to, I think, conspiracy charges. 

That is the Mr. Miller of International Business 
Communications, or IBC? 

A Yes . 

Q Was the first time you believe you met 
Mr. Miller at the cocktail party? 



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Who introduced you to Mr. Miller? 

A I don't recall. It was just a group of people 
and everyone was being introduced to everyone else. So I 
don't recall exactly how I was introduced. 

Other than Mr. Miller, did anyone else attend 
the cocktail party who had not been at the briefing or the 
afternoon meeting at the Hay-Adams? 

A I seem to remember a woman named Angela who 
worked, for NEPL. 

Q Would that be Angela Davis? 

A I dsn't know her last name. 

There may have been one or two other people 
there. I don't recall specifically. 

Q How long did the cocktail party continue? 

A Half an hour. Something like that. Forty-five 
minutes . 

You remember Mr. Miller and Angela and the group 
that had been there in the afternoon. 

A Yes. 

Anyone else? 

A In my notes I had the names Cliff Smith and Kris 
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10 01 01 
.ikepaulus 1 were all people that I met. Again, I don't specifically 

2 I recall whether they were all there before the presentation 

3 ' and after, or whether maybe some had come after and hadn't 

4 I been there before. 

i 

5 I You said, in your notes. Did you make 

6 j contemporaneous notes of the meeting that you attended in 

7 Washington in March 1986? 

8 j A With Colonel North, you mean? 

9 ! Both with Colonel North and the meeting at the 

10 Hay-Adams. You indicated your notes indicate that you had 

11 met Mr. Conrad, Mr. Littledale, and so forth. 

12 A They weren't extensive notes. I simply noted 

13 I the names of a couple people that I had talked to, that I 

14 wanted to remember in my appointment calendar. I didn't 
i 

15 [ make an outline of what was discussed at the meeting or 
i 

16 anything like that. 

17 Is this a calendar that you carry in your 

18 pocket? 

19 A Yes. 

20 So when you would meet people you would note 

21 their name in the book? 

22 A Yes. If I wanted to remember their names, I 



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likepaulus 1 would note them down. 

2 I That is the book that you have given to the 

3 i independent counsel? 

4 A Yes. 

5 And you don't have a copy of that now? 

6 I A Not now. 

7 I Did Colonel North attend the cocktail party? 

8 1 A No. 

I 

9 I 0. What do you recall were the subjects that were 

10 discussed at the cocktail party? 

11 I A Of course everyone was talking in one way or 
I 

12 i another about the presentation. At a certain point during 
I 

13 I the cocktail party I indicated that I wished that there was 

14 some way to supply arms to the contras. 

15 To whom did you say that? 

16 A I think it was to either Cliff Smith or Kris 

17 Littledale. Without seeing a picture, I couldn't remember 

18 who it was that I first mentioned it to, but these are the 

19 names that I have. 

20 Prior to this cocktail party, Mr. O'Boyle, had 

21 you given any indication to Ms. McLaughlin or anyone else 

22 in NEPL that you were prepared to make a contribution? 



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A No. 

Did you indicate during the cocktail party that 
you were prepared to make a contribution? 

A Yes. Let me rephrase that. I didn't commit 
myself at that point, but I indicated that I was 
interested. 

What did you say and to whom did you say it? 

A That is what I was just describing. My 
indication to either Mr. Smith or Mr. Littledale was that I 
would like to be able to help the contras by supplying arms 
of some kind, and I asked if there was some way to do that. 

Did you mention a dollar figure? 

A A dollar figure was discussed but in the context 
of a specific weapon. 

What was the dollar figure? 

A $20,000. 

What was the weapon? 

A A Blowpipe antiaircraft missile. 

Who mentioned this type of weapon? 

A It was the person that I brought the subject up 
with. In other words, I said is there something that can 
be done, is there some way to contribute. I don't recall 




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the exact words, but I indicated a willingness to 
contribute and a curiosity as to how much was needed and 
how much these different kinds of weapons cost, and I got 
the information back from this person that, for example, 
for $20,000 you could buy a Blowpipe antiaircraft missile. 
That's the general trend of the conversation. 

And you believe that was with Mr. Smith or 
Mr. Littledale? 

A I think so, yes. 

Do you recall prior to this cocktail party a 
discussion of a contribution of $10,000 to NEPL? 

A I received from NEPL at some point their package 
of material. I don't recall when it was. There may have 
been sort of a general request in their standard mailing, 
you might say, that I am not aware of at this particular 
time. But as far as I remember, prior to this discussion I 
have just described there was no discussion of a specific 
amount. 

As we are talking about it it is starting to 
come back a little bit. I seem to remember Ms. McLaughlin 
saying something about contributors who are willing to give 
at least $10,000, something like tha^ and that I might 




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.ikepaulus 1 : fall into that category, but I don't recall specifically 
2 I when that was said or exactly what was said. 



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Q Your telephone conversation with Ms. McLaughlin 
was the day before the meeting; is that right? 

A Right. 

You recall there was at least some discussion of 
a $10,000 contribution in that telephone conversation? 

A I remember something about a discussion of a 
$10,000 contribution. It's a very vague recollection. I 
don't recall exactly when it was said. 

But it was a conversation with Ms. McLaughlin? 

A Again, this is a hazy recollection, but I think 
so. 

And it could have been in the telephone 
conversation? 

A Yes. 

Or it could have been in your meeting with her 
in the limousine? 

A Yes. As I recall, and this is very indistinct, 
I think she might have said something along the lines that 
they were looking for people who could give at least 
$10,000, or something like that. It wasn't so much a 



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..likepaulus 1 ! direct pitch for a specific contribution; it was more that 

2 i they were looking for a general category of contributors. 

3 Was this, then, the general category that would 

4 be invited to the meetings at the White House? 

5 A I think so. But again, this is a very hazy 

I 

6 I recollection of a very brief discussion. So I'm not sure. 

i 

7 I Other than your discussion at the cocktail party 

8 with Mr. Smith or Mr. Littledale about the missile with a 
I 

9 I price of $20,000, did you have any other discussions during 

10 j the cocktail party with respect to military support for the 

I 

11 I contras? 
I 

12 j A I must say, honestly I don't remember 
I 

13 specifically during the cocktail party. The general theme, 

i 

14 I can say, was about military support for the contras. 

15 Mainly whether Congress was going to approve military 

16 support for the contras. So that was being talked about. 

17 Did you talk with Mr. Channell during the 

18 cocktail party? 

19 A Yes. 

20 What did Mr. Channell say that you recall? 

21 A Nothing that I can recall. There were no 

22 substantive conversations. It was just a cocktail party 




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and socializing. 

How long did the cocktail party continue? 

A Half an hour or 45 minutes. 

Q What happened after the cocktail party? 

A I had not originally been planning to stay for 
the evening. I was going to go back to New York after this 
presentation. I think it was during the cocktail party 
that Mr. Channel pressed me to stay, and I agreed to stay 
for dinner, which was following the cocktail party, and 
then overnight rather than rush to get back to New York 
that evening. Either he or Jane McLaughlin indicated that 
they had gone ahead and made reservations for me right 
there at the Hay-Adams. 

Q Do you remember if this urging by Mr. Channell 
for you to stay for dinner and overnight occurred after 
your discussion with Mr. Smith or Mr. Littledale about the 
missile? 

A I don't remember if it was before or after. 

Did a dinner then follow the cocktail party? 

A Yes. 

Where was that held? 

A Right there in the same place. 




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Same room? 

A I can't remember whether it was exactly the same 
room or not, but it was right there in the Hay-Adams. 

Q Were there a number of small tables in the room, 
or did everyone sit at one table? 

A There were a number of small tables. 

How many people were at your table? 

A As I recall, there were six, including myself. 
There may have been eight, but I think it was six. 




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people 

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Do you recall who sat next to you? 

Mr. Miller sat next to me. 

Did Mr. Channell sit next to you? 

No. I don't recall the names of the other 



Did Ms. McLaughlin sit at your table? 

I don't think so. 

How would you describe the appearance of 
Mr. Miller, his height, hair color, and so forth? 

A He's medium height, I would say, between 5-10 
and 6 feet tall, blond hair, somewhat strikingly blond 
hair, which is combed back. I would say he is in his early 
30s, medium build, neither heavyset nor slim. 




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During the dinner or after the dinner did anyone 
make a speech? 

A Not that I recall. After the dinner there was a 
presentation. Not exactly a speech. 

Who made that and what was it? 

A There were television commercials that were 
being produced by NEPL or funded by NEPL, and they were in 
support of the contras. A number of these television 
commercials were shown to the group. 

Did Mr. Channell give any comments on the 
commercials? 

A Someone did. I don't recall whether it was 
Mr. Channell or Mr. Miller or someone else in that group. 
But there were some comments that were made*, 

Q What were the comments? 

A As I recall, along the lines of urging the 
people present to fund the airing of these commercials. I 
remember one particularly dramatic fact was that the 
photographer who took some of the footage for one of the 
commercials had been killed shortly after he had taken the 
footage, because it had been taken inside Nicaragua and 
when he had been discovered by the Nicaraguan authorities 



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.nikepaulus 1 he had been killed. 

2 I How many commercials were shown? 

3 1 A I think it was three or four. 

4 j Q What was the subject matter of the commercials 

5 I that you saw? 

6 I A As I recall, they were different slants on 

7 support of the contras in one respect or another. 

8 ' Were you told the purpose of the commercials? 

9 1 A To drum up support for the resumption of funding 

10 I for the contras. 

I 

11 [ Was this to be support in Congress for the 

12 i resumption of funding? 

13 I A Grass roots support for the support of the 

I 

14 i contras. 

15 I Were you told that these commercials were going 
! 

16 to be directed to any particular media markets? 

17 A I don't really remember if that was discussed. 

18 Any particular places that they were to be 

19 shown, you mean? 

20 Q Yes. 

21 A Not that I remember. 

22 From my notes here, areas of legislators who 



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were opposed to the contras. 

MR. NEWMAN: Just SO the record is clear, they 
are not his notes. 

THE WITNESS: My counsel's notes. 
I don't recall whether this is an inference on 
my part or whether this was actually said, but my 
understanding was to go to those areas where there was a 
lack of support for the contras and to put these 
commercials in there. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

During this dinner were contributions sought for 
that purpose? 

A As I recall, yes. 

By whom? 

A By NEPL as an organization. I seem to remember 
some printed material that asked for a minimum contribution 
of $30,000. I don't recall if there was a person who 
actually made that pitch. 

And this was to be used, you understood, to fund 
these television commercials that were shown after the 



dinner? 



Yes, 



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...ikepaulus 1 ! That was the purpose of the contribution pitch 

2 i in the printed material? 

3 i A Yes. 

4 I I should say that in my counsel's notes I have 

5 in areas where there were legislators who were not in 

6 support of the contras, to place the commercials there to 

7 influence them to support the contras. 

8 Were there any particular legislators mentioned 

9 I or any particular districts mentioned? 

10 A Not that I recall. 

11 Let me put that another way. I think there may 

12 have been some mentioned, but I don't recall who they were. 

13 i Q Who mentioned them? 

I 

14 A I don't remember. 

15 Would it be Mr. Channell? 

16 A I really don't remember which one of the group 

17 might have mentioned them. 

18 During the dinner did Mr. Channell come to your 

19 table and speak to you at any point? 

20 A Yes. 

21 What did he say? 

' 22 A This was near the end of the dinner. I think it 



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.ikepaulus 1 may have been before the presentation of the coiranercials . 

2 j He came over and he said that he understood that I had 

3 offered to possibly make what they considered a large 

4 I contribution with the intent of supplying arms of some kind 

5 to the contras. He said that there was a small group of 

I 

6 I people in the United States that made this kind of 

7 ! contribution. He indicated perhaps I might want to join 
j 

8 ^ this group or become one of this small group of people that 

9 in effect supported the President's desire to support the 

10 I contras in this way. He asked if I would meet with him and 

11 I Colonel North again in the morning for breakfast. 

12 What did you say? 

13 A I said I would meet with them. 

14 i When he made these comments to you did he come 
i 

15 I to your table and sit down In an empty chair, or did he 
i 

16 I come next to your chair and stand and make these comments 

17 to you? Physically what was the arrangement? 

18 A As 1 recall, there was an empty chair. I think 

19 it may have been the chair that Mr. Mil^r had previously 

20 occupied. Toward the end of the dinner people were moving 

21 around a little bit. He pulled the chair up and slid over 

22 next to me and said this out of earshot of anyone else. 



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Q Did he identify any of the other contributors 
that were in this special group? 

A Not at that time. 

Did he later? 

A Yes. 

Who did he identify later? 

A He mentioned one of the Hunt brothers of Texas, 
the well known oil millionaire Hunt brothers. I think it 
was Bunker Hunt. The name Ramsey was also mentioned in a 
later conversation. I don't recall whether it was 
Mr. Channell or Colonel North who mentioned him. There was 
a couple who was identified who had bought some radio 
equipment for the contras, but he didn't mention their 
names. He didn't identify them specifically. 

Did he later identify the amount of 
contributions from Mr. Hunt? 

A I seem to remember him mentioning a figure over 
a million dollars. 

What about Mr. Ramsey? 

A I don't think he mentioned specific amounts by 
Mr. Ramsey. 

Did you know Mr. Ramsey? 



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Did you know Mr. Hunt? 

Members of my family know the Hunt family, 
4 I because we're both from the same town and in some ways in 



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the same business. I may have met him in the distant past, 
but I don't really know him. 

Going back to the dinner at the Hay-Adams after 
the briefing, Mr. Channell invited you to breakfast the 
next morning with Colonel North and you accepted the 
invitation. What occurred that evening after this, that 
you recall? 

A Nothing. After the presentation the NEPL group 
broke up. Everybody went their separate ways. I went to 
bed upstairs in the Hay-Adams. 

Did you meet the next morning with Mr. Channell 
and Colonel North? 

A Yes . 

Anyone else present? 

A No. 

Where was the meeting? 

A At the Hay-Adams, in the main dining room. 

What time did you meet? 



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..likepaulus I ' A It was approximately eight in the morning. 

2 I How long did the meeting continue? 

3 I A I believe that Colonel North was there for about 

4 I half an hour and then he left. As I recall, Mr. Channell 
I 

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5 I was there before Colonel North arrived and after he left. 

6 j I was with Mr. Channell perhaps a total of an hour to an 

7 I hour and a half and with Colonel North for half an hour to 

8 1 45 minutes. 

9 i starting with your meeting with Mr. Channell 
! 

10 before Colonel North arrived, what did Mr. Channell say? 

11 A I don't recall specifically what he said. My 

12 i general recollection is that it was something of a 

13 . continuation of the discussion that we had the night before 

14 j after dinner, which was that there was this small group of 

15 people who supported the President's wish to support the 

16 contras and were giving money for weapons and that I might 

17 join that group. 

18 He also indicated that he had checked me out 

19 overnight. By that, I assume that he meant that it is 

20 possible using the government computer system to check 

21 somebody out pretty fast. I don't know whether this was a 

22 fund-raising ploy or whether this was for real, but I 



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.iiikepaulus 1 thought it was for real at the time. He said that this 

2 ; group consisted mainly of reputable people; it wasn't a 

3 : group of just anybody; he said there were a lot of people 

i 

4 ! who wanted to join the group, perhaps people with criminal 

5 j records and whatever, but they wouldn't allow anybody like 

6 j that in this group. I assumed by what he said that he 

I 

7 I meant he had checked me on some kind of a national security 

8 i computer setup and found that I checked out. 

9 I Did he explain the reason you were going to be 

10 meeting with Colonel North? 

11 j A I don't know if he in so many words gave an 
I 

12 j explanation for the reason. My understanding was we were 

13 to continue this discussion about the supply of weapons to 

I 

14 the contras. 

15 I How long was this discussion with Mr. Channell 

16 1 before Colonel North arrived? 

17 A It was brief. I don't even know whether you 

18 would quite call it a discussion. 

19 Five or ten minutes? 

20 A Something like that. We were really waiting for 

21 Colonel North to come and talking briefly in the meanwhile. 

22 What hAOPengd after Colonel North arrived? 




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.ikepaulus 1 A As I recall, Mr. Channell indicated to Colonel 

2 i North that I was willing to provide funds for the purchase 

3 I of weapons and Colonel North began to give a detailed 

4 account of what were the weapons needs of the contras at 

5 that particular time. 

6 I Also, I should say Colonel North indicated that 

7 i he personally could not ask for money, that he was not part 

8 of a fund-raising effort himself, that he was simply there, 

9 1 as I recall, to provide technical information. He made it 

10 very clear that he could not ask for money because he was 

I 

11 I working for the government. 
! 

12 i . Do you know what prompted that comment? Was 

13 I that in response to some comment you made or Mr. Channell 

14 i made? 

15 A 1 don't think it was in response to a specific 

16 comment; it was more in response to the situation. Because 

17 there I was, considering giving money, and there was 

18 Mr. Channell and Colonel North there, and he wanted to make 

19 the relationship clear to me that he was not asking for 

20 money and that he could not ask for money as a 

21 representative of the United States Government. 

22 You say he described the weapons needs of the 



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..likepaulus 1 contras. 

2 ! A Yes. 

3 ' Did he refer to any document? 

4 I A As I recall, he had a small notebook which he 

5 ! referred to from time to time. 

6 j Did he show you the notebook? 

7 ; A No. He pulled it out and looked at it, but he 

8 didn't show it to me so that I could see what was written 

9 in it, 

10 I What needs did he identify? 

11 : A He indicated the contras needed several million 

12 rounds of NATO ammunition. I think it was called NATO 7 

13 ; point something. It was a description of the kind of 

14 ammunition. I think at that point he also indicated that 

15 they needed another kind of ammunition, which was an 

16 Eastern Bloc type of ammunition. He explained that the 

17 contras often used Eastern Bloc weapons because that is the 

18 nature of counterinsurgency, to use the weapons of the 

19 group in power. He indicated that they needed antiaircraft 

20 missiles to shoot down the helicopter gunships that were 

21 being supplied by the Russians. And there was some 

I 

22 discussion about different types of antiaircraft missiles. 




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The terms "Blowpipe" and "Stingers" were mentioned. 

Were any costs mentioned? 

A Yes. The cost of the missiles were mentioned. 
The cost of Blowpipe missiles was mentioned as S20,000 each 
and you had to buy them in packs of ten. He also talked 
about a kind of aircraft that was needed, which were these 

7 I Maule aircraft. 

8 I What was the purpose of the aircraft? 

9 A As I understood it, there were two purposes. 



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One was to resupply or to supply the contras with whatever 
supplies they might need by dropping the supplies out of 
the aircraft. The other was a kind of reconnaissance 
mission where they could fly along and undertake 
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What other types of military items did he 
describe? 

A He talked about ammunition, antiaircraft 
missiles, the airplane. As far as I can recall, that's 
about it. 

How long was Colonel North at the breakfast? 

About half an hour. 

Then you continued to meet with Mr. Channell? 



Yes. 



What happened after Colonel North left? 

The substance of what happened is that I told 
Mr. Channell that I would think all of this over and get 
back to him right away and let him know whether I wanted to 
go ahead and make a contribution or not. 

You said that Colonel North stated that he could 



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.uikepaulus 1 ' not request a contribution. Did Mr. Channell request a 

2 contribution after Colonel North left? 

3 j A I would say that this was more of an offer on my 

4 I part. I don't know quite how you would describe it. I had 

5 I been the one to say that I was willing to give money and 
i 

6 I Mr. Channell indicated, of course, that he was willing to 

7 I receive it. I don't know quite whether you call it an 

8 i offer or a solicitation. 

9 You indicated an interest in becoming a part of 

10 the select group? 

11 A Yes. 

I 

12 ! I am just reminded of something here. At some 

13 j point, and I think it was at that meeting, or it may have 

14 been the evening before — certain elements of these 

15 conversations, I can't recall whether they took place the 

16 morning after or the night before — but Mr. Channell 

17 indicated to me that if one were to give as much as 

18 $J00,000 that President Reagan would meet with the person 

19 who was giving the money and thank him for the 

20 contribution. The way he put, as I recall, was that he 

21 would spend 15 minutes alone with this person, spend a few 

22 minutes chatting with him, and by spending the time with 



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likepaulus 1 him would indicate his appreciation for the extraordinary 

2 j contribution that this person was making to national 

3 ! security. 

4 ! Did he identify any persons who made such a 

t 

5 contribution and had met with the President? 

6 A He indicated that there were people who had met 

7 j with the President. I don't think he named any names. 

8 ; I also recall that at some point he mentioned 

9 that these meetings, if my recollection is correct, were 

10 not on the record. 

11 What did you understand that to mean? 
I 

12 I A That they were not logged in on the normal 

13 { appointment calendars that the President keeps, the 

14 I implication being that this was so secret that the 
i 

15 President wanted to keep it so not everybody in the White 

16 i House knew what was going on. 

17 I am also reminded that Mr. Channell gave his 

18 home address for this contribution. 

19 I don't recall the specific words or exactly 

20 what Mr. Channell said, but the substance simply was that I 

21 would go home, think this over, and then if I were to make 

22 a contribution for the purposes we discussed, I should send 



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this to his home address. He gave me his home address. 

Mr. Channell had described to you the select 
group that made contributions for military support. Did 
you understand his comment with respect to the contributors 
who made a $300,000 contribution and could meet with the 
President to be a part of this select group that he had 
referred to? 

A Yes . 

Also, he indicated that one could specify what 
kind of support he wanted to give. For example, if you 
felt uncomfortable with the idea of giving military 
support, you could give some kind of nonmilitary support. 
I think it was in that context that he mentioned a couple 
that had given radio equipment. If you wanted to give 
military support, you could do that. 

And you told Mr. Channell you would consider 
making a contribution? 

A Yes. 

Was that the way the meeting ended? 

A Yes. 

Q Did you go back to New York then? 

A Yes. 




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.ikepaulus 1 ; There is something else. In the course of 

2 ! discussing the weaponry needs we were discussing how much 

3 ] the weapons cost, and I seem to remember that during the 

i 

4 j meeting with Mr. Channell and Colonel North it was 

i 

5 j expressed to me that two or three million dollars worth of 

6 weapons would get us through to the point where the 

7 1 congressional money would start to flow again. 

8 Did Mr. Channell suggest that you contribute 

9 $300,000 so you could meet with the President?* 

10 A He didn't pin down the amount that way. He 

11 indicated that a contribution of that level would qualify 
I 

12 I me, so to speak, for a meeting with the President. He 
I 

13 didn't limit it to $300,000. During later discussions, and 

14 I can't recall exactly the point of the discussion, but he 

15 I did suggest that I give enough to qualify to meet with the 

16 President and he also indicated that he would like me to 

17 function as a fund-raiser. What he suggested was that I 

18 give money myself and agree to go out and raise monay from 

19 other people that I might know and meet with the President 

20 in conjunction with doing this. 

21 This occurred at a later conversation? 

22 A I don't recall specifically. I think he may 



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have indicated at this time that someone who gave as much 
as $300,000 could meet with the President and then in a 
later conversation urged me to bring my contribution up to 
t+iat level and past that level and function as a 
fund-raiser myself and meet with the President. 
(Recess . ) 



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MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Mr. O'Boyle, after the breakfast meeting with 
Colonel North that we just discussed did you make a 
contribution to NEPL for the purchase of military equipment 
for the contras? 
A Yes. 

. How many days later did you make the 
contribution? 

A It was three or four days later. 
Did you have any further conversations with 
Colonel North or Mr. Channell between the breakfast meeting 
and the time you made the contribution? 
A Yes. 

MR. NEWMAN: Listen carefully to what he said. 
THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, 
please? 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Did you have any further discussions with 

Colonel North or Mr. Channell between the breakfast meeting 
that you described and the time you made the contribution 
three or four days later? 



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MR. NEWMAN: The way that question is phrased, I 
think you are making it difficult. I don't understand what 
you mean by made the contribution. The scenario is he 
wrote the check and went down there without a prior 
appointment and delivered the check. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Let's focus on the writing of the check. Did 
you have any conversations with Colonel North or 
Mr. Channell between the breakfast meeting and the time you 
wrote the check? 

A No. To my recollection, none. 

You stated that Mr. Channell had asked that you 
send any contribution to his residence. 

A Yes, via Federal Express. 

How did you deliver the check? 

A In person. 

To whom and where? 

A I came directly to Washington either Monday or 
Tuesday of the next week and hand delivered the check to 
Mr. Channell. I believe I actually handed it to him at the 
Hay-Adams Hotel. 

Had you made a prior appointment? 

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What was the amount of the check? 

$130,000. 

How did you find Mr. Channell when you came to 



Washington that day? 

A I went from the airport to the NEPL office and 
told the staff members there that I had something very 
important that I needed to see Mr. Channell about right 
away. Shortly after that Jane McLaughlin took me over to 
the Hay-Adams Hotel. I had dinner with Ms. McLaughlin and 
then Mr. Channell arrived. 

Was this at midday or was this in the evening? 

A In the evening. 

Did you tell Ms. McLaughlin what you had for 
Mr. Channell? 

A As I recall, I did not. 

Did you tell her you had a contribution? 

A I don't think so. 

You say you told her you had something important 
for Mr. Channell? 

A I either said I have something important for him 
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■nikepaulus 1 1 need to see him right away. 

2 I What did she say in response? 

3 ': A I think it was actually the staff members at the 



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NEPL office that I told this to, not Ms. McLaughlin. So 
they arranged for Ms. McLaughlin to come and take me over 
to the Hay-Adams and then they tracked down Mr. Channell. 

Mr. Channell joined you and Ms. McLaughlin at 
the Hay-Adams? 

A Yes . 

Did Ms. McLaughlin stay after Mr. Channell 
arrived? 

A Briefly, and then she left. 

And then you and Mr. Channell had a meal 
together; is that correct? 

A No. I had just finished having a meal with 
Ms. McLaughlin, and so Mr. Channell and I had drinks 
together. 

During the time you were with Mr. Channell what 
did you say to him and what did he say to you? 

A I gave him the check and I said this is for the 
purchase of the two Maule aircraft, and he was very pleased 
and said thank you very much. I don't recall his exact 



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words, but he was appreciative. I think at that point he 
discussed the possibility that I might raise more money or 
give more money. I think he went out to call Colonel North 
to come over, to see if he could get Colonel North to join 
us. 

Q Did Colonel North join you at the Hay-Adams? 

A Yes. 

Q How long did Colonel North spend with you? 

A About half an hour. 

Was there discussion of your contribution with 
Colonel North? 

A Yes. Mr. Channell showed Colonel North the 
check. Colonel North again reviewed the further needs of 
the contras. 

What did Colonel North say after Mr. Channell 
showed him the check? Did he express appreciation for the 
check? 

A I think he just looked at it and nodded. I 
can't remember exactly what he said. 

But after seeing the check he then proceeded to 
describe further military equipment needs of the contras? 



Yes. 



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likepaulus 1 I Were these different needs than he had spoken to 

2 you about the week before? 

3 A Essentially they were the same. I think he 

4 ! indicated there were some slight differences. The Blowpipe 

5 I missiles, I think, were no longer available. One option 

6 that I had was to give $200,000 to buy a ten-pack of 

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essentially they were the same needs. We discussed 
ammunition, weapons, the same list pretty much as he had 
discussed before at the breakfast meeting the previous 
Friday. 

Was there any suggestion about the size of a 
further contribution from you? 

A As I recall, in the course of discussing the 
weapons needs costs were mentioned, and I got the feeling 
that they could use as much as I could give. 

Was there any discussion of a meeting with the 
President while Colonel North was present? 

A Yes. 

What was said? 




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..likepaulus 1 , A I think Channell again indicated that if I were 

2 to agree to go out and either give more money myself or 

3 i function in some kind of a fund-raising capacity, or both, 

4 that I could meet with the President and that he would 

5 I express his approval and appreciation of all of this, and I 

6 I indicated that's not why I was doing this, to get a meeting 

7 j with the President. 

8 1 I think I mentioned before that it was mentioned' 

9 that these meetings with the President were off the record 

! 

10 j or some of them were off the record. 

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11 I Q What did Colonel North say about meetings with 

i 

12 j the President? 

13 A Throughout my various discussions with him I 

14 seem to recall that he indicated a number of times that he 

15 I met with the President and was responsible for briefing him 

16 on certain affairs. I got the impression that Colonel 

17 North met with the President on a fairly regular basis. 

18 What was his comment or response to 

19 Mr. Channell' s remark that if you contributed $300,000 you 

20 would have the opportunity for a private meeting with the 

21 President? 

22 A I don't think he had any particular response. 



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But he was present when Mr. Channell said this 
to you? 

A Yes. Again, I don't recall the exact words 
Mr. Channell used, but I remember saying in Colonel North's 
presence something about, well, I'm not so sure I even want 
to meet with the President. Something along those lines. 
Or that's not the reason why I'm doing this. I remember 
Colonel North was there. I don't recall exactly what it 
was that Mr. Channell said to me, the exact words. 

Q But in substance did he say that if you gave a 
donation of a certain amount, in the range of $300,000 or 
more, that you would have the opportunity to meet with the 
President? 

A Yes . 

Did Colonel North say anything about the 
substance of his briefings with the President? 

A It may not have been at this particular meeting 
that he said this. I recall in a general way that Colonel 
North said that he met with the President and briefed him. 
My recollection is that it was on a routine, regular 
basis. I don't recall what the subject of the briefing 



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Did he indicate that he reported to the 



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A No, not that I recall. 

During this meeting with Colonel North at the 
Hay-Adams which you have been describing you said he again 
reviewed the military needs. Did he take out his notebook 
again? 

A . I think he did. 

What else did he say during this meeting? 
A He had talked previously about the drug 
smuggling operations of the Sandinistas, and I asked him if 
there was any way that the United States could intercept 
any of these large quantities of money that were involved 
in the drug traffic to fund the contras with, and he said, 
no, that that was not an option. He cited moral grounds 
for that. He said that if we got involved in any kind of 
drug smuggling operations in an effort to fund the contras 
we would be undermining our moral position. 

He did, by way of anecdote, tell some kind of a 
story about how he had been involved in some respect in 
some kind of a drug arrest or the arrest of a drug dealer 
where there were millions of dollars in a suitcase or in a 




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trunk of a car, by way of illustrating how this could be 
done, to take the money and use it to buy arms with. But 
he indicated that it had been turned in to the proper 
authorities. 

What had been the nature of his involvement in 
this incident? 

A I don't know. I got the impression that he was 
somehow involved in a peripheral way. 

' Did he indicate when this incident had occurred? 

A I think he did, but I don't recall exactly when 
it was. My vague recollection is it was in 1985 or 1986. 

How did the meeting with Colonel North conclude 
on this occasion? 

A After Colonel North had been present for about 
half an hour or so he left. I don't recall the exact bit 
of conversation that preceded the closing of the meeting. 

In his presence there was a discussion of a 
possible further contribution by you, was there not? 

A Yes. 

And a discussion of the size of the contribution 
and if it exceeded S300,000 you would have the opportunity 
to meet with the President? 



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.iiikepaulus 1 j A This is Mr. Channell talking now. I believe it 

2 i was in North's presence. That if I were to give more than 

3 j 3300,000 I could meet with the President. It may have been 

4 i at a later point, but I think it was also at that point 

5 i that Channell indicated to me I might also act as a 

6 i fund-raiser myself. 

7 I What happened after Colonel North left? 

I 

8 i A Mr. Channell and I spent a few more minutes 

9 I together and then I left. 

! 

10 j Did Mr. Channell make a further request for 

11 I contributions? 

1 
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12 i A I think the discussion that we had been having 

13 I all along continued, you might say. I left on the note 

i 

14 that I would give all this some further thought. 

15 What did you decide after giving it further 

16 thought? 

17 A I thought about this for a few days and then I 

18 sent Mr. Channell a Mailgram which said in effect I support 

19 your efforts but I feel I have gone as far as I can go and 

20 I don't want to function as a fund-raiser myself and I 

21 don't want to give any more money. 

22 Did you consult with anyone else in reaching 



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likepaulus 1 ! this decision? 

2 ' A I had spoken to my wife after the breakfast 

3 ' meeting with Mr. Channell and Colonel North, the original 

I 

4 1 breakfast meeting. I had spoken to her briefly over that 

5 weekend. I don't know whether you call that a consultation 

6 I or not. I told her in a general sort of way what was going 

7 on. 

8 i Did you speak to anyone else? 

i 

9 ! A No. 

i 

10 I What about after this second meeting with 

11 i Colonel North and Mr. Channell? 

12 i A Other than my wife, I didn't speak to anyone. I 

13 i think my bookkeeper drew up the check, but she had no idea 

14 i what it was for, what this was all about. 

15 { I take it you had no communications with Colonel 

16 North or Mr. Channell between the meeting you described at 

17 j the Hay-Adams and the time you sent the Mailgram you just 

18 referred to. 

19 A My best recollection is that I didn't. There 

20 may have been a phone call, but I don't think so. My 

21 recollection is there was no further communication. 

22 Did you have any communication with Colonel 



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.nikepaulus 1 North or Mr. Channell after you sent the Mailgram that you 



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I have referred to? 

A Yes, I did. 

What was the next occasion, with either? 

A I got a call from someone at NEPL — I don't 
remember who it was, whether it was Mr. Channell or 
possibly Ms. McLaughlin — indicating that they wanted to 
have lunph with me. They were coming up to New York and 
they wanted to have lunch with me. This was a couple weeks 
after this meeting at the Hay-Adams. I think it was on the 
18th of April that they were coming to New York, and I in 
fact did have lunch with them on the 18th of April. I had 
lunch with Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad. 



Just the three of you? 

Yes. 

where did you have lunch? 

At the Union League Club in New York. 

What did Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad say at this 




A 


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lunch? 

A They indicated to me that this entire process of 
my making a contribution had happened so quickly that they 
didn't have the opportunity to give me all the 



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mikepaulus 1 presentations they wanted to give to me, to show me the 

2 J courtesies they wanted to show to me, and would I be 

3 ! willing to come down to Washington for another meeting with 

4 ' Colonel North. That was one subject that was discussed. 

5 Q What others? 

6 I A I at that point indicated a concern about the 

7 legality and confidentiality of their work. 

8 '' Q Had you consulted with anyone about the legality 

9 I or confidentiality of their work? 

10 ■ A I had asked an agency which does background 
i 

11 I investigations to check on Mr. Channell for me, which they 

12 undertook to do. This is a copy of their report right 

j 

13 ] here. But that didn't come in until later. 

14 That is included in the documents that you 

15 produced today; is that correct? 

16 I A Yes. 

17 Did you consult with an attorney at this point? 

18 A No. 

19 Did Mr. Channell or Mr. Conrad make any further 

20 requests for contributions from you at this luncheon? 

21 A My understanding was the general purpose of 

22 their visit was t*iaihl^ij/ate_me_ as a contributor. 




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So it was more general than specific? 

A Yes . 

Was there any further discussion of particular 
military needs of the contras? 

A I believe it was at that point that I asked them 
are the planes that I bought flying, and they said yes, 
they are. 

This was with the check you had given 
approximately two weeks earlier? 

a' Yes. 

Did they say how they knew that they were 
flying? 

A No. Although I seem to remember a discussion 
earlier in which Mr. Channell indicated, I think, that 
either he or Colonel North had been in contact with Maule 
Aircraft in Georgia and had arranged to get the aircraft. 

You say Mr. Channell had indicated that earlier? 

A It may have been at the meeting at the 
Hay-Adams, when I gave the check to Mr. Channell, that he 
indicated that he or Colonel North would be in touch with 
Maule Aircraft. Or maybe even had been in touch with Maule 
Aircraft. And this would be assuming that they were going 




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to get this equipment anyway and I was just covering it for 
them, so to speak. I am not quite sure whether their 
getting the equipment depended on my giving the check or 
not . 

You had not had any conversation with 
Mr. Channell between the meal at the Hay-Adams that you 
described and the luncheon at the Union League Club? 

A As far as I recall, no. There was one contact, 
I think, from his office to my office, and I don't recall 
whether I spoke to him personally or whether it was through 
the secretary where we set up the luncheon. And I am not ' 
sure whether it was him or Ms. McLaughlin or someone else 
who arranged this. 

At this luncheon meeting in mid-April he 
suggested a further meeting with Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Did you have a further meeting with Colonel 
North? 

A 

Q 

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Yes. 

When did that occur? 

It was a few days later. It may have been the 



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■iiikepaulus 1 ' In April of 1986? 

! 

2 j A Yes. 

3 I Where was it? 

4 ! A In the Old Executive Office Building. In 

5 I Colonel North's office, at the National Security Council 
i 

6 i office. 

7 ] Who else was present? 

8 ! A Mr. Channell was there for a brief period of 

9 I time. , 

10 Anyone else? 

11 A I saw Fawn Hall, Colonel North's secretary, 

12 although she wasn't at the meeting; she was just outside at 
I 

13 I her desk. 
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14 I Anyone else? 

15 A No . 

16 Channell was not present for the entire meeting? 

17 A No. 

18 How long did the meeting last? 

19 A Half an hour to 45 minutes. 

20 What did North say? 

21 A We talked about a number of subjects. While 

22 Channel was there I believe we talked about a humanitarian 




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likepaulus 1 ! aid program that NEPL was undertaking, which involved 
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2 I supplying boots and military uniforms and various other 



equipment like that to the contras. 

Then Mr. Channell left and Colonel North and I 
had further discussions. I asked Colonel North what the 



6 !] general plan was in Nicaragua: What's going on here 



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anyway? Why are we giving them aid? what's going to 
happen? ,He outlined what the general plan was. 

Q What was the general plan? 

A First he indicated to me that this was very 
secret information, that because I was involved he was 
going to tell me. Basically, he said that there were two 
versions of the same plan, one if Congress approved 
continued funding of the contras and one if Congress did 
not approve continued funding of the contras. 

The basic plan was that the contras would gather 
their forces and seize a certain part of Nicaragua, 
establish a provisional capital and a provisional 
government, and the United States would assist in this by 
blockading the country with the Navy, cutting off the 
supplies coming in to the Sandinistas from Cuba, would 
recognize the contras as the legitimate government of 



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Nicaragua, and the Sandinistas would be out and the contras 
would be in. 

If Congress were to approve the resumption of 
funding of the contras, this would happen on approximately 
an 18-month time frame. If it were not to approve funding 
of the contras, it would happen on a much shorter time 
frame, which was less desirable and would be something of a 
desperation move on the part of the contras. 

I remember something now which I hadn't recalled 
up until now. I asked him are we involved in the beginning 
of World War III here, and we talked about that a little 
bit. He indicated that we were not because the Russians 
would never be willing to fight us for Nicaragua; they have 
enough problems of their own. 

I also indicated to him that I felt uneasy about 
further involvement as a civilian, because I didn't enjoy 
the protection of the government; I wasn't a member of a 
government agency of any kind, and if I were up against 
governmental forces, I was concerned that the KGB, aside 
from everyone else, would be highly interested in these 
activities of Colonel North, and if J were out there buying 
weapons as sort of an independent agent, a civilian, that I 



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was exposing myself to some danger from hostile forces, you 
might say, while at the same time having no training or no 
institutional support. We talked a little bit about that. 

Then I also indicated that if I were Colonel 
North I would be concerned that the KGB would be interested 
in his activities. We talked a little bit about a 
technique called, I think, active measures, where the KGB 
identifies a government operative who is causing them a lot 
of trouble and renders them ineffective somehow. Colonel 
North indicated that he was concerned that was beginning to 
happen to him, that there was an article that had appeared 
in a Massachusetts newspaper, and it was the kind of thing 
the KGB might do to try to. He was involved, apparently, 
in trying to keep his name out of the papers, trying to 
keep his picture out of the papers, and he felt that there 
was some chance that some of this newspaper leaking and so 
forth that was going on about his activities were in fact 
organized by the KGB. He indicated that he was in touch 
with the FBI about that. 

Q The press campaign that he referred to is what 
you understood was meant by the active measures that 
related to Colonel North? 



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A Yes. 

Were you concerned about something similar with 
respect to you? 

A In a general way, yes, although I was not 
involved in any way to the same extent as Colonel North. 

In this overall plan that he described, what was 
to be your role? 

A My role wasn't really discussed. He was just 
telling me what I assumed was the strategy of the United 
States Government vis-a-vis Nicaragua. 

Why did you understand he was telling you all 
this? 

A I felt that he had accepted me as being a member 
of a small group of trusted people that was willing to help 
with this plan, or who already had helped with it, and then 
as an expression of this trust that he was explaining to me 
what the general plan was. 

Did Colonel North request any further 
contributions from you? 

A During the earlier meeting, or the earlier part 
of the meeting when Mr. Channel! was present, I think 
Mr. Channell had indicated to me in a general way that they 



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likepaulus 1 i were open for receiving contributions for this humanitarian 

2 type of aid that NEPL was involved in. But after he left, 

3 i no, Colonel North didn't ask for any contributions. 

i 

4 j Did you understand that NEPL was still open also 

5 I for contributions for military aid? 

6 i A That had been my understanding from the 
i 

7 I beginning, from the earlier meetings, but I didn't hear 

8 anything at these later meetings that either confirmed or 

9 denied that. 

10 After your meeting with Colonel North did you 

11 see Mr. Channell that day? 
! 

12 I A I think so. As I recall, Mr. Channell came by 

] 

13 i and walked back to the Hay-Adams Hotel with me. I remember 

14 ! a conversation with Mr. Channel! about how this was all 

i 

15 I part of a larger plan on the part of President Reagan to 

16 i reverse the dominoes. I am sure you know what I mean by 

17 ! the domino theory. Start the dominoes going back the other 

18 way. Nicaragua was one step. I think Afghanistan was 

19 going to be another step. I think a couple of African 

20 countries were also mentioned. I think it was at that 

21 point that we had that discussion. 

22 I also remember having a similar discussion at 



rememDer naving a simiia 

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the first cocktail party after the first briefing with 
Colonel North. I came up with that idea myself: we're 
starting to roll the dominoes back the other way. And he 
said, yes, that's right, isn't it? That idea had been 
talked about before. 

Any discussion of further contributions with 
Mr. Channell after the meeting? 

A , He knew that I had already sent him that 
Mailgram saying I don't want to give any more 
contributions. The way we left it was if I wanted to give 
any more contributions I would be in touch with them. 

Q Have you had any communication with Colonel 
North since the meeting you just described? 

A Yes . 

When? 

A Colonel North wrote me a couple of letters. I 
don't recall the exact text of the letters, but in effect 
they thanked me for my support and encouraged me to 
continue my support. 

Have you had any further meetings with Colonel 



North? 



No. 



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mikepaulus 1 ! Any telephone conversations? 

2 i A No. 

3 I So the only connnuni cat ions would be the letters 

i 

4 ■ that you referred to? 

5 j A Yes. 

6 i Have you had any conununications with 

7 Mr. Channell since your talk with him after the meeting 

8 I with Colonel North? 

9 i A I was still on their mailing list, of course, so 

10 I I received the usual stuff that they would send out. Later 

11 I on that year I received an urgent request for, the way they 

12 1 put it, the last donation in regard to the contras that 

13 I they would ever ask for. This was after Congress had voted 

14 ! to support the contras again. Meanwhile there were still 

15 I some delays in terms of the money trickling down from 

16 \ Congress to the contras themselves, and according to 

17 Channel! they urgently needed more supplies. So I made an 

18 additional contribution of $30,000 later that year. As I 

19 recall, that was for what they were calling humanitarian 

20 aid. 

21 After your conversation with Mr. Channell 

22 following the North meeting that you described have you had 



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any further conversations with Mr. Channell either in 
person or on the telephone? 

A None, to my recollection. 

Your two contributions to NEPL were one for 
$130,000 and one for $30,000. Other than those 
contributions have you made any contributions to any entity 
with respect to Nicaragua? 

A No. 

Since January 1, 1986, have you had any 
communication with President Reagan? 

A No. The only exception that I might want to add 
would be that I can't recall if I may have received some 
kind of routine political communication, such as 
fund-raising type stuff that the Republican party would 
send out over President Reagan's signature. Aside from 
that sort of thing, none. 

Have you met with President Reagan since January 



1, 1986? 
A 


A 



No. 

Have you spoken with him on the telephone? 

No. I should say I did meet with him once, but 



I believe that was in 1985, in connection with a totally 



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.aikepaulus 1 ' different situation. 

2 j MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as 

3 O'Boyle Deposition Exhibit No. 1 for identification a 
I 

4 subpoena of the House Select Committee directed to 

5 Mr. O'Boyle, which is dated March 30, 1987. 



6 1 

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(O'Boyle Deposition 
Exhibit No. 1 marked 
for identification.) 
(Document handed to witness.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Mr. O'Boyle, Deposition Exhibit 1 is a subpoena' 
that was served on you in advance of the deposition which 
is similar to a subpoena that was served on you by the 
Senate Select Committee and which calls for production of 
various documents. Have you produced, today, documents in 
response to the subpoenas of the committees? 
A Yes. 

MR. NEWMAN: So the record is clear, Mr. Fryman, 
we did not produce any telephone toll records. We also did 
not produce his diary for the reason previously stated, 
because they are in the possession of the independent 
prosecutor. We will try to make a search for the toll 



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records and forward them to you under separate cover. 

MR. FRYMAN: Let me now mark as 'Boyle 
Deposition Exhibit 2 for identification a group of 
documents which was produced this morning by Mr. O'Boyle. 
The entire group will be Deposition Exhibit 2. 

(O'Boyle Deposition 
Exhibit No. 2 marked 
for identification.) 

MR. NEWMAN: Mr. Fryman, after Mr. O'Boyle had 
another chance to look at the subpoena, he noticed some 
entities in here that he may have some correspondence from. 
He will check his records. If he does, we will forward it 
to you. 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Newman, could you identify for 
the record at the moment any groups of documents that you 
believe are called for in the subpoena which have not been 
produced? You mentioned telephone toll records and you 
mentioned the diary. Is there anything else? 

THE WITNESS: I am looking at Schedule A here. 
I recall receiving a communication from Mr. Channell 
recently, I think. Some kind of committee on Afghanistan. 
I don't even know whether I kept it or threw it away. 

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no 02 02 1 

mikepaulus 1 ! There might be something in here on another Channell 

2 :| organization that I received by way of sort of a regular 

3 mailing, you might say, a fund-raising type of thing, but I 

4 had no involvement. There might be something in the files 

5 somewhere. 

6 j Any bank in Switzerland. I have a Swiss bank 

7 account which I have had for years, which has a minor 

8 amount of money in it. 

9 ! MR. FRYMAN: With respect to subparagraph (o), 

10 j we are not requesting production of all tax records at this 

I 

11 I time. 

1 

12 I THE WITNESS: As far as I know, the only 
1 

13 j possible exception to the records we have already produced 

14 j might be under Schedule A. There might be another one of 

15 j the Channell organizations. 

16 j BY MR. FRYMAN: 

17 Which would be form materials from another 

18 Channel/ organization; is that correct? 

19 A Yes. And I am not even sure I even have those 

20 still in my file. But I'll check. 

21 I also direct your attention to Appendix A. 

22 A Is this do I know any of these people? 




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The subpoena calls for materials that have 
anything to do with these individuals or organizations. 

A As far as I know, I don't have any of this 
material other than what I've mentioned. 

Q To summarize, the group of documents that you 
have produced this morning includes everything called for 
by the subpoena other than your diary, telephone toll 
records, records relating to a personal foreign bank 
account, and some form materials from another Channell 
organization; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

And tax records, which I said are not called 
for. 

MR. NEWMAN: Let me explain one other thing to 
you on the record. I am sure you are going to get hold of 
a copy of th6 diary from the independent prosecutor, and 
you are going to find one corner of a page that is torn 
out, that had some names on it. That was done prior to its 
delivery to the independent prosecutor. If you want to ask 
him a question as to how that came about, you are welcome 
to do it so we don't have to have another trip down when 



you discover that 



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BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q How did it happen that the corner of the page 
was torn out of the diary? 

A That is the corner on which I wrote Oliver 
North's name. When I realized the secret nature of his 
work, I tore it out of my diary. 

What did you do with it? 
A Threw it away. 

MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as 
O'Boyle Deposition Exhibit 2-A for identification a check 
for $130,000, dated March 31, 1986. 

(O'Boyle Deposition 
Exhibit No. 2-A marked 
^ for identification.) 
(Document handed to witness.) 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Q Mr. O'Boyle, is that the check that you gave to 
Mr. Channell for the purchase of the two Maule airplanes? 
A Yes. 

MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as 
O'Boyle Deposition Exhibit 2-B for identification a check 
for $30,000, dated September 3 0. 1986. 



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no 02 02 

.nikepaulus 1 | (0 'Boyle Deposition 

2 I Exhibit No. 2-B marked 

for identification.) 
i 

4 (Document handed to witness.) 

5 I .BY MR. FRYMAN: 

6 Mr. O'Boyle, would you identify Exhibit 2-B? 

7 A That's a checl< for $30,000 which I later gave to 

8 ! the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

1 • 

9 That is in response to the final request for 

10 funds for the contras that you described? 

11 A Yes. 

12 MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as 

13 O'Boyle Deposition Exhibit 2-C for identification a 

14 I handwritten note and a phone memo slip. 
i 

15 (O'Boyle Deposition 

16 Exhibit No. 2-C marked 

17 for identification.) 

18 (Document handed to witness.) 

19 BY MR. FRYMAN: 

20 Is that your handwriting, Mr. O'Boyle? 

21 A No. 

22 Whose handwriting is that? 



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I'm not sure. Someone in my office. 

Was that a note that was given to you? 

Yes, it was. 

Are you looking at the phone message at the 



Yes. 

What is the material at the top? 

It says "meet Dan Conrad April 29th at the 2 pm 



A 



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moment? 

A 



A 
shuttle." 

Is the material at the top on a separate piece 
of paper from the phone message at the bottom? 

A I don't know. 

(Witness and counsel conferring.) 
MR. NEWMAN: We will have to check this. This 
was Xeroxed for us by Mr. 'Boyle's office. We don't know 
if the secretary in doing it Xeroxed two pieces of paper 
together. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Do you recall receiving the notes which are at 
the top of the page? 

A No. They look like notes my secretary was 
making of telephone communications back and forth. For 



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.rtikepaulus 1 i example, down here it says "okay for a 4 pm meeting on 

2 i Tuesday, the 29th." It looks like maybe they were 

3 arranging that meeting that was held subsequently to my 



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luncheon at the Union League Club. 

This is the meeting with Colonel North in his 
office that you described? 

A Yes . 

There is a date here in these notes of 4/29. Do 
you believe that April 29 was the date of your meeting "with 
Colonel North? 

A I think so. I think it was, but I can't be 
sure. We may be mixed up a little bit on the dates. I 



13 ;| think I have the 18th as the luncheon, and then some time 



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later there was the meeting in Colonel North's office. I 
recall it as a few days later; it may have been as much as 
ten days later. 

MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as 
'Boyle Deposition Exhibit 2-D for identification a 
Mailgram dated April 7, 1986. 

/ (O'Boyle Deposition 

Exhibit No. 2-D marked 



for identification.) 



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'10 02 02 

likepaulus 1 (Document handed to witness.) 

2 ' BY MR. FRYMAN: 

3 I Mr. O'Boyle, is that the Mailgram that you 

4 I described earlier in your testimony? 

5 j A Yes. 

6 j MR. FRYMAN: I ask the reporter to mark as 

7 ! O'Boyle Deposition Exhibit 2-E for identification a group 

8 j of pages headed NEPL Freedom Fighters TV National Spot 

9 ! Placement, Second Flight. 

10 (O'Boyle Deposition 

11 Exhibit No. 2-E marked 

12 ; for identification. ) 

I 

13 I (Document handed to witness.) 

i 

14 I BY MR. FRYMAN: 

I 

15 I Mr. O'Boyle, where did you receive that material 

16 from? 

17 A It was sent to me by NEPL. It may actually have 

18 been conjunction with a video tape of some of the 

19 television commercials which they had produced. 

20 What did you understand was the reason for 

21 sending you that? 

22 A To demonstrate to me that they were in fact 



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engaged in a process of airing these television commercials 
and to enlist my support. 

Q Did you make any contributions to purchase 
television commercials? 

A No. 

Q Mr. O'Boyle, I would ask you to take a minute to 
review Deposition Exhibit 2 and tell me if these are all 
materials from your file and if they are records that are 
what they purport to be, i.e., that they are letters or' 
communications as indicated in the particular document. 

A These are copies of my files, the files that 
have been subpoenaed. 

MR. FRYMAN: Off the record. 
(Recess . ) 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Mr. O'Boyle, you mentioned that at your original 
meeting at the Hay-Adams you met with a number of 
representatives from IBC, International Business 
Communications, and you thought that they might be 
government agents. What was the basis for that speculation 



on your part? 



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A I didn't speak to any of them at great length, 
but I did speak to a couple of them, and they didn't seem 
like businessmen to me. 

Can you be specific? 

A Not that I quizzed them at great length, but if 
you meet someone of your own profession and background you 
can tell whether they are a lawyer or a doctor or they 
aren't, especially if you are a lawyer or doctor yourself. 
These didn't appear to be people that were extremely 
experienced in the management of companies or business 
affairs or economics. It was just a vague impression that 
I got. I don't know whether it is conclusive or not, but 
it is an impression that I got and it seemed to fit with 
the idea that perhaps this entire program was sponsored 
somehow by the government, or the government was involved 
in this program. 

Was there anything said by anyone at that 
meeting that indicated that they were government agents? 

A No. 

MR. FRYMAN: I have no further questions. 




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EXAMINATION 
BY MR. KAPLAN: 

I am going to take you back to March and the 
dinner at the Hay-Adams Hotel during which Richard Miller 
sat next to you. Can you describe from recollection any 
conversation that you had with Miller during that dinner? 

A As I recall, it was a fairly social kind of 
conversation but with political overtones. I remember we 
talked about the desirability of the anticommunist effort, 
the Reagan Administration in general, that it was desirable 
to eliminate the communists or get rid of the communists. 
That sort of thing. 

I remember also talking to him about that while 
it was desirable to get rid of the communists we didn't 
want to be in the position where we were supporting 
horrible right wing dictators either. Just kind of a 
political discussion, you might say. 

Q Did Miller solicit any funds from you? 

A No. 

Did you have any contact with Miller after that 
dinner at the Hay-Adams? 



Ever? 



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10 02 02 ' 
likepaulus 1 Ever. 

2 I A I ran into him one time in another context, 

3 : completely different context. President Aquino from the 

4 i Philippines was visiting New York and addressed the United 

5 Nations and then stopped by and paid a courtesy call to the 

6 ! Asia Foundation after that. I was present at this 

7 reception, having been a supporter of the Asia Society. A 

8 brief speech and a reception was given by President Aquino, 

9 and Miller was there. I am not sure I remember this 

10 correctly, but I think he was billed as a State Department 

11 ; protocol officer. He was there helping sort of move the 

12 crowds past President Aquino, because we all lined up to 

13 i shake hands with President Aquino. He was standing right 

14 ; there, kind of moving people past. This seem to confirm in 
i 

15 ! my mind that this guy really works for the State 

16 Department; this public relations thing, that's what they 

17 ! all say in Washington, right? 

18 Do you recall who billed him as a State 

19 Department protocol person? 

20 A I think it was in the program of President 

21 Aquino's party. There was a program that listed who was in 

22 I her party. I am not sure that that was his title, but I 



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think that's right. And I said hello to him. I said, ".^h 
we meet again." He sort of recognized me and said hello. 
Or I think he recognized me. 

Any further contact with Miller, whether in 
person or by telephone or letter or otherwise? 

A No. 

Q When were you first told that NEPL was a tax 
exempt organization? 

A I don't recall the exact moment at which I was 
told that. It was some time in March or April of 1986. 

Would it have been in one of your phone 
solicitations from Jane McLaughlin? 

A It may have been. I think in this pile of 
material here there is a 501(c)(3) certification from the 
IRS. 

Who would have provided you with that 
certification? 

A NEPL. They sent a package of material at some 
point to me, and their tax exempt status was outlined 
there. 

Did anyone tell you that NEPL was a tax exempt 
organization, rather than sending you the certification? 



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...ikepaulus 1 i A That was my understanding. I don't remember 

2 j exactly if anyone actually said that or not. 

3 Were you told that your contributions would be 

4 deductible? 
i 

51 A I understood that they would be. 

6 I How did you arrive at that understanding? 

I 

7 i A Because by the time I made the contribution it 

8 was clear to me that this was a tax exempt organization and 

9 I that it would be a deductible contribution. 
i ;. 

10 Why did you choose to hand deliver your $130,000 

11 contribution to Mr. Channell rather than send it Federal 

12 Express to his home? 

13 A I was concerned about security. I felt this was 

I 

14 an extremely secret operation, and that not only agencies 

15 of the United States Government, but foreign agencies, 

16 anybody, the press, the Democrats, everybody would be 

17 interested in this kind of a thing. It was quite 

18 conceivable that the phones were tapped. So I made no 

19 appointment. I just showed up. 

20 It was at your own instance? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q During your luncheon in mid-April with 



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Mr. Channell and Mr. Conrad in New York, you mentioned 
earlier that you stated to them a concern that you had 
about the legality of NEPL's work. What was their 
response? 

A I believe Mr. Channell said don't worry about 
it, this has been set up by lawyers who are very close to 
the Administration. Or maybe it was even White House 
lawyers. Something like that. I forget the exact 
arrangement he described. It goes into NEPL, goes into 
another corporation which has a contract with another 
corporation overseas and it can never be traced. That was 
his response. 

Did he mention what those other corporations 
were? 

A No. 

Did he mention more specifically from whom they 
received their legal advice? 

A No. 

Why did you have a background check done into 
NEPL and Mr. Channell? 

A I wanted to make sure that he was legitimate, 
that he was who he said he was, 




582 



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Is it routine for you to have background checks 
done on people who solicit you for money? 

A Not always, but sometimes. Business partners or 
people I might be involved in business with who I might 
have some concern about, or perhaps people who are asking 
for money. Sometimes I do take steps to check them out. 

Do you recall when you contracted for the 
background check on Channell? 

A There is a letter here. I think was early 
April. Shortly after I made the contribution. 

Was there anything particular about Channell 
that caused you to have a background check contracted for 
him? 

A The whole thing was an unusual situation, a 
secret situation. I felt somewhat concerned about the 
whole thing. That's what drove me to do it. 

You mentioned earlier in your second meeting 
with Colonel North he basically withdrew the request of the 
need for Blowpipes, saying that the Blowpipes were no 
longer available. If my memory serves me right, you 
mentioned that^^^^^^H was the country to which he had 
referred. Could the country have beer 



RS. InC 




Atf-FeDER-AL 



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A It might have been. 

Does that refresh your recollection as to what 
country North might have referred to? 

A I have been saying ^^^^^^^H but it may have 
I am not quite clear. As I recall, it was a 
[country. I may be mistaken. It may have 



been 




MR. KAPLAN: I have no further questions. 
EXAMINATION 

BY MR. BUCK: 

You mentioned at the beginning of the deposition 
a few hours ago that you were independently wealthy. Could 
you put sort of a general figure on that independent 
wealth? 

MR. NEWMAN: I am not sure that that is within 
the scope of your examination. I have other problems with 
that question related to a situation extant in New York, 
and I am going to direct him not to answer. I am going to 
seek a ruling on that, because I think it is outside the 
scope of this examination. 

BY MR. BUCK: 
Did Mr. Channell have any idea of your general 



UNCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Ffdcr.al Reporters, inc. 



584 



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wealth? 

A Before he met me? 

Before he met you. You mentioned that 
Mr. Ferguson referred your name to Mr. Channell. 

A I don't know whether he did or not. 

There were no indications to you that he did 



have? 



No. 



MR. BUCK: The only reason I asked that question 
is because Mr. Channell seemed to pursue Mr. 'Boyle. 

MR. NEWMAN: I understand. I am not finding 
fault, but it tangentially involves something else we have 
pending in the city that I am concerned about. 

BY MR. BUCK: 
Q Were you at all suspicious about the expensive 
tastes of the Channell organization. You were picked up, I 
believe, at the airport by a limousine and taken to the 
Hay-Adams Hotel. Did that make you at all suspicious that 
a charitable organization would have tastes like that? 

A I wondered a little bit about it, but then I 
thought that this was sort of a stylistic type thing that 
Mr. Channel! was adopting to cultivate wealthy people. 



Inc. 




Ace-Federa 



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Did Colonel North ever ask you for a 
contribution at any point? 

A No. 

Q I take it if he never asked you for a 
contribution he never directed to what organization you 
should contribute money. 

A That's right. As a matter of fact, he said on 
more than one occasion that he could not ask for money, 
that he was not there to ask for money. 

Did you take a charitable deduction on your 
income taxes for the donations that you made to the 
Channell organizations? 

MR. NEWMAN: His tax return for '86 is in 
extension. 

BY MR. BUCK: 

Do you plan on taking a charitable deduction? 

A No. 

Why is it that you will not claim a deduction? 

A Upon advice of counsel. 

I think you mentioned before that you were 
assured the $130,000 that you donated in actuality did 
purchase two Maule airplanes. 



UNWSm 

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 



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A Yes. 

But you received no other evidence of that from 

Mr. Channell? 

A That's correct. 

If I told you that that $130,000 never purchased 

those two airplanes, would you be surprised? 

A Yes. 

You mentioned several stories that Colonel North 
told you over a period of time, examples of Colonel North 
being involved in capturing drug smugglers and various 
activities like that. Did you have a feeling that Colonel 
North was exaggerating at any point in time? 

A No. 

Did you feel that he could tell a story? Not 
necessarily make up the complete story, but add to the 
story some way. 

A No. I didn't feel he was embellishing the 



story. 



concluded . ) 



MR. BUCK: I have no further questions. 
MR. FRYMAN: I have no further questions. 
MR. KAPLAN: No further questions. 
(Whereupon at 1:25 p.m. the deposition was 

ONCLASSIFIED 

Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 



587 



UNCLASSIFIED 



CEl^TIFICATE OF JJOTARY PUBLIC S REPORTER 
I, Michael G. Paulus, the officer before whom the 
foregoins deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the 
witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 
was duly ^worn by me; that the testimony of said witness was 
taken in shorthand and thereafter reduced to typewriting by 
me or under my direction; that said deposition is a true 
record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken; 
and further, that I am not a relative or employee of any 
attorney or counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor 
financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the 
action . 



My Commission Expires 
February 29, 1992 




Notary Public in and for the 
District of Columbia 






%?^ 



RiriTiLif v.\ l.p.\oi» 



588 



UNCLASSSrItD 



RODERT H MiCHF.L 
L'mtpd ST.vns («s(.ki s^ 



August IS, 1986 



Mr, Spitz Channell, President 
The National Endowment of the 

Preservation of Liberty 
305 4th Street. N.E. 
Washington, D. C. 20002 

Dear Spitz: 

I just want to thank you for the contributions you 
made to our efforts in the House on behalf of Nicara- 
guan freedom-fighters. 

Obviously, no issue of this high degree of contro- 
versy can be won in the House without help from people 
like you. 

We all appreciate your commitment to the cause of 
freedom. 



RHM:lpj 




irt H. Michel 
Republican Leader 




IIIIIIIHIIM IK I u lum,!^ 

by K Johnson. National Security Council 



•t. 



^HCl^SS\Tlt« 



589 



ȣ'.;-:iV WHIP 
«U.£S CCVMirTEE 



UNCLASSJf;£D 



ConarcU£f of tfje Wihitch ^tatti' 
^)ouit of J\eprc£fen(atibea ' 
HIasfjingfon, J3C 20515 



July 24. 1986 



Mr. Spitz Channell, President 
The National Endowment for the 

Preservation of Liberty 
305 - 4th Street, NE 
Washington, D.C. 20002 

Dear Spitz: 

The reception on Monday night was obviously a ereac 
thar!o™Hr /"".'"'^ representative of the various fo'rce 
that combined to give us the Contra Aid victory on June 25 

Without the efforts of the National Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty and your related organizations 
this victory would have been very unllkelv ^B-niza t ion s , 

VniMro'.r'r^'' •^^' • dim:nLo„"'th:j^i3 L°v:iu:bi:^trL" 

and the other Congressional leaders. 



Again, thanks for your help and I look forward to 
.ur working together in the future. With warmest best wl 



shes , 



"o" i a: ! i OLi i njj i fuj /fieleased on Ul-Cg fePS 
"" ' " r' r fl 11?ii 

Dv f\ Joiinson. National Secutily Council 



TL: sw 



Sincerely yours , 



^"^^^M^^j 



BNeiASStFiED 




CGV-'";; C-. ARr.'EO SERVICES 
COM'.' TT£E C. SMALL BUSINESS 



590 




uMCLASS»F;ta 



J^ouit of B^epre^entatibed 

8ZIas(t)ington. 1B€ 20515 

August 26, 1986 



Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

National Endowment For The Preservation of Liberty 

305 Fourth Street 

Suite 1000 

Washington, D.C. 20002 

Dear Mr. Channell: 

I am writing to extend my most sincere congratulations to the 
National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

Over the past 8 months, your program entitled, "Central 
American Freedom Program," has contributed in a significant way to 
the progress we have made in Nicaragua. 

We are involved not only in a fight to keep our hemisphere 
free, but also in a battle for the support of the American public. 
In both arenas, our opponents are shrewd and relentless. 

We must all be alert to the need for continued vigilance. It 
is not enough that we continue to seek the support of our 
countrymen in this important endeavor. We must labor to make sure 
that the way we conduct this fight continues to be worthy of their 
support. Any mistake that we make will be amplified by our 
skillfull adversaries. 

I pledge my continued efforts in this important battle to 
keep our hemisphere free, and congratulate you again for the 
outstanding work done by your fine organization. 



•"iiiulli Oi.Uujjifed/Released on JlF^:^6 
"*'"' I III iiiinn nl C IJOCC 
oy K Johnson, National Security Council 




Member of Corxq/ass 



(^ 



<25 CANNON OFFICE 8LDC .WASHINGTON OC -iJOJl 2JS-5901 -TOLL FREE |0A| i -SnO-JIJ-SCCT 



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ton^xtei of tf)e ^niteb ^tatti 
Jl^ouit of i^epresfentatibed 

Hiftiiniiton. fiC 20515 
Au^st 4, 1986 



Mr. Spitz Channel! 

President 

National Endowment for the 

Preservation of Liberty 
305 4th Street, N.E. 
Washington, DC. 20002 

Dear Spitz: 

When your Central American Freedom Program began to unfold it was clear 
that your organization had researched the issue well and was ready to help 
our cause to ultimate victory. 

The television messages that your organization produced and the 
excellent coordination you provided for Nicaraguan leaders was an effective 
method for educating the public. We have come a very long way from the days 
of small margins of victory for tiny amounts of aid to the Freedom Fighters. 
Certainly, without your support the public would have been ignorant of the 
issues facing the Congress. 

I want to congratulate you on a first class effort and to encourage you 
to continue to involve yourself in the foreign policy arena so that we can 
continue to win victories like the one on June 25th. 



Siacerely , 



-f^iimii OalujijilKKl/Released onJ±^3S6 

m ti n p f o ii j i u i u 11 1 CO mj i 

by K Johnson. Naljonal Secur.ry Council 



RLL:jb 



/bOBERT L. LIVINGSTON 
Member of Congress 





592 



UNCLASSiriED 

NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON O C 2050e 



May 2, 1986 



Dear Bill: 

Here is the situation today. Congressman Bob Michel, Republican 
Leader of the House of Representatives, persuaded a majority of 
the House to vote overwhelmingly for a bill which got the 
President's Freedom Fighter package away from being included as a 
supplement to a huge Democrat-sponsored spending bill. 

This spending bill, if passed, faces an almost certain veto by 
President Reagan. Michel's adroit leadership has now effectively 
saved the Freedom Fighter aid bill, intact, for what we hope will 
be a final vote during the week of June 9. He is determined to 
emerge victorious, even if he must doggedly wear down the 
opposition. 

You are obviously supporting the President for the long term as 
well. I want to thank you so very much for all you are doing to 
support President Reagan and to help assure a victory for freedom 
in Central America. 

We are entering a critical period now in the legislative 
struggle. The President is chipping away at the opposition and 
gaining solid momentum for a clear victory in the next three 
weeks. This is due in no small way to your support of the 
ongoing Central American Freedom Program of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

I hope you will remain steadfast with the President as he leads 
this effort. I know personally that he values your help very 
much. We must continue to work together for the success of the 
President's policy. It's been a long struggle -- we're almost 
there. Please maintain your invaluable, strong support. 



undef provisions ol E 0, 12356 
by K. Johnson, National Secunly Council 



Sincerely, 

Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director, 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mr. William B. O'Boyle 
630 Fifth Avenue 
Suite 863 
New York, NY 10111 



€^ 



UNCLASStFtEd 



593 



NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 
WASHINGTON OC 20S06 



July 23, 1986 




Dear Mr. O'Boyle: 

America is now at the verge of answering 
Soviets laid down in Nicaragua. When the 
need of support and sustained faith in th 
helped to provide both. The struggle for 
must first be won in the halls of Congres 
dedication and resolve to stay with the P 
campaign, neither victory would be possib 
approves the aid, we will finally be at a 
truly make a contribution to a democratic 



the challenge the 
President was most in 

is leadership, you 
freedom in Nicaragua 
Without your 

resident in this long 

le. Once the Senate 
point where we can 
outcome in Nicaragua. 



All Americans owe you a great debt. As men who have lived 
through combat know, without a sustained level of support, those 
in the front lines can accomplish nothing. Your perseverance in 
the cause of freedom and President Reagan's dream for a free 
Nicaragua were the sustaining measure that will carry us that 
last difficult mile. 

For your patriotism, courage, and dedication, thank you. 

Sincerely, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



fd i l i ij ll^ Di- l ajj i lnU /Released on_!iM6_88 
m iiii lU iiiii M i t CO lOQ gS 

by K Johnson, National Sccunty Council 



Mr. William B. O'Boyle 

630 Fifth Avenue, Suite 863 

New York, NY 10111 



UNCLASSIFIED 




594 



GH0LA3S!F:ED 



I^^Declassitiel'Released on Itf^ti Bi 

under ofovisions ol £ 12355 
by K. Johnson. National Secunry Council 



.^^5> 



iiNCLASSIFSED^ ^ 



yV>OkJV*^-/ 



595 



LNOLASSIFBED 



"Since the down of the nuclear 
age, every American President 
has sought to limit and end 
the dangerous competition 
in nuclear arms. I have 
no higher priority than 
to finally realize 
that dream . . ." 



NOLASSIFIED ^ 



596 




597 



iaiiaissiH£D__ 



THE WHITE HOLSE 

WASHINGTON 

December 18, 1985 



Dear Spitz: 

I want to thank you for the fine series of television 
messai^es you broadcast three weeks before we left for 
Geneva. "Morning of Peace" captured the true spirit of 
my dream, our Strategic Defense Initiative, a shield to 
protect our children and their children from the threat 
of nuclear war. I firmly believe that we can achieve 
this goal and end the insanity of the arms race. 

Your televised messages and the steadfast support in a 
variety of foreign policy areas of the American 
Conservative Trust means a great deal to me. Please 
keep up the good work. With your continued help I 
know we can succeed for the next generation, and for 
all the generations to come. Nancy Joins me in wishing 
you and your associates all the joys of the Season. 
God bless you. 

Sincerely , 



4\<jv«.vAflL r ^^^i^.^ 



Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

President 

The American Conservative Trust 

305 Fourth Street, N.B. 

Washington, D.C. 20002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



598 



GNCLASSIF'lED 



The Historic 
opportunity 
to Strengtiien 
American 
Security 



STRATEGIC 

DEFENSE 

INITIATIVE 



P 

JL reside 



.resident Reagans Strategic Defense 
initiative (SD!) is the most significant strategic 
development in the history of U.S. - Soviet relations 
since the acquisition of the atomic bomb by the 
Soviet Union, if allowed to be fully developed, it 
will greatly enhance America's security. Equally 
important, it will offer the superpowers a dramatic 
opportunity to establish a lasting peace by render- 
ing nuclear weapons obsolete. 

The Congress, however, has been slow to 
realize the opportunity inherent in a fully funded, 
on-time SDI. It has provided only about 60 per- 
cent of the President's funding request for SDI 
research and development in the past three years 
Thus, the program at current funding levels will be 
consciously delayed and drawn out. Timing is 
important. The Soviets, who began their own 
strategic defense efforts nearly two decades ago. 
are determined to deploy their own system and 
are accelerating their development of new offen- 
sive and defensive strategic systems while the 
United States lags. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



599 



UNCLASSIFIED 



". . . every 
President-has 
dreamt of 
leauing the 
world a safer 
place than he 
found it. I 
pledge to you. 
my goal— and I 
consider it a 
sacred trust- 
will be to make 
progress 
toward arms 
reduction in 
every one of 
the several 
negotiations 
now 
underway." 

President Reagan s Remarks 
to the Los .\ngeles world 
.\ffairs Council. 
March 31.1 983 



Soviet Fear 
of American 
Space 
Advancement 



ihe 



he impressive 
enhancement of American 
defenses under the Reagan 
Administration and the pro- 
mise of a Strategic Defense 
program are fundamentally 
responsible for having 
brought the Soviets to the 
Geneva summit last 
November 

Until last year the 
Soviets had little motivation 
to negotiate on nuclear 
weapons and other Issues 
in fact, after the Reagan 
Administration had spent 
months trying to sit down 
with them, the Soviet 
negotiators abruptly walked 
out of talks convened in 
Geneva in i 983 The much- 
improved US defense pos- 
ture, the Presidents March 
1 983 SDl speech. Ronald 
Reagan s re-election in 
1 984 and .\merican 
technological superiority in 
space research and explora- 
tion were compelling factors 
in bringing Moscow to the 
conference table late last 
year 

Finally, the rise of a 
relatively youthful, attractive 
Russian leader. Gorbachev, 
gave the political leaders of 
the Soviet Union what they 
perceived as a strong boost 



vis-a-vis the international 
media and world public f 
opinion, .\fter years of frosty 
relations the time had come 
to project a moderate pro- 
peace image in order to 
forestall American advances 
and lull .^merlcan allies into 
strategic lethargy 

Lagging in technology-, 
economic \ iialiry. and so- 
phistication and pressed to 
commit resources else- 
where, the Soviet Union fears 
the .American SDI. Such a 
system and its foreign 
policy power implications 
will be able to neutralize the 
threat of the massive Sov let 
nuclear arsenal. 

Brlefl>'. a deplov ed 
strategic defense would pre- 
vent nearly all of the 
U S.S R s iCB.Ms from reach- 
ing iheir targets in the United 
States This means that a 
successful Sov let first strike 
capabilitv- would be 
eliminated .And in the event 
of nuclear war. the U.S.. 
although potentially hurl, 
could retaliate massively 
and decisively Retaliation. 
however, is not the objec- 
tive Rather, it is to make 
nuclear weapons useless 
by assuring that they would 
never reach their targets 



UNCUSSIF-a 



600 



iNCLASSIFJEO 



enable to deliver a nuclear 
blow to the united States, 
the Soviet Lnion would see 
Its power significantly 
reduced 

Inability to maintain 
the credible (successful and 
effective) destructi\e threat 
of its arsenal necessarily 
weakens the SoMei power 
intimidation position visa- 
vis the L'niied States and the 
rest of the world. A common 
thread of Soviet foreign 
policy is to threaten to rain 
down awesome nuclear 
destruction on nations allied 
with the C S which the 
So\iets wish to influence 
This IS naked nuclear 
intimidation. Successi^■e 
Soviet leaders have raised 
the threat Gorbachev used 
It last December in a letter to 
the Greater London City 
Council in an ob\ious 



attempt to influence British 
decisions on defense policy 
for 1 986 

A fully deployed 
.\merican Strategic Defense 
will present the Soviets with 
a new reality, one which will 
require more acceptable 
and necessarily more 
peaceful behav ior on the 
part of the Soviet union for 
decades to come. 

The Soviet union 
failed to win concessions on 
SDl in Geneva. But it ex- 
pended tens of millions of 
dollars in the months lead- 
ing up to the Summit In 
attempting to shape 
European and American 
public opinion against SDl. 
So crucial is SDls failure to 
Soviet strategy that the 
Russians ha^ e continued to 
use their vast resources in a 
propaganda and disinfor- 



"The Soviet Union has military 
superiority over the United States. 
Henceforth, the United States ivill 
be threatened. It had better get 
used to it." 

Marshal .Nikola/ v Ogarkou. 
Chief of the Soviet General Staff 



mation struggle against the 
Reagan .\dministration s 
research and development 
program .^lthough other 
reasons have been given, 
the So\iet delay in agreeing 
on a summit in the united 
States is designed to gi\e 
the Russians more time for 
their efforts to weaken the 
Presidents SDl Also. the\ 
may attempt to make it an 
election issue this fall. 

Funhermore. Gor- 
bachevs Januar\ and 
March proposals, made in 
public speeches and not 
presented officially to the 
US. while welcome, are 
more than mere proposals 
They are propaganda effons 
to project the new- Soviet 
leadership as peacemakers, 
as the reasonable, sincere 
opposites of a belligerent 
.\merica They seek to lull 
European and .^merlcan 
public opinion into believing 
that SDl IS no longer 
necessary, given Soviet 
good faith and the new. 
more reasonable leader- 
ship. In other words, the 
Soviets will do with pro- 
paganda and soft sell 
targeted on public opinion 
what they cannot do at the 
negotiating table 



LNCLASSIFl'ED 



601 



[:nclassifif ! i l 



Evidence of such 
efforts were the multi-page 
acl^■ertlsemenls the Soviet 
government placed on 
March 2 I in the Washington 
Post, the Seiv York Times. 
the Los Angeles Times and 
LSA Today Costing nearly 
a quarter of a million dollars, 
the ads depicted the 
Russians as responding 
defensiv ely to threatened 
nuclear attack from the 
United States They cited 
SDl as the planned 
nuclearization of space and 
an escalation of the arms 
race 

Bui Moscovv has done 
much more, from funding 
anil- nuclear movements 
and organizing international 
conferences lo manipulating 
the media in Geneva That 
ihey have succeeded is evi- 
dent in the fact that the 
majority of American media 
commeniaiors at the time 
indicated thai lo accomplish 
something at Geneva the 
President had to gi\e con- 
cessions on SDl He did not, 
however, give in .\nd his 
steadfastness illustrates his 
belief that SDl is so critically 
imponani to U S security 



The Vast SoN'ict 
Campaign to 
Capture 
American 
Public Support 



Ma 



,ake no mistake 
about it. The Soviets 
genuinely fear a completed 
American Strategic Defense. 
But that fear does not con- 
cern their territorial safety. 
Rather, that fear concerns 
their continued ability to use 
the threat of nuclear 
annihilation to intimidate 
and blackmail other nations 
into submission or admis- 
sion of Soviet supremacy 

With dramatic full-page 
advertisements in major 
newspapers, scores of 
television interviews, books, 
articles, front organizations 
and governmental pro- 



paganda efforts, the So\ lets 
are spending millions of 
dollars to prevent SDl from 
going forward as the Presi- 
dent desires, seuer have the 
Soviets icanted so des- 
perately to block an 
American defense program 
They understand well the 
influence of .\merican 
public opinion on govern- 
ment policy. 

Although recent 
surveys indicate that 
Americans favor a workable 
alternative to mutual 
assured destruction (.vt\Di. 
anti-nuclear interest groups 
have largely framed the SDl 



"The defense policy of the United 
States is based on a simple 
premise: The United States does 
not start fights. We luill never be 
an aggressor we maintain our 
strength in order to deter and 
defend against aggression— to 
preserve freedom and peace." 

Presidents Address to the 
Sation. March 23. I 983 



imXM^'B 



602 



UNCLASSIFIED 



debate and have suc- 
ceeded in distorting public 
perceptions of what has 
lamentably become well 
known as star wars." Here 
the emphasis Is ivar—to the 
delight of the Soviets' 

The Soviets are 
bolstered in their effons by 
those in America who. for 
many reasons, oppose SDl. 
The opposition uses seven 
key arguments: 
SDl will never work; 
SDl means the militarization 
of outer space: 
SDl escalates the arms race; 
SDl research could go on 
IndefiniteK': 
SDl costs too much: 
SDl is nuclear; 
SDl \ iolates the ,\ntiBallisilc 
.Missile Treaty 

These arguments, 
combined with public and 



legislative concern about 
balancing the budget, 
resulted in congressional 
funding of only 60 percent 
of what the President 
requested for the first stages 
of SDl research and 
development. Since that 
time. Congress has passed 
the Gramm-Rudman- 
Hollings budget bill 
However, the legislative 
calendar now provides a 
window to secure full fund- 
ing for the Presidents pack- 
age to bring the program s 
timetable up to date, we 
must use this window of 
opponunity to dramatically 
strengthen Americas securi- 
ty The Soviets are deter- 
mined to complete their 
space defense first. The 
Presidents dream must be 
our goal— and now 



"It is not an impossible dream 
tliat we can begin to reduce 
nuclear arsenals, reduce the risk 
of war. and build a solid 
foundation for peace." 

Presidents Address to the 
Sation. \ovember 1 4. 1 985 



"While arms 
control can 
potentially 
play a role in 
enhancing our 
security and 
bringing about 
a more stable 
strategic 
relationship, 
what we are 
able and 
willing to do 
for ourselves 
is far more 
important: it 
provides the 
necessary 
foundation 
on which 
deterrence and 
arms control 
must rest." 

Paul H. Sitze. Special .\duisor 
to the President and 
Secretary of State on Arms 
Control Matters. 
February 4. 1 986 



nN(^i assiFPEn 



603 



CiNClilSJSIFBED 



Objectixes 



G 



i\ en the high 
moral imperaiiv e of 
Siraiegic Defense for our 
long-term securit\- and pos- 
sible peace, the National 
Endowment for the Preser- 
vation of Libenv belie\ es 
that the current goal of 
Strategic Defense must be 
realized — the sooner the bet- 
ter To help educate and 
inform Americans about the 
nature of the Strategic 
Defense concept, the 
Endowment is conducting a 
multi-faceted public educa- 
tion and information pro- 
gram using a combination 
of media and press 
activities in order lo; 



( 1 1 reveal and counter 
So\iei disinformation 
and other untruthful 
information; 

i2i educate the public about 
the true significance and 
role of the Strategic 
Defense initiative to 
.\merlca s military' and 
alliance security; 

i3) measure, describe and 
publicize public attitudes 
on the Strategic Defense 
initiative; 

(4) study and report the 
impact of the public s 
views on the Strategic 
Defense initiative in 
selected areas around 
the country 



"Winston Churchill in negotiating 
with the Soviets, observed that 
they respect only strength and 
resolve in their dealings with 
other notions. That's why we've 
moved to reconstruct our 
notional defenses. We intend to 
keep the peace, we will also 
keep our freedom." 

Presidents .\ddress Before a 
Joint Session of Congress. 
January 26 I 982 



Support the 

Presidents 

Program 



ihe 



he .National 
Endowment for the Preser- 
vation of Libeny will begin 
its program in June and 
will continue through 
October of this year in this 
manner, the program can 
operate fully during the 
framing of the debate during 
budget hearings and in the 
primary election c\ cle in the 
Spring. The timing will ma.x- 
imize its educational 
possibilities. Concurrently it 
will bring public attitudes to 
bear on the center of the 
debate the L S. Congress 
The program will include 
the following acti\ Ities; 

President's Message 

we are producing a brief 
\ideo-taped statement by 
President Reagan in which 
he will restate his historic 
statement of .March 198 3 
about the significance of 
SDl In It. he will e.xplain his 
"dream' of a world free from 
the threat of nuclear annihila- 
tion which can be achle^ed 
when SDl renders iCBMs 
obsolete These \ ideo 
messages w ill be made 
available to groups and 
individuals around the 
country who suppon the 
President They will also be 
used by speakers and in 
television inter\ lews 



UNCLASSIFIED 



604 



Television Education 

NEPL IS preparing e> ecaich- 
ing television acl\ er- 
tisemenis. i 5 and 30 
seconds in length, for place- 
ment in careiulK selected, 
imponant media markets 
thoughout the united Slates 
These creatively crafted 
spots" will reduce the 
many complexities of SDl 
into meaningful and truthful 
concepts which will be 
readily understood by the 
average citizen in so doing, 
they will counter the distor- 
ted perceptions fostered by 
deliberate disinformation 
and the media These televi- 
sion programs will be the 
heart of the overall cam- 
paign inasmuch as they 
ha\ e proven so valuable in 
other public Information 
efforts 

Newspaper Advenlsments 

Just as the iele\ ision spots' 
are to be directed at 
a\ erage citizens. .\EPL also 
is thinking of those better 
informed individuals for 
whom telev ision ads may 
be too elementars- \%'e 
are preparing, therefore, 
extensive newspaper 
advertisements which will 
explore in greater depth the 
fundamental moralli>' of a 
defensive svsiem vhich 



spares lives Several hun- 
dred to a few thousand 
words in length, the 
newspaper messages will 
detail the Soviet lead in 
strategic defense systems 
and the benefits of the 
President s program. 

Talk Shows/Interviews 

Similar to the newspaper 
ads. a series of appear- 
ances on telev ision and 
radio by leading SDl experts 
will inform the public of the 
benefits to be dern.ed from 
SDl research. Panicipants 
will Include academics, 
such as Or Edward Teller, 
defense specialists, media 
analvsis and others who 
will be fully briefed and able 
to present the case 
articulately and persuasive- 
ly The interviewed expens 
vs ill appear on national, 
regional and local telev ision 
and radio interview shows 

Newspaper Articles 

.NEPL will write and encour- 
age others to write signed 
articles on SDi which will be 
placed on opinion pages of 
the leading newspapers 
around the country Among 
these are the wall Street 
Journal, the Sew York 
Tinies. LS.\ Today, the 
washiitgton Post, the Los 



HNCl/ISSinED 



"Proceeding 
boldly with 
these new 
technologies, 
we can 
significantly 
reduce any 
incentive that 
the Soviet 
Union may 
have to 
threaten attack 
against the 
United States 
or its allies. 

Presidents Address to the 
Sation. March 23. 1 983 



^HcussiFm 



605 



OWCLASSIRFn 



.Ange/es Times and others. 
The opinion articles will be 
about 800 words in length 
and will seek to point out 
the aggressive nature of 
Soviet policies, the impact 
of Soviet propaganda on the 
debate and the wisdom 
of SDl. 

Television Documentary 

losing a credible, documen- 
tary style of presentation. 
NEPL is producing a i 5- to 
30-minute video program 
for television which 
explores the evolution of 
U.S.-Soviet competition and 
the promise of SDi to 
eliminate the threat of 
nuclear destruction. The 
program ■ ,1 counter the 
arguments of the nuclear 
freeze and the anti-nuclear 
movements, while present- 
ing unassailable, 
morally unimpeachable 
arguments in fa\ or of a 
defensive s>siem which 
kills no one. The completed 
video programs are to be 
given to local television 
stations for use in their news 
and current e\ ents 
schedules in addition, the 
programs can be used by 
speakers, as background or 



as introductions for 
inier\ lews, and by civic 
groups for panel discussion 
and other activities 

Coalition Building 

NEPL is convinced that the 
Strategic Defense initiative is 
a highly significant, crucially 
important program which all 
Americans have a moral 
and patriotic obligation to 
understand and judge. 
Therefore. NEPL will 
aggressively increase the 
possible impact of its pro- 
gram by making its informa- 
tion available to as many 
inidividuals and groups as 
possible. Individuals and 
groups throughout the coun- 
try stand ready to assist in 
this critical educational cam- 
paign, but they often lack 
the visual aids and written 
materials to present views 
effectively, we plan to put 
video programs, publi- 
cations, issues, papers and 
other information in their 
hands. A popular 
groundswell will be the 
result, one that will be able 
to counter effectively the 
inevitable propaganda 
barrage from 
opponents of SDl. 



". . . there con 
be no greater 
good than the 
quest for 
peace and no 
finer purpose 
than the 
preservation 
of freedom. " 

Presidents Address Before a 
Joint Session of Congress. 
S'ouember 2 1. l 985 



tjNCLA$S!F?ED 



606 



UNCLilSSIFiFn 



\ \I ION AL ll.NDOWMli.NT fOR THE PmiSURX ATION Ol- LIBCR Pi 

The National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 
(founded March 1 984i is a 50 1 ia3 organization which concen- 
trates its efforts on foreign policy issues relating to the expansion 
of freedom, the support of democracy and national security 
problems 

The Endowment's philosophy is that in a democracy, public 
policy IS most effectively influenced through a knowledgeable 
and informed electorate Therefore, to achieve its goals the 
Endowment develops and sponsors public information and 
education programs to increase public understanding of 
American foreign policy and world e\ ents 

The central focus of foundation activities in 1 985 and 1 986 
has been the violation of human rights in Nicaragua and the San- 
dinisia disinformation campaign targeted on the American public. 
During the past 20 months the Endowment sponsored television 
advertisements and a speakers program to increase public 
awareness of events in Central America. 

The Endowment is also concerned about the reduction of 
tension between the superpowers, believing that the full deploy- 
ment of the Strategic Defense initiative (SDD will facilitate a lessen- 
ing of friction between the United States and the Soviet union. In 
.Ma\' the Endowment began a comprehensive multi-media pro- 
gram to increase public understanding of space defense 

The .National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty is a 
non-profit (50 1 -€-3) organization wholly funded by contributions 
and grants from the private sector and not through any govern- 
ment funds. 



Graphic Designer George J vi< 

Photographer Michael Evans Official whiie House Phoiograpner 

Texi Carl Russell cnanneil 

Francis D Cornez 

Richata R Miller 



Typesening Joyce wnne 
Printer wesTland Enierpnses 



^^^fCMSSffe 



607 




608 



UNCLASSIFIED 



"This is my goal (that we 
Lvill be able to) pass on to 
our posterity f/ie gift of 
peace — that and freedom 
are the greatest gifts that 
one generation can 
bequeath to another." 

March 31. 1983 



UNCLASSIFIED 



609 



UNCLASSIFi'ED 



V jS«r «^j 




The Sandinista Military Build-up 




Released by the Department of State and the Department of Defense 

Partially OecidssitieJ'fie'eased on I^^* b6 
uncer i)fOvi5ir;ri3 oi t C I?356 



by K JoiiMion. Nalior.ai utjs.i'.i Council 



P'U.-^i ■ooirirr\ 



610 



THIS DOCUMENT IS AVAILABLE FROM PUBLIC SOURCES 



611 



^•NCUSSIF?EO 




PUBLIC REPORT 

OF THE 

VICE PRESIDENT'S TASK FORCE 

ON COMBATTING TERRORISM 



eieased on QptA ^P^ 



Oy K Jonnson, Naiionai Security Council 



FEBRUARY 1986 




For i»lf 6v (he Supenniendf nt of Docunwnis, L" S Oovfrnmcm Pnty^i 
Wuhington. DC ■:O402 



riTM ftQCir'Cn 



612 



THIS DOCUMENT IS AVAILABLE FROM PUBLIC SOURCES 



613 



r^B. i-6, 




Rclessefl nn )I*-(£^ 8P> 
by K Johnson, Nauonai Secuii.v Council 



f^: 



CNi^l flMircD 



614 



THIS DOCUMENT IS AVAILABLE FROM PUBLIC SOURCES 



615 



mmm 



W':>\c--^\p:^ 



TRANSCRIPT 
OF PROCEEDINGS 



ORIGINW. 



CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 




DBPOSITION OF DUNCAN OSBORNE 

Washington, D. C. 
Thursday, April 2, 1987 



Ace-Federal R eport ers, Inc. 

Sitnotype Repoiifrs 




m>2. 



444 North Capitol Street . / -) 

■^ Washmgwn, DC. 20001 ^^ci ^Y\ L- 
, ^^ ^ ^ X. /p^ 7 (202)347-3700 

nadcr pravWom of LO. 12356 NationMrideComastl ||| A| lAAinrn 

||byD.Slriu>.hUdon«JS««HtyC«0.dl 800-336-6646 lllurl fl\\|nr|| 



616 



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UNCussm 



UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF DUNCAN OSBORNE 

Washington, D.C. 
Thursday, April 2, 1987 
Deposition of DUNCAN OSBORNE, called for 
examination pursuant to notice of deposition, at the 
offices of the Select Committee, Room 901, Hart Senate 
Office Building, at 5:47 a.m., before GARY S. HOWARD, a 
Notary Public within and for the District of Columbia, when 
were present: 

JAMES E. KAPLAN, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 

United States Senate Select Committee on 
Secret Military Assistance to Iran and 
the Nicaraguan Opposition 
Room 901, Senate Hart Office Building 
Washington, D.C. 



UNCUSSIFIED 

ArF-FrnFRAI REPORTERS iNr 



617 



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UNCUSSiriED 



KEN BUCK, Esq. 
THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 

House Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions With Iran 



UNCLASSIHED 



\ *-»•- Cr-r^^** . » Dt-I^Z-^OTC 



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UNCUSSIRED 



C-O-N-T-E-N-T-S 



WITNESS 

Duncan Osborne 
by Mr. Fryman 



EXAMINATION 



UNCLASSIFIED 



OcDr^oTCDc Tk 



619 



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UNCUSSIFIED 



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P-R-0-C-E-E-D-I-M-G-S 
Whereupon, 

DUNCAN OSBORNE 
was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Mr. Osborne, would you state your full name for 
the record? 

A Duncan Elliott Osborne. 
Q And what is your position? 

A I'm an attorney. I'm a lawyer with the law firm 
of Graves, Dougherty, Hearon & Moody, in Austin. 



Q 

A 

Q 

A 
trusts. 



A 
1976. 



undei provisions oi LO. 123iu 
^b)r O. Sirfjo, National Security Councl 



And are you a partner in that firm? 

I'm a partner in that firm. 

And what is your special area? 

I specialize in the area of wills, estates and 

And how long have you been a partner in the firm? 
I've been a partner in the firm since January of 

For the record, Mr. Osborne, prior to the 



mm&m.. .. 



620 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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garyhoward 1 

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commencement of this deposition, you were given a copy of a 
subpoena from the House Select Committee, as well as a copy 
of a subpoena from the Senate Select Committee. 
Is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q And you've also been provided with copies of the 
rules of the House committee and the resolution 
establishing the House committee, and comparable documents 
for the Senate committee. 
Is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

Q Now, Mr. Osborne, you were present during the 
deposition of Mrs. Glanz and you heard her testimony about 
a meeting with you on April 14, 1986, during which time she 
handed you a list which contained notations regarding 
certain types of arms. 

Do you recall that testimony? 

A Yes, I do, and that's correct. 

Q And you did receive such a list from Mrs. Glanz on 
that date? 

A Yes, I did. 

What do you recall that Mrs. Glanz told you at 



uMtussra.. .. 



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that time? 

A Mrs. Glanz handed me a list and said Mrs. Garwood 
brought this back from Washington, and she wants to make a 
contribution to help meet the needs of the Contras, or 
words to that effect. 

Q Did you look at the list? 

A Yes, r did. 

Q VJhat do you recall appeared on it? 

A In pencil, there was a list of armaments. I 
cannot recall specifically what the armaments were, but 
they were clearly weapons of war, things like anti-aircraft 
missiles, cartridge belts, pistols, hand grenades. And, 
again, I'm not sure any of those things specifically were 
on the list, but they were certainly things of that nature. 

Were there dollar amounts on the list? 

A I'm not sure, but I think so. 

How large apiece of paper was the list? 

A The list was about the size of a piece of small 
notepad paper, maybe four or five inches long and three or 
four inches wide. 

v/as it on white paer? 



Yes, it was. 



UNtLASSiflEi) 



622 



UNCUSsm 



37 01 01 
yaryhoward 1 Q Was there any sort of letterhead on the list: 

2 A I don't think so. 

3 I Now what did you do with the list after Mrs. Glanz 

4 I gave it to you? 

5 A I put it down on my desk. 

6 Q Were there other materials on your desk? 

7 A Yes, there were. 

8 i Q What types of materials? 

9 i A There were other files and file folders and other 

10 I pieces of paper, miscellaneous notes, correspondence, legal 

11 ' pads. 

12 ' Now, after Mrs. Glanz handed you the list, did you 

13 ' discuss Mrs. Garwood's affairs with her for a period of 

14 j time? 

15 I A Yes, I did. 

16 I • Q And where was the list when Mrs. Glanz left your 

17 office? 

18 A My recollection is that I returned the list to 

19 Mrs. Glanz. 

20 Q At that initial meeting with her? 

21 A At that initial meeting with her, yes, sir. 

22 Q Do you recall saying anything to her when you gave 



UNCliS^Eim 



623 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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2 

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I 

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IS 

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8 



her the list? 

A I can't recall with any accuracy or specificity 
what I said, but my intention was to get the list back to 
Mrs. Garwood. 

Now, did you have any other discussion about the 
list with Mrs. Glanz in April or May of 1986? 

A So, I did not. 

Did you have any discussion concerning the list 
with Mrs. Garwood in April or May of 1986? 

A None whatsoever. 

Did you have any discussion of the list with 
anyone else in April or May of 1986? 

A No, I don't believe I did. 

Before, according to your recollection, you 
returned the list to Mrs. Glanz, did you make a copy of the 
list? 

A No, I did not. 

Did you have anyone else make a copy? 

A No, 1 did not. 

Q Have you seen the list since April 14, 1986? 

A No, I have not. 

Q Has anyone since April 14, 1986 indicated to you 

U(tCliSSiE&. ,. 



624 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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in any way the location of the list? 

A No, they have not. No one has. 

Now you were aware of Mrs. Glanz's testimony that 
she left the list with you during your meeting on April 
14th. 

A That is correct. I'm aware of that testimony. 

Q And that the list was never returned to her. 

A That's what she said, that's correct. 

You're aware of that testimony? 

A Yes. 

Q Now, have you caused any search to be made of your 
office for this list? 

A Yes, I have. 

Would you describe the nature of the search? 

A I keep fairly detailed records of the time that I 
expend for my clients. I went back and reviewed my 
timesheets to see what files I was working on in April of 
1986, and referred to files approximately a week prior to 
April 14th, 1986, and the week after April 14th, 1986. I 
made a list of all of those files. And then either I or, 
in some cases, other attorneys in my office who have 
primary responsibility for those files, searched each file 



FRS fNr 





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UNCLASSIFIED 



10 



on a piece-of-paper by piece-of-paper basis, looking Eor 
the list. 

And what was the result of the search? 

A That the list was not located. 

Do you have any reason to believe that the list 
has been destroyed? 

A No. I can only say that both Mrs. Glanz and 
myself reacted negatively to the list. But I did not 
destroy it and I gave no instruction that it should be 
destroyed. 

Q VJell, do you have any reason to believe that it 

was destroyed? 

A No. 

Mr. Osborne, it is the House committee's position 

that the subpoena served on you imposes a continuing 

P 

obligation with resect to this list. In the event that 
A 

the list is discovered, it is our position that you are 
obligated to make it available to the staff of the House 
committee. And I believe that would apply to the Senate 
committee as well. 

MR. KAPLAN: Yes, that's correct. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 



wsmm.. 



626 



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ydryhoward 1 



UNCLASSIFIED 



11 



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Do you understand that? 
A Yes, I understand that. 

MR. FRYMAN: All right. I have no further 
questions. My colleagues, Mr. Kaplan and Mr. Buck, can now 
ask further questions. 

MR. KAPLAN: I have no further questions. I 
appreciate your cooperation in appearing in sworn testimony 
before the committees today. 

THE WITNESS: Thank you. 

MR. BUCK: I also have no further questions. 

MR. FRYMAN: Thank you, Mr. Osborne. 

(Signature not waived.) 

(Whereupon, at 6:00 p.m., the taking of the 
deposition was concluded.) 



Duncan E. Osborne 



IINCDISSIFIEO 



627 



UNCUSSIFIED 



12 



I, 



CERTIFICATE OF NOTA RY PUBLIC & REPORTER 

, the officer before 



Garv S . Howard 



whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby 
certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the 
testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand and 
thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my 
direction; that said deposition is a true record of the 
testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel 
for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 
the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further, 
that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 
counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 






Notary P'uBlic in and for the 
District of Columbia 



My Commission Expires November 14, 1990. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



628 



4:15 



3TEIN 
QUINTERO 



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DNBCASSIFHBlr 
UNCLASSIFIED 






DEPOSITION OF ROBERT OWEN 



Monday, April 20, 1987 



House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 

Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 



The select committee met, pursuant to call, at 
4:15 p.m., in Room H-128, The Capitol, W. Neil Eggleston 
(deputy chief counsel for the committee) presiding. 
Also present: Jack Taylor, Investigator, Select Committee 
to Investigate Covert Arms with Iran; Richard J. Leon, 
Deputy Counsel, Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
with Iran; Terry Smiljanich, Associate Counsel, United 
States Senate, Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
to Iran; Thomas Hylden, and Leonard C. Greenebaum, Law Firm 
of Sachs, Greenebaum 6 Taylor, Counsel for Witness. 



^^mtions of EO. m^s^ 



UNCLASSIFIED HOZS 



629 



10 

11 

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13 
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UffiStft^flEi:'!' 



Whereupon, ROBERT OWEN, after having been first 
duly sworn, was called as a witness and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Mr. Owen, I am Neil Eggleston, Deputy Chief 
Counsel of the House Select Committee to Investigate Covert 
Arms Transactions with Iran. The purpose of this committee 

as set forth in H.R. 12, is to investigate various activities 

a 

including both the Iran initiative and the activities of 

various individuals in connection with the activities in 
Central America, particularly the Contras in Nicaragua 

You are present here today pursuant to a subpoena 
which has been issued by this committee and that subpoena 
compelled you to be here today 

Let me ask you two questions: First, pursuant to 
that subpoena and pursuant to the compulsion order, let me 
ask you first, Mr. Owen, do you know a man by the naune of 
Oliver North? 
"•9 A I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it 

20 might incriminate me 

21 Q Mr. Owen, you have also been provided with duplicat s 

22 subpoenas, one directed to yourself, one directed to the 

23 Institute for Democracy, Education and Assistance, and one 

24 directed to the Council for Democracy, Education and 

25 Assistance. Let_nie.ask vounow prior to the time that you 



IM^ili 



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UNm^ffiffT 



have been granted immunity, whether you have any documents 
to provide this committee pursuant to those three subpoenas? 

A Again, I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might incriminate me. 

Q Mr. Owen, let me advise you that a U.S. District 
Court judge for the District of Columbia has issued an order, 
and I am going to read that order to you, and read that order 
into the record. I might also add that I have produced 
and provided a copy of this order to your counsel. 
MR. GREENEBAUM: We have the order. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q Nevertheless, just so the record is clear, I will 
read it into the record. 

It is captioned in the United States District 
Court for the District of Columbia, and the caption "House 
Select Coramittee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions 
with Iran, U.S. House of Representatives, Washington, D.C., 
20515, Applicant, Misc. No. 87-0104." There is a stamp 
on it indicating it was mailed March 30, 1987. 

"On consideration of the application by the House 
Select Coramittee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions 
with Iran and the memorandum of points and authorities, and 

23 exhibits, in support thereof, the Court finds that the pro- 

24 cedural requisites set forth in 18 U.S.C § 6005 for an 

25 order of the Court have beeij^s^tisf i^^ Accordingly, it is 




631 



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4 
ORDERED that Robert Owen may not refuse to provide any 



evidence in proceedings before the House Select Committee 
to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran on the 
basis of his privilege against self-incrimination, and it is 
FURTHER ORDERED that no evidence obtained under this Order 
(or any information directly or indirectly derived from 
such evidence) may be used against Robert Owen in any 
criminal case, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a 

Q 

false statement, or otherwise failing to comply with this 

Order. " 

"It is FURTHF.R ORDERED that this order shall 

become effective on April 19, 1987, signed by: Aubrey E. 

Robinson, Jr., dated: March 30, 1987." 

I also note for the record that today is April 

20tK, so the order is effective. The document I just 

read to you has the certification and the seal of the U.S 

District Court for the District of Columbia on it. 
18 This order, by its terms, removes your privilege 

1^ against self-incrimination. And in light of this order 

20 r direct you to respond to the questions that have been 

21 posed to you, and other questions that will be posed to you 

22 And I would also ask the court reporter to direct you to 

23 respond to these questions. 

24 (Reporter directs witness to respond to questions of counsel. 



25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Mr. Owen, let me first ask you various questions 
with regard to the subpoenas which have been served on you. 

First is a subpoena issued to Robert Owen, issued 
by the House Select Committee, which is dated, I think the 
24th of February, 1987, sinb^d by Lee Hamilton, the Chairman 
of the Committee. 

Mr. Owen, do you have any documents, now that you 



have been granted immunity ancyou are compelled to respond 



to the questions that the committee poses to you, let me 
ask you whether you have any documents which are responsive 
to the subpoena? 

MR. GREENEBAUM: Let me respond for the 
record. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Certainly. 
MR. GREENEBAUM: In anticipation of the 
' immunity order and the direction to respond, Mr. Owen has 
'" brought certain documents to facilitate as well as supple- 
'' ment his testimony, which we would not have produced but 

20 for the immunity order. I want that clear for the record. 

21 BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

22 Q I take it then, Mr. Owen, that you do have 

23 documents to produce in response to that part of the 

24 subpoena? 

25 A Yes, I, 






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Q Could you provide those to us so that the court 
reporter may mark those documents? 

MR. EGGLESTON: Court Reporter, could you 
mark this as RO-1, of today's date, and if you would just 
mark the box for this purpose, at a later time we will go 
through the documents in a more comprehensive fashion. 

(The following document was marked as Exhibit 
RO-1 for identification:) 

COMMITTEE INSERT 



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BY MR, EGGLESTON: 
Q Mr. Owen, you have now provided various documents 
in response to the subpoena issued to you personally. Let 
me ask you, do you also have documents which you are going to 
produce to the committee in response to the subpoena com- 
pelling you to produce documents which have been issued to 
the Institute for Democracy, Education and Assistance? 

MR. EGGLESTON: I understand, Mr. Greenebaum, the 
comments that you made about the Owen subpoena issued 
to Mr. Owen on behalf of the IDEA; is that correct? 

MR. GREENEBAUM: That is correct. 

THE WITNESS: I do have those documents. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Please mark this RO-2. 
(The following document was marked as Exhibit RO-2 
for identification:) 

COMMITTEE INSERT 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q Mr. Owen, there was a third subpoena which was 
served on you which is also dated 24 February. It is 
directed to the Council for Democracy, Education and 
Assistance. Do you have any documents to produce pursuant 
to that subpoena? 

A No, I don't. I am no longer associated with that 
association. 

Q And you have no documents of that organization 
under your custody or control? 

A No , I don ' t . 

Q Previous to the time that I read to you the 
immunity order and directed you to respond and that 
the Court Reporter directed you to respond, I asked a 
question about whether or not you knew Oliver L. North. 
Now that you have been granted immunity or that the immunity 
order has been conferred on you, let me ask you again, do 
you know a man by the name of Oliver L. North? 

A Yes. 

MR. EGGLESTON: At this time, unless there is an 
objection, I will ask that this deposition be adjourned. 

MR. GREENEBAUM: That is satisfactory. 
(Whereupon, at 4:25 p.m., the deposition was adjourned.) 



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^■:)\Ts-54^^ 



COPY Na__l— — OF — 6. jCOPIES 



I. 



DEPOSITION OF ROBERT W. OWEN 



Monday, May 4, 1987 




Yx^-2. 



U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 

Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington,- D.C. 



Partially Declassified/Released on. 

under provisions o( E.O, 12356 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 



|(Jft-N86 



The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:00 a.m., in 
Room H-128, the Capitol, with W. Neil Eggleston (Deputy Chief 
of House Select Committee) presiding. 

Present: W. Neil Eggleston, Deputy Chief Counsel; 
Richard L. Leon, Deputy Chief Minority Counsel, on behalf of 
the House Select Committee on Covert Arras Transactions with 
Iran; Dee Benson, Personal Representative to Senator Orrin 
Hatch; Terry Smiljanich, Associate Counsel, United States 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition; and Richard H. Giza, Subcommittee 
on Evaluation, Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. 

Also present: Leonard C. Greenebaum, Sachs, Greenebaum & 



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' Tayler; and Thomas Hylden, Attorney At Law, Sachs, Greenebaum 



& Tayler, on behalf of the deponent. 



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MR. fiGGLESTON: Mr. Owen, for the record, my name is 
Neil Eggleton, Deputy Chief Counsel to the House Select 
Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran. 

This deposition is being conducted both by the House 
Committee and the Senate Committee, and it is in furtherance ol 
resolutions which establish both of ♦:hose committees and pro- 
vided for depositions to conduct those investigations. 

Let me say at the outset thiat this deposition is 
a continuation of a deposition which began some days ago, at 
which time you were formally granted and presented with an 
immunity order which immunized statements and any evidence 
derived from any statements you may have made. 

This deposition is a continuation of that deposition, 
and so it is similarly subject to those same provisions. 

I might also say for the record that moments ago you 
were sworn in by a notary public. 

Let me also say that this deposition is being 
conducted in order to provide some of the information or put 
down some of the information that you have provided to us in a 
form we have talked at some length now about various aspects ol 
your involvement from 1984 through 1986 . 

This is certainly not intended to be comprehensive. 
I am going to ask you questions about various areas. I know 
that you have taken lots of trips that you are not going to be J 
testifying to today because I am not going to ask you about 
them. 



UNCLASSiFIED 



639 



25 



mtmB 



' I am going to ask you just some things about various 

2 conversations, and I know that you have had a number of 

^ conversations with various people that I am not going to ask 

* you about, so I understand that during the course of this, you 

5 are simply responding to my questions. You are not saying 

® everything you know about your involvement in this activity 

7 from 1984 to 1986. 

8 MR. GREENEBAUM: With your permission, I would like 

9 to elaborate for a moment. I think the record should reflect 
'0 the immunity order and the direction to testify came after he 
" asserted his constitutional rights not to testify, and while 
^2 I appreciate that you don't plan to ask him aUDOut all the 

13 things he knows about, I think the record should also reflect 

14 that he has been interviewed and that you have already asked 

15 him about those. It is not just a matter of his not testifying 

16 edjout things you know he knows, but things that he has discusse ; 

17 with you, and that he has been forthcoming and complete in his 

18 answers. 

19 I assume that the discussions are protected by the 

20 immunity order as well as the testimony based on — 

21 MR. EGGLESTON: That is correct. 

22 i MR. GREENEBAUM: I guess that should include the 

23 documents. 

24 MR. EGGLESTON: In addition, you provided Mr. Owen 
various documents subDoenaed Diiraiiant,a'(i&BKP^ *"*^ organizations 




D 



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UKSdfiKEO 



' with which you were associated. Those documents were also 

2 provided only after the immunity order was granted on you, and 

^ indeed some of the questioning today will be based on documents 

* that you provided to us, after the immunity order was served 

5 upon you. 

^ WHEREUPON, 

7 RODERT W. OWEN 

8 was called as a witness and, having been duly sworn, was 

9 further examined and testified as follows: 

10 EXAMINATION BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

11 Q Mr. Owen, could you just tell me very briefly about 

12 your educational background and your work backgroud up until 

13 the time you began with Gray & Company? 

14 A I graduated from high school from Moses Brown School 

15 in Providence, Rhode Island, in 1971, went to Philipps Academy 

16 in Andover for the next few years, and then I graduated and 

17 attended Stanford University and subsequently graduated in 

18 1978. 

19 From 1976 — from 1977, I worked in St. Paul School 

20 in Concord, New Hampshire, and from 1977 to 1980, I worked at 

21 the Brentwood School in Los Angeles, California. 

22 In the summer of 1980, I made a decision to go to 

23 Thailand to work with the U.R. Refugee Program, and I did that 

24 in the fall of 1980. I returned to the United States when I 

25 heard my father was terminally ill with cancer in late 1980. 



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I came to Washington seeking employment in 1981, 
and started in September with the Senate Republican Conference. 
I worked there until March of 1982, where I then went to 
work for Senator Dan Quayle as Assistant Press Secretary and 
then moved into his slot as Legislative Assistant for Foreign 
Affairs, and I did that, working with him until late 198 3, 
where I then wer.t to work for Gray & Company in their Inter- 
national Division, and I worked from there until late 1984 and 
from then started my involvement with this effort. 

Q Curing the period of time that you were at Gray & 
Company, did you work on a proposal relating to the contras? 

A Yes, in the spring of 1984, I believe it was in 
April, either one of our vice presidents was approached by 
Bosco Motainorris or they just met and perhaps the vice presi- 
dent asked that there might be something we could do for them. 
Neal Livingston, who was then senior Vice President 
at Gray t Company asked me to follow up on it. I had several 
meetings with Bosco Motamorris, a representative. FDN and a 
fellow by the name of Alvero Rizzo. 

But after my first meeting, I went to talk with 
Lieutenant Oliver North of the NSC to discuss this with him. 
Q IS this the first time you met with Colonel North? 
A No. I met the colonel, I believe, in July 198 3 
when I was with Senator Quayle, an Indiana constituent named 
John Holt had come to our office along with three other people 



11 



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He had just come in from Costa Rica and had a 
Nicaraguan with him who had just come in off of fighting in 
Nicaragua. I felt that it was important that they get to see 
as many people as possible in the United States Government to 
talk about what was going on down there, and one of the meet- 
ings I had was with Lieutenant Oliver North. 

Q xou have indicated while you were with Gray & Company 
there was an approach made about whether or not Gray & 
Company could do some work for the contras and I take it that 
resulted in some sort of a report? 

A After I went to see Colonel North, I asked him 
where this was coming from, and he said that certain people had 
suggested to the FDN that they find representation in 
Washington, and it was my understanding he said that they had 
given him a list of names of companies. 

We had several meetings, and out of that, came a 
proposal that Neal Livingston, senior vice president, and i 
worked on where we suggested that possibly proprietary compan- 
ies be set up. 

This would be outside of Gray & Company's involve- 
ment. This would be in a private effort, because at that time 
we knew the funding was running low, and they needed some way 
to find a bridge gap until congressional money would be 
removed. 

Q And what did you do with the document that you and 
Mr. Livingston — 



iiNHi hmm 



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1 MR. GREENEBAUMj I am not sure he finished his 

2 answer. 

3 THE WITNESS: I am fine. I provided to Lieutenant 
* Colonel Oliver North in there there were several options. One 
5 was going with the proprietary route and the other was setting 
® up some non-profit organizations which could then go out and 

7 actively fund raise for humanitarian goods. 

8 The proprietaries would be used to purchase- things 

9 that may not be able to be purchased inside the United States. 

10 BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

11 Q By things, what are you referring to? 

12 A Arms and other military needs that they may have. 

13 Q Did you discuss the memorandum with Colonel North? 

14 A Yes, I did. 

15 Q Do you remember approximately the time frame when 

16 you provided the memorandum to Colonel North? 

17 A That probably was in May of 1984. 

18 Q Did you discuss the memorandum with Colonel North? 

19 A Yes, I did. 

20 Q And what was the discussion? 
A Out of that, a decision was made that I would go 

down do a survey^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|looking 
at what their needs would be. 



21 
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24 At that time, I also suggested I take a 

25 representative from a congressional office with me, because I 

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' thought it would be good that they have a clear idea of what 

2 was going to be needed, in case or when the President submitte 

^ another request for funding for them. 

* ' We flew from Washington to Costa Rica in May of 

^ 1986, and I subsequently stayed down there until June 5 of 

6 1984. This was 1984, not 1986. 

7 Q And while down there, did you have occasion to speak 

8 with people associated with the FDN? 

9 A Yes, I did. 

10 ' Q Did you discuss with them their funding needs? 

11 A Yes, I did. I was told that they would need a 

12 minimum of $1 million a month to continue, and if they were to 

13 have the same military resources such as arms and other things 

14 they would probably need a million and a half a month and that 

15 would potentially help them grow a little bit as well. 

16 Q When the trip was over, did you speak to Colonel 

17 North about the trip you were taking? 

18 A Yes, I did. 

19 Xi And did you tell him about the military, the 

20 financial needs that the FDN had relayed to you? 

21 A Yes. I did at least one, it not two, reports 

22 which went over the needs, and also the present situation 

23 that was taking place at the time the Sandinistas were involve 

an of fensive ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^nd 

25 this happened at the same time that the attempted assassinatio 



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of Eden Pastora occurred. 

Q And did you discuss with Colonel North the 

requirement of $1.5 million, if the contras were to expand 
their military capability? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q You indicated that you were down in Costa Rica at 
the time the bombing took place. What do you know about the 
bombing? 

A I was staying at John Hull's apartment in San Jose, 
and that evening I had a brief meeting with theR^Hat the tim< 
It was more of a get-togethei 
^^^^^^^^I^^^^^^^H he a 

other. 

We discussed the situation and also the needs of 
the South. We were woken up that evening by several Nicarag- 
uans who came to the house and told John that a bombing had 
taken place, that Pastora was wounded. They didn't know when 
whether he was killed or not. 

They subsequently asked John to go out and help 
bring in the wounded. 1 believe he got in touch with some 
representatives of the United States Embassy, and the decision 
was made that he would not go out there. 

Previously that day, we talked with members of the 
then-Pastora Air Force, a quasi-Air Force, and they had asked 
what they should do with their planes, because the funding was 



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' being dropped. 

2 



We didn't necessarily think it was appropriate 
that they were talking with us, but as they asked, we suggeste 
they move the planes ^^^^^^^^^^^^^und they ended up doing 
that. 

Q Do you recall writing a letter to Colonel North 
^ around July 2, 1984? 

® A I may have. I wrote a number of them. 
' Q There is a reference in a letter which we have ob- 
tained from Colonel ^Jorth's office. It says, "As for the toys 
we talked about, I will be having a meeting this week to learn 
what clarifications are needed." 

Do you recall what that was a reference to? 
'^ A It would have been talking about arms. Toys would 
'5 have been arms. 
'6 Q And later in that document, there is a reference 

17 to an individual that you were meeting with. Do you recall 

18 who that individual was? 

19 A I don't recall the individual's name, but he had 

20 done work ir 

21 Q By done work, what do you mean? 

22 A I believe he may — he is an Anverican who may have 

23 done some representation. 

24 Q And you don't recall who it was? 

25 A No, not right offhand. I think if I think about it 

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I may be able to come up with it. It was suggested that I get 
together with him because he would potentially have access to 
putting together a deal for the procurement of articles out of 



letter; 



MR. SMILJANICH: Could you read the date of that 

THE WITNESS: July 2, 1984. 

MR. SMILJANICH: Who is it addressed to? 

THE WITNESS: "Dear Ollie." I was dumb enough to 



sign it, 



BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q Signed Rob; is that correct? 

A Signed Rob, yes. 

Q Mr. Owen, did you attend a meeting in August of 1984 
in Dallas? 

A Yes. I was working out of Dallas as a volunteer 
for the Reagan — for the Republican Convention, and Oliver 
North flew out for a meeting of CNP, which is the Council for 
National Policies. It is a conservative non-profit organiza- 
tion. 

Also in attendance at that meeting were Adolfo 
Colero and General Jack Singlaub. I met General Singlaub for 
the first time and it may have been the first time I met with 
Adolfo Colero; I don't remember. 

Q Did the four of you all meet at the same time? 



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1 A We met a couple different times over that period. 

2 I think it was maybe two days. 

3 Q And what were the discussions about among your 

4 people? 

5 A The discussions of fundraising for the FDN, the need 

6 to find assistance for them so they can get through this bridg 

7 period until the United States picked up assistance again. 

8 Q Was there discussion about the need to provide 

9 military equipment to the contras? 
JO A I believe so. 

J J Q And that was a discussion among yourself, Colonel 

12 North, Mr. Calero, and General Singlaub? 

j3 A Yes, I believe so. 

j4 Q Let me direct your attention to late October of 198 4 

J5 During that time period, approximately October 26 to the 31st 

j5 of 1984 , did you take a trip 



A May I clarify one thing? It wasn't until late 
August or in August some time that we did submit a proposal 
from Gray & Company to the FDN. Gray & Company made a dec i sic 
that it did not want to represent the FDN, and Adolfo Calero 
felt it was probably too expensive and prohibitive to do that 
anyway, so he and I had several discussions during this period 

From October to October I did go^^^^^^^^^^^^H 
and while there I did meet with Adolfo Calero. 

Q Did you have conversations with Calero about you 



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' working for him? 

2 A Yes, at that time he and I had talked about 

3 possibilities, and I made an offer that I would be willing to 
* leave Gray & Company and work full time in an effort to help 
^ them in any way that I could. 

6 Q Was there any discussion with him about how much he 

7 would pay you for that? 

8 A It may have taken place there or just when we got 

9 back in Washington, but a decision was made that I would be 

10 paid $2,500 a month and most of my expenses for whatever trave 

11 that I incurred. 

12 Q Did you have any conversation with him at this time 

13 about what it was that you would do for him? 

14 A It was very loosely defined and it was doing 

15 anything that I could to help them in the cause, whether it 

16 be from a public relation* effort to providing information 

17 to keeping track of things here in Washington. 
16 Q Did you also have conversations down there with 
t9 Mr. Calero and John Hull? 

A Yei, I had been talking to Mr. Calero some time 
about John Hull and his ability or his knowledge of the effort 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 and 
Mr. Calero to Mr. Hull at that meeting. 

Q And were there any financial _arran^^|^|^discussed 
between the two of them? 




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A They discussed about Mr. Calero providing Mr. Hull 
with funds to again be a bridge gap for the effort in the 
South. These funds would provide food and humanitarian 
goods for the contras in the South. 

Q And how much money was Calero going to give to Hull 
in order to help with the humanitarian assistance in the South 
A $10,000 a month. 
® Q And do you know how long those payments lasted? 
® A I believe they lasted into September, possibly 
October 1985. 

Q And at that time is when — 
'2 A The NHAL funding came in. 

'3 Q The United States Government humanitarian assistance 
'* began? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Let me direct your attention to mid-November of 1984 
•7 At that time, did you take a trip to Central America? 

18 A Yes, I was still working for Gray & Company, but I 

19 ; took personal leave. Colonel North had invited me over to his 

20 office and we had several discussions, and he provided me with 

21 pictures and also maps which showed the gun emplacements aroun 

22 the Augusto Sandino Airport in Managua, Nicaragua, and he aske 

23 me to take this material down^^^^^^^^^Lind give it to Adolf 

24 Calero. 

25 Q Do you know where Colonel North obtained the maps? 

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A I believe it was from the CIA, but I am not positive 
on that. 

Q What did Colonel North tell you about where he 
obtained them, if anything? 

A I believe he may have said he got it from across th( 
river. 

Q Did he mention any particular individual's name? 

A No. 

Q Did he ever tell you who it was across the river wh 
provided them to you? 

A No, not at this time. 

Q By across the river, did you understand Langley, 
which is the headquarters for the CIA? 

A I Suspected as much. 

Q Was across the river frequently the way Colonel Nor 
or occasionally the way Colonel North referred to the CIA? 

A It was either across the river or up the river. 
It varied. 

Q And what was the purpose of taking the maps down to 
Calero? 

A At that time, the information had come in that the 
Soviets had provided MI-24 helicopters to the Sandinistas, 
and they were being put together at the Sandino Airport in 
Managua 




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^ ^^^^^^^ The thought was that the FDN could undertake a 

® mission with their push-and-pull aircraft, they had three of 

^ them at the time, to attack the Sandino Airport and try and 

® destroy some of the MIG 24s, excuse me, MI-24s, before they 

^ were put together and just destroy them on the ground. 

'0 Q Do you know whether such a mission was every 

" attempted? 

'2 A No, a decision was made not to do it. It would 

'3 have probably ended up in a suicide mission. 

'4 Q Let me direct your attention now to mid-February 9 

15 or 10 of February 1985. Did you take additional maps down, as 

16 best you recall, take additional maps down to Central America 

17 at that time? 

18 A Yes, at that time I had already left Gray & Company 

19 and I was working in essence full time, and trying to help the 

20 effort, and I had a meeting with Colonel North and he asked me 

21 to take a trip down there and ferry some maps and other things 

22 for him. 

23 Q And did you obtain maps from Colonel North? 

24 A Yes. I went over to the White House early one morn- 

25 ing, and to the Situation Room, and he showed me the largest 

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map which I was to take down, but it was stapled or already 
put on, I guess you would call it a back-up board or Styrofoam 
board. 

It was too large to be able to handle, and he made 
a comment, well, that just shows the incompetence of the CIA. 

Q Did he make any telephone calls to anyoody? 

A He did. He said, "Look, why don't you come back 
this afternoon and I will try and get something. I will call 
over there and we will try and get a smaller version." 

I went back, I believe that afternoon, and he still 
did not come through with the new version that they wanted me 
to take, and picked up the phone again and called over the 
agency and asked them where it was. 

Q Do you know who it was he spoke to at the agency? 

A I believe it was| 

Q Did you know^^^^^^^^BVposition at that time? 

A I believe I knew that he was Director of the Task 
Force although I am not sure. 

Q The Central American Task Force? 

A Yes. Actually, at that time, he may have tried to 
get^^^^^^^^^^^^^Lnd he might not have been available , 
he may have talked to one or two other people trying to get 
the -- find out when the material would be ready. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Could I have this marked RO-3. 




UNCLASSIFIED 



654 



uiusiyeED 



19 



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(Whereupon, RO Exhibit No. 3 was marked 
for identification.) 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Let me show you what has been marked RO-3, which is 
a letter that begins, "Dear Friend." 

MR. GREENEBAUM: I am sorry. It says "My friend." 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q "My friend," thank you. 

Based on the contents of this letter, do you have an 
opinion about who it was sent to or who it was addressed to? 

A I believe it would have been addressed to Adolfo 
Calero and the contents of the letter shows that I may have 
taken it down with me on that February trip, because at that 
time on the map were located various Sandinista positions and 
also Lieutenant Colonel North was talking about the need for 
the FDN to move its location from^^^^^^^H'here its command 
location was to another locatior 




Q There was handwriting on the draft which I have just 
shown you marked RO-3. Do you recognize the handwriting? 
A It looks like Colonel North's. 




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Q There is a paragraph at the very bottom of the page 
making a reference to $20 million being deposited in the 
usual account. 

Did you know at the time that money was going to be 
deposited, money in that amount was going to be deposited into 
an acoount? 

A No, but I believe that Colonel North told me to 
tell Adolfo that funds were coming. 

Q Did Colonel North tell you where the funds were 
coming from? 

A No, he did not. 

Q Did he tell you that the funds would be of this 
magnitude? 

A No, he didn't. 

Q Are you learning this now for the first time? 

A I had seen that document before. 



656 



UNSiKSSntD 



21 



' Q On page 2, the last paragraph, there is a reference 

2 to "my British friend and his service for special operations." 

* 'do you know to whom he is referring when he refers 

* to the British friend? 

5 A No, I don't know the individuals by name, although 

6 on one occasion in one of my meetings with Colonel North he 

7 discussed how he did have sorre — I should say made reference 

8 to the fact that he had some British friends who were doing 

9 some special operations for him. 

!0 Q Did he tell you what the special operations were? 

11 A At that time, it had been announced in the newspaper 

12 that there had been several explosions in downtown Managua and 

13 the Sandinistas were trying to say it was near a hospital and 

14 they were just minor explosions, but then he mentioned that 

15 some of his friends had caused them, I believe it was an ammu- 

16 nition dump to be blown up. 

17 Q And he indicated to you that his British friends had 

18 done that? 

19 A Right. 

20 Q Who did you understand the British friends to be? 

21 Were they official British military? 

22 A I had no idea. I didn't pursue it with him. 

23 Q Was it your understanding that — 

24 A I believe at one time he may have said they were 
SAS. 



25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



657 









UKI)t<t!SWED 



22 



Q In fact, there is a reference to them in this 
letter they were SAS; is that correct? 

A I believe so. 

Q But it was your understanding that they had engaged 
in this — 

A In essence, they were doing some contract work. 

Q For Ollie Ncth? 

A That is my summation. 

Q Do you recall when you returned from this trip, as 
best you now recall, when you returned from this trip with a 
munitions list from Mr. Calero? 

A I believe I may have, yes. 

Q And I take it there were occasions that you do recall 
returning from trips to Central America with munitions list? 

A Yes. 

Q And this may have been one of those occasions? 

A Yes. 

Q Assuming that you are remembering right that this 
was one of those occasions, who did you give the munitions 
list to? 

A Oliver North. 

Q And do you recall anything about this particular 
munitions list, what was on it, what was requested? 

A No, other than it was small arms ammunition, and 
at the time the FDN was in need of everything, mortar rounds, 



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M-79, anununition, and just things that they would need to 
continue their operations. 

Q Did you discuss the list with Colonel North? 

A I just gave it to him and went over it briefly with 
him, that is, if this was the occasion that I brought them 
back. There were several times and I just can't remember the 
dates. 

Q Did you also go down to Costa Rica in late February 
and early March of 1985? 

A Yes, I did. I went down at the request of Colonel 
North. This- was going to be the first meeting of all the 
Nicaraguan opposition groups, and out of this came the San Jos 
accords on March 1, and that was when Adolfo Calero, Alfonzo 
Robello, and Arturo Cruz came together and said they would mov 
forward in a united effort to bring democracy to Nicaragua. 

Q And did anyone else from the United States go 
down there? 

A Frank Gomez, IBC, International Business Communica- 
tion, and Jo4inathan Miller of the State Department were also 
there. 

Q And while down there, did you have communications 
with Colonel North? 

A Yes, I did. I kept him informed as I heard things 
so that he would be aware of it, and then when he had question 
I know that he got in touch with the 




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A Yes. There was a problem because President Monge 
decided to expel Adolfo Calero from Costa Rica before they 
could have their new conference, and that was a concern that 
that would not talte place, so you could not get the press 
coverage that everyone had hoped to come out of this. 

Q nid Colonel North relay instructions back to you 
about how to deal with situations that came up during the 
course of the conference? 

A With some things, I just kept in touch with Miller 
and Gomez and also Adolfo Calero. 

Q Let me direct your attention to March of 198 5. 
Did there come a time in March of 1985 when you provided 
money tol 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know the circumstances behind you having to 
provide him with funds? 

A It may have been in March or it might have been 
early April. I am not sure which it 




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Q And as a result of that, you provided him with 
funds? 

A On one occasion, I was in Colonel North's office 
and he provided me with Travelers Checks which he asked me 
to change into cash so that I could then turn around and pro- 
vide that to^^^^^^^^^^fas a payment. 

Q Did you see on this occasion or other occasion where 
he obtained the Travelers Checks from? 

A Yes. He pulled them out of, I believe it was the 
bottom drawer in his safe in his office. 

Q It was a safe that was actually in his office? 

A Yes, sir. 

Q And on this occasion, or on other occasions, did 
he comment to you whose safe it had been previously? 

A Yes. We had a laugh because it was the same safe 
where the thousand dollars that former National Security 
Adviser Dick Allen had kept. 

Q Do you know where Colonel North obtained the 
Travelers Checks from? 

A There was a system, my understanding is there was a 
system set up between him and Adolfo Calero and that Adolfo 
Calero would bring Travelers Checks up to him as needed. 

Q Did you ever carry Travelers Checks from Calero to 
North? 

A No, I did not, but on occasion I did tell Adolfo 



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Calero that Colonel North needed some new funding. 

Q Was anyone else involved in providing this money 
to^^^^ 

A Because there was either six or seven thousand 
dollars that had to be changed into dollars from Travelers 
Checks, he asked Jonathan Miller, who at that time was doing 
some work with him, to change part of them into Travelers 
Checks, excuse me, change part of the Travelers Checks into" 
dollars. 

Q And Jonathan Miller did that? 
A Yes, he did. 
Q Where did — 

MS. BENSON: Could I ask just one question. Whose 
name was on the Travelers Checks? 

THE WITNESS: They were always blanks and then we 
would fill in the names. In this case, we had to use our own 
names to cash them. 

MS. BENSON: So you would use Robert Owen? 
THE WITNESS: I would use Robert Owen. Unfortunate 1 
I wasn't provided with any false identification, or fortunatel 
as the case may be. 

BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Or fortunately, yes. 

And where did you provide the money to 
A I set up appointments and he came over to my 



yiLAssra 



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Q Was Jonathan Miller there? 

2 A No, he was not. 

3 Q In or about March of 1985, did you also provide 
. money tc 

- A Yes. I was asked to meet^^^^^^^^|as a matter of 
g fact, I picked him up outside the Old Executive Building, 
_ and we went for a ride and had a conversation and I did provid 

him with some cash at that time. Actually, they may have been 
Travelers Checks; I just can't remember. 

Q Do you remember the approximate amount of money 
that he provided you? 

A A couple thousand dollars. I can't remember; maybe 
3,000, 2,000. 

Q And where did you obtain the money provided you? 

A From Colonel North 

Q Did you see him on that occasion, if you recall, 
take it out of the same safe? 

A Yes, he did. I might add that he kept very careful 
records. Whenever he would take funds out, he would write it 
down so that he knew where his money was going 

Q Do you recall having a conversation with 
at the time that you provided him with the money about addi- 
tional funding that may be available? 

A Yes, it was the hope at that time — excuse me, 
that all the democratic opposition could be unite 




nMPI AQQiClFH 



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There was an effort that was being undertaken to 
try and bring all^^^^^^^^^^^^^^together under one umbrell. 
organization as had been done with the Nicaraguan opposition 
through the San Jose Accords, and I was asked to relate to 

:hat if he was willing to come together in a unity 
agreement, he would be provided with more funds to help sus- 
tain his effort. 

At this til 




lis time the 

March or April vote was coming up, and so the thought was that 
he would be cible to bring some more Members of Congress over 
to support the aid package. 

Q But in general, you indicated to him that if he were 
to join the other forces, that additional funding would be 
available to him? 
A Yes. 

Can I just interrupt? 
(Discussion off the record. ) 



KlASSIFIEn 



664 



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21 
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OlifamED 



29 




BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q In late March of 1985, did you take another trip 
to Central America? 

A Yes, I took a tr;i£^^^^^^^^^^^^|where I provided 

etween two and 

three thousand dollars in Travelers Checks, and this was to 
help his^^^^^^Hof £ ice ^^^^^^^^^H This from 
March 20 to March 24. 
Q Of 1985? 
A Of 1985, yes, sir. 

Q And again on this occasion, you obtained the • 
Travelers Checks from Colonel North's safe? 
A Yes. 

Or Colonel North obtained them from his safe? 

Yes. 

And did you provide them as cash or as Travelers 



Q 
A 
Q 

Checks? 
A 

CStecks. 

A 



I think in this case, I provided it in Travelers 



And again they would have been blank? 

They would have been blank, yes, sir. They were 
all drawn up to one or two different banks in Miami. 

And during the years of this trip, the 20th to the 
24th of March 198 5, did you have an occasion to observe a 
plane at Mr. Hull's farm? 



UNCUSSIHEO 



665 








30 



1 A Yes, I was visiting with Mr. Hull, and he got a 

2 radio call from one of his farms saying that a plane had landec 

3 there and they were trying to find another airstrip, but they 
* didn't know how to get there and so John Hull and myself and 

5 two others flew up to the airstrip. 

6 The plane was, I believe, an islander which at one 

7 time had been part of Pastora's Air Force, and it was flown by 

8 I believe, two Nicaraguans and there was also a Cuban on board 

9 and they said they were flying in fromi 

10 ^B^H^^Hanc^ that they were trying to find Rene Corvo, who 

11 had set up this delivery process. 

12 I did not look in the plane to see whether there wer< 

13 arms on it or not, and I did not really ask. They did say it 

14 was some military supplies that they were bringing in. 

15 We subsequently took off and Hull flew them to the 

16 airfield that they were supposed to go to, where the plane was 

17 then unloaded, but I did not watch the unloading or find out 

18 necessarily what was on the plane. It was serendipity that I 

19 happened to be there at the same time. 

20 Q MR. EGGLESTON: Let me have this marked RO-4 . 

(Whereupon, RO Exhibit No. 4 

was marked for identification.) 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q This is a memo to the Hammer from TC, subject, 
"Southern Front." It is a memorandum dated April 1, 198 5, and 



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it was provided to the committees prusuant to the subpoenas 
that were issued to you and provided after the immunity order 
was conveyed upon you. 

On page 2 of the document, there is a reference to 
various weapons. The document is generally about the 
Southern Front and the need to augment the Southern Front, 
and on page 2, there are references that I have now yellowed, 
references to providing weapons. 
A Yes. 

Part of this comes from a meeting that I attended 
here in Washington, D.C. It was with three or four members 
of the Southern Front, headed by a fellow by the name of 

He and his compatriots had come to Washington 
in the hopes of meeting with Colonel North. 

As the Colonel didn't want to meet with him, he 
asked me to meet with him. I did. I had met 
198 3 when I first visitedB^^H^^^Hso he did know me. 

On it was a list -- excuse me, included in the packe 
is a paper that had been put together to help start a new 
Southern Front, and this I provided to Colonel North. 
Q Also attached to this document is a list of 
munitions; is that correct? 

A Yes. This list is their current inventory that the; 
had or that they knew of. As you can see, it is not very mucf 
47-AKs, 7 FALS, and 4 M-4s and 18 SKs . 



I 



ONCUSSIFIE 



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Q And did you provide this memorandum and its attach- 
ments to Colonel North? 
A Yes, I did. 

(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Mr. Owen, did you write a memorandum following a 
trip in March of 1985 to Colonel North? 

A Yes, I wrote one dated March 26, in which I told 

him about the ^"^^^^^^^^^^^^^H 

^^l^^^lknd discussed the problem with that, and there seemed 
to be no knowledge of people^^^^^^^Habout this coming 
in, and it was being handled in a haphazard way, and it seemed 
to have been an operation being run by a Cuban by the name 
of Rene. 

Q Let me direct your attention to mid-April of 1985. 
Did you have occasion at that time to take another trip to 




A Yes, on April 13. 

Q And during the course of that trip, did you provide 

an update ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^BIH^^^H 

A It was an update of the maps. The potential 
for a Sandinista offensive to take place, Colonel North was 
concerned about that. The maps that I carried showed the 
prep locations of the Sandinista military around the border, 
where the potential offensive was going to come, and there was 



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33 




a suggestion where^^^^^^^^^^^^^^lcould move his troops. 

Q Had you obtained those maps from Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know where Oliver North had obtained the 
maps? 

A No. I suspect it was probably from the CIA. I 
gave -- when ^^^^^^^^^^1/ I gave the maps 

Q Let me direct your attention generally to April of 
1985. Do you recall providing money to^^^^^^^^^^at that 
time? 

A Yes, it was about that time he was in town, and I 
provided some funds for him for living expenses while he was 
here. 

Q Do you recall approximately how much money that was? 

A It may have just been a few hundred dollars. I 
think there was another time that I may have provided him with 
some $1,200 that he was owed. 

Q You think it was not this occasion, though, in 
April of 198 5? 

A It may have been one other time when he was up here. 
I just don't remember when. I am sorry, let me just go back. 
I said that I provided the maps to] 
is that right? 
MR. HYLDEN: You saidi 
THE WITNESS: It was 




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BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q This was a trip that you had taken tol 
A Right 

Q Again the money that you provided to 
obtained that money, I take it, from Colonel North? 
A Yes, I did. 

Q in 16 to 19 May of 1985, you again took a trip to 
is that correct? ^^^^^^^^^^^ 
At that time.^^^^^^V^as 
about some of his people. He had a number of wounded, so we 
were told, inside Nicaragua. H e wanted to get them out. Thi: 
was brought to our attention b^-*^^^^^^^^^^^^*^ ° 
representative in Washington. 

I had several meetings with Colonel North, and 
Johnathan Miller about how to set up, in essence, an evacuati 
of those people. It was decided that I would take funds down 
to buy gasoli ne. We had arr anged for a motor to be purchased 
for them down^^^^^^- They aire adjMja^ boat . 

And so I went down, met with ^^^^| Provided 
funds, and he had already been provided with an outboard moto 

for their boat. 

Q Approximately how much money did you provide to 

n this occasion? 

think between funds and goods that were purchased 
round seven to eight thousand dollars. 




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Idd ends/#l ,^ 

md fls/#la .. 

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Q Do you recall in what form you provided him with 
the money? 

A I believe it was in Travelers Checks, and he was 
rather upset because it was difficult for him to cash Travelers 
Checks i 

Q Again, you obtained the Travelers Checks from 
Colonel North? 

A Right. 

Q Let me show you what I would like to have marked 
RO-5. 

(Whereupon, RO Exhibit No. 5 
was marked for identification.) 



yNCUSSIHED 



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BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Let me show what has been marked as RO-5 and ask you 
whether this two-page document or three-page document, first 
is page 1, in your handwriting, and secondly, what is the 
document that is attached to it? 

A It is my handwriting. It is a list fromj 
land his peoole as far as what they needed, what they 
felt they needed to supply their men with arms and uniforms. 

Pages 2 and 3 is the list, runs everything from 
boats to munitions to mortars to boots and uniforms. 
And you got this list fromi 

A Yes. At the time, we were trying to develop a way 
that we could supply his people. The t hought was that it woulc 
be easier to supply his peopl< 
because the travel time! 

there was a problem that exisi 





Q What did you do with the list? 

A I gave it to Colonel North. 

Q And did you discuss it with Colonel North? 

A I believe I would have gone over it, yes. 

What was your understanding that Colonel North would 
do with a list like this? 

A Colonel North was in essence at times the quarter- 
master for the effort, and when various equipment was needed, 



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it would usually be discussed with him or asked how he could 
supply the assistance. 

Q And it was then North, it was your understanding that 
North would figure out a wav to provide the weapons? j 

A Yes. In this case, I don't think we ever did, 
were able to provide them. 

Q Do you know a man by the name of 

A Y6 




Did you, in the spring of 1985, provide money to 



A Yes. At some point, I believe it may have been in 
April, I got a call from Colonel North to come over to his 
office, where he then provided me an envelope which had funds 
which he wanted me to pass on to^^^^^^^^^^^H^ who was 
in town. 

Q Did you do so? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q On this occasion you provided it, you obtained 
cash from Colonel North? 

A I believe it may have been a combination of cash 
and traveler's checks. 

Q Did you cash the traveler's checks? 

A No. 

Q So, whatever Colonel North gave you is what you 



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provided tc 

A That is right. 

Q And where did you give the money to? 

A It was on a rainy evening, and I stood outside 
17th Street, across from the Old Executive Office Building. 
A car pulled up, and the window was rolled down, and I say 
it was^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand provided him with the funds. 

Q Did you have any conversation with him? 

A No. There was another American who was with him, whc 
I recognized and just said hello to. 

Q Let me direct your attention to early June of 1985. 
In early June, did you have occasion to have conversations wit! 
General Singlaub? 

A Yes, I did. I flew from Washington to Denver and 
I drove up to his home in Tabernash. He asked me to come out 
for a series of meetings he was having, and at that time also, 
he was putting the final touches on the purchase of a large 
quantity of arms for the FDN. 

Q And on whose instructions did you fly to Denver? 

A It was a combination, in talking with General 
Singlaub and also talking with Colonel North. 

Q What was your understanding about what you were goin< 
to do in the meeting with General Singlaub? 

A It was to sit in on the meeting he was having with 
several people who were coming to see him, and then also assis 



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him in any way that I might be able to. 

Q And the assistance you were providing was with regard 
to an arms transaction? 

A It turned out that he had to get some finalized 
figures from Adolfo Calero. At the time, Adolfo Calero was 
giving a speech in San Francisco, the next day, so I flew to 
San Francisco and had a meeting with Adolfo. 

Q Who were the other people that General Singlaub was 
meeting with in his home? 

A He was meeting with Colonel Bob Brown of Soldier 
of Fortune Magazine, and several of his compatriots. I know 
some of the names and some I don't remember now. Do you want 
the rest of them? 

Q No, that is okay. Did you then fly to San Francisco 
and meet with Mr. Calero? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q And the purpose of that trip was to discuss? 

A To go over the final quantities of arms that were 
going to be purchased through General Singlaub. 

Q Did you take a list with you? 

A I did take a list, yes, sir. 

Q And did you, in fact, meet with Calero and go over 
the list? 

A Yes. He was in a rush. He and I ended up sitting 
in the back seat of a car that was driven by, I believe, Richar 



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Ainsworth and someone else was in the front seat. I had a yelljc 
legal pad with a listing of all the munitions that were going 
to be Durchased on it, and we went through it one by one to 
see if those were the correct quantities that he wanted. 

Q And during the course of driving around in a car, 
did you have occasion to call Colonel North? 

A Yes, we stopped by a pay phone, and I had talked with 
Colonel North earlier in the day and he asked me to be sure 
to have Adolf o call him. I got out, placed the phone call, 
talked to him a few minutes, gave the phone to Adolf o and 
then they had a conversation. 

Q Did you call him at the OEOB? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you hear Calero's half of the conversation? 

A He was talking about, I believe he was talking about 
some new purchases that he needed and some funding. 

Q New purchases of what? 

A Possibly some arms. I am not sure that he mentioned 
the terra arms over the phone. We had always tried to talk 
somewhat in codes, so whoever was listening wouldn't quite 
be able to understand it, but if they had any common sense, 
they probably could. 

Q But it was your understanding the conversation was 

about an arms requirement? 

A Parly. There were other things that were discussed. 
A 



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Q After the meeting with Calero and going over the 
list, you then communicated with General Singlaub? 

A Yes, I did. I provided him with the final list 
of what it was that Adolf o wanted. We had a code worked out 
that we could do over the phone. 

Q Do you recall the approximate total value of this 
shipment, of this amount of arms? 

A Somewhere between 5 and $5.5 million. 

C And just generally and quickly, do you remember what 
was called for? 

^^^^^^Hak-47s .^^^^^^^^Brounds of ammunition, 
I think^^^^^^^^renades . One of the questions that General 
Singlaub had was about the purchase of some SA-7s. He believed 
he had a good deal on them. Adolfo felt it would be too 
expensive, and also at this time, he was trying to get the 
British Blowpipe. 

Q Did you receive a gift, or was a gift received 
during the course of this trip? 

A I brought a gift to Adolfo Calero from Jack Singlaub. 
It was a Brazilian hand grenade which had been hollowed out, 
and a Zippo lighter had been put in it. 

One of the scary things was that I walked through 
the Denver Airport and I never set off the alarm. 

Q After returning to Washington in early June, after 
this transaction involving General Singlaub, did you discuss 



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the deal with Colonel North? 

A Yes, I went in and had a meeting with him and went 
over the list. As a matter of fact, I provided him the same 
list that I had gone over with Adolf o Calero. 

Q And so, it was a list that totaled about $5.2 
million, or between $5 and $5.5 million? 

A Right, and a discussion took place about the SA-7s 
and the British Blowpipes and so forth. 

Q What was the discussion about the SA-7s and the 
British Blowpipes? 

A At the time. Colonel North was trying to get some 
blowpipes, or had potential access to getting some SA-7s 
that I thought he might be able to get at a less expensive 
cost. 

Q In mid-June, about June 8 of 1985, did you fly to 
Miami with Colonel North? 

A No, I flew down the day before. I was asked to go 
down and rent several rooms at the hotel at the airport of 
Miami International. He was coming down for a meeting with 
Adolfo Calero, Alfonso Robello and Arturo Cruz, and I was 
asked to set up for that meeting, and he flew in on Saturday 
night around 12:30 p.m. — or a.m., excuse me, and then 
I put him on a flight that left towards Atlanta at 5:00 a.m. 

Q And did a meeting take £lfce_with Colonel North and 
others? 



meeting take place with 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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A Yes. There was Colonel North was there, along 
with Alfonso Robello, Arturo Cruz and Adolfo Calero and 
Jonathan Miller was also in attendance with me. 

Q And what was the purpose of the meeting? What was 
discussed? 

A The meeting was to go forward in discussing the 
unity amongst all the groups, in setting up UNO. 
(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q During the course of this trip, did you provide 
any money to any contras? 

A I ended up staying several days longer in Miami, 
where I had a series of meetings with various representatives 
of the Indian factions. At the time, we were trying to 
encourage a unity meeting amongst the Indians in Miami, where 
they would get together and discuss a program, to pu t together . T 
an assembly, either^^^^^^^^^^or the| 
border, where they would elect a new leadership, and I did 
have some funds that I provided to^^^^^^^^^Bfor living 
expenses . 

Q And how much money was that? 

A $2500 to $3,000, somewhere along there, I think. 

Q And where did you obtain that money? 

A From Colonel North. 

Q And in what form did you provide the money to; 



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A Traveler's checks. 

Q Did you provide it in traveler's checks? 

A I believe so, yes. It was also either at that time 
or before that, I had a meeting with^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand one 
of the othej^^^^|^n.eaders , and I placed a call ^°^^^^^^^^| 
^^^Hto ^^^^^^^^^^^^Hto try them on terms, 
and try to have^^^^^^^^attend this meeting, and he 
subsequently did come up to Miami for the meetings. 

If I may add, I may have taken a day trip down 
later the next week to provide more funds. I don't remember, 
but I don't think^^^^^^^^had come at that time, and I 
ended up going down to provide some money for^^^^^^^^^^H 

Q Providing money to^^^^^^^Hin a separate trip. 

A Right, or money to^^^^^^Hplus to some of the 
others, an additional fund, but we were in essence trying 
to support them while they were here going through their 
meetings. 

Q Let me direct your attention to late August of 1985. 
Did you travel to Costa Rica at that time? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q And what was the purpose of traveling to Costa Rica 
in late August? 

A I was asked to go down o n beh alf of Colonel North 
to meet withi 




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discuss the establishment of an airfield that could be used 
to resupply the democratic resistance. 

Q And Colonel North asked you to take the trip? 

A Yes, he did. 

Q And who in Costa Rica did you discuss this with? 

A I was met by cne^^^Kt the airport, and I 
subsequently had some meetings with him, and then I also had 
a meeting, I believe, with Ambassador Tambs , and the 
and I met with 

Q And the purpose was to discuss where to obtain, where 
to place the air strip? 

A Yes, it was. There were two openings at the time, 
and they had pretty much settledon one, and we discussed this 
w i t h^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K r r a n g e d 
fly out the next morning by helicopter to do a survey of the 
site. 

Q And did you? 

A Yes, I did, and I took pictures and brought them back, 

Q Was there discussion about using offshore accounts ana 
companies in order to establish the airfield? 

A Yes, we discussed what kind of cover operation could 
be established, so that we would not draw too much attention. 
The thought was to set up a Panamanian company if one didn't 
already exist, and have the property either purchased or 
rented by several Americans who would be establishing either an 



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agricultural testing center or for some other means to use it 

as a cover. 

Q And did you discuss this concept with Colonel North: 
A Upon my return, I provided the pictures and providec 

a memo to the Colonel on the establishment of the airfield. 
Q And that is the memorandum that you provided to us 

that is dated .;.ugust 25, 1985? 
A Yes. 

Q Did you have any further dealings with this airfield 
A I had some, but a decision was made at that time to 

take me off the account. NHAO was about the be formed, and 

the thought was that it would be best to have me become 




Q Let me direct your attention to late August or earl^ 
September of 1985. Did you have a conversation with Colonel 
North abou^^^^^^Bat that time? 

A There had been a series of discussions going on for 
quite a while about trying to raise money f rom^^^^^Bcountrie 
I was asked to come in and see him, and asked to pay a visit 



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Q And were you given anything to take with you? 

A Yes, I was given an envelope which had a foreign 
bank account number on it. 

Q Do you know where the bank account was? 

A I believe it was Switzerland. 

Q And you know this not because you saw it in the 
envelope, but because Colonel North told you what was in the 
envelope? 

A Right. 

Q And did you, in fact, give it to the representative 
of^^^" 

A Yes, I did. I had a meeting with him, and provided 
him with that envelope, and thanked him very much for whatever 
he could do to help. 

Q Who was the individual? 

A It 

Q 

A 

Q Did you have a conversation with the representative? 

A Yes, it was a brief conversation. We talked about 
what was in the envelope, and the need for it, and also how 
much it was appreciated. I believe in the conversation, he die 





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say that he had several conversations with Colonel North, and 
also Gaston Sigur may have come up. 

Q Was the conversation about the contras? 

A It was in essence, and it was also talking about 
their need and how our government certainly would appreciate 
whatev^er assistance they could provide. 

Q What other — 

A I will add that when I did go, I did say that I was 
not a formal representative of the United States Government, 
that I was a private individual. 

Q What other^^^^^^^^^w:ountries were mentioned as 
being possible sources of funds for the contras? 

A 

Q Any others that you recall? 

A No. Subsequently, I heard ^^^^^^^Hwas one, too. 

Q These are in conversations that you had with Colonel 
North, I take it, where other countries were mentioned? 

A Yes. Also, General Singlaub had been actively 
trying to solicit assistance. 

Q Let me direct your attention to September and Octobe 
of 1985. It is my understanding from prior conversations with 
you that you took three trips to New York in or about that 
time in order to obtain money. 

Could you just very briefly describe each of those 
three trips, on whose instructions you took the trip, and the 




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logistics for the trip? 

A Again, I had several conversations with Oliver North. 
One time, I was called in and asked to go to New York to pick 
up a packet from him. He put me on the phone with Mr. Copp. 

Q C-o-p-p? 

A C-o-p-p. Who I knew was General Secord, and he 
gave me instructions. I few to New York. I then called Copp 
to get the final instructions, and on two occasions, I went to 
a bank, and was given a name of a person to go see, and then I 
was handed an envelope. Once I did see them, I said who I was 
from. 

Q When you said where you were from — 

A I believe I said you are expecting me, I am from 
Mr. Copp. I believe I used Mr. Copp's name. 

Q And on another occasion, you obtained money not from 
a bank, but from another place? 

A No, on Rosh Hashanah, which I believe was September 
16th, 1985, it was a bank holiday in New York. I flew to 
New York, again talked with General Secord. He gave me the 
address of a corner Chinese deli on the West Side, the Lower 
West Side of New York, a Chinese vegetable stand, and I went to 



BY MS. BENSON: 



ytJciftSSiFe 



Q You said Lower West Side? 

A Yes. I went to the location. I had been given a 



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name. I asked for the person, and I told them that I had been 
given a name to use by General Secord, and I gave him that 
name. It was not Secord. It was something like Manny, but I 
really can't remember. 

The individual then went behind the counter and 
unrolled his pant leg, I believe, and pulled out a wad of 
$100 bills and then asked me if I wanted to count them. I 
subsequently did, and there were 95 $100 bills. 

I then flew back to Washington, went to the Sheraton 
Carlton Hotel, where I was to meet General Secord. I saw 
him in the bar. I went downstairs and used the house phone, 
called the bar, told him I was there; he came out, met me in 
the lobby, and I handed him the money rolled in a newspaper. 

Then I did say, well, I think he must have taken his 
5 percent. I commented that there was $9500 there. I thought 
I would provide an even 10,000, but he said through the 
currency restrictions, he didn't want the money to be $10,000 
or higher, so that is why it was $9500. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q Mr. Owen, in October of 1984, you had become employed 
as a consultant to NHAO; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And did you become employed as a consultant through 
the foundation that you had set up? 

A Through an organization called the Institute for 



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Democracy, Education and Assistance. It was founded in 
January 1985 as a nonprofit 501(c)(3). 

Q Mr. Owen, in late November of 1985, did you ta)ce a 
trip down^^^^^^^^^H, did you not, with regard to a humanitari 
^^^^^^^^ 

A In November — 

Q Of 1985? ^^^^^^^^ 

A Of 1985, November 13, I flew down^^^^^^^^^fto do 
a survey of the needs and how things were going. Money had 
started to flow at the time, so I met with a number of the 
FDN, also with^^^^^^^^^^^^^nd with| 





Q I am not going to ask you any more details about thai 
trip, although you have provided them to us in prior meetings 
that we have had. Let me direct your attention to the 
trip that you took in January of 1986, the 11th to the 18th. 
I understand that at that time, you took a trip from New 
Orleans actually down ^'^'^^^^^^^^^B ^^ that correct? 

A Yes. I had met with Colonel North, and he asked me 
to accompany a flight that was going down to^^^^^^H. At 
the time, though, I was working for NHAO. I still let him knc 
what I was doing, and did some work at his request, so I had 
to walk a very fine line with NHAO, and Ambassador Dooling, bi. 
I did fly to New Orleans, and then drove over to Gulf port, 
Mississippi, where I met with some representatives of the Nav 



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who were providing the Butler Buildings, and then on SAT, 
Southern Air Transport, L-lOO came in to the air strip there. 
We lo aded on the Butler Buildings and we flew to 

where the buildings were unloade 
and they were to be used to store at that time potentially 
NHAO goods, because^^^^^^^fhad shut off flights, and we had 
a backlog of material that had to get down there. 

Q You take then an additional series of flights or 
trips down to Central America in the winter and spring of 1986. 
A Yes. 

Q And let me just ask you on one occasion, you became 
involved with one particular flight that had a series of meetin 
— or with you and Chi Chi and Colonel Steele. Could you 
relate when that took place, and information about that 
particular flight? 

A I met with Colonel North, I believe, sometime around 
the 23rd of March, and during this time, we were continuing 
to try and find ways to supply the southern front with arms 
inside Nicaragua, either through air drop or any other means. 

A SAT flight was going down from Dulles to Miami, 
and then on to^^^^^^^f I went up to Dulles , picked up the 
SAT flight. On board was a representative of Dick Gadd and 
myself, and flew to Miami. 

Where there, we tried to, the pilots tried to get 
equipment that could be used for an air drop. The idea was 



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that medical goods would be unloaded atl 

LArms would then be loaded up. The flight would fly 
to^^^^^^^B where the arms would be packaged for a drop, and 
then the following night, it would be dropped to the forces 
in the south. 

In^^^^^^H, we were greeted by Rcunon Medina and 
Chi Chi Rodriguez. 

Q Chi Chi Contero?^ 

A Chi Chi Contero and Felix Rodriguez. The arms had 
not been released at^^^^^^^Bwhen we arrived. I went and 
asked^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bif he 
and asked them if they were released, and if there was some 
follow-up, because I had been assured by Colonel North that 
they would be there waiting for us to load. 

He did, and the reply came back that the FDN hadnot 
released the arms. 

BY MR. SMILJANICH: 
Was that^^^^^^^^^ 
A You mean ^^^^^^^^^B ^^ ^^^ neither one. It was 
one of their representatives. He did a coded call into the 
and they tracked down, I believe they tracked down 

)ing to move had already come 
ind they were 
supposed to have been moved over tc^^^^^^^^Hby this time, 
and to be loaded up, or the FDN was going to provide some of 




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the arms and munitions. This did not take place. We were in 
Several calls were made to Colonel North, also by 
Steele^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hand a call 
to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H^o the drop when 
things didn't work out. 

We went through a series of meetings to try and come 
up with a way to get the arms. Finally, it was decided 
to scrub the mission. They went back to Florida, and I went 
down t ^^ 

BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Mr. Owen, you had other trips which you took to 
Central America throughout the summer of 1986. 
A Until June of 1986. 
Q Until June of 1986? 

A Right. My last trip for NHAO, I came back on May 30 
Q And let me just direct your attention and just cover 
some things in a summary fashion. 

Obviously, these are areas that you have substantial 
additional information about, and you have provided that to 
us, but almost by my summary, you previously told us that you 
had conversations with Colonel North about the CIA purchasing 
the private material that had been used for the private supply 
operations, is that correct? You had previously told us about 
that. 

A Yes. He had hoped that the agency would pick up the 



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private network that had been set up and use that. 

Q Those conversations you had with Colonel North were 
in the suiraner of 1986? 

A Summer or early fall, and he was rather upset because 
the agency didn't want to touch any of it. They felt it was 
tainted, and the people were already exposed, and so they did 
not want to have anything to do with it. 

Q You have also told us that a meeting took place betwe^r 
you, at least one, in or about September of 1986 with General 
Secord, where he told you a number of things. 

One of the things that he told you about was the 
decision in 1985 to remove Calero from control of the funding, 
and that the funding control was put in the hands of Secord 
and Colonel North; is that correct? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q And did he also tell you about a meeting that had 
taken place between himself and Director Casey? 

A It was either at that meeting or another meeting 
he talked about it, at least one if not several meetings he had 
with Director Casey. 

Q During the course of the meeting between Secord and 
Director Casey, Secord had discussed with Director Casey the 
situation in Nicaragua, and also the purchasing of the assets 
of the airfield; is that correct? 

A I believe so. I am not sure. 



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Q You were relating to us in any event? 

A Right. 

Q What Secord told you about the meeting. 

A Right, and it may have been -- yes. 
BY MS. BENSON: 

Q Yes? 

A Yes, as well as I can remember. There were things 
we needed to discuss, I talked at at least one meeting with 
Director Casey about the effort. 

Q Do you recall General Secord saying that he had 
spoken with Director Casey about the CIA purchasing the 
air strip and the other assets connected with the air supply 
operation? 

A I believe so. I can't be 100 percent positive, but 
I believe so. 

BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q It is your best recollection that in the meeting 
that you had with General Secord, General Secord had told you 
about this meeting with Casey, and you think that is one of the 
things? 

A It was either in this meeting or a meeting I had with 
General Secord in Colonel North's office. 

Q And when would that have been in relation to this? 



Sometime in late 1986 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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BY MR. LEON: 

Q Who was at that meeting? 

A Secord, Ollie and myself. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

Q Mr. Owen, let me ask you in the spring of 1985, 
at the time that you were providing the money to the various 
contra leaders, did you and Colonel North joke about who was 
going to jail first? 

A Yes, we would joke about that. 

Q And did you also joke with Jonathan Miller about that|? 

A Yes, we did. He thought we should bone up on our 
chess games so that we could play between the bars. 

Q And was this because of the sort of generally 
fertive and unseemly nature of distributing money on rainy 
street corners outside the OEO Building? 

A I would say that mightbe an appropriate statement. 

Q Was there any specific discussion of the Boland 
amendment and whether or not you were violating the Boland 
amendment? 

A It was very questionable. I think everyone knew we 
were walking a very fine line. 

Q But nevertheless, you joked that you might have 
gone over the line and might end up in jail? 

A Yes. 

Q Let me ask you, did Colonel North tell you whether or 



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not the President of the United States knew what Colonel 
North was up to in Central America? 

A He did not say it in those words. He did say, 
I once asked him about the memos that I provided to him, and 
he said they went across the street to those above him. He 
did say, don't worry, what you are doing, you are doing it for 
— is what the President wants done, and it is for God and 
Country. 

Q You knew at that time that the President was meeting 
with various private fund-raisers; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q And you knew that the meetings he was having with 
the fund-raisers was with regard to raising money for the 
contras? 

A Yes. 

Q And that that money was being funnelled into Colonel 

North? 

A I knew that funds were being pulled together. I 
didn't know where it was all being funnelled. Are you speaking 
about one particular group, one particular fund-raising group? 

Q I wasn't speaking about one group in particular, 
actually. What I was really asking about is just whether or 
not you had any conversations with Colonel North about whether 
or not the President knew about where the money was going to 
go, and the purpose for which the money was going to be raised. 



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A Actually, those conversations didn't really take 
place between me and Colonel North. 

Did Colonel North tell you, as he has told others, 
that the President knew what he was doing with regard to 
maintaining the operation in Central America? 

A I got that impression, yes. 

Q Did he say things to you that led you to conclude 
that the President knew? 

A He said, what you are doing you are doing for — I 
can't exactly remember what the words were, and I don't want 
to put words into his mouth, but it was in essence, the fact 
that what we were doing was for this President and for this 
Administration. 

Q But knowing Ollie, you didn't have any reason to 
think that he was doing it completely on his own? 

A No. I once had a conversation with him, as a matter 
of fact, the day that all of this broke, and his comment 
was, "You know, I would never do anything unless I was ordered 
or I was under order to do it. I would not do anything on 
my own . " 

MR. EGGLESTON: Thank you very much. 
MR. GREENEBAUM: I only want to ask you one thing. 
Near the end, you started to give what appeared to be a menu 
of things that this witness has discussed with you, and I would 
only want the record to reflect that you discussed many things 



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which were not in that menu. I don't think you meant it to be 
all-inclusive. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Mr. Greenebaum has just indicated 
to me that I had listed various things, in quickly going througlh 
the end of the deposition, the various things that Mr. Owen 
has told us about. That list was net intended to be exclusive 
in any fashion. 

He has also told us about a number of things that 
occurred in the sununer of 1984 to 1986. 

THE WITNESS: I would just like to add that on severa 
occasions, Colonel North did tell me that he would be the 
fall guy if things went bad. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Thank you. 



\!Ha^ssro 



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(The deposition was moved to room 2261 Rayburn House 
Office Building) . 

Mr. LEON: Back on the record. 

We have taken a briefing break and 
relocated our offices. 

Just to introduce myself for the record, 
my name is Richard Leon, the Deputy Chief Minority Counsel, 
for the House Committee , and with me is Terry Smiljanich, 
Counsel for the Senate Committee. 
BY MR. LEON: 
Q I would like to pick up a few areas, Mr. Owen, 
that you previously discussed with Mr. Eggelston, and go over 
those with you. 

First of all, with respect to the discussion that 
came up regarding Ambassador Duemling, and the fine line you 
were walking, I think you were talking about your involvement 
in the Suiter Building? 
A Right. 

Q Being located intc 
A Ir ^^^ 

Q ^^^^^^^^Bexcuse me. Would you elaborate a little 
bit with respect to your comment about you were walking a 
fine line there? 

A It was Oliver North's suggestion that I apply for 
job at NAHO. When I first went to meet Ambassador Duemling 
he didn't see that there would be a place for me. I think 




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that he probably in the beginning, felt that he was pressured 
to hire me by Oliver North and possibly others. I think in 
the beginning also, he therefore, was very wary of me and what 
I was doing. He looked upon me perhaps as Oliver North's man 
in the inside who could keep him informed as to what was 
going on. 

Again, in tne very beginning he wasn't quite sure 
what it was that I was going to do, and he may have felt he 
was saddled with me, but he eventually — we ended up having 
a very good working relationship, at least I think so, and I 
tried to keep him as best informed as I could. 

There was always some question as to who I really 
worked for. During a GAO investigation, they asked me do 
you work for, you know, or do vou work for Oliver North, or 
do you work for NAHO. And I said, I am paid by the State 
Department. I contract to them, but the pNO people 
are the ones I am supposed to be responsible to. So, in 
essence I was sort of working for three different groups — 
NAHO, Oliver North, and UNO. 

Q Did you have any reason to believe that the funds 
that were paying your salary came from UNO? 

A No, I knew that they were U.S. Government funds 
from the State Department, part of the $27 million grant. 

Q Now, with respect to the Butler Building, when you 
said you were walking a fine line, did you consider your 



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conduct at that time to be potentially in violation of the 
Boland amendment? 

A No, as a matter of fact, the reason I said that 
about walking a fine line with the Butler Building is because 
I knew about it before Ambassador Duemling talked to me about 
it, so that is he-'. I mean, everyone was sort of playing 
bames, and Colonel North didn't want Ambassador Duemling to 
get upset with me, so we sort of had to finesse a number of 
things. 

Q But you didn't consider your conduct in assisting 
with those buildings, to be potentially in violation of any 
law, and in particular, the Boland amendment? 

A No. Specifically because the decision to move the 
Butler Building down there was predicated on the fact that 





Icould be a staging point for air drops to the FDN anc 
potentially the troops in the south, and it would be able to 
provide a way station. Obviously, the thought was humanitaria 
goods could be used for it, but subsequently, they were used 
for arms as well. 

Q At another point in your testimony earlier, you 
were talking about conversations that you had with Colonel 
North and Mr. Secord with respect to the resupply operation, 
and certain of its assets -- in particularly airplanes and 
the airstrip. Do you recall that; 



IINCIASSIFIEC 



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64 

1 A Yes, 

2 Q With regard to that, I would like to see if I 

3 could clarify something for the record. Was it your impressior 

4 that Colonel North, in 1986, believed that those assets, the 

5 airplanes and the airstrip, were things that were going to be 

6 sold to the CIA, or just given to the CIA? 

7 ' A It was my impression that they probably were going 

8 to be given. General Singlaub — 
g Q Singlaub or Secord? 

JO A No, I am changing. Singlaub is another individual 
If who I had a number of dealings with and the General on one 
12 occasion, hoped that he would be able to sell his assets, 
j2 or at least get reimbursed at cost, so he could then go use 
those funds for other efforts that he was involved with, but 
he was told that that was not oging to be the case, that he 
would have to give them over, and even by his givingthem, 
there was some question whether the CIA would make use of 
them. 

Q Was it your impression that General Secord believed 
that those assets were owned by the Contras or by Udall or 
some others? 



A We never really discussed that, but during several 
22 



conversations the thought was that in essence they wanted — 
my impression was they wanted to give them to the agency or 
have them pick up — 



UNCUSSIRES 



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Q Who is they? 

A Ollie — Colonel North, General Secord. At least 
they wanted to have the agency pick up the tab for the cost 
of fuel, the planes and the pilots, and the network that had 
been put together, so that it wouldn't have to come out of 
funds that may not exist any longer, or may have run out by 
then. 

Q When you say the planes, do you mean the CIA would 
purchase the planes? 

A That, I don't know. I can't comment on that. 

Q Can you comment as to whether it was your 
impression that there was any disagreement between North and 
Secord as to what should be done with those planes? 

A I don't know. 

Q Did you sense any? 

A No. The only sense 1 had was that Ollie wanted 
the equipment to be used, seeing as they were already in place 
and felt there was an ongoing operation. 

Q You have mentioned in your prior testimony 

Did you have any personal meetings or discussions 

with ^^^^^ 

A I never had any personal meetings withl 
but on numerous occasions when I would be in Ollie North's 
office, he would pick up the phone and call 

Q Were you aware that^^^^^^^^tfwas a member of the 





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66 

RIG organization? 

A Yes, I was. I knew that in essence that the RIG 
was Oliver North, Elliott Abrams, andl 

Q Did you ever have any personal meetings or 
discussions with Elliott Abrams? 

A No, I did not. 

Q With respect to^^^^^^^^^fdid North comment to 
you from time to time oi^^^^^^^^^l involvement in this? 

A No. The only conversations would be when he had 
phone calls with him while I was in the office, but we did 
not discuss his intimate knowledge or working relationship, 
although I was under the impression that everything Oliver 
North did, and I will add here most eveyrthing that] 
I d i d , ^^^^^^^^H knew 

Q That is more specifically what I wanted to get to. 
You dealt with^^^^^^^^^^^Hextensively? 

A Yes. 

Q Was it your impression that his acts with respect 
to this program, were done with the knowledge and consent of 



A I believe that they were at least done with his 
knowledge. I don't know whether^^^^^^^^^consented to it. 
I think one of the things that should be kept in mind is that 
the between^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^fts 

[there was an ongoing military effort and a structure 




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that existed. There was no real structure in the south, and 
it was an effort undertaken by a number of people, including 

land myself, and others, to try and develop 
the structure so that there would be something to use in the 
south for a second front against the Sandinista military. 

Q Did you ever get the impression fromi 
that he was acting either outside the knowledge of| 
or against the orders oi 

A No. I knew from conversations that there was some, 
potentially some animosity betweer 

but I did not get the impression that he was -- let me j us t 
backtrack and say that the operation was small enough so that 

cnew what was going on. I am constrained that he 
knew what was going on. 

Q Did Ollie North ever give you the impression in 
either anything he said or anything he did, that he was askinc 
to do something, anything, without the knowledge 





A No, I did not get tha t idea. But in April I did 
take an encryption device down to^^^^^^^^^^Hso that he 
could have his own -- 

Q April of what year? 

A April of 1986 — his own secure communications 
link directly with Oliver North so that he wouldn't have 
to run to the secure line everytime they talked. 



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Q The secure line at the Embassy? 

A At the Embassy and at Ollie's office, yes. 

Q [)o you know whether or not^^^^Hwas aware of that? 

A That, I do not know. 

Q Oo you know if^^^^Hhad a similar such device? 

A That, I do not. My guess is no, because Ollie 
just picked up the secure line and called him. 

Q With respect to Ambassador Tambs , did you deal 

with im directly? 

t 

A I first me Ambassador Tambs in Oliver North'^s 

office before he went down to Costa Rica to assume the 
Ambassadorship. Ollie introduced me as one of his people that 
would be traveling frequently down there. The Ambassador said 
any time youare down, please stop in and see me. So, on 
most of my trips down there, I did go in and vis it him. 
Sometimes I would be alone, but most of the time^^^^^^Bwoulc 
joint us. 

Q Was it your impression that Ambassador Tambs was 
communicating with Elliott Abrams with regard to his conduct 
down there? 

A I don't know that. 

Q You don' t know? 

A I would imagine, but I don't know that for sure. 

Q Did you have any reason to think that Eliott 
Abrams was unaware of Mr. Tamb's conduct? 



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UNfflflO 



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A No. 



Q With respect to Colonel Steele, did you deal with 
Colonel Steele? 

A The first time I met Colonel Steele was with the 
MIL Group commanderj 




I then saw him again in March, at the time we had 
gone down there and were trying to put together the first drop 
to the forces in the south. 

Q In March of ' 86? 

A March of '86, yes. He was in on several meetings 
Ihad with Chichi Cotero and Felix Rodriguez. 

Q You only dealt with him twice? 

A Yes, I believe that I was only ^"^^^^^H ^^^n*^ 
three times or four times. 

Q How about Mr. Gadd? Did you have many dealings 
with him? 

A I had a couple of lunches and maybe three or four 
times we had lunch together. I think I was introduced by 
phone to him as Mr. East, and Colonel North had aked me to get 
in contact with Mario Calero, and to encourage Mario Calero 
to talk to Mr. East and also to set up a meeting so that Mr. 
East would be the person they would turn to when flights 



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WVWJl 



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started up again, he would be the contact officer for moving 
the goods, and I also mentioned it to the NAHO people that he 
would probably be a good person to use. Subsequently, I 
learned his name was Gadd. 

Q And Robert Dutton, dod you deal with him? 

A Never met him. 

Q Never met him? 

A I don't believe so, no. I don't believe I ever met 
him. 

Q How about Max Gomez? 

A I had met Max initially in March of 1985. I was 
introduced to him as someone who could do a number of good 
things down south. I belive that it was at that time he was 
trying to decide whether to go to work with the FDN or go to 
work in Salvador, and we discussed some of the thing that he 
would be able to do for the FDN^^^^^^^Hand try to 
up various programs that were necessary. 

I talked to Colonel North about him, and he said 
yes, but he thought he was going to Salvador. I then met him 
in March when I was down there, and then again in April^^^^H 




Q Were you aware of any conflict between Max and with 
the Secord operation with respect to the use of planes and 
the distribution of t^c^s^e^ planes , those assets to the CIA in 
the future? 




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Ul^^fiED 



71 



A No. The biggest conflict that I knew was, one, 
there was a meeting in August of 1986. 

Q Exactly. 

A When Colonel North was out of town, but I believe 
his deputy, Robert Earl sat in on it. Colonel North was 
upset at the meeting, was upset about the meeting because he 
felt that — 

Q Is that a meeting with Donald Gregg? 

A Yes. At the time, I only knew there was a meeting 
that took place st the White House, where they had a variety 
of representatives — I believe some from the Agency, from the 
NSC, the Vice President's office. 

Q Let me back up. Were you aware there were two 
meetings — one on August 8 between Donald Gregg, Felix, 
Robert Earl, and then one on August 12, with representatives 
the Ambassador Corps, Colonel Steele, and others? 

A I knew that there was at least one, if not two 
meetings had taken place, so I wasn't familiar with the dates. 
I do know that at least one of them there were representatives 
from State and the Agency that were there, and Colonel North 
was upset. He felt that Felix had been maligning the effort, 
and also there were I believe conversations that took place 
about what is going to happen once the military funding was 
released by Congress. 

Q Did Colonel North relay to you that there was a 



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disagreement as to who owned the assets and whether or not 
they should be given to the CIA or sold to the CIA? 
A No, that did not come up. 

Q Were you aware that Colonel North had a meeting 
with Dutton and Felix Rodriguez in June of '86 in which he 
castigated allegedly Felix Rodriguez? 

A I knew that there was a meeting when Colonel North 
had flown down ^°^|^H| a nd met with F elix and met with 
Colonel Steele, and I believe^^^^^Waccompanied him 
on that meeting, and they had talked about the assets and what 
was going on. I knew that there were always problems with it. 
There were concerns of mismanagement, there were concerns of 
funds not getting through on time. There were concerns of 
the quality of equipment and the lack of coordination. 

Q Did you discuss with Colonel North the possibility 
that the contras were being ripped off, defrauded by Secord 
and other people working down there with Secord? 

A In March of 1986 I made a memo to Colonel North in 
which I discussed some concerns that people had about the 
possibility that General Secord was making large profits out 

of this. 

Q This is concerns of who? 

A Concerns on the street that I had heard from a 
variety of sources, and also at one time, I am not sure it was 
at this point or another point, Adolpho Calero had made 



im mm. 



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73 

mention of it, and at this time in the memo, I put in Tom 
Clines and several others. 

Q Did you see any evidence to indicate that Secord 
was doing such a thing? 

A Was making money off it? No. 

Q Have you ever seen such efforts? 

A No. 

Q Have you ever seen any direct involvement by Tom 
Clines in any of these activities, or Secord or his other 
people? 

A No. I just knew that he was involved. 

Q Do you know if the name Clines and the defrauding 
of the contras came up in the context of the meeting with 
Donald Gregg in August of '86? 

A I don't know that for a fact. I heard a rumor that 
there was some concern about money being ripped off. I know 
Felix Rodriguez had a concern that people were making money 
off of this effort. 

Q Did Colonel North give you his assessment of whethe 
such things were happening, in his opinion? 

A I believe it was in that March meeting, where I 
talked to Colonel North about it, emd he said "I don't believe 
that Secord is making money off of this." 

I believe on one other occasions, when I talked, 
he talked about Secord using his own money to set up a variety 



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of proprietaries that were being used. At that same meeting 
in March I brought up Peter Maas' book, where the list of 




concern eas voiced byl 
It may not have been that meeting, it may have been a 
subsequent meeting, but also the fact that there were 
allegations that monies were being )^de and that the contras 
were being ripped off. 

Let me just add that also in that same discussion 
I talked about another group who were saying that they were 
working for Secord and North, but in essence had their own 
arms operation going, and they subsequently became known as 
the Supermarket Contras, but were using as a cover, from what 
I had heard, Secord and North's names. 

Q Do you know who those people were? 
A They were connected with Rob Martin. David Duncan 
was one of them. There is another name -- Alberto Cappo, and 

Patrice Genty. 

Q You have testified previously to handling money 

on behalf of North? 

A Right. 

Q TO give to other people, and you saw on numerous 
occasions North in the posession of money in his vault? 

A Right. 

Q In the safe: 



ssion of money in his vauJ 



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Right. 



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Q Let me start at the top here. As to yourself, 
besides the money you were paid as salary for your acts here, 
did you ever perosnally profit in any way, shape or form, from 
your activities down there? 

A While I was working for Adolpho Caler'^, I made 
$2500 a month, and whatever my travel expenses were, and I 
provided an accounting to Adolpho Calero -- and I would also 
provide a copy of that accounting, I would also usually provide 
a copy of the accounting to Oliver North. 

When I would take trips to New York to get the 
funds, I was paid usually out of North's safe for whatever my 
expenses were. 

When I worked for NAHO, I was provided a contract 
which said the maximum I could get would be $3650 a month. 
I took $3350, the other $500 I used to help cover expenses, 
phone calls, things like that. 

On one occasion, on my wedding, I was given a 
thousand dollars and that probeibly came from those funds. So 
that would be my only profit perhaps. 

Q Who gave it to you? 

A Oliver North. 



yNCLASSiFIED 



Q Did you understand that that was a gift? 
A Yes, it was in essence I guess you could say, a 
bonus or whatever, for the work that I was doing, but I would 



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ijtiffliD 



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like to add right now that I am in debt and have no job, so 
I don't think I profited from it. 

Q Do you have any knowledge — 

A And my wife will certainly admit that I didn't 

profit for it. 

Q Do you have any knowledge about Colonel North 
making any profit or taking any money from any of these funds 
that he was in posseion of or distributing to anybody? 

A I had heard on one occasion from one source who I 
did not always find reliable — 

Q Who is that? 

A fellow by the name of^^^^^^H I brought 
his name up before. I did not always think his information 
was reliable. I would find it very difficult to believe that 
Oliver North profited from it. 

AS one person said, if Oliver North profited from 
it it just Shows there is no Santa Claus. 

Q You have no evidence that indicates that? 

A none whatsoever. 

Q And you have seen nothing that indicates that? 

A I had heard rumors th at — 

Q FromI 

A FromI 

No, I have no evidence. 

And when did^^^^jtell you this rumor? 





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A The spring of '86, I believe. 

Q And how much under his rumor? 

A He didn't say. He didn't give any costs. 
Where is^^^^^^^^Hnow? 

A I don't know. Maybe Florida. 

Q Do you have any knowledge, have you seen any 
evidence or do you know of any evidence indicating that 

[made any profit or took any money in relationship to 
these activities? 

A No, I have no evidence and I would believe, as 
with Oliver North that neither one of them made any money out 
of this. 

Q How about Ambassador Tambs? 

A I have no evidence and I again would believe that 
they would not make money out of this. They were U.S. 
Government employees who were doing what they thought was 
right. 

Q How about Colonel Steele? 

A Again, I have no evidence. 

How about Adolfo Calero? 

A Again, there was quite a bit of speculation, rumor, 
that he or his brother, Mario, were making money, but I have 
no evidence. 

Q How about General Secord? 

A Again, rumors ran rife, and there was speculation 



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by a number of people that he was making money off of this. 
They were Nicaraguans who brought this up to my attention. 
There were Americans that brought this up to my attention, but 
I have no evidence nor no knowledge that he was making money 
off it. 

Q Now, with respect to legal opinions, early on I 
believe you testified as early as ' 85 you and Colonel North 
and perhaps Johnathan Miller, joked intermittently about who 
would go to jail first? 

A Right. 

Q At that point, or prior to that point, had you 
received or sought any legal advance with regard to your 
conduct up to that point? 

A ■ I did when I set up IDEA. 

Q When was that? 

A That was in January of 1985, and the fact was if 
I were to have done things through IDEA, I was concernedabout 
the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Also because I was being 
paid by Adolfo Calero that I was possibly in violation of that 
but it was also felt that I shouldn't register as a foreign 
agent, because obviously, that would tip off the press and 
others, so the decision was made that I would not file. 

(Off the record discussion) 

MR. LEON: Back on the record. 

MR. GREENBAUM: For the purposes of the record, 



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79 



we just want to confirm our discussion off the record that 
while Mr. Owen is prepared to be cooperative, we do not want 
to waive any attorney-client privilege and we respectfully 
request that any questions in that area be delayed until we 
have time to talk and consider it further. 
BY MR. LEON: 

Q Fine. 

Let me ask you this, Mr. Owen -- 

MR. GREENBAUM: Other than what he has already told 
you. 

BY MR. LEON: 

Q Right. 

Did Oliver North ever present you with any copy of 
any legal opinion that he received with respect to what he 
was doing on this program at any point in time? 

A No. Although I had heard that the lOB, the 
Intelligence Oversight Board, had provided him with a memo 
saying that what he was doing probably under the Boland 
amendment was legal, not illegal. 

Q Did he mention the name of who wrote it? 

A I know Bret Sciaroni, who was the counsel. 

Q Were you familiar with any private attorneys who 
Mr. North saught advice from with regard to these areas? 

A A conversation came up — and I don't know when it 
was — that they had run this by a private attorney and that 



!lh»*l AMlcirn 



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mmMi 



80 



he had found it was not illegal. 

Q Did he say the name of the private attorney? 

A It was probably Tom Green. 

Q Do you know when that would have teen that he ran 
it by him approximately? 



No, Id'- not know when it was. 

Could It have been as early as 1985? 

Yes. 

If knew it right from the outset of your activities 

Right. 

Did you have any role in the preparation of a 
chronology of events in the fall of 1986? 
A No. 

Q November of ' 86? 
A No. 
Q Has Oliver North asked you to assist him in the 

destruction of documents? 
A No. 
Q At the present time? 

A NO. I will say here that it has never really been 
asked, but I want to put it on the record that there were 
documents as things went along, taht he did destroy. 

Q At whose direction? 

A At my own. 

Q Why did you destroy them? 

A I didn't want to leave them hanging around. 



miASSKO 



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Q Security? 

A That, and then when it was felt that investigations 
were going to take place, I obviously knew there were some 
that I may have just thrown out, and also when I moved, there 
were just a number of papers that I had lying around that 
I threw out, out as you have with the documents that I 
provided you, obviously I did keep some and chose not to throw 
them out, so that there may have been some documents that 
I had provided for Colonel North that are not on record that 
he either kept or that I kept. 

Q I have an awful lot of other questions, but in 
deference to my Senate colleague, I think I will just turn it 
over to him right now and we will discuss them at another 
time, if we have a further deposition or another session. 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q Mr. Owen, were there any particular documents you 
can recall that you went out of your way to make sure were 
destroyed? 

A There may have been some lists or copies of lists 
of arms, things like that. I don't think there were any 
memos to Oliver. Actually, when I moved, as I said, I 
threw a number of things out. Included in that was the 
memo that we talked about proprietaries , and a memo from a 
lawyer which was used or which gave advice as to how to 
set up laundering operations, not laundering operations, but 



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I should say movement of funds overseas. 

Q And those you say were thrown out just in the process 
of a move as opposed to specifically trying to destroy them? 

A No. I was just going through things, and what I 
felt I needed or wanted to keep around, and I think it was 
about the time that the investigation was breaking because 
we moved about that time, so it may have been just before. 
I don't remember the time exactly. 

Q When this whole controversy that we are all here 
about first arose, was there ever occasion when because of 
the pendency of this controvery, you went through your 
documents and pulled out certain ones and destroyed them? 

A That was about the time that I moved, so I must have 
gone through and gone through and just said well, there is no 
reason to have this. Maybe there were names on it that I didn' 
want if I were ever subpoenaed or documents subpoenaed I didn't 
want on the documents or lists of munitions and things like 
that, but I can't — to recreate them, the specific ones was 
the proprietary, the other one from the lawyer regarding the 
setting up of overseas bank accounts. 
BY MR. LEON: 

Q Do you know the lawyer's name? 

A Yes, his name is Bill Kasselman. He is a lawyer in 
town. He probably has a copy. 




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BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q Did any of the documents that you either destroyed 
or got rid of contain information concerning the involvement 
of U.S. Government officials in this operation or various 
operations? 

A No, because by and large, the only U.S. Government 
official I had dealings with were Colonel North and then, when 
I was with NHAO. 

Q Tell us about how it came about that you delivered 
these encryption devices to Central America, and who you 
delivered them to? 

A I only delivered one, and that was to 

I and Colonel North asked me to come over and 
take it down for him, plus with the month's encryption. 
There was usually a cannister, this was a cannister for each 
one that would have each day the code would change, and I took 
that down for the month. 

I believe it was through the month of April. I think 
that possibly came out of the botched flight at the end of 
March. I told Colonel North in a memo that he should set up 
secure communications like betwee 

land Washington, for the private aid networ 

Q And there was just the one encryption device that 
you took down? 

A Yes, that was the only one. I knew that Gadd had 
one, and certainly that Colonel North had one, and that Secord 




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had one. I don't know where the others went, and I don't know 
who -- 

Q You didn't deliver it to anybody inl 

A No. They did not have one at the time. I think 
I subsequently learned that Chi Chi Contero took one down or 
had access to one. 

Q Were these KL-4 3s? 

A TRWs. I didn't know the terminology. I guess that i 
what they were. 

Q Because of all of the work that^^^^^^^^^^^ftiad to 
do down south, didn't you and others sometimes refer to him 
as the Coramandante of the South? 

A No, I never did. 

Q Did you hear other people call him that? 

A No, not really. 

Q I thought you told us that last time that he was 
called the Commandante of the South? 

A No, I don't think. I don't remember that. You can 
go back and check the notes, but I don't remember that. 

Q Since this controversy erupted, have you talked with 
Oliver North about any of the facts that you have testified 
to here today? 

A No. I have met with him on two occasions. Each 
time, he had his lawyer and I had my lawyer. I have talked 
to him on the phone a couple of times, but each time it was jus 



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for personal reasons, telling him my wife was pregnant and 
other things, but both at his urging and my urging, I mean, 
and at our lawyers' urging, certainly we did not want to discus 
anything specific. 

I talked to him on the day that all of this 
erupted, and that was the time when he said, well, you know 
that I would never have done anything that would not been 
in essence ordered or sanctioned. It was his lawyer who -- 
I talked to his lawyer just on those occasions. 

Q Did Colonel North ever tell you that he had 
personally met with the President to discuss any of the 
contra operations he was involved with? 

A He would constantly refer to going across the street, 
or when I was in there, he would have meetings that he would 
have to go to across the street, to go over things both 
when Admiral Poindexter and Mr. McFarlane were the 
National Security Advisers, and those comments came up, 
but specifically meeting with the President, no, he never said 
that explicitly to me. 

Q Did he ever imply to you that he had met with the 
President and discussed with him any of these operations? 

A After the shootdown of the C-123, I talked with him 
about my concern for Buzz Sawyer and his family, and at that 
time, he recommended, well, why don't you write a memo on it 
to me, and just talk a little bit about Buzz. 



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I said what are you going to do with it. He said, 
"I just might show it to the President." 

Q For what purpose? 

A Probably to show the President what a great American 
Buzz Sawyer was. 

Q Is this the memorandum that you would have prepared 
understanding this was specifically something that the 
President might see? 

A Right, but I will add that due to time constraints 
and other things that the memorandvim never got to, I don't 
believe I ever gave it to Colonel North. 

Q Do you still have a copy of it? 

A No. 

Q Do you know what happened to it? 

A It was on a computer disc and the computer disc was 
erased by one of the people in the office by mistake. 

Q Did the proposed memorandum discuss anything 
beyond Buzz Sawyer as a person? 

A No. 

Q For example, the types of operations he was working 
on? 

A No, it was just a reflection on him as an 
individual, and my friendship with him. 

Q You were asked some questions about any 
discussions, anything Colonel North said aibout the President 



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meeting with private fundraisers. 

I believe you said that you had never discussed 
that specific issue with Colonel North. Did you ever discuss 
presidential fundraising with anyone else? 

A I knew that there was an effort underway to raise 
funds, and that they were using the White House as a means to 
show that they were sanctioned by the Administration. 

I also knew that when they had the Nicaraguan 
Refugee Fund Dinner in April of 1985, that the reason the 
President came and spoke was because of Oliver North, or it 
seemed it was at the urging of Oliver North, and that that 
was an effort to raise funds for refugees, and I knew that the 
National Endowment for Democracy, Spitz Channell, would hold 
certain briefings for people when they would come into town 
and they would be briefed over at the White House and occasion-j 
ally some of them would then go into the President. 

Q This was for fundraising? 

A Fundraising. 

Q Do you know whether or not — who told you these 
things? Who described these fundraising efforts to you? 

A I don't want to use the word network, but the 
group of people who were involved in it was fairly limited. 



and I knew them. 

Q Who was it? 

A I usually knew what was going on. I guess I was 



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albe to just sort of through listening learn a lot of things 
that had happened. 

I had known Frank Gomez and Richard Miller. I was 
first introduced to them by Colonel North, I believe, in the 
fall of 1984, and then I had heard rumors about some meetings 
that took place in March of 1984 between Adolfo Calero and 
Spitz Channell. 

I knew that Dcm Conrad and Channell were involved 
in the refugee fund dinner, at least Dan Conrad was, and then 
during the summer of 1985, one of the people who was helping 
me a little bit by helping, he was a student who was just here 
for the summer, and I had sponsored him on a trip down to 
Central America, on a couple of trips down to Central America 
for doing refugee reports. 

He was asked by Spitz Channell 's group to make 
phone calls to people, asking them to attend a -secret White 
House briefing on the situation in Nicaragua, where they would 
be briefed by Administration officials. It would cost them 
$10,000 to show up, and if they couldn't come and they wanted 
to send in $5,000, that that would be fine, and as a matter of 
fact, I went to Colonel North and brought this to his atten- 
tion. 

I said, "Look, Colonel, I think you have got people 
saying there are going to be secret briefings. Although you 
want to give them hype, I think if the press ever got hold of 



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it, it would be a disaster to the effort." 

Q Did you know what the specific purpose of the 
fundraising was, what was going to be done with the money? 

A I had heard that it was a combination for the 
advertisements, television advertisements that were being 
undertaken, and also for a PR campaign. 

I did not know that funds, as I subsequently 
learned in the newspapers, that funds were going to be used 
to purchase arms. 

Q You didn't know that? Nobody told you that? 

A No. 

Q Nobody implied that? 

A No. There may not be any correlation, but when 
I was in Costa Rica in December 198 5, I was getting ready to 
leave ^^^^^^H came out to the airport, asked me to — told 
me he had gotten a call from Colonel North and Colonel North 
wanted me to go^^^^^^^^^Hto work on a toy project. 

I subsequently — the flight for^^^^^^fhad 
already left. We looked into chartering a flight, for me to 
go ^o^^^^^^^l I^ would have been prohibitively expensive 
to do that. 1 didn't have the cash, and there wasn't any oth€ 
way I could get it, so I called North and we talked briefly 
over the phone, and then we decided that I would come back 
to the states. 

He had wanted me to go tc^^^^^^^Bto meet with 




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Colonel Steel, regarding a shipment of, 1 think 
described it as toys that were coming. 
MR. LEON: When was this? 
THE WITNESS: December of 1985. 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q Coming in from where? 

A He didn't say. 

Q By air? 

A I believe so. That was the impression that I got, 
but I surmised it was probably an arms shipment that was 
coming in. 

Q And you just couldn't get a flight down there? 

A No. The thought was I could fly to Miami and then 
fly back tc^^^^^^^B Then by the time I got to Miami, it 
was teUcen care of in another way. 

Q Did you have any follow-up after that to find out 
what took place? 

A No. I think it was probably that they got Chichi 
Contero to handle it, but I don't know for a fact. 

Q But the original call from Colonel North to go 
down there and specifically talk with Colonel Steel about 
this? 

A Right. Again, the only reason I bring it up is 
because toys have been used in the toys account, to talk abou 
to help with some toys that were coming in. 



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91 

Q About how many times did you travel to Central 
America officially on behalf of NAH07 

A I would have to go check my records. 

Q Can you give me an approximation at this time? Five, 
six, ten? 

A Ten or fifteen times maybe. 

Q And on one or more of those trips, is it fair to 
say that while you were in Central America, you were also 
doing the things that Colonel North wanted you to do to assist 
in various weapons shipment, matters involving military 
equipment, things such as that? 

A Yes. There would probably be a couple. 

Q And on those occasions when you did that, you did no- 
advise anyone at NAHO that you were also engaged in that 
activity, did you? 

A No, I did not. 
MR. LEON: Why? 

THE WITNESS: It was not appropriate. There was a 
need to know, and they didn't need to know. 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

Q Back in November of 1984, involving those 
helicopters, you know that matter? 

A Right. 

Q ^^^^^^^^^^^^Bthat you took down there, those 
were specif ically^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hweren ' t 



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Q The incident involving^^^^^^^^^^^|in the spring 
of 1985 out by the side of the OEOB, the individual who was 
diring the car was Peter Flaherty? 

A I believe so, yes. 

Q He worked for Citizens for Reagan at the time? 

A Right. He had sort of undertaken helpingi 

just being a resource for them, and I think his group 
had provided some funding for them, too, to help them get 
through. 

Q Did you ever discuss this matter directly with him? 

A No. 

Q He was just present in the car? 

A Yes , and there may have been one or two people in 
the car, too. 

Q The March 1986 matter involving the flight, the 
equipment that was in^^^^^^^Hhat was supposed to be preser 
[o be loaded for a drop for the Southern Force? 

A Yes. 

Q When that plane then flew empty tc^^^^^^Htell 
me, because I think we went past this pretty quickly, who all 
was present at the meetings at^^^^^^Hto discuss what to do 



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about the situation? 

A John Copp, who was Dick Gadd's representative, 
I did not know how much he knew, and this, I believe, ma> have 
been his first trip down there, so he was sort of, it was 
kind of ironic, he would be making calls to Gadd and I would 
be making calls to North. 

I knew he was calling Gadd. I don't think he knew 
who North was or who I was calling. As a matter of fact, 
before he left, it was during an incursion and so I kept in 
constant touch by phone with North to find out when the intel- 
intelligence was such that we should go, because there was somi 
thought that the Sandinistas might bring in helicopters and 
attac ^^^ 

Chichi Cotero was at the meetings, myself, Felix 
Rodreguiz , Colonel Steel, and Ramone Medina. 
Q Who was Steel calling? 

A On one occasion we asked Steel if he would call 
I to find out what went wrong. 
I think it came back that^^^^^^^^^^Vdidn ' t want to talk to 
him. 

He tried to call on a secure line. 
MR. SMILJANICH: We are going to have to stop and 
remember we will reconvene at some other time. 

MS. BENSON: Can I ask just one question. 

Going back to the time you were in New York and you 




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brought back some money., 95-100 dollar bills to General 
Secord, and you gave those to him at the Sheraton Carlton 
Hotel. Did he say what he was going to do with the money? 

A No, he did not, and on the other occasion when 
I brought back envelopes to Colonel North, he didn't say what 
he was going to do with them other than he had some — I mean 
he would use the funds for his operations. 

Q Did General Secord say anything about the money when 
you handed it to him? 

A No. 

I just want to add for the record that on several 
occasions when I did talk with Colonel North and his lawyer, 
that they stressed that I should, when the appropriate time 
came, cooperate and tell the truth because that is what they 
were going to do and they wanted to be sure that I did not 
cover anything up or in any way try to save someone else, 
including especially Colonel North. 

. (Whereupon, at 12:00 noon, the taking of the 
deposition was adjourned, to reconvene at a later date.) 



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CONFIDENTIAL 
UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

DEPOSITION OF ROBERT W. OWEN (Continued) 

Washington, D. C. 
Wednesday, May 6, 1987 

Deposition of ROBERT W. OWEN, called for further exam- 
ination pursuant to agreement, at the offices of the Senate 
Select Committee, Suite 901, Hart Senate Office Building, at 
5:30 p.m. before JOEL BREITNER, Court Reporter, when were 

present : 

Partially Declasatied/Released on 1 ^ vJ A-N 88 
unoer orovisions o( E 12356 
TERRY SMILJANICH, ESQ. by K Johnson. Natonal Sscunty Council 

Associate Counsel 
RICHARD PARRY, ESQ. 
Associate Counsel 
United States Senate Select 

Committee on Secret Military 

Assistance to Iran and the 

Nicaraguan Opposition 



RICHARD J. LEON, ESQ. 

Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 

W. NEIL EGGLESTON 

Deputy Chief Counsel 

United States House of 
Representatives Select 
Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions 
With Iran 




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1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 
2 



DIANE DORNAN 
Professional Staff 
Permanent Select Committee 
on Intelligence 

4 United States House 
of Representatives 

5 

5 LEONARD C. GREENEBAUM, ESQ. 
THOMAS HYLDEN, ESQ. 
Sachs, Greenebaum & Tayler 
1140 Connecticut Avenue, N.W. 
Washington, D. C. 20036 

8 On behalf of the Deponent. 



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^ CONTENTS 

2 WITNESS EXAMINATION 

3 Robert w. Owen (Resumed) 

. by Mr. Smiljanich ^ 

by Mr. Leon *° 

by Mr. Smiljanich ~' 

5 by Mr. Leon ^° 
by Mr. Smiljanich ^" 

6 by Mr. Eggleston |^ 
by Mr. Leon 



7 by Ms. Dornan 
by Mr. Leon 

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1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 MR. SMILJANICH: This is a continuation of 

3 Mr. Owen's deposition that started on Monday. Mr. Owen, for 

4 purposes of this deposition, it's a continuation so you are 

5 still under oath. Do you understand that? 

6 THE WITNESS: Yes, I understand. 

7 Whereupon, 

8 ROBERT H. OMEN 

9 resumed the stand and, having been previously duly sworn, was 

10 examined and testified further as follows: 

11 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

12 Q I'm going to jump around because all I'm trying to 

13 do is fill in details here and there either I missed or we 

14 didn't cover. 

15 First of all, do you know a man by the name of 

16 Oagobarto Nunez? 

17 A Yes. 

16 Q How do you know him? 

19 A I met him several years ago. I cannot remember 

20 when. I was introduced to him by, I believe, John Hull. He 

21 was born in Cuba. I believe he's a naturalized permanent 

22 citizen and living in Costa Rica. 



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1 Q In October of 1986, did you ask hia to do anything j 

2 for you? « , 

3 A He came up to, I believe it was in October of *86, 

4 he cane up to Washington and he aet with ae and aet with a 

Am. 

5 fellow by the name of Glenn Robinet. 

A 

6 Q Who is Glenn Robinet? 

7 A Glenn Robinet was an individual who I was 

8 introduced to, probably in the early suaaer of 1986. It was 

9 my understanding that he was responsible for, I guess, in 

10 soae way, security tor General Secord's organization. 

11 I was asked to aeet hia. I cannot reaember by 

12 who, but I did ask Lieutenant Colonel North about him and he 

13 said he's a trustworthy person and you can confide in hia. 

14 Q You aean Glenn Robinet? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Who introduced you to Glenn Robinet? 

17 A I believe we met in a hotel lobby. We did a phone 
16 conversation and set up a meeting, but I can't remember 

19 exactly. 

20 Q How do you know he worked for General Secord? 

21 A He would tell me. He told me a couple of times 

22 and also I believe Colonel North made mention of it as well . 



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Q Why did you put Mr. Nunez in touch with 
Mr. Robinet? 

A At the tine Mr. Robinet was doing some work for 
General Secord, or very interested, I should say, because oE 
the lawsuit that was brought against General Secord and 
myself and 28 others. 

Q You are referring to the Avignone-Honey lawsuit? 

A Yes. The infamous Avignone-Honey lawsuit. 

Q Go ahead. Hhat about the lawsuit did he want 
accomplished? 

A General Secord, obviously, being one of the 
defendants, was concerned about it. It was more of a 
nuisance. In the beginning we thought it was more of a 
nuisance suit than anything else. 

Then, as it went on and as the judge continued to 
accept amended complaints, there was a concern as to how one 
could fight this, what we felt was, at one time -- what we 
still feel is a disinformation campaign that was going on and 
a totally irrelevant suit. 




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MR. GREENEBAUM: Hold it one ainute. 
(Recess . ) 

BY MR. 5MILJANICH: 
Q Mr. Owen, did the discussions thdt Mr. Nunez and 
Mr. Robinet had that you are faailiar with or knowledgeable 
about have anything to do -- did they simply involve the 
matters of defense of the Avignone-Honey lawsuit? 

A Yes, they did. They were centered around that 
because — 

MR. HYLDEN; You've answered the question. 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 
Q Let's move on. Tom Posey and his organization. 



CMA. 



A Yes. 

Q Did, to your knowledge, did he or his organization 
have any involvement with lethal aid in Central America? 
(Discussion off the record.) 

MR. SMILJANICH: Would you read the question 
please? 

(The reporter read the record as requested.) 

THE WITNESS: As I believe I may have testified to 



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1 earlier, I ledrned through newspaper accounts that there were 

2 some oC his own private arms that he had registered, I 

3 believe, in the United States, that showed upj 

4 I do not believe nor to ay knowledge, he did not 

5 have any involvenent in large procurements or novement of 

6 arms outside the United States, froa the United States 

7! outside, to my knowledge. There may have been, as I said, 

8 small amounts, miscellaneous weapons that moved with 

9 individual people. 

10 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

11 Q I. understand. Going back to the pi'oposals that 

12 Gray & Company and you prepared for the FDN? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q There was the one proposal that was an official 

15 proposal from Gray & Company involving public relations, 

16 lobbying efforts, things like that; is that correct? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q The other proposal, I want to make sure I 

19 understand exactly what you've said about those — that other 

20 proposal. This was a separate proposal prepared by you and 

21 Neil Livingston? • ^ ' 

22 A Right. It was — Neil Livingston and I sat down 



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1 and talked about what would go in it. He was the one that in 

2 essence wrote it and I delivered it. 

3 Q Okay. That proposal, you no longer have a copy o£ 

4 that proposal? 

5 A No. 

6 Q And the proposal involved the setting up of 

7 proprietary companies? 

8 A There were several options. This was in late 

9 April, early May. There was, according to Colonel North, 

10 there was a need to try and find a way to support these 

11 people when the funds did run out. The proposal offered 

12 several options, one of which was setting up a group of 

13 proprietary companies which could be used for purchasing 

14 goods overseas, and the other proposal was setting up 

15 nonprofit organizations which could be used for independent 

16 fundraising here in the United States for humanitarian 

17 goods. 

18 As a matter of fact, it turned out that we did — 

19 I did show — I can't remember if it was the exact same 

20 proposal or another proposal, to representatives of the FDN, 

21 in which we discussed the possibility of setting up a 

22 nonprofit organization, and there were two options on that. 



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1 One, there were several nonprofit organizations that were in 

2 existence that we had access to and could be used. Or, there 

3 was developing a whole new nonprofit, and also the FDN had 

4 three organizations that might have fit under that rubric. 

5 The FDN was concerned that we had suggested that 

6 there be Americans on the board to have oversight of the 

7 distribution of funds. They wanted to be sure that they 

8 wouJd have the responsibility for disbursement of funds. 

9 They didn't want to leave that in the hands of, necessarily, 

10 all Americans. 

11 Q Did any part of this proposal deal with ways of 

12 obtaining arms that the FDN could use? 

13 A In setting up a trading company, obviously there 

14 was — one of the ways that a military force sustains itself 

15 and functions is to have arms. So that was — it came up 

16 that as a possibility, that the trading group could be used 

17 for purchasing arms overseas. 

IB Q Do you recall whether any aspect of this proposal 

19 dealt with the use of foreign military sales? 

20 A No. There was no, to my knowledge that I can 

21 remember, no aspect of that involved at all. 

22 Q No aspect involving diversion of foreign military 




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1 sales in — with regard to third countries to the Contras? 

2 A No. None whatsoever that I can renenber. 

3 Q Do you Icnow what Oliver North did with this 

4 proposal? 

5 A He and I had several discussions. I went and did 

6 have a neeting, as I said, with representatives o£ the FDN. 

7 After that Meeting I went back to Colonel North and told him 

8 what his reactions were — or what the FDN's reactions were; 

9 and I can't remember the timing exactly, but I — 

10 subsequently I think I took a trip down to Central America, 

11 to the region, to look at what was going on. 

12 But, as £ar as anything else coming out oE that 

13 proposal, as time went on it was decided just to pass on it. 

14 He felt that some money was needed up front to set up the 

15 organizations so that they would be in existence and we would 

16 do it legally and correctly, and we went back and forth and 

17 we were directed to talk with a couple of different people 

18 about that and about these organizations. But, again, as I 

19 said, nothing really came of it. 

20 Q You mentioned, and I don't know if this was on the 

21 record or off the record, a meeting in the spring or summer 

22 of 1986 involving General Singiaub and Barbara Studley in 



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1 which you think she may have met with Oliver North. Do you 

2 know what !'■ talking about? 

3 A I was shown a docuaent by Hr. Eggleston at one 

4 time, and he asked me if I had ever seen it and I said it was 

5 — I mean I had gotten it from Barbara Studley and been asked 

6 to deliver it to Colonel North. Is this what you are 

7 referring to? 

8 MR, SMILJANICH: Has that during the deposition? 

9 MR. EGGLESTON: Yes, it was. I think I showed it 

10 to you during the deposition. 

11 MR. SMILJANICH: It was on my notes in a place 

12 where it looked like it wasn't during the deposition. 

13 MR. EGGLESTON: I have to say I don't recall for 

14 certain whether it was. 

15 MR. LEON: You presented him with it. I do recall 

16 it for certain. You absolutely presented it to him. 

17 MR. SMILJANICH: Off the record. 

18 (Discussion off the record.) 

19 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

20 Q I don't happen to have that document with me, but 

21 what do you recall about that incident? 

22 A I was called by Barbara Studley to go over to her 



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1 hoae. Or it may have been General Singlaub, maybe called me, 

2 to go over and meet him and Barbara Studley at her home. A5 

3 I said I think this was sometime, perhaps during the summer 

4 of 1986. She had just moved into town, just moved into her 

5 house. It was warm out. They gave me a copy oE a document 

6 which they asked me to deliver to Colonel North. It 

7 suggested setting up, if I remember correctly — I don't have 

8 it in front of me — but setting up some corporations or 

9 trading companies that would be used to move arms that would 

10 be provided by the United States to foreign countries, and 

11 they would pay, I think, a higher price, knowing that those 

12 funds wauld be then used, from the trading company, to buy 

13 other arms to go to insurgencies around the world: Angola, 

14 Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Cambodia, and so forth. 

15 Again, that is just a rough approximation, without 

16 having it in front of me. 

17 Q And then, what, you gave this document to Colonel 

18 North? 

19 A Yes. I set up an appointment with Colonel North. 

20 I went in to see him, talked with him, provided him with the 

21 document. He looked at it. His immediate reaction was that 

22 this is not -- does not seem viable. How are we going to get 



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1 U.S. corporations involved in sonething like this, ox- other 

2 corporations? I do remember that Israel was one of the 

3 countries that was going to be a main player. 

4 Q Has that the end of it as far as you knew? 

5 \ 1 believe I may have talked to Barbara Studley at 

6 some future time. She may have said that she had a meeting 

7 with Colonel North to discuss it, but I don't think it went 

8 any further. 

9 Q During the August 1984 Republican convention, you 

10 met General Singlaub and Mdolfo Calero — at the convention? 

11 A Yes — no. They were at a meeting at the CNP, 

12 Council for National Policy, where Oliver North was speaking 

13 and also, I believe, he was a member. I went over and met 

14 them there at hotel. As a matter of fact, I think I picked 

15 — I may have picked up Colonel North at airport. 

16 Q Okay. That was going to be my question. You 

17 mentioned Colonel North being there, but this wasn't at a 
IB Republican convention? 

19 A No. 

20 Q This was a meeting of the CNP? 

21 A Right. 

22 Q And the discussion concerned exactly what? 




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1 A He met off and on. Colonel North gave a speech. 

2 I think it possibly was that evening. 

3 Let me backtrack. There was also a dinner that 

4 took place. I was not — did not attend the dinner but after 

5 the dinner they had a reception in one of the rooms upstairs 

6 where I believe Adolfo Calero spoke. There was also a member 

7 of CNF who was running for Congress in California and he also 

8 spoke. A series of conversations just took place, sort of 

9 offhand. There wasn't a formalized meeting with Colonel 

10 North and Adolfo Calero and General Singlaub and so forth, 

11 during these days that the meetings took place — that the 

12 CNF meeting was taking place. 

13 Q Did — I'm sorry? 

14 A I was just going to say I think there were 

15 conversations about fundraising for Adolfo Calero. One of 

16 the reasons he was there, I think was he was hoping he could 

17 raise some funds from the CNF members, and he always was 

18 invited as a guest. I think that still may be true. 

19 Q Did Colonel North and Adolfo Calero discuss 

20 anything in regard to military equipment and needs? 

21 A They may have and think I may have mentioned that 

22 earlier. But I don't remember specifics. 



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Q You have testified about a tiae in which! 




I believe you testified Oliver North said he would 
take care] 

K Yes. 

Q You also testified about one tiae in which you 
carried money — 

A Yes . 

Q ^^^^^^^^^Hdo you know beyond that whether 
not Colonel North did anything to follow up on his promise to 
take care] 

A I never personally carried aoney again that I can 
remember, but I know that Colonel North did set up a means 
where^^^^^^^^^Hwas receiving funds so that he could stay 
within the movement and didn't have to worry about providing 
for his family. 

Q Did Colonel North ever tell you what he had — how 
he had accomplished this? 

A No, not exactly. I heard that there was a 
possibility that some grants were being put together from 



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1 various organizations which might be able to help] 

2 out. That's all that I can really reaember. 

3 Q All right. I believe you testified you once gave 

4 money ^o^^^^^^^^s that correct? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q Tell me when was that? 

7 A That was in spring of 1985. He was in town and 

8 needed some money for his expenses, hotel room and so forth. 

9 I can't remember what it was. I think there may have been a 

10 second time that he was owed. The only reason I remember 

11 this is because one of the documents I was shown, something 

12 about him being owed 91200, and I remember there was 

13 discussions and I think I might have given it to him. I just 

14 can't remember. 

15 Q In the spring of '85 do you know how much money he 

16 was given at that time? 

17 A No. I don't think it was — it was probably just 

18 a couple of hundred dollars, as a matter of fact, to take 

19 care of hotel rooms and so forth. 

20 Q And on both occasions did you get the money from 

21 Colonel North in the form of traveler's checks? 

22 A Yes. Out of the infamous safe. 



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Q Okay. You have talked about several matters 
involving General Secord, but I don't have clear in my mind 
exactly when it was you first met Secord. When was that? 

A I believe it was sometime in 1986. I saw him in 
passing. I think sometime in '85. Maybe on a couple of 
occasions — we never really were formally introduced. I 
think the first time I was formally introduced to him was in 
Colonel North's office. 

Q Sometime in 1986? 

A No, actually it had to be in '85 because I did 
provide him with some money at one time, too, in 1985. So it 
might have been the summer of 1985? 



Q 
A 
Q 
and all 
A 
Q 



You gave General Secord money? 

Yes. That was from the trip to New York. 

Oh, yes, the incident with the rolled up newspaper 



Right. Right. 

Okay. 

The time in which Ollie North told you that he and 
Secord wanted to take control of the funds away from Adolfo 
Calero because they felt he was not managing them properly, 
when was it that you first heard this was their feeling? 



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1 A I knew that a aeeting had taken place in Miaai. 

2 General Secord referred to it in hia testimony. I was just 

3 -- I was not fully knowledgeable about it but I knew a 

4 meeting took place between Adolfo Calero and Colonel North 

5 and others. There was rximor, it may have been Colonel North 

6 who brought it up, I can't remember, about the concern of 

7 Mario Calero and the impropriety of him purchasing goods for 

8 his work. I really can't remember where I heard that. I 

9 know General Secord again expressed that to me in a meeting 

10 that we had that may have been in September of 1986. 

11 Q Again I apologize for jumping around. Back in 

12 June of 1984 when you traveled to Central America, and, among 

13 other things, you had a discussion withj 

14 in which they stated that they needed about $1 million a 

15 month to fund — to keep themselves alive, and they wanted to 

16 do a little better than that? 

17 A Right. 

18 Q In that conversation, I believe you told us in the 

19 interview, but I don't know if it came out in the deposition, 
t h a t^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bw a s 

21 A He came in during a conversation that I was having 

22 



with 




and there were others in the room as 



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1 well. The extent t}f that meeting was such that he said: 

2 "Look, we know why 'you are here and we know that you want to 

3 help and we certainly appreciate any help that you can 

4 provide." But that was the extent. I do not believe in my 

5 menory that he was the one who said anything about funds. He 

6 just wanted to let us know that he knew we were there and 

7 they would be appreciative for what we could do. 

8 Q Didn't you — didn't he say something to the 

9 effect that, at first, something like: "I'm not here"?. 

10 A Right. I mean he said this is another one of 

11 those nonmeetings, in essence. 

12 Q You said that when Calero hired you, one of your 

13 duties was to do things that Ollie North couldn't do. 

14 A Hell, I don't think that I testified to that. My 

15 job description was very loose and it sort of evolved, just 

16 like my work for Adolf o Calero evolved. My doing things for 

17 Ollie North evolved. It was not, quote unquote, part of a 

18 job description. 

19 Q But when you first made your arrangements with 

20 Calero — 

21 A Right. 

22 Q — did he understand that you were going to be 



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1 doing a lot of work for North in connection with the things 

2 that Ollie couldn't do? 

3 A That never came up. As far as I can remember that 

4 never came. 

5 (Discussion off the record.) 

6 THE WITNESS: I think I can answer that 

7 satisfactorily to you, in that there was a memo that I wrote 

8 to Colonel North. I believe it was on November 4th, where I 

9 discussed my decision to go with — to leave Gray & Company 

10 and go with Adolf o Calero and work for him. And I said one 

11 of the things in that meeting was — and I will obviously do 

12 whatever it is that I can to help you in your effort. 

13 Subsequently that was when, within a week, I was asked to 

14 take documents down to Central America. 

15 BY HR. SMILJANICH: 

16 Q I see what you are saying. Okay. 

17 A So I don't think in that meeting we explicitly 

18 said that, but in the meetings I had with Colonel North right 

19 after that and also in this memo you have access to where I 

20 outlined what the potential was. 

21 Q So one of the first things you did in connection 

22 with that was take that material down to Central America? 



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1 A Right. 

2 Q Okay. Approxiaately when was it that you were 

3 first introduced to Richard Gadd? 

4 A I was introduced to him by phone, either in 

5 October or early November. As best as I can recollect. 

6 Q In 1985? 

7 A 1985. I was first introduced to him as Mr. East. 

8 East and West and North and South — 

9 Q Right. And who introduced you to him? 

10 A I was told by Colonel North to call him. 

11 Q What did Colonel North say about him? 

12 A He said, if I can remember, again this was a long 

13 time ago, it was: "Please call this gentleman up. We want 

14 him to take care of the resupply for NHAO, and would you, 

15 after you have a conversation with him, set up a phone call 

16 or make a phone call to Mario Calero and suggest to Mario 

17 that he talk with him and that he would be the person that 

18 would best be suited for handling the transportation of 

19 humanitarian goods." 

20 Q Did you talk to Gadd before you talked to Mario 

21 Calero? 

22 A I believe yes, I did. 



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1 Q Hhat did he tell you? 

2 A Just the same thing; that he felt he would be able 

3 to do — provide the services that they would want, and we 

4 talked about setting up ay calling Mario and then calling him 

5 back to let him know that I called him to set up the — make 

6 the introduction. 

7 Q Did you, when you called Mario, did you tell him 

8 where or did you drop any names in connection with Dick Gadd? 

9 A No. With Mario Calero you never dropped names. 

10 Q Why is that? 

11 A He had a propensity to talk. 

12 Q Okay. You just told him this is coming from you? 

13 A I said — no. I said "Mario, there's someone that 

14 I know of that I think would be able to handle your resupply 

15 needs for the NHAO goods. I hope you will talk with him and 

16 give him all due consideration because he probably would be 

17 the best person for it." 

18 He asked: "Well, how do I know that?" 

19 And I said something to the effect of: "Well, he 

20 has been highly recommended by a number of friends." But I 

21 did not use Colonel North's name, which I believe is what you 
22 



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1 Q Okay. 

2 (Discussion off the record.) 

3 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

4 Q Was there something you wanted to add? 

5 A Oh, you guys tracked down some traveler's check. 

6 Q I don't need to nake this an exhibit for the 

7 deposition. We'll just identify it with the nunbers that we 

8 staap on all our documents. 

9 Let ae show you; there's a whole stack here. 

10 A I'm impressed with you guys. 

11 Q A document marked 003700, is a copy of a 

12 traveler's check for $500. Is that one of the traveler's 

13 checks you would have negotiated? 

14 A It's got my signature, so obviously it would be. 

15 Q That's your signature? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Do you recall that all the traveler's checks that | 

i 

18 you dealt with were these Visa traveler's checks on the Banco 

19 de Pichincha? 

20 A No. They were not all out of that bank. 

21 Q Do you recall the other banks they were drawn on? 

22 A It was a Popular Bank, and I think there was one 



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1 other one, too. God, are those all ay signature? 

2 Q No. 

3 Let me show you page 003702; the top signature, 

4 that's your signature? 

5 A Right. 

6 Q Do you recognize who this signature is? 

7 A No. Not ofehand. I wish I could write like that; 

8 then you guys couldn't ask ae. 

9 Q Let ae show you 003704; do you have any idea whose 

10 signature that is? Does it look faailiar? 

11 A No. You don't aind if i look in the back to see 

12 what bank it is? See, Qviesada is a Costa Rican bank where 

13 John Hull has an office. It doesn't look like his signature 

14 but, speculating — 

15 Q You don't know that's John Hull's signature? 

16 A No. 

17 Q Page O0370S, do you recognize that signature? 

18 A No. 

19 Q It's also drawn on a Costa Rican — 

20 A It alaost looks like Goaez, but — I don't know. 

21 You can't trust everybody these days. 

22 Q Are you familiar with Jonathan Miller's 



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1 signature? Does that look like his? 

2 A It looks like his. 

3 Q Are you familiar with — 

4 A I have seen him write. 

5 Q That's 0073708. 

6 (Discussion off the record.) 

7 BY MR. LEON: 

8 Q You said you got a $1000 bonus when you got 

9 married, right? 

10 A Right. 

11 Q When did you get married? 

12 A Why or when? 

13 Q When? 

14 A If you were going to ask me why, I'd tell you now 

15 I need somebody to support me. 

16 I got married in October of 1986. October 19th. 

17 Q Did you get the money in traveler's checks? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Hell, let's see if we can locate those. Would 

20 they be in there? 

21 MR. PARRY: What was the date? 

22 THE WITNESS: I got married in October of 1986; 



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1 October 19th. 

2 MR. SMILJANICH: Are those chronological? 

3 HR. PARRY: Yes. 

4 THE HITNESS: I don't reaeaber whether that was 

5 Popular Bank or what bank that was. 

6 MR. SMILJANICH: That's all I have. Thank you. 

7 MR. LEON: Any questioning? 

8 MR. EGGLESTON: No. I don't have anything else I 

9 want to do. 

10 (Discussion o£f the record. ) 

11 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

12 Q Do you know where the Mandalay Four Seasons Hotel 

13 is? Take your tiae. 

14 MR. HYLDEN: There's all sorts of triflings we 

15 haven't invoked yet. 

16 THE HITNESS: Mandalay — 

17 (Laughter.) 

18 MR. GREENEBAUM: Off the record. 

19 (Discussion off the record.) 

20 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

21 Q Do you know where it is? 

22 A No, I don't. Can you tell ae? 



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1 Q I have no idea. 

2 A The Four Seasons chain is not very big. Mandalay, 

3 I would say, would be in the Orient, Hong Kong; it would just 

4 be a guess. 

5 Q That's all I have, Richard? 

6 MR. LEON: I have a few. I didn't have ffluch 

7 chance to prepare for this, but let ae give you a few that 
6 occur to ffle. 

9 BY HR. LEON: 

10 Q Diversion, diversion of funds fro» Iran to Central 

11 America. 

12 You have probably been asked it, but I want to be 

13 sure it's clear in ay mind. Did Ollie ever share with you 

14 the confidence that he was either planning to or had 

15 effectuated a diversion of funds froa Iranian deals he was 

16 working on? 

17 A No. 

18 Q He never did? 

19 A No. 

20 Q So you first learned about it in the newspapers, 

21 so to speak? 

22 A My tongue dropped just like everyone else's did on 



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1 November 25, whatever the date is. 

2 Q Did you in any way, shape, or form help him with 

3 respect to assisting in any non-Central Aaerican matters and 

4 the Iranian — 

5 \ No. 

6 Q The Chinese deli, or whatever it was, place, story 

7 you told o£ the 95 $100 bills that you obtained. That was in 

8 October of '85 was it? 

9 A No, Septeaber. I believe it was September 16th, 

10 Rosh Hashanah holiday because all the banks were closed. 

11 Q Okay. And you were simply serving as a messenger? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q You were asked to go up for the sole purpose of 

14 picking it up? 

15 A Right. 

16 Q And getting it to the General? 

17 A Right. 

18 Q Secord? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q And you did do that? 

21 A And I did. 

22 Q Did you ever inquire as to why you were being 



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1 asked to do that as opposed to the General just going to the 

2 restaurant himself or whatever that place was? 

3 A They didn't want to wait until the banks were open 

4 for the next day. Obviously, I guess, they needed the money 

5 and he probably had more important things to do than go see 

6 — take a trip to New York. 

7 Q Did Ollie comment to you about why it was $9500? 
B A No. The general did. The General said it was 

9 $9500 so we would stay under the §10,000 limit for reporting 

10 of transfer of funds. 

11 Q Did he explain what he meant by that? 

12 A Uhen I was traveling and taking funds out of the 

13 country, and if I were ever bringing funds in, which I 

14 didn't, there is, I believe it's a banking law, where any 

15 expenditure or movement of funds over 910,000 or over must be 

16 reported to the IRS. I believe that was the reason. 

17 Q Are you talking about a Customs law? 

18 A Yes. But I think he felt it was true for any 

19 movement of $10,000 or more, so they didn't want to take that 

20 chance. 

21 Q Did you ever have any problems with Customs in all 

22 of your trips back and forth to Central America? 




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1 A No. 

2 Q Were you aware of any situations where Ollie used 

3 his influence as a White House staffer to help someone out 

4 with Customs problems? 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q When was that? 

7 A That was in, I believe it was the fall of 1986. I 

8 had a meeting with Mr. Rosenblatt of the U.S. Customs 

9 office. We were discussing something that was not relevant 

10 to the Iran issue, or really — the Contra issue. But he was 

11 concerned about an investigation that was going on regarding 

12 the — 

13 Q Who is "he"? 

14 A Mr. Rosenblatt was concerned about an 

15 investigation going on regarding the Mall aircraft which had 

16 been purchased by General Secord. He asked me to pass on, to 

17 Ollie, if I saw him or talked with him, this concern about 
10 this investigation. 

19 He was — 

20 Q Where was this meeting, by the way? 

21 A It was at the Customs building. 

22 Q Here in Washington? 



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1 A In Washington. 

2 Q Who 'asked you to go there? 

3 A I had had several conversations with one of his 

4 people in Colorado — excuse Be — yes, in Denver. 

5 Q One of Rosenblatt's people? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Who was that? 

8 A I can't remember his name right now -- Gary 

9 something. , 

10 Q All right. So go ahead. 

11 A This was regarding an incident that took place in 

12 Costa Rica where there was a mix up between DEA informants 

13 and Customs informants. Do you want me to go into it? IE 

14 it's relevant, fine. But — 

15 Q How does it relate to your activities in Central 

16 America? 

17 A I got a letter from John Hull in which he outlined 

18 a fairly strange incident that occurred on his farm, 

19 September or October, '86. You have a copy of the letter in 

20 your file somewhere. Actually it may have been — now that T 

21 think about it it may have been August. It probably was 

22 August, because I did take a trip down there in late August. 



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Q Yea. 

A I went to Colonel North with this letter that I 
had. It was an individual who was on John Hull's farm who 
was arrested and taken off of it. He, if I reaember 
correctly, later told Hull that he was working for U.S. 
Customs and he was concerned that the DEA^^^^^Hwas 
tarnished and that they may have been taking funds. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I t was a rather long, 
story and not necessarily relevant, but if you want me to go 
over it I'll refresh my memory. 

Q . I don't know if I want to go into it in this much 
depth on the record now. Maybe at a later time. Maybe we 
can talk about it off the record? 

A But there was a case where Mr. Rosenblatt just 
brought up the concern about the investigation that was going 
on. He was, I think, upset that people had not filed the 
necessary paperwork when they took the plane out of the 
country. 

Q What people was he referring to that he was 
concerned about? 

A It was General Secord. 



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1 Q Has General Secord aware of this? 

2 A I don't know. 

3 Q As far as you know? 

4 A I don't know. 

5 Q Uas it ever finally resolved? 

6 A I don't know that. 

7 Q Did you ever neet the president? 

8 A I shook his hand a couple of tiaes, back in 1983. 

9 Q How about since you were involved with Ollie? 

10 A No. 

11 Q How about the vice president? 

12 A No. 

13 Q How about Mr. HcFarlane? 

14 A No. 

15 Q How about Mr. Poindexter? 

16 A No. 

17 Q In your dealings with Ollie, initially during 

18 Mr. McFarlane's tenure as Natipnai Security Adviser, was it 

19 your impression that what Ollie was doing in the Central 

20 American area was being done with the knowledge and approval 

21 of Mr. McFarlane? 

22 A I was led to have that impression; yes. 



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Q By things Ollie vould say? 

A Yes. 

Q By any docuaents he'd show you? 

A No, not by docuaents he would show me. 

Q During that time period, were you under the 
impression that he had any superiors between hiaself and 
Mr. McFarlane, at the NSC? 

A I knew that he had people that he worked with and 
that he was supposed to report to. 

Q Can you think of who they aight have been? For 
exaaple, Poindexter? Has it your iapression that Poindexter 
was his superior, between Ollie and Mr. McFarlane during that 
tiae period? 

A His naae case up, but — no. I think with Central 
Aaerica the iapression I got, he was dealing directly with 
Mr. McFarlane and there was noone else. 

Q And it was your iapression that Mr. McFarlane was 
aware of what he was doing and was — 

MR. GREENEBAUM: You said no one else — you meant 
no one else in between? 



THE WITNESS: Yes. No one else in between, that I 



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1 BY MR. LEON: 

2 Q Okay. How about with respect to after, say, 

3 Deceaber of '85, when Mr. McFarlane resigned and 

4 Mr. Poindexter took over. Has it equally your impression 

5 fro« that point forward that Mr. Poindexter was aware of what 

6 Ollie was doing in Central America and was in favor of it? 

7 \ Yes. I knew that in the very beginning Ollie made 

8 a reference that there was sort of rocky going. There were 

9 some disagreements as to things that were being done. He 

10 didn't talk about any specifics. 

11 MR. LEON: Do you want to go off the record? 

12 MR. GREENEBAUM: Yes. 

13 (Discussion off the record.) 

14 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, 

15 please? 

16 MR. LEON: Sure. Absolutely. 

17 BY MR. LEON: 

18 Q After Mr. McFarlane resigned, Mr. Poindexter took 

19 over as the head of the NSC. From that point forward, was it 

20 your impression that, with respect to what Ollie was doing in 

21 Central America, and that which you were knowledgeable of and 

22 involved in, is it your impression that he was aware of that 



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1 — "he" being Mr. Poindexter — and had approved it? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And did you get that iapression froa anything — 

4 any other means, other than Ollie giving you that impression? 

5 A No. 

6 Q No documents that you saw? 

7 A No. 

8 Q No meetings with Mr. Poindexter that you attended? 

9 A No. 

10 Q And, as to that time period, did you have an 

11 impression that Ollie was reporting directly to 

12 Mr. Poindexter as to those things that you were knowledgeable 

13 of in the Central America area? 

14 A That was the impression that I got; yes. 

15 Q Now, I think you testified earlier, when I believe 

16 Neil was questioning you, about a meeting in summer of '86; 

17 between yourself and Ollie and General Secord, where the 

18 issue came up of Calero's continuing involvement in 

19 financing. Does that ring any bells? 

20 A There was a meeting I had with General Secord. It 

21 was not with Ollie. But there was a meeting. I think it may 

22 have been one or two times when I met with General Secord and 



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1 Ollie at the same time. 

2 Q With respect to that meeting, I think you 

3 testified that Secord recounted, in that meeting, a meeting 

4 he had had with the director of the Central Intelligence 

5 Agency, Director Casey? 

6 A Right. 

7 Q Let me try and focus you on that. Nhat is your 

8 recollection with regard to what it was that Secord described 

9 about his meeting with Director Casey? 

10 A I think it was a meeting where they discussed — 

11 can we go off the record for a second? 

12 MR. SMILJANICH: Yes. 

13 (Discussion off the record.) 

14 THE HITNBSS: To the best of ay knowledge, my 

15 recollection is that he had had a discussion — 

16 BY MR. LEON: 

17 Q He being who? 

18 A He, General Secord, brought up a discussion he had 

19 had with Director Casey about the assets that were presently 

20 in the operation, and I think I also heard from North at one 

21 time. They wanted to give them to the agency and the agency 

22 didn't want to take it. 



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1 I cannot remember whether it was a discussion oC 

2 selling them or giving them. I think it was more giving 

3 them, to the best oC my knowledge. 

4 I cannot remember when that was discussed. I know 

5 — I believe in March, 1986, there was a meeting which I 

6 think took place in Colonel North's office where General 

7 Secord mentioned a meeting with the director and was trying 

8 to get, possibly to ask for some help. 

9 Q Would that help have related to further 

10 intelligence with respect to weather information and troop 

11 placement? 

12 A Right. That was always a concern, especially 

13 among the pilots, when I would talk with them, whether I was 

either ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Kthat they 

15 always flying by the seat of their pants; there were never 

16 good prebriefs and never good intelligence or even weather 

17 information. 

18 Q Did General Secord relate to you his 

19 dissatisfaction with the amount and the kind of intelligence 

20 he was getting from Mr. Castilloj 

21 A No. The General, I don't think I can remember 



22 really relating something like that regarding 




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2 Q You don't recall? 

3 A No. I don't recall that. 

4 Q Did you have any occasioni^ during the tiae you 

5 were dealing with Ollie and the Central Aaerlca project, to 

6 review with him intelligence report« relating to funding and 

7 supplies by Coaaunist sources into Sandinistas? 

8 A No. Not with — excuse ae? Funding Coaaunist 

9 supplies to the Sandinistas? 

10 Q Right. 

11 A Nothing other than the inforaation that was being 

12 aade public. At one tiae we talked about — aentioning soae 

13 new deliveries that were coaing in to Nicaragua. 

14 Q Those had been helicopter deliveries? 

15 A Yes, I believe so. 

16 And on another occasion there was discussion that 

17 took place regarding an operation that they had hoped to 

18 aount which was to sink a ship inside — I believe it was the 

19 Rio Escondido, which would be going up to the Raaa Road. 

20 Q Has it your iapression that Ollie was 

21 knowledgeable and aware of increased Coaaunist support to the 

22 Sandinistas? 




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1 A Z would think that he would have been aware of 

2 anything that was going on down there. 

3 Q How about that specific type of itea? 

4 A Sure. Obviously, when he asked ae to take down 

5 the things that I took down in Noveaber, it certainly gave 

6 that iapression. 

7 Q Did you get the iapression that the PDN had 

8 intelligence sources that kept thea apprised of recent 

9 acquisitions of ailitary hardware and support of other kinds 

10 from either the Cubans or the Russians? 

11 A Adolfo Calero used to joke about, during the 

12 cutoff he would be asked by people what he was getting from 

13 the agency. He would say he got a lot of questions. 

14 Regarding that, I think that one of the tiaes that 

15 I took down information to the FDN, there were discussions of 

16 new BM-21 rocket launchers that were being aoved into the 

17 area, and it was just basic intelligence like that, so I 

18 think they had an idea of what was coaing in. 

19 Of course they also had a good idea of when the 

20 shells were coaing into the caaps . 

21 Q Was your life ever in danger? 

22 A There were soae tiaes I aight have been a little 



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concerned, but no, I don't think ao. 

MR. GREBNBBAUMi Don't be aodest. 
THB NITNBSSt I think at tiaea actually I waa 
probably sore endangered by the PDNa becauae of accidenta 
than I waa by Sandiniataa. 
BY MR. LEONi 
Q Did you attend a aeeting in Miaai in July of '85 
with reapect to the eatabliahaent of the aouthern front? 
A No. 

Q Here you aware that aeeting waa going to be held? 
A I knew, either before or after, a aeeting did take 
place where it waa diacuaaed. Throughout thia effort there 
waa a need, there waa a believed need to develop a aouthern 
front. Even though Adolfo Calero waa providing aoae funda to 
:o help develop it, it waa juat enough to keep 
people alive. There waan't any effort being aade to increaae 
the aouthern front. And that waa a concern that Colonel 
North had, and that I certainly had, and that othera had: If 
you are going to fight a war you have — really ahould have a 
three-front war in thia caae, or four-front war. And the 
aouthern front would be very iaportant to that. 

Q Hith respect to the San Jose accord, how involved 



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1 were you in the negotiations and conduct relating to that? 

2 A Leading up to to the San Jose accords, there had 

3 been a nuaber of meetings in Washington where a prograa was 

4 trying to be developed to bring aore positive public 

5 relations — I should say there was a public relations effort 

6 being talked about, to try and develop the support inside the 

7 United States and the world for the democratic resistance. 

8 I think the two documents you have are two papers 

9 that I did on the public relations effort that I thought 

10 should be mounted. As early as January discussions were 

11 being held of a way to bring a united front together. 

12 We brought in the opposition groups from — they 

13 were represented by Arturo Cruz, Alfonso Robelo and the FDN, 

14 and I went down there more as an observer to, if necessary, 

15 keep Colonel North involved about what was going on and see 

16 whatever ways I could be of help. 

17 Q Did the State Department play a role in that? 

18 A Could you be more specific, please? 

19 Q Were you aware of anyone from the State Department 

20 who was involved in the San Jose accord? The reaching of the 

21 accord? Negotiations that went into it? 

22 A No, other than Jonathan Miller was down there just 



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1 to provide InCoraatlon on it. 

2 Q Hhat was his position at that tiae, as £ar as you 

3 knew? 

4 A He was with the Latin — office of Latin Aaerican 

5 Office of Public Diploaacy, I believe, fiut, no, I think that 

6 Buch of this was — the Nicaraguans theaselves, it had been 

7 pounded into their heads over and over again that they needed 

8 to have a united front. 

9 Q What was the relationship as far as you could see 

10 between Chris Halker and Ollie witft regard to the — Chris 

11 Arcos, excuse ae — with regard to the NHAO prograa? 

12 A I knew that Chris knew Ollie and he aay have 

13 talked with hia occasionally, but Chris followed the chain of 

14 coaaand, and obviously Aabassador Duealing was his direct 

15 superior. I think, there was a concern on all of our parts 

16 that the prograa was probably not being run satisfactorily, 

17 and also the situation with ^^^^^^^^^was very tenuous 
IB Chris had excellent relations with 

19 Q Here you aware that Arcos — do you know Bill 

20 Halker? 

21 A I never aet hia. I know who he is. 

22 Q Froa Mr. Abraas ' office? 




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A Right. 

Q Are you aware that Areos and Walker used to have 
■eetingi regularly with Ollie? 

A I knew they would talk occasionally, yes. 

Q I aean weekly, soaetiaes two tiaes a week? 

A No. 

Q Breakfast aeetings as well as workday aeetings? 

A As I said, I knew that there were aeetings that 
were taking place. I didn't know the frequency of thea. 

Q Do you have any reason to believe they concerned 
anything besides the conducting of the NHAO prograa? 

A The only other thing that it possibly would 
concern would be our relations. United States relations with 
[and possibly other countries. 

Q Did you get the iapresslon that Ollie dealt with 
Arcos as an alternative with dealing with Ouealing? 

A There was a — I think Aabassador Duealing and 
Colonel North had soae differences and so he aay have felt 
aore coafortable working with Chris Arcos. 

Q Did you get the iapression that Chris Arcos was 
taking soae, on a periodic basis, taking soae orders froa 
North and he wasn't reporting to Duealing? 



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1 A No, I didn't get that iapression. I think he 

2 probably talked with Ambassador Duelling about most 

3 everything. I'm not sure that Ambassador Duemling knew these 

4 meetings were taking place, but I don't think he was 

5 necessarily taking orders from Colonel North. 

6 Q Did you ever learn from Chris Arcos or Ollie North 

7 or anyone else that Chris Arcos had been visited at the State 

8 Department by people in early 1986, complaining about Gadd, 

9 Secord and the possible involvement of Tom Cline in the 

10 conducting of th«ir NHAO flights? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Who told you about it? 

13 A Chris told me. 

14 Q Chris told you? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Has Ollie present? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Why did Chris tell you? 

19 A He knew that I knew these people and also knew 

20 that I was close to Ollie. And these people had come in with 

21 a concern that there was mismanagement and perhaps money was 

22 not being spent right. I think, also, they had a concern 



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1 that they weren't part of the action. 

2 Q Did Chris 'express any concern to you on his part 

3 that there were people involved here in the for« of Cline's 

4 people who might be defrauding the governaent? 

5 AX can't remesber Cline's name being brought up, 

6 but certainly Gadd, Secord and — 

7 Q How about the naae Hilson? 

8 A No, I don't believe his naae was brought up. 

9 Q Did Arcos tell you that these people warned him 

10 that Ollie could get in trouble by associating -- having 

11 anything to do with these people? 

12 A yes. 

13 Q Did you provide hia with any information to all ay 

14 his fears in that regard? 

15 A To allay Arcos' fears? 

16 Q yes. 

17 A No. 

18 Q Did you give hia any opinion that you didn't think 

19 anyone was being defrauded? 

20 A No. I just said that — the only thing I can 

21 think I would have said is it's a problea that a lot of 

22 people are concerned about. 



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1 Q But you were on the scene? 

2 A Right. By "on the scene" -- 

3 Q You were down there. He wasn't, Arcos wasn't. 

4 A Right. Right. 

5 Q Did you relay to hia the impression that you 

6 didn't think that the State Departaent was getting ripped off 

7 at that point? 

8 A Yes. Cline's naae really didn't cone up because 

9 he wasn't involved with NHAO that I know of. 

10 There was -- there were concerns that had been 

11 voiced to He by Hario Calero and others about Gadd and 

12 certainly about General Secord, and 1 had had a conversation 

13 with, I think soae of the — at least one of the people who 

14 had gone in to see Arcos, where they voiced the same thing. 

15 It was about this tiae that I also wrote the aeao 

16 to Colonel North which was, I think dated, now, March 26th, 

17 in which I brought up Toa Cline's naae and General Secord 's 

18 naaes and those concerns . 

19 Q And do you have any knowledge as to whether Arcos 

20 discussed those concerns with Ollie hiaself? 

21 A I would imagine he probably brought them up, but I 

22 don't know for sure. I never asked, or he may have told me 



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1 and I forgot. 

2 Q Do you have any knowledge whether Duealing did? 

3 & I think Aabassador Ouealing was always suspect oC 

4 just about everything, and I don't really know whether Chris 

5 really discussed it with hia or not. 

6 Q I think Terry asked you a question about giving 

7 . aoney to Robelo on one occasion — two occasions, I think 

8 they were, for expenses when he was here in Hashington. 

9 & Right. 

10 Q On those occasions when you gave hia aoney for 

11 expenses, on either of those occasions was there any question 

12 in your aind as to the propriety of giving aoney that was 

13 being raised froa private individuals to help a cause in 

14 Central Aaerica, to having one of their leaders stay here in 

15 town at a hotel and whatever other expenses he had here in 

16 town? 

17 A I think I can answer that by a little vignette. 
One the that^^^^^^^^^^^Bwas up in 

19 '85 — it wasn't the first tiae he had been here but it was 

20 right after, I think, UNO had been fioraed or the San Jose 

21 accords had been foraed. He even voiced concerns: "Should I 

22 be staying at a place such as the Marbury House? Does it 



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1 look like it's too ritzy?" Compare that with Calero who was 

2 always staying at the Hay Adams or the Sheraton Carlton. 

3 There was a difEerence in that, but I think these people's 

4 expenses had to be taken care o£, so I didn't see any 

5 impropriety in that. 

€ I'm going to go back to something that we had 

7 talked about that Tom had asked. I bring this up because I 

8 thought about what you were asking regarding the 

9 Honey-Avignone issue. 

10 This is regardless of the lawsuit, in that there 

11 was always a concern that they may have been agents of the 

12 other side, if not active, at least passive. And I think 

13 that at one point it was brought up that a 

14 counterintelligence operation should be mounted against them 

15 because of this possibility. But a decision was made — my 

16 understanding at the highest levels — not to undertake 

17 that. 

18 BY MR. SHILJANICH: 

19 Q What do you mean the highest levels? 

20 A From my knowledge, to mount a counterintelligence 

21 program against an American citizen, it has to be agreed to 

22 by the director of the Central Intelligence Agency and the 



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1 Attorney General . 

2 Q W\o told you that this decision had been aade at 

3 the hi(;hest levels? 

4 . . A It was voiced to ae on at least one occasion by, I 

by the^^^l^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^and 

6 then the ambassador aay have said soaething to that effect. 

7 Q Aabassador Taabs? 

8 A Yes. It was felt there was enough circumstantial 

9 evidence that could be undei'taken, but perhaps because there 

10 were reporters or perhaps because they were involved in a 

11 lawsuit, the decision was aade not to do this. 

12 Q What was the genesis of this idea? Mho was the 

13 genesis of the idea? 

14 A I think it was — I 'a not sure that I know who the 

15 genesis of it was. But, it was just a concern and it had 

16 been voiced by a nuaber of people that they were working for 

17 the other side and perhaps providing either a disinforaation 

18 prograa or aisinforaation prograa or active intelligence to 

19 the other side. 

20 HR. SMILJANICH: Thank you. 

21 MR. LEON: I don't have anything aore. 

22 MR. EGGLESTON: Are you done? I have, now that — 




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1 I just have a real quick little area. 

2 BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

3 Q In August of 1986, Colonel North met with 

4 representatives of the House Select Coaait on Intelligence. 

5 A Yes . 

6 Q Did you know he was going to do that? 

7 A I knew that a resolution, I believe, had been 

8 passed which named specifically General Singlaub, John Hull, 

9 and myself. 

10 I later learned that he did meet with them in 

11 August. I asked him what he said about his knowledge of me 

12 and he said — I told them that yes, I knew, had met you on 

13 occasion, but — I believe he said you did not work for me or 

14 something to that effect, but he knew I was involved in 

15 helping the resistance. I can't really remember what it was 

16 that he said, but he did mention that he was asked about me. 

17 Q Did he indicate to you whether he had — he 

18 believed he had been truthful or untruthful before the 

19 Committee about his relationship with you? 

20 A He didn't really say. It was just in passing. He 

21 said: Yes, I was asked about you and I said yes, I met you 

22 on a couple of occasions. He didn't go into any great depth. 



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1 nor do I think he went back in his calendar to see how aany 

2 times I had been in to see him. 

3 Q I take it -- maybe this is conclusory — I take 

4 it, though, if he had told them he met you on a couple of 

5 occasions, that would have been an independent estimation of 

6 how many times he met you? 

7 A Yes. There were times not only on his calendar we 

8 met, but there were times we met outside of the building just 

9 so I won't keep showing up on the computer all the time. 

10 Q Did he indicate whether or not he had been asked 

11 about whether he was involved with you in supplying the 

12 Contras? 

13 A He didn't indicate one way or the other. 

14 Q Do you remember anything else he said to you 

15 afterwards about the meeting? 

16 A No. By that time the meetings that I would have 

17 with him were — usually few and infrequent. He was a busy 

18 man and I didn't want to take up a lot of his time. 

19 Q Okay. In the summer -- well, let me ask one more 

20 on that line. 

21 Before he had the meeting with the members, did he 

22 talk to you about how he would respond to the question? 



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1 A I brought it up to hia once. I believe the 

2 iieasure was passed in June. I can't remember. But I believe 

3 I brought it up with him once and asked him how he was going 

4 to respond to it? He said: Well, I don't know. Maybe I 

5 won't have to respond to it. 

6 Q But that's the only question or only conversation 

7 you recall with him about how he would respond to the 

8 resolution of inquiry? 

9 A Yes. We never talked about it, laid out a plan 

10 what he should say or shouldn't say; no. 

11 Q The summer of '85 he was — it was a similar, 

12 although it was not pursuant to a resolution of inquiry, 

13 there was a similar investigation into his activities. Did 

14 you ever speak to him about that? 

15 A Yes. On several occasions he had a concern for 

16 these investigations, and I think there was at least two or 

17 three times when he felt that he was going to, potentially, 

18 be out the door, and leave the NHC. But he seemed to have 

19 been a cat with nine lives and continued to survive. 

20 Q Did he ever tell you about about any attempts to 

21 alter documents? 

22 A No. 



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1 Q Or reaove docuaents froa the official systea? 

2 A No. The only conversation we had about docuaents 

3 was the one tiae I asked hia about what happened to aine? He 

4 told ae they were in a safe place; and obviously they were. 

5 You have thea all. 

6 Q That's right. He kept thea in his safes. 

7 I don't have anything. 

8 MR. LEON: I just want to follow up a couple o£ 

9 questions on the last point you just aade. 

10 BY MR. LEON: 

11 Q Did he recount to you a aeeting with McParlane 

12 with respect to certain docuaents that McFarlane was troubled 

13 about, as to his, Ollie's, involveaent in Central Aaerica? 

14 Did he ever recount a aeeting to you about that? 

15 A No, not at this tiae. I don't reaeaber that. 
1€ Q Do you recall hia ever telling you how he 

17 explained to McFarlane his involveaent with respect — 

18 McFarlane 's difficulties with what he was doing? 

19 A No. I was always under the assuaption that 

20 Mr. McFarlane knew what it was that he was doing and we were 

21 all working under the aegis, although not being U.S. 

22 Governaent eaployees, but at the behest of the United States 



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1 Government. He once likened it to one of FDR's 

2 representatives who was a private citizen yet did things in a 

3 private way for the president. 

4 Q Diploaat without portfolio? 

5 A Yes, not being a representative of the United 

6 States Governaent. 

7 MR. EGGLESTON; I have nothing further. 

8 HR. SMILJANICH: No. 

9 HS. DORNAN: I just have soae questions. 

10 BY MS. DORNAN: 

11 Q Could you give us your own assessment of both 

12 Secord and the NHAO operations in Central America? 

13 A Let «e go with the NHAO operation first. I don't 

14 think Congress could have put together a worse package. On 

15 one hand, it's like giving someone the keys to a Cadillac and 

16 then saying don't drive it, in that there was plenty of 

17 opportunity with the way it was going to be managed for 

18 sisuse of funds. 

19 I brought this up to Ambassador Duemling and to 

20 Colonel North, because there was no way to verify the 

21 expenses. 

22 One of the things that I suggested was that you 




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1 put people in Central Aaerica or set up bank accounts, and 

2 have someone down there who would be writing the checks, or 

3 have, in essence, bean counters, to ensure that the funds 

4 were properly spent and not aisspent. The way it was 

5 structured there was plenty of latitude for people to ■isuse 

6 it. And then to have Congress turn around and say the aoney 

7 was aisused is as auch Congress' fault as anyone else's 

8 fault. 

9 As far as General Secord, the tiaes I aet hia he 

10 was always cordial and direct. I would like to relay a story 

11 that I had, or a aeeting I had with Colonel North in which I 

12 brought up the concerns that had been voiced about General 

13 Secord and Colonel North's coaaents was: "The aan is a great 

14 Aaerican. He's not aaking any aoney off of this. He is 

15 serving his country, and when the story coaes out as far as 

16 what his coaaitaent has been, I think that he will be looked 

17 upon as both an honorable aan and a patriot." 
le BY MR. LEONi 

19 Q Did you ever see any evidence to indicate he was 

20 Baking money on the side or taking aoney? 

21 A No. There was — I 'a not sure who was — let ae 

22 rephrase that. 



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1 Those involved in this Nicaraguan operation seemed 

2 to enjoy Machiavellian politics, lies, deceit, and scurrilous 

3 rumor, and there's a nuaber oC people that spread those types 

4 of ruaors that General Secord, Oliver North and others were 

5 aaicing aoney out of this operation. 

6 Q you never saw any evidence to indicate that? 

7 A No, but plenty of people brought it up. 

8 Do you want to ask ne what I think about the 

9 operation itself? 

10 MS. DORNAN: Yes. 

11 MR. LEON: Tfes. 

12 THE WITNESS : Save it for the cables. 

13 MR. SMILJANICH: If there's no aore, then I guess 

14 that concludes the deposition. 

15 MR. EGGLESTON; I would like to go over sdae stutJ; 

16 with hia but — 

17 MR. HYLDEN: We are off the record, then? 

18 MR. LEON: He are off. 

19 (Discussion off the record.) 

20 • (Whereupon, at 6:40 p. a., the deposition was 

21 concluded.) 
22 



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undef provisions of E 12356 ■ 

by K Johnson. National Swunly Council 4 



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DEPOSITION OF ROBERT OWEN 



Thursday, October 1, 1987 



U.S. House of Representatives, 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert 
Arms Transactions with Iran, 

Washington, D.C. 



The deposition convened at 10:37 a.m., in Room 2154, 
Rayburn House 0££ice Building. 

Present: Ken Ballen, Staff Counsel; Pam Naughton, 
Staff Counsel; Bob Bermingheun, Investigator; and Richard Leon 
Deputy Minority Counsel. 

Also present: Tom Hylden, Sachs, Greenebaum & Tayler, 
on behalf of the witness. 



Partially Declassified/Released on_^_!~A*^ ° ° 
under provisions ot E 12356 
by K Jotmson. National S«cunty Council 



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Whereupon 

ROBERT OWEN 
was called as a witness, and after having been first duly 
sworn, was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. BALLEN: 
Q Mr. Owen, you were previously under subpoena to 
the House Committee as well as the Senate Committee. Your 
appearance here today is pursuant to that continuing 
subpoena, and you were previously ordered by the Chairman 
of the House Coitmittee, Lee Hamilton, to testify, and he 
communicated to you an immunity order issued by the District 
Court in the District of Columbia, and all your answers 
today are under that compulsion and continuing immunity 
order. 

This should be our last proceeding under that. 
MR. HYLDEN: With that understanding, he will 
answer your questions. 

BY MR. BALLEN: 
Q As I explained to your lawyer earlier, I have some 
general areas to ask you about that perhaps we didn't inquire 
into fully before, and we are interested in gaining your 
knowledge on those issues to supplement the record. 
A I will do my best. 



Thank you. 



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1 The first area and/or person that I would like to 

2 ask you about is John Hull. Let me ask you a series of 

3 questions. 

4 When did you first meet John Hull? 

5 A I believe in June or July 198 3 he came into Senator 

6 Quayle ' s office. He was a resident of Indiana. He con- 

7 sidered Quayle his Senator. He came to discuss what was 

3 going on in Central America, he had with him a Nicaraguan and 
g two other Americans. 

fQ While he was in the office, he started talking 

]] about what was going on. I felt it was important that others 
f2 listen to him and set up appointments with others on the 
Hill and one with Ollie North. 
Q When was that? 
A Summer of 198 3. 

Q Did you accompany him to visit North? _^ 

A Yes, 1 did. 

Q What was in general the topic of discussion? 
A It was the first time they had met. I got the 
feeling that Ollie must have done background on who he was 
before. It was a friendly gathering discussing the Southern 
Front. The Nicaraguan, a fellow by the name of 
did most of the talking because he had been one of Eden 
Pastora's commanders and had just come out of the field the 
past week. 




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Ollie was interested in knowing what the morale 
of the troops was, whether they were getting supplies. 

Q What was his involvement? How did he know this 
information? 

A How did Hull know the information? 
Q Yes. 

MR. HYLDEN: How did Hull know the information 
that^^^^^was conveying? 

THE WITNESS: The Nicaraguan was conv eying this. 
John was more — I think Eden paid for^^^^^Ktrip here and 
wanted him to go around and talk to as many people as 
possible. 

John may have talked about his observations, but it 
was nothing specific that I can remember, 




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At that time, I was with Gray & Company, a private 
citizen. I had taken time off from Gray & Company. We had 
been approached by the FDN. 

He said, "Why don't you take a trip there," and I 
did. 

Q From summer 1984 on, what were your contacts with 
John Hull? Did they continue? 

A Sure. Most every time I was in Costa Rica I would 
see him. I would drive out to his farm or he would be in town 
and meet me . 

In October, I set up a meeting between him and 
Adolfo Calero where it was decided Adolfo would provide 
$10,000 a month for humanitarian assistance. 
Q What was he to do for that? 
A Provide the troops food, medicines — 
Q This would be the Southern Front? 
A Yes. 

MS. NAUGHTON: October of what year?* 
THE WITNESS: 1984. 

MS. NAUGHTON: How long did this payment of 
$10,000 last? 

THE WITNESS: I think it went through September of 
1985. I am not sure. Hull kept meticulous records that he 
would pass on to Calero and usually give me copies and 




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occasionally I would give copies to Ollie. 
BY MR. BALLEN: 

Q Did Hull perform any other role of assistance 
to the Southern Front? How did he distribute the money? 

A There was a concern if money was being given 
directly to people, it might end up in pockets. One of his 
people would buy the food, the boots or clothing and then 
they would send it up to the border or wherever it was 
supposed to go. 

Q Was this an operation that Colonel North had 
approved of? 

A Actually, it wasn't until I think after it 
happened that Ollie even knew John was getting $10,000 a 
month from Calero. 

At some point, I told him and he said that was news 
to him because I hadn't talked to him about it, and I don't 
think Calero did either. 

It was decided between Cale ro and Hull and there 
was another Nicaraguar 




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2 I So Hull kind of acted as a coordinator in trying 

3 to help them get the subsistence. 

4 Q Was he involved in any military assistance or 

5 advice for the forces at that time -- when I say at that time, 
g I am talking October 1984 to September 1985? 
•J A There was really very little military action going 

a on at the time. There were five or four people who ended up 

Q going down there, two Brits, a Frenchman, and two Americans. 
Q Do you recall their names? 



A Steven Carr, an American; Peter Glibbery, British; 
John Davies, British; Claude MOMbM, French; and Robert 



10 
11 

12 

f3 Thompson 

Hull was the type of person who attracts every 
kind of conceivable individual you can imagine. Somehow his 
name is well known in Costa Rica. 

Many people would show up on his farm. 
Q Where exactly is his farm? 

A In a town called Muella, about 30 minutes outside 
of Quesada and roughly 2-1/2 hours from San Jose. 

Q How far is it from the Nicaraguan border? 
A As the crow flies, maybe 30 kilometers, maybe 
less. I am not really sure. He also managed other property 
up near the border, closer to the border. 

Q In any event, you were saying he attracted these 



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people. 



2 A Hull was in Miami in March of 1985, I believe, and 

3 Glibbery and Davies and maybe even Chafaurd , I am not sure, 
^ ended up flying down with Hull, and I think Hull bought 

e Glibbery 's ticket because he didn't have enough money, 
g These guys had been recommended to Hull by — 

. somehow they got connected with Bruce Jones and Tom Posey, 

I think, and I think they had some idea that they were going 
to be able to be training or provide some training to the 
resistance. --" 

They weren't military people, although I think 
Glibbery and Davies ^0 had some military background. 

Eventually they ended up all getting arrested on the 
border and they were not on Hull's property, they were on 
someone else's property at the time. 

I understand they had been involved in at least 
one incursion in Nicaragua, soroe-of them. They were thrown 
in jail. I think after about a Jear they were let out on 
bond and 1 think Hull put up the-.money for the bond. 



Davies, Thompson, and Carr all went over the border 
to Panama and ended up fleeing the country. OH^BI and 



Glibbery stood trial and are presently serving five years in 
jail in Costa Rica. -i 

Q You say they had planned — some of them had 
participated in one incursion and they had planned to engage 



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1 in military training and other action. 

2 Did you talk to Colonel North about any of this? 

3 A No. I mean these guys — there was no reason 

4 for me to talk to him about it. He had too many other 

5 things on his mind and this was something that I don't think 
e was taken very seriously by any of us. 

•J There were guys who wanted to go down — 

g Q How about Tom Posey? You mentioned him. 
g A I gave Ollie — 

MR. HYLDEN: What about him? 

BY MR. BALLEN: 

What discussions., if any, did you have with Colonel 



13 North concerning Tom Posey? 



A At one point I gave Ollie a list of the things that 
Posey had passed on to me that he said he had sent down to the 
FDN, because that is who he was basically working with. 

One of the things I ended up doing from time to 
time was sort of keeping Ollie informed about what these 
various soldiers of fortune, if you will, were doing. 

One of the people being Jack Terrell, because there 
was a tremendous concern about him, and everyone, Calero, 
Hull, North, me and others were all concerned that, one, 
Posey kept talking about why didn't they have trainers there 
who were eventually going into operations, and no one wanted 
an American there who was going to get killed like happened 



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f with the two that were on the helicopter that was shot down. 

2 That would be just unacceptable. 

3 So I tried to in some way guide Posey to tell him 

4 you don't need to send people there. If you want to send 

5 supplies, that is fine, but don't be talking about sending 
g a lot of people there for training. 

7 Posey called me to try to keep me informed of what 

3 he was doing. I never told him that I worked for North. He 
9 knew that I worked closely with Calero. Posey was working 
fQ by and large with Mario, Calero 's brother, and he kept trying 
to find out where CMA stood in all this, so he used me as a 
sounding board, if you will. 

I think the first time I met with Tom was 
January 1985 in Miami and then he was up here in Washington. 

Q What were the circumstances of that meeting in 
January 1985? 

A In Miami? 
Q Yes. 

A I am not sure how it ceune about, but there were 
a couple of meetings. Some took place at the Howard Johnson's, 
contra discounts, near the airport and there was a meeting 
that took place at Calero 's home. 

Tom Posey was there. Jack Terrell, Colonel Flacko, 
a fellow by the name of Joe Adams, I was there, Hull was 
there, Calero was there, Frank Chanis was there. There may 



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have been a couple others. 

Q What was the substance of the discussion? 

A The substance of it was to try — Posey wanted to 
find out what he could do with the Southern Front and Hull 
was there and Calero had chosen Hull to be in essence the 
coordinator. 

We were supposed to discuss the Southern Front, 



" but what ended up happening was Jack Terrell started talking 
^ about arms and munitions that the '■■■■ jilmj ca had! 



.they wanted to sell to Calero and 
the Indians had given Terrell a letter saying that he was 
their representative. 

So a lot of the meeting was to discuss that and 
there were never any substantive discussions that came out of 
that that I can remember. 

Jack Terrell said in a newspaper article there was . 
discussion of assassinating Eden Pastora again. To my 
knowledge, that never took place. That was a pure lie. 

In the meetings in the hotel in the Howard Johnson's 

20 Posey kept trying to talk about how they could help the 

21 Southern Front. 

22 Hull may have finally said if you want to send some 

23 people to look at what is going on down there, fine; I will be 

24 happy to show them around. 

25 EventualLv I think Posey and Terrell may have gone 



ilLv I think Posey and Te 

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1 dovm to Costa Rica, I can't remember, but someone did go 

2 down. They looked around and nothing substantive came of it. 

3 That is how the five guys ended up going there. 

4 Claude CMiiid0 had been working with the FDN. 

5 Q From the fall of 1985 until the fall of 1986, 

g what activities, if any, did John Hull engage in in support 

y of the Nicaraguan resistance? 

g A Really very little. At that time he was working — 

g part of the time I was working with NHAO. Usually when I 
was in Costa Rica, I would end up seeing him or talk to him 
on the phone, but he didn't really help NHAO at all. He would 



12 constantly have Micaraguans coming into his farm asking for 



help, Indians would come in and ask for help, but he didn't 



|. really play any substantive role. 



Did h« play a role in the resupply operation in 
terms of aiding the southern forces? 

A Not really, because that was a separate vehicle 
set up. He was so tainted by then as far as being a public 
figure that th«r« was no reason to try and involve him in it. 

Q was that a conscious decision that you had 
discussed with Oliver North or not? 

A No, it was just common sense. 

Q It was not something that anyone decided or 
discussed? 

A There was really no role for him to play because 



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Q He was receiving $10,000 a month from Adolfo Calero 

from approximately October 1984 — 

A Probably more November or December. 

Q Until the fall of 1985 sometime? 

A Right. 

Q What caused that to stop? 

A One, Calero was running out of money. NHAO had 
come on to line so there was no reason to provide money to do 
things that NHAO was going to do, so there was no reason for 
it to continue. 

To the best of my knowledge, all the money that 
Hull got went specifically towards humanitarian goods and 
services. He didn't make any money out of this. 

Throughout this whole thing, he lost money in every 
way conceivable. 

Q So, in other words, once NHAO money started coming 
in, there was no need for this money being channeled? 

A Yes, plus Calero was running out of money. 

Q Do you know an individual by the name of Joseph 
Kelso, aka Richard Williams? 

A No. I got a letter from Hull in summer of 1986, 
which I have, and it was a very disjointed letter. Before I 



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f ever talked to Ollie, Kelso had said that he was working for 

2 Customs out of Denver. 

3 Q How did you learn this? 

4 A It was in the letter. If you have a copy of the 

5 letter, I could sort of explain it to you. I ended up calling 
g Customs in Denver and asking for — 

7 MS. NAUGHTON: Can we start at the beginning? 

g As far as Kelso, did you first get the letter from Hull or 
g did you first meet Mr. Kelso? 

THE WITNESS: I never met Mr. Kelso. 
MS. NAUGHTON: So the first you heard of Kelso wa-s 
the letter? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Did he refer to him as Keiso or 
with another name? 

THE WITNESS: Actually, there were two names, and 
I can't remember the other name right now. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Does the name Williams ring a bell? 
THE WITNESS: Yes, Richard Williams. 
MR. HYLDEN: Do you have the letter? 
MR. BALLEN: I don't have it. 
MS. NAUGHTON: I do not. 

THE WITNESS: You have a copy of the letter, though? 
MR. HYLDEN: It was in the documents that we turned 
over to you. 



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MR. LEON: You don't recall if it was an exhibit 
at the hearing? 

THE WITNESS: It didn't become an exhibit. We 
probably have a copy somewhere if you need it. It is sort of 
a long, involved story. I ended up calling Customs at 
Denver — 

MS. NAUGHTON: Wait a minute. What prompted you 
to do that? What was in the letter that prompted you to do 
that? 

THE WITNESS: Hull was concerned — within the 
letter, there was a concern that DEA, the Drug Enforcement 
Agency people^^^^^^^^^^H were taking money for looking 
the other way in narcotics trafficking. The story — 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Was that Mr. Hull's concern? 

A No, that was Kelso's concern. 

Q What was Mr. Hull's concern about Mr. Kelso 
saying that? 

A He had this guy show up at his farm. He was 
brought in by a doctor, someone that Hull knew and trusted. 
This guy came in and said, "Look, I have been told that you 
are the one guy I should contact. There is a real problem 
here. I think the DEA people are trying to kill me. I am 
convinced that they were involved in narcotics trafficking 
and looking the other way. And I don't know who else to turn 



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1 to." While Kelso was there at some point I believe Hull 

2 called, I don't know whether it was the civil guard or the 

3 rural guard — I haven't read the letter in a long time — 

4 anyway, people from the Intelligence Service of the Government 

5 of Costa Rica showed up. Then a major showed up and they 
g pulled Kelso out of the room where he was sleeping. 

7 All he had on was underwear. Shots were fired 

g and he was taken away in a car. 

g Q Do you know why Mr. Hull called the Intelligence 
IQ Service? 

]f A I think there was concern on his part as to who 
f2 this guy was and what was going on. Hull is weary of people 
talking about narcotics because people have tried to label 
him as being involved in narcotics trafficking. 

To my knowledge over the four years that I knew 
him, there was absolutely no truth to that whatsoever. So 
I think he was concerned. 

The guy was hustled off. A couple days later Hull 
gets a call from Kelso saying, "Meet me at the airport. 
I am about to be thrown out of the country." 

At that time, I think Kelso tells him his real 
name is Williams or vice versa. He said previously he had 
been in Egypt and brought back over to Costa Rica. It was 
very bizarre. 

One of the concerns was that, one, DEA was involved 



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f with trafficking in drugs, that Hull was concerned about 

2 that. 

3 He was concerned cibout whether he was being set up 

4 by someone. I think those were the two major concerns. 

5 So out of curiosity, I took it upon myself before 
S I talked to North to call Customs in Colorado and ask if 

7 Mr. Kelso was there. 

g A special agent said he is not here. 

9 MR. BALLEN: How did you know to call Customs in 

Colorado? 

THE WITNESS: Because Kelso had told Hull he was 



^2 working for Customs in Colorado. It was in the letter. 



I hadn't talked to Hull on this. I just had the letter, 



,^ BY MS. NAUGHTON; 



Q When you called, who did you tell them you were? 

A I told them I was a private citizen, Rob Owen. 

Q Is that the first name you used? 

A I said I was trying to get in touch with him on 
behalf of Mr. Hull. I used Hull's name. 

Q When you used Hull's name, did you pretend to be 
Mr. Hull? 

A I can't remember. Maybe that was the first phone 
call. Then I called him back and said what "jiy fiame was. 
MR. BALLEN: You called him out of curiosity? 



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1 THE WITNESS: Yes. They have a special agent who 

2 comes back to Washington and I either talked with him on the 

3 phone or I met him. 

4 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

5 Q Who was that? 

6 A It was not a special agent. It was someone from 

7 the U.S. Attorney's Office, a guy named Blackford or Black. 
6 Q You met with him? 

9 A I don't think I met with him. I talked to him on 

10 the phone. 

11 Q That was after your initial phone call to Customs? 

12 A Right. 

13 Q Do you recall how long after that first call to 

14 Customs? 

)5 A Right. 

jg Q Do you recall how long after that first call to 

17 Customs? 

A Within a couple of days. He was coming back here 
anyway. The whole thing was kind of screwy. 

MR. BALLEN: What was the substance of the 



21 conversation? 

THE WITNESS: I must have met the guy, maybe I 



even gave him a copy of the letter. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Mr. Black? 



"iKOTEO 



808 



m^imm 



21 



1 A It is something Black. At least I think it is 

2 something Black. 

3 Q You think you gave him a copy of the Hull letter? 

4 A I think. I don't remember. You would have to get 

5 in touch with him. This is sort of an offshoot of all this. 

6 If I could briefly say, eventually I went in to talk to North 

7 and gave him a copy of the letter emd said "I am concerned 

8 because I don't know whether Hull is being set up, whether 

9 there is a problem with the DEA or what is going on." 

10 He had had within a day or two before that a letter 

ft that came across his desk that was signed by, I believe it . 

12 ^as the head of presidential security for Costa Rica, a fellow 

13 '^y the name of — actually, it may even have been signed by 

14 Oscar Arias — I don't remember — but it said that Mr. Kelso, 

15 and he named a Customs agent in New Orleans, had been involved 
1g in stopping a potential assassination attempt on President 

Arias. 

And the reason that the name flashed across North 
is because this letter had come across his desk regarding 
Central America and regarding Costa Rica, so it flipped in 
the back of his mind, Kelso. 

So it was all a bit bizarre, and anyway I ended up 
taking a trip down to Costa Rica. One of the reasons there 
was a concern, somehow — I don't want to get involved in 
this because it brings in Honey and Avirgan — 



UNCUmiED 



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mfmm 



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^ MR. HYLDEN: Why don't we go off the record and 

2 you and I talk for a second. 
2 [Pause in the proceedings.) 

^ MR. BALLEN: Back on the record, 

2 BY MR. BALLEN: 

e Q Back to Mr. Kelso. 

J You testified that you called out to Customs in 

Denver; is that correct? 
A Right. 

Did you ask whether or not Kelso was acting as an 
agent, a U.S. agent for Customs? 

A Basically I was . — I think the call went something 
liXe this. 

MR. HYLDENi Before you answer that question, 
Mr. Owen, let me ask you whether your call to CustcHos in 
Colorado was part of an investigation being performed by you 
in connection with the defense of a civil suit pending against 
you in Miami? 

THE WITNESS: At that time X would have to say no, 
because I didn't know there might have been a connection. 
MR. HYLDEN: Then you may ansvrar the question. 
THE WITNESS: I said I was trying to get in touch 
with Mr. Kelso, I gave the name John Bull, that he had 
recently been in Costa Rica. I was trying to track him down. 
I think this might have been on a Friday and I think the gist 



»mM!i 



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23 



. of it was why don't you call back either tomorrow, if it was 

2 a Thursday, or Monday — I don't remenvber the date. 

3 I called back and talked to a Customs special 

4 agent and he was curious as to how I knew about Kelso and 
so forth. 

e I said that I had a friend in Costa Rica, but this 

•J time I gave him my name, I believe. He said, "Well, we have 
a a U.S. Attorney who is presently investigating Mr. Kelso, 
a we would like him to talk with you." 

At this point, if memory serves me right, and I 
can't say explicitly, I went to Ollie North and talked with 
12 him and gave him a copy of. the letter. 
BY MR. BALLEN: 
Q The letter from John Hull? 

A Yes. I said there is obviously something screwy 
here. I am a little concerned about it. Do you know anything 
about it? 

He at that time brought up a letter that he had 
received from the Office of the President of Costa Rica 
and I think it was under — it may have been under Alex 
MacNaulty's signature, but on the President Arias stationery, 
or it was signed by President Oscar Arias and had MacNaulty's 
name in it. 

I said this is screwy. I said I eun concerned. 
I don't know whether Honey apd Avirgan are behind this. We 



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, don't know where this is going. 

2 I ended up talking to a separate lawyer other than 

3 my present counsel and the decision was made that I go down 

4 there because of the concern about the lawsuit. 

5 Q When you spoke to Customs and the U.S. Attorney in 
g Colorado, did you ask whether or not Kelso was an agent for 
■J Customs or the United States Government? 

A I think I probably did. 



Q What response? 



A The response was — I can't remember what the 



Ij response was. Eventually — no one was sure whether he was an 



agent or he wasn't an agent. As I said, truth is stranger 
than fiction, and this is one of those stranger stories. 

Q So you don't recall at that time whether you were 
told ~ 

A At that time. Eventually I learned that at one 
time he was. 

Q Subsequent to your call to Customs in Colorado, 
did you speak to any agent of Customs in Washington, D.C.? 

MR. HYLDEN: Other than in connection with 
investigating the civil suit that you were involved with. 
THE WITNESS: We are going to run into a brick 
wall. 

MR. HYLDEN: Then we have a brick wall. That is 
all we can do about it. I don't want you to testify about 



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work you did investigating — the investigation in connection 
with the civil suit in this. 

THE WITNESS: Sorry. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Let's ask this question: Presuming 
that such a meeting did occur in Washington, D.C. between 
. yourself and officials or an official of the U.S. Customs, 
_ did you explain to that official that you were investigating 
a civil lawsuit? 

MR. HYLOEN: Don't answer the question. 

THE WITNESS: I have to listen to my counsel. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Did you receive anything from 
that U.S. Customs official regarding Mr. Kelso? 

THE WITNESS: I can't answer. 

MR. HYLDEN: What U.S. official? 

Would you clarify your question? What Customs 
official and when? 

MS. NAUGHTON: He wouldn't answer the question. 

MR. HYLDEN: He has answered a lot of questions 
including questions about conversations with Customs 
officials in Colorado. 

MS. NAUGHTON: You mentioned that you called U.S. 
Customs in Colorado — this is prior to consulting with an 
attorney. 

THE WITNESS: Right. 

MS. NAUGHTON: What was the name of the Customs 



mmim 



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mBm.fi 



26 



J official to whom you spoke in Denver? 

2 THE WITNESS: His name is Gary — I don't Jcnow 

2 his last name. 

4 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

5 Q Is it Hillberry? 

g A That might be right. 

J Q Did you speak to anyone other them Mr. Hillberry 

g during that conversation? 

g A I don't believe in that first conversation that 
I did. 

Q And the second conversation with Mr. Hillberry 
., took place when? 

A At a subsequent time within a few days and at that 
time I believe that Mr. Black, and I don't know — you, I am 
sure, know the name — 

MR. HYLDEN: Can you help him on that? 
MS. NAUGHTON: It is Mr. Black. 
THE WITNESS: I did talk with him on the phone 
at some subsequent time within a framework of a few days, 
right . 

MS. NAUGHTON: When you spoke to Mr. Black, how 
did you identify yourself? 

THE WITNESS: As Rob Owen, private citizen, who 
worked for a group called the Institute on Terrorism and 
Subnational Conflict. 



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(fNERSSinEO 



27 



J BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

2 Q Had you in the meantime spoken to Colonel North? 

3 A I don't remember whether I spoke to North before 
^ or after that conversation. 

e Q Had Colonel North told you that he had spoken to 
e anyone at Customs? 

• A Not when I first met him, because when I first 
o talked with him, he didn't know anything about it. 
a Q Subsequent to your conversation when you told him 

about it, do you know whether or not Colonel North spoke to 
anyone at Customs? 

A I think at this point is where the concern that 
involved the lawsuit — I think I talked with a lawyer at 
some point and a decision was made that this was regarding the 
lawsuit, that there was some connection. 

I don't know whether you wemt me to answer that or 
not. 

MR. HYLDEN: I don't want you to answer it. I am 
willing to talk to you off the record to see if there is a way 
to get around this. 

MR. BALLEN: Let's go off the record. 

[Pause in the proceedings.] 

MR. BALLEN: I will put this on the record. 

Since we don't know where your privilege starts, 
we are going to ask the questions we feel we have to ask. 



IIN£tJm 



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J Whenever you want to assert the privilege that you are 

2 claiming, assert the privilege. 

• THE WITNESS: I just assert it as attorney-client 

^ privilege; is that right? 

5 MR. HYLDEN: I will just instruct you not to 

answer . 

J MS. NAUCHTON: We want to put the exact basis 

_ of the privilege on the record. On the record, we will state 
. that it is not the committee's position that we recognize the 
privilege, but you may certainly assert the privilege. We 
can go back for a ruling on it. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON:. 
Q We were at the point — first let me ask this — 
when you first called Customs about Mr. Kelso, could you give 
us a month and a year of this conversation? 

A 1 can't give you a month unless I have a copy of 
the letter. 

MR. HYLDEN: Let's go off the record for a moment. 



okay? 

[Pause in the proceedings.] 
MS. NAUGHTON: Back on the record. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q The initial phone call again that you made to 
Customs in Colorado, could you give us an approximate month 
and year? 



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DNffilSSIHED 



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1 A I believe it may have been August 1986. You would 

2 have to go back and find the letter and see what the date was. 

3 It could have been somewhere around there . 

4 Q And do you recall the first conversation you had 

5 with Colonel North on this subject? Was that in August of 
1986? 

•J A I believe so. It would have been within the next 

a few days. You can go back and check the records on his entry 
9 log. 

Q Did Colonel North direct you or suggest that you 
meet with anyone at U.S. Customs in Washington, D.C.? 

A At that initial meeting, I do not think so. 

Q After you spoke to Assistant U.S. Attorney Black, 



y. did you then speak to Colonel North? 



A I think that I probably called him up and told 
him that I had talked with him. 

Q Did you at that time believe that Mr. Kelso was a 
Customs informant? 

A I had not made any assumptions one way or the other 
edjout Mr, Kelso at that time. 

Q At the second conversation with Colonel North 
after you spoke with Mr. Black, did Colonel North then 
suggest that you meet with zmyone from U.S. Customs in 
Washington, D.C.? 

MR. HYLDEN: I believe this was the question that 



mmm 



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i/iwmnED 



30 



. when you were asked it last time you said that at this point 
2 you had made a connection in your own mind with the Honey- 
2 Avirgan suit and were investigating. If that is so and if 
^ that second conversation with Colonel North falls into that 

- time period, then I instruct you not to answer so there 

e wouldn't be an argument of waiver of applicable privileges. 

- THE WITNESS: The way I would like to do this, 
_ and correct me if I am wrong, but either at the first 

conversation or at the second conversation, to the best of 
my recollection, that I had with Colonel North, it became 
apparent, or it was considered that this may have a reflection 
on the civil suit that has. been filed in Misuni, and therefore, 
that was when the connection was made and that was when it was 
undertaken as part of the civil suit investigation, contacting 
a lawyer. 

MR. HYLDEN: That is enough. Don't answer that 
question she has just posed any further. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q This committee has received testimony that you 
met then with the Assistant Commissioner for Customs, 
Mr. Hillieua Rosenblatt. Is it your testimony then that thirs 
meeting, your meeting with him, was in connection with 
investigating the civil private lawsuit against you? 

A That was my understanding of basically what that 
meeting was about. 




818 



25 



UNfiHtmED 



31 



1 Q Did you tell Mr. Rosenblatt that that was your 

2 purpose for being there? 

3 MR. HYLDEN: I instruct him not to answer. 

4 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

5 Q Did Mr. Rosenblatt arrange for you to receive any 

6 materials pursuant, from that visit? 

7 MR. HYLOEN: I instruct him not to answer. I am 

8 going to instruct him not to answer euiy questions within this 

9 time period that pertains to the privilege . 
10 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

tl Q Did Mr. Rosenblatt give you any tape recordings? . 

12 MR. HYLDEN: I have instructed him not to answer 

13 that question. I will instruct him not to amswer any 

14 questions about that meeting. You just asked him another 

15 question 2Q>out it. 

16 MS. NAUGHTON: No, I didn't. 

17 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

18 Subsequently to meeting with Mr. Rosenblatt, did you 

19 pick up tape recordings from the Customs Service in Washington, 

20 D.C.? 

21 MR. HYLDEN: Objection. I instruct him not to 

22 answer . 

23 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

24 Subsequent to picking up tape recordings, did you 
ever return them to the Customs Service? 



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^ MR. HYLDEN: I instruct him not to answer 

2 BY MS. NAUGHTON 

. Q Subsequent to the meeting with Mr. Rosenblatt, 

- did you meet in Costa Rica with agents of the Custom Service? 
5 MR. HYLDEN: I instruct him not to answer. 
g Off the record 

- [Discussion off the record.] 
g MS. NAUGHTON: Back on the record. 
Q Since the witness has refused upon advice of 

counsel to answer any further questions in the Kelso matter, 
I have no further questions and Mr. Ballen may have other 
areas of inquiry. 

MR. HYLDEN: The record will speak for itself as 
to what I have advised my client. 

MR. BALLEN: I have no other questions on any 
other matters, we covered John Hull previously. That was 
my major area of inquiry. 

MS. NAUGHTON: I have other areas. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Do you know Mr. Spivey? 
A Yes. 

Q Could you tell us where you met him? 
A In Washington, D.C. I received a phone call with 
North, or I was talking with Ollie, and he said, "There is a 
Hollywood producer who is thinking about doing a movie and 



Uimmpn 



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' I had given him your name and one other person's name, 

2 I believe Rich Miller. Would you talk with him?" 

3 Larry Spivey came to Washington, D.C. — 
^ Q Could you give us a tine frame? 

S MR. HYLDEN: We have been through this. 

® THE WITNESS: Mr. Spivey came to Washington and I 

7 ended up meeting with him on numerous occasions. I accompanied 

8 him to at least one Senator's office. I think I may have 

9 set up some appointments for him with some congressional 

10 staff. 

11 He came to my house with his girlfriend for a 

12 party that I was having. 

13 What else would you like to know? 

14 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

15 Q When was the last time that you spoke to Mr. Spivey? 

16 A Sometime in the late winter, maybe early spring 

17 of 1985. Well, actually, I ran into him at a — at the 

18 Nicaraguan Refugee Dinner in April of 1985. 

19 Q And that is the last time you recall speaking 

20 to him? 

21 A As far as I can remember. 

22 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Spivey had any 

23 contacts with any agents of the Federal Bureau of 

24 Investigation? 

25 A He said that he did. 



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Q What did he tell you eibout that? 
A He said he had met with agents of the FBI in 
Florida emd that the FBI had told him that John Hull was 
involved in narcotics trafficking. 

Q Did he give you the name of the agents? 
A He may have, but I have forgotten. 

Q Have you ever spoken to amy FBI agents stationed in 
® Miami, Florida? 

A Not that I know of. 

Q Did he tell you how the FBI found out this 
information regarding the drug smuggling? 
A No. 

Q What did he tell you aUsout it? 
'* A Something to the effect of he knew that I was 
'^ friends with John Hull euid I think he said you better beware 
'^ of Hull. I think he said something like the FBI is watching 
him for drug trafficking. 

Q Did he mention whether or not he had seen any FBI 
reports of activities in Central America? 

20 A I think he may have said that, yes. 

21 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Spivey communicated 

22 this information to Colonel North? 

23 A As far as I know, no. I don't know whether he did 

24 or not. I do remember that I probably brought it up to 

25 Colonel North, because I was concerned. 



wmmm 



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1 Q Did you tell Colonel North about Mr. Spivey's 

2 contacts with the FBI? 

3 A I may have. I believe that I probably would have. 

4 Q Did Colonel North indicate to you that he would 

5 take any action on this or try to find out more about it? 

6 A If he said £my thing, he was just trying to find 

7 out if there was any truth to it or not I think and I am not 

8 quoting him directly, but I think he probably said, "I will 

9 try to find out whether it is accurate." 

10 Q Did he say how he would find out? 

11 A No . 

12 Q Did Colonel Nortli tell you anything about any 

13 specific plans to shoot a movie with Mr. Spivey as producer? 

14 A I don't know whether North did, but Spivey 

15 certainly talked about it. That is why he was in Washington, 

16 he wanted to shoot a mini series — not only produce it, but 

17 be involved in the actual ending. 

18 Q You mean the end of the story of the resistance 

19 in Nicaragua? 

20 A Right . 

21 Q What was the ending to be? 

22 A That they would be successful. 

23 Q Was he going to take any action to see that that 

24 happened? 

25 A Was he going to take any action — he wanted to try 



UimSSIHFD 



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1 and orchestrate an ending. 

2 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Spivey received 

3 any money from the FBI at any time? 

4 A You've got me. 

5 Q Do you know if he had any contacts with any 

6 officers or assets of the CIA? 

7 A No. For some reason, I think he may have alluded to 
6 it, but I never took him seriously. 

9 Q Did either Mr. Spivey or Colonel North ever 

10 mention to you any contact with FBI agents stationed in Los 

11 Angeles? 

12 A The only thing -- for some reason, I don't know 

13 whether it was Los Angeles or where it was, but for some 

14 reason, I have in the back of my mind, I seem to recall that 

15 there may have been some mention that Ollie talked to someone 

16 about Spivey to find out whether he was an all right guy, if 

17 you will. 

18 But I don't know neunes and I don't really remember 

19 the specifics. It is just a vague recollection. 

20 Q What did Colonel North tell you he was told by 
2t the FBI? 

22 MR. HYLDEN: He didn't say, I don't think, that he 

23 knew Colonel North talked to the FBI, did you? 

24 THE WITNESS: I said earlier I didn't think he had, 

25 but I had a vague recollection that he might have. It would 



scoiiection that he might 

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have been, I guess the guy is air ffgnW*'l don't know. i 
took the lead from Ollie as to whether to associate myself 
with the guy, and told Ollie eventually that 1 thought he 
was using bad judgment in associating with him. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Why was that? 

A I didn't trust him. 

Q Why not? 

A Can we go off the record for a second? 

Q Why? 

A I am not going to put this on the record. 
[Discuasion off the record.] 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Do you know whether or not Admiral Poindexter 
ever net with Mr. Spivey? 

A Z would be highly surprised. Not that I know of. 

Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Spivey and Colonel 
North ever met with the producer David Holpe? 

A Z know at some point that David Wolpe — as a 
■•tter of fact, Z think that there was supposed to be a meet- 
ing sat up with Wolpe and Spivey in the White House mess at 
some point. 

Q Do you know when that was to occur? 

A Maybe February or Jzmuary 1985. 

Q What was the purpose? 



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A They nvay have been discussing the possibility of 
doing a film. Spivey had a variety of grand ideas and some of 
them seemed from a PR angle decent. Other ones seemed very 
far fete aed. 

Q If I could take you a little further in time to 
the fall of 1986 when the plane carrying Hasenfus crashed, 
do you know whether or not Mr. Spivey had any contact with 
Mr. Hasenfus? 

A After the crash? 

Q Yes. 

A All I know is what I read in the paper emd that was 
that he was having conversations about possibly producing his 
movie . 

Q Do you know whether Mr. Spivey bought up the 
rights to Mr. Hasenfus' story? 

A You will have to ask him. I only know what I read 
in the paper. 

Q Did you have any contacts with any FBI agents 
that are stationed in Los Angeles? 

A Not that I know of • 

MR. BALLEN: Let me interrupt for a second. You 
asked for the letter. I wanted to give you a copy of that. 

MR. LEON: Can we have that admitted as an exhibit? 
MR. BALLEN: All right, we will have it put in as 
Exhibit 1. 




826 



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1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

16 

Id 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



(Owen Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.] 
MR. LEON: Is this your handwriting at the top? 
THE WITNESS: No, it is John Hull's. if we can 
go back on this — it will clarify why he was concerned and 
the whole lawsuit came into being, is because there was a 




he has been associated with the lawsuit 
and that rang bells, too. 

That may clarify why there was a trigger. 
BY MR. BALLEN: 
Q This committee Exhibit No. 1 is a copy of the 
letter that you turned over to us previously? 
A Right. 

Q And the writing on the top is John Hull's? 
A Right . 

Q So this was a letter from John Hull to you in 
approximately August 1986? 

A Yes. I an not sure whether this writing was on the 
original letter or not or 1 got a copy of the letter and he 
put that on. I don't remember. 

MR. LEON: How about the writing on the last page? 
THE WITNESS: I believe that may have been on the 
letter, so maybe the original writing was on the letter, too. 
MR. LEON: Do you remember who wrote that? 
THE WITNESS: That is Hull. 



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MR. BALLEN: At the top of the first page it refers 
to other documents. 

Do you recall what those documents were? 
THE WITNESS: I think that they were some of the 
depositions or quasi-depositions that had been taken regardinc 
the Honey-Avirgan lawsuit. 

MR. HYLDEN: Those documents have also been turned 
over to the committee. 

MR. LEON: Do you know why he wanted those 
documents turned over to Senator Rudman as indicated in his 
handwriting at the top of the letter? 

THE WITNESS: I believe he wanted it turned over 
to the Senate Ethics Committee because I believe in one of the 
documents one of the people who were in jail said they had a 
conversation with a representative of Senator Kerry's office, 
and Senator Kerry's office had promised them money and a green 
card if they would come to the United States and testify. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Did you speak to Mr. Hull about this letter? 
A Yes. 

Q Did Mr. Hull tell you anything about Tomas 
Castillo's involvement 




MR. HYLDEN: His involvement with what? 



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BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q With this matter? 
A No. 
Q None . 

A Not when I talked to him. 

Q Did he specifically state to you that he wasn't 
involved? 

A It didn't come up. 

Q The very last page, the handwriting that says 
"Today some locals that should know told me" — and then I 
can't read that^^^^^^^^Hdid plan to have the gringo shot 
here. " 

MR. HYLDEN: It is not end quote. There is more 
language there that is deleted or not contained on the copy 
that we have been given. 

THE WITNESS: I don't think they have it either. 
MR. HYLDEN: Maybe you don't. There is further 
printing. 

MR. BALLEN: Here is the original and I will show 
it to you. 

MS. NAUGHTON: It is dash. It looks like either a 
B or 13U — "your friend the old" and then that can't be 
read. 

If you want to read into the record your version, 
that is all right. 



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MR. HYLDEN: It is not a question of anybody's 
version; it is a question of what the document says. 

THE WITNESS: Are you asking me what did he mean 
by that? 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Who was the gringo? 
The gringo was Kelso. 

you were told, was| 
I believe he is eithei^^ 

don't know which. 
Q Moving on, I would like to ask you about some 
incidents that occurred — 

MR. LEON: Let me just ask a question on this 
letter before you move on. 

Did you get the name of the person from Senator 
Kerry's office that supposedly wrote this? 
THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 
MR. LEON: Do you know if it was brought to 
Senator Rudman's attention? 

THE WITNESS: I don't remember. I believe the 
stuff was sent — actually, I don't know. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Do you know if it was ever brought to the attention 
of the U.S. Attorney in Miami as stated in the handwriting? 



I don't know. 



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1 MR. HYLDEN: For the record, the handwriting does 

2 not state that it was brought to the U.S. Attorney's 

3 attention. 

4 MS. NAUGHTON: Moving on to the time period 

5 around, let's say, January of 1986 and the spring of 1986, 

6 did you become aware of an investigation being conducted by 

7 the U.S. Attorney's Office out of Miami regarding targets 

V 

8 such as Rene Cori»o and others who may have been involved m 

9 activities in Central America? 

10 THE WITNESS: At some point I did. I don't remember 

11 the time frame, but I did become aware of an investigation. 

12 BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

13 Q Can you tell me how you became aware of an 

14 investigation? 

15 A I think it was through the newspaper. I am not 

16 sure. 

17 No, let me back track. You have a memo and 1 

18 testified to the fact that at one point when he was in Costa 

19 Rica , I was there at the same time as representatives of the 

20 U.S. Attorney's Office and the FBI who were involved in the 

21 investigation. 

22 Q We have received testimony that that was March 30 

23 through April 4. Would that comport with your recollection? 

24 A Without being able to look at my notes, I would 

25 imagine it is. 



^mmm 



831 

""^ 44 



uNeassnEO 



' Q When the Assistant U.S. Attorney and FBI agents were 

2 in Costa Rica, was that the first you had ever heard of their 

3 investigation? 
A 1 can't say specifically yes or no. i think so, 

5 but I don't know. 



Q From whom did you hear about the investigation? 
MR. HYLDEN: In Costa Rica at this point ~ 
THE WITNESS: I don't remember. It may have been 
the first time when I was in Costa Rica. I may have heard 
'0 about it before. 
" BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

'2 Q I asked from whom. 
'3 A I can't remember who it was before and when I was 

in Costa Rica, I believe that it was from Tomas Castillo. 
'* Q What if anything did Mr. Castillo tell you about 
t6 the investigation? 
'^ A I am going to throw something in here — can we go 

18 off the record for a second? 

19 [Discussion off the record.] 

20 THE WITNESS: I will state that I have read 
Mr. Castillo's testimony and he says that he never talked to 

22 me about it. There obviously is a difference of opinion. 

23 MR. LEON: Difference of opinion or recollection? 

24 THE WITNESS: Difference of recollection. As I 

25 testified, I remember to the best of my recollection that he 



ILASSIFJ 

lWMFfF.1 



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mmsmi 



45 



was the one who talked to roe about it. 

MS. NAUGHTON: Do you recall preparing a memo to 
Colonel North mentioning this? 

THE WITNESS: I had mentioned that I did prepare a 
memo that you have a copy of. 
BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Was that based on information received from 
Mr. Castillo? 

A To the best of my recollection, also from 
conversations with John Hull, and I can't remember, but I may 
have had conversations with the ambassador about it. 

Q What did the ambassador tell you 2tbout it. 
Ambassador Tambs? 

A I would have to read over my testimony to see what I 
said. It has been a long time since then. I will try to 
recollect it as best I can. 

If I remember correctly, we did talk about it, and 
my recollection is that I think %<• did. He just said that 
they were in here <uid they were asking questions about the 
whole thing. 

Z can't remember whether at the time Castillo 
was in that meeting or not, but I believe someone talked eibout 
that the FBI had a chart, it had Ollie North's name at the 
top and my name and then John Hull's name amd then it had a 
number of Nicaraguans' names. It said they were doing an 



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investigation, a broad-based, broad-sweeping investigation 
about the Southern Front. 

Q Was it your understanding that this chart was a 
chart of possible targets of the investigation? 

A It was never discussed as to targets. 

Q When Ambassador Tambs told you about the chart, 
what did he tell you? 

A I remember the ambassador obviously talked 
to me about it because he said why don't I getl 




one of the — I think it was a representative of the U.S. 
Attorney's Office — said what is that, being that they were 
not necessarily familiar with how an embassy worked. 

So I — as we talked, I remember his expression, 
I remember that. I must have talked to Ambassador Tambs 
about it. 

Q Aside from sending the memo to Colonel North, did 
you actually discuss this investigation with Colonel North? 

A Other than — I probably discussed the memo after I 
gave it to him. Among other things, I said that if I was 
approached by the FBI, I would not talk. I think I said it 
may be time for me to be bowing out at some point. 

Q Did you actually tell him that either face to 
face or in telephonic conversation? 

A I can't remembejT.^ Aie^utf— Aiiyfcalked about the 



mms 



834 



19 
20 
2i 
22 



24 

25 



mmsfiiw 



47 



1 memos and I probeibly would have gone over briefly what I 

2 wrote . 

3 Q Did Colonel North indicate he would follow up and 

4 try to monitor the investigation? 
A No. 

g Q Did he tell you what became of the investigation? 
7 A No. 

g Q After that visit by the Assistant U.S. Attorney 
g and FBI agents in early April of 1986, did you hear anything 
fQ more about the investigation from any source? 

A You mean until today? 
12 MR. HYLDEN: Other than in the newspaper? 

,3 MS. NAUGHTON: Up until November 1986. 

^4 MR. HYLDEN: Excluding newspapers? 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q Excluding public media. 
A Not to the best of my recollection. I don't think 



fg that I talked with North again ctbout it. I don't think — I 



want to emphasize "think" because I can't remember. I don't 
think so. I may have talked with some of the other people 
who were potentially involved. I knew that it was involving 
the one flight out of Fort Lauderdale that I have testified 



2, to, but nothing jumps to my mind. 



Q Do you know how many trips the Assistant U.S. 
Attorney and the FBI agents took to Costa Rica? 



mmm 



835 



mmnB 



A I have no idea. 
2 Q Are you just aware of the one? 

2 A There may have been another. In the back of my 
. mind, maybe I think there is another, but I don't remember 
_ specifically. 

g Q Did you ever meet either with the Assistant U.S. 
_ Attorney or either of the FBI agents who were accompanying 
the Assistant U.S. Attorney? 

A I was never introduced and to the best of my 
recollection never met them. 

Q Did you discuss the investigation with Mr. Hull? 
A I think that yes, we probably talked about it. 
Q What did he tell you about the investigation? 
A He just said that he was approached and — as a 
matter of fact, he and I were coming back to the States 
together, I think, and there was some thought that we may 
end up bumping into each other or be on the same plane — 
he was going to come back. I didn't want to run into him. 

Q Did Mr. Hull tell you whether or not he had agreed 
to be interviewed by the FBI agents? 

A I can't remember. I know that they called him up 
to talk to him and at some point he said I think he had agreed, 
and I think I probably may have said, "John, you don't have to 
talk to them if you don't want to." I said, "You have to make 
up your own mind." I know he also called someone at the 



UNCIASSP^!? 



836 



VIM14MED 



49 



embassy. I said, "I imagine if you talk to them, you better 
have a lawyer. " 

Q Do you know with whom he spoke at the embassy? 

A I believe someone in the counsel's office. 

Q Was it Mr. Petulla? 

A That would probably be the person. 

Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Hull spoke to 
Colonel North during that time period? 

A Not that I know of. 

Q Do you know whether he spoke to anyone at the 
NSC staff during that period? 

A I would doubt it. He didn't know anyone other than 
North and to the best of my recollection, I think he has only 
met North three times. 

I can't see John Hull calling up Ollie North on 
the phone and talking to him. 

Q Do you know how many times Mr. Hull met with 
Ambassador Tambs? 

A I don't believe he ever met him. 

Q Ever? 

A That is right. 

Q Did you ever discuss it with Mr. Hull? 

A He wrote a letter to Ambassador Tambs when he first 
arrived and eventually got a letter saying, "John, I would 
love to meet you, but it probably is not a good idea." 



UdOASSKIED 



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Q Did the anbassador explain why? 

A John was a hot property. He is known, well known 
in Costa Rica and it had obviously come out that he may have 
been a CIA asset, people said that he was a CIA agent, so 
they thought it inappropriate. 

MR. LEON: You mean controversial? 

THE WITNESS: Yes; controversial. Thank you. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 

Q Did Colonel North ever discuss with you Executive 
Assistant Director of the FBI Buck Revell? 

A No. I certainly knew that he knew him. 

Q How did you know that? 

A It may have come up in a conversation or at one 
time it may have been that — there was a discussion about 
his working group that would meet there. I think on one 
occasion we talked about terrorism, talked about the working 
group that would meet on terrorism and Buck Revell was part 
of that group. 

Q Did Colonel North tell you he received information 
from Mr. Revell involving ongoing criminal investigations? 

A Not that I know of. 

Q Were you aware of any FBI information regarding a 
possible assassination plot by Mr. Terrell against Ambassador 
Tambs or the President? 

A I did hear about that. That was through Glenn 



mma 



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iffmmo 



51 



Robinette . 1 know that Glenn had conversations with the 
FBI about it. 

Q Would that have been some time in the spring or 
summer of 1986? 

A That sounds right. I don't remember. 

Q What did Mr. Robinette tell you about that? 

A He had been talking with Mr. Terrell regarding — 
a lot of it was regarding the — let me back up. He was 
trying to gain Mr. Terrell's confidence. He had several 
conversations and meetings with Mr. Terrell, and at one point 
he said he had found out some information, I think he had gone 
down and talked with Ollie and Ollie had pvit him in touch with 
the FBI, but conversations with Terrell or something along 
those lines. 

Q Did Mr. Robinette tell you he had met with the FBI? 

A Yes. 

Q What did he tell you about that? 

A That he had had conversations with Jack Terrell. 

Q Did he mention working with the FBI in investigating 
Mr. Terrell's activities? 

A He was very worried about working with the FBI. 
He was concerned that someone would turn around and say that 
Ollie had his own plumbers unit and he wanted to be sure that 
everything was documented that he was not working for North. 

I think that on one occasion the FBI was going to 
follow him to a meel 



DliMlED 



839 



UI^^S^ED 



52 



. Q Do you know what came of that cooperation between 

2 Mr. Robinette and the FBI? 

3 A I don't think it lasted very long. 
^ Q Do you know why not? 

A No. 
g Q When did you first meet Mr. Robinette? 
y A The summer of 1986. 

g Q Were you introduced by Colonel North? 
A No. 

Q How did you meet him? 

A I think it may have been through Secord. I am not 
sure. I don't think anyone was there at our initial meeting, 
that either I was asked to call him or he called me or some- 
thing like that. And I think I remember eventually asking 
Ollie about Mr. Robinette, and he said, "Don't worry. He is a 



.g good guy. " 

Most of my dealings with Mr. Robinette were with 



regard to the lawsuit. 

Q Were you aware of Mr. Robinette 's involvement in 
erecting the security fence for Colonel North? 

A At some point I became aware of that, yes. 

Q What did you become aware of? 

A I knew that he was trying to help Ollie and Ollie 's 
wife. Basically he was spending more time with Ollie 's wife 
trying to reassure her. There was concern about a possible 



UdCUSSIEIED 



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UNtttSSIflED 



53 



attack on the family, and that was basically it. 

Q Did you learn this from Mr. Robinette or from 
Colonel North or from another source? 

A No, it was basically from Mr. Robinette. I don't 
think I ever got into specifics with Colonel North about 
Mr. Robinette other than asking him whether he was someone 
that I could trust and deal with, and he said yes. 

There may have been occasions where we talked about 
him, but in generalities. 

Q Did Mr. Robinette tell you who was paying for the 
fence? 

A No, I don't think so, unless he said Secord was, 
but I don't remember. 

Q If we can go back to the Miami Neutrality Act 
investigation in the spring of 1986, when you wrote the memo 
to Colonel North, I believe it was April 7th, describing the 
visit of the Assistant U.S. Attorney and the FBI agents, 
what was your purpose in writing to Colonel North about that 
event? 

A To keep him informed. 

Q Why did you think he should be informed of the 
investigation? 

A When his name was brought up linking my name and 
saying that — I think at that point they may have been saying 
that I was the one taking $10,000 a month from Colonel North 



mmm 



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VMmflED 



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, down to John Hull, that was not true and that was something 

2 he should be aware of. 

3 Q Did he indicate to you that any steps would be 
taken by anyone to see that the investigation did not go any 



5 further? 



A None whatsoever. 

Q Did anyone at the U.S. Embassy in Costa Rica 



g mention that fact? 



A None whatsoever. 

MR. LEON: Would that have been consistent with his 
personality as you knew it? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. HYLDEN: Would what have been consistent? 

THE WITNESS: His not saying that something was 
going to be done . 

MR. LEON: In other words, from your experience in 
dealing with Colonel North, did you have reason to think that 
he would try to interfere with a government investigation into 
a matter? 

THE WITNESS: No. 

BY MS. NAUGHTON: 
Q i«iat if anything do you know about Colonel North's 
calls to Customs and the FBI after the Hasenfus plane went 

down? 

A I don't think I know anything about calls he made. 



mmm 



842 



17 



mmmm 



55 



1 I didn't have a lot of contact with Ollie at that time, and — 

2 I am trying to think. Certainly not with the FBI and I don't 

3 know whether he may have come up with a conversation with 

4 Customs or not. 

5 Q Do you know anything eOsout a DC-6 that was supposedly 

6 loaded with narcotics bound from the United States for Central 

7 America and its being seized by Customs or the DEA? 
MR. HYLDEN: Do you have a date? 
9 BY MS. NAUGHTONi 

10 Q 1985. 

11 A No , 

12 Q Do you know of any drug-related cases in which 

13 either yourself or Colonel North cooperated with either the 

14 DEA or Customs? 

15 A At one time he and I had lunch and he talked about 
]g a bust that took place that he was involved in. It may have 



been the ^■■^^H^B. -- he was involved in some capacity 
lg with that regarding the Sandinistas and ^H^B's involvement 
ig with them and there may have been another one. 
20 Q What did Colonel North tell you about his 
2 J involvement? 

22 A I don't know whether he said what his involvement 
22 was, he just talked edjout the case 

Q What did he tell you about the case? 

A All I can remember is that there was a van, the 



iimAiL^En 



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56 

stuff came in, if I remember correctly there was a house trail- 
er or van being driven that had a flat tire. There was a 
screwup somewhere along the line so they ended up making the 
bust before they had planned on doing it. 

I forget what his involvement was and it is all 
very faded, but there was a conversation like that. 

Q Did he mention any photographs being taken as the 
van was being loaded? 

A He may have. I don't remember. 

Q Did you ever see any such photographs? 

A No. ^^^^^^^^^ 

Q I want to ask about^H~^^^^^^^^^^When did 

you learn about^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^B 

Was it^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^|upposedly 
the potential coup attempt and is he^^^^^^^^E* 

Q ^^^^^^^|yes- 

A I think I first learned about it from Chris Arcos. 

Q Who is? 

A Presently he is at the White House in Public 
Liaison for Central America. At the time he was at NHAO as 
Deputy Director. 

Q What did he tell you about 

A He just talked about the present investigation and 
that it was going on in Miami regarding the coup attempt or 
an assassination -- I really was rtever sure about it. I also 




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57 



heard about it from other people. 

Q From whom? 

A Colonel Nester Peno and at one point Ollie and I 
may have had a passing conversation about it. 

Q What did Colonel North tell you about 






A I think his comments were something to the effect 
that he was an old man who was getting used and he felt that 
he was set up or he was -- he was sort of a pawn. 

Q A pawn of whose? Who was controlling him? 

A He didn't really say. I don't remember. 

Q Did Colonel North ever tell you what it was that 
Idid to assist the United States cause! 

A No. He didn't -- not that I remember. 

Q Did Colonel North ever mention to you wanting to 
go to bat for^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hafter he had been convicted 
of plotting the assassination? 

A He may have. I don't remember. I mean I think 
he felt that it was an injustice that he was convicted, he 
felt it was wrong that he was convicted. 

Q Did Colonel North express a concern that 
lad been set up by someone? 

A If I remember correctly, and I don't know whether 
this comes from Colonel North,^^^^^^^^^Hwas in one or two 
meetings and a 1 1^^^^^^^^^^ a i d was huh, huh, huh. He didn' 





TBHk 



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have a lot to say in the meeting. But he felt — especially 
when ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 
had written a letter asking that^^^^^^^^^Bse granted a -- 
I don't know whether he was pardoned or whatever. 

Q Did you see the letter? 

A No. 

Q Did Colonel North tell you about it? 

A I don't think it was he who told me about it. 
I think it was someone else. 

Q Do you recall who? 

A I may have read about it in the papers or it may 
have been Arcos or Peno. 

Q Do you know what was done to respond to the 




A I think there was a screwup and the letter was mis- 
placed and never got where it was supposed to go. 

Q Do you know whether Colonel North took any steps 
aftei^^^^^^^^^^was convicted to get him any sort of leniency 

A I don't know. I don't know whether the letter 
came before or after. 

Q Had you ever met with| 

A No. 

Q Did you ever communicate with him in any way? 

A No. 

Q Do you know what he is doing now? 




UNQMP 



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59 



( A No. 

2 Q One other area. There is a man who went by the 

3 I name of Al Masioudi whose real name was Zadeh who claimed to 

4 be a Saudi prince who was going to donate money to the 

5 contras. 

g Did you ever meet this person? 

I 
7 A No. The only thing I know about him is what I 

3 heard in testimony or what I heard during the hearings. 

9 r Q Were you aware that Colonel North was working with 

fQ two DBA agents named^^^^Hknd^^^^^^Hto try to locate the 

)f hostages? 

A No. 
^3 Q You never met either gentleman^ 
,4 A No. 
^5 MS. NAUGHTON: Those are all the questions I have. 

jg MR. BERMINGHAM: I want to cover two areas. One 

17 



involves the involvement of anti-Castro Cubans in Costa Rica, 



Renet Corko. 

BY MR. BERMINGHAM: 

Q Did you ever have contact with Renef Cor*o? 

A I never met him. 

Q Did you hear from Hull or Castillo anything 
about this Cuban group? 

A Yes. 

Q Could you tell us what you found out about them? 



llNGUli^lFe 



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A There was a concern that Rene* Corfco was a maverick 
He had become very close ^°^^^^^^^^^B There was some 
concern that he was involved in narcotics trafficking. 

There was a move to get him disassociated from 

He also was involved in bringing a couple of 
fli3ht^-^thi^i^inl985 — bring a couple of flights from 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hthat the infamous plane that Hull 
and I and two others flew up and met and they were landing on 
the wrong airfield. 

He was involved in raising — I think he raised some 
money in Miami to help with the Southern Front. 
Q Did he have a group of men] 

A He had some Nicaraguans and there may have been 
one or two Cubans with him. He had a camp. 
Q Was he supported by John Hull? 
A I don't think so. I think John certainly knew 
about him, but felt among others that he was trouble. 
Q Was this a C-47 7 

A No. This is the Islander. I believe it was an 
Islander that came in. 

Q Do you know if he was in contact with the CIA 





A Tomas Castillo was very concerned about Cor^o as 
well. He was never to my knowledge involved with Castillo. 
We were trying to find ways to get^^^^^^^^^^Hto get rid o: 



IINCUSSIf, 



■I^ 



848 



\immia 



61 



\ him, send him back to Miami. 

2 Q What was the attitude of Colonel North with regard 

3 to this Cuban group or any group that was -- i assume it was 

4 not under his control, he had no control over this Cuban 

5 group, right? 

6 A North? 

7 Q Yes. 

8 A He had no control over any group that I know of. 

9 I occasionally mentioned Ren^ in the memos. It plainly 

10 mentioned that he was someone that probably — that should be 
thrown out ^^^^^^^^^^^H that it was bad for the whole 

12 operation. , 

13 Q That was your opinion? 

14 A That was the opinion of others as well. 

15 Q What was North's attitude? 

16 A He had other things to worry about. It probably 

17 went in one ear and out the other. 

ig Q Did he take any interest that this man was 

19 allegedly involved in drug trafficking? 

20 A Anytime that I brought up drug trafficking, 
I think he showed a concern of some type, and oftentimes he 
would take notes. What happened after that, I don't really 
know. 

Q He never indicated that he reported this information 
to DEA? 



wmm 



849 



UNNJWIED 



62 

A I just assume that he did. I think at one time he 
did say that he talked to his friend at DEA. Oasgs was a 
concern because of what we talked about earlier with Hull, 
because of the poor reflection it would have on the 
resistance . 

My notes or my memos to him talked about narcotics 
and he was concerned about it, again because of the image 
problem and because it did damage. 

Q In your contacts with John Hull and with contra 
leaders, including Calero, what was their attitude about 
these stories about drug trafficking? 

A When I talked to Calero about it, he was concerned. 
He thought it was bad for the image, bad for the program. 
Hull was constantly being targetted, certainly in the Honey 



1 
2 
3 

4 
5 

6 

7 

8 

9 
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14 

and Avirgan suit that he was involved in narcotics trafficking 
15 • 

and Rene* Cor%o and others were involved. 
16 

17 

16 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



As I stated earlier in the four years that I have 
known John Hull, I would find it hard to believe that he was 
or is involved in narcotics. 

Q Did you meet with Eden Pastora? 

A On four or five occasions. 

Q Did you know Carol Prado? 

A Yes. In one of my memos, I said I was concerned 
that he was involved in drug trafficking out of Panama. 

Q Marcos Aguado? 



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He was Pastora's pilot. There was concern about 



him. 



Afterl 



April 1984, 



what happened to Pastora's plames and equipment? 

up 
A A couple of them ended^going /t|t eventually to the 

FDN. He had one or two — I think there was one that crashed 

on the Pacific Coast, another was flown into a mountain taking 

off^^^^^^^^^^^^Hwith one former 

Q Do you know of any support that Pastora and his 
group was receiving fr om the United States Government via 
CIA or North or Hulll 

A No. There was a conscientious decision not to 
support Eden Pastora. 

Q Have you heard of Gerardo Duran? 

A I think he may have been involved in narcotics 
trafficking, but I don't know where that comes from. I may 
be slandering the man. 

Q What about] 

A I have heard the neune. And I right now can't 
remember in what context. 

Q He is a Cuban-American from Miami — does 
that refresh your recollection? 

A I don't know whether it was! 
there is another name, and I don't know whether it is the same 
that was involved in the Cuban movement against Castro and 



UNCLASHED 



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UNOMFIED 



64 



also spent some time^^^^^^^^^^f but I don't know whether 
it is the Seune man. I csm't remember right now. 

Q What about Carlos Coronel? 

A He is a Nicaraguan who was a Sandinista. He 
came over to work with Pastora at one time and he recently 
went back to Nicar; 




Q Was he utilized by North's network? 

A Not at all. 

Q He received no funds as far as you know? 

A None . 

Q Are you familiar with the brothers Octaviano 
Cesar — Octaviano Cesar and Alfredo Cesar? 

A Yes. I first met them in 1984. I have had no 
meetings with them since then, but I certainly know who they 
are and what they do. 

Q Was Octaviano Cesar a member of any contra 



UNSIZED 



852 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

II 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

1» 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



65 

organization? 

A In 198 3 he was working with a group called Riscate, 
which basically meant rescue the revolution, and then he 
worked with his brother Alfredo with BOS. 

Q Would you call Octaviano Cesar a contra leader? 

A No. 

Q What about his brother Alfredo? What was his 
background? 

A Yes, he was a Sandinista. He left in 1982. 
He was a well-educated man, head of the Sandinista Nicaraguan 
Bank, and now is one of the directors of the Nicaraguan 
resistance. 

Q What contra organization was he with? 

A He started his own called BOS. 

Q When would that have been? 

A Sometime in 1984, I think. 

Q Was he ever supported by North funds or Calero 
funds? 

A Not that I know of, no. He was supported, I believe 
by the Socialists International. 

Q Do you know of any drug allegations concerning 
either of these — 

A I have heard the allegation of Octaviamo Cesar, 
I think it was 60 Minutes or 20/20 — no. West 57th Street, 
my favorite show, did one of those. 



««sy» 



853 



UNIJ^WSD 



66 

Q Did you see the show? 
J A I think so. 

« Q The allegation was there that he funneled funds 
. from drug dealers? 
_ A Right . 

g Q Do you know if North was aware of these 
_ allegations? 

A Not that I am aware of. 
- Q You never discussed it with him? 

10 ^ ^°- 

.. Q Did you discuss it with DEA, any DEA agents or 

., CIA officials? 

J- A No. I didn't really know about Octaviano until 

West 57th Street. 
14 

j_ Q In any case, the allegation would have been after the 

,- CIA investigation? 
1o 

A As far as I know. 

Q Do you know of any information linking Alfredo 

Cesar with drug trafficking? 

A No. 
20 

Q Is he an independently wealthy man? 

A I don't know. I think he had some money. I 
22 

imagine now he is getting assistance . 

Q Are you fauniliar with the name Humberto Quinones? 
24 

A No. 



25 



utmsstdED 



854 



67 



1 MR. BERMINGHAM: That is all I have. 

2 MR. LEON: Mr. Owen, I want to ask just two 

3 questions. 

* BY MR. LEON: 

5 Q This letter that you have in front of you, a copy 

^ of that you have previously provided us — 

7 A Yes. 

8 Q Was it your impression that these were 

9 allegations that Hull had heard about and that he was bringing 
10 them to your attention — 

" A Yes. 

'2 Q — in the hope that you might be able to have them 

13 checked out? 

'4 A Yes, exactly. 

15 Q So as to the accuracy of what is stated in this 

16 letter, there were questions in your mind, in Hull's mind, 

17 and other minds as to whether any of it was accurate at all? 

18 A Yes. There was the thought that he may be another 

19 crazy. 

20 Q That who might be? 

21 A Kelso. 

22 Q You didn't have the time, correct me if I am wrong, 

23 to conduct an investigation yourself into all these 

24 allegations? 

25 A Right. 



0KCU£5U(lFn 



855 



uinA^iffie 



68 



\ Q Nor did you? 

2 A Right. I mean there were major concerns that 

3 regarded the lawsuit. 

4 Q And to the extent that you discussed it with Colonel 

5 North, you were bringing it to his attention for his informa- 

6 tion in the event that it might have some concerns with 

7 things that he was working on as a staff member at the NSC? 

8 A Certainly, and obviously if the DEA was involved 

9 as the allegations were that it was wrong and that it should 
^0 be investigated. 

11 Q From your experience in dealing with Colonel North 

12 did he in fact ever tolerate any activity on the part of any 

13 U.S. Government officials in narcotics running in Central 

14 America? 

15 A None whatsoever. Would he have tolerated it from 

16 what you can tell? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Would he have tolerated any similar type conduct 

19 by leaders of contras or members if he beceune aware of it? 

20 A None whatsoever. He would not have condoned it, 

21 accepted it or approved it. 

22 MR. LEON: Thank you very much. Unless you have 

23 something you want to offer in conclusion, I have no further 

24 questions. 

25 MR. HYLDEN: No, it has been a pleasure to be here. 
(Whereupon, at 12 ^4Jl-p.jig^ Ah|Mi|y Bition concluded.) 



iW£iiJW1t' 



856 



nt 






^ jmmn 

^ huS^ - /^ / ^f ^t*^/**^ V^>*»-J 'T^- August. 9/ 8/^ 



3 .V 



-1^ 



A gringo age about 28 to 30,blu« •/•• heavy build, 6 ft tall 
arrived at mucllt being driven by Edgardo Alpizar.A dentist that 
lives on the ather side of the river from John Hull . 

The dentist being well known to the guards was permitted to 
the main house . 



The dentist 



brought to his 




With an ongoing fight with the U.S. A liberal leftist 
press, 2C00 c«ws 100.000 citrus trees, two teen age children and 
three dogs to warry aboQt I was not wild with joy that these 
people brought me one more headache. 

I did agree to feed the boy. put hia under armed 
guard, listen to his story. In retrospect this was not one of my 
most brillant decissions-the story goes as fellows. Mane of gringo 
on passport was Klchard Willlans.Hawever he said the passport was 

false, his real nAiM is Joseph Itebert Kelso . Sorn in Minn. U.S.A. 
workin g out of Denver Co loreJc 
IH^H^HHI^HI^IA^^*^ brought him had told him he would 
safe here as I cauld not be carrupted by drug money. This shows 
the disadvantage of • good reputation as no one has ever offerd 
me any money. How do we know what my price night be 7 

The Richard Williams passpoart that belonged to Joe Kelso 
did have • foto of the young man who ever he is. showed 
immigration stamps for several Curttpaan and mid Cast 
Countries. The story continues as fallows. 

Richard Willias^j recieved a call four weeks ago in Egypt to 
came to^Costa Rica to help one Brian Caldwell who had informstion 
that there was to be an attempt on the life of Oscar Arias 
president of Costa Rica. during his visit tq Colombia. This info 
along with sopporting tapes had been sent to Mr. Scott McDaniel ."" 
U.S.A. mili tary Panama . S au thcoir.. Alle ged assarinj^ were RTTTTnd 
ETA 



857 




[ «r« also on^BBHI payroU^^^^H^^hos « b«nK acct in 
Ar9cnttn«,Pan«ma and Miamx and •om« of tMa can b« checked with 
JSp«Uln9)who works for U.S.A.customa N«w Orltana. 

^>f U.S.A-D.E.A haa mapa of coka lab locationa in 

Coatl Rica 5ut is protacting them, one large lab located in 
southern Nicoya .Another in Talamanca region Caat CoaatiOopc 
people have killed the son of one don Augusto, heavy investor in 
new Holiday inn, San Jose ,a fellow by the name of Hoppe has 
contract on Augusto jicrsonaly so drug people can use hotel to 
launder money. 

Somewhere in the notes I have the name of ^^H^| who is a 
bad ass and owns a house that the U.S.A-0«E. A. people use too live 
in. 

By this time I am confused,! didn't remember who I was and 
should I be on the side of the killors or the killees.One gree:. 
passport showed a sad faced old man and said John Hull U.S.A. 
citizin.The other red showed a handsome smileing bastard and said 
John Hull Costa Rican. Since there was no bank acet to be found in 
Arge ntin a , P anama or Miami I soon loa t intrest and called the 

to com* and" give an 
expert opinion^^H is a wise and prudent man so he took off to 
seek advice from the U.S. A. Embassy people. 

blot being knon for wisdom or prudence. but having just heard 
the U.S.A.-O.E.A.teas had checked in their whit^hat^^^^^eck 
ones, and remembering that my two requests '<'0''^H^^^H|H '°'' 
help had resulted in nothing being done, I decioe^^t^cal^the 
local rural guard and the local O.I .S-Oept. internal security. By 
now Richard William was asleep in the 4ueet cabin beeing guarded 
by a ur personal gu arda 

^^^^■IMH of the rural guard^^showed up with three 
guards. Then the local OIS with two. Il^^l^l made a phone call to 
San Jose and was told Millia^jfa^^ry dangerious and should be 
shot if he resi/^d arrest .^H^JHH ^*^^*^ '^^ '^"^ "^'* guards. 

Now we h^A e rural guards 2 O.I.S with uxis,3 indians with 
12 guage riot guns. There is a law in Costa Rica that the police 
can not coae on private property and arrest people from 6 p.m. to 
6a.m. so we decided Williams should sleep until 6a.m. 

land X had a couple of beere and went to sleep while 
Margarita, the maid and Sandra made coffee and sandwiches for the 
guards and peon onlookers. 

At 3(30 A^ I was awakend by a burst of machine gum fire, 
shouts, curses, etc, and went auteide to see the gringo Williams 
come out with his hands up only to be struck with a rifle butt 
and knocked down and being kicked while dpwn. Th ere was a big 
argument going on between the OIS and a rural guard 
that had come over from San Jose to take charge. 

The gringo was marched to the main house in his undrewear 
and knocl^ed down again . At this point Margarita joined forces w^h 
^^e O.I.S telling the ■■i^|. that violence wasn't necessary -^^ 
■^^shouted It was better to kill him than te killed. The indian 



858 



MIKSW 



0/ ^^ 



or his ahoutln9 at their *p«trona".Thcy wer« ttandinq with their 
•ar» up and shotgun safety off like •lateffls guard dogs that had 
bean told to bit* a blaeli and ceuldnt decide which one. 

Yours truly was doddering around trying to establish peaceful 
relations bv saying there was surly so»e aiistake, without telling 
everyone I was the one that made it. I could see enough shit, 
blood and bad press ink cemeing,to peint the house with enough 
left over for the corral. 

Since you are in Wash. You night cheek these things out^ 
the D.C. A. people are in t he drug buisnese it should be ttot 




le'eontrt' K 
aiueh about 



l^lll 
la w 
youT 



went thru th«t 
coke. or crooks 



Anyway we are so hepf 
we're not enclined to worry too 
todey. 

S.O.r called me today fro* Guateaele wanting to co«« get 
action shots here since the aid bill paaa« dj 

Bey do I ever get the craaies.You andHH*'* ^^* ^"^^ **"* 
friends I have and sometimes I worry about yoi 



Sincerely. 



wmm 



859 



<Lf 



■ !\^ 

cC 

CO 




MUSSIRED 



ST; 



August. 17/8/86 



It is a strange world in which, 1 litft yesterday at daybreak 
10 rural guards, 1 capt.2 majors came to the farm protect ^res. 
Ariasimini5LerjF of government-minister of transpctation that were 
due to land at muelle 8a.m. 

Soon we had two choppers and three airplanes here with brass 
galore. The chopper put the president in Quesada.but we had 10 
cars full of preisecurity D.I.S -press people etc, one Col. head 
of Costa Rica air force anither Col. head of rural guard north zone 
one-It Col. several majors a.',d room full of captain*. 

The maid was off for mothers day so Sandra, Johnny and 
Margarita spent all day mekeing sandwiches, coffee, etc. This was 
very good for Margarita/" indegestion.when she awoke and saw all 
the hungry people she shit. 

At first the press people got n« to one side and said they 
would not print that they were on the farm, the wanted to protect 
me, from what, they didn't say.. 




/'A^ Cub — ^ Since I didi^^reanT^^TiS^T^^^l would like to start a J^/r, 

Tf y^tf wamt t> sta^t a wAS/ff^/iroN chapter 

^^ . /iL^Affi Has poun Cc/^^M re^s ^^^p - T£ f-*— 

Blcmdie — WHAT Dc£i A^uAJfa D^ A/a^y ^-^ 

Av6- /p - 



860 




And now the b««t n«w« of allt 

^ I N«xa. w««k, •Stk In aeeaaa/effBOM will >i'"Hpotltj4'7\ th« uiual 

p /\«c/oW. WhilaVhit ■QStrb* httthuidcdyar* fully ylt shtald adlov 

^ }\\id td brl/9« th« \«p baieWMB now Vad when th« >■•<• is taK«n and 
— .r yh« f^ftd* ar« turnk4.^ag«ln. ^"^ y"^''^^^ ^-^ /\^ 



mmm 



861 



wmsm 



So t^at w# ^.iv* i pl*n, : prapost the !olIowir.c steps as ^.^rres: 
pricrity: 

~yp fcrces in th« p.ortharn part of Sicaraqu* r.««<i tc fct d-.scersj 
sc -'".a- •■•■ev af not ciuqht in th« iirastorr as th» S« r.ciir.i'itn 
s.nt«nc . 






^_^_^^_^^_^^^^^ If th« htqh ground can >>• J^ju*rda<i. »s«.. 
thos« who narbor in thoi« araaa will b€ «af>. 



Maanwh ila. th« force* and volunt««rt who hav« arrlvdj 
^^can b« outfitted, provid«d with aom* training, an^ 



'If a ragular rtaupply program ca- 

t€ €stabl.:.sh€d ifW^WTT^TTT^* dapositad naxt w««'<, u« car 
start a regular logiitic* program of ona flight every 10- '.5 days 
and the steady movement of auppliea and ammunition to the forvaid 
tases. 

Most important i* saving the force from what I believe will te i 
serious effort to destroy it in the next few weeks, while * <r.cw 
it hurts to hide, now it the ttm« to do it. While they are 
hiding, the man who it carrying thit mettage can start the 
regular resupply procetc. I believe it would be wite to dedicate 
as much as S9-10M for nothing but logistics. To coordinate a 
na'or effort such at thit, I strongly urge that you bring abcar. 
a logistics export who it both Unowledgeable ard trusty, .he 
courier should be able to help with thit. 




^^^^TimTn^hM h*rd at they phate down 

in fruttration fre« tkeir current op*'**^*"" •"^^'"t'fiC' ** 
teleeted ttratefie targets with your enhanced capability. 

Thit new money will provide greet ""iJ^i^L^r/lJ^Sr •"^"^•^ 
to date, t would urge you to m*ke «••?;•<*• «;j|jrj?' "^can 
Britith friend and hit tervlcet for to«:lAJ.jeperatlont^ l can 
produce him at the end of ^hlt_monthJ 






862 



wmm 



Ycu and I both reeeor. i_^^_txiA. value ar.d Iin^itatior.s . 

cur Conqrtas art aware J^^^^^^^^M^B^^^^MM^^^l 

IB^mi^BHBHHIHB^HIHH^^^^^^^H^T^^^ccuTd be 
deves^at :..-.g lo our f orthcomin^caBpWg^to restore the fundi.-.!;. 
I will find out how much h« is getting and let you know, but i'. 
seems as though something should b« set aside for this purpose. 




Request you advise me soonest regarding the depos^^^n^destroy 
this letter after reading. The map can be passed^|^^^ with 
rTiy best wishes. Please do net in any way malce anyone aware of 
the deposit. Too much is becoming Icrown by too many people. >.■« 
r.eed to make sure that this new financing does not become Itnown. 
The Congress must believe that there continues to be an urgent 
need for funding. 

Warm regards, 
Steelhammer 



UNGLA^IFfEi! 



863 



TO: 



The Hammer 



mmm 



■n 



pril 1, 1985 



FROM: T.C^ 

SUBJECT: southern Front 

The following paper discusses a series of meetings the author has had 
over the last several weeks concerning the future of the Southern Front. 
These meetings took place in the South and in Washington. The most 
recent ones were held on Friday and Saturday, March 29 and 10 in 
Washington. 

Proiect for Reconstruction 

The Project was conceived by seven people. They are: 

Partially DecM'isified/Released onAHjEsJiSP' 
under provisions ol E.O 12365 
by K Johnson. National Security Council 



The meeting was originally proposed and setup by 

About four months ago some six of the seven came to Washington, at 
the urging of Nat Henry, to meet with Senator Helms. They gave the 
Senator the attached paper and discussed their idea but they never 
heard another thing from the Senator or his staff. Out of desperation 
they came one more time hoping to meet with the Hammer. 

I had metmH^I during the sunvner of 1983 when I visitec 

He recognizecnTie and was glad the meeting was with someone he knew. 
All three realized the reasons for the meeting with me instead of 
with the powers that be. 

The concerns of these people and who they represent are valid. They 
include: 

• Lack of leadership in the south 

• An alternative to Pastora 

• Lack of coordination between several small groups 
now operating 

• The need for a new organization to mount operations 

In essence, these people are offering their services to structure and 
organize a new southern front. 



They say they represent|_ 

of some 43 men under the commanc 

camp which is under the command of the 

This las^cMip is actually under the day to d| 

named^^^^^H but overall is undewttlAaUMA of J 




which now consists 
and ahother 
people, 
a Nicaraguan 



864 



Southern Front 
April 1, 1985 
Page 2 



mi&m 



Before comiing to Washington, they said they had met with^^^^^^Band 
had talked with the Cubans in Miami who are working the otne^^ffip. 
The former is true, but they did not come representing the Cubans 
or the other camp. 




They believe the time is right to begin establishing a new structure. 
There are many people who are financially on their last legs and if 
this does not cotne through they will have to abandon the fight, so 
they are in hopes something will work out. 

Obviously, they hoped for an answer in the near future. I put them 
off and said I or someone will get back to them in the next two to 
three weeks. 

They believe they are capable, have the leadership and the knowledge 
necessary to undertake this effort. Although they will operate in 
the south, they will stay away from Pastora and not infringe on his 
territory. They will work closer to the Pacific. It was stressed they 
would work in concert with the North. 



UNCUSSIRFn 



865 



Southern Front 
April 1, 1985 
Page 3 




One last corment that they made and has been made by others: some 
of Pastora's field commanders are ready to join any side which will 
provide them with food and medicines. They have not been resupplied 
in at least 8 months. In fact, several of his commanders want to 
leave and actually aren't controlled by Pastora, he just talks with 
thetn over the radio. These include according tol 



Others who will leav 
between them have 




UPDATE 



-PRIL 9, 1985 



Sparkplug has decided to go with 
commander of the South. There wi 
which will have supervisory capacity 
made up of 



as the military 
military council 
will be 




!has broken down the camp that was under hin 
hus spread the menaroun^^ll« is waiting tor •quipntcin 
start coming in ^^^^^tK/j/^^^M ^'o^^^ i-s good and the men will 
start working in smal^teani^^^^^ 



The concern about ^^m^^ is that he drinks a fair amount and may 
surround himself with people who are in the war not only to fight, 
but to make money. People who are questionable because of past 
indiscresti ons 




82-726 0-88-29 



866 



southern Front 
April 9. 1985 
Page 4 



UNCIASSIHED 



These are just some of the people Sparkplug and others should be wary 
about. 

Whatever structure is established for the South, tight control 

must be kept on the money and resources. In the past it has been 

too easy to sell goods and too many people have learned how to 

make a good living off of the war. Money and equipment must be accoxint- 

ed for and when there are differences, examples should be made. 



Posey has an individual willing to outright donate between 70,000 
and 80,000 lbs. of medical supplies to the effort. It is a wide 
assortment of goods and someone will have to look at it to see 
what is good and what isn't. It is now located in South Carolina. 

The material can be shipped as far as Alabama by the individual who 
is going to donate it, but it has got to get from ;^labama to New 
Orleans. 

Flako is back in business. He has established himself in New Orleans 
and is working on some new scams. He is staying at the Providence 
Hotel. It is time someone paid him a visit and told him to go back 
to the hole he comes from. 



oNaissifiEo 



867 



UNCIASSIHEO 



ANALYSIS, CONCLUSIONS, AND RECCh?4SNI)ATI0NS 

FROM TEE KILIT.'J.Y COKVISSION 

REG/JiDING THE PROJECT PO?. THE RECONSTRUCTION 0? 

THE SOUTHERN PHOKT 



I. INTRODDCTION 

■II. GENERAL SITUATION OP PIECES INTOLVEB 

III. COKCLOSIONS 

IV. KECCr»'EN!)ATICNS 

V. PIKAL 



•U'f 



868 



UNCIASSIHED 



I. lOTBODOCTIOH 



With the utmost conviction, we consider that the conception of the mili- 
tary struggle in Nicara^a must be covered by two big projects s TEE 

NORTHiaiN PROJECT kllD THS SOUTHiiiN PROJECT. 

However, the strategy to carry out these two big projects complsoenta- 
rily, has had great obstacles. It is a reality that for the public 
opinion both projects are antagonic. Ve are facing today the worst 
moment; even the Southern Front lacks profound contradictions that 
polarize it among them and they strange it from the desired equili- 
brium with the Northern Front to reach a complete coordination that 
is indlepenspble to carry out a truly articulate struggle in Nicaragua 
that will permit us to comply with the first phase of directed coordi- 
nation, indispensable step so that together with the military triumph 
it may geminate THE STABILITY OF THS lOTUSE POWER. 

Due to diverse reasons, the Northern Front has managed the consolidation 
of a structure that (allows et a medium term to comply with the purpose 
of its design. It has the profeseionalization and the discipline ne- 
cessary to start to play its role as NORTHERN PROJECT and is ready 
to comply with it as compensation for the SOUTHERN one. 

The SOUTHERN FRONT, in the present circumstances, has not been able 
to even comply with the local design of military struggle and it could 
even leas be in conditions of being a factor of cop.plementary balance 
for the NORTHihN FRCOT, in order for it to be the adequate counter- 
weight, the so necessary Bower eqvilibriua for the stability of the 



869 



- 2 - 



future triumph. 



UNOJfiSire 



This Bituation places us before the URCSKT NECESSITY of putting or- 
der in the SOUTH in order to inmediately start to comply with the 
local t?8k of struggling. We must adequately structure it to deve- 
lop the role corresponding to it as necessary balance with regards 
to the NDRTHERM IBONT. 

We have to reach a scenery in which the NDRTHERM and S0UTH2RN 
projects become complementary to each other and we can thus comply 
with the first stage of strategic design that we consider as the 
moat feasible both militarily and politically. 

Ve consider that location conditions, as well as the persons basica- 
lly forming the NORTHERM project, even though politically end progra- 
matically they are still far from perfect, have been effective stra- 
tegically, with their peimission of constitution with the characteris- 
tics prograouaed in order to comply with its role as part of a more 
complex whole. Thus, we are not going to take care of the NORTH 
right now since we consider that we have time to make certain changes 
and improvements while obtaining its complementation with the SOUTH. 

The intent of an irregular operation having characteristics of hetero- 
dox struggle and design, prevented because of its audacity and little 
tangibility, adequate following of the SOnTKERN oper?tion which ia 
out of the control of the most acute analysts. Due to the lack of 



UNClASSra 



870 



- 5 - 



UNCUSSIFIED 



certain behavior and computable situations pattern, we were obliged to 
deposit all our efforts in luck or in the best case to trust. In this 
situation, almost experimental, obviously everything overflowed its 
trench, and what we have managed are disorganized pieces of a puzzle 
that new har.ds must organize taking advantage of the experience accumu- 
lated. The pieces are there. Nothing is new. We only have to follow 
the indications of the experience accumulated on orieration and persons. 

The location conditions of the SOUTHERN project are much more complex 
and out of control that may permit an operation coherently directed, 
but with more emphasis, due to the characteristics of the inein leaders. 
The legitimacy and trajectory of these leaders allowed them in time 
such an Independence that even the forming of such a heterodoxous ope- 
ration resulted in the project itself taking a course of ups and downs 
and incoherences that obliged even its programmers to make certain 
stops to review the convenience of the operation. 

The degree of crisis, especially with its main leader, led to an almost 
complete break between the main leaders and the programmers. 

It seems that the procrammers arrived at the definite conclusion that 
the risks to which the global operation was being submitted were so 
iranense, that it was preferable to dispense with the project's "indis- 
pensability", rather than to continue risking time running against the 
clock. Such a decision was hard not only for the mein leader, but it 
also debilitated greatly th» secondary actors, the entire SOUTH, and 
even the global project. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



871 



- 4 - 



WMB 



Having to fac* this type of situation, left people armed ?nd dispersed 
in the mountains, without any resources, with resentments because they 
felt abandoned by their allies, with enpty stonacha, and what is more 
serious, without having cle?.r in their minds WHO their enemy really 
is. Conditions allowed, unfortunately, that secondary actors were 
presented as responsible for such a tragedy and without authority nor 
resources to face it. Even so, there wore people who faced it, and 
these are the ones who today ar- proposing restructuring and regene- 
ration of the SOUTHEHN front. 



lifmsim 



872 



- 5 - 



IINCWSJIflEO 



II. CBK?RAL SITUATION OF POPCES INVOLVED 

A. F.S.L.N. kSKED FORCES 

The organlz&tiona coBprislnc th^ Armed Forcer of the "Prent2 Sandi- 
nlsta de Ll'ber?ci6n Nacioncl" hare develoTsed under the direction 
of eonsultents from various coomuniet countriea, but it h<u been 
Cub?n militsrlea and teehnlci^.na the ones who have assxaned the 
preparation and indoctrination of the combatsnts, as well as ca- 
rried out the war's atrategy. 

The important orgf-nizationa and units are aa followat 

- The Intematlonalista 

- The E.P.S. (EJercito Popular Sandiniata - Popular Sandinlat Army) 

- The Populer Filitisa 

- The Porcea of the Ministry of the Interior: 

- Stste Security 

- Urb2ne Sandinlat Police 

- Frontier Guard Police 

- Patriotic Military Service, and 

- Unita supporting conib?t that deaerve special conslderationt 

- Air Force 

- Armored Force 

- Artillery 

- Coaet Guard 



- APPRO XDl-TE NOT'.BER OF EFPECTTIVES: 
ONE HUNDRED TWENTY THOUSAND MEN 



IINCWSXIFIEO 



873 



- 6 



UNCWssm 



B. TRIENDIY PORCSSt THE P.D.K. (NORTHERN FRONT) 

Constituted at the end of 19811 it developed during the first two 
years a eporadle frontier war with no slgniflc?jit accovnllshnentB. 
In 1984, It Bt?rted a deep end on stant vexation cpwpalgn against 
Nicaragua's Northern Departments, thus obliging the P. S.L.N, to 
engage great quantities of human and logistic resources. 

Even if it has been this orgF.nization the one that has carried the 
war's continuity and weight, it has not been able to politically 
capltElize the efforts of its combatants, due to the negative 
shadow that has been projected over its bodies of greater hierar- 
chy for some reason or another. 

AFFROXIM.*.TE NUMBER OF CCMBATANTS: 

PROM EIGHT TO TEN THOUSAND KtSN. 

THE SOUTHERN FRONT i 

Formed in April 1982, this group awakened at the beginning a series 
of expectations and hopes, because of the prestige of its leaders 
and inteimedlPte bodies, which are mostly ex-combat?nts a^inst 
the Somoza regime and old Sandlnlsts with a clear democratic orien- 
tation. 

The meslanlc character of its most relevant le-der Commander Eden 



iiNcwno 



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UNCussra 



PMtor» Gomel, Its personalist conception of the milit-ry strategy, 
of Its policies and administration, added to the pemanent negative 
of accepting all types of proposals for coordination with the North- 
em Front, incited the grsdual desertion of its most c?pfble colla- 
borators, and it ended up dividing the Southern Front's original 
project. 

Once this crisis was incited within the original AHDS, Commander 
Pastora continued commltin^ errors continuously in the c?rrying 
out of his own project, errors which led him to completely lose 
the support of the intem?.tion^l community and to reduce almost 
to extinction his men's fighting cspaclty. 

At the present time, there are between fo\>r and five thousrud men 
who are suffering all sorts of penuries, scarcities, and calami- 
ties in the Southern Zelaya area, and are exposed to a fruitless 
sacrifice as a result of any offensive opsrsitiona on the part of 
the F.S.L.N.. 



ifumim 



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III . CONCLUSIONS 



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A. The evolution of NICAS^.GUA'b case, ixslitical events and the not too 
clear attitude of the North American Government In the conversationB 
of Manzanlllo, lead us to conclude that at the present time there 
are two possible solutions in our allies' computers: 

1. N2G0TIATI0N,- with the Sandinlst Front through the "Terceristas" 
. presently in power, which in our opinion would only secure the 

communist and totalitary dictatorship, since the reel "Terceris- 
tas", with clear, democr?.tlc ideals are living in exile since 
they were betrayed just like all nicer-guans who fought against 
Soffloza's family dictatorship. 

2. RADICAL ELIKIKVTION OF THE SANDINIST FRONT through a mili- 
tary operation which would have F.Q.N, as the spear's edge and 
which would count with the ssupport of the Central American 
countries that are being directly threatened by the Intrinsic 
expansioniam of Nicaragua's Marxist-Lenninist Revolution. 

This operation, which would need approval from the Organization 
of American States and of the Western World's International So- 
cial-Democratic, Christlan-Denocratic, and Liberal organizations, 
would also need internal supports that could make more tolerable 
a consolidation period that would virtually rest in a military 
intervention. Ve arc glimpsing to perform this role the F.D.N. 's 
sectors less comritted with Somocism, leaders from the "histori- 



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cal parallels" that still drsam with old positions and ths South- 
em Front's elements that accept the necessary conditions. 

As complementary frame to the entire project, that apparently counts 
with the United Stp.tea bipartidist approval, would be the element 
we call THE FUTURS'S DiJlOCR'TIC RESiHVE, that is synthetically 
represented by persons of undisputable prestige, both inside and 
outside Hicaragua, and which will be called to participate in a 
third stage, as promoters for the restitution of a legitimately 
constituted government. 

This commission considers the eli-nination of the SOUTH£KN UtOKT 
a mistake and esteems that the existence of a Southern Kllitary 
Force is indispensable not only for a f?8ter fall of Managua's 
regime, but also to guarantee the Nicaraguan people an orderly 
transition smd without violent revenge. This guarantee will come 
from those men who, with a clean and fighting trayectory 0.gainst 
both dictatorships, will provide the present combatants with a 
real alternative in the face of the confusion in which they are 
presently caught. 

B. The comparative analysis of the Forces in conflict clearly reveals 
a substantial advantage on the psrt of the F.S.L.N., especially in 
as far as men, offensive capacity of its supporting anas and espe- 
cially in the illimited logistic capacity that its allies in the 
Communist orbit have at their disposal. 



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However, we must take into consideration that no tyranr.y has been 
able to subdue with bayonets the people who have decided to be free 
and in the case of NICARAGDA, the gera of insurrection is now clear- 
ly visibls. 

Misery and re?.l hunger, as the product of an incapable administr"-- 
tlon, repressions, and continuous violation of human rights have 
conformed a pre-insurrectional climate, that can well become a gene- 
ralized uprising, IF A COMPACT EXILE intelligently directed 
offers a real position of change to the Mic^raguan people. 

C. After three years, it h?.s been denonstrated that Eden Fastora is not 
only not capable of agglutinating, but is on the contrary a "Soli- 
tary Wolf" that destroys whatever means organisation and unity. 

B. After three years it has been demonstrated that the F.C.K. in the 
North, in spite of great legitimpte sacrifice of its combatants, 
due to its past, does not acquire "legitia?.cy" before the world, 
which is the factor that is indispensable for the stability that 
Micrxegua's future requires. 

E. It is then with real urgency t*-at all elements having true prestige 
must "Join hands" due to the investiture that their trajectory gives 
them, in order to be able to realize the unity^ unity which at the 
present tiae is being obstaculized by the fear of the two groups 
rivalizing for hepemony, thus prrducinr the oproeite effect. 



uNcussm 



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mmm 



This car. orly be neutr?lized by = rew -oliticpl-military ingredient, 
that Just like the one ve ?re rr-TVsains-, ol-'ces in evidence what In 
our opinion conatiti'tss maybe the last real, lepitirate, fnd rccep- 
table rossibillty: th?t it be us, nic-irscu'ns, the ones to decide 
our future. 



IV recow-j;m;; TICKS 



To mflint?in -nd technify the Southern ''illtPry Force, which chotild 
ouer^te in totfl coordination with the P.D.N, in the Northern Front, 
and eliininste, once and for all, all rroj-cts of T-?rallel forces in 
the 8?in2 region. 

To this effect, our alli'is must make a definite decision that can be 
sup-'.-rized ps follows': 

Revitcllre Pt the Tesent rr'>P'>nt th" F.P.S. from Its vorFt crisis, 
or confom a different structure with the exlstir^? politlc<'l-<iiili- 
tsry troops 9r.d militia rrofession^-lB "ho h=v^ indicated their 
willinsnera to incorrorote themselves to ? cle^r and coherent -pro- 
ject. 

In our opinion, Cor<r?nder Ppstora's retreat from tho erred struffrle 
will rot C9use a rower void, sine? it h^s been hie nresence what 
h?9 m?intpined until tod=v .- "-rm-ner^t vol-* of real loader-hl''. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



879 



UNCLASSIFIED 



We consid3r that the Southern Mllit?ry Forces' main niF;i'>n should 
be thst of cresting snail unite with sufficient irobillty and fifht- 
ing capacity to le?.d the war towards the Pacific cities. Tot'l nu"'- 
ber, <T"s re'iuired, prdo-^rative norms will be discur^ed once all 
there recrmrendationr. ?re e-^TOvsd. 



COKCLUSIOK 

Most of the -ecibers of this Corirision heve 8tru£'rled pj=inet P.S.L.N.'s 
totalit?ry dictatorship fron the r>orent it betreyed th" ideels &nd as- 
crifices of our f'i-JRr'rufn brothers. 

We have backed co^b't zni the nrsitions rdorted by C->'-'^''nd=r P'stor'^ 
until we thought these v;ere ori = r.tc<* tovsric "ic=r-ri.!* 'e liberation. 
However, i- th" free ';f th- ,*\\.-.ctur9 ve are in of deciding betvreen 
Kicrrgu' =nd Conr=.nder Psrtor?, ve hevr -!?de the decision which co- 
rresrondr to seneible in.->r vith ids<>ls of ?-.ThI0TISt1. 

V'e cleprly e?t:-.bli8h th?t '•■e h^'ve not su^-orted nor s'-on=or:d sny 
ty-e of rr prccheffr'nt with th" S-ii^inlst Front. ''= h=ve not aprrc- 
ved, 'ith-r, tri-e o" the rart "f ''eleg-trs t- h've c?rv--8-tion9 
with f-e S-ndj-lst Pr^rt ir. 'ica--- -,'». 



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ONCLASSIHED 



0\ir final twasition in this •stru?"!'! conti'Tii.'-? t? >■»» -if Bui-ortirf 
th? iBibitiouf drcflr? of our i^eotile of Ttroli"*? Hic+.-t-rohjp?, '.'hPt- 
ev=r f-^iT" i-'aoloy->' ic. and before becominr ppsouerrder for a new 
And norc p-lnfur version of Pif's B^y, we d<»clrre before the free 
cnuntrlea of the world Vr^t V9 r^^-rve the rirht of t'.eci'linj on 
our ovTi f-e future of '^"r Cwntry. 



Novei!ber 20, 1984, S--n Jose, Cost^ Ric" 



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TRANSCRIPT Hs,c^^^ 
OF PROCEEDINGS 

CONFIDENTIAL 

UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

dttlGblS^EIkL 

DEPOSITION OF RICHARD M. PSNA 

a 

■ TO 

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Washington, D. C. sg g -: 

■P or ?i 

Sf "^ ' - 

Monday, May 4, 1987 4f .H ; 



Ace-Federal Reporters, Inc. 

Sletiotype Reporters 

444 North Capitol Street 

Washington, DC. 20001 

(202) 347-3700 



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UNITED STATES SENATE 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



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DEPOSITION OF RICHARD M. PENA 

• Washington, D. C. 

Monday, May 4, 1987 

Deposition of RICHARD M. PENA, called for examination 
pursuant to subpoena, at the offices of the Senate Select 
Committee, Suite 901, Hart Senate Office Building, at 10:25 
a.m. before WENDY S. COX, a Notary Public within and for the 
District of Columbia, when were present: 



W. THOMAS McGOUGH, JR., ESQ. 

Associate Special Counsel 

United States Senate Select 
Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition 

THOMAS FRYMAN, ESQ. 
Staff Counsel 
KENNETH R. BUCK, ESQ. 
Assistant Minority Counsel 
United States House of 

Representatives Select 

Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 







JOSEPH B. TOMPKINS, JR., ESQ 
Sidley & Austin 
Washington, D. C. 20006 
On behalf of the Deponent 



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CONTENTS 



WITNESS 

Richard M. Pena 

by Mr. McGough 
by Mr. Tompkins 



E X H IB ITS 



PENA DEPOSITION NUMBER 

Exhibit 1 • 

Exhibit 2 

Exhibit 3 

Exhibit 4 

Exhibit 5 

Exhibit 6 

Exhibit 7 

Exhibit 8 

Exhibit 9 

Exhibit 10 

Exhibit 11 

Exhibit 12 

Exhibit 13 

Exhibit 14 

Exhibit 15 



Exhibit 16 
Exhibit 17 



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2 MR. MC GOUGH: For the record, this is the 

3 deposition of Richard Pena, pursuant to a subpoena issued by 

4 the Senate Select Committee on the Iran-Contra matter. We 

5 are present here today jointly with the representatives of 

6 the House Select Committee. I am Tom McGough. I am the 

7 associate counsel with the Senate Select Committee. Ken Buck 

8 and Tom Fryman are with the House Select Committee. Before 

9 we put the witness under oath, Mr. Tompkins, do you have 

10 anything that you want to put on the record? 

11 MR. TOMPKINS: Yes, just a few preliminary 

12 matters. I just want to make it clear for the record that 

13 Mr. Pena is here to cooperate with the investigation, but 

14 that by appearing here today he is not waiving any legal 

15 rights or privileges he may have with respect to this or any 

16 other investigation or legal proceeding. 

17 The second point is, I understand we will have a 

18 chance to review the transcript of today, which we will do. 

19 We would like to have a request on the record that we receive 

20 a copy of the transcript. My understanding is that the 

21 Committee, at least the Senate Committee, has a policy at 

22 this point of not releasing the transcript. We want to have 



'INCUSSIfM;: 



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a request outstanding to get the transcript, should that 
policy change. 

The third thing is, I would like for one of the 
counsel to state on the record the nature of the 
confidentiality of this deposition, and how the transcript 
will be protected from public disclosure. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I can take care of that for the 
Senate Committee and perhaps defer to Tom on the House. The 
Senate rules provide that the transcript of this deposition 
and the documents submitted in accordance with the subpoenas 
are maintained as confidential Committee records . They are 
maintained in files marked "Committee sensitive." They will 
not be revealed outside the context of the Committee absent a 
majority vote of the Committee itself. Neither the 
transcript nor information contained in the transcript. 

MR. FRYMAN: Under the House rules, the 
transcripts of the deposition and materials produced in 
response to the subpoena are treated as confidential 
materials, and they are not publicly available. 

I would also note for the record that there has 
been a House subpoena also served, and the witness is 
appearing here today pursuant to the House subpoena as well 



UNCUSSIEe ... 



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1 as the Senate subpoena. 

2 MR. MC GOUGH: With that in mind, Mr. Pena, I am 

3 going to ask you some questions after we put you under oath. 

4 If at any point you don't understand a question or you want 

5 I some clarification, just stop me and I will try to make it as 

6 clear for you as I can. 

7 MR. TOMPKINS: Before you do that, can I ask one 

8 other question. 

9 MR. MC GOUGH: Sure. 

10 MR. TOMPKINS: Am I right, when you tuMi finished 'J^ 

11 your questioning, if I would like to ask Mr. Pena some 

12 questions, I will be able to do that? 

13 MR. MC GOUGH: Yes, you may, that's fine. 

14 MR. TOMPKINS: Thank you. 

15 MR. MC GOUGH: Actually, I will finish my 

16 questions. Ken and Tom may have some questions. If you have 

17 anything you would like to clarify, please feel free. Would 

18 the reporter please swear the witness, please. 

1 9 Whereupon , 

20 RICHARD PENA 

21 was called as a witness and, having first been duly sworn, 

22 was exiunined and testified as follows: 



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1 EXAMINATION 

2 I BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

3 Q Mr. Pens, I am going to show you what has been 

4 ] marked as Deposition Exhibit 1. I will provide a copy to you 

5 ' and your counsel. It's a subpoena from the Senate Select 

6 Committee requiring your appearance on May 4, 10:00 a.m., has 

7 attached to it a list of documents or a list of documents 

8 I which we request that you bring. 

9 (Pena Exhibit 1 identified.) 

10 MR. HC GOUGH: As I understand it, I believe, 

11 Mr. Tompkins, I believe you accepted service of this subpoena 

12 for Mr. Pena. I an not sure exactly how it was served. 

13 MR. TOMPKINS: That's correct. 

14 I MR. MC GOUGH: Let the record reflect that last 

15 week we received via Mr. Tompkins documents in compliance 

16 with this subpoena, as well as in compliance with an earlier 

17 subpoena issued to Cassidy & Associates, custodian of record, 

18 which I will have marked as Deposition Exhibit 2. 

19 (Pena Exhibit 2 identified.) 

20 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

21 Q Mr. Pena, to the best of your knowledge, have you 

22 produced to the Committee the documents responsive to this 



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subpoena in accordance with the letter from Mr. Tompkins to 
the Committee that accompanied the documents? 

A Yes. 

Q Could you tell me your educational background, 
please. 

A 

Q 

A 

Q 

A 



B.A., Pan American University. 
I am sorry, what university? 

B.A., Pan American University, Edinburg, Texas. 
What year was that? 

'78. Attended graduate school at American 
University from 1980 through 1984. 

Q What did you study at American? 
A I was working on a Ph.D. in international 
business. 

Q Were you a full-time student or were you also 
employed? 

A Part-time student. 

Q Where were you employed, let's begin 1978, where 
were you employed — 

A I was en iii i e mt)luj | iu e i i» in '78, worked for my 

i 
family. I came to Washington in 1979, went to work for the j 

I 
House of Representatives, the doorkeeper's office. I went to I 






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work for the sergeant at arms office in March — April of 
1980, and worked for the foreign affairs Coiranittee August of 
'82 through October of '85. 

Q Where were you employed after October of '85? 

A Cassidy & Associates. 

Q What is Cassidy & Associates? 

A It's a government relations consulting firm. 

Q Where are its offices? 

A 655 15th Street Northwest, Suite 1100, Washington, 



D.C. 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 
A 

Q 

A 

Q What is your official position with Cassidy & 
Associates? 

A I am an associat*. 

Q Can you give me just general description of your 



What is your business telephone number? 
347-0773, area code is 202. 
What is your home address? 

Your date of birth? 



Tour Social Security Number. 




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1 job, your work for them? 

2 A We are a government relations consulting firm, a 

3 lobbying firm. 

4 Q Do you specialize in any particular areas for 

5 ' Cassidy & Associates? 

6 j A Foreign aid, foreign policy, international trade. 

7 Q How many associates are there at Cassidy & 

8 Associates? 

9 A There are seven of us — eight of us maybe — 

10 yes. 

11 Q Gerry Cassidy, is that the Cassidy of Cassidy & 

12 associates? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Mr. Pena, I want to direct your attention to 

15 approximately early 1986, and ask you if at or about that 

16 time you came into contact or had any contact with Richard 

17 Miller of International Business Communications? 

18 A Tes . 

19 Q How long have you known Mr. Miller? 

20 A I am not certain. I met him when I worked on the 

21 Hill. Could have been sometime in 1984. 

22 Q When you met him, was he then affiliated with 



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1 International Business Cononunications? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q Did there come a time when Mr. Miller — when you 

4 began to explore the possibility of working with Mr. Miller 

5 in a government consulting role, that is a role, a lobbying 

6 role or a public relations role, when Cassidy & Associates 

7 began to explore that possibility, I should say? 

8 A When? 

9 Q Yes . 

10 A It was late January or early February, 1986. 

11 Q Can you tell me how that opportunity presented 

12 itself or how that cane about? 

13 A He called me and asked me if I would be interested 

14 I in representing a group, I didn't remember if he gave me the 

15 group's name or not, who would be working for the $100 

16 million aid to the democratic resistance forces. 

17 Q Did you follow up on that? 

18 A Yea. 

19 Q Did you ultimately find out who that group was 

20 that was working on that aid package? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q Who was that? 



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1 A National Endowment for Preservation of Liberty. 

2 1 Q In the course of following up on that, did you 

3 come into contact with a man by the name of Carl Channell? 

4 A Yes . 

5 Q Can you tell me who at Cassidy & Associates was 

6 involved in the contacts with them. National Endowment for 

7 the Preservation of Liberty? 

8 A For the lobbying in $100 million in aid? 

9 Q Yes, that's right. 

10 A Myself and Gerry Cassidy. 

11 Q What did Miller or Channell or NEPL ask you to do 

12 or propose to do? 

13 A They asked me to assist them in securing the $100 

14 million in aid by lobbying the Congress. 

15 Q Did Cassidy & Associates ultimately consummate an 

16 agreement with them to assist in that regard? 

17 A No. 

18 Q Pardon me? 

19 A No . 

20 Q Why not? 

21 A We didn't come to an agreement on what had to be 

22 done, on the terms of how we felt the contract that we would 



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1 ask them to be signed with us should be fashioned. 

2 Q Can you recall what the disagreement over terms 

3 was? 

4 A I mentioned the fee was one, and who would develop 

5 the correct strategy for the ultimate SlOO — developmental 

6 strategy for the $100 million. Those two issues. 

7 Q When did the negotiations cease? 

8 A March, April, sometime in there. 

9 Q Did you continue to have contact with Mr. Miller 

10 after that time? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Do you see Mr. Miller purely on a professional 

13 basis, or do you also see him on a social basis as well? 

14 A Well, it's hard to differentiate, because I have 

15 seen him at receptions that we have been invited to. I don't 

16 know if you consider that social or not. But I dealt with 

17 him on a profesaional basis, mainly. 

18 Q Did there come a time when you proposed or 

19 contacted or spoke to Mr. Millar about the possibility of one 

20 of your clients providing armaments to the democratic 

21 resistance forces in Nicaragua? 

22 A Yes. 




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Q Could you tell me how that came about? 

MR. TOMPKINS: Just for clarification, the 
question was one of your clients, meaning a client of 
Mr. Pena? 

MR. MC GOUGH: Granted there's an ambiguity in 
there. We can follow up on that. If we can identify the 
client, we will ask him who the client was. 

MR. TOMPKINS: The problem is I am not sure it was 
a client. It was a firm, but he can clarify that if you give 
him a chance. 

MR. MC GOUGH: All right, sure. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Q Can you tell me how that came about? 
A What, what Joe just talked about or — 
Q How the proposal that you made to Miller came 
about . 

A We were at a reception for the democratic 
resistance forces, I think right after they had — during the 
time or right after they had received the $100 million vote 
in the House, which is the most critical vote. It had not 
been appropriated — it would have been appropriated in the 
CR, and in a conversation that I had with him at that 



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1 reception, I talked to him about the possibility of having 

2 the democratic resistance forces purchase military hardware. 

3 Q Why did you talk to Miller about that? 

4 A I felt that what I had seen of Miller, in working 

5 with the group, he seemed to have had a very good working 

6 ! relationship with them. 

7 Q With whom? 

8 A With the democratic resistance forces. 

9 Q Had you ever discussed with Mr. Miller, prior to 

10 that reception, where the Contras were purchasing their 

11 weapons or how they were purchasing their weapons? 

12 A No. 

13 Q Did you have any reason to believe that his 

14 contact with the Contras was anything more than a public 

15 relations contact? 

16 A Not at that time. 

17 Q Did you come to an understanding — did you come 

18 to a different understanding at a later time? 

19 A After I read it in the newspaper. 

20 Q Tell me as best you can recollect how the 

21 conversation between you and Mr. Miller proceeded at that 

22 reception. 



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1 A I had mentioned to him that $70 million o£ aid, 

2 military aid, would go very quickly, would be quickly 

3 consumed, if it was purchased at U.S. military rates, and 

4 that there were other suppliers who could supply the same 

5 I type of equipment that was needed for much less . 

6 Q What did he say? 

7 A He was very interested in it. He asked me to 

8 follow up, that he wanted to talk about it. He would let me 

9 know if something could be done. 

10 Q All right. How did you leave it at that 

11 reception? Who was to do what? 

12 A I think he called me back and asked for a letter 

13 to be sent with names and telexes and a list of what was 

14 available. 

15 Q Did you, in fact, send them the letter? 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Between the time you first broached this with 

18 Mr. Miller at the reception, and the time you ultimately sent 

19 that letter, you have identified a telephone call from 

20 Mr. Miller. Did you have any ~ to the best of your 

21 recollection, did you have any other conversations or 

22 correspondence with him regarding that deal? 



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A We may have talked about it once after I sent him 
the letter, in conjunction with other things we were talking 
about. As a follow-up, that I mentioned, I asked about it. 
I never heard anything else from him. 

Q What was your understanding of what Mr. Miller 
would do with the information provided to him? 

A He told me that he would talk to the right people 
in the administration. 

Q Are those his words? 

A No, I am paraphrasing. He said he would discuss 
this issue with the people in administration who were 
involved, and the logistics of the military assistance 
program for the Contras . 

Q Did he specify those people any further? 

A No. 

Q Did he indicate how he should be compensated for 
that? 

A There was — the letter I sent, there was a spread 
on what the manufacturers would charge for the material, and 
what we would earn on it. 

Q You say "what we." "We" is whom? 

A Myself and Richard Miller. 



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Q Let me go back and clarify a point Mr. Tompkins 
raised earlier. In pursuing this transaction with 
Mr. Miller, were you acting as an employee of Cassidy & 
Associates or were you acting in your personal capacity? 

A I would have to say that I saw a business 
opportunity that was related to a group of people that I had 
known in Chile and in Uruguay. That if I would have been 
helpful to them in bringing them business, it would be 
helpful for me in the future to do other work for them. I 
was working on this with the Chileans and Uriguayans, by 
myself, and what I know of them, and the personal 
relationship I have with both groups . 

Q I guess my question is, I am trying to break down 
— there would be a commission on these sales, is that fair 
to say? 

A Sure, it was a business proposition. 

Q Would the commission be payable — would any part 
of that commission be payable to Cassidy & Associates, or 
would the commission — 

A No. 

Q No portion of it would have been payable? 

A It would have been paid to me. 



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1 Q Was there an understanding with Mr. Miller that a 

2 ! part of that commission would be shared with him? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q How did that understanding come about? 

5 A He asked me for it. We discussed the possibility 

6 of supplying military hardware. He asked me who, how, if 

7 these people were credible and if there was a commission. 

8 Q I just want the record to be clear. Was he the 

9 first person to raise the possibility of a commission to him 

10 for the sales? If you recall. 

11 MR. TOMPKINS: That question is kind of 

12 ambiguous. 

13 THE WITNESS: I don't understand. 

14 i MR. MC GOUGH: Let me see if I can clarify it. 

15 MR. TOMPKINS: Restate it. 

16 MR. MC GOUGH: Yes. 

17 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

18 Q I think the implication from the series of 

19 questions before that was that Mr. Miller initiated the idea 

20 of him, Mr. Miller, receiving a commission for his 

21 activities. I just want — I want to see if you can 

22 recollect that, I want that to be clear in the record. If 



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1 not, then, it ought to be qualified. 

2 Do you know who initiated the idea of Mr. Miller 

3 I receiving conunission for the services he might render? 

4 MR. TOMPKINS: The question goes (asjto^ between 3573 

5 ! Mr. Miller and Mr. Pena, who initiated the idea of a 

6 commission for Miller? 

7 MR. MC GOUGH: Correct, that's right. 

8 THE WITNESS: What I remember of the conversation, 

9 at the reception, was that this could be arranged with a 

10 weapons manufacturer, and from that there was, obviously 

11 there was going to be a commission involved. 

12 Now, I think it was obvious to both of us that 

13 there was a commission, and that he would want a part of it. 

14 If that's what you are asking me. 

15 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

16 Q That's pretty much what I ena asking. I just want 

17 to specify whether you have a specific recollection that he 

18 initiated the idea of a commission or not. 

19 A I can't remember if he initiated it. But I think, 

20 again, that it was something, that there was a business 

21 proposition, where profit was the motive, and that he wanted 

22 to share in the profit. 




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1 Q Did he indicate at some time to you what corporate 

2 entity he wanted to act through in order to consummate this 

3 sale? 

4 A Yes . He gave me a name of a group that was an 

5 offshore group. 

6 Q Did you find that unusual? 

7 MR. TOMPKINS: What unusual? I just wanted 

8 clarification about what the question went to, what was 

9 unusual. If you could restate it. 

10 MR. MC GOUGH: Sure. 

11 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

12 Q My question is, did you find it unusual that he 

13 wanted you to put the deal through an offshore group? 

14 I A I may at the time, I don't remember. 

15 Q Did you ask him anything about the entity he gave 

16 you? 

17 A I am sure I did. I probably asked him, who is 

18 this. I don't remember exactly what I asked him. 

19 Q Did he ask you not to use his name or 

20 International Business Communications' name? 

21 A Again, I don't remember. He may have, but I don't 
22 



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Q What, if anything, happened as a result of your 
contact with Mr. Miller and this proposal? What happened to 
the proposal ultimately? 

A Nothing . 

Q Did you ever follow up with Mr. Miller about that 
proposal after you sent him the list? 

A As I mentioned earlier, I did. When I talked to 
him on the telephone about something, I asked him where we 
were at with the proposal. 

Q What did he say, if you recall? 

A He was looking into it — he didn't say no. I 
don ' t remember exactly what he said . 

Q After that one attempt to follow up, did you 
follow up again with it? 

A I may have. I may have, because we talked on the 
telephone. I may have asked him. I may have asked him 
several times, but I don't remember. I mean, I talked to him 
on the phone several times. 

Q Have you had any — did you have any other 
occasions to communicate on a professional level with 
Mr. Miller other than the NEPL proposal and this proposal to 
sell arras or to sell arms to the Contras? I mean, do you 



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1 have any other deals or business relations with him? 

2 A We discussed, with the National Endowment for 

3 Preservation of Liberty, an SDI project. We discussed with 

4 IBC a foreign aid project for international banks. 

5 We may have had a discussion w i> »h the government 

6 of Panama, again related to foreign aid. 

7 Q Let's see if we can put a time frame on any of 

8 these. The SDI discussions, do you recall when that would 

9 have been? 
i 

10 I A That would have been through National Endowment 

11 for Preservation of Liberty, would have been some time after 

12 we talked to them about the resistance group. I don't 

13 remember; March, April. 

14 Q All right. 

15 A Then, after that, it was IBC with the banks, that 

16 would have been auimner, fall, and then the discussion with 

17 Panama would have been late fall, early winter, '86. 

18 Q First of all, let's identify the entities that 

19 were going to supply the arms, according to your proposal. 

20 You mentioned Chile. What was the name of the company in 

21 Chile? 

22 A Industries Cardoen. 



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1 Q Might have to spell that for the reporter. And 

2 the other company was what? 

3 A Monte-Paz in Uruguay. 

4 MR. TOMPKINS: Did the question go to entities 

5 I that were going to supply weapons, did you say? 

6 MR. MC GOUGH: If I did, what I want to do is 

7 restate it to include the companies involved in the 

8 transaction proposed to Mr. Miller. I think that's probably 

9 I a little more accurate. 

10 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

11 Q To your knowledge, did either Cardoen or Monte-Paz 

12 actually sell any materials to the Contras? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Mr. Pena, let me take you through some of the 

15 documents that have been supplied to us pursuant to the 

16 subpoena. Some of them, as you know, are in Spanish. I am 

17 going to ask you, if you could, to give us some 

18 translations. But some are also in English, which we ought 

19 to be able to do fairly expeditiously. Let's have this 

20 marked as Deposition Exhibit 3. 

21 (Pena Exhibit 3 identified.) 
22 



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1 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

2 Q Do you recognize this exhibit? 

3 A Yes . 

4 Q What is it? 

5 A It's a memo to Gerry Cassidy from my legislative 

6 assistant, letting him know that I was in Chile, talking to 

7 ■ Cardoen about the development of their attack helicopter for 

8 Third World use. 

9 Q How long have you had a relationship with Cardoen 

10 in reference to this? I mean, if this memorandum helps you 

11 place the date? 

12 A I met the Cardoen people who run Cardoen socially 

13 several years ago, I guess in '84 somewhere, I was playing 

14 I polo in Chile, and met them at that time. 

15 Q When did you first approach them about engaging in 

16 a business transaction? 

17 A Probably April 16. In April of '86, when I was in 

18 Chile. 

19 Q So this memorandum appears to be written at 

20 approximately the time that you first began business dealings 

21 with Cardoen? 

22 A Yes. 



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1 Q I notice there that it refers to helicopters. 

2 A Yes . 

3 Q Your ultimate proposal to Mr. Miller involved 

4 other armaments, other than helicopters. Can you tell me 

5 when you began to discuss with Cardoen the possibility of 

6 supplying small arms or that sort of thing to the Contras? 

7 A That's two different things. 

8 MR. TOMPKINS: May we go off the record? 

9 ' MR. MC GOUGH: Yes. 

10 (Discussion off the record.) 

11 THE WITNESS: Let me see if I can put this in the 

12 correct context. This is a separate issue from the small 

13 arms. 

14 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

15 Q I understand that. I guess «^at I am saying is 

16 what I want to get is the evolution of the relationship. 

17 A Let me give you an idea of what Cardoen is. 

18 Q All right. 

19 A Cardoen is major weapons producer. Third World 

20 weapons producer. It is currently developing an attack 

21 helicopter for the Third World. I had talked to them about 

22 the development of this helicopter for use in Central 



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1 America, which they were very aware of. They knew that it 

2 was going to be impossible to spend research and development 

3 I funds on that helicopter and then sell it to Central American 

4 countries, African countries. Middle Eastern countries, and 

5 be able to recoup their expense. So they asked me if there 

6 was a way to have the U.S. military establishment purchase 

7 the helicopter for the Army for then use in the military 

8 i assistance program or the FMS program, which is foreign 

9 military sales. That's what this was about. 

10 Q All right. 

11 A At the same time, Cardoen is a major — probably 

12 the second largest producer of cluster bombs, hand grenades, 

13 Claymore mines. It produces tanks, wheel tanks, on-track 

14 tanks, wheel tanks, produces some small ammunitions for 5.56 

15 and 7.62 rounds. 

16 Q Going back to my question, was it on this initial 

17 trip to Chile that you discussed with Cardoen not only the 

18 helicopter deal but also the provision of smaller arms — of 

19 the other types of armaments? 

20 A No. 

21 Q How did that evolve? 

22 A During the summer of '86, when the authorization 



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1 and the Intelligence Act was passed, and the $100 million was 

2 available, after that I sent Luis Soimners a telex asking him 

3 what he thought of their ability to supply military weapons 

4 for the democratic resistance forces. 

5 Q Who is Mr. Sommers? 

6 A He is their marketing manager, international 

7 marketing manager. 

8 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as Exhibit 

9 2, if we do — I am sorry, Exhibit 4. 

10 (Pena Exhibit 4 identified.) 

11 BY MR. MC GOUGHi 

12 Q I apologize for the copy, but it's pretty accurate 

13 from the copy we. received. This appears to be a telex dated 

14 on or about June 9 of '86 from you to Mr. Sommers; is that 

15 fair to say? 

16 A Uh-huh. 

17 Q Can you tell me, this is the one that we have not 

18 been able to read with any certainty, but can you tell me 

19 what this regarded? 

20 A That telex is in reaction to this, that when the 

21 Cardoen people and I started discussions, I said I would look 

22 into the MAP and FMS programs to see if there was an 




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opportunity to develop a strategy that could be implemented 
in Congress for the authorization of appropriations of funds 
for the purchase of Third World attack helicopters as they 
were developing. 

Q Might be a little bit time-consuming, but I think 
it's worth doing. Could you give us a translation of each of 
the three paragraphs? 

A I can't read it. It's basically saying thank you 
very much for the meeting we had. Second paragraph is 
basically looking into the defense — our U.S. military 
defense groups to see what is competitive in helicopters; and 
the third paragraph is Cardoen could probably be a supplier 
of Third World military hardvtare if we could develop the 
strategy for that end. 

MR. MC GOUGH: This is Exhibit 5. 

(Pena Exhibit 5 identified.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGHt 

Q Could you identify trtiat has been marked as 
Deposition Exhibit 5, please. 

A It's another telex to Luis Sommers from myself 
informing him that the House of Representatives had approved 
the $100 million in aid to the democratic resistance forces, 



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1 of which $70 million would be used for military assistance. 

2 Q It includes certain priorities, does it not, as 

3 to — 

4 A What, at that time, was considered priorities by 

5 I the administration. 

6 Q What were those priorities? 

7 A Shoulder-fired missiles, RPG-7, grenade launchers, 

8 rifles, grenades, radios. 

9 Q What was your source for the administration's 

10 priorities regarding armaments? 

11 A The Washington Post and the New York Times. 

12 Q At the time you drafted this telex, had you had 

13 any direct contact with the Contras or with Mr. Miller 

14 regarding this issue? 

15 A It was all in the same time frame. I don't 

16 remember exact dates, but it could have been parallel, could 

17 have been a couple of days after. 

18 Q Did you discuss these priorities with Mr. Miller? 

19 A What do you mean? 

20 Q The telex refers to priority items from the — 

21 according to the administration. You indicated you got that 

22 information from the Washington Post or the New York Times. 



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1 Did you discuss those priorities or did Mr. Miller 

2 give you any inforroation regarding those priorities? 

3 A Mr. Miller didn't give me any information on 

4 military hardware. 

5 Q The next paragraph refers, I believe, to some 

6 concern about the direct involvement of the Department of 

7 Defense — 

8 A Yes . 

9 Q — in the administration of the program. 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q What was your source for that information? 

12 A When I worked on the Hill, the Department of 

13 Defense was always concerned about their role in the 

14 democratic resistance forces program, that comes from me. 

15 Q Would you give us a translation of — there is 

16 paragraph number 2, please. 

17 A He probably asked me for something in Chile that I 

18 had not been able to get him the information. 

19 Q Can you give us a translation of that? 

20 A That's what it is. 

21 MR. TOMPKINS: I think he would like just a 

22 paraphrase. 



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1 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

2 Q Yes, could you give me a little more. 

3 A I said " I am sorry I haven't had the opportunity 

4 to send you the information regarding our conversation in 

5 • Chile. I have been out of town and I have been unable to 

6 prepare an analysis as you wanted, but I will try to do it 

7 sometime in the near future." 

8 Q That would refer up to item 2 in the caption; 

9 would it not? 

10 A Item 2. 

11 Q If you look up in the "re" at the very top. 

12 A Right. 

13 Q What is the translation of that item? 

14 A "Information regarding defense." 

15 Q So whatever the conversation was that you had with 

16 Mr. Sommers — 

17 A It would probably have to do with the MAP and FMS 

18 programs and how to develop the strategy for their attack 

19 helicopter. 

20 Q The third paragraph refers, does it not, to a 

21 meeting with Bell Helicopters? 

22 A Yes. 




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1 Q What was the purpose of that meeting? 

2 A Bell Helicopters is very interested in what 

3 I Cardoen is doing. They wanted to know what I had found out, 

4 I what Cardoen was doing on their attack helicopter. 

5 Q Just so the record is clear, if you look at the 

6 second page, I believe- that telex was delivered on or about 

7 July 10 of '86; is that right? 

i 

8 A Uh-huh. 

9 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark this as the next 

10 exhibit. 

11 (Pena Exhibit 6 identified.) 

12 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

13 Q Looking at Deposition Exhibit 6, Mr. Pena, do you 

14 I recognize this telex? 

15 A It's a telex from Luis Sommers to me. 

16 Q It's dated July 11, 1986, I believe? 

17 A It's July 14, 1986. 

18 Q I was looking at the — maybe two dates on it. 

19 A I am looking at July 14 — 

20 Q I am looking at the one below your name on the 

21 telex, July 14, 1986. Could you give us a translation of 

22 that telex, please. 



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1 A He said, "Even though it's difficult now for you, 

2 it's not impossible to try to put some of our products within 

3 the SlOO million that are part of the defense for the 

4 anti-Sandinista group. Even though it's a small quantity, it 

5 I would help us in our future business negotiations . When you 

6 have time to give me the memo, I would appreciate having it. 

7 We continue to want to work together on this issue. We are 

8 very interested with the Bell Helicopter meeting, and we 

9 would lilce to know more about it." 

10 Q If I could just refer to it for a moment, the memo 

11 refers to, or paragraph 1 opens up, something to the effect 

12 of while difficult or while there may be some difficulty, 

13 it's not impossible for you. What did you understand that to 

14 refer to? 

15 A It's not impossible to get their products 

16 purchased by the democratic resistance forces. 

17 Q What was he referring to regarding the difficulty? 

18 A I imagine he felt that it was going to be 

19 difficult. 

20 Q Had you discussed any obstacles with him that you 

21 can recall? 

22 A You have to realize also that this man is a man 



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1 who deals with military hardware every day, and he knows how 

2 i difficult it is to try to sell military hardware when a 

3 government is involved in giving their own products to a 

4 group. That means your prices have to be lower, there's a 

5 lot of competition involved. 

6 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark this Exhibit 7. 

7 (Pena Exhibit 7 identified.) 

8 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

9 Q This is a telex, is it not, dated July 23, 1986, 

10 from you to Mr. Sommers, responding to his telex of July 147 

11 A No. Well, I don't think it's a response to his 

12 telex. The' telex says that I Just had a meeting with a group 

13 that was interested in purchasing military hardware from 

14 I Cardoen. 

15 Q Does it say you just had or are about to have a 

16 meeting with him? 

17 . A I Just had. 

18 Q That is the first sentence. What is the balance 

19 of the telex there? 

20 A I asked him for a list as soon as possible. 

21 Q A list of what? 

22 A Of military hardware they had available and the 



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1 price. 

2 Q What is the group that is referred to here with 

3 whom — to what meeting does that refer? 

4 A It would probably be that I had the discussion 

5 I with Rich Miller, which is as best as I can remember. 

6 1 Q So if that is, in fact, the reference you were 

7 making, the meeting would have taken place sometime prior to 

8 July 23 of '86? 

9 A It could have been taken place that day. 

10 MR. MC GOUGH: Would you mark this as Exhibit 8. 

11 (Pena Exhibit 8 identified.) 

12 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

13 Q Could you identify what has been marked as Exhibit 

14 8, please. 

15 A It's a memo from me, to Adolpho Calero and Bosco 

16 Mateunoros. 

17 Q It's a price list of — 

18 A Military hardware that was available from 

19 Cardoen. 

20 Q Had you ever met, up to this point, Mr. Calero or 

21 Matamoros? 

22 A Yes. 






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Q In what context? 

A What do you mean what context? 

Q How had you met them? 

A I met Calero when I was in Nicaragua, I don't 
remember, '82, when he was still the head of Coca-Cola in 
Nicaragua. I met Bosco Matamoros right after that time, 
probably, in that summer of '82. 

Q Did you present this list directly to them? 

A I gave the list to Bosco to give it to Adolpho. 

Q Would you have done that on or about August 12? 

A Probably that same day. 

Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Matamoros 
about the list? 

A Sure . 

Q What I want to know is how this came about. We 
have talked about how you dealt with Mr. Miller, but how did 
it come about? 

A Again, it was a business deal. It was an 
opportunity, and I probably felt that I wasn't getting much 
response from IBC and Mr. Miller, and I watrt to Bosco 
Matamoros and Calero to see if they had heard anything about 
this opportunity. 



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1 Q Could you have presented this to Mr. Calero and 

2 Mr. Matamoros simultaneously -- could you have presented it 

3 to Mr. Calero and Mr. Matamoros simultaneously to the time 

4 you presented it to Mr. Miller? 

5 A No. I gave it to them after — after Rich Miller 

6 asked me to send it to World Counselors, or whatever. I 

7 I think that was it. 

8 MR. MC GOUGH: Mark Exhibit 9, please. 

9 (Pena Exhibit 9 identified.) 

10 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

11 Q I will show you what has been marked as Exhibit 9, 

12 a letter dated August 15, 1986, to World Affairs Counselors, 

13 Inc., from Richard Pena. Attached is a price list 

14 substantively identical to the price list attached to or 

15 reflected on Exhibit 8. 

16 Now, is this Exhibit 9 the letter that you sent to 

17 Mr. Miller proposing that transaction? 

18 A Yes, it is. 

19 Q I believe it's dated August 15, 1986; is that 

20 right? 

21 A That's correct. 

22 Q Which would be three days after the memorandum to 



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Mr. Calero and Mr. Matamoros dated August 12, 1986; is that 
right? 

A That ' s correct . 

Q Can you explain, perhaps, why the letter to 
Mr. Miller is dated after the memo to Mr. Calero and 
Mr. Matamoros? 

A It may have taken me a couple of days to write the 
letter, I don't know. 



right? 



To write which letter? 

To write this letter. 

That is Exhibit 9, the August 15 letter; is that 



7es. 



A 

Q I believe you said earlier that you presented the 
list to Mr. Calero and Mr. Matamoros, only after you had 
presented the deal to Richard Miller? 

A Yes. I talked, if you recall, I talked to Miller 
about this at a reception. Then I took days to get 

w 

X everything put together. So Mr. Miller knew about this 
N before I imilieii nil Calero and Bosco Matamoros. That's what 
I aro referring to. 

Q Do you know if you provided Mr. Miller with this 




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1 information, that is the information reflected in the August 

2 15 letter, prior to August 15? 

3 A I don't recall that I did. We may have talked 

4 about it by telephone. But I don't recall that I did. 

5 Q Now, this letter is addressed — that is, Exhibit 

6 9 is addressed to World Affairs Counselors in Georgetown, 

7 Grand Cayman Island. Did you, in fact, mail this to the 

8 Grand Caymans? 

9 A I don't remember. I may have mailed it, and I may 

10 have sent it over by messenger to Rich Miller. 

11 Q I notice on there that Mr. Miller is not reflected 

12 as an addressee on the letter. 

13 A That's correct. 

14 Q Was that at his request or was that your own? 

15 A I imagine it was at his request if I sent it to 

16 "Dear Sirs. " 

17 Q It reflects in the last paragraph, "in accordance 

18 with our previous discussions,' and that's a plural word. 

19 Would that have been a discussion at the party and the 

20 reception — over the telephone, as best you can imagine? 

21 A I would imagine. 

22 Q It says, in accordance with those previous 




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1 I discussions, we anticipate that any commissions from the sale 

2 of the product will be divided equally among the corporations 

3 involved in the placement of that product. 

4 Do you recall now discussing commissions with 

5 1 Mr. Miller in either of those conversations? Does that 

6 refresh your recollection. Does that give you any more 

7 specificity on your discussions of commissions with him? 

8 A No, we discussed that. Again, as I told you, we 

9 I discussed that as part of our discussion at the reception. 

I 

10 Q Do you recall, was the division of commissions to 

11 be 50/50, or do you recall if you got to that point? 

12 A We would split them equally. So I guess that 

13 -would have been 50/50. I do not recall saying 50 percent. 

14 Q You refer to corporations, plural, one of those 

15 corporations obviously would have been World Affairs 

16 Counselors, Inc.; is that a fair statement? 

17 A I would imagine. 

18 Q Do you know what the other corporation or 

19 corporations would have been? 

20 A Well, Cardoen and Monte-Paz. Cardoen and 

21 Monte-Paz has to be paid. 

22 Q Would they be paid a commission or would they be 



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1 j paid — 

2 : A No. 

I 

I 

3 i Q You are saying here, I don't want to confuse you. 

4 i You are saying that your commissions are going to be split 

5 i equally among corporations. I want to deteirmine what 

6 ! corporations were dividing the commissions. 

7 I A Well, I have no idea. I don't know whether I 

8 i wanted to make it sound right the way I drafted the letter. 

9 I I really don't recall. 
i 

10 I Q Did you keep a copy of this letter? 

11 j A No, I didn't. 

12 ! Q Why not? 

13 A Well, bad staff work. It got lost either in the 

14 I machine or we didn't keep it in the file. 

15 Q Did you or anyone at Cassidy & Associates make a 

16 I conscious decision not to keep a copy of this? 

17 A No. That was my fault. 

18 MR. TOMPKINS: Just so your question and answer is 

19 clear, the fact is that this letter was not in the files of 

20 Cassidy & Associates or Mr. Pena when we looked for documents 

21 responsive to the subpoena. But that's not to say that the 

22 document wasn't there for some period of time before it was 



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1 destroyed or whatever. The implication of your question is 

2 that somebody may have destroyed it immediately or didn't 

3 keep a copy at the time, but that's not\my understanding is jjfr^ 

4 that that is not necessarily the case. 

5 MR. MC GOUGH: That's what I am trying to clear 

6 ! up. It's not an implication as to whether that occurred, was 

7 I there a conscious decision made to not keep a copy or 

8 eliminate the copy. So the answer to the question is no on 

9 that, I think. 

10 MR. TOMPKINS: The answer to the question is no. 

11 BY MR. MC GOUGHi 

12 Q Let me ask the question again. Was there a 

13 conscious decision made by anyone, to your knowledge, not to 

14 I keep a copy of this letter or to destroy any copies existing? 

15 A No. 

16 Q Mr. Pena, do you have a personal corporation 

17 through which you do business or otherwise? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Let me line Exhibit 9 up against Exhibit 8. It 

20 would appear, correct me if I am wrong, that on August 12 you 

21 submitted a price list directly to Calero and Matamoros . On 

22 August 15 you submitted a price list to Mr. Miller. 



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1 If I am again correct, you were proposing the idea 

2 of submitting it to Kr. Miller was to have the Contras 

3 purchase those arms; is that correct? 

4 A Yes. 

5 1 Q On August 15, you were promising Mr. Miller half 

6 of any commission on arms sold to the Contras; is that also 

7 correct? 

8 A Correct. 

9 Q How were you going to be able to determine whether 

10 any sales from the Contras resulted from your letter of 

11 August 15 to Mr. Miller or from your memorandum of August 12 

12 directly to Mr. Calero and Mr. Matamoros? 

13 A I was expecting to hear back from Rich Miller if 

14 there was going to be any interest in this, and to Calero, he 

15 would have also gotten back to me and told me if there was 

16 interest in it. So I would have been able to know who was 

17 ctoing to be involved. 

18 Q In other words, Mr. Miller was to act as a conduit 

19 for the return information as well. That is, an order or 

20 something. Let's say there was an order for eight cluster 

21 bombs. Did you envision that order as coming back to you 

22 through Mr. Miller? 





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1 A No, no, not the order. I would imagine they would 

2 I have gotten back to me if they were interested. The way the 

3 letter is written is they were going to — Monte-Paz and 

4 Cardoen, the persons who to contact, but I know people in 

5 ! both places. 

6 Q I guess my question — perhaps it's just confusion 

7 on my part. But normally, when you are dealing — let's move 

8 out of the arms area . But when one deals with a 

9 manufacturing representative or something like that, where a 

10 commission is payable for placement of an order, it would be 

11 unusual for the manufacturer to contact the customer directly 

12 and propose a sale, because that would bypass the 

13 manufacturer's rep. It appears to me you have offered 

14 Mr. Miller a commission and then also contacted the ultimate 

15 purchaser directly in a way that might at least confuse who 

16 was entitled to a commission and who wasn't. Did you think 

17 about that at all when you did this? 

18 A No. It was, again, a business proposition. I was 

19 trying to get to the people who were involved in this, and I 

20 contacted both groups. 

21 Q At that time, did you have any understanding how 

22 the commission would be calculated or how it would be paid? 




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1 A We hadn't even gotten to that point. What I 

2 wanted to do was to get to see if they were going to be 

3 interested, and to contact Monte-Paz and Cardoen. 

4 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as Exhibit 

5 I 10. 
1 

6 (Pena Exhibit 10 identified.) 

7 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

8 Q Can you tell me what this is, Exhibit 10, that 

9 is. 

10 A This is a telex that I sent to Luis Sommers 

11 regarding what I had offered to World Counselors, Rich Miller 

12 and Adolpho Calero and Bosco Hatamoros. 

13 Q It would have gone out approximately August 20 of 

14 '86, is that the date at the bottom? 

15 A Yea. 

16 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as Exhibit 

17 11. 

18 (Pena Exhibit 11 identified.) 

19 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

20 Q I have just handed you what has been marked as 

21 Exhibit 11. Could you tell me what that is. 

22 A It's a telex from Luis Sommers to me telling me 




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that he received the telex I had sent him, and the prices on 
it, mentioned that the price is maybe a little bit high, but 
it's still possible to sell them, and he feared that that was 
where the commissions would come from. 

Q Let's take it sentence by sentence. Could you 
translate the first sentence for me, please. 

A He says he is interested in knowing what our 
progress and possibilities are with the conversations with 
the people in Washington. 

Q I believe it's the "interested party in 
Washington"? 

A Yes. 

Q Is that a fair paraphrase? All right. Let's 
translate the next two sentences, please. 

A He says we have the prices clear that you have 
quoted, even though they are somewhat high, they could work 
like that. There's no doubt that the margins give a 
possibility for whatever commissions are needed. 

Q Is the word "commissions"? 

A No, it's not — "nadios" for them is 
"commission." Do you speak Spanish? 

Q I don't, but is the word "pago extraordinario" — 



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I don't, but is that a commission or a bribe or a grease 
payment? 

A No, to me, pago extraordinario to me wn» the 
commission* from the price that came from here. I never got 
anything from Sommers asking me for a psMR or a grease 



payment, as you stated. 

Q So that was you that understood that word to refer 
to commissions? 
A Yes. 

Q Next two sentences? 

A It says we ask you to keep us informed, we are 
prepared to demonstrate or send technical information if 
necessary. 

Q And the date of that telex would be September 9 -- 
September 4 . 
September 4 — 

I have a 4 September '86 on the bottom. 
All right, I was looking at the top, where it says 
2 September '86. But at least somewhere in that 2nd, 3rd or 
4th of September. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as Exhibit 
12. 




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1 (Pena Exhibit 12 identified.) 

2 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

3 Q All right. You have been handed what has been 

4 marked as Exhibit 12. Could you identify it, please. Can 

5 1 you tell me what Exhibit 12 is. 

6 A It's a memo from me to Gerry Cassidy on potential 

7 clients that I was working on. 

8 MR. MC GOUGH: Could you mark this as Exhibit 12. 

J 

9 I think the one you mark has notes on it, so I will scratch 

10 it out. 

11 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

12 Q If you would turn to the second and third page, 

13 second page first, but it spilled over to the third page of 

14 I that memorandum. There is a reference to attempting to 

15 broker some of Cardoen's products for use by Adolpho Calero. 

16 A That's correct. 

17 Q That is the transaction that you were proposing 

18 with Mr. Miller? 

19 A And Adolpho Calero. 

20 Q It says you have also discussed assisting them ii^. 

! '" 

21 the potential joint ventures or cow«ab production agreements. 

22 A That's correct. 



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Q Could you elaborate on those? 

A Here we go back again to one issue and another 
issue, cotgmm^ production and development of helicopters for 
the program. They want to take it out of Chile, go to 
Africa, go to the Middle East, is what I was referring to 
there . 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark this as Exhibit 13. 

(Pena Exhibit 13 identified.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q I have put a red circle around a date on that one, 
but you can ignore that. 

This is a telex delivered, at the bottom, 
September 19, 1986, from you to Mr. Sommers, is it not? 

A That ' s correct . 

Q Could you give us a translation of this telex as 
well? 

A I had returned from Central America, I told him in 
Central America I had met people who I had talked about in 
April who would be interested in establishing a military 
weapons complex. I told him that I would be back probably in 
about three weeks. I would let him know what the outcome of 
that trip was. The next paragraph is that "with respect to 




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the possibility of selling your products to the government of 
the United States, I think it's a real possibility, and it's 
part of the discussion I have had in Central America." 

Q Let's back up for a minute. It's part of the 
discussions that you had in Central America? 
A Yes. 

I didn't catch the last portion. 

"It's related to the discussions I had in Central 



Q 
A 

America . 
Q 
A 



All right. What is the next paragraph? 

"I expect to be in Chile in November and I would 
like to meet with you and Cardoen during that time." 

Q The third paragraph referring to weapo