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Full text of "Report of the congressional committees investigating the Iran- Contra Affair : with supplemental, minority, and additional views"

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United States Congressional... 



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100th Congress — 1st Session • January 6-December 22, 1987 



Senate Report 

No. 216 




IRAN-CONTRA INVESTIGATION 

APPENDIX B, VOLUME 14 
DEPOSITIONS 



United States Congressional Serial Set 

Serial Number 13755 



United States Government Printing OfTice 
Washington : 1989 



Union Calendar No. 277 
100th Congress, 1st Session 
S. Rept. No. 100-216 H. Rept. No. 100-433 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the 

Iran-Contra Affair 

Appendix B: Volume 14 
Depositions 



Daniel K. Inouye, Chairman, 
Senate Select Committee 

Lee H. Hamilton, Chairman, 
House Select Committee 



U.S. Senate Select Committee U.S. House of Representatives 

On Secret Military Assistance to Iran Select Committee to Investigate 

And the Nicaraguan Opposition Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 

November 13, 1987. - Committed to the Committee of the Whole House 

on the State of the Union and ordered to be printed. 

November 17, 1987. - Ordered to be printed. 



Washington : 1988 



Bnittd 3tatts 3mate 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 

ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

WASHINGTON. DC 20510-6480 



March 1, 1988 

Honorable John C. Stennis 
President pro tempore 
United States Senate 
Washington, D.C. 

Dear Mr. President: 

We have the pleasure to transmit herewith, pursuant to 
Senate Resolution 23, Appendix B to the final Report of the 
Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition. We will submit such other volumes 
of Appendices to the Report as are authorized and as they become 
available. 



Sincerely, 




Warren B. Rudman 
Vice Chairman 



III 



U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 

SELECT COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE 

COVEflT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

UNITED STATES CAPITOL 

WASHINGTON, DC 20615 

(202) 225-7902 

March 1, 1988 



The Honorable Jim Wright 
Speaker of the House 
U, S. Capitol 
Washington, D. C. 20515 

Dear Mr . Speaker : 

Pursuant to the provisions of House Resolutions 12 and 
330 and House Concurrent Resolution 195, 100th Congress, 1st 
Session, I transmit herewith Appendix B to the Report of the 
Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair , 
House Report No. 100-433, 100th Congress, 1st Session. 

Appendix B consists of the depositions taken by the 
Select Committees during the investigation. The contents of 
Appendix B have been declassified fop-yrelease to the public. 

enely yours. 




Lee H. Hamilton 
Chairman 



V 



United States Senate 

Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance 
To Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

Daniel K. Inouye, Hawaii, Chairman 
Warren Rudman, New Hampshire, Vice Chairman 

George J. Mitchell, Maine 

Sam Nunn, Georgia 
Paul S. Sarbanes, Maryland 
Howell T. Heflin, Alabama 
David L. Boren, Oklahoma 

James A. McClure, Idaho 

Orrin G. Hatch, Utah 

William S. Cohen, Maine 

Paul S. Trible, Jr., Virginia 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 

Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

To the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 



VI 



United States House of Representatives 

Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms 
Transactions with Iran 

Lee H. Hamilton, Indiana, Chairman 
Dante B. Fascell, Florida, Vice Chairman 

Thomas S. Foley, Washington 

Peter W. Rodino, Jr., New Jersey 

Jack Brooks, Texas 

Louis Stokes, Ohio 

Les Aspin, Wisconsin 

Edward P. Boland, Massachusetts 

Ed Jenkins, Georgia 

Dick Cheney, Wyoming, Ranking Republican 

Wm. S. Broomfield, Michigan 

Henry J. Hyde, Illinois 

Jim Courter, New Jersey 

Bill McCollum, Florida 

Michael DeWine, Ohio 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



VII 



United States Senate 



Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to 
Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 



Arthur L. Liman 
Chief Counsel 
Mark A. Belnick Paul Barbadoro 

Executive Assistant Deputy Chief Counsel 

to the Chief Counsel 

Mary Jane Checchi 
Executive Director 

Lance I. Morgan 
Press Officer 

Associate Counsels 



C. H. Albright, Jr. 
Daniel Finn 
C. H. Holmes 
James E. Kaplan 
Charles M. Kerr 
Joel P. Lisker 



W. T. McGough, Jr. 
Richard D. Parry 
John D. Saxon 
Terry A. Smiljanich 
Timothy C. Woodcock 



Committee Staff 



Assistant Counsels 



Legal Counsel 
Intelligence /Foreign 

Policy Analysts 
Investigators 



Press Assistant 
General Accounting 
Office Detailees 



Security Officer 
Security Assistants 



Chief Clerk 
Deputy Chief Clerk 



Steven D. Arkin* 
Isabel K. McGinty 
John R. Monsky 
Victoria F. Nourse 
Philip Bobbitt 
Rand H. Fishbein 
Thomas Polgar 
Lawrence R. 

Embrey, Sr. 
David E. Faulkner 
Henry J. Flynn 
Samuel Hirsch 
John J. Cronin 
Olga E. Johnson 
John C. Martin 
Melinda Suddes* 
Robert Wagner 
Louis H. Zanardi 
Benjamin C. 

Marshall 
Georgiana 

Badovinac 
David Carty 
Kim Lasater 
Scott R. Thompson 
Judith M. Keating* 
Scott R. Ferguson 



Staff Assistants 



Administrative Staff 



Secretaries 



Receptionist 
Computer Center 
Detailee 



John K. Appleby 
Ruth Balin 
Robert E. Esler 
Ken Foster* 
Martin H. Garvey 
Rachel D. Kaganoff* 
Craig L. Keller 
Hawley K. 

Manwarring 
Stephen G. Miller 
Jennie L. Pickford* 
Michael A. Raynor 
Joseph D. 

Smallwood* 
Kristin K. Trenholm 
Thomas E. Tremble 
Bruce Vaughn 
Laura J. Ison 
Hilary Phillips 
Winifred A. Williams* 
Nancy S. Durflinger 
Shari D. Jenifer 
Kathryn A. Momot 
Cindy Pearson 
Debra S. Sheffield* 
Ramona H. Green 
Preston Sweet 



VIII 



Committee Members' Designated Liaison 



Senator Inouye 
Senator Rudman 

Senator Mitchell 

Senator Nunn 

Senator Sarbanes 
Senator Heflin 



Peter Simons 
William V. Cowan 
Thomas C. Polgar 
Richard H. 
Arenberg 
Eleanore Hill 
Jeffrey H. Smith 
Frederick Millhiser 
Thomas J. Young 



Senator Boren 

Senator McClure 
Senator Hatch 

Senator Cohen 

Senator Trible 



Sven Holmes 
Blythe Thomas 
Jack Gerard 
Dee V. Benson 
James G. Phillips 
James Dykstra 
L. Britt Snider 
Richard CuUen 



Part Time* 



Assistant Counsel 
Hearings Coordinator 
Staff Assistants 



Interns 



Peter V. Letsou 
Joan M. Ansheles 
Edward P. 

Flaherty, Jr. 
Barbara H. Hummell 
David G. Wiencek 
Nona Balaban 
Edward E. 

Eldridge, III 
Elizabeth J. Glennie 
Stephen A. Higginson 
Laura T. Kunian 
Julia F. Kogan 
Catherine L. Udell 



Document Analyst 

Historian 

Volunteers 



Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt 
Edward L. Keenan 
Lewis Liman 
Catherine Roe 
Susan Walsh 



*The staff member was not with the Select Committee when the Report was filed but had, during 
the life of the Committee, provided services. 



IX 



United States House of Representatives 



Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 



Majority Staff 



Special Deputy 

Chief Counsel 
Staff Counsels 



Press Liaison 
Chief Clerk 
Assistant Clerk 
Research Director 
Research Assistants 



John W. Nields, Jr. 
Chief Counsel 

W. Neil Eggleston 
Deputy Chief Counsel 

Kevin C. Miller 
Staff Director 



Charles Tiefer 

Kenneth M. Ballen 
Patrick J. Carome 
V. Thomas 

Fryman, Jr. 
Pamela J. 

Naughton 
Joseph P. Saba 
Robert J. Havel 
Ellen P. Rayner 
Debra M. Cabral 
Louis Fisher 
Christine C. 

Birmann 
Julius M. 

Genachowski 
Ruth D. Harvey 
James E. Rosenthal 



Systems 

Administrator 
Systems 

Programmer/ 

Analysts 
Executive Assistant 
Staff Assistants 



Catherine L. 

Zimmer 
Charles G. Ratcliff 
Stephen M. 

Rosenthal 
Elizabeth S. Wright 
Bonnie J. Brown 
Christina Kalbouss 
Sandra L. Koehler 
Jan L. Suter 
Katherine E. Urban 
Kristine Willie 
Mary K. Yount 



Minority Staff 



Associate Minority 

Counsel 
Assistant Minority 

Counsel 
Minority Research 

Director 



Thomas R. Smeeton 
Minority Staff Director 

George W. Van Cleve 
Chief Minority Counsel 

Richard J. Leon 
Deputy Chief Minority Counsel 



Robert W. 
Genzman 
Kenneth R. Buck 

Bruce E. Fein 



Minority Staff 
Editor/Writer 

Minority Executive 
Assistant 

Minority Staff 
Assistant 



Michael J. Malbin 

Molly W. Tully 

Margaret A. 
Dillenburg 



Committee Staff 



Investigators 



Director of Security 



Robert A. 

Bermingham 
James J. Black 
Thomas N. 

Ciehanski 
William A. Davis, 

III 
Clark B. Hall 
Allan E. Hobron 
Roger L. Kreuzer 
Donald Remstein 
Jack W. Taylor 
Timothy E. Traylor 
Bobby E. Pope 



Security Officers 



Editor 

Deputy Editor 
Associate Editor 
Production Editor 
Hearing Editors 

Printing Clerk 



Rafael Luna, Jr. 
Theresa M. Martin 
Milagros Martinez 
Clayton C. Miller 
Angel R. Torres 
Joseph Foote 
Lisa L. Berger 
Nina Graybill 
Mary J. Scroggins 
David L. White 
Stephen G. Regan 
G. R. Beckett 



Associate Staff 



Representative 
Hamilton 

Representative 
Fascell 

Representative 

Foley 
Representative 

Rodino 

Representative 

Brooks 
Representative 

Stokes 
Representative 

Aspin 



Michael H. 

Van Dusen 
Christopher Kojm 
R. Spencer Oliver 
Bert D. Hammond 
Victor Zangla 
Heather S. Foley 
Werner W. Brandt 
M. Elaine Mielke 
James J. 

Schweitzer 
William M. Jones 

Michael J. O'Neil 
Richard M. Giza 
Richard E. Clark 
Warren L. Nelson 



Representative:^ 

Boland 
Representative 

Jenkins 
Representative 

Broomfield 
Representative 

Hyde 
Representative 

Courter 
Representative 

McCollum 
Representative 

DeWine 
General Counsel to 

the Clerk 



Michael W. Sheehy 

Robert H. Brink 

Steven K. Berry 
David S. Addington 
Diane S. Doman 

Dennis E. Teti 

Tina L. Westby 

Nicholas P. Wise 

Steven R. Ross 



XI 



Contents 

Volume 14 



Preface XXI 

Hall, Wilma 1 

HasenfUs, Eugene 49 

Hirtle Jonathan, J 193 

Hooper, Bruce 267 

Hunt, Nelson Bunker 369 

Ikle, Fred C 469 

Jensen, D. Lowell 531 

Juchniewicz, Edward S 607 

Kagan, Robert W 695 

Keel, Alton G 861 

Kellner, Leon B 1025 

Kelly, John H 1 153 

Kiszynski, George 1207 



XIII 



Depositions 



Volume 1 



Airline Proprietary Project Officer. 
Alvarez, Francisco J. 
Allen, Charles. 
Arcos, Cresencio. 



Volume 2 



Volume 3 



Armitage, Richard. 
Artiano, Martin L. 
Associate DDO (CIA). 
Baker, James A., III. 
Barbules, Lt. Gen. Peter. 
Bamett, Ana. 
Bartlett, Linda June. 
Bastian, James H. 
Brady, Nicholas F. 
Brown, Arthur E., Jr. 



Byrne, Phyllis M. 
Calero, Adolfo. 
Castillo, Tomas ("W"). 
Cave, George W. 
C/CATF. 



Volume 4 

Channell, Carl R. 

Chapman, John R. (With Billy Ray Reyer). 

Chatham, Benjamin P. 

CIA Air Branch Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Deputy Chief. 

CIA Air Branch Subordinate. 

CIA Chief. 

CIA Communicator. 

CIA Identity "A". 



XV 



Volume 5 

CIA Officer. 

Clagett, C. Thomas, Jr. 

Clark, Alfred (With Gregory Zink). 

Clarke, George. 

Clarridge, Dewey R. 

Cline, Ray S. 

C/NE. 

Cohen, Harold G. 

Volume 6 

Collier, George E. 

Cole, Gary. 

Communications Officer Headquarters, CIA. 

Conrad, Daniel L. 



Volume 7 



Cooper, Charles J. 
Coors, Joseph. 
Corbin, Joan. 
Corr, Edwin G. 
Coward, John C. 
Coy, Craig P. 
Crawford, Iain T.R. 



Crawford, Susan. 
Crowe, Adm. William J. 
Currier, Kevin W. 
DCM, Country 15. 
DEA Agent 1. 
DEA Agent 2. 
DEA Agent 3. 
deGraffenreid, Kenneth, 
de la Torre, Hugo. 
Deputy Chief "DC". 



Duemling, Robert W. 
DIA Major. 
Dietel, J. Edwin. 
Dowling, Father Thomas. 
Dutton, Robert C. 
Earl, Robert. 



Volume 8 



Volume 9 



XVI 



Volume 10 



Farber, Jacob. 
Feldman, Jeffrey. 
Fischer, David C. 
Floor, Emanuel A. 
Former CIA Officer. 
Fraser, Donald. 
Fraser, Edie. 
Fuller, Craig L. 



Volume 11 



Furmark, Roy. 

Gadd, Richard. 

Gaffney, Henry. 

Gaffney, Henry (With Glenn A. Rudd). 

Galvin, Gen. John R. 

Gantt, Florence. 

Garwood, Ellen Clayton. 

Gast, Lt. Gen. Philip C. 

Gates, Robert M. 

Glanz, Anne. 



Volume 12 



George, Clair. 
Godard, Ronald D. 
Godson, Roy S. 
Golden, William. 
Gomez, Francis D. 
Goodman, Adam. 
Gorman, Paul F. 
Graham, Daniel O. 
Gregg, Donald P. 
Gregorie, Richard D. 
Guillen, Adriana. 



Hakim, Albert. 



Hall, Wilma. 
Hasenfus, Eugene. 
Hirtle, Jonathan J. 
Hooper, Bruce. 



Volume 13 



Volume 14 



XVII 



Hunt, Nelson Bunker. 
Ikle, Fred C. 
Jensen, D. Lowell. 
Juchniewicz, Edward 
Kagan, Robert W. 
Keel, Alton G. 
Kellner, Leon B. 
Kelly, John H. 
Kiszynski, George. 



Koch, Noel C. 
Kuykendall, Dan H. 
Langton, William G. 
Lawn, John C. 
Leachman, Chris J., 
Ledeen, Michael A. 



Jr. 



Volume 15 



Lei want, David O. 
Lilac, Robert H. 
Lincoln, Col. James B. 
Littledale, Krishna S. 
McDonald, John William. 
McFarlane, Robert C. 
McKay, Lt. Col. John C. 
McLaughlin, Jane E. 



Volume 16 



Volume 17 



McMahon, John N. 
McMahon, Stephen. 
McNeil, Frank. 
Makowka, Bernard. 
Marostica, Don. 
Marsh, John. 
Mason, Robert H. 



Meese, Edwin IIL 
Melton, Richard H. 
Merchant, Brian T. 
Meo, Philip H. 
Miller, Arthur J. 
Miller, Henry S. 
Miller, Johnathan. 



Volume 18 



XVIII 



Miller, Richard R. 



Motley, Langhome A. 
Mulligan, David P. 
Nagy, Alex G. 
Napier, Shirley A. 
Newington, Barbara. 
North, Oliver L. 
O'Boyle, William B. 
Osborne, Duncan. 
Owen, Robert W. 
Pena, Richard. 
Pickering, Thomas. 
Poindexter, John M. 



Posey, Thomas V. 
Powell, Gen. Colin L. 
Price, Charles H., II. 
Proprietary Manager. 
Proprietary Pilot. 
Radzimski, James R. 
Ramsey, John W. 
Ransom, David M. 



Volume 19 



Volume 20 



Volume 21 



Volume 22 



Raymond, Walter, Jr. 

Regan, Donald T. 

Reich, Otto J. 

Revell, Oliver B. 

Reyer, Billy Ray (See John Chapman). 

Reynolds, William B. 



Volume 23 



Richard, Mark M. 
Richardson, John, Jr. 
Robelo, Alfonso. 
Robinette, Glenn A. 
Rodriguez, Felix I. 
Roseman, David. 



XIX 



Rosenblatt, William. 

Royer, Larry. 

Rudd, Glenn A. 

Rudd, Glenn A. (See Henry Gaffney). 



Rugg, John J. 
Russo, Vincent M. 
Sanchez, Nestor. 
Scharf, Lawrence. 
Schweitzer, Robert ] 
Sciaroni, Bretton G. 
Secord, Richard V. 



Shackley, Theodore G. 
Sigur, Gaston J. 
Simpson, Major C. 
Sinclair, Thomas C. 
Singlaub, John K. 



Slease, Clyde H., IIL 
Smith, Clifton. 
Sofaer, Abraham D. 
Steele, Col. James J. 
Taft, William H., IV. 
Tashiro, Jack T. 
Teicher, Howard. 
Thompson, Paul. 
Tillman, Jacqueline. 



Volume 24 



Volume 25 



Volume 26 



Volume 27 



Thurman, Gen. Maxwell. 

Trott, Stephen S. 

TuU, James L. 

Vessey, John. 

Walker, William G. 

Watson, Samuel J., IIL 

Weinberger, Caspar. 

Weld, William. 

Wickham, John. 

Zink, Gregory (See Alfred Clark). 



XX 



Preface 



The House Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran 
and the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition, under authority contained in the resolutions establishing 
them (H. Res. 12 and S. Res. 23, respectively), deposed approximately 290 
individuals over the course of their 10-month joint investigation. 

The use of depositions enabled the Select Committees to take sworn responses 
to specific interrogatories, and thereby to obtain information under oath for the 
written record and develop lines of inquiry for the public hearings. 

Select Committees Members and staff counsel, including House minority 
counsel, determined who would be deposed, then sought subpoenas from the 
Chairmen of the Select Committees, when appropriate, to compel the individuals 
to appear in nonpublic sessions for questioning under oath. Many deponents 
received separate subpoenas ordering them to produce certain written documents. 

Members and staff traveled throughout the United States and abroad to meet 
with deponents. All depositions were stenographically reported or tape-recorded 
and later transcribed and duly authenticated. Deponents had the right to review 
their statements after transcription and to suggest factual and technical correc- 
tions to the Select Committees. 

At the depositions, deponents could assert their fifth amendment privilege 
to avoid self-incrimination by refusing to answer specific questions. They were 
also entitled to legal representation. Most Federal Government deponents were 
represented by lawyers from their agency; the majority of private individuals 
retained their own counsel. 

The Select Committees, after obtaining the requisite court orders, granted 
limited or "use" immunity to about 20 deponents. Such immunity means that, 
while a deposed individual could no longer invoke the fifth amendment to avoid 
answering a question, his or her compelled responses— or leads or collateral 
evidence based on those responses— could not be used in any subsequent criminal 
prosecution of that individual, except a prosecution for perjury, giving a false 
statement, or otherwise failing to comply with the court order. 

An executive branch Declassification Committee, located in the White House, 
assisted the Committee by reviewing each page of deposition transcript and some 
exhibits and identifying classified matter relating to national security. Some 
depositions were not reviewed or could not be declassified for security reasons. 

In addition, members of the House Select Committee staff corrected obvious 
typographical errors by hand and deleted personal and proprietary information 
not considered germane to the investigation. 

In these Depositions volumes, some of the deposition transcripts are follow- 
ed by exhibits. The exhibits -documentary evidence- were developed by Select 
Committees' staff in the course of the Select Committees' investigation or were 
provided by the deponent in response to a subpoena. In some cases, where the 
number of exhibits was very large, the House Select Committee staff chose for 
inclusion in the Depositions volumes selected documents. All of the original 



XXI 



exhibits are stored with the rest of the Select Committees' documents with the 
National Archives and Records Administration and are available for public in- 
spection subject to the respective rules of the House and Senate. 

The 27 volumes of the Depositions appendix, totalling more than 30,000 pages, 
consist of photocopies of declassified, hand-corrected typewritten transcripts 
and declassified exhibits. Deponents appear in alphabetical order. 



XXII 



Publications of the Senate and House 
Select Committees 



Report of the Congressional Committees Investigating the Iran-Contra Affair, 
1 volume, 1987. 

Appendix A: Source Documents, 2 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix B: Depositions, 27 volumes, 1988. 
Appendix C: Chronology of Events, 1 volume, 1988. 
Appendix D: Testimonial Chronology, 3 volumes, 1988. 

All publications of the Select Committees are available from the U.S. 
Government Printing Office. 



XXIII 



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ALL INDIVIDUALS HANDLING THIS INFORMATION ARE REQUIRED TO PROTECT 
IT FROM UNAUTHORIZED DISCLOSURE IN THE INTEREST OF THE NATIONAL 
SECURITY OF THE UNITED STATES. 

HANDLING, STORAGE, REPRODUCTION AND DISPOSITION OF THE ATTACHED 
DOCUMENT WILL BE IN ACCORDANCE WITH APPLICABLE EXECUTIVE 
ORDER(S), STATUTE(S) AND AGENCY IMPLEMENTING REGULATIONS. 



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Stenographic Transcript of 
HEARINGS 
Before the 

SELECT COWIHEE ON SECR^ MILITARY ASSISTANCE 
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 







UNITED STATES SENATEl 



TESTIMONY OF MILHA GRAY. HALL 
Monday. April 27. 1987 



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TESTIMONY OF WIUIA GRAY HALL 
Monday, April 27, 1987 

United States Senate 
Conaittee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the 
Nitiaraguan Opposition 
Washington, 0. C. 
Deposition of WIUIA GRAY HALL, called as a witness 
by counsel for the Select Comnittee, at the offices of the 
Select Committee, Room SH-220, Hart Senate Office Building, 
Washington, D. C, conaencing at 10:47 a.m., the witness 
having been duly sworn by MICHAL ANN SCHAFZR, a Notary Public 
in and for the District of Coluabia, and the testimony being 
taken down by Stenomask by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER and transcribed 
under her direction. 



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AFPEARANCES: 

On bahalf of th« S«nat« Select Consltte* on Secret 
Military Aaslatance to Iran and the Nlcaraguan Opposition: 

VICTORIA HOURSE, ESQ. 

MARK BELNICK, ESQ. 
On behalf of the House Select Conalttee: 

CLARK B. HALL, ESQ. 
ALSO PRESENT: 

C. DEAN MC GRATR, JR., ESQ. 

Associate Counsel to the President 

PETER KEXSLER 



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EXAMIHATION OH BEHALF OF 


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SENATE HOUSE 


Wilma Gray Hall 












By Ms. Hours* 










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By Mr. Belnlck 










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By Ms. Hours* 










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By Mr. Hall 










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PROCEEDINGS 
Whereupon, 

HILKA GRAY HALL, 
called as a witness by counsel for the Senate Select 
Comnlttee, having been duly sworn by the Notary Public, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION ON BEHALF O? THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MS. NOURSE: 

Q Could you state your full name for the record 
please? 

A Wllma Gray Hall. 

Q Mrs. Hall, could you tell us when you first became 
employed at the NSC and' for whom? J 

A Yes. June 1970, for Colonel Al Halg and Or. Henry 

A. Kissinger. 

Q And thereafter could you tell us who you worked 
for at the NSC up until the present time? 

A Or. Kissinger became double-hatted, so then I 
worked for Brent Scowcroft and Bill Hyland after Colonel Haig 
and — well. General Halg at that time — left and Dr. 
Kissinger was Secretary of State. After that Dr. Brzezlnskl, 
David Aaron, and then I went to work for — Richard Allen 
came In with the current administration. 

I transferred over to State Department to work fo 
Mr. McFarlane when he was e oun sellor, came back to the White 



4 



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"^^^ House with him as his secretaryy' When Judge Clark replaced 
<i s <(^ Richard Allen. Bud McFarlane became the Deputy f «nd I 

transitioned when Mr. McFarlane left. I reversed positions. 

Instead of working in the primary position, I worked in the 

secondary position for Don Fortier. 

Upon Don's death, Dr. Ke61 was appointed and asked 



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me to stay and work as his secretary. And now I am working 
for Ambassador S orioano . 
\V Q That's quite an experience at the National 
]^^ :^ Security JUfencx.. Could you give me a date when you began 
working for Colonel McFarlane? 

A When I worked directly for him or with him? 

Q With him. 

A When he was a Major in the Marine Corps. In Dr. 
Kissinger's days he was the Military Assistant. 

Q And when was that? 

A I can't remember precisely the year. I've known 
Mr. McFarlane since about 1973, when he was a White House 
Fellow for Bill Timmons in the Legislative Office. 

Q When did you begin working for him at the NSC? 

A I went to work directly for him as his personal 
Yi' 1^^ assistant when he was i o o un se l -tor at the State Department. 



l^' 



We transferred back over to the NSC in January 1982, January 
20. 

Q And you worked for him? 



ICDCTED 



10 



UNCLASSIFIED 



A Directly for him as hla ■•cratary when he was a 
Deputy, and -then when Judge Clark resigned and he became the 
Assistant, I stuck with him. 

Q You worked for him when he was National Security 
Advisor, Is that correct? 

A Right. 

Q Here you his only secretary? 

A No, but I was his primary personal assistant, 
special assistant. 

Q What were your duties as Colonel McFarlane's 
special assistant? 

A Scheduling meetings, tasking, meeting papers, 
talking to people that he didn't have time to talk with, 
handling references from the President's office that were 
referred to Mr. McFarlane. Basically, I was just a personal 
special assistant for him, and we didn't do a lot of typing 
In our office. Most of the typing was done by the staff. 
Still is today. It's always been that way. 

Q Did he dictate memos which you would transcribe? 

A Occasionally. 

Q Did you maintain a filing system? 

A Of the things that he personally wrote, yes. 
Things that he signed, no. They were always kept In the 
system outside the office. A lot of things that he wrote 
eventually got into the system, but they weren't always. 



«Nmsm!ED 



11 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Pil«a war* nalntalned In tha of flea and avarythlng's there. 

Q Parhapa you could explain for ua a little bit what 
you meana by "thlnga that ha personally wrote", ofould he 
hand-write out a sheet and give It to you to type? 

A Moat of the time he either would dictate — rarely 
he handwrota things because he just didn't have time to 
handwrita things. He would either dictate them or he'd do 
them on the PROFs machine, send ma a note, and I would type 
it, finalize it, clean it up, and put it in memorandum form. 

Q Are you speaking of personal correspondence here 
or official communications? 

A Ha did a lot of Qs and As for the President, for 
press conferences, for various things that the President 
would have. He did a lot of press guidance for Larry 
Speakes, things that ha knew tha issues and he did directly 
for tha President. Ha would do most of the things that he 
did for press guidance. Things that he personally did. 

It might seem a little silly for the National 
Security Advisor, but ha knew the issues better than just 
about anybody else. 

Q If you know, did Colonel McFarlane take notes of 
meetings that he had with the President at 9:30 in the 
morning? 

A I don't thii^ ha took notes at those meetings. He 
may have taken a one or two-word — you know he did reminders 



iificm^tnED 



12 



UNCLASSIFIED 



8 



to hlnaelf to follow up, but ha didn't take notea to ay ' 
knowladga. That'a aonathing you'd raally need to aak hin. 

Q Here theae conaiatent? Za there a aet of 
remlndera that he kept? 

A He would keep theB on a pad on hia deak. He had 
like a five-by-aeven pad, or a yellow pad aonetinea, and he 
would juat like write one word, and that one word — like 
he'd write the naae of a peraon, or arms control, or 
aomething like that, and that would trigger. He had an 
excellent memory. He haa juat total recall. 

Q Here thoae documenta filed and atored? 

A No. At the end of the day he would line out the 
things that he had done and then he would carry over maybe 
for a day or two, and at some point during the week he would 
usually update hia remlndera liat. If hia liat got too long, 
he would just keep the outstanding things. 

And he put those things in his out box with a line 
through them, which meant deatroy. Or he'd fold them, which 
meant deatroy. There was no need to retain thoae. I mean, 
no one in that office to my knowledge ever haa. It wouldn't 
Bean anything to anybody elae anyway, I don't think. 

Q I'd like to ahow you a PROFa note that I believe 
you are the author of — and I have aome copiea. It's the 
middle one. 

A Eighty-six. 



UDiHSSIFIED 



13 



UKCLASSIFIED 



MS. NOURSE: If the Reporter could mark this 
Exhibit 1. 

(The document referred to was 
marked H. Hall Exhibit Number 1 
for identification.) 
THE WITNESS: I can't really see who I wrote it to 
on the bottom. Oh, it's RCM. O.K. 

MR. BELNICK: Maybe the witness could describe it 
for you. 

BY MS. NOURSE: (Resuming) 
Q For the record, Exhibit 1 is a PROF note from 
Wilma Hall to Oliver North. It is our Bates steunp number 
N17815 and in the middle of the page, dated 11-20-86 at 
17:18:38. 

(Pause. ) 
A I remember writing this. 

Q You could help me if you would clarify the meaning 
of the second sentence here — the third sentence, rather. 
■^I'm not sure that Howard knows that we still have PROFs to 
Bod and want to protect that. So could I please ask you to 
discuss with Howard and give me something from both of you 
for Or. Keel." Could you tell me what you meant by that 
sentence? 

A The fact that Mr. McFarlane still had a PROF 
system connected with the White House was rather close held, 



uM(sm?ED 



14 



UNCLASSIFIED 



10 



Z think. I was told that he was to continue having PROFs, 
Whit* Hous* coBBunications, because he was working on 
sensitive projects for the President. And Z did memos from 
time to time extending that at the request of Paul Thompson, 
extending that service to Mr. McFarlane. It was not at Mr. 
McFarlane*s request that the system was in place. 

Q While we are on the same note here, perhaps you 
could give us a little background on the incident with 
Michael Ledeen that is described in the note, as much as you 
recall. 

A Michael Ledeen called and wanted to speak with 
Admiral Poindexter. Admiral Poindexter refused to take his 
call. So Michael Ledeen and Z know each other. He called 
back and said, since he was not able to get through to 
Admiral Poindexter, and Admiral Poindexter would not return 
his telephone calls, could he please speak with Or. Keel. 

Because he is a consultant to the NSC, he is not 
permitted — because of his consultancy role — to talk about 
NSC matters without clearing it first with the NSC and the 
White House. So before he could go on any press interviews 
he had to get clearance from the NSC. otherwise he would be 
in violation of his NSC consultancy role. So that's what he 
was seeking to do. 

MR. BELNICK: Z have to go upstairs, if you could 
just let me ask a couple of questions. 



UNmSSIFBED 



15 



UNCLASSIFIED 



II 



BY MR. BELNICK: 

Q Wllma, do you remember back In the summer of 1985, 
late August, early September — that period — Congressman 
Barnes wrote letters — 

A Right. 

Q Questioning Oliver North's activities in Central 
America. Do you recall the incident? 

A I did not see the letters. I am very much aware 
of the incident because I scheduled the meeting for 
Congressman Barnes to come and meet with Mr. McFarlane and 
discuss the matter — at Mr. McFarlane' s invitation. He 
wanted to meet with hla. He wanted to try to clarify the 
situation. 

Q Exactly. Prior to the meeting that you scheduled 
between Congressman Barnes and Mr. McFarlane, do you recall 
Mr. McFarlane gathering docxuaents to review? 

A Yes, he did. 

Q And how did he do that? 

A He asked Paul Thompson to get together with 
Colonel North and bring all materials having to do with this 
issue to his office, that he personally wanted to review all 
of these documents and to see if there was anything there 
that, you know, that the Congressman had a legitimate — you 
know was there anything in the record that Ollie had been 
doing anything. 



uNUiissmftt 



16 



f 



UNCUSS\FlEO 



12 



He wanted to be able, when he met with the 
Congressman,- he wanted to be able to say very honestly that 
he had not found any information and so forth. And I think 
Paul also met with other people on the staff to try to ensure 
that all of the materials were reviewed. 

Q Did you overhear Mr. McFarlane give those 
instructions to Paul Thompson? 

A No, but I know that this was the case because 
Paul, in fact, put this process into effect and had Colonel 
North bring the documents to his office and Paul reviewed 
them from a legal point of view, Z think, to see what was 
there . 

And I know because I saw him with the documents. 
He had quite a lot of documents. He personally went through 
all of the documents. 

Q Paul Thompson did? 

A Ves, he did. 

Q And did Paul Thompson then bring those documents 
to Mr. McFarlane so far as you know? 

A Yes, he did. And Mr. McFarlane spent a lot of 
tijie going through them. He stayed quite late at night, and 
he went through everything — as far as I know, everything. 
I mean everything that was given to him he went through. 

Q On more than one evening? 

A Yes. 



UN^lASSfBED 



17 



UMCLI^SSlFltO 



13 



Q And you know that because you saw him reviewing 
the documents? 

A Yes. 

Q Do you know whether Commander Thompson Indicated 
that any of the documents were a problem? 

A No. I don't know anything about that part of it. 
I do know that Bud reviewed all the documents. I know that 
Bud was very concerned about making sure that there was — 
nothing illegal was being done. And he also wanted to ensure 
that it was the case that everything was cleared up. 

Q Did you hear Mr. McFarlane tell Commander Thompson 
or anyone else whether he thought any of the documents may be 
problematic in some way? 

A I can't honestly remember him ever saying — 
commenting on the documents at all. I know I did see him 
talk with Paul about them, but I just don't know what was 
said. The office is very busy, so it's hard to keep up with 
everything that's going on. 

Q Sure. Do you know whether he talked with Colonel 
North about the documents? 

A Mr. McFarlane? • 

Q Yes. 

A I don't know that he talked with Colonel North 
about the documents, no, not for sure. They may have 
discussed them. 



UHl^*SStf*tO 



18 



ONCLASSra 



14 



Q Did Mr. McFarlana ask you at any tine to make 
copies of any of the documents? 
" [. / A I>^ don't recall making copies of anything. I'm 

..."-^ trying to remember when Congressman Barnes was there, If we 
gave him copies of anything. I can't remember. 

Q I believe that was In October of 1985 when 
Congressman Barnes was In, X think. Z think that's when the 
date was. Do you recall him coming to Mr. McFarlane's 
office? 

A Yes. 

Q And he came alone? 

A That's right. Mr. McFarlane met with him alone. 

Q Do you recall If the dociiments were In Mr. 
McFarlane's office when the Congressman was there? 

A I honestly can't remember If the documents were 
there. I can't remember. 

Q Did Mr. McFarlane at any time make any comment 
about any of the documents to you? 

A No. No, but he took things like that very 
seriously. Any time there was any kind of an allegation like 
that, I know he sought to get to the bottom of that — and I 
know he sought to ascertain that everything was being done on 
the up and up. 

Q Do you know whether Mr. Fielding reviewed those 
seune documents? 



HNGlASSIffiD 



19 



UNCLASSIFBED 



15 - 
A I don't. Paul Thompson would have to tell you 



that. 



MR. BELNICK; All right. Nice to see you again. 
THE WITNESS: Nice to see you. 
MR. BELNICK: Excuse me. 
BY MS. NOURSE: (Resuming) 
Q On the same topic, the same time frame as 
Congressman Barnes' request, do you remember speaking to Mr. 
— do you remember Mr. McFarlane speaking to Ken 
deGraffenreid about the documents? 

A No. But there's no way I would know that. He may 
have. He may have had me place a call to Ken or have Ken 
come over, but I wouldn't necessarily have known what that 
was about. 

Q Okay. I'm going to show you another document. 
Unfortunately, 1 don't have copies for you, but you probably 
have seen it. If the Reporter could mark this Hall Exhibit 
2. 

(The document referred to was 
marked W. Hall Exhibit Number 2 
for identification.) 
If you could take a look at the document and see 
if you remember anything about it — receiving it, having a 
conversation about it. I'll tell you up front that this is 
the renowned diversion memo of April 4, purportedly. 
TOP SECRET/CODEWORD 



UNCLASSIFIED 



20 



UNCLASSIFIW 



16 



A I was just going to aslc of what year? 

Q 1*986. I believe on the fourth page is the 
paragraph dealing with — 

A I don't recall ever seeing this. You know, I saw 
a lot of American hostage things, but I don't remember the 
title being set out like that. 

April of 1986 was about the time that Mr. Fortier 
became ill, and I saw almost no documents that went to 
Admiral Poindexter during that time frame. I did maintain 
control of the office log, but that doesn't look like 
anything. It doesn't have a number up there. So it means it 
wouldn't have gone through me. Z mean, that number is not 
ours. I can tell by the way its printed on there. 

Q The N 7515 is our Bates stzuop number. 

A He use system numbers, and Z would recognize. Z 
mean, working with them long enough, Z would recognize. 

Q There is no system number on that document? 

A I didn't read that, but Z am sure I have not ever 
seen that document. 

Q Okay. Tell me zQsout maintaining the log system. 

A When Z reverted back to the Deputy secretarial 
position, assistant position, that position, part of the 
responsibility of that position was maintaining the office 
log of all the doc\iments that were within the office and 
where they were — being whether they were with Admiral 



UNOCirSSTFllD 



21 



UNCLASSIFIED 



17 



Polndextar, Paul Thompson, or Mr. McFarlane. 

And when I worked with Don Fortier, it would have 
been whether they were with Don Fortier, Paul Thompson, or 
Admiral Poindexter. Everything that was received in the 
office C2une to me to log in. And after logging it in, we 
would give it to the appropriate person it was marked for. 
Bob Pearson, or the executive secretary, whoever it was at 
that time, would indicate — Rod KcDaniel — who should get 
the next routing of the document. He had routing slips on 
them. Those were controlled documents. 

Q In other words, you have a record of each document 
that, for example. Admiral Poindexter saw? Is that correct? 

A There is a record, yeah. There is a record on the 
computer now. We converted to the computer, and there is a 
record on the computer of every document he saw, yes. I 
don't know how they keep those. 1 mean, I don't know — you 
would have to know the document number to know whether he saw 
it or not. But he always initialed everything in red pen 
that he saw. 

Q So, one could search by a system number on this 
computer — 

A And tell who saw it. 

Q — and tell who saw it? 

A Um-hum. And that would be a long task. I don't 
think that would be an easy task. 



imcfeftssif-ED 



22 



ONCLASSm 



18 



Q Has It also the case whan you were working for 

Colonel McFarlane that there was a log of all documents that 

he saw? ,, , i 

{,.. A (:^^^ 

\^ O A Yes. That was maintained by Florence Ghant/ - 

because she worked in the Deputy position at that time. 

Q Perhaps you could explain for me the secretarial 

system that operated. You were speaking of being the Deputy 

assistant and taking care of the logs. Just give us a short 

explanation of the system. Frankly I'm a bit confused. ^ 

A Hell, there are three offices upstairs. There is 

the Deputy Assistant position, the Assistant to the President 

position, and there is the Military Assistant. All papers 

were routed through all three of those people. They would go 

first to the Deputy, and then to the Military Assistant, and 

then to the Assistant. Not in all cases. 

In some cases they would bypass the Deputy. If 

V<2^ O.V ^^' ^°i^ instance, was a letter/\had been addressed to the 

v Assistant to the President, it not necessarily always needed 

to go. You know, if it was an invitation to address or 

something like that — a response — there were some things 

that weren't worth the Deputy's time. They just required a 

'\'x,'^li't3 signature. It was kind of a bread and butter type thing^ 

and they would go directly to the Military Assistant and then 

p v^ ■! !^ V be Msigned out. 

The system always went back through the log or the 



IfNCaSSIFIED 



23 



Hrf" 



UNCUSSIRED 



19 



computer control, whichever waa In effect. He had a 
handwritten log for a long time. And then we started putting 
everything on the computer. The only reason we did that in 
our office was just so that If somebody called us, an action 
officer called and said, I sent a memo over to Mr. McFarlane, 
can you tell me where It Is? It had to go out by 5:00 today. 
We could look at the log real quick and find out that it was 
still with them or Poindexter, and we could move it. It was 
just to help us make sure that things got done in a timely 
way. 

Q Here System IV documents logged? 

A Yes, they were. Everything with a number on it. 
System IV was handled. They were very sensitive because they 
were intelligence documents. So they were always handled — 
hand-carried directly to our office. He'd log them on our 
log just so we could find then if we needed to. He didn't 
read those. They were always in sealed envelopes with a 
cover sheet on the front. Sometimes you would open the 
envelope to see what the subject was. So that you just — if 
somebody asked you, or the action officer -wh« it was because 
you couldn't always tell by the number on the outside. 

Q Did Colonel McFarlane ever ask you to request an 
original System IV document from the files? 

A No. Not that I can recall, no. He never stated 
original. Sometimes he would want to see a copy of 



ItNCtHtSSIFIED 



^4 



UNCLASSIHED 



20 



something, but it wouldn't necessarily have been In System 
IV. I'd have never requested the original document. 
1 Original documents go to the Assistant, and he either signs 
'.{■A them out ,«rta acts on them; then they go to the files. He 

might at some later date need to refer to something that had 
been done earlier, but I usually juSt got a copy. 

Q Okay. Back to the documents, and I just have 
questions if you could explain some references or what you 
remember about certain Incidents, if the reporter could mark 
this as Hall Exhibit 3. 

(The document referred to was 
marked W. Hall Exhibit Number 3 
for identification.) 
Mrs. Hall, if you could take a look at this and 
read through it and when you are finished — 

A Nhat do you want to know? I barely remember this. 
Q Do you recall how it is that this note was 
written? Did Mr. McFarlane ask you to? 

A I did all — every time I talked with someone on 
the telephone I wrote a note just like this. This was one of 
the primary functions of my job. Mr. McFarlane simply didn't 
have time to talk to everybody. I talked to Senators. Every 
time a Senator or Congressman — you are going to find notes 
like this, too — would call — anybody I talked with, a lot 
of people. David Rockefeller, you will probably find a lot 



mmrn 



25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



21 



of notes from hln. 

But it was the function of my job to take the 
essence of the request, always put it on a form, because Mr. 
McFarlane was a very busy man. What I did is a notes folder. 
It's just a manilla folder, and put "notes for RCM" on the 
front. All during the day, every time I got a call, I'd type 
it up, put it in that notes folder. He would be at a 
meeting, and when he came back from a meeting that's the 
first thing he would look at to see if anything had happened 
since he left the office. 

And he would act on the notes. He was very good 
about that. If he ever didn't act on a note, it meant he 
didn't want to deal with it. And that was rare. I mean, he 
always gave you an answer — yes, no — and these options are 
my options. I make up things as I go along. And the reason 
I've got this "no, I don't want to see Ledeen" is about nine 
times out of ten the answer was "no, I don't want to see 
Ledeen." 

Q Has that with respect to Mr. Ledeen, or in 
general, that he did not have time to see a lot of people? 

A In respect to Michael somewhat, because Michael, 
as much as I like him, he was a frequent caller, and it was 
not possible to see him all the time that he wanted to see 
Mr. McFarlane. But that doesn't mean he — you know, he had 
legitimate reasons, I guess, for wanting to see him, but he 
TOP SECRET/CODEWORD 



UNCLASSIFIED 



26 



ONCLASSIFIEO 



22 



just — you glv« hla fiv« nlnutas on* day, It gets to b« 
continuous calls. 

Q Did Mr. McFarlana meat with Michael Ledeen fairly 
frequently? 

A I wouldn't say frequently, not as frequently as 
Mr. Ledeen would have liked to have seen him. But frequently 
in the realm of things, yes, considering how busy he was and 
how complicated his schedule was. I think that Z wouldn't 
say frequently; I'd say maybe one out of every ten times. A 
And I would say not more than — I don't know. If I could 
see my calendars — I mean everything is on my appointment 
books. Somebody has those — the FBI or somebody — and you 
can see. You know, records — Mr. McFarlane has his records 
of schedule. 

Q I wanted to ask you about the records of schedule. 
Is it your understanding that the records of schedule are 
actual verbatim records of who Mr. McFarlane saw? 

A They are close. They are not actual verbatim. 
That's impossible. It is absolutely impossible for it to be 
varbatim, because that's a very busy office and the person 
tfeat kept the records of 8chedul«|||| was Kay Zerwick, his 



I 



t^ secretary. And if she happened to be away from her desk, or 
she didn't happen to see the phone ring, or something, it's 
possible that something got omitted. 

But as far as meetings I would say that the 



!fNCDtSSinED 



27 



UNCLASSIFIED 



records of schedule are probably pretty accurate. The only 
case in which they wouldn't be accurate is maybe if Mr. Regan 
or the Vice President, or somebody from the staff were to 
just walk in for a minute or two and somebody missed them 
going in and out. You Icnov how you get so used to seeing 
people coming and going. They would notice a visitor, 
because a visitor would have to be cleared and scheduled. 

So you would know that that person was in there 
and it would be on the appointment book and it would also be 
in the record of schedule. You see, one thing about the 
record of schedule that is a little bit confusing, too, is 
that Kay Zerwick, that was one of the functions of her job 
was to keep the record of schedule during the day. And then 
at night a night secretary typed that record of schedule. 

And there were times when I would go back and look 
for something that I knew took place, and I would find that 
it wouldn't be there, for one reason or another, or I would 
find typos in the timing — like a meeting that I knew he 
couldn't have had at 11:00 because he would have been in a 
meeting with the President. They would have it at 11:00 and 
the meeting actually took place at 10:00 or something like 
that. 

So, I would not say that those records were 
verbatim. I would say they were probably 90-95 percent 
correct . 



UNetASSmED 



28 



^P'O 



UNCLASSIFIED 



24 



Q Okay. 

A A« correct as you can b« unlass you had on* person 
totally focus«d on on* othar paraon constantly. 

Q Getting back to Exhibit 3, which Is a note from 
you to Mr. McFarlane on July 11, 1985, regarding an 
appointment that Mr. Ledeen sought, can you reaember anything 
else about this incident? Was there ever a conversation that 
you had with Mr. McFarlane about neeting with Michael Ledeen 
at this tiae? 

A This aeeting apparently took place, because I've 
got it on here. It is ay handtnriting. 8:00 a. a or 9:00 
a. a., or 10:00, the Xerox is so bad. It's probably 10:00, 
because on Saturdays Mr. McFarlane liked to coae in and go 
through his intelligence stuff before he had aeetings. I 
generally didn't start aeetings on Saturday until around 
10:00. 

Q And is this notation on the left yours as well — 

Res.H^^mmn 

A Yes. Residence. Z always put a point of contact, 
and Z always put the naae of the person who called me unless 
its the person that Z actually talked with. If it's a 
secretary, Z put her naae and phone number. If it's a staff 
person, Z always put — that's because this aeeting was 
scheduled by me at some point, July 11, 12, or whenever I 
scheduled it. The time of the appointment is on here. 



I 



TOP SECRET/CODEHOR]}.;.,^ 

UNCLASSlFlta 



29 



UHCLASSIFIEO 



25 



But we put It in a folder and I might not have 
been working on that Saturday, and If Mr. NcFarlane came to 
the office on Saturday morning and saw that Michael Ledeen 
was on his calendar for 10:00, he'd say why Is he on my 
calendar, why am I seeing him? Then the secretary, whoever 
It was, could put the folder and say, well, you agreed to do 
It. I mean, you know, because seems like — I don't know how 
to explain It In that office. I'm sure these offices are 
busy up here, too. 

But, X mean one day out there Is like a week. So 
much happens in a 2 4 -hour period. 

Q I'm beginning to understand how that is. Are 
these notes that you take of telephone conversations kept in 
one central file? 

A They were in his — I have a file entitled notes 
to RCM. It should have been in his chron files. I don't 
know where you got these from. Did he give them to you or 
did they come from the files? I would think they came from 
your White House files. 

Q He received these from the NSC. 

A Yeah, so they are part of his official files. 

Q Moving on to another one of these documents, this 
document is a PROF. What I would like to ask you is 
basically the foirmat and not the content. I'm not interested 
in discussing the content on the record. If the reporter 



DtietAS^IHED 



30 



UNCLASSIFIED 



26 



could mark this — 

A r can't read this. Who is it from? 

Q All right. That is what I wanted to ask you. If 
the reporter could mark this as Hall Exhibit 4. 

(The document referred to was 
marked W. Hall Exhibit Number 4 
for identification.) 

A I can't read it. Do you have a better copy? 

Q Unfortunately not. If I could, all I'm concerned 
about are the first five lines. If I could just read to you 
what I think they say. It says: "note from Robert McFarlane 
subject note to the President, subject sensitive operation in 
Nicaragua.'* I'm not concerned with the content of the note. 
Maybe this is a better copy. 

I think that the message indicates that it is from 
Mr. McFarlane to you. 

A No. Hell, there is somebody else that it's to. 

Q That's what I wanted to ask in terms of the format 
here that's used. 

A He addressed it to me, but there is somebody 
else's name on it. Wait a minute. I'll have to read it to 
figure it out. 

Oh yeah, I remember this. This was a note from 
Mr. McFarlane to the President. And he sent it to me. I 
guess I am the only addressee. This was a very sensitive. 



imetAssmED 



31 



UNCLASSIFIED 



27 



extremely sensitive operation. 

Q Yes, I understand. 

A We did an original only of this. It went to the 
President, and the President made a decision. 

Q What I wanted to ask you was how often this kind 
of communication took place whereby Mr. McFarlane would sent 
you a PROF note. 

A This is the kind of thing that he would send only 
to me and no one else in the office — except maybe the 
Admiral would see something like this — because of the 
sensitivity. Not often. Rarely. But when it was very 
special, sensitive operations like this, and he wanted the 
President to make a decision — wanted the President to be 
aware and make the decision — he would do them personally. 

And it was usually based on information from 
Director Casey, or maybe Secretary Shultz. He and Shultz 
would have talked about it on secure or he and Casey would 
have talked about. These were extremely close hold. But he 
did put them in written format. 

And I know of one or two other incidents that he 
did this and I would not want to put it on the public record 
because they are extremely sensitive. 

Q I understand. 

A They do not have to do with Nicaragua, however. 
MS. NOURSE: Off the record for a minute. 



BNeteftSOTifi) 



32 



^^.W ' 28 

(A discussion vss hsld off th« record.) 
BY MS. N00K8B) (Rssuainq) 

Q Back on ths record. Lst b« just taks a minuta to 
•xplain that this Exhibit 4 is a PROP nota, our Batas stamp 
nunbar 17800, and it is datad April 3, 1984 at 9:34:50. Lat 
ma just clarify. This was an unusual practice? 

A Unusual, yas. Mr. McParlano did that only whan it 
was axtreaaly sansitiva, and this was soaathing that caaa 
froB him from Sacratary Shults or Director Casey. It was 
usually Cabinet level. 




and because of the time crun^ it vaa not possible to have a 
courier get it there, because there was a timing problem and 
the President needed to knov about it right away. 

Q You would type this up in a note to the President? 

A Yes. Original only. 

Q Original only? 

A Right. 

Q Do you know what happened to those orignals? 

A Sometimes the originals came back to us. 
Sometimes, Z don't know what happened to them. I guess the 
President kept them. Maybe he burned them in his ashtray. I 
don't know. 

Q Z understand. 



UNtniSSTFIED 



33 



UNCLASSIFIED 



29 



A I don't mean to be a sBart-alec]cy. 
Q That's okay. 

A I don't think ha would do that because they are 
for the record. Otherwise they wouldn't have been written. 

By the way, these that came back to us would be in 
our files. Even though they are sensitive, they would be in 
Mr. McFarlane's chron or in the intelligence files. So you 
should be able to — the original of that exists somewhere. 
Q Okay. Let ne show you another PROF, and this is 
probably the last document. If the reporter could mark this 
aa Hall Exhibit 5. 

(The doc\ment referred to was 
marked W. Hall Exhibit Number 5 
for identification.) 
This is a PROF note, our Bates stamp number 
N17808. Z believe it is from you, Mrs. Hall, to Mr. 
McFarlane, August 19, 1985. Tell me when you've read it. 
(Pause.) 
A I've read it, but I never did know what "soap" 
■•ant. 

Q That was one of my questions. 
A I have no idea. 
Q Do you recall this incident? 
U^ ik" A I remember that PROF note, jl^was again a case of 
*' where I ended up talking to people who — I was an extension 



wMsm 



34 



UNtlASSra 



30 



of Mr. McFarlana. Everybody who couldn't talk to Bud knew 
that they could talk to me, and that It would be the same, 
because they knew that I would pass It only to him and to no 
one else. I didn't talk about things like this. 

Q And you did not know at that time — 

A Never thought I'd see them again either. 

Q I suspect very few people did. 

At that time you did not understand what the term 
"soap" or "replenish supply" meant? 

A I don't even know that Mr. McFarlane did. You 
know, Michael Ledeen called and gave vary cryptic messages 
sometimes, and I would pass them to Mr. McFarlane, and he 
would look very puzzled. So X think you really need to 
follow up with him. 

Q Okay. Fine. Z retract my statement. One more 
document. Let's see if you can enlighten us on this one, if 
the reporter could mark this as Hall Exhibit 6. 

(The document referred to was 
marked H. Hall Exhibit Number 6 
for identification.) 
k. This is a set of PROF notes, our Bates stamp 

numbers N17804 to 17806. The PROF notes are all dated June 
12 or 13, 1984, three pages. It concerns conversations with 
•^(K atfife Kemp relating to Mr. Khashoggl. And after you've had a 
chance to read them all, I'd just like to ask you if you 



BTOWSSIfttB 



35 



"WSS/flfii 



31 



r«call anything specifically about this incident. 
(Pause . ) 

A Okay. I've read it. 

Q Do you recall having conversations with Mr. 
McFarlane about Mr. Tyson's request and the subject of the 
PROF notes? 

A These are the extent of my conversations with Mr. 
McFarlane about Chuck Tyson. I had no verbal conversations 
with him about Chuck Tyson. I don't know — I think Mr. 
McFarlane was surprised that Chuck went to work for Mr. 
Khashoggl. Mr. McFarlane had received a number of documents 
in the past from Mr. Khashoggl, who saw himself as sort of a 
Middle East peace initiator. But basically he sent these 
dociunents to Mr. McFarlane for Information. 
Ujj . XS They wereiflH given to Jef f Kemp. 

^ Q Do you know why Mr. McFarlane was surprised that 
Chuck Tyson would go to work for Mr. Khashoggl? 

A It would just be an opinion on my part, but I 
think that he thought that Mr. Tyson had more integrity than 
to work for Mr. Khashoggl. 

Q Do you know what the K operation referred to in 
these notes is? 

A I have no idea what that is. I was just conveying 
a message. I didn't understand it. I think that Mr. Tyson 
knew that — I think the K operation at that time, what Mr. 
TOP SECRET/ CODEWORD 



UNCLASSinED 



36 



UNGLASSIRED 



32 



Tyson was r«f«rrlng to — and again It la just strictly an 
opinion on ay part — was thsss deeuaants that ho had had 
dallvarad about ha vantad to b« sort of a nagotlator. Ha wa: 
r\ a vary vaalthy aan, trho, you know, aort of wantad to play 
\p^ with powar, Z think, b a se lally t 

And Z think h« thought that his accass to tha 
Whlta Housa was — ha wantad to b« parcalvad as balng mora 
Important and playing a mora Important rola than ha raally 
did. Z don't think Mr. McParlana avar trustad hla. 

Q Okay. Z just hava a eeupla mora quastlons. 

A Thosa papars should b« In tha flla, by tha way.' 

Q Tha papars that ara tha sub j act of thasa PROF 
notas? 

A Wall, tha papars that Mr. Khashoggl pravlously 
dallvarad — big, thick packats of atuff, which Mr. McFar^an«| 
didn't avan taka tha tlaa to raad. Ha sant thaa to 9«Cf-to 
ba analysad. So thay should ba In tha fllas. 

Q I undarstand that Pawn Hall, Ollvar North's 
sacratary. Is your daughtar. 

A That's corract. 

Q During Movaabar of this past yaar, 1986, did you 
hava any convarsatlons with har about tha ravalatlons that 
had arisan about tha Zran-Centra affair? 

A No. Pawn and Z did net discuss our work. That 1:1 
ona thing that — wa wars both vary profaaslonal In our jobs 






ONtUSSIflED 



37 



UNCLASSIFIED 



33 



and we did not discuss our work. I didn't know anything 
about anything she did for Colonel North, and she didn't know 
anything about anything I did for Mr. McFarlane. It was none 
of her business, and what she did was none of mine. The only 
thing I did say is the day the resignations — I mean, I was 
as shocked as everyone, because I watched Mr. Meese's 
appearance with Dr. Keel, and I was totally floored. 

I sent her a note that said that she should not 
discuss it with anyone because I knew that she would be very 
very emotional because she was very committed to working with 
Ollie, and she believed in what they were doing — her work 
with him. And I knew she would be very emotionally upset and 
I Icnew a lot of people would probably be asking her 
questions. So I sent her a note and suggested to her just to 
tell people that she didn't want to talk about it, or she 
didn't know, or anything, because she had to have time to get 
used to the idea. 

I did that as a mother, not as a secretary. I 
would have called my daughter from home if I had been working 
at home, too. I just think that when you are a mother you 
think your kids are always kids. But it's not because I had 
any special knowledge of anything. 

Q Have you had any conversations with her since that 
time about this matter? 
[Laughter] 

UIIG4AS$MD 



38 



KNCUSS/FIED 



34 



I 



I certainly hop« she's had conversations with her 
daughter, and I'm sure she has. 

A Yeah, oh, yes. Ko, except just the usual things 
that you see in the paper and things like that, nothing as 
far as documents or their relationship, or anything she may 
have done, or may not have done, or anything. I mean, I know 
there has been an awful lot of stuff in the paper and it's 
very upsetting to all of us. 

Q Ko discussions about altering documents? 
A No. She does not discuss those things with me. 
MS. NOURSE: Fine. Mr. Hall, do you have some? 
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE 
BY MR. HALL: 
Q Just a couple of brief questions. Recognizing, of 
course, that the volume of your workload is very heavy, do 
you recall seeing or typing any document, other than the one 
Victoria showed you, relating to a diversion of funds to the 
Contras from the Iranian Arms sales? 

A I didn't do any typing like that. I mean, no. 
That wouldn't have been something I think would have been 
done in our office. I don't even know — that's not a format 
that I would use there. 

MR. MC GRATH: Let the record show that Mrs. Hall 
has not identified any other document that she saw or typed 
relating to the diversion of funds to the Contras. 
TOP SECRET/CODEWORD 



UNCLASSIFIED 



39 



UNCLASSiFSED 



35 



MS. NOURSE: Yes. 
BY MR. HALL: (Resuming) 
Q That's the document that Victoria previously 
showed you which related tp the diversion. 

A Okay. I did not read that document. I simply 
scanned it, but I'm absolutely certain I've never seen that 
document . 

Q Have you ever heard-- 

A I may have handled that document, but I have not 
read it or seen it before. I mean I may have given it in an 
envelope or something. I mean I have no way of knowing. I 
have no knowledge of the document. 

Q Have you heard discussions among individuals at 
the National Security Council speaking specifically about 
Admiral Poindexter, Colonel McFarlane and Colonel North 
regarding the diversion of funds. 

A I've not heard any conversation about diversion of 
funds in the White House, except since this thing broke out. 
People have been talking about it. But no. 
MR. HALL: Thank you. 
MS. NOURSE: That's it. 

MR. MC GRATH: I would like the record to show 
that Mrs. Hall had no advance notice of today's deposition. 
She agreed at the last moment to testify here voluntarily 
today and has exhibited extreme cooperation with the 
TOP SECRET/CODEWORD 



UNCLASSIFBED 



40 



UNCLASSIFIED 



I 



36 



ConDittee Members and Staff. 

MS. NOURSE: I concur with that. And I thank you 
very much for taking the time to come down here and sharing 
with me the wonderful Intimidation of that machine. 

(Whereupon, at 11:41 a.m., the taking of the 
Instant deposition ceased.) 



SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS 

Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of 

, 1987. 



NOTARY PUBLIC 
My Commission expires: 



UNCL/l^fFfED 



41 



UNCLASSIFIED 



CIRTIFZCATE OP REPORTER 
I, Michal Ann S<iuifer> the officer before viion the foregoing 

deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness 
whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was 
duly sworn by me) that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter reduced 
to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition 
Is a true record of the testimony given by said witnessj 
that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed 
by any of the parties to the action in which this 
deposition was taken, and further that I am not a relative 
or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the 
parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested 
in. the outcome of the action. 



nrOLchaii 



Gtrirsicl^ala ^ 



NOTARY PUBLIC 
My Coaaission expires F^>ruary 28, 1990 



PUISUUB 



42 



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July 11, 1??5 



PCM : 

JM? t2l'-;ei with Micha-?! r.-'deen this Dorninq about an urrer.t 

rrs?2ze from Peres for Mcl'ar Line which Al Schwirr-er, a 

Jevi£'r.-AjT-er ic in who provides lots of money to Peres, wants to 
dt- liver to PCM. 

In the .Tieantire, Schwir.-er has flown down here and had lunch 
today with Michael Ledeen and Ledeen has called back with the 
following : 

"It is indeed a message from Prime Minister of Israt^l; it is 
a follow-cn to the private conversation he had last week when 
-Cavid Kir.che was here. It is extremely urgent and extrer-.ely 
sensitive iv.d it regards the matter he told David he was going to 
raise with the President. The situation has fundamentally 
cherged for the be-ter and that I must explain to him because it 
will affect his decision. It is very important. It won't keep 
more than a day or two but could keep until Saturday morning. 
Tfiis ii; the real thinu and it is just wonderful news." 

Should I try to schedule Ledeen to see you? 



Yes, Friday afternoon 

Yes, on Saturday 

No, I don't want to see Ledeen 



Othar : 



<«> 



# 



n^. 



mp\ ?. 



Partially Oeclassiliefl/Released on JltsSBo 
under provisions o( E 12356 
by K. Jotmson. National Security Council 







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HAnE= HIR029000 PAGE 1 



RPTS BOYUM 
OCHN SPRADLING 



^%J% 



^aoBtmn ^ , , or "^ copies 



DEPOSITION OF EUGENE HASENFUS 

Thuxsday, January 29, 1987 

Housa of Repxasentatlves, 

Select Comnittee to Investigate Covert Arns 

Transactions with Iran. 
Washington, D. C. 



The select comnittee net, pursuant to call, at 9=30 a.n. 
in Roon 2226, Rayburn House Oiiice Building, H. Neil 
Eggleston [deputy chief counsel for the comiittee 1 
presiding. 

Partially Declassified/Released m ^''--JI^'^ 8® 
under provisions of E 12356 
by K Johnson, National Secuttty Council 






50 



NAHE: 

19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
2M 
25 
26 
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3U 
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to 
m 

H2 
US 



MIR029000 yriiiLnOuiriLU ?\qi 2 

Hhaieupon, EUGEKE HASEKFUS. aitax having baen first 
duly SHornf was called as a witness and testified as 
follows : 

EXAHINATIOK 

BY IIR. EGGLESTOK: 
e Hx . Hasenius, let me inioxm you that ay nane is 
Neil Eggleston, I aa Deputy Chief Counsel of the House 
Select Coaaittee to Investigate Covert Aras Txansactions 
with Ixan. This is an investigation that is being conducted 
by the House of Repxesentatives Select Coaaittee into the 
activities of various individuals involving both Ixan and 
Nicaragua. 

Also present with a* axe Geozge Van Cleve and Hike 
O'Neil, who are both also with the House of Representatives. 

You are appearing here today pursuant to a subpoena 
which was issued by the House Select Coaaittee. I take it 
you have received a copy of the subpoena. Z don't intend to 
xead it to you. 

In addition, let ae just say fox the xeeoxd that 
youx lawyex is also pxesent with you, is that ooxxect? 
A Cozzect. 

fi Bafoxe we soxt of get undex way> let ae just ask 
S*v, the subpoena has an attachaant to it which calls fox 
the pxoductlon of vaxious xeooxds, and is it ay 
undexstandlng do you have any doouaants to produce puxsuant 



KLSJJJ® 



Z^J/ytOSS" 



Partully Declassified/Released on 

under provisions ol E 12356 
by K Johnson. National Secunty Council 



^s 

46 

m 

■48 
Il9 
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HIR029000 llllUL.mJUII ILU ^''^^ 
to this paxt o£ tha raquttst? 

i I hava all my bank transactions that waxa acquirad 
baioza — through Grliiln Ball for our casa in Managua plus a 
iaw othar bank notast and avarything to do wit} 
National Bank I hava with iia . 

MR. PLZ6ER: li I may, did tha bank produca tha 
racords that you raquastad? 

MR. EGGLESTON: Lat ma say tha bank producad 
various racords as wall. 

THE UITKESS: Ha hava a duplicata with us. so it— 

HR. PLEGER' from th^^^^^^^HKational Bank. 

HR. EGGLESTON: y»s . 

Zi you could produca thosa to ma I could datazmina 
ii thay oorraspond with thosa that Z hava raoaivad from tha 
bank. 

THE WITNESS: All right, and this is all I hava. 

HR. EGGLESTON' Z will just taka a minuta and look 
ovar this and saa 12 it look lika a duplicata oi what Z 
hava. 

(Olsoussion oii tha raoord.) 

BY HR. EGGLESTON' 
ft This appaars to ba a duplicata of what Z racaivad 
Xftrn yastarday from tha bank. 

& Z dug out a faw, thay ara all burnad-off copias . 
ft That is rafarrlng to othar bank racords 7 

•I 'M>n 



mm 



52 



*X ^P 



KAHE: 
69 
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HIR029000 UllVLnOOll IkV PAGE 4 

A Ihay axa tha sana onas . Hhen I was hixad to right 
noH> tha bank xacords are hardly used, there was hardly any 
ohacks written out or anything there, and in tha time 
between there was no real transactions at all. 

2 Other than the records that you received that 
appear to be copies X received iron the bank, do you have 
any other records that you brought with you? 

A I have one other one that is interesting, it cane 
through iron Gary Edward iron the Corporate Air Service iron 
Curllsville, Pennsylvania, that regards the H-2 iozm note oz 
less, you may look at it saying how much money I made ior 
tax purposes. That came through the mail the other day. 
This is the first it has bean shown to anyone.. 

fi If it is all right — 

HR. PLEGER: Tha thing oi interest is the total is 
different than the three checks that he has records of being 
paid in deposits. 

THE WITNESS: Two thousand-soma dollars difference. 
BY HR. E6GLEST0N: 

S And an additional check of 2700 or so. 

A Correct. That is tha one that would show on these 
HJtfcT records. 

fi Z think what I will do is at tha conclusion is make 
a copy of this. X assume you will need this to complete 
youz tax zatuzns. So I will make a copy of it and return 



IBISIHSSIFIED 



53 



UNbUoS.iiEO 



NAME' HIR029000 y|l||LJlUWI1 IkV PAGE 

9>( th« original to you. 

95 A Sura, that will ba iina. 

96 ft Anything alsa? 

97 A Yas, whlla I an going through. It says amployaant 

98 or activity as cargo handlar or otharwisa in or ovar 
Nloaragua^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Htha only was 

100 a small ona hara and Z didn't raally fill anything out 

101 bacausa in hara Z hava a faw phona nuabars Mhich Z baliava 

102 avarybody has. thosa ara ay brothar's. Khan Z startad out Z 

103 just said Z was hlrad July 7. '86. just a faw small things 
1014 and a coupla tiaas whan Z did maka thasa spaclfio flights 

105 into Nicaragua, but thay ara not all hara. 

106 Aitar a whlla Z thought It was Indliiarant raally 

107 to kaap track o£ thaa. And thara ara a — 

108 HR. PLEGEt: Hayba you oould look ovar thosa pagas. 

109 THE HZTNESSi Yas . and Z hava ay passport. 

110 HR. EGGLESTON: Zi you would hold up ior a sacond. 

1 1 1 lat aa look at this and »•• If Z hava any quastlons Z want 

112 to ask you about bafora wa prooaad any furthar. although Z 

113 think Z will probably plok It back up as Z go through tha 
11<t ohzonology. 

115 . BY HR. EGGLESION> 

116 ,» ft Tha rast of it Is blank? 

117 A Yas. Z was quastlonad by tha FBZ on thasa things 

118 so Z brought It along. That addrass that you saa in thara 



mmim 



54 



HinZ> HIt029000 



U«^CLMO»iiH[0 „„ . 



119 
120 
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12t| 
125 
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UK 
135 
136 
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mi 

1<I2 
1U3 



izoji Cozpozats Aiz Sazvica Is ona Z iound In an anvttlopa 
villi* In^^Hf^^^^and down, othazwiss 

pzavlously I navaz had an addzass. It was navaz givan to 
■a. 

S Lat na do this. Z will zatuzn to this whan Z gat 
to tha chzonology. Z will tzy not to fozgat about it. Lat 
ma look at youz passpozt. As to aach oi thasa, what Z will 
do is aaka oopias and zatuzn than to you. 

A rina. 

a Lat aa just taka a look at this. 

nz. Masanius, okay, is thaza anything alsa? 

A Z was just going thzough it, but not limltad to 
such natazials. contzaots — wall, tha oontzacts that war*' 
signad batwaan Cozpozata Aiz Sazvlca with Bill Coopar, thaza 
was ona copy nada just as wa aza sitting haza, thara was ona 
copy mada, wa askad ioz duplioatas ioz ouzsalvas, wa waza 
pzoBisad tha* but navaz zacaivad thaa. 

Zt says pay zaoozds, wa hava oopias of thosa sant 
izoB tha bank thaza. 

Flight plans, logs, jouznals oz notas, flight 
survival guidas, maniiasts, ozaw lists, Z hava nona. Thay 
no such things. Thaza waza a faw as faz as itanifasts oz 

lists, tha only things that waza pzobably thaza waza 
Buss Sawyaz kapt a pazsonal log book oi his own, lika most 
pilots will, to kaap tzaok oi thalz houzs, typa oi aizczait. 



f 



wussife 



NAME 

ins 

1U6 
147 
148 
1i|9 
ISO 
151 
152 
153 
1SU 
1SS 
156 
157 
158 
159 
160 
161 
162 
163 
16U 
165 
166 
167 
168 



HIR029000 



ONCLASSlflED 



PAGE 



but as far as cr«H lists, I hav* nanas hat*. 

S Ihasa aza just namas that you hava pzoducad ftom 
youz manory. 

Thasa aza tha paopla that waza in^B|^^^^^^a that 
weze peopla that waza thaza. 

2 Hhy don't I ask you to hold off on that until I get 
to that. Just foz tha zacozd, what you waza pointing to is 
a yellow pad that zaflacts things you hava wzitten down 
since you have zetuznedl 

A Cozzact. Flight suzvival. czaw lists, identity 
cazds--evezy ID cazd I had was in ay wallet at the tine of 
captuza and it was taken ovez and I have not seen thra. 
They weze all, I believe evazybody has photocopies of than, 
that the Sandinistas gave but. Invoices zecaivad oz 
accepted in dalivazing shipnants — nothing like that. 

CustoBS fozBS za^ulzad, nothing thaza, duzing 
flights nessagas, none. Filings with the United States 
Goveznnent, all the flight plans, I had nothing to do with 
them. 

e I understand, so you had nothing that is zesponslva 
to that part? 

A Evan to Pazt B, efforts to assist antl-govaznitant 
4lBO«s in Nicazagua with any parson directly or through 
third parties — there is nothing In there at all. 

NX. EG6LESX0K> The Individual Mho walked into the 



UNcussra 



56 



UNCUSSIFIED 



NXnE: HIR029000 lllllll HtJtlll II_IJ PAGE 8 



169 
170 
171 
172 
173 
171* 
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179 
180 
181 
182 
183 
18U 
185 
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189 
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191 
192 
193 



ropa shortly aiter the deposition started is a man by the 
naae oi Tom Sneeton. 

THE HITNESS: IB do you do. Ton. 

HR. SHEETON: Hou do you do. 

MR. EG6LEST0K: Hr . Smeeton is also involved with 
the House Select Committee. 

BY HR. EGGLESTOK- 
S As to point 2, all materials relating to, then I 
won't read the whole thing because it is a long list, 
related to various different corporations and individuals. 
Do you have any documents that are responsive to any of 
these? 

A No, I have no documents at all, just running 
through the names, there are certain names that appear that 
I do Know. 

S But you have no — 

HR. PLEGER: Talking about materials. 

HR. EGGLESTOK > You have no documents or materials 
or other information other than testimonial about any of 
these individuals? 

THE HITNESS' No, nothing. 

BY HE. EGGLESTOK: 
9 As to three, you produced your passport, you have 
produced an appointment — I guess it is — 
A A little ledger of my own there. 



^i^eussiflfB 



57 



UNCLASSIFIED 



KAHE: HIR029000 UlfULllUI/ll IIbU ^'^^^ ' 

19<l 2 Hav* you pioducad as wall othar addrass books and 

195 othaz eonpilatlons of addrassas during tha zalavant tima 

196 pazlod? 

197 k I hava addzassas haza of tha paopla> thay aza 

198 sczibblad down haza, of tha paopla fzoB thasa namas of nost 

199 of than. Tha zast I don't hava. Thasa waza all wzltten 

200 down. Thasa aza nanas that will coma up off this yallou 

201 pad. 

202 C But again as wa gat thzough it I will have these 

203 nazkad, but as to thasa, thasa aza nanas and addzasses that 
20M you hava pzoducad subsequent to youz zatuzn to the United 

205 States? 

206 A Cozzact. 

207 fi Thasa aza not doo'uaants that you had during tha 

208 couzse of tha tine that you waza in Centzal Aaazica? 

209 A Cozzaot. 

210 S Ua aza now at nuiibaz four, docuaents sufficient to 

211 identify bank accounts, residential telephone numbers used 

212 by respondent. I understand that you have produced to us 

213 aazliaz copies of your bank accounts and I take it that is 
21*t the only bank account that you maintained duzing this time 

215 BWClodT 

216 i', A Correct. 

217 e You did not have other bank accounts? 

218 A X have another bank account which Sally and I 



UNCLASSIHED 



58 



KAHK: 

219 

22 

221 

222 

223 

22X 

22S 

226 

227 

228 

229 

230 

231 

232 

233 

234 

235 

236 

237 

238 

239 

2140 

2*41 

2U2 

2t«3 



HIX029000 



UNdASSIRED 



PAGE 10 



accxuAd it many yaars ago 1 





e Is it a chacking account ox savings account? 

A I think wa just hava a savings account and a coupla 
bank loans, auto loans and IRXs thzough than. 

fi Okay. And was that bank account usad at all to 
zacaiva daposits iroa — 

A No, avazything that had to do with mysali, 
Cozpozata Aiz Sarvica, was all thzough th«H^^^^^^|Mational 
Bank. 

fi Fiva, copias of all natazials pzovidad dizaotLy oz 
indizactly thzough counsal. Hava you aada, iiva appaazs to 
zaiaz to documants which you aay hava pzovidad to othaz 
invastigativa and law aniozcanant agancias . Hava you aada 
docuaant pzoduction to any othaz govaznaant agancias? 

A No> just vazbal whan tha FBI and Custoas — wa had a 
aaating thaza in Hazinatta at Hz. Plagaz's oiiica . 

fi Lat aa ask you about that. I think that concludas 
tha quastions Z hava about tha subpoana. 

Lat aa ask you iizst, hava you tastiiiad fozaally 
pzloz to this? 

Ml. PLKGSR: No, ha has not. 
^ ZHK HZTNESS: No. 

HX. PLEGKR: Ha had about 7 oz 8 houzs oi 
intazvlaws by two FBI agants who waza wozklng at tha bahast 



yNCUSSIFIED 



59 



UNCLASSinED 



NAME: HIR029000 VI « VkflwUll IL.U PAGE 11 



2UU 
245 
2t46 
21*7 
248 
2M9 
250 
251 
252 
253 
2514 
255 
256 
257 
258 
259 
260 
261 
262 
263 
26U 
265 
266 
267 
268 



oi the Special ProsAcutor and thraa nan izom the Customs 
Sazvica, but he was not swozn. there was no transcript made, 
and no testimony taken as such. 

HR. EGGLESTOK: There Is a second page and I will 
get to that In just a second. 

BY HR. EGGLESTOK: 
Q Has the meeting you had with FBI and Customs, were 
those separate meetings or was that a joint meeting? 
A They were separate. 

HR. PLEGER: Do you want the dates oi those 
meetings? Does it make any difference? 

HR. EG6LEST0N: I would appreciate that actually if 
you have the dates. 

HR. PLEGER: The FBI meeting was January 5th> and 
January 6th with the people from Customs Service. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Those meetings took place at your 
office? 

HR. PLEGER' In Harlnetta, Hlsconsln. that is 
correct . 

HR. EGGLESTON: Let me return to subpoena 6, says 
all materials relating to legal proceedings by Nicazaguan 
ffMiozltles in 1986. 

p. HR. PLEGER: in that zegazd he didn't have 
materials, but I did. I did secuze a copy of the charges 
and I will give you one. I have a duplicate so if you aze 



HNaf,sfO 



60 



HAME: HIR029000 



l)N!;l^ssM 



PAGE 12 



269 
270 
271 
272 
273 
27U 
275 
276 
277 
278 
279 



interested in that, thexe it is. I also secured a photocopy 
oi his handwritten confession, however the photocopy is so 
poor that most of it you cannot read, but you are welcome to 
make a copy of it for what it is worth, and naybe get a 
better copy from Managua if they will share it with you. 

HR. EG6LEST0N: Could I have these narked as 
Committee Exhibits EH-1 and EH-2. 

(The following documents were marked as Exhibits EH- 
1 and EH-2 fox identification: 1 

xxxxsKxxx COHMITTEE INSERT xxxx*«xx 




61 



UNCLASSinED 



NAME: HIR029000 UllULnUlJIl IL.IJ PAGE 13 



280 
281 
282 
283 
28>4 
285 
286 
287 
288 
289 
290 
291 
292 
293 
2914 
295 
296 
297 
298 
299 
300 
301 
302 
303 
30U 



HR. E66LEST0N: Bttfois wtt procttad, lat a« ask. Is 
this tha bast copy oi what you hava of what is now EH-2. 

HR. PLEGER: Thay waxa both poor, ona was slightly 
battaz than tha othaz, and I didn't hava tha othaz to 
conpaza it with so I don't Know if you hava tha bast ona or 
not. 1£ I find a battaz ona, I will sand it along to you. 

You iiaka zaiazanca to statanants givan. Ha was 
intazviawad in jail and a tzansczipt was aada oi an 
intazviaw on Novaabaz 7, 1986 with an attoznay Laun, who was 
not his attoznay but was paznittad to intazviaw his in jail 
in Managua. I hava a copy o£ that tzansczipt. Z don't 
think it will ba oi any intazast to you, but ii you want to 
taka a iaw ninutas to look thzough and saa ii you want to 
hava it nazkad, I an suza that would ba iina. also. 

THE HITKESS: I havan't avan had a ohanca to sea 
that. 

HR. PLEGER: i gava a copy to Sally soma tina ago 
oi Laun's stataaant. 

HRS. SALLY HASEXFUS' I don't zaoall that. 

HE. PLEGER' Yas . 

Z think you will ilnd it daals pzimazily with tha 
ViMStion oi hoM thay waza traatad in his pzasanca. Tha 
•Jitoznay who took tha stataaant was wzitlng tha constitution 
ioz tha Nlcazaguan Govaznaant, tha Sandlnlsta Govaznaant, 
and Z think tha thrust oi it all was, aran't you baing 



UNCLASSIFIED 



62 



UNClASSiriED 



HAtlZ- MIK029000 VlVVkflWH IkV PAGE IM 



305 
306 
307 
308 
309 
310 
311 
312 
313 

3m 

315 
316 
317 
318 
319 
320 
321 
322 
323 
32<( 
325 



traatsd wall? Azan't thay taking good caza oi you — at laast 
that is what I got out of it. 
BY HR. EGGLZSTON: 

e Pzloz to this intazviaw with Hz. Laun on Kovanbaz 
7. 1986, had you avaz mat Hz. Laun baioza? 

A No, I had not nat hin at all. This was at a 
suzpzisa maating. Many of thasa waza sat up whaza all of a 
suddan thay would ooma up to my call and say somaona is heze 
to maat you. That is all. You go down and this was a 
pazticulaz suzpzisa, I was just ozdazad to answaz all his 
quastions tha way ha wantad thaa. 

e Hava you saan Hz. Laun sinca? 

A No, X hava not. 

2 And I taka it that batwaan Hovambaz 7 of 1986 and 
today, this is tha fizst tima you hava saan this? 

A This suzpzisas ma. I didn't aven know of this. 
HR. EGGLESTON: Lat ma hava this mazkad as EK-3. 
(Tha following documant was mazkad as Exhibit EH-3 
foz idantlfioation> ] 

»MMXMMMMM COHHITTEE INSERT xxxxxxxx 



VNCIASWD 



63 



NAME: 
326 
327 
328 
329 
330 
331 
332 
333 
3314 
335 
336 
337 
338 
339 
3(40 
3>41 
3tl2 
3*43 
3i4(« 
3>«5 
3U6 
3U7 
3*18 
3M9 
350 



HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 15 



BY HR. E6GLEST0N: 

S I an going to asK you about Item 1, about the 
subpoena as ue go through the questions that I will be 
asking. 

A Okay. 

e So essentially do you have anything else that is 
responsive to the subpoena? 

HR. PLEGER: I think that is all. Other than 
personal notes that I made down there, no, I have nothing 
that could be called a document oi the sort you ask for. 
BY MR. E6GLESI0N: 

e It is your understanding that you have noM turned 
over everything that you believe is responsive to the 
document portion oi the subpoena, Hr . Hasenfus? 

A Correct. Unless you want to get into military 
proof you know that I was in the Marines or I was in Air 
America, ii you need any documents like that, I have a copy 
here of my military record and stuff. As far as Air America 
going through there, it wasn't set up like the military or 
anything but I have an old book saying that I was a member 
of Air Amexloa, this one is dated 23 February '68, but it 
iMpt to bafoxe that. Hy employment with Air America was 
^< through 1972. 

S Okay . 

Let me have these marked EH-U and SH-5. Again I 



UNCLASSIHED 



64 



UNCUSSIFIEII 



KAnE: HIR029000 |l|ltJLJ!tlJlJll ll_U PAGE 16 



351 
352 
353 
3Si| 
355 



will copy tham and glva them back to you. 

[Th« following docunants wara maxkad as Exhibits EH- 
U and EH-5 for identification: ] 

xxxxxxxxx COHMITTEE INSERT *x**»*** 



mmsim 



65 



NAME: 
356 
357 
358 
359 
360 
361 
362 
363 
36U 
365 
366 
367 
368 
369 
370 
37 1 
372 
373 
374 
375 
376 
377 
378 
379 
380 



HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 17 



MR. EGGLESTON: EH-4 is a copy of Mr. Hasenfus' 
militazy record; and EH-5 is a copy of a documant which 
zaflacts that he had sone affiliation with Air America. 

THE WITNESS ! That is all these do. This is just a 
medical certificate which you had to have from the FAA. 
This is just some fund from Air America, I don't think it 
has any regards to anything. It will have my name on it 
showing that I was in Air America the same as this, 
according to the address. 

I do have ID cards from Air America but I did not 
bring them with me. Hhat happened, while I was away and 
Sally was aware the pop. that were in our house sort of took 
over and they had a little nerve center running a free 
Hasenfus campaign, so much' of this was taken out of the 
house, pictures and stuff like this that were from Vietnam, 
and if they are necessary. I can produce them at another 
time. 

MR. EGGLESTON: if we decide they are necessary, I 
will ask your attorney to contact you. 

MR. PLEGER: That relate to photographs? 

MR. EGGLESTON: Hr . Hasenfus just indicated that he 
tkought ha might have back at the house — 

THE WITNESS: I have an ID card and another 
passport or passports that will show I was in the vicinity 
of Southeast Asia throughout this time period with Air 



UNCUSSIFIEB 



66 



NAME: 
381 
382 
383 
38(4 
385 
386 
387 
388 
389 
390 
391 
392 
393 
3914 
395 
396 
397 
398 
399 
UOO 

«roi 

402 
403 
•404 
1405 



HIR029000 



DNliUdoifitO 



PAGE 18 



Anerica, it will show visas, tima in and out of Laos< time 
in, etiquette^. 

HR. EGGLESTOK: I think that would ba halpiul. If 
you can provide copies of those to the comnittee I would 
appreciate it. 

THE WITNESS: The only other thing I have is a 
couple school certificates from the Service. I don't know 
if they would be applicable. They were just from schools, 
the regular school and airborne school and stuff like that, 
and a certificate of acceptance into the Marines and my 
discharge and stuff like that. 

MR. EGGLESTOK: Hhy don't you leave those With me 
and I will look at them after the deposition is over and' we 
will decide which of those we need to make copies of. 

MR. PLEGER: Again for the record, you asked for 
earlier passports he said he had and what else? Is that it. 
there was some reference to photographs. 

THE WITNESS: There are no photographs, but what we 
are talking about is I have an ID card. 

HR. PLEGER: All right. 

THE WITNESS: An 10 card from Air America, but I 
h*v« two AMpired passports. 

HR. PLEGER: All right. 

MR. EGGLESTON: If you would produce those to the 
committee. I would appreciate it. 



(■<.lUi 



ii^iti 



67 



MAKE: 
U06 
U07 
<408 
M09 

mo 

t4l 1 
■412 
U13 

mi 

415 
U16 
U17 
<418 
419 
■420 
421 
422 
423 
424 
425 
426 
427 
428 
429 
430 



HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 19 



HR. PLE6ER: These should be sent to your 
attention? 

HR. EGGLESTON: Yes. 
BY HR. EGGLESTOM: 

Q Hx. Hasenfus, now what I would like to do is just 
ask you a series of questions > substantially in 
chronological fashion, starting as I always start with 
background and up through essentially your return to the 
United States in late 1986. 

As we do this ii at any time you don't understand 
the question or I have phrased it poorly or you need sore 
information before you can answer, just let me know and I 
will rephrase it or whatever in order to help you out. 
Can you tell us where were you born. 

A Born in Marinette, Wisconsin. 

fi And what is your date of birth? 

A January 22, 1941 . 

2 And where did you grow up? 

A I grew up in Haxlnatte County. 

S How much education have you had? 

A Twelfth grade. 

S And I take it there comes a time when you enter 
tMe the military, the Marines? 

A Correct. 

e Hhat year was that? 



««CLJSSIflEO 



68 



1(31 
U32 
1433 
U3I4 
M35 
M36 
437 
•438 
•439 
(440 
i4<41 
•4 (42 
i4<43 
1414(4 
14(45 
(4(46 
447 
14148 
14149 
1450 
1451 
(452 
1453 
(45(4 
(455 



UNOASSIFIED 



MAKE: HIR029000 |||llal II A \ rP I r 1 1 PAGE 20 



A It was 1959, 

fi And betwaen tha tlma that you — is thara a pariod of 
tlaa batwaan the tina you graduated fion high school or 
twalith gzada and tima you antarad into tha Hazines? 

A No, it was tight aiter graduation. Actually I 
joined tha Marines in active reserve one year beiore I 
graduated . 

e So essentially you graduated from high schools and 
iBiiediately entered the Marines. 

A Correct. 

e When were you discharged iron the Marines? 

A 1965. 

e During the course of tine you ware in tha Marinas, 
where were you stationed? 

A I was stationed at Caiip Pendleton, Okinawa, Canp 
Pendleton, discharged. 

e How Buch of the five years that you were in the 
Marines, how much of that time did you spend at Camp 
Pendleton? 

A The majority of the time. It was probably 13 or IM 
months in overseas duty. 

fi Hhat rank did you achieve by the time that you had 
It? 

A B-(|. 

e Is that — is there another word for E-(4? 



DNDIAS^IFIEO 



69 



NAME 
MS6 
^57 

usa 

(|59 
■460 
H6) 
462 
■463 
UbH 
465 
466 
467 
468 
469 
470 
471 
472 



HXR029000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 21 



A Coxpoxal. It usod to b« Sargaant but it changed 
ovax to Corporal. 

S Old you have a particular area of training or 
axpartlsa while you ware in the tlarinas? 

A Air delivery, I was a 7141, airborne delivery, was 
the last. I studied for this school in the Marines. 

S So could you just describe what that is? Hhat does 
it mean to be an expert in air delivery? 

A This was an airborne qualified and what would do, 
we were aerial resupply for all aquipaent, any combat for 
small and heavy cargo. 

fi I take it you were not a pilot? 

A Ko, I was not a pilot. 

fi And what--durin9 the period of time you were in 
Okinawa what ware your duties whan you ware thara? 

A I was on 311 which is field Infantry and I was in 
coniiunications at the time. 



UNCIASSIHEO 



70 



NAHZ 
U73 
l»7i» 
•475 
U76 
«I77 
'♦78 
i»79 
((80 
481 
U82 
1483 
I48<4 
■485 
i486 
1487 
1488 
•489 
490 
•491 
•492 
493 
•49t4 
•495 
•496 
•497 



HIR029000 



DCnN STEVENS 



VNcussm 



PAGE 22 



fi Lat ma just ask you soma quastions . I hava skippad 
ovar them. 

Nou, I taka It you ara maxxiad. 
A Yes. 

C And youx wife's name? 
A Sally Hasanf us . 
2 Do you hava any chlldxan? 
A Thxea. 

e Could you glva us thalx namas . 
A 




fi Ca n you giva us youx cuxxant addxass? 

A 

C ^ Thank you. 

Aitax you lait tha Haxlna Coxps> Z taka It you 
became amployad by Alx Amaxica? 

A Yes. Z lait tha Haxlnas In 1965 and I xatuxnad 
home and my bxothax and Z xan a paxaohuta school. Zt is a 
jump cantax, but wa txainad, xlggad, salas and saxvica of 
all paxaohuting equipment and sky diving suppoxt. 

a Hhat is youx bxothax 's nama? 

A Bill Hasanf us. 

S Has that back in — 

A That was in Omxo, Uisoonsln. 



iJNCUSSinEO 



71 



NAME: 
1498 
499 
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501 
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51 1 
512 
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HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 23 



fi Could you spall that? 

A 0-m-r-o. 

2 And how long ware you i,n that occupation? How long 
did you run the parachute school? 

A He were together naybe about a year there, and 
there just wasn't enough to supply both o£ us there, but 
then I--at this ti»e--yes, I inquired about Air America. 

2 Okay. You inquired about Air America. 

A Yes. 

e How had you heard about Air America? 

A Hhen I was in the Haxines there was a few people, 
or single person that was with Aiz America from my H&S, and 
I heard about it, and talked about it, but after I got out 
of the Marines, things weren't going that good, so I said, 
well, I l9ot to find this address, I am going to check it 
out. 

I was just a young kipd then. So I went through Job 
Service, of all places, and within a couple days they gave 
ma an address and avazything so Z sent in my resume with all 
my materials and that, and I was hired from than. 

S Let me ask you. I want to sort of phrase a time 
4«aation haze. The people that you met and were Involved 
i^th in tha military during the time that you ware with the 
Hazlnas, have you maintained contact with any of those 
people? 



wNCussm 



72 



523 
5214 
525 
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527 
528 
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530 
531 
532 
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5(40 
5141 
5142 
5143 
514 14 
5t45 
5>46 
5"47 



HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 2>4 



A No, I have not. 

e So non« of the people you worked with during the 
tlaa period July of 1986 through October of 1986, they were 
not people whoa you had net or knew in the Marines? 

A No. 

S When is it that you started to work for Air 
America? 

A It was in October of 1966. 

S And how long had you renained with Air America? 

A Until 1972. 

Q And where were you stationed or where did you work 
during that period of time? 

A Southeast Asia, the main parts being Vientiane,' 
Laos, and Saigon. Those are the two main. 

Q naybe I will just take a chronological order. How 
long were you in Laos and how long were you in Saigon? 

A I was probably four-and-a-half years in Saigon and 
the rest of the time was in Laos. 

fi Did you begin in Saigon? 

A I started in Laos, that was the main station, and 
from there Z want to Saigon, and then back to Laos, back to 
ftelgon, and back to Laos. 

' . fi During the time you worked for Air America, did you 
work anyplace other than in Southeast Asia? 

A No. That was it. Strictly Southeast Asia. 



WNWSSIflffl 



73 



HAHE: 

sua 

5U9 
550 
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S5M 
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562 
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5614 
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571 
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HIR029000 UkvW^riWII IkU PAGE 25 

2 Did you have substantially tha sana job during tha 
approxinately six years or so that you vara with Air 
laarica? 

A Correct. This was as an air freight specialist. 

Q What did that itean in the context oi your job; what 
is it that you ware doing? 

A It was your responsibility to load tha aircraft to 
its proper aircraft linitations , your ACL, naKe sure the 
right cargo was on and prepared for air delivery, etiquette, 
everything to do, whether air delivery load or point-to- 
point load. 

8 If you will pardon ma, soma of these expressions 
are not that faniliar to ma. Point-to-point means, I taRe 
it — 

A A landing point. In other words, if we could take 
off from Vientiane and want to Long Ihinh and landed, that 
would be point-to-point. In other words, your landing and 
returning . 

Air delivery is you take off from one point and return to 
the same point after delivering the cargo. 

e In that situation I take it you deliver it by tha 
glana as It was flying, with parachutes. 

A Yes, it is called air delivery and it was all by 
pmxaohuta; sometimes free-falling. 

e Let me ask you tha sama kind of question I just 



^^nmm 



74 



NAME: 

573 
ST* 
575 
576 
577 
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HIR029000 



UNCussra 



?kGZ 26 



askad you about thtt nilltazy. Kara thara paopla that you 
■at and got to know during tha pariod of tina that you ueza 
Mlth Hiz Anezica that you later worXad with during tha tlma 
July 1986 through Octobar 1986? 

A Yes. 

S Hho Hare those? 

They were^^^^^m^^^^|^^^^^|^^^^^|Blll Cooper- 

fi Hr . Hasanius, Xi you would hold up for a second on 
that. Could you repeat tha naaas again? 

A 
William J. Cooper. 




Those were all individuals that wa woxkad together with 
Air America in Southeast Asia prior. 

fi After you left Air America, did you maintain 
contact with any of these individuals? 

A Not really. ,Hilliam Cooper dropped a line, but it 
was vary seldom. Evazy onoa in a whila. you would receive 
calls in tha middle of tha night, different times, but there 
was no aotual communications to do anything. It was just 

rzmdarla, old friends just saying hi. 
a X Mill get back as wa gat further on — Z will get 
baok into who these paopla are and what their duties were 
and what they did in tha tlma you waza in Central America. 



i^V 



'^lA 




75 



KAME: 

598 
599 
600 
601 
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61 1 
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6m 
615 
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619 
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621 
622 



HIK029000 



IINtlASSra 



PAGE 27 



But fox now l«t ne asK you. w«ra you xasponslble, were you 
in charge of loading the airplanes whan you were with Air 
Aaerica? 

Here you the supervisor or whatever? 

A When we were at the out stations we would load it 
physically, whatever means were at hand, whatever was out 
there, forklifts. whatever the custoner provided, but we 
would put it in the aircraft, tie it down, secure it in its 
proper place for whatever, naybe land or air delivery 
procedures . 

In Vientiane, itself, or a lot of times Udorn, or Saigon, 
itself, there was traffic facilities as we call it. Aiz 
America called it traffic facilities, they would have air 
freight dispatchers that loaded the aircraft, before you 
took off you would just double check and supervise that it 
was correct and you made out a weight and balance, or 
aircraft log would be brought up to date. 

2 Did you accompany the flights on their deliveries? 

A Yes, I was flight crew. 

S And what — when you were with Air America, what kind 
of material were you transporting? 

A He transferred all aid being wheat, bulgar. rice. 
agzloultuzal tools, and always small arms and ammunition to 
support all the forces that were working with the United 
States . 



UNCUOTffl 



76 



KAHE: 
623 
62U 
625 
626 
627 
628 
629 
630 
631 
632 
633 
63<4 
635 
636 
637 
638 
639 
6i«0 

em 

6>t2 
6>I3 

6^5 

646 



HIR029000 



uHateSifii.u 



PAGE 28 



e Do you know who owned Air Anarlca during the period 
of tlaa that you worked for them? 

A I do not know the nain corporation, no. But there 
was a iew companies that were involved. 

fi Do you know the nanes oi any o£ those companies? 

A Southern Air Transport was one > Civil Air 
Transport, which was CIT> and Air Asia, which was a huge 
maintenance faculty that the government had also contracted 
with for their aircraft. 

e I am not sure I quite understood. Haybe you didn't 
understand me. I asked you if you know who owned Air 
America. You responded with Southern Air Transport and 
various others. 

A No. no. there was a corporation that owned all these 
that I mentioned. 

e Okay. There is a corporation that owned — 

A Southern Air Transport. Civil Air Transport, and 
Air Asia. Hhat the main heading Has> I don't know. 

2 Just so Z am clear, you think that one corporation 
owned all of these air transports? 

A Yas . 

e Do you know the name of that corporation? 

1 Xo, Z don't. 

e Did you once know It and have now forgotten it or 
did you never know what it was? 



mmM^ 



77 



sill 



6>48 
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HIR029000 gH^|||H|J|J||- IHJ PAGE 29 

A I may have once knoun and forgotten. That could be 
vary possible. 

8 To your knowledge, was Air America — let me ask you 
that way, who were the customers ior Air America? 

A The customers could be all the way jErom embassy 
personnel, to what we call other people in aid programs such 
as USAID, USOH, and some of these were even Peace Corps 
individuals . 

2 The customers for whom you transported arms, what 
customers were they? 

A They were mainly — they would come under the heading 
of CIA or embassy. 

C Do you have any Knowledge of whether or not the CIA 
owned Air America? 

A This was brought up all tha time to tha best of my 
Knowledge, though I never seen any of my checKs or anything, 
they were all wire transfers and stuff. I never had any CIA 
affiliation or 10 cards or none of us did. 

It was all strictly Air America. Air America only. 

B So you have no personal Knowledge about whether or 
not the CIA owned Air America? 

A No. 

e Hhat kind of planes did you fly in when you were 
with Air America? Here they similar to the planes that you 
flew in Central Amazlca? 



UNULASS 



78 



NAHK: 
673 
6714 
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68>t 
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688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
69U 
695 
696 
697 




HIR029000 yilllLTIUUII IViV P&GK 30 

k YttS, v«ry Buoh so. Ha had C-123s. Th«y w«ra tha B 
■odals convartad Into K modals. Ha had Caribous, youx DHC- 
i*», wa had C-t<7s. C->«6s, spaclal pxojaet wa had C-130s. Wa 
had also twin Ottaxs and thosa waxa our aain cargo aircrait. 

e Lat na ask you, just laaping ahaad out of 
chronology slightly, what kinds oi planas wara usad during 
tha tiaa you wara in Cantral Aaarica? 

A Caribous, DHC-I and C-123K. 

e You indicatad that you wara paid during tha pariod 
of tiaa with Air Anarica by wira transiar. Could you 
dascriba how that workad? 

A Uhan wa wara hirad by Air Aaarica thay just askad 
whathar wa would want our pay racords kapt or who t« aall 
to. I gava than my bank which was thai 
Bank at that tina in Karinatta, Hlsconsln, and avarything 
was just wira transiarrad thara and Z would just gat a 
stataaant from my bank onca a month saying how much monay 
was put into it. 

fi Uhara did you gat, if you pardon tha colloquial 
aKprasslon, walking around monay? Z taka it you wara in 
Southaast Alia and your bank account was in Wisconsin. 
^. A Hhlla you wara in Southaast Asia through your own 
«l|||f0lls or oradit cards. 

S Okay. By your own ohaoks, you maan that you would 
wrlta a chaok that than would ba cashad somawhara? 



ytlCLASSlFltO 



79 



NAME 
698 

699 

700 
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70t» 
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HIR029000 



yNClASHD 



PAGE 31 



A You could cash a chaoK through tha anbassy or 
Aaarlcan Association thara or at savaral othar banks 
locally, you know, thay w^uld taka Amarlcan chaoks, yas . 

fi And how nuch wara you paid whan you wara with Air 
Anarica? 

A I think I startad out with a basa pay o± somathing 
lika just about «700 a month than it workad on what you call 
ovartima, anything ovar 70 hours flown you got *10 an hour 
for and than you got what thay call a projact pay, any tima 
you wara flying in a combat zona, it was so much mora, I 
forgat tha axact amount, than if you wara air dalivaring 
into combat, othars you would gat lika «50 a targat. 

e Lat ma ask, you gava us a list aarliar and I would 
lika to raturn to tha list' although I will ask you about 
what thair rolas wara in Cantral Amarica, but you gava us a 
list of individuals with whoa you had workad whan you wara 
with Air Amarica. 

I would lika to go through tha list with you and ask you 
what thair jobs wara whan thay wara with Air Amarica and 
what your ralationship was to aach of tham. Tha first nama 
wai^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hj 

A ^^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hwara 
4^El9ht spaoialists. 



mmim 



80 



KAHK: 

721 
722 
723 
72U 
725 
726 
121 
IZZ 
729 
730 
731 
732 
733 
73U 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
7M0 
741 
7U2 
7<I3 
7«»'4 
7M5 



HIR029000 
DCHN DOKOCK 



t/"oUSSIfIfB 



PAGE 32 



9 Doas that nean that you on occasion ilaw with than? 

A Now and than, yas, w«ll# Ilka in C-13s, wa would fly 
two craw iiambars in tha back and. 

Q And waza thay with you during tha antira tiaa that 
you uara with Air Anarica in Southaast Asia, or a 
substantial part oi tha tiaa? 

A Yes. 

fi Probably not tha antira tiaa? 

A No, it was on and ofi, diiiarant tiaas . 

e And Hr . Coopar, what was his position with Air 
Anarica? 

A Mr. Coopar was a pilot. 

e Did you on occasion fly with hia? 

A Yas, all tha othar naaas that I gava you wara all 
pilots, and I flaw with thaa on aany occasions. 

e So, 
wara all pilots? 

A Coxzaot. 

e Lat aa just taXa thaa ona at a tiaa so it is aasiar . 
Hr. Coopar. was ha with Air Aaarioa during a substantial 
^ptxtion of tha tiaa that you wara with Air Aaarica? 
..^ A Yas, ha was in full-tiaa, probably avan longar than 
Z was . 

And^^^^^^^H 



ii*iuUoolf]£0 



81 



746 
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HIR029000 



UhbLhooihtO 



PAGK 33 



A ^^^Hl didn't ily with much until th« latt«r part 
Hhan ha was transiariad to Laos, and h« il«w C-i46s in Saigon 
and than ha was tzansiarrad to Laos, uhara ha was chackad 
out in C-13-Ks. and that uas his priaary aizctaft, and I 
ileu with hlB on and ofi thaza . 
S 

A Ha flaw Cazibous and italnly I nat him in Viantiana, 
Laos . 

2 Cazibou is ona of tha kinds of planas that you had 
in Cantzal Anazlca? 
A Yas. 

Is that also zafazzad to as a C-7? 

C-7A is tha Alz Fozca nomanolatuza for It. 

Tha Alz Forca would call It a C-7A? 

Yas. 

And tha conaarcial nana Is Cazibou? 

Or DHC-U. 

And^^^^^^^ 

raally navaz flaw with hia hardly any. 
Ha was in a saall alzczaft ovaz thaza that didn't zaally 
carry any omrgo. 

B Did you — I think I askad you this onca bafoza. but 
^jpt aa ask you again, aza thaza any paopla on this list whom 
you aalntain olosaz contaot with than othazs? 

A I would say Hilliam Coopaz> as far as tha pilots go. 




briOLhooO iCi) 



82 



uNcussm 



NAHE: HIS029000 |JllWknW^#"* ■w^ PAGE 3H 



771 
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78it 
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786 
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788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
79i» 
795 



would ba th* elosast ona that I kapt contact with. 

[and^^m^^^^^^^H vazy 
baoausa wa vara all air izalght spaclallsts and thazafora, 
ouz dutlas waza all tha saaa, and wa would zun into aach 
othaz mora izaquantly. 

e Okay. 

Thaza coaas a tlaa whan you laava Alz Anazica. do 
you zanambaz what yaaz that was > 1972? 

A To tha bast oi ay knowladga> It was 1972. I would 
hava to look at my passpozt to gat tha cozzact data on it, 
zaally . 

fi Aftaz you lait. what did you do? 

A Uhan I lait, I cama hoaa and wozkad with my bzothaz 
again at this dzop cantaz.' 

e How long did you wozk with him? 

A Oh, it had to ba just about a yaaz, I baliava. 

e What I would lika to do now is just taka you thzough 
youz — iaizly quickly — thzough youz amploymant izom tha tima 
you lait Air Amarioa up until, say, July 1986. ii you could 
just taka ma thzough. 

A Aitar laaving Aiz Amazloa. I cama back with my 
fe9»tliaz. wozkad approximataly a yaaz thara, and than izoa 
JlP^a. Z staztad wozking in haavy constzuction. fzom thaza. 
I wozkad zlght stzaight thzough, that was my main 
occupation, jouznayman stzuetuzal izon wozkaz with Union 



ONWSSIflEfl 



83 



NAME 

796 
797 
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799 
800 

80 1 
802 
803 
SOU 
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806 
807 
808 
809 
810 

81 1 
812 
813 
8114 
815 
816 
817 
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819 
820 



HIR029000 



utiCiASsra 



PAGE 35 



Local 8 out of nilwauke*, Hlsoonsin. Hhleh goas all th« way 
up to Northftxn Wisconsin. 

That would taka me right up to this tima, uhata 
Coopax was starting to call ma. 

8 Thara comas a tima during this pariod that you gat 
marriad to Sally. What yaar was that? 
A That was 1973, yas. 
2 Shortly than aitar, you raturnad? 
A Yas. Corraot. 
fi From Air Amarica. 
A Yas. 

HR. PLEGERs Did I miss somathing hara? 
HRS. SALLY HASEKFUS) 1974, Gan* . 
HR. PLE6ER: That will cost you. 
BY HR. EGGLESTON: 
e During tha pariod o£ tima from 19 — whan you laft Air 
Amarica — 72 or 1973, up to July 1986, did you avar work with 
any of tha individuals whosa namas you gava us,| 
C o o p a r , ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 
A Can you rapaat tha yaaxs again? 
e rxoB tha tima you lait Air Amarica. 1973 — 
A No, I did not woxk with any of tham ox saa tham. 
I think that duxlng that paxiod of tima, you 
probably didn't avan saa any of tham? 
A I didn't saa any of tham, no. 



uv:i 



^ 




84 



NAHE: 
821 
822 
823 
821 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
83K 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
81*0 
8U1 
8K2 
8143 
8t|<4 
81(5 



HIR029000 



ONCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 36 



fi You did not s«« any of th«ii. 

1 No. 

fi And during this period of tine, the sort o£ 13-year 
period of tiae , where were you living? 

A I was living in Wisconsin/ main address I lived at 
was Onro, Hisconsin, for approxinately a year; then we moved 
to narinette, Wisconsin, where we stayed all through this. 

e Okay. Prior to July 1986--let me fix a date. What 
month was it or what day, if you recall, did you arrive down 
in Central America? 

A It was--it is in that booK, I believe it was the 9th. 

e Of July? 

A Of July. 

S Prior to that time, had you ever been to Central 
America? 

A Ko, I had not. Except In the Marines at the time 
Guantanamo broke out, we went through the Panama Canal. 

2 You had never spent any time in Central America? 
A Not as a civilian oz anything, no. 

e There comes a time, as Z understand it, when you 
received Information or a telephone call from Hr . Cooper: is 
MlKt cozzeot? 
; A Cozzeot. 

S What month was that? 

A These weze in June Z stmzted getting phone calls 




85 



KAHE: 
8146 
8U7 
SMS 
8U9 
850 
851 
852 
853 
85U 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 
861 
862 
863 
86M 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 




No. X did not aaxk down any sp*olflc dmtas that ha 



HI8029000 ^nU/ii'rU^ "" '' 

froa ffr . Coopat. 

fi Juna 1986? 

t Cortact. 

2 And do you zacall, do you know uhara Hr . Coopaz was 
caliing you from during tha iirst such convarsation? 

A SoBa of thasa calls. I baliava. caaa iroal 

othar phona calls caaa f zoa in tha Statas . 

2 Do you caaaahaz what day tha iizst talaphona call 
caaa? 

A 
callad. 

fi Do you hava a zacollaction whathaz it was aazly 
Juna. lata Juna. aid-Jtma? 

A Probably startad oii in aarly Juna. soaa of his 
iirst calls, yas . 

Q Batwaan tha tiaa that ha iirst callad you. and tha 
tiaa whan I taKa it you agraad that you would taka on this 
assignaant. how aany tiaas did you spaak with hia? 

A Probably approKiaataly fouz oz flva tiaas. 

fi Kara thay all talaphona oonvazsations? 

A Corzaot. 

ft Did you know whara ha was calling izoa7 

A No. Ha navar raally told aa. 

fi Z taka it thara wara tiaas whan you just assuaad 



iroa soaa- 



bi'iluwi 



ilflED 



86 



KANE 
871 
872 
873 
871* 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
8811 
885 
886 
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888 
889 
890 
891 
892 
893 
89i| 
895 




HIR029000 UllULnWII'l^"' PAGE 38 
.A I an saying that right now, just listening to 
t«laphona conversations when I callad hona iron is^^| 
^^^^^^■and talking with Uilliaa aitar a uhila, that ha was 
calling ^^^^^^I^^^^H sonatinas, nayba from Florida othar 
times whan he was traveling back and forth between Florida, 
or the United States andl 

e Let me just direct your attention to the first 
conversation. Do you have much of a recollection as you sit 
here today about what the first conversation was that you 
had with hin? 

A One of his first calls, he was just calling to see 
more or less how I was, what was happening, and there would 
be a possible job coming up in Central America. Thera was 
nothing affirmative on it.' 

e Do you remember how long the first call was? 

A It was just a short call. It wasn't very long. 
Haybe a matter of four or five minutes. 

fi Over the course of the calls, I take it you probably 
don't have a raoollaetion of each individual phone call and 
what was said during each calli is that correct? 

A Correct. 

fi Can you maybe . summarizing them together, tell us 
utet It is that he said to you about what the job will be, 
who you will be working for, various things like that? 

A Ha didn't say that much over tha phone, because he 



ijisCUSSIFlEO 



87 



KAnZ: HIR029000 



896 
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899 
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DiHUUbSiriED 



PAGE 



39 



didn't know any of th*n> aspaclally out o i^^^^^^^^^^^o r 
tha Statas, ha just said ha would talk with us latax on whan 
H« aat in parson. But ha was definitaly talking about 
working Southaast Asia, it would ba tha sana axact kind of 
job we did in Air Anarica, atiquatta lika this hara. 

e Did ha tall you who your amployar would ba? 

A Ko, ha didn't. 



yi^tlAjjUi 



88 



NAHZ: 
903 
90*4 
905 
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909 
910 
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912 
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91t4 
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919 
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921 
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92it 
925 
926 
927 



HIR029000 



RPTS BRADFIELD 



DCHN OONOCX 



%j: 



mil 



PAGE to 



10:30 a.m. 

fi Did h« tell you th« purposa, did he tell you 
anything about what the mission — pardon the use of the 
uord--the nissions would be? 

A Nothing ovez the telephone, no. 

S Okay, so is it faiz to suniiazize that duting the 
course of the telephone calls, he indicated to you that 
there would be a job available? It would be similar to what 
the job would be in Southeast Asia? 

A His exact words were just about it will be the sane 
as we were doing over in Southeast Asia, different 
geographic location, dliie'rent tine period. 

fi Did he tell you how long the job would last? 

A No, he didn't really a time on it. This could last 
a couple oi weeks or a few years. 

fi Did he tell you, ovez the telephone now, how much 
you would get paid? 

A Yes, that he did. 

fi Do you recall how much he said you would get paid? 

A It was this, 3,000 a month. 
'E 8 During the course of the telephone conversations, 
did he tell you anything — as I understand it, you got a 
slightly additional amount if you crossed into Nicazagua? 




89 



NAHE 

928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93X 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
9X0 
9i4l 
9(|2 
9K3 
91414 
9t45 
9X6 
9X7 
9X8 
9X9 
950 
951 
952 



HIR029000 



UNCussra 



PAGE XI 



A This cane latex on through convexsatlons that we 
had. It varied quite a bit. 

2 During that initial conversation, he did not say 
anything to you about additional pay? 

A Correct. 

S Did he tell you you would be paid the sane way you 
would be paid through the wire transfers, with Air America? 

A Yes . 

S Now, I an looking at your book here. Your book 
indicates that you left Green Bay for Hiani on July 7, 1986? 

A Correct. 

fi How nuch prior to that had you told Cooper that you 
were willing to sign on? 

A It was right aroun'd July 1st or 2nd, right up in 
there when we started making definite phone calls. Well, 
okay, if this is going to happen, we will wait until after 
the Xth of July, so we could be with our families. 

C July 7th was a Monday, is that correct? 

A I would have to look at a calendar. 

2 Did you have a number where you could call him? 

A Yes, he gave me a niuibar which was Southern Air 
tt«asport. 
■It S In Niami? 

A Correct. 

2 Did you call him at the number? 



\]H!;US«D 



90 



NAME: HIR029000 IIAll I ill t'lriin PAGE U2 



953 
9SM 
955 
956 
957 
958 
959 
960 
961 
962 
963 
9614 
965 
966 
967 
968 
969 
970 
971 
972 
973 
97U 
975 
976 
977 



VmSSIFIED 



A Ko. 

fi Did you Know it was the numbax fox Southazn Air 
Tzanspozt? 

A I didn't zeally, but what happened there. Bill 
called--uhat he wanted to — he called back later on during this 
time from the 1st of July until the 7th of July. He called 
back several times just making sure that he would have my 
flight number, time of arrival, so he could meet me at the 
airport, little things he would forget. 

& Okay, and so during that period of time, he told you 
he might call you, that you could call him at a particular 
number? 

A Yes, he gave me Langton's number. 

2 L-a-n-g-t-o-n? 

A Yes, L-a-n-g-t-o-n. 

Yes, in case there was a mix-up > or we didn't meet 
at the airport or go to that Holiday Inn that is close to 
Hiami Airport there. 

C At that time, did you know Langton's position? 

A He told me he was President of Southern Air 
Transport. 

fi Cooper had given you Langton's phone number? 

A Correct. 

e Does that appear in this book? 

A Ko, it doesn't. When Hilliam.was calling me, I 



UNCLASSIHED 



91 



NAHE: 
978 
979 
980 
981 
982 
983 
98K 
985 
986 
987 
988 
989 
990 
991 
992 
993 
9914 
995 
996 
997 
998 
999 
1000 
1001 
1002 



HIR029000 



UNClASSra 



PAGE 143 



gxabbad a placa of papaz> an env«lop«> staztad jotting 
things down; and all this stufi was thrown in ay brieicase; 
and I had it with aa . 

All nuabazs and naaas and things lika this hara> 
tickets, it was laft in ay brlafcasa. 

e Hhan you said you had it with you, what do you nean? 

A I cazriad it with aa . I was going to transfer a lot 
of thasa, soaa I did, transfarrad into hara, addresses, just 
phona nuabar. But I was putting it off always to another 
day to gat a corzact address book and all of that, but I 
never did. 

Hhat happened with all these addresses, ticka-ts, 
after I was shot down, when I want to all ay rooas and 
recruited all ay aatarial, ' they want through ay briefcase 
and anything that had to do with Southern Air Transport 
tickets, everything was conilsoatad. 

2 Hho went to your rooa after you ware shot down? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^M That saae day was 
shot down, ha oaaa Into^^^^^^^^ftroa the 

2 Okay, you aaan people who ware working with you, 
youz 00-wozkazs? 

I Yas. wall,^^^Kold aa, I talked to hia, and he said 
^IH that stuff was in ay bziafcase when he tuzned it ovez. 

S Did ha tall you who ha tuznad it ovez to? 

A ^^^^^^^^^^^Hoz Southazn Aiz Tzanspozt. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



92 



NAnE= HIR029000 



1003 
lOOU 
1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 



^^(iU^Kii 




PAGE im 



Corzaet. 

I bttllava — I stand to b* cozzacted on that. 
Could M« hav« this nazkad EH-6? 

[Tha following docunants waza mazkad as Exhibit EH-6 
ioz idantiilcation: 1 



cEMcrraE 

xxxxxxxxxx IMSEKT 2-1 xxxxxxxxx 



liNCLASSiilED 



93 



NAnE- 

1011 
1012 
1013 
101U 
1015 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 
1022 
1023 
1024 
1025 
1026 
1027 
1028 
1029 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
103U 
1035 



HIK029000 



MimS) 



PAGE (45 



BY KR. EGGLESTOM: 

e How did you g«t from Hisconsin down to Hlaal? 

i ComB«rolal air. 

e Hho paid fox tha tlckats? 

A I paid iox ay own tlckats. 

fi Uaxa you avax xainbuxsad for that? 

A Ko> wa would hava to pay our own txanspoxtation to 
Hlaiii and back to your own addrass all tha tin*. That was a 
part oi our contract. 

e Did Coopar actually naat you at tha airport? 

A Yas, ha did. 

fi Has anyona with hia? 

A Ha was by himsali whan ha mat aa. 

e Did you — whara did' ha taka you? 

A Ha want to ona of tha rafxashaant loungas in tha 
aixpoxt itsalf> bacausa wa wara waiting foi^^^^^^^^^^^to 
coaa in at tha saaa tiaa. and also thaxa was anothar 
individual by tha naaa o^^^^^^^^B anothar pilot. Ha wara 
waiting fox thaa to coaa in also. 

fi Haxa thay nawly xacxuitad? 

A No> just fxashly xaoxuitad. 

fi Old you know^^^^Hpriox to this tiaa? 

A Yas . '^^^^^^^■iknaw in Viantiana. Laos, ha was a 
oo-pilet on Caxibous . ^^^^^^^^B h* oaaa to work for 
Cozporata Aiz Sazvloas, thaxa foz probably a waak, navax 



yK!;:.:,";n[o 



94 



KAHE: 

1036 
1037 
1038 
1039 
10<40 
1041 
1042 
10(43 
lOMU 
1045 
1046 
1047 
1048 
1049 
1050 
1051 
1052 
1053 
1054 
1055 
1056 
1057 
1058 
1059 
1060 



MIK029000 



UNClASSIFiED 



PAGE 46 




zaally flaw anything, and ha want back hona and tarmlnatad 
hlBsali. 

e Ha was with you down in^^^^^^^^Hior a waak? 

A A eoupla of uaaks, yas, about that, 
cama togathaz, wa waza hltad togathaz. 

fi Dld^^^^^^Hstay on until Octobaz? 

A Yas, ha was ona of tha last paopla thaza. yas. 

fi Ouzing tha tima you waza in — how long did you zaaain 
in niami baioza you want down tol 

A Two days, I baliava I got in tha 7th, lata in tha 
aitaznoon, and wa lait^^^^^lthat flight azound 3>20 izom 
niani. 

S How many paopla want down togathaz tc 
who andad up wozking with you? 




and aysali only,] 

idld not go down with you? 



Did Coopaz go down with you? 

No, just^^^^^^^^^^land 

Ouzing tha tiaa you waza in Hiaai, did you iiaat any 
zapzasantativas of Cozpozata Aiz Sazvieas? 

A No, all wa did is. wa stoppad off at soaa zastauzant 
flip wa waza talking, as wa aza haza azoond tha tabla, and 
Bill was bzinging out this oontzaot fzoa Cozpozata Aiz 
Sazvieas, and ha said, this is what — you aza wozking as an 



ONEUE'IitD 



95 



KAME- 

1061 
1062 
1063 
106M 
1065 
1066 
1067 
1068 
1069 
1070 
1071 
1072 
1073 
10714 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 

lost 

1085 



ooir 



HIR029000 IJIllflsriwVII' ik*^ pAGE ^7 

indapendant individual. 

All this is is front paparwork> to noxa or less 
concaal you. what you ara doing, as ua ara talking, wa ware 
talking how wa ara going to ba working on this job, bacausa 
nd I wara quita intarastad. 

Ovar tha phona, wa'said what is our job axactly 
going to ba? Wa ara working mora or lass lika wa were 
beiora, ior tha CIA and tha governnant. Wa wantad to nake 
that point quita claar batwaan oursalvas. so wa knaw where 
we stood. 

2 So whan ha said it was front, did you undarstand--who 
did you understand him to mean front for? 

A In other words, it was just a nana on a plaoa of 
paper. 

e Right, okay, did you — so you had a conversation with 
Cooper or conversations with Cooper where he told you you 
were working front for the CIA or for the government? 

A Yes. 

fi Did ha say CIA or government, or did he say both? 

A He didn't, all ha said was mora or less government 
work, and a» before, he didn't ooma out and pinpoint anyone 
«lxaotly. 

fi Okay, did he tell you — what if anything did ha tall 
you about Corporate Air Services? 

A Corpozata Air Services is a contract. Ha put out 



UKCLsSSiHED 



96 



UlilllloifiEO 



KAnE= HIR029000 llllULllUVll >>»*' PAGE U8 



1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
109<( 
1095 
1096 
1097 
1098 
1099 
1 100 
1101 
1 102 
1 103 
1104 
1105 
1 106 
1 107 
1 108 
1109 
1110 



tha sign as this fzont nantt . I an saying iront nana, 
b«oaus« that is tha way j Dan/ and I accaptad it. It was 
soaathing on papaz, a contract saying you aza working for 
pay purposas, atiquatta. out oi Pannsylvania. 

I wantad a copy of this, which I did not racaiva, 
and thara was anothaz copy signad, wa signad with Air 
Amarica and nost govarnnant jobs whara you ara going to 
zaaain silant about this. 

e Okay, did you naat an individual by tha nana of 

fi»»a. / 

Edward Da^Bsr? 

A No, I did not. 

fi Hava you avar haard that naaa? 

A Tha nana X haard coma up baoausa oi all tha 
convarsations . 

fi Okay> so you hava haard tha nana, but you navar mat 
tha parson. 

A Corraot. 

e So ha was navar down, to youz knowladga. ir 



A I navar mat tha parson. 

fi Hhan did you first haar that naaa, aftar your 
a^aata? 

A It was mainly aftar ay ralaasa, yas. 

m. PLEGKX: Tzom things that wara in tha 
nawspapars. 



BNaroifiti) 



97 



1111 

1112 
1113 
1 1 1>( 
111S 

I 1 16 

II 17 
1 1 18 
1119 
1120 
1121 
1 122 
1123 
1 12^ 
1125 
1126 
1127 
1128 
1129 
1130 
1131 
1132 
1133 
113^ 
1135 



HIR029000 



WWoo 




PAGE U9 



that 




BY KR. EG6LEST0N: 

fi During tha tima you wars down i.n| 
was not a ianiliaz nana to you? 

A Mo> It was not. 

S Prior to tha tlaa you actually arrlvad down ln^| 
did Coopar giva you any additional information 
about what axactly it was that you would ba doing? 

A Whan wa talkad in Hiani, ha said yas, wa will ba 
working out of tha air basa| 

ind flying into Kioaragua. 

S Old ha tall you what tha loads wara going to ba? 

A Yas. ha said thara was going to ba small arms and 
ammunitions, a lot of thasa madleal supplias, uniforms. 

fi Did ha tall you thitt you would fly into Nicaragua? 

A Ha said thara is a vary strong possibility wa would 
ba going in and out of Nicaragua many timas . 

2 Did ha tall you about tha axtra pay for going into 
Nicaragua, or was that aftar you arrlvad? 

A Thara hara was told than. 

9 You wara told about tha axtra pay during thasa 
oonvarsatlona ? 
> . I Corraot. 

» _ e During tha tlma you wara In Hlami, whara did you 
stay? 

A Ha stayad at tha Holiday Inn, tha olosast ona to tha 



uNCUosra 



KAHK 
1136 
1137 
1138 
1139 
11X0 

iim 

11U2 
1143 
llUit 
lilts 
11i|6 
1HI7 
11U8 
11149 
1150 
11S1 
1152 
1153 
1154 
1155 
1156 
1157 
1158 
1159 
1160 



MZR029000 



WIASSW 



PAGE 50 



airport, if th«r« is two of than? I think thara is, maybe. 

fi Your notabooK which has now baan nazkad EH-6, saams 
to indicate you for^^^^^^^^^for ^'^^^1 
on July 9 of 1986? 

A Correct, that is the saaa date we left. 

Q How did you get down to^^^^^^^^^^| what airline? 

A 

e 

A 

2 
A 




airline? 



Is that an/ 
Yes. 

Who paid for the hotel while you were in Hiaiii? 
Cooper signed for it all. 
e Do you know who was paying Cooper? 
A I believe, this was all Southern Air Transport 
because they accrued all our tickets, right through Southern 
Air Transport Ticket Agency. 

fi When you got your ticket to fly down to] 
you obtained the tickets from Southern Air Transport? 

A Dottie Bridge takes care of all the ticketing for 
Southern Air Transport. We would get a round-trip ticket 
from niami ^^^^^^^^^^^B round-trip. 

ft They were purchased by Southern Air Transport? 
A Corxeot. it was right on there who bought it. 
4^'. fi Do you recall anything else during your 
conversations with. Cooper prior to the time you went to^H 
Did he tell you, as best you recall right now. 




99 



Hknz 

1161 
1162 
1163 
1 16<4 
1165 
1166 
1 167 
1 168 
1 169 
1 170 
1 171 
1 172 
1 173 
117U 
1 175 
1176 
1177 
1178 
1179 
1 180 
1181 
1 182 
1183 
118>« 
1185 



wi&vm 



HIR029000 a*I -. * VL • kOUII IWV PACK 51 
did ha tall you anything alsa about what you would ba doing. 
who you wara working for, anything lika that? 
k Ho, basically what I alraady outllnad. 
fi This is probably a good tiaa to taka a short braak, 
if you want to gat a drink of watar. I suggast that wa not 
laava tha roon. 

[Racass . ] 
BY HR. E66LEST0N: 
e X just startad to ask you about your arrival in^^H 
^^^^^^H As I indicatad aarliar iroa EH-6, it appaars you 
arrived on July 9, 1986, and it was just you andl 

A Yas, wa arrivad thara. Z iorgat what tima wa got in. 
Excusa ma, but wa wara aat byl 
an ofiicar, an anlistad individual approaohad us whila wa 
wara going through Customs, and ha took our passports, and 
thay ran tham right through and had us jobbad in, and thay 
took our luggaga. 

Thay sort of surprised us a littla bit. 
fi Did you know thair namas? 

A No, I did not know thair naaas . Thay introduced 
thamsalvas briefly, and that day we saw them was the only 
into th 




Hhexe did you fly into? 



y»?wiiSSIFIED 



ij 



100 



KANE: 
1186 
1187 
1188 
1 189 
1190 
1191 
1192 
1 193 
119U 
1 195 
1 196 
1 197 
1198 
1199 
1200 
1201 
1202 
1203 
120t( 
1205 
1206 
1207 
1208 
1209 
1210 



HIR029000 



yfiCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 52 



A Zntc 

fi Oo you know how to spall it? 

A Ho. i iy spalling would pro bably ba cotxact or wrong 
on it. 





turnad into thair military basa than, 
but that is whara wa landad, and wa wara aat byl 

Iwhioh had a coupla small 
military aircraft, flaw us irom^^^^^^H right int< 

fmat by^^^^^^^^^^^Hwithacompany vahicla which 
drova us into^^^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hto a Kousa 
that is whara wa spant our first night. 

fi Lat ma braak a littla of that up. You wara mat by 
thasa officials whan you arrivad. Did you fly in| 
[military airplana? 
A It was a small, forward aircraft control, a small 
spotting aircraft, thara was two aircraft actually. Ihay 
wouldn't carry all thraa of us, and our luggaga. 
S Thosa wara military aircraft? 
A Yas, thay wara. 




DNC'iSSIflED 



101 



KAHX: 

1211 
1212 
1213 
12m 
1215 
1216 
1217 
1218 
1219 
1220 
1221 
1222 
1223 
122X 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123M 
1235 




2 All right, you Indicatad b«ioz* you 
from youz days In Southaast Asia? 
A Cozzact. 
S Did you knoi^^^^^^^Huas going to ba maatlng with 



you? 



Ha wara told sonaona would ba naatlng us. Hha 
Icama out, wa raoognlzad hla, vazy auoh so. 

you know^^^^^mwas down 
Yas, I Knaw. 
Whan you call It Housa Nuabaz 3, what doas that 



S 
A 

e 

aaan? 

A Wall, baioz^^^^land I got thaza, whan this startad 
out savazal months bafoza, tha flzst zasldants thay acczuad 
was eallad Housa Kuabaz 1. Than thay had Jlousa Nuabaz 2, 
and thay naadad ona lazgar and Boza cantzallzad, and thay 
had Housa Nuabaz 3, thay waza zantlng . 

ft Thasa waza locations whaza tha paopla who wozkad on 
MM opazatlon llvad? 

A Yas, stayad. 

ft Row iaz waza thay izoi 

A It was a faw alias, all tha way aozoss town, a 20- 



UNCLASSIFIED 



102 



MAKE: 
1236 
1237 
1238 
1239 
121*0 
12U1 
12<42 
12U3 
12(4 <4 
12145 
12>46 
12147 
12(48 
12^9 
1250 
1251 
1252 
1253 
125U 
1255 
1256 
1257 
1258 
1259 
1260 



HIR029000 



soBtt-ninutA r 



iiimim 



PAGE 



5(4 



fi So you spent tha first night in Housa Nuabar 3? 
A Coxxact. 

S How many paopla wara in Housa Hunber 3? 
A It Mas approximataly — only about thraa paopla whan wa 
got in thara. 




working, ox was it ona ooxnax? 

A Cantralizad, right in tha cantar oi tha taxiways. 
Thaza was a plaoa whara a waxahousa was built, actually two 
4|p*housas. Ona was a aatal waxahousa that was built, and 
4lk vas thaxa prior to ma gattlng thara. It was iull of 
thasa supplias. and thara was anothar addition put on to it 
which balongad to Coxpozata Air Sarvicas which was a 



iJNCUSSIflEB 



103 



tiilClASSIHED 



Hint HIR029000 V »■ Vfct ■***»■■■ "^ PAGE 55 

1261 uaiahousa foz all aizczaft supplias and parsonal aifacts 

1262 that you nasdad foz flying. 

1263 fi You maan pozsonal supplias or tha supplias that you 
126>« would ba transporting? 

1265 A Ona was a block warahousa. Tha othar ona was a 

1266 matal ona. Tha natal was your contra, thair warahousa. air 

1267 dalivarias, supplias, small ams, amnunitlon, uniforms and 

1268 whatavar madical supplias that waza availabla. Anything it 

1269 took to suppozt this group. 

1270 fi Tha contras? 

1271 A Corract. 

1272 fi Thara was a diffarant location? 

1273 A Adjoining right to it, it was attachad zight to it, 
127<4 a block building which was' finishad whila I was thara, a 

1275 warahousa for maintananoa, a llttla of flea to put our 

1276 parsonal affacts for flying. 

1277 This was locatad right or 

1278 fi In tha military saotion? 

1279 A Cozzaot. 

1280 fi Hhan you azzivad, how many alzplanas did Cozpozata 

1281 Aiz Sazvioas hava? 

1282 I Hhan Z azzivad thaza, thaza was only thzaa aizczaft 

1283 ^Bit was thaza. Ona was a AUulA which is a small littla 
128>t fouz-plaoa aizczaft mada in tha Statas .', Thaza was two 
1285 Cazlbous. ^ 



liiSL*"' 



104 



liiaHobiHtB 



KAME: HIR029000 Ul lUkHU WT* •»•■' picE 56 

fi Did tha mauJe/ I guass it is not sultabla fox 



1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
129U 
1295 
1296 
1297 
1298 
1299 
1300 



txuispoxtatlon? 

A Kot nada foz cargo oz anything. Ha usa It ioz 
planing parsonnal back and iotth. 

2 Tha two Caribous? 

A Corract. 

fi Any C-12 3S at that tlna? 

Ho, tha C-123S that X Hhan^^^^^^^Hand I 
wara going back to Hla^l.^^^^and Z wara takan out to 
Southarn Air Transport: and Ullllan wantad to show us tha C- 
123 that was thara and that was actually a Charlla-825. 

S That was tha raglstration? 

A Ko> a nuBbar glvan by Corporata Air Sarvleas. For 
that ona> wa had flva aircraft down, so It want froa Charlla- 
821 all tha way down to Charlla-825. 



mimm 



105 



KAHE: 

1301 
1302 
1303 
130U 
1305 
1306 
1307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
131 1 
1312 
1313 
131X 
1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1319 
1320 
1321 
1322 
1323 
132U 
1325 



HIR029000 



DCHN STEVENS 



i'tUSSlfifO 



PAGE 57 



S Can you natch up for us tha nunbAx with th« 
alzctait? 

A y«s . I can. The Maul£ being a small, fgabzlc- 
covered aizcrait, Charlia 82 1 and tha two Caribous wara 
Charlia 822, and Chazlia 823. Tha two 123s waza Charlia 82U 
and Charlia 825. Corraspondlng nunbars wara put on tha 
aircraft Bora towards tha nosa, singla digit, ona through 5. 

2 Thay corraspondad to tha numbar at tha and? 

A Ona digit was paintad towards tha nosa of tha 
aircraft . 

8 Hhan you arrivad, thay had th* Haul&and tha two 
Caribous? 

A Corzact. 

8 How Bueh aftar you arrivad did tha 123 that you had 
saan in Miasi show up? 

A I forgat tha axact — probably a coupla waaks latar 



on. 



mmmX. 



8 Hhan you arrivad than> Coopar was not thara? 
A In] 
8 Yas. 

No. Ha was not in^^^^^^^^V Ha in 

8 Row long aftar you azzivad did Coopar cona down? 
A It was a ooupla waaks lataz on. 



HNPiSSIRED 



106 



NAHE: 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
133it 
133S 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13X0 
13tt1 
13>i2 
13113 
13»l| 
1345 
13146 
13i*7 
13148 
13>49 
13S0 



KIR029000 



UNCUSHD 



P&GK 58 



. S Old ha bring tha C-123 down? 

I I ball«va so, yas . 

S Okay. Z know a c-123 is an old plana but tha ona 
In niaai/ was that nawly acqulzad? 

A This was tha ona that thay altaady had acqulzad 
whan I was hlzad> yas . This was tha ilrst ona that thay 
had. It was In thaza bacausa thay had to zapalr ona of the 
jats was tozn up. 

S At tha tliia you wara hlzad> thaza waza iouz? 

A Fouz alzczait. 

fi But tha C-123 was not dowr 

A It was In malntananca In Southazn Alz Transpozt in 

e Whan did thay aoqiilza tha ilfth ona? 
A It pzobably was acqulzad In August oz tha lataz 
pazt oi July. I iozgat axactly whan. 



nianl. 



Hhaza did that oona izoa? 

It was bought aayba out of Taxas oz soaaplaea. 
Did ona of youz aambazs go up to gat it? 
Xas. ^^^^^^^^^^H Tha oopilot,^^^^^^^^^^^^^! 
laight hava baan in with that. Who alsa was 
iMMlvad? Thay waza going back and fozth izoa-^^^^^^was 
ray, also^^^^^^^^^^^H 

Batwaan^^^^^^^Hand tha 
A To Hlaal. yas. 




ONCliSSSIFIED 



107 



NiHE: 
1351 
1352 
1353 
135U 
1355 
1356 
1357 
1358 
1359 
1360 
1361 
1362 
1363 
136<4 
1365 
1366 
1367 
1368 
1369 
1370 
1371 
1372 
1373 
137«l 
1375 



UNClliSSIHED 



HIR029000 llllIlL rlUlJll IkV ^^'^^ ^' 

8 During tha p*xlod of tin* whan tha tin* you atzlvad 
and Hhan Coop«r comas back, who is opazatlonally 
zasponslbla? 

^^^^H^^^^^^was in eonitand. 

Q Undaz Coop«z? 

A Coopaz. 

fi During that tina'^^^^^^^Hwas in conmand? 

A Yas. 

S Okay. ^^^^^^Hwas also ona of tha pilots. 

A Corract. 

2 Coopaz was a pilot? 

A Corract. 

S Lat aa just ask you to dascrlba just brlaily tha 
thraa housas . Did you stay in all thraa or only ona of tha 
housas? 

A I only livad in housa nuabar ona. and that was for 
a short pariod of tina all tha way through July. Aftar 
that, wa wara aovad, Coopaz novad us tol 

Ln which, lat's saa, in tha aiddla of August 
soaatiaa, I forgat aKaotly. In ay passbook thara is 
probably a chop data in thara whan I laf t^^^^^^^^^J and 
•iBA back hoaa for two waaks, and I turnad Saptaabar 8 in 
H^h wa wara to^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bwhich was across tha 
stzaat, a llttla bit aora aoonoaioal and that was basically 
whara wa wara kapt. 



lISClASSinEO 



108 



1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
13814 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
1394 
1395 
1396 
1397 
1398 
1399 

moo 



UNCUSSIfiEO 



HIX029000 llEVIfi mJUII IbW PAGE 60 

S 09 you xttoall tha addrass of tha housa Mhaxa you 
stayad fox a coupla of waaks? 

k NO/ I don't. I hava tha addxass of housa nuabax 
thzaa, and that Is it. 

2 You Indlcatad you spant tha flxst night at housa 
number threa; coxxaot? 

A Coxxact. 

2 Thaxaaftax you did not spand any moxa tiaa in housa 
numbax thxaa? 

A No, just visiting. 

2 Bad quastion. Thaxaaftax, you didn't stay any 
longar at housa ntinbax thxaa? 

A Ko, I did not. 

2 If you could spall that? 

A 

2 Do you spaak Spanish? 

A No, I don't, a littla "Taxzan", that is about it. 



2 Did thay hava talaphonas at that housa? 

A Yas. 

2 Do you know tha talaphona nuabax? 

A Yas. talaphona nuabax was^^^^^^^B housa nuabax 



2 Housas nuabaxs ona and two, Maxa you at thosa 
housas? 



DNCUSSinEO 



109 



1U01 
11102 
1403 
lUOU 

mos 

11406 
1U07 

mo8 
mo9 
imo 

1<41 1 
1112 
11(13 
lUlU 

mis 

11(16 

11417 
11418 
11419 
1U20 
11421 
11422 
1*423 
114214 
11425 



iiNtwssro ... 



HIR029000 IllVlil HlltJII IkV PAGE 61 

A I lived at housa nunbet on«> but I foxgat tha phone 
nuabar for it. I had it written down but this was 
ooniiscatad from me on a small piece oi paper. 

2 How about house number two? 

A House number two, the mechanics stayed at. 

2 Where did Cooper stay? 

A In house number three. Host oi the pilots stayed 
in housa number three. 

2 Did most of the — wall/ let ma ask it this way. What 
was your title down there? 

A Air freight specialist. 

2 Did most of tha air freight specialists stay in 
housa number--! have lost track. 

Ue infj^H^^^^m^mainly . He 
stayed at house number one, and then at this other hotel and 
then^^^^ 

2 You don't recall tha phone number of house number 
two? 

A No. I don't. 

2 Mould you generally desoriba what tha sat up was? 
You have indicated Cooper was in charge an^^^^^^^Hwas his 

M[ -* during that period oi time. How many flyers, 

flj^atananca man approximately? 

A Okay. Tha flyers, there was — 

2 Gat Into people, li you have got them down on the 



DNCIASSIFIEO 



no 



Kxnz- 
m26 
m27 

11428 
11429 
1(430 
m31 
1U32 
1>433 
143(4 
1(435 
1(436 
1(437 
1438 
1(439 
1(4(40 
1(4(41 

mi42 

1(4(43 

1(4(4(4 

lUMS 
1(4(46 

inn? 

1(4(48 
1(4(49 

1US0 



HZR029000 



mussife 



PAGZ 62 



list, giva us tha namas o£ tha paopla. 

A Okay. Pilots would ba Bill Coopat who was in 
ohaxga , ^^^^^^^^^^^ 

Ilka 





Thasa waza all tha pilots. 

e Hara thay substantially thaza throughout tha tine 
you wara thaza? 

No. ^^mi^^H and^^^^^l^^^cama, 
zight in Saptaiibaz 7 oz Saptaiibaz 8 is thaiz data of hiza . 
[was right az ound up in tha za also. 
Data f or^^^^^^^^^H Z 
in August. I oould ba corractad on any o£ thasa. 

[was in tha lattaz part of July. ^^^^^^^^^^^H he 
was there, oi couzsa. and^^^^^^^Bwas thaza all the time 
be£oze> as £az as pilots go. Theza was anothaz guy sort oi 
like an aiz freight specialist there. | 

e 

A Cozzaot. ^^^^^H Ha was also thaze and anothaz 
individual by tha naaa 

fi Thay had siailaz jobs to youzs? 

A ^^^^^^^^^^H was a pilot. ^^^^^^mH was a 
zagular and also an aiz fzaight specialist. 

Zhasa paopla wara aithaz leaving tha job oz being 





Ill 



Hint- 

msi 

1i»52 

11(53 
1U514 
1U5S 
11456 
1457 
1>458 
1459 
1(460 
1>461 
1il62 
m63 
m6(4 
1(465 
11466 
11467 
1<468 
1t469 
11470 
11471 
m72 
11473 
1«47I4 
11475 



HIR029000 



yi^CliSSIFIED 



PA6Z 63 





tarainatad. Thara was othax pilots thata bafota na . I 
don't know who thasa paopla wara; and than as far as tha air 
ixalght spacialists, thara was mysalfi 



Hachanlcs, a haad machanic .^^^^^^ 

ira was a 
nachanic's halpar thara by tha nana oil 
Thara was two^^^^^^^H machanlcs ,1 

I don't know what tha othaz ona's naaa was. Ha 
was a pratty qulat Individual thara. 

e Hara any oi tha aaehanlos aaployad by Southarn Air 
Transport? 

A ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^wara by 

Southarn Air Transport, vaty auch so. 

e Did you racalva docuaantation whan you arrivad on 
tha job. Idantlty cards or anything Ilka that? 

A Aitar wa wara thara aayba for a llttla ovar a waak. 
wa wara takan Into^^^^^^^^^and thay Issuad us thasa 
idantiiicatlon cards, yas . 

fi Lat aa, just so Z hava a sansa of what this was 
Ilka, during tha ooursa of tha tlaa you wara thara, July, 
Mflwst, Saptaabar and than obviously vary aarly into 
•Mebaz, during tha coursa of thosa thraa aonths, how aany 
total flights wara you on, not suoeassful flights but how 
aany total flights wara you on? 




»r^bL 



112 



MAKE: 

1i|76 
1U77 
1U78 
H479 

mso 

11(81 

msz 

11(83 
1i(8(( 
1>(8S 
11(86 
11(87 
1488 
1489 
1490 
11(91 
1K92 
1493 
1494 
1495 
1496 
1497 
1498 
1499 
1500 



HIR029000 



iicussm „ 



GK 64 



Hz. PLEGZRi Including Kleazagua oz only Nicazagua? 
BY HR. EGGLESIOM: 

e Total. 

A Thzoughout Cantzal Amazlca, 30, pzobably 40 
flights. 

8 Oi thos«> and how many o£ than did you succassiulXy 
zalaasa youz cazgo? 

A Thaza was, out of aiz dallvaz) 

thaza Mas pzobably about fouz aiz dzops. 

2 Fouzl 

A Cozzaet, all tha zast waza point-to-point placas . 
You go thaza and land Ilka ^^^^^^^^H y*^ So in and laava 
youz cazgo out. 

e How many total aiz dalivazy flights Naza you on? 

A Hayba azound 14. 

fi Of thosa, how many waza succassful? 

A Thay waza all succassful. 

fi You did not hava occasions uhaza you flaw and — 

A Cantral Amazica wa aza talking about, bacausa wa 
aiz dzops, wa aiz dzops^^^^^^^^^^^^^B bacausa 
somatimas whan it was zaining so bad, wa would aiz dzop into 
f|pB. Tha only othaz placa thaza was aiz dzops nationally 
jjp In Mloazagua. 

you fly into^^^^^^Has 

A I did not, mysalf . Ha flaw ovaz^^^^^^^^H yas . 



m,mm 



113 



NAME: 

1501 
1502 
1503 
15014 
1505 
1506 
1507 
1508 
1509 
1510 
151 1 
1512 
1513 
151*( 
1515 
1516 
1517 
1518 
1519 
1520 
1521 
1522 
1523 
152i( 
1525 



HUtWSSW 



HIR029000 

e And than into Nicaragua? 



PAGE 65 



A Corzact. 

fi I an gatting pzatty elosa to whara I bring out my 



■tap. 



MR. PLE6ER: By way of axplanatlon. you said 30 to 
>40 flights, you thought, of which 14 involvad aiz dalivaries 
is my undazstanding? 

THE HXTKESS: Cozzaot. last hop, that is a 
you fly f zom^^^^^^^W.nto^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bthat a 
flight, food oz madical supplias. Thasa othar plaeas wara 
all flights. 

tlR. PLEGER: Of tha zamaining 30, 16 uaza point-to- 
point? 

THE WITNESS! It' oould ba moza . Thay waza all 
point-to-point, all tha zast of thaa. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
e Tha onas you just zafazzad to as tha agzicultuza 
flights, at oataza, agzloultuza, aza thosa within tha 30? 
A Yas. 

9 How many flights, how many tiaas did you fly into 
Kloazagua? 

I Tan flights into Nioazagua. 
j^ fi Doas that inoluda tha ona on Octobaz 5th? 
A Cozzaot. 
fi Uhila wa aza at it, X hava a aap haza whioh is 




n 



'•J»L 



114 



KAHE: HIR029000 



UNCUSHD 



PAGE 66 



1526 
1527 
1528 
1529 
1530 
1531 
1532 
1533 
15314 
1535 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
15U0 
1541 
15U2 
15>43 
151414 
15145 
15146 
15147 
15(48 
15«49 
1550 



soaawhat latga. Hould you mark this as Exhibit EH 7? 

[Hhaxaupon, th« docuscnt xaiaxxad to was maxkad fox 
idantiiication as Exhibit EM 7 . 1 
BY m. EGGLESTON: 

2 What I an going to do is put this down in fxont of 
you> and I an going to coma axound and stand naxt to you, 
and lat ma just, baioxa wa pxocaad, lat ma tall you that I 
want to do this in a way that tha couxt xapoxtaxs can recoxd 
something othax than ''thasa, thaxas and thosa ' ' . As you 
point out things, I will do my bast to dascxiba what you axa 
doing in an oxal fashion, so tha couxt xapoxtax knows what 
thay axa pointing to. 

nayba if you could staxt by showing us how fax 
outsida — so^^^^^^His' ir^^^^^^^^^^V xight? 
Yas,|^^^^^^His in 

e Thaxa is a location which is, so I gat tha basics 
haxa, thaxa is a location xafaxxad to fxaquantly as tha 
faxm? 

A Yas. That was^^^^^^^Hand that sits xight up 
this axaa. 

fi An axaa just on tha amp haxa noxth of a location 
^^llatl^^^^^^B up in this 
^ A Kight up in haxa. 

That was tha faxm? 

A ^^^^^^Hwas tha nama of tha plaoa, and it was 



yNfAsssiriFo 



115 



NAME: 

1551 
1552 
1553 
155t4 
1555 
1556 
1557 
1558 
1559 
1560 
1561 
1562 
1563 
1564 
1565 
1566 
1567 
1568 
1569 
1570 
1571 
1572 
1573 
157«l 
1575 



HXR02 



,. iimsssw 



PAGE 67 



it sits up in this 



x«f«rrttd to as th* iaxn. 
gsnazal azaa right up haza . 

fi I will put anflf^^on tha nap. 

A It is naar hara. 

e Thaza is also a location callad tha plantation? 

A Tha plantation wa hava to coma down into Costa 
Rica. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 right up 

C Kot far from a placa-- 

A I as sorx) 




lara was a flat spot in 
thara whara thara was an air strip, ior our banafit callad 
tha plantation. 

S This is naar a plkea calladi 
If I wara to put a^^^^^fright hara? 

A Sura . 

Q That would ba about aecurata? 

A Yas. 

fi So lat na just ask you soma ganazal datalls about 
tha flights that you took. Hhan you first arrlvad, I taka 
it you flaw tha Caribous? 

A Cozzaot. 

fi Old you ganazally fly to tha Sana placa with tha 
Cazlbous? 

A Ha taka off out of^^^^^^^H and ouz flight plan 



IINriASSiFlfO 



116 



NAHZ: 

1576 
15771 
1578* 
1579 
1580 
1581 
1582 
1583 
1581* 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 
1591 
1592 
1593 
159M 
1595 
1596 
1597 
1598 
1599 
1600 



UiiCLASSiFIED 



HIR029000 
would taka us diract to — right Intol 



PACK 68 




S I Hill gat bacK'latax to what you loadad and 
unloadad> so thasa wara what you call point-to-points . 
unless tha waathar was tarxibla or sonathlng alsa? 

A Yas. you navar raally flaw anything out oil 
Into^^^^^^^H It was basically In tha baginnlng in thasa 
flights in tha Carabou, wa taka off> stay down for a waak, 
go on Monday, stay down for four or flva days, and whatavar 
tha contra taam daslgnatad to us whara to carry, whara wa 
wara going to go int&^^^^^^H up in this ganaral araa hara 
somaplaca, wa fly back and forth hara. Thara was anothar 
placa callad^^^^^^^^^right up in hara sonaplaca. 

e I understand tha locations I an putting on this map 
ara ganaral, and thay aay ba wrong by soaa distances or 
wl^atavar? 

A Correct. 

S Z will put a^^^^Hon the location and what is tha 
kz location? 

A There is a place up in hare celiac 

e Z will put a^^^^B about here. 

A That is pretty close generally. 



li 



'N5US'«^ 



117 



NAnE = 
1601 
1602 
1603 
160(4 
1605 
1606 
1607 
1608 
1609 
1610 
1611 
1612 
1613 
161(4 
1615 
1616 
1617 
1618 
1619 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
162(4 
1625 



BSASSW 




HIR029000 v^-""' PAGE 69 

e Particularly during tha aarly part you would ily 

A And work out of^^^^^^^V Wa wouldn't taka stuff 
out of thara. 

Q You would not? 

A Ko. 

2 During tha ooursa of tha waaK from tha farn, you 
would maka tha flights tc 

A Corract. Thasa wara all point-to-point axcapt for 
now and than. If thara was a haavy rain stom. you would 
air drop Into thasa plaoas. and thasa othar flights that 
cana Into Nicaragua, dropping to tha FDN taaiis, wa flaw up 
hara, coaa down^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H as down up In 

2 Again, so I can do It, you would fly out of tha 
farm and fly ovar to? 

A ^^^^^^^^H This flight pattarn would vary vary much. 
You didn't want to 

You fly basically ^^I^^^^^^^^^^^Vhara and cut 
across . 

2 Okay. And turn south, aast o^^^^^^^^^Hand down 
Into Nicaragua? 

A Yaai 




Thasa flight pattarns would vary all tha tlma from flight to 
flight. 



\mm\m 



118 



1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 
1633 
163U 
1635 
1636 
1637 
1638 
1639 
161(0 
16m 
16142 
16M3 
16i4U 
16il5 
16*46 
1647 
16>48 
1649 
1650 



uiicussm .... 



HZK029000 UllUL.ntJll'll ll_IJ PAGE 70 

2 Uh«n you did this, you waxa basically ilying tha 
Caribou? 

A Anything supporting tha FDN taaiis in noxthaxn 
Kloazagua was always dona by Caribou. It didn't carry as 
much as a 123 but it is distanca. Thay could traval without 
raiualing and all of that. Tha Caribou could coiia in 
elosar. play closar ganas. 

fi Tha C-123S. was thara a diiiazant flight pattern 
you would fly? 

A Tha C-123S wara basically to fly froil 
come out^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f ly 

fi That would be along] 

A Correct. He would coae out to this cheokpoini 
there is a' checkpoint out here 
radio, of course, fly in, come over this, there isl 

here, come up generally, right up around in 

here. 

9 You indicated you would fly along the Nlcazaguan 
border south to near tha plantation. 

A Cozreot. 

ft Turn east and fly over the plantation and continue 

rinto? 
A All the way, it would be right up in this general 
area here. 

ft Indicating on tha map in the vicinity of a location 




A«!' 



119 



NAME: 

1651 
1652 
1653 
165U 
16SS 
1656 
1657 
1658 
1659 
1660 
1661 
1662 
1663 
166M 
1665 
1666 
1667 
1668 
1669 
1670 
1671 
1672 
1673 
167U 
1675 



HIR029000 



\mi\m 





PAGE 71 
callad^H^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H Hould thasa go 
Kioazagua? 

A Ytts> that was our flight patt«zn. Com* across 
har*, and than haad north into nalnly right up into this 
area Thara is^^^^^^^^^^^Hanother 

tin this araa hara. In othar words, a C-123 with 
its fual capacity with a pila on tanks could fly from! 
lall tha way down hara, fight a llttla bit of 
waathar, spand a coupla hours if it had to, still hava 
anough fual to coma all tha way back, whara a Caribou 
couldn't do that. 

fi Tha araa whara you indicatad whara tha drops took 
placa was ganarallyj 

A 

If I had a daeant map hara, if wa had a flight 
plan, 50-thousandths to 125 thousandths of that araa. I 
could pinpoint a lot of thasa points right down to vary 
closa eoordinatas. 

ft How many flights did you maka with tha C-123s? 

A Six. 

fi All Six want into Nicaragua? 

A Thasa wara fix flights I actually panatratad 
maazagua. Thara was othaz flights I mada. You gat so far 
up in hara, and you run into so much waathar. you would hava 
to coma back. 




SCWSSiflfO 



120 



NAHK: 

1676 
1677 
1678 
1679 
1680 
1681 
1682 
1683 
168M 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
1694 
1695 
1696 



UNCUSSinED 



HIX029000 llili.l U.l.lll II M PAGE 72 

e You sad* drops on 60 occasions with th« C-123s? 

A y«s> H« aada actual drops. Excusa aa, ona v» 
panatratad Klcaragua and run into so auch wkathar and wa 
could not ilnd an axact taaa sita; and wa raturnad with a 
load. 

2 I aa racing way ahaad; but slnca I hava tha aap 
down, why don't wa covar tha flight oi Octobar 5th, that was 
in a C-123? 

A Corract. I want to raitarata soaathing hara. This 
ilight that happanad Octobar 5th was a rabound froa Octobar 
3rd, 2nd or 3rd, X iorgat aMactly whan wa lai-l 
and want into^^^^^^^H wa wara supposad to work out oi 
thara, thay wara- waiting for thair aain fDK CcLj^ndanta> 
Coi^ndanta Baraudaz, avarythlng changad hands thara rathar 
quick. I was thara. I aa trying to think oi tha axact crew 
who was thara . ^^^^^^^^^^^H and I baliava it was, trying to 
think who tha captain was, but it aakas no diiiaranca, 
Coopar caaa in with anothar Caribou and thay had a littla 
pow-wow thara a^^^^^^^^Hand thay switchad things around 
whara Baraudas said this taaa, which is right up in hara 
anyway . 



Kmim 



121 



NAHC: 

1697 
1698 
1699 
1700 
1701 
1702 
1703 
170U 
1705 
1706 
1707 
1708 
1709 
1710 
171 1 
1712 
1713 
171t4 
1715 
1716 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 



HIR029000 
RPTS BOYUK 
DCHX SPRADLING 
( 11i30 a.m. I 



"^■'^^SlFiiD 



PAGE 73 



Q Just SO M* can maka sans* of It, it Is — 

A It is up in haza. Kara was^^^m^^l right hata. 
Ha waza back up in hara. 

e It was 

A Yas. 

e That is whaza thay waza shot down. 

Ha waza^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hwhan wa 
got shot down. Hhat happanad was whan wa waza ^"^^^^^^^^1 
ail of a suddan tha PON that was usually up in haza, thay 
had this taaii — 

S By ** up in haza'* you zaiar to tha azaa oi nozthezn 
Kicazagua? 

A Yas. To fuzthaz aMplain this, lat's sozt of cut 
this map in half. Up Kaza was usually youz PDN. 

e Up haza maaning tha nozth. 

A Nozthazn pazt of Nioazagua. Tha southazn pazt was 
tha UNO. Tha UNO taam was mainly suppliad out o 

out o^^^^^^^^B that wazahousa that was thaza. 
PDN taam, balng suppoztad out of^^^^^^^Btha contra 
basa. 

Now, all of a suddan, it was funny bacausa thay, this taam 




y'"!Ao3iFI[B 



122 



NAHK: 
1722 
1723 
172U 
1725 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
173U 
1735 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 
17^0 
17M1 
171*2 
171*3 
171*1* 
171*5 
17M6 



)29ooo uiiliLnu 



HIR029000 VliVkll^'^'" itev pj^Qj 71, 
was way down In southern Nicaragua and It had to ba 
suypoxtad. Uomunaz nada It elaax> thay had two taaas. ii 
thay didn't gat suppoxtad, thay would losa thaa. 

ft You axa xaiaxxing to an FDN taaa down thaxa. 

A Down thaxa >| 

S In tha axaa whaxa you waxa shot down> was it 
naax--was it naax tha vicinity oi tha xivax haxa, Rio Tune? 

A It would ba naax thaxa, yas. 

e It — okay. ^ 

A It was sonawhaxa up in thaxa. 

2 I think wa axa dona with tha aap . 

A To finish this stoxy, thasa Caxibous that waxa haxa 
loadad TON aataxial. small axas and ammunition and thasa 
xiilas, and waxa ilown into^^^^^^^Hto txansiax bacausa a — 

e Thay waxa thrown intol 

A Yas. fxom^^^^^^HS Tha xaason baing tha aixcxait, 
Caxibous that waxa haxa could not, it wouldn't aaka sansa to 
txy to fly all tha way down haxa and txy to gat all tha way 
back. Thaxa wouldn't ba anough iual. 

ft By haxa again, you xaiax to tha — 

A To tha flight. 

S rxo^^^^^^^Ball tha way down south. 
4^ A Thay would hava to fly haxa, fly all tha way south 
hara and maka tha dxop and fly bac) 

nd xatuxn back up to thaxa ox txy and 




L'.'!OliSSSIFIEO 



123 



NAMK: 
17147 
17U8 
1749 
1750 
1751 
1752 
1753 
175U 
17SS 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
1761 
1762 
1763 
176U 
1765 
1766 
1767 
1768 
1769 
1770 
1771 



HZR029000 



ONGUSSIHED 



PACK 75 



eoita back and go around or lan^ 



Q Did you avar land at tha plantation? 
A No, I didn't. 

Q Was thara a — did othars to your knowladga land at 
tha plantation? 
A Yas. 

5 What was tha purposa of landing at tha plantation? 
A Tha plantation was going to ba turnad into another 

sita for tha UNO taams in tha south just as^^^^^^^Buas for 
tha FDN taans in tha north. In othar words, you wouldn't 
hava to hava this warahousa sitting Mg hara a1 
avarything could ba sitting right down hara with an airstrip 
that is vary closa to y.sur' targats . 

fi Was that avar actually sat up? 

A Tha airstrip was thara and thay wara starting to 
build lika a small littla, what would you say, a casa, a 
housa for avarybody to stay in and a small naintananca 
quartars . 

6 But I taka it it was not oomplatad by tha tiiia tha 
oparation was — 

A No, it was abandonad raally baoausa thay had a C- 
||||> in fact it was tha sama ona that Charlia 825 landad 
thara, and it just sunk out of sight, want right into tha 
Bud baoausa thara is a stzaaa that runs undar tha runway and 



UNCmSSIHED 



124 



NAftK 

1772 
1773 
177H 
1775 
1776 
Mil 
1778 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
1784 
1785 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
1791 
1792 
1793 
179M 
1795 
1796 



XIR029000 



UNaASSIFIED 



PAGE 76 



in thtt zainy season it is so uat thara it is not iaasibla to 
uaa it. 

S Thank you. 

A X just wantad to clarify somathing on that taaii, 
naybe X don't hava to bring it up, but it is thara that this 
last mission was changad all around so quickly. Xt was 
supposed to ba a Caribou mainly to tha FDK t« 




whan Barmudez 

cana in thaza that day, thara was Coopar, Ramon was along, X 
was thara, ^^^^^^^^^^^kas 't'>*'*^^^^||||^^^^^^H "as 
thara, and thay had this change because Womunez being the 
biggest commander around switched it around saying thay 
needed it out oi there. 

So this was all transferred, seeing that the Caribous weza 
there right away, okay, we will load them up and take this 
right into^^^^^^^Bthat day, which was tha third, October 3 
when this took place. And then October Uth the Caribous 
went again because they could oazzy 5000 pounds, so the 
iirst day they brought back 10,000 pounds of material. This 
was loaded aboard the C-123. 
V. e Hhat kind oi material was that? 

<^ A This was your small arms, the exact load we were 
ihet down with. The fourth of these aizezaft went down and 
loaded up again with another 10,000 pounds. He were 



UNCUSSIRED 



125 



KAHE: 

1797 

1798 

1799 

1800 

1801 

1802 

1803 

180t4 

1805 

1806 

1807 

1808 

1809 

1810 

1811 

1812 

181 

181t4 

1815 

1816 

1817 

1818 

1819 

1820 

1821 



HIS029000 



yiUSSlTIB 



PAGE 



77 



supposad to hava » sacond txip to this san* — wall another DZ 
that was vary closa. 

e Hon much walght can tha C-123 carry? 

A It could carry — what wa wara carrying, put it this 
way, was 10,000 pounds bacausa wa had to max out in fuel. 
In othar words, wa can carry somatimas m or IS thousand 
pounds dapanding on what you ara doing, dapanding on how 
much iual you hava to hava and basidas tha airstrip, 
alavation, atiquatta going into tha placa . 

e Tha arms that wara transportad by tha various 
diffarant cargo planas, wara thay primarily shippad first 
inte^^^ 

A Hhan I cama into^^^^^^^^^Kln July,. July 9th, wa 
didn't go out to tha air b4sa, it was probably a coupla days 
latar on. Ha wara shown^^^^^^H air basa whara tha 
a ircr aft wara parkad and this warahousi 

Tha warahousa was full alraady. Thay had rigging 
thara, paraohutas thara, thay had all tha madioal supplies, 
all your uniform and wab gaar and all tha small arms 
ammunition. It was already thara with three or four contra 
individuals who stayed there which were riggers and radio 
caters and one coordinator! 




fi Has it ever resupplled during the period of time 
you were there? 



m^mm 



126 



"SinEO 



NAME: HIR029000 U> 7 i '> °w '"^ 001 1 I LU ^'^^^ 



78 



1822 
1823 
182« 
1825 
1826 
1827 
1828 
1829 
1830 
1831 
1832 
1833 
183t4 
1835 
1836 
1837 
1838 
1839 
18>40 
1841 
18>t2 
1843 
1844 
1845 
1846 



A No. it was not. 

fi Could you tell by looking at tha matazial where the 
■atazial had cone fzon? 

A A lot of it was all U.S. matazial except there was 
a couple agent K-21 nachine guns encased there. 

fi Who nakes those? 

A That is a European-made weapon. And ammunition for 
them which is the 7.62 by 55 which is all ammunition for all 
your agent Ks which the contra use quite a bit besides your 
7.62 mm for your AK. 

2 How did you Know the other material was from the 
United States? 

A It was all marked, standard U.S. military issue'. 

fi And what material' is it that you are describing 
that was military issue equipment? 

A This was all your 60 mm mortar and hand grenades. 

fi Here they in boxes? 

A Correct, military crates, standard box that they 
are shipped in. 

fi Anything else that you recall? 

A It was mainly just mortars, small arms, I mean the 
W SBBunitlon, there are two different calibers of AK 
Mkiunition. 

fi Let ma stop you, I got imprecise on you. Was there 
anything also you could tell by looking at it that it was 



UNCUSSIFIED 



127 



UNCIASSIFIED 



KAHE: MIR029000 |||ll|i; Malilll ||_IJ PAGE 79 



18i«7 
18U8 
18U9 
1850 
1851 
1852 
1853 
185(4 
1855 
1856 
1857 
1858 
1859 
1860 
1861 
1862 
1863 
186>4 
1865 
1866 
1867 
1868 
1869 
1870 
187 1 



Unitad Statas natarlal othar than tha noztais and hand 
gzanadas? 

i That and tha pazachutas and wabblng was all 
Aaazloan. 

2 Hhat Is wabblng? 

A All tha A7A slings, thasa aza slings for rigging 
small bundlas and tha parachutas. 

2 And tha pazachutas waza stanpad In soma fashion 
that you could tall thay waza Unltad Statas? 

A Thay waza all U.S.. yas . 

2 Anything alsa that you zacall? 

A Ko. no. 

2 How about tha aadioal supplias. tha boots, tha ' 
uniiozms? 

A Hhan wa gat back to U.S. supplias. I stand 
corractad. thay waza — all tha uniiozas ua did waza all U.S. 
nanuiactuza. all tha boots waza U.S. sanuiactuza that Maza 
in^^^^^^^Hitsali . 

2 Can you tall by looking at — you would hava to pazdon 
ay lack of knoNladga about hoM tha allitazy wozks — can you 
tall by looking at tha ozata that tha gzanada oaaa In. can 

t«ll> ioz axaapla. tha gzanadas — oan you tall what bzanch 
mllltazy thay oaaa izoa? 

A No, no. thaza is no suoh thing. It is just a 
standazd govaznaant oontzaot I laagina. whioh aaoh ona is 



f:- 



iimmiB 



128 



mui&M 



NAME: HIR029000 UMUwrW^' ■'" '-"'' p»GK 80 



1872 
1873 
187<« 
1875 
1876 
1877 
1878 
1879 
1880 
1881 
1882 
1883 
188K 
1885 
1886 
1887 
1888 
1889 
1890 
1891 
1892 
1893 
189U 
1895 
1896 



mada up for in lot nuabaxs. 

S But thaza wara lot nuabazs on tha sidas. and tha 
whola thing? 

A Yas. Cozzact. 

Q But that was not zasuppliad during tha pariod oi 
tina that you waza thara . 

A No> nothing was rasuppliad. Along tha Una of 
Saptanbar what wa did wa^^^^^^^Hitsalf > tha UNO gzoup--wa 
wara running short of parachutas bacausa this larga influx 
whan wa wara dropping to tha south to tha UNO taaas, wa wara 
running out. So what thay did, wa flaw aayba 20 or 30 
thousand pounds of lika thasa hand granadas and aortar 
rounds and actually bartarad or tzadad al^^^^^^^Hwith tha 
UNO taaas foz pazachutas which thay had and brought thaa 
back and this was a scratch ay back or trading and bartaring 
around to try to gat tha thing to work bacausa tha taaas 
wara not working that closa togathar. 

fi Can you dascriba tha siza of tha hangar or tha 
warahousa or whatavaz that oontainad all tha aatarial, I aa 
talking about tha ailitary aatarial now whan you first 
azzlvad? 

A It was about a hundzad faat long and aayba 20 faat 



S I don't know that you can answar this quastion. but 
during tha oouzsa of tha tiaa that you waza thara, do you 



ONCUSSIRED 



129 



MAHE: HIR029000 



yNCUSSIHB 



PAGE 81 



1897 hava any idaa how many pounds worth oi mat«rlal was anptlAd 

1898 out oi thtt wazahouss and dalivazad? You alght know bacausa 

1899 you waza thara. 

1900 X I will giva you zound iiguras hara. 

1901 2 Fina. 

1902 A Hhan I got thaza I would say thaza was roughly 

1903 100,000 pounds worth oi aqulpmant In thara and at tha tina 
190>t wa iinlshad up thaza was, hali oi it was gona. 

1905 S Now, whan you want to tha iaza — ior ^oaa raason I 

1906 cannot pronounoa that word so I will kaap calling it tha 

1907 / iarm, whan you want to tha iarn was it sapazataly suppliad 

1908 iron anywhara or waza its supplias only izoi 

1909 ^^^^^^^H oz tha iazm, in^^^^^^Hwas suppliad' 

1910 altogathaz sapazataly. Xhis was an fDN, I kaap stating 

1911 this — 

1912 e Okay. 

1913 A — and this was a aain contza basa thaza which had 
19 m thaiz own aizozait and avazything, also thay had thaiz own 

1915 wazahousas which waza much aoza aassiva, thay had a huga 

1916 wazahousa thaza soaathing lik* 200 iaat by a hundzad iaat 

1917 plus a lot oi tants that waza iull oi old uniiozas and 

1918 ^fafchlng that was nacassazy to supply taaas. 

1919 ^K fi nayba 1 aa just now undazstandlng, so that tha 

1920 placa at^^^^^^Vwas basically usad to supply tha south. 

1921 A Corzaot. Thara is actually thzaa taaas, tha 




UNCUSSinEO 



130 



NAHX: 
1922 
1923 
1921 
1925 
1926 
1927 
1928 
1929 
1930 
1931 
1932 
1933 
193<« 
1935 
1936 
1937 
1938 
1939 
19U0 
19it1 
19it2 
19U3 
19U<I 
19«t5 
19U6 




iihSS' 



HIR029000 UI^VV.^ «»-'^ '• " PAGE 82 

nasqulttt, th« UNO and fDK. 

e Right. 

A But tha UKO was basically suppllad all out oi 
Tha FDN was all out oil 

2 So approxlaataly 50,000 pounds wozth oi aatarial 
that was suppllad out ^^^^^^^^^| that was what want to tha 
UNO taan. 

A Cozzact, axcapt llXa nayba 20 or so thousand want 
up to^^^^^^^^or tha^iazB foz tzading ioz pazachutas and 
that. 

2 Okay. 

A I know it is ooniusing. 

2 It was confusing until just than and .now X know' 
what you aza talking about'. At tha fazn, did tha oontzas 
also aaka dalivazias into — 

A Thay had a OC-6 of thaiz own, yas, which was 

suppllad to thaa. Thay also had a C-<i7. Thay had a iaw 

t 
Hauls, thay had a ooupla oi push-pull Cassnas . An L-19 thay 

had. and a hallo, a bunch of small aizozait. but tha main 

was tha DC-6 and C-U7 . 

B So tha placa at tha faza was substantially lazgaz 
ifktM tha othaz opazation. 

^ A It was tha aaln contza basa foz yaazs. I baliava. 
to tha bast of ay knowladga. 

2 How Buch of youz tiaa did you spand ii^^^^^^Hand 



liNCLASSIFIED 



131 



N&HI> RIK029000 



uNtussineo 



fiat 83 



19<47 hoH auoh of your tiaa did you spand At th« iaza? 
191(8 - A Th* iazm was, lat's just put it this wayj 
19ii9 ^^^^^^^Hwas basa . ^^^^^^^Buas a 

1950 oaaa> You 90 wozK out o£ thaza ioz a waak H thay hava tha 

1951 Hozk. You 90 down thaza and stay, you bzou9ht a aachanlo 

1952 Mlth you, tha contzas thansalvas gava you all tha iual you 

1953 naadad and all tha iood If you so daslzad, thay suppliad you 
195it all tha May with aaohanles to halp you, anything. 

1955 a Lat aa dlzaot youz attantlon to tha aatazlal that 

1956 Mas stozad and Z say aatazlal, Z aaan tha allitazy aatazlal 

1957 that Mas at tha faza. 

1958 A Klght. 

1959 fi Could you tall by looking at it tha ozigin. of that 

1960 aatazlal? 

1961 I Zt Mas tha saaa as^^^^^^H axaotly, in fact just 

1962 auoh Boza aassiva. & lot of thaiz stuff and unifozas and 

1963 stuff Mas aoquizad thzough fozaign aazkati 
196U and stuff lika that, a lot of thosa, thaiz hats and othaz 

1965 unifozas, parts of unifozas. 

1966 a loH did you knoH that? 

1967 k Soaa of thaiz, Hhat you oall it. you get youz 

1968 ^ ^^Blazd hat Hhioh Z fozgat how you say it in Spanish but 

1969 ^^^BnbtJiar hat Mith a bzia, soabzazo, Mhioh thay also usad 

1» eaaouflaga, thay Maza all^^^^^^^^^^Hbaoausa tha 
1971 tags on it, I oould go to a stoza anyMhaza doMu haza and it 



UNCUSSIHED 



132 



NAHX 
1972 
1973 
197i» 
1975 
1976 
1977 
1978 
1979 
1980 
1981 
1982 
1983 
1984 
1985 
1986 
1987 
1988 
1989 
1990 
1991 
1992 
1993 
199(1 
1995 
1996 




HIR029000 Wt»MfcflW^#tl IfcA^ PAGE 8U 

fi But th« militazy aquipnant again lika tha hand 
gzanadas and tha aoztazs — 

i And aany of tha uniform, yas, and tha boots, thay 
had savazal diffazant kinds, jungla boots. Right now tha 
U.S. Govaznmant is bzoka down with spaoial fozcas, wa hava 
tha jungla boot, now wa hava tha mountain boot and it is 
gatting ozazy. this invantozy. And thay had similaz things. 

e Tha boxas, foz axampla. that oontainad tha gzanadas 
had Unitad Statas aazkings? 

A Cozzact, a lot of tha boxas wara zapackad, lat aa 
put it that way. Soma of tha stuff in thaa was takan out 
and othaz aatazial lika guns oz anything, zapaoking thaa' 
just lika you go to tha gzboazy stoza and gat a coupla 
eazdboazd boxas and zapaok thaa and aail thaa soaaplaoa. 

2 Just ona oz two quastions aoza on this lina. Haza 
tha wazahousas at tha faza zasuppliad duzing tha paziod of 
tiaa that you wara thaza? 

A Thay oould hava baan. This was all takan caza of 
by thalr own paopla. Thasa paopla wara vazy alita coapazad 
to tha faw paopla wa had *^^^^^^^^H Hoi* thay got it thaza 
^M»*t know, but I know thay waza zasuppliad with 
^^P^hutas and aviation gas and othar things, uniforas and 
stuff Ilka that. Z baliava. oaaa in thara. 

fi But you don't know how? 



UNCIASSIHED 



133 



NAHE: 

1997 
1998 
1999 
2000 
2001 
2002 
2003 
20014 
2005 
2006 
2007 
2008 
2009 
2010 
201 1 
2012 
2013 
201tt 
2015 
2016 
2017 
2018 
2019 
2020 
2021 



UNCUiSSIFe 



HIK029000 IIIWI«I Halalll II U PAGE 85 

A I nav«r s«an it bacausa Ilka I say wa would ily 
thaza> stay a faw days and ba gona and probably wouldn't ba 
thaza for a coupla waaks mora and ratuzn just aayba for a 
quick trip in and gona again. 

8 Did you raiiain friandly with Coopar during tha 
pariod of tiaa you wara thara? 

A Oh> vary nuch so, yas . Parsonalitlas changed a 
littla bit but-- 

e Who did Coopar answar to? Mho was Coopar 's 
supervisor ? 

A I know Outton was a supervisor, ona oi his 
innadiatas . Abova that it was hearsay. I heard names like 
Gadd which I heard also that Dutton replaced Gadd> above 
that there was, everybody Vas asking who is above this and 
Seeord's nana was brought up several tines, but Bill Cooper 
hinself never really cone out and said yes, you know. 

A couple other guys like^^^^^^^^H and^^Hatnd 
were sitting around House 3 one night and they were brought 
up and Z believe it was in TiMe or Newsweek, one oi them 
where Seeord's picture was in. Bill pointed him out and 
said that is the guy. Things like this. 

S Old you ever meet Dutton? 

A Yes, X did. 

ft Did you know, had you ever met Outton prior to the 
time you went to Central Amezloa? 



yNCUSSiflED 



134 



KAHE 
2022 
2023 
2020 
2025 
2026 
2027 
2028 
2029 
2030 
2031 
2032 
2033 
203<4 
2035 
2036 
2037 
2038 
2039 
2040 
20X1 
20U2 
20143 
20I4II 
20K5 
20U6 



HIR029000 
A 
fi 
A 



No, I did not. 

You mat Dutton down in 

I mat him, yes, wall. 



PACK 86 




baing 



tha sama placa, yas . 

e HoH long was ha down thaza? 

A X would say approximataly a waak. 

2 Do you zamambaz whan it was? 

A Saptambaz 8, this is tha first tima I mat him. 
Saptambaz 8 I baliava was on a Monday. 

e Okay. Has this aitaz you had zatuznad izom youz 
two waaks? 

A Cozzact. 

ha go down to^^^^^^^^^^Hwith 

A Ko, ha was thaza alzaady whan Z got thaza. 

Q Ha was thaza appzoximataly ioz a waak? 

A Yas. 

e Did you hava any oonvazsations with him? 

A Yas, mysali, I was mora or lass in ohazga oi tha 
haad air fraight spaoialist, in othaz words, and I was in 
charga oi making sura wa had anough aquipmant on hand to 
rasupply anything by air, you know, that avarything was 
^||BX* whieh was a nica titla but it wasn't worth anything 
^pMusa avarything I talkad with saying wa naad so many A7A 
slings, baoausa Z was askad what would it taka to dalivar 
this whola warahousa, so Z giva tham an ordar oi 6 or 7 



UNCIASSIHED 



135 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HknZ- HIR029000 1111111-0111111 IL.I/ PAGE 87 



20tl7 
20tt8 
20*49 
2050 
2051 
2052 
2053 
2051* 
2055 
2056 
2057 
2058 
2059 
2060 
2061 
2062 
2063 
206K 
2065 
2066 
2067 
2068 
2069 
2070 
2071 



hundrsd paxachutas> so many A7JI rings and rings that go 
along, but it was navar recruitad. 

Thay bartarad and tradad with^^^^^^H for a lot o£ this 
stuii. That is mainly what I talkad with Dutton about. If 
I neadad it ha was supposad to raczuit it hara in tha statas 
through whoavar ha daals with. 

fi Do you know who Dutton workad ior? Do you know who 
amployad Dutton. lat ma ask you that? 

A No, no / I do not. 

fi Did you bacoma iriandly with Dutton? 

A Hall, ha was a likaabla guy. 

fi Whan is tha last tima you talkad to Dutton? 

A Oh. lat's saa. 13th. right up in thara, mth. right 
just baiora ha lait thara I baliava. 

fi Thirtaanth or iourtaanth of Saptambar? 

A Yas. corraot. 

fi So you hava not talkad to him sinoa you hava baan 
back in tha statas? 

A No. Z hava not saan or haazd from him mysali. 

fi And did Dutton tall you anything about anything 
alsa about tha oparation? 

i No. Dutton was vary coy. just balng. you know, his 
»suxa tima in front of avarybody thara was vary short. 
and ha was vary ooy of what ha said to anybody, baing in tha 
highax aohalon. kapt his convaxsatlons down to mayba Coopar 



am 



IINCLASSIREO 



136 



2072 
2073 
207U 
2075 
2076 
2077 
2078 
2079 
2080 
2081 
2082 
2083 
20814 
2085 
2086 
2087 
2088 
2089 
2090 
2091 
2092 
2093 
209U 
2095 
2096 



HIR029000 
and iiayb* mysali an 



Kussra 



PXGE 



2 Did Coopax tall you anything about Dutton? 

I No> not much, ha just said ha is mora ox lass in 
ehaxga, whan ha is haxa, and stuii lika that. 

e Did Coopar. I taka it Coopax from tima to tima must 
hava baan calling paopla, lat ma put it this May, I hava tha 
sansa this opaxation was constantly naading moxa mataxial 
and moxa monay and vaxious things and Coopax must hava baan 
calling paopla asking fox additional mataxial and things 
lika that. Is that txua? Is that an acouxata assassmant? 

A That is a vaxy acouxata assassmant. 

S Do you know who ha oallad? 

k 1 knaw mayba that ha callad Dutton bacausa a ooupla 
timas ha said ha would hava to call but any othax namas than 
that xaally, no, ha pxobably would call SAT fox paxts and 
stuii lika this but thaxa was many a phona call that cama in 
iox him and many phona calls that want out. This was just a 
lot of timas a shoxt paxiod of tima that I would visit Housa 
3. 

fi Thasa waxa calls mada in and out of Housa 3? 

A Yas . 

a That is whaxa Coopax livad? 
Jl A Corxact. 

fi pid ha hava an offica in Housa 3? 

A Sort of. I guass you could say. Ha had his own 



137 



KAHE 

2097 
2098 
2099 
2100 
2101 
2102 
2103 
210(4 
2105 
2106 
2107 
2108 
2109 
21 10 
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pzivata badroon and that. 

S To youz Knowladga did he «vaz talk, this again as I 
say Is to youz personal Knowledge — did he ever talk to Hz. 
Secozd? 

A To the best oi my knowledge, X nevez knew that he 
did. 

fi Did he evez tell you that he talked to Secozd? 

A No. 

2 You indicated that you nentioned a Hz. Gadd, G-a-d- 
d, I believe it is, did he talk to Gadd duzing the time that 
you weza theze? 

A I do not know, no. 

Ox 
2 I think I asked you earlier about DefAzay, did he 

talk to him duzing the time that you weze theze? 

A I don't know that. Hhat would happen, he had a 
phone upstairs in his bedroom and^^^^^^^^Vzoom that was 
tuzned into an oiiica mora or less, there was a private 
phone in theze plus the other phone out. 

Hhat ha would do is a lot oi times ha had one oi these 
sczambling machines or one oi thasa you can dictate into 
Ilka the press has and you stuii like this, you can type 
tparything Into it and it was all sat up where it had a 
^jlKaablaz on it and you would call the number and he would 
say stand by, and I would put on a headset and feed 
everything out and you wouldn't know. Ha will just azase it 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HZR029000 



after that. 



ii?«!Jissm 



PAGE 90 



e Do you know tha aak* oi this aachlna? 

t Z don't know. 

S Did anyona alsa hava a naohina Ilka that? 

was^^^^^^^^Busad Ma knoM. 

fi It was In Mousa 3? 

A Yas. 

S Locatad In Kousa 3. So you know who was on tha 
othaz and of thosa scraitblad calls? 

A Xo, I don't. I know a lot oi tlmas ha told ma a 
lot of tima It was--wa would ba talking and ha would say this 
is baing zun dlzactly out of tha Uhlta Housa and dlffazant 
things Ilka that. Tha only thing Z can prasuaa If Z had' 
thosa talaphona nunbazs my'salf, tha lists that was aequirad 
f zoi^^^^^^^^^^^H whara thay all want to Z could probably 
say thasa wara thara baoausa it is thara in black and whita. 

S Lat na just — Z am not sura Z followad that. Zf you 
had tha list— 

A Zf Z had tha talaphona numbaxs that wara acquired 
froi^^^^^^^^^Hfzom tha phona company from Housa whan 
thay found out whaza thasa phona numbers were here> there or 
■hszavar. thay had to receive an and. So that is tha only 
^Mng Z oeuld go on. But Z didn't know about all this until 
later on. 

e But you recall him at the time mentioning that this 



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umi^sra 



NAnE= HIR029000 Ull tiL.nw V<> •WV PAGE 91 



21U7 
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2169 
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thing is run out of the White House? 

A Oh, he said that several trines, yes. Very 
seriously. 

e Did he tell you any specifics about who in the 
White House? 

A He didn't come out and really pinpoint anybody, no. 
Bush's nane was mentioned a couple times. 

Q Did he know Bush? 

A I don't know. 

2 Did he — X guess I would ask you this way — in what 
context did he mention Bush's name? 

A When he said it is being run out of the White House 
and Bush knew things, his name was brought up. Z don't know 
how the telephone conversation went or who he called, but 
the White House and Bush's name was mainly brought up a lot 
of times because of Gomez, Rodriguez was there and had quite 
a bit of power. 

2 I was about to roll into Rodriguez anyway. 
Rodriguez was actually down there during the period of time 
that you were there? 

A Yes. 

8 And had you met, did you know him prior to the time 
'fM't you were down there? 

A No, I did not. 

2 You didn't know him when you were in Southeast 



ONClASSIflEO 



140 



HIME: H1X029000 U^'f^l iAHf**.^ '•»GE 92 



2172 
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218U 
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2189 
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2191 
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2191* 
2195 
2196 



A Ko. I did not. 

2 Did you know him down th«re by tha nana of 
Kodxlguaz oz Goiiaz? 

A Gomaz. 

Q Did you bacoma iziandly with hia? 

A Kot zaally, no. I Knaw hia and wa talkad i£ wa had 
to talk and that was it. just strictly ior businass. 

2 Hhara did ha liva? 

Ha livad^^^^^^^^Hin tha bachaloz's 
quaztazs . 

2 Ha — 

A I baliava. That is whaza I knaw his plaea was.' 
that is whaza you oould find hia now and than. 

2 Z want to gat back to Goaaz but I want to ask about 
two othaz paopla. You aada a zafarenca to a parson called 
Raaon. Do you know his last naaa? 

A No. I hava it though and I oopiad this out of 
papars. Luis 2uasada^Cozallas oz whatavaz it is. 

2 I will ask you, but was his naaa Raaon Hadina? 

A Yas, that is what wa zafazzad to hia as. 

2 You knaw hia at tha tiaa as Xaaon? 
-. A Yas, this othaz naaa had nothing to do with it. 

2 Uhan you giva tho naaa Luis 2uasada — 

A This was tha naaa tha nawspapaz dug up. Roach was 



iisr.uss!ntD 



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NAME 
2197 
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HIR029000 



llNCtilSSinED 



PAGE 93 



his othar nana or what«ver 



fi This was soattthlng you laaznad aitar tha fact. 

A Aitaz tha fact. yas. 

fi Ua will zafaz to hla as Ranon bacausa I want to 
keap It restrlctad to knowladga you had whan you wata thate 
beioza you cama back. 

Was ha down thara during tha coursa of tlma you 
waza down thara? 

A Vary muoh so. 

fi Thara was anothar nama, Rafaal fiulntaro. 

A I Knaw him just as Rafaal. 

fi You didn't Know his last nana? 

A Ho, X did not. 

fi You hava subsaquaritly laaznad his last nana Is 
fiulntaro? 

A Corraot. 

fi Did thay all thraa llva thara? 

A Rafaal would visit, ha visltad twlca during tha 
total duration of ay tlma thara. 

fi But Hadlna and Rodrlguaz wara around fraquantly? 

A Yas, thay llvad right thara. 
^. fi Did Hadlna also llva thara? 
WL A No, Hadlna had a casa that wasn't fax froB Housa 



No. 



Lat ma gat back to Rodrlguaz. Kara thosa thraa 



DNCLASSinED 



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NAHK: HII1029000 ff/iJ'*f i f% J^ . ^ PAGE 9*4 

2222 guys 
2223 
222<( fi Did th«y spend a lot of tlma togathsr? 

2225 A Th*y talKad a lot togathai. 

2226 e Did you Know any oi th«m baioxa you startad HorKing 

2227 thaxa? 

2228 A No, I did not. 

2229 2 Wa got on to Rodxiguaz baoausa you nantionad him in 

2230 connaction with tha Hhita Housa. How Mas it that you 

2231 connactad him to tha Whita Housa? 

2232 Again I want to ba sura that you axa answazing as 

2233 oi tha tima you wara thara and not something you may hava 
223<4 laasnad about latar. 

2235 A This is whan I was thaza, but what was happening 

2236 was I don't know tha exact data oi hiza when Bill Coopaz 

2237 came in, I undezstand this Gadd hized Coopez and he also 

2238 hizec 

2239 fi Do you know that fzom Coopez? 

2240 A No. othaz people told me this. 

22'(1 What was happening is Coopez was taking ovez fzom 

22M2 the othez people who weze in chazge theze befoze Coopez. 

22>(3 m» they were hized fzom oz wheze they came fzom. I don't 

22i|ii 4l*i(' A lot of people don't know. Coopez pzobably knew. 

But^^^^^^^^l he 
22U6 e^^^^^Bias theze prior to that time? 



UNClASSIflEO 



143 



NAHK: 
22U7 
221*8 
22U9 
2250 
2251 
2252 
2253 
225i( 
2255 
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2261 
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2263 
226<( 
2265 
2266 
2267 
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yrmnssm 




HIK029000 Ili'tfSki U.^.^ll II_1J PA6K 95 

Yas, vary much so. Hhat was happanlng is on and 
oii tha bas ^bhara was qonfli^cts ^ Intara si 

nax GoBaz was a closa coapanlor 

Coopar coming in and taking ovar and baing a naw 
individual, thara was conflicts oi intarast, lika I am 
saying, onca Coopar said it would ba dona this way. but wa 
all got to gat along, and thaxa was haad bumping. Now and 
than wa couldn't fly tha airplanas, couldn't avan gat on to 
[air basa fox tha xaason Hax Gomaz would tall 

[this is tha way it is going to run. Coopar 
would Knock haads with Hax Gomaz. Hax Gomaz would hava tha 
uppar hand baing f ziands^^^^^^^^^^^^ and you couldn't" gat 
on tha basa or touch tha airplanas. so it thraw a lot of 
monkay wranchas into tha prooass of what was happaning. 

Kow what was happaning thaza is ona tima Coopar 
mada savaral phona calls to whoavar ha was making tham to. 
ha said ha had had about anough of this, ha has to hava 
command oz put somabody alsa in ohazga to taka oaza of this 
madhousa . 

So whan thasa namas wars bzought up.^^^^^^^^Hwas 
tailing ma that. wall. Bill Coopaz is going to losa. Ha is 
^m^g to losa zight away bacausa Hax Gomaz is going back to 
tha statas. ha knows Gaozga Bush pazsonally bacausa Hax 
Gomaz supposadly baing with tha CZA and Oaozga Bush's 



ll?!CUSSIflEO 



144 



HAHE: HIR02^000 | ^ ' i ; I AuUirtLU '**°^ '^ 

2272 connactlon with tha CIA, uata ixiands . So thaza is just, 

2273 you can just about lay money Bill Coopaz was going to losa 
227'4 and Max Gonaz would coma out tha victoz. 

2275 This is wh an Gaoz ga Bush's nama was bzought into it much 

2276 heavier byl 

2277 S KoH, when did this bumping take place? 

2278 A This was in July and August. 

2279 2 Has theze moze than one convezsation with| 

2280 ^^^^H about the conilict between Gomez and Coopez? 

2281 A Yes.^^^^^^^H being one oi tha fizst individuals 

2282 theze was not in iavoz — he did not caze ioz William Coopez 

2283 that much as some of the othez people that Coopez let 
228U tezminate themselves, and which ^^^HH^^^w as one of them. 

2285 S Did he — 

2286 A Theze was bad ieelings a lot o£ times. 

2287 fi Coopez fizedl 

2288 A No, he let just about evezybody tezminate 

2289 themselves. 

2290 e Okay. 

2291 A That is Hhaza things waza said because William 

2292 Coopez was dzawing back tzying to establish a new thing here 

2293 9»ttlng people who did this beioze, that is why he was 
9«lllng people like^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^l myself, 

2295 he was going back to wheze people did all this stuff foz 

2296 many yeazs and ha was tzying to fozm a nucleus. That is 



m 



145 



mmm 



HIR029000 C '; , <l|\.miUII '^^ ^'^<^E ^"^ 
exactly what happened here except fox a feu of the people, 
on* of the pilots had stuck around that fit into it very 
wall. 

That was Sawyer, Buzz Sawyer. He just fit into it 
beautiful. But anyway, out of all this stuff Cooper was 
back in the states. Max Gonez was in the states, and all of 
them came back and William Cooper won the battle and he was 
in charge and Max Gomez was told to keep a low profile, but 
Cooper being the individual he was, he did not want to lose 
him as an ally, Max Gomez, because of his expertise of 
knowing everybody there, knowing the shortcuts and all the 
political parts of it. 

So they got along together after that, quite well. 

2 So did Cooper and Gomez both go back to the states 
together? 

A I believe they were, yes. 

2 Do you remember when that was? Was it before or 
after you went home for your two weeks? 

X That was before. 

2 So sometime in August probably? 

A Correct. 

2 Do you know who they met with? 
^ A I don't know. I know they went back to Washington 
here . 

2 Okay. Do you know whether they saw any political 



WUSSffl 



146 



NAHE: 
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U 




HXR029000 ^T""'^— " PAGE 98 

iiguras ox whather they sau Dutton? 

A Ko, I don't know. 

S Other than that one ueek, was Dutton ever down 
there? 

A That was the only time I ever seen him down there. 

2 Did Bush's nana cone up in any context other than 
this battle between Cooper and Gonez? 

A That was mainly it, yes. 

2 And during the times that Cooper would make 
reierences to this thing being run out oi the Hhite House as 
you said, he never mentioned any specific names or anything? 

A He never mentioned any names, no. 

2 Obviously a name that has arisen since then was' 
Colonel Korth. Has that name ever mentioned? 

A X never heard his name before. 

2 Has he ever down there to your knowledge? 

A Ko. 



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147 



HIR029000 



CNCuxsm 



PAGE 99 



DCnK STEVENS 



fi And Adniral Poindextez> was his nana ever 
■•ntioned? 

A Ho. 

2 Do you know Colonel North? 

A No . I don't Know the nan individually. 

C You have never met him? 

A No. 

fi And never talked to him on the phone? 

A No. 

2 To your knowledge, Poindexter was never down there 
during the period of time you were there. 

A Ho. 

2 Hhen was the last time that you spoke to Gomez? 
Let me ask you this — that is a bad way to ask 
it--have you spoken to Gomez since you have been back in the 
States? 

A Ho. 

2 Have you spoken to Medina since you have been back 
in the States? 

A No. 

a Or have you spoken to fiuintaro since you have been 

in the States? 

A None of them, no. 

e This may be a hard question to answer, but what was 






UNcussra 



148 



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HIR029000 



limHSSlflED 



PAGE 100 



GoBttz' day-to-day zasponslbllitlas7 

A Goaaz was to tha b ast of ay knowl adga just thinKing 
ovaz> ha lialson^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hhe 
was also liaison vary much so in batuaan tha rON^^^H^^^^H 

and also tha UNO taan. howavar thay comiiunlcatad ox 
howavar thay did lt> ha was In chaxga of that. Ha knaw 
whatavar ox howavar thay coBBunlcatad. 

2 Did Goaaz avax tall you — you Indlcatad^^^^^f told 
this story about how Goaaz was CIA and Bush was CIA. Did 
Gomaz avar tall you ha had baan with tha CIA or was CIA or 
anything? 

A Ko> Max Goaaz and I. wa navar had eonvarsatlons 
Ilka that. 

e I want to ask about tha two othar Individuals which 
ara Hadina, what wara Hadlna's day-to-day rasponslbilltlas? 

A Hadlna was undarnaath Rax Goaaz. Mis aaln job 
would ba Baking sura tha housas wara all takan caxa of, thay 
had tha pxopar sarvants, tha food was thara, rant was paid, 
vahlelas wara kapt running, tha drlvars, and aaklng sura wa 
had fual for an aircraft. 

Just aisoallanaous stuff Ilka that. 

S Old ha pay tha axpansas? 

A Yas, ha had an axpansa account, I ballava, yas. 

fi Do you know who aaployad Rodrlguaz? 

A No, I don't know who ha actually caaa undarnaath. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



149 



HIR029000 



'i;mmm 



PACK 101 



e You don't know li ha was on tha payroll oi 
Corpoiata Alx Sarvlcas? 

A Z doubt that thay ara such. 

2 How about nadina? 

A X doubt that thay axa nuch. 

fi You doubt it but you axa not suxa? 

A I an not suxa but Z doubt it vaxy much. 

fi Do you know whaxa nadina got tha monay that ha usad 
to pay his aKpansas, to iiaka his paymants fox axpansas? 

A Yas . All this haxa nonay, thay would hava 
diifaxant pilots or diiiaxant machanics would xotata batwaan 

and^^^^^^^^^^B Thay would caxxy as such oash 
lagally on than baok into^^^^^^^^^^Bin U.S. cuxxancy. 

e You waxa back in tha Unitad Statas two tinas. Let 
na taka thosa ona at a tiiia . You waxa in tha Unitad Statas 
two timas/ tha iixst tlna you want down thara. did you carry 
cash with you on that occasion? 

A Z navax carxiad any cash with ma. 

e As far as you know,^^^^^^Kdldn't althar? 

A Z don't baliava so> no. 

ft Tha sacond tiota did you carry cash with you? 

A Z didn't avan bothax to go through thaa. Z want 
strictly coaaarcial that tima. 

ft Tha two waaks that you caaa back I guass was tha 



it^LiWvili 



iED 



150 



NAHE 

aim 

2U15 

2m6 

2U17 
2>418 
2419 
2>«20 
2(121 
2U22 
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2'42<4 
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2426 
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2431 
2432 
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2437 
2438 



HIR029000 



yiiCLASSIHED 



PAGE 102 



last wattk of August and ilxst waak of Saptanbax. 

A Cozzaot. 

fi That was just puzaly a vacation. 

A Stziotly vacation and maatlng my folks, yas . 

e Do you know whaza tha paopla who got tha Bonay, tha 
cash up to tha linit which, as Z undazstand> was «10,000. do 
you know whaza thay obtainad tha monay? 

A To tha bast oi ay knowladga, thay got it all fzom 
Southazn Aiz Tzanspozt. 

fi And what did thay do with it whan thay azzivad in 

It was tuznad ovaz to Coopaz. 

Coopaz . 

If Coopaz wasn't %haza, it would ba tuznad ovaz to 



e Do you know how many tiaas this happanad? 

A Z wasn't thaza all tha tiaa whan tha paopla zotatad 

oz anything, but tha axaot nuabaz oi tiaas, I don't know. 

fi Mould it happan onoa a waak? 

A Hhanavaz it was iaasibla oz whan avazybody zotatad 
-P 
lika avan individuals lika Ra^aal whan ha would ooaa ha 

namld oazzy as auoh as possibla oz aachanics oz anybody that 

^m ooaing back and iozth izoa laava oz anyona that would 

ooaa thzough thaza who wantad to bzing it fzoa Southazn Aiz. 

Thay wouldn'^ say, you do this, oz anything. Thay didn't 



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HIR029000 ^i 1 : ••? '"^lidjl'll II PAGE 103 
iorca anything on mysalf anyway. 

e What waza RaAael's days to — you only mat him twica, 
I undazstand. 

A Ha was a highaz aehalon, mainly through tha UKO 
team. Ha was in charga . Probably highar than Max Gomaz. 

fi You think ha was highar than Hax Gomaz? 

A Ha was navar around thara, ha just cama down 
saldom, two timas that I know oi, to ooordinata diffarant 
things . 

fi Do you know whara ha cama ^BB on thosa two 
occasions? 

A Ha cama from Florida. 

2 Do you know who amployad Rafmaal? 

A Ko, I don't. 

2 But in aach casas ha had coma down irom Florida? 

A Corract. 

2 And it is your undarstanding that ha brought down 
with him cash on aach occasion? 

A Z ballava so, yas. 

2 And whara did Ra^^al stay whan ha cama down? 

A I don't know. Ha might hava stayad thara at housa 
tftBtt* a ooupla tlmas. Kow and than paopla wara thara or not 
4^§jc*. Thara wara thraa or four badrooas. Othar than that, 
ha Bight hava stayad at ona oi tha hotali 
r somathing. 



pri ^^S-^ 



152 



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HIR029000 
S 
k 
GOBSZ. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 104 



What did ha do whan ha cana down? 

Ha would aainly talk with Coopar and Ranona and nax 



e Did Coopaz tall you what his zola was? 

A Ko, ha did not. 

e Did ^^^^^^^Bk a 11 you what his zola was? 

A No. 

fi Did you hava pazsonal convazsations with hiit? 

A Kot zaally. Ha just askad aa if thaza was anough 
aquipmant and how waza thasa paopla ^i^^^^^^^^B ^^^ waza 
thay doing ioz zigging and matazial and stuff lika that 
bacause I was changing it azound a littla bit bacausa It 
wasn't zaally up to spacs. 

e Lat na ask you, I think Z askad you but I want to 
ba suza Z did, tha coda nachina that you indlcatad that 
Coopaz had, that was usad by Coopaz and^^^^^^^Hand 

did anyona alsa hava a coda aaohina lika that? 
That was tha only ona Z know of that was thaza. 



yas. 



e But all thzaa of thaa usad it? 

A Cozzaot. 

ft Do you know whaza thay got it? 

A Z don't know whaza thay aoozuad it. 

ft Aza you gatting tlzad? 

A Ko. Z aa not tlzad. Z aa haza to do whatavaz you 



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HIR029000 



Mtuma 



PAGE 105 



gentlemen would like. 

2 Was there a guy involved by the naiie of Cupp> c-u-p- 
p, or c-u-p? 

A I don't recall that at all, no. There was always 
somebody whispering back in the corner all the time and I 
wondered a lot of the time whether I was even there. I 
would say. Bill, what is going on? I got to know. But he 
would say the less you know the better off you are. 

8 Did he tell you why? 

A I don't know what was going on in his mind, but the 
amount of people or who he was involved with he was trying 
to keep secluded for a good reason and I can understand why 
now. 

5 But at the time he didn't tell you why you would be 
better off not knowing? 

A Ko. 

HR. PLEGER: Is that Cup? 

MR. EGGLESTON! C-U-p or c-u-p-p. 

HR. SMEETOK' Two "p's". 

BY HR. EGGLESTON: 
fi X know you were not a pilot, but the times that you 
sad* flights, did you always fly with the same crew? 

6 No. He were trying to keep this project pay, when 
you were flying into Nicaragua bused up so everybody would 
be even. So we wanted to fly, started out flying like two 



unclassiheh 



154 



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MIR029000 1Jt1iML.nWII IkW PAGE 106 
individuals in the back of a Caribou and a C-123 latex on> 
but back here in the States somebody didn't go along with 
this because it was costing then extra noney, they were 
cutting corners as nuch as possible so only one individual 
would be in the back so we were scattered around quite a bit 
like I said. I was on ten drops. Naturally there was much 
more than ten drops, exactly I didn't keep track of them, 
while I was on leave drops were made and other flights were 
made, but that is mainly how that works. 

2 So you varied. You were not — 

A Right. 

S Cooper wasn't always the pilot. 

A No, no. Cooper would stay there much more, he 
would sacrifice his time to appease people because sometimes 
you got stuck down there longer than you would like to. The 
contract more or less was you worked like 21 days on, ten 
days off, that was the etiquette, something like that, and 
you tried to do it as much as that. Hith the number of 
aircraft we had and the way things were so indecisive, some 
times there would be a lot of work, then there would be 
nothing . 

So sometimes you would get stuck a little longer 
•M you couldn't justify hiring anybody else to get involved 
in this to try and really cover a schedule where everybody 
could have the exact time off they were talking about. 



Ui 



«;ussinEo 



155 



HIR029000 



....lASSIFIEU 



PAGE 107 



S I want to ask you about how th« flights worKad. 
Hhan you Kn«H you waxa going to naka a drop, say, into 
Nleazagua, actually a drop as opposad to a point-to-point. 

A Yas. 

e How did you know what to put in tha aizplana7 Who 
told you what to put in tha aizplana? 

A Ha ouzsalvas did not dacida this.] 

bha contza laadars would say, wa 
would just say okay, this is suoh and such, wa can taka 
5,000 pounds, that is usually what wa giva tham. Thay would 
dacinata tha DZ and thay would giva us 5,000 pounds of 
aquipmant and that would ba it. 

fi So whan you flaw out of tha faza, again using that 
fozB of tha taza, you had tha DZ pziozity tha tina that you 
laft. 

A Oh, yas. 

e And was thaza soma signal that would lat you know 
that it was safa to dzop oz that whoavaz was to xacaiva it 
was going to ba in tha azaa oz anything lika that? 



rnkmii 



156 



2558 
2559 
2560 
2561 
2562 
2563 
256U 
2565 
2566 
2567 
2568 
2569 
2570 
2571 
2572 
2573 
257U 
2575 
2576 
2577 
2578 
2579 
2580 
2581 
2582 






HIR029000 f '■ ''J ' # J! rt A ''*''* '°® 

RPTS BRADriZlD ■ '^ * - ^ 

OCnX DOXOCK 
ia< 15 p.m. 

A Yas, out of the iazm again, wa would taKtt a contra 
radio oparator with us, and ha would coma along and ha had 
two Hf radios, in casa ena maliunctionad and anothar ona, a 
small littla brick radio, and ha would talk to tha taam 
himsalf and variiy things, ha would know axactly whara tha 
drop was, but all thasa drops I was on wara all at night, 
but ha would maka contract, maka sura it was tha taam. 

Kow and than, you would ba ilying and somabody alsa 
start talking, tha ovar-hara trick. ' 

Hhan you flaw ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H ^^^ 
you hava a contra individual. with you on thosa occasions? 

A Occasionally wa did. lika tha last trip wa did, but 
thara was altogathar difiarant. Thay waza supposad to hava 
signals out. Difiarant variations wa triad to sat up, but 
tha UNO taam was altogathar difiarant. Thay navar had a 
signal out onca and aftar wa raturnad a coupla of timas with 
tha cargo, othar paopla lika Gomaz and Raphaal, thay just 
said okay, this ona placi 




You couldn't miss tha gaogra||hio location. Drop it 
all thaza anyway, which wa did bafoza wa got back to 



i.ro» 



157 



MZR029000 



UNCLASSIHED 



PAGE 109 



thay coaa up and got it, you know. This happaned 
savaxal tlmas lika that. 

fi So on thosa occasions whan you droppad in tha south. 
who was it you told, who told you oz tha pilot whaza to 
dzop? 

A This all cana thzough lika Hax Gonaz. caaa up with 
tha coozdinating dzops. tha coozdinatas ioz it. oz Raiton had 
it. and whaza thay got it. 

2 You don't know? 

A ny suspicion is. it could hava cana out od 
^^^^■Flozida oz out of any plaoa. 

e On thosa occasions, as faz as you know, thay waza 
tha paopla . 

A Yas. 

e Did aithaz ona o£ than avazj^ go in flight? 

A No. thay waza not allowad to. At ona tima. I 
baliava. I wasn't thaza than. I guass Ranon want on a 
flight. 

fi On tha occasions whan you flaw out of^^^^^^^^as 
opposad to out of tha faza. how did you know what to load in 
tha plana? 

A ^^^^^^Hwas tha saaa way. Captain Loaaz was a 
|f|«i,aon thaza with his zadio opazatozs. it was alzaady 
coniizaad thaza wa could taka so aany thousand pounds thaza. 

ft And^^^^^^^^^^^B would tall you what to load in tha 



UNCUSSiFIED 



158 



2608 
2609 
2610 
261 1 
2612 
2613 
261K 
2615 
2616 
2617 
2618 
2619 
2620 
2621 
2622 
2623 
262i( 
2625 
2626 
2627 
2628 
2629 
2630 
2631 
2632 



HZR029000 i 



plana? 



Ui 



mmii 



PAGE 110 




A That and coozdination with Goaaz thaza and Ranon. 
S Okay> and ha Mas a contza?j 
A Corzaot. 

2 Was ha locatad Tight onj 
A 1»s , ha livad in tha officaz quaztazs thaza, I 
baliava . 

Did^^^^^^^^^^^Hhava a coda 
A Mo, ha didn't hava anything lika that. I know in 
tha back o£ this wazahousa ^^^IH^Bthaza was a saall 
quaztazs in tha back whaza his man stayad, thzaa, iouz oi 
than, thay had bunks, showazs, and thaza was a lazgar zadio 
thaza. 

fi You- don't know wha'thaz it had sozanbling 
capabilitias oz not? 

A I don't think so. 

HK. PLEGER: Hhan do you aat? 
(Discussion off tha zacozd.] 

HR. EGGLESTOK' Z was Baking suza I wasn't laaving 
anything bahlnd> sinoa I sozt oi ignozad my notas . 
Dapanding on what othaz quastions tha othaz paopla ask, I 
Mtw ho'ping w« could finish and go to lunch lataz. 
BY BR. EGGLESTON' 




UNCLASSIFIED 



159 



^/ 









UNCIASSIHED 



160 



NAHZ 
2708 
2709 
2710 
2711 
2712 
2713 
27m 
271S 
2716 
2717 
2718 
2719 
2720 
2721 
2722 
2723 
272U 
2725 
2726 
2727 
2728 
2729 
2730 
2731 
2732 



HIX029000 



UNCIASSIRED 



PAGE nu 




I am going to ask you about soma othax naitas, and 
ask you whathar you knoH thasa naaas. and as I ask you thasa 
quastlons. during tha tlaa that you waxa down thaza> not 
what you Bay hava laaznad about any sinoa you got back. 
Donald 6zagg> G-z-a-g-g? 

k Mo. 

8 John Slnglaub? 

1 No, X aa zaiazzlng all this to as a tlaa Z was 
actually Involvad In that tiaa sona. 

ft Right, not slnca than? 



IIMUSSIFIED 



161 



KAME 
2733 

2735 
2736 
2737 
2738 
2739 
2740 
27t»1 
2742 
2743 
2744 
274S 
2746 
2747 
2748 
2749 
2750 
2751 
2752 
2753 
2754 
2755 
2756 
2757 



HIR029000 



lifreiASsiFiEir 



PAGE lis 



A Lika soma oi thasa namas cama out latar on, aitar I 
was in prison. 

e A P. J- Blecklaz? 

A No. 

2 Robart Owan? 

A Ko. 




2 Okay, you uaza paid during this tiiia by tha uira 
transfar nathod, is that corract? 

A Corract. 

2 Lat ma gat up to tha day that you waza shot down. 
You hava dascribad tha flight to us whan wa had tha map out, 
so I won't go through that 'again. 

Hho ara tha othaz mambars of tha craw? 

A Hhan wa wara shot down that day, Hilliaa J. Cooper, 
Buzz Sawyar, and ona of tha contra radio operators and 
mysalf . 

S And do you ramambar what you had aboard? 

A Our cargo consisted of jungle boots, ammunition, RGP- 
7 ammunition, and AK-47s. 

8 Okay, was it approKimately 10,000 pounds? 
A Correct. 

9 Hhat time did the flight leave? 

A Approximately 8:00 in the morning, a little after 8. 



liNCUSSiFIED 



162 



NAn£ = 

27S8 

2759 

I 

2760 
2761 
2762 
2763 
276U 
2765 
2766 
2767 
2768 
2769 
2770 
2771 
2772 
2773 
2774 
2775 
2776 
2777 
2778 
2779 
2780 
2781 
2782 



HIR029000 



K^CUSSlEO 



PAGE 116 



i 



2 This was not to ba a night flight? 

A Ko> dftiinitaly a day flight. 

Q What tina of tha day wara you shot down? 

A It was 12:140, 12 = 38 aKactly. 

Q I am not going to dwall on this, but aftat you wara 
shot down, how long was it bafoza you wara capturad? 

A It was just about 2>4 hours. 

2 Okay, during tha pariod of tina that you wara 
imprisonad, I assuma that you wara quastionad fairly 
f raquantly? 

A Corract. 

2 Ara thara particular paopla that tha Sandinistas 
wara asking you about, about whathaz you wara involvad? 

A Thay wara ooming up with naaas naithar of us haard, 
Latin contra sida^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H their 
Dapartaant of Interior probably knaw or suspactad of 
different things. 

2 Did they ask you about Americans? 

A Thay asked Ilka Slnglaub, Saoord, anything that was 
elaborated from United States news madia or which their own 
information had. 

8 Do you remember anybody else other than Slnglaub or 
Saoezd? 

A There probably was, but Z really forget over this 
time period. 



m 



UNCIASSIFIED 



163 



Hint- 

2783 
27811 
2785 
2786 
2787 
2788 
2789 
2790 
2791 
2792 
2793 
279U 
2795 
2796 
2797 
2798 
2799 
2800 
280 1 
2802 
2803 
280t( 
2805 
2806 
2807 



1) 




HIR029000 y,^J,LMdOiriLU '*" '^ 

8 X can und«rstand. I am sorry> lat m« go back, 

anothax mattax I wantad to ask about. 

Thara was sona rapott about a maating that took 
placa around August 8 oi 1986 whara Goaaz and Madina met 
uith the craw. Vara you at that meeting? 

A August 8. It could very well be. Where was it 
supposedly to happen? 

2 It sounded to me as If it was a pep talk kind o£ 
thing . 

A There was one in House Number 3, at one time they 
came up and said, okay, the operation is closed down, pack 
your bags> it is all over with, boys. Later on, Gomez and 
rtedina came up, wall. It is back on. guys, wa got t« ba 
freedom fighters, we got to do this stuff for nothing. 
Everybody looked at him like ha was crazy. 

fi How long was it between the two meetings? 

A What do you mean? 

fi I got the impression they said, we are done. 

A This was about the same day. We were atj 
Poor Coopax. ha really want through a lot. really a 
patziotio individual, trying to turn this thing into a 
•tikuatlon that would work. 

One of his statements always was. wa are going to 
win this ona for a change, and the input that ha would get 
from his telephone calls to the States, or wherever, and the 



m.mm 



164 



iiNcussra ... 



NAHE: HIR029000 llllllal H^lalll ILIJ PAGE 118 



2808 
2809 
2810 
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281it 
2815 
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2820 
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2824 
2825 
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2830 
2831 
2832 



people he knew there, he would cone and he would try and 
tell us soaethlng, and before he knew it, it would change 
aiter he told us, so you know, he quit knocking — he was going 
orazy . 

e Did you know, you were ultimately released for 
Senator Oodd, is that correct? 

A Correct. 

fi Did you know him before? 

A That was the first time I ever met the gentleman. 

S Do you know why It was that you were released to 
him? 

A Politics. 

fi Did the Sandinistas tell you anything about why you 
were released to him? 

A No, however it happened, I don't know. 

e Old there come a time they told you you were going 
to be released? 

A They told me from the first day I was captured, I 
was going to be released. 

e Did they tell you that you would be released after a 
trial? 

A They told me there was going to be a trial. I would 
!|p found guilty. I would be released, and underneath the 
oondltions Z followed and did what they said. 

e So they told you from the very beginning that you 



UNCLASSIFIED 



165 



MAKE 

2833 
283<4 
283S 
2836 
2837 
2838 
2839 
28>40 
28i4l 
28(42 
28143 
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28(45 
28U6 
28(47 
28(48 
28149 
2850 
2851 
2852 
2853 
28514 
2855 
2856 
2857 



HIR029000 



would be r«laas«d? 



imsim 



PAGE 119 



A Yas/ i£ you could baliava on« way or tha othar what 
thay maant, yes. 

2 Okay/ is thaza anybody else who worked with you down 
there who you think it wo'uld ba helpful for us to talk to, 
who night have more information than you, or different kinds 
of information? 

A I don't like to point fingers or anything, but for 
the best of this whole thing, if you got a hold o^^^^^H 
|or^^^^^^^^^^^^ these two people could give you 
more than anybody else, because they were in charge of the 
office there more than anybody else. 

fi How about] 

A Yes, ha would ba another curious individual, because 
he is curious to ma. Ha is a stout man that was very bull- 
headed about a lot of things. Somebody else hired him, he 
would be very helpful, and it would show another light 
anyway . 

You can have that if you so desire. This last name 
I put on tha bottom, that is just where I received the H-2 

fOZB. 

ft Is there anybody else other than who you mentioned 
uko would be helpful for us to talk to? 
A They would be the main kingpins. 
2 Is there anything else you would like to tell us 



UNCLASSIFIED 



166 



NAnE = 
2858 
2859 
2860 
286 1 
2862 
2863 
2861* 
2865 
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HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 120 



about your eKpexienca that you think would ba helpful? 

A I can't think of any, unless sonebody stinulates it 
with a question or sonething. 

MR. EGGLESTOH: I think X am done with ny questions. 
HR. VAN CLEVE: Hould you like to take a three- 
minute break here, and then I have some questions. 
[ Recess . ] 

tlR. EGGLESTON: I just have a few more questions to 
ask, having just had a chance to review some notes. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 

fi You had indicated that much of your material that 
had been in your room, and of course, everything that was 
with you at the time you were shot down had been taken from 
you. How did you get this back? 

A That was left in there, because there is nothing 
really that important in there. 

fi This was left in your room? 

A That was in my briefcase, yes, the briefcase, I had 
like my passport was in there, all my tickets, general stuff 
anybody would accrue there, all those writings I had. 

e This was left behind in your room? 

A All my personal belongs were left in the room. 

fi You testified you eventually received them. 

A Yes, most of those phone numbers in there — in fact, I 
even had a phone book, so you would have access to different 



uncussihed 



I 



167 



KAME: 
2883 
288U 
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2888 
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289 1 
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2898 
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2900 
2901 
2902 
2903 
2904 
2905 
2906 
2907 



"""'"° liNiiLASSIflED "" "' 

numbers . 

e Lat ma just, while I am hare, this is Exhibit EH-6, 
and I am referring to one of the last pages, phone from USA 
to^^^^^H^^^H and it lists some numbers, this is the phone 
number oi House Number 3, and the number you read oif? 

A Correct. 

S This is the number ior Ramon? 

A Yes, this here I marked down myself, which I relayed 
to my wife, I gave her back in Hisconsin there, at any time 
if she wanted to call me direct, all you would have to do is 
phone from USA tol 
and you have Casa Number 3, and if nobody was there, the 

or you call^^^^^^^^^^^^B which 

would give you Ramon's casSi. 

That is what that is mainly for. 

fi I have understood that ^^^^^^^^^H might have 
collected some personal belongings of various people after 
the operation was closed down, after October tth. Did you 
receive anything back izod^^^H^H return anything to your 
family? 

A Hhan Z came home myself after this, there was a 
oouvla boxes in my house that was delivered, and it just had 
■y address on it with SAI stickers on it, and it was back 
there, all my personal belongings, except when Z went 
through my attache case, I was curious about these phone 



UNCLASSIFIED 



168 



NAnE = 
2908 
2909 
2910 
2911 
2912 
2913 
291U 
2915 
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292i( 
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HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 122 



nunbacs lika Langton and tha numbers Coopar gave me, which 
tuxnad out to ba all SAT numbats, stui^ Ilka that. 

fi They are all gone? 

A Yas, and my ratuxn tiekats^^^^^^Hto Miami was 
gone . 

2 I had asked you, and you have testified about 
signing a contxaot with Corporate Air Services . Where did 
that signing take place? 

A It was in a restaurant somewhere in Miami. 

e Who was present? 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H C o o p e r 
Okay, you,^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Ball 
contracts at tha same tlma? 

A Correct. 

S This was sometime in tha period between July 7 and 
July 9 o£ 1936? 

A Yes, I would say that was July 8, and there was--it 
was redone back again inl 

fi It is my understanding that Southern Air Transport 
was making eight flights of non-military aid down to 

[did that happen during tha course of the time you 
■•z* thaxa? 

A I don't recall or remember any such thing. The only 
thing Z ramambar about Southern Air Transport doing anything 
was malntananoa on tha aircraft. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



I 



169 



NAME: 

2933 
293i( 
2935 
2936 
2937 
2938 
2 9 39 
29U0 
29141 
29M2 
29U3 
29M<4 
29t4S 
29>46 
2947 
2948 
291(9 
2950 
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2952 
2953 
295it 
2955 
2956 
2957 



HIR029000 



weussw 



PAGE 123 



Llka I said, that yet was being replaced, because it 
had a bird strj.ke it in the air, sb they had to replace a 
jet. That (is why that was there and the communications 
equipment, stuff like that on it. 

8 You don't recall Southern Air Transport ever flying 
down directly? 

A No, I do not. It Has never there. I know Southern 
Air Transport came in there, because at one time, to bring, 
oh, there was a couple, like an extra engine, a bunch of 
o^her parts, and some other stuff they brought down there 
earlier, a C-130 flew in there and dropped off some of the 
equipment. 

2 That was before you were there? 

A nuch before I was Ihere, yes. 

2 During the period of time that you were there, was 
the plantation still being developed or had they already 
decided to abandon the plantation? 

A No, it was already abandoned by the time I got 
there. ^ 

2 Do you know where the funding came from for the 
plantation, anything about the development of the 
plantation, whose idea it was? 

A The only thing I heard, that it belonged to some 
Amexloan. That was the only thing, the real estate itself. 

2 You don't know who the American was? 



'r 




170 



KANE 

2958 
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29614 
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HIR029000 



Ko 



>^>msim 



PAGE 12U 



fi Lat na ask you about tha annunition boxas> the 
■llltary boxas. wara thay in any languaga othaz than 
English, 

A No, to tha bast of ay knowladga. I hava navar saan 
any boxas that coiia out with actually English written on 
than saying, wall, this is hand granadas; all nuitbers, color 
codings, diifarant things on diffarant boxas saying, okay, 
lika it night ba, whatavar tha nuabar is ior f ragmantation 
gzanada. 

It is on thara, plus lika a littla gray, with a 
black and a yallow stripa on it. This dasignatas hand 
granadas, iragmantatlon typa. 

2 Did you know a nan by tha nana o£ Charlas Tyson? 

A Tyson? 

fi Oo you know a man by that nana? 

A Tyson rings a vary good ball. 

HR. PLEGER: Thara is a Donald Tyson with tha 
Embassy in Managua. 

BY HR. KGGIESTONi 

fi Did you know him bafora you wara shot down? 

A Ko, Embassy Counsal. 

fi Hon about Sam Hatazs. is that a familiar nama? 

A Ko, it is not. 

fi Tha gasollna, gassing up thasa planas was a constant 



Uh 



171 



KAnE = 
2983 
298M 
2985 
2986 
2987 
2988 
2989 
2990 
2991 
2992 
2993 
299M 
2995 
2996 
2997 
2998 
2999 
3000 
3001 
3002 
3003 
300U 
3005 
3006 
3007 



.iUL 




HIR029000 y I f WWt l^**^"" PAGE 125 

lequizetient . Uheza did you obtain tha gasolin* to gas up 
th« planes? 

A Gas was obtained] 
It was purchased pez flight. 

Q Who actually did the purchasing? 

A Ramon or Max Gonez would actually pay for it. 

2 Paying cash? 

A Paying cash for it. 

e Were there ever tines when they got the gas on 
credit? 

A X have heard there night have been, yes, but it 
wasn't a thing that they allow. 

2 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H wan ted to in 

A Correct, if you didn't have the cash, no gas. 

Q But the people who made the purchases would either 
be Gonez or Ranon? 

A Correct. 

2 How about Rafael Quintero? 

A No, that wasn't his gane down there. That was 
mainly Ramon, that was their job. 

fi On each occasion, would they be the ones who would 
•fpeaz with the cash to pay? 

A I never say anybody come across and pay anybody any 
money. 

2 Do you know where^^^^^^^^^V^s? 



MMim 



172 



NXHE: 
3008 
3009 
3010 
301 1 
3012 
3013 
301(t 
3015 
3016 
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HIR029000 



U.i\iL 



ASSIFIED 



PAGE 126 



A I bftliava ha livas in Gaorgla ot sonawhara down 
south. Ha is a xatixad warrant ofiicar o£ tha Unitad Statas 
Aray- Ha was. in parachuta rigging, stuff lika that. ^^^^H 



I navar got his addrass. Thara is othar paopla's I 



hava . 



Q ^^^^H was thara whan you got thara. 

A Corract. 

2 Do you know whan^^^^H axrivad? 

A No, but I baliava ha was thara bafora Coopar and 
avarything. Ha was thara for quita a whila. 

e naaning as aarly as tha baginning of 1986? 

A This could ba> I couldn't put a diract tiaa on it. 

2 How long aftar you' got thara did ha laava? 

A I baliava ha laft tha baginning of August, somewhara 
in that tiiia pariod. 

2 Hhat was his job again? 

A Ha was mainly according to Coopar hirad through Gadd 
as a riggar, aainly, but ha flaw on tha aircraft. 

MR. PLEGER: You said that you saw color coding and 
nuBbars on thasa boxas . I am not sura whathar you said you 
SAy no words, English, or othar words on tha box? 

HR. HASEKPUS: It Bight say nuabars lika lot, lika 
all Bilitary. Evarything goas off nuabar. Thara is navar a 
naaa for it. Evarything is by nuabar. If you don't know 



ONCIASSIHED 



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NAME: 

3033 
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30*46 
30M7 
30U8 
30149 
3050 
3051 
3052 
30S3 
305<4 
3055 
3056 
3057 



HIR029000 



yNCiASsra 



PAGE 127 



tha nunber, you ara lost. 

HR. PL£G£R: All right. 

BY HR. VAM CLEVE: 
2 L«t m« start by saying ua apptaciata tha fact that 
you ara willing to ba halpful to us . I will try not to maka 
this any longar than it naads to ba . Hr . Egglaston has 
covarad a fair anount of ground ua would want to want, but 
thara ara a iaw additional quastions by way of clarification 
that I would lika to ask. 

Taking you back to aarly July 1986, I ballava that 
it was your tastimony that you flaw to Hiaai on your way 
down to^^^^^^^^^^^ps 

A Yas, froB narinatta, Wisconsin, via Graan &ay. to 



niani 
& 
A 
2 



You wara sat at tha airport by Bill Coopar? 
Yas. 

If X undarstood you corractly. shortly aftar that, 
you had a naating with Hr . Coopar .j^^^^^^^^^H and anothar 
individual? 

^^^^^^H||Hcama in on anothar 
^^^Hcama in on anothar flight, but wa didn't itaat hin at 
thm airport, baeausa wa nissad hin. Wa nat him back at fha 
Holiday Inn. 

2 Sonatlaa aftar that, you want out to a rastaurant? 
A Yas, wa want out and had dinnar, a coupla aftar- 



Mimim 



174 



UNCLASSIFIED 



KAHE: HIR029000 Ulllll HalBllrtril PAGE 128 



3058 
3059 
3060 
3061 
3062 
3063 
306K 
3065 
3066 
3067 
3068 
3069 
3070 
3071 
3072 
3073 
307U 
3075 
3076 
3077 
3078 
3079 
3080 
3081 
3082 



dinnar drinks > and stuff. 

S Has this tha sama day that you raachad Miami? 

A No.^^Hand I and Bill talked for a whila . Latar on 
in that avaninS/ wa mat up at tha Holiday Inn> top floor, 
had a small lata snack and talkad a littla bit; and tha naxt 
day> wa all want out to Southern Air Transport and wa 
minglad around, and Bill was asking us what wa naadad on tha 
aircraft . 

e Has it that day or tha day bafora that you signed 
tha contracts with Corporate Air Services? 

A I got there the 7th, so that would be the 8th. 

e After you went to Southern Air Transport, you went 
out together again? 

A Throughout the next day, we had breakfast, lunch and 
dinner together, yes. 

fi Hhat I wanted to do, you went to dinner and it was 
at that point that Cooper asked you to sign contracts with 
Corporate Air Services? 

A Yes, at one of tha lunches, I believe lunch on July 
8 that would have been. 

fi Okay, can you tell us again, so X have this clear in 
■y Bind, exactly what was said to you about who it was you 
M«za going to be working for? 

A Re said, tha exact word out his mouth, coming out 
exactly like we worked before with Air America which we 



UNCUSSIHED 



175 



NAHE: 
3083 
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3105 
3106 
3107 



HIR029000 



UNCUSSIHED 



PAGE 129 



worked all govaxnment, under difiarant contracts, and he 
said it is tha sai»a thing. 

Wa are working directly right hare for the U.S. 
Govarnnant. Ha didn't specify or anything. Ha says it is 
right for the White House, everything is right out of there, 
because^^^^Und I both reiterated ourselves on this a couple 
of tines, to naka sure who we were really working for and 
knowing Bill for a long time, I had a lot of trust in him, 
and working, SAT being in there again, it seened to all fit 
together, ti.a sane picture. 

2 I see. I appreciate that, and if I understood you 
correctly. Cooper told you that tha paperwork with Corporate 
Air Services as a front, cane right out front? 

A Yes, as a front, definitely yes. 

8 That was his statement? 

A Yes. 




176 










...K^^® 



UW. kiv>1 



177 



KAME: 
3155 
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3159 
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3161 
3162 
3163 
316« 
3165 
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3167 
3168 
3169 
3170 
3171 
3172 
3173 
317U 
3175 
3176 
3177 
3178 
3179 



• J . , 



DCHK STEVENS 

S li X understood you coxzectly, you said that on 
SAvazal occasions Willian Cooper told you that the operation 
that he worked in was being directly run out oi the White 
House? 

A Correct. 

e Did he ever say ''I just got a phone call from the 
White House' ' ? 

A He never cane out and made any bold statements like 
that, no. 

2 Sid he ever say ''I have got orders from the Hhite 
House' • ? 

A No , he never said' that, no. 

2 Did he ever say ''Our friends in the Hhite House 
want us to do this or to do that'*? 

A No. 

2 Did he ever show you any kind of paper that he 
suggested was instructions from the Hhite House? 

A Hhatever came in and how we ever operated through 
his scrambler or whoever he talked to, he kept quite well to 
hlBself. He did a good job on that, I would say. 

Hheza it all came from, who exactly these addresses 
were likely will reiterate would come from these phone 
numbers a lot of them. Hhat tfiAt would actually mean, I 



uKii 




178 



NAME: 
3180 
3181 
3182 
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318M 
3185 
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3200 
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JliiJl- 




HIR029000 "'^iiL H i«iirlrJI ^'^^^ ^^^ 

don't know eithex. 

fi Sure. But he never said anything to you? 

A He never cane out and said directly on that is a 
presidential order, no. he never said anything like that. 

8 He never gave you any specifics at all? He made 
statements like the ones you describe, but he never gave you 
specifics that you could tell us? 

A Whatever he had there he wouldn't come out and tell 
us anything directly like this phone call that came from 
this individual here or this parson, he just made mention to 
keep us in confidence that we were working for our 
government. 

8 Okay. Have you known hin for a fairly long time? 

A I have known him since 1966. 

8 Do you have any reason to think that he would keep 
information from you? 

A If it had anything to do with our life, he would 
not keep it. He would help us the best way he could, but 
any other involvement in this operation to keep it going, 
you know, he would protect that operation to the best he 
could. That would be not giving us any of this information 
unless it would be on a very ''to know'* basis. 

8 Okay. Did he ever, wile you were down in Central 
America, have contact with anyone that you thought was an 
employee of the Central Intelligence Agency? 



mm\m 



179 



NAHE: 

320S 
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3223 
322<4 
3225 
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3229 



HIR029000 



liiicmssro 



PAGZ 13U 



A No> th«rtt was no dizact contact with us. Like I 
say> ovar thaza thara was tha iiilitazy group, many paopla 
running around. ^^^^^^^H^i^ itself is a fairly good size, 
not a huge air base or anything but tha amount of Americans 
in it stood out and especially your embassy, they really 
stood out. 

fi But in tarns of your work and your operation, did 
you have any contact with them? 

A Nobody would coma near our group, the military 
group would drive by and probably nod a head or something, 
but, no, you know, a C-130 from the National Guard would fly 
by or C-llls would fly by, they could sea us loading them 
and they would look out like somebody would wave back, but 
as far as any CIA agent coming out and making any direct 
contact with us — if one did, I wouldn't know who it was 
really, though. 

2 Sure. Okay. If I recall correctly, you were 
captured by tha Nicaraguan forces on October 6, 1986, is 
that right? 

A Caught by, captured by tha Sandinistas. 

S By tha government forces. 

A Yes. 

e October 6, 1986. 

A Correct. 

e Okay. And you ware released when? 



ICUSSIflEfl 



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HARE: 
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3251 



HIR029000 



Ui 



Decenbez 17. 



imm 



PAGE 135 



fi So you were held, i£ my azithnatic is right, about 
two-and-a-half months? 

A Y«s. 

2 Can you tall us uheza you were held? 

A I was held — starting off it was at El Caipote . I^ 
got it written down here. El Caipote prison right in 
Managua. 0£ course, it is very close security prison where 
they don't let you even see daylight. 

I was held there until the latter part oi October which I 
was. when a trial started ior the tribunal. Then X was 
transferred over to Potopa prison. 

S In general terms, how ware you treated during your 
confinement? 

A Later on in confinement I was given a separate cell 
to myself which they made especially, it was an office and 
they turned it into a cell. Not an office as we know 
offices, but that was it. I was put in with another Luther, 
Joseph Luther, who also carried an American passport. 

X believe he was a double agent myself. But they took 
care of ma to a pretty good degree. They wanted any contact 
that I made with any media or anybody else to be favorable. 

Sociologically, they set me up much different than any 
other prisoner would have been set up. 

fi Hera you ever physically thzaatenad in any way 



IMASSIflEO 



181 



HARE: 
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HIR029000 



umssm 



PAGE 136 



during youx coniinemant. 



A Only in tha baglnnlng. 

fi Could you elaborate? 

A When I was first captured, a lot of then threatened 
they would kill ne on the spot and things like this. But 
that goes without saying really. 

Later on when I was brought into Managua, the army 
had ma first--their first questioning period cane by then and 
they played the gane pretty rough the first day, but later 
on, naybe 2:00 or 3=00 in the norning, they slacked off and 
they started getting a little nore huaane and they just sat 
down and talked then. 

C When you say they played pxatty rough, could you be 
a little more specific? 

A Hell, when you were first brought in there you were 
handcuffed, as tight as they could get than behind your 
back, you were told not to nove and if you novad a little 
they would cone and stoiip on your toes and stuff like that. 
You had to look at the celling and if you twisted your eyes 
they would kick you and stuff Ilka that. And you would have 
to answer questions and this went for hours. 

Otherwise, you have have to stand against the wall, 
o<i balance with your head on the wall. At one point I had 
to have the handcuffs loosened because I would have lost 
fingers or sonething because tha circulation was cut off. 



UKCUSSiHEO 



182 



uNcussra 



NAHE: HIR029000 I lllUI-niJLlI I llvU PAGE 137 



3280 
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3295 
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3298 
3299 
3300 
3301 
3302 
3303 
330M 



Thay were so tight I thought they would have to cut then off 
bttcause you have to nake then go tighter before they 
release . 

But as I say, sone tine in the morning, whatever 
tine it was, that ceased. Whatever happened there 
politically, if something else cane in and told them not to 
do it any nore or what, I don't know. 

e During the tine you were confined, were there any 
other types of threats nade against you or your fanily or 
anything like that? 

A No. There was never no threats. The only threats 
that were made if you don't cooperate with us you will get 
30 years or nore, you know, we can't be responsible for 
different things like this'. 

fi What did cooperation nean? 

A You either go along and say what they want, in 
content, or you are going to stay here, you are ours. You 
know, that is duress, really, what it is. 

e Did they tell you what they wanted you to say? 

A When I Hxota out this statement that I have here, 
there is parts — 

ft Let the record show that the witness is referring 
to oomalttee exhibit number 2. 

A It is my handwritten one. They were coaching all 
the way through, you axe going to say it thi'S way, this is 



UNCUSSinED 



183 



H\nt- 

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HIR029000 



mmm 



PAGE 138 



the way ue want it said, different things like that. Like 
when you would say ua dropped, then the words have to be put 
in there that you were dropping to the eneny, you know, of 
the Sandinista government known as the FDH and stuff like 
that. 

That was put in there so when the statement was put 
in there it was very clerical. 

(2 So they told you specifically what they wanted you 
to say in that confession itself? 

A Yes. 

2 Would you say — could I have it? 

You feel we don't have a very legible copy of this 
exhibit, but it runs about four pages. 

A When it came out 'to words like CIA, they had to be 
in there in bold print, they wanted that stuff. 

2 How much of this statenent were you told to put in 
before you signed it? Roughly, half of what is in here 
maybe? 

A A good one-quarter of the text had to be worded 
this way as they said. The rest is fill from start to 
finish. 

fi I understand. Including specific references to 
dxop zones? 

A To the drop zones and CIA. Air America was really, 
you know, it was really brought put and flaunted quite well 



USSIFIED 



184 



OnClASSIFIED 



NAME: HIR029000 Lll lULnLllJl I ll_U PAGE 139 



3330 
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33m 
33i«2 
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3314 
33U5 
33M6 
3347 
33U8 
3349 
3350 
3351 
3352 
3353 
3354 



bacause beiora I uxota some of this stuff, sone of it, Mike 
Hallaca had his field day with me. I never had a chance. 
Ha was the first American I really had a chance to sit down 
and talk to. Donald Tyson sat across like you and I for a 
matter of a few minutes, but ha couldn't say anything and I 
couldn't say anything. 

So when Hike Wallace came in we more or less talked 
a little bit and he sounded like I am going to really help 
you, let's get something going and he got out there and 
really pounded on me and caught me off guard and I didn't 
know what I was saying really. 

Injbetween this, these guys said this is what you 
are going to more or less say, and it will involve tha CIA 
and Hallaca didn't help me' a little bit. If you watched 
Sixty Minutes, what ha is saying you can just about — he asked 
me a question and answered it at the same time. He just 
followed suit. 

e So if I understand your testimony correctly, it is 
that tha substance of tha confession that you prepared and 
signed while you ware in prison was essentially dictated to 
you by tha Nloaraguan authorities; is that correct? 

A Coxzect. 

MR. PLEGER: Hay I clarify this. Gene? You mean 
tha substance of it ox the way things ware worded ox cextain 
things thay insisted to include just so that wa axe oleax. 



ifimim 



185 



NAME: 

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HIR029000 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 1<40 



HR. VAN CLEVE: I understand. 

THE WITNESS: What I an talking about hsxa is 
dlxactly when we would come to a point I would say it out 
and start writing, they would say this is the way it should 
be printed. So there would be changes that way, like, yes, 
this was definitely to the opposite tean, the FDH, who are 
our enemies and stuff like this, so that was put in there 
that I was dropping material that was in direct difference 
to them. 

BY HR. VAN CLEVE: 

S And specific references to the activities of the 
CIA and connections with various individuals and so on? 

A Yes, like when Air America was brought into It, it 
couldn't be Air America, I't had to be CIA, I couldn't just 
say Air America. 

Q You are free now and your only obligation before 
the committee today is to respect the oath that you took 
when you began your appearance here. Is there any statement 
that you made either in this confession or while you were in 
prison in Nicaragua that you would like to explain or re- 
consider or for that matter take back completely? 

A There is nothing I said to you gentlemen here that 
I Mould change or take back at all. 

fi I am referring to the statements you made while you 
were in prison. 



iiNCiHuoirlED 



186 



KAHE 

3380 
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3385 
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HIR029000 



iJNClASSIFIED 



PAGE 1(41 



A Statements that I made in prison, some oi this we 
went right through the tribunal and they came across and 
asked if this statement was true going through the tribunal 
and I reiterated that some of this stuff was hearsay. There 
is court records on that. 

Like, okay, that Medina worked--that I knew 
personally that he worked for the CIA and stuff like that, 
they were trying to get that across. In the tribunal in my 
part I was asked a few times like, okay, who directly issued 
these 10 cards? 




Everything was changed around purposefully for the 
greatest propaganda thing they could put out. 

fi I believe you were asked earlier whether you had 
•v«r met Senator Sodd before your release. 

A That was the first time I ever met the man. 

e If I understood you correctly and I was surprised 
by this, I wanted to be sure I heard you correctly, you 



iiNCUSSIFIED 



187 



NAME: 
3it05 
31106 

3U07 
3<408 
3t<09 
3(«10 
31411 
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31113 
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31415 
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3«417 
314I8 
3U19 
3(420 
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3U26 
3i427 
3(428 
3(429 



HIR029000 



UNCIASSIFIED 



PAGE 1>42 



tastliied that you wera told pcetty much from the beginning 
of your ooniinement that you waxa going to be released as 
long as you cooperated with the authorities: is that 
oorrect? 

A That is what they told me. You can take that as a 
psychological thing or any way they wanted to use it on me. 

S Before you were released did there ever come a time 
when officials came to you and told you specifically ue plan 
to release you? 

A There was times, there were times they played many 
psychological games on me. Up in my cell many times many 
high ranking officers would come up and they would all take 
a look at their special subject inside and they would not 
really say much or anything and they would take me different 
places and pull silly games on me > psychological games. You 
didn't know sometimes they were taking you off to shoot you 
or what. You never knew when you stepped out a vehicle when 
you talked with other people, and it got a little scary at 
times . 

e Here you ever specifically told that that might 
happen? 

A They said accidents could happen, very much so. 

fi If Z remember correctly, you said you were released 
on December 17. 



VNCUSGirlED 



188 



NAHE: 

3(430 
3M31 
3<432 
3433 
3U3U 
3((35 
3U36 
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314(42 
3(4(43 
3141414 
3(445 
3(4(46 
3(4(47 
314148 
3(4(49 
31450 
3M51 
3(452 
3(453 
3(45(4 




HIR029000 ^"*^L/^'\ V/ir//*A'*°^ ^^^ 

S Of last yaar. 

A Yes. 

fi When did you actually find out you wexe going to be 
released? 

A Decenbex 17. 

S Right before it happened? 

A Just about at the sane tine they were releasing me, 
that is when I found out. 

fi You had no warning? 

A Ko warning or anything. Hhat happened earlier that 
Borning naybe about a half hour before I actually knew this, 
the connander fxon Tippatopa himself came up there and he 
was talking about something and what was said was, okay> 
Luther told me that he was' saying within two weeks you are 
going to be definitely released. It was set up so you can 
plan on that. I figured it was a bunch of talk. Then he 
left and like Z say it was about US minutes later on he cane 
back up again which surprised me, all of a sudden he said 
something to Luther in Spanish and he said you are leaving 
now, grab all your belongings. So that is how much of a 
surprise it was. Next thing I knew I was going through the 
ewcxldoxs to his car and into Managua. 

8 So the Nlcaraguan officials were oomnunicating to 
you through the other inmate? 

A Nobody there at Tippatopa spoke English but Luther, 



UNCUSSIHED 



189 



NAHE: 

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3(467 
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3(469 
3(470 
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3(473 
3H7H 
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3«479 



HIR029000 



uNcussra 



PAGE 1(4(4 



the individual that was ny cell aate, he spoke pretty good 
English and Spanish very well, so he would translate for ma. 

e So they would tell him something and he would tell 
you what they said? 

A Yes. 

e Has there ever an interpreter present or did they 
almost always work through this individual? 

A The only time there was an interpreter present was 
when most of the — oi the higher echelon Sandinistas would 
come and see me. They had their own Interpreters with them, 
military intarpzaters . 

fi Did any of the Nicazaguan oiiicials ever ask you to 
agree to make certain statements after you returned to the 
United States as a condition of your release from prison? 

A Ko. they didn't, no. 

2 Do you feel as though you have any obligation at 
all to the Nioazaguans in any way? 

A No. Z don't believe I do. 

e Okay. Is there anything else you would like to 
tell the oommittea about youz confinement in Nicaragua and 
youz tzaatment by the Nicazaguans, court proceedings, 
•aythlng like that that you might like foz the committee to 
feaeirr 

A Hell, evezybody, Z am quite suze. zemembers the 
court pzooeedings. They weza pzetty well publicized through 




190 



NAME: 
3148O 
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3X93 
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3(496 
3(497 
3(498 
3(499 
3500 
3501 
3502 
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HIR029000 



liNClASSira 



PAGE 1(45 



this wholtt thing and it was pretty ona way. Everybody knows 
that. I don't think there is anything to talk about there. 

Then being confined in the beginning, like I said, at the 
first prison in Hanagua, things were kept vary well and they 
played their psychological genes with me and tried to do 
different things but basically they treated me with enough ' 
respect after they got to now me as one individual probably 
would treat another one. but I was given better treatment 
than any other prisoner there for the point being that if 
they were to abuse ma enough there would be no sense, they 
would lose this point that they wanted to get across to make 
points around the world for their whole shot at this deal. 

Q Did you have any conversations with Senator 
Dodd--you were released into his custody; is that how it 
happened? I recall reading about it in the newspaper, but I 
don't know what actually happened. 

A Yes, we were released into his custody there. 
There was really no conversations. He didn't ask any — when 
we left there by his aircraft into Guatemala, he didn't ask 
any political questions or anything. He was just sort of 
happy to get us out of there. He didn't make any statements 
•t all. 

e Okay. So you really didn't have any conversation 
with him about what had happened while you were in prison? 

A Ko. he didn't get into anything like that really. 



iiCLASSIFIED 



191 



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3528 



HIR029000 

2 Okay. 




m 



PAGE 1<46 



HR. VAN CLEVE: Thank you vary much. I appreciate 
your courtesy and your helpfulness. 

HR. EGGLESTOK: Thank you, Hr . Hasenf us . 

THE WITNESS: The only question I have is will I be 
called again to come down? Will there be future things? 

MR. EGGLESTON: Actually, I guess the deposition is 
over, you can go. 

MR. PLE6ER: May I make a request on the record for 
a copy of the transcript, not at our expense, of course. 

MR. EGGLESTON:' On that issue I just have not 
looked at the rules. I think the rules provide something 
about whether you get one or not. I am sure it is in the 
rules. I don't have any discration one way or the other. 

MR. PLEGER: Someone will let us know. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Yes. 

MR. PLEGER: With respect to reimbursement for the 
expenses for these folks and my own expenses, again, you are 
the man? 

MR. EGGLESTON: i think I am the man. 

HR. PLEGER: He send the bills directly to you? 

HR. EGGLESTON: i just won't give you my home 
•4dzess . 
[Hhezeupon, at 1:20 p.m. the deposition was adjourned.] 



iitfoUSOT 



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STKNOGRAPmC lONUTSB 
Uanvtoad sad UMdttod 
Not Dar QMtatloa or 
DopUcattoa 



UNCLASSIFIED 



..^^^ 



Cominittee Hearlnffi 

oftlM 

V3, HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 



W 



'"W^I'V Declassifieil/Reteased onJ^JrtiiSS' 
unaef provisions o( E 12355 
"V K Joftnsofl. Nanonal Sacurity Council 



inx 



OmCB OP THB CXXBS 
Offlco of Official Baportefs 



rS,r-\ 




(193) 



3h^, 



194 



195 



li ^^ 



KAHE: HIR19(|002 




RPTS SULLIVAN 
DCHN SULLIVAK 

DEPOSITION OF JONATHAN JACOB HIRTLE 

Monday, July 13, 1987 

House o£ Representatives, 
Select Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washington, D.C. 



The select committee met, pursuant to call, at 5:3i« p.m. 
in room B-352, Cannon House Office Building, with Thomas 
Fryman presiding. 



Pamally Oeclassitied/ReleaseO on ^ J/9N 6S 
under orovisions o( E 12356 
by K Johnson. Nalional Sscuniy Council 



UNCLASSIFIED 



(195) 



196 



UNCussra 



KAHE: HIR19U002 UlllJI_flUljll IkU PAGE 



On behali oi the House Select Conmittee = Thomas Fryman, 
staff counsel) R. Spencer Oliver, associate staff; Bill 
Davis, investigator; and Kenneth R. Buck, assistant minority 
counsel . 

On behalf of the witness: Ralph K. Albright, Jr., 
Buchanan Xngersoll, 1667 K Streets N.W., Washington, D.C. 
20006 



UNCLASSIFIED 



197 



UNliLA55IMtU 



NAME: 

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HIR194002 PAGE 3 

MR. FRYMAN: Okay, uould you sueaz th« witness? 

Whftzaupon, 

JONATHAN JACOB HIRTLE 
was callad ioz as a witnass and, having b«an duly sworn, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAHINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COHHITTEE = 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 

Would you state youz iull nana ior the record? 

Jonathan Jacob Hirtle. 

And, Mr. Hirtle, what is your occupation? 

Securities broker. 

And by what coapany ara you enployad? 

Goldnan, Sachs. 

Hhara ara you enployad? 

Philadelphia. 

What is your position there? Hhat is your title 



S 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 
2 
A 
2 

there? 
A 
2 
A 



Vice president, securities sales. 

And how long have you held that position? 

I was promoted to vice pzasldant about three months 



ago. 

S How long have you worked ior Goldnan, Sachs? 

A riva years. 

2 And throughout that period, have your 
responsibilities generally baan In the area of sales oi 



UNGLASSIHED 



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HIR19U002 



securities? 



untussra 



PAGE U 



A Yes. 

2 Uere you in the securities business before Goldman, 
Sachs ? 

A Mo. 

S What were you doing before then? 

MR. ALBRIGHT: Off the record. 

[Discussion off the record.! 

MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 

BY HR. FRYMAK: 
C Here you in the Military prior to joining Goldman, 
Sachs? 

A Yes. 

e And you were in the Marine Corps? 
A Yes. 

2 And prior to service in the Marine Corps, were you 
in school? 

A Yes. 

S And where did you obtain your undergraduate degree? 

A Penn State . 

fi And what year was that? 

A Graduated in 197U. 

S And do you have a graduate degree? 

A Yes. 

e In what fiald? 



UNClASSiFIED 



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NBA in iinancA. 

And uhara did you obtain that dagzaa? 

Penn State. 

rtr . Hirtle, do you Know a gentleman named Clyde 



HIR19((002 
A 
fi 
A 

Slease ? 

A Yes. 

S Hou do you knou him? 

A I mat hi»--ha uoiked ioz a client, and I met him 
personally then. He lives near my home in western 
Pennsylvania, and I have known hia for three years. 

S You mat him connection with his work for a client 
of yours at Goldman, Sachs? 

A Yes. 

2 And who is your client? 

A Richard Scaifa. 

2 And what did you understand Mr. Slease 's 
professional relationship with rtr. Scaife to be? 

A Personal counsel. 

2 And you say you have known Mr. Slease for 
approximately three years? 

A Correct. 

2 Kow you say you have homes near each other in 
wastarn Pennsylvania? 

A Where I was raised in western Pennsylvania. My 
parents live--it's near where he lives now. 



minssw 



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KANE: HXR194002 ||1«||| HuUII li*"' PAGE 6 



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Q That's in tha Pittsbuigh ataa? 

A Yes. 

2 But you havft uoxkad in Philadelphia for the past 
three years? 

A Yes. 

2 Have you spent periods oi time in western 
Pennsylvania where you have seen Hr . Slease? 

A I do quite a bit oi business in western 
Pennsylvania, so I travel there quite often. 

2 And do you see Hr . Slease iron tine to tine on 
these trips to that area? 

A Yes. 

2 And you consider hia a personal friend? 

A Yes. 

2 Is he also a client of yours? 

A He is. 

2 Now did there come a time when he contacted you 
about soliciting funds for use in connection with Nicaragua! 

A I think it's unfair to say ha contacted me. In 
other words, we were in a conversation about Nicaragua, and 
the situation arose . 

2 When did that conversation take place? 

A I would estimate August of — or July or August of 
1985. 

2 What do you recall that he said to you? 



UHOftSSW 



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mu 

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HiRiguooa 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 



A Simply that if I was intetested in Nicaragua, that 
ha had peopla who ueie vary knowledgeable about tha 
situation and be glad to introduce me to then. 

Q Where did this conversation occur? 

A I thinK that conversation occurred on the 
telephone . 

2 How did the subject o£ Nicaragua come up in this 
conversation? 

A There was a front page article in the New York 
Tines about General Singlaub. and it was just a topical 
discussion. 

2 Did you raise the subject? 

A I nay have. I don't ramaBber. 

2 Now you recall that ha said that ha knew people who 
ware knowledgeable on tha subject? 

A Yes. 

2 What else did he say? 

A I don't recall. I nean ha nay have said something 
about nonay, but I don't rananbar that ha said something 
about money at tha time. 

2 Hall> did ha ask you to do anything? 

A No. 

2 Did ha ask you to meat with anyone? 

A What basically happened is that at soma point we 
did discuss raising money > and than he — X said to him that I 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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HIR19I4002 



uutikssm 



PAGE 8 



don't want to raise money until I an fully--ieel comioztable 
that I an iully auare of what's going on; X want to be more 
aware; I want to be briefed on the situation; and then he 
said, ''Uell, if you need to be briefed,'' you know, ''I'll 
hook you up directly with the people who know the most.'' 

2 On how aany occasions did you discuss this subject 
with Mr. Slease? 

A Half a dozen, I'd say. 

2 Here they all on the phone, or were sone face to 
face? 

A All but one, I believe, was on the phone. He was 
in Philadelphia one tine, and we had a drink and discussed 
it. 

2 Okay. Kow can you distinguish each of these six 
conversations, or do they flow together in terms of the 
subject matter of the conversations? 

A They flow together. 

2 So at some point in these six conversations the 
question of raising money came up. 

A I would say early. You know, before the second 
meeting tha question of money came up. and I would say that 
the six meetings really is my estimation of how much — how 
many conversations I had with Terry between the time I first 
got involved and the time that the whole thing fell apart, 
and so I talked to him six times, and we talked about it 



i 



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HIR19U002 



every time. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 9 



2 All right. And the first conversation was in July 
or August oi 1985, to the best of your recollection. 

A Right. 

2 And when was the last conversation? 

A He called me when he was called before the 
committee and said that he thought I might be called, so I 
mean I've talked to him recently about it. 

2 And you consider that call one of the six? 

A Yes. 

2 Approximately six. 

A Hm-mm. 

2 Apart from that call, when was the last time you 
discussed it? 

A I would say October of last year. 1 was 
discussing-- 

HR. ALBRIGHT: i think that answers the question. 
THE WITNESS: Okay. 
BY HR. FRYMAH: 

2 So there were appxoxlnately five or six discussions 
with Hr . Sleastt on this subject between July or August of 
1985 and approximately October of 1986? 

A Yes. 

2 And the first discussion was just prompted, you 
believe, by your reading an article in the newspaper about 



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HIR194002 



General Singlaub? 



pussm 



PAGE 10 



A Correct. 

2 And in that conversation Hr . Slease indicated that 
he had some knowledge about the subject oi Nicaragua and 
kneu people who were acre knowledgeable than he was about 
it. Is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

8 And then, shortly after the first conversation, if 
it did not occur in the first conversation, he indicated to 
you that — or he raised with you the subject of raising money 
with regard to Nicaragua. Is that correct? 

A Yes. 

8 And he asked you to assist in raising money? 

A I think I might have said something like, ''Well, 
who's raising the money? I'll be glad to help.'' and he 
said . ' ' Fine . ' ' 

8 Did he say he was raising money himself? 

A Hell. I'm not sure I understand the Implications of 
''raising money.'* I don't think he was sending money 
himself, and I don't know that — in other words, I think he 
was involved in introducing people who might give money to 
people who were raising money; let's put it that way. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: I think, Hr . Fryman, you may want 
the witness to understand that he shouldn't guess or 
speculate. I mean he's here to tell you what ha knows of 



uNcu^sra 



205 



. iiNcussro 



NAHI> HZX19i(002 lllllll_nUUII ■>"*^ P&6X 11 

221* his own ptrsonal knowlsdg*, and Z don't think It's falz to 

225 mik th* ultnass to guaas oz sp«culftt« about th«s* things. 

226 HR. rHYHAK' Wall, I don't think ay quastion did 

227 ask hla to guass or spaculata. 

228 BY HR. rkYHAN' 

229 e I'b zaally asking you what Hz. Slaasa told you that 

230 ha was doing. 

23 1 A Tazzy navaz actually told ma that ha was — I navaz 

232 was in a naatlng with hla whaza ha talkad to anybody about 

233 zalsing aonay, and — but ha did tall aa that ha had aaatings 
23i( whaza ha told aa — whaza ha talkad to paopla about zalsing 

235 aonay. So — 

236 e And In ona oi tha aazly eenvazsatlons ha askad you 

237 to zalsa aonay? 

238 A Yas. 

239 fi Now what did ha tall you about tha usa to ba aada 
2)iO of iunds that ha was asking you to zalsa? 

241 A Ha was not zaally vazy spaolilo about that, and 

2<«2 slnca — ha lait that up to lataz convazsatlons. and so ha did 

243 not — ha was not spaolilo about that. 

244 a Did ha aantlonj 

245 A Ha did not. 

246 fi Hhan you say ha lait that up to othaz paopla, do 

247 you aaan othaz paopla that ha was azzanglng to aaat with 

248 you? 



UNCUSSIHED 



206 



UNCLASSIHEO 



KAnE: HIR19I40O2 IJIl Ul-niJlJl I ILIJ ''AGE 12 



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A Yes. 

2 Did ha specify any goal ior your iund-raising, any 
dollar aiiount? 

A Hot that I recall. Ko . 

2 How do you have a colleague or associate at 
Goldman. Sachs naned Scott nillec? 

A I do. 

fi Did you work with tlr . Killer in the Philadelphia 
office? 

A I did. 

2 During the period of time that you were meeting and 
talking with Hr . Slease? 

A Yes. 

S Did you discuss with Hr . Miller your conversations 
with Hr . Slease, or any of them? 

A I would imagine that X did, but I cannot recall 
specifically discussing a specific discussion with him. 

S Did Hz. niller participate in any of the 
conversations with Hr. Slease? 

A Yes. 

e Has he on the phone when you were talking with Mr. 
Slease? 

A I don't remember specifically that he was, but it's 
possible that he was. He sat next to each other, and it 
would be reasonable that he was. 



UHtlteSffB 



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HIR194002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 13 



Q And I bftlieve you indicat«d you had at l«ast one 
iace-to-iac« meating with Mr. Slaase on this subject. 

A Yes. 

2 Did Mr. niller--uas he present at that face-to-face 
meeting ? 

A No , he was not. 

2 Do you know if Mz . Slease asked Kr . Killer to 
assist in fund-raising with respect to Nicaragua? 

A I do not know. 

2 Now going back to the early conversation where he 
raised with you the subject of raising money, you indicated 
that you would like to learn Bore about the subject before 
you did anything and you would like to talk to people more 
knowledgeable about the matter. 

A Correct. 

2 Hhat did he say in response to that? 

A He said that he would arrange for a meeting in 
Washington . 

2 Did he indicate with whom you would be meeting? 
I would meet with Roy Godson and Colonel North. 
Did those names mean anything to you? 
I was acquainted with Colonel North from the Marine 



A 

2 
A 

Corps . 
2 
A 



You had known him previously? 

I was just--I believe I met him once in Okinawa, but 



MUSSIFO 



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HIR19(4002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 1<4 



I an more ianiliat with his rftputation. 

fi What was his raputation? 

A It was very strong, fast track, charisnatic. very 
positive reputation. Whan I heard his nane , it made me be 
more inclined to be involved. 

2 Do you know if Hr . Slease had been in the Marine 



Corps? 
A 
8 
A 

e 

A 
2 



I do not--no, I'm sure he has not been. 

Had Mr. Miller? 

Ko. 

Had you heard oi Mr. Godson? 

Ko. 

After this, what we believe is the second 
conversation where this discussion occurred, did Mr. Slease 
then get back to you with the details about such a meeting 
with Colonel North and Mr. Godson? 
A Yes. 

2 Did he get back to you promptly? 
A I think within a week, 
fi And did he arrange for such a meeting? 
A He did. 

fi And did a meeting occur? 
A It did. 

2 Where did it occur? 
A The Executive Office Building. 



\mwissw 



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HIR19I4002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE IS 



e Who attended? 

A Roy Godson and ityseli met at Colonel North's office 
with Colonel North. 

fi Did Mr. Slease attend? 
A He did not. 

fi And what date was this neeting? 
A August 28, 1985. 
2 Do you recall the tine? 

A It was for 2 o'clock. Two o'clock in the 
afternoon. 

e Is that a copy of a calendar that you just referred 
to? 

MR. ALBRIGHT: off the record. 
HR. FRYMAN: Sure. 
(Discussion off the record. 1 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
e Mr. Hirtle, would you read for the record the 
notations in your calendar that relate to this neeting? 

A Under 28 August, Wednesday, it reads, ''1400. 
Oliver North. 392 Executive Office Building. Roy Godson. 
How do we handle paynents?'' 

S And Mr. Godson's nane in the calendar is 
nisspelled. Is that correct? 
A That's correct. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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HIR19I4002 



UNClASSIFIEb 



PAGE 16 



nx. FRYHAN: I would ask that a copy of this page 
of tha calendar ba producad. and it is satisfactory to ne if 
tha othar entrias on this page which are unrelated to this 
natter be redacted. 

MR. ALBRIGHT: That's agreeable. 

HR. FRYftAN: And will you produce that and send it 
to me? 

MR. ALBRIGHT: y»s , I will. 
MR. FRYHAH: All right. 
BY HR. FRYHAM: 
Q Is that tha only entry in your calendar, Mr. 
Hirtle, that relates to the subject of your fund-raising 
with respect to Nicaragua? 
A It is. 

2 And you have reviewed your calendar to determine if 
there are any other entrias? 
A I have . 

Q Do you have any othar documents in your file that 
concern Nicaragua? 

A I have a paper written by Thomas F. Dowling called 
''Kieaxagua: Hlsconcaptions And Facts.*' 

fi And you have that with you today? 
A I do. 

S And that indicates that it was prepared by the 
Latin American Strategic Studies Institute and has a date of 



uNciAssra 



211 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HIR1914002 



PAGE 17 



March 17, 1986. Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

C Is this the original copy that you have with you 
today? 

A It's the original one that I received, yes. 

HR. FRYHAH: All right. I would ask that a copy of 
this also be produced. Is that satisfactory? 
HR. ALBRIGHT: That is. 
BY HR. FRYHAH: 

2 Kou apart from the page of your calendar that you 
referred to and this paper prepared by Father Douling, are 
there any other materials in your file that relate in any 
way to your fund-raising with respect to Nicaragua? 

A HO--I would asK you to clarify what you mean by 
''fund-raising,'* and, once again, because I never saw any 
money, so I'm not sure that I was involved in fund-raising, 
but I don't have any documents, period. 

fi Well, let me just broaden the question then. Do 
you have any other documents in your file that pertain to 
the subject of Nicaragua? 

A I do not. 

fi Now going back to tha maatlng on August 28, that 
■eating, you have indicated, occurred at 1U00 hours, or 2 
p.m., I take It, in civilian terms. Did you come to 
Washington that morning from Philadelphia? 



UNCLASSIHED 



212 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAHE: HIR19U002 PAGE 18 

3991 A Hidday, y«s . 

(400 e You had, prior to this nesting, navar mat Colonal 

(401 North or Hr . Godson. Is that correct? 
■402 A Correct. 

<403 2 What were the arrangements for your contacting them 

<40>4 that day? 

(405 A I was to go to the Executive Office Building, and I 

(406 had an appointment, and show up at Colonel North's office at 

U07 2 p.m., and, just to clarify, I don't recall specifically, 

>408 but I nay have met Colonel North in Okinawa. 
(409 fi All right. Maybe I misunderstood. I thought you 

It 10 indicated you had heard of him in Okinawa, but it is 

mi possible you met him briefly? 
m2 A Right. 

m3 e All right. And I take it you did appear at 

mi approximately 2 o'clock at the Executive Office Building. 
■4 15 I Witness nods. ] 

(4 16 BY HR. fRYHAN: 

(4 17 fi Did you meet with Hz. Godson beioz* meeting with 

ms Colonel Nozth? 

(4 19 A Just bziefly. He waited together for the meeting, 

U20 so perhaps IS minutes while we waited to go in to see 

•42 1 Colonal Nozth. 

(422 e And did you introduce youzself to Hz. Godson in the 

U23 waiting azea? 



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NAME: HIR1914002 PAGE 19 



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A I did. 

Q Kow whan Mr. Slaase Iniozmed you that ha had set up 
this neeting with thesa two individuals, what did you 
understand was to be tha purpose oi this meeting? 

MR. ALBRIGHT: Do you nean what was he told or what 
opinion did he have? because I don't think it's proper to 
inquire as to his opinion. 

HR. FRYHAN: I think it is. What is improper about 
that? 

MR. ALBRIGHT: I don't think you're entitled to 
inquire as to his opinion. He Is a fact witness. 

riR. FRYHAK: Hell. I think his state of mind at the 
time he went to this meeting is a fact. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Hell, if you are asking his state of 
mind, that is one thing; if you are asking personal 
opinions, that's another. I have no problem with your 
inquiring about what facts ha knew, what his understanding 
was based on if he had such an understanding. 

HR. FRYHAN: Hell, I think the question was his 
understanding of tha purpose of the meeting, which I think 
goes to his state of mind as to what was going to be the 
subject of the meeting. 

HK. ALBRIGHT: Hith that understanding, you can 
answez It. 

THE HITKESS' To inform me about tha situation in 



uNtufisra 



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PAGE 20 
me«ting, informative 



HIR194002 
Nicaragua, if 
BSAting, an iniornation procass. 
BY HR. FRYHAM! 

Q All right. Did you also understand that the 
subject of fund-raising was going to be raised at this 
meeting ? 

A Well, that goes into another question. The fund- 
raising was not necessarily--! mean the meeting really uas 
with Colonel North. Roy Godson shepherded me into the 
meeting. He was the one that took me in, because he uas 
really Terry Slease's contact. Colonel North never raised 
the issue of fund-raising. 

2 No. ny question, nr . Hlrtle, is directed to your 
understanding prior to the meeting as to the subjects that 
were going to be raised at the meeting, and my question is, 
did you understand in advance that the question of your 
raising funds was a matter that was going to be discussed at 
this meeting that had been arranged by Mr. Slease? 

A I don't recall specifically, but since I have in my 
book under Godson's name, ''How do I handle payments?'' I 
assume it must have been. 

fi And that note was in your calendar prior — you made 
that note prior to the date of the meeting? 

A Yes. 

HR. FRYNAN: Off the record. 



UNCIOFIED 



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486 
487 
488 
489 
490 
491 
492 
493 
494 
495 
496 
497 
498 



KNJMJSIflfD 



HIR194002 ^" *Vfcf ItJtJII II II PAGE 21 

[Discussion oif th« record.] 
HR. FRYMAX: On th« racord. 

THE WITNESS: I'm not sura. In thinking, it's 
possibla that I urota tha ''How do ua handla paymants?'' 
after coming out o£ tha naating. in thinking, aftar you 
asked ma tha question. 
BY MR. FRYMAM: 

S All right. Now you spoka in tha waiting room with 
Mr. Godson for a period of time before you want in to see 
Colonel North. 

A Correct. 

2 And tha duration of that session was how long? 

A Fifteen minutes. 

2 Fifteen minutes. What did you and Hr . Godson 
discuss during this preliminary meeting? 

A How I knew Terry Slease, how Roy knew Tarry Slease, 
just social things, how we got to know each other, and the 
fact that I had been in the Harines. and I remember 
specifically that he mentioned at that point that I was not 
to discuss anything about money in front of Colonel North. 

S Did ha tall you why? 

A He didn't say specifically, but he alluded to the 
fact that that was something that was not appropriate for 
him to discuss because of his role in the Government. 

fi Did that surprise you? 



216 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR194002 ^#ilWfcflWWll l|>V PAGE 22 



U99 
500 
501 
502 
503 
50t4 
505 
506 
507 
508 
509 
510 
511 
512 
513 
51U 
515 
516 
517 
518 
519 
520 
521 
522 
523 



A It did not surprise me that a colonel in the Marine 
Coxps couldn't be involved in raising noney from 
individuals . 

fi Was there any discussion about what money was being 
raised for at this point? * 

A I don't recall when the specifics came up. 

2 You don't recall if it came up before going in to 
see Colonel North. 

A Right. 

S So what you specifically recall were your service 
in the Marine Corps, your acquaintanceship and Mr. Godson's 
acquaintanceship with Mr. Slease, and a directive from Hr . 
Godson to you not to raise the subject of raising money in 
front of Colonel Korth. 

A Correct. 

S Any other specific subjects? 

HR. ALBRIGHT: He already told you there were 
social discussions. 

BY HR. FRYHAN: 

e Hall. Z thought that — that related to your knowledge 
of Hx. Slease. I thought. Is that correct. 

A Right. As far as I remember, that's it. 

fi Okay. So then you and nr. Godson go into Colonel 
North's oiiloa. and how long do you spend in his office? 

A Forty-five minutes or an hour. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



217 



NAHE: 

52<4 
525 
526 
S27 
528 
529 
530 
531 
532 
533 
53(4 
535 
536 
537 
538 
539 
5(40 
5(41 
5(42 
5>43 
5^U 
5(45 
5(46 
5(47 
5148 



HIR19I4002 
2 
A 
2 



UNCLASSIHED 



PAGE 23 



Just th« three oi you? 

Yes. 

Does he do most of the talking? 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Who's ' ' he ' ' ? 

HR. FRYHAH: Colonel North. 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. FRYHAN: 

Does he use any visual aids? 

Yes. 

What? 

A nap of Nicaragua. 

Anything else? 

No. 

Any slides? 

No. 

What subjects does he cover in this (45-iiinute 



S 
A 

e 

A 

e 

A 

2 

A 

2 
meeting? 

A First of all. we introduced ourselves, talked about 
common friends in the Marine Corps, and then he talked--asked 
me what I knew about Nicaragua, and I said I didn't know 
much, and he started with a thumbnail sketch of ancient 
history in Nicaragua, and then I believe about early on 
referred me to a book that I might read to bring me up to 
speed, and then started talking about more recent history 
since the revolution, and talked about how the contras were 



UNCUSSIFIED 



218 



5M9 

550 

551 

552 

553 

554 

555 

556 

557 

558 

559 

560 

561 

562 

563 

56>« 

565 

566 

567 

56 

56 

57 

57 

57 

57 



MIR19)4002 



UNCLASSiriED 



P&GK 2U 



doing, what tha slgnlilcanca of tha suoeassful — supporting 
tha oontras urns, iocusad on tha Idaa that it would ba 
significant ii a communist govaznmant was ovarthzown izom 
within, and it was important that, you know, wa did not want 
to usa ouz own troops, and it was mora important to us that 
thay did it on thalr own: talKad about, you know, that tha 
contras wara growing in siza. Ha was anthusiastic about tha 
contras' prospacts and vary iriandiy. 

& You mantionad ha talkad about his anciant history 
in Nicaragua. 

A No. inciant history in Nicaragua, maaning taking a 
thumbnail skatch oi whan tha Harinas iirst want to 
Nicaragua, just, you know, fiva minutas bringing you tha 
last 50 yaars up to currant history. 

fi All right. Did ha say anything about waapons neads 
ior tha contras? 

A Ha did not. 

e Did ha discuss 

A Ha did. 




UNCUSSIFIED 



219 



NAHKi 
57i4| 
S7S 
576 
577 
578| 
579 
58o| 
58 
582 
58: 
581 
58! 
58i 
58'; 
58{ 
58< 
59( 
5911 
592 
593 
59M 
595 
596 
597 
598 



KZK19II002 




BY nt. rHYKAM' 
8 Did h« talk about any iinanclal naadsl 



I Ha did not. Z don't xacall that ha did. Ha just 
foousad on tha iaot that thay waxa doing thaix bast to 90 on 

Ha didn't xaally talk 
about spaoliically uhathax thay naadad any aonay. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



220 



221 



N&HSi 

62H| 

625 

626 

62?! 

62 

62 

63 

63 

63 

63 

63 

63 

63 

63 

63 

639 

6U0 

6141 

6142 

6143 

euu 

6(45 
6(46 
6U7 
6t48 



RII19M00a 



mm 




fi Now in tha BttAting with Colonal North, did ColonaJ 
North indioat* in any nay th« ntt*d for financial asiistanca 
to^^^ 

No. 

HK. AIBKZGHT< TOB, oeuld H* taka a short braak? 

nt. rtYHANi Sura. 

( Discussion off tha raoord. 1 

HK. riYHiN' Hon Mas tha subjact of| 
:aisad in this aaating Mith Colonal North? 

Thaza Has an indication soaawhara in tha aaating 



iiNttussife 



222 



KAHZ< 
6U9 
650 

651 

652 

653 

65<4 

655 

656 

657 

658 

659 

660 

661 

662 

663 

66t4 

665 

666 

66 

668 

669 

670 

671 

672 

673 



UNCIASSIFIED 



HIK19H002 IJIlljLHiJiJiriLlJ "^*' '* 

thftt th« oontxas war* getting stzong«z and that that uai 
providing a allltazy pzastuza on tha Sandinistas to zaact. 
and thaza was dlploaatlc pzassuza izoa tha Unltad Statas. 




& Ha didn't talk about oionay, so I — no. 

e Tha subjaot didn't coma up at all? 

A Not that I zaoall. 

e Did ha talk about tha naad to axpand| 



UNCUSSIFIED 



223 



UNCLASSIHED 



KAHI' HIK19I4002 UllULflUUII ILLI ^'^^^ *^ 

67M A As Z xkoall, ftll th* tt«t«aants that would l*ad on* 

675 to b«ll«v« that that* was a naad fox monay vara lait unsaid. 

676 In othaz Mozds, ha didn't say anything Ilka. ''Thay zaally 

halp^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^K ' ' Ha navaz ha 

678 just talkad about tha situation. 

679 e Okay. Hhat did Hr . Godson say In this aaatlng? 

680 A Not much. Ha aalnly llstanad. 

681 fi Mow did tha aaatlng and? 

682 A Tha aaatlng andad In that thaza was a sansa that 

683 Colonal North was vazy busy, and ha talkad to Slzactoz Casay 

684 onca on tha phona whlla wa wara thara. and I just got tha 

685 sansa that ha was busy, and wa got through tha brlailng. and 

686 I ialt Z had to do soma honawozk as far as raadlng 

687 background on Nicaragua, and Z ialt Ilka It was tlsa ioz aa 

688 to laava . So Z stood up and said Z would do avarythlng I 

689 could, and ha said. ''Z know you will,*' and wa lait. 

690 fi Now ha raiazrad to a book In this brlaflng? 

691 A Ha did. 

692 fi And what was that book? 

693 A Entltlad "Ravolutlon Zn Tha raally" by Shlrlay 
69t< Christian. 

695 fi Old ha suggast you gat a copy of tha book? 

696 A Ha did. 

697 fi And did you? 

698 A Z did. 



MIASSKB 



224 



699 
700 
701 
702 
703 
704 
70S 
706 
707 
708 
709 
710 
711 
712 
713 
711* 
715 
716 
717 
718 
719 
720 
721 
722 
723 



HIR19U002 
& 
A 
C 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 30 



Did you read it? 

I did. 

So at some point in the meeting you got the sense 



that Colonel Notth uas busy, and the meeting came to a 
close, and you and Mr. Godson walked out o£ the White House 
complex. 

A Right. 

2 Is that correct? 

A Correct. 

e Hhat did you and Mr. Godson discuss aiter the 
meeting? 

A Raising money. Basically, that ii I knew anyone 
who wanted to give money, that I should call Roy Godson. 

S Hhat did Hr . Godson say speciiically about the need 
for money? 

A The only thing — I do remember that he specifically 
said that he was not — that we were not raising money for 
arms . 

fi Did you ask about that? 

A I did. 

fi Uhy did you ask about that? 

A Because Z was uneasy about raising money for arms. 

(t Hhy did you think that was a possibility? 

A Because it had been in the press, in the paper. 
The original statement — the original article that led me to 



HNtmssra 



225 



IIIK19il00a 



liNciAssra 



p&ai 31 



HAHf 

721* talK to Taxxy Slaas* was about Ganaxal Singlaub xaislng 

725 Bonay ioz azas . 

726 a So ha said this was not to ba for arms. 

727 A Right. 

728 fi Did ha tall you othaz paopla waza doing that? 

729 A Ha iapliad — I don't zaaaabar li ha told. Ha 

730 iapliad--! think ha said. "That's not Mhat this is for," 

731 and I said, ''You aaan lika Ganaral Slnglaub's doing that?" 

732 and ha said, "1 think so," or, "Yas," or iapliad that ha 

733 agraad with that statamant. 

73<4 2 Anybody othar than Ganaral Singlaub? 

735 A X didn't go into it. 

736 fi Has Carl Channall aantlonad? 

737 A Not at all. I navaz haazd tha guy's naaa bafora 
7 38 this. 

739 e So ha said this would not ba for arms. 

7iiO A Corzaot. 

7U1 fi Apart izoB axoluding azms as an objaot oi tha iund- 

7i«2 zalsing, did ha aiiirmativaly indioata that anything was to 

7143 ba tha objaot oi tha fund-raising? 

7 KM A Ha Indlcatad that tha monay would ba givan to| 

7K5^^^^^^ 

71461 • 9 for what purposa? 

7i{7 I ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^1 In othaz words. 

7 (18 would ba lait up to tha paopla In ohargal 



uNcussm 



226 



UNCLASSIFIED ■■ 



MIK19«002 UllULfflJlJII ILU "^*'' ^^ 

2 Old h* t*ll you Colonal Korth hmd asksd hla to 
tals* Bonay iot. 

X Ho novox said that. 

a Hho did ho say had askod hla to xalso aonoy ior 



A I don't zaaoabox that — Z aoan that doosn't—I didn't 
ask hlB. ''Who askod you to zalsa aonoy?" Ho said that ono 
of tho ways — I said. "Hall, how can I holp?' ' and ha said, 
''Doll, spoclf ioally , ua naad aonoyic 




that soundad good to aa, bacausa I didn't want to buy 

ziilas. I didn't want to spond aonoy — ralsa aonay to buy 
Hoapons . 

e Did ho spaoliy any amount that ho would Ilka you to 
zalsa? 

k 1 don't hava 100 pozcant zacolloctlon of that. I 
ballava ha did. but I can't zaaoaboz how auch It was. 

fi i tlx-flguza nuabaz? 

k I would say — slx-iiguza? 

e ovaz aioo.ooo? 

A Yas. 

fi Ovaz a BlllionT 

A Ko. 



DNOHSSifltB 



227 



NAME' 

774 
775 
lib 
Til 
778 
779 
780 
781 
782 
783 
784 
785 
786 
787 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
7914 
795 
796 
797 



HIR194002 



UNCUSSiFIED 



PAGE 33 



8 Did ha tall you what to do with tha monay that you 
raised at this time? 

A Ko . Ha said specif ically--! don't zananbez when he 
said it, but basically what happened was, ii I iound someone 
who was interested, I had that parson call Roy Godson. So I 
didn't do anything with tha aonay. I never saw any money. 
I don't Know that any money was raised. 

fi And after tha session, you go back to Philadelphia? 

A Correct. 

2 What do you do with respect to following up on this 
meeting? 

A I.read ''Revolution In The Family,*' and I start 
talking to people when the occasion arises about Nicaragua, 
and if they express interest in it, I say, ''If you'd like 
to learn mora, I can introduce you to some people who know 
more about it than I do.'' 

2 How many people do you talk to? 

A Total? I would say I talked to ten people total. 

2 Did any of them express an interest in learning 



more? 



A Two . 

2 Who ware thay? 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Of tha record. 

[Discussion off tha record.] 



UNCLASSIFIEO 



228 



HIR19U002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 3M 



HR.-niYMAM: On th« tacord . 

THE WITNESS: If th«s« two paopla w«ra cli«nts of 
mina, I would b« less likaly to giva thalr namas, and I say 
that only bacause I'm trying to saparata this iron tha firm. 

They aia not clients of tha firm, they ate just 
acquaintances of mine, and I always emphasized in any 
discussion that this had nothing to do with my role at 
Goldman, Sachs. 

BY HR. FRYHAK! 
fi Hall, you can state that for tha record. Mr. 
Hirtla. but I do not accept, if you are suggesting that it 
is your view, that if they were clients, that would give you 
a basis for not identifying them. As far as I'm concerned, 
you would have to identify them whether they were or were 
not clients, but if you want to state that for the record, 
fine . 

A Hell, I would like to state for the record that at 
some future date, if this point rises, and my attorney has 
advised ma that I really have no case — 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Don't gat into that. 

I think he can answer tha question on the two. 

THE UITNESS: I wanted to talk about something for 
a minute. Can you turn that off? 

HR. ALBRIGHT: off tha record. 

[Discussion off tha record.] 



UNCLASSIFIED 



229 



NAHE: 
823 
82M 
825 
826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
8314 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8140 
8M1 
8>42 
8U3 
8I4M 
8145 
8146 
8M7 



HIR194002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 35 



THE WITNESS: Don n«ads, H-E-A-O-S; Jam«s nacaleer. 
BY MR. rRYHAN: 
2 How do you spall ' ' Hacaleet ' • ? 
A H-A-C-A-L-E-E-R — E-E-R. 

MR. OLIVER: Could UA 90 off th« ZACozd fot just a 
ninuta, Tom? 

HR. FRYHAK: Sure. 
(Discussion off tha racord.] 
MR. OLIVER: Back on tha zacozd. 
BY HR. FRYHAK: 
8 How do you know Don Haads? 

A I hava nat his socially in Philadalphia . Ha's a 
faizly wall known sanior axacutiva in Philadalphia. 
Q By what company is ha amployad? 

A Ha is — ha usad to ba tha chairman of Caztainteed 
Corporation, and ha is now — has his own company called 
Philadalphia First, and ha was a formar chairman of the 
Uorld Affairs Council and pzasidant--whatavar it is 
called — and ha is on tha board of several corporations, 
e Do you know where he resides? 
A X do not. Philadelphia. 

e But he resides in the Philadelphia area? 
A Yes. 

e And how do you know Hr . Nacaleer? 
A He is also a prominent businessman in the 



BNOIlSSIfe 



230 



MZI19^002 



WlASSra 



PtOI 36 



Phllad*lphl« azaa. 



Zi ha a soolal izland oi youzs? 

Yas. 

As Is Hz. naadst 

Yas. 

And by what organization is Hz. Hacalaar anployad? 

Shazad Radical Systams. SHS I guass thaiz fozaal 
nana is now, Incorpozatad. 

ft "Shazaton" is tha fizst wozd? 

Shazad — S-H-A-R-E-D— Hadicai Systams . 

And doas ha also zasida in tha Philadalphia azaa? 

Ka doas. 

Now thasa two individuals, aitaz you spoKa with 
thaa> indicatad an intazast in laazning aoza about 
Nicazagua? 

A Yas. 

fi And did you also indioata to thaa that you waza 
spaaking with an objactiva oi zaising monay 



A Yas . 

8 And thay axpzassad an intazast in contzibuting 
■onay, oz possibly contzibuting monay. toJ 

A I don't zacall that at that point thay said 
anything about uhathaz thay would oz wouldn't, but thay just 
said thay waza intazastad in haaring mora about it. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



231 



NAME: 
873 
87U 
875 
876 
877 
878 
879 
880 
881 
882 
883 
88<4 
885 
886 
887 
888 
889 
890 
891 
892 
893 
891* 
895 
896 
897 



HIR19U002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 37 



8 Haazing mor«. So after thay indicatad this 
intarast, what did you do? 

A I got than a copy of ''Ravolution In Tha Fanily*' 
and schedulad a maeting for than with Colonal North. 

S How did you do that? 

A I callad Roy Godson. 

fi And you axplainad to him you had two potential 
contributors? 

A I said I didn't know if thay wara contributors or 
if thay would just laad to sonaona alsa who was a 
contributor, but I fait that thay wara prominent people and 
worth while talking to. 

e Okay. And what did ha say? 

A Ha said, 'Tina. Let's set up a meeting.'' 

fi And he callad you back? 

A Yes . 

Q With a date and a time? 

A I ballava at soma point I started talking directly 
to Colonel North's office to coordinate the meeting. So at 
some point Roy got out of tha loop. 

fi Did you talk to fawn Hall? 

A yes. 

fi And did you set up a meeting? 

A I did. 

e And where was the meeting? 



UNCUSSIflEO 



232 



HAME: 
898 
899 
900 
901 
902 
903 
904 
905 
906 
907 
908 
909 
910 
911 
912 
9 13 
91i« 
915 
916 
917 
918 
919 
920 
921 
922 



HIR194002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 38 



A In Philadelphia. 

fi The maeting occurred, X take it? 

A Yes. 

2 And it occurred in Philadelphia? 

A Yes. 

Q And do you recall the date? 

A I do not. 

C Is that narked in your calendar? 

A It is not. 

C Do you know why it's not narked in your calendar? 

A I'n not that thorough. It's not in there. I 

looked at it. 

S To the best of your recollection, when did it 
occur? 

A I would think it occurred within two months after 
my August neeting. 

S Sone tine in the iall of 1985? 

A Correct. 

2 Where was it? 

A The Kacquet Club in Philadelphia. 

fi Is that a squash club? 

A Yes. 

e Do you play squash? 

A Ko. It's also got court tennis. 

fi Do you play court tennis? 



uNCUissra 



233 



KAHE 
923 
924 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
93U 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
91(0 
9m 
9M2 
9143 
9(4U 
945 
9(46 
<)i*7 



HIR194002 



UNCussra 



PAGE 39 



A No. But it's unique that it has court tannis . 
HR. FRYrtAN: Oif the record. 
[Discussion oif the record.] 
MR. FRYMAN: Back on the record. 
BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 So a meeting occurred in Philadelphia at the 
Racquet Club in the fall of 1985 with you. Colonel North, 
Mr. Macaleer, and rir . Heads. 

A Correct, although Hr . Heads and Hr . Hacaleer were 
not there at the sane tine. 

fi These were separate meetings? 

A Yes . 

2 Has Hr . Hiller present? 

A He was . 

Q For the sessions with both of these individuals? 

A Yes. 

fi Anyone else? 

A No. 

fi Hhy was Hz. Hiller present? 

A He was interested to heaz the — he was really there 
to heaz the briefing that Colonel North was going to give 
these people, that I had heard, that he had not heard. 

fi Has he assisting you in identifying prospective 
contributors? 

A Not really. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



234 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR19U002 IIIUI.I U -V Xiriril PAGE <40 

e Do you know if rir . nill«r knew Mr. Godson at tha 
point? 

A Ha did not know rir . Godson at this point, nor did 
he know v«ry w«ll Hx . Hacaleer or Hz. Heads. Those were my 
acquaintances, although I net Terry Slease through Scott 
Miller. 

8 Mow long did these separate meetings last with Mr. 
Heads and Hr . Hacaleer? 

A Forty-five minutes to an hour. 

e For each one? 

A Yes, although what happened was, Hr . Hacaleer was 
late, so the second meeting was shorter. 

fi Did Colonel North do most of the talking? 

A Yes. 

S Has his presentation similar to his presentation to 
you in Washington? 

A Yes. 

e Did he cover anything else that he didn't cover in 
Washington? 

A There had been some more Soviet arms build-ups 
since I talked to him, and he detailed that. 

e Did he ask for a contribution? 

A He did not, not when I was present anyway. 

fi Here you present during all of his meeting with 
these two individuals? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



235 



NAME 

973 
9711 
975 
976 
977 
978 
979 
980 
981 
982 
983 
98t< 
985 
986 
987 
988 
989 
990 
991 
992 
993 
99i» 
995 
996 
997 



UNCussm 



HXR1911002 iriviBi Ai.\ M^ikii rxGi ui 

k Not whan — Hx. Haoalsat dzova Colonel North to th« 

zailzoad station, so th«z* was a point In tlaa uhan I was 
not thara. 

S Did you hava discussions with Mr. Naads and Hr . 

nacalaar aitaz thalr maatlng with Colonal Nozth? 

k Not Immadlataly aitamards. 

S Hithln a iaw days? 

A I ballava I did. 

2 Old you ask thaa to donata aonay to ^^^^^^^^^^| 



A I did not. 

2 What did you say to thaa? 

A I said, *'RoH did you Ilka Colonal North?" "How 
did you Ilka tha aaatlng?" — things Ilka that. Thay said 
thay llkad It and thay wantad to think aora about tha 
situation. 

2 Hhat did you understand thay iiaant whan thay wanted 
to think mora about the situation? 

A Hall, I don't think either one oi them had read the 
book yet. for one thing, and X think they had just been too 
busy, and this was sort oi going to get thea aoving on 
■aklng a decision whethez they wanted to be donors or not, 
and I think, on Hz. Heads part, Z think ha was thinking oi 
other people that we could introduce people. I don't know 
that he ever did introduce anyone, but Z think that's one oi 



UNCLASSIFIED 



236 



HIR19U002 



UNClASSra 



PAGE M2 



the things h« was thinking, and paxhaps having a iollow-up 
pzttsantation by Colonal Korth. 

2 Okay. Did th«y get back to you about the subject 
oi a contribution, oz did either of then? 

A Neithez one oi then got back to ne on the subject 
of a contribution. At sone point. I told then about Roy 
Godson. Now I'n not suze how — when oz how I got that aczoss. 

fi Hhat did you tell then about Godson? 

A I zenenbez specifically ninicking sozt of what 
Godson had told ne about not nentioning noney in front of 
Colonel Kozth. so that I told then that, that if theze was 
any noney to be given oz zaised. that it would go to Roy 
Godson and that we shouldn't nention it to Colonel Nozth. 
So I know X nentioned it pzobably befoze the neeting, and 
that's it. 

8 Just so I'n cleaz. Hz. Hiztle. aftez the neeting 
with these two individuals and Colonel Kozth. you then had a 
discussion with each of then wheze they said they wanted to 
think noze about the discussion. Is that cozzect? 

A Yes. 

fi Now what fuzthez conversation did you have with 
eithez of then about this subject? 

A It's hazd fox ne to zecall specific discussions, 
but I zenenbez that I sozt of kept then posted in the sense 
that if theze was an aztiole in the papez that I saw about 



UNCUSSIFIED 



237 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIR19U002 VIlVlBnUwII ILU Pl^Gt 143 



1023 
102U 
1025 
1026 
1027 
1028 
1029 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
lOSM 
103S 
1036 
1037 
1038 
1039 
10*40 
lOUl 
10U2 
10>43 
lOMM 
lOUS 
10U6 
10147 



Nicaragua, I'd sand it to thea; I'd cut it out o£ tha Wall 
Sttaet Journal and sand it to tha«--somathing lika that--to 
try and keep them up to date. It wasn't an ongoing project. 

I was very busy, and, you know, it would go a month at a 
time I wouldn't do anything, and then something would 
happen, and I might give tham a call and say, ''I've found 
this out,'' or whatever, and so that it's hard for me to 
give you, you know, exactly what happanad . I don't 
remember, is the bottom line. 

e Wall, did you make any inquiries as to whether 
either oi than was going to maka a contribution? 

A I did not. 

e Did--I'm sorry. Go ahead. 

A I just--that part — I mean I did not ask than if they 
were going to make a contribution only because It just 
didn't seem comfortable to do that. I didn't feel 
comfortable doing it. It saamad to ma that, since I'd given 
them Godson's name and that thay had heard just what I 
heard, you know, it wasn't necessary. I mean I didn't, so I 
really do not ramambar asking either one of tham for money, 
although I think that thay — I must have said early on that I 
was raising money, helping raisa aonay, or, you know, I was 
involved In that soaahow. because I know that they knew that 
the point oi the meetings was to give a briefing so that 
they would be mora comfortable, so that if they ware going 



mussro 



238 



HIR19M002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE (4(< 



to give nonay> thay would know what th«y ueta giving money 
for. I nean it wasn't like there was no awareness that 
there was an issue to raise money. 

2 Did you ever obtain any information about whether 
either of them made a contribution? 

A I don't recall specifically, but I do seem to 
remember Roy Godson telling me that he got a check. 

2 From whom? 

A He did not say. 

2 From one of those two individuals? 

A That was what he implied. 

2 He didn't identify which one? 

A He did not. 

2 And you have no other information as to which one 
made the contribution? 

A I do not. 

2 Did Godson mention an amount? 

A The problem with that is that I deal in a business 
where I'm throwing numbers around all day, and I don't 
really remember. I cannot say foe sure that he did. 

2 Have you ever indicated to anyone that the amount 
was «60,000? 

A I believe I told you on the phone that that's a 
number that stuck in my head but that I didn't know for sure 
if it was true. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



239 



NAME: 
1073 
1071* 
1075 
1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 
1083 
108>« 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
109U 
1095 
1096 
1097 



HIR19U002 



UNCLASSIHED 



PAGE US 



fi Why do«s that numbar stick in your h«ad? 

A I don't knou. It's just a nuabex that, uhan I 
think about this, just sort oi pops up. 

Q And you hava navat had any convarsation at all with 
eithec Mr. naads or Mr. Hacalaar as to whather they nade any 
contribution following this maating that you arranged with 
Colonal Kotth? 

A I didn't say that. X just don't know for sure. I 
never saw a check. I don't know. I never saw any money 
change hands . 

fi Hell, that's not ay question. Do you want the 
question read back? 

A Yes. 

[Whazeupon, the reporter read the record, as 
directed . 1 

THE WITNESS: ny problan with that question is, I 
don't know whether either of then — I don't know for sure 
whether anybody gave any aoney . Therefore, it would be an 
impression on my part, and if I don't know for sure, it 
seems like I'm dealing in an impzeasion. which doesn't seem 
to be fair to the people involved. I mean if you want an--it 
seams to me that if you want to know, you should ask them, 
not me, oz Hz. Godson. 
BY HR. FRYHAN' 

fi Hall, again. Hz. Hiztla. I don't think that's 



UNCLASSIFIED 



240 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAME: HIR19U002 ^11 Vl-» •*'^' " " PAGE (46 

rasponsiva to tha question, and ua can have the reporter 
read the question again, ii you would iike. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Hell, he is saying he doesn't 
recall. I think is his answer. 

HR. FRYMAH: Hall, that's not what he's saying. 
Let's have the question read once again. 

(Hheraupon. the reporter read the record, as 
directed . ] 

THE HITKESS: I don't recall having any 
conversation with either of then, but I'm not sura; I may 
have. 

BY HR. FRynAN: 
e Do you recall telling Mr. Davis oi the House 
Coitaittee staii that in response to your efforts two or 
three people donated appzoMlaataly *200,000? 

HR. ALBRIGHT: is there sonething where this 
witness made a statement to Hr . Davis that's recorded? 
because I think tha witness is entitled to see tha 
statement. 

HR. FRYHAK: Hall. I think it's an appzopziata 
question to put to tha witness, and he can either answer 
Hhathar ha recalls telling Hr . Davis that or doesn't. 

MR. ALBRIGHT: But tha question is this: do you 
have a statement of this witness given to Mr. Davis upon 
which you base that question? If so. I think he's entitled 



UNCLASSIFIED 



241 



KAnE: 
1123 
112H 
1 125 
1 126 
1127 
1 128 
1 129 
1 130 
1131 
1 132 
1 133 
US'* 
1 135 
1 136 
1137 
1138 
1139 

imo 
1 mi 

1 1(t2 
1 1(43 

imit 
1 ms 

1 t((6 
1 1U7 



HIR19M002 



to saa it. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE U7 



HR. rRYHAN: Wall, I don't agrea with that. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: I'n asking for fairnass to tha 
witnass. 1± this is an attanpt to rafrash his lacollection. 
perhaps that will, in iact, rafrash his racollaction. 

riR. FRYMAM: Wall, until ha ansuars tha question, 
thara's no raal reason to baliava that his recollection 
needs refreshing. 

MR. ALBRIGHT: Hall, you have apparently a 
statanant, or at least you clain to have a statement, or it 
saans that tha inplication is clear that you have a 
statanant. of this witness. If you do. I think he's 
entitled to see it. 

THE WITNESS: Yas . 

BY HR. rRYHAN: 
& What was tha basis for that statement to Hr . Davis? 
A I got that impression from talking to Tarry Sleasa. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: kow do you want to show him tha 
statamant? 

MR. FRYHAM: I don't think there's any need to now. 
Ha's ooniirmad that ha said that to Mr. Oavls. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: So you're going to withhold a 
statamant made by this witnass to your investigator. Is 
that what I understand? 

HR. FRYHAN: That's correct. 



mu^ssw 



242 



HIR19t4002 



UNCIASSIRED 



PAGE MS 



HR. ALBRIGHT: That Hill go a long way towaid 
astablishlng tha tanoz of tha intarzogatlon. 

HR. FRXHAK: Hall, you can draw uhatavar conclusion 
you want. 

BY MR. rRYHAN: 

2 Now was this Hz. Slaasa's statamant to you that 
contributors that you had contactad contributad that amount 
of nonay? 

A Ko . It was a total aaount that Tazzy's and ouzs> 
total, had glvan. 

e All right. 

A And I gat tha imprassion that his part gava a lot 
nora than our part, but I don't know — tha thing is that> 
sinca this is a whila ago> I hava inpzassions that involva 
saying things about paopla that I don't know to ba true. 

8 Right. 

A And I'b vary — and it's ona thing to tall Bill Davis 
on tha phona. and it's anothaz thing to say — to mantion 
somebody's nama with a nuabar on tha ra«ord. 

e All zlght. Hall. I'b trying to ba vary spaciiic 
about what you raoall that paopla said to you. and 
understood that my questions are designed to elicit your 
speciilo recollection about things that ware told to you. 
HR. ALBRIGHT: And not impressions. 
HR. FRYHAK: Yes — and not Impressions. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



243 



KAKE: 
1 173 
1 174 
1 175 
1 176 
1 177 
1178 
1 179 
1 180 
1 181 
1 182 
1 183 
1 18>4 
1 185 
1 186 
1 187 
1 188 
1189 
1 190 
1 191 
1 192 
1 193 
1 19U 
1 195 
1 196 
1197 



HIR19U002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE >49 



THE WITNESS: Hy problam is that ny impressions 
ov«r tine become clouded with the facts. If you have an ~ 
impression for a year and a half, it's hard to remember 
whether it actually--you heard that or if you've just been 
under that assumption for so long it sounds like the truth. 
HR. FRYMAN: All right. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Well, Counsel, let's not argue with 
the witness and get on. 

Just answer his questions. 

HR. FRYMAN: Well, again, I don't accept your 
characterization that I was arguing with the witness, but in 
any case, I would like to move on. 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 
e After this meeting that you arranged with these two 
individuals, what else did you do as a follow-up to the 
request by Hr . Godson for your assistance in raising funds? 
A Nothing, 
fi That was the last step you took? 

(Witness nods . 1 
e Did you give any money yourself? 
A I did not. 

e Do you know if Mr. Miller gave any money? 
A I do not know. 
2 Did he tell you if he did? 
A I have the strong impression that he did not. 



UNCLASSinED 



244 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HIR19K002 VllVkfflVUII ILl/ PAGE 50 

fi Kow wa havA discussad in passing Father Douling. 
Hav* you aval mat Fathar Oouling? 

A I hava. 

2 Hou did you happan to maat him? 

A Ha cama to Philadelphia to introduce himself to rae . 

S Hhan was that? ' 

A I don't ramambax iox sure. It seems that it was in 
spring of '86. 

2 That was after your meeting with Colonel North? 

A Yes. 

fi Do you know if Colonel North suggested that Father 
Dowling contact you? 

A X believe he did. 

S What is your basis for that belief? 

A I called Colonel North> I think, and asked him if 
there was anything I could be doing to help, and he said 
there was this fellow Tom Bowling who is interested in 
arranging a public speaking campaign, ''Haybe you can help 
him'' — you know, ''I'll hava him give you a ring,'' or, ''You 
give him a ring.'' I don't remember if I called him first 
or ha caXlad ma. 

fi Since your meeting in Colonel North's office that 
you desoxlbad, how many oonvaxsmtlons hava you had with 
Colonel North? 

A Two, I ballava. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



245 



NAnE- 

1223 
122M 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123U 
1235 
1236 
1237 
1238 
1239 
12<40 
121(1 
12*42 
12U3 
12>4<4 
12<(5 
12>t6 
12147 



UNCUSSIFIED 



HIR19i4002 UllULrtllalll If II PAGE 51 

2 Ona is tha one you ^ust dascribad. 

A Right. 

Q What was tha othaz ona? 

A I thinK it was just a social call, just to check in 
and saa how things waza going. 

8 And whan was that othaz ona? 

A I think it must hava baan--I don't know. I mean I 
would guass--it's quita a whila ago. I naan I haven't talked 
to hin since tha investigation began. I think it might hava 
been no lataz than tha summez of '86, pezhaps eazlier than 
that. 

fi Hava you mat with him on othaz than tha ona 
occasion that you dasczibad? 

A In Executive Oifica Building, ona, and 
Philadelphia, two. 

Q All zight. Othez than those occasions? 

A Ko. 

e That's tha only meetings? 

A Right. 

S KoH you called him onoa and you asked him what else 
you could do> and ha mentioned Pathaz Dowling and that 
rathez Dowling was tzying to azzanga a speaking touz? 

A Sight. 

fi And aitaz that. Pathaz Dowling contacted you? 

A Cozzact — oz I contacted him: I'm not suza which. 



UNCLASSIHED 



246 



KAHI: HII119U002 



UNCIASSIFIED 



PiGX 52 



fi And at Boaa point you zaoalvad th* bzoehura or 
maaozandua izoa Pathaz Oowllng that you'va dasozlbad today? 

I Yas. 

fi Did fathaz DoHllng mail that to you or hou did — 

A Ha did. 

fi And hoH aany tlaas hava you mat with fathar 
DoHling? 

A Onea . 

fi That was in Philadalphia? 

A Yas. 

fi And what ocourrad at that aaating? 

A Ua had dinnar. talkad about what ha was trying to 
do, and who ha was. introduction, just talkad about what ha 
was trying to do. 

fi And what was ha trying to do? 

A Arranga a spaaking tour. 

fi Uho was tha spaakar to ba? 

A RiasaJ 




A Yas . 

S Mhat sort oi organisations? 

A Tha tetaz7' Horld Aiiairs Council, and basically 
anybody who would listan. 



UNCUSSIFIED 



247 



HAHE: 
1273 
1274 
127S 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 
12814 
128S 
1286 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
1294 
1295 
1296 
1297 



HIR194002 



UNCUSSiFe 



PAGE 53 



Q And ware you successful in arranging any such-- 

A He uere--really , it was not successful. We were in 
the middle of doing--arrangin9 some of this when the 
investigation began. 

2 Did you make any contribution to Father Cowling? 

A I did not. 

S Did you seek any contributions for him? 

A I did not. 

2 How we have mentioned from time to time Mr. Miller, 
and I believe you indicated that at the time you first met 
with Mr. Godson it's your understanding that Mr. Miller did 
not Know Mr. Godson. Is that correct? 

A That's my understanding. 

2 Now is it your understanding that at some point Mr. 
Miller met Mr. Godson? 

A It is . 

Q How was that arranged, if you know? 

A I do not recall. 

e Do you Know when that occurred? 

A Z do not. 

e Do you Know if Hz. Hlllaz has had meetings with Mr. 
Godson in Europe? 

A Yes, I do Know that. 

e Did nz. Miller tell you about those meetings? 

A He — I mean I was aware of them through Mr. Miller. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



248 



UNCIASSIHED ... 



HIR19t4002 UllWIal «WWB> -— -- pjGE 5U 

Ha didn't tall na . I didn't gat in a big discussion about 
it. 

2 Right> but tha souzca of youz infornation, such as 
it is. about thosa maatings is Hz. Hiilaz. 

A Yas. 

e Did you avaz discuss than with Mr. Godson? 

A No. 

Q Tazzy Slaasa? 

A Ko. 

2 Anyona alsa? 

A Ko. 

2 Hhat did Hz. Millaz tall you about thasa maatings? 

A Just that thay occuzzad. 

2 Did ha tall you that thay waza zalatad to £und- 
zaising? 

A Ha did not. 

2 Sid ha tall you tha puzposa of tha maatings with 
Hz. Godson in Euzopa? 

A Ha did. 

e Hhat was that? 

A Thay Maza to ozganiza a saninaz about Soviet 
disiniozmation. as faz as I know. 

fi Did Hz. nillaz tall you that ha had azzangad 
intzoductions foz Mz . Godson ioz iziands of his in Euzopa? 

A I know that tha paopla who cama to tha maating waza 



UNCLASSIFIED 



249 



HARE: 
1323 
132U 
1325 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
133>4 
1335 
1336 
1337 
1338 
1339 
13(40 
13U1 
13(42 
13(43 
13(4U 
13(45 
13(46 
13(47 



HIR19I4002 



UNCIASSIHED 



PAGE 55 



acquaintances of Scott Miller's and--I mean he didn't tell me 
that, but I nean I assume that that's a logical conclusion. 

2 But you have no information that Hr . rtiller's 
association with Hr . Godson was related in any way to fund- 
raising ? 

A I do not have any information on that--about that, 
and I — I don't think this is — the one is any way related to 
the other, as far as I know, meaning that the European 
meeting has nothing to do with my association with Colonel 
Horth or Hr . Godson. 

e I don't want to seek your Impression now. 

Going back to the subject of documents, do you have 
any additional documents that relate to Hr . Godson? 

A I do not. 

HR. rRYHAK: I have no further questions. 
Hr . Oliver. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 

2 Hr . Hirtle, I'm going to try to follow up on a few 
of the things that occurred to me as we want through this. 
How many contacts have you had with Roy Godson since you 
first met him? 

A A half-dozen. 

fi Other than the two meetings with Colonel 
North — there was one meeting with Colonel North — did you ever 
have any other contacts with him face to face? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



250 



HIR19(«002 



uNCUissra 



PAGE 56 



A With Colonel North? 

2 No> with Roy Godson. 

A Tha only maeting X avar had, as I racall, face to 
face with Roy Godson was tha first maating with Colonel 
North at the Executive Office Building. 

e When Terry Slease mentioned Roy Godson to you, how 
did he describe his? What did he say he did--why he was 
involved in this? 

A That he was a--worked at Georgetown and the National 
Center for Strategic Studies and was a conservative 
intellectual type of person and was involved in and 
understood what was going on in Nicaragua or was involved in 
this project. 

2 What did ha say about his connection with the 
National Security Council and Colonel North? 

A I don't recall that ha said anything about that. 

2 What did Roy Godson tell you about his connection 
with the National Security Council and Colonel North? 

A I believed he explained it as that there was--that 
he worked with then on certain pzojeots. 

e Did you meet Roy Godson at the White House, or did 
you go to the White House together? 

A I went — at the Executive Office Building? You 
consider that part of the White House? 

S Yes. 



UNCIASSIHED 



251 



NAME: 
1373 
1374 
1375 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
138X 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 
1393 
139>< 
1395 
1396 
1397 



HIR19U002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 57 



A I mttt hin thara. 

2 you said that you waia in tha maating with Colonal 
Horth that Bill Casey called. Is that correct? 
[ Uitness nods . ] 

S Did his saczata;:y buzz in and tell him that Bill 
Casey was on the phone, or did she walk in. or did the phone 
just ring on his desk and it uas Bill Casey? 

A I don't really remenber how that happened. 

C How do you Know it was Bill Casey? 

A He said--called hin Mr. Director or 
something--raierred to him in soma way that led ma to believe 
it was nr. Casey, and then when he got oii. I think he said 
it was Hr . Casey, but it wasn't than, it was like--you know, 
it was a conversation that didn't have anything — it was 
••pick up my cleaning*' or something; it was — you know, it 
was a short conversation about something that didn't seen to 
have anything to do with what we were talking about, a 
social conversation. 

fi What do you maan by ''social conversation''? Hhat 
did he say? 

A Z don't remambaz. All I remember is having the 
laprassion that it was a social conversation. It didn't 
seam to have any substance. Hhan ha was talking, ha was 
smiling, kind oi laughing whan ha was talking. 

fi Uas there just one call or two? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



252 



HIR19I4002 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 58 



A Just one. 

fi When you arianged this meeting for Colonel Koxth 
uith--these meetings with Mr. Heads and Mr. flacaleer, did you 
tell Roy Godson that these people were potential donors? 

A I believe I did. 

S Did you tell them beiore the meeting that they had 
been described as potential donors to Roy Godson or Colonel 
North? 

A I don't believe Z told them that they had been 
described to anyone as a potential donor. 

fi But they Knew that one oi the purposes oi the 
meeting was to encourage them to give money to the project? 
HR. ALBRIGHT: Well, how can he testify as to what 
somebody else knew, Hr . Oliver? I mean he can testify as to 
what they told him and what he told them, but he doesn't 
know what the mental processes are oi another individual 
unless they express it. I don't have any problem with you 
asking what they expressed, i.± anything. 

MX. OLIVER: Counsel, he testified, I believe, 
earlier that after the meeting, he said they wanted to think 
about becoming donors. I want to know when they learned 
that they were potential donors. 

THE WITNESS: I believe that when I talked to them 
originally I mentioned the Idea of raising money. I do not 
believe that the meeting with Colonel North — in other words. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



253 



NAME: 
1423 
142(4 
1425 
1426 
1427 
1428 
1429 
1430 
1431 
1432 
1433 
1434 
1435 
1436 
1437 
1438 
1439 
1440 
1441 
1442 
1443 
1444 
1445 
1446 
1447 



UNCLASSIFIED 



the naating with Colonal North was spaciiically a briefing 
about Nicazagua such as it's like a proof source. Z was 
interested in having then and raising money for Nicaragua, 
and I needed a reference. Colonel North was the reference. 
The meeting with Colonel North in that regard didn't have 
anything to do — Colonel North was not involved in the raising 
of the money. In other words. Colonel North was the 
briefing. I was the one that they talked to if they were 
going to raise any money. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 

2 So did you talk to them about raising money after 
Colonel North had briefed them? 

A I believe I did. I said, you know, ''If you need 
to raise money' '--and I said it before they went in--' 'this 
fellow is a proof source. If you want to give money or if 
you know someone who wants to give money, there's another 
guy you talk to, Roy Godson, and I will get you his name and 
number if you want it,*' or ''when you want if' or 
whatever; I don't remember what I said then. 

fi Did you Instruct each one of them not to mention 
the subject oi raising money during their meeting with 
Colonel North? 

A Z did. 

fi You instructed each one of them separately? 

A Yes. 



w&issm 



254 



mmm 



HknZ HIR19U002 IJ|lU|Linw wH ■*->*' PAGE 60 

8 On the phona beiora tha meeting or when they 
aizived at the Racquet Club? 

A I don't recall. 

Q Did they ask you why you were cautioning them not 
to do that? 

A I don't think they did. 

e Did you tell them why you were — they shouldn't 
mention money? 

A I don't recall other than — I don't recall. 

2 You said that Scott Hiller worked with you at your 
place of enployaant. Does he still work there? 

A He does . 

e In Philadelphia? 

A No; New York. 

2 So he moved irom the Philadelphia office to the New 
York office? 

A Ha did. 

2 Hhan did that occur? 

A I baliava it was August of '86. 

2 August of '86. Here you aware of a trip that Mr. 
nillar took to Europe in December of 1985? 

A I was. 

e What was tha purpose of that trip? 

A I think it was a combined purpose of business and 
just setting up this meeting with Roy Godson and this Soviet 



MiASsro 



255 






KAHE: 
1473 
H47« 
m7S 
1U76 
1i»77 
1478 
1U79 
1X80 
1X81 
1X82 
1X83 
1X8X 
1X85 
1X86 
1X87 
1X88 
^ 1X89 
1X90 
"^ 1X91 
1X92 
1X93 
1X9X 
1X95 
1X96 
1X97 



HIK19X002 



UNCLASSIHED 



PAGE 61 



disinf ornation seminar, introducing Roy to Scott's 
acquaintancas in Europa. 

Q Had Scott had soma interest in Soviet 
disinformation prior to that, that you knou of? 

A No. I mean I think he had read Godson's book. 

2 Did he tell you that he was going to Europe or that 
he was going to meet Roy Godson in Europe? 

A Yes. 

fi Did he tell you that there was any other purpose, 
other than this Soviet disinformation seminar? 

A He did not. 

2 When did he tell you this Soviet disinformation 
seminar was going to take place? 

A I don't recall specifically. I mean it was some 
point after this meeting. This was to set up the seminar. 

2 Did he tell you that he had gone to a dinner at the 
residence of Ambassador Whittlesey when he was in 
Switzerland in December of 1985? 

A I don't recall. 

2 Did ha avax tell you that he had been to dinner at 
Ambassador Hhlttlesey's house? 

A I don't recall. 

2 You were sitting right next to each other in your 
office, and he had met Godson sort of about the same time 
you did and gone to Europa with his, and ha never indicated 



MiAssra 



256 



UNClASSra 



HIR1914002 lllilil Hijijll II II ^'^^^ ^2 

to you what had gona on theza? 

A Not in dataiX. You know, the aabassadoz is fzom 
ouz area, and ha know--ha sonehow nat hex. I know that he is 
acquainted with her, but I don't know where it happened. 

2 Do you know whether nr . Killer ever met Colonel 
North again after that meeting at the Racquet Club? 

A I don't know. I don't think so. 

fi He never mentioned to you that he had met Colonel 
North? 

(Witness shakes head. 1 

2 Did ha ever mention to you that he had talked to 
Colonel North aiter that? 

A I don't believe so. Ha never mentioned to me. 

2 Did ha aver mention to you that he had given Roy 
Godson the names of any people who might wish to contribute 
to the cause in Nicaragua? 

A I do not believe ha did. I don't believe he ever--I 
do not recall him mentioning that to me, and I don't believe 
he gave ma names . 

e To youz knouledga, did ha hava anything to do with 
fund-raising for Nicaragua? 

A Not to my knowledge. Not speciiically , other than 
I think ha halpad ma — you know, ha arranged the room at the 
Racquet Club that night because Z wasn't a member. 

2 Old you talk to Terry Slaasa after that meeting 



UNCLASSIFIED 



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HIR1914002 



UNClilSSIFIED 



PAGE 63 



that night? Did you taik to hin in th« naxt day or so? 

A I probably did. I don't t«call. 

2 Did he call you, or did you call him? 

A I don't lAcall specifically talking to hin. I just 
think that it's logical that I night have, and I therefore 
don't recall whether I called hin or he called me. 

2 Did you ever meet any other officials of the U.S. 
Government, other than Colonel North, in relation to these 
activities or these projects that we have discussed today? 

A I did not. 

2 No one else on the White House staff? 

A No one . 

2 Did you ever meet any other Individuals who were 
introduced to you or referred to you by Roy Godson or 
Colonel North, other than Tom Dowling? 

A No one . 

2 But it is your testimony that you talked to Colonel 
North in the summer of 1986 again? 

A At the latest, it was the summer of '86. It may 
have been the spring of '86. 

S Did you withdraw from this sort of effort to be of 
assistance after the meeting in November in Philadelphia? 

A No. I just didn't have any — I didn't have any ideas 
of who else to go to, and I was very busy, and just one 
thing led to another, and the next thing you Know it was 



UNCLASSIFIED 



258 



KAHE' HIX19II002 



UNCLASSIFIE 



PAGE 



614 



15K8 
15149 
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fall of '86, and I callad and askad what X could da. and 
that's uhan Z sat Ton Dowllng. or tha spring o£ '86, 
whanavar It was. but It — batwaan tha tlaa oi tha itaatlng in 
Phlladalphla and I mat Tom OoHllng, it was just a patiod of 
balng too busy or not having anything to suggast. 

S In addition to Fathar Oowllng asking you to set up 
thasa spaaklng angagamants, did ha mantlon to you tha need 
for money^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^f or anything ha was 
doing? 

A Ha did not. 



ifimsim 



259 



NAHE 
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«NCUSS!fl£0 



HIR19lt002 '*'■ " VBafl IVIJII || || PAGE 65 

MR. ALBRIGHT: You KnoW/ thes« questions have been 
askftd and ansuarad. I just don't think it's iaii to ask the 
same questions thtea or iour times. 

MR. OLIVER: Wall, I'm sorry to be repetitive. I 
may have iorgottan some oi tham. 

MR. ALBRIGHT: All right. I didn't think it was — 
HR. OLIVER: I didn't take verbatim notes. 
HR. ALBRIGHT: i didn't think it was intentional. 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
Q Other than your attorney, have you discussed your 
testimony here today with any of the other individuals whose 
names have bean mentioned today? 
A I have not. 

fi You have not discussed this subject with Roy 
Godson? 

A I have not talked to Roy Godson ior quite a while . 
2 What about Scott Millar? 

A I have talked to Scott Millar in the course of 
business . 

fi You did not discuss this meeting with Scott Millar? 
A Ha knows I'm coming down. 

S So you did discuss the meeting with him? 
A Right. I mean I didn't discuss my testimony. I 
just discussed that I was coming down. 

e Did ha mantlon to you that ha had been contacted by 



UNCUSSIRED 



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'.*■=»! 



r-y, 



Hxni' 

1583 
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1S8S 
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HZI19U002 

this eonmitt**? 

A Ha did 




PAGE 



66 



e 

Sl*as«? 
A 

e 

A 

e 

A 



S What did ha say? 

A Just that. 

fi That ha had baan eontactad by tha comaittaa? 

(Hltnass nods haad.l 
fi And nothing alsa? 

(Hitnass shakas haad.l 

Did you discuss your cosing haxa today Mlth Tarry 



I 



I did. 

And what did you say to hiM? 
Just that Z was cosing . 
Hhat did ha say to you? 

Hall, Z askad his ii Z should gat an attornay. Ha 
said ha didn't think Z xaally naadad ona, but ii Z uantad 
to. ha would raprasant aa sinoa ha's an attoznay, and Z 
said — and, you know, things lika that. Z didn't discuss any 
contant. Z told hia Z didn't think Z had anything to hida. 
Ka said ha agzaad, and Z said — you knew. 

ft Did you avaz zacaiya any lattazs fzoa Colonal Korth 
oz anybody in tha Hhita Housa thanking you ioz youz aiiotts? 
A No. 
fi Did it avaz ooeuz to you that this aonay i< 




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Hxnt 

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HIX19it002 



ONCUISSIFe 



PAGZ 67 




A Could b* 9lv«n dliaotly? 
e loi 
A To| 

Q y«s. 

A Httll, I think it occuzzad to a« that th«t« uara 
various sourcas that nonay could hava coaa iron but that 
appazantly thosa sourcas uaran't availabla or thay wouldn't 
hava askad us to halp. 

e Did thay tall you thosa sourcas waran't availabla? 

A I think that Roy Godson told ma that, whatavar, 
that this was a spaciiic projact and that thosa funds wara 
baing usad for othar projacts. 

fi Did you avar hava any knowladga oi whara tha monay 
that was raisad — whara it actually want? 

A I absoluta--nona. 

fi Hhan tha notation was itada about how do wa iiaka 
arrangaaants for tha nonay — I'll ba through in Just a minuta, 
Counsal — did Soy Godson mantion any bank accounts or giva any 
diractions as to how tha «onay should ba sant or whara it 
should ba sant? 

A I don't racall that. I — I hasitata to say now 
baoausa Z just don't racall how wa did that. My Inpression 
is that Z hookad up — Z intzoduoad tha paopla whosa nanas wa 
hava Bantlonad to toy Godson) Z told thaa about him. I 
baliava what happanad It that If thay wara intazastad in 



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KAnE = 

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leau 

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HIR194002 



ONCLASSIFIED 



PXGE 68 



giving monay> thay contactad him ditactly, but I don't 
raally tacall tha machanics of this, bacausa onca again, I 
maan, wa'za talking about potantially two paopla, so it 
wasn't lika somathing that was happaning ovaz and ovar 
again, that thaza was a zoutina astablishad. I just don't 
zecall . 

S Did anyona avaz nantion to you uhara monay might 
have baan sant? 

A Tha only thing I zaally zamambaz is that thara wara 
cartain charitabla organizations Mhosa namas I navaz haard 
who might ba abla to taka monay. On tha othaz hand, thara 
uas a discussion by Roy that parhaps thaza uaran't any 
chazitabla ozganizations that could taka this monay, and 
thazafoza it would hava to ba a nonchazitabla contzibution 
ii paopla waza going to giva tha monay. Thosa waza the kind 
o£ discussions I recall. I don't zecall specific names. 

2 Did ha mention soma specific namas of charitable 
organizations ? 

X I do not zamembaz him mentioning any specific 
namas, and I know that the namas that Z hava zead in the 
paper don't mean anything to me . I don't remember hearing 
of them. 

e Did he mention the Heritage Foundation? 

A Hell, Z — it's hard for me to remember if Godson 
mentioned the Heritage Foundation because I am very much 



UNCUSSiriED 



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NAME 
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HIR19(4002 



ONCUSSIFIED 



PAGE 69 



aware of the Heritage Foundation, and I know the Scaife 
Organization is big supporters of the Heritage Foundation. 
so it's hard for me to separate whether Roy Godson mentioned 
the Heritage Foundation. I think in the discussions, when 
you're thinking about conservative organizations, the 
Heritage Foundation, you know, comes to mind, so it's hard 
for me to remember. 

2 So you would have remembered, you think, if he 
mentioned the Heritage Foundation if you were so aware of 
it? 

A Hell. I think if he had said. ''We're going to put 
the money through the Heritage Foundation. ' ' I would have 
remembered, but I don't. I believe that he never said that, 
fi Do you know whether Mr. Heads or nr . Hacaleer ever 
received a letter of thanks of any kind from the President 
or from Colonel North? 

A I do not know. I don't know if--I don't know for 
sure if either one of them did anything, so I don't know if 
they got a letter. 

HR. OLIVER: I don't have any further questions. 

HR. FRYHAK: I have no further questions. 

HX. ALBRIGHT: Thank you very much. 

HR. rRYHAN: This is all off the record. 

(Discussion off the record.] 

HR. FRYHAK: On the record. 



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uNCussra 



HIR1914002 IIIVIII nUIJII IkW PAGE 70 

HR. ALBRIGHT: Pursuant to 6.9 of the rules oi the 
Salttct Commlttaa/ ua would like to inspect the transcript of 
this deposition, and ue would also respectfully request the 
chaixitan, in fairness, to provide a copy of the transcript 
to the witness through his counsel since none of the 
testinony in this session involves classified information. 

Thank you. 

MR. FRYMAK: On the record, I would refer you to 
Rule 7.5, which says that if a witness's testimony is 
transcribad--and this relates to dapositions--he shall be 
furnished with an opportunity to review a copy. Ko later 
than five days thereafter, the staff shall enter the 
changes, if any, requested by the witness with a statement 
of the witness's reasons for the changes, and the witness 
shall be instructed to sign the transcript. You will be 
given, or the witness will be given that opportunity as 
provided in rule 7.5. 

If you want to make a further request for a copy of 
the transcript, I ask you to do so in writing either in a 
latter to ma, which I will pass on, or you can address the 
letter dlzaotly to the chairman with such a request. 

HR. ALBRIGHT: I appreciate your observations, and 
I would suggest that we go by the rules as they should 
appropriately be interpreted, and you have our assurance of 
cooperation in regard to complying with the rules. 



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mmm 



NAME! HII1194002 w ■ • '- — p^gj 7, 



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1709 

1710 



MR. FRYHAN: Okay. 

iHharaupon, at 7=25 p.n., th« taking oi tha 
daposition Mas concluded. ) 



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L,^ TKANSCRIPT 



OF PROCEEDINGS 



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UNITED STATES SENATE 



"^^i^/87 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



®i!!i5SfWff^'- 



DEPOSITION OF BRUCE HOOPER 



uN6ussra. 



Partially Declassified/Released on 

under provisions of E liars' '^" 

by N.Menan. National Secu4co„nd, 

Washington, D. C. 




Thursday, April 2, 1987 



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UNITED STATES SENATE 
SELECT COMMITTEE ON 
SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 
IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 
DEPOSITION OF BRUCE HOOPER 

Washington, D.C. 
Thursday, April 2, 1987 
Deposition of BRUCE HOOPER, called for examination 
pursuant to notice of deposition, at the offices of the 
Select Committee, Room 901, Hart Senate Office Building, at 
9:05 a.m., before GARY S. HOWARD, a Notary Public within 
and for the District of Columbia, when were present: 
W. THOMAS MC GOUGH , JR., Esq. 
Associate Counsel 

United States Senate Select Committee on 
Secret Military Assistance to Iran and 
the Nicaraguan Opposition 
Room 901, Senate Hart Office Building 
Washington, D.C. 



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LARRY EMBREY, Esq. 



Senate Select Committee 
WILLIAM DAVIS, Esq. 
KEN BUCK, Esq. 
THOMAS FRYMAN, Esq. 

House Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions With Iran 



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P-P-0-C-E-E-D-I-N-G-S ^^ 

Whereupon, 

BRUCE HOOPER 
was called as a witness and, having been first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION 

BY MP. MC GOUGH: 
Mr. Hooper, my name is Tom McGough. I'm associate 
counsel to the Senate Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition. As you 
may know, we're here this morning pursuant to Senate 
Resolution 23, a copy of which will be made available to 
you, if you would like to take a look at it. That 
resolution allows the committee and its staff to subpoena 
witnesses and to interrogate them in depositions, and we 
are here for that purpose today. 

You've been placed under oath, which means that 
your testimony is subject to the penalties provided by 
Title 18 of the United States Code, Chapter 79, government 
perjury, obviously, to tell the truth. 

Are you aware that you have the right to counsel 
in this proceeding? t 



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A I am. 



liiiolnoSllllU 



And are you electing today to appear without 
counsel? 

A I am. 

All right. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let us mark as Deposition Exhibit 1 
a copy of the subpoena served upon you, I believe, if you 
take a look at it, Mr. Hooper. 

(The document referred to was marked 
for identification as Hooper 
Deposition Exhibit No. 1.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Is that, in fact, the subpoena requiring your 
appearance here today? 
A Yes, it is. 

And does it have certain attachments to it? 
A Yes, it does. 

And those attachments require you to bring with 
you certain documents. 
Is that right? 
A Yes. 
All right. And you provided those documents 



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^ •■'0 01 01 

ryhoward 1 yesterday to Mr. Davis? 

2 A Yes. 

3 That's the gentleman seated to your left. Is that 

4 right? 

5 A Correct. 

6 Are the documents you produced all the documents 

7 responsive to that subpoena, to the best of your knowledge, 

8 information and belief? 

9 A Yes, with the exception of Item O, tax record of 

10 any kind, which I didn't have in my files anything that 

11 would be what I thought was applicable to this proceeding. 

12 VJhat do you mean by applicable? 

13 A I don't know what tax records you were looking 

14 for. 

15 All right. With that qualification, are the 

16 remainder of the requests in the subpoena fulfilled by the 

17 documents you provided to the committee? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Let me show you a stack of documents that were 

20 provided to me yesterday by Mr. Davis. For the record, I'd 

21 like for you to examine those and, to the best of your 

22 knowledge, indicate it those are in fact the documents that 



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'20 01 01 

ryhoward 1 you produced yesterday? 

2 A Do you want me to enumerate them? 

3 Why don't I do this -- as you look at them, hand 

4 them to me and I will just identify them for the record. 

5 A Okay. 

6 1 don't think they have to be marked as deposition 

7 exhibits, but I'd like a record made of their existence. 

8 The first is a copy of two checks drawn on the 

9 Elizabeth S. Hooper Foundation, Checks No. 1175 and 1179, 

10 one dated January 28th, 1986 and the other dated May 27th, 

11 1986. 

12 A The second page of this is missing. That's simply 

13 a letter that I was sent. 

14 We have a second page on that, I'm sure. 

15 A Okay. 

16 This is a two-page letter which we do have the 

17 second page. It's just not here — dated February 21st, 

18 1986, on White House stationery, addressed, "Dear Spitz." 

19 I think this is the second page we're referring to 

20 (indicating). 

21 A That's correct. 

22 All right. J^'ll substitute that. The third one is 



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a letter dated February 21, or I should say a flimsy copy 
of a letter not on a letterhead, dated February 21, 1986, 
to Jane E. McLaughlin from Eileen M. Maguire, M-a-g-u-i-r- 
e. 

The next is a letter dated March 11, 1986, 
addressed to a Mr. Channell, signed by Bruce H. Hooper, 
with a check at the bottom drawn on the Killeshandra 
Foundation. 

A It's a duplicate, I believe. 

There are two of those. 

A And this is simply a copy of the same check that 
is shown on that. 

You can set those aside. They appear to be 
duplicates. 

A These are additional correspondence from Channell 
to me (indicating. ""^ 

All right. This would be a letter dated April 16, 
1986, from Carl Russell Channell addressed, "Dear Mr. 
President," with the note at the top margin, "Dear Bruce, 
for your information. Spitz." 




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A I gave him that. 

This is a letter dated May 5, 1986, on the 
letterhead of Bruce H. Hooper, and signed by Bruce H. 
Hooper, addressed to Mr. Carl Russell Channell. 

This is a letter dated May 6th, 1986, on the 
stationery of the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty, signed by Jane E. McLaughlin, addressed to Mr. 
Bruce Hooper. 

There should be a second page to that Telex. 
A I think so, yes. 
Yes, I think that's it. 
A Yes. 

All right. A Mailgram addressed to Mr. Bruce H. 
Hooper, Fidelity Court Building, from Spitz Channell and 
Jane E. McLaughlin, apparently dated June 9th, 1986. 

Another Mailgram dated June 26th, 1986, to Mr. 
Hooper from Spitz Channell. 

A statement with the handwritten note, postmarked 
12/16/86, entitled, "liBtatement by Carl Pussell Channell, 



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'^■'20 01 01 

ryhoward 1 president of NEPL." 

2 Is the handwriting postmarked 12/16/86 yours? 

3 A I believe that was done in our office. It's not my 

4 writing, but it may have been someone working in our office 

5 that noted that. 

6 All right. This is Hay 27th, 1986, a flimsy of a 

7 letter to Miss Jane E. McLaughlin from Bruce Hooper. 

8 Next is a printed invitation for a special 

9 reception to be held on Monday, July 21, 1986, with a 

10 handwritten note, "No, n-o, and "called regrets, 7/17/86." 

11 Can you identify the initials on that, if you 

12 would? 

13 A The note is mine. Mrs. Stowell called the 

14 regrets. 

15 And how do you spell Mrs. Stowell for the Court 

16 Reporter? 

17 A S-t-o-w-e-1-1. 

18 All right. The next is a letter dated July 23rd, 

19 1986, on National Security Council letterhead, addressed, 

20 "Dear Bruce," and signed "Oliver L. North." 

21 The next is a check drawn on the account of Bruce 

22 H. Hooper, Check No. 46.41 on Mellon Bank East in 



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ONCLASSIFIED 



r-->o 01 01 VI •^— — ^ 11 

ryhoward 1 Philadelphia to the Anti-Terrorist American Cominittee. 

2 This is a letter dated September 3rd, 1986, from 

3 Jane E. McLaughlin to Bruce H. Hooper, on the stationery of 

4 the National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

5 Attached to it are letters from Robert H. Michel, M-i-c-h-e- 

6 1, Trent Lott, L-o-t-t, Bruce P. Cameron, C-a-m-e-r-o-n , 

7 Richard Ray, R-a-y, and Robert L. Livingston. 

8 Next is a letter to Mr. Carl Russell Channell, 

9 dated October 17, 1986, from Elliott Abrams on the 

10 stationery of the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter- 

11 American Affairs. 

12 Next is a letter dated November 11, 1986 to 

13 Colonel Oliver L. North from Bruce H. Hooper. 

14 Next is a letter on the stationery of the Free 

15 World Foundation, dated January 10, 1987, to Bruce H. 

16 Hooper from Jane E. McLaughlin. 

17 A This is an extra copy of something to which you 

18 referred. 

19 An extra copy of the statement. This is a magazine 

20 or a publication entitled "The Nicaraguan Images: A 

21 Visitor's Notebook," apparently an excerpt from a 

22 publication called "THe Christian Century," four pages. 



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ryhoward 1 Next is an item, a statement of Jose Thomas 

2 Altamirano, A-1-t-a-m-i-r-a-n-o, seven pages in length. 

3 That (indicating) shouldn't be stapled on that. 

4 A No. This letter refers to that magazine article. 

5 All right. This is a letter dated May 13, 1986, 

6 referring to "The Christian Century" article on the 

7 National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 

8 letterhead, signed by Jane E. McLaughlin. 

9 Finally, there is a report with a cover page that 

10 reads: "This report was produced under an unrestricted 

11 grant from the National Endowment for the Preservation of 

12 Liberty." It is 32 ages in length. 

13 To the best of your recollection, Mr. Hooper, were 

14 there any other documents that you brought with you that we 

15 did not review? 

16 A I had a copy of a letter of May 2nd that was 

17 signed by Oliver North. I don't know if I gave that to you 

18 or not. 

19 Yes. 

20 A Do you recall that? If not, I might have it. 

21 We do have a copy of that letter, I believe, in 

22 another file. 



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A All right. That is the one to which I just 
referred . 

All. right. Let us get some personal data, if we 
could, from you, Mr. Hooper. Could you state your full 
name, please? 

A Bruce Henry Hooper. 

What is your home address? 

A 




What is your business address? 
A Room 220, Fidelity Court Building, 259 Padnor- 
Chester Road, Radnor, Pennsylvania 19087. 



v;hat is your date of birth? 

January 4, 1931. 

Do you recall your social security number? 





A 



A 

Mr. Hooper, could you tell us your educational 
background, please? 

A I went to the University of Pennsylvania during 
the years 1948 and 1952. I went to Marine Corps School at 
Ouantico in March of 1953. I went to naval air training 



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ryhoward 1 How long did you serve in the military? 

2 A Approximately 4-1/2 years active duty and 

3 approximately 7 years active reserve duty. 

4 What was the highest rank you achieved? 

5 A Major, United States Marine Corps Reserve. 

6 When you left active duty with the Marine Corps, 

7 how were you employed? 

8 A I went to work in 1957 with the Interstate Oil 

9 Transport Company of Philadelphia, which was a family-owned 

10 and operated company. 

11 How long did you remain with Interstate? 

12 A I remained with Interstate until 1981 and 

13 thereafter, as a consultant to the successor company until 

14 1983. 

15 What was your final position in 1981 with 

16 Interstate? 

17 A Vice president, sales and marketing. However, the 

18 name of the corporation had changed to lOT Corporation. 

19 What was the principal line of business of lOT 

20 Corporation? 

21 A Transportation of petroleum products by barge and 

22 tanker. * 



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ryhoward 1 Had you remained a consultant to lOT from 1981 

2 until 1983? 

3 A The name of the company changed in 1981 to Sonat, 

4 S-o-n-a-t, Marine, Incorporated, a division of Southern 

5 Natural Resources. 

6 V?ere you otherwise employed — were you employed 

7 in addition to being a consultant from 1981 to 1983, or 

8 were your consulting duties with lOT full time? 

9 A No, they were not full time; they were part time. 

10 I had no other wage employ. 

11 What occurred in 1983? Did you retire or did you 

12 accept other employment? 

13 A My consultancy expired. It was for 18 months and 

14 it expired in 1983. 

15 All right. Did you accept other employment at 

16 that time? 

17 A Not quite at that time, not wage employment. 

18 When was the next employment you accepted? 

19 A Well, this is employment without salary, if that's 

20 suitable. I'm a director and part owner from 1985 of a 

21 company called United States Golf Management, Incorporated, 

22 which is a company trtbt manages municipal golf courses. 



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mostly in Delaware Valley. 

All right. And that's from 1985 and that would be 
to the present time? 

A That's correct. 

Have you had any other business affiliations, 
directorships? 

A Directorships, but not for profit. 

All right. I was going to qualify that. There 
came a time, did there not, Mr. Hooper, when you came into 
contact with an organization called National Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty; also we'll call it NEPL. 

A Right. 

VJhen was the first time you heard of NEPL? 

A The first time I heard of NEPL was sometime in 
January of 1986. 





From whom did you hear it? 

P 

I heard it from Ralh Hooper, a brother. 



Do you know how Ralph Hooper heard of NEPL? 
No, I don't know how he heard of it. 
Can you tell me what you heard from Ralph about 
NEPL at that time? 

A At that time< my first recollection was that it 



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was an organization that we felt was going to supply aid to 
the Contras and to their efforts. To the best of my 
recollection, he told me that he was going to meet in 
Washington at a meeting evidently formed by NEPL with 
President Reagan. 

When you had this discussion with your brother, 
did he indicate what kind of aid NEPL was going to provide 
to the Contras? 

A I don't recall. 

Did he indicate whether it was -- we're going to 
draw a distinction here between lethal and nonlethal aid, 
if I could — and that's military hardware versus -- 

A Well, what I'm saying, I'm talking about January 
of 1986. The first indication that it was going to be aid 
was prior to January 28th, upon which basis we in the 
Elizabeth Hooper Foundation agreed to send to NEPL $30,000, 
which was done on January 28th. > 

That would be 1986. 

A Correct. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark as Deposition Exhibit 



1 — 



THE COURT REJfORTER: Didn't we mark the subpoena 



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MR. MC GOUGH: That's right. Deposition Exhibit 2. 
THE COURT REPORTER: No. 2. 

(The document referred to was marked 
for identification as Hooper 
Deposition Exhibit No. 2.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
All right, a copy of the document that you 
referred to earlier. It includes a check drawn on the 
Elizabeth Hooper Foundation, dated January 28th, 1986, in 
the amount of $30,000. 

Does that check bear your signature? 
A Yes. 

And does it bear Mr. Hooper's signature? 
A Yes. 

What is the Elizabeth S. Hooper Foundation? 
A The Elizabeth S. Hooper Foundation is a 501(c)(3) 
organization, foundation. 

For what purpose does it exist? 
A The purposes are as broad as the mandate that's 
allowed under 501(c)(3). It was formed around 1967 and has 
given monies to a bro4d variety of charitable and 



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educational institutions over the years. 

At the time you signed this check, or up to the 
time you signed this check, had you seen any written 
literature from NEPL? 

A I had not. 

Do you know if your brother Ralph had seen any 
written literature? 

A I believe he had. 

Do you know what kind of written literature? 

A No, sir, I have not looked at it. 

Prior to signing that check, did you discuss with 
your brother Ralph the purposes to which this $30,000 
donation would be put? 

A Yes. It was my understanding, upon agreeing to 
this, that it would go for aid to the contras. 

Let me ask if at that point, prior to signing this 
check for $30,000, you inquired or knew what kind of aid 
that would be supplied? 

A It was told to me that it would be humanitarian or 
nonlethal aid. 

And who told that to you? 

A Ralph Hooperk It had to be he because up to this 



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ryhoward 1 time, I had no contact with NEPL, personally. 

2 Did you, yourself, make any attempt to check into 

3 the bona fides of NEPL or investigate them beyond what 

4 Ralph may have told you? 

5 A I did not at this time. 

6 MR. MC GOUGH: Let me have this marked as 

7 Deposition Exhibit 3, if I could. 

8 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 3. 

9 (The document referred to was marked 

10 for identification as Hooper 

11 Deposition Exhibit No. 3.) 

12 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

13 1 show you what has been marked as Deposition 

14 Exhibit 3, and I believe that's one of the documents that 

15 you've produced today. 

16 A Yes. 

17 That is the cover letter that went over the 

18 $30,000 check. Is that correct? 

19 A That's correct. 

20 Is that a different contribution from the January 

21 28th contribution, or is that the cover letter that went 

22 over that check? / 

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A No, I assume that it is the same check because, to 
the best of my knowledge, that is the only $30,000 check 

that went to NEPL. 

And can you explain why the cover letter is dated 
February 21, 1986? And I believe there's a mention of a 
missing check. 

A The letter says, "Enclosed is the missing check 
for $30,000 from Ralph W. Hooper." 

To your knowledge, was this check missing for a 
while or why there might have been a three- or four-week 

gap? 

A That's the first time I paid attention to that. I 

don't know. 

Q All right. Did there come a time when you 

received direct contact from a NEPL solicitor? 

A My first contact with NEPL was probably in 
February, and it would have been — it was a phone call 
from Jane McLaughlin. 

Can you tell me what she told you in the phone 
call, as best you can recollect at this point? 

A As best I can recollect, she appealled for more 
money for Contra aid./ And after thinking about it for a 



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ryhoward 1 while, I decided that I would come up with some more money 

2 for Contra aid. 

3 Again, what kind of aid did she indicate would be 

4 provided for? 

5 A Nonlethal, humanitarian aid to the Contras. 

6 Did she specifically tell you that it would be 

7 humanitarian and nonlethal, not necessarily in those terms, 

8 but — 

9 A I can't recall her conversation, but let's say I 

10 understood that. Whether she said that or not — 

11 It was your understanding at that point that it 

12 would be nonlethal aid? 

13 A Yes. 

14 1 show you a letter dated March 4, 1986. 

15 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark that as an exhibit. 

16 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 4. 

17 (The document referred to was marked 

18 for identification as Hooper 

19 Deposition Exhibit No. 4.) 

20 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

21 Do you recall receiving that letter? 

22 A I never saw this letter before today. 



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ryhoward 1 Just for the record, this is a letter dated March 

2 4, 1986, marked as Deposition Exhibit 4, addressed to Mr. 

3 Ralph Hooper. This would be your brother Ralph. Is that 

4 correct? 

5 A Yes. 

6 From Jane E. McLaughlin. And it bears Bates stamp 

7 no. JH000033, four zeros and two threes. 

8 So , to the best of your knowledge, you have never 

9 seen that letter before? 

10 A I have never seen that letter. 

11 Did your brother, Ralph Hooper, mention to you 

12 anything about that letter? 

13 A Not to my recollection. 

14 Let me show you — 

15 MR. MC GOUGH: May I have this marked as 

16 Deposition Exhibit No. 5? 

17 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 5. 

18 (The document referred to was marked 

19 for identification as Hooper 

20 Deposition Exhibit No. 5.) 

21 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

22 This is the tover letter dated March 11, 1986, and 



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^^420 01 01 

ryhoward 1 the check for $15,000, which I believe you produced. 

2 Is that right? 

3 A Yes. I also point out that here is the back of 

4 that check and that should not be on your other documents. 

5 That's right. 

6 A This is my letter (indicating). 

7 And that is the check drawn on the Killeshandra 

8 Foundation in the amount of $15,000. 

9 Is that right? 

10 A Right. 

11 What is the Killeshandra Foundation? 

12 A The Killeshandra is a family foundation whose 

13 trustees are myself, my wife, Eileen S. Hooper, E-i-1-e-e- 

14 n. 

15 And what is it — 

16 A And two others, if you want to know. 

17 I'm sorry. Sure. 

18 A Daughter, Cynthia Belle; son, Thornton Hooper, T-h- 

19 o-r-n-t-o-n. 

20 How long has it been in existence? 

21 A This foundation has been in existence from about 

22 1982, but it had a naie change approximately two years 



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later, from Bruce H. and Eileen S. Hooper Foundation to 
Killeshandra Foundation. The reason for that was the 
monicker of our names was just too inconvenient and the 
name Killeshandra struck me because it is the town nearby 
to which my mother was born. 

All right. Now what are the purposes of the 
Killeshandra Foundation? 

A This foundation is a 501(c)(3) and has a broad 
mandate thereunder. But these monies go to various local 
charities and educational institutions, not necessarily in 
Delaware Valley. 

To the best of your recollection, what was your 
next contact with or from NEPL? 

A My next contact, the date of which I don't recall, 
it was a telephone conversation, was between me and Jane 
McLaughlin. 

Let me back up for one moment. What was your 
understanding of the urposes to which this $15,000 
donation was going to be made? 

A My understanding is it was going to Contra aid, 
but I can't quote conversations verbatim that I had. 

Now, up to tRe point of this contribution, had you 



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ryhoward 1 received any written materials, you personally received any 

2 written materials from NEPL? 

3 A No, because if I had, I'd have them with me, and I 

4 have nothing other than what I brought you. 

5 Had you dealt with anyone at NEPL other than Jane 

6 McLaughlin? 

7 A No. 

8 Had you conducted any independent investigation of 

9 NEPL? 

10 A No. 

11 You said that the $15,000 contribution was to go 

12 to Contra aid. Again, what was your understanding or 

13 perhaps, if it was a different understanding, what was your 

14 understanding of the type of aid that would be provided? 

15 A My understanding at that time, it would be 

16 supplies to the Contras that were not armanents, military 

17 hardware, ammunition, to put it in a negative sense. 

18 All right. Now let's bounce up ahead again. We're 

19 talking about a telephone conversation that you had. 

20 Is that correct? 

21 A Yes. I can't recall the date, but I may have had 

22 a couple of conversatdons, more with her because she called 



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with her, a meeting was arranged wherein I would come to 
Washington and meet with Colonel North in his office. 

To the best of your recollection, did you receive 
any written communications or material on NEPL prior to the 
meeting with Col. North? 

A I have no record and no recall of any other. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let me have this marked as whatever 
the next deposition exhibit is. 

THE COURT REPORTER: Six. 
MR. MC GOUGH: Six. 

(The document referred to was marked 
for identification as Hooper 
Deposition Exhibit No. 6.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
Mr. Hooper, I show you Deposition Exhibit 6, 
which, for the record, is a letter dated April 3, 1986, on 
the stationery of the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty, addressed to you from Jane E. 
McLaughlin, bearing Bates stamp no. JM000026. 

I'd ask you to read that letter, if you would. 
A I have seen jrhis letter, but I did not have it in 



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my files. But I do recall this letter. 

All right. You do recall that letter, but. you did 
not produce it today. 

Is that correct? 

A No, I did not because I didn't have it. 

All right. Can we agree that this letter predated 
your meeting with Col. North? 

A Yes. 

Now let's focus our attention, if we could, on the 
second paragraph of that letter, where Ms. McLaughlin 
writes: "Not simply humanitarian aid, but more 
importantly, the effective military aid needed if the 
Freedom Fighters are to continue successfully resisting 
attacks by Soviet-supplied Mi-24/HIND D gunships." 
Do you recall reading that paragraph? 

A Yes. 

And did that revise your opinion as to the type of 
aid that was being provided by the National Endowment for 
the Preservation of Liberty at all? 

A No, I referred to that paragraph, I would now, to 
the President's crucial campaign to achieve aid for Freedom 



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ryhoward 1 So that was the President's campaign and not what 

2 you were contributing to? 

3 A I think at that time there was a campaign to get 

4 Contra aid passed in Congress and I recall it was to 

5 include military aid. 

6 All right. Let's go to the meeting on April 

7 30th — I believe it was on or about April 30th, 1986. 

8 A On or about . 

9 On or about, all right, with Col. North. Where 

10 did that meeting take place? 

11 A That meeting took place in his office. 

12 How did you get to his office? 

13 A I came from Wilmington, Delaware to Washington on 

14 the train. Jane McLaughlin met me. To the best of my 

15 recollection, we went right to his office. I'm not sure of 

16 the hour that we met, but I think it was in the morning. 

17 Up to that point, had you ever met Jane McLaughlin 

18 before? 

19 A I had not. 

20 Where was Col. North's office located? 

21 A It's in the Old Executive Office Building. 

22 Can you tel Jf me what occurred at that meeting? 



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A Jane McLaughlin and I went into the building and 
went up to the outer office of Col. North and sat and 
waited until he was ready to see us. And after a short 
delay, she and I went into his office, where we had some 
greeting. 

Was Col. North in uniform at that time? 

A I do not believe he was in uniform. 

Going into that meeting, what did you understand 

the purpose of it to be? 

P P 

A The purose of the meeting? For my puroses? 

Yes, what was the purpose of the meeting? 

A My purposes were twofold. One, I wanted a 
briefing from Col. North. I wanted to meet him. I had 
heard about him and I wanted to meet him and get a briefing 
on the situation in Central America, especially the 
Sandinista-Contra conflict. That was my one purpose. 

The second purpose, and this had to do with 
meeting in his office, was to give me a sense that the 
monies that we were giving to NEPL were going to go for 
Contra aid. 

You say that you had heard of Col. North going 
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ryhoward 1 had you heard? 

2 A Well, a day or two before that meeting, I heard 

3 his name spoken over television and I had heard his name, 

4 of course, prior to this, since I was coming down to meet 

5 him. His name was on television, along with two other 

6 gentlemen who were alleged targets of a possible 

7 assassination attempt. And that was just a day or two 

8 before I came down to Washington, which news I mentioned to 

9 him and told him that I had heard his name mentioned on 

10 national TV. It may have been the night before. And he 

11 asked me, was my picture on television? And I said, no, 

12 not on the program I saw. He said, that's good. I have 

13 four children. And he was happy that his picture was not 

14 on television. 

15 What occurred at the meeting itself? Can you tell 

16 me, as best you can recollect, what occurred? 

17 A Okay. He described to me the personalities of 

18 what I think are called the commandantes . I believe there 

19 are nine members of their ruling party, their backgrounds, 

20 education, family, how they got to their positions in their 

21 party. 

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fairly big map of Nicaragua, Honduras, maybe the rest of 
Central America, where I believe he told me some fighting 
had been taking place. And as I recall, it's called the 
"Parrot Beak" now. I recall that area. 

He told me also that he travelled often to Central 
America. He then told me about the Contras. This much I 
recall. He said there was a force of about^^^^^^H And I 
remember that because the newspapers at that time were 
talking about its being about 12,000. He said they had 
need for supplies, such as boots, uniform clothing, medical 
supplies. 

During this discussion, was Col. North referring 
to any documents or written material? 

A I don't recall his using any notebook to speak 
with me. 

Do you recall him using a spiral-bound notebook to 
talk? 

A No. 

Was there any discussion of armaments or what 
we've referred to as lethal aid during that meeting? 

A Lethal aid? No. 

Any discussion of armaments at all? 




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A In the context of talking about battles, there may 
have been. But I don't know. 

Did Col. North make any request of you or ask 
anything from you at that point at that meeting? 

A He did not. 

How did the meeting conclude? 

A Well, before we left, he asked if I should like 
some written material. And he showed it to me and, as I 
recall, it was State Department documents. The one which 
was bound that I recall was entitled or subtitled, 
"Revolution without Borders," and there were some other 
documents, a good many of which I had already seen because 
I do get State Department documents sent to me regularly. 
So I had probably seen all of them, and I took them with 
me. 

I didn't bring them today because I forgot and 
they're just State Department bulletins. They're nothing 
classified at all. 

Do you recall Col. North saying to you something 
along the lines of "There are some things I can't talk to 
you about on this side of Pennsylvania Avenue"? 

A No, I don't iTecall that statement. 



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ryhoward 1 You don't recall that statement at all, and 

2 specifically the "on this side of Pennsylvania Avenue' 

3 reference? 

4 A No, I don't recall that. 

5 VJhere did you go after the meeting with Col. 

6 North? 

7 A When we left, Jane McLaughlin and I had lunch at 

8 the Hay Adams, I believe it is. 

9 Did you have any conversations with Jane 

10 McLaughlin at that time? 

11 A Yes, I did. 

12 Could you relate those conversations? 

13 A Well, there was one thing that, to the best of my 

14 recollection, she brought up, and that was an airplane 

15 company manufacturer called Maule, M-a-u-1-e, which I think 

16 is in Georgia. I believe that she showed me a picture of a 

17 Maule aircraft, which is a single-engine, I think it's high 

18 wing light plane. And she told me that that plane cost 

19 about $65,000, that Maule was a supplier to the Contras, as 

20 I recall her telling me that. And there was some mention 

21 about a light plane having been lost -- that is shot down 

22 or crashed — recentlj^. 




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ryhoward 1 Was she showing you this with the request that 

2 you, in effect, purchase that airplane for the Contras? I 

3 mean, was it that specific? 

4 A No. I think it was given as an example of aid to 

5 the Contras, this light plane. Did I tell you she 

6 mentioned the figure of $65,000, as I recall? 

7 Do you recall a conversation with Ms. McLaughlin 

8 as you walked from the White House to the Hay Adams Hotel 

9 about how the Contra supply network worked? 

10 A I do not recall her telling me that at any time, 

11 the mechanics, if you're talking about, and I do not recall 

12 that. 

13 Do you recall asking her, how does this work? 

14 A No. 

15 Do you recall any reference by Ms. McLaughlin to a 

16 contact of Col. North's within the Contras who would notify 

17 him of their needs? 

18 A No, I don't recall that specifically. 

19 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as the next 

20 deposition exhibit. 

21 THE COURT REPORTER: This is 7. 

22 ' 




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ryhoward 1 (The document referred to was marked 

2 for identification as Hooper 

3 Deposition Exhibit No. 7.) 

4 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

5 1 show you Deposition Exhibit 7, which I believe 

6 was among the documents you produced this morning. 

7 A Yes, it is. 

8 It's a letter dated May 5, 1986 from you to Mr. 

9 Channell. 

. 10 Is that correct? 

11 A That's correct. 

12 At the time you wrote this letter, had you ever 

13 met Mr. Channell? 

14 A No. 

15 Had you ever met anyone other than Jane McLaughlin 

16 from NEPL? 

17 A No, I think not. 

18 In the fourth paragraph, you indicate that you 

19 would hope that NEPL would concentrate its efforts on 

20 Central and South America and the Caribbean where "all of 

21 us can agree on the nature of the problem today." 

22 To what protAem were you referring at that point? 



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ryhoward 1 A What problem? 

2 Uh huh, 

3 A In Central America? 

4 Yes . 

5 A The problem of the Nicaraguans being under the 

6 control of the Sandinista government, specifically, and the 

7 other problems of revolution that follow from that. 

8 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as 

9 Deposition Exhibit 8. 

10 THE COURT REPORTER: No. 8. 

11 (The document referred to was marked 

12 for identification as Hooper 

13 Deposition Exhibit No. 8.) 

14 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

15 Q Do you recognize that exhibit? 

16 A Yes. 

17 That is a letter dated May 6th, 1986, from Ms. 

18 McLaughlin to you, is it not? 

19 A Yes, it is. 

20 It refers, does it not, to a meeting with your 

21 brothers. 

22 Is that rigrft? 



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I believe the specific reference is, "I wanted to 
let you know that Ollie would be available to meet" — 

A Able to. 

I'm sorry. "Would be able to meet with your 
brothers, either here in Philadelphia, if they would like." 

Ollie — you understood that to be Colonel North. 
Is that right? 

A Yes. 

What was the meeting about? Had you requested a 
meeting for your brothers? 

A No, I had not. This was unsolicited, this 
statement . 

How many brothers do you have? 

A I have four. 

And Ralph being one of them. Who are the others? 

A Thornton Hooper, Adrian Hooper, Thomas Hooper. 

Do you know which of those brothers she was 
referring to in that paragraph? 

A It would have been my brothers Adrian and Tom, who 
are directors of the Elizabeth Hooper Foundation, I 



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ryhoward 1 Had you raised that possibility with her, that 

2 Adrian and Tom might be interested in meeting Col. North? 

3 A No, I had not raised this possibility with her. 

4 All right. 

5 A If I may elaborate — 

6 Sure. 

7 A — nothing ever came of that. I didn't reply to 

8 that offer. 

9 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's have this marked as the next 

10 deposition exhibit. 

11 THE COURT REPORTER; No. 9. 

12 (The document referred to was marked 

13 for identification as Hooper 

14 Deposition Exhibit No. 9.) 

15 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

16 1 show you Deposition Exhibit No. 9, a letter that 

17 appears to be from you to Ms. McLaughlin, dated May 27, 

18 1986. 

19 A Yes, that is mine. 

20 Is that the cover letter that you sent with your 

21 contribution? 

22 A That's the c^ver letter that went with the 




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$100,000 check from the Elizabeth Hooper Foundation. 

And I believe that's a part of Deposition Exhibit 
2, is it not? 

A That's correct. 

And that signature bears -- I mean that check 
bears two signatures. One is yours. Is that correct? 

A One is mine and the other is Thomas Hooper. 

And Thomas is your brother? 

A Yes. 

And also a trustee of the foundation. 

A That's correct. 

What, if anything, did you tell Thomas Hooper 
about the purpose of the contribution? 

A Thomas and Adrian, or Thomas would have been told 
that this was going for Contra aid. He would have also 
been told that it was within the purview of the foundation 
to do so. 

Would you have told him what kind of aid it was 
going for? 

A Would we, we would have said nonlethal aid, yes. 
I really don't recall a conversation, particularly, or a 



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ryhoward 1 My next question was going to be, would this have 

2 been taken up at a meeting of the trustees or regular 

3 meeting of the trustees? 

4 A No, this was an'informal approval because our 

5 meetings are held in June. This was an informal approval 

6 among the four of us. 

7 v/ould you have had to solicit the approval of two 

8 of your other brothers? Would you need three people in 

9 favor of that transaction? 

10 A I think so, yes. 

11 But there was no meeting and there would be no 

12 minutes of that meeting. 

13 Is that right? 

14 A I'm not sure whether there's minutes of that or 

15 not, frankly. I will look and see. 

16 Would you do that? 

17 A Sure. I'd better take a note. 

18 (Pause.) 

19 Now that letter includes, does it not, the 

20 statement, "Please have Ollie contact me to let me know 

21 what he is going to do with it, if that is possible." 

22 And, again, #011ie" is Col. North. Is that right? 



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ryhoward 1 A (Nods in the affirmative.) 

2 What did you mean, "if that is possible"? 

3 A If that is possible would be if he would be in a 

4 position to call me. 

5 Did you have any doubt about your right to know 

6 where the $100,000 was spent? 

7 A Is it okay if I refer to some notes, or would you 

8 rather I didn't? I had to write my thoughts down on this, 

9 but if you don't want me to, I can narrate it. 

10 You can refer to them, but they're going to become 

11 deposition exhibits if you do that. The choice is yours. 

12 A Well, it might be better. I just wrote this last 

13 night. 

14 Okay. Let's put a clip on it and mark it as a 

15 deposition exhibit, anything you're going to refer to. 

16 A Terrible penmanship, though. 

17 THE COURT REPORTER: This is No. 10. 

18 (The document referred to was marked 

19 for identification as Hooper 

20 Deposition Exhibit No. 10.) 

21 THE WITNESS; Now the reason I wrote this down is 

22 because I think, in c^der to make that sentence clear, it 



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(^'20 01 01 

ryhoward 1 has to be in some kind of order. 

2 Do you want me to read it? 

3 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

4 Either read it — but I think I have an 

5 outstanding question. 

6 A Go ahead. 

7 The question is, I believe the question was did 

8 you feel that you had a right to know where the $100,000 

9 was spent? 

10 A No . 

11 Why? 

12 A I felt that I had a right to know that NEPL was 

13 going to allow Col. North to direct where those monies 

14 would go. 

15 Do you want me to elaborate? 

16 (Nods in the affirmative.) 

17 A Jane McLaughlin had told me that all monies that 

18 we gave would go to aid for the Contras. Now, when I say 

19 all monies, I think the matter at this time was a future 

20 contribution. We had already given money. 

21 This was in her attempt to get us to give more 

22 money. Not only thatr it would all go to aid for the 



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Contras, but that it would be undiminished by overhead of 
NEPL or any other organization, okay? 

I did not trust entirely that what she said was 
the whole truth. The sentence in that letter of May 27th 
I'm referring to, I did not word that sentence directly in 
that it could have read to show my intent, "I want Ollie to 
assure me that he directed 100 percent of the monies that I 
am sending to aid to the Contras." 

I did not want, nor did I need to know how many 
boots, bandages, food supplies, et cetera, it was going to 
buy. 

I intended in this sentence to convey that I might 
be willing to check on the performance of NEPL, and I wrote 
a note which is somewhat irrelevant, but as an example, 
"Did donors want to provide Palm Springs mansions to the 
operators of PTL Club?" 

That I wrote last night. 
Just so the record is clear, this was written last 
night as you contemplated the deposition today? 
A Yes. 

I noticed that there were two pages of notes that 
you took out. The second, does it also deal with this 



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A It deals with the deposition, yes, but not exactly 
your question of the moment. 

Is it a document responsive to the subpoena that 
we served upon you? 

A Yes, I have no problem. 

If you have no problem, but let's put it out and 
mark it as an exhibit. Give it to the Court Reporter and 
he'll make it Exhibit 11. 

THE COURT REPORTER: No. 11 

(The document referred to was marked 
for identification as Hooper 
Deposition Exhibit No. 11.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
I'll just take a minute to examine it, if that's 
all right with you. 
(Pause. ) 
A Would you mind if I got copies of that? 
No, I'll make copies of it. Did you ever receive a 
reply specifically to that inquiry; that is, let me know 
what he is going to do with it? 



I never. 



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Did that concern you? 

A No, it really didn't. I just more or less let it 
pass by. And this is something I haven't told other people 
because it is irrelevant. My daughter was getting married 
on June 14th and I had more important things to do. 

If you had thought about it at that time, or when 
you thought about it at that time, did the lack of an 
answer cause you to suspect perhaps NEPL's bona fides 
regarding that $100,000? 

A It didn't. It, frankly, passed from my mind. 

Did you send a copy of this letter, by any chance, 
to Col. North? 

A No, sir, I did not. 

After that date, did you ever hear from or see 
Col. North again? 

A No, sir. Pardon me — by letter, allegedly by 
letter, yes, but no conversation or meeting. I think I have 
a letter that might be appropriate now. 

Let's mark it as an exhibit while we're on it. 
THE COURT REPORTER:^ T^j^ls JiO^. 12^- 



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r-70 01 01 

ryhoward 1 (The document referred to was marked 

2 for identification as Hooper 

3 Deposition Exhibit No. 12.) 

4 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

5 1 show you Deposition Exhibit 12. Is that the 

6 letter to which you were referring? 

7 A No, I'm referring to one of May 2nd, which is more 

8 in chronological sense. 

9 All right. That one I gave you marked Deposition 

10 Exhibit 11 is dated July 23 ~ Exhibit 12 is July 23. I 

11 have a copy of that letter, but I want to locate another 

12 copy of it to mark as an exhibit. 

13 MR. MC GOUGH: Make this Exhibit 13. 

14 THE COURT REPORTER: 13. 

15 (The document referred to was marked 

16 for identification as Hooper 

17 Deposition Exhibit No. 13.) 

18 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

19 Is this the letter that you received from Col. 

20 North? 

21 A Yes, it apparently is. 

22 All right. Tfou also received, did you not, what 



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has been identified as Exhibit 12; that is, a letter dated 
July 23. 

A Yes. 

So you got two letters from him, to the best of 
your recollection. 

A Yes. That's all I can recall. 

All right. After that time, after your donation of 
$100,000, did the people at NEPL continue to solicit your 
support? 

A Yes. 

And did you in fact continue to support them? 

A I didn't give support to NEPL, but I gave, in 
September, a personal check at the request of Jane 
McLaughlin to something that is called the Anti-Terrorism — 

American Committee. 

A — American Committee, yes. 

I show you what has been marked as Deposition 
Exhibit 14. 

(The document referred to was marked 
for identification as Hooper 
Deposition Exhibit No. 14.) 



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BY MR. MC GOUGH: 
That is the check that you gave to ATAC7 
A This is from my checking account, Bruce H. Hooper, 



yes. 



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What did you understand to be the lurpose of that 
contribution? 

A The purposes of this, my understanding, was to 
form and support a media campaign through television and 
written media to bring to the attention of voters in 
various congressional districts the votes of their 
congressmen who had voted against Contra aid. And the one 
name that she mentioned to me, and she may have mentioned 
others, but I can't recall, was Michael Barnes of Maryland. 

At this point, am I correct that you had not 
received back word on the disposition of your $100,000, 
either from Col. North or from NEPL? 

A No. 

And you nevertheless contributed an additional 
S3000 to a NCPL-sponsored political action committee. 
Is that a fair — 

A Whether it was NEPL-sponsored , it came from Jane 



McLaughlin. 



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The solicitation came from Jane McLaughlin. 

A The association, yes. 

At the time you made that contribution of $3000, 
did you make any further attempt to find out where your 
$100,000 contribution had been spent? 

A No. 

Why not? 

A I can't give you a reason; I just didn't. 

Did there come a time in November cf 1986 when you 
had lunch with Ms. McLaughlin and Mr. Channell? 

A Yes. 

Was that the first time that you had met Mr. 
Channell? 

A Yes. 

Can you tell me how that luncheon came about? 

A In a telephone conversation prior to that with 
Jane McLaughlin, I told her that I would be coming to 
Washington, D.C. on the 17th of November to attend a 
dinner, and that I could see her the next day. 

Therefore, she arranged for me to meet with her on 
the 18th of November. I met with her in her offices and 
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'"•20 01 01 



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lunch , 



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Where were their offices located? 

A I'm not sure of the address. I think I made a note 
on there. I couldn't read it. Their new offices. 



The newer offices. 

The newer offices, yes. 

All right. 

I don't know the address. 

Was there any discussion at lunch of the Contra 





A 



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effort? 

A To this extent. I was asked by Carl Channell, and 
maybe Jane, to donate somehow $10,000 to help Col. North 
make a secret trip, by that, a clandestine trip, private 
trip, to Central America, that this trip had to be paid for 
with private funds because it was meant to be a secret 
trip. 

And I gave no reply as to a yes or no to that 
request. The second request at that luncheon was to 
consider a co ntribution to help them operate or establish a 
radio station! 




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.ryhoward 1 To that request, I made no reply one way or 

2 another. 

3 Did you make any reply to their request for 

4 $10,000? 

5 A I made no reply. 

6 Was there a point in the conversation where you 

7 were asked to call Col. North by another name? 

8 A Yes. Carl Channell, I believe, said, "Let us 

9 refer to him as Green at this table." 

10 Now, did you find that request unusual, either by 

11 itself or in conjunction with the request for $10,000 to 

12 fund the trip? 

13 A Which request? 

14 The request that you refer to the name Green. 

15 A No, I didn't find that unusual at all because 

16 there were other diners within earshot. 

17 Did you find it unusual — you knew at that point, 

18 at that time, that Col. North was a government official? 

19 You knew that he was employed by the National Security 

20 Council? 

21 A Oh, yes. I had known that since much earlier. 

22 Did you finer it unusual that you were being 



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solicited for money to send a government official on a 
mission? 

A No, I did not find that unusual. 

Why not? 

A I didn't ask why. I just didn't ask why. 

Why not? 

A I really don't know how to answer the question. 

Well, let me see if I can set it up a little 
better, a little more clearly. 

You're aware that Col. North was an employee of 
the National Security Council. 

A Uh huh. 

You were aware that in the course of those duties 
at the National Security Council, he would indeed travel to 
places. 

Is that right? 

A Uh huh. 

Had you ever in your experience heard of a request 
of private donors to send a government official on a 
clandestine or nonclandestine mission? 

A I don't know that I heard of it, but I didn't find 
that unusual. If I nray explain. 



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.ryhoward 1 Please. 

2 A Government officials make secret trips. For 

3 instance, Kissinger to China. Now maybe he made that with 

4 private donations or covered his tracks. So I wouldn't 

5 find that unusual at all. 

6 You say covered his tracks. 

7 A Right, covered his tracks. When Kissinger went to 

8 China, he did it in a devious route, which I don't know how 

9 he did it, but evidently, nobody else knew, except a few 

10 people, that he went to China. 

11 So I assume that these high officials will make 

12 I trips that they can cover, so that is not unusual thinking 

13 to me. 

14 As a former military officer — 

15 A I think I understand that. From my education, I 

16 can understand that type of intelligence oeration, yes, 

K 

17 sir. 

18 You've heard of the Central Intelligence Agency, I 

19 gather. •^ 

20 A Yes, sir. 

21 And you know that they are the body that is 

22 responsible for clandestine activities in this country, or 



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'- -0 01 01 

.ryhoward 1 overseas, 

2 A That is one of them, yes. 

3 Let me ask the question this way. In your life, 

4 had you ever heard of, or are you aware of any other 

5 situation, apart from speculations how something might have 

6 happened, are you aware of any other situation where 

7 private donations were solicited to send a government 

8 official on a mission? 

9 A Not to my knowledge. 

10 Did you turn them down flat or did you tell them 

11 that you would consider their request? 

12 A I think I did not turn them down flat. I don't 

13 recall. I probably said, I'll think about it. That would 

14 be my style. 

15 MR. MC GOUGH: Let's mark this as the next 

16 deposition exhibit number. 

17 THE COURT REPORTER: This is 15. 

18 (The document referred to was marked 

19 for identification as Hooper 

20 Deposition Exhibit No. 15.) 

21 BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

22 Would you jult identify that for the record? 



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.ryhoward 1 A This is a letter which I wrote on November 11th, 

2 1986, to Col. Oliver North, in his office location. 

3 Did you ever receive a response to that letter? 

4 A No. 

5 After the $3000 contribution that's been marked as 

6 Exhibit 14, did you make any additional contributions to 

7 NEPL, ATAC or any other entity affiliated with them? 

8 A None whatsoever. 

9 To your knowledge, did your brothers or any of the 

10 foundations with which you're associated make any such 

11 contributions? 

12 I A To my knowledge, no. 

13 Other than Col. North, in the course of your 

14 dealings with NEPL, did you have contact with any other 

15 government officials, either personal or by correspondence? 

16 A Would you repeat that? 

17 Sure. Other than setting aside Col. North, in 

18 your dealings with NEPL or through NEPL, did you have 

19 contact with any other government officials? 

20 A No, if you don't include his secretary. I met her 

21 in the office. 

22 Other than nl. McLaughlin and Mr. Channell, did 



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10 01 01 

.ryhoward 1 you have any contact with any other NEPL people? 

2 A I met one Littledale, whose name is either Chris 

3 or Cliff Littledale, on the 18th of November in their 

4 offices. And I met that day one, Angela Davis of NEPL. 

5 And I may have greeted in a passing way some other 

6 employees in their office whose names I do not recall. 

7 Other than that meeting in November for lunch, did 

8 you have any other contact with Mr. Channell? 

9 A Yes. At that luncheon, he asked me early if I 

10 could stay in Washington that night to attend a dinner. 

11 And I first said, no. I thought I'd go back to the 

12 Philadelphia area. But he told me what the dinner was 

13 about and he persuaded me, and I was persuaded, I should 

14 say, to stay. 

15 It was black tie and I didn't have a tux, but one 

16 of his people lent me a bowtie. So I attended the dinner 

17 at, I believe it was the Mayflower Hotel, that was under 

18 the auspices of the Ethics and Policy Center of Mr. Ernest 

19 LeFeuver. It was a big dinner and an honor for William 

20 Buckley. President Reagan was speaking, which was 

21 persuasive reason for me to go. Charlton Heston was the 

22 MC. And I sat at Car^ Channell's table. 



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.ryhoward I Other than that evening, or that day, where you 

2 had lunch and dinner with Mr. Channell, did you have any 

3 other contact with Mr* Channell in your dealings with NEPL? 

4 A The next contact I had with Mr. Channell was a 

5 phone conversation that took place early in 1987, and I 

6 believe it was January. As a matter of fact, I know it was 

7 in January, but I can't remember what day. 

8 Who initiated the telephone conversation? 

9 A He called me and asked me to meet with his lawyer 

10 because he wanted me to give her. Alexia Morrison by name, 

11 some information. I said, what information? He said, 

12 well, you had a meeting with Col. North and Jane McLaughlin 

13 and I was not present and I'd like my lawyer to learn what 

14 was the content of that meeting. 

15 So he gave me her phone number and sometime later 

16 I contacted her because I was coming to Washington on or 

17 about February 7th, 1987, to go to a dinner at the 

18 Marriott. I told the woman that I could meet her Saturday 

19 afternoon and try to answer her inquiries. Which I did. I 

20 met with Alexia Morrison and Ms. Lubin, I think is her 

21 name, an associate in that firm. 

22 Ms. Lubin took notes and Ms. Morrison asked me 



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some questions, one, to tell me about the meeting with Col. 
North, which I did. And two, she had me verify 
contributions, all of which I had testified here today, 
which I think there are four different contributions that I 
had something to do with. 

And that was what she wanted. I asked Ms. 
Morrison, what is the matter here? And she said, for 
instance, I asked her, what's happened with Jane McLaughlin 
and Carl Channell? She said words to this effect — "I 
don't know what's happened to her, but she's gone and 
blabbed to the press," or words to that effect, okay? But 
I didn't pursue any details with her on what the matter at 
issue was. 

And that is the only contact I've had with Carl 
Channell, was that phone call and then the meeting at his 
request with Alexia Morrison. 

I note that, without marking it as an exhibit and 
burdening the record, you received a letter from Ms. 
McLaughlin on the letterhead of the Free World Foundation. 

A Yes. 

In January of 1987. Did you respond to that 



letter? 



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01 01 
iryhoward 1 A No. But I received a phone call from her sometime 

2 in — I can't recall the date of the phone call, I really 

3 can't. And she said that she had left association with 

4 Carl Channell and his organization. I can't remember how 

5 she stated it. She said, and I have to say in effect. I 

6 can't remember exact words, except she said, I was 

7 disgruntled or disenchanted because she felt that the 

8 donors and Col. North had been misled by Carl Channell. 

9 And she was bitterly disappointed and upset that it's 

10 happening. And that's what she told me. 

11 Did she say how they had been misled? 

12 A She did not say how she was misled and I didn't 

13 ask her. This was a telephone conversation and I did not 

14 feel like expanding on that conversation further than what 

15 she had offered, so I didn't ask her. 

16 Other than the contacts you related to us already, 

17 have you had any other contacts with people from NEPL, 

18 either who might presently be with them or who were at one 

19 time? 

20 A I don't think I gave it to you, but I received a 

21 cover letter with a newspaper ad from something called 

22 Sentinel recently. Is it appropriate? 



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~0 01 01 

iryhoward 1 Do you have it? 

2 A If I have it. 

3 If you have it, I'd like to see it. 

4 (Pause. ) 

5 A If I don't have it, I wonder if Bill Davis has it. 

6 (Pause.) 

7 I don't have it. 

8 Let me check with Bill. 

9 A Either that or I could have given it yesterday to 

10 Mr. Zornell. I've related this tale so much, I forget. 

11 This was simply a letter from something called Sentinel, 

12 that said, I'm enclosing this ad for your information. It 

13 was signed by somebody by the name of Flores, as I recall, 

14 F-1-o-r-e-s, of whom I had never heard. It was a one-page 

15 ad in the newspaper, and I can't even recall the total 

16 thrus't of it. It had to do with Nicaragua. 

17 How recently did you receive this? 

18 A It was a March newspaper, mid-March, and I just 

19 don't remember even what newspaper it was in. If I may 

20 elaborate, there was no request for money. It just said, 

21 enclosed, find this newspaper ad. 

22 Did you ever hear of something called the TOYS 



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Project? 



A I heard of TOYS through the news media in recent 
months, weeks. 

Outside what you read in the newspaper, did anyone 
ever mention or discuss the TOYS Project with you? 

A No, sir. 

Did you ever hear of an organization called 
International Business Communications, or IBC? 

A No, sir. 

Did you ever -- 

A May I say that I've heard this only through news 
media since. 

Outside what you've read in the newspapers. 

A Okay, no. 

Did you ever have any contact with a Richard 
Miller? 

A No, sir. 

Did you ever have any contact with a Frank or 
Francis Gomez? 

A No. 

Did you ever have any contact with a David Fi s h <tr? 



A No. 



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MR. MC GOUGH: Let's take a minute, Mr. Hooper, 
while I talk to my cocounsel here and see if there's 
anything we've missed. 
(Recess . ) 

MR. MC GOUGH: I believe Mr. Fryman has just a few 
questions that he wants to ask. 

EXAMINATION 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 
Mr. Hooper, first, I just want to note for the 
record that in advance of the deposition today, you were 
given a subpoena from the House of Representatives calling 
for your appearance here today. 

You had previously received the subpoena from the 
Senate and this morning you were given a subpoena from the 
House. 

A Oh, yes, correct. 

And you were also given copies of the House rules 
relating to this investigation. 
A Yes. 
And the resolution establishing the House Select 



Committee. 



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I believe you indicated you met yesterday with 
representatives of the independent counsel's office. 
Is that correct? 

A That's correct. 

Did you stay in Washington last night or did you 
return to Philadelphia? 

A I stayed. 

Did you stay in a hotel here in town? 

A I stayed in the Sheraton Grand Hotel. 

All right. You produced some notes this morning 
that you made last night in your hotel room that related to 
certain of the documents that have been marked as exhibits 
here today. 

A Yes. 

In connection with preparation of those notes, did 
you have any discussions with anyone? 

A No. 

Did you make any — 

A I talked with my wife last night and I discussed 
what had happened during the day. 

But did you discuss the substance of the notes 



with anyone? 



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UHCIASSIF 



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A No. 

Did you make any phone calls last night other than 
to your wife? 

A Yesterday, I talked to a lawyer by the name of 
Steve Shulman, and I went to his office. He wanted to hear 
what had gone by in the grand jury. 

What do you understand Mr. Shulman's role to be? 

A Shulman is an attorney that — I forget the name 
of the firm -- that my brother Ralph had been in contact 
with. 

I called him because I said to him, now I've been 
through the grand jury, but this meeting tomorrow, I'm not 
sure what the nature of this — and he said, do you have a 
subpoena? And I said, yes. And I showed him the subpoena 
and he made some comments that it was terribly broad. And 
I said, I'm just concerned whether I need to have an 
attorney tomorrow. 

I also told Mr. Shulman that I had seen Mr. Davis 
and he said, I don't think you need an attorney tomorrow. 

Mr. Shulman has an office here in Washington. 
Is that correct? 



Yes. 



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'20 01 01 
iryhoward 1 And you do not remember the name of the firm? 

2 A The address is 1333 New Hampshire — Cadwallader, 

3 et cetera. 

4 Cadwallader, wickersham and Taft? 

5 A Right. 

6 Do you understand that Mr. Shulman is representing 

7 any other individual or organization in connection with 

8 this investigation? 

9 A No. He has been representing my brother Ralph to 

10 a certain extent. That's how I got his name. 

11 In connection with this investigation? 

12 A I believe so, but I'd rather not speak for my 

13 brother Ralph. 

14 Do you know if your brother has testified in 

15 connection with this investigation? 

16 A He testified before the grand jury yesterday. And 

17 it's my understanding that our presence before that grand 

18 jury is secret. Not only our testimony, but the fact that 

19 we were there. 

20 Is that correct? 

21 MR. MC GOUGH: Let me speak to that. It is correct 

22 in the sense that neither the government, nor the grand 



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jurors are at liberty to discuss it. It is confidential as 
to them. It's also correct in the sense that you do not 
have to discuss it if you do not so wish. On the other 
hand/ it is not secret in the sense that you cannot, if you 
so desire, describe what happened before the grand jury. 

THE WITNESS: I understand that. 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
You mentioned that you met with Mrs. Morrison, who 
was acting as counsel for Mr. Channell. 
A . Yes. 

Have you only met with her once? 

Yes. 



Have you soken with her more than once? 
No. 



Did she or any of her associates ask you to report 
back to her after any meetings you had with any 
investigators? 

A No, sir. 

Mr. Hooper, in the materials that you produced, 
there is a letter from Elliott Abrams, who is an official 



of the State Department. 



Yes. 



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ONCIASSIHEB 



68 



And there is also an invitation to a reception at 
which Mr. Abrams was going to appear. 
A Yes. 

Have you ever met Mr. Abrams? 
A No , s i r . 

Did he ever appear at any of the meetings that you 
attended? 

A No, with the possible exception that he may have 
been in that big grand ballroom. But I was not with him. 
There were a lot of people there, so — 
He never spoke. 

A He never spoke or I think I haven't even seen him 
personally. 

All right. 
(Pause. ) 

MR. FRYMAN: I have no further questions. 
THE WITNESS: Did you understand what I told you 
about these notes? 

MR. MC GOUGH: I believe we've got it on the 
record and I think, having reviewed them — these notes, 
being Deposition Exhibits 10 and 11. 

THE WITNESS:' That I made last night. 



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KUSSIflEB 



0^20 01 01 69 

tryhoward 1 MR. MC GOUGH : Yes. Mr. Buck? 

2 EXAMINATION 

3 BY MR. BUCK: 

4 Mr. Hooper, my name is Ken Buck and I'm the 

5 assistant minority counsel with the House Select Committee. 

6 Could you tell me, what was your personal 

7 impression of Oliver North? What kind of person did you 

8 think he was? 

9 A He was an impressive person. 

10 In your meeting with Mr. North at his office, did 

11 he ever ask you for money? 

12 A He did not. 

13 Did he ever tell you that someone else would be 

14 asking you for money? 

15 A He did not. 

16 So your contribution was never raised at that 

17 point. 

18 A That is correct. 

19 Okay. Going into the office, did you assume that 

20 the reason that you were meeting with Mr. North was to 

21 contribute? 

22 A I stated the#reasons for the meeting. I wanted a 



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0420 01 01 

iryhoward 1 briefing on Central America and I also would have felt more 

2 comfortable if he were directing the monies, which one 

3 could assume from our meeting, since Jane McLaughlin was in 

4 the room, that he had something to do with the direction of 

5 the money. That gave me comfort, okay? 

6 Right. I see that in the explanation. I'm 

7 referring to Deposition Exhibit No. 10. 

8 A Yes . 

9 The word that I need for you to explain to me is 

10 "direct." What sort of direction did you anticipate — 

11 A Okay, that he would — that word "direct" — let 

12 me see if I can — 

13 (Pause.) 

14 "I want Ollie to assure me that he directed 100 

15 percent of the monies that I am sending." 

16 A Yes, that he would tell NEPL, for example, where 

17 to send the money. That's my assumption. 

18 Okay. 

19 A That is what that word means, to answer your 

20 question, that he would tell someone where to send the 

21 money, yes. 

22 Bear with mejt I just want to get a little more 






339 



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0420 01 01 ^' ' v**f IVUII II, y 71 

^aryhoward 1 comfortable with your use of that word. 

2 Did you anticipate that Mr. North would determine 

3 ] how many band aids and how many guns, or did you think that 

4 Mr. North would direct money to the Contras, as opposed to 

5 another project? 

6 A I did not know. 

7 You didn't know. 

8 A No. I assumed that he would direct the money that 

9 we had and would give to NEPL somewhere. 

10 You also seemed to be concerned with the overhead 

11 j that NEPL might be keeping from you. You mention again in 
j 

12 Exhibit 10, "I did not trust entirely what she said was the 

13 whole truth." 
I 

14 Was that referring to — 

15 A That refers to a statement that all of the monies 

16 that we were giving were going to go undiminished to aid 

17 for the Contras. 

18 Okay. 

19 A And that's not the usual with an organization. 

20 What type of overhead did you think they might be 

21 keeping? Did you have any kind of percentage idea? 

22 A No, I have no idea what the overhead is or any 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



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other organization. 



Okay. Would you be surprised if it was 10 
percent? 

A No. That sounds probably low for an organization 
like this. 

Would you be surprised if it was 35 percent? 

A No. 

Had you heard of the Boland amendment? 

A Yes, I heard of it, but I cannot -- well, what 
does it mean? It meant, I believe, that the U.S. Government 
could not give military aid directly or indirectly to so- 
called Contras. That's my understanding of it. 

And when you met with Mr. North, did you think 
about your conversations at all in connection with the 
Boland amendment? 

A Would I have thought about it? Yes, to the extent 
that armaments were forbidden to be supplied by government 
officials, yes. 

So were you surprised that Mr. North may be able 
to direct private monies towards — 

A No, I was not surprised. 

I'm referring now to Deposition Exhibit No. 11, 




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UNCLASSIFIED 



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Mr. Hooper. In paragraph 1, it states, "I assume that it 
would be illegal for monies of our foundations to be so 
used . " 

A Referring to armaments. 

Referring to armaments. So your impression at the 
time that you donated monies was that none of those monies 
was used for armaments. 
A That is correct. 

MR. BUCK: I have no further questions. 
MR. MC GOUGH: I believe you're excused, Mr. 
Hooper. 

(Signature not waived.) 

(Whereupon, at 10:40 a.m., the taking of the 
deposition was concluded.) 



Bruce H. Hooper 



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mmm 

CERTIFICATE OF NOTARY PUBLIC i REPORTER 



74 



1, 



Garv S . Howard 



, the officer before 



whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby 
certify that the witness whose testimony appears in the 
foregoing deposition was duly sworn by me; that the 
testimony of said witness was taken in shorthand and 
thereafter reduced to typewriting by me or under my 
direction; that said deposition is a true record of the 
testimony given by said witness; that I am neither counsel 
for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to 
the action in which this deposition was taken; and, further^ 
that 1 am not a relative or employee of any attorney or 
counsel employed by the parties hereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 



Notary iPjobl ic in and for the 
District of Columbia 
My Commission Expires November 14, 1990. 



«m*tt 



343 



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NCLASSIRE 



y 



345 



UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
tonsctsa of tte Winitth i^tattn 



To Bruce Hooper 



., tfceeting: 



9ar<ttant to lawful authority, YOU ARE HEREBY COMMANDED to 
appear before the SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY 
ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION of the 

Senate of the United States, on — . 19 , 

at 5 o'clock Su-m., at their committee room Hart_Seiia:tg 

Of fice B uilding, 9th Floor t;^ ^nd there 

to testify what you may know relative to the lubject matters under con- 
sideration by said committee. 

Pursuant to Committe.e._.EuJ.e...j5.._,.,tlilS-auhp£ijeiia-dixect:s_.appeaxanc£. 
at the deposition w hose not ice a ccom p anie s it. You must b ring 
with y ou the materials listed in the atta ched Schedule. 

flertsf tad not, as you witt answer your default under the pains and pen" 
alties in such cases made and provided. 

Tn any Select Committee staff member or U.S. Marshal 

to serve and return. 

tf ibcn uTuier my hand, by order of the committee, this 

^■^ day of ^^'^^'^ , in the year of our 

Lord^ne thousand nirie hundred and e. ighty-seven 




346 



UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 
(ilangresH of U;e ISinltth States 



Notice of 
Senate Deposition 



jYj Bruce Hooper 



(Srttting: 



please take nonce that at ^ o'clock ±un., on Apri2^_l_^ 
/ 9 8 7 ai Hart Senate Office Building, 9th Floor 

of the staff of the Select Committee on Secret Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 
Opposition of the Senate of the United States, will take your deposition on oral examination 
concerning what you may know relative to the subject matters under consideration by said 
Select Committee. The deposition will be taken before a notary public, or before some other 
officer authorized by local law to administer oaths; it will be taken pursuant to the Select 
Committee's rules, a copy of which are attached. 



(Siuen under my hand, by authority vested in me by 
the Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 
., Opposition on March 2 3 , 1987 




347 



SCHEDULE -- BRUCE HOOPER 

1. The respondent to this subpoena shall produce all materials 
pertaining, referring, or relating in any way whatever to: 

a. Carl R. Channell and/or any entity with which Carl R. 
Channell is or was associated, including, but not limited to 
(i) National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, (ii) 
Channell Corporation, (iii) Sentinel, (iv) American 
Conservative Trust, (v) American Conservative Foundation, 
(vi) Grow Washington, (vii) Hill-Potomac Group, (viii) 
Western Goals Endowment Fund, (ix) Western Goals Foundation, 
(x) Anti-Terrorism American Committee, and (xi) American 
Conservative Trust State Election Account; 

b. Richard R. Miller and/or any entity with which Richard 
R. Miller is or was associated, including, but not limited 
to (i) International Business Communications, Inc., (ii) 
Institute for North-South Issues, (iii) I. C, Inc., 

(iv) Intel Co-Operation, Inc., and (v) World Affairs 
Counselors, Inc. 

c. Dan H. Kuyltendall and/or any entity with which Dan H. 
KuyJcendall is or was associated, including, but not limited 
to, the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation; 

d. Robert Owen and/or any entity with which Robert Owen is 
or was associated, including, but not limited to (i) 
Institute for Democracy, Education, and Assistance, (ii) 
Council for Democracy, Education, and Assistance, and (iii) 
Institute on Terrorism and Subnational Conflict; 

e. the involvement of Oliver L. North, Carl R. Channell, 
Richard R. Miller, Dan H. KuyJcendall, or Robert Owen in 
political advocacy or campaigns or efforts to influence 
public opinion or legislation relating to anti -government 
forces in Nicaragua commonly Jcnown as the Contras; 

f." the use of any funds that were at any time under the 
control of Oliver L. North, Carl R. Channell, Richard R. 
Miller, Dan H. Kuyltendall, or Robert Owen in political 
advocacy or campaigns or efforts to influence public opinion 
or legislation relating to anti-government forces in 
Nicaragua commonly )cnown as the Contras ; 

g. Toyco S.A., a monetary account referred to as "Toys", 
or any other account or entity with the word "Toy" in the 
name; 

h. communications between Carl R. Channell, Richard R. 
Miller, Dan H. Kuyltendall, or Robert Owen and White House 
personnel, or between arfy of those individuals and any third 
party relating to White House personnel, including, but not 



348 



limited to, any communications with or relating to Oliver L. 
North or President Ronald Reagan. 

i. any contract, agreement, or consultant arrangement 
involving, or any compensation from, any department, 
division, or agency of the United States government, any 
State or political subdivision thereof, or any foreign 
government or political subdivision thereof, whether 
executed or not; 

j . any transaction with any bank or financial entity in 
Switzerland, Panama, Bermuda, or the Cayman Islands; 

k. (i) any arms transaction directly or indirectly through 
any third party with Iran, Israel, Manucher Ghorbanifar, 
Albert Hakim, Adnan Khashoggi, Yaacov Nimrodi, Amiram Nir, 
Adolph (Al) Schwimmer, Richard Secord, or John Singlaub; 
(ii) any arms transaction directly or through any third 
party, with Lake Resources, Inc., or any company or entity 
owned by, controlled by, or affiliated with, the previously 
named persons or company; (iii) any arms transaction 
directly or indirectly through any third party with anti- 
government forces in Nicaragua commonly known as the Contras 
or any other person or entity in Nicaragua; and/or (iv) any 
transaction to or from any person or entity of TOW missiles. 
Hawk antiaircraft missiles or parts, or F-14 aircraft parts; 

1. any American citizen held hostage; 

m. the anti-government forces in Nicaragua commonly known 
as the Contras, including, but not limited to, the provision 
of financial, military, or other assistance or support of 
any kind to, or for the benefit of, such forces, or any 
person or entity now or formerly associated with such 
forces, whether in Nicaragua or elsewhere; 

n. for Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Denmark, 
El.'Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong, Iran, Israel, 
Liberia, Lichtenstein, Nicaragua, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, 
and Switzerland, (i) any correspondence, telex, or other 
oral or written communication to or from any person or 
entity located in these countries, or (ii) any statement, 
check, deposit slip, or other material relating to any bank 
or financial institution account in located in these 
countries; or 

o. any tax record of any kind, including, but not limited 
to, any federal, state, and local filing, accompanying 
schedules, supporting doucments, and work papers relating to 
such record; 



349 



- 3 - 

p. amy communication service, including, but not limited 
tOr local and long distance telephone service, mobile 
telephone service, paper, telex, telecopy, and expedited 
mail service; or 

q. any person or entity listed in Appendix A hereto. 

2. The term "materials" as used in this subpoena includes 
any book, note, record, check, cancelled check, bank statement, 
correspondence, memorandum, paper, calendar, or any other 
document, recording, or data compilation from which information 
can be obtained, which are owned by you or which are in any way 
subject to your possession, custody, or control or that of any 
agent of yours. 

3. If your or your counsel have any questions regarding 
this subpoena, please contact James E. Kaplan or Timothy C. 
Woodcock at (202) 224-9960, 



K' 



350 



351 



APPENDIX A 



1. Any of the following persons: 

Bermudez, Enrique 
Calero, Adolf o 
Calero, Mario 
Cameron, Bruce 
Conrad, Daniel L. 
Chamorro, Pedro 
Cooper, William J. 
C lines, Thomas 
Cruz, Arturo 
Cruz, Arturo, Jr. 
de Senarclens, Jean 
Dutton, Robert 
Fischer, David 
Furmark , Roy 
Gadd, Richard 
Garnel, Jose 
Ghorbanifar, Manucher 
Gomez, Francis 
Hakim, Albert 
Hashemi , Cyrus 
Hull, John 
Kashoggi , Adnan 
Kimche, David 
Ledeen, Michael 
Lilac, Robert 



Lilac, Robert 

McMahon, Steve 

McFarlane, Robert 

F. Andy Messing, Jr. 

Montes, Oscar 

Nimrodi , Yaacov 

Nir, Amiram 

North, Oliver L. 

Poindexter, John 

Quintero, Rafael 

Robelo, Alfonso 

Robles, Rodolfo 

Rodriguez, Felix aka Max Gomez 

Rose, Jose Bueso 

Sacasa, Marrio 

Sanchez, Aristides 

Schwimmer, Adolph (Al) 

Secord, Richard V. 

Shackley, Theodore 

Singlaub, John L. 

Soghanalian, Sarkis 

Sommeriba, Leonardo 

Wilson, Edwin 

von Marbod, Erich. 

Zucker, willard I. 



2. Any person employed by, acting as an agent for, or 
representing: 

U. S. Air Force 

Military Airlift Command 

Central Intelligence Agency 

National Security Council 

President's Intelligence Oversight Board 

Fedjeral Aviation Administration 

Geneva Commercial Registry 

Military Reutilization and Material Supply Department, 
Portugal 

National Armaments Directorate, Portugal 

Nugen-Hand Bank, Australia 

Overseas Defense Corp. 

Department of Defense 

Lloyd's of London 

any agency, division, or department of the United States 
government with responsibility for foreign relations, 
for intelligence activities, or for manufacturing, 
storing, shipping, selling, transferring, monitoring, 
or accounting for any arms, munitions, or military 
personnel / 

any agency, division, or department of the government of. 



(351) 



352 



limited to, any communications with or relating to Oliver L. 
North or President Ronald Reagan. 

i. any contract, agreement, or consultant arrangement 
involving, or any compensation from, any department, 
division, or agency of the United States government, any 
State or political subdivision thereof, or any foreign 
government or political subdivision thereof, whether 
executed or not; 

j . any transaction with any bank or financial entity in 
Switzerland, Panama, Bermuda, or the Cayman Islands,- 

k. (i) any arms transaction directly or indirectly through 
any third party with Iran, Israel, Manucher Ghorbanifar, 
Albert Hakim, Adnan Khashoggi, Yaacov Nimrodi, Amiram Nir, 
Adolph (Al) Schwimmer, Richard Secord, or John Singlaub; 
(ii) any arms transaction directly or through any third 
party, with Lake Resources, Inc., or any company or entity 
owned by, controlled by, or affiliated with, the previously 
named persons or company; (iii) any arms transaction 
directly or indirectly through any third party with anti- 
government forces in Nicaragua commonly known as the Contras 
or any other person or entity in Nicaragua; and/or (iv) any 
transaction to or from any person or entity of TOW missiles. 
Hawk antiaircraft missiles or parts, or F-14 aircraft parts; 

1. any American citizen held hostage; 

m. the anti-government forces in Nicaragua commonly known 
as the Contras, including, but not limited to, the provision 
of financial, military, or other assistance or support of 
any kind to, or for the benefit of, such forces, or any 
person or entity now or formerly associated with such 
forces, whether in Nicaragua or elsewhere; 

n. for Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Denmark, 
El.*Salvador , Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong, Iran, Israel, 
Liberia, Lichtenstein, Nicaragua, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, 
and Switzerland, (i) any correspondence, telex, or other 
oral or written communication to or from any person or 
entity located in these countries, or (ii) any statement, 
check, deposit slip, or other material relating to any bank 
or financial institution account in located in these 
countries; or 

o. any tax record of any kind, including, but not limited 
to, any federal, state, and local filing, accompanying 
schedules, supporting doucments, and work papers relating to 
such record; 



$Z'iif cnsz 



353 



- 3 - 

p. any communication service, including, but not limited 
to^ local and long distance telephone service, mobile 
telephone service, paper, telex, telecopy, and expedited 
mail service; or 

q. any person or entity listed in Appendix A hereto. 

2. The term "materials" as used in this subpoena includes 
any book, note, record, check, cancelled check, bank statement, 
correspondence, memorandum, paper, calendar, or any other 
document, recording, or data compilation from which information 
can be obtained, which are owned by you or which are in any way 
subject to your possession, custody, or control or that of any 
agent of yours. 

3. If your or your counsel have any questions regarding 
this subpoena, please contact James E. Kaplan or Timothy C. 
Woodcock at (202) 224-9960. 



354 



355 



APPENDIX A 



1. Any of the following persons: 

Bermudez, Enrique 
Calero, Adolf o 
Calero, Mario 
Cameron, Bruce 
Conrad, Daniel L. 
Chamorro, Pedro 
Cooper, William J. 
Clines, Thomas 
Cruz, Arturo 
Cruz, Arturo, Jr. 
de Senarclens, Jean 
Dutton, Robert 
Fischer, David 
Furmark, Roy 
Gadd, Richard 
Garnel, Jose 
Ghorbanifar, Manucher 
Gomez, Francis 
Hakim, Albert 
Hashemi, Cyrus 
Hull, John 
Kashoggi, Adnan 
Kimche , David 
Ledeen, Michael 
Lilac, Robert 

2. Any person employed by, acting as an agent for, or 
representing: 

U. S. Air Force 

Military Airlift Command 

Central Intelligence Agency 

National Security Council 

President's Intelligence Oversight Board 

FedjCral Aviation Administration 

Geneva. Commercial Registry 

Military Reutilization and Material Supply Department, 
Portugal 

National Armaments Directorate, Portugal 

Nugen-Hand Bank, Australia 

Overseas Defense Corp. 

Department of Defense 

Lloyd's of London 

any agency, division, or department of the United States 

government with responsibility for foreign relations, 
for intelligence activities, or for manufacturing, 
storing, shipping, selling, transferring, monitoring, 
or accounting for ^ny arms, munitions, or military 
personnel g 

any agency, division, or department of the aovernment of, 



Lilac, Robert 

McMahon, Steve 

McFarlane, Robert 

F. Andy Messing, Jr. 

Montes, Oscar 

Nimrodi , Yaacov 

Nir, Amiram 

North, Oliver L. 

Poindexter, John 

Quintero, Rafael 

Robelo, Alfonso 

Robles, Rodolfo 

Rodriguez, Felix aka Max Gomez 

Rose, Jose Bueso 

Sacasa, Marrio 

Sanchez, Aristides 

Schwimmer, Adolph (Al) 

Secord, Richard V. 

Shackley, Theodore 

Singlaub, John L. 

Soghanalian, Sarkis 

Sommeriba, Leonardo 

Wilson, Edwin 

von Marbod, Erich. 

Zucker, Willard I. 



(355) 



356 



any instrumentality of, or any national of, or person 
located in Iran, Israel, Switzerland, Panama, Bermuda, 
Liberia, Lichtenstein, the Cayman Islands, Portugal, 
Denmark, Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Costa Rica, 
Nicaragua, Honduras, or Guatemala 

Any of the following entities, or any entity whose name is 
as listed, but followed by Inc., Corp., Corporation, Ltd., 
Co., Company, or SA., doing business in any location 
whatever : 

ACE 

Airmach, Inc. 

Albon Values 

Alpha Serivces, S.A. 

Amalgamated Commercial Enterprises, Inc. 

American Marketing and Consulting, Inc. 

American National Management Corporation 

Baggett Transportation Company 

CSF 

CSF Investments Ltd. 

CSFR Inv. Ltd. 

Chester Co. 

Compagnie de Services Fiduciares SA 

Corporate Air Services, Inc. 

Dataguard International 

Defex - Portugal 

Dolmy Business, Inc. 

EAST Inc. 

EATSCO 

Eagle Aviation Services and Transportation 

Egyptian American Transport Services, Inc. 

Energy Resources International 

Fifteenth of September League 

Gulf Marketing Consultants 

Hyde Park Holdings 

Hyde Park Square Corporation 

I. B. C. 
rj- IDEA 

Intercontinental Technology 

International Research and Trade 

Kisan 

Lake Resources Corp. 

Lake Resources, Inc. 

Lilac Associates 

Maule Air, Inc. 

Missurasata 

NRAF Inc. 

National Defense Council Foundation 

National Liberation Army 

N. S. I. 

Nicaraguan Democraeic Force (FDN) 

Nicaraguan Democratic Union 

Nicaraguan Development Council 



357 



- 3 - 

Nicaraguan Freedom Fund, Inc. 

Nicaraguan Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARM) 

Project Democracy 

Queen Shipping 

R. M. Equipment Co. 

Revolutionary Democratic Alliance (ARDE) 

S & S Trading Corp. 

SOME Aviation 

Secord Associates 

Southern Air Transport, Inc. 

Southern Bloc Opposition (BOS) 

Stanford Technology, Inc. 

Stanford Technology Trading, Inc 

Stanford Technology Trading Associates, Inc. 

Systems Services International 

Trans World Arms Inc. 

Udall Corporation 

Udall Research Corporation 

Udall Resources, Inc., S.A. 

United Nicaraguan Opposition (UNO) 



f^^ 



358 



359 



WUSSIflfO 



^/A^A(Lg(^ 



^ NATIONAL ENDOWMENT 
FOR THE 
PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 



March 4, 1986 



305 couOTm ST n e 
Suite 1000 
>*AS"'NGTON D C 20002 



^H C00033 



Mr . Ralph Hooper 
Hooper Brothers Company 
Three Parkway 
Philadelphia. PA 19102 

Dear Ralph: 

Thought you might want a copy of the President's 
response to our Central American Freedom Program. 

We believe Congress will vote on the aid package the 
week of the 1 7th instead of the 25th. That means we lose 
8 days to caunpaign. We must make every effort to double 
our advertising to produce an even greater impact. We need 
to buy more air time. We've got to counter the already 
spreading Communist propoganda. 

Spitz met with the Pr pgirf»'nf anf ) the UNO 
leaders yesterday . They need our help . Ralph . you've 
given alot. If we had more time I wouldn't be coming back 
to you so soon. But, you're not a fence sitter like so 
many that I've contacted. We're forced to go back to 
those who've stood behind us from day one. If you can see 
your way clear to fund an additional spot in each of the 
districts for approx. $25,000, we can win this vote for the 
President and America's future. 



Thanks for being a guardian of Democracy, 
I'll talk with you soon. 



'''""II"' OiLlujjilwi/ReiMsed onSjJz^J^H 
""I'll [ i rit i i w am^t.^.^,^^^ 
by K Joniison, Nii:itr,=: s,c... , ^ jncil 



Sincerely , 



5^MH, 



Jane E. McLaughlin 



Enclosures 
JEM/a:d 



CNcussife 




(359) 



360 



361 



NATIONAL ENDOWMENT 
^ FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 



"UmiFIEH 



3P)^f^SrCr 



305 'OuOtm ST n E 
Suite lOOO 
WASHINGTON O C 20O02 



April 3. 1986 



JM 000026 



Mr . Bruce Hooper 
Fidelity Court Building 
Radnor - Chester Road 
Radnor, PA 19087 

Dear Mr. Hooper: 

As you well know, we are in the final days of the 
President's crucial campaign to achieve the aid the Freedom 
Fighters so desperately need. 

Not simply humanitarian aid, but more importantly the 
effective military aid needed if the Freedom Fighters are to 
continue successfully resisting attacks by Soviet-supplied 
Mi-24/KIND D gunships. 

The cause of freedom over tyranny will hang in the 
balance In Nicaragua during the next 100 days. At our 
upcoming meeting you will be briefed In detail on what those 
100 days hold in store for the Freedom Fighters. 

We appreciate your support of $15,000. Your help has 
kept the President's most important foreign policy issue 
very much alive. We are certain this win lead to ultimate 
victory on April 15th. 

I am enclosing materials for your review. We look 
forward to seeing you and Ralph on April i 6th or 24th. 



Sincerely , 



•'Released on ) I feSfig 
by K Johnson, National Secuniy Council 



/ 



Jane E. McLaughlin 



Enclosures 
JEM/ajd 



nnmsim 




(361) 



362 



Bruce h. hooper 

FIDELITY COURT BUILDING 

BAONOB-CMESTEB BO*D 

RADNOR. PENNSYLVANIA 19087 

215293 0216 



May 5, 1986 



Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

President 

National Endowment for the 

Preservation of Liberty 

305 Fourth Street, N.E. 

Suite 1000 

Washington, DC 20002 

Dear Mr. Channell: 

First, 1 bad a stimulating morning in the company of 
Mr. North and with Jane McLaughlin. 

I told her that I would gather some support and I am 
in such process now. 

Second, I am glad that you sent your letter and the 
French response. I received a copy of your letter last 
week. 

I should hope that you would concentrate your efforts 
on Central and South America and the Caribbean where all of 
us can agree on the nature of the problem today. 

I appreciate your forwarding a French reply and I am 
somewhat sympathetic to it. I think the French do not want 
to see tit-for-tat escalation and I think we ought to con- 
centrate in having our oil companies cease to operate there. 
On the other hand, it was a right thing to do to Libya. 



Sincerely, 

'Pu-w^i — 
Bruce H. Hooper 



BHH:kal 




363 



NATIONAL ENDOWMENT 

FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIBERTY 







May 6. 1986 



30S «OjOT» ST N E 
Suite '000 
iv*S~iNGTON D C 200OJ 



Mr. Bruce Hooper 
Fidelity Court Bldg. 
Radnor - Chester Road 
Radnor, PA 19087 

Dear Mr . Hooper : 

I'm glad you were able to come to Washington last 
week. I very much enjoyed meeting with you. 

I wanted to let you know that Ollle would be able to 
meet with your brothers either here or in Philadelphia if 
they would like. 

We look forward to hearing from you soon. 



Sincerely, 



JEM/ajd 



-'Jane E 



McLaGghlln 



P.S. The football coach from West Chester was Killenger. 



- "■ w«iii| 0«j<i>w .»w;Beleasen on llCga& p. 

■■ I Jib u(LU iliJso 

by K jonnson. National Secur.ly Council 



53H6 



inmsim 




364 



May 27, 1986 



Miso Jane E. McLaughlin 
NATIBNAL ENDOWMENT FOR THE 

PRESERVATION OF LIDERTY 
305 Fourth St., N. E. 
Suite 1000 
Washington, D.C. 20002 

Dear Jane: 

Enclosed Is the contribution which I mentioned to you on the 
telephone ten days ago. I am a couple of days late sending 
it but I hope it will do some good. 

Please have OUie contact me to let me know what he is going 
to do with it, if that is possible. My office number is: 293- 
0216; my home number is : 688-6118. 

Very truly yours. 



Brucs H. Hooper 
Secretary 



BHH/emni 
Enclosuro 




365 



TKf^Jj^ . . _ .- 



3 X P.LP. A^o/- ^t/v:5/?D TkA-r "S^/VHeA'ceTCL 

. Mw^ DiKJ^crL)^ .iMTkj^r it:. .coo_(i) 
. lA/vvt^ R-<-K.o " :jr wnrjr all'h -to 

Lf, T" P/^ A/^)r u/a^T A^-lf^ 9(» ^ 

'T 7: /ajt£iJD£D ^ ri^ This Se/^T(Ft^'c/i ^ 

/^^y»m|»/<£ - Dip L)ojv;oi<i v<0 A?vr T^" 




■ niiliiilli Oulujjilm* Released on l_ I '^(f .6 fi55 / ,,- ^^ ^ ^^ 

''" '< u i ju f m i »» » i "-■ ( U •<J'-\J 

Dy K Johnson. Nai,onji Secu ,, ■",„.,, V ■-J — ' ^-^^^ 



366 



UNCUSSIFIEO „ ^- „ - , 











r;r.;. 






367 






TIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL 

WASM»<GTON. C 20808 



July 23, 1986 



KIat^dn* •- 



Vf^e 



y/ 






Dear Bruce: 

America is now at the verge of answering 
Soviets laid down in Nicaragua. When the 
need of support and sustained faith in th 
helped to provide both. The struggle for 
must first be won in the halls of Congres 
dedication and resolve to stay with the P 
cfunpaign, neither victory would be possib 
approves the aid, we will finally be at a 
truly make a contribution to a democratic 



the challenge the 
President was most in 

is leadership, you 
freedom in Nicaragua 
Without your 

resident in this long 

le. Once the Senate 
point where we can 
outcome in Nicaragua. 



All Americans owe you a great debt. As men who have lived 
through combat know, without a sustained level of support, those 
in the front lines can accomplish nothing. Your perseverance in 
the cause of freedom and President Reagan's dream for a free 
Nicaragua were the sustaining measure that will carry us that 
last difficult mile. 

For your patriotism, courage, and dedication, thank you. 

Sincerely, 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mr. Bruce H. Hooper 
Fidelity Court Building 
Radnor-Chester Road 
Radnor, PA 19087 








Vi.»' 



Kussm 



368 



c/ 



V 



NATIONAL SECURrTY COUNCIL 
W*Sm»*;TON O C 20S06 






;? /*^M (fi^ 



May 2, 1986 



Dear Bruce: 



HL000Q27 



Here is the situation today. Congressman Bob Michel, Republican 
Leader of the House of Representatives, persuaded a majority of 
the House to vote overwhelmingly for a bill which got the 
President's Freedom Fighter package away from being included as a 
supplement to a huge Democrat-sponsored spending bill. 

This spending bill, if passed, faces an almost certain veto by 
President Reagan. Michel's adroit leadership has now effectively 
saved the Freedom Fighter aid bill, intact, for what we hope will 
be a final vote during the week of June 9. He is determined to 
emerge victorious, even if he must doggedly wear down the 
opposition. 

You are obviously supporting the President for the long term as 
well. I want to thanJc you so very much for all you are doing to 
support President Reagan and to help assure a victory for freedom 
in Central America. 

We are entering a critical period now in the legislative 
struggle. The President is chipping away at the opposition and 
gaining solid momentum for a clear victory in the next three 
weeks. This is due in no small way to your support of the 
ongoing Central American Freedom Program of the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty. 

I hope you will remain steadfast with the President as he leads 
this effort. I know personally that he values your help very 
much. We must continue to work together for the success of the 
President's policy. It's been a long struggle — we're almost 
there. Please maintain your invaluable, strong support. 



Sincerely, 



J/^ - 



Oliver L. North 
Deputy Director, 
Political-Military Affairs 



Mr. Bruce H. Hooper 
Fidelity Court Buildi 
Radnor-Chester Road 
Radnor, PA 19087 

(368 



cNcussffe 




369 



NAHE ■ HIRl lUOOO 



WWCUSS/REO 



PAGE 1 



RPTS DINKEL 
DCnX GXLE 

DEPOSITION or 
KELSON BUNKER HUNT 

Select Committee to Investigate 

Covert Arms Transactions with 

Iran, 

U.S. House oi Representatives. 

Washington. O.C. 

Friday, Aprii 2H , U87 




\tO. 



|-_jgl|y DiiIm^iiI--'- i*e<l on '^-^ '' ,^ I (^/^/ 



The deposition convened at 9-30 a.m. in Room 328, the 
Capitol . 

Present: Thomas Fryman, Staii Counsel. House Select 
Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran; 
Bill Davis. Investigator; U. Thomas HcGough. Jr., Associate 
Counsel, Senate Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the Nicaxaguan Opposition; Ivan 
Irwin. Jr.. Shank, Irwin £ Conant. UIOO Thanksgiving Tower, 



JINCLASSIFJED fV^^^ 



inder provWoro o< E.0. 123S6 



'SMo, NatkMul Security Council 




370 



UNCLASSIF3E3 



NAHE: HIRimOOO -^ ■ ■ w' ^f-^^^^^i f E t L/ PAGE 2 
26 Dallas, Texas. 7520 1, on behalf of the witness. 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



371 



KAn£ = 

27 
28 
29 
30 
3 I 
32 
33 
314 
35 
36 
37 
?~^38 

m 

142 
43 

uu 
us 

■46 
1*7 
148 

149 
50 
51 



HIR1 1400 



(9-30 



: . ,«NClJISS/BED 



Uhaieupon. 

NELSOM BUNKER HUMX 
uas called as a witnass. and having baan duly sworn, was 
axaminad and tastiflad as follows = 
EXAHIHATIOK 
BY HR. FRYHAH: 

2 nr . Hunt, would you stata your full nama for tha 
racord, plaasa? 

A Nalson Bunkar Hunt. 

fi Whara do you rasida. H r ■ Hunt? 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H D al 1 as > 

fi Hould you briafly dasoriba for tha racord your 
businass intarasts? 

A X am in tha oil and gas axploration businass, 
faming, ranching, various invastaants otharwisa . 

fi Axa you an oificaz oi any coapanias? 

A Yas. X am tha Chalzaan of tha Board of Hunt Enargy 
Corporation. 

fi Do you hold any position in any non-profit 
organization? 

A X aa not suza. You aaan liKa diractoz of tha Rad 
Cross or soaathing lika that? 

fi Ya>. Ara you on tha board of any non-profit 



(/'ac ^r ^^^^:^- 



UNCLASSIFED 



prMMom o< LO. 123S« 
Mkjr D. SM(«, Naliond SacMrity Coundl 



372 



NAHE: 
52 
53 
54 
55 
56 
57 
58 
59 
60 
61 
62 
63 
6U 
65 
66 
67 
68 
69 
70 
71 
72 
73 
7t» 
75 
76 



HIR1 mooo 



^fioussmid 



PAGE 



organization or are you an officer of any non-profit 
organization? 

A I aa on the board of sone. but rather inactively, 
if at ail. 

2 Which one are you on the board of? 

A Oh, that is a--I don't think I can recall them. 
Host of these things are very informal. I am inactive to 
the point that I don't really remember which ones. The Old 
Time Gospel Hour — I do remember that one. 

Q Are you on the board or are you an officer of any 
organization that is involved in any political activity? 

A No, I don't thinX so. 

You know. I just don't Know. Everything — everything 
is involved in soma political activity. I an not exactly 
sure what you mean by that. 

e Other than the Old Time Gospel Hour, what 
organizations do you recall that you are on the board of or 
are you an officer of? 

A I an a — on the board of the Council of National 
Polity, and that is a — I believe a 501(c)(3) organization. 

fi Axe you on the board ox axe you an officer of any 
other SOI (c)(3) organizations? 

A I an sure I an> but I really just couldn't xecall 
theix names offhand. Seens like evexything is 501(c)(3), at 
least that Is what Z an told. 



UNClflSSIFJED 



373 



KANE 
77 
78 
79 
80 
81 
82 
83 
8X 
85 
86 
87 
88 
89 
90 
91 
92 
93 
94 
95 
96 
97 
98 
99 
100 
101 



HIR1 lUOOO 



MMimSED 



on thft board of th« 



Council for National Policy, do you xagulazly zacaiva 
matatials fzon tha officazs o£ that organization? 

A Thay don't sand out nuch in tha way of matarial. I 
think they do hava soma kind of a nawslattar . 

2 Do you attand board maatings? 

A I hava. I hava attandad than in tha past, yas . 

S How many hava you attandad in tha last year? 

A X don't baliava I hava been in tha last year. 

2 And hava you attandad board maatings of other 
501(c)(3) organizations? 

A Yas. I think--! think ona or two, but I am not 
trying to be devious. I just can't remember the names of 
these things . 

There is a--Ed ncAtaer from Hemphis, Tennessee has 
an organization which is a Christian organization. X have 
been to his board maatings. I can't think of the nana of 
his organization. 

2 How could you spall HcAtaar? 

A M-c-A-t-a-a-r . 

e And what other 501(c)(3) organizations other than 
those two? If you can't identify tha name, just generally 
describe tha nature of tha organization. 

A Hell, tha Texas Bible Society would be one. And it 
is a Christian organization. X am not sura whether it is a 



UNCLASSIFIED 



374 



HIR1 mOOO 



UNCLASSiF;ED 



PAGE 



MAKE 

102 501(c)(3) or not. They distributa biblas in Dallas and in 

103 T«xas . 

lOM 2 Any othats that you tacall? 

105 A Hall. I can't racall. I am sura thera are some 

106 others, but, you Know, a lot oi these organizations, they 

107 want to put you on their board oi directors hoping to get a 

108 contribution. tlaybe you never get to a meeting. So, I am 

109 sure I am on some oi those. 

110 2 Have you been on the board oi any organization that 

1 1 1 you understand has been involved in any way with Nicaragua? 

112 A I don't believe so. 

113 2 Have you been an oiilcer oi any such organizations? 
11U A I don't believe I have, no. 

115 2 Did you ever serve on the board oi Uestarn Goals? 

116 A I am not sure. I think I was on the letterhead of 
1 17 Western Goals . 

1 18 . I Knew Larry McDonald, the congressman, quite well. 

119 I believe he put me on the board. I don't think I ever 

120 attended a meeting. 

121 2 Have you aver bean on the board oi any organization 

122 associated with General Slnglaub? 

123 A Z don't believe so. I know General Singlaub. I 
121 mat hlB. but Z haven't been on his board as iar as 1 Know. 

125 2 Kow, you mentioned the Council ior National Policy. 

126 How long have you served on that board? 



UNCLASSiFSED 



375 



Hknz 

127 
128 
129 
130 
131 
132 
133 
13U 
135 
136 
137 
138 
139 

mo 

141 
1U2 

ms 
mu 

1X5 

146 

m7 

1148 
149 
150 

151 



HIR1 14000 



UNCLASSfFSED 



PAGE 



A I think about four years — sines shoxtly aitar the 
organization was started, I believe, however long that has 
been. Maybe five years. 

2 Are board neetings held at regular Intervals? 

A They have three meetings, sort of nembership 
meetings per year. Generally, there is a board meeting at 
the membership meetings. 

fi How large is the board? 

A I believe it is about 400, but there may be an 
executive committee separate from the board of maybe a 
dozen. 

e Are you on the executive connittee? 

A Yes, I am. 

2 Who else is on the executive committee? 

A Well, also Rich DeVoss, Joe Coors, Pat Robertson. 
He has been on — I am not sure whether he is on it right now. 
Like I say, I haven't been to a meeting in a year. I am a 
little out of touch with it. 

Paul Hyerich, I believe Howard Phillips, and three 
or four others whom I just can't recall right offhand. 

2 Hho are the officers of that organization? 

A Hell, it rotates. They seem to have a new 
president every year or two. Z aa not sure who is president 
right now. Might be Rich Devoss. Pat Robertson has been 
president. I was president three or four years ago. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



376 



NAHE: 
152 
153 
ISM 
155 
156 
157 
158 
159 
160 
161 
162 
163 
16U 
165 
166 
167 
168 
169 
170 
171 
172 
173 
17U 
175 
176 



"" °° UNCLASSIFIED "" ' 

2 Is there someone who filTs^he role of a paid 
executive director? 

A Yes> there is. I believe his name is Jack Kelson. 
I think they maintain an office in the Washington, D.C. 
area . 

8 Is there anyone else that you have dealt with in 
that organization who is an executive employee? 

A Well, in the past, prior to Nelson, there was a 
woman. I believe her name was Kargo Carlisle. She was sort 
of executive director. 

Prior to her, there was a man named Woody Jenkins. 

8 And I believe you said that organization had 
meetings three times a year? 

A I believe that is correct. 

8 Did you attend any of those meetings in 1986? 

A I don't believe so, but I might possibly have. But 
it has been some time. I have missed several meetings. I 
am not sure when is the last meeting I attended. 

8 Do you recall if you attended any of those meetings 
in 1985? 

A You know, I don't recall. I would think X have. I 
would speculate that I probably was at a meeting in 1985, 
but I don't have any recollection. 

8 At any meeting of the Council for National Policy 
that you attended, did you — let me withdraw that question. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



377 



KAHE 

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HIR11<4000 Iini|-| IIV^II.nL.LI PAGE 9 

At any m««ting of tha Council for National Policy 
that you attandsd, uftxa you aware of any discussion of 
Nicaragua? 

A You ar« talking about a genaral membarship naeting 
or the--tha axacutiva maating? 

Q Eithar. It would include either of those two or 
any private discussion with a smaller group that you would 
have had at any of those meetings. 

A Well> they have--they have speakers, you know, 
usually eight or ten speakers per meeting, covering a rather 
wide range of topics. They have had speakers talk about 
Nicaragua, Central America. I believe Oliver North spoke at 
one meeting, and that was before the general membership. 

Now, I was never in the — I don't recall the 
executive committee ever speaking about Nicaragua or Central 
America. 

2 Did you ever speak with nr . Coors in any way about 
Nicaragua? 

A No, Z didn't. 

e Were you ever asked at a meeting of the Council for 
National Policy to make any sort of contribution with 
respect to Nicaragua? 

A No. Adolfo Cjpl^ero, he attended a couple meetings, 
at least that I was at, and I met him. But the Council for 
National Policy, I think they may have a rule prohibiting 



UNCUSSIFJED 



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HIRllUOOO .WI111l_M.'^_^ltikJk>kJ PAGE 10 
anybody asking for contributions. Just about anything. 

fi In any case, you wara not askad at any Council ioi 
National Policy neeting foz a contribution; is that correct? 

A That is correct. 

I do remember one time there was a--a meeting in 
somebody's room, you Know, maybe they had a film or 
something they wanted to show. They showed a iilm of the 
situation in Central America or something. 

I think they may have violated the rules of the 
organization by saying that if anybody wanted to contribute, 
they would be available. But that was separate, apart irom 
the Council ior Hational Policy. 

You know, when you get 400 or 500 people at a 
meeting, there are a lot of people that have got various 
axes to grind. I think in the early days there was a lot of 
independent soliciting, to the point that the organization 
did pass a rule that they shouldn't be soliciting each other 
for contributions foz the various causes. 

2 On the occasion when this film was shown, was Mr. 
Morth present? 

A I don't believe he was. 

e Who showed the film? 

A Seems to me Hoody Jenkins showed the film. 

fi Has this in 1985 or 1986? 

A Oh, it was — certainly wasn't in 1986. It could have 



UNClASSIFe 



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UNCLASSIFi'ED 



PAGE 11 



been in 1985 or 1984, but Woody Jenkins was the first 
executive director of the Council for National Policy. He 
lived in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. 

Uhen the headquarters were noved to Washington, 
O.C., he resigned, because he didn't--was in the Louisiana 
legislature and didn't want to leave Louisiana. But he 
remained a member of the organization and would attend 
meetings . 

I think Woody has some kind of a--and his wife, one 
of the other--both of them have some kind of an organization 
to help the refugees from Nicaragua and Central American. 
They do raise funds for that. 

e Have you contributed to any organization with which 
Mr. Jenkins is associated other than the Council for 
National Policy? 

A Seems like I made a contribution to his 
organization at one time. I am not sure when it was or even 
how much it was — «5,000 or *10,000, something like that. 

2 This is the refugee organization? 

A I think so. 

e Do you know If Hr. Jenkins has been involved in any 
way with providing arms for the resistance in Nicaragua? 

I I have no idea. As far as I know, the answer would 
go negative, but I don't know what he is doing. 

e ttr . Hunt, do you know a person named Carl Channell? 



UNCLASSIFSED 



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PAGE 12 
ks Spitz Channsll. 



HIR1 IMOOO 

A Yas> I ballavi- 

fi Sams pttxson. 

A Yas . 

S Uhan did you first ma«t him? 

A Oh, savan ox aight yaazs ago, tan yaars ago. I 
can't ramembar. It has baan soma tima . 

Q Uhat uara tha cizcumstancas oi your first meeting? 

A I beliava ha was involved in tha NCPAC organization 
as soma kind of a — as a fund raiser. 

S Uhat is NCPAC? 

A As I said, I am not sure. I was afraid you would 
ask that, a PAC, I guess, being Political Action Committee. 
The KG is KC — it was Tarry Dolan's. Tarry Dolan was involved 
in the organization, and a man named Brent Bozell. I don't 
know what the NC stands for — National Committee, Political 
Action Committee. 

2 Is it National Conservative? 

A naybe that is it. National Conservative Political 
Action Committee. 

S You believe you met him seven to ten years ago in 
connection with that? 

A I would say so, yes. 

S What were the eireumstances oi your first meeting 
with him? 

A I just don't remember. I believe there were three 



UNCLASSIFIED 



I 



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HIR1 moOO 



UNCLASSIFBED 



PAGE 13 



or fout fallows in NCPAC around. Th«y wara 
hustling — soliciting funds. 

e Uera you a solicitaa? 

A I would say so, yas . 

C During tha past savan to tan yaars, how many times 
would you say that you hava mat iaca to faca with Mr. 
Channall, approximataly ? 

A Well, I an spaculating. I would say six or aight. 

e Uould you briaily dascriba for tha racord the 
occasions you recall meeting with him? 

A Uall, let's see. X don't know that I can--my memory 
is always hazy on any thasa things. 

Channall travels around a bit. and ha caaa through 
Dallas and would stop by my office for an appointment. He 
would usually call in advance. Ha would stop by and he 
would hava soma project he was working on. He would attempt 
to solicit funds for tha project, all kinds of things, like 
scholarship funds for--that type of thing to train political 
candidates to — thay put on a fund raising deal at my ranch 
two and a half yaars ago> roughly, during tha Sapublican 
convention. That was another tiaa. 

His latest project was to put a torch of freedom in 
Hast Berlin that can be seen for 15> 20 miles, something 
like that--10, IS miles. 

2 Do you recall meeting with him in your office on 



UNCLASSIFSED 



382 



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HIR1 mooo 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



PAGE 1(4 



more than one occasion? 

A Oh, yas . I uould say thraa or four tinas. 

2 Hera any of those three or four times in 1985 or 
1986? 

A I wouldn't want to put a special date, a specific 
date, because I just don't remember. I can't tie a meeting 
to a date. 

e Have you ever met with nr . Channell in any location 
other than Dallas or your ranch? 

A Yes. I have seen him here in Washington a couple 
of times. 

S You believe a couple of times? 

A Yes. I would say at least twica . He had a meeting 
at the Hay Adams Hotel one time, and I attended that. And 
then I attended a different time, I believe a luncheon over 
in the Senate building or the House building — I am not sure 
which. That probably goes back to KCPAC and-- 

2 Other than the meeting at the Hay Adams and the 
lunch in the Capitol, what other occasions do you recall 
meeting him in Washington? 

A I just don't--there might have been another similar 
kind of occasion. I can't recall for sure just when or what 
the meeting was about. 

Q Have you spoken with him on the telephone from tine 
to time? 



UNCLASSIFSED 



383 



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UNCLASSIFIED 



HIRIIUOOO UIVl^LH.'^-'^ir Ul" kl PAGE 15 

A Yes. H« calls on th« talephona occasionally. 

fi Whan was tha last tlma you spoka to hin on tha 
talaphona? 

A I callad him a fau waaks ago. I think an FBI guy 
wanted to coma talk to ma, Brian Oonlaavy oz something like 
that. 

I asked him i£ ha knew the gentleman. He said he 
did. Kice man. He spent he lot of time with him. I said, 
'Tine, I will be glad to see him.'' 

X did. I just called him just to see what he was 
in. 

2 Did you tell him you were going to be testifying in 
Washington today? 

A No. 

2 Do you know if anyone else relayed that message to 
him? 

A I didn't ask anybody to, and I wouldn't think any 
of my people did. This isn't a secret, is it? 

Q No. 

A I didn't think it was, but Z didn't tell him. Last 
time I talked to him was before Brian Donleavy came down to 
Dallas or was in Dallas. 

fi So you know Olivet North? 

A Yes, I know Oliver North. 

e Hhen did you first meet Hr . North? 



UNCLASSIFSED 



384 



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HIR1 14000 



UNCLASSIFiED 



PAGE 16 



A I believe I met him at a Council ior National 
Policy meeting* maybe when he made a speech. 

2 Do you recall Mr. North, or Colonel North, 
attending more than one Council for National Policy meeting? 

A Yes. X believe he was at more than one. 

2 How many that you recall? 

A I recall two, but there could have been others. 
You Know, these meetings got usually UOO or 500 
people, 300 to 500 anyway. It is hard to remember who all 
was there. I just don't keep that much contact. Some 
people you know; some others you don't. 

8 Who introduced you to Colonel North the first time? 

A Well, you pretty much shake hands, meet pretty much 
everyone. I don't recall. Hoody Jenkins, perhaps, or 
somebody, but I just don't recall. 

2 Other than the two occasions at the Council 
meetings, on what other occasions have you met with Colonel 
North? 

A Hell, I had a cup of tea with hin one morning at 
the Hay Adaas Hotel, and Z believe Z attended a briefing 
that he gave about the Nicaragua situation in the executive 
section of the Hhite House, the old--it is an old building. 
I don't know what they call it. 

e Has that during the sane visit at your tea with him 
at the Hay Adams or was that on another occasion? 



WNCUSSIFfED 



385 



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HIR1 mooo 



UNCl/ISS/REO 



I don't recall for sure. I think that may have 



been a difierent time. 

2 On what other occasions have you met with Colonel 
North? 

A I don't believe any others. You know, I met him 
four or five different times, like I say, a couple of times 
at the National Council meetings and a couple of times here. 

2 Uhat year did you meat hin for tea at the Hay 
Adams ? 

A I would be speculating if I guessed. It would just 
be a guess. It has been a couple years ago, something like 
that. 

C Uas it in 1986? 

A I don't think so. 

2 1985? 

A It could have been, but I just don't recall. 

2 And what year did you attend the briefing at the 
Executive Office Building? 

A I don't recall that specifically. I think Channell 
would know. Ha was thara for the breakfast or for the tea. 

2 Let's-- 

A Perhaps he would know. I don't know. 

e Let aa direct my questions to the tea at the Hay 
Adams. You indicated you. Colonel North, and Mr. Channell 
attended. Has there anyone else present? 



UNCLASSIFBEO 



386 



(402 
(403 

(40(4 

uos 

(406 
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(409 

(410 
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HIRIIUOOO ""^•■IIOiill'i/Kil ''*°^ '® 

A Yes> there ueze a couple fellows, but you know, i 

don't recall their names. One of them was in the--has a 

financial newspaper, and there was another fellow, but I am 

not sure who it was . I am bad with names . 

MR. nCGOUGH: Did you say one ran a financial 

newspaper or was in a financial newspaper? 

THE WITNESS: I think this fellow actually owns 

some kind of financial newspaper. That is what I was told. 

BY MR. FRYHAH- 

2 And was this a breakfast meeting? 

A No . We just had — it was about breakfast time, maybe 
8=30, 9-00 o'clock in the morning, but as I recall, we 
didn't have any breakfast. We just had tea. 

e Who arranged this meeting? 

A I believe Channell. Yes, Channell did, definitely. 

e How long did the meeting last? 

A Oh, seemed like 30 minutes to — possibly as long as 
(45 minutes or an hour, in that neighborhood. 

Q What subjects were discussed? 

A Oh, they talked about Nicaragua, in general, and 
the contra effort in Nicaragua, whether they were really 
doing any good, that type of thing. 

e Has there a discussion of the needs of the Freedom 
Fighters in Nicaragua? 

A from North, no. I don't recall North ever making 



UNCLASSIF2ED 



387 



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HIR1 14000 ^^^^LH^aiFSPi) "" '' 

any request for funds at all, no^BPf my presence, anyway. 
Perhaps Channell, yes. Channell would talk about the need 
for help for them. 

2 Apart, Mr. Hunt, from a request for funds, did Mr. 
North or Colonel Horth describe any shortages or needs of 
any sort that the resistance fighters had at that time? 

A I don't know when, but at one time he did say that 
the Russians had this terrific helicopter that was described 
as virtually a flying tank and that the helicopter was very 
tough and they had f urnished--the Russians had given 12 or 15 
of them to the Nicaraguans or were furnishing them and that 
the contras didn't have any anti-aircraft weapon to go 
against this helicopter. And he said they need' that, but he 
didn't, you know, ask for funds ox ask me to do anything 
about it. 

8 Any other types of weapons that ha specified that 
were needed? 

A No, I can't recall. 

As a matter of fact, I asked him--I do recall asking 
him about weapons. He said, ''Hell, the best thing to do 
is, in guerrilla fight, that you get your weapons from the 
other side,'* so, therefore, you use their ammunition and in 
that way — ioz instance, if you brought American weapons into 
Nicaragua, you couldn't use the Hicaraguan weapons or 
Russian meetings or Czechoslovaklan, I think, and you 



UNCLASSIFSEd 



388 



""^USSIFia 



KAME: HIRIIUOOO ^^'' IL.H P»GE 20 



U52 
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454 
USS 
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M61 
<462 
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U6M 
1465 
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■468 
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•470 
•47 1 
•472 
•473 
•47^4 
•475 
•476 



couldn't use their aanunition, their bullets in the American 
built guns. 

So, what you want to do is get — steal them from them. 

So. that is sort of standard in any guerrilla fight or 
freedom fight where you were trying to oust the other side. 
You try to get their weapons and oust them with their own 
weapons . 

8 Did he mention purchasing Soviet or East bloc 
weaons? 

A Kot to me, no, or not in front of me. 

fi With respect to the anti-aircraft weapon in 
opposition to the helicopters, did he specify any price for 
such weapons? 

A Ko, not to ma. 

S What did rtr . Channell say in connection with 
Colonel North's comments about the weapons? 

A I don't recall Channell saying anything. Channell 
is not a very specific Kind of person, and I don't recall 
him saying anything about it. 

fi Ware you asked to make a contribution after this 
breakfast meeting? 

A Ko, I don't believe so. 

Of course, Channell — you can't be around Channell 
very long without him asking for a contribution for 
something, but — which, of course, I did make a contribution 



^ftOUSSlfiEd 



389 



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UNCLASSIRED 



HIR114000 tiMI-l ll%rVILnL.Ll PAGE 21 

to his foundation; but I don't ti« it to this breakfast, 
though. 

Hy lawyer--! don't knou whether he wanted me to 
interject this or not--but he reminded me that the FBI guy 
told me that I did have dinner at the Dallas Petroleum Club 
with Channell and North at one time. I didn't remember it, 
and I still don't remember it, anything about the dinner, 
but Channell, I believe, did testify to that, according to 
the FBI fellow, that I did have dinner with North at the 
Dallas Petroleum Club, and Channell. 

2 But you do not recall that dinner? 

A Well, you know, I faintly do, but I am not 
positive . 

2 Do you recall anything that was said at that 
dinner? 

A No, I don't. I have no recollection of it, really. 

S Now, you mentioned another occasion with Colonel 
North where you attended a briefing; is that correct? 

A Yes. 

S When was that? 

A You Know, I can't recall. It was at the old office 
building or something connected with the White House. 

fi HoH large a group attended that briefing? 

A It looked like there were about 20 people here. 

2 Did you know anyone else? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



390 



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HIR1 1(4000 



UNCLASSIFSEO 



PAGE 22 



A Well> X knew tuo or threa oi than. 

2 Uho did you know? 

A I balieva Ellen Garwood nay hava baan there, but 
she may not have been. Sut--you know, I would be speculating 
i£ I gave you the names^ It seemed like there ware two or 
threa people there that I had met before. 

2 How long did this briefing last? 

A I would say 30, (45 minutes. 

2 Uho spoke other than Colonel North? 

A I don't know whether there was anyone there besides 
North or not. 

2 What did Colonel North speak about? 

A Well, it was sort of an update of the military 
situation that the Russians ware building an airport there 
where they could fly planes straight from Russia, and they 
had, X think, three-mile runways, very heavily built 
runways, and could line these planes, Russia, and fly back 
to Russia. 

It was one of the larger kind of military airports 
that was being built in the world or in existence in the 
world . 

2 Was there any discussion of military activity in 
Nicaragua? 

A No. 

You know, I don't recall anything specific other 



uncuss»f;eo 



391 



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551 



^NCUSSIFiED 



HIRI 14000 
than a discussion about that airport. 



PAGE 23 



Q Were any slides or projections of any sort shown? 

A I think he showed an aerial photograph of the 
airfield . 

S Were you asked to make a contribution either 
before, during, or after this meeting? 

A Not at that meeting. 

I think later, perhaps later that evening there was 
a dinner at the Hay Adams Hotel at which two or three of 
the--at least one or two of the Nicaragua contra people were 
there, I believe, including Adolfo Calero. I think they 
said that they needed contributions, yes. 

2 Was Colonel North at the dinner? 

A No, I don't believe he was there. I don't recall 
seeing him there. 

2 Going back to the briefing, were there any 
questions to Colonel North at the briefing? 

A I don't recall that there were. Like I say, there 
were 20 people in there, approximately 18 to 20 people, 
something like that. There might have been somebody asked a 
question or two, but I don't recall. 

2 Mas the format basically a presentation by Colonel 
North? 

A I would say so. 

2 It was not a question and answer session? 



UNCLASSIFSED 



392 



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HIR1 mooo 



UNCLASSlFStD 



PAGE 2t4 



A That is the way I recall it. 

2 At that briefing, did Colonel Korth make any 
statement to the effect that there are certain matters that, 
''We can't discuss on this side of Pennsylvania Avenue''? 

A I don't recall him saying that. I don't know what 
you would mean by ''this side of Pennsylvania Avenue.'' But 
I don't recall him saying that. He might have, but I have 
no recollection of it. 

2 The dinner that evening at the Hay Adams, you said 
Kr . Calero attended and you believe Colonel North did not 
attend? 

A That is my recollection. 

2 Did Hr . Channell attend? 

A Yes, he was there. 

2 Did Richard Hiller attend? 

A He could have. I am not sure who Richard Miller 
is. I don't believe I Know him — may have met him, but I 
don't recall him. 

2 Who else do you recall attending that dinner? 

A Oh, there must have been UO, 50 people, but I don't 
recall anybody. I was by myself, as I recall. I don't 
recall who else was there. 



WWCl/ISSIfJ£D 



i 



393 



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t^NCUSS/F;ED 



PAGE 25 



HIR1 mooo 

RPTS DOTSOM 
DCHK GLASSMAP 
MO: 30 a.m. ) 



BX HR. FRYHAH: 

2 Has thera any taquast for contributions during the 
dinner ? 

A Yas. Cal^aro spoka and a i»u others, Nick Robert, 
uhatavar . 

2 Uhat reasons ware given as to why it was needed? 

A To feed them and shelter them. 

2 They said they needed weapons? 

A They didn't say anything about weapons. 

HR. FRYHAK: Hhy don't we adjourn for just a couple 
minutes . 

[ Recess . 1 

BY HR. FRYMAH: 

S Mr. Hunt, have you ever met Elliott Abrams? 

A I don't place that name. 

2 I am referring to the Assistant Secretary oi State 
fox Latin American Affairs . 

A I don't believe so. 

e Have you ever met President Reagan? 

A Yes, X have met him. 

2 On how many occasions? 



UNCLASSIFȣD 



394 



^wci/iss/fe 



HAHE: HIRIIUOOO Wll Ll I U X VI L M I^f^ PAGE 26 

599 A Oh, I hava been with ^~group of maybe 15 or 20 on 

600 two oz three occasions. I was at the White House ior dinner 
60 1 one time at the White House. I met him once in his office 

602 at the White House. 

603 2 So is it your recollection that you have met with 
60<4 him a total of approximately five times? 

605 A Maybe five or six or seven, but they were all in 

606 group meetings, really, you know, except for the one time. 

607 fi What was the occasion when you met in his office? 

608 A Channell asked me if I would like to, when I was 

609 going to be in Washington, if I would like to stop by and 
6 10 meet the President, and I said, ''Sure, I would be 

611 delighted.'* That was the time. 

6 12 fi Did this meeting follow a contribution that you 

6 13 made to one of Mr. Channell 's organizations? 

61U A Wall, I had contributed to Channell's organizations 

6 15 in the past and previously. 

6 16 fi What was the approximate time of this meeting with 

6 17 the President in his office? 

618 A I would say 10 minutes. 

6 19 e Did this occur in 1986? 

620 A Again, I am not real sure of the timeframe. I just 

621 lose track oi meetings. I expect it may have been early 

622 1986 or late 1985, somewhere in that neighborhood. 

623 e Who else was present other than you and the 



UNCLASSIFSED 



395 



UNCLASSIFJED 



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President? 

A I hate to admit it, but there was a fellow there, 
and I didn't--! can't recall his name. He seemed to be a 
friend of the President's. 

2 Was Kr . Channell present? 

A No, he wasn't. 

2 Was the other person an employee at the White 
House ? 

A No, I think he had--he told me he had been with 
Reagan, President Reagan, back when ha was Governor of 
California, and maybe he was with the President for a year 
or two after he became President here, but he was no longer 
with the Government. I think he was sort of in the public 
relations field, or something along that line, here in 
Washington. 

2 Was this person Hr . Nofzi*ger? 

A No. it wasn't Nofziager. 

2 Was it nz . Deaver? 

A It wasn't Hr . Deaver. I know both of them. I had 
never heard his name before; otherwise, I think I could have 
remembered It. 

e Has it Hz. Rowland? 

A X don't know. 

2 What subjects were discussed during your meeting 
with the President? 



UNCLASSIF'ED 



396 



6(49 
650 
651 
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655 
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bS7 
658 
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669 
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671 
672 
673 



HIR1 UOOO 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 28 



A Hell, it was shortly — as a tiaaframa, I can tia it 
down — it was within a month or so of the bombing of Libya. 
Ue talked mostly about Libya, because I had been in Libya as 
an oil concession holder for 15-20 years, and I have been 
all over Libya, looking at geology and exploring for oil, 
and ua talked, I gave the President my impressions of Libya. 

I told him if he sent a couple companies of Marines along, 
or Army along with the bombers, I think everybody in Libya 
would have jumped on the band wagon. 

e Uas there any discussion of Central America during 
this meeting? 

A Ko, there really wasn't. The President said he had 
heard that I had been helpful and various things, and he 
wanted me to know ha appreciated it, and I responded. 

e What did you understand that he meant when he said 
he heard you had been helpful? 

A I don't know, I would be speculating. 

Q Has this in relation to contributions to Mr. 
Channell's organizations? 

A He didn't specify, but perhaps that may have been. 

a Yet you recall him saying in substance he heard 
that you had been helpful? 

X I think he said something like that, yes. 

e And he expressed his appreciation for this? 

A Yes. 



^fioussmiB 



397 



NAHE: 

6714 
675 
676 
677 
678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
68>4 
685 
686 
687 
688 
689 
690 
691 
692 
693 
69>4 
695 
696 
697 
698 



HIR1 14000 



UNCLASSIFSED 



PAGE 29 



2 Vlas thara any mantion at all oi Nicaragua? 

A No > I don't recall any spaciiic mantion of 
Nicaragua. 

2 Any rafaianca at all to Central America in any uay? 

A No. As a matta'r oi fact. I sort of regretted it 
after I got out. I was thinking. ''Why did I talk about 
Libya? I am not in Libya any mora, and Libya is sort of 
water out of the dam, why didn't I ask hia about 
Nicaragua?'' But I really didn't get into it. 

2 What did you want to ask him? 

A What he thought about it and so forth. 

5 Now. you mentioned that you also attended a dinner 
at the White House. 

A Oh, yes. That was soma years ago. The President 
of Sri Lanka and his wife ware there, and I don't know how I 
came to be invited, but I was. I really didn't want to go, 
but my wife said, ''We had battaz go, you may never get 
invited again.*' I said, ''You aza probably right, we 
probably won't gat invited again. If you really want to go. 
I will go . ' ' 

e Was this dinner prior to 1985? 

A It saams like to ma it was several years ago. You 
know, thzaa or four years ago. 

6 Now, you also said you have mat with the President 
in small groups on two or three other occasions? 



,UNCUSSl?"^E3 



398 



KAHE: 

699 
700 
701 
702 
703 
701* 
70S 
706 
707 
708 
709 
710 
711 
712 
713 
71U 
715 
716 
717 
718 
719 
720 
721 
722 
723 



UNCLASSIF3ID "" " 

5. Small or large. ATTd" met hin when 



HIR1 1M000 

A Yes. Small or laFgiT "ATTd"! met him when he was 
actually campaigning for President back ten years ago now, I 
guess . 

2 Other than your meeting in his office that you have 
described, have you had any other meeting with the President 
at any time during the last three years? 

A I believe I am a member of an organization. 
Citizens for America, and I believe sometime Lou Lehrman and 
about seven or eight other members, who were members of that 
organization, met with him. 

e Hhen was that? 

A I think that would have been back in 1983 or 198i4. 

Q What was the purpose of that meeting? 

A I think just a good-will proposition. The 
organization. Citizens for America, was a strong supporter 
of President Reagan in his re-election efforts, and Lou 
Lehrman arranged a meeting, and not much was said, just more 
shaking hands than anything else. 

e Has Central America discussed at all? 

A No. 

fi Do you have any official position in Citizens for 
America? 

A No, other than contributor. 

S You are not a board member? 

A I don't believe so. I don't recall — if I am a board 



UNCLASSIFSED 



399 



KAHE: 
724 
725 
726 
727 
728 
729 
730 
731 
732 
733 
734 
735 
736 
737 
738 
739 
7U0 
7m 
7i*2 
7U3 
744 
745 
746 
747 
748 



HIR1 14000 
roembez, I do 



UNCLASSIFED " 

on't zAcall evsr baing at a iia«td 



2 nz . Hunt, hav« you avaz mada any paymants of any 
kind ralatad in any way to Hicatagua? 

A Not spaciiically . I hava givan, I think, sonathing 
to Woody Jankins rafugaas fund, and I contributed to 
•'Spitz'' Channall's foundation, and that was to help the 
Kicataguan Fraadon Fighters. 

C Any other contributions or paymants of any sort 
other than to Channell and Jenkins? 

A I don't believe so. I don't think--did I bring 
copies of-- 

HR. IRUIK: Can we go oii the record? 
[Discussion oii the record.] 

THE WITNESS: You asked about Singlaub earlier. I 
think I perhaps may have been solicited once by mail or 
something about General Singlaub, but I don't recall ever 
contributing. If I did, it wasn't much. 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 

Q Other than Singlaub, the Channell organizations and 
Hr . Jenkins' organization, do you recall any other 
contributions or payments of any sort? 

A No. I don't. 

e Now. directing your attention to the contribution 
to Hr. Channell, what prompted that contribution, or 
contributions? 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



400 



7U9 
750 
751 
752 
753 
7SU 
755 
756 
757 
758 
759 
760 
761 
762 
763 
764 
765 
766 
767 
768 
769 
770 
771 
772 
773 



UNCLASSIFSED 



HXR11U000 llimil UWILJUlI page 32 

A Channell said they had a lot of unpaid bills, and 
the Freedom Fighter effort was, I think, having problems 
trying to pay bills. So I told them I would make a 
contribution . 

2 Uhen he referred to unpaid bills, you understood 
that to be unpaid bills of the Contras, not Hr . Channell 's 
organization. Is that correct? 

A That was my impression, yes. 

2 Did anyone else speak to you about a contribution 
to his organization other than Hr . Channell? 

A Ho , no . 

2 How many contributions did you make? 

A X believe I made two. X think X made one at one 
time plus a loan, and then X later made the second 
contribution . 

2 Now, did you make the first contribution and the 
loan in response to his request for funds to meet unpaid 
bills? 

A Yes . 

S And what did he say these were unpaid bills for? 

A Food and shelter, medicine, just general expenses 
of the Contxas . He said he was raising money 
helplng--raising money for the Contras. 

X recall asking if they were paying salaries for 
anybody, are you going to pay them to fight? He said, no. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



401 



NAHE : 

774 
775 
lib 
111 
778 
11<) 
780 
781 
782 
783 
784 
785 
786 
161 
788 
789 
790 
791 
792 
793 
794 
795 
796 
797 
798 



UNCLASSIFSED 



HIRimOOO IdMI'l llWII-Urki PAGE 33 

they got no salaries. They got no pay or no salaries. All 
they did was ieed them and try to help then. 

fi Did he speak about the need ior weapons? 

A Ho. Channell never did to ne . 

2 Any nention of weapons at all? 

A I think I asked him, ''What about weapons?*' And 
he said they had enough, they could steal them or they were 
being given to them by the people on the other side, the 
Sandinistas. No charge to them. 

Q Did you ask him about these missiles ior the 
Russian helicopters? 

A I don't recall ever talking to Channell about that. 

2 Now, you say you made a contribution and a loan, 
and then you made a second contribution. 

A Yes . 

2 First, was the loan repaid? 

A Yes , it was . 

2 What then prompted the second contribution? 

A Hell, they still needed money at a later period oi 
time, so I decided to go ahead and make the second 
contribution. 

2 Did Hr . Channell call you again? 

A I believe he did, yes. 

2 Now, these contributions that you just described, 
they were made through your law firm, were they not? 



t^NClASSIFJEO 



402 



NAME 
799 
800 
80 1 
802 
803 
80<4 
805 
806 
807 
808 
809 
810 
811 
812 
813 

8114 

815 
816 
817 
818 
819 
820 
821 
822 
823 



HIR1 mooo 



Yas. 



UNCLASSIRED 



PAGE 3(4 



fi What was tha zaason for that? 

A Uall> I pzafazzad not to read my nana in tha 
Washington Post oz othaz libaral madia, and so I decided to 
make tha contributions through tha law firm. 

2 Did nr . Channall suggest that tha contribution be 
made in that manner? 

A Mo. 

2 That uas your idea? 

A Yes, it was. 

fi Have you made other contributions through your law 
firm? 

A I don't recall that I have. 

fi Hhy did you believe there was a greater risk of 
publicity as to this contribution? 

A Wall, I thought the Foundation would have to report 
the sources of their contributions, I could be wrong about 
this, and I preferred not to put my name up at that time. 

fi Kow, you mentioned the original contribution was 
accompanied by a loan, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

fi What was the reason for the loan? 

A Hall> they needed the money, so I told them I would 
contribute an amount, and Z would loan them the money. 

fi How, you said tha loan was repaid, is that correct? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



403 



liNCLASSIFSED 



NAME: HIRimOOO ^^ ■ * "kfllJlJ I T B L. I f P AGE 35 



82U 
825 

826 
827 
828 
829 
830 
831 
832 
833 
8314 
835 
836 
837 
838 
839 
8U0 
BUI 
8U2 
8U3 

ann 

8U5 
8146 
8<47 
8(48 



A I believa so, yas . 

2 Kou, shortly aitttr th« loan was r«paid, did you 
make a second gift in appcoxinately the sane anount as the 
loan repayment? 

A Yes, I did. 

S What was the reason for that? 

A That was the way to make the second contribution. 
I was hoping they would raise the money from somebody else, 
but they didn't, so I went ahead and contributed the second 
amount . 

2 You mentioned earlier that you knew Ellen Garwood? 

A Yes, I have met her. 

e Were you aware that she was a contributor to tlz'. 
Channell's organization? 

A At some point in time, I think I heard that she 
was, yes. 

2 Do you know a John Ramsey? 

A I don't place him. Where is he from? 
m. nc GOUGH: Wichita rails, Texas. 
THE WITNESS: I have probably met him. but I really 
can't place him. 

BY MR. FRYHAK: 

e You don't recall any meetings or discussions with 
Mr. Ramsey? 

A Ho, I never recall speaking to Mr. Ramsey, no. 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



404 



NAHE: 
8t(9 
850 
851 
852 
853 
85U 
855 
856 
857 
858 
859 
860 

86 1 
862 
863 
86>4 
865 
866 
867 
868 
869 
870 

87 1 
872 
873 



HiRi mooo 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 36 



2 What oth«z parsons do you knou contributed to Mr. 
Channall's organizations? 

A I never did ask him who else was contributing, and 
he didn't tell me. 

S Do you knou anyone else in Texas who told you that 
they were making contributions to any of Mr. Channell's 
organizations? 

A Ko> Z don't know anyone. As a matter of fact. I am 
not sure, I think I just read about Ellen Garwood in the 
paper, that she had contributed to Channell's organizations. 

So I had never heard it from Channell or her. but I did 
read it in the paper, so I assume maybe there is some 
validity to it. 

e Do you know of anyone else who has contributed 
money or made any payments for the purpose of weapons for 
use in Nicaragua? 

A I didn't make any contributions for purchase of 
weapons, and I don't know of anyone else that has. 

£ Going back to the second contribution that you 
referred to that occurred approximately the same time as the 
repayment of the loan, why was the amount of that 
contribution closely related to the amount of the loan 
repayment? 

X Ko specific reason, except that Channell said they 
still needed money, he was unable to raise money, and I just 



UNCLASSIFSEd 



405 



UNCLASSlF3£t) 



NAHE: HIR1K4000 ll|l||LnwOII ■■-^ PAGE 37 

874 offhandedly said I will just maka tha loan a contribution. 

875 so that was tha way it occurred. 

876 HR. FRYHAK: If ue could go off tha record. 

877 (Discussion off tha record.) 

878 HR. FRYMAN: Let me go back on the record. 

879 I ask the reporter to nark as Hunt Deposition 

880 Exhibit 1 for identification a subpoena of the House of 

881 Representatives issued April 13, 1987, directed to Nelson 

882 Bunker Hunt, together with an attached schedule and 

883 appendix. 

SSU .[The Following Document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 

885 1 for Identification. 1 
886 

887 MXMMXxxxx* COHHITTEE INSERT »xxxx«xx« 



^ftcussmid 



406 



NANE 
888 
889 
890 
891 
892 
893 
89(4 
895 
896 
897 
898 
899 
900 
901 
902 
903 
90(( 
905 
906 
907 
908 
909 
910 
91 1 
912 



HIR1 mooo 



UNCLASSIFeED 



PAGE 38 



BY MR. FRYHANt 
a I show you Hunt Exhibit 1 for identification. That 
is a copy of th« subpoena that you ueze served with, is it 
not? 

A Yes, it is. 

Q And you are appearing here today pursuant to that 
subpoena? 

A Yes. I an. 

MR. FRYKAN: X would also just note for the record 
prior to the conmencenent of the deposition, I provided to 
Mr. Hunt's Counsel, Mr. Irwin, a copy of the resolution 
establishing the Select Coanittee of the House of 
Representatives and a copy of the rules of the Select 
Comnittee . 

I ask the reporter to mark as Hunt Exhibit 2 for 
identification a group of docunents which have been produced 
by counsel for Hr . Hunt. The documents are numbered H.R. 1 
through H.R. 325. 

There is also one page which is not numbered, which 
is an article from the Wall Street Journal, dated August 23, 
1985. headed, or with the headline ''Taking the Sandinistas 
at Their Word.'* The exhibit consists of the documents that 
were produced. There have been placed certain tabs on 
certain of the documents, and those tabs are not part of the 
exhibit. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



407 



UNCLASSIFSED 



MAKE: HIRimOOO UllVknWWll B k k^ pAGE 39 



913 
914 
915 
916 



.[The Following Documents were marked as Hunt 
Exhibit 2 for Identification. 1 

xxxxMwxxxM COMMITTEE INSERT «******»« 



UNCLASSIFIED 



408 



UNCLASSIFBED 



name: HiRimooo UlltjLHOilirHE.EJ page uo 



917 
918 
919 
920 
921 
922 
923 
9214 
925 
926 
927 
928 
929 
930 
931 
932 
933 
934 
935 
936 
937 
938 
939 
9tt0 
941 



RPTS DOTSON 
DCnN DANIELS 

BY MR. FRYMAN: 
e X show you and youz counsal Hunt Exhibit 2 for 
identification and X ask you to confirm that that is tha 
documants that you hava producad in response to the subpoena 
of the House of Representatives. 

HR. XRUXN: Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 

MR. XRUIN: That is what we producad. 
BY HR. FRYMAN: 
e After tha receipt of tha subpoena that is 
Deposition Exhibit 1 . did you direct that a search be made 
of your files for all of the documents called for in the 
subpoena? 

A Yes. That is the standard form. He try to turn it 
over to our laadax> In-housa counsal, and ha is always 
instructed to fulfill whatever tha requests are. 

e And is it youz understand that Hunt Exhibit 2 for 
identification consists of all tha documents in your files 
that are called for by the subpoena? 

A Yes. as far as I Know. Nothing was withheld as far 
as I know. 

HR. FRYMAN: x now intend to mark as additional 



UNCLASSIHED 



409 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIR11MO0O U 11 VLfl W W I F H b L7 PkQZ U 1 



9(42 
943 
944 
945 
9146 
9147 
9148 
949 
950 



exhibits certain specific pages which axe a part of Hunt 
Exhibit 2 for identification. 

I ask the reporter to mark as Hunt Exhibit 2-1 for 
identification a request for check dated September 17, 1985, 
which is identified as Exhibit HR-36. 

[The following docuaant was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-1 for identification : ] 

xxxxxxxxxx COMMITTEE INSERT «««x**x*« 



UNCLASSIFIED 



410 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



NAHE: HIRimOOO •#■!%# •■f"*^^^ ■ ■ ■ " ■-' p^gj ^j 



I 



951 

952 
953 
9514 
955 
956 
957 



KR. FRYHAN: I ask tha zeportAr to nark as Hunt 2-2 
ior idantlfication a copy oi a check datad Saptambaz 17, 
1985, No. 10U2725, which is mazkad Documant HR-37. 

[Tha following docunant was markad as Hunt Ko . 
Exhibit 2-2 foz idantiiication = 1 

xxxxxxxxMx COHMITTEE IMSERT xxxxxxxx* 



UNCLASSfftK 



411 



UNC14SSIRE9 



KAHE: HIRIItOOO Wlfl/LH >1 JMP U fri L 1 PACE '«3 



958 
959 
960 
96 1 
962 
963 
96t4 



nR. FRYMAN: j ask tha reporter to nark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-3 ioz identification another request ior check 
dated September 17, 1985, which is marked Document HR-'46. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-3 for identification: ] 

xxMxxxMxxx COHHITTEE INSERT ********* 



412 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAHE: HIR114000 ^» ■ ■ ^T fcI-B*#^# ■ ■ B ■■ t^ pftcE 4l« 



965 
966 
967 
968 
969 
970 
971 
972 



MR. FRYHAN: I asK the teport«r to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-<4 for idantiiication anothez chack datad Septerobei 
17, 1985, numbered 10U2726, which is a document marked HR- 
•47. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
Ko . 2->4 for identification:] 

yKxxxxMx*** COMHITTEE INSERT «*«»«**** 



UNCLftSS»F5tO 



413 



973 
9714 
975 
976 
977 
978 
979 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HIKIIUOOO Ullljl U J%^ I r U !■ k I PAGE tS 



HR. FRYtlAN: I ask th« raportsr to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-5 for identification a cequsst fox check dated 
September 27, 1985, which is marked Document HR-US. 

(The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-5 for identification:) 

xxxxxxxxxK COHHITTEE INSERT »****»*»* 



UNCUSS\F5£0 



414 



NAHE: HIRl lUOOO 



980 
981 
982 
983 
984 
985 
986 
987 
988 
989 
990 
99 1 
992 
993 
994 
995 
996 
997 
998 
999 
1000 
1001 
1002 
1003 
100>4 



*MSS/f^£0"" " 



BY MR 

fi Hr . Hunt, I would ask you to look at Hunt Exhibits 
2-1, 2-2, 2-3, 2-4 and 2-5, for identification. I ask you 
first to direct your attention to the two checks, which are 
2-2 and 2-4. 

One is Check 1042725 and then No. 2-4, which is 
1042726. 

Each of those checks is in the amount of $237,500. 

Kow, are those the checks to your law firm that were to be 
the source of funds for a contribution and a loan to Mr. 
Channell's organization? 

A Yes, they were. 

2 Kow, what was the reason for choosing the amount 
♦237,500? 

A I believe it totals 4475,000, and I believe that 
was the amount that Channell said they needed to get up on 
all their past-due bills and what not. 

2 Is it your recollection you gave him what he asked 
for? 

A Yes. Half of it was a contribution and half was a 
loan, as I recall. 

e Mow, Exhibits 2-1, 2-3, and 2-5 for identification 
are requests for check forms: are they not? 

A Yes, they are. 

2 And are they all signed by you? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



415 



HAKE: 
1005 
1006 
1007 
1008 
1009 
1010 
101 1 
1012 
1013 

lom 

1015 
1016 
1017 
1018 
1019 
1020 
1021 
1022 
1023 
1024 
1025 
1026 
1027 
1028 
1029 



HIR1 14000 



^f^OUssiFIEd 



PAGE i«7 



Yes, th*y aza . 



e Now, Exhibit 2-5 is a requast ior chack dated 
September 27, 1985, for *237,500. That date is after the 
date of the checks which are Exhibits 2-2 and 2-4. 

Do you know if that request relates to another 
check, Hr. Hunt? 

A No, it doesn't relate to another check. It was 
just one of those things that checks got prepared before the 
request . 

S On Exhibit 2-5, I direct your attention to the 
information that apparently has been stamped in some way on 
that form which appears to be 9-17-85, AFP. 
What does that represent? 

A I am not sure. I am sure the 9-17-85 would refer 
to the date; perhaps the date of the check. AFP, I don't 
know--do you know what that is? 
MR. IRHIK: No. 
BY MR. FRYMAN: 

2 Did you sign each of Exhibits 2-1, 2-3, and 2-5? 

A Yes, X signed all three. 

2 Is it possible that 2-1 and 2-3 are two copies of 
the same request form? 

A This one and this one? 

fi No, this one and this one. 

A Hell, I guess it is possible, but it does have a 



UNCLASSIFIED 



416 



KAHE' 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
103i« 
1035 
1036 
1037 
1038 
1039 
1040 

lom 

10i«2 
10M3 
10M4 
1045 
1046 
1047 
1048 
1049 
1050 
1051 
1052 
1053 
1054 



HIR1 14000 



difierent dat 



PCLASSIFiED 



PAGE 48 



HR. IRHIN: No, he is talking about — axcusa me — the 
ones that axe the sane date, may be the same. 

THE WITNESS: What was the question? 

BY HR. FRXMANi 
2 What I am really interested in determining, and 
maybe I asked the question the wrong way: Were there two 
separate checks for S237,500 that are represented by the two 
requests for check forms which are Exhibits 2-1 and 2-3? 

A Well, I sent two checks, as I recall, to Channell's 
foundation for the same amount, and my recollection was that 
one was a contribution, one was a loan at that time. 

I don't know whether that answers the question or 
not, but that is my recollection of it. 
e All right. 

So while there are three requests for check forms, 
your recollection is that you had prepared two checks? 

A I think I asked Irwin to do that, yes, to make the 
contribution of two checks, and I assume that is what we 
did, we sent them two checks. 

HR. FRYMAN: i ask the reporter to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-6 for identification a check to Hr . Hunt for 
«237,500, which is marked Ooctment HR-56. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-6 for identification:] 



UNCLASSiFBED 



417 



UNCLASSIFSED 



NAME: HIRimOOO HAIAI ■ f^ A I m H* r\ PAGE 149 

1055 
1056 *xx)«*xxxxx COnniTTEE INSERT ***x****x 



UNCLASSIFIED 



418 



NAHE: HIRIIUOOO 



1057 
1058 
1059 
1060 
1061 
1062 
1063 
10614 
1065 
1066 
1067 
1068 
1069 
1070 
107 1 
1072 
1073 
10714 
1075 



UNCLASSfFED - - i 



BY HR. FRYHAN: 

2 Mr. Hunt, I show you Exhibit 2-6 for identiiication 
and ask you to identify that document. 
k You asked me to identify it? 
2 Yes. 

What does that check represent? What do you 
understand that represents? 

A Hell, it is a check from Shank, Irwin to myself for 
♦237,500. 

2 Do you understand that as the repayment of the loan 
from Mr. Channell that you referred to? 
A I believe it was, yes. 

MR. FRYMAK: I ask the reporter to mark as Hunt" 
Exhibit 2-7 for identification a check dated March 13, 1986, 
which is Document HR-50. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
Ko . 2-7 for identification: ] 

xxxxxxxxxx COMMITTEE INSERT xxxxxxxxx 



UNCLASSIFIED 



419 



1076 
1077 
1078 
1079 
1080 
1081 
1082 



UNCLASSIFiED 



NAni: HIR11'4000 l||y|-| UXAirUrU page 51 



HR. FRYMAH: i ask tha rsportat to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-8 for identification a raquast for chack dated 
flarch 14, 1986, which is marked Document HR-S1. 

(The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-8 for identif ication^ I 

X********* COMMITTEE INSERT «*«*««««x 



UNCLASSIFSED 



420 



UNCLASSIFSED 



KAHE: HIR11U000 W II V ■■nW^#l ■ ■■■k-' pAGE 52 



1083 
10814 
1085 
1086 
1087 
1088 
1089 
1090 
1091 
1092 
1093 
10914 
1095 
1096 
1097 
1098 
1099 
1 100 
1101 
1 102 



BY MR. FRYHAH: 

2 Mr. Hunt, I shou you Exhibit 2-7 for 
identification' which is a check from you to the law firn 
for $237,000, and I ask you what that check represents. 

A Well, it is a payment from me to the law firm of 
«237,000, which I think was a request for them to make a 
second contribution to Channell's foundation. 

2 And I show you Exhibit 2-8 for identification. Is 
that the request for which you prepared that led to the 
issuance of Exhibit 2-7? 

A Apparently so, yes. 

2 Does that contain your signature? 

A Yes, it does. 

nR. FRYHAN: I ask the reporter to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-9 for identification a check dated July 16, 1985, 
for «10,000, which is Document No. HR-39. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-9 for identification-. 1 

xxxxxxxxxx COHHITTEE INSERT **«x«x«x* 



UNCLASSIFBED 



421 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HIRHUOOO ^» ■ » ^#fcri*# Wi I I b b/ PAGE S3 



1 103 
1 104 
1 105 
1 106 
1 107 
1 108 
1 109 



riR. FRYHAN: I ask the raportat to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-10 for identification a request ior check dated 
July 15, 1985, which is Document Mo. HR-UO. 

[The iollouing document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-10 ior identification:] 

xxxxxxxxxx COHHITTEE INSERT **x»«xx** 



UNCLASSIFSED 



422 



UNCLASSIFED 



MAME' HIR11U000 VllWknWWII UkL/ PAGE 5<« 



1110 
1111 
1 112 
1113 
1 1 IM 
1 1 IS 
1 1 16 
1 117 



HR. FRYMAN: I ask th« raporter to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-11 ior idantiiication a docunant with soma printed 
information and soma handwriting which is marked as Document 
HR-m . 

( Tha following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 2-11 for identification:] 

itcxxxxxxxxx COMHITTEE INSERT xxxxxxxxx 



UNCLASSIF8ED 



423 



WWCiyiSSIfJED " 



NAn£: hirhuooo VIIIjI MJ% XI^ uk L I page 55 



1 1 18 
1119 
1 120 
112 1 
1 122 
1123 
1 124 
1 125 
1 126 
1 127 



BY HR. FRYHAH: 

2 Mr. Hunt, I show you Exhibits 2-9 and 2-10 ior 
identification. 

Is Exhibit 2-9 a check for *10,000 uhich you had 
made payable to the National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty? 

A Yes. That is correct. 

2 And is Exhibit 2-10 the request for check form that 
led to that check? 

A Yes, it appears so. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



424 



NAME 
1 128 
1 129 
1 130 
1131 
1 132 
1 133 
1 13i« 
1 135 
1 136 
1137 
1 138 
1 139 
1 1(40 

1 im 

1 1(42 
1 113 
1 1(4(4 
1 1(45 
1 1(46 
1 1(47 
1 1(48 
1 1(49 
1 150 
1 151 
1152 



WNCLASSIFSED 



HIR1114000 *'■« wLflOOIrBr H PAGE 56 

RPTS DIHKEL 
DCHN GILE 



Q And is Exhibit 2-10 signed by you? 

A Yes. 

8 This contribution in July 1985 was made by a check 
dtaun on your own account, was it not? 

A That is correct. 

2 And the contributions we have talked about earlier 
were made through your law iira and not on your own account? 

A That is right. 

2 What was the reason for the change? 

A Well, the larger amount--didn' t want to have the 
publicity on the larger amount. 

2 I show you Exhibit 2-11 for identification. Does 
that contain your handwriting? 

A Yes, it does. 

2 What does the handwriting state? 

A It says ''National Endowment for the Preservation 
of Liberty Foundation, 10305 (4th Street, N.E., Washington, 
B.C. " 

2 What do you recall about making that note? 

A I don't have a recollection. 

2 What is the note written on? 

A It is written on an invitation that my wife and X 



UNCLASSIFSED 



425 



NAHE: 
1 153 
1 154 
1 155 
1 156 
1 157 
1 158 
1 159 
1 160 
116 1 
1 162 
1 163 

1 leu 

1 165 
1 166 
1 167 
1 168 
1 169 
1 170 
1171 
1 172 
1 173 
1 174 
1 175 
1 176 
1 177 



HIR1 14000 



«NCIASSIFJED 



PAGE 57 

gave a party for a couple oi people in Dallas. My secretary 
has a habit of using those up as sort oi note pads. She 
must have given that to me as something to make the note on. 

2 So, the fact that the note is on that invitation 
does not necessarily mean that you made the note either at 
the event reflected on the invitation or some other event in 
connection with that matter? 

A No. It B» no connection with it at all. This uas 
a social affair that ue--my wife and I had for ■■^^Hl and 
i^BIMMIt ' and this could have been a year later. Just used 
the same--as I say, my secretary hates to throw those things 
auay . She keeps them around and uses them as note pads. 

I am surprised I put that on there. Must have had 
some of them laying on lay desk and did it while I had it 
handy, before I might have forgotten what I was supposed to 
do. 

2 Mr. Hunt, I am going to show you a group of pages 
of the documents which your counsel produced which are 
marked numbers HR-57 through HR-86 . 

I an not going to natk these as separate sub- 
eKhibits, but I would like you to look at these pages which 
appear to be pages from your daily calendar. And I would 
like you to identify for the record and read into the record 
entries on each of those pages that relate to the subpoena. 
HR. IRHIK: Let's go off the record. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



426 



NAME 
1178 
1 179 
1 180 
1 181 
1 182 
1 183 
1 18(4 
1 185 
1 186 
1 187 
1 188 
1 189 
1 190 
1 191 
1 192 
1 193 
1 194 
1 195 
1 196 
1 197 
1198 
1 199 
1200 
1201 
1202 



HIR1 14000 



(Discussion off the record.] 



PAGE 58 



MR. fRYHAH: Let's go back on the record and 
explain what these are. 
BY HR. FRYHAH: 

2 Mr. Hunt, looking at the pages which I have shown 
you, can you, first, describe to me what those pages are? 

A Hell, they appear to be photostatic copies of 
appointment books. They appear to have dates on them. They 
are photostat copies of my secretary's appointment calendar 
or--what you would call an appointment calendar. 

2 These are not records that you maintained yourself? 

A No, I don't. 

8 Have you seen these before? 

A No , I haven't. 

2 Mr. Hunt, I show you the page marked HR-69 from 
your secretary's calendar, and I direct your attention to 
the entry for June 27, 1985, which apparently has a 
reference to Spitz Channell, Washington meeting, 7^00 
o'clock, and the White House. 

Does that refresh your recollection about the time 
or details of any meeting that you had in Washington? 

A Well, I see the--I see it on the calendar. I don't 
associate the date, June 27, 1985. X don't recall anything 
with reference to that date. 

It might have been I was invited up here but didn't 



UNCLASSIFIED 



427 



NAHE: 
1203 
1204 
1205 
1206 
1207 
1208 
1209 
1210 
1211 
1212 
1213 
1214 
1215 
1216 




HiRimooo wiiui Mj%^ifi.nK. : 1 page 59 

come, or it might hava meant thalTl'did come. I just don't 
know. But I would say it is one or the other, either I was 
invited and came or I was invited and didn't come. 

MR. nCGOUGH: That just about covers all 
possibilities . 

THE WITNESS: In other words, I don't think she was 
invited . 

MR. FRYMAN: j asK the reporter to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-12 for identification a document marked HR-186. 
which is a letter from Oliver North dated January 2H , 1986. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
2-12 for identification: ] 

xxxxxxxxxx COnniTTEE INSERT xxxxxxxxx 



UNCLASSiFBED 



428 



«NCLASSIF3E0 



NAME' HIRIIUOOO ^" * VkflOO 1 1 fl P I I PAGE 60 



1217 
1218 
1219 
1220 
1221 
1222 
1223 
122(4 
1225 
1226 
1227 
1228 
1229 
1230 
1231 
1232 
1233 
123t4 
1235 
1236 
1237 
1238 
1239 
12>40 
12U1 



BY HR. FRYHAM: 

2 Mr. Hunt, I show you Exhibit 2-12 for 
identiiication and ask you i£ that is a letter that you 
received from Colonel North? 

A Yes, apparently so. 

8 Do you recall receiving other letters from Colonel 
North? 

A No. 

As a matter of fact, I never read that before 
yesterday. My lawyer showed it to me, and the reason I am 
sura I didn't read it, I always initial in the upper right- 
hand corner anything I read, and so I didn't initial it. 

I am sorry I didn't read this at the time it came 
in. I missed it. 

2 What is the word written in the upper right-hand 
corner ? 

A Seems to be ''appreciation.'* 

2 Do you Know who wrote that? 

A I think probably my secxataxy. If not my 
secretaxy, th* secxataxy that xaad th« lattax when it came 
in. 

2 Is there some pxocedure for screening mail for you? 

A Hall, my secxetaxy opens all the mail, and X guess 
she divides it up into something that I need to answer or 
don't need to answer. And I gathex what must have happened 



UNCLASSIRED 



429 



NAME: 
1242 
1243 
124U 
1245 
1246 
1247 
1248 
1249 
1250 
1251 
1252 
1253 
1254 
1255 
1256 
1257 
1258 



^f*oussm£Q 



HXR114000 '^"" WL?flmS.1IB* uU ^1 PAGE 61 
on this ona--b«causa I haven't s«en it b«£oi«--uas that sinca 
it was ' 'appraciation' ' it didn't raally call ior an answar. 

It was satting in tha stack, and I navez saw that 
stack o£ my mail. I am sorzy I didn't. 

2 Do you zacall racaiving lattazs iron Pzasidant 
Raagan? 

A Mo. 

Wall, I got a Chzistmas card from him, but I don't 
zacall avaz gatting a lattar oi this typa, thanking ma ior 
ray contribution. 

MR. rRYHAK: I ask tha zapoztaz to mazk as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-13 ior idantiiication a mamorandum oi a talaphona 
call which is document HR-246. 

[Tha iollowing document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
2-13 ior idantiiication:] 

xjKxxx***)!!* COnniTTEE INSERT *«««x»»*« 



UNCLASSIHED 



430 



KAME' 

12S9 
1260 
1261 
1262 
1263 
126(4 
1265 
1266 
1267 
1268 
1269 
1270 
127 1 
1272 
1273 
1274 
1275 
1276 
1277 
1278 
1279 
1280 
1281 
1282 
1283 



HIR1 14000 



liNCLASSIFJED 



PAGE 62 



BY HR. FRYHAM: 
e ni. Hunt, i£ you would look at Exhibit 2-13 iot 
identification and tall ma ii you saw that telephone message 
or if you have seen it before. 

A ny lawyer tells me that this--I have never seen it 
before, that this actually cane from Tom Uhittaker's files. 
Whittaker works for us in the Dallas office and handles sort 
of the public relations . 

Apparently, somebody that was at the newspaper 
called him and I never really heard about it. It is the 
first time I have seen it. 

2 Do you Know who Judy Vance is? 

A I don't know. She might be a reporter from the 
Dallas Times Herald. 

8 Do you recall anyone mentioning to you a very 
sensitive matter that was related in any way to a call from 
Judy Vance? 

A No. No, I don't. 

MR. XRHIN: Let ma go off tha record just for a 
second . 

(Discussion off tha record.] 

HR. FRYMAN: i ask tha xapoxtaz to mark as Hunt 
Exhibit 2-1*1 for identification a telephone message which is 
identified as document HR-247. 

[Tha following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 



UNCLASSIFSED 



431 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAHE: HIR11U000 -—■»■■■ ■ ^ h/ p^^^ ^^ 



128U 
1285 
1286 



2-14 for identification:] 



txxxxxxxxx COMMITTEE INSERT xxxxxxxxx 



UNCLASSIFJED 



432 



NAME- 
1287 
1288 
1289 
1290 
1291 
1292 
1293 
12914 
1295 
1296 
1297 
1298 
1299 
1300 
1301 
1302 
1303 
130(4 
1305 
1306 
1307 
1308 
1309 
1310 
1311 



HIR1 1U000 



UNCl/ISSinEO 



1 



PAGE 614 



BY HR. FRYMAN: 

Q Mr. Hunt, I ask you to look at Exhibit 2-1'4 iox 
identification and tell ma if you have seen that document 
before ? 

A I don't recall whether I have seen it or not. It 
was a phone call message. That is the way my phone calls 
are marked, and I average about 25 a day. 

Frankly, I don't have time to return a third of 
them, and so the others sort of gat lost in the shuffle. I 
guess this is one that I didn't return. 

2 Do you recall any conversation with the person from 
the Dallas Morning News referred to on that message slip? 

A No, I didn't speak with her. 

2 Hho is Bert Hurlbert? 

A Bert Hurlbert is a fellow who lives in Austin, 
Texas who is a conservative. Apparently, he called. It 
might have been about the sane time, maybe about the same 
matter. I don't know. I didn't talk to him either at that 
time . 

S Itx. Hunt, I will not ask the reporter to mark as 
Exhibit 2-15 for identification the following pages from the 
documents that you produced: HIl-53, HR-S*!, HR-213, HR-21>4, 
HR-272, and HX-273. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
2-15 for identification:] 



UNCUSSIFJEO 



433 



UNCLASSIFIED 



NAME: HIRHUOOO ^^ ■ * Wbn V Wl I I C EJ PAGE 65 

1312 
1313 M»xx*x%MXM COnniTTEE INSERT xx***x««x 



liNCUSSIfSED 



434 



NAHE: 
131U 
1315 
1316 
1317 
1318 
1319 
1320 
1321 
1322 
1323 
13214 
1325 
1326 
1327 
1328 
1329 
1330 
1331 
1332 
1333 
133U 
1335 
1336 
1337 
1338 



HIR1 mooo 



UNCLASSIFIED 



PAGE 66 



MR. FRYHAN: Each of thase documents or each of 
these pagas is identified as reflecting contributions from 
the N.B. Hunt and Caroline L. Hunt federal income tax return 
schedule 35- 1 . 
— r^ BY HR. FRYHAH: 

e Hr. Hunt, I ask you to look at Exhibit 2-15 for 
identification and tell me if each of the amounts and dates 
reflected on those pages indicate contributions which you 
made to the organization indicated? 

A I don't see any dates on the contributions, when 
they were made. All I see is--oh, yes. It says for the year 
ending--year ending 1981, year ending 1982, year ending 1985, 
year ending 1986, ^')6H, 1987. I assume those dates are 
about — of the year the contributions were made are correct. 

C Is it your understanding that you made a 
contribution for each of the entries reflected on those 
sheets ? 

A I believe so. 

Here it shows — you have two dif f erent--one for the 
House of Reprasantatives Comitittaa and you have one for the 
District Court subpoena, David Zarnoff. I assume that is 
the ssusa contribution. That just answered the subpoena. 

The others don't seen to be duplicates. I assume 
maybe the first one is. 

S So pages HR-53 and HR-5t4 are duplicates of the same 



UNCLASSIFIED 



435 



NAME: 

1339 
1340 

13141 

1342 
1343 
1344 
1345 
1346 
1347 
1348 
1349 
1350 
1351 
1352 
1353 
1354 
1355 
1356 
1357 
1358 
1359 
1360 
1361 
1362 
1363 



HIR1 14000 



UNCLASSiFyED 



PAGE 67 



contribution for *85,000 is your understanding? 

A I would think so. X don't recall making that much 
of a contribution. 

2 Uho prepared these schedules? 

A They ware prepared in our office. X guess under the 
instructions of Halter Gross. 

Oo you know anything further? 

HR. IRWIN: No, I don't. I know the accounting 
people were called in. They probably did the schedules at 
Walter's request. 

BY MR. FRYHAN: 

2 I have not noted in the papers that you produced 
any similar schedules for the contributions to the National 
Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty that we have 
discussed, particularly the contribution of *237,S00 and the 
contribution of *237,000. 

Do you know how those contributions were handled on 
your tax returns? 

A No, I don't. I didn't give them any instructions 
on those, and so I don't know how they were handled. 
Unfortunately, I don't need the deductions, so--I need some 
of the opposite of deductions. I guess it was of no 
importance to me. 

8 The contribution for 4237,500 which you made to Hr . 
Channell's organization In September of 1985, was that the 



UNCLASSIFIED 



436 



^ficmsma 



MAHE: HIRimOOO — '^^H lkV PAGE 68 



1364 
1365 
1366 
1367 



largest charitabla contribution you mada in 1985? 

A It was tha largast contribution I mada. I don't 
know uhathar wa claimad it as a charitable contribution or 
not . 



^fioussmiQ 



437 



KAnc 

1368 
1369 
1370 
1371 
1372 
1373 
1374 
137S 
1376 
1377 
1378 
1379 
1380 
1381 
1382 
1383 
13814 
1385 
1386 
1387 
1388 
1389 
1390 
1391 
1392 



HXR1 mOOO 



UNCLASSiFSED 



PAGC 69 



RPTS DIHKEL 
DCHN DANIELS 

C Ko, I wasn't ask the tax treatment. 

A Yes. 

e Has that the largest contribution you made in 1985 
or the largest donation you made to anything? 

A To anything? 

e To anything, yes. 

A I don't know. I really--as I sit here, I am not 
sure. It may have been, but it nay not have been. 

2 Were there any other donations as large or larger 
that were made to any political organizations in 1985? 

A No , I don't know of any. 

e And by political organization. I mean any 
organization that would be involved in any way in policy 
matters or activities in Central America. I would include 
that type of organization. 

A I don't believe so. No. I don't believe I made 
any sizable contributions oi that type. 

HR. fRYHAN: I have no further questions. 
Hr . HcGough of the Senate may have a few questions. 
HR. HcGOUGH: I probably have just 15 minutes. Do 
you want to take a brief break and maybe make a brief call 
over there? 

MR. IRHIK: Utt can do without lunch. I think we 



UNCLASSiFES 



438 



NAHE: 
1393 
139H 
1395 
1396 
1397 
1398 
1399 

moo 

140 1 
1402 
1403 
1404 
1405 
1406 
1407 
1408 
1409 
1410 
1411 
1412 
1413 
1414 
1415 
1416 
1417 



HIR1 14000 



would rather just go. 



WlASSIREO 



PAGE 70 



HR. HcGOUGH: If you want to go? 

riR. IRWIN: Can we take a five-minute break? 

[ Brief recess. ] 

CXAniNATION ON BEHALF OF THE SENATE SELECT 

COMHITTEE 

BY HR. HcGOUGH: 
2 For the record, Kr . Hunt, I am Tom HcGough. I am 
Associate Counsel for the Senate Select Committee. A copy 
of our subpoena was forwarded to Mr. Roach, your counsel, 
who forwarded it, I suppose, to Rr . Irwin this morning, the 
records in response to that subpoena. I appreciate that. 

Ky questions to you will be a little bit more 
scatter-gun, I think, than Hr . Fryman's. Host of them are 
in the way of follow-up sorts of questions. Excuse rae for a 
little bit of a lack of organization. 

In regard to the Channell organization, did you 
or--did you or any member of your family or business 
organization ever receive funds for transmittal to a 
Channell organization; that is, did you ever act as an 
intermediary for any funds? 
A No. 

fi As far as the Channell organization goes, you 
mentioned that--I think it is fair to say your principal 
contact was with Mr. Channell? 



UNCLASSJFjED 



439 



NAME : 
1418 

im9 

1U20 
1142 1 
11422 
1423 
1142(4 
1425 
11426 
1427 
1(428 
11429 
1430 
1431 
1432 
1433 
1434 
1435 
1436 
1437 
1438 
1439 
1440 
1441 
1442 



HIR1 14000 



^ficmsiFm 



PAGE 71 



That is right. 



2 To your recollection, did you have any other 
contact with anybody else at the organization, a Mr.--I can 
give you some names ^ a Cliff Smith? 

A X have met on'e or tuo--at least one other fellou, a 
younger fellow, and it may have been Cliff Smith. I am not 
positive about the name. 

2 Did you have any dealings, any significant dealings 
with anyone other than Mr. Channell? 

A No, I didn't. 

2 Did you ever meet anyone from an organization 
called International Business Communications, IBC, as 
opposed to IBM? 



I don't believe so. 

A Richard Hiller, do you recall him? 

I don't recall meeting him. 

A Frank or Francis Gomez? 

I don't place those names. 

David F iahat ? 

David FiahT ? Is h« with the same organization? 



Sana organization. 

I never heard the name of that organization, but 
the name David Fisher is not--I may have heard that name 
before, but I don't know just where. 

2 Prior to your meeting with President Reagan, did 



UNClASSIFe 



440 



NAME: 
1443 
1444 
1445 
1446 
1447 
1448 
1449 
1450 
1451 
1452 
1453 
1454 
1455 
1456 
1457 
1458 
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1460 
1461 
1462 
1463 
1464 
1465 
1466 
1467 



UNCUSSIfJED 



HiRn4000 WllULM.A:Xiai[JULl page 72 
anyone discuss with you protocol or the way in which the 
meeting with President Reagan would proceed? 

A Uell. the iellow that took me in there/ and his 
name might have been Fisher, now that you mentioned it. 
That name is faintly iamiliar. naybe that is where it comes 
from. Is he from California originally? 

2 I am not sure I know the answer to that. 

A Anyway, he said just--President Reagan is very easy 
to talk to. Just talk to him about anything you want to. 

S Did he tell you to specifically talk to him about 
any subjects or not to talk to hin about any subjects? 

A No, he didn't — 

2 At any time before your meeting with President 
Reagan, did anyone instruct you not to discuss anything with 
him? 

A X don't recall anyone saying--making any suggestions 
at all along those lines. Might have, but if they did, it 
was very subtle, passed over my head. 

2 I believe--has anyone every mentioned to you in 
connection with the Channall organization something called 
the Toys project or the Toys account? 

A Toys, T-o-y-s? 

S T-o-y-s. 

A Never heard of that. 

2 Has anyone ever discussed with you — again in 



UNClflSSIFJED 



441 



NAME: 
1468 
11469 
1470 
m71 
1472 
11473 
1147U 
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11476 
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UNCIASSIRED 



HIR114000 Ulll.l tlXVILni.r] PAGE 73 
connection with the Channell organization raising money for 
Toys for the children of the Freedom Fighters? 
A No. I haven't heard of that. 

2 The «237,S00 loan that you made to NEPL, if I can 
recall it, NEPL, was that check--that check uas made at the 
same time or approximately the same time as a check that 
made--of a similar amount that uas a contribution; is that 
right? 

A That is my recollection, yes. 
Q Do you recall discussing--do you recall any 
documentation of the loan, that is a note or anything of the 
sort that would have represented that loan? 

A Seemed like there uas a note. How about that? 
MR. IRHIH: Off the record for a second. 
[Discussion off the record. 1 

HR. ncGOUGH: Let's mark this as Hunt Deposition 
Exhibit 3-A and B. 

[The following documents were marked as Hunt 
Deposition Exhibit Kos . 3-A and 3-B, respectively, for 
identification: I 

xxxxxxxxxx COnniTTEE INSERT **»»»»»»» 



mimmEQ 



442 



UNCLASSIFIED 



HAnz- HiRimooo Ulltf LHiJiJlr bCiJ ^^^^ "^^ 



1490 

1492 
1493 
1494 



HR. ncGOUGH: Let's also mark 3-C. 

I The following document was marked as Hunt Exhibit 
No. 3-C for identification:] 

***)tcx**a<xx COnniTTEE INSERT ********* 



i 



UNCLASSIFSED 



443 



HAKE: 
m95 
m96 
11497 
1U98 
1499 
ISOO 
1501 
1502 
1503 
15014 
1505 
1506 
1507 
1508 
1509 
1510 
1511 
1512 
1513 
151U 
1515 
1516 
1517 
1518 
1519 



HIR1 1U000 



UNCLASSiFSED 



PAGE 75 



BY HR. HcGOUGH: 
fi Lat ma show you, Mt . Hunt, what hava baan iii||i:ked as 
Exhibits 3-B and C for tha lacord. 3-A and 3-C ata pieces 
of corraspondanca on tha letterhead of Shank, Irwin C Conant 
dated Septenber 18, 1985; and 3-B is an unsecured note dated 
September 17, 1985, nada out in tha name of National 
Endowment for tha Preservation of Liberty. 

If you would take a look at those, perhaps we can 
get a stipulation those ware provided pursuant to our 
subpoena to the law firm. 

HR. IRWIH: Yes. 

For tha record, lat ma say that Hr . Hunt wants to 
cooperate in every way and is not assarting any kind oi 
attornay-eliant privilege or any other privilege that might 
be applicable to any of this information. 

But that is with tha understanding he is not just 
generally waiving tha attorney-client privilege in every 
litigation he is a party to. He don't want to get into that 
can of fish. 

As fax as tha stipulation is concerned, yes. I will 
stipulate thasa are accurate copies of tha documents 
produced out of Hr . Shank's files at Shank, Irwin £ Conant. 

BY HR. ncGOUGH: 
e Hill you take a look at those thraa exhibits, 
please . 



UNCLASSIFE3 



444 



NAME: 

1520 
1521 
1522 
1523 
152i< 
1525 
1526 
1527 
1528 
1529 
1530 
1531 
1532 
1533 
15314 
1535 
1536 
1537 
1538 
1539 
15>40 

ism 

15U2 
15143 
154^ 



HIR1 mooo 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



PAGE 76 



I balieve one of them purports to bear our 
signature. I believe that is 3-A, which has a line for your 
signature . 

Is that right? 

A That is right. 

2 Is that, in fact, your signature? 

A Yes, it is. 

2 3-B and 3-C don't really bear any signatures on 
them. My question is going to be have you ever seen any of 
the--you signed 3-A? You must have seen that. 

A Yes. 

S Have you ever seen 3-B and 3-C before? 

A I don't believe so. 

2 Mere you aware that the loan that you were making 
to the Hational Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty 
was to bear interest? 

A I don't recall whether that was discussed or not. 
I think it probably was. 

2 When you say was — 

A That it was to bear interest. I think I told 
Channell the note would bear interest. 

2 I believe 3-B and 3-C both reflect there is. in 
fact, an interest rate associated with the loan; is that 
right? 

A Yes. They both nention ^-^/2 percent. 



unclassif:e3 



445 



NAHE: 

1545 
15U6 
1SU7 
ISUS 
ISI49 
1SS0 
1551 
1552 
1553 
155U 
1555 
1556 
1557 
1558 
1559 
1560 
1561 
1562 
1563 
156<4 
1565 
1566 
1567 
1568 
1569 



HIR1 1U000 



UNCLASSIF3ED 



PAGE 77 



Q When tha loan was ultimately rspaid, uas it repaid 
with interest? 

A I don't know. 

2 Can we agree that the check-- 

MR. IRUIK: Let ne cut through this and tell you 
for the record our files do not reflect any interest was 
paid . 

HR. HcGOUGH: There was a check narked as one of 
the exhibits. It was the check made out to you from Shank, 
Irwin £ Conant, HR-56. The amount was «237,000. I think 
that was repayment of the loan. 

Is that your recollection? 
THE WITNESS: yes, sir. 
BY MR. ncGOUGR: 
Q Would it be safe to assume when the loan was 
repaid, there was not any interest paid on the loan? 
A I assume that is correct. 

Q Do you recall receiving separate payments from NEPL 
to Shank, Irwin C Conant that might have been on interest? 
A I don't recall receiving any. 

Q Let ma ask you a couple of questions about how 
these check requests ara prepared in your office, if I 
could, Mr. Hunt. 

Let me pull one out as an example. I am not going 
to mark this as an exhibit, but just so you have something 



UNCLASSIF'ED 



446 



MAHE- 
1570 

157 1 
1572 
1573 
1574 
1575 
1576 
1577 
1578 
1579 
1580 

158 1 
1582 
1583 
158U 
1585 
1586 
1587 
1588 
1589 
1590 
1591 
1592 
1593 
1594 



UNClASSIFffEO 



HiRii^ooo ^"^ VLflOaSSiT Ht* ^9 ^^''^ "^^ 

to refer to. It is one of the ones you produced for Western 
Goals . 

Hho is responsible ior preparing the request for 
check? 

A Well, usually it is my secretary. I think that may 
be my signature down there. I an not sure. Looks like it 
anyuay, a little bit. 

2 Let's talk in specific regards to contributions. 
Uhat--how uould a contribution or a request ior a check for a 
contribution be generated? What is the usual mechanism to 
go from your decision to make the contribution to 
something--to the request for check? 

A They uould go from me to probably my secretary and 
she uould prepare the check request and X uould sign it. 

8 Would you give your secretary some explanation of 
the reason for the check request? 

A X might. I usually uould. 

S Than it would be prepared up for your--for someone's 
signature; is that right? 

A Yes. usually. Usually my signature. 

fi Whan you sign off on these requests, is one of the 
things that you look at the — do you determine whether or not 
the explanation is accurate, whether the check is accurately 
reflected on the request? 

A When you say an explanation, you mean like — 



UNCLASSIFIED 



447 



NAME ■■ 
1595 
1596 
1597 
1598 
1599 
1600 
160 1 
1602 
1603 
1604 
1605 
1606 
1607 
1608 
1609 
1610 
16 11 
1612 
16 13 

16114 

1615 
1616 
1617 
1618 
1619 



HTRl 14000 



B^^i^ssiFm 



PAGE 79 



A I thin)<--this looks like it might have been a 
contribution, but I can't say. It is so bad. 
2 Let's get a better copy here. 

At any rate, there is a space on the check request 
for explanation of why? 
A Yes. 

2 Would it be your custom to make sure that there uas 
some explanation on that portion of the check request? 
A Usually , yes . 

B And that would ba for the benefit of the accounting 
department so they would have something for their records? 
A I would say so, yes. 

2 Can w« agree that that would be particularly 
significant in regard to large checks so that the account 
department would have some indication? 
A Well, possibly, yes. 

HR. HcGOUGH: Let's mark as Exhibit 4-A and 4-B, HR- 
40 and HR-39 . 

Have they been marked? I don't think so. 
Oh, they have been marked. 

Let's just look at what have been marked as 
Exhibits 2-9 and 2-10 which I think have been previously 
identified as the check requests — or the check requests and 
the check for the «10,000 contribution to HEPL in 1985. 



UNCLI\SSlF^t3 



448 



NAME: 
1620 
1621 
1622 
1623 
1624 
1625 
1626 
1627 
1628 
1629 
1630 
1631 
1632 
1633 
163t( 
1635 
1636 
1637 
1638 
1639 
16U0 
16i»1 
1642 
16143 
16(41* 



HIR1 14000 



0NCLASSIF3ED 



PAGE 80 



Is that right? 



THE WITNESS: It appears to be, yes. 
BY MR. HcGOUGH: 

S On that explanation on the voucher portion of 
check, it reads contribution, does it not? 

A That is correct. 

2 That is what it was? It was a contribution? 

A Yes. 

2 Let's take a iook at HR-36 and HR-37; HR-U6 and HR- 
47. I an just trying to compare them, if I can. 
Particularly you are going to be interested at this point in 
the requests for checks as opposed to the checks themselves. 
They have been identified as Exhibits 2-1 and 2-2, 2-3 and 2- 
4, and Exhibits 2-5 and 2-6. 

There may be a duplicate here. I think, as a 
matter of fact, one of these--2-3 and 2-4 may be duplicate 
copies of 2-1 and 2-2. 

2 But be that as it may, can we agree there is no 
explanation on any of those check requests? 

A That is correct. 

2 Is that — for a check of the magnitude of 4237,000. 
would you find that surprising? 

A Hell, it was not a business matter. I wasn't 
paying the Shank, Irwin firm a legal fee. There was no 
reason for that. So I didn't put that on it. It wasn't a 



'"leiASSlFiiB 



449 



NAME: 

16U5 

16^6 

16H7 
1648 
16>49 
1650 
1651 
1652 
1653 
165(4 
1655 
1656 
1657 
1658 
1659 
1660 
1661 
1662 
1663 
1661 
1665 
1666 
1667 
1668 
1669 



t'tl 



HIRIIUOOO lirai.l U '^^Dlf- Ufr* Ihf PAGE 81 
contribution to Shank, Irwin. We just left it blank. 
Probably should have had something on it. 

2 Let's take a look at 2-7 and 2-8 which are check 
requests for the March 1U contribution. 

A Yes. 

2 Ue can agree there is no indication on there as to 
the purpose of the check? 

A That is right. As far as I know, there is no lau 
requiring that you put a purpose on there. 

2 I understand that. 

rrom where would these requests for checks go? X 
mean from your desk, where would they go, is, I guess, what 
I an trying to ask? 

A They would go to the cashier's office that prepares 
checks . 

2 And in the case of the checks actually being 
prepared, there is a stub there, is there not, where the 
amount of the check and the invoice number and that sort of 
thing is normally typed on in the cashier's office; is that 
right? 

A I don't know. I don't know whether there is a stub 
at all on the check. 

S Let's look at a «10,000 check which is 2-9. That 
has got ''contribution, »10,000, on it; does it not? 

A yes. 



liNCLASSfFSED 



^0 



NAME 
1670 
1671 
1672 
1673 
16714 
1675 
1676 
1677 
1678 
1679 
1680 
1681 
1682 
1683 
16814 
1685 
1686 
1687 
1688 
1689 
1690 
1691 
1692 
1693 
169(4 



UNCLASSfRED 



HiRimooo ^•'■w^^fcn^y^^ii ulej page 82 

2 Would anyon* have called you from the accounting 
office to ask you what the checks were for? Do you recall 
getting any kind of questions as to what S237,000 checks 
were for? 

A No. These were my own personal funds. They 
weren't business funds. 

2 Was the *10,000 check also from your own personal 
funds ? 

A Yes. 

2 And one of the reasons you would have put the 
*10,000--on the «10,000, correct the word 
*' contribution' ' --was so that at a later time your 
accountants would know to detect that amount; is that not 
right? 

A Well, perhaps yes. I guess that would be correct. 

2 And, in fact, I think according to the records that 
have been produced, that amount was, in fact, detected as a 
tax matter; was it not? 

A Well, it may have been. Frankly, a deduction 
doesn't do me any good. My tax losses are tremendous. So a 
deduction, I don't — it is really academic. 

2 One of the checks that has no purpose on it was, in 
fact, a loan; is that right? 

A That is correct. 

2 Has anyone within your organization, as opposed to 



I 



UNCLASSIFIED 



451 



NAHE: 
1695 
1696 

1697 
1698 
1699 
1700 
170 1 
1702 
1703 
1704 
1705 
1706 
1707 
1708 
1709 
1710 
17 11 
1712 
1713 
1714 
17 15 
1716 
1717 
17 18 
1719 



HIR1 14000 



liNCLASSfFs"£0 



PAGE 83 



the people at ShanK, Iruin £ Conant, notified that you were 
making a loan to KEPL? 

A I don't recall notifying there about it. 

2 Was there anything about the »237,000 contribution 
that led you to believe it wouldn't be tax deductible? 

A No. 

2 Has there anything about the 4237,000 
contribution--and I guess there are two of them--that made you 
reluctant to reveal those contributions to the IRS? 

A No. Like I said. I probably have a tax loss--I hate 
to think how much it is. You know, a charitable 
contribution, you can deduct 5 percent, a fairly small 
percentage. It just wasn't worth--then you are going to get 
publicity on the contribution, which I didn't want. So it 
wasn't worth it. I couldn't use the deduction and why do it 
in such a fashion that you are going to get a lot of 
publicity about it? 

2 Were there any other contributions that you made in 
1985 and 1986 that you recall--where you recall leaving the 
explanation part on the check request blank? 

A Ho, I don't recall any others. 

2 Do you recall anyone, your secretary, or anyone in 
your organization, asking you what the purpose of those 
checks were to fill in at some point as a bookkeeping matter 
or out of curiosity? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



452 



^Ncussm 



NAME: HIRIIUOOO «'■ W l/L« A-\ fl fc UL ^^AGE 8U 



1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 
1724 
1725 
1726 
1727 
1728 
1729 



A I don't recall. They may have. I would have said 
it is a personal natter, just an advance. 

S To your knowledge, did you ever receive a signed 
note back from NEPL, what we introduced here is a copy of an 
unsigned note? 

A I don't know. I don't know whether we received a 
signed note or an unsigned note. 

2 Did you ask for any security or collateral on the 
loan? 

A Ko, I didn't. 



liNClflSSIfS? 



1 



453 



NAME ■■ 
1730 
1731 
1732 
1733 
173U 
1735 
1736 
1737 
1738 
1739 
1740 
1741 
1742 



"""""" UNCLASSIFIEO "" " 

RPTS DOTSON ^ " ■ '^ >*• ■^>* ** a S J ifc k.7 

DCnN DANIELS 

BY HR. McGOUGH: 
2 I believe you already said you don't lecall making 
contributions through your law iirm or another law firm at 
any other time; is that right? 
A No, I don't. 

MR. ncGOUGH: Let me have this marked. This is HR- 
95. Let me have it marked as whatever the next exhibit is. 

[The following document was marked as Hunt 
Exhibit No. 4 for identification: I 

xxxxxx**** COHHITTEE INSERT xxxxxxxxx 



UNCLASSI 



If^ty 



454 



NAHE 
1743 
17U4 
17US 
1746 
1747 
1748 
1749 
1750 
1751 
1752 
1753 
1754 
1755 
1756 
1757 
1758 
1759 
1760 
176 1 
1762 
1763 
1764 
1765 
1766 
1767 



HIR1 14000 



ONCLASSIFS 



PAGE 86 



MR. HcGOUGH: For the record. Exhibit 4 is the 
deponent's No. HR-95 and it appears to be a phone message 
dated April 2, 19--at the top, I think it says 1987. 
BY MR. HcGOUGH: 

2 Do you recall receiving that, Mr. Hunt? 

A No, I don't recall seeing this. 

2 Could you just read what the phone message says? 

A It is to me irom Spitz Channell, but I didn't write 
this. I assume my secretary did. It says, ''All 
contributors have been contacted reference Colonel 
North' '--it was written April 2, 1987--' 'All contributors have 
been contacted with reference to Colonel North to basically 
find out what was said. Over.*' 

1 don't really know what they are talking about. 

2 Other than the one telephone conversation you 
discussed with Hr . Fryman, do you recall any other 
coramunications--and anything that night be represented by 
that phone messaga--do you recall any other communications to 
or from Mz . Channell oz any of his representatives? 

A No. The only time I recall talking to Channell was 
when I called him about the FBI man, Brian Oelaney, an Irish 
boy out of this office, I believe here, and I just called 
him to ask hin who this guy was and what he had in his mind. 

He said, ''I know hin very well. He spent a couple months 
with us . ' ' 



UNCLASSfFIEB 



455 



KAME: 
1768 
1769 
1770 
177 1 
1772 
1773 
177M 
177S 
1776 
1777 
1778 
1779 
1780 
1781 
1782 
1783 
1781* 
178S 
1786 
1787 
1788 
1789 
1790 
1791 
1792 



HIR1 14000 



UNCLftSS!F'.E9 



PAGE 87 



He said, ''He is a nice fellow. Tell him whatever you 
know. ' ' 

2 When was the first time you knew that Ellen Garwood 
had made contributions to NEPL? 

A Really, I didn't. I said I knew she had. I saw 
her at one of her dinners and then I heard that she gave a 
helicopter or something, maybe I read that in the newspaper, 
to the Freedom Fighters, and then I heard that--then I read 
it in the paper the other day that she had been a sizable 
contributor to the Freedom Fighters Fund. 

Z Have you ever spoken to Mrs. Garwood about Channell 
or the Channell organization? 

A Ho, I haven't. 

2 Have you seen Mrs. Gardwood since the story; let's 
say, since January of this year? 

A No, I don't believe X have. I don't recall. I 
haven't seen her in the last year, year and a half, and I 
think this was more recent than that that it was in the 
paper. 

e Do you know Patricia Back? 

A FKom Dallas? 

2 Yes, fxoB Dallas. 

k Yes, I know her. 

e Have you ever discussed the Channell organization 
with Hrs. Back? 



^NCUssiF, 



lEB 



456 



NAME: HIRIIUOOO 
1793 



1794 
1795 
1796 
1797 




«.^ PAGE 88 
A If she is the one I am 'Wuinking of, she was the 
wife of Henry Beck. They are divorced now. If that is the 
woman you are asking about. 

HR. McGOUGH: That is all I have. 
[Whereupon, at 12=40 p.m.> the deposition concluded.) 



UNCLASSIFIED 



457 






Subpena (Depotibon) 



Pp ^urtjoritp of tf)e ^ouge of Eepres^cntatibeg of tl)c 
Congress of tf)E ?Hniteb States of iSmerica 



j-j, Nelson Bunker Hunt 

You are hereby commanded to be and appear before the ..?.^A.?.9.^. Committee ocbc ^° 

^ny^.^.'^A.?.?.^-f---9-9.y-?J-?:..^i^?.?..JJ-?.?.?.?.?.?:A°J}.^..)?'A^.^3f the House of Representatives of 
- irari 

the United States, of which the Hon. ...J;??..«:..«f.'niilO'}. i» chairman, in 

Room ...KtAI?. of the .?.?.PAt?.l Building in the 

city of Washington, on .April. .2.4 .'..i.?.?.7. at the hour of ...^.iP.P.. .?.:.!?!- 

then and there to produce the things identified on the attached schedule and to testify on deposition 
touching matters of inquiry committed to said G)mmittee; and you are not to depart without leave 

of said Gjmmittee. 

j-Q anjj Select Committee staf^^^ 

to serve and make return. 

Witness my hand and the seal of the House of Representatives 
of the United Sutes. at the city of Washington, this 
.l.B.th .. day <i^^ .Ap.r.i.l 19.8.?. 




(fr<i-jL. 



Chairman. 




Attest: . 

5Y: W. Raym^d Colley-, Deputy xfler 



e> 



458 



SCHEDULE -- Nelson Bunker Hunt 

1. The respondent to this subpoena shall produce all materials 
pertaining, referring, or relating in any way whatever to: 

a. Carl R. Channell and/or any entity with which Carl R. 
Channell is or was associated, including, but not limited to 
(i) National Endowment for the Preservation of Liberty, ( ii) 
Channell Corporation, (iii) Sentinel, (iv) American 
Conservative Trust, (v) American Conservative Foundation, 
(vi) Grow Washington, (vii) Hill-Potomac Group, (viii) 
Western Goals Endowment Fund, (ix) Western Goals Foundation, 
(x) Anti-Terrorism American Committee, and (xi) American 
Conservative Trust State Election Account; 

b. Richard R. Miller and/or any entity with which Richard 
R. Miller is or was associated, including, but not limited 
to (i) International Business Communications, Inc., (ii) 
Institute for North-South Issues, (iii) I. C, Inc., 

(iv) Intel Co-Operation, Inc., and (v) World Affairs 
Counselors, Inc. 

c. Dan H. Kuy)tendall and/or any entity with which Dan H. '. 
Kuy)(endall is or was associated, including, but not limited 
to, the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation; 

d. Robert Owen and/or any entity with which Robert Owen is 
or was associated, including, but not limited to (i) 
Institute for Democracy, Education, and Assistance, (ii) 
Council for Democracy, Education, and Assistance, and (iii) 
Institute on Terrorism and Subnational Conflict; 

e. the involvement of Oliver L. North, Carl R. Channell, 
Richard R. Miller, Dan H. Kuylcendall, or Robert Owen in 
political advocacy or campaigns or efforts to influence 
public opinion or legislation relating to anti-government 
forces in Nicaragua commonly Icnown as the Contras; 

f. the use of any funds that were at any time under the 
control of Oliver L. North, Carl R. Channell, Richard R. 
Miller, Dan H. Kuykendall, or Robert Owen in political 
advocacy or campaigns or efforts to influence public opinion 
or legislation relating to anti -government forces in 
Nicaragua commonly Icnown as the Contras ; 

g. Toyco S.A., a monetary account referred to as "Toys", 
or any other account or entity with the word "Toy" in the 
name; 

h. communications between Carl R. Channell, Richard R. 
Miller, Dan H. Kuy)cendall, or Robert Owen and White House 
personnel, or between any of those individuals and any third 
party relating to white House personnel, including, but not 



459 



- 2 - 

limited to, any cominunications with or relating to Oliver 1. 
North or President Ronald Reagan. 

i. any contract, agreement, or consultant arrangement 
involving, or any compensation from, any department, 
division, or agency of the United States government, any 
State or political subdivision thereof, or any foreign 
government or political subdivision thereof, whether 
executed or not; 

j. any transaction with any bank or financial entity in 
Switzerland, Panama, Bermuda, or the Cayman Islands; 

k. (i) any arms transaction directly or indirectly through 
any third party with Iran, Israel, Manucher Ghorbanifar, 
Albert Hakim, Adnan Khashoggi, Yaacov Nimrodi, Amiram Nir, 
Adolph (Al) Schwimmer, Richard Secord, or John Singlaub; 
(ii) any arms transaction directly or through any third 
party, with Lake Resources, Inc., or any company or entity 
owned by, controlled by, or affiliated with, the previously 
named persons or company; .(iii) any arras transaction 
directly or indirectly through any third party with anti- 
government forces in Nicaragua commonly known as the Contras 
or any other person or entity in Nicaragua; and/or (iv) any 
transaction to or from any person or entity of TOW missiles. 
Hawk antiaircraft missiles or parts, or F-14 aircraft parts; 

1. any American citizen held hostage; 

m. the anti-government forces in Nicaragua commonly known 
as the Contras, including, but not limited to, the provision 
of financial, military, or other assistance or support of 
any kind to, or for the benefit of, such forces, or any 
person or entity now or formerly associated with such 
forces, whether in Nicaragua or elsewhere; 

n. for Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, Costa Rica, Denmark, 
El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Hong Kong, Iran, Israel, 
Liberia, Lichtenstein, Nicaragua, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, 
and Switzerland, (i) any correspondence, telex, or other 
oral or .written communication to or from any person or 
entity located in these countries, or (ii) any statement, 
check, deposit slip, or other material relating to any bank 
or financial institution account in located in these 
countries; or 

o. any tax record of any kind, including, but not limited 
to, any federal, state, and local filing, accompanying 
schedules, supporting doucments, and work papers relating to 
such record; 



460 



- 3 - 

p. any communication service, including, but not limited 
to, local and long distance telephone service, mobile 
telephone service, paper, telex, telecopy, and expedited 
mail service; or 

q. any person or entity listed in Appendix A hereto. 

2. The term "materials" as used in this subpoena includes 
any book, note, record, check, cancelled check, bank statement, 
correspondence, memorandum, paper, calendar, or any other 
document, recording, or data compilation from which information 
can be obtained, which are owned by you or which are in any way 
subject to your possession, custody, or control or that of any 
agent of yours. 

3. If your or your counsel have any questions regarding 
this subpoena, please contact Thomas Fryman at (202) 225-7902. 



461 



APPENDIX A 



Any of the following persons: 

Be rmude z , Enr ique 
Calero, Adolfo 
Calero, Mario 
Cameron, Bruce 
Conrad, Daniel L. 
Chamorro, Pedro 
Cooper, William J. 
Clines, Thomas 
Cruz, Arturo 
Cruz, Arturo, Jr. 
de Senarclens, Jean 
Dutton, Robert 
Fischer, David 
Furmark, Roy 
Gadd, Richard 
Garnel, Jose 
Ghorbanifar, Manucher 
Gomez, Francis 
Haicim, Albert 
Hashemi, Cyrus 
Hull, John 
Kashoggi , Adnan 
Kimche, David 
Ledeen, Michael 
Lilac, Robert 



Lilac, Robert 

McMahon, Steve 

McFarlane, Robert 

F. Andy Messing, Jr. 

Montes, Oscar 

Nimrodi, Yaacov 

Nir, Amiram 

North, Oliver L. 

Poindexter, John 

Quintero, Rafael 

Robelo, Alfonso 

Robles, Rodolfo 

Rodriquez, Felix aka Max Gomez 

Rose, Jose Bueso 

Sacasa, Marrio 

Sanchez, Aristides 

Schwimmer, Adolph (Al) 

Secord, Richard v. 

Shackley, Theodore 

Singlaub, John L. 

Soghanalian, Sarkis 

Sommeriba , Leonardo 

Wilson, Edwin 

von Marbod, Erich. 

Zucker, Willard I. 



Any person employed by, acting as an agent for, or 
representing: 

U. S. Air Force 

Military Airlift Command 

Central Intelligence Agency 

National Security Council 

President's Intelligence Oversight Board 

Federal Aviation Administration 

Geneva Commercial Registry 

Military Reutilization and Material Supply Department, 
- Portugal 

National Armaments Directorate, Portugal 

Nugen-Hand Bank, Australia 

Overseas Defense Corp. 

Department of Defense 

Lloyd's of London 

any agency, division, or department of the United States 
government with responsibility for foreign relations, 
for intelligence activities, or for manufacturing, 
storing, shipping, selling, transferring, monitoring, 
or accounting for any arms, munitions, or military 
personnel 

any agency, division, or department of the government of. 



462 



any instrumentality of, or any national of, or person 
located in Iran, Israel, Switzerland, Panama, Bermuda, 
Liberia, Lichtenstem, the Cayman Islands, Portugal, 
Denmark, Saudi Arabia, El Salvador, Costa Rica, 
Nicaragua, Honduras, or Guatemala 

3. Any of the following entities, or any entity whose name is 
as listed, but followed by Inc., Corp., Corporation, led., 
Co., Company, or SA. , doing business in any location 
whatever: 

ACE 

Airmach, Inc. 

Albon Values 

Alpha Serivces, S.A. 

Amalgamated Commercial Enterprises, Inc. 

American Marketing and Consulting, Inc. 

American National Management Corporation 

Baggett Transportation Company 

CSF 

CSF Investments Ltd. 

CSFR Inv. Ltd. 

Chester Co. 

Compagnie de Services Fiduciares SA 

Corporate Air Services, Inc. 

Oataguard International 

Defex - Portugal 

Oolmy Business, Inc. 

EAST Inc. 

EATSCO 

Eagle Aviation Services and Transportation 

Egyptian American Transport Services, Inc. 

Energy Resources International 

Fifteenth of September League 

Gulf Marketing Consultants 

Hyde Park Holdings 

Hyde Park Square Corporation 

I. B. C. 

IDEA 

Intercontinental Technology 

International Research and Trade 

Risan 

Lake Resources Corp. 

Lake Resources, Inc. 

Lilac Associates 

Maule Air, Inc. 

Missurasata 

KRAF Inc. 

National Defense Council Foundation 

National Liberation Army 

N. S. I. 

Nicaraguan Democratic Force (FDN) 

Nicaraguan Democratic Union 

Nicaraguan Development Council 



463 



- 3 - 

Nicaraguan Freedom Fund, Inc. 

Nicaraguan Revolutionary Armed Forces (FARM) 

Project Democracy 

Queen Shipping 

R. M. Equipment Co. 

Revolutionary Democratic Alliance (ARDE) 

S & S Trading Corp. 

SOME Aviation 

Secord Associates 

Southern Air Transport, Inc. 

Southern Bloc Opposition (BOS) 

Stanford Technology, Inc. 

Stanford Technology Trading, Inc 

Stanford Technology Trading Associates, Inc, 

Systems Services International 

Trans world Arms Inc. 

Udall Corporation 

Udall Research Corporation 

Udall Resources, Inc., S.A. 

United Nicaraguan Opposition (UNO) 



465 







(465) 



466 



THE WHITE HOUSE 

WAS H I NCTON 



February 12, 1987 



Dear Mr. Runt: 

Thank you for your letter dated September 18, 1986, addressed to 
the President, describing the project to erect a memorial to 
Congressman Lawrence McDonald of Georgia in a prominent place inj 
Washington, D.C. 

While this effort is a noble one, we regret that the President 
will be unable personally to become involved in it. We wish you,! 
nonetheless, every success with thj^s endeavor. 

Sincerely, 



DERICK J.' RYAN, JR 



FREDERICK J.' RYAN, JR. 

Director of Presidential Appointments 

and Scheduling 
Director of Private Sector Initiatives 



•■■Releiised on_Ii^*fi8 
-"VK Johnsorv. National Secui.lyCouncH" 



Mr. N*Ison Bunker Hunt 
Thanksgiving Tower 
Dallas, Texas 75201 



/gWSSW 



467 



m-toC. 



UNCLASSIFIED 

THE WHITE HOUSE 

WASHINGTON 



October 10, 1985 






S^«c^^C*;^."^«-<r.-' 



f^^:;^^^^ 



Dear Mr. Channell: 

On August 30, I signed Executive Order 12530 
authorizing the provision of $27 million in 
humanitarian assistance to the freedom fighters 
in Nicaragua. This week the Nicaraguan Humani- jl> 
tarian Assistance Office (NHAO) commenced work on 9B( 
the distribution of food, clothing, and medical £^' 
supplies so desperately needed by the men and 3tr^ 
women who struggle for liberty in Nicaragua. ^^• 

Passage of the legislation, which made my J^^ 
Executive Order and the NHAO possible, was a ^^* 
significant victory for the cause of freedom in 
Central America. It would not have been achieved 
without the help of the American Conservative 
Trust and its supportei;s. Your organization's 
effort to go to the public via television in 
support of this program was a- significant factor 
in helping people to understand this issue. 



You and your organization have made a remarkable 
contribution to the course of democracy in 
Central America. Keep up the good work. 

Sincerely, 



% 



Released on I I f'^^& R 







flV mS ^ L 



by K Jotinson, National Secui.ty Council 



V^_j«^-^<»;«?^'J<*j 



Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

President 

The American Conservative Trust 

305 Fourth Street, N.E. 

Washington, D.C. 20002 




468 



UNCLASSIFIED 



riTK VNHITK HOl'.SF. 

June 25, 1985 



Dear Mr. Channell: 

Thank you for your letter concerning the 
American Conservative Trust and your 
television messages. 

It is indeed critical that the American 
people are informed About the current 
situation in Nicaragua. Thank you for the 
work you are doing in this regard. 

The President greatly appreciates your 
efforts in support of his policies. 

Sincerely, 



/y iA^ 



Edward J. Rollins 
Assistant to the President 
for Political and 
Governmental Affairs 



Mr. Carl Russell Channell 

President 

American Conservative Trust 

305 4th Street, N.E. 

Suite 210 

Washington, D.C. 20002 






UNCUSSIFIED 



469 



Stenographic Transcript of /S7 



HEARINGS 
Before the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



UNITED STATES SENATE 



DEPOSITION OF FRED C. IKLE 
Tuesday, July 21, 198? 



UNCLASSIFIED 



Partially C. 



jticil Washington. D.C. 

UHOERSSWII 



. '.\.-l 12356 
by N. Manan, L.jonal Security Council Washington. D.C. 



OR 



AC£=SCN-E-Cr"rC- 

(202) 523-9300 .^^ nO -^lA-Of- 

WASHINGTON, D. C. 200 OL 



471 



UNCt4^iFIED 



1 - DEPOSITIOM OF FRED C. IKLE 

2 Tuesday, July 21, 1987 

3 United States Senate 

4 Select Coaaittee on Secret 

5 Military Assistance to Iran 

6 and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

7 Washington, D. C. 

8 Deposition ot FRED C. IKLE, called as a 

9 witness by counsel for the Select Coomittee, in the 

10 offices of Dr. Ilcle, The Pentagon, Washington, D. C, 

11 commencing at 4:10 p.m., the witness having been duly 

12 sworn by MICHAL ANN SCHAFER, a Notary Public in and for 

13 the District of Columbia, and the testimony being taken 

14 down by Stenomaslc by MICHAL ANN SCEAFER and transcribed 

15 under her direction. 

(471) 



UN«SSlF[ED 



472 



UNGiftSSIFIED 



1 APPEARANCES : 

2 Oft behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret 

3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 

4 Opposition: 

5 JOHN SAXON, ESQ. 

6 On behalf of the House Select Committee to 

7 Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with Iran: 

8 ROBERT GENZMAN, ESQ. 

9 ROGER KREU2ER 

10 On behalf of the Department of Defense: 

11 EDWARD SHAPIRO, ESQ. 

12 Assistant General Counsel, Legal Counsel 



UNetft^lFSED 



473 



CNSIASSIFIED 



1 




CONTENTS 






2 




EXAMINATION 


ON. 


BEHALF OF 


3 


WITNES? 


.SENAT5 




HOUSE 


4 


Fred C. Ikle 








5 


By Mr* 


SaxQfE?? ^" * 






6 


^-.- 


< EXHIBITS 






7 


IKLE EXHIBIT 


mTMR^B -* -^OR IDENTIFICATION 


8 


1 


'^ " : ^" 






9 


2 








10 


3 


27 






11 


4 


33 






12 


5 


39 






13 


6 


42 







UNCLASSIFIED 



474 



UNeiASSiFJtO 



1 PROCEEDINGS __ f;.- 

2 Whereupon, -^I 

3 FRED C. IKLE, ~ ~^— — - 

4 called as^a witness by counsel on behalf of the Senate 

5 Select Committee and having been duly sworn by the Notary 

6 Public, was examined and testified as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION 

8 BY MR. SAXON: 

9 Q Would you state your name, please? 

10 A Fred Charles Ikle. 

11 Q Dr. Ikle, what is your current position? 

12 A Under Secretary of Defense for Policy. 

13 Q And I believe you've been in that position 

14 since April 1981; is that correct? 

15 A Correct. 

16 Q And could you briefly tell us what your duties 

17 are in that position? 

18 A To advise the Secretary of Defense on policy 

19 issues, military strategy, to coordinate for him the work 

20 done by the elements in the policy cluster — ISA, iSP, 

21 the Deputy Under Secretaries. 

22 Q ISA is International Security Affairs; ISP is 

23 International Security Policy? 

24 A Right. 

25 Q We have to say these things on the record for 



UNCt^SIFIED 



475 



UN04ASSIF!ED 



1 subsequent rsadsrs, so that whlls you and Z and avsryon* 

2 sis* arotind tha taJsla nay Xnov what you scan, w« n««d to 

3 spall that out soaatinas. 

4 And do you also hava, or I assuaa you still do 

5 — I think you at ona point had tarrorisa policy and 

6 countartarrorisa policy undar you; is that correct? 

7 A Tarrorisa and countartarrorisa as far as the 

8 OSD role is concerned, as distinct froa th« role of other 

9 eleaents in the Departaent, are still part of the policy 

10 cluster. 

11 Q And a a I correct in sayi ng that you have the 
Oepartaent-vid^^^^^^^^^^^Vunder you 

13 your indirect responsibilitie s? 

The so-called^^^^^^^^^^^^Bfor 

15 link with the Central Intelligence Agency is in the 

16 policy cluster as well. 

17 Q And let ae say for the record froa the outset 

18 if I make reference to something you have told us 

19 previously I don't aean necessarily in this deposition, 

2 unless I say that. For the record, you were kind enough, 

21 on April 27 of this year, to meet with Mr. Kreuzer and 

22 Joe Saba of the House staff and myself, so if I say "as 
2 3 you told us previously" or "as you told us in April", 

2 4 that's what I have in aind. ^^^^^^ 

25 Let me start by asking you about the^^^^BH 



476 



^NOASSIFIED 



1 ^^^^^^^^^^Lnd hav« you just state generlcally what It 

2 is and why It exists and what It's supposed to do and 

3 govern. 

4 A This system or eluster of people, who are 

5 reporting to me through the Deputy Under Secretary, the 

6 principal Deputy Under Secretary, serves follow, 

7 supervise, coordinate the OSD and the Secretary's role in 

8 covert action, to bring to bear policy inputs in covert 

9 action and other similar intelligence-related or CIA- 

10 related activities. 

11 Q Is it fair to say that one of its purposes is 

12 to ensure proper staffing of a request to transfer 

13 materiel or equipment to the CIA both as to issues like 

14 readiness emd the legal review that's necessary? 

15 A One of its functions, yes, could be said to be 

16 that. May I add a point here? I believe we still do not 

17 in an unclassified way identify this cluster of people 

18 with this activity. It has a different name, as you 

19 know. 

20 Q Yes, sir. Do you have an opinion as to 
whether the ^^^^^^^^^^^^Hwas either or 

22 bypassed with regard to the Iran arms transfer, what the 

23 Army knew as Project SNOWBALL — that's the TOM missiles 

24 — and Project CROCUS, the name they gave to the HAWK 

25 repair parts? 



UNetftSSIFlED 



477 



:^0tftss\nto 



1 A Th« p«opl« at th« staff level Involved in the 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^fwere wouldn't use the 

3 word "bypassed" for the fact that the Secretary of 

4 Defense himself was directly involved in this, at that 

5 time, very sensitive action. And he has the authority, 

6 clearly, to shrink down the number of people involved. 

7 The system serves the Secretary. It's not there for some 
e other purpose. 

9 Q And in fact the system as it exists now was 

10 created by or at the direction of Secretary Weinberger; 

11 is that correct? 

12 A At least Z can speak to exactly what existed 

13 before under Secretary Brown. I know the unit existed 

14 when I assumed office here. But the detailed procedures 

15 laid down in the DOD directive were instituted under 

16 Secretary Weinberger. 

17 Q Mr. Secretary, are you aware of any sensitive 

18 transfers from any of the services to the CIA in your 

19 tenure which have not gone through the| 

20 other than these? 

21 A By transfers you meem — 

22 Q Materiel or equipment. 

23 A Equipment or materiel, not information or 

24 documents? 

25 Q Yes, sir. 



^iNCtftSSIF'iEO 



478 



UNGiASSIFIED 



8 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 




A No, Z'n not avar* of any transmittal of 
equipment or materiel to the Agency of significant value. 

Q Is it fair to say that there have been some 
transfers that in fact were fairly sensitive, such as 

or support to the CIaI 
in fact, as I understand it, have 
gone through the^^^^^^^^^^^^H formally; is 
correct? 

A Yes. The^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Bserves to handle 
requests from the Agency, normally under a Finding, _for 
materiel or for services, and then it serves to process 
these requests and respond to thea. 

Q Do you know whether those parties here in the 
Department involved in working a particular request as 

the^^^^^^^^^^^^Hactually see the 
Is that part of the process or not? 

A Could you repeat the question? 

Q When you have a request for transfer to the 
goes through the forma l^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hdo 
the parties within the Department of Defense or within a 
particular service who are work ing that rec[uirement as 
part of the^^^^^^^^^^^^H actually see the 

A I guess I have a problem with the word 
"parties". 

Q Individuals? 



ONCr/rSSIFIED 



479 



UNCtASSIFSED 




1 A I normally ••• th« Findings. 

2 is now in charge of th« 

3 the Findings and sea tharn^ 

4 ^^^^^^reports . Th« Gen«ral Counsal can see the Findings. 

5 I don't know who else would look at thes in the services 

6 or in JCS. 

7 Q Is that a recent phenomenon or is that the way 

8 it's been done throughout your tenure? 

9 A I don't recall a different procedure, but 

10 there may have been some gradual changes that wouldn't 

11 coma back to my mind. 

12 Q In terms of the Iran arms sales, the TOW 

13 missiles in 1986 and the HAWK repair parts in 1986, did 

14 you ever see a Finding in those cases? 

15 A No, not at that time. 

16 Q With regard to the 1985 HAWK and TOW transfers 

17 not directly from the United States but U.S. -provided 

18 TOWs and HAWKs that were in Israeli stocks which we now 

19 Icnow were transferred to Iran and a Finding was done, as 

20 we've had testimony on, and signed by the President on 

21 December 5, did you ever see that Finding — December 5, 

22 1985? 

23 A Again, not at that time. I may have seen it 

24 In the newspaper* recently. 

25 Q Let me ask you in a more open-ended way to 



^^WCtBSff'fo 



480 



1 



UN€LftSSIF!ED 



10 



1 just tell us what your knowledge was of the transfers and 

2 when you acquired that knowledge, and let's just do it 

3 chronologically and start with the '85 TOW shipments and 

4 HAWK shipments, and if you want to lump those together 

5 that's fine. 

6 When were you made aware that those transfers 

7 from Israel had gone forward to Iran? 

8 A I don't recall having heard about those 

9 transfers before I read about them either in the 

10 newspapers or in the Tower report. 

11 Q So that would have been post-November 25, the 

12 date of the Attorney General's press conference? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q And the TOW shipments in 1936, the direct 

15 shipments of Army-provided TOWs to the CIA, when were you 

16 first made aware that they were going forward? 

17 A With the specific details again not until 

18 after November last year. The generic idea of providing 

19 certain equipment for Iran under the context of some 

20 broader policy considerations I learned about in the 

21 first part of last year. 

22 Q Are you able to date it any more precisely 

23 than that? 

24 A It was when Noel Koch was still here and is 

25 was through him that I learned about it because he was 



JNOCASSIFIEB 



481 



UNGIASSIF^ED 



11 



1 then in charge of the terrorism/counterterrorism area in 

2 the policy cluster. 

3 Q So you learned that directly from Mr. Koch? 

4 A Right. But I don't recall it having been 

5 specific in terms of what kind of equipment, such as TOWs 

6 or other things. 

7 Q If I understand what you're saying, though, 

8 rather than a prospective there is an opening to Iran and 

9 we night at some future point supply arms, was it we are 

10 in the process or have supplied arms to Iran? 

11 A As I recall it — and I'm not sure I recall it 

12 that precisely — it was that this was something under 

13 consideration. And I also recall that Secretary 

14 Weinberger was informed about it and he thought it was 

15 not a good idea and I was told he made his views known on 

16 that, and since I shared these views I felt that that 

17 aspect was covered. 

18 Q And in terms of Secretary Weinberger's views, 

19 did you also learn those views and that he had made them 

20 ]cno%fn£rom Mr. Koch or from someone else? 

21 A I believe from Mr. Koch, but I also knew it 

22 from general broader discussions with Secretary 

23 Weinberger about our policy towards Iran. It was totally 

24 consistent. 

25 Q And if I understand your testimony you 



IF'.ED 



482 



UNCLASSIFSED 



TOP SECRET 12 

1 basically agreed with the Secretary on those points? 

2 A As I just mentioned, I did not see the need 

3 for a policy recommendation to the Secretary that would 

4 add anything to the policy that he was already 

5 advocating. 

6 Q If he had come to you and said we are in the 

7 process of considering the transfer of TOW missiles or 

8 HAWK repair parts to Iran, I need some policy input to 

9 help me shape my views, what would you have told him, if 

10 he*d been asked by the President, for example, to provide 

11 input. 

12 A Well, that's a hypothetical question and it's 

13 made a little bit more difficult by the phase "we are in 

14 the process". I mean, it's already happened, the 

15 President has decided, or we are going to discuss it with 

16 the President, or what? 

17 Q Well, you answer it in whatever way makes you 

18 most comforteUsle. I recognize it's hypothetical. I 

19 could ask it differently. Basically I'm asking you what 

20 are your views in terms of this initiative and the wisdom 

21 of it. 

22 A If he had said I'm going to a meeting at the 

23 White House where this idea will be discussed and what is 

24 your input, I would think, looking back at that time, I 

25 would have counseled, would have advised him, to speak up 



UNCrffSSIFiED 



483 



(JN<lk^SIF:ED 



13 



1 against it. 

2 Q And on what basis? 

3 A Again it's a hypothetical question and 

4 referring to a previous time period. I do recall a memo 

5 I once wrote, which I think we made available to you, 

6 earlier — it was half a year or so earlier — where I 

7 stressed the Importance that in anything we did designed 

8 to work on our long-term strategic relationship with Iran 

9 it be kept in mind that the Iranians might have an 

10 interest in leaking whatever we did, and we had to 

11 therefore conduct ourselves in such a way that that 

12 wouldn't hurt us. 

13 Now, depending on the hypotheticals that you 

14 apply to your question, that might have applied here. 

15 Q In terms of the wisdom of the policy 

16 initiative itself, let me then just ask some specific 

17 questions. Would you have counseled against it on the 

18 basis that it was counter to our policy, our stated 

19 policy, as you understood it at the time of not selling 

20 arms, not trading arms with Iran? 

21 A Again, just guessing in response to a 

22 hypothetical question, I might have made the point that 

23 it might appear to be contrary to our policy of not 

24 dealing with countries — giving arms or making arms 

25 available to countries involved in terrorism, that it 



CWCtlSSIFJED 



484 



UNOkA&SIFSED 



14 



1 might appear that It was contrary to our policy on 

2 hostages, and that It might leak, as I already mentioned, 

3 become public. 

4 Q Would you have said it would be counter to our 

5 policy of encouraging our allies not to sell arms to 

6 Iran? 

7 A If I had thought of that point, I might have 

8 added that. Maybe I would have given that less weight 

9 since that policy was only partially successful anyhow. 

10 Q Would you have counseled that it would have 

11 been counter to our policy of expressed neutrality in the 

12 Iran-Iraq war? 

13 MR. SHAPIRO: John, may Counsel interject a 

14 question just to see if we can clarify this? It is 

15 obvious that Secretary Ikle finds the notion of questions 

16 which so clearly call for hindsight to be discomforting 

17 in the sense that they call for a prediction of past 

18 behavior. Do you meim to be asking whether he thought 

19 these were valid considerations at the time, whether he 

20 thinlcs he necessarily would have raised them, or whether 

21 he now believes that they were then valid reasons to have 

22 opposed the transfer? 

23 MR. SAXOK: I understand the difficulty of 

24 hypothetical questions in general, and particularly 

25 looking back on a particular initiative or policy. I am 



UNeiASSIF^tED 



485 



UNCt/m/REO 



15 



1 simply trying to find out from the Secretary, as the top 

2 policy man at the Pentagon, what his views were at the 

3 time. And that's why I asked the open-ended question 

4 initially of if Secretary Weinberger had come to you and 

5 said what are your thoughts about this proposal, either 

6 before the fact or in the middle of doing it, or at 

7 whatever stage where input can still be had, what would 

8 those views have been. 

9 And I got something of a general view. I'm 

10 not trying to lead him and get him to say yes. If he 

11 disagrees when I say would it have been counter to this, 

12 then the answer is no. Fine. 

13 MR. SHAPIRO: Well, I don't think I mean to be 

14 saying that you are trying to lead him, only that there 

15 may be a distinction. In fact, there is a distinction 

16 between what he would have said and what his views were, 

17 or there's a distinction between those two questions. 

18 There may not be a distinction between the answer. 

19 Can we clarify which question it is? 

20 MR. SAXON: I'm not sure I understand the 

21 point you just made. I assume someone can only state 

22 what their views are. 

23 MR. SHAPIRO: Okay, because those are not the 

24 terms in which the question was put, and I thought the 

25 clarification was worthwhile. Mr. Secretary, is that 

unoiasssf:ed 



486 



UNCUSStfSED 



16 



1 helpful? 

2 THE WITNESS: Well, the difficulty is to 

3 distinguish what we all know from hindsight from a 

4 hypothetical prediction, a hypothetical kind of causal 

5 explanation, whatever you call it, of what I would have 

6 said if I had been pressed to offer advice at the 

7 particular time, which itself is defined vaguely in your 

8 question. 

9 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

10 Q I think plain and simply that's the question. 

11 A I can speak clearly to what I wrote down at an 

12 earlier period. I have mentioned that. 

13 Q Do you have an opinion as to what your 

14 response would have been if anyone at the time asked you 

15 whether you thought this kind of initiative would have an 

16 effect on the taking of future hostages? Would it be 

17 counterproductive in that regard? 

18 A It would have depended more on the details as 

19 to whether this transfer could be seen as being directed 

20 primarily or secondarily at hostages, hostage release. 

21 It would have depended on that. 

22 Q Suppose you had been shown the December 1985 

23 Finding which Admiral Poindexter has said was straight 

24 arms for hostages, and if you had been shown that before 

25 it was signed and asked whether you think that would have 



t'NettSSIFJED 



487 



oNOtf^lFiED 



17 



1 had any Impact on the taking of additional hostages, what 

2 would your response have been? 

3 A I don't have that Finding in front of me now. 

4 MR. SHAPIRO: Mr. Saxon, I must say I think 

5 that's awfully difficult to ask a hypothetical question 

6 about a document that the testimony says has been 

7 destroyed and no longer exists and which Secretary Ikle 

8 has testified he hasn't seen. 

9 MR. SAXON: Well, for that matter, none of us 

10 have seen it, as much as we might like to. I just used 

11 that as a concrete example. I can ask the question more 

12 abstractly. 

13 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

14 Q And that is, if you were told, since you 

15 indicated you would normally see Findings such as this, 

16 if you were told the specific proposal is that we are 

17 trading arms for hostages without consideration of 

18 broader openings to Iran, would you have had a view, if 

19 asked, as the Department's top policy advisor, with 

20 regard to whether that might have led to future taking of 

21 hostages? 

22 A If that had come to me as a draft Finding and 

23 I would have transmitted it to the Secretary, I would 

24 have urged him to oppose it. 

25 Q Okay. That's helpful. I'm not trying to pin 



JiNemsiFJED 



488 



UNObA^IFSED 



18 



1 you down and I'm not trying to get any statement on the 

2 record that in any way is an embarrassment to the 

3 Administration in terms of what was done. I'm simply 

4 trying to find out. We know that that happened, if 

5 Admiral Poindexter's testimony is accurate, and I've got 

6 no reason to believe that it isn't, on this point. 

7 If you had been shown a draft Finding that 

8 dealt exclusively with arms for hostages and had been 

9 aslced whether you thought that would be counterproductive 

10 in that it might lead to the taking of future hostages, 

11 what might have been your answer? 

12 A As I said before, I would have recommended to 

13 the Secretary of Defense that he recommend to the 

14 President not to sign such a Finding, the reason being 

15 that it could stimulate — that it was contrary to our 

16 essentially proven policy on dealing with hostage 

17 situations. 

18 Q I don't know if that's a yes or no as to 

19 whether you would have thought it might have led to the 

20 future taking of hostages, that it would have been 

21 counterproductive in that regard. 

22 A Well, if elaboration were needed, I probably 

23 would have pointed out that the U.S. policy on dealing 

24 with hostage situations was set up this way in order not 

25 to stimulate new hostage-taking, not to get into 



UNi>tft^F'tO 



489 



UNaa^lHED 



19 



1 blackmail situations, yet leaving some room for 

2 discussion, negotiation to free the hostages where 

3 possible. 

4 Q Let me go back to the specifics of this case. 

5 You indicated that you learned from Mr. Koch early on, 

6 without lots of details, that it was under consideration 

7 or that we were in some stage of going forward. After 

8 you learned that did you ever have occasion prior to 

9 November, when these matters became public, to talk about 

10 the Iran arms initiative with Secretary Weinberger? 

11 A Not that I recall. 

12 Q Did you ever have occasion to talk zJsout the 

13 Iran arms initiative again in the same time frame, once 

14 you learned eibout it in a general way from Mr. Koch up 

15 until November, when the matters became public, with lots 

16 of details, with Secretary Taft? 

17 A Not that I recall. 

18 Q Mr. Armitage? 

19 A I believe discussions with him were probably 
2 about the aame time that Noel Koch mentioned this, not 

21 after that. But my memory could be wrong on that. 

22 Q And I take it from that you would not have 

2 3 discussed it with Mr. Armitage prior to learning It from 

24 Noel Koch? 

25 A I don't recall a discussion. I recall plenty 



UN0t^/rSS1F:ED 



490 



GNCtASSlFSEO 



20 



1 of discussions with Mr. Armitage about our relations with 

2 Iran. 

3 MR. SHAPIRO: Covjnsel, I take it your last 

4 question had reference to knowledge of the specific 

5 action, the actuality of the specific action? 

6 MR. SAXON: I'm sorry. Yes, not the broader 

7 question. 

8 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

9 Q For the record, I know the answer but we 

10 should make this clear for subsequent readers. You 

11 indicated that international security affairs is under 

12 you and Mr. Armitage was at these times and is now the 

13 Assistant Secretary for International Security Affairs 

14 and reported to you; is that correct? 

15 A That is correct. 

16 Q Did he ever have occasion to tell you in late 

17 1985 that he had had any discussions with Lieutenant 

18 Colonel Oliver North zibout Colonel North's meetings at 

19 that time with the Iranians and the discussions that were 

20 taking place? 

21 A I recall no such observations. 

22 Q Did Mr. Armitage ever tell you in late 1985 

23 that he had any role in briefing Secretary Weinberger or 

24 generating or presenting to the Secretary any briefing 

25 papers on HAWK missiles or TOW missiles to give the 



UNairssiriiD 



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UMCLASSIFSED 



21 



1 Secretary prior to a meeting that Secretary Weinberger 

2 attended at the White House on December 7, 1985? 

3 A I don't recall. 

4 Q The same question as to Mr. Koch. 

5 A No, I don't recall. 

6 Q I believe when we met with you in April you 

7 indicated that at the time in early 1986 when the first 

8 shipments went directly from the United States to Iran 

9 that we had Presidentially-imposed restrictions on the 

10 sale of arms to Iran; is that correct — that they had 

11 been in place? 

12 A It sounds correct to me. We could look this 

13 up. It's a matter of the record. 

14 Q When Mr. Koch told you what was in the process 

15 of being done or under consideration, whichever it was, 

16 in terms of the arms shipments to Iran, what was your 

17 reaction to that, if you recall? 

18 A The reaction that I recall is what I already 

19 indicated, that this might become known to various 

20 groups, including the general public, and be misconstrued 

21 or construed as being contrary to our hostage policy and, 

22 therefore, harmful. 

23 Q At any point did you ask Mr. Koch or anyone 

24 else whether the Congress had been notified that this was 

25 in the process of being done? 



uNCrfCS^F'.EB 



492 



liNMSSir^tD 



22 



1 A I don't recall asking hln that, and when we 

2 had the discussions It was more, as I said before, a plan 

3 or proposal than an action. 

4 Q Did Mr. Koch indicate to you that he had 

5 played any role directly in negotiating with the Israelis 

6 on the price for a TOW missile that they would pay? 

7 A No. 

8 Q Did Mr. Armitage ever indicate, either at the 

9 time or later, that in early 1986 he might have had any 

10 discussions with representatives of the Israeli 

11 government about the arms initiative? 

12 A No. By the arms initiative you mean — 

13 Q The direct sale of arms to Iran, either direct 

14 to Iran or indirectly through Israel. 

15 Mr. Secretary, I promised you I would show you 

16 a few documents, and you can tell me if you've ever seen 

17 them. The first one that we will have marked as Ikle 

18 Exhibit 1, I'll give you a minute to read it, but let me 

19 tell you what you are looking at. 

20 (The document referred to was 

21 marked Ikle Exhibit Number 

22 1 for identification.) 

23 First, I apologize for the poor copy, but this 

24 has been copied so many times, and then we sent it to the 

25 White House, and after it came back unclassified it was 



GrnrcoiFSEB 



493 



yNeiA^^FlED 



23 



1 even fainter. Up above, right underneath where it is 

2 stamped unclassified, it's ever so faint, but it says 

3 "Point Paper", and below that it says "HAWK Missiles for 

4 Iran". So you will know what you are looking at, this is 

5 a point paper that Dr. Henry Gaffney within DSAA prepared 

6 on or about 19 November 8 5 at the request of either Colin 

7 Powell or Noel Koch. 

8 I'll give you a moment to finish looking at 

9 it. 

10 (Pause.) 

11 A All right. 

12 Q Let me ask you first, Mr. Secretary, do you 

13 recall ever having seen this prior to today? I realize 

14 you see lots of documents and lots of papers. 

15 A I don't recall having seen it prior to today. 

16 Whether it was in one of these newspaper reproductions or 

17 in the Tower report, I didn't see it there. 

18 Q It was not in the Tower report. It was an 

19 exhibit when Dr. Gaffney testified in our joint hearings 

20 on June 23, and it was talked zibout, and I'm sure it was 

21 written in some ways about. 

22 A I didn't read everything, so I don't recall 

23 seeing it then. I read about it. 

24 Q I'm not going to walk you through it and have 

25 you comment on particular statements. I think it speaks 



uN^t^SlF'cED 



494 



^NCLft^SlFiED 



24 



1 for itself and I'm not sure — you've talked generally 

2 about the arms initiative and what your views might have 

3 been or are. I'll just ask one final question. 

4 Do you recall at the time this was done — 

5 and, as I said. Dr. Gaffney puts it on or about 19 

6 November 85 — having any knowledge of it either from Dr. 

7 Gaffney, General Powell, Mr. Koch or Mr. Armitage? Do 

8 you think you had any contemporaneous knowledge that this 

9 was being generated? 

10 A I don't recall. 

11 Q Again, we're not trying in this deposition to 

12 trip you up or point out any inconsistency. Let me just 

13 indicate what my notes suggest you said in April and see 

14 if that helps in any way or if it doesn't. I asked you 

15 about Dr. Gaffney 's point paper in April and you said you 

16 didn't recall it. And then I described it and your 

17 answer, if I recorded it properly, was that you maybe 

18 recalled it. You didn't think that the White House was 

19 mentioned, but that General Powell was a name that might 

20 have been mentioned in the context of this paper. 

21 Does that help in any way as to whether you 

22 would have had any knowledge of it? 

23 A It doesn't. 

24 Q Okay, fine. Let me have marked, then, the 

25 next document as Deposition Exhibit 2. 



•JNi;tflSSlF"E9 



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UN€1*SS!F"El) 



25 



1 (The document referred to was 

2 marked Ikle Exhibit Number 

3 2 for identification.) 

4 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

5 MR. SAXON: Back on the record. 

6 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

7 Q Let me give you a moment, Mr. Secretary, to 

8 read this document. It might make more sense if I take a 

9 minute and tell you what it is you are looking at. 

10 It is a document that was prepared, according 

11 to this one statement of Mr. Glenn Rudd, by him at the 

12 request of Mr. Armitage and with the assistance and input 

13 of Dr. Gaffney sometime in November or December — late 

14 November or early December — 1985 and, as Mr. Rudd 

15 understood it, Mr. Armitage asked for this in order to 

16 provide it as part of briefing materials for Secretary 

17 Weinberger in anticipation of the Secretary's going to a 

18 December 7 meeting at the White House. 

19 I'll give you a moment to look at it. 

20 (Pause.) 

21 Let me ask first if you recall having ever 

22 seen this document before today. 

23 A I do not recall. 

24 Q Let me ask essentially the same question as 

25 with Exhibit 1. Do you recall having any contemporaneous 



urfdiimiFeED 



496 



UNetftSSlFIED 



26 



1 knowledge In late November or early December of 1985 that 

2 this document had been requested, or something along 

3 these lines, by Mr. Armitage, that it was being worked on 

4 by Mr. Rudd or Dr. Gaffney ~ anything along those lines? 

5 A Unless I misread this memo, reading it quickly 

6 it doesn't say where these things should be shipped to. 

7 Q That is correct. 

8 A It is, therefore, like many of the 

9 hypothetical questions that are directed to DSAA, which I 

10 don't see all of — it would take up too much of my time 

11 — whether some type of equipment could be diverted from 

12 being destined from one country to be used somewhere else 

13 or other services or vice versa, and these hypothetical 

14 assessments by DSAA are made quite often. So it would be 

15 quite natural, as long as it's in that context, and I 

16 wouldn't get involved in it. 

17 Q You may wish to u&e a different word than 

18 "diverted". That's become a term of art with pejorative 

19 meanings these days. 

20 A Allocated. Both Assistant Secretaries, ISA, 

21 ISP, often ask DSAA for some factual assessment of this 

22 kind. 

23 Q As I said, I have no reason to believe you saw 

24 these before and, for that matter, there's no suggestion 

25 that if you did or didn't see them that's good, bad or 



KCt^SIFSED 



497 



UNCCASSiriiiD 



27 



1 indifferent. 

2 Let me show you a third exhibit and ask that 

3 this be marked as Ikle Deposition Exhibit 3. 

4 (The document referred to was 

5 marked Ikle Exhibit Number 3 

6 for identification.) 

7 Let me tell you what this is, and then I'll 

8 give you a moment to read it. This is a document 

9 likewise prepared by Mr. Rudd for Mr. Armitage at Mr. 

10 Armitage 's request in that same time frame of late 

11 November/early December of *85, possibly for use to brief 

12 Secretary Weinberger. 

13 (Pause.) 

14 A This is from Rudd? 

15 Q Yes, sir. Do you have any knowledge of having 

16 seen this paper before today? 

17 A I do not. 

18 Q And do you recall having been made aware in 

19 that time frame of a reference in late '85 that either 

20 Secretary Armitage had requested such a paper be prepared 

21 or that Mr. Rudd was working on such a paper? 

22 _A~ No. I have not. But such a paper doesn't say 
2 3 very much. This is standard recitation of the legal 

24 requirements about notification. I sometimes ask for a 

25 reminder of such a thing, or Rich Armitage might, or 



GNeiASSIFSED 



498 



UNCtA-SSIFSED 



28 



1 Perl*. The only word there that may carry a little more 

2 weight is "this project", which is not fully explained. 

3 Q That's correct, sir. Did you have any 

4 dealings with or conversations with General Colin Powell 

5 in late 1985 or early '86 with regard to this project, 

6 meaning arms sales to Iran? 

7 A No, I don't recall. 

8 Q I think I know the answer to this, and I asked 

9 you aibout this in April, but for the record we probably 

10 should have it down. Even though Mr. Koch, as principal 

11 Deputy Assistant Secretary for International Security 

12 Affairs normally worked under and reported to Secretary 

13 Armitage, as I understand it, on terrorism matters he 

14 reported directly to you; is that correct, sir? 

15 A Yes. He based that on or we based that on a 

16 memo, if I recall, that Deputy Secretary Thayer had 

17 signed some time ago. 

18 Q That would be Paul Thayer, Mr. Taft's 

19 predecessor? 

20 A Yes. 

21 Q And, as I understand the policy, that would be 

22 to have the Pentagon's principal terrorism official 

23 reporting to you directly? 

24 A I think we might want to look up the memo and 

25 see what the context is. Right. It's some time ago now. 



mamm 



499 



liNCL'A^FSED 



29 



1 Q Did Mr. Amltage ever have occasion prior to 

2 these matters becoming public, which again for easy 

3 reference we can put at November 25, 1986 and the 

4 Attorney General's press conference, to make you aware of 

5 what he had learned about Colonel North's activities on 

6 the contra side of the Iraqrnontra. affair? 

7 A By Colonel North's activities on the contra 

8 side, what do you refer to there? 

9 ^ Discussions that Mr. Armltage had with Colonel 

10 North about Colonel North's Involvement In fundralslng 

11 activities or private supply operation, some of the 

12 matters to which Colonel North has testified recently? 

13 I'm not suggesting that Mr. Armltage was witting of all 

14 of those things, because he certainly wasn't, and It 

15 would be unfair to characterize It that way. 

16 B\xt j^^t»M^tpld va^ij} his deposition that at 

17 various times during or after RIG meetings, for example, 

18 when Colonel North had gotten a lot of adverse publicity 

19 In some of the Miami papers about his contra activities 

20 Mr. Armltage asked him about it and they discussed it. 

21 Likewise, Mr. Armltage was present when he and Mr. Abrams 

22 and Colonel North discussed some of these activities. 

23 Did he ever report any of that back to you? 

24 MR. SHAPIRO: I'm going to interject here. I 

25 wonder if we caTt*C relffiime the question to make it a 



ONffLirSSlF'EO 



500 



bNClASSJFaED 



30 



1 llttla bit clearer, If possible. X just think it may not 

2 be clear here froa the context exactly what it is Colonel 

3 North may have said to Secretary Armitage, and I think 

4 that may cause some difficulty with the question. 

5 KR. SAXON: I understand. That's fair. 

6 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

7 Q Let me see if I can go at this way. Was there 

8 ever an occasion on which Mr. Amitage said to you that 

9 he had come to ]cnow or suspected that Colonel North may 

10 be involved in some contra support activities that 

11 arguably would be in violation of the Boland Amendment? 

12 Let me put it that way as a starter. 

13 A No. 

14 Q Did he ever indicate to you that he had had 

15 discussions with Colonel North in which he asked him the 

16 nature of his. Colonel North's, involveaent in suppHfting 

17 the cont^*lS^^-,^^,g^- ^^ -^ M ^^M 

18 A -fedon't t(^i^^t:j;t'« pw 

19 That wouldn't particularly leaVe an:J.ndellbl«,aeaocy ■ 

20 because, like many.^eople in government and outside, I 

21 was aware that Colonel North wa» trying to help the' 

22 contr«a in some wft](s by lookl|^at wbat^« thoughe war»z^ 

23 and what I think VMM legally posS&le iwqpB for niaiag * 

24 monies. "- -, ^; ~ ~ T i'..^^*mt, 

25 Q Let me ask the question in a more 



UNCUA^FPEB 



.4^ 



501 



10 



UNG^A^iFSED 



31 



1 way, ^A, ^following on thaf^^l^ar, ' What was tSft Stat* 

2 of your knowladga ear undaratsndlnj About Colonel Mortlv!..« 

3 actlvltlas to aid that. contraa? ..,-^. - -fr-. 

4 A ^No <|«talls. X thijdc I r«ad~tn th« nawspapira 

5 — I don't know whatlMi^it wa» bafora ilovatfMroz «ft4^. 

6 — about private contributors andr^ of coursa, jwe had 

7 repeatjrt discussions aboot whan It wouldh^ b*<i0Mr lagalj; to 

8 ask fOT* third country Jiialp . J^ thasa wara thaLMin ~. ^ 

9 dimensions. is^Tri ^ 
^-^^^Id yott hMfa uty knd^adga, -jtrlor to ^m«« : 

11 matters becoming public, that Colonel North was Involve? 



12 In a direct way In aiding the resupply operation that was 

13 being conducted privately? 

14 A No, not In a direct — Z don't know what you 

15 mean by aiding direct. That can range all the way from 

16 encouraging private donations to flying the supplies down 

17 yourself. So what Is It you mean? 

18 Q Colonel North haa teatlfled that ha was 

19 Involved In a number of things, from helping procure 

20 aircraft for the resupply operation, helping position 

21 people who could aid In Central America in the resupply 

22 operation, being a point man for problems that ware 

23 incurred by those involved with the resupply operation, 

24 and being the operational point of intersection. 

25 A I didn't have a good picture of the full range 



U 



mnmm 



502 



(JNiH:A3§IF^ED 



32 



I 



1 of activities to which h« nay have sine* tastlflad. I 

2 was awar* that h« would racalv* and axchang* a lot of 

3 Information about th« situation of ths contras, and 

4 probably had a csrtain relationship to privat* 

5 fundralsing. That was about it. 

6 Q You mentioned a moment ago the point at which 

7 it might have become legal to solicit third country 

8 donations. Let me ask you in a general way what you Icnew 

9 about the solicitation efforts of which we had more 

10 recently become aware to third countries for aid to the 

11 contras. 

12 A I was in some White House meeting or meetings 

13 where we talked about the change from the prohibition of 

14 third country solicitation to its becoming authorized by 

15 Congress. And, as I recall, the sense of the meeting was 

16 that the Secretary of State or State Department people 

17 should pursue that. 

18 Q Prior to that period did you ever have 

19 occasion to learn about any contributions either 

20 solicited by the U nited States Government or volunta rily 
made, solicited of^^^^^^Hor voluntarily made by^^H 

^^^^^Hto the ^^H 

23 A Me. 

24 Q Did you ever have occasion to discuss that 

25 topic with Mr. Armitage? 



UNeitSSlF"£3 



503 



UNeU^iFEO 



33 



1 A Since I wasn't aware of it, I don't recall 

2 discussing it with him. 

3 Q And the sane question, then, of Secretary 

4 Weinberger? 

5 A No. 

6 Q Let me have marked as the next Exhibit this 

7 document, and I'll take a moment to tell you what you're 

8 looking alfr =- 

9 (The document referred to was 

10 marked Ikle Exhibit Number 4 

11 for identification.) 

12 This is a memorandum for record done by Mr. 

13 HcMahon, the Deputy Director of the CIA, on 15 March 

14 1985. As you can see, items one through six have been 

15 removed, and I direct your attention to the last sentence 

16 of item seven. I'll give you a moment to read that. 

17 (Pause.) 

18 A vmen was this? 

19 Q This memorandum was done by Mr. McMahon on 
2 March 15, 1985, and that followed one of the regular 

21 breakfast sessions that the Director and he, as Deputy 

22 Director, had with Secretary Weinberger and Secretary 

23 Taft. And while I'm not asking you to in any way vouch 

24 for the accuracy of what ha puts in there, I show you 

25 that and simply ask if you ever had occasion to hear 



UNCttSSlF'iD 



504 



UN61ASSIFIED 



34 



1 S«cr«tary W »inb«rger comment on whether he learned that 

2 ^^^^^^^Bwere going to be giving $25 million to the 

3 contras. 

4 A I don't recall. 

5 Q Do you rec all ever dis cussing the possibility 

6 or the prospective of^^^^^^^Hproviding any aid to the 

7 contras prior to that period when the Congress authorized 

8 the solicitation of third countries? 

9 A It's possible we talked about them as a 

10 potential source, along with other third country sources. 

11 Q . So, if I understand your testimony, you don't 

12 recall ever having learned — 

13 A That there actually was a contribution at a 

14 particular time. I don't recall that, no. I have known 

15 of — and this is classified sti ll, I believe -^^^^^| 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Band so nay have become 

17 blurred in that context. 

18 Q We won't inquire further into that. That's 

19 something our committees are aware of and have chosen not 

20 to go further Into. 

21 Let me ask you, along the lines of the 

22 questions I asked about Colonel North and his contra 

23 support activities, if you ever had knowledge prior to 

24 these hearings of any involvement Colonel Jim Steele may 

25 have had in^^^^^^^^Bln aiding the contra resupply 



^NetAs^in£0 



505 



UN6lJ^SSIFi£D 



35 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



operation. 

A Colonel Jim — 

Q Steele. 

A Steele? No, I did not. 

Q The same question with regard to an Individual 
named Felix Rodriguez, who also went by the name Max 
Gomez. Old you ever have any knowledge of his 
involvement in aiding the resupply operation? 

A No. 

Q Any knowledge of any activities by other Mil 
Group officials. Army officers — a Colonel Clark or 
Major Alvarez, any of those? 

A No. 

Q In the discussions you mentioned at the White 
House in which various contra, legitimate contra support 




506 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 




Q If I have already askad this, I apologize. Z 
know Z asked you about whether you had knowledge of a 
Presidential Finding which governed the 1985 shipments. 
Contemporaneously, when Mr. Koch made you aware of the 
arms to Iran initiative early last year, did you have 
knowledge that that was being done pursuant to a 
Presidential Finding? 

A Z think it was more that Koch made me aware of 
the arms to Iran idea and Z don't recall consideration of 
a Finding in that discussion. 

Q Did Mr. Sanchez — for the record, Hestor 
Sanchez, who until he left the Pentagon late last year 
was the Deputy Assistant Secretary for International 
Security Affairs responsible for Central America, if I've 
got that correctly — did Mr. Sanchez ever discuss with 



GM€UffSS»?:ED 



507 



UNCJlAS§)f*t^ 



37 



1 you any of Colonel North's activities in aiding ths 

2 contras? 

3 A Nestor Sanchez talked about Colonel North's 

4 role in their discussions in RIG meetings, his ideas and 

5 initiatives that had come to both his, Nestor's, and my 

6 attention. So he talked about these activities of 

7 Colonel North that we both knew about. 

8 Q Did Mr. Sanchez ever say anything to you that 

9 would suggest Colonel North was involved in any contra 

10 support activities in which he should not be involved? 

11 A ' I don't recall that. 

12 Q I had asked you in April about a committee 

13 that you appointed, I believe in 1984, to stu dy the 

14 United States response to counterinsurgency ir 

15 ^^^^^^Hthat was headed by General Singlaub. What can 

16 you tell us about that committee and any recommendations 

17 it made? 

18 A It met, as I recall, for a day or two and came 

19 forward with a number of suggestions or recommendations, 

20 some of which we had already in place, some of which we 

21 found not helpful, and some of which we found very 

22 helpful. 

23 Q Do you remember any of the particulars with 

24 regard to those recommendations? 

25 A No, but I could easily refresh my memory. We 



508 



(iNet/rssi 



38 



1 have a oeDO on those. 

2 Q Did General Singlaub ever tell you of any of 

3 his activities that he undertook to raise money for the 

4 contras? 

5 A I don't recall. Maybe it was much earlier, 

6 when he was involved in — wasn't he involved in some 

7 activit y in the U.S. about public information about 
^^^^^^^^^ftind so 

9 Q Yes, sir. 

10 A He had some organization which he led. 

11 ' Q The World Anticommunist League? 

12 A That I heard about, yes. 

13 Q But, if I understand your answer, you were 

14 never told by him that he was fundraising for the 

15 contras? 

16 A I don't recall his saying so, no. 

17 Q Did he ever indicate to you — I think this is 

18 subsumed under the question just asked, but let a* break 

19 it out and make sure that it's covered — did he ever 

20 indicate to you he was raising money in direct 

21 solicitation to third countries for the contras? 

22 A I don't recall that. 

23 Q Did he ever tell you he was involved as a 

24 middle man or broker, if you will, in acquiring arms from 

25 non-U. S. providers for the contras? 



yNCm^iFSED 



509 



UHCtftSSlFSED 



39 



1 A Again, I don't recall it. I haven'-^ seen hin 

2 that Buch." ^^_- *■. ^ _ .^IH^^' 'A ^ ^ ^' 

3 Q l4gL a^nsk- you, bef or* w« laiw tots^ly the 

4 Iran arms initiat gly , to Bl^l^t on* ^Mitional exhibit , 

5 which I will have marked as, I beli*v*, Exhibit 5. 

6 (Th* document referred to was 

7 marked Ikle Exhibit Number 5 

8 for identification.) 

9 Ijet me tell you what this is you are looking 

10 at. You are looking at a handwritten note by Noel Koch 

11 made sometime in the March or April time frame of 1986 

12 and, for what it's worth, X have no reason to believe you 

13 would have ever seen this, but I want you to take a 

14 minute to look at it and I'll ask you a couple of 

15 c[uestions. 

16 (Pause.) 

17 A I'm not sure I can read it all. 

18 Q For that matter, it was used as an exhibit 

19 when Mr. Koch testified on June 23, and he couldn't read 

20 all of it. I had to refresh his recollection from what 

21 he had told us earlier in deposition as to what he 

22 thought some of those words at the bottom said. 

23 Item number one — and these are his numbering 

24 — says "TOW discussed separately with Rudd and Gaffney 

25 in December". You've already Indicated that you had no 



yMCtftSSIF^B 



510 



\3N©LI^»^*^^ 



40 



1 contemporaneous knowledge of that. 

2 Item number four says: "TOW paper locked in 

3 RLA safe." He says that RLA is Richard L. Armitage. 

4 "Wouldn't let Rudd keep copy." 

5 Did you ever have reason to know prior to 

6 today that Mr. Armitage had kept a copy of the Rudd TOW 

7 paper? 

8 A That one there? 

9 Q Ves, sir. 

10 A No. I would have mentioned that before. 

11 Q Further down in this exhibit Mr. Koch says: 

12 "Gast said best possibility of cover" — and I can't make 

13 out that next word — "do it black" . His testimony 

14 indicated that either General Gast or Mr. Rudd indicated 

15 to him that if we were going to transfer arms to Iran, 

16 given the problems with direct sale through FMS and the 

17 quantities of weapons being talked about at the time and 

18 the subsequent dollar eunounts, that the $14 million 

19 threshold would be exceeded for purposes of Congressional 
2 notification and if this were going to be kept secret, 

21 which is his word, then the conclusion was the best way 

22 to do it was to do it black, which he explained to be 

23 transfer them to the CIA and make it an intelligence 

24 activity and do it covert. 

25 Were you party to any discussions with any 



yN@itSS!F5£D 



511 



UNO^ftSSIFiED 



41 



1 individuals here at the Pentagon in the late '85 or early 

2 '86 time frame about the wisdom of transferring any arms 

3 to Iran prospectively in terms of white world security 

4 assistance sales versus a covert sale? 

5 A I recall a suggestion contained in a draft, I 

6 think, National Security Decision document in the NSC, 

7 and I think if I can place that in time that was in the 

8 summer of '85. 

9 Q That's correct, if you're referring to the 

10 draft NSDD that Mr. McFarlane sent Secretary Weinberger 

11 and Secretary Shultz and a response was drafted by Mr. 

12 Armitage, went through you to Secretary Weinberger. 

13 A Right. 

14 Q That would be your only knowledge prior to Mr. 

15 Koch telling you what was going on? 

16 A Yes, as I recall it. 

17 Q Let me ask you a question or two about General 

18 Secord, not so much the period when he was employed here 

19 at the Pentagon but subsequent to that. It's our 

20 understanding that he was on the SOPAG, the Special 

21 Operations Policy Advisory Group, that Mr. Koch headed, 

22 and then I believe Mr. Armitage took over when Mr. Koch 

23 left. 

24 Do you have any knowledge of the reasons why 

25 General Secord was taken off the SOPAG? 



UNei#^Sr:tD 



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UNCLl^FSti) 



42 



1 A No. 

2 Q Let me show you a doctiment — and again this 

3 may not refresh your recollection or change your answer 

4 in any way. I'll have this marked as Exhibit 6. 

5 (The document referred to was 

6 marked Ikle Exhibit Number 6 

7 for identification.) 

8 Let me tell you what you are looking at. 

9 These are answers provided by Secretary Weinberger to the 

10 House Intelligence Committee last December, 18 December 

11 86, after these matters became public and a number of 

12 questions were propounded to the Secretary. If you will 

13 look at Question 4 and Question 5, I'll give you a chance 

14 to read that. 

15 (Pause.) 

16 A All right. 

17 Q Secretary Weinberger's response to Chairman 

18 Hamilton under Item 5 indicates that General Secord'a 

19 membership on the SOPAG was terminated on 4 August 86 

20 based upon his failure to provide the Department with 

21 financial information, which we understand to be a 

22 financial disclosure statement. I simply ask you if 

23 prior to seeing this document and prior to my asking you 

24 about this in April if that was ever brought to your 

25 attention? 



ONCtfASftFJED 



513 



ijNOLA^FSED 



43 



1 A No, I did not get involved in the SOPAG 

2 membership. 

3 Q Were you ever aware of any discussions in late 

4 1985 about United States replenishing Israeli stocks of 

5 TOWs or HAWKS for any TOWs and HAWKs which had been sent 

6 to Iran or, prospectively, whether we would replenish if 

7 they in fact did send TOWs and HAWKs to Iran? 

8 A I think this is the same or similar question I 

9 answered in the negative before, and my answer would be 

10 no. 

11 Q More or less it was subsumed under the earlier 

12 question, but specifically on the issue of replenishment 

13 I want to make sure that we've covered it that way. 

14 A Right. 

15 Q I should ask for the record whether you were 

16 aware of any diversion of funds from the arms sales to 

17 Iran to the contras. 

18 A I was not, prior to November and the Meese 

19 statement. 

20 Q And, for that matter, Mr. Secretary, were you 

21 ever made aware of any diversion of funds from other 

22 programs or diversion of materiel and equipment from 

23 other programs to the contras, particularly during the 

24 period in which the Boland Amendment cut off all U.S. 

25 funding? 



l/NetASSIFfED 



514 



yNC4A^FlED 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 




Q Mr. Secretary/ one of the thlnga that's under 
you, although admittedly a level or two dovm, is security 
assistance. Let me ask you what your understanding is of 
the restrictions on third party transfers. If we sell 
through foreign military sales some equipment, whatever 
it happened to be, to another country, what are the 
restrictions, as you understand it, which govern the 
transfer from that country to a subsequent transferee? 

A As I recall it, that requires U.S. Government 



approval . 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 



And who has to provide that approval? 
Who in the U.S. Government? 
Yes, sir, if you know. 

The law may say the President. I don't know 
whether that's been delegated. 

Q I'm not trying to play any games. I'm just 
asking what your knowledge is. 

A I'm getting an exam on the Security Assistance 
Act. 

Q I understand that there are people at a level 
lower than you who administer that. My understanding is 



bNd/fSSiF.^EB 



515 



ON0LA^lFi'£D 



45 



1 the law says the President, but by Executive Order he has 

2 delegated that to the Secretary of State. 

3 A That's what I expected, right. 

4 MR. SHAPIRO: I know you've been through the 

5 provisions of the Arms Export Control Act with other 

6 witnesses and, of course, the statute is a natter of 

7 public record. Is there any way — I know you've got 

8 your job to do, but is there any way we could elide those 

9 questions in this session? 

10 MR. SAXON: I think that's sufficient, with 

11 one addition. 

12 BY MR. SAXON: (Resuming) 

13 Q Do you happen to know whether that approval 

14 has to be provided before the fact? 

15 A I'm not sure. It's a lengthy piece of 

16 legislation and I haven't memorized every bit of it, but 

17 I seem to recall the lav provides that it be done before. 

18 Q The final area of questions — just a couple 

19 more and I'll be through — in terms of security 

20 assistance and any linkage or quid pro quo arrangements, 

21 let ma simply ask if, to your knowledge, we have ever had 

22 any quid pro quo arrangements with the provision of U.S. 

23 security assistance along either of two lines — either 

24 in which the United States has made a condition of our 

25 providing security assistance to a recipient country that 



UNCL^ASSiFPED 



516 



UN£USSIFSED 



46 



1 they aid the contras during the period when we were not 

2 permitted to do so directly by the Boland Amendment, or, 

3 B, whether any country, any recipient country, has sought 

4 to induce our aid, security assistance, by offering to 

5 help the contras? 

6 A During the time when it was prohibited by the 

7 Boland Amendment? 

8 Q Yes. 

9 A For the U.S. Government to provide such 

10 assistance. As amended, your question, the answer to 

11 both of these is no. 

12 Q And I certainly understand that the world of 

13 security assistance is complicated and there are lots of 

14 considerations and we certainly like to help our friends 

15 and hope they help us, so I'm not suggesting with the 

16 line of questions that these are totally divorced from 

17 other factors. 

18 Z think, unless a quick look at my notes 

19 triggers something else, I think that's all I have. Let 

20 me see If my colleagues have anything. 

21 MR. GENZMAN: Let me follow up with one 

22 question. I'm not sure I understood an earlier answer, 

23 sir. You spoke about an early memo that you had written 

24 regarding the possibility of an initiative with Iran, and 

25 I believe you mentioned or you indicated that the 



^Hm^mid 



517 



UNaAS3SF»tk) 



47 



1 Iranians might be Interested in linking — 

2 THE WITNESS: Leaking. 

3 MR. GENZMAN: That's my misunderstanding. 

4 Thank you very much. I have nothing further. 

5 MR. KREUZER: I don't have anything. 

6 MR. SAXON: Mr. Secretary, that's all I've 

7 got. Let me say while we are still on the record we 

8 appreciate your cooperation. You have made yourself 

9 available twice now. You've been very helpful and the 

10 Committee is grateful. 

11 MR. GENZMAN: Thank you very much, sir. 

12 (Whereupon, at 5:28 p.m., the taking of the 

13 instant deposition ceased.) 
14 



15 Signature of the Witness 

IS Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of 

17 , 1987. 

18 



19 Notary Public 

20 My Commission Expires: 



(iNCLA^IFSEO 



518 



3NCLASS\ra 



CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 



I, MICHAL ANN SCHAFER, the officer before whom the foregoing 
deposition was taken, to hereby certify that the witness 
whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was duly 
sworn by me; that the testimony of said witness was taken by 
me to the best of my ability and thereafter reduced to 
typewriting under my direction; that said deposition is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am 
neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the 
parties to the action in which this deposition was taken, and 
further that I am not a relative or employee of any attorney, 
or counsel employed by the parties thereto, nor financially 
or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. 



^Tnuh:il(W> 






Notary Public 
in and for the District of Columbia 



My Commission Expires: February 28, 1990 



UNCLASSIFiED 



519 



XJL, 






"here 

3u: •' 






1 ^ t ? r i < 



- r .- * ■ 



ii 



'. e ; e J ? i ' - • ^ 



a'- 



. :^u5. i>^ ^^^1- :;;%;;■'-;;■. ouu nave to s« *::!:„ -i:;"" 

To tM5. »??-- = *!:;.V :i-'-i5 and transport c.-^es. .i-s 
'""^*^' ^A >,,v.. to be replactd. so 

.»d.r.ctl> .. . ^j j^, ,^„^„ 

pVtctlc. o£ ^"•wt J scrupulously. 

S.y. «b..rv.d m. „,„{.,tory consultation .. 

ttll th»r. wHy 
delivtries. 




Ij^a^ a^cwa 



I 




520 



«^-ivL#iV>£?KLj 



92 



I 



rii ever f: 
r JC'-rce; : 
".5 .-.''.:•. eve; 



•ei:; . 

' -.3 e : ; 



::3tes w3u.; ilso 



: ■. e : 



:i < 



I: t'-.e sale Tec3-e ^^.:«-. , all iars would ie reTo\-ei fro- 

sales :> sue- C5jr.:r:?j a: Srain, Portugal. Greece, '-v;, 
Ital^-, and FRG. countries who are only barely restra;ned 
frorfl overt, large sales to Iran now. 

In short, the risk i$ that of prolonging and intensifying 
the Iran- Iraq war, while seriously compromising US influence 
over Israel ani other countries to restrain sales to Iran. 



m^'f 



S0$Et' 



521 









•^^UNCIWIEB ."— - 




^ 




rRotrictt rot XNiaoxATt tiiriavr or x-iaw And x-tom mi,. 

lBt«nd«4 for OAI aad 14 for lerM. Th« alMtlas m!!*tir*^' 

b««ii ;et •ce«pt«Ac« t«tt«4, but th«r« !• • v«ry lo« .ilT^ T«t 

falUr*. TlM ■it«il«« will b« at Had Rlvar oatll abAM* .*' 

ItM for taatia«. ^•* *Prli 

- Thara weald b« ae lapact oa tha OAI if «a ahip tbai* t. 
■iaailaa. Tba prograa hat tlippad ia otbar vaya, aad ».. w 
acco— odatad witbia tha aoraal productioa laad tia« #«• ^ 
Mat aiaailaa. ^' rvplaea- 

• Koraa woald bava to ba coaaaltad to aacartaia tha imt^ 
thair pre9raa» if it ia nacaaaary ta abip aay aiaaiUt it^Vr^ 
tiea to tba 7S aaatiooad abova. Freearaaaat laad tial <\ *^\'- 
Koraa '• aiaailaa would ba aboot .33 aootha. ^^ raplaea 

• To tba boat of our kaowlad9a« all of O.S. i^ay X-iAina 
with oaita and ahoald aot ba eoaaidarad froa divaraleaV 

- Oait raplacaaant priea of lANi aiaailaa ia aboat I437 y» 
total paeka^a prica for SO weald approaiaata 922. SNi far iaa 
aboat MSN. raekaqa prieaa iaeloda rw aarehargaa. ^"^ 

I-tO> 

• Arvy baa aboat ■HHfOVa (iaelodin 4 



agaiaat a diatribJfloa raqair«aat of abeat^Hjiflr ak«.* ' 

12. too I-TOV aiaailaa ara available ia COSonapo^toeka? 



- taaod aa tba aaahara, tba iapaet oo Aray of abipoi^ • .^ 
Z-10«a iaaodiataly woald ba Mrieaa bat aot iatolarabll bT 

_ aiaailaa oaald bavo to ba Ukaa froa troepa. Baaad aa tbo 
-« aariooaaaaa of tba raqairaaaat, aad kaapiaf ia aiad that »k« Ar.» 
weald raeaiva fOV-ZX raplaeaaaat aiaailaa, it ia likaU tw >>Z^ 
Army weald ralaetaatly aeqaiaaea u laMdiata •hipsaat oftL 
aatira qoaatity. 

- Oait priea of tbo raplaeaaaat TO»-XZ aiaaila ia aboat tis laa. 
total package price weald approaiaata 942M. witb INS tarebarfaa! 

- Delivery froa predoetioa ef fOf-II pay back aiaailaa to tn* 
Aray weald oeear aboat tba bafiaaiaf of CT 19lt. Xf aeceaalrv— 
tboo^b tbia ia aot racoaaandad— appreaiaataly 2.000 oaallantLi 
loa-ZX aiaailaa eeald be delivered froa »Af to Aray i% Ueoad 
qoartar a 1M7. \\v\fs\ iOniririT / Tjf^ 



522 




MSSIIXLXTY POR IMtJiS 

^ I) 2.525 

Th«r« !• DO 90od ««y .U lc««p this project fro* ttltla«t«ly 
btlAf Md« public. relXowlD) «rt thr«« It^al Mtfiodt toq«tb«r 
with • bri«e diteutaioa on tho pcsiibillty of eoapreaiso. 

«> Tho Praaidoat e«n aako a dotorminatioa* Soctloa 114 of to 
tho Poroi^n Moittaneo Act, which would woivo tho ttatuto tAiieh 
roquiraa tho nerval Cooqrosai^nal netifleatioa vindor Soctioa 
}((b) of tho Arva Ispert Control Act (AICA). ^ 

- Proaidont auat act if y tho Spoakaf of tho leaaa and tho 
Chairaan of tho Poroiqa Rolatioas Co«iittoo# provide a written 
justification, and consult with both tb« Chairaaa of tho Portion 
Rolationa CoMiittoo and tho Chairaaa of tho Poroi^o Affair* 
CooMittoo. Thia could bo dono in a elassifiod, closo-hold oannti 
and is tho boot prospect for oliainatiaq looks Croa Con^rossiom 
sources. Bowovor, tho probloa would coas with actually osocuti 

^^ a Lottor of Offor (U3A) for tho aatarial without disclosing to 
2]^tho ontiro Security Aosistanco Coaaunity that tho Prosidont had 
waived tho need for Sectioo 3((b) aotificatioa (loadquartors 
Aray, OSASAC* and NXCOH, all are aware of the lo^al requir^at 
oot to process the bOM without the )d(b) aotificatioa process). 

- The OSO General Ceonsel sheold be asked persoaally to coafits 
that Section (14 is leqal under these circuastaacos, siace thii 
authority never has been ezsreisod in this way. 

- The Presideat coald sifo an saorfoncy aotificatioo uader 
Soctioa 3((b), waivlaq the forvol 30-daf aotificatioa period. 
This requires a certificatiea tbet aa eaerfoacy osists, aad ths 
reasoas therefor. Mbile tbis aotificatioo «eal4 bo classified, 
tho distribotiea of tbo Sectioo 3<(b) aotico is aoeb brooder tU 
woold be troo for tbo Soctioo <14 dotoraiaotioo aoatioaod abovs. 
Additioaolly, tho Soeority Aooistoace Cooaooity woold howo to bt 
iaforaed tbot tbo Preoidoot bod aado tbo saerfoacy doteraiaatiea 
and waived Sectioo M(b) before tbo UM coold bo prepered aad 
isottod. Tboro WDold bo 00 food esplaaotioo ao to wby aa 
saorfooey woold saist for tbis coootry'o porchosiag the aissilst 

• Tho lost eptioo, if tiao permits, woold bo to treat tho sals 
ao o rootiao oaclaseifiod oetioo oader Sectioo M(b). Tbis wosl 
reqalro tbo fell M-doy aotificatioo period (ioelodlof tbo 30-4* 
iaforaol aotico) for Ceofreesioool rowiov. lotb systeao are is 
tbo iaweatory of tbo ceootry iowolvod, oad It lo poeoible that 
the aotificatioo woold flow tbroofb witboot qoeetioo. Tbis 
alaoot cortoialy wooU bo uoo for I-IAMU U tbo qooatlty 
cootaaplatodi tho X-fOM qooatitieo olfbt or aifbt aot cause 
spoeolotloo. 






tjB. ««'-"■ 



iiNr.i!\s^D 



■Ti-O - 



523 



UNCLASSIFIED 



2-i526 



Act. te« prevUlea l«dic«t«t that SI 2ii L. ■■^'* Coatrol 
Aneth«r r«quir«« th« third eJoatrrtTSlS Li*i.**"*^^«»- 
probably can b« ovoreoso or doforrJd "*'*'*' **••• P'ovi.ioa. 



UN^IHED 



524 



m 




m 



C 2709 




5?? 

n o 



—I ri 
rt -1 

1/1 r> 

n u 



SI 



S5e^ 



P«rtal(y Declassffled/Released onOft^tf^ Aft 
under provisions Of fo l23Sfi^^ 



"i^n^sim 



525 



pr 



%y%. 



B 



1088 



15 March 1985 



C 2710 



MEMORANDUM FOR: THE RECORD 

SUBJECT: Breakfast with Secretary ,»nd Deputy 

Secretary of Defense, 15 March 1905 



- 4t 



?i 



^^•:::^^'' 






.£18^ 



yit55 



wwjsm 



t,fl,.,.:;-. 26/i7 



526 




C 2711 



7. Question of the support to the Contras cane up. The Director 
noted that we should have another meeting on it but following last week's 
meeting of the LSG we tended to be leaning towards non-lethal aid. I 
described the assignment given to Motley to develop different options 
which could be packaged and tnen played against Senators Lugar and 
Ourenberger to see what continatlon of options in a single package sight 
be acceptable to Congress. But 1 noted at the meeting that there was no 
agreement that we would be United to non-lethal aid. The Director said 
that HcFarlane was to meet with Lugar and O urenberger today. In closing 
th^Secretary that he heard thdtHH^H^PHIHlHI^I 

^H^H^^<^ earmarked $25 fflilllon for the Contras in $G oilTioi^^^^^ 
increment* 



^ ^,/ohn N. McHahon 



001 

000 
-CA/ODCI 

EA/OCI 

Exec. Sec-. 
Exec. Registry 



)3a^ 



iinmim 



^^JM 






527 



AJo Ded<. 



UNCUSSIFI 

..At [J^ 





rt 






2lS^^ 



OXL 



OfFlCf OF THI ASW8TANT SfCHtTAHY Of OCFCNSC 
INTIMaTIONAl. MCUMTV JkfPum 
HMMN 



MIMO^OM. 






:3^ 











<lk^ ^N^ "V^^^^Xs w^^aV •<>-t' >«»-^ 
















528 




SUBJE 



D 83 



Ou««tion« and Anivtrs for th« Record from Secretary 
of Defense Testimony Before the House Permanent 
Select Committee on Intelligence, 18 December 1986 (U) 







1. The Committee requests a copy of the Army Inspector General/ 
General Counsel report on their Investigation of the pricing of 
TOW missiles transferred to the CIA. 

A I (U) Upon completion of the report, a copy will be provided 

to the Committee. 

2. The Committee requests a copy of the Secretary of Defense 
memorandum and marginal notes on the Draft NSDO of June 198S 

At (U) These are provided at TAB A. 

3. Was the basic TOW sold to any other country in the last 
two or three years? 

Ai (C) Yee. Prom FY 1983 to FY 1986, basic TOW was s$>ld to- 

the following countries (quantities in parentheses)! 

Kenya^^^H Korea^^^H Morocco^H^^H Somalia| 

and Thailandl 

4. Did General Secord have any kind of Consultant contract, 
or other relationship or post, with the Department of Defense 
after his retirement? 

Ai (U) Yee. Pollowing hie retirement on 1 May 1983, HG 

Secord was approved as a consultant appointee for the 

Office of the Aeeietant Secretary of Defense (International 

Security Affairs), specifically for the Near B&stern and 

South Aaian Affairs Region. Effective 11 July 1983, MG 

Secord was authorised 130 daye at a rate of $242.00 per 

day, but he did not eerve any days in a pay statue. On 11 

July 1984, MO Secord waa again approved as a consultant 

appointee and authorized 90 daye at a rate of $242.00 per 

day, but he did not eArve ^av ^aira^iJl.A A«X status. HG 



m^^ 



>LS VIA COMIMT CHANNELS 



529 




^nt 



D 84 



S«cord'i •ppointncnt wtt t«rmln«t«d on 10 July 198S. On S 

August 196S MO S«cord wai appointed ■• a consultant without 

eo8V«nsation for up to tsn days. This appointasnt was 

tarminatsd on 4 August 1986, .and th« Dspartasnt has no 

record of his having b««n on a duty status on this appointment, 

with ths following sicsption. On S August 198S, MG Sscord 

was appointed as a consultant, without coopensation, to 

the Special Operations Policy Advisory Group (SOPAG). His 

tern on the SOPAG expired effective 4 August 1986. During 

this one-year term, MG Secord participated in one meeting 

of the SOPAG, on IS Movember 1985. He has not participated - 

since, and this is the last consulting activity in which 

he participated, according to OApartment records. Pertinent 

documentation is enclosed at TAB B. 

5. Was General Secord dropped from one of our coanaittees for 
failing to execute a financial statement? 

At (U) MG Secord se?v«d on the Special Operations Policy 

Advisory Group (SOPAG) fro« January 1984 to August 1986, 

although he last participated in Hovemiber 198S. MO Secord 's 

membership oa thm 80PA0 was terminated, effective 4 August 

1986, b«sed upon his failure to provide the Department 

with financial information (as required in form ST 15S5). 

Amplifying information Is enclosed at TAB C. 

6. Have any TMS or other arms sales by the Department been 
made to any 'agents or mlddlemon' as opposed directly to a 
recipient country? 

A I (u) No PM8 or other arms sales to foreign countries 

have been made by the Department through a private agent 



vmamn 



530 



MCHAMO V. SCCORO CONSULTANT HISTORY OSO • POUCY 



UNCIASSIFIEO 



D 101 



Oatt of Appointment 


Offica 


Days 
Approvad 


Salary 
par Day 


lnit^lAppt-^7-11-t3 


ISA/IO/NESA 


130 


S242.00 


Rtn«wal«ff~07-11-«4 


ISA/10/NESA 


90 


S242.00 


Tormination tff -07-10^5 


iSA/lO/NCSA 






Appt to S0PA6* tff -t-s-as 


ISA/SP 


10 


woe 


Appointmant axpirad t-4-86 - 
Raqutst to ranaw app fwdad 
toParsonnalS-ll-M 








Tarmination 52 fwdad to 
Nnonnal 10-23-W 
w/raquastad aff data of t-S- 
M. basad on Sacpids rafusal 
toprovldaSFISSS 









*Spa<ial Oparationt Poliqf Advisory Group 






■'^ 5 




531 



UNCIASSIRED — 

ORIGINAL 



OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PkOCEEDINGS 
BEFORE THE 

HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 



j^O CQttMQ-J Of ^ rn pi£s 



SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 



CASE No. 



In the Matter of : 

COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

-AND- 

SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO 

IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION. 



(Deposition of the Honorable D. LOWELL JENSEN) 




„^ S«i Francisco, Ca. P«rtIaBir Dedtssffted/Reteised on ^"/^- 



under provisions of E.O. 12356 
n^ 7-6-87 by N. Msnan, Nationa/ Security Council 

UNCIASSIHED --^^^ 

D k D REPORTING SERVICE 

(Notary PoHle: Calfanto) 
10573 HOLLY SnEET, RANCHO CUCAMONCA. CAUF. 9ITOI-53II 



532 



O. LOWCU. JINSCN 



UNCLASSIFIED 

UNrrco States District Court 

No«TMC«M OismcT or OureaNiA 
Sam Fiwnciaca CjturomuA 94102 



July 27, 2987 



Corrtctlona 

Pag* 9 Line 8 Ellalnat* 'txacc dele' 

Page 28 Line 19 "I could give" should be "I could not give" 

Page 45 Line 20 "I agree" should be "I agreed" 

Page 48 Line 25 "chink It" should be "chink I" 

Page 59 Line 6 "a proper" should be "improper" 

Page 66 Line 6 "recall noc" should be "recall oo" 

Page 70 Line 10 "perhapa recum" should be "perhaps recum ing " 



yWx^^koc — . 



D. Lowell Jensen 
United States District Judge 



Partially Declassified/Released on 



l^/^'^S 



under provisions of E.O. 12356 
by N. Menan, National Security Council 



wussra 



533 



8 



UNCLASSIRED 



1 BEFORE THE 

2 HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

TO 

3 ' INVESTIGATE COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN 

4 AND 

5 SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 

ON 

6 SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 

TO 

7 IRAN AND. THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 



9 DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF 

10 HONORABLE D. LOWELL JENSEN 

11 

12 BE IT REMEMBERED t^aCi pursuant agreemanc, 

,3 and on Monday, the 6th day of July 1987, commencing at the 

14 hour of 9:30 a.m. thereof, in Courtroom 3, United States 

15 Court House and Federal Building, 450 Golden Gate Avenue, 
ig San Francisco, California, before me, JAMES W. HIGGINS, 
17 Notary Public in and for the City and County of San 

.18 Francisco, State of California, personally appeared 

19 HONORABLE 0. LOWELL JENSEN 

20 called as a witness by the Select Committees who, being by 

21 ■• first duly sworn, was thereupon examined and 

22 interrogated as hereinafter set forth. 

23 /_ j< , i f 

Partially Declassified/Released on 1 — '. 2_2_ 

24 under provisions of E.O. 12356 

by N. Menian, National Security Council 

25 



UNCLASSIFIED 



534 



KNMSm 



1 

2 
3 

4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
•18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UNITED STATES SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE ON 
SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN 
OPPOSITION, repfes«nt«d tjy W. THOMAS MC GOUGH, JR., 
ESQUIRE, appeared as counsel on behalf o£ the Selecc 
Conraiccee. 

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES SELECT COMMITTEE TO 
INVESTIGATE COVERT ARMS TRANSACTIONS WITH IRAN, represented 
Dy ROBERT W. GENZMAN, ESQUIRE, appeared as counsel of 
behalf of the Selecc Commitcee. 

UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, 
represented by THOMAS S. BOYD, ESQUIRE, appeared as counsel 
on behalf of the deponent and the rOepartment of Justice. 



oOo 



icussra 



535 





UNCUS^im 


3 


1 


CONTENTS 




2 


WITNESS: 


PAGE 


3 


HONORABLE 0. LOWELL JENSEN 




4 

5 


Examination by Comaiicce* Represencacives 


5 

1 

1 
1 


6 

7 
8 


EXHIBITS 




9 


DEPOSITION'S 


IDENTIFIED 


10 


No. 1 


18 


11 


No. 2 


22 


12 


NO. 3 , 


50 


13 




1 


14 




1 


15 






16 






17 






18 






19 






20 






21 






22 






23 






24 






25 


UNCLASSIFIED 





536 



mmm 



1 

2 

3 

4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 

15 
16 
17 
■18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



DEPOSITION 

9 : 30 a.m. 
Whereupon / 

HONORABLE D. LOWELL JENSEN 
was called as a witness by the Commictees/ being duly sworn 
by the Notary Public to tell the truth, the whole truth, 
and nothing but the truth, testified as follows: 

MR. MC GOUGH: Good morning. Judge Jensen. I 
am associate counsel with the Senate Select Committee on 
Iran. Seated to my lett,'i3 Bob Genzman who is-- 

MR. GENZMAN: Associate minority counsel for 
cii« House Committee. , 

MR. MC GOUGH: If Mr. Boyd would introduce 
himself and indicate who he represents here this morning. 

MR. BOYD: My name is Thomas M. Boyd. I am 
deputy assistant attorney general for the Department of 
Justice. I am representing Judge Jensen in his capacity as 
a former employee of the Department during the time in 
which is relevant to the inquiry of the Congressional 
Couictee. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Thank you, Mr. Boyd. 

Judge Jensen, obviously, is there is any 
question that I ask that you don't understand, just stop me 
and ask me to clarify. I will be happy to do it. 
// 



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EXAMINATION 
By MR. HC GOUGH: 

Q Let us start by getting a little bit of 

baciiground. Could you tell me when you joined the United 
States Department of Justice? 

A Came to the Department of Justice in April 

1981 as Assistant Attorney General in charge of the 
Criminal Division. 

Q Let me back up a moment. What were you doing 

immediately prior to joining the Department of Justice? 

A Immediately before that I was the District 

Attorney of Alameda County, California. I had been the 
district attorney there for sometime. 

Q And you were Assistant Attorney General for 

the Criminal Division from approximately April 1961 until 
approximately Nay 1983? 

A That is correct. Then, I became Associate 

Attorney General. 

Q Let us stop for a moment. Can you tell me 

about your responsibilities* over what portions of the 
Dcpartaenc of Justice you had supervisory authority when 
you were Assistant Attorney Ganecal? 

A The Criminal Division is one of the 

litigating divisions. I had direct supervision and 
responsibility for that. The Criminal Division has a 



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vaci«cy ot relacionships co> basically/ U. S. Accorneys 

i 
that are supervisory. So that I the responsibility with 1 

criminal matters bef.ore the Department with U. S | 

Attorneys. There is no direct supervision within the other j 

components ot the Department of Justice. 1 

Q To whom did you report as Assistant Attorney | 

I 
General? __ \ 

A I reported to the Associate Attorney General, 

the Deputy, and the Attorney General. The chain basically, 
in terms o£ criminal, would be from the Attorney Gieneral to 
the Deputy, to the Associate, to the Criminal Division, to 
the 0. S. Attorney. So I thei\ reported to the Rudy 
Guiliani . 

Q I believe you said that you said you became 

Associate Attorney General in May 19837 

A That is correct. 

Q Tell me what your responsibility was in that 

position at Chat point? 

A The Department had been constructed in such a 

way that criminal components of the Department reported 
through th« Associate to the Deputy and to the Attorney 
General. So, my responsibilities at that point would be 
broader and would include U. S. Attorneys and their 
criminal activities, as well as relationships to the 
criminal investigative components of the Department. 



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Q Would your reaponsibilicies, in one form or 

another/ all be related to criminal work? 

A tea, they would be. The basic functional 

distinction was between civil and criminal/ although there 
IS somewhat o£ an overlap. But the basic tunctionai 
distinction and the responsibilities with the Associate 
would be referenced to the criminal activities ot the 
Department . 

Q And/ during your tenure as Associate Attorney 

General/ did you report to Che Deputy Attorney General? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q I believe you were Associate Attorney General 

to approximately April 1985: is that correct? 

A That is correct. Although it would be a 

little bit before that. That is correct/ but I was also 
Acting Deputy Attorney General. When Ed Neese came to be 
the Attorney General/ at that point the previous Deputy 
Attorney General had gone; and/ so. I served in both 
capacities. 

Q Approximately what time was that? 

A That would be from about February. March 1985 

on. 

Q What were your responsibilities as Deputy 



Attorney General? 



As the Deputy -- which is the Ho. 2 position 



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in ch« 0«paccn«nC, as you )(now. Th« 0*pucy has supsrviaion 
and casponsiDxlicy for ail of chfl funccional activitivs ot 
cn« D«parcffl«nc. Ail of ch« componanta report through c^ 
Deputy to the Attorney Generai. The Deputy serves as th^ 
Attorney General in his absence. 

Q I wouid assume that, as Deputy, you reported 

directly to the Attorney General? 

A That IS correct. 

Q In any of the positions, be it Assistant, 

Associate of Deputy Attorney General, did you ever attend 
National Security Council meetings? 

A No; I never did. , 

Q What was your first contact with Colonel 

Oliver North of the National Security Council, if you 
remember? 

A I believe that it would have been at the time 

when I was in the Criminal Division, or about the time I 
became Associate. I think that the first time I recall was 
with reference to the formulation of some National Security 
Directives that were being developed, and there was an 
is«u« of review by the Department of Justice in teras of 
its impact upon the Department. 

Q Mere those National Security Directives 

related to either Central America or Iran? 

A No, they were not. They were general, with 



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r«C*c«nc« CO ctie r eaponsibilicy of the Oeparcnenc, i 
beli«v«, in cerms o£ the intelligence investigations. 

Q Did you serve on any woclcing groups, c 

subgroups, or interagency groups with Colonel North? 

A Yes, I did. There were a series of groups 

that had to do with I thinX the terrorists incidents group 
and a group that they reported to. I don't recall the 
exact title exact titles of these groups. But, in that 
chain, they were essentially related to operational 
responsibilities of terrorist incidents, and I served on 
Chose groups. 

I also was on the advisory coninittee that 
dealt with the issue of, for the Vice President, of coming 
up with policy with reference to terrorism. 

Q And Colonel North served on that, as well? 

A In his capacity as member of NSC. 

Q In the groups that you had in common, 

approximately how often would you meet with Colonel North? 

A These were not regular meetings, I think. 

Htiils we were doing the work on the Vice President's cask 
fore*/ there were a series of meetings; and I would maybe a 
monthly baaia for awhile until it was completed. There 
were more frequent meetings when we were dealing with 
actual terrorise incidents. But, other than that, there 
were virtually no contact. 



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And seccing aside for a nom«nc an incidenc, 

or an episode, where the Accorney General and Colonel Norcn 
and a docutnenc relating, to Iranian Iniciacivei did you have 
any contact, other contact, with Colonel North regarding 
either Iran or Central America? 

A No, I did not. 

Q I li)ce would liJcc to discuss for a few 

moments the standard procedure at the Department of Justice 
for national security or intelligence findings and, 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H if start 

findings. What, if any, contact or consultation would the 
Department of Justice have on inc^Ulgcnce findings? 

A There would be contacts through the NSC 

structure. The Attorney General was a member of the NSC. 
So that would oe our relationship to the final decision 
making process on that. If there were issues where the 
Department of Justice would look at at, it might be looked 
at by the components that might be interested in it. It 
may have been through -- I would have had an interest where 
Che criminal division may have been an investigative 
responslbilicy. It may have been through the intelligence 
policy portion of the Department. 

Q The Atcornay General sac as a member of the 

National Security Council. Nas there a formal mechanism 
for review of findings by che Department of Justice? 



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A I don't know if tnere was a formal. it would 

depend upon, in effect, wnat the circumstances were. 

Q Do you know it the Department of justice 

reviewed each intelligence finding that was issued? 

A I don't know that that is so. 

Q Was there an Associate or an Assistant 

Attorney General for intelligence policy? 

A Yes. 

Q To whoo did he or she repocc? 

A Basically/ the assistant in charge was Hary 

Lawton during the time when I was there as Associate, of 
Deputy. And, basically, that Jcind of office reports 
directly to the Attorney General. But, by definition, 
since the Deputy is in that administrative responsibility, 
they reported through the Deputy to the Attorney General. 

Q And what generally were the responsibilities 

of the Assistant Attorney General for Intelligence Policy? 

A In the whole area of the responsibilities of 

the Department that might be related to intelligence 
activities of the Department's investigative or prosecutive 




UNCLASSiriED 



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Q The intelligence policy review, I assume, 

would ta)(e place ac the level of Assistant Attorney General 
for Intelligence Policy? 

A Or one of the nenbers of that particular 

office. There were maybe two or three persons who 
specialized in that area within that office. 




did you first have any contact with intelligence findings? 

A I can't make a specific reference to that. I 

don't Know of any specific instance. I would have to -- 
perhaps if there-- 

Q Let me qualify that question. I wasn't 

looking for a date so ouch, as what position you occupied. 

A I could have been at the Associate level. 



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Q Can you give me an escimace o£ a ppr oxitna teiy 

now many intelligence findings you might have had contact 
with at that time? 

A It could not tse very many. No more than one 

or two, I would think. I don't really have any 

recollection of more than that. 

Q I am going to asK you about some specific 

subject matters of inteUigence findings. And, ray question 
to each of them will be whether you ever reviewed any, or 
were familiar with any findings relating to the subjects, 
first being Iran. 

Did you ever review, or were you familiar 
with, any findings involved in Iran? 

A Not specifically with reference to findings, 

no . 

Q We could qualify that with the one episode 

that we referred to? 

A That is correct. I made a reference to that. 
I believe that that -- I saw a document with reference to 
that subject matter, but I don't recaU that that was a 
finding. 

Q Other than that document, do you recaU any 
inteUigence finding or docuaents relating to Iran? 

A No, I don't. 

Q How about Central America, and contact with 



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tindinga In that area? 

A No. 

Q Do you ever recall having any contact with, 

or hearing about> a tinding involving the Drug Entorcement 
Adminiatration? 

A I recall the subject matter of DEA and 

hostagesi and the ^passage of in tor mation ; but I don't 
recall seeing or being involved with a specific finding 
with reference to that. 

Q We will talk a little loore about the DEA- 

hostage incident in a few ninuCea. But> in the context, of 
Che discuasion of the DEA« do you, recall any diacussion of 
a finding or a need for a finding? 

A No; I don't know Chat I do. 

Q Do you ever recall aeeing or being involved 

with, or learning abouc> a finding chat might have been 
retroaccive, Chac is> a finding that followed an 
incelligenc* accivity? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Do you ever recall diacuasiona involving/ or 

hav* you ever been involved with a finding that waa oral, 
as opposed to wriccen? 

A No. 

Q Do you ever recall dlscuaaing or being 

involved wich a finding chac called for a delayed, or delay 



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m nocic«, to Congress? 

A I don't recall such. 

Q Let us tdlk about your contact with^^^^| 

HH|^^^^Hft if we could. believe you said you 

you might have tirst -- let me back up a moment. 

In which of your positions would you first 
have come in contact with^^^^^H 

A As Deputy Attorney General. I was aware at 

the Associate level that there was such an activityi out I 
did not have a direct responsibility with reference to 
that. But< in those instances where Che Attorney General 
was not in Washington, I would b*^ Acting Attorney General 

the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^H would me 

capaci ty; and I would review and act as Attorney General on 
those 

Q 




A Well/ over the period of time when X was 

Deputy/ I oust have handled maybe^^Bof them. 

Q During that period of time, did you have any 

contact with, or ever learn about findings that related to 



A If it was] 

I may have had some- 



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2S 



IINRUSSIFIED 



16 




e of that, you don't recall any? 



Q 




operacional groups Chac I nave tallied about. But I did not 
tiavtt any direct involvenent in that. But I know tnat there 
were discussions about that. 

Q Were you ever contacted by anyone outside of 

the Department -- baclt up, strike that. 

Were you ever contacted by anyone with the 



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raquvsc to expedxce a signacure on a tinding, or approval 
of a finding? 

A No; I don't recall any 3uch. 

Q Never contacted by Colonel North or Dy Mr. 

Allen of the CIA? 

A I don't recall such. 

Q I would like to shift, if I could, to what 

has become known as the Iranian Initiative. I believe, 
when we spoke before, you indicated that you recalled a 
meeting with the Attorney General and Colonel Oliver North 
in which you reviewed a certain document in the Attorney 
General's office? , 

A That IS correct. 

Q Up until that meeting, had you had any 

contact with the Iranian initiative, and, by that, attempts 
to improve relations with Iran, or strengthen moderates, or 
free hostages by the sale of arms or other goods? 

A No: I had not. 

Q Do you recall how that meeting came about? 

A No; I don't know how it was scheduled. 

b«ll«v« that I was asked, or the notice came down, to my 
knowledge, from the Attorney General's office to come up 
to such a meeting. 

HR. HC GOUGH: Ha have been provided, via Mr. 
Bolton's office, with what I am going to have marked as 



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Oepoaicion Cxnibic l. 

(The docunenc reterred co was 
marl^ed Deposicion Exhibit No. 
1 tor identification.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Judge Jensen/ do you recognize Exhibit 1? 

(The document was prottered to the witness.) 

A That IS a part ot the logbooks that were Icept 

by my office as to meetings that I attended. 

Q This would have been your own calendar? 

A That 13 correct. 

Q For the date January 6, 19867 

A That is correct. 

Q Who would have made the entry on this? 

A My secretary would have done that. 

Q Did she malce the entries, was there a 

practice o£ mailing entries in advance of meetings, or after 
meetings, or both? 

A In most instances, before; in some instances. 

It would be after. X would think that, in the regular 
course of business, it would be before; and, on occasion, 
some of these meetings would be canceled, so there would be 
a notation to me that the meeting did not cake place. That 
sort of thing. 

Q If this particular meeting had been canceled. 



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what would you cxpacc co 9««7 

A Son* indication that ic had not taken plac*. 

Q Now this. 13 Honday. January 6, 1986, a- 

3:35, I b«li«v«? 

A Apparently so. 

Q Or som* tin* after, between 3:30 and 4:00 

o'clock, and it list *A0G, AG and 0. North.' That would be 
the Attorney General and Oliver North. And would AOG be 
Office of Attorney General? 

A Yes, it would be. 

Q To the best of your recollection, was thi4 a 

meeting to which you were referring to earlier? 

A This is -- when we talked about this before, 

I did not know the specific date. I have only been -- When 
we looked at the logs, as far as I could see, this would be 
the meeting. 

Q Do you ever recall any other occasions where 

you have oet with Colonel North and the Attorney General? 

A No; I don't recall any other occasion. 

Q Looking at your calendar, can you recall how 

tar in advance this meeting was scheduled? 

A No, I can't. 

Q Could you? Is there any way to derive that 

from the calendar by the way the calendar was kept? 

A No; the calendar would not indicate that. 



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Q Can you tell us, can we -- we may or may not 

be able to infer -- can we infer from this that thxs 
meeting waa preac hed uled/ that is, it one was where you 
were asKed to cone up to the Attorney General's office, or 
there was meeting scheduled with the Attorney General and 
Oliver North? 

A It was. I would think it was prescheduled. 

The difficulty with that being that it could have been 
prescheduled that day. 

Q I guess what I am to distinguish is, you 

being in the Attorney General's office when Oliver North 
happened to stop by? ^ 

A I think that there was North scheduled in the 

sense that my secretary made a note of the fact that I 
should be there for that purpose; and at what time it 
became operational, I don't know. 

Q Can you tell me what occurred at that 

meeting, as best you can recall? 

A The meeting was because Hr. North provided a 

typewritten paper, either a page or two pages, and that was 
the first time that I had seen anything that described the 
issue of passage oC arms to Iran. 

Q Do you recall what, if anything. Colonel 

North said when he presented the paper? 

A I don't believe he said anything; just 



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21 


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presented cne 


paper. j 


2 


Q 


Let us talk about the paper tor a moment. | 


3 


What do you recall aOout it? 


4 


A 


I recall it was a typewritten document wicn 


5 


that subject 


matter. j 


6 


Q 


Do you recall what kind of paper it was on? , 


7 


A 


No, I don't. 1 

1 


8 


Q 


1 
Was it on White House stationery? ' 


9 


A 


It could have been; I don't know that it had I 


10 


any designation as such. i 


11 


Q 


It referred, I believe you said, to arm sales 


12 


to Iran? 


» 


13 


A 


That is correct. 


14 


Q 


Did It refer to the involvement of any third | 


15 


country? 




16 


A 


I believe it had a reference to the fact that 


17 


the passage 


of the arms would be accomplished through 


18 


Israeli participation. 


19 


Q 


Did it describe the arms at all? 


20 


A 


I believe it described it as missiles, but I 


21 


don't know that I could recall any further description, as 

1 


22 


to what kind 




23 


Q 


Do you recall whether they were TOW Missiles, 


24 


or HAWK MissUea or SIDEWINDER Missiles? 


25 


A 


I guess TOW, more likely in my recollection 

UNCLASSIFIED 



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Chan any other description. ' 

Q Do you recall whether it appeared to be a | 

£inal document or a draft? i 

A I don't Icnow that I could say. But I thinle | 

probably my recollection would be in teraa of a draft, but I ! 

I 

don't know that I could pinpoint that. 



Do you recall whether there was a signature 



line? 



A No, I don't. 

Q Or a place for a signature? 

A I don't. 

MR. MC GOUGH: I woul^ like to have this marked 
as Deposition Exhibit No. 2. 

(Tit* docuaent referred to was 
marked Deposition Exhibit No. 
2 for idanCification.) 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Judge Jensen, let me show you what has been 

marked as Deposition Exhibit 2. This is an unclassified, or 
a declasaiCied, document which has already been introduced 
during the hearings as Sporkin Exhibit 10. 

What I would like you to do — and let me just 
say that the way I went about this was: having been informed 
of the date of the meeting, I tried to pull the documents 
that we had in our possession chat were dated in or around 



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January 6. What I would like you to do is to take a look at 
Deposition Exhibit 2 and see if this -- let me Dack up -- or 
a portion ot thiS/ or all of it/ may be what you saw on 
January 6. 

(The document was proffered to the witness.) 

A (After a pause. ) I have looked at the 

papers, counsel. I may have seen a portion ot it. 

Q Can you identify what portion? 

A The first page, and I guess the best way to 

describe it would be by this nunber; is that right? 

Q Yes. Well, there is a classification cover 

sheet . 

A I recall seeing that. I don't recall that I 

had any knowledge ot the contents of the description there. 
I don't believe that I saw this at all. 

Q When you say "this," are you referring to 

1249? 

A That is correct. 

Q Would you repeat again what you said about 

1249/ you may have seen it? 

A No; I don't believe that I did. 

Q All right. 

A I think that I may have seen the remaining 

pages, 1251, 1252, 1254: 1253 is blank? 

Q That was a page that was Tab A and said 1253/ 



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then 1254. 

A This is consisCenc with the materials that I 

saw. 

Q You say "consistent with"? 

A In teras of the subject matter. 

Q Is it consistent/ as best you can recall, with 

the format of what you saw? 

A I believe so. 

Q That is a cover memorandum, and this is really 

the pages, 1251 through 1254? 

A That is correct. 

Q That is broken down^into two parts: a cover 

memorandum/ and a finding at the end. Does this refresh 
your recollection, or look more familiar? 

A It does look/ and I don't know that I could 

say that, with some further recollection/ that this is the 
specific document. But, as I say, it is certainly 
consistent with what I described before, what I recall. 

Q Do you recall a finding being attached, that 

iSi a proposed finding, like the one at 1254? 

A It may very well have been. 

Q Now you have taken a moment to read, and I 

apologize for the quality of the copy. We had to work with 
what we get. But, you have taken a moment to read it. 
Substantively -- let us refer first to 1251 and 1252. 



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Substantively, does that correspond with your recollection? 

A yes, It does. 

Q Was there anything -- I don't want to tafee it 

any more specifically than you can get; but, was there 
anything in pages 1251 and 1252 that you did not believe you 
received in the meeting with Mr. Meese and Colonel North 
trotn the documents that you reviewed? 

A Well, just briefly looking through it, I don't 

Icnow that I could say that. 

Q Looking at page 12S2> at the bottom, there is 

a recommendation portion. Do you recall whether that was on 
the document you saw, or not? ^ 

A No; I don't recall. 

Q But, to the best of your recollection, what 

you saw was something other than just a plain finding, like 
page 1254? 

A I believe so. 

Q Now, having reviewed that document, can you 

recall anything more about the discussions that took place 
in that meeting, or how the document was presented? 

A ic was simply presented and I took it for 

inforaational purposes. 

Q Has there any discussion between, that you can 

recall, between Colonel North and Attorney General about the 



document? 



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A No; Chece was no colloquy abouC Che document. ' 

i 

Q Did Che Accorney General pass che documenc co I 

you ac some point in cine? 

A Yes, I read ic. 

Q Do you recall receiving any instr uccions, or 

did you know why you were reading ic? : 

A No; accually, I cook ic as being made aware of ' 

Che face chac chis was a development. As I poinced out, 
from cine co cime, I would serve as ACtorney General. ic 
was pare of our regular praccice co know ac least chat 
information, and I would give ic co Che Accorney Generat^. Hie 
would do Che same Ching so chac we were basically aware of 
whac was in existence. 

Q Do you know why you were asked to attend this 

meeting? 

A No ; I have no specific reason for it. But, as 

I say. It would be the normal course of business for me to 
be at such a meeting so that I would be aware of 
davelopmenta. 

Q Did you and the ACtorney General, either m i 

Colonel North's presence or after -- first of all, how long 
did the meeting -- how long was Colonel North present? 

A It was very short, no more than 15, 20 

minutes, I believe. 

Q Did the Attorney General give Colonel North 



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any xnstcuctions. oc say anything aBout th« documenc that 
you can r«call? 

A No, no ln3tr uctiona. 

Q Did he approve the document? 

A No: there was no activity talien with reference 

to the document then. 

Q Was the Attorney General asked for an opinion 

about the document, or did he express an opinion about it? 

A No: simply that it was presented. 

Q Either while Colonel North was there, or after 

he lett, or, for that matter, at any other time, did. you 
discuss that document with the Atto^rney General? 

A After he left, we simply discussed the fact 

that it had taken place. But that was the last time I 
discussed that topic with the Attorney General. 

Q What did you discuss about the fact? 

A Simply that it had talien place: as I say, it 

was informational. 

Q Did you find it surprising that the NSC, or 

aoaeone, was proposing arms sales to Iran? 

A I think that I did, just in terms of the fact 

that it was taking place. 

Q Did you discuss that with the Attorney 

General? 

A I think we probably did. I don't recall 



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■ ~"^M^^mw9 H.U 28 


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9p«citicaily, buc it was the first cime I had heard about 


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chat and it was obviously a new and different development. 


3 


BY MR. GENZMAN: \ 


A 


Q I will ask you to just describe what you mean 


5 


1 
when you say it had talcen place? 


6 


A The fact that there was such information that 


7 


had been brought to my attention. 


8 


BY- MR, MC GOUGH: j 

1 


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Q Were you aware/ from your conversation or 


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meeting with Colonel Notth, or afterwards, whether this 


11 


document was being presented in anticipation of that 


12 


activity? 


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A I don't know that I was aware; it appeared so. ! 

1 


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Q Was there any discussion of prior transactions 


15 


With Iran? j 


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A No, there was not. 


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Q In your discussions with the Attorney General, 


18 


did it appear that he was learning of it for the first time? 


19 


A I don't know that. I could give you an 


20 


opinion about what he was learning, or what his reaction, or 


21 


what his state of knowledge was. I simply don't know. 


22 


Q Did he indicate to you whether or not he had 


23 


had any prior discussions involving the Iranian initiative? 


24 


A No, he did not. 


25 


1 
Q Did he indicate to you that a decision had, in 

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facC/ been made co sell arms Co Iran? 

A No; I don't chinlc that it was. Not a specific 

discussion with reference co that. It appeared as though 
this was at a point where it either had or would be. 
BY NR. GENZMAN: 

Q Do you recall hoy long you spoke to the 

Attorney General after Colonel North had left? 

A A short period of tioe. 

BY MR. HC GOUGH: 

Q Five or ten' minutes. 

A No more than that, certainly. 

Q Did you discuss with^ the Attorney General the 

relative merits or demerits of selling arms to Iran? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall a discussion of American 

hostages? 

A I was looking at page 1252 and there is a 

portion of a discussion there. And, frankly, X don't have 
any recollection of that, and I don't know. This may 
indicate/ perhaps, X had not seen this document because I 
don'c have a recollection of discussing that. 

Q Of discussing the hostages? 

A Yea: chat is correct, with relationship to 

this. 

Q Do you recall discussions of moderate elements 



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in Iran? 

A Yes/ I chink so. 

Q And you recall discussions, or you recall 

seexng in cne docunenc, something about Israel being 
involved? 

A Yes, I believe so. 

Q Do you recall any reference in the document/ 

or discussion of/ the statutory authority under which that 
arms sale would taKe place? 

A I believe there was a reference, but I don't 

recall the specifics. 

Q You say a reference^ there is a reference in 

1251 to the Arms Export Control Act. 

A Yes: that may be -- I would say Chat is 

consistent with my recollection. 

Q Do you recall discussing any requirement of 

Congressional notification? 

A No; I don't recall any specific discussion to 

that effect. 

Q Do you recall any discussion of the relative 

■•rits or demerits of conducting the transaction under the 
Arms Export Control Act, as opposed to the Economy Act/ or 
the National Security Act? 

A No; there was no discussion like that. 

MR. GENZMAN: Allow me to get in another 



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qucscion while you are reviewing che document. 
BY MR. GCNZMAN: 

Q You may have answered this, but i did noc hear 

ic it you did. Do you recall whether there was any 
discussion with the Attorney General about the subject 
matter before Colonel North arrived? 

A No, there was not? 

A Do you recall whether Colonel North was 

already present by the time you arrived at this meeting? 

A I don't, but X don't thinlc that he was. i 

think, characteristically, most of the instances where there 
were meetings, I would go up apd be with the Attorney 
General; then, whoever it was, would come to the meeting. i 
believe that happened here. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Did you discuss, do you recall discussing the 

respective roles, or the proposed roles for the CIA or 
Department of Defense, or NSC, in the initiative? 

A No discussion of that nature. 

Q Did you take any notes at the meeting? 

A No, I did not. 

Q Do you know if the Attorney General took any 

notes? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q Do you recall whether Colonel North left a 



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copy of Che document? 

A I believe he did not. | 

Q You Deixeve he took the copy with hioi, a copy 

o£ the document with him? , 

A Yes, he did. 

BY MR. GENZMAN: 

i 

Q Were any marKs made on the document by any o£ ] 

the participants in the meeting? 

A No; I don't believe so. { 

BY MR. MC GOUGH: } 

I 
Q Were there any discussions as to who should be | 

advised of the document, or shown ^the document, prior to its 

submission to the President? I 

A No; I don't believe there were. | 

Q Were you asked to give any input on the 

decision? 

A No; there was no description of further 

activity. 

Q And you were not asked to do anything, or to 

render an opinion on anything? 

A That is correct. 

BY MR. GBNZHAN: 

Q Were any other participants asked to do 

anything more with regard to the document? 

A No. 



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BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q And, to the beat of your recollection, you 

never discussed the Iranian initiative with the Attorney 
General again? 

A That is correct. 

Q Until perhaps after? 

A Until atter the entire matter-- 

Q --became public? 

A Became public, that's right. 

Q Do you recaiU whether there was any discussion 

of Admiral Poindexter attending the meeting that afternoon? 

A No, there wasn't. ^ 

Q Was there any reference made to Admiral 

Poindexter in the meeting that you can recall? 

A No discussion of that. 

Q Was there any discussion, or were you ever 

made aware, of who had seen or drafted, or approved, the 
document that you saw? 

A No, other than the document itself. 

Q Can you recall anything further about your 

discussions with the Attorney General or Colonel North? 

A I cannot. 

Q On this topic? 

A Not at this moment. 

MR. NC GOUGH: I am going to turn to the 



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suD]ect o£ DEA. If you have any questions on this suDject, 
maybe we ought to clean them up now. 

MR. GENZMAM: I have nothing further on that. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Let us shift gears for a moment/ Judge Jensen, 

and talk about the Drug Enforcement Administration 
involvement with hostage location and rescue. First of all, 
some general questions: 

Can you state for the record how the Drug 
Enforcement Administr a Cion fits into the Department of 
Justice? 

A Since a decision fc^m Attorney General Smith 

had the DEA report through Director Webster of the FBI, it 
has had a relationship to the Department where DEA has 
specifically defined roles with reference to their 
investigative responsibilities. But they report through the 
Director of the FBI to the Attorney General. In essence, 
then, the FBI reports to the Deputy and the Attorney General 
and does not go through -- it is the way the organizational 
chart IS set up -- directly through the Associate, for 
•xanple. But there is a relationship there in terms of 
crlalnal reaponsibllities. But DEA reports through the FBI, 
is what the answer ia basically. 

Q And the FBI reports through the Deputy to the 



Attorney General? 



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A Tfiac la correct. 

Q And Mr. JacK Lawn was Director ot the Drug 

Enforcement Administration? 

A During that time, there was a period of time 

when Mr. Mullen was Director and had a relationship to it at 
one time. But most of the time that I was in the position 
of either Associate of Deputy, Jack Lawn was Director. 

Q And Lawn is L-a-w-n? 

A That IS correct. 

Q When did yOu first learn -- and again, put it 
in context of the position you were in, if you can 

A I think it would h^ve been in 1986 when i 

would have been Deputy. 

Q My question is: When did you first learn that 

they had some role or function in the hostage location? 



I think It was around then, too. 

So it would have been sometime m 1986? 

I believe so. 

Do you recall trom whom you learned that? 

I don't know specifically. it would come, the 
flow of information would either come from DEA, or there 
were occasions where information comes via the Attorney 
General and he discussed it with me firsC. It may have been 
that there was a discussion with the Criminal Division. 
There is a relationship to responsibilities with reference 



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to investigation o£ kidnappings and hostages. That is ' 
related to the Criminal Division. So there were occasions j 
when I would discuss ttiese decisions with members of the \ 
Criminal Division who had responsibilities in that area. So { 
I can't tell you a specific person who was the first; it may 
have been just brought to my attention. It would have been i 



in that chain of information. 

Q And what did you learn about the DEA's role m 

the hostage question? 

A It was a question of whether DBA would 

participate in some efforts to locate and retrieve hostages, 
based upon their contacts wicti persons in those specific 
geographic areas. 

Q Did your awareness of this possibility come in 

advance of the DEA's activities? 

A I believe so. 

Q Do you recall specifically what their role was 

to be> as best you understood it? 

A As I understood. DEA, of course, has an 

overseas presence, had an overseas presence in this time. 
And/ aa a result of their responsibilities to gain 
information of that narcotics traffic, they would learn 
other Kinds of corollary information and, in these 
instances, that there was information that might have come 
through their sources that related to the hostages. 



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Q Old you underatand them co have' any 

op«cacionai function in the rescue oc return ot the 
hostages? 

A No, I did not. They did not have operational I 

responsiDilities overseas. They were basically information i 
and they did not have, and I don't think it was contemplated 

that they would have a change in their regular role. | 

I 

Q When you say they did not have operational I 

responsibilities overseas/ were they barred from conducting 
foreign operations? 

A They do not conduct foreign operations, in 

terms of direct investigative activities. It would have 
worked through the authorities of the country where they 
happened to be. So they would not on their own be engaged 
in investigative, or any kind of direct action activities. 

Q Would they conduce, with their own personnel, 

undercover operations overseas? 

A No: they would not conduct their own directed, 

controlled, and administered undercover operations. That 
would be deemed to be an operational activity I believe they 
would not be involved in. 

Q And they would do that in coordination with 

the host country? 

A That is correct. 

Q Do you recall learning of an aspect of the 



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OEA's involvemenc Chac included payments of on* Icind or 
anocher to persons overseas? 

A I believe chac Chac was a pare o£ Che 

descripcion: chac chere would be paymencs co che people who 
provided chen informacion and who would be> in etfecc. che 
concaccs chac chey had. 

Q But you understood chat to be payments tor 

information/ as opposed co bribes or ransom? 

A I believe so. 

Q Oo you recall che magnitude of che paynencs 

Chey were talking about? 

A No, I don't; I don't» know specifically. But I 

think it would be a significant amount. 

Q What would you consider significant? 

A I don't consider, if you are paying 

informants^ you could pay them in the range of hundreds of 
dollars. I think it was much more than that. 

Q Would it have been in the range of thousands 

or hundreds of thousands? 

A I would think — I don't recall, but I think 

more the latter. 

Q The hundred thousands? 

A That IS correct. 

Q Was there any discussion that you recall, or 

do you recall any discussion of the source of any funding 



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for Chac operacion? 



There was -- you mean the source of che funds 



themsei vea? 
Q 
A 
Q 



Yes. ; 

I 
I don't recall any such discussions. j 

I 
Was there any discussion of the use or , 

inclusion of privately raised money in this aspect/ in this ', 

I 
operation? ! 

A I don't believe so, with reference to this; 

but I don't-- 

Q To your knowledge, does the DEA have any 

prohibition, or is there any prohibition on DEA Agents that 
would prevent then from handling private funds or 
unappropriated funds? 

A I don't know that I could give you a chapter 

and verse with reference to this. But, by and large, the 
activities would not include that kind of arrangement in 
that DEA would be working with their own funds either 
developed by appropriation or from activities themselves. 

Q If there had been discussion of the use of 

private funds,* or the handling of private funds by the Drug 
Enforcement Administration, would that have triggered some 
kind of awareness on your part? 

A I believe so. 

Q Do you recall whether the Attorney General was 



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aware o{ OEA'a propos«d-- 

A I believe that he was. I think chia was a 

pare of/ once again, ge-neral discussions aDouc chese issues. 
As I said. It was a part of out practice to try to malce sure 
that any development the department would Be Known to the 
Attorney General. 

Q And I , assume that it was your understanding 

that Mr. Lawn was aware of the activities? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q How about Bud Mullen? 

A I don't know that he was still there. It 

would not be both of them in tha^ Jack Lawn succeeded Bud 
Mullen. But, at a point, he was his assistant, so that it 
IS possible that there was an overlap. But I don't think 
so. I don't have a recollection of this Mullen being a part 
of this. 

Q Do you recall any references to agents by the 

name o f ^^^^^^^^^^^^K o r ^^^^^^^^^^K 

A That could be. I don't have a recollection of 

the specific agents, although I think there was a discussion 
about who were DEA Agents involved. 

Q Would you recall any discussion about the need 

for a finding, an intelligence finding, in this area? 

A I don't recall that there was. Whatever 

needed to be done to make sure that the operations of the 



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agents was conaxatent with their responsibilities would 
have been a part of the discussions. But I don't know the 
terms and specifics. I don't thin< it got to the point 
where there was a description of an agreed upon operational 
plan . 

Q Do you recall if any outcome came about from 

these efforts? And let me -- in the present context, that 
is a dumb question. 

Were you ever advised, during your tenure with 
the Department of Justice, were you Icept advised of the 
evolution of this plan? 

A There was no specifi^ periodic reporting. It 

was more on an event basis. As information that seemed to 
be relevant to the needs of the Attorney General, or the 
Deputy, would come about, that information would flow; but 
there wasn't any follow up in terms of specific reporting 
that went on with reference to this. 

Q Do you recall any specific events that were 

brought to your attention? 

A I don't, at this time. 

Q Do you recall any discussion of Colonel North 

in this initiative? 

A I am not sur«/ but I think there was some 

relationship m terms of mutual interest and mutual 
activity that may have been involved. But I don't -- 



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Deyond that, I thin)c, I tniriK I do cecail that there was a 
recognition of the overlap. 

Q Do you recall either in this context/ or in 

any related context, discussion of an alleged Saudi prince 
by the a name of HJI^mi? 

And just by way of background, Mr. 
was a person who, our investigation has revealed, billed 
himself as a member of the Saudi Royal Family to other 
individuals, was involved with some of the people whose 
names have come up in th6 course of the investigation. He 
was ultimately, I thinlc, as of January of this year, 
convicted in Che Eastern District pt HHHBHI- 

A I was aware of that, but I would not be able 

to give you that name directly. But I believe that X was 
aware of such a circumstance and that there was a 
relationship to that )cind of a described person.' 

Q When you say 'relationship,* do you mean in 

the context of Che DEA operation? 

A More in the concexc of the hostages in terms 

of whether there night be any accivities that may have been 
caking place with ocher persons, or other activities. And 
I Chink chac I was aware of -- I would have co know more 
abouc Che specifics; buc I believe I have a recollection of 
Chac kind of acciviCy where chere was an issue of bona 
tides , or soaechxng, of che individual involved. 



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Q Do you cecal! any invoiveinenc with Coionel 

Worth with chat activity? 

A I don't Know specitically, but I tnintc 

generally that he would have had some Knowledge about that, 
or been aware of it. It would clearly be the sort o£ thing 
that would be an overlapping interest. 

Q In the context of the Saudi prince, or the 

alleged Saudi prince, do you recall the name Richard Miller 
arising? Mr. Miller is the principal in a Washington 
public relations firm called International Business 
Communicat ions. 

A I don't, I an not aw^re of that name. 

Q Do you recall whether you ever learned that 

this Saudi prince was operating with private individuals in 
this country to assist him? 

A It may have been part of a description as to 

the activity, but I don't know specifics with reference to 
that. 

MR. MC COUGH: Bob, do you have any questions 
on OCA? 
BY NR. GENZHAN: 

Q Let me asK a question regarding the Saudi 

price. I believe his naae was determined to be 
I^^H. Docs that ring a bell to you? 

A That name does not do anymore for me. 



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MR. GENZMAN: I have nothing else. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Lecuscurn to\ 

recall your tirst contact with the| 
case or circumstance? 

A When It was being developed, about the time 

the actual information about the case came in. I believe I 
had heard about it before there was an arrest. 

Q Do you recall a point in time when the 

Department of Justice was asked to intervene on ^^^^H 
^^^^B behalf 7 

A I have a recollection of something with 

reference to that after he had been convicted. 

Q Do you recall what? 

A More in terms of how it was being handled in 

the context of his custody. 

Q Do you recall with whom you discussed that? 

A I believe it was with Steve Trott of the 

Criminal Division. 

Q What can you recall about the proposal? 

A What was being proposed, and ic would be in 

the general notion that, something that would be other than 
the ordinary handling of ^^^^^^^^^^would be contemplated. 
There were activities lilte that from time to time where the 
Department would take some kind of action with reference to 



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th« custody scacus/ or che location of individuals who were i 

in the federal custody. I think that is what the subject 

matter was: as to whether or not there would De som"} 

specific step taken with reference to 

Q When you say "specific stepS/" what-- ' 

A Whether there may be, or how his custody 

status may oe handled. , 

i 
Q Whether there was a request that he be shown 1 

some leniency, or some consideration in that direction? ! 

A I believe that is the way you would describe 

It. ______^_^^.^ ' 

Do you why ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^| was 

be, was supposedly entitled to extra consideration or | 

leniency? | 

A No, I don't. I 

I 

Q Do you recall having an opinion as to the i 

appropriateness of showing leniency towards 



A Whatever may have been the showing, I thinlc 

that I agree with the estimate that there was no reason to 
do that. 

Q Is It your recollection that the decision was 

made not to take any extra steps on behalf ol 

A Yes, later on. 

Q Do you know who contacted Mr. Trott, in the 



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ticsc place? 

A I don't know. 

Q Old you, ever discuss tneJ 

wicn Colonel Noccn? 



inciden c 



A No, I believe noc. 

Q Did you ever discuss ic wicri Elliott Abrams? 

A No. . 

Q Do you know Elliott Abrams? 

A Yes: I Know Elliott Abrams. 

Q Did you ever discuss the^^^^^^^^^| case with 

the Attorney General? 

A No specific recollection, but it probably 

would have been discussed it with hio, with the Attorney 
General. But again, this would be a subject natter that 
would be a part o£ general discussions, as the events took 
place. 

Q Do you ever recall discussing the! 

case with anyone from the Department of Defense? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Do you recall discussing the case with Norman 

Carlson of the Bureau of Prisons? 

A I nay have. It would have been nis 

responsibility, but I don't think so. Discussions with 
Hr. Carlson would cone about if there were decisions to 
take sone action that would be other than simply the normal 



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handling of th« Bureau of Prisons. 

Q And ic 19 your recollection chat che decision 

was not to take that step? 
A I oelieve so. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Bob, do you have any questions 
t h e ^^^^^^^H m a 1 1 e r ? 

MB. GENZMAN: No. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Let U3 turn, if we could, to an investigation 

conducted in the Southern District of Florida, which has 
been known by a number of names. But the original, one of 
the original persons involved was, a fellow by the name of 
Garcia who became an informant for the Government and 
offered information about an alleged assassination plot, 
and possible Neutrality Act violations. 

Are you familiar with the case? 
A yes. 

Q Do you recall what your first contact with 

that case was? 

A No. In terms of when it was first reported, 

th« source, l believe it would have oeen from the criminal 
division. 

MR. MC GOUGH: Let the record reflect that, 
prior to convening the deposition, we provided Judge Jensen 
with a classified document that has been previously 



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introduced »s an exhibit to the deposition of Mr. Trott and 
asked him to review that document with an eye toward 
determining whether that might refresh his recollection as 
to hia contact with the case. 
BY MR. HC GOUGH: 

Q Having reviewed that document, do you recall, 

does that refresh your recollection at all? 

A Yes; I believe that that is a document that 

was generated in the course of that particular case. 

Q Do you reAember that document? It is', I 

think, addressed to your from Buck Revell at the FBI; is 
that correct? ^ 

A I think so. 

Q Do you know what the inception of the 

document was? 

A I think it was after there had been some 

knowledge about the case. As you say, there are many 
facets to the case; and there was a question, I believe, 
that asked the Criminal Division to give us, in effect, a 
■or* coaprchensive statement of what was actually being 
undergone. I think it came out of that request. 

Q Do you recall who made that request? 

A I believe that I made a request to have a 

stateacnt as to what was taking place/ and that there were 
a variety of activities. I think it asked the Criminal 



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n 



Division -- I spolc* with Mr. Trocc about that. | 

Q Do you recall contacting Mr. Revell? I 

A No; I don't thinlc so. I don't know tnat I i 

contacted hini directly. I thinK I spoke with the Criminal | 
Division people. i 

Q So, to the best of your recollection, you did 

not contact the FBI directly? 

A No. 

Q Do you recall advising Mr. Trott that you 

wanted to be Kept appraised o£-- 

A Yes, I believe so. 

Q But you don't recollect whether Mr. Trott, or 

someone in the Criminal Division, was the one who £irst | 
advised you of the case? 

A No; I don't know who it was. 

Q What is your first recollection of the nature 

of the case? 

A 

Q 
that time? 

A The relationships back to the Ambassador 

Tambs investigation of arms activities. And I think that 
was the general subject matter in terms of what kind of 
activity was involved, or what were the potential 



The general description of the investigation. 
What stood out to your as being important at 



ramifications o 



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Q Do you recall when, if ever, you first | 

learned of any allegation that the NSC or Colonel North I 
might be connected with, that investigation in Miami? j 

A No. I thinlc that now that I think Dac)c on it, 

maybe there was some relationship to the air transport, ! 
when that became public. But it would be after it became ,' 
public. 

Q Was this the first, to your Knowledge, was I 

this the first neutrality investigation being conducted 
into alleged gun running to the Contras? 

A I am not sure, I believe so. But to the best 

of my recollection, that would be.^ 

Q Were you aware -- now, let's go back to the 

— well, let us fix a date a little better. 

MR. NO GOUGH: Let us have this marked as 
Deposition Exhibit 3. 

(The document referred to was 
marked Deposition Exhibit No. 
3 Cor identification.) 
BY MR. NC GOUGH: 

Q So we are not flying blind here, Judge 

Jensen, let me show you what has been marked as Deposition 
Exhibit 3. Do you recognize that? 

(The document was proffered to the witness.) 

A Yes. There was a discussion before about a 



UNCLASSIFIED 



583 



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Clin* wh*n I apolc* to Adniral Poindvxccr, and I had 
indicacsd Chac I would se« wheCh«r or not Chac waa a pare 
of log, a oicecing log. And chxs appears co be the log tor 
that, March 24. 

Q The memorandum we have been diacusaing is 

March 20, 1986, and the meeting you had with Admiral 
Poindexter waa on March 24. So that would be the time 
frame in which you were dealing with thia case. 

A That is correct. 

Q In or abouC March 1986, were you aware of 

allegation that Colonel North was involved in support for 
the Contras, the Nicaraguan Resistance? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Specifically, do you recall seeing any news 

reports of such alleged involvement? 

A I don't Icnow that I did. I saw reports, as I 

say, at some point along the line; but I don't know that it 
waa reference to thia. 

Q I am not talking just in reference to this. 

Just in general, what I aa trying to explore is whether you 
were aware in March 1986 that there were allegations that 
Colonel North was involved in such a network? 

A I don't have a recollection of when that 

would have been. I don't believe ao. 

Q Now Che document that we have shown you, the 



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claasificd docunant wa have shown you> co your knowledge, 
la Chat the only written document, only document you have 
seen relating to this case? 

A I believe that is. 

Q Do you ever recall seeing an memorandum 

approximately 20 pages in length drafted by Mr. Jettrey 
Feldman in the Southern District of Florida? 

A Yes. I did not see that document. I think 

he showed me that before when we met. I indicated that I 
had not seen the document. 

Q How about an FBI prosecution memorandum? 

A No; I did not see any such document. 

Q Whati if any, discussion did you have with 

the Attorney General about this case? 

A Well/ there were discussions about it. Once 

again/ this would be a part of simply the regular business 
of discusaing events of intereat to the Department, and we 
talked about it. One of the reaaons that the summary was 
prepared was to get a more comprehenaive description of 
what waa actually taking place. 

Q There came a point in time when it was 

decided to brief Admiral Poindexter at the NSC, is that 
right? 

A That's right. 

Q Do you recall the meeting or conversation in 



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which thac decision waa made? 

A It would have been sooecime after the 

document had been prepared, I think, where it would have 
been discussed with the Attorney General. 

Q So It would have Been between March 20, 1986 

and March 247 

A 1986. 

Q Do you recall- 

A We may have discussed it before, but X thmlc 

It was in general context with the subject matter, 
obviously, o£ the document. 

Did the Attorney Gei\eral ever indicate to you 

that he had received an inquiry from the NSC about the 
case? 

A He may have. I don't have specific 

recollection o£ that. 

Q Would you have considered such an inquiry 

unusual? 

A No; I don't know that I would have. 

Q Did you ever receive an inquiry from anyone 

at the NSC? 

A I don't believe I did. I believe that my 

interest was from the Department's perspective. 

Q Do you recollect the specific discussion with 

the Attorney General in which the decision was made to 



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yNCLftSSIFIED 



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bri*£ Admiral PoindsxCec? 

A NOi I don'C. But> it would have been a pare 

ot our general diacusaions about De paccmencal activicies 
that cook place all o£ che cime. We did chis everyday. 
And, 30> sure, ic was part of chat. Ic was not a pare of 
any regular -- I believe ic was just the two of as 
disc ussing it. 

Q Do you recall whose idea it was, or whose 

suggestion it was, to brief Admiral Poindexcer? 

A I don't knbw. 

Q Up until that point, had you had any contact 

with Admiral Poindexter? , 

A No. 

Q Had you ever met Admiral Poindexter? 

A Yes. 

Q Had you ever briefed Admiral Poindexter on 

any case other than this case? 

A In the same vein, perhaps not; but maybe we 

discussed it about other cases. I don't recall the 
sequence, but there were times when, either at the 
operational activities, maybe Admiral Poindexter had been 
there and there had been discussions. But I don't have any 
other, no formal kind of process like this. 

Q This was the only time that you actually made 

a trip down to see Admiral Poindexter and brief him on a 



UNCUSSinED 



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case? 

A That's eigne. 

Q There were, however, other cases with 

assassination plots involved, were there not? 

A That's right. 

Q And there were other Neutrality Act 



violat lons-- 

A 

Q 
correct? 

A 

Q 



I believe so. 

--being handled by the Department; is that 



There wer«> certainly. 

Can you tell me wh^c it was that made this 
case worthy of a special trip to the NSC to brief Admiral 
Poindexter? 

A I don't know that I can. Just that it was of 

high drama; and o£, i think, of great interest in that I 
thought that it was, that it had a complex of factors 
involved in terms of threats to ambassadors and activities 
and the disclosures that may take place in Hiami, and the 
developments of activities. So. I think just the mix of 
all of this was such that we felt that it was of sufficient 
moment that, perhaps in this instance, we should do that. 

What was it about Admiral Poindexter's 

position that it made it desirable to brief him? 

A That he would be a part of any of the follow 



JEUSSIEIEQ 



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up o{ carcainly any acciviciea chac tnighc involve the ' 
ainbaaaador . That certainly would De part of our xntereat. 
And> in a general senae. obvxoualy/ I knew that references i 
to the whole Nicaraguan situation would oe of interest. I 

Q When you say he would De part of the follow ' 

up in any incident-- 

A Anything that would happen. If there were an 

incident where there was a threat in a specific icind of 
operational activity that may have to be taken by the 
Government! with reference to protection of an ambaasador> 
or an arrest of someone who might be involved in a plot/ it 
would be of intereat certainly to ^dmiral Poindexter. 

Q Do you recall whether the decision was made 

to brief anyone other than Admiral Poindexter on the case? 

A No ; no decision either to do or not do. It 

simply was: let us do what we did. 

Q Was the State Department briefed on this? 

A I think they were already in the -- it was 

clear that they had already been briefed with reference to 
any activity by the Ambassador. I think there was a 
regularized flow. I am sure that I was aware of all of the 
persons wlio received thiS/ but I don't know that NSC did 
get this kind of information aa a regularized flow. 

Q Why, if it was a regularized flow in 

departments like State and CIA, why did you go to brief 



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AdBiral Poindaxcer? 

A Simply to -- I suppose chat it may have Deen 

that the events were contemporaneous, and that there may 
have been something that developed that in terms of the 
Garcia matter that would now become a part ot public 
discussions: then, there would be a question about what 

was being done to handle this matter. I thinK we briefed 
him with reference to that as to what the Department was 
actually doing. 

Q What was likely to become a public 

discussion? 

A I think there was soiye question about whether 

or not there was a sentence coming up that would involve 
statements by Garcia in the part of that sentencing 
process. I believe that is what was happening. 

Q Do you recall, with regard to and sentence, 

Che decision being made to postpone that sentencing? 

A No; that is not a part oC the process in 

terns of handling the case itself. 

Q Prior to briefing Admiral Poindexter, did you 

have any conversation yourself with Nr. Kellner, the Unitec 
States Attorney for the Southern District? 

A I think around the time, I think probably I 

had talked with Kellner about the specific matter. 

Q Had you ever discussed any other cases with 



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Mr. Kttllnec? 

A Many, many occasions; there were many times 

when we calked with Mr.. KeUner. There is a great deal of 
activity out ot his office. 

Q You had advised Mr. Trott, you in turn 

involved Mr. Richards to keep an eye on the case and to 
keep you advised; is that correct? 

A I think that we had/ that there were -- this 

was the kind of case where there was an activity in the U. 
S. Attorney's Office> and I believe we wanted to be kept up 
to date on it. There was no -- in some instances ttiac 
takes place systematically; in son^ instances it doesn't. 

Q I guess my question would be: Having 

notified Mr. Trott and Mr. Richards to keep an eye on it, 
why didn't you feel it important for you personally to 
discuss the case with Mr. Trott? 

A There was a sequence like that. I think I 

may have talked with KeUner about this before that, it may 
very well be. I had many conversations with KeUner, and 
it may have been multiple subject matters. It may have 
b««n in that context. I don't know that there was a 
sequence, as you described it. 

Q Did you ever tell Mr. KeUner to slow down or 

to slow down his investigation? 

A No ; I did not. 



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Q To your )cnowl«d9«, did anyone in ch« 

0«parta«nc of Juacic* c«U Mr. Kttllncr co slow down? 

A I hav« na such Knowladge. I mean, chac is 

cne sore ot Ching, Chac cher* had been some activity, we 
would cake sone action with reference to that. It would be 
a proper — 

Q You are not aware of anyone instructing 

anyone else to tell Mr. Kellner to do that? 

A No; I am not. 

Q Do you recall any discussions with Mr. 

RcUner about the efficacy of going forward with a grand 
jury? , 

A I don't know that I talked with him about the 

specific handling. That would D* a matter that would be 
before the initial decision of the U. S. Attorney. And, in 
this instance/ it should be some discussion with Criminal 
Division as to what was going on. But I was not a part of 
the operation on decisions like that. My interest was more 
being Informed of activities and making sure that there was 
a contemporaneous flow of information. 

Q Were you aware of any decision to go ahead 

and present the matter or employ the grand jury in an 
investigation? 

A I am sure X did. I think Chat that was going 

to take place. I think that was part of what was 



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60 


1 


contemplated in terms of the follow up to this information. 


2 


Q When you say that was going to take place, 


3 


■ was that going to take place at or around March 24? 


4 


A I believe so. 


5 


Q Did you discuss with Mr. Keilner anything to 


6 


do with the assistant who was assigned to the case, his 


7 


level o£ experience or anything like that? 


8 


A No, I did not. 


9 


Q Did you ever discuss that with anyone in the 


10 


Department? 


11 


A No. 


12 


Q Let us turn, if wf could, to the actual 


13 


briefing with Admiral Poindexter. That took place at the 


14 


NSC; is that correct? 


15 


A Well, at his office. 


16 


Q At his office, and that was, as best you can 


17 


recaU, March 24, 1986? 


18 


A Yes. 


19 


Q Can you tell me what occurred at that 


20 


briefing? 


21 


A Went in to his office and showed him the 


22 


paper that you previously made reference to. 


23 


Q Do you recall whether — let me back up. i 


24 


assume he read the paper? 


25 


A Yes. 

UNCI ASSIHFn 



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Q Do you cecaii whechec you ietc tiim with a 

copy, or whether you tooK the copy back? 

A I believe I left him a copy. i don't know 

for aure. 

Q Do you cecall any discussion with Admiral 

Poindexter about the case? 

A No. Simply that I felt that it should be 

brought to his attention, and did so. 

Q Why did you deliver the briefing paper 

personally, if you can recall? 

A I don't know that there was any specific 

reason for that, just happened. , 

Q Do you recall Admiral Poindexter asking you 

anything about the case? 

A No, he did not. 

Q Do you recall making any statements to 

Admiral Poindexter about the case? 

A No. Simply that I was bringing this 

information to nis attention. 

Q Did you sit there while he read the document? 

A Yes. I 

I 
Q Approximately how long did the meeting take? 

A A brief period of tine, no more than it took 

to do that. 

Q Do you recall any mention of Colonel North in 



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this nvacing? 

A No. 

g Do you racall any nencion of ch« Nicaraguan 

Oenocracic Resiscance/ ch« Conccas? 

A No. 

Q To your IcnowladgCf other than yourself and 

Admiral Poindexter and the Attorney General, was anyone 
else aware of your briefing of Admiral Poindexter? 

A I don't believe so. 

Q Did you tell Mr. Trott? 

A No; I don't thmK so. 

Q Did you ever discu^ the case with Adairal 

Poindexter after that time? 

A Never did. 

Q To your Icnowledge. did anyone at the 

Department of Justice discuss the case with Admiral 
Poindexter after that time? 

A In a general sensei I don't know. No; I 

don't have such knowledge. But there may certainly have 
b««n SOB* further follow up in terms of all of the mix of 
activities taking place since then. I did not; I don't 
know, and I don't know specifically of anybody speaking to 
him. 

Q Do you know if the Attorney General ever 

spoke about the case with him? 



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1 A No, I don't. 

2 Q There was a time, was there not, when you and 

3 the Attorney General made a stop in Miami on your way to a 

4 conference? 

5 A Yes, I recall that. 

6 Q And I believe the date is sometime in early 

7 April. It you don 't_ hold me to this, I would say April 10. 
g A Well, you can look it up for sure in that it 
9 was on the way to a meeting with the Mexican Attorney 

10 General in Cancun to follow up on issues o£ drug cases. It 

11 was immediately after that there had been an ambush and a 

12 shooting of FBI Agents in Miami. ^nd the purpose of going 

13 to Miami was to visit with the FBI Agents, and the 

14 opportunity came' i" that we were going to this meeting in 
^5 Mexico anyway. 

ie Q Do you recall when you arrived at the 

17 airport with the Attorney General there were some vehicles 

,18 there to meet you, were there not? 

19 A That is correct. 

20 Q Did Mr. Kellner meet you at the airport? 

21 A Yes, he did. 

22 Q Do you recall during the course of your 

23 visit in Miami who rode with whom, in what cars? 

24 A Ny best recollection is that Mr. Kellner 

25 rode with the Attorney General, and I rode in another car. 



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But< w« w«nc CO two ditC«r«nc hospitals Chen recurned co 

ch« aicpocc. So Cher* were several cines when you were in 

and ouc o£ cars. So,. I don't Icnow specifically, buc I i 

believe there was a time when, say, Mr. Kellner rode with | 

I 
Che Accorney General. Buc I don'c believe chac I did. j 

Q Becween che cime Chac you briefed Admiral 

I 

Poindexcer on Harch^ 24, and Che visit co Miami somecime in 
early April -- and I believe ic was April 10 -- do you 
recall discussing che case, chis case, wich che Accorney 
General? 

A In cerms of specifics, I don't. Buc ic may 

very well have taken place in ceri^s of follow up. 

Q Oo you recall talking to the Attorney 

General about it in the context of your visit to Miami? 

A No, I don'c. 

Q Did it com* up on the plan* down chac chis 

cas* was pending down th*r*, or che Accorney General ask 
you queaciona about it when h* l*arn*d that h* was going co 
CO Miami? 

A I don't b*li*v* ao . Th*r* w*r* obviously 

aiCuationa wh*ra, wh*n you w*r* going co go co an ar*a and 
m**c with Ch* U. S. ACCorn*y, or wich ch* Ag*nc in charg* 
of Ch* FBI, or Chat sort of thing, w*ll, th* Accorn*y 
G*n*cal would g*t briefings as to what was going on so chat 
h* could discuas thos*. And, in most inatanc*s, I would b* 



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aware of chac; and I would not b« aware of it always, aa 
tac as what had caKen place, or what his scatf had 
prepaced. There may have been some preparation wich 
reference to that. I don't have any recollection of that, 
but I would not have any reason to disbelieve that there 
had been some further discussions about the case berore we 
went there. But I don't thinlc there was any specific 
agenda prepared as to what was going to be discussed with 
the agents, or with Mr. Kellner. 

Q Do you recall any specific cases being 

discussed in your presence during your trip to Miami? 

A No, I don't. , 

Q Let me direct your attention specifically to 

conversations that might have talcen place in either of the 
two hospitals where you were visiting the FBI Agents. 

A There may have been some references. It 

would have been very informal. The visits were to the 
officers and cheir families, and there was a discussion 
with Che Attorney General and myself, and others, who met 
with the officers who were in the hospital in bed, and 
Cheir families were there and we talked with their 
families. The Attorney General met specifically with them. 
It was a very brief crip and, so, if there was any business 
discussions about issues of inceresc of Mr. Kellner and the 
Department, if would have been very brief. 



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Q Do you recall any discussion during cnac 

visit to Miami of this particular case? 

A No> I don't. I recall discussions aoout 

what had talcen place with the agentS/ and that was our 
basic area of interest. 

Q you recall not discussions relating to this 



case? 

A 

Q 
other cases? 

A 



Right. 

This would be discussions with the agents on 



No. On the agentSi where there had been 
shooting of the agents. I mean, ,we had a great deal of 
discussions about that: what had taken place. 

Q I thought you meant discussions of the 

agents with this case, you meant? 

A No; I meant with the agents who had 

unfortunately been shot. 

To your knowledge, had Mr. Kellner ever met 

the Attorney General prior to that visit? 

A I think so. There was maybe one occasion. 

I know there was at least an informal session when all (J. 
S. Attorneys came and met with the Attorney General when he 
first came into office. I am quite sure that Hr. Kellner 
was there. But I would think that there had been -- I 
don't think it was a situation where Mr. Kellner came and 



UNCUSSIFIED 



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a«C with Che Attorney General in teems of specific 
activities in that office. I remernbec other situations 
where we met with Mr. Keilner and members of his office, 
but I am not sure. I think it was with reference to other 
activities. 

Q And those meetings would have been m 

Washington? 

A There was at least one meeting while we were 

at Mr. Kellner's office/ but it had to do with another 
activity where it happened that the Attorney General was in 
Miami and took advantage of the fact that he 
characteristically did that whenevfr he went to an area for 
some reason: he would also go and see the 0. S. Attorney 
and the people who were in the office. 

Q Do you ever recall Mr. Keilner coming to 

Washington to discuss, or with one of the results or 
purposes be to discuss this case? 

A No, I don't. Not with me. He may very well 

could have. 

Q After the visit to Miami regarding the FBI 

shootings, to you recall any further contact or 
developaents in the investigation, the Garcia 
investigation? 

A No, I don't. 

Q Do you recall Mr. Keilner ever being in -- 



mussffl. 



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and I undaracand you d*parced< you lefc the Oeparcmenc o£ 
Justice in June 1986. Prior to that time/ did you ever 
have any discussions with He. Keiiner about adverse 
puDlicity that was being generated by the investigation in 
the Garcia case? 

A No ; I don't believe that I did. 

Q Do you recall being involved/ or were you 

involved in responses to press inquiries regarding the 
existence or nonexistence of an investigation in Miami? 

A No, I was hot. 

Q Have you ever been contacted by, or have you 
ever spoken to, a reporter by the (^aae of Hurray Waas? 

A No, I haven't. 

NR. HC GOUGH: Bob, that is all the 
questions I have on the Hiani case. Oo, you have any 
questions? 

HR. GENZNAN: No, I don't. 
BY MR. MC GOUGH: 

Q Let us turn, if I could, and I want to 

flniati up, if I could, by inquiring about any contact you 
■•y have had with certain people between, let's say, 
November 1, 1986 to the present. And, if there is a lot of 
contact, we will try to narrow ic down a little bit. Hy 
first question relates to contact with the Attorney General 
since November 1986. And, by November 1986, I really mean 



WLASSIEim 



601 



WWMB 



69 



th« baginning of the puDlicity relacing to th« Iran-Contra 

2 A££aic. 

3 A YeSf I understand your time frame. 

4 Q OKay. 

5 A I Have seen the Attorney General; I have had 
5 discussions with him since then. We have not had any 
7 substantive discussio^ns about the natters we have gone over 
3 here in terns of the activities that we nay have been 
9 together on and that we have described here today. 

10 Q Approximately how often have you tallced to 

11 the Attorney General since then? 

12 A Not on frequent occasions. I have only seen 

13 him a couple of tines. I have talked to him on the phone a 

14 couple of times. 

15 Q On any of those occasions> have you 

16 discussed either the meeting with Colonel North and the 

17 Attorney General? 

,18 A We have discussed the fact that I have had a 

19 discussion with him where I think I told him of those 

20 avsnts. 

21 Q 'Those events' being what events? 

22 A The meeting with Hr. North, meeting with 

23 Admiral Poindestec; and this was a part of the general 

24 discussion about the subject matter chat he and I are 
25 



incecesced in. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



602 



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Q Was that discussion, co which you are 

referring CO now. did Chac ca Ice place between our 
indicacions, the Comnictee 's Indication, to you that we 
wanted to interview you, and the actual date o£ the 
interview, do you Icnow? 

A No; I thinlc it was before that. 

Q Oo you recall, can you put any tcind o£ date 

on It? 

A I am trying to remenber, but these were with 

relations to discussions about perhaps return to 
Washington, and what activities might take place, and what 
issues might be there. A whole, range of activities in 
terms of what had taken place in the Department. So this 
was a brief mention of any number of items, it was in that 
context. And I discussed with him about whether I might 
return to Washington. 

Q The two items that you mentioned were your 

briefing of Admiral poindexter and the visit of Colonel 
North? 

A No; I am saying in terms of what you and I 

have calked about and we have talked about all kinds of 
things. 

Q In terms of things relating to the Iranian 

or General American situacion? 

A No: chas* would b« che only ones that were 



m&mm 



603 



iiiwsm 



71 



1 raiacad to chac. I Delieve. 

2 Q Why did you mention those two? 

3 A Only that it may be a pact of any follow up i 

\.t I returned to Washington in some position. i 

I 

5 Q What was it about those two incidents that I 

6 caused you to raise them? . 

7 A It may be an issue that, if I were to return i 
3 and it would be part of a confirmation process, that these i 
9 will be issues that might be discussed, and simply recited 

10 what might be discussed if that were to taKe place. As I 

^■^ say, it was part of a whole list of things. 

12 2 ^^'^ the Attorney general agree with your 

13 basic recollection of the events? 

14 A It wasn't a matter of agreeing or not, it 

15 was just a recitation. 

16 By you to him? 

17 A That's right. 
,18 Q Have you had any contact with the Attorney 

19 General since our interview here, and that would be Nay 29? 

20 A I think I talked to him on the phone, but 

21 not about this. 

22 Q The subject matter of our inveatigation did 

23 not come up. 

24 A No . 

25 Q Have you had any contact at all with Colonel 



iim:i mm 



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North ainca you l«£t th« Governmsnc? 

A No> I have not. 

Q Stride that. I don't know whether you are 

atili With the Government or not. 

A Another branch> perhaps It should be phrased 

in that fashion. 

Q Have you had any contact with Admiral 

Poindexter? 

A No. 

Q Have you had any contact with Oliver Revell 

since you left the Department of Justice? 

A I have calked with fiim, but not about this. 

Q On how many occasions would you have talked 

to him? 

A Maybe once. 

Q When would that have been? 

A A couple of months ago. 

Q Old that relate to the subject of our 

investigation? 

A No, It did not. 

MR. HC GOUGH: If I may have a moment. 
Bobf do you have any follow-up questions 
while I am going over my notes? 
HR. GBMZMAM; No. 
MR. NC GOUGH: Those are the all question I 



1 



wuai^ssro 



605 







1 


haw. 


2 


MR. GENZMAN: I hav« nothing further. 


3 


MR. MC GOUGH: We have completed. ThanK you 


4 


for your time Judge Jensen. We appreciate it. 


5 


(Whereupon, at 11:10 a.m., the deposition 


6 


was concluded.) 


7 
8 


AW' '^>^L^ ' 


9 


D. LOWELL JENSEN 


10 


• 1 


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- 


12 


» 


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1 


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i 
1 


IS 


1 


16 




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UNCLASSIHED 



606 



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2S 



m^i^ 



74 



STATE OF CALIFORNIA 




ind County o£ 
San Francisco> 
scat* ot California 



OmOALSCAL 

lAMES W. HIGGINS 

JlOTMvnjKJC 




City and County of San Francisco ) ' 

I, JAMES. W. HIGGINS, a Notary Public in tne I 
State of California, hereby certify that the witness in the 
foregoing deposition was by me duly sworn to testify the | 
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in the 
within-entitled cause; that said deposition was taken at 
the time and place therein stated; that the testimony of 
the said witness was reported by me, and thereafter 
transcribed by me into typewriting; that the foregoing is a 
full, complete and true record of , said testimony. 

I further certify that I am not of counsel or 
attorney for either or any of the parties in the foregoing 
deposition and caption named, or in any way interested in 
the outcome of the cause named in said caption. 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my 
hand and affixed my seal this 8th day of July 1987. 



607 



Stenographic Transcript of 

HEARINGS _H51TS-^=?1^> 

Before the 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECRET MILITARY ASSISTANCE 
TO IRAN AND THE NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION 

UNITED STATES SENATE 



TESTIMONY OF EDWARD S. JUCHNIEWICZ 
Thursday, April 23, 198? 






Partially Declassified/Released on 

under provisions of E.O. 12356 
by N. Menan, National Security Council 



Washington. D.C. 



^mm.^,, 




ALDE^^SCN ^PCR"r.G ] B ^t: 



(202) 629-9300 
20 F STREET, N.W. 
WASHINGTON, D. C. 20001 



608 



609 



16 





1 TESTIMONY OF EDWARD S. JUCHNIEWICZ 

2 Thursday, April 23, 1987 

3 United States Senate 

4 Select Committee on Secret Military 

5 Assistance to Iran and the 

6 Nicaraguan Opposition 

7 Washington, D. C. 

8 Deposition of EDWARD S. JUCHNIEWICZ, called as 

9 a witness by counsel for the Select Committee, at the 

10' offices of the Select Committee, Room SH-901, Hart Senate 

11 Office Building, Washington, D. C. , commencing at 2:45 

12 p.m. , the witness having been duly sworn by RAYMOND HEER, 

13 XII, a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, 

14 and the testimony being taken down by Stenomask by 

15 RAYMOND HEER, III, and transcribed under his direction. 



(609) 



UNSiA&sra 



610 



1 APPEARANCES : 

2 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee on Secret 

3 Military Assistance to Iran and the Nicaraguan 

4 Opposition: 

5 TIMOTHY WOODCOCK, ESQ. 

6 THOMAS POLGAR, ESQ. 

7 On behalf of the Central Intelligence Agency: 

8 R. BRADFORD STILES, ESQ. 

9 RHONDA M. HUGHES, ESQ. 

10 PHYLLIS PRORST MC NEIL, ESQ. 

11 



UNCktfB 



611 



BNEtfSSlW 



1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon/ 

3 EDWARD S. JUCHNIEWICZ, 

4 called a witness by counsel for the Senate Select 

5 Committee, and having been duly sworn by the Notary 

6 Public, was examined and testified as follows: 

7 EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE 

8 BY MR. WOODCOCK: 

9 Q Before we begin, let me put on record who I am 

10 and my capacity. I am Tim Woodcock. I am an Associate 

11 Counsel with the Senate Select Committee on the Secret 

12 Military Assistance to Iran and Nicaraguan Opposition. 

13 In that capacity, I am representing the Committee at this 

14 deposition. 

15 The Committee has been constituted to pursue, 

16 as I think you know, a wide range of matters under its 

17 enabling resolution that includes transfer of arms to 

18 Iran and also diversion, perhaps, of monies to the 

19 Nicaraguan opposition and also whatever material 

20 assistance may have been rendered to the Nicaraguan 

21 opposition. This deposition is part of that inquiry on 

22 the part of the Committee and therefore is an official 

23 proceeding of the Senate Select Committee. It is 

24 entirely possible that this deposition may be used by the 

25 Committee in its later scheduling of hearings on this and 



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orher topics. 

That r.avir.g besn said, let nie begin by asking 
you if you would to sketch your backgrour.d, your 
professional background, particularly as that it began 
with the Agency and perhaps greater detail as the years 
go by. 

A I should have brought my resume along. 




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then from 1983 to '86 I was the 
Associate Deputy Director of Operations. 

Q Would you take a moment and describe your last 
position Associate Deputy Director of Operations, what 
your duties encompassed? 

A Basically to assist the Deputy Director of 
Operations in the management of all our clandestine 
activities world-wide. 

Q Now, during your tenure was John McMahon the 
Deputy Director the entire time? 

A No, John McMahon, while I was on the — 
McMahon appointed me to h i s^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H He 
srill the Deputy Director for Operations at that time. 
McMahcn left to tecoTie t.he Deputy Director and] 
took over the Directorate of Operations. 



UitliSStFlfO 



614 



wmmiw 



1 Q Do you recall when that was? 

2 A No, I don't. Can you get it out of the files 

3 somewhere? 

4 MR. POLGAR: Off the record. 

5 • BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

6 Q You have testified that you became ADDO in 

7 1983. At that time who was your superior? 

9 Q If you remember, approximately when did^^H 

10 l^^^^^^leave his position? 

11 A I think it was sometime in '85. Early '85. 

12 Q And then who succeeded him? 

13 A Clair George. 

14 Q Now you have testified that your duties as 

15 ADDO were to assist the DDO in clandestine operations 

16 and, I gather, generally in what the DDO did for the 

17 Agency. 

18 A Correct. 

19 Q Could you go into somewhat greater detail as 

20 to the jurisdiction of the DDO and what he might do in 

21 the course of a day? 

22 A Well, actually the DDO would have the group of 

23 individuals, ^^^Kspecial assistants, specifically, 

24 reviewing the cable traffic from all over the world, from 

25 all our stations all over the world. Anything of 

Is, 



S 



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particular importance would be flagged for the DDO to 
peruse or to consider. This also would be flagged for me 
to look at. 

We had regularly scheduled meetings with our 
other managers within the Directorate of Operations. So 
on a particular day we might have had several division 
chiefs and a staff chief to come for a half an hour or 
one-hour meeting to discuss the situation in their area 
of responsibility. We also could have had discussions 
scheduled on personnel issues, personnel matters. Some 
of the operational things that were brought to our 
attention by our leaders required more extensive review, 
required more extensive deliberations, the sending of 
correspondence to one or several field stations because 
of a crisis situation that may have arisen in one of of 
the areas. 




Q Did you have any screening responsibilities 
yourself for cables submitted to the DDO? 

A No, the screening was done by the special 
assistants, both incoming and outgoing. 



mamn 



616 



iifiiimm. 



8 

1 Q Now, these special assistants worked for the 

2 DDO himself, is that right? 

3 A They were assigned to the office, but in 

4 effect they^^^^Kcreened for the DDO. ^^^Hdid a certain 

5 amount of the screening for me because I had a special 

6 interest in resource matters. Having come out of the 

7 staff which managed the Directorate's resources for three 

8 years, I was very familiar with the whole budget process 

9 and the management of resources in the Directorate, so I 

10 was asked to continue to watch over that that particular 

11 aspect- 

12 Q 'Now did you have any staff of your own? 

13 A I did not. 

14 Q Was there any particular deputy you relied on, 

15 any particular special assistant? 

16 A No. 

17 Q Let me proceed from there to a discussion of 

18 the November flight of HAWKs that has become so 

19 celebrated. Could you, if you would, recount your 

20 recollection of your first involvement in this? 

21 A Let's see. The first involvement was on a 

22 Friday afternoon. It was mid-afternoon when I was 

23 approached by Mr. Duane Clarridge, who was the chief of 

24 our European division at the time. Clair George was out 

25 of town, so Mr. Clarridge came up to talk with him and 



mmssm 



617 



ijNeiAssffe 



1 said that he had been approached, and I think that he had 

2 specified whether he physically met with Colonel North or 

3 whether he was phoned by Colonel North. 

4 Colonel North explained to him that he had a 

5 dilemma, that he was in need of transport to ship some 

6 material to Israel, and he was having a difficult time 

7 locating a reliable freight carrier. • He asked if 

8 clarridge could be of some assistance, Clarridge did 

9 whatever checking he had to do and in the process told me 

10 that he had consulted with our^^^^^^^^Hpeople. The. 

11 m^l^^^H apparently was able to come up with several 

12 companies that they were aware of, but since Colonel 

13 North indicated that there was a rather short time frame, 

14 that he had to have the transport relatively short order, 

15 they discounted the possibility of arranging anything 

16 through any of these other mechanisms and suggested to 

17 Mr. Clarridge that he consider using the agency's 

18 proprietary aircraft. 

19 Clarridge did not give any kind of immediate 

20 reaction to Colonel North from what he mentioned to me. 

21 And his point with me was, what do you think? And I said 

22 not knowing anything about what Colonel North had in mind 

23 or what anybody else had in mind, I said that the 

24 proprietary was a bona fide commercial venture and since 

25 I knew that General Secord was out there doing all kinds 



UNCtftSStrtED 



618 



UNCLASSKP 



RD 10 

1 of things — I didn't know specifically what he was doing 

2 — since it was a bona fide commercial venture, I said 

3 anybody could go out and approach the manager of the 

4 proprietary and charter that aircraft. 

5 And he said, well, do you have any particular 

6 objections? And I said well, why should I have any 

7 objections if Colonel North or General Secord went to 

8 wherever the proprietary is located and dealt with the 

9 proprietary manager? I said you are not asking me to 

10 commit any funds, any Agency funds. You are not asking 

11 me to 'commit Agency resources. You are not asking me to 

12 commit the Agency in any way to any thing. It's a purely 

13 a commercial undertaking. So he left at that and I did 

14 not hear from him that day. 

15 That evening I got a telephone call at the 

16 house. 

17 Q Before we leave that point let me see if I 

18 can't ask you a couple of questions about this initial 

19 conversation with Mr. Clarridge. Did he let you Jtnow who 
in^^^^^^^^^^^^he spoken 

21 A No. 

22 Q And in your response to him at this time, at 

23 this early juncture, did you refer to General Secord? 

24 A I did not. 

25 Q And did he bring to your attention General 




619 




^ 11 

1 Secord at that point? 

2 A He did not bring attention to General Secord 

3 at that time, but I recalled having been briefed by 

4 someone that General Secord was travelling around in some 

5 alias, and I did not recall the alias, but he was 

6 functioning as Colonel North's point man, so to speak. 

7 Q Let me address that for just a moment. Do you 

8 recall when that briefing might have occurred with 

9 respect to this conversation? 

10 A Shortly before this conversation, but I don't 

11 know exactly when. 

12 Q And do you recall whether the briefer was an 

13 agency person? 

14 A Oh, yes, yes. My suspicion is that it might 

15 have even been one of our staff assistants who was out 

16 purusing through the cable traffic, the staff assistants 

17 who reviewed all the cable traffic every morning. 

18 Q So I gather this was brought to your 

19 attention, not with respect to any impending operation, 

20 but just a matter of general information? 

21 A Right. 

22 Q And do you recall what it was? You testified 

23 that General Secord was out there travelling, doing all 

24 sorts of things. Do you recall specifically what he was 

25 doing? 




620 



uNtussra, 



12 



1 A No. Apparently — my recollection is that he 

2 tried to contact several of our station chiefs to 

3 facilitate some contacts between himself and members of 

4 liaison services or local governments. I forget the 

5 countries where this happened. And we had received 

6 cables from these stations telling us that, asking us for 

7 instructions as to how to react. And it's my impression 

8 that this was, this was brought to Colonel North's 

9 attention in some manner. And I think he finally 

10 admitted to someone — and I don't who it was he admitted 

11 to — that General Secord was — whatever alias they gave 

12 was indeed General Secord and he was working for the 

13 White House, period. 

14 Q And all this preceeds your conversation with 

15 Clarridge on the 27nd? 

16 A That is my recollection. Yeah, because I — 

17 but, you know, you have to bear in mind that I've so much 

18 since then and it hasn't been official correspondence. 

19 I've been reading everything in the press about this 

20 entire incident. So now I'm having a bit of a difficult 

21 time putting it chronologically. I don't know what I was 

22 briefed on before while I was still in the Agency, what I 

23 read when I retired or after retirement, and what I read 

24 in order to bone up on my testimony before the SSCI. 

25 But I have not been in the building since. 




621 



l)NCtftS«8 



RD 13 

1 I've been in the building, but on other matters, and I've 

2 read no correspondence whatsoever relating to this this 

3 whole episode, the Iran" episode. 

4 Q You're not the only witness with that 

5 difficulty. 

6 A Because my intent is certainly is not to 

7 mislead. I mean, I want to be very forthcoming and 

8 factual insofar as I can be, but, you know, bearing in 

9 mind that I haven't been exposed to this stuff for quite 

10 a while. 

11 'Q Let me go back to this moment just try and 

12 parse this' out a little bit further. Your recollection, 

13 your best recollection is that you received basically an 

14 information briefing from someone who had been reading 

15 cable traffic that Secord was travelling around. 

16 A Yes. 

17 Q Now, did that briefing or that information 

18 include the information you just described about Secord 

19 trying to contact station chiefs? 

20 A Yes. Because, in other words, if it was in a 

21 cable it obviously had to do with some station chief 

22 writing back to us and asking us who this guy was. 

23 Q Now, do you recall whether that briefing that 

24 you received contained any reference to what it was that 

25 Secord was doing trying to get in touch with these 




622 



UHEUSSIflffi 



14 



1 Station chiefs? 

2 A No. 

3 Q And you said that in all probability the 

4 reason these cables would have been coming in the station 

5 chiefs would have been seeking some instruction from 

6 headquarters. 

7 A Exactly. 

8 Q Do you recall whether any instructions went 

9 out of headquarters? 

10 A My recollection was that there was something 

11 that went out to these stations. 

12 Q And what time frame would that have been? 

13 A I have no idea. 

14 Q But presumably that would have been before 

15 your conversation with Mr. Clarridge? 

16 A I would say. 

17 Q Let me try and test your memory just a little 

18 further. Do you have any idea what the content of those 

19 instructions would have been? 

2 A I would have no idea. 

21 Q Let me ask you a different kind of a question. 

22 On the subject of Major General Secord, did you have any 

23 prior knowledge of Major General Secord? 

24 A Never heard of the guy, never met him in my 

25 life, which is — there is something in the Tower 



UNCOlSSIFIEir 



623 




15 

1 Commission Report suggestive that I met him at the Agency 

2 building on one occasion which is absolutely absurd. 

3 I've never met the guy. 

4 Q Did he have any reputation that you knew of? 

5 A No. 

6 Q I gather then that you were unaware of any 

7 connection with Edmund Wilson? 

8 A Totally. Of course, a lot of people 

9 volunteered opinions of General Secord afterward. But 1 

10 had not known that before. 

11 Q When you say afterward. How long are we 

12 talking about? 

13 A Many months afterward. 

14 Q There was some post facto assessments? 

15 A Yes, post facto assessments of General Secord. 

16 Q Let me ask you one more question on that topic 

17 so that I can clarify this section of your testimony. 

18 When you were speaking with Mr. Clarridge on the 22nd, 

19 was it your reaction that based on these earlier cables 

20 that this was something that Secord might have been 

21 involved in, or did this reaction reach you later in the 

22 process? 

23 A It reached me later in the process. I didn't 

24 know whether it was connected or not. 

25 Q Okay. 




624 



16 

1 A But obviously I knew it was being run out of 

2 the White House. In other words. Colonel North was 

3 inquiring, he was apparently desperate. He needed 

4 transport, which was the way it was presented to me. 

5 Q So I gather based on the previous information 

6 that you had suggestion of North, suggested the possible 

7 involvement of Secord? 

8 A Right. 

9 Q All right. Now from that point you had this 

10 conversation with Mr. Clarridge and you gave him your 

11 opinion on the availability of the proprietary for any 

12 commercial venture. 

13 A Right. Now bear in mind what he was asking. 

14 It was perfectly clear in my mind. It was a very short 

15 conversation with Mr. Clarridge and he was — there was 

16 no attempt to ask for assistance beyond ^tm the naming or 

17 suggesting of a commercial carrier that could be leased 

18 by the White House. There was no suggestion that we 

19 needed to commit people, money or anything else. And Mr. 

20 Clarridge gave me the distinct impression that he was 

21 reacting as a friend of Mr. North's in this particular 

22 case, that he wasn't being tasked offically to come up 
2 3 with this, but that he was attempting to help Colonel 

24 North out of a tough spot. 

25 Q And based on that limited understanding you 



I 




625 



IIN£liSSKfl 



17 



1 gave your advice? 

2 A Right. 

3 Q Now, having given your advice — I gather this 

4 all took place at the agency? 

5 A It was right in my office. 

6 Q This, I gather, did not come back to your 

7 attention later that day? 

8 A No. Well, except later that working day. 

9 Q Okay . 

10 A In other words, then we go into the telephone 

11 call from Lieutenant Colonel North at my house. 

12 Q Okay. Why don't we proceed to that? You 

13 received a telephone call from Colonel North. 

14 Approximately when was that? 

15 A Well, it was about 8:00 that evening as I was 

16 sitting around at home, and Colonel North indicated to me 

17 that la he tried to get in touch with Mr. George and I 

18 mentioned to him that Mr. George was out of town on leave 

19 or something, I don't remember exactly. And Colonel 

20 North then proceeded to give me the same basic story that 

21 Mr. Clarridge had given me, namely that he was desperate, 

22 he needed transport and he had inquired of Mr. Clarridge 

23 and Mr. Clarridge had apparently gotten back to him. 

24 And I mentioned to Colonel North, because this 

25 was an open black line — you know. Colonel North was a 



UNCLISSm 



626 



UNf^MH 



18 



1 very secure person and so we did not engage in any 

2 lengthy banter about anything. I mean it was a very 

3 cryptic conversation. And I essentially told him, I said 

4 look I've already explained it to Dewey Clarridge and if 

5 you people are that hard up and you need to charter an 

6 aircraft, I mean this is a commercial enterprise, you can 

7 go out and put your money on the table and charter the 

8 airplane. He asked me for no specific assistance. 

9 Nothing further came from him. He just said thank you 

10 and hung up. 

11 ^ Okay. Let me just touch on a of couple points 

12 in this conversation. 

13 A He was not used to dealing with me, first. In 

14 other words, I had only had about two conversations with 

15 Colonel North before this time. 

16 Q Okay, that was one of the questions. 

17 A And he was obviously very ill at ease because 

18 he had to talk to me rather than to Mr. George, with whom 

19 he was accustomed to dealing, and I think he knew that he 
2 would certainly feel more comfortable had he been able to 

21 deal with Clair George. 

22 Q But you were in a position, I gather, that you 

23 could recognize his voice, is that correct? 

24 A Oh, yes. He identified himself. 

25 Q And you were able to satisfy yourself that it 



EO 



627 



ufteKW 



19 



1 was North and not somebody else impersonating North based 

2 on at least prior conversations with him and your 

3 recognition of his voice, and also on his knowledge of 

4 your conversation with Mr. Clarridge. 

5 A Yes. 

6 Q So you had no doubt that it was North you were 

7 talking to? 

8 A Right. 

9 Q So at this point North rings off. Is that the 

10 end of the your involvement with the activity for that 

11 day? . 

12 A That was the end of that day. 

13 Q All right. Now, when do you next come back 

14 into the November '83, excuse me, November '85 flight? 

15 A The next day I brought this to the attention 

16 of John McMahon, who was the Deputy Director. 

17 Q Okay. Now do you recall that next day, I 

18 believe, was a Saturday? Is that your recollection? 

19 A Yes. 

20 Q Okay. Now could you describe to me how it is 

21 that you bring this to the attention of Deputy Director 

22 McMahon? 

23 A Right. As a rule John McMahon would always 

24 pop around when he was on duty on Saturdays, and come 

25 around to see if anything was happening in the 




628 




IfWW 

1 Directorate of Operations. And we had our usual 

2 conversation about interesting things and I mentioned to 

3 John McMahon that I had. the phone call from Colonel North 

4 the evening before and I said, John, guess what? The NSC 

5 want to charter our airplane. 

6 Q Now, did you have or did he have a reaction to 

7 that? 

8 A Yes. He stopped, paused, became very 

9 contemplative and left, left my office. 

10 Q He had no rejoinder for that? 

11 A No, I think it probably it seemed to anyway, 

12 and here I am talking a little bit for John McMahon, 

13 which is probably unfair. It seemed to me that he was a 

14 bit surprised by the the announcement. And, as is usual 

15 with John, he just went back to contemplate it for a 

16 while. 

17 Q Now, following that encounter with Mr. McMahon 

18 did this item again come up? 

19 A Yes. He came back to me afterwards and 

2 indicated that under the circumstances, and in view of 

21 the fact that the NSC had come to us and in all 

22 probability would come back to us at some point — this 

23 was the first — my understanding was from John that this 

24 was the first time that they had actually asked for any 

2 5 type of assistance. And McMahon being the very 



629 



uHtiAssra 



21 



1 shrewd guy he is figured that if this is the first effort 

2 in all probability there may be other siti^uations where 

3 we will be called upon to assist them in this particular 

4 venture and under the circumstances he came back and he 

5 ■ told me, he says, I think that we need a Presidential 

6 Finding before we can do anything further. 

7 And he said I would appreciate it if you would 

8 send a couple of officers to brief Stanley Sporkin, our 

9 general counsel, on what we know of this entire situation 

10 and get Stanley Sporkin's reaction. 

11 Q And I gather you did that, is that correct? 

12 A Yes. 

13 Q Who did you pick to brief Mr. Sporkin? 

14 A Well my recollection ^^^^^^^^Hj^^H ^^ ^^^ 

15 the deputy chief of our Near East division at the time. 

16 Q And was it just^^^Bor someone else? 

17 A I don't recall. I think that probably it was 

18 someone else but I am not sure. ^^H may have taken 

19 someone else with him. 

20 Q Now was ^^^^^^^^Hin the building? Was this 

21 something you were able to do right away? 

22 A Oh, yes. Well, he was not in the building on 

23 Saturday. No, I got to him on Monday. 

24 Q So this was your understanding was that this 

25 was something that could wait at least until Monday? 



liCLKSlFIED 



630 



DNCttSStm 



22 



1 A Oh, yes. Also, I mean, you know, I don't 

2 )cnow. I was informed subsequently that the aircraft, the 

3 agency proprietary airplane which had been chartered, had 

4 not actually flown to Tel Aviv or from Israel to Iran 

5 until the 25th. So if anyone was particularly exercised 

6 over this whole thing there was certainly time on 

7 Saturday to send a message out to stop the flight. 

8 Q Okay. In a sense that anticipates my next 

9 question. Following this conversation with Mr. McMahon 

10 when he returned to your office and had given you his 

11 opinion on the Finding necessity, did the flight come 

12 back to your attention on the 23rd? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Okay. When did it next come to your 

15 attention? 

16 A Actually it did not come to my attention for, 

17 until I went back in to collect my thoughts and the facts 

18 before the SSCI testimony. 

19 ' Q And that would have been 1986. 

20 A Yeah. Because I had no reason to make any 

21 inquiries really as about the flight — whether it had 

22 actually taken place, what was on board, so on and so 

23 forth. I was not one of those privleged few who were 

24 privy to this activity. Now, I noted in the Tower Report 

25 from one of Mr. North's memos that there were very very 





631 



uiMsn 



23 



1 few people who were briefed on the activity. It was a 

2 very highly compartmented activity and I was not one of 

3 those who was within that compartn.ent. 

4 Q Why don't we turn then to Monday morning? I 

5 ' think that would be November 25? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q In pursuit of Mr. McMahon's instructions I 

8 gather you tasked^f^^^^^^Hto go brief Mr. Sporkin. 

9 A Yes. 

10 9 Now, do you bring^^^^^^^^^into your 

11 office? How does this work? 

12 A God, I wish I could recall exactly, but I 

13 would suspect that I did. I don't recall exactly, but I 

14 think I asked^^Hto come down and told him what had 

15 transpired over the Saturday with the Deputy Director and 

16 asked him to get whatever material he could and go over 

17 and talk to Stan Sporkin. 

18 Q Now let me just backtrack to Saturday for a 

19 minute. We now know that there was some cable traffic 

20 coming back to Mr. Clarridge both on the 22nd and the 

21 23rd and I think even after that on the problems that 

22 this flight is encountering in its efforts to get 

23 clearance in other countries, so on and so forth. 

24 Was any of that coming to your attention? 

25 A No. I read about that orii^-*fterwards. 




632 




U 




^, ^^^ .. 24 

1 Q Now, explain to me how that would work. These 

2 cables are coining out ^^^^^^^| they're coming into 

3 headquarters. Would this be something that your 

4 screeners would be reading? 

5 A I can't say because I don't know what channel 

6 they used for that particular cable traffic. It's 

7 entirely conceivable that Clarridge used his own privacy 

8 channel, in which case we would not get copies. 

9 Q Okay. Why don't you explain that to me? How 

10 would the privacy work? 

11 A Every division chief has a privacy channel 

12 with his — am I allowed to talk about that? 

13 MR. STILES: I don't think it is a problem. 

14 BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

15 Q Go ahead. 

16 A Every division has the ability to communicate 

17 on a private channel between himself with his station 

By using m^^f^^^^^^^H^^^Hon a 

19 cable as soon as that cable comes into the cable center 

20 they tha^^^^^^^^^alerts the disseminators, the - 

21 distributors, to the fact that that is a division chief 

22 only privacy channel and its dissemination is according 

23 to a prescribed schedule that the division chief outlines 

24 beforehand. 

25 Q Now. Is that ^^^^^^Halso known as 




633 



w 



1 A Yeah. 




|awc 



25 



2 Q SO, is it the division chief who controls the 

3 flow of that that is coming in? 

4 A Privacy traffic? He doesn't control it 

5 himself. The cable secretary controls it because it all 

6 comes into the cable secretary. 

7 Q So who would be on the distribution list? 

8 Let's assume the most limited distribution list of a 

9 division chief on his privacy channel. 

10 A God. That I don't know. 

11 Q Would there be a way, for example, to exclude 

12 the Deputy Director or the Director? 

13 A Unlikely, unlikely, because we saw an awful 

14 lot — well, you know there were situations were we did 

15 not see the privacy traffic. I mean, I know of many, 

16 many instances when cable traffic, there was 

17 correspondence with station chiefs which the directorate 

18 — the DDO's office knew nothing about. And we were 

19 first alerted to it by some cable that might have come in 

20 in open traffic and then we would have to call back down 

21 and ask them to give us a dump on all this stuff. Maybe 

22 in Tom's time it might have been slightly different. 

23 MR. POLGAR: Off the record. 

24 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

25 BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 




mm 



634 



Aril ?«,-'■' 






26 



1 Q I gather that is true also of even in 

2 succeeding days. You didn't see a compilation of cable 

3 traffic that had come in on the 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th on 

4 this matter, is that right? 

5, A No. Keep in mind that by that time Clair 

6 George was back and in charge and I was relegated back to 

7 my associate job again. 

8 Q Okay. Let me now turn to the tasking of^^H| 
^^^^^^^^^ You brought^^^^^^HBkinto your 

10 best you recall, and what did you tell him about what had 

11 transpired? 

12 A I told him the entire thing — my 

13 conversations with Mr. Clarridge, my conversations with 

14 John McMahon, my conversation with Colonel North and the 

15 instructions that I had gotten from McMahon. 

16 Q And what marching orders did you give him? 

17 A Told him to go over a brief Sporkin on 

18 everything he knew. 

19 Q Was he then to report back to you? 

20 A No. I suspected that he would have reported 

21 back to Clair George. 

22 Q And Mr. George was back when? 

23 AX believe that Tuesday, so that would have 
2 4 been the 2 6th. 

25 Q Do you recall attending a meeting on December 



635 



^imm 




1 5, 1985 in Mr. McMahon's office? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q With Mr. Ga.tes and 
^^Hp^^^^H andl 

5 A Yes. I remember being there because John was 

6 preparing to go down to an NSC meeting, I think. 

7 Q Let me ask you first what you recall about it 

8 and after I do that I have a memorandum that you may want 

9 to review to see if it refreshes your recollection, but 

10 without looking at the memorandum, what do you recall of 

11 that meeting? 

12 A Really not too terribly much except the sense • 

13 was that I believe we discussed whatever knowledge we had 

14 of this whole Iranian matter. We discussed Ghorbanifar, 

15 I believe, for sure, because we again pointed out to 

16 McMahon that we had had negative traces on Ghorbanifar 

17 and we ventured some personal opinions about Mr. 

18 Ghorbanifar which we were hoping that Mr. McMahon could 

19 raise with the principals at the NSC meeting because he 

20 was sitting in for Bill Casey, as I recall, who vas in 
^^^^^Hat the 

22 Q Let me ask you, before you proceed, when you 

23 say we share our negative feelings about him, I gather 

24 that includes you and who else? 

25 A I can't remember exactly, but other people in 



Ui 



1*^^« 



636 



;,,. ..^t^l 



P^l^en4:(tfev»o 28 



1 attendance there who were briefed on our file holdings on 

2 Mr. Ghorbanifar shared our views about him, namely that 

3 he was the type of an individual that the Agency would 

4 absolutely have nothing to do with. 

5 Q And it was your understanding that 

6 Ghordbanifar was likely to be an item on the meeting that 

7 Mr. McMahon was preparing for? 

8 A No. I didn't understand that specifically but 

9 since were obviously the meeting was called to discuss 

10 the entire matter and John was looking for facts for 

11 anything actually that he should raise at the meeting. 

12 And one of our strongest objections consistently had been 

13 to the use of Ghorbanifar as an intermediary. 

14 Q Do you recall yourself having raised the 

15 Ghorbanifar question? Did you bring your own knowledge 

16 to Mr. McMahon 's attention? 

17 A I don't if I raised it or somebody else raised 

18 it but I certainly added my voice to it. 

19 Q Now, let me back you up on the subject of 

20 Ghorbanifar. You testified that a file review had been 

21 done of Ghorbanifar. Is that right? 

22 A Yes. 

23 Q Presumably that means a review of his 201 

24 file? Is that right? 

25 A Yes. 

r/CODEWORD 



W\ 



637 




1 Q Do you recall how it was that file review came 

2 about? 

3 A Yes. Someone -- and I can't remember whether 

4 it was Director Casey or McMahon — brought up the name 

5 of Ghorbanifar with me on one occasion. I can't recall 

6 the context or anything. But I, following this meeting 

7 at which Ghorbanifar ' s name came up, I immediately went 

8 in and asked for a file trace on Ghorbanifar. 

9 Q Do you recall who it was that ended up doing 

10 the tracing? 

11 A Oh, yes. I remember that^^^^^^^^^^came up 

12 with Ghorbanifar 's file. It wasn't a very extensive 

13 file, but I mean it contained enough information in there 

14 to let us know that the individual wasn't really thought 

15 of very highly by the Agency. 

16 Q It's a pretty extensive file now. 

17 A And further my recollection is, and I wish I 

18 could be more specific as to timing, but my recollection 

19 is that this this occured before my conversation with 

2 Clarridge, so it's certainly before November 22nd and I 

21 recall having suggested to^^^^^^^^^^ — or maybe it was 

22 even stronger than that — told^^^^^^^^f he should 

23 brief Colonel North on the Ghorbanifar, on the 

24 information concerning Ghorbanifar that was in our file. 

25 Q Okay. Let me ask you on the subject of 






638 





30 

1 Ghorbanifar, at the time you suggest or requested this 

2 file review, did you have an understanding as to what 

3 Ghorbanifar was being contemplated for? 

4 A Yes. I had, somehow. I don't kno* whether- I 

5 was told or I was led to believe that Ghorbanifar was the 

6 individual who was being met by Colonel North and was the 

7 intermediary to so-called Iranian moderates. 

8 Q Did you know at the time that this was brought 

9 to your attention whether Colonel North had met with him 

10 yet or was he about to meet with him? 

11 A I 'm not sure. 

12 Q And I gather that this came to your attention 

13 through either the Director or Deputy Director? 

14 A That is my recollection. 

15 Q To your best recollection, when might this 

16 have come to your attention from either the Director or 

17 the Deputy Director? 

18 A My suspicion was probably was sometime 

19 September, October '85. 

20 Q Now when you sent^^f^^^^^^^^down to pick up 

21 this file ~ 

22 A I didn't send him down. The files are in 

23 central repository, he obviously had someone run the name 

24 through the registry and someone brought him the file and 

25 so he came up with the file. 



umbmiFtED 



639 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



31 

Q Now, did you review it together? 

A No, he had reviewed it but he gave me sort of 
a precis of what the file contained. And having — once 
he told me wha*. it contained we immediately went into 
John McMahon and briefed John McMahon. 

Q Now, you said that you believe that you 
directed^^^^^^^^^Bto brief Colonel North. 

A I either told him to go down as soon as he 

could or on the next occasion when he was down at the NSC 

discussing whatever it is that he discussed with Colonel 

North, I told him to be sure to bring to his attention 

what we had in our files on Ghorbanifar. 

n 
Q Now, was that instruction give.before or after 

the meeting with Mr. McMahon? 

A I can't recall. I think it was probably 
after. 

Q Now, when you went in to brief Mr. McMahon, 
|came with you, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

Q What do you recall about the substance of that 
meeting? 

A Well, essentiall^^^^ft told John McMahon 
exactly what he had told me and a little discussion 
ensued after that at which we questioned the wisdom of 
the entire undertaking. 



DlfKAmifl) 



640 



attAA* -EgJE'^qrtpevCRCII 32 



1 Q What did you understand the undertaking to be 

2 at that point? 

3 A The undertaking to be that the NSC was seeking 

4 ways of establishing contacts with Iranians to try and 

5 arrange for the release of the American hostages. 

6 Q And I gather at this point you did not have an 

7 understanding as to whether this also included the 

8 shipment of military hardware to Iran. 

9 A I had no idea. 

10 Q Mr. Juchniewicz, I'm going to show you three 

11 documents which bear for record identification purposes 

12 the following identifying numbers. The first in the 

13 series that I will give is the identifier applied to the 

14 document by the CIA and the second that I will give with 

15 be the identifying number applied to the document applied 

16 by the Senate Select Committee. 

17 The first document that I am going to show to 

18 you is, appears to be a cable dated July 12, 1985. It 

19 bears the CIA identifier CIIN 1032 and the Senate 

20 Identifier C 1475. The second document which I will show 

21 you right on the heels of this is CIIN 1033, Senate 

22 Identifier C 1476, and the third document I am going to 

23 show you bears the identifier CIIN 1034, Senate 

24 Identifier C 1477. 

25 MS. MCNEIL): What are the dates on those 



jmm 



641 




33 

1 documents? 

2 THE WITNESS: One is, the document itself is 

3 11 July 1985. 

4 MS. HUGHES: Which one is that? 

5 THE WITNESS: It's the memorandum CIIN 1033. 

6 And then the other, the cable is 12 July '85, that is 

7 CIIN 1032, and 1034 is 9 July '85. 

8 BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

9 Q Have you had an opportunity to review these 

10 three documents? 

11 A Yes, I have. 

12 Q - Did these documents show up, if you recall, in 

13 your review of the Ghorbanifar 201 file, which you 

14 believe is the fall of '85? 

15 A Since I didn't review the file I can't say. 

16 Q Do you recall information like that contained 

17 in these documents being brought to your attention in 

18 your assessment of the veracity and reliability of Mr. 

19 Ghorbanifar? 

20 A Yes, I do. 

21 Q Would that have been relayed to you by^^ 

22 ^^^^^^Hfol lowing his review of the file? 

23 A Yes. 

24 (Pause.) 

25 Your point being -- I am missing your point? 



S 



642 



DMWSSlfJlll 



1 Q Well — 

2 A I'm not trying to vague or obtuse. 

3 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

4 BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

5 Q Mr. Juchniewicz, you have had an opportunity 

6 to review the three exhibits that I have identified 

7 previously for the record; is that correct? 

8 A Yes, I have. 

9 Q Now, those exhibits describe inquiries on the 

10 subject of Manucher Ghorbanifar and his possible roles 

11 facilitating in the release of hostages back in July of 

12 1985. Do you recall that information being brought to 

13 your attention when you asked for the review of the 201 

14 file in the fall of "85? 

15 A Yes, I believe so. 

16 Q And do you recall who it was who would have 

17 brought that to your attention? 

13 A Yes. I believe it probably was 

19 Q Kow. Dic^^^^^^^^^^for anyone else in your 

20 review of Ghorbanifar ' s status in the fall of '85 

21 demonstrate any first-hand familiarity with the -subject 

22 of those exhibits? 

23 A No. No, not that I can recall. 

24 Q Now, following your meeting wi 

25 your testimony is that you and 



Ult! 




643 



Ef<|R|j 3 5 

1 briefed Mr. McMahon on what you had found in the 

2 Ghorbanifar 201. 

3 A Right. 

4 Q Do you recall what Mr. McMahon 's reaction was 

5 to the information that you imparted to him? 

6 A Yes. He was highly incensed. 

7 Q And why would that be? 

8 A Well, I don't why it would be, but I mean he 

9 was obviously disturbed by the fact that someone in the 

10 U.S. government would see fit to deal with an individual 

11 like Ghorbanifar in light of what the CIA had in its 

12 files on him. 

13 Q Now, did you feel the need or did Mr. McMahon 

14 feel the need to take this information any higher than 

15 himself? 

16 AX believe he did take it higher. I believe he 

17 suggested to me that he had briefed the Director. 

18 Q Okay. Let me try and parse that a bit. Did 

19 he tell you at the time you briefed him that he had 

20 already briefed the Director? 

21 A No. But he told me afterwards. 

22 Q Okay. So some time later he affirmed to you 

23 that he had brought that information to the attention of 

24 the Director? 

25 A Right. 



lOHssfe 



644 



11 




36 



1 Q And would that have been a short time later? 

2 A Yes. I would suspect it would have been 

3 shortly after the Director — well, I can't remember the 

4 time frame now. Yes. It would have been a short time 

5 • after, you know, within a week or so. 

6 Q Now you also testified that you directed^^^H 

7 ^^^^^^Hto advise Lieutenant Colonel North of the 

8 discovery in the Ghorbanifar 201 file? 

9 A Yes . 

10 Q Do you know whether he did that? 

11 A Yes. ^^Hmentioned to me at some point later 

12 that he had briefed Colonel North. 

13 Q And do you recall approximately what that 

14 would have been in relation to in temis of time? 

15 A When it would have been - I would suspect 

16 within 10 days or so after our discussion. 

17 Q Did he tell you what North's reaction was to 

18 the information? 

19 A The only thing that I can recall is apparently 

20 there was very little reaction. I was surprised by the 

21 nonreaction, let's say. 

22 Q I gather you were anticipating an expression 

23 of gratitude and we will not deal with this person again? 

24 Is that correct? 

25 A Yes. I was expecting that someone would come 



yicm^ra 



645 



1 

2 
3 
4 

5 
6" 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UNWSfi 



to us and consult with us further on Mr. Ghorbanifar to 
try to establish who this individual really was and what 
the professionals, opinions were about Mr. Ghorbanifar, 
which did not happen. 

Did^^^^^^m^o^g back and impart to you 
any understanding on his part that Lieutenant Colonel 
North had already engaged himself with Mr. Ghorbanifar? 

A No. No, he did not. The only thing, he came 
back and reported that he had duly briefed Colonel North 
and commented about the nonreaction. 
.Q So it was a nonreaction ii 
as well? Is that right? 
A Yes. 

Q Let me now return to the subject of the 
meeting on December 5th. what I am about to show you is 
a document that does not bear a CIA Identifier Number; 
however, I will describe it for the record. it it 
prefaced by a cover sheet which bears the title, John 
McMahon's notepad, reference to December 5, 1985, ' 
approval of Finding related to NSC project. Then there 
is below that a date 28 November '86 MFrM^H^^^^ 
It bears our Identifier Number of I 0395 through I 0398. 

The cover sheet is followed by a document 
entitled. Memorandum for the Record dated November 28, 
1986 and it is a three-page document which begins with 



HMSIFIED 



646 



Htft^® 



38 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



the prefatory paragraph, "The following is a 
reconstruction of cryptic notes that I have from a 
December 5, 1985 meeting in DDCI John McMahon's office," 
and so forth. 

Would you, if you would sir, take a look at 
that memorandum and take your time. 

(A discussion was held off the record.) 

Q I would like to note for the record that upon 
perusal by the eagled-eyed representatives of the CIA 
legal $taff and legislative liaison a CIIN number has . 
been found for this document, it is CIIN 11. Now, having 
reviewed this document, Mr. Juchniewicz, do you have a 
clearer recollection of the meeting on December 5th? 

A Not really. 

Q Let me then direct your attention to some 
specific topics and see if this brings back any, or see 
whether this registered in your memory banks. Do you 
recall the subject matters that were requested as 
covering the political scene in Iran, dissension, unrest, 
and so on? 

A Yes. 

Q And do you recall the matter of the biography 



A No, I do not. 

Q Let me skip down to this salient entry. This 




647 



imSLISSSHIB 



39 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



is put in the form of a question. Was it true that Iran 
was trying to get U.S. KAWK missiles to knock-out Soviet 
BEAR aircraft over Iran on the Iran/Iraq border? Do you 
recall that being a topic at all? 

A No. Not at all. 

Q Now on the second page there is a review of a 
presentation attributed to| 

A Yes, who was Mr. Clarridge's deputy at the 
time. 

Q Now that review includes among other things. a 
reference to what had been done so far. The first entry 
there is one plane load has been sent to the Iranians on 
24 November, we did not know it included HAWK missiles. 
Do you recall that presentation ^^^^^^^^^^^l^^ ^^^ ^"'^ 
whether it included that within the presentation? 

A No. My recollection is that he might, 
probably gave an accounting of that November flight and 
things that he was aware of, but my recollection is that 



was not as au ^WHMwt of activities as Mr. 
Clarridge, so I don't recall any real specifics that he 
might have gotten into. 

Q Okay. Let my phrase the question a little 
differently. If the plane that was directed to Iran did 
in fact contain HAWK missiles and that was made known at 
the meeting within a week or 10 days of the event, would 



648 



BNfii^Saf© 



40 



1 that have been a noteworthy thing in your mind? 

2 A Oh, sure. 

3 Q And, I gather you don't have, however, a 

4 specific recollection of the plane being linked to an 

5 " arroament shipment in this meeting, is that correct? 

6 A Not in that meeting, I don't, no. 

7 Q Do you recall the, as part ofl 

8 presentation that Lieutenant Colonel North was going to 

9 London for discussions and that the following week he was 

10 arranging for up to 5 plane loads including 747s? 

11 A No, that doesn't bring back any recollection. 

12 Q How about any reference to a Presidential 
"13 Finding? Do you recall that coming up at this meeting? 

14 A Hope. 

15 Q Do you recall any reference being made at this 

16 meeting to the release of Reverend Weir or "one plane 

17 load"? 

18 A Can I go off the record for a minute? 

19 (A discussion was held off the record.) 

20 BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

21 Q Another reference that appears in here as part 

22 of the discussion was that key players in this Iran 

23 initiative were Kimche and "the private U.S. citizen 

24 Interlocutor". Do you recall either of those two names 

25 coming up? 



i^ii §Li 



649 



ONCl^SlfliD 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



A 
meeting. 

point? 



No, I don't recall that coming up at that 

MS. MC NEIL:' Can we go off the record at this 



(A discussion was held off the record.) 
BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

Q What I'm going to do first, Mr. Juchniewicz, 
is ask you if you could summarize your collective memory 
of a series of meetings and if you would single out the 
three -points that you know for certain were the subjects 
or were involved as subjects of those meetings. And I 
believe one would be, for example, Mr, Ghorbanifar. 

A Right. I recall that on several occasions at 
least I and possibly others from the Directorate of 
Operations discussed several points with DDCI. One of 
the points that we discussed in extenso with him was Mr. 
Ghorbanifar and our absolute abhorrence over the fact 
that anybody in the U.S. government would deal with an 
individual with a reputation of Mr. Ghorbanifar. 

Number two, I registered my dismay oyer the 
fact that the Israelis were selling arms to the Iranians. 
And I said that this went absolutely at cross purposes 
with U.S. po] 




650 



42 

1 said it was just absolutely the inconceivable that the 

2 U.S. government would stand for something like that. 

3 The other point I remember discussing was the 

4 deliberation of possible sale of arms by the U.S. 

5 government to the Iranians. And I found this totally 

6 inconsistent with U.S. policy at the time and reflected 

7 that to Mr. McMahon and I heard from Mr. MaiMahon in 

8 subsequent conversations that he reflected these very 

9 same views to the Director. 

10 Q Now, let me back up to the December 5th 

11 meeting. I gather from your recollection these three 

12 topics that you just described: Ghorbanifar, the Israeli 

13 sale to Iran, and the possibility of U.S. sales to Iran 

14 may have arisen at this meeting but you don't have a 

15 specific recollection that they did? Is that correct? 

16 A That's true. 

17 Q And I gather it is also your recollection that 

18 it is possible that these topics were not raised at this 

19 meeting but were raised at some subsequent meeting 

20 instead, is that correct? 

21 A Yes, that is correct. But definitely they 

22 were raised in my mind with the DDCI. 

23 Q Okay. Let me ask you a different question 

24 with respect to these three topics. Do you recall 

25 briefing the DDCI for a Saturday meeting in this time 

ii 



HNCDSSSm 



651 



ONetfte«t 



43 



1 frame? 

2 A Yes. 

3 Q And with respect to that briefing whenever it 

4 may have occurred do you recall that these three topics 

5 were raised? 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q Now let me ask you to see if you can recall 

8 whether this information which you brought to the DDCI's 

9 attention whether you got any information back from him 

10 as to whether he had presented these views to a higher 

11 authority and whether there was any reaction to the 

12 presentation of these views. 

13 A My recollection is that Mr. McMahon was 

14 equally incensed over all these items and that he had 

15 mentioned to me that he had discussed these very freely 

16 with the Director and his own reservations and concerns. 

17 Q Now, did he tell you whether or what the 

18 Director's reaction was to his sharing this information? 

19 A He did not. 

20 Q Do you have any understanding as to the rough 

21 time period of this exchange between you and Mr. McMahon. 

22 A Yes. I would say anytime from the latter part 
2 3 of November through December of '85. 

24 Q Now, were you aware at all that in December of 

25 1985 that arrangements were being made and, in fact. 



ijNfitmiFffi 



652 




44 

1 ultimately were consumated, that resulted in a meeting 

2 between Mr. Ghorbanifar and Robert McFarlane? 

3 A I knew that the arrangements — I was aware of 

4 the fact that such arrangements were being made. 

5 Q How did that come to your attention? 

6 A Well, again I'm not terribly sure but I 

7 believe that they were mentioned to me by Mr. McMahon. 

8 Q Now would this information being imparted to 

9 you by Mr. McMahon have been the occasion for another 

10 opportunity for you to express your view of Mr. 

11 Ghorbanifar? 

12 A Yes, but, my feeling was that John was 

13 perfectly aware of what my views were and they were 

14 shared by him. So, you know, it was something that we 

15 didn't really have to dwell on. 

16 Q Did you have an understanding as to whether or 

17 what the purpose was for Mr. McFarlane to go and visit 

18 with Mr. Ghorbanifar. 

19 A Yeah, my understanding, again having been told 

20 to me informally by Mr. McMahon, was that eventually Mr. 

21 McFarlane would be the principal U.S. government 

22 representative to talk to the Iranians in Tehran. 

23 Q And this would be assuming that Mr. 

24 Ghorbanifar as a middle man was able to put the United 

25 States in contact with Tehran based officials. 



UNCCOFIED 



653 



45 

1 A Exactly, assuming of course that you know in 

2 our minds that Ghorbanifar (a) had these contacts and (b) 

3 he was able to convince them of the wisdom of meeting 

4 with a senior U.S. government executive. 

5 Q Now did you become aware at any point, let's 

6 limit this first to the time frame of December, did you 

7 become aware at any point of Mr. Ghorbanifar actually 

8 coming to the United States? 

9 A You know I read about that after, in other 

10 words I was not aware, I don't believe I was aware at the 

11 time of his coming to the United States. My impression 

12 was that the meetings with Ghorbanifar were all outside 

13 the U.S. But I have read in the Tower Commission Report 

14 and in other reports that he came to the U.S. and was 

15 administered a polygraph in the United States. 

16 Q Let me separate those two events. You are 

17 unaware that he came to the United States in December and 

18 I gather from the way you just responded to this question 

19 you were also unaware that he came to the United States 

20 in January and was administered a polygraph. 

21 A I cannot recall those, being aware of those 

22 visits. 

23 Q Do you recall any decision coming out of 

24 either your branch or out of say |^^^^^^|^|^H area to 

25 cut off, to affirmatively cut off contact with 



m 



654 



IJlMffl 



46 



1 Ghorbanifar, and let me put this in the time frame of 

2 January, 1986. 

3 A Let me structure this for you because the 

4 dates are not clear in my mind. But I remember an 

5 episode where we were in the Directorate of Operations 

6 were approached by Charlie Allen. And Charlie, in 

7 effect, was trying to, on behalf of Colonel North, was 

8 trying to get some assistance from the Directorate to 

9 have our representatives overseas meet with Ghorbanifar 

10 whenever he called in. Apparently he had some method for 

11 contacting Colonel North. 

12 Having established this contact they wondered 

13 whether one of our overseas representatives could talk to 

14 Ghorbanifar and debrief him and I remember very clearly 

15 Mr. George telling Charlie that the Directorate of 

16 Operations would have absolutely nothing to do with Mr. 

17 Ghorbanifar and that if anybody wanted to meet with 

18 Ghorbanifar they were free to travel on their own to meet 

19 with them, but that the Directorate of Operations would 

20 play no part in it whatsoever. 

21 Q Do you have any recollection as to 

22 approximately the time frame of this exchange? 

23 A No, I do not, but I do remember, it stands out 

24 very clearly in my mind because apparently it came at a 

25 point when there was a certain amount of disillusionment 



655 




47 

1^ 

1 in Mr. Ghorbanifar by all the principals who were 

2 involved at the time and it was obvious to us that what 

3 they were attempting to do was to palm Mr. Ghorbanifar 

4 off on us and have us, the Directorate the Operations, 

5 get involved in the hand holding and we wanted no part of 

6 it. 

7 Q Okay. Let me back you up on that a little 

8 bit. You left the Agency as of May 3, '86 and you were 

9 winding down as of mid April '86. Is that correct? 

10 A Right. My replacement had been designated and 

11 I was already phasing out. 

12 Q Now. This conversation that you have just 

13 described, did it take place during that period? 

14 A No. It took place earlier, my recollection 

15 is. 

16 Q Now. Let me try and approach this in a 

17 different way. You mentioned, and I believe this was not 

18 placed on the record, but let me ask you to place it on 

19 the record, you mentioned at one point that you became 

20 aware of information that the United States was preparing 

21 to, in addition to arms, transfer intelligence to Iran. 

22 Do you recall what time frame it was that you learned 

23 that information? 

24 A No, I can't remember the exact time frame, but 

25 I would suspect it had to be within the January to March 



656 



iia^ffi'* 



43 



1 time frame, January to March 1986. And I was advised of 

2 that by, I believe^^^^^^^^^^^ who had actually been 

3 instructed by someone. to prepare such information for 

4 passage to the Iranians. 

5 ^^^H|^^^^^Hcame to me and was outraged that 

6 he would have been instructed to do something like that. 

7 When I heard^^^^^^^^Bstory I was equally outraged and I 

8 remember having a discussion with Mr. McMahon either that 

9 very, same day or sometime after that to register our 

10 collective objection to the preparation and passage of_ 

11 intelligence to the Iranians. 

12 Q Did he share your objection? 

13 A Yes. 

14 Q Do you know what steps he took to satisfy 

15 himself that this was in accordance with policy? 

16 A He, to my recollection Mr. McMahon discussed 

17 this with the people at the NSC and voiced his objections 

18 there as well. 

19 Q Do you know whether he consulted with the 

20 Director on it? 

21 A I'm not sure. You know, somehow in my mind I 

22 seem to recall the Director also being equally upset over 

23 passing intelligence to the Iranians. 

24 Q If that is your recollection that would have 

25 been conveyed back to you from Mr. McMahon. 



y 



657 



Yes. 



49 



1 A 

2 Q Were you aware at the point that this 

3 information was conveyed to you by^^^^^H^^HRon 

4 intelligence whether a presidential Finding had been 

5 signed to cover this area? 

6 A The passage of intelligence? 

7 Q Right. 

8 A Or the entire Iran episode? 

9 Q Well, let's approach it, first with the 

10 intelligence. Were you aware of whether a Finding would 

11 have encompassed this passage of intelligence? 

12 A No, I don't believe it would have encompassed 

13 passing intelligence. I don't remember the exact wording 

14 of the Finding because I've never seen the Finding, and, 

15 you know, we had only preliminary discussions about such 

16 a Finding. But my recollection is that there was nothing 

17 in there specifically authorizing or calling for the 

18 passage of intelligence. 

19 Q Okay. Let me ask the question a little 

20 differently. Were you, at the time^^^^^^^^^^brought 

21 to your attention the prospective passage of 

22 intelligence, aware of whether or not a Finding did exist 

23 on the subject of Iran, of the Iran initiative? 

24 A I had been told by Mr. McMahon that he had 

25 been assured that a Finding had been signed. And he 



658 




50 

1 mentioned this to me, I believe, sometime in early 

2 December. 

3 <2 Now, let me back up to that. If your 

4 recollection is that Mr. McMahon told you in early 

5 December that a Finding had been signed did you have any 

6 understanding as to whether that Finding was at all 

7 related to the November '85 flight? 

8 A I did not. 

9 Q I gather that you have subsequently become 

10 aware that there was a Finding signed in the middle of 

11 January of '86. 

12 A - January 17, yes. 

13 Q Do you recall having any discussions with 

14 anyone about that Finding? 

15 A No. I did not have any discussions. There 

16 was one aspect of the Finding that I did have, I 

17 discussed I believe with several people, perhaps 

18 including the general counsel, Stanley Sporkin, and the 

19 discussion had to do with that part of the Finding which 
2 instructed the DCI to delay the briefing of Congress. 

21 Q And how did that, how did that subject arise? 

22 A I think he just apprised me of the fact that 

23 this was added into the Finding. 

24 Q I gather then in bringing that to your 

2 5 attention — and that was Mr. Sporkin himself who did 



mmm 



659 



4 



7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 



15 
16 
17 
18 



I 51 

%rR a VSi-j l4J«Jlia II I 

1 that? 

2 A I think so. 

3 Q He must have assumed that you already had some 
understanding that there was a Finding in the works or 

5 already had been signed, is that correct? 

6 A Yes he did. As you remember I was the one who 
sent the people to brief Mr. Sporkin following my 
conversation on I guess it was November 2 5th with John 
McMahon to brief Sporkin on the background, whatever 
knowledge we had of this whole Iranian affair to brief 
him to see whether, to get his opinion as to whether or 
not a Finding was necessary for any further CIA support 

13 to this activity. 

1* Q Right. And your recollection was that Mr. 

McMahon told you in early December it had been signed and 
then sometime following that you had this conversation 
with Mr. Sporkin where he added for your information I 
gather that it contained a "no notice" provision in it. 

1^ ^ Exactly. The discussion that I had had at 

20 some point with Mr. McMahon went even further, m other 

21 words, he had been given assurances by the NSC that the 

22 Finding had been signed in December sometime. 

^^ ^ °i<^ he tell you where he got those assurance 

24 from? 

^^ ^ Yeah. He said at a meeting that he had down 



umrano 



660 



1 at the NSC. 

2 Q He didn't identify who it was who provided the 

3 assurances, is that correct? 

4 A No, he did not. 

5 Q Turn back to your discussion here with Clair 

6 George and Charlie Allen. Were you present at that? 

7 A No, I was not. 

8 Q How did you happen to learn of it? 

9 A Mr. George told me. 

10 Q And to your best recollection that 

11 conversation would have occured sometime January to March 

12 of '86. Is that correct? 

13 A Yes. And it was at a point as I said before 

14 where there were becoming a bit dissolutioned with 

15 Ghorbanifar for some reason. He had either (a) dropped 

16 out of contact for a given period of time or he had 

17 failed to deliver on some of his promises. And the sense 

18 I had at that time was that people were beginning to back 

19 away from Ghorbanifar to a certain extent. 

20 Q And what purpose was to be served by allowing 

21 Mr. Ghorbanifar to talk to foreign agency contacts? 

22 A Just simply that, to give him a channel to 

23 continue his contact with the U.S. government. 

24 Q Other than his current channel? 

25 A Other than his current channel. 



OmSStFIED 



661 



UNEl^M 



53 



1 Q Did you have any understanding as to what his 

2 current channel was at that point with the U.S. 

3 government? 

4 A My understanding is his existing channel up to 

5 that point had been Colonel North and Charlie Allen. 

6 Q Now with respect to — let me focus first on 

7 Charlie Allen. What did you understand was the character 

8 of Ghorbanifar 's channel, if you will, with Charlie 

9 Allen? 

10 A I don't know whether he had direct access or 

11 direct contact with Charlie Allen. The impression that I 

12 had, and this is only an impression, I don't know for a 

13 fact, the impression was that through his, whatever kind 

14 of accommodations he had, he would contact Colonel North 

15 or his intermediary and Colonel North would then contact 

16 Charlie and try to arrange for either Charlie or someone 

17 else to meet with Ghorbanifar. 

18 Q Did you have an understanding as to whether 

19 Charlie Allen was part of the operation at this point, 

20 part of the Ghorbanifar initiative? 

21 A My understanding was that he certainly had 

22 first-hand dealing with Ghorbanifar and obviously must 

23 have known something. 

24 Q Did you have any understanding as to how it 

25 was that he became the one that was dealing with 



662 



UNMSIHED 



54 



1 Ghorbanifar? 

2 A No, I did not. I don't know how that all 

3 happened, but my sense was that Colonel North was very 

4 comfortable with Mr. Allen and they had a very good 

5 working relationship. And Charlie, of course, dealt with 

6 the whole issue of counterterrorism for the agency and 

7 therefore should have been very instrumental in any of 

8 these activities having to do with counterterrorism, 

9 hostages, and so forth. 

10 Q You would believe that would cover not just 

11 intelligence but also active participation in the hostage 

12 release plan? 

13 A Well active participation to the extent that 

14 he offered his expert advice. 

15 Q How about acting as an intermediary between 

16 North and Ghorbanifar? Would that still be in keeping 

17 with his role? 

18 A Well, I think that perhaps Colonel North saw 

19 that as an opportunity to use someone who was, after all, 

20 somewhat of a professional and someone who would be aware 

21 of whatever information that was flowing into the agency 

22 on the whole Iranian question, on Iran generally. 

23 Q Did you ever discuss this initiative with 

24 Charlie Allen? 

25 A No, I never did discuss it with Charlie Allen. 



libttSSfflED 



663 



« 





1 

2 

3 
4 

5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 
25 



55 

TO be perfectly honest, we were trying to distance 
ourselves from Mr. Ghorbanifar and anyone that had 
anything to do with Mr,. Ghorabanifar . 

Q You are talking about the Director of 
Operations? Is that right? 

A Yes. 

■SOAJ 

Q And when you^e that would include Clair 
George? 

A That would include Clair George. That was 
Clair's policy. 

Q So Clair George's policy was to limit contact 
with Ghorbanifar or not have any at all? 

A Not have any at all. But between any 
Directorate of Operations people and Ghorbanifar. 

Q Now was that a policy that was expressed 
Directorate-wide? 

A Well, it was certainly expressed to anyone who 
might have had occasion to deal with Mr. Ghorbanifar. 
Q Would it apply tc 
Yes it would, 
And also to| 
Yes. 

Did YOU ever come across, either through Mr. 
George or Charles Allen, or otherwise, the information 
that Charles Allen met with Ghorbanifar in late January? 




ONtsssffe 



664 




1 A Yes. I don't recall exactly how but, yes, I 

2 remember someone telling me that Charles Allen had met, 

3 not only in January but on other occasions with Mr. 

4 Ghorbanifar. But I don't know the substance of or the 

5 location of the meetings, the substance of conversations 

6 they had, or anything. 

7 Q Were you aware that in February of 1986 the 

8 United States began the process of selling arms directly 

9 to Iran? 

10 A I wasn't aware at the time, no. 

11 Q When did you become aware of that? 

12 A Well I'm not sure. Really and honestly I am 

13 not sure. 

14 Q Do you recall whether when you learned it it 

15 had already occurred? 

16 A Yes. It was, I had of course read a lot in 

17 the press after my retirement but my recollection was 

18 that it was confirmed to me when we had a meeting at the 

19 agency when I went back into the agency to review certain 

20 files before I gave testimony to the SSCI. And I 

21 remember on that occasion having been told point blank 

agency was advised^^^^^^^^^^^^^^HH^BHof 

23 the actual content of that November 25th flight. Now I 

24 realize I'm confusing that a little bit with what you've 
25 



asked. 



UNCMflED 



665 



UNtUSSIElED 



1 But I did not know at the time when I was at 

2 the agency that we actually got into the exchange and 

3 sale of arms. 

4 Q That was not till after you left the agency? 

5 A I believe so. 

6 Q Let me ask you a different question. When you 

7 were still — 

8 A Although I notice from that memo that that was 

9 — ^^^Hseems to think that that was a subject of some 

10 discussion at that December meeting, so that would take 

11 it back to December 5th whenH^^^Hwas talking about 5 

12 plane loads. 

13 Q I think the memorandum and I think for the 

14 record the witness is referring again to what has been 

15 previously identified as CIIN 11 also bearing Senate 

16 Identifier of I 0395 through I 0398. In that memorandum 

17 there is a reference to PJ^RMJife^i^'-'-^hts of up to 5 

18 plane loads. 

19 A Yes. I can't remember exactly when I learned 

20 that there would be a sale of weapons, although I do 

21 recall knowing that on the flight that McFarlane' was to 
2 2 take to Iran there would be some military equipment on 
2 3 that flight. Now I don't know how I know that but 

24 obviously someone told me. 

25 Q Let me back up a little bit and try and divide 



wmmiw 



666 



UNCU 




53 



iuy3i ILL 

1 these into some segments. Let me try and place you back 

2 in time to February of 1986. Were you aware and let me 

3 speak of contemporaneous knowledge, were you 

4 contemporaneously aware that in that ^nonth^HHJ^^ER 
5: traveled to meet with Ghorbanifar. 

6 A Yes. 

7 Q And did you have an understanding as to how it 

8 was he was tasked at that mission? 

9 A Yes. But I don't know how accurate my 

10 understanding is. I think he was tapped because he 

11 happened to be the deputy division chief of the NE 

12 division at the time. 

13 Q ■ And when he returned to that meeting, did he 

14 report to you at all? 

15 A No. He did not. He reported to the Deputy 

16 Director for Operations. 

17 Q Now. 

18 A I was never regularly briefed on anything of 

19 these things because I was not part of the compartment. 

20 Q I would include that this would be ad hoc as 

21 well, as well as regularly scheduled briefings. Were you 

22 aware and again I am speaking of contemporaneous 

23 knowledge of George Cave becoming involved in this 

24 matter? 

25 A Yes. 



lift* 




EttRl 



667 



mmm 



59 

1 Q And did you have an understanding as to why it 

2 was the agency brought George Cave in? 

3 A Yes. My understanding was that George Cave 

4 was brought in because he spoke a dialect spoken by the 

5 Mullahs. And so the implication was that the contact at 

6 some particular point that the alleged moderates in Iran 

7 were Mullahs. 

8 Q Did you know when George Cave had been brought 

9 in that Albert Hakim had acted as an interpreter at one 

10 of these meetings? 

11 'AX did not know about Mr. Hakim until well 

12 after my retirement. 

13 Q So that at least to your understanding the 

14 involvement of George Cave in early March was unrelated 

15 to Hakim acting as an interpreter? 

16 A I don't follow that. 

17 Q Let me ask the question differently. You've 

18 testifed that you did not know at the time but it has 

19 later proven to be the case that at at least one meeting 

20 Albert Hakim acted as an interpreter for the United 

21 States side. You were not aware of that at the time? 

22 AX was not. 

23 Q When George Cave was brought on in early March 

24 you were not made aware of any, or that his coming on 

25 board was related to moving Albert Hakim out as an 

iSJ 




668 



1BI»IE^ 



60 



1 interpreter? 

2 A Ko I was not. 

3 Q I am going to show you three documents that 

4 bear the following identifier numbers — CIIN 1025, CIIN 

5 1026, CIIN 1027. The companion Senate identifiers 

6 following in the same sequence, C 1466 for the first 

7 document mentioned, C 1467 for the second document 

8 mentioned for the last document mentioned Senate 

9 identifier C 1468. 

10 And let me ask for the record, Mr. 

11 Juchniewicz, you have had an opportunity now, I gather, 

12 to examine these three documents, is that correct? 

13 A Yes, I have. 

14 Q Now, did any or all of those documents appear 

15 familar to you. 

16 A Yes. The one identified CIIN 1025 is a spot 

17 report which I believe I had read. 

13 Q And that report originates from^^^^^^^H is 

19 that correct? 

20 A Yes it does. 

21 Q Now the subject of that report and the 

22 reported is dated February 10, 1986, is that^^^^^^^H 

23 |^^H^^^^|^^^|on February 4, 1986 is advising that he 

24 has been, he has himself been advised that Adnan 

25 Khashoggi is brokering j 




669 






Mum^B 



61 



I^^^^HH^I^mi^^^Pand that Khashoqgl's aaln Iranian 

2 contact in this nattar is Manuchar Ghorbanlfar. How, 

3 whan that information cam* in and you read th« spot 

4 report did you do anything with th« information? 

5 A No, I did not. But as a rule lat m« tall you 

6 that the spot reports normally went to the Deputy 

7 Director's office and the Director's office. The purpose 

8 of spot reports was to bring to the attention of the 

9 Directorate of operations management and others, the 

10 Deputy Director and the Director, bring them up to speed 

11 on certain events that were transpiring that w* thought 

12 were of particular note. 

13 Q Let m* make sure that these terms are clear 

14 for the record. When you say the Director, you mean the 

15 Director of Central Intelligence. 

16 A I mean the Director of Central Intelligence. 

17 It would go, the reports would normally go to his special 

18 assistant. And then it was up to the special asslsant to 

19 brief the Director or put it in his reading material, if 

20 he thought it was worth flagging for the Director. 

21 Q Now, this is originating from the Near East 

22 division. Do you recall any action being taken on this 

23 to dlssmeninate it to people who might be Involved in the 

24 Iranian Initiative other than normal routing? 

25 A No, I do not. But bear in mind, that the 



If 



670 



62 

1 people Involved at that particular point were in the NE 

2 division, in other wbrd^^^^^^^^^^l was the deputy 

3 chief, I think, of NE division and George Cave was 

4 working under contract for NE division, but they were the 

5 people involved. 

6 Q You would assume by looking at the origin of 

7 this that they would already be aware of this? 

8 A Definitely. 

9 Q Now as to these other documents, CIIN 1026 and 

10 CIIN 1027, are these documents that you had seen before? 

11 A I don't recall. 

12 Q You don't recall seeing them before? 

13 A I don't recall having seen them before. But 

14 obviously they do relate to that spot report and were the 

15 gen/sis for that spot report. 

16 Q Do you recall having any discussions with 

17 anybody about this^HH|^HH^Bdeal and whether it 

18 bore any relationship or pertinence to the Iranian 

19 initiatives and our contacts with Manucher Ghorbanifar? 

20 A No, I do not. 

21 Q In your view, I'm just asking for your opinion 

22 at this point having viewed this document, would this 

23 have been a further cause of concern on your part for 

24 dealing with Manucher Ghorbanifar? 

25 A It would be just a further reflection of the 

ici 



671 



mmwB 



63 



1 kind of individual Ghorbanifar is. Namely a broker who 

2 would sell anything to anybody. 

3 Q Now I gather that you became aware at some 

4 point that^^^^^^^^^Hhad become more actively involved 

5 ; in this Iranian initiative. Is that right? 

6 A I became aware that^^^^^^^^^had been 

7 designated as Directorate of Operations person to, I 

8 don't how to properly put this, to be in touch with 

9 Colonel North. 

10 Q Was that done through Clair George? 

11 A Yes, it was done through Clair George. 

12 Q So this was an exception to his rule that the 

13 Directorate of Operations would not have anything to do 

14 with Ghorbanifar? 

15 A Right. I should have made clear when I 

16 mentioned that other thing to you was that obviously that 

17 pertained, the kind of injunction against having any 
13 Directorate of Operations people involved with 

19 Ghorbanifar pertained only up to the point when we were 

20 asked the Directorate of Operations was obviously asked 

21 to take a more active role in this entire thing? At 

22 which point I would suspect that Clair had to modify his 
2 3 order. 

24 Q Do you know where that request came from? 

25 A I do not. 



-« •- ■ ": fj 



TOP. SE 



UtiUL 




672 




1 Q You don't know whether it came from the 

2 Director or from NSC? 

3 A No. But I mean if I were to speculate it came 

4 from the NSC to the Director on down to Clair. 

5 Q So that I gather to the extent that^^^H 

6 ^^^^^^^Hand subseguently^^^^^B^^^Bbecame involved in 

7 this matter, it was presumably an exception to Mr. 

8 George's prohibition and based on some request either 

9 from the Director or from NSC, would that be right? 
10 A Yes. I didn't even know, by the way, that 

^^^^^^^^^|wa s 

12 Q That's the first you heard of that? 

13 A Yes. You're the bearer of that news. 

14 Q Okay. Let me then proceed to the period of 

15 early March 1986. We know now, so I can put this into 

16 the time frame for you, that approximately March 5th 

17 George Cave was offically on board as a CIA 

18 representative in the Iran initiative. When he came on 
board he was briefed by^^^^^^^^^Has to what^^^H 

20 ^^^^^^Hknew up to that point. Were you aware of those 

21 goings on? 

22 A I was not. As a matter of \ct I was not aware 

r 

23 of precisely what Mr. Cave's job or responsibility was 

24 going to be other than to act an an interpreter. 

25 Q You had foreknowledge of his coming on? 



,d foreknowledge of his c 



673 



fflte?!^ 



DEWORD 



1 A I did not. 

2 Q You did not? 

3 A I have not, I did not meet Mr. Cave nor have I 

4 had any conversations with Mr. Cave exicept the both of us 

5 attended a meeting shortly before I came down to testify 

6 to the SSCI. That was my first contact with Mr. Cave. 

7 Q Now, did you learn, I gather then, after the 

8 fact but while you were still with CIA that he had been 

9 brought on board? 

10 A Yes. 

11 Q Were you aware that shortly after he came on 

12 board that he travelled along with Lieutenant Colonel 

13 North to Paris to meet with Ghorbanifar? 

14 A I knew that that was the plan. Actually I 

15 knew in advance that Mr. Cave was brought on board 

16 specifically to accompany Colonel North and others, I 

17 guess to develop some sort of an independent assessment 

18 or feel of Mr. Ghorbanifar or to act as an interpreter if 

19 the occasion arose. 

2 Q And did you know that that comprised an 

21 impending trip to Paris in particular? 

22 A I did not know that in particular, but I knew 
2 3 that it did involve travel abroad. 

2 4 Q Now when Mr. Cave returned from that trip were 

25 you made privy to any of the information that he 



UNCDSSHID 



674 



isHmmi 



RD 66 



1 gathered? 

2 A I was not. 

3 Q Did you become aware while you were still with 

4 the Agency that a plan had been developed to transfer 

5 spare HAWK parts to Iran? 

6 A Not specifically spare HAWK parts. I mean, I 

7 knew generally that they were planning to sell TOW 

8 missiles but I did not know anything beyond that. 

9 Q Let me kind of take two steps back here. When 

10 you say that you were aware that they were planning to 

11 sell TOW missiles, do you include in that a knowledge 

12 that TOW missiles already had been sold in February of 

13 '86? 

14 A I believe so. 

15 Q So that when you say, when you refer to TOW 

16 missiles you are separating that from the February TOW 

17 missile sales? 

18 A No, I'm not separating it. I just knew 

19 generally that the plan was to sell TOW missiles. 

20 Now, I don't. now in what kind of increments, 

A 

21 how many, when. I just knew that one of the items was 

22 TOW missiles. 

23 Q What I'm trying to do is separate what you 

24 perceive to be a prospective shipment from what was a 

25 post facto shipment when you made your statement earlier, 

Is I 

\ 




675 




67 

1 coupling this in the context of the HAWK spares to your 

2 understanding that TOW missiles were to be sold. Was 

3 that, had the February TOWs already been sold and you 

4 understood some other TOW Deal was in the offing? 

5 A No. I understand what you are saying. That 

6 was not the case. My understanding only at some point 

7 was that TOW missiles were being considered as one of the 

8 items to be sold to the Iranians. 

9 Q I'm going to make an effort to try to fix this 

10 in time. Did your understanding with respect to TOW 

11 missiles being a possible item for sale arise in the same 

12 time frame of your understanding that intelligence was 

13 going to be shared with the Iranians? 

14 A Yes. Possibly January-February time frame. 

15 Q Now let me concentrate again on the HAWK 

16 spares. You testified earlier that before you left you 

17 were aware that there was a trip planned to Tehran. Were 

18 you aware that Robert McFarlane was going to be the U.S. 

19 representative? 

20 A Yes, I was. 

21 Q Now you also, I gather, had an understanding 

22 that that trip would entail the delivery of at least some 

23 military hardware. 

24 A Yes. 

25 Q Did you have any understanding as to what the 



«ms«fl 



676 



i^iiBCHHtMiattM 




1 nature of that hardware would be? 

2 A No. I had absolutely no idea. 

3 Q And I gather that — did you have any 

4 understanding that from at least the end of February-on 

5 ; that^^^^^^^^HHhad an ongoing responsibility with 

6 respect to participating in the Iran initiative? 

7 A Yes, that was my understanding. 

8 Q Did you have any understanding as to whether 

9 he had any role in the acquisition or facilitating the 

10 acquisition of armaments from the Department of Defense? 

11 A That I did not know. 

12 Q Did you have any understanding as to what, if 

13 any, role the CIA was playing in facilitating the 

14 transfer of arms to Iran? 

15 A I had no idea. 

16 Q Did any information during this period of time 

17 come to your attention with respect to what kind of 

18 purchase price was being asked? 

19 A No. I had absolutely no idea about price. As 

20 a matter of fact, I had no idea that money was even going 

21 to be an issue. In other words, I somehow came to the 

22 conclusion it was the equipment for the hostage, with no 

23 money involved. 

24 Q l-fhat I'm trying to get at is that — let me 

25 back up. If I'm summarizing your understanding 

E 



irt>^*IC|^n 



677 



lgtftS«B 



69 



1 correctly, you were operating under the assumption that 

2 it was a straight swap of arms for hostages and that Iran 

3 was not paying for the armaments on the side; is that 

4 correct? 

5 A That's right. And in none of the discussions 

6 that I participated in was money ever discussed or the 

7 fact that there would be a price tag on the weapons. 

8 Q And now let me try and parse out some of these 

9 discussions that you had. I gather these are occurring 

10 on kind of an ad hoc, sporadic basis from January to the 

11 time you stepped down; is that correct? 

12 A Yes, exactly. 

13 Q Any idea how many meetings you might have had 

14 on this subject? 

15 A They weren't meetings. I mean, what I am 

16 recounting is conversations that could have taken place 

17 in the corridor or in the men's room, for example. These 

18 were not necessarily formal briefings or meetings in 

19 which I received this information. As I mentioned 

20 before, not being part of the group of those fully 

21 briefed on what was happening, I got my information in 

22 bits and pieces from people who were just sharing 
2 3 whatever they had with me on occasion. 

24 Q And this, I gather, would have been based on 

2 5 your initial understanding that an initiative was afoot? 



umssffl 



678 



ymsHH 



1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



A Exactly. 

Q So that people felt that they could talk to 

you because though not actively involved you had some 
knowledge of the coir.partT.ented activity? 

A Right. 

Q Let me address these things to you. First, 
le.t rae ask you about your understanding of the state of 
the Agency's intelligence on the fate of Bill Buckley. 
Do you know when it was that the Agency understood Bill 
Buckley had in fac t died" 

A 




I was 

convinced that that photograph that subsequently appeared 
in the press of the person, the corpse wrapped in a 
blanket, like I don't know who released the photograph, 
but I was convinced that photograph was Buckley. 

Q And was that released in connection with the 
threatened execution of Buckley following t.he Israeli air 
strike on Tripoli? 

A No, I don't know exactly, but it seemed to me 
that the captors released several photographs, and in the 
process had this figure wrapped in a blanket or a straw 
mat. I can't recall exactly why they released it, but it 




679 



u 



hWk SBcHlyidDftlold 71 



1 was obviously released by the captors and appeared in a 

2 Beirut newspaper. 

3 Q Were you aware that in the early stages of the 

4 Iran initiative that there were efforts afoot to bring 

5 Bill Buckley back, it was hoped, still alive? 

6 A I mean, I know — I'm aware of the fact that 

7 there were initiatives to try to gain the release of all 

8 the hostages, but I'm not aware of anything specifically 
addressing Bill Buckley and getting Bill Buckley back 



9 
10 alone 



11 Q And that would apply to your understanding of 

12 the early stages of the Ghorbanifar initiative that, at 

13 least, from the point where you became aware of it. Bill 

14 Buckley was not — bringing him alone alive back to the 

15 United states was not a part of it? 

1^ A It was not. As a matter of fact, my early 

17 understanding of Ghorbanifar was not necessarily that he 

18 would be instrvimental personally in any way in gaining 

19 the release of the hostages. 

20 Q What was your understanding of Ghorbanifar 's 

21 possibly intermediary role? 

22 A Well, Ghorbanifar allegedly was connected to 

23 the certain elements in Iran and it was not even clear 

24 from these alleged collections of his that these people 

25 were in any position whatsoever to exert any influence on 

D 



680 



UHCkteHfl 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



the hostageholders in Lebanon. And I don't even know 
whether that was one of the stated, early stated 
objectives of Ghorbanifar to try to gain the release. 

Obviously this was a very natural thing for 
him to do, to try to sell the notion that he could get 
the release of the hostages, but quite honestly I never 
believed that. 

Q In your tenure with the Agency did you ever 
come across any information thati 




•A No. This is the first I've heard of that. 

Q In the Tower Report the Director of Central 
Intelligence is quoted at one point as saying that in the 
course of a meeting with the President and other CAbinet 
officers that "I did state that there was historical 
precedent for this and that it was always the rationale 
the Israelis had given us for arms to Iran." 

^o you have any idea as to what he was talking 
about, about a historical precedent for Israel providing 
arms to Iran? 

A No, I do not. 

Q In your encounters with other Agency people at 
briefings, formal and informal, on the Iran initiative 
did you receive any understanding as to whether Israel 
was playing a role in this and what that role might be? 




681 



10 



1 A YOU know, I can't be certain. I know I have 

2 read an awful lot after the fact, after my retirement, 

3 which clearly indicates the extent of the Israeli 

4 involvement. 

5 Q I gather you can't separate what you knew 

6 after the fact or after your separation from the AGency 

7 from what you might have known while you were with the 

8 Agency? Is that correct? 

9 A Yes. I believe I do have a recollection 
somehow that Mr. Kimche was involved or had been involved 

11 during my service, but again I don't know the context or 

12 anything, 

^^ Q Do you recall while you were with the Agency 

14 having any understanding as to whether Ghorbanifar had a 

15 relationship with Israeli intelligence? 

16 AX did not, no. 

^"^ Q Again, during your tenure with the Agency were 

18 you privy to any information of an initiative involving 

19 the Drug Enforcement Administration to pay ransom to 

20 receive or to release any hostages from Lebanon? 

21 A No, not the Drug Enforcement Administration. 

22 But I was aware of an effort on the part of the NSC to 

23 use a Drug Enforcement Agency informant as a go-between 

24 Q Do you recall when it was that you would have 

25 known that? 



wimmw 



682 




1 A Oh,^3dd', no, I don't 

2 Q How did that information come to you? 

3 A The information came to us because I believe 

4 we were asked to trace the informant and in the process 

5 of providing — and I"m not even sure that we have any 

6 information in our files — but in the process we did 

7 learn that the individual was being considered because he 

8 also alleged to have some connection with Lebanon, with 

9 people that might possibly have been involved with the 

10 abduction of the Americans. 

11 'Q Were you yourself involved in that at all? 

12 A I was not. 

13 Q You simply received information on it 

14 periodically? 

15 A Yes. 

16 Q Now, while you were with the Agency did you 

17 become aware of the involvement or any role whatsoever in 

18 this Iran initiative of Roy Furmark? 

19 A No . 

20 Q Did you know who he was? 

21 A I did not know who he was. 

22 Q So that name didn't come to you till after you 

23 left the Agency; is that correct? 

24 A Yes. 

25 Q How about John Shaheen? Had you heard that 



683 



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2 
3 
4 

5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



name while you were with the Agency? 

A I did hear John Shaheen and I heard it within 
the context of shaheen being an acquaintance of Director 
Casey. 

Q Did you ever come across information while you 
were in the Agency that connected John Shaheen to Cyrus 
Hashemi? 

Ves, I believe I did. 

Do you recall how that came to your attention? 

No, I don't. I do not. 

Do you recall what the information might have 
been? 



A No, I don't know what the context is. 

MR. WOODCOCK: Let's go off the record. 

(A discussion was held off the record.) 

BY MR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

Q I am showing Mr. Juchniewicz once again 

document number CIIN 1033, Senate identifier C-1476. 

First let me ask you for the record if you recall ever 

having seen that document before. 

A No, I don't recall having seen this document 
before. 

Q That document begins with a salutation to an 
individual by the name of Arnie. Do you have any idea 
who that might have been? 




684 




ODEWORD 76 



1 A No, I do not. The only Arnie I know is Arnie 

2 Donoghue over at State, who — is that Arnie Donoghue? 

3 He is an officer at State and I think he has been 

4 appointed Ambassador to Pakistan, if I'm not mistaken. 

5 Q This — 

6 A Oh, that's ARnie Raful. I'm sorry. No, I 

7 don't know who that Arnie could refer to. 

8 Q This document refers to the — starts out with 

9 a reference to an update on Hashemi escapade dated July 

10 11, 1985. Do you have any idea as to what the Hashemi 

11 escapade might have been? 

12 A No, I do not. 

13 Q Let me turn to an entirely different subject. 

14 This is the matter of Central America. I have here a 

15 document that bears the number, identifier number CIIN 

16 778. It has a Senate identifier C-0S94. Let me show 

17 that to you and ask you to take a moment to read that, if 

18 you would. 

19 (Pause.) 

20 Mr. Juchniewicz, have you had an opportunity 

21 to review this document? 

22 A Yes, I have. 

23 Q That document was generated in 1984 and it 

24 refers to, among other things, a suggestion that while a 

25 Congressional delegation is visiting, I believe it is, 

X 



685 



UKSkMRi 



77 



1 ^^^^^^^B that certain planes be kept flying aloft until 

2 perhaps the delegation disappears. Do you recall that 

3 cable coining through your office at all? 

4 A No, I do not recall this cable, but I think I 

5 do recall the incident -- not the incident but the 

6 situation. The situation has to do with, I believe, an 

7 attempt by a Congressional committee to investigate the 

8 use of funds for modifications done! 

9 I^^^^HP I remember being at a hearing when this entire 

10 issue was raised. 

11 In other words, what apparently had been done 

12 there was a drainage problen^^m^^^^^^^^H and some 

13 construction had taken place to rectify the problem 

14 because there was a certain amount of erosion 

15 ^^^^^Band there was an attempt made to determine whether 

16 or not this was in violation of any of the injunctions 

17 placed on the Agency for expenditure of funds, and I 

18 think it was subsequently determined that it was not. 

19 And I believe there were members of the CODEL 

20 going down who were not privy to the Central American 

21 program and 1 believe that was behind the effort* to not 

22 show any sort of an Agency presence 

23 while this particular delegation was there. 

24 Q What was the risk posed by making them 

25 knowledgeable of that? 




686 




1 A Oh, I don't know exactly, but I would suspect 

2 making them knowledgeable of certain aspects of the 

3 Central American program which were briefed to the 

4 appropriate members of the oversight committee but not to 

5 others, and our contention has always been it's up to the 

6 oversight committees to brief other Members of Congress. 

7 Q Do you have any idea what the reference to 

8 important drops scheduled for Friday means? 

9 A No, I don't recall offhand. 

10 Q Do you think you might have known at one time? 

11 A I would suspect, to be perfectly serious. 

12 Q Mr. Juchniewicz, we have received in our 

13 materials a PROF message referring to -- and this was 

14 received from the Agency -- referring to lethal drops 
scheduled^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H in August Do you 

16 have any knowledge of that? 

17 A I may have at the time, but I certainly can't 
13 recall it now. 

19 Q What was your understanding at the time as to 

20 whether the Agency could have participated in such an 

21 endeavor? 

22 A My understanding is that the Agency could not. 

23 Q Let me show you a series of cables and what 

24 I'd like you to give attention to is to whether these 

25 were cables that you might have seeru^r might have been 




687 




79 

1 brought to the Directorate of Operation's attention in 

2 the course of the November 1985 flight, which we now all 

3 know contained HAWK missiles. 

4 The first cable that I'm going to show you is 

5 dated November 22, 1985. It bears an identifier at the 

6 top of 86-4068F. It also has on the right-hand margin 

7 the Senate identifier of 1-0299. Let me just show you 

8 that and see if that is a cable that would have come to 

9 your office of the Directorate's office. 

10 A I do recall having been either advised or 

11 actually having seen that particular cable. 

12 Q Now again let me go through the same exercise 

13 . — 

14 A And Copp was subsequently identified to me as 

15 being the alias used by General Secord. 

16 Q Did you come by that information 

17 contemporaneously with the ongoing operation, or after 

18 the fact? 

19 A After the fact. 

20 Q Let me have you do the same thing with this 

21 cable, which bears the Senate identifier 1-0300. It is 

22 again November 22, 1985, and it has an identifier on top 

23 which is 86-4068F. 

24 MS. MC NEIL: Can we ask again just for a 
25 



688 



muggHH 



s 



^ 5-- 5 ^ 



30 

1 referenced, when we obtained these documents? 

2 BY ^tR. WOODCOCK: (Resuming) 

3 Q These are obtained from the Select Committee 

4 on Intelligence. I believe that these documents were 

5 brought to the Select Committee on Intelligence by Duane 

6 Clarridge when he appeared before the Committee and 

7 testified in 1986. Do you recall having seen that 

8 document? 

9 A I do not recall having seen that document, but 

10 I do recall having been told something about that 

11 episode. 

12 Q ■ Question, if I may. Do you recall information 

13 coming in by way of cable that describe the difficulties, 

14 precisely what the difficulties were that were being 

13 encountered ^^^^^^^I^Hto get clearance for this flight? 
16 A The difficulties, as I recall, was the 

approval^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H for the 

18 landing or refueling or overflight. 

19 Q Now, did you come by that information through 

20 this cable traffic? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q While you were at the Agency on November 22 

23 and November 23 is it fair to say that to the extent you 

24 were physically present at the Agency you were seeing 

25 cab] 



)le traffic as it came io? jss^ a»*"a8*ft 



689 



1 

2 
3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



wt^y&si 



ai 



A Certain cable traffic that was pulled for us 
by our staff aides. 

Q And then you did see cable traffic relating to 
this particular effort to gain landing rights for the -- 

A I do recall having seen some of the cable 
trafficg^^^^^^Hat that ti:ne. 

Q Now, do you recall seeing any cable traffic 
coming inP 

A I do not. 

Q As a matter of record, a cable was cratec 

Iwhich among other things referred to a 
conversation between the pilot of the aircraft and 

wherein the pilot speculated 
that he was carrying military hardware. I gather you did 
not have contemporaneous knowledge of that. 

A Did not, no. But I heard about that 
afterwards. 

Q Did you hear about it shortly afterwards or 
was it a long time? 

A It was a little while afterwards. I don't 
recall exactly how long after. 

Q Let me show you — for the record, this is a 
cable dated November 25, 1985. There is a Senate 
identifier, 11-0436. And let me just ask you to review 
this cable and ask you whether you've ever seen that 



mm^^'i 



690 




82 

1 before. This cable, I gather, is one you have not seen 

2 before. 

3 A I don't recall having seen that cable. 

4 Q And that cable does contain within it the 

5 exchange between^^^^^H^|^^|Hand the pilot where the 

6 pilot speculated he was carrying armaments. Do you 

7 recall that observation at all becoming a subject of 

8 discussion on November 25? 

9 A No, I do not recall it being a subject of 

10 discussion then, but, as I said, it was a subject of 

11 discussion afterwards. But again I can't recall exactly 

12 how long afterward it was a discussion. 

13 Q Let me bring you back to Saturday, which would 

14 have been November 23. You were at the Agency at the 

15 time. Do you recall Charlie Allen also being at the 

16 Agency? 

17 A I have no idea whether he was or was not on 

18 that day. 

19 Q Do you recall Duane Clarridge being at the 

20 Agency on Saturday? 

21 A No, I would have no way of knowing. • In other 

22 words, I was on the seventh floor and pretty much 

23 confined to my office as the only one being there, and 

24 whether or not those people were in or out would be hard 

25 for me to determine. 



umit! 



f^^^O 



691 



« 




1 Q Now let's assume as a hypothetical matter that 

2 Duane Clarridge is in the office working on this very 

3 same matter — that is, facilitating the flight of this 

4 aircraft. Under those circumstances would he have come 

5 to your attention? 

6 A Not necessarily. I mean, he would consult or 

7 call if he felt he had something he wanted to discuss 

8 with us. And if he had nothing which he wished to bring 

9 to our attention he could be in all day Saturday and we 

10 would never know he was there. And likewise, if we had 

11 nothing to talk to him about we would never have occasion 

12 to know whether he was around or not. 

13 Q Some of this cable traffic is coming in on the 

14 23rd and presumably you are seeing some of it as it comes 

15 in; is that correct? 

16 A Seeing that the scanner, our scanner should be 

17 seeing some of it. 

18 Q That's not prompting you, I gather, to go down 

19 and seek him out? 

20 A No, it did not, either because I did not see 

21 it or was briefed on it. 

22 Q Have you ever had a discussion with Charlie 

23 Allen about this particular flight? 

24 A No. The only time I heard anything from 

25 Charlie Allen about this particular flight was shortly 




692 




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2 

3 

4 

5 

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7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



84 



before I came down to give testimony to the SSCI. 

Q Did he tell you at that time that he was in 
headquarters over that Saturday? 

A No, he did not, because it was part of a 
larger meeting and that was^discussed at all. In other 
words, the only thing that was discussed was the fact 
that they had been able to determine exactly — yes, he 
mentioned it — it was only on January 13th, according to 
his recollection that they were able to determine exactly 
what was on that November flight. 

Q Okay. Run that by me again, if you would. 

A During this conversation, during this meeting 
at which both Charlie and I participated I heard Charlie 
mention that it was only January 13th when the Agency had 
gotten the from^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^who 

us precisely what was on that November flight. 

Q Did he tell you that he had strong suspicions 
before that time that it was armaments? 

A I didn't get into that with him because we 
were one of 12 people at this meeting. 

Q One more question before we break up. Did you 
ever come by any information that Richard Secord put 
t oge the r^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^H that be 
hostage rescue attempt? 

A No, never. I wouldn't believe it. 



UNtMflfD 



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5 AQQM? 



85 

1 MR. WOODCOCK: Thank you again, Mr. 

2 Juchniewicz. We appreciate your willingness to come down 

3 here and make time for us. 

4 (Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the taking of the 

5 instant deposition ceased.) 

6 



7 Signature of the witness 

8 Subscribed and sworn to before me this day of 

9 , 1987. 

10 



11 ' Notary Public 

12 My Commission Expires: 



WtMffliD 



694 



695 



UNtttsm 

Stenographic Transcript of 
HEARINGS 
Before the 



i ( W«. i ( I «« < 



6L^ 



HSIS £i2jL_ /87 



UNITED STATES SENATE 



*«»/) 



Washington. D.C. 




bv D. Stake. Natkxul Scciiritv Council 

wyi*.«™.,pwiKi«ia««ini7;-ouncn^2^2j 623-9300 

20 F STREET, N.W. COPY NO, 

WASHINGTON, D. C. 20001 




i£jr_i. 



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(695) 



696 



697 



mmmii 



TESTIMONY OF ROBERT WILLIAM KAGAN 
Tuesday, May 12, 1987 

U.S. Senate, 
Select Committee on Secret Military 
Assistance to Iran and the 
Nicaraguan Opposition 
Washington, D.C 
Deposition of ROBERT WILLIAM KAGAN, a 
witness herein, called for examination by Counsel 
for the Senate and House Committees in the above- 
entitled matter, pursuant to notice, the witness 
being first duly sworn by JANE w. BEACH, a Notary 
Public in and for the District of Columbia, at the 
offices of the Senate Select Committee, 9th Floor, 
Senate Hart Office Building, at 3:05 p.m., Tuesday, 
May 12, 1987, the proceedings being taken down by 
Stenomask by JANE W. BEACH and transcribed under her 
direction. 

(697) 



^*^imm 



698 



SINCttSSIRED 



1 APPEARANCES : 

2 On behalf of the Witness: 

3 WILLIAM H. SCHWEITZER, Esquire 

4 Baker & Hostetler 

5 Suite 1100 

6 1050 Connecticut Avenue, Northwest 

7 Washington, D.C. 20036 

8 (202) 861-1500 

9 On behalf of the Senate Select Committee: 

10 TERRY SMILJANICH, Esquire 

11 Associate Counsel 

12 United States Senate 

13 Select Committee on Secretary Military 

14 Assistance 

15 to Iran and the Nicaraguan Opposition 

16 901 Hart Senate Office Building 

17 Washington, D.C. 20510 

18 (202) 224-9960 

19 On behalf of the House Select Committee 

20 TERRY E. TRAYLOR 

21 House Select Committee 

22 Washington, D.C. 



UNCLASSIFIED 



699 



u 




.Ml'! fl 



1 PROCEEDINGS 

2 Whereupon, 

3 ROBERT WILLIAM KAGAN 

4 was called as a witness by counsel for the Senate 

5 and House Select Conunittees and, having been first 

6 duly sworn by the Notary Public, was examined and 

7 testified as follows: 

8 EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF SENATE COUNSEL 

9 BY MR. SMILJANICH: 

10 Q State your full name for the record, 

11 please. 

12 A Robert William Kagan. 

13 Q Spell the last name, please. 

14 A K-a-g-a-n. 

15 Q And your date of birth, Mr. Kagan. 

16 A 9/26/58. 

17 Q Mr. Kagan, this is a deposition being 

18 taken by the Senate Select Committee and House 

19 Select Committee jointly investigating the Iran 

20 contra matter. I am going to ask you a series of 

21 questions. If there is anything I ask you in which 

22 you do not understand my question, please let me 

23 know and I will be happy to rephrase my question. 

24 First of all, what is your current title 

25 or position? 



PMlUiy D«d»liJJied/ Released on > ^'^" -^ - -J^r^: 



jiNi;y^siFi[o 



under provisions of CO. 12356 
by D. Sliko, Hitioful Security Council 



700 



UNCLIiSSra 



1 A Deputy for Policy and Public Affairs in 

2 the Bureau of Inter American Affairs, the State 

3 Department. 

4 Q Is that basically the same thing as being 

5 called the Director of the Public Diplomacy Section? 

6 A Being coordinator of the Office of Public 

7 Diplomacy is one of my tasks in that position. 

8 Q In that section, then, you are the 

9 highest official in that section? 

10 A The Director of the Office of Public 

11 Diplomacy; that is right. 

12 MR. SCHWEITZER: Mr. Smiljanich, may I 

13 just interrupt? I would like to put something on 

14 the record. That is, that we are appearing here 

15 voluntarily and not pursuant to a subpoena, but at 

16 your request that we voluntarily appear. 

17 MR. SMILJANICH: That is true. 

18 BY MR. SMILJANICH: (Resuming) 

19 Q You are a political appointee at the 

20 Department of State? Is that correct? 

21 A That's right. 

22 Q Would you give me a quick summary of your 

23 educational background and work experience prior to 

24 entering government sef'rvice? 

25 A I graduated from Yale University in 1980. 



UNtt^SiriEO 



701 



iJi^Cb^SSIFlEC 



1 I worked for a year at a magazine in New York called 

2 The Public Interest. 

3 I spent two years at Harvard's Kennedy 

4 School of Government. I worked for less than a year 

5 for Congressman Jack Kemp. Then I worked briefly at 

6 the U.S. Inforroation Agency before coming to the 

7 State Department where I was the Chief Speechwriter 

8 for Secretary of State George Shultz from about June 

9 of 1984 through November of 1985. 

10 Then I became Special Assistant to the 

11 Assistant Secretary of State for Interamerican 

12 Affairs, and in April of 1986 I became Deputy for 

13 Policy and Public Affairs. 

14 Q What is your degree in? 

15 A It is in international affairs. 

16 Q And when you became Special Assistant at 

17 the Bureau of Interamerican Affairs, who was the 

18 Assistant Secretary of State at the Bureau? 

19 A Elliott Abrams. 

20 Q And in April of 1986 then you came to 

21 your current position? 

22 A That's right. 

2 3 Q What were your duties as Special 

24 Assistant to Secretary Abrams? 

2 5 A They varied. It was pretty much whatever 



UNCtKSSIFIEG 



702 



\mmm 



1 Mr. Abrams wanted me to do, mostly focusing on 

2 issues pertaining to Central America, writing 

3 letters for him, occasionally drafting speeches, but 

4 a variety of things. 

5 Q What is the function of the Public 

6 Diplomacy Section that you are currently coordinator 

7 in? 

8 A The Office of Public Diplomacy is 

9 designed to produce information pertaining to issues 

10 in Central America and U.S. policy in Central 

11 America and to attempt to explain that to publics in 

12 the United States, Latin America, Europe. 

13 Q Who was your predecessor in that 

14 position? 

15 A Otto Reich. 

16 Q He is currently ambassador to Venezuela, 

17 I believe? 

18 A That's right. 

19 Q And the Office of Public Diplomacy was 

20 originally not in, or within the Bureau of 

21 Interamerican Affairs. Is that correct? 

22 A That's right. 

23 Q It was under the Secretariat? 

24 A That's right. 

25 Q When did it switch over to the Bureau of 



iiNEasxm 



703 



UNKSIFIEB 



1 Interamerican Affairs? 

2 A My belief is that it was simultaneous to 

3 my taking over that job. 

4 Q When you took over that position, the 

5 office — and I an going to refer to it as LPD; those 

6 are the initials that are used within the State 

7 Department. Is that correct? 

8 A That's right. 

9 Q LPD at that time had a contract with an 

10 organization called IBC. Is that correct? 

11 A That's right. 

12 Q And that contract was in existence at the 

13 time you became coordinator and deputy? 

14 A Well, the contract had been drawn up and 

15 negotiated, but pending its security clearance it 

16 had not been executed. 

17 Q Okay. I realize that the contract is a 

18 contract, and one can look at it and see exactly 

19 what it says, but would you just give me, if you 

20 would, just a general summary of what you understood 

21 the contract to be about? 

22 A The contract was basically to assist the 

23 office in doing what the office does, and primarily 

24 under my watch that entailed helping to distribute 

25 the publications that my office produces. 



ONCblSSfFIED 



704 



\iHsmm 



1 Q Who were the principals of IBC that you 

2 dealt with? 

3 A Richard Miller and Frank Gomez. 

4 Q What was the term of their contract, do 

5 you recall, when you inherited it? 

6 A It was the fiscal year 1986 ending, 

7 September 1986. 

8 Q Did the contract expire in September of 

9 1986? 

10 A Yes, it did. 

11 Q It wasrv't renewed? 

12 A No. 

13 Q As Special Assistant to Assistant 

14 Secretary Abrams, did you on occasion attend 

15 meetings of the Restricted Interagency Group for 

16 Latin America? 

17 A Yes, I did. 

18 Q That is commonly referred to as the 

19 "RIG", all capital letters, R-I-G. Approximately 

20 how many of the RIG meetings would you attend? 

21 Could you give me a percentage? 

22 A I would say 80 to 90 percent. 

23 Q And this is froa the time period of 

24 November of 1985 to April of 1986? 

25 A That 



mSIFIED 



705 



UNCimiFIED 



1 Q By the way, in your current position did 

2 you still attend meetings of the RIG? 

3 A Yes. 

4 Q With the same frequency, or less? 

5 A Generally the same frequency? 

6 Q Has that continued through today? 

7 A Well, there is now another group called 

8 the IG/N, which is the special Interagency Group on 

9 Nicaragua. 

10 Q Is that "IG/N"? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q Okay. The RIG was for Latin American, 

13 but quite often dealt with Central America. Is that 

14 correct? 

15 A That's correct. 

16 Q Would it be fair to say that in fact most 

17 of the RIG meetings did concern themselves with 

18 matters in Central America? 

19 A I would say more than 50, 60 percent. 

20 Q When Central America was the topic of the 

21 RIG, first of all, who chaired the RIG? 

22 A Mr. Abrams. 

23 Q And when Central America was the topic of 

24 the RIG, who were the usual attendees? 

25 A Repsa^ntatives from the National 



jK^eytatives from the Nai 



706 



UNCMflEB 



1 Security Council, usually Raymond Burghardt, and 

2 Colonel North, and/or Colonel North. From the CIA, 

3 ^^^^^^^^^H and Bob Viewers. From the Defense 

4 Department, Nester Sanchez while he was still 

5 employed there. From the Joint Chiefs of Staff, 

6 General Moehlering, and Colonel Croaker. And from 

7 the State Department, Mr. Abrams, Mr. Walker, 

8 frequently Mr. Michael. Depending upon the issue, 

9 it might be any of the other deputy assistant 

10 secretaries and myself. 

11 Q Was there anyone designated as a note 

12 taker at these meetings? 

13 A No. 

14 Q Were notes kept, to your knowledge, of 

15 the matters discussed at the RIG? 

16 A I don't know of any systematic 

17 notekeeping. 

18 Q Did you keep notes? 

19 A Not generally. 

20 Q Were any minutes maintained of the RIG 

21 meetings? 

22 A Not that I'm aware of. 

2 3 Q Were the meetings recorded in any way, 

24 tape-recorded or otherwise? 

2 5 A No, not that I'm aware of. 



UNCt^SIFIty 



10 



707 



UNCUSSIFIEO 



1 Q At a typical session of the RIG dealing 

2 with Central America, of all of the people you have 

3 named here approximately what was the usual number 

4 of people that would attend a RIG on Central 

5 America, understanding it would fluctuate. 

6 A I would say 8 to 10, 8 to 12 . 

7 Q What was the function of the RIG? 

8 A I would say it was part informational for 

9 the various agencies, and partly a consensus- 

10 reaching group. 

11 Q Would it be fair to say that the RIG 

12 would deal with day-to-day foreign policy in Central 

13 America? 

14 A I would say it was a little broader than 

15 that, since it did not meet on a daily basis, but 

16 pretty current, yes. 

17 Q In other words, it did deal with policy 

18 matters and come to conclusions and make decisions 

19 with regard to implementation of broad foreign 

20 policy on Central America? 

21 A It did — I wouldn't say it came to 

22 decisions systematically. 

23 Q And it worked on a consensus basis? 

24 A That's right. 

25 Q If a consensus couldn't be reached, it 



UNMSire 



708 



UNCUSSIflEO 



1 would have to be kicked up to the next level? Is 

2 that right? 

3 A That's my understanding, yes. 

4 Q Now was there a smaller working group 

5 within the RIG that dealt with matters involving the 

6 Nicaraguan Opposition? 

7 A I wouldn't say so, specifically. There 

8 were meetings occasionally of a smaller numiser, but 

9 those meetings might cover other issues in Central 

10 America as well. 

11 Q Well, then, striking the limitation of 

12 dealing with the Nicaraguan Opposition, was there 

13 then generally just a smaller working group of the 

14 RIG? 

15 A There were meetings of what might be 

16 referred to as a "mini-RIG," yes. 

17 Q And I believe you — well, earlier today I 

18 had an opportunity to go through some of the notes 

19 that you provided. I noticed in there that in fact 

20 there was one reference to a term that you had used 

21 during our interviews some weeks ago, the 

22 "RIGlette." 

23 A Not a formal term. 

24 Q I understand. The R-I-G-l-e-t-t-e. 

25 A Not a formal term. 



UNttASSIFIED 



12 



709 



yNCI^SIFItli 



1 Q I understand. The RIGlette was not a 

2 formal organizational construct within the ARA, but 

3 there was in fact a smaller working group that had 

4 some kind of an informal identity, as such. Is that 

5 right? 

6 A I would say so, yes. 

7 Q And who were the members of this smaller 

8 working group, or RIGlette? 

9 A As I recall it, it was Mr. Abrams, Mr. 

10 Walker, again it might have been Mr. Michael on 

11 occasion,^^^^^^HH and/or Colonel North and Mr. 

12 Burghardt. 

13 Q Of the two, between Colonel North and Ray 

14 Burghardt, would it be fair to say that as far as 

15 attendance or involvement in this mini-RIG, Colonel 

16 North was the usual participant from the NSC as 

17 opposed to Ray Burghardt? 

18 A I would say that he was more frequently 

19 in attendance. 

20 Q And would it also be fair to say that 

21 there were several times when the mini-RIG got 

22 together that there were in fact just the three in 

23 attendance, Abrams ,^^^^^| and North? 

24 A I can't speak to that, because I wasn't 

25 obviously at those meetings. It's possible that 



DNMSIREO 



710 



UNCkAS^tREI 



1 those meetings took place, but I'm not aware of them 

2 on a systematic basis. 

3 Q Did this smaller working group meet with 

4 any frequency during the time period from November 

5 of 1985 to April of 1986? 

6 A You're not talking about the three now; 

7 you're talking about the larger? 

8 Q No, I'm talking about the smaller working 

9 group . 

10 A Just Abrams,^^^^H and North? 

11 Q Well, perhaps one or two others in 

12 addition to that. 

13 A Well, the group that I described to you 

14 met fairly frequently in that period. 

15 Q My question though is, with regard^:to 

16 this mini-RIG. 

17 A Yes, I'm sorry. You've distinguished 

18 between what I referred to and described as the 

19 mini-RIG or RIG-lette, and a meeting between] 
2 North, and Abrams that I am not speaking to. 

21 Q I understand. Let me drop that 

22 distinction — 

23 A Fine. 

24 Q — and just deal with the mini-RIG that 

25 you described which would include Secretary Abrams, 



UNCtllSStFe 



14 



711 



UNOASSIFIED 



1 sometimes WiHiara Walker-- 

2 A Right. 

3 Q — sometimes Jim Michael. 

4 A Okay. 

5 Q It would usually include^^^^^^^^^H and 

6 would usually include Colonel North, although there 

7 were times it could have Ray Burghardt in 

8 substitution for Colonel North. 

9 A Right. Now what was the question? 

10 Q The question is, did that mini-RIG meet 

H with some frequency during the time period of 

12 November of 1985 to April of 1986? 

13 A Less frequently than the RIG, but it was 

14 a regular occurrence. 

15 Q _ JMould it be fair to say that it met 

16 anywhere from two to four times a month? 

17 A Yes. 

18 Q Did Secretary Abrams ever describe for 

19 you or discuss with you any of the topics that were 

20 discussed at a mini-RIG meeting? 

21 A One in which I was not in attendance? 

22 Q Yes. 

23 A No. Well, not that I can recall. 

24 Q Well, let me ask it this way then: You 

25 were his special assistant during that time period? 



UmSSIFlEO 



15 



712 



UNCy^SIFIED 



1 A Part of that time period. 

2 Q Well, I'm specifically talking about 

3 November of 1985 to April of 1986. 

4 A Oh, okay. 

5 Q During that time period, were there 

6 matters that to your knowledge Secretary Abrams was 

7 not sharing with you that were being discussed at 

8 the RIG? 

9 A That were being discussed at the RIG? 

10 . Q At the mini-RIG. 

11 A At the mini-RIG at which I was not in 

12 attendance? 

13 Q Yes. 

14 A I can't tell you — how would I know 

15 whether he was not sharing something with me? 

16 Q Well, did you ever get the impression 

17 that matters at the mini-RIG were so tightly held 

18 that it was not being shared with you. Secretary 

19 Abrams Special Assistant? 

20 A I would say that if I was not invited to 

21 a meeting, that my assumption at the time was that 

22 there were things being discussed at the meeting 

23 which I was not intended to know about. 

24 Q How many meetings of the mini-RIG did you 

25 attend? 



UNCtJtSSIFIED 



16 



713 



IINCUSSIFIED 



1 A I really couldn't say, but I would say on 

2 the average of two a month. 

3 Q Okay. What topics were discussed at the 

4 mini-RIG during the times you were in attendance? 

5 A The topics that I recall, frequently the 

6 subject was the upcoming Congressional votes on 

7 contra aid, and on the issue of the contras 

8 specifically I recall meetings discussing the issues 

9 of contra leadership and factual disputes within the 

10 contra leadership. 

11 Q Did any of the meetings of the mini-RIG 

12 that you attended deal with problems of supply to 

13 the contras? 

14 A I don't remember that in that time period 

15 that you're discussing. 

16 Q Was there another time period that you do 

17 recall such discussions? 

18 A I recall discussions later I think in the 

19 summer of 1986 about shortages that the contras were 
2 going to be facing. 

21 Q Tell me about those discussions. 

22 A Well, generally it was the time at which 

23 the humanitarian assistance money was running out, 

24 and in the expectation that ultimately Congress 

25 would vote aid there were discussions about the fact 



UNMSIFIED 



17 



714 




1 that the contras would be running out of the 

2 humanitarian supplies in that period. 

3 Q Were any conclusions reached about 

4 anything that could be done to alleviate the 

5 situation? 

6 A I don't recall conclusions, but I recall 

7 discussions of going to solicit from third countries 

8 humanitarian assistance. 

9 Q Now we're talking about discussions at 

10 meetings of what group? 

11 A I can't differentiate. I mean, they 

12 could have been at RIGs, or at the smaller meeting, 

13 or both. 

14 Q Did the discussions concerning 

15 solicitation specifically limit such solicitation to 

16 humanitarian aid? 

17 A The discussions, the concerns were as I 

18 recall them shortages of things like clothing, and 

19 medicinal supplies, and food. So those were the 

20 shortages that I recall being discussed as a problem 

21 that needed to be dealt with. 

22 Q At any time that you're aware of, did any 
2 3 of the RIG meetings discuss government assistance to 

24 private groups who were aiding the contras? 

25 A No. 



mxmm. 



18 



715 



UNtttSSW 



1 Q Did any of the RIG meetings, to your 

2 knowledge, ever discuss the provision or the 

3 assistance--stri)ce that. 

4 Did they ever discuss military supply to 

5 the contras? 

6 A Not that I recall. 

7 Q Did you ever discuss either of those two 

8 topics with Secretary Abrams during the time that 

9 you were Special Assistant? 

10 A Either of what two topics? 

11 Q Government assistance to the private 

12 groups, or military supply to the contras? 

13 A No, not that I recall. No. 

14 Q When did you first become aware of the 

15 existence of a secret air field 

16 A I must say, at the time that I became 

17 aware of it, I didn't know whether it was a secret 

18 air field or not a secret air field; but I can't 

19 remember exactly. I believe it was late — you will 

20 know better than I do, but late summer or early fall 

21 of 1986. 

22 Q Are you talking about the press 

23 conference issue that came up-- 

24 A That's right. 

25 Q — in September of 1986? 



UNEtftSSIflB 



716 



isnssife 



1 A That's right. 

2 Q That was when you first became aware of 

3 it? 

4 A That's right. 

5 Q When solicitation, or the possibility of 

6 solicitation from foreign countries was discussed in 

7 times when you were present, were the names of 

8 specific countries ever mentioned? 

9 A Yes. 

10 Q What countries do you recall being 

11 mentioned? 

12 A Well, I recall countries being mentioned 

13 and then discarded as possible, but merely 
mentioned ,P|||^^^^^^HH^^H^^H|H|^H even 

15 ^^^^^^BH Those are the ones that I recall. But 

16 as I say, some of those were discarded. 

17 MR. SCHWEITZER: Excuse me one second. 

18 [The Witness and Mr. Schweitzer confer.] 
THE WITNESS: ^^^^^^^^^Bmay have been 

20 discussed, too. It's possible. 

21 BY MR. SMILJANICH: (Resuming) 

22 Q Were any of these countries that you have 

23 mentioned, to your knowledge, approached for a 

24 specific solicitation? 

25 A I have no knowledge of that. 



DNCGSSIflEli 



717 



UNClASSIFIEll 



21 



1 Q The information you had was each of the 

2 countries you named were all eventually discarded as 

3 a possibility? 

4 A No, I don't know that. I know that it 

5 was--I understood from Mr. Abrams that it was the 

6 Secretary of State's view that countries with which 

7 we had a large aid relationship should not be 

8 included on that list. So I would say| 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^m there was a 

10 an obligation with those kinds of countries. 

11 But as for the others, I would say^^HHf 

12 ^^^^^1 falls into that category, too. 

13 As for the others, I don't know what 

14 action was taken. 

15 Q You were not aware of the solicitation, 

16 successful solicitation, to the Government of Brui^|l 

17 until the matter became public sometime later? 

18 A That's right. 

19 Q When did you first meet Colonel North? 

20 A Sometime, I would say, in December of 

21 1985 or January of 1986. Sometime after I came on 

22 to work on the Bureau. 

23 Q You mean after you became a special 

24 assistant to Secretary Abrams? 

25 A That's right. 

1, 




718 




1 Q That's the time period in which you first 

2 met Colonel North? 

3 A That's right. 

4 Q What was the nature of your contacts with 

5 him? In other words, just in a general sense? 

6 A In a general sense, they were to be 

7 present at the meetings he was present at. 

8 Q Did you ever meet with Colonel North in 

9 his office? 

10 . A Yes. 

11 Q On how many occasions are we talking 

12 about? Just a few, or several? 

13 A I would say maybe 10 times, 15 times, 

14 maybe less than that. 

15 Q Were these at meetings in his office, or 

16 one-on-one conversations with him, or mixtures of 

17 the two? 

18 A They were usually one-on-one 

19 conversations. 

20 Q And again in general, what was the nature 

21 of your discussions with Colonel North in his 

22 office? 

2 3 A I would say they fall into the categories 

24 of discussions of the congressional situation; 

25 discussions of my area of responsibility, public 




22 



719 



UNCu^lFItU 



1 diplomacy, and how White House presidential actions 

2 in support of the public policy effort [sic], and I 

3 also discussed with him my concerns about contra 

4 leadership disputes. 

5 Q Okay. Were you aware during the time 

6 period that you were Secretary Abrams^ Special 

7 Assistant that Colonel North was involved in any way 

8 in obtaining lethal aid for the contras? 

9 A No, I was not. 

10 Q Were you aware that Colonel North /i^s 

11 involved in any specific fund-raising activities on 

12 behalf of the contras? 

13 A I was not aware of specific fund-raising 

14 activities. 

15 Q Did you have a general sense that Colonel 

16 North was involved in such activities? 

17 AX had a perception that he was either 

18 involved or knew of people who were involved. 

19 Q Where did you get that perception? 

20 A I have been racking my brain to come up 

21 with an answer to this guestion. I do not have an — 

22 I do not know how I developed that perception. 

23 Q Can you tell me if it was common 

24 knowledge around the State Department or around 

25 Washington that Colonel North was involved in such 



UNCmSIFIEIi 



23 



720 



UNOtMSIFIEII 



1 activities? 

2 A I don't know whether it was common 

3 knowledge or not. 

4 Q Were you ever involved in any fundraising 

5 activities on behalf of the Freedom Fighters? 

6 A I'm sorry? 

7 Q Ever involved in any fundraising 

8 activities, yourself. 

9 A No. 

10 Q There were one or more occasions in which 

11 functions were put together which involved Secretary 

12 Abrams, I believe, perhaps giving a speech to a 

13 group of potential donors. Do you know what I'm 

14 talking about? 

15 A No, I don't, actually. 

16 Q To your knowledge, did Secretary Abrams 

17 ever participate in any White House briefings for 

18 potential donors? 

19 A I know he participated in White House 

20 briefings, but I was not aware that it was potential 

21 donors. 

22 Q What kind of White House briefings are 

23 you knowledgeable of? 

24 A There are briefings of what we call "core 

25 supporters," which I considered to be mostly keeping 



wmim 



24 



721 



UNCL'ASSIFIEU 



1 the faithful in support of the policy; meetings that 

2 were held in Room 450 at the White House where 

3 people speak to groups that are already involved in 

4 various different ways. But I was not aware that 

5 those were fund-raising activities. 

6 Q Did you participate in any of the 

7 briefings that Secretary Abrams conducted at the 

8 White House for these core supporters? 

9 A No. 

10 Q In other words, you didn't set them up, 

11 or go with him and assist him in any way with them? 

12 A Not during this period of time that 

13 you're talking about. I recall a briefing that he 

14 did in one of these rooms, but I believe it was in 

15 late 1986. I'd have to go back and check the 

16 calendar. 

17 Q Do I understand correctly that what you 

18 are saying is you do recall Secretary Abrams 

19 speaking to a group of core supporters at the White 

20 House one time in late 1986? 

21 A Um-hmm. 

22 Q What about prior to that? Do you recall 
2 3 any others? 

24 A He may have. I just don't recall them; 

25 and I don't recall being involved in them. 



UNCtttSSIFlEi) 



25 



722 



IINCl4SSIFiiy 



1 Q So the only one you can specifically 

2 recall that you could talk about in any way was one 

3 time in late 1986? 

4 A That's right. 

5 Q And how late in 1986? Can you be any 

6 more specific? 

7 A Just my recollection is after October. 

8 Q And was this something you just knew 

9 about? Or something you had some role in? 

10 A It was something that I had some role in. 

XI Q What was that role? 

12 A Well, actually it was my deputy, Dan 

13 Fisk, who was most involved in setting it up. 

14 Q What do you mean by "setting it up"? 

15 What exactly was done by your office, if not by you 

16 personally? 

17 A I'm not sure exactly what, but it was 

18 some — I mean, working it out with the White House to 

19 assemble this group of people to hear a speech from 

20 Mr. Abrams, and Mr. Sorzano at that time. 

21 Q Mister Who? 

22 A Ambassador Sorzano at the National 

23 Security Council now. 

24 Q Could you spell that for the court 

25 reporter? 



UNMSIFi^ 



26 



u 



723 



HNtussine 



1 A S-o-r-z-a-n-o. He's now in charge of 

2 Latin America for the National Security Council. 

3 Now that I mention that he's involved, it may even 

4 have been later than I'm talking about. It may have 

5 even have been 1987. 

6 Q So, I don't mean to be repetitious, but 

7 other than this one incident that you have some 

8 recollection of, you can't tell me about any other 

9 times in which Secretary Abrams went and gave any 

10 kind of a speech to a group of people at the White 

11 House about contra matters? 

12 A I'm sure he did other ones. I just can't 

13 recall any specifically. 

14 Q Go ahead. 

15 A Let me just say that you've been through 

16 my notes, and there is a reference to a meeting that 

17 in fact never took place in my notes. I don't know 

18 whether you're thinking about that or not. 

19 Q No, I'm not. I'm frankly not zeroing in 

20 on any particular thing. 

21 A Okay. 

22 Q Let me look at the notes I took here. 

23 No. What is in your notes that didn't take place? 

24 A There was just going to be a meeting 

25 while he was in Miami. There were some people who 

----- y-T- 



umssiFiti 



27 



724 




ILil 



1 wanted to get a briefing on the situation in Central 

2 America, but it never came off. I just didn't know 

3 whether you were referring to that or not. 

4 Q Do you recall who those group of people 

5 were? 

6 A It was set up by someone named Thor 

7 Renee, but I don't know who the other participants 

8 were. 

9 Q Did you know a man by the name of Spitz 

10 Channell? 

11 A Yes. 

12 Q When did you first meet him? 

13 A I believe it was the late summer or early 

14 fall of '86. 

15 Q Late summer, early fall. And in what 

16 context did you meet him? 

17 A I met him at a party, and then I later 

18 had lunch with him. 

19 Q Was this social, or business? 

20 A I guess it was mostly social. 

21 Q Well, tell me about the part that wasn't 

22 social. 

23 A Well, it wasn't social in the sense that 

24 we discussed — this was after the vote, and we 

25 discussed, you know, prospects for future contra aid 



umssiFifi 



28 



S 



725 



UNCmiFIED 



1 and the general political situation. So I guess you 

2 could say that was professional; but nothing in a 

3 professional — I mean, there were no actions that 

4 came out of the meeting, or anything like that. 

5 Q What did you understand his position, or 

6 role to be? 

7 A I understood him to be involved in an 

8 effort to put ads on television. That's basically 

9 it. Having to do with Central America. 

10 , Q Lobbying activities, public relations in 

11 connection with — 

12 A I don't know what "lobbying" is, so I 

13 won't say that, but they had some public relations, 

14 yes. 

15 Q And they concerned our foreign policy in 

16 Central America vis-a-vis the Sandanistas and the 

17 Freedom Fighters? Is that right? 

18 A Yes. 

19 Q Do you recall whether or not you were 

20 aware that Mr. Channellhad any organizations that he 

21 was working under in performing this role? 

22 K^^ z.ht, vome point I gathered that he was 

23 involved in something called the National Endowment 

24 for the Preservation of Liberty. 

25 Q Did Mr. Channel! ever ask you to do 



ONWSIFIED 



29 



726 



UNClASSIFe 



1 anything in connection with his work? 

2 A No. 

3 Q Did you offer to do anything in 

4 connection with his work? 

5 A No. 

^6 Q Did you do anything in connection with 

7 his work? 

8 A No. 

9 Q To your knowledge, did Secretary Abrams 

10 do anything for or on behalf of Mr. ChanneU or his 

11 organization? 

12 A Not to my knowledge. 

13 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Channell or 

14 his organization has ever put together any large 

15 fund-raisers, not at the White House, but just fund- 

16 raisers in which Secretary Abrams might have come 

17 and spoken to them? 

18 A I'm not aware of any. 

19 Q And you never did anything like that? 

20 A No. 

21 Q Are you aware of any secret briefings 

22 that were put together or conducted on behalf of 

23 supporters of the contra policy? 

24 A No. 

25 Q Secret briefings at the White House, for 



UNffiSIFIED 



30 



727 



mwrnm 



1 example, or things that were advertised to people ^fJ|^ 

2 secret briefings by the National Security Council or 

3 other people? 

4 A No. 

5 Q The briefings of core supporters that you 

6 talked about generally, who were these core 

7 supporters? Who would they be? 

8 A Oh, there's the Interamerican Security 

9 Council; there's Sam Dickens and whatever his 

10 organization is; I mean they could be any number of 

11 people. I'm not sure how the lists were put 

12 together. But Penn Campbell of Prudemka might be in 

13 attendance. At the one that I recall, there were 

14 journalists present, too, I believe. 

15 Q Okay. 

16 A Not that they were core supporters. 

17 Citizens for Reagan. 

18 Q Going to your notes that, as I described 

19 for you before we went on the record here we are not 

20 able to have copies with us today, but I took notes 

21 of your notes. Let me just ask you about a couple 

22 of matters. 

23 First of all, there were no years 

24 indicated on the notes, and it was hard to tell 

25 whether we were dealing with '85 or '86. 



DNCttSSII 



31 



728 



UNWSiriED 



1 A Do you want me to tell you? 

2 Q Yes. 

3 A The period that you saw is about 

4 September of '86 through January of '86 — I mean, 

5 through January of '87. 

6 Q Okay. That makes sense. Because I saw a 

7 reference on October 20, you had written in your 

8 notes the name Hasenfus, and then you had a 

9 telephone number, and underneath it it said "Ernie 

10 Plagar," and then underneath it said, "don't need 

11 money." 

12 A I guess it matters whether it is '86 or 

13 '85. 

14 [Laughter.] 

15 Q That's why I wanted to know if that was 

16 October of '86 or October of '85. That would make a 

17 big difference. October of '86. Do you recall what 

18 that particular note was about? 

19 A Yes. Colonel North has asked me to get 

20 ahold of the telephone number of Hasenfus' lawyer to 

21 see whether there was sufficient money, I guess, for 

22 the legal defense fund, and I did so. 

23 Q To the best of your knowledge, why would 

24 Colonel North call upon you to do something like 

25 that? 



l/NBtftSSIflEO 



32 



729 



UNCkl^lFIED 



1 A I don't know. 

2 Q I know you can't speak for him, but can 

3 you tell me, based upon your relationship with him, 

4 why you the coordinator of public diplomacy at the 

5 time would be the person who would want to call to 

6 make contact with Mr. Hasenfus' lawyer? 

7 A I think he could have called any number 

8 of people. Maybe he didn't get them on the phone 

9 before he got me on the phone. But since I went to 

10 the Office of Central American Affairs to get that 

11 information, it was not as if there was any special 

12 channel . 

13 Q Okay. Did you maintain any kind of 

14 relationship with the various contra leaders 

15 themselves? 

16 A Only from a professional point of view. 

17 Q That's what I meant, from a professional 

18 point of view. 

19 A Yes. 

2 Q In what way? Just start with who you 

21 would deal with on a person-to-person basis among 

22 the contra leaders. 

23 A Well, none of them on a very regular 

24 basis; but I would say all three of the I'craders^ of 

25 that time: Arturo Cruz, Alfonso Robelo, and to a 



UNCtSSSinEO 



730 



mmim 



34 



1 

2 

3 

4 

5 

6 

7 

8 

9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



lesser extent Aldolfo Calero. 

Q To a lesser extent Calero? 

A '^es. 

Q Why to a lesser extent Calero when he is 
actually in some ways much more involved in UNO 
activities? 

A Well, it was my hope that Cruz and Robelo 
would become more involved in the factional dispute 
between those three. I was regarded, and rightly 
so, as a supporter of Cruz and Robelo. 

Q Would it be fair to say that one of the 
major problems with contra factionalism during that 
time period, and perhaps even to today, is trying to 
keep the other contra factions associated with 
Calero 's group, the FDN? 

A Yes, I would say that. I might 
characterize them differently, but that's about 
right. 

Q Also, isn't it fair to say that a lot of 
the major problems with regard to contra 
factionalism emanated from the Southern Front groups 



A I wouldn't say so. Cruz and Robelo — 
Robelo really didn't represent much in the way of 
the Southern Front, and Cruz represented almost 



fiNttSlfiEO 



731 



UNWSIFIED 



1 nothing in the way of fighters on any front, and I 

2 was mostly concerned with the sort of political 

3 relationships, not the military relationships. 

4 Q Did you have any dealings with Negro 

5 Chamorro? 

6 A Only once when he came in to visit Mr. 

7 Abrams . 

8 Q Tell me about that one time that you can 

9 recall, or what you can recall about it? 

10 . A What I can recall about it is that Negro 

11 Chamorro wanted to see Mr. Abrams I believe because 

12 he had seen that Cruz and Robelo and Calero saw Mr. 

13 Abrams, and I think he wanted to see Mr. Abrams, 

14 too. So there was just one meeting between the two 

15 of them at which several people were present, and 

16 since I don't speak Spanish I can't tell you exactly 

17 what transpired at that meeting. But my 

18 recollection is that nothing substantive did. 

19 Q You don't recall whether he asked for any 

20 help or assistance from Secretary Abrams? 

21 A I don't recall that, but again I'm at a 

22 disadvantage in not being able to speak the 

23 language. 

24 Q You don't speak Spanish? Is that right? 

25 A No, I don't. I try to understand it, but 



UmSSIFlEO 



35 



732 



Hlitl^SSIFIF^ 



1 when they talk too fast I don't get it. 

2 Q Do you have any foreign language 

3 proficiency? 

4 A I used to. I mean, I've spoken French, 

5 and Greek, and German. Spanish was the one lancfuage 

6 I didn't do. 

7 Q That's like me. 

8 A I hope you don't release that to the 

9 general public. That would be very embarrassing. 

10 Q What about Eden Pastora? Did you ever 

11 have any one-on-one dealings with him? 

12 A No, not one-on-one, but I was in two 

13 meetings with him that I can recall. 

14 Q When were they? 

15 A I would say August or September of 1986. 

16 Q Don't ask me. I don't know. 

17 A I'm asking myself, and that's the answer 

18 that I'm coming up with. 

19 Q Both meetings, you mean, during that same 

20 time frame? 

21 A Yes. 

22 Q What were the meetings about? 

2 3 A Well, Pastora was not at all part of the 

24 resistance effort at that time, and we at the State 

25 Department felt that it was a loss to have someone 



\immm 



36 



733 




1 of Pastora's personality and appeal to be completely 

2 uninvolved, and we were discussing with him whether 

3 he would not agree to lend his name to the effort, 

4 if nothing else. 

5 Q Back in March of 1986 when you were still 

6 Special Assistant to Secretary Abrams, there are 

7 various cables and memos concerning a problem that 

8 arose when Ambassador Tambs and others met with 

9 General Singlaub^^^^^^^^^H concerning an 

10 agreement that General Singlaub entered into with 

11 Eden Pastora. 

12 Were you at all a part of the loop, or a 

13 party to any of that controversy that erupted in 

14 March of '86? 

15 A I had no active role in that, other than 

16 to be aware that there was this issue, but I didn't 

17 have any role in it. 

18 Q Did you participate or attend any 

19 meetings in which General Singlaub came to 

20 Washington and met with Secretary Abrams? 

21 A No, I wasn't. 

22 Q So you've never been present at a meeting 

23 where Singlaub and Secretary Abrams were talking? 

24 A I've never met Mr. Singlaub. 

25 Q When I was asking you about any knowledge 



IINC»SSIF|[i) 



37 



734 



«Hft*ssira 



1 you nay have of fund-raising activities that 

2 involved in any way the White House, Colonel North, 

3 and I asked about Secretary Abrams, I didn't include 

4 the President. 

5 Were you aware of any fund-raising 

6 activities or secret briefings that took place in 

7 which the President talked to a group of people that 

8 were potential donors to the contra cause? 

9 A No. 

10 Q When did you first become aware that 

11 General Secord was involved in the supply network to 

12 the contras in Central America? 

13 A After the revelations in November. 

14 Q Before that, it was not a name that you 

15 associated with the contras in any way? 

16 A No. 

17 Q Okay, well, that may be all I have. 

18 [Pause.] 

19 Well, let me just ask, going back to the 

20 RIG for a moment, let me just ask it this way: More 

21 than one person besides you has described the fact 

22 that there was an official RIG, but that there was a 

23 smaller working group which primarily consisted of 

24 Secretary Abrams, Colonel North, and! 

25 Based on what you've told me so far 




38 



735 



mm\m 



1 today, I can't really tell whether you would agree 

2 with that perception of not. Can you just tell me 

3 whether or not you would agree with the perception 

4 that there was a three-man RIG that dealt with 

5 Central America? 

6 A All I can say is I have a hard time 

7 speaking to meetings at which I wasn't present, or 

8 the regularity of such meetings. But I don't have a 

9 recollection of a regular meeting like that. I 

10 don't want to say that that means it didn't happen; 

11 it just doesn't appear in my recollections. 

12 Q Well, I would like you to drop the word 

13 "regular" from your description. Not a regular 

14 meeting, once a week or once every other week or 

15 anything like that, but an unofficial grouping of 

16 the RIG consisting of those three individuals who 

17 dealt with contra matters, or tightly held matters 

18 involving Central America. Did you have any such 

19 perception during that time frame? 

20 A That there vere uq^ siohal nieetings with 

21 members of the RIG that I did not attend, I was 

22 aware that there were meetings like that. I don't 

23 know, are you trying to — I'm obviously not 

24 responding — 

25 Q No, all you can give me is your 

Ici 




736 



UNCL^iriEO 



1 perception of it. 

2 A I think I have pretty much characterized 

3 what my recollection is. 

4 Q Give me a second. 

5 [Pause.] 

6 Either before or after regular RIG 

7 meetings of the full RIG, did you ever perceive that 

8 those three individuals met together, as I say 

9 either before the full RIG got together or perhaps 

10 stayed around after the RIG broke up, to continue 

11 discussions of Central American policy? 

12 A I can recall instances wberv-tipit did 

13 happen, but I cannot say that that was a regular, to 

14 my recollection, that that was a regular occurrence. 

15 Q Okay. Hell, let me just ask you one more 

16 time then, and just give me in your own definition 

17 of what you nean when you refer to a mini-RIG or a 

18 RIG-lette, as mentioned once in your notes. 

19 A What I'm referring to are meetings where 
Mr. Abrams, Mr. Halker,|^^|^^HMr. North, 

21 sometimes Mr. Burghardt, and myself were present. 

22 Q Of that particular grouping, 

23 approximately how many times did it meet during the 

24 entire time you've been at the Department of State? 

25 A Well— 




40 



737 



uNCUssra 



1 Q If you can't give me a number, give me so 

2 many times a month, an average. 

3 A I would say twice a month, on average. 

4 Q And that's different from what's 

5 currently — there's currently a smaller grouping 

6 called the IG/N — 

7 A It's not smaller. 

8 Q How big is the IG/N? 

9 A About IS^people. You've got the Office 

10 of the Legal Adviser represented — 

11 [Laughter.] 

12 MR. SMILJANICH: That's really all I 

13 have. 

14 EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 

15 BY MR. TRAYLOR: 

16 Q I just wanted to follow up on one point 

17 discussed earlier. Is it fair to say that you said 

18 that it was your impression that Oliver North was 

19 involved in military resupply of the contras? 

20 A No. 

21 Q That's not fair? 

22 A No. 

23 Q What was your impression? I must have 

24 misunderstood you. 

25 A You'd have to ask me — tell me what the 



li^msmii 



738 



mmmi 



1 question was, again. 

2 Q We were talking about Oliver North, and 

3 Mr. Smiljanich asked you if you had any knowledge 

4 that he was involved in resupply of the contras. 

5 MR. SMILJANICH: My recollection is then 

6 I asked you about fund-raising, and it was about 

7 fund-raising that you said you had had some 

8 percept i<»i. 

9 THE WITNESS: That's right, but not 

10 having anything to do with resupply. 

11 ^ BY -MR. r TRAY LOR: Resuming 

12 Q Do you have any knowledge, or did you 

13 have the impression that Oliver North was involved? 

14 A No, I didn't. 

15 EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF SENATE SELECT COMMITTEE— 

16 Resumed 

17 BY MR. SMILJANICH: (Resuming) 

18 Q Did you know a man by the name of Robert 

19 Owen? 

20 A I met him, yes. 

21 Q How many times? 

22 A Twice. 

23 Q In what connection? 

24 A I met him at a party, and we later had 

25 lunch. I guess it was three times, because then I 



uNCGtssire 



739 



UNCUSSIFIED 



1 think he came to my office once. 

2 Q V«?hen was this? 

3 A This is again in September '86, 

4 thereabouts . 

5 Q During the period from October of '85 

6 until about May, June, or July of '86, he and his 

7 company, IDEA, had a contract with the Niacaraguan 

8 Humanitarian Assistance Office. Did you know him 

9 during that time frame? 

10 A No. 

11 Q Did you know who he was during that time 

12 frame? 

13 A I don't think during that time frame I 

14 did. I had read at some point press accounts, or 

15 press allegations about Bob Owen, but I had never 

16 met him prior to September '86. 

17 Q Did you ever ask Oliver North about 

18 Robert Owen? 

19 A No. 

20 Q Did you ever hear the names — let me just 

21 give you a series of names and ask you if you've 

22 ever heard of any of these names, prior to the 

23 eruption of the various controversies, going back to 

24 the '85 through let's say October of '86 time frame, 

25 if you're aware of any of these names ever come up 



UNCtASSIFIED 



43 



740 



IINCtMSIFIffl 



44 



1 in connection with the Nicaraguan Opposition. 

2 General Secord? 

3 A No. 

4 Q Albert Hakin. 

5 A No. 

6 Q Rafael Quintero. 

7 A No. 

8 Q Tom Cllnes. 

9 A No. 

10 Q Ted Shackley. 

11 A No. 

12 Q Felix Rodriguez. Did you know who Felix 

13 Rodriguez was? 

14 A No. 

15 Q Sometimes he's referred to as Max Gomez. 

16 Did you ever hear the name Max Gomez during that 

17 time frame? 

18 A No. 

19 Q Did you ever have any dealings directly 

20 with 

21 A When I went on the orientation trip that 

22 I told you eibout in October of '86, I participated 

23 in a — I was briefed by the Country Team| 
^^^Hwhich — 

25 Q Included? 



I'NC,^^»0 



741 



mm\m 



A ^^^^^^^^^^^H was present. sure 

2 at the time I knew his name was Thomas Castillo. 

3 Q Or vice versa. 

4 [Laughter.] 

5 Okay, let me go back to one other thing. 

6 I'm sorry. Vou just mentioned an orientation trip 

7 you took through Central America in late 1986. 

8 A Right . 

9 Q What other trips have you ever taken to 

10 Central America? 

11 A I have made one trip, I believe in June 

12 or July, to the contra camps 

13 Q And who accompanied you on that trip? 

14 A Mr. Abrams, Mr. Armitage from the Defense 

15 Department ,fl^^^^^^H Mr. Burghardt, Mr. Walker, 

16 Mr. Sanchez, I believe General Moellering, and Danny 

17 Wattenberg, and I don't recall any of the others. 

18 MR. SMIL7ANICH: That's all I have. 

19 MR. TRAYLOR: I don't have any questions. 

20 MR. SCHWEITZER: May I speak with Mr. 

21 Kagan one second? 

22 MR. SMILJANICH: Sure. 

23 [Pause.] 

24 BY MR. SMILJANICH: (Resuming) 

25 Q Okay, Mr. Kagan, after a brief recess 



mmm 



45 



a 



742 



mm\m 



1 here we have — and after we reconvened, you just told 

2 me off the record aboQt a time In September of 1986 

3 in which a problem came up in connection with the 

4 local UNO offices, and your role in passing a 

5 message on to somebody else. 

6 Would you just go ahead and repeat that 

7 for us on the record? 

8 A Yes. In about August or September of 
'86, ^^^mmm^H the wo 

10 which is merely their representation here in the 

11 United States, informed me that they had a severe 

12 financial shortage, and essentially that they needed 

13 about $25,000. I raised this with various people in 

14 the Government, just alerting them to this problem, 

15 and I also raised it with Colonel North who then 

16 asked me to get ahold of the budget that the UNO- 

17 Washington Office had prepared for itself, and an 

18 account number. And I did so, and I passed that on 

19 to Colonel North, and my understanding is that at 

20 some time later they did receive $25,000. 

21 Q And you don't know where the $25,000 came 

22 from that they actually received? 

23 A No, I don't. 

24 Q When you say you got an account number, 

25 do you mean the local banking account that the UNO 



mmmii 



46 



743 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 

10 

11 

12 

13 

14 

15 

16 

17 

18 

19 

20 

21 

22 

23 

24 

25 



ONCIASSIFIED 



office would maintain where funds could be deposited 
into? » 

A ^^^^P^^ ^33 — I believe it was) 
account. ^I^Ib 

Q But some type of banking account where 
the funds were to be deposited? 

A Well, I have since been told by^^^| 
[that it was actually his sister's account 
number. 

^^^^^^^^^H being 




A That's right. 

Q Were you ever aware of Oliver North's 
role in distributing money to various contra leaders 
that were short on cash, or needed funds for a 
particular purpose? 

A No. 

Q Were you aware that Colonel North had a 
source of funds in a safe in his office that he 
could distribute cash to the various contra leaders 
when they were visiting in Washington? 

A No. 

Q Did any contra leaidtors ever tell you they 
had received cash or traveler's checks from Oliver 
North to cover expenses? 



W' 



Ul 



*••, 




744 



KlISSIfltB 



1 A No. 

2 Q Did he ever tell you he had done that? 

3 A No. 

4 MR. SMILJANICH: Okay, for the second 

5 time, that is all I have. 

6 THE WITNESS: I won't come back. 

7 MR. TRAYLOR: We won't come back. We 

8 really mean it this time. 

9 [Laughter. ] 

10 MR. SMILJANICH: Okay. Thank you very 

11 much. 

12 MR. SCHWEITZER: Terry/ let me just ask 

13 you, do you think Bob will be called by your 

14 Committee? 

15 MR. SMIUANICH: I don't think so, no. 

16 MR. SCHWEITZER: Good. 

17 MR. SMILJANICH: There are no promises, 

18 but I don't think so. 

19 MR. SCHWEITZER: We will not waive 

20 signature of the deposition. We would like to see 

21 it and have Mr. Kagan review it, and I would make 

22 the request to Mr. Smiljanich that if a copy of the 

23 deposition is available pursuant to the Committee 

24 Rules for witnesses, we would request and pay for a 

25 copy of the deposition transcript. 



IJ 




48 



745 




1 MR. SMILJANICH: For the record, my 

2 understanding is that the Committee Rules prohibit 

3 the release of the transcripts to anybody, including 

4 the witness, but I will doublecheck into that. I 

5 have also stated to Mr. Schweitzer that if for any 

6 reason Mr. Kagan needs to review his testimony, I 

7 would certainly make arrangements for him to do so. 

8 And if he were ever to be called as a witness, 

9 certainly we would provide him the opportunity to 

10 review his transcript. 

11 Thank you. 

12 MR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you. 

13 [Whereupon, at 4:08 p.m., the deposition 

14 in the above-entitled matter was adjourned.] 

15 * * * 




746 



mmmt, 



1 

2 

3 SIGNATURE OF THE WITNESS 

4 SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this 

5 day of , 1987. 

6 

7 



8 Notary Public 

9 My Commission Expires; 




747 




CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 



I, 



JANE W. BEACH 



, the officer 



before whom the foregoing deposition was ..aken, do hereby certify 
that the witness whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition 

was duly sworn by ^^E ; that the testimony of 

said witness was taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter 
reduced to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition is a 
true record of the testimony given by said witness; that I am neither 
counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the 
action in which this deposition was taken, and further that I am not 
a relative or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the 
parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested in the 
outcome of the action. 




I^Mu^k 



NOTARY PUBLIC 



My conmissicn expires_ 



/'-W-^l ^ 



UNCLASSIFIED 



748 



749 



1 

2 
3 

4 
5 
6 
7 
8 
9 
10 

n 

12 
13 
14 
15 
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17 
18 
19 
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23 
24 



,>aftblyl 



_^-ni 



UNCtffllEO 

DEPOSITION OF ROBERT WILLIAiM KAGAN 

United States Senate 
Select Committee on Secret 
Military Assistance to Iran 
and the Nicaraguan Opposition 
Washington, D.C. 
Deposition of ROBERT VJILLIAM KAGAN, a witness herein, 
called for examination by counsel for the Senate Select 
Committee, the witness being duly sworn by HICHAL ANN SCHAFER, 
a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, at the 
offices of the Senate Select Committee, 901 Hart Senate Office 
Building, Washington, D.C, at 2:00 p.m. on Tuesday, June 16, 
1937, and the proceedings being taken down by Stenomas); by 
MICHAL ANN SCHAFER and transcribed under her direction. 



\f''-t' 



H iltiwdon . 



provWora of LO. 12356 
D. SMo, Natioful Security Council 



mmm 



(749) 



750 



fin&mfB 



1 

2 
3 
4 
5 

6 
7 
8 
9 
10 
11 
12 
13 
14 
15 
16 
17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



APPEARANCES : 

On behalf of the Senate Select Committee: 
TERRY SMILJANICH, Esq. 
Associate Counsel 
901 Hart Senate Office Building 
Washington, D.C. 20510 
(202) 224-9960 

On behalf of the House Select Committee: 
TIMOTHY E. TRAYLOR, Special Agent 
Federal Bureau of Investigation 

On behalf of the Witness: 

WILLIAM H. SCHWEITZER, Esq. 
Baker & Hostetler 
1050 Connecticut Ave., N.W. 
Washington, D.C. 20036 
(202) 361-1531 



UNIFIED 



751 



8 

S 10 

o 

- n 
i '2 

o 

o 13 

O 
a. 

HI , c 

z 
o 
^ 16 

UJ 
Q 

< 17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



UNCtXMIED 



1 CONTENTS 

2 Deposition of: Examination by Counsel for the 

3 ROBERT WILLIAM KAGAN Senate 

4 By rir . Smiljanich: 4 
5 

6 ^-IHiBITS 

7 (None) 



mmim 



752 



vmmm 



£.5.2.£5.£2.i^£§. 

Whereupon, 

ROBERT WILLIAM KAGAM 
was called as a witness herein and, having been first duly 
sworn by the Notary Public, was examined and testified as 
follows : 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE SENATE SELECT 

COriiMITTEE 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: 
Q. One more time for the record. State your name. 
A. Robert Kagan. 

0. Mr. Kagan, we've had a previous deposition. The 
reason I asked you to come back is there's a few follow-up 
things I wanted to ask you about, including some references in 
some documents. 

Let me start off by noting that these are not 
documents you created or documents that you would necessarily 
have seen, but they refer to you and I wanted to see if you 
could tell us what you think they refer to or what you know 
they might refer to. ^ 

First of all, are you familiar with what's called a 
PROF note? ^^ .,. •^-.,^ 

A. I've read about it. I've heard about it. I wasn't 
familiar with it before. "* i^._^. 



^. Well, there was a system at the NSC nf rnmm\ini eating 

jMcr provisions of E.0. 12356 - • ., 

by O. Sirico, National Security Council ] 1 11 




753 



UNGISSSSIflED 



2 
3 

4 
5 
6 
7 
8 

I 10 

CM 
O 
CM 
- 11 

I 

'i 12 



o 



o 

^ 16 



17 
18 
19 
20 
21 
22 
23 
24 
25 



with each other by use of a system that was called a PROF. 
And there are notes that can be printed out of the various 
communications . 

There is a PROF note, and so I can perhaps not get 
into Codeword on this thing — I'd like to keep this at Secret 
if I can. This is a PROF note dated October 30, 1986, that was - 
A. October 30? 

g. October 30, 1986, sent at about 10:00 a.m. And it's 
a note from Craig Coy to Oliver North, and let me just read it 
into the record. It says: 

"Note from Craig P. Coy, subject: Help. Kagan 
called to say the transaction you were to arrange is desperately 
needed by the people who need the help." 

That's the sum total of the message. Do you have any 
recollection of what that's referring to? 

MR. SCWVEITZER: Do you mind if I take that and write 
that down, because you're not going to give me a copy? 

THE WITNESS: Do you want me to wait while you write 
that down? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: No, go ahead. 

THE WITNESS: I presume it's in reference to what I 
discussed with you at the end of the last deposition I gave, 
which was the fact that I had brought to Colonel North's 
attention the fact that the Washington office of the 
resistance didn't have funds to stay open. This office is here 



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to be a voice for the resistance. And he had advised me that 
he might be able to do something about that. 
BY MR. SMILJANICH: (Resuming) 

Q. Now, you're talking about the (Vashington office of 

UNO in particular? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When was it that you first had this conversation with 

^fcrth prior to this reference in this note, in terms of dates 
or weeks? 

A. I would say September. It may have been late 
August, early September. I can't be sure. 

Q. What the people needed in the Washington office of. 
UNO was funds to help them stay open? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Any particular amount of funds that they mentioned? 

A. Well, they had come up with a monthly budget of 
about 525,000 for office supplies and salaries. 

CL Now, who at UNO talked to you about it or told you 
about their need? 

A. 

Q. How do you spell the last name? 



Q. And his position? 

A. He's 

Q. So he said that they were in need of $25,000 a month? 





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VJell, yes. 

Roughly? 

Yes. 

And what didl 



[think you could do for 



them? 



A. He was just letting me know. I don't know that he 
thought I could do anything for him. 

& In other words, he didn't come to you directly to 
request of you and see if you could come up with the funds? 

A. Well, I think he came for advice or h^^^^^^^fand 
he just was explaining that he had a lot of things that he 
wanted to accomplish, but he didn't have any money. 

Ql Okay. Do you recall anyone else being present when 
he first talked about this to you? 

A. It's possible, but I don't remember. 

Q. So then you mentioned it in a conversation with 

Oliver Morth? 

A. Uh-hmm. 

Q. How soon after your conversation with^ 

A. I don't know. 

Ql Days, weeks, hours? 

A. Maybe weeks, not many weeks, I wouldn't say. 

Q. Do you have any kind of record that you could refer 

to that would pinpoint when it was you would have had this 
talk with North? Do you have any kind of office calendar that 



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would refer to it? 

A. No. 

Q. Any kind of notes you kept? 

A. Well, you've seen my notes. There are references in 
there, but it wouldn't reference when the first conversation 
took place. 

Q. When you talked to Oliver North about this, was this 

a conversation with him specifically directed to this request 



I, or did it come up in connection with something 




A. I don't recall the actual meeting. 

Q. Okay. Why did you mention it to Oliver North? 

A. Well, I mentioned the problem to a lot of people. 

Cl trjho else did you mention it to? 

A. Well, there was a working group at the White House 
it was actually NSC, chaired by Walt Raymond, at which I just 
noted the fact that these guys were — a lot of things were 
being expected of them and they were really short of funds. 
And Colonel North may have been present at one of those. 

Q. I'm trying to place that. What do you mean, a 

working group chaired by Walt Raymond? What working group is 
that? 

A. That was the public diplomacy working group on 
Central America. 

Q. Consisting of who? 



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A. Walt Raymond, sometimes Ray Burkhardt, but I don't 

know how often, and sometimes Colonel North, much less 

frequently; people from USIA, me from State and maybe somebody 

i 
else from State, somebody from DOD. I 

Q. Who, do you know? 

A. Maybe Kay Stevenson. 

So I brought it up in that context, too. 

Q. What was the life of that working group? I mean, when 

did it start? Is it still in existence? 

A. Not really, because Walt Raymond has moved from the 
NSC to USIA. I mean, there were similar things set up, but 
that was there before I arrived, so I don't know how long ago 
it was set up. 

Q. How often did it meet? 

A. About once a week or once every two weeks. 

Q. What was on its agenda? I mean, what was it supposed 

to do? 

A. It was basically keeping track of v/hat v/as being 
done by my office and the public affairs office in the Defense 
Department and what the White House was doing in terms of, 
you know, the general public diplomacy effort. 

Q. Now, this is not the same thing as what's also 

referred to as the Fortier group? 

A. No. 

Q. Was this geared toward atte mpts to do what you could 



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UNlffilFIED 



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with? 



to get the contra programs through Congress? 

A. It was a little bit more. It was really more general. 
It was really to do what we could to get the facts on the 
Central American situation out to the public at large and 
overseas . 

CV So you may have mentioned it or you did mention it to 
one of the meetings of this working group? 

A. Yes. 

Ql Who else did you discuss the plight ol 

A. I mentioned it to Mr. Abrams. 

Q. Did he say there was anything he thought could be 

done? 

A. No. 

CL Anyone else? 

A. It's possible. I just don't remember anyone else. 

You say North may have been present when you brought 
it up at the working group meeting chaired by Walt Raymond. 
Do you also recall separatelya meeting with Oliver North in 
which this subject came up? 

A. I believe there was a separate conversation. I 
don't recall it specifically, and I don't remember if it was 
over the phone or face to face. 

n. And Oliver North said he thought he might be able 



to help? 



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A. Yes. 

Q. Is that, all he said? I mean, did he elaborate on 

what he meant by that? 

A. Well, he told me to get a budget f ron^^^^^^Hand an 
account number. 

0. You mean a contra account number in Washington? 

A. Well, he didn't specify. He just said some account 
number . 

& 

A. 

Q- 



Anything else he said^ 
No. 

Did he say where he thought he might be able to come 
up v/ith the necessary funds? 

A. No. 

Q. And you didn't ask him? 

A. No . 

0- Did you have any assumptions as to where North might 
be able to get a hold of the funds that would be necessary to 
keep the UNO office going? 

A. VJell, my sense was that he knew of people who had a 
lot of money. But I don't know. You know, I didn't have any 
evidence of that, but I just felt that way. 

g. I understand that you didn't have any evidence of 
that. Where did you get that feeling from? 

A. You asked me this the last time and I've been thinking 
hard about what led me to that impression, and I've reai.iv. 

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honestly not been able to come up with anything in particular. 

0- Did you have a sense as to what kind of people it was 
that he had access to? 

A. I didn't have a sense. I mean, when you say did you 
have a sense, that means did I obtain it. I mean, in my mind 
I thought that he knew rich American private citizens. 

0. Did you have any sense that North had previously 
raised money for other purposes? 

A. No . 

Q. Well, you must have had some belief that this wasn't 

a first time event for him? 

A. Yes. 

g. What did you believe had occurred in the past? I 
understand' you didn't have any direct information or evidence 
of it. 

A. I know what you're and why you're asking it, and I 
just didn't — I can't explain v/hy. I had this sense. And you 
can ask questions, which, well, did you do this and did you 
ever see this or did you ever see that, and you can go through 
that and I can give you answers to that. 

But I really just don't know why I particularly had 
that impression. 

Q. Did you ever have any information, be it third-hand, 
rumor, whatever, that Oliver North had access to a supply of 
funds that he was f>S7l7ig -enrt— fe«wjt9xipjj,s_contra leaders? 



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UWSIFIfD 



13 



A. No. 

Q. You have probably read or heard the testimony of some 

people that he kept traveler's checks in his safe. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Over $100,000 worth, that were used to make payments 

to various^^^^^^^^^^^^H leaders or other contra leaders. You 
had absolutely no information on that one way or the other? 

A. Absolutely not. 

Ql No clue of that? 

A. No. 

0. No one ever hinted to you that Oliver North had this 
kind of access to money directly from his office? 

A. No. 

C. So that's not part of the general sense you had of 
North's access, possible access to money? 

A. Right. 

0. In January, late January of 1986, the Channell-Miller | 

people put together a function that I believe Elliott Abrams | 

j 
spoke at, and I think it was the January one which included a 

visit to the Roosevelt Room and I think maybe a drop-by by 

the President. 

There is two events. There is one in January and 
there is one in March. I tend to get the two mixed up. 

Were you involved in any way in the preparation for 
or attendance at either or both of those two events? 



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A. No. I think the last time you asked me whether I 
knew about those events, and I didn't recall them. 

Q. Okay. There are some indications — and I don't have 
those with me -- that when Elliott Abrams first met with 
Richard Miller to discuss his assistance in connection with 
these events, vjhich weren't fund-raisers as I understood it, 
but basically thank-you's for past assistance and also an 
encouragement to support the Administration policy in Central 
America, that you may have been involved in some of those 
early, like a luncheon meeting in early January with Miller 
and with Elliott Abrams. 

Do you have any recollection of that? 

A. No, and I don't believe I've found anything like that 
on my calendar. 

g. Also, I remember specifically there's a phone 
message in the documents produced by Richard Miller in November 
of '36 which refer to Elliott Abrams being available for a 
meeting, and it states: "Bob Kagan is also available." 

Do you have any recollection of any discussions about 
possibly meeting with these people in November of 1986? 

A. I don't have that recollection, no. 

Q. Going back to January of 1986, what did you know of 
what was going on there? You say you didn't have any 
particular involvement or role in it. Did you know that there 
was — I mean, this was Elliott Abrams who was involved in 



imMim 



763 



SECRET 



15 



making a speech to some people. 

Did you know that that was happening? 

MR. SCHWEITZFR: Excuse me, Terry. I don't understand 
your question. Could you restate that for me, please? 
BY MR. SMILJAMICH: (Resuming) 

Q. In January 1986 there was a function put together 
by Spitz Channell and Richard Miller which involved, as I recall 
it, in January a speech by Elliott Abrams, a.thank-you by the 
President. You say you weren't involved in either the 
preparation for or participation in that particular event, is 
that correct? 

A. I don't recall any participation. 

0. Did you know at the time that that was going on? 

A. I don't remember whether I did or I didn't. I was 
fairly new on the job at that point. 

Q. Nov/, your immediate prior experience had a lot to do 
with preparing speeches for Elliott Abrams, is that correct? 

A. No, I never prepared speeches for him. I prepared 
speeches for the Secretary of State. 

0- You were then Elliott Abrams' special assistant for 
a while? 

A. Starting in November, and was still in January. 

Q. November '85, January '8 6? 

A. Yes. 



0. 



As special assistant, did you have any involvement 



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in speech-writing for him? 

A. I had actually made an agreement with him that I 
would write very fev; speeches for him, and I don't think I had 
written one by then. 

Q. By "then" you mean by January, late January of '86? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In March of 1986, there was a further event of some 
kind put together in which I believe Elliott Abrams gave a 
speech at. Were you involved at all in that activity? 

A. An event that Abrams gave a speech at? Could you be 
more specific. 

Q. All I can tell you is it was specifically with regard 
to Spitz Channell and Richard Miller. NEPL, National Endowment 
for the Preservation of Liberty, I think it's called. 

A. I don't recall that. 

Q. You don't recall that? 

A. No. I don't remember writing a speech. First of 
all, I don't think Elliott gave prepared texts when he would 
sort of go — when all he had to do was go and tell people that 
the policy was important and that kind of thing. 

The only speeches that I wrote for him were in a 
policy forum, like the Council on Foreign Relations or World 
Affairs Council or something like that. 

0. So whatever sense you had of Oliver North's ability 
to get in touch with people that had access to money, none of 



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it had to do with anything that took place in January or March 
in connection with Spitz Channell and Richard Miller? 

A. No. 

0. Okay. What happened after you mentioned it to 
North? 

A. Well, as I said, he said that I should get a hold of 
an account number f rom^^^^^^Hand a budget. I brought those 
to him and he said — well, I don't recall what he said, but 
my impression was he would try to do something. 

0- You say you brought him back a budget and an account 
number? 

A. Uh-hmm. 

Qi VJas this a written budget that had been prepared by 



A. Yes. 

Qi Showing the need for approximately $25,000 a month? 

A. Right. 

Q. And do you recall anything about the account number, 

what bank it was in? 

A. No. 

0. Do you recall whether it was a local bank, a Miami 
bank, a foreign bank? 

was^^^^^^^^^H account. 

Q. And your understanding was it was an UNO account? 

A. No. I spoke to^^^^^^lsome time in the spring. He 




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told tne it was his sister's account or something. It was 
actually not an UNO account. 

0. Spring of this year, you mean you talked to him about 
it? 

A. Yes . 

0. When you gave this to NOrth, did you personally hand 
it to him yourself? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In his office? 

A. Yes . 

0- Did he say anything further or add anything as to how 
he was going to go about trying to get a hold of this money? 

A. No. 

Q. Okay. What's the next event you can recall concerning 

this need for money by 

A. Well, time was passing and he would periodically, I 
mean maybe once every week or two, inform me that he hadn't 
been able — he didn't have any money. 

Q. North told you this? 

A. No, no,^^^^^H sorry. 

And then at some point he informed me that he had 
received some money. 

Q. Okay. Do you recall calling and talking to Craig Coy 

about this? 



i: 

i 



A. Yes. 



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SECRET 



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0. Had you talked to anybody else at the NSC besides 
North and Coy about this matter? 

A. I believe I also may have spoken to Fawn Hall about 
It. 

0. About that same time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You mean calling up to ask about what the status 

was? 

A. Yes. 

la When you talked to Craig Coy about it, did he know 
what you were talking about? 

A. I didn't get a sense from hin whether he did or 
didn" t. 

0. You didn't explain it to him? You didn't say, look. 
North told me, North said he would get some money for so and 
so to help him with their Washington office, and we haven't 
heard? 

A. I may have described it a little. I don't know hew 
much detail I described it in, but I may have described it a 
little bit. 

0. Let me ask it this way. Was there a feeling that 
you had to talk cryptically about this subject? 

A. No. 

Q. In other words, you didn't feel like, if you were 
talking to Craig Coy, you had to say, for example, well, there 

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UNCHSIIED 



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was something he was going to help vis with, some type of 
transaction? I mean, you didn't have to talk in those terms, 
did you? 

fl. I assumed that Craig Coy knew what this was about. 

0. When you talked to Fawn Hall, did she seem to know 
what you were talking about? 

A. Yes, I think so. 

Q. Okay. I'm going to show you a document here and I'll 
explain first of all v/hat it is. Both Craig Coy and Robert 
Earl — you know Robert Earl? 

A. Uh-hmm. 

0. Both Craig Coy and Robert Earl were on a 24 hour 
watch at the MSC starting October 31st, 1936, having to do with 
the impending release of a hostage. And they were at the :JSC 
around the clock, you know, manning the phones and keeping up 
v;ith it. 

And they kept a running chronology of events that 
were occurring. 

A. I'm sorry, what time period is this? 

0. October 31st, 1986. 

And on one of the pages of their chronology, and it's 
October 31, 1986, at 1605 — 

A. 4:00 o'clock. 

4:05, okay, there is the following note, which is in 
Robert Earl's handwriting. 



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(Document shown to witness.) 
CL Now, if we can assume that it's correct that the 
first thing I showed you is from Craig Coy on the 30th of 
October and then the next thing I showed you is the next day 
from Robert Earl, it would appear that there were back to back 
two telephone conversations, two days in a row. 
Do you recall that occurring? 
No. 

Do you recall, was there any sense of desperation by 
s time went by, that they absolutely needed this money? 
Well, I mean, he needed the money for a long time and 
he didn't have the money for a long time. So it was definitely 
a problem. I don't know if it was desperation. 

Q. Well, you had said it was about once a week, once 

every other week, you would check with him and he would say, 
no, the money hadn't come yet. 

A. Or he would volunteer to me. 

Q. But do you recall there ever being a time when it 

looked like it was more than just once a week or once every 
other week, that there was an actual desperate need for it as 
immediately? Do you recall anything like that? 

A. Well, I mean^^^^^^H as time went on became more and 
more concerned. I would say that. 

0. But you don't recall that right around the very end 
of October that this was coming to some kind of a head? 



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A. I don't know that you could ever say it was coming to 
a head. It was an ongoing problem. The longer it was ongoing, 
the more of a problem it was. 

Q. v;hat's the end of the story? what happens with these 
various calls to or f ron^^^^^^H and this need for money? 
Whatever happened? 

A. What happened is that I understand that he received 
some money. 

Q. Do you recall when? 

A. I don't specifically. 

Q. How did you find out? 

A. He told me, ^^^^^Htold me. 

Q. Did he say how much he got? 

A. I don't recall. 

Q. Did he say where he got it from? 

A. No. 

0. Did he say it was from North? 

A. No. 

Qi You didn't ask him? 

A. No. 

Q. Did you ever talk to North about the fact that 
had gotten the money? 

A. My sense is that I must have discussed it with him at 
some point. I don't have a specific recollection of the 



conversation. 



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Q. Okay. Let me approach it this way. Novenber 25th, 
North was — North's relationship with the NSC was terminated. 
Do you recall the last conversation you had with North before 
he was terminated? 

A. No. 

Q. Did you have any discussions with North right around 

that famous three, four, five days when everything was coming 
to a head, around November 2 5? 

fl. I don't recall any. 

Q. Certainly the day the contra diversion was revealed 
by the President and the Attorney General and it was announced 
that Poindexter had resigned and North had been terminated, I 
mean, that was obviously a pretty significant event that you 
can probably remember learning that news, right? 

A. Uh-hmjn. 

Q. Do you recall at that time thinking back as to when 
the last meeting or conversation you had had with North was? 

A. No. 

Q. Had it been within the last few days? 

A. I just don't recall. 

0. Did you talk with North after that day or during 
that day? 

A. No . 

0. So you have not talked to Oliver North since whenever 
it was you talked to him before the contra diversion 



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1 revelations? 

2 A. No. 

3 (Pause. ) 

4 MR. SMILJANICH: That's all I have. 

5 MR. SCfr»JEIT2ER: I have no questions. 
* THE WITNESS: I have no questions. 

MR. TRAYLOR: And I have no questions. 

° (Whereupon, at 2:32 p.m., the taking of the instant 



deposition ceased. 



S 9 

S 10 

i ,1 

5 12 

6 

% '"^ SIGNED AND SWORM TO before me this 

z 

I? 14 



Signature of the witness 



day of , 19! 



Notary Public 
My Commission expires: 



jMimEn 



773 



UNCLASSIFIED 



CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 
I, Mic±ial Ann Schafer, the officer before whan the foregoing 

deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the witness 
whose testimony appears in the foregoing deposition was 
duly sworn by mej that the testimony of said witness was 
taken by me to the best of my ability and thereafter reduced 
to typewriting under my direction; that said deposition 
is a true record of the testimony given by said witness; 
that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed 
by any of the parties to the action in which this 
deposition was taken, and further that I am not a relative 
or employee of any attorney or counsel employed by the 
parties thereto, nor financially or otherwise interested 
in the outcome of the action. 



"'Tf^MMn^lnki 



NOTARY PUBLIC 
My Commission expires February 28, 1990 



ONCUSffO 



774 



775 



UNCUSSIFIED 

^NCLASS/FIED 



HAHE HIR21.7000 ||11||,| UA.Mriril PAGE 1 

RPTS HAZUR 
DCHN DOHOCK 



DEPOSITION OF ROBERT U. KAG^N 

Friday, September M , 1987 

House of Representatives, 
Select Committee on Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran, 
Washing.ton, D.C. 

The select committee met, pursuant to call, at 9=00 a.m., 
in Room 2203, Rayburn House Office Building, Thomas Fryman 
[Staff Counsel to the House Select Committee] presiding. 

Present: On behalf of the House Select Corom.Lttee : Thomas 
Fryman, Staff Counsel; Kenneth R. Buck, Assistant minority 
Counsel; aatA Spencer Oliver, Associate Counsel} a/>\^ !> u i^ r 

On behalf of the Senate Select Committee: Henry J. Flynn 
a i >4- BuB > M e»M e n (t^ Investigator|^. 

On behalf of the Witness: William H. Schweitzer, Baker £ 
Mostetlex. Attorneys-at-Law. 

Also Present: Charles Malln, Notary. 



KIASSW 




■^//jt 



--^" 3 '-^9,^^ 



^ 



' provWofM o4 E.0. 12356 
/ hf !>. SMm, NaikMul Security Council 



(775) 



776 



UNCUSSIFIED 



NAME: HIR2>47000 VIIVLfflUlJII II II PAGE 



MR. FRYHAN: Hill you go ahead and su«ar tha 

wltnass? 

Whazeupon, 

A 

ROBERT W. KAGSK 
was called for as a witness and/ aitez having been duly 
suorn/ uas exanined and testified as follows: 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

KR. FRYMAN: off the zecord now. 

[Discussion off the record. ] 

HR. FRYHAN: OKay. The witness — this is off the 
zecord . 

[Discussion off the record.] 

MR. FRYMAN: On the record. Go ahead. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Mz . Kagen is appearing here 
voluntarily today, as he has done twice before with the 
Senate Select Comiittee and with the Special Prosecutor. He 
is not under any subpoena or any ze^uizenent to be heze . Ue 
are being as cooperative as we can. Spent a good deal of 
Hz. Kagen's time answering questions foz both the United 
States Senate investigatozs and lawyers, and for the Special 
Prosecutor, and we aze willing to do that today, within 
reason. 

I would request that since we have got four people 
here, that just one person ask questions at a time, and he 
will zespond truthfully, as he has done in the past. 



2)< 



■if<^ S^^y^cff 



mmm 



i4^ pravWon* of LO. 123M 
by D. SMio, NailoiMi Security Council 



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HIR247000 pjQj. 3 

MR. FRYMAN: Mr. Schweitzer, you are correct that 
Mr. Kagen has not been subpoenaed. I called you and 
requested that he agree to appear today, and you agreed that 
he would voluntarily appear without a subpoena. 

The way we will proceed today is that the initial 
questioning will be by Mr. Oliver. I may have some 
questions after that, and Mr. Buck or Mr. Flynn may have 
some questions iollowing that. 

It will be our procedure to have one lawyer 
questioning at a time, and we will make every effort not to 
have any interruption of questioning by one attorney by 
another, s« Mr. Oliver, if you will go ahead. 

MR. OLIVER: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Kagen. 
MR. SCHWEITZER: Excuse me. I don't have your--what 
is your position with-- 

MR. OLIVER: I am Associate Counsel to the Select 
Committee and Chief Counsel to the House Foreign Affairs 
Committee . 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you. 
EXAMINATION ON BEHALF OF THE HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 Mr. Kagen, we have discussed the IBC contract in the 
past. What I would like to do today is try to clarify some 
matters that have come up in the course of this 
investigation regarding that particular contract. I know 



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HIR2U7000 PAGE 4 

you have been deposed twice before, and I read those 
depositions, but they did not deal extensively with that 
particular matter, and that is one of the things that we 
would like to have cleared up for the record before the 
final report of this committee is issued. 

So, I want to ask you a feu questions about that. 
But first, let me ask you, when did you become associated 
with the Bureau of Intei-Amexican Affairs or ARA? 

A In November of 1985, when I went to work as Special 
Assistant to Secretary Abrams. 

2 Why did you leave Secretary Shultz's Office to go 
work for Kr . Abrams? 

A I had been there for getting on towards two years. 
I had written about all the speeches I thought I had in me 
to write, and wanted to get into a more functional area, as 
opposed to speech-uxiting . 

Q How did you happen to be offered this job by Mr. 
Abrams ? 

A Hell, we knew each other through various connections 
of friends and mostly coming out of New York, Irving 
OuyhtfcJii) Norman Podhoretz, P-o-d-h-o-r-e-t-z . I have done a 
lot of writing for Commentary and worked with the Public 
Interest and Elliott Abrams is Norman Podhoretz's son-in- 
law, and we worked together on a couple of speeches for the 
President while I was still in the speech writer's office. 



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HIR2147000 PAGE 5 

and when he was going over to become Assistant Secretary, we 
discussed the possibility of my going over to work for him. 

2 When did you first meet Otto Reich? 

A Some time after I had gone to work in ARA. I 
couldn't say precisely. 

2 Would you say September or November of 1985? 

A Sometime after November. I can't be precise; might 
have been December or January. I am not sure. 

2 But the Office of Latin American Public Diplomacy 
worked closely with ARA even at that time, isn't that 
correct? 

A Frbm where I was sitting as the Special Assistant, I 
didn't have much contact with the Office of Public 
Diplomacy, really. 

2 Who interfaced with the Office of Latin American 
Public Diplomacy in ARA? 

A I am not sure. 

2 Do you know whether anyone interfaced with the 
Office of Latin American Public Diplomacy? 

A I don't have a clear recollection of how the--how the 
mechanism worked. I wasn't really at the time that well 
informed about what the Office of Public Diplomacy did. 

Q When did you become aware of what the Office 
of--let's refer to it as LPD. When did you first become 
aware of what their role was as it related to ARA? 



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HIR247000 PAGE 6 

A Hell, when I was still Mr. Abzams* Special 
Assistant, I was going to some of the meetings that were 
held in Walt Raymond's office at the National Security 
Council, and I was there as Elliott's Special Assistant, and 
Otto Reich was there as the head of the Office of Public 
Diplomacy, so I was becoming familiar with their work 
through those meetings. 

HR. SCHWEITZER: Could we go off the record? 
HR. FRYMAH: Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 

ItR. OLIVER: Could we go back on the record? 
BY. MR. OLIVER: 
8 When did you first begin to attend these meetings in 
Walt Raymond's office? 

A I am not exactly sure. I would say maybe December 
or January. 

2 Of 1985? 

A January of '86. 

e January of '86. 

This was a regular weekly meeting dealing with 
Central Anarloan public diplomacy. 

A I am not sure it was weekly. I think it was more 
like every two weeks, and it was Latin American in general, 
but most of the time was devoted to Central America. 
8 Who chaired these meetings? 



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HIR2'47000 PAGE 7 

A I believe that technically Otto Reich chaired them, 
but they uexe held in Hr . Raymond's office. 

2 Who else attended the meetings? 

A Um--either Ray Burkhart and in that period 
occasionally, but not directly. Colonel Horth, one or two 
members of the CIA--uhat is her name--Kay Stevenson from 
Department of Defense, a couple of people from USlA--uhat is 
his name, John Scaif e . That was generally it. 

Q Did Jonathan Miller also attend those meetings? 

A No . 

2 Did John Blaken attend those meetings? 

A He 'might have been there on occasion. 

2 Uhen did you first meet Jonathan Miller? 

A It was — I would say it was probably closer to the 
summer of '86 before X actually net Jonathan Miller. 

2 Did you Know who he was in early 1986? 

A I don't know exactly when I knew who Jonathan Miller 
was, but at some point, I did become aware that he had 
worked at the Office of Public Diplomacy and was working at 
the Hhite House . 

2 What was he doing at the Hhite House? 

A You are asking me now what I know about what he was 
doing, or then what I knew-- 

2 Then. 

A I could never quite figure out what he was doing. 



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HIR2U7000 PAGE 8 

2 So, you didn't really interact with him in 1986? 

A No. 

e But you did with John BlaKen? 

A Hell, he was at the Office of Public Diplomacy when 
I uas there. 

Q And he attended these meetings that Otto Reich 
chaired? 

A I don't have a clear recollection of any meeting he 
uas at. but my perception is he uas probably at those 
meetings if Ambassador Reich wasn't available, or even uith 
Ambassador Reich. 

8 So; uhat did you talk about during those meetings? 

A Ue talked about — mostly it was — public diplomacy in 
the broad sense. There uas a lot of discussion about things 
that USXA uas putting out for Europe and Latin American 
distribution, publications that the Office of Public 
Diplomacy was uorking on, and I was — when I was Special 
Assistant, I didn't participate that much. 

I uas mostly there observing and--but occasionally, 
you knou, I uould just maybe let people knou uhere things 
were on the policy side, what the diplomatic situation uas 
in Central America, things like that. 

fi Here you also participating in the rig meetings at 
that time? 

A Yes. 



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HIR247000 PAGE 9 

S Has anybody else you said uas in the Walt Raymond 
meetings also participating in the rig meetings? 

A No. 

2 Uould it be fair to say that this public diplomacy 
group took its policy direction from the rig? 

A I wouldn't say that there uas--that that uas clearly 
the case at all. While I was there. I wasn't giving 
direction to anybody. People asked me what my perception of 
what was going on in Central America was based on, I 
suppose, what I knew from--being — knowing what Assistant 
Secretary Abrams was doing, and what I would oidEer--you know, 
what I have gleaned from the zis ■ 

But it uas not a question oi direction. 

Q Did you report on what consensus had been reached in 
the rig from time to time to this group? 

A Not that I can recall. 

£ Well, what was--other than just a bull session, what 
uas the purpose of this meeting? It seems to me there is a 
let of overlap between the people in this meeting and the 
people you interacted with in a lot of other levels. 

A I don't--! don't knou what the purpose of the meeting 
was. I knou that Malt Raymond took a lot of notes of things 
that people said they were going to do, you know, if 
somebody said contact this group and this political--you 
know, like the Liberal International in Europe, and let them 



784 



KAME: HIR247000 



PAGE 10 



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know that this pamphlet is available, and something like 
that. These acts would sort of be noted, and I presume they 
were carried out, but it always seemed to me that the group 
was really — they were a bunch of people doing things, and it 
was a matter of keeping everybody apprised of what was going 
on. 

It wasn't a policy-setting group. 

2 Uas it a group that was primarily concerned with the 
Congressional vote, aid to the resistance? 

A No. I — my sense was--tended to lean in the direction 
of — there seemed to be a lot of focus on public diplomacy 
that the USIA did in terms of opinion in Europe and opinion 
in Latin America, and there was, I am sure, some discussion 
of issues pertaining to opinion in the United States, too. 

But since it was an ongoing effort, you couldn't say 
that it was particularly keyed to any one vote. 

fi But was that one of the main topics? 

A I wouldn't say that was one of the main topics. 

2 But that was one of the main topics at the rig? 

A Well, we were always in a — pretty much always in a 
prei-vote situation, and that was the policy, was to try to 
win Congressional aid for the resistance, and that was 
certainly an issue that came up quite a bit. 

2 But, it didn't come up as one of the main topics in 
the other meeting? 



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HIR2147000 PAGE 11 

A It certainly did come up. I wouldn't say it uas the 
single most frequently discussed topic at the diplomacy 
meeting . 

2 Did you at those meetings discuss who was doing what 
to try to influence the Congressional vote at either the rig 
or that meeting? 

A Ue were having a lot of discussions--are we still in 
the period when I am Special Assistant? 

2 We are in the period when you started attending both 
the rig and the ii^s- meetings in Malt Raymond's office. 

A I am sorry, could you repeat the question? 

2 Uell, did you discuss who was doing what or what was 
being done to influence the Congressional vote on aid to the 
Nicaraguan resistance? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Which meeting? 
MR. OLIVER: At both meetings. 

THE WITNESS: I am sure that that was discussed, 
although I don't think it was discussed that much at the 
public diplomacy meeting. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Was — when it was discussed at the rig meeting, what 
did--what did they talk about in terms of what was going on 
in relation to the vote? 

A That is--you know, I could answer that question in 
four hours, but because we had a lot of--you know, there was 



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HIR247000 PAGE 12 

several votes, and ue were constantly in a pre-j-vote period, 
but I am sure that ue , you Know, analyzed where the votes 
were and what the issues that were of concern to the members 
Mho might be suing members or people who were 
potentially--could be persuaded to vote for the aid. 

There was a variety of issues that different members 
uere interested in, and there was discussion on how to try 
to win their votes . 

8 Did you ever hear the name Dan Kuykendall discussed 
in those meetings? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Either one? 

HR. OLIVER: Either one. When I refer to those 
meetings, I am talking about both meetings, because I think 
they took place almost contemporaneously, once or twice a 
ueek, or every-- 

THE WITNESS: But they were not essentially the same 
meeting or that they uere essentially covering the same 
topics, which is what we are going back and forth on for the 
last 1 5 minutes . 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 I am just trying to determine if Dan Kuykendall 's 
name came up in either meeting? 
A I don't recall that. 
8 Do you know Dan Kuykendall? 
A I have met him. 



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HIR2U7000 PAGE 13 

Q And how did you meet Dan Kuykendall, in what 
connection? 

A I once was at a meeting where I was introduced to 
hin. It was held in the Office of Penn l^^ble at PRODEnCA, 
P-R-0-D-E-n-C-A . That was the first time I met him, and I 
may have met him at another meeting. 

2 Has that meeting at PRODEnCA a strategy meeting on 
the Congressional vote o;^ aid to the resistance? 

A There was discussxon about--yeah, they were--those 
people were looking at what the Congressional situation was. 
yeah. 

2 Why were you there? 

A I was invited, and was basically asked to give ay 
assessment of where the policy was for the most part. 

2 Was Rich Miller there? 

A He may have been there at that meeting, yeah. I 
don't recall definitely, but he may have been. 

Q How many meetings did you attend at PRODEHCA? 

A I don't know. Over this whole period, I would say 
maybe two or three . 

2 Who else was at these meetings? 

A Well, it was Penn K3finble--I can recall one meeting 
whara San Kuykendall was there. I think there were a couple 
of staffers from the Hill, but I can't remember exactly who 
they were. I can't say for sure. Maybe Bruce Cameron was 



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HIR247000 PAGE 14 

at one of these meetings. 

X am not sure exactly. 
2 Who is Bruce Cameron? 

A Bruce Cameron is a--former Vietnam activist uho 
became concerned uith the Nicaraguan resistance cause, 
and--he has just been in and around the Nicaraguan resistance 
issue for the past couple of years. 

Q Has he lobbying on behalf of the resistance in terms 



of the Congressional vote i0m aid 



to the resistance? 



A That uas never my perception. 

2 Here you in regular contact uith Bruce Cameron? 

A Pretty regular, yeah. 

2 What was the basis of that contact? 

A It was usually discussing the internal situation of 
the resistance. 

2 Wasn't discussing the Congressional vote? 

A It uas discussing — yeah, discussing the Congressional 

vote, but uas usually seen through the lens of the internal 

organization of resistance. 

As you know, there was concern for reform within the 

resistance among some members, and these concerns were 

relayed, and Bruce had his own very strong feelings about 

Ihi fiiMi as did I. 
A 

2 Did you know that Bruce Cameron was being paid by 

Spitz Channell during this period of time? 



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HIR2M7000 PAGE 15 

A I think at some point, I came to know that--well, I 
did not knou it, but to believe that. 

2 Why? 

A I think that he told me at one time that he was 
being paid by Spitz Channell, but I didn't knou exactly to 
do uhat. 

S Are you familial with the Center for Democracy in 

the Americas? 

A I think that was Bruce Cameron's organization. 

i 
2 Did you knou that Penn Kimble uas also associated 

with that organization? 

A Well, his office uas on the same floor as the 
PRODEMCA's office, but I didn't knou uhat Penn IC]Kmble's 
association uas with that. 

Q Did you ever receive any correspondence from the 
Association of the Americas? 

A I don't recall anything, unless it was a flyer, but 
I don't recall anything. 

e Do you know Rob Owen? 

A Yes . 

2 When did you first meet Rob Ouen? 

A Some time in the late summer of '86. 

2 Did you knou that Rob Owen had been the former head 
of uhat became the Center for Democracy in the Americas, 
that — uhen he uas the head of it, uas called the Institute 



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HIR247000 PAGE 16 

for Democratic Education and Assistance? 

A I didn't know that. 

2 You did not know that he turned over his 
organization to Bruce Cameron and Penn K'^mble? 

A I didn't know that. 

8 Did you know Frank Gomez? 

A I came to know Frank Gomez--yes, I did know him 
actually . 

2 Uhen did you first meet him? 

A I think when I was working at USIA, when he was 
there as a TV person or — he had some relationship with the 
USIA . X had some contact with him. 

2 Did you work with him after you went to the Bureau 
of Inter-American Affairs? 

A Well/ he was--in the IBC contract. 

2 And you worked with him during that period of time? 

A Uhen I was in the Office of Public Diplomacy 
starting in April of '86. 

2 Prior to April of 1986, when you sat in the rijj 
meetings and you sat in meetings of public diplomacy in Malt 
Raymond's office, were you aware of the activities of Rich 
Miller and Frank Gomez on behalf of LPD? 

A No, not that I can recall. 

2 IBC's assistance to LPD was never discussed in these 
meetings, particularly the Halt Raymond meeting? 



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I o«K really recall learning that prior to the time 



HIR247000 PAGE 17 

A No , no . 

fi The materials that they were generating were never 
discussed as part of the public diplomacy activities of LPD? 

A I recall no such discussion. 

e When did you learn that Rich Miller and Frank Gomez 
were contractors to LPD? 

A 

that I was named as the head of the Office of Public 
Diplomacy, and was informed that one of the items on ray 
plate was a pending--was this contract. 

Q You did not know prior to that of their contractual 
relationship? 

A I don't think that I did. 

2 When this contract camu on your plate--what shape was 
it in? 

A What — could you be more specific? 

B You said when you took over this office, this 
contract was on your plate. Would you elaborate on that 
answer ? 

A Yeah. The contract had yet to be actually signed. 
I understood there were pending security clearances that 
needed to be pushed forward, but that IBC had already been 
doing work for the office by the time I got there. 

Q Who briefed you on the contract when you took over 
this responsibility? 



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HIR247000 PAGE 18 

A Well> I discussed it not at very great length with 
Ambassador Reich before he left for Venezuela. I am sure I 
discussed the matter with Tom Calhoun, who was--! don't know 
exactly what his title was--you probably know what his title 
was. Executive Assistant or — no, he was the Admin Officer, 
the Administration Officer at the time. 

Q Did you realize at that time that Rich Miller was 
the same Rich Killer sitting in the strategy meetings at 
PRODEMCA on the — 

A I don't recall whether I realized it or not. It is 
entirely likely I realized it. 

B So', you Know at that point that Rich Miller was 
involved at that time in the effort to win the vote on 
resistance to the--or for aid to the resistance? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: At what time you referring tc , Mr. 
Oliver, that he knew that? 

MR. OLIVER: Hell, he knew that when he saw him at 
the meeting at PRODEMCA. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: I don't understand your question. 
MR. OLIVER: My question is, at the time he took 
over responsibility for this contract, he knew that Rich 
Miller was involved in--in the effort to influence the 
Congressional vote on aid to the contras, because the 
meeting at PRODEMCA had taken place several months prior to 
that. 



I 

i 



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HIR247000 PAGE 19 

HR. SCHWEITZER: What is your question? 
MR. OLIVER: Hy question is, did you know at the 
time that this contract came under your area of 
responsibility, that it was the same Rich Miller who you had 
met during the strategy session? 

THE WITNESS: Yes, I already said that, but your 
next question is--I would have to say that just because Rich 
Miller was at a meeting doesn't necessarily imply the 
sweeping statement that you made. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 You had met him at a meeting that was primarily for 
the purpose of--of dealing with legislative strategy? 

A Yeah, but I didn't know who at that meeting was 
actually dealing with it. I mean-- 

2 How many people were at the meeting? 
A I don't know. Six or seven. 
MR. SCHWEITZER: Excuse me. 
[Discussion off the record. ] 
BY MR. OLIVER! 

2 There were six or seven people there. One was Dan 

J 

J - >-- - _£/ 
Kuykendall and one was Rich Miller and hUii Kxmble, 

■\ 

yourself--couple of staff guys from the Hill, whose names you 
can't remember. That is six. Is it your testimony you 
didn't understand what Rich Miller was doing at that 
meeting ? 



794 



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t»7S 
U76 
M77 
M78 
«»79 
t480 
((81 
i|82 
>483 
148(4 
(485 
(486 
(487 
488 
(489 
(490 
(491 
492 
(493 
49(4 
495 
496 
497 
498 



HIR247000 PAGE 20 

A I didn't knou what he planned to do after he left 

that meeting. 

2 Uas the discussion of that meeting primarily 

legislative strategy for aid to the Nicaraguan resistance- 



Yeah. I mean--you can characterize it that way. 

Bruce Cameron was there also? 

I don't recall whether or not he was definitely 



A 
2 
A 

there . 

2 These were all private organizations, all private 
individuals who were at this meeting with the exception of 
you; is that correct? 

A Except the Hill staffers that were there. 

2 But in terms of the Executive I^ranch of the 
Government, you were the only participant? 

A Yeah. 

2 When you took over the job of Coordinator of Latin 
American Public Diplomacy, did you begin to chair the 
meeting at the White House that Otto Reich had chaired 
previously? 

A I took over i&L his role. 

2 You took over as the chairman of that meeting? 

A I guess so, although I never considered myself the 
chairman of the meeting, but technically that is the way it 
worked . 

2 Did you set the agenda for the meeting? 



795 



KAME: 

499 
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523 



HIR2M7000 PAGE 21 

A Yeah, our office set the agenda for the meeting. 

e At that tine, did you discuss legislative strategy? 

A As I say — yeah, the issue of legislative strategy 
must have cone up. 

8 That would have been Kay of 1986, is that right? 

A Yeah, April-nay. 

a Vote occurred in June--important vote on aid to the 
Nicaraguan resistance. So you-- 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Excuse ne . Is that a question? 
MR. OLIVER: Yes; isn't that correct? 
THE WITNESS: Yes. 
BY'HR. OLIVER: 

Q So, that was one of the primary focuses of your 
office at that time when you took over this job; is that 
correct? 

A The office was continually, throughout the time that 
I was there, putting out information on issues pertaining to 
Central America and Latin America, and we did that then and 
ue have done it every month since then. 

S Did you ever sit in a meeting where they counted 
votes and talked about Members of Congress who were 
targeted? 

A In any meeting? 

2 Related to the Micaraguan aid vote? 

A But I mean, in any meeting anywhere? 



796 



NAME: 
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HIR247000 PAGE 22 

B Well, in meetings that related to your job. I am 
not talking about sitting around dinner with a bunch of 
friends. I mean in the Uhite House or State Department or 
PRODEMCA or Rich Miller's office. 

A Certainly, there were meetings within the 
Administration that were counting votes. 

2 Did you ever attend a meeting at Rich Miller's 
office where votes were counted? 

A Ho, not that I recall. 

2 Did you ever attend any meetings at Rich Miller's 
office? 

A I Went to a party at Rich Miller's office. I doft't 
recall ever being at a meeting, per se. I mean, a party 
could be called a meeting, but that was after a vote. 

2 Were you aware that meetings were taking place at 
Rich Miller's office that had to do with legislative 
strategy? 

A No, I wasn't. 

2 Bruce Cameron never indicated to you that such 
meetings took place? 

A Ho. 

S In the course of this regular contact you had with 
him when he was a lobbyist on this issue, he didn't discuss 
any of these strategy meetings with you? 

A Well, I--it is possible that he did. I just can't 



797 



HAHE! HIR2147000 PAGE 23 

5<49 recall any. 

550 MR. SCHHEITZER: Vou have answered the question. He 

55 1 has asked it three different ways. You have answered the 

552 question. 

553 BY HR. OLIVER: 

SSU e You indicated in 1986. there were some problems with 

555 security clearances for IBC. What were those problems? 

556 Could you discuss that with us a little bit? 

557 A I can't be too specific, because I never quitfi., 

558 understood exactly what they were, but they had to get--I 

559 gather a site clearance from some organization called DS, I 

560 think was Defense Department of some kind, and for reasons I 

56 1 never understood, it was never able to go ahead. 

562 I believe it was a site clearance. 

563 (Discussion off the record. I 

56M MR. OLIVER: for the record, Mr. Kagen, the reporter 

565 is--does not have a security clearance, so if we--if I ask you 

566 any questions that would cause a divulgence of classified 

567 information, would you please indicate? 

568 MR. SCHHEITZER: Neither do I. Mr. Oliver, so--I am 

569 damned if I know how you go about getting one, so I am in 

570 the same boat. 

571 THE HITNESS: Okay. 

572 MR. OLIVER: All right. 

573 BY MR. OLIVER: 



798 



NAHE: 
5714 
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576 
577 
578 
579 
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581 
582 
583 
58U 
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587 
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593 
59U 
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596 
597 
598 



HIR2M7000 PAGE 24 

2 Were you aware at the time that you took over this 
position in LPD that the Defense Investigative Service was 
having difficulty in contacting Mr. Miller and Mr. Gomez and 
getting the information that they needed to have in order to 
grant the security clearance? 

A I was aware that there was some problem getting the 
two sides together or--I mean, there was some problem in 
achieving closure on this issue. I didn't know exactly what 
the problem was. 

e I would like to enter as Kagen Exhibit 1 this 
document, which is a letter from Leo Beaumont, Chief of the 
Facilities ' Division of the Defense Investigative Service-. 
MR. SCHWEITZER: Are you going to make it part of 
the record, Mr. Oliver? 

MR. OLIVER: Yes. I ask the reporter to make it as 
Exhibit 1 . 

(Robert Kagen Exhibit No. 1 was marked for 
identification. ] 

MR. SCHWEITZER: You don't happen to have a copy for 
me, do you? 

MR. OLIVER: Yes. Hould you give a copy to the 
witness--or out of that packet, Burt? You can keep that 
copy . 

MR. FRYMAN: And look at it. This is off the 
record. 



799 



KAME: 
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621 
622 
623 



HIR247000 PAGE 25 

[Discussion off the record.] 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q That document uhich is dated June 3rd, 1986, appears 
to be--is a letter uhich indicates the difficulty that the 
Defense Investigative Service is having with Mr. Miller and 
Mr. Gomez. Did that letter come to your attention? 

MR. SCHUEITZER: One second. Let me just object to 
your characterization of the letter, Mr. Oliver. You may be 
correct, but the letter is here and it speaks for itself. 
If you want to ask about any information concerning the 
letter--he ' hasn' t signed it. You haven't even asked if he 
can identify it. 

MR. OLIVER: I believe I asked him a moment ago 
whether he had seen that letter. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: No, you haven't. 
MR. OLIVER: All right. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
e Mr. Kagen, have you ever seen that letter? 
A No. 

8 Here you aware of the subject matter that was 
discussed in that letter? 

A As I said, I was aware that there was difficulty in 
achieving--what was necessary to go ahead with the clearance, 
but I don't recall being specifically aware of what the 



800 



NAME : 
62M 
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626 
627 
628 
629 
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631 
632 
633 
63(4 
635 
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640 
6t(1 
6142 
6(43 
6>4(4 
6U5 
6146 
6147 
6148 



HIR21470O0 PAGE 26 

specific problem uas . 

8 You were the initial technical representative on 
that contract; is that correct? 

A Yeah/ I became that at that point, yeah. 

2 At the point yo"u took over the job of--the Director 
of LPD. 

A I gather that is probably technically correct, 
although I don't think I was named the COIR until I actually 
signed the contract, but probably that is technically 
correct, but if you want to check with the administrative 
people to find out whether or not that was true or not at 
that time-*- 

Q Well, did you become aware of the difficulties with 
the security clearance at that time? 

A At what time? 

2 When you took over the job? 

A Yes. 

2 Did you ask somebody what the difficulty was? 

A Yeah. I asked Tom Calhoun. 

2 And what did he tell you? 

A I don't remember specifically. I recall that 
meetings had not taken place that were supposed to have 
taken place, or documents hadn't been furnished that were 
supposed to be furnished, but I don't remember exactly what 
the reason was . 



801 



NAME: 
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650 
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652 
653 
6514 
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660 
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663 
66U 
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666 
667 
668 
669 
670 
671 
672 
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HIR2U7000 PAGE 27 

2 Did you do anything about it? 

A Yeah. I called up Rich Miller and told him to do 
uhatever was necessary to take care o£ the problem. 
2 And uhat did he say? 
A He said okay. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to enter on the record--ask 
the reporter to make this as Kagen Exhibit No. 2, a 
memorandum from Mr. Robe. t Dixon to Mr. Robert Kagen and to 
Truman E. Brown> drafted on June 13> 1986 and containing the 
date of 6-17-86, which we believe to be the date in which 
the memorandum was forwarded. I ask the reporter to mark 
the Exhibit, and to show it-- 

HR. SCHWEITZER: I uill object to Mr. Oliver's 
characterization of the document, that he is going to enter 
the document into the record. It speaks for itself. I 
don't know that it was drafted on the date that he says it 
was drafted. 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel, I will when you examine the 
document, you will see the date of the drafting appears on 
it. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: I don't know that, Mr. Oliver. 
Unless you can get the person here who drafted it, to tell 
us that-- 

MR. OLIVER: I am just trying to identify the 
document based on what is on the face of it. You may 



802 



HAKE: 
674 
675 
676 
(,11 
678 
679 
680 
681 
682 
683 
68X 
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688 
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690 
691 
692 
693 



HIR247000 PAGE 28 

object, but we ate simply trying to get the facts here. li 
you are going to object to the characterization of documents 
based on what is on the face of it, we are going to be here 
a long time . 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Mr. Oliver, I don't have any 
problem with you asking questions about documents, and 
indeed, we are here in order to give answers to questions 
specifically asked by you. I don't have any problem with 
your examining from documents, but I do have a problem with 
your characterization of the document that we haven't seen 
yet as to a certain date that it was drafted when the 
drafter of -the document obviously isn't here. 

HR. FRYHAN: Well, let me just comment that it is 
the general practice in our depositions for the attorney 

conducting the deposition, when he iwfiBW' an exhibit, to 

A 

State a brief description of the document for the record or 
for the transcript of the deposition, a description such as 
a date and the recipient of the document, or the author of 
the document, and I believe that is all that Mr. Oliver was 
trying to do at that point. 



803 



NAHE: 

694 
695 
696 
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71 1 
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HIR247000 PAGE 29 

RPTS CANTOR 
DCHN HILTON 
[ 10:00] 

MR. SCHWEITZER: I'm not trying to be contentious, 

Mr. Fryman, and I will go off the record. Maybe if ue go 

off the record ue can establish a policy so that we won't 
have ISie policj'^n the future. 



MR. OLIVER: Would you like to go off the record. 



counsel? 



MR. SCHWEITZER: Sure. 

MR. OLIVER: Ue will go off the record fox just' a 
moment . 

(Discussion off the record. ] 

MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

The reporter has marked the exhibit. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 Mr. Kagi^h, I would like to have you examine that 
document and tell me whether you have ever seen it before. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Have you read it? 

THE WITNESS: Yes. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
e Have you ever seen that document before? 
A I have . 
e Was that document sent to you on or about June 17, 



804 



NAME: 

719 
720 
721 
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723 
721* 
725 
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727 
728 
729 
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731 
732 
733 
73U 
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7U0 
741 
7 42 
743 



HIR247000 PAGE 30 

1986? 

A I recall seeing this document later. X don't 
recall seeing it at the time, but it's possible that I did 
see it at the time. 

2 But you were auare at some time in the early summer 
of 1986 o£ the problems that are discussed in this letter? 

A I was aware oi the problems but I'm not sure that I 
saw this then, but that is okay. I was aware of the 
problems . 

2 Hhy would you have not seen it at that time? 

A It's possible that I did. I'm saying that I don't 
recall seeing it at the time. Hhen I saw it later after a 
bunch of documents produced in the course of several 
investigations, I didn't recall having seen it at the time, 
but it's possible that I did. It's obviously addressed to 
me . 

2 Here you aware that the procurement division had 
indicated that in the absence of a contract, that no more 
services could continue to be performed by IBC? 

A I wasn't specifically aware of that, no. 

2 Did someone else in your office deal with the IBC 
contract besides you? 

A Hall, at this time Tom Calhoun was dealing with it. 

2 Tom Calhoun was an assistant to you? 



805 



NAME 
71414 
7145 
7M6 
747 
7148 
7«49 
750 
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767 
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HIR247000 PAGE 31 

A Yes. 

2 And he was responsible for the IBC contract? 
A KO/ he uas the one I was turning to to make this 
process move forward . 

2 Was he aware to your knowledge of the memorandum 
indicating that no more services should be performed without 
a contract? 

A I don't know. 

2 What are the responsibilities of the COTR on a 
government contract? 

A I would like to have the regulations specifically 
in front of me. I'm not an expert on contracting or on what 
it means to be a COTR. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: What is a COTR? 
THE WITNESS: Technical representative of the 
contracting office, I believe is what that stands for. 
MR. OLIVER: Off the record. 
(Discussion off the record. ] 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 On this particular document. Exhibit 2, is it your 
recollection that you became aware of these problems in the 
sunner of 1986? 
A Yes. 
2 Do you recall doing anything about resolving the 



806 



KANE: 

769 
770 

771 
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773 

^7^ 
lis 
lib 
111 

118 
779 
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784 
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786 
787 
788 
789 
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79 1 
792 
793 



HIR2(«7000 PAGE 32 

problems that are described in this particular memorandum? 

A Yes. 

2 What did you do? 

A X called Rich Hiller. 

Q And what did you say? 

A I said ''take care of whatever problems you are 
having with the DIS.'' 

fi Did you tell him that they could not continue to 
perform services? 

A I didn't. I don't recall that I told him that. 

8 Were you aware that the contracting office had 
indicated that they should not be performing services 
without a contract? 

A If X may, this document doesn't even say that. 
This document says ''please move ahead and take care of this 
problem, because otherwise there will be a problem.'' 

8 Let me, if X may, just read the last sentence in 
this document, which says: ''The procurement division 
cannot award a contract on this basis nor can the services 
continue to be performed in the absence of a contract.'' 

A Right, but the thrust, if I may, the thrust of the 
rest of this is there are lines in here like ''should this 
effort fail, please make an effort,'' that this memo does 
not say as of now there should be services performed. It 
says ''please make an effort to take care of this problem. 



807 



HAHE: 
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HIR247000 PAGE 33 

so that services can be performed.'' This is not a '"stop 
all services all of a sudden'' memo. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: You have answered the question. 
Let him ask questions to you. Bob. There is no question 
posed . . 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q The bottom line says in the final paragraph, in the 
last half of the sentence, ''Nor can the services continue 
to be performed in the absence of a contract.'' 

HR. SCHWEITZER: What is your question, Mr. Oliver? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
8 My question is, as the COTR on this contract at- 
this time, with the responsibilities for overseeing the work 
of the contractor, did you inform the contractor that he 
could not perform these services in the absence of a 
contract? 

A No. 

e But you knew that he was not supposed to be 
performing these services in the absence of a contract? 
A I didn't know that at all. 

2 Despite the fact that that is what is in this 
memorandum? 

A We can go over this again. This memorandum says 
''move ahead to get this thing taken care of, so that these 
people can go ahead with what they are supposed to be 



808 



HAKE: 
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am 

8>t2 
8t«3 



HIR2U7000 PAGE 34 

doing . * • 

a Hhat did Rich Hiller tell you he would do? 

A He told roe he would take care of the problem? 

Q And then what happened? 

A And then I think within a matter of two weeks, the 
problem was taken care of and they got their DIS clearance 
or they had their meeting that was required. Again, there 
are documents on that, t"0. 

2 How was the problem taken care of? 

A I don't know. 

2 You had nothing to do with taking care of the 
problem? 

A I was trying to make sure that these two groups 
could get together so they could solve the problem, and they 
did. 

2 The Defense Investigative Service? 

A That's right. 

2 And Rich Miller and Frank Gomez? 

A That's right. 

2 And you brought them together, or indicated that 
they should get together. Is the answer yes? 

A Hhat is the question? 

2 You facilitated bringing these people together or 
having them get together? 

A Yes. 



809 



NAME: 

suu 

8>45 
8U6 
8U7 
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sen 

865 
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HIR2M7000 PAGE 35 

2 To resolve this? 

A Yes. 

Q This pEOblem. Do you know a Mr. Robert Dixon? 

A No. 

2 Did you ever-- 

A Is he in the administrative office of the State 
Department? 

8 Yes. 

A Okay, I do know him I think. 

2 Did you ever discuss the IBC contract uith him? 

A No . 

2 nt . Dixon I believe is the person who sent you that 
memorandum in June of 1986 that we have just been 
discussing . 

MR. SCHWEITZER: What is your question? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Is that correct? 

A His name is mt the thing on the ''from'* line. 

2 And you never discussed the IBC contract uith him? 

A No, I don't recall discussing it with him. 

2 Did you ever discuss it with Barbara Garland? 

A No. I have never met Barbara Garland. 

2 rfho did you discuss it with in the Department of 
State besides Tom Calhoun? 

A Well, I discussed it with Elliott Abraras. I 



810 



NAME: 
869 
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872 
873 
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Zll 
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HIR2'47000 PAGE 36 

discussed it with Otto Reich when he was there, and at some 
point I discussed it with the legal advisers office as uell. 

8 When did you discuss it uith Elliott Abrams? 

A On several occasions I would say beginning in the 
early--well, soon after I arrived in the office. 

8 And what did you say to him and what did he say to 
you about this contract? 

A I said that we were in this situation where this 
contract was still pending. I didn't particularly like the 
contract, and wanted to consider not going ahead with it, 
but felt that the problem was that they had already been 
providing services and they had already basically been told 
that they ought to be providing services by the office 
before I got there, and so I felt that we were in a bind. 

8 How did you know they had been told to continue to 
provide service by the office before you got there? 

A Uell, Rich Miller certainly told me that, and I 
believe that Tom Calhoun told me that, and it was in fact 
the case that they had been providing services up until that 
time. I didn't need to be told. It was obviously the case. 

8 And what did Elliott Abrams tell you to do about 
it? 

A He told me to make my best call. 

8 Uhich was what? 

A Which was ultimately, after discussing it with 



I 



811 



NAME 
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HIR2'47000 PAGE 37 

someone in legal advisers office, to just try to go ahead 
and finish up the contract and then end it. 

e Who did you discuss this with in the legal advisers 
office ? 

A Mary Ennis. 

2 This is June of 1986? 

A I don't know exactly when it was. It was sometime 
in the late spring, early summer, I would guess, May-June. 

2 You indicated to her that you wanted this to go 
forward? 

A Ho, I indicated to her that I wasn't sure I wanted 
it to go forward, but my feeling was that we were already 
into it, and that we might as well go forward, and she 
agreed with that. 

2 After that June of 1986 series of meetings and 
phone calls regarding this contract, did you as the COTR 
begin to watch more closely what the performance of the 
contractor was? 

A The performance of the contract under my 
supervision was pretty much solely distribution of 
documents, and I had many people working with them on 
distributing documents, and they were doing so. 

2 How many people did you have working with you? 

A Well, people down on the fifth floor office were 
working with them every day. I don't know, two, three. 



812 



NAME: 

919 
920 
921 
922 
923 
92'* 
925 
926 
927 
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93>4 
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HIR2(t7000 PAGE 38 

four . 

2 What was the number of documents that they were 
distributing? 

A I don't have a figure off the top of my head. 

8 Mould it be several hundred? 

A Ko . It was more than that. In the thousands. 

S More than 5000? 

A More than 5000. 

2 More than 10,000? 

A Maybe more than 10,000. We can go on like this, 
but you are getting into an area now where I would like to 
have — the figures are already available. 

8 It was my understanding, based on previous 
examination of documents or testimony, as I recall, that the 
mailing list was less than 3000 names that was compiled by 
IBC for LPD. That is why I'm asking you the question as to 
what your recollection is in terms of the number of 
documents that were distributed. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Just one second. When you say 
from previous testimony that there was 3000, can you provide 
that to us? 

MR. OLIVER: I'gi saying it's from my recollection, 
and I was trying to get a general number from the witness as 
to what his understanding was. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: He has answered that. He said that 



813 



HIR247000 PAGE 39 

it's about 10,000 and nore than 5000/ about 10,000. 

THE WITNESS: Let's take one example. There have 
been some 50,000 copies of a booklet called ''Challenge to 
Democracy'' distributed and I'm sure they distributed the 
bulk of those. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

8 How uere these documents distributed? 

A They were put in envelopes and mailed to various 
different people, sometimes an organization wanted a hundred 
and they would be provided to that organization. If there 
was a speech going on, sometimes a speaker would want to 
bring 50 ot 100 with them. I mean there was a variety of 
w^ys, but mostly it was through the mail. 

Q Who paid for the printing of the documents? 

A Mostly the State Department; in some cases, the 
Defense Department also. 

8 Who paid the postage for mailing the documents? 

A The State Department. 

8 And who provided the envelopes? 

A State Department. 

8 What did IBC do? 

A They kept the mailing lists up to date, and stuffed 
envalopes and made sure that everything happened when it was 
supposed to happen. 

8 What did the people you had on the fifth floor 



814 



KAME: 
969 
970 
971 
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974 
975 
976 
977 
978 
979 
980 
981 
982 
983 
9814 
985 
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991 
992 
993 



HIR2U7000 PAGE 140 

working on the documents do? 

A Providing them with the documents and whatever 
other groups that we might want to send it to. I shouldn't 
go on too long on this, because I wasn't directly involved 
in the day-to-day activities. There were people working for 
me who were supervising that operation. 

e Was that Mr. Calhoun? 

A No. It was one of the deputies, at some point it 
was Mr. Blacken. Later on it was Can Fisk, Hr . Blacken. 

Q Mr. Blacken was working for you? 

A For a brief period. 

Q You inherited him from the Otto Reich regime? 

A Right. 

2 And he was your deputy? 

A Right, for a brief period. 

Q When you say a brief period, what do you mean? 

A Maybe a month or two months . 

8 Was he involved in the efforts to work out the 
security clearance with IBC and Defense Investigative 
Services? 

A I don't know. 

2 Was he the technical COTR provider to you on this 
contract? 

A I have since learned that that was the case. I 
didn't know at that time. 



815 



NAHE 

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995 

996 

997 

998 

999 

1000 

1001 

1002 

1003 

lOOU 

1005 

1006 

1007 

1008 

1009 

1010 

101 1 

1012 

1013 

10114 

1015 

1016 

1017 

1018 



HIR247000 PAGE 41 

fi If he was still there working with you and he was 
the COTR, why did you become the COIR? 

A I don't know. At some point he stopped working 
there and they had to name a new COTR. I'm just 
speculating . 

2 Are you familiar with the report of the Inspector 
General on the IBC contract? 

A Hot in all its specifics. It's a 70-something-page 
report, but I have read it. 

8 Did your write comments on it? 
A Yes. 

8 That were included in the record? 
A I don't know. Here they? I don't remember. 
MR. SCHWEITZER: is that the report? 
MR. OLIVER: Yes, it's the report. Can we go off 
the record for a minute? 

[Discussion off the record.] 
[ Recess . ] 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark this document as Kag]|n Exhibit No. 3. 

[The following document was marked as Kagan 
Deposition Exhibit 3 for identification: ] 

MR. OLIVER: This is a report from the Office of 
Inspector General dated July, 1987, audit report No. 7PP- 
008, titled ''Special Inquiry into the Department's 



NAME: 
1019 
1020 
1021 
1022 
1023 
102(4 
1025 
1026 
1027 
1028 
1029 
1030 
1031 
1032 
1033 
103U 
1035 
1036 
1037 
1038 
1039 
lOUO 
1041 
10U2 
1043 



816 



HIR2I47000 PAGE 42 

Contracts with International Business Communications and its 
Principals . * ' 



I 

I 



BY MR. OLIVER 



w 

Hr . Kagsn, have you seen this reporti 



Yes . 



Do you agree uith its findings? 

It has got a long list of findings, and I'm in no 
position to agree or disagree since they did a full 
investigation, the circumstances of which I'm not privy to. 
If you want to ask a specific question about a specific 
finding. I might be able to answer it. 

8 Let's look at Roman I, page 1, the executive 
summary. The bottom of that page is a list of findings. It 
says, ''The need for purchase orders and contracts was 
justifiable in the beginning, but was questionable in the 
later period as LPD's in-house staff grew and gained 
experience . ' ' 

Do you agree with that finding? 

A If I may, page 8, third full paragraph, ''When 
leadership of S-LPD changed in mid>1986, the new coordinator 
came to the same conclusion and decided to stop contracting 
with IBC at the end of the fiscal year 1986 contract and to 
perform the work in-house.'* 

8 nr . Kag'i^, isn't it the case when you became 
coordinator in mid 1986, that the contract had not yet been 



817 



NAME: 
10UU 
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1049 
1050 
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PAGE 43 



HIR247000 
signed? 

A That's right. 

2 Security clearance had not yet been granted? 
A That's right. 

e The memorandum which we examined earlier indicated 
that work should not be performed without the contract, is 
that correct? 

A The memorandum said please move ahead with the 
security clearance so that work can be performed, continue 
to be performed. 

S You could have stopped the contract at that point, 
is that correct? 

A I'm not sure that that is true. I don't know that, 
e The contract had not yet been signed? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: What is your question, Mr. Oliver? 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Is it true the contract had not yet been signed? 

A True. 

2 And the contract was not signed until September of 



1986? 



Correct. 

And you took over in May of 1986? 

Correct . 

And you were the technical COIR for this contract 



during that period of time from May of 1986 until September 



818 



HAKE: 
1069 
1070 
1071 
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1073 
10714 
1075 
1076 
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1091 



HIR2(47000 PAGE >4(4 

o£ 1986, is that correct? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: let me object. Hr . Oliver. This 
is the first tine in any o£ the testimony that ue have been 
involved in where I'm getting the impression that this is 
not a fact-finding inquiry, but that you are arguing with 
the witness in order to attempt to get an answer that is 
satisfactory to you. He has answered that question about 
six times, and you have been over this territory about six 
times . 

I thinK it is unfair for you to attempt to badger 
this witness. He is here to provide facts to this 
committee.. He is doing it voluntarily, and I think what you 
are attempting to do is to badger him and to get an answer 
that you want, and if it is not satisfactory to him, you ask 
the question again and again and again. 

How, I think that is not appropriate for this 
particular proceeding, and this isn't a public hearing. 
This is a deposition that you are taking in order to gather 
facts, and I will object to that and we will have to find 
whatever remedy we then have subsequent to that, but I'm 
going to object and I have the right, as you well know, to 
object and direct him not to answer a question if I think 
that's repetitive. 



i 



819 



NAME: 
1092 
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1096 
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1099 
1100 
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1 109 
1 1 10 
1111 

I 1 12 
1113 

nm 

II 15 
1116 



HIR2U7000 PAGE "45 

DCMH MILTON 

MR. OLIVER: Thank you. Counsel. Your objection is 
noted . 

I would just like to point out that I asked him a 
question about Roman numeral I on page 1 . He referred me to 
page 8. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Correct. 

MR. OLIVER: To a paragraph that said that the neu 
coordinator came to the same conclusion and decided to stop 
contracting with IBC at the end of 1986 contract. I uas' 
just trying to determine fox the record when he actually 
determined that they should stop contracting with IBC. and 
when he had the opportunity to do that, and I think the 
record shows that he had the opportunity to stop contracting 
with IBC earlier than the end of fiscal year 1986, and 
several months before the contract was signed, the contract 
for which he was the technical representative for the 
Department of State. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Mr. Oliver, your testimony is not 
interesting, I presume, not to the committee ^or to Mr. 
Ka9«n Aor me. You are welcome to make it on the record if 
you want to since you are paying for this transcript. 

Let me ask that question. Do we have a right to 



820 



NAME: HIR247000 PAGE 46 

1117 have a copy of the transcript to this deposition? 

1118 MR. FRYHAN: Under the rules that have been given 

1119 to you, Mr. Schueitzei, Mr. Kag-fpt has a right to revieu the 

1120 transcript and correct the transcript. Witnesses do not 

1121 have a right to keep a copy of the transcript. 

1122 MR. SCHWEITZER: Similar to the Senate then. That 

1123 was the situation in the Senate. 

11214 riR. FRYHAN: The rules are as I described. The 

1125 witness will have a right to review the transcript and 

1 1 26 correct it . 

1127 HR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you very much. Mr. Fryman. 

1128 What is the next question? 

1129 MR. OLIVER: I would like to enter into the record 

1130 at this point Kag>|^n Exhibit 4, and ask the reporter to mark 

1131 this document as Exhibit 4 and to give it to the witness. 

1132 I The following document was marked as Kag'^ 

1133 Deposition Exhibit 4 for identification:] 
1 134 BY MR. OLIVER: 

1135 e Mr. Kag'in, you asked earlier-- 

1136 MR. SCHWEITZER: Excuse me, Mr. Oliver. Would you 

1137 let him read it, please? 

1138 MR. OLIVER: off the record. 

1139 [Discussion off the record.] 

1140 MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

1141 BY MR. OLIVER: 



821 



NAHE: HIR2U7000 PAGE ^7 

1 mz 2 On the record, this is the Section G, entitled 

1143 ''Contract Administration'' from the IBC contract uhich uas 

11>4<4 periormed during fiscal year 1986 by IBC for uhich Mr. Kag^^n 

11 US uas the COTR for technical-- 

1146 MR. SCHWEITZER: Let me object to that. I don't 

1147 see anything from this piece of paper that is in front of me 

1148 that says that. It may, but uhat ue have is one sheet of 

1149 paper that says ''Section G, Contract Administration.'' It 

1150 is part of the IBC contract. Maybe ue ought to see the 

1151 uhole contract so that I can verify that that is uhere it is 

1152 coming from. 

1153 MX. OLIVER: Counsel, I uill be glad to produce the 

1154 uhole contract for you. Mr. Kag^n had earlier asked for the 

1155 cnTR section and ue produced that. I uas simply trying to 

1156 provide an economy of time in Xeroxing so that ue didn't 

1157 have to put the entire contract on the record, but at your 

1158 insistence ue uill do so. 

1159 Off the record. 

1160 . [Discussion off the record. ] 

1161 MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

1162 MR. SCHWEITZER: Rr . Oliver has shoun me a contract 

1163 or a document that is entitled ''U.S. Department of State, 

1164 Contracts Branch. Contract Ho. 1001-602066,'' and Kag|^n 

1165 Exhibit 4 appears to be a uord-f or-uord copy of page G-I of 

1166 the document I just referred to. 



822 



NAME: 
1 167 
1168 
1169 
1 170 
1171 
1 172 
1 173 
1 174 
1 175 
1 176 
1177 
1 178 
1 179 
1 180 
1 181 
1 182 
1 183 
1 184 
1 185 
1 186 
1187 
1 188 
1189 
1 190 
1 191 



HIR247000 



PAGE M8 



BY HR. OLIVER: 

ft Mr. Kagf^, do you recognize this document? 

A Yes. 

2 Were you aware of what your responsibilities uere 
as the COTR, which I believe you testified began in May or 
June of 1986? 

A I was generally aware, but I'm not sure I 
understand that I was CO"R until I actually saw the contract 
which had me down as COTR or shortly before that, so it 
might not have been until August or September. 

S Hho was the COTR during the performance of the 
contract? 

A I don't know. I presume that I was after John 
Blacken. 

2 Did you eventually certify to the proper department 
or division at the Department of State that the work had 
been performed under the contract? 

A Yes. 

2 Did you during the period of performance of the 
contract between May and September of 1986 provide technical 
liaison with the contractor? 

A I was in contact with the contractor. 

2 Did you inspect their work? 

A Their work was taking place in the State 
Department, and people who were working for me were working 



823 



NAME: HIR2M7000 PAGE 49 

1 192 with them. 

'193 e Were you carrying out the responsibilities for 

1194 oversight of the contractor during that period of time? 

1195 . A Over all, yes. 

1196 . S Did you certify in September-October of 1986 that 

1197 all the work had been performed according to the contract? 

1 198 A Yes. I did. 

1199 . 2 Did you discuss with John Blacken the work that had 

1200 been performed on the contract prior to your becoming the 

1201 COTR? 

1202 . A I don't particularly recall that I did. 

1203 2 How do you know that the work was performed between 

1204 October of 1985 and June of 1986? 

1205 . A Hell, we had the documentation of what their 

1206 expenditures were from them, and all the people who had been 

1207 working with thera„ I didn't hear from anybody that the work 

1208 hadn't been done. 

1209 fi But you certified that the work had been done? 

1210 . A That's right. 

1211 2 But nobody told you it had been done? 

1212 A I had no reason — 

1213 HR. SCHWEITZER: Objection. That is not what he 

1214 said. He said that from October until June, he had records 

1215 that he exanined. Hr . Oliver, you are not here to put words 

1216 in his mouth. You are here to elicit facts from him. 



824 



HAHE: 
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122t 
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121(0 
12U1 



HIR2U7000 PAGE 50 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel, the witness said that nobody 
told hire the work hadn't been done. My simple question was, 
did anybody tell him it had been done. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: And he answered that question. 

MR. OLIVER: And you objected ior some reason. 

MR. SCHHEITZER: You have asked and answered that 
question. If you would like to ask him one more time that 
question, go ahead. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 How did you determine, Mr. Kagi|n, that the work had 
been done between September or October 1st oi 1985 and June 
of 1985 wh*n you assumed the responsibility-- 

MR. SCHWEITZER: It has got to be June of '86. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
e June of '86, I'm sorry. How did you determine that 
the work had been performed in compliance with the contract 
during that period of time? 

A The overwhelming bulk of their work was 
distribution of documents at that time and under my 
supervision, when I was at the Office of Public Diplomacy. 
I had every reason to understand that those documents had 
indeed been delivered, that they had been performing those 
sazvices, bacause the documents did go out. 

2 How did you know that the documents had gone out 
between October 1st, 1985, and June of 1986? 



825 



NAME: 
12M2 
121(3 

12UU 
1245 
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1247 
1218 
12U9 
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HIR247000 PAGE 51 

A I didn't knou. I assumed that they had. 

2 So on the basis of your assumption, you certified 
that the uorK had been done? 

A And on the basis of the documentation of what they 
had in terms of their own validation, their oun 
documentation . 

Q On the basis of their documentation? 

A That's right. 

2 Provided by IBC to you at the conclusion of the 
contract? 

A That's right. 

2 were you aware that the Inspector General's office 
had been asked in 1986 to evaluate the proposal for the IBC 
contract? 

A Which Inspector General's office? 

2 Inspector General, Department of State. 

A There are two Inspector Generals' offices, but I 
understand that the proposal was reviewed by whatever 
relevant body there was at the State Department to do that. 

2 When did you understand that? 

A I'm not sure. Sometime after I took over as office 
director, as coordinator. 

2 Did this evaluation of the proposal take place in 
order to determine whether or not the proposal should be 
accepted? 



826 



HAKE: 
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HIR2U7000 PAGE 52 

A I don't Know. 

& Did you receive a copy of that Inspector General's 
audit in July of 1986? 

A Not that I recall. I may have. I don't recall it. 

Q Wouldn't it have been normal for you to receive a 
copy of that audit as the COTR on the contract? 

A I don't Know what would have been normal. 

2 You were the head of LPD at that point? 

A That's right. 

2 The contract was through L,T)V with the Department of 
State, is that correct? 

A Right. 

2 And you signed the contract? 

A Right. 

2 You certified that the work had been performed? 

A Right. 

2 But you do not remember, is it your testimony that 
you do not remember seeing the audit report by the Inspector 
General in the summer of 1986? 

A No, that is not my testimony. I may well have seen 
it. 

MR. OLIVER: I would like to ask the reporter to 
mark as Kag^n Exhibit 5 a document, the Inspector General, 
which contains report of an audit entitled, ''Evaluation of 
Price Proposal, International Business Communications, July, 



827 



NAME: 
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HIR2147000 PAGE 53 

1986,'' State Department number is A-86-6. I ask the 
reporter to mark the document and to pass it to the witness. 

[The iollowing document was marked as KAgiick 
Deposition Exhibit 5 for identification: ] 
BY HR. OLIVER: 
Q Mr. Kag^, have you seen this document before? 
A I don't recall actually ever seeing this document. 
2 Do you recall anyone telling you about the 
document? 

A No. It is possible that somebody did, but I don't 
recall . 

2 In reading this document, Mr. Kag^, does it appear 
to you that this is an evaluation of a proposal for a 
contract? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Your question is now, in reading 
the document before him. Have you had an opportunity to 
read the entire document? 
THE HITKESS: No. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: can we take the time then to have 
him do it? 

THE WITNESS: The subject line explains what this 
piece of paper is. 

ItR. SCHWEITZER: Sut you haven't reviewed the 
entire document. You haven't had a chance to do that. He 
has asked you whether it does. 



828 



NAME: 
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13(40 
13m 



HIR2U7000 PAGE 54 

MR. OLIVER: Could ue go off the record for a 
minute . 

[Discussion off the record. ] 

KR. OLIVER: BacK on the record. 

BY MR. 0LIVE;1: • 
S Have you had an opportunity to generally peruse 
this document, Mr. Ka9)j|[n? 

A I have generally perused this document. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Fifteen pages, if you believe the 
handwritten note at the bottom of the last page. I haven't 
counted the pages. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 This document was issued in July of 1986 by the 
program Inspector General of the Department of State. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Objection. It's dated July 25, 
1986. There has been no testimony at least today that it 
was issued on that date. 

MR. OLIVER: If you look at the cover page on page 
2, you will see ''Program Inspector General Report of Audit, 
July, 1986,'' Counsel. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Right, that is what it says. I 
agree with you. I don't know that it was issued. 

MR. OLIVER: I think we can only take documents 
based on what is on the face of them. If you don't believe 
what is on the face of these documents, there is really not 



829 



HAHE: HIR2147000 PAGE 55 

13M2 much I can do to satisfy you. 

13143 MR. SCHWEITZER: True, absolutely right. 

ISttU HR. OLIVER: That is becoming obvious. 

1345 BY HR. OLIVER: 

13146 Q Mr. Kag'^n, the reason I asked you questions about 

13<47 this document is that you were the technical representative 

13M8 ior contracts with IBC during this period of time, and I'm 

13>49 surprised and cannot undi>rstand why you did not know about 

1350 this report or did not receive this report at that time, but 

1351 is it your testimony that you uere not aware of this report 

1352 in July of 1986? 

1353 MR. SCHWEITZER: Objection. He has answered that 
13514 question already, Mr. Oliver, and your surprise is 

1355 immaterial to this inquiry. This is a fact deposition as I 

1356 keep trying to remind you, and I'm assuming that the 

1357 committee members and the staff are not going to be 

1358 concerned with your surprise in this. If you want to ask 

1359 him a fact question, another one that hasn't already been 

1360 asked and answered, that is why we are here. 

1361 BY HR. OLIVER: 

t 

1362 2 Hr . Kag)^n, I'm sorry, but X have sort of lost track 

1363 of where we were. With interruptions, they sometimes 

1364 interfere with the flow of my thought, and if I'm repeating 

1365 a question, I'm sorry. I'm just trying to elicit the facts. 

1366 HR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you. I accept that. 



830 



HAKE: 
1367 
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HIR247000 PAGE 56 

BY HR. OLIVER: 

2 Were you auaxe in July oi 1986 of this report by 
the program Inspector General regarding IBC? 

A I don't recall being auare oi this report. 

2 Did Rich Miller discuss this audit uith you? 

A Not that I recall. 

8 Mere you in regular contact with Rich Miller during 
the period of tine from May of 1986 until September of 1986 
that you were the technical representative for the 
performance of this contract? 

A Ue probably spoke a couple of times a month. 

8 Is it your testimony you do not recall him 
discussing this audit with you? 

A That's right. 

2 Did anyone else in your office to your knowledge 
receive a copy of this report in July of 1986? 

A I don't know. 

2 When did you first become aware of this Inspector 
General's report? 

A I don't recall ever seeing this report before this 
time . 

2 And this is the first time you were aware of this 
report? 

A Yes. I mean this is the first time I have seen 
this report. 



831 



HAHE: 
1392 
1393 
1394 
1395 
1396 
1397 
1398 
1399 
1400 

moi 

1402 
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1413 
1414 
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1416 



HIR247000 PAGE 57 

MR. SCHHEITZER: You have answered his question. 

Just answer his question. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

B Prior to your certifying that the work had been 

performed on the contract with IBC for which you were the 

COTR, did you review the file on IBC's contract? 

A Well, my executive assistant. Colonel Ron Lester 

went through a whole bunch of files prior to awarding the 

contract, and I went through some, but I don't recall. I 

wouldn't say I went through the whole file. 

Q Did Colonel Lester ever indicate to you that he was 

aware of this audit? 

A Not that I recall. 

C 
MR. OLIVER: J would like to enter as Kag^n Exhibit 

No. 6 the IBC contract that we have been discussing here 

today. 

[The following document was marked as Kag^n 

Deposition Exhibit 6 for identification: ] 

HR. SCHWEITZER: xt would have been easier to do 

that a few minutes ago. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Hr . Kagi^n, is this a copy of the IBC contract which 

you signed on September 2nd? 

A Just as a technical correction, I never signed the 

contract. The contracting office signed the contracts. 



832 



HAK£: 
1417 
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HIR2U7000 PAGE 58 

2 Is this a copy of the IBC contract for which you 
were COTR? 

A Yes> it appears to be. 

Q In fiscal year 1986. Off the record. 
[Discussion off the record.] 
MR. OLIVER: Back on the record. 

Let the record note that this is a copy of State 
Department contract 1001-602066. signed September 2, 1986, 
by Richard R. Miller and Barbara Garland. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Mr. Kag^n. you recognize this contract as the 
contract for which you were the COTR, is that correct? 

A Yes, I do. 

e Would you turn to the last two pages of this 
document, and you will see there a memorandum to you from 
Barbara Garland, who was the contracting officer, the 
subject of which is delegation of the contracting officer's 
technical representatives' responsibility and authority; is 
that correct? 

A Right. 

Q Have you seen them before? 

A Yes, X have. 

2 When did you first see that memorandum? 

A Sometime in September. 

2 If you will look at the next to the last paragraph 



833 



NAME: 
1(4l<2 
1443 
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HIR247000 PAGE 59 

on the second page of that memorandum, it says, and I quote 
from the document: '"Upon completion of the contractor's 
uork, an inspection shall be performed by the COTR, and any 
deviations from contract requirements such as shortages or 
deficiencies shall be brought to the attention of the 
contracting officer in writing.'* 

Did you perform such an inspection? 

A Yes. Vie went through all the documentation that ue 
had, and went through a process of making sure that what 
they charged was in accordance with what they had done. 

2 Did you perform such an inspection? 

A No. I had my executive assistant. Colonel Lester 
look into that. 

2 If you will read the last paragraph on that page, 
it says, and I quote: ''Delegation of authority is limited 
to the above referenced contract and is not subject to 
redelegation by you, and may be terminated at any time by 
written notice to you from the contracting officer.'' 

A I didn't delegate the authority. I kept the 
authority, but I had my executive assistant look over the 
papers for me and discuss it with me. That is different 
from delegating authority. 

2 But you did not conduct the inspection yourself? 

A I worked with Colonel Lester on inspecting this 
contract . 



834 



NAKE: 
1467 
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1469 
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1471 
1472 
1473 
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1475 
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1481 
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HIR247000 PAGE 60 

2 Did he inspect the peziormance o£ the contract? 

A Yes. 

B And did he tell you that the contract had been 
performed adequately? 

A Yes. 

S And it was on his recommendation that you certified 
that the contract had been performed and recommended that 
payment be made to IBC? 

A It was on the basis of what he went over and on my 
own recommendation. 

S Did Colonel Lester inform you at that time of the 
audit report of the program Inspector General that had taken 
place in July? 

A You have asked me whether Colonel Lester informed 
me of the audit at any time, and I don't recall that he did. 

2 You have indicated that he did inspect, you and he 
did inspect the file and inspect the performance of the 
contract, is that correct? 

A Yes. 

2 Is it your testimony that that inspection did not 
reveal the audit of the program Inspector General that was 
issued in July of 1986? 

A It's my testimony that I don't recall, that I have 
not seen this audit before and I don't recall being aware of 
it. 



835 



NAHE: 
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HIR247000 PAGE 61 

Q So that would mean you do not recall Colonel Lester 
ever informing you of this audit. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: He has answered the question. 
That is what he said. 

MR. OLIVER: I'm just trying to clarify. Counsel. 
He said that he did not recall ever seeing the audit. 
MR. SCHWEITZER: Correct. 

MR. OLIVER: I'm asking him whether or not he 
recalls whether Colonel Lester ever told him about it. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: He has answered that and he said 
no . 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q Is that your answer? 
A Yes. 
2 The answer is no. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: That is markedly different than 
whether or not it was part of the investigation that took 
place, Mr. Oliver. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
Q What I'm trying to determine, Mr. Kag^, is whether 
there was any oversight of the performance of this contract 
by you during the contracting period in accordance with the 
requirements of the COTR. Is it your testimony that you 
believe you performed the function of COTR adequately during 
that period of time? 



836 



I 



KANE: 
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HIR2M7000 PAGE 62 

A Yes. I just want to point out also that the 
Inspector General's report, which has been entered into the 
record, uent through the contract and what services were 
performed under it in rather great detail, did a full 
Inspector General's investigation of it. 

2 Hhich Inspector General's report are you talking 
about? He have two of them. 

A The one that is in your hands. Exhibit No. 3. 

Q And that Inspector General's report to which you 
are referring indicated, did it not, that there were many 
problems with that contract? 

A Yes, it did. 

e Here you aware at any time of the discussions that 
took place relative to the need for classification of the 
IBC contract within LPD? 

A Ho. 

e Did those discussions take place prior to your 
becoming the head of LPD? 

A The terms of the contract were all laid out prior 
to my coming to LPD. 

e Hera you aware of the Inspector General's finding 
that the contract should not have been classified? 

A Yes. 

2 By the Department of State? 

A Yes . 



837 



NAME: 
1S42 
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1514(4 
1545 
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HIR247000 PAGE 63 

2 Here you auare at the time oi the need for 
classification of this contract prior to your signing the 
contract or prior to your becoming the COTR contract in 
September of 1986? 

A No. 

2 Are you aware. Hr . Kag^^n, that the reason that the 
Inspector General found for classification of the contract 
was due in their opinion to the fact that they were trying 
to avoid the publics'bidding process for the contract? 

A I'm aware that that is what the Inspector General 
decided, in their opinion. 

2 Was the reason that you terminated the relationship 
with IBC at the end of fiscal year 1986 due to the fact that 
you could not award them another sole-source contract? 

A No. 

2 Uhy did you terminate the relationship with IBC at 
that time? 

A I thought the contract was a great deal of money 
for services that I felt could be done in-house. 

2 And did you inform Rich Miller of that? 

A I informed Rich Miller that I wouldn't be asking to 
continue with the contract. 

2 And what did he say? 

A He said fine. 

2 Here you aware during 1985 and 1986 of Rich 



838 



NAME: 
1567 
1568 
1569 
1570 
1571 
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1573 
157M 
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158U 
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1591 



HIR247000 PAGE 6M 

Miller's work uith Colonel Horth? 

A No. 

Q Uere you aware of Spitz Channell's work uith 
Colonel North? 

A No. 

8 Uere you aware of Bruce Cameron's work with Colonel 
North? 

A No. 

S Mere you aware of Penn Kimble's work with Colonel 
North? 

A I was aware that Bruce Cameron and Penn Kj^ble Knew 
Colonel Notth. I don't know what you mean by work. 

S I think it's fairly well on the record at this 

point that Rich Miller was working rather closely with 

Colonel North. 

C 
A You are asking me about Penn KJt^ble and Bruce 

Cameron. 

8 I thought I said you don't know what you meant by 
work . 

A In the case of Penn Kimble and Bruce Cameron. 

C Hhat was your understanding of Bruce Cameron's 
relationship with Colonel North, his work with Colonel 
North? 

A X have no particular understanding of it. 

8 Did you have any understanding of what Penn 



839 



MAKE: 

1592 
1593 
1591 
1595 
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1599 
1600 
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16014 
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1616 



HIR247000 PAGE 65 

KfMble's relationship or work uith Colonel North was? 

A Ko. 

2 Did you understand that their relationship with 
Colonel North was related to the Nicaraguan resistance? 

A I can't say what their relationship was based on, 
but it may have in part been based on having to do with 
Nicaraguan resistance. 

S Do you know Mr. Marty Artiano? 

A No. ( 

2 Do you know David Fischer? 

A No. 

2 Oaring the period oi time that you were special- 
assistant to Elliott Abrams, were you aware of a luncheon 
that Elliott Abrams attended with Spitz Channell, Rich 
Miller, Frank Gomez, Karty Artiano, David Fischer and Dan 
Conrad? 

A I don't recall being aware oi that, no. 

2 Here you aware that Kr . Abrams was asked to speak 
at a White House briefing on January 30, 1986? 

A I don't recall specifically. It is likely that I 
would have been aware that he was speaking at the White 
House . 

2 Were you aware that this speech was to a group of 
people who had made substantial contributions to support the 
President's policies in Central America? 



840 



NAME: HIRaUTOOO PAGE 66 

1617 A Ho. 

1618 Q Did nz . Abraras ever discuss with you aiter that 

1619 meeting what had occurred there? 

1620 A Ho. 

1621 Q Uere you aware oi something called the Central 

1622 American ireedom plan? 

1623 A Ho. 

1624 . 2 Central American freedom program, I'm sorry. 

1625 A Ho. 

1626 2 Did you Know that there was an effort by a group of 

1627 private organizations to influence the Congress on the vote 

1628 for assistance to the resistance in Hicaragua? 

1629 A Ho. 

1630 2 What did you think was the purpose of the meeting 

1631 you attended at PRODEHCA with Penn KXrable, Bruce Cameron, 

1632 Dan Kuykendall, Rich Miller and congressional aides? 

1633 A It was discussion of the pending vote. 
163'4 2 Was it a strategy meeting on the pending vote? 

1635 A You might characterize it as that, yes, maybe. 

1636 2 So you were aware that these people were involved 

1637 in that effort? 

1638 A In what effort? 

1639 2 The effort to influence the Congress on a pending 

1640 vote for aid to the Hicaraguan resistance? 
16U1 A I have to say I can't say specifically that I was 



841 



HIR2M7000 PAGE 67 

auare of what any given individual, most of whom I didn't 
know, were involved in. 

2 You knew Penn ]g(fflble quite well, is that correct? 

A I don't Know that I knew him quite well at the 



time . 



Uhen did you first meet Penn K;^mble? 



S 

A I would say — I don't know when I first met him. I 
nay have met him at functions over the years, but I didn't 
really get to know him until I went to work at Inter- 
American Affairs Bureau. 

Q Uhen you say over the years, how many years are you 
talking ab«ut? 

A I met him at a Committee for the Free World 
conference in 198>4 or in 1983, and I knew of his writing. 

2 Who invited you to that meeting? 
MR. SCHWEITZER: Which meeting? 

MR. OLIVER: The meeting that we are discussing at 
Penn ICImble's office at PRODEMCA. 

THE WITNESS: I think Penn may well have. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Why did you go? 

A I was curious to see what people thought about how 
the situation on the Hill was. 

2 And you were introduced to Dan Kuykendall at that 
meeting, is what you testified earlier, is that correct? 



842 



NAME: HIRaUTOOO 



PAGE 68 



1667 

1668 

1669 

1670 

1671 

1672 

1673 

1674 

1675 

1676 

1677 

1678 

1679 

1680 

1681 

1682 

1683 

168U 

1685 

1686 

1687 

1688 

1689 

1690 

1691 



A Yes. I don't want to be too confident on that, but 
I believe that is likely, possible. 

2 Did you see that Dan Kuykendall worked foi: Penn 
K^ble? 

A Ho. 

2 You knew he worked for another organization? 

A I didn't know who he worked for but I wasn't under 
the assumption that he worked for Penn K^ble. 

2 When you were introduced to him, what were you told 
was his role in this meeting? 

A I just knew that he was a former Congressman. 

2 What was Rich Miller's role at this meeting^ to your 
understanding? 

A I didn't know what his role was. 

2 You were during this period of time attending the 
RIG meetings, is that correct? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Let me object, Mr. Oliver. We 
have been over this twice now. We are going over it a third 
time. Yes, he attended the RIG meetings. 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel, I haven't finished my 
question yet. If you wish to object to my question when I 
finish, you have a right to do so. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: I apologize to you. I did 
interrupt you. I'm sorry. I will let you finish your 
question. 



I 



843 



NAME : 
1692 
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169S 
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HIR247000 PAGE 69 

BY HR. OLIVER: 
S You were attending the RIG meetings at this tine 
which dealt with congressional — what was happening on the 
congressional vote to some extent, is that correct? 

A That those meetings to some extent dealt with that 
issue? 

HR. SCHWEITZER: Hou I will object in that we have 
been over this I think a-t least once, maybe twice. 

HR. OLIVER: Very well, I will rephrase the 
question. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 

5 I'Will ask you once again, ii I may. Is it your 
testimony that you were not aware oi the efforts of these 
private groups to influence the vote on aid to the 
Hicaraguan resistance in the Congress? 

A I don't know what private groups you are referring 
to. 

6 I will name them. PRODENCA, were you aware of 
their efforts to influence the vote in the Congress? 

A I know that they were in favor of getting aid to 
the Kicaraguan resistance, but I do not know what 
specifically they were doing to bring that to fruition. 

8 ny question was whether or not you knew of the 
efforts of these private groups to influence the vote in the 
Congress ? 



844 



KAME: 
1717 
1718 
1719 
1720 
1721 
1722 
1723 
1724 
172S 
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HIR247000 PAGE 70 

A Right. 

C And you asked me which groups, so I will nane these 
groups and the question associated with each one is, did you 
know or were you aware oi their efiorts to influence the 
vote in the Congress? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: And he answered that as to 
PRODEKCA . What is the next one? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

S The Guli and Caribbean Foundation? 

A I don't know what the Gulf and Caribbean Foundation 
was . 

e The National Endownent for the Preservation of ■ 
Liberty? 

A I didn't know what that was. 

S The Center for Democracy in the Americas? 

A I don't know what the goal of the Center for 
Democracy in Americas was. 

e I would like to ask you about some individuals who 
were associated with these organizations. Bruce Cameron? 

A I to this day do not know what Bruce 's goal was. 

e Do you know what his job was? 

A No. 

e Penn iq4ble? 

A Penn K;^ble was the head of PRODEHCA. 

8 Hy question was, were you aware of whether or not 



J 



845 



NAME: 
1742 
1743 
171414 
1745 
1746 
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1748 
1749 
17S0 
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HIR247000 PAGE 71 

he was involved in attempting to influence the vote in the 
Congress on aid to the resistance? 

A I have answered that question. I know that he was 
in iavor of aid to the resistance, and I don't know what he 
was doing to carry out, to bring that to fruition. 

2 Were you aware of efforts by Rich Miller to 
influence the vote in the Congress in 1986 on aid to the 
resistance? 

A X was not. 

2 Were you aware of the television ads that were run 
in the Washington area by the National Endowment for the 
Preservation of Liberty or the American Conservative Trust 
or Sentinel related to the vote in the Congress on aid to 
the resistance in Nicaragua? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: What was the third one. Sentinel? 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 Sentinel. 

A I was aware of television ads. I don't think I 
know who was sponsoring them. 

2 Did you know who was sponsoring them? 

A No. 

S Did you attempt to find out? 

A No. 

2 Did you ask anybody who was sponsoring these ads? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Objection. He just answered that. 



846 



HAHE: HIR2t47000 PAGE 72 

1767 Did you attempt to find out? 

1768 HR. OLIVER: Counsel, the witness uas the director. 

1769 He was a special assistant to the assistant secretary of 

1770 State for Latin America. He was attending meetings in the 

1771 White House on. Office of Public Diplomacy. He was attending 

1772 the RIG meetings that involved discussions of the 

1773 congressional vote. He was attending strategy meetings at 
177<4 PRODEHCA. He was deeply involved in the Central American 

1775 policies of this administration, and what I'm trying to find 

1776 out is whether or not he was aware of what was going on in 

1777 the effort to influence the vote in the Congress. 

1778 MR. SCHWEITZER: Mr. Oliver, you certainly have a 

1779 right to do that and ask questions. When questions have 

1780 been asked and answered, I think it's a waste of our tine to 

1781 continue to ask the same thing, plus my view is that what 

1782 you are doing is you are badgering this witness at a fact 

1783 deposition where you are attempting — I presumed when we came 
178M up here that you were attempting to gain facts for your 

1785 reports. That is what Mr. Fryman told me. Now, you don't 

1786 like the answers that you are getting. 

1787 MR. OLIVER: i didn't say that. Counsel. That is 

1788 your characterization. 

1789 MR. SCHWEITZER: It's my characterization, but I 

1790 doubt that anyone who reads this transcript will have any 

1791 other view of that, and as a result of not liking the 



847 



MAKE: 
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1800 
1801 
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HIR247000 PAGE 73 

answers to the questions that you are getting, you are 
asking questions 18 different times, the same questions, and 
he is giving you the same answer. 

Now, at a fact deposition, we are not at a hearing 
today, as I said once before. Ue are here voluntarily to 
provide information to this committee truthfully, as he has 
done in the Senate and before the Special Prosecutor. This 
roan has been harried and harassed by all of you. He has 
attempted to do his job and you are continuing to do that. 
Let me rephrase that. I don't want for a second to have on 
the record that I think the Senate people did that. They 
did not, nor do I want to say that the Special Prosecutor 
did that, because he didn't. I felt that both of those 
proceedings he was asked in great detail fact questions, but 
they were fact questions. Today, for the first time, I 
believe that you are attempting to harass him, and I object 
to that. I think that is an improper use of this committee, 
and I think it's the wrong way to proceed. 

Z have tried to proceed as you would at a 
deposition, and that is a fact deposition where you are 
attempting to get information. You keep looking at the 
clock. You are the one that is taking all the time, not us, 
and Mr. Fryman and I have an agreement that at 12 o'clock or 
sometime shortly thereafter, we would continue, and at 12 
o'cl\>ck I would like to ask you where we are going, but 



848 



HAHE: HIR247000 



PAGE TH 



1817 
1818 
1819 



let's go back to asking hiit questions, and I uould request 
that you don't ask the same question over and over and over 
again because you are dissatisfied with the answer. 



849 



NAME: 

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HIR247000 PAGE 75 

RPTS THOMAS 
BeRROReEHSER 

MR. OLIVER: Counsel you have a right to object on 
whatever grounds you believe are proper. 

HR. SCHWEITZER: I appreciate that. 

MR. OLIVER: X am going to ask the questions in the 
ways that I believe will elicit the iacts that we are trying 
to ascertain here. If I repeat the question or rephrase the 
question, it is because I may not have asked it correctly. 
I am not concerned about what the answers are> it is just 
that we get the complete answers. 

One of the reasons that I have asked these 
questions several times is because Mr. Kagaffi was in a 
central position related to Central American policies at the 
time that all these things were occurring, and I am trying 
to determine what he knew and what his involvement was in 
these activities at this time. I will try to make the 
questions brief, and get on with this as fast as we can but 
I object to your characterization of whether or not I like 
or dislike the answers because that is not the purpose of 
this deposition. You could come to whatever conclusions you 
wish, but I can assure you that liking or disliking the 
answers has nothing to do with these questions. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: If a Committee member reads this. 



850 



NAn£: 
ISUS 
18M6 
I8I47 
ISUS 
18M9 
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HIR2U7000 



PAGE 76 



you have asked the same questions six times over and ii he 
can reach any other conclusion, I will'darned surprised. 
Let's continue. 

We are here for precisely the reason you stated, 
that is to elicit facts iron this man. He have done it as I 
have said on four occasions in the past, and I am sure you 
have--at least I am sure--not from the special prosecutor, 
from the Senate that tes-imony available. I thought, as you 
rightly stated at the beginning of the deposition, the 
Senate investigator did not go into the IBC contract in 
detail. I felt that was an appropriate inquiry here because 
they did not, and if ue are going over the RIG meetings ,- and 
the Office of Public Diplomacy which they went into and llr . 
Smiljanich went into it in great detail, or any of the other 
areas, I think it is a waste of our time, and it sure as 
hell is a waste of our time. 

By MR. OLIVER: 
Q Kr . Ka^4^. in your position as special assistant to 
to Assistant Secretary Regan or Director of the Office of 
Public Diplomacy-- 

HR. SCHWEITZER: Assistant Secretary? 

HR. OLIVER: Abrams . 

HR. SCHWEITZER: You said Regan. 

HR. OLVIER: Sorry. 

BY HR. OLIVER: 



I 



851 



NAME: 
1870 
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HIR247000 PAGE 77 

2 I meant Abrans. What was your involvement in the 
legislative activities on behalf of the Administration to 
secure assistance to the Hicaraguan resistance? 

A X was an adviser to Assistant Secretary Abrams and 
tried to provide him uith information on what I took the 
Congressional situation to be. 

2 And how did you obtain that information? 

A By talking to staff, by talking to people who know 
what the Congressmen were thinking, by reading the 
newspapers, by judging, by going over past votes. 

2 Did you participate in strategy sessions related to 
this vote within the Department of State? 

A Sure. 

2 Did you meet with the legislative officers of the 
Department of State? 

A Occasionally. 

2 It is your testimony that during this time that you 
were giving advice to the Assistant Secretary on the 
legislative situation, that you were not aware of the 
efforts of these private groups to influence that vote? 
HR. SCHWEITZER: i will object. That has been 
asked and answered a number of times. 

THE WITNESS: I would say thai is correct. 
MR. OLIVER: Thank you, Hr . Kag*n. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 



852 



KAn£ = 
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HIR2'47000 PAGE 78 

8 Aie you awate of any involvement oi Colonel North 
in the legislative effort on behalf of the Administration? 

A Am I now aware? 

Q Were you aware at the time? 

A When I was Special Assistant? 

e Talking about the period of 1986, in the period 
prior to the votes which occurred in, I believe, April and 
June . 

A Colonel North certainly concerned himself with the 
legislative issues. 

2 How did he concern himself? 

A He participated in meetings where legislative 
issues arose . 

e That would be the RIG? 

A The RIG, sure. 

2 And the meetings which took place in what? 

A Not really there, mostly in the RIG. 

e Here you aware of his participation in any meetings 
outside of the RIG in Congressional strategy? 

A I wasn't aware of any meetings that were taking 
place that I wasn't a part of. 

C Here you aware of IBC's relationship with Spitz 
Channell during the time that you were the COTR for the 
contract with IBC? 

A No. 



853 



NAME: 
1920 
1921 
1922 
1923 
192M 
1925 
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19314 
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1938 
1939 
19U0 
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19^2 
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HIR2U7000 PAGE 79 

fi When did you become auare of IBC's relationship 
with Spitz Channall. 

A I would say sometime after this was all disclosed 
to the public. 

2 In your earlier testimony you discussed with Hr . 
Smiljanich and Hr . Traylor your involvement in the effort to 
obtain funds in relationship > \or^lauyer , in relationship to 
the Hasenfus incident? 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Are you asking uhen he testified? 
You have got the transcript right there. If you want to ask 
him a questions, why don't you show him the transcript? I 
ask that y6u show him the transcript. 

MR. OLIVER: Let me rephrase the question. 
HR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 

2 What was your involvement in attempting to obtain 
assistance for Mr. Hasenfus after he was captured by the 
Sandinistas in Kicarargua? 

A I had no involvement. 

e Were you aware that Mr. Abrams called Colonel Korth 
seeking his assistance in providing funds for the return of 
the bodies of Hr . Sawyer and Mr. Cooper to the United States 
after they were killed in the plane crash in Nicaragua? 

A I wasn't aware at the time. 

2 Did you know that the money which was provided for 



854 



NAME: HIR2tt7000 PAGE 80 

19US that purpose came from Rich Miller? 
19(46 A No. 

19t47 Q So you were not aware oJE any funds provided by or 

19M8 through IBC to the resistance or to the private groups that 

19M9 were attempting to influence the vote or to provide 

1950 assistance for the return of the bodies killed in the 

1951 Hasenfus plane crash? 

1952 HR. SCHWEITZER: That is a lengthy question plus 

1953 you are assuming a fact not in evidence. Your question, so 
195>4 you were not aware, are you asking him was he aware of, then 

1955 these lengthy pieces of those questions. 

1956 BY MR. OLIVER: 

1957 S Here you aware that Richard Miller and IBC were 

1958 providing funds to the resistance in Nicaragua? 

1959 A No. 

1960 Q Here you aware that Richard Miller and IBC were 

1961 providing funds to Colonel North, or through Colonel North. 

1962 or at Colonel North's direction, directed to provide 

1963 assistance to the Nicaraguan resistance? 
196(4 A No. 

1965 e Hera you aware that Richard Miller and IBC were 

1966 involved in arranging a meeting at the White House, for 

1967 oontributozs to Spitz Channell's operations? 
19 68 A No. 
1969 C I would like to have a five-minute break and confer 



855 



KAME: HIR2M7000 PAGE 81 

1970 with Mr. Fryman, if I may. 

1971 (Short recess) 

1972 MR. SCHWEITZER: It is 11=40 right now. 

1973 MR. OLIVER: We will try to finish by 12=00 

1974 o'clock. 

1975 MR. SCHHEITZER: Good. 

1976 BY MR. OLIVER: 

1977 2 Mr. Kaga(n have you discussed your testimony before 

1978 this committee, your depositions before this committee with 

1979 anyone other than your lawyer? 

1980 A Sure. 

1981 2 Who have you discussed it with? 

1982 A My wife, my parents, some friends, occasionally, 

1983 with people in the Department. 

1984 2 Other than your wife and your family, who have you 

1985 discussed your testimony with in the Department of State, 

1986 or — 

1987 MR. SCHWEITZER: I a» going to let him answer the 

1988 question because his answer is an innocent one, but I am 

1989 going to object because there are a lot of implications that 

1990 run from that. It is not a question that — strike that. I 

1991 object because there are a lot of implications that run, 

1992 that go from the question, but go ahead and answer that. 

1993 THE WITNESS: I would say with members of the 

1994 Department I haven't really discussed substance, I have 



856 



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HIR247000 PAGE 82 

mostly discussed the facts or the tone or, generally, what 
they have been like with a number of people — Bill Walker, 
Danny Uatinburg, others in the office. I haven't discussed 
substance with Mr. Abrams, but I have discussed the fact of 
testimony with him. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: Let me say also, if there is an 
implication here from this question, that there is any kind 
of subornation of perjury or manufacturing of testimony, I 
strongly object to that, Mr. Oliver. 

MR. OLIVER: There is no such implication, counsel. 
MR. SCHWEITZER: Thank you. 
BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 Have you discussed your testimony here with Richard 
Miller? 
A 
Q 
A 
Q 
A 

e 



No. 

Have you discussed it with Frank Gomez? 

Ko. 

Have you discussed it with Penn Itimbull? 



Only the fact of the testimony, not the substance. 
When you say the fact of the testimony, you mean 
the fact that you have testified but not what you have 
testified to? 

A Right. 

S Have you discussed anyone else's testimony with 
anyone other than your lawyer and what — when I say that, I 



857 



KAKE: 
2020 
2021 
2022 
2023 
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2025 
2026 
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HIR247000 PAGE 83 

nean I am referring to anybody whose name has been mentioned 
here today in connection with this deposition. 

HR. SCHWEITZER: Do you mean have you discussed 
their testimony? 

MR. OLIVER: That is correct. 

HR. SCHWEITZER: With them? 

MR. OLIVER: That is correct. 

MR. SCHWEITZER: other than discussing their 
testimony with me? 

THE WITNESS: People who have been named in the 
course of our conversations today, I don't think so. 

BY MR. OLIVER: 
2 Other than Mr. Abrams and Mr. Walker, who else in 
the Department of State have you discussed the substance of 
your testimony with? 



I discussed it briefly with Otto 



but it was 



mostly--we were discussing the questions that Congressman 
Fascell was asking, but that related to, came out up a 
little about with Ambassador WmIbIiI . 

Q When did you discuss this with Ambassador -W l lllfllt^ 

V 

A When was Congressman Fascell asking his questions. 
You ought to know that. 

2 It was May and August of this year. 

A No. He was asking specific questions of Bud 
McFarlane and others. I don't know, maybe a month ago. 



858 



NAME: HIR2t(7000 PAGE 8^ 

2015 maybe a month and a half ago. 

20(46 Q You discussed it when he was here in Washington? 

20U7 A That is right. 

20U8 2 And you discussed his testimony, the substance of 

2049 his testimony, at that time? 

2050 A Not at any great length. He said they were asking 

2051 him something, he was saying, he didn't know uhat they were 

2052 talking about, it was very briefly. 

2053 Q Did you discuss the IBC matter uith Ambassador 
20SM lip if hi during these conversations? 

2055 A No. 

2056 2 Did you ever discuss your testimony uith John 

2057 Blacken? 

2058 A No, John Blacken has been in Guinea-Bissau for the 

2059 last — 

2060 NR. SCHWEITZER: The answer is no. 

2061 BY HR. OLIVER: 

2062 2 Did you discuss your testimony with anyone in the 

2063 White House? 
206i« A No. 

2065 2 I have no further questions at this time. I 

2066 balleve Hr . Buck has some questions, and nr . Fryman may have 

2067 some questions. 

2068 HR. FRYMAN: I have no questions, Mr. Buck? 

2069 HR. BUCK: i have a few short questions. 



859 



Hknt- 

2070 
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HIR2'47000 PAGE 85 

BY MR. BUCK: 
Q I am wondering, are you aware of any human rights 
abuses by the Sandinista government? 

A I am aware oi many, many, many^ human rights abuses 
by the Sandinista government. 

Q Can you list a few that just come to mind, maybe a 
few of the more egregious ones. 

A The most egregious ones in the last feu months have 
been the massive relocation of Hicaraguan campasinos from 
the Uevaguine area, as well as the systematic bombing of the 
population in order to depopulate the areas so to make it a 
free-fire zone. 

Q Thank you, X have no further questions. Flynn? 
MR. FLYHK: No. Thank you very much for your 
testimony . 

MR. OLIVER: Thank you very much. I have no 
further questions. Let the record note that we have 
finished before 12:00 o'clock and we appreciate your 
cooperation. 
[At 11:50 a.m. the deposition was adjourned.] 



861 



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1-2 



DEPOSITION OF 
ALTON G. KEEL 



g Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with 



Iran, 

U.S. House of Representatives, 

- Washington, D.C. 
o 



Wednesday, March 18, 1987 



The deposition convened at 9:35 a.m. in Room B-352 
Rayburn House Office Building. 

Present: W. NeilEggleston, Deputy Chief Counsel', House 
Select Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions 
with Iran; George Van Cleve, Chief Minority Counsel, Select 
Committee to Investigate Covert Arms Transactions with 
Iran. 



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(9:35 a.m.) 

MR. EGGLESTON: Thank you. Dr. Keel. Do I say 
"y.T. Ambassador"? 

THE WITNESS: "Al" will do, actually. 

MR. EGGLESTON: Thank you for coming today. 

For the record, I am Neil Eggleston, Deputy 
Chief Counsel of the House Select Committee to Investigate 
Covert Arms Transactions with Iran. Also present is 
George Ven Cleve, Chief Minority Counsel. 
Whereupon, 

ALTON G. KEEL 
was called as a witness and, having been duly sworn, was 
examined and testified as follows: 

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE SELECT COMMITTEE 

BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Dr. Keel, I know you are leaving shortly. I will 
go through this as quickly as I possibly can. I would like 
to tell you where I and Mr. Van Cleve would like to go. 

We would like a little bit about your background. 
We would like to focus mostly on the events of November 
of 198 6 and probably go back and ask you questions about 
the period September and October. 

If you could just as briefly as you can describe 
your education and professional background up to September 
of 1986, that would be helpful. 



UJiMiU 



(863) 



864 



23 



ONSfil^FtErr 



A Certainly. I will try to be both brief and 
modest. 

I have a doctorate in engineering and did begin 
my career doing research with the Department of the Navy 



5 e 

on weapons systems. Ultima y.y, joined the Senate Armed 



Services Committee about 1976, 1977 as a professional 
staff member and worked on the professional staff until 
about 1981 when I was appointed as Assistant Secretary of 
the Air Force for Research and Development. 

I had that position until 1982 when I was 
appointed as Associate Director of 0MB for International 
Affairs and National Security, maintained that position 
until February of 1986 when I was asked to be the 
Executive Director of the Shuttle Commission and served 
there throughout the Challenger investigation until 
August of 1986. 

Then I was asked in September to join NSC on a 
temporary basis when the Deputy Director there was gravely 
ill and agreed to come in on a temporary basis in September, 
and actually came on board in September with the agreement 

21 I would work until after the election or thereabouts or 

22 January, and would have the ability to gracefully go on and 
do other things. 

24 Q Do you recall what day it was you actually started 

25 on the job at ti 

iiNriAV\ii-ii-ii 




865 



HNtASStfeT 



A It was the first Monday of September which, 
I believe, was like September 2. 

Q You are no longer now with the NSC, I take it. 
Is that correct? 

A No, I am not. 

I just recently — I was — the President 
announced his intent to nominate me as Ambassador to NATO 
in about mid-December. I was nominated and confirmed by 
the Senate last Wednesday, was sworn in Friday, and am now 
embarking today to take up those duties. 

Q Congratulations on that. 

A Thank you. 

Q When is it that you actually left the NSC? 

A January 2 — January 2 or January 3. 

Q Actually, I see from my calendar the first 
Monday in September was the 1st? For whatever — 

A Was that Labor Day, though? Maybe it was — 

Q Might have been Labor Day. 

A The first working day. I think it was the 
second. It was probably a Tuesday. 

Q When you first started at the NSC, you were 
Acting Deputy Director? 

A Acting Deputy National Security Advisor. 

Q And did you remain in the acting capacity 
throughout the time that you were there? 



uMcussra. 



866 



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A No. 

Once -- regrettably, once Mr. Fortier passed 
away, then they made me the -- officially the Deputy 
National Security Advisor, after he deceased. 

Q I take it on or about November 25 of 1986, did 
you become acting National Security Advisor? 

A Yes, I did. 

It was announced by Attorney General Meese that 
Admiral Poindexter had resigned, then, ironically, I learned 
through that same press conference, media, that I was now 
acting. 

Q Let me — as I said -- focus our attention 
so we can do this quickly on the time period of November 
1986 — at that time, November 2nd or so through 
November 2 5th of 1986. 

First, just to give you dates that are fairly 
well set, I think you will recall the hostage was released 
on or about November 2nd and I think that was Jacobsen. 

On November 3rd, that was the day the story 
leaked in the Beirut press about Mr. McFarlane's trip. 
Did you know Mr. McFarlane prior to the time that you were 
at the NSC? 

A Yes, I did. 

As a matter of fact, he and I both were at the — 
on the Senate Armed Services Committee at the same time. 



nfinibAwifttIrr 



867 



mmm 



Q Did you know Admiral Poindexter prior to that 

time? 

A I met Admiral Poindexter when I was at 0MB as 
Associate Director. I knew him during the period I was at 
0MB. 

Q Had you known Colonel North? 

A Yes. I met him also during the period I was 
at 0MB as Associate Director. 

Q Prior to this time, had you ever met Mr. 
Secord? 

A No. To my knowledge, I have never met him, 
although I was Assistant Secretary of the Air Force. There 
could have been some occasion, but certainly to my 
knowledge, I have not met him and don't know his activities. 

Q After the story was released in the Beirut 
press on or about November 3 of 1986, was there a — were 
there conversations among you and Admiral Poindexter about 
how to react to the story? 

A Well, there were obviously a number of 
conversations once the story started coming out. In fact, 
I was learning as the story was unfolding about events 
I didn't know about. There were discussions in terms of 
what we could say publicly, because it was being — the 
initiative had been treated, obviously, as a covert action. 
So, there was a concern about safeguarding various 



UUCUlS&lfia 



868 



1 

2 

3 

4 

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mmm 



aspects of the initative because of concern over the 
hostages and regarding third — regarding intermediaries 
who were involved. 

Q Right. 

A So, there was discussion, yes, as to how to react, 
what we could say, and when we could say it, in effect. 

Q I understand there was a ireeting on or about 
November 10th with various individuals that you attended, 
a meeting with the President, the Vice-President, 
Mr. Shultz, Mr. Weinberger, Mr. Regan, Mr. Casey, Mr. Meese, 
Mr. Poindexter, and yourself. 

Prior to that time, this November 10th meeting, 
had there been -- had the efforts to produce a chronology 
already begun? 

A Not to my knowledge. 

The chronology effort actually didn't begin until 
later on in preparation of telling — the intent was to 
tell the full story to the Intelligence Committee — again, 
^9 during this whole period it was still looked at as a covert 

20 action, so there was a concern about safeguarding some 

21 aspects because of the reasons I have already mentioned. 

22 But the intent was to tell the intelligence 

23 committees all the details. So, the concerted effort 

24 to put the chronology together, hence the detailed history, 

25 didn't come into play until just — the period immediately 



llMimSlFIEIU 



869 



BffiEASSIFIEBT 



before the scheduled briefings and ultimately testimony 
by the Director before the intelligence committees. 

Now, what went on prior to the tenth, first off, 
again, the stories were coming out. Certainly from all 
that I knew — and I think it is still borne out today -- 
a lot that was being reported wasn't accurate, wasn't 
true. There was concern about the speculation there. 

So, there was a frustration of not being able 
to tell the story and get out the facts without being put 
in a position of compromising the initiative and, in fact, 
risking what at that point was viewed — risking some 
people's lives. 

So, there was, however, recognition that, geez, 
we are going to have to go and brief Congress, especially 
the appropriate bodies. 

During that period — in fact, in part, with my 
advice. Admiral Poindexter did make several phone calls to 
various members of Congress. I can't remember exactly 
who he was able to get hold of and who he wasn't. The 
people he intended to call were Senator Leahy, Senator 
Durenberger, Congressman Hamilton, Congressman Stump, 
Congressman Hyde, Senator Byrd, Senator Dole, Congressman 
Michel, Congressman Wright — the obvious leaders and 
chairmen and ranking of the committees of jurisdiction. 
So, there was a series of phone calls he made. 



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HNSHSIIKBi' 



basically saying, "Look, a lot of what you are hearing 
isn't right, but there is something going on. I can't 
teil you all the details now, but as soon as we are in 
a position to do it, we will do so." 

So, that was happening during this whole period. 
Q Let me just ask you about your own knowledge about 
one event. 

As of this meeting with the President November 10, 
were you aware there had been the previous January Finding, 
Presidential Finding with regard to the Iran initiative? 
A I may have been aware of it just prior to that. 
I can't tell you exactly the date when I became aware of 
the finding. It was in this period that I became aware 
of the finding, that there was a finding, in this sort of 
January 2nd — excuse me, November 2 - November 10 period. 

Whether it was the November 10 meeting or 
right before, I just can't tell you exactly. That was 
a period where I was told -- became aware there was a 
finding. 

20 In fact, I was even shown the finding. 

21 Q This November 2nd or 3rd to November 10th time 
period, did you attend prior to this meeting on the 10th -- 



23 did you attend any other meetings with the President with 



regard to this matter? 



25 A Well, there were no meetings specifically 



there were no meetings spe^ 

UNfilASmlT 



871 



ONtt/BSfFIEBT 



11 



addressing this matter, but I attended as a norm every 
9; 30 national secunfrty briefing with the President on a 
dd^iy basis, with Admiral Poindexter, the Chief of Staff, 
the Vice-President, and the President. 

So, obviously, during this period, in the course 
of that meeting, the fact that this story was out there 
and that, geez, we were getting killed by the story and 
there was a lot of speculation that wasn't right, and 
frustration, as I mentioned before about not being able 
to give what we thought was the proper context of the 
story out. 

So, there were — that wasn't a specific meeting 
to discuss this initiative, but at that 9:30 national 
security briefing, it did come up. 

Q Were — did you take notes at those meetings? 
A No, I did not. The only time that I would 
take a note, take a note in that meeting, was an action 
item such as, "Go put together a response to the 
Maggy Thatcher letter to the President" or "Make sure we 
get a response." 

If it were an action item, I would take a note 
on it and go get the action started and then typically 
dispose of those notes afterwards, because they were just 

24 reminders for me. 

25 Q I take it these were informal meetings. No one 



iiliiflli&fS^FHft^ 



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MffiHsgm^ 



12 



1 
2 
3 

4 
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7 

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20 

21 Q Let me — 

22 A Or Mr. McDaniel. 

23 Q Let me ask you to direct your attention to 

24 the meeting that took place on November 10th. I gave a list 

25 of people that was there. I don't know if you can remember 



would take notes. 

A The procedure, certainly since the period I was 
there, and my impression was even the period before, was that 
no notes were taken at the 9:30 national security briefing. 

Q I will just ask it that way. Was it the 
normal practice for deputies to attend the 9:30 national 
security briefing? 

A I believe so. At least it started with 
Admiral Poindexter. It may have started then when 
Admiral Poindexter was the deputy to Mr. McFarlane, but 
I know that when Don Fortier was his deputy, he attended. 
When I came on board, certainly within a period 
of a few days, I started attending. 

Q Were there other sorts of people at the deputy 
level who attended the meetings? 

A Rod McDaniel, Executive Secretary, typically 
attended. Now, I don't think the Executive Secretary did 
before, but once I came on board, John decided that he 
wanted Rod to attend those also. So, most often Rod 
attended also. 



IHVtiBnannDflrfr. 



873 



wmm 



13 



the list. 

A Yes. 

Q I will read off the names that I had. I will 
ask you as best you recall who was there. 

A It was an event that I certainly can remember, 
so I think I remember everyone there. It was Monday, 
the 10th, as you have indicated, of November. I believe 
that was a Monday. 
Q Correct. 

A It was, of course, the President, the Vice- 
President^ Secretary Shultz, Secretary Weinberger, 
Attorney General Meese, the Chief of Staff, Mr. Regan, 
Admiral Poindexter, myself, and I believe that is the full 
attendance. 

Q Do you recall whether Mr. Casey was present? 
A Excuse me, yes. Mr. Casey was present. 
Q Okay. 

Had that meeting been called for a particular 
purpose? 

A I learned about it from Admiral Poindexter on 
that Monday morning. Basically, it was to talk about the 
Iran initiative and the fact that we needed to get our 
story out to the public and tell as much as we could to the 
public and discuss how to go about doing that, because 
the frustration was peaking. It had been roughly a week 



IMASSim. 



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since the revelation in the Middle Eastern Journal. The 
press stories were running one or two a day. 

As I said, there was a lot of speculation that 
wasn't accurate. Things were getting out of context. 
So, it was a frustration we couldn't get our story out. 

So, it was a meeting to discuss, geez, how do 
we get our story out and how can we tell as much as we can 
to the public? 

There were two -- in the context of the whole 
discussion, it was, geez, let's explain why we did whc.t we 
are doing and tell as much as we can, put it in the policy 
context. And let's plan on making a public statement. 

There was concern by — essentially, everyone 
there, that some aspects of what was going on had to be 
protected because of the lives of the hostages and the 
people involved. Certainly, the President felt very 
strongly that we couldn't jeapordize or risk anyone's life. 
^S At the same time, there was a clear view that 

"'^ we had to tell the intelligence committees, give them 

a full briefing and get prepared to brief them as soon as 

21 possible and get that ongoing. 

22 So, there was sort of a parallel. 

23 Q Was the President given a factual briefing or 

24 overview about what had taken place in the initiative from 

25 the beginning or any time? 



iicyis&u^&T 



875 



mmm 



15 



A Yes. What Admiral Poindexter did for the benefit 
of the entire group really is to sort of lay out from his 
own personal notes a recounting of events, what had 
transpired, and what had been accomplished, in effect, in 
terms of trying to establish some relationship with Iran 
and also, of course, trying to win the freedom of the 
hostages. 

So, we went through from his own personal 
notes, whichSiwr impression was — was pretty much based on 
his memory with, you know, perhaps some consultation with 
Colonel North and maybe some consultation with 
Mr. McFarlane, but I just can't confidently say that, but 
I assume so — basically, his personal notes laying down -- 
here is the recollection. Ke went through all of that for 
the entire group. 

Q Something in the Tower Commission report led me 
to believe you took notes of the general meeting. 

A I did. I did, indeed. There was a conscious 
decision going in we ought to take notes of that 
meeting. It was a specific meeting of all the President's 
national security advisors, one; and secondly, it was 
anticipated we were going to try to determine how much we 
could state publicly. 

So, there was going to have to be some -- in 
essence — direction coming oulT o^ that. 



tW»AI»IW 



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Q I have not — I am sorry. I have not as of this 
time seen those notes. I anticipate that they are going 
to be made available to us. 

But do you recall whether you took notes on 
Admiral Poindexter's factual briefing? 

A I took notes of the entire meeting in shorthand 
fashion. Yes, I put down what Admiral Poindexter was 
briefing on events. 

Q You obviously now know what the President knew 
and what he didn't know and sort of the events prior to the 
finding. 

A Right. 

Q They have become a matter of some substantial 



14 'S 

dxpute 



A 

Do you have any recollection of what Admiral 



Poindexter said about the United States involvement in the 

Iran initiative prior to the finding? Do you recall what 

he briefed the general group on? 

A To the best of my knowledge, there are sort of 

two areas of controversy that have come up since the time 

in terms of pre-finding events. 

One is that August-September time frame, and 

whether there was a prior or after approval of the Israeli 
2* shipment. 
25 The other is what happened in November and what 



linJiiBlaYii^NttL^n 



877 



iwea^FiiffT 



17 



do we know about that. 

Q Right. 

A To the best of my knowledge, the November event 
wasn't brought up at all. 

In fact, that sort of — that whole issue just 
came up later as the effort continued to try to find out all 
the facts of what happened, and what was the sequence of 
events. 

The Israeli September shipment — 

Q Let me make sure I understand. 

You have no recollection of him even mentioning 
anything about a November shipment? 

A That is correct. 

Q Okay . 

A In fact, my recollection, frankly, is that that 
whole November shipment and issue came up late in the whole 
process of trying to get all the facts put together. 

The September issue, my recollection is, was 
mentioned and, in fact, was mentioned the way we consistently 
were relaying it and, in fact, just to this day it is 
consistent with my understanding that the Israelis did, 
in fact, make a — either August or September shipment. 

I think it was referred to as September. Now, 
I am not quite sure what the facts say, frankly, whether 
it was August or September 



IMlASSm. 



878 



24 
25 



mmm 



1 Q I think, actuelly, the facts show it was one in 

2 each. 

3 A Is that right? 

4 Q Yes. 

5 A There was a September shipment that the Israelis 

6 made to Iran and that we found — without our permission -- 

7 that we found out afterwards. That is my recollection 

8 of exactly how John -- that was his first briefing of that 

9 to that group. That was exactly my recollection of what 
10 he said. 

I"! That remained consistent throughout, ironically, 

12 with my understanding of what it was and is my understanding 

13 today of what transpired. 

14 Q ■ I know that there was probably not as large an 
■J5 event as of the day that the briefing took place as it 
•jg has become today. 

■jy Do you recall whether anyone else in the room 

•jg reacted to his briefing on the events of August and 

19 September of 198 5 in a negative way — "That is not the 

20 way I remember it. Admiral Poindexter" — anything along 
those lines? 

A No. There was no controversy, certainly, at that 



23 meeting. 



In fact, again, I didn't even become aware of any 
controversy about the August-September time frame. There 



UvlllWiHHrmi«P 



879 



ims^Ef' 



19 



was later on some confusion of what happened in November, 
as I said. That whole event came up later. 
Q Right. 
A No controversy on August-September. 

I know that Secretary Shultz in the meeting at some 
point relayed that Mr. McFarlane had explained some — as 
the Secretary put it — some convoluted or ;^omplex scheme 
of an airplane going here, an airplane going there, etc., 
and so forth, but I didn't associate that with August- 
September. 

In fact, to this day I am not sure it was 
August-September. I think that was probably more the May 
shipment when Mr. McFarlane went to Tehran. 

So, there was no controversy in that meeting. 
Again, I wasn't aware through the whole time there was any 
controversy over that issue. The first time that a 
controversy arose or I realized it was at issue was when we 
learned of Mr. McFarlane 's testimony before the Senate 
Select Committee. 

MR. VAN CLEVE: So the record is clear, you mean 
the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence? 

THE WITNESS: Yes, on Intelligence, right. 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q Was the finding produced at that meeting, if you 



880 



im^FifF 



A I just can't remember if John brought it in. He 
probably brought it in. I can't remember. He certainly 
mentioned the finding in the meeting. I suspect he even 
read it, but I just can't tell you. 

Q Was there any -- did you have the impression 
there was anyone in the room who had not earlier known 
about the finding? 

A I think, in fact, even as John brought it up, he 
said, "All of you haven't even seen this finding yet," or 
something to that effect, but at some point, Secretary 
Shultz -- I became aware of the fact that Secretary Shultz 
had never recalled seeing th«; finding before. 

Now, I am not sure if he mentioned it at that 
meeting or at some subsequent meeting. He could have 
mentioned at that meeting, "Geez, I didn't realize there 
was a finding." 

Q Thc.t is sort of the question I wanted to ask. 
Was it your impression that he had just never seen a piece 
of paper, the actual words? Or was it your impression that 
he did not really realize, or had not known there had been 

21 an actual finding? 

22 A Again, I am not quite sure at that particular 

23 meeting whether he made the point or expressed an opinion 

24 of not having been aware of the finding or not. 

25 But subsequently, I was aware of the fact that he 



U 




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basically was saying, "Geez, to my recollection, I don't 
ever remember discussing a finding or realized that there 
was one being done." That was one of the gray areas. 

Again, as people were trying to put together 
the facts and — including the meetings and who attended 
them, so forth and so on, there were some recollections 
that at one point or the other, the Secretary had been told 
about the finding, but that was a gray area. 

To my knowledge, it was never completely 
resolved to everybody's satisfaction. 

Q Did you do anything up to this time, up to 
November 10, to get yourself up to speed on these events? 
This must have been — maybe it wasn't, but it seems maybe 
this was all coming at you fairly quickly. 
A Yes. 

Q Did you get briefed by Colonel North or anyone 
about the facts that had taken place? 

A You have described it exactly. It was coming 
at me very quickly. Things were unfolding — I was 
learning things — there was a lot of speculation in the 
press. 

I couldn't — some of which was true, and I didn't 
realize it was true. For example, the McFarlane visit. 
I didn't realize until later that that was true. I thought 
it was not when I first read it. 



UNCLASSllilEO. 



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But I didn't make any specific independent efforts 
I did, as people were trying to start to assemble the facts 
and gather their recollections — I did try to keep myself 
posted and learn through that process. I wasn't doing 
anything independently. So, I was going in and out of 
meetings where people were trying to assemble what is fact, 
what is fiction. It was a process of trying to assemble 
for myself the story of what had happened 

Q Do you recall any discussion at this meeting of 
November 10 about the delayed congressional notification, 
any discussion about the decision not to have notified 
Congress substantially earlier? 

A Again, I can't say conclusively whether or not 
it was brought up in that meeting. By this time, I was 
probably aware of it and either at that meeting or before, 
when I learned of the finding, I learned that in the finding 
itself, there was language to the effect that the Director 
of Central Intelligence should refrain from notifying 
Congress until otherwise directed 

So, I was aware of that direction either before 
that meeting or in the course of that meeting. 

Again, I don't remember any specific discussion of 

23 that in that meeting. There was a discussion, though, and 

24 a recognition that we have to at this point go and brief 

25 Congress. So, if it was brought up, it was brought up in the 



883 



21 



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context of, "We have rot briefed Congress up to now, but 
certainly at this point we have to go brief --" — and by 
"Congress" I am really talking about the intelligence 
committees, specifically, but in terms of all — 

Q And the leadership? 

A Right. In fact, there was a discussion at that 
meeting of also briefing the leadership. 

Q Is there anything else that you recall — 



g 

let me ask you this question, first 

'^ Are your notes of that meeting fairly complete, 

11 



do you think? 

A I think the essence of that meeting should be in 
those notes, yes. 

Q Anything else that you Ecalll as a highlight of 
the meeting I should be asking you about? 
16 A I think we have covered it. The essence of the 

meeting was, geez, we have to get out our story to the 
public, tell as much as we can, while still safeguarding 

19 the people involved, the hostages, and third parties, that 

20 we have to tell — give a full briefing to the intelligence 
committees, brief leadership, a recounting of the policy 

22 basis of the initiative, John going back through a history 

23 of what had transpired and what we had accomplished. 

24 So, that was the essence of the meeting. 

25 A decision made in that meeting was, yes, let's 



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schedule a meeting for the leadership, get that done right 
away; let's start putting in the works a public statement 
the President can make. 

The President felt strongly it ought to be done 
and he ought to do it 

Q There are two other specific questions about that 
meeting. Do you recall any discussion about the financing 
of the arms transactions during the course of the meeting? 
A There was no discussion of financing at all. 
Q Was there any — I understand from various other 
documents I have seen that there was some realization 
by this time that Mr. Ghorbanifar may have started to become 
a problem. Was there — in terms of having lost money on 
the deals or something along those lines 

Do you recall any discussion of him, in particular? 
A There was no discussion of him having any problems 
" or having lost money. In John's recounting of events, he 
'" did point out there were, as he put it, two channels 
'' of -- channel one and channel two, with channel one being 
the first one with Ghorbanifar being the key intermediary 
there; channel two being the most recent one — now 

22 this, of course, is all classified? 

23 Q This is all classified 

24 A I can talk freely 

25 with Rafsanjani being involved in the second one 



IMliA^RE&'r 



885 



DNteASStffir 



25 



through^^^^^^^^l that one being *:he more credible and 
more promising in terms of a contact to the people of 
influence within Iran. 

But there was no — there was no discussion of him 
being in trouble or any financing difficulties. 

Q Did you by this time know that various aspects 
of this entire initiative had beenreally actually performed 
by non-U. S. Government personnel? 

A Well, I realized, of course, the Israelis were 
involved and my impression was that they were sort of the 
key facilitator, that almost all the transactions in terms 
of arms shipments went through the Israelis. 

Q Were you aware Mr. Secord and Mr. Hakim and 
Mr. Dutton and various others were involved? 

A I may have been aware that Secord was involved. 

In fact, I am sure I was aware Secord was involved 
in terms of the meetings that were going on with the 
Iranian intermediaries, that he was helping to facilitate 
those meetings. I wasn't aware of his role in terms of 
the arms shipments or him being involved in facilitating 
that. My impression was that he was one of the links 
between the Iranians. 

Q All right. 

A He was involved in some of those meetings that 
transpired with Colonel North and the CIA representative. 



(ttlEUSiilFifi^ 



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Q I know that by this time and even for the entire 
time you really weren't at the NSC that long a period of 
timo. Was it unusual for the NSC to have been involved -- 
this heavily involved? 

I will describe what I mean by that in a second -- 
this heavily involved in the operational aspects of a 
particular initiative? I mean, essentially, the NSC in 
several ways almost to the exclusion of other — of the 
government agencies was heavily involved in coordinating -- 
Colonel North was actually in Europe working on it, working 
on the release of the hostages and various things. 

Was the degree of NSC involvement in the opera- 
tional aspects of this initiative unusual, in your view? 

A Well, you are right. I really didn't know all 
the operational details, even in this November time frame. 
I hadn't learned all the operational details. But even 
from what I did know, my own view is that it was unusual 
to have that much operational involvement, and that this 
was an exception. 

20 Q Let me move on to the time period between 

21 November 10 and November 13, which was the day of the 

22 President's speech. 

23 Was it then sort of your recollection that the 

24 real chronology and the preparation of the chronology 

25 activity was begun after November 10? 



iUim£SMD., 



887 



IfflCSi^Ftlff^T 



27 



A Yes. 

Q Was there -- 

A Well, just to try to be as specific as possible, 
when you say "chronology", what I associate that with is th^ 
fairly concerted, focused effort that John and Colonel 
North were involved in, principally to put — to lay out 
all the facts and all the events. 

Now, as I said previously, of course, John put 
together his own notes of events. So, I differentiate 
that from the chronology in my — that is the 
context I am answering. 

Q As best you recall, what happened in those few 
days between the 10th and 13th? What efforts were made 
to get the speech ready, to get the facts ready so the 
President could make a speech to the country about what 
had actually taken place on the initiative? 

A After that November 10 meeting, then, as I said, 
there was a clear decision we needed to make a public 
statement and say as much as we can and to put it in proper 
context. We felt we had a good story to say, certainly, 
the President did. 

After that, then, I basically came back and put 
down an outline of what had been discussed at the meeting 
in terms of, "Here is what we ought to make sure we say 
in the speech," and relayed that to the NSC, principally 



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Colonel North and others involved in — and directed them 
to put together a NSC draft of the speech in response to 
the meeting of the senior national security advisors. 

And then, typically, the way the speeches are 
done in the White House, not just this White House, you 
start with an initial draft, you go through a number of 
iterations. 

The NSC put together a draft, and that went, 
ultimately, to the speech writers, and then you sit down in a 
number of sessions over the final hours before the speech 
to basically word-smith it and smooth it. 

That went on in this case. I was involved 
in almost all of those internal White House meetings to 
put the speech in final form. 

Q Was Colonel North involved in those sessions, 
as well? 

A He was involved in a number of them. I am not 
sure if he was at all of them. He was involved in probably 
most of them. But he had the lead role along with other 
members of the NSC staff putting together the first draft 
of the speech. 

Q Was there any — was there any — who else was 
sort of the core group of people putting together the 
draft of the speech? 



25 A Colonel North, his two assistants, Colonel Earl 



* fMubHaalrlbiriTi 



889 



mmsm 



29 



and Colonel Coy -- I am not sure it was Colonel or Commander, 

Q I think it was Commander. 

A Don't let me be embarrassed by having that show 
up. 

Howard Teicher, principally that group. Also 
Mr. McFarlane was consulted in terms of especially the 

initial policy basis of the initiative, because he was 

I or»s*t y 

there, obviously, at the 'on-cot of the initiative. He 

was involved also. 

Q Do you recall any disputes about the substance 
of the speech? I guess when I say "substance", whcit I mean 
is the facts related in the speech. 

A No. There was really no issue or controversy on 
facts. There was the usual arguments about word-smithing 
and how to state something with sort of the trade-off 
between rhetorical flourish and making sure things were said 
in a precise and careful way. 

There were arguments about exactly how much wp 
could say and still accomplish what the President and his 
advisors wanted to accomplish in terms of making sure we 
didn't put anyone at risk, making sure that we recognized, 
as had been decided, it was a covert action and we ought to 
continue to treat it as such. 

So, say as much as you can publicly, but within 
those confines. There were those kinds of decisions that had 



iUiU!U&£U4£B.. 



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to be made. 

Q Did you watch the speech? 

A Yes, I did. 

Q Where were you when you watched the speech? 

A In Admiral Poindexter's office. 

Q Was anyone else there? 

A Yes, Admiral Poindexter; Colonel North was there; 
Mr. McFarlane was there; Dan Howard from the press office 
was there. Paul Thompson was probably there. A group of 
us sat in the Admiral's office and watched it. 

Q Was there a general reaction among you to the 
speech? 

A I must confess we were reasonably upbeat with it. 
Maybe it was unjustified in the aftermath/. 

Q History may have — 

A I don't know what that does speaking for our 
judgment. But you have to remember that we were 
frustrated with not being able to say anything publicly. 
We did feel like we had a good story, and it was more 
policy basis there dating back to May, June, July, as I was 
learning it, than anyone had been aware of, and that we were 
laying out that policy basis. 

23 Moreover, we thought there were things that had 

24 been accomplished that people — we were trying to point out 

25 that people hadn't been aware of. So, in fact, heretofore 



aiwIiLiiflDif IliU'' I ' 



891 



UNSBlSSieiBfcT 



31 



there was no mention of any policy basis at all in the press 
and the press reporting. It had all been portrayed as a 
simple arms-for-hostages deal. This was our first 
opportunity to say, "That is not exactly right. There 
was a strategic objective here." 

We thought, frankly, the first reactions to 
members of Congress and others were a recognition there was 
a strategic objective, but arms was the wrong way to do it, 
etc. 

So, we were — I guess reasonably positive about 
the speech. 

Q I understand that. 

(Discussion off the record.) 
BY MR. EGGLESTON: 
Q It is my understanding Admiral Poindexter 
briefed reporters on kind of a background basis on the 13th, 
as well; is that your recollection? 

18 ;^ He did brief reporters on a background basis. 

19 I can't tell you for sure if it was the 13th. It was 

20 around the 12th or 13th time frame. It was around when the 

21 President made his address. It probably was the 13th. That 

22 was the date of the address, as I remember it. 

23 Q Did you attend that? 

24 A I did not. 

25 Q By the 13th — let me ask Uie question this way, 




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first. Essentially, at least as the way the Tower 
Commission reports, there seems to be some sort of 
transcript of that briefing. Admiral Poindexter denied 
there had been any sort of involvement in arms 
transactions prior to the time the finding was signed. 

In retrospect, that turns out not to be true, 
at least as to the November 1985 transaction. Had 
this November 198 5 issue begun to arise by the 13th? 

You indicate as of the 10th you thought that had 
sort of fallen by the — or hadn't been raised? 
A I don't think so. 

Frankly, I think it all came up after the speech. 
I think it came up, frankly, near the time of the press 
conference. In fact, maybe even after the press 
conference. 

But with respect to the Admiral's briefing, 
I wasn't there, as I indicated. I did hear about it 
afterwards. In fact, I got a copy of it afterwards. Quite 
frankly, I don't think I ever got a chance to read the whole 
thing because events were unfolding very quickly. 

But here is my understanding of what he actv.ally 
said. Initially, he gave the impression that no, nothing 
happened in 1985. Then I think he went back and said, 
well, someone else asked him a question that triggered his 
recollection of what he had said previously in the 



UNCli<;5MA 



=r»rTi 



893 



mmm 



33 



transcript. 

He said, "I better go back to that question," or 
something to that effect. I can't tell you verbatim. This 
is my recollection. 

I tried to put it in a different context. What 
I believe he was referring to there was the — again, that 
>|ugust or September shipment and saying that, geez, there 
was a third party that was involved in August-September, and 
we did condone that with the — and there was confusion, 
frankly, from our own press people about what he was saying, 
what John was saying. 

But certainly, my understanding from John of what 
his intent was, was to say that that shipment happened and 
we ultimately condoned it after the fact and once we 
learned about it. 

And hence, the more accurate thing to say about 
198 5 was that there was something that happened there and 
we ultimately condoned it and not leave the impression that 
we never acquiesced in anything that went on in August 
or September of 1985, or 1985. 

So, I think he went back to that question. In 
fact, I know he went back to that question in that briefing. 

Q Racing ahead, but — let me get back to these 
days anyway. Racing ahead to the President's press 
conference on the 19th, he actually — as is now fairly 



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well known — indicated there was no third country 
involved. A subsequent statement had to be released. 
Was there ditaission — it seems to me that Admiral 
Poindexter's remarks on the 13th are perhaps reflective of 
some desire to keep Israel's name out of this. 

A Oh, yes. 

Q Was there a concerted effort to keep their name 
out of it? 

A Absolutely. There was a quite conscious decision 
to not let Israel's name be associated with the action 
in public. 

Again, there was the — there was a decision 
properly to brief the intelligence committees in full and 
the leadership. Those briefings, in those briefings, 
Israel's name was brought up. That was in a classified 
setting. There was a very conscious decision not to 
mention Israel's name in public. But that wasn't intended 
to translate into an intent to mislead or, in fact, to 
misstate the President's — the President certainly knew 
Israel was involved, a third country was involved, and it 
was Israel. 

We talked about that many times, including the 
10th meeting. Obviously, he knew about it before, dating 
back to 1985. 



25 Q Well, there must have been discussions about how 



utmsMiu 



895 



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35 



you could have a press conference and how you could deal 
with — respond in a candid way to the press without 
revealing the role of one of the major actors in the whole 
transaction. 

A There were, indeed. Again, to try to put things 
in context, it is difficult, as it is now with everything 
that has unfolded since then. We were dealing with a 
covert action. You have to decide, all right, what can 
you say about a covert action and attempt to say as much 
as you can to explain the basis of your policy and hopefully 
get people to understand it while not saying things that will 
jeapordize the initiative or the people involved? 

So, there are certain things that you conclude 
you are just going to have to say, "I can't comment" on. 
The third country — and Israeli involvement was one of 
those -- it was a conscious decision in preparation for 
the press conference that if the President got a question 
on third country involvement or Israeli shipments, what 
we approved, what we didn't, that the response was going to 
be that, "We can't comment on third country involvement; 
there are certain aspects of the specifics of the initiative 
we just can't get into because of concern for protecting 
the people involved and so forth." 

So, that was the intent. Now, it didn't translate, 
obviously, exactly into that with the President's statement 



lilv'liijntfuy luvnn 



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36 



but that is what he -- based on our discussions with him, 
in preparation for the press conference, that is what he 
had intended to do. 

I don't think the President intended to mislead 
with that statement. You can't put yourself in anyone 
else's mind or body, obviously, but that is what we agreed 
on going in, and everybody was comfortable that that was the 
proper way to handle difficult areas where you could 
essentially compromise the initiative, simply used 
standard procedure, the "no comment". 

So, I think there were two things that sort 
of -- in the dynamics of a press conference, this one 
was particularly dynamic, that happened. One was that -- 
at least the; first time it was brought up — and I have to 
go back and look at the transcript. My recollection is -- 
and I was watching the press conference. The: first time 
it was brought up, it was brought up in the context of a 
number of Israeli shipments, not just the August-September. 

"Mr. President, there was a September shipment 
and then there was a shipment of F-4 parts, and there were 
a number of Israeli — isn't it true that we actually 
condoned more than what you are saying now because we 
agreed to Israeli shipments?" 
2^ The answer to that was properly "no". Certainly 

25 that is my understanding., it was no, because our attempt in 



I ■Hnnlft.K^VII^EHsn'l 



897 





37 



laying out the facts was to lay out everything that we 
had agreed to, either by condoning, before the fact, after 
the fact, or by authorizing and making sure that we 
accounted for those shipments. 

So, our intent was that everything we said that 
we had shipped was concluded — it was included. 

So, if — one of the questions seemed to be 
leading to the conclusion that, geez, well, you are 
being cute, because you are saying this is all we 
authorized, but yet this other stuff was going on and you 
were allowing it to happen. 

The answer to that, certainly to my knowledge, 
and to my knowledge today, was no. So , I think the 
President got caught up in that — trying to properly say 
no, we didn't — everything we authorized we are talking 
about, and also trying not to confirm that the third 
party involved was Israel. 

Q By the 19th, were you aware that the United 
States had a substantial involvement in the November 
transaction? 

A By the 19th? 

Q Yes, by the time of the press conference. 

A Gee, again, I don't think so. Frankly, I think 
and this — part of the difficulty was the difficulty 
getting all the facts out. As the Tower Commission 



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reported, as they put it, they could attest to, because 
of inadequate records and perhaps you can attest to it -- 
Q Yes, I can. 

A — it was terribly difficult putting down all 
the facts and getting them all together. 

So, perhaps unacceptable as this may seem, 
we were still in the process of laying out the facts, 
although certainly I was operating on the assumption that 
we had accounted for everything in terms of transaction of 
arms. 

But I don't believe the November shipment had 
come up at this point. It may have, but if it did come up, 
it was in the context of something that wasn't counted 
because it was a shipment that went over and went back, 
as ultimately happened. 

But — 
Q I am sorry. Would you say that again? I just 
lost it. Did you indicate that you, as of the 19th, knew 
there had been a shipment but also knew it had ultimately 
been returned? 



21 A No. I don't recall it coming up, the November 

22 shipment coming up at this point. What I said is if it did 

23 come up, it came up in the context of it being a shipment 
2^ that went over and went back and, hence, wasn't one that 
25 was scored as a_ shipment of atsiS..*^ *^ - « •*■•' 

m 




899 



UNGtA^Dci^ 



39 



But the controversy on it certainly didn't come up 
until after the press conference. The controversy was 
this: was it, geez, did we know that was a shipment of arms 
before it went over or not? 

Q Right. 

A Now, that controversy after the press conference, 
it certainly came up there was a November shipment. 

Q Right. 

A It came up in the context of the Israelis 
shipped something, we found out about it, and we helped 
get it back. It was that sort of context. 

Q Who was it who was telling that version of the 
November 198 5? 

A Colonel North principally was telling that. 
He was the one who had the most corporate memory at this 
point. 

Q Did he tell that directly to you? 

A Not so much directly to me, but he certainly 
said that in some of the meetings that I was in and out 
of. 

Q But you think they were — it is your recollection 
that those were after the President's press conference? 

A The most extensive discussion of that certainly 
came afterwards. As I said, I don't remember it being 
discussed before, but if it did, it came up in the context 



it&icu^mcifa. 



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mneissifiEiT 



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of something going, something coming back, not being 
scored. 

The night of the press conference, after the 
press conference, in fact, it is my first — that is my 
first vivid memory of that November shipment. That is when 
we were trying to lay d