Full text of "Sessional papers of the Dominion of Canada 1902"

See other formats

I!ili|ilii!|li!i!li{iil

ni'i'i;

METROPOLITAN

TORONTO

LIBRARY^

Social Sciences

'Closed

"y. }

Digitized by tlie Internet Arcliive

in 2010 witli funding from

University of Toronto

littp://www.arcli ive.org/details/sessionalpaperso3613canauoft

SESSIONAL PAPEES

volltmh: 13

SECOND SESSION OF THE NINTH PARLIAMENT

of THE

DOMINION OF CANADA

SESSION 1902

VOLUME XXXVI

ff^xss^

2 Edw. VII. List of Sessional Papers. A. 1902

OTHER DOCUMENTS

IN CONNECTION WITH

THE ROYAL COMMISSION

IN RE

THE ALLEGED COMBINATION

PAPER MANUFACTURERS AND DEALERS

PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT

'(-■^IS^i

^S^r^eie

-■*^>-

OTTAWA

PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST
EXCELLENT MA.TESTY

1902
[No. .5.3—1902].

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

TABLE OF CONTENTS.

PAGE.

Order in Council re Appointment of Commissioner 1

Commission 3

Report of Commissioner 7

Order in Council reducing Duty on News Printing Paper 19

Minutes of Evidence 23-175

Atkinson, Joseph 72

Barber, John E. . .. 95

Buntin, Alexander 68

Diugman, William S 60

Dillon, William B 158

DuiTy, John H 152

Gillean, William D 121

Graham, Hugh 171

Hardy, James 43, 89, 139, 170

Macf arlane, John 103

Marsan, William S 170

Poole, John M 51

Preston, Thomas 55

Robertson, Charles N 78

Rolland, Jean D.- 132,171

Ross, Philip D 23

Rowley, William H 136

Scrimgeour, Arch. C 140, 151

Spicer, Fremont W 161

Squier, Frank 147

Stephenson, Sydney. 76

Tarte, Louis Joseph 31,129

Wilson, Frank H 134

Woodruff, Welland D 114

Young, Edmund L 40

Arguments : —

Aylesworth, Mr., K.C 175, 207

White, Mr., K.C 202

Exhibits 211

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

ORDER p^E APPOINTMENT OF COMMISSIONER

Extract from a report of the Committee of the Honouraile the Privy Council, ap-
proved by His Excellency on April 25, 1901.

On a report, dated April 22, 1901, from the Minister of Finance, submitting as
follows : — That section IS of chapter 16 of the Acts of 1897 (' The Customs Tariff,
1897 '). enacts as follows : —

' IS. Whenever the Governor in Council has reason to believe that with regard to
any article of commerce there exists any trust, combination, association or agreement
of any kind among manufacturers of such article or dealers therein to unduly enhance
the price of such article or in any other way to unduly promote the advantage of the
manufacturers or dealers at the expense of the consumers, the Governor in Council
may commission or empower any judge of the Supreme Court or Exchequer Court
of Canada, or of any Superior Court in any Province of Canada, to inquire in a sum-
mary way into and report to the Governor in Council whether such trust, combina-
tion, association or agreement exists.

' 2. The judge may compel the attendance of witnesses and examine them under
oath and require the production of books and papers, and shall have such other neces-
sary powers as are conferred upon him by the Governor in Council for the purposes of
such inquiry.

' 3. If the judge reports that such trust, combination, association or agreement
exists, and if it appears to the Governor in Council that such disadvantage to the
consumers is facilitated by the duties of customs imposed on a like article, when im-
ported, then the Governor in Council shall place such article on the free list, or so
reduce the duty on it as to give to the public the benefit of reasonable competition in
Buch article.'

The Minister further submits that he has received a communication (copy at-
tached), dated at Toronto, April 10, 1901, from A. G. Macdonald, president, and John
A. Cooper, secretary-treasurer of the Canadian Press Association, reporting that a ^
combination exists among Canadian paper manufacturers, the effect of which is to
unduly increase the price of news and printing paper, and that the executive of the
said Association is prepared to submit witnesses and evidence in support of this state-
ment.

That he has received a numerous deputation from the said Canadian Press As-
sociation who have urged the necessity of an inquiry under the provisions of the sec-
tion above quoted.

That from the statements in the said communication of April 10, 1901, and from
the representations made by the said deputation he is satisfied there is reasonable
ground for such an inquiry as is contemplated by the statutes.

The Minister recommends, for these reasons, that the Governor General in Coun-
cil be pleased to declare that the Governor in Council has reason to believe that with
regard to news and printing paper there exists a trust, combination, association or
agreement among manufacturers of such paper or dealers therein to unduly enhance
the price of such paper or to unduly promote the advantage of the manufacturers or
dealers at the expense of the consumers ; and that the Governor General in Council
be further pleased to commission and empower the Honourable Henri Thomas Tasche-

53—1

2 ROYAL COilMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD Vii., A. 1902

reau, of the City of Montreal, one of the Judges of the Superior Court of the Province
of Quebec, to inquire into and to report to His Excellency in Council, under and in ac-
cordance with the provisions of section 18 of chapter 16 of the statutes of 1897, ' The
Customs TariS, 1897,' whether any such trust, combination, association or agreement
exists, and to confer upon the said Honourable Henri Thomas Taschereau all the
powers that may be necessary for the purposes of such inquiry.

The Committee submit the foregoing for His Excellency's approval.

(Sgd.) JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

The Canadian Press Association,

Toronto, April 10, 1901.

Honoiirable W. S. Fielding, Minister of Finance,

Ottawa.

Honourable Sir, — On May 18, 1900, the Canadian Press Association, at a meeting
in Toronto, discussed for the first time the Paper Makers' Association and the effects
of that Association on the publishing interests. At that time the following resolution
was passed : —

' That the Executive of the C. P. A. believe that a combine now exists among
Canadian Paper Manufacturers, the effect of which is to unduly increase the price of
news and printing paper, contrary to section 18 of the Customs Tariff Act of 1897.
That this Executive is prepared to submit witnesses and evidence in support of this
statement, and we, therefore, respectfully ask that the government order an investiga-
tion under section 18 and sub-sections of the Customs Tariff Act of 1897, with a view
to ameliorating the existing condition.'

At the recent annual meeting of the Press Association, this resolution was reaf-
firmed, and is now submitted to you for the consideration of yourself and the govern-
ment.

We have, &c..

(Sgd.) A. F. MACDONAXD,

President.

*.Sgd.) JOHN A. COOPEK,

Secretary-Treasurer.

1^ EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

COMMISSION

MINTO (L.S.) CANADA.

Edward the Se\'enth, hy the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain
and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, &c., &c., &c.

To all to whom these Presents shall come, or whom the same may in anywise
•concern,

Greetino : —

Whereas in and by Chapter 16 of the Acts of the Parliament of Canada, passed
in the sixtieth and sixty-first years of the reign of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria,
entitled ' An Act to consolidate and amend the Acts respecting the Duties of Customs,'
it is among other things therein enacted that whenever the Governor in Council has
reason to believe that with regard to any article of commerce there exists any trust,
combination, association or agreement of any kind, among manufacturers of such
article or dealers tlierein, to unduly enhance the price of such article, or in any other
way unduly promote the advantage of the manufacturers or dealers at the expense of
the consumers, the Governor in Council may commission or empower any Judge of the
Supreme Court or Exchequer Court of Canada, or of any Superior Court in any
Province of Canada, to inquire in a summary way into and report to the Governor in
Council whether such trust, combination, association or agreement exists.

And whereas, it appears from a report from Our Minister of Finance, approved
by our Governor in Council, on the twenty-fifth day of April, one thousand nine
hundred and one, that the Governor in Council has reason to believe that with regard
to news and printing paper there exists a trust, combination, association or agreement
among manufacturers of such paper or dealers therein to unduly enhance the price of
such paper, or to imduly promote the advantage of the manufacturers or dealers, at the
expense of the consumers, and it is expedient that inquiry under oath should be made
with respect to the said matter.

Now know ye, that We, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada,
do by these Presents nominate, constitute and appoint the Honourable Henri Thomas
Taschereau, of the City of Montreal, one of the Judges of the Superior Court of the
Province of Quebec, to be a Commissioner to inquire into and report with respect to
the said allegation, and as to whether any trust, combination, association or agreement
as hereinbefore mentioned exists.

And We do hereby, under the authority of the Act passed in the sixtieth and
«ixty-first years of the reign of Her late Majesty Queen Victoria, Chapter 16, and
entitled : ' An Act to consolidate and amend the Acts respecting the Duties of
Customs,' confer upon you. Our said Commissioner, the power of summoning before
you any witnesses, and of requiring them to give evidence on oath, orally or in writing,
or on solemn affirmation, if they are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and to
produce such documents and things as you, Our said Commissioner, shall deem requi-
site to the full investigation of the matters into which you are hereby appointed to
examine, inquire into and investigate. To have, hold, exercise and enjoy the said
office, place and trust unto you, the said Henri Thomas Taschereau, together with
the rights, powers, privileges and emoluments unto the said office, place a ad trust of
right and by law appertaining during pleasure.
53— IJ

4 ROYAL COMMISSIOT^^ RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

And We do hereby require and direct you, Our said Commissioner, to report to
Our Governor in Council, the result of your investigation, together with the evidence
taken before you, and any opinion you may see fit to express thereon.

In testimony whereof, We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent, and
the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto afiixed : Witness—

Our Right Trusty and EigJit 'Well-Beloved Oousin, The Bight
Honourable Sir Gilbert John Elliot, Earl of Minto and
Tiscount Melgund of Melgund, County of Forfar, in the
Peerage of the United Kingdom, Baron Minto of Minto,
County of Roxburgh, in the Peerage of Great Britain, Baronet
of Nova Scotia, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distin-
guished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, &c., dec.
Governor General of Canada.

At Our Government House, in Our City of Ottawa, this Twenty-fifth day of April,
in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and one, and in the first year of
Our Eeign.

By command,

(Sgd.) JOSEPH POPE,

Under Secretary of State.

(Sgd.) A. Power, for the Deputy of the
Minister of Justice, Canada.

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

LETTER TRANSMITTING REPORT OF COMMISSIONER

Montreal, November 27, 1901.

To THE Secretary of State,
Ottawa.

Sir, — I have the honour ti) transmit to you my report to His Excellency the
Governor General in Council, as special Commissioner appointed in the matter of the
alleged Combination of Paper Manufacturers.

You will also receive a parcel containing three bound volumes forming the record
and proceeding, and a document containing the minutes of the Paper Makers' Associa-
tion of Canada.

I have the honour to be, sir,

Your obedient servant,

(Sd.) HENRI T. TASCHEREAU,

Comvii'isioner.

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

REPORT OF COMMISSIONER

To His Excellency the Governor General in Courcil : —

The undersigned, having been appointed by special commission issued on the 25th
of April, 1901, under the authority of an Order in Council of the same date, and by
\-irtue of section 18 of chapter 16 of the Acts of 1897 ('The Customs Taiiff Act, 1897 ')
Commissioner to inquire into and report to the Governor General in Council ' whether
there exists among manufacturers or dealers of news and printing paper, any trust,
combination, association, or agreement of any kind, to unduly enhance the price of said
article, or in any other way to unduly promote the advantage of the said manufacturers
or dealers, at the expense of the consumer,' has the honour to report as follows : —

A very full investigation was held in Montreal, Toronto and New York, during
■which the commissioner had the able assistance of eminent counsel, namelv, Messrs.
King, Barwick and Aylesworth, representing the complaining parties (The Canadian
Press Association), and W. J. White, K.C., representing The Paper Manufacturers,
respondents.

The whole record is transmitted with the present report, and it includes the deposi-
tions, taken in shorthand, of a large number of witnesses examined on either side, the
exhibits filed in the course of the inquiry and the arguments of counsel.

The scope of the investigation, by the words of the Statute and of the Commission,
is two-told, and the two questions submitted are : —

First, — Whether the alleged association, or combination, or agreement does exist
in Canada.

Secondly, — If so, whether it is such as to unduly enhance the price of news and
printing paper, or in any other way to unduly promote the advantage of the manufac-
turers or dealers, at the expense of the consumers.

I.— EXISTENCE OF THE ALLEGED COMBINATION, ASSOCIATION, OR

AGREEMENT.

At the second sitting of the Commission, the respondents have voluntarily shown
and produced the document containing the agreement by which, on the 21st February,
1900, twenty -six manufacturing companies, or firms, being practically all the producers
of news and printing paper in Canada, formed themselves into an association to be called
'The Paper Makers Association of Canada.' A copy of said agreement, and of all
forms and schedules attached thereto, is to be found in the evidence and in Exhibit
P— 4.

Of the twenty-six original associates, only twelve, comprising the strongest compan-
ies, have actually made, in the hands of the treasurer, the deposit which the agreement
calls for, and the fourteen other members, it would appear, are not now recognized as
regular members by the twelve who have conformed themselves to the by-laws. But
the e^^dence is to the effect that the minimum prices fixed by the association have been
since and are still adopted and maintained by every producer or dealer in the country,
whether or not a member of the association, and that all manufacturers and dealers, in
Canada, have availed themselves of the advantages of the said association (see particu-
larly Mr. Gillean's deposition). As to the paper dealers, although desirous of becoming
members, they were refused admission into this association of 1900, so that, so far as

8 ROYAL COMMISSIO^' RE ALLEGED PAPER COilBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the dealers are concerned, no combination can be laid at their doors, but the combina-
tion of 1900 interested and affected tliem, as it did every person concerned in the
paper trade, and they submitted to the regulation of prices imposed by the association.

It appears that as far back as 1879, the manufacturers and dealers had for the first
time associated themselves for the purposes of discussing the interests of the paper trade
and of regulating prices, but no practical results -n-ere attained then, no fines imposed on
members and no restrictions had on free competition. This first association became
letlre inorte.

In 1886, another association was formed under the name of 'The Paper Trade Asso-
ciation of Canada' (see by-laws, exhibit P. 37), but without any apparent regulation as
to prices. In 1892, on September "22, the old association of 1879 was revived and
several members agreed upon a basis of minimum selling prices for the several grades of
paper referred to, but without imposition of fines or sanction of any sort. (See exhibit
D — 2). No results followed and free competition was uppermost until the manufac-
turers decided, in February, 1900, to form their present association, with stringent
rules, strong organization and heavy fines.

The document witnessing that agreement being now before the Commission speaks
for itself. Its contents can be summarized, as briefly as possible, as follows: —

Article I. — Gives the name of the association as above.

Article II. — States the object, namely: 'The promotion of friendlv business relations
between the manufacturers, their agents and the trade generallv ; the regulation and
maintenance of fair prices of paper, and conference and mutual <iid with reference to
purchase of supplies and the like.' The agreement embraces all sales in the Dominion
of Canada and Newfoundland, but does not embrace paper exported out of the Domin-
ion, with the exception of Newfoundland.

Article III. — Provides for the dissolution of the association by mutual consent, and
for the retirement or resignation of any of the parties on giving three months' previous
notice to the secretary-treasurer.

Article IV. — Oificers of the association to be : A president, two ^^ce-p^esidentL»
and Messrs. Jenkins and Hardv, of Toronto, accountants, to act as secretary-treasurer '
said ofticers to serve until the next annual meeting, or until appointment of successors.

Article V. — Duties of the president are : To preside at all meetings, and gener-
ally to perform the ordinary duties of president, or chairman, of such an association.
Vice-presidents to act in the absence of the president. Duties of secretary-treasurer :
To have charge of books, papers and records, collect and receive, and deposit in a
chartered bank in Toronto, all moneys of the association ; make all payments ; keep all
books of account ; call meetings when found necessary ; take and record all minutes of
proceedings ; give all notices and sign all papers and documents required ; advise by
wire or post all members, agents, or travellers, of any changes in the association's prices
and terms.

Article VI. — Pro^ddes for the notices and the holding of regular quarterly meet-
ings in Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal, and of the annual meeting, and also of special
meetings at the request of four members, and of committee meetings. It also provides
for representation of members at meetings, states what shall be the quorum (a majority of
the members of the association or committee), and enacts that ' any resolution adopted
at any meeting of the association by a majority of the members then present, shall be
binding upon all the parties hereto.'

Article VII. — Entitles all members to attend all meetings, and vote thereat, either
personally or bj' proxy.

Article VIII. — Contains the following agreements and promises by and between the
covenantors : —

(a.) Thev shall be responsible for the acts, defaults and breaches committed by
their respective agents, travellers and emplovees, and bv the agents, travellers and
employees of the said respective agents of members ;

REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONER 9

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

('). ) They and their agents, and others t'ui- whom they are respectively resjioiisihle,
will conform to and abide by any resolution adopted under Article 6 ;

(c.) They and their agents, etc., will not quote, accept or book orders for, offer or
agree to sell, or sell, the goods covered by the agreement at lower prices or on better
terms and conditions than those fixed by the schedule of pi'ices, annexed to the agree-
ment, or fixed bv any schedule of prices which may be adopted by resolution of the
association under Article VI., in substitution for all or any of the original schedules ;

(d.) And they, and their agents, A-c, will not aid, abet, counsel, advise or procure
any purchasers, or intemling purchasers, to evade, elude, escape from or get around the
pro\"isions of the agreement bv suggestions of the consolidation of the ordei's of two or
more purchasers or in any way whatsoever ;

(f.) Thev and their agents, itc, shall not on any pretext consign goods covered by
the agreement, nor allow, or pay any commission to any person whomsoever, except to a
bona fide agent (who shall in no case be a dealer) previously named and declared to the
secretary-treasurer, nor sell nor invoice the said goods, except in the name of the manu-
facturer, or if bought by a member of the association from some other manufacturer for
the purpose of being re-sold then in the name of the member so re-selling the same ;

(/.) They, and their agents, &c., shall not, except as authorized bj' resolution of the
association either directlj' or indirectly, resort or have recourse to any scheme, or
subterfuge whatsoever, such as the giving of presents, or of discounts, or of reductions,
in the price of other goods, or the giving or promising of any kind of benefit, or
advantage, or otherwise, as an inducement or aid, in the making of present or future
.sales of goods ;

(ff.) Thev and their agents, Ac, will not directlj', or indiiectly, advise or notify their
lespective agents, travellers, emploj-ees, customers, or other persons whomsoever, of the
calling or holding of any special or other meeting of the association, or of any anticipated
fall or rise of prices thereat, and will not sell goods subject to a decline in price, or to be
delivered more than ninetj- days after the date of the order taken, but any goods not
shipped within the said ninety days shall only be shipped subject to, and be invoiced at,
tlie price ruling at the date of shipment with the exception of contracts for news print,
or periodical publications, for which contracts mar be taken for a longer period than
ninety days ;

(h.) All members will allow the secretary treasurer at all times access to their books,
piapers and correspondence, in order to verify any statements made, or investigate any
accusation brought ;

All the above agreements, promises, and obligations, and all rules, regulations,
prices, and discounts adopted by the association to be observed and fulfilled, and adhered
to, under a penalty of five hundred dollars (iS-SOO) payable to the association ; and all
other penalties imposed hereafter for any bieach, or violation of the agreement, to he
likewise paid when members are called upon to do so. Said payment to be secured by
the delivery, in the hands of the secretary treasurer, by each member of an accepted
cheque of five hundred dollars (.|500) to be deposited in the bank by the secreti-ry-
treasurer to the credit of the association. Interest on said deposit to be accounted for
and placed to the credit of the member having given said cheque.

Article IX. — On or before the l-5th of each month each of the members, and each
of their bookkeepers and «ach of their agents and travellers (all of whose names must be
declared to the secretary-treasurer), shall send to the secretary-treasurer a solemn declara
tion in the form A (annexed to the agreement) that he has not, directly or indirectly,
broken or violated, or permitted to be broken or violated, the terms of this agreement,
and is not aware of any such breach or violation. Penalties for failing to do so : $5 for
each day in default of each member, besides $0 for each day in default of each of his
book-keepers, travellers or agents, or book-keepers, travellers or agents of the agents. Such
penalties to be charged against the amount credited to such member in the books of the
association.

Article X. — Also on or before the 1.5th of each month, each member shall send to
the secretary-treasurer a statement in the form B, containing a summary of all sales

10 KOYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

made by and for such member for the previous month, with a solemn declaration of trutli.
Penalty for failing to do so : ^-5 for each day of default, to be charged against the
amount standing at the credit of such member.

Article XI. — The secretary-treasurer to have full powers as to inquiries considered
by him necessary to verify members' statements. Information to be held secret bv the
secretary -treasurer until he has reported to the association at a meeting. Anv refusal
to allow the secretary-treasurer to examine a member's books and papers subjects said
member to a penalty of not less than $50, and not more than §500. The secretary-
treasurer shall have the right to place one or more agents in the manufactory of any
member, when complaint is made of any breach oi- violation by such member, and it is
found necessary to check his goods. Said agent or agents to report to the secretary-
treasurer, and to be paid by him out of the funds of the association.

Akticle XII. — When any supposed breach or violation of agreement is repcirted to
the secretary -treasurer, or when the secretary -treasurer has discovered any such supposed
breach or violation, the accused member sliall be notified, and be given particulars of
the charge, and fifteen days thereafter he shall furnish to the secretary -treasurer all
possible written evidence in defence. The secretary -treasurer shall thereupon fully in-
vestigate the matter. He may take such other evidence as he sees fit, and mav require
from the accused member, his salesmen agents, or clerks, affidavits, or declarations
taken before a notary public, or justice of the peace, or commissioner, repelling the
charges as false and incorrect. The refusal or failure to furnish said affidavits to be
considered as positive proof of the truth of the charge. And if, after full investigation,
the secretary-treasurer finds the charge proven, he shall so declare in writing, giving
particulars and shall, in his discretion, fine the accused member not less than 850 nor
more than .^SOO, and he shaU deliver a copy of his decision to that member. Provided,
that an appeal shall lie to the association within ten days from said decision of the
secretary-treasurer. Provided also that upon discovery by the secretary-treasurer,
after conviction, that there has been a clerical error in any invoice sent out, he shall
not enforce the penalty but shall report the matter to the association for consideration
at the next quarterly meeting.

Article XIII. — All penalties against a member to be charged by the secretary-
treasurer against the sum of five hundred dollars deposited by such member.

Article XIV. — Whenever the deposit of iJSOO made bv each member has been
reduced by reason of any penalty having been imposed, or otherwise, the said member
shall, upon notice, pay a sufficient sum to make up the amount to the said sum of ^SOO.

Penalty for failure to do so within ten davs of such notice :— -So for each dav in
default, to be taken from the funds in hand still at his credit, and such member to be
considered as not in good standing.

Article XV. — All members enter into this agreement in honour bound to fulfil
its conditions, irrespective of any legal question or technicality.

Article XVI. — All penalties imposed and charged against members to be divided
quarterly by the secretary-treasurer amongst the other members in good standing.

Article XVII. — The secretary-treasurer, in addition to his other duties, to be
generally the manager and superintendent of the association. He shall see that all
statements and returns are duly made, and in the event of any deviation from the pro-
visions of the agreement, he shall forthwith impose the prescribed penalty, his decision
in the case of any such infraction of rules and pro\-isions being final and ^sdthout appeal.
He shall make the divisions of the penalties among the members according to Article
XV., and shall render an account of the business at the end of the year.

Article XVIII. — Salary of the secretary-treasurer to be $ per annum, to

include both hotel and travelling expenses, payable quarterly by the members in propor-
tion to the value of goods sold by each. His engagement to terminate on the disso-
lution of the association, he being paid pro rata to the date of such dissolution.

REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONER 11

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

And the members promise to hold the secretary-treasurer absoUitely indemnified
and harmless in respect of any moneys paid out by him by way of settlement or division
of any penalties, or forfeitures that may be exacted under this agreement.

The covenantors are the following paper manufacturing firms of Canada : —

1. W. Barber it Biothers, of the Town of Georgetown.

2. Alex. Buntin & Son, of the Town of Vallej-field.

3. The Canada Paper Company, Ltd., of the City of Montreal.

i. The Dominion Paper Company, Ltd., of the City of Montreal.

5. The E. B. Eddy Company, Ltd., of the City of Hull.

6. John Fisher & Sons, of the Town of Dundas.

7. J. Forde it Company, of Portneuf.

8. S. A. Lazier & Sons, of the City of Belleville.

9. The Laurentide Pulp Company, Ltd., of Grand Mfere.

10. The Lincoln Paper Mills Company, of the Town of Merritton.

11. Alexander Mc Arthur ct Co., of the City of Montreal.

12. Miller Brothers & Company, of the City of ^Montreal.

13. The Northumberland Paper and Electric Company, Ltd., of the Town of
Campbellford.

14. The Ottawa Paper Company, of the City of Ottawa.

15. The Riordan Paper Mills Company, of the Town of Merritton.

1 6. The Royal Paper Mills Company, of East Angus.

17. Reid, Craig & Co., of the City of Quebec.

18. The Rolland Paper Company, of the City of ^Montreal.

19. J. Stutt & Son, of West Flamboro.

20. The St. Croix Pulp & Paper Company, of the City of Halifax.

21. The Toronto Paper Manufacturing Company, of the Town of Cornwall.

22. The Trent River Company, of Frankfort.

23. C. W. Thompson, of the town of Newburg.

24. The Thompson Paper Company, of the Town of Newburg.

25. Taylor Brothers, of the City of Toronto.

26. J. C. Wilson & Co., of the City of Monti'eal, but the list of deposits, filed with
the evidence of Mr. Hardy, secretary-treasurer, and being Exhibit P-38, shows that the
twelve following firms only, have paid into the hands of the association the five hun-
dred dollars mentioned in the agreement, and have by so doing secured their member-
ship, namely : —

W. Barber & Brothers.

The Canada Paper Company.

The Dominion Paper Company.

The E. B. Eddy Company.

The Lincoln Paper Mills C<,>mpany.

A. McArthur ct Co.

The Riordan Paper Mills, Ltd.

The Rolland Paper Company.

The St. Croix Paper Company.

J. C. Wilson & Co.

The Consolidated Pulp and Paper Company.

J. Forde & Co.

The minutes of the association contain, among other proceedings not pertinent to
this inquiry, the following resolutions (jf the association, adopted at the different meet-
ings of its members : —

On the very day the agreement was signed it was resolved as follows : —

' That Mr. Hardy, secretary-treasurer, be directed to send the following telegram
to every paper manufacturer in Canada : ' By unanimous resolution of the paper makers
assembled here, I am instructed to request you to withdraw all prices on all papers, as
new prices throughout the whole list are now being decided upon. Please also so
advise all agents and travellers.'

12 ROYAL COMMISSIOX RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

At the same meeting certain pi'iees were temporarily adopted a.s to following tcrades
of paper : —

Rag brown wrapping, red brown, numbers one and two manilla, fibre, glazed hard-
ware, bag manilla, ribbed hosiery, rolled news, sheet news, book paper and lithographic
paper.

The next day, February 22, 1900, it was resolved: 'That the terms of sale shall be
three months, three per cent discount, payment thirty days from the date of shipment.'
Certain other prices and transpiortation charges to certain points were regulated at that
meeting.

Other meetings took place on March 1, 2 and 3, 1900, at which minimum prices

were finally decided upon and determined. Those relating to news print were fixed as

follows : —

In carload lots of twelve In two ton lots in j , »>, ,
tons in one delivery or one delivery or ^" ""*" '"^" '^^ °

shipment.

ion ior

Rolled news, per 100 lbs.,
Sheet news, "

§2.50
2.75

$2.75
3.00

$3.00
3.25

At the meeting of March 3, certain equalization, or mill points were chosen, namely,
ilontreal, London, Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa, Hull, Kingston, Brantford, Windsor,
Sarnia, Halifax, and St. John, N.B., freights being eL|ualized on those points.

At a subsequent meeting held on April 18, 1900, it was resolved to adopt and use,
from said date, a common form for all contracts for news print. All the prices and
conditions previously determined and approved are embodied in this form, and return
of, or allowance for, waste is strictly forbidden.

On January 10, 1901, it was resohed that prices on book, writing and lithographic
papers be no longer governed bv the association.

On February 5, 1901, prices were altered as to sheet news, and minimum fixed as
follows : —

$2.75 per 100 lbs. in car load lots of twelve tons in one delivery or shipment ;

$3.00 per 100 lbs. in any quantity less than car load.

And the following prices were adopted for extra number three news (between news
jirint and number three book, and being papei' not generally used by newspapers) : —

$3.25 per 100 lbs. in car load lots of twehe tons in one deli\ery oi' shipinent ;
$3.50 per 100 lbs. in two ton lots, in one delivery or shipment ;
$3.75 per 100 lbs. in less than two ton lots.

IX ROLLS.

$3.00 per 100 ll)s. in car load lots of twelve tons in one delivery or shipment ;
$3.25 per 100 lbs., in two ton lots, in one delivery or shipment ;
$3.50 per 100 lbs in less than two ton lots.

On March 7, 1901, Quebec, St. Catharines, Merritton, Newborough, Strathcona and
Chatham were added to the list of equalization points.

Finally, on May 10, 1901, the minimum prices of news print were reduced as
follows : —

In car load lots of twelve In two ton lots j , ^^ ^
tons in one delivery or- in one delivery »„„ i„f„

1 ■ . i_ ■ . toll IOlSi

shipment. or shipment.

Rolled news per 100 lbs.. $2.37i $2.62A $2.87i

(any quantity
Sheet news, " ... 2.63.^ 2.87i less than two

ton lots.)

REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONER I3

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Such was the history of the Paper iVUakers' Association of Canada, as contained in
their own books and minutes, when the present Commission began the inquiry ordered
by the Government.

The above facts and proceedings establish bej'ond a doubt the e.xistence of the
association ; they show its principal object to be, the regulation and maintenance of
specified prices for paper ; they reveal its organization, and rules, its complete power,
influence, and control over the paper manufacturers and dealers of the countrv, and
they indicate the true character of a combination still extant, and having at its disposal
a very powerful mechanism.

So the first question, ' Whether the alleged association, or combination, or agree-
ment, does exist in Canada,' must be answered in the affirmative : — There was and
there is an association formed among manufacturers of news and printing paper, of
Canada, for regulating, and maintaining specified prices of said article. The said manu-
facturers have entered into an agreement and the said agreement amounts to a combi-
nation.

II.— DOES SAID COMBINATION, RESULTING FROM THE AGREEMENT
OF THE ASSOCIATION, UNDULY PROMOTE THE ADVANTAGE OF
THE MANUFACTURERS AT THE EXPENSE OF THE CONSUMERS?

It became necessary, for the solution of this second and important question, to
ascertain what was the state of the market in Canada and in the L^nited States,
relatively to news print, previous to, at the time of and since the combination.

(A.) — State of the Market in Canada.

Owing to modern improvements in machinery, improved facilities for manufacturing
and lessening of expense of raw material, caused by the substitution of wood pulp for
rags, the market prices for news print were gradually reduced from 1896 to 1899.

Taking the e\'idence of Mr. Charles N. Robertson, manager of the «7b)/rreaZ Printing
Company, Ottawa, which is confirmed by other witnesses as to many figures given by
him, and it stands uncontradicted upon the main, the scale of constant!}' decreasing
prices on rolled news print per hundred pounds was as follows : —

1896 S-2 7.5

February, 1897 2 65

June, 1897 2 50

August, 1897 2 .35

August, 1898 : 2 .30

November, 1898 2 03 to .?2 10

November, 1899 2 03 to ^2 10

In December, 1899, for the first time in a long period, an advance or increase of
prices took place, and rolled news print was quoted at S2. 20, which price was maintained
throughout January, 1900, increasing to 62.25 in February, 1900, when the association
formed its combination and further raised the price minimum to -$2.50.

The higher but corresponding rates for sheet news also decreased from 1896 to
December, 1899, when a proportionate advance took place in December, 1899; was
maintained in January, and caused the price to be about .'52.50 in February, 1900, when
the association raised the minimum price for sheet news per hundred pounds to $2.75.
{See depositions of P. D. Ross, T. H. Preston, W. S. Dingman, Joseph Atkinson, S.
Stephenson, C. N. Robertson, J. R. Barber, John Macfarlane and W. D. Woodruff.)

Exceptional sales of rolled news per hundred pounds, however, appear to have been
made as late as December, 1899, and January, 1900, at 81.70, -$1.80, .§1.85 and .?2.15

14 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

(see evidence of L. J. Tarte), and exceptional contracts were entered into at prices
different from those then ruling in 1898 and 1899, e. g. the contracts secured by the
Montreal Star in May, 1899, at $1.90, and which are still in force. (See evidence of
Hugh Graham.) But these sales and contracts were, as already stated, quite exceptional
.and do not affect the truth of the statements that in general the ruling prices were at
the dates mentioned such as above stated.

So that it may be said that after a gradual and steady decline from 1896 to
December, 1899, the prices of news print had an upward tendency towards the end of
1899, and maintained it until February, 1900, when the ruling prices stood a.s follows; —

Boiled news, per 100 lbs $2 25

Sheet news " 2 50

Increase bj^ combination prices, 25 cents per 100 pounds on each of the two grades
of paper.

The association or combination prices then became the ruling prices in the market.
Every manufacturer or dealer submitted to the regulation imposed by the association,
and these ruling prices remained firm until the 10th of May, 1900, after the present
Commission was appointed, when the association decided to lower the prices to $2.37^
and $2.62i on each grade, respectively.

(B.) — State of the Market in the United States.

As in Canada, the rise in prices in the United States began at the end of the
year 1899. Contracts were entered into in New York in December of that year for
$2.30 (rolled news per 100 lbs.): in January, 1900, for .$2.55. More recent contracts in
the same year, 1900, were as follows: —

August $2 50

December 2 50

(although an exceptional sale in that month was for 82.15.)

In February, 1901, the price goes down to .$2.40, and in May of the same year the
ruling figure is §2.25. (See evidence of F. Squier and of J. H. Duffv.)

On the 30th of April, 1901, Mr. A. C. Scrimgeour, paper dealer, of Brooklyn, saw
Mr. Tarte, proprietor of La Patrie newspaper in Alontreal, and quoted him a price of
$1.85 per 100 lbs. free on board cars at American mill. With freight and duty added
the paper would cost Mr. Tarte .$2.48 in Montreal (two cents under the then Canadian
combination prices). The proposal was made with the object of making the Canadian
manufacturers understand that the American manufacturers could invade their territory
in Canada, as it had been reported that the Dominion manufacturers were discussing the
advisability of oft'ering among themselves a rebate of duty of six dollars per ton on every
ton of paper exported to Great Britain, which would enable them to make lower prices
and compete successfully with Americans in the British market. Still, at the price quoted
to Mr. Tarte, the American manufacturer would have made a profit. A similar proposal
was made in Toronto. At that time the same grade of paper would command .§2.25 in
the States, but there were sales to large consumers at .$2.00. Mr. Scrimgeour adds that
in the fall c>f 1890 and during 1900, his company was getting from $2.35 to $3.00 at the
mill, svith discount of three per cent at thirty days.

It must be remembered that the paper market in the United States was and is
largely controlled by the International Paper Company, which was incorporated in 1898,
has the ownership' of thirty-one mills, and furnishes 65 to 75 per cent of the whole supply
in the States. There is no agreed combination of prices there, but there is, as we see, a
combination of mills, very powerful and perhaps very dangerous to the interests of the
American consumers. Sucli a large company can practically regulate and maintain ruling
.prices at will, and defy the competition of small concerns quite unprepared for the fight
in the field of demand and sup]ily.

REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONER 15

■SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

(C.) — Enhancement of Pkices and othek Disadvantages to consumers due to

Combination.

We have alreadv seen that the association just after its formation enhanced th(^
prices then current and rulina; in Canada to at least twentv-five cents jiei' hundred
pounds on news print, sheet and roll.

Other disadvantages resulting to consumers from the regulations of the association
were as follows: —

Firstly. The period of credit, whith was generally four months, was shortened to
three months.

Secondly. The right to I'eturn waste or unused paper, which formerly formed a feature
of all contracts and sales, was denied. The evidence shows the difi'erence against the
consumers upon that score to be from five to fifteen cents per hundred pounds; average
of loss being ten cents.

Thirdly. The discrimination created by the agreement against certain consumers by
the creation of equalization points means the payment by those consumers of an additional
freight of ten to fifteen cents per hundred pounds, averaging twelve and a half cents.
The establishing of these points is explained by the members of the association as being
necessary to protect wholesale dealers who pui'chase from the manufacturers, and who
would not otherwise have any advantage over the consumers who buy also from the
manufacturers from other points where there are no such wholesale dealers. The conse-
quence is that the consumers who happen to live at those other points have to pay the
additional freight.

So, adding to the twenty-five cents increase in prices the ten cents for the loss of
the right to return waste, and the twelve and a half cents for the additional freight, we
have, as a result of the combination, a total increase of forty-seven and a half cents per
hundred pounds against consumers living at non-equalization points, and of thirty-five
cents per hundred pounds against consumers living at equalization points. There is also
the loss occasioned to all consumers of one month of the period of credit.

The evidence being to the efl'ect that after the first regulation of prices by the
association, there were no other prices ruling than the association prices, as far as
Canada is concerned, the state of the market remained unchanged under the associa-
tion's regulations, and it is safe to assume that the reduction of prices in May, 1901, by
the association, was only due to a better state of the paper trade, both as to the facilities
of demand and supply, and as to cost of production. The same reasons explain the same
Induction which took place in the States at the same time.

In the United States, ruling prices were certainly higher than in Canada in Febru-
ary, 1900, when the present combination was formed, the average price there, as we
have seen, being .'52..5-T at that time. With freight and dutj' added, the American
article would have cost .f3.18 to a Montreal buyer. But, as already remarked, the
American market was then controlled, as it still is, by one huge corporation, and the profits
and sales eiFected in that country must have been very large, since the cost of production
was about the same in the two countries, and Canadian manufacturers considered
that their trade, at the prices then iiuoted in Canada, although lower than American
prices, ' was in a good and healthy state.' It is not surprising then, if American dealers
or manufacturers would not approach Canadian consumei's with more favourable pro-
posals as to prices than those ruling on their own side of the line, except for the reasons
and under the circumstances divulged by Mr. Scrimgeour, and already referred to.

The comparison, therefore, between American and Canadian prices, at the date of
the combination, atibrd no safe criterion. Prices in the United States were practically
in the controlling power of one single monopolizing organizatiTjn, and were abnormally
high. Canadian prices were lower, but sucli as to satisfy the manufacturers in this
country, several of whom were then prepared to make new contracts, or to renew old
ones at the then ruling price in Canada, but were only prevented from doing so by the
agreement of the twenty-first of February, 1900. {See evidence of P. D. Ross, T. H.
Preston, W. S. Dingman, Joseph Atkinson, S. Stephenson, C. !!Sr. Robertson, John Mac-
farlane, W. D. Woodruff, W. D. Gillean, Hugh Graham and L. J. Tarte).

16 ROYAL COMMISSION HE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The temporary advance in prices in the United States is attributed bv tlie Ameri-
can witnesses to the t)utbreak of the wars, which caused the newspaper circulation, and
consequently consumption and demand of paper, to increase largely. Pulp was then
found to be short, price of sulphur went uji, and all these causes united produced the
rise in prices, which culminated in January or February, 1900, and collapsed in 1901.

In Canada, the same temporary advance of December, 1899, and January and
February, 1900, is explained on the part of the manufacturers by the increase in the
cost of manufactured sulphur, which is an essential part of sulphite pulp, being then
shoil, or ditiicult to obtain on account of being contraband of war, and wood pulp being
also short, by reason of the poorness of the output of logs, which were del; ved for
climatic causes, at least twelve months, before reaching the manufactory, and also by the
increase in the cost of other raw material. Taking for granted that these allegations
are true, the results of such increase in the cost of manufacture were naturally felt in
the then free market, and produced the advance in price which had reached its climax
in February, 1900, before the combination was formed. The largest manufacturers,
those who made their own pulp, were content with these prices, as naturally enhanced
and ruling before the combination. Others, who had to buy their pulp, had less to
rejoice in these prices, because their own cost of production was greater. But certain
it is, that news print could then be manufactured and sold with sutficient profit, by
those who had all the necessary plant, at the prices which have been indicated as the
ruling prices before the formation of the combination. And that was the result of free
competition and free prices, by which the public is always the gainer. The combination
effaced free prices, and substituted regulation and higher rates, to the general advantage
of all the manufacturers, although favouring more especially those who could not manu-
facture pulp, but such a combination could not but be otherwise than at the expense of
the consumers, who lost thereby the benefit of the former free and competitive trade.

(D). — Were Such Enhancement of Prices and Other Disadvantages to Consumers
Undue, Unreasonable, or Oppressive ?

The word ' unduly ' is the expression used in section 10 of chapter 16 of 60-(51
Victoria (The Customs Tarifi', 1897), under which the present commission was appointed.

To be undue, the enhancement of prices must be unreasonable, excessive or oppres-
sive to consumers, or to a certain class of consumers.

In the preceding sections of my report, I have indicated what I consider, in the
light of the evidence taken before me, as being the true nature and exact extent of the
changes brought by the association as regards the consumers.

The enhancement of prices as originally made bv the association was certainly not
justified by the facts and by the state of the market at the time.

That conclusion being reached, it remains to decide whether there is anything
undue, 'unreasonable, excessive or oppressive in the act complained of.

In such cases the injury to the public is the controlling consideration. Monopolies
are liable to be oppressive, and hence are deemed to be hostile to the public good. Com-
binations, who have the control of the trade their members are engaged in, and who
have that control to such an extent as to enable them to dictate prices and to leave no
real field of competition open to others, are real monopolies. I am afraid the combin-
ation now attacked falls under these conditions.

A combination may be quite legal and harmless in its inception, and primary
objects, e. g., if to regulate and maintain fair prices. But it may become illegal and
oppressive in its subsequent operations, e. g., by the imposition of unfair and unreason-
able prices. The moment the association attempts to dictate unjust and oppressive
terms and rates, with full controlling powers of enforcement and means at its disposal,
law and public jiolicv must intervene and stop such dangerous dictation. The declared
object of the Paper Makers' Association of Canada was the regulation and maintenance
of ' fair prices of paper.' That object was quite innocent in itself, but the character
of the association was to be judged according to its subsequent acts, determining and
regulating said prices under the stringent rules and heavy penalties it had previously

REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONER 17

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

enacted. The assoeiation has almost immediately after its formation determined and fixed
prices which are found to be unfair and detrimental to consumers and public good, to
the extent hereinabo\e indicated. The result was, the complaint of The Canadian Press
Association and the action taken by the Government under the statute. I am afi-aid
that action was well taken.

The reduction made in the minimum prices of the association in May, 1901, after
the appointment of this Commission cannot afl'ect the conclusions of this report :
Firstly, because it was subsequent to said appointment of Commission ; secondh"-,
because the association controlling the paper trade are presumed, after their past acts,
to have made said reduction upon the same unreasonable basis as was the foundation of
their first resolution, taking into account the better state of the trade at the time of the
reduction : thirdly, because the same association still control prices and can still enforce
present and future regulations of a dangerous nature.

The present issue not being before the courts as a criminal prosecution, or as a civil
action, the undersigned has only to report to the Government of Canada the facts proved
at the inquiry under the Commission issued, and cannot offer any suggestion as to what
action should be taken under subsection 3 of section IS of the ' Customs Tariff, 1897.'

The Go\ernment Ijefore taking any action upon this report has also to judge
ultimately whether the enhancement of pi'iees reported by the undersigned is such as to
seriously affect the consumers and the public in the measure contemplated by the statute.

The undersigned can only report and does report, that in his opinion, and taking
the whole evidence into consideration, the said enhancement of prices and other
disadvantages to consumers caused by the combination whose existence is proved,
admitted and reported, are to the extent already indicated undue, unreasonable, and
oppressive, and unduly promote t« the same extent the advantage of the paper manu-
facturers of Canada, at the expense of the consumers.

III.^LEGAL ASPECT OF THE QUESTION.

Tlie learned counsel for the manufacturers lias laid stress upon the legal principles
involved in this inquiry, and has cited to the Commissioner the Criminal Code of
Canada, the opinions of well known authorities on combinations, and the decisions of
several courts of law.

This Commission was issued under an Oi'der in Council, based upon section 18 of
the Customs Tariff, 1897, which is as follows :

' Wlienever the Governor in Council has reason to believe that with regard to any
article of commerce there exists any trust, combination, association or agreement of any
kind among manufacturers of such article, or dealers therein, to undulv enhance the
price of such article, or in any other way to unduly promote the advantage of the
manufacturers or dealers at the expense of the consumers, the Governor in Council may
commission oj- empower any Judge of the Supreme Court or Exchequer Court of Canada,
or of any Superior Court in any province of Canada, to inquire in a summary wav into
and report to the Governor in Council whether such trust, combination, association or
agreement exists.

' 2. The judge may compel the attendance of witnesses and examine them under
oath, and require the production of. books and papers, and shall have such other
necessary powers as are conferred upon him by the Governor in Council for the purposes
of such inquiry.

' 3. If the judge reports that such trust, combination, association or agreement
exists, and if it appears to the Governor in Council that such disadvantage to the
consumers is facilitated by the duties of customs imposed on a like article, when imported,
then the Governor in Council shall place such article on the free list, or so reduce the
duty on it as to give to the public tlie benefit of reasonable competition in such article.'

That section of the statute has been enacted quite irrespective of the provisions of
the Criminal Code, or of common civil law, and does not contemplate as a neces.sary
53—2

18 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

condition of the proposed inquiry the existence of facts which \vould engender a
criminal prosecution or give rise to a civil action.

Pubhc interest alone, irrespective of the criminal guilt or civil responsibility of the
parties to a combination, dictated the enactment, and parliament placed into the hands
of the government the power to ascertain certain facts by Roj'al Conmiission, .so that
future action might be taken upon the report of the inquiry if the facts were true.

But even if the report of this Commission depended upon the legality, or illegality
of the combination, I would still be inclined to think that the manufacturers, parties to
the combination, were liable both criminally and civilly by reason of the facts divulged
in this inquirv. if the enhancement of prices was really undue, unreasonable and
oppressive.

The criminal law as to combinations is to be found in section 520 of the Criminal
Code as amended by 63-64 Victoria, chapter 46, which declares guilty of an indictable
oflence. and liable to a certain penalty, every person or corporation wln) conspires, com-
bines, agrees, or arranges with any other person, or with any railway, steamship, steam-
boat, or transport company to (among other things) ' restrain or injure trade or cummerce
. in relation to any ai'ticle or commodity which may be a subject of trade or commerce, or
to unduly prevent, limit or lessen the manufacture or production of any such article or
commodity, or to unreasonably enhance the price thereof.' By the amendment made by
63-64 Victoria, cap. 46, the word ' illegally,' which preceded the word ' conspires ' in the
original section 520, was left out. That word was useless and added nothing to the
offence, wliich was sutiiciently described by the whole section, combination being
in law the co-operation of two or more persons to do something which is con-
trary to law, or to public policy. Mere co-operation is no offence, except if formed for an
illegal or oppressive act, and here the illegal or oppressive act intended by the co-oper-
ators is sufficiently described in the enactment itself. The offence of illegal combination
is sufficiently alleged if the end proposed is, by reason of the power of combination, par-
ticularly dangerous to the public interests, or injurious to some persons as the act of
unreasonably enhancing the price of an article of trade. The Customs Tariff', in section
18, uses the word ' unduly,' whereas section 520 of the Criminal Code has the word
' unreasonably.' I see no difference in those two words as to their signification. They
both mean an oppressive act, contrary to public policy. The act may not be criminal
in itself, that is, in the mere moral sense, but it is criminal because committed by way
of a combination, and because the law makes it unlawful if committed in that way.

In civil law the same principles apply and the definition of illegal combinations or
conspiracies in criminal law is not different from that used in a purely civil sense.

So that the illegality of the present combination would apjiear both by the express
enactment of the customs tariff', which forbids the act complained of and authorizes
direct government action, if it is committed, and by section 520 of the Criminal Code,
to say nothing of common law on the matter.

See I. Eddy on Combinations, sections 188 and following, and sections 218, 223,
225, 226, 232, 238, 248, 275, 287, 288, 332, 334, 340, 364 and following.

In the cases cited by the learned counsel for the manufacturers, the courts did not
affirm other principles than those hereinabove stated. These were special cases where
the judges did not find the necessary element of illegal combination, which is the
combining for objects unlawful, or oppressive or immoral.

The whole humbly submitted.

Montreal, November 15, 1901.

(Signed), HENRI T TASCHEREAU,

Gommissioner

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

ORDER IN COUNCIL REDUCING DUTY ON NEWS PRINTING PAPER

£.\TRACT from a Report of the Committee of the Honourahle the Privy Council,
approved by His Excellency ojt the 11th Fehruary, 1902.

The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a report,
hereto annexed, dated 10th February, 1902, from the Minister of Finance, with
reference to a combination among Canadian Paper Manufacturers.

The Committee concurring in the recommendations of the Minister of Finance
therein made, submit the same for His Excellency's approval.

(Sgd.) JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Finance Departjient, Ottawa, Canada, February 10, 1002.

To His Excellency,

The Governor General in Council :

The undersigned has the honour to report that by section 18 of chapter 16 of the
Statutes of 1897, 'Customs Tariff, 1897,' it is enacted as follows :

'18. Whenever the Governor in Council has reason to believe that with regard
to any article of conunerce there exists any trust, combination, association or agree-
ment of any kind among manufacturers of such article or dealers therein to unduly
enhance the price of such article or iu any other way to unduly iiromote the advantage
of the manufacturers or dealers at the expense of the consumers, the Governor in
Council may commission or empower any judge of the Supreme Court or Exchequer
Court of Canada, or in any Superior Court in any Province of Canada to inquire in
a summary way into and report to the Governor in Council whether such trust, com-
bination, association or agreement exists.

'2. The Judge may compel the attendance of witnesses and examine them under
oath and require the production of books and papers, and shall have such other
necessary powers as are conferred upon him by the Governor in Council for the pur-
poses of such inquiry.

'3. If the Judge reports that such trust, combination, association or agreement
exists, and if it appears to the Governor in Council that such disadvantage to the
consumers is facilitated by the duties of customs imposed on a like article, when im-
ported, then the Governor in Council shall place such article on the free list, or so
reduce the duty on it as to give the public the benefit of reasonable competition in
8ueh article.'

The undersigned has further to report that a communication under date the 10th
April, 1901, was addressed to him by A. G. F. Maedonald. President, and John A.
Cooper, Secretary-Treasurer of the Canadian Press Association, stating that at the
recent annual meeting of the Press Association, the following resolution passed at a
meeting of the Association on the 18th May, 1900, was reaffirmed and submitted to the
"undersigned for his consideration and the consideration of the Government, viz : —
53—2*

■20 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

'That the Executive of the Canadian Press Association believe that a combine
now exists among Canadian Paper Manufacturers, the effect of which is to unduly
increase the price of news and printing paper contrary to section 18 of the Customs
Tariff Act of 1897. That this Executive is prepared to submit witnesses and evidence
in support of the statement and we, therefore, respectfully ask that the Government
order an investigation under section 18 and subsections of the Customs Tariii Act of
1897, with a view to ameliorating the existing conditions.'

The undersigned has further to report that he received a numerous deputation
from the said Canadian Press Association, who urged the necessity of an inquiry under
the provisions of the section above quoted, and from the statements in the said com-
munication of 10th April, 1901, and from the representations made by the said depu-
tation he was satisfied there was reasonable ground for such an inquiry as was con-
templated by the statute, and accordingly on the 22nd April, 1901, in a report to His
Excellency the Governor General in Council, he recommended that the Governor
General in Council be pleased to declare that the Governor in Council has reason to
believe that with regard to news and printing paper there exists a trust, combination,
association or agreement among manufacturers of such paper or dealers therein, to
unduly enhance the price of such paper, or to unduly promote the advantage of the
manufacturers or dealers at the expense of the consumers, and that the Governor in
Council be further pleased to commission and empower the Honourable Henri Thomas
Taschereau, of the City of Montreal, one of the judges of the Superior Court of the
Province of Quebec, to inquire into and to report to His Excellency in Council, under
and in accordance with the provisions of section 18 of chapter 16 of the statutes of
1897, ' The Customs Tariff, 1897,' whether any such trust, combination, association
or agreement exists, and to confer upon the said Honourable Henri Thomas Taschereau
all the powers that may be necessary for the purpose of such inquiry, which report and
recommendations were submitted for His Excellency's approval, and were approved by
His Excellency on the 25th April, 1901.

The undersigned has further to report that the Honourable Judge Taschereau has
made a report in the matter, dated November 15, 1901, in which he states that a very
full investigation was held in Montreal, Toronto and New York, during which he had
the able assistance of eminent counsel, representing the complaining parties and the
paper manufacturers, and he transmitted with his report the depositions, taken in short-
hand, of a large number of witnesses examined on either side, the exhibits filed in the
course of the inquiry and the arguments of counsel. The Commissioner then goes on
to state that the scope of the investigation, by the words of the statute and of the
Commission, was two-fold, and the two questions submitted were : —

First. — Whether the alleged association, or combination, or agreement does exist
in Canada.

Second. — ^If so, whether it is such as to unduly enhance the price of news and
printing paper, or in any other way to unduly promote the advantage of the manufac-
turers or dealers, at the expense of the consumers.

The Commissioner reports that the first question must be answered in the affirma-
tive : There was and there is an association formed among manufacturers of news
and printing paper, of Canada, for regulating and maintaining specified prices of said
article. The said manufacturers have entered into an agreement and the said agree-
ment amounts to a combination.

The Commissioner further finds that the Association just after its formation en-
hanced the prices then current and ruling in Canada to at least 25 cents per hundred
pounds on news print, sheet and roll, and that there were other disadvantages resulting
to consumers from the reg-ulations of the Association, namely : —

Pirst. — The shortening of the period of credit from four months to three months ;

Secondly. — The denial of the right to return waste or unused paper, an average
loss of 10 cents per hundred pounds ;

ORDEli IN COUNCIL 21

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Thirdly. — The discrimination created by the agreement against certain consumers
by the creation of equalization points, meaning the payment by these consumers of an
additional freight of 12J cents per hundred pounds on the average, making a total
increase of 47^ cents per hundred pounds against consumers living at non-equaliza-
tion points, aiid of 35 cents per hundred pounds against consumers living at equaliza-
tion points, in addition to the loss occasioned to all consumers of one month of the
period of credit.

The Commissioner further states that the enhancement of prices as originally
made by the Association was certainly not justified by the facts and by the state of
the market at the time, and he reports that in his opinion and taking the whole evi-
dence into consideration, the said enhancement of prices and other disadvantages to
consumers caused by the Association whose existence is proved, admitted and reported,
are to the extent indicated in his report undue, unreasonable and oppressive, and un-
duly promote to the same extent the advantage of the Paper Manufacturers of Canada
at the expense of the consumers.

On the legal aspect of the question the Commissioner states that the illegality of
the present combination would appear both by the express enactment of tlie Customs
tariff, which forbids the act complained of and authorizes direct Government action,
if it is committed, and by section 520 of the Criminal Code, to say nothing of common
law in the matter.

The undersigned, in view of the above report of the Commissioner, is of opinion
that the disadvantage to the consumers is facilitated by the customs duty of 25 per cent
ad valorem imposed by item 139 of the Customs Tariff, 1897, upon printing papsr im-
ported into Canada.

The undersigned has, therefore, the honour to recommend that, under the pro-
visions of subsection 3 of section 18 of chapter 16 of the statutes of 1897, ' The Cus-
toms Tariil, 1897,' Tour Excellency in Council be pleased to reduce the Customs
duty on news printing paper in sheets and rolls, including all printing paper valued at
not more than two and one-quarter cents per pound, from twenty-five percentum ad
valorem, to fifteen percentum ad valorem.

Eespectfully submitted,

(Sgd.) W. S. FIELDING,

Minister of Finance.

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53 A. 1902

EVIDENCE

TAKEN BEFORE

THE ROYAL COMMISSION

IN RE

THE ALLEGED COMBINATION OF PAPER .MANUFACTURERS

OR DEALERS

EVIDENCE TAKEN IN MONTREAL, 28th MAY, 1901.

Montreal, 28th May, 1901.

PHILIl' DANSKI.V ROSS,

Examined hy Mr. King, K.C.. represent ing the Press Association:

Q. As you said, Mr. Ross, you reside in the City of Ottawa, and I understand you
are president of a printing company there ? — A. President of the Journal Printing
Company.

Q. Have you had any transactions with the Eddy Paper Company, at Ottawa, with
respect to the matter which has been complained of here ? — A. Yes.

Q. Just tell us what these transactions were ? — A. We had a contract with the
Eddy Paper Company, which e-xjiired some time in January or February last ; after
its expiry we were negotiating with the company for a renewal of the contract. The
contract we had with them was at tlie rate of two dollars and four cents ($2.0-1) per
hundred (100) pounds. They notified us on the expiry of the contract that there
would be an increase in the price, and their agent, Mr. Hall, stated that the increase
would be probably ten per cent. (10 %). We considered that ofEer for a time, and
then, I think in the first week of February

Q. Last ? — A. February of nineteen hundred. This contract I refer to expired in
February, nineteen hundred. They notified us that the price — they cancelled their
offer of an increase of ten per cent and notified us that the price would be two dollars
and fifty cents ($2.50) per hundred pounds. We claimed that we had an option of
renewal of the contract at two dollars and twenty-four ($2.24) cents, or an increase of

24 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1£02

ten per cent (10 %) — two dollars and twenty-five cents ($2.25). And in the
course of the discussion regarding that, we called upon Mr. Eddy, president of the
E. B. Eddy Paper Company. Mr. Eddy informed me that an association had heen
formed by the majority of the Canadian paper makers, who had decided that the price
of paper was to be two dollars and fifty cents ($2.50) per hundred pounds, under the
conditions on which we had been receiving at the time from them previously. I
argued that we had an option with them for the renewal at a lower price. He said he
was not at liberty to concede that option, and in the course of the talk about that, he
said he was bound hard and fast by the regulations of the Canadian Paper Makers'
Association ; that he was bound by a penalty not to infringe the terms of the agree-
ment with the other paper makers, and that he was obliged by his agreement to
exhibit to the Association, if required, all contracts, papers and documents in connec-
tion with it for examination by the executive of the Paper Makers' Association.

In consequence of that conversation we did make a contract with the Eddy Paper
Company, or at least, we continued to take paper from them at two dollars and fifty
cents. I do not remember whether we had a contract or not. Shortly afterwards the
Eddy Company was burnt down, and that terminated the relations with them for a
time.

Q. So that in effect what you have said, Mr. Eoss, is that you were informed by
Mr. Eddy that there was an Association known as the Paper Makers' Association, and
that their firm was a member of that association ? — A. Yes. There is one statement
I would like to add also. During the course of these negotiations we applied to other
isaper mills for quotations for paper, and we received within a few days afterwards a
letter from the Eddy Company, in which they stated that they had learned from the
Paper Makers' Association that we had applied elsewhere for quotations for paper.

Q. Now, having told us what Mr. Eddy said, have you got that information in effect
from other persons representing themselves as agents for the paper makers ? — A. Tes.
As I say, our relations with the Eddy Comjiany terminated in consequence of the fire
which destroyed their establishment. Later on we had dealings with other paper
firms.

Q. You refer to some letters. As I understand, these letters show that the Eddy
Company was controlled

Mr. White, K.C, objects to this question.

Mr. King. — Mr. Ross, you better produce the letters. There are three letters. One
is the fifth of March, nineteen hundred :

'Messrs. The Journal Printing Company,
' Ottawa.

' Dear Sirs, — Inclosed please find specifications for paper shipped you on the
20th ultimo and the 3rd instant, amounting to five thousand and six (5,006) and four
thousand nine hundred and sixty-four pounds (4,964), for which we will send you
invoice so soon as the price and terms fixed upon by the Canadian Paper Makers'
Association have been advised to us for this paper product, but you may be sure that
not only will you have as low prices, but the best attention, as prompt delivery, and
the most favourable terms and discounts going, for we are in this as in all other mat-
ters, always with pleasure at your service, and only regret that you did not take
advantage of the opportunity offered on a rising market by contracting for your
requirements over the year with

Yours truly,

' THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Ltd.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 1, dated March fifth, one thousand nine
hundred.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 25

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Then we produce another letter of the tenth of March, one thousand nine hundred,
from the same company, signed by Mr. Rowley, secretary-treasurer, in which he
writes : —

' Messrs. The Journal Printing Company,
'Ottawa.

Dear Sirs^ — Enclosed please find invoice and specifications for shipments of roll
news to you under date of twenty-eighth February, third, sixth and ninth instant,
weighing in all eighteen thousand seven hundred and eighty pounds (18,780 lbs.)
which, subject if you please to the approval and confirmation by the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada, or otherwise, to necessary alteration and advance in price,
we have invoiced at two dollars and fifty cents, and beg leave to say that as the uni-
form quantity price for roll news as fixed by the Canadian Paper Makers' Association,
is : — Two dollars and fifty cents for carloads ; two dollars and seventy-five cents for
two ton and up lots ; three dollars for less than two ton lots, with an advance of
twenty-five cents per hundred for similar quantities of ream news, and a further
advance or extra charge for frames on any framed news. We have invoiced you this
lot at the minimum price in effect for the maximum quantity, and if you please, to
confirmation of our action in this connection on your behalf as stated above, and have
to add that if you are inclined to do so, we are ready to enter into a contract with you
at current prices although the market is steadily advancing, for your requirements
over the year nineteen hundred, and to say that if you will name a day and hour when
we may call upon you, we will with pleasure do so, meanwhile remaining

' Tours truly,

' THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited.'

Then there is a P.S. added :

' This will serve to confirm the conversation had with you, and to acknowledge
your letter of the seventh.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 2.

By Mr. King, K.C.:
Q. — Have you a copy of the letter of the seventh, Mr. Ross ? — A. No, sir.

By Mr. White. E.C.:
Q. — Could not you produce that letter ? — A. Yes, I think I could produce that.

Mr. King. — On the thirteenth of March, nineteen hundred there is another letter
from the same company, signed by the secretary-treasurer, to the Journal Printing
Company, Ottawa :

' Dear Sirs, — Answering your favour of the twelfth instant, unless and until you
hear from us to the contrary we are willing to continue to deliver paper to you as at
present at the present carload price of two dollars and fifty cents per one hundred
pounds on the distinct understanding which we beg leave here to reiterate, that if the
Canadian Paper Makers' Association rules contrary to this, you will take the paper
from us in carload lots, to obtain the carload price, or in two ton and up lots to obtain
the two ton and up price, or in smaller quantities at the then two ton price, your quan-
tity, which shall be our pleasure in the matter.

' If you wish to make a contract now for the next six months, say to first of Sep-
tember, nineteen hundred at two dollars and fifty cents less three per cent, thirty days,
we will conclude such at once, subject to Canadian Paper Makers' Association ruling

26 ItOYAL COMMISt^IOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

as above and at the end of the six months review and revise the contract and give
you benefit of any decline that may rule or charge you any advance that may then be in
order.

' Yours truly,

' THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited.'
The above letter is produced as Exhibit P — 3.

Mr. KiXG, K.C. — Now, there are two letters of the seventh and twelfth which
connect that correspondence.

Q. When you were dissatisfied, as I understand you were, with the prices and
conditions that were quoted above by the Eddy Paper Company, did you apply to other
manufacturers ? — A. We did.

Q. And in reply you got one of these letters whicli has been produced ? — A. No,
we got another letter.

Q. Have you got that ? — A. No, I mislaid it ; it has been mislaid in our office.

Q. Do you know who it was from ? — A. Signed by Mr. Kowley, secretary-trea-
surer of the company.
Q. Do you remember what date is was ? — A. No, I do not.

Mr King, K.C. — Well, your Lordship, my learned friend who is acting for the Eddy
Company might produce any letters relating to tliis matter.

Mr. White, K.C. — I don't think there is any objection to producing the cor-
respondence.

By Mr. King, K.C, to ]Vitness :

Q. What was the conclusion you drew from these letters and from your conversa-
tion with Mr. Eddy ? — A. From the fact that they had offered, and it was not con-
tested on either side, to renew our contract at a certain increase lower than the com-
bine price within two weeks of the time the combine was formed, as I understand, I
drew the conclusion that the combine advanced the prices beyond what was necessary
owing to the state of the market ; then they ofi'ered us paper at an advance of ten per
cent on our former contract, which would have made the price two dollars and twenty-
five cents, and then, in a couple of weeks later, cancelled that order and charged us
two dollars and fifty cents, and stated we were obliged to pay that by the Paper
Makers' Association. My inference was, that the price had gone up, not owing to the
state of the market, for I do not think they would have offered us that price unless
the market allowed them to offer that, and in two weeks they offered it at two dollars
and fifty cents.

Q. Did you regard that as unduly enhancing the price ? — A. Yes.

Q. Had you an interview with Mr. Eddy and Mr. Rowley, the secretary-treasurer
in March, nineteen hundred, do you remember ? — A. Yes. I think I stated that before,
but the date must have been March, the first week in March. It is fixed by one of these
letters. At my interview with Mr. Eddy, Mr. Rowley was present most of the time.

Q. What did they tell you then as a member of the Paper Makers' Association ? —
A. I only had the one interview.

Q. Have you told iis all that took place at that interview ? — A. I think I have
told you all.

Q. Was there anything said about contracts, as to exhibiting contracts to the
association ? — A. Mr. Eddy told me that he had to submit these contracts, if required,
to the executive of the Paper Makers' Association.

Q. Contracts for what ? — A. Paper.

Q. News print, is that the term ? — A. Yes.

Q. I think you also told us the company was subject to penalty for breach of this
agreement regarding prices and conditions ? — A. That is what he stated.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 2T

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Do you remember of seeing a public nniiouiicoment tbat the Paper Makers'
Association had been formed '( — A. I did.

Q. When was that, do you remember ? — A. I saw it in the February issue of the
Canadian Printer and Publisher.

Q. That is, in February, nineteen hundred ? — A. Yes.

Q. And was it prior to that time that the Eddy Company had offered you paper at
the reduced rate, and after that that the price was increased, as you told us ? — A. That
was about the time.

Q. And then, as I understand, the price was made two dollars and fifty cents per
hundred pounds ? — A. Yes, per hundred pounds.

Q. Prior to that it had been two dollars and ten cents ? — A. Yes, less three per
cent for cash.

Q. And then, I think you have already mentioned that Mr. Eddy told you that
was the price fixed by the Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. Now, in the month of October or November, nineteen hundred, did the agent
of any other company call upon you ? — A. Yes, the agent of the Laurentide Pulp
Company called upon us.

Q. Do you remember his name ? — A. Mr. Gascoigne.

Q. What took place with him ? — A. I am not able to say personally what took
place with him, because I did not see him ; my information is from a person in our
company.

Q. What is his name ? — A. Mr. Robertson.

Q. He could tell us, of course ? — A. Mr. Robertson coidd tell you.

Q. As to what took place with him you cannot make any statement because you
have no personal knowledge ? — A. Of course, Mr. Robertson informed me, as part of
our business.

Mr. White, K.C, objects to this evidence.

Mr. King, K.C. — Mr. Robertson will give us that himself.

Bi/ Mr. King, K.C:

Q. However, you know, I suppose, as president of the company, that there was an
offer made by Mr. Gascoigne ? — A. Yes, as president of the company, I was informed
that Mr. Gascoigne

Mr. White, K.C, objects to this evidence.

ilr. KiNii,, K.C. — I do not know that it is a matter of great importance. Mr. Rob-
ertson can give the particulars, and we won't go into it further. .

Q. You know there was an offer made by the Laurentide Pulp Company ? — A.
Yes.

Q. Now, you endeavoured, of course, to get your paper, as I imderstand, at a
lower price ? — A. Yes.

Q. And what was the result of this combine, if you like to call it so, which had
been formed at that time as you understood, from these various parties, what was the
result to your company ? — A. The result, I take it is, we were paying an increased
rate for paper.

Q. You were obliged to buy at higher prices ? — A. Yes.

Q. Now, in the month of January last, what was the price fixed by the Paper
Makers' Association for news print ?

Mr. WiUTi",. K.C. — You are speaking of nineteen hundred aud'oue now ?

Mr. King, K.C— Yes.

28 liOTAL COMMISSION HE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
By Mr. Eing,K.C.:

Q. What was the price fixed, do you rememher, Mr. Koss ? — A. Two dollars and

fifty cents per hundred pounds.

Q. Did you make any inquiries as to whether you could procure the same kind
of paper, the same class of paper, at a cheaper rate elsewhere ? — A. I did.

Q. Where did you inquire ? — A. I wrote to a number of papers in New York
State, asking them at what price they were being supplied with paper.

Q. And you got replies from them ? — A. I received replies from eight papers.

Q. Have you the replies here ? — A. No, I have not.

Q. Have you got them at the office ? — A. I have them, but I would not like to
exhibit them, because they were sometimes confidential. I would be pleased to let the
Judge see them.

Q. With your undertaking to produce these and hand them to His Lordship—
you say there were seven or eight papers answered you ? — A. Seven or ei,a:lit.

Q. How did the price compare as with the prices that the Paper Makers' Asso-
ciation and their friends wanted to charge ? — A. The majority of the prices were
lower.

Q. Well, were these papers that you wrote to, these newspapers, and publishers
that you wrote to, papers about the same standing as your own ? — A. Yes, I picked
otit as far as possible, papers of about the same circulation as the Journal,

Q. Do you remember, speaking from memory, and subject, of course, to verifica-
tion, by the letters, do you remember the prices that were quoted by any of these
publishers ? — A. Yes, I think I can give you them all.

Q. If you can give us them, it would be all right ? — A. Two papers, I think,
were quoted at two dollars and sixty-five cents per hundred pounds ; one paper was
quoted at two dollars and sixty cents ; the other papers — four or five, were lower than
the Canadian combine prices. One was at two dollars and forty cents, one at two
dollars and twenty-five cents, one at two dollars and fifteen cents, and one at two
dollars.

Q. Per hundred pounds ? — A. Yes.

Q. So that according to your information, these figures would show that at least
four out of seven papers of New York State paid less for paper than the price fixed
in Canada by the Paper Makers' Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was in New York State ?— A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember the names of any other agents of paper companies who
called upon you, quoting these advanced prices, or making any reference to this
agreement, or alleged combine. You have given us Mr. Gascoigne ; you have told
us about Mr. Eddy and Mr. Eowley ? — A. I had a conversation with ]\Ir. Alger, the
managing director of the Laurentide Pulp Company.

Q. Did he give you any information in the same line ? — A. We were talking
contract and he simply made a remark during the conversation that his price must be
two dollars and fifty cents, which was the price of the Paper Makers' Association.

Q. His price must be two dollars and fifty cents, that being the price of the
Paper Makers' Association ? — A. Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. ]Vhite, K.C., representing the Paper Makers'
Association :

Q. Mr. Eoss, you are a member of the Canadian Press Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. An oiScer ? — A. No, not at present.

Q. Have you been an officer ? — A. Yes, some years ago, I was vice-president.

Q. You have taken an active part, I understand, in the negotiations and pro-
ceedings which led up to this Commission ? — A. Well, I have promoted an inquiry as
far as possible.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 29

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Were you the mover of the resolution at the meeting of the Association which
was held ? — A. No, I was not present.

Q. Is there anything in writing ; have you put any statement in writing making
other specific charges than those you have mentioned, before any public body, or
before the government, for instance ? — A. No, I did not.

Q. Are you aware of any such statements being made, any other statements being
made than those you have referred to ?

Witness. — By myself ?

Q. Yes, or by the Association ; I am speaking now of the Press Association ?

Mr. King, K.C— With respect to what ?

Mr. White, K.C. — The matter in question ?

A. All I am aware of was the last annual meeting this year ; they forwarded a
complaint to the Government.

Q. Can you give us any further particulars with regard to these matters that you
have mentioned as having emanated from the Press Association to the effect that they
lay before the Government, for instance, at the meeting at which you were present ? —
A. I can give you nothing of the information at the meeting with Mr. Fielding.

Q. Do you know of any affidavits as having been presented to the Government ? — •
A. I am not aware of any having been presented to the Government.

Q. What requests accompanied the statements made by the Press Association ;
what was the object of the deputation beyond the present inquiry ? — A. I think the
object of the deputation is to secure the abolition of the Customs duty, and we hope
to get in cheaper paper from the other side.

Q. From the United States ? — A. Yes, or from England. One of our members
stated we could get cheaper paper from England, made out of Canadian pulp.

Q. Now, when was that contract which expired in January made ? — A. It was
made, I think, about a year previously. It was a contract for one year.

Q. Had you been contracting before that ? — A. Yes, for several years.

Q. At what prices ? — A. I would not be positive, but I think our last previous
prices to that were two dollars and twenty-five cents or two dollars and thirty-five cents.

Q. Was that the year before ? — A. Yes, I speak from memory only.

Q. As a matter of fact, you are aware that the price previously had been fluctuat-
ing considerably ? — A. Considerably, yes.

Q. And these fluctuations occurred within comparatively short periods ?^A.
When you speak of fluctuations, my knowledge is only one way ; the price of paper
has been decreasing ever since I have been in business.

Q. You have been in business how long ? — A. As a publisher, about twelve years.

Q. You state that during that time ? — A. I have never known of a contract hav-
ing been made at a higher price than the previous year.

Q.. Your information then is that this Canadian Paper Makers' Association was
formed in February of nineteen hundred ? — A. I judge that simply from the published
statement and from my own information that it was formed about that time. I don't
know how much -earlier it might have been.

Q. Will you give the names of these papers in the United States to which you have
referred ? — A. I do not think I am at liberty to do that, because the letters are marked
' Confidential.'

Q. It is not necessary to mention the price which one is paying — you have men-
tioned six or seven of them ? — A. I could not give you it off-hand, but I think I can
furnish a list, which I can give to the Judge.

The Commissioner. — We might have that information after lunch ?

The Witness. — The letters are in Toronto.

The Commissioner. — You can send me the letters ; I will keep them confidential.

:30 KOYAL COilMISilOy HE ALLEGED PAl'ER VOMBiyE

1-2 EDWARD ML, A. 1902
By Mr. White, K.C., continuing :

Q. You speak of the circulation being about the same as your own ? — A. Yes.

Q. What is that ? — A. Eight or nine thousand.

Q. In some cases they were paying two dollars and seventy-five cents, while you
-were paying two dollars and fifty cents ? — A. Yes, two dollars and seventy-five cents.

Q. You say you made further inquiry after you failed to make a contract with the
Eddy Company at your former price : please state what manufacturers of paper you
applied to ? — A. I remember the Canada Paper Compauy ; I do not remember any
other just now. I think I applied to a large number ; in fact, after the Eddy fire, we
applied to every paper manufacturer whose address we could get in Canada.

Q. Was the price quoted a uniform one ? — A. We received no lower price than
two dollars and fifty cents ; we were quoted some higher i^rices, very much higher.

Q. Have you any information, or is it to your knowledge, that all of the manufac-
turers you applied to were members of this alleged combine or association ? — A. No.

Q. You know nothing of that ? — A. Ko.

Q. The only one of the manufacturers who informed you that he was a member
of the Association was Mr. Eddy ? — A. Mr. Alger did the same thing.

Q. Apart from that you have no knowledge of the membership ? — A. Well, Mr.
Hall, traveller for Eddy Company, told me lie believed that practically all the paper
mills in Canada were in the Association.

Q. Without specifying who they were ? — A. Yes.

Q. What did Mr. Alger say to you ? — A. I' think the only remark tliat I recall of
Mr. Alger's was, that his price must be that fixed by the Paper Makers' Association.

Q. Did he state he was a member of the Association ? — A. I am not positive
about that. The reason I am not positive is that one of his agents had stated that to
our firm before, so whether he made the statement or the agent, I do not recall.

By Mr. King, E.C.:

Q. Do you remember any agents or travellers for any of these paper manufactur-
ing companies that called uison you ; you may not remember their names, but do you
remember the fact of their calling on you I — A. Personally, I did not see any of them
, at any time, except Mr. Hall, because our secretary-treasurer transacted the business
with them.

Further examination of this witness is reserved until he produced papers referred
to in his deposition.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 3j

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

LOUIS JOSEPH TAKTE.

Examined by Mr. King, K.C., representing the Press Asssociation.

Q. Mr. Tarte, you are a newspaper publisher, and reside in Montreal i — A. Yes.

Q. What paper are you the only publisher or sole proprietor of ? — A. I am
the president and manager of La Patrie Printing Company, which prints La
Patrie daily; We also publish a weekly paper, Le CuUivateur, and I am also one
of the co-partners of the L. J. Tarte Freres Printing Company, which prints different
papers, and does general jobbing.

Q. So that you are largely interested in the publishing business, I suppose, in the
price of paj^er ''. — A. Of course.

Q. Now, will you tell the Court here, will you kindly make a statement of facts
and circumstances which have come to your knowledge, which have led you to believe
that there was a paper combine for the purpose of unduly enhancing the price of paper ?
— A. Since about ten years that I have been in the printing business, of course I
follow the price of paper very closely. In the last three or four years, before April
last, nineteen hundred, the prices of all kinds of paper had been going down steadily;
in fact, papers that we were paying five or six years ago five cents a pound, I have
been buying in my oflice quantities at prices from one dollar and seventy cents to one
dollar and eighty-five cents, hardly over two cents. In the month of Apfil last Eddy's
mills were burnt. La Patrie was under contract, and so when L. J. Tarte and Freres
were under contract for several months still, I was getting paper for my daily paper
and for my weekly paper, Le CuUivateur, at something a trifle below two cents de-
livered in any quantity, less five per cent, thirty days or four months. When these
mills burnt I had only a very limited supply of paper. I telegraphed all over Canada,
to all the paper makers of Canada, to get their quotations.

Q. That was after the mills were burnt ? — A. That was the day they were burn-
ing. I telegraphed to every mill in Canada, and got only one or two replies. I tele-
phoned to some of the mills that have offices in Montreal. I was told by some of them
that I would get quotations in a day or two, but that the prices were uniform prices,
that the Eddy mills having been burnt down they did not know what the association
would do.

Q. What association ? — A. I don't know what association. Of course I was talk-
ing to travellers and representatives of houses, to managers of the Canada Paper, &c..
which names I can give.

Two or three days passed and different paper manufacturers' representatives and
managers themselves called at my office. I had been informed from time to time before
from the paper makers themselves that the price of paper would be going up shortly,
and inviting us, inviting my house to give orders for the future. That was sometime
in January, or December, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-nine, and in Jan-
uary, nineteen hundred. I had been told that since two years ; of course I would not
believe it, because I could not understand why the price of paper was steadily going
down at that time actually, in January, nineteen hundred, when I was paying the Eddy
Company something less than two cents for my paper. I bought paper at these times
at one dollar and seventy cents ; I bought some also at one dollar and eighty cents, and
one dollar and eighty-five cents from different mills. I bought paper from the Lincoln
Paper Mills ; I bought it from the McArthur Company.

By Mr. White, K.C.:

Q. Lincoln at one dollar and eighty-five cents ? — A. I could not tell you, but it
was below this price.

23 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
By Mr. King, K.C. :

Q. When was that ? — A. It was in January, nineteen hundred ; we bought paper
at prices below two cents, and I found out that I could have bought for all the money
I could have got in the Bank of Montreal below two cents ; that was in January, nine-
teen hundred. Well, when I came to make my contract, when I came to get paper
from the mills, I was informed that the paper makers had joined into an association,
and that the price by carload for my paper would be two dollars and fifty cents. In
fact, the Laurentide Pulp people, who came to see me, through their representative, Mr.
Alger, who was then secretary-treasurer and manager of the company, and by Mr.
Gaseoigue, who was the representative, quoted me above two dollars and fifty cents,
telling me at that time that they could sell more paper than they could manufacture,
and that they could not sell me paper less than that.

Q. Why ? — A. Well I could uot find out why at that time, but when I made my con-
tract with them a few days after ; when I made my contract with the Laurentide Pulp
Company a few days after, which contract exists with them still, — when they came to
the question of fixing up the details, — of course I had to give them my contract, be-
cause after applying to all the paper manufacturers of New York, and having gone
to New York myself, after having gone in many States, after having spent hundreds
of dollars in cabling to Vienna, in Austria for paper, — I may say that at that time 1
was offered paper delivered in Montreal below two dollars and fifty cents ; I was
offered paper here by the agent of the Austrian house below two dollars and fifty
cents.

Q. Wha^was the difference in price that was quoted to you after the paper makeis'
association was formed, and before that, what was the difference ? — A. I was paying
below two cents, and when the time came to make the contract, and after the increase,
I had to pay two and a half, and that without any discount and without any delay for
payment.

Q. Two dollars and a half per hundred pounds ? — A. Yes. I made my contract
with the Laurentide Pulp Company, and when the time came to fix up the details, up
to that time the paper makers had been allowing us reductions for the wrappings off
these rolls, which amounts to twelve or fifteen per cent on rolls; they had been allow-
ing us for the white paper. Now, there is always a considerable amount of white paper
wasted. I had been buying from almost every mill in Canada. All these miUs used
to take that back and allow me the price I paid for it. When I put that in the contract
ivith the Laurentide Pulp Company I was informed by Mr. Gascoigne and Mr. Alger
that the association had not provided for this, and that the rules of the association
were so and so, and I must abide by them ; that there was no discount to be allowed for
3ash payment, that there was no discount to be allowed for white waste or for the wrap-
pings of the paper. A few days after that, — this was sometime about the beginning of
May, •

Q. What year ? — A. Last year.

Q. After the formation of the association ? — A. Yes. A few days after, I had
contracted with the Laurentide people ; their sulphite mills were damaged ; the con-
sequence was I was again in a fix, and had to look all over the country for paper again.
I applied then to the Canada Paper Company, and Mr. Gillean, —

Q. Where are their headquarters ? — A. In Montreal. He came over to
3ee me, and he told me it was out of the question. I said, I would like
to give you part of my business, and take the whole contract if he liked
it the association prices. He told me their mills were overloaded, that they
had all the contracts they wanted, and that if I wanted paper it was out of the
question for him to send me paper below the regular prices, and I should pay three
cents for the paper. When I saw that, I telegraphed again to the several American
newspapers. I sent representatives to see them. I was assured by some of them, by
the International Paper Company, by the Otis Falls Mills and one or two others of the
largest paper manufacturers in the United States or through New England, that if I

MINVTE8 OF ETIDENCE .-JS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

wanted to do business, I had to go to the Laurentide Paper Company ; that they w«e
affiliated with them : that there was an association of paper makers, and if I wanted
paper, thej- could get it for me.

Q. That there was an arrangement between the Laurentide people and these paper
makers in New England ? — A. That they had made an arrangement, that they had
made the price uniform, that the Laurentide Pulp Company were not to compete with
them in certain quarters of England against their price, that they were not to fight
against one another in England too much, and according to that, as a reward for
that,— ,

By Mr. White, K.C.:
Q. I understand that was by correspondence ? — A. No, sir, that is verbally —

By the Commissioner: Go on.
Witness Continuing : This is verbally and writing you know.

By Mr. White, K.C. :
We might have the letters produced, anything that is in writing.

By Mr. King, K.C. :

Q. You are speaking of your personal knowledge now ? — A. To my knowledge I
went to New York several times.

Q. You saw the International and the 'Otis people ? — A. I had people see them,
and I had, myseK, telegrams that they were not to interfere in the Canadian business
here ; that they were to kind of reciprocate, and keep the prices up. To prove that this
was true, two weeks ago Mr. Scrimgeour, representing the Manufacturers' Paper, came
to see me. I said : ' What are you ready to quote us paper in Montreal delivered ? '
I told him I was paying two dollars and fifty cents, twenty-four hours' credit, and that
without any discount, which I had never done before.

Q. Twenty-four hours' credit ? — A. I am still doing it ; I have no objection to
doing it ; but when I made my contract with the Laurentide they told me that I was
to pay them that way; they wanted to save the expense of keeping book-keepers, and
ihey were getting cash, in getting the bill of lading to the Bank of Montreal for the
paper they were shipping to England, and now- they were not ready to give us any credit
or discount, but I might add that since a few months they have changed their minds
eery much, and that to-day we can buy paper very much cheaper than combine prices.

Q. Where? — A. Montreal. All over Canada. My experience is that the paper manu-
facturers have been trying to cut the throats of one another. For instance, we have had
some cases of offers, — people offered us paper at the carload price when we were only
buying five or six hundred pounds.

After I had made my contract, as I was saying before, with the Laurentide peo-
ple, when I asked them to give me a reduction for the waste of paper and everything,
1 was told that there was an association, an understanding between the manufactur-
ers, and they could not take that paper back, that I would have to pay the regxilar
uniform price of two dollars and fifty cents, that it was out of the question for me
to try to get j)aper.

Q. Who told you ^ — A. Mr. Alger and Mr. Gascoigne told me; representatives of
the Eddy Company told me.

Q. Did these gentlemen tell you they belonged to this Paper Makers' Association ?
— A. No, they did not tell me that ; not themselves.

Q. Have you learned in any way that thej- are ? — A. I will tell you
after ; you will see. After I had signed my contract with the Lauren-
tide people their sulphite mills were burnt ; I telephoned over to the Canada
Paper. Ore or two days after that, I asked for Mr. Gillean, whom I knew personally.
I said: ' You should take into consideration the fact that some time ago I offered you
53—3

34 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

my business. I am in a bad fix ; will you help me out ?' I said : 'Will you sell me
some seventeen inch paper ? I have some large rolls in stock, and I want some seven-
teen inch.' He answered me. Those are exactly the words at the telephone. I said:
'At what price will you sell me?' and he said, 'I suppose you don't expect we will
sell you paper below combine prices?' I said 'What is the combine price?' He said:
'It is two dollars and fifty cents, but you only asked me for a certain number of lots of
paper ; it is not a carload ; we may have to charge you three cents, thirty days, three per
cent, or three months.'

I bought certain quantities at three cents and took the thirty days, and got my
discount for it, which was even better than the Laurentide Pulp people. Now, some time
ago, as I was telling, Mr. Scrimgeour, of the Manufacturers' Paper, came here and told
me that the Manufacturers' Paper had withdrawn from the combine, because a certain
number of manufacturers of the United States were not abiding by the rules of the
combine and they had withdrawn, and the combine of the United States was trying all
in their power to kill them. He had seen my manager previous to that ; he can give
his evidence too.

Q. What is his name ? — A. My manager, Mr. Chevrier. I asked him what were
the papers in New York paying. He told me they were selling paper at one dollar
and seventy cents, one dollar and eighty cents, one dollar and eighty-five cents, and
one dollar and eighty-seven. He offered me paper at one eighty-seven, f.o.b. New York.

By Mr. White, K.C.:

Q. What time was that ? — That was about three weeks ago, as a matter of fact,
in April. He offered me paper f.o.b. New York for one dollar and eighty-seven cents, or
delivered in Montreal, at my office, at two dollars and forty-eight cents, duty paid and
delivered as I wished, and undertook at the same time to have a store room in Montreal
to supply me in case of accidents, and give me rolls in quantities which I would need,
at my option. That was for a better grade of paper than the paper I am getting to-day
at two dollars and iifty cents. Now I had several conversations with the gentleman, and
I told him, — of course I don't care for a small saving like that, which amounts to twt-lve
or fourteen cents per hundred pounds less, — to go and buy my paper in the United
States. That was on the morning he came to see me, and he came back in the after-
noon, and he had conmiunieated with the house. I told him then at that time that
some of the paper mills in Canada had already offered me prices ; two or three of the
members offered to leave the combine prices and give me paper ; had used some other
means to give me paper, so as to secure my business. I told him that. He made up
his mind that he would make me an offer for one dollar and seventy cents.

Q. F. o. b. New York ? — A. Yes, and then adding seventeen cents for freight, and
forty-five cents for duty, would bring down the paper below two dollars and forty cents
per hundred pounds, and five per cent discount.

Q. Who was the man offered this ? — A. Mr. Scrimgeour, the representative of the
Manufacturers' Paper. He is in the Times building in New York. 1 asked quotations
from the railway company the same day, which corroborated the evidence that the
freight was seventeen cents for print paper. Well, since that time I have been buying
paper at the combine prices, and without any notification, since a few months we have
been told by representatives of these houses, of the Canada Paper, that the rule of the
paper makers, of all the papers in Canada, that manufacturers had decided not to keep
up the combine for Manillas.

Q. Wliat kind is that ? — A. Yellow papers for general railway work or high grade
work.

By Mr. King, E.C. :

Q. For stores ? — A. Yes, and for everj^hing; there are white and yellow Manillas;
there are all kinds of Manillas, — that they had decided not to keep up any longer the

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 35

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

combine on Manillas. 1 made up my mind to go to Ottawa, and have an interview with
the Eddy Company, about the fifteenth of April last, so as to find out, as I told their
manager here, whether the Eddy Company intended to remain in the combine. I told
him 1 felt disposed to go back and give them my business, since I had been doing business
with them ten or twelve years. I had an interview when I was in Ottawa with Mr.
Kowley, with whom I have always done business and signed my contracts in the past.
I told him : 'Mr. Rowley, I have been trying to get the government to take into con-
sideration the interests of the publishers, and I feel very much that you will have
great trouble in keeping up your combine.' Mr. Rowley said : ' Mr. Tarte, there is
no combine, but we have an association.' 'Well,' I said, 'I don't know; I am not
versed enough in English ; I don't know what to make of the two. I don't know what
the is diilerence.' I asked him if the price of the news print was to be kept up. He
said : ' Decidedly.' It was better for me to contract at the present price ; that the
paper would come up. I told him my contract with the Laurentide would expire in
a few months, and I did not feel disposed to continue at the price I was paying,
and I was informed by him at that time that their company did not care at all about
the other papers ; they did not care to keep the price of Niimber Three print up,
the regular print.

I told him at that time : 'Since you have an association, for several months, we
have been buying paper below the price that your asssociation has fixed. We do it in
all kinds of ways. For instance, a house sells me a certain quality of paper, weighing
fifty or sixty pounds a ream. If they are very anxious to get the business they will
bill me fifty or sixty pounds a ream.' Mr. Rowley said : ' I do not care about that,
but that the news print price must be kept up.' I ended my interview with Mr.. Row-
ley. I told him I would consider it, and Mr. Rowley told me : 'It is to your interest
to buy your paper at the actual market price, because big papers like you can afford
to pay the price, and you are keeping small papers out of the way."

Of course there are things which I probably should not say, but as this combina-
tion has cost me fourteen thousand dollars this year I am perfectly willing to go
ahead with it.

Last year, I may add, I informed the government. I made several trips to Ottawa
and informed the Premier and the Minister of Finance, that the paper makers had
combined, and that I did not know of any mill that was willing to come here. I told
the Minister of Customs, then I told the Premier that if the duties were lowered for
three months, — I made request in writing to have the duty lowered — 1 could have got
paper from Vienna, if the duty had been lowered for two or three months, to give
these mills that were burnt, time to be re-built, and let us have paper at a reasonable
price. I may say that during that time when these mills were burnt down I paid four
cents a pound, for which I would not give one and a half cents to-day.

Last year the government told me that they would consider the thing, but being
late in the session, and being a serious precedent to create, they would not do any-
thing.

Last year I asked quotations from the Lincoln Paper Mills, the Canada Paper
Company, Laurentide Pulp Company, the McArthur and the International. Then I
had inquiries from the Otis Falls Mills and every company in New York, I might say,
and I forget the name of the Austrian company which furnished me quotations by
cable. I took an option for one thousand pounds, I think, during ten days, from
Austria last year.

A very important manufacturer told me some time ago, in Montreal, in the pre-
sence of one of his employees, that he was under control, that he had made a deposit, —
I cannot say whether it is three or five hundred dollars, — but that he could not, under
any circumstances, seU me paper below the ordinary prices, but that he was very
anxious to get my business, and if I could suggest some way for him to get out of
it, to tell it to him, and I said : ' Since one year I have been doing all kinds of
things ; and he suggested to me that he should make us n reduction, and give us some
5.3— 3i

3(5 ROYAL COilMISSWX RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

advertising in the columns of La Pairie to compensate the difference in the price, and
he told me then that his paper was costing him something below two cents ; it was
costing him a little dearer than before, because not having the pulp, some of the big
mills were trying to keep him down, but, however, if he was allowed by the associa-
tion, he would think of certain things, and he would get out of the association to
take my business.

By Mr. White, E.G.:

Q. Who is this, Mr. Tarte ? — A. I don't like xo mention it.

Q. What was the five hundred dollars for ? — A. It was either three or five hundred,
which would be confiscated if he sold below the combine prices. I have been told that
by travellers of different houses.

By Mr. King, E.G. :

Q. Which they would forfeit if they violated the rules of the combine ? — A. I was
told that by the traveller of the Eddy Company and the manager of the Eddy Com-
oariy.

By the Commissioner: You must give the name, if they insist on it, ilr. Tarte.

Witness. — The name, — that is the McArthur house of Joliette for one. He did not
mean that he wanted to deceive the association. I must be well understood there.
He meant to say that if he could find some way in which the association would be
willing to agree to it, — that was the nature of the conversation with Mr. McArthur,
because he told me he would consult the manufacturers' association.

The consequence was that there was some writing, and the answer was verbal.

By Mr. White E.G. :

Q. What is the date of that ? — A. A very few days ago, since the inquiry was
started. Now, I have been offered paper since the combine price has gone down, since
Saturday a week ago. The combine price is two dollars and thirty-seven and a half
cents, and I can get any terms I like. We can get three months, and we can get renew-
als after that. That is since three weeks.

Q. That is since this inquiry ?— A. Well, I don't know.

By Mr. Eing, E.G. :

Q. You have letters, I suppose, and telegrams, verifying some of these statements
made ? — A. I will try to find them, but I can give the names of all the parties I had con-
versations with. I had the name of Mr. Herman Eidder.

Q. Do you know of anything else that you would like to add at present ? — -A. I
have not had time to go to my office to get my letters, but all the papers I
can file would be telegrams and a few letters, if I can lay my hands on them, but all
the evidence I gave this morning is evidence I have obtained myself from talking to
parties.

Q. If you have any letters or telegrams it is better for you to produce them when
you are next examined in Montreal ? — A. Yes.

Gross-examined hy Mr. White, E.G., representing the Paper Makers' Asso-
ciation :

Q. Have you got the letters here that you referred to this morning ? — A. No.

Q. Now, the evidence that you gave this morning, Mr. Tarte, was from your own
personal knowledge and inquiries made by yourself from various manufacturers in
Canada and elsewhere in connection with this business ? — A. Yes.

Q. When did you find the price of paper become unsatisfactory ? — A. Well, after
the Eddie's mill was burnt.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 37

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. After the fire iu Eddy's mill ? — A. After I was compelled to buy paper else-
where.

Q. What contract had you at that time ? — A. I had a contract for paper which was
costing me less than two cents.

Q. What was the price ? — A. Some thing less than two cents. I was paying two
dollars and five cents, less five per cent, thirty days or four months less, I think, twelve
or fifteen hundred dollars for some other considerations, which we deducted off the total
amount of paper I bought during the year.

Q. How long had that contract been in force ? — A. I had been buying paper from
Eddy for years. I had been paying less than that before.

Q. But that particular contract, how long had that been in force ? — A. For that
price, about two years, I think.

Q. It was a written contract ? — A. Yes.

Q. Will you produce this contract when you are producing your other papers ? —
A. I have no objections if it is not destroyed ; I don't know whether I destroyed it ; we
usually destroy all these papers once a year.

Q. At the time that you made that, did you know what the other manufacturers
were charging ? — A. Yes, sir, some of the manufacturers, — I bought as low as one
dollar and seventy cents.

Q. At the time you made that contract ? — A. No, when that contract was going
on, I had bought paper, carloads of paper now and then, from different mills at various
prices from one seventy, one eighty, as far as I remember, to two dollars and fifteen
cents. I did not pay more than two dollars and fifteen cents.

Q. At the time you made your contract, was it not made at the ruling prices in
Canada ? — A. There was no price in Canada ; every one was trying to get the orders.
One day I would buy at a certain price, and the next day, it would change; it was
fluctuating, but not as steep prices as we are paying to-day.

Q. Now, did you make any inquiries as to other causes of this advance beyond the
causes you state, of an association being formed ? — A. I did not, but I was told by
several paper manufacturers that they did not wish to sell paper at these low prices
any more.

Q. Did they give you a reason for it ? — A. Some of them.

Q. What were the reasons 'i — A. The manager of the Eddy Company told me one
time, he said : ' Mr. Eddy has made up his mind that," — Of course, Eddy's was burnt,
and I asked them what was the idea of having formed an association and I was told by
Mr. Hardisty who is the local manager here and also I think by Mr. Rowley, in Ottawa,
that Eddy's made up their minds that they were going to make money now, that they
were not making any money now, and that they wanted to make more than they had
made in the past; it was time to make money.

Q. Were you aware at that time that the price of the raw material and pulp, and
the wood had also advanced ? — A. I made inquiries at that time from mills that were
buying pulp. Of course, from memory it is pretty hard for me, — I know there was a
slight advance in pulp at that time by the ton.

Q. And in other material that went into i^aper ? — A. I don't know about other
material.

Q. You made no inquiries ? — A. The Laurentide people, I asked them what was
the reason of the people coming from the United States and taking the pulp from the
St. Maurice River and bringing it into the States and offering to sell it to us cheaper
than they were selling here.

Q. Are you aware that when you spoke of these prices in the States, that they were
not ruling prices, at which they were selling to their own people ? — A. Yes, sir, they
were ruling prices. I went to New York and when the paper people here were asking
me two dollars and fifty cents, the people in New York showed me their books and they
were paying lower than we were here.

Q. Did they show you the contracts ? — A. No.

38 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Did not you know, as a matter of fact, that these prices were made previously
for several years, and they were getting the benefit of the prices when they were low ? —
A. I did not inquire to that extent.

Q. Don't you know that these prices you quoted this morning as being paid by
various journals in the United States below the market prices in the States were
prices under contract ? — A. It might have been the case.

Q. Did you not inquire ? — A. No, I inquired from paper publishers that I knew,
for instance, I inquired from some Buffalo papers and New York papers, the New
York Stein Zeitung that uses a tremendous quantity of paper. The BufPalo papers
were paying one dollar and eighty cents and one dollar and ninety cents.

Q. Don't you know it is the practice amongst large consumers to make large eon-
tracts for a number of years ? — A. Not in this country.

Q. In the States ? — A. No, because the careful publishers since four or five years
would know enough not to make long contracts.

Q. Are you prepared to say that these prices you gave us this morning at which
you say you could have got paper, that is, at one dollar and seventy cents, f.o.b.,
New York, that that was the market price in New York for local delivery ? — A. 1
could not tell you.

Q. Is it not a fact that these prices were given to you for delivery to Canada ? — A.
It was quotations for my paper.

Q. Did you not know, as a matter of fact, that you could not have bought this
paper in the States ; that you were getting slaughter prices as a matter of fact ? — A.
I did not try it.

Q. Don't you know you were getting slaughter prices ? — A. I am prepared to
say, because I have this fact before me, when I was offered paper at one dollar and
eighty-five and one dollar and eighty-seven. I have a friend in New York who uses
fifteen or twenty tons a day, who is paying one dollar and seventy in New York.

Q. You don't know whether that was under the old contract ? — A. No.

Q. You are not prepared to say that tliat is the market price in the States ? — A.
No.

Q. So that you are not prepared to say you were not getting slaughter prices
and not the regular market price ? — A. I am not prepared to say anything more than
I have said. It was offered to me for delivery here.

Q. You made no inquiry as to the market price there beyond that what you could
get it for, for yourseK ? — A. I did make inquiries to a certain extent, because if I had
not made inquiries, I would not have gone to the trouble to get representatives of
American papers here.

Q. Are you prepared to say that the market in New York is higher or lower ? — A.
I cannot tell you, but I was thinking that I could do better in New York and my
predictions were fulfilled.

Q. Have you any idea of the market price of paper for home consumption in the
United States since February, nineteen hundred, and if so, are you prepared to say it
was higher or lower than the Canadian price ? — A. I have this knowledge ; I know
that paper in the United States, — I know that paper went up in the United States
during the last year, during some period of time, and for this reason that I esi^lained
this morning, I had been told by some of the representatives of Canadian mills that
American mills had united to combine prices also.

Q. You are aware that during last year, at least since February, nineteen hun-
dred, the price of paper did advance in the United States ? — A. I don't know to what
extent the paper did advance.

Q. Did it advance in Canada ? — A. Of course, I had no other means of informing
myself in New York. Of course, this is a private matter. I have friends in New
York and in different places in the United States that publish papers, and I went
to see them, and they gave me the information they could give me. I made inquiries
and asked the American manufacturers to supply me with paper last year, but

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 39

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

a very funny thing happened. I telegraphed po some of the paper mills, and their
answer did not come from them ; their answer came from the Canadian mills here,
the Laurentide. I telegraphed the New York International Paper, and instead of com-
ing from New York, the answer came from Grand Mere the next day, or from Mont-
real, or from Ottawa, I think.

Q. You are not prepared to say that the Association, which you say exists, has
any arrangements with the International Paper Company ? — A. I don't know that as
a matter of fact.

Q. You would be very much surprised if they had no arrangement whatever ? — A.
I am never surprised at anything.

Q. While the price of paper was advancing in the United States during last year,
is it not a fact that it remained uniform in Canada ? — A. I cannot say that, because
I got soaked terribly last year ; it cost me fourteen thousand dollars last year.

Q. When ^id you make your contract ? — A. In April or the first day of May.

Q. At what rate ? — A. At two-fifty, net, twenty-four hours' credit, no discount.

Q. Has the price increased since then, or is that price still in force ? — A. The
price is gone down.

Q. Is that contract still in force ? — A. It is. I have a few months more, but I
can get great deal better terms to-day.

Q. You might have that contract produced also ? — A. Yes.

Q. Now, when you applied, as you say you did, in England, I think, or in Vienna,
were the quotations which you then got for shipment to Canada, for Canadian deliv-
ery or delivery there ? — A. We got cables. Of course, this is out of my memory a
little, but I know I would have saved a few cents.

Q. Did you make any inquirj^ as to current prices there at that time ? — A. I am
not a commercial agency, you know. I was looking out for myself.

Q. You are not prepared to speak, Mr. Tarte, as to the ruling market price for
home consumption ? — A. I may add, if I was getting paper from Vienna, I would get
an inferior grade of paper, but I took this means so as not to be choked, for the simple
reason that when the Laurentide came here, they were about the only people willing to
give me paper, because all the other people were crowded with orders, and the first
conversation they had with me, they were talking of making two or three contracts,
and I did not want to be tied up, and that is why I looked to Vienna and all over.

Q. When you inquired, when you telegraphed the Mills, did not you find that all
the mills were full up with orders, and unable to take your order ? — A. That is what
they said, at the price I was willing to pay. If I paid three cents — I got paper at
three cents ; I bought trash ; the paper was not worth two cents. Now I can get
it much less. I got some at three, four and five cents ; I filled up my cellars with all
I could store, at any price. I wanted to get paper and to be able to look around and
make more advantageous contracts.

Q. At that time, according to your information, the Association price was two
and a half cents ? — A. Yes, that is what I was told by the manufacturers themselves ;
that was the minimum price per carload.

Q. We would like to get these letters before we go any further ? — A. I can pro-
duce my paper contract ; anyhow, the paper contract I had with the Eddy people, they
will be able to produce it if we cannot find it. I think we destroy everything once a
year, but the price was two dollars and five cents, less a consideration of twelve or
fifteen hundred doll.ir^. advertising ; five per cent, four months or thirty days, which
brought down my pap?r below two cents. In fact, the Eddy Company will acknowl-
edge that. The Eddy Company owe me several carloads of paper which they are
paying me back to-day, and I am getting paper from the Eddy Company to-day to
finish the balance of my contract at the old price, less than two cents.

The further examination of this witness is reserved pending the production of
correspondence, &c.

40 ROTAL COMMISSION BE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

EVIDENCE TAKEN IN TORONTO, 4th JUNE, 1901.

EDMUND L. YOUNG.

Examined hy Mr. Barwick, representing the Press Association.

Q. Mr. Toung, you were and are an officer I think in the employment of the Con-
solidated Pulp and Paper Company ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was your firm a membsr of the Paper Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. Wliat is the name of that association — your company was a member of that
association ? — A. I suppose it would be the Paper Makers Association.

Q. Your company, what business did it carry on ? — A. Well, it carried on the
manufacture and sale of paper. '

Q. These mills, I understand, outside of Toronto, and even these large warehouses
in Toronto where you carry a stock of paper are controlled by your company ? — A. Yes.

Q. When did the company become members of the Paper Makers Association ? —
A. I think as near as I can remember about January, about the first of January.

Q. January of this year ? — A. Yes.

Q. Who were the officers of the Paper Makers Association ? — A. Well, I could not
tell you that hardly.

Q. Never mind their names — do you know any officers ? Look around the court
and see if you see any officers ? — A. I suppose the secretary of the firm of Jenkins &
Hardy.

Q. Mr. Hardy is the secretary? — A. Yes, I suppose so.

Q. Do. you know ? — A. Yes, he has been.

Q. Mr. Hardy, of the firm of Jenkins & Hardy ? — A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Hardy, who is sitting in court to-day ? — A. Yes.

Q. What was your position in the Consolidated Pulp and Paper Company ? —
A. I had charge of the sales department.

Q. Were you ever at any of the meetings of the Paper Makers' Association ? —
A. Yes.

Q. Where were they held ? — A. There was one held in Montreal and one in our
city here.

Q. One in Toronto ?— A. Yes.

Q. When you became a member of the association, or your company did, through
whom did you make your application for membership ? — A. Through the secretary of
the association.

Q. Through the secretary, Mr. Hardy ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you make the application personally ? — A. No.

Q. Was the application made in writing ? — A. I could not tell you that.

Q. Who made the arrangement under which your company became a member of
the association ?^ — A. I expect it has been the secretary. I could not tell you.

Q. You expect it was the secretary ? — A. Yes.

Q. Of your company ? — A. Yes.

Q. Who was he ? — A. W. C. MacKay, at that time.

Q. He was the secretary ? — A. Yes.

Q. He it was who probably made the arrangement ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was the application signed on behalf of your company, who joined it? — A. I
don't think so. I would not be positive on that point, but I don't think so.

Q. Was a letter written applying for membership ? — A. Not that I know of.

Q. Mr. MacKay could tell us that? — A. I suppose so.

Q. Mr. Poole, too ? — A. I presume so, yes.

MINUTES OP EVIDENCE 41

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Mr. Poole was the president? — A. Yes.

Q. And Mr. MacKay was the secretary ? — A. Yes.

Q. Had this Paper Makers' Association by-laws and constitution ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever see them? — A. I have seen them, yes.

Q. Seen the by-laws ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were they printed? — A. Well, typewritten.

Q. Have you got a copy of them? — A. No, I could not say so. I don't know.

Q. The papers of your company are now in the possession, I understand, of Mr.
Clarkson ? — A. I believe they are.

Q. The company has gone into liquidation, and all its papers are in the hands of
Mr. Clarkson?— A. Yes.

Q. Who showed you the by-laws of this association ? — A. I would not say.

Q. Did you bind yourself by oath not to say anything about it ? — A. All of the
by-laws that I have seen were the minutes of the meeting as they were read.

Q. You said 'by-laws' by mistake ? — A. I presume so. I mean the by-laws that
were kept at each meeting as it went along.

Q. Resolutions and rules passed at each meeting? — A. Yes.

y. Were they put into writing? — A. Typewritten.

Q. They were typed at the meeting? — A. I expect iiiey were.

Q. You heard the resolutions passed, and heard them read out? — A. Yes.

Q. Were they put into a book? — -A. I could not tell you.

Q. Did you see them loose or put into a book ? — A. They were loose.

By Mr. White, K.C. — I think we might shorten this examination very much. Mr.
Hardy has been produced to submit this contract of the association. We do not deny
that an association does probably exist. There is no question about the existence of an
association.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — Have you got the minute book now ? — A. We do not propose
to produce it except wo are ordered by his Lordship to do so. We will admit the prices
of news print as fixed by the association, and I submit that I think your Lordship will
hardly order the production of the papers.

By the Commissioner. — It is a very important document if it exists.

By Mr. Barwick to Mr. White — Will you allow me to see the contract? — -A. Yes

This is an agreement produced by Mr. Hardy, the secretary of the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada, produced as Exhibit P — 4.

The further examination of this witness is here suspended to allow Mr. James
Hardy to produce the contract in question.

And Mr. Hardy having produced the said contract, the further examination of the
above witness is resumed, as follows : —

Q. Mr. Young, the Consolidated Pulp and Paper Company became members of
the Paper Makers' Association, as we see, and paid $500, I understand. Had you any-
anjrthing to do with that payment, or was that payment arranged by Mr. Poole, the
president?

By Mr. White. K.C. — Your Lordship, the payment is admitted.

By Mr. Barwick (continuing :)

Q. Who arranged the payment, you or Mr. Poole ? — A. I expect, Mr. Poole arranged
it.

Q. What meetings of the association were you at ? — A. I was at one in Ottawa
I think. I could not remember exactly — in December I think. In Montreal, in
January, as near as I can remember. I would not be positive.

Q. Montreal in January, and Toronto? — A. Sometime in May, early in May.

42 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Now, were those quarterly meetings, or were they special meetings you were
at ? — A. I could not say; I do not know.

Q. How did you come to attend ? Were you invited to these meetings ? — A. Yes,
we were invited by the secretary of the association.

Q. Were schedules of prices fixed at these meetings ? — A. They were talked over
— yes.

Q. And the documents or schedule of prices I suppose were in writing ? — A. Yes.

Q. Who had them — Mr. Hardy ? — A. He had the schedules of the prices.

Q. Were the schedules of prices voted on and adopted at the meetings ? — A. Yes.

Q. And were these schedules of prices sent you afterwards ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were there any reports made to these meetings that you went to of infractions
of the rules by members of the association ? — A. I think there were. I don't remem-
blr just what they were.

Q. There were some ? — A. There were some, of course.

Q. And any reports made of the amount of money the secretary had divided up
in the shape of fines amongst the members in good standing ? — A. No, I don't Icnow
of that.

Q. Did your company ever get any share of the fines ? — A. No.

Q. Was your company fined ? — A. No, we stuck to the rules.

Q. Were any reports of infractions made at these meetings ? — A. I don't remem-
ber.

Q. You don't remember that ? — A. No.

Cross-examined by Mr. White, E.G., representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association : —

Q. You say that the papers of your company are now in the hands of the liquida-
tor ? — A. Yes.

Q. And your company is in liquidation ? — A. Yes.

Q. When did you go into liquidation ? — A. Saturday.

Q. Of last week ?— A. Yes.

Q. And up to that time you say you maintained the prices fixed by the Paper
Manufacturers' Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. What were these prices for news print ? — A. Well the prices now of course
vary according to quantities.

Q. During the past year what has been the price fixed by the association for
news print ? — A. They have been changed from time to time.

Q. Give us the last price ? — A. The last prices are not cared so much for ;
the last price is $2.37i.

Q. What discount ? — A. Three off thirty days.

Q. la carload lots ? — A. Yes.

Q. In less than carload lots ? — A. There is 12J cents extra. That is what it is
as near as I can remember.

Q. That is delivered ? — A. Yes.

Q. Delivered to the customer throughout Canada and Newfoundland ? — A. In
the particular shipping centres or points.

Q. Now, what were the prices before that, and whpn were those prices changed
do you know? — A. They were changed I presume at the last meeting about a month
ago.

Q. Previous to that what was the price ? — A. It was 12i cents a hundred higher.

Q. That was $2.50 a hundred ?— A. No, 12* cents a hundred.

Q. Higher ? That is, the price would be $2.50 with the same discounts and the
same deliveries ? — A. The same deliveries.

Q. And you say that you maintained those prices ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you sell higher ? — A. In a good many cases we sold higher.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 43

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. How do you explain the Hqnidation of your company ? — A. I presume our mills
were not —

Q. Did you make a profit at those prices — A. Ko.

Q. Tou made no profit at those prices ? — A. No. Our mills showed a big loss.

Q. Well then was the price $2.50, the price fixed by the association, a price that
gave you an abnormal profit, or did it give you any profit at all i — A. In our e.xper-
ience it made a loss.

Q. In your experience, if you stuck to the association price, you made a loss ? — A.
Yes.

Q. You did not get back your manufacturing cost ? — A. No.

Re-examined hy Mr. Barwick, E.C :

Q. Was that the reason you failed ? — A. Well that is one of the reasons.

Q. I understood the reason you failed was that you had too little capital ; you had
about $12,000 cash capital in your business ? — A. I am now only judging from the
statement that was presented from the accountant.

Q. I understood from the statement put forth to the world previous to the liquida-
tion, that the reason you failed, that you went to smash, was that you were trying to do
$100,000 worth of business on $12,000 capital ? — A. I don't know. I am not an ac-
countant.

Q. You don't want his Lordship to understand the reason your company went to
pieces was because you were compelled to sell at low prices. You don't want his Lord-
ship to believe that? — A. I don't know, I am only speaking according to the statement
which was presented.

Q. Do you want his Lordship to understand that the reason you failed was because
you were selling paper at too low a price ? — A. I presume if we sold at higher prices
we would have made much more money.

Re-cross-examination hy Mr. White, K.C. :

Q. Did not Mr. Poole make a statement on Saturday with regard to the loss on
news print ? — A. Yes.

Q. What did- he say ? — A. I could not tell you. I was not present.

JAMES HARDT.

By Mr. Barwick, K.C, representing the Press Association :
Q. You are secretary of the Paper Makers' Association of Canada ? — A. My firm

IS.

Q. Your firm, Jenkins & Hardy? — A. Yes.

Q. And you produce the agreement of February 21, 1900, forming the association,
and this is a copy of it ? — A. Yes, I produce this as Exhibit P — i.

Mr. Barwick. — Now, if your Lordship will allow me, I will read this document.

This agreement is made on February 21, 1900, between W. Barber & Brothers of
Georgetown. It is between 26 firms and companies. Twenty-six parties there are,
my lord, firms and companies, and the documents prodticed, after naming the parties,
give the full details of the agreement.

Attached to the agreement are the following documents : * In consideration of one
dollar to us paid by the members of the Paper Makers' Association, we hereby become
members of the association, and agree to maintain the prices and conditions of that

44 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

association — the same dated February 21, 1900, as fully and entirely as if we had been
one of the original parties thereto.

Witness our hand and seal this 18th day of January, 1901, £c., &c.

By Mr. White — I might state, for the information of my learned friend, that there
were no by-laws posted or by-laws contained in the agreement than those contained
in the document just read. That contains all the rules and regulations.

Copy of Agreement of Paper Makers' Association, filed as Exhibit P — 4.

In consideration of one dollar, to us paid by the members of the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada, we hereby become members of the said association, and agree
to maintain the prices, terms and conditions of the said association, as per agreement
forming the same, dated February 21, 1900, or as the same may have been or may in
the future be altered from time to time by resolution of the association, as fully
and entirely as if we had been one of the original parties thereto.

Witness our hand and seal this 18th day of January, A.D. 1901.

(Sgd.) The Consolidated Pulp and Paper Co. (Limited),

JOHN M. POOLE, President.
Witness,

(Sgd.) R. J. DiLWORTH.

In consideration of one dollar to ns paid by the members of the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada, we agree to become members of the said association, to main-
tain the prices, terms and conditions of the said association, as per agreement form-
ing the same, dated February 21, 1900, or as the same may have been or may in the
future be altered from time to time by resolution of the association, as fully and en-
tirely as if we had been one of the original parties thereto.

Any member retiring from this association under the provisions of the agreement
shall be entitled to receive back his deposit, if he is in good standing.

Witness our hand and seal this 26th day of March, 1900.

(Signed) ST. CROIX PAPER CO., Limited,

H. McC. Hart, Manager.

Witness,

(Signed) F. A. Young.

This Agreement made this twenty-first day of February, one thousand nine hun-
dred, between: —

1. W. Barber and Brothers, of the town of Georgetown.

2. Alexander Buntin & Son, of the town of Valleyfield.

3. The Canada Paper Co., Ltd., of the city of Montreal.

4. The Dominion Paper Co., Ltd., of the city of Montreal.

5. The E. B. Eddy Co., Ltd., of the city of Hull.

6. John Fisher & Sons, of the town of Dundas.

7. J. Forde & Co., of Portneuf.

8. S. A. Lazier & Sons, of the city of Belleville.

9. The Laurentide Pulp Co., Ltd, of Grand Mere.

10. Lincoln Paper Mills Co., of the town of Merritton.

11. Alexander McArthur & Co., of the city of Montreal.

12. Miller Bros. & Co., of the city of Montreal.

13. Northumberland Paper & Electric Co., Ltd., of the town of Campbellford.

14. The Ottawa Paper Company, of the city of Ottawa.

MINUTES OF EVIDESCE 45

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

15. Riordan Paper Mills Co., of the town of Merritton.

16. The Royal Paper Mills Company, of East Angus.

17. Raid, Craig & Co., of the city of Quebec.

18. The Rolland Paper Co., of the city of Montreal.

19. J. Stutt & Son, of West Flamboro.

20. St. Croix Pulp and Paper Co., of the city of Halifax.

21. Toronto Paper Manufacturing Co., of the town of Cornwall.

22. The Trent River Co., of Frankfort.

23. C. W. Thompson, of the town of Newburg.

24. The Thompson Paper Co., of the town of Newburg.

25. Taylor Bros., of the city of Toronto.

26. J. C. Wilson & Co., of the city of Montreal.

WITNESSETH ;

1. That the said parties do hereby form themselves into an association to be called
and known as the Paper Makers' Association of Canada.

2. The object of the said association shall be the promotion of friendly business
relations between the manufacturers, their agents and the trade generally, also for
the regulation and maintenance of fair prices of paper, and for conference and mutual
aid, with reference to purchase of supplies and the like. This agreement embraces all
sales in the Dominion of Canada and Newfoundland, but does not embrace papers
exported out of the Dominion of Canada, with the exception of Newfoundland.

3. This agreement is entered into until dissolved by mutual consent, but any of
the parties hereto shall have the right to retire therefrom on giving three months'
previous notice in writing to the secretary-treasurer of their intention so to do.

4. The officers of the association shall be a president, a first and second vice-presi-
dent, and Messrs. Jenkins and Hardy, of Toronto, accountants, as secretary-treasurer,
all of whom have been elected by the parties hereto to serve until the next annual meet-
ing, or until their successors are appointed.

5. The duties of the president shall be to preside at the annual and other meet-
ings of the association, and generally to perform the ordinary duties of president or
chairman of siich an association.

The vice-presidents, in order, shall perform the duties of the president in his ab-
sence.

The secretary-treasurer shall have charge of all books, papers and records of the
said association. He shall also collect and receive all moneys due or payable to the
association, which said moneys shall be deposited in a good chartered bank at the city
of Toronto to the credit of the association. The secretary-treasurer shall make all
payments required for the purposes of the said association out of the funds of the
same. He shall keep the necessary books of account for the purposes of the said asso-
ciation. He shall have the right to call a meeting of the association and shall record
shall also take the minutes of the meetings of the said association and shall record
the same in the minute book and shall give all notices and sign all papers and docu-
ments required for the purposes of the said association and shall generally perform
all the duties of such secretary-treasurer. He shall advise simultaneously by wire or
post, as directed by the association, all members of the association, all resident or
other agents or members of the association, and as far as possible, all travellers of
any changes in the association prices and terms.

6. The regular quarterly meetings of the association shall be held in the city of
Toronto within the first ten days of June, in the city of Ottawa within the first ten
days of December, and in the city of Montreal within the first ten days of March
and September, during the continuance of this agreement. The annual meeting shall
be held within the first ten days of June in each year.

Special meetings of the said association shall be held at any time at the place
mentioned in the notice thereof, upon a requisition signed by four members of the

46 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

association. The secretary-treasurer (upon such requisition) shall give to each mem-
ber of the said association at least three days' clear notice of said meeting, which said
notice shall set forth the date, place and hour of such meeting, and the nature of the
business to be transacted thereat. No other business shall be transacted at such
special meeting than that stated in the notice calling the same, unless with the con-
sent of all the parties of the association.

A committee meeting shall be held upon the requisition signed by one member of
the association.

All notices of meetings shall be given by registered letter to be addressed to the
address of the respective members, or by telegraphic message, at the discretion of the
secretary-treasurer.

A corporation member of such association may be represented by oue or two or
three of its directors or by any duly appointed agent, but it shall only be entitled to
one vote. Any member (other than the corporation member) may also be represented
by any one, two or three duly appointed agents, but he shall only be entitled to one vote.
Resident agents or travellers shall not be appointed agents under this clause.

A majority of the members of the association or committee shall constitute a
quorum.

Any resolution adopted at any meeting of the association by a majority of the
members then present, shall be binding upon all the parties hereto.

7. Each of the members shall be entitled to attend all meetings and to vote thereat,
either personally or by proxy, appointed as provided for in clause six of this agree-
ment.

8. The said parties hereto do each hereby (but so far only as relates to the act or
defaults of themselves or those for whom they are respectively responsible) covenant
and agree with the other parties hereto, as follows : —

(a.) That they, the covenantors, shall be responsible for the acts, defaults of
and breaches of the provisions of this agreement, by their respective agents, travellers
and employees of the parties hereto, and the agent, traveller and employees of the
respective agents of the parties hereto.

(6) That they, the covenantors and the agent and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will conform to and abide by any resolution adopted under the
provisions of Article 6 hereof.

(c.) That they, the covenantors and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will not quote, accept or book orders for, offer or agree to sell,
or sell the goods covered by the agreement at lower prices or on better terms and con-
ditions than those fixed by the schedule of prices annexed to this agreement or fixed
by any schedule of prices which may be adopted by resolution of the association, under
Article 6, in substitution for all or any of the said schedules hereunto annexed.

(d.) And that they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will not aid, abet, counsel, advise or procure any purchasers
or intending purchaser or purchasers to evade, elude, escape from, or get around the
provisions of this agreement, by suggestions of the consolidation of the order of two
or more purchasers, or in any way whatsoever.

(e.) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, shall not on any pretext consign goods covered by this agree-
ment, nor allow nor pay any commission to any person whomsoever, except to a bona
fide agent (who shall in no case be a dealer) whose name has been previously declared
to the secretary-treasurer, nor sell, nor invoice goods covered by this agreement except
in the name of the manufacturer, or, if bought by a member of the association from
some other manufacturer, for the'purpose of being re-sold, then in the name of the
member re-selling the same.

(f.) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, shall not (except as authorized by resolution of the associa-
tion) either directly or indirectly resort or have recourse to any scheme or subterfuge

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 47

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

whatsoever (such as the giving of presents or the giving of discounts on or deduction
from, or reductions in the price of other goods, or the giving or promising of any Icind
of benefit or advantage whatsoever, or otherwise) as an inducement or aid, or which
may operate as an inducement or aid, in the malting of present or future sales of goods.

(g.) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will not directly or indirectly advise or notify their respective
agents, travellers, employees, customers or other persons whomsoever, of the calling
or holding of any special meeting of the association, or of any anticipated fall or rise
of prices thereat, or at any other meeting of the association, and further, will not sell
goods subject to a decline in price, and also will not sell goods to be delivered more
than ninety days after the day the order for the same is taken, but any goods not
shipped within the ninety days above named, after the order for the same is taken,
shall only be shipped subject to, and shall be invoiced at, the price ruling at the date
of shipment, with the exception of contracts for news print or periodical publications,
for which contracts may be taken for a longer jseriod than ninety days.

(/i.) That they, the covenantors, will allow the secretary-treasurer at all times
access to their books of account, papers and correspondence, to enable him to verify
any statement made by any of the parties hereto, or to investigate any accusation made
against them respectively, or by the agents and others for whom they are respectively
responsible.

And the parties hereto do hereby severally promise, bind and oblige themselves,
each in the penal sum of five hundred dollars towards the others of them, to strictly
adhere to, observe and fulfil all the above agreements and obligations, and all rules,
regulations, prices and discounts which may from time to time be resolved on or
adopted by the association. And they further severally bind themselves to pay all
penalties that may be imposed upon them under this agreement for any breach or
violation of the same by themselves or their agents, or other persons for whom they
are respectively responsible.

And to secure the payment of all such penalties when incurred, each of the parties
hereto shall forthwith deliver to the secretary-treasurer an accepted cheque for the
Bum of five hundred dollars, to be deposited by the secretary-treasurer to the credit
of the association in the Bank aforesaid. And the interest on all moneys deposited
under this clause shall be accounted for to the members respectively, who shall have
delivered such moneys to the secretary-treasurer as aforesaid, and such interest is to
be placed to their credit in the books of the association.

9. On or before the fifteenth day of each month each of the parties hereto, and
their respective book-keepers, and each traveller and each agent whose name has been
declared to the secretary-treasurer, and the traveller of each agent (all of whose names
must be declared to him forthwith) shall send to the secretary-treasurer a solemn de-
claration in the form ' A,' hereto annexed, that he has not, directly or indirectly
broken or violated, or permitted to be broken or violated, the terms of this agreement,
and is not aware of any such breach or violation. And any member failing or neglect-
ing to send such declaration to the secretary-treasurer on or before the said fifteenth
day of each month, shall ipso facto, become liable to a penalty of five dollars per day for
each and every day such default continues. And a like penalty shall be exacted from
such member for each statement to be made by his bookkeeper, traveller or agent, or
by the book-keeper or traveller of his agent or agents, which such book-keeper, traveller
or agent may fail to neglect to make, for each and every day such default continues.
And the secretary-treasurer shall have the right to charge the amount of every such
penalty so incurred by any such member against the amount in the hands of the asso-
ciation at the credit of such member.

10. On or before the fifteenth day of each month each member shall send to the
secretary-treasurer of the association a statement in the form ' B,' hereto annexed,
which shall contain a summary of all sales made by and for such member for the pre-
vious calendar month, and to be accompanied by a solemn declaration of such member.

48 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

And any member failing or neglecting to send such statement on or before the said
fifteenth day of each month, shall ipso facto be liable, and he hereby binds and obliges
himself to pay a penalty of five dollars per day for each and every day snch default
continues. And the secretary-treasurer shall have the right to charge the amount of
any such penalty against the amount standing at the credit of such members in the
hands of the association.

11. The secretary-treasurer shall have the right to verify any statements made
by the members of the said association by making such other inquiries as he m.ay
deem necessary, but the secretary-treasurer shall not make known to any one any
part of the information which he may have so obtained, except when such member
shall be found to have broken or violated this agreement, in which case the secretary-
treasurer shall communicate to the association at a meeting, duly called, such
details and particulars of such breach or violation as may be necessary, and the refusal
of any member to allow the secretary-treasurer to examine his books and other papers
relative to any matter covered by this agreement shall be considered a breach or viola-
tion of this agreement, and shall subject such member to a penalty of not less than
fifty dollars or more than five hundred dollars.

If any complaint be made of the breach or violation of this agreement by any
member, or his agents, employees or travellers, for the investigation of which it may
be necessary to check the goods in the factory, or stores, or on the premises of such
member, the secretary-treasurer shall have the right to place one or more agents in
the manufactory of such member to' investigate such complaint, and check the goods
and effects therein, so far as may be necessary for the information of the secretary-
treasurer, and to enable him to judge whether or no the provisions of this agreement are
being faithfully performed, and to pay such agent or agents out of the funds in his
hands belonging to the association.

12. If any member or his agents, or his or their agents, employees or tra-
vellers, shall be reported to the secretary-treasurer as having broken or violated
any of the provisions of this agreement (the report giving particulars of such
breach or violation so as to enable the secretary-treasurer to investigate the
same), or if the secretary-treasurer shall discover any breach or violation there-
of, the secretary-treasurer shall notify such member of such breach or viola-
tion, giving him particulars of the same, and such accused member on being
so notified, shall furnish to the secretary-treasurer, written fifteen days there-
after, all evidence within his power, or under his control, that he has not, nor have
such agents, employees or travellers, broken or violated any of such provisions, and
the secretary-treasurer shall fully investigate the matter, taking and acting upon such
evidence as he sees fit, and if he is not perfectly convinced that no violation has been
made, he may further call upon the accused member, as well as any of his salesmen,
agents, or clerks that he may indicate, to make affidavit or declaration in his presence,
or in the presence of his duly authorized agent, and before a recognized notary public
or justice of the peace in the Province of Quebec, and a commissioner or justice of the
peace in any other province of the Dominion, to be selected by the secretary-treasurer,
that the charges are false and incorrect. The failure on the part of the member or
any of his employees to make such afiidavit or declaration forthwith when requested
to do so by the secretary-treasurer shall be considered as proof positive that the agree-
ment has been violated ; and further if, in his opinion, the member complained of has
or any of his agents, employees or travellers have, broken or violated this agreement,
as charged against them, the secretary-treasurer shall declare and decide the same in
writing, over his own signature, giving particulars of such breach or violation, and
shall in such writing fine the accused member not less than fifty dollars and not more
than five hundred dollars, at the discretion of the secretary-treasurer, for such breach
or violation, and shall deliver a copy of such writing to the accused member, and such
nember shall thereupon be held to have incurred the penalty mentioned in such deci-

MINVTE8 OF EVIDENCE 49

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Provided that any member upon whom such penalty has been imposed shall have
the right to appeal within ten days to the association from the decision of secretary-
treasurer. Provided always that any. member not appealing to the association within
the time aforesaid, shall be held ipso facto to have incurred the said penalty.

Provided also that in the event of the secretary-treasurer's discovering what in his
opinion is only a clerical error in any invoice sent out by any of the parties hereto, he
shall not enforce the penalty, but shall report the matter at the next quarterly meeting,
when it shall be adjudicated upon.

13. As soon as any penalty has been established against any member as provided
for in the preceding section, such penalty shall be charged by the secretary-treasurer
against the sum of five hundred dollars deposited by such member and in the hands
of the association, and the secretary-treasurer is hereby authorized by each of the
members, parties to this agreement, to charge against such sum as may be to the credit
of such member, the amount or amounts of the penalty or penalties which may be
imposed on such member under the provisions herein contained.

14. Should the amount at the credit of any member of the said association at any
time be reduced or become less than the said sum of five hundred dollars, bj' reason
of any penalty having been imijosed on such member, or otherwise, the secretary-
treasurer shall at once notify such member of the said reduction ana the amount
thereof, and the said member shall forthwith pay, and he hereby binds himself and
obliges himself to pay to the secretary-treasurer a sufficient sum to make, up the
amount in the hands of the association to the sum of five hundred dollars. Any mem-
ber who within ten days after the mailing to him of such notices by the secretary-
treasurer, shall not make up his deposit to five hundred dollars as aforesaid, shall pay
a penalty of five dollars per day for each day during which he shall be in default, so
to make up the said amount, all of which penalty shall be paid to the credit of the
association from the funds in the hands of the association to the credit of such mem-
ber, and such member shall be considered as not in good standing.

15. And the undersigned members of this association enter into this agreement in
honour bound to fulfil its conditions, irrespective of any legal question or technicality.

16. All or any penalties imposed on any member as aforesaid shall be charged by
the secretary-treasurer against the amount at the credit of such member as aforesaid,
and shall be divided quarterly by the secretary-treasurer amongst the other members
of the said association in good standing, except such member.

17. The secretary-ti-easurer of the association shall, in addition to the other duties
hereinbefore assigned to him, be generally the manager and superintendent of the said
association, and it shall be his duty to see that all statements and returns required by
this agreement to be made by the members of said association and others, are duly
made, and in the event of any member or other person deviating from the provisions of
this agreement, the secretary-treasurer shall forthwith impose the penalty hereinbe-
fore provided for any such infraction of the said provisions or rules, and his decision
in the case of any such infraction of the said rules or provisions of this agreement
shall be final and without appeal. He shall make the division of the penalties among
the members according to Article 15, and shall render an account of the business at
the end of the year.

18. The salary of the said secretary-treasurer is hereby fixed at the rate of

dollars per annum, to include both hotel and travelling expenses, payable
quarterly by the members hereto in proportion to the value of goods sold by each.
His engagement to terminate on the dissolution of the association, he being paid pro
rata at the date of such dissolution.

And the parties to this agreement do hereby severally promise, covenant and agree
with the said secretary-treasurer to hold him absolutely indemnified and harmless in
respect of any moneys paid out by him by way of settlement or division of any penal-
ties or forfeitures that may be exacted under this agreement.

53—4

50 ItOTAL COMMISSION EE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

In witness whereof the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and seals the
day, mouth and year first above written.

(Sgd.)

Wm. Barber & Bros.
Alex. Buntin & Son, per Geo. M. Toy.

Canada Paper Company (Limited), Jno. MacFarlane, President.
Dominion Paper Company, W. Currie, President.
The E. B. Eddy Company (Limited), per E. B. Eddy, President.
•John Fisher & Son.
Joseph Forde & Co.

Laurentide Pulp Company (Limited), Eussel A. Alger, jr., Secretary-Treasurer.
The Lincoln Paper Mills, per W. D. Woodruff.
Alex. McArthur & Co.

The Miller Bros. Company (Limited), per W. T. Miller, President.
The Riordan Paper Mills, per Geo. E. Challes.
Eoyal Paper Mills Company (Limited), F. P. Buck, President.
The Holland Paper Company, per S. J. Eolland.
Jas. Stutt & Son.
C W. Thomson.
Taylor Brothers.
J. C. Wilson & Company.

Signed, sealed and delivered in the presence of

(Sgd.) S. T. Frame, as to signature of Wm. Barber & Bros.

(Sgd.) T. Hardy, as to other signatures.

THE PAPER MAKERS' ASSOCIATION OF CANADA.

Declaratiox required by agreement, dated 21st February, 1900 :

I, of in the County of do

solemnly declare

THAT I AM for one of the parties to the above

mentioned agreement.

That during the month of 19 , neither I, nor, to the best of my know-

ledge and belief, any other person for or on behalf of the said party, did in any way
whatever consign any of the goods covered by the said agreement to any person whom-
soever on any pretext nor allow or pay any commission except to hona fide agents whose
names have been previously declared to the secretary-treasurer of the said association,
nor sell nor invoice the goods covered by the said agreement except in the name of
the said

That I have not, nor to the best of my knowledge and belief has any other person
as aforesaid either directly or indirectly resorted or had recourse to any scheme or
subterfuge whatever, as an inducement or aid, or which may operate as an inducement
■or aid in making present or future sales of goods.

That no goods covered by the said agreement have been sold by me, nor to the best
of my knowledge and belief, by any other person as aforesaid (except to members of
the said Association), at any lower price than those fixed by the said association, and
in force during the said month of 19 , and that no rebates, discounts

(except as allowed by the said association and then in force), drawbacks, allowances,
or inducement whatever, have been made or allowed by me or, to the best of my know-
ledge and belief, by any other person as aforesaid, as au inducement to any person
to purchase goods.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 51

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

That no goods have been sold by me, nor, to the best of my knowledge and belief,
by any other person aforesaid, subject to a decline in price, for delivery, except as
provided in clause ' g ' of section 8 of the agreement.

And I make this declaration conscientiously believing it to be true, and knowing
that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath, and by virtue of • The
Canada Evidence Act, 1893.'

Signed and declared before me "|
at this I

day of A.D. 19 . J

THE PAPER MAKERS' ASSOCIATION OF CANADA.
Report of Sales required by agreement dated 21st February, 1900

Sales made by of

during the month of , 19 .

To other members $

To all others * . . . $

Making a total of $

I do solemnly declare that the above is a true

and correct statement of the sales of goods covered by the above named agreement
made by during the month of , 19 , and that

?uch sales vtere made at the prices and terms strictly in accordance with the terms
of the agreement above mentioned, and I have personally verified the same.

And I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true, and
knowing that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath, and by virtue
of ' The Canada Evidence Act, 1893.'

Signed and declared before me]
at this day I

oJ A.D., 19 .J

JOHN M. POOLE.

Examined hy Mr. Barwich, K.C., representing the Press Association:

Q. You are President of this Consolidated Pulp Companv which has just
failed ?— A. Yes.

Q. It was through you that the company, joined, that your company joined the
Paper Makers' Association ? — A. No it was not specially through me. I guess I
signed the cheque. I suppose I signed the agreement. I am not sure.

Q. You signed the agreement ? — A. Yes.

Q. John M. Poole, President, that is you ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you present at any of the meetings of the association ? — A. No, I was
not.

Q. Did you receive written advice of the proceedings of the meetings, of the
prices adopted ? — A. I think probably we. did. I did not pay very much attention to
that. It was generally handed to Mr. Young if there was anything.

Q. The advice of prices when they came in from the association would be handed
to Mr. Young ? — A. I am not positive that we got any advice of prices.
53^J

52 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. How did you learn that the price of the Paper Makers' Assoication had
been fixed for you to sell at ? — A. We knew what they were selling at long before we
joined the association at all.

Q. Why did you join the association ? — A. Well, we thought it would be a good
thing.

Q. Was that the only reason ? — A. That was one reason.

Q. What was the other reason ? — A. We thought it would be a good thing to be
a member of the association ; the rest of them were members, and in the matter of
getting supplies, buying stufi, there is a benefit.

Q. What do you mean in the matter of getting supplies ? — A. One reason is
we could store up our stock for members of the association.

Q. I don't understand that ? — A. Not being a member of the association you
would have to buy in carload lots, but being a member of the association we would buy
a smaller quantity at the same price.

Q. Before your company was a member of the Paper Makers' Association, what
did you pay ? — A. We paid more than we did when we were members. We did not pay
more, but we had to buy a larger quantity.

Q. That means about the same thing; you had to pay more if you bought
small quantities ? — A. We bought the larger quantity. The result was we would
sometimes have Cb hold the stock too long.

Q. In order to get the advantage of the low prices you had to buy carload lots,
and sometimes had to buy really much more than you wanted in order to get th^ ad-
vantage of the lower price ? — A. Yes.

Q. How did you find out you could get your supplies at lower prices if you j 'ined
the association i — A. I found out through some things. I paid very little attention
to that myself.

Q. Is it not a fact that you found out through Mr. Young that if you joine 1 the
association, you would gain this advantage ? — -A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell me the difference in price, what would it amount to ; can you
give me an idea of how much you would save ? — A. No, I could not tell you.

Q. Who could tell me that ? — A. Mr. Young could probably.

Q. And Mr. Hardy ?— A. He might.

Q. Are you able to tell me practically what this saved you in money ? — A. No.

Q. Who can tell in your company ? — A. I do not know who can, without going
into the figures.

Q. Who in your company can figure it out for me ? — A. I suppose any one could.
I could myself if I had the books and the time.

Q. Well, now, tell me how you would go about it, just show me how you would
figure out for instance. How much is there in a carload lot of news print ? — A. Twelve
tons and sometimes more.

Q. Supposing you are ordering 6 tons, less than a carload lot before you wore a
member of the association, what did you pay for it ? — A. We made all our own news.
We did not buy any news. I could hardly tell you.

Q. Tell nie any other kind of supply that you bought ? — A. Brown paper. I have
no idea what we bought.

Q. Brown paper, how much in a carload ? — A. The same quantity..

Mr. White, K.C. — ^I understand this inquiry is limited to the news print. I
understood so because the investigation has been confined to news print, and the Press
Association being the complainant, that is the paper they are interested in.

The Commissioner. — Yes, that is by Order in Council.

By Mr. Barivick, K.C, continuing :
Q. You have just been speaking of brown paper — brown papers are used exclusively
in printing, are they not ? — A. No.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ■ 53

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Not at all ?— A. No.

Q. Used as wrappers ? — A. Yes, but it would not be called printing paper.

Q. Could not you print on it ? — A. Oh, no.

Q. Do not newspapers buy brown paper from you ? — A. I do not know of any
newspaper buying it.

Q. Do you know of any jirinting establishments that buy brown paper ? — A. Not
for printing ; they use it for wrappers.

Q. It is used for wrappers extensively, and printed addresses put on it ? — A. I
don't know about that.

Q. You never saw that done ? — A. I suppose they do ; they post labels on it. I
have seen wrappers placed on brown paper.

Mr. White^ K.C. — This investigation really is directed towards news print, that is
the paper on which the news is being printed. That is the complaint, beoause so far
Mr. Ross went into the bos

The Commissioner. — I would be inclined to think that news print does not include
brown paper.

Mr. Barwick, K.C, continuing: I won't pursue that question for the moment
until I get some more information.

Resuming examination :

Q. The company manufactures its own papers ? — A. Yes, news print.

Q. Well, then you are a vendor in that respect with regard to that ; you are a
seller ? — A. I suppose.

Q. Was it any particular advantage to you to become a member of this associa-
tion in respect of your production of news print ? — A. Not at all.

Q. The only advantage was in regard to other supplies ? — A. Yes.

Q. The advantage in becoming a member of the association so far as you were
concerned was limited simply to the other supplies ? — A. Yes.

Q. What became of the circulars, and formal communications that came from
Mr. Hardy to your company, Mr. Poole ? — A. I did not see very many altogether — a
few letters. I suppose the secretary would have them. They are filed with the ordinary
correspondence; there were very few letters.

Q. They are on iile in that company's office now ? — A. I should think so.

Q. Easily accessible there ? — A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Perhaps you will be kind enough to see what you have, and let us know what
they are ? — A. Yes.

Cross-examined by Mr. White, E.C.j representing the Paper Makers' Asso-
ciation : —

Q. You joined this association in January of this year, 1901 ? — A. I am not
positive of the date.

Q. Previous to that time were you aware of the association price for news
print ? — A. Yes, 1 think we were.

Q. You knew that the association was selling at $2.50 in carload lots, with the
usual discount ? — A. Yes.

Q. After you joined the association you maintained their prices, did you ? —
A. Oh, yes.

Q. What is your opinion as to the profit that price gave you ? — A. So far as we
were concerned it did not give us any profit.

Q. Were you manufacturing pulp as well as paper ? — A. No, just paper.

Q. You were large purchasers of paper, were you not, too, from other mills ? —
A. Yes, other lines of papers.

54 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. And I think you said in your examination in chief that the advantage you
got in joining the association was that you could buy smaller lots at carload prices ? —
A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, Mr. Young, the last witness, has told us that your com-
pany sold at higher prices than the association had fixed ? — A. Yes, in a good many
cases we did.

Q. Did you make any estimate of the loss which your company made on news
print the past year ? — A. No, not specially on news print.

Q. Well on the association price for papers? — A. No, I could not say that we
made an estimate of the loss. I know it cost us more to make than we got for the
paper.

Q. Although you maintained the association prices throughout? — A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Thomson is an officer of your company, is he not ?— A. Yes.

Q. Are you aware that he made an estimate of the loss on news print during the
past eight months that your company made ? — A. No, I am not aware.

Q. Did you hear him make any statement last Saturday at the meeting of credi-
tors ? — A. No, he did not make any statement with regard to the news print.

Re-examined hy Mr. Barwich, K.C. :

Q. How long was your company in existence, Mr. Poole ? — A. About 8 months
— 9 months.

Q. Its capital was how much ?

Witness. — The capital paid in ?

Counsel. — Never mind the paid in. What is the capital stock of the company ?

Witness. — You mean the paid up capital ?

Q. No, just the authorized capital ?— A. $500,000.

Q. And your paid up capital was $12,000 ? — A. That was the amount of cash
paid.

Q. And your liabilities at the end of 8 months were how much ? — A. About
$168,000.

Q. This is pretty good on a cash capital of $12,000, isn't it ? You had one mill at
Newburg ? — A. Yes.

Q. A very old mill ? — A. Well, it is an old mill.

Q. Valued I understand by Mr. Thompson at something like $7,000 ? — A. I don't
know what he valued it at.

Q. That is what you understand he valued it at? — A. He said he would give that
for it.

Q. What were your assets when you got through ? — A. I don't know what our
assets were. They are valued at different amounts ; so many people have different
ideas as to what they are worth.

Q. What was the valuation at the meeting the other day ? — A. About $147,000.

Q. Nominal value, but what did the liquidators point out to the creditors they
might hope to have for them? — A. I don't remember just what the figures were.

Q. Somewhere around $40,000 was it not? — A. Something around that. These
were his figures, they were not mine.

Q. So I should think the trouble to your company came from having too much
credit, and not sufficient cash ? — A. That came from different reasons. One reason
was because it cost more to produce the stuff than we got for it.

Q. One reason was getting too much" credit, and having too little money to run
your business on ? — A. It was not giving enough credit.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ,55

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Re-cross-examined hy Mr. White, representing the Paper Makers' Associa-
tion:

Q. You, of course, made up your cost of manufacture of news print, and you are
quite satisfied that the cost was above the selling price ? — A. There is no doubt about
it at all.

Q. As fixed by the association? — A. No.

Q. I don't want to go into the question of your company, and so forth, but I want
to go into the question of facts ? — A. Yes.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — Q. Were you ever down at the mills at Newburg ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever go into the cost yourself ? — A. Not down there.

Q. How did you come to say that to Mr. White ? — A. I know I lost money in our
mills. We paid the bills here.

Q. You don't Itnow what the staff was down there or anything, but you know that
mill was run in such a way as to lose money ? — A. I know it lost money. I am just
giving the facts.

THOMAS il. PRESTON.

Examined hy Mr. BarwicJc, representing the Press Association :

Q. You are a printer and publisher, and you control the Brantford Expositor ? —
A. Yes, sir. Publisher and job printing.

Q. Now you know something of the working of the Paper Makers' Association ? —
A. I know something of it from a publisher's point of view.

Q. Will you be kind enough then to tell his Lordship what you know of this
association? — A. I can only rate the workings so far as it affects my own business.
I had a contract with the Canada Paper Company for $2.10 per 100 povmds in the ream.
I think in the month of December, 1899, or thereabouts — I am not too certain as to the
date, because I did not bring the dociunents with me.

By Mr. White, K.C. :

Q. You can produce the contract ? — -A. I can produce a letter, or whatever it may
be, forming the basis of the contract.

In the month of December or thereabouts, 1899, an advance was made to $2.20.
That was, I think, before the association was formed, and that carried me through
until quite recently when I found it necessary of course to invite tenders. That was
both for reams and rolls.

I invited tenders from the Canada Paper Company, the E. B. Eddy Company, the
Consolidated Paper Company and the Kiordans. I have the letters witli me. They gave
me a uniform price of $2.50 in the rolls by carload lots, and $2.75 in the reams.

Since then within the last months or so — I have a letter in my pocket — I was noti-
fied simultaneously by the E. B. Eddy Company, and the Canada Paper Company,
that there had been a drop, and I now have made a contract for rolls at $2.37i, the
price in flats, or in reams, being $2.62J.

Q. You better let us see these letters, I think. Just read these yourself. I do not
know anything about these, Mr. Preston. Read us the first lot of letters. The first
is from E. B. Eddy Company.

The Commissioner. — Read them by order of date.

56 ROTAD COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

A. Three of them are dated 1st December last. The first is from William Barber
and Brothers, Georgetown, dated December first, nineten hundred, and reads as fol-
lows :

'T. H. Preston, Esq.,
'Brantford.

■ De.\r Sir, — We have your favour of the 30th, aslcing for quotations on 100 tons
news in rolls, and in sheets delivered at Brantford.

*We quote you for rolls two and a half cents and for sheets, two and three-quarter
cents. Terms three months, or three per cent cash, thirty days.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 5.

Now, there is another letter from the Consolidated Pulp and Paper Company :

'The Expositor,

'Brantford.

' Gextlemex. — In reply to your letter of yesterday asking us to quote a price on a
hundred tons of our news in rolls and also in sheets, we will furnish you with the
amount required, in carload lots, as desired, freight paid, as follows :

'Rolls, $2.50 per hundred pounds.

'Sheets, $2.75 per hundred pounds.

'We are placing a new set of calendars in our mills which will shortly be in work-
ing order when we will turn out a very fine news. We shall be glad to receive your order
and will give it our best attention. We could have our representative see you, if
advisable.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 6.

There is also one from the Canada Paper Company :

llr. T. H. Preston,
'Brantford,
'Dear Sir, — Replying to your inquiry of November 30th, we beg to quote you
news paper in sheets two and three-quarter cents per pound, carload shipments ; rolls,
two and a half cents par pound, carload shipments, three per cent, thirty days, or
three months. We hope to be favored with a continuance of your orders and will do
our best to give you a satisfactory paper and to give your business careful attention.
As you know we have been greatly pressed during the past year, and it has been im-
possible to avoid causing our customers a little anxiety regarding their supply. In-
creased facilities, however, and a somewhat increased supply will remove the acute
pressure and we shall, we think, be able to give yon the best of service, during the
coming year. Hoping to be favored with a continuance of your orders, we ai-e, yours
truly, Canada Paper Co.. Ltd.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P— 7.

And from the E. B. Eddy Company, dated December 5th, nineteen hundred: —
' The E-Xpositoe.

'Brantford, Ont.

' Dear Sirs, — Answering the obliging inquiry in your favour of the 30th Novem-
ber, the vtniform prices on newspaper in carload lots, freight paid or allowed to
Brantford, are : —

' Rolls, $2.50 ; reams, $2.75.

' We shall hope to be favoured with your order for your requirements as we shall be
ready to ship in a short time now.

' We have instructed our 'Mr. McLaren to call and see you as soon as possible.'

This letter is produced at Exhibit P — S.

illNUTES OF EVIDENCE 57

SESSIOKAL PAPER No. 53

There is a letter from the Eiordan Paper Mills of Merrittoii, Ontario, dated Janu-
ary 9th, 1901. :

' The Expositor.

'Brantford, Ont.

'Dear Sirs. — We are in receipt of your kind favour of the 8th instant advising
us that you will let your contract for news on or about the 22nd instant. Our Mr.
Riordan will be at the mill Saturday or Monday, and if we can possibly make you
any special inducement to give us your contract, we will be pleased to do so, but may
frankly say that we have already booked contracts for the year 1901 for nearly, if not
quite, our full production, and we cannot see our way clear at present to name any
lower figure than that quoted by Mr. Charles, namely, $2.75 psr 100 pounds, in ear lots
for sheets, terms, three months or 3 per cent, thirty days. However, we will write
you finally early next week, or if Mr. Charles can go down to see you, we will send him
as we very much desire to do business with you, being the nearest mill to Brantford.'

This letter is produced as P — 9.

There is also a letter from the Canada Paper Company of May 11, 1901.

• Mr. T. H. Preston,

'Brantford, Ont.

' Dear Sir, — Eegarding your contract for news, we are pleased to say that we
shall be able to make you a reduction on the car now on order, making the price two and
three-eighths cents per pound, usual terms and conditions.

' Trusting this will not be unappreciated, we are, yours truly, Canada Paper Com-
pany, P. J. Campbell.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 10.

There are some more recent offers from the Canada Paper Company, that they will
make the price $2..32| per 100, or $2,374 in the roll. I had a similar offer, I might say,
from the Eddy Company at the same time, the same discount.

B;: Mr. Earwich, K.C., resuming :

Q. In the previous letters, it is apparent that in December, nineteen hundred,
these four houses quoted you uniform prices ? — A. Yes. It stated in one of them
that the prices were uniform.

Q. And the Eddy Company state to you plainly that the uniform price on news
paper in carload lots is so and so ? — -A. Yes ; it was their traveller who came to the
office in the last year or so, made the same statement that they could not give but the one
rate.

Q. Do you remember any particular traveller coming to you ? — A. Yes.

Q. Tell the Judge, will you please ? — A. Mr. McDougall, representing the Canada
Paper Company, Mr. Levison, of the Consolidated, Mr. Weldon, of the Eddy Com-
jiany. They have all had the one story that they could not break the agreement. There
was never any secret made about it at all.

Q. I would like to know a little more of the particulars, — what they explained to
you, Mr. Preston, since the formation of the association ? — A. They have all had the
one story, that the paper makers entered into an agreement and they could not cut the
rates, or could not give me any better than those arrived at by the combination or
the association. I won't say they vised the word ' combination.' I think, perhaps,
thoy did, in some way.

Q. When did you first learn of the formation of the association? — A. It would
be somewhere about the first of January, nineteen hundred, I should think. I am
speaking now in the rough.

Q. From whom did you learn it ? — A. It was a matter of common tallv among
both paper makers and the agents of the houses and publishers.

Q. You gathered it from men in the trade ? — A. Yes, certainly.

58 ROYAL C0MUI88I0N RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. You learned it from people who were selling paper to you ? — A. There was
never any question about the existence of an association.

Q. Prior to the formation of the association, what were your prices ? — A. The
last week, as I said, was $2.20, and I think the rate of discount was 4 per cent. I am
not absolutely sure of that. I think so.

Q. What would that mean, off a carload lot — can you figure that out for nie
shortly ? — A. I can hardly figure it out for you. I buy about four thousand dollars
worth of paper in a year in news. I suppose the difference in price would be four
hundred dollars ; it would be several hundred dollars anyway.

Q. Prior to the formation of the association, had the price which you mentioned
been ruling for some time ? - — A. The price had been fluctuating and there is always
a good deal of competition for contracts. Usually when I ask for tenders for paper,
the agents of the different houses would come. There would be a scramble for the
contract, more or less shading of price. Now, when I invite tenders, I have had but
a uniform price and no competition.

Q. What was the uniform price you had to take ? — A. They had the same story,
that they could not give me but the uniform price, and there were penalties they could
not afford to break.

Q. Have you ever attempted to buy paper from the United States ? — A. I have
asked a quotation recently; that is the only one.

Q. Have you had any difiiculties placed in your way of getting paper from the
States ? — A. No, I have not prosecuted that inquiry.

Q. How much printing paper do you use in the Brautford Expositor ofiices out-
side of news print ? — A. I could hardly tell you. Of course, we are doing job printing
all the time for all lines. I could not tell you the cost of job stock without having my
statements here.

Q. Say, in round figures, will you ? — A. I suppose my job printing papers would
cost me about two thousand dollars a year.

Q. That is, in round figures ? — A. Yes, I could tell you exactly if I had any in-
quiries to be made.

Q. How do you describe that paper for print in the trade when you are buying it ?
— A. News print, number three news is what we comniouly purchase.

Q. But the other kind of papers you use in your paper trade, how do you describe
that ? — A. The other terms would cover that, book papers, posts and the like ; even
the brovTn paper that was talked of a few minutes ago I think could be called print
paper, because it is used in printing offices. That is Manilla. It is printing paper in
a sense that printers use the paper in trade. We don't do very much ourselves liecauso
we find we cannot put any printing on the bags and the like.

Q. J undi'i stood you, Mr. Preston, that the expression 'brown pap:r ' came witliin
the expression ' printing paper ? ' — A. There are a large number of manufacturers do
printing on paper bags ; we cannot do it.

Q. You want his Lordship to understand it is printing paper ? — A. Yes, this
might be the expression for it. It is used for paper bags ; at least, is used by mer-
chants to put their goods in, and reports for newspapers are often printed on
Manillas.

Q. And grocers use large paper bags for flour ? — A. All trades use it more or less.

Bij Mr. White, K.C. :

Q. Newspapers are not printed on it ?^A. No, newspapers are not printed on
it; in earlier days our newspapers were printed on wrapping papers.

By Mr. Barwich, E.G. :

Q. Is there anything else you can inform his Lordship of ? You have told us all
about everything you can remember ; can you add anything more to what you have
said ? — A. I think not ; except I know the price of cheap print lines has gone up.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 59

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

We bought ourselves a considerable quantity from the United States, paying twenty-
five and thirty per cent duty. I'hat we never did until last year or so. The reason of
that I cannot say, of course.

Q. You import from the States ? — A. Yes.

Q. What kind of paper do you import from the States ? — A. Papers for job print-
ing ; book papers.

Q. Are they manufactured in Canada ? — A. Yes, they are manufactured and sold
by the different houses here.

Q. Manufactured by members of this asssociation ? — A. Yes.

Q. You paid the duty on the American papers, of course ? — A. Yes.

Q. And can bring it in to advantage in competition with the paper manufacturers
here ?• — A. Yes.

Cross-examined hy Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Mahers' Associa-
tion.

Q. Are you a member of the Press Association ? — A. I am.

Q. I presume you are aware of the origin of this inquiry, and probably took some
active part in it ?— A. I had nothing to do with it.

Q. But joxi knew of it ? — A. Yes, it is a matter of public knowledge

Q. The complaint the Press Association had reference to, as I understand it, was
news print. That was the subject of their complaint ? — A. I cannot say. I was not at
the meeting when the question was brought up. Parliament was going on at the
time, and I was at the House.

Q. You have told us you have a contract to-day at two dollars thirty-seven and a
half cents ? — A. I have.

Q. With the discounts ?— A. Yes.

Q. When was that contract made ? — A. Well, in the month of May, I think.

Q. That is last May ? — A. Yes, about a month ago.

Q. Before making that contract you informed yourself as to the price at which
you could buy paper generally in Canada and elsewhere, did you not ? — A. Well, this
latter contract came in the way of a concession, I might say, from the house with
which I was dealing.

Q. You were dealing with the Canada Paper Company ? — A. Yes, I had really
made a contract with them under the association price.

Q. But you made that contract as any business man would do, as being the best
price at which you could get the contract ? — A. Certainly.

Q. You did not go to the States ? — A. I wrote one firm on the other side.

Q. And the reply was not encouraging ? — A. Yes.

Q. You know that the prices on the other side are much higher than here ? — A.
Yes. This reply I got was verbal to me.

Q. You concluded the contract with the Canada Paper Company ? — A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember what that price was that was quoted to you ? — A. The Amer-
ican price ?

Counsel : Yes. — A. I think it was two dollars and fifty-five cents.

Q. Two dollars and fifty-five cents there ? — A. I am not sure about that. I am
rather inclined to think it was. I am not sure though.

Q. You have told us you carried on a job printing business also ? — A. Yes.

Q. And you figure your costs carefully ; you know approximately what the advance
on cost is ? — A. I do not spend much of my time in connection with jobbing depart-
ment.

Q. What do you consider a fair advance on cost ? — A. Twenty per cent; that is
what we usually estimate.

Q. That would apply generally on business, would it not ? — A. I presume so. That
is our method of calculating. We don't always get it. We try to.

€0 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. But anything under that yon would consider would be a reasonable and fair
advance ? — A. It would depend a good deal upon the nature of the business and the
risk ; but generally speaking, I should say so.

Q. That would apply to manufacturers of paper ? — A. Well, I can hardly speak
from their point of view.

Q. Are they under any special classification ? — A. Well, I should say the risks of
the manufacturer of paper are not quite so great as those of the printer. He has
fewer accounts, and they are supposed to be a better class of men than the indiscrim-
inate accounts which come to the publisher. Of course I cannot look at the thing
as a manufacturer looks at it.

Q. But as a general rule you should say that twenty per cent advance on cost
would be a fair and reasonable margin of profit ? — A. Well, in our business.

Q. You have spoken of book papers ; had you any information that the book papers
were included in the association prices ? — A. Not personally.

Q. Tou luiew nothing of that ? — A. No, I do not buy the job stocks. I pay the
bills, that is all.

Q. You say the association was formed early in nineteen hundred, as a matter
of fact, the date is the twenty-first of February, ]\Ir. Preston ? — A. I don't loiow. I
said roughly.

Q. Is it not a fact that shortly before that time there had been an advance ? — A.
There was a slight advance in my own of ten cents a hundred.

Q. Before the association was formed ? — A. Yes.

Q. And after the association was formed ? — A. Still more.

Q. Are you prepared to say that advance was due to the formation of the asso-
ciation ? — A. The two things were simultaneous.

Q. But you are not prepared to say there were other causes ? — A. No.

Q. You know paper advanced in the States ? — A. I don't know to my knowledge.

Q. But you told us you wrote to them and got discouraging reports ? — A. I told
you of one particular case.

Re-examined hi/ Mr. Barwick, K.C.C, representing the Press Association:

Q. You cannot bring in news paper to advantage now ? — A. Not from the quota-
tion I got.

Q. Suppose the duty were taken off ? — A. Taking this particular case, I could not
bring it in then.

Q. You could not bring in news print, then ? — A. No. Maybe there is a combina-
tion over there. They say there is a combination over there.

Q. What information have you as to that ? — A. Nothing but hearsay.

WILLIAM SMITH DINGMAN.

Examined hy Mr. Barwick, K.C., representing the Press Association:

Q. You live in Stratford ?— A. Yes.

Q. And publish a newspaper there ? — A. I am principal proprietor of the Herald
newspaper there.

Q. The Stratford Herald ?— A. Yes.

Q. What is the amount of your purchases of paper during the year, about ? — A.
Our news paper purchases run from fifteen to sixteen hundred dollars, or a little over
sixteen hundred dollars.

Q. That is what you call news print ? — A. Yes.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE qi

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Aud your other newspaper printing, what do they come to ? — A. I did not look
up that question particularly. I suppose sis or eight hundred dollars.

Q. Six or eight hundred dollars a year ? — A. Yes

Q. What are the other papers used for ? — A. Jobbing purposes, printing of small
work, letter heads, posters and all that class of work ; miscellaneous work.

Q. Books ? — A. No, we do not print books.

Q. When did you first hear, Mr. Dingnian, of the formation of this Paper Makers'
Association ? — A. It would be shortly after the fire, I think, or in the vicinity of the
time of the fire at the Eddy Mills.

Q. When was that fire ? Just a little over a year ago, was it not ? — A. Yes.

Q. The twenty-sixth of April, nineteen hundred ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was the great Ottawa fire ? — A. Yes.

Q. How long have you been in business ? — A. I have been in business for myself
for seventeen or eighteen years.

Q. Then you have a pretty good knowledge of the prices before this association
was formed ? — A. A fair knowledge.

Q. Will you be kind enough to tell his Lordship what efl^ect the formation of this
Paper Makers' Association has had on your business. Tell us the course of business, as
far as you know, before and since ? — A. The prices we had been paying for news print
just before the combine came into operation were two and a quarter cents, or two
dollars and twenty-five cents per one hundred pounds, delivered at Stratford. The
effect afterwards was to raise the price at first to three cents, and subsequently to two
dollars and seventy-fi\e cents — two and three-quarter cents, with a discrimination
against us in the matter of freight delivery.

The discrimination took the effect of the freight being paid free to certain points,
which were called equalization points of which Stratford was not one, aud we were
asked to pay over and above, — to pay the local rate over and above the freight rate from
the point of manufacture tb this nearest equalization point.

The effect was that the London publisher would get his paper delivered at the same
price per carload free of freight at London, while we would be charged the extra rate
from London to Stratford.

It effected a discrimination against us of in the vicinity of ten to fifteen cents per
one hundred pounds.

Q. That is since the formation of the combine ? — A. Yes. I objected to that, and
the paper travellers regularly, and always we got sympathy from the travellers, but
no satisfaction from headquarters.

I investigated the alternative of buying paper from the other side, and found that
paper could be purchased over there at two quotations, one at two and one-eighth
cents and the other 2 -15,' which, with the duty and freight paid, would deliver the
paper in Stratford at a trifle under the combine price, with a discrimination in the
matter of freight added.

Q. I do not understand the last remark : ' with a discrimination added ' ? — A.
With a discrimination against us.

Q. With the present discrimination you could have brought your paper in ? — A.
Yes, I estimated. ,

Q. At a less price ? — A. At a slightly less price

Q. With the duty removed ? — A. No. With the duty added ; with the duty re-
moved the price would have been very much less.

By the Commissioner :
Q. What would have been the exact price with the duty added ?-

By Mr. Barwich, K.G. :
Q. Have you this in writing now, what you are telling us ? — A. Yes.

62 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAFER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Well, answer his Lordship's question first ? — A. The price from Niagara Falls,
New York, of paper would be $2.12i per 100 pounds, duty 54 cents, freight 12
cents, making a total of $2.78J per 100 pounds as compared with about $2.85 under the
combine regulation.

By the Commissioner :

Q. With the discrimination against you i — A. Yes, with the discrimination
against us.

Q. That would not apply to the London paper ? — A. No, he could get his delivered
in London at $2.75.

Q. You are situated near London ? — A. I am nearest London ; it is the nearest
alleged equalization point.

Q. What is the meaning of that word, — equalization ? — A. I tried to discover
but have been unable to discover it.

By Mr. Barwick, E.C.:

Q. That is a point at which they deliver paper at a certain rate ? — A. Yes.

Q. It is a distributing point ? — A. No. I understand it was devised for the pur-
pose of equalizing competition between the different mills so that one could not gain an
extra advantage with customers who are contiguous to their own mills ; so that George-
town, for instance, could not have any particular cinch on the paper users near by.

Q. Why. ? — A. Because it was apparently arranged among the paper makers that
Georgetown, for instance, should be a point where they would all be upon equal footing,
and the various other equalization points would also be placed where they would be
upon equal footing.

Q. You mean to say, where the paper would be the same price, freight would
be collected at all these points ? — A. Yes. •

Q. So that the price paid> for paper delivered at London would be the same price
as that paid at Georgetown ? — A. Yes.

Q. How many miles from Toronto is Georgetown ? — A. It is about twenty-five or
thirty miles, where the Barber Paper Mills are.

Q. So that the Barber Paper Mills, twenty-five miles from Toronto, for delivery
Toronto was an equalization point ? — A. Yes, I suppose so.

Q. The effect would be that exactly the same price would- be paid for paper de-
livered from the Barber Paper Mills as it would at London ? — A. Yes.

Q. So that it was not a question of equalization to the buyer ; it was a question
of equalization to the seller ? — A. Yes.

Q. What were the average prices you were paying prior to the formation of the
combine ? — A. Two and a quarter cents a pound delivered at Stratford.

Q. Any allowances, such as wrapping ? — A. No, that was the net price, except for
the usual discount for thirty days.

Q. Your net price was 2j cents^ with what discount i — A. I think it was 3 per
cent for thirty days.

By the Commissioner:

Q. Two dollars and twenty-five cents per hundred pounds with a discount of what
per cent ? — A. Three per cent.

By Mr. Barwick, K.C. :

Q. If paid for, cash in thirty days ? — A. Yes.

Q. And your price since the combine was formed is ? — A. At present it is $2.75.
There has been a recent reduction to two and five-eighths (2|).

Q. Per pound ? — A. Yes, per pound, two and five-eighths. There is a reduction, —
$2.62J per 100 pounds.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 63

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Yes, but with no change in your freight arrangement ? — A. No.

Q. When did the reduction to $2.62i come ? — A. Within the last couple of weeks.
I think ; but at all events I was notified of it within the last couple of weeks or there-
abouts.

Q. Tou were notified ? How were you notified ? — A. I had letter quotations from
three firms to that effect.

Q. You have a bundle of correspondence there, Mr. Dingman, have you not, on
this subject ? — A. I have just a few letters here.

Q. Are they all arranged in order, chronologically ? — A. [Not exactly; there are
some that are very pertinent and some are not.

Q. With whom did you particularly deal, Mr. Dingman ? — A. Our particular deal-
ings of late years have been with the Canada Paper Company, the Eddy Paper Mills,
and the Eiordan Paper Mills.

Q. Did you buy by correspondence or from their travellers ? — A. Generally from
their travellers ; sometimes by corrrespondence.

Q. Have you been informed by these travellers that they are governed by the rules
of the association or combine, as you have been calling it ? — A. They have several
times virtually admitted to me the existence of a combine ; whether they used the
word combine, I don't remember.

Q. No, we are just calling it that for short. — A. But I have discussed the matter
of the combine with them ; the various members of them.

Q. What explanation had they given you with regard to the workings of the com-
bine as affecting their salSb to you ? — -A. They have, without exception, objected to
this freight discrimination, which they found an obstacle to trade, or at all events, a
complaint which they met very frequently on their travels.

Q. Have they told you that the association governed prices ? — A. I must be fair
upon this point. My impression is that they have told me that, but I took no memo-
randum of these conversations, and I am not able to say absolutely, but I have a very
strong impresssion that more than one has admitted that.

Q. You only have a general recollection, and would not like to say that any one
has actually said that to you ? — A. Yes. I may cite a passage in a letter here from
the Eiordan Mills:

' We find Stratford is not a delivery point, and apparently the nearest delivery
point is London. We have therefore allowed you the freight on the basis of f.o.b.
cars, London. This is what the mills are doing and we cannot do otherwise.'

Q. That is a letter of the twenty-second of August, nineteen hundred, from the
Eiordan Paper Mills ?— A. Yes.

Messrs. Stratford Herald Printing Company.

'Dear Sirs, — Your favour of the 20th inst. is received. We enter your esteemed
order, and will ship in good time to arrive safely before September eighth.

' Li regard to freights. We find Stratford is not a delivery point, and apparently
the nearest delivery point is London. We have therefore allowed you the freight on
the basis of f.o.b. cars, London. This is what all the mills are doing, and we cannot
do otherwise. We will, however, make the contract price $2.75 f.o.b. cars, Merritton,
in car lots, or $3.00, less than car lots, and deduct the freight on the basis of London
delivery, as per last invoice.

' We are about to inquire whether Georgetown would be nearer as a freight basis,
and will advise accordingly. As regards draft, kindly accept same, as we cannot
make any alteration from the three months' terms, and as it has gone forward, will
thank you to accept it.'

This letter is filed as Exhibit P— 11.

Q. Now, you made some inquiries in the States with reference to the price of
paper there, did you not ? — A. Yes.

64 BOTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Tell us what these inquiries were and read the letter as you go along i — A.
There is a letter from Bradner, Smith and Company, Chicago, dated March twenty-
eighth, nineteen hundred and one :

' Replying to your favor of the 26th instant would say that we have forwarded your
letter to our Mr. Barr, who may be able to call on you before he returns.

' In regard to price on print paper in carload lots, would say, that we could quote
you on paper to weigh 24 x 36, 281bs. to the ream and heavier, either in rolls or in
sheets, $2.10 per cwt., f.o.b. Mill, Anderson, Indiana. Terms as usual. We do not
think the rate would be more than 20c. per cwt., and we do not know what the dutj'
would be.

' We are , not working with any combination of any kind, and we would be very
glad to help you in any way we could to buy paper at a lower price than you can get it
from the Canadian mills.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 12.

I learned that the Inland Daily Press Association, an association of daily news-
papers, particularly in Michigan and Indiana, had made a contract with this same firm,
Bradner Smith & Company, to supply all their paper at $2.18 per hundred weight,
f.o.b. ears at the mill. That price to be for either flat or rolled paper. There is a
copy of the contract that was sent me in the letter.

Letter from tlie Inland Daily Press Association, Michigan, Indiana :

' Absence from home prevented my answering your l^ter at an earlier date.

' I enclose you copy of contract which our association has recently made, making
us a saving of from 25 to 40 cents per 100, over what we were paying previously.

' The Clift' Paper Company, Niagara Falls, gave about the same quotations for
paper on cars at Niagara Falls as we are now paying.

' The proceedings of our meetings are not published, members being required to
attend meetings in order to get the benefits thereof.

' If the information herein contained is of any benefit to you, you are very welcome
to same.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 13.

Q. Anything more, Mr. Dingman '{ — A. I have a letter also from the Cliff Paper
Company, Niagara Falls, New York, of March twenty-seventh, nineteen hundred and
one :

' We have yours of the 26th, and would say that a carload of paper by our railroad's
classification is thirty thousand dollars. We can name you a special price on this of
2jc. f.o.b. cars, this city, less three per cent cash. We imagine, however, from the
duty, that this would make it higher than you could get it for at home and 2Jc. is lower
than we are securing for paper here as we usually make a lower price for export
business.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 14.

Q. Now, Mr. Dingman, what effect has the combine prices had upon your other
papers besides news papers ? — A. I am not so well prepared to speak on that because
I did not purchase the paper myself, and I have not investigated that point so par-
ticularly.

Q. Is there anything else you can give information as to, besides what I have
asked you ? — A. There is a letter from F. J. Campbell, Canada Paper Company.

■' We beg to thank you for yours of the 22nd instant. We might say that the
writer has always opposed the present freight arrangement, but the solons who con-
trol matters, not being so closely in touch with the trade, did not see it in quite the
same way. We think, however, they are now coming to our way of thinking, and shall
write you further in the course of a few days.'

This letter is produced as Exhibit P — 15.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ■ (;r,

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Cross-Examination :

Q. You are being supplied at present, you say, by the Canada Paper Company ? — ■
A. No, I did not say that.

Q. By whom ? — A. At present our paper comes from the Thompson mills at
ISTewburg.

Q. Where is that ? — A. Near Napanee.

Q. The Consolidated Paper Company ? — A. Yes, it is under their control, I under-
stand.

Q. Under contract ? — A. No, not under any contract.

Q. You buy it according to your needs ? — A. Yes.

Q. Had you contracts previous to 1901 ? — A. We had a contract for a time with
the Eiordan Paper Mills, and also with the Eddy Mills, and previous to that with the
Canada Paper Company.

Q. When you use the word 'combine' as you have in your evidence what do you
understand by it ? — A. What I understand by it is, that an association of paper makers
has been formed for the purpose of controlling prices and forcing uniform regulations
upon their customers.

Q. And your complaint against the present association is this question of freight
rates, — that you don't get the same freight rates as people at London do? — A. Yes, and
what I think are unduly high prices.

Q. You think they are unduly high? — A. I do.

Q. You are carrying on a jobbing business yourself? — A. Yes.

Q. What advance on cost do you figure generally in making your estimates? — A.
It varies ; generally in estimating a job I usually add fifty per cent to the job cost, the
fifty per cent, including profit and share of the general expenses of maintaining the
business, ofiice expenses, itc.

Q. Wlien you speak of general expenses you mean the cost of material, labour and
the press work, i:c. ? — A. Yes, and wages.

Q. And you add fifty per cent, to cover general expenses and profit ? — A. Yes.

Q. What do you consider a fair margin of profit in manufacturing business ?
What would you consider a reasonable advance on the manufacturers' cost ? Would
twenty -five per cent be too high i — A. I might say this basis I spsak of is in regard
to small jobs of a few dollars at a time.

Q. Is not the output proportionate to the capital invested as a rule ? — A. Each
individual job is taken up on its own footing, and a small piece of work necessarily
requires a higher percentage levied upon it than a larger piece of work, which would
consume a large amount of time.

Q. Take a large piece of work. What would you consider a fair percentage of
profit on that ? — A. Thirty-three and a third per cent.

Q. Would be reasonable ? — A. In some cases.

Q. Would twenty-five per cent advance on cost be, in your opinion, a reasonable
advance for a manufacturer to put ou his goods ? — A. I am not prepared to lay down
any abstract rules to govern all cases.

Q. Taking the manufacturers of paper in Canada, you know the output is com-
paratively small as compared to the States and other countries. Would you consider
twenty per cent advance on manufacturers' cost an exorbitant and reasonable mar-
gin of profit ? — A. I have to object to your presuming that I Imow all about the situa-
tion, because I do not claim to be acquainted intimately on all points.

Q. You have been eighteen years in business and you inust know something about
the condition of the paper trade in Canada. Speaking as a business man, would you
consider twenty-five per cent advance on cost to be an unreasonable profit ? — A. My
answer to that is that I judge the matter rather by the comparison of prices elsewhere,
and to my mind the comparison afforded by —

Q. Pardon me, we are speaking of profits. Do you know about the comparative
profits elsewhere? — A. I am answering it in the way it appears to me. To my mind,
53—5

£6 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the comparison afforded by the much lower prices in the United States indicate too
high profits here.

Q. Now, you have just said that you consider that a man who is turning out a
small job should reasonably expect a higher rate of profit than a man who is dealing
in larger quantities. Is that right ? — A. Yes.

Q. You know, as a matter of fact, that there are several newspapers in the United
States whose annual consumption of news print for each of these newspapers is greater
thau the total output of Canada. Do you know, for instance, that the Xew York Jour-
nal uses more in a year than is used in the whole of Canada? — A. I don't know, but
I would not doubt it.

Q. What did you find — that there is an unreasonable difference between the prices
which you had quoted to you in the States and the prices here ? — A. I do not think
there is any unreasonable difference.

Q. You have told us that the quotations you got from the States showed that
the Inland Daily Press Association which is a combination of newspapers, near the
mill out in Indiana, had made a contract of two dollars and eighteen cents, that is right,
is it not ? — A. I presume so.

Q. But you were also informed in your letter that there was a saving in that con-
tract of forty cents on previous contracts ?

Witness. — Forty cents is it ?

Q. Forty cents, that would bring it up to $2.60 ? — A. I might to what I stated a
while ago. I have been informed in the last couple of weeks that the price in the
United States is two cents.

Q. The letter says : ' I inclose you copy of contract which our association has
recently made, making us a saving of from twenty-five to forty cents per hundred from
what we have been paying previously.' You have no reason to doubt the correctness of
this statement, have you ? — A. No.

Q. Very well, you would bring the price previously paid up to about $2.58 or $2.60 ?
■ — A. I have no doubt that those prices would have been paid by the smaller papers.

Q. Just let us deal with the facts as we have them. We have this letter, and this
is a large consumer of paper, is that not right ? — A. It is a collection of consumers
of paper.

Q. They buy in carload lots, I presume, and get the best prices ? — A. No doubt,
1 daresay.

Q. That is why they are associated together ? — A. No doubt.

Q. They show here, there is a list of papers showing sixty-eight (68) newspapers,
and you are informed that they buy, they make a contract in the name of the associa-
tion. Now, they may be treated as fairly large consumers, may they not ? — A. They
are moderate consumers ; they are somewhat like ourselves, I presume and other small
city dailies.

Q. In the aggregate ? — A. The aggregate would make a large order.

Q. And yet they have been paying anywhere from $2.40 to $2.60 ? — A. Apparently
they do, and the price coming down has brought it to $2.18.

Q. Do you know the discount they get in the States ? What cash discount do they
get ? — A. It is stated on that, I think.

Q. Three per cent thirty days ; sixty days net ? — A. Yes.

Q. At the time they were paying these prices, that is, within the past year, I
presume, what were you paying I — A. What is the date of that agaiu ?

Counsel. — This is March. I am speaking during the past year ?

Witness. — The eleventh of December, nineteen hundred.

Q. What were you paying at that time ? — A. I would have been paying then, I
think, $2.75, if I remember rightly. That would be $2.75 with the freight discrimi-
nation. It depends on which particular order. Our old contract ran for some time
after the combine.

Q. What was the contract price under the old contract ? — A. The old contract
price was $2.25.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 67

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. You were paying iu Stratford 2J cents on a consumption of from $1,500 to
$1,600 a year, when this association in the States was paying from $2.40 to $2.60 and you
think they were discriminated against unfairly ? — A. That was before the combine,
that 2J cent rate. *

Q. I want to know if that would be an unfair price to charge you, $2.25, when
people in the States that consumed probably a thousand times as much paper as you
were, and were paying $2.40 ? — A. I don't know that they were consuming a thousand
times as much as we were.

Q. Well, say sixty-eight times as much then, as there are sixty-eight newspapers
in this Association. Would you think if you paid the same price that this combination
was paying in the States that you were unfairly discriminated against ? — A. This
was not a combination when they were paying the $2.40.

Q. I am speaking of this price of the combination in the States, the Inland Press
Association. Do you think you ought to get the same terms that they got ? — A. I
thinlc we ought to get something similar to what they got.

Q. And your theory about putting on a greater profit to a small order as against
a large order does not hold good then when it comes to be applied to yourself ? — A.
Generally carload lots are considered good orders. They would command very nearly
the best prices. They are understood to command the best prices, unless it might be
in the case of metropolitan dailies.

Q. You don't contend that you are a large consumer ? You are not one of the
large consumers of news print in Canada ? — A. Not one of the largest by any means.

Q. One of the smaller ones ? — A. One of the medium ones.

Q. And you don't expect to get the same terms, according to your own theory, as
large consumers would get in the States ? — A. I think, buying in carloads, I ought to
;et as good figures as any consumer, unless it might be the very large users, like the
metropolitan dailies.

Q. And the evidence you have given was all based on that theory ? — A. And the
difference between them should be very slight.

Q. And all your evidence is based on that theory ? Your complaint is based on
that theory ? — A. I supposed it is based somewhat on that theory.

Re-examined hy Mr. Barwick, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. Do you know what prices were paid in the States for paper before the associa-
tion was formed there? — A. Before that newspaper association was formed?

Counsel. — Yes. — A. No, I am not positive.

Q. Do you know if prices in the United States are governed by the association ? —
A. There is understood to be a Paper Makers' Association in the United States.

Q. Do you know when that was formed ? — A. I don't remember the date.
That has been in existence for over a year.

Q. Just over a year ? — A. I am not speaking from definite knowledge.

By Mr. White, K.C.:

Q. You are speaking from definite knowledge ? — A. I am not speaking from definite
Imowledge.

Mr. White, E.C. — I object to this, your Lordship, as the witness is not speaking
from his definite knowledge.

By Mr. Barwick, K.C.:

Q. I want to know if you know what prices were in the United States when the
association was formed in the States ? — A. No, I am not familiar with the state of
prices previous to that.

53— 5i

68 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

ALEXANDER BUNTIN.

Examined hy Mr. Barwich, E.C., representing ihe Press Association :
Q. What is tlie name of your house, Mr. Buntin ?— A. Buntin, Eeid & Company.

By the Commissioner :
Q. Of Toronto ? — A. Toronto, yes.

By Mr. Barwick, continuing :

Q. Wholesale paper dealers ? — A. Yes.

Q. And jobbers, too ? — A. Yes.

Q. The jobbers of Toronto have had some complaint against this Paper Makers'
Association, have they not, and made some formal complaint by a deputation in which
you took part ? — A. You can hardly call it a complaint. The jobbers of Toronto are
willing to amalgamate themselves with the Paper Makers' Association of Canada and
with that end in view, we went down to interview them.

Q. Whom did you interview ? — A. We interviewed the Paper Makers' Association.
at the general meeting of the Paper Makers' Association.

By the Commissioner :

Q. When was that ? — A. In February, the first meeting they held in Montreal,
in February, nineteen hundred, I think.

Q. Were you a member of the Association ; were you a member of the deputation,
I mean ? — -A. Yes, sir.

Q. You went down ? — A. Yes.

Q. Will you be kind enough to tell us what took place at your meeting, and what
was the result of your discussions there ? — A. I went down to Montreal in connection
with Mr. Gundy of the Gage Company here ; we were deputed by the wholesale dealers
to go to Montreal and interview the Paper Makers' Association, with a view to making
them a sort of sister association, to accept the wholesale dealers as members of the
Paper Makers' Association, because the paper dealers were discriminating against the
wholesale dealers in favour of the printers and publishers and the consumer.

That is, the paper dealers had intimated that they were not going to allow the
wholesale dealer any margin of profit in handling their goods, only such small quanti-
ties that the paper makers would not direct, they would allow us to handle, but they
were going to compel all the newspapers to buy on the same conditions as the whole-
sale men. Well, there was absolutely no possibility of the wholesale man staying in
business under those conditions, so I went down to interview the Paper Makers' Asso-
ciation and ask them to do their business through the medium of the wholesale man
with the exception of the newspaper trade, which we did not care to touch, because
there was no profit m it, and the liabilities to be assumed throughout the country on
the small lots and the margin of profit were so small, it did not pay the wholesale man
to handle news paper for that class of work, although it payed the wholesale man to
handle news paper — at least, what we call news print, No. 3 news print, for job work.
For instance, we could not begin to sell any of these papers, like Mr. Dingman, of the
Stratford Herald, or the Brantford Expositor; the wholesale man could not sell them
on any margin, but what we could sell, we could handle news print in work where they
required it, for dodger work ; we get a fair margin of profit in that class of work, but
not for news work, and it was to try to get them to make a discrimination in OTir favour
that I went down to Montreal.

Q. Had they made a discrimination against you before you went down ? — A. They
had not made any discrimination other than they would sell Mr. Dingman or Mr. Pres-
ton at exactly the same price as they sold me.

UINVTES OF EVIDEXCE (jg

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. They put you on the same basis ? — A. Yes.

Q. How did your wholesale dealers in Toronto learn that ? — A. It did not take us
long to learn that.

Q. From whom ? — A. Our travellers simply came in. They would come in to a
man and he would say : ' What is the use ? You offer me print at such a price. I can
buy from Georgetown or Eiordan or Eddy at such a price ' and when we send in our
orders we find we can only buy them at such a price too.

Q. What did you go to the association for ? — A. To try and get them to give us an
opportunity to handle the paper.

Q. What made you think that it was they that had anything to do with it ? — -A.
Because it was in all the papers ; it was public property.

Q. That they controlled it ? — A. No, sir. This association has been practically in
force, — well, I was a member of it in 1886, the Paper Makers' Association of Canada ;
it is the same association.

Q. But with a new agreement ? — A. Ke-organized.

Q. The association controlled prices in exactly the same way which it does now?
— A. Yes.

Q. And it was not formed for the purpose of keeping prices down, was it ? — A.
Well, I don't know what it was formed for. It was an association the same as any
other association. I don't know whether it was to keep prices up or down. I think it
was a natural protection against the losses which the paper makers made.

Q. And the cutting of prices ? — A. Yes.

Q. It was a protection amongst the paper makers to prevent reduction amongst
rivals ? — A. Well, there are always houses that will cut indiscriminately, not caring
whether they make any profit themselves, thereby forcing other houses to either let
the goods go to that house or sell them at a loss. We have had an evidence of that in
Toronto very lately, that you have reference to here.

Q. The Consolidated Company ? — A. Yes.

Q. This company that went to pieces for want of credit ? — A. I would not say
that; that might be a little unfair.

Q. That is what Mr. Poole said ? — A. They ran their business on too close a mar-
gin ; in fact, they had not any margin at all. It is to prevent this sort of thing that
it was formed.

Q. Did the system of fines exist in your time ? — A. Yes.

Q. When a man sold under agreement prices ? — A. Yes, as near as I can remem-
ber, in 1886.

Q. And you proposed in your talk at Montreal to come in and submit to fines in
the same way I — A. They did not give us a chance to go that far.

Q. Why ? — A. They told us they did not want us.

Q. Did they comply with your request and give you some concessions? — A. No
sir, we get no concessions.

Q. And it is the same position ? — A. We stand in exactly the same position.

Q. And the same as any newspaper office does ? — A. Yes.

Q. The association fixes the price and you cannot get apart from them? — A. We
cannot buy news anywhere; we camiot buy news from the States that we could bring
in here and sell.

Q. Why ? — A. Because they won't give it to us.

Q. They won't give it to you ? — A. None of the mills would hardly accept an order
from us ; first of all the price, with freight and duty, was too high.

Q. Was there an evident refusal on the part of the mills, combined refusal to give
you paper to import into Canada ? — A. No, they were too busy.

Q. How is it now ? — A. It is dropping now.

Q. Can you buy paper in the States now ? — A. Yes, I can. I cannot buy news
and lay it down here any cheaper than I can buy it from the association here.

Q. What would be the effect of taking off the duty ? — A. You would ruin every-
body in the business because you cannot discriminate on what is news.

70 . ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. But you can bring the paper in here in competition or make the paper
makers come down to reasonable prices if the duty were taken down correspondingly ?
— A. If you were going to bring it in here free of duty it would make a material differ-
ence, or if the Canadian manufacturer came down, but the American mills who sell
to Canada will sell at less than they will to the States, because it gets a certain surplus
off the American market ; their surplus comes in here. There is usually an allowance
made to set off the freight and duty, and by that means they dispose of that surplus
from the States.

Q. And make an allowance for exportation? — A. What they call it, is their export
price. They put a different duty on that than what they do for home consmnption.

Q. Do you import any other paper than news print ? — A. We buy all over the
world.

Q. Are the prices of these other papers lower in the States than here? — A. There
are a great many papers made in the States that are not made here.

Q. I am not asking of the papers ? — A. They are not the same value ; a paper
made in Canada, for instances, the best No. 1 super-calendered book at the price the
mills will charge is better than the paper in the United States at the same money
There is more value in it. The only thing they can give you in the States, a paper
that wiU do the work, give the effect, but has not the qualities or lasting powers, for
less money.

Cross-examined by Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Makers' Association:

Q. You have been a paper maker as well as a dealer ? — A. Yes.

Q. How long were you connected with the manufacturing part of the business? —
A. I served my time at the mills as a paper maker for three years.

Q. You had some acquaintance with the cost prices and selling prices at that
time ? — A. Yes.

Q. You know of course now what the association prices are? — A. Yes.

Q. From your knowledge of the business, the cost of manufacture, &c., invest-
ment of capital, are the prices charged by the association exorbitant, or are they
reasonable and fair ? — A. Well, I know that we stopped at our own mills when I was
a machine tender; we stopped making news because we could not make it at a profit,
at three cents.

Q. The price at that time was three cents ? — A. Yes.

Q. And you refused to continue manufacturing because it was made at a loss ?

By Mr. Barwick, K.C.:
Q. How long ago ?— A. Ten years, 1892.

By Mr. White, K.C., continuing :

Q. Of course, in your business you follow the fluctuation of the market ? — A. Yes.

Q. Assuming that this last agreement was made on the thirteenth of February,
nineteen hundred, have you any recollection as to the tendency of the market at that
time? — A. You did not know where you were going to buy at that time. I paid Mr.
Campbell, of the Canada Paper Company, four cents for news, glad to get it, and sold
it for four and a half cents, and my customer was glad to give me four and a half
cents for it, because there was a scarcity of it. There were several reasons why it
became scarce, but I was glad to pay them four cents a pound for news.

Q. During the past eighteen months or since February, nineteen hundred, you
are aware that the demand for news print in the States has greatly increased? — A. Yes.

Q. Do you know the reason for that ? — A. No, I don't see why it should.

Q. Are you aware that the Spanish-American war increased the output of the
news print by about twenty-five per cent, the demand for newspapers ? — A. Yes, I am
aware of that.

Q. Do you know also in England, the late war in South Africa increased the
demand for news print ? — A. Yes.

MINVTES OF EriDENCE 7I

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Have you followed the paper business here, the possibilities of increasing the
supply ; do you know how the mills are working, are they working pretty full ? — A.
I know they are all working full time. I know that orders are nearly all behind. That
is, when I say that, — orders we have at hand and booked at the different mills are
nearly all behind dates of delivery.

Q. Do you know the condition at the time of the fire in Ottawa, was there a sur-
plus, or was it easy to get paper ? — A. There was a scarcity even prior to the fire on
account of the difficulty to get stock, in getting chemicals. I know that from our dif-
ferent correspondence we had with English houses. In the second place, coal was
scarce, and it was almost impossible for the finer grades of paper to get rag stock. The
International bought it all.

Q. If the association had not been formed in February, nineteen hundred, do you
consider the price of paper would have remained stationary? — A. No. The price of
paper has gone away ahead since the association formed, from what the association
made it ; the association price named for news less than carload lots was $2.75. They
never raised that, but I have had to pay four cents, down to $2.75.

Q. And you have been selling to your customers according to that price ? — A.
Yes, I carried .iust sufficient for an emergency.

Q. The object of yourself and the other members of the Paper Dealers' Association
in approaching the Paper Makers' Association was to have them raise the price and
give you the advantage, give you a discrimination? — A. We did not ask them exactly
in that way. What we said to them, for instance : ' Let the wholesale buy everything,
even to his news, and any quantity he may want at two and a half, the carload rate,
either in rolls or sheets,' and their price for small lots, under a ton, was three cents
at that time. Now, buying it at two and a half and selling it at three cents would
give us a half cent margin, and we would make delivery on the same terms as the paper
makers did. We could not possibly, as wholesale dealers, put in that paper in carload
lots, because haTiug to assort our sizes, because it would not pay us to get that in and
sort it out, and it would not pay us to keep our stock complete, and the consequence
was, we dropped it entirely.

Q. Now, the association price has been uniform for the past two months, with the
usual discount ? — A. Tes.

Q. Have you followed the quotations in the States ? — A. Yes, pretty closely.

Q. Have they uniform prices since February nineteen hundred ? — A. They are
up and down; they fluctuate; they quote almost anything, if a man thinks he will get
your order, an export order, he will pretty near figure out so as he will take it at any
price.

Q. You have been manufacturing and you know what is meant by a side sheej in
the manufacture of paper, when they make very wide paper, wider than is required,
you cut off a side sheet. That is done in the States where they have very v/ide
machines ; in filling an order they can run a side sheet ? — A. It is cheaper to run it
that way than it would be to change their deckles.

Q. Do you know, as a matter of fact, that that side sheet is very often sold for
export in the United States, most of it, at cost ? — A. From a machine tender's point
of view, it is only worth less than half a cent a isound, because it is designated in the
machine room as 'broke' and it is only taken into inventory as 'broke' at a half cent a
pound.

Q. Is that the class of paper which is sent over here ? — A. I could not say that.

Q. Do you know what this class of paper was quoted for ? — A. T don't know. I
know that most of the publishers here could hardly be quoted on that class of paper,
because they are nearly all sizes and weights, and that side sheet can only be run with
some other weight, so it is difficult to get some paper to run the same weight as that
side sheet. For instance, 40 x 52, 80 pounds, run with a side sheet, gives you a double
denii (40). A double demi forty is the stock size, sells well, and if you run tons of it,
it is a safe selling line, but you could not run a 40 x 52 with some other size.

72 ROTAL COMUISSIOy: RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

JOSEPH ATKINSON.

Examined hy Mr. Barwick, E.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. You are the Manager of the Star Publishing Company ? — A. Tes.

Q. You publish the Evening Star ? — A. Yes.

Q. And j'our Company is a considerable purchaser of paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. At Toronto ?— A. Yes.

Q. And you have, I suppose, some knowledge of the workings of the Paper Makers'
Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. What has the effect been upon your business ? Will you please tell us in your
own words, Mr. Atkinson, how that affected your business as regards what prices were
before the Paper Makers' Association came into existence and since? — A. The first I
heard of the Paper Makers' Association, it was mentioned to me as an inducement
that I should close a contract which was then in negotiation ; that was in January,
nineteen hundred. That contract I did close hurriedly, because I was told the associa-
tion was in process of formation, and the contract was for one year at a renwal of the
terms of the then expiring contract, which was at the price of $2,23, net cash, — equal
to $2.23.

That contract began on the first of February, nineteen hundred, immediately pre-
ceding the formation of the association as I suppose. When the Eddy fire occurred
we were obliged to look elsewhere for our paper. That fire made a very great shortage
in paper in Canada for the time being, and the best that I thought I could do was to
make a contract at $2.57 delivered.

By Mr. White, K.C.:

Q. Your first contract was with Eddy Company ? — A. Yes.

That $2.75 was a very high price, but we were face to face with the possibilities of
a paper famine in Canada and I was obliged to take it.

That price we have continued to pay up to the present time, and the contract is
now in force, will be in force for some little time to come.

However, there was one portion of the consumption of our paper which was not
included in that contract. For that paper I have been looking about in the past few
months for a supply. I have communicated with publishers in the States and thoy
bought some paper from the International Paper Company, New York. The price of
that paper was two cents at the mill, Corinth, New York. I got half a carload.

Q. What class of paper? — A. It was the same as used in the New York Herald,
Sunday edition, a much better class of paper, I consider than any being used in
Canada that I had seen.

The freight upon the half carload was high, as it was more or less a sample order.
1 did not wish to order a car ; they sent me half a car at the same price, two cents and
the freight added, forty-four cents from Corinth. I wrote the Company and they told
me that that was due to my only taking half a car, but if I would give them further
orders in carloads, the freight could be brought down to twenty-five cents a hundred,
which would make the cost $2.25 delivered in our office, for a quality of paper, as I
considered, very much better than the paper which I am using, and better than that
which I have seen used in Canada, — Canadian papers.

I also had a visit from the agent of the Manufacturers' Paper Company. That
agent offered me in my office, to supply me with paper at $1.80 f.o.b. near Water-
town, with a freight rate of twenty-one cents, making the price delivered in our office
$2.01 without duty, per hundred pounds. That, of course with the duty on was really
not much, because there was no use buying paper with that duty ou, but without the
duty would be a very considerable reduction.

MINUTES OF EriDENCE 73

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

The next I heard about the Paper Makers' Association was shortly after this iu-
quiry began to be talked about, when I had a visit from the representatives of a
couple of mills.

Q. Canadian mills ? — A. Yes, and I was asked if I did not want some paper, I
said ' yes,' and one of the agents said to me : ' One of these mills has some paper they
would like to sell you, and we would like to get your order and we will give it to you at
$2.50.' Well, I smiled and I said I did not think there was much of an advantage and
did not think there was any use of talking about it and he said : ' That is the best you
can do. That is the Association price, and that is all we can give you.' That, of
course, I took to be an indication that at the time of that visit that the association
price, which has since been reduced, was maintained by those two mills.

By the Commissioner:

Q. When was that ? — A. I cannot say, but I recollect I had beeu in Ottawa in
connection with this inquiry, and that is impressed on my mind by the supposition
when I saw them, they came to talk the matter over with me. I do not recollect the
date exactly.

Q. Within the last month or the preceding month ? — A. I don't recollect the date
exactly.

Q. That is about all you can tell us ? — A. Tes.

Q. In your business, what have you found tlie effect of this Paper Makers' Associa-
tion to be ? — A. Well, the effect to me was that whereas on the twenty-fourth January,
nineteen hundred, a paper mill was willing to make a contract and did make a contract
with me at equal to $2.23, that same mill was unable afterwards to make a contract
or did not make contracts afterwards at less than $2..'iO.

Q. What mill was that?— A. The Eddy mills.

Q. I am informed you were in Ottawa on the 10th of April; is not that the date? —
A. I don't know the date ; it was with the first deputation that waited on Mr. Fielding.

Q. Within the last three months ? — A. Yes, quite so, representing the Press Associa-
tion asking for this inquiry.

By the Commissioner :

Q. It was after the last resolution by the association ? — A. Yes, it was on the occa-
sion when these were presented to Mr. Fielding.

By the Commissioner:
Q. After this meeting? — A. Quite so; this meeting was about the 10th of April.

Cross-examined hy Mr. White, K.C ., representing the Paper Mahers' Association :

Q. You have a contract now which has some time to run? — A. Yes.

Q. This contract was in force at the date of your interview with the Manufa<i-
turers' Paper Company? — A. Yes.

Q. Did he call on you to sell you paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell him you had a contract ? — A. I might have.

Q. As a matter of fact, did you not tell him you had a contract before he quoted
you these prices? — A. My contract does not cover all the paper I use, and so I need
not necessarily have told him I had a contract, because I was prepared to buy paper, if
I could have got it cheap enough.

Q. The quotations you have given us there are for news jirint? — A. Yes, but I had
not contracted for the paper which I was seeking to buy.

Q. In the last instance, you say this representative of the Manufacturers' Paper
Company quoted you $1.80, f.o.b., Watertown, freight 21 cents, what was that for? —
A. News print.

Q. And you were under contract for news print at that time ? — A. I thought I
had explained. A portion of the news print I use, I am under contract for, but there

74 ROYAL COMMISSWy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

is a quantity of news print which we use in our business for which I am not under
contract.

Q. 'Did this quotation apply to the paper you were under contract for or not ? — A.
The contract did not cover the whole consumption.

Q. You used news print that you have contracted for? — A. We print four or five
weekly papers besides our daily paper. We have contracts with certain publishers to
publish their papers.

Q. Do they supply the paper ? — A. We supply the paper.

Q. What does your contract cover, that contract that you have to-day? — A. It
covers the requirements of the Toronto Daily Star.

Q. Nothing else? — A. As I understand it, nothing else. The people with whom
the contract is made understand we are buying paper elsewhere for those other papers,
and don't question our right to do that.

Q. What was your reason for not closing at this price? — A. At this price, $2.01
plus 50 cents for duty, would make it $2.51 ; that was not an inducement.

Q. As a matter of fact, you found you could not buy paper in the States any cheaper
than you could get it here ? — A. With the duty added.

Q. Of course, with the duty added, because there is a duty? — A. My complaint is
there is a duty there, under the circumstances.

Q. Keally, what you would like to see done, is the duty taken off or lowered ?^A.
I had no complaint against the duty until the association intervened to influence the
price a year ago last January. I had no complaint against the duty, because I con-
sidered the rate I was then paying was not an exorbitant rate. I think I have been
paying a very exorbitant rate for a year past.

Q. I presume you would be willing to allow the manufacturers a reasonable and
fair profit ? — A. Yes.

Q. You would not expect to get your paper at cost or under cost? — A. I would
expect to get it at the price which the market and which the conditions warranted.

Q. That would include a fair profit to the manxifacturers ? — A. Sometimes a fair
profit and sometimes no profit at all, according to the conditions of the market.

Q. What, in your opinion, would be a fair profit to the manufacturer of paper ? —
A. I would assume, if au American mill, which has to pa.v more for its pulp than the
Canadian mills, can sell at $1.80, that our Canadian mills ought to be able to sell
at less than $2.37*.

Q. And the margin of profit to the Canadian manufacturer, do you think would
be fair and reasonable, — ^we will come to the other question later ? — A. I don't know.

Q. You are not prepared to say ? — A. No.

Q. But you are prepared to admit, that there should be some margin of profit al-
lowed to the manufacturer who has invested a large amount of money in his business ?
— A. I am certainly prepared to say that a man cannot carry on business below the
margin of profit, but quite often a man will sell goods below the margin of profit for
one or two months and make it up some other way at some other time, so that if the
market is left to itself, the manufacturers may ba expected to make a profit, or not
stay in business.

Q. You know the practice is, to make contracts for one year or more ? — A. Yes.
Q. That suited you at the time to make your contract at the same rate < — A. Yes.
Q. Would that be fair to the manufacturers ? — A. Not if the newspaper publishers
iiad an effective combination which prevented any body selling them at a lower price.
Q. You have a Newspaper Association, I understand, a Press Association. There
seems to be associations all around to-day ? — A. It is not effective as to prices.

Q. So that really your complaint is more a question of the duty than of being
barged an exorbitant price by the manufacturer in Canada, is that right ?— A. Yes,
it -would be quite useless to have a grievance against a thing that would not be reme-
died. The grievance here consists in the fact that the price here is so much higher
ihan we can get it for in the open market.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 75

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Yes, but if the result of it coming in from the United States would be to close
up the Canadian mills, would you bo in favour of that? — A. I would be quite in favour
of running the risk.

Q. Do you think it would be in the interest even of the newspapers to have all the
workmen engaged in the manufacture of paper, and the incidental industries such as
cutting out the pulp wood and the manufacture of the pulp, manufacture of chemicals,
&c., all that enters into the production thereof, thrown out of employment for the sake
of giving the newspapers a matter of three or four cents in the price of paper. Would
you advocate that seriously? — A. It would depend a good deal on how the manufac-
turers were getting at three or four cents. If they had combined, I would feel towards
them very much like as I would towards a highwayman that took three or four cents
forcibly out of my pocket, but if I met him on the street, I would say to him : ' You
may have the three or four cents.'

Q. That term 'highwayman' rather grates, you know? — A. Well, I withdraw that.

Q. Let us suppose that the paper you are paying $2.50 for costs $2.25 to manufac-
ture and deliver — it is delivered to you, is it not ?— A. Yes.

Q. And you get a discount of three per cent, would you consider that would be an
unreasonable profit to the manufacturer? — A. It would depend altogether on the out-
put the eaijital required for the output.

Q. Now, just explain how it depends on the outjiut? — A. Ten per cent upon capi-
tal invested of $30,000 is $3,000, but ten per cent on $30,000,000 is $3,000,000 profit.
You see, the profit increases very largely as you increase the capital.

Q. But I suppose, first of all, it is necessary to find the capital? — A. Yes.

Q. Of course, a man must have the capital? — A. Yes.

Q. That involves some previous exertion that you have not taken into account? — •
A. Yes.

Q. What I am asking you is, whether you consider a profit, say of 10 per cent, an
exorbitant and unreasonable profit for the manufacturer to make. Just say yes or no,
if you can? — A. I don't think it is possible to say yes or no to that question.

Q. You have no definite opinion on that subject? — A. No.

Q. You had no complaint when you were paying $2.23 net at that time; there was
no association then? — A. No.

Q. You had all the benefits of indiscriminate competition, and that was the price
it was costing you at that time? — -A. That was upon a rising market.

Q. But still that was the price? — -A. Yes.

Q. And the rising market was not caused by the formation of this association ?
There was a normal rising market? — A. Quite so.

Q. Now, to-day the price net to you of $2.37 J is $2.30 with the discount? — A. I
don't know ; I presume so.

Q. So that the difiterence to you to-day is 7 cents per 100 pounds, is the difference
between $2.23 and the $2.30?— A. Yes.

Q. You consider that most unreasonable? — A. Yes, I consider that the market
to-day is in a very much better position for the purchaser than it was a year ago last
January. When you take into account the market in the United States as well as in
Canada, the market in the United States is in a very much better condition for the con-
sumer to-day than it was then, so that, in my opinion, the $2.30 to-day is more than 7
cents higher relatively than the $2.23 that we had a year ago last January, but that
$2.23 I paid was not the lowest price in Canada. I did not get the best price then.
There were prices much lower than that within a couple of months time, so that the
$2.23 is»not to be taken as a low water mark for non-association prices.

Q. But to-day you are getting a uniform price ? — A. It has the virtue of uni-
)rmity.

Q. Uniform discounts too. Now, you say that $2.23 was not the minimum price ;
it was not the maximum jirice at the time of this contract ? — A. So far as I know, it
was the highest price for paper, consuming anything like the quantity we consume.
I was hurried to a conclusion by the Paper Association over my head.

76 ROYAL COMillSSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. And also by the fact that you knew tliat the market was risiiii; ? — A. The mar-
ket had risen to $2.23.

Q. And was still rising { — A. Well I don't know, I was quite willing at that time
to take my chances on the market rising and get the paper week by week.

EVIDENCE TAKEN AT TOROXTO, 5th JUNE, 1901.

SYDNEY STEPHENSON.

Examined hy Mr. Barwick, E.C. :

Q. You are the proprietor of the Chatham Planet ? — A. Yes.

Q. And are a considerable purchaser of paper, I presume, too ? — A. I buj- in fair
quantities.

Q. You have some knowledge, I suppose, of the workings of this Paper Makers'
Association ? — A. I believe I have had.

Q. Will you be good enough to tell us what the results of your observations as
regards the workings of that association are ? — A. My paper contract expired in the
early part of last year. I was then i>aying $2.10 delivered.

At the expiration of that contract, the next best price I could get was $2.75 and I
had to pay my freight.

Q. That you found was the general price everywhere i — A. That I found was the
general price everywhere amongst manufacturers with whom I had corresisondence, I
also discovered, that my competitor who lives fifty miles beyond me could get his paper
delivered free, whereas my town not being a competitive point we were comijelled to
pay our freight in addition to the regular price of $2.75, which made it very hard upon
publishers like myself.

Q. You are speaking of Windsor i — A. Yes, the paper was delivered, carried
through Chatham, and delivered in Windsor free, but I was compelled to pay the
same price as was arranged by the combination.

Q. Chatham not being an equalization point ? — A. Not an advantageous point.

Q. What was the price you were paying ? — A. Two dollars and ten cents.

Q. To whom ? — A. The Eiordan Mills, of Merritton. I remonstrated with the
paper mills, and the matter was left in abeyance for some time until an answer could
be given to my protest, and I found that they were not able to change the arrangement
that they compelled me to comply with.

Q. That is, the freight arrangement ? — A. Yes.

Q. To whom was that complaint made ? — A. To Mr. Stephenson, a namesake of
mine, no connection.

Q. Who is he ? — A. He is the secretary of the Riordan Paper Company.

Q. Your complaint was made to him ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was that made by correspondence ? — A. Yes.

Q. Have you the correspondence with you ? — A. Yes.

Q. Allow me to see it, please ?

Copy of letter, March 22, 1900, produced, as P — 16. Letter to Jenkins and Hardy.

'Dear Sirs, — I am much surprised to find in the arrangements of your petitions
of delivery of paper, Chatham should have been omitted, when such points as Sarnia
and Windsor have been allowed, when double the quantity of stock is consumed here
each year than at either of the points mentioned.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 77

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

' I would be glad to know the reasons advanced (if any) why such a conclusion
was arrived at, and cannot believe the association is desirous of being a party to such
a manifestly unjust act.'

Letter from Jenkins and Hardy, filed as Exhibit P — IT, as follows : —

' March 22nd, 1900. lie Paper Makers' Association of Canada.

' We beg to acknowledge receipt of your favour of the 22nd instant, which we
■will lay before the association at its next meeting, when the matter will have due at-
tention.'

Letter from Riordan Paper Mills Company produced as Exhibit P — 18, as follows :

' July 10th, 1900. Dear Sir, — Our recent quotation for print paper was for car
lots ; if in less than car lots, price would be 3 cents f.o.b. Windsor. Terms three
months of 3 per cent thirty days.

' Trusting that our figures are acceptable, and to be favoured with your contract.'

Letter to the Eiordan Paper Mills Company, dated July 12, 1900, filed as Exhibit
P — 19, as follows : —

' Deae Sir, — I am just going west, but upon my return will find your answer
awaiting me.

' You say f.o.b. Windsor. Please explain if this means that you will allow me
the same freight as if it was billed to Windsor, and that the paper will be consigned
to this point, and if so, please give me an approximate on a car. I have offers at the
same as you quote from travellers, but I have not discussed the matter with other
parties up to the present.'

Letter to the Riordan Paper Mills Company, dated July 19, 1900, filed as Ex-
hibit P— 20, as follows :—

' Dear Sir, — I would simply look upon such a discrimination as dishonest, and
I can only express my amazement that the manufacturers of paper would be ijarties
in such small-minded legislation. Individually, I can only assume that you opposed
the enforcement of such a measure, and I have yet to meet a single representative
of any paper jnill in Canada who does not ridicule the motion, and say " Our hands
are tied."

' I would rather lose double the amount than to know that I had to submit to
such a ruling, however, I suppose I must submit to the inevitable and await my time
until the tables are turned.'

Letter from the Riordan Paper Mills, dated July 20, filed as Exhibit P — 21, as
follows : —

' Dear Sir, — Tour favour of the 19th instant is received. We quite agree with you
that there should be no discrimination in freight. Some time ago we applied to have
Chatham put on the delivery list, only on your account, as we sell no one but yourself
in Chatham. We are personally taking up this matter, and hope to report success.
In the meantime, we are unfortunately not in a position to allow any different freight.'

Letter from the Riordan Paper Mills, dated August 17, filed as Exhibit P — 22, as
follows : —

' Dear Sir, — We are in receipt of your favoui' of the 16th inst. The oversight on
our part was in failing to advise you, that we could not fill your order by shipping it
to Windsor. We took steps to learn if this could be done, and not violate existing
freight arrangements. We found we could not do so and apparently did not advise you,
as we fully intended doing.

78 ROYAL COMMISSION BE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

' We can sell you in no other way than invoiced, and as we are trying to have Chat-
ham made a delivery town, trust you will appreciate our position in the matter.'

Q. Mr. Stephenson, you do a large job business, I understand? — A. Yes.

Q. Has the Paper Makers' Association affected you in your buying papers for the
jobbing trade? — A. Oh, yes.

Q. Now, tell us in what way; explain that to us? — A. We are buying, of course,
our jobbing papers largely outside of the country. We are buying in England and also
in the States, and really I am not familiar with the current prices of papers in Canada
as perhaps as much as I should be, as I buy very little paper in Canada for the last
year and a half, in consequence of the increase in price.

Cross-examined hy Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Makers' Associa-
tion :

Q. So far as job papers are concerned, you find you can buy all your require-
ments more advantageously outside of Canada than you can here, notwithstanding the
fact that there is an association? — A. Yes.

Q. Now, Chatham to-day is an equalization point, is it not? — A. Within the last
three weeks only.

Q. Is it not a fact that it was changed in January last?— A. No.

Q. You are quite sure of that? — A. I am positive of it.

Q. Have you any other correspondence relating to this matter? — A. My invoices
will bear me out.

Q. I am speaking of correspondence ? — A. No, none that I know of. I think not.

Q. Have you a letter from the Canada Paper Company in January, 1901, advising
you of the change ? — A. I have not. I may have received one, but I am not aware of it.

Q. You don't recollect? — A. Change in freight rates in January?

Counsel : Yes ; making Chatham a delivery point. — A. No, I have not.

Q. I might tell you for your consolation that that is a fact? — A. I think you are
wrong. It is as far as London. I was advised the freight was made to London, not
to Chatham.

Q. Now, when you are dealing so much with the United States in other papers,
I presume you made inquiries as to buying your supply of news print there? — A. I
have not, but I made inquiries as to the current prices of news in the States.

Q. You buy your paper as an ordinary business man would, where you can get
it to the best advantage, and you have contracted for news print in Canada? — A. Yes.

Q. As a matter of fact, your contract is' in Canada ? — A. Yes.

CHARLES N. ROBERTSOX.

Examined hy Mr. Barwich, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. What is your position in the Ottawa Journal ? — A. Secretary- treasurer of
the company and business manager of the Journal.

Q. You have some knowledge of the Paper Makers' Association ? — A. Contracts
for the paper are made by myself for the company.

By Mr. Barwiclc :

I understand Mr. Robertson has written down the position in the form of a letter,
and with your Lordship's permission, I would ask him to read that, and then hand it
in to you. He summarized his evidence with a view of handing it to you.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 79

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

By the Commissioner :

Let him refresh his memory by looking at his notes.

By Mr. Barwich, E.G. :

Q. Tell us what the effect has been. Eead that slowly. — A. The Journal, pre-
vious to the fire of April, 1900, had purchased its paper almost exclusively from the
Eddy Company for some years. The price had gradually been reduced during this
year. During 1896 the price paid was $2.75 per 100 pounds; that is, of course, de-
livered at the Journal office, settlement being made by sight draft. In February,
1897, the price was reduced to $2.65, the settlement being the same, and in June, 1897,
it was further reduced to $2.50. In August, 1897, it was reduced to $2.35, and in
August, 1898, one year afterwards, to $2.30. In October, 1898, the Canada Paper
Company tendered for the Journal's supply of paper at $2 per 100 pounds, net cash,
laid down in Ottawa at the Journal's ofiice. The Eddy Company, through their repre-
sentative, Mr. Hall, verbally tendered at $2.20 less 3 per cent. The Canada Paper
Company's paper on trial did not suit the Journal and the Eddy Company, on the
22nd of November, accepted an offer from us at $2.03 per 100 pounds net cash.

Letter from the E. B. Eddy Company, of November 22, 1898, filed as Exhibit
P— 23, as follows :—

' Dear Sirs, — This is to confirm the contract made between your good selves and
us by your Mr. Robertson and our Mr. Hall this morning, whereby we sell and you
agree to buy from us your full supply of No. 3 news in rolls for one year from this
date (or if you prefer to the end of 1899) ; we to take advertising space in the Jour-
nal to the extent and value of $240 per year, that is, $20 per month, provided your
purchases amount to 200 tons over the year. The two contracts, for paper and for
space, to run concurrently.

' If the foregoing is correct and acceptable to and accepted by you, please so
advise us by return of mail when our advertising department will at once send you
copy for advertisement to be inserted.'

Witness continuing :

The price of $2.03 was to run as per this letter, for one year, and we continued
purchasing paper from the Eddy Company during this year, which ended on Novem-
ber 22, 1899.

At the expiration of the contract, the arrangement was not disturbed and we
continued with the Eddy Company on the same price and terms up to February
14, 1900, when the Eddy Company's' representative, Mr. Hall, called on the Journal
and stated that our contract had expired, as we were probably aware, and that
the Eddy Company would have to ask an increase in price. On being
asked what the price would be, he stated an increase of 10 per cent, bringing the price
up to between $2.20 and $2.25, and that we could obtain a contract for the year at that
price if we wished.

On being asked whether his firm desired to have the matter settled at once, or if
a few days could be given to consider the matter, he intimated that there was no
haste, and being asked to call in two weeks, he stated that he would.

In the interval having been advised that a movement was under way for the forma-
tion of the Paper Makers' Association, which would probably increase the price, we
accepted Mr. Hall's offer as per our letter of February 22, 1900.

This letter is filed as Exhibit P— 24, dated Ottawa, February 22, 1900.

' Mr. Albert E. Hall, The Eddy Co., Hull, Que.

'Dear Mr. Hall: —

' With reference to your request for an increase of 10 per cent in the price of our
paper supply — the undersigned has gone over the matter carefully with our Mr. Ross,

f<0 ROYAL COMMISSION BE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

and we see no occasion, nor have we any desire to look elsewhere for our paper. You
were to call the last of the month or the first of March for our reply. We hope that if
your firm cannot do better by us, you will at least retard for a time the putting of the
price into eilect. When you have put it into effect, if you will call upon us with any
agreement which you desire to have us sign for the year's contract, we will sign it.'

Witness continuing :

In reply to this acceptance we were informed that the offer did not hold good unless
accepted at the time. We endeavoured to bring home to the Eddy Company the fact
that their offer had been made and had been accepted by us in good faith and besides
seeing them, we also wrote them on March 7.

This letter is filed as Exhibit P — 25, from the Journal Printing Company to the
Eddy Company, of date March 7, 1900, as follows: —

• We have your favour of March 5th, and in connection with the conversation 1
had with you yesterday we beg to inclose our business manager's statement as to the
view he took of the offer of your Mr. Hall on February 14th, to contract for our year's
supply of paper at 10 per cent advance, i.e., at $2.23.

' You will readily understand that had we not been perfectly sure that the order
\vas open to acceptance until after March 1st, we would have closed at the time. We
can understand your position when you assure us, that your arrangement with the
Canadian Paper Makers' Association does not admit of your making contracts except
at their rates. We trust that the fact that we accepted your offer in good faith and
that had it not been for your arrangement with the Paper Maksrs' Association, you
would have carried it out, and adding to this your often exiaressed desire to give us everj'
assistance, will permit of your giving us this price, with the sanction of the Paper Ma-
kers" Association, or at any rate a substantial reduction in the present rates. We trust
you (and they on the presentation of the case to them) will take the matter under
favourable consideration. In the meantime, we understand that pending reference to
the Paper Makers' Association, w-e have the option of a contract for a year, at $2.50
per lOO pounds, dating from March 1st., subject to your usual trade and cash discount.'

B,/ Mr. White, K.C. :

Q. You liave personal knowledge of all the matters you are speaking of ^ — A. Yes,
sir. I might add in. that connection, of that dispute that aro.se, was the question as to
whether Mr. Hall's offer should stand open until the 1st of March; he clearly made the
offer so that it would stand open. He said he would call for our answer on the 1st of
March. This was on the 14th of February, at least two weeks before. I looked at the
calendar and asked him if he would call in a couple of weeks. The only object was
to put the evil day off as much as possible.

Q. That is Mr. Hall of the Eddy Company ? — A. Yes, I believe the Paper ilakers'
Association was formed on the 20th of February, and I had information that came to
us through one of the employees of the Eddy Company. We were told this meeting
was being held, and that the prices of paper would very likely go up, and we had better
get an acceptance from the Eddy Company of this open offer, and the acceptance was
sent to them and they stated that the offer was not made good for any length of- time.
It should have been accepted at once, and I said we inclosed with that letter, my state-
ment, the business manager's statement. There is the statement we inclosed to the
Eddy Company.

Statement of the Journal's business manager to the E. B. Eddy Company :

'Ottaw.\. March 7, 1900.

■ Dear Sirs, — On or about February 14th your Mr. Hall called upon us and stated
that since our contract had expired, it would be necessary to increase the price which

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 81

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

we were paying for paper. When asked what the increase would be, he stated 10 per
cent. Upon expressing the hope that the Eddy Company would give us time to look
into the matter and give our answer, he stated that there was no desire to be urgent,
and when it was suggested that he should call in two weeks, being the last day of
February or the first day of March, he agreed to it.

' On going over the matter with our managing director, we arrived at the conclu-
sion that no advantage could be derived by looking elsewhere, and that the increase
was not an unreasonable one. Adding to this our pleasant relations with the Eddy
Company, we concluded to accept the offer, which we did on the 22nd February. Much
to our surprise, however, we were informed that the offer of your Mr. Hall was made
subject to immediate acceptance. Tour Mr. Hall said absolutely nothing about imme-
diate acceptance, but, on the contrary, agreed to call in two weeks. We naturally
presume, as .we think any one else would, under the circumstances, that he would call
for our reply if not sooner received.

' The above facts, added to the fact that had it not been for the agreement reached
on the 20th February by the Canadian Paper Makers' Association, would have resulted
in our obtaining a contract at $2.23, will surely entitle us to consideration at your
hands.'

After sending that letter with the inclosure, both Mr. Ross and myself called on
the Eddy Company. I saw Mr. Rowley and Mr. Eddy together in their office. They
stated that owing to the arrangement entered into with the Paper Makers' Association,
and seeing that our acceptance of their offer did not reach them prior to that time,
and that, in fact, so far as their firm was aware, they had nothing to show that such
an offer was made to us. They, therefore, were compelled to repudiate any offer which
their Mr. Hall might be considered to have made. During the conversation Mr. Eddy
stated that they could not lay themselves open to the penalty which would be imposed
by the Paper Makers' Association for the violation of the agreement, and it was brought
out that that penalty was $1,000.

Now, Mr. Eddy brought this out this way. He did not state islump open that there
was a penalty of $1,000, but on looking around he said : ' Now the price of commodities
have gone up, and besides that, while we value your trade, we are not prepared to for-
feit any sum of $1,000 for the sake of taking you on, and breaking the Paper Makers'
arrangement. The amount of $1,000 was mentioned that time by Mr. Eddy. He did
not mention that it was a fine. He mentioned they were not prepared to forfeit that
amount to get our trade by breaking their rules.

By Mr. Baririch {continuing) :

Q. What you mean to say is you inferred that it was a forfeit of one thousand
dollars ? — A. Yes. The amount of one thousand dollars was discussed afterwards with
the Eddy Company, and they stated there was no fine.

The only conclusion we could arrive at was, since this was only a few days after
their first meeting, the fine must have been arranged by that time, but there was a
plain statement that there would be a fine if they did consider that.

Q. It appears from the evidence yesterday that the fine was $500 ? — A. It was
further stated by Mr. Eddy that there would be no way of covering up the fact that our
acceptance had not reached them prior to the formation of the Paper Manufacturers'
Association, which we understand was formed on the 20th February, and that they
would do nothing to show that an offer had been made us and that this would be shown,
as their business was open to the inspection of duly accredited representatives of the
Paper Makers' Association. The Eddy Company would not bill us until the prices
were fixed by the Canada Paper Makers' Association ; a notice to that effect was sent
us on March 5th.

53—6

82 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Notice referred to is iiled as Exiiibit P— 27, dated Hull, 5th March, 1900, as fol-
lows : —

'Dear Sirs, — Inclosed please find specifications for paper shipped you on the 20th
instant amounting to 5,006 and 4,964 pounds for which we will send you invoice as
soon as the price and terms fixed upon by the Canadian Paper Makers' Association
have been advised to us for this paper product, but you may be sure that not only will
you have as low prices, but the best attention, as prompt delivery and the most favour-
able terms and discount going, for we are, in this as in all other matters, always with
pleasure at your service, and only regret that you did not take advantage of the oppor-
tunity offered on a rising market by contracting for your requirements over the year
with, ' Yours truly,

' THE E. B. EDDY COiCPANY.'

They wrote us on March 10 inclosing the terms.

Letter of March 10, from the Eddy Company, filed as Exhibit P — 28 as follows : —

' Dear Sirs, — Inclosed please find invoice and specifications for shipment of roll
news to you under date of 28th February, 3rd, 6th, and 9th instant, weighing in all
18,780 lbs., which, subject, if you please, to the approval of and confirmation by the
Paper Makers' Association of Canada, or otherwise to necessary alteration and advance
in price we have invoiced you at $2.50, and beg leave to say that as the uniform quantity
price for roll news, as fixed by the C.P.M.A. is $2.50 for car-loads ; $2.75 for two ton
and up lots ; $3.00 for less than two ton lots, with an advance of 25 cents per 100
for similar quantities of ream news and a further advance or extra charge for frames
01 any frames news, we have invoiced you this lot at the minimum price in eifect
for the maximum quantity, and if you please to confirmation of our action in this con-
nection on your behalf, as stated above ; and we have to add that if you are inclined to
do so, we are ready to enter into a contract with you at current prices although tlie
market is steadily advancing, for your requirements over the year 1900, and to say that
if you will name a day when we may call upon you, we will with pleasure do so, mean-
while remaining Yours Truly.

P.vS. — This will serve to confirm the conversation had with you and to acknowledge
your letter of the 7th.'

Witness (continuing). — During all the time we had been getting our paper from
the Eddy Company, it had come up in wagon-loads, the reason being that our office is
situated less than a mile from the place where the paper is made, so no railway facili-
ties would equal the wagon facilities, and, of course, it was developed that we would
require to pay $2.75 if we got it in wagon-load lots, and if we could take it in car-load
lots we could get it at $2.50. We were willing to give an order for car-load lots, but
we wanted it delivered in wagon lots as our storage place was limited. They stated
tliey would deliver it in wagon-load lots, but they would bill us at the car-load lot price,
subject to the ruling of the Canada Paper Makers' Association. The rules were that
they wished to have the paper makers' permission to bill us the car-load price for
wagon-load lots, because wagon-load delivery was the only delivery that could be made
to us in Ottawa, unless they put their wagons on and delivered a full car-load in one
day.

We wrote them on the 12th March asking for information as to how they would
act.

Letter dated March 12, 1900, from the Journal Printing Company, filed as Ex-
hibit P— 29 :—

' Dear Sirs, — We have yours of the 10th March. We understand that you in-
voice at $2.50 per 100 lbs., subject to the permission of the C.P.M.A. to deliver in
wagon-load lots. Also that you are ready to enter into a contract with us at current

MINDTES OF EVIDENCE 83

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

prices for our year's supply. You also intimated in your conversation that the option
to enter into this contract at present current rates would hold till after you got a
decision from the C.P.M.A. as to delivery.

' Please advise us if our understanding of the matter, as above, is correct. In
this event we will be glad to have you inform us as soon as you have the decision of
the C.P.M.A.'

On March 16, we were told by letter that a reply would be retarded until the
return of their managing director who was attending a special meeting. That was
in answer to this letter which has already been filed.

Letter of March 16 from the Eddy Company, filed as Exliibit P — 32, as follows : —

' Dear Sirs, — The reply to your letter of the lith inst. will, if you please, be de-
layed until the return of our managing director, who is at present attending a special
meeting- of the Paper Makers' Association.'

In looking that over, it looked to us this way, that we would bind ourselves to the
■contract of $2.50, and if the Paper Makers' Association ruled that we would require
to take it in ear-load lots, why, we could not do that, and as a result we would be tie-
ing ourselves to pay $2.75. So we wrote them asking further particulars.

Letter March 14, 1900, to the Eddy Company, filed as Exhibit P— 31, as follows :—

' Dear Sirs, — We have yours of the 13th, but it does not make clear to us the
points we desire to be informed on. May we ask your reply to the following : —

' 1. Have we an option of making a contract with you for a year's supply at $2.75
per 100 lbs. in wagon-load lots, or $2.50 in car-load lots, delivered (less 3 per cent
30 days), and will this option hold good till after we hear from you the decision of the
C.P.M.A. with reference to the question of delivery ?

' 2. If the C.P.M.A. decides to permit wagon-load delivery at $2.50, will the amount
■delivered thus previous to their assent be $2.50?

' 3. If they do not assent, and we contract for car-load lot delivery at $2.50, will
what has been delivered to date be at the car-load rate of $2.50?

' 4. If we make a contract for a year with you at present or after we hear from
you re C. P. M. A., and there is a decrease in price during the year, will we get the
benefit of it ?

' 5. When do you expect a decision from the C.P.M.A. ? '

This was the reply which we received from the Eddy Company of the 16th March :

Letter March 16, 1900, filed as Exhibit P— 32, as follows :—

' Dear Sirs, — The reply to your letter of the 14th inst. will, if you please, be delayed
until the return of our managing director, who is at present attending a special meeting
of the Paper Makers' Association.'

While these letters were going backward and forward, we, of course, were trying
to see if we could not get a supply elsewhere in Canada. We tried the Canada Paper
Company, the Riordan Paper Company, and, I believe, the Dominion Paper Company,
Each of them regretted that they could not see their way clear to take us on, although
previously they had been looking for our business.

Q. Have you got these letters ? — A. They were personal calls I made.

Q. Did the representatives of each one of these companies call ? — A. No, I called
■on three paper companies; in March I called on the Canada and the Dominion Paper
•Companies, and the third was Holland, but if I remember right they were not making
No. 3 news at that time.

Q. Now, that is rather interesting about this conversation. I would like to hear
A little more about that? — A. The Canada Paper Company had tendered for our supply
just previous to that. When I called I saw Mr. McFarlane, the manager.
53— 6J

84 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. What was tlieir tender? — A. The tender that had been made a year prrvious
by the Canada Paper Company was $2.

Q. Did they give a later tender? — A. No, because we were under contract all the
time with the Eddy Company.

Q. You went to the Canada Paper Company in Montreal. When was that? — A.
That was in the first few days of March.

Q. Whom did you see ? — A. Mr. McFarlane.

Q. Is he the representative in ilontreal? — A. Yes.

Q. Tell us the conversation you had with him ? — A. We wanted to know why lie
could not take us on. He said that they were full up ; the increased circulation caused
the newspapers by the Boer war had tended to take up all the supply that they had, and
he also intimated that the cost of production may have gone up some, but the trouble
was not so much the cost of production as it was that they had reached the limit of
their capacity.

They were supplying the Star and other papers under contract, and the full pro-
duction of their mill was taken up, and they could not see their way to let us have the
paper at that time, although at the time of the Eddy fire they obliged us with some
paper when we were short.

Q. The Paper Makers' Association was not discussed with Mr. McEarlane? — A.
It was, I think. Yes, I am sure it was, but there was nothing brought out in the con-
versation dealing on this. If I remember, Mr. McFarlane was very careful in his con-
versation.

Q. What was the other company you went to ? — A. I would not be positive. At
the Dominion Paper Company the conversation was of a similar character; that they
had no paper to spare.

Now, during a time, and the days following we had been trying to secure arrange-
ments elsewhere; the Eddy Company intimated to us that they heard we were looking
elsewhere for our paper, and as it seemed to us that it was a case of having to abide by
the Eddy Company, if at all, we wrote them on March 23.

I might state that the Eddy Company seemed to be in possession of the infor-
mation that we had been dickering with the other manufacturers. Of course they did
not say so, but it was the only inference we could draw, and therefore to appease them
we wrote this letter.

Letter March 23 to the Eddy Company, filed as Exliibit P — 33, as follows: —

' Dear Sirs, — In reply to yours of March 22nd, we beg to state that the Journal
does not intend to make arrangements to get its paper from other than the E. B. Eddy
Company pending your reply to our last letter. This reply, we would, of course, like
to have as soon as you are in a position to let us have it in a favourable manner, i.e.,
after the P. M. A. has sanctioned the wagon-load delivery clause.'

Witness (continuing) — Lest it might be thought we were acting unfairly with
them, I may state that we gave them as our intention that we were not looking elsewhere
because we had been looking elsewhere and we could not get any paper in Canada, and
it simply was a case of the Eddy Company or no one else.

Finally their representative called on the 12th of April, and we dictated a letter.
1 might say that their representative who called on us was their head paper-maker, Mr.
Lumley, and not their usual representative, Mr. Hall. Mr. Lumley told me Mr. Kowley
was out of town and the Eddy Company were open for business and if we wished to
make them an offer to purchase paper at the Paper Makers' Association price, he did
not see any reason why they would not contract with us. You will note that they would
not give us a contract at $2.50, but Mr. Rowley was out of town and Mr. Cushman
was there, and Mr. Cushman might undoubtedly accept the offer we might make.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 85

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

The offer we made was this : —

Letter Ajiril 12, to the Eddy Company, produced as Exhibit P — 34, as follows : —

' Dear Sms,— If agreeable to you, we will close a contract with you for twelve
months from date for our full supply of our number three news. Price, two dollars
and fifty cents per 100 pounds, less 3 per cent for 30 day draft. We will have pleasure
in acknowledging your acceptance.'

We received on the 13th of April an acceptaace from them, signed by Mr. Cush-
man, Secretary-Treasurer.

Letter from the Eddy Company to the Journal of April 13, filed as Exhibit
P — 35, as follows :

' Dear Sirs, — We are ia receipt of your proposal for contract for full supply of No.
3 news of the 12th instant to our Mr. Lumley and have pleasure in acknowledging the
acceptance of the contract at prices and terms named by you therein.'

Witness (continuing). — I have a little statement here which I think I will read.
It might not reflect very creditably on the Eddy Company, but it was the only deduc-
tion we could make.

Q. Leave that out. I only want you to state the facts of the case ? — A. We had
been getting our paper from the Eddy Company until the time of the fire, and this
fire occurred on the 26th April, 1900. Of course, this fire destroyed all the plant and
the mill and after that fire we sent out numerous applications for paper, but owing
to the greatly inflated circulation at the time owing to the Boer war, most of the
Canadian paper-makers had the entire output sold. Some of them wanted an increase
in price owing to the shortage caused by this cause, and the wiping out of the Eddy
Company's plant.

C. W. Thompson, of Nevi-burg, agreed to supply us paper at $2.75, less 3 per cent,
30 day draft. This was the terms of the Paper Makers' Association except that he
tacked on 25 per cent additional. He promised to send us a carload on trial first and
we could make a contract afterwards if we desired. The paper was not quite satis-
factory, but it was as good as was available at the time and as he could not supply
us with a carload at one time, it left us free, and we were not obliged to make a con-
tract and tie ourselves indefinitely or for a year, so that we continued taking from him
off and on until the close of September, when, owing to the unsatisfactory supply, we
had to stop taking from him. During all that time he had sent us a carload and we
were obliged to make a contract if we wanted to continue. He had sent us equivalent
of three or four carloads, but they came in small lots. We telegraphed most of the
paper manufacturers at the time of the fire and they did not care to take us on.
Forde and Company of Portneiif said they would come to see us. The senior mem-
ber came to see us after the fire. He said they had been making wall paper and he
stated his machines were fitted up to make No. 3 news, and he said he would switch
over to Xo. 3 as there might be a scarcity of No. 3 in the country and he could make
money on it. I asked him what the terms would be. He shrugged his shoulders and he
said : ' Of course they have to be the terms of the Paper Makers' Association.' He
said : ' We have not been making paj^er, although we belong to them and I will have
to make sure what the terms are,' and I told him what the terms were, so after we told
him the terms, we made arrangements of this character, much the same as with the
Thompson Company, which he accepted.

Letter, April 30, 1900. filed as P— 36, to Forde and Company, as follows :—

' Dear Sirs, — In conformity with the conversation held with your Mr. Forde,
will you please book our order for a carload of No. 3 news to be 38J inches wide and
of a weight such that 100 papers of this width and 23J inches in length (two sheets)
may be obtained out of 13 V pounds.

86 ROYAL COMMISSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

' We will ask you to be so good as to seud us on this order, as soon as possible,
about a dozen rolls, in order that we may try the paper. If we find it satisfactory we
will ask you to send on the balance and it will be understood between us that should
we desire ire may have the privilege of entering into a contract with you for our year's
supply of 38A-inch paper, the price to be $2.50 per 100 pounds, f.o.b. Ottawa, less 3
per cent for thirty-day draft, and this price will also apply to the lot ordered above;
the paper in style and finish to approach that given your Mr. Forde.'

It turned out that this paper was much too heavy. They had not been making
paper and of course, had no expert paper-makers. After they had sent us a provisional
lot, they sent us the balance of the carload. The difficulty was to send us the first
few rolls and not biU the first few rolls at $2.75, but that was gotten over by giving
an order for a carload, of which they sent out first a few rolls.

During the month of August, 1900, the Eiordan people started supplying us with
paper at $2.50, less 3 per cent, and we continued taking from their mill until Decem-
ber or January of 1901. Their supply was very unsatisfactory, and they stated that
the trouble was with the lack of water. I believe there was a short supply from the
Welland canal for one of their mills, and they sent us several very nice letters regret-
ting that they could not overcome it and hoped we could overlook the matter, but one
day when I was away from the office, we ran short of paper, and Mr. Ross cancelled
the contract.

We had been approached several times by the Laurentide Company, and as late as
December, 1900, their representative, Mr. Gascoigne, called on us and wished to know
if we were at liberty to make a contract. We stated we were at liberty to make a con-
tract. We said that the Riordan Company had failed in carrying out their obligations
and that if we wished to cancel that contract, we could. So, when I told Mr. Gas-
coigne we were at liberty to make a contract if we desired, he wanted to know if the
price would not interest us, and I asked him whether the price would be different from
that of tlie Paper Makers' Association, and he said they could make a price different
from the Paper Makers' Association, the reason being that they were not members
of the Paper Makers' Association, and he was feeling around to see whether we would
likely make a contract, and I was feeling around to see what the price would be, and
he wished to know whether I could not make a contract now, and I told him the Rior-
dan people, had treated us very well and I did not feel like cutting them off short with-
out another little trial, and when he heard thfit he said : ' You must not consider this
is a quotation, but' he said, ' I would advise you to make arrangements now if you
are going to make an arrangement.' He said : ' Mr. Alger has been approached several
times to enter the Paper Makers' Association, but has not as yet joined, but I think
he will join shortly.' He is the manager of the Laurentide Pulp Company. He said :
' I think he will join shortly and of course if he does join the prices will be the prices
of the Paper Makers' Association, and you will lose your opportunity of getting it at
a lower rate.'

I did not close with him at the time, and I asked him after whether he did not
join the Paper ^takers' Association, whether the price would go up. The price did not
go up but became cheaper in fact, as the eircvilation of the papers was falling off and
he said : ' No, if they join, they would require to hold to the arrangement ; that there
was a fine imposed for not holding to the arrangement, and ' he said, ' Of course, if
-the Laurentide joined they would not be bothered by the fine, but they woidd want to
live up to the rules of the Paper Makers' Association.'

Finally, at the end of January, when we broke with the Riordan people because
they let us run short on two occasions and we had no paper, we entered into correspond-
ence with the Laurentide Company, and as a result made a contract, and of course,
this contract had to be at the Paper Makers' price, because they were then members of
This is a side issue, I might say, that we had tried at the time of the fire to get paper
This is a side issue, I might say, that we had tried at the time of the fire to get paper
from the American manufacturers. We wrote several and we could not get any reply.

MIXUTES OF EVWEyCE M"

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

That would indicate that we could not get paper over there. We wrote two firms in
Watertown, which afterwards apparently turned out to be controlled by the Inter-
national Paper Company.

We wrote three times to the International asking them because all these mills
directed us to the International, but we got no reply in answer to the three letters we
wrote them.

I mentioned this to Mr. Alger once, and the only reply I got was a smile. I asked
him the significance of the smile, and he said they would not come into Canadian terri-
tory, and it did not bother the Laurentide Company at that time because they were
shipping almost exclusively to the British market.

I might add that of the various letters submitted, originals to those produced are
iu this letter book if they are required.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Wliitej K.C., representing the Paper Makers' Associa-
tion:

Q. You have no further letter from the InteruationaH — A. No, sir. We wrote
them three times but got no reply.

Q. How long have you been in your present position as manager ? — A. Between
foiir and five years. I have been with them about eight years.

Q. Tou know the Journal, or the representatives of the Journal, are members of
the Press Association of Canada ? — A. Yes, sir, I am a member of the association and
30 is Mr. Ross.

Q. And you have been active iu the legislation which has led to this Commis-
sion ? — A. Mr. Ross has taken a more active part. He is the proprietor, iiractically, df
the Journal.

Q. Does the Journal Company do job work as well as newspkper ? — A. Nothing
but newspaper, and we use nothing but No. 3 news in rolls.

Q. Now, these facts that were stated to you by Mr. McFarlaue, that the supply of
laper in Canada was running short, that the demand had been greatly increased by
the consumption of the newspapers owing to the war, etcetera ; you have no reason to
doubt these facts, have you ? — A. No. sir. not ttiat the supply was fully taken up ; v.e
have no reason to doubt that. I have no doubt that the statement made by Mr. McFar-
lane that all the available paper which the manufacturer produced was taken up on
account of the inflation of newspapers.

Q. Why did you say that within a very short time afterwards the Canada Paper
Company were able to supply you ? — A. They were very kind to us at the time of
the fire. They shipped us four or five rolls by express to get our next issue out. We
bought various lots at three cents.

Q. Was it not told you that they could not take a regular contract at that time ;
that this was a matter of accommodation simply ? — A. I believe they probably said
that.

Q. And how much did you get altogether ? — A. I could not state positively, but
luring that time I think it was over a carload ; probably less.

Q. You might state the circumstances under which you ordered this carload ;
how did you order it ? — A. We telegraphed for some, and we wrote for others, and I
svas in Montreal, I think, and saw Mr. McFarlane about it. He was particular to ex-
plain that they wanted our contract, and wanted it very badly, because he stated the
supply of paper for newspapers would not be so large very soon and he wanted to take
us on. iVnd he said finally that the trouble was not so much the question of cost as
it was a question of having all their capacity taken up by present' contracts.

Q. What other inquiries did you make at that time ? You say th;-,t you saw repre-
sentatives of various paper companies about March, 1900 ? — A. March or April, along
that time.

Q. Did you make any other inquiries as to getting your supply from other manu-
facturers besides those you saw ? — A. We wrote and telegraphed quite a number of
places, but the reply, as a rule, was : ' full tip.'

88 ROYAL COMillSSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Why did you go to the RoUand Company ? — A. We had never any dealings with
them, but I wanted to know if they manufactured No. 3 news.

Q. And you found out they did not ? — A. Not at that time ; they stated they
could if we wanted it and were willing to pay the price.

Q. What did you pay the Canada Paper Company ? What did you pay for your
supply of paper after the fire ? — A. We paid three cents for a small lot they billed
us at $2.75. And Thompson, he stated he could sell all his output especially after the
Eddy fire because the requirements of the paper ia Canada, at least, the visible quan-
tity was suddenly cut short and everybody was bothering him for paper.

Q. Is it not a fact that you found from your inquiries that th^; ruling price for
this No. 3 news in Canada was higher than the prices that had been fixed by the
Paper Makers' Association ? — A. No, sir, because just previous to the Paper Makers'
Association, in fact, at the very time of the Paper Makers' Association

Q. I am speaking of the time you bought after the fire occurred. I ask you if you
did not find that the ruling price was higher than the prices fixed by the Association,
that is, $2.50 with 3 per cent off ? — A. Immediately after the fire it was, but not at
the time the Paper Makers' Association was formed, because we had an offer at the
time it was formed at a lower rate and that was jumped up because the Paper Makers'
Association was formed.

Q. Are you prepared to make that statement that it was purely because the Papeif
Makers' Association was formed ? — A. Yes, sir, the Eddy Company told us that they
would be glad to make a contract with us, but they could not on account of the price
of the Paper Makers' Association.

Q. Is it not a fact in your experience that the price previous to the organization-
of the Paper Makers' Association had been steadily advancing, say for a year, or
six months ? — A. Not in our experience.

Q. You are sure of that ? — A. I am sure.

Q. WTiat was your contract immediately before that ? — A. Our contract was
$2.03 net, but that contract expired in November.

Q. What was the offer made you in November when your contract expired ; you
looked around to make another contract ? — A. Our contract expired in November,
and they never touched us.

Q. What offer did you get then ? — A. They told us the increase would be 10 per
cent, that the price was going up ; they were at liberty to curtail that contract and
they did not do so.

Q. Wlien was the price advanced to $2.23 ? — A. On the 14th of February, and they
gave us ten days, through their representative, to consider it. On the 20th of February
the Paper Makers' Association was formed and within three days we %vere told we could
not contract except at $2.50.

Q. What I want to know from you is, whether it is not a fact that at the time the
Association was formed that the price of paper was advancing, that you know it ? — A.
The only thing we have to go on, the only thing we know is that they told us.

Q. The inference is quite clear, if you don't want to admit it, you need not. It
is quite clear from what you stated that the price was advancing in February, 1900.
You know, as a matter of fact, that the price was advancing ; that was a rising mar-
ket ; you have spoken of it as a rising market ? — A. The surest test of tliat was that
we were willing to close this contract at 10 per cent advance.

Q. You did not close at that time ? — A. We closed within one week of that time.
You merely asked for nay experience and I have told you from my experience.

Q. I presume that facts stated in your letters are correct ? — A. Yes.

Q. Well, the letters speak for themselves ? — A. Yes.

Q. You were present, you say, at a conversation, or you had an interview with
Jlr. Rowley, I think, about this question ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was Mr. Ross present then, too ? — A. Yes.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 89

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. And what was said about the association, the formation of this Paper Makers'
Association ? — A. Do you wish what was said on both sides or on one side ?

Q. Take it on Mr. Eddy's side. Was any statement made by Mr. Eddy as to the
reason for organizing the association, its object, etcetera '< — A. ilr. Eddy stated tliat
while they had not so much trouble with No. 3, in other lines they had trouble, and
it was simply a coming together of the manufacturers to create more stability in the
market, in order to arrive at a standard of prices, so that they would not be cutting
Diie another right along.

Q. Did he make any statement to you as to the amount of profits, etcetera, what
amount of profit was put on by the association, the manufacturers' cost ? — A. Not that
I remember ; I don't think so.

Q. You have had considerable business experience ? — A. My business experience
has been entirely with the Journal.

Q. Have you never been a manufacturer at all ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Have you ever had occasion to know what a fair advance on the cost of produc-
tion is to the manufacturer ; what percentage of profit should be allowed ? — A. If I
have had experience ?

Counsel. — Yes ? — A. No.

Q. Do you know what is considered a fair margin of profit ? — A. The chief bother
[ have had was getting them as cheap as I could get them.

Q. No matter whether the manufacturer lost money or not ? — A. If he was willing
to sell I was willing to buy.

Q. You have no opinion of what would be a fair advance on cost for manufac-
turers' profit '( — A. No, sir, I have been too busy, and if you know what the busy end
oi a newspaper is, — I have been too busy, and I have not had time to study these ques-
tions.

Q. Did you make any inquiry as to the prices of newspaper in the United States
and elsewhere in connection with these searches ? — A. No, sir, wf liad no time to do
that.

Q. Have you made any investigation since as to whether you could obtain your
paper cheaper elsewhere ? — A. No sir. Mr. Ross has.

Q. You have no knowledge of the prices ruling in the States ? — A. Nothing more
than I have read in the papers. Periodicals like 'Printer's Ink,' and so forth.

Q. You have no personal knowledge ? — A. No business knowledge at all.

James Hardy.
Examined hy Mr. Barwick. K.C., represeuiing ihe Press Association :

Q. You are Mr. Hardy, of Jenkins and Hardy, the secretary-treasurer of the
Paper Makers' Association ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Custodian of all its papers ? — A. Yes.

Q. Eecipient of all deposits ? — A. Yes.

Q. I presume that you are the active man of the firm ? — A. Yes.

Q. Of the Jenkins and Hardy firni ? — A. Yes.

Q. You are the great ilogul of this agreement that deals with the question of
fines and so on ? — A. The agreement speaks for itself.

Q. You are the Czar. When was this agreement formed ? — A. It was reorgan-
ized on the twentieth of February.

Q. When did you connection with the association begin ? — A. A^ that date.

Q. You brought about the reorganization, yes ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Wlio brought it about ? — A. Well, I don't know. There was a meeting in
Montreal and I happened to be in Montreal some time previous to that and they asked

90 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

me if I would mind going upstairs and seeing those gentlemen and explaining certain
things to them. They asked me to come up.

Q. And the arrangement whereby you became secretary-treasurer of the company
or of the association was made then ? — A. Nothing until the 21st of February.

Q. It was discussed then i — A. Well, they were meeting.

Q. When was the meeting held, that meeting which you are speaking of, in
Montreal to which you were invited upstairs ? — A. Some time previous to that ; per-
haps two or three weeks.

Q. How many were present at that meeting ? — A. About six or seven.

Q. And was the question of promoting the agreement discussed at that meeting? —
A. No, sir.

Q. It was not ? — A. No.

Q. Mutual defence and support was the subject of the discussion ? — A. They had
nn association since 1S88, I think was the time, and they had let it lapse through not
jiroperly prosecuting the objects of it, and they asked me if I would be willing to go in
and take the secretaryship of that association,, if it was put on a proper basis.

Q. And run the association for them ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was any record kept of the meeting ? — A. No, sir, not that I am aware of.

Q. Were any records kept of the meetings of the association after the execution
of this agreement i — A. Yes.

Q. Wliere are they ? — A. In my charge.

Q. I would like to see them, please ?

Mr. White, K.C. — I object to the production of the minutes. If my learned
friend will state what information he wants on that, we will furnish it, but going into
the minutes, it seems to me, is going too far. Your Lordship will start on the pre-
sumption that my clients are, as it were, innocent, that the Association is perfectly
innocent and it is being carried on strictly under the terms of the law, and the first proof
my learned friend should make, it seems to me, is to prove that the price is unreasonable.
Then, it seems to me, if your Lordship finds that it might perhaps be contempt to go
into the private affairs of the association, but, here are a number of manufacturers
as it is admitted, who have joined themselves together under an agreement which was
Iiroduced and the objects of the Association are very clearly set out in the agreement.

So far as the prices are concerned, it is simply to maintain a fair and proper
price. The object of the association shall be the promotion of friendly business rela-
tions amongst manufacturers, their agents, &c., for mutual aid.

It is an organization of these gentlemen together for their mutual support, and it
would he hardly right in a public investigation of this kind that the affairs of that
association should be disclosed unnecessarily.

I submit, if there is anything pertinent to this inquiry that my learned friend
desires to show, if he would state what it is, that extracts could be furnished, but to go
on fishing through the whole of the books of this association, I think would be unjust
and unfair.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — Thrt is just the position I started with yesterday, my Lord,
that I did not want to be put into. We are not here as prosecutors. We are here to
investigate into the question as to whether this association is unduly enliancing the
value.

The Cosimissioneb.— You are not the prosecutor but you are the complainants.

Mr. B.\R\vicK. — Originally we went to the Governor General in Council, and the
Governor General in Coimcil has reason to believe that this association exists through
the complaint made, he has reason to believe that this association does exist. Now, I
have no desire to make public the affairs of the association at all, but I do propose, and
I ask your Lordship if you were conducting an examination, as sometimes these investi-
gations are conducted, to send for these books, to examine these books to see what the

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE gr

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

object of the association is and what this association is doing. There is not the
slightest doubt as it appears that it is to fix a price, below which paper makers shall not
go.

The Commissioner. — I have no doubt that this court, constituted as it is, is entitled
to see the minutes and take cognizance of them. Of course, the court would not make
the whole contents of the minutes public.

I am commissioner here and in fact, it is part of my duty to examine and see
this myself, and I will be the judge as to what part of the contents will be given over
to publicity.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — That is what I propose to do, and I will show my learned.
friend everything.

The CoM5nssioxER. — Take communication of these minutes and see what will be-
pertinent to the inquiry.

Mr. White, K.C. — I think my learned friend wants to prove the prices.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — I want to see the objects of the association.

Mr. White, K.C. — My learned friend can only touch this association in so far
as it affects his clients. Well, now, the object of this inquiry is limited to whether
this Association has unduly enhanced the price of paper; that is whether they are
charging more than is a reasonable and fair price.

Tiiu Commissioner. — The inspection of the minutes is necessary for that purpose,
to show anything.

Mr. White, K.C. — To show the prices.

The Commissioner. — I cannot foresee what I might see in these minutes.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — I want to know whether this question that was referred to in
the Exhibit P — 25, that referred to the Journal, whether that reference was made to
him. I want to know what questions were referred to the association, what decision
they made upon that. I want to see all their decisions. I wish Your Lordship to see,
not what the objects of the association are, but what this association in truth has been
doing. That is where I propose to go on a fishing inquiry, and I, of course, will keep
faith and make nothing public which does not manifestly bear on the face of the
iuqtiiry.

The Commissioner. — My duty is to require the production of the minutes and
see what in the minutes can be pertinent to this inquiry or not.

Mr. White, K.C. — I respectfully submit that there should be at least a prima facie
mse made out by my learned friend. All the evidence has shown that there is a uniform
price fixed ; that is the only complaint.

The complaint is that this price has been uniform. That since the association,
was formed the clients of my learned friend could not obtain their paper for $2.50.
Well, now, the question at issue is, whether it is a fair price or not ; whether it is a
reasonable price.

The Commissioner. — I would not decide that point now, whether the case is made
out as regards the existence of this combination. That will be the first part of my re-
)ort. The second part will be what the effect may have been of that organization.

Mr. Wiirnc. K.C. — I think your Lordship will assume that this organization is
properly organized. Xow, why should the details be submitted to my learned friend and
brought out in this inquiry unless they are pertinent to the issues we are investigating.

The Commissioner. — Counsel present in this inquiry are considered as part of the-
court. Everything examined by the counsel is supposed to be examined by the com-
missioner himself. We are all members of the same court. Counsel assist the court

92 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

in this investigation, and everything that is communicated to the commissioner must
be communicated to the lawyer.

Mr. BakwicKj K.C. — And not necessarily to the parties I represent ?

Mr. White^ K.C. — I daresay any extracts can be produced from these minutes. It
is not the desire to conceal anything, but simply in justice to my clients, I think the
dealings of a number of gentlemen who have met together, as a perfectly legal and
lawful association, should not be disclosed unnecessarily.

The Commissioner. — The same rule will apply as in other cases. The books are
put before the court, and of course the court is judge whether any extracts are allowed
in the case. The same rule applies here.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — More, my Lord. I want to go further, and for your Lordship
to satisfy yourself as to what they have been doing with the fines.

Mr. White, K.C. — There have been no fines, as a matter of fact.

(Recess).

Mr. White, K.C. — In regard to the minutes, we have agreed that the full minutes
shall be placed before your Lordship, and that you will make what extracts you re-
quire, or make such use of the minutes as you need. I submitted the whole thing to
Mr. Barwick, and he has not made any selections of extracts, but there are certain
matters, which I presume don't interest the commission.

Mr. Barwick, K.C. — I would like to place the whole minute book in your Lord-
ship's hands, and ask your Lordship's permission that the book should be handed back
to Mr. White when you are through with it. I think the whole issue of the association
afiects this very question. Wliat we have agreed upon doing is that it shall not go on
the record, only such extracts as your Lordship thinks are necessarj'.

The Commissioner. — Mr. Walker will take charge of it, and I will look at it in
Montreal.

Mr. White, K.C. — We will furnish a copy, certified by Mr. Hardy.

By Mr. Barwick. K.C, continuing examination :

Q. This book contains a copy of all the proceedings of the association ? — A. Yes.

The Commissioner. — I will probably order copies to be made of such extracts as
may be pertinent to the inquiry.

Mr. White, K.C. — I will give your Lordship communication of all the minutes.

Mr. Barwick, K.C, continuing :

Q. Mr. Hardy, how much money did you receive in deposit by the members of
the Association of Paper Makers ? — A. Six thousand dollars ($6,000.)

Q. You hold that still ? — A. I hold five thousand seven hundred dollars of it.

Q. The minute book that you produce to-day contains records of all the proceed-
ings of the association l — A. Everything.

Q. Some fines were imposed upon members of the association for committing
a breach of this agreement, P — 4, and afterwards remitted, I think ? — A. Yes.

Q. As I understand from your explanation to me during the recess, you have never
exacted the payment of a fine from any member of the association ? — A. Never.

Q. And the reason for that is, that there has never been any breach of the estab-
lished conditions of the agreement, P — i ? — A. Never beyond the one instance, where
it was remitted.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 93

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Thiit was remitted ; it was established, and on appeal from you to the associa-
tion at a meeting the fine was remitted ? — A. Yes.

Q. But you under this agreement, P — 4, you personally possessed the power to fine
any member of the association, and resort to that money which you held in your hand
for payment of the fine ? — -A. Yes.

Q. And that power you possess to-day ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you in any way connected with any paper company ? — A. No.

Q. You are chosen as an outside individual, independent, who will fairly and
rigorously carry out the terms of that agreement without fear, favour or aifection ? —
A. Yes.

Q. And that is why you were chosen ? — A. Yes.

Q. Now, you gave me during the recess also, a statement of the sales of paper in
Canada during 1900 ?— A. Yes.

Q. As 30,340 tons ?— A. Yes.

Q. What kind of paper was that ? — A. Print and wall paper.

Q. Your figures do not describe which is print and which is wall ? — A. No.

Q. These are the figures you gave me and these you understand are the correct
figures of the sales in Canada of paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. Manufactured by Canadian mills ? — -A. Yes.

Q. Have you any knowledge, Mr. Hardy, of a contract made by the Canada Paper
Company with the Montreal Star ? — xV. No, sir.

Q. In 1899 ?— A. No, sir.

Q. You don't know that ? — A. No, sir.

Q. You have never been told that ? — A. I have been told there was such a contract.

Q. Have you been told what the figui'es were ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Do you know whether tlie figures were under two dollars ? — A. I don't know.

Cross-examined hy Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper MaJcers' Asso-
ciation :

Q. Mr. Hardy, you were present at the first meeting of the association as re-
organized under the agreement of February, 1900 ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were any statements made in your presence or reasons given for the reorgani-
zation or the necessity of it ? — A. Yes.

Q. What was the object) ? — A. It was imperative by reason of the increase in the
price of raw material, and that in the past there had been competition, and everyone
lost money on all their sales.

Q. What was this meeting you attended ; was it the meeting of tiie Paper Makers'
Association of Canada ? — A. I understand it was.

Q. Have you any information as to the previous existence of that association ? —
A. I now produce as Exliibit P — 37 the constitution and by-laws of the Paper Trade
Association of Canada, as printed in 1886.

Q. It was a meeting of this association that you were invited to attend in February,
or shortly prior thereto, 1900 ? — A. I think it was.

Be-examined hy Mr.' Barwich, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. This document P — 37 is the printed constitution and by-laws of the Paper
Trade Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. And the operations of that association were not successful in preventing one
paper company underselling another ( — A. I think there was some dispute between
the members. That was the reason I was given.

Q. There was some dispute as to the personnel of the officers ? — A. I think so.

Q. The powers of fining being invested in a gentleman who was actually connected
with one of the mills ? — A. I don't know, I am sure.

Q. You understood one of the officers who possessed the power of fining for breaches
of the rules was connected with a paper company, and on that ground there was objec-

■94 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

ition to his possessing these powers. That is why you substituted an independent man ]
— A. I don't know that. I would not say that.

Q. What would you say about that ?— A. All I was told was there was some dis-
pute among two of the paper makers, and one of them said he would not be bound by
that constitution.

Q. So long as the gentleman named among the officers held that position ? — A.
They did not give me that information. What I understood, there was some disagree-
;ment or difficulty between two of them.

Q. Two of them, one of them being an officer ? — A. I think so.

Q. So that officer, the powers he possessed are now possessed by you under this new
agreement ? — A. Well, I don't know.

Q. Well, the powers of fining as he possessed before are now vested in you ? — -A.
I don't know.

Mr. White, K.C. — I think that appears by the agreement.

By Mr. White, E.C.:

Q. Will you produce the list of the members of the Paper Makers' Association of
'Canada ? — A. I now produce as Exhibit P — 38 the list of members of the Paper Makers'
Association in good standing, as having paid their contributions to the funds of the
association.

Q. Does this list represent the members of the association since the organization of
the association in February, 1900 ? — A. Yes.

Q. These are the only members ? — A. These are the only members.

By Mr. Barwick, K.C. :

Q. Mr. Hardy, do you know anything of this arrangement whereby paper makers
who were members of this association were to receive six dollars a ton on paper ex-
ported ? — A. Yes.

Q. What do you know of it ? — A. I know that there was an arrangement made
which was never carried out.

Q. Was that agreement made in your association ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Discussed in the association ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q'. But never erried out in the association ? — A. Never carried out.

Q. What was the proposal, Mr. Hardy ? — A. That those who exported paper
■should receive $4 a ton instead of having to close down their mills two days a week.
The production of ijaper was so much in excess of what the Canadian trade could take
that it was discussed whether it would be better to pay that amount to the people who
would export it or to close down their mills practically one-third of their time.

Q. And that four dollars a ton was to be paid by the members who did not ex-
port ?— A. Yes.

Q. And that was the pro rata, I suppose, by the non-exporters ? — A. Yes.

Q. Is that proposed under discussion now or has it been adjourned, or has it fallen^
i;hrough altogether ? — A. Fallen through altogether.

By Mr. White, K.C. :

Q. Do you know how that rate of $4 a ton was arrived at? What was the reason
fri.lng it at that particular figure ? — A. It was the freight they had to pay to come to
these equalization points, and they thought it better to pay it in order to get to the
-.railway companies in Canada.

Q. Who were to be the exporters ? — A. The mills near by.

Q. Near to the shipping point ? — A. Yes.

Q. And the rate of $4 a ton was supposed to compensate the freight ? — A. Yes, sir.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 95

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

EVIDENCE TAKEN AT MONTREAL, 3rd JULY, 190L

JOHN R. BARBER,

Examined hii Mr. White, K.G., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso-
ciation :

Q. How long liave you been in the paper business ? — A. Since 1856.

Q. As a manufacturer ? — A. I followed my father in business.

Q. Are you a member of the Paper Makers' Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. Do you know when this association was formed ? — A. It was a great many
^ears ago ; I don't remember how far back, probably about twenty years. I should
think eighteen or twenty years ago.

Q. Of course you have naturally followed the price of paper and the price of the
Taw material ? — A. Yes.

Q. You are aware also that under the association certain prices have from time
to time been fixed ? — A. Yes.

Q. What was the minimum price &xed by the association a year ago ? — A. Two
dollars and fifty cents roll news.

Q. And the discount ? — A. Three per cent, no change was made in the discount
whatever, but the time was shortened ; one month — it used to be four mouths, three
IK-r cent oft', but it was changed to three months, three off.

Q. Prior to February, 1899, the ruling price had been below that ? — A. Yes, below
$2.50.

Q. Now, can you give the commissioner any idea as to the percentage of profit
tliere would be in the manufacture of roll news at a minimum price of $2.50 ?

Witness. — At what date ?

Counsel. — In February, 1899.

A. I have submitted sheets. I think you have a copy of them. I wish to put
these in.

Mr. White. — Mr. Barber has prepared some data, your Lordship, which he has fur-
nished us, giving the details of his own business which will be submitted to your
Lordship as the letters were previously, that is not made public. It seems to me the
cost, &c., of his business should not be disclosed.

Witness. — I would be very glad to show them to the printers who are making
this complaint, but not to other paper makers.

Mr. WiiiTi:, K.C. — Your Lordship ruled that we might do that in the case of cer-
tain letters which were produced. They were communicated to the counsel on the
other side, but not to the public.

Q. Do you remember, Mr. Barber, what was the price of paper, that is roll news,
say in December ?

Witness. — Would you allow me to use these sheets ?

Counsel. — Yes, say in December, 1898, before the agreement of the Association
was signed.

A. The market price which we sold Glohe roll news at was $2.40 a hundred. That
was in 1898.

Q. And the discount was what ? — A. Three per cent.

Q. The same discount ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was that in large quantities ? — A. Yes, car-loads. Any quantity I wish to put
in there.

96 ROYAL COMillSSIOy HE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. What was the price in 1S99, the next year ? — A. It went down to $2.10. That
is Eddy was supplying it at $2.10. I could not make it at that price. It got down be-
low a price at which I could sell it at a profit I had an option of selling paper to the
Glohe at $2.10, but I could not sell it. It was below the cost of production.

Q. Have you a contract with the Gloie by which you could deliver it in tmliuiited
quantities ? — A. Yes, there was an open contract with the Glohe to put in any iiaper
1 had to spare.

Q. And these were the prices ? — A. Yes.

Q. Then in 1900 what was the price ? — A. In 1899 the association price was $2.50.

Q. It was along about that date, February, 1900, was the date that they signed the
new agreement ? — A. Yes. Of course a great change took place in the cost of raw
material between 1S99 and 1900.

Q. What was the difFerence ? — A. There was the difference to make up between
$2.10 and $2.50.

Q. Sufficient to make up the difference ? — A. Yes.

Q. Can you give some of the prices of the raw material ? Take pulp for instance.
Can you give the price of ground pulp in 1898 and 1899 ? — A. In 1898 my contract
for ground wood was $18.00 per ton and sulphide pulp $34.00 per ton. Of course there
are two ingredients for making newspapers. The price of one was $18.00 per ton, and
the other $.34.00 per ton. Last year my contract for ground wood was $23.50 per ton,
an advance of $5.50. and sulphide $42.00 a ton, an advance of $8.00 a ton. Besides the
coal advanced from $1.60 at International Bridge, to $2.40, an advance of 80 cents on
coal. It takes a ton of coal to make a ton of paper as near as possible.

Q. And as to pulp, how much does it take to make a ton of paper ? — A. The usual
lalculation is 75 pounds of ground wood.

Q. Was there any change in the price of chemicals between 1899 and 1900 ? — A.
No great change in the price of chemicals. Of course there was a great demand for
news paper in the United States, which put the price up in Canada, but the change
did not affect the cost of newspapers anything further than making the suluhite pulp.

Q. Did the price of paper advance between the years 1898 and 1900 ? Advance
proportionately to the price of raw material ? — A. Ko. The advance in Canada more
than equalled one-half the advance in the United States on account of the cost of
raw material.

Q. What had been the advance in the United States ? — A. Paper in the United
States advanced from about $1.80. That was the lowest price at which contracts were
made, up to about $2.75, for the same newspapers, an advance equal to about one cent
1 pound. The advance in Canada was less than one half cent a pound during 1900.
If there had been no association, the paper going into the United States could be sold
at more in the United States under association prices than we eoidd sell in Canada
at.

Q. Was there a great demand for paper in the United States ? — A. Yes, a dem.and
that could not be supplied both in the United States and England.

Q. Were you selling over the association prices here in Canada ? — A. Yes.

Q. You were actually getting more than the association price ? — A. Yes, for
nearly all my output.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. You were a manufacturer, I suppose, in all lines of paper, Mr. Barber ? — A.
Not all lines — cheap books and newspapers.

Q. Not all confined to what they call news print ? — A. No.

Q. And you find one line more profitable than the other ? — A. Yes, I find the book
line much more profitable.

Q. But you would not be able to confine yourself altogether to that line ? — A. No,
the market is growing.

Q. But it is not enough to keep you going altogether ? — A. No.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 97

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. So you have to devote some of your capital to the manufacture of news print
that you have found less profitable than the other line ? — A. My mill was at one time
all book print, but I am changing as much as I can.

Q. How is your company operated ? By yourself ? — A. My own property.

Q. Nobody else interested but yourself ? — A. No.

Q. And it has been so operated for what length of time ? — A. The first mill started
running in 1856. There are two mills ; one started in 1856 and the other in 1858.

Q. Then you built another mill when ? — A. 1858.

Q. You have operated these two mills continuously since 1858 ? — A. Yes.

Q. A period of over forty years ? — A. Yes.

Q. Not at a loss, I suppose ? — A. No.

Q. Then, has there been during all that time protective duty on the output I — A.
Yes, ranging from fifteen to twenty-five per cent.

Q. Twenty-five at present ? — A. Yes.

Q. That is the highest it has been during that period of forty years ? — A. Yes.

Q. And it has been as low as fifteen per cent ? — ^A. Yes.

Q. In the old days you did not use the wood pulp at all ? — A. No.

Q. And when did the use of that begin ? — A. It is perhaps twenty years.

Q. Prior to that what did you use instead of wood pulp ? — ^A. Straw and rags.

Q. Was it found that the use of the wood instead of straw or rags cheapened the
cost of production ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Very largely ? — A. Thirteen cents a pound down to two and a half.

Q. And were there any other notable events in the history of the art of paper
manufacturing during the last forty years in the way of cheapening the cost of pro-
duction ? — A. Yes, manufacture of pulp by the sulphite process.

Q. That also worked a great cheapening ? — A. Yes, that made a great change.

Q. Were there improvements in the method of manufacture during that time ? —
A. Yes, the machinery is made to run faster, reducing the cost of labour considerably.

Q. And in various ways then there has been a gradual cheapening during the
last forty years in the cost of production ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was there any association among paper makers until about twenty years ago
that you were aware of ? — A. No, sir, because the paper makers were short. The de-
xnand always exceeded the supply.

Q. When that association was formed had it any written constitution or was
any outline made of its objects ? — A. As I remember it the first association was organ-
ized for the purpose of fixing the price on news as has been done recently. That was
fixed at seven cents a pjund.

Q. And that price ruled for some time until it gradually became less and less year
by year as the cost of the production decreased ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was the purpose for which the Association was originally formed as you-
understand it ? — A. Yes.

Q. And the association in the course of years fell into disuse pretty much ? — A.
Yes, the demand exceeded the supply.

Q. Of course when the paper demand exceeded the supply there was no necessity
of having fixed prices ? The association was only called for when there was excess
of supply over demand ? — A. Yes.

Q. To prevent competition — reducing of prices too much ? — A. Yovi might put
it in that shape.

Q. Then for how many years before 1900 when the association was revived had it
been practically out of existence so far as the fixing of prices is concerned ? — A. I
did not laiow that it was ever out of existence really. I don't think any year passed
without our having one or two meetings.

Q. Is it not a fact that as far as the rules of the association controlling the
prices are concerned it has practically ceased to have effect for some time prior to 1900 ?

53—7

98 ROIAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

— A. I think it has as far as I remember. I don't remember any fixing of prices for
some years before 1900.

Q. For about how long prior to 1900 had prices been left to the effect of competi-
tion ? — A. The last price I remember being fixed was seven cents.

Q. That was twenty years ago ? — A. ISTo, about fifteen years.

Q. And that price obtained for how long ? — A. I could not say.

Q. But it gradually went down and down until it got below $2.00 ? — A. There was
Bome paper sold in Canada below $2.00 I believe. I did not sell any.

Q. But not as low as $1.60 per hundred ? — A. No, I don't think it. I don't know,
though. •

Q. Did you ever sell as cheap as that ? — A. If any one in Canada were selling
paper at $1.60 they were selling at a loss.

Q. I am asking you if you ever got down as low as $1.60 ? — A. I never got down
as low as $2.00.

Q. And you cannot say whether the price in Canada ever fell below $2.00 ? — A. I
cannot say positively. I know nothing about it, except what I saw in the evidence
given by llr. Tarte before the commission.

Q. I am told that large quantities were sold at as low as $1.60 in the course of the
nineties, the years from 1S90 to 1900. Would that be out of the question ? — A. If any
person told me that on the street I do not think I would believe it.

Q. You don't think that would be possible ? — A. No.

Q. The cost of production has never got sufficiently cheapened to allow you to sell
at that ? — A. Not to sell at a profit. He might sell it at a loss.

Q. How low would you put the lowest price at which, under the most favourable
conditions, prior to this agreement of 1900, paper, news print, could have been sold per
pound, and yet realize to the paper manufacturer a profit ? — A. Well, you are asking
me a question there that I don't think I should answer, because I am not in the secrets
Df either of these large mills that make paper for export as well as for home trade.

Q. Tou are thoroughly conversant with the secrets of the business ? — A. I know
what it costs me to make my own paper. I buy my own sulphur ; I buy my coal and
my ground wood. There are mills in Canada where they don't do these things.

Q. I am asking you if you will give me the benefit of your knowledge and experi-
ence as to how low a price news print could be sold per pound and yet realize to the
manufacturer some profit ? ''

Witness. — Would that be considering the capital in the business ?

Counsel. I want you to take into consideration first the capital ; — A. I am not
giving an opinion. I have no facts to back me up. I don't think there is any mill in
Canada that could make paper anywhere under $1.90 to $2.00 and pay ten ]ier cent
3apital on their mill.

Q. Would you place that at the minimum figure ? — A. Yes.

Q. And that would be a mill of the best construction ? — A. Yes, and grinding its
own wood ; buying this wood under t"he most favourable conditions.

Q. Your mill has never made its own sulphite ? — A. No.

Q. You depend on what source of supply for your sulphite 'i — A. I buy it from the
mills in the province of Quebec.

Q. And you buy it at association prices, the same as ordinary consumers ?— A.
I do not know that there is any association price.

Q. Is not that controlled by the agreement of you gentlemen of a year ago ? — A. I
think not.

Q. At all events it is from manufacturers who are parties to that agreement that
you get your sulphite pulp ? — A. No, I don't think the parties from whom I am buying
my ground wood are in the association.

Q. Do you distinguish between ground wood and sulphite pulp ? — A. Yes.

Q. You told me you do not manufacture your own sulphite pulp ? — A. No.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 99

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. You have to look for your supply of sulphite pulp to other manufacturers in
Canada ? — A. Yes, during the whole year 1900 and up to a little while ago I bought
my sulphite from the Maritime Pulp Company, which is not connected with the asso-
ciation or with any association in Canada.

Q. Your profit upon the output of news print would of course depend directly on
the prices you have to pay for your material ? — A. Yes.

Q. And that price is very largely advanced ? — A. Yes.

Q. You gave figures ? — A. Forty-two dollars I paid last year for sulphite pulp.

Q. As compared with what ?— A. $34.00.

Q. That was an increase of twenty-five per cent ? — A. Yes.

Q. A greater increase tha:i there has been in the price of paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. Then the paper manufacturer who manufactures his own sulphite pulp would
have that source of profit in addition to the source of profit which you would have ? —
A. That is if he had no capital in his pulp mill, he would have.

Q. The fact would be that the paper manufacturer who made his own sulphite
pulp would have that advantage of course ? — A. Less the profit on the pulp mill or the
capital in the pulp mill.

Q. Less the proper interest on the capital invested in the pulp miU ? — A. Yes.

Q. And of you gentlemen who are members of that Association in 1900 about
■what proportion manufacture their own sulphite pulp ? — ^A. The Laurentide Pulp Com-
pany, the Riordans, are the only ones, I think of at the present time.

Q. Buntiu and Sons, do they ? — A. No.

Q. Canada Paper Company ? — A. They do not manufacture sulphite at all.

Q. Dominion Paper Company ? — A. No.

Q. The Eddy Company ?— A. Yes.

Q. Fisher & Son ?— A. No.

Q. Forde & Company 'i — A. No.

Q. The Laurentide, do you say? — A. Yes.

Q. Lincoln Paper Mills ?— A. No.

Q. McArthur ?— A. No.

Q. ]\Iiller Brothers ?— A. No.

Q. Eiordan Paper Mills, they do ? — A. Yes.

Q. The Royal Paper Mills ?— A. No.

Q. The Rolland Paper Company ? — A. No.

Q. Stutt & Son ?— A. No.

Q. Thompson is out of it now ? — A. Yes.

Q. He was not, anyway ? — A. No.

Q. Tavlor Brother ?— A. No.

Q. Wilson Co. ?— A. No.

Q. They all buy except the Laurentide Company, the Eddy Company, and the
Hiordan Company ? — A. Yes.

Q. And they are amongst the largest manufacturers ? — A. Yes.
■ Q. Will you tell me if you buy, or if you tried to buy from either of these three ?
— A. I am at present buying from the Riordan Company.

Q. At forty-two dollars ? — A. No, the price has gone down again.

Q. In the last three weeks ? — A. Yes.

Q. Contemporaneously with the reduction in the price of paper ? — ^A. Yes.

Q. Then prior to that time were the Riordans and these other members of the
association charging you $42.00 for their sulphite ? — A. They wanted that, but I
■could not afford to pay that. I made a contract with the Maritime Company at a little
over forty dollars for a large portion of my supjily for 1900. The Riordans were selling
all their supply to the United States at a price that would net them more than $42.00.

Q. So that it would be fair to say, as I understand your testimony, that the manu-
facture of sulphite pulp was a lucrative source of profit to the manufacturers who had
machinery for it ? — A. It was, during the boom in the United States.

100 ROYAL COiimSSIOS RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIKE

1-2 EDWARD Vll.. A. 1902

Q. Did the prices go up ?— A. Sulphite pulp went from $1.60 to $3.25 ; doubled
in value inside of six months.

Q. Paper manufacturers who had the facilities of going into that line or that
branch of manufacture would, as I say, have a very high profit during that time, and
would still ? — A. He would if he sold his news at American prices.

Q. The price you say on news print in the United States has increased more iu
proportion than it has in Canada ? — A. Yes, that was a year ago. The prices have
gone down again to the low level.

Q. Since when did they increase ? — A. The boom started early in 1900 — in the
fall of 1899.

Q. Not before that ?— A. No. I think early in 1899 it was selling as low as $1.80.

Q. The trade in the United States is practically in the hands of a Consolidated
Company ? — A. No.

Q. You know the International Paper Company ? — A. Yes.

Q. Formed about when ? — A. I think it is over two years.

Q. Incorporated with an enormous capital, taking over a great number of mills ? —
A. 18 or 20 of the largest mills.

Q. And now having the bulk of the output of the paper industry in the United
States ? — A. Of the newspaper ? No, they average probably sixty per cent of the news-
paper output; somewhere about that.

Q. Yes, and a little more than that. You might say seventy per cent ? — A. Xo. A
number of new mills have opened up that are not in the Association since that company
was formed.

Q. Do you know any concerns not in that association in this part of the United
States ; in New York State, for instance, or in the New England States i — A. I could
not from memory name the companies that are in.

Q. Do you know any that are not in this section of the States or in the New Eng-
land States ? — A. If I had the Paper Trade Reporter, I could pick out some.

Q. As I understand it, that company controlled the output of certainly seventy
per cent of the paper makers of the United States '( — A. Even at the start they did
not claim to control seventy per cent. They have been losing ground since on account
of the new mills not being iu the association.

Q. I think at the present time that out of the daily production of two thousand
tons in the United States fourteen hundred was the ouput of these mills in the Inter-
national Company ? — A. I think the output is a little more than that, and they have
probably a little over twelve hundred.

Q. The increase in price in the United States followed directly on the formation
of that association ? — A. The price went up in England more than it did in the
United States.

Q. Perhaps it was the effect of the association in the United States that aifected
the price in England ? — A. No, that did not have anything to do with it.

Q. Notwithstanding the usual gradual decline in the cost of production for the last
forty years, an equally uniform decline in price until about 189S, when the association
was formed in the United States ; since then prices have gone up with a bound, and
vou have had what you call a paper trade boom ? — A. No. They went up on account
of the Boer war and the Philippine war. It increased the demand all over the United
States.

Q. You attribute it to that ? — A. Yes. I am sure the association was formed
six to twelve months ago before there was any advance in the prices of paper at all.

Q. It would have to take a little time to go into operation ? — A. No. The war
demand did not set in for from six to twelve months.

Q. When you speak of your present business arrangements with your customers
you say three per cent off at three months is your rule I — A. Three months credit with
three per cent off for payment within thirty days.

illNUTES OF EVIDENCE 101

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Do you make any allowance to them for waste ? — A. When the buyer had con-
trol of the market we gave them pretty much what they asked for.

Q. When the buyer had control, or in other words when competition governed
prices, you had to get ofE your output at the best^terms you could make ? Now they
return to you pound for pound and they get credit ? — A. Yes.

Q. AVhen the association got control you quit that '. — A. Yes.

Q. At what price upon a pound would that advantage be equal to ? — A. In a proper
newspaper office where some consideration was given to the people it would not amount
to much. When that was sent back to the paper maker it amounted to considerable.

Q. Take an office which do what you are just describing. About what number
of cents on a pound disadvantage to a manufacturer would it be ? — A. In a fairly well
managed office it should not amount to five cents on a hundred.

Q. But in one of these offices where they would crowd you down? — A. Where they
had a bad press, and they had fifty pounds of paper on it, they would send it back to
the paper maker.

Q. About how high would it come in such offices ? — A. It might run up to fifteen
jents.

Q. So that item of advantage of the consumer would vary according to the condi-
tions of the various offices from five to fifteen cents per hundred? — A. Yes.

Q. Which of course the association has put an end to ' — A. Yes.

Q. Are there any other items of advantage to the consumer which the association
has ended ? — A. I don't know ; I don't think of any.

Q. What was the rule as to discount in the trade prior to the association of 1900 ?
■ — A. The terms of credit were four months, with three par cent off for cash.

Q. AVhich has been changed to three months ? — A. Yes.

Q. That is the only change ? — A. Yes.

Q. And the items of waste and discount are the only ones in which there has been
any change as the result of the formation of the association ? — A. Yes, that is the
Dnly one I remember of.

Q. These calculations that you made in the sheets you have — were you putting
them in at all ? — A. I wish to put them in to show what it cost me to put a ton of
paper through my mill.

Q. They have been prepared from your books by some book-keeper ? — A. By my-
self personally, from my own private memorandum book, to show the cost of paper.

Q. Well now, you put down here as 1898 the cost of material for 100 pounds of
paper, $1.16 ?— A. Yes.

Q. Then you add to that wages? — A. That is -what I wish to keep private.

Q. Those are items you do not wish to disclose ? — A. Yes.

Q. What you have to pay for wages, etc. ? — A. Yes.

Q. I see an item here charged for superintendent and office ? — A. Yes, that is
wages to the men in charge.

Q. What does the word office mean? — A. Office expenses divided per hundred
tons of paper ; the traveller, the bookkeeper and all the wages of the staff.

Q. Does it include anything in the way of rent ? — A. No.

Q. Simply wages and the disbursements in that respect ? — A. Yes.

Q. Wires ?; — A. That is the wearable part of the machine.

Q. That is in the nature of depreciation to plant ? — A. No, it is not that exactly,
it is wires that will wear out. You have to replace them every few weeks.

Q. They are not all consumed in the manufacture? — A. No, not consumed, worn
out.

Q. A considerable item here, at least comparatively for general expense account ?
— A. That takes all the general expense account for which we do not keep a detailed ac-
count. The general expense account is everything not having an account of itself.

Q. You attend practically to the superintendency of your own mill ? — A. No, I
hire a superintendent.

102 ROYAL CUMillaSlOy RE ALLEGED PAPER VOilBlNE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Then is it the case that in this list of items there is nothing whatever included
which would go into your own pocket as remuneration except the item of ' profit ' at
the end?— A. That is all.

Q. As to all the other items ihey would be disbursements out of pocket? — A.
Yes.

Q. Then, do these items of disbursements which you have set down here include
any return for the capital invested in the building ? — A. Xone whatever.

Q. Or plant ?— A. No.

Q. Or depreciation ( — A. In a mill we generally calculate to keep the mill in
working order all the time. As a rule we do not write off the depreciation of the mill.
The wearable part we renew at the end of the year. It is worth just exactly what you
started on.

Q. It comes in in the item of general expense and repairs ? — A. General expense
and repairs.

Q. Then, except that you do not wish these items which relate to your own personal
business being made public there is no objection to this being submitted to the con-
sideration of any accountant or skilled man on our side? — A. No. He would have to
be a paper-maker to consider that.

This exhibit is filed as D — 1.

The above witness tvas recalled and examined as follows hy 2Ir. While: —

Q. In your experience as a paper maker, what would you consider a fair profit on
the cost of production, a fair advance ? — A. About one-half a cent a pound would be a
fair return for the capital on most mills.

Q. Now, taking the price of $2.50, the association price, was that rate of $2.50
allowed to you, did it allow you that rate of profit ? — A. Not quite. Very close to it
at the present price of raw material. At twenty-five cents a hundred pounds profit,
it would give me six per cent on the capital and about fifteen hundred dollars a year
for myself. I think you will find in these statements I put in three years out of the
four I did not get twenty-five cents a hundred pounds from the output.

Q. And in this statement you have put in, there is nothing allowed for your own
expenses or charges or cost whatever ? — A. Nothing whatever, and the entire capital
in most papers exceeds the annual output. My capital is $175,000 and my output is
$160,000. A great number of manufacturers will turn out three or four or five times the
value of their capital. Very few paper mills turn out the value of their capital in a
year.

Q. So therefore their profits must be relatively large to give them a fair return ?
—A. Yes.

Q. So that after all you are only asking for twenty-five cents a hundred, ten per
cent advance on cost ? — A. That would give six per cent on capital.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. Your figures if I recollect from this forenoon showed cost of production at
$1.94 or $1.95 ?— A. That is for one year.

Q. What is the difference in the various prices here ? — A. There is a slight ad-
vance in mill cost, on account of wires and coal and sulphite.

Q. The bulk of the increase is certainly in the cost of the sulphite and ground
wood ? — A. Yes.

Q. It rises from one twelve and a quarter to one forty-six and a half? — A. Yes.

Q. So that you were including in that estimate as we see, simply the cost of the
raw material, the wages and the repairs ? — A. That is all.

MINUTES OP EVIUfJXVt; 103

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Do you, in getting rid of your output, make any ditference with the customer
as to the amount of his order, the size of his order ? — A. Oh, yes. The larger buyers
have always got a little better prices than the small buyers.

Q. They get a reduction, that is always the case ? — A. Yes.

Q. And can make a better bargain with you than a small consumer ? — A. Yea.
Of course you will understand in a newspaper the larger your order is the more pro-
fit you have.

Q. Then, there is something I neglected to ask you this forenoon; perhaps you can
explain to us this system of establishing equalization points, of equalizing freight.
Can you explain that to us ? — A. I cannot explain that to you as well as some of the
others because it was something I never approved of and did everything I could to
break it down. It was done to i^roteet the jobber in the large cities.

Q. Just explain to us how it works ? — A. Up to the time of the last meeting of the
association every printer and publisher in Canada had his paper delivered in his shop
even the little country weekly or the larger city daily it was the same. Any price
quoted was the price quoted in the printing office.

At the time the association was formed the jobbers to a certain extent controlled
business and the jobbers said, ' We have no advantage in buying from you in carloads
because a man ten miles out in London can get his freight just as cheap as we can.
I want you to ship it out to me immediately.'

Q. That made the paper cost just that much more to the consumer ? — A. Yes.

Q. You did not happen to live at an equalization point ? — A. Yes.

Q. How many of these equalization points, as you call them, did you establish? —
A. There must have been between twenty and thirty. It was simply the mills protect-
ing the jobber and the jobber had largely controlled sales.

Q. You were doing it to protect the jobber though the effect was to put a disad-
vantage upon the consumers who did not live at those points, and gave no advantage to
those who did live at those points ? — A. They would get the regular freight.

Q. But they did not get any advantage ? — A. None whatever.

Q. It was a disadvantage to those others ? — A. But no advantage to the paper
maker either.

JOHX M.\CF.\ELAXE.

Examined hy Mr. White, E.G., representing the Manufacturers Association :

Q. Mr. MacFarlane, you have been engaged for a number of years in the paper
business in Canada ? — A. About forty years.

Q. And you are at present the president and managing director of the Canada
Paper Company ? — A. I am.

Q. Your company is also a member of the association, the Paper Trade Associa-
tion of Canada ? — A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember when this association was first formed or organized ? — A.
I should say about 1879 or 1880, about twenty years ago.

Q. Were you connected with it at that time ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was the association continued up to the present time, or what changes oc-
curred ? — A. It has been in existence ever since.

Q. Will you produce a memorandum being the agreement signed by the members
of the Paper Makers' Association and dated at Montreal, the 22nd September, 1892,
and state whether this signature ' John MacFarlane, Canada Paper Company,' is your
signature, and whether you were a member of that association at that time ? — A. I
was.

104 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COM BINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. This document provides that the following members of the Paper ilakers' Asso-
ciation in meeting at this date have agreed on the following basis, giving the parti-
culars of the agreement. They have then signed. Number three print rolls, carloads,
3J cents ; less than carloads, 3J cents ; in sheets, 3| cents in carload lots, and 4i cents
in sheets less than carload lots.

That is signed by twenty manufacturers of paper, many of whom are still in the
association ? — A. Yes.

Q. Can you explain why this association was organized i — A. The principal
object of the organization in the first place was, to promote the interests of the paper
trade generally in Canada, and more particularly at that time we had an idea there was
a question of free trade or protection, and we believed we had protection. If we had
free trade it would be disastrous to the interests of the paper makers. That is princi-
pally what brought us together at that time. After that the question of makin;j: paper
from wood came into existence and we wanted to cultivate the manufacture of paper
from wood in the Dominion of Canada, because we believed it was better adapted for
this purpose than any other part of the world, and we thought that in time we would
be able to bring a large trade to the country. We have been working for that pretty
much ever since. The question of prices has been a minor question in connection with
the association, because I have always believed, and I believe, as the older I get, that
no prices fixed could be maintained for any length of time unless you could get con-
trol of the output, or get control entirely of the manufacture, and consequently I have
always looked upon the fixing of prices as- only temporary, but there were larger in-
terests which always took my attention. We wanted to build up a large trade in
Canada, and we thought we would be able to do that. That was one of the principal
factors to the members in the trade, which they thought would be beneficial to us.

Q. As you say, other matters were discussed at different times ? — A. Yes, by con-
fention in Ottawa and other places.

Q. There appear to be about twenty mills in the list of 1892. The list produced
by Mr. Hardy shows that there are only twelve mills at present in the -association
under the new agreement. Can you give us any idea how many paper mills there are
in Canada outside of this association altogether '< — A. There would be about fourteen
outside of the association, that have not joined the association.

Q. So that here are more mills outside than in the association ? — A. Yes. I take
it to be so.

Q. In the beginning of 1900 it appears that the association fixed the pr'ce at $2.50
->ev hundred pounds, with the usual discount of three months or three per cent. Can
you explain why that price of $2.50 was fixed, and why it was fixed at a higher rate
than paper had been selling for before, as there is evidence that paper had been sold
at $2.10 and $2.20 before that time ? Can you explain why it was that the association
fixed the minimum price at $2.50 ? — A. Yes, there is no mystery about it at all.
About ten or twelve years previous to that year the price of paper had gradually gone
down from perhaps ten cents per pound to two and a quarter. I am speaking now from
memory, not what I know as an absolute fact. The price went down to an unprofitable
Sgure. There was in consequence of the South African war — the Cuban war first, and
the South African war immediately following — there was an improvement in business.
Business had been very depressed for a number of years, getting worse and worse dovra
to 1898 or 1899. There was an improvement took place in 1S99. Prices went up. The
demand for paper increased very much, particularly news pnptr, on account of the in-
terest taken in these two wars. I have made out rough statistics, and find that in Great
Britain and all over the English speaking world the consumption of news paper in-
creased 25 per cent through the war calling for that much more paper. At the same
time, strange to say, there was a long continued drought in Norway and Sweden, which
was the largest pulp supplying country in the world for the United States and Eng-
land, and there was a drought extending over the northeastern part of the United
States and into Canada, which prevented the manufacture of pulp in these countries.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE IQo

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

so that pulp became short, and the demand for paper became long, and the consequence
(vas that the price of paper advanced, and we could not get paper to supply them at any
price. It was not a question what we could sell it at. It was : Let us have it for
heaven's sake at any price. The matter of cost was only an incident at that time in
;he United States and Canada, because we could have sold all the paper outside of the
market at a better price than we were getting here.

We said we would not sacrifice our home trade, and we must keep our people as
good natured as possible until the conditions change again, and we figured our price
at $2.50. That price would not cover the price of raw material, because they were up
as high as fifty per cent, but we thought it was better to fix a price so as to keep every-
one happy and contented, but in one or two instances we failed. I never looked ser-
iously on this thing at all. There was only one or two people outside who thought
they had a grievance. We never felt it amongst our regular customers at all.

Q. Do you know if sales were made after the price had been fixed at $2.50 at
higher prices, sales of news print ? — A. Certainly, there were lots of them. We sold
as high as four cents ; we could have sold more if we had it ; we had none to spare.

Q. The minimum price fixed by the association of $2.50 applied to all purchases
in carload lots ? — A. Yes.

Q. The chief complaint appears to have been from purchasers who buy, say $1,500
or $1,600 worth of paper a year ? — A. Yes.

Q. What would have been, apart from the association altogether, the price they
would have had to pay ? — A. They would have had to pay over three cents if they had
to depend on the market at the time. They would have had to pay over three cents.

Q. Have you followed the advance in prices in the United States during the same
period ? — A. Fairly well.

Q. Has it been relatively the same as that in Canada or greater ? — A. I think it
has been a little greater. For a short time their wants were more acute than ours.

Q. Have you any idea of the amount of capital invested in the paper business in
Canada ? — A. Close on twenty million dollars.

Q. About eighteen or twenty millions of dollars ? — A. At least that. I have not
made a calculation. I should say at least that. It very often depends on how the
figures are arranged. I don't think that twenty millions would more than pay the cost
of the companies existing to-day.

Q. What would be the result on that amount of business in Canada of a reduction
in the duty on paper to-day ?

Jlr. Aylesworth, K.C, objects to this question.

Question allowed by the Commissioner.

A. It would be very injurious to the trade.

Q. And if paper were placed on the free list ? — A. It would be wiped out — disas-
trous.

Q. Apart from this $20,000,000 investment, approximately what labour is there;
how many men would be employed in the paper business ? Can you say roughly, taking
the paper business and the businesses that lead to it ; that is, the manufacture of
pulp, lumber, &c. ? — A. I am not prepared at the moment to answer very correctly.

Q. Would it run into the thousands ? — A. Yes, I should say five or six thousand
anyway.

Q. Wlien you say five thousand you are speaking of the men employed about the
nills?— A. Yes.

Q. Apart from this is it not a fact that there are large numbers of men employed in
getting out this spruce wood ? — A. There would be as many more in the woods. They
ire not employed all the year around ; they are employed during the winter months.

Q. Can you give any explanation of the prices that were quoted — such prices as
$1.70, $1.80 and $1.90 in the United States for delivery in Canada ? One witness said
he had been offered paper in the United States when the association price was $2.50
he had been offered paper there at $1.80 and $1.90 for delivery in Canada ? — A. It was
aimply to keep the mills going until something happened to make them better.

106 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Was that the ruling prieo in the States '. — -A. No, it was not.

Q. Have you any knowledge of the effect of the exportation of American paper oii
the English market ? — A. It has just now about nine mills closed down there in Eng-
land— shut down.

Q. As a result of what ? — A. Sending paper, surplus paper, from the United
States to England. The others, of course, are feeling it very badly. The paper trade is
in a bad condition there now.

Q. You have a knowledge of what is considered in general business a fair margin
of profit ? — A. That is a question that would be different with different companies..
Of course some of them do business on a very large scale, and they can take a lesser
percentage of profit than a small mill, but if you should see the mills favourably situ-
ated, if they get twelve or fifteen per cent profit they ought to be happy. That would
be a fair profit.

Q. At $2.50, the minimum price, would nianufacturers get that profit during the
past two years if they sold their paper at the minimum price ? — A. Not unless their
mills were favourably situated to manufacture the paper. Some of them could not
cnake it at that price at all with a profit.

Q. A question has been raised as to the difference in the allowance of waste paper-
returned as waste allowed for paper, and the fixing of this rule by the association
afterwards, can you tell me why that was done ? — A. Yes, that has always been a
burning question between the newspaper consumer and the paper manufacturer. Per-
haps fifteen years ago there were perhaps very few Webb presses in the country, and
when papers were put in reams and bundles and tied up with strings there was no-
waste. After it became a custom to use roll papers, through perhaps poorer manage-
ment in some of the newspaper offices than others, there was a great deal of waste. Some
of the offices made a great deal of waste. Then a question arose between the newspaper
proprietor and the newspaper manufacturer as to who should pay for this waste. He
would say it was the fault of the paper, and of course the pressman would say it was
the fault of the paper maker, and the paper maker would say it was the fault of the
pressman.

As the manufacture of paper in Canada increased there has been an over-product
pretty much for a number of years. This put prices down and down, and in the com-
petition to sell that paper, one paper man would allow one advantage, and another
would allow another, and they became so that they would allow anything the newspaper
man asked of them. So that as a result they were allowed to send all their waste
paper back and charge it back to the paper maker at the price he charged for sound
paper. When it got below a profitable rate, they said : ' We will have to stop that.
We are making paper at a loss, and this is being shoved back on us and we are suffer-
ing a heavy loss.' They took up the rule that had been adopted by the printers on the
other side and had been recognized as a law for some time before we took it up.

Q. In the case of the ream paper, of course you had to supply the wrappers and
twine ? — A. The wrappers were always counted out to bo paid for with the paper, and
the twine costs a great deal more. It costs 10 cents a pound, and we would only get
2J cents a pound for it. The wrappers are worth generally 3 cents a pound, so we are
losing on them. Now, we e.xpect the paper people to pay for their wrappers when they
get their roll paper, because we have to put them on to keep it clean until it gets to-
their place.

Q. Are you aware that as far back as 1890, a certain agreement had been made by
the members of the Paper Makers' Association with regard to controlling the output ?
— A. There has been discussion of the kind, but it has never been put into practice.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association:

Q. You have been in the business of manufacturing paper for some twenty years
back, I suppose, Mr. MacFarlane '. — A. I have been at it all iny life.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE IO7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. And the first time there was any association among the manufacturers was in
1879 ? — A. As near as my memory serves me. It was riot in the shape of an organiza-
tion. We used to meet together and discuss different things. Of course, they are
scattered all over the country, run away up into the country.

Q. But at the time the question of free trade became a burning one was the time
the association was formed ? — A. I don't think it was formed at that time, but we got
together and talked about that.

Q. You gave us that as the date that the organization was formed, and you gav&
us as the object of the association, the furtherance of the protection of that business i
— A. Or any other incident that might arise. There was another question that was
always brought up ; that was freights on the railways and various questions of that
sort.

Q. Then at that time, did you agree together at all as to the prices ? — A. In 1879,
I think, there was some sort of understanding, roughly speaking, that we would not sell
a certain kind of paper under a certain price, but as I say it was not closely organized,
but we would meet and discuss these things and they would fall through afterwards.

Q. That was not the object primarily of your association, and that was not the
result ? — A. It was only one of the objects ; if the prices were favourable at the time
they would not be discussed. If they were going down to an unfavourable basis, we
would discuss them very warmly.

Q. Had your association continued as a living reality from that date to the pre-
sent ? — A. It has always had its officers.

Q. Was it not felt to be pretty much a dead organization for some time ? — A.
Except for four or five years, we did not meet. Some branches of the association met,
but we did not meet all together, but there were no manufacturers' meetings, I mean.

Q. When were these years ? — A. I think from about 1895 to 1899, but there were
several meetings during that time, while the International Commission was sitting.
We tried to bring the influence of that organization to bear on the Quebec and Ottawa
governments, as to what would be done with our pulp wood, and we have had some very
interesting meetings with that end in view.

Q. This paper which Mr. White produced to you is dated Montreal, 22nd Sep-
tember, 1892, and is headed ' prices and terms of prints and manillas ' and signed
by some sixteen to twenty different manufacturers. Was that the first document of
that kind that ever was brought up, so far as you know ? — A. No, it was not.

Q. What was the occasion of drawing this one up ? — A. Because we wanted to
get the prices uniform.

Q. Had you any such document before, fixing the prices ? — A. We have had a
number from time to time.

Q. What is the history of this particular one in 1892 ? — A. To get the prices uni-
form.

Q. You mean you found your people were not practically adhering to the prices
theretofore fixed ? — A. I could not tell you.

Q. Cannot you tell me what the occasion of getting up that paper was ? — A. It
was amongst the papers of the old association.

Q. That fell into disuse ? — A. No, it did not fall into disuse.

Q. Why do you call it the old association ? — A. Because there was some new
rules and regulations made at the Windsor Hotel meeting last year, in 1900.

Q. A revival ? — A. No. We never died.

Q. For five years not been meeting actively ? — A. There was no new president
appointed for five years but the organization continued in existence.

Q. Do yoii mean to say that the different prices which were fixed by your associa-
tion agreement in September, 1892, were adhered to until 1900 ? — A. No, I do not. T
could not tell you.

Q. Were they adhered to by the manufacturers who signed this document for any
length of time ? — A. I should take it for granted they were.

10.^ ROYAL COMillSSIOX RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. For how loug ? — A. I could not tell you. I might say thiit I have always
looked upon the fixing of prices as a minor consideration in the organization.

Q. Perhaps while you had that opinion, other manufacturers looked upon that as
the all important feature of your organization, or of your existence. Can you tell me
how long these prices were adhered to ? — A. Generally for a few years.

Q. Since then there has been no fixed price, since then ? — A. I have never followed
the fixing of prices.

Q. Was there any regulation, as now exists, for the fining, imposing penalties on
people who made breaches of the regulation ? — A. It has been talked of since we were
in existence, but I do not think it has ever been put into practice.

Q. It is a very living reality now ? — A. I do not think it is a reality now.

Q. That is, simply because you all adhere ? — A. Very likely.

Q. What was the occasion of the revival in 1900 ? — A. The occasion of the revival
was, as I said, of the instance that arose for the demand of paper, which caused the high
price and the extra cost to make it.

Q. Tou were not going to increase the supply at all by this meeting ? — A. The
supply was increased.

Q. Do you suppose that this meeting- would have in any way a tendency to in-
crease the supply ? — A. No, their output would be whatever they pleased.

Q. I rather gather, if I understand you correctly, in your evidence t) my learned-
friend. Mr. White, that the effect, if not the object, of that meeting in 1900 was to
keep the prices down ? — A. It was to make uniform prices.

Q. To keep them down ? — A. We put them up.

Q. Tou say they would have gone over three cents if it had not been for your
association ? — A. So they did.

Q. Your view of that meeting of 1900 and that binding agreement you entered into
was, to prevent the prices going up as high as they otherwise would ? — A. No, sir ; it
was to make uniform prices, to charge our people in Canada the same prices.

Q. You think the consumer here would have had to pay fifty cents more a hundred
if it had not been for your agreement ? — A. Quite satisfied. And some of them did
pay more, and they wanted more paper at the same price and we did not have it to give
to them.

Q. Do I understand you right, that there were some fourteen mills in Canada
outside of this agreement of nineteen hundred altogether, who never came into it ? —
A. Yes.

Q. Where are they situated ? — A. I think I can give you the names of most of
them.

Q. The Laurentide Company ? — A. They are in here. They never have acted
in it.

Q. Russel A. Alger, junior, is signed here ? — A. They are not in it.

Q. That is one of the fourteen anyway ? — A. Yes.

Q. The Royal Pulp and Paper Company, Cornwall Paper Company, Kinleith
Paper Company, St. Catharines, John Fisher & Son ? — A. I don't know. I did not
follow the proceedings of the association very closely. But they make some class of
paper, possibly a class of paper which they make is not controlled by this agreement.
Stutt, Lazier, Wall^er, Patterson, Reid, Craig & Co., they were in existence at that
time; they have failed since, but they were not in the association at that time. There
are three or four other smaller ones that I have not got.

Q. And there are some of them situated in the maritime provinces ? — A. I have
only counted one in the maritime provinces.

Q. So out of the twenty-six mills in Canada you have twelve actually in and four-
teen out ; that is your calculation ? — A. Yes.

Q. Although some of these fourteen, as I now understand, did sign but never
made their deposit ? — A. That I understand from what I see.

MIXUTES OF EVIDEXCE 109

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. That regulation of making deposits and subjecting members tn penalties if
they made breaches of the reg-ulations fixed by the association as regards the prices
is, if I understand right, altogether a new feature, first introduced in 1900 ? — A.
Without having the papers before me, I could not say.

Q. Did you ever yourself make a deposit ? — A. We have always made a contri-
bution.

Q. A contribution is a very different thing from a deposit, from a $500 depDsit.
Don't you understand my question ? I want you to say whether prior to 1900 your as-
sociation called for a deposit, of a substantial amount like $500, and imposed a penalty
on members who departed from the price fixed by the body ? — A. Speaking' of what
took place previous to 1900, I think they called for a deposit of $1,000.

Q. Did they get it ?— A. I don't think so.

Q. Did they ever, prior to 1900, impose a penalty of $500 on tha members who did
not live up to the regulations ? — A. It was never done.

Q. Nineteen hundred was the first time that became a practical living thing in
that respect ? — A. I won't say that.

Q. You have no knowledge of it ever being carried out before 1900 ? — A. No.
With regard to these mills in the association, I would like to add that there are other
mills called in the association that are also not in the association for some of their
mills, for instance, the Canada Paper Company, have three mills. The association,
only as far as the association price goes, governs one of the mills ; the other two mills
are free to sell at what they like.

Q. They do not make the paper which is subject to this agreement as to prices ? —
A. We do not. Sometimes we used to make it, and we can turn off on it to-day if we
liked, but we only expect one of these mills is governed by that agreement, but if we
made news print in the other two, it would be governed by the same agreement.

Q. For how long prior to 1900 would your judgment be that the price as to news
print had been going down regularly ? You said for years, how many years ? — A.
Probably fifteen years with an occasional go up again under conditions something like
what arose lately.

Q. That has been a result of cheapening in the cost of production ? — A. Over-pro-
duction.

Q. There had been a corresponding lessening froni year to year in that direction ?
■ — A. No, a proportionate lessening.

Q. There had been a lessening though ? — A. Yes.

Q. As you began to use pulp in place of rags ? — A. If there had been a great
lessening there would not be a mill in existence in the country to-day.

Q. Would you kindly answer the question. I ask you whether that dimunition in
the case of raw material had not been primarily the result of using pulp instead of
rags ? — A. Partially, yes.

Q. Then there had been an improvement, I presume, in machinery, improved pro-
cesses ? — A. Not any improved processes, but in machines to produce larger product.

Q. So that as a result of the change from rags to pulp and of other processes,
there had been a gradual diminution of prices up to 1900 ? — A. Yes. Not only owing
to that, but to other things.

Q. They had got down to as low as 2 cents a pound and even lower ? — A. No.

Q. Had your price in your own factory never gone below 2 cents ? — A. In some
particular instances we have; in some special cases; not as a trade price.

Q. How low had they ever got as a general trade price ? — A. We have not sold under
$2.15 as a general price.

Q. But making some special bargain for a lower figure depending on the special
circumstances? — A. Yes.

Q. And that price of $2.15, was it coupled with these other circumstances of dis-
advantage to the manufacturer that you refer to, in the way of allowance for waste
returned ? — A. I do not mean to say our average trade price is $2.15.

110 ROYAL COilMIHSIOX RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. You speak of tliat as a general ruling price? — A. I said we sold sometimes as
low as $2.15, and in some particular instances we sold less than that again.

Q. I understood you to assent to my statement of the price which would go down
practically to two cents a pound? — A. No, sir.

Q. What figure do you put it at as a general rule, that is, for news print paper,
prior to the ruling of the Association in 1900 ? — A. About $2.25.

Q. You called that the general ruling price? — A. Yes.

Q. At which you were making a living profit? — A. Well, we thought we were.

Q. With a duty of 25 per cent ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was the amount protecting you then? — A. That is the amount of the duty,
25 per cent.

(Recess).

Q. A^i^art from being engaged in the paper business, the manufacture of paper,
your company also manufactures pulp ? — A. We do.

Q. You manufacture both the sulphite and the ground pulp ( — A. We don't manu-
facture sulphite ; we manufacture soda pulp, by a chemical process.

Q. During the past three years, it is in evidence that the price of this chemical
pulp has increased verj- considerably? — A. Yes.

Q. Can you give us the figures approximately? — A. You mean the cost or the
selling price ?

Counsel. — The selling price ? — A. We have not sold any, so I cannot give you that,
but we buy some, and I can give you the cost of it ; what we have bought has increased
about seven or eight dollars a ton.

Q. Is there any association or combination amongst the pulp makers? — A. Not
that I know of.

Q. What advance has there been in the cost of raw material for chemical pulp ?
■ — A. In the soda, which is largely used, there is about thirty-four or thirty-five per
cent advance in the wood.

Q. The wood is worth about fifty per cent more than it was two years ago, pulp
wood? — A. Yes.

Q. Any other raw material ? — A. Bleached powder ; that does not enter into the
cost of sulphite but it does into soda, increased twenty-five per cent ; ground pulp,
which we have bought, has increased nearly fifty per cent, from twelve to eighteen
dollars. It was worth about $12 two years ago, and it has increased to $18.

Q. Has the cost of production increased proportionately to the price of ground
pulp? — A. That would be particularly on account of the wood; the pulp wood is the
main thing with the ground pulp, and the price of the wood is worth about 50 per cent
higher now than it was two years ago, that is spruce pulp wood.

Q. In connection with the Paper Makers' Association of Canada, are you aware
of any agreement with paper makers in the United States as to prices, &c. ? — A. None
whatever, that I know of.

Re-cross-examined by Mr. Aylsworth, K.C., representing the Press Association:

Q. Do you mean you were not aware of any, or are you in a position to say there
is none? — A. I am in a position to say there is none, or I would know of it.

Q. You were asked as to an agreement as to prices ; is there any agreement or
understanding between your association on the one part and the International or other
American association on the other part, that each shall keep to its own territory ? —
A. None that I know of. I never heard of any.

Q. And there would be, according to your view, nothing in the way of fiee inter-
change of commodity, they selling in the States and you selling here, except the freight
and duty ? — A. Nothing whatever.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE HI

■■SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Nothing that yuu are aware of ? — A. Nothing whatever.

Q. I suppose you do Icnow as to the cost of news print, your association price ia
just a few cents more than the amount with freight ami duty added, for which the
same material can be laid down from the American manufacturer ? — A. 1 don't think
it has any connection.

Q. A mere coincidence ? — A. 1 tliink so.

Q. That ought to signify, I suppcse, that the duty was just so much in the pocket
•of the Canadian manufacturer, if the American manufacturer can produce and lay
it down here, paying the duty, which is the same material, for the same figure ? — A.
They make a slaughter price for Canada.

Q. They won't do it, but if the.v can do it it means that the Canadian manufacturer
has 10 or 25 per cent duty as additional profit? — A. I don't believe any one doing a
healthy business could do it. I know as a positive fact that they will offer to sell paper
in Canada at less than it is profitable to sell in the United States.

Q. Does your acquaintance with the trade of manufacturing paper in this country
or in the United States suffice to enable you to say whether you can manufacture here
as cheaply as they can? — A. We cannot.

Q. Why not? — A. Because we have not the same conditions under which to manu-
"facture as they have in the United States.

Q. Where have they an advantage in cheapness of manufacture? — A. In the United
States they put up a plant for the express purpose of manufacturing news print. That
plant would cost probably $1,000,000, and it is made for making one class of paper
•only. You could not put that up in Canada, because the Canadian trade would not
want it at all. There is not a market for it, and consequently you would lose. The
United States, when their market over-produces, ship their over-produce to England.
I have known them to carry as much as $50,000 over-produce to England, and sell it at
■what they could get to keep their own market clear.

If we put up a plant of that kind to make only news print, we would then have
to look for our market in England, and ship our product there and compete with the
-over-product prices in the United States.

Q. Ton are not answering at all what I ask. All that you have said might be
interesting as a manufacturers' standpoint, but let Mr. White bring out such answers.
What reason is there, if any, why American producers can produce cheaper than Cana-
-dians ? — A. Because he has a larger number of consumers.

Q. That would be the only reason ? His raw material costs as much as yours ? —
A. I presume so.

Q. And he has to lay out money for what costs him as much as it costs you ?— A.
Yes, I think it would.

Q. So that if you have an equal profit, there would be no reason, except a wider
market, why he could undersell ? — A. No. In other words, — I will help you — if the
United States will give us free trade, we will go free trade with them.

Q. I am not discussing the general question of free trade at all. With reference
to these matters that you have been further questioned about, your mill does not manu-
facture sulphite pulp, but what you call soda pulp ? — A. The proper name for this
pulp is cellulos.

Q. Are they equivalent? — A. Yes.

Q. They are, one or the other, required in the manufacture of news print? — A.
Either one or the other.

Q. And the price of that compound is largely increased since when ? — A. Since
1898.

Q. Since about contemporaneously with the increased demand, and with the in-
-creased price of paper ? — A. The increased price of raw material.

Q. Now, a great many of the larger paper manufacturers manufacture their own
■sulphite ? — A. Yes.

Q. Most of the large ones ? — A. Yes, we do.

110 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Those who do not have to buy from those who do ? — A. Not from paper mills
who make sulphite, but those who manufacture.

Q. If they had a sufficient sale of it, it would seem tj be a remunerative line of
business to engage in ? — A. It would from the seller's standpoint, but ths buyer would
not buy from a competitor in paper making.

Q. Are there any factories in Canada where sulphite is manufactured except
paper factories ?

Witness : Manufactured exclusively, do you mean ?

Counsel : Yes. — A. There are several.

Q. Where are they? — A. There are two in Chatham, New Brunswick, one near
St. John and Hawkesbury.

Q. What is the output of the Sault Ste. Marie mills ? — A. They have not finished
their sulphite product yet.

Q. Are those other places you mentioned engaged in the manufacture of pulp? —
A. Cellulose pulp only.

Q. Which they ship to the paper manufacturer? — A. Yes, to the jiaper manu-
facturer only.

Q. And the price of their wares is what has gone up ? — A. Yes.

Q. Has there been any increase in the price of ground wood? — A. Yes, a large in-
crease.

Q. As to that also, the paper factories are generally speaking, not purchasers;
some of them manufacture their own ? — A. Some of them manufacture their own and
some of them have to buy.

Q. Do any of the paper manufacturers buy their ground pulp? — A. Yes, quite a
number.

Q. And also their sulfihite? — A. Yes, some of them are placed in that position.
>. y. But the great majority manufacture their own? — A. I would not say the great
majority but a great number of them.

Q. The later mills?— A. Yes.

Q. They manufacture both these things? — A. Yes.

Q. Then, what reason is there for this large increase in the price of the soda or
sulphite pulp? — A. Principally the cost in the raw material in manufacturing. There
are also chemicals in the compound.

Q. What chemicals ? — A. Soda. We use about 1,000 tons a year. That has gone
up 50 per cent in the last two years particularly.

Q. Where do you get that? — A. It comes from Great Britain.

Q. Then has there been an increase in the cost of the pulp wood, in the tree ? — A.
Yes, a very large increase.

Q. In this country ? — A. Yes.

Q. Due to what? — A. Due to the increased consumption, and scarcity at the most
economical points to procure it, and American competition is taking this wood out of
the country. That is a part of the cause.

Q. Do you mean this wood is exported in the United States? — A. Largely, yes.

Q. And the producer for that reason has increased the price ? — A. Yes, the wood is
getting scarce at the most economical points to procure it.

Q. Bleaching powder, you mentioned? — A. Yes.

Q. Is bleaching powder used in the manufacturing line then? — A. Yes, largely.

Q. Give me an idea of what quantity of bleaching powder, the percentage, I mean,
I don't mean, — well, that would give me what I want. Compared with the value of
your output per annum, or per day, how much would you lay out for bleaching powder ?
— A. We buy about 500 or 600 tons a year of bleaching powder. It used to be $20 a
ton ; now it is about $30 ; that is about 50 per cent increase.

Q. What I want to get at, I want to know how much percentage of the cost of
your production is bleaching powder? — A. That particular article would not apply to
the subject you are discussing now. We use that in soda pulp.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ]13

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. That goes into the manufacture of news print paper? — A. Yes.

Q. Now, what I want to get at is, compare the outlay of your factory for bleach-
ing powder with the total value of your output, what is the percentage ? — A. Tou mean
bleaching powder as applied to print paper ?

Q. I mean for all the paper in which it is used ? — A. It seems to me there is no
connection. We make twelve thousand tons of paper a year and over 6,000 tons of this
is not interested at all in this question.

Q. What I want to get at : You are putting forward here the increase in the cost
of raw material as a reason for the increase in the price of your output. Now, I want
to take the whole value of the outpvit of your factory in which you use bleaching pow-
der and tell me what percentage of that total output would be referable to the total
cost of bleaching powder'^ — A. I don't see how I can answer that question very well.

Q. Take your total output if you will, you say 12,000 tons, in which you use bleach-
ing powder. Then what would be the cost price of that to the consumer for that many
tons of paper? — A. To some consumers it would amount to ^ cent a pound, and some
nothing at all. For instance, in writing papers, in fine papers, where that goes most
largely, it would amount to J c. or J c. a pound, and the newsjiaper I would not count
it of much consequence, but I would make a strong argument with regard to soda.

Q. You mentioned bleaching powder having gone up in price. Now, that does not
figure at all in the cost of producing news print ? — A. Not much. I would not base
an argument on it at all.

Further questioned hy Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufac-
turers' Association :

Q. You spoke of the condition in the United States as to the production of news
print. Can you give me any example as to why it should cost more in Canada than in
the States ? Do you know of any large papers in the States that have contracts ? — A.
I have in my mind's eye a number of mills erected in the United States exclusively to
supply certain newspapers.

Q. That is to supply one newspaper ? — A. Yes, during the excitement of the Cuban
war, there were several papers in the United States that used as much as 150 tons a
day, one newspaper. In Canada the whole product was not over 125 a day, or fifty or
more different papers, in sizes, weights and shades. Now, if you put a mill, a plant to
make one hundi'ed and fifty or two hundred tons a day, — most of them are making as
much as 200 tons a day of that class of paper. They start on the first of January -ind
run to the thirty-first of December, making the same paper all the time, the same con-
ditions.

Q. There is no loss of time? — A. No, but there is a saving in material. We have
to change our machines in the mills, perhaps three or four times a week, and every time
we change the paper there is a loss of material.

Q. What is that news print mill, what is the capacity of it to-day ? — A. The largest
mill we have is 20 tons a day, and we find it difficult to keep that going.

Q. What would be the investment in that mill, what would the paper machines
cost ? — A. About sixty-five thousand dollars ($65,000).

Q. The one machine? — A. Yes.

Q. And the other plant in connection with that? — A. The other plant would cost
about $330,000. That mill would cost us about that.

Q. You say you would have to stop that machine to change it three or four times
a week? — A. We have to change it.

Q. What would be the number of hours lost ? — A. We reckon to lose an average of
four hours a day. We tried to get twenty hours ; if we can get nineteen v/e p re doing
pretty well.

Q. Can you give us an estimate of the value of these four hours you think would
affect the cost. What would be the value of say the four hou.rs, including the interest
on the machine and the investment? You have the men's time and the loss, &c., say
53—8

lU liOTAL COMMISSION BE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

applied roughly to a pound of paper? — A. Well, I assume if we could rua that machine
continuously only on paper such as they would do in the United States, I would he glad
to make paper at a ^ c. less than we are doing now.

Q. You think with the stoppage of your mill and the loss of time, &c., it would be
worth J c. to you ? — ^A. I am quite satisfied it would be worth ^ c. more to us.

Q. Is it not a fact that in some of these machines in the States, there are very
large machines making a paper of an extra size, and there is a side sheet that can be
sold at a greatly reduced price ? — A. That happens in all mills where the machines are
very wide. If the machine is 160 inches and you have a machine 140 inches, you have
20 inches to spare ; it would be more economical to run the machines 20 inches vacant,
because you are wearing the centre rolls and the wires ; the machine has not been worn
evenly, and the machine does not cost any more, only the cost for labour.

Q. As a matter of fact do you know that is what occurs in the States very often
when they are offering it at less; it is on account of these extra sheets? — A. Yes, that
is the reason, I think.

Q. Would that account for these low prices that have been cited ? — A. I think it
would account for some of them.

WELLAND D. \NOODRUFF.

Examined hi/ Mr. White, E.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Associa-
tion :

Q. You are connected with the Lincoln Paper Mills I understand? — A. Yes.

Q. In what capacity, are you president? — A. No, I am manager.

Q. What is your average output? — A. We make about twenty -four tons a day.

Q. Where are your mills situated? — A. In ilerritton and St. Catharines. One in
Merritton. We have two mills.

Q. How long have you been in the business? — A. I went into the paper business
in 1881.

Q. When was your news print mill erected ? — A. In 1887.

Q. You are manufacturing new's print now, of course ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is the condition of the mill, is it up to date in every particular? — A. In
every particular it is up to date.

Q. Conditions favourable to manufacturing 'i — A. Yes, sir, water power.

Q. Has it been remodelled since 1888 ? — A. About two and a half years ago I re-
modelled it and speeded it up to put new wires in.

Q. You are a member of this Paper Makers' Association of Canada ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have been for some years ? — A. Yes, sir, the paper mills have been since 1880. I
think they joined somewhere around there. We erected our mill in 1878.

Q. You are aware of course that the minimum price fixed in 1900 for news print
■was $2.50 with the usual discount, 3 per cent off thirty days ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you in favour of that price being fixed at the time ? — -A. Yes, sir.

Q. What were the reasons that induced the paper makers to adopt that price at that
time? — A. Supply and demand. That the cost of supply and demand of the raw ma-
terial advanced and enlianced the value of our raw stock to go into this. To make a
profit we had to advance.

Q. You are aware in 1898 and 1899 paper had been sold at a lower rate than this ? —
A. Yes.

Q. Is it your experience that $2.50 at the time fixed, has yielded undue profits ?
—A. No.

Q. From your experience, if you were investing to-day, from your experience, if
you were investing the amount of money required to erect a paper mill, would you con-

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 115

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

aider that an attractive investment ? — A. No, sir, there is not a good enough return for
the money invested; from a manufacturing point it is a poor paying business.

Q. At the prices you are getting ? — A. Yes, sir, for the manufacturer.

Q. Wliat is the approximate cost of a mill such as yours? — A. Well, we have in the
neighbourhood of $200,000 invested.

Q. That is simply for the manufacture of news print? — A. Of paper.

Q. Ton don't manufacture pulp ? — A. No, sir, buy our own material.

Q. Can you tell us what your raw material costs, sulphite and ground pulp ? — A.
1 put in a statement D-3, showing the cost of sulphite iJulp, the cost of ground wood
pulp, and the averages per ton in 1899, 1900 and 1901 month by month.

Q. Are these figures taken from your books ? — A. Yes.

Q. You know they are the correct prices that you are paying ? — A. Yes, there are
the invoices to show.

Q. Now, during these three years, during the months that are showing in this
statement, D-3, did the price of paper increase proportionately to the price of the raw
material? — A. No, sir.

Q. What changes were there in the price of paper ? — A. We were selling our paper
on an average of about two and a quarter cents.

Q. Were there any other conditions besides the cost of the raw material which led
to the advance in the price of paper ? For instance, was the price of paper affected by
the war, by the supply of news print, &c. ? — A. By the supply and demand, it was
affected very greatly.

Q. Can you say as to whether the re-organization of this association had anything
to do with the advance in the price ? — A. No, sir, I don't think it had.

Q. You are satisfied that the price would have advanced independently of the re-
organization of this association ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you follow the price of paper in the United States during that period? — A.
Yes, some, not very largely.

Q. Did it advance proportionately to the advance in Canada, or was the advance
greater in the States ? — A. The advance was greater than the association price.

Q. How did the conditions of manufacture compare in the United States and
Canada? — A. Well, there is very material difference, their consumption is so much
larger.

Q. What is the total consumption of Canada? — A. The total consumption of Ca-
nada is about 30,000 tons a year.

Q. What is the consumption of one of the large journals in New York, for in-
stance?— A. The New York Journal or New York World is about 33,000 tons a year.

Q. That 30,000 tons, does it include anything besides news print? — A. I think it
takes in wall paper and news print, and there is included in this patent medicine sheets.

Q. The New York World is more than that? — A. About 33,000 tons last year, I
think.

Q. You heard the evidence of Mr. MacFarlane as to the lost time, &c., by the stop-
page of your machine and the change in size and weight, &c., and agree with his evi-
dence?— A. Yes.

Q. Four hours a day would be the average loss? — A. Yes, about that, to change
and make lighter weights.

Q. Would that be equivalent to about Jc. a pound ? — A. Yes, it would be that, I
should think.

Q. Now, when this minimum price was fixed to 2ic., that was intended to apply to
all consumers throughout Canada? — A. Yes.

Q. It applied to the largest consumer in carload lots as well as the smaller ones ?
— A. Yes, it was all 2jc.

Q. Would it not be natural that small consumers in ream lots, would pay more
than large consumers ? — A. Yes, and large consumers, such as any of those large papers
here, the Star or the Olohe, that is one size and one weight, they would use from four

53— 8J

lie, ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

to seven tons of paper a day, and the small consumer uses a few reams a day, and they
are all different sizes and different weights.

Q. Tou heard the evidence in Toronto, I think, of Mr. Dingman and Mr. Preston ?
— A. No, I did not, I heard a part of Mr. Robertson's evidence, that was the last
part of it.

Q. But you have been aware of the existence of this association since you have
been in business? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Were the prices discussed previous to 1900 ? — A. I did not attend the meetings.
I was there as assistant manager. Mr, Phelps, who is now dead, was the man who
attended all previous meetings.

Q. Are you aware that there are a number of paper mills in Canada outside of the
association ? — A. Tes.

Q. How many? — A. Somewhere between fourteen and fifteen.

Q. You heard the list given by Mr. MacParlane? — A. Yes.

Q. You have a knowledge of them? — A. Yes, I know them.

Q. These mills can all make news print ? — A. Any paper machine can make news
print.

Q. Are j'ou aware that some of the people who have been making news print in
the past have gone out of business? — A. I heard so.

Q. Do you know the firm of Alexander Buntin & Co. ? — A. Yes. Eolland, J. C.
Wilson & Co., they have all given it up on account of the low prices.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. Your mills are owned by a company, are they ? — A. Yes.

Q. Joint stock company? — A. Yes.

Q. Does it pay a dividend? — A. Yes.

Q. And has for a good many years ? — A. Well, we did pay a dividend ; we met with
some bad losses in the way of fire and cyclone.

Q. Did it pass the dividend then? — A. We did not pay any dividend during these
years until we made up our losses.

Q. How long were you without paying a dividend ? — A. Between five and six years.

Q. What period? — A. Previous to two years ago.

Q. And recommenced the dividends about 1899 or 1900 ? — A. Yes, in September
three years ago our mills were destroyed by a cyclone that passed there ; we met a
heavy, loss there.

Q. You had to rebuild out of your rest ? — A. We had to rebuild out of our pockets.

Q. Then you have made no estimate, apparently, of the cost of production ? The
estimates that you handed in was the cost of raw material ? — A. No, I have not got any.

Q. This estimate of the cost of raw material, which you have here, you have sim-
ply taken from your books, showing what you have been paying during each month
since Januarj% 1899 ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Then I see that your cost of sulphite, for instance, was from January, 1899,
to September, 1899, uniform at $32 a ton ? — A. Yes.

Q. And then it rose at once to $36 ? — A. Yes.

Q. Any reason for that that you know of ? — A. Why, the cost of the chemical
wood, the cost of chemicals, the cost of wood.

Q. You don't produce that ? — A. I am not a producer of chemicals.

Q. You are not a producer at all ; you simply know that your supi^lier increased
the price he asked of you, from $32 a ton, which he had been content with during the
first nine months of 1899, to $36 a ton ? — A. I don't know whether he was content or
not ; he took it.

Q. Then, I see in February, 1900, it went to $42 ?— A. Yes.

Q. Why that extra six dollars ? — A. Supply and demand.

Q. There was no association that you know of among the producers of sulphite ? —
A. No, sir.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE H7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. That was just regulated by the law of supply and demand ? — A. Yes.

Q. Demand increased ? — A. I cannot say. Yes, I think demand increased some
during the war.

Q. Demand did increase on you, I mean all the paper manufacturers ? — A. Yes.

Q. And that would make the demand for the raw material that you used, in-
crease ? — A. Everything that we know of increased during 1S99.

Q. That would be, of course, one of the universal laws of supply and demand ? — •
iA. Yes.

Q. As the demand increased, supposing the supply did not increase correspond-
ingly, yoii would find prices go up ? — A. Yes.

Q. Why did not you people in the association leave the uniform laws of supply
and demand regulate the cost that you were charging ? — A. We did ; we made a uni-
form price. We could charge what we wanted.

Q. When did you find it necessary to combine yourselves imder a penalty not to
sell below that figure when the demand was increasing ? — A. It was a fair profit on
the workings.

Q. What I cannot understand ; will you please explain to me the object of impos-
ing a penalty on any one of your members who would undersell that figure, when the
demand was increasing ? — A. When we made that price, it was a fair price for news.
The demand fixed the price.

Q. Why fine a man for going below the price that you were selling at ?

Witness : Why fine a man

Counsel : Yes, why fine him ? — A. I did not have anything to do with the fining
of the men.

Q. You were present at the meetings and you understand what motives caused
your association to fix the minimum price ? — A. Because it was a fair price.

Q. Why not let the laws of supply and demand regulate it ? — A. So we did. We
passed regulations fixing the minimum price for our goods and whoever could get more
than that was making that much more profit.

Q. You imposed on any one of your members who transgressed that rule and
sold under that rate, a penalty, and I cannot understand why you should do that, if
you were letting supply and demand regulate it. Can you explain to me why you did
that ? Why were you afraid that some of your members might be tempted to under-
sell ? — A. I don't know as I quite understand that.

Q. We have heard after your association had been for years in existence, we have
heard on the 21st February, 1900, a very rigid, ne\v agreement entered into, men de-
positing $500 in a common fund to bind themselves to each other that thej' would not
sell under a certain figure? — A. I consider our old agreement was just as binding as
that.

Q. But apparently your association was not content with binding its members in
honour; they wanted the deposit of a certain amount of money? — A. Tliat is always
safer.

Q. I want to know why that penalty was imposed, when you had a rising market
for supply and demand? — A. It was not fixed so much by that. It was fixed so that
no man would be tempted to take and cut another man.

Q. So there would be a counter-temptation ? — A. To bind a man's honour.

Q. To bind his pocket as well as his honour, his interest as well as his honour ?— A.
Of course.

Q. Of course tlie increased demand you were then feeling did not in any way in-
crease the cost of production? — A. Yes.

Q. How? — A. In the raw material.

Q. To you people who did not manufacture your own raw material ? — A Yes.

Q. You just bring us here the increased cost of sulphite and ground wood? — A.
That was my raw material.

118 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. But the majority of the large mills manufacture their own pulp? — A. No, there
are only a few of them.

Q. Take those who do and who belong to this combine of yours, they of course
did not feel any increase in cost of raw material ? — A. I think they did.

Q. In what respects ? — A. The wood itself.

Q. How ? Did the wood itself go up in price ? — A. No, sir, there was a shortage of
water all over America.

Q. A shortage of water-power ? — A. No, sir, a shortage of water ; they could not
get out their logs to market.

Q. The cost of raw material did not uniformly increase, because we find while
the cost of sulphite increased in 1899, we find the cost of ground wood went down from
$17 to $12.50 for August and September ? — A. Yes.

Q. That does not arise in the cost of raw material at all. That of course, was not
an increase but a diminution in the cost of that raw material ? — A. That was in 1899-

Q. That was at this very time when you are speaking of the increased cost of get-
ting the iiulp wood to the mills? — A. No.

Q. Why not ? — A. You get your pulp wood earlier in the spring to the mills. The
shortage came after that. When they went to the wood to cut, it had been for the next
year.

Q. Was not this period of drought that you speak of during 1899? — A. The hot
months have nothing to do with the getting out of the logs. It is cut in the winter
and floated with the rains in the spring.

Q. When was this period of drought that you speak of? — A. The latter end of 1899.

Q. Do you mean the fall months? — A. Yes.

Q. These are not the months of the year during which they float wood down the
streams at all? — A. But those are the months when the men in the woods can tell what
they can get out.

Q. I cannot understand how the drought is applied to the floatation of wood to the
factories, how the drought of that period of the year could affect the matter at all. It
is floated to the mills in the spring and that is all over by June? — A. Yes.

Q. And then you don't recommence until the snow comes again? — A. Yes, but if
they have no snow in the woods and cannot get in there during the earlier part of the
winter when they go there, it eertaiidy causes a shortage of wood.

Q. Then, the drought that you speak of could not have affected the price of ground
wood in August or September, 1899 ? — A. I was speaking about after the August and
September of 1899. After that I don't think it affected that.

Q. Then, let us exclude the drought altogether. I find from your figures that in
September and August, 1899, there was a reduction from $17.50 to $12 a ton in the cost
of that ground wood ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was not any increase in the cost of raw material there, but your only
increase was the cost of sulphite? — A. Then it advanced after that; it advanced very
heavily.

Q. Then, your mills manufacture news print particularly ? — A. No, we have our
other mills which manufacture what we call manilla made from rope and jute.

Q. The pulp-wood, does not come into that at all? — A. It is a separate mill.

Q. One of your mills is devoted to news print altogether? — A. No, I made news
print, and what we call wood manillas.

Q. In that mill? — A. Yes, it is practically the same, only it is for the dry goods
trade.

Q. Does this agreement of yours of last February relate to the output of these other
mills or to anything except the output of news print ? — A. Yes. It takes in the man-
illas ; we call it wrapping. There is news and wrapping.

Q. It just relates to those two lines ? — A. That is all.

Q. Does it cover the whole of the output? — A. Well, paper, yes, and wrapping.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 119

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Then, you think that the association had nothing to do with the advance in
prices? — A No, I think the prices would have advanced if there had never been an
association.

Q. That makes it all the more difficult for me to understand why you should have
gone to the trouble to require a deposit from different signatories to bind your people
so formally not to undersell? — A. It was for the mutual benefit of all manufacturers.
Our association was not formed to undersell each other.

Q. It had existed in that shape for twenty years? — A. Yes.

Q. And then, for some reason or other, you reorganized or entered into this new
form of agreem'^nt of February, 1900, and you want to tell us, as I understand, in your
testimony that that had nothing to do with the contemporaneous advance in prices? — ■
A. That our association had nothing to do, or do you mean the prices were fixed ?

Q. I understood your evidence to be that in your judgment the association had
nothing to do with the advance in prices, was that right ? — A. I don't think, on the
general advance in prices, that our association had anything to do with it. News print
would have advanced if we never had an association.

Q. Let me understand. Do you mean that the agreement which you entered into
in February, 1000, had nothing to do with the advance in price, or merely that the
circumstances of your being banded together had nothing to do with it? — A. It meant
if we had no association whatever, supply and demand would put news jarint beyond
2jc. a pound.

Q. That is, in other words, the demand hali so increased, each manufacturer would
be able to get more than 2Jc. for his print ? — A. Yes.

Q. It would not have cost him any more except the cost of the raw material ? — A.
Yes.

Q. And the difference to him would be an additional profit ? — A. Yes.

Q. That leaves it unexplained why you should enter into this bond with each other
and as to that, is there anything further you can tell me with regard to that? — A. No.

Q. Were you at the meeting when it was decided on ? You thought it a thing in
the interest of your business to go into ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was that the first meeting you had attended ? — A. I did attend one or two
meetings with ilr. Phelps in the city of Montreal. No, before February we had an
agreement.

Q. You had an agreement among the producers ? — A. Yes, in other lines, not
in news print.

Q. But in other lines of production ? — A. Yes.

Q. And did you have it under the sanction of the penalty in the same way as
this ?— A. No.

Q. This was a new feature ? — A. An improvement.

Q. To whom are we indebted for that new featiu-e ? — A. I cannot say that.

Mr. White objects to this question as being irrelevant.

The Commissioner. — ^I do not think that you have any interest in asking that.

Q. You speak, Mr. Woodruff, as Mr. MacFarlane did, of the time lost in changing
the mill from one size to another ? — A. Yes.

Q. Let me know, without going into these details of your business at all about how
much of your output would be taken by, say your largest ciistomer in the line of news
print ? — A. Oh, I don't make news print as a rule on a contract for any of the large
papers. I could not keep any stock of various sizes. I make some rolls and sheets
to keep it in stock for various sizes in the trade through the country.

Q. Take Ontario, for instance, the size of the ordinary rural newspaper is uni-
form ? — A. No, different sizes and different widths.

Q. There is not much difference in the width in the column ? — A. No, I mean
the sheets would be different sizes and different weights. Some papers run 23 x 35
and 24 x 36, 28 pounds, 30 pounds and 32 pounds, and so on.

Q. The different customers of yours take different kinds of articles from you ? —
A. Yes.

120 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. But your customers from year to year are tolerably uiiifonn ? — A. No, I can-
not say that.

Q. When you have a good customer, he is likely to stay with you unless he is dis-
satisfied ? — A. I try to keep him as long as I can.

Q. You have some contracts from year to year 2 — A. No, I have not.

Q. Take your largest customer and tell me how long it would take you to turn
out all the news print that customer would require for a year's consumption, or six
months' consiimption ? — A. Well, I think the largest customer I have been selling
lately has been the British Whig of Kingston, E. J. B. Pence ; he uses four carloads
a year.

Q. How long would it take you to turn that out ? — A. Eight to ten days.

Q. In eight or ten days you would be able to supply him ? — A. Yes.

Q. Don't customers, like him, in fact, don't the majority of your customers buy
six months' supply at one time ? — A. No, not on contract.

Q. But in one order ? — A. I cannot say that they do.

Q. Take the British Whig, that is a fair sample, the Kingston city newspaper,
and probably a dozen newspapers in Ontario with equal circulation, some probably
larger, would not such men take six months' supply at once ? — A. He doesn't.

Q. How much is his habit ? — A. He buys a carload at a time.

Q. Which would run him about how long ? — A. About three months.

Q. So that four times a year would be as often as he would get any renewal ? — A.
That is as often as I have sold him.

Q. Would that be an average thing, that the newspaper men would get in three
months' supply at a time ? — A. Some of them do and some don't.

Q. Some get more at once, some of them supply tliemselves for six months ahead ?
— A. Some of them might. I cannot tell if any customer supplies himself for six
months ahead, I don't know of any.

Q. If you have a set of customers tolerably uniform, do you wish us to understand
that in making the change you would necessarily have to make in your machines to
supply such customers, you would lose one-sixth of your whole working time? — A. Yes.

Q. Lying idle while you are making the change ? — A. The whole mill lies idle while
you are making the change on the machines.

Q. That would make one day out of six, the year round ? — A. Yes.

Q. You said there were some mills outside the combine, do you know whether, in
fact, these mills make news print ? — A. Yes.

Q. And they don't undersell you ? — A. I don't know.

Q. You have not heard of it in your business, have you ? — A. Yes, I have heard
of it.

Q. You have heard of some of them underselling ? — A. Yes.

Q. To any extent ? — A. Yes.

Q. To what extent ? — ^A. I have heard of the Laurentide Company underselling.

Q. To what extent ? — A. They have sold in Canada below our association price.

Q. Do you mean your present association price or your association price prior to
a month ago ? — A. Two and a half cents. I am speaking of prior to a month ago.

Q. When you were selling at two and a half cents, they were underselling you ? —
A. Yes.

Q. To what extent ? — A. I cannot say ; it is only hearsay. I cannot prove it.

Q. But giving the best information you can give me, was it at the time you were
asking two and a half cents, according to association figures, they were selling at
some smaller figure ? — A. Yes.

Q. You cannot tell me the figure ? — A. No.

Q. You cannot remember or you have forgotten ? — A. I cannot tell you ; it was
somewhere below 2ic.

Q. I don't suppose you want to suggest that they were selling at a loss ? — A. I
don't know ; I never went into their books ; they run their own business.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 121

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Ee-e.ramined by Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association : —

Q. Before that last agreement was signed in 1900 what had been the condition of
the trade amongst paper manufacturers ? — A. The trade for the last previovis six
months had been in a good liealthy state. We considered it so. We were advancing
prices right along on it.

Q. Your selling is largely done by travellers ? — A. Yes.

Q. It is one of the objects of your association to give these travellers uniform
discounts, to control the travellers ? — A. Yes.

Q. Before this association was reorganized, had the travellers certain discretion ?
— A. Yes, they did in some respects.

Q. How were they exercising them ? — A. By what the newspaper man would tell
him. The other fellow would tell him the day before what he would offer the paper at.
The newspaper men were working the travellers for all they were worth.

Q. That was unsatisfactory to the manufacturer ? — A. Yes.

Q. Of course, if you run off, as in the case of the British Whig, if you run off a
year's supply in ten days, you would have to carry that and there would be a loss of
interest ? — A. I would have to have large storehouses to carry that ahead.

Q. It would mean a very large cost on production ? — A. Yes.

Q. There would be no economy in making this year's supply in 10 days and storing
it, as against changing your machine — A. Not at all.

Re-cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, representing the Press Association :

Q. You are running day and night ? — A. Yes.

Q. And you have been for how long ? — A. Since 1878.

Q. That is a general thing with paper manufacturers ? — A. Yes.

EVIDENCE TAKEN AT MONTREAL, 4th JULY, 1901.

WILLIAM D. GILLEAN.

Examined hy Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso-
ciation : «

Q. Mr. Gillean, you are the assistant managing director of the Canada Paper
Company of Montreal ? — A. Yes.

Q. Have you been engaged in the paper business some years ? — A. May be
thirty-five years.

Q. Your company is a member of the Paper Trade Association ? — A. I believe so.

Q. During the year 1900 the Association fixed the price of news print in carload
lots at 2J cents, with the discount three months, with three per cent off thirty days ? —
A. Yes.

Q. What was the market price, or the general condition of the market at the time,
in the previous year to that, that is in the year 1899 ; what was the state of the market
in Canada? — A. The state of the market. The price was lower ; thd demand not so
large.

Q. During the year 1899, were you making contracts for news prints with various
newspapers? — A. Always doing, every year.

Q. What is the practice in regard to these contracts ? For what terms are they
generally made ? — A. Newspapers make from one to two years. There are exceptions
beyond two years, but one to two years is the general rule.

Q. Did the price increase the following year, 1900 ? — A. Yes, remarkably.

122 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. What was the cause of that increase ? "Was it due to the formation of the asso-
ciation ? — A. I think not.

Q. Explain to us how ? — A. The extra demand on account of the two wars, and
the drought that season of water, consequently a lot of mills were obliged to shut down
that were run by water-power.

Q. That would affect the output ? It would reduce the output of the mills running
by water-power ? Not having a sufficient supply of water they had to close down or
run short ? — A. Yes.

Q. Apart from that what was the cause ? — A. The high advance in raw materials.

Q. You mean the pulp wood and chemicals ? — A. The three kinds of pulp, pulp
wood, coal and other factors connected with the manufacture of paper.

Q. Can you give us any idea of the advance in pulp wood, about the percentage,
roughly ? — A. I think pulp wood advanced about 25 per cent.

Q. And coal ? — A. Well, I can tell you more about coal. In 1887 and 1888 our
coal, what we used for drying purposes cost us $4 a ton laid down at the mill. Our last
supply in 1900 cost $5.90 laid down showing an advance of about 50 per cent for coal.

Q. What price were you getting for paper in 1900 ? ^\^lat was the market price,
after the formation or the reorganization of this association ? — A. Two and a half
cents.

Q. It was the minimum price fixed by the association ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was that lower than the market price or were you getting higher prices ? — A.
No, in many cases we were selling for less.

Q. Were you also selling for more ? — A. In many cases, more.

Q. How were you selling for less if the association price was fixed ? — A. Con-
tracts made in 1899 to run over 1900, and contracts made the year prior, which we were
obliged to carry out over 1900.

Q. Wliat I want to get at is : What was the market price apart from the price
fixed by the association ? What would you consider the market price would have been
if there had been no association ? — A. It would be fully that price, probably a little
higher on account of these conditions.

Q. Did you follow the prices in the United States during the year ? — A. Yes,
pretty closely.

Q. Can you give us the figures ? What was the market price in the United States
in 1899-1900 ? — A. The market price for news print in 1899, ran from two to two
and a quarter cents.

Q. Can you establish that by any trade journals. Have you any data for that ?
— A. I have for 1900 ; in 1900 the prices advanced materially.

Q. Give us the price for 1900. We are speaking of news print only ? — A. Here is
the Paper Trade Journal for May 23rd, 1900, which is considered a reliable authority
regarding the paper trade in the United States, and the prices they give as a rule are
fairly correct. Here is the price in May, 1900. Speaking of news print running from
3 to 3Jc.

Q. Is that under the same conditions and the same quantities ? Is the price fixed
by the quantities ? — A. Two and a half.

Q. Does that give a shading price ? — A. You are speaking now of the price that
would compare with $2.50 fixed by the association ?

Q. Here is June, yes, June, 1900 ? — A. The price then 2jc. to 3c. That is Jc.
reduction in June. Now we will take October 3, 1900, news print ruling in New York
was then 2jc. to 2|e. That is three periods of the year.

Q. During that year were you an active member of the association? Were you in
the executive yourself ? — A. Not on the executive but I was a member representing
our company of course.

Q. Did the Canadian association increase the minimum price during that year
from $2.50 ? — A. No, it remained stationary.

Q. Although the ruling prices in the States were higher ? — A. Yes, also in Eng-
land.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 123

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. What were they in England ? — A. I have nothing to show you, but 1 can give
you what a prominent newspaper man informed me during 1900.

Q. What were the prices '( — A. Ramsden, a large paper manufacturer in
Lancashire, informed me that they were getting last summer for news print from a
penny halfpenny to two pence ; prior to that he was selling paper at a penny and a
penny farthing, and it jumped up from one-half to three-quarter cents in England,
and he is a paper maker who makes three hundred tons a week.

Q. And you believe the prices were higher in the States and in England than those
fixed in Canada ? — A. Yes.

Q. During 1800 did you sell any paper to Mr. Tarte of La Patrie ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you under contract with Mr. Tarte ? — A. No.

The Comsiissioner. — Speaking of Mr. Tarte, his evidence has never been con-
cluded ? — A. He was to be here to-day.

By Mr. White, K.C., resuming : —

Q. Mr. Tarte was examined as one of the first witnesses in this Commission and
he referred to having purchased certain paper from you. Will you please explain the
circumstances under which this sale was made and at what prices, &c. ? — A. In April,
1900, Mr. Tarte was under contract with a paper company who unfortunately met with
a fire.

Q. You are referring to the Eddy Company ? — A. Yes. He then was driven to his
wits' end for paper. He appealed to me as a favour to give him some paper to keep him
going until he could make arrangements.

Q. What was the condition of the mills at the time ? — A. They were all very full
on account of the demand.

Q. The demand had increased and it was very difficult to buy pajier ? — A. Yes, so
I helped Mr. Tarte with two or three carloads to help him out. There was no question
of price at all ; otherwise he had great difficulty in getting it. To keep him going, I
supplied it.

Q. It appears the price charged was 3c. ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you tell him the price was 3c. because of the existence of the association ?
— A. No, not at all.

Q. Did Mr. Tarte understand at the time that the price was 3c. because of the
diffieulty of obtaining paper, and that was the market price, not because of the exist-
ence of this association at all ? — A. Not at all.

Cross-examined iy Mr. Aylesworih, K.C., representing the Press Associa-
tion : —

Q. Your company, of course, has joined this association ? — A. I believe so.

Q. And did so since it was formed ? — A. Yes, I think so ; shortly after.

Q. And has remained a member from that time until this ? — A. Of course there
has been an association for many years.

Q. But the old association, we are told by the manufacturers, has been merged
into the present one ? — A. Yes.

Q. And was there any such fixing of prices before the reorganization or the agree-
ment of 1900 ?

Witness. — In the old association ?

Counsel. — Yes.

A. Oh, the prices and terms of contract were always discussed, responsibility, &c.

Q. That is not what I asked you. I ask you if there was any fixing of prices under
a penalty on those who did not adhere ? — A. I cannot remember as far as penalty is
concerned.

Q. What was the idea in introducing that feature into the long established asso-
ciation ?

124 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

i-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
Witness. — The penalty ?

Counsel. — What was the idea of introducing that feature of fixing prices and re-
quiring a deposit of $500 as a security ? — A. I believe to keep faith with one another,
as far as terms and responsibility are concerned.

Q. You were making the terms of credit a little more favourable to the seller and
a little more disadvantageous to the buyer ? — A. Oh, I think not.

Q. What was the ordinary term of credit prior to February, 1900 ? — A. Three and
four months.

Q. What discount for cash ? — A. Three per cent, sometimes five per cent ; not
on news print, I don't know of any case.

Q. I speak subject to correction, but I think several witnesses spoke of getting
five per cent for cash ? — A. We never gave it.

Q. You gave three per cent on news print with four montlis period of credit ? — -
A. Three and four.

Q. Frequently four? — A. Yes.

Q. Well, then the effect of this agreement which you were all binding yourselves
to keep to in February, 1900, was to reduce that period of credit to three months uni-
formly, and impose a pretty heavy penalty upon any member who did not adliere to
the price which the association established. What was the object of that ? — A. The
object was, to those in the association who agreed to those rules so far as credit terms,
and cash discount and the matter of waste on white paper and other papers, to see
that they would agree, I suppose, largely to make it more binding, but it was never
carried out to my knowledge.

Q. Was it never carried out ? — A. No fine or penalty.

Q. There was never a case where a man was called on to be fined ? They were
always willing to adhere to the prices ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you correct your mind as to the objects with which this was done. You
cannot give any better explanation as to the object ? — A. It was to maintain prices,
terms and responsibility.

Q. To benefit the members of the association ? — A. It must be some benefit.

Q. And it was not at all to keep down the price ; you could trust the buyer to do
that for himself ? — A. He would look after that himself.

Q. I rather understand from your explanation to Mr. White that your view of
it is that prices would have been higher if it had not been for this association during
the twelve months of 1900, do you mean that ? — A. It might have been.

Q. Anything might have been. Do you mean it to be understood, in your judg-
ment, that they would have been ? — A. If you fix a certain price, you feel bound to
carry it out. If there is an open market it depends on circumstances.

Q. It does not seem to me that is answering what I asked you at all. I am asking
you if you mean to convey the impression that in your view, this association kept down
prices, that they would have been higher if there had been no association ? — A. I think
in some cases they would have been.

Q. There was no maximum price fixed by the asociation. You can go as high as
you liked ? — A. Yes.

Q. Explain to me, if you can, how, in any instance, the fact of that association
existing could lower the price ? — A. It could not lower the price.

Q. It would not have tliat effect ? — A. No.

Q. Well, you spoke of the market price in 1900 probably being a little higher than
the association price ; was there any market in Canada, as a market, fixing the price
outside of the association price ? — A. Not as far as Canada was concerned.

Q. But as far as Canada was concerned there was no other price other than the
association price ? — A. No.

Q. What were you referring to in answering me in 1900 the market price was prob-
ably a little higher than the association price. Was that in other countries ? — A. In
other countries.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 125

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. In the United States in full operation in 1900 the International Association ?
—A. Yes.

Q. Had been then for fully twelve months ? — A. Yes.

Q. In co-operation with the Canadian association ? — A. Not to my knowledge
whatever.

Q. Have you been an active member personally or actively attending at the meet-
ings of the Canadian association ? — A. Oh, quite a few meetings.

Q. You have been present at the majority ? — A. Quite a number of them.

Q. Have you been present when communications were read with the International?
—A. Yes.

Q. And they were not acting in any way hostile with you ? — A. No.

Q. It would be quite right to say they were acting in accord with you ? — A. I
think not ; I don't think they did.

Q. What was the purpose of corresponding with them if you were not acting in
harmony ? — A. I had no knowledge of their asking us in any way to work with them
at all.

Q. Then you were writing and arranging for conferences ? — A. There was a letter
passed ; the company wanted to have a conference with us, but I don't think it was ever
carried out.

Q. Was there never any conference ? — A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. Nor any arranged by letter ? — A. I thinlc not.

Q. As to neither of you invading the territory of the other or anything of that
sort ? — A. Never heard of that.

Q. Supposing there were any outside circumstances like associations to affect the
prices either in the United States or Canada, which country would you say, from your
Jmowledge of the business, ought to be able to produce paper more cheaply, having re-
gard, I mean, to the natural advantages of raw material, cost of carriage, &c. ? —
A. It depends on conditions.

Q. Could it not be said generally, either in Canada or the United States, that the
one country could — suppose there was nothing to regulate prices more than the natural
play of supply and demand — produce more cheaply than the other ? — A. Given the
same conditions we ought to be able to produce as cheaply.

Q. What do you mean by conditions ? — A. Quantity and demand.

Q. Raw material ought to be cheaper here, I suppose ? — A. It is fully as cheap.

Q. Costs more to get the raw material to the factory in the United States than in
Canada ? — A. Well, those who export it, or those who take it over. That does not refer
to those who have their own mills in the United States.

Q. There is limited production, not unlimited, in the United States ? — A. They are
getting wood there yet.

Q. Suppose you take a factory equi-distant from the source of supply, so far as
the source of spruce is concerned, one situated in Canada and the other in the United
States — can the United States factory produce its output any more cheaply than the
Canadian manufacturer, supposing they have an equal haul of their wood ? — A. The
same cost of raw material ?

Q. I am not saying anything about the cost of it. Is it any more expensive to
bring a supply of wood to the factory in the United States than in Canada ? — A. I
think not.

Q. There ought then to be no advantage in favour of the United States producer,
so far as this pulp wood is concerned ? — A. Not much.

Q. Would there be in respect of any of the other raw material ? — A. I think not.

Q. Taking it generally, the Canadian manufacturer ought to be able to produce
quite as cheaply as the United States ? — A. Yes, if it had large orders, the same
side orders.

Q. Then you speak of the cost of raw material, in your evidence to Mr. White, of
difference between the cost of coal comparing the year 1900 with 1880 ? — A. I think
1887 or 1888 I said.

1-26 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Why that comparison ? Did you mean 1898 ? — A. It was 1898. It was a mis-
take.

Q. You mean to say in two years, from 1898 to 1900, there was an advance in coal
of nearly fifty per cent? — A. Very near.

Q. Has the advanced price continued ? — A. It is still in effect now.

Q. Was it unusually low in 1898 ? — A. No, a fair price.

Q. Tout dollars ? — A. Four dollars at the ruling price.

Q. It had been higher than that before ? — A. Yes, but it got down.

Q. That particular year, it was a little low ? — A. I think that price followed two
or three years.

Q. So long ? — A. I think so.

Q. My recollection is that all coal was cheaper that year than it has been since ? —
A. Two or three years it remained fairly low.

Q. But prior to that time, it had been up to the level of the present prices ? — A. I
think not. We are speaking of steam coal. It is not house coal.

Q. Take a factory such as yours, consuming the quantitj- of coal you do, and
having an outjnit such as you have told me, how much increased price would it call
for to equal a rise of say $2.00 a ton in the coal you consume, suppose all your other
expenses remain uniform ? — A. That is a question I cannot well answer, because I don't
look after the practical part of the business.

Q. You could not advise us how much of this price is properly referable to coal ?
— ^A. I could not say that.

Q. Whj' did you select these particular dates that you did for prices you quoted
from the United States market during 1900 ? Were they simply hap-hazard ? — A.
Different periods of the year.

Q. Did you note any other dates ? — A. No, I just looked over about a dozen copies.
These are different dates and different periods of the year.

Q. You have the issue of the 24th May. How often is this paper issued ? — A.
Once a week.

Q. Did you bring these three numbers simply hap-hazard or did you look at any
other numbers ? — A. I looked at other numbers.

Q. Why did you select these ? — A. Because those, I find, fairly represent the
periods of each of those years.

Q. I notice one of these is 24th May and the other the 6th June only a couple of
weeks apart, then you go clear to October ? — A. Well, I had nothing prior to May.

Q. Wliy did you not bring all that you looked at ? — A. These were, I thought,
fairly representative of the prices at the time.

Q. Were there prices in others yoii looked at and even lower prices ? — A. No, sir,
1 did not find any lower in any I looked at.

Q. How many did you look at besides those you brought ? — A. About a dozen all
told.

Q. You did not find any higher or any lower ? — A. No.

Q. They were all about uniform ? — A. Yes.

Q. These three were not uniform ? — A. Over these periods. You see the price in
May was higher than in June ; in October it was lower than it was in June.

Q. You must have found some that were higher or lower ? — A. Some higher ; I
did not find one lower.

Q. That looks as though they were pretty absolutely uniform from one end of the
year to the other ? — A. That represents the highest and the lowest.

Q. How do they quote the variation, in J's of a cent ? — A. Quartei'S, I think.

Q. So they range since that time from 2i to 3c. ; 2ic. in October ;■ 3c. in May '(
— A. ic. the range is in these three different dates.

Q. These were the general ruling prices in that periodical, in tlie markets of the
United States for this quality of paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. There is no indication as to the conditions of the contracts under which these
prices would be taken ? — A. No.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 127

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Have you any knowledge on that point ? — A. No.

Q. You don't know what their custom is as to waste ? — A. No.

Q. Or whether they have any rule as your association has as to equalization points
for freight ? — A. I could not say.

Q. Does your knowledge of the trade enable you to tell me whether England pro-
duces all of its own paper, or v^hether it has to be imported ? — A. Oh, it imports some.

Q. Free of duty, I siippose ? — A. Free of duty.

Q. So that the quality being equal, the price of the manufactured paper there
could be by the manufacturer made equal to the price imported ? — A. It could be.

Q. And I suppose the price of the imported would in your view, largely Bcgulato
the English market ? — A. Oh, to a certain extent.

Q. So that if your association here and another association in the United States
did put up the price, the English manufacturer would get the benefit of it ? — A. Partly.
Well, to a certain extent. Of course, there is home consumption.

Q. How large was this contract of yours with Mr. Tarte ? For what quantity ?—
A. Oh, I think we sold him two or three carloads to keep him going for a short while.

Q. Perhaps two or three carloads ? — A. Yes.

Q. No written contract, just telephone conversation ? — A. Yes.

Q. And you just made the price three cents uniformly all around ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was just a sort of scarcity price ? — A. I thought it quite a fair price.

Q. Half a cent more than your association price ? — A. That paper we sold him
we might be getting more than 2J cents for it.

Q. What I want to know, was whether you were doing it as a favour to him, or
whether you were charging him scarcity prices ? — A. He appeared quite pleased to get
it.

Q. He had to get his paper or stop his publication ? — A. Well, he put it that way
to me.

Q. And if you charged him 4 cents he w'ould have had to pay it and look happy ?
At any rate, 3 cents was the price you made ? — A. We charged him three cents.

Q. There were no considerations of any kind, no advantages to you or disadvan-
tage to him connected with the transaction ? — A. No, it was simply a straight bargain
of 3 cents a pound for that quality of this paper.

Re-examined hy Mr. ^Yhite, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers' AssO'
ciaiion :

Q. Will you look at this trade journal again and give us the highest and the lowest
prices in that trade? — A. The lowest price is 2 J cents and 2| cents.

Q. The lowest is 2i cents ? — A. Yes.

Q. What is the highest ? — A. 3J cents.

Q. When you said, in answer to my learned friend, in all the papers you examined,
those were the lowest and the highest prices, you meant prices fluctuated between 2J
cents and SJ cents ? — A. Yes, I looked at those at random.

Q. You found no lower than 2Jc. and no higher than 3|c. ? — A. No.

C The term ' International Association ' was used in referring to the United
States production, do you know of any International Association in the States ? — A.
No, there is an International Paper Company.

Q. That is an incorporated company ? — A. Yes.

Q. Are not there other companies in the States ? — A. Several others.

Q. Is it not a company that controls all the output of the States ? — A. No.

Q. There are many mills outside of that company ? — A. The Great Northern is
equally large.

Q. Did you say equally important ? — A. Not quite, but almost as large.

Q. You never heard of any arrangement or understanding between the Paper
Makers' Association and this International Paper Company ? — A. Never, no knowledge
whatever.

12f^ ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Had your company ever tried to buy paper iu the States during the year 1900 ?
—A. They did.

Q. Were you buying any large quantities ? — A. We tried to buy in April or May,
1900.

Q. What quantity did you try to buy ?— A. 500 to 1,000 tons.

Q. At what price ? — A. They wanted 3c., and as a favour they would make it 2jc.

Q. What discount ? — A. About the same, 2i per cent.

Q. Tou were asked if the effect of the association was to lower prices. Is it not
a fact that you knew that all the members of your association were bound by this uni-
form price of 2Jc. ? — A. Yes.

Q. And it would be useless to ask higher prices ? — A. Yes.

Q. But have the effect of lowering prices, because otherwise you might have got
higher prices, you said the prices you obtained on several occasions were higher than
that ?— A. Yes.

This agreement that has been referred to and produced as Exhibit P — 4, provides
that although the deposit is $500, the power to fine the accused member is an amount
not less than $50 and not more than $500. Do you know of any fines ever having been
imposed at all ?

Witness — Or paid ?

Counsel. — Or paid ?

A. Not to my knowledge.

Q. So that the penalty is not necessarily $500 ? It is from $50 to $500 ? — A. Yes.

Q. Will you explain a little more fully what you mean by the different conditions
in regard to long runs of paper in the States and Canada as affecting the cost of
production ? — A. There are some newspapers in New York use altogether in one year
as much as we make in Canada all told of news print. There are some mills in the
States fitted up with probably five or six machines, will probably run from the first
of January to the thirty-first December on probably one or two sizes of paper without
any change.

Q. The same quality of paper and the same grade of paper manufactured on this
machine from year's end to year's end ? — A. Yes.

Q. Is there any newspajser in Canada can keep a machine running from year to
year ? — A. Not one in Canada, not to keep one machine going.

Q. Of course the loss is in labour, &c. ? — A. The changing, shutting down and
starting up again. If you could give an order that would run for a mouth you could
do that at a shade less than when we are running for a week or so.

Q. What is the capacity of your news print ?^A. It runs from twenty to twenty-
four tons a day.

Re cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesivorth, K.C., representing the Press Associa-
tion :

Q. With reference to the International, you say it is an incorporated comjiany,
as you understand ? — A. Oh, it is one of these large 'Concerns.

Q. It is what we call vulgarly ' a trust ?' — A. No, it is one corporation.

Q. It is an incorporated company, formed in the year 1898, I am told ? — A. It is.

Q. And with a capital of some $55,000,000 ? — A. Somewhere in that neighbour-
hood.

Q. And formed for the purpose of taking over and operating paper mills that
were then running ? — A. Yes.

Q. Doing so to the extent of some fifty odd mills in the different parts of the
United States ? — A. I would say thirty or forty.

Q. I understood they started with twenty-four and afterwards acquired some
thirty or more ? — A. Possibly.

MIA'VTES OF EVIDENCE 129

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. At the time that company was formed their output constituted 85 per cent
of the total output of the paper manufactured in the United States ?— A. At that
time.

Q. The Northern Company that you spoke of came into operation within the last
twelve months ? — A. Yes.

Q. And any other companies there are in the United States are of a formation
since the International fused all the mills that were in operation since that time ? — A..
Since, and some prior to that time.

Q. But taking it as things stand now, the output of the International is more
than two-thirds, nearly three-quarters of all the mills of the United States ? — A. Oh,
no. Well, as far as I think, about probably 60 per cent. I judge from my knowledge.

Q. I thought TO per cent would be nearer right I— A. 1 would say 60 per cent.

Q. From 60 to 70 per cent ?— A. Well, about 60 per cent.

Q. Then you said that association had not, did you say, had not imposed, or had
not exacted any fines from members for infractions ? — A. I have no knowledge of
any fine being paid.

Q. You had knowledge of some being imposed and remitted, had you not ? — A.
No, I don't think any fine had been imposed, to my knowledge, I do not think so.

Q. I thought I observed in looking over the minutes some fine imposed and re-
mitted ? — A. That might be ; I might not-have been at that meeting.

LOUIS J. T.\BTE.

Continuation of cross-examination of Louis Joseph Tarte hy Mr. ^Yhite, K.C.,
representing the Paper Manufacturers' Association:

Q. You were to produce a number of letters which you said you had, and yo\i
said you had a basketful ? — A. No, I did not say a basketful.

Q. With regard to the correspondence you had from the States and elsewhere as to
prices, are you prepared to produce those now ? — A. Here is what I am prepared to
give. I am prejiared to give here the card and the name of the party and the paper
mill that offered me paper sometime ago at $1.85. That gentleman was in my office
and saw me several times.

Q. Is that a Canadian mill ? — A. No, American. I have no quotation from that
mill of $1.85, or delivered in Montreal here, freight and duty paid, at about $2.45,
less 5 per cent.

Q. A. C. Scrimgeour ? He is representing the Manufacturers' Paper Company ?
— A. That was offered to myself and my manager in my office.

Q. Do you remember what date ? — A. Yes, about the month of May. 1900.

Q. The Manufacturers' Paper Company is in the International Company ? — A.
Well no, not so far as that representative told me.

Q. As far as your knowledge goes ? — A. As far as my knowledge goes, yes. .

Q. Well now, where are the other letters which you had, Mr. Tarte ? — -A. What
is it you want ?

Q. You gave us a lot of quotations ; you said you had a lot of correspondence ? — A.
Yes, I had a lot at the time. I said also that I had asked the International Paper
Company and some American mills to quote me prices in Canada, and I found out the
price had gone up, and I had been refused quotations from some Americans and sub-
sequently I had been informed by travellers of the Canadian mills and elsewhere,
American newspapers, that the Canadian mills were combined with the American mills.

Q. Who told you that ? Give us the names of some of those gentlemen who told
you that. — A. Here is a letter from the International people, which refused to give
me quotations. I produce as P — 39, letter dated New York, May 11th, 1900.

Q. What are the names of those gentlemen who told you that the United States
International Company and the Canadian Manufacturers' Association were in accord ?
— A. I had some friends in the newspaper line.

Q. Don't you remember their names ? — A. Yes, Hermann Rodger, of New York.
53—9

ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. That is the gentleman referred to in that letter ? — A. Yes. He told me he
•was liable to think they were combined, and then a few days after that

Q. Is he a jobber ? — A. No, he is a very big newspaper publisher, the New York
Stein Zeitung. There was a representative of one of the American mills came here
and he could not give me a quotation — that the Otis Falls mills, as far as I remember
and several mills had combined and they had decided with the Laurentide or the repre-
sentatives of the Laurentide not to come into Canada to quote prices where they were
quoting. That was the reason why, if the Laurentide was in position to fulfil my con-
tract, they would not quote.

Q. Where was this contract at $1.85 to be supplied ? — A. From the United States
Manufacturers' Paper.

Q. Where are the mills ? — A. I forget.

Q. Was that price of $1.85 delivered in Montreal ? — A. I said $2.45 less 5 per
cent ; subsequently to that, that was one of the first conversations I had. This
gentleman told me if I was willing to give them my business they would do still better.

Q. And you did not arrange with them ? — A. I was in no hurry ; I am getting
paper at 2c. now and am perfectly satisfied.

Q. So you had no more exact information about any arrangement than this
statement of Mr. Rodger's ? That was the only exact information you had ? — A. We
wrote to some of the mills in the United States and they would not give us quotations.

Q. There may have been other reasons for that ? — A. There might have been, but
1 had a letter — I telegraphed to New York, to Parsons Paper Company and we were to
be supplied with a quotation ; we were supplied with a quotation at one time. I for-
get the price now ; I could not find that correspondence this morning. Subsequently
after we were told they had more than they could fill in the United States they were
not anxious to quote in Canada, and what led me to believe they were combined was
that letter I had from the International people, who had promised to give us quota-
tions on a certain date, and instead of doing that, they sent this letter, and I found it
very funny that the International Paper Company should have been acquainted with
the affairs of the Laurentide.

Q. You say one of these quotations was from the Parsons Company ? — A. I said
the International to supply us. When it was time to give us quotations they answer-
ed me back that they knew the Laurentide was ready to take my order.

Q. What was it you said about the Parsons Company ? — A. I asked a quotation
from them.

Q. What kind of paper do they produce ? — A. They produce all kinds.

Q. Are you sure they produce news paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever buy from them ? — A. No.

Q. Is it not a fact that they simply run their mill exclusively on fine writing
paper ? — A. I don't know ; I had been told they were handling news also.

Q. But to your own knowledge ? — A. I found out from American firms and
agencies, &c., as far as my ability could guide me, the names of the manufacturers of
news print in the United States. I say that Parsons quoted me at once, and they gave
me a quotation at first for paper. I forget the price they offered to give me news print
here at.

Q. Have you the letter ? — A. No ; I could not find it.

Q. Have you any other letters ? Let us have these letters you refer to.— A. I
was asked to produce the contract I had with the other company, and the contract I
had with the Laurentide. The Laurentide contract is filed as P — 40 ; Eddy Contract,
filed as P-^1.

Q. That is in quantities of about 40 tons a month more or less, price 2A cents a
pound delivered to user's ofiace in Montreal, terms cash on delivery ? — A. Yes.

. Q. And the other contract is the 10th July, 1899, $2.05 per 100 pounds, all
white waste to be returned and allowed for a contract price, terms of payment,
3 per cent off thirty days, four months, your option ? — A. Yes.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 131

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. This reference you made here to another advantage you had in the way of
advertising, what was the nature of the advertisement ? — A. Woodenware, &c., ad-
vertising matches.

Q. Entirely outside of the paper business ? — A. Paper also, I think, but very
seldom, I think.

Q. And then you have no other correspondence verifying these prices which you
gave us as having been quoted in the States ? — A. No.

Re-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. You spoke of getting your paper now at 2 cents ? — A. Yes, sir ; I have offers
now from Canadian manufacturers for 2 cents. There is another paper in Montreal
has been offered the same thing.

Q. That is your own present contract ? — A. No, I am under contract now.

Q. When was this contract made ? — A. I have not made a contract, but I can
get paper at 2 cents. I am waiting till I get through with the Laurentide to make a
contract. I have been offered paper at 2 cents right this week, so has another paper
in Montreal.

Q. Of Canadian manufacture ? — A. Yes.

Q. You are at present under contract still with the Laurentide ? — A. Yes.

Q. So until that contract expires, you have no need of any further supply ? — A.
No ; I can get paper anyhow from other mills at about 40 cents a 100 pounds less than
I am paying to-day to Canadian mills. In fact I have been buying paper from other
departments for my paper, for which I am not under contract.

Q. How much longer has your contract with the Laurentide to run, do you say ?
— A. I think about two months or three months more.

Re-cross-examined hy Mr. White, E.G., representing the Paper Manufactur-
ers' Association :

Q. Who offered this paper at 2c. ? — A. I would not like to say.

Q. Was it a member of the Paper Makers' Association ? — A. No, sir.

Q. It was not a member of the Paper Makers' Association ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Mills outside ? — A. Yes, I was offered a contract.

Q. By some one outside the Association altogether ? — -A. Here is the offer I got
this week: I got the offer to be supplied with paper, starting Sepetmber or October,
at 2c. and the man offered to deposit $10,000 to the credit of our company to guarantee
he would execute the contract.

Mr. White, K.C. — I would like to have the name, your lordship.

The Commissioner :

Q. Have you any special reason for not giving the name ?

A. Yes, that gentleman has come here and he is investing money in Canada now,
and I have been requested not to give his name.

By Mr. White, E.G. :

Q. Has he mills in operation ? — A. Yes, he has some business in Canada now ;
be is a manufacturer in Canada, but doesn't live in Canada ; he lives in New York.
Q. I would like to insist on having that name ?

The Commissioner. — I would not like to interfere in private business.

By Mr. White, E.G. .

Q. You say some of these mills are working to-day ? — A. Yes, sir, in the Pro-
vince of Quebec, prepared to deliver me paper in October when my contracts are
through.

53—94

13:> ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1502

J. D. ROLLAXD.

Examined by Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso-
ciation :

Q. Mr. Eolland, your firm is a large manufacturer of paper and you have been
in the business for a number of years ? — A. About fifteen years.

Q. You have a very wide experience I understand in all matters connected with the
paper business ? — A. Yes.

Q. Is your company manufacturing news print to-day ? — A. We are not manu-
facturing news print in rolls.

Q. You have the necessary machinery to manufacture news print ? — A. Yes.

Q. You could manufacture it ? — A. Yes.

Q. Will you please explain to us why it is when there is an Association in Canada
and the minimum price fixed at $2.50, you are not in business ? — A. I am not manufac-
turing news print because we are not in position to manufacture at a paying price.
It is only mills who have their supply of ground wood and chemical pulp that can
manufacture news paper at a paying price. Our having to buy all those from the
manufacturers, we cannot make it pay even at the price which is fixed by the market,
the market price.

Q. In your experience is 2ic., the price fixed by the Association, an exorbitant
price, a high price ? — A. I could not manufacture paper at that price, having to buy
all the requirements.

Q. You are aware, are you not, that the ruling prices have been very much higher
in the past years, during the past fifteen years ( — A. Naturally ; ground wood, which
we bought at the time for $18, last year we had to pay as much as $24. Chemical
wood, $35 ; we had to pay as much as $40.

Q. You have had a large experience also in connection with the Colonization
Society, of which you are President ? — A. Yes.

Q. With regard to getting out of this pulp wood i — A. Yes.

Q. How have the conditions changed in tha past few years ? Take it in 1898,
1899, 1900 i — A. We manufactured some paper for newspaper in sheets. Our price
at that time was 3c. and 3jc; we made some for which we charged 4c.

Q. When the price was 3Jc. ? — A. Well, it changed in 1900, when the price of
pulp wood went up in 1900.

Q. And the price went up to 4e. ; that is the price you are getting now ? — A. Yea.

Q. Between 1898 and 1900 ?— A. Yes.

Q. Was that due to the increased price of the raw material ? — A. Yes, I have
a good deal to do with the wood pulp. Well, about every year since, the price of wood
pulp has augmented, particularly in 1899 ; there was a great deal of wood cut in the
shanties and immediately the snow went away and wood could not be got out.

Q. That was due to the lack of water in the spring ?— A. Yes.

Q. It was left in the woods ? — A. Yes, it was a loss to a good many settlers, on
account of such a small quantity of wood being brought up to the mill and the larger
cost to the pulp manufacturer.

Q. As a matter of fact you remember that in the year 1899, there was a drought ;
there was a scarcity of water and that increased the price of the pulp wood ? — A.
Quite naturally.

Q. Did it also make a shortage in the quantity of the wood ? — A. Certainly.
Some of these pulp mills did not get 50 per cent of what they expected, and what
they paid out money for.

Q. They made advances to cut the wood ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did that make a shortage in the quantity of paper that was manufactured ? — •
A. Yes.

Q. These causes would all tend to put up the price to the consumer of paper ? — -
A. Yes.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I33

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. You consider that the price advanced because it did advance as a matter of
fact, from causes altogether apart from the formation of this association, or was
it due to the formation of the association ? — A. Not at all. The association had
nothing to do with bringing up the price of chemicals and everything pertaining to
paper, machinery, felts and wires, and iron and steel, and everything that was used
on our machines went up from 10 per cent to 25 per cent.

Q. Of course we cannot be held for the combine of steel or whatever it is, in the
States ? — A. No, but the price of wire and all these things went up.

Q. Even at the present prices, would you consider it advisable to go back in the
manufacture of news print in rolls ? — A. There are only a few mills in Canada that
can manufacture news paper to-day at the present rates.

Q. They must have the best conditions ? — A. They must have their limits, and
they mvist be able to manufacture their chemical pulp and have the new machines
to make this paper at a paying price. Otherwise they fail ; practically since January,
three or four paper mills have failed. They had not the proper means of getting their
wood pulp.

Q. To secure these mills and hold them would mean a very large investment of
capital ?— A. Yes.

Q. What would be the effect on the trade in Canada of a reduction of the duty ?
— A. It would ruin many paper mills ; would throw out of employment about 5,000
people who are employed in this business.

Q. You speak of failures, the association has not prevented these mills from fail-
ing ? — A. No, since the first of January five mills have gone out of existence. They
could not make a profit at tlie price fixed by the association and the market price.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, E.G., representing the Press Association:

Q. Of course, these failures may have been due to lack of capital or anyone of
numerous causes that might be suggested ? — A. Well, the principal point for me is
that the first material had gone up in price, and they had not the. new machinery to
manufacture the paper.

Q. In your own mind, do you mean you attributed their failure to the causes you
mention ? — A. I do.

Q. Was one of the four or five you had in mind, a company in Toronto, called the
Consolidated Pulp Company ? — A. They were paper merchants, but there were two
mills in Newburg and Napanee.

Q. The Newburg Mills and the Napanee Mills were both merged in that com-
pany ; they had both been sold to the company ? — A. I believe so.

Q. And they were ripe for failure for years ? — A. I don't know.

Q. I think their accounts demonstrate that. With reference to your own manu-
factory, you do not manufacture the news print paper in rolls ? — A. No.

Q. Do you in sheets ? — A. We made some until last year.

Q. Have you ceased manufacturing in sheets at present ? — A. We have.

Q. You have still the machinery, you can resume at any time if you see fit ? — A.
Yes.

Q. But for the ijresent you find more profit, I suppose in other lines of manufac-
ture ? — A. We cannot manufacture in sheets at the market price.

Q. And the reason of that is because you have to purchase your raw material ? —
A. All the raw material.

Q. How many mills are tliere in Canada which manufacture their own ? — A. I
believe there are five or six.

Q. All in this association ? — A. I could not say precisely, but I should say there
are five or six mills.

Q. Let me know what they are — the Eddy Company ? — A. Yes, that is one. The
Laurentide and the Canada Paper Company, the Riordan and the Royal Pulp. Thera
might be some others, but I don't know.

134 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. These are the principal mills which manufacture their own pulp ? — -A. Yes.

Q. And the cost of that to those who don't manufacture it has gone up within the
last two years very much ? — A. Two or three years.

Q. Gone up more in proportion than the cost of news print, I suppose ? — A. I
believe so.

Q. The result of it being that it would only be such self -producing mills that could
manufacture news print to advantage ? — A. With new machinery as they have.

Q. Then, do you deal in news print ; do you sell it, buy and sell it, at your mill ?
— A. The mill does not buy paper.

Q. No, but your business ? — A. I do buy some sometimes.

Q. You buy from the producer and sell again ? — A. Yes, when I have orders.

Q. And do you have your men travelling, soliciting such orders, asking such
orders ?

Witness. — For print paper ?

Counsel. — Yes.

A. No.

Q. Only supply orders which offer themselves to you ? — A. Offers which come to
us, and sometimes the customers we have, if they want it, the clerk will offer the
paper.

Q. Not doing it at a loss ? — A. Oh, no.

Q. And selling at the association price ? — A. We sell at a higher price, because
I have a higher grade. Having a better quality, I get a better price.

Q. I don't know if I understand. Has not the association fixed the price for
each grade, according to its quality ? — A. There are but few want to have a special
quality; few could make it.

Q. Do I understand you right in this way, that you don't deal in news print paper,
the price of which is fixed by the association ? — A. Well, this is not news, not print
paper ; we make some book paper.

Q. I am not speaking of that ? — A. News paper, as a rule, we don't make it.

Q. I was tolcl that you dealt in it, that you sell it and buy it from some other
manufacturer and sell it again ? — A. We do, but we don't make the ordinary news
paper.

Q. I am not asking as to your making it or manufacturing it ? — A. Nor buying
it ; we don't make or buy.

Q. You don't buy or sell ordinary news paper ? — A. No.

Q. The paper that you buy and sell is print paper but of a higher quality ? — A. A
higher quality than the regular news print.

Q. So a higher price than the association fixes ? — A. Yes.

FRANK HOWAED WILSON.

Examined hij Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers Associa-
tion.

Q. You are a member of the firm of J. C. Wilson & Company ? — A. Yes.

Q. Have you been in business sometime yourself ? — A. Personally, twelve years.

Q. Your firm, of course, is established by your father ; he has been in business a
great many years ? — A. Thirty.

Q. Where are your mills ? — A. Lachute.

Q. Are they equipped for the manufacture of news print ? — A. _Yes, they could
make it.

Q. Have you been manufacturing news print ? — A. We make very little of it now.

Q. Did you use to make it ? — A. Yes, we did make more than we do now.

MINVTES OF EVIDENCE 135

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Will you explain the reason for your going out of the manufacture of news
print ? — A. The price is so low that we cannot afford to make it.

Q. In 1900 the association fixed the prices at $2.50 per 100 for carload lots; did
you go back into the manufacture then ? — A. No.

Q. Why ? — A. We figured that was the very lowest it should have gone to in
1899, and we would not make it in 1900 at that figure.

Q. You figured in 1899 when the raw material was lower by 25 per cent or 50 per
cent, that $2.50 was the price it should have been fixed at then ? — A. Yes.

Q. Would this give you a large profit ? — A. Nothing extra.

Q. And you did not go back to the manufacture when this price was fixed ? — A.
No, we manufactured a little but very little of it.

Q. Can you give us an idea of the price you were getting in 1900 ? — A. In 190O
we are getting all the way from 3c. to 3Jc.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association r

Q. When had you gone out, practically gone out of the manufacture of news print?
— A. In either the end of 1898 or the beginning of 1899.

Q. You practically made none during 1899 ? — A. We did make very little of it.

Q. Nothing of any account ? — A. No.

Q. You were not by any means quitting your output but you were directing your
energy into different lines ? — A. We never make any money out of news print. We
had the mills all there ready, but we turned out other grades of paper.

Q. Then you did not entertain the idea of resuming news print in 1900; could
you have done so without expense in the way of changing machinery ? — A. We could
have, yes.

Q. It would not have been any expense to get new machinery at all ; you had all
the machines on hand ? — A. Yes.

Q. You had occupation for them in other lines ? — A. Yes.

Q. And at more remunerative figures ? — A. Well, we thought so.

Q. You don't manufacture your own ground wood ? — A. Yes, sir, we do.

Q. And your own sulphite ? — A. No, sir.

Q. You buy your sulphite ? — A. Yes.

Q. And when did you fiiid the big increase in sulphite ? — A. In the end of 1899,
especially in the first of 1900.

Q. What had you being paying for it in the beginning of 1899 ? — A. It had been
as low as $30.

Q. And up as high as what ?— A. Well, not in 1899 ; we had paid $34 and $35 in
the end of 1899.

Q. Then in the beginning of 1899 it was as low as $30, and it was hoisted in the
spring of 1900 to what ?— A. Up to $42 and $45.

Q. Was there any reason for that increase in price that' you can suggest ? — A,
Well, they gave us a reason; the cost of getting logs out, that it was more expensive
and there was a shortage in the pulp.

Q. That was a reasonable sign of shortage ? — A. Not so much that. The cost of
getting logs out of the river and several other things they gave us as the reason. I
know our own logs cost more to get out in 1900 than 1899. The water dropped. It
took longer time to get them down the streams.

Q. I thought the drought was in 1899 ? — A. It was, but it was also in 1900.

Q. Was not there a greater lack in 1899? — A. Yes, there was a greater lack in
1899.

Q. Any other item of cost of production which would be greater in 1900 than in
1899 ?— A. I don't know.

Q. No other excuse was assigned to you? — A. Not to us.

136

ROYAL COilillSSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBISE

1-2 EDWARD Vll., A. 1902

Q. But under those circumstances, the price became nearly, if not, 50 per cent
more for that commodity in the spring of 1900 than it had been before ? — A. For sul-
phite it had been running from $30 to $33.

Q. In the spring of 1900, the price went up to $40 and $42 ?— A. It went about
35 per cent.

Q. Have you facilities for manufacturing your own sulphite? — A. Xo.

Q. You had to buy that ? — A. Yes.

WILLUM H. ROWLEY.

Examined hy Mr
ciation :

]Yhite, K.C.J representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso-

Q. You are the manager of the E. B. Eddy Company of Ottawa ? — A. No, secretary
treasurer.

Q. Have you any knowledge of the paper business in Canada for a number of
years ? — A. Yes.

Q. And also pulp wood and pulp business ? — A. Yes.

Q. Your company manufactures large quantities of pulp and pulp wood ? — A.
Yes.

Q. What was your experience as to the variation of prices in pulp in 1S99 and
1900, both ground and sulphite ? — A. Oh, there was a* wide range ; I cannot tell you
exactly what it was, but it was a wide range.

Q. The price increased considerably in 1900 over 1899 1 — A. Yes.

Q. Can you assign any cause for that increased price ? — A. Yes.

Q. Take the ground pulp first ? — A. Well, the cost of getting out the wood was
very considerably greater.

Q. That would apply to both ? — A. Yes, wages in the shauty were excessive, men
difficult to get.

Q. Was the wood easy to get at ? — A. No, we had no snow in our part of the
country ; we had no frost rather in the early part of the winter. As a consequence,
the output of logs was very limited up to Christmas. Spruce grows chiefly, that is,
the bulk of the spruce grows chiefly in the swamps, and unless the swamps freeze up,
there is great diflSculty in getting the wood and there is also a great difiiculty in laying
it up. So in that year for the reason that it was a mild winter, a comparatively small
quantity of wood was made before Christmas for the number of men we had employd
at high wages. After Christmas, or in the New Year, we had exceptionally heavy snow
storms, which not only prevented us from laying up the wood — they piled it up in
high tiers — but it prevented our men from getting in and drawing out what was piled
up. Added to that, the snow disappeared very quickly in the spring, and as the swamps
had not been frozen, the water, instead of going as it usually does into the tributaries,
went into the ground and filled up these small swamps, and instead of rushing down as
it usually does, struck a great deal off our profit. When I say ours, I mean the whole
section, including the Ottawa and the Gatineau Valley. I have heard the same con-
ditions prevailed at Hawkesbury on the Rouge. And added to that was the very ex-
cessive price of all material entering into the manufacture. Sulphur was impossible to
get. Without sulphur you cannot make sulphite fibre.

Q. What was the reason for not getting it ? — A. It was contraband of war ; it
could not be had. I think it went to something like seven times its value.

Q. The shortage was occasioned by the war? — A. No, you could not get it. I for-
get what it was now, but it was contraband of war. It was bought up by the manu-
facturers and they could not get it.

Q. Well, then, all these conditions that you have referred to greatly increased the
cost of the pulp to the paper manufacturers? — A. Yes. Then, I suppose one-third of
all the drives on the Ottawa river were stuck that year.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 137

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. The wood had not come out at all?— A. No. We had nearly $60,000 worth of
wood stuck that year.

Q. Now, in your opinion, was the increase in the price of the paper in Canada
which occurred in 1900 due to these conditions, or to the formation of this Association ?
— A. Oh, it was due to the conditions entirely.

Q. Due to the natural conditions? — A. Entirely.

Q. Do you think the price of $2.50 that was fixed in 1900 was a proper and fair
price? — A. No.

Q. Wliat would have been a fair price ?^A. Two and three-quarter cents.

Q. So that 2J would not have given any undue or abnormal profit ? — A. It did not
give us any undue or abnormal profit ; it did not give us a fair profit.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. It was in the spring of 1900, was it, that all these obstacles were thrown in
your way by Providence ?— A. 1898-1899.

Q. Which year was it you were describing the weather conditions as being un-
favourable ?— A. The winter of 1898-1899.

Q. How did the winter of 1899-1900 compare as to frost and snow and the other
conditions ? — A. It was not favourable.

Q. But was it as unfavourable as the previous winter ? — A. Pretty nearly, about
€qual.

Q. You had two hard winters ? — A. Yes, and we have another one now.

Q. Now, just at present ? — A. Yes, we have. I wish to explain that the season,
that this season is nearly as bad as the other one. We have 60,000 logs stuck in there
absolutely abandoned. That was the logs cut this season.

Q. The condition of being stuck is being low water, stranded ? — A. Yes.

Q. They are not lost permanently; they will come back next year ? — A. Yes.

Q. They are for the present season stranded, so they were for two years previous ?
—A. Yes.

Q. What was the first spring that you felt the effect of these weather conditions
■that you have spoken of in such a marked way, the spring of 1399 and 1898 ? — A. The
spring of 1899. .

Q. There was no trouble with the spring of 1898 ? — A. I don't remember. They al-
ways have trouble in the woods.

Q. I thought you were testifying to some cause for the marked rise in the price of
the commodity ? — A. Yes.

Q. If so, something that you always meet with would not account for it ? — A. No.

Q. There was a marked difference, I understand you, in the physical difficulties you
had to contend with, which made itself felt in the spring of 1899, as compared with
previous springs ? — A. Yes.

Q. Then did the price fall at once ? — A. Immediately almost, so far as the pulp
and fibre are concerned.

Q. What was the price you were getting for that commodity in say May of 1898 ?
— A. I could not tell you exactly. I could get you the information, but I don't remem-
ber exactly.

Q. Would you know if I suggested it to you ? — A. I might.

Q. When you say that in May, 1898 — were you able to sell ground wood for $18.00
a ton in May, 1898 ? — A. We never sold any.

Q. Never sold any ? — A. When I say never, we seldom sell any.

Q. Do you sell sulphite ? — A. Yes.

Q. What were you charging for it in the spring ? — A. I could not say.

Q. Would $34 be out of the way ? — A. We never sold it that low.

Q. What is your minimum figure ? — A. Our price is about $40.00 ; it varies
sometimes.

138 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. I want to compare the price after the increase by reason of these conditions
that you referred to, with the prices before. What were you selling at before you felt
these troubles? — A. We did not sell very much fibre.

Q. I am talking of sulphite ? — A. That is the same thing.

Q. You did not sell much, but you sold some ? — A. We used nearly all we made.

Q. What was your selling price prior to the hard spring of 1899 ? — A. It was in
the neighbourhood of $35 or $36.

Q. Then it is your idea that it took that big lift by the spring of 1899 ? — A. Not
exactly in the spring. Spring and summer.

Q. We had Mr. Barber here yesterday who has to buy all his sulphite, and he told
us he was paying $24 per ton for his sulphite in May, 1898, and exactly the same price
in May, 1899 ? — A. Did he tell you what he paid in June or July or August ?

Counsel. — No, but the rise came in contemporaneous with the association.

A. This Association has had nothing to do with it.

Q. Of course it would not have anything to do with these providential conditions ?
— A. It had actually nothing to do with it.

Q. The result of all these things were difficulty in getting out your logs, getting
one-third of them lost by low water, and all these conditions you speak of, that you
were short of your supply in those two seasons ? — A. Yes.

Q. WTiat percentage short from your normal supply ? — A. I really don't know. I
should say 25 per cent to 30 per cent. I am not quite sure. I did not expect to be
asked all these things, or I would have prepared myself to give it to you.

Q. Don't apologize. Do the best you can. Were like conditions applied to other
men in the same lines of business ? — A. I don't know.

Q. I thought you said so — A. No, sir.

Q. You mentioned the Hawkesbury people ? — A. No, sir. I never mentioned
Hawksbury people. What I said was the Rouge.

Q. As a rule the like conditions would apply to all people in that line of business,
in getting out pulp wood from the shanties during that time, &c. ? — A. On the
Ottawa.

Q. And the result of it was that the supply was short ? — A. Yes.

Q. And were other people too ? — A. That is my opinion.

Q. Did you have to buy any yourself ? — A. Lots of it.

Q. From other people whom you found in the same condition ? — A. No, we did
not buy any.

Q. You had it to sell ? — A. We had no pulp.

Q. Do you distinguish between pulp and pulp wood ? — A. I was distinguishing be-
tween pulp and fibre.

Q. What is the difference ? — A. One is worth about twice as much as the other.
One is chemical and the other is mechanical. There are two or three kinds of sulphite,
not comprehensive in one. The proper term would be fibrite. There are two processes.
There is the soda process and the sulphite process.

Q. But there would be none of this expensive sulphur that would be contraband of
war in that soda pulp ? — A. I don't know.

Q. Now, to come back to the point we departed from. The effect of these different
circumstances that you have narrated was that in those last two seasons, without any
reference to association at all, your supply and the supply generally of fibre was short
perhaps 25 per cent to 30 per cent ? — A. I don't know whether other people were short
or not. We were short in our business. I had all I could do to look after my ovra
business in those times.

Q. I thought you were speaking as to the general conditions of the trade. Was I
mistaken in that idea ? — A. I don't think so. But I don't know anything about other
people's business.

Q. I suppose you will answer me on the same lines as you answered Mr. White.
You replied to him as to conditions, which, as I understood you, were common all over

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 139

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

the country during those seasons ? — A. Excuse me, I said these were the conditions
that prevailed at the Ottawa and Gatineau Valley and on the Rouge.

Q. These conditions obtained there, and the result on that section of country was
that you were in the spring of 1899 short 25 per cent to 30 par cent in your usual sup-
ply of material ? — A. Yes, I have told you that.

Q. And the result of it was that people who had it for sale took advantage of the
opportunity to hoist prices ? — A. I don't know. We did not have any for sale.

Q. Some ?— A. Very little.

Q. What you had, you got the market price for ? — A. We got the market price,
and a little over it whenever we could. I tell you for your satisfaction that we have
had $42 net, spot cash for our fibre at the mill. I remember that transaction because
it was a good fat price.

JAMES HARDY.

Examined hy Mr. White, K.G.j representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association :

Q. Certain letters have been referred to as being exchanged between the Inter-
national Company and the Paper Makers' Association. Are vou aware of such letters?
—A. Yes.

Q. Will you produce them ? — A. I will. I will produce them all.

Q. These letters it would seem, I understand, refer to an understanding being
created between the International Paper Company and the paper makers in Canada ?
— A. They asked for a conference.

Q. Did that conference ever take place ? — A. No.

Q. Was there ever any understanding between the Paper Makers' Association and
the International Company of the United States with regard to prices ? — A. No, sir;
positively no.

Cross-examined hy Mr. AyleswortJi, K.G., representing the Press Association:

Q. Was there ever any meeting between any representative of your Association and
any one interested in the International Company that you are aware of ? — -A. Not that
I am aware of.

Q. Never knew of any such thing ? — A. No.

Q. These letters propose a conference, which conference never took place ? — A. No.

Q. And has there been, so far as you are aware, any communication between your
body and the International otherwise than by letter ? — A. Not otherwise that I am
aware of. I would like to explain probably the reason as I understand it. At one time the
Laurentide Company exported out to England, and the same selling agent acted for
the International and the Laurentide in England, and that may be the reason they
referred these letters to the Laurentide Company.

Q. Are you speaking of Mr. Tarte's evidence ? That explanation seems far
fetched ? — A. As far as the Association was concerned, they never had any confer-
ence or anything more than the interchange of these letters.

Q. But you will let us have all the letters on both sides ? — A. Yes.

Q. You might explain to me, as you are in the witness box — I did not quite under-
stand from the minutes — that is, the position of the Laurentide Company with regard
to your Association ? — A. They have never been members in good standing.

Q. They signed the memorandum ? — A. Yes.

Q. But never made the deposit ? — A. Never made the deposit.

Q. So that they have not completed their membership by the deposit ? — A. No.

Q. You don't regard them as bound by your rules, unless they please ? — -A. No.

Q. Are they members of any particular section or of any particular part. — -A. No.

The Commissioner. — They did not attend any meeting ? — A. No, sir.

140 IfOYAL COMMI^SIOX KE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD Vll., A. 1902

EVIDENCE TAE:EN IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK, 16th JULY, 1901.

ARCHIBALD C. SCRIMGEOUR.

Examined hy Mi: White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association

Q. Which company are you connected with ? — A. The Manufacturers' Paper
Company.

Q. Where are your mills ? — A. Well, the Manufacturers' Paper Company have
no mills. They are selling agents for various mills ; operate no mills themselves.

Q. What position do you occupy in the company ? — A. I am assistant to the
general manager.

Q. Have you occupied this position for the past three or four years ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you have occasion to go to Canada during the years 1900 or 1901 in con-
nection with the business of your company ? — A. Not during the year 1900, but during
the year 1901.

Q. Did you see Mr. Tarte, of the firm of Tarte Brothers, publishers of La Patrie
newspaper ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. Can you state to-day the time you were in Montreal ? — A. April 30th, 1901.

Q. State briefly the nature of your business with Mr. Tarte ? — A. I called upon
Mr. Tarte, exi^lained to him that I was in Canada to see if I could interest him in
paper from the States.

Q. News print ? — A. Yes, news print for La Patrie, which he is publishing.

Q. And the CuUivateur, a weekly paper he also publishes ? — A. I don't know about
that, whatever news print he used.

Q. Did you give him any quotations, prices ? — A. Yes, sir ; I quoted him a price
of $1.85 per 100 pounds, free on board cars at mill, net.

Q. Net, without any discount ? — A. Without any discount, net cash, thirty days
from date of shipment.

Q. Would Mr. Tarte take charge of the expense of freight and delivery and duty,
&c. ? — A. I told him what the duty would be.

Q. Did you make any calculation as to what that would cost him laid down at
his office in Montreal ? — A. I made a calculation as to what it would cost him ex cars
Montreal, about $2.4S per 100 pounds.

Q. Was that the price you were getting in the United States ; was that the ruling
price ? — A. That was under the ruling price.

Q. Can you tell what price your firm or your company was obtaining during the
year 1900; take 1899 first of all, 1899, and the year 1900, up to the time you made
the quotation ? — A. Starting with the fall of 1899 and during the year 1900, we were
getting at that time — sales were made at that time for delivery during that time — we
were getting from $3.35 to $3 at the mill.

Q. What discount ; what were the ruling discounts ? — A. Usually 3 per cent,
thirty days from date of shipment.

Q. That was f.o.b. at mill ? — A. It was at mill.

Q. When were the highest prices ruling during that period ? — A. During the
winter of 1899 and, the spring of 1900 as nearly as I can recall now.

Q. Previous to that, say for three or four years, what had been the tendency of the
prices ? — A. Just previous to that, the tendency had been upward, dating back to the
time just before the Spanish war ; before that the tendency had been downward.

MINUTES OP EVIDENCE Ul

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. To what did you attribute the rise in prices during the year 1900 ? — A. The
stoppage of the decline was made by the fact that there was a shortage of pulp here,
which made the mills somewhat more conservative than they had been to accept con-
tracts ahead. That was caused by the outbreak of the war, which caused the increase
in the consumption of paper ; at the same time, there was an increase in the con-
sumption abroad. In consequence of the increased consumption of the paper during
the war, there was more demand than could be manufactured.

Q. There had been an advance in the cost of the raw material ? — A. Also the
breaking out of the war increased the price of sulphur and some of the other materials
used in the manufacture of paper.

Q. Did these prices that you quoted prevail for large consumers of carload lots ?
— A. Carload lots, yes, sir.

Q. Was the price that you have mentioned for carload lots greater than for less
than carload lots and also in sheets ? — A. In the case of less than carload lots, in
the case of sheets, we got the minimum price.

Q. Is your company a member of any combination or association in the United
States ? — A. Our company is absolutely independent of any other.

Q. Are you aware that there are a number of mills, and if so, can you state what
proportion there are of independent mills and companies in the United States manufac-
turing news print ? — A. There are

Q. In a word, Mr. Scrimgeour, is the price of news print controlled by a combina-
tion in the United States ? — A. No, sir, it is not.

Q. It is subject to competition by various manufacturers ? — A. Yes.

Q. And dealers ? — A. Yes.

Q. Mr. Tarte, in his deposition stated that you called on him and gave him this
quotation about the monih of May, nineteen hundred, was he in error in that ? — A.
He was in error.

Q. Did you see him at all in nineteen hundred? — A. No, sir.

Q. Had you any particular object in going to Mr. Tarte, going to Montreal in
connection with this transaction, was it at his invitation or was it at your own sug-
gestion that you went ? — A. It was at the suggestion of Mr. Fullerton, the general
manager of the Manufacturers' Paper Company.

Q. Had you any previous correspondence with Mr. Tarte that you know of ? — A.
None whatever.

Q. You called on him at the suggestion of your company? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you expecting to open up business in Montreal or Canada ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Have you any objection to state the object of your going to Montreal, or was
there any special object ? — A. We had been informed that the Canadian manufac-
turers were discussing the advisability of oilering among themselves a rebate of duty
of six dollars ($6.00) a ton on every ton of paper that was exported from the country.
That would enable them to make lower prices in Great Britain and it would make
competition against us. It was in order to give the Canadian manufacturers to under-
stand, that if they entered into such an agreement, it would be against the interest of
our mills, that we would invade their territory in Canada.

Q. Even at a sacrifice ? — A. Even at a sacrifice. I went there with the idea of
having the knowledge widely spread that I was there and have it come to the ears of the
Canadian manufacturers, so that they would not make the proposed arrangement of
giving the export rebate.

Q. Is your company a large exporter to England ? — A. Yes.

Q. It is one of your large markets ? — A. Yes.

Q. Can you state approximately what amount of paper you export to England an-
nually, or do you follow the exjiort generally apart from your own company. Could
you give us any idea of the exportation of American paper ?

Question withdrawn after discussion.

142 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Cross-examination by Mr. Aylsworth, K.C., representing the Press Associa-
tion :

Q. Your quotation was $1.85 or $1.87 ?— A. $1.85.

Q. Did you make any of $1.87 at any time ? — A. No, sir.

Q. $1.85 you judge would be equivalent to $2.48 ofi the cars in Montreal ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you aware at that time that there was an association in Canada among
the manufacturers ? — A. Aware of no fact, except what I saw in trade papers.

Q. You had seen in trade papers that there was one recently formed ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you know that the price was $2.50 ? — A. We had been informed that

Q. Was that any factor with you in making your quotation ? — A. Yes.

Q. You designed a quotation which would be practically equivalent or a few
cents under ? — A. Yes.

Q. I did not understand you that a sale at these figures would have been any
loss ? — A. No, sir. It would have been a loss in the sense that we might have got
more money here for the same paper.

Q. It would have been a loss in the sense that if you had sold it here, you might
make more out of that quantity of paper, but it would not be a loss in the sense that
what you would receive would be less than the cost of manufacture ? — A. We thought
we would have nothing whatever to do. That would be a matter for the mills to decide.
We act simply as selling agents, not as manufacturers of paper.

Q. You are not the manufacturers ? — A. No, sir.

Q. But you don't make quotations without the authority of the manufacturer,
T presume ? — A. Not without consulting with them, or working in harmony with
them. .

Q. And not without his prior authority ? — A. Yes, we might.

Q. Did you in this instance ? — A. Yes, we did in this instance without prior au-
thority. .

Q. You were making your quotation for what particular mill, or was it any par-
ticular mill ? — A. Without making it for any particular mill.

Q. You are agent for more than one company ? — A. Yes.

Q. How many ? — A. We are agents for three mills and sell part of the product of
half a dozen more, besides which we buy wherever we see fit and sell wherever we see
fit.

Q. When you say mills, do you mean three or probably four ; do you mean more
than one company ? — A. Yes.

Q. How many companies ? — A. Three different companies.

Q. Then, in making this quotation to Mr. Tarte, do I understand you were doing
it without reference to any particular mill ? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you doing it for the paper you had already contracted for, of which your
own company was the owner ? — A. No, sir ; simply that time on our own responsibility.

Q. And trusting it to be ratified by your principals ? — A. Yes.

Q. Are you in a position to say whether, had that contract been made and carried
out, the manufacturer would have sold at a loss as compared with his cost of produc-
tion ? — A. He probably would have made a profit on it.

Q. Had you any particular mill in your mind from which you were going to ship
this paper if the contract had been entered into ? — A. I had several mills in mind.

Q. Any particular one had you? — A. I had three mills in mind, from anyone of
which we might have shipped, depending on the size and width of the roll.

Q. Have you any objection to letting me know the mills or manufacturer? — A. I
prefer not.

Q. Did you make an offer to any other newspaper than Mr. Tarte ? — A. I saw some
of the other newspapers in Montreal, had talks with them but received no encourage-
ment to make any quotation to them.

Q. Did you or did you not make any quotation ? — A. I might possibly have men-
tioned a figure.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 143

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. The same figure? — A. Yes.

Q. To other newspapers ? — A. Yes.

Q. And in fact, you went there prepared to make contracts for any quantity that
the newspaper company desired at that figure ? — A. Hardly that. I went there to sound
them.

Q. Were you not prepared to carry out your quotation? — A. I was prepared to
make contracts with them.

Q. At that figure? — A. Yes.

Q. And to any extent that they desired, within reasonable limits ? — A. Yes, within
reasonable limits.

Q. But did not, in fact, make any contracts? — A. No.

Q. What quality of paper was that ? — A. That was ordinary newspaper.

Q. You have in your mills here more than one quality ? — A. Yes.

Q. How many ? — A. We have what is known as No. 1 and No. 2 news.

Q. Have you a No. 3? — A. Never heard No. 3 mentioned.

Q. But if it were very inferior to No. 2, it might go below? — A. Yes.

Q. But what was this, 1 or 2? — A. This was No. 2.

Q. That is a grade that is used by many of the newspapers in the United States? —
A. Yes.

Q. Would you recognize it if you saw it? — A. Probably.

Q. Look at this copy of yestewiay's Toronto Globe and tell me about where that
would grade in the United States? — A. That would grade as an inferior quality of
No. 2.

Q. It would be below No. 2 ? — A. It would pass as No. 2, but a low grade of No. 2.

Q. Inferior to the quality of paper you were quoting on? — A. Yes.

Q. Look at yesterday evening's Toronto Star and tell me how that would grade? —
A. That would grade as No. 2; about the quality of the paper that we did offer.

Q. Are there better qualities? — A. Yes.

Q. But that is about the quality of paper you were offering at $1.85 ? — A. Yes.

Q. You know the grade of paper the New York Herald uses ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was that about the grade you were offering? — A. No, that is a better grade.

Q. Than you were offering? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you have samples with you of the grade you were offering at this figure? —
A. I am not sure whether I had samples with me or not. I did. I know I did, now.

Q. Did you exhibit those samples ? — A. Yes, sir, I did.

Q. And any practical paper man would know that what you were offering was a
more expensive grade of paper than the grades I have shown you to-day ?^A. No.
More expensive than the Globe, and practically the same quality as the Star.

Q. Did you, on the same occasion, the same trip, go to Toronto ? — -A. Yes.

Q. You made similar quotations there ? — A. Made a quotation of $1.80 there.

Q. Why lower? — A. On account of the difference in freight rate.

Q. Would $1.80 at your mills mean to the Toronto man practically $2.50 ?— A. It
would mean just a trifle under $2.50, ex cars.

Q. There would be five cents difference in freight in favour of Montreal ? — A. Just
about five cents.

Q. And it was the same grades of paper you were exhibiting in Toronto, quoting
■there to the different newspapers ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was in April of this year ? — A. I was in Toronto on May 1st.

Q. Of this year ?— A. Yes.

Q. In Montreal on April 30th ?— A. Yes.

Q. Was that the first occasion on which you had made any quotations in Toronto
or Montreal ? — A. Yes, sir; well, we have sold paper in Toronto in years gone by in
-small quantities. That is the first time in the last few years we made quotations there.

Q. Did you state to any of these newspaper people in Montreal or Toronto on that
occasion, what that quality of paper would sell at in the United States market, that
•quality you were offering at $1.85 ? — A. I do not recollect that I did.

144 h'OYAL COMMISSIOX HE ALLEGED PAPER COMBiy'E

1-2 tL...^.AL) VII-., A. 1902

Q. What price, in fact, would that grade of paper command at that time in your
market ?— A. About 2ic.

Q. What diiierence in price would you say would reasonably be made between that
grade of paper and the grade of the Globe that I just showed you ; supposing you had
the two quantities, what difference in quotations could be reasonably made ? — A. The
quality of the Globe would hardly sell in this country at all for newspaper purposes.

Q. It is too inferior ? — A. Yes,

Q. Suppose you did find a customer willing to take it, what could you say you
would offer to sell that at; how much under the other grades, such as you were quoting?
— A. Probably 5c. a hundred.

Q. Why is it inferior; what is about it that makes it inferior? — A. It is rough
and coarse,

Q. Look at the two papers and tell me what is the practical difference between the
two. I thought they were identical ? — A. The Globe paper has no finish. The pulp
stands up on the surface.

Q, It covers the difference that you notice ? — A. That is the particular difference;
it is a coarse paper in comparison with the other,

Q, Inferior quality ? — A, Yes,

Q. Would there be more than 5c. difference between the two grades ? — A. I don't
think so.

Q. How much would you say would be the difference in jirice between the paper of
the New York Herald and the Globe ? — A. These papers are not in the same class at
aU.

Q. Give me a price to equal the difference in the quality of the paper ? — A. The
New York Herald is worth about Jc, a pound more than the other.

Q. This paper is $2.20 ?— A. The other would be $2.32J.

Q. I do not understand — probably because I do not understand the trade — ^but you
told me the Globe is a low grade No. 2 ; where do you rank the Herald ? — A. The Herald
is No. 1.

Q. And only 12jc. per 100 difference ? — A. That is practically all,

Q. What is the difference between No. 1 and a good grade of No, 2 ? — A. I am
telling you between the Herald and the Star. I am making comparison now between
the regular No, 2 and this, and that would make perhaps 5c. a hundred more ; that
would be 17jc,

Q. The Herald you would say $2,324, and the other $2,15 ?— A, Yes,

Q. At that time, in the end of April and the first of May last, was news print
selling iu this country at 2 cents ? — A. There had been some contracts made at that
price.

Q, That might fairly be said to be the market price, for some goods ? — A. Below
the market price.

Q. It was rather below, but there were contracts made at that ?^A. There were
some for the largest consumers.

Q. At the mill or at the newspaper office ? — A. At the newspaper office,

Q, How about waste, was waste returned to the mill ? — A, No, sir, it was not
returned at any time,

Q. It was a loss to the consumer ? — A, It was returned at 7o cents a hundred ;
it is worth that to the mill as paper stock.

Q. Overweight ? — A. No, sir.

Q. No advantages to the consumer on the 2c. contract ? — A. No, sir; it was a 2c
net price.

Q. Discount for cash ? — A. No, sir, no discount,

Q. What grade would that be ?— A, That would be No. 2 grade.

Q. At least equal to the Star and superior to the Globe ? — A. Yes.

Q. Worth 12ic. more than the Globe paper ? — A. Five cents a hundred more than
the Globe paper.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE U5

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. No. 1 is ITjc. ? — A. No. 1, yes.

Q. What was it that you say sent you to Canada, some fear ? — A. We understood
there was a proposed arrangement between the Canadian mills to give an export rebate
of $6 a ton.

Q. For export anywhere out of Canada ? — A. Yes.

Q. How did you get wind of that ? — A. Through the reports in the trade papers.

Q. Who, as you understood it, was going to give the six dollars, the manufacturer
in Canada ? — A. The manufacturer in Canada, yes, sir.

Q. Your present duty in this country is, I suppose, practically prohibitive from
Canada ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is your duty ? — A. I really don't know what the duty is.

Q. Ours is 25 per cent ? — A. I know yours is 25 per cent, but what it is coming in
here I don't know.

Q. Well, did you ever hear anything more of that suggestion of export rebate, or
was your inroad the end of it ? — A. I never heard anything more of it.

Q. Did you intimate to the Association or to any Canadian manufacturer that
you were going into the country to make the prices ? — A. No, sir.

Q. You just left that to be circulated by themselves ? — A. I hoped that the pub-
lishers would do that better.

Q. Did you make any contract, in fact ? — A. I made no contract and no sales.

Q. Well, I understood you to say this morning that the price here was $2.35 and
$3. Just explain how that is. Did I understand you correctly; did you tell Mr.
White this morning that the price at this time was $2.35? — A. No, that was during
1899 and 1900.

Q. What had lowered the price; was there any lessening in the cost of production?
A. Lessening in the cost of production.

Q. In what respect? — A. Sulphur was cheaper and other materials had gone down.

Q. Had there been any corresponding lessening in the cost of production to make
a great difference in price ? — A. It was due to that cause, and also to the cause that
there was not the same demand for the paper.

Q. I suppose new mills came into existence ; there was more competition ? — A.
New mills came in, so that the great demand was being taken care of by the various
mills.

Q. Supply was approximately equal to demand ? — A. Yes.

Q. At the time of the high prices that you mentioned, demand was in excess of
supply ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. About what is the daily output of paper in the United States, can you tell us,
of news print? — A. It is approximately in the neighbourhood of 2,500 or 2,700 tons a
day.

Q. As large as that, do you think, at present ? — A. Yes, sir.

(^ What portion of that would be due to the International? — A. They make about
1,500 tons a day.

Q. How long since the output for the whole country h&s exceeded 2,003 tons a day;
a year ago, was it as much as 2,000 tons, would you say? — A. Yes, I should say it has
been in excess of that for the last five years.

Q. You have had some large new mills go into operation within the last twelve
months? — A. Yes, one.

Q. Which one is that? — A. The Great Northern.

Q. Is that the only large one ? — A. Yes.

Q. What output is there from that mill, daily ? — A. About 200 tons.

Q. What prices ruled with you, say in February, 190O, February of last year, for
your No. 2? — A. About 2| cents.

Q. Where was that, at tlie mill or at the office ? — A. It was delivered.

Q. Delivered at the newspaper oflice? — A. Yes.

5.3—10

146 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Any discount or any advantages as to returned waste? — A. There might be 3
per cent for cash and no privilege for waste except 75 cents if returned on board the
point of consumption.

Q. How long has that price ruled in No. 2 print ? — A. That had ruled from shortly
after the breaking out of the war with Spain.

Q. That would be how long before February, 1900, that was in 1898? — A. The
active demand began in 1898. In the fall of the same year.

Q. Of 1898 or 1899?— A. 1S98.

Q. Then during 1898, had the prices at this figure ruled? — A. Tes.

Q. What month in the fall of 1898 ? — A. I could not say without looking up. The
demand began early in the summer, the active demand, and at that time there was a
shortage of pulp wood which caused the mills to stop taking contracts, to be very con-
servative as to the prices they made.

Q. Are you quoting 1898 or 1899 as to the rise in price ? — A. I am not quite sure
as to the time the war broke out; I think it was 1898.

Q. But, at any rate, contemporaneous with the breaking out of the Spanish war,
there was a greater increase in the price of paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. Due, as you say, to the increased demand, coupled with the limited supply? —
A. And also the increase in the cost of manufacture.

Q. Increase of sulphite? — A. Increase in cost of various articles to manufacture.

Q. What other articles besides chemicals? — A. Increase in the cost of wire, and,
as I have already explained, there was a limited supply of pulp wood, which caused it
to go up.

Q. There was no increase in the cost of getting out the pulp ? — A. Perhaps no in-
crease in the cost of manufacturing, but in getting it out, getting out wood, yes.

Q. There was no increase in cost of getting it to market ? — A. It cost more for the
wood, for the simple reason that there was not enough wood to go around, a scarcity
of wood, consequently higher prices could be obtained for it.

Q. There were scarcity prices, and the dealer took advantage of the scarcity and
put up the price, but it did not cost him any more ? — A. I don't know anything about
that.

Q. Do you know when the International Company was formed ? — A. I think it was
January, 1897.

Q. I think you are in error; if my information is correct, they incorporated, I am.
told, on the 31st January, 1898 ?— A. 17th January, 1898.

Q. I am told articles were filed in New York State on the 31st January, but it
does not signify as to a couple of weeks. January, 1898 ? — A. Yes.

Q. And at that time that company controlled on its formation, at any rate, three-
•quarters of the output at least of the United States ? — A. It controlled three-quarters of
the output of the mills east of the Mississippi.

Re-examined by Mr. White, K.C., representing the Manufacturers' Association :

Q. Just to make it clear, when you went to Canada last April and May, were you
seeking the Canadian market, or was it to protect your export market ? — A. It was to
protect our export uaarket. I went there with the expectation of making no sales.

Q. Did you give any quotations in writing to them ? — A. None.

Q. Had you any requests for quotations in' writing ? — A. No, we had none. I
beg your pardon. I did have one request to place my quotations in writing, which
came from Mr. Atkinson. He asked me to write him.

Q. Did you do it ? — A. I did not.

Q. Getting too serious, was it ? — A. I thought it was well to let good enough
alone.

Q. You thought your object had been accomplished by making the quotations ? —
A. Yes.

MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE U7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. During the year 1900, was $2.50 a fair price; would that have been a fair price
or a low price in the United States ?— A. During the greater part of 1900 $2.50 would
have been a low price in the United States.

Re-cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Associa-
tion :

Q. Do you mean the court, when your evidence is seen, to understand that you
■were not prepared to make contracts in Canada at the figures you quoted ? — A.. I was
prepared to make contracts in Canada, but at the price I was quoting, I felt sure of
the fact that my quotations would not be accepted, at the price I was quoting.

Q. Had anyone called your bluff, would you supply it ? — A. I would have seen
them and made the contract.

FR.\NK SQUIER.

Examined hi/ Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association :

Q. What is the name of your firm ? — A. Perkins, Goodwin and Company.

Q. Of New York City?— A. Yes.

Q. Are you manufacturers or dealers ? — A. We are dealers.

Q. You have been in the business a number of years? — -A. Yes.

Q. Is your business extensive? — A. Sometimes we think it is.

Q. Were you handling that news print during the years 1899 and 1900? — A. Yes.

Q. To a large extent? — A. Yes.

Q. What were the ruling prices, or could you cite the contracts ? — A. I guess I
better refer to my book and cite the contracts as we had them. This is our contract
book (producing book) and I can give you prices during the years 1899 and 1900,
actually taken.

Q. Actual contracts made ? — A. Yes.

Q. These prices will be for news print in carload lots and over? — A. By carload
lots, and tonnage. We generally take the contracts by the ton delivered in New York
City; most of our business is in New York delivery, city deliveries.

Here is a contract for 200 tons, taken the month of December, 1899. We took
that at $2.30; 2 per cent oS cash.

Q. Two per cent off, 30 days ? — A. Yes. That was in December, 1S99. That is
the beginning of some trouble we had afterwards in prices. Would you like prices of
1900 ?

Counsel. — Yes, 1900 ; you have given us the prices in 1899 as $2.30 in 200 ton lots.
We would like something indicating the tendency of prices during the year 1900,
■whether the price was rising or falling? — A. Well, the prices- were rising that year.
Now, we have an order that was taken in August, 1900.

Q. What quantity of paper? A. We have an order of 1,000 tons, we took in August
29th, 1900, 24 cents.

Q. The same discount ? — A. No, sir. that was for four months time on that. It is
equivalent to 2 per cent discount. Now, I have an order here we took in February,
1901. That was $2.40. That was a net price, but it covered a little time, not much,
however, thirty days.

Q. Perhaps you can give us the highest and lowest prices you had in 1900?- — ^A.
Well, I don't know as I could give you it quite as broad as that. This book does not
run as far as I supposed it did. I should have brought its predecessor.

We had an order in January, 1900, at $2.25, net cash, and also some of $2.65.
53—104

148 ROYAL COMMISSIOy HE ALLEGED PAPER COilBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. ^Vhat is the quantity? — A. That is 250 tons and 125 tons. It is 250 tons at
$2.25 and $2.65.

Q. $2.65 net for what quantity ? — A. It was an order for 250 tons, and the price
is divided; the first 250 tons at $2.55 and the second at'$2.65. Then, in January, same
following, the same parties, having 250 tons at $2.75 net. Then in February, right
following again 2| cents net cash.

Q. What was the quantity there? — A. 200 tons. We had an order on February
28th, from the same parties for delivery in April. That was $2.65 net.
• Q. 200 tons ako ?— A. They used 376,000 pounds,— 188 tons. That was. $2.65 for
April delivery, bought in February. On January 27th we took an order of 700 tons of
news at $2.65,— that is, 1900.

Q. Is that net ? — A. That was net, on four months time.

February 7th, 1900, we had an order of 100 rolls; that would bs perhaps 25 cr 35
tons. That was a little bit under weight. The price of that was Sjc. cash, ten days.
That is net, but that price was a little under weight, and I got an extra price for that.

ilarch 20th, 1900, we closed a contract for one years supply, amounting to 25 tons
a month; that would be 300 tons. That is at 3e. net, 30 days.

Q. These prices that you have quoted, Mr. Squier, were they the market prices ? —
A. They were the market prices at the time. They came in under competition made at
that time, but we did not get all the orders by any manner of means, but that was what
we took, and where there was good healthy competition.

Q. These figures that you have given us so far, running from ^November, 1899, to-
February, 1901, are all, with the exception of two, above $2.50 ? — A. Yes.

Q. So that you can say that the ruling price during 1900 was a fair running price
of $2.50 ? — ^A. Yes, and over.

Here is an order, a contract for a year's supply made on December 27th, 1900.
That is about 20 tons a month. That price is 2ic., 1 per cent off, ten days. There
are some more prices here.

Q. Is it a fact, Mr. Squier, that the price before 1S99 had been somewhat lower
than tlie price you have given us, in 1897 and 189S? — A. Yes, sir, a good deal lower
prices in 1898.

Q. How do you explain that advance in price ? — A. On account of the combina-
tion of the mills of the International Paper Company and local reasons; prices advanced
in some materials and the Spanish war, which made a great demand for paper.

Q. The organization of the business in the States was one cause and the increased
consumption and increased cost of material ? — A. Yes, owing to the war; the war also
gave us an increased cost of material.

Q. When you speak of the organization of the International Paper Company, are
there mills outside of that company ? — A. Oh, yes, a good many.

Q. A large number? — A. Yes, there are now; there was not at that time. Most
all the large mills were included in it. There were some, however, left out.

Q. At the time of these quotations you have given us was there any association
including all the mills that fixed minimum prices ? Do you know of any association
that covered all the mills, or any agreement amongst the manufacturers of paper in
the United States to make a minimum price ? — A. I do not, further than the Inter-
national ; that was an incorporation.

Q. What portion of the output did they control ? — A. I presume they have about
one-half ; that is, of the whole States.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association .-|

Q. How long since you were told, Mr. Squier. that you would be desired to give '
evidence in this matter ? — A. It might be forty-eight hours. I don't think it is more-;J
than that.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 1 49

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. And you have been looking up these quotations that you have given us? — A.

1 only looked thenr up in this room.

Q. Had you been looking them up before you came into this room to-day ? — A.
Yes, sir, I looked through the book.

Q. Did you look for low quotations? — A. I did not, no.

Q. You cannot find any ; you have not given us a low one at all ? — A. I have given
you the fair average of the quotations in 1900.

Q. Y'^ou would not object to my looking over the book? — A. You can look through
it with me; you could not tell from my book without interpretation.

Q. Y"ou be my interpreter; kindly give me, if you will be so good, any low quota-
tions you have during that time, February and January ? — A. In 1899 I have not been
giving you quotations in 1S99

Q. The first one you gave us was Derember, 1899, 200 tons at $2.30, was
that the lowest figure you saw in December anywhere ? — A. I think so ; yes, sir,
there is one at $2.30 and one at $2.25. One was 200 and one was 100 tons ; 200 tons
at $2.30 and 100 tons at $2.25.

Q. What grade would that be, ISTo. 2 ? — A. I should not grade it as No. 2 myself,
but as Mr. Scrimgeour has established that grade, it could come under the head of No.

2 grade.

Q. It would not be No. 1 ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Was it in rolls? — A. Those were sheets, partly rolls and partly sheets.

Q. The sheets are more expensive? — A. No.

Q. Don't you get higher prices for your paper in sheets ? — A. No, the weight is
generally better; they make paper fixed on the machines.

Q. Is it a fact that the prices run higher where the paper is in sheets than in rolls ?
A. No, it is by the pound anyway.

Q. It gives a little more by cutting them into sheets and reams, but it is pressed
by putting them into rolls ? — A. Yes.

Q. Had the prices taken this upward leap that you speak of at this time, in Decem-
ber, 1899 ; you spoke of a great advance about contemporaneous with the war ? — A.
The advance was then going on.

Q. It had begun before that? — A. Y'es.

Q. When would you say it had fairly begun ? — A. I should judge it was in the
autumn it commenced, just after the war; that was in the fall of 1898.

Q. And had been going on, gradually increasing during the twelve months of
1899?— A. Yes.

Q. So that in December it had reached these figures you mentioned? — A. Yes.

Q. Then, do I understand you, Mr. Squier, that these figures you have given us
here to-day are fair, average sami:)les of your book? — A. I consider them so.

Q. Not picking out high prices at all? — A. There may be a little variation; some-
times the question of competition comes in ; it might vary the price a little.

Q. Did you select them before you came into the room to-day? — A. No, sir, just
looking through the book.

Q. So there would be no object served by your looking there now, by looking for
lower; you might find some with a few cents variation, but nothing substantially dif-
ferent ? — A. No.

Q. Then these were quotations of sales, prices at which the consumers placed
the business ? — A. Delivered in New York to city newspapers and publishers.

Q. And of what we should call, in Mr. Scrimgeour's grading, would be No. 2 news
print? — A. Yes.

Q. You are not a manufacturer at all? — A. No, sir.

Q. Y'^ou are paid your remuneration by commission on your sales and by the price
you make? — A. I generally reckon on a profit. If we had a profit we figure on a com-
mission.

150 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. You know prices are to you what your prices are to the consumer j — A. We
have, most all the time, standard prices on certain manufactures. Take, for instance,
the International. They have standard prices v-ith us and on that we know the basis
of our price. If it is necessary for us to shade the price or go to a lower price, we
would have to consult them.

Q. They being the largest manufacturers you have? — A. Tes.

Q. You do not find any other mill, I suppose, in selling them, competing with
them ? — A. No, we cannot fijid them ; we are looking for them.

Q. At the time they were organized or incorporated, they controlled three-quarters
of the output east of the Mississippi? — A. I think they must have at that time.

Q. But it has come down now, with new enterprise in the field, to possibly one-half
of the whole of the United States ? — A. Possibly, I think.

Q. How much would you say, what portion they control east of the Mississippi to-
day?— A. There is not very much paper made west of the Mississippi.

Q. Is there not considerable on the Pacific slope? — A. There are only a few mills
there ; it does not cut much of a figure.

Q. That does not come into competition with your eastern mills at all; the freight
would be practically prohibitive? — A. Yes.

Q. And here in New York, how far west do you go for your supply, do. you go west
of the Alleghanies at all? — A. No, it is practically all New England.

Q. Of what portion of supply, what portion is the International ? — A. I think, at
the time you are speaking of, it was 75 per cent or 80 per cent; to-day they do not con-
trol so much or so large a per cent.

Q. To-day about 65 per cent to 70 per ceut? — A. I should think so.

Q. The latest quotation you gave us, I think, is in February of this year; you made
a number of contracts, I think you said, for $2.40 at thirty days' time. Then, there
has been some falling off since that, has there not ? — A. Yes, sir, I think there has.

Q. Down to what would it be in May of this year; could you see from your book?
— A. I do not know as I could see from this book or not.

Q. Well, then, speak from memory, if you can be at all sure. Can you tell me
about what your ruling figure was in May ? — A. I should say it was about 2jc.

Q. What was the decline due to? — A. Competition, increased supply.

Q. As compared with the lessening demand, or was there any lessening demand? — •
A. New fellows coming in and selling paper, and trying to make place for themselves.

Q. Trying to crowd in and get a slice of the pie? — A. Yes, trying to get a piece.

Q. Was there any decreased demand during the last six months ? — A. Yes, I think
there had been a let-up in the demand very perceptible.

Q. Was there anything marked in that respect; had there been anything marked
in that respect in the last two months ? — A. In the decreased demand?

Counsel : Yes. — A. I think there has ; yes, sir.

Q. That affected the price with you to quite a noticeable extent? — A. Well, this
affected the prices somewhat.

Q. Compare the prices, say on the 1st of June with the 1st of May last, and tell
me what difference there was with you? — A. The 1st of this last May?

Counsel : Yes. — A. I don't think there is much perceptible difference.

Q. Any perceptible difference between the 1st of May last and the present time ?
— A. This May of 1901 and the present time ?

Counsel : Yes. — A. No perceptible difference; there is a weakness, but when it
gets down to dollars and cents, or pounds, shillings and pence, as probably I sliould say,
before a Royal Commission, that is a question.

Q. You could not put it in pounds, shillings and pence? — A. I could.

Q. There has been a weakness in the market, but no perceptible decline of price?
Since when? — A. The price for the past year has been a heavy price, that is, it is gra-
dually settling all the while, and while you may not be able to distinguish month by
month you go back, there has been a reduction, a gradual falling off.

illNVTES OF ETIDEXCE I5I

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Would there be anything noticeable, say, within the last six months ? Take the
prices to-day and compare them with the prices of the middle of January, pound for
pound, or ton for ton, is there anything marked? — A. I think there would be some
difference.

Q. Vv'hat difference would you put on it ? — A. I would have to study that up a little
bit.

Q. Cannot you give us that from the book ? I should be glad if you could give us
between the middle of January and the middle of July, what difference there is in
price ? — A. I should judge, between the 1st of January and the present time, there
had been a decline of about 15 per cent on the price of paper ; that is, the paper that
would sell 2Jc. would probably sell 2^0. now, to the same parties making the contract.

Q. Under the same conditions? — A. Yes, the same people.

Q. Is that due at all to any diminished cost of production that you know of ? — A.
Well, there has been some diminished cost of production in the price of pulp.

Q. Has there been any reduction in the price of pulp ? — A. I cannot tell you that.

Q. But you think there has been some less cost of production ? — A. Yes, but I
think the main cause of the decline has been supply and demand.

Q. Has been increased supply and decline in demand ? — A. Yes, a preceptible in-
crease in supply.

Re-examined by Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association :

Q. When you speak of the percentage of output of the International Company, do
you speak from any accurate knowledge, or simply from general knowledge of the
business ? — A. General knowledge of the business.

Q. It might vary 20 per cent? — A. I am giving you on that the ideas I had as to
what they made, what they had been selling, and the product.

Q. But you did not speak from any accurate knowledge ? — A. Not at all. I do
not think any one, unless he has the inside track, has any accurate knowledge on that.

lie-cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesivorth, K.C., representing Press Association:

Q. Do you supply any daily papers ? — A. Yes.

Q. You do supply, I suppose, allcomers, who are willing to make contracts ? — A,
We supply any fellow that will buy paper.

Q. As long as he has the money iu his pocket ? — A. Yes.

By Mr. White, K.C. :
Q. That is the experience of most of the manufacturers of paper ? — A. Yes.

ARCHIBALD C. SCRIMGEOUE.

Re-called and examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C, representing the Press Asso-
ciation :

Q. Was it your own idea or was it at the suggestion of any manufacturer that
you should convert Canada into the beautiful country that you did ? — A. That was at
the suggestion of our general manager, Mr. Fullarton, of the Manufacturers' Paper
Company.

Q. And it was made without reference to any particular manufacturer suggesting
it? — A. I do not think he had a talk with any one else regarding it.

Q. It would seem to be more in the interest of the manufacturer than the dealer,
but perhaps you identified their interests ? — A. I identified the interests all the way
through in that.

152 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIKE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A 1902

John H. Duffy^

Examined hi/ Mr. White, E.C. representing the Paper Manufacturers'
Association :

Q. You are a member of the firm of Perkins, Goodwin and Company? — A. Yes,
sir.

Q. Of which Mr. Squier is also a partner? — A. Yes.

Q. Have you been connected with the paper trade for some years? — A. About
thirty years.

Q. During that time you have followed the prices, &c. ? — A. Yes.

Q. Have you particularly to do with the sales or with the purchases, or what is your
Ijarticular branch? — A. Both, I make all purchases.

Q. And you are familiar with the prices at which paper is being sold? — A. Yes,
1 buy all the paper we sell.

Q. Can you give us au average of the ruling price, market price of news print,
what is known in Canada as No. 3 news, in rolls, carload lots, during the years 1S99
and 1900, and 1901 up to date? — A. I am not quite certain as to what the price was in

1899, unless that is the year that it commenced to jump up.

Q. Well, I understand the price of paper, owing to the Cuban war and other con-
ditions, rose about the end of 1898? — A. I heard it mentioned in 1898, and I thought
that was a mistake. I understood it to be in 1899, the fall of 1899, not even the sum-
mer, but I should say book paper jumped, took a jump towards the summer, and I think
news did not commence any advance until the fall, September, around there.

Q. Of 1899 ? — A. Yes, that is my recollection.

Q. Do you recollect what was the ruling price in the fall of 1899 ? — A. Well, it
went up gradually it seems to me. I think that the price really did not get high until

1900, the spring, or late winter, say around in February or March, as I recall it.

Q. What would have been your news price fi:sed at, $2.50 per 100 lbs., 3 per cent
discount, 3 months? — A. We did not make discounts; we are a commission concern,
practically commission concern. Of course I think that is probably a mistake. We
are commission only in the one sense. We are not commission any more in news paper.
Before the formation of the International Paper Company, we had some commission
accounts; since that time, we have to buy as other people do, so that I would not say
we are a commission concern, so that we have to buy ovir news.

Q. During 1900, what was the average price in the States, above or below $2.50 ? —
A. Well, we paid more than $2.50. Our average was about $2.50.

Q. As purchasers then you had to sell and make a profit afterwards? — A. We had
to sell above that, of course.

Q. That was the price at which you bought from the mills that you speak of? — A.
A. Yes.

Q. Were you purchasers on a large scale ? — A. Well, we buy about, I should say,
about $2,500,000 worth per annum of news print.

Q. Can you give us some idea of the maximum market prices during 1900? — A.
Yes, the maximum was $3.20, say $3.20 to $3.25.

Q. Assuming that it had been possible to fix a minimum price amongst all the
manufacturers in the United States in the year 1900, would you have considered $2.50
per 100 pounds as an excessive price for a minimum, delivered, with 3 per cent 30
days? — A. For the whole year, taking the entire year, I should say that I should think
that 2J would have been low.

Q. When you speak of the price as being a net price without any discounts, do
you give your customers any advantages in the way of returning waste, allowance for

.l/LVrr/vN OF ICVIDEXCE !.-).•{

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

extrti weights, advertising contracts, &c., to induce them to buy? — A. Xo, that has been
abandoned absolutely, nobody asks for it any more.

Q. So that price you mention would be a net price on a cash basis? — A. No, not
necessarily on a cash basis, but net. We have a trade that will not pay cash in 30 and
60, and some of them even in 90 days. They are good ; they buy on three and some
of them on four months. But when I say I, personally, never sell goods with a cash
discount — as a rule, we cannot get it — I claim that being jobbers, we cannot afford
to i^ive a discount. We will make a price that will be equivalent, rather than have a
cash discount appear, and that is not only my personal method, but it is my advice to
our salesmen to offer no cash discounts.

Q. Xow, during the present year of 1901 have the prices fallen again ? — A. Ma-
terially.

Q. Was the rise in 1900 and the falling off of the price in 1901 attributable to
natural conditions or to the effect of the combination of manufacturers? — A. Natural
conditions, I should say.

Q. Do you know any minimum price fixed by manufacturers in the States, any
association or mills here ? — A. No, I have no personal knowledge of that. I have heard
of a gentlemen's agreement, so-called, but that was done with a view to making people
like ourselves pay a good price. I guess I heard it. — in fact, it was aimed at us more,
in my judgment, than it was at the publisher.

Q. Was this depreciation in the price, did it occur prior to April of this year? Was
there any marked change between January and April ? — Tes, in the outside mills.
By the outside I mean outside of International and Great Northern. These two con-
cerns we buy most of our paper from, and they have tried to hold us up, but we were
able to do a little better on the outside.

Q. So that there is to-day competition in the United States between manufac-
turers which governs prices? — A. Yes, sir, there is good, healthy competition in my
judgment.

Q. And has been during 1900 also ? — A. No, unfortunately outsiders were so full
then of business, that it was not noticeable.

Q. Do you find that the price has affected your purchases ? In orders to mills, for
instance — if you could give an order suiEcieatly large to keep a machine going during
the year on the same grade of paper rather than on small orders which involve the
changing of machine ? — A. Oh, well, that would result in a concession in price, but
taking care of their machine for a year means a great many hundred tons. Of course,
it depends a good deal on the machine. If they are up to date machines and large,
you can get thirty tons a day out, but there are not many such orders floating around.
But they hardly make any concession of difference in the matter of 500 or 1,000 tons.
If it runs into thousands, of course it is different. But then those orders, of course
we are not, unless we had special pull with the publisher, we are not permitted to
figure on them.

Q. Is it sold direct by the large companies ? — A Yes, sell them probably quite as
low as they would us; in some cases, I believe even lower.

Cross-examined by Mr. Aylesworth , K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. You found a noticeable advance in the prices that were charged to you
in the fall months of 1900, I understand ? — A. Yes, very late. I think quite as late
as October or September, that is when we commenced to feel it.

Q. Was it marked ? — A. Yes, very marked.

Q. About what percentage ? — A. I should say about as much as

Q. What had it been before the rise, and what had it been after ? — A. Well, wa
were purchasing, say. at about $1.75.

Q. Before?— A. Yes.

Q. And after ? — A. After, late in the fall, probably as much as 2c.

154 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. When you had felt its full effect ? — A. jSTo, the full effect, as I recall it, was not
until the spring, early spring.

Q. What did you find then, the ruling price of sale to you ? — A. Then we were
compelled to pay as much as $2.65, I should say, and even higher.

Q. That is an increase of almost 50 per cent ? — A. Almost.

Q. Within six months ? — A. Yes, I should say within six months.

Q. Attributable to any increased cost of production ? — A. I don't think they used
that argument. It was simply a question of paying whatever they asked, without
their giving any excuse for it. You were in great luck if you got it at any price.

Q. The manufacturer simply put up the price to that extent ? — A. Without any
excuse.

Q. Did you ever hear any increased cost of production assigned as a reason for
that increase ? — A. I have.

Q. You have heard it ? — A. Yes.

Q. But in your judgment, apparently you attribute it rather to the increased de-
mand and limited supply ? — A. Well, I have not any judgment on that subject. I am
not a manufacturer and I could not say. They say the price of chemicals went up.

Q. That was the excuse ? — A. Yes, and I believe it was true. Chemicals increased
100 per cent and more, 150 per cent.

Q. Ai-e you sufficiently acquainted with the manufacture to be able to tell me
what figure, what proportion of the cost of manufacture, the cost of chemicals would
be ? — A. I regret to say that I am not.

Q. You could not inform us ? — A. No, I am not familiar with the manufacture
at all. I am more a salesman.

Q. You simply know the fact of the increase, but are not able to assign the cause f
—A. No.

Q. And it had reached its maximum by the spring of 1900 ? — A. The spring,
early summer. I know, for instance, so that I could make it appear to you, I know
that I sold New York dealers paper as high at $2.75 and felt under obligations to
gentlemen who sold me paper, and who made a price of about 10 cents a hundred less,
which enabled me to make a profit of a couple of dollars a ton, which enabled me ta
make it, at that price.

Q. That would be in the spring and early summer ? — A. Yes.

Q. That, you say, was, of course, since the formation of the International ? — A.
Yes.

Q. You felt a very marked difference, apparently, in your ability to secure paper
after the formation, contemporaneously with the formation of the International ? — A.
No, not until the fall of 1899 and in the spring of 1900.

Q. That was the first you felt ? — A. Yes, but that was more than a year, I be-
lieve, after the formation of the International.

Q. They were formed in 189S, we are told. You said — the reason I asked the
question in that form — you said that since the formation of the International you
had to buy like other people ? — A. Yes, so that you can understand that remark, I
wish to explain. Prior to that we were agents and we controlled production. We con-
trolled the entire product, for instance, of Webb's Paper Company, a mill making
twenty-five tons a day on two machines, which was absorbed by the International, and
we had quoters with other mills. By quoters, I mean mills making twenty tons a
day. We had seven, eight, nine or ten days.

Q. What I understood is, the difference you felt in that respect when the Inter-
national was formed ? — A. Well, the cheapest paper that we ever bought, we bought
after the formation of the International Paper Company ; we bought it fi-om the In-
ternational.

Q. You said that prior to the formation of the International, you dealt largely
on commission ? — A. Yes.

Q. After the formation of the International you were unable to do that ? — A. Be-
cause of the absorption of the mills.

MiyVTLS OF EVIDENCE lo5

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. And you had to buy just like other people ? — A. We had to buy just as other
people had.

Q. You felt a marked difference iu that respect in the nature of your dealings
with the manufacturers ? — A. From the change of doing business on a commission
of 5 per cent basis and getting what we could ; sometimes we got 5 per cent and some-
times 3 per cent.

Q. Since the formation of the International, you bought, and sometimes sold at
what advance you could secure? — A. Quite right.

Q. Then how cheap were you able to make any purchases from any source, buying
direct from the manufacturer during the year 1900? — A. We were not able to buy
from outside mills in 1900 much, if any. I mean very little; they all claimed to be
full.

Q. Full of orders? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you found it difficult to purchase at all? — A. Yes.

Q. Were you dealing mostly with the International? — A. Yes. We had a reputa-
tion of being obligated in a measure to buy from the International.

Q. Well, what was the lowest price you were able to secure ? — A. I think, if my
memory serves me, the best we did in 1900, unless it was done very early, say, in Janu-
ary, I think the best we did was somewhere around $2.60 net.

Q. Well, you gave me $2.50 as the average. There must have been something be-
low $2.50 ? — A. Well, the average came in later.

Q. During 1900?— A. Yes.

Q. Let me know the lots you were able to buy during the year of 1900 that makes
up this average of $2.50 ? — A. The latter part of last year, we bought as low, I think,
as $2.25 or $2.35.

Q. Nothing below $2.25 ?— A. No, I think not.

Q. Did you buy any considerable quantity at $2.25 during the year 1900 ? — A. We
bought, — I wiU tell you what we did in 1900, now that you refresh me — we bought
about 7,000 or 8,000 tons at, — I suppose there is no reason why I should not tell you
just the price — I should say we bought 7,000 or 8,000 tons at $2.15 f.o.b dock.

Q. Dock, New York ? — A. Yes, and that we bought on the 13th day of December.

Q. That was the lowest price m the twelve months? — A. That was the lowest.
That made the paper cost us, when we carted it and delivered, took care of the pub-
lisher as we had to do, I mean protect him by keeping a surplus on hand, — the Inter-
national would not do anything but put it on the dock and they generally put it on a
dock from which' it had to be removed within twenty-four hours, which necessitated
our paying insurances and other expenses, cartages — at $2.15, and that we did, by giving
very large orders, I should say 7,000 tons. Up to that we did not have anything at 25.
I think we paid 40 or 50.

Q. Is there any reason you can give us for that drop to $2.15 at the end of the
year ?— A. Conditions changed.

Q. From what reason?^ — A. The demand was not so great and they eased up quite
a little. Of course, I cannot say just why, but these were contracts that were expiring
with the year. We hoped to close them and we tried to close them in November.

Q. That is, with your own production, but I am speaking of the motives that
moved the International to lower their price to you? — A. I would not be able to say
what their motives were. I only know we tried to close these expiring contracts of
ours. It is not usual to have a newspaper contract allowed to run up to its limits,
and on the thirtieth day of December closed for the next year. That is business we
have had for years, and the International and no one else can get it, but we tried to
close it in October, and at that time they wanted a great deal more money. I said,
' we will wait and take our chances ' and we did wait and it resulted in our making
that price. What I was about to say is this : we don't buy goods that way usually,
f.o.b. dock, because that is an awiward way to buy things. If the goods were consigned
to the International, or to Brown, Jones or Robertson, they are there and they are theirs.
Until then we bought goods delivered.

156 ROYAL COMMISSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD Vil., A. 1902

Q. Where were these seven or eight manufacturers ? — A. Mostly in the east, mostly
in Maine and New Hampshire.

Q. Delivered hei-e ? — A. Delivered f.o.b. dock.

Q. Then did you find a declining market, gradually from the spring of 1900 to
that time ? — A. In the spring of 1900 I found the advancing market.

Q. But from May or April, 1900, up to this time, at the end of December, had the
price gradually declined, the price of the manufacturers to you, I mean, or was this
drop that came at the end of the year all of a sudden ? — A. Yes, it came rather sudden,
for we were not able to buy, to purchase large quantities. In fact, we did not need
them, so probably I had not better say, — we did not find we could buy them, but took
small quantities. Took 500 or 1,000 tons. We had to pay 2ic. as the lowest up to the
time that I mentioned.

Q. Has the Great Northern supplied you with any paper ? — A. Yes.

Q. When did they begin ? — A. We started in with the Great Northern this year.

Q. In the year 1901?— A. Yes.

Q. Do you know when they began their actual output ? — A. Yes, I think late in
October or early in November last year.

Q. Very large producers ? — A. Yes. They produce 300 tons, I should say, around
there, a day. I notice that Mr. Scrimgeour gave it as 200, but I am familiar with the
facts; I know the facts of the case. I have been to the mill and know what they are
doing. I was there before the mills were started. They have eight machines at the
plant and they turn out between 25 and 30 tons a day, but they have a Madison mill,
they have been turning out 50 tons or more for years.

Q. And they have a large influence on the market price since they started ? — A.
They are so large that we are able to do business with them to the extent of a great
many thousand tons this year.

Q. Did any other large mill start within the last twelve months ? — A. No.

Q. Since the organization of the International, there have been a number of pretty
large concerns that started, so we are told, that is, since January, 1898; there have
been a number of large mills started in the United States, have there not ? — A. I don't
know of them.

Q. Don't you know of any besides the Great Northern ? — A. That are producing
paper, that are manufacturing, that are delivering, I know of none.

Q. E.xcept the Great Northern ? — A. Except the Great Northern.

Q. No western companies ? — A. Well, we do not do any business with western
people. The freight rate is against us.

Q. You cannot do anything practically outside of New York State and New Eng-
land States ? — A. No, the freight is anywhere from 2i per cent to 3 per cent higher.

Q. What would be, in your judgment, the average output, daily output of the mills
in the east, outside of the International ? — A. Well, I have never bothered my head
with that. If the inquiry was made and Mr. Spicer was not present, I woidd suggest
that they send for him ; he is the statistician, and he is the bureau of information.

Q. Give me an idea just, yoiir own judgment ? — A. I would if I could, but really
I have not any idea of anything that would be reliable.

Q. Your jiulgment would not be reliable ? — A. I don't want to tell you something
that I am simply speculating on ; I want to tell you what I know.

Q. The system, you say, of returning waste, allowing the consumer fur his waste,
has been altogether abandoned ? — A. Yes, that is dead and buried.

Q. Since when ? — A. I should say — well when we made contracts. I don't know,
hut what it was early La 1900, possibly late in 1899, we were told that we could not re-
turn any waste except at a figure

Q. Possibly the end of 1899 was the cessation of that system ? — A. I think that
was about the time that that new method was sprung on the publishers.

Q. Is that the new rule ? — A. Yes.

Q. That seemed to be a sort of consensus among manufacturers I — A. Oh, I
suppose — yes, I should judge it was brought about by that ; the other, thing was abused.

MINUTES OF EVIDEXQE I57

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Was that the result of what you spoke of, as a gentlemen's agreement ? — A.
No, the gentlemen's agreement was a different proposition altogether.

Q. Explain that to me ? — A. The gentlemen's agreement, as I understood it, was
that the mills thought it best to select their goods, to select their customers.

Q. And to leave out undesirable customers ? — A. No, but to leave out the jobber.

Q. To do business with the manufacturer and get rid of the middleman ? — A. I
don't know, but I rather suspect that was it.

Q. When did you first hear of the existence of that, apart from the manufacturers,
but as gentlemen together ? — A. Oh, that is quite recently.
- Q. About how long since ? — A. I heard of that early in the year 1901, this year.

Q. Not before 1901 ?— A. Not before.

Q. You never heard of it before January last ? — A. I did not hear of it before.

Q. And only heard it as a matter of rumour ? — A. As a matter of rumour.

Q. And not able to give me any details about it ? — A. No, I was not allowed to
know anything about it.

Q. And, as you understood it, just an understanding among gentlemen, as to the
prices at which they would deal for their commodity ? — A. Yes, and in a measure
eliminate the middleman.

Q. You could not give me any more accurate information about it, more than
that you felt the effect of it in your business i — A. No, not being a party to it. We
felt the effect very seriously for a while.

Q. And first began to notice that in the last six months ? — A. I should say four
or five months. Of course, it is within six months.

Q. You say there has been a noticeable decline in your prices during the present
year ? — A. Yes.

Q. When would that begin to be noticeable ? — A. Well, I should say that you
might go back — well, for instance, the thirtieth of December, when I told you we
made a purchase, a very large purchase of above 6,000 tons at the price which I
named.

Q. That was quite marked at that time ? — A. Yes.

Q. Was that purchase from the International or the (jreat Northern ? — A. In-
ternational.

Q. Was this the first time you noticed the decline ? — .\. Yes, that was' the first.
At the same time, let me say to you, that we could not buy — that was a lump purchase,
we could not buy a few hundred or even a thousand tons at that price at that time ;
that was a large purchase.

Q. And that decline has continued ever since, has it i — A. I don't know. I be-
lieve— well, we can not do much better than that to-day.

Q. But you have not had any rise since then ? — A. No, thtre has been no rise.

Q. The general tendency has been towards a sluggish market, a downward mar-
ket ? — A. Yes, since that time.

Q. You are not able to assign any cause, from the manufacturers' standpoint,
for that marked decline ? — A. As I said before, not being a manufacturer, I could
not assign you what I might consider an intelligent reason.

Q. Is your own mind not able to account for that ? — A. Well. I would not want
to take the responsibility of anything.

Re-examined by Mr. Wliile, K.G., representing the Manufacturers' Associa-
tion :

Q. That minimum price that you have reference to, does that apply to small pur-
chases of 1,000 to 2,000 tons ? — A. Several thousand.

Q. Could you have bought 1,000 to 2,000 tons at that price ?— A. No.

Q. Would this agreement that you have reference to, be disadvantageous to the
consumer, to the newspaper man ? — A. No, on the contrary.

15f< ROYAL COUillSSIOX RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. It was an advantage ? — A. It would be to a large consumer; it was to the
disadvantage of the dealer.

Q. But it did not operate prejudicially to the consumer ? — A. On the contrary.
I want to say just a word in explanation of that price that I named, which is this, that
we had to pay all the expenses of storage, insurance, labour, cartage, &c., which brought
the price considerably above ^c. after the goods were delivered to the publisher. I
thought it best that you should recognize that, because while the price looks low it is
not low, and when you pay all the expenses attending an f.o.b purchase.

Be-cross-exaviined by Mr. Aylesworih , E.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. What would you say of a consumer who would use, say, one thousand tons a
year; would he be in a position to get the advantage of lower prices? — A. A consumer
cannot be too small to be recognized by the manufacturer to-day. If he used one ton
a day they are just as hungry for him, to all appearances, as if he used twenty tons.

Q. Take a paper that uses 1,000 tons a year, would he be able to get the advantage
of such a price as you mentioned, in your market ? — A. The manufacturer would lie
awake at night to get hold of him.

Q. Would a consumer of that size, in your judgment, be able to get the advantage
of that low price that you mentioned from the manufacturer ? — A. Certainly.

Further questions liy Mr. White, K.C.:

Q. How about the consumer whose total consumption, both for news and job, is
about 1,600 tons a year, would he buy paper in ream at anything like this price you
have metioned? — A. It depends from whom he tries to buy. If he went to the Great
Northern, he could not buy at any price, because they don't make sheets. If he went
to the International, they would charge him in the neighbourhood of 2|, but there are
a great many mills will not bother with sheets. That is a very small purchase, 1,600
tons a year.

Q. He could not buy on the same basis as you could buy ? — A. I should hope not.
I would have to be stricken out.

WILLL\M B. DILLOX.

Examined by Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso-
ciation :

Q. Mr. Dillon, you Jiave been connected with tlie manufacture of paper for a num-
ber of years in the United States ? — A. I have.

Q. How is the price to the consumer affected by the fact that he can give a large
order that will keep a. machine going year in and year out on the same grade of paper,
as against a man who wants perhaps two or three thousand tons in a year ? — A. Very
materially lower.

Q. The total consumption of news print in Canada, where there are, as you
know, a number of mills making it, is about 33,000 tons a year, including wall papers,
which are classified as news print. How should prices compare as against orders
which you get in the United States ? — A. Well, what would be the largest order in
Canada, for instance, wh&t would be the constunption of the largest order ? —

Q. About seven tons a day would be the largest run ? — A. Well, that would be about
2,000 tons a year, and the difference in price between the consumer using 2,000 tons
per annum and our largest consumers in this country would be very — well, it would
be on an average — I will omit the word average — it would be from i to i cent a pound
more to the point of delivery to the credit of the buyer.

Q. During the year 1900, certain manufacturers of paper in Canada, not includ-
ing all the manufacturers, entered into an association and they fixed a minimum
price, car-load lots, at $2.50, 3 per cent discount, three months' credit, delivered to the
consumer. From your knowledge of the cost of material and the cost of manufacture,
would you consider that a fair price ? — A. I should, yes, during that year.

MIKUTE8 OF EVIDENCE ^5;,

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. How would it compare with similar conditions in the United States ; would the
price here be above that or below ? — A. Taking- into consideration the fact that your
largest mill used about 2,000 tons, it would have been about on a par in 1900.

Q. Were you engaged in the manufacture of paper, and associated with the manu-
facture of paper at the time of the formation of the International Paper Company ? —
A. I was.

Q. What was the condition of the paper trade in the United States at that time ?
— A. It was in a very deplorable condition in the United States at that time. The
prices were, on an average, below the cost of production.

Q. What was the inducement to the mills which entered into this company, to
become parties to the new corporation, was it a regulation price, a regulation trade,
due to the fact that they were losing money ? — A. Those were the predominant rea-
sons for forming that company.

Q. You say that to-day you are associated with the Great !Jsorthern Paper Com-
pany ? — A. Yes.

Q. You are a large manufacturer of news print, I imderstood ? — A. We are
manufacturing about 275 tons a day.

Q. You have heard the evidence of Mr. Squier and Mr. Duffy, as to the ruling
prices during the years 1899, 1900 and 1901, do you agree with their statements gen-
erally ? — A. I only heard the latter portion of Mr. Duffy's testimony. The only
thing I heard, 7,000 tons purchased at $2.15 — to be added to that were the expenses of
carrying on the business, but as to Mr. Squier's testimony I believe his statements
were correct.

Q. Was that price of $2.15 an exceptionally low price ? — A. It was very low.

Q. What were the conditions which caused the increase in the price of paper
during 1900, the conditions of 1S99 ? — A. It was a combination in the increased cost
of production and increased demand.

Q. Was there a marked increase in the cost of chemicals, &c? — A. There was a
marked increase in the cost of chemicals, clothing machines, iron and steel used in re-
pairing mills — in fact, almost every article entering into the maintenance of the mills
and the articles used in manufacturing.

Q. Even assuming the difference of conditions and the much larger output of paper
in the United States, if it had been possible to organize an association here which
had included all the mills, would you have considered a minimum price of $2.50 an
excessive and undue price during 1900, for carload lots and over.? — A. Of course, it is
a difficult matter to compare your orders and ours. As I stated a few moments ago,
there was a difference of from ^ to J cent a pound, but if you ask me for 2h cents for
carload lots on the basis of the average order placed in this country, I should say it was
not an undue price.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. Would it modify your answer if you were given a consumption of 4,000 tons
per annum instead of 2,000? — A. That would slightly modify it, yes.

Q. That would lessen the price? — A. Slightly, presuming the credit in both cases
■was good.

Q. The same conditions as otherwise? — A. Yes.

Q. I am told that our possible largest consumer, the Montreal Star, takes about
4,000 tons per annum; you would think that such consumer ought to be supplied during
the year 1900 for substantially less than $2.50 under conditions as they exist on your
side of the line? — A. I should say J cent a pound ought to cover that difference.

Q. Such a consumer ought to be able to get it at that much less ? — A. t should say
during the very closing part of 1900, possibly December, 1900, but prior to that date,
in the early part of 1900, I know paper in hundreds of tons was sold for $2.70.

lliil ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBiyE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. That is a small consumer. Thousands of tons, how about that '( — A. If he
bought thousands of tons, he would pay more than $2.70, because this party I am speak-
ing of, they buy one thousand tons and more, but they pay more than $2.70 for it.

Q. That was some consumer in the United States during the early part of 1900 ? —
A. Yes.

Q. That was before your company, the Great Northern, came into operation ? — A.
That is before our company had appeared on the market; the product of their second
mill, which is much the largest mill of the two.

Q. When did your company begin influencing the market? — A. They really began
influencing the market in the early part of 1900, because they expected to put their
product on the market in June that year.

Q. When did they begin to put it on? — A. In the end of October, but they took
orders prior to that, and delivered it in some cases, in different lots.

Q. And you have been having a daily output of 275 tons ? — A. They gradually
worked up to it.

Q. And was the lowering of prices during 190 due to the fact, in your judgment,
of your entering the field, or was it any lessening in the cost of raw material ? — A. I
think it was a combination of these circumstances.

Q. Tou, of course, I presume, manufacture your own sulphite? — A. Yes.

Q. Due to the operation of the laws of demand aud supply ? — A. Entirely.

Q. And has there been any diminution with ypu, or has there been an increase in
the cost to the purchaser of sulphite? — A. Well, I consider there has been a diminu-
tion; we are getting less to-llay and even getting less in 1901 than we were getting in
1900. There has been a diminution in the selling price of our sulphite since October,
1900.

Q. A marked diminution ? — A. Well, yes, it has been.

Q. About what percentage ? — A. Well, in the neighbourhood of — it has varied all
the way from J to Jc. a pound.
-Q. Gradual fall ?— A. Yes.

Q. Due to the operation of the laws of deman aud supply ? — A. Entirely.

Q. Has your company been parties to this understanding so solicitously character-
ized ? — A. We have not been a party to anything ; I did not hear Mr. Duffy's evidence.

Q. You mean your company has not been in any way a party to the understanding
of other manufacturers, but you go on carrying on your business ? — A. I do. We
have always carried on our business, trying to get the best business suited to our style
of machine.

Q. In operating under any understanding with fellow-producers as to prices or
terms of dealing ? — A. I don't exactly understand.

Q. I mean the understanding among gentlemen as to the figure at which you
would sell ? — A. You mean, our competitors, if we would consult with them as to how
much we should ask, and as to whom we should sell to ?

Q. I don't mean that, but has there not been any understanding with your fellow-
producers, the International, &c., not to sell under figures that would realize a reason-
able profit? — A. We have never gone out of our way to antagonize our competitors on
orders that we knew were so well fitted for them that they would not allow us to under-
take them anyhow.

Q. You have never undersold ? — A. We have done so when it was necessary to get
the business.

Q. But as to your general course of business, it has been rather to keep up thau
keep down the price ? — A. We have not been accused of that, and really, coming into
the market, as we did, with a very large production, somewhat suddenly, we have been
compelled to disregard even friendships, in some instances, to take business from peo-
ple that we would prefer not to, so that we are not in very good odour with our rival
producers.

Q. You mean you have been accused, on the other part, of cutting prices ? — A. Yes.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE [61

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. And the effect of your competition has been somewhat to reduce prices? — A. I
think so.

Q. If you had not come into the field, prices would have been maintained at a
higher figure ? — A. That might cut some figure, and the law of demand might have
governed prices. It might have been coincident with our coming in at the beginning
of the Boer war, and that did not call for the demand we formerly had; it may be co-
incident.

Q. At any rate, since you have been producing you felt a rather diminished de-
mand ? — A. There has been a diminished demand since we began manufacturing heavily,
but I would like to state that all the paper makers are familiar with the fact that begin-
ning with the month of May in each year, except in the case of the Spanish war, there
is a diminution in the demand for paper, and it is not looked upon by any of us as a
lessening demand.

Q. You expect it to be higher from October to May than from May to October ? —
A. Absolutely, and I might state this, that in this country there are used some 60,000
tons of hanging paper that is never touched by the market until the early part of Sep-
tember, so that the mills who make it do all their manufacturing in the summer months,
as they are obliged to do to maintain their average prices, but they don't ship it until
the fall months.

Q. Do you find any falling off in the demand for news print ? — A. Yes. In the
news print there is a marked diminution between the months of May and October.

Q. When did you begin your output ? — A. Our output — well, our first mill, known
as the Madison mill, began its output in August, 1899.

Q. Then you were producing during the whole of 1900 ? — A. Yes.

Q. Did you find any noticeable difference in the cost of producing sulphite be-
tween the beginning of 1900 and the end ? — A. Yes, there was an increased cost.

Q. The cost of producing ? — A. Yes, there was an increased cost, and there was
a diminution towards the end of 1900.

Q. Due to what ?— A. Due to the decreased cost of raw material.

Q. What raw material ? — A. Sulphur, I might say. I am only familiar in a gen-
eral way with the cost of production. I could not specify certain articles and state
' whether they cost more or less, but I know they cost less towards the end of 1900.

Q. Does the cost of sulphite, the cost to make a ton of paper, bear any sensible
proportion to the total cost of manufacturing that quantity ?^A. Oh, it would bear a
proportion, but not a large proportion. You are speaking as to the cost of manufac-
turing paper ?

Q. Yes. What proportion of the cost of making papsr would be attributable to
the cost of manufacturing sulphur 'i — A. I don't know. I would not consider it an
important item, but I might add, that all the clothing of the sulphite mill, every other
article that enters into it, almost every one increased in cost during that period.

Q. I do not know whether I should address you as a practical manufacturer ? — A.
Well, you ought not, because I am not.

Q. You are not acquainted with the process ? — A. No.

Q. Are you able to give me any other ingredients which enter into the cost of
manufacturing, that increased in price ? — A. Yes, spruce wood.

Q. That increased between January and December of 1900 ? — A. Yes.

Q. Could you put a figure on it, any per cent ?^A. No, I could not. Of course,
as I say, I am not a practical paper-maker, and I only know our company spent more
money that year per cord than they did previously.

Q. And you cannot tell me to what it is attributable ?^A. No, I cannot.

F. W. SPICER.

Examined hy Mr. White, E.G., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso'
ciation :

Q. You are connected with the International Paper Company ? — A. Yes.
53—11

1G2 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. What position do you occupy there I — A. I ahnost forget the technical defi-
nition— manager of the Export News Division.

Q. Are you familiar with the price at which news print was sold during the years
1899, 1900 and 1901 ^— A. In a general way.

Q. You have been some years connected with the paper manufacturing business ?
— A. I have been for several years connected with the paper industry.

Q. Were you connected with the paper industry before the formation of the Inter-
national ? — A. I was.

Q. Can you state, in a general way, what was the condition of the paper trade
in the United States before the formation of that company i — A. General condition of
over-production.

Q. And the price has been affected by the over-production and competition amongst
individual mills ( — A. Xaturally. That is the usual result of over-production.

Q. Can you tell us what proportion cf the production of news print in the United
States comes from your company ? — A. Not definitely.

Q. Approximately? — A. Well, I read it in our trade papers as being in the neigh-
bourhood of 50 to 60 per cent.

Q. As a matter of fact, are there enough mills outside of the International to
create a healthy competition in the trade ( — A. I should say there are quite enough to
create competition.

Q. There are a number of mills outside of the International and Great Xorthcrn?
—A. There are.

Q. During the years 1899 and 1900, was there any association or agreement amongst
tlie manufacturers of news print in the United States to control the price? — A. Not
that I am aware of.

Q. If there had been such an agreement, you would have known of it, would you
not? — A. Altogether likely.

Q. You have heard. the evidence which has been given to-day as to the prices which
prevailed during this year, do you concur in what has been said? — A. In a general way,
yes.

Q. Would you consider a minimum price during the year 1900 of $2.50 in carload
lots, with 3 per cent discount, as being a fair and reasonable average price? — A. ]
should say it was. I should say it was below the average of business offered during the
year.

Q. During that time, we^-e you doing business in Canada, your company doing
any business in Canada ? — A. We took some orders in Canada.

Q. Would you mind stating at what price these orders were taken ? — A. At better
than 2i cents net, f.o.b. the mill.

Q. Can you give us any actual contract or sale that was made? — A. I could give
you the names of the piu'chasers, and the dates of the sales, but I think the other answer
covers the ground sufficiently.

Q. Did you get as high as $2.80 f.o.b. vessel, Boston, net 30 days ? — A. Well,
as I say we get better than 2J cents f.o.b. mill.

Q. Do you know a company called the Laurentide Pulp Company, operating in
Canada? — A. Oh, yes.

Q. Will you take communication of a letter dated New York, Xoveniber, 1900,
and produced in this inquiry as Exhibit P — 39 and state whether that signature is yours ?
A. The letter is dictated by me; the signature is simply a rubber stamp signature.

Q. But you are the Mr. Spicer who signed that communication? — A. Yes.

Q. Will you explain any of the circumstances under which that letter was written ?
A. The gentleman named in the early part of this letter said to me that he had a friend
in Montreal who was desirous of purchasing some paper and asked me would I com-
municate with him. Prior to writing the letter, the Eddy fire had takv.n place in Otta-
wa, and an offer had been made, — at least, I understand an offer had been made by the
Laurentide people to secure sonae part of the business formerly held by Eddy, and infor-
mally, in talking about their success in securing this business, they named various

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ■ 163

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

publishers with whom they had made arrangements, and after my conversation with
Mr. Bidder, on looking over the list, I fonnd the gentleman of whom he spoke was in the
list, which is the reason for the conununicatiou being of the nature that it is.

Q. Had you any understanding with the Laurentide people to refer all Canadian
inquiries to them ? — A. We had not, that is, to my knowledge.

Q. Then, this letter, P — 39, was not the result of any sucli agreement or under-
standing that I refer to? — A. Not at all.

Q. Simply arose from your having a knowledge that Mr. Tarte had contracted
with the Laurentide before asking you for quotations? — A. Yes, sir, 1 was informed
that they had.

Q. Are the prices which prevail in the United States the result of the ordinary
trade conditions ? — A. They are.

Q. Competition, or is it the result of an agreement amongst the manufacturers ?
^A. Trade conditions.

Q. You had some correspondence, or your firm had, some correspondence, with
the firm of Jenkins and Hardy, of Toronto, wlio were acting as secretary of the Paper
Makers' Association of Canada % — A. We did.

Q. In connection wdth the export business ? — A. Yes.

Q. What was the result of that correspondence ? — A. Nothing ever came of it.

Q. Was any arrangement ever made between your company and the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada ? — A. None whatever.

Q. Did you ever go beyond the tentative correspondence, ever hoLl a meeting
to discuss prices ? — A. Nothing of the kind.

Q. Then your company, the International, is untrammelled to-day by any restric-
tions, either of the Paper Makers' Association of Canada or with the independent mills
in the United States ? — A. Not that I am aware of.

Q. You are not aware of any such arrangement ? — A. Not aware of any such ar-
rangement.

Cross-examined by Mr. Aylesworth, E.C.. representing the Press Association :

Q. Your company was incorporated in January, 1S98 ( — A. You gave the date,
which I assume is correct.

Q. It is correct, is it not, January, 1898 ? — A. I think it is.

Q. Absorbed — that is the proper word — some fifty odd mills ? — A. I could not
give you exact information in regard to that without referring to the record.

Q. Could you not talk approximately ? — A. Oh, I think we call it about thirty-one.
• Q. When you started, when you incorporated ? — A. At the present time.

Q. Well, have nearly an equal number, or something approaching that number
gone out of operation ? My information is, that when you began operations you took
into the company, or took over, some thirty odd mills, that had previously been in
operation, is not that right i — A. Less than thirty ; rather than more than thirty, 1
would say.

Q. Some new mills have since been taken in, have they not, some additional mills ?
— A. Yes, since the date of the original — that is, since the original date of the forma-
tion of the company.

Q. Amounting altogether to fifty-four, I am told ? — A. I think about thirty-one
at the present timp.

Q. That may be, but were there not fifty-four all told, since you have begun, that
have been either absorbed by your company or gone out of business in some shape ?
— A. If you were to ask me the number of mills that have gone out of business since
the organization of the International

Q. I mean, gone out of business as a consequence of their coming under your man-
agement or control ? — A. Not that I am aware of.

Q. Whereabouts were those mills situated, however many of them there were ? —
A. Maine, New Hampshire, New England States, and New York.

Q. That woidd cover it ? — A. Yes.
.5.3—11*

16-t RorsL coiiiiissioy re alleged paper combine

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. And at the time your company was incorporated, January, 1898, -what propor-
tion of the total output of jsaper for those States came into your incorporation ? — A. I
do not recall ever seeing a statement made as to the proportion of the output of the
States being .included in the International.

Q. Would you say that there was 10 per cent of the total output of those States,
New England, and New York, which was not at the time you were incorporated taken
into your organization ? — A. Well, I would not say any per cent, since I don't Imow,
never having looked the matter up with a view of knowing.

Q. But I want to get an idea whether it was not practically a fusion of all the
manufacturers of paper in the New England States and New York State, news print ?
— A. It included a large proportion of the mills.

Q. Did it not include 90 per cent of the total output ? — A. I don't know that it did.

Q. You would not contradict that statement? — A. I would not say that it did or
did not, simply because I never looked it up with a view to know it.

Q. You would neither affirm nor deny? — A. No.

Q. Since that time has there been any substantial increase in the output of those
States, outside of your company ? — A. Yes.

Q. What companies ? — A. The Great Northern.

Q. Any other ? — A. Not of any consequence.

Q. So that at the present time the International and the Great Northern practi-
cally control the output in New York State and New England States, do they not ? —
A. They control a large percentage of it.

Q. Ninety per cent ? — A. I would not say that, because I don't know.

Q. You said to. Mr. White, probably 60 per cent, your own company? — A. I said
that I had seen it stated that we produced 60 per cent of the total output of the United
States.

Q. Of the whole of the United States ? — A. Yes. Now, if you segregate New Eng-
land and New York States, you would divorce me from facts that I would be able to
answer.

Q. Of course, it would be a large proportion of the output of those States if they
■were segregated ? — -A. Yes.

Q. The Great Northern have — I don't remember if Mr. Dillon stated how many
mills there were producing at the present time ?^A. Two, what he characterized, two
different mills in Maine.

Q. Both situated in Maine ? — A. Both.

Q. Then you spoke of orders that you had taken in Canada during 1900 ? — A. Yes.

Q. Some better than 2jc. f.o.b. mills ? — A. Yes.

Q. And did you take any at lower iigures ? — A. None less than 2Jc. f.o.b. mills,
during 1900.

Q. You have since that, I think, have you not ? — A. We have taken business during
the present year at less.

Q. How low? — A. Two cents.

Q. Is that the lowest ? — A. That is the lowest f.o.b. mills.

Q. That is, you made sales for consumption in Canada during 1901 at 2c. delivered
at your mills ? — A. F.o.b. cars at the mills.

Q. You did not sell at a loss ? — A. Well, you see, we would not •

Q. I am asking that as a question in the most insinuating form ; you would not
do anything like that unless you had some special reason ? — A. What we might do
under special conditions, it is impossible for me to answer in advance.

Q. Well, put it this way. When you sold at 2c. a pound or $2.00 a 100 pounds,
did you make a loss ?— A. Well, in making a sale, I assume that I do not — although
1 do not personally know that that was true.

Q. Well, you had some idea of what it had cost you to produce and you thought,
I presume, that you were making a fair living profit when you went into that contract ?

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 1(55

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

— A. The price made was due entirely to the market conditions that the paper trade
could get, with a view to the cost of the paper to manufacture.

Q. You would not have sold at one cent a pound, would you ? — -A. I never offered
paper to anyone at one cent a pound.

Q. But you were quite willing to sell at 2c. f.o.b. mills as many Canadians as
came along with their orders ? — A. I was quite willing to sell this particular customer
at 2c. at the mill.

Q. Was there only one ? — A. There was only one.

Q. He was not a large consumer ? — A. I did not ask him his consumption, or do
not know it now.

Q. And the amount you sold him was how much ?— A. Relatively small amount.

Q. As much as a carload ? — A. I don't recollect exactly what the amount was.

Q. It was not more than a carload, was it ? — A. I should say not.

Q. Were there any special circumstances pertaining to that customer whereby you
wished to favour him ? — A. It was simply in hopes that by making him a low price, I
might secure his business for the future.

Q. It was the first transaction you had with him ? — A. Yes.

Q. And you are quite content to continue supplying him at that jjrice as much
as he wanted ? — A. He has not afforded me an opportunity yet.

Q. I was not asking you as to the event, but as to your own willingness to supply
him ; would you be quite willing to supply him under these conditions ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was about what month ? — A. I could not tell you without referring to the
record.

Q. Within the last six months anyway ? — A. Yes, within the last six months.

Q. Did the q^iestion of quality cut any figure in the quotations or in the trans-
action ? — A. None whatever. As a matter of fact, a concession was made on my part
with reference to the matter of quantity, due to the hope that it might lead to business
of larger volume.

Q. You were casting bread on the water. About what quality was the paper as
compared with your United States consumption ? — A. Our standard grade of paper.

Q. It was your standard grade ? — A. Yes.

Q. That would be somewhat superior to the grade that I showed one witness this
morning, I presume ? Look at this copy of the Toronto Glohe of yesterday and tell me
how that grade that you sell for 2c. compared with that ? — A. Well, it was a different
paper.

Q. Superior in value or inferior ? — A. That would depeijd entirely upon the atti-
tude of the purchaser.

Q. I am si)eaking from a papermaker's standpoint, how would the quality you sold
for 2c. compare with the quality of the paper you are looking at ? — A. Based upon its
cost of manufacture, no better than this.

Q. How about its selling price in the market ? — A. That depends entirely upon the
peculiarities of the purchaser. Let me make this plain to you. We have some cus-
tomers who insist on having a very rough finished paper ; we have some others who
insist on having a very high finished paper. It is purely a question of calendering in
the mill, which does not involve this cost of manufacturing at all. It is simply to meet
the taste of the consumer.

Q. What I want to get at is : Compare the quality of the grade of the paper that
you sell for 2c. this present year in Canada, with the paper you are looking at, the
Evening Toronto Glohe yesterday. Yovi say, so far as the cost to the producer is con-
cerned, it is equal ? — A. I have nothing to do with the manufacturing department,
but in a general way the cost of manufacturing papar depends largely upon the per-
centages of sulphite and ground wood which enter into its manufacture. I would
determine this by testing its strength rather than the question of surface and the
question of colour.

166 ROYAL COillllSSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Well, judging it by those tests that you apply, I ask you how the paper that you
sell for 2e. would compare with the value of the paper before you, in the edition of
yesterday's Toronto Glohe ? — A. I have customers who would pay more for this paper
than they would the paper I supply. I have customers who would pay less for this paper
than the paper I supply.

Q. Looking at it from a manufacturer's standpoint, is there any difference in the
cost of production ? — A. Practically nothing.

Q. In your market, that is, in the United States market, with the taste of yoiir
newspaper publishers here, how would the grade compare ? — A. I should say it is ap-
proximately a standard grade of paper.

Q. That is, the paper you are looking at ? — A. Yes.

Q. That quality of paper, costing that much to you to produce, you could sell at
present prices and during the year 1901, afFord to sell at 2c. a pound ; — A. F.o.b. mill
net, without any deductions or reclamation of any kind.

Q. Did the width of the sheet cut any figure with you in taking the order ? — A.
Xot in my efiort to get an opening with a customer.

Q. Does it, in making the price, cut any figure ? — A. It would ultimately on the
execution of the contract.

Q. How ? Depending on the size of your machine ? — A. Yes.

Q. And you would give, of course, a carload price for a large order ? — A. Govern-
ed entirely by the circumstances, and if you permit me I want to say : That we have
customers who would not even be satisfied with this paper because it is not rough
enough.

Q. They would want a different quality ? — A. Xo, the same quality but a different
finish.

Q. Take the circumstances as they existed when you began this sale, that I have
been asking you about, at 2c. At what figTire could you have afforded to enter into
a contract with a consumer if he had given you an order of ten tons a day for a year ;
what figure could you have afforded to give him on it, and still make a living profit I
— A. I would not answer you a question of that kind. That is a subject a good many
people are interested in, to know what we can afford to make paper for, and I would
suggest that the best means of obtaining that information is to become a paper
manufacturer.

Q. But in Canada we should have to put up a $500 deposit ? — A. Well, if by
making the deposit it would afford you the information, you would not hesitate for
a minute.

Q.- Seriously, is that a question you prefer not to answer ? — A. I don't think it
is a fair one.

Q. I don't want to pry into your business secrets at all, but you can tell me this
at all events. Under the conditions I put to you, assuming that I go to you with
that very consumer with tbe proposition such as I mentioned, to take 10 tons a day for
a year, could you have afforded to reduce the price materially below 2c. a pound ? — A. I
do not think it is possible to answer the question without having the firm offer in hand.

Q. You would not like to answer the question iipon any other basis, you would
like to see the offer in writing ? — A. Xo, sir ; we might want more.

Q. Well, I would like to press the question to this extent ; if you say j'ou de-
cline to answer, that ends it. — A. That is, as to what we could afford to take an order
at. I don't regard that as a proper question for an answer.

Q. Put it in the way I said, will you answer me or will you say that you decline ;
it is entirely at your option ? — A. I want to treat you fairly in regard to that ; state
it over again.

Q. I think it is my legal right in cross-examining. I shall not press you any fur-
ther if you decline to state ; that is the end of it.

Witness. — As to what price we could afford to make it at ?

MiyVTES OF EVIDENCE 107

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Yes, such a contract as I named to you ? — A. I think it would \jv impossible
for me to give you an answer based upon assuming conditions that don't exist.

Q. If I go to you with an offer of ten tons a day, for a yeaj's consumption, of the
quality of paper that you sell to the Canadian consumer during the present year for
2c. a pounil, to take from you ten tons a day, could you afford to let mo have it at
$1.90 a hundred '< — A. There is no evidence that there is any such consumer of paper
in Canada.

Q. ITou reserve that answer ? — A. I would certainly decline to make a reply based
upon the question as to what we could afford to do.

Q. In other words, you would not tell me if I asked you what it costs to make
100 pounds of paper ? — A. Most certainly not.

Q. And you do not want to answer any other questions that would involve giving
that information to the public ( — A. I would bo incompetent in the first place, because
I do not know what it costs us to make paper.

Q. But as business manager of your company you would be the man who would
control the prices at which your manufacture is sold ? — A. I have only to do with the
making of the prices of paper for export.

Q. And in that department of your business you are supreme ? — A. Governed by
market conditions.

Q. It rests in your hands to decide this ? — A. My decision is based upon what I
regard the market.

Q. I don't ask you that. Of course your decision will be in the interest of your
company, but I am asking you whether there is anyone of authority in your company
can cancel your qviotation, or what you would say would be decisive ? — A. I am not
the autocrat of the selling price of the International.

Q. That is hardly an answer. If you made an arrangement with a purchaser, or
with a man who offered to purchase in Canada, would your quotation be over-ruled by
any person superior in authority, or would your decision be final ? — A. It might be
ov(?i-ruled, although I don't think it would.

Q. Well, then, you, occupying that position, have the right practically to control
the figure at which you would sell. I ask whether you would take any order, on the
conditions, of course, of 10 tons a day consumj^tion, for a year, would yo\i reject an
offer of $1.90 a hundred, the same grade of paper which you see before you ? — A. I
could not say that I would or that I would not.

Q. You would have to leave it to be determined by the occasion when it arose ? —
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Supposing I made it $1.80, you say at once you would reject it? — A. No, I
would make you the same reply that I did before.

Q. Supposing I made you an offer, when would it reach a figure at which you would
say ' I would reject' > — A. I would not reply to you at any figure you make.

Q. It would be idle for me to go on i — A. It would depend on circumstances on
each occasion.

Q. Of course you would not tell me when I would reach a figure that under no
circumstances would you listen to it ? — A. No, sir.

Q. In this letter of yours, Mr. Spicer, P — 39, you say you have a note from Mr.
Ridder, of New York, asking you to quote Mr. Tarte direct your price for 34 inch
rolls ? — A. Yes.

Q. That, of course, was a truthful statement ? Mr. Ridder had simply asked you
to do that ?— A. Yes.

Q. Then you add that you had receipt of a communication from the Laurentide
that they had arranged to furnish ? — A. Yes. ,

Q. That also was truthful ? — A. Yes.

Q. That was a communication by post ? — A. My impression was that that was
both Covered by the former communication, a verbal one as well.

Q. Interview ? — A. Yes.

16S liOYAL COilMISSWX BE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Some representatives of the Laurentide people here in New York ? — A. I think
they came here.

Q. Shortly after Mr. Eidder's inquiry ? — A. Yes.

Q. In consequence of it do you mean ? — A. No connection with it ; purely acci-
dental.

Q. Had there been a personal acquaintance beforehand with their representative
who was here, or was it merely a business interview between you and him,? — A. We
were their selling agents for Great Britain.

Q. You were the selling agents of the Laurentide Company for Great Britain ? —
A. Only.

Q. And had in that way business relations with them ? — A. Yes.

Q. Then was it accidental so far as this inquiry of Mr. Tarte was concerned
that the interview took place ? — A. Entirely.

Q. No connection with Mr. Tarte's inquiry ? — A. None whatever.

Q. By coincidence some representative of the Laurentide Company was present
about that time, is that it ? — A. The Montreal inquiry had no significance at the time,
that is, at the interview.

Q. I understand you, I think, perfectly. If I understand you right, contempor-
aneously, approximately with the inquiry from Mr. Bidder, occurred the business in-
terview between yourself and tlie representative of the Laurentide Company ? — A.
Which were of frequent occurrence.

Q. Without any reference to the inquiry ? — A. None whatever.

Q. And either he or yovi mentioned the fact of the inquiry ? — A. No, that was not
discussed, because the inquiry had not taken place at that time.

Q. But you say in your note to Mr. Tarte of the 11th May, 1900, that you are in
receipt of a communication from the Laurentide, saying that company had arranged
to furnish Mr. Tarte with his requirements ? — A. Yes.

Q. And that, you now tell me, was information you had secured both by post
and by an interview ? — A. Yes.

Q. Then, I ask you how the subject came up between yourself and the represen-
tative of the Laurentide ? — A. Just simply discussing the conditions in Canada, fol-
lowing directly the Eddy fire, and simply telling me in a general way the various
orders they had secured.

Q. In that way he happened to mention Mr. Tarte's paper, or the name of his
paper ? — A. I found that in the list.

Q. He left you the list of his customers ? — -A. I took the list of the orders he had
secured.

Q. What object was there in that, merely friendly interest ? — -A. Nothing further.

Q. You took from him a list of the Canadian orders he secured ; you noted them
down as he stated ? — A. Yes, I noted them down.

Q. And when this inquiry came a few days later from Mr. Bidder you noticed
La Patrie was among them ? — A. Yes.

Q. So you thought, as a matter of gentlemen's understanding, you would not
encroach on their territory ? — A. That letter was calculated to elicit from Mr. Tarte
the information as to whether his order had been placed or not.

Q. That was your intention in writing ? — A. Yes.

Q. And if his order had not been placed witli the Laurentide you would have
felt free to deal with him ? — A. Very glad to.

Q. But you would not encroach on their reserves ? — A. No, but the order hav-
ing been already placed it would be idle for me to attempt a quotation.

Q. So your idea was-^-your design was in writing this letter, to ascertain from
Mr. Tarte whether it was a fact that he liad entered into a contract with the Lauren-
tide ? — A. Decidedly.

Q. You would not have felt disposed to underbid them, would you, having the
relations with them which you have described ? — A. I did not get any reply to this
letter at all.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 1(J9

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. It was not at all what I asked you ? — A. I should have been perfectly willing
and- glad to have made a price ; whether I would be below or above results would de-
velop.

Q. And would I be right in assuming that you felt free to underbid the Lauren-
tide Company ? — A. I would ha^'e been entirely free to have made them a price.

Q. Whether it would have been under or below would have depended on your
own judgment ? — A. Entirely. I would have been entirely willing to make them a price.

Q. Knowing it would be useless to make them a higher one ? — A. I had no in-
formation as to the price obtained by the Laurentide, and the knowledge that I had of
the orders that they took was purely- unofficial, informal, entirely so.

Q. Just arising in the way you mentioned ? — A. Yes, and did not involve the
question of price in any particular.

Q. You were not told by the Laurentide representative at what price ? — -A. No.

Q. And did not know in fact ? — A. Did not know, as a matter of fact, did not
know.

Q. But were open to have entered into a transaction if. in reply to this letter,
Mr. Tarte has informed you of the price, and you had found it was one at which you
could afford to undersell ? — -A. Yes, had he named a price at which he could have made
a purchase, and was open to buy, and I had felt that it was good business to have
made him a lower one, I should have been quite willing to have done so.

Q. Taking into consideration what elements which would go to show in your line,
what was good business ? — A. Well, the best reply to that is that I did take soma
good contracts in Canada at that time.

Q. Not in competition with the Laurentide Company ? — A. I was unaware at
the time, and am unaware even to-day as to whether I was in competition with them
or not.

Q. You took no concern in it ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Were those some of the contracts that you have mentioned, that you have
alluded to, that were netting you more than 2i cents ? — A. Yes.

Q. Just in that connection, tell me how much more than 2J cents ; how high
would you put it, would you say ? — A. Well, simply repeat my reply, that it was
above 2J cents.

Q. You could not tell me how much above ? — A. No, it is not necessary.

Q. Were there any below 2i cents, except the one I have alluded to ? — A. There
were none below 2A cents during the year 1900.

Q. About what size lots would these be, Mr. Spicer ? — A. The largest one, I
think, was for five carloads.

Q. And the smallest ? — A. The smallest, I think, was two carloads.

Q. What months of 1900 would this be in ?^A. Oh, I will be obliged to refer to
my memorandum as to the months, May, July, September and October.

Q. In your business, you discriminate between a customer who would use, say a
ton a day, and a customer taking larger orders ? — A. It depends on circumstances con-
nected with the business.

Q. Each individual case governs ? — A. Yes.

Q. Would this be right, Mr. Spicer, that a man who might consume only a ton a
day could, under any circumstances, get as good prices as the man who would con-
sume ten tons a day ? — A. Under certain circumstances, yes. In trying to develop an
export business, we are sometimes obliged to ignore the question of tonnage in making
prices for a sale purpose, or making development business, but the consideration is not
based upon toimage, but upon other things.

Q. Would like consideration obtain with regard to the home market in the States ?
— A. No, I don't think the same considerations would apply.

Q. In what respect would they differ ? — A. In that the conditions are fixed here.
The consumption is all served by production here, and it is not in the nature of work-
ing up new business, as it is in connection with the export, so the same considerations
don't apply.

170 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

EVIDENCE TAKEN AT MONTREAL, JULY 30th. 1901.

WALTER S. MARSAN.

Examined 5// Mr. Aylesworth. E.C., in rch at tal,- representing the Pre:S
Association :

Q. Tou were asked to produce an agreement or contract under which the Star
newspaper is now receiving its supply of news print paper. Did you bring it with you ?
A. No, sir.

Q. Why not ? — A. Well, I am not the custodian of this document. In Mr.
Graham's absence I was not able to possess myself of it for the purpose. Mr. Graham
was absent from the city yesterday.

Q. Have you not been able to see Mr. Graham this morning ? — A. I saw hiui, but
only at a distance.

Q. Not to speak with him ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Do you mean that you were not able to produce the document to the court ? — A.
Not in Mr. Graham's absence. If I wanted the document, I would have to go to Mr.
Graham to get it.

Q. Do you mean it is in his custody personally ? — A. I would have to go to him
to get it.

Q. If I understand you right, you mean you don't like to take the responsibility of
bringing it without consulting him 'i — A. I would not take the responsibility of pro-
ducing the document without Mr. Graham knowing it.

Q. There is no lahysical diiEculty in the way of your getting access to it ? — A. I
presume I am able to get at it.

Q. Can you produce it in half an hour or in quarter of an hour ? — A. If I wns
asked to produce it. I could not get it yesterday, because he was not in the city.

Q. Could you, in half an hour, say, bring the document to the court, if Mr. Gra-
ham consents ? — A. Yes.

By the Commissioner :

Q. Can you state from memory the price at which you are being furnished with
paper, news print ? — A. No, sir, I cannot state it.

By Mr. Aylesiuorth, K.C. :

Q. The Star is being supplied by the Canada Paper Company ? — A. I believe so,
yes.

Q. And has been for some two years past i — A. I am not quite sure about it.

JAMES HARDY.

Examined liy Mr. White. E.C., representing the Paper Makers' Association :

Q. You have been already sworn in this examination ? — A. Yes.

Q. You are the secretary and custodian of all the books and have a knowledge of
the financial matters of the Paper Makers' Association ? — A. Yes.

Q. What is the position of the Laurentide Pulp Company ; have they ever con-
tributed towards the funds of the association ? — A. No.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 171

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. Are they recognized as members of the association I — A. Never recognized
them ; never asked them to pay anything towards the running expenses of the associa-
tion.

Q. Are yon aware they are hirge manufacturers of news print ? — -A. Yes.

Q. Amongst the largest, are they not i — A. I understand so.

HUGH i:raham.

Examined hi/ Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Assoeiatio?}. :

Q. You are proprietor of the Star newspaper of this city ? — A. Yes.

Q. And at present you are getting your supply of news print from what source I
— A. Getting it from the Canada Paper Company.

Q. How long has that company been supplying you ? — A. Off and on for the last
thirty odd years.

Q. Is the supplv that vou are getting being made under any definite contract ( —
A. Yes.

Q. Is that contract in writing ? — A. Yes.

Q. Would you have any objection to our seeing it ? — A. Yes.

Mr. Aylesworth. — I want to ask, with regard to those terms, my Lord, to ask
that Mr. Graham produce them to your Lordship, so that it would'not be made pub-
lic beyond this commission.

Mr. White, K.C. — Possibly there are some matters in the contract Mr. Graham
does not care to divulge, and I think what my learned friend wants, is the price.

Witness. — I am quite willing to give any information pertinent to the inquiry,
but these contracts are, in their very nature, private. In fact, it is one of the condi-
tions, that they have, and have been for the last twenty-five years, regarded as private
contracts. I could not very well reveal that.

The Commissioner. — The court would not force you to exhibit the contracts, but
to inform the counsel as to the contents.

By Mr. Aylesworth, K.C. :

Q. Will you tell me, then, when the contract was entered into ? — A. In the end
of April or the beginning of May, 1899.

Q. And is still current, still exists ? — A. Yes.

Q. You take a very large supply, I suppose, larger than any other paper in the
Dominion ? — A. I may say so.

Q. Then, I wish to ask at what price per 100 pounds yovi are being supplied ? — A.
Well, I don't feel at liberty to reveal that. Perhaps I should explain. This contract
was made the end of April or the beginning of May, 1899, before the rise in the price
of labour and the price of chemicals, for all kinds of supplies used by paper makers,
and at the time the contract was made there was considerable competition, because
our contract is a large contract ; the consumption is about twelve tons a day, regarded
as a desirable contract — a good deal of competition for it, and in the contract it is not
specifically stated, under the contract and under the condition of it. It is the nature
of a private affair. I have no objection to telling you that it is at a lower rate than
the prevailing rates of the present day.

Mr. Aylesworth, K.C. — The importance of it, my Lord, in my view, is that so
large a contract, would, I intend to argue, not be entered into by a manufacturer at a
loss, and we have been unable to secure any direct evidence from any manufacturer

272 ROYAL COMMISSION BE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

of tlie actual cost of nianufact'iring 100 pounds of paper, I wish to argue that it is at
least lower than the amount of this contract. That is the importance of it to me. I
therefore press the question. Mr. Graham should tell lis the figure at which he is being
supplied per 100 pounds.

Mr. White, K.C. — I submit, that as regards the cost of manufacture, we have all
the details that have been produced by Mr. Barber in his evidence. He has given us
the cost of labour and raw material, and what his price was, &c., so that I submit the
conditions under which different manufacturers are producing paper, being so various,
it is hardly necessary.

Mr. Ayleswoeth, K.C— It is very important. At least, I think so. Let me point
■out that it has been a matter which has been before my learned friends on the other
side from the outset, in regard to which they were perfectly aware, and which we in-
tended to make an effort to ascertain what the exact fact was.

I find in Mr. Hardy's examination, taken in Toronto on the fifth June last, that
he was asked if he had knowledge of this particular contract. He says he has been
told there was such a contract, but does not Itnow whether the figure is under $2.00 or
not.

Then Mr. MacFarlane evidently, I submit, with that testimony before him, re-
ferred to this contract in his depositions to Mr. White ; speaking of it without men-
tioning Mr. Graham's name, it is true, but speaking of it as one particular contract
which his company had entered into at less than $2.00 for various reasons, which he
referred to, much the same reasons as those Mr. Graham has given. Now, it is im-
portant, I thinks that we should know the exact figure.

The CoMMissiOKEE. — Did that witness give an insight into the prices ?

Mr. Ayleswobth, K.C. — No, my Lord, except that it was below $2.00, but to be
■exact at all, he has not told us^

The CoiiiiissiONER. — Would not that suffice you for the purpose of your argument ?

Mr. Aylesworth, K.C. — Supposing I prove it to be below $1.7.5 it would suffice me
much better. I have no doubt Mr. Graham would say it is not below $1.75, but I have
instructions as to the exact figure, but I ask your lordship's permission to ask Mr.
Graham to tell me whether it is that very figure which I mention to him, because it is
of such vital importance to this inquiry.

The Commissioner. — I think, Mr. Graham, it is very important for the purposes
of this inquiry, to have an answer to the question, if you can possibly give it. It seems
to me in the public interest, and the particular purpose of this inquiry is to ascertain
such facts as may aid the court in arriving at a proper conclusion.

By Mr. Aylesworth, K.C. :

Q. Would you answer in this way, Mr. Graham, it is less than $1.90 per 100? — A.
iSo.

Q. Is it less than $2.00 i — A. I object to going beyond that, may it please the court,
unless I am absolutely forced to do it. But I may say this in explanation, and which
will be information of a material character for the counsel, that the Canada Paper
Company made that contract before the rise in the price of chemicals, and since the
contract was entered into, they have intimated to us that they were losing money on
every pound of paper furnished, and led me to infer that if I were willing^ they would
cancel the contract. These are absolute facts, and repeatedly they have given me to
understand that they were losing money.

Mr. Aylesworth, K.C. — Of courscj it is evidently your interest not only not to dis-
close this amount, but also to demonstrate that it is not a contract unduly favourable
.to the manufacturer.

MINUTES OP EVIDENCE 173-

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Witness. — I cannot disclose the facts in that contract without a breach of faith,
that is, voluntarily.

Q. But evidently it is your interest or your wish to give the court to understand,-
that there are strong reasons for the making of that contract, and this contract on
which you say there is, according to the statement of the manufacturer, a loss on
every pound of paper, is the reason for your taking that position, the circumstance
that if you disclose this, you might not be able to get as favourable a contract again ?
— A. I do not need to explain to you that it is not customary for parties to a con-
tract to reveal details of that contract, unless under compulsion.

The Commissioner. — You said, if I understand you well, that the price was not
under $1.90 ?— A. No.

Q. Have you any objection to state whether it is between $2 and $1.90 ? — A. It
is just $1.90.

Cross-examined hy Mr. White, E.C., representing the Paper Makers' AssO'
ciation :

Q. When did you say this contract was made ? — A. The end of April or the be-
ginning of May, 1899. •

Q. And it is made for a term of years ? — A. Yes.

Q. The Canada Paper Company had been supplying you, you say, with large
quantities of paper in the past ?— A. Off and on since 1869 ; not continuously, you
know.

Q. You say the quantity supplied is about twelve tons a day ? — A. About twelve
tons a day. >

Q. Did they explain, give you reasons, for the low price at which it was made ? —
A. They said that the consumption was the largest individual consumption in Can-
ada, that it was an objeqt to place such a large amount of paper in one hand. It is
a cash contract, pajrments are cash, and it was desirable that so large a share of the
output of the mills should be secured in that way.

Q. You are using a regular quality of paper, a machine can run continuously oi>
that class of paper ? — A. Oh, yes.

Re-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, E.C., representing the Press Association :

Q. You are not acquainted, I suppose, with the cost of producing 100 pounds oi
paper ? — A. No, I only 'know what they have told me, and as evidence of their sin-
cerity they offered to cancel my contract, if I was willing.

Q. You don't know when they said that they were selling this to you at that
price , at a loss, whether they meant that it was a loss as compared with what they
could get elsewhere in the market, or whether they meant it was a loss as compared
with the actual cost of production ? — A. The time the contract was entered into, they
did not pretend they were selling at a loss, but afterwards there was a rise in labour
and chemicals. They did not pretend at the time that they were making a loss.

Q. And they since told you that they could do better ? — A. They were suffering
a loss on every pound they sold.

Q.- 1 ask you whether you are in a position to say, assuming that to be true, that
they were losing because they could sell to better advantage — an actual loss, or less
profit ? — A. Mr. MacFarlane was very specific in his statement that he was suffering
an absolute loss on every pound of paper.

Q. Do you mean you understood him to say it was costing him more than that
to produce it ? — A. I certainly so understood him.

174 ROYAL COlIillSSWX RE ALLEGED PAPER coMBiyE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

JEAX D. HOLLAND

Examined hy Mr. White, K.C., representing the Paper Makers' Association :

Q. Tou are aware that the paper on which most of our newspaper is printed to-
day is called Xo. 3 news j^rint ? — A. Yes.

Q. What is the sig'nificance of that Xo. 3 ? Is there a Xo. 1 news print and Xo.
2 news print and so forth ? — A. Xews print used for newspapers, there is only one
quality, which is called Xo. 3 news print, either in sheets or in rolls.

Q. As a matter of fact, the old grading of paper, the Xo. 1 is the finest class of
paper ? — A. That is book paper.

Q. No. 2 ? — That is book paper. Xo. 1 is a superior quality for book to Xo. 2;
Xo. 2 is inferior to Xo. 1 ; Xo. 1 is called a high class paper, and Xo. 2 book paper.

By the Commissioner;
Q. Both numbers are book ? — A. Yes.

By Mr. White, K.C.:

Q. But when you speak of Xo. 3 news print, you don't mean there are three grades
of news print i — A. Xever. That is the grade in print. Xo. 1 is book; Xo. 2 ordi-
nary book, and Xo. 3 news. •

Q. You are familiar with the news print used in the United States ? — A. Yes.

Q. How does the news print compare for quality with the news jjrint used in
Canada ? — A. Except maybe one newspaper there, the general run of newspapers in
Canada is equal to the ordinary run in the States.

Q. You refer to the Xew York Herald ? — A. Yes, the New York Herald.

Q. The Xew York Herald is printed on highly calendered paper, because of their
cuttings and illustrations ? — A. Maybe the quality of paper does not cost more than
it costs to our paper makers here, but it is on account of the great quantity, and the
continuous running for the year on the same machine, that they can finish their paper
a little better.

Q. But as to the quantity of stock used, the quantity of raw material aised, I
suppose there would be a very slight difference ? — A. ^l\ impression is that it is about
the same proportion.

Q. So the cost to tlie manufacturer would be about the same ? — A. Yes.

Cross-examined hy Mr. Aylesworth, K.C., representing the Press Association-:

Q. Are you familiar with the system of grading in the United States, or in the
Xew York market, or are you speaking with reference to Canada ? — A. I am speaking
of the American market. The proportion of stock used is the same, because we have
occasion to meet paper makers in the States.

Q. I was not referring to that, but I refer to this grading. I understood from some
of the men in the trade, who testified in Xew York city, that they were in the huuit
of grading news print, one, two, three ? — A. Oh, never.

Q. You are not aware of that ? — A. Xo, sir.

Q. We produced there the exhibits. Here is a copy of the Glohe which was pro-
duced, also the Toronto Evening Star of the same date ; is there any difFerence in
the quality, the grade of paper of those two ? — A. These are the same grade.

Q. This is a copy of the Herald; is this a better finish ? — A. It is a better finish.
I must say that the general run of the Glohe, or the Mail, or Star is superior to the
two samples you gave me there.

Q. These are both inferior samples ? — A. They are made from the same stock,
but some time the machine will not produce as good one day as another.

MINUTE ti OF EVIDENCE I75

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Q. How is that ? — A. You study from the paper maker. He will tell you that.

Q. These were produced previously. They were the latest edition at the time we
took evidence, and the witnesses there spoke of them as being both an inferior grade.
You agree they are not up to the ordinary quality ? — A. I agree it is the regular run,
the ordinary run of a paper mill. A paper mill may make a little better one day than
tlip other.

Re-examined hy Mr. ^Yhite, K.C., representing the Paper Manufacturers' Asso-
. elation.

Q. Do you happen to ^now where that paper is manufactured ? — A. 1 am not very
sure. I know one of them is made at the Riordan Mills at Merritton, and one is made.
at the Laurentide.

ARGUMENTS.

By Mr. Aylesworth, K.C, Repeesenting the Press Association.

The first consideration which, it seems to me, important to ask your lordship's at-
tention to in connection with this inquiry is the provision of the statute under which
the commission issued. Section 18 of the Act 00-61 Victoria, chapter 16, provides the
circumstances under which a commission of this character should issue, and the scope
of the inquiry. ' Whenever the Governor in (.'ouncil has reason to believe that with
regard to any article of commerce, there exists any trust, combination, association or
agreement of any kind among manufacturers of such article, or dealers therein, to
unduly enhance the price of such article or in any other way unduly promote the advan-
tage of the manufacturers or dealers at the expense of the consumers then the Governor
may direct a commission to issue to report to the government whether such combina-
tion, trust, association or agreement exists.'

The scope of the investigation here, then, is to inquire whether or not it has been
established that an association, combination or agreement does to-day exist among
the manufacturers of this article, printing paper, and if so, whether that association
or combination is one to unduly enhance the ijrice of that article, or in any other way
to unduly promote the advantage of the manufacturers at the expense of the consumers.

We submit to your lordship upon the evidence that has been adduced, that the re-
port which your lordship should make in that respect should be in the affirmative, as
to both points of inquiry.

In the first place, with regard to the existence of such an association or agreement
among the manufacturers, there can be no question. In that respect the case stands
conceded. We have the actual document of agreement or association. It will be noted
that it is not any question of whether all the manufacturers in the country have entered
into the combination, association, or agreement, but whether such combination, associa-
tion or agreement, as is described in the statute, exists. Here, whether all have entered
into it or not, it is demonstrated that such a combination does exist, and that a con-
siderable proportion, in fact, I shall argue upon the evidence, practically all the pro-
ducers of this particular class of jjaper, have entered into it.

Now, looking at that agreement which is produced, the purposes and objects of it
are very apparent. It is an agreement entered into formally and in writing, under
date of 21st February, 1900, signed by some twenty-six manufacturers of paper. It is
now said that of these signatories only twelve have actually made the deposit with the
treasurer which the agreement calls for, and that the other fourteen are not recognized
by the twelve, as I would understand the testimony of the secretary, as being members
of the association. As I have pointed out, that seems to us to make no difference.

176 ROTAL COMMISSION HE ALLEGED PAPER COMHIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

We established that there does exist in this country such an association, combination or
agreement among manufacturers of paper — the statute does not say how many manu-
facturers of paper — as, we undertake to say, does unduly enhance the price, or was in-
tended to have that effect.

In the first place, as there has been considerable testimony from gentlemen who
are parties to this agreement or arrangement with regard to its objects, as one at any
rate, perhaps more than one of the witnesses who were examined before your lordship
three weeks ago, seemed to endeavour to persuade the court that this agreement had
for its object rather the keeping down of prices that that of increasing them. Let
us look at the terms of the document to ascertain from it the objects of the associa-
tion : The agreement witnesseth that the parties form themselves into an associa-
tion to be called and known as the Paper Manufacturers' Association of Canada. Then
the document states that the object of this association shall be, among other objects :
the regulation and maintenance of fair prices of paper. Now, at least, we pause
there for a moment. Let me ask the court what it is, this definite, distinct statement
on the face of the instrument of agreement, that they are banded together for the main-
tenance of prices which will seem fair to them. Of course, it would be out of the
question to find any body of men engaged in the manufacture of any commodity stat-
ing on the face of an agreement they might enter into, with regard to the price of
their output, that their combination was for the purpose of maintaining prices that
were unfair. That would be a thing not supposable. They would be sure to call the
price fair which they themselves established. Upon the face of this document then,
it is a distinct statement that the objection of their association is the regulation and
maintenance of prices. The use of the modifying adjective ' fair ' with regard to the
prices is their own choice of words, is what might seem fair in their eyes without any
regard to the interests of the purchaser or consumer, and carries the matter no further
than if they had said in so many words : ' We combine to maintain prices.' And the
remaining features of the agreement suggest the course which they have taken under
that association or agreement, demonstrate the fact to be that the association was
formed for the sole purpose of maintaining such prices as they will choose to fix.
The secretary-treasure is, by the fifth paragraph of the agreement, to advise simul-
taneously by wire or post as directed by the association, all members of the associa-
tion, all resident or other agents of members of the association and as far as possible
all travellers, of any changes in the association prices or terms. It is provided in
paragraph six that any resolution adopted at any meeting by a majority of the mem-
bers then present shall be binding upon all the parties hereto. There is an express
covenant by the parties signing that they will conform to and abide by any resolution
adopted under the provisions of this Article 6.

Then, finally, that they will not quote, accept, book orders for, offer or agree to
seU, or sell, the goods covered by the agreement at lower prices or on better terms and
conditions than those fixed by the schedule or by any schedule that may be adopted by
resolution of the association under Article 6 in substitution. So that the express
covenant of the parties, a covenant of observing, which is insured by the right and
power to impose a very substantial penalty on anyone who makes breach of it, the
express covenant of every signer of this agreement is, that they will not make better
terms or lower prices to any purchaser than the prices fixed by the majority. There
is finally an exjiress obligation in the agreement, each in the penal sum of $500 to
the others, that they will strictly adhere to, observe and fulfil all the above agree-
ments and obligations, and all rules, regulation of the prices, discounts, &c., which may
from time to time be resolved in or adopted by the association, and provision, as your
lordship will remember from reading other clauses of the agreement, that upon any
breach, the secretary shall examine into the matter, and if he find that there has been
any transgression or violation of the agreement by any member, he shall fine the ac-
cused not less than $50 and not more than $500. So that by rigorous penalties,
those manufacturers who have entered into this agreement have bound themselvea

MINUTES OP EVIDENCE \-jj

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

to each other not merely in honour, not merely by their obligation, but under stress of
this heavy pecuniary penalty, that they will be governed by the resolutions of the
majority, and that none of them v?ill sell at a lower figure or on better terms to the'
purchaser than the majority may direct.

Now, that being the indication to be found in the document itself, of the objects
of the association, let me ask your lordship's attention for a moment to the minutes
as demonstrating what those who have banded themselves together under that agree-
ment have done. Your lordship will find at the very opening of the minutes, on the
first page, that a message is sent to all manufacturers to withdraw all quotations or
prices which were then outstanding. Prices are then considered by the body assembled
together. After deliberation and consultation, prices are decided on and on page
five, terms of payment are adopted and the amount of the deposit of penalty is fixed.
Then that having taken place at the outset as the minutes record, within not long
afterwards, — on the ISth April, 1900, within a couple of months of their incorpora-
tion that this body is, by resolution, settling, agi'eeing upon a uniform form of con-
sideration which they are adopting and requiring the purchasers or consumers to
enter into. They regulate the prices; they regulate the terms, and they bind each
other not to sell at lower prices or upon better terms to the purchaser, leaving it to each
to make terms more onerous or the prices higher as they see fit.

Then we have not only the evidence of the document itself, of the proceedings
taken by the association, as demonstrating the objects with which the parties entered
into the agreement in question, but we have also some statements by different witnesses
on the point to which I very briefly refer. Mr. Barber, called on behalf of the paper
makers, and himself a manufacturer, says with regard to the objects of the
association on page nine of his testimony : That the first or original association of
twenty years ago was organized for the purjjose of fixing the price on news as has been
done recently. ' Q. That was the purpose for which the association was originally
formed as you understand it ? — A. Yes.'

Mr. MacFarlane, of the Canada Paper Company, says with regard to the original
organization at page 41, that it was not closely organized, ' but we would meet and dis-
cuss these things and they would fall through afterwards.' ' Q. That was the object
primarily of your "association ? — A. It was only one of the objects ; if the prices were
favourable at the time, they would not be discussed. If they were going down to an
unfavourable basis, we would discuss them very warmly.' That, he says, speaking of
the organization of 1879, which, he says, was an understanding that we would not sell
a certain kind of paper under a certain price. Mr. Barber, with reference to the present
association says, that the old one having fallen pretty much into disuse, the new or
present one was only called for when there was excess of supply over demand. ' Q. To
prevent the reducing of prices too much ? — A. You might put it in that shape.' This
is at page 10 of his testimony.

So that we have both these gentlemen telling us that the purpose of the associa-
tion, the necessity for it, arose when the price is going down because supply exceeds
demand, and the purpose of the association is to correct that and to prevent prices
reaching an unfavourable basis. '

During Mr. MacFarlane's examination a document was produced to him by
my learned friend Mr. White, under date of the 22nd September, 1892, to
which he was a party, and he was asked the purpose for which that agreement was
entered into. He states at page 42 of his testimony : ' Q. What was the object of
drawing this up ? — A. Because we wanted to get prices uniform.

' Q. What is the history of this particular one in 1892 ? — A. To get the prices
uniform.'

Now, when one bears in mind who it is that is speaking, that it is a manufac-
turer who is testifying as to the desirability of uniformity in price, it needs no fur-
ther statement to show that uniformity of price, which will be satisfactory to the
manufacturer, is necessarily a uniformity, that will be at a figure favourable to him and
53—12

178 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

not upon the basis which the law of supply and demand would indicate, if supply was
in excess, so that prices would go down. Mr. Gillean, of the same company as Mr. Mac-
Farlane, also speaks on the same subject, and with brief reference to his statements
about it, I conclude all I have to say as to the objects of this association. He says at
page 93 : ' It was to maintain prices, terms and responsibility.' I do not know what
meaning the witness attached to the word ' responsibility,' which he used. He may
have intended to give us to understand responsibility financially, responsibility for the
amount of a purchase; but the object, as stated by himself, is to maintain prices and
responsibility. That is exactly the contention which we are making. The object of
this association was to maintain or keep up the prices and the terms ; to see that
they were not made in any way to the injury or prejudice of those who were entering
into the combination. The question proceeds to Mr. Gillean immediately after what I
have read on page 93:

' Q. To benefit the members of the association ? — A. It must be some benefit.

' Q. It must not at all keep down the prices. You could trust the buyer to do
that for himself i — A. ' He would look after that himself.'

On the following page, the last reference I shall make to his testimony in that
respect :

' Q. Exiilain to me, if you can, how, in any case, that association existing, could
lower the price ? — A. It could not lower the price; it would not have that eifeet, no.'

Then he is asked, if there is any market in Canada, fixing the prices outside the
association price. He answers : ' Not as far as Canada is concerned. As far as Can-
ada is concerned, there is no other price that the association price.'

Now, that being the nature of this organization, the purpose of it, as set out upon
the document of the association, as demonstrated by the acts of those who met, under
that document, in body assembled, and by their record of proceedings, show that their
work was that of fixing prices satisfactory to themselves, that being the statement by
the men who best know, prominent manufacturers who have been called here, as
representative men, of the objects with which they entered into this arrangement, we
submit to your lordship that it is demonstrated not merely that an association, com-
bination jr agreement exists, but that that agreement is upon the statement of the
parties to it, and of the document itself, an agreement for the purpose of regulating,
for the purpose of maintaining; in other words, for the purpose of keeping up the
price of a commodity under which they deal.

Now, if we have established that much, we have taken the first step, and a long
step towards the result, which we ask your lordship to give in the report to be made to
the Government as to this investigation. There is an agreement shown to exist and
the purpose of it is shown to be the maintaining or keeping up of the prices of paper.
Is it then an agreement to unduly enhance these prices, unduly to promote the ad-
vantage of the manufacturers or dealers at the expense of the consumers ?

It is shown to be an agreement to enhance the price, to maintain that enhanced
price. It is shown to be an agreement to promote the advantage of the manufacturers,
at the expense of the consumers. All that remains of the inquiry is, as to whether
that enhancing of prices and that promotion of the interests of the manufacturer,
the advantage of the manufacturer at the expense of the consumer is an undue thing.

Now, in considering that fact, we have first to look at the position of prices and
at the position of trade at the time this agreement was entered into, to compare the
prices and the conditions that governed or obtained in the trade at that time with the
prices and conditions which were brought about as the effect of this combination, and
inquire then whether the raising of the price and the increase of advantage to the
manufacturer at the expense of the consumer was or was not undue. We have it in
evidence, and uniformly in evidence; in evidence not merely, not contradicted, but in
evidence corroborated by those who have been called on the other side, that for years
prior to the making of this agreement in 1900 the price of this class of paper had been
uniformly decreasing. For some ten or twelve years or more, the cost of production had

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I7<)

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

been decreasing. The improvement in machinery, improved facilities for manufacturing,
the lessening of expense of raw material caused by the substitution of 'wood pulp for
rags, and other circumstances connected with the manufacture of paper that diSerent
witnesses, notably Mr. Barber on the other side have shown the court the fact to be
indutiable, that for ten or eleven years prior to 1900 the price of paper in Canada
had been uniformly decreasing. Mr. Eoss, the first witness called before your lordship,
says so at page 17 of his testimony. He is speaking from an acquaintance practically
with the trade for a period of some twenty odd years, I think. He speaks of the fact
for some twelve years or more. He has been in business as a publisher for that length
of time, and he says, during that time at any rate, the price of paper has been de-
creasing ever since he has had any acquaintance with it.

Mr. Tarte, at page 2, says the same thing, speaking from a course of experience
for some ten years past. ' The prices for all kinds of paper had been going down
steadily,' and he had been buying at a low figure prior to the entering into of the
agreement here in question.

Mr. Robertson, of the Ottawa Journal, speaks in the same line at page 95 of he
evidence, where he says that the price had gradually been reduced during the year.
From his experience it had been declining up to the making of this agreement in
February, 1900.

Then a very important piece of evidence is aiiorded us by Mr. Woodruff, a manu-
facturer from Welland, who was called on the opposite side, and asked, at page 83,
the position of the trade before this last agreement was signed in 1900. He answers :
' The trade for the previous six months had been in a good, healthy state. We con-
sidered it so ; we were' advancing prices right along on it.' So there was no necessity
for the making of this agreement, by reason of conditions of the trade being in any
way unfavourable. Those conditions of trade were, as the manufacturers themselves
testify, prior to the making of this agreement, such that the trade was in a good
healthy state, that they themselves so considered it. There was no reason or necessity
so far as their position was concerned for entering into this agreement in the world.
What was the effect of it ? The effect was at once made manifest, and this is testified
to by numerous witnesses and without any contradiction, although the parties who
could have corrected it, if there had been any mis-statement upon their part, went into
the box on other points in the inquiry.

I call your lordship's attention to that particularly. Here, we have in the first
place Mr. Eoss and Mr. Eobertson, of the Journal Printing Company in Ottawa,
testifying as to what took place between them on the one part, representing their news-
paper, and the Eddy Company on the other part as represented by Mr. Eowley; and
Mr. Eowley was called on the opposite side, examined upon other n-.atters altogether,
and not asked one single question with reference to the statements made by Mr. Eoss
and Mr. Eobertson. That circumstance demonstrates, with this evidence before him
and before counsel upon the other side for some three weeks, for a month, or more,
prior to Mr. Eowley going into the witness box; that circumstance demonstrates,
I say, that the statements made by Mr. Eoss and Mr. Eobertson were absolutely cor-
rect and could not be gainsaid. They tell us that the Journal Printing Company had
a contract with the Eddy Company for the supply of paper at the rate of $2.04 per 100
pounds. That was a contract which had been in existence for some little time before
January of 1900. It expired at that time, and the question was as to the renewal of
it. Mr. Hall, representing the Eddy Company, was content to renew, but stated that
they would have to make an increase in price of about 10 per cent. Mr. Eoss says on
the second page of his testimony : ' They notified us on the expiry of the contract
that there would be an increase in the price, and their agent, Mr. Hall, stated that the
increase woidd be probably 10 per cent. That would raise the figure from $2.04 to
$2.24 or $2.25 per 100.' That statement was made, Mr. Eoss says, about the first week
or just the first week of February, 1900. Mr. Eobertson has verified the dates more
accurately and says it was on the 14th day of February, 1900. That, your Lordship
53— 12J

180 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

will notice is just one week before this combination was entered into. Now, at that
time, this Eddy Company is prepared to enter into a new contract at $2.24 or $2.25
per 100; the agreement going into force within one week from that date at the rate
of $2.50 ; and the inference, I claim, is irresistible ; the increase which they put on
the price was 25e. additional profit, was an undue enhancement of the price, because
of this combination amongst the manufacturers. They were not selling at $2.25 at a
loss; they were prepared to name a figure of 10 per cent increase upon their former
contract, as a sufficient increase to protect them from loss, insure them a reasonable
and proper price under the condition of things which then existed and within seven
days they were adding 25c. further to the price — an undue enhancement directly at-
tributable to this agreement which we complain of. They are then willing to renew at
$2.24. They are not willing a week later to carry out that offer, when it is
accepted by the Journal Printing Company and they put the reason for their refusal
simply and solely upon the fact that this agreement has been entered into.

Mr. Ross says, at page 17 of the testimony, .that the contract he had expiring with
them had been made at one year only in the previous year. They were then willing to
contract in the fall for one year's supply ; they did contract for one year's supply during
the year 1899 at the price of $2.04. Does anyone suppose that they were doing that at
a loss, that they were not making upon a living profit ?

Then because they complain that conditions of production had increased in ex-
pense, that they were not able to continue to contract at $2.04 and make a profit. They
were prepared in February of 1900 to make their contract at $2.24, but this agreement
or combination having been entered into, they had put the enhanced price, and to en-
hance it more unduly to the extent of 10 per cent they took the oportunity to refuse
to carry through an arrangement at $2.24. Mr. Ross describes what took place in that
respect. Mr. Robertson gave it a little more fully, but it will bear a repetition of the
two statements by the witnesses who spoke in regard to it. Mr. Ross says at page 2 :
' That upon their accepting this arrangement at $2.25 Mr. Eddy informed him that an
Association had been formed by the majority of the Canadian paper makers, who had
decided that the price of paper was to be $2.50. He said he was bound hard and fast
by the regulations of the Canadian Paper Makers' Association.' So that Mr. Eddy
stated this to be the result of the combination among the paper manufacturers, gives
that as his reason for not being willing to implement the offer that had been made by
his representatives only seven days before, and increases the price to correspond with
the regulations of the manufacturers. The control of the manufacturers over the seller
in that respect is demonstrated conclusively by the Exhibits which were produced by
Mr. Ross, P-1 and P-2. P-1 is a letter written by the Eddy Company to the Journal
Printing Company on the 5th of March, 1900, with reference to this contract, within
a fortnight, of course, after the association had been formed, tells the Journal Printing
Company that they will send an invoice, when ? ' As soon as the terms and prices
fixed upon by the Canadian Paper Makers' Association have been advised to us for this
paper product.' On the 10th of March they wrote, sending invoices and specifications,
and saying that this arrangement is subject, if you please, to the approval and confirm-
ation of the Paper Makers' Association. That, then, is the only way in which they
will, after this association is formed, enter into a contract; the only way in view of
the fact that they have bound themselves to their fellow manufacturers to live up to
thQ regulations of the Paper Makers' Association.

And that is an undue promoting, by reason of the arrangement of the large manu-
facturers at the expense of the consumers. Mr. Robertson's account of the matter
shows in detail, at page 95, how the price had gradually been reduced, how it had been
going down from 1897, when it was $2.65; 1896, $2.75; February, 1897, $2.65; June,
1897, $2.50; August, 1897, $2.35; August, 1898, $2..30, and in October, 1898, the Canada
Paper Company tendered for the Journal's supply at $2.00 a hundred pounds net cash,
and the Eddy Company, through their representative, tendered at $2.20, less 3 per cent.
Then the contract in question was entered into on the twenty-second of November at

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 181

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

$2.03 per 100 pounds net cash, and that contract expiring in January, 1900, the ques-
tion was as to the new contract to be entered into.

Now, that new contract he describes at page 96 was arranged under those circum-
stances : ' At the expiration of the contract the arrangement was not disturbed, and we
continued with the Eddy Company at the same price and terms up to February 14th,
when the Eddy Company's representative, Mr. Hall, called on the Journal, stating that
our contract had expired, as we were probably aware, and that the Eddy Company
would have to ask an increase in price. On being asked what the price would be, he
stated, an increase of 10 per cent, bringing the price up to $2.20 and $2.25, and that
we could obtain a contract for the year at that price if we wished.' They asked him
to call in two weeks' time, and on the twenty-second of February they accepted his
offer by a letter which is filed as Exhibit P-24, and then were informed that the offer
could not be implemented by the Eddy Company by reason solely of this association.
They point out another letter to the Eddy Company of the Yth of March, Exhibit P-25 :
' We trust that the fact that we accepted your offer in good faith, and that had it not
been for your arrangement with the Paper Makers' Association you would have
carried it ovit, and adding to this your often expressed desire to give us every assist-
ance, will permit of you giving us this price.' But the Eddy Company say it will
not do so, that they cannot break this agreement they have entered into with their
fellow manufacturers. Then Mr. Robertson says, after that arrangement was entered
into with Mr. Hall, — I read. from page 101 of the testimony : ' I saw Mr. Rowley and
Mr. Eddy together in their office. They stated that owing to the arrangement entered
into with the Paper Makers' Association, and seeing that the acceptance of their offer
did not reach them prior to this time, and that, in fact, so far as their firm was aware,
they had nothing to show that such an offer was made to us, they therefore were
compelled to repudiate any offer which their Mr. Hall might be considered to have
made.' Then reading from Mr. Robertson's testimony at page 101, he says that
he saw Mr. Rowley and Mr. Eddy together, that they told him that owing to this ar-
rangement of the Paper Makers' Association they were compelled to repudiate any offer
that Mr. Hall might have made. During the conversation Mr. Eddy stated that they
could not lay themselves open to the penalty which would be imposed by the Paper
Makers' Association for the violation of the agreement, and it was brought out that
that penalty was $1,000.' I might say that it appears in evidence that a penalty is
named of $1,000. This may be some prior arrangement, though, of course, under the
existing one the limit is $500. Mr. Eddy told him further on page 102, next page, —
' it was further stated by Mr. Eddy that there would be no way of covering up the fact
that our arrangement had not reached them prior to the formation of the Paper Manu-
facturers' Association.' So that this receipt being del.ayed, Mr. Eddy and Mr. Rowley,
upon the circumstance of this association being formed, were not in a position to carry
out the offer which, up to that time, they had expressed themselves, through their re-
presentative, as one on which they would be glad to enter into a new contract for
another yeai-'s supply of paper to that consumer.

At page 121 of Mr. Robertson's testimony this further occurs : He says that at the
time of the fire, which took place on the 26th April, 1900, the ruling price, he found,
was higher than $2.50 which had been fixed by the association, but at the time the
association was formed it was not so, because, he says, they had an offer at the time it
was formed at a lower rate, and that was jumped up because the Paper Makers' Asso-
ciation was formed.'

' Q. Are you prepared to make this statement, that it was purely because the
Paper Makers' Association was formed ? — A. Yes, sir; the Eddy Company told us
that they would be glad to make a contract with us, but they could not, on account
of the price of the Paper Makers' Association.'

Now, no more distinct statement could be made than that, which Mr. Eddy and
Mr. Rowley made to Mr. Robertson, that it is purely and solely by reason of this asso-
ciation that the price is increased to an extent of 10 per cent. They would be glad

182 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

to enter into a contract otherwise at $2.25, as they had offered to do seven days before.
But by reason of this association, and solely by reason of the formation of the asso-
ciation, that price is enhanced 10 per cent more, and I araiie nothing could be more
clear than that such enhancement is an undue enhancement, an undue advantage to
the manufacturer at the expense of the consumer, when we have the manufacturer him-
self stating that but for this association he would be perfectly content with a lower
price. Now, it is not any question of producing at a loss; it is not any question of
there being no profit in the lower price, because we have the manufacturer by his silence
concede, by his omitting to make any explanation or answer to this testimony. We
have him concede that whereas he would be glad to have entered into a contract at a
lower price, he now, solely by reason of this association, takes advantage of this asso-
ciation and gets a large, undue enhancing in the price. I press upon this fact, your
lordship, that this evidence having been before counsel on the other side, that if they
desired to refute it, Mr. Eddy is not called at all ; Mr. Rowley is, and he is not asked
one word by way of answer to that testimony, and it stands uncontradicted, that they
were willing and glad to have entered into a contract at a lower price, and then within
one week say that they could not carry out that price, simply and solely because of the
formation of this association.

Now, the position of other companies as affected by this association is also very
distinctly shown by the testimony of Mr. Robertson. He says that upon the fire
taking place, that prior to the fire taking place, he says at page 107 of his testimony,
that while these negotiations were going on with the Eddy Company, at the end of
February, and during the first few days in March, 1900, he was trying to see if he
could not get a supply elsewhere in Canada. He says he tried the Canada Paper
Company, the Riordan's, I believe also the Dominion Paper Company. ' Each of them
regretted that they could not see their way clear to take us on, though previously they
had been looking for our business. The Canada Paper Company had tendered for our
supply just previous to that. When I called, I saw Mr. MacFarlane, the manager.
The tender that had been made a year previously was $2.00. Then we went to the
Canada Company in the first few days of March and saw Mr. MacFarlane, and he
gave us the reason that was given to him.'

At page 109, he says : ' At the Dominion Paper Company, the conversation was
of a similar character, ' that they had no paper to spare.' So that the result of enter-
ing into this agreement by the different manufacturers is at once demonstrated, where-
as immediately before it Mr. MacFarlane had been tendering for the supply of paper,
had been tendering a year before at $2.00, while he now occupies the position of
regretting that he cannot see his way to take them on, though previously he had been
looking for the business.

Now, what caused that alteration in the position of matters, to the advantage of
the manufacturers at the expense of the consumers ? Nothing but the agreement in
question. And if that alteration is an undue advantage to the manufacturer at the
expense of the consumer, it is distinctly in the statute.

Then other reasons we offer to your lordship are equally significant. With refer-
ence to the experience of Mr. Tarte, as detailed in his testimony at the opening of his
evidence, page 2 of the reporter's paging. He says : ' That before April of 1900,
during the last three or four years prices had been going down steadily. ' I have been
buying in my office,' he says, ' quantities at prices from $1.70 to $1.85, hardly over 2c.'
Then in April, when these mills were burnt he was then getting his paper at a trifle
below 2c. delivered in any quantity, less 5 per cent, 30 days or four months, but im-
mediately upon their being necessity that he should get paper from other consumers,
after the effect of this agreement had had its full force, he was unable to get it in any
place less than $.3.00 a hundred. He describes at page 18 in the opening of his cross-
examination by Mr. White, the position of things prior to the agreement. ' I was pay-
ing $2.05 less 5 per cent, 30 days or four months, less, I think, $1,200 or $1,500 for
some other considerations, which we deducted off the total amount of paper I bought
during the year.'

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 183

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

That contract was with the Eddy Company from whom he had been buying- for
years. He had been paying less than that before. That particular contract had been
in force for about two years. He says on page 19 : 'I bought as low as $1.70. When
that contract was going on, I had bought paper, carloads of paper now and then from
different mills at various prices from $1.70, $1.80, as far as I remember, to $2.15.'
At page 4 of his evidence, he says : ' In January, 1900, we bought paper at prices be-
low 2c. and I found out I could have bought for all the money I could have got in the
Bank of Montreal below two cents. When I came to get paper from the mills, I was
informed that the paper makers had joined into an association and that the price
per carload for my paper would be $2.50.'

Then that being his experience, some increase did take place in the price by reason
of this combination. Compare it with that of other witnesses, as I have said, at widely
separate points of the country. Mr. Preston, of Brantford, describes in his evidence
in Toronto at page 24 of the record, that he had a contract with the Canada Paper
Company at $3.10 per 100 in the ream. In the month of December or thereabouts,
1899, not certain of the date, there was an advance made to $2.20. ' That was, I think,
before the Association was formed, and that carried me through until quite recently.'
That was, he says, both for reams and rolls. That was a price of $2.20 with 4 per cent
off. But immediately after the combination was entered into, that price of $2.20, 4
per cent deduction, was made $2.50 for rolls and $2.75 in the reams.

Now, there is no evidence of any corresponding increase in the cost of production.
Here, this man is buying from the Canada Paper Company, paper in reams at $2.20
with a discount of 4 per cent, and it is immediately hoisted to $2.75. Is there any
corresponding increase in the cost of production ? Certainly not. None is pretended.
Is it pretended that they were making those sales at $2.20 at an actual loss ? There
is no evidence of it. The manager of the Canada Paper Company, with that evidence
before him goes into the box, and says not a word about it, confines himself to the.
wide general effect, that free trade would have on the country; talks about reasons
for supposing that this combination has had the effect of reducing prices rather than
of keeping them up, and never says one word in answer to the finished evidence he
was called upon to give, if it could be met; that whereas he had by his company im-
mediately prior to this combination, gladly and contentedly supplied the consumer
for $2.20 he now insists on being paid $2.75.

Mr. Dingman, the proprietor of a newspaper in Stratford, gave his experience at
page 41 to 45 of his evidence: The prices we had been paying for news print just
before the combine came into operation was 2Jc., or $2.25 per 100 pounds, delivered
at Stratford. The effect afterwards \\»s to raise the price at first to three cents, and
subsequently to $2.75 — two and three-quarter cents with a discrimination against us
in the matter of freight delivery. I investigated the alternative of buying paper from
the other side, and found that paper could be purchased over there at two quotations,
one at 2Jc., and the other $2.15, which, with the duty and freight paid, would deliver
the paper at Stratford at a trifle under combine prices, with a discrimination in the
matter of freight added.' He describes the price from Niagara Falls, N.Y. The price
of paper there was $2.12J with a duty of 54e., freight 12c., making a total of $2.78J
per hundred pounds as compared with about $2.85 under the combine regulation. So
that there was little advantage in favour of the foreign manufacturer of paper as a
direct result of the combine that was entered into here. His statement to your lord-
ship is, that that price of $2.25 which he was paying prior to the combine, was with
a discount of 3 per cent. Then it is immediately increased from that figure to $2.75
with a discrimination in the matter of freight of 10c. additional, or $2.85. Then Mr.
Atkinson, of the Toronto Star, describes his position. At page 75 of the testimony,
he says that in the year 1900, in January, his contract expiring, he was making a new
contract and that contract, he says, ' I closed hurriedly because I was told the asso-
ciation was in process of formation, and the contract was for one year at a renewal
of the terms of the then expiring contract, like the one of the Ottawa Journal Print-

184 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

ing Company, was immediately preceding the formation of the Association. He was
perfectly content to enter into a contract at $2.23 at that time for exactly the com-
modity which they were paying a price of $2.50 forthwith on the combination being
formed. The effect is certainly an enhancement of the price, which, under the cir-
cumstances must be considereed undue.

And then Mr. Atkinson describes at page 85 of the testimony, that $2.23
was not at all the lowest price in Canada. ' I did not get the best price. There were
prices much lower than that, within a couple of months' time, so that the $2.23 is
not to be taken as a low water mark for non-association prices.'

Then Mr. Stephenson, of the Chatham Planet, comparing the former contract
with the present one, tells us on page 87 ' that his contract expired in the early part
of 1900.' He was at that time paying $2.10 delivered. That was for paper in sheets :
at the expiration of it, he was immediately obliged to pay $2.Y5, with freight in addi-
tion. That, he found by correspondence, which he produced to the court was the price
he had ever.ywhere to pay, and that there was in that way an immediate increase from
$2.10 to $2.Y5, an increase of 65c. or practically of 30 per cent iipon the cost of the
paper to him, without any evidence of a corresponding increase at that time in the
cost of production.

Now, that effect of the association on prices is not limited in any way to the
actual signatories of the agreement or combination. The Laurentide Pulp Company
has been spoken of repeatedly as one not in the combine, but that Company, although
it may not practically have been in the combination as far as paying its money is con-
cerned, has, according to the testimony at any rate, taken to itself all the advantage
of the association, and made a similar disadvantage to the consumer. That com-
pany is not the one which supplied Mr. Graham,- — I thought for the moment it was, —
but Mr. Graham's supply being drawn from the Canada Paper Company, I ought to
refer to what he has told us this morning in connection with matters I have been
discussing before leaving that for the present. If Mr. Graham is being supplied, he
tells us at $1.90 for a large amount of paper by the Canada Paper Company, is it
not manifest that that is the price, which at the time of entering into the contract at
any rate, was one that the company could afford to make ? Mr. Graham tells us with
manifest disinclination to give any evidence, it would assist the fellow consumers who
are not in so fortunate position as he, with a manifest willingness to protect, so far
as the truth will protect, the interests of the manufacturer with whom he has made
his contract; that even they did not at the time at all pretend there was any loss
in the contract they were entering into. We have Mr. MacFarlane's testimony on
the same subject, as I pointed out, when Mr. Graham was in the box, the subject
having been gone into on the examination of Mr. Hardy, Mr. Hardy not being in
position to testify in regard to it; Mr. MacFarlane's examination some three or four
weeks later, and knowing this contract was in possession of the counsel upon our
side of the inquiry, seeks to explain, and describes in his evidence how the par-
ticular contract, which I presume is the one spoken of, was entered into at a Very
low figure. But Mr. ]\IacFarlane himself does not pretend to say any more than he or
any of the officials pretended to say to Mr. Graham, that at the time he entered into
that contract, it was being entered into at any loss. At that time they simply took it
as established that the conditions of the trade were such that they could afford to sell
at $1.90 and still make a living profit. Now, is there the slightest evidence before the
court that between April and May of 1900 and February of 1901, in that period of
ten rmonths there had been any increase in the cost of manufacture, any increase in
the cost of raw material, that would justify an increase in the selling price of paper
60 cents where it had been $1.90 before ? Is there any pretence for saying that there
had been an increase of over 30 per cent, in the cost of raw material or in the cost of
production ? I submit there is not, and I urge on that circumstance, coupled with the
other circumstances that I have referred to, that the strong effect of this association
is not merely to enhance the price but to enhance it unduly, to enhance it at the expense

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE _ 185

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

of the consumer unduly to at least an extent which the consumer is, by this combina-
tion, forced to pay.

Now, referring, as I was when I digressed to speak of Mr. Graham's evidence, to
the effect of this association and the disadvantages of it; see what the testimony is
with regard to the Laurentide Pulp Company and the advantage they took of it, owing
to the fact that this association exists.

Mr. Ross tells us at the opening of his evidence, on page 15, that talking to Mr.
Alger, the managing director of that Company, he remarked that his price must be
$2.50, which was the price of the association. His price must be that, that being the
price of the association. He is spoken of again in the testimony of Mr. Robertson in
the same lines at page 115 and following pages, 115, 116, IIY. ' As late as December,
1900,' Mr. Robertson says, ' we had been approached by that company, by their repre-
sentative, Mr. Gascoigne, wishing to know if we were at liberty to naake a contract.
When I told Mr. Gascoigne we were at liberty to make a contract if he desired, he
wanted to know if the prices would not interest us. I asked him whether the price
would be different from that of the Canadian Paper Makers' Association. He said he
could make a price different from the association, the reason being they were not
members.' Then he said further : ' Mr. Alger has been approached several times to
enter the Paper Makers' Assosciation, but has not as yet joined, but I think he will
join shortly.' Then Mr. Robertson did not close with Mr. Gascoigne at that time,
but asked him after whether he did not join the Paper Makers' Association whether the
price would go up. The price did not go up but became cheaper in fact, as the circula-
tino of the papers was falling off, and he said : ' No, if they join th^v would require
to hold to the arrangement, that there was a fine imposed for not holding to the
agreement.' And he said : ' Of course, if the Laurentide joined they would not be
bothered by the fine; that they would want to live up to the rules of the Paper
Makers' Association. Finally, at the end of January, when we broke with the Rior-
dan people, because they let us run short on two occasions, and we had not paper, we
entered into correspondence with the Laurentide ,and as a result made a contract, and
of course this contract had to be at the Paper Makers' price, because they were then
members of the association.'

Now, see what we have. The evidence of Mr. Hardy is to-day that this company
has not, never has been in the association, but they know the tariff of prices of the
association. They took to themselves all the advantages of the Manufacturers' Asso-
ciation. They put all the disadvantage upon the consumer upon the excuse that they
are going to join, sheltering themselves behind the association, claiming that they are
bound by the regulations of the association afterwards, because they have joined.
So that this insidious effect on the manufacturer is in no way limited to those who
have entered into the combination themselves, but it affects those who have not paid
the penalty, just an excuse to take that much more out of the consumer, because they
have the opportunity. And the association therefore has enhanced the price, and en-
hanced it unduly at the expense of the consumer, not merely for the benefit of those
who have entered into the association, but generally for the benefit of manufacturers
in whose interest it has been formed.

Then the same thing took place with regard to Mr. Forde, of Portneuf, though
not spoken of otherwise in the testimony, is stated by Mr. Robertson to have taken
the same position exactly. At page 11.3 of Mr. Robertson's testimony, he says : ' After
the Eddy fire we telegraphed most of the paper manufacturers, and they did not care
to take us on. Forde & Company, of Portneuf. said they would come to see us. The
senior member came to see us after the fire. He said they had been making wall paper
and he stated his machines were fitted up to make No. 3 news, and he said he would
switch over to No. 3, as there might be a scarcity of No. 3 in the country and he could
make money on it. I asked him what his terms would be. He shrugged his shoulders
and he said : ' Of course they have to be the terms of the Paper Makers' Associa-
tion.'

186 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Then it is well demonstrated by the facts in evidence, and the necessary inference
to be drawn from them, that there is a perfectly good understanding between the large
combination of the manufacturers in the United States and the dealeis in this coum.i^.
No actual written agreement; it may be possible no actual verbal agreement, but a
perfectly good understanding between the two that neither will invade th^ territory
of the other, and that they will, for their mutual advantage, bind together to keep up
the prices to the detriment of the consumer. That understanding is evidenced by more
than one incident that is deposed here. As Mr. Tarte tells us at page 7 of his testi-
mony : He telegraphed after the Eddy fire to several American newspapers. ' I sent
representatives to see them. I was answered by some of them, by the International
Paper Company, by the Otis Falls Mills, and one or two other of the largest paper
manufacturers in the United States or through New England, that if T wanted to do
business, I had to go to the Laurentide, that they were affiliated with them, that there
was an association of paper makers, and if I wanted paper they would get it for me.'
Then further in his cross-examination at page 24 : 'I telegraphed to some of the paper
mills and their answer did not come from them; their answers came from the Cana-
dian mills here, the Laurentide. I telegraphed to New York International Paper, and
instead of coming from New York, the answer came from Grand Mere the next day,
or from Montreal, or from Ottawa, I think.'

Then, when he was recalled on the 4th July at page 112 of his testimony, he says,
to Mr. White: 'I said the International was to supply us; when it was time to give
us quotations, they answered me back that they knew the Laurentide was ready to
take my order.' Mr. Robertson had an experience of precisely the same sort in Ottawa.
He described how, when they were in straits for paper at the end of January, 1901,
page 117 : ' We wrote three times to the International asking them, because all these
mills directed us to the International, but we got no reply in answer to the three let-
ters we wrote them.' He saj-s : ' This was at the time of the fire, in April, 1900. We
tried to get paper from American manufacturers. We wrote several. We could not
get any reply. That would indicate that I could not get paper over there. We wrote
two firms in Watertown, which afterwards apparently turned out to be controlled by
the International. We wrote three times to the International asking them, because
all three mills directed us to the International, but we got no reply in answer to the
three letters we wrote them. I mentioned this to Mr. Alger once, and the only reply
I got from him was a smile. I asked him the significance of the smile, and he said
they would not come into Canadian territory, and it did not bother the Laurentide
Company at that time -because they were shipping almost exclusively to the British
market.'

Now, in New York, Mr. Spicer, a man in authority, was called as a witness by my
learned friend. He is the manager of the Export News Division of that tremendous
organization, and he describes to my learned friend the reason for this incident that
Mr. Tarte speaks of. He says : ' That gentleman came to me saying he had a friend
in Montreal desirous of purchasing some paper; he asked me would I communicate
with him. Prior to writing the letter, the Eddy fire had taken place in Ottawa; an
offer had been made by the Laurentide to secure some of the business, and in talking
about their success in securing this business, they named various publishers with
whom they had made contracts, and after my contract with Mr. Ridder, after looking
over the list I found the gentleman he spoke of was in the list.' This is at page 221
of Mr. Spicer's testimony.

Mr. Tarte, in his eft'ort to get paper at that time, is getting his friend Mr. Ridder
to see if he could get it from the International. The International, by Mr. Spicer, the
manager of the Export News Division is in conversation with the representative of the
Laurentide people. That representative tells him of his business affairs, of his success
in securing business, and names among other publishers, with whom they have made
arrangements, Mr. Tarte, or Mr. Tarte's paper. Before answering J>tr. Tarte's agent
or representative, Mr. Spicer, the manager of that division of the International, looks

MINUTES OF EVIBENCE 187

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

over this list, and seeing that Mr. Tarte's name is among those with whom the
Laurentide are engaging, he replies to Mr. Tarte, ' Get your paper there.'

No clearer evidence, I submit of at least an understanding of that, which one
of the New York witnesses very felicitiously characterized as a ' gentlemen's agree-
ment ' between the paper makers, could exist, than the evidence of this instance, and
the fact that in Mr. Tarte's evidence, he is forced to obtain paper from foreign coun-
tries at a cheaper price. He is simply referred by that gigantic organization there to
this very company here and left to the mercy of manufacturers, who put the par-
ticulars before the consumer as an excuse for thus increasing their prices.

Kecess.

I intend in the next place, my lord, to speak of such evidence as we have with
regard to the actual cost of manufacture. Now, as to that, I premise that probably
no point that could arise in an investigation of this sort could be of greater practical
importance ; the whole gist of the inquiry being whether the prices which have been
established by this organization are prices which mean an undue profit to the manu-
facturer. The most important element for consideration must be the actual cost of
production. Now, that was a subject on which it is manifest from the nature and
interest of the case, that it was impossible for those whom I am representing here,
to afford your lordship any accurate information. We can give you facts from which
you may infer that business men would not sell at a price which wijuld not be somie
measurable distance in advance of actual cost of production, but from the nature of
the case it is impossible that on our side of the investigation we can assist the court
by accurate evidence of cost of production. Not so with our friends, the adversary.
They have that knowledge within their own breasts. Anyone of these gentlemen who
are so vitally interested in the inquiry which the government has here set on foot,
could, if they pleased, have afforded to your lordship accurate, definite information
from their books to show cost of production, and from which your lordshi() could have
compared cost of production with cost to consumer, and have deduced at once an
answer to the vital inquiry, whether or not the present prices are unduly large.

Now, that being the case, it is a matter of comment, a matter upon which I desire to
comment with such emphasis as I am able, that no one of the witnesses wlio have gone
into the box on behalf of the Paper Makers' Association has given us any evidence
of any value as to the cost of production. No one at all has spoken of it with the
single exception of Mr. Barber. Some have, as I should show your lordship, refused
to give information, have deliberately disadvantaged, withheld from the court that
which would be of so much importance if it had been disclosed. But, witli the excep-
tion of Mr. Barber no one has spoken directly, and with regard to Mr. Barber's testi-
mony I have many observations that occur to me to make, some of whicli I will try
and present as showing an extraordinary thing, that he of all men, should have been
the one selected to testify upon that point. We had, as your lordship will see from
one passage at any rate, if not from more, in the evidence of Mr. Tarto, a word or
two of indirect testimony as to expense of production; all that we could and that was
all that stood before the court when Mr. Barber went into the box. Mr. Tarte says at
■ page 15 of the evidence, given by him on the first meeting of the commission at the
foot of the page, that he had been in discussion in this respect witli the McArthur
house of Joiiette, and this is what he says took place : ' A very important manufac-
turer told me some time ago, in Montreal, in the presence of one of his employees that
he was under control, that he made a deposit^I cannot say whether it is three or
five hundred dollars, but that he could not, under any circumstances, sell me paper
below the ordinary prices, but that he was very anxious to get my business, and if I
could suggest some way for him to get out of it, to tell it to him, and T said: Since

188 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

one year I have been doing all kinds of things and he suggested to me that he should
make lis a reduction, and giving some advertising in the columns of La Patrie to
compensate the difference in the price, and he told me that his paper was costing him
something below two cents; it was costing him a little dearer than before, because
not having the pulp, some of the big mills were trying to keep him down, but, however,
if he was allowed by the association he would think of certain things and he would
get out of the association to take my business.' He was pressed to say who it was,
and he finally said it was the McArthur house of Joliette — ' and he told me he would
consult the association.' So there was a piece of testimony in our favour, that that
gentleman had told Mr. Tarte that the actual cost of paper to him was a little under
2c.; something below 2e.

Now, that being all the evidence there was upon the point, and that being given
on the 28th of May; on the 3rd July Mr. Barber attends, coming a distance of about
400 miles to Montreal to give testimony, as the first witness called by the Manufact-
urers' Association in this matter. He comes with a statement prepared, of the cost
to him of producing 100 pounds of paper in the different years, — 1898, 1899 and 1900
to the present time. Now I do not wish to be understood for a moment, — I do not wish
to be misunderstood, and do not wish to be understood for a moment as suggesting that
Mr. Barber is not a gentleman who would tell truthfully everything that he stated in
the witness box. I am not imputing anything of the sort, in the nature of misrepre-
sentation to him, and don't wish to be so understood. But I point out how unsatisfac-
tory evidence of that sort necessarily must be, when it takes the shape, as Mr. Barber's
statement does, of assigning to the cost of producing 100 pounds of paper so many
cents, not in fractions of a cent at all, but so many cents for wages, so many cents for
coal, so many cents for cartage, for felt, for wires, for repairs, for general expenses,
aggregating as he does in the year 1898 $1.94; in 1899, 3 cents and a fraction less; in
the following years $2.00 and some cents in each case. That, I submit, is a most un-
satisfactory kind of statement. Mr. Barber says he made it from his own private mem-
orandum. It may be from his general boolis in this sense, and his general books would
perhaps not show the whole of these details, although they would necessarily show the
volume, the general nature of his business. But he assigns upon his calculation, a
round figure, so and so, 20 cents to the hundred pounds ; wages, 15 cents ; coal, 10 cents ;
and other figures in the same way; not in all cases round figures, but in nearly every
instance even figures. Now is that at all satisfactory ? I urge that it is not. I urge
that we are entitled to have, if Mr, Barber could give it, what the cost of production
was with him, — better evidence than that, the evidence of his books themselves, which
might have been submitted to the examination of an accountant upon our part, who
would show us what amount of profit upon his manufacture Mr. Barber was making,
how much upon those books year by year, the average cost of producing 100 pounds
of paper was, what the production was, compared with the price. It would have been
just as easy for him to give us a statement of that sort, for him to put us in a position
to have checked his figures. These figures it is perfectly impossible to check. For these
figures we have to take our confidence in Mr. Barber's statement, which is no better
in any respect, in that regard, than if Mr. Barber had contented himself with saying
in the witness box, without producing any statement at all : " I have estimated, and I
say that paper costs me to manufacture ' this amount,' " that he mentions. Now. I call
particular attention to that, because the gentlemen who were in a position to speak accur-
ately were gentlemen of this city, Mr. McFarlane and Mr. Gilean of the Canada Paper
Company, Senator EoUand, and Mr. Rowley of the Eddy Company. Not one hint is
given by any of them as to the cost of production. It is a most significant circumstance
when we find information of that value necessarily within their knowledge and not
given to the Court. It is of peculiar importance for this reason : That Mr. Barber occu-
pies a position of disadvantage in manufactory. Every witness who is called tells
us that the men who are making the big money under present prices are the men who
produce their own sulphite, their own pulp, and who are now charging high rates be-

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 189

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

cause there are so few of them in the country, because they are able to charge scarcity,
starvation prices, and to exact them from their less fortunate brother manufacturers.
Everyone tells us it is they who are making the large profits on the manufacture of
paper to-day. Mr. Barber is not in that position. Mr. Barber has to buy, and possibly
for that very reason it is Mr. Barber who alone ventures to tell us anything as to the
cost of production to him. Now, Mr. Barber is unwilling to name, as your Lordship
will not fail to notice, any minimum price as that at which paper can be manufactured
with a profit. I pressed him to do so. On page 12 of his cross-examination I asked
him the statement, how low he would put the lowest price at which under the most
favourable conditions, prior to this agreement of 1900, paper, news print, could be sold
and yet realize to the manufacturer a profit. That he won't state. ' You are asking me
a question that I don't think I should answer, because I am not in the secrets of either
of those large mills that make paper for export as well as for home trade.' I pointed
out to him that he should be thoroughly cognizant with the secrets of the business. He
says : ' I know what it costs me to make my paper. I buy my own sulphite, my coal,
and my ground wood. There are mills in Canada who do not do these things.'

Now, if we had Mr. Rowley who represents a company who manufacture their own
materials, we should have had the evidence of a man who could say, what under these
circumstances would have been the cost of manufacturing. I think we could show a
much lower price than could Mr. Barber, buying these commodities. Mr. Barber says
$1.94 was the price; then he is purchasing powder, and buying his raw material, he
can manufacture, but whether or not at a figure paper could be made and sold at a
profit he is not willing to state. In that connection it is not merely significant, it
is important to notice the testimony of Senator RoUand at pages 117-118. He says
there : ' It is only mills who have their supply of ground wood and chemical pulp that
can manufacture newspaper at a paying price. Our having to buy these from the
manufacturer, we cannot make it pay even at the prices fixed by the market. And for
that reason, because he has to pay to the producer of sulphite and gi'ound wood, so
large a price, he goes out of the manufacture of news print paper. Mr. Barber has
not wholly gone out of it, but Mr. Barber manufactures in a small way. He tells us
60. He goes out of it so far as he can. He devotes himself to other lines of trade,
just because having to pay these large prices for raw material, he cannot compete with
those other mills in the manufacture of news print at a profit. His capital invested,
only something under $200,000 at the outside, is, as Mr. MacFarlane places it, a very
small capital comparatively, not anything like the cost of one of the mills of the Canada
Paper Company, or anything like the cost or the amount of capital that would be in-
vested in a concern that was of large character, that was turning out news print for a
profit, and was in a position to manufacture it economically. Then that being th(>
secret of the thing, that being the point of the matter where, as Senator Rollaud says,
great profit is in the sulphite and in the ground wood, that those three or four manu-
facturers who make their own, charge the others who have to buy it from them. There
is the excuse that is put forward for the high price that is made since this combina-
tion of manufacturers, for those articles of raw material. Mr. Rowley is called to
explain that. If you will, that is the whole object with which he is put into the box.
He represented the Eddy Company, one of the fortunate three or four who manu-
facture the sulphite and the ground wood. And he seems to put it in his evidence
in chief, as the result of providential considerations. Low water, and the absence of
snow in the woods during the winter, 'and other considerations of that character are
attributed to the increased cost of production. But when he comes to be examined;
when he speaks first, one would have thought, to hear it, that the very stars in their
courses fought against the people who were endeavoring to produce this commodity
for the paper manufacturers. When one looks into his cross-examination it simply
comes to this, that there being a time when the supply fell short of the demand,
those who had the supply took advantage of the situation to put up the prices. No
pretence that the cost of production was increased, the cost of production remained

190 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

as before. But there was a time when the increased demand for paper .caused by the
wars spoken of enabled them to charge a higher price for the amount that they had on
hand, and they promptly took advantage of the circumstances. That your lordship
will find detailed by Mr. Rowley on page 132. He describes how they had no snow in
their part of the country, and no frost. ' In the early part of the season, as a con-
sequence, the output of logs was limited up to Christmas. Then there was a mild
winter; a small quantity of wood comparatively was made before Christmas. After
Christmas there were exceptionally heavy snow storms which prevented the laying up
of the wood; then the snow went away very quickly in the spring; instead of rushing
down, as usual, it dried up very quickly, and the result was, that about one-third of
their drive was stranded.' Well, now, that all took place as long ago as 1898. However,
he says it was repeated in 1899 and 1900, and that one-third of their drive which was
stranded in the first year of low water was not lost at all ; that one-third of the drive
came forward the next year, with such freshets Ms there were, and the result is, that it
is simply delayed twelve months in reaching the manufactory. It comes on in due
course, and so coming on, though stranded temporarily, that material stands ready
for production, and to put the whole thing into a nutshell, he says, on page 137 : ' The
result of all these things was, great difficulty in getting out these logs, getting one-
third of them lost, owing to all these conditions ' that were special in these two sea-
sons. Now, that being the result — shortage of supply, a like condition applied to all
manufacturers whose shanties were on the Ottawa and its tributaries. What happen-
ed ? Those conditions prevailing, they were short 25 per cent or 30 per cent in their
supply, and the result was, that those who had the opportunity took advantage of
conditions to hoist the market price. ' I tell you for your satisfaction that we have
had $42 net cash for our fibre at the mills, &c.' Well now, that is no incieas; in
the actual cost of production. It is simply the paper manufacturers taking advantage
of the opportunity to hoist the price to those he sells to. For himself it costs him no
more to get a smaller quantity of material. It costs him no more per thousand feet
than it did before; wages have not increased, the cost of wood has not increased,
but it is simply an opportunity to exact more from the men who must have that com-
modity, and to whom he sells.

So that the first and main element in the attempted explanation of the increase in
the price of pulj) wood and sulphite, they have failed to explain. What other particu-
lars are put forward ? That sulphur was contraband of war, and it was very difficult
to obtain, and suljjhur was, of course, a thing they had to buy. Now, we were rather
surprised to hear Mr. Rowley put forward such a consideration as this. It was anal-
ogous, if I might say so, to Mr. MacFarlane speaking of soda fibre, that his mill used,
putting forward an increased cost of bleaching powder. When he came to be cross-
examined about it, your lordship will find he finally said the cost of bleaching powder
is but a bagatelle, and cuts 'no figure in the actual cost of producing paper. Now, in
the same way that Mr. Rowley put forward the consideration in a strong way, that
the sulphur was contraband of war ; when we came to examine into it, by the evidence
of a man who knows, we find that that commodity, too, is of such trifling importance
that it cuts no figure. In the evidence taken in New York of Mr. Dillon, of the Great
Northern Paper Company, he being, as he describes to us, the vice-president of the
Great Northern, and for a number of years connected with the manufacture of paper in
the United States, under examination as to the extent to which t;he cost of sulphur en-
ters in the manufacture of paper, tells us at page 216, after considerable examination
about it, that while it would bear some proportion, it would bear no large proportion ; and
finally asked what proportion of the cost of making paper would be attributable to the
cost of sulphur : ' I would not consider it an important item, but I might add that the
clothing of the sulphite mill and every other article increased in cost.' So that the
reasons put forward by Mr. Rowley called for no other purpose than tn justify the
reasons Mr. Barber had spoken of, as to the cost of fibre, sulphite and ground wood,
seem to fall altogether to the ground. There has not been any such increased cost, as

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 191

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

as is evident enough by the evidence given by Mr. Spicer, of the International Company,
when examined in New York. He was the man who was last of all in New York, and
who was frequently alluded to before going into the box as the man who could testify
about all these matters. Mr. Spicer, representing the International Company, as I
said, the manager of one great division of their business, was assumed 'to be perhaps
better than any other witness who had been sworn upon this inquiry, in a position to
state accurately such things as we were interested in materially and particularly in
knowing. Your lordship will remember from the evidence as disclosed as to the posi-
tion of that huge organization, the International of the United States. Formed some
two years ago, and absorbing practically the whole output of the Eastern or New Eng-
land States, as they then existed, with a capital of some $55,000,000 and in a position
not merely to control, but to monopolise , the whole manuf actui'ing trad ■
of the Eastern and Northern States. As witnesses, who were examined
in New York testified, what we could see without evidence, that the whole
trade in paper in that section of the United States is practically limited
to the mills of New England and New York, simply because the freight
from the west, especially from mills west of the Mississippi, would be pro-
hibitive upon production and competition. No supply practically for the New York
markets, or for the consumers of the New England States is drawn from any point west
of the Alleghanies. And throughout the, section of territory, the New England States
and New York, the International is the firm practically monopolising the whole of the
output of these States. It was so large in its operations, as witnesses testified, that it
even controlled from 75 to 80 per cent of the total outpvit of the United States. It now
produces from its various mills, some thirty or more in number, fifteen hundred tons
per day, and the only competing company is the Great Northern, which went into
operation some twelve months ago, and which is now turning out two hundred and
seventy-five tons a day. These constitute between them nearly the whole, comparatively,
of the output of the United States. The total output being slightly over 2,000 tons per
day, these two companies between them actually contributing to that total output of
2,000, or contributing an amount of over 1,775 tons.

Now, Mr. Spicer spoke then with authority, as the representative of that large
organization, went into the witness box in that position, one would presume to tell us
accurately something definite as to the cost of production. •

I invite your lordship's attention to his cross-examination upon that paint. He
was asked nothing about it in chief. At page 232 and the following two pages, your
lordship will find the efforts that I made to induce him to state something that would
be accurate and definite upon that very important point. He had testified as to a
transaction in which he had actually sold to a consumer in Canada, paper at the rate
of $2.00 a 100 lbs. f.o.b. at the mills. I asked him what figure he could have afforded
to give the consumer on that sale and make a living profit. He answers : ' I would
not answer your question of that kind. It is a subject a good many people are in-
terested in, to know what we can afford to make paper for, and I would suggest that
the best means of obtaining that information is, to become a paper manufacturer.'
A distinct definite statement that he declines to answer. Aski^d at what figure he
could have afforded to sell and yet make a living profit, we have the refusal to say. I
pressed my answer and I said : ' Is that a question you prefer not to answer ? ' " 1
don't thinli it is a fair question,' he said. I put the question to him again. ' Assuming
that I go with you to that very consumer with a proposition such as I mention, to take
ten tons, say, for a year, could you have afforded to reduce the price of the material
below 2c. a pound ? ' ' A. I don't think it is possible to answer the question without
having the firm offer in hand.'

' Q. You would not like to answer that question upon any other basis; you would
like to see the offer in writing ? — A. No, sir; we might want more.

' Q. Well, I would like to press the question to this extent ? — A. As to what
we could make an offer at ? I don't regard that a proper question for an answer.

192 ROYAL COMMISSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

' Q. Will you answer me or will you decline to answer. It is entirely at your op-
tion ? ' He replies : ' I want to treat you fairly.'

I asked him the price at which he could afford to make it. He says : '' At what
price we could afford to make it ? ' I say : ' Yes ? ' He says : ' I think it would be
impossible to give you an answer based upon assuming conditions that don't exist.'

' Q. If I go to you with an offer of 10 tons a day for a year's consumption, of the
quality of paper that you sold to the Canadian consumer during the present year for
2c. a pound, to take from you ten tons a day, could you afford to let me have it at
$1.90 and under ? — A. There is no evidence that there is any such customer of paper
in Canada.' I asked again : ' In other words, you would not tell me what it costs you
to make a hundred pounds of paper ? — A. Most certainly not.'

There, at all events, is a distinct withholding of information by a gentleman in
a position to know, by a gentleman qualified to state, by a gentleman called by the
Manufacturers' Association to assist their case before your Lordship. It is not assist-
ing the court. It is deliberately withliolding from the court the information which
would make this report a report based upon facts, and a report upon which the whole
conununity, the whole manufacturing and consuming community of the country could
with confidence rely.

Xow, necessarily, from our position beographically and politically, the price of
this commodity as of any other commodity in open market in this country, must be
more or less affected by the price and the corresponding conditions of a like commodity
in the United States, and accordingly there has been considerable evidence at early
stages of the inquiry, with regard to the prices in the United States.

Now, with reference to those prices which particularly formed the subject of the
evidence which was adduced from those manufacturers in New York City, let me
premise this : That with so large a proportion of the output in those States controlled
by the International Company, with practically the whole of that output now in the
hands of the International and the Great Northern — I speak of course, of the area
of consumption limited by the New England and North-eastern States; with that
position of matters existing there is no real competition. There is nothing e'se than
practically a close corporation, than the most practical possible combination, and the
most effective control upon prices at the hands of the Great Northern Company. But
more than that, we have in this evidence taken in New York, the most important
statement, not perhaps accidentally made, but casually stated, by a gentleman who
has felt the effect of it, and who states what they are struggling against in the United
States. Mr. Duffy, a dealer in New York, not a manufacturer, a member of a large
firm of wholesale and retail dealers in paper, is under examination, and this is what
appears at page 189 of his testimony.

' Do you know,' Mr. White asks him, ' any minimum price fixed by manufacturers
in the States, any association of mills here ?'

' A. No, I have no personal knowledge of that. I have heard of a gentleman's
agreement, so called, but that was done with a view of making people like ourselves
pay a good price. In fact it was aimed at us, in my judgment, more than it was at the
publisher.' Now, I do not care at all whom it was aimed at. What is it but an uudrr-
standing existing among a few manufacturers, which, whether it is called a ' gentle-
man's agreement,' which, whether it is preserved under the sanction merely of honor
among themselves, or under, what Mr. Woodruff designated here as a more effective
sanction, a money penalty, is a combination, an agreement, an association, whether
among a dozen or between two, by which tlie price to the buyer will be maintained at a
figure higher than otherwise it would be.

Mr. Duffy, a purchaser, Mr. Duffy, not a publisher, not the ultimate consumer, but
a dealer, a purchaser from the manufacturer, a seller to the consumer, says that it is
aimed at him, and it is apparent there was, as he had heard and has felt, a gentleman's
agreement, so called among the manufacturers. He had felt the effect of it, as he went
on to say further on in his testimony at page 202, in its prices. ' As you understood it,.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 193

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

just an understanding among gentlemen,' I said to him, ' as the prices at which they
would you deal for their commodity ^ — A.Yes, and in a measure eliminate the middle-
man.'

Q. You could not give me any more accurate information about it, more than you
felt the effect in your business ? — A. No, not being a party to it. We felt the effect of
it very seriously.'

* Now, if you have that condition of things existing in the United States, which, by
geographical conditions, is isolated from the other part of the country, you compare
prices as they rule in the United States, with prices as they obtain here under such cir-
cumstances, will bear no comparison at all, as indicating the difference in price induced
by the free exercise of the laws of supply and demand, but a price controlled by an or-
ganization, whether under the sanction of a gentleman's agreement, binding in honour
or of an agreement, such as exists here, binding upon the pecuniary interests of the in-
dividuals who enter into it.

But we have the distinct testimony of these gentlemen in the United States as well
as those witnesses called here as to what ruling prices were in the United States during
the year 1900, and I refer very briefly to the testimony of these witnesses upon that
point. This same gentleman, Mr. Duffy, tells us at page 191, that during the year
1900, during the fall months of 1900, there was a very noticeable advance with them;
that prior to the rise which took place as late as October, he thinks, or September, he
was purchasing at about $1.75. Later in the fall he paid as much as 2 cents. They
had not yet felt its full effect; they did not feel the full effect until early spring, but
when that rise was felt, the ruling price was about $1.75 to 2 cents a pound, when they
had felt the effect of the combination or of the monopoly to a certain extent. Then
he states also at page 196 that on the thirtieth day of December last, he made a purchase
of 7,000 or 8,000 tons of paper at $2.15 f.o.b. dock, New York, bought on the thirtieth
day of December. That made the paper cost, he said, ' when we carted it, delivered it,
took care of the publisher, as we have to do, &c. The International would not do any-
thing but put it on a dock, and they generally put it on a dock from which which it
had to be removed within twenty-four hours, necessitating the paying of insurance,
and other expenses,' which he mentions. ' Up to that we did not have anything at 25.
I think we paid 40 or 50.'

Now, there is one instance, at all events of a purchase of a very large quantity,
a purchase from the International at $2.15, when in this country the same article is
costing every person who purchases it, $2.50, a very substantial and material difference.
Then he give a quantity of other evidence upon the same subject, which I shall not now
ask your lordshiji to hear me refer to in detail, but all of which is certainly well
worth careful consideration. Mr. Ross had stated, your Lordship will no doubt recall,
at the opening of the inquiry here, that in January, 1901, the ruling price which he
found existing in the United States was from $2.00 upwards. That is at page 13-14
of his testimony. He wrote to a number of papers in New York State asking them at
what price they were being supplied. They were newspapers of about the same circula-
tion as the Journal. He got replies. He says there were two at higher than $2.50;
one was $2.60, and the other papers, four or five, were lower than the Canadian com-
bine prices. One was at $2.40; one at $2.25; one at $2.15, and one at $2.00 per 100
pounds. So that his investigations as to what newspapers in similar position to him-
self were actually paying, would show that some were getting as low as $2.15 and $2.00
up to these higher figures, and four out of seven or eight publishers to whom he applied,
were being served at substantially lower figures than the combination prices here.

And then we have the evidence of Mr. Tarte on the same occasion as to what he
was told on that subject by Mr. Scrimgeour of New York, who was afterwards called
as a witness in this inquiry. On page 10 and afterwards on page 21 of Mr. Tarte's
evidence he speaks of his interview with Mr. Scrimgeour. ' I asked him,' he says,
' what were the papers in New York paying. He told me they were selling paper at
$1.70, $1.80, $1.85 and $1.87. He offered me paper at $1.87 f.o.b. New York.' That

53—13

194 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBiyE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

was in April of the present year. 'He offered me paper f.o.b. Xew iork at $1.87 or
delivered in Montreal at my oiBce at $2.4S, duty paid, delivered as I wished. That was
for a better grade of paper than the paper I am getting to-day at $2.50.' And then he
had more than one interview with him. He says : ' That was in ihp morning he came
to see me, and he came back in the afternoon, and he had communicated with the
house. I told him at that time that some of the paper mills in Canada had already
offered me prices ; two or three of them offered to leave the combine prices and give
me paper, had used some other means to give me paper, so as to secure my busineSs.
I told him that. He made up his mind that he would make an offer for $1.70. f.o.b.
New York, and then adding 17c. for freight and forty-five cents for duty would bring
down the paper below $2.40 per 100, and 5 per cent discount.

Now, I was referring in the first place, was referring specifically to that offer to
Mr. Tarte, to what Mr. Scrimgeour there stated to Mr. Tarte as to the ruling prices
in New York, from $1.70 up to the higher figure that he mentioned of $2.40. That
evidence is not in any way alluded to by Mr. Scrimgeour when he comes' to be called
a fortnight ago. That stands uncontradicted. Then Mr. Barber says, at page 18 of
his testimony, that in the year 1899 paper was selling in the United States as low as
$1.80. Finally, Mr. Scrimgeour called with reference to his interviev/ with Mr. Tarte,
when examined as to current prices and terms in the United States tells us the differ-
ent figures at page 162 of his testimony. Now, he is connected with the Manufactur-
ers' Paper Company who are selling agents for several mills, not operating mills them-
selves, but he is assistant to the general manager of that company so dealing in paper.
At page 162, he says, speaking of the terms on which they sold, and the ruling prices
during the year 1900 : ' At that time, in the end of April and first of May last, was
news print selling in this countr.v at 2c. ? — A. There had been some contracts made at
that price.

' Q. That might fairly be said to be the market price for some grades ? — A. Below
the market price; it was rather below the market price; it was rather below, but there
were contracts made for it; there were some for the largest consumers.

' Q. At the mill or at the newspaper office ? — A. At the. newspaper office.'

' Q. How aboiit waste ; was waste returned to the mill ? — A. No, sir, it was not re-
turned at any time.'

' Q. It was a loss to the consumer ? — A. It was returned at 75 cents a hundred;
it is worth that to the mill as paper stock.'

So that they were selling at $2 and upwards, making contracts at $2, allowing
75 cents a hundred pounds for the waste returned at the time when the combine here
had forced prices up to $2.50.

Then see Mr. Squier's explanation of that increase of price.

Mr. Squier, the second witness called in New York, being one of the partners in
this large wholesale firm of Perkins, Goodwin and Company, is asked on page 195
to explain the advance in prices. He says at once : ' On account of the combination of
the mills of the Int.ernational Paper Company and local reasons orders advanced in
some mills during the Spanish war, which made a great demand for paper.' Then,
speaking of the organization of the International, I asked him if there were mills out-
side of that company : ' Oh yes, a good many.'

' Q. A good many ? — A. Yes, there are now ; there were not at the time. Most of
the large mills were included in it; there were some, however, left out.'

As I pointed out, the few that were left out were practically out of it as far as
competition was concerned, in all New England and Northern States.

Well now, Canada ought to be able to produce paper as cheaply as the United
States, as cheaply as any other country in the world. That, we might say, might appeal
to the intelligence of us all, to your lordship's knowledge of the conditions which
exist throughout the country, without being testified to by any witness, and Mr. Gillean
has told us so at pages 96 and 97 of his evidence: 'Could it not be said generally
either of Canada or the United States, that the one country could, suppose there were

MiyCTES OF EVIDENCE 195

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

nothing to regulate prices ir.ore than the natural play of demand and supply, produce
more cheaply than the other < — A. Given the same conditions, we ought to bo able to
produce as cheap.

' Q. What do you mean by conditions ? — A. Supply and demand.

' Q. Raw material ought to be cheaper here ? — A. Yes, fully as cheap.

' Q. Is it any more expensive to bring a supply of wood to the factory in the United
States than in Canada ? — A. I think not.

' Q. There ought then to be no advantage in favour of the United States producer
as far as this pulp wood is concerned ? — A. Not much.

' Q. Would there be in respect of any of his other raw material ? — A. I think not.

' Q. Taking it generally, the Canadian manufacturer ought to be able to produce
quite as cheaply as the Cnited States '. — A. Yes, if we had as large orders, the same
size orders.'

Now, if that is so, prices ought to be the same under the same conditions, if they
were left to the natural play of supply and demand. Why are they not so ? Wliy, but
that a combination exists here amongst the manufacturers, having for its purpose and
object the maintaining of prices at a higher figure than the natural etfect of the amount
of demand upon the supply would cause. No other reason can be assigned and just to
the extent to which competition from the outside is prevented by the duty which the
Government imposes, which Parliament imposes upon the importation into this cnimtry
of paper manufactured outside, just to that extent the consumer is putting that amount
of percentage into the pocket of the manufacturer for every hundred pounds of paper
he buys. There can be no possible escape from that conclusion unless we show your
lordship, unless it is shown to the court, and unless your lordship can report in
answer to this Commission that conditions vary, that cost of production is greater upon
the other side of the line than here. If we find under similar conditions they are able
to produce at a lower figure than we can here, then we are entitled to argue thnt our
Canadian manufacturer can produce at the same figure, and the amount of profit he
has, is simply increased by the 25 per cent of duty, because but for the existence of
that duty he would be on a level with the producer in the Unit^'d Statjs and would
still at the same price realise just the same profit. If the United States producer can
make it worth the while of the Canadian consumer to pay the additional freight for
the longer haul thereby occasioned, then to that extent the Canadian manufacturer is
protected by the geographical conditions surrounding him. To that extent he is en-
titled to the benefit or to the extent to which he is artificially protected by the imposi-
tion of the duty, he is enabled to take that additional amount of the consumer and put
it into his pocket. His cost of production is no greater, there is no reason to enhance
the price ; the price is unduly enhanced by the effect of this combination taking advan-
tage of the duty which Parliament has imposed. Now, if we find under the existing
condition of things, and in face of the price which these manufacturers have created
for their commodity; if we find that men who have to consume can actually import,
and do import, and do thereby get their product at a less rate than they have to pay
for that product to the mills here, we have clearly and thoroughly established a case of
undue enhancement of the price, and the evidence does establish that condition of
things.

Take first, in that respect, the testimony of Mr. Tarte. Mr. Tarte tells us that he
was actually in negotiation with a country so far distant as Austria, and that he found
as a result of those negotiations that he was able to lay down here in Montreal, paper
manufactured in Austria at a price a trifle lower, after paying cost of carriage half
around the world, than the combine was charging him. On page 5 of his testimony
he describes how, a few days after he had made his contract with the Laurentide Com-
pany, which contract, he says, still exists, there came the question of fixing details.
He had been then trying all the manufacturers of New York; he had gone to New
York himself; he had gone into different States of the Union in his effort to obtain
this necessary commodity at a sufficiently low price, and having spent hundreds of

53—13*

196 h'OYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

dollars in cabling to Vienna for paper — ' I might say that at that time I was offered
paper delivered in Montreal below $2.50. I was offered paper here by the agent of the
Austrian house below $2.50.' That is the combination price. That is the figure at
which the Austrian competitor, under the conditions of long carriage, wliich would
naturally protect the manufacturer here against any competition from him. was able
to lay down his wares in this very city. At page 25 of his cross-e.xamination to Mr.
White, he is asked :

' Q. Now, when you applied — you did in England, I think, or in Vienna, were
the quotations you then got, for shipment to Canada, for Canadian delivery, or deliv-
ery there ? — A. We got cables. Of course, this is out of my memory a little, but I
know I would have saved a few cents.'

It was not suiEcient saving to compensate for the additional risks of the contracts,
with a basis of supply so extremely far distant, and where any vicissitudes of carriage
might occur in transmission of the wares, would possibly lead, if any unforseen acci-
dent took place, to a cessation of supply at any critical moment, but it was, so far as
the actual money question was concerned, a difference of a few cents in favor of the
Austrian producer. Then an incident occurs, or two incidents, in that connection
which are of utmost significance. This gentleman, whom I have mentioned, Mr. Scrim-
geour, representing the Manufacturers' Paper Company of New York, came to Canada
on the 30th of April and 1st of May of the present year. He knew perfectly of the
existence of a combination among the manufacturers in this country. He knew its
effect; he knew its prices, and he came here prepared to undersell, if he could obtain
any one who would buy. i\lr. Tarte testified in regard to his interview with Mr. Scrim-
geour. Mr. Atkinson of the Star in Toronto, also testified, and finally, a fortnight
since, Mr. Scrimgeour went into the box in New York and testified in exact accord
with what they said. We have the three men concurring exactly in their narrative
or what took place, and see what it was : Mr. Tarte says first at page 11 of his testi-
mony— I have already called your lordship's attention to it tjiat Mr. Atkinson came
with a sample of the papar — ' a better gTade than the paper I am getting at $2.50,
and he offered that paper to me for $1.87 in New York, or delivered in Montreal at
$2.40 duty paid, and delivered as I wished.' Then he told me, as I have read, he
did not care for the small saving it would mean, and after conversation in the morning
he came back in the afternoon, having communicated with his house, he offered it
finally for $1.70 f.o.b. New York, which was 17c. for freight (page 187) and 45c. for
duty at 25 per cent ad valorem would be $2.32, substantially lower than the $2.50 which
was at that time the ruling price which was established here by the combination. That
is Mr. Tarte's account of it, and it, your lordship will have noticed, was a better grade
*of paper than the paper that was being supplied to Mr. Tarte by the Laurentide Com-
pany Jiere. Then Mr. Scrimgeour went on to Toronto and saw Mr. Atkinson of the Star
the following day, and Mr. Atkinson details at page 76 what took place between them.
He says : ' It was the same as used in the New York Herald, Sunday edition, a much
better class of paper, I consider, than any paper being vised in Canada, that I had seen.'
And as we have had testified to us by Senator Holland : ' The paper used in the New
York Herald is a better class of paper than any used in Canada.'

Now, that paper Mr. Atkinson has produced to him by Mrt Scrimgeour as a sam-
ple. ' The agent,' he says, ' offered me in my ofiice to supply me with paper at $1.80
f.o.b. near Watertown, with a freight rate of 21 cents, making the paper delivered in
our office, without duty, $2.01 per 100 pounds.' That, of course, with the duty on was
really not much, because there was no use buying paper without the duty on, but without
the duty would be a very considerable reduction.

Mr. Scrimgeour, asked about both these circumstances, says : — ' Certainly, they
took place exactly as narrated.'

His oflfer to Mr. Tarte was $1.85 in the first place, his offer to Mr. Atkinson was
$1.8Q. He says he did that because the freight to Toronto was five cents more than
the freight to here. Now, see what that signifies when you isolate ths element of
duty ; $1.85 in New York with 17 cents freight to Montreal, $2.02 ; $1.80 in Toronto

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE I97

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

with 21 cents freight, or $2.01. This gentleman here representing the Manufacturers
Paper Company comes to Canada to get orders, makes offers of contracts, which, if
there were no duty in the way, would enable the consumer here to buy his commodity
at $2.01 or $2.02 per 100 pounds instead of $2.50. The duty is just 25 per cent ; that
is added on there, and it is extra profit to the manufacturer. The cost of production
in either case is under the $2.01 or $2.02, at which the commodity is offered. Cost of
production plus the living profit to the manufacturer amounts to $2.01 or $2.02, the
additional 50 cents is simply duty, is simply enhanced profit which goes into the pocket
of the manufacturer out of the pocket of the consumer.

Now, these offers being made by Mr. Scrimgeour, he was called, as it were, to ex-
plain why he had made them. Not that they were in any way erroneously stated by
Mr. Tarte and Mr. Atkinson, but in the effort to belittle their importance, and your
lordship will find in the evidence of the first witness called in New York on page 147,
he says he came here on the 30th April to see Mr. Tarte, and offered him news print
paper, quoting him $1.85 f.o.b. cars at the mills net. He made a calculation, he says,
as to what it would cost him off the cars in Montreal, and it would be $2.48 per 100
pounds. Coming here with that offer, he knew, he says, at page 153, that the price
established by the combination in Canada was $2.50.

• Q. Was that a factor,' I asked him, ' with you in making your quotation ? — A.
Yes.

' Q. You designed a quotation which would be practically equivalent, or a few
cents under ? — A. Yes.

' Q. I do not understand you, that the sale at these figures would have been any
loss ? — A. No, sir. It would have been a loss in the sense that we might have got
more money here for the same paper.'

Just the question your lordship put this morning to Mr. Graham : ' Not actually
a loss, comparing the price of sale with production V

' Q. Are yon in a position to say (at the foot of page 155) whether, had that con-
tract been made and carried out, the manufacturer would have sold at a loss, as com-
pared with his cost of production ? — A. He probably would have niade a profit on it.'

Now, that was a better quality of paper, substantially a better quality of paper
than the paper used by the leading newspapers in this country. He was prepared to
carry out that quotation.

I ask him on page 156 : ' Were you prepared to carry out your quotation ? — A. 1
was prepared to make contracts with them.

Q. ' At that figure ?— A. Yes.

' Q. And to any extent they desired within reasonable limits ? — A. Yes, within
reasonable limits.

' Q. What quality of paper was that ? — A. It was ordinary newspaper,' which he
called No. 2 News in the grading of the United States.

Then I showed him a copy I happened to have with me of the Toronto Glohe of
the day before, and asked him its grade of paper. He says : ' That would grade as an
inferior quality of No. 2,' it would be below his No. 2 ; it would pass as No. 2, he says,
but a low grade of No. 2.

' Q. Inferior to the quality of paper you were quoting on ? — A. Yes.' Then, going
en, about the comparison of the grades he says on page 161 : ' The quality of the Glohe
would hardly sell in this country at all for newspaper purposes.'

' Q. Supposing you did find a customer willing to take it, what would you say you
would offer to sell that at, how much under the other grade, such as you were quoting ?
— A. Probably 5c. a hundred, that is, 5c. a 100 under their No. 2.'

'Q. Why is it inferior ? — A. What is there about it that makes it inferior ? — A.It is
rough aud course.'

Then he says on page 169, having been re-examined by Mr. White as to the motives
that led him to come into Canada, which were. I might say, to counteract the demon-
stration that he apprehended the Canadian manufacturers might indulge in against

198 ROYAL COMMISSIOy KE ALLEGED PAPER COMBiyE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the export trade to the Old Country ; to counteract that, he came with those quotations,
and, as I have read to your lordship, perfectly prepared to make contracts, and finally
after having been re-examined on that point, to make the matter clear, a good deal of
questions were asked him at page 169 by me : ' I was prepared to make contracts in
Canada, but at the prices I was quoting, I felt sure of the fact that my quotations
would not be accepted' because he was quoting, as your lordship will see, just one cent
or two cents under the Canadian price. However, had anyone offered to contract with
him, he says ' I would have made a contract." So he came here prepared to make con-
tracts and with a sample of paper which was that degree better than the paper in ordin-
ary consumption here. Well then, there is just in that connection one further incident
that I have to call your lordship's attention to, testified to by Mr. Atkinson and Mr.
Spicer. Mr. Atkinson of the Toronto Star, at page 75 of his testimony tells us that
having made a contract at combination prices, he says, he continued to pay that up to
the present time, but there was one portion of the consimiption of his paper not in-
cluded in that contract. ' For that paper I have been looking about in the past few
months for a supply. I have cominunicated with publishers in the States, and they
bought some paper from the International Paper Company, Xew York. The price of
that paper was 2c. at the mill, Corinth, IN'ew York. I got half a carload. That was
a much better class of paper than any paper used in Canada. The freight upon the
half carload was high, as it was more or less a sample order. I did not wish to order
a car ; they sent me half a car at the same price, 2 cents and the freight added, 44 cents
from Corinth. I wrote the company and they told me that that was due to my only
taking half a car, but if I would give them further orders, in carloads, the freight
could be brought down to 25 cents a 100 pounds which would make the cost $2.25 deli-
vered in our office, for a quality of paper better than I am using, and better than I have
seen used in Canadian newspapers.'

Mr. Spicer was asked about that subject on page 227 and 22S. He says I asked
him distinctly — ' when you sold at 2 cents a pound or $2.00 a 100 pounds, did you make
a loss ? He is the gentleman who refused to give any information as to the actual cost
of manufacture in the International. He says : ' Well, in making a sale, I assume that I
do not : although I do not personally know that that was true.' On the next page :
' you were quite content to continue supplying him at that price as much as he wanted ?
A. He has not offered me an opportunity yet.

' Q. I do not ask you as to the event, but as to your own willingness to supply him.
Would you be quite willing to supply him under those conditions ? — A. Yes.'

So that Mr. Spicer is quite willing to continue to supply to the consumer in this
country, paper of a better quality than the paper that the manufacturers here are
charging $2.50 for. Mr. Spicer is perfectly prepared on behalf of the International to
supply at 2 cents at the mills in Corinth. Of course, the freight and the duty added,
make the cost of that to the consumer here slightly more than combination prices, but
the cost of production the same. We have the same fact, that the producer here is
able to produce his 100 pounds of paper at such a figure as will net him living profits ;
then to his 2 cents is added 50 cents by virtue of this combination he has entered inti.
Now, that, we urge, is plain evidence of an undue enhancing of ths price as the
result of this combination. And we have not merely that undue enhancing of the
price by effect of the combination, but we have other circumstances of disadvantage
to the consvmier, of advantage unto the manufacturer, unduly promoted by the asso-
ciation, which equally is obnoxious to the law. When the period of credit, the ruling
period prior to the formation of this association was four months, by this combination,
by the terms which they imposed on the consumer, that period of credit is shortened to
three months — a certain element of advantage to the manufacturer as against the con-
sumer. The right to return waste is an important consideration which the associa-
tion has destroyed. That right to return waste was one which formed a feature of all
contracts when regulated by the law of suppl.v and demand. That right, Mr. Scrira-
geour said, the manufacturers of the United States freely conceded. Not, it is true,

MINCTES OF EVIDENCE igg

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

at the same price at which they sold ; at a reduced figure, because the material can
be utilized as stock. Here, this association presumes to say : ' We shall not sell under
such terms as heretofore. We will make you take and pay for, even though you waste
this extent of unused paper, which we can utilize,' either at the same figure at which
tUey sold it, or at some smaller figure. Mr. Barber says that circumstance makes a
difference, in his judgment, of from 5 cents to 15 cents per 100 pounds in the cost of
paper to the consumer.' Tour lordship will find him state at page 21 of his testimony
here : ' Depending on the offices, when competition governed prices,' he says, ' they
had to get rid of their output at the best terms they could, and they had to take re-
turned pound for pound, and give credit for the waste, but when the association got
control, they quit that,' and as to the extent of the difference it would make, he says :
' In a fairly well managed oflice, it would not come up to much more than 5 cents, but
in some offices it might come up to 15 cents, so that it varies from 5 cents to 15 cents.'

Mr. Tarte also speaks of that circumstance at page 5. He saj's : ' Prior to the
association, paper makers have alwaj's been allowing us a reduction for the wrappings
off these rolls, which amounts to 12 per cent or 15 per cent on rolls. They had been
allowing us for the white paper. Xow, there has always been a considerable amount
of white paper wasted. I had been buying from almost every mill in Canada. All
these mills used to take it back and allow me the price I paid for it. When I put that
into the contract with the Laurentide Pulp Company I was informed by Mr. Gas-
coigne and Mr. Alger that the association had not provided for this, and that the
rules of the association were so and so, and I must abide by it ; that there was no dis-
count to be allowed for cash payments ; that there was no discount to be allowed for
white waste or for the wrappings of the paper.'

Tour lordship will remember Mr. MacParlane justifying that change by stating
that their twine cost them 10 cents a pound and they sold it to the consumer at 2J
cents, making a merit out of it. I wonder if they remember that the other merchants
who sell their goods, that the tea merchants, for instance, do not wrap up their wares.
This is a circumstance of vmdue advantage to the manufacturer at the exiiense of the
consumer, which the association has caused.

Then, in that connection, there is a further circumstance of th3 equalization
points that this association has established, and with regard to which, just one word.
It is testified to by Mr. Barber at page 28, and your lordship no doubt understands the
effect of it, so that I will be very brief about it. For some reason, the association
establishes points, they sa.v, because otherwise wholesale buyers who buy direct from
them and sell to the same consumer would not have any advantage over the consumer
who bought from a certain point with regard to which they charge a uniform rate of
freight, and the consumer who does not happen to live at these points has to pay the
additional freight. As a result of that, ilr. Dingman tells us at page 91 of his evi-
dence, and Mr. Stephenson at page 139 of his, that they who happen to live in Chat-
ham and Stratford, respectively, have to pay a difference of freiglit, 10 cents or 12
cents more for their paper than otherwise they would have had to pay. The establish-
ing of these points is a perfectly arbitrary thing by the association, a thing with re-
gard to which no justification can be made as to the geographical position of any par-
ticular point. They simply sell such places as they please and sa.v, this place shall
be, what we call, an equalization point, and any other shall pay the additional freight.
Mr. Stephenson expostulates, and in vain. A reference to the correspondence wliich
your lordship will find exhibited in his testimony, will indicate the efforts he made to
get his town put on an equality with the town of Windsor, sixty miles further away,
where the consumer had the advantage of the difference in freight.

This is simply a circumstance of disadvantage to the consumer to some con-
sumers, but no advantage to anybody except the middlemen, which this association
has created. I do not mean to say it had advantaged the purchaser at all. Mr. Barber
says it has not. He says he was always opposed to it, but to protect some other person
in common interest with themselves, this association undertakes to impose an addi-

200 ROYAL COilMISSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

tional burden upon the majority of the rural consumers of paper throughout the coun-
try. They established certain equalization points, and by effect of that regulation they
make the consumer who don't happen to live at these few points so established, pay
an extra 10 cents or 15 cents per 100 pounds, to the advantage of some other person.
That is a circumstance of -advantage ; that is a circumstance of disadvantage to the
consumer, established, promoted and maintained by this organization, which is undue,
which is one of the things the Statute intended should not be, and which I ask your
lordship to take into consideration when framing your report.

Now, just one other circumstance in connection with the importation into this
country of paper, is one of specially particular importance.

I have not seen the commission which is issued here, but from the discussion of
its terms which I find spread upon the notes at the meeting in Toronto, when 1 was not
present, I understand the scope to extend to all manner of printing paper. Now, a
class of printing paper of very great importance to a large body of consumers in the
country is ' book print.' The class of paper used, not for ordinary newspaper printing
but for job printing, for printing of various sorts in general newspaper offices, not
necessarily the production of books, but a superior or better quality of paper, ordinarily
referred to as ' book print.'

It deserves some notice for this reason, from the evidence in regard to that, that
the men who require it, import it to-day because it is cheaper to import it. Mr. Pres-
ton, at page 34 says : ' We buy ourselves, a considerable quantity from the States, pay-
ing 25 per cent and 30 per cent duty. That we never did until the last year or so.
That is paper for job printing, book papers.'

' Q. Can you bring it in to advantage in competition with the paper manufacturers
here ? — A. Yes.' Mr. Dingman, at page 42 says, that he investigated the alternative
of buying paper from the other side. He found that paper over there could be pur-
chased at two quotations : One at $2.12J and the other at $2.15, which, with duty and
freight paid, would deliver the paper in Stratford at a trifle under the combine
price, and then he describes on page 43 : Adding the duty and the freight he could lay
it down in Stratford at $2,784, as compared with $2.85 under the regulation of the
combine. And on page 46, that there has now been a reduction, — that I will speak
of in a moment, but that otherwise those were the prices he was obliged to pay.

There is just one further thing in that connection that I should have noticed
before leaving the rates in the United States. That is, to ask your lordship's attention
to the testimony of Mr. Dingman, verified by the correspondence he produces, exhibits
P-12 and following, showing quotations he obtained from Chicago during the month of
March, 1901. They were prepared to sell at the mills for $2.10 per 100, and $2.12j.
That is on pages 49 and 50. Then, Mr. Stephenson also imports his book print. At
page 92 he says : 'We are buying our jobbing papers largely outside the country ; we
are buying in England and also in the States, and really I am not familiar with market
prices of paper in Canada as perhaps as much as I should be, as I buy very little paper
in Canada for the last year and a half in consequence of the increase in price.'

Now, we have their evidence that so far as that class of printing paper is con-
cerned, the effect of the combine is that they simply import it, paying the duty, stand-
ing the loss and being simply that much out of pocket rather than submit, ip prefer-
ence, as a matter of business and financial expediency, in preference to paying the price
that the combine has established.

There is just one other circumstance to which I wish to advert for a moment and
then I have finished.

It is in evidence here that since this Order in Council was passed, since public
attention was directed to this matter, and since the appointment of your lordship as
commissioner to investigate, that there has been a striking reduction by this associa-
tion in its price.

We find in the minutes of the association under date 10 May, 1901, a resolution
reducing the price of news print to $2.37j per 100. We find the evidence, before we had

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 201

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

the minutes, of the different gentlemen who had been made acquainted with that reduct-
ion, stating in their testimony, — Mr. Tarte in the first place, at page 17 : ' A very few
days ago, since the inquiry was started, I have been offered paper, since the combine
price has gone down, since Saturday, a week ago ' on the 28th May, he says : ' The
combine price is $2.37j. I can get any terms I like. I can get three months, and we
can get renewals for that. That is since three weeks.'

' Q. That is since this inquiry ? — A. Well, I don't know.'

Mr. Young speaks of this at page 9 of his testimony : ' The last price is $2..37i,
with 3 per cent off, 30 days, in carloads. Previous to that it was 12jc. higher.'

Mr. Preston produces as Exhibit P-10, at page 29, a letter from the Canada Paper
Company, dated the 11th May, day after. This entry in the minutes appears, in which
they tell him they are pleased to say they are able to make a reduction on the price,
on the car now on order, making the price now 2|c., the usual terms and conditions.
Trusting this will not be unappreciated, &c.

Now, what is the significance of that circumstance ? We think, of the very great-
est. Is there any corresponding decrease in the cost of production? Not one tittle of
evidence of it. ■ Mr. Barber goes into the box and tells us, according to his figures for
this very year, no decrease of cost of production indicated by it, but May 1st, 1901, it
is costing him, according to his evidence, $2.15 to make 100 pounds of paper. He is
paying $36 a ton for his sulphite. Prices are maintained so far as his raw material
is concerned, but without any drop in the cost of production. There is a drop of that
substantial amount ordered by this association. Why ? Why, but that public attention
was directed to their doings. Why, but that they sought, if they could, to temper the
effect upon their organization or upon their price, of the blow they received when this
commission was granted. We cannot but argue, had this inquiry not been directed,
there would be no reduction in price. Similarly, I argue that upon the report which
your lordship makes upon this evidence everything depends, as to the price this associa-
tion will put upon the unfortunate purchaser. The purchaser is at their mercy. They
control the market. Although there are mills outside their association, the price they
fix is, as witnesses say, the price that regulates, and with this association in control of
the market, the purchaser is helpless ; the purchaser is at their mercy, and must pay
and return to the old figure of $2.50, if your lordship reports that the present enhancing
of the price is not undue. Just as if your lordship is in favour of the association,
they may a month or a week later increase the price arbitrarily to 3c. or 3ic., or any
other figure they please.

They are limited by the extent of the duty which is imposed. They can go just
the extent of that duty beyond the cost of production here or in the United States. If
they go too far beyond it, they, of course,, will make it worth the consumers' while to
pay that duty and import his paper from the United States, but so long as they keep
within the limits, so long as they do not, by their regulations, put into their pockets
more extra profit than the amount of duty that is imposed, the purchaser is helpless
in their hands, and we point to that circumstance made perfectly arbitrarily as evi-
dence that with the same freedom wherewith they reduced the price themselves, they
can increase it again if they desire, either resorting to the old figure or a higher one,
if they think they can do it with safety.

With this, I will leave the case in your lordship's hands.

202 ROYAL COMMISSIOS RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Montreal, July 31, 1901.

By Mr. White, K.C, representing the Paper Makers' Association:

May it please your lordship, — My learned friend has dealt so very exhaustively
with the evidence, I think it will hardly he necessary for me to go very fully into that,
but I would like rather to discuss with your lordship the principles, chiefly the legal
principles, upon which this inquiry will be based.

The section under which the commisison has been appointed follows the terms of
the Criminal Code almost exactly, that is, section 520 of the Criminal Code. This
section is amended by 63-64 Victoria, chapter 46, and now provides that every one is
guilty of an indictable oifence and liable to a penalty, &c., who conspires, combines,
agrees or arranges with another person or with any railway or steamboat or transpor-
tation company : —

See section 520, Criminal Code, as amended by 63-64 Victoria, chapter 46.
See Eddy on Combinations :
Vol 1., P. 121, Sec. 185.
P. 124, Sec. 189.

P. 128, Sees. 192, 193, 195 and 197.
P. 126, Sees. 199, 200, 203.
P. 127, Sec. 207.
P. 139, Sec. 225, note.
P. 141.

P. 200, Sec. 275.
P. 203, Sees. 288, 289 and 290.

Central Shade Eoller Co. vs. Cushman, 143 Mass. 353, 9 N.E.E. 629.

The Ontario Salt Co. vs. The Merchants' Salt Co., 18 Grant's Ch. Eep. ^40.

United States vs. Trans-Missouri Freight Association,e< ai., 53 Fed. Reporter 440.

Com. vs. Carlisle, Brightly, N.P. 36.

Gibbs vs. Gas Co., 130 U.S. 369 Sup. Ct. Rep. 553.

Cloth Co. vs. Lorsont, L.E. 9 Eq. 345.

Navigation Co. vs. Winsor, 20 Wall 64.

Seal vs. Chase, 31 Mich. 521.

Collins vs. Locke, 41 L.T.X.S., 292.

Johns vs. North, L.E. 19 Eq. 426.

Mogul SS. Co. Ltd. vs. McGregor, Gow & Co., et al., 1892. Appeal cases, 25.

Hearn vs. Griffin, 2 Chitty's Rep. 407.

Wickens vs. Evans, 3 Y. & J. 318.

Under this section, under the general law with regard to restraint of trade, we have
a number of decisions, and I think the jurisprudence is pretty well defined.

i was rather sorry my learned friend did not deal with that aspect of the matter,
because in arguing on the evidence as produced as to what would be an undue enhancing
of the price, it seems to me we should be guided almost entirely by the jurisprudence.
The principles are laid down very clearly in Eddy on Combinations, which I cite to
your lordship, at page 125, beginning at section 192. Section 192 is :

' Inasmuch as it is legal for one man by competition to strive to drive his rival out
of the field, it is lawful for two or more to combine for the same end, provided the means
to be used are only such as the individual can use, viz., lawful means.'

Section 193 : ' It is legitimate for any trade to obtain the highest prices he can for
any commodity in which he deals.'

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 203

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

Section 195 : ' It is legitimate for any number of manufacturers or traders to agree
on the selling price for their manufactures and the division of their profits.'

Then, section 197 : ' 'Combinations which have for their object the realization of
a fair price for tlie product of their manufacture and even more, are not against pub-
lic policy, though they operate against the restraint of trade.

Section 199.

Section 200 : ' It is not contrary to public jjolicy that two lawful trader's agree to
consolidate their concerns, and that one shall discontinue to become a partner with the
other for a specific term, even though by such an arrangement the public have to pay
more for the commodity in which the parties deal.'

Section 203.

Section 207.

Then, there are some Canadian cases to which I would like to refer your lordship.
First of all, the Ontario Salt case. In that case several incorporated companies and
individuals engaged in the manufacture and sale of salt, entered into an agreement
■whereby it was stipulated that the several parties agreed to combine or amalgamate
under the name of The Salt Combine, &c.

In that case it was held on demurrer that this agreement was not void as tending
to the public policy of being a monopoly, as being a restraint to trade, but that it
was such in its nature as the court would enforce.

Then, here is a very interesting decision in the United States, " The United States
against the Trans-Missouri Freight Association and others" reported in the 53rd Fede-
ral Reporter, page 440. In that case it is very fully dealt with, at great length, and
I invite your lordship's attention to it particularly as the particulars are very fully
discussed. I need not read the detail holdings. Then the case of Gibbs against the
Gas Company, 130 U. S. Reports, page 396 ; also reported in S.C.R. 553, U.S. In com-
menting upon this case, in his judgment, District Judge Reiner said : " It will be seen,'
&c. I will send all these references to your lordship.

Then there is a leading English case, which has been frequently referred to, of
the Mogul Steamship Company against the McGregor Gow, and Company (25 Appeal
Cases). 'Owners of ships, in order to secure the carrying of freight exclusively for
themselves at profitable rates, formed an association and agreed for a number of ships
to be sent by members of the association to the loading port ; the division of cargoes
and the freights demanded should be the subject of regulation. •

' That a rebate of 5 per cent, to all shippers should be allowed, who shipped only
with members of the association .'

I will also send this to your lordship.

Now, in that case, it is not very much different from the facts as brought out in
the present inquiry. In the present inquiry, we may probably agree upon the facts.
We have admitted that there is an association ; the contract of agreement is produced.
There is no question about it whatever. It is also undoubted that this association fixed
a minimum price. They fixed $2.50 as being the minimum price at which this news
print was to be sold. $2.50 being of course, less the 3 per cent discount, as explained
in the evidence, and also the delivery. We may also admit that this was to be en-
forced under penalties. The contract shows exactly the organization of the association.
But, I would respectfully submit to your lordship that there is nothing in that to show
that this was an illegal agreement, that this was an agreement that could be attacked
in the courts. Under these decisions, the parties to the agreement had a perfect right
to make that contract ; they were quite within the law in entering into this agreement,
and it has not been shown, I submit, that the price that was fixed, the minimum price,
was an undue or unreasonable or a price that was prejudical to the public at large.

Now, my learned friend has objected throughout this inquiry, to being put in the
position of the complainant; but at the same time, it seems to me, that it would have
been proper on the part of the Press Association to have made out their case.

204 E07AL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

In the argument yesterday, my learned friend suggested that he had been unable
to obtain certain evidence, and he had been unable to get at the cost of manufacture ;
that he had been unable to find out exactly what profit was being made by these various
manufacturers. But your lordship must have noticed that no effort was made, no
attempt was made whatever on the part of my learned friend to obtain this evidence.
It would have been very simple, and under the article under which your lordship was
appointed as commissioner, there was power to make any of the manufacturers produce
their books and state exactly what the profits were. There was no attempt to do that
at all ; the complainants have relied entirely on cross-examination ; they put one or two
witnesses in the box, Mr. Ross and Mr. Tarte and these gentlemen simply said that
they found that after the association had been formed they could not get their paper
as cheaply as they had been getting it before. Well, that of itself, does not show any
undue enhancement of the price, but it merely shows what we contend, that the manu-
facturers had associated themselves together to obtain a fair price.

In regard to the price, I might say, that Mr. Barber in his evidence offered to have
his books examined by an expert accountant. The question was raised as to whethei
these figures were correct or not, and the figures were submitted ; Mr. Barber said he
knew they were correct and he stood by these figures, and said they could very easily
be verified.

But, as I have said, no attempt has been made on the part of the complainants in
this matter to make a case by showing exactly what the profit was or the cost of manu-
facture was.

Tour lordship will remember that when the case was closed for the complainants, —
I should have thought that your lordship would declare that you were satisfied that
there was no evidence made out which would sustain the fact of undue enhancement
of price. After that I felt it my duty to give your lordship as full information upon
the whole subject.

Now, what I contend that we have jiroved is this : —

In the first place, that the price, the market price, not only in Canada, but in the
United States and in England at the time, that this price of $2.50 was fixed with the
discounts, which I have referred to, that the market price outside was higher than
this minimum price.

We have shown that in Canada manufacturers were obtaining as high as 3 cents
and over 3 cents for their product, when the minimum price fixed by the association
was $2.50. We have shown that in the United States $2.50 was considered a low
price during this time. With a ruling price there at above $2.50, we have shown that
manufacturers who were selling their paper in Canada, instead of shipping to England,
were losing money ; and we have shown also that all mills manufacturing news print
in Canada were working to their full capacity.

Now, there is nothing in the evidence here to show any attempt to limit produc-
tion. Every manufacturer was perfectly free to run his mill to its fullest capacity.
There is no attempt to force sales through one agent ; there is no attempt at all to
put any disadvantage on the consumer, but the manufacturers, as has been explained,
found, before this agreement was entered into, that they were doing their business
practically at a loss. Some of them were making money ; Mr. Woodruff, it has been
stated, said that the trade was in a healthy condition. That apparently was a mis-
understanding, because it was explained by all of the manufacturers who were ex-
amined, that previous to this time, trade was not in a healthy condition ; travellers
were constantly asking for better terms, and the competition which then existed had
brought the business dovsm until it could not be profitably conducted. So soon as the
agreement was formed, there came to be a uniformity, not only in the minimum price,
but a uniformity in the discount, and then the competition continued, because, of
course, manufacturers had advantages one against the other, and they had their own
regular customers whom they had been supplying for years and naturally would con-
tinue to supply. But I would like to point out one advantage to the smaller consumer.

MIXITES OF /:VIDENCE .,05

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

and this inquiry seems to be directed, and promoted largely by small consumers. The
fixing of a minimum price, which was made public, which was known to the trade
throughout Canada, the fixing of a minimum price enabled the small consumer to
know exactly what he would have to pay. Previously, when there was competition,
and one mill against another, if a man wanted a small lot of paper, was simply buying
in a small way, as Mr. Dingman and Mr. Preston, and those other newspaper men
who were examined, they may have to pay, and they did have to pay, much higher
prices than they have been ever since. So that the fixing of a standard minimum
price was really an advantage to the small consumer.

In speaking of that, your lordship must have noticed that the complaint comes
not from the majority of consumers, but from consumers who were using a very small,
a very limited quantity of news print, country newspapers.

My learned friend spoke yesterday of the abnormal profit which was' being given
to the manufacturers, and spoke of 25 per cent being added to the profits of the manu-
facturer, because they were not able to purchase in the United States. Well, it was
shown that the abnormal profits do not arise from the question of duty ; it is not that.
In the first place it was shown by Mr. Barber's evidence that there was no abnormal
profit. He showed that he made, I think, 4 per cent profit one year ; another year it
was 7 per cent, and the best year, 1898, was 20 per cent of profit. As against that the
witnesses for the complainant are asked what they consider would be a fair profit,
and your lordship will remember that they put this profit as high as 50 per cent. One
of the witnesses was asked, in connection with job printing, for instance, what he
would consider a fair margin of profit to add after paying his expenses, and he said
he usually added 50 per cent ; another witness said he thought 20 per cent would be low.
In view of these facts and the statement produced by Mr. Barber, which shows
that his maximum profit was 20 per cent, and the statement of Mr. MacFarlane and
others that they would be well content with a profit of 15 per cent, I respectfully sub-
mit that there is no evidence made to show any undue profits made by ths members
of this association.

Turning now to this question of tariff changes, I think I should point out the
very serious effects which would result from any change in the tariff, and the large
amount involved. It was stated in evidence that the amount of capital invested in
the manufacture of paper in Canada was something over $20,000,000. ZSTot only is this
amount involved, because this is the amount invested in the mills themselves, but
all the other industries which lead up to the manufacture of paper, and which employ
thousands of men, would be very seriously and disadvantageously affected by any
change in the tariff. At the same time, what would be the result ? It is not pro-
posed that the tariff of the United States should be affected at all. That would be
maintained, and the tariff would be taken off the United States paper coming into Can-
ada, duty would be taken off that, but the duty on paper going into the United States
would remain. Manufacturers in Canada would be limited to the small market in
Canada they already have, whereas the manufacturers of the United States with their
large market, as was explained to your lordship, where they are manufacturing at a very
much less expense than the Canadian manufacturers, would retain their markefi,
and they would simply have the Canadian market added.

Now, I respectfully submit that any change in the tariff would mean ruin to this
industry in Canada, and what advantage would it be to the complainants ? None what-
ever, because it has been shown that they could not buy their paper in the United
States as cheaply as they are 'getting it to-day in Canada. An attempt was made
to show that paper had been offered at $1.87, that if there were no duty that paper
would come in with an addition of 17c. for freight, and be laid down here at about 2c.,
but that was fully explained by Mr. Scrimgeour's evidence. Mr. Scrimgeour says that
he heard that the Canadian manufacturers proposed to give a rebate of $6 a ton on all
paper that was shipped to England. They were to combine to make a surplus of paper
and ship that to England, to compete with the American manufacturers, who are now

OQr, ROYAL COilMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

supplying the English market, and liis intention was, with the consent of his eomisany,
to come into Canada and let it be known generally that if there was any attempt to
interfere with the market which the United States had in England, that then the United
States manufacturers would come into Canada, and come in even at a loss.

The manufacturers in the United States have this advantage, that they can start
a machine, as has been pointed out, on one grade of paper, start it on the 1st of January
on that same grade of paper and continue on it all through the year. There is no
delay, no loss, and one newspaper in the United States will take the full output of that
machine day after day, without any change, without any loss, simply putting in the
same material and running it off. Now, in Canada, what is the position ? The largest
consumer of news print takes about twelve tons a day. The sale referred to of 7,000
tons in the United States would supply for two years for that consumer, and yet it
was not looked on as a very extraordinary or large sale in the United States. The
consumption there is so much greater, the advantages of manufacture are very much
greater, and it is for that reason that they can make these long runs of paper. There
is no change, no loss and no delay; so that it would be impossible for the Canadian
manufacturers to compete against the manufacturers of the United States if it were not
that the duty protects them.

Tour lordship has the full minutes of this association before you, and I am sure you
will have seen there that while one of the particular objects was the arranging of prices,
there were other objects which the association had in watching the general interests of
the trade in Canada.

The statement of the objects in the agreement, I think, is a very fair and very com-
prehensive statement and shows exactly what was intended. This association had ex-
isted before ; manufacturers had been meeting for purposes of consultation, and they
simply reorganized. It was not a new thing ; they fixed prices before, years previous
to the agreement, showing that they had been fixed before, but it was the increase in
price, the raising of the price that directed attention particularly to the reorganization
of this association.

I shall send your lordship these authorities. I submit that under the jurispru-
dence, the manufacturers of any commodity have a perfect right to form an associa-
tion such as this; that there is nothing in this association that resembles what is known
as a ' corner ' ; there is no restraint of trade ; there is nothing illegal and nothing im-
proper. It is simply as though individuals had formed a co-partnership, or came to
an agreement as to what price they should sell at.

I submit there is nothing whatever in the evidence to show that the price fixed is
undue or unreasonable, or that they yielded abnormal profits to the manufacturers, and
1 submit that under the law there is nothing to prevent a man from getting such pro-
fits as he can by all lawful means.

There was one point in my learned friend's address which I think I should refer
to, that is, with regard to the manufacture of sulphite pulp. My learned friend could
not apparently understand why Mr. Rowley should have laid such stress on sulphite
being contraband of war. because it entered slightly into the manufacture of sulphite
pulp, assuming that to be a slight part in the production thereof. It is an essential
part. It was not a question of increased cost, but it was the reduced production that
increased the value of this pulp ; sulphur could not be obtained, and the pulp could not
be made, and therefore the production being reduced, the cost naturally was increased,
and in the same way during those two years when the price of paper was constantly in-
creasing, all the raw material went up. It has been clearly shown to your lordship,
which I need not refer to in detail, that all the cost of raw material steadily increased.

Now, there is one other point regarding the reduction which has been made in the
minimum price. I submit it is in evidence by the manufacturers themselves that after
this year the price of paper decreased, the cost of the raw material was less, and without
regard whatever, and without feeling that this commission was issued as a threat, they
reduced voluntarily the price of paper. It was not as a result of this commission, but

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 207

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

it was as a result of tlie reduction in the cost of the raw material, just exactly in the
eame way as the increase in price was due to the increased cost of raw material.

Then your lordship will have noticed that one of the witnesses examined, — two of
•ihe witnesses of the Coujolidated Pulp and Paper Company who had been members of
the association — they explained that the price did not give them a living profit, and
that company has failed and gone out of business, although they were maintaining the
jtrices which were fixed by the association. In the same way, within the past few days,
there has been a large failure of sulphite pulp manufacturers in New Brunswick, show-
ing that the jirofits in that department alone are not abnormal. I hardly think that
your lordship will find that the manufacturer of paper must necessarily manufacture
his own pulp. My learned friend appeared to argue that the price to be fixed by the
manufacturers of paper for their commodity should be based upon the cost of product-
ion by manufacturers who produce not only their own paper, but who manufacture their
pulp as well, which naturally would give them a profit on the pulp and reduce the cost
to them of the paper.

I feel confident that your lordship will not hold that manufacturers like Mr. Bar-
ber, whose cost is in the record, that nianufacturers like him should be excluded from
the business because they are obliged to purchase their raw material. When we gave
•Mr. Barber's figures, we thought it was fair and just to give the cost of manufacture
by those who had to purchase their raw material. No doubt, Mr. Barber could pur-
chase his raw material as cheaply as anyone else, and purchase it at the regular market
price. When we show that under those circumstances, manufacturing without any
special disadvantages that his profit is less than 6 per cent or 7 per cent, I submit there
is nothing whatever to show that the minimum price fixed by the association is an un-
due or unreasonable price.

On the whole, I would ask your lordship to find that the association is a le'i'ally
organized one ; that it does not fall within the contemplation of the Article under,
which this commission is appointed and that there would be no reason for the govern-
ment to move or change the duty in any respect in regard to the importation of ]iaper.

Counter argu^ient by Mr. Aylesworth, K.C, representing the Press Asso-
ciation :

May it please your lordship :

I shall be very brief in what I have to say, as the new matter developed by my
learned friend this morning does not cover a very wide range of ground. I fully con-
cede that I did not attempt to address your lordship yesterday upon the legal aspect
of the case, because, whether rightly or wrongly, I certainly consider the matter to be
one depending entirely upon questions of fact. This is certainly an inquiry not of the
nature of a criminal prosecution. This is not in the nature of a civil action for dam-
ages. Any person who felt disposed to think a case for it existed, could have set the
criminal law in motion if an offence against the criminal law had been committed,
and the very fact that no such proceeding is taken, that the question does not come
before your lordship as any question of judging' on the civil rights of the parties, or
of any question of adjudicating upon the query whether or no a criminal offence has
been committed is the best evidence of its non-existence.

The government needed no commission to be directed to inform themselves upon
that point. Had the desire been to ascertain whether or no this combination was ad-
mittedly existing, was an illegal bond between manufacturers, that could be proceeded
with before the ordinary tribunals of the country.

But without any question of legality or illegality, the govermnent has issued this
commission, I take it, that it may be apprised by the evidence given before your lord-
■ship and by your lordship's report of the facts of this matter in order to ascertain

20S ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

whether or no it should recommeud to parliament the abrogation of the dut3- which
parliament has now imposed on this commodity. The whole purpose of the clause
under which this commission issued is, I take it to be, that the government may, by
exercising the power which the legislature has by that enactment conferred upon it,
obtain accurate information upon which parliament, if so advised, may act, and I
submit without any regard to the question of the legality or illegality of the com-
bination among manufacturers. We, on our part, have, in no respect, addressed
ourselves, either in the framing of our cause before your lordship or in the presenta-
tion of it that I made yesterday, to any such considerations. It may be ever so legal.
I don't question ; I don't care. If, upon the facts, your lordship reports, your lord-
ship concludes on this testimony, that we have shown a combination to exist, the
purpose and the effect of which is unduly to enhance prices, then parliament in its
wisdom, will act, and without regard entirely to any question of whether or no that
combination is against the laws of the land.

Now, with respect to the special circiunstance that my learned friend shortly ad-
verted to, just a word or two. My learned friend says much that is plain to me, as
I might observe, that as I understand the position taken, that my learned friend and
partner who preceded me in acting for the complainants in this inquiry, he took no
position that the Canadian Press Association were not in the attitude of complainants.
And it is evident that they were not to be regarded as prosecutors, but they were in-
forming the court of facts which were within their knowledge, which to them seemed
to establish a case that there had been here such a combination as is pointed out in
the section of the Customs Act.

Now, my learned friend says with reference to the complainants here, whom I
represent, that in a large measure the complaint or the attack, whichever you choose to
call it, comes from the small consumers. I scarcely know why my learned friend
should have come to that conclusion unless it be from the attitude taken by the large
consumer. No doubt the large consumer, who enjoys spacial advantages from the
manufacturer, is in sympathy with the manufacturer as against his fellow-consumers
who do not enjoy like advantages and as against the small country newspapers not
requiring to buy its news print in rolls, buying it in reams, and being charged $2.75
plus freight, as the witnesses testified before your lordship in this matter. No
doubt the combination presses more heavily upon the small consumers ; no
doubt they feel it most, but I am quite unable to say what bearing that has
on the inquiry, suppose it be so. The small consumer is as much entitled to
the protection of the government of the country as the large. It is just as much
the interest of the small consumer that parliament is concerned as .with regard to
the interest of the wealthy and large- consumer, who might be able to make favourable
terms with an association such as exists here. And aside from that altogether, it is
difficult, it is impossible to understand how there is the slightest benefit or. the slight-
est regard to the interests of these small consumers that my learned friend adverted to.

He says it is an advantage to the small consumer because he now knows exactly
what he is going to have to pay. Well, that reminds one of the answer which your
lordship may recall, Mr. Atkinson made when my learned friend pointed out to him
the advantage that this uniformity of price gave to the consumer. ' Certainly,' he
says, ' it posses the merit of being uniform.' Now, what earthly advantage is it to
the small consumer to know that he is going to have to pay a price which to him seems
extortionate ? The maximum price is not fixed ; there is no certainty about it except
this certainty that there won't be relief from the pressure. There is this certainty,
that it cannot go below $2.75 per 100 pounds for the ream paper. There is no know-
ing how hard around the wheel may be turned and how much may be extracted from
the unfortunate consumer. The price may ,go up to any limit the manufacturer
chooses to place upon it. He commits no infraction of his obligations to his fellow-
manufacturers because he may add on to the price. The moment he goes below he sup-
jects himself to a penalty. So that this price does not possess even the virtues my

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 209

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

learned friend claims for it ; it does not possess any of the virtues of uniformity. It
may be uniformly heavy, but it does not possess even the merit of certainty.

Then my learned friend says the profit his clients make is not inordinate because
witnesses on our part have said that they would not regard a profit of 20 per cent or
even 50 per cent as too great. I presume my learned friend was having in mind when
he spoke, the testimony given him on cross-examination by Mr. Dingman. Mr. Pres-
ton and Mr. Dingman are the only witnesses whom I recall that gave such informa-
tion to my learned friend. Your lordship will find Mr. Dingman's evidence in that
respect on pages 52-53 of the report. My learned friend asks him if he is carrying on
a jobbing business. — A. Yes.

Mr. Dingman is, your lordship will recall, the proprietor of a newspaper in Strat-
ford, doing a general business.

' Q. What advance on cost do you figure generally in making your estimates ? —
A- It varies. Generally in estimating a job, I usually add 50 per cent to the job cost ;
the 50 per cent including profit and share of the general expenses of maintaining the
business, otfice expenses, &c.'

There is where my learned friend gets his 50 per cent, but the witness immediately
says : ' I might say this basis I speak of is in regard to small jobs of a few dollars at
a time.' A very different thing from a regular business of a manufacturer extending
continuously during twelve months. The small job, the odd job that comes into the
printing office, that comes in to-day and may not come in again for a week or a fort-
night, the printer adds to the general cost of that job 50 per cent, and does not deem it
at all an extravagant profit. Speaking of such small periodical odd job, he says he
would not regard 50 per cent too much, but to say that this profit is an ordinary profit
for the manufacturer upon his whole year's business, upon an investment of hundreds
of thousands of dollars capital is something very much different, very much opposed,
I venture to say, to the idea of any witness who has spoken.

Then my learned friend asked your lordship's consideration of the results that
might flow to his clients or to the country generally from the report, in answer to the
questions propounded by this commission, adverse to the interests of those whom he
represents. My learned friend urged upon your lordship considerations of whether the
removal of the tariff duty, which now exists upon the import of this commodity into
the country, would be in the general interests or not.

I submit that this is a consideration altogether foreign to the inquiry here. Your
lordship, as I understand it, is asked to report to the House the facts in regards to this
matter ; to say whether it has been established that a combination does exist, to say
consequently whether it has been shown that that combination which admittedly does
exist, has had for its purpose or for its effect undue increasing of prices, or undue ad-
vantage to the manufacturer at the expense of the consumer.

Surely it is for parliament to consider the whole question of whether or not the
duty which has been imposed is one that is no longer necessary.

No doubt, it stands on the face of the inquiry, that if there had been, by reason of
this association, an undue enhancement of the price, the extent to which that enhance-
ment is attributable, and the unnecessary imposition of the duty is one that is unduly
to the advantage of the consumer. And even though your lordship should report, as
I submit, upon the evidence, the effects as justified, it will be entirely in the hands of
parliament to diminish or increase the duty as it may see fit, and the price which will
obtain in that regard will be solely, as we think, for parliament to decide.

Now, it is not surely any question of decision here or for consideration here of the
amount of capital that may be invested or the amount of men that might be affected
by the interference with the duty that is now imposed on this commodity. That raises
a wide question, an old question of free trade and protection, the whole subject of
whether the interests of the manufacturer or the interests of the consumer ought to be
regarded, and that surely is a question of politics, for the statesmen of the country to
decide. I might say thousands of men are dependent on the printing business for their

53—14

210 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

livelihood. If I took and estimated the number of men who are engaged in the pro-
duction of these newspapers, daily or weekly, I ventui-e to think that an equally large
proportion of our newspapers might be found interested in the question of whether
or not the price of this commodity to the newspaper was to be increased or diminished.

But surely these are not considerations to be determined here. These are entirely
for weighing in another place. Those are but in fact the time honoured considerations
which rest on one side or the other of the large question of free trade, or the necessity
for protection to what are called ' the infant industries of the country.'

I do not discuss these questions at all. I have nothing more to say on the general
effect, in which my learned friend ventured to travel out of the record when he spoke
of a recent large failure in New Brunswick of a sulphite pulp manufacturer. Of
course no evidence is in the record before the court of that. No doubt, all of us read
the newspapers, and we see these things as we do other things. It would be equally
appropriate, if I would refer your lordship to the paper and show you a large dividend
declared by companies we are familiar with, whose names were mentioned frequently
since this inquiry began. Whether or not some companies have been unfortunate and
have failed does not certainly concern this investigation. I refrain from referring to
these subjects because we have no evidence about them.

The danger of considering such matters is well illustrated by the evidence regard-
ing the Consolidated Pulp Company, which failed shortly before this inquiry began,
simply because it was endeavouring to do $100,000 worth of business on $12,000 of
capital, failing not at all by reason of any lack of price for its commodities, failing
simply and entirely, because it had not the necessary credit or the necessary capital on
which to do business. The same reasons exactly may have existed for anything we
know as the cause of the failure my learned friend alluded to, and I simply content
myself in regard to it by saying : ' There is no evidence about it one way or the other.'

The Commissioner. — Before closing this important inquiry, I have to thank the
learned counsel engaged m this case for the able, courteous and satisfactory assistance
they have given me in the performance of my duty on this commission.

The parties have now the right to expect an early report from the government and
^his report will be sent as shortly as possible after the inspection of the voluminous
evidence in this case ; and I expect to be able to forward my report the early part of
£ 'ptember.

EXHIBITS I'll

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

COPY OF EXHIBITS FILED.

EXHIBIT P. 1.

The E. B. Eddy Company, Limited.

Hull, C.\nada, 5 March, 1900.

Messrs. The Journal Printing Co., Ottawa, —

Dear Sirs, — Inclosed please find specifications for paper shipped you on the 20th
ult., and the 3rd instant amounting to 5,006 and 4,964 lbs. for which we will send you
invoice so soon as the price and terms fixed upon by The Canadian Paper Makers'
Association have been advised to us for this paper product, but you may be sure that
not only will you have as low prices, but the best attention, as prompt delivery and
the most favorable terms and discounts going, for we are in this, as in all other
matters, always with pleasure at your service, and only regret that you did not take
advantage of the opportunity oft'ered on a rising market by contracting for your re-
quirements over the year with

Tours truly,
THE E. B. eddy COMPANY, Limited,

By W. H. Rowley.

EXHIBIT P. 2.

The E. B. Eddy Company, Limited.

Hull, Canad.\, 10 March, 1900.

Messrs. The Journal Printing Co., Ottawa, —

Dear Sirs, — Inclosed please find invoice and specifications for shipment of roll
news to you under date of 28th February, 3rd, 6th and 9th inst., weighing in all 1S,780
lbs., which, subject if you please to the approval of and confirmation by the Pape"
Makers' Association of Canada, or otherwise to necessary alteration and advance in
price, we have invoiced at $2.50, and beg leave to say that as the uniform quantity price
for roll news as fixed by the C.P.M.A. is : —

$2.50 for carloads ;

$2.75 for 2 ton and up lots ;

$3.00 for less than 2 ton lots ;
With an advance of 25c per 100 for similar quantities of ream news and a furthsr
advance or extra charge for frames on any framed news, we have invoiced you this
lot at the min. price in effect for the maximum quantity, and if you please to con-
firmation of our action in this connection on your behalf as stated above; and have
to add, that if you are inclined to do so, we are ready to enter into a contract with you
at current prices although the market is steadily advancing, for your requirements
oyer the year 1900, and to say that if you will name a day and hour when we may
call upon you, we will with pleasure do so, meanwhile remaining,

Yours truly,

The E. B. Eddy Company, Limited.
By W. H. Eowley.

P.S. — This will serve to confirm the conversation had with you and to acknowledge
your letter of the 7th.

W. H. E.
53—144

212 ROYAL COMMISSION HE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 3.

The E. B. Eddy Company, Limited,

Hull, Canada, 13 March, 1900.

Messrs. The Journal Printing Co., Ottawa, —

Dear Sirs, — Answering your favour of the 12th inst., unless and until you hear
from us to the contrary we are willing to continue to deliver paper to you as at pre-
sent at the present carload price of $2.50 per 100 lbs. on the distinct understanding
which we beg leave here to reiterate that if the Canadian Paper Makers' Association
rules contrary to this you will take the paper from us in carload lots to obtain the
carload price, or in 2 ton and up lots to obtain the 2 ton and up price, or in smaller
quantities at the then 2 ton price, your quantity wish shall be our pleasure in the
matter.

If you wish to make a contract now for the next sis months — say to 1st Sept.,
1900, at $2.50 less 3 per cent, 30 days, we will conclude such at once subject to Canad-
ian Paper Makers' Association ruling as above and at the end of the sis months review
and revise the contract and give you benefit of any decline that may rule or charge
you any advance that may then be in order.

Tours truly,
THE E. B. EDDY COMPAJSTT, Limited.

By W. H. Eowley.

EXHIBIT P. 4.

In consideration of one dollar to us paid by the members of the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada, we hereby become members of the said Association, and agree
to maintain the prices, terms and conditions of the said Association, as per agreement
forming the same, dated February 21st, 1900, or as the same may have been or may in
the future be altered from time to time by resolution of the Association, as fully and
entirely as if we had been one of the original parties thereto.

Witness our hand and seal this twenty-sisth day of March, 1900.

{Signed) THE CONSOLIDATED PULP AND PAPEE CO. Limited,

John M. Poole, President.
Witness :

{Signed) E. J. Dilworth.

In consideration of one doUar to us paid by the members of the Paper Makers'
Association of Canada, we agree to become members of the said Association, to main-
tain the prices, terms and conditions of the said Association, as per agreement forming
the same, dated 21st February, 1900, or as the same may have been or may in the future
be altered from time to time by resolution of the association, as fully and entirely as if
we had been one of the original parties thereto.

Any member retiring from this Association, under the provision of the agreement,
shall be entitled to receive back his deposit if he is in good standing. i

Witness our hand and seal this twenty-sixth day of March, 1900. '

{Signed) ST. CEOIX PAPEE CO., Limited,

H. McC. Hart, Manager.
Witness,

{Signed) F. A. Young.

i I

EXHIBITS -J, 1 ;{

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

This Agreement made this 21st day of February, one thousand nine hundred
Between

1. W. Barber & Brothers, of the town of Georgetown.

2. Alex. Buntin & Son, of the town of Valleyfield.

3. The Canada Paper Company, Limited, of the city of Montreal,

4. The Dominion Paper Company, of the city of Montreal.

5. The E. B. Eddy Company, Limited, of the city of Hull. '

6. John Fisher & Sons, of the town of Dundas.

7. J. Ford & Company, of Portneuf.

8. S. A. Lazier & Sons, of the city of Belleville.

9. The Laurentide Pulp Company, Limited, of Grand Mere.

10. The Lincoln Paper Mills Company, of the town of Merritton.

11. Alexander McArthur & Company, of the city of Montreal.

12. Miller Brothers & Company, of the city of Montreal.

13. The Northumberland Paper and Electric Company, Limited, of the town of
Campbellford.

14. The Ottawa Paper Company, of the city of Ottawa.

15. The Eiordon Paper Mills Company, of the town of Merritton.

16. The Koyal Paper Mills Company, of East Angus.

17. Eeid, Craig & Company, of the city of Quebec.

18. The Eolland Paper Company, of the city of Montreal.

19. J. Stutt»& Son, of West Flamboro.

20. The St. Croix Pulp and Paper Company, of the city of Halifax.

21. The Toronto Paper Manufacturing Company, of the to^vn of Cornwall.

22. The Trent River Company, of Frankford.

23. C. W. Thompson, of the town of Newburgh

24. The Thomson Paper Company, of the Town of Newburgh.

25. Taylor Brothers, of the city of Toronto.

26. J. C. Wilson & Company, of the city of Montreal.

WITNESSETH :

1. That the said parties do hereby form themselves into an association, to be
called and known as ' The Paper Makers' Association of Canada.'

2. The object of the said Association shall be the promotion of friendly business
relations between the manufacturers, their agents, and the trade generally; also for
the regulation and maintenance of fair prices of paper, and for conference and mutual
aid, with reference to purchase of supplies and the like.

This agreement embraces all sales in the Dominion of Canada and Newfoundland,
but does not embrace papers exported out of the Dominion of Canada, with the excep-
tion of Newfoundland.

3. This agreement is entered into until dissolved by mutual consent, but any of
the parties hereto shall have the right to retire therefrom on giving three months' pre-
vious notice in writing to the Secretary-Treasurer of their intention so to do.

4. The officers of the Association shall be a President, first and second Vice-Presi-
dent, and Messrs. Jenkins & Hardy, of Toronto, accountants, as secretary-treasurer,
all of whom have been elected by the parties here to serve until the next annual meet-
ing, or imtil their successors are appointed.

5. The duties of tlie President shall be to preside at the annual and other meetings
of the Association, and generally to perform the ordinary duties of President or Chair-
man of such an Association.

The Vice-Presidents, in order, shall perform the duties of the President in his ab-
sence.

The secretary-treasurer shall have charge of all books, papers and records of the
said Association. He shall also collect and receive all moneys due or payable to the

2U ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Association, which said moneys shall be deposited in a good chartered bank at the City

of Toronto to the credit of the association. The secretary-treasurer shall make all pay-
ments required for the purposes of the said association out of the funds of the same. He
shall keep the necessary books of account for the purposes of the said association. He shall
have the right to call a meeting of association at any time, and shall also take the min-
utes of the meetings of the said association, and shall record the same in a minute book,
and shall give all notices and sign all papers and documents required for the purposes of
said association, and shall generally perform all the duties of such secretary-treasurer.
Ha shall advise simultaneously, by wire or post, as directed by the Association, all mem-
bers of the Association, all resident or other agents of members of the Association, and,
as far as possible, all travellers, of any changes in the Association prices and terms.

6. The regular quarterly meetings of the Association shall be held in the City
of Toronto within the first ten days of June, in the City of Ottawa within the first
ten days of December, and in the City of Montreal within the first ten days of Ifarch
and September, during the continuance of this agreement. The annual meeting shall
be held within the first ten days of June in each year.

Special meetings of the said association shall be held at any time at the place
mentioned in the notice thereof, upon a requisition signed by four members of the
Association. The secretary-treasurer (upon such requisition) shall give to each mem-
ber of the said Association at least three clear days' notice of the said meeting, which
said notice shall set forth the date, place and hour of such meeting, and the nature
of the business to be transacted thereat. No other business shall be transacted at
such special meeting than that stated in the notice calling the same, unless with the
consent of all the members of the Association.

A committee meeting shall be held upon the requisition signed by one member
of the Association.

All notices of meetings shall be given by registered letter to the address of the
respective members, or by telegraphic message, at the discretion of the Secretary-
Treasurer.

A corporation member of said Association may be represented by one, or two, or
three of its Directors, or by any duly appointed agent, but it shall only be entitled to
one vote. Any member (other than a corporation member) may also be represented by
any one, two or three duly appointed agents, but he shall only be entitled to one vote.
Resident agents or travellers shall not be appointed agents under this clause.

A majority of the members of the Association or committee shall constitute a
quorum.

Any resolution adopted at any meeting of the Association by a majority of the
members then present shall be binding upon all the parties hereto.

7. Each of the members shall be entitled to attend all meetings and to vote there-
at, either personally or by proxy, appointed as provided for in clause 6 of this agree-
ment.

8. The said parties hereto do each hereby (but so far only as relates to the acts
or defaults of themselves or those for whom they are respectively responsible) covenant
and agree with the other parties hereto as follows :

(a) That they, the covenantors, shall be responsible for the acts defaults of and
breaches of the provisions of this agreement by the respective agents, travellers
and employees of the parties hereto, and the agents, travellers and employees of the
respective agents of the parties hereto.

(6) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will conform to and abide by any resolution adopted under
the provisions of article 6 hereof.

(c) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will not quote, accept or book orders for, offer or agree to sell,
or sell the goods covered by the agreement at lower prices or on better terms and condi-
tions than those fixed by the schedule of prices annexed, to this agreement or fixed by

EXHIBITS 215

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

any schedule of prices which may be adopted by resolution of the association under
article 6, in substitution for all or any of the said schedule hereunto annexed.

(d) And that they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will not aid, abet, counsel, advise, or procure any purchaser
or purchasers, or intending purchaser or purchasers, to evade, elude, escape from, or
get round the provisions of this agreement, by suggestions of the consolidation of the
orders of two or more purchasers, or in any way whatsoever.,

(e) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, shall not, on any pretext consign goods covered by this
agreement, nor allow nor pay any commission to any person whomsoever, except to a
bona fide agent (who shall in no case be a dealer in the goods covered by this agree-
ment, or the employee of any such dealer) whose name has been previously declared
to the Secretary-Treasurer, nor sell nor invoice goods covered by this agreement except
in the name of the manufacturer, or, if bought by a member of the Association from
some other manufacturer for the purpose of being re-sold, then in the name of the mem-
ber so re-selling the same.

(f) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, shall not (except as authorized by resolution of the Associa-
tion) either directly or indirectly resort or have recourse to any scheme or svibterfuge
whatsoever (such as the giving of presents, or the giving or allowing of rebates on
goods previously sold, or the allowance of discounts on or deduetion<i from, or reduc-
tions in the price of other goods, or the giving or promising of any kind of benefit
or advantage whatsoever, or otherwise) as an inducement or aid, or which may operate
as an inducement or aid, in the making of present or future sales of goods.

(g) That they, the covenantors, and the agents and others for whom they are
respectively responsible, will not directly or indirectly advise or notify tlieir respective
agents, travellers, employees, customers, or other persons whomsoever, of the calling
or holding of any special meeting of the Association, or of any anticipated fall or rise
of prices thereat, or at any other meeting of the Association, and further, will not sell
goods subject to a decline in price, and also will not sell goods to be delivered more
than ninety days after the day the order for the same is taken, but any goods not ship-
ped within the ninety days above named, after the order for the same is taken, shall
only be shipped subject to, and shall be invoiced at, the price ruling at the date of
shipment, with the exception of contracts for news print or periodical publications,
for which contracts may be taken for longer period than ninety days.

(h) That they, the covenantors, will allow the Secretary-Treasurer at all times
access to their books of account, papers and correspondence, to enable him to verify
any statement made by any of the parties hereto, or to investigate any accusation
made against them respectively, and the agents and others for whom they are respec-
tively responsible.

And the parties hereto do hereby severally promise, bind and oblige themselves,
each in the penal sum of five hundred dollars, towards the others of them, to strictly
adliere to, observe and fulfil all the above agreements and obligations, and all rules,
regulations, prices and discounts which may from time to time be resolved on, or
adopted by the Association. And they further severally bind themselves to pay all
penalties that may be imposed upon them under this agreement for any breach or viola-
tion of the same by themselves or their agents, or other persons for whom they are
respectively responsible.

And to secure the payment of all such penalties when incurred, each of the parties
hereto shall forthwith deliver to the Secretary-Treasurer an accepted cheque for the
sum of five hundred dollars, to be deposited by the Secretary-Treasurer to the credit
of the Association in the bank aforesaid. And the interest on all moneys deposited
under this clause shall be accounted for to the members respectively, who shall have
delivered such mone.vs to the Secretary-Treasurer, as aforesaid, and such interest is to
be placed to their credit in the books of the Association.

216 ROTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

9. On or before the fifteenth day of each month each of the parties hereto, and their
respective book-keepers, and each traveller and each agent whose name has been de-
clared to the Secretary-Treasurer, and the traveller of each agent (all of whose names
must be declared to him forthwith) shall send to the Secretary-Treasurer a solemn
declaration in the form ' A ' hereto annexed, that he has not, directly or indirectly,
broken or violated, or permitted to be broken or violated, the terms of this agreement,
and is not aware of any such breach or violation. Any member failing or neglecting
to send such declaration to the Secretary-Treasurer on or before the said fifteenth day
of each month, shall ipso facto become liable to a penalty of five dollars per day for
each and every day such default continues. And a like penalty shall be exacted from
such member for each statement to be made by his book-keeper, traveller or agent, or
by the book-keepers or traveller of his agent or agents, which such book-keeper, traveller
or agent may fail or neglect to make, for each and every day such default continues.
And the Secretary-Treasurer shall have the right to charge the amount of every such
penalty so incurred by any such member against the amount ia the hands of the Asso-
ciation at the credit of such member.

10. On or before the fifte'enth day of each month, each member shall send to the
Secretary-Treasurer of the Association a statement in the form ' B ' hereto annexed,
which shall contain a summary of all sales made by and for such member for the pre-
vious calendar month, and to be accompanied by a solemn declaration of such member,
And any member failing or neglecting to send such statement on or before the said
fifteenth day of each month shall ipso facto be liable, and he hereby binds and obliges
himself to pay a penalty of five dollars per day for each and every day such default
continues. And the Secretary-Treasurer shall have the right to charge the amount of
any such penalty against the amount standing at the credit of such member in the
hands of the Association.

11. The Secretary-Treasurer shall have the right to verify any statements made
by the members of the said Association, by making such other inquiries as he may
deem necessary, but the Secretary-Treasurer shall not make known to any one any part
of the information which he may have so obtained, except when such member shall be
found to have broken or violated this agreement, in which case the Secretary-Treasurer
shall communicate to the Association at a meeting duly called, such details and parti-
culars of such breach or violation as may be necessary, and the refusal of any member
to allow the Secretary-Treasurer to examine his books and other papers relative to any
matter covered by this agreement, shall be considered a breach or violation of this
agreement, and shall subject such member to a penalty of not less that fifty dollars or
more than five hundred dollars.

If any complaint be made of the breach or violation of this agreement by any
member, or his agents, employees or travellers, for the investigation of which it may
be necessary to check the goods in the factory, or stores, or on the premises of such
member, the Secretary-Treasurer shall have the right to place one or more agents in
the manufactory of such member, to investigate such company and check the goods nad
effects therein, so far as may be necessary for the information of the Secretary-Trea-
surer, and to enable him to judge whether or no the provisions of this agreement are
being faithfully performed, and to pay such agent or agents out of the funds in his
hands belonging to the Association.

12. If any member, or his agents, or his or their agents, employees or travellers,
shall be reported to the Secretary-Treasurer as having broken or violated any of the
provisions of this agreement (the report giving particulars of such breach or violation
so as to enable the SecretaTy-Treasurer to investigate the same), or if the Secretary-
Treasurer shall discover any breach or violation or supposed violation thereof, the Sec-
retary-Treasurer shall notify such member of such breach or violation, giving him par-
ticulars of same, and such accused member, on being so notified, shall furnish to the
Secretary-Treasurer, within fifteen days thereafter, all evidence within his power, or
under his control, that he has not, nor have such agents, employees or travellers, broken

EXHIBITS 217

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

or violated any of such provisions, and the Secretary-Treasurer shall fully investigate
the matter, talking and acting upon such evidence as he sees fit, and if he is not per-
fectly convinced that no violation has been made, he may further call upon the accused
member, as well as any of his salesmen, agents or clerks that he may indicate, to make
affidavit or declaration in his presence, or in the presence of his duly authorized agent,
and before a recognized notary public or justice of the peace in the province of Quebec,
and a commissioner or justice of the peace in any other province of the Dominion, to
be selected by the Secretary-Treasurer, that the charges are false and incorrect. The
failure on the part of the member or any of his employees to make such affidavit or
declaration forthwith when requested to do so by the Secretary-Treasurer shall be con-
sidered as proof positive that the agreement has been violated; and further, if in his
opinion the member complained of has, or any of such agents, employees or travellers
have, broken or violated this agreement, as charged against him or them, the Secretary-
Treasurer shall declare and decide the same in writing, over his own signature, giving
particulars of such breach or violation, and shall in such writing fine the accused mem-
ber not less than fifty doUars and not more than five hundred dollars, at the discretion
of the Secretary-Treasurer, for such breach or violation, and shall deliver a copy of
such writing to the accused member, and such member shall thereupon be held to have
incurred the penalty mentioned in such decision.

Provided that any member upon whom such penalty has been imposed shall have
the right to appeal within ten days to the Association from the decision of the Secre-
tary-Treasurer.

Provided always that any member not appealing to the Association within the
time aforesaid, shall be held ipso facto to have incurred the said penalty.

Provided also that in the event of the Secretary-Treasurer's discovering what in
his opinion is only a clerical error in any invoice sent out by any of the parties hereto,
he sliall not enforce the penalty, but shall report the matter at the next quarterly meet-
ing, when it shall be adjudicated upon.

1.3. As soon as any penalty has been established against any member as provided
for in the preceding section, such penalty shall be charged by the secretary-treasurer
against the sum of five hundred dollars deposited by such member and in the hands
of the Association, and the Secretary-Treasurer is hereby specially authorized by
each of the members, parties to this agreement, to charge against such siim as may be
at the credit of such member, the amount or amounts of the penalty or penalties which
may be imposed upon such member under the provisions herein contained.

14. Should the amount at the credit of any member of the said Association at any
time be reduced or become less than the said sum of five hundred dollars, by reason of
any penalty having been imposed on such member or otherwise, the Secretary-Treasurer
shall at once notify such member of the said reduction and the amount thereof, and the
said member shall forthwith pay and he hereby binds and obliges himself to pay to the
Secretary-Treasurer a sufficient sum to make up the amount in the hands of the Associa-
tion to the sum of five hundred dollars. Any member who within ten days after the
mailing to him of such notices by the Secretary-Treasurer, shall not make up his deposit
to five hundred dollars as aforesaid, shall pay a penalty of five dollars per day for each
day during which he shall be in default so to make up the said amount, all of which
penalty shall be paid to the credit of the Association from the funds in the hands of the
Association to the credit of such member, and such member shall be considered as not
in good standing.

15. All or any penalties imposed on any member as aforesaid shall be charged by
the Secretary- Treasurer against the amount at the credit of such member as aforesaid,
and shall be divided quarterly, by the Secretary-Treasurer, amongst the other members
of the said Association in good standing, except such member.

16. And the undersigned members of this Association enter into this agreement in
honour bound to fulfil its conditions, irrespective of any legal question or technicality.

IT. The Secretary-Treasurer of the Association shall, in addition to the other duties
hereinBefore assigned to him, be generally the manager and superintendent of the said

218 EOYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Association, and it shall be his duty to see that all statements and returns required by
this agreement to be made by the members of said Association and others, are duly
made, and in the event of any member or other persons deviating from the provisions
of this agreement the Secretary-Treasurer shall forthwith impose the penalty herein-
before provided for any such infraction of the said provisions or rules, and his decision
in the case of any such infraction of the said rules or provisions of this agreement
shall be final and without appeal. He shall make the division of the penalties among
the members according to article 15, and shall render an account of the business at
the end of the year.

The salary of the Secretary-Treasurer is hereby fixed at the rate of
dollars per annum, to include both hotel and travelling expenses, payable quarterly by
the members hereto in proportion to the value of goods sold by each. His engagement
shall terminate on the dissolution of the Association, he bing paid pro rata to the date
of dissolution.

And the parties to this agreenient do hereby severally promise, covenant and
agree with the said secretary-treasurer, to hold him absolutely indemnified and harm-
less in respect of any moneys paid out by him by way of settlement or division of any
penalties or forfeitures that may be exacted under this agreement.

In witness whereof the parties hereto have hereunto set their hands and seals
the day, month and year first above written.
Signed, sealed and delivered in presence of

(Sgd.) S. J. FRAME, as to signature of

WM. BARBER & BROS.
(Sgd.) J. HARDY, as to this signature.
WM. BARBER & BROS.
ALEX. BUNTIN & SONS,

Per Geo. M. Toy.
CANADA PAPER COMPANY, Limited.

John MacFarlane, President.
DOMINION PAPER COMPANY,

W. CuRRlE, President.
THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited.

Per E. B. Eddy, President.

JOHN FISHER & SON.

JOSEPH FORD & CO.

LAURENTIDE PULP CO., Limited.,

Russell A. Alger, Jr., Secretary-Treasurer.

THE LINCOLN PAPER MILLS CO., Limited

Per W. D. Woodruff
ALEX. McARTHUR & CO.
THE MILLER BROS. CO., Limited.

Per W. T. Miller, President.
THE RIORDON PAPER MILLS CO., Limited,

Per Geo. E. Challas.
THE ROYAL PAPER MILLS CO., Limited,

F. P. Buck, President.

THE ROLLAND PAPER CO.,

Per S. J. B. Holland.
JAMES STUTT & SON.
C. W. THOMPSON.
TAYLOR BROS.
J. C. WILSON & CO.

EXHIBITS 219

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

THE PAPER MAKERS' ASSOCIATION OF CANADA.

Declaration required by agi-eement dated 21st February, 1900.

I of in the county of do solemnly

declare that I am for one of the

parties to the above mentioned agreement.

That during the month of 19 , neither I, nor, to the best of my

knowledge and belief, any other person for or on behalf of the said party, did in any
way whatever consign any of the goods covered by said agreement to any person
whomsoever on any pretext, nor allow or pay any commission except to bona tide agents
whose names have been previously declared to the secretary-treasurer of the said
association, nor sell nor invoice the goods covered by the said agreement except in the
name of the said.

That I have not, nor to the best of my knowledge and belief has any other jjerson
aforesaid either directly or indirectly resorted or had recourse to any scheme or sub-
terfuge whatever, as an inducement or aid, or which may operate as an inducement or
aid, in making present or future sales of goods.

That no goods covered by the said agreement have been sold by me, nor to the
best of my knowledge and belief, by any person as aforesaid (except to members of the
said Association), at any lower price than those fixed by the said Association and in
force during the said month of 19 , and that no rebates, discounts (ex-

cept as allowed by the said association and then in force), drawbacks, allowances, or
inducements whatever, have been made or allowed by me, or, to the best of my knowl-
edge and belief, by any other person as aforesaid, as an inducement to any person to
purchase goods.

That no goods have been sold by me, nor, to the best of my knowledge and belief,
by any other person aforesaid, subject to a decline in price, or for delivery except as
provided for in clause ' g ' of section 8 of the agreement.

day of A.D, 19 J

THE PAPER MAKERS' ASSOCIATION OF CANADA.
Report of Sales required by agreement dated 21st February, 1900.

Sales made by of

during the month of 19 .

To other members $

To all others $

Making a total of $

I, do solemnly declare that the above is a true

and correct statement of the sales of goods covered by the above named agreement,
made by during the month of 19 , and

that such sales were made at the prices and terms strictly in accordance with the terms
of the agreement above mentioned, and I have personally verified the same.

day of A.D., 19

220 BOYAL COilillSSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 5.

Georgetown, December 1, 1900.

T. H. Preston, Esq.,

Brantford.

Dear Sir,— TVe have your favor of the 30th, asking for quotations on 100 tons
news in rolls, and in sheets delivered in Brantford.

We quote you for rolls 2^ cents, and for sheets 2| cents. Terms 3 months or 3 per
cent cash 30 days.

Yours truly,

WM. BAEBEE & BEOS.

EXHIBIT P. 6.

Toronto, Dec. 1, 1900.

The Expositor,

Brantford.

Gentlemen, — In reply to your letter of yesterday, asking us to quote a price on a
hundred tons of our news in rolls and also in sheets, we will furnish you with the
amount required, in carload lots, as desired, freight paid, as follows : —

Eolls, $2.50 per hundred pounds.

Sheets, $2.75 per hundred pounds.

We are placing a new set of calendars in our mills which will shortly be in working
order, when we will turn out a very fine news.

We shall be very glad to receive your order and will give it our best attention.
We could have our representative see you, if advisable.

Tours truly,
THE CONSOLIDATED PULP AND PAPEE COMPANY OE TOEONTO,

LIMITED,

W. C. MacKay,

Secretary.

EXHIBIT P. 7.

Toronto, Dec. 1, 1900.

Mr. T. H. Preston,

Brantford.

Dear Sir, — ^Eeplying to your inquiry of November 30, we beg to quote you news
paper in sheets 2| cents per pound, carload shipments, rolls 2J cents per pound, car-
load shipments, 3 per cent 30 days or three months. We hope to be favoured with a
continuance of your orders and will do our best to give you a satisfactory paper and to
give your business careful attention. As you know we have been greatly pressed dur-
ing the past year and it has been impossible to avoid causing our customers a little
anxiety regarding their supply. Increased facilities, however, and a somewhat in-

EXHIBITS 221

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

creased supply will remove the acute pressure and we shall, we think, be able to give you
the best of service.

Hoping to be favoured with a continuance of your orders during the coming year,
we are

Yours truly,

THE CANADA PAPEE CO., Ltd.,.

F. J. Campbell,

Manager.

EXHIBIT P. 8.

Hull, Canada, 5th Dwsember, 1900.

The Expositor,

Brantford, Ont.

Dear Sirs, — Answering the obliging inquiry in your favour of the 30th November,
the uniform prices on news paper in carload lots, freight paid or allowed to Brant-
ford, are

Eolls $2.50

Eeams 2.75

We shall hope to be favoured with your order for your requirements, as we shall be
ready to ship in a short time now.

We have instructed our Mr. McLean to call and see you as soon as possible.

Yours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Ltd.,

By W. H. EOWLEY.

EXHIBIT P. 9.

Merritton, Ont., January 9, 1901.

The Expositor,

Brantford, Ontario.

Dear Sirs, — We are in receipt of your kind favour of the 8th inst., advising us
that you will let your contract for news on or about the 22nd inst. Our Mr. Kiordou
will be at the mill Saturday or Monday, and if we can possibly make you any special
inducement to give us your contract we will be pleased to do so, but may frankly say
that we have already booked contracts for the year 1901 for nearly, if not quite, our
full production, and we cannot see our way clear at present to name any lower figure
than that quoted by Mr. Challes, namely $3.75 per 100 pounds in car lots for sheets,
terms 3 months or 3 per cent 30 days. However, we will write you finally early next
week, or if Mr. Challes can go down to see you we will send him, as we very much
desire to do business with you, being the nearest mill to Brantford.

Yours truly,

THE EIOEDON PAPEE MILLS, Ltd.,

T. J. Stevenson.

222 ROYAL COilillSSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIXE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 10.

Toronto, Ont., 11th May, 1901.

Mr. T. H. Preston,

Brantford, Ontario.

Dear Sir, — Eegarding your contract for news, we are pleased to say that we shall
be able to make you a reduction on the car now on order, making the price 2| cents
per pound, usual terms and conditions.

Trusting this will not be unappreciated, we are

Tours truly,

CANADA PAPER COMPANY, Ltd.,

F. J. Campbell,

Manager.

EXHIBIT P. 11.

Merritton, Ont., August 22, 1900.

Messrs. Stratford Herald Printing Co.,

Stratford, Ont.

Dear Sirs, — Your favour of 20th instant is received.

We enter your esteemed order and will ship in good time to an'ive safely before
September S. In regard to freights, we find Stratford is not a delivery point, and ap-
parently the nearest delivery point is London. We have therefore allowed you the
freight on the basis of f.o.b. cars London. This is what all the mills are doing and
we cannot do otherwise. We will, however, make the contract price $2.75 f.o.b. cars
Merritton in car lots, or $.3 less than car lots and deduct the freight on the basis of
London delivery, as per last invoice.

We are about to inquire whether Georgetown would be nearer as a freight basis
and will advise accordingly.

As regards draft, kindly accept same as we cannot make any alteration from the
three months' terms, and as it has gone forward will thank you to accept it.

Yours truly,

THE RIORDON PAPER MILLS, Ltd.,

T. J. Stetonson.

EXHIBIT P. 12.

Chicago, March 28th, 1901.

Stratford Herald Printing Co.,
Stratford, Canada.

Gentlemen, — Replying to your favour of the 26th iust., would say that we have
forwarded your letter to our Mr. Barr, who may be able to call on you before he re-
turns.

EXHIBITS 223

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

In regard to price on print paper in carload lots would say that we could quote
you on paper to weigh 24 x 36 — 28 lbs. to the ream and heavier, either in rolls or in
sheets, $2.10 per cwt., f.o.b. mill, Anderson, Ind. Terms as usual. "We do not think
the rate would be more than 20c per cwt., and we do not know what the duty would
be.

We are not working with any combination of any kind, and we would be very
glad to help you in any way we could to buy paper at a lower price than you can got
it from the Canadian mills.

Yours truly,

BRADNER SMITH & CO.

EXHIBIT P. 13.

INLAND DAILY PRESS ASSOCIATION,

Michigan City, Ind., March 18, 1901.

W. S. DiNGMAN,

Stratford, Canada.

Dear Sir, — Absence from home prevented my answering your letter at an earlier
date.

I enclose you copy of contract which our Association has recently made, making
us a saving of from 25 to 40 cents per 100 over what we were paying previously.

The Cliff Paper Co., Niagara Falls, gave about the same quotations for paper on
cars at Niagara Falls, as we are now paying.

The proceedings of our meetings are not published, members being required to
attend meetings in order to get the benefits thereof.

If the information herein contained is of any benefit to you, you are very welcome
to same.

Very respectfully,

IRA S. CARPENTER,

Secretary I. D. P. A.

CONTRACT WITH BRADNER SMITH & CO., FOR PRINT PAPER.

Office of Bradner Smith & Co., Paper Makers,

' Chicago, December 11, 1900.

We hereby agree to furnish the members of the Inland Daily Press Association
their supply of print paper for the ensuing year, 1901, at the rate of $2.18 per cwt.,
f.o.b. cars Menasha, Wisconsin. Terms 3 per cent in 30 days, or 60 days net.

In case of a general decline in the market, we agree to meet it. We reserve the
right, should the market decline below the price we can afford to handle this contract,
that we may cancel same.

The paper is superior to the so-called No. 2 news, and the same as sample submit-
ted to the executive committee.

BRADNER SMITH & CO.,

T. F. Rice, V. P.

The following resolution in regard to the above proposition was unanimously
adopted :

Moved by O. Scott, Herald, Decatur, 111., that the members of the Inland Daily
Press Association hereby accept the above proposition.

■2-2i

ROYAL COJ/.l//SS/Oy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 14.

XuGARA Falls, N.Y., March 27, 1901.

The Stratford Herald Printing Company,
Stratford, Ont.

Gentlemen, — We have yours of the 26th and would say that a carload of paper
by our railroad classification is 30,000 pounds. We can name you a special price on
this of 2jc. f.o.b. cars this city, less 3 per cent cash. We imagine, however, from the
duty, that this would make it higher than you could get it for at home and 2jc. is
lower than we are securing here as we usually make a lower price for export business.

Tours very truly,

CLIPF PAPER COMPANY.

EXHIBIT P. 15.

Toronto, Ont., 23rd May, 1901.

W. S. DiNGMAN, Esq.,
Herald Printing Co.,

Stratford, Ont.

Dear Sir, — We beg to thank you for yours of 22nd inst. We might say the writer
has always opposed the present freight arrangement, but the solons who control matters,
not being so closely in touch with the trade, did not see it in quite the same way. We
think, however, that they are now coming to our way of thinking, and shall write you
further in the course of a few days.

Yours truly,

CANADA PAPER CO., Limited,

F. J. Campbell, Manager.

EXHIBIT P. 16.

Chatham, Ont., March 22nd, 1900.

Messrs. Jexkiks & Hardy,

Mgrs. Canada Paper Association,

Toronto.

Dear Sirs, — I am much surprised to find in the arrangements of your petitions of
delivery of paper, Chatham should have been omitted, when such points as Sarnia and
Windsor have been allowed, when double the quantity of stock is consumed here each
year than at either of the points mentioned.

I will be glad to know the reasons advanced (if any) why such a conclusion was
arrived at, and cannot believe the Association is desirous of being a party to such a
manifestly unjust act.

Yours truly,

S. STEPHENSON.

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

EXHIBITS

EXHIBIT P. 17.

225

ToEONTO, March 22nd, i900.

S. Stephenson, Esq.,
The Planet,
Chatham, Ont.

Dear Sir, —

Ee Paper Makers' Association of Canada.

We beg to acknowledge receipt of your favour of the 22nd instant, which we will
lay before the Association at its next meeting, when the matter will have due attention.

Yours truly,

JENKINS & HARDY.

Sec.-Treas.

EXHIBIT P. 18.

Merritton, Ont., 10th J uly, 1900.

S. Stephenson, Esq.

Chatham, Ont.

Dear Sir, — Our recent quotation for print paper was for car lots. If in less than
car lots price would be 3c. f.o.b. Windsor, terms 3 months or 3 per cent 30 days.
Trusting that our figures are acceptable, iind to be favoured with your contract.

Yours truly,

THE EIORDON PAPER MILLS, Ltd.

T. J. Stephenson.

EXHIBIT P. 19.

Chatham, Ont., July 12th, 1900.

T. J. STEVEIySON, Esq.,

Riordon Paper Mills,

Merritton.

T>E.\R Sir,— I am just going west, but upon my return will find your answer await-
ing me.

You say f.o.b. Windsor. Please explain if this means that you will allow me the
same freight as if it was billed to Windsor, and that the paper will be consigned to
this point, and if so please give me an approximate on a car. I have offers at the same
as you quote from travellers, but I have not discussed the matter with other parties
up to the present.

Yours very truly,

S. STEPHENSON.
53—15

226 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 20.

Chatham, Ont., July 19th, 1900.
T. J. SxEviiMSON, Esq.,

Riordon Paper Mills,

Merritton.

Dear Sir, — I would simply look upon such a discrimination as dishonest, and I can
only express my amazement that the manufacturers of paper would be parties in such
small-minded legislation. Individually, I can only assume that you opposed the en-
forcement of such a measure, and I have yet to meet a single representative of any
paper mill in Canada who does not ridicule the motion, and say : ''Our hands are tied."

I would rather lose double the amount than to know that I had to submit to such a
ruling. However, I suppose I must submit to the inevitable, and await my time until
the tables are turned.

Yours truly,

S. STEPHENSON.

EXHIBIT P. 21.

THE RIORDON PAPER MILLS, Limited,

Merritton, Ont., July 20th, 1900.
S. Stephenson, Esq.,
The Planet,

Chatham.

Dear Sib, — Tour favour 19th inst is received. We quite agree with you that
there should be no discrimination in freight. Some time ago we applied to have
Chatham put on the delivery list, only on your account, as we sell no one but yourself
in Chatham. We are personally taking up this matter and hope to report success. In
the meantime we are unfortunately not in a position to allow any different freight.

Yours truly,

T. J. STEVENSON.

EXHIBIT P. 22.

THE RIORDON PAPER MILLS, Limited,

Merritton, Ont., ITth August, 1900.
S. Stephenson, Esq.

Chatham, Ont.

Dear Sir, — We are in receipt of your favour of 16th inst. The oversight on our
part was in failing to advise you that we could not fill your order by shipping it to
Windsor. We took steps to learn if this could be done and not violate e.Kistiug
freight arrangements. We found we could not do so and apparently did not so advise
you, as we fully intended doing.

We can sell you in no other way than invoiced and as we are trying to have Chat-
ham made a delivery town, trust you will appreciate our position in the matter.

Yours truly,

T. J. STEVENSON.

EXHIBITS 227

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

EXHIBIT P. 23.

Hull, Canada, November 22nd, 1898.

The Journal Printing Co., Limited,
Ottawa, Ont.

Dear Sirs, — This is to confirm the contract made between your good selves and
us by your Mr. Robertson and our Mr. Hall this morning, whereby we sell and you
agree to buy from us your full supply of No. 3 news in rolls for one year from this date
(or if you prefer to the end of '99) ; we to take advertising space in The Journal to
the extent and value of $240 per year, that is $20 per month, provided your purchases
amount to 200 tons over the year. The two contracts, for paper and for space, to run
concurrently.

If the foregoing is correct and acceptable to and accepted by you, please so advise
us by return of mail when our advertising department will at once send you copy for
advertisement to be inserted.

Yours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited,

By W. H. Rowley.

EXHIBIT P. 24.

Ottawa, Ont., Feb. 22nd, 1900.
Mr. Albert E. Hall,

The E. B. Eddy Co.,

Hull, Que.

Dear Mr. Hall, — With reference to your request for an increase of 10 per cent in
the price of our paper supply: — ■

The undersigned has gone over the matter carefully with our Mr. Ross, and we
see no occasion, nor have we any desire to look elsewhere for our paper. You were to
call the last of the month or the 1st of March for our reply. We hojje that if your firm
cannot do better by us you will at least retard for a time the putting of the price into
efFect. When you have put it into effect, if you will call upon us with any agreement
which you desire to have us sign for the year's contract we will sign it.
We are, yours very truly,

THE JOURNAL PRINTING CO., Limited,

per C. N. Robertson.

EXHIBIT P. 25.

Ottawa^ Ont., March Yth, 1900.
Messrs. The E. B. Eddy Co.,

Hull, Que.

Dear Sirs, — We have your favour of March 5tli, and in connection with the con-
versation had with you yesterday we beg to enclose our business manager's statement
as to the view he took of the offer of your Mr. Hall on Feb. 14th to contract for our
year's supply of paper at 10 per cent advance, i.e., $2.23.
53— 15i

228 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE-

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

You will readily understand that had we not been perfectly sure that the order
was open to acceptance until after March 1st, we would have closed at the time. We
can understand your position when you assure us that your arrangement with the Cana-
dian Paper Makers' Association does not admit of your making contracts except at their
rates. We trust that the fact that we accepted your offer in good faith, and that had it
not been for your arrangement with the Paper Makers' Association you would have car-
ried it out, and adding to this your often-expressed desire to give us every assistance,
will permit of your giving us this price with the sanction of the Paper Makers' Associa-
tion, or at any rate a substantial reduction on the present rates. We trust you (and they
on the presentation of the case to them)will take the matter under favourable considera-
tion. In the meantime we understand that, pending reference to the Paper Makers'
Association, we have the option of a contract for a year at $2.50 per hundred, dating
from March 1st, subject to your usual trade and cash discount.
We are, yours very truly,

THE JOUENAL PEINTING CO., Limited,

per P. D. Ross, Man. Dir.

EXHIBIT P. 26.

Ottawa, March 7, 1900.
Statement of the Journal's business manager to the E. B. Eddy Company.

Dear Sirs, — On or about Eeb. 14th your Mr. Hall called upon us and stated that
since our contract had expired it would be necessary to increase the price which we were
paying for paper. When asked what the increase would be he stated 10 per cent. Upon
expressing the hope that the Eddy Co. would give us time to look into the matter and
give our answer, he stated that there was no desire to be urgent, and when it was sug-
gested that he should call in two weeks, being the last day of February or the 1st of
March, he agreed to it.

On going over the matter with our managing director, we arrived at the conclusion
that no advantage could be derived by looking elsewhere, and that the increase was not
an unreasonable one. Adding to this our pleasant relations with the Eddy Co., we
concluded to accept the offer, which we did on the 22nd February. Much to our sur-
prise, however, we were informed that the offer of your Mr. Hall was made subject to
immediate acceptance. Your Mr. Hall said absolutely nothing about immediate accept-
ance, but on the contrary agreed to call in two weefe. We naturally presumed, as we
think anyone else would under the circumstances, that he would call for our reply if
not sooner received.

The above facts, added to the fact that had it not been for the agreement reached
on the 20th Feb. by the Canadian Paper Makers' Association, would have resulted in
our obtaining a contract at $2.23, will surely entitle us to consideration at your hands.

CHAS. N. ROBERTSON.

EXHIBIT P. 27.

Hull, Canada, March 5th, 1900.
Messrs. The Journal Printing Co.,

Ottawa,

Dear Sirs. — Enclosed please find specifications for paper shipped you on the 20tli
instant, amounting to 5,006 and 4,964 lbs., for which we will send you invoice so soon
as the price and terms fixed upon by the Canadian Paper Makers' Association hav-

EXHIBITS 229

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

been advised to us for this paper product, but you may be sure that not only will you
have as low prices, but the best attention, as prompt delivery and the most favourable
terms and discounts going, for we are, in this as in all other matters, always with
pleasure at joxir service, and only regret that you did not take advantage of the op-
portunity offered on a rising market by contracting for your requirements over the
year with

Tours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited,

By W. H. Rowley.

EXHIBIT P. 28.

Hull, Canada, March 10th, 1900.
Messrs. Journal Printing Co.,
Ottawa.

Dear Sirs, — Enclosed please find invoice and specifications for shipment of roll
news to you under date 28th February, 3rd, 6th and 9th inst.. weighing in all 18,780
lbs., which, subject if you please to the approval of and confirmation by the Paper
Makers' Association of Canada, or otherwise to necessary alteration and advance in
price, we have invoiced at $2.50, and beg leave to say that as the uniform quantity price
for roll news as fixed by the C. P. M. A. is :

$2.50 for carloads,

$2.75 for 2 tons and up lots,

$3.00 for less than two ton lots.
With an advance of 25c. per 100 for similar quantities of ream news and a further ad-
vance or extra charge for frames or any frames news we have invoiced you this lot at
the min. price in effect for the maximum quantity, and if you please to confirmation of
our action in this connection on your behalf, as stated above; and we have to add that
if you are inclined to do so, we are ready to enter into a contract with you at current
prices, although the market is steadily advancing, for your requirements over the year
1900, and to say that if you will name a day when we may call upon you, we will with
pleasure do so, meanwhile remaining,

Yours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited,

By W. H. Rowley.

P.S. — This will serve to confirm the conversation had with you, and to acknowledge
•your letter of the 7th. — W. H. R.

EXHIBIT P. 29.

Ottawa, March 12, 1900.

Messrs. E. B. Eddy Co.,

Hull, Que

Dear Sirs, — We have yours of March 10th. We understand that you invoice at
$2.50 per 100 lbs., subject to the permission of the C.P.M.A., to deliver in waggon-
load lots. Also that you are ready to enter into a contract with us at current prices
for our year's supply. You also intimated in your conversation that the option to

230 HOTAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

enter into this contract at present current rates would hold till after you got a deci-
sion from the C.P.M.A. as to delivery.

Please advise us if our understanding of the matter as above is correct. In this
event we will be glad to have you inform us as soon as you have the decision of the
C.P.M.A. •

We are, yours very truly,

THE JOUENAL PRINTING CO., Limited.

per P. D. Eoss.

EXHIBIT P. 30.

Hull, Canada, March 13th, 1900.

Messrs. Journal Printing Co ,

Ottawa, Ont.

Dear Siks, — Answering your favour of the 12th instant.unless and until you hear
from us to the contrary we are willing to continue to deliver paper to you as at present
at the present carload price of $2.50 per 100 lbs. on the distinct understanding, which
we beg leave here to reiterate, that if the Canadian Paper Makers' Association rules
contrary to this, you will take the paper from us in carload lots to obtain the car-
load price, or in 2 ton lots and up lots to obtain the 2 ton and up price, or in similar
quantities at the then 2 ton price, your quantity wish shall be our pleasure in the
matter.

If you wish to make a contract now for the next six months, say to 1st Sept.,
1900, at $2.50 less 3 per cent 30 days, we will conclude such at once, subject to Cana-
dian Paper Makers' Association ruling as above, and at the end of the sis months re-
view and revise the contract and give you benefit of any decline that may rule, or
charge you any advance that may then be in order.

Tours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited,

By W. H. Rowley.

EXHIBIT P. 31.

Ottawa, March 14, 1900.

Messrs. The E. B. Eddy Co., Ltd.,

Hull, Que.

Dear Sirs, — ^We have yours of the 13th, but"it does not make clear to us the points
we desire to be informed on. May we ask your reply to the following : —

1. Have we an option of making a contract with you for a year's supply at $3.75
per 100 lbs. in wagon load lots, or $2.50 in carload lots, delivered (less 3 per cent 30
days), and will this option hold good till after we hear from you the decision of the
C.P.M.A. with reference to the question of delivery.

2. If the C.P.M.A. decides to permit wagon load delivery at $2.50, will the amount
delivered thus previous to their assent be $2.50 ?

3. If they do not assent, and we contract for carload lot deliverey at $2.50, will
what has been delivered to date be at the carload lot rate of $2.50 ?

EXHIBITS 231

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

4. If we make a contract for a year with you at present or after we hear from you
re C.P.M.A. and there is a decrease in price during the year, will we get the benefit
of it ?

5. When do you expect a decision from the C.P.M.A. ?

We are, yours very truly,

THE JOURNAL PRINTING CO., Limited,

per P, D. Rjss.

EXHIBIT P. 32.

Hull, Canada, 16th March, 1900.

The Journal Printing Co. of Ottawa, Limited,

Ottawa, Ont.

Dear Sirs, — The reply to your letter of the 14th inst. will if you please be de-
layed until the return of our managing director, who is at present attending a special
meeting of the Paper Makers' Association.

Yours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, Limited,

By W. H. Rowley.

EXHIBIT P. 33.

Ottawa, March 23rd, 1900.

Messrs. The E. B. Eddy Co.,

Hull, Que.

Dear Sirs, — In reply to yours of March 2nd, we beg to state that the Journal doe3
not intend to make arrangements to get its paper from other than the E. B. Eddy Co.,
pending your reply to our last letter. This reply we would, of course, like to have as
soon as you are in a position to let us have it in a favourable manner, i.e., after the
C.P.M.A. has sanctioned the wagon load delivery clause.

We are, yours very truly,

THE JOURNAL PRINTING CO., Limited,

per C. N. R.

EXHIBIT P. 34.

Ottawa, Ont., April 12th, 1900.
Messrs. The E. B. Eddy Co.,

Hull, Que.

Dear Sirs, — If agreeable to you we will close a contract with you for twelve
months from date for our supply of number three news, price two dollars and fiJ'ty
cents per hundred pounds, less 3 per cent for 30 day draft. We will have pleasure in
acknowledging your acceptance.

We are, yours truly,
THE JOURNAL PRINTING CO., Limited.

•.■^2 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 35.

Hull, Canada, 13th April, 1900.

The Journal Printing Co., Limited.

Ottawa, Ont.

Dear Sirs, — We are in receipt of your proposal for contract for full supply of No.
3 news of the 12th inst., through our Mr. Lumley, and have pleasure in acknowledg-
ing the acceptance of the contract at prices and terms named by. you therein.

Yours truly,

THE E. B. EDDY CO., Limited,

By CUSHMAN.

EXHIBIT P. 36.

THE JOTTENAL.

Ottawa, Ont., April 30th, 1900.

Messrs. J. Ford & Co.,

Portneuf, Que.

Dear Sirs, — In conformity with the conversation held with your ^Ir. Ford, will
you please book our order for a carload of No. 3 News, to be 38i inches wide, and of a
weight such that 100 papers of this width and 23i inches in length (2 sheets) may be
obtained out of 13i pounds.

We will ask you to be so good as to send us on this order, as soon as possible, about
a dozen rolls, in order that we may try the paper. If we find it satisfactory we will ask
you to send on the balance, and it will be understood between us that should we desire,
we may have the privilege of entering into a contract with you for our year's supply
of 38J-inch paper, the price to be $2.50 per 100 pounds f.o.b. Ottawa, less 3 per cent
for 30 days' draft, and this price will also apply to the lot ordered above; the paper
in style and finish to approach that given your Mr. Ford.

We are, yours truly,

THE JOURNAL PRINTING CO., Lhiited,

Accepted for Joseph Ford & Co.

EXHIBIT P. 37.

CONSTITUTION AND BY-LAWS OF THE PAPER TRADE ASSOCIATION

OF CANADA.

CONSTITUTION.

1. This Association shall be called the Paper Trade Association of Canada.

2. This Association shall consist of all paper, or straw or wood board or paper bag
makers and wholesale dealers in paper, paper bags and straw and wood board in the
Dominion of Canada who shall subscribe to the constitution and by-laws of this
Association.

EXHIBITS 233

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

3. The objects of this Association shall be to foster all matters for the benefit of
the members of the Association, and to protect them from all unjust and unlawful
exactions, to reform abuses in the paper trade, to produce uniformity and certainty
in the customs and usages of the trade, and to promote a more enlarged and friendly
intercourse among the members of the Association.

4. The Association shall be divided into four divisions, the first comprising the
news, book and fine writing makers; the second comprising the manilla, brown and
rag wrapping makers ; the third comprising the straw, tea, straw and wood board
makers, with the makers of all other grades not above specified; the fourth compris-
ing the paper bag makers and the dealers. Each division shall elect from among them-
seh'es a committee of three, who shall manage the business connected with their re-
spective divisions. The member of the committee receiving the highest number of
votes shall be chairman of the committee. In case of an equality of votes the mem-
bers of the committee shall elect their own chairman. The President and Secretary
of the Association shall be ex-officio members of all the division committees.

5. The affairs of the Association shall be managed b.v an executive committee.
Consisting of the President, Vice-President, Secretary and Treasurer of the Associa-
tion, and four directors to be elected as follows : The President, Vice-President,
Secretary and Treasurer shall be elected by a general vote of the members of the As-
sociation. The directors shall be the respective chairmen of the respective division
committees of the Association. The members of the committee shall hold office for one
year, or until their successors are elected.

6. The anual meeting of the Association shall be held on the second Tuesday of
September in each year, alternately in the cities of Toronto and Montreal. At such
meeting the oflScers of the Association and the four divisional committees shall be
elected by vote, by ballot, of the members present, in person or by proxy. Ten days
previous notice of the meeting shall be given by notice mailed to the respective ad-
dresses of the members as entered in the books of the Association.

Y. If from any cause the annual meeting shall not be held on the above day, the
Association shall not be thereby dissolved, but the annual election of the officers and
committees may be held at a special general meeting to be called for that purpose.

8. At all meetings of the Association each person, firm or corporation shall be en-
titled to one representative and one vote.

9. This constitution may be altered or amended at any annual meeting, or any
special general meeting called for that purpose by a vote of two-thirds of the mem-
bers present in person or by proxy. Thirty days notice of all proposed amendments
shall be given by the secretary to the members.

10. Special meetings of the Association may be called at any time by the executive
committee giving not less than 10 days' notice of the same, and on the application in
writing of any two of the committees of the divisions to the executive committee such
special meeting shall be called.

BY-LAWS.

MEMBERSHIP.

1. Any person, firm or corporation in the Dominion of Canada, of good standing,
doing business jis paper or straw or wood board or paper bag makers, or wholesale
dealers in paper, paper bags or straw or wood boards, shall be eligible for member-
ship.

All applications for membership shall be in writing, signed by the applicant, and
upon receipt of the same by the Secretary, endorsed by two members of the Associa-
tion as nominator and seconder, and upon the applicant signing the constitution and
by-laws he shall become a member of the Association.

23-t liOYAL COMMISSIOy RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
PRESIDENT.

2. The President shall preside at all meetings of the Association and of the ex-
ecutive committee, appoint all committees not otherwise provided for, and shall be
ex-officio a member of all committees. He shall, with the Treasurer, sign all cheques
and all official documents of the Association. He shall also have a general oversight
of the interests and welfare of the Association.

He shall have power to suspend all salaried officers and to temporarily employ
others in their stead, but in every such ease he shall at once call a special meeting of
the executive committee and submit the matter to them for final decision.

He shall have the power to call meetings of the executive committee at any time,
and shall call special meetings upon the written request of two members of the execu-
tive committee.

At all meetings of the Association or of the executive committee he shall, in addi-
tion to his vote as a member, have, in case of a tie, a casting vote.

VICE-PRESIDENT.

3. In case of the absence of the President the Vice-President shall fulfil his duties,
and in case of the death of the President during his term of office, the Vice-President
shall be President until the nekt annual meeting of officers.

SECRETARY.

4. The Secretary shall be ex-officio a member of all committees. He shall conduct
all the correspondence of the Association, and notify all officers and members of com-
mittees of the meeting of their respective committees. Give due notice of all meetings
of the Association. Keep true records and minutes of all meetings of the Association
and of the respective committees. Have custody of the seal of the Association, and
affix the same to all official documents of the Association. He shall have the custody
of all papers, books and documents of the Association. He shall collect all dues and
assessments and all other moneys of the Association, and hand the same over to the
Treasurer at least once in each week. He shall countersign all cheques of the Associa-
tion, and perform such other duties as shall be directed by the Executive Committee.

TREASURER.

5. The Treasurer shall receive from the Secretary all moneys of the association.
He shall disburse all moneys upon the order of the Executive Committee. All pay-
ments above the sum of $5 each shall be made by cheque, signed by the President and
Treasurer, and countersigned by the Secretary, and so soon as the moneys in his hands
amount to the sum of $100 he shall deposit the same in a chartered bank (to be named
by the Executive Committee) to the credit of the Association. He shall keep regular
and permanent accounts of all moneys received and disbursed. He shall render an
account to the Executive Committee whenever required so to do, and at the expiration
of his term of office shall give an accurate statement and deliver to his successor all
funds, books, papers and other property of the Asssociation in his possession.

CHAIRMAN OF DIVISIONAL COMMITTEES.

6. The Chairman of the Divisional Committees shall preside at the respective
meetings of their respective committees. They shall have a general oversight over the
interests and business of their respective committee divisions, and shall promote the
same by all means in their power, and they shall, in ease of a tie, have a casting vote

EXHIBITS 235

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

in addition to their vote as a member of the said committee. They may call meet-
ings of their respective conmiitteess when they see fit, and shall call a special meeting
thereof upon the written requst of two members of the committee.

MEETINGS.

Y. At a meeting of this Association seven members shall constitute a quorum. At
a meeting of the Executive Committee four members shall constitute a quorimi, and
at a meeting of a Divisional Committee three members shall constitute a quonun. No
business shall be transacted unless a quorum be present. The order of business at all
meetings shall be as follows : —

1. Calling the roll.

2. Reading and confirming minutes of previous meeting.

3. Eeport on Credentials.

4. Report of Ofiicers.

5. Eeport of Standing Committees.
G. Report of Special Committees.

7. Elections.

8. Unfinished business.

9. Kew business.

DUES.

8. The annual dues for each person, firm or corporation shall be $10, payable in
advance. Members joining after the expiration of the first six months of the year shall
'pay $5 for the balance of the then current year. '

The Executive Committee shall have power to assess for such further sum as may
be actually required for the general purposes of the Association. The Divisional Com-
mittee shall have power to assess the members of their respective divisions for such
amounts as may be actually required for the benefit of the division.

EXPULSION OF MEMBERS.

9. The Association shall have power to expel any member, upon a resolution to
that effect being passed by a two-third majority of the members present in person, or
by proxy, at any general meeting of the Association, or at any special meeting called
for that purpose. Provided, that at least ten days prior to the meeting a notice signed
by the President or Secretary, stating that a motion for expulsion will be moved, and
specifying the day, hour and place of meeting, shall have been mailed, prepaid and re-
gistered, to the address of the member in respect of whose expulsion the motion will be
made as given in the books of the Association.

SEAL.

10. The seal, the imprint of which is stamped upon the margin of this by-law, shall
be the seal of this Association.

AUDITORS.

11. The Executive Committee shall in each year appoint two auditors who shall
duly audit the books and accounts of the Association at siich times as the Executive
Committee may direct.

PROSY.

12. Any member of this Association may appoint another member to act as his
proxy for all meetings, or any special meeting of the Association.

23G ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902
AMENDMENT AND SUSPENSION OF BY-LAWS.

13. The by-laws of the Association may be amended at any regular or special meet-
ing called for that purpose of the Association, and a vote of two-thirds of the members
present in person or by proxy.

Amendments must be sent in, in writing, to the Executive Committee, and by them
reported to the Association, and notices that they will be acted on must be included in
the notice of said nieeting. '

Any by-law may be suspended for one meeting by the votes of two-thirds of the
members present in person or by proxy.

EXHIBIT P. 38.
PAPEK MAKERS' ASSOCIATION OF CANADA.

List of Deposits.

Wm. Barber & Bros $500 00

Canada Paper Co 500 00

Dominion Paper Co 500 00

E. B. Eddy Co ■. . 500 00

Lincoln Paper Mills Co 500 00

A. McArthur & Co 500 00

Riordon Paper Mills, Limited 500 00

Rolland Paper Co 200 00

St. Croix Paper Co 500 00

J. C. Wilson & Co 500 00

Consolidated Pulp and Paper Co 500 00

J. Eord & Co 500 00

$5,700.00

EXHIBIT P. 39.

INTERNATIONAL PAPER COMPANY,

New York, May 11th, 1900.

Mr. Taete,

Publisher La Patrie,

Montreal, Canada.

Dear Sir, — We have a note from Herman Ridder, Esq., of this city, asking us to
quote you direct for your requirements in 34-inch rolls.

We are in receipt of a communication of the Laurentide Company saying that they
have arranged to furnish you.

Assuming that this is correct, we conclude a quotation to be unnecessary.

Very respectfully,

FREMONT W. SPICER.

EXHIBITS 2:?7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

EXHIBIT P. 40.

Contract made this the 7th day of May, 1900, between the Laurentide Pulp Com-
pany of Grande Mere, Que., and Louis J. Tarte, for the La Patrie Pub. Company of
Montreal, Que., as follows : —

The Pulp Company agree to furnish La Patrie with their entire requirements of
No. 3 printing paper, in rolls, from this date until the first of August, 1901. Quantity
required being about 40 tons per month, more or less, according to the requirements of
the user. Price 2A cents per pound, delivered to user's oflSce in Montreal. Terms, cash
ou delivery. Subject to the following conditions agreed upon bj' the buyer and seller : —

First. — The gross weight of reels, including strings, wrapper and cores, to be
charged for in invoice. Cores when thoroughly stripped from all waste to be credited
back by actual weight when returned.

Second. — If the total actual weight or yardage does not vary by more than 5 per
cent either above or below the ordered weight or length, the order is duly executed, and
no claim can be allowed. A claim will only be allowed for the amount of any excess
over and above such five per cent.

Third. — ^Payment according to the yield of saleable copies cannot be claimed by the
purchaser or entertained by the seller, and no allowance can be made for paper left on
spools.

Fourth. — Claims for damaged paper cannot be entertained by the seller unless the
goods are signed for as damaged, and the seller immediately advised. Such damaged
paper to be kept for the disposal of the seller.

Fifth. — Deliveries may be suspended pending any contingencies beyond the con-
trol of the buyers and sellers (such as drought, war, flood, impediment of navigation
by ice, strikes, lock-outs, or the like) also by accidents or partial fire during such time
as may be required to make good the damage, but in the case of the works of either the
buyer or seller being totally destroyed by fire, this contract to be null and void. In
ease of suspension, the buyer and seller may claim the same rate of delivery as pre-
viously agreed, commencing after the period assigned to this contract, if such claim be
made within a month after due notice of the accident has been given.

Sixth. — Each delivery iinder this contract shall be considered as a separate con-
tract, and in the event of the buyer failing to adhere to the terms of payment the
seller, after giving two weeks notice in writing, shall be at liberty to cancel all, or any
portion of the remaining deliveries or sell against buyer's account for full amount re-
maining quantity due on contract.

Seventh. — Any dispute arising out of this contract, with respect either to its con-
struction or execution, shall be referred to arbitration in the usual manner, and the
arbitrators shall have power to determine by whom the cost of the reference and award
shall be borne. If either party shall fail to appoint an arbitrator within twenty-one
days after notice in writing requiring him to do so, the arbitrator appointed by the
other party may act as sole arbitrator. Each arbitrator named under this section shall
be a resident of the Dominion of Canada, and willing and able to act as such.

Signed,

LAURENTIDE PULP COMPANY,

Russell Alger, .Ir.,

Manager.

238 ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

EXHIBIT P. 41.

Montreal, Canada, July 10, 1899.

Messrs. La Patrie Printing Co.,

City.

Dear Sirs, — Replying to your letter of 7th instaut which refers to the renewal of
our present contract with you for the supply of your news print in rolls for the pub-
lication of La Patrie and Le Cultivateur, —

We beg leave to cay that from and after the 13th of July, 1899, and for the space
and term of one year from that date, we agree to furnish you with all the paper neces-
sary for the publication of La Patrie and Le Cultivateur at the price agreed upon
between you and Mr. Eddy at the interview which took place on Friday last, the 7th
instant, viz. : $2.05 per hundred pounds, all white waste to be returned and allowed for
at contract price. The terms of payment to be 3 per cent oS 30 days, or four months,
your option.

It is furthermore understood that the present advertising contract shall continue

■ and run concurrently with this new contract, and for the same amount as at present in

force, viz.: $600 for La Patrie and $90 for tile Le Cultivateur, to be expended during

the term of the news paper contract, and to be paid for quarterly as at present.

Your acceptance of this letter, which is signed in duplicate, shall be considered of
the same force and effect as a notarial contract.

THE E. B. EDDY COMPAXY, LIMITED,

Jno. a. H-ardisty.

EXHIBITS 2:5!)

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

EXHIBITS FILED BY THE PAPEE MANUFACTURERS.

EXHIBIT D. 1.

WM. BARBER & BROTHERS, GEORGETOWN.

May 1st, 189S.

COST OF Jt.\KING ROLL NEWS.

Ground wood, $18 per ton, 75 lbs $0 67^

Sulphite, $34 per ton, 25 lbs 0 42J

Clay, $10 per ton, 12 lbs 0 06

Material for 100 lbs. paper 1 16

Coal, $3.10 per ton.

Wages 0 20

Coal 0 15.

Cartage 0 02f

Freight to Toronto 0 lOj

Supt. and office 0 10

Felts 0 03

Wires 0 02

Repairs 0 05

Oil and light 0 03

General expense account 0 07

Cost of making 100 lbs. roll news $1 94

Selling price in Toronto, $2.40, less 3 per cent $2 33

Profit 0 39

$2 33

WM. BARBER & BROTHERS, GEORGETOWN.

May 1st, 1899.

COST OF SLAKING BOLL NEWS.

Ground wood, $17 per ton, 75 lbs $0 63|

Sulphite, $34 per ton, 25 lbs 0 42^

Clay, $10 per ton, 12 lbs 0 06

Cost of materials for 100 lbs. paper ; . . . $1 12^

Wages ; 0 20

Coal 0 15

Cartage 0 02J

Freight 0 lOJ

Supt. and office 0 10

Felts 0 03

Wires 0 02

Oil and light 0 03

Repairs 0 05

General expense account 0 07

Cost of making 100 lbs. paper $1 90i

Selling price in Toronto, $2.10, less 3 per cent $2 03|

Profit - 0 13i

$2 03i

2iO ROYAL COMMISSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBINE

1-2 EDWARD Vil.. A. 1902

Wir. BAEBER & BROTHERS, GEORGETOWN.

May 1st, 1900.

COST OF MAKING ROLL NEWS.

Ground wood, $23.50 per ton, 75 lbs $0 88

Sulphite, $42 per ton, 25 lbs 0 52§

Clay, $10 per ton, 12 lbs 0 06

Material for 100 lbs. paper $1 46J

Wages per 100 0 20

Coal 0 20

Cartage 0 02|

Freight 0 lOj

Supt. and ofiiee 0 10

Felts 0 04

Wires 0 03

Oil and light 0 03

Repairs 0 05

General expense account 0 08

Cost of 100 lbs. paper in Toronto ....'. $2 324

Selling price in Toronto, $2.50, less 3 per cent $2 42^

Profit 0 10

$2 42J

WM. BARBER & BROTHERS, GEORGETOWN.

May 1st, 1901.

COST OF MAKING ROLL NEWS.

Ground wood, $21 per ton net, 75 lbs $0 78|

Sulphite, $36 per ton net, 25 lbs 0 45

Clay, $11 per ton net, 12 lbs 0 06^

Material to make 100 lbs. paper $1 30J

Wages per 100 0 20

Coal 0 18

Cartage 0 02|

Freight 0 lOi

Supt. and office 0 10

Felts 0 04

Wires 0 03|

Oil and light 0 03

Repairs 0 05

General expense account 0 08

Cost of making 100 lbs. paper $2 15

Selling price in Toronto, $2.37i, less 3 per cent $2 30

Profit 0 15

$2 30

EXUllilTH 041

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 53

EXHIBIT D. 2.
PEICES AND TERMS PRINTS AND MANILLAS.

Montreal, September 22nd, 1892.

Wc, tlitt following members of the Paper Makers' Association of Cauaiia in meet-
in;.'; at this (iate have agreed upon the following basis as minimum selling prices for
the several grades of paper referred to, which prices are to go into operation from this
date, provided the Dominion Paper Comjiany also agree to same.

*3 print in roHs, carloads, ?>h cts. per lb. (three and a half ets.)
3 " ■' less than carloads, 3| cts. per lb. (three and three-quarter cts.)
3 print in sheets, carloads, 3| cts. per lb. (three and three-quarter cts.)
3 '' " leas than carloads, 4.J; cts. per lb. (four and one-quarter cts.)

Terms samc> as heretofore agreed upon, 4 months, or 3 per cent cash 30 days.

Carloads to be minimum 10 tons, and carload orders to be given in one order,
delivery to be taken inside of four months.

U. B. Manilla (natural colour) less than carloads, 4| cts. per lb. (four and three

quarter ets.).
U. B. Manilla, carloads, 4J cts. per lb. (four and a half.).
Bleached Manilla, (canary colour), les^ than carloads, 5A cts. per lb. (five and

a half cts.).
Bleached Manilla, (canary colour), carloads, 5 cts. per lb. (five cts.).

Terms on Manilla papc^r, 4 mos. or 3 per cent 30 days, on small lots, 5 per cent, 30
days, if necessary.

JOHN MACFARLANE, CANADA PAPER COMPANY.

Wm. barber & BROS.

GEO. E. CHALLES, for NAPANEE PAPER COMPANY.

FRANK FRIPP, FOR THE FRANKLIN PAPER COMPANY.

JAMES THOMPSON, PER C. W. THOMPSON.

THE E. B. EDDY COMPANY, BY W. IT. ROWLEY.

ALEX. BITNTIN & SON.

ALEX. McARTHUR & CO.

J. LEDUC, MONTREAL PAPER MILL.

ROYAL PULP AND PAPER CO., Wm. ANGUS, V. P.

LA CIE. PAPIER ROLLAND, PER J. B. ROLLAND et FILS.

J. C. WILSON & CO.

W. & F. P. CURRIE & CO., DOMINION PAPER COMPANY.

THE TORONTO PAPER MFG. CO., JOHN R. BARBER, PRESIDENT.

TAYLOR BROTHERS.

RIORDON PAPER MILLS, LTD., C. RIORDON, PRESIDENT.

JOSEPH FORD & CO.

•Amended at meeting, February 7, 1893, reduo;ng minimum price No. 3, to 3i cts. to buyers
of 30 tons per month or over.

53—16

242

ROYAL COMHrSSION RE ALLEGED PAPER COMBIVE

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

EXHIBIT D. 3.
LINCOLN PAPER MILLS COMPANY.

January . . .
February. .
.March. .' .
April . , . .
May .

.Fune

July..
August. . . .
September
Oct<il)er
November.
December .

January . .
February.
March . , . .

.\pril

May

June

July

August . .
September

October

November .
December

January . .
February .

March

Apiil . . .

Month.

I89it.

1900.

1901.

Cost of
Sulpliite

Cost of
(•round
Wo d

per tOD.

per ton.

$ cts.

32 00

17 00

32 00

17 00

32 00

17 00

32 00

17 00

32 00

17 00

32 on

17 00

32 00

17 00

32 00

12 00

32 00

12 00

30 00

18 00

36 00

IS 00

3S 00

18 00

40 00

21 00

42 00

21 00

42 00

2(i 00

42 00

22 00

40 00

25 00

3G 05

25 00

3li 00

25 00

3G 00

25 00

3G 00

25 00

SB 00

25 00

36 00

25 00

36 00

25 00

35 00

24 00

35 00

24 no

35 00

24 00

35 OO

24 on

Average Cost per ton.

Sulphite. .4:33 16.
(iround wood. .^16 .58.

Sulphite, $38.16.
(•round wood, .$24,10.

Sulphite, ¥35.00.
Ground wood, -§24.00.

EXHIBIT D. 4.

Copy of Torouto Glohe, of date 15th July, 1901.

EXHIBIT D. 5.

Copy of Toronto Star, of date 15th July, 1901.

EXHIBIT D. 6.
Copy of New York Herald, of date 16th July, 1901.

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

REPORT

ROYAL COMMISSION

CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

SESSION 1902

PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT

OTTAWA

PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST

EXCELLENT MAJESTY

1902

[No. .i4— 190-2.]

2 EDWARD VII. ' SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

PREFACE.

The Commissioners desired to examine separately the questions of Chinese and
Japanese immigration, and this method was pursued as far as practicable. In many
industries, however, both Chinese and Japanese are employed, and in most cases the
witnesses treated them alike ; so that while Part I has relation chiefly to Chinese
immigration, much that is said there applies with equal force to the Japanese in Part
II. There are certain questions, however, and certain industries peculiarly affected by
Japanese labour that require special treatment. This applies especially to the fisheiies
and to the lumber industry.

54-Ai

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

PAET I.

CHINESE IMMIGRATION

PART I.— CONTENTS.

PAGE

Letter Tr.wsmittixc Report to the Sechetarv of State xi.

The Commissions xi.

Chapter I. — Ixtroductory : —

Representations by British Colunilsia — Action taken by the Pro\'incial
Government — Acts passefl by the Legislative Assembly — Informa-
tion obtained at Washington — Dates and places of sittings of the
Commission in British Columbia — Number of witnesses examined
at each place — Plan of iu\-estigation adopted — Visit to the Pacific
Coast States — Reference to the Commissicm of 1S84 1

Chapter II. — The Chinese Immigrant : —

Early immigration — Rate of increase. — Number now in Canada — Where
they come from — Cost of living and wages of skilled and unskilled
labour in China — Chinese characteristics — Statements of Chinese
boards of trade in British Columliia as to numbers and occupations
of Chinese in the province 7

Chapter III. — Their Unsanitary Condition : —

Evidence of the sanitary inspectors of Victoria and Vancouver — A vi.sit
to ' Cliinatown ' — Dwelling.s of Chinese labourers — Are they a
menace to health 1 — E\'idence of health officers and medical men —
Summarv 14

Chapter IV. — Crime Statistics: —

Convictions in Victoria and Vancou\er — Returns fa\ourable to Chinese
— Offences largely breache.s of citv bv-laws — Statement of the
warden of the British Columbia Penitentiary — Difficulty of secur-
ing con\'ictions — Evidence of Police Magistrate Hall of Victoria as
to the value of Chinese evidence — The case of Regina r.*. Gin

Wing — Foim of trial by Chinese boards of trade '20

vi TABLE OF CONTENTS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Chapter V. — The Moral and Religious Aspect of the Case : — page

Unsatisfactory result of missionaiy work among the Chinese in British
Cohimbia — Different standards of morality among Chinese and
whites — Evidence of clergymen and missionaries — Statement of
Tom Chue Thom, Chinese missionary at New Westminster — Chinese
Girls' Home in Victoria — Statement of the matron — Evidence of
Lee Mon Kow, Chinese interpreter at customs house, Victoria —
Summary 22

Chapter VI. — Proportion of Taxes Paid bv Chi.nese : —

Evidence of the tax collectors of the coast cities — Returns made by
Provincial Government and municipal officials in other parts of the
province — Summary 41

Chapter VII. — Land Cle\ring and Agriculture: —

Cost of clearing heavily timbered land — Chinese part in this work —
Evidence of land owners, farmers, secretaries of farmers' associa-
tions, and others — American opinion — Summary 44

Chapter VIII. — Market Gardening : —

Extent to which Chinese have monopolized this industry — Numbers
employed in and around the coast cities — Statement of Lee Dye,
the principal employing market gardener in British Columbia —
Evidence of Chinese and white market gardeners — Medical testi-
mony as to Chinese methods of cultivation — American opinion —
Summary 65

Chapter IX. — Coal Mining Industry : —

Output for the year 1900 — Growth of the influstry — Vancouver Island
coal mines divided into two groups, the ' New Vancouver ' and the
' Dunsmuir ' — Number of Chinese employed — Evidence of the
general manager of the ' Dunsmuir ' mines, and of the superintend-
ent of the ' New Vancouver ' mines — Miners' views — Communica-
tion re cost of oil as fuel — Summary 71

Chapter X. — Placer Mining : —

Production up to and including the year 1900 — E\'idence of the
govei nment agent at Atlin — No Chinese employed there — Evidence
Major Dupont, Senator Raid and others as to employment of
Chinese in Cariboo — Summarv 90

Chapter XI. — Lode Mining : —

Increase since 1 887 — Chinese not employed — Evidence of mine managers

and others interested — Summary 95

Chapter XII. — The Lumber Industry (Export Trade): —

Output for 1900 — Statement of . shipments of lumber from British
Columbia and Puget Sound — Very few Chinese employed in
export mills — Evidence of managers of principal export mills —
Opinion of an employee — American evidence — Summary 97

TABLE OF CONTENTS vi

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

C.iAPTEK XIII. — The Lumber Industry (Local and Eastern Trade): — page

List of the pfincipal mills en<;ao;ed in this branch — Number of em-
ployees— Evidence of leadinjj; mill owners and manajfers — Statement
re rates of wages in the lumber mills of Washington — Summary. . 119

Chapter XIV. — Shingle Business : —

List of principal shingle mills — Number of employees — Evidence of

owners, managers and others — Sunnnary 127

Chapter XV. — The Canning Industry : —

Total pack of the Pacific coast for 1901 — Importance of this industry
in Biitish Columbia — Number of license.s issued — Number engaged
and value of plant — Other statistics — Chinese largely engaged —
The contract system explained — Evidence of canners, fishermen
and others — American evidence — Summary 134

Chapter XVI. — Domestic Servant.s : —

Difficulty of (jbtaining white servants — Extent to which Chinese are

employed — Evidence — Summary 167

Chapter XVII. — The Laundry Business: —

Chinese largelv control this business — Numbers engaged in the principal
cities — Evidence of proprietors of steam laundries — Resolution of
Nelson Laundry Workers' Union — Other witnesse.s — Summary. ,. 175

Chapter XVIII. — Part I. Merchant Tailors : —

Where Chinese encroach upon skilled occupations — Whites driven out

of the business in Victoria — Evidence 177

Part II. Wholesale Manufacture of Clothing :
Chinese displacing whites in some branches — Evidence — Summary .... 181

Chapter XIX. — Other Trades and Callings: —

(1) The manufacture of boots and shoes — (2) Cigarmaking — (3)
Brickmaking — (4) Lime burning — (5) Fruit canning — (6) Sugar
refining — (7) Cordwood cutting — (8) Railways — (9) The Canadian
Pacific Steamship Company — (10) Railway construction — (11)
Electric railways — (12) Freighting 185

Chapter XX. — I. Unskilled Labour: —

Avenues of unskilled laboui' filleil by Chinese — Evidence 204

II. The Youth of the Country :

Serious situation created by lack of emp^ovment for boys and girls —

Evidence — Summary 210

Chapter XXL — Merchants and Traders: —

Statements of Chinese boards of trade of Victoria, Nanaimo, Vancouver

and New Westminster — Evidence of white merchants — Summary. 211

viii TABLE OF CONTEXTS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Chapter XXII. — Is Firthek Restriction oh' Exclusion Desiukd ; — pa(;e

Consensus of opinion of witnesses — Letter from Rev. Dr. Thompson of
Montreal — Strength of militia in British Columbia — Chinese
opinion — Summary 217

Chapter XXIII. — Trade With China ; —

Statistics — Evidence of business men — Experience of the United States

— Summary 240

Chapter XXIV. — Anti-Chinese Legislation Elsewhere : —

In the L^nited States — Extract from the report of the Philippine
Commission — In Australia, New Zealand and Tasmania — Corre-
spondence with tlie Home Government — Summary

Chapter XXV. — Effect of E.xclusion in the United States : —

Chinese population of the Western States— Evidence of prominent
citizens of Seattle, Fairhaven, Portland and San Franc'sc • —
Summary

Chapter XXVI. — Resume

The Census — A comparison

Table of Chinese inmiigration from 1885 to 19(il
Table of Chinese in transitu from ISS" to 1901

Chapter XXVII. — Conclusion

21.5

256

263
271,
271

272

Appendix ;

Addresses of Counsel — ^Ir. C. Wilson, K.C., for the Province of British
Columbia, and ^Ir. A. D. Taylor, for the Chinese Board of Trade .

Extriicts from the report of the Philippine Commission

Hon. Oliver P. Morton "s minority report, United States Commission,
1876 "

281
305

310

2 EDWARD Vn. SE£-SIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

PAET II

JAPANESE IMMIGRATION^

PART TI. CONTENTS.

Chapter I. — Japane.se Immigration : — paoe

Stateaient of number of Japanese landed at Victoria and Vancou\er —
Immigration to Puget Sound — Japanese in the United States —
Cause of large influx — How this immigration is promoted — Wages
jjaid in Japan — The immigrant at home — Upon arrival in British

Columbia .^"27

Chapter II. — Part I. — The Fisheries : —

Number of licenses issued to whites and Japanese — Are there too
many fishermen on tlie Fraser River ^ — Opinions of canners, fisher-
men, Indians and othcials — Naturalization frauds — Export of fish
to Japan — Summarv 340

Part II. — Boat Building : —

Japanese gaining control of this industry — EN'idence of white boat-
builders — Summary .3-57

Chapter III. — The Lumber Ixdu.strv ; —

Part I. — Sawmill.s : —

Table showing pi'oportion of whites, Chinese and Japanese employed in
principal mills — Evidence of mill owners^ — Statements of American
mill owners — Comparison of wages on the Canadian and American
si<le — Summary -500

Part II. — Shingle-bolts, Mining, Timber and Cordwood: —

Japanese crowding out whites and Chinese — Evidence — Injurious eft'ect
upon settlers — Summaiy

Chapter IV. — Other Occupations : —

(1) The mining industry — (2) Railways — (3) Scaling — (4) Domestic
servants — (5) Farming, land clearing and market gardening —

((5) Tailors, .tc V '.. 371

TABLE OF CONTESTS

Chapfer V. — How Japanese are Regarded : —

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
PAGE

Consensus of opinion of witnesses — American statements — Trade with
Japan

Chapter VI. — Part I — Resume

Part II. — Conclusion ...

Appkndi.x : —

Address of Mr. R. Cassidy, K.C., on behalf of the Japanese

Report of the United States Commissioner appointed to inquire into
Japanese immigration . • : . . .

Wages in Japan, 1897

The Natal Act

.374

389
397

401

412
427
428

2 EDWARD VII

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

A. 1902

The Honourable Richard W. Scott,
Secretary of State,

Ottawa.

Toronto, February l.s, 1902.

I have the honour to transmit herewith tlie Report of the Commission appointed
to inquire into the question of Chinese and Japanese Immigration, in so far as it relates
to the immigration of Chinese.

Every interest and industry has been considered, and with each chapter is quoted
so much of the evidence relating thereto as was considered necessary to convey the
purport of the whole.

In the head note and sununary of each chapter w-ill be found a concise statement
of the facts and finrlings relating to eacli subject matter dealt with.

The evidence of course had to be all rexiewed before reaching a decision in each
case, and it was thought conducive to a full exposition of each subject matter, that a
condensed statement of the evidence upon which the findings were V)ased should be
quoted.

In the last chapters will be found a resume of the whole and the conclusiim at
which the Commissioners have arrived. The head note and summary of each chapter
and the concluding chapter fully set forth the views of the Commissioners. In quoting
the evidence especial care was taken to give the views of all parties who employ Chinese
labour, or whose interests might possibly be affected by its exclusion.

I am pleased to say that the Commissioners were unanimous in the conclusion
arrived at, as to the necessity of excluding further immigration of Chinese labourers.

That portion of the report relating to Japanese Immigration is well advanced, and
will be completed at an early date.

R. C. CLUTE,

Chairman.

COMMISSIONS.
N. E. Taschereav,

Deputy Go\'ernor General,
Canada.

Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
Queen, Defender of the Faith, &c., &c., itc.

To all to whom these presents shall come, or whom the same may in anywise
concern.

Greeting :

Whereas it appears from a report from Our Secretary of State that representations
and statements have been made by the legislature aufl people of the province of British
Columbia on the subject of Chinese and Japanese immigration into that province, as
more fully set out in the Order of His Excellency the Governor General in Council,
bearing date the twenty-first diiy of September, in the year of Our Lord one thousand
nine hunilred, a copy of which is hereunto annexed ;

And whereas We deem it expedient that inquiry under oath should be made with
respect to the said statements and I'epresentations referred to in the said Order in
Council hereunto annexed.

Now know ye that We, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada, do
by these presents nominate, constitute and appoint Roger Conger Clute, of the city of
Toronto, in the province of Ontario, one of our counsel learned in the law for the pro-
vince of Ontario, Ralph Smith, of the city of Vancouver, in the province of British
Columbia, Es<iuire, and Eaniel James Munn, of the city of New Westminster, in said

xii REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

province of British Columbia, Esquire, to 1» Our Commissioners for the purpose of
investigating the said statements and representations so made as indicated in the Order
of Our Governor General in Council hereunto annexed.

And We do hereby, under the authority of the Revised Statutes of Canada, chapter
114, intituled : "An Act respecting Inquiries Concerning Public Matter.s," confer upon
you. Our said Commissioners, the power of sunnnoning before you anv witnesses and of
requiring tliem to give evidence on oath, orallv t)r in writing or on solemn affirmation, if
tiiey are persons entitled to affim in cWil mattei's, and to produce such documents and
things as you. Our said Commissioners, shall deem requisite to the full in\estigation of
the matters into which you are hereby appointed to examine, inquire into and investigate.
To have, hold, exercise and enjoy the said office, place and trust unto vou, the said Roger
Conger C'lute, you the said Ralph Smith and you the said Daniel James ilunn, together
with the rights, powers. pri\-ileges and emoluments unto tlie said office, place and trust
of right and bv law appertaining during pleasure.

And We do hereby require and direct you to report to Our Secretarj- of State the
result of your investigation, together with the e\'idence taken before you and any opinion
you may see fit to express thereon.

In testimony whereof We ha\ e caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and the
Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed.

Witness, the Honourable Henri Elzear Taschereau. Deputv of Our Right Trustv dnd
Right Well-beloved Cousin The Right Honourable Sir Gilbert John Elliot, Earl of
Minto and Viscount Melgund of ^lelgund. County of Forfar, in the Peerage of the
United Kingdom, Baron Jlinto of Minto, County of Roxburgh, in the Peerage of
Great Britain, Baronet of Nova Scotia, Knight Grand Cross of Our Most Distin-
guished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, etc., kc Governor General of
Canada.

At Our Government House, in our City of Ottawa, this Twenty-first day of Septem-
ber, in the year of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred, and in the .sixty-fourth
year of Our Reign.

Bv Command.

JOSEPH POPE,

Under Secretary of State.

E.XTRACT from a report of the Commiltee of the Hnnoiirahle tlte Privy Council, approved
hy His Excellency on. September 21, 1900.

On a memorandum dated September 3, 1900, from the Secretary of State, sulj-
mitting that he has had under consideration the many representations made by the
legislature and people of British Columbia on the subject of Chinese and Japanese immi-
gration into that pro^-ince to some of which he desires to call particular attention.

The minister observes that at a recent sitting of the Legislative Assembly of tlu'
pro\"ince, a resolution was adopted declaring that the Chinese Immigration Act passed at
the last session of the jiarliament of Canada, increasing the capitation tax from !550 to
8100 is ineffective and inadequate to prevent Chinese immigration into Canada, and
expressing the opinion that the oulv effective mode of dealing with the question of
restricting Mongolian inniiigration into Canada would be by either increasing the amount
of per capita tax to tlie sum of S.500, or bv the passing of an Act based on the lines of
tile Natal Act, known as the ' Immigi-ation Restriction Act of 1897.'

That in the month of 3Iay last (1900) two numerously signed petitions from the
residents of British Columbia, to His Excellency the Governor General in Council,
were received, representing that between January 1 and April 1 of the present
year (1900) 4,669 Japanese landed in Victoria and Vancouver, and that durini;
the same period 1,325 Chinese landed in Victoria, making a total of nearly 6,000 witliin
the short space of four months, and alleging that the result is ' that the province is

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION xiii

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

tkioded with an uiicle.sirahle class of peojile iioii-assimilative and most detrimental to tiie
wage-earnin},' classes of the people of the province, and that this extensive immigration
of orientals is also a menace to the health of the community.'

That the petitioners assert that they are not unmindful of Imperial interests, and
while expressing feelings of the greatest loyalty to those interests, they respectfully call
attention to what they term a serious inroad upon the welfare of the peoiile of the
province and they ask that an Act may be passed inhibiting the immigration of the
above mentioned classes of people to Caiuida.

That it has also been alleged in otlier communications on the subject that there
was probability of a great disturbance to the economic conditions existing in the jiro\-
ince and of grave injury being cau.sed to the working classes by the large influx of
laboui'ers from China and Japan, as the standards of living of the masses of the people in
those countries flifter so widely from the standards prevailing in the province, thus en-
abling them to work for a much less wage.

That it is also urged that it is in the interest of the Empire that the Pacific Prov-
ince of the Dominion should be occupied by a large and thoroughly British population
rather than by one in which the number of aliens would form a large proportion.

The Minister also desires to call attention to the many acts passed by the Legisla-
tive Assembly of the Province declaring that Chinese or Japanese persons shall not be
allowed to find employment on works, the construction of which has been authoiized or
made possible of accomplishment by certain privileges or franchises granted by the Leg-
islature, which Acts have been flisallowed by reason of the discrimination including
Japanese.

The Minister submits that owing to these representations made by the Legislature
and people of British Columbia, the Bight Honourable the Premier during the last ses-
sicm of the Parliament of Canada, when introducing the Bill authorizing the increase in
the capitation tax on Chinese coming into the Dominion from .SoO to iSlOO, announced
that the government had come to the conclusion that it woulfl be wise at the present
time to follow the course adopted bj- the Government of Canada in the year 1884, and
have the complaints and statements referred to, investigated, the inquiry to include the
question as to whether the Japanese should lie treated as the Chinese were, and whether
or not they present the same objectionable characteristics as were alleged against the
Chinese and that a royal commission would l)e appointed to investigate and examine
intij the whole (|uestion, making a full report so that the views of the people of British
Columbia might be placed before the Lnperial authorities.

The ^Minister therefore reconnnends that a thorough and full investigation be made,
under a Royal Commission, intti the foregoing statements and representations, and that
Roger C. Clute, of Toronto, Ralph Smith, cf Vancouver, and Daniel J. Munn, of New
Westminster, be appointed Commissioners for the purpose of such investigation, and
that pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 114, Revised .Statutes of Canada, entitled
" An act respecting inquiries concerning public matters," they as such Connnissioners be
gi\'en the full power of summoning witnesses and requiring them to give evidence on
oath or on solemn affirmation, and to produce such documents and papers as they may
deem I'equisite.

The Minister further recommends that reasonable advance be made to the Commis-
sioners to cover living and travelling expenses, that F. J. Dean, of Kamloops, be ap-
pointed secretary to the Commission, and that for the purpose of taking such evidence
they be authorized to enqiloy a stenographer to take down the evidei»e, whose renmner-
ation shall be fixed by the Commissioners.

The committee submit the foregoing f<ir Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

xiv REPORT OF ROYAL COilMISSIOX

2 EDWARD Vli.. A. 1902
MiNTO.

CANADA.

Victoria, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland,
Queen, Defender of the Faith, &c., &c., <fce.

To all to whom these presents shall come, or whom the same may in anvwise
concern.

Greeting :

Whereas it appears from a report from Our Secretary of State that representations
and statements ha\e been made by the legislature and people of the Province of British
Columbia on the subject of Chinese and Japanese immigration into that province, as
more fully set out in the Order of His Excellency the Governor General in Council
bearing date the twenty-first day of September, in the year of Om- Lord one thousand
nine hundred, a copy of which is hereunto annexed ;

And whereas We deem it expedient that inquiry under oath should be made with
respect t« the said statements and representations referred to in the said Order in
Council hereunto annexed ; And whereas for the purpose of such inquiry, We duly
appointed bv Letters Patent under the Great Seal dated September 21, A.D., 1900,
Roger Conger Clute, Ralph Smith and Daniel James Munn, to lie our Commissioners,
and the said Ralph Smith has since resigned his said office as such Commissoner, and it
is expedient to appoint another Commissioner in his place :

Now know ve that We, by and with the advice of Our Privy Cduncil for Canada,
do bv these presents nominate, constitute and appoint Christopher Foley, of Rossland,
in the ProWnce of British Columbia, Esquire, to be One of Our Commissioners for the
purpose of investigating the said statements and representations so made, as indicated
in the Order of Our Governor General in Council hereunto annexed, in the room, place
and stead of Ralph Smith, Esquire, who hath resigned the said office :

And We do hereby, under the authority of The Revised Statutes of Canada, chapter
114, intituled ' An Act respecting Inquiries concerning Public Matters,' confer upon
you. Our said Commissioner, the power of summoning befoie you any witnesses, and of
requiring them to give evidence on oath, orally or in writing, or on solemn affirmation,
if thev are persons entitled to affirm in civil matters, and to produce such documents
and tilings as vou. Our said Commissioner, shall deem requisite to the full investigation
of the matters into which you are hereby appointed to examine, inquire into and investi-
gate. To have, hold exercise and enjoy the said office, place and trust unto vou the
said Christopher Foley, together with the rights, powers, privileges and emoluments
unto the said office, place and trust of right and by law appertaining during pleasure ;

And We do hereby require and direct j-ou to report to Our Secretary of State the
result of your investigation, together with the evidence taken before you and any opinion
you mar see fit to express thereon.

In testimony whereof. We have caused these Our Letters to be made Patent and
the Great Seal of Canada to be hereunto affixed :

Witness ; Our Right Trusty and Well-beloved Cousin The Right Honourable Sir Gil-
bert John Elliot, Earl of Minto and Viscount ^lelgund of Melgund, County of
Forfar, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom ; Baron ilinto of !Minto, Countv of
Roxliurgli, in the Peerage of Great Britain ; Baron of Xova Scotia ; Knight Grand
Cross of Our !Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, ic, itc,
Governor General of Canada.

At Our Government House, in the Citj^of Ottawa, this Eighth day of January, in
the vear of Our Lord one thousand nine hundred and one, and in the Sixtv-
fourth year of Our Reign.

By Command.

JOSEPH POPE,

Under-Secretary of State.

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

PART I.

CHINESE IMMIGEATION

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

REPORT

[.54]

OF THE

COMMISSIOI^EES APPOINTED TO INQUIRE

INTO THE

SUBJECT OF CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

INTO THE

PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA.

To the Honourable Riohaed W. Scott,

Secretary of State,
Ottawa.

We, the undersigned, having been duly appointed by a Royal Commission dated
the twenty-first day of September, in the year of our Lord one thousand nine hundred,
and by a further Royal Commission dated the eighth day of January, in the year of our
Lord one thousand nine hundred and one (appointing the undei'signed Christopher Foley
as commissioner in the place and stead of Ralph Smith, resigned) to inquire into the
svibject of Chinese and Japanese immigration, have the hcmour to report as follows : —

CHAPTER I.— INTRODUCTORY.

REPRESENTATIONS BY BRITISH COLUMBIA.

Your commissionei's are directed to investigate the statements and representations
indicated in the Order of Council annexed to the Commission. It will be therefore
necessary to shortly inquire precisely what representations and statements the people
and Legislature of British Columbia have made on the subject of Chinese and Japanese
immigration into that province.

In 1891 over 70 petition.s were presented to the Dominion Parliament, representing '
nearly every trade and calling in British Columbia and from nearly every labour organi-
zation from Vancouver to Halifax, declaring that in the opinion of the petitioners ' the
importation into Canada of Chinese labour is not in the best interests of the country and
should be prohibited, and praying for such legislation as will have the effect of totally
prohibiting the impoi'tation of Chinese labour into the Dominion.'

In lcS92 a still larger number of petitions were presented, stating that the Chinese
Immigration Act had been very beneficial, but not sufficiently restrictive, and declaring
54—1

2 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

that ' it would be in the interests of the people ' of Canada if Chinese immigration be
prohibited by law, but if that cannot at present be accomplished, that the entrance
duties on persons of Chinese origin entei'ing Canada should be increased from S50 to
$500 per head.'

Petitions of like purport have since been presented from time to time to parliament
with increased urgency.

During the session of the Dominion Parliament of 1897 a petition signed by 1,934
electors of Vancouver District, and another signed by 600 citizens of Nanaimo, and
another signed by 2,700 residents of British Columbia, and other petitions numerouslv
signed from Port Haney and from the municipal council of the district of Burnabv, the
municipal council of the city of Kaslo and the citizens of Ternon, and from other places,
were presented, declaring that the tax of S50 has proven wliolly inadequate to effect the
purpose for which said tax was imposed ; that the large influx of Chinese into Canada
is a serious menace to the prosperity and general welfare of this country and British
Columbia in particiJar, for the following amongst other reasons : ' that these Chinese
ai'e non-assimilative and have no intention of settled citizenship, are in moral, social and
sanitary status below the most inferior standard of Western life, and being~Tisually
single (the most of them being imported as coolies by labour-contracting organizations)
accept less than the lowest living wage of white labour, yet expend but little of their
scanty earnings in the land of tlieir temporary adoption.'

The petition further recites that the Government of the United States, recognizing
the great harm wrought to the citizens of the United States by comijetition of cheap
Chinese labour, enacted legislation to totally prohibit the immigration of Chinese
labourers in the interests and for the welfare of the said United States of America, and
that in other parts of the British Empire the same evil has existed, and that the im-
position of a tax of $500 by the Australian colonies has been effectual in checking such
Chinese immigration, and that the petitioners believe that the imposition of a per capita
tax of $500 would be efficacious in restricting the said immigration of Chinese, and the
petitioners pray parliament to grant relief for the existing evils.

Subsequent petitions of like purport were presented to parliament, and in the montli
of May, 1900, two numerously signed petitions from the residents of Britisii Columljia
to His Excellency the Governor General in Council were presented, representing that
between the first day of January and the last day of April, 4,669 Japanese landed in
A'ictoria and Vancouver, and that during the same period 1,325 Chinese landed in
Victoria, making a total of nearly 6,000 within the short space of four months, and
alleging that the i-esult is ' that the province is flooded with an undesirable class of
people, non-assimilative and most detrimental to the wage-earning people of the province,
and that this extensive class of Chinese labourers is also a menace to the health of the
community.'

The petitioners assert that they are not unmindful of Imperial interests, and wliile
expressing feelings of the greatest Walty to those interests, they I'espectfully call atten-
tion to what they call a serious inroad to the people of that province, and they ask that
an Act may be passed prohibiting the immigration of the above-mentioned people to
Canada. That it has also been alleged in other communications on the subject
that there was a probability of great disturbance to the economic conditions existing
in the province and of grave injury being caused to the working class by the large influx
of labourers fi-om China and Japan, as the standard of living of the masses of the people
in those countries differs so widely from the standard prevailing in the province, thus
enabling them to work for a much less wage. That it is also urged that it is in
the interest of the Empire that the Pacific province of the Dominion should be occupied
by a large and thoroughly British population rather than by one in which the number
of aliens would form a larger proportion.

ACTIOS or BRITISH COLUMBIA GOVERNMENT.

Since 1891 the Government of British Columbia have from time to time urged that
the ' Chinese Immigration Act of Canada ' be made more restrictive by increasing the

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 3

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

capitation tax and decreasing the number each \-essel ix permitted to carrj', or that
'their importation be prohibited.'

These representations were made from j-ear to year with increasing force, both by
the Executive Council of the province and Ijy resolution of the Legislative Assembly.

In a report of the Committee of the Honourable the Executive Council of Mai'ch
2, 1899, it is pointed out that 'during the fiscal j-ear ending June 30, 1898, as shown by
the customs returns, no less a number than 2,263 Chinese immigrants paid the tax and
entered Canada through the ports of this province alone, the average for the past three
years being over 2,100 per annum, and declaring that this enormous influx, together
with the [iresent Chinese population of the province, has already driven workingmen of
British race and blood out of many of the fields of laboui', and threatens before long,
if not stopped, to leave very little occupation remaining for the white labourer, and
recommends that the capitation tax should be increased to at least $.500.'

On August 1-t, 1900, the Lieutenant Go\ernor of British Columbia approved of a
minute to the Privy Council submitting certain resolutions of the Legislative Assembly,
declaring ' that in the opinion of this House the said Act is ineffective and inadequate
to prevent Chinese immigration into Canada, and respectfully urging upon the Dominion
Government that the effective mode of dealing with the question of restriction of Mon-
golian immigration into Canada would be b}' either increasing the amount of the per
capita tax to the sum of -i^SOO, or by the passing of an Act based on the lines of the
Natal Act known as the 'Immigration Restriction Act, 1897.'

Attention is also called to the many Acts passed by the Legislative Assembly of

the province declaring that Chinese or Japanese persons shall not be allowed to find

emplojmient on works, the construction of which has been authorized or made possible

' of accomplishment by certain privileges and franchises granted by the legislature,

which Acts have been disallowed by reason of tlie discrimination, including Japanese.

These are the statements and representations constituting the subject of inqui-y by
your commissioners.

VISIT TO WASHINGTON.

Desiring to obtain the fullest information upon which had been based the legisla-
tion and treaty rights regulating the question of Chinese immigration and exclusion
from the United States, Jlr. Clute, accompanied by Mr. Simpson, the stenographer of
the Commission, left Toronto on October 11 for Washington, where they met Mr. Munn,
and by the courtesy of various officials of the United States Go\'ernment obtained copies
of all state papers constituting the history of the Chinese immigration question in the
United States, including the evidence taken and the reports made under the various
commissions, and the subsequent negotiations, treaties and Acts of Congress affecting the
same, and the report of the commissioner sent to Japan to inquire into Japanese immi-
gration.

VISIT TO BRITISH COLUMBIA.

Owing to the resignation of Commissioner Smith your commissioners were not able
to proceed at that time further with the work of the Commission. Mr. Christopher
Foley ha%-ing been appointed in tlie place of Mr. Ralph Smith, your commissioners met
at Vancouver on JIarcli 6, 1901, where interviews were held with \'arious persons
representing the different interests affected, and the nature of the evidence to be brought
before the Commission was fully considered. Your commissioners then proceeded to
Victoria where they arrived on March 9.

Due notice was given in the newspapers of the sittings of the Commission, and an
invitation was extended to all who desired to give evidence to do so. The sittings of
the Commission at Victoria and elsewhere were held in the court-house by the courtesy
of the Honourable Mr. Eberts, Attorney General for the province, and the public and
the press were admitted.
■54— U

4 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Your commissioners were attended from the first by counsel : ilr. Charles Wilsou,
K.(J., representing the Province of British Columbia ; Mr. J. !M. Bradburn representing
the Chinese, and Mr. R. Cassidy, K.C., representing the Japanese.

Counsel representing the difiereut interests were consulted from time to time with
respect to the witnesses to be summoned, and were requested to suggest the names of
any witnesses whom they might think capable of giving important evidence from their
standpoint, and in every instance the attendance of witnesses so suggested was procured.

In order to solicit the fullest information and to indicate to witnesses the line of
inquiry, the following announcement was made by publication in the newspapers and
free distribution : —

The commissioners appointed to inquire into Chinese and Japanese immigration
desire information upon the following p(jints : —

It will be necessary to treat the various questions affecting Chinese and Japanese
immigration separately.

The object of the commissioners in suggesting the following subjects, is to enable
you to give them consideration before giving evidence touching such of them as may be
within your knowledge.

The commissioners will greatly appreciate anj^ information you may be able to give
bearing upon the subject.

1. The number of Chinese and Japanese in British Columbia.

2. What has been the annual immigration since 188-t ?

3. From what class in China and Japan are they principally drawn, and what was
their condition before coming here I

4. What is their character for honesty, obedience, diligence, thrift, sobriety and
morality, and keeping of contracts ?

5. How many are engaged in : —

(a.) The fisheries.

(li.) The mines.

(c.) The lumber business.

(d.) JNIanufactures.

(e.) Farming and market gardening.

(/.) Domestic service. '

((/.) Other callings.

6. What is the difference in wages paid to Chinese and Japanese, and to the wages
of white men in the same trade or calling ?

7. Has any industry been called into existence by reason of their presence ; and,
if so, what industry, and how ?

. S. Is there any industry dependent upon their labour for its continuance ; and, if
so, what industry, and why 1

9. How do they come, and under what terms ?

10. What proportion bring their wives, or marry here, or attend school or churches
or become Christians ?

11. What is their standard of living, compared with that of the wliite population,
clothing, food, rent, &c. 1

12. What is their moral and physical condition, their habits of cleanliness, and
attention to sanitary regulations ?

13. Do they live in different parts of the city or in aggregations ?

14. What effect has their residence in any place on the price of property in that
locality 1

15. What proportion live in separate houses and have families 1

16. How many Chinese and Japanese women are there in this province ; and for
what purpose and under what terms were they brought here ?

17. Are men and women brought here under servile or other contracts ? What is
their form and effect ?

18. How many Chinese companies or other associations are there ; what is their
object ? How do they affect immigration ( Have the ' six companies ' branches in
British Columbia t

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIOBATION 5

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

19. Do Chinese or Japanese immigrants take any interest in our law.s and institu-
tions 1 What proportion build up homes and become permanent citizens or residents ?

20. Do the}' learn our language, customs, habits of living, and show signs that they
will eventually assimilate and become an integral part of our race and nation, as
Europeans do i

21. How ha\'e workmen been aiiected bj' Chinese and Japanese innnigrants
respectively ]

22. How has Chinese and Japanese immigration aifected white immigration i

2.3. What proportion of Chinese and Japanese return to their own country, and
what proportion of their earnings do they take with them ? Do they enrich or impoverish
this country I

24. Are the Chinese and Japanese ' a menace to health ? ' And, if so, in what way ?

25. Has trade and commerce between Canada and China and Japan been affected
by Chinese and Japanese immigration \ And how would restrictive or prohibitive
measures affect it I

26. The effect of unlimited Chinese and Japanese immigration upon the country ?

27. As to the sufficiency of white labour to supply the demands of the country I

28. The criminal class amongst Chinese and Japanese as compared with tlie white
population : the nature of the offences ; the number of con\"ictions, &c. 1

29. The relative amount of taxes paid compared with their earning power?

30. With whom do the Chinese and Japanese trade ; and to what extent does the
country benefit therebv I What proportion of their earnings d(j they send or take
out of this conntry '

31. What proportion speak English and read and write English \

32. Do you make any distinction between Chinese and Japanese immigrants?

33. Do you favour restriction or prohibition of this class of immigrants 1

34. How do you propose to prohibit with the existing treaties in force ?

AT VICTORIA.

The first sitting for the reception of e-s-idence was held on Wednesday, March 13,
at 10 a.m. The secretary read the commissions, and the chairman briefly reviewed the
circumstances leading up to the appointment of the Commission. He referred to the
Commission of 1884 and the Act of 1885 and the amendments thereto, the last of which
increased the tax from .SoO to 8100. Repeated requests for an increase in the tax had
been made both bj- petition from the Legislature of British Columbia, and by residents
and labour unions in the pro\ince. These requests had been made since 1890, and finally
in 1900 an Act was passed increasing the tax from .?50 to $100 ; at the same time the
Premier declared the intention of the Government to be to appoint a commission of
inquiry into all matters affecting the subject of Oriental immigration. This, then, was
the origin of the Commission, which was now convened, and the chairman stated that it
was the desire of the government and of the commissioners that the fullest and freest
iniiuiry should be made. The Commission expected the cordial assistance, not only of
the provincial go^■ernment, which had been in a manner responsible for the institution
of the inquiry, but of all parties who could in am- way facilitate them in their labours.
It was the intention to treat the evidence as to tJie Chinese and Japanese separately, so
as to gi\'e an opportunity, not only to present facts regarding each, but to give each
nationality a separate hearing. To assist in the inquiry the Commission had prepared
a number of questions indicating the scope < if the inquiry, which would not, however,
be therebv limited.

After reading the aljove annovuicement the chairman said anyone, whether an in--
dividual or representing particular interests, would be given the utmost liberty to sub-
mit evidence. Further, it was the desire of the commissioners to meet the convenience
of those desiring to attend and give evidence, so that they would hold night sessions if
necessary for those who were unable to attend in the daytime. He emphasized the
necessity of eliminating hearsay evidence and said it was not opinions so much that

■/

6 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the commissioners desired to hear, but facts, on whicli the report of the Commission
could be based.

The commissioners decided to sit from 10 to 12:30 and from 2:30 to 5:30, but these
hours were almost invariably extended to 1 o'clock and 6 o'clock respectively.

At Victoria 114 witnesses were examined. The Legislature being in session, many
prominent men were in attendance from various parts of the province and occasion was
taken to obtain their ewlence. More witnesses were offered than whose evidence could
possibly be taken without unduly lengthening the sittings, and selection was made after
consulting counsel representing the different interests. Owing to the etticient services
rendered by the secretary, the commissioners were not delayed at any time for lack of
witnesses.

The evidence having been completed at Victoria on the evening of the 9th, your
commissioners left for Nanaimo the following morning, whei'e were examined 32 wit-
nesses, and concluded there on Tuesday, April 16. Here the Commission wei'e attended
by the same counsel, with the addition of Mr. James H. Simpson, representing the
Chinese.

We left Nanaimo the next morning, arriving at Union in the afternoon and opened
the Commission at 4:45 o'clock, attended by counsel as before. Examined 14 witnesses
and left for Vancouver Friday the 19th.

Arrived at Vancouver Saturday, April 20, attended by the following counsel : Mr.
Charles Wilson, K.C., foi- the Province ; Mr. J. G. Macdonell, representing the trades
unions ; I\Ir. R. Cassidy, K.C., representing the Japanese, and Mr. A. D. Taylor, repre-
senting the Chinese Board of Trade. At Vancouver 77 witnesses were examined.

We left Vancouver on May 13 for New Westminster, and were attended by
counsel i-epresenting the province, the Chinese and Japanese, as before. Here 37 wit-
nesses were examined.

On ^Monday, INIay 20, we \-isited some of the canneries on the Fraser River and ex'
amined two witnesses, returning the same evening to New Westminster. We sat for
the further taking of evidence at New Westmin.ster until 12 noon of May 21, leaving
ing at 2 p.m. for Kamloops. Nineteen witnesses were examined at Kamloops on the
21st, 22nd and 23rd. Leaving Kamloops on the morning of the 24th, we visited Ver-
non the same day, examined 4 witnesses and arrived at Revelstoke on Saturday the
25th ; examined 10 witnesses and left for Rossland on the morning of May 26 ; ex-
amined 1 1 witnesses at Rossland and left for Nelson on May 29 ; examined 7 witnesses
at Nelson and left for Sandon via Kaslo on May 30, where we examined 4 witnesses on
the 31st and returned to Kaslo by afternoon train. Examined 5 witnesses at Kaslo
and closed the e\ddence at 10 p.m. of May 31. This concluded the taking of evidence
in British Columbia.

From Kaslo we proceeded to Seattle on June 1, where we arrived on the 2nd
(Sunday), and on the 3rd held interviews with the president and secretary of the Cham-
ber of Commerce ; visited three lumber mills and interviewed the managers ; and also the
secretary of the city labour bureau, and the secietary of the trades and labour council,
and left the following morning for Fairhaven, where we arrived Tuesday, June 4.
Here and at Whatcom we were engaged all day in ^-isiting canneries and mills and
taking the statements of the managers.

We left Fairha\en on Wednesday, June 5, and arri\ed at Vancouver on the same
day. and on the following day, by request, heard argument of counsel representing the
Chinese, the Japanese, and the Province of British Columbia. Our inquiiy was con-
tinued at Portland and San Francisco, these two cities being the chief centres of Chinese
population on the coast.

At San Francisco much valuable information was obtained in regard to the
canneries on the Sound and in Alaska, and to what extent Chinese labour was there
employed. The mayor of the city, the labour commissioner, and the Chinese immigra-
tion commissioner gave very full information bearing upon the different phases of the
Chinese question. This concluded the taking of evidence on the coast.

oy CHINESE AND JAPAyESE IMMIGRATION 7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

THE COMMISSION OF ISS-t.

A reference may be had to the report of the Commission of 1884 for a more
extensive re^•ie\v• of such questions as the worship of ancestors, system of education, sale
of offices, itc, in China.

It has been the aim of the present Commission to gather all the facts obtainable as
to the number of Chinese and Japanese in the country, the quality of the immigrant, the
class to which he belongs, his habits and standard of living in his own country, the
object he has in emigrating to this country, his manner of life here, how far, if at all,
he is a menace to health, and his social and moi'al condition as a factor in tlie well-
being of the common wealtli, to what extent he has taken part in and is essential to the
development of the great natural resources of the province, the clearing and cultivation
of the land, the fisheries, the mines and the lumber industries, and to otlier trades and
callings in which he finds employment, and the nature and extent of such emplo\mient ;
and to consider the (juestion ha\ing relation to these facts, and from a national stand-
point.

It was thought expedient as far as possible to treat the questions of Chinese and
Japanese immigration separatel}^ The commissioners will, therefore, deal in the first
place with the question of Chinese immigration.

CHAPTER II.~THE CHINESE IMMIGRANT.

EARLY IMMIGRATION.

The first immigration in any considerable numbers of Chinese into British Columbia
occurred in the early sixties, at tlio time of the gold excitement in Caribou, when many
of them engaged in the placer mines in that district, and a few have continued there
ever since.

By the census of 1880-81 the total population of Chinese in Canada is given as
4,.38.3, of which 4,3.50 are credited to British Columbia, 22 to Ontario, 7 to Quebec and
4 to Manitoba.

THEIR INCREASE.

During the period from 1881 to 1884 the Canadian Pacific Railway was in course
of construction and large numbers of Chinese were brought over bv contract to work on
the Onderdonk section of the railway. Accoi'ding to a Chinese compilation made in
1884 there were in the province of British Columbia 9,629 Chinese labourers ; of these
.3,.510 were engaged on railway construction. Victoria is credited with 1,767, New
Westminster 1,680, and Nanaimo 168.

The census of 1891 gives the total number of Chinese in Canada as 9,129 ; of these
8,910 were in British Columbia, 97 in Ontario, Quebec 36, Manitoba 31, New Bruns-
wick 8, Nova Scotia 5, Prince Edward Island 1, and the Territories 41.

It will be seen from the above that the large influx of Chinese into British
Columbia during the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway was pretty well
absorbed ; nearlj^ all apparently remaining in the country, or others coming in to take
their place.

In 1901 the total number of Chinese in Canada is given by the census as 16,792,
distributed as follows : —

British Columbia *14,376

Ontario 712

Quebec 1,044

]\Ianitoba 206

* Incomplete.

8 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

New Brunswick 59

Nova Scutia 104

Prince Edward Island 4

The Territories 287

Of the above in British Columbia 2,715 reside at Victoria, 2,011 at Vancouver,
G04 at Nanaimo, 505 at Union, 738 at New Westminster, 241 at Rossland, and 391 at
Nelson.

Note. — These figures from the census do not agree with the figures obtained earlier from the Chinese
Boards of Trade, and which liave been used elsewhere in this report.

The relative increase in the population of British Columbia will be seen from the

following table : —

Whites and Indians. Chinese. Japanese.

1881 49,459 4,3.50

1891 89,263 8,910

1901 157,815 tl4,376 4,578

WHERE THEY COME FUO.M.

Nearly all come from the six or eight connties in the province of Kwang-tung in
the vicinity of Canton. This province contains an area variously estimated at from
eighty to ninety thousand square miles, and a population of over twenty millions.
Those who come to Canada are mostly of the coolie class, or farm labourers. The farms
are small, usually from a half to ten acres.

COST OF LIVING IN CHINA.

According to the witness Mr. McLean, who had li^ ed many years in China (and
who assisted counsel for the Chinese and was present throughout the investigation, and
entirely fa\ourable to them), the houses are described as costing in our money from ^o
to $15 ; the whole furniture would not exceed $o, and a man supports a familj' on $2 or
$3 a month. ' Lots of these coolies, 40 or 50, live together, and are boarded for so much
a month. Rice is the staple diet.'

Gordon W. Thomas, superintendent of mines for seven and a-half j'ears, now gardener
and rancher, and caretaker of the cemetery, who, though engaged at present in what
might be called a humble employment, is a man of large experience and travel, and spoke
from personal knowledge of the Chinese, such as come here, in China, and from a
personal experience of 20 years in British Columbia, says : As far as my observations
go I think they are a very undesirable race to be brought into this country. From my
personal knowledge we get the largest majority from the lowest order of coolie labour
from China, and I say that because I have been in China myself. I have seen them
there and I have seen them here. I say from my personal knowledge that they come
from the coolie class. There may be some from the small farmer class. I mean the
lowest order of society or people in China from the cities. There is a class of farm
labourers also, and those are the people who take hold of that class of work here. They
live here just as they live there.

Lee Mon Kow, Chinese interpreter for the Dominion Government, and who has
resided for 18 years in British Columbia, says: I figure there are about 14,000 or
15,000 Chinese in Canada; in British Columbia about 13,000. There are no Chinese
brought out under contract now. There have been no slave girls brought out since 10
years ago when the Home was started (that is the Methodist Home for Chinese and
-Japanese girls). There were two or three cases of slave girls, but the Chinese don't call
it slave. The woman agrees to come out. The man pays her, or perhaps pays her debt,
and she sells herself until the debt is paid.

t Incomplete, estimated at 16,000.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 9

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

WAGES IX CHIXA.

Bearing upon the question of wages, the following quotation from ' The Real China-
man ' \>j Chester Holcombef^Sf many yeais interpreter, Secretary of Legation and
Acting Minister of tlie United States at Pekin, will throw light upon this important
question. " Tlie word ' poverty ' does not convey at all the same idea in the two countries.
In America a man is called poor who has a family to support upon earnings of perhaps
of ^i a day. In China such a man would be looked upon as living in the very lap of
luxury. Here when the labouring man cannot att'ord meat twice daily he and those
dependent upon him are supposed to be upon the verge of hardship and destitution.
Meat is cheaper there than here. A labourer there receiving what he considers good
wages cannot afford to eat a pound in a month. Poverty here means a narrow and
limited supply of luxury. There it means actual hunger and nakedness, if not starvation
within sight.

SKILLED LABOURERS.

' Skilled labourers in China earn from 10 to .30 cents in silver each day, the average
coming below 20. Unskilled labourers or men who, in the expressive language of the
country, sell their strength, earn from .5 to 10 cents each day, the average not rising
above 7. This meagre sum in a country where bachelors and old maids are unknown,
must furnish the entire support of the man himself and from one to four or five other
persons. I have often hired a special messenger to tra\"el a distance of 30 miles for 8
cents. Boatmen are regularly hired to track a native boat, pulling it against the stream
from Tientsin to Tungcho, a distance of \'J.b miles, for 50 cents and their food one waj'.
They make the return journey on foot, that is, they travel a greater distance than that
separating Boston and New York for -50 cents in silver, and one-half of their food. To
an immense number of the people failure of work for one day carries with it as an inevi-
table sequence failure of any sort of food for the same period. From the prices paid for
labour, as given above, it is not a difhcult matter to estimate the extremely narrow
limits within which the daily expenditures of a majority of the four hundred millions of
Chinese must be kept. The difficulty lies in discovering how they live at all.

THEIR FOOD.

' Their daily food consists of rice steamed, cabbage boiled in an unnecessarilj- large
quantity of water, and for a relish a few bits of raw turnip pickled in a strong brine.
When disposed to be very extravagant and reckless of expense they buy a cash worth
of dried watermelon seeds and munch them as a dessert. In summer they eat raw
cucumbers, skin, prickles and all, raw carrots or turnijjs, or perhaps a melon, not wast-
ing the rind. In certain parts of the empire wheat, flour, oat or cornmeal take the
place of rice. With this \ ariation the descripti(-)n answers with entire accuracy for the
food consumption of the great masses of the Chinese people, not for the beggars or the
very poor, but for the common classes of industrious workingmen and their families,
whether in the great cities, or in the rural districts.'

Rev. A. H. Smith, 21 years a missionary of the American Board in China, in
'Chinese Characteristics,' says : ' One of the first things which impress the traveller in
China is the extremely simple diet of the people. The vast bulk of the population seems
to depend upon a few articles, such as rice, beans in various preparations, millet, garden
vegetables, and fish. These, with a few other things, form the stajile of countless mil-
lions, supplemented it may be on the feast daj's, or other special occasions, with a bit of
meat.

' Now that so much attention is given in Western lands to the contrivance of ways
in which to furnish nourishing food to the very poor, at a minimum cost, it is not with-
out interest to learn the undoubted fact that, in ordinary years, it is in China quite pos-
sible to furnish \\ holesome food in abundant quantity at a cost for each adult of not
more than two cents a day.

10 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

' In the northei'ii parts of China the horse, the mule, the ox, and the donkey are in
universal use, and in large districts the camel is made to do full dut)'. Doubtless it will
appear to some of our readei-s that economy' is carried too far, when we mention that it
is the genei'al practice to eat all these animals as soon as they expire, no matter whether
the cause of death be an accident, old age, or disease. This is done as a matter of
course, and occasions no remark whatcAer, nor is the habit given up because the animal
may chance to have died of some epidemic malady, such as the pleuro-pneumonia in cattle.
Such meat is not considered so wholesome as that of animals which have died of other
diseases, and this truth is recognized in the lower scale of prices asked for it, but it is
all sold, and is all eatrcn. Certain disturbances of the human organizations into which
such diseased meat has entered are well recognized by the people, but it is doubtless
considered more economical to eat the meat at the reduced rates, and run the risk of the
consequences, which, it should be said, are by no means constant. Dead dogs and cats
are subject to the same processes of absorption as dead horses, mules and donkeys. We
have been personally cognizant of several cases in which villagers cooked and ate dogs
which had been purposely poisoned by strychnine to get rid of them. On one of these
occasions some one was thoughtful enough to consult a foreign physician as to the pro-
bable results, but as the animal was ' already in the pot,' the survivors could not make
up their minds to forego the luxury of a feast, and no harm appeared to come ol their
indulgence.

' The Chinese constantly carry their economy to the point of depriving themselves
of food of which they are really in need. They see nothing irrational in this, but do it
as a mattei' of course. A good example is given in Dr. B. C. Henry's ' The Cross and
the Dragon,' He was carried by three coolies for five hours a distance of twenty-three
miles, his bearers then returning to Canton to get the breakfast which was furnished
them. Fort)'-six miles before breakfast, with a heavy load half the way, to save
five cents.

' In another case two chair coolies had gone with a chair thirty-five miles, and were
returning by boat, ha\'ing had nothing to eat since 6 a.m., i-ather than pay three cents
for two large bowls of rice. The boat ran aground, and did not reach Canton till 2 p.m.,
next day. Yet these men, having gone twenty-seven hours without food, carr^ang a
load thirty-five miles, oifered to take Dr. Henry fifteen miles more to Canton, and but
for his baggage would have done so.'

So important is the question of how these people live in China, what in short it
costs to produce a competitor of white labour here, and what he can live upon in this
country, that a few quotations from the evidence may not be out of place : —

Ewen W. MacLeau, born in Japan, lived ten 3'ears in China, Chinese interpreter,
says : The Chinese labourers come from eight districts in the province of Kwang-tung,
similar to what we call counties here. It is one of the most thicklj'-settled provinces
in China, a good agricultural district. The principal product is rice. These counties
are all adjacent to each other. There are difierent dialects in these eight counties. A
fann would be from four to six or ten acres. Tnat would supply two or three genera-
tions, grandfather and his sons and their sons and their wives and children, in a collection
of houses under one control. The oldest male member is in control and the grand-
mother if the grandfather dies, and this would apply to the father and mother. The
hou.se is a one-storey brick structure, usually made of brick out of blueish clay, a durable
brick of blueish colour, a little larger than our brick. The roof is brick tiles, and floor,
ifec, brick or clay, according to their abihty to have it. I have never visited any of
these eight counties. I don't know what the buildings there are like. They have no
heating apparatus, no stoves. Their cooking is done in an outer building in small terra
cotta stoves. There is no way of heating the houses. The furniture consists of tables,
if a small place one table, if larger, two ; stools without back, ancestral tablet and altar.
This room would be 10 by 1"2 feet ; sitting room and dining room ; two or three sleeping
apartments. The rooms are not large, four by eight or five bj' eight feet. That room
would be occupied bv farmer and his wife and small children. Board bed made out of
planks and matting over it, like the matting you put on floors. The covering is a quilt
made out of cotton batting. Generally a little window, a wardrobe like a cupboard

OxV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 11

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

with door, planed, would cost $1 or §2, bed, .?2, table, ■*!2 or $3, stools, 30 or 40 cents
apiece, washstand, 30 cents. That would fairly de.scribe the house of the farmer class
from whom these Chinese are drawn. These prices would represent Mexican money.
I can't tell the kind of buildings occupied by those who come here. The common
labourer gets .$6 a month silver, that is 63 of our money. Wages here is enormously
higher than there. You would live there for about $4 a month and live well. He would
live with a number of men. Lots of these coolies, 40 or -50, live together, and are
boarded for so much a month. Rice is the staple diet.

Alfred Dyer, an Englishman by birth, a journalist by profession, says : I have-
been a resident in China and pretty well all over the Orient and in Japan, from 1881 tO'
1895. I know how the people are engaged over there to come here, at Hong Kong and
Singapore. There are certain houses that are known as barracoon houses. They are
emigration agencies in a sense. There has been full legislation applicable to them. The
keeper of the house is usually a servant of a Chinese Company. He from time to time
procures by means of sub-agents sent into villages or cities where lahour is congested, to
get emigrants. These places are principally Swatow, Amoy, Fou Chow, Macoe, Canton
and Hainan. These are the exporting places. "These cities are in the south of China,
along the Coast and the Delta land, very highly cultivated and very densely populated.
There would be a surplus there naturally under such conditions. The men having been
recruited are brought down to these houses and are locked up in them, and money is
paid covering the expenses of recruiting, the head tax, if any, plus an advance to his
family, which the emigrant invariably demands. It is more than doubtful if the
emigrant really knows where he is going. He gets in the bari-acoon house and that is
the end. All this is fully set forth in blue books on the subject by the Colonial Govern-
ment. The Hong Kong books will show you, or the Straits Settlements. The English
official called the protector of Chinese would give the information. Well, then, it is a
matter which country wants them. Wherever they are wanted they go. Take the
tobacco plantations in Sumatra. The coolie enters into a written contract for two years
that he shall serve at a certain rate of wages, and that the advance of his employer;
which in that case amounts to •'S40 or 850, shall be deducted. He is then free, if he is
clear of debt, to enter into a fresh agreement. I know of no such contract with those
coming into British Columbia, but when I was in Hong Kong, of their coming here in
that way, I never heard it disputed. Moreover, the coolie has not got the money. The
Emigrant Company get what they can. It is a mere matter of bargain. The man who
completes the contract pays the company who has them. Say I want 100 coolies, I go
to an agent and ask what he wants, expecting to pay anywhere between .84,000 and
85,000, and he in turn makes his bargain with the owner of the barracoon house.
When I get the coolies I deduct his commission out of their earnings.

The compulsion is the urgency of his need. It was about 1895 the last I saw of it.
It is impossible for the Chinese to pay his own passage. He could not do it. He comes
because of the demand. I don't believe they or their fathers or brothers pay their way.
I don't give it credit in the least. The term ' coolie ' is used and applied to these various
emigrants. It is not necessarily a term of reproach. The question of barracoon houses
grew so large that they held a commission on them. To my certain knowledge the
Emperor's decree is disregarded. I lived in the Chinese quart^'rs in Swatow and
Canton. The people who come here if they can get work home, their earnings would
not be over .SI a month, Mexican, that is .?2 of our money. The domestic servant is of
a class above the average of the Chinese. A carpenter would get from 15 to 30 cents
Mexican siher a day, that is from 74 to 15 cents. Houses are all small, one story, and
are built of \-arying material, mud, cement and oyster shells. Inside either an earthen
floor or tiles most usually or boarded. There are always three rooms. First, one
general room, one women's room, and a guest room for men. The furniture is the same
as in Chinatown. You find adobe and half burnt brick. Such a house would cost S20
or 830 in Mexican silver. This room (the court room, about 30 by 50) would make
four houses. The allowance in Canton jail to the jailor per head was 30 cash, equal to
3 cents a day Mexican silver, that is H cents a day for each inmate. He does live upon
3 cents a day Mexican silver. The idea is communal. One sees a whole lot of planta-

12 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

tioiis and a village is communal. Li^"ing in the hou.se would be the father and the .sons
and their \vi\es. The custom and laws permit more than one wife when no son is born.
The average holdings is from a half acre up, almost wholly rice lands. The rice would
not be for their own consumption. They grow a better rice than other places. Their
clothing is homespun and home-dyed, very very cheap indeed. A man and his wife and
two children could live on four Mexican silver dollars, that is two dollars a month.

Gordon W. Thomas, above quoted, says : I have resided in British Columbia
twenty years. From my personal knowledge we get the largest majority of Chinese
from the lowest order of coolie labour, and I say that because I have been in China
myself ; have seen them there and have seen them liere. This coolie labour coming from
China, — there is a company sending them here. Thej" pay their passage and head
money coming into tlie country ; then they have to serve them till this money is refunded.
I know by what I was informed in Canton by Chinese merchants. That was in 1874.
I only know what took place then ; not now. I say from my personal knowledge of
them that tliey ci>me from the coolie class. There may be some from the small farmers'
class. I mean tlie lowest order of society or people in China from the cities. There is
a class of farm labourers also and those are the people who take hold of that class of
work here. Their home life is just like it is here. They are the filthiest, dirtiest race I
ever saw. They have little huts and some look like mud huts. I was never in a house
outside the city.

The Rev. Lewis AV. Hall, Chinese missionary at Union Mines, says : I can speak
the Chinese language. I learned it in Canada. I was in China two years. I know
from the district they come from. The coolie class border along Hong Kong. I asked
them where thev came from. I never was in a farmer's house in China.

At 2i cents per day the cost of li\-ing for 36-5 days would be !?9 . 12.',. The labourer'
income at 5 cents per day for 300 days would be 815 ; from which deduct the cost o'
living for 36.5 days at 2i- cents per day, or $9.12|, and we find that the labourer receives
as a result of his yearly earnings 65.88. Is it advisable that the labourer of this
countr_y shall be brought into competition with such conditions ?

Having seen the class from which the Chinese immigrant is chiefly drawn and his
condition in China, let us examine his mode of life and occupations after he arrives in
this country.

OCCUPATIONS.

The following statement was compiled by the Chinese Board of Trade of Victoria

at the request of the commissioners : —

No. of
Chinese.

Merchants 288

Wives of merchants and labourers 92

Male native-born children 63

Female native-born children 82

Domestic cooks and servants employed by whites 530

Market gardeners ' ". 198

vSewing machine operators and tailors 84

Saw-mill hands 48

Cannery men 886

Laundrymen (employed in 40 wash houses) 197

Miscellaneous labourers employed 638

do do unemployed 173

Females, no occupation whatever 4

Total 3,263

OiV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Chinese householders of diiFerent classes in the city of Victoria, B.C. : —

Merchants' families 4-5

Labourers' families 28

Ministers' families 1

Interpreters' families 2

Total 76

The above households include :

Merchants' wives 61

Labourers' " 28

Ministers' " 1

Interpreters' " 2

Children, native born, males 63

Children, native born, females 82

Total 237

FEW FEMALES.

It thus appears that out of a population of 3,273 there are 3,132 adult males; of
these 92 liave wives in Canada, and of the 92, 61 are merchants, 1 a minister, 28 labour-
ers and 2 interpreters. The disproportion of males to females is even greater in other
places than in Victoria.

In Vancouver there are 2,0-53 males and 27 females, of whom 16 are wives of mei-
chants, 8 of labourers, 1 of a minister, and 2 of interpreters.

In many towns and villages there are no Chinese women in a population of several
hundred Chinamen. Of a total population of 16,000 (estimated) Chinese in British
Columbia, there are 122 Chinese children attending the public schools, distributed a.s
follows : —

CHILDREN ATTENDING PUBLIC SCHOOLS.

City or District.

Victoria

Vancouver

New Westminster

JN anaimo and District

New Westminster District..
Comox

Yale.

Cariboo

Lillooett

East Kootenay .
West Kootenay.

Total.

Chinese
population

as given
by Chinese

Chinese
Children
attendinpr
Public
School.

The total population of British Columbia, exclusive of Chinese, is 161,272 ; of these
•54,500 are adult males, and 30,000 adult females, and 23,615 attend Public School.
{Note — These figures are estimated from partial census returns and statements obtained
from Chinese.)

14 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

It will be seen from the above that for every adult male there are three inhabitants,
and applying this ratio to the Chinese it should represent a Chinese population of about
48,000, of whom at least .3, -500 should be children attending the Public School : or to
put it in another way, supposing the places of 3,000 Chinese in Victoria were filled by
white adult males, under normal conditions, this ought to represent approximately a
population of from ten to twelve thousand, equal to half the present population of Vic-
toria, attending our schools and churches, building up homes, and filling all the condi-
tions of citizenship, and yielding that mutual support to all avocations and trades neces-
sary to the healthy growth of the community. It is rather a startling fact to consider
that what ought to be a mixed population of men, women and children of say ten or
twelve thousand souls, is represented by some three thousand adult males, with no family
life, no homes, no wife or children, taking no part in civic Government, nor interest in
our laws and institutions. What applies to Victoria, as above indicated, applies with
■equal force to the Chinese throughout the Province of British Columbia.

The number of Chinese in British Columbia does not convey an accm-ate idea of
the extent to which the white population is being replaced by Chinese. In a population
exclusively wlrite you would have not only their families as abo^■e indicated, but the
increase occasioned by their presence to supply their wants.

CHAPTER in.— THEIR UNSANITARY CONDITION.

The sanitary inspector of Victoria, James Wilson, referring to Chinatown, stated
that last year we burned down over 100 buildings — old wooden buildings. They (the
Chinese) had a great habit of boring holes in the floor and allowing waste water to go
through until the ground was saturated with filth. Would find half an inch of filth in
the hall and stairway. The beds are clean. There is a continual disregard of sanitary
regulations.

Robert Marrion, health otBcer for the city of Vancouver for the last sLs years, said
that with the exception of the laundries and domestic servants, the Chinese in the city
practically confine themseh^es to Chinatown. Their method of living was totally
different to that i>f white people and they scarcely patronize any but their own stores.
Their food consisted of rice, Chinese preserved ducks, eggs, vegetables, etc. The China-
man can live on a few cents a day. They herded together and cooked in one room. He
described some of the lodging houses ; — The Armstrong lodging house was a two storey
brick building with 27 rooms upstairs. The rooms were 20 feet long, 1-3 feet wide, and
10 feet high, and were capable of holding six persons in each, according to the by-law.
This was one of the best lodging houses in the city. When visited the other night all
the rooms with but two exceptions were occupied by more than six people. The furni-
ture of a room would consist of a table, six bunks, and a stove ; no more. As a rule
the six occupants would rent that room from a keeper who leased the building from the
owner. The amount paid was 83 per month per room, or fifty cents per month for each
occupant, provided no more than the proper number were allowed to use it. This was
a fair example of the manner of living among the working Chinamen.

When one got among the poorer classes one would find conditions worse. The by-_
law had been created to prevent the over-crowding which had existed. INIost difficulty
was experienced in making the Chinese conform to the by-law. They appeared to be
made for litigation, and preferred to pay a lawyer 810 than pay 81 tax.

On Carrall street there was a house of 19 rooms for .50 persons. With very few
exceptions these rooms were filled to the by-law limit. ~

The rents there varied from §2.50 to 83 per month.

In 1896 the city had to destroy several rows of Chinese houses owing to then- filthy
condition, and for the last three years it has been compelled to burn some of their houses
on ae X)unt of their dirty condition.

In 1896 the sanitary conditions of the Chinese quarters were vile, and t)ne could
hardly pass through the quaiter without holding one's nose. It was very difficult to get
•Chinese to adopt sanitary methods, even when every convenience was provided.

O.V CHIXEUE AXD JAPAXESE liliflGRATIOX 15

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHINATOWN.

In Victoria ' Chinatown ' proper is located well within the city limits, having
unusually favourable surroundings and occupying about four blocks, in which space ai-e
gathered 3,280 people, except in the summer season when many are engaged in the can-
neries.

Procuring the services of a guide, your Commissioners proceeded to investigate bv
actual observation to what extent the statements made by the press and the diiferent
witnesses examined were capable of verification.

It soon became evident that our coming had been anticipated : crowds of Orientals
rapidlv gathered on the streets, closely watching our every movement ; partially di-ied
floors, small pools of watev standing in the alleyways being suggestive of a very recent
general cleaning up.

Entering a large mercantile house, in the rear of which is located the largest opium
factory in the Dominion, we were met at the door by the proprietor, who received our
■i'isit most cordially. A large stock of goixls occupied the sheh^es on each side of the
room. Accepting an invitation extended to us by the proprietor, we were admitted into
that gentleman's private apartments, consisting of four rooms well furnished after the
Oriental style. Here we were introduced to his family, consisting of wife and three
small children. The surroundings here were sufficiently neat and orderly to satisfy even
the most fastidious taste.

CHINESE BOARDING HOUSE OF THE BEST CLASS.

Our next visit was to a typical Chinese boarding house, occupied, we were told, by
the better class of Chinese labourers, cooks and domestics. Ascending a narrow stair-
way we enter what had apparently once been a large room, some 18 x 30 feet, with a 10
foot ceiling, but which had an additional floor, occupying a position nearly midway
between the floor and the ceiling, thus making two stories out of one. The lower floor
was divided off into small rooms reached by a number of narrow hallways, each room
containing three low bunks co^■ered with a Chinese mat. In many cases a double tier
of these bunks was observed. The covering, in a moderately clean condition, consists of
a mat and one or two quilts. The second or upper floor was reached by a short stair-
way. Hei-e no attempt seems to have been made at a division of space, at least hy
partitioning, but at intervals a small mat is spread out on the floor with some regularity,
by wliieh each indi^"idual is enabled to locate his own particular claim. In many cases
e\eu a third floor exists, reachefl usually by a narrow rieketty stairway, into which the
occupant crawls upon his hands and knees. Here we found an almost entire absence of
light and -s-entilation, the occupants using a small smoky, open lamp, to discover their
respective locations, the fumes from which add to the discomfort of the surroundings.

The conditions as to style of dwellings described here conveys some idea of the close
economj' of these people in small things which enables them to live at but a fraction of
the expense necessary for the maintenance of our people of the same class.

OF THE COMMON LABOURER.

We next visited the houses (if so they may be called) of the common coolie, or what
would be the common labouring class with us, whose homes are invariably located in
the centre of the block, surrounded by Chinese business houses. These dwellings are of
the most primitive character, one storey high, usually containing one small window, and
often but one small pane of glass. The material used in construction is the commonest
rough lumber, with no attempt at architectural design or taste, simply thrown together
as if intended for but temporary occupation, somewhat resembling a railroad or lumber-
man's eam]!, and certainly no improvement upon either.

Entering a long, dark, narrow alleyway, our guide leading the way by striking a
match at interxals, stumbling along over a muddy, uneven walk, the faint glimmer of a

16 REPOUT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

light appears in the distance, emanating from a small, dirty wiuduw, i-asting a yellow
glow upon the smoky and soot-covered walls on the opposite side of the alley, revealing
a net-work of small, partly covered passageways leading in all directions through this
human beehive.

Approaching an entrance, our guide at length located the latch, antl unannounced,
rudelv pushes open the door. We enter a small 10 x 10 foot I'oom without a ceiling.
A small table occupies the centre of the room, upon which stands a small, open, badly
smoking oil lamp ; at its side an opium bowl containing a thick, dark substance resemb-
ling coal tar, which is being stirred at intervals by one of the occupants of the room,
with a small iron spoon.

Three low bunks surround the room (often a double tier of them), covered with the
usual Chinese mat, no other covering being observable : which, M-ith a stove usfcl in com-
mon, a few dishes, a stool or two and some shelving constitute the furniture of the room.
The walls are blackened with smoke that is constantly drifting around the room. The
walls and floor, which are composed of rough lumber, are absolutely bare, and the starry
heavens are observable at intervals through the roof. The bunks are all occupied, some
of the occupants apparently sound asleep, others gazing vacantly, others again turn an
idiotic gaze upon j'ou, but each hugging his pipe with a smile of security and content.
Here again we found an entire absence of any attempt at ventilation so characteristic
of those people. The atmosphere of the room is fairly stifling, the smoke from the oil
lamp intermingling with that of the opium, constitutes an atmospheric condition well
calculated to prevent a prolonged visit.

The opium habit among the Chinese seems nearly as common as the tobacco smok-
ing habit with us.

The conditions above described are worse in Vancouver, but would be a fair aver-
age in most of the cities and towns visited, and will convey a fairly accurate idea of the
habits and social conditions of the Chinese in the larger centres of population in British
Columbia. What the condition of ' Chinatown ' was before the general clearing out and
burning of the old buildings as above described must be left to the imagination of the
reader.

Of home life, except among the merchant class, there is none.

ARE THEY A MENACE TO HEALTil ?

The doctors unanimously concur in the opinion that they are. Doctor O. Meredith
Jones says : The sanitary conditions have improved in the last 3^ear. Before that the
dwellings were overcrowded and dirty ; the numerous alleyways were undermined with
pools of water. I have been asked to see five cases of leprosy. No case of leprosy
among the whites. I think it would be a good thing for the country to restrict ; I
woidd diminish the number coming in. The manures they use on their vegetables are
very dangerous.

Dr. Roderick Fraser, Medical Health Officer of Victoria, saj's : ' Chinatown ' is not
as clean a part of the city as t)ther parts, although it is much cleaner now than it was
some years ago. The whole of ' Chinatown ' is governed by by-laws the same as any
other part of the city, but it takes more to enforce the sanitary regulations tliere than
in a similar area in any other part of the city.

Q. Can you give instances ? — A. I cannot give particular instances.

Q. Why are they less sanitary than others ; do they not use water closets.? — X.
They use them in a way ; but the closets are not attended to as they should be, and
they soon get clogged up ; if a closet in a house inhabited by white people gets clogged
up, they will have it remedied at once ; but the Chinese are very indifferent : if he can
use the yard, or let the closet overflow, he is likely to do so.

Q. Have you known instances of their removing the closets ? — A. No ; I have not
known them to remove them ; but when they become blocked, I have known them to
cut a hole in the corner of the room and use it as a urinal.

Q. Do you regard the presence of the Chinese as a menace to the health of the
city?— A. I do.

Oy CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 17

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. AVliy t — A. Well, tlie Chinese are generally dii'tici' than the whiti'^. 'I'hat is a
general statement, but it is a correct one. One reason is this, if the Ciiinese had a case
of smallpox in the house his first action would be to conceal it, and he would not take
anv precautions to prevent the spreatl of the disease.

Q. Do you know about any cases of leprosy I — A. Xot in the city as fai' as 1 know ;
there are fom- lepers on Darcy Island.

Q. Anv others ? — A. Fourteen months ago one went from 8y<hiey, an<l is there
now.

(^. Is there much danger from leprosy here I — A. No, I do not think so ; with the
precautions taken at Williani.s Head, the quarantine station, the chances of leprosy
spreading among white people or becoming general among the Chinese population of
this province are very remote * * *

Q. Is it not a fact that although living in close proximity to each other, it does
not appear to have anv great effect on their general health I — A. I think it does ; I think
the Chinese ai'e more unhealthy as a class than the same class of white people ; I think
the places they live in, with the vitiated atmosphere they breathe, the bad sui-roundings
generally in \\hich they live, have, and must necessarily have, a fleleterious effect on their
health. '

Q. Would you go so far as to say that it produces disea.se of a more dangerous
character I — A. It is a good field for consumption ; it is very dangerous for the laublic
at large to have people who live in such a vitiated atmosphere going around the city
expectorating on the sidewalks, and the like ; the Chinese are very careless as to this ;
the Chinese are good subjects foi' consumption ; the streets of Chinatown are frequently
slippery from expectoration.

Dr. Alfred T. Watt, the Superintendent of Quarantine for British Columbia, in
describing the ordinary coolie, says : Their clothe.s are mostly composed of cotton goods,
that is the lower class. They bring some little bedding, a piece of matting, a blanket,
and perhaps two quilts. The whole outfit worth perhaps §5. Their age is usually from
15 to -10. Those who are older have generally been in the country before. I believe
they generally remain here five or six years and then return to China and remain for the
winter.

Q. In regard to sanitary conditions, what do you say ; are thev sanitary ? — A. I
would not consider them so. They have no knowledge what they should do. They
have no sanitary kuowlege. They simply follow their old habits in disposing of excreta
and otherwise. They live principally on rice and fish. The rice comes from China.
They deal generally with their own storekeepers.

Q. Do you think that the Chinese living as they do in their own quarter of the
town are a menace to the health of the city or not ? — A. Well, ' Chinatowns ' — some of
tiiem I have seen in this province — certainl^^ are a menace to health. Victoria's is
probably in the most sanitary condition of any of them.

Q. Do you regard Chinamen as especially subject to tuberculosis i — A. I think
they are.

Q. I have a statement here from Vancou\er in which it is set forth that 19 out of
32 deaths of Chinamen were from tubei'culosis. Do you regard that as a high propor-
tion or not ? — A. I do regard that as a high proportion. There are probablvmore than
that among the Chinese, because when they get seriously ill the Chinese will try to get
back to China. I know that. On every voyage of a vessel ruiuiing to Hong Kong
some Chinaman dies, and it is usually from tuberculosis.

Q. Do you not know there is an enormous percentage of deaths from tuberculosis
in Great Britain ? — A. I understand that probably one-seventh of the deaths are from
tuberculosis.

Q. Take the Chinese coming from a dry country, hot country, and coming to a climate
such as this of British Columbia, wouldn't tuberculosis be more ready to attack them than
the residents, the white people here ? — A. I think so ; but I think it is probably more
owing to the way they live ; thej' have not the rugged constitution to resist the attack
of disease.

54—2

18 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. I.s there any improvement you can suggest in the present regulations in dealing
with these people coming into the country ? — A. Well, the quarantine station is now
fully equipped.

Q. Have you any suggestion to make on the subject ! — A. It might be if those
people were put into quarantine before they left the other side it would prevent disease
in many cases : at least in some cases it would prevent disease developing on the way
over.

Q. In other words, you suggest if more pains were taken before they left their own
country? — A. Yes, in some cases in Japan the emigrants are held 15 days before they
are allowed to go on board the steamer, and if such regulations were enforced in Hong
Kong, it would be much easier to prevent cases breaking out on the way o^'er.

Dr. Robert E. McKechnie, Health Ofiicer of Nanaimo, said ; I am in favour of
prohibition. First, from a sanitary point of view they are an undesirable class. I am
health officer and so have an opportunity of watching them. The dwellings are dirty.
I cannot remember having seen a floor scrubbed. The sleeping apartments w-ere over-
crowded, unventilated, and often not even lighted. From a sanitary standpoint this
overcrowding, with deficient ventilation, oifers special inducements for the .spread of
disease, and on this account Chinese quarters in a city should always be looked upon as
a danger point needing watching. The plague in San Francisco is among the Chinese.
The Chinese population here consists very largely of adult males ; a few are married
and have children. In the unsanitary state or condition of a group of buildings such
as ' Chinatown ' consists of, I would expect to find a larger death rate, if the normal
proportion of children and females were present, and where the population did not
consist of adult males, the majority of them in their prime.

The doctor also stated that from personal observation he concluded that popular
report was true, which charged the Chinese market gardeners with using in a way
dangerous to health human excreta from the cities and towns. This practice was
confirmed by many witnesses.

Dr. Walkem, of Nanaimo, a resident of 26 years in the province, coronor and colliery
surgeon, said : I was health officer at Victoria. The Chinese were terribly dirty, and
the officers were bribed by Chinese to keep quiet. I would prefer to see them excluded
for a great many reasons. I have seen salads at hotels that smelt of urine. I saw a
Chinese chew up parsley and spew it into the pot for soup. I saw a Chinese to save the
floor .spit in the cover of a dish. We have the lowest coolies here. They constitute a
large percentage of the criminal class. In 1897 they constituterl a large pai-t of
criminals in the penitentiary. I was inspector at that time. One of Victoria's smallpox
epidemics was traced to ' Chinatown.' I traced it to them in Victoria. It spread to
whites and Indians.

Clive Philips Wolley said : I was executive officer of the Sanitary Commission for
the province.

Q. I suppose it then became part of your duty to inquire into the sanitary condition,
of that portion of any town or city that was inhabited by the Chinese ? — A. Not
specially, but in almost every case I found they were responsible for all the trouble.

Q. Did you ever have occasion to visit the Chinese district ? — A. Yes. I did go
into the Chinese quarters, and I found the Chinese quarter absolutely filthy — more
filthy than a human being ought to be compelled to exist in.

Q. We would like to get any special instance that you ha\e record or recollection
of? — A. A special instance I can refer to is what is found in the city of Nanaimo. I
had (iccasitin to inspect a house in a thickly pojiulated district. The house was in a
quarter populated by the Chinese. There were about a thousand Chinese living in the
place. In this house there was not sufficient cubic space of air foi- human beings.

Q. How many Chinese were living there ? — A. That I could not ascertain. There
were crowds of them living there. I do not really know how manv, fifteen in a room.
A Chinaman occupies three times as much room as j'ou cajn stand up in, that is about
the proportion.

Q. What is done with the refuse ? — A. The refuse flowed up over the floor and ran
over. The well from which a portion of the town — that portion of the town — was

O.V CllIXESE AXD JAPANESE IMMK.RA TJOX 19

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

supplied witli water, was in the middle of the street, and the Chinese filth could not help
but filter into the well, but tlie Chinese drank the water as it came from the well.

y. Were there other Chinese occupying other houses at Nanaimo ? — A. Yes ; tliey
occujiied what they callefl the Chinese quarters. I have never yet seen a Chinese house
sufficiently clean for a human being to live in.

Q. How would you describe their sleeping apartment ? — A. A board and a lilanket
and enough room to turn around in. AV'e had an epidemic of typhoid fever at Rossland
that was distinctly traceable to the Chinese. I was health inspector. Columbia avenue
was full of typhoitl fever. To m_v knowledge wherever the Chinese were you would find
lots of stagnant water. The tvphoid fever was almost entirely in one street. In the
Chinese ([uarter we found a deposit of filth underneath the flooring of e^ery house in
Columbia Avenue. It was easy to trace the typhoid to its source.

Q. Have you ever known of any serious epidemic of disease coming from the wash-
houses 1 — A. Disease coming from the wash-liouse ? I do not know.

Dr. McLean, who has been medical health oflicer for Vancouver for three years,
-■^lys : Chinatown has greatly impro\'ed in sanitary conditions during the past year or
two. Our health department is doing, I believe, all it can to make this part of the cit}^
sanitary and to keep it so, but constant vigilance is necessary. The Chinese merchants
and employers of labour endeavour to assist the health ofiicial.s, and are, as a rule, willing
to co-operate and help in this matter, but the lower classes of Chinese emigrants give a
great deal of trouble unless constantly watched. They become a dangerous element in
tlie city's jiopulation, overcrowding : un\"entilated, dark, damp and noisome places of
abode, dusty atmosjihere, laden with foul odours and opium smoke ; filthy habits, unsani-
tary surroundings, indoors and out: raw, half-cooked and unwholesome or insutticient
food, are all circumstances and conditions which predispose to infectious disease, anfl
serve to spread it i-apidlv when once it is roused into activitj'.

PRKVALEXCE OF TUBERCULOSIS.

Out of 39 Chinese deaths within a certain period, 19 were due to tuberculosis, or
5(_> per cent ; the corresponding death percentage among the Japanese was 6 • 5.

In the health report of Vancouver for the year 1900 is found the following state
ment : —

' The number of Chinese deaths within the city limits for the ten months of this
year ending October 31 amounted to 32, or about one-ninth of the whole city's death
roll for the same period, this list numbering 281. The certified causes of these 32 deaths
were : — Tuberculosis 19, bronchitis 1, pneumonia 1, cancer 1, heart disease 3, rheuma-
tism 1, Bright's disease 1, hernia 1, accident 1, typhoid 1, gangrene 1, heart failure 1.
The total city death rate due to tuberculosis for the number of months stated was 39,
the Chinese pi'oportion of this being, therefore, according to above figures, -50 per cent.
In 1899, from January 1 to October 31, there occurred in the city 2-5 Chinese deaths,
and the deaths from phthisis amongst this race numbered 18 for the whole year, out of
a total of 47, or 38 per cent. In 1898 there were 22 Chinese deaths, and in 1897, \o.'

AMERICAN OPINIOX.

James D. Phelan, mayoi' of iSan Francisco, says : I have made a study of the
subject. They have preserved all their race characteristics. Their conditions are foul
anrl noisome. They sleep in places whei-e white men could not live. They do not
bring wives here. The\' live on a very small sum. They accumulate all they can from
their wages and return to China to die there, and the Chinese who die here their bones
are sent home. There are very few Chinese women here. I do not believe there are
more than 115 out of a population of 16,000. Very few have votes, and these of course
are native-born Chinese.

Q. Have you ditficulty in enforcing sanitary regulations ? — A. Great difliculty.
Tliev positively won't keep their premises in a satisfactory condition. We have had
54— 2i

20 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

modern pluiiibing )iut in and they won't use it. We are now engui^ed in spending
§6,000 of eitv funds in improving the condition of ' Cliinatown.' We have spent over
$25,000 in ' fchinatown ' in cleaning it and putting it in a satisfactory .state, so as to
prevent tlie spread of bubonic plague. It is probably cleaner to-day than it has been
in 30 years. We have taken hundreds of ton.s of dirt and filth out of ' Chinatown ' in
a verv little while. It cost us .S60 a day to cremate that.

.SUMMARY.

From the evidence of the medical and other health otiicers it appears that the
conditions in ' Chinatown ' are such as to be favourable to the spread of epidemic
diseases, but as a matter of fact in only two instances have epidemics said to be traced
to that quarter, one in the case of smallpox at Victoria, and the other typhoiil fe\'er at
Rossland. The Chinese, however, seem to be almost immune from typhoid fe\"er. The
menace to health emjihasized bv the doctoi's is the unsanitary conditions of their
([uarters and the manner in which human manures are used in market gardening. To
quote Dr. jNIcLean : ' Their filthv habits, unsanitary surroundings, ind(.)ors andciut, raw,
half-cooked unwholesome or insufficient food, are all circumstances and conditions which
predispose to infectious rlisease and ser\'e to spread it ra)iidly when once it is roused
into activity.'

The unusual prevalence of tuberculosis among the Chinese, coupled w ith the fact
that the greater number of domestic servants sleep in ' Chinatown ' and return to work
directly from these places above described, presents probably the greatest danger from
the sanitary point of view.

All the conditions are favourable to spread the ' white plagal^' not only among the
Chinese, but through them among the white iKijiulation.

CHAPTER IV.— CRIME STATISTICS.

COMPARE FAVOURABLY WITH WHITES.

In Victoria for the year 1900 there were 596 wliites convicted, 17 sent for trial,
97 tlischarged out of a total of 710. There wei'e 116 convictions of Indians, 1 sent for
trial and 9 discharged out of a total of 126, and there wei'e only 37 Chinese convicted,
1 sent foi- trial on the charge of perjury, 14 dischargefl, out of a total of 52. Thirteen
were for infraction of the city by-law, S for stealing, 7 for supplying intoxicants to
Indians, 3 for being in possession of stolen jiropei-ty, 2 for \agrancy, 2 for drunkenness,
1 for fighting and 1 for cruelty to animals. A comparison of the returns of the other
towns is equally favourable to the Chinese.

Out of a total number of 1,596 cases in the police court at Vancouxei' for the year
1900, there were 223 convictions of Chinese : of these 133 were for breach of the city
by-law, 45 for gambling, 24 for theft, 7 for vagrancy, 2 for attempted murder, 4 for
breach of the Sunday Observance Act, 2 for drunkenness, 2 for cruelty to animals, 4 for
assault and 1 for breach of the Seaman's Act. "■■

In Vancouver, out of a total number of 145 commitments by magistrates from 1894
until October, 1900, to the Superior Court of Assize, and speedy trial, 16 were Chine.se,
and of these there were convictions in 10 cases, including one for murder, 2 for
burglary, 1 attempted shop-breaking, 1 for theft, A-c.

A large proportion of the convictions are for breach of city liy-laws, especiallv those
having i-elation to sanitation, and although the returns for the penitentiary are not so
favourable to the Chinese, yet your Conunissioners think this may be accounterl for by
the fact that the larger number wei-e sent up during the building oi the Onderdonk
section of the Canadian Pacific Railway, when there were large numbers in that section
of the country.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 21

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

From till- ri'tuni of the warden of tlie Bi'itish Columbia iieiiiteiitiary since ISTi^, it
appears that out oi a total number of 7-''>7 inmates, 151 were Chinese, or about 20,', per
cent of tlie whole, as follows : —

Shooting with intent 1

Keeping a disorderl}' house . ■ ■ ■ • 1

Receiving stolen goods 15

Rape 1

Larceny "50

Accessory before the fact of robbery 3

Wounding with intent 19

Kidnapping. . 2

Housebreaking 19

Assault i^

Assault with intent -3

Obtaining goods under false pretences 1

Stabbing 1

Unlawful wounding i

Robbery with \iolence 2

Perjury 2

Assault with intent to carnally know 1

Murder - 1

Indecent assault 1

Buggery .... 1

Maining cattle 2

In possession of housebreaking tools 1

Stealing 15

Burglary 1"

Alanslaughter 4

Setting fire to dwelling 1

Aiding ami abetting 2

Upon the whole, after careful consideration of all the esidence beai'ing upon this
question, your Connnissioners are of the opinion that the Cliinese compare favourably
with other portions of the population in I'espect to crime.

This judgment is ftirmed partly from the returns of connnittals and con\"ictions, and
is ]irobably rather too favourable than otherwise to the Chinese owing to the fact that
where a Chinese is charged with an offence it is very dilKcult to procure a consiction.
This arises from the almost utter disregard by the Chinese of the sanctity and obligation
imposed by an oath. Their evidence is declared to be almost without exception unre-
liable, except in the case of merchants and business men. It was stated by the police
magistrate at Victoria, that on more than one occasion, he was satisfied that an organized
effort was made and succeeded in defeating the ends of justice.

Hezekiah George Hall, police magistrate for the city of Victoria, since November,'
IfiOS, .says : "

Q. Do you think that from our way of administering the oath, it is looked uj.ion as
a sacred thing by the Chinese ? — A. In a great many cases it is not; in fact I have
come to the conclusion that the oath has no binfling effect on them whatever ; there was
one question I might i)erhaps be allowed to refer to here, in reading the reports of the
e\idence given here, I notice there was a reference made to Chinese having a court and
having law administered among themselves. That has on more occasions been exempli-
fied in the police court.

Q. To what extent ? — A. There is one case that might be interesting if the Com-
mission saw tit to get from the Clerk of the Peace a copy of the evidence taken in that
— the case of the Queen vs. Gin "Wing, on the 2-tth February, 1900. On that day Gin
"Wing was committed for trial on a charge of forgery. There is one feature in the case
that possibly it might be worth while to refer to ; it ap]ieared in that case that the party
was summoned or called before what they call the Chinese Board of Trade : and there

22 REPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

liad practically been a trial before the Chinese Board of Trade ; at that meeting there
was a very full attendance of the members of the Chinese Board of Trade and Gin Wing
was asked numerous questions referring to the case which was to be tried in the
christian court ; in other words, it was made very clear that they were endea\'ouring to
manufacture evidence before the Chinese Board of Trade ; almost immediately after the
meeting of the Chinese Board of Trade, av about the date of that meeting, the information
was laid against Gin Wing for perjury. After the e\'idence referring to the Couutv
Court case had been given, we found it was difficult to arrive at any conclusion : refer-
ence was made to admissions said to \\a,\e been made by Gin Wing at this meeting of
the Chinese Boai'd of Trade ; three witnesses were called to gi\e evidence as to the ad-
missions made at the same time ; it was only b\' putting together a lot of circumstances
surrounding the whole transaction, that I was enabled to arrive at any kind of conclusion
as to what had actuallj- occurred at that meeting of the Board of Trade : and par-
ticularly was it made difficult when five witnesses as to this were tendered on behalf of
the pi-osecution ; and after a time, after hearing their statements, I declined to hear any
further evidence. The counsel for the defendants did not object to the evidence at all ;
but putting together the circumstances which I was enabled to gather together, after the
e\idence of the five, it was quiet clear to ray mind that the e\'idence was absolutely
inadmissible, because this man had practically been forced to attend that meeting of the
Board of Trade, which was supposed to be attended by all the leading merchants in
Chinatown, and the e\"idence disclosed that any merchant receiving a summons was
bounfl to attend and adjudicate upon the matter.

Q. The defendant was under duress in fact I — A. He was ; it was not until the
e\ idence of the five witnesses was tendered and partly given, which I afterwards ruled
out entirely, that we found out that there were threats of violence towards Gin Wing at
the Board of Trade : that such threats were made : that an actual assault was only
prevented by one of the members going to the rescue of Gin AVing : then immediately,
or almost immediately, after forcing him to make statements at that meeting they
tendered the evidence of those statements in the police court against him. I would have
dismissed the case there and then had it not been that outside altogether of the
admissions given at the Board of Trade there was a prima facie case against him, and
no evidence was given for the defence : I therefore committed him for trial.

Q. Was he afterwards acquitted \ — A. Yes.

Q. You committed him for trial, and he was afterwards acquitted \ — A. Yes : that
was to my mind such a clear case of trial, or attempted trial, by the Cliinese Board of
Trade that I thouglit it right to mention it.

CHAPTER v.— THE MORAL A>;D RELIGIOUS ASPECT OF THE CASE.

An intere.sting fact e.stablished beyond all doubt by the evidence is that missionary
w'ork among the Chinese on the coast has met with very little success, if one is to judge
by the number of converts, and the ministers and clergy so far as we could ascertain,
with ver}' few exceptions, were opposed to further immigration of Chinese or Japanese
laboiu'ers. Curiously enough where a witness was found in favour of further immigra-
tion it was put, not upon the ground of equality or of affording an opportunity for the
Chinese to rise by reason of new conditions, but upon the ground that they were a ser-
\ ile class and a servile class was necessarj' for the higher development of the Anglo-
Saxon race.

It is difficult to make a comparison between the morality of the Chinese and that
of the white men. Their standards are different. They have their peculiar virtues and
vices. They are sober but addicted to opium, thrifty but inveterate gamblers. It is a
remarkable fact that there was only one case of assault with intent to commit I'ape and
one of indecent assault.

In Victoria there are said to be four Chinese prostitutes and one hundred and fifty
whites — and in Vancouver and other places the proportion was about the same.

ox CJflXEUE AXD JAPANESE IMMKlllATIOX 23

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The Cummission were careful to invite a full expression of opinion upon this point,
and belie\e that they obtained what may be regarded as a consensus of opinion upon
rliis question, and it is overwhelmingly against any further immigration of this class.

The Rew W. Leslie Clay, minister of the Presbyterian church at V^ictoria, says :
I have resided here seven years. We have been carrying on mi.ssion work for ten vears.
There are three white and two Chinese missionaries in the province. The Re\-. !Mr.
Winchester, the superintendent of Chinese missions, has resigned. He reported in 1899,
thirty-six Chinese as members of the church. Thej' are rather averse to Christianity.
This arises from theii' satisfaction with their own social life and a contempt of every-
thing of western social life. The converts are principally of the labouring cla-sses,
domestics and laundrymen.

Q. Do you know how tiiey are regarded by their fellow Chinese ?

A. With a great deal of antipathy. I know of some who have been cast off by
their friends and looked down upon by their neighbours, because of their having adopted
christian modes of thought and living.

I don't know of any of the educated classes of Chinese accepting christianitv. The
pre.sence of any large numbers is not desirable. I object to more Chinese. I think
that Canada should have a strong robust nation. The vast re-sources ought to afford
scope for our own people. They show no signs of assimilation with us. They can never
be assimilated, and if they could it would not be desirable.

Q. Upon what ground would you exclude any part of God's creatures from anv part
of the world ?

A. Well, I have ni>t spoken of excluding them either bv head tax or bv prohibitory
law, but self-preser\ation as we all know is said to be the first law of nature. I would
not exclufle the Chinese or any other nationality on any other ground tlian that of self-
preservation. The wisest suggestion that I have seen yet, and one that connuends it.self
to my mind, is suggested by Mr. Ellis in the ColonUtt this morning. Instead of passing
any further restrictive legislation, that the PI•o^^nce and the Dominion Government
should petition the Imperial authorities to enter into a treaty with China anrl Japan,
by which the number of immigrants from either country passing into the other should
be limited to say one hundred in a year.

Their presence here has a tendency to retard the incoming of our own people. I
have had people tell me their plat'es were taken by Chinese or Japanese. I am inclined
ti I put them in the same category. Their competition is more intense and more general.
There would be the tendency of forming a servile class. Morally they have a different
standarfl. They are addictefl to certain Wees which they flo not regard as vices. Of
their virtues, they are plodding, patient, sober, thrifty people. Gambling and opium
seem their great vices as we see it here. T don't know in regard to the social evil that
they are any more immoral than whites. I am told they are not.

In the past the Chinese have brought into the city here in a state of slavery a
great many women who were to be used bv them for immoral purposes. I know that
because it was brought to my attention by ]Mr. Winchester (the Reverend Mr. Win-
chester, superintendent of missions), ilr. Winchester was on more than one occasion
required to go to the customs authorities here when such women were coming. He had
intimation of such women being likely to come, and had to go to the Customs authorities
on several occasions in an endeavour to have such women sent back to China. There
have been charges of the kind made against Chinamen that they were bringing in
Chinese women here in a state of slavery for immoral puiposcs. At one time there were
three women brought in here whose landing ilr. Winchester sought to prevent. I
think he was unsuccessful. I would not be sure though I think that they were unable
to prove at that time that they were being brought here for immoral pui-poses. I had
nt) personal connection with the matter at all. I am simply giving you what I learnt
from Mr. Winchester. I do not know of any other case,

The w Drship of ancestors is a great part of their religion. I ilon't believe in giving
them the franchise. If we naturalized them I think the franchise ought to be given
them.

24 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

A\ e sliould keep Canada for ourselves and sucli as will assiniilate with oursehes in
making Canada a great country. 8o far as I know the Christian converts are sincere.
There are thirteen converts in Victoria. Last yeai- forty-sexen attended the week school.
There are several missions in Victoria. I would not consider e\en Chinese Christians
in large numbers desirable. The ground I take is that they seem impossilile of assimil-
ation with us. I ha\e no doubt that vice abounds in all our large cities, but it is very
apparent here.

Q. Would nt)t the whole race be much better oti' if the Chinese were left alone and
kept within their own walls in China? — A. I do not see how we could keep tiiem within
their own walls and seek to enter within those walls ourselves. I say their presence
liere in any large numbers is detrimental to the existence of our own people, and as a
matter of self-preservation some steps ought to be taken immediately to limit their com-
ing or to prohibit them altogether, l>ut it is a question invohing some other matters,
but I see no reason why we should not be able to prevent any more coming here.

Q. Would they not be justified in asking us to leave them alone when we exclude
them ? — A. I think they would.

Q. Would it be desirable in the interests of the white race to have the Chinese
remain within their own walls and ha\e no intercourse with the white people in any
shape or form? — A. No, I do not think that would be desirable. I do not think we
would be working for the best interests of the world at large in ado]>ting that course.

Q. I should like to know how you can reconcile the one thing with the other ; that
is how you can expect to go into China unless in justice you should allow them to come
into your country. — A. Certainly. I .say we cannot stop them coming in when we wi.sh
to go into their country. I have suggested that the whole matter might be arranged
by a treaty between the two Empires ; that the number of labourers passing from one
country to the other should be limited to a certain number in each year.

Q. Taking all these things into account what do you think the Founder of the
Christian religion would ad\'ise under the circumstances ? — A. I do not know just what
Christ would advise in the matter, but in what I have said here I have endeavoured to
give an interpretation of Christ's mind in the matter. I do not say I am correct in this
at all, but I have given you my conviction after careful study of the whole question.
I haxe no doubt Christ would appi'ove of self-protection.

The Reverend Elliot 8proule Rowe, Methodist Minister <if Victoria, fcjrmerly of
Toronto, has resided ten months in the Province.

Q. Have you been sufficiently long here to form an t)pinion in regard to the Chinese
question and the necessity for further restriction or prohibition, or for the further
admission of the Chinese ? — A. Well, I have formed some opinit>n, but my opinions have
a tendency to shift. The problem is a complicated one. I think their presence here has
a detrimental efi'ect. Perhaps the better way would be to say that the Chinese have
an injurious eflect upon white labour here and, of course, the Chinese have an injurious
effect upon the markets here, because they are not purchasers to a large extent of manu-
factures, and they aft'ect difl'erent lines of business in which they become actual com-
petitors with the white people. Their presence here is a decided injury to economic
conditions ; and a large number of them coming here would be a decided disadvantage
to the community ; it will be far better for the conununity and for the province that
employment in the (hfi'erent trades and callings should be given to white men who will
come here and settle and raise families here than to give it to the Oriental, who b\' his
competition, by his being able to work for low wages because of his mode of living, is
gradually driving white men out of the country.

Q. In regard to the question of citizenship ? — A. Of course any importation into a
province or into a country should have reference to citizenship : we want people here
who will take an interest in our laws and institutions and ultimately become citizens,
an integral part of our community ; such people as those who are in, not taking any
interest in our laws and institutions become a menace to the community.

Q. Do you think the Chinese as a class take any interest in our institutions one
way or another ? — A. I do not think so.

ox CHIXESE AXD JAPAXE.'^E IMMlG'RATIOX 25

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. Do you think tliey are likely to do so ? — A. I cannot answer that jiositi\ely ;
but my opinion is they are not likely to ; it seems to me the matters affecting the Cliinese
people and nation are in such a state of transition, that they ■will not be settled for some
years ; but I would judge that they have no interest whatever in our institutions.

Q. The strength of a people I suppose must largely lie in the class of people who
occu])V the various callings of life? — A. Yes, to ha\e a progressive nation there must be
an intelligent moral lower class, those who do what might be called manual or menial
work ; a class who, frugal in their habits and pure in their lives will build up a com-
munity rapidly and who will reside with us permanently, improv-ing themselves as
op]>ortunity offers * * * 1 think it is \ery injurious to the country t(j have any
class of [leople in the community who will not assimilate, who have no aspirations, who
are not Kt to live in social and political I'elations with our people ; it is certainly a dis-
advantage to the country at large to have such a class of people tilling up everv avenue
t)f labour as they are doing to-day. Their presence here has been very detrimental in
the past, and I have no doubt will continue to be detrimental as long as we have Chinese
here.

Q. What effect do you think must the continued encroachment in the various trades
and callings have upon the strength of the countrj' as a nation^ or as Canadians ? — A.
In a very large measure I should think it would be very detrimental ; the presence of
five or six thousand Chinese in British Columbia has had a very detrimental effect ; and
it has had a detrimental effect but to 'i very slight extent on the Domini(.)n of Canada as
a whole. Spread o\ er the Dominion, their numbers appeared small in compai-ison to
the population, but when the nuijority of the Cliinese are to be found in British Colum-
bia, then the injurious effect is much more appai'ent here and becomes much more
serious. A^'ere the conditions, such as they exist here, better understood in the east, I
have no doubt that action would be taken innnefliately to remove the unjust and unfaii-
competition. I think that their presence here in large numbers has a tendency to
degrade certain trades and callings, anfl white people do not care to engage even if it
were possible for them to find emphjpment in certain work, because it has been done by
Chinese ; white people think it degrades them to go into employments that have been
commonly assigned to ChiiiPse for some years. I think it is very injurious in any com-
munity to be driven to think that any work that is necessary and fair is beneath them.

Q. Your observations with regard to the Chinese question have, up until now, lieen
confined t(j theii- eft'ect on the various trades and callings. Now, looking at the (juestion
from a national standpoint, would vou favour further restriction or exclusion of the
lower or coolie labouring class of Chinese I — A. Well, it seems to me that restriction
can onh- be temporary in its effects ; I think that in the meantime there should be pi'o-
hibition : speaking from a national .standpoint, I think the general sentiment of the
people of Canada would be in fa\t)ur of the exclusion of the Chinese ; I think Canada
would be stronger by the exclusion of individuals of the Chinese race of the coolie
class.

Q. Do you think having regard to the same amount of labour expended that you
are any more likely to get converts here than in China ? — A. Apparently thev are closer
in spite of Christianity. That is my candid opinion about it.

Q. That answer would indicate that you are likely to be as successful in China as
here ? — A. Yes. I think there is as much chance of converting the Chinese in China as
there is for converting them in Victoria.

Q. Do you advocate their exclusion from the countiy ; advocate that there should
be no further innnigration here ?^A. Well, I cannot answer that in a woi'd. I believe
the reason they are a menace is that our economic system is wrong and you cannot hope
to remedy that at short notice, and their presence here will be a menace all along.
Until our methods are saner we cannot hope to have anv change in the present condi-
tions. I think it is humiliating to have to say that our system of civilization is such
that we cannot stand the competition of an inferior race, but we have to take conditions
as they exist and to work to ameliorate or improve those conditions.

Q. What would you suggest as a remedy ? — A. I confess that is hard to do. For
instance, I think that legislation should be had towards promoting production anrl

26 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOy

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the development of the mineral anrl other wealth of the country ; wlien we speak about
develojiing the country we should ha\e in view the developing of the humanity <if the
country as well as of the agricultural and mineral wealth. The wealth of a country is
more largely composed of its people than m<;)st of us would think. We might develop
our fields and mines, and the country could not be much the better, if the results of that
development were not directed towards increa-sing human happiness. While there might
be ditiieultv in enforcing it, it seems to me if there was a mininmm wage : by a minimum
wage law, and enforcing proper sanitary regulations, and regulations of the methixls of
living and regulations of the class of habitations, there would be a more eiFecti\ e method
then in force than the exclusion of any one race : it seems to me that would be more
efi!ecti\ e than the passage of a law saying to those men, you cannot come in.

Q. There are different degrees of labour : one man can do much more work in a
dav than another — why should a man who does not labour well be paid as much as the
man who does ! — ^A. If there was a mininmm wage, it is not necessary that all men
should be compelled to accept that ; but no employers should be allowed to pay less than
the minimum wage, that would be the wage of the poorest class of labour : the poorest
class would get that minimum Mage, and in competition the better man would get more.
Q. You prefer not 1^ have the Chinese get the benefit of that plan ? — A. I do not
put it forward as a plan ; if I were competent to suggest a plan that would solve the
present problem there would be no Commission. I have an objection to the idea of the
exclusion of any class of people : perhaps it is not a well-grounded objection. I would
=uggest as well as a minimum wage, that there should be some regulation as to the
sanitary conditions affecting the liWng of the persons concerned ; and I would be per-
fectly willing to have all races of men put under these conditions.

I would say Canada would be strengthened by exclusion of the Chinese race. It
has a tendency to deter white immigration. They depress wages, which tends to lower
the standard of li\-ing. They reduce the ability of others to purchase. They ignore
our religious services. Thev create a laxitv of sentiment and feeling and the social evil
is likely to increase. I think they are injurious in present numbers. If their place
was taken by white people the country would be much benefitted by the change. I
think legislation should have for its development men : development of fields and mines
only will not do. It is dangerous to have a community within a community. If they
conform to the conditions of citizenship I would admit them. They should be admitted,
if at all, only in such numbers as would prevent them being a menace to the labouring
class. Of course I could not object to mutuality. This refers to labourers only.
Judging by majority of opinions they are good domestic servants. It is more important
to develop a people than material resources. The more wealth an immoral community
has the worse it is. High wages alone will not improve morals. Morality and wealth
do not always go together. I>ow wages kill aspirations, destroy hope and ambition
and lead to vice as relaxation from toil. Po\ erty produces drunkenness. I would say
there is less poverty here than in other places I have been. The youth compares
favourably with the youth of other places for intelligence and the making of irood
citizens. I have thought the neglect of !Sabbath observance here was greater than in
any other place I have been in.

Bishop Perrin (Anglican), of Victoria, says : I have only come into personal con-
tact with two Chinese as domestics. I have found the two faithful and industrious to
a degree. We have had a missionary from China. We try to show them that
Christianity is a higher truth. We have not admitted one single member to baptism.
Several have appUed. The class is of the \ ery poorest class from China. They come
without a cent and are under obligation to those who bring them here. 5Iy opinion is
that when tlie Chinese awaken they will be ft)und all over the world. T don't think
things ought to be allowed to go on as in the past. Thev are allowed to come in and
arrive with nothing. I don't think China is advanced enough in civilization to admit
them. I think we have a distinct mission to go to China because < )ur religion is the
universal religion. If they are here we have a duty to perform. The majority <if
white people are higher in morality than the Chinese. The Chinese have a good many
virtues. Those who come here are very poor and the inference is, that is paid for by

ox CHIXESE AKD JAPAXESE IMMK.h'A TIOX 27

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Others. If the higher and better class of Chinese come here, if they are, as I belie\-e
them to be, they would remain and become good citizens, ilj' own thought would be,
the Chinese ought not to interfere with the dignity of labour in the mind of a true
ideal workman.

1 think the present immigration is not a desirable one for the country, because
they are not the best representatives of the race. The presence of a transient popula-
tion is inimical to the best interests of the country. The encroachment of these people
on the ordinary occupations of the people of the country is also a tlangerous and
objectionable condition. Hence labour sh<;)uld be respected and is always respectable.
* * * I do not think it has a tendency to degrade the better class of white labour
at all events. * * * They take the place of our people. If you can get white
labour you should get white labour. * * *

I may state while in England I was unwilling to recommend labouring people to
come to British Columbia. I am not willing now to recommend any of that class to
come to British Columbia. As it is at present the English labourer here is in a very
good position. I think the white labourer could still come here and hold his own against
the Chinaman. There is not a large number under present conditions. If he got the
wage here of a white man, he would be better off than he is in England. I think there
is a great futui'e for British Columbia when the population increases.

The Re\erend Canon Beanlands of Victoria says : I have resided here for sixteen
years. Am a clergyman of the Church of England. I have had Chinese domestic
servants. They are honest, sober, industrious and cleanly in the house. They remain
about three years. I had one young man who had sent $180 to his father by the time
he was 18, simply as an act of filial dutv. They are obedient to one master or one
mistress. You can get Chinamen from $o to 835, — fairly good about 61-5 a month.
They hate no wife here as a rule. We have had two Christian Chinamen. I think it
it very doubtful if any considerable work has been done towards theii- conversion. I
should think it very remote ground to expect to convert Chinese here. They might
better try to convert them there. We had a clergyman here and his work was quite
valueless. We then got a clergjTiian who knew Chinese and his work was more effective.

Q. How do you compare the standard of living of white people in the same calling
as regards clothing and food ? — A. That is an economic question. They have cases in
Englaiifl. I do not know whether mv opinion is worth taking. The Chinese who come
here do not cijmpare with the white men in the shops or in the various trades and callings.
The Chinese who come here ai-e a servile class. They are a class far below the lowest
mechanic or white labourer. I do not think that they compete with the white men at
all. I think the white mechanic who comes here comes to occupy a different ])osition.
He does not come into competition with the Chinese. If you take the Chinaman into
your domestic ser\ice he has to live on the same scale as the house, with a difference of
temperament, but outside the house of his white employer the Chinese as a race are
totally different from white men. The white man cannot compete with them at all.

Q. Coukl a white man bring up a family at all respectably under the conditions in
which the Chinese live ? — A. I do not think sufficient stress is laid upon theii' being a
different class. The Chinese here are a servile class. The white man here does not
live; he would not live ; he could not live as a Chinaman does. They are a special class.

Q. Why do you say that 1 — A. For instance a professional man woukl not wish to
live in the same way as a labouring man. The Chinese I have seen occupy a subordi-
nate position, a position of servility, subordinate to white employees. For instance,
you never see a Chinaman acting as a master carpenter or a master bricklayer. I ha\e
never seen a Chinaman employ a white man or come into competition with him. In
bricklaying, bricklayers employ Chinese help and they would not employ white help.
The white help would not do for that kind of work here.

Q. Why do you say that 'I — A. Because they prefer to get better paying work if
they can get it. We have got bricklayers here and have not got bricklayers' assistants.

Q. Did the bricklayers ever have white assistants ; was it not usual at one time I —
A. Not in my time.

28 REPORT OF ROYAL COMAIISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Didn't some white contractors employ white labour exclusively in their buildings \
— A. They might attempt to do so. The man who wants to come to British Columbia,
the white man, does not usually look for the lowest kind of labour such as the Chiuese
do. He mav be compelled to engage in that temporarily, but he wishes to get better.

Q. Labour, if wages are good ? — A. I do not think a bricklayer would give wages
enough to an assistant to compare with what white labour requires in British Columbia.

Q. What does a bi-icklayer get here % — A. I am told from SS to 85 a day. Other
countries ha\'e got dense populations and a certain element falls into the lowest class.
Whether we have no lowest class here it is difhcult to say. The Chinese who are here,
as I say, are a servile class.

Q. Do vou think building could not go on without the aid of the Chinese ? — A. It
would be according to what pet)ple could afford to pay. There is no doubt if labour i.s
cheap that more building would go on. There would be more brick houses. You could
make it cheap bv importing labour from other countries, but it might not be politic to
do that.

Q. Is there any deficiency in the supply of Chinese labour as here now I — A. I am
afraid I must leave that to employers to answer. I cannot say whether there is a defi-
ciency or not ; I mu.st leave that to the employers.* I think the labour market here is
^erv restrictive. It is almost a common remark that there is not very keen competi-
tion.- That is the condition that exists where there is a sufficient amount of labour to
supply the demand, but I cannot reasonably be expected to answer whether there is or
is not sutiicient labour here to supply the demand. I do not think there is an over-
supi^ly of labour in British Columbia.

Q. Do vou think if the Chinese continue to come of that class, the servile class,
that thev will remain a servile class '. — A. It will always remain a servile class.

Q. Do vou think it is in the interests of a country to have a servile class ; tliat the
working class should be divided into two races ? — A. Wliether it is in the intei'ests of a
country it is difficult to say, but take the case of the individual employee.

Q. Is it in the interest of the country to have a servile class ? — A. It has been
found in the interest of every country nearly 'at some period or another to have a servile
class employed in its development. It was chiefly servile owing to the prevalence of
what might almost be called absolute slavery, and the nearest approach to slavery in our
country is the servile Chinese — the coolie class of Chiuese we have here.

Q. As compared with our civilization would you like io see slavery here now .' —
A. Well,T am not sure that I should not.

Q. Then you think the Chinese would occujiy a position next to that, the position
of a ser\ ile class ? — A. I think the position of a free man is almost emphasized by the
existence alongside of him of a servile class like the Chinese. I think white labour is
more fi'ce bv the existence of a servile class alongside of them.

Q. Do you think a servile class has a tendency to degrade \ — A. No, I think it has
a tendency to elevate those who are servile.

Q. Do you think the exi.stence of slavery in the South had a tendency to raise the
whites there ? — A. Negro slavery is a question I would not like to discuss. I think all
through Europe the existence of a servile class at one time in its life, had a strong ten-
dency to elevate the non-ser^-ile. In Greece a very large proportion of the people were
always slaves, who did all the menial work in Greece ; and the free men, their position
was emphasized by having their menial work done by slaves.

Q. Do you think that is Christian, that Christianity teaches that ? — A. It is certain
that it has been so. It has been natural in the development of all countries.

Q. Do you think we are in a condition now that although we cannot have skvery
we may have the next best thing, servile class ? — A. I think at the present time that
the white man's positiim as a free man is certainly emphasized by the existence of a ser-
vile class, such as the Chinese.

Q. Do you think the Chinese take any part in our laws and institutions \ — A. No,
I do not think they do at all.

Q. Do you think they will ever assimilate with our jieople ! — A. No, I do
not think so. It would not be good for the country to have assimilation.

ON CmXESE AND JArAXlCSIC IMMKlllA TlOX 29

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

y. l)o yi)U think it i.s gooil fur the country to hav^e a class which will not assimi-
late and become part of the founilation of the nation '] — A. It would be \-erv bad. I do
not think the stren,i;th of a nation is in its lowest class.

Q. I mean the working man 'I — A. The working man is not the lowest class. It is
a common thing for a working man to think he i.s not the lowest class ; that he is a free
man.

Q. Do you think it is in the interests of a country to ha\'e an immigration of her peo-
ple liere who will not assimilate I — A. I think in the pi'esent state of the country it is.
I would not like to see them become <lominant. I should always like to see them as a
servile class.

Q. From which you could draw help ! — A. Yes.

Q. No intention of ele\'ating / — A. I do not see that it is our business in the least.

Q. Do you think they could go to heaven even if servile ? — A. Oh, yes ; we have ,
no class distinctions there.

Q. Is there any position where you would draw the line between common white
labiiurers and the Chinese whom you call servile { — A. I think the efforts of skilled
laboui- wdll protect that. They can protect themselves by their unions. Outside of
skille<l labour you may not have uni<ins so strong. If the labour is not sufficiently
skilled to have any union among themselves I do not see how you can restrict men.

Q. Would you prefer to have Cliinese in j)reference to English, Irish, Scotch \ — A.
I would prefer to have Chinese in preference to ha\'ing the servile class of either of the
other nations, England especially.

Q. Do you know of any servile class in England l — A. The ordinary agricultural
labour at home is in much the same order as the Chinese here.

Q. Is there no advance for him ? — A. There is advance for him.

Q. Would you prefer to have the English labourer here ? — A. If all the Chinese
could be put out of the country, and the country could be filled with white men, who
would be ])ut into a reasonable wage-earning capacity here, it w(.)uld be a go(.id thing for
the country.

Q. Then in place of a sei-\ile class you would have what here '. — A. You would have
a class of free men.

Q. A servile class tends to elevate? — A. No. I say the presence of a number of
white men has a tendency to improve the others. Suppose 3'ou put one million white
men here and no Chinese, a gi'eat many would go far below what the Chinese are here
at present and would bring down the wages terribh'.

Q. Now, if you have a servile class here, the lowest class of labour hi your opinion,
do you think that will be used to crowd the low class labourer into the higlier labouring
class! — A. No. I think the unions should protect them in that way, and they are (|uite
strong enough to do so if they are properly handled.

Q. There is a great obje(;tion to the union by employers in this pro\ince. In fact
the employers think that the unions are all wrong I — A. I think all skilled labour should
combine for its own protection just the same as professional men combine for their own
protection.

(.,). How is it that it seems to be an opinum prevalent among those giving evidence
here, that more can be done in China in the way of spreading Christianity than can be
done by Christian Vffi^rt here ( — A. Because we do not have their language ; I Ao not
think the missionaries learn their language sufficiently here to be able to give the Chinese
a proper understanding of Christianity ; I do not think the mere fact of mastering the
language to a degree here would induce them to become Christians here ; I have never
known a Chinaman to master the English language enough to be able to talk to us
intelligently, so as to enable us to impart to him the principles of Christianity. I have
tried several times. The Chinese social life is much stricter and much better regulated
than the social life of those in the same class here ; the reverence of the children for
their parents is \-ery commendable, and conjugal infidelity is much more severelj' punished
in China, than the same (jffence would be punished if conmiitted here.

The Re\-erend Lewis W. Hall, a Missionary of the Presbyterian Church to the
Chinese at Cumberland Union Klines where there are large numbers of Chinese employed

30 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

in and atjoiit the mines, .says : I have re.sided Iiere about .seven vear.s and have been a
missionary all that time. I can speak the Chinese language. I was in China two vears,
at Hong Kong and Kam Tung in Southern China. We have a mission church and
mission school here. There are only two or three Chinese children here. There are
only two Chinese families ; both are merchants. The Chinese here are not coolies, they
are farmers' sons. I know by the districts they come from and know them by their
surnames. The roll of the adults who attend school are twenty-seven, from the ages of
16 to 45. The study is the elements of English, to read and write. Few endeavour to
write. There have been twelve here who have l^en baptized. Some are now in China.
The progress made is satisfactory. If my work consi.sted of the number of men who
come into the church I would regard it slow, but from its effects I do not regard it slow.
A Chinese who becomes a Christian has the same difficulty as in China, and besides has
to contend against the present antagonism. It is immeasurably hard in both places. He
is ostracised and shut out from his family, cut off from all intercourse and in the widest
sense you can say the word, an outcast. From his en^ ironment he becomes a marked
man for all sorts of opprobiuin. From a selfish standpoint he has all to lose and nothing
to gain. That is emphasized as he ascends in the social scale. None of the converts
here are Chinese merchants. The fact of their being here is evidence of their need. I
would not favour the ft)rmation of a coolie class.

The Reverend Edwin Scott, Methodist Minister at Vancouver, says : I have re-
sided here two years. ^\'e have about eighty Chinese in connection with our night school.
It is their object to acquire English, and with many their whole object. If they come
they should be distributed over the whole province. I don't think it desirable to have
them come. They do not assimilate. It would not be desirable if they did. I have no
ill-will to those who are here, but I would see that no more came.

I do not think that the mere fact of a number of Chinese being here has much effect
in the con\ersion of the Chinese nation as a whole to Christianity. Xations have been
converted without the aid of bringing some of their people into Christian countries. I
think their presence unnecessary here from that point of \iew. My ^iew in regard to
their conversion is that we do not require any of them here in order to reach the Chinese
nation as a whole. We can reach the nation without their presence here. They have
been brought to a Christian country and being here, I think they ought to be treated in
the Christian way, and not subjected to the annoyance of boys and hoodlums. Such
conduct should not be allowed. A great many have been converted without being
brought to this countiy, and I have no doubt man}' of them benefitted by attendance at
our mission here. I know the missions in Chma are rapidly advancing, but as to the
rate of advance I can't state. I think we can reach them much better at iiome than
through the Chinamen who ai'e here.

My sister organized the first missionary work in Chicago and converts went from
there to China as missionaries.

Q. Do you believe in the universal brotherhood of man ? — A. I do, I believe in the
conunon Fatherhood of God.

Q. Would you deny the right of one class of men to any portion of this earth I — A.
The nations are here. We are not universal nations yet. Universal nationality and
universal brotherhood are two different tilings. We would like to see universal Christ-
ianity, but that seems to be still in the distant future. There are distinct natitmal lines
and it may be those lines will exist until judgment. I do not expect to live to see a
great approach towards the universal brotherhood of man, although poets have dreamed
of it.

Q. ^Tiat right ha\"e nations to take exceptions to the rights of men 1 — A. I suppo.se
that no objection would be taken by any nation to the inhabitants of another country
coming there in small numbers : then it will be pei'fectly right to care for them as
Christians ; but when it comes to an immigration by thousands, affecting the industrial
work of the nation, then I think tiie national government have a right to protect their
own people, and to send such a large number of aliens back to their own land.

Q. How would that affect the. missionary work I — A. We must view it from a na-
tional standpoint. It would affect it very little from a national standpoint. It won't
affect the missionary work.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 31

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

It is a ditterent thing' when small numbers of a foreiini nation (-ome here from that
of a flood of aliens overrunning a small part of our great Dominion. If we could Hood
the labour market in China with thousands from America there would be the same
question on hand in China that j'ou have here now, and it would not afl'ect the religious
question at all.

Q. Do you think the Chine.se coming here has no influence in spreading Ciiristianity
when he returns ? — A. My impression is that the Chinese who return from hei'e have
very little influence in China as to Christianity.

I think as a nation they stand nearer to Christianity than some othei- nations. The
labour market here is congested. I should prefer to see the white men doing the work
of tills pro\ince. We ha\-e to draw our support from the labouring people, and these
are aftected because labour can be obtained so cheaply. I am a British subject.

Tlie Reverend Roderick George IMcBeth, Presbyterian Minister at Vaneou\er,
says : An alien race which refu.ses to assimilate is more or less a menace. Icelanders and
Swedes readily assimilate. I think we ha\'e all the Chinese we can digest. Looking at
this question we must regard the future. Our children must have room foi' livelihood.
I can't say I see much dilference between Chinese and Japanese. I don't know the
nature of the missionary work in this province. I do not consider restriction affects the
question of missions. As to domestic servants, there are more avenues opened out than
ever before. Tliese foreigners have come in and taken up that work, and it has caused
white .servants to lea\e it and take up other employments. Domestic service is lield in
low esteem and will so continue until we get some schools of domestic .science. I have
I'esided in British Columbia a little over a year.

The Reverend John Reid, jr., Minister of the Independent Pre.sbytei-ian Church,
sa3's : I have been in British Columbia over three years, and in Port Tow)isend
(Wash.) for twenty years, and in California. My opinion is that it would be preferable
to exclude for a season all Chinese immigration. There niay come conditions when it
wt)uld be well to relax, but we are not now assimilating this element. Personally I
have no prejudice against any race or colour. I do net think it is good for many of them
to come to this country. They congregate and the property in that locality deteriorates
because of the difference in the standard of living. As a race, until their religious con-
cepts are changed, I don't think they will assimilate.

I have not known here of youths being contaminatefl by Chinese, liut it has
occui'red on the other side. The impression made upon the mind of Chinese on
the West Coast has not been favourable. A missionary carries the life with him. Here
the professing christian sometimes treats the Chinese outrageously. In conversation
with missionaries I have been informed that the greater portion of those who come here
are coolies and the lower agricultural class. I am pi-etty sure there are not sutheient
ser\-ant girls here to meet the demand. I found the Chinese verj- efficient, honest and
reliable as domestic servants.

The Reverend Dr. Roland D. Gi'ant, Baptist Mini.ster, says : I have been ten years
on the coast, from here to Mexico. I was .six years at Portland. Was previou.sly pastor
in Boston, where we had one hundred Chinese children. In Portland we had a Chinese
membership of one hundred, two Chinese deacons, including a member of the six com-
panies.

If the Cliinese were to accumulate here numbers would have to count. Their assimi-
lation is almost forbidden by their segregation. I have known a few of the brightest
Chinese to marry white people. There is a want at least of real fitness.

In 1880 Portlanfl had a population of 20,000, of which 6,000 were Chinese. Now
there is a population of 1(X"),000, and 5,000 Chinese. The Exclusion Act did not inter-
fere with the friendship of China. I think a people ha\e that moral riglit (i.e. to
exclude). If they could intermari'y that would be the settlement and the only settle-
ment. I never could find but two Chinese women in Bostim. The .spirit of exclusivene.ss
remains the same after conver'sion as Ijefore. I do not think an Exclusion Act here
would produce any shock. It would be quiet antl unobserved. It would be beneficial to
the Chinese here. I don't think the Chinese goverimient would find any fault. They
have no more prostitution tlian whites. They compare favourably with whites as law-
abiding citizens.

32 REPOBT OF UOYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

If you go down to the root of the matter it must centre itself in the question of
the fainily. The Chinese coming liere as they are coming, without famihes, must have
a deteriorating tendency, and the cc mcHtions under which the Chinese live here donot f a\-our
the introduction of their families. Restriction lias a tendency to develop the family-
more iu the long run, but if the families in Portland have increased in the time I have
known them, I think 1 would have detected it, the -SlOO will not keep them out. It
might make some difference in qualit}'.

The Exclusive Act did an excellent work. It lielped to a .liendly relation with
China. It did not interfere with trade with China.

John Perry Bowell, Methodist Minister of New Westminster, says : I am a clergy-
man, a Methodist Minister. I am a native of Newfoundland, and have resided in
British Columbia since 1883. I have been in the upper country four years and the
balance of the time on the coast — at Cowichan, Saanich, Chiiamch, Surrey municipality
and New Westminster. I consider the large innnigration of Chinese and Japanese to
be detrimental to the labour interests of the country, because certain a\-enues of indus-
try that could be worked by white labour are largely controlled and in tlaiiger of being
monopolized by Chinese and Japanese. I refer particularly to the milling industries and
the fisheries. In regard to the milling industries I have knowledge of persons in my
congregation who desired employment and were unable to secure remunerative employ-
ment. This refers to unskilled labour. While this is so, it is not so marked as in the
case of the fisheries on the Fraser. I am personnally acquainted with a large number
of fishermen who came to this province with the expectation of finding profitable em-
ployment in the fisheries on the Fraser and the deep sea fisheries too. Those who came
.several years ago succeeded to their own satisfaction ; sevei'al of them secured plots of
land and built for themselves houses ; a fair proportion of these wei'e not only fishermen
but skilled mechanics, carpenters, ship buildei's, boat builders especially. Since the
infiux of the Japanese these same pec:)ple are dissatisfied, are S(_imetimes in straightened
circumstances, have to run over the province seeking employment and fear that they
will have to leave the country. Nearly all of these are men with families. Those who
have come recently were led to do so by the reports of the comfort (not prosperity) of
others, and have been bitterly disappointed. Some have speedily left. Many whom I
am persuaded would have gladly left New foundland and made their homes in this pro-
vince could not now be induced to come here if they knew the facts. They could only
be indu ed to come by a garbled or untruthful statement, and it would be criminal to
influence them. When I first came to the coast I saw the conditions that prevailed in
regard to the fisheries of that time. I felt sure that it would be to the avantage of the
province and of the Newfoundland fishermen if they could be induced in large numbers
to settle here, and only my knowledge of the circumstances of the people lacking money
in Newfoundland hindered me from urging them to come. Wliile present conditions
prevail, I have no desire to induce the Newfoundland fishermen to come to this country.
One cause of this is the influx of the Japanese, partly Chinese — mainly the Japanese.

I think on account of the increased cost of living the condition of the unskilled
labourer here is no better than that of the unskilled labourer in the east, that is in
Newfoundlaiul, and in some instances it is worse. A man out of employment in the
east has not the irritation of seeing foreigners doing the work that would otherwise be
open to him. I think the presence of Mongolians has the effect of practically stopping
white immigration. With few exceptions the Chinese have not advanced to our mode
of thought and living. I regard them as a menace to our future well-being as a nation.
We would do without any more with advantage. I know with regard to boys who,
durinc the busy fishing season, have their holidays and would willingly work in the
canneries, they are debarred from doing so from the fact that the Chinese here have the
preference. I have known this to affect my own boys as well as others. They employ
them an hour or two a week. I . have had two boys go down day after day and week
after week and perhaps earn twenty-five or fifty cents a week. I don't know to what
extent Chinamen are employed. It would not inconvenience those canneries near cities
where there are enough boys attending school to do the work. Our vacation is from
the last of June to the end of August. 1 think the main run is about the beginning of

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 33

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

July. From my experience in the ea.st, if fishermen's faniiHes (as a rule they arc large)
were .located near the canneries the population that would come to the province would
meet the necessities of the case. 1 am not familiar with the cannery business^ but am
with the fishing business.

Q. If 1 were to tell you that in a large cannery the total work of the Chinamen
only equalled nine men for 300 days, what would you say ] — A. If the fishermen were
on tlie river then this small work could be done by boys. It would help them. I have
known boys work till 2 o'clock in the moi'ning in a rush.

The river last year was practically occupied by Japanese. With the large number
of Japanese on the river it would not be wise to advise fisliermen to settle on the river.
In Ne\\foundland the shore fisheries have become defunct, the fish do not come to the
shore.

Under present conditinns they have to pay a larger price for fish than they did pay
before the influx of Orientals. I am not convinced the industry would suft'er by a limita-
tion of the fishermen. If it did injure it I might, if interested, kill the goose that lay
the golden egg. I should say there would be 100,000 men, women and children engaged
in the fisheries in Newfoundland. I think cod can be cured here. I think the glimatic
conditions are more favourable here. The present .system makes against the family. I
think it ought to be treated as a national question. It is a legitimate matter for legis-
lation. I make a distinction between Chinese and Japanese. The Japs' superiority
makes them a greater menace to labour. The Chinese as a rule are industi'ious and
sober. I have thought the fact that Chinese cultivated land that would not
otherwise be cultivated, is beneficial from an economic point of view. I don't think
there is enough labour at present to replace the Chinese on inside work. In
isolated cases they may be sincere in adopting Christianity, but for the most part
it is to learn our language to enable them to secure work. A farmer must have
some employment away from the land to enable him to live, especially if he has a
famil)". Lands are held by capitalists or lockerl up in some way. The normal condition
would be for fishermen to occupy lands which would not fully support them, and they
would gradually clear up the land and be enabled to support their families partly by
fishing. It is where such conditions prevail in Newfoundland that the condition of
fishermen is the best.

Tom Chue Thom, Chinese missionary of New Westminster, says : I came to
Canada nineteen yeai's ago like the rest of my fellow-countrymen ; came quite young,
with my uncle. I travelled through Eastern Canada and four or five States of America
twice. I have visited a good many Chinatowns for the last fourteen years. I have a
practical knowledge of our Chinese condition of life in many cities of the Pacific Coast.
I was convertefl over sixteen years ago. I have been engaged as a missionary of British
Columbia for the last nine years. Most all Chinamen in Canada to-day have come from
Canton province. Many of us come directly from villages of different districts about
a hundred miles from Canton City. Here we have four distinct dialects amongst the
Chinese in the province, but generally use two dialects between four districts, or three
districts' dialect. Yes, most of them came to this country quite young ; they follow
their elders and mothers or relatives and friends. Yes, most come here without
profession. Most of us have a few years' school in China, more or less. If their parents
are well to do, tliej' give their son a liberal education, but the Chinese study cannot
compare with English system. Most Chinamen here are farmers' sons. Regarding the
cheap labour concern, the Chinese have been useful to every new country, especially to
capitalists and landowners. They have reaped their benefit in the past. I think you
Canadians (jught to thank God to have the Chinamen here to do the manual work for
you. Chinamen have been opening up many agricultural lands in the province. Some
of them get pay for their labour ; most cases not. If they do get pay for it, it won't
be much, but the improvement is left here to you forever. Chinamen are born agricul-
turists. They are accustomed to make the very best of the soil. They are industrious
people, honest, frugal and persevering. Whatever undertaking agreement of contracts
always kept faithful in their promise. They keep up their reputation of the time of
honesty. They are very filial to their parents. Many of them deny themselve.s pleasure
■.5-1—3"

34 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

ti) enable them to send money home to support their family and aged pai-ents. Yes,
there are good qualities in Chinamen, but this is not perfect in us. The chief sin of our
race in this country is to set up a monument of Chinatown wherever thev go, bad
example, gambling and opium smoking. Set up the diti'erent tongues to quarrelling and
fighting amongst themselves. Import slave girls to sell for prostitution. Love their
dead friends more than their live ones. They worship the graveyard three times a year,
educated or uneducated, young or old, rich or poor, enliglitened or not enlightened.
Ride steam engines and locomotive cars every day in this country, but most of them
believe mountain, winds and water gods, their dead friends preventing and opposing
railways aud steam locomotives in China. By observation they ought to know better.
In God's view notliing good in us. I don't mean in New Westminster here at
present. Chinamen here are much better people than in any other Chinatown,
but I am speaking from experience during the last ten or fifteen years. By
nature all Chinamen desire high wages, but in actual skilled labour thev are
not worth mucli in the market. It is true that the Chinese physically are not
strong as Europeans, but just true as a Pole, Chinamen are able to bear the hardships
and suffering more than the Europeans. Yes, there is good quality in them. They
are always willing to work. They prefer light work, such as laundry and housework,
because it suits their strength. The health of our race don't look as strong as they
ought to be, because they eat too much pork and those old dry Chinese foods. Most
indigestion foods are used that gives no colour in their face. Those who live on
European food are much more healthy than the others. They do this through ignorance.
In tlie matter of trade, they prefer their own people. My opinion is, if the Chinese,
when they first come here, adopt the custom and laws of the country, living, dealing,
socially like Europeans, there would be no more anti-Chinese question to-day. If my
fellow-countrymen only knew what they are li\'ing in this earth for, the world would
have nothing against us to-day. If they knew, the condition of life would be much
better to-dav. I am sorry to say we are not living up to the time of civilization. We
are a hundred miles away from other nations. If they were less anti-Christian and
obeyed the laws and customs of the country, I am sure Chinamen would stand just as
good as other nationalities to-day. The trouble is they are not. I wish they had
thirty or forty years ago. The missionaries have done a great deal of good amongst
the Chinese on the Pacific coast here. Not only chief sinner converted to God, but
also broke down the lively tongs of Highbinderism, and stopped the importation of
Chinese slave girls for immoral purposes. Missionaries have a good prospect of future
work among Chinese on the Coast cities here. The Methodists have a Chinese mission
church here. We have fifteen members : two of them are merchants. We also have
about forty to fifty Chinamen attending our night schools through the winter. We
have a pretty good attendance at Sunday services. There are about fifteen Chinese
boys attending public school in the city here — sixteen Chinese families. The greatest
influence amongst Chinese is the Middle Kingdom Association, supposed to belong to
all classes of Chinamen in the province. This is mostly composed of merchants as a
board of trustees and president. The headquarter is in Victoria. The second is Chee
Kung Tong, known to the Europeans and called Chinese Secret Society. Their head-
quarters are in Victoria, too, but they have branches in every Chinatown. I think,
more than one-half of the Chinamen in Canada are members. Then the Chinese Empire
Reform Society, their intention being to learn the western methods and laws of govern-
ment, but all of them are idolatrous and ancestral worshippers, followers of Confucius.
Most of the good standing members have no interest to inquire into Christianity.
Now we have a handful of Chinese Christians here and there in the province,
belonging to all denominations. Some have proved faithful to their new religion,
but some have received little English education from Chinese mission school.
Thev may have a false profession of Christianity to deceive the white. I believe
the more converted Chinese we have, the laetter citizens you will have. I know
the unconverted men, and the money-maker out of Chinatown, thev don't want to
see Chinamen get converted, because they are ashamed of themselves, or they can't
cheat them as easily as the unconverted ones. I believe there are Chinese

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMKiRATION 35

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

enough to fill the demand of lab(.iur in thi.' country at prci.sent. I favour restriction
and regulation, but not taxation. I think it a great sin to any government to put a
head tax on any nationality coming into the country. It is not righteous in the law.
A Christian nation broke the treaty of a heathen nation. It is a disgrace for the
British emjiire. It is all right for a government seeking power, but there was no
I'ighteousness. Oh, I wish the government saj', you Chinamen cannot come to Canada,
theii stop the Chinese at once. If the government allow us to come under taxation,
they ought to permit us to do the public work. I think it is very cruel the waj* the
government treat the Chinamen, but after all on account the heathen Chinese they
deserve it. They bear it well, but the Christian is not willing to bear it. This proves
in one sense the converted Chinese are worse than those unconverted ones. Well, I
wish the government would make some little change in method of collecting revenues
from our Chinese. It will do the Chinaman good and benefit the country. That is,
put a heavy tax on the Chinese food, instead of head tax. History shows that China-
men are bound to live on Chinese food and use Chinese goods. The government will
not lose any revenue from head tax, but in the long run will deri'v-e more tax from the
Chinese. If our Chinamen were willing to abandon tlieirhaljitsand customs they would
be good citizens to the countiy, but I do not think tlie Chinese will ever assimilate with the
Canadians — cannot under present situation. I wish the government would allow those
naturalized Chinese, having educational qualification, the privilege of the fraTichise —
treat them as men, as British subjects. They ought not to issue naturalization papers
to applicants, while the government do not consider them citizens. I hope the govern-
ment will liave more conscience to make righteous laws.

Reverend Alexander Brown Winchester, now residing in Toronto, pastor of Knox
Presbyterian Church, formerly resided in British Columbia, from April, 1892, to Dec-
ember, 1900, said : I was superintendent of Chinese missions in British Columbia in
connection with the Presbyterian Church, with headquarters at Victoria. Organized
Chinese mission work in British Columbia and established three permanent stations, at
Victoria, Vancouver and Union Mines ; also three sub-stations, at Westminster, Ross-
land (for the Ivootenay district), and at Extension Mines, Vancouver Island. In
addition to these mission stations a number of schools were conducted by the church
throughout the province, at which adult Chinese attended. These schools were in some
instances night schools for secular insti'uction, and in others Sunday schools for religious
instruction. Approximately the number of Chinese who joined the church during the
period of my ministration was not less than thirty, and possibly as high as thirty-six.
When I left Victoria there were fourteen Chinese adherents of the church and five or
six more had returned to China. In Vancouvei' at this time the number of Chinese
adherents was eleven or twelve. Mr. Clay was doubtless correct in stating that I had
placed the number of Chinese converts in British Columbia in 1899 at thirty-six.

I was for two years a missionary in North China. Church work in China cannot
be compared with the work in Canada. The difference of country, of peojjle with cen-
turies of different religion from our own ingrained in them, the difference of language,
added to the difficulty of getting the connnon people interested, owing to the lack of a
public press as we understand it, and of anything like public opinion, were chief among
the hindrances to church work. Xt every point the differentiation was wide and bridgeless
and made comparison impossible. From some points of view the conversion of Chinese at
home was immeasurably more hopeful of accomplishment than in thisciiuntry. A missionary
in China was likel}^ to gather around him as a result of his efforts tenfold more adherents
than here. On the other hand, quality of materials conditions the work, and it may Ije
that one convert in this countrj' who had imbibed the spirit of our institutions would
be worth more than the larger number in China. Such a convert who returns to his
own country, and in ninety-nine cases out of one hundred, so far as Presbyterian Church
converts are concerned, becomes a propagator of the truths of Christianity. Of course
many more Chinese could have been accepted into the church in British Columbia
during my ministration, but I would only consent to the baptism of those I was con-
vinced were thoroughly sincere in their conversion.
54— ;H

36 KEPOET OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Of those who became members of the Presbyterian Churcli in British Cohimliiatwo
were of the merchant class ; the others were principally domestic servants and laundry-
men. From a moral standpoint it is difficult to draw a comparison between Chinese and
white men. Their standard differs from ours. Much that we consider moral shocks
them, and vice versa. This difficulty is accentuated by the conditions under which the
Chinese live in British Columbia, their isolation and social ostracism. Of those person-
ally known to me, converts and attendants at the mission, I believe their moral fibre to
beof as goc;d quality as that of whites of the same class, allowing of course for the dif-
ferent standards.

In all that goes to make commercial honesty the Chinese, I know, were the equal of
those of the same strata of society among ourselves. As to personal purity, I know of
Chinese of clean lives, and also of another class, but they were not any more impure
than men of cei'tain sections of white society.

The pi-esence of Chinese in Biitish Columbia in some cases affects the white wage-
earners favourably, in others, prejudicially. If Chinese were coming into the country
in large numbers I would favour restriction. I would not favour restricion of Chinese
alone, but would restrict a large influx of foreigners from any (juartei'. I would base
terms of restriction upon character and education. A foreign emigrant should be able
to read some European language ; should come into the country for some stated
purpose, and should show some reasonable prospect of becoming a permanent citizen. I
do not approve of differentiation between one person and another in the matter of per-
mancy of residence. I would like some form of declaration from all foreign immigrants.
I would not consider a residence of five years a satisfactory term of settlement.

As a rule Chinese who have been in the country fifteen or twenty years remain all
their lives. A few may return in their old age to be buried there.

As a missionary, I considered it my duty to deal with the fact of their presence in
the country and did not question whether or not there was an advantage in having them
here. The simple fact was, here are souls to be cared for. Neither missionaries nor the
Church have moved a finger to bring Chinese into British Columbia. I have known of
cases where converts have been made to suffer for their con\ersion. Whilst they have
not been subjected to as severe treatment as in China, owing to the deterrent effects
of our laws, their sufferings here have been of a vexatious, though petty nature, save in
two instances where relatives at home implored friends here to secure their recantation,
and as a result they were socially ostracized, their custom cut off, property stolen, and
one of them threatened with assault, from which I was happily ;ible to save him.

From inquiries made of Chinese I fancied not many came with the intention of
remaining. Their idea was to make a competency and return to China. I have met
Chinese who had expressed a desire to become citizens, but who clauned they could not
do so and maintain their self-respect. In explanation they said they could not bring
themselves to belong to a nation that treated another nation so unfairly, instancing the
unwarrantable attacks made upon Chinese in the press. Some Chinese who had
become naturalized, hoping to obtain relief from this treatment, had been disappointed.
There is hope of Chinese becoming permanent settlers if treated the same as other
nationalities. At present Chinese allege that they are afraid to liring their wives and
children to this country.

I speak the Chinese language. I do not think fear of whites influences Chinese
conduct here. They are naturally law-abiding and in China are even better behaved
than here. The ((uestion of assimilation is wholly conjectural.

I have known of happy instances of intermarriage. The number of Chinese in this
country who have intermarried with whites is greater than the number of Jews who
have intermarried with Gentiles. It is possible that the coming here of Chinese in
large numbers might result in bringing about conditions similar to those now prevalent
in the Southern States. There are worse elements among sections of the European
races who are admitted to this country than among any class of Chinese, who are always
amenable to our laws and never foment trouble. I do not think Chinese would ever
come to Canada in such numbers as to present a serious problem. In my opinion the
feeling now prevalent against Chinese in British Columbia was due to a variety of

ox CHINESE AND JAPAXESE IMMKIRATIOX 37

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

causes ; — 1. Clash of two civilizations ; "2. Alleged unfair competition with white wage-
earners : 3. Political. A certain class of politicians make use of the Chinese question
to iniiame the minds of ignorant voters, and thus influence their votes. I would not
say that the white labouring classes have no grievance against Chinese. If it could be
established that white workingmen were prevented from raising their families decently
because of Chinese competition, there .should be no further debate of the question. So
far as my experience goes it is not true that the Chinese work under any form of
contract. They are free to work as they wish. The statement that they come to this
country as serfs is not correct, so far as I could learn. It is probable that if Chinese
in British Columbia affected the earnings of the professional classes in the same manner
and to the same extent as they affected the white wage-earners, the professional classes
would be as hostile to them as are the wage-earners.

In the matter of restriction, I would prevent persons of any nationality coming into
Canada under certain conditions. Immigrants should be able to present a clean bill
from their own countrv and undergo a reasonable educational te.st. If persons of certain
nationalities presented a greater or more serious objection as immigrants than others,
that might justify special treatment. Where Chinese have come under healthful influ-
ences in Canada they have rendered good account of themselves. Was not the conclu-
sion warranted therefore that under proper conditions Chinese might become good citi-
zens.

Chinese who come to Canada are from the province of Kwang-tung. The term
' coolie ' is of Indian rleri\ation. and applies to a certain class of labourers, a certain class
or caste, and in my interpretation of the word, there are no coolies in China. Most of
the Chinese in Canada come from small crofter farms or farm villages. Many belong to
farming villages without being farmers. Many of them are sons of farmers and farm
labourers. This class is not indigent as a rule, the average of them belonging to the
poor farm working class, not the lowest class generally speaking. The poorer houses of
this class are built of adobe with thatched roofs, and the better houses of burnt bi-ick
with tile roofs. A poor Chinese laboui'er can live in China for $1 a month, Mexican.
Clothing would not be included in this estimate. Students at Canton college were
known to live at the rate of f 1, Mexican, per month.

I have been in Japan. I do not wish to express personal views concerning the
Japanese. I desire that Canada should be filled from shore to shore with oui' own kith
and kin. At the same time I believe that the land should be free to all, irrespective of
race, creed or colour, provided they became amenable to our laws and institutions.

I estimate there are about three hundred Chinese in Toronto, seven or eight
hundred in Montreal, about one hundred in Ottawa, and smaller numbers scattered
throughout othel' towns and villages of Eastern Canada. The Chinese in Toronto are
chiefly engaged in laundry work. There are some few house servants. The average
Chinaman in Toronto was superior to the average on the Pacific coast. I do not
think this is due to the fact that only the brightest Chinese came east, as any
Chinaman could get travelling expenses advancerl if he coulfl show reasonable prospect
of repaying same and would give the necessary bond. I think the superiority of the
Chinese in the east is due to better treatment.

I do not approve of the suggestion that Chinese should be admitted to the country
to enable emploj'ers to cope with the alleged tyranny of labour. As a matter of fact I
do not concede that there is such a thing as the tyranny of labour. Both sides,
employers and employees, made mistakes ; but to say that labour was tyrannical was
wrong.

There was some call in Toronto for Chinese as domestic servants. The supply of
female help is scai-ce. The reason for girls preferring employment in offices, stores and
factories rather than in domestic service is due more to higher social aspirations than
to any consideration (jf paj- ; possibly, too, the treatment many girls met with in
domestic .service influenced their choice. I have heard of the proposed importation of
negresses from the Barbadoes for domestic servants. I believe it to be the duty of
employers to give preference to white servants ; but if the supply is not adequate, it is

38 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

justifiable to seek other sources. Chinese as servants are all right, but where there are
children a female servant is best.

RESCUE FOR CHINESE GIRLS.

The commissioners desire to place special emphasis upon the work tlone bv iliss
Morgan and her assistants in rescuing Chinese and Japanese girls brought over really
as slaves and held for purposes of prostitution. The law prohibits this traffic, but the
difficulty is to enforce the law and rescue the victims. The officials have been greatly
helped in this by JNIiss Morgan and her staff of workers. It is, we think, largely' owing
to her eiTorts that this infamous barter in humanit}- has been checked, if not almost
stamped out. Her method of work is best described in her own language :

I am teacher and evangelist in the Chinese Girls' Home, Victoria. The home has
existed about fourteen years. We rescue Chinese and Japanese girls from houses of ill-
fame. There have been reached forty Chinese and eiglit Japanese from a life of shame.
Of these Chinese rescued twenty-two have been married. There are now four in the
home. Some have returned to China. Three h&ve gone back to their former life. Their
ages were as follows : 24, 23, 23, 22, 24, 19, 14, 13,"^ 10, 26, 13, 13, 21, 9, 4.5, 19, 15, 10,
7, 14, 14, 7, 24, 20, 20, 24, 21, 16, 24, 5, 18, 1-5, 16, 20, 28, 16, 36, 19, 18, 13. Those
all married Christians except two. 1 don't think any of them were wives in China
before they came out. Three were sold as slave girls, being kidnapped in China,
according to the girls' statement. I have no papers showing those sales. All have
shown a desire to become Christians. They have been baptized. The only women who
attend the meetings are those who have gone through the mission homes. The progress
is very slow in christianizing the Chinese. When I first came here it is five years ago — I
am well received now, when then I was hardly tolerated.

I don't think immigration unrestricted is advisable. It is not so to the Chinese,
and I know it is bad for the country. From what I know of Oriental character, I
think better Christian teachers can be made in China than here. A Chinaman will
profess to become a Christian to get a wife.

Many or all who attenrl the night schools do so from self-interest.
Studying the ([uestion all around it may seem a harsh thing, but I think restriction
the very best thing. Among the lower classes they look up to the wealthy classes ;
they are influenced by what they say, so that we have not much chance. Take any of
the men who profess to be Christians, thev are nt)t brave enough to go opposite to their
superiors.

I think there are more than four Chinese of ill-repute in town. A woman now in
the home says 24, and this is the number I made out without reference to her.

The home has expended since I came, in Elsie's case $270.00 and in Dorothy's case
$120.00 for law costs. I have had some terrible experience with the Japanese similar
in kind to the Chinese. Only one case of sale I have heard of. Sometimes it takes
some time to find them. One was helped from the window and ran away with her
lover. Unless they want us to help them we can't help them. The home is supported
by the AVomen's ISlissionary Society of the Methodist Church. I think the women of
Japan are superior. There is no slavery in Japan.

I see no signs of the Chinese adopting our mode of life. I think they are a menace
to the public from their way of living, the way they hei'd together.. In Japan they have
individual homes.

The Japanese pi'actise polvgamv ; they call them ct)ncubines. The children of the
concubines ai'e thought as much of as the chikh'en of the wife. I had difficulty in
rescuing the woman now here. She is now about 38. She was crjang and I got a
policeman to assist me. She seemed like a demented creature. AVe got her trunk and
followed by Chinamen we got her into the Home. She was an ojjium smoker and used
tobacco, and she was a prostitute. In case of the youngest one in home, she was 13
years old. She came to the home on June 30 last. We found she had run away. It
was contested in the court and cost us .$120.00 to get her.
I do not trust one of them for truthfulness.

ON CHINESE AND J A PANEtiE IMMIORA TION 39

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Our niarriefl Christian girls are establishing a home life vastly superior to that of
Chinatown. I would not trust a j'oung brother or sister in the custody of a Cliine.se or
Japanese. The Japanese license prostitution, and the quarter of the city set apart for
that class of women is not looked at as we look at such places here. The girls of ten go
voluntarily. It is not looked on as a disgrace.

The Chinese here treat me \ery courteously. I have never had an imjiolite wind
said to me. I have been in lanes and alleys night and day.

I believe there is some restriction in Japan now.

In this connection we would als<j quote the evidence of Lee Mon Kow, Chinese
interpreter at the Customs house, Victoria, a resident in British Columbia since 1882 : —

Q. Speaking about the Chinese women coming here of their own free will, do you
know it to be a fact that Chinese instead of coming of their own free will have come
here under contract, in fact that they have come here as slaves ? — A. Since about ten
years ago se\"eral cases have been brought up as to Chinese women coming here who
might be called slaves by the white people, but in China we do not call them slaves,
because it is simply- this, that women make arrangements with men to come to this
country ; the women cannot atford to pay the head tax or the passage mone)^, and the
men supply them with their expenses and the men pay the fare in China and make
arrangements for them to come out to this country, and the women undertake to pay a
certain sum at a certain time, to repay the passage money and the head tax and seven
per cent interest.

Q. Is that a Certificate (See Exhibit 17) of a case of the kind, you see the name
thei-e, a well knciwn name, and the photograph and the figures ! — A. Well, that is
simply a statement of a money transaction between two parties.

Q. That has relation to a gii'l, the name of the girl is on the right hand sirle, is the
amount of money paid for the girl there 1 — A. There is a statement here from May 29,
the balance, $309.06, there appears to be cash advanced on the property, a piece of
property, .S28.25 and money loaned, $20.00, also money loaned from Kang Shong $30.00,
the total amount of money represented is $397.31. Paid for Woon Ho, $302.00, June
7 paid f(jr clothing, $■''.00, also [laid foi' a leather trunk, $4.00. Woon Ho is the name
of the girl.

Q. Do you make out that that was a case of sale of the girl ? — A. Yes, the tran-
saction was a sale ; I was trying to describe that.

Q. And the amount paid for the girl ? — A. The amount paid for the girl was .1302.

Q. Can you make out from that how long she required to serve to get freed from
that amount l — A. It does not state here at all.

Q. Can you tell what that implies l — A. It is a case like this, generally they pay
back all this money ; in this case it is one where she would ha\e to pay back $373.50
with interest, and then she would be free.

Q. Until age did that, until slie jiaid back that money with interest the contractor
would consider he had a right to her li(.)dy service ; that is the business ; prostitution]
— A. That is the business.

Q. He practically buys her for the time until he is fully repaid i — A. Yes.

Q. To that extent she is his slave until the money is repaid ? — A. Yes.

Q. How many cases of that character have you known of here 1 — A. Since I have
been in the country here I have not heard of more than three cases.

Q. Do you recognize the name there as the name of a firm that is in business here ?
— A. I do not remember the name now ; the statement is made out by Kum Kee in
that case.

Q. Do you think that business is pretty well stopped now ? — A. It was well stopped
several years ago.

Q. There is a case being tried in court at Victoria now, isn't there ? — A. That is
the case of a w'oman who came out bv herself of her own free will. Exhibit 17 is the
contract. In the case of the woman being tiied at Victoria, thej^ stopped that woman
under the new Act, that she was a prostitute anfl living as a prostitute, that is not for
slavery.

40 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. On the chara;e oi beiiiu ii jnostitute. the proceedings were taken under the Act ?
—A. Yes.

SrjIMART.

The rehgious and moral aspect of the question was carefully inquired into, and
evidence has been quoted here .somewhat extensively in order to show clearlv and
unmistakably the trend of opinion on the subject of many leading ministers of various
denominations in British Columbia.

The opinion is practically unanimous that the work of christianizing the Chinamen
in this country is not attended with as satisfactory re.sults as similiar work in their own
country. The chief reason adduced for this state of affairs is that converts become
marked men among their compatriots and are .subjected to all manner of petty persecu-
tion. How etfectively this penalty of ostracism hinders all efforts to Cliristianize Chinese
in this country %%'ill be readily understood when the following well-established facts are
taken into consideiation.

The Chinese in this country are almost exclusively from one section of China, that
of the six counties within the province of Kwang-tung. While there is no conclusive
c\idence of their having Ijeen brought here under any form of servile contract, it has
been shown to our satisfaction that their resident merchant class exercise a strong influ-
ence over the immigrants of the labouring class, and largely control the numbers com-
ing into the country. There are, too, Chinese Boards of Trade in the several cities of
the province, whose objects are not confined solely to the advancement of trade, but
enter very largely into all the aifairs of the immigrant after his landing in this country.
Then there is the far-reaching influence of the Chmese Benevolent Association, the
object of which is to care for the sick, indigent and aged, and it may be stated here that
there are but few cases on record where Chinamen have been known to have to depend
upon the bounty or charity of a white community. It follows, therefore, that with a
Chinaman to adopt Christianity in this country means to cut Jiimself off from any hope
of participation in the advantages which these associations and conditions provide, in
addition to incurring the enmity of his fellow countrymen and without gaining favour
to any appreciable extent with the white population, for, from a social point of \ iew, a
converted Chinaman's position in a white community is no better than that of the un-
converted. Although in one or two cases it was made clear by the witnesses that they
did not wish to measure the success of missionary work by the numbers concerted either
in Canada or China, there was no dissenting voice as to the relative futility of attempt-
ing the conversion of the Chinese nation by permitting them to come into this country.
Where individuals will adopt and profess the Christian Faith, here there was hope for
whole ct)mmunities in China, and less likelihood of indignities and persecution being
inflicted upon them there. The standard of moral character of the Chinese, differing as it
does from our standard, renders it impossible to draw any fail" comparison between them.
For instance, their laws and customs recognize plurality of wives, and four such cases
were found among the Chinese in Victoria. Certain it is they have many noble virtues
and characteristics. There are customs amongst us which they from a moral point con-
demn as much as we do many of theirs. Generally speaking, they compare favourably
with others in their observance of law and order. There is little doubt but that to the
frugality of their habits can be attributed the comparative absence of sensuality. The
consensus of opinion is, that they will not assimilate witli our people and it would not
be desirable if they did. In one instance, it is true, a reverend gentleman declared that
they were desirable in the country only as a servile class, and that such a class would
tend to elevate the condition of the white people in the pro\'ince ; but the great majority
of the witnesses were positively opposed to a servile class, or to their introduction in any
way that would tend to degrade t>r effect the welfare of the white labouring class. Under
this heading, therefore, your Commissioners are bound to stat* that in no appreciable
measure will the missionary work with tlie Chinese as a nation be affected, and that the
well-being of the poorer class of white people will Ije tiie better maintained, by an Ex-
clusion Act.

O.V CHIXKSE AND JAPANESE lilM KlUATIOX 41

■SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Having ivgai'd to the efficient work and praetieal assistance in caiTving out the hiw
rendered by Miss Morgan and iier assistants, and believing tliat the law has been made
efFectixe chietly through this instrumentality, the Commissioners feel justified in recom-
mending that st)me recognition of this work should be made from the revenue derived
from the Chinese head tax, to assist in enforcing the law through this means as long as
it mav lie found necessary.

CHAPTER VI.— PROPOKTION OF TAXE8 PAID BY CHINESE.

It is difficult to ascertain the proportion of taxes paid by the Chinese and Japanese
in British Columbia, nor did we fully succeed in df)ing so. We obtained, however, a
large amount of information at different points, from which the plain inference seems to
be that, except the merchant class, they do not pay anything like a fair [iroportion of
taxation.

MUNICIPAL TAX.\TION. — VICTORIA.

W. P. Winsby, tax collector for the citj' of Victoria, said : I collect the re\enue,
road, and dog taxes. The revenue tax is the tax which principally affects the Chinese.
They (the Chinese) try to evade the tax in every possible way. It is an utter impos-
sibility t<.) trace them. I don't get as fair a proportion of taxes from them as from the
whites. At the present (March, 1901) I have collected from Chinese I suppose to the
number of one thousand. That is for last year. That is about one-fourth of the number
in ^'ictoria. There are numerous difficulties in the way of collecting the tax from the
Chinese. No one can understand the difficulty except those who have had a little ex-
perience in it. A great majority of the Chinese are in such straightened circumstances
that they are unable to pay the tax, and another reason is that it is almost impossible
to trace the Chinese with their mode of living and so forth. You cannot trace them.
Y'^ou cannot bring them to justice. I believe the law says they should call at the office.
It has become the practice that we go after them. Very few people come to pay in the
office. I have to round them up. They do all they can to evade the payment of taxes
and succeed to a large extent. The Chinese come to town in the winter and as soon as
weather permits they go to work on farms around the city, and then in the summer they
go to work to the canneries. These men are very hard to trace and they often succeed
in e\ading payment of the tax. When a Chinaman is working in the city I can
generally trace him and get his tax, but you go into one of the ho\'els they live in, it is
utterly impossible to find out who are living there or who the goods there belong to. It
is no use asking them. I have never found a Chinaman truthful as to that. You can
go through and ask the Chinaman there where they live and you cannot get an answer
from one of them. ,

Q. Do I understand you to mean that they systematically deceive you to evade
paying the tax ? — A. Yes.

Q. Is that true of them as a class ? — A. Yes.

Q. Is the difficulty with the Chinese because j-ou do not understand them, or is it
that they tiy to evade paying the tax? — A. They try to evade paying the tax, and
their mode t)f li\-ing is a difficulty in the way. You come across a Chinaman and j-ou
want to get his tax. You have got to give him twenty-four hours notice. You hax'e to
have a summons served on him. When you come back to serve the summons you can-
not find him. I have had policeman and others to assist me, but you cannot find the
man.

42 RE POUT OF ROYAL COil.VISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Edwin Charles Smith, assistant treasurer and collector of taxes for Victoria, stated
that the I'evenue received from Chinese in Victoria for the year 1900 was as follows : —

Trade licenses $ 2,882 50

Pedlars 530 00

Market fees from market gardeners, at 5 cents a day each 900 00

Water rents from Chinese 4,460 00

Sewer rents 92 00

Assessed taxes of property in name of Chinese 3,414 8G

Revenue tax at $3 a head 2,385 00

Road tax at .?2 a head 832 00

Total $15,496 36

XAXAIMO.

According to the evidence of Edward B. Irving, assessor and collector of the city
of Nanaimo, the amount of property assessed to the whites amounted to .^1, 385,925.
Nothing was assessed to Japanese or Cliinese. The Chinese own no realty in the town.
It was said there was not a single Chinese taxpayer. For 1900 the taxes paid by
whites amounted to •'?27,223. The assessed value of the property in ' Chinatown' owned
by the New Vancou\"er Coal Company was $2,000. They are described as mere huts.
Trade licenses of whites were $2,602, and Chinese $280. Revenue tax paid by whites
$3,969, and by Chinese .8624. Of the road tax .$1,546 was paid by whites, and $416 by
Chinese. The collector declared there was gi'eat difficulty in collecting the road and
revenue tax.

In Vancouver the total assessment of real property amounts to $16,513,135. The
total assessed value of real property in ' Chinatown ' is $260,225 ; of this amount $192j950
is assessed to whites and $67,255 to Chinese.

The total licenses, including liquor licenses, in Vancouver is $32,055.85 ; of this
amount $29,832.85 is paid by whites, and $1,310 by Chinese. Vancouver has a popu-
lation of 26,133, of which 2,053 are Chinese.

In New Westminster, of a total assessment of ■$3,299,920, $36,950 was assessed to
Chinese. The whites pay in taxes $49,234.01 and the Chine.se $699.80 on the above
assessment. The amount of property in ' Chinatown ' assessed to wliites amounts to
$95,370 ; to Chinese $32,680, and upcm this sum is paid by whites $1,907.40 and by
Chinese $653.60, making a total of $2,561 paid directly and indirecth' by Chinese on
property in 'Chinatown.' Tlie population of New Westminster is 6,499, of which 748
are Chinese.

t'UMBERL.^ND .VXD UXIOX.

La.wrence W. Nunns, collector of taxes for the Town of Cumberland which adjoins
the Union Coal ilines, stated : Cumberland has a population of about 1,000. There
are about 800 miners employed at the Union Mines, of whom about 400 are Chinese
and Japanese. Cumberland is incorporated ; Union is n(jt. Both Japanese and Chinese
\'\\e outside of the town.

The assessed value of real property for 1900 was $175,000. The total revenue col-
lected was $3,334. The tax on real property amounted to $1,(154. Of the real estate
tax there was $3.30 paid by one Chinaman. One Japanese resided within tlie town. The
Chinese contributed absolutely nothing. They deal with their own Chinese merchants
almost exclusively. They contribute nothing towards the support of schools, churches
and general taxation, although they represent a large proportion, of the adult male pop-
ulation— nearly one-half that work in the mines.

ox CHIXESE AND JAPAXESE IMMIGltATJOX 43.

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

KAMLOOPS.

Kamloops has a population of 1,594, of which 195 are Chinese. The total assessed
value of the town is •S65O,0OO, for land and improvements, of which $15,000 is owned
by Chinese merchants.

Land. Iniprovt-nicnt^.

Total assessed value uf Chinatown ••? 9,065 •'? 29,200

Owned by Whites 5,410 15,225

Owned by Chinese 3,675 13,975

Trade licenses issued to whites, $815 ; to Chinese, including- opium lieen.se of 8100,
§170. Road tax, whites, §224 ; Chinese, $54.

KOSSLAXD.

According to a Chinese witness, there are about 350 Chinese in Rosslanri. Accord-
ing to the assessor it is 400. The census gives, 241.

William Harp, City Assessor of Hossland, says : The poll tax collected from
Chinese at $2 per head amounted to •'5250. The a.s.sessed value of the city is $2,274,900,
of which .$6,600 is a.ssessed to Chinese. The rate is two cents on a dollar.

Liquour licenses, whites $ 20,535

Trade licenses, whites 2,193

Trade licen.ses, Chinese 125

Total poll tax, w-hites 3,868

Total poll tax, Chinese 250

The total taxes collected bv the citv for 1900 was .$24,417, of which tlic Chinese
paid $112.

Rossland has a population of 6,159.

It will be seen from the above that the proportion of adult Chinese males to adult
white males is about one in four or five. The proportion of taxes paid bv Chinese is
less than one in a hundred.

REVELSTOKE.

John D. Graham, of Atlin, says : It is hard to get the tax out of them. I was
go\ernment agent at Revelstoke. I refer to the miner's certificate and poll tax. I
speak from my own experience. There would be fifteen or twenty of them working
together and I never could catch hold of them to get their tax. I went up the river
often enough, but found that most of them had flown when I got there. They were not
on hand when I got there. They never come to my office.

SUMMARY.

The tax collector of Victoria declared that the Chinese tried to evade the tax in
e\evy possible way. ' It is impossible to trace them. I do not get as fair a proportion
of ta.Kes from them as from the whites.'

The other (officials confirmed this statement and we find it to be the fact.

Victoria has a jiopulation of 20,816, of wiiich 3,283 are Chinese. The total tax
paid bj- Chinese, as appears by the evidence of the assistant treasurer and collector of
taxes for Victoria, for the year 1900 was $15,496. The statement handed in by the
Chinese Board of Trade, which includes revenue and road tax, is $17,257, and inclusive
of the head tax on labourers may amount to $18,000 ; but this amount it must be borne
in mind is chiefly paid by the Chine.se merchants, who, according to their own statement.

44 BEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX,

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

number 288, representing 109 firms. Deducting this number from the total number of
Chinese in Victoria, exclusive of women and children, leaves in round numbers 2,700
labourers and others who are not engaged in trade.

The total tax of ^'ictoria, including land tax. water rates, licenses, Arc., collected
for the rear 1900 amounted to about 8400,000. This includes the school rate but not
the Government grant. The collector stated that in March, 1901, he had collected the
poll tax from about one thousand Chinese for the year 1900.

That is with a jiopulation of about one to eight they pav in the proportion of one
to twenty-two, but if you eliminate the proportion of taxes paid by the Chinese mer-
chants, the remaining 2,700 Chinese do not pay a municipal tax of more than 81 in
§100, but in this comparison 2,700 adult males are compared with a total population of
men, women and children. Eliminating the women and children, you would probably
have a population of not more than 6,000 white adult males as against 3,000 Chinese
adult males, including merchants. That is, approximately, 6,000 whites pay 8382,000 ;
3,000 Chinese pay 818,000. If you exclude the merchant class, the tax paid by Chinese
is insignificant. The above comparison is approximate only, but we believe the dispro-
portion is e\en greater.

Assuming that 800 of the Chinese residing in Victoria, who work on the Eraser
pav their taxes there, it does not seriouslv affect the relative disproportion.

Approximatelv the same disproportion obtains in other places.

In this connection it mav be pointed out that if their mode of li\"ing was normal,
occupying separate houses with their families, they should represent a population of
three or four times as many as at present. They would require ten times the house
room. Their taxes would be more, and if their habits of life were similar to the white
population, it would require more to support their families, and the contribution to the
Dominion revenue would also be very much greater.

It is certain, having regard to all the facts, that the Chinese bear no fair proportion
of the burden of taxation.

CHAPTER VII.— LAND CLEARING AND AGRICULTURE.

The clearing of wood land in British Columbia is a very difficult problem, owing to
the enormous growth of the tunber. It is said to cost from 8-50 to 8150 an acre, and in
extreme cases as high as $300 ; probably the a-\-erage would be from 870 to 880 per
acre.

The Chinese ha\-e ct)utributed to the clearing of land, and some take the view that
thev are necessary for that purpose, but the prevailing, and we think the better opinion,
is, that if large areas of timber land are ever to be cleared rapidly for agricultural pur-
poses it must be done by machinery and explosives, handled by white men. In small
holdings the clearing will be done by degrees, the owner working, from time to time, at
other employments to assist him in supporting his family. It will not at pre.sent pay
even the large land holders to hire Chinamen to do the work of c'earing, owing to the
enormous cost, and although machinery has been applied to a limited extent, yet very
few have attempted on a large scale to clear and cultivate timber lands. From the
nature of the case, this must be done gradually, and how ? Your Commissioners do not
believe that increased numbers of Chinese will greatly facilitate this work ; it will rather
be accomplished by the- adoption of a liberal policy, which will induce white men with
their families to settle upon small holdings, and if a portion of the unskilled labour of
the countrv is open to them they will in this way be enabled to keep their families during
the long and slow process of clearing the land.

The competition with the North-west and Pacific Coast States has also a material
bearing upon the question of the time when the timber lands of British Columbia will
be largely cleared for agricultural purposes.

Oy CBIXESB AXD JAPAXESE IMMIGHA TlOX 45

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Farmers owning 160 at-res and under were practically unanimous in their opposi-
tion to the Chinese, for any pui'poses whatever. Some of the large land holders favoui-ed
them as farm labourers and for clearing the land, and those wli<:i lease lands to Chine.se
for market gardens, — the lessee clearing the land as part consideration for its use, — also
favovu' the ]>resence of the Chinese. The .smaller owners pointed out that conditions were
such in British CVjlumbia that the presence of the Chinese was a serious injury to their
business, and to their making a living ; that the avenues of unskilled labour were largely
filled by Chinese, anrl that the farmer struggling to pay for his hokling and to make a
living, was greatly hindered by being prevented from taking achantage of those avenue.*?
of labour for a part of the year, which, but for the Chinese, would be open to him.
Your Commissioners fully concur in this view.

Quotations from the evidence will perhaps more clearly set tVjrtli the views as pre-
sented frt)m both sides : —

Alexander Philip says : I am secretary of the Richmond Farmers' Institute. It
includes the whole of the Richmond riding, that is Richmond, Burnaby, South Van-
couver, North Vancouver, and northwards on the coast. We have different sections,
and each of these sections have meetings. I come with a resolution from Central Park
section. The resolution is as follows : —

At a meeting of the Richmond Farmers' Institute held in Smith's Hall, Central
Park, on Tuesday, May 1-1, 1901, Mr. John Green, Vice-President, in the chair. Interalia.

On motion of Mr. W. G. Alcock, seconded by Mr. John Connon, it was resolved,

That we hereby declare it to be a serious prejudice to the successful prosecution of
farm work to have so many Chinamen engaged in the business. It is especially hard
on the settlers in this district who have only small holdings and are dependent on them
for a living. The mode of life among the Chinese makes it easy for them to undersell
in the markets and yet have considerable sums of money as j)rofit. We think there is
no comparison between the best of the Chinese as rural settlers and the humblest of the
white men who, with their families, are living on and cultivating their holdings. Be-
sides, the uncleanly habits of the Chinese, as cultivators, have endangered the health of
the consumers of the pi'oducts of their lands, and as these products reach the market in
so many diff'erent ways, the consumers do not always know w'hen they are supplied to
tliem.

We believe that, although the Japanese are not 3'et so largely engaged in farming,
they will likely soon take it up, and become even keener competitors.

We believe that there should be a tax of not less than iJoOO on each person of
either race on entry to the country, and also a rigid educational test.

Resolved further, that this expression of our views be laid before the Royal Com-
mission now assembled to receive evidence in connection with the immigration of Chinese
and Japanese.

Extracted by Alex. Philip, Secretary.

This is my second year as secretary of the institute. That resolution expresses the
general view. There is a strong consensus of opinion among them regarding this matter.
It expresses my own views as well. One man stated, there were tw^enty-two Chinese
wagons with vegetables pass his door. The Chinese compete with all the farmers.

Henry Thomas Thrift, a farmer residing at Hazelmore, gave evidence which, from
his position, we regard as very important. He says : I am secretary of the Settlers'
Association of British Columbia to assist in re-settling vacant lands. It has branches
as far east as Enderby. Seventeen branches, with a membership of seven or eight hun-
dred, presumably all settlers on land. There was a general annual meeting this year on
March 11. The majority of members are decidedly against Oriental immigration. The
Japanese are more to be feared than the Chinese on account of their superior intelli-
gence. First, the presence of Japs and Chinese hinder a better class of people coming
in and settling up these lands. The evidence is this : We have here one of the best
markets in America for agricultural produce. Our own lands are vacant and unpro-
ductive. We lack that class of immigration here that the presence of the Chinese

46 HEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

supply. They would develop our lands and make them productive. I know many p.eople
have been deterred from coming liere through the presence of Chine.se. At many of
our meetings resolutions have been passed addressed to the Dominion and ProWncial
Governments asking to restrict this and promote the class which we most desire. Many
of our members are Old Country people and from Eastern Canada, — not of a low class.
We feel persuaded it would be immensely in the interest of the country to offer this
desirable class inducements to come, either from Eastern Canada or from the Old
Country. There is an immense amount of money sent out for agricultural products. A
person going on some of our lands cannot make a living, and they find the outside
callings filled ^vith Oriental labour, and they cannot get work to help them out till they
get started. Market gardening would be the first thing to be taken up, and the Chinese
practically control that business.

Second, if we got this class here it would give a larger revenue.

Third, the Chinese don't become settlers and it would not be desirable if they
did. Tlieir system of li\-ing is altogether repugnant to people who desire to live as
human beings ought to live. The Dominion lands, through the efforts of our society,
are free to actual settlere. The Japs may come in and prevent the class coming in for
whom we are so anxious. If all lands in British Columbia were like the delta you might
employ Chinese and Japanese, but on wooded land the people liave not got funds to pay
them and these small holders themselves require wages to help to support themselves.
In this I voice the view of our association. Their interests are adverse to any further
immigration of that class of labour". I call small holding an\-thing from ten to forty
acres. The easily cleared lands are not available, because they are held by wealthy far-
mers. There is clearing after they are drained. There is not one-twentieth of these
delta lands under cultivation. It could be brought under cultivation at from 810 to
820 an acre. In my own case the alder bottom lands would pay the first crop for
clearing. Other parts I could not clear up for less than 82-50 an acre. I say there are
83,500,000 a year of imports of agricultural produce that we can raise here. If we raise
that here anyone can see the advantage to the country. I made a careful estimate of the
amount of stuff raised in Surrey. In that district, of a total acreage of 76,000 acres,
there wei'e 6,000 acres under cultivation ; that included all lands. I estimated there
were 18,000 acres of low flat land, principally delta land. The total product was less
than 8250.000. I think the interests of the country should be considered before these
large industries. The Xorth-west Territories compete with us in oats, hogs, butter,
eggs, poultry, kc.

Those who have land here, of course, have to produce as cheaply as they can in
order to compete with the North-west, where there is very little expense in bringing
the land under culti\ation : and those who have to pay too much for the land here
cannot compete with the Xorth-west. I may say I have charge of a number of quarter
sections at the present tune, both high lands and low lands, and as far as I am aware
there is nothing against those lands, providing the cost of clearing wa.s not so high to
prevent competition with the Xorth-west : but the competitor we fear just now is the
Canadian Pacific RaUwav, our national railway — they have immense tracts of lands in
the Xorth-west that they are anxious to get settled, and they are mo -e inclined to offer
inducements to settlers to go on to lands belonging to the railway than they are to
induce settlers to come to British Columbia ; they are offering great inducements for
settlers to the Xorth "West. The first question is that of a market : there is a good
market in British Columbia, and that gives the Canadian Pacific Railway an immen.se
advantage. They discriminate in rates against the agricultural interests of British
Columbia : they are giving settlers great inducements as far west as Calgar}-. A settler
coming to Calgary has every inducement held out to him ; a settler coming ti Calgary
can get there for 835.00, whereas if he wants to come to British Columbia, he has to
pay 854.00. There is a decided di crimination by the railway against settlers coming
to British Columbia. Thus the railway is preventing people coming in here who would
develop our lands.

The Chinese prevent people coming in. We want these settlers for social life, —
for churches and schools, and not have to tramp several miles for one of our own kind.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 47

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The early settlers rlid sacrifice all advantiiges. I came here in 1879, settled at Hazel-
inore in 1884, two miles north of the boundary, thirteen or fourteen miles from New
Westminster.

After the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway a great many men were looking
for a home, and, as mentioned here this moi'ning, a great man\- men were brought out as
an experiment from Quebec, and went out in the wild land to settle. Pi-actically the
bulk of the lands south of the river (Fraser river) was taken up, and the land back of
that these people went on to try and makes homes for themselves. They had to reside
on the land for three years and there were other regulations which rendered it impos-
sible for those people to make a living. Access to market was not so easy as now, and
after a hard time endeavouring to clear land enough to support themselves, those people
had to clear out. A great many of those people mortgaged their land and have since
had to abandon the land to the mortgage company.

Q. Is the unimproved land held at such a figure as would prevent fi.shermen settling
on it ? — A. Well, as far as fishermen are concernefl I know places survej'ed in what they
call the fishermen's lots ; these lots are in big locations, and are from ten to fifteen acres
in extent, and they are held at from $\h to S30 an acre.

Q. Is there any class of white people in this province who wiiuld be prepared to hire
themselves out to clear land at such prices as a farmer could pay ? — A. I do not say
there are men here now, but there are openings for men to come here and start in
building up homes for themselves.

The greater proportion of the farm lands in this province are heavily timbered, which
require to be cleared to be productive, but you will find a great deal of land close to the
river, good agricultural land, that can easily be cleared up.

Q. Who is going to do it now 1 — A. We have to do it ourselves.

Q. Then you require to have cheap labour ? — A. The farmers are too poor to employ
cheap labour.

Ten vears ago I paid $1.-50 to .f 1.75 a day for clearing land.

Q. Take the ordinary settler wlio lias come in and gone on a farm, say twenty
miles from town ; how is he prejudicially afl:ected by the presence of Orientals in the
country ? — A. If that man cannot make some little by working outside he will be in a
bad position to have his land cleared, and his interests would be prejudicially affected.

Q. Where would such a man go for work ? — A. There would be work for such men
all over the country, but for the presence of the Japanese and Chinese.

Q. How is he prejudicially affected by their presence ? — A. He is prejudicially
affected if he wants to go tQ town for work.

Q. Do you mean to say that a farmer will go to town in that way ? — A. The best
settlers we have to-day are those who had in the past gone to town and earned money
to help them along. It helps the small holder to get along. It helps him to li\-e, and
at the same time to devote his spare time in clearing the land and making a home for
himself. >>_->

Q. You told my learned friend, these men are too poor to pay for the clearing of
their land ? — A. Yes.

Q. Is that the result of the unhealthy competition thev have to engage in ? — A.
To some extent. I would not say it is due to that entirely. These people have to
make a living somewhere. At first they cannot make it on their lanfl and they have to
take municipal work if they can get it. There is so much competition that the prices
are so much reduced that a man cannot help himself much, and holders of small farms
are obliged to come to town and get work, or go into the logging camps.

Q. What happens when he finds the avenue of employment filled by Chinese or
Japanese I — A. Then he cannot get work, and he has either to starve or enter into an
unhealthy competition with these people.

Q. You ha\'e spoken of little holdings being taken up and afterwards abandoned.
l»o you know whether the (Jrientals being in the province had anything to do with the
abandonment of the land ? — A. I do not think it had anything to do with the abandon-
ment of that land.

48 REPOKT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Is there any difficulty in getting the best land settled I — A. Yes, because tliere
is no demand. I do not think it is because those lands are held too high.

Q. You spoke of Pitt Meadows. Do you know how many acres there are there ? —
A. I cannot say. It is a large tract of land, good land and capable of being cultivated.

Q. The presence of the Chinese does not prevent that land from being settled ? — A.
I don't know, but some of the land has been overflowed.

Q. Doesn't it strike you as a somewhat strange circumstance that we have a demand
for such produce as the land you speak of could raise, and vet we send out •'?3, 500,000
for produce ? — A. Yes. These lands are not available except to parties who can pay for
them. AVe cannot get money to come in here and invest in the high lands, that is, men
of large means and men of small means would come in here if thev could make a living
here : but they cannot get the lands under the same fa\ourable conditions as settlers
can in the Xorth-west.

Q. The Chinese would not prevent men of means coming in liei-e .' — A. I do not
know that ; but there would be a great inducement to white settlers to come in here if
they could get work outside when thev wanted it.

Q. The high land is heavily timbered \ — A. \''es.

Q. What is it held at per acre ? — A. From §1 .50 to .S50 an acre.

Q. The land that would be sold for §1 . 50 an acre would require a considerable
expenditure to bring it under cultivation ? — A. Yes.

Q. And it is because a person coming in cannot at once obtain a living or depend on
getting a living out of the land, and finds the other a'sTnues blocked that settlers do not
come in here ? — A. Yes, that is my view.

In some measure the Orientals keep a better class of citizens out. I have emploved
Japs but I would not employ them again to clear land because they don't understand it.

William, James Brandrith, Secretary of the Fruit Growers' Association for the
Province, says : The association are in favour of total prohibition, — no further immi-
gration to be allowed. It applies to both Chinese and Japanese. That expresses my
own view also. We are not suliering as yet from this eau.se, but the thin edge of the
wedge has entered. I know one Chinese with fifteen acres, who has strawberries, and
another of ten acres of orchard. The property is leased. Another property of seventy
acres leased to Chinamen ; two and a half acres are orchard and a half acre strawberries ;
and other cases. I have a list of Chinese within my knowledge engaged in fruit growing
and market gardening. There are twenty Chinese bosses I know of, and a total of 643
acres, a market garden and orchard. On ten acres there were twelve Chinamen. It is
impossible for a white man to compete, because the Chinese live at a cost of about ten
cents a day. I have this from three Chinese, — Lee Wan, Charles Hees, and another
commonly known as the ' Pirate,' I have seen them selecting food from the swill barrel.
The difference in the cost of living would be the profit or loss. They are a menace to
health. The membership of our association is about eighty. There are two hundred
and fift}" on the roll. Eight}- have paid their annual fees and are in good standing.
There were twenty-three or four at the annual meeting. I think almost every one has
expressed his ^-iews to me.

It has been suggested that Chinese labour was necessary in dyking and clearing the
delta lands and lands along the Fraser. It was therefore opportune to obtain the
evidence of a gentleman who has a large interest in this question and whose evidence
commended itself as worthy of the most careful consideration.

Alexander Cruickshanks said : I have a contract to settle a large tract of land on the
Fraser with whom I please, but I am getting it settled by white people at Matsqui
Prairie. It is a good farming section. There are 10,600 acres already reclaimed with
dvke, of which I have 6,000 acres, all reclaimed land. That was reclaimed with dyke
.seven miles long on the Fraser front. The dyke was made by white labour and machi-
nery. No Chinese labour was used. The work is completed. There are several
thousand acres more. The machinery managed b}- white men is the cheaper method.
Pitt Meadows was reclaimed in the .same way, — by machinery and white labour, con-
taining about fifteen thousand acre^, and there are about thirty thousand acres at
Chilliwack, which is being reclaimed and ditched, by machinery and white labour in

(jyi CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 49

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

the same way. Tlie work is going on at present. There is another tract of land lying
between jV^atsqui and Chilliwack, containing about thirty thousand acres, not yet
reclaimed, but could be ; and several large islands, containing many thousand acres of
land that it is possible to reclaim, and this land is all of the very finest. There is no
better dairy land in America than that. From the nature of the work Chinese labour
could not be profitably employed. Part of it is open prairie ; partis open scrub willow,
crab apple, hazel, and such like. I don't think there would be any advantage to have
Chinese for that part of the work. Chinese have been used in making smaller dykes
towards the mouth of the Fraser. Some have been used last year. The Chinese are
not required up the river, and I see no reason why they should he requirefl for dyking
land down the river.

Mj terms are as follows : The price at which I sell the land averages .f'iO an acre.
I get $3 cash, or its equivalent, and the balance is distributed over a period of six years,
in equal payments at six per cent. Six of the settlers are fishermen whose main
business is fishing. I think it would be to the advantage of both fishing and farming to
carry them on together. When they stop the fishing at the end of the week at close
season on Sunday night the run of Saturday have got that far and the fishermen have
a greater catch than the men at the mouth of the river, and on Monday and Monday
night he catches also better, and the fishermen there lay off the rest of the week. One
fisherman was most successful on the whole run, fishing only t\YO nights and days, and
the rest of the week he put up his haj-, anrl he had a home of his own when the fishing
season was over. The fishermen of the city and those in scow houses are looking for
land at the present time. There is good land on the Fraser, capable of furnishing
three thousand families in small allotments, being land not occupied at the present time,
not Crown land, held b^ various parties who invested in them when it was thought to
be a good speculation. I know many of the present holders who are anxious to sell
those lands on reasonable terms within the means of working men. This would be a
great source of supply for all industries — men with a stake in the country and families.
I was in Manitoba, and until four yeai-s ago, in Minneapolis, and with a large logging
company in Wisconsin. The capable men around our saw mills here were trained east.
Tlie proof is these men are selected as foremen. I came here twelve years ago. Have
been out of the country si.x and a-half years. Am a British subject, born in
Ontario. I would be in favour' of any measure in the direction of exclusion. I have
got men clearing land at Matsqui, of brush and scrub, and I am paying them in land
and let them pay and work for land. They are white men. If Chinese oSer to do the
work for half the amount I would not accept the offer because I would not consider it
good business to do so. If I did I would not get as good a price for the land which was
left. It depreciates the price of the adjoining land to sell land on these terms to China-
men. At the Court of Revision in this city, men appear to have their assessment
lowered because CJiinamen are on adjoining lots. In settling a tract of land,
until I get a certain number of settlers in, I find it difficult to get people to go in a
district where there are no neighbours. There is the question of schools and churches.
Where I succeed in getting a white man with his family I have made it easier to sell
the rest. It then becomes a more desirable place to live in. I look on the exclusion of
the Chinese from the whole country as in the interest of the country, and on the same
gi'ounds I exclude them from my land ; no matter how cheap I got their labour, it would
be a bad business to emplov them there. I think the country will be cleared by white
men, and gradually, — a little at a time. If you got your Chinamen at twenty cents a
day the cost of clearing timber land would be more than the price of good land that
never had such growth of timber on it. I don't consider it a business proposition to
clear heavy timbered land. Moody Square, in this city (New Westminster), cost over
$300 an acre to clear it of stumps. I don't agree witii the suggestion that Chinese
labour is necessary to clear the land. Men are offering to come and work for me clear-
ing lands as a cash payment on lots they are willing to buy from me. I draw no dis-
tinction with respect to Chinese and Japanese. All I have said applies equally to both.
I own the lands I refer to. The land between this city and Vancouver has a peculiai-
value for small holdings, but not for farming. There are choice places in every district
.54—4

50 RKPOnt OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

and in Burnaby there are many low-lying lands. I think it was a mistake so man)'
settlers were placed on these hill lands. They have had less pay for their work than
any other class. Hill lands cannot compete with low land if labour was five cents a
day. Dyking at Pitt Meadows was a first experiment in dyking and experiments cost
money. There is a large block of land on Lulu Island. It is already dyked and could
be made a garden. Ten acre lots would support a family ; a good jjlace for fishermen.
They fish all around it. One real estate man sold eleven lots this week for this purpt)se.
On Lulu Island ten years ago they asked §200 an acre. It went down again. This is
a good country. It has got tlie soil and climate and resources to support a white popu-
lation. It would be very unprofitable to build that ch'ke by hand labour. Boys are
prevented from learning. How can mills expect to get an efficient staflT if they employ
Chmese \ I have communications from England from workingmen, and when they do
come here they are disappointed in seeing so many Chinese. Chinese would be worse
than no neighbours. They would make the lands unsaleable. I want to get the country
settled up. I can't see how this class is necessary. I know there are conditions brought
about because this labour \\as here. Certain industries are dependent on cheai) labour
for their profit. I think if the country was settled up the white settlers would give
them a substitute for this cheap labour that would be better every way. In dyking no
kind of labour can compete with a machine that can draw- up two thousand yards a
day at a cost of 626 a .day ; that would be under favourable circumstances. There are
lauds where they use the tramway and railroad as the only practical way of dyking.
Chinese would be impracticable there because they bring the material from a distance.
Steam-made dykes are better than tho.se built by hand labour. When the stuff is
dumped ten feet the impact is very great. I worked in the business. The cost of
reclaiming land on the Fraser would be less than in any place I know of. I tliink if a
capitalist, he had better buy cleared land, and if a labouring man, he had better exclude
the Chinese so that when he goes out to work he won't meet with competition. The
most of the farmers I know have to go out and work and are met by the Chinese. When
men come here from the United States and pay money out for land, I have had them
call my attention over and over again to the number of orientals here, and this prevents
the immigration of whites. The farmer does not go into market gardening, but the
settler does at the outset and he has to work at anTy-thing he can do.

Q. Wouldn't you say it is a great advantage to the fai-mers to get a class of men who
are ready to do that rough work (clearing timber lands) at a lower cost than could
possibly be done by white men ? — A. Men in that case would be making money out of
the necessities of the Chinese, but they would find it a great disadvantage if the Chinese
were working at something else. Farmers would get other work outside to help them
if there was no Chinese labour in competition with them, in building roads, and dykes
and ditches.

Q. We have had evidence that they find it a great advantage to have oriental
labour in clearing land \ — A. Chinese labour can be done without by using machinery
run by white men, and the advantage gained by the country would far more than
counterbalance this cheap labour of the Chinese.

Q. Take a farmer who is personally occupied in the cultivation of the land he has
cleared and he wants to clear a little moie land. He says, I cannot afford to pay f 2 a
day to men to do such rough work, and he says it is to his ad\antage to ha^'e orientals
do the work ? — A. I disagree with him. He would ineet the competition of the China-
men when he went to sell his produce, and therefore any advantage he would gain in
the first place by employing the Chinamen to clear the land would be counterbalanced
and more by the competition he would have from the Chinamen in the sale of his
produce.

I have never seen one hundred acres of bush land cleared yet by a farmer. I have
.seen men gradually clearing land, but at a very slow rate. If he was a.sking my advice
as to clearing heavih' timbered land for farming, from a business standpoint I would
advise him not to do it. . . . At the present time it would be better to

get on the low lands. There are o\er one hundred thousand acres of that kind of land
that can be put in small holdings.

OiV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 51

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. These people seem to have been blind to their own interests. They have settled
on heavily timbered farms and have started to clear them ?

A. The most of them are forced now to go out and do work outside to get a little
cash, and when they go out to do work they find themselves in competition with the
Chinese and can get very little cash. If there was no competition from the Chinese
cheap laboui', these men would have a chance of making a little outside and helping
themselves in devekipiiig their small holdings ; but that is a case I have not come acro.ss,
oi farmers emploj'ing oriental labour to clear land in the way you put it.

Their presence here has certainly a deterrent effect on white people coming in and
settling up the country. He finds that he will have to come into competition with the
Chinese and he at once seeks other fields in which to employ his capital and his laliour.

I was in Manitoba seven j-ears and the workers on railroads and farm labourers
became settlers. If you lower the wage class you reduce the standard. I think the
canners are entitled to consideration, but I think they could get white labour. I think
it is regrettable that white labour avoids coming here. The wages are as high, but there
is a disadvantage. It is the last job I would look for. I would not like to be one in a
gang of ten Chinamen. The white labourers are beginning to feel what they ought not
to feel — that any job is beneath them. I think one of the nicest jobs there is, is piling
lumber. Piling lumber is not low. It is a good decent job. I know lots of college
students east that will be piling lumber. I have a contract to settle a lot of land and I
sell how I please, so long as I get the net amount for the vendors. They are all
speculatoi's.

An exceptionally clear statement showing how the presence of Chinese and Jap-
anese militates against the settlement and permanent development of the country was
given by Mr. N. C. Schow. We commend this statement as coming from a witness un-
prejudiced and without pecuniary interest, and from his personal knowledge, close
obser\ation and keen vision, clearly indicates the permanent injury the province suffers
from this class of labour.

N. C. Schow says : I reside in the city of Vancouver. Have been reeve of Burnaby
for nine yeare, an out district partly residential, partly agricultural, and affording a
limited amount of lumbering opportunities. I have a home in Bui-naby. I am assistant
editoi' of the Newx-Advertiser. Am an Englishman by birth. Have resided here ten
years. We have a bj'-law in our municipality which prohibits the use of Japanese and
Chinese labour on municipal work. We found that very beneficial in encouraging
small holders ; and by dividing contracts into small sections we dispense with a middle
man. Two or three white workers will take up road improvement in partnership and
compete so keenly, but good-humouredly, that we believe the municipality loses little by dis-
pensing with Mongolian labour. The rates just now often bring them no more than .$1.2.5 a
day, but they take up our contracts between intervals of work on their own holdings, where
they live cheaply and independently, raising their own vegetables, fowls, etc., so that they
don't complain. The labour is free, not servile, and our contracts enable many of these
men to improve their holdings and remain in the district, and bring up assessment
values and improve the district generally. We have enforced the by-law in two
instances — the only two in which any attempt was made to break it, by declining to
allow the conti'actor for the Chinese labour employed. That was the punishment for
breach. As a matter of fact the by-laws are willingly submitted to by all the people.
We take care to include Japanese as well in the exclusion, because we consider the
Japanese even more dangerous than the Chinese. Some of our residents before Japs
came on the Fraser used to put in a month or six weeks in fishing, but this source of
eking out their income is now practically at an end. At one time, too, there were man_y
white workers engaged in the woods in Burnaby, in cutting shingle bolts, but these
have nearly all been displaced l)y Japanese workers ; as a result of which the white
settlement has undoubtedly Ijeen prevented to a considerable extent in some parts of
our municipality. We have a lumber mill at Barnet and there, as the ow^ner says, of
necessity, by reason of competing with other mills, a very large proportion of employees
consist of Chinese and Japanese. We should have a good deal of market gardening in
the district. It is well adapted for it, but for Chinese competition ; but as things are,
54— 4 i

52 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

we have onlv two or tliree .specially skilled men engaged in that industry. Some of the
settlers make fair livings to a large extent by small fruit growing. This industry for
some reason, whieh I have not been able to discover, the Jlongolian.s have not yet
entered. If thev should enter it those engaged in small fruit gnjwing in Burnaby would
not be able to compete and get a reasonably good living. They are in constant dread
of an invasion of their occupation by the Japanese, as they are more inclined to go in
for more skilled woi'k. There are some cases of Japanese on hire for as low as So a
mouth with the meagrest of board, and although they undoubtedly help to clear land
cheaply, most of us feel that in tlie end the farmers will pay dearly for tlie temporary
gain, both socially and economically.

As to Chinese, I would favour almost total exclusion. I believe, judging from my
experience in England and here, that if there was an exclusion of the Chinese and
Japanese a large amount of cheap white labour would flow in gradually, sufficient to
meet all requirements. I believe the immigration of white labourers has been almost
absolutely prevented from entering by the presence here of Japanese and Chinese. I
have been trying for two days to get empk)piient for an English labourer, temperate and
willing to work, who has been in Canada for some years and knows the country and its
ways, and I find it impossible to obtain him a position, either on farms near here or in
the city itself. I have applied to leading farmers and I find Japanese working on farms
and superceding white labour.

I correspond with some leading English papers on Canadian matters and I find it
impossible to recommend ordinary British labourers to emigrate under existing circum-
stances. The only class I could conscientiously recommend as a rule is mining labour,
as to which I have been able to sa}' that there is a moderate opportunity for a limited
number of really skilled and temperate men. In the absence of Chinese and Japanese,
I am persuaded thay there are districts around here, and islands, and gulf islands, which
will afl'ord admirable opportunity for a hardy stock of British and other European set-
tlers. I allude particularly to men who gain part of their living on homesteads by
gardening and agriculture, and part of their li^ ing on the adjacent sea or river. There
are many such men who, under ordinary conditions, would emigrate to the Province
from seaboard districts in Scotland, in Ireland, the Isle of Man, and points on the north
coast of England, and in some of these locations the population is congested — to a dis-
trict like this where the climate is like the British Isles — and they would not have to
change very greatly their mode of life.

I object to the Chinese. First, because they exclude white settlement, which we
need in this country : and, secondly, they spend little, .so that the wage fund i.s a drain,
as it does not freely circulate like others. I have no prejudice as to colour or race, but
socially and economically I look upon their presence as a detriment to a British Province.
I think the Japanese will settle the Chinese question because they will drive out the
Chinese. Tlie Japanese are infinitely more adapted to cut out white laboui'. The limi-
tation I would suggest would be based on our population — say three per thousand of our .
population, of Japanese. As to the Chinese, an increased poll tax to ."$.500 and a treaty,
if obtainable.

Q. Do you think oriental immigration amounts to anything in comparison with the
interests underlying the different industries here ? A. I think the country would have
been better oft' with from twenty to twenty -five thousand white settlers here in place of
the Chinese and Japanese. Undoubtedly they have developed a large number of sub-
sidiary industries, but I say they are not desirable, and that the more desirable class
would be settlers having little holdings of their own, and gaining a little help by the fishing.
I think the larger industries have been a little handicapped here. They have not been
sufficiently independent. They have been so largely in the hands of the financial
corporations and depended on them for assistance that their operations have been cramped. ,
That has had something to do with the cramping of the large industries. The resident
capital of British Columbia is very .small indeed. I doubt if we have three mil- '
lionaires in the country. I take it that it is important that we should have resident ,
capital here. Two-thirds of the capital is from the East or from Bi-itain, and interest !
has to be paid on that.

ox CHINESE A XV JAPANESE IMMIORATIOX 53

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

y. Are the conditions iiiijirnviiig ^ — A. 1 do not think the general conditions are
developing very steadily. Mining is develojaing, but the struggle for life is keener than
it was in many places ten yearij ago.

Q. How many white men have been displaced in your municipality b}- Chinese or
Japanese ? — A. I think probably fifty or sixty.

Q. Are those Chinese or Japanese taxpayers? — A. Onlj' one or two, if any.

Q. Has the presence of the Cliinese a tendency to discourage them from clearing

the land \ — A. It certainly does discourage them, and it cripples them finaciallj- as well.

Several of them have to employ Chinese because of financial ditficulties.

You have to consider all the conditions. A labourer receiving .$2 a day here

is not in as good a position as a labourer who receives five shillings a day in England,

but an English labourer could get along nicely here on S2 a day. . .

Q. How long is it since those conditions were introduced as to small holdings ? —
A. Possibly four or five 3'ears.

Q. Was there some wild land tax to large holders ? — A. Yes, we have an extra tax
on wild lands. It approaches twentv mills on the dollar. The purpose of that is to
break up the large holdings or to induce the owners to sell. We had large quantities of
land allowed to remain unused for years, for which we were obtaining practicallj- no
re\enue, land mainlv owned by absentees, and we tax that now so as to induce the
absentee owners to sell, so that small holdings can be had for all our people.

Q. Was that by municipal taxation or Government taxation ? — A. Ours is muni-
cipal taxation. It has been in effect ever since we have been in the municipality, ten
years. I think a difference was brought about by legislation some j'ears before that ; I
think, speaking from memory, that one has been in force twelve years.

Q. That would interfere to a certain extent with those who have invested large
sums of money in lands \ — A. It might press hard on investors, but it is forced on us.
There is no market for wild land now.

Q. You acted on the principle, if capital was not willing to open up any of the
large holdings, then the capitalists would be willing to slump the land on the market ?
— A. Aftei- paving taxes for so manv vears they come to the conclusion that the growth
of the country was not sufficient to make them a return for the money invested. The
trouble is we have so few buyers ; it is a difficult problem indeed to know what to do
with the wild land around us.

Q. Those people who invested are not interested in inducing more capital to come
in ? — A. It is a very awkward position, and many outside investors no doubt suffer from
such a state of things. In England, if land is vacant there is no tax ; but when they
found vacant land here and found that it was taxed they were willing to dispose of it
at a reasonable figure, so that it might be divTided up in small holdings.

A good deal has been said about unearned increment, but I think there is very
little unearned increment outside of the city. I rather think it is the other way.
Practically I think our .system is a proper one, and leads to the development of the
countrjr and of the settlement of the country by good settlers on small holdings of from
five to twenty acres. That I look forward to as the ultimate solution of this question,
but it will take some time because the oriental will not help a great deal in that way.

Q. When you speak of the effect of taxation being that capital does not come in
any more, what do 3'ou mean? — A. Well, I think Mr. Foley was asking whether capital
would come in to develop wild lands.

Q. When capitalists purchase wild lands the capital was simply left there ? — A.
They had to leave it there. The only good effect of it was that the capital got into the

hands of the people of the country The revenue of the country w'as certainly

less because of those large holdings. The interest of the country was practically a
sacrifice in the giving away of such large tracts of land to large holders

Q. Do you think it would be a great advantage to have small holdings in the
neighbourhood of the fisheries l — A. Yes, I think it would be a great advantage to
have small holdings, especially in the neighborhood of the towns and cities.

(I. Would you restrict it to less than eighty acres ? — A. The Government policy
.should be directed in every wav to encourage the occupation of small holdings near

54 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the cities. There are places where larger areas would be necessary, such as in the
Okanagan Territory and others. Near the city I should say the holdings should vary
in size from five to twenty acres. I know that in BurnaVjy lioldings of two and a half
acres do very well. The owner is near town and has work in town. Burnaby is better
for truck raising and market gardening. At very little expense and with very little
expenditure of labour at odd times the holder of two and a half acres in Burnaby ^vho
can secure labour in the city gets along very well. I think that j'ou may fairly sav that
there are twenty-five piggeries in Burnaby, that there are twenty-five people engaged
in that industry. These men are not market gardeners, but hog raisers and they do
very well.

James Thomas Smith .says : I am a farmer, six miles from Vancouver ; farming
all my life. Came from New Brunswick. Here fourteen years. Have 170 acres —
Ninet}' cleared. We have cleared another farm — some hea^T and some light. It cost
from .^S to -SI 00 an acre to clear. The Chinese are doing us out of our market.
Their method diifers from ours. They have started in the dairy business now. It ha»
been getting worse every year. We can get white labour as cheap. It would be a
long way cheaper by hiring white men because they^ can do more work. I am speaking
from experience. The Chinese don't buy our produce. They live on rice from China,
eggs from China rolled up in clay, China oil, etc. A beast died in the prairie, and
they got her and ate her. I had a sick cow. The calf died and we killed the cow.
A Chinaman wanted the cow to eat. I buried her. I considered the cow unfit for hogs
or chickens. They live in small houses and overcrowd. I have counted .5.5 Chinamen
in a small shanty, 15 by 30 feet, and the upstairs not high enough for them to stand up.
They never have the doors or windows open. They use the house for a store, a gambling
house, liquour and opium. This was within a few hundred yards of my own house.

We did some ditching, partly by Chinese and partly white men. Ditching is let at
10 cents a I'od to Chinese. I would rather pay 15 cents to white men. We employ
white men this year. Sometimes the white men are not around, A white man can do
more than Chinese. He will do three times as much. I have been all over the country,
and wherever I have been are Chinese gardeners, not many Chinese yet raising hay, but
they are going into it. Our taxes amount to .§200 a year. Other farmers' views are
the same as my own. There is a Farmers' Institute. We build levees. Formerly we
employed Chinese ; now we find whites just as cheap. Chinese offered me $20 an acre
for a year for sixty acres, but I wiiulcl not let them have it. I would have to pay the
taxes. I think the land was worth in the market §200 an acre. Except it is suitable
for selling ofl' in small lots it would not bring so much. If it is on tlie river in a good
situation, near to Vancouver, it would sell well, but my land is not worth !?200 an acre.
I paid for the first seventy §70 an acre. The land adjoining that is not cleared yet. I
was offered .§45 an acre for it. The sitviation makes a great deal of difference. For
instance, my brother-in-law bought 160 acres last fall from Judge Crease's land ; it was
not wild, but nneultivated. It was out in the centre of the island. Part of it runs into
the bog ; it is not good land. Land under cultivation runs all the way from .?40. Good
land is worth as much now as it was three years ago, but not unless suitable for selling
off in small lots.

I bought my farm, 170 acres, three or four years ago. I paid about •S75 for a piece
of it. 120 acres, and the balance, wich buildings on, 8200 an acre.

I grow principally hay, oats, wheat and turnips. Last year I took off about one
hundi'ed tons of hay. Sold .some for .§10 a ton and some for S12 a ton, delivered in town.
Sold about thirty -five tons. Sold about twenty tons of oats at §24 or $25 a ton, deliv-
ered in town. Sold no barley. Sold two tons of wheat at §30 a ton. Sold three
thousand pounds of butter at 30 cents, anrl a little sold for 35 cents. Made about S50
out of eggs. In a fair year we have to sell at lower prices. We did not have enough
to pay our debts in town. I know we would get better prices if the Chinese and
Japanese were not here.

On an average they pay -SS, •Sl2, and .§15 an acre for extra good land. They may
pay $20 an acre. The Chinese took a lease for ninety-nine years. He is j)aying 810 an
acre.

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRA TION 55

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

They eiRToacli upon the fanner in wood euttin,:;. About foui' years ago we liad
about twenty acres of lieavy wood cut and we employed a white man to cut out the
wood, ^^'e ijot it out at a very small figure. AA'e always took out at least one hundred
cords of wood in a year, and sometimes more ; but now, owing to Chinese and Japanese
supplying the market with wood, we liave a lot of it on our hands yet, because we
cannot sell it to clear ourselves. We cannot compete with them in selling wood, even
when the wood is cut off our own lands.

The consensus of opinion among the farmer's is against granting them the franchise.

Q. Do you think if those here secured the franchise it is likely to lead to trouble %
— A. It is likely to lead to rebellion.

If we had white labour in the canneries they could help on the farui as well. None
of the Chinese have their families except one on Lulu Island and one on the mainlai^d.
A Chinaman told me he had four hundred tons of potatoes.

William Daniels, a fai'mer, said : Have lived twenty-five years in South Vancou^•er.
T own sixty-se\-en and a half acres. Ther'e were twenty acres cleared. I raised hay,
potatoes, turnips, cabbage, and sold in Vancou\er. I rent forty acres to a Chinaman
now, and get $41.5 cash for it, annually. He raises everything in the shape of vegetables.
I could not compete. Most of the land where I am has been cleared by the Chinese.
I think they are very good to clear land. They have a good deal leased around there.
It costs $150 an acre to clear land. I think I paid, in addition, STOO to ditch twenty-
eight chains and put in flood-boxes ; that is all on the main dyke. I don't know if it
would cost more if no Chinamen were here. The number of Chinese farmers is increasing
lately. There are more leases. Farms are now rented. This Chinaman lives in my
house, 16 by 22 feet ; sometimes he has six, twelve or fifteen Chinamen with him. They
eat rice, potatoes, meat. The Chinese are good tenants. They culti\ate the land well.
They can get more off the lands than I do. I could get my son-in-law to work the place
if there were no Chinese. I cleared twenty acres and they cleared twenty acres. Japs
are not as good as Chinese. I had them offer to work at $-5 a month. I believe the
Jap is more dangerous than the Chinese. There were no Chinamen here when I cleared
my twenty acres. I could not afford to pay a white man to clear land. It is dirty work
and you could not get a white man to do it unless you pay him an outrageous wage.

The last twenty-eight acres cost me about one-half the ranch to do the clearing of
it. My wife and I did the clearing. I had to sell half the ranch to keep us going.
According to the way Chinese live, they live better than I do. They have got plenty
of everj-thing in the way of living, as a Chinaman does.

The evidence of Edward Musgrave probably gives the clearest statement of the
views of those who do not believe in i-estriction. A summary of his evidence as taken
down by the chairman is therefore given at length. He says : I reside in the
Cowichan district. I am farming at present, and have been for sixteen years, there and
on Salt iSpring Island. I emplcjy Chinese the whole time ; one domestic and one or two
outside, and one white man. vl P'ly the Chinese domestic §25 a month and the outside
men $20 to $25, and by the day at $1 a day. They board themselves. I pay the white
man from $.30 to §40 a month and he boards himself. I find the Chinese good servants.
The white man is physically stronger. It is not difficult to get whit* labour at that price.
The Chinese are nf)t largely employed by farmers. I don't think the numbers employed
are increasing. They live as a distinct race. I should not think it desirable if they did
assimilate. I should be sorry to see them settle here and bring their families here. I
should much prefer to see our own people. The reason is very obvious. I have no
desire to see them fill positions of unskilled labour. I am not making a living out of
farming. If 1 had to make a living I could not pay white labour, and it is doubtful
if I could pay Chinese. I should have to fall back on Japanese. The profits of farming
are not sufficiently high to pay the ordinary rate of wages. The farmers who are doing
well do the work themselves. I think it beneficial ff)r fuither immigration of the coolie
class. f( Wages are and have been abnormally high. Very many industries have been
helped by coolie innnigration. They don't compete with the mechanical class and they
supply cheaper labour. Under pi-esent circumstances I would have no restrictions at
all. If I did restrict I woultl do it in a different way. I consider the present restriction

56 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

is a bad and flisliDnest system. It does not leach the object aimed at. It merely makes
the expense of Chinamen entering the c-ountrv greater. It merely becomes a question
of whether it will pay him. It keeps some out. The ordinary Chinese can not aft'ord
to pav. He borrows from some company and has to repav with exorbitant interest. I
think it dishonest to tax a man to come in and tax him when here and then refuse to
allow him to be employed on Government work. I think it quite wrong. If admissible
it ought to be total exclusion. It would be a more honest system, I should say by treaty
with China. In the present state of affairs it is entirely against our treaty obligations.
I have veiy little experience with the Japanese. A large and growing number of
Japanese are employed in our district. They have been of immense benefit to the
province, I think. The common wage of a Japanese at present is small ; SIO a month
and a ration of rice and potatoes, but after they have been here they begin to increase
their demand and will work very little under a Chinaman. I see no necessity for
restriction, as far as we have gone. If many came then I would press the Home
Go^ ernment to limit the number. It is a very ditfieult question to decide upon. I may
say that the Chinese are only employed in certain \\ ork. They are not good hands with
animals, plougliing, etc. I ha\"e been eight years sheep farming on the Salt Springs
Island. I think it necessary to have cheap labour to clear the lands.

In regulating the price of our piroducts, the imports are of the greatest importance.
Very little agricultural produce is raised in the province. The expense of clearing is
enormous. It won't pay to do it. I doubt if a man could clear the land and support
himself unless he got outside work. Verj' few can afford to employ even Japs. The
average bush lands cost to clear, employing partly Chinese and white labour, from $100
to .SiOO an acre. The man who clears and sells ne^•er gets his money out of it. No
doubt it could be cleared in a scientific waj' much cheaper, but those who go into the
business cannot afford to employ up-to-date machinery and tools. I had knowledge of
farming in Scotland, Kew Zealand, South Australia and South America. In New
Zealand I was in sheep farming. I pay my white man by the year. No trouble to find
white labour at that price. I consider SI. 50 a day all the yeai- round is a higher price
than .82 for ordinary job. I should think about $2 is the ordinary wages. T don't think
an increased white population here would increase land values ; it might. Can't say
how much. A larger population would increase the demand for my farm produce. I
don't think farming will ever become a large industry on this Island. I doubt even if
you can clear land with Japanese labour at a profit. It is a question whether you have
labour at a reasonable rate, or at an abnormal rate. I think a municipality should get
their labour done as cheaply as possible, without considering any of these labour ques-
tions. I think a government ought in e\"erv fair way to foster their own people. In
my opinion this outcry about Chinese is a hollow mockery. I don't quarrel with white
labour. I have had in my employment almost every European nationality. There is a
certain amount of humbug. A white man will refuse to work with a Chinaman, but he
mil take a contract and hire Chinaman and work with them, the labourers doing what
is quite natural. New Zealand has developed much more rapidly, but you cannot com-
pare the two ; the one was covered with forests ; the other was open land ; and a different
climate as well. I don't think farmers could get on without Chinese.

I am sorrj' to say that the farms about here, most of them, are mortgaged, for the
purpose of raising money to clear them, and the farmers literally cannot afford to pay
for Chinese, Japanese, or white labour. I have had forty years' experience out of
England. The Chinese compare favourably with certain classes of labour. Of all the
different nationalities I have employed, I have always found our countrj-men the most
difficult to deal with, owing to their independence of character, and should not like to
•see them have less. The Chinese are docile, but they won't stand abuse and ill-
treatment, and stay with you. You can trust them to work and they are very grateful
for good treatment. I have found them very honest. We don't lock up against them.
The Chinese seem very clean in their persons, but they have no idea of sanitary ar-
rangement. My Chinese is as clean in his room as I am in my own, and so is the out-
side Chinaman, but they will throw everything outside. They are unsanitary. I don't
want servile people to deal with. I don't think Chinese are ser\'ile.

ON CHIXSSE AND J A PANES M IMMIGRATION 57

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Captain Edward liciklex' saj'S : I reside in Westholm on the E. & N. railroad, 46
miles from Victoria. 1 am a retired captain in the Ro^'al Navy. Have a r-anch ; foi'
se\ei'al years past mj' business has been ranching and clearing land. Am [lostmaster
and magistrate. I ver}- seldom empk)y Chinese. Chinese are not employed on ranches.
I have had Chinese for cooks several years ago. The average wage.s is $15 a month and
food. Cheap labour, regardless of colour, 1 say. Anyone to help the farmer make
money by. I have 225 acres and my son 200 acres. My son's property is nearly cleared.
Dairy, grain and fruit farm. I commenced with the Japs. I chopped and he piled it.
It is a grass run. Have fifteen cows and one hundred sheep. I have been seven years
there. I gave $5,000 for 265 acres. Cheap labour is necessary. I should not like to
see coolie labour except as an exigency. I have seen twelve Chinese in a house and they
were all friendly ; outside dirty. The average Jap will do as much as a white man except
at chopping. I am extremely favourable to white labour but cannot afFortl to pay for it.

There is only one white labourer in the whole district. There are none to be had.
What we want is more people to culti\'ate the soil i to come in with a little capital.
A Jap is more valuable about a farm than a white man because he will do all the small
chores and not be oti'ended.

We cannot raise produce just now. Every one of the farmers is trying to do the
work of three men. It is not for the want of will that more is not produced ; it is from
the w-ant of power. The small rancher can go out and get $2 per day and he can have
a Chinaman to do all the chores around the place at fifty cents per day. I am not in
favour of Chinese in this country ; God forbid I should be in favour of anything of the
kind ; but he is required temporarily ; he is far more decent than he is given credit.

Michael Finerty, farmer, lived four and a half miles from Victoiia, .says : I ha\e a
farm. I learned my trade as gardener and stone mason in Ireland. I came here in
1862. I don't follow my trade. I had to give up gardening. We used to sell our pro-
duce to green grocers. We would make $8, $9, $10, $20 a day. All were well satisfied.
We had cheap labour in those days, Indians. They were good woi'kers, and after a time
the Chinamen came and brought the smallpox and 5,000 Indians died of it. The
Chinese live cheaper'. Take their stuff around upon a pole and basket ; they sell much
cheaper. I could not compete. I followed it five or six years. All white men went
out of the business. They confine themselves to market gardening. They work for
farmers. A good white man could do as much as two or three Chinese. I don't think
the Chinese or Japs are necessary for the farmer. My farm is 160 acres. None of my
neighbours are in favour of Chine.se at all. They expect to live on the white race. I
don't agree with the last witness. The race we want is a white race that will be per-
manent and help build up the country. All we made we invested in property and make
a good home for ourselves.

Sanmel M. Robins, of Nanaimo, superintendent of the New Vancouver Coal Com-
pany, says : At this moment we have a larger number of Cliinese than usual clearing
land, namely, fifty-seven. I am rushing the clearing to get the spring crops in. Then
they will be dropped in large numbers. W'e have eight Chinese as farm hands proper.
I think the immigration of Chinese into this province should be entirely stopped, either
by proliibition or a ])rohibitive head tax. I have never engaged Japanese in clearing
land. When I sjieak of one I refer to the other. The company has cleared about 700
acres by Chinese labour, whilst the leaseholders under the company have cleared mostly
by Chinese labour, 600 or 700 acres more. I saj' mostly, because a good many have
done their own cleariiig, or engaged whites to clear, even if it cost three times what it
would cost with Chinese. Owing to the apparent supei-abundance of Chinese labourers,
my opinion is that none of the existing industries in the province would suffer by pro-
hibiting Chinese immigration. I don't think it w'ould be wise to put off the time foi'
excluding them. In fact, I think if it be an evil the sooner it is checked before it grows
to unmanageable dimension the better.

The results of farming have varied so every few years that I can hardly say whether
it is possible to clear land at wages paid to white labour and make a profit out of it as a
farming proposition. I believe farming in the last few years carried on scientifically

58 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

would be quite possible bv white men, hut ;i few vears back it would not have been
possible.

Alfred L. Hunt, an Englishman, but who has lived some years in the States, says :
I am a farmer. Resided in British Columbia a year and a half. I find no opening
here in my line of business. The Chinese are in market gardening. A man would
stand no chance for the Chinese peddling. A farmer could not do this.

Edmond Arthur Atkins, Reeve of Coquitlan, savs : I have re.sided there oflF and
on since 1S60, Engaged in farming for twenty years. I worTced mv own farm of from
thirty to tVirty acres. We want to have not so many Chinese and Japanese, but do not
exclude them altogether, because if we do we are going to get left. I have a Japanese
now at 815 a month. There are eighteen voters residing in the municipalitv. I was
foreman in Moody it Company's sawmill. I think -SlOO ought to keep them out prettv
nearly. A man cannot work for Jap's wage.s and keep a family.

I paid a man §45 a month and his board, and when Caledonia Day came along he
left me with twenty tons of hay to draw in. I have been left that way several times.
You cannot depend on them. It is just this way, if we go to work and get all the
Chinese and Japanese out of the country it will raise the wages to such an extent that
the farmers cannot possibly live. You see our ranches in this comitry have all to be
cleared up. If we have to pay 82 a day, w hich is the wages for white labour to-day, we
cannot possibly make enough ofl" the land to pay any such wages. I do not do anything
in market gardening. I am into mixed farming, supplving milk to the creamery and
raising hogs and cattle. I have paid a white man 830 a month and his board. I only
a.sked him to work from seven in the morning until six at night. He knew more than
I did about the ranches, and we had a few words, and he left right away, so I had to go
and hire a Japanese to do the work, and I had to do some of the work myself.

There are something over .'^,'200 acres in Pitt Meadows cleared.

My section of the country is not well settled. It is held mostly by speculators.
They wont sell for a price that settlers can pay. I think the Lower Fraser is badly fixed
with the same disease. The orientals have helped some of us. High labour has not
had anything to do with it not being settled. It is the speculators.

John Armstrong, for twenty-two yeai-s a farmer in Surrey, .several years councillor,
and five years reeve, says : The general view is that heretofore they have not been a
great detriment to the farmer, but in the future almost absolute restriction is adWsable.
When I look for a man they ask if there are Chinese and Japanese in the municipality.
If my neighbour employs a Jap at 810 I can't compete at 825 or 830 a month. The
sentiment is against any more coming in, and that applies as much to Japanese as to
Chinese. That is my own view and what I know to be their view. The ambition of
Chinese is to make money and send it away. There is probably a thousand of popu-
lation in our municipality, and all are farmers with the exception of a logging camp that
employs, say, a hundred men. We have farmers that grow from ime hundred and fifty
to two hundred tons of grain. The municipal vote is about two hundred, and mostlj'
the heads of families ; counting unregistered votes there are probably in the munici-
pality, say, 275 heads of families. There are sixty or eighty Chinese and Japs in the
municipality, two-thirds Chinese. They dig ditches and pile brush. The Chinese pre-
vent the settlers coming in. I had a Jap for two or three months once. I employ white
labour. I pay 825 a month, bed, board and washing. Years ago we paid from 830 to
835 a month ; sometimes I give less. Eleven years ago I let a job to a Chinaman to
clear twenty acres. Others get some slashing and ditching done, not hea\'y clearing.
The hea'i'y clearing is generally rlone bv white men. Heretofore the Chinese have done
a good deal of the slashing work, but for myself I got white men to do it the same as
the Chinese do, by contract at so much an acre. I give the preference to white men.
Ditching is a big item on a farm. Often a ditch costs more than to clear the land.
Chinese ha\e done a good deal of ditching in the delta lands, but in clay lands such as
mine is, it is too hard for the Chinese. I think the farmers could have got along with-
out the orientals to help them, and the final result w-ould have been better than it is.
I have turned away Chinese and .Japanese who have offered to work for six months for
SI 5, and some for less than that.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 59

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. Do you think if the orientals were not here you would get lots of white labour' '^
— A. Well, it would be lietter even if we had to pay a little more for it. In our muni-
eipality there is a great deal of wild land and white labour would settle it. White
settlers could work for six months on their land trying to clear it a little, and the other
part of the year they would work out for those who were able to hire them. White
settlers coming in here would be good workers and work more steady than tlie transient
men we have here now, because they would have homes and little holdings of their own.
A man wishing to settle down on a piece of land and make a little money on the side
would have no ditticultv in getting a job. A man of the kind ofiei'ing his services, .say
at $25 a month and his board, would ha\e no difficulty in getting a job if he were a
likely looking man.

Q. The inducements to go farming appear to be rather strong ; how do you account
for it that settlement has been so tardy I — A. I account for it on account of the hard
job to clear the land. It is hard for a poor man to start in.

Alder bottom lands are all taken up, but they are not worked. I account for it in
this way : the land has got into the hands of Loan Companies, and they are holding
them too high for people to go on and cultivate them.

Q. Do you think the presence of the orientals in the Province places any impe-
diment in the way of those lands being settled ? — A. I think they do hinder immi-
gration to a certain extent, of white people. I think the orientals are an obstacle in
the way of fui-thei' inunigration of white people, and the Loan Companies are an obstacle
in the way of bringing land under cultixation.

Q. I should like to have your opinicm as to one statement you made ; that they
have not been a great detriment to vou, but that almost absolute restriction would be
advisable. What do you mean ? — A. Well, that they should not be allowed to come in
more than fifty or one hundred in a year. I think that the facility for white labour
coming in here is better than it was some years ago, and I believe if the Chinese and
Japanese were stopped coming in here and white men were given to understand that
there was an opening for them here, the number of white men coming here would largely
increase, and we would have a good class of settlers here to develop the country, if the
land now held by speculators were offered at reasonable rates to actual settlers with a
little capital of their own.

Q. Well do you speak for the counti-y and the industries in it in making that state-
ment ? — A. I am speaking from my observation, and as the result of my experience of
some years' residence in the country, but I am speaking more for the farming community
with whom I am more intimately associated, and I am certain a good many of them
emiiloy cheap labour, Chinese and Japanese labour now, because they cannot get other
labour suitable.

Q. You hii-e men for six months. How would they find employment the other six
months? — A. In some cases they settle on adjoining lands, and when I do not employ
them they work on their own lands. It is an ad\'antagi> in that way to have white men
instead of Chinese.

Q. In your judgment do vou think the country needs a class of men like that more
than anything else in order that the lands of the country may be closely settled 1 — A.
Yes, certainly, anri then we would have better roads, and we would have schools and
churches, and the nearer you are to schools and churches the quicker the development
and settlement of the country will go on.

I think this question is impoi'tant from a national and family point of view rather
than from a business point of view. I think there is a danger of them becoming a
menace from a moral and national point of view. If they are allowed to come in at
S200 or |.300, in five years there will be five times more than now. I don't think .f 50
or $100 cuts any great figure. I think they should not be allowed to come at all. If
it were known that they were not coming in, many more whites would come in. If
there is any change made to prevent Chinese and Japanese or any other nationality
coming in here, very likely the farmers would be the last to feel it. A great many of
them have sufficient land cleared and can do with less work.

60 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Harry Nelson Rich, of Liulners Landing on the Eraser River, says : I am managing
Mr. McNeelej-'s large store and his farms. I am executor of the estate. His estate has
1,000 acres of land here, of which 700 are under cultivation. We raise ha_v, cattle and
supply dairy produce for the market. The land is about an average of the land in the
vicinity. Land liere is rented on shares, the tenant paying one-third to the landlord.

The average crop of hay is two tons of timothy per acre ; sometimes it will go four
and five tons per acre, but that is exceptional. Oats from a ton to a ton and a-half an
acre. Hay is worth $8 a ton. Oats are worth $32.50 to S35 a ton, of 2,000 pounds.
Last year oats sold at $2-5 a ton. Last year we bought them out of the field at $22 to
$23. In 1899 they were bought out of the field at $18 a ton. UnderstaTid, we all
thrash in the field here. The arrangement is for delivery on the wharf, a man can sell
it for $18 a ton. For the last four or five years we have done the buying for Brackman,
Iverr it Co. We bought from seventy to eighty thousand sacks of oats and imported
one hundred and twenty-five thousand sacks for our own use to sell to the ranchers. I
do not know of an instance of first-class land being leased, except to Chinese, who pay
about $20 an acre ; that would be the best. I have known a white man to pay $15 an
acre for one straight field, but a great part of the ranching here is done on shares, the
landlord getting one-third of the crop.

I am president of the Creamery Company. Last year we sold $22,000 worth of
butter at an average of 28i cents a pound. Fruit does not form an industry here.
There are small fruits raised, such as black and red currants and the like, but not many
are sold.

On a big farm we employ four white men at from $20 to $30 a month and board.
In harvest time of course we pay more. We have three Chinese there now. It will
average about three the year round in connection with the fai'm. We have Chinese
there doing all the ditching and clearing. We pay from $18 to $20 a month and they
board themselves. Thej" do ditching, milking and anything you want done. To-day
(May 20th) a good man}' have left Ladner and gone to the canneries.

The proportion of white labour and Chinese labour on other big farms I should say
is about the same ; on the Patterson farm abovit the same, eithei' Chinese or Japanese.
The small farms the people work themselves. This farming section of Ladner is about
eleven miles one way and seven and a half miles the other : that is south of the river,
the delta municipality in fact. There are some lands here as good as any we have.

Q. What proportion of those lands may be considered as big farms 1 — A. There is
the Pemberton, the Guichon and the Wellington farm, and the farm of William Ladner,
and that of Thomas E. Ladner, the British Columbia Land and Investment Company,
T. W. Patterson, McKee's farm, Christopher Brown, W. Coud}', H. D. Benson, the
Kirtland estate and H. Trim. These all own from three hundred acres up and there
may be one or two others. The rest of the land is divided into small holdings. The
average holding of the small owners, most of them have 160 acres. They are bringing
it under cultivation all the time more and more. I think the number of Chinese would
average three on the big farms. There is a big lot of them.

Q. Do \'ou find the Chinese as advantageous as white people on a farm i — A. Very
few of them can plough. They are good for choring around. They do milking and
other work around. If you want the Chinese to work you have to keep following them
up, where if you set a white man at a job they go on with it without you being present,
but I do not know what you can do without them. Some of the Chinese go fishing. I
am trying to hold back the wages of the Chinese just now to keep them at work.
There are very few white fishermen working on farms.

Q. What do they do after the fishing is over 1 — A. Lying around, a great many of
them doing little, if anything. About fifteen men work here in the saw mill ; I do not
know how many Chinese are employed there. I have been here since 1880, and sixteen
years in connection with the present business. I was in the cannery business before that.
We never think of getting anyone else but a Chinaman for draining and ditching. It
has been that way ever since I came here. We suppose if a Chinaman has taken a
contract he is making $1 a day. I do not think I ever knew of a white man taking a

ox CHIXESE AXD JAPAXESE IMMIGRATION 61

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

coutract for digging or ditching in this iiuinicipality. Farmers do ditching and draining
themselves to a verj' small extent.

The land here was reclaimed in the first instance by digging and ditching by Chinese
since I came here. Wet weather generally commences in the fall, about Octobei-. It
is verj' seldom we have a wet hay seeding, only one in twenty years ; only one or two
bad harvests. Our harvest is two weeks' earlier on account of the land being reclaimed.
Some of the land has been bought for fishermen and men around the canneries. I sup-
pose about eight fishermen and four other men have bought land about Pemberton. It
is a\ailable at .$90 an acre. The same land would rent for §-5 or .$6 an acre. I think
a man could pay that and make a living off it. The land they pay -SDO an acre for
is dyked and drained. No roots to be cleared oft". It is worth from .?70 to 880 an
acre. Pemberton is the only man who has cut the land up into small lots. Hay some-
times goes up to -SIO a ton. Swedes were employed on the dykes in 189.5. It was
mostly done bj" a contractor, by Swedes.

Q. What do you consider you would be justified in paying the white man as a farm-
hand compared with the Chinese? — A. I would not hire a Chinese to run the plough.

Q. Well, to do the work the Chinese work at! — A. I would pay a white man
about one-third more than I would a Chinaman.

Q. Could ranching be done here by white labour at a profit at present prices \ — A.
I do not think so. It is not obtainable. If it could be obtained I would rather have
white labour. In heavy work on lantl I do not think the Japanese would earn more
than their grub.

Q. Has anyone ever made an attempt to break land into small holdings and to dis-
pose of it to fishermen ? — A. Only Mr. Pemberton.

Q. How has it succeeded \ — A. Very well. I think such a system would be very
successful. Of course it has to be land near the river, of holdings fi-om two and a half
to five acres.

Oats would average 825 a ton for the last five years. I have known oats to sell
some years down to $1-5 a ton. Potatoes are very .scarce to-day. They are worth S2.3
a ton. They average eight tons to the aci'e. I have known twenty-five tons off an acre.
I could not say if we could supply the market here without importing, if the land on
the river was brought under cultivation. A friend of mine brought down from Edmonton
this year three thousand tons of oats ; most of it went north. I do not know if
Edmonton affects our market here. The United States does not now affect the oat
market.

The hay from the Yukon comes east of the Cascade ; some was bought in British
Columbia this year and sent north. Our market is mostly local. There is no export
market here. We have no need for an export market here yet.

A. S. Emory, of Victoria, carpenter and joiner, says : I work for wages, .$.3 for
house work and .^S.-SO for shifts work. I came from Manchester, England. I resided
on the west coast of Vancouver Island for a little time. I took up land there with the
intention of farming. If I could have sold my products at a reasonable figure the chances
are I would have remained on the farm. The field was too limited at that time, for one
reason, and another reason was the Chinese competition.

I only took up five acres of land, about fifty miles from Victoiia. I grew potatoes and
some oats for cattle. The potatoes were what I had for sale. I could not get more than
§7. .50 a ton for them after paying freight and whai-fage.

I think the proper way would be for the government to open up certain districts
and clear the land, then they could get men to take up the land. They could give
employment by this means to a great manj* white labourers who, with the aid of
machinery, would clear the land to advantage. If the development of the country were
encouraged this way a great many people would go out to farm, and there would be
advantage all round. In this a government can do such work to better advantage than
individuals can.

A man clearing land gets a lot of valuable timber. If properly handled it might
pay for the clearing of the land. Alen have not capital enough to handle it, and have
it properly marketed. The goverinnent could manufacture it for so much and make a
clear profit.

62 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

'William Joliii Taylor, barrister, who has a large stock farm iieai- Victoria, says :
The Chinese have cleared a good bit of land on the island. I think it would lia\"e been
cleared by white men if the Chinese were not here. It costs more to clear heavy timber land
than you can buy cleared land for. It must be cleared bj- machinery. It is not expensive ;
.*150 would pay for machinery. Here it costs more to clear an acre of timber land
than it costs to clear fifty acres in the North-west Territories. I think the agriculture
resources of British Columbia are underestimated, though better wheat and oats are
grown in the North-west. There are vast parts of British Columbia that require no
clearing. If we had twenty thousand whites instead of Chinese it would be better for
the countrv. I think their presence only affects the land indirectly. Everything that
affects the commercial well-being of the province is a fletrunent, and I think the presence
of Chinese and Japanese has that effect, and therefore indirectl}' it affects the value of
land. I think whites could clear land as well as Japs and Chinese, and at about the
same cost. Dyking could be done better by whites than by Japs and Chinese.

Five years ago we imported one million, nine hundred thousand dollars woi'th of
farm products through Victoria, exclusive t>f what could not be grown in the prov-ince.

Joseph Hunter, General Superintendent of the Esquimalt and Nanaimo Railway,
says : Chinese and Japansse have cleared a good deal of land along the line of the rail-
way. I think I would prefer to have a white man at $2 a daj', clearing land, as far as the
simple question of being profitable is concerned. Land clearing ought to be done by
white men, and better done by them ; it depends on the class of work : the Chinaman
as a general rule is a very poor axeman. You can get Chinese to do part of the clearing
of the land cheaper than the white man, and they will do it as well too, but there are
numbers of them who lose money on their contracts as well as white men. As far as
taking up the company's land is concerned, the displacement of Chinese in our employ
in favour of white men, would make no difference at all. Our white employees do not
seem to care about taking up land ; I think they rather like to stay in town.

AMERICAN OPIMON.

Walter J. Honeyman, dealer in cannery and fishery supplies, of Portland, Oregon,
says : The Exclusion Act caused great inconvenience. We would never have had half
the land cleared without tlie Chinese. The Cliinese work in canneries now. It is too
expensive to clear land now.

There are large numbers of settlers coming in now and settling on the land in the
State. They look around and then they clear up a little of the land. Most of them
settle on cleared land, on prairie land. Life is too short to go in and cut a farm
out of the forest. I nevei' had any land cleared, and never went into the question at
all. I have had no experience in that. Most of the clearing that is done has been done
by the Chinese in past years.

A. A. Bailey, seci'etarj- of the Federated Trades, Portland, Oregon, sa3's : The
enforcement of the Exclusion Act did not cause any complaint. There was plenty of
white labour. It cost a little more, but it was better work. The men who had gone
on the lands in the States of Washington and Oregon, as a rule, to make a living, clear
up the land themselves. They have no money to spend on hiring people to clear the
land. They come here to settle and make homes for themselves, and they get along
nicely without either the Chinese or Japanese. A very small percentage of the lands
under cultivation in this State has been cleared by Chinese. If the Chinese have done
anv clearing it is principally along the line of the railways. That is not in the way of
farms. Nearly all the settlements ha\'e been made by white men. The present con-
dition of the farming industrj' in this State does not owe its progress to the presence
and work of the Chinese. Very few Chinese have cleared any lands for settlement in
Oregon.

F. V. Meyers, Commissioner of the State Bureau of Labour Statistics, San Fran-
cisco, California, says : The Chinese were never engaged enough in farming in California
to make them a factor to be considered.

ox CHIXESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATIOX 63

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

H. 8. Rowe, jMaj'or of Portland, Oregon, saj's : I do not think the Chinese lielped
very much to develop our industries. Of course farming is an extensive industry, and
in varit)us ways the Chinese were emphjyed to clear up land. They set to work to clear
up land, but that land could have been clearerl up b}' cheap white labour as well as it
is cleared up now. There is an extensive territory fit for farming and very few people
occupying it. We do not want Chinese or Japanese to occup)' our farming lands.
What we want is Eurc)peans, white people, to settle up tlie country <ind develop our
resources. The Chinese cannot do that. The Chinese are not used much in growing
fruit. The fruit industry of California might not have been developed as far as it has
been with(3ut the aid of the Chinese. They are not now employed to any considerable
extent upon farms.

The area of land reclaimed by the dyking works along the Fraser River hy the
Government of British Columbia is as follows : —

Chmiwaek 19,811-40 acres.

Matsqui 10,062-15 "

Maple Ridge 8,448-83 "

Coquitlan 3,290-96 "

Pitt Meadows 2,299-27 "

4.3,912-61

The cost of the works is about .S7-50,000.

SUMMARY.

The Chinese ha\ e in the past been employed in clearing land in and near cities and
towns, and to a limited extent on farms.

The cost of clearing hea\y timbered land is such that it cannot be done with profit,
even by Chinese labour, for farming purposes. If large areas are to be cleared, explosives
and machinery, with white labour, will be found the cheapest. Small holdings may be
cleared up by actual settlers who desire to make a home for themselves, provided they
can obtain assistance by working at other emploj-ruents. The delta lands and lands
along the Fraser will doubtless be the fii'st to be brought under cultivation to any large
extent.

The dyking on the delta lands in the early years was done largely by Chinese ; of
late years, by machinery. In the Ladner section, which is eleven miles by seven and a
half miles in extent, are about fifteen large farms, of three hundred acres or more. The
rest of the land is divided into small holdings, \vhich average about one hundred and
sixty acres.

On one farm of a thousand acres, four white men and three Chinese are employed.
This would seem to be about the proportion on the large farms. On the small farms of
one hundred and sixty acres, or less, they are not employed. The owners do the work
themselves. The Chinese are not employed in ploughing on the large farms, but do
ditching, milking, cht)res, &e. They are paifl from .§18 to f20 a month and Ijoard
themselves. White men are paid §20 a month and board.

In one instance land has been divided up into small holdings of from two and a
half to five acres, to sell to fishermen at !590 an acre.

A white man is regarded as worth one-third more than the Chinaman. It is said
white labour is not obtainable ; if it could be obtained it would be preferred.

The result of the eWdence in regard to this all-important question shows a strong
consensus of opinion opposed to further immigration of either Chinese or Japanese.

Their mode of life and small cost of living make it easy for them to undersell in the
markets and leave a good profit.

The}- have no homes to build and keep up, iu> wife or children to support, and no
contribution to churches to make. The cost of their clothes, board and lodging is

64 REPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

tritlinir. Tliev live in small sliaiities and crowd together even worse in the country tium
in the cities, six to ten and fifteen in a room.

White men will not hire where other, or neighbouring, farm liands are Chinese or
Japanese. On the other hand, settlement is promoted where farm labourers can take up
land ; work for six months on their own laud, and the other part of the year work for
those who are able to hire them on their farms. This is of mutual advantage to the
new .settlers and those better established.

Witnesses emphasized the fact that the more thickly settled a community is the
more readily are established schools, churches and all the conditions of civilized life.
The presence of the Chinese to the extent of their numbers retards settlement and
promotes isolation, and so renders social life difficult or impossible, and the locality an
undesirable place to live in ; and a dread of the aggravation of this evil in the future
still further discourages settlement.

The settler cannot depend solely on the land, but chietly for some years on what he
can earn outside. What then is his position \

He would first and naturally turn to market gardening as incidental tt) the farm,
but here he is met by Chinese, who practically control this important branch of agricul-
ture, first by their cheap labour, and then b\' the system of j)eddling their truck in
baskets on poles. This has destroyed or prevented markets. (There are no markets in
British Columbia, except at New Westminster, although large public market buildings
were erected in the cities of Victoria and Vancouver.) Should a white man try to sell
from house to house he is met by ' John ' at the door. Vegetables required to-day ?
No ; but when the basket comes the sale is made. The white farmer has Ijeen driven
from this field.

If he has wood upon his land he cannot cut it into cordwood and sell it at a profit.
The Chinese and Japanese undersell him ; if he has timber suitable for shingle bolts he
is met by the Japanese contractor, with \\hom it is impossible to compete, for the same
reason. His oidv outlook then will be to get work if possible, and he applies at the
sawmill ; The Chinese and Japanese are both there, and the latter are increasing in
numbers. At the shingle mill the Chinese are mostly employed under a boss Chinaman,
who has the contract.

Will he send liis children tti^ the canneries during the fishing season I They can
only get employment when work cannot be oveitaken by the regularly employed Chinese
staff. (It may be noted in this connection that this source of employment would neces-
saril}' be uncertain as to its duration having regard to the fluctuating demand for labour
in this industry.)

If he turns to fishing in the summer season, there he finds the Japanese in such
nimibers that, except in great runs, the individual catch is so small that the profits have
been cut down to a mere nothing.

Under these circumstances the .settler often abandons his holdings, upon which he
has spent more or less time and money, and is forced to quit and the mortgagee takes
possession ; and too often he crosses the line, where there is a Law of Exclusion against
the Chinese, where thej' are not employed in the mills, nor sliingle business, nor in the
woods, and where, rightly or wrongly, he thinks he has a better chance.

This condition of things is becoming worse and worse from year to yea\-, cause and
effect act and react on each other, increasing the difficulty.

It delays settlement and keeps back the country in every aspect that goes to make
a permanent self-supporting and prosperous people. It fills the avenues of labour and so
prevents the settler from assisting himself to eke out a living mi til his lands are cleared.

The verdict of the great body of agriculturists is in favour of a high restriction or
total exclusion.

ox CHiyESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 65

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHAPTER VIII.— MARKET GARDENING.

This busine.ss, which .seems to be peculiarly suited to the Cliinese, is in their haiid.s,
with tririing e.xception. Tliere are engaged in market gardening in Victoria 1 98 Chinese ;
in Vancouver 13-t ; in New Westniin.ster 70. ^

To give an idea of tlie extent to wliich this is cai-ried on by the Chinese, reference
may be had to the evidence of Lee Dye, of Victoria. He .says : There are twelve market
gardeners. I have four gardens, consisting of 193 acres lea.sed land. The lowest rent
per acre is §5, and the highest SI 2.50. I pay taxes. I supply steamboats and wholesale
merchants at Vancouver and Victoria. The business was established thirty-two vears
ago by my father. He put in $4,000 cash, and with the credit it comes to about §10,000.
We have four partners and twenty-four men ; to be increased to forty-eight men
in the spring. My sales amounted last year to $24,185.25. The lowest wages paid a
green hand was .?12 per month and board and lodging ; the highest $25 and board and
lodging — average $18 to $19 per month. I have been here seventeen years. My wife
went to China five years ago. I have two children : they are in China. I took them
there to be educated. The oldest is ten years and the youngest six vears. I expect to
go next winter and bring them out.

I own property here to the value of about $1,500 or $2,000 ; my firm to the value
of about $30,000. It costs from $90 to $100 an acre to clear the land. If the trees are
large it costs from $140 to $150. My land cost from $110 to $120 per acre. The lease
is for ten and fifteen years. My lease is three years free of rent and the owner of the
land pays the taxes. After three years the rent is about $8 an acre. If it i.s good land
and easy to be cleared, then on an average about the foui'th year it would pay my ex-
penses and the seventh year it will pay me back all the labour and the expense besides.
I would prefer to own my own land. I would have to pay for borrowed monev about
eight per cent.

This witness had an accui-ate account of his receipts aiid expenses, and had con-
flucted his business with much success. Probably he was one of the most successful
market gardeners in the Province. He employs exclusi\elv Chinese labour, except
occasionally white labour for ploughing. His plant he valued at $15,000, including
eighteen horses, seven wagons, etc., kc. He paid for horse feefl $1,187, fertilizers
$671, horse shoeing $201, repairs $250, harness and repairing .$250, seeds, etc., $300, for
veterinary surgeon $150. Last year he paid for rent $1,100, and taxes .$205. He sold
of his produce to white people $16,000 worth and to Chinese $8,000 worth.

This witness offers the most favourable instance of a successful business man that
this class affords. He can scai'cely be called a labouring man, and it may be helpful
here to stop for a moment and examine the result, as an illustration of the wliole class
of Chinese market gardeners. His business is successful ; it has been conducted on
business lines. He employs a large number of men. He supplies that, which, if not
produced in the pl■o^■ince, must be imported from the States. Is it not desirable that
that class of Chinese at all e\ents should be encouraged ?

Sing Chung Yung, of Nanaimo, says : I am a maiket gardener and work one hun-
dred acres. I ha^'e been here twelve years. I bi-ought fi'om China .$2,000 (Mexican).
My wife and two children are in China. They are eleven and nine years old. I \isited
China and remained fourteen months. I dress in English clothes all except the queue.
I would like to bring my wife and children here. She don't like to come. The people
in this country talk so much against Chinese that I do not care to bring them here.

I have eight horses, one colt, ploughs — eveiything. Their value is §4,830, includ-
ing impro\ements.

Denies that he uses human excrement on the garden.

54—5

66 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSI OX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
Statement of the business of 8ing Chung Yung for the past year : —

EXPENSES.

Rent of farm s 720 00

Horee feed 1,100 00

Wages paid 2,f<t<0 0(t

Prorisions for farm hands : 860 00

Repairing of wagons, &c . . 250 00

Seeds...' ■:.. ..• • 100 00

School tax 12 00

Post office box and stanijis 10 00

Total 85,852 00

Book debts, bad 500 00

86,352 00

Total sales 67,500 00

Expenses, &c 6,352 00

81,148 00

On Kee, of Xanaimo, lias one hundred acres, thirty cleared. Ha-s iii\ested 83,520.
Has a wife, two daughters and a son in China. The daughters are 21 and 22 years old,
respectively, and the boy 15 years old. He also denies that he uses liuman excrement
on the garden.

Statement of business of On Kt^e for the past year : —

EXPENSES.

Rent of farm •■:^ 40(1 00

Horse-shoeing 48 00

Provisions for farm hands 523 00

Hor,se feed * : , 520 00

Repairinsj wagons, itc ? 112 00

Seed ....'. 100 00

Wages 1,600 00

Repairing house 300 00

Total 83,603 00

Total .sales 3,012 00

Loss for last year S 591 00

Let us follow the evidence a little further.

Andrew Strachan, who is engaged in lioi'ticulture, says : I had to give up market
gardening. I ctiuld not sell my produce. The reason wsis the people buy from the
Chinese who peddle their stuff in baskets. I at present cultivate about ten acres,
principally fruit. I think tliere aie sixty or seventy basket peddlers in Victoria. The
majority of private families buy from basket peddlers. I came liere in 1871. There
were a great many more w hite people raising vegetables than now. Ten years agt)
market gai-dening was in the hands of the Chinese : it has remained so e\er since.
Market gardening is entirely in the hands of the Chine.se. Twenty Chinese can li\e as
cheaply as a man and his family of five or six. I think twenty Chinamen can live on
840 a month. I engaged a Chinaman for six months. I paid him 818 a
month. A bag of rice at 81.75 and 25 cents worth of sugar was his food for a
month. I paid a Japanese last year for picking fruit 815 a month. I employed him
because I could not get anyime else. I do not usually employ Jajianesc. If 1 could

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 67

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

get white men I would rather pay them $1^ a day than paj' a Japanese 50 cents a daj'.
White labour is scarce, and the reason that white labour is scarce is that wllite men
cannot compete with the Chinese and Japanese. They cannot exist or live alongside of
tlieni. 8o many people employ what they call cheap labour, they drive the white man
out and they have to leave the country.

Joseph Shaw said : I was a market gardener in England. I came here six years
ago. 1 came here with the intention of going into that business, but wa,s advised that
I could not compete with the Chinese. For that reason I did not engage in the
business.

A white gai'dener cannot possibly compete with them ; yi_)U cannot employ labour
and compete with them ; and then if you do produce \egetables anfl get around to the
liouses in an endeavour to .sell them, when you go to the dooi- the first to answer you
would be a Chinese and he at once says, 'not want any.' They make it impossible for
a man like myself with a wife and seven children to compete with them at all. I'hev make
it inip(.)ssible t\)r me to carry on a market garden and earn an honest living fi-om that. I
cannot compete with them at all. I cannot make a i-easonable li\ing and clothe my seven
children. , The class of stuti' they raise would be only classed as second class in the
English market. They sell at a low price. I have never seen but very few bed.s of
first class lettuce grown by the Chinese. I remember seeing one good bed of lettuce
grown by Chinese at Darcey Island, and I certainly could not have used that myself because
of the offensive t)dour from it. I had to go to the windward side of it. Dr. Duncan was there
with me. He was the Medical Health Othcer, and he had to go round to the other side
to get rid of the smell of the excrement that had been used very largely to force the
growth of lettuce. I have a little bit of ground and have gone into hay-making and
anything that turns .up, and n(jw I am farming in a small way on about twenty acres of
land. I do not^ try to raise vegetables for the market, but I am hoping the time will
.soon come that I «ill be able to do so. They do not go into general fai'ming. So far
they are not competitors in general farming. I never employed but one Chinaman ;
that was to cut wood.

If I could Ijuy machinery cheaper I could .sell cheaper. If I li\ed in the United
States I could buy the agriculture machinery at one-half wliat it costs me here. The
manufacturer here is protected by the farm labourers.

Henry Atkinson, landscape and market gardener, who has resided in Victoria ten
years, says : Market gardening is entirely under their control now in the city. I came
"here from the Old Country ten years ago with the intention of starting a market garden.
I brought my family out here. I was a market gardener in the Old Country, and I
was led to beliexe that I could get a good business in market gardening here. I was
■\'ery mutji disaiipointed. The difficulties were that the Chinese had piuctically the
monopoly cif the Inisiness of raising vegetables, and theii' peddling those vegetables about
from floor to dooi' was another great difficulty. Tliere were no stoi'es here which you
covdd su]iply and get cash for your vegetables. It was all truck business, but the great
difficulty in the business, which has continued up to the present time, is the Chine.se and
their peddling \egetables from door to door. We lia\e a white elephant in the shape of
a market building here. I know gai'deners striving at the present time to .sell their pro-
duce, going around to the places ti'ying to get customers, and they do not want it.
^^'hen a white gardener goes to a house with vegetables he finds a Chinese cook there,
and the Chinese cook does not want vegetable.s raised by the white man. I know the
Chinese cook militates against their being able to do business.

Vegetables only come from California when vegetables are scarce. In England a
great many of the early vegetables come from France and Spain. They come in two or
three weeks before the vegetables in England ;ire reafly.

The Chinese can live on so little that white gardeners cannot possil)lv compete with
them.

Tliere is a small commission paid ^etween the Chinese cook and the Chinese peddler.
I know from Chinamen who have told me.

[n England a man may ha\e twenty woi'kmen (lanflscape gardeners) and mav have
woik for them all the year round, but here you cannot emplov one white man because
54^.^?,

68 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

you cannot keep him at work for a greater part of the year. I have advised all my
friends not to come here, because there are no openings here for white men. The lowest
wages of labourers in England tliat I know of in towns is foui- shillings a day. "Wages here
#2 to 82.50 per day. The purchasing power of 82 a day here is better than the pur-
chasing power of four shillings a day there, provided the wages were steady, but the
trouble is I cannot get bevond six months' work in my business here.

There is no market house in Victoria. Vegetables are peddled from house to house
in baskets by Chinamen, and as nearly all the cooks and domestics are Chinamen, it
may readily be seen why white men have practically yielded this field to Chinamen. If
a w hite man applies to a Chinese cook to sell vegetables the answer is : ' none are
wanted ; ' if a Chinaman apjilies he .sells.

James Thomas Smith, who has a f ami of 160 acres about six miles from Vancouver,
says : The Chinese are doing us out of our market here, in the vegetable line prin-
cipally. We have brought a few vegetables to the market, but we cannot compete with
the Chinese. We cainiot raise vegetables and sell them at the price the Chinese sell.
The Chinese have control of the market. I have a knowledge of their methods of raising
vegetables frtmi personal obser\ation. Our methods differ. We do not use the same
stut}'. They use their own water. They save it all winter in jars. They take it out
and pour it on the vegetables, celery, lettuce, tui'nips and carrots. They do not use it
on potatoes, but they use it on most of the other kinds of vegetables that they grow
during the season. The stuff is poured on the top of the leaves of those vegetables. I
have seen it done, and dozens of other farmers have seen the same.

Sam Hop, Chinese market gardener, stated ; I know Mr. J. T. Smith. My hold-
ing is near his. I use nothing but -horse manure on my garden. I sold the ju-oduce, a
load of turnips, to Mr. Smith. He used them for his house purposes and to feed the
horses and cattle that he had. He told me that he was going to use the« for the house.

William Daniels, a farmer, South Vancouver, says : The Chinese can grow vege-
tables as good as mj'self. I cannot compete with them because they work more hours
than I do, and they get their countrymen to work cheaper for them than I can get
w-ork done for. They have no families to keep like I have. The Chinese are good
.tenants and pay their rent promptly. I have observed their raethdHs of cultivation
during ten years, and 1 think they are \'ery good market gardeners. I have heard state-
ments about the objectionable metln)ds adopted by Chinese market gardeners, but I have
never seen any of those practices. I eat vegetables grown by Chinese and am not afraid
to do so. They are all right.

William James Brandrith, secretary of Fruit Growers' Association for the Province,
says : The Chinese are a menace to health from the way they use human excrement in
their market gardens. I have .seen them u.sing it.

Joseph D. Palmer, of Vancouver, landscape gardener, says : They (householders)
get their ideas from me and get Chinese to carry them out. They affect me in looking after
ground, and they drive away numbers of men, useful men in a garden but not practical
gardeners. They have largely got control of that work. I can't say how many white
men have been superseded. Many gardeners, six or eight, have told me that they had
given up theii- work. I consider Chinese a curse to the country. I had to stop
writing to our people to come here. In my ten years of landscape gardening in Seattle
I never met a Chinese. There are no Chinese employed in gardening in Seattle.

Mah Jo, Chinese, restaurant keeper of Rossland, stated that there were from one
hundred to one hundred and fifty Chinamen in Rossland who worked in gardens in
summer and cut wood and cleared places in winter.

Gordon W. Thomas, Cedar Cottage District, near Vancouver, says : There are
Chinese market gardeners near me. We cannot compete with them in the market.
Their mode of living is so much cheaper than ours and their labour is also cheaper. I
ha\ e never known anyone who could hire them at market gai-dening. Onh' one has a
family that I know of and he lives on Lulu Island. The rest live together, from five to
fifteen men, according to the amount of land. They cook for themselves. They have
no home life and no families. They are law abiding.

ox CHIXESE AXD JAl'AXESE IMMWRATIOX 69

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

I know for a fact that these hibourers working for Chinp.sc market gai'dciiers staved
for three years, or until they pay the expenses of the man wlio brought them out.
Then the market gardeneis send for a fresh supply again, and those that have .served
their time are turned lnose on the country. When they become proficient in the work
they demand more wages.

Twenty years ago at Cedar Hill near Victoria 1 was on a ranch when they were
irrigating. They had a large pit five or six feet deep and ten feet square, and this was
filled with human filth, and they had large iron ladles on tlie end of poles, and they
digged this filth out into buckets and irrigated green vegetables with it, caulifiower.s and
cabbages and radishes, and several other things. I saw it done two years ago nearwhei'e I
li\ed. They had barrels instead of pits. It was put on spinach, cabbage and cauli-
flower. I would not like to swear it is done generally, Init it is my firm belief that
it is so.

Dr. O. Meredith Jones, of Victoria, says : I think there ai'e other things far more
dangerous than leprosy, such as the improper use of manures in the raising of vegetables.
I think that is far more dangerous to the community at large. Lepri:)sy is a \"ery slow
thing. I ha\"e no pei'sonal knowledge of such conditions ha^ ing engendered disease, but
there is no doubt they are a xei'v dirty people. Their vegetables are very dangerous.

Dr. Robert McKechnie, Health Otiicer of Xanaimo, says : As to filthy practices,
I would like to mention that one commonly finds in some dark corner a coal (jil tin for
the accommodation of urine. I took tbe trouble to trace what became of the urine
contained in these tins. I visited tlie Chinese ranch. This is a rather extensive market
garden. Going through the buildings I found a small shed opening on to a lai'ge store
room. In this shed were .some twelve barrels holding from fifteen to twenty gallons
each. Two were half full of urine and the rest showed the\' had been used in the same
way. In an em])ty stable I discovered a dozen more presenting the same appearance,
and from the fact of the urine being saved in ' Chinatown ' and a stock of it found on a
\egetable fann, I concluded that popular report was true and that this litpiid was vised.
If typhoid fevei- existed in ' Chinatown ' it is a fact that baccilla is excreted by the
kidneys, and using it on green vegetables \\ould cai-ry the disease ; even if it were used
on the soil it might be dangerous. I don't know of a case of tviihoid amongst them.
They do not report their cases.

Many other witnesses confii'med this practice of Chinese gardeners, but it was as
distincti\ely and positively denied by them.

Your Commissioners think this practice was and still is followed, though not to the
same extent now as formerly, and more secretly ; and bv some of the better market
gardeners perhaps not at all at tlie present time.

The medical witnesses who were called undoubtedly regard this jiractice as a constant
menace to health.

.\MERIC.\\ OPINION.

A. H. Grout, Labour Commissioner, Seattle, .says : Market gardening l)y Chinese
in the city and neighbourhood has been almost entirely superceded by white labour.
Italians principally. It is hard to say or to find out what is the reason for the change.
It may have harl relation to the methods of the Chinese in market gardening, but I
t-annot say positi\ely. At one time, fifteen years ago, the Chinese were extensively
engaged in market gardening, but I do not know of any Chine.se market gardeners now.
I do not know the reason of the change. It was after the Chinese were expelled from
Seattle. I came here two or three years after that. They were not really excluded.
There was an attempt to exclude them, but the citizens representing law and order
pre\ented any liar,sh measures. In Tacoma they were excluderl and have continued
excluded.

Henry Foi-tman, iiresident of the Alaska Packers' Association. San Francisco,
says : The Chinese now aie the principal laisers of vegetables heie. They do a great
deal of market gardening, and we have vegetable canneries here. I think the asparagus
business is entirely in the hands of the Chinese. The land is owned by the whites and

70 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the canneries are owned and operated by whites. The vegetable exported from California
to British Columbia is largely grown by the Chinese.

F. V. Meyers, Commissioner of the Bureau of Labour Statistics, San Francisco,
says : The Chinese engage a great deal in market gardening. It is fallen into their
hands to a considerable extent. I would say from my observation and from the informa-
tion at my command, that from forty to fiftv per cent of the market gardening here is
flone by the Chinese. I do not know that the question has e\er arisen as to whether or
not tliere was any menace to health from the Chinese by reason of the methods empk)ved
in market gardening. It is a matter of course of scientific knowledge that certain
manures are good for use in the raising of \egetables, but the manner of their use is of
great importance. I do not think that human excrement is used here. You will find a
great deal of market gardening done by Italians here. About fiftv per cent of the
market gai-denini; here is done bv Italians, Poituguese and other nationalities.

Many instructive facts are to be obtained from this industry, the natui-al adjunct
of farming.

The Chinese ha\e this business almost eutirelv in their own hands.

They rent the land and pay a very high rent. Frequently they take land uncleared.
They lease land uncleared for ten or fifteen veai's. For the first three years without
rent : after that for §5 to 812 an acre, an average of 8t^ an acre rent.

In one case it cost to clear the land o\er 8100 an acre. In another case 8-tOO was
paid for one hundred acres, with only tliirty cleared : and in another case 8700 rental
for one hundred acres In another case 8320 annual rental was paid for thirty-two acres.

The above rentals were s\\orn to bv Chinese gardeners. !Much iiigher rentals were
mentioned by other witnesses.

The etfect of those high rentals is to keep up the price of land suitable for market
gardening beyond the reach of white settlers who cannot compete for ob^-ious rea-sons.

The Chinese live in shacks and board themsehes, or if boarded by the ' boss ' he
has his profits on the provisions. From five to fifteen men li^e in one shack.

They can be hired for 83 and 84 and as high as 812 a month and board. For old
and skilled hands the wages are higher, ranging from 812 to 82.5 a month. Of this
class the average would be from 817 to 818 a month, and board.

Thev are either unmairied or their families are in China. There are probably from
six to eight hundrerl Chinamen engaged in this business. We only heard of one who
had his family here. Under normal conditions this number of workingmen should
represent a population of at least three thousand, contributing to the schools, ehui'ches,
social life, and general well-ljeing of the community. In the one case they are citizens
in the proper .sense of the term ; in the other they cannot in any sense be called citizens,
nor are they likely to become so.

They prevent social life wherever they come. The white man with a family will
not settle in their neighbourhoofl if he can avoid it. They are separate from the commu-
nity and take as little part in the interests that go to make up a desirable neighbour-
hood as the dumb animal, and we found no place, either in Canada or the United
States, where there has iDeen a change in this regard among that class.

Over three millions of agricultural products are importefl into British Columbiit
yearly, including large quantities of market truck.

At San Francisco we were informed that forty or fifty per cent of the market
gardening of that State is still in the hands of the Chinese, and, further, that of the
vegetables exported to British Columbia from there, nearly all are grown by Chinese.
In Washington State fifteen years ago the Chinese were largely engaged in this indus-
try, but tt)-day they are entirely displaced by whites.

We believe that agriculture and market gardening would have lieen much further
advanced if there were no Chinese to keep out those who would otherwise go into the
business. It is our firm conviction that this great interest never will be developed to
its true proportions so long as it is blighted by the presence of these people.

Oy CHINESE MfD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 71

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHAPTER IX.— COAL MINING INDUSTRY.

Coiil niining is one of the chief industries of British Cohnnbia. Tiie total output
for the year 1900 anujuiited to 1,590,179 tons, of which 914, 18S tons of coal and 51,757
tons of coke were exported. The Crow's Nest Pass colliery output was L*06,S03 tons,
leaving 1,383,376 tons as the output of the Vancouver Island collieries.

There are no Chinese employed in the Crow's Nest Pass colliery.

The aggregate outjjut for all Vancouver Island coal mines for 1900 exceeds that of
1899 by 180,175 tons. The report of the Minister of Mines .say.s : — 'There has been a
steady demand both in the home and foreign markets for the hard bituminous coal
produced by Vancou\'er Island mine.s, and woi'k has been constant at all the collieries.'

These mines may be divided into two groups : — Those operated by the New Van-
couver Coal Mining and Land Company under the management, for the last eighteen
years, of Samuel M. Robins ; and the Wellington colliery in Douglas district, known as
E-xtension Mine, c)perated by the ^^'ellington Colliery Company, Limited, the Union
colliery, opei'ated by the Union Colliery Company, and the Alexandra collier}', operated
by the Wellington Colliery Company, Limited, of which ]Mr. F. D. Little is general
manager. For con\enience the former will be referred to as the New Vancouver Coal
Mines, and the latter as the Dunsnniir Mines.

It is stated in the annual report of the Minister of Mines for the year ending
December 31, 1900, that the total number of men employed in and about the Vancouver
Island collieries is 3,701 ; of these 568 are Chinese, 51 Japanese, and the rest whites.
Assuming this to be an accurate statement for that year, the number of Chinese and
.Japanese employed in the coal mines has considerably increased during the early part of
the year 1901, for, from the evidence of the managei-s of the Island Coal Mines, it
appears that the Vancouver Coal Company employs 1,33G men, of whom 1,161 are white
men and 175 are Chinese. No Japanese are employed by this company.

At the Dunsmuir Union Mine 877 men are employed, of whom -112 are white, 363
Chinese and 102 .Jajianese. Chinese and Japanese are largely employed underground
in the Union Mine, and ai'e engaged in every kind of work, as will appear from the
following statement furnished by the general manager: —

Men employed at the Union Mine, Cumberland.

Underground.

Whites.

Chinese.

Jai anese.

Miners

Helpers . ...

Runners..

Drivers

203
15

8
30

157

6
40
16

Track

Brattice. .

Labourers

Timbering. . .
Uuiler^roimd-

-Other work

Topnien.

2
7

16
17

1
2

301

261

1 1

Carpenters. .

Blacksmitiis.

Engineers

Stokers

15
8

51
4

Railwaymen .

Total— 877

25 ""

Labourers. . . .
Otiier work .
Pithead

111
301

102
261

412

.363

102

72 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

At the '\^'ellington Extension Mine 1,060 men are employed, including 16-1 Chinese
and 1 Japanese. No Chinese or Japanese are employed under ground. Formerly about
100 Chinese «ere employed in this mine below ground, but were taken out (according
to Manager Brydens statement; owing to a promise made by Mr. Dunsmuir.

As this industiy is .second to none in the Province, your Commissioners deem it of
great importance to ascertain its exact position in regard to Chinese labour, and how
far increased restriction or exclusion may affect it, and how the partie.s most interested
would regard any change in that direction.

Samuel M. Robins, Superintendent of the New Vancouver Coal Company for
eighteen years, says : The Company employs 1,3.36 men, of wliom 1,0'J3 are whites and
243 Chinese, including special hands. No Chinese are employed below ground. 91f<
white men are employed below ground and 175 above ground. Of the Chinese in
connection with the mines, there are 37 stokers, 48 banksmen. — these are under the
supervision of a responsible white man : 19 timbermen, 39 wharf men, 1 7 cutting timber,
and IS for geneial purposes ; besides these there are 57 clearing land and S farm hands
projjer, — making a total of 243. At present we have no Chinese at "less than $1.12i
per day, and the highest §1.25 per day. Miners earn from S3 to 85 per day ; lalx)urers
below ground have a daily wage of from -82.60 to 83 a day ; very few get less than 82.60
a day.

The origin of the remo-\-al of the Chinese followed a sad accident we had here in
1887 and was brought about by pressure from the white miners upon the two companies,
who siumltaneously removed them from the mines. For myself I may say with great
satisfaction, the principal reason outside the pressure was on account of the greater
safety of the mines. I certainly consider Chinese under ground who can't speak and
understand English an element of additional danger. I don't say they are not undesir-
able on other accounts, but that is a special cause of danger. They are undesirable on
other grounds ; for one reason in time of accident, they become panic-stricken and can
render no help whatever, whereas a white miner has always the reserve of courage to
meet a calamity. I am speaking now as a coal mine superintendent. I certainly
regard it in the interest of the company to have them excluded from the mines. I don't
think a single Chinaman has ever set foot below ground in any of our mines since 1887.

The Wellington mine also continued to exclude them while it worked, as far as I
know. I believe it is quite closed now. I employ Chinese above ground, financial
grounrls forcing it upon the company.

It would ha^e been posssble to carry on the mines without the aid of the Chinese
if all the mines removed the Chinese from their service. Tliat would ha\-e been possible
until th'e end of last year ; it w-ould have been possible then, but hardly jiossible now,
for the reason that we are face to face no«' witli entirely new conflitions in the coal
market, that may greatly reduce the output of British Columbia collieries, namely, the
introduction of coal oil largely in California : as a corollary to that the conditions, as
far as I can foresee them, might force upon the Company the reduction of wages of
whites employed, if the Chinese were to be removed from the surface.

Q. I suppose your own residence here has enabled you to reach a conclusion in
regard to the Chinese question as to the policy of further immigration ? — A. Yes, I ha\e
formed an opinion of my own.

Q. Will you state your opinion fully to the Commission ^ — A. There are certain
problems in connection with the thing which I need not go into at the present time, l#iit
upon the broad question of the immigration of Chinese into this province, I think it
should be entirely stopped, either by prohibition or by a prohibitive head tax.

Q. Why : upon what grounds would you say so : what are your reasons I — A.
Now, I am not speaking so much from my position as an officer of a coal mining com-
pany, as from my own views and feelings as a British Columbian. Another reason is
that manual labour — that is laljour that is not usually regarded as skilled-~is lookefl
upon as humiliating by the white population, because of the presence of the Chinese and
their engaging in manual labour here, and the young generation are more desirous than
in any other country I know of, to escape from manual employment. The younger gen-
eration here seems to be ashamed to do the work that the Chinese do.

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 73

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

(j. That cuu(Iitii>n of iiffairs you regard detrinieiital ti) the interests of tlio fouiitry
at large ? — A. Undoubtetlly it is.

Q. From your own observation, d<i you think tlie Chinese show any tendenin- at
present ti) live uji to our standard I — A. Xone whatever. There is no change whatever
in their |.)ractices as far as I have observed.

Q. If the}' would assimilate with our people do you think it would be desirable in
the interests of the country ? — A. I .should say not. Assimilation covers not onl\' the
habits of life, but would imply intermarriage with the people, which would not be desir-
able here. It would be very undesirable for any foreign nationality to be largely im-
posed upon us. The standard of living and the mode of living of the Chinese are largely
removed from that of a white worker in the same calling. A white man might live and
support a family on the wages paid a Chinaman, but certainly it would be little better
than star\ation. It would be laiinous for any country to have such a nation as the
Chinese intermarry with them.

I have ne\"er seen in the district more than two or three Chinese vvomen, and they
are the wives of merchants and not of the labouring class. «

I have no cause of complaint as to their want of obedience, diligence and thrift. I
have no means of knowing of their thrift or morality from an Englisliman's stanfl|ioint.
I understand there is a Chinese mission, but I am sorry to confess tiiat I ha\'e not paid
much attention to that, possibly because I doubt whether the Christia)i practices and
Christian theories would not baffle the intelligence of the oidinary Chinamen we find
here.

I apprehend no incon\enience will be suffered by the supply of Chinese labour being
cut off. In forming this conclusion I know there is a large surplus of Chinese labour
a\ailable at this moment. If there was a large emigration of Chinese we might suffer.
There is no danger of that unless they were called home by the Chinese Government.

Q. Do you know cif any industry here which has been called intcj existence by reason
of the presence of the Chinese! — A. No, I am not aware of any, but that might not
mean that no other industries were maintained by the presence of the Chinese ; but
looking nearer home, land cleai-ing so far as my company is concerned, would cease at
once if there were no Chinese here.

I could not always refuse to empkn' white labour even when tendei'ed at Ciiinanieu's
rate of pay. I prefer to pay white men wages upim which they can live comfortably.
I have never engaged Japanese in clearing land. When I .speak of the one I speak of
the other. If there were no a^•ailable Chinese or Japanese the land clearing must cease.
The oompanj' have cleared about seven hundred acres by Chinese labour, whilst the
leaseholders under the company have »lso cleared mostly by Chinese labour, six or seven
hundred acres moi-e. I .say mostly, because a good many have done their own clearing
or employed whites to clear, even if it cost three times what it \\i>uld cost with
Chinese.

The sale of lands have been about nil for the last four years. The lands have cost
us more than we hope to get back, but we cleared fii'st for .safety on account of fires, and
to improve the surrovuidings of Nanaimo. It is not my experience that most of the
timber lands are useless.

I am of opinion that none of the existing industries in the province would sufi'er by
forbidding of further Chinese immigi'ation. That is the way I wi.sh to put it. I do not
think there w<_)uld ever come a better time to do that than the present ; in fact, if I am
allowed to express an opinion without your giving me a (juestion to answer, the sooner
Mf)ngolian immigration is stopped the better, before it grows to unmanageable proportion.s.

I may state here that a large proportion of the miner.s here own their own homes, but
owing to the presence of Chinese which makes the childi'en adverse to manual labour,
and there being no other employment for them, the parents do not know what to do
with their children. «i

The I'esult of fanning would not at present permit of the employment of white
labour, although scientific farming might do. If white men could obtain blasting powder
at a reduced cost it would materially aid them in the clearing of land.

74 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The company leases to miners with the option of purchase, so they can do what
they please Most of the miners who liave arrived at marriageable age are married.
A great many own their own homes. Large numbers may be considered permanent
residents. That raises tlie question I have ah-eady referred to, the aversion on the part
of children of white people to manual laljour. Children are growing up here, tlieir
parents or heads of the house working in the mines, and those children are not able to
secure any employment, and it has become a serious (|uestion with parents what to do
with their children. The presence of the Chinese deters children from seeking employ-
ment because of the Chinese being employed at certain work, and as I say the parents
do not know what to do with their children, with young boys and girls who are growing
up in the communitv.

Q. How long is it since coal oil encroached upon the coal market ! — A. It began
to be felt last November. We heard about it before that, but it did not affect
us much ; but now we are beginning to feel the effect of coal oil competition. San
Francisco is our largest market. The price of domestic coal is governed largely by the
consvjmption of railway and steamship owners, but there is very little fluctuation in the
price of coal. The British Columbia coal is about one-third of the coal consumed in
San Francisco. AVe have found in years gone by that coal had come in from England
and from Australia when there was no home demand for it.

Sometimes coal has been brought here, colonial and Engli.sh coal would come in
here and been sold at a price which would hardly pay for getting it out of the ships,
but that has not occurred recently.

It is quite within the range of possibility that it will be impossible to mine and
ship coal to San Francisco. Coal oil may be used in some industries and in other
industries it cannot be used on account of danger ; and then the question comes in as to
domestic use. Coal oil can only possiljlv supersede coal for domestic use : but' the use
of coal in San Francisco may result in a large reduction in the demand for coal from
here, and the orders from San Fi'ancisco would be of such small amounts, that it would
not pay for us to keep our mines open. We are watching that very carefullv but we
cannot decide as to how far it will interfere with our mining here. It may be that the
oil people will be able* to secure new inventions, whereby oil could be more generally
used in a great many industries, but at present they have more than they can liandle
and they have to get rid of it, and therefore the market is more affected at the present
time. The competition from coal oil has increased rapidly of late, because when one
man sunk a well his neighbour had to do the .same to prevent his land being drained.
If the companies could place their oil elsewhere they would rather get SI . 25 a barrel
for their oil than 6.5 cents as they are getting to-dav because of over-production.

Q. Would that follow irrespective of whether the Chinese were here or not / — A.
It is perfectly independent.

I entirely disagree with the idea of servile labour. It might create a few large
individual fortunes, but it would be utterly detrimental to the white labour class.

Q. Would you consider the Chinese and Japanese as at present here servile labour \
— A. Largely so ; not, perhaps, speaking in a legal sense.

They are a little too servile to please me. The Chinese have ne\er put any pres-
sure on to get more than half the wages of white labour. I can't remember of a strike ;
none in our mines.

Q. On the other hand if the margin was very close it would mean a reduction in
the price of labour ; it would mean the employment of cheap labour, or there would be
no exportation of coal ? — A. You wish to get an expi-ession of my views whether it
would bring Chinese labour into the mine ? For myself and my company I say that
under no circumstances would that introduce Chinese into the mines. We would rather
suffer ruin first.

We are employing Chinese in all available departments above ground now. A
Chinaman can do pretty well as much as a white man at the work we have tiiem employ-
ed at now. In some I should sav, ves, unhesitatingly, such as stoking, and as a banks-
man they do nearly as well as white men. The true banksman, the responsible banks-
man is a white man, but lie has subordinates, and the subordinates may be Chinamen.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE 1 Mil 1(1 HA TION 75

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

There have been times when we should have been glad of five cents a ton.

Q. You told us tlie presence of the Chinese prevented white men getting employ-
ment on the farms ( — A. Tiiat ^statement was made in regard to children and in regard
to boys being employed in clearing land. *I iia\e tried young men or boys of from four-
teen to sixteen years of age. They are not strong enough to do farm work, but there
are certain things that these lads when they reach the age of si.Ktcen or seventeen might
do about tlie place, where we now employ Chinese.

Q. AVhy don't you employ them I — A. Because you will unilerstand, a lad abcjut
sixteen or seventeen, a growing lad, is not so physically able as a full grown Chinaman
for certain work.

Q. If you hadn't the Chinamen to enijiloy you would't get such work done ? — A.
We would get it done in some way, but we are obliged to employ the Chinamen who are
able-bodied, but if they were not here at all we should employ white men, although we
might have to suffer a little in pocket.

Q. Isn't it a fact of the present generation and particularly of the present day that
owing to the high standard of education the cliildren get here they are inclined to climb
more into skilled labour I- -A. That is a feeling that is largely produced by the presence
of the Chinese. Youngpeople like to rise higher, and they cannot be blamed for that,
but the shame they feel at doing manual labour as far as I can see is pr(.idueefl by the
Chinese being here, and the young people do not care to go at work which the Chinese
are generally employed in doing. * * *

I have never met one Chinaman without a pig-tail. If Chinese immigration were
prohibited, Chinese labour would gr-adually disappear and perhaps it would increase the
price. I don't think the scarcity of Chinese would be such as that their wages would
approximate to that paid for white labour. I think Chinese immigration ought to be
stopped entirely. I believe there are questions of imperial importance in i-egard to the
Japanese. We own the land on which ' Chinatown ' is built : the Chinese erected the
buildings, sucli as they are, themselves. It was considered temporary. I wanted to get
them outside of the town. I removed them. We get .8.50 or .§60 a month for the
whole of ' Chinatown.' It is unsatisfactoiy to me. They have been there sixteen or
seventeen years. They tried to buy lots in the city. They offered very good prices on
it. I refused. I refused to sell to them anj'where. As the Chinese gradually decrease
the white labour would increase. I would try and maintain a standard of wages. If
today you removed all our Chinese we would either have to reduce our wages or shut
down. I always deprecated labour being brought in to reduce wages. I set my face
against bringing the scale of wages down. We don't want to take every cent there is
in the business. I have no doubt the miners' unions would do all they could to prevent
wages coming down.

Q. Referring to the condition of the labour market in a large business like yours,
don't vou think the industrial conflitions in regard to the rate of wages should be left
to settle themselves without any interference from the Legislature in the way of re-
striction of any kind I — A. That, I presume, points to the question of the minimum
wages. Speaking as a superintendent of a company I say that a wage be paid to a man
upon which he can live respectablv 'and support a family respectably. The wages should
be go^•erned on what a family can be brought up on i-espectably. Employers and men
have to meet as far as possible each other's views. An employer may reduce wages
by small degrees now and again until you are ashamed to look a workman in the face :
uijtil the workman cannot tell where his bread is to come from for the next day. That is
the effect of the importation and employment of cheap alien labour. I may say that it
is my earnest hope that such a time may never come in this country, and in order to
prevent that, I would rather that no such labour should come in.

Q. Do you think it is proper a distinction should be made between one class and
another I — A. That has been attempted but it has been brought about by agreement.
There has been no legislation in England that I know of to prevent inmiigration.

Q. Do vou know of any country where that idea is seriously entertained — the
question of prohibition of immigration and the minimum wage i — A. I have not gone
into the question of legislation and the minimum wage. I take the general ground.

76 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

from 111 J- point of \ie\v it is more satisfactorv to the people to have sucli a thing as a
minimum wase and then employees are adequately paid.

Q. ^^ ould you prefer to deal with organized labour in preference to dealing with
unorganized labour ? — A. Ye.s, most emphati<?allv I prefer to deal with organized labour.

I have a copy of the Company's agreement with the union which I have pleasure
in handing you.

This agreement. Exliibit 25, follows : —

Memorandum of agreement entered into between the New Vancouver Coal Mining
and Land Company, Limited, and the Miners and Mine Labourers' Protective As.socia-
tion of Vancouver Island, this 24th dav of July, 1891.

1st. The Ciunjjany agrees to employ miner.s and mine labourers only who are already
members of the Miners and Mine Labouiers' Protective Association, or who, within a
reasonable period after employment, become members of the Association.

2nd. The Company agrees to dismiss no emjilovee who i.s a member of the Associa-
ti<m without reasonable cause.

3rd. The association agree that under no consideration will thev stop work by
strike vrithout exhausting all other means of conciliation available.

4th. The Associatitm agree that thev will not interfere witlrthe Company in employ-
ing or discharging employees.

5th. The Association shall comprise all men employed underground, excepting
otKcials and engine drivers, and above ground all day labourers, not officials, engine
dri\ers or mechanics.

6th. This agreement can be terminated by 30 days' notice cm either side.

For the Xew Vancouver Coal ^lining and Land Company, Limited.

Francis Deans Little says : I am General Manager of the Wellington Colliery
Company. The mines are at Extension or South Wellington, Alexandra and Union.

The Alexiindra is not working now, it ceased last December. At the time it
stopped working we did not employ Chinese underground. We employed above ground
about twenty, and ninety miners, all whites. In all, about one hundred and fifty white
men. We paid Chinese abo\'e ground for ten hours 81, and for fii'emen for twelve hours,
81.50. and dumpers, 81.50 for eight liours. We never employed Chinese underground
at Alexandra. We employed them underground at one time in all othei' mines. We
employed them in the Extension till last year. It was an experiment on Mr. Dunsmuir's
part. He appeared to think he could run as cheaply without them as with them ; not a
very good re.sidt financially. Tiie expense was increased. It cost nearly double in
track laying pushing and that class of labour generally. I have failed to find a single
white man that will do the work of two Chinamen at this class of work, and some
Chinamen will do at that work as much as white men. I do not agree with Andrew
Biyden when he says a good white pusher is equal to two Chinamen, or when he says
' It would not be advisable for the management to go back to Chinese underground.'
We ha^e worked a mine, No. 2, with all Chinese, and never a man killed in it. It ran
for eight years. The Chinese did all the work in connection with the mining, except
one overman and two firemen to examine for gas. There were about one hundred and
fifty Chinese working there and only rei|uired the three white men. We found it quite
satisfactory in every way. I do not consider the Chinese any more dangerous than
whites. I think they are a little more careful. They won't take risks. In ease of
accident they are not a bit more subject to panic. We employ here nine hundred men,
of whom one-half are Chinese and Jaijanese ; namely, about one hundred Japanese and tjie
rest Chinese. We do not employ them all. We employ the labourers ; of these 450
Japanese and Chinese, we employ 30 Japanese and 1 35 Chinese. For .section men we
u.se one white man to five or eiglit Chinamen. None of the helpers in the mines are
employed by us. They are paid by the miners. The price varies from 81.25 to 81.50,
We contract by the ton. We pay 75 cents per ton of 2,500 pounds. The miners
average from 83 to 83.50 and some as high as 85 a day. We pay mule drivers (whites)
82.50, and Chinamen 81.50. The Chinamen do not manage quite so well. The
intenti(jn was to exclude the Chinese here. It is better the way it is financially. I

ON CHINESE AXD JAPAXESa IMMIGRATION TJ

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

would not cliange. Mr. Dunsmuir wants to change. I flo not agi-ee with this new irlea
of his.

We brouglit out two hunch-ed Scotch miners, and they were no good. We have
twenty left. I do not know where they went to and I do not care. I do not think
one-third (jf them ever dug coal in their life. Very few paid their passage. They wei'e
.su{)posed to pay iJTO each for the passage, l)ut never did. !Many of them went to Seattle
at once. They never came here at all. Mr. Dunsmuir spent •51 5,000 on them. I do
not think he got 63,000 back. I paid $3 a day for a $1 day's work to some of them.
I was longing foi' the Chinamen.

The Chinese and Japanese are about alike. The Chinaman is a little stronger ; the
Japanese smarter anfl quick. The Chinese are good and faithful. I never saw one
drui-ik. Veiy few of the Chinese have their families here, only three or four of them
ha\e. I don't think they .send very much to China ; they save for a while and make a
trip home and mo.st of them come back, and when they go home they take their savings
with them. I don't think they will ever become assimilated. They are wanted in this
counti'v for a while yet to get the country ahead. There are lots of industries here that
would drop at once if they were driven out for several years yet ; I think it is nece.ssary
for them to be in the country for ten years yet ; then it would be time enough to take
stejjs. I don't see any object in keeping them out, only the labour trouble. I think
there should be no restriction whatever, and speal^ing for myself, I rlo not think the
time will ever come when there should be restriction.

Q. Then, do you think the country would be better oH' supplied with that class of
people than with white people? — A. Altogether, no.

Q. What do you mean ? — A. I mean to prepare the ccjuntry tVir labour, and the
country wants that class of labour to develop it.

Q. Why cannot white men do the labour of developing I — A. A white man won't
do it, so why not employ them as well as anybody ?

Q. Do you think there i.s no object in trying to get a permanent class of white
labourers here ? — A. I think .so. Under re.striction they will never come together with
the whites. They will be alwa^'s as they are now, labourers clearing land, and getting
things into shape to help the whites.

Q. They make g<.)od miners ? — A. Ye.s ; we never get a Chinaman in a mini> unless
we cannot get a white man, except as a helper.

We have worked a mine altogether with Chinese to our satisfaction. Thev are
<[uite competent to do that cla.ss of work.

If there is any scarcity of white men we take the Chinese, to do the same work as
white miners. There are only sixteen Chinese who do mining in the w-h(;le mine. We
have had 150 actually mining. It w-orked all right.

Q. So, if the Chinese came in in sufficient numbers it woukl be best, I suppose you
will say, to supersede the white miner? — A. It would.

(.}. What would be the object ? — A. We would pay them just the same.

Q. Do you think that would be desirable 1 — A. No.

Q. Why not? — A. I would rather have the whites than the othei-s.

Q. If they do the work as good why not let tliem do it? — A. I do not know^ it
would make much difference.

Q. You think as long as you get out the coal or the ore it would be as much in the
intere.sts of the country to get it out by common Chinese labour as by common wliite
labour ? — A. I do not see it would make much difference myself ; they spend nearly as
mucli money as the whites. As long as we pay the same money for it it makes no
diff'erence.

Q. They make good outside labourers ? — A. Yes, first class.

Q. So all the outside labour except overseeing could Vje done by Chinese ! — A. It is
done now all over.

Q. So, really, if tliere were enough of the Chine.se here in the country you could
run youi- whole mining as j'ou did No. 2 ? — A. You would have to have your machinists
and blacksmiths white men.

78 REPOHT OF KOYAL CUMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. That would be, as far as the country is concerned, as good and profitable ? — A.
Yes, just the same : the onlv diflference is in the labour part. We would oiil}' have so
much done.

Q. Are there enouuh here now '. — A. I think tliere are enough.

Q. Ha^■e you had any ditticulty in getting all you want ? — A. No, sir.

Q. Suppose no more were allowed to come in, would you have any inconvenience?
— A. Not unless I wanted to extend the work.

Q. So, although vou would not suffer anj- inconvenience if no more came into the
country, you are still in fa\our of more coming? — A. I sav, make it free to evervbodv.
Let them come and let them go : that is my view. That s the view I always held and
.see no reason to change my opinion.

I have been connected with coal mines since '64, and manager for thirteen years.
The white man can take on as helper whom he please.s.

We had plenty of Scotch miners here before ; they came here about ten years ago
and are here yet. It would take the Scotch miner six months to become a skilled miner
here. We guarantee to make their wages .S3 a day on dead wt)rk. We pay so much a
yard for deficient work. It runs all the wav from 81 to -SIO a yard, besides the tonnage,
the rate on which is equivalent to the rate on a ton of coal.

Q. Is your white labour steady I — A. Well, we have had it quite steady for quite a
while. In five hundred men you have some moving now and again. We have had it
steady for quite a while.

Q. Where do the white lalx>ui'ers go to \ — A. To Washington and Extension.

Q. Do they go fishing ? — A. Ko.

Q. Do they go mining! — A. Yes, the Yukon tuok quite a number from here.

Q. Could you afford to pay white labour and still have reasonable profit in the
business? — A. If we paid ti2..50 a day instead of 81 there would not Ije any profit left.

Q. Do you know what class of labour they employ on the American side ? — A.
Tliev work ten hours a day and they get lots of men to work that time. The mule
driver there will get .81.75 a day for ten hours ; so we are paying the Chinese here more
than they pay the white labour over there for that cla.ss of labour. That is in Washing-
ton State. I cannot tell what Washington miners get per ton. The labour only I talk
about. Different mines will have differeift tonnage. There is one instance they
pay 81.7-5 a day for nmle drivers for ten hours' work, and we ]>ay .82.50 a day ior eight
hours' work. There is one example: and the other things are about the same proportion.

Q. Does that ten hours represent the time from the surface until the miner gets
back to the surface? — A. I do not know, but that is what it is here, eight hours from
the surface and Ijack, for all classes underground, and on the top ten hours.

There is not much profit now. Down at San Francisco the oil makes a difference.
The output of our mines and the mines of Washington State does not affect the market
but little. Australian coal affects it a little ; not much. Very little coal comes from
Scotland. There is still coal coming from Wales.

Q. If the other coal mining companies in this country excluded the Chinese, do you
think it would be better all round, and that they will be enabled to continue to mine
with white labour at a profit ? — A. They are not in the market at all. They are .siniplv
sending coal to two parties under contract. It would not make any difference to them.
We have not the regulating of prices there. Washington State and others have the
regulating of that. We cannot do it.

I have never heard a single objection to working with Chinese or Japanese. I
never heard any complaints.

Q. Have men ne\er made any recjuest to you for the emjiloyment of white men
exclusively under ground I — A. Xo. sir, only the Miners' Union in Nanainio : that Ixidv
they have now.

Q. Do your miners belong to the union ? — A. I do not know, I am sure. They
might be union men and they might not.

Q. Have they ever a.sked you to employ white men only? — A. Who!

Q. Tlie Miners' Uni<m ? — A. Oh, we hear from tlieiii rei;ularly.

ox CHINESE AXI) JAI'AXESE IMMIGKATJOX 79

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. You have'no reason to doulit tliat tlu-ir (Icinands are in tlie pulilii- interest? — ■
A. They are in their own interests.

Q. If it were possible to brin.i; in a lot of whiti' lal)i)U]- to the coast — the Chinese
labour because it is cheaper — j-ou would prefer it ! — A. 1 suppose I would prefer the
cheaji labour. I do not care what labour it is so long as it is good laljour.

Q. I suiipose you would not go in for any more assisted iiniuigration I — A. No, I
ha\"e had two spells of that. I do not know which was the worst, the niggers or the
Scotch miners. We lirought sixtv-five niggers from Pittsburgh and Ohin, and tlicv were
as bad as the others.

Q. "What was the trouble with them ( — A. Too mucli money. We had to pay
their passage here and they gradually drifted away from us. I think there are some of
them here yet.

There is no law for the eight lioui' day here in coal mines. I think eight liours is quite
enougli in a mine. I never approved of ten h(jurs. I can't say if a miner witli a white
heli)er can do more than a miner with a Chinese helper. If the Chinese were not here
we would hear from the unions ; tliey do not know where to stop. I would certainly
have recourse to Chinamen if we require them. Why shouldn't I .' I fail to .see that
Chinese are forcing anybody out. The young people growing up in this country do not
want to do that class of labour ; they won't do it.

In 1898 an arrangement was made to put the Chinese out of the mines. There had
been explosions in 1887 and 1.S88 in Wellington mine and in the New Vancouver C(ial
Company's mine. Mr. Robins said if Mr. Dunsmuir would do it he would flo it. 1
dtin't think it was because it was thought the Chinese dangerous. They don't lia\e
helpers at the New Vancouver Coal Company: they work ]iartners. If , Chinese and
Japs were not available we would have to get more for our C(.ial or have to stop mining.
The margin is close.

Cumberland is incorjHirated. The miners acquii'e the land from the company on
which their houses are built ; the majority of them own their own houses. The Ja]i-
anese pay ground rent and build their own houses. It is the same with the Chinese.

John ^Matthews, local manager of the Union mine, said : I think the Chinese are
as safe as ordinary miners if they understand English ; that is the test, and they are
not permitted to ha\ e charge of a place unless they do understand English orders. They
are careful, faithful and obedient. In ordinary labouring work they are about eipial to
whites. They can't do as much as white men. In mining, about three-fifths would be
a fiur compaiison. In pushing they are about equal. They are under the charye of a
white driver of a mule. I have no preference for Canadians over a Chinaman in regard
t<i working under ground. Above ground I wcjuld as soon ha\e one as the other.

Speaking as a citizen, if there were more whites to take their place it might be
better. It would not affect us much if the Chinese wei'e shut out. It might indirectly
affect us through the miners. It would be sure to raise the price of wages. Whenever
a white man comes along we put a Chinaman out and put a white man in. I prefer
wliite men because they do more work. Socially I prefer my own countrymen. The
Chinese are absolutely necessary for present work. The cost of production would be
greater without Chinese, but falling off in production here would not affect the price in
San Francisco. It would compel us to reduce the white man's wages.

I ha\e not the slightest doubt if left to their own choice the white miners would
retain tha Chinese as helpers. It enables them to work easier and thev can make more
money. I think their presence here lias a tendency to keep the white man's wages high.
I can explain that ; The coal has to be produced at a certain price ; we can only get a
certain [u-ice in the market and we have to produce to compete witli others. If "we can
get a certain amount of work done by the Chinese at a cheap rate, working in the place
of white helpers at a high rate, it enables us to jjay the white miners more. I do not
think there can be any doubt about that. At the same time, it lessens the number of
white men employed. If a number of white men came here to-morrow we could gi\e
them work insirle of two weeks. They could get work without turning out Chinamen.
We have got plenty of work for all. As to the Chinese, I think there are enough here
for luv puri>iises. liut 1 want white miners.

80 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

The average Chinaman can be depended upon in time of danger. It' a white man
goes into any place in the pit the Chinaman will follow him anywhere, even to danger.

Bu.siness men are opposed to Chinese. If all the industries of the country were
operated l)v white labour there would be more demand all round for mechanics. I think
opiinion is di\ided on the question among all classes. I don't doubt the general opinion
i.s thev would rather do without them. I do not think restriction would have any dis-
astrou.s eifect.

Andrew Brvdon, manager of the Dun.smuir Extension Mine, says : We have eight
hundred white men below^ ground and one hundred and ten Chinese in and about the
mines. The miners work by contract at 80 cents per ton of 2,3.52 pounds. Our mini-
mum wage in case the tonnage does not pay is, for miners, §3 a day. If one man can
make §4 a dav in the place, and the other can only make S2.50, it is the man's fault,
and not the place.

We pay pushers and drivers $2.-50 a day. About thirty timbermen from 82.75 to
$3 a day : twelve firemen, .SS.SO a day : and twelve track-layers 83 a day. Some of the
miners make sS a day and others 62.50. It depends on the place they are working and
on the men. An average wage of miners is .84 a day. The men never worked more
than eight hours a dav undei'ground ; the miners actuallv are at work se\en liours.
Board is -820 per month.

About twelve months ago we employed about one hundred Chinese below grouni.l.
The reason of their removal was because Mr. Dunsmuir promised to put them away.
They were paid underground $1.25 (for eight hours). We pay the surface Chinamen
•81.50 for ten hours. There aieonly three now below ground, one in each shift, changing
the rope from the empty to the loaded truck. The three are paid §1.25 each. The
Chinese above ground dump coal. That don't i-equire much strength. Youths could do
it, that is if over 16, and stout. I prefer whites to Chinese ; other things being equal I
would prefer to emplov them. About one-half of them understand English. I dont
think they add an element of danger any more than whites that don't understand
English, that is the element of danger. There is no difficultv in getting the number of
Chinese we require. If no more Chinese came in it would not aftect us. There are
sufBcient here now for any purpose that we require. I do not care to express an opinion
upon further restriction, further than I have gone. I don't know- w-hat became of the
hundred that were underground in the mines : they are gone. Eight or nine months
ago w-e were scarce of white labour to replace the hundred Chinamen who were put out.

We imported two hundred miners from the old country. Very few of them paid
back the expenses of bringing them out. Most of them are in Washington ; some are
at Crow's Nest. The work here was different and they did not like it. It takes a man
four or five years to become a skilled labourer. It did not inconvenience us. Wages
were pretty good in the old country at that time, about the same as they are here.
They claimed they were making 83 a day before thev left the old country ; I do not
suppose they w-ere. They were an average good lot of miners and after two or three
months' work here would have been efficient for our work. We gradually got other
men from all over the world. There are good miners in all countries and in some there
is a superabunfiance. When I was in Australia there were lots of miners that could
not get work. It would not be advisable for the management to go back to Chinese
under ground, if possible to get sufficient white mmers. We employ Chinese as firemen,
firing the boilers, — eight altogether. I can't say how many whites it would rtike to do
the work of the fifty Chinese under me. It would take about the same number of
whites. We would lose §50 a day in employing whites instead of Chinese. I don't
know whether this would be a serioys matter or not. Mr. Dunsmuir made some
arrangement with the miners some months ago and he has carried it out. The Chinese
that are there are giving satisfaction. An Englishman or a Scotchman would not take
the place of the Chinese : miners would not. We ha^e not tried to fill their places.

They don't employ Chinese in the mines at all in Australia. Our demand for white
labour arose because we dismissed the Chinese. White labour is not always easily
obtainable.

ox CHINEtiE AXD JAPANESE lilMIGRA TION 81

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Kilpatrick supplies us with timber. He employs Chinese for that purpose. We
have never tried to replace Cliiiiese with white labour. A white man can't live here on
Chinese wages. If Chinese were scarce I would till their places by Japanese. I see no
difference between them.

miners' views.

William J. ilcAllan, a miner who had worked in the Old Country, New Zealand,
Australia and British Columbia, and who was appointed by the inspector of mines to act
as arbitrator which involved an inquiry as to the danger of employing Chinese labour in
the mines, says : I am opposed to the further immigration of Chinese. I object to them
because they can never become a part of the nation. We should not admit any people
to our shore with whom we cannot intermarry and w-ho will not become a part of the
nation. From the commercial standpoint they are a serious obstacle to successful busi-
ness being carried on. They don't spend much of their wages in town. Any business
requires traders, and if you have people who send their money out of the country you
cannot build up the countiy. The industries of the country should not be operated" by
Chinese. I think such resources should be reserved for Europeans to operate. These
riches might better be left in the ground. It tends to two classes, the rich and the
coolie labour. I don't think we should have a servile class. It must have a weakening
effect. It undermines the nation. The backbone of any nation is its toiling people. I
am opposed to further immigration. This applies equally to Japanese.

I think the action taken in the colonies of Australia and New Zealand entirely
does away with the argument that you require Chinese labour. No cheap labour is em-
ployed in Australia in the mines or on the surface. I never saw a native or Chinese
employed in a mine in Australia or New Zealand. White men cannot compete with
Chinese. I have no objection to Chinese as a working man if he would live and work
like a white man. Chinese keep boys out of emploj'ment.

The Chinese wear overalls and the regulation miners' boots and hats when they are
working outside the mine.

Eight years ago we had no difficulty in making ten or fifteen shillings a day in
Australia or New Zealand ; since then they have fixed a minimum wage. In Scotland
about live years ago wages were from five shillings to eight shillings a day, eight hours
shift. Cost of living in Australia and New Zealand is about .~?18 to §20 a month.

John Calligan says : I have resided in Nanaimo and Wellington 24 years. I am
not working as a miner now. I am attending the pumji. I have worked in mines with
Chinese at Wellington. The Chinese were paid ■§1.25 a day. White men in general paid
them a little more. The company would not allow them to pay more than the •* 1.2.5 a
day. That was the standard price. The Chinese acted as helpers to the miners. The
company paid .82. .50 per day to white men for loading coal and helping. I have objec-
tions to working with Chinese underground because they nearly killed me, and because
they are stupid and ignorant. They don't understand where there is danger. I am
opposed to Chinese coming into the country. They helji to reduce the wages of the white
man. I should say, don't let Japs or Chinese come in.

William Woodman, of Nanaimo, an engine dri\er, says : I have charge of a
stationary engine at the mine above grouiifl. The Chinese don't compete with us. I
oljject to Chinese immigration. First, because they are effective for capitalists to oppress
the labour element in general ; he is willing to work for half the pay of a white man.
Secondly, I regard them as tending to impoverish the country, as two-thirds of their
earnings go to enrich their own nation and impoverish this. Thirdly, in the sphere of
domestic service there is a serious objection. I regard domestic sei-vice as a large sphere
where women may earn an honest livehhocxl and learn to fit themselves for more
important duties in life. I judge the greatest objection is from unskilled labour in the
past. That same experience will be the lot of skilled labour in general. Fourthly, I
regard the presence of Asiatics in large numbers as a menace to health. They are veiy
unsanitary by allowing accumulations of filth all around them. I cannot urge any
serious objection as to their personal cleanliness. Fifthly, another serious objection is
.54—6

82 BHPOh'T OF nOYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

the injustice that a Britisli born subject lias to stand to one side and Asiatics be
jii-eferred to him. I don't think they e\er «ill assimilate with our people, and it is not
desirable. I mean to say that when an appeal is made to loyalty in such case, it is
j)utting loyalty to a needless and dangerous strain. A British race ought not to be
asked to surrender their rights in order that favouritism may be given to an alien race.
I believe in their elevation, but not at the expense of our people. I think we are
competent to paddle our own canoe without the aid of the Asiatic.

I would simply answer that question by the general application of the principles
recognized by the present Dominion Govermnent wherever money is spent, that is bj'
the enactment of the law for a fair wage for its w-ork ; then there will be no discriminat-
ing against the Japanese or any one else. In keeping the Japanese and Chinese out of
the country it would be a thousand times more effective than all the other legislation in
the past or future. I would simply have the law that where Government money is
spent that no Ciiinese or Japanese be employed, and the most eSective way of getting
at that is by fixing a minimum wage, and no contractor will employ a Chinese or
Japanese where there is the minimum wage paid to white labour. A law such as I
have mentioned would prevent the employment of cheaper labour or degradation of it.

To protect the weakly white man against Chinese getting into competition with
them, I would have a Board of Arbitration as they ha^•e it in Xew Zealand. If a man
is incapable of doing cert^iin woi'k, then the Board will decide he should receive less.

I would apply the minimum rate of wages to all callings, even to domestic service.
It would apply also to skilled labour. It might result in increasing the wages for
domestics.

It may be said to be very largely a wage question. It is a labour question. They
w-ant to do the white man's work for half the white man's pay. It is more than a
labour question. It is serious from a sanitary point of view and it has also a strong
tendency to permit the accumulation of wealth by the capitalist.

Labour in Great Britain is better paid because of the employe)' and employees
getting close together and each studying the interests of the other, and each respecting
the other.

I learned my trade in England. I was ap]>renticed. Quite a few girls here are in
domestic service. The miners ha\e families as a rule. White girls get from §15 to
620 a month. There are hundreds in the Old Country who would be glad to come. I
wonder what the boys are going to do. If no Chinese were employed it would give
place to boys. It would be an important factor in that direction. I regard it as a
national weakness to bring about conditions which compel our youth to emigrate. I
think the exclusion of Asiatic labour would benefit u.s all around. I regard the
Japanese question as more acute than the Chinese question. I don't deny they are
superior to the Chinese.

John Knowles Hickman, who is a loconioti\-e dri\er in connection with the mines.
and has resided in Nanaimo twelve years, says : The Chinese compete with me to a
certain extent. The way I would point it out is this : That the rising generation — that
is our young people — have not got the chance of learning my business, for the simple
reason that the helpers we have, the firemen and brakesmen, are Chinamen ; therefore
the white boy has no chance to come and learn the business of locomoti\e driving.
Therefore, I say, the Chinaman is injurious to the white man and his family.

We have had Chinese for firemen and brakesman for twelve years to my knowledge,
in the new Vancouver Coal Company. There are five locomotive drivers. We have one
fireman to each locomoti^^e. I am opposed to the Chinese immigrants. They are an
undesirable race of people. They cannot be depended upon in case of accident or emer-
gency. I have found this so. Their sanitary condition is not what it should be. It
ought to be righted, but it is not ; overcrowding of Chinese and Japanese, the filthy state
of " Chinatown " as I have seen it, and bad smells, are a menace to health. I don't think
they ever will assimilate. They are still a distinct race. I know they fill the following
callings, namely ; firemen, brakesmen, domestic service, general labourer, laundrymen,
market gardeners, helpers to plasterers, etc. They are a detriment to white wage earn-
ers, I learned my trade in England by apprenticeship. We have to teach the Chinese

ox CHIXESE AXD JAPAXESE IMMK! IIATIOX 83

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

There are no locomotive engineers, Chinamen ; they are at the top of the tree when they
get to be brakesmen and firemen. The boys are around all the time wanting these posi-
tions. Thev would do the same work for $i or .*3 a week and team driving at the same
time : Chinese would not be so profitable as white boys to learn the trade. 1 think
boys would learn and be a benefit to the Company. I think there are too many Chinese
here now. I believe in absolute prohibition of Chinese and Japanese. I am an alder-
man. The corporation does not employ Chinese on corporation work.

John C. McGregor, Secretary of the Trades and Labour Council, of Nanaimo, pre-
sented certain resolutions of the I\Iiners' Union which shortly and fully set forth the views
of the miners and mine labourers of Nanaimo, and probably fairly represent the views
of this important class in the whole province : —

The following resolution was unanimously discussed and carried at the Miners'
meeting held on January the 26th inst.

That as a Miners' Union we implore the Commissioners to impress upon the Dom-
inion autliorities the great necessity there is for i-estricting or preventing the importa-
tion of the above class of labourers into our province. That as miners we know by hard
experience that these workmen are very undesirable in and about our mines, because of
their being an ignorant and therefore a dangerous class of workmen.

In 1887 a serious accident occurred in Nanaimo resulting in the loss of over one
iuindred lives, and the following year at Wellington, with almost a similar result, and
there were good reasons for supposing that these serious accidents were due to a consid-
erable extent to the above class of workmen.

So much so, that the operators of these mines voluntai'ily agreed to dispose entirely
of them from their mines and as a matter of fact no such accident has occurred since
thev were put out of these mines.

The fact of this has been made so clear to the members of our provincial legislature
that thev have exercised their powers to the utmost extent to safeguai'd the lives of
white miners both in coal and metal mines by enacting laws prohibiting their employ-
ment underground ; such legislation has however been declared ultra vires of the local
House and we are now depending upon the disposition of the mine operators to keep
them out, a state of things we consider should not be allowed to continue, considering the
dangerous nature of underground work. We therefore present these facts and deposi-
tions to vou in the hope that the Dominion authorities will as soon as possible give us
greater security as miners.

On behalf of the above association.

WILLIAM STOCKER, President.
JAS. BRADLEY, Vice-President.
RALPH SMITH, M.P., Secretary.
NEIL McCUISH, Assistant Secretary.
AVM. SMITH, Treasurer.

This witness further said : I think thev are a detriment to tlie country. They
tend to keeji out labourers. Their habits are uncleanly. They cannot be counted upon
as reliable men in case of trouble. I draw no distinction between the Chinese and
Japanese. I think the country would be far more prosperous without them.

David Mofl'at says : I reside in Nanaimo. Have been a miner for 45 years.
Mined in Scotland from the time I was eight years old till I was thirty. Came to the
United States and mined in Pennsylvania, Illinois, Wvoming, Washington and Utah.
Have been here eighteen years. The Cliinese should not be employed in the mines
liecause they are inimical to the safety of white men's lives and their own. I have
proved it by what I have seen underground with them ; because they have no idea of
the precautions that should be taken underground Shortly after we had an explosion
in the Wellington ^Nline, in the old slope, at 9 a.m — Messrs. Brydon and Scott asked me
to take charge of the mine — BIr. Brydon was superintendent and Scott was foreman of
No. 4 shaft and the slope. Immediately after going to the slope I examined the place
where the men were buried and found still a large quantity of gas. I took a Chinaman
with me and put a fence up three hundred yards from where the gas was : at both sides
54— 6A

84 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

where there was access or egress to that place. I wrote in English that there was no
road that way and had the Chinamen write in Chinese the same. Two days after that
I was in the mine, at No. 10 level, east, and to my horror I met two Chinamen coming
through this road in close proximity to this gas. I asked what they were doing there.
They said " no sabbee." I took the naked lamps from them and took them back to this
fence, asked them to read the writing on it, and they said they did not pay any atten-
tion to the writing. On another occasion I found them tacking the curtain up ; the
curtains keep the air to the bad places. They left these curtains open. I asked w-hy
they did it and the}- answered " no sabbee." Onanother occasion two of the pushers that
set fire to a curtain ran off and left it. They had set fire with their lamps. When I
found something was wrong in the air I went and found the curtain still burning. By
that time it had caught the brattice (that is lumber put in to conduct the air). I put
the fire out and went to hunt the Chinamen, but they had fled. Thej' wanted to get
up the shaft. I got a curtain and went back and fixed it up.

On another occasion two of the Chinese pushers let the car run away and, witliout
warning, let it come down a heading and break a white boy's leg.

Tlie explosion was twelve years past. I worked for the company eight j^ears.
Chinamen were in the mine all that time. Two years before they caused an explosion.
In a previous explosion nine men were killed. After that there were many cases of
carelessness. I was o^"erman in charge of the whole mine. We have to search in every
part of the mine for gas. The Chinese are not allowed to do that. They are not con-
sidered competent for that, nor to go in a mine after an explosion, even with a safety
lamp. If there is a place where there is gas and you tell a white man he'll not go, but
the Chinaman says " no sabbee " and he'll go there.

Q. Do you know from your own knowledge whether superintendents where Chinese
have been employed regard the Chinese as dangerous I — A. They regard them as
dangerous. They will not go into a place in the mine if it is a Chinaman that has
examined it.

Q. How do you know f — A. I have proven it.

Q. In what way ? — A. When I would ask Mr. Brydon to go into a place he would
say : ' Have you been in there V If I said j'es, he would go in, but if I said a China-
man had been in, lie would not go in He would sav : ' It is not fit for anyone to go in
unless you have examined it yourself.' ....

If safety lamps are furnished and kept closed there would be no danger from the
lamp alone. I have locked the lamp and given it to a Chinaman and going on shortly
afterwards I have found it opened. I would like to see a lamp a Chinaman could not
open. Where safety lamps have to be used the employer supplies them. When the
mine is supposed to be free from gas, the naked lamp may be used.

It is lack of intelligence as well as stubbornness. The statute says that Chinese
shall not be put in any position of trust in the coal mines (R.S.B.C., 1897, chap. 138,
sec. 82, Rule 34).

I have not worked with a Chinaman since the Wellington explosion, January 2-1,
1888, when 31 white men and 45 Chinamen were killed. There is the same danger now
as there was then. We have had no serious accident since the Chinamen were put out
of the mines here and at Wellington. When I had charge we had two Chinamen to
one white man. We paid a white man twice as much as a Chinaman. By having the
Chinaman it kept the white man from asking more wages. Old men could work above
ground if the places were not monopolized b\' Chinamen. There was a finding of a jury
that the Chinese were the cause of the accident, and at No. 5 explosion the accident
was directly traced to Chinamen.

James Cartwright, 27 years a miner, came from Lancashire, England, eight years
at Nanaimo, always worked in coal mines, says : I speak of the danger of Chinese
underground (refers t(j the above statute). I will not work with a Chinaman in the
mine because I would consider it dangerous to my life. I am opposed to Chinese
because they are not up to our standard of life. It costs them one-sixth of what it doea
a white man. I have seen sixteen or seventeen Chinese where one family would dwell ;
that is, so niany Chinamen would pay in rent what one white man would have to pay to

ox CHIKESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 85

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

keep his family. I know the presence of Chinese keeps out white ininiiyi-ants. The
wealth i)f every country is in its working people. The Scotchmen brought out here
would not work with Chinese. I don't want any country to stop me from going to that
country if I li\e up to the standard of that country and obey it.s laws. All my objec-
tions to Chinese apply to Jajianese. I think they compete worse than the Chinese. I
want a bai-rier that will keep the miner in the position he occupies to-day, or better it.
^^'hites from the east would want a standard wage.

Miners' wages in Lancashire from 1893 were ten shillings a day. Board at that
time, Vis. 6d. a week. I average from S3. 50 to $-1.25 here by contract. If we did not
average §3 a day we would quit. Average cost of board and lodging here, $'20 to $23
a month. I would have wages regulated by the Legislature. I would have a minimum
wage.

In every country there is cheap labour amongst its own people, but if a man can-
not have a living wage and they bring Chinese in to cfimpete against him — if that is
necessary for the capitalist — it is better for the country to close the works down. It is
a wage (piestion, and more important than that, it is a question of afibrding safety to
human life. If they were educated up to our standard they will want the same wage
as we do and live as we do and take their share of the responsibility of citizenship as
we have to do. If we had the minimum wage and there was an enactment providing
that that would be the lowest wage, there w-ovdd be very little competition from the
Chinese. There would be no working for half the wage of a white man then, because
the companies would not pay Chinamen what thej' would pay a white man. We would
not need to drive them out ; they would go out.

There are quite a number out of work in Nanaimo. Quite a few miners own their
own homes.

If the Chinese demand it and get the same wages that we do and lived up to our
standard, I do not know that I would have the right to object then. I am a member
of the union. If there was not enough work for the men under the minimum wage law,
they would work in turns or woi-k fewer hours.

John Hough, a miner from Lancashire, came to British Columbia in 1884, .says: I
worked at Wellington from 1884 to 1888. I speak from personal experience. I was
fire boss at that time — the man who examines to see if everything is safe. I have caught
them (Chinamen) even with fires along the road to warm the oil. I stopped them. I
do not see them with fires any more. I was fire boss four years. As a result of that
four years" experience I say they (the Chinese) don't report a danger. They were put
out in 1888 on account of their being considered an element of danger. As long as they
were there they were dangerous. After No. 5 explosion a committee, of which I was a
member, was appointed by the miners. The report was that they were an element of
danger. Befcjre a mass meeting the two companies agreed to do away with the Chinese
— ten pel- cent every three months till thev got all white.s. The miners would not accept
this, but passed a resolution to do away with them at once, and the two companies at
Wellington and Nanaimo did not employ them in the mines after that. There has been
no accident in these mines since 1888. In 1884 there was an explosion at No. 3, South
AVellington ; 23 killed. The Chinese were not responsible for that.

Edward L. Terry, secretary of the Alexandra Miners' Union, Nanaimo, 205
members, presented the following resolution as expressing their views on this question : —

EXHIBIT 24.

SPECIAL MEETIXfi, ALEXAXDliA .MINE, SOUTH WELLIXHTON.

Friday, February 22, 1901, 4.30 p.m.

Meeting called in order to hear letter I'ead from F. J. Deane, secretary of Royal
Commission to inquire into Chinese and Japanese Immigration to British Columbia, and
to discuss the subject and decide upon a reply to the secretary's letter. President calls
meeting to order. Secretary reads the letter.

Correspondence received and open for discussion.

86 KEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Resolved tliat the secretary be instructed to reply as follows : —
That we, the luenibers of the Miners' Protective Union, as a budv of British
subjects, do, after due reflection and consideration ujion the subject of Chinese and
Japanese immigration into British Columbia, hereby declare and make known our
opinions and convictions, as follows : —

1. That, whereas the immigrants from China and Japan, employed in the coal
mines of this province, represent the lowest class of the people of those nations, we
submit that the employment of those immigrants in the coal mines of this province
constitutes a grave menace to the safety of the mining community of this province.

2. With regard to the fatal explosion at Cumberland, which took place on February
15th, 1901, we believe that better precautions would have been adopted by the manage-
ment if the men employed in the mine had been all white men, and we believe that the
explosion would not have occurred had no Mongolians been working in the mine.

3. We believe that the employment of Chinese and Japanese immigrants in the
various industries of this province is inimical to the prosperity of the province, and that
it is instrumental in and conduci\ e to the lowering of the white men's wages.

i. We believe that Mongolians absorb, to a great extent, the revenues of this pro\"-
ince.

5. We believe that the presence of M(jngolians in this province is a great factoi' in
keeping white men of all classes from settling in this province, and we believe it is also
the cause of many white men leaving the province.

6. That whereas the Monogolian standard of living is far inferior to that of the
white man, we believe that the white man can never assimilate with or compete with
the Mongolians.

7. That whereas the habits and general character of Mongolians make them destest-
able to all white men throughout this province, we believe that the presence of Chinese
and Japanese immigrants in this province constitutes a graxe menace to the public
jjeace.

8. We believe that unless rapid action is taken with a view to expelling them from
this province the white man will leave this province in possession of Chinese ami
Japanese immigrants.

Letter produced and read from Mr. Mclnnes re petition received and filed.
Meeting adjourned — no other business transacted.

EDWARD L. TERRY,

Secretarv, M.P.U.

The witness further said : I think they are a menace to health. The two first
cases of bubonic plague were discovered at San Francisco among Chinese residents. I
was there at the time. I believe thev are a menace to the peace, because at Steveston
on the Eraser river the military had to be called in to keep the peace. I believe they are
a drag on the prosperity of the province, because they send money to China and import
provisions from China.

I think they are a danger to life in the mine. On November 9 last two men were
incapacitated for life by being run into in a slope of the Alexandra Mine. A Chinaman
was employed as signal man on that occasion, and it was owing to his signal, that the
cars run into the slope when they ought not to have been run there. I saw the signal
man. I don't consider them safe underground. The employment of Chinese signal men
is contrary to law.

Two or three of my acquaintances came out with the intention of taking farms in
the country, and as soon as they found Chinese here they went off. They did not like
Chinese. They preferred to quit British Columbia because of the Chinese. E\erybody
here, almost to a man, is against them. They are a menace to the community in every
shape and form. Very many men are not in the country, have gone out because of the
Chinese.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 87

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

1'liere are a gii(jil iiiaiiy people afraid to come up and make complaints, especially in
the mining conniiunity. The presence of the Chinese here is a great grievance ; there
is no doubt about that. I think before you get out of the province you will have enough
men to satisfy vou that the Chinese are a menace and a danger in the community. The
strongest argument in favour of that is revolution. If people are not liked, trouble is
certain to take place somewhere, and the military are called out, or the police, and then
the government will come to the conclusion that something has got to be done. If these
people, the Chinese and Japanese, are allowed to come here any further, I am afraid it
will lead to trouble before the government act. I would be in favour of it myself rather
than be diiven out of my country. I should be in favour of revolution if the govern-
ment did not do what was necessary under the circumstances. Most of the men here
are British subjects, but we have got a good many Americans here. I think the
majority of them are naturalized British subjects or Canadians. I have only been here
nine months just now ; was here two years ago, and went from there to California.
Prior to that I was in South Africa and fought in the Matabele campaign for the British
Empire.

William 8tocker, says : I am a coal miner. I ha\e worked in Utah and Colorado
at coal mining. There are no Chinese mining there. I am president of the Jliners' and
Mine Labourers' Protective Association, representing 900 men. But for Chinese compe-
tition we would have got the ten per cent advance that we asked for recently. The
strong competition of other companies employing Chinese prevented us getting that
advance. I never worked where Chinese were employed. I would not take the risk.
I belie%e that where Chinamen are in numbers, white men are afraid to come. By
employing all white labour it would most assuredly increase the cost of production a little.
My wages average about S4 a day. White men are generally contented in doing an
average day's work. I am an American citizen. I would not advise my countrj-men
to immigrate this country or this island, under existing conditions. I am certainly
in favour of restricting any further inunigration of Chinese. Americans who are work-
ing here for three years and doing fairly well become naturalized. I have a great desire
to become naturalized myself, and live permanently here, but I do not want to become
naturalized until I know what competition we ha\e to expect in the near future. If
I were forced to go down into a mine where Chinese were working, or if a Chinese
helper were forced on me here, as they are in some mines, I would have to quit and leave
the country then. I intend to live here, if I can live without being brought into unjust
competition with either the Chinese or Japanese. From what I have seen of them, and
I have been on a number of occasions in ' Chinatown ' here, they are penned up, to my
way of thinking, in such a way that they cannot but be a menace t(j the whole com-
munity. You will find seven or eight and sometimes more, where three white men in
the same space would feel that they were overcrowded. In fact one white man would
considei' he hafl hardly enough space in the room to dress properly. The Chinese live in
small wooden shacks, barely high enough to get into, anrl very ill smelling in many cases.
■So many in such a small room cannot be good for health. I have been in some shacks
where the Chinese live and the air was so foul, so ill-smelling to me, being accustomed
to live in clean, well-regulated rooms, that I had to go out at once to get a breath of
fresh air. In some of these shacks 1 could not stand up. The presence of the Chinese
has a very injurious effect upon the white labouring man here, \vho would be to-day in
a much better position if the}' were not here. The white labouring man would be able
to make more money and would be able to spend more in the purchase of supplies. I
would be better off if the Chinamen were n(jt here. I consider the more money I am
able to made the better member of the community I will be, and would be able to do
better by my family in the way of giving my little girl education and iu aflbrding my
wife more luxuries — all-round living better anrl spending more in the community, yet
still sa\ing and making a little home for myself and settling down as a good citizen of
the country. The presence of the Chinese here has a tenflency to bring other miners
and myself down, so that we are not able to enjoy the privileges that white people should
enjoy — that all white people should enjoy.

88 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902
UNION MINES.

Richard Heniy Hod.son, miner, say.s : I have worked here ten year.s. I have a
Chinaman helper. I pay him i?l .50 a day. I earn about $4 a day. About two years
ago wlien Chinese were not allowed in the mines on account of the law, I had a white
lielper for a few months at Jji . '25 a day. I made about the same wages so that it did
not make any difference with me. I worked part of the time without a helper and made
from $3 . 50 to $i a day. I did not make as much there because I did not get all the
boxes I wanted. If I had I think I would have averaged $4. What I say is what the
rest would say. I don't know any miner who prefers the Chinese to the white man. I
would not rather employ Chinamen and take §4 than employ white men and take less.
I would prefer to employ the white man if all the others did it. In my opinion the
white man is a far better helper. They know what to do and can do it ; they can
change off. If Chinamen were not in the mine the output would be greater per man.
I would be willing to have my wages reduced rather than employ Chinese. I know of
my own knowledge the feeling of the men is against the Chinese. I have heard them
expre.ss the view that they are not a flesirable race. If you get the manager willing to
put them out I think the men would meet him half way. A person who cannot speak
English is more dangerous in a mine than one who can speak English. I think some-
thing should be done. I think the time has arrived. I think the Japs are the worst
element of the two.

If the company were willing to put the Chinese out the men would be willing.
That is my honest opinion ; but to take out the Chinamen at $1 .50 a day you would
have to replace him with a white man at $.3 a day. You would have to raise the price
of coal. You would have to have a raise in the price paid for mining or in the price of
deficient work in order to meet that. I think the output of the mine would be about
as much with fewer miners.

OOAL OIL.

Bearing upon the question of the cost of oil as compared with the cost of coal a.s
fuel, the following letter received bj' the Commission from R. P. Rithet of San Francisco
and Victoria, B.C., may be of interest : —

San Franclsco, October 11, 1901.
Mr. D. J. MuNX,

New Westmin.ster, B.C.

Your letter of the 7tli inst. reached me this morning. I will be \'ery glad to give
j-ou any information I can in regard to the cost of oil as compared with the cost of coal
as fuel. The price we pay for oil at present is 72i cents per barrel.

According to our tests four barrels of oil are equal to a ton of coal, that is the best
Australian coal or British Columbia coal. The price of this quality of coal to-day is
about $6 . 50 to $7. Our fuel therefore on this basis costs us the equivalent of $2 . 90
per ton of coal for fuel.

In the case of British Columbia you will understand of course that the cost of oil
would probably be $1 . 25 per barrel, while the cost of coal is probably only $3 per ton,
so that the cost of oil fuel in British Columbia would be equal to S5 per ton of coal if
the oil bad to be imported, while tlie actual cost of British Columbia coal at the mine or
say within a short distance from the mine in British Columbia should not exceed ^3 . 50
or $4 per ton.

I think this covers the points you asked. With kind i-egards.

R. R RITHET.

ox CHIXESE AXD JAPAXt'SE IMMIGRATIOX 89

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

SUMMAHV.

Chinese labour is not employed in the Crow's Nest Pass coal mines, nor is it
eniiilt)ve(l in the Vancouver coal mine below ground, and lias iKjt been for many years.
After the explosion at the Wellington mines in 1887 the New Vancouver Coal Ccjmpany
aiifl the Wellington Coal Company, at the urgent solicitation of the miners, ;igrced not
to employ Chinese underground (they never had employed Japanese underground). The
reason for their exclusion was the alleged increased danger to the miners.

Both Chinese and Japanese are, however, employed underground at the Dun.smuir
mines at Union, and on the surface at all the principal coal mines on Vancouver Island.

Name of Mine.

Whites.

Chinese.

Japanese.

Total.

New Vancouver Coal Company

Dunsmuir Union Mines

Dunsmuir Kvtension iline

1,161
412

S95

2,468

175 above giomd

363 above and below ground .
164 mostly above ground ....

702

1,336

102

877
1,060

103

3,273

Mr. Samuel Robins, for eighteen years the general superintendent of the New Van-
couver Coal Company, that produced 600,000 tons out of a total production from
the Vancouver Island mines t)f nearly 1,400,000 tons, favours exclusion at once.

Mr. Francis Little, the general manager C)f the Wellington Collieiy Company, thinks
there should be no restriction whatever.

Mr. Andrew Brvdon, manager of the Dunsmuir Extension mines under Mr. Little,
says : There is no difficulty in getting the number of Chinese we require. If no more
Chinese came in it would not affect us. There are sufficient here now for any purpose
we require. I do not care to express an opinion upon further restriction, further than
I have gone.

Mr. .lohn Matthews, local manager of the Union mines, under Mr. Little, says :
Speaking as a citizen, if there were more whites to take their place it might be better.
It would not affect us much if the Chinese were shut out. It might indirectly affect u.s
through the miners. It would be sure to raise the price of wages. I think there are
enough here at present for my purposes. I do not think restriction would have any
disastrous effect.

The Commission were not favoured with the views of Mr. Dunsmuii', although
requested. In an official utterance, dated October 9, 1900, as premier of the pro\ince,
he favours ' an increase of the per capita tax in such measure as to surely limit the
numljer of immigrants, and bv enactment of legislation similar to the " Natal Act," to
regulate their employment while in the country.'

It should be noted in this connection that the management favourable to exclusion
are the largest exporters and have to compete in the foreign market. This appears from
tlie following statement : — Of the total output of •579,3-51 t«ns of the New Vancouver
Coal Company for the year 1900, 4"28,578 tons were exported to the L^nited States,
11,888 tons to other countrie.s, and only .5-5,802 tons sold for consumption in Canada,
the balance being used at the mines.

In the Dunsmuir Mines, of a total output of 804.021 tons 389,049 tons were ex-
ported to the United States, 76,708 tons to other countries, and 221,064 tons sold for
consumption in Canada, the balance being used by the company, made into coke or on
hand. The result is that of the output of the Vancouver coal mines over*7.5 per cent
is exported, and of the Dunsmuir Mines about 58 per cent. The point to be observed
here is that the management favourable to the exclusion of Chinese relies almost entirely
upon the foreign market for the .sale of its product. It may be here stated that Chinese
are nowhere employed in or about the coal mines of Washington State which enter into
competition with the British Columbia coal mines.

90 KEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The recent discoveiy of coal oil in California introduced a factor which has to be
taken into account in its bearing upon the output of coal in British Columbia.

By an Act of the Local Legislature their employment in underground coal workings
was prohibited, but the Act in that respect was declared to be u/fra firt's of the Pro-
vincial Legislature. (See the Collier}- Company of British Columbia vs. Brvdon. Appeal
Cases 1899, page 580.)

The weight of evidence points to the conclusion that their employment under-
ground is an additional element of danger to miners. Their employment on the surface
and in the mines to that extent excludes white labour and distinctly promotes idlenes.s
among the youth and young men of the villages and towns adjacent to the mines.

The present supply of Chinese labour is sufficient to meet the demand for the pre-
sent and for years to come.

The evidence of those principally concerned justifies the conclusion tliat further
restriction, or even exclu.sion, of Chinese labour will not cause any appreciable incon-
venience or loss to this industry.

CHAPTER X.— PLACER MINING.

The total production of the placer gold fields for all years up to and including 1900
amounts to over sixty-two and a hah' million dollars ; the largest yield, nearly four
millions, was for the year 186.3. In 1900 the yield amounted to 81,278,000, of which
the Cariboo Di.strict contributed §684,000. and AtUn Lake Division 8406,000. The
principal placer mines now being worked are in these two districts.

Atlin is reached by steamer to Skagway, railway to Bennett and then by steamer.
It is distant from Victoria about one thousand miles. There are about 3,500 in this
district engaged in mining ; all are whites.

In Cariboo district during the season of 1900 there were about 150 companies
working, large and small, employing about twelve hundred men, about one-half of whom
are Chinese ; this doe.s not include the claims worked by Chinese on royalty and under
lease, which would probably increase the number of Chinese engaged in placer mining
to over one thousand.

John D. Graham, a resident of Atlin, gave evidence at A'ictoria. He said : I
reside at Atlin, one thousand miles from Victoria. It is reached by water by steamer
to Skagway, railway t-o Bennett and then by steamer. It is a mining district, placer
and quartz mining. There were last year engaged in mining .3,500, roughly speaking.
During the summer the population is large ; in winter it is reduced. Tlie population is
all white. No Chinese or Japanese are there. There were Japanese last year, mostly
engaged in the restaiu-ant business. They were mosth' frozen out and got out. Vi'e
got married women to do the work. We do it ourselves if we cannot get white women
to do it. I am opposed to the Chinese in the mining district because he works at
reduced wages. He works for less and lives on less. I have lived in the Province
since 1887. I think it would be better for the white man if the immigration of Chinese
into the country were prohibited. There would be more openings for the white man.
It seems to be human nature to go to the cheapest market. I know myself when I
came here first I could get nothing to do for the simple reason that the market was
filled with Chinese. They work for less than I could work and live.

Q. Would it be for the benefit of the industry of placer mining to have cheap
labour I — A. I think it would be better to have our mines worked by white labour. The
Chinese take all they can out of the placer mines and it is almost impossible to get any
money out of them.

it migKl be a benefit for those engaged in hydraulic mining to have cheap labour,
but the question is, what is cheap labour I Last year there were from eight hundred to
a thousand men engaged in the installation antl working of hydraulic plant, and the rest
of the men were engaged in ordinary placer mining.

Q. ^^'hat distinction do you draw between the Chinese and the Japanese ? — A. I
would rather deal with the Japanese. They are a more manly class of people.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 91

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

(^. Jn your opinion are there any mining claims not being worked by I'eason of the
cost of labour I — A. No, sir. In some eases capital has been lacking, but I believe it
has been provided for. In 1899 we were overstocked with men.

The placer mines of Cariboo (except hydraulic mining on a large scale) are worked
by Chinese ; sometimes on royalty and in some cases under leases.

Major Charles F. J. Dupont, who owns some placer claims that ai-e worked by
Chinese, said : I know that hundreds, perhaps thousands, at least a considerable per-
centage of the Chinese in British Columbia, are engaged in work that not fmly does not
interfere with white men, but produces wealth within the province. In placer mining
the Chinese are content if they make from .SI to -SI. -50 a day ; white men will not look
at that. Then the Chinese are consumers of table gootls, purx-hase their supplies at the
stores of white men. They purchase rubber boots, carpenters' tools and nails. They
are large purchasers of provisions. They travel largely bj' our railways and steamers.

I have some Chinese working on royalty for me. I had sixty in my own employ
last year. They did not make a dollar a day, yet thev are quite content to do the work
this spring. 1 never could have worked without the Chinese. I have a white man in
charge of each gang of Chinamen, and he checks the produce each night. He checks
what each man produces. Two per cent has to go to the govei-nment, and the balance
goes to the benefit of the country. I know these men are anxious to go to work this
spring and contracts have been made with some of them. They do not interfere certainly
with the white men.

I was Managing Director of a company engaged in a large work, expending about
•$■400,000 on the 8outh Fork of the Quesnel River. We paid white men §2.75 a day ;
that was for shovel work ; skilled meii we paid more. The ordinary pick and shovel
workmen were paid that. The jiick and shovel men struck for $3 a day. They were
under the impi-ession that we were at their mercy, and that we could not get any other
men to perform the work, but we employed Chinese for a while, until the white men
came to reason and were content to resume work at $2.75 a day ; then we dispensed
with Chinese labour.

The Honourable James Reid, senator, who has resided in Cariboo for 38 years,
stated that placer mining is the chief industry. The Consolidated Cariboo is in that
district. There are from five to six hundred Chinese in that district. More than one-
half of these work their own claims. The others are cooks, gardeners, and farm
labourers. The Chinese were employed in the Cariboo Consolidated. They gave place to
Japanese who worked for less and were more a^•ailable at that time. The Chinese have
been there as long as I have been there. The Chinese have been useful. We could
hardly have got along with(jut them. I think we could do with a few more of them,
for the present.

Q. In what way is the Province benefitted bv the Chinese working at placer rain-
ing I — A. I am up and down all the time and I come in touch with a great many
Chinese. Hundreds of dollars are taken out of the ground and put in circulation by
the Chinese. A Chinese will work as long as he earns his board. He will keep along
with the expectation of doing better. Sometimes they make from $8 to .$10 a day,
working hard all the time. Often they will not make more than their board, and they
will still work on ; but a white man will not do that. As soon as it goes below the
ordinary wages of the country a white man quits.

Q. How- does the Chinese money get into circulatit>n ? — A. I find when the Chinese
do well they live well. They buy chickens and eggs and beef and pork.

Q. Do they ti'avel much from one place to another I — A. Thev do in search of
mining grounds. They are continually hunting up abandoned places and working them.

All the valuable ground is workefl out in placer mining. The upper part has all
been worked out. It now requires capital to go to work and develop the deeper grounds.
The Chinese only go down a very little distance, and it will only require mining to go
down two or three feet to come to pay dirt. Notably has that proved to be the case in
the Cariboo Consolidated Company. Chinese excel in pick and shovel work and in run-
ning cars.

92 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Dennis Murj>hy, of Ashcioft, M.L.A., savs : I was born in the Cariboo country and
li\ed there till I was sixteen, and am up there every summer. I am pretty familiar
with the conditions there. The placer mines are carried on by both whites and Chinese ;
the lai-gest concerns by whites. The largest company there is the Cariboo Consolidated.
They employ over a hundred all told ; no Chinese, except cooks, but from thirty to forty
Japs. I think there are about 1,500 or :2,000 Chinese in the Cariboo, and about 1,000
engaged in the placer mining. They generally work for themselves. I don't think the
whites employ them except for placer mining. The Chinamen are employed in the old
worked out placers and they prospect just as whites do, and take up claims as whites
do.

Leicester Bonnar, of Barker\'ille, in the Cariboo District, said : There are no
Japanese around Barker\-ille. There are from 200 to 300 Chinese according to the sea-
son. About half work for themselves and half for wages. A Chinaman gets 82 and
82.25 a day and boards himself. They are not particular how long they work : I should
think a twelve hour shift. Whites are paid 83 and .~>3.50 and board themselves. He
would pay 830 a month for board. I was speaking of twenty mile radius from Barker-
^nlle. The British white labourer — that is the permanent miner — is not interfered with
bv the Chinese. I was manager of the Cariboo Gold Fields Company. They employed
from 60 to 180 men : of these about 100 out of ISO were whites. That was during
construction. Afterwards we employed about 30 whites and 15 or 20 Chinamen. The
proportion in other ujines would be about the same. It is sixty miles from Barkerville
to the Consolidated Cariboo. They employ 200 men all told ; of these about 100 are
whites and 100 Japanese. Barkerville is 286 miles by road from the Canadian Pacific
Railway. Our company operated since 1895, open hydraulic, and the largest, after the
Cariboo Consolidated. The company expended there .8500,000. It is putting in plant
now. There are four or five companies adjoining. They have expended about 8100,000
apiece. Chinese labour is an absolute necessity. The length of the mining season in
hydraulic raining is about 90 days. The men have to pay their way up. It takes four
days each way and costs 864 from Ashcroft to Barkerville and return. I am an
Englishman. I don't consider Chinese good citizens. My feelings are against Chinese.
I would clear the lot out. If they are allowed they will take the field from us. They
can li\e cheaper than whites. From a business standpoint I favour Chinese. From a
citizen's standpoint I oppose them. I think there are plenty of Chinese there now.
Thev are trained to the business. They have been there a long time. I should say
there are plenty in the country now. They have cleaned out the placer mines. They
live on nothing. I think it would be a good scheme to stop Chinese taking up land.s,
and keep Canada for Canadians. Cariboo is fairly prosperous. If there was a permanent
class of settlers it would be better for all, employers and employees. It is the permanent
settlers we want. If they were all whites it would be far better for the country.

Ednmnd B. Kerby, general manager of the War Eagle and Centre Star, says :
INly experience has extended through the Western States and Mexico, in coimection
with mines and mining work, for the last fifteen years. As to placer mines, so far as I
have been able to learn, ther seem to have gone into placer mines that white men
thought were worked out, or would languish until finally they would accept the offer of
Chinese gangs to work them for them, and work them in their own way. They lease
the property and pay a lump sum as a royalty. I have generally understood that a
running royalty was unsuccessful because no one could get at the exact amount that the
Cliinese took out of the placers. All the bargaining is done by one Chinaman, and he
deals for the gang. It has been considered an advantage to the owners, but I do not
know that it has been any advantage to the district. I do not think myself it would
be well to have placer mining carried out by Chinese all over the country. The Chinese
are working placers and taking a large amount of money, hundreds of thousands of
dollars, out of the country, and that undoubtedly has an effect on the whole communit}'.
Perhaps it will be well to leave the placers unworked until white labt>ur could be got
to work them. The Chinese get most of their supplies from their own people, and deal
very little with white men.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRA TION 93

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

SUMMARY.

In the early histiny of placer mining, after the richer claims were worked out, the
white miners left the placer diggings in great numbers, leaving large numbers of
Chinese, who continued to work the abandoned surface claims. In future the industry
will depend upon the deep placer mines, which will be worked largely by machineiy.

A large part of the earnings of the Chinese in this industry have in the past been
sent to China, and it is a question whether it would not have been better to have left
these abandoned claims to have been worked at a later stage by machinery and white
labour.

There are no Chinese engaged in placer mining in the Atlin countr\', or the Yukon
Territory.

In Cariboo, Chinese have been engaged in placer mining from the commencement
of this industry. The richer placers were worked out and the Chinese now work over
the old claims and take up new claims, sometimes working on royalty, but mostly on
their own account. They are lai'gely employed in the open hydraulic mines, except in
the Cariboo Consolidated, where Japanese and whites are employed. These mines are
situated, many of them, 1.50 to .300 miles north of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and
the diiHculty of obtaining good white labour is very great. The mining season lasts
only about ninety days. It takes from four to six daj^s each way from Ashcroft to get
in ; and for a return ticket costs $64 from Ashcroft to Barkerville.

Under the present conditions of the labour market thei'e, the Chinese are a
necessity. Those there are trained to the business, and are sufficient in numbers to
meet the demand. Exclusion of further immigration of Chinese will not affect this
industry.

CHAPTER XL— LODE MINING.

This industry has steadily increased since 1887. In that year the output was
.$26,547 ; in 1892 it had reached .$100,000 ; in 1893 nearly $300,000 ; in 1894 nearly
.$800,000: in 189.5 over .$2,000,000; 1896 over .$4,000,000; 1897, $7,000,000 ; 1898,
.$6,500,000 ; 1899, .$6,750,000 ; and in 1900 over $10,000,000. There are probably
between 7,000 and 8,000 men engaged in that industry. No Chinese or Japanese are
employed in the interior, and very few on the coast.

Edmund B. Kerby, manager of the War Eagle and Centre Star, says : There are
no Cliinese or Japanese employed in those mines, nor have they ever been employed
under my management. We have a lai-ge hotel up there in which at one time some
Chinese were employed. They were employed in the laundry, and perhaps a couple of
Chinese around cleaning up the bunk houses ; that was not in the mining c(jmpany, or
anything to do with the mining company. When we operated the hotel or boarding
house we had two ; the parties to whom we leased it have one as a cook. Outside of
that they are not used, except for domestic service among the members of the staff. I
have had a large experience in mines on the other side. I have never known the
employment of any Chinese except in placer mines ; that holds good all over the coast.
My headquarters were in Colorado, but I had worked pretty much all through the
Western States in connection with mines and mining work. I do not see that any
inconvenience would result at present if no more Chinese came in. I do not think
myself that it is for the best interests of the community to have an unlimited supply of
Chinese or Japanese labour coming into the country. My impression is that the plan
we have adopted in the LTnited States has worked out fairly well.

As to their being employed in rock or quartz mines, I have never seen the question
raised. In the first place, their ability as miners would be rather deficient, and
physically they are not nearly as strong as white men. Then, for another reason, their
limited knowlerlge of English would make them a little harder to train as miner's ; and
I suppose were mine superintendents to think of employing Chinese underground, they
would consider the fact that it would lead to more or less trouble with the men, who

94 REPORT OF ROYAL COMillSSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

\vould object to tlieir beiiiji used uiidergrouiul. I liave ne\er seen the ijuestion raised,
liowevei', of employing them underground, so far as metahferous mines ai'e concerned.

Bernard ^SIcDonald, manager of the British America Corporation, the LeRoy, etc.,
itc, says : We employ between 800 and 900 men. I employ one Chinamen as a janitor
in the office. The boarding house is leased and the cooks there employed are whites.

There is just one Cliinaman in the employ of the Company. It would make no
difference to us if no more Chinese came in. I do not regard the Chinese as a class of
people desirable to form the basis of the citizenship of the country. I draw a distinc-
tion ; I think the Japanese woizld be prefei-able, because they are more progressive, and
therefore more profitable, but mv knowledge of them is not extensive. In the United
States Chinese have not been employed to any considerable extent in the mines or in
the industries connected with the mines. There are no Chinese employed in them that
I kno«' of. The mining industries have developed \-ery fast in the United States. I
do not think it advisable. Where these people are not employed there has not been
any retarding of the de\"elopment. The development in the Creur d'Alene has been
rapid and has gone on without this class of labour, .and the development has gone on
rapidly in other parts without the presence of the Chinese. Although the railways
were built by the Chinese, I do not see why we cannot get along without these people.
I think it would help t« get white labour here if the Chinese were not here, and then
we would have white girls — plenty of them.

James Devine, secretary of the Miners Union, Rossland, says : Chinese are not
employed in or about the mines in this \icinity. I have had experience in Colorado,
New Mexici) and portions of Arizona. They are not emploved in any of the mines I
e\"er worked in. I should certainly sav the Government shoukl prohibit this class of
peopile from eimiing into the Province. They are of no benefit to the country and it
would be a benefit to encourage the immigration of white labour. They affect all
trades and callings, both directly and indirectly, wherever they are. They drive out
wliite labour and force it to seek employment elsewhere. It drives white labour from
the coast cities and to seek employment in the mines. Labour when driven out by the
Chinese has to seek employment where it is most likely to find it. There is more labour
in the city at the present time than there is a demand for. There is an overabundance
of labour here. The supply of ininers has always been equal to the demand since I
came to the country. They make it more difficult for wliite men to get employment,
and their presence also has a depressing effect on the coast cities from which we could
get white labour.

The wages here compare with the wages on the other side very favourably. In
some portions of Montana the wages are !p3..50 a day : in Washington State for skilled
iijiners S3. -50 a day. In pi:)rtions of Montana, in the great copper mines of Butte,
skilled and unskilled labour are S3.50 a day ; in this camp imskilled labour is .§"2. .50 a
day. All over the Kootenay country unskilled labour is paid §3 a day in the mine.
There is always more labour in the country than there is a demand for.

J. B. McArthur, K.C., of Rossland, says : I have resided in Rossland since
January 189-5, when it had a population of 75. I am interested in mining here and in
the Slocan dis rict, the boundary district, Similkameen, Lardo and Duncan. No Chinese
or Japanese are employed in mining in any of these districts. Where they are engaged
at mines as cooks they are generally paid from .?50 to 860 a month and board ; the
second cook gets $40 a month.

The general feeling in these districts is universal, that the Chinese shall not be
engaged in mining or in mines at all. The view is uni\ersal that they should be further
restricted. My opinion is that a §300 tax would jiractieally bar out all the undesirable
Chinese : that is the Chinese that come into competition with white labour. I think
what they really desire, as far as the boundary country is concerned, is practical prohi-
bition of further Chinese immigration. Of course there are exceptions to that rule.
That would apjily to the whole of the country I liave referred to, as far as I can judge.
As to the de\'elopment of mining centres, I do not think it would have affected us at all
if there had been no Chinese. I think as the new conditions arose we would have met
them in some way or other, but the Chinese followed the white men into all these

ox cniNESJi: and japaxese immighatjox 95

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

camps. I have seen three or fiiur camps started, ami the Chinese always folhiwed the
white men into the camps very quickly. I ha\e about seventy men all told employed in
tlie mining industry. Grand Forks, with a population of fifteen hundred, has ".^ Chinese
and 2 Japanese, — 17 laundrymen, i(5 cooks, 5 gardeners, -t merchants, I'G labourers and
hangers on, and two prostitutes, —the largest Chinese population of any other place in
the bounihuy.

1 think tlie production of the mines justifies the mine owners in paying the rate of
wages paid. The grade of ore i.s more in the boundary. Tiiey pay slightly liiglier wages
to muckers there than here, and have no trouble about labour i[uestions tliere. There
is no reason why our mining resources cannot be developed here as tliey are in Montana
and other places. I certainly think it in the interest of the country to exclude the
Chine.se.

The Honourable Smith Curtis, of Rosslanfl, says : I am a barrister by profession,
l)ut for the last two yeai's have been engaged in mining, and not followed my pro-
fession. I am pretty familiar with the conditions now existing here. I am strongly
in favour of the exclusion of all oriental labour. My reasons are : the orientals are
physically and mentally an inferior race, and if allowed to come into the country
without restriction they will dri\e out the white pt)pulation, outside of the capitalistic
class, or they will force white people to live on the same plane as the oi-ientals ; in
other words, the white race would be driven out, or be degenerated and degraded. 1
hold that a servile I'ace, or class, is not beneficial to a white race, and that has been
proved by the experience of having the negro in the Southern States. And the
inferiority of the orientals to the white race in British Columbia is shown by the
refusal of the white race to assimilate in any degree whatever with the oriental.
The opinion throughout the country, I believe, is pi-actically unanimous. It is almost the
unanimous opinion of all classes that there should be no more immigration of this class
of orientals into British Columbia. In so far as industry is concerned, I do not think
they are at all essential or necessary. I know of no industry that would seriously suffer
from the exclusion of the Chinese. Its tendency is to keep white labour out of the
country. If they were not here we would have the country pojmlated by a very desir-
able class of white people, who would settle and develoj) the country. We are a new
country ; what we want above all things is good white labour. I may say in this coun-
try tlie)' can afford to pay the standard wages. We do not shut down because we cannot
pay the standard wages, but because we have not sufficient capital to-day to develop pro-
perty which can afford to pay white labour, so we do not require to ha\'e low-priced
oriental labour. We have plenty of propositions — paying propositions ; the country is
full of them, simply waiting capital intelligently applied.

Geoi'ge Allan Kirk, wholesale merchant, of Victoria, and interested in mining,
says : Take the case of mines. A number of mines with low grade are tied up because
of the price of labour ; there are a numbei' of low grade mines which eann(^)t be worked
because of the cost of mucking and pushing. Thei'e is a mine up near Silverton with a
\ery narrow vein ; consequently we cannot pay so much to get the ore out ; we cannot
affoi-d to pay $3 a day for doing it. The consequence is the mine is closed down and a
number of people — one party of Scotch people — have been thrown out of empknnnent,
because the mine owners could not afl'ord to pay the price demanded for labour. If the
work was done by Chinese and Japanese it could be done foi- much less. The mining
itself could be done by white miners, but the common labour, such as mucking, should
be done by cheap labour, such as the Chinese or Japanese. The machines could be
worked by the white miners. I do not think that the effect of that would be that
Chinese and Japanese would gradually encroach upon the white man's work, and get to
working the machine.

In South America the common work is done by natives and there is plenty of work
for white men.

Q. What do the white men there do ( — A. They oversee the natives.

Q. There are compai-atively few white men employed i — A. There is a white man
to oversee each gang.

96 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. Do vou think it would be in the interests of the country and white labour to
allow Chinese to come in without restriction — to allow them to come in in large numbers
— a coolie class as you say .' — A. Certainly.

Q. Do vou think a coolie class is desirable in any country ? — A. Well if vou want
to get into manufacturing I do not see what else you can do.

Q. I mean in the interests of the country, do you think a coolie class is desirable ?
— A. I was speaking from the standpoint of an employer.

Q. What is the effect on wiiite labour ? — A. I think it has a tendency to keep
white labour down in the trades where the Chinese compete.

Q. Do you think that is desirable ? — A. From an employer's point of view it is.

Henry Croft, of Victoria, says : I am engaged in mining at Mount Sicker, forty-
five miles from Victoria ; employ both white and Japanese labour at the mines. We
employ only white labour in the mines, and Japanese in the sorting of ore. We employ
from thirty to thirty-five Japanese. The boys from the town would come up and work
for three or four weeks and then leave us suddenly. Either we had to get other labour
or shut down. I thought about securing Japanese from sixteen to twenty-one years of
age. We secured the Japanese for that labour. We found them perfectly satisfactory
in every way. We pay them 90 cents a day. We cannot employ white labour for the
simple reason that trade prices will not allow it. If we were to pay labour at $2.75 a
day, which is what I understand to be paid in the Kootenays, it would make a difference
to us in profit of over $1,900 a year. We employ only three or four Chinese, cutting
wood. I am averse to Chinese and Japanese immigration, but I consider that in new
countries like South Africa and Australia you must have cheap labour. I think there
is a sufficient number of Chinese here now. I do not think it necessary to permit any
more Chinese to come into the country ; there are enough of Chinese and Japanese here
at present. I believe it is now like a tap ; when you want water 3-ou turn it on, and
when you have got enough you turn it off. All you have got to do is to put a per
capita tax on the Chinese high enough to exclude them. I think the miners to be
introduced should be men likely to become permanent residents of the country.

Exclusion would certainly increase the immigration to this Province, but I do not
think for some time. It will tend to make the different industries in a flourishing con-
dition, as there would be more demand for goods of all kinds. I should advise the
stoppage of immigration from the Orient in the future ; we have enough Oriental labour
in the Province now.

White labour will not come in while the Chinese and Japanese are occupying the
place in cheap labour that they are doing at present, but with a restriction on immigra-
tion, wliite labour will gradually come in here, and the Japanese will leave the country.

Henry Crosdaile, of Nelson, says : I have been up to October last, manager of the
Hall Mines. I was manager for seven years. When we were working full we had two
hundred men. Neither Chinese nor Japanese were engaged in or about the mines. The
head cook was not a Chinaman ; he had an assistant at times, and one or two Chinamen
for washing up. In my opinion the country is not fit for further restriction. I am
speaking of this district. There is a large minority of people here who are de|:)endent
on the Chinese, and the Chinese in rendering them the ordinary service connected with
gardening, washing and domestic service, do not come into contact in any way with the
labouring classes. I am quite willing to admit that the majority of the people here are
opposed to any further immigration of Chinese, but I think the majordty is made up of
people who do not employ Chinese, nor get any benefit from their service. If you take
the opinion of people who have been the employers of Chinese, I think you will find a
number of them in favour of keeping the restriction as it is, and not increasing it ; but
the main point I should like to make is this : I do not see how this district — the
existence of the Chinese that are here — in any way affects the mines or the laboui-ing
men in the country. They certainly do not keep down wages or come into conflict with
them in anv way whatever. They do not even get employment on the railways in this
district. I do not regard them as a desirable race, — that is to have the full rights of
citizens, — certainly not the right to vote, because they do not have the power of under-
standing the form of government under which we live. They do not take any interest

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 97

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

in it. I simply look upon them as a class of citizens that we have to make use of, —
only fitted for the service they render. They are good servants, and law-abiding. I do
not think tliey are taking the place of citizens.

Q. Do 3'ou consider them a factor of any importance in the development of this
section of the country ? — A. No, I cannot say I do. They are not mining, and as I say,
in this district, any work they do does not tend to develop the district. It is naturally
dependent on mining, and in a secondary degree the prosperity is dependent on the
rail way.

Q. Is there an abundance of ordinary labour in this country — white labour? — A. Yes.
Their wages are from .f 2..50 to .§3. .50 a day at the mines ; that is on skilled labour.

'fo Mi: Wilson :

Q. As a British subject you feel it is desirable that the Chinese and .lapanese
should be gradually excluded, but all you desire is that it should not be rapidly con-
summated ? — A. Yes.

SUMMARY.

The metalliferous mines yield the largest amount annually of any natural industry
of the province. Out of a total yield of all minerals, including coal and coke, of over
.>?1 6,000,000 for the year 1900, the lode mines alone yielded over $10,000,000. The
industry has steadily increased since 1887, when the output was only S26,.547, and this
magnificent showing has been done almost exclusivelj' by white labour.

The Chinese are not employed in the Kootenay or in the boundary district in
connection with the mines, except in some instances in getting out cordwood, and as
cooks. We heard of one mine near Yale where Chinese are said to be employed as
miners, and a few are employed for development work in the interior, but only to a very
limited extent, and their emploj^ment in this industry has not appreciably affected its
development, nor can it be said that it is dependent to any considerable extent upon
this class of labour. They are not an important factor.

The evidence of the large employers was to the effect that if there was no further
immigration of this class of labour it would not retard the development of this industry.
The opinion of those interested is almost, if not quite, unanimous in favour of excluding
further Chinese immigration.

CHAPTER XII.— THE LUMBER INDUSTRY (EXPORT TRADE.)

TOTAL OUTPUT.

By the report of the Provincial Timber Inspector of British Columbia, for the year
ending December -31, 1900, it appears ;

There has been cut upon Crown Lands in timber 1.52,486,199 ft.

cordwood. . 19,202,900 "
" leaseholds in timber 61,140,883 "

232,831,982

There has been cut upon private property in timber. 9,74.5,641
" " E. A N. Ry. land (so far as

reported) 27,272,770

Imported timber 6,386,077

4.3,404,488
.54—7

98 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Tlie cut for the vear 1899 amounted to only 217,000,0(10, showing an increase in
the total outj)ut of 59,000,000 feet. The above does not inchide timber cut on Dominion
lands, and only a jtortion of that cut on the Esquimalt and Xanaimo Railway land.

TOTAL E.XPORT.

The total shipments of lumber of the British Columbia mills for exjiort for tlie yeai-
1900 amounted to 84,210,553 feet. Of this large amount the Chemainus mills con-
tributed .38,365,83.3 feet, the Hastings mills 23,873,782 feet, Moodyville mills, 19,312,-
482 feet, the Royal City mills, New Westminster, which are under the same manage-
ment as the Hastings Mills, 1,312,100 feet, the Canadian Pacific mills, Port Moody,
687,353 feet : and the Northern Pacific Lumber Company, Barnet, 659,003 feet. It
will be seen that three mills contributed about 97 per cent of the total expnit.

EXPORT FROM PUfiET SOfXD.

There was a total export from Puget Sound mills nf 156,857,489 feet.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

. ^, . ^

t--r ^

C<1

■tT ?; -3 -r t^ X 3 ^ .-1 1- iC

-f

(M CO :/: :r « x ::; o X CO ir:

tC rT — ' trf T-T -r" icT -x" co' co i^

-^-f-rccot-:rr:^'MC-

3& L- m O r- -1— f O I- -S- CO 5VT

z:.

c^*'r-r'rrx"ci"o ■v^cT-hc^Tc-

CO cr. .-1 r-i C3 CN

f CO •- -j: c ■?] '- -r t- cr. CO

^ :r -^ .- -ri L- -c^ .— — !£: *;:

tc ir: X 01 c: :^ ~ jo oo c: oc

-r

— T

CO 01 — X I-- ■-:: X 01 CO — c

t-^-f^l-T — XCO^y^Oq

»a

^'S' -r-xooix;ri^coTi-!r3c^

- ^

x' CO ir: of -*' o co' ^' --''' r-T cr

cs"

CO CO ■ o o o O — ' ■ to ^

1 "^

1^ '«

:-:it- x^ncocHo -oc

'^^'^ co^co 30^ c:^'^^ "^t^ ' »n 1

co'tj' ' i^Tjrx"t-^co' . r-T^

>: S^

-fCO .XiOOOl-J .^Sb-

:=: c

3© O C: . GO «f? 00 00 '^^ -C

'Ti'^CJ

io?o •irT'^cc oT "i-T

■^

c^cc •

J d

o t— t^ ■ X ■

Tj-Tf -X -t- •

•c

Oi_co CO ■ -rr

■ ■ t>

'T^tS ■ af : ^"

!cc

id"

X IC . CO . o .

. . t>

^ CO :o . t^ . i-O .

Ol O "CO " --• ■

'-' ="3 ;

; ; ■.'■.'■

: : : ; I ■ .o ■ •

>-.— Jj

o • •

=4 C ^ =

. . . . . .,-1 . .

:::::■«..

e« :::::; :S • :

>>■= s-=

i-h"

<S|^ =

; ^ ; ; .'...'.

.i~ • • • •

CO • -

.5fi >>

" t-^ ! ." ' *

L~r

-o .."^

c3 o ;

^ :$:::.

C--C =

.=?-3S

O ri

'iicific
■Co.,

pt.

CO • ■ ■ •

:^- : : • - :

OS*

" K ! I '. . '

1^ r*

^ -^ : : : : .

S 3W

O P

;3^

CO o ■ - -f c-1 -co ■ ■

C^l

-S

T-cn ^ci -t^ ■ ■

CC^ • -r-iZZ -CO ■

■^

oTo" ! co'-^ ■ hC : :

o CO . . ri o X . .

^ 00 0^ . . t^ "^ o . .

N L- . : CO .-• : -f ■ :

tH •

CO ■ X O O LO X ■ i-O

1 CI

as X - .-( CO --= r^ oi ■ o

x^io -q_oi_-j;^ai_o^ ■ -*__

1 t-

o"x' i rf— "o'l-^-i^ I'-T

1 CO

^^ lo r: .-^eocic^tr o

* a)U> f-iX'jocco .o

I X

OT^" . Oq ■^ : rH

•■•:.■■ o

: o

: cu

:■'::. 23

:_«

; : : c3

*^ . ■ . . . o

■ c

r ■ : - ■ -■£:

- c3

= .■::: S! c . ■"

■:2 - ; ■ ■ - a g . <

c • . . . .<^ S- . «

■^ J ■ ■ ' " "st: ■ ^

C.3 : : • S = ;a:

«•-; « ..[Cm

, ; £ c S ■ : t- c

54— 7i

100 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

The Hastings Mill employs 512 men, namely, 257 in and about the mills, and 255
in the camps. Of the men emploj'ed m and about the mills 164 are white men and 93
Japanese. No Chinese are employed. Of the 255 men employed in the camps, 245 are
white men, and 10 Chinese, employed exclusively as cooks and theii- helpers.

The Moody^dlle Mill employs 110 men, of whom 60 are white men, 40 Japanese,
and 10 Chinamen.

The Chemainus Mill employs in and about the mills 58 white men, 55 Chinamen,
and 56 Japanese, and in the camps, 128 white men, 19 Chinamen, and 30 Japanese.

It will be seen from the above that the mills who do the principal export business
employ comparati^elv few Chinese.

Edmund James Palmer, manager of the Victoria Lumber Company, at Chemainus,
said : I have been connected with the company for twelve years. We have in the mill
58 whites, 55 Chinese, and 56 Japanese. The Chinese have been employed in the mill
since Februarv, a year ago, and the Japanese about the same time. Before that white
men only were employed.

In the woods we have 128 white men, 19 Chinese, and 30 Japanese. Sixteen
Chinese are employed as water carriers in the woods. I never employed Japanese in the
woods until three months ago. I let them a contract for grading a road. The total
number employed by the company is 347, of whom 186 are whites. We have doubled
the capacity of our mUl. Our business is entirely export. We have to compete with
mills on Puget Sound. We have three mills, the Hastings, Moody^dlle and our mill,
doing an export business. We are the largest exporters in British Columbia. I think
we exported as much as all the rest put together last year. We have never carried on
our business by white labour exclusively. It is simply impossible ; we cannot do it. I
think there are sufficient Chinese here at present to supply all demands. I think there
ai'e plenty of Japanese here.

I do not think any business man or employer of labour, throwing all sympathy out
of the question, but would be willing to pay a white man 82 a day rather than a China-
man SI. I have never found any difference of opinion as to this : that it takes three
Chinese to do the work of two white men, and sometimes it takes two Chinamen to do
the work of one white man in any hea\'y work, if not more than that.

Q. Then, do I apprehend you aright when I note you as saying you think we have
enough Chinese here now ? — A. Yes, I do think we have enough of them here now.

Q. And speaking of your industiy, you say no serious inconvenience would arise if
no more Chinese came here ? — A. I think not. White people would then move in with
their familie-, and it would be a benefit to us. The change would take place gradually.
It would not take place all at once ; and there would be no injury to business or any
inconvenience to speak of ... .

Q. You are satisfied if no more Chinese came in, white men with their families would
gradually come in, and the question of labour would adjust itself? — A. Yes, I say so.

Q. Do you think the presence of Chinese here has a tendency to prevent white
inunigration ? — A. Yes, if there were no more Chinese coming in white labour would
soon come in this direction. Tliat would be a positi\e benefit to the Pro\'ince. The
Chinese will never become citizens or assimilate, nor is it desirable.

Q. Looking at the matter then from the standpoint of the interest of the country,
and not being forgetful of your ewn interests, what do you say ? There is no question
about it disturbing present conditions 1 — A. I would say that all further immigration of
Chinese or Japanese should be prohibited. What we have here now I think quite
sufficient, and I think we can gradually work white labour in until we would soon have
sufficient white labour in the country to answer all demands.

Q. Can you compare the standard of living of the Chinese and of the whit« people '?
— A. There could be no comparison between the li^^ng of the two nations. W^hite
people could not possibly live as the Chinese do. Very little of tlie money earned in
this country by the Chinese is spent here. They send all their spare money, and that is
more than two-thirds of their earnings, to China. We never do one dollar's worth of
business in a month with Chinese. They come in on the last of the month and get
their books and their money, and they trade entirely with their own people. The
Japanese are different.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 101

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

We pay Chinese and Japanese from $1 to $1.25. The lowest rate of wages paid to
whites for mill work is |2. It ranges from $2 to $ii. There is one paid $8, one $6.50
one $5, one $4.50, six at $3.50, four at $3.25, three at $2.25, two at $2.50, and the
balance at $2. Lowest wages paid whites in the woods is from $2.25 and up to $3.75.
When not on contract the Japanese get $1 a day. Chinese get $1.25 a day.

I know of the Port Blakeley Mill, the Port Gamble Mill, the Ludgate Mill, the
St. Paul and Taconia, and the Bellingham Mill Company on the Sound, AVith the
exception of the Blakeley Mill, all the other mills employ whites. The Port Blakeley
Mill is the only mill that employs Japanese. Last year, owing to the excitement as to
the Nome gold mining, they put in 300. They have 340 working in the Port Blakeley
Mill now ; they have Japanese on the carriers, on the trimmers, and everywhere.
These are the principal mills we have to compete with. They do not employ Chinese.

There is a difference of one shilling and three pence to two shillings and six pence
on freight rates between all Puget Sound points and British Columbia in favor of Puget
Sound. It does not make any difference whether we are shipping to India, China or
the Cape ; they make that difference in the rate per one thousand feet. They claim the
cause of it is extra pilotage charges on this side, the extra cost of supplies on this side
from what they cost on the other, and sick mariners' benefit. That applies to the rate
on sailing vessels. They have to pay extra pilotage, they tell us, and sick mariners'
benefits on this side. The pilotage would not amount to $50 on one million feet. The
bulk of the ships carrying lumber are owned in California, and they have used that as a
leverage to force the ships over there.

Q. What are y(.)ur other disadvantages '? — A. The freight rates, then they have a
market, a home market that is very wide, they can ship lumber that we cannot ship.
Thej' can ship anything that is five or six feet long to the eastern market that we have
to burn up as we cannot find any market for it here. We have no market for lumber
less than sixteen feet long. Their machinery costs them considerably less. A large
portion of the machinery we use is American machinery. They have also a preference
of from thirty-six to thirty-seven cents a thousand feet by freight vessels.

The average cost of towing on Puget Sound is forty cents, on this side it is $1, but
we have an advantage being nearer the raw material.

The Americans have a market for everything they cut, no matter how short it is or
how inferior it is. The strongest competition we have is from the State of Oregon.
Their labour is white; their common labour gets $1.75 a day without board, their
lowest class $1.65 a day. Living is cheaper over thei-e, at least fifteen per cent lower
than here. In Washington the general run of labour is $1.75 for common ordinary
labour around the mill. Men sometimes only get $1.50 a daj' ; boys cleaning up, $1 a
day.

Q. What proportion of your hands will be employed in the manufacture of rough
lumber ? — A. At the present time I have none. We have two or three cargoes and not
a bit of rough lumber in them. European cargoes take more rough lumber. South
Africa takes nothing but rough lumber ; Melbourne takes rough lumber ; Adelaide
takes ten per cent manufactured and ninety per cent rough lumber ; Sydney varies
from ten to twenty per cent of rough lumber ; China takes a small percentage of dressed
lumber. They take a great deal of rough lumber. In a cargo of one million feet they
will take twenty thousand feet of dressed lumber ; while the countries of South America
take ijuite a percentage of dressed lumber. It would depend on the cargoes ordered
whether we run the planers or not.

The witness further dealt with the labour aspect of the question as follows :

I would rather take white labour and pay them twenty-five cents a day more and
take my chances of competition with the other side. If I could get white men to come
with their families and stay here I would rather have them than any Chinese or
Japanese.

Q. Would it be possible to get white labour in the east to supply your demands 1 — •
A. I am not familiar with the labour market in eastern Canada, but in Wisconsin and
Michigan our Company are operating quite a number of mills. In the summer time the
men work in the mills and in the winter time they work in the woods, and they stay

102 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

there with our companies vear in and year out. They hve there iDeeause thev have
steady work and they are generally men with families, but here the white labour who
operate the mill, at least at Chemainus, are a floating population. They have run away
from ships or have been unsuccessful in mining, and they come here to make a little
start again. As soon as the hsliing opens on the Fraser they will leave to go and catch
salmon. They expect to make more money, whether they do it or not. They leave us
with very little warning. I would not take a contract and depend upon them.

Swedes and Norwegians are employed in a number of mills on the other side. You
cannot bring them over here, at least I do not think they would come. If the Chinese
were not allowed to come in any more I would take chances of getting steady and satis-
factory white labour. We are an export mill and largely dependent on our shipping
facilities. One ship ^\'L11 make a passage in 21 days and ant)ther will take 90 days for
the same passage, and there are times when we are out of ships and we have to close
down. Whenever we had to close down the white men would leave us. In Januaiy
something like 84,411 was expended simply in holding my skilled labour together. I do
not think there would be anv difficulty in getting married men to come here if there
were no Chinese or Japanese here. I think it is the proper way to solve the problem.
I think that bringing white men and their families here would finally lead to the exclu-
sion of the Chinese and Japanese. I do not claim that Chinese is cheap labour. We
have no great advantage in having the Chinese. .......

The remedy I suggest is stop the Chinese coming in and offer some inducements for
the surplus good white labour of the east to come out here. If I had my choice I
would have Norwegians and Swedes -vnth large families. We cannot pay more than 82
a day and compete with the mills on the other side. We would be better able to com-
pete if we could sell all the lumber we produce, short and long. If we could get them
to stay for a Uttle wliile and get married and get to raising vegetables for themselves,
they would soon stay with us.

If we could not get cheap labour we woukl have to close down, but I do not think
that is likely to occur. I think we could get white labour to supply the demand.

If it were generally known throughout the east that this was not a Pro^-ince
devoted exclusively to Chinese cheap labour, if it was understood there was a prohibi-
tion on Chinese labour coming into this country, I am almost certain enough of white
labour would come in. I do not know positively that it would come in, but if there
was a call for labour the railroads would offer cheap rates, and white people would then
come to the coast. It is a serious problem. There are quite enough Chinese here. I
can get all I want without anv difficulty. I apprehend no danger at all from there not
being enough Cliinamen.

The wage has got to be regulated by the price of the manufactured product. Every-
thing is more prosperous when you are paying big wages and getting more for your
product. If they have a good market in the United States they are not likely to com-
pete with us over here. I employ MongoHan labour from interest. Chinese and Japanese
will never take the place of white men in cutting timber. They are no good in the
woods.

If you want to improve the stock in a country you import good stock from the
east or from other countries. If you are figuring to settle up'a community and open
up the counti'v Japanese are no good. In the east eighty per cent of the men are mar-
ried and have their families with them.

We will say for instance we want to employ thirty on the wharf. I have got to
have thirty men for the work before I can go on at all. No white man will work with
Chinese. We have got to put in all Chinese or all white men. If we had a class of
labour coming in here who would not consider it a degradation to work at menial work
there would be no difficulty. At the present time the demand for white labour is far
in excess of the supply. We do not want a ser\-ile class here. There is a dignity in
all kinds of honest labour.

The American lumber trade has not been injured as a result of the exclusion of the
Chinese. They seem to be able to compete with us right along, although we have the
benefit of low-priced Chinese and Japanese labour. AMiite immigration from the east

ON CHINEUE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 103

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

has come in and taken the place of Chinese and Japanese labour over there. At the
time they had trouble with the Chinese, the export of lumber did not amount to more
than fifteen million feet, and to-day that has increased to two hundred million feet.
Exclusion certainly would do no harm hei'e. I think it would be of great benefit. I
am in favour of total exclusion. I think we have enough of the Chinese here now.

Richard H. Alexander, manager of the Hasting.s mill owned by the British Col-
umbia Mills, Timber and Trading Co., say.s : We employ all together in and around the
mill and in connection with it, 2.57 hands, and in connection with the camps, inT), total
.512 ; in the mill 164 whites, no Chinese, 93 Japanese. The whites' duties are in con-
nectit)n with the operation of the machines and marking. The Japanese are em]iloyed
in and about the mill trucking lumber and piling it. Japane.se are paid from ninety
cents to .f 1.25 a day. White men run from .§40 to !|4.5 a month. Five .sawyers from
$4 to .$5 a day ; and files, there are five of them, paid $7 a day. Some other men are
paid from .$3.2.5 to$3.50. Of the men in camp 24-5 are whites, the rest are Chinese cooks,
ten altogether ; no Japanese. Average wage for white $2.25 to !|2.50 per day ; over-
seers a good deal more ; Chinese cooks possibly $40 or §45 a month.

I may say in connection with the mill there is another matter that can be
fairly included ; when we have three vessels at the wharf we generally employ about
fifty stevedores. They do not figure on our pay rolls because we do not employ them
directly, although they are as much a part of the business as the others. They are one-
third or one-fourth Indians ; the others are whites.

The Japanese are all in inferior positions with the exception of the lath mill, at
which thei-e are six or seven of them at the cut-off saws and trimmers. We first engaged
them twels'e years ago. We have always had in the mill a certain proportion of cheap
labour. In the early days we had Indians. They gradually got off fi'om working in
the mills and we replaced them by Chinese. On account of the strong feeling against
the Chinese we discontinued them, and we have since been using the .Japanese, but we
have always had a proportion of inferior or cheap labour in and about the mill. The
Indians were not crowded out by either the Chinese or Japanese. They worked for less
but they got their board, and that would make their wages equal to ■$! a day. At that
time we had an Indian ranch close to the mill, and the Indians all found work in the
mill. That ranch was removed and thej' went and lived on the other side of the Inlet.
Another reascm may have been that during the construction of the railway they could
get more profitable work witli the contractors. There is this difliculty about the Indians,
you cannot have them steadily ; you cannot get them to work steady.

Japanese are steadier than the Indians and they are stronger in some cases. A
Chinaman will go along like a machine and do the same work every morning until night
at the same rate, steady as a machine, but the Japanese has got more spirit, and if he
sees the machine crowding him he will put on a spurt and keep the machine clear. The
Chinaman will let the machine block up and will want another man to help him. The
Japanese is better for the work than the Chinese in the way I mention.

I have resided in the country 40 years, over 31 years here. In 1862 there were
Cliinese in the country, most of them had come from California. They worked in laun-
dries, market gardens and in domestic service. A great many of them were engaged in
placer mining up the river.

y. Speaking of the Chinese exclusively, do you think there are sufficient in the
country now to meet the requirements, or to meet the demands ? — A. I do not desire to
say anything about them. My desire is to confine myself to my own business, what I
know.

Q. Are you in favour of further immigration of the Chinese? — A. I think that in-
formation should come from some person who employs them.

The question is that we have always had a certain amount of clieap labour in con-
nection with the operation of the lumber industry. It is (juite possible that white labour
would be generally profitable if we could get it under the same conditions, but as I
understand the question of restriction, the object is to replace oriental labour with
white labour.

104 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

As it is at present tlie white men cannot work at the rate of wages that the Japan-
ese do. Now if the Japanese were replaced by white labour at a higher rate of wages,
on the industry there can be but one result ; we would either have to raise the price of
the article produced or shut down the manufacture altogether. In our case the article
manufactured has to be exported. It has to meet competition in the markets of the
world with the same commodities of other places ; and not only that, but in the opera-
tion of your trade there must be suthcient remuneration to pay interest on the capital
invested. We find we have not even our own domestic market to ourselves. AVe tind
owing to the present state of the industry that we are subjected to the competition of lum-
ber coming in irom the United States, which comes into Canada free of duty. In the
United States thej- manufacture lumber under conditions which are better than oui-s.
We have to paj' duties on our supplies, on all that we use ; machinery and tools, whilst
they do not pay any duty, and we have to come into competition with lumber produced
there under cheaper labour. We may have a little cheap labour here, such as the
Japanese gi\e, but against that we have to put the cost of transportati<m and other ad-
vantages we do not possess. It is not in our power to increase the price of lumber. We
cannot obtain the white labour at such a low rate of wages as would enable us to com-
pete. We have to look very carefully for the wliite labour we want. The Japanese
supply the want of the pi'oportion of cheap labour that is necessaiy to compete in the
markets of the world. The point is this : we have alwavs had a certain proportion of
cheap labour, and in order to compete successfully we must have it, and having that
cheap labour we are enabled to employ white men in the higher branches of the
industry.

Allow me to impress on the Commission again that if the .Japanese are replaced at
a higher rate of wages in the manufacturing of lumber there can be no other I'esult but
one : we would have to raise the price of the article produced, or go out of the business.

Of the total number of men employed, "^12, there are in round figures eighty per
cent, of whites as against 20 per cent, orientals, and if you include the fifty men I have
spoken of in the loading of ships, the pi-oportion of whites will be still greater. Of the
percentage stated the whites recei\ed eighty-eight per cent, of the wages and the orien-
tals not twelve per cent. The proportion, you will see, is about one Japanese to four
white men and the four men get seven-eighths of the wages.

In connection ^\ith our business at the Hastings mill, the total wages paid last
year was 8277,376.15, out of which the whites received .'?245,3f>9.3-3 and the orientals
$31,806.80, and, as I have already said, if you include the men working in the ships it
will be still more for the whites. Every ship will average more than a million feet,
and at that average the wages paid will be more than $1,000 on every ship. It seems
to me it is for you gentlemen to judge whether it be ad\'isable by doing away with this
factor of cheap labour to risk the stoppage of the industry, and not only hazard the
large amount of money there is invested, but hazard the employment of the white peo-
ple. Whether for the sake of excluding one Cliinese or one Japanese you would run the
risk of throwing out of employment four white men with all the families dependent on
them, and they pay more money away for supplies. It is with no feeling of hostility at
all to the white men that I state this. I do not think the subject has ever been fairlj'
placed before the intelligent workmen of tiiis pro^^nce. It is all very well for those
who do not know anything about the industrv to say there will be no injury to any
trade or calling by the exclusion of the Japanese, and that no industry would be incon-
venienced if the Japanese were replaced by white people, and that the industry should
be allowed to go rather than that Japanese sln)uld be employed in it, but I do not think
they understand what they are sa^-ing, with all due candour.

You may ask me if there is not sufficient margin to allow high wages to be paid.
I will just give you an example of that from a letter that only came to me yesterday.
I got a letter dated April 19 from a prominent lumber purchaser, who writes sajang
that liis firm is about bming a cargo at $8.50 on the American side, less two and a half
and two and a half, or about $8.09 net ; that is the cost they tell me on the American
side. The vessel we should use, should we secure the contract, for carrying the lumber
would have to get one shilling and threepence extra for coming to this port, coming to

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 105

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

our mill, so the writer of the letter sets forth ; deducting this, say 30 cents from $8.09,
leaves .*!7.79 that the lumbei' can be purchased for on the American side. The writer
of the letter says : ' If you will sell us this cargo at the same price, say 87.79 per thous-
and, we will give you tlie preference.' Now there is the true position of the lumber in-
dustry at the present time.

Now, the logs to-day at the different camps are held at $5 a thousand ; the towage
will be 75 cents a thousand. I may say that is low. The Goveriunent get a royalty of
50 cents a thousand ; throw that all together and it makes .?6.25 ; taking that from
$7.80 it leaves 61.55. Now, then, that gives you an answer to the question whether
the industry is able to pay more, is able to increase the cost of manufacture. Now, if
you take the 9.3 Japanese that we at present use in the Hastings mill and replace them
with white labour, it would necessitate an increase in the cost of production of $93 a
day ; if you divide that by the amount produced per day it will raise the cost of pro-
duction on the average 70 cents per thousand feet. Now, there is no mill in British
Columbia that under present conditions could afford to increase the cost of production
70 cents per thousand feet and operate successfully tinancially.

Q. You have not given us the cost of the management of the mill ', — A. Well, I am
not going to give away our business to the public.

Q. ^^'hat kinil of lumber was that ? — A. It is an ordinary merchantable cargo of
lumber.

I am not at liberty to state the name and authority <.)f that letter. It is a private
letter. The writer cannot be obtained to give evidence : he is not in the country. I
will show it to the Commissioners and convince you that it is a bona fide lettei'. It is
from a perfectly well-known man, from a real purchaser, and the (juality of timber is the
ordinary timber sold in the market, not a low quality, not at all. We cut a higher
grade as well. We cut the lower grade also. It is piled up in our yards and we cannot
get rid of it.

(The letter referred to was shown to the Commissioners.)

We ship lumber as far east as Nova Scotia, and we can only ship the better class,
the higher grades, as it is the only lumber that we can afford to pay freight on for the
east. There one of the great competitors that we have is the pitch pine that ctinies from
the Southern States, which is manufactured by the aid of cheap labour of the negroes in
Georgia and Carolina. We have to pay §20 a thousand between here and the eastern
provinces, and we have got to compete with that lumber ]>roduced in the east by labour
secured at very low wages. If we send to South Africa or Australia we are brought
into competition with lumber from the Baltic, manufactured under much more favourable
conditions as to cost than we can possibly command. In Sweden or Norway they pay a
sawyer 4 kroner a day, equal to $1.05, the ordinary labour 54 cents. These figures I
got from a Norwegian captain. A man with a family can live very comfortably there
on from 40 to 54 cents a da)-. Then, again, I see in the mercantile reports that from
the Baltic to Melbourne a vessel will get 65 shillings per thousand feet. In South
Africa we will be on something like equal terms.

I think we exported out of the province last year about thirty million feet, including
what went east, and exported out of the country twenty -four million feet. It may be a
coincidence and nothing more, but you will find that the mills employing the largest
number of orientals did the biggest export ti-ade. We had to refuse business continually
last year because the price offered was too low for us to sell our lumber. I do not think
the oriental question is a matter of sentiment at all, it is a matter of interest. In order
to employ a large number of whites we ha\e to employ a large proportion of cheap labour
wherever it comes from, whether white, black or yellow. Oui' principal foreign markets
are Europe, Australia, China, Chili, Peru and Africa. For the last year there has been
very little business done with Africa. There is a very weak demand in the foreign
markets at the present time. The producing capacity of the oldest lumber mills to-day
is largely in excess of the demand.

Principally rough lumber is sliipped to China. The trade is increasing with Japan.
The Japanese are going into ship-building and they are importing sizes of lumber that
they cannot get anywhere else but on this coast. Their trade is well worth cultivating

106 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION^

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

There is less competition in China and Japan than in any of the other countries. The
only competition we have there is with our frieu<ls on Puget Sound. They .ship more
than we do. The things that enter into the cost of production of lumber to-dav we pay
higher for here. We pay higher for all mill supplies. All our supplies to oui- camps
we pay more for. We have railroads with regular locomotives on regular standard track,
and we use what are called donkeys for hauling out timber bv a wire rope on a drum,
using for that puipose steam power. At one camp we had four and a half miles of rail-
road, at another we had three miles. These rails are being lifted up and put into other
places as the camp is worked out. We have all the modern means at our conunand,
both for getting out logs and for manufacturing lumber at the mill. Our waste of
lumber is not greater than on the other side. They get their supplies cheaper and they
have a market for all they produce, which we have not, which makes a very material
difference.

I do not think there is a mill in British Columbia as advantageou.sly situated as
ours ; at the present time we have acce.ss to the sea, and we have good railway communi-
cation. The railway runs into the vard.

I do not agree with Mr. Palmer's statement that he would be able to continue
bu.siness e^en if they hatl to emplov white labour exclusivelv.

The question of freight rates is an intiicat-e one. A verv important matter that is
taken into consideration by vessels coming from the Baltic, is, that if there is a possibilitv
of securing a return cargo to Europe they will take a very low rate to bring bnnber.

The head offices for vessels are in San Francisco and thev work it up as against
British Columbia. If a man wants to load a vessel in British Columbia he would want
one shilling and threepence to two shillings and sixpence more than he would want on
the other side. The only remedy that I can see for that is bv the government facilitating
the building of vessels on our own side. There is a subsidy paid by the United States,
a bonus for their vessels. I think it is one and a half per ton for the first 1,500 miles,
and one per ton for each additional 1 00 miles ; that is on the registered tonnage.

You say how did we compete with the Americans in the years gone by. There is
this difference in the freight and the dutv and other things that act against us that we
cannot get the same prices for the lumber. The mills over there have come to some
arrangement between themsehes as to prices.

Q. Does the Canadian Pacific Railwav gi^e as low rates to the east as those given
by the American railroads to the mills on the Sound ? — A. I think thev do to given
points.

We are barely living now, barelv making a profit. When there was excitement in
Vancouver about the Chinese and the men objected to them, we got white cooks in the
camp at English Bay, and in a few days the men ran them out.

If it did not increase the cost of production we would rather have white men. I
do not approve of these people coming in here as citizens. I would prefer to see our
country peopled by our own race, from a national standpoint.

If you want to know my opinion from a political aspect I say personally I should
rather prefer to have white men as citizens. I would not like to see the Chinese and
Japanese obtain the franchise. I would not like to see our country governed by them.
I should not like to see an}' further immigration of them to enter into competition with
white men. They could not adapt themselves to our political economy. From the
standpoint of sentiment I would prefer our people to the orientals.

Q. Do you think there would be an increase of wages if there was practical exclu-
sion,— increase of wages to the Chinese and Japanese themselves ? — A. I do not think
immediately, but I think it would have that result before very long. I do not think it
would be brought about immediately, but as the number gradually decreased and there
were no more coming in, those here would ask for more wages.

I have objection to the Chinese and Japanese becoming citizens. I would prefer if
it were possible to have all the work done by white labour, by our own people. I should
not like to see the Chinese assimilate. That would not apply possibly with equal force
to the Japanese.

ox CHIXESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 107

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

I really think the mill men in British Columbia would be perfectly willing to com-
pete with United States if our lumber was permitteil to go in there as their lumber is
permitted to eome in here.

There has always been an objection from the earliest time in British Columbia to
the Chinese. People do not like them ; that is the amount of it. The Japanese do
assimilate to a greater extent than the Chinese.

I produce a statement of shipments of lumber from British Columbia and Puget
Sound to the various points mentioned in it. It is made up from the figures in the
Trades Journal, which I think will be found to be correct. I may say the markets in
Sandwich Islands are not included in that, and the California market shipments, which
would increase it a great deal more.

John G. Woods, superintendent of the Moodyville Sawmill Company, Vancouver,
says : We employ 110 men, 60 whites and about 10 Chinese and 40 Japanese. We pay
whites $.30,S40 or §-50 and up to .f 140 for foremen per month ; Japanese 90 cents a day
and their board, and from that up to f 1.2.5 a day. Their board by the year costs 3.3
cents per day per man.

Five or six of the Chinese are engaged as cooks and in gardening, the other five
Chinese are at contract work, doing the lathwork and the pickets. They work the
machine just as well as whites. We have a Japanese edger man, and the Japanese run
the trimmers ; formerly that work was done by white men. When Japanese leave we
put on white men. There is no absolute rule about having whites or Japanese to do
the work. I think that is all. Japanese will do as much work as whites at less wages.

I see no reason why the Japanese will not be able to do any work a white man can
do where cleverness is required.

I would veiy much prefer white men if the conditions were equal. Sometimes the
•Japanese leave us ; during the fishing season they will pull out and leave us short-
handed.

I have not gone into the question of immigration sufficiently to gi\^e you an opinion
worth anything. To my mind there is no fear of the Japanese encroaching on the
industry and getting the work from the white men. I think their proportion is about
right now. I do not think there is any fear whatever of the lumber industry going
into the hands of the Japanese. We would shut the mill down before that came about.
The Japanese are only engaged in the lower class of labour, just the cheap labour.
There are not many white men hunting for work who want to work. If we had not
Chinese I guess we could fill all the positions in the mill with white men, we could get
them here.

Q. Why not get them now ? — A. Because we could not run the mill, unless we
could do it and lose money. For positions filled by Japanese at $1.25 a day we would
have to pay a white man perhaps $1-5 a month more.

I think if we had to pay .$750 a month more than now, the mill would be shut
down, or the white men would have to scale down their wages.

The price of logs eiglit or nine vears ago was just about the same as they are now.

For the lastfive years the Moodyville Mill has just about held level without the owners
getting one cent of interest. Previous to that the mill lost largely. It is not in as
good a position for the foreign trade as the Hastings Mill, because they have local trade
as well as foreign trade. We work for the foreign trade. There are about forty cargo
mills on the coast.

It may be here noted that the three witnesses above referred to represent eighty-
one and a half millions of the total export of eighty -four millions. The further evidence
bearing upon this branch of the trade is very short. The evidence of the witnesses here
quoted will be given at greater length when we come to deal with the local and eastern
trade.

Robert Jardine, local manager of the Royal City Planing Mills, New Westminster,
says : There are a great many export mills on the Sound. The lumber from those
mills, not suitable for the foreign market, is disposed of in California, Hawaii and
Alaska. From the reports from there I understand they are making money : making
good profit all along the line. We could produce as cheaply in this country if there was

108 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

no tariff entering into the cost of production. Our timber is as easily gotten out as it
is on the other side. I would prefer to see the Americans throw down their tariff wall ;
that would be more important than the difference in the cost of production.

Q. If that condition prevailed would you be able to dispense with oriental labour ;
that is if you were put on the same footing as American lumbermen ? — A. If we had
white people here to fill their places, no doubt it would have a tendency in that
direction.

As to the export business, we have shipped a few cargoes from here. At the
present time we employ 266 men in the mill, shingle mill, factory, steamboats and
logging camps, and in the machine shop and sash and door factory, 180 white, 57
Chinese and 29 Japanese. We find white men more adapted for the work in the woods.
Chinese and Japanese have never been employed in the mills in what you call skilled
labour, except as shingle sawyers and packers. We employ Chinese in packing shingles
exclusively.

Henry Depencier, manager of the Northern Pacific Lumber Company, situated at
Barnet, nine miles up the Inlet from Vancouver, says : We employ 9 1 men at present,
of whom 4-5 are white and 46 Japanese. We do not emplo)- Chinese ; we never em-
ployed them. I think two good white men will do as much work in a day as three
Japanese will do. I prefer the white men. I have been engaged in business 34 years,
formerly in the Ottawa Valley.

We have shipped two vessel loads to Australia, and we have shipped some lumber
to Ontario and some to Quebec ; they come to us for lumber they cannot get there. I
am manager for the Maclaren Ross Lumber Company on the Fraser River. It has a
capacity of 150,000 feet a day. It only ran for a few months and put out a few cargoes.
It was shut down because the market was not good, and they thought they could not
run it profitably.

Q. Not even with Chinese or Japanese labour? — A. I don't think they could
at all.

Q. It was not the labour question at all ? — A. Not at all.

J. A. Say ward, of the Sayvvard Lumber Mills, Victoria, says : Our market is prin-
cipally local. We have exported lumber to Australia, China, Japan, Great Britain and
Scandinavia. We are in competition with the United States in all the jilaces I have
mentioned. We have not continued shijiping, because we have enough trade at home.

Andrew Haslam, Mill owner of Nanaimo, says : If no more Chinese or Japanese
were permitted to come in I do not think it would cause any injury to my own business
individually ; as 1 am situated now it would not cause me anv injury I think. If I had
to go into the foreign trade and had to compete with the low wages of other countries
it might hamper me. I think we have enough of Chinese here now. As far as my
knowledge goes as to other industries in the province, I think they could get all the
labour they required foi- any length of time, but they will be better able to speak for
themselves ; but the largest exporter of lumber I find is not in favour of allowing any
more of the Chinese to come in. There is enough here to supply all demands for some
time to come. I think I am in touch with the other lumbermen in the country. I
think I know the conditions under which they do their business. I do not think it can
be considei'ed a profitable business at the present time ; there is no particular reason
but the dullness of trade. I have tried to make clear what reasims I have ; the
increased cost of evei-ything that comes into the production of lumber, and apart- from
that is the excessively high freights. Freights from British Columbia to any foreign
port are very high, and in addition to the general high freights there is a specific charge
made on lumber from every part of British Columbia of sixty cents per thousand feet of
lumber, giving the Puget Sound men an advantage to that extent. The ship owners
contend that the harbour dues and the pilotage and customs dues are higlier in British
Columbia than they are on Puget Sound, and that it is worth .sixty cents per thousand
to make the freights equal to the ship owners. They have a large field of their own for
lumber ; they have a large number of vessels of their own, and a great many of the
charters are made through San Francisco people, and I have understood and I believe
it is a fact that our dues are higher, and to start with, we must pay sixty cents more per

ox CfflXESf AXD JAPAXESE IMillGRA TIOX 109

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

thousand in order to get a vessel at all. Apparently the shippers on Puget Sound con-
trol the shipping at present. There is an attempt to blame the people of Bi-itish
Columbia that the charges are higher than on Puget .Sound. Tliere is a great deal of
lumber at the present time cannot be shipped at all, owing to the excessive freight rates.

If all the mills employed exclusively white labour at the present rate of wages I do
not believe there would be a cargo shipped out of British Columbia profitably in a year.
With a foreign trade, where you are competing with the lumber and the cheap compe-
tition of other countries, of course you are governed by the cost in those countries. If
we are allowed an open market to purchase our supplies it would be even more effective
than a duty upon American lumber. If they allowed me to have the articles in free of
duty I will guarentee to employ nobody but white men about my mill and in mv camp.

John V. Cook says : I was tally man and inspector in the Hastings jNIill, of which
Mr. Alexander is manager, up to last Saturday. Ha\e been thirty years in the lumber
business, eleven years in this country and piior thereto in the proWnce of Quebec. I
have worked seven years at the Hastings Mill. The Japanese have increased at the
Hastings Mill. The Chinese and Japanese take the place of white labour. There
would be sufficient white labour to replace the Japanese and Chinese. I judge this
from the amount of white labour I see applying at the Hastings Mill and refused. I
have seen as many as ten or fifteen a day apply, and some days only one or two for
common labour, more especially during the last eighteen months, but more or less all
the time I was there. The last two or three days before I left they applied to the mill
foreman. There are a great many white labourers unemployed.

I favour further restriction of the Chinese and Japanese. Mv idea is the Japanese
are more dangerous to the white man than Chinese in the lumber business. I don't
think the ."SI 00 prevents the Chinese from coming in very much. I would exclude more
coming in of the working class, because I think we have enough white labour to do the
work they are doing. If we had not enough I would still exclude them. I would try
to get white labour from other countries. I don't think they are a benefit to the
country. I would not like to see the Japanese and Chinese mix with the whites. As
far as I can see it is not true that mills cannot run without cheap labour. I tliink the
mills can run altogether with white people. You can employ .Japanese at §1 and whites
at !§1..50 a day. I think sufficient whites at $1.50 could be employed and the difference
in work would compensate a great 'deal. Two whites will do as much as three Japanese,
or perhaps four, in handling lumber. I have heard it said that if they did not employ
Japanese, and they left the country, the whites would get saucy and go on strike, or
something of that kind ; that is what some of the mil] men told me. I had nothing to
do ■nith engaging the men. They came to me first ; I was tally man and handy to men
coming into the mill, and I sent them on to the foreman. There seems to be a good
many idle men. For two months in the summer not so many come for a job.

I was in the mill business on my own account in the province of Quebec. I had a
large experience. I paid from ijl to .SLID a day.

From what I can figure out, from their own admissions, they must have considerable
of a profit ; I refer to the statement of Mr. Alexander. I read the account that Mr.
Alexander gave us to the cost of logs got out for the Hastings Mill ; that amounted to
§6.2-5 a thousand. Then Mr. Alexander went on to show, to figure up the cost of pro-
duction, and the whole amounted to something like $7.80 a thousand. He figured that
the margin between ■'16.2.5 and that was very small, but he forgot to say he would get
25 cents a thousand from the government rebate. I know that up to the first of the
year they got a rebate of 25 cents a thousand from the government. Some say they
get it now, and some say they do not. That is what I understand. I simply take Mr.
Alexander's figures, what he is reported to have said, and draw \xiy conclusions from
that. At the same time, when he read from a letter to the Commission something
about §7.80 being offered by some firm on the other side for a cargo of lumber, he for-
got to tell you that that was for the cheapest kind of lumber in the cargo, and at the
same time there would be a large (juantity shipped in that cargo that would bring over
820 a thousand. They would be well paid for sawing, that is, with a rebate. He
figured that the logs cost him $6.25, now you can figure it out for youi'self ; it is a vei-y

110 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSWX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

easy calculation. That would leave a margin of ."iL^O on that particular class of lumber,
which is the lowest class of merchantable lumber. Now, the selected lumber he would
get a much higher price for, and there is a cpiality of lumber that is sujierior to what is
called ' selected lumber,' and he would get a still higher price for that. I am figuring
on what you would get for the lowest class of lumber : the margin on that would be as
I say. SI. 80. As to the cost of cutting the log into lumber, I wovild say it costs about
§1.10 from the time you take the logs into the mill and have it cut into lumber and put
on board the ship ; that would leave a margin of profit on the lowest class of lumber of
70 cents a thousand feet : that would be the profit on the lowest class of lumber put out
by the Hastings mill. In vessels loading at the Mills I understand the captain makes a
bargain with the stevedores for loading and he pays for the loading. The lumber is sup-
posed to be taken on the wharf ; it goes right out of the mill on to the wharf. If there
is no vessel there to load, the lumber is piled on the wharf. They ship merchantable,
select, and clear lumber — three classes of lumber. Merchantable is sound rough lumber,
sound knots ; in merchantable lumber some few knots are allowed and perhaps a little
sap and a little waney. In select lumber but \ery few knots are allowed, and no sap is
allowed and no wanev. Clear lumber is lumber that has no knots and is not affected
by sap in any way. Thev ship lumber from 16 to 40 feet in length, sometimes under.
Thev would not ship as short as 6 feet. They would not ship much short lumber in a
year, that is for the foreign trade. There might be a hundred thousand feet of lumber
shipped, in lengths of from 6 to 8 feet, and then there would be quite a quantity shipped
in lengths of from 12 to 15 feet ; most ships take a good deal of that. The most of the
lumber shipped would be merchantable lumber, the next would be select lumber, and
the smallest quantity would be clear lumber, and the prices would go up accordingly. I
should say there would be 88 a thousand difference between merchantable and select
lumber. I have allowed quite enough in §1.10 for labour and cutting; I did not figm-e
on the cost of machineiy separately. The proportion for repairs would be so small I
did not figure on that. There is a proportion to be charged for wear and tear of the
machinery, and so on, but in the working of a large mill like the Hastings Mill that
proportion is very small.

As to interest on the money invested, the 81. 10 ought to coverall that, and there is
the cost of office work and management so-called, all that has to be taken into account to
get at the cost of production of the lumber ready for shipment. The Company get their
logs as cheap as any other Company, they run camps of their own, they run their own
stores, have their own tow boats, and everything else. I made out the price of the
outside prices given by Mr. Alexander. I think they can be taken as very outside figures
at that ; that is, they are working figures, no mistake about that. There is towage to
be added perhaps. They have insurance. I think 70 cents is too much to cover
incidentals in what we call rough lumber. He figures, if he did not employ Japanese,
on an increase in the sawing of his lumber of 70 cents, I cannot see how he can possibly
make that out. He admits he employs 93 Japanese at an average of 81. Another mill
man has admitted that two wlute men do as much as three Japanese on an average.
We will replace those 93 Japanese with 70 white men at 81.50 a day, the amount would
be 8105. Tlie difference between 93 Japanese at 81 and the 70 white men at 81.50 a
day would be 812. The mill turns out 140,000 feet a day, so my figuring out is, if he
employs white men he would only raise the cost at the outside, 10 cents a thousand
feet. There should be no off days. That would include accidents that are not paid for
bv the insurance. The mill was idle by reason of fire once for nine months.

As to the lowest grade of lumber, I know what the others are sold for, I know of
another cargo of lumber where the average price was 88.50 for 16 to 24 feet lengths of
rough lumber. I do not wish to give you anything but what you can rely on. From
16 to 32 feet, 88.75, from 33 to 40 feet 89.25," that was all merchantable lumber. Select
lumber in that cargo was 812. There was no clear lumber in that. That was in the
month of March last month. That is not hearsay, I saw the figures. That was the
Moodyville Sawmill Company, I tallied the sliip. It was for the foreign market and
was shipped on board the vessel. The price of lumber does not vary very much in the local
market, it may vary a good deal in the foi'eign market. I have not seen the prices of

ON GHINtlSE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 111

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

any other cargo. I tallied the ship in the month of March. I cannot give you the
name of the ship just now. I expect to work at some of the mills again, and perhaps
if I get too particular I will not get a job.

Q. What was the name of the ship? — A. The Tregethoff I think. The cargo
was for South America.

I did not quit the mill of my own accord. I had some misunderstanding with the
mill foreman, not with regard to wages or with regard to this matter.

Q. Although you tallied the quantities of lumber put on the ship, how did you
know the prices % — A. I saw the prices after I tallied the ship. I made up a statement
in the book. Tlie prices are put down in the book, and the quantities multiplied by the
prices, the whole was carried out in the book. 1 have that book in my possession all
the time. The bookkeeper puts the prices in these.

I worked myself in the Royal Cit}' Mill eleven years ago, trucking around the yard,
piling lumber, trimming, and all kinds of roustabout work, and I got §47 a month.

Q,. The prices you gave for the cargo shipped on the Tretjethnff, was that free on
board I — A. I do not know anything about that. I gave you the prices as I got them
from the bookkeeper. 1 do not know whether the mill had to pa}' for the loading or not.
The cost of loading comes out of the freight ; as a rule the loading comes out of the
freight.

Q. What percentage is culled ? — A. We do not send culls to the yard, but we make
fire wood out of the culls.

Q. What percentage out of the 140,000 feet would be culls'? — A. Very small ; we
are not supposed to put culls in that. Were "we to put in the culls it would make a
great diiference. The log measurement or the measurement as it comes from the saw
would tally about 160,000 feet ; 140,000 feet of that would be what we could sell as
sawn lumber of dili'erent grades and qualities ; sometimes there would be 20,000 feet to
go to the wood pile and sometimes less. I cannot very well saj^ the percentage. Five per
cent of the 140,000 would be 7,000 ; well, perhaps that would be a fair estimate. The
price of culls is from $3 to $4 a thousand. They cut the culls into firewood and sell the
firewood at .fl a cord. I do not think the mill men are speaking by the truth.

To Mr. Cassidy :

Q. And so you do not believe Mr. Alexander's evidence 1 — A. I think he gave it
in his own favour. I do not say Mr. Alexander lied by any means.

Chairman — Mr. Alexander did not favour us with any information as to what he
sold at.

A. Mr. Alexander puts it in the best light that he possibly could for the lumber
interest ; he said they were not able to get along without employing a certain amount
of cheap labour in the mill — oriental labour. My idea is that we can do very
well without the oriental labour, and make a good profit at the same time.

Mr. Cassidy — Your idea was Mr. Alexander was wrong ? — A. Yes.

Q. And that he did not know his own business, and that he was coming here and
was telling us something that was not so '? — A. Will you please be good enough not to
put words into my mouth ; my idea is we can get along very well without oriental
labour.

Q. Would you like to put it, he came here and was disingenuous and did not know
his own business ? — A. What I say is, you have the figures, and figuring in the way I
have done, which is plain I think to you, we could do without oriental labour.

I have never tried running a mill of my own in this countrj^ ; I had nothing to do
with the management of the business at the Hastings Mill.

Q. Do you mean to say you made a calculation of the whole cargo ? — A. That was
a very easy thing to do ; there were so nianv thousand feet of 16 to 24 at such a price,
so many thousand at 26 to 32 at such another price, and so man}' thousand feet at 33
to 40 at such a higher price.

Q. And you made a calculation as to what was the whole amount ? — A. I simply
put the figures in the book as I was instructed to do. I did not do any more than I
was obliged to.

112 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. You did not actu;illv calculate what the price of the wliole cargo was ^ — A. No.

Q. The price of different kinds of lumber vary a good deal, and the value of the
cargo will vary a good deal according to the kind of lumber that it is composed of ? —
A. Certainly ; part of the cargo generally sells a little higher than the merchantable
lumber. If it is cut to particular sizes it will sell a little higher than a general cargo
would.

I had a copy of the oi-der : the bookkeeper gave me a copy of the order ; the prices
were not on it ; the prices were put on by the bookkeeper, and I had to make up a state-
ment that the difterent qualities of lumber were taken into the ship. There were cer-
tain sizes in the specifications ; when I would fill a certain size I put it into the book
imtil the whole shipment was completed.

I do not know whether there was any discount ; I should judge there would be.
If I read Mr. Alexander's evidence aright, in the $7.80 there would be a discount of 2^
per cent and '2i, per cent. So I suppose the same thing would be carried out over
there.

In the Hastings Mill the Japanese run the wood-saws. In the old mill there was
not a Japanese upstairs outside the stampers, unless a shortage of white men. In the
new mill a certain number of Japanese are employed. Tliere used to be five white
markers, now theie are three Japanese markers. The Japanese can with experience
lun the big saw. I think in time they will employ them in higher positions. The Japanese
instead of boys, being employes, our young men have not got the chance to learn. In
the east boys are taken into the mill ; they start in as boj^s and become engineers,
foremen, sawyers and the like. In father's mills the boys started at wheeling sawdust
and worked up. The Japanese tend to prevent that class of labour from coming in to
the coast. I have advised them not to come. I have written to at least a dozen in the
last two years not to come, because Chinese and Japanese are here.

There is no lull in the industry except that they could not get ships. I think they
make a profit. They may sell a little cheaper than local mills. I think the additional
trade, if whites were employed, would compen.sate for all loss. There is no benefit to me
by my evidence rather the contrary. I will take my chances. These people do not
compete with me. I have eleven children, seven boys. I think the outlook is gloom}'
for my boys. I have no ill-feeling against these companies. I suppose you may say I
was dismissed last Monday.

I think thejf can do without Japanese labour. I am in a p( sition to judge. I
don't merely think ; I am sure I can replace 93 Japanese with 70 white men. If he
gives me two days I will put up security that I will get 70 white men at $1.50 a day to
clo the work of 93 Japanese. I tally ; I see that the orders are filled, and that it is
properly graded. Mr. Alexander's offer that he mentioned was a very cheap offer.

The Japanese have not families. They rent a house, and a whole lot of them live
together.

I think the logs do not cost any more today on account of using a different scale
than when they paid less for the logs. The price of lumber to-day is higher than for-
merly in the local market. I have seen rough lumber sold at .$6 and $6.50, now it is
$9 per thousand. Dressed lumber sells for all prices, the cheapest is $10 to $12 up to
$20 and $22.50. Forty per cent goes to the ship, sixty per cent goes to the yard.
Sixty per cent of the sixty per cent goes to the interior. 'The whole of this is finished
lumber that goes to the interior. The remaining forty per cent of the sixty is not
finished.

It was a private dispute between the foreman and myself that caused mj' dismissal.

Robert James Skinner, Timber Inspector for the province of British Columbia,
says : I think the occasion of the depression that took place in the lumber industry in
1891 was the first thing that reduced the rates of wages for the production of bolts and
things of that sort ; not so much the depression in the country, as the fact that the
foreign market for our products dropped away to a very low rate.

Q. Does the foreign market control the prices in the local market 1 — A. In a way,
yes. When the foreign market is good the effect is to raise the value of the logs in the
hands of the different logging companies. It creates a demand for them, and therefore

Oy CHINESE A y D J A PA NESE IMMIGRA TION 1 1 3

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

the prices raise. The mills here then have to pay t\)r tlie logs. Of course, increased
demand creates better prices, and as the himber put on board ship repre.sents a great
deal of labour, it is sjireading a great deal more money through the indu.stry generally.
With foreign competition lumber has to be put on board the shi]) at a low rate.

I do not know of a single mill that is making mone_v. They cannot compete I
think with Puget Sound Mills and Baltic Mills with tliat cheap labour. The shipping of
Baltic timber affects the market in Australia, South Africa and Europe. I think the
labour conditions in the Baltic have something to do with it, and freight rates also.

The chief market for British Columbia lumber is Great Britain I think, and
Australia comes next. Probably from one-sixth to one-fifth of our total export is to
China. It has not improved lately. It was improving up to the time of the present
disturbance over there. The Japanese trade is not much yet. I think the possibilities
for the lumber trade in China would be very favourable as soon as peace is declared. To
China I think the proportion of planed lumber is small.

I do not think the mills -ixith their present business can exist, can live, if they are
put to any further expense in the cost of manufacture. I am in favour of the exclusion
of Chinese and Japanese personally. From an individual point of view I am of opinion
that it would be the best thing for the country, and now is the best time I think to
introduce it ; I mean total prohibition, for both Chinese and Japanese. I am not pre-
pared to say that is the best move for the general prosperity of the country, but that is
my opinion. At the same time I want to saj' there are people of our own race in the
country to do that work, the work the Chinese and Japanese do, and there are people
from European countries who would do that work, who will ultimately become British
subjects and good citizens of our country. The contingency of the industries closing
down by being compelled to employ white labour is too remote to be considered here.
To exclude the Japanese and Chinese altogether I judge would be the best thing for the
province. Matters would soon adjust themselves to the new condition of things. I
think it would be a great pity to go so far as to close the industries down ; it would be
a dangerous risk, but as I say, that contingency is a very remote one. There are two
sides to the question. The whole question resolves itself I think as to the difference
between employer and employee as to the rate of wages to be paid. It is largely a wage
question.

I do not see how in doing the lumber business the price of wages, or rather the price
of work is going up, unless at the same time you can induce people in other parts of the
world to pay you more for your lumber. There has been a great change in the market
abroad within the last eight or ten years. You will remember there was a great financial
panic in Australia, and that business to the extent of something like one hundred and
twenty million pounds sterling failed. That acted on our industries here very severely
and we have not yet recovered from that. Logs are higher than they were in 1891 and
1892 ; the facilities for putting the logs in the water are not so many as they were
then. I think the difference between the price of logs and the price of lumber is narrower
now than it was then.

Ever since March, 1888, rebates on the roj'alty have been allowed. Last session
the rebates were removed ; that is the condition of affairs now ; rebates are not payable
on exported lumber since the 1st of January, this year. The rebate was one-half of the
royalty paid, providing the timber had been shipped beycmd the limits of the province.
It was intended to encourage the export trade, granted by the legislature in Victoria.

AMERICAN EVIDENCE.

W. Sherman, of the Bellingham Bay Improvement Company, Washington, stated :
We employ about .3.50 men ; no Chinese or Japanese. We export lumber to South
America, Australia, Hong Kong and Japan, and also ship to San Francisco, and east of
the Rockies. The average wage paid to unskilled labour is from $1.75 to $'i per day,
and to skilled labour up to S-i a day ; average $2.50 to $3.75. There is no difficulty in
getting labour. We buv our logs. There are no Chinese or Japanese employed on the
Bellingham Baj' and British Columbia Railway.
54—8

114 REPOFxT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

A. S. Martin, secretary of tlie Puget Sound Sawmill and Shingle Company, Fair-
haven, Washington, says : Our principal product is dressed lumber ; our market the
middle states : none sold in Canada. We employ 265 hands. We get out our own
logs. We have 110 employed in logging camps. We never employed Chinese or
Japanese. Chinese and Japanese are not generally employed on Puget Sound, only at
one mill, at Port Blakeley.

Minimum wages for unskilled labour is 81.50 per diem : there are only about ten
men working here for that wage. At present 82 is our minimum. Wages run up to
§5 and 86 ; average S3.3.3A per diem. The lumber mills at Puget Sound exporting are :
the St. Paul and Tacoma Lumber Company, of Tacoma : the Port Blakeley Mill Com-
panv : Pope it Talbot, of Port Gamble : Bellingham Bay Company ; the Tacoma Mill
Company, of Tacoma. These mills practically do all the export business. Tliey export
principally rough lumber.

The sentiment here is opposed to both Chinese and Japanese. If the matter were
put to a popular vote, not a Chinaman or Japanese woidd be allowed in town. There
are no Japanese here. There are not fifty Chinese in the county outside the canneries.

Mr. Stetson, a partner in the Stetson and Post Mill Company of Seattle, who is
engaged in the lumber business in that city, says : We employ altogether 125 men ; we
get all the men we want ; we employ no Chinese or Japanese, and have not employed
them within the last 15 years.

The a\erage wage paid is S2 a day for unskilled labour ; it ranges from 81.75 to
$2.25 and 82.50. Sawyers are paid from 83.50 to 84 a day.

The question of the abrogation of the Exclusion Law never comes up. The question
is settled. We were in business here when the Exclusion Law came into force. No
industry has ceased because of it that I know, but I can hardly answer the question off-
hand, because the law has been in force, and its action has passed out of recollection.
I do not remember it having any effect. I know of no desire on the part of business
men or on the part of men having capital invested in different industries to abrogate
the law so far as regards the Chinese. Our chief market is at home ; we do not export
a great deal of lumber to foreign markets.

The Port Blakeley Company, I understand, employ a great number of Japanese in
and about their mill. I have a natural preference for our o^vn people. We buy all our
machinery here in the city.

William H. Perry, assistant general manager of Moran Brothers, Seattle, said :
We operate a sawmill in connection with our plant, and employ about one hundred men
in our lumbering department . We do not now and never have employed either Chinese
or Japanese. Our trade is principally local.

We pay a minimum wage of 82 a day. Men who operate the planers are to a
certain degree skilled labour; we pay them 82.25,82.50 and 82.75 a day. Neither
Chinese nor Japanese labour is employed in the lumber mills in the city of Seattle or in
the neighbourhood to my knowledge. We find we have to compete, however, with mills
where they do employ Chinese and Japanese labour, at Port Blakely, twelve miles across
the Sound — the largest mill on the west coast.

Q. Is there any desire among what may be called the capitalistic interest to
abrogate the Exclusion Law ? — A. I think they are satisfied with it and desire it to
continue.

The emplo\-ing class in this district are in favour of Chinese exclusion as a rule,
although there are some small sections where they might favour the Chinese, where they
think they require low-priced labour, some men who think they might get along better
with low-priced labour, but I think the number is very small.

The feeling in the city and in the state is overwhelmingly in favour of the exclusion
iif the Chinese. They are not considered a desirable element in the community, for the
reason that they do not and will not assimilate with us, and I do not think it would be
desirable if they would assimilate. Thej- do not take any interest whatever in our laws
or institutions.

If you had to choose between an immigration of the one or the other, I would
prefer the Chinese, that is if it was immigration of the better class of Chinese ; but

ON- CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 115

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

taking the class (if the two races that come here, I would prefer the Japanese ; we find
them inclined to follow our methods and customs, and become good citizens, anrl take an
interest in our attairs, and as a rule they are law-abiding. We find that the Japanese
whom we have here, try to build up trade relations between this country and their own.
The same objection applies to the labouring class of the Japanese that applies to the
labouring class of the Chinese. We have not had many Japanese labourers in the city,
and I do not know much about them. The Exclusion Act was in 189-t ; the high tax
was in 1884 ; the last Act became law in 1894. I do not believe it was felt. I do not
believe it was noticed. I do not believe that one per cent of our business community
knew when it became efl^ective. Of course there had been years of preparation for
it — a high head tax. The suggestion was then made that total exclusion would come in
time.

Theodore Ludgate, lumberman, of Seattle, says : I have been engaged in the
lumbering business here about a year. I came from Peterborough, Ontario. I employ
140 men in my mill, exclusive of teamsters ; in all from 1.50 to 1.55. I buy my logs in
the open market. I do not employ either Chinese or Japanese. The lowest wage we
pay is .*1.75 a day to roustabouts, men who are here tt) day and are to be found some
place else next week. We pay $2 a da}- to a great many ; $1.75 a day is our cheapest
labour, and it runs from that up to 85 a day. The filers get §5 a day, the planer fore-
men get $3.50 a day, and planer feeders $'2.50 a day.

Q. Do any of the mills with whom you come into competition employ either Chinese
or Japanese labour '? — A. Not in the city or its neighbourhood ; the only mill emjjloying
Japanese is the Port Blakely Mill, nine or ten miles across the Sound from here. Their
trade is very largel)', if not almost entirely, foreign. We export very little. Our trade
is chiefly local.

It was my intention at one time to locate on the Canadian side and to employ
white labour exclusively. In fact, in order to get at work up there, and get the
position we wanted for our lumbering, we offered to give a bond that we would not
employ either Chinese or Japanese, either in the mill or outside the mill, in our business.
I was quite willing to go into competition with the lumber mills already established
there and employ white labour altogether. I inquired into the condition of the lumber-
ing industry there, spent a good deal of time looking it over, and I was satisfied I could
carry on lumbering there without emplopng either Chinese or Japanese. As I said, I
spent a good deal of time in inquiring into the condition of trade, as to the procuring
of logs, as to the price of machinery and the cost of labour, and I came to the con-
clusion I could carry on the lumber business there profitably, emplojing exclusively
white labour. If I were building a mill there to-day I would not be afraid to employ
all white men and come into competition with the mills where they employ Japanese
and Chinese. That is how I regard white labour ; that it is the best, and in the end
comes the cheapest.

The Chinese and Japanese are not desired here at all. I think if the conditions
here were as extreme as they are on the Pacific coast of British Columbia to-day, there
would soon be a remedy applied, and these people would be shut out, and white people
as citizens of the country would have the jirotection that they ought to have. Public
sentiment only requires to be wakened up to have this thing rectified. There is every-
thing in favour of the lumbering industry being carried on in British Columbia profitably
without the aid of Chinese or Japanese.

I do not want to go into much conflict with the people engaged in the lumbering
industrj' up there. Of course, not having carried on operations there, it is possible
there might be some obstacle that would be experienced that to a man who had no
experience in active operations on the ground would not at first be apparent, but apart
from that I am perfectly satisfied if I had a good mill up there to-morrow, I would not
be afraid to compete with those already in the business in British Columbia. Lots of
mills are being run to-day by labour of the Chinese and Japanese, which is supposed to
be cheap labour — and I question if it is cheap labour — that should be run by steam.
Some of the mills have been equipped with machinery in years past and modern
machinery has got ahead of them. I would not be afraid to go there and equip a mill
54— 8i ''

116 REPORT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

with up-to-date machinery and make a profit, and a good jirofit, out of lumbering
operations, and in operating employ only white labour, and pay them good wages. I
am a Briti.sh subject.

I have seen all the mills up there ; I have been through most of them. The Hast-
ings Mill was in process of construction last time I saw it. The Brunette sawmill in
New Westminster is a fairly goorl mill. Prior to the tire in the Hastings Mill I thought
the Chemainus the best mill in British Columbia.

Q. Most of the mills up there are in pretty fair shape to do work ? — A. I do not
think they are.

We have done a little export business right along ; as soon as we get rightly into
shape we can do a good deal more. We find it very good. I am speaking of the export
business to Hong Kong and Japan. Vessels are coming here all the time, and another
steamship company are going to build docks just outside of here. They are calling for
tenders for construction just now.

We pav from 81 to §7 a thousand feet for logs ; 66 would be a fair average for a
good run of logs per thousand. Spruce costs from §6 to 86.50.

The mill owners in the city are associated together for mutual protection and bene-
fit : that is for the local trade. Rough lumber is sold at an extremely low price, to
compete with mills outside, who onlv mauufactui'e rough lumber. We sell our lough
lumber along with our bettei' class lumber, and thus we are able to even up in the local
trade. We would not sell rough lumber at association price unless the buyer agreed to
take something else with it. We are engaged in the shingle business in a small way for
local trade. Our capacity is forty millions. We are now- making about fifteen millions.
The shingle market is in good shape. Our market is Seattle and its neighbourhood ;
we do not ship into Canada. I do not know of other mills who do. They are busy
enough endeavouring to supply local trade the same as ourselves. We do not fear com-
petition with British Columbia because of the duty. It may be lumber can be manu-
factured cheaper here to-day than in British Columbia, for the simple reason that living
is cheaper over here, and I think that first-class mill machinery is a little cheaper here
than in British Columbia. The cost of labour is a little less. A man can get logs
cheaper at the mills here. The loggers here are more continually occupied than in
British Columbia : they go into it more extensively.

The Government here does not collect stumpage dues as in British Columbia. The
Government here sell the land, timber and all. I think the stumpage tax is higher in
Canada than the land tax is here.

We have an extensive market here. There is a great amount of rough lumber sent
east. The market is improving in Japan for good lumber, but not much to speak of *
* * Xeither Chinese or Japanese cooks are employed in the lumber camps, nor in
getting out logs or shingle bolts, or about the shingle mills. They cannot work with
those fellows at all. Wages are not controlled by the union ; they are controlled by the
demand. I have found white labour reliable and I have always found all the labour I
wanted.

The fact that this is the starting point for the North-west keeps labour well sup-
plied here, but the men do not settle here ; they are generally looking for something
better.

In Seattle there is generally a good demand for labour, but we have generally been
able to get all the white labour we want without difficulty. There is very little agita-
tion against the Japanese here, because they are not employed in the mills, except in
one case that I know of.

Q. Can you compare the difference in the cost of machinery here and in British
Columbia ? — A. American machinery of course would cost more laid down there, than if
it was laid down on this side.

Q. Is the Canadian machinery suitable for the lumbering here, the machinery
manufactured in the east ? — A. Yes, I do not see why a man could not use Canadian
machinery for manufacturing lumber. I have not compared the cost, but I think that
a good deal of the machinery there would compare favourably in cost with the machinery
here.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 117

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. Do you know the difference in the price of machinery such as you liave in the
mill here, and the same machinery on the other sifle ? — A. Well, I was greatly interested
and made careful in(iuiries there a couple of years ago, so as to ascei'tain the difference,
if any, in the cost of machinery for a mill between the Canadian manufactui-er and the
United States manufactui-er, and I came to the conclusion that it was practically
nothing. For hea\y boilers and engines and heavy machinery for working in the mill I
think the difference i.s practically nothing between the Canadian manufacturer and the
American manufacturer. At the same time, I think there is a large amount of Ameri-
can machinery going into British Columbia, but that maj' be accounted for b}^ the fact
that the manufacturers here are turning out a large quantity of mill and other machi-
nery, and that certain parts of mill machinery are manufactured almost exclusively by
certain firms, and the workmen get more expert, and the machinery turned out by these
firms is supposed to be better than that to be obtained in the open market. There are
large factories making one thing, making one machine, and their energy is being
directed to the improvement of that. They turn out a better machine than the manufac-
turer who is engaged in general machinery work. Then they have a large market and
the}' can afford t(j .sell their products much cheaper.

I should say that common white labour is higher in British Columbia than here ; a
labouring man can buy more for a dollar here than he can in British Columbia. All I
do know is, that when I tried to go to work there I could get all the men we wanted at
$'2 a day ; here we pay .§1.7.5 a day. We were then in good shape to get all the men we
wanted for .$2 a day.

Q. What is the i)rice of lumber in Hong Kong ? — A. We sell it f.o.b. hei'e or deli\'-
ered at the vessel's side.

Q. Are you at liberty to state what it is worth here '! — A. Nine dollars and fifty cents
for ordinary common lumber and for flooring .$16 or $17 a thousand ; that is for green
dressed flooring $1& ov .'?17 a thousand.

From the report of the Chamber of Commerce of Seattle for the year 1901 it is
stated that the cargo shipments of lumber from the State of Washington in the year
1901 aggregated 492,765,000 feet and rail shipments 284,280,000 feet.

The lumber cut f)f the State of Oregon is o%er .500,000,000 feet.

SUMMARY.

The export of lumljer last year from British Columliia to foreign countries was over
84,000,000 feet ; of tliis, three mills — the Chemainus, Hastings and Port Moody — ex-
ported about 97 per cent.

The Chemainus, which exported 38,000,000 feet, employ 186 whites, 74 Chiiiamen
and 86 Japanese. The Chine,se have only been employed, except as cooks, within the
last eighteen months. The manager says : We have doubled the capacity of our mill.
I would prefer to pay double the price for white men. We use no Chinese or Japanese
in the woods, except for grading and carrying wood and water. If I had ni}- way I
would have Norwegians and Swedes with big families. I am in favour of an exclusion
act. We have enough of them here.

The Hastings Mill exported 24,000,000 feet. They employ .512 men, of whom 93
are Japanese and 10 Chinese. The Chinese are employed exclusively as cooks. The
general manager of this large concern thought harassing er.actments a mistake, and as
to the .Japanese the arrangement should be by treaty, and added : I don't approve of
them as citizens. There is no chance of their becoming citizens. This applies to both
Japanese and Chinese. If they were excluded, wages would not increase immediately.
It might have that effect.

The Moodyville Mill export about 20,000,000 feet and employ 110 men, of whom
only 10 are Chinese and 40 Japanese. Of the Chinese, five are employed as cooks and
five on contract work at so much a thousand, running a machine for pickets and staves.
So that none at this mill are employed in the export trade.

The North Pacific Lumber Company employ 91 men, of whom 4.5 are whites and
46 Japanese. No Chinese are employed.

118 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

So that the only exporting mill that employs Chinese, except as cooks, is opposed
to their immigration ; the others do not emploj' them except in the limited wav above
mentioned, and are, therefore, not deeply concerned in the question so far as their ex-
porting trade is concernetl.

The largest exporter stated that the lack of white labour here will onlv be remedied
bv the exclusion of the Chinese, when the change will take place gradually ; white
people will then move in with their families until we would soon have sufficient white
labour in the country to answer all demands. We agree with this \-iew.

The wages in British Columbia for unskilled white labour varies from 835 to ij-to a
month. On the American side for the same class of labour, white labour commands
from SI. 75 to $2 per day. In most cases, so far as our inquiry went, 62 was the regular
wage for permanent hands. This applies exclusi\ely to unskilled labour ; so that our
investigation would seem to .show that so far as this particular element entering into the
cost of production is concerned, the advantage seems to be with the Canadian mills.
Upon the other hand there is undoubtedly a better supply of white labour an the
American side.

The cost of logs seems to be about the same. Most mills on the American side buy
their logs. The large exporting mills on the Canadian side have lumber camps and get
out their own logs. The cost of logs on the Canadian side we find to be .$6.25 a thousand
at the mill. On the American side the average was stated to be from .86 to .86.50 per
thousand.

The mill owners stated that pilotage and freight rates are slightly higher on the
Canadian side ; that most of the ships carrying lumber are owned on the American side,
and charters are more difficult to obtain, and that they suflered under the further
disadvantage that their machinery costs more, and that they are not protected in their
home market ; and that upon the whole the cost of all mill supplies, which in any case
is limited in comparison with the wide American market, is greater than on the American
side : and that under present conditions, cheap labour of some kind is necessary in order
to enable them to carry on their business at a profit.

Chinese are not employed on the American side in any of the lumber mills, and
Japanese are only employed in one mill, ha^'ing been taken on about a year ago during
the gold excitement at Nome, when a number of their men left.

It is clear from the evidence that so far as this branch of the industry is concerned
it does not depend to any considerable extent even now upon this class of labour, and
the exclusion of further Chinese immigration would not appreeiablj' affect it.

(The question as to how far tliis industry is dependent on Japanese labour will be
dealt with when treating of Japanese immigration.)

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

119

CHAPTER XIII— THE LUMBER INDUSTRY.

LOCAL AND EA.STERN TRADE.

The tV>lk)\ving list ishuws the prineipal mills engaged in the local and eastern trade,
and the number of whites, Chine.se and Japanese employed therein I'e.spectively :

Name of MiU.

Sayward Mills, Victoria .
Munsie Mill.^

Haslaiii Mills, Nanaiiiio.

in camp.

.. n ni camp ,

North Pacific, near Port Moody

Robertsim & Hackett, Vancouver

Royal City, ^'ancouver ...

Brunette Mills, New Westmin.ster ...

Royal City "

Shield's Mills, Kamloop.s

Yale-Columbia Mill Company (mills at Robson, Nacusp, Cascade, Roche

Creek, Deadwood I

Hillyer's Mill, Nelson

Buchanan's Mills KasU

t As cook:

Accordinfj to season.

The export mills already referred to produce a large amount of lumber, which
comes in competition with the mills that supply the local and eastern trade, and there
are a number of other mills throughout the province not included in the above list, but
the above are sutiiciently representative to fairly represent this trade.

Joseph A. Sayward, engaged in the lumbering business in Victoria, says : I employ
from thirty to fortv Chinese and from sixty to seventy white men. The Chinese are
employed in carrying and piling lumber, and in the mill, as well as attending some of
the machines. They are all ordinary labourers except one. I pay the Chinese from $1
to §1.-50 a day ; white men $2 up to $4.50. I have employed Chinese for fifteen years.
My father operated there for forty years before that, but we never employed Chinese up
to that time. The reason for introducing Chinese was that it was impossible to get
other labour. We formerly employed a good many natives, Indians, here, whom we
paid from $1.25 to $1.50 a day. The Chinese took the place of the Indians, and in some
ca.ses the place of the white men. I prefer Indians to Chinese. The Indians go to the
canneries. The diiference in wages was not the cause of the change. The Chinese are
good workers and reliable. I am in favour of restriction. I do not believe we
should have any more Chinese coming into the country. I think what we
have here is .sufficient. I think the gradual change would cause no serious in-
convenience. Speaking of my own trade, I would favour restriction. It would
be to the general interests of the country. I think the Chinese are detrimental
in every way, in their mode of li\ing, and in keepiing whites from coming in here.
White labour could not exist under the same conditions. If we were paying $2 a day
to labourers we would be obliged to raise the price of lumber. Cheap labour is necessary
at the present time ; if we had to employ white labour it would mean the closing of the
mills. I would restrict this class of labour, because I think the business would natur-
ally seek its own level. We would get the same labour as the Americans get to-day, which
we are not getting at the present time, I mean Swedes. I do not know any reason why

120 SEPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSI OX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

we could not introduce such LiVinur uciw. I think if I could get Swedes as they lune on
the other side I would be perfectly willing to allow the Chinese to step down and out.
I would expect to jiay them something more, because I could get a good deal more work
out of them. I think I could get along with fewer men. As I said before, the Chinese
are here and we have ne\er lieen placed in a jiosition to ask for that class of labour, —
the Swedes. We naturally employed the Chinese and never asked for anv other labour.

Q. Now, if they, the Americans, can get Swedes there, why isn't it possible for you
to get the same class of labour here ? — A. Owing to the fact that the Chinese are here.

Q. And the Swedes would not be disposed to come here under these conditions ? —
A. That is the idea. Labourhas had a tendency to delinea littlecompared with ten vearsago.
I think the Swede would do half as much more, and in some cases twice as much, as the
Chinaman. He is stronger and better adapted to the work. The $1 Chinese would be
employed moving timber about the yard. I think we would be able to pay the Swede
from §1.75 to §2 a day. A white man with a family of three would be able to live
respectably on 81.75 a day. I rent cottages at 84 a month at Spring Ridge ; one at
82.50 a month, that is a four roomed house. I should think from 88 to 810 a month a
fair thing for a workingman's house. I think there are sufficient Swedes and Nor-
wegians on the American side now to come in and take these positions. I think French
Canadians would come here and work at 81.75 a day.

William Munsie, of Victoria, lumberman, and engaged in the sealing business, says :
I employ fourteen Chinese in the mill at from 81-25 to 81.75 a day, and three in the
yard at from $1 to §1.25 a day. The cook gets 830 or 835 a month. I employ 10
white men in the mill and 25 in the camp. I pay the white men in camp from §30 to
§125 a month with board ; §30 a month for ordinary labourers, and §125 a month for
foremen ; intermediate wages §40, 850 and §65 a month.

If no further Chinese were permitted to come in I do not think it would make any
difference in our mill ; I think it would naturally find its own level. It might be a
temporary inconvenience. I prefer to exclude any further immigi-ation. I do not like
our country to be invaded with foreigners of the type of Chinese and Japanese. The
white man with the present cost of living here could not live on the same wages that a
Chinaman can. I would not like to see white men brought down to that level. There
are different classes of labour we could get if no more Chinese came in, — Swedes, Nor-
wegians and French Canadians. It would take some little time to get that class of
labour ; it would gradually find its level. I do not think there would be any ditiiculty.
The change would take place gradually and matters would settle themselves, — equalise
themselves.

The class of white labour we have now is .skilled. I would be willing at any time
to exclude the Chinese and take our chances of getting white labour ; it would right
itself in time. It miglit inconvenience us a little temporarily, but in time it would
regulate itself.

Q. Has there been a scarcity of labour in general for the last three or four years I
— A. I do not think so. We have always been able to find labour. We should
first of all protect our own people, give the labour to our own people, and when
it comes to a time that there are not sufficient of our own people to meet the de-
mands, then it is time to bring in foreign labour. I wish to restrict further immigra-
tion. As the country goes along and progi'esses there will be sufficient coming in here
of our owTi peojile to meet all demands. I would consider the French Canadians
coming here with their families much more desirable than the Japanese.

Ajadrew Haslam, lumberman, of Nanaimo, says : I employ 26 white men in my
mill at an average rate of wages of from §1.85 to §4 per day, and 13 boys ranging from
62ic. to §1.45 a day, averaging 81 ; 13 Chinese from §1 to §1.25 a day, averaging 81-04 ;
9 Japanese from §1 to 81.15, average .§1.02 ; that is at the mill and factory. In the
logging camp I employ 125 men at from 82.25 to §4 a day, average §2.78 ; one white
boy at -81.85 per day, and a Chinese cook and Chinese helper at §1.75 and 81.40 a day.

The total wages per month -83,845 for white men, .§363 to Chinese and .§140 to
Japanese- The men pay for board at the cauip -85 a week.

0^f CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 121

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

I do not employ Chinese in the woods, they do not understand the work. I pay
the white men more becau.se they are worth more. I think the (Hfference in wages
indicates the difference in value ; that is of course altogether depending on the work
the_y are at.

I ran my mill for seventeen years with white labour exclusively, until nearly two
years ago. The profits got so small we could not afford to pay white men on this
outside work, that is work outside the machines. There is an increased expense in
getting timber out of the woods, and an increased expense in everything that enters
into the production of lumber. The price is somewhat less than four years ago. Every-
thing entering into the production of lumber, machinery, food supplies, tools, everything
that has entered into tlie production of the lumber has rai.sed in price. Owing to the
fact that American lumber comes in here free of duty, we can only raise our lumber to
such a price as they cannot sell at. Our principal market is local, Nanaimo and the
immediate vicinity. The Americans do not bring lumber into this town. Thej' com-
pete with other mills and those mills drop into a trade I would probably get if they
were not here. If we were allowed an open market to purchase our supplies it would
be even more effective than the duty on lumber. I have a list here showing the
difference between us and Puget Sound. Horses 20 per cent higher in British Colum-
bia than Puget Sound, wire rope 25 per cent higher, logging engines without additional
freight 25 per cent, axes 25 per cent, saws 30 per cent, mattox 50 per cent, shovels .35
per cent, cant-dogs 50 per cent, steel rails 30 per cent, additional freight .|2 a ton,
locomotives 25 per cent, potatoes 30 per cent, butter 25 per cent, beef 35 per cent,
pork, 35 percent, flour 13 percent, eggs 25 percent, mill saws 32 percent, planers with
the duty and fi-eight costs 30 per cent more, saws with freight and duty added costs 32
per cent more, these are mill saws. The first saws I mentioned were the saws for the
woods. Then the general machinerj^ used in the mill on an average I would say costs
about 30 per cent over the price on Puget Bound. There is only one article we have
as cheap here as there, that is the bull chain with which we haul the logs into the mill.
We buy that in England ; it is a heavy shop chain and it comes in here at 5 per cent
duty.

Q. Is it the duty that makes the difference ? — A. Well, I think there is the freight ;
of course that goes in the same direction. In the first place the wants of British
Columbia are not large enough to justify the Canadian manufacturer building machinery
especially for the timber that grows here. The general class of machinery that they
make is not suited for the timber here.

Q. What is the remedy you propose ? — A. Admitting those articles free of duty, or
putting it on the lumber, but I think it would be the better remed)' — the mills would
be better satisfied — to have the articles come in free. If there was duty on American
lumber it would not act so effectively I think as letting tlie articles I mentioned in
free.

There is as much profit to the mill owner on Puget Sound at $7 per thousand feet
as we have here at .$10. The cost to the manufacturer of lumber over there, according
to my own exact figures, is 27 per cent less than the manufacture here.

Q. Would that enable you to employ white men ? — A. Yes ; if they allowed me to
have the articles in free of duty I will guarantee to empkw nobody but white men about
my mills or in my camp. I am certainly in favour of employing white men. My own
idea leads me to that. I do not wish to employ either Chinese or Japanese if I can do
without them. There is this in favour of the Chinese and Japanese, they are very
reliable and they have done their work well ; but on the other hand, when I employ
white men the money they earn — the money I pay them — is spent in the country, and
my business would be benefitted by more white people being hei'e ; the more white
people, tlie more demand for labour ; more money would be kept in circulation in the
country as well.

Fr(.)m a higher standpoint I certainly consider it is in the interests of the country
tliat it should be peopled with white people. The Orientals do not assume our customs
or habits, nor the rights of citizenship, nor anything of that nature that I know of, not
to any extent. If no more Chinese or Japanese of the coolie class were permitted to

122 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

come in, I do not tliink it would cause any injury to my own business individually. As
I understand it now, it would not cause me any injury I think. I think there ought to
be a restriction placed on them. Confining my opinion exclusively to mv own trade, I
think we have enough Chinese here now.

Q. What is your view as to any more coming in ? — A. From my own indi\ idual
requirements there are enough of the Chinese here now, and as far as my knowledge
goes as to other industries in the province, I think they could get all the labour they
required for any length of time, but they will be better able to speak for themselves :
but the largest exporter of lumber I find is not in favour of allo\\ing any more of the
Chinese to come in. I say there is enough here now.

I .should say thirty per cent of the lumber I manufacture is dressed lumber.

Henry Depencier, manager of the North Pacific Lumber Company, near Port Moody,
says : We employ 91 men at present ; of these 45 are white and 46 Japanese. We have
onl_y been started a few months. We do not employ Chinese. We never employed them
at all. I am a Canadian, born in Ontario.

As to restriction, I prefer not to answer. The French Canadians who come here
are much better men than the Japanese. We could afford to pay tliem fifty per cent
more. They are not worth fifty per cent more at machine work, but at the ordinary
work around the mill they are worth that much more than the Japanese.

James W. Hackett, of the firm of Robertson i Haekett, who employ eighty white
men and twenty Japanese, and are engaged in the sash and door factory business, savs :
The whites are our customers. We sell very little to Japanese or Chinese. We tried
to run our mill without Japanese. We found it was necessary to have a certain amount
of cheap labour. We had to compete with others who had cheap labour, besides cheap
white labour is very unsteady. You can get labour for .?1.50 a day, but they won't
stay with you. If others had employed exclusively white, we would. We don't employ
Chinese. They are not required for our business. I think there are more Chinamen in
the country now than can be profitably employed. I observe a number who are not at
work. I don't think the 8100 will keep the Chinese out if there is profitable employ-
ment for them. I have tried to keep clear of them. We had a white man wheeling
saw-dust, and the rest of the men called out, ' That is a job for a Chinaman.' I don't
want Chinese here. I have not a Chinese cook in the camp. We have a white man,
and he is satisfactory. We pay him $2 a daj' and his board. Our men are a very sober
class of men.

(See further e\'idence of this witness in part relating to Japanese.)

Robert Charles Ferguson, manager of the Royal City Lumber Planing Mills, Van-
couver, wlio employ 150 men, of w-hom 60 are Japanese and 11 Chinese, says: If no
more Chinese and Japanese were admitted I would be satisfied for the present time, but
I don't think we could do in the future. . . . I do not know whether I w-ould
favour re.striction or not. It may be well to restrict for a time, but a man has to be
governed by the wants of his business. The French Canadians who come here are all
good and steady when they come out here. If we had them here they would be better
than either the Chinese or the Japanese.

(See further evidence of this witness under part of the report relating to Japanese ;
and under chapter relating to shingle business, where the eleven Chinese above men-
tioned are exclusively employed.)

A. Lewis, manager of the Brunette Sawmill Company, New Westminster, that
employs 168 white men, seventy-eight Japanese and 10 Chinese, says:

Q. Are you in favour of any restriction on the Chinese coming in 1 — A. I do not
want to give an opinion on that because it does not concern me. I think I could get
along without the Chinese. I am speaking from a mill standpoint. Of course, some
Chinese are as important to other mills as the Japanese are to us.

(See further e^ndence of this witness relating to Japanese.)

Robert Jardine, the local manager of the Royal City Planing Mills at New West-
minster, said : We turn out all kinds of lumber and shingles. Employ 266 men, of
whom 180 are white men, 57 Chinese and 29 Japanese. Pay out 8100,000 in wages, of
which 87| per cent is paid for white labour and 12] per cent to orientals. Chinese are

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMKinA TION 123

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

paid from 65 to §1.35, average •?! ; Japanese, 85 cents to SI. 40 per day. White nien^
are paid from 835 to %^ 25 per month. Otlier wages are as follows : —

Filer, $3.40 a day ; sawyer, $3.00 ; re-sawyer, §3.50 ; edgerman, .§1.75 ; gang-saw,
§1.75 ; boom men, §1.75 to §2.00 ; machinists, §3.50 ; apprentices, §1.00 ; blacksmiths,
$2.50 ; helper, §1.35 ; carpenters, §3.00 to §3.25.

The number of men above mentioned include those emploj-ed not onlj' in the saw-
mill and shingle mill factory, but also on the steamboats and in the logging camp. The
number employed in and about the mill is 197, of which 109 are whites, 2 negroes, 57
Chinese, and 29 Japanese. The Japane.se came in in 1897. Prior to that Chinese were
used. In 1897 we had a number of white men employed that filled the positions now
held by Japanese, and they left and went fishing, and we were com])elled to get what-
ever labour we could ; probably eight or ten left, and more gradually left. It is not the
difference in wages, but the difficulty in getting men that we employ Japanese. "We
require cheap, labour and the Chinese is the kind we have. We have to have cheap
labour, or shut our business down, because two thirds of our cut is shipped east, to the
North-west Territories, Manitolja, Ontario, Quebec and as far east as Halifax. If
we had to employ all white labour at from §35 to .§40 a month, it would amount to
§1,000 a montli or over. We would have to pay 60 per cent more. We don't feel the
competition so much in the local trade. We have a price list between the different
owners. It is not alwaj's adhered to. I don't imagine that the Chinese that are here
would die off so suddenly as to affect u.s very materially. The Chinese are very steady.
If we get a good man we keep him. I see no reason to think we would not keep those
still. I cannot say if further Chinese did not come, whether it would or would not affect
our trade. We have got to have a certain amount of cheap labour ; it does not matter
what it is, whether Chinese or Japanese, under existing conditions. We only use 29
Japanese. I prefer whites. The Chinese do not adopt our mode of living. They leai-n
some of the bad habits of white men. I don't think thev are as beneficial to the coun-
try as white men. I suppose the employment of Chinese and Japanese, and that white
labour has to compete with them, does keep white labour out to a certain extent. Po.s-
sibly that class of labour could be induced to come from the east if orientals were left
out. They liave not been coming, and I don't expect they will wliile tliere is alnindance
of oriental labour.

Q. For a moment disassociate yourself from your bu.siness ; do you see any mean&
of inducing a large settlement of white people except by the exclusion of the orientals ?
— A. Well, I do not know. W^hen the lumber business is quiet, you would be compelled
either to shut down entirely or run half time, and of course we only pay our men for
the hours they work. Under such a condition it would be very diflicult for a white man
to li\"e working only half time.

Q. Does that arise from over-production ? — A. It is the case of supply and demand.
I have seen it here three or four j-ears ago when lumber was selling for actual cost. I
have seen lumber sold here at §6 .50 a thousanfl ; that was at a loss.

Q. No cheap labour could save you from that condition of things i — A. No, but if
we had all white labour the loss would have been much heavier. We would have been
comiielled to shut down entirely.

Our cannery business runs from §30,000 to §60,000 a year. Last year our total
output was §240,000.

We can't compete with any of the mills east in any lumber they can manufacture.
We ship lumber they cannot get there. It is practically an order which cannot be filled
in the east.

Logs are about the same price in the state of Washington as here, but all supplies
used in the mills and the logging camps and pr'a^isions are very much cheaper over
there ; machinery, belting and everything in connection with the running of a sawmill
is cheaper over there.

Q. Would it make much difference to you if everything that enters into the cost of
production of lumber were admitted free 1 — A. I would prefer to see the Americans
throw down their tai'ifl' wall, then we would like to sell to them over there. That would
be more important than the difference in the cost of production.

(See further evidence of this witness referred to in shingle business.)

124 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Alexiinder Shields, manager of the Kamloop.s sawmill, said they emi)loyed 4:2 men,
of whom 30 were whites, 3 Cliinese and 9 Japanese. Have emjiloyed Chinese and
Japanese nine months ; they work outside the mill. Prior to that tliev employed all
whites. The average wages to whites is S2 . 60, including office staff, Chine.se 81 . 12,
Japanese $1.10; excluding the olKce staff the average wages would be §2 . 30. He says :
We had some difficulty in keeping whites. We shut down for a while, and the men
were then discharged, and wdien we started we brought in Japanese. The w hite.s were
not invited to come back.

The management is in favour of further restriction. I would restrict it so no more
would come in. I think there are enough here.

In the logging camps we employ about one hundred men, all white. We prefer them.
We would not have Japanese or Chinese. I think the Japanese are more desirable as a
class than the Chinamen. I don't think any serious loss would i-esult if no more came
in. In the sawmill business it is necessary to have cheap labour. Our market is in the
North-west and local. We come into competition with the coast mills. Oui' manage-
ment would fa^•our no more coming in.

John C. Billings, secretary of the Yale-Columbia Company, that have mills at Kobson,
ISTakusp, Cascade, Roche Creek and Dead wood, and have places of business at Rossland,
at tlie different mills. Greenwood and Phrenix, says : We employ two hundred men ; all
are white men except thi-ee or four Chinese as cooks in the camps and at the mills. The
market is local, the C. P. R. principally, and the mines. The company don't desire any
more orientals to come in. None of the other mills in this district employ Chinese.
We have to compete with American lumber. Competition is very keen. I have no use
whatever for the Chinamen. I think the Japanese are better men. The average wage
of labourers is .f40 a month and board in camp, and piling lumber, or 82.25 a day
and board themselves. There is no trouble in getting men — fairly well supplied.

Charles Hillyer, of Nelson, employs fort}' men in and around the mill and sash and
door factory. He says : All are white men — every man. I pay unskilled labour 82.25
and $2.50 ; skilled labour S3, 83.50 and 84 a day. My market is local in shipping to
the mine.s. I compete with the coast, Wancouver, Tacoma, Portland and Spokane.
Competition is keen. The Chinese question affects me in this way : I have to paj' men
here — working men can't li\e here less than 81.50 or 82 a day, and with family 82 to 82.50.
The unions are strong here, whereas my strongest competitor (mills at the coast) can get
labour for two-thirds of what I am paying in the city of Nelson at the present time. I
have one of my .strongest competitors close to me, the Sayward Company of Victoria.
They have a branch here. They do not employ Chinese or Japanese here. They bring
lumber from the coast, .sashes and door.s. We buy most of our logs from loggers, and
most from the American side. Not one Chinese or Japanese is employed in the camps
hj loggers from whom we buy. Have resided in the province seventeen years. I
favour further restriction. I am talking as a manufacturer. I would exclude them
entirely. If any restriction can be put on it ought to be done. In fifteen years there
will be very few white men working in the sawmills. If I compete with the coast mills
I'll have to put my white men out and put in Chinese. I could not do business here if
I did so, because the white men will not trade. This is the most strongly union section
of the whole Dominion. If Chinese and Japanese came in freely for twenty-five years,
the white man would be the slave and the Chinese would be boss. I mean the Chinese
and Japanese would supersede the whites in the labour market. White labour will
have to seek some other kind of employment. I will have to put in Chinese and Japan-
ese within two years. The Chinese have increased about four hundred since I have been
here. There are about six hundred Chinese here now. All are British subjects in my
mill. You can put a Chinese in any position a white man is in, and he will do anything
a white man can do. Inside of twenty years some of the Chinese will be presidents and
managers of the mills.

INIore rough lumber and sashes and doors are shipped in here from the American side
than from the mills of the coast of British Columbia.

George O. Buchanan, proprietor of the saw mill at Kaslo, says : — I employ from ten
to fifty men according to the season. The logging camps are in the «'inter when the

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRA TION 125

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

mill is iKit running. I employ no Chinese or Japanese except occasionally as cooks. I
don't think the Chinese are affecting us in Kaslo to any extent. I am not in fa\'our of
putting restriction upon anybodv as far as I am concerned. I do not know that the tax
paid when coming in is altogether unjustifiable. We are all liable to pay taxes, and
there may be uotliing wrong in the Chinese paying a tax when coming in. I think it
is pn>bably enough as it is. The Chinese are liuman beings, and I do not believe in the
oppression of any race of men, even an inferior race. I dont think they should be
admitted to the franchise. I do not think they could assimilate or take pai't in our laws
or institutions. 1 think all kinds of men should be free to come and go and make their
homes anywhere it suits them. I don't think them a desirable class to come into the
country. ' God made of one blood all the nations of the earth.'

Stephen Jarrett, superintendent of the Vancouver Sash and Door Company, who
employ thirty men, all whites, says : We employ only skilled labour — only three or four
unskilled workmen. We pay unskilled, 81.50 to 82 ; skilled workmen, -82.75. We
start young lads, two every year at 81 a day, and they advance 50 cents every six or
eight months. I have been here twelve years. I never found any difficulty in getting
men. If I want two men I ha\e twenty applicants, both skilled and unskilled. I don't
think there is sufficient whites to supply all the demand. I would be in favour of a
heavy head tax, say .8500 each. I think if no more came in, no inconvenience would
result to the industry here. I wantefl five skilled men this week ; already I have fifteen
applicants.

We cannot ship our product into the Kootenay country in competiticjn with the
mills of Tacoma. The fi-eight rates are cheaper from Tacoma. Our duties on doors and
windows, I think, is 30 per cent. Our machinery is about 20 per cent higher than on
the other side.

William C. Dickson, book-keeper and yard-foreman at the Royal City Mills, Van-
couver, said : The great objection is to work side by side with a Chinaman. I ha\"e seen
white men turn away rather than do it. There is not much sentiment in it. There is
a principle invohed. This should be a white man's country. (See further evidence of
this witness in the part relating to Japanese Immigration.)

Truman S. Baxter, has resided in Vancouver since 1890, says : I am studying law
at present. I am president of the Vancouver Liberal Association and ex-alderman of
the city. When I came here I commenced working in a sawmill. I got -826 a month
and board. Wages were paid in the city a year ago last winter at 817 a month and
board. In 1890 all of the labour around the sa\nnills was white, e.xcepta Chinaman or
two taking care of slabs. To-day the Japanese and Chinese handle all the lumber in
the yards, and in the mill, running saws. It has been stated before the Commission
that the wages here are higher than on the American side. Last year I had occasioh to go
to Seattle to find out the condition of labourers there, and the figures I give are taken
from the Seattle Lumber Company, and I saw the cheques, so that I know the figures
were paid. The foreman was paid 86.00 a day ; sawyer, .85.00 a day ; filer, 85.00 a day ;
yard foreman, 8100 a month ; planing mill foreman, .8.3.50 a day and men on carriage,
•82.50 a day. The lowest wage paid anywhere around this mill was .81.75 to two or three
new men. Two dollars is the ordinary wage for unskilled workmen. Our mills here pay
the 20th of the month, for the previous month. There the men are paid every Monday
night, receiving wages up to the previous Saturday night. There are no Chinese or
Japanese at all. I also went to Ballard. At Stinson's Mill five hundred men are em-
ployed— not a Chinaman or a Japanese among them. The lowest wage was 81.75 and
the highest wage was 82.50 a month. At this mill there were eighteen edgers or knot
sawyers at 82.50 each. That work is all done here by Chinamen. BaUard is three or
four miles from Seattle. At Kellog's Mill I found conditions the same ; it is also at
Ballard. The Seattle Cedar Lumber Company employ 125 men, 14 knot sa^^'yers there,
getting 82.50 a day. All these mills make shingles except the first. I also visited
Carey's Mill at Seattle, Stinson and Post's and Morran Bros, wages being the same, and
not a Chinese or Japanese employed any^vhere in connection with them. I asked one
of the Morran Bros, where the Japanese were, and he said if there were any there he
would throw them over the wall. As a proof that lumbering can be done here without

126 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Chinese or Japanese labour, I refer to the offer of Mr. Ludgate, to erect a mill and
employ no Japanese or Chinese. There was no bonus. He offered to put up 610,000
as forfeit if he employed Japanese or Chinese.

I favour the exclusion of Chinese. I was deprived of my job by a Chinaman and
left the business. The lumbermen took up great lumber limits, and this keeps them poor.
The mill men are interested parties. For instance, one of the chief witnesses refused to
state what the heatl men get. I believe if this had been given it would have shown
they could employ whites. In Seattle the managers are there on the ground. The
managers here don't do that way. The same cry was raised in the United States when
they tried to shut them out. I believe in the exclusion of Chinese and Japanese alike.
I think by treaty or by enactment they can greatly restrict or prohibit altogether both
the Japanese and the Chinese. Do it by diplomatic action if possible, if not do it any-
way. I'd bar them out anyway. I am not associated with any labour organization. I
was representing Mr. Macdonnell, and he is acting for the Trades and Labour Council.
I went over to ascertain the facts, as alderman, in regard to a certain by-law. I put
myself forward as the champion of what I believe is in the interests of British Columbia
and Canada.

If you go into the bank after the canning seasons, you will see the number of
Chinese" and Japanese asking for drafts. I think it would be suicidal to give them the
franchise. I suggest the most unobjectionable law would be the Natal Act.

SUMM.^RY.

The market in this line of business is largely local and eastern. Chinese are not
employed in the interior of British Columbia, either in the mills or in the camps.
Japanese have recently been introduced in one mill at Kamloops, but with that excep-
tion only white men are employed in the lumber industry in the interior. On the coast,
Chinese are not employed to any large extent, but Japanese, constituting an equivalent,
are largely employed.

THE REL.^TIVE RATE OF WAGES.

The rate of wages in the Hastings Mill tVir unskilled labour is from §40 to $45 a
month : in the Royal City Mills and Brunette Mills at New Westminster §35 a month,
averaging about §1.50 for common labour and running up to §1.75 and §2 a day for semi-
skilled labour, such as edgermen, gang saw and boom men. The Chinese and Japanese are
paid for common labour 85, 90 cents and up to §1, and for semi-skilled labour as high as
§1.25, and in one or two instances §1.50, the average being about §1 a day. The Japanese
and Chinese pile the lumber, take care of the refuse, cut it up into wood, pile it, etc.,
and the more skilled generally run the cut-off saws, the lath and picket saw, and in
many cases are engaged as assistants on planers. Veiy few white men are employed
on this class of labour.

On the American side the wage paid to unskilled labour is higher. At Whatcom
the lowest wage paid to unskilled labour is §1.75 a day ; at Fairhaven from §1.50 to §2
a day. In Seattle the Stetson and Post Company pay from §1.75 to §2.50 for unskilled
labour, the average being §2 a day. Morran Brothers pay a minimum wage of §2 a day.
The lowest wage paid by Mr. Ludgate is §1.75 a day to 'roustabouts ;' §1.75 is their
cheapest labour.

SKILLED LABOUR.

Semi-skilled labour in the British Columbia mUls ranges from §1.75 to §2 a day,
and skilled labour from §2.25 to §3.50 a day. In the export mills higher wages are
paid in a few instances — five sawyers in the Hastings Mill being paid from §4 to $5 a
day, and filers as high as §7 a day. The average wage for white labour in this mill is
from §2.25 to §2.50 a day. In the smaller mills, however, the earlier statement more
nearly represents the average wage. Take the Royal City Planing ^lills of New West-

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 127

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

minster, under the same control as the Hastings Mill, and engaged both in the export,
local and eastern trade, their schedule of prices would approximately rei>resent the
average wage on the coast in British Columbia for semi-skilled and skilled labour. It
is as follows : edger men -^l.T-J, gang saw $1.75, boom men $1.75 to |2, sawyers $3, re-
sawyers $.3.50, filers 6.3.40.

The average wage at Fairhaven, Washington, for white men was $3. 33 J- per day,
wages running up to $5 and $6 a day ; at Whatcom for skilled labour up to -f 4 a day,
averaging from .$2.50 to $3.75. At Seattle sawyers are paid from $3.50 to $4 a day.
At another mill planers are paid from $2.25 to $2.50 and $2.75 a day, planer foremen
$3.50 and filers $5 a day.

The rate of wages for unskilled white labour in this industry is higher in Washing-
ton State than in British Columbia, and for skilled labour it is about the same, except
possibly in one or two instances in the two larger export mills. Some mill owners
c^aim that the American mills have the advantage in a larger local and practically un-
limited home market, and in the fact that there is a duty on Canadian lumber entering
the United States, while certain classes of American lumber enter Canada free of duty ;
and one witness stated that the cost of machinery, iooA supplies, tools and other lum-
bering supplies are from twenty to thirty per cent higher on the Canadian side than on
the American side, and added that ' If we were allowed an open market to purcha.se
our supplies it would be even more effective than a duty on lumber.' The evidence of a
witness who has a mill at Seattle, and made inquiry with a view of ascertaining the
cost of supplies in British Columbia did not sustain this view, but we think there is no
doubt that certain lines of macliinery and certain of the other supplies are higher on the
Canadian side.

Some of the employers took the view that there was no advantage or saving in
wages by employing Chinese or Japanese instead of white men, having regard to the
amount of lalDour done bv each, but that white labour could not be obtained under pre-
sent conditions. The majority of the employers who gave evidence were emphatic in
their opinion, that no more Cliinese or Japanese should be admitted ; that the supply
for the present and foi' a long time to come was adequate, and that if no more Chinese
or Japanese came in white labour would gradually take its place, without loss or incon-
venience to the industry, and with great benefit to the country. All were agreed that
this class of immigrants are undesirable as citizens, and all that were willing to express
an opinion favoured higher restriction or exclusion.

On the American side Chinese labour is not employed in this industry, and Ameri-
can employers are in favour of their present exclusion laws.

It is quite clear that the Chinese are employed but to a limited extent in this
branch of the trade and are not essential to its prosperity.

(The regulation of Japanese labour to this industry will be dealt with under that
heading.)

CHAPTER XIV.— SHINGLE BUSINESS.

The shingle business rests upon a somewhat difierent footing from the lumber busi-
ness, and as it has become a very important industry, it deserves separate treatment.
A few quotations from the evidence will indicate the scope and condition of the business.

The following list shows a large proportion of the shingle mills of the ProWnce :

Mill. Whites. Chinese. Japanese.

Pacific Coast Co., (nine mills) . . 210 105 300 (in camp)

Spicer 20 30 5

McNair 159 27 42

Heaps 56' 21 27

445 183 364

128 REPORT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

James C. Scott, the mayor of New "Westminster, and the manager of the Pacific
Coast Lumber Company, and who handles the output of eight or nine other mills,
namely, one at Port Moody, two at Hastings, one at Cloverdale, one at Ruskin, and the
rest at Vancouver, says ; The shingle business began when I came here. There are
two shingle mUls here, and one at Harrison, not included in the arrangement. There
was a large over-production. There was considerablj- more than twice the capacity that
the market called for, and the consolidation of the several mills w;is the way taken to
control it. We organized in November last year. The heaviest consuming market is,
first, Ontario ; second, Manitoba ; and third the Territories. We have no home market
just now at all. We don"t sell in the States, the duty keeps us out. The home market
would not take more than 5,000,000, and one mill would produce that in a month.
There is a certain small trade with the States of eighteen inch shingles, the usual size
being sixteen inch.

The Chinese are used for pulling bolts from the water surface to the mill, cutting
them up in sixteen inch lengths, and piling them on tables convenient to the sawyefs.
The sawyers are white men. The packers are usuallj- Chinese. The packing is done by
contract. When I came here first I had a prejudice against them, and I used white
labour till July or August 1893. I felt that I had to employ Chinese. My cost was
greater than others. I made it a hobby to try and get white boys to do the packing
the same as we used to do in Ontario. I succeeded in getting two separate white con-
tractors to undertake it, and they both confessed f;iiiure. The boys said they did not
want that job, it was Chinaman's woi'k. We had no trouble in Simcoe County, Ontario,
in getting boys at 75 cents to -^l a day to do the work. We pay here more than we
did there. We paid 5 cents a thousand there and 6 and 6^ cents per thousand here. It
appeared they regarded it as degrading because it was Chinese work. It is true that
boys and men and girls do not like work where Chinese are habitually employed. It
is unfavoui'able to the community. Chinese have taken the place usually given to boys
and they have got into indolent habits No Japanese are employed in the shingle
factories.

If no more Chinese came in it might bother us for a time. It would regulate itself
in time. If they were not here at all we could get some labour to take their place. If
they were cut off at once we could get boys or others in their places. I cannot answer
the question in any other way than that it is unfortunate for the country that they are
here at all. They are not assimilative. 1 do not think it would be desirable if they
did assimilate. It is apparent to me it would be difficult to clear land, but if they were
not here other labour would come. I certainly think their presence has a tendency to
keep that labour out. It is not desirable that labour should be kept out. It is a
difficult problem to think out. The difficulty will increase with the numbers. They
build a few houses near the mill and herd together. There is no home life. Very few
have wives here. Although this might be a temporary inctmvenience — this is too nice
a country to live in to have Chinese as the labourers of this country. I say this against
my own interest. I do not think the §100 will have any material effect whate\er on
the numbers coming in. If as much as S500 were put on it might have some effect.
It might cripple us for a time. I would be willing to take my chance with the rest of
us rather than have this thing go on. It is quite possible that we over-estimate the
trouble, and that it might not be as bad as we fear. I have engaged a few Japanese.
The Japanese are more ready to pick up work and adapt themselves quicker to work.
I regard the Japanese less undesirable. I do not think I class them in the same
category. They are decidedly more desirable than the Chinese.

The business is fairly profitable for the last two years. The cost of production
would not vary to the extent of five cents (i.e. if oriental labour not employed). There
is uo duty on shingles coming in. We experience competition at Sarnia, Goderich,
Windsor, Chatham, etc., also from Washington State.

I consider there is material right here in the boys in this town to do all the work.
If we got men instead of boys we would have to pay one-third more, or a difference of
$3 a day with that crew, they produce 100,000 in" ten hours, that is |3 on 100,000, .
or three cents per thousand. The Chinese or Japanese are employed in making bolts. I

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 129

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

They get $1 a cord. They work most of the year except in tlie canning season. We
produce from 1.50,000,000" to 200,000,000 per year. It is a Canadian industry depend-
ing on the Canadian marliet. I think it desirable to i-un the industries employing
oriental labour i-ather than to stop them. In the interests of the country a .f300 tax
is more desirable. I have never experienced a scarcity of Chinese or Japanese. The
city employs exclusively whites. The general sentiment is against Chinese and against
the immigration of orientals. A white man cannot \\\e on what a Chinese or Japanese
lives on. The Japanese, from the standpoint of the labourer is as dangerous as the
Chinamen.

A man looks to see what labour is available, and he finds a mixture of Chinese and
white labour employed, and an unsettled condition of affairs indicated by the present
Commission, and that unsettled state of affairs leads him to wait to see the result. I
would agree with Mr. Palmer, of Chemainus, that while we could not get on now with-
out Oriental labour, yet if no more came in it would not seriously affect my interests,
and I would take the chances.

H. H. Spieer, manager of the Spicer Shingle Mill Company, of Vancouver, says :
All shingle mills employ Chinese labour more or less. We pay in wages about $2,000 a
month — 6.3 per cent to white, .35 per cent to Chinese. We used to get §2.00, .f2.25 and
$2.50 per thousand ; ncjw there is no fixed price. They sell to local trade at iJl.lrO.
There is competition. The tendency would be to get a better price if American shingles
did not interfere. The market is ridiculously small for the number of mills here. We
make the price and we don't cut till we have to. The total market in Canada is
225,000,000; 165,000 is a car load. We .ship considerable to the United States ; no
success in shipping to Australia or Africa. It would be bad for the shingle business if
we could not get Chinese. I do not know, but I am inclined to think that an exclusion
law, if it resulted in no more Chinese coming in, would act very strongly in shutting our
mill down in the future. They seem better adapted than Japanese. We ship into the
United States as a dumping ground for the surplus. The duty is 30 cents per thousand.
Mongolians work the same number of hours as other men. American shingle mills are
chiefly run by white labour. We could not pay as much to white men unless we had
tliat cheap labour. If Canada had a population of 30,000,000 we might not have to
employ Chinese at all, but our market is limited.

James A. McNair said : I am engaged in the shingle and lumber trade. We employ
a total of 228 men about the mills and logging camps — 159 whites, 42 Japanese and 27
Chinese. The average pay of whites per day is .3410, Japanese .$46, and Chinese $45.

We tried white labour instead of Chinese three years ago. We gave instructions
to the contractor to use white men and to test the matter we gave him the contract,
and in three months' time he had Chinamen. It was the same price to white men and
Chinamen. He could not get sufficient white labour at the price. I have three shingle
mills on the other side. I employ 138 men there ; all are white men. We pay there
for packing eight cents per thousand for five butts to two inches, and 7 cents per thou-
sand foi- six liutts to two inches. White labour is generally employed over thei-e. Some
of the shingle mills there have Japanese, one at Sumas, one at Lake Whatcom, and one
at Carroll Siding. Our market there is the middle and eastern states. Our market
here is British Columbia, Xorth-west Territories, Manitoba and Ontario. We have no
difiiculty in getting men, except in the fishing season. We would have to have cheap
labour or shut down. The Chinaman never changes. I should prefer to employ whites,
and we do as much as we can.

The only way we can ship into the United States is by shipping in larger shingles.
We got part of our machinery from the United States, and paid duty, — on boiler and
engine 25 per cent. We did a little better than their price plus the duty — just a trifle.
We produce shingles a little cheaper on the other side — just a shade. We have not
built extra mills here, and we have built two over there. The total capacity of the
shingle mills in British Columbia is something like 650,000,000 to 700,000,000 per
annum. AVe can go there and ship into the United States or Canada as we choose.
There are 360 shingle mills in Washington and Oregon. They ship some thousands of
cars a day. Some mills have a capacity of half a million a day. Of the 31,132,000
54—9

130 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

sold in Canada from the United States, British Columbia took 11,360,000; Manitoba,
12,721,000; New Brunswick, 8fi0,000 ; Quebec, 141,000, and Ontario, 5,846,000, the
North-west Territories, 135,000; Yukon, 69,000. Business won't stand higher wages
all round. Take the extra cost of machineiy and ever_ything, you would have to reduce
the higher wages if you liad all white. We get a little better prices in the United
States than here for our pi-oduct.

The bolts cost 50 cents more a cord here, a difference of 8 or 10 cents a thousand
between price of shingles here and there. We have got to pay more for material and
for all pro\'isions, horse feed and all that sort of things.

Tlie duty is a much larger consideration with us than the exclusion of Asiatics
would be. If we had the market here covered by a duty it would help us a great deal
in doing without Japanese. If we had our own market then we are not more crowded
than they. It is partially true that in our business what we save from the cheap labour
we give to the white labour. It is a toss up as to who can save more — our men or the
white men on the other side. If orientals were taken out we would have to scale down
the white labour.

E. H. Heaps, manager of the Heaps Company, Vancouver, says : We paid wages
for March, 1900— to whites, SI, 681. 30, Japanese S711.70, Chinese 6540. We run night
and day, two shifts of three men each. An ordinary sawyer earns 82.75 a daj'. He
can earn $3.50 if exceptionally good. We have three machines idle for want of a saw-
yer. There is a scarcity of skilled labour. We employ in the camps on contract about
eighty men in getting out bolts. We let the contracts to Japanese, Chinese and
whites. The Japanese contractors employ Japanese ; the Chinese contractors emploj'
Chinese ; the white contractors employ Japanese and Chinese. Ninety per cent of the
bolts are got out by Japanese and Chinese. You can depend on them for this work.
We pay $5,000 a month for say eight months, §40,000, besides the factory wages. The
division of wages would be the following : —

Japanese and Chinese for bolts .? 36,000

" in the mill 8,000

Total $ 44,000

Whites in the mill !§ 10,000

" for bolts 4,000

Total to whites $ 14,000

It is not cheaper to employ Japanese and Chinese for bolts. I think if we have
protection all through, the men ought to be protected, too. I think the restriction on
Chinese is quite sufficient. At present we have enough Chinese. The work they are
engaged in seems to suit them. It is under cover ; it requires quickness of hand and
eye, and it is not hard work, and they earn high wages. As a rule they are steady and
reliable, and you can depend upon their being there. The oriental labour is a necessity
for our business. In the shingle mill we have more whites than when we first started.
Boys can learn to run the saws. We make a special point to try and get white sawyers
and boys to learn the trade, and when they learn they go to the Sound.

Cedar is getting scarcer : it has to be hauled longer distances to the water. Horses
are dearer, wages are higher, and machinery is higher now.

C. Uchida, Japanese contractor, says : I contract to get out shingle bolts. I get
$2.05 per cord delivered on the scow. I pay $2 per cord and get 5 cents and what I
make on supplies. I take out about 3,000 cords. We employ all Japanese. We send
in rice, flour, salt meat, vegetables, sugar, and fresh meat once a month. It costs them
$10 or $11 a month for board. They hire a cook — two cooks for 36 men. I have wife
and children at home. There is only one family out there. I buy groceries at the
wholesale stores. I keep a store, and buy $2,000 a month ; $360 a month goes into
camp. I supply them with overalls and working clothes. I buy some from white men

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 131

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

and some from Chinese. The white men do not get out shingle bolts. The .3G men in
the camp are not naturalized. I am not a British subject.

Arthur C. Gordon, contractor for cutting shingles, says : Tlie work is done for me
by Chinese. The Chinese do the packing. Jointing and cut-oiF. They make about ■'$1.2.5
a day. I have known white men do it. They do it faster. A good white packer
would pack 4:0,000, while a Chinese packs only 20,000 or 25,000. I pay seven cents a
1,000. This work has always been done by Chinese for twelve years. There are more
mills now. In Washington a white man averages 40,000 a day. I never had a white
man, a packer or jointer, apply for work. A white man could make $2.80 a day. I let
all the work to one Chinaman, and he hii'es his own men. I employ eleven Chinese and
two whites — no Japanese. I don't know one white packer here. I favour restriction.
I think we have enough Chinese now. I favour exclusion. I think as whites increase
they should decrease. We have four Chinese packers. Two white men could do the
work of the four Chinese packers. There are no white packers offering. I would like
to see white men in the country. I am just making wages. I might as well work by
the day. I took two white sawyers this spring and broke them in myself. The Chinese
ha^'e always been working around getting skilled.

Stephen Ramage, says : I am a saw-filer in Heaps' Shingle Mill, Vancouver.
Have resided here since the fire. There are many more Chinese in the mills than form-
erly. They are increasing steadily. That applies to all the mills. The Japanese are
on a greater increase tha^ Chinamen. I think it would be a benefit if more restrictions
were put on. It would tend to stop the immigration. There are sufficient here now to
supply the demand for some years to come. The Japanese are a greater menace to
whites than Chinese. They are abler-bodied men. They adopt our mode of living more
readil}-. The Japanese and Chinese deter men from coming here. A-^ery few of the
Japanese and Chinese have a family. My principal reason would be to save the country
for my own race. I would not object to Europeans. I object to Asiatics. I.hope they
will not assimilate with our people. I think not. The shingle mills are working on
shifts — double time just now, since the spring trade has opened up. To jump from one
to the other, it might be difficult to carr^' on the business with white labour. There is
white labour that don't get employed on account of the Japanese being employed. I
think white people are kept out of employment. I was foreman of a saw-mill for local
trade. The price of lumber has gone up. In the depression lumber was lower two or
three years ago. There was keener competition four years ago than now. There is a
better agreement now as to price — not so much cutting. Wages are no better. The
price of logs is a little higher now. I would rathei' keep out the Japanese and let the
Chinese come in with a head- ta.x as at the present time. The Japanese are more of a
menace. They are more capable men and do their work as cheap as Chinese. They
dress like a white man, but don't eat like a white man. They live in aggregations as
much as Chinese. Their diet is principally rice. They would not be as great a menace
as the Chinamen if they lived up to our standard, — that is the average Canadian doing
their class of labour. ^^

Tlie Heaps mill started witii three shingle machines. There is now a factory a saw-
mill and a machine shop all attaclied to it. McNair Brothers went into business ten
years ago. They started cutting shingle bolts. Kirkpati-ick started by renting power.
He now owns twt) plants. The mills here have not as modern machinery as the Ameri-
cans. The tariff might benefit some people. They would not dismiss the Mongolians
on that account. I think the present time is as good as any for change.

The Japanese can learn to run the saws, and they will be employed at this higher
work. No European nation is as objectionable as the Japanese and Chinese.

Some of the plants are as modern as the Americans, and some are not. The large
export mills average well with the American mills. We can manufacture shingles as
cheaply as the Americans can. Eighty per cent of the machinerj' is Canadian. I think
we could do without more at all. They do without Japanese and Chinese on the other
side. If a change was made at once it would take some few days to get white men.
The mills on the other side run without Asiatic labour. I don't think it is true that
when labouj'ers come in they go off to something better, not more so in this country
54—91

132 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

than in any other. Tlie general wage is about SI. 50 a day. I was in the Royal City
mill for five years. I daresay Cook could get enough white men to run the Hastings
mill in two days. The average Japanese gets SI a day. Wages are worse to-dav than
they were some years ago. There is just as much ti'ouble with the Chinese and Japanese
going fishing as the whites. I would tell unskilled labour not to come here. We have
Chinese packing and Japanese cutting bolts. There is no way of getting in white labour
to learn the saw — it is the Japanese and Chinese. The Japanese are apt to learn.
Filers get $i a day ; band saw filers get S6 to §7 a day. Wherever the Japanese enters
he cuts wages in two.

SUMMARY.

This important industry employs over one thousand men, of whom less than half
are white workmen. The following probably does not include all, but fairly gives the
proportion : —

Whites 445

Chinese 18.3

Japanese 364

The Chinese are employed principally in bringing the bolts from the water surface
to the mill, cutting them up into sixteen inch lengths readv for sawyers (and recently as
sawyers themselves in some mills) and in packing, for which they are exclusi\ely employed
by Chinese contractors. They liave become expert packers, and are deemed specially
suited for that work. Although white packers in Washington and Oregon, where no
Chinese are employed, are found to do the work much more rapidlj- and on the whole as
cheaply. The white men and boys have not been trained to the business and cannot
now compete at the same price, and refuse to work at it because ' it is Chinese work.'
No Japanese are employed in the factories.

The output of nine mills are now controlled through one company. Large quan-
tities are sent east. The manager of this large concern says that ' if no more Chinese
came in it might bother for a little while ; it would regulate itself in time. If they were
not here at all we could get some labour to take their place. If they were cut off
at once we could get boys or others in their places. I cannot answer the question in any
other way than that it is unfoi-tunate for the country that they are here at all. The
business is fairly profitable for the last two years.'

This witness makes a further most important statement :

' I consider there is material right here in the boys in this town to do all the work."
He then shows that if white men were employed it might increase the cost of production
by three cents per thousand.

' I agree with Mr. Palmer, of Chemainus, that while we could not get on now with-
out oriental labour, yet if no more came in it would not seriously aftect my interests. I
would take the chances. The general sentiment is against Chinese and against emigra-
tion of orientals.'

The representative of another company that employs 228 men in their lumber and
shingle business, of whom 159 are whites, 42 Japanese and 27 Chinese, stated that their
average wage per day to whites was S410 ; to Japanese, $46 ; to Chinese, §45. This
included the lumber business as well as the shingle business. This company tried white
labour instead of Chinese, but in thi'ee months' time found that they could not get white
labour at the same price paid to Chinese. The company have three shingle mills in
Washington State, where they employ 138 men in the shingle business alone, all whites.
White labour is generally employed there.

There are 360 shingle mills in Washington and Oregon that ship thousands of ears
a day, some of the mills having a capacity of half a million a day. Of the thirty-one
millions sold in Canada from the United States last year British Columbia took over
eleven millions, Manitoba nearly thirteen millions and Ontario nearly six millions.
They get a little better price in the United States than here for the product. He stated
further : ' If we had our own markets then we are not more crowded than they.'

ON CHIXESE AND JAPANESE lilMIGRATION 133

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

It is partially true, he states, that wluit the}- save from cheap labour thev .t;i\'e to
white lahoui'. 'If orientals were taken out we would have to scale down the white
labour.'

Another emplo_yer stated that he paid out to whites for March, 1900, $1,681 ; to
Japanese S711, and to Chinese §.540; that he employs about 80 men in getting out bolts,
and lets contracts to Japanese, Chinese and whites. Japanese contractors employ
.Japanese ; Chinese employ Chinese, and white contractors employ Japanese and Chinese.
Ninety per cent would be .Japanese and Chinese. In eight months they paid out for
bijlts •$40,000 besides the factory wages, as follows : —

Japanese and Chinese for bolts S 36,000

To whites for bolts 4,000

Japane.se and Chinese in the mill 8,000

To whites in the mill 14,000

This witness thought restriction quite sufficient and stated that at present they
have enough Chinese. He found them steady and reliable. He declared oriental
labour a necessity for their business.

A white contractor who employs Chinese for packing, jointing and cutting off,
stated that a good white packer would pack forty thousand, while a Chinaman packs
only from twenty to twenty-five thousand. He pays seven cents a thousand. He states
that in ^^'ashington white men average forty thousand a day, and this was confirmed
by evidence on the American side. Chinese have always been employed in packing.
He had never had a white man applj' for work. A white man could make $2.80 a day.
This contractor lets all the work to one Chinamen and he hires his own men. He
employs eleven Chinamen and two whites. He did not know of a single white packer.
This witness favours exclusion. He thinks as whites increase Chinese should decrease.
He declared that two white men could do the work of four Chinese packers. He took
two white sawyers on this spring and taught them himself.

Why is it, then, if white men can do so much more than Chinese, and therefore
working by contract can earn .$2.80 a da}-, they do not eagerly seek employment ? The
answer, we think, is simple. Chinese have always been employed in this business. They
have become expert. The white man at first is unskilled. He would earn very low
wages at first. The work is done by contract. The skilled Chinese are there ready to
do the work. It is more convenient to sub-let the contract to a boss Chinese con-
tractor who will employ Chinese on his own terms, than for the white contractor or the
owner of the mill to train a stafi' competent to do the work, e\'en although when trained,
the woi-k could be done as cheaply and the white man earn good wages.

In the east this work is largely done by boys who are trained to the business from
an early age. There is no reason in the nature of things why this might not and ought
not to be the case in British Columbia, except the presence of the Chinese and Japanese.
AVhile they are there in such numbers they will be employed to the exclusion of v.hite
labour, because if not cheaper, it is more convenient.

In the mills in Washington and Oregon no Chinese are employed and yet the work
is done very nearly, if not quite, as cheaply. There is only a shade of difference, accord-
ing to the witness, who thought he could not get on without this cheap labour. Accord-
ing to one calculation, even if men were employed instead of boys, it would only make a
difference of three cents a thousand. If it is further taken into account that neither
white men nor boys will work if they can avoid it at what is called a Chinaman's job, a
satisfactory explanation is given as to why it is. The Chinese practicalh* control this
branch of the industry.

The conclusion reached is that neither Chinese nor Japanese are essential to the
success of this business, but being available and conveniently employed by contract, they
have become a part of the machiner}- of production which would for a time be thrown
out of gear if they were discharged. They are at present more convenient, but not
essential. There is a supply for many years to come, and if no more came in no per-
manent injury woulfl result. The stability of the business does not depend upon them.

134

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

CHAPTER XV.— THE CANNING INDUSTRY.

The .salmon cauiiing industry of the world is practically confined to the North
Pacific Coast of America.

The number of Japanese and Chinese engaged in it greatly exceeds the number of
them employed in any other industry. For some years past the total pack of the
Pacific Coast has been in the neiglibourliood of three million cases, but for the season of
1901 the enormous piack of over five million cases of 48 one-pound tins is reported. Of
this number over 1,200,000 were produced in British Columbia ; 9.iO,000 of which were
packed on the Fraser River, and 1,100,000 oases or over, w^ere packed on Puget Sound,
chiefly of Fraser River salmon.

This industry in British Columbia ranks in importance with that of the mines and
lumbering industry. The following tables will indicate its growth.

Total number of licenses in British Columbia : —

Year.

Total.

To
Japanese.

Canners.

Others.

1896

3,533

4,500
4,4:^5
4,197
4.892
4,722

452
787
768
930
1,892
1,958

1,063

1.203

1,204

175

542

548

'\01S

1897

2,510

1898

2,463

1899

1900

1901

3,092

2,458
2,216

Year.

No. of Employees.

Value of Plant.

1896

14,227

19,850
20,695
20,037
20,262

2,197,248
2,350,260
2,480,245

1897

1898

1899

1900

2,145,173
2,839,904

Value of Salmon Pack by District.

District.

1896.

1897.

1898.

1899.

1900.

Fraser River

1,801,654

529,588

5.53,631

70,315

24,216

4,219,751

211,644

330,747

96,000

66,276

1,268,278

434,042

.505,737

96,000

60,187

2,531,500

401,414

589,934

93,321

58,320

1,590,532
439,617
702,144

Rivers Inlet

Nass River

Vancouver Island

96,960
82,089

2,985,305

4,927,418

2,364,245

3,674,491

2,911,344

This is based upon a uniform price of 10 cents per pound.

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 135

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The exports of dry salted dog salmon to Japan are : —

1898 .$ 100,000

1899 120,000

1900 228,000

These were \;due(l at three and four cents per pound.

The total outjiut for British Columbia : —

1894 494,371 cases

189.5 .566,.39.5 "

1896 601,570 "

1897 1,01-5,477 "

1898 484,161 "

1899 732,437 "

1900 58.5,413 "

1901 1,205,037 "

Of the twenty thousand employes engaged in the Fisheries it is estimated that ten
thousand are employed in and about the canneries, and of these about six thousand are
Chinese. Of the 74 canneries in British Columbia, 49 are on the Fraser. The process
of canning (making cans, filling, cooking, soldering, and boxing) is almost exclusively
done by contract. The contracts are made with boss Chinamen who hire their own
help in their own way.

This methdfl of doing business adopted by the canners has its special advantages
and probably accounts for the fact that Chinese are preferred for this department of
the business. Certain Chinamen have become experts and are sought after, both by
the employer and the Chinese contractor. They command from -$35 to §45 per month.
The contractor makes an advance of from $30 to $40 to each Chinaman at the opening
of the season to induce him to come. The contractor furnishes the provisions, where
chiefly his profits are made. At the end of each month what he has supplied is made
up and charged pro rata to the men in his employ. At the end of the season, if the
run is short, the contractor may lose money on his contract which, however, is partly
covered by his profits on the provisions. If the provisions furnished to the Chinamen
and the ad^•ances made to them exceed the amount of their wages at the end of the
season the loss falls on the contractor and not on his employer.

The advantages to the canners are : First, the contractor takes the responsibility of
employing sufficient hands to do the work, thereby saving all the inconvenience and
trouble which would otherwise fall upon the emploj'er ; second, the work is done by
experts who have been trained to the business ; third, the canner knows exactly what
' the processin ' will cost per case ; fourth, any loss falls upon the contractor ; fifth, he
avoids the trouble of furnishing supplies, and the expenses of providing accommodation
suitable for white men ; sixth, the Chinese boss is able to get more work out of the men
and to have it done more satisfactorily than when they work by the day for the cannery
employer.

It is manifest that this method of conducting the business, places it practically in
the hands (jf the Chinese, prevents white workmen from Ijeing trained to this part of
the business, and ])artly accounts for the fact why eannerymen agree that Chinese are
required for this industry.

Alexander Ewen, of New Westminster, said : I have resided in British Columbia
thirty-six or thirty-seven years. There were a good many Chinese here then. There
were not many people in the country at that time. The canning industry started about
1870. I did not employ them tlie first two or three years. I was among the first to
develop this business. I employ from 150 to 200 men now in the canneries. Of these
the average would be about twenty whites. I employ Chinese and Japanese, but pay
wages individually and not by contract. The Chinese come from all over the
Province. There has been difficulty in getting Chinese for the last four years at least.

136 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.,, A. 1902

Last year it was difficult to get tliem, and after we got them it was unfortunate that we
had little or notliiiig for them to do. Latterly I have had to employ Chinese through a
boss, because lalxiur is getting so scarce that skilled Chinese are hard to get. The
Chinese we get do various kinds of work, such as farming and clearing of land.

I make the cans at my own cannery. I have a certain amount of machinery to
lessen the cost. I do not get them at the Automatic Cannery. When I started in
business the tins were boiled in kettles over a large fire ; afterwards we used steam to
heat the water. Retorts were introduced in 1881, also soldering machines which save
considerable labour. The soldering machine did not work well for four or five j-ears
after it was introduced. Soldering machines and retorts were first developed in this
country. The cans are wiped and capped by machinery. One washing or wiping
machine, with three people at the outside, will do up to two thousand cases every day.
Before that we had to have twenty or thirty hand washers. Two hands with a capping
machine will do 1,500 to 2,000 cases a day. By hand there would be twenty putting
covers on. The fish cutting machine saves the laliour of five men on 1,500 cases a day.
We have an automatic cooking process and tester as well, and an automatic washing
machine, which saves the labour of from fifteen to twenty men, or more. There has not
been much impro\"ement in washing and cleaning fish. Canneries make cans as cheap
as they can buy them, probably eheajser.

Most of the machinery has been in\ented and manufactui-ed in British Columbia.
I do not know of any improvements in the prtx-ess for catching the fish. The nets are,
of course, heavier and better, and the boats are larger and more sea-worthv. These are
more expensive now. It costs more now to catch fish than it did ten or twelve years
ago. We are fishing with drift nets, as we have always done. The improvement has
been in taking care of the fish after they are caught.

I can make as cheap cans as the Automatic Cannery. Machinery has reduced
labour in the cannery one half or a little more, exclusive of the question as to whether
or not the factory can produce cans any cheaper than I can. Where I used to have to
employ three or four hundred men nine years ago, now I can do the same work with the
same class of labour with a hundred and twenty men. The fishing is overdone. The
river in my opinion is o\er-crowded. There is just a certain amount of work to do, and
they cannot get the same quantity. It is dividing up the catch on the ri\er among too
many. If there were a fewer number of fishermen they would get more fish no doubt,
but that is like everything else. The business will le\'el itself ; I do not see how that
can be legislated down. The business is overdone. The canneries were built on a
large scale when there were fewer of them : now there are a great many of them, and it
is almost impossible to get a full day's work. Three or four days in the season you will
have all you can do, get more than you can handle, but immediately after it drops down
to only half a day's work.

The canneries are not all alike. The plant alone will lun ten to fifteen thousand
dollars, for from 1,500 to 2,000 cases a day, and some will be a good deal higher. The
trouble is to get the fish, and the pe<:)ple to do the work ; that is the great difficulty. It
is only work for a short season. You have to invest that large amount, and make all
preparations for a large run, for you can never tell what is before you. The bulk of the
work has to be done in eight or nine days ; the principal portion of your catch has to be
taken care of in that time.

If we had as many fish as in 1897, or we had any guarantee of what it wt)uld be,
it would be easier to do the fishing with a thousand boats or less, than with 3,000 boats.
If the Japanese had not come in the industry would have been out of existence. With
the number of canneries in existence now you could not get along unless there were
more boats. The number of canneries has doubled within twelve years.

A great many white men within the last three years have become not so anxious to
fish as they were. They will not leave work at which they are earning 65 a day to go
fi.shing, and a great many of them have dropped out. It was not from the number of
boats but from the number of fish in the river. I say judging from the capital invested
and the preparations made to take care of the fish, there are not enougli boats to keep
the canneries going. They ha\'e got to go awa\' into the ocean to get the <|uantity

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 137

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

required by the canneries. If voii (louljle the number (jf boats they would have to cover
more ground. As far as the industry is concerned to-day, if you follow the facts all the
way through, the number of fish caught and put (jn the market is not deci'easing much,
but the cost of getting them is increasing, and the number caught In- each fisherman
has decreased. The fishermen have now to go out as far as Point Roberts, Point Grey
and Howe Sound and bring their fish to the Fraser, whereas before fish were only caught
in the river. The number put up has not increased, the number has decreaserl individu-
ally to tlie fishermen. The fisherman is likel)' to catch more in the Frasei' if there are
fewer nets.

The close season was for the purpose of preserving the fish. The nets have to be
placed 2.50 yards apart, and you must not obstruct two-thirds of the river. They have
tried to enforce the law. It seems to me it is impossible to carry it out. I cannot say
that there is one too many canneries. I said it was overdone. Any person who goes
into the business will fijid it is not profitable. It will soon find its own level.

As to restriction on Chinese immigration, I do not interfere with matters of that
kind at all. Politics is not my business. The Chinese do not hurt me. I have no
view to express on further restriction, because I cannot tell whether it would be good
or bad. I fully believe that if we had exclusion here that in five or seven 3-ears there
would be ^■ery few Chinese in British Columbia. They would all be in the United
States. They are going there in great numbers, this year esjiecially. The opjjortunities
for them are better there. If the number of Chinese were limited to any extent the
canning industry would suffer I think. It is suffering now. It was impossible to get
the number of men we thought we wanted last year. You can compare the largest
number that was working in July and August with any of the years previous, and I
tj'ied to get all the men I could, 85 in August and 63 in July of last year ; the j-ear
before 146 in August and 122 in July ; the year before that 116 in August and 116 in
July, and the year before that 159 in August and 155 in July. The capacity of the
canneiT did mit vary those years, but the fish varied, and the reason for the large num-
ber of men in 1897 was, tliat was the largest run of fish that has been on the Fraser
River, and the run continued so long.

The 250 yard I'egulation was to prevent fishermen interfering one with the other.
In some of the provinces thev use fixed nets. Trouble has been caused by one man
crowding another. If you put two nets in the river 250 j-ards apart before they drift
half-a-mile they will be both together. The water does not run the same. It is im-
possible to carry out the regulation.

The United States is our only competitor in the markets for canned salmon. It is
supposed that the fish that are caught on Puget Sound are all heading for the Fraser
River because that is their spawning ground. That is the sock-eyes. They catch them
at a much less price over there when there is an average run of fish, but last j'ear I
belie\-e their fish cost them as much as they cost us here. They have an advantage in
canning fish when they are caught in trajis over they Fraser River canners with gill-
net fishing. If they get too many fish they can keep them in the traps three or four
days without any expense. The heavy run will last only three or four days, and when
the run slows down they can work along with the fish that are in the traps. If they
get more than they can use they can open the traps and let the fish go. It is better
in that way ; they can get fish fresh all the time. I know of my knowledge that they
are increasing their capacity to a great extent over there, more than doubling it. They
use filling machines that we do not use at all, but the fish are cheaper, and their output
is sold cheaper than ours in the market. Machine filled fish have to be sold cheaper ;
they do not turn out so well as the fish that are filled into cans by hand. There was a
limit to the number of licenses on the Fraser River at one time ; I think it was five
hundred boats. Then there were ten or twelve canneries. The license was .§20 then.
I think it went as high as i|50 one year. They were allowed forty licenses to a cannery
at one time, and five hundred to the river, so that the canneries did not have a monopoly
of it. They could limit the number of licenses, but they could not limit the number of
canneries. Licenses could only be granted to a British subject. Something has been
done by the canning industry here to prevent the depletion of the salmon. Something

138 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

has been proposed about limiting the number of traps on the other side. If something
is not done soon they will catch at least three-fourths of the salmon that ought to come
to the Fraser River : tliat is my opinion upon it, unless there is some restriction put
upon thj number of traps there wUl be depletion of the salmon. I do not think there
are so many here just now trying to build new eainieries, although there are some of
them at it yet. ilachinery for canning purposes is in use for an a\erage of two months
I expect. The earning power of the macliinery in any branch of the business must be
taken out of it in two months.

Japanese are about tlie same as whites in tlie way of catching fish.

I expect the cost of production now compared with ten years ago is about double
what it was then. The cost of catching fish is more expensive, because the fishermen
have to have more expensive boats to go to sea after the fish. In the river they use
cheaper nets.

I do not say there are not enough Chinese here, but I do not saj^ there are enough.
There was a time a few years ago when I was not able to take care of tlie fish for five
or six days, when I expected to put up nearly one-half of the pack.

Four years ago salmon fishing on the Sound was only new. The Americans have
more efl'ective appliances and fish all the time. The fish are afforded some protection
here. AVe can only touch the fisli in the river witliin the tidal waters.

The demand for fishermen has been unlimited for the last four years, but the
question is the putting up of the price of fish. This last fall, tlie market in Great Britain
came down, showing that tlie fish are not going so rapidly into consumption. The price
went up in a panic and then it came down all at once. It is impossible for nie to say
whether there are too many fishermen on the river or not. I do not know whether
there should be any restriction on Chinese and Japanese coming here. I do not think
they are pouring in in increased numbers. Last vear a great many came in, but that
stopped. They found that it was not so pleasant as they thought.

Over-crowding will cure itself. It is a case of the survival of the fittest. It is so
in all other industries. But for cheap labour I do not tliink there would be so many
canneries in existence. Unless you had a population of five or six millions in British
Columbia it would be impossible at that particular season of tlie j-ear to draw the men
from the ordinary labour of the country to supply the canneries. You cannot get white
men to come liere and run chances of getting work after the fishing season is over, when
there are abundant opportunities for them getting steady work elsewhere all the year
round. Take the 1.50 men in the cannery and increase their wages bj' one-half, and you
would stop the industry altogether. !More than three-quarters of the inside work is done
by Chinese. The cost of their labour is less than the other quarter of whites. If can-
neries cease operations the country will feel it. Japanese take the place of Norwegians
and Swedes, wlio now fish on the Sound. Canneries have made no money since 1897.
Tlie cost of production increases every year. The Sound fishing increases all the time.
The canneries here made more money before the Japanese came than they have done
.since.

In a big run there is a limit put to each boat. When a thing is looked upon as
prosperous, people rush into it, and it is overdone : then with cheap labour it is over-
done. The continuance of cheap labour cannot make it worse. They have stopped
coming now, and they are getting out of here as fast as they can, a great many of them
going where they can do better. If the cost of production becomes greater, then a great
many cannaries must go out of existence. It does not matter whether it is from the
.scarcity, or the cost of labour, or an\i:hing else.

Hand filled cans sell higher than those filled by machinery. I think there are two
many canneries, and I consider there are too many fishermen. The number of canneries
necessitates a large number of fishermen, and if there were any serious reduction of
fishermen, those canneries would have a greater shortage of fish than they have now.
The question really is one of competition. The price of fish has steadily increased each
year. You require to have enough salmon go to the spawning grounds in order to keep
up your supply of fish. The fish that have their home on the Fraser river are just as

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 139

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

plentiful as heretofore, and the fisli caught on the Puget Sound are undoubtedly salmon
making for the Fraser River. Fishing is more or less of a gambling transaetion.

Q. Do _you think there is any method to be secured by legislation limiting the num-
ber of fishermen on one side and of canners on the other ? — A. It would be very unsatis-
factory. It is business and business should not be controlled by legislation, but by tlie
profit that may be in it. I do not agree with limitation of the number of fishermen or
the limitation of the number of canneries.

A great many of the fishermen are dead broke all the time. Some of them have
saved a good deal of money on the Fraser river. There was never a time in this Pro-
vince when w^hite people were available for doing the labour inside the canneries.
B}' the introduction of machinery we have had to employ more high class labour. It
turns out the k)w class of oriental labour and brings in a high class of white labour to
look after the machines. Supposing the canneries went out of existence for some reason
or other, the country in general would suffer, and the canneries would have a lot of
plant and machinery that would be useless, but the whole country would suffer in con-
setjuence of arresting the flow of money. Under existing circumstances the canneries
could not be carried on without oriental labour. Within the last three or four yeari^
they could not exist without Japanese fishermen. Most of the Norwegian and Swede
fishermen on the other side have their homes there.

Eveiy one does not get the same price. The run was so short last year that the
price of fish rose in the English market about $2 a case. Last year was not a remunera-
tive one. The year before in a majority of cases it simply held its own. For some
years past some have held tlieir own, others have gone behind, very few have made one
per cent. Even 1897 was not a profitable year. The price fell considerably. There
was an immense catch in 1897. There was a large waste of fisli then.

The ultimate result in my private opinion will be to deplete the fish coming to the
river if the fishing continues the .same way on the Sound. Four years ago the fishing
there was very limited, but now with inci'eased facilities there, the tendency is towai'ds
depleting the river of fish.

Before the Japanese came here we had a great number of fishermen from the State
of Washington. I said the industry was overdone. I cannot have said there were too
many fishermen. While there are so many canneries they want more fishermen. The
fishermen do not come from the Sound now as they did before, but they would come I
have no doubt if they could get work. If the number of canneries were reduced there
would not be so many fisliermen wanted unless the canneries were to double their capa-
city. If the number of fishermen were reduced by one half, leaving the canneries as
they are, the effect would be that the canneries to run properly and get a reasonable
intei'est on the money invested would have to reduce the price of fish.

The cainieries would pay as much for fish if the markets would allow them. I was
pretty successful for many years. We had no Japanese then. I would like to see that
return. I was then putting up fish that cost me SI 2 a ease to put them up, and I was
perfectly satisfied if I got $16 or •'?20 for them. The price of fish then was about one-
half a cent a fish. The market price for our product was much higher then.

If restriction were enforced I would have to stand it. I would submit to it grace-
fully.

140

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Exhibit 52.

Memorandum re Wages paid by Ewen k Co., New Westminster, to Employees,
1897 to 1900, inclusive :—

CHINESE.

Month.

April . . .

May

June

July...

August .

I No.

men.

1897.

April

May

June

July

Augusjt . . .
September

18E)8.

April

May

June .....

July

August. . .

1899.

May

June

July

August. .
September

1900.

45
45
45
155
159
53

116

122

146

12
30
30
63

A^■erage

time per man

per month.

Average
monthly earn-
ings per man.

16 days .
13 „ .
22i „ .
16' „ .
23i M .
20 „ .

14A

16"

2U
9i"
6
16

cts.

23 38
18 93
31 71

24 27
35 77
30 12

2 75

33 06

34 12
8 67

19 70

7 14

9 50

10 96

22 00

25 40

3 33
33 09
16 26

9 56
22 69

Total wages
paid for month

5 cts.

1,052 10
851 85
1,426 75
3,761 85
5,687 43
1,596 36

Average for Season.

14,376 54

24 75
1,256 28
1,290 56
1,1X15 72
2,285 20

.5,868 51

28 56

332 50

1,337 12

3,212 00

1,117 60

6,027 78

39 96

992 70

487 80

602 28

1,928 65

Per day of 10 hours, -SI. 48.
Per month of 26 days, •S38.54.

4,051 39

Per day of 10 hours, SI . 44.
Per month of 26 days, S37.58.

Per day of 10 hours, .SI. 51.
' Per month of 26 days, S39.39.

Per day of 10 hours, .SI 54.
^ Per month of 26 days, $40.15.

WHITE MEN.

Year.

•

No.

men.

Average ,j,otal wages
time per man p^jj for sS^son.
for season. ''

Average per man

for month

of 26 days.

1897

1898

1899

1900

19
21
30
20

h\ mouths . . .

•S cts.
8,316 23
7,950 51
7,720 95
8,091 71

.S cts.

79 58
75 71
77 21

80 91

Note. — White men are paid from $40 to §100 per month and board — above figures include board at
S12 per month. Chinese are paid for actual time worked only, and in all cases board themselves. Tlieir
wages vary from 'S35 to $75 per month.

OiV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

MEMO. RE COST OF PACKING.

141

Pack.

Chinese labour
per ease.

White labour
per case.

Steamers
cost per case.

Total.

1897

1898

1899

1900

Cases.

39,131

10,005

18,789

6,105

36 cents. . .
584 " •■
32 „ . .
66 M . .

21J cents. .
79 „ . .
41 „ . .

•SI 324 „ . .

64 cents. .

25 „ . ,
13 „ . .

41 .. .,

S cts.
63i

1 624
86

2 394

Note. — Salmon packs for 1897, 1898 and 1899 were all cases of 48 one-i-iound cans.

Pack for 190<1 consisted of 3,210 cases, containing 48 one-pound cans and 2,895 cases containing 96 one-
iialf pound cons, the latter of which entail nearly double the amount of labour necessary to pack one-
pound cans.

E.xPEXDiTURE foi- boxes, lumber and Machinery from 1897 to 1900 by Ewen & Co.,
New Westmin.ster, B.C. : —

1897— Sawmills $6,295 53

Machine shops 940 56

,f 7,236 09

1898— Sawmills 2,539 38

Machine shops 1,274 68

3,814 06

1899— Sawmills 2,767 29

Machine shops 799 27

3,566 56

1900— Sawmills 1,949 04

Machine shops 2,442 51

4,391 55

119,008 24

Two steamers, employing seven to eight men, are run in connection witli our
cannery at a cost of S2,500 each season, wages of whom are not^ included in amount
paid to white men. '

Mar Chan, Chinese contractor, of Victoria, says ; I am a cannery contractor, —
contract by the case. I employ ray men b}' the month and pay from $50 to $60 a month
for can-makers. In one cannery probably thirty are employed making cans. I contract
with three canneries on the Fraser and three on the Skeena River. Last year I em-
ployed 180 men in the three canneries on the Fraser. I also emploj^ Indians to help a.s
well. I employed eighty men for can-making. The cans are made at the cannery before
the season opens. The tin is owned by the canneryman and brought there. Everything
in the way of machinery and material is owned by the canneryman. When the fish
commence to run we try to employ all the Indians we can get for cleaning the fish and
for miscellaneous work around there, such as carrying the cans from the can loft to the
fish fillers. The lowest wage paid is $37.50. I lost money last year. It was a bad
year. I employ no whites. Out of a total of 180 Chinese emplo3red I cannot remember
now how many are married. There may be a few.

Q. Would you \enture to swear there are five out of the lot ? — A. Yes.

Q. How do you know : who are they ? — A. Mar Sue is one — I cannot remember
the others.

142 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The contract price per case has decreased. The price now is cheaper than
formerl}-. They have more machinery now used in the canneries than formerly.
In the ordinary work the machine has taken the place of the ordinary work and the
men emplo\'ed in these places are experts in their lines. There is a competition among
the cannery contractor.s to get the experts, which has a tendency to raise the wages. I
furnish the men with provisions. The workmen in the canneries of course get their pro-
visions from my firm. The wages paid to Chinese ten years ago in the cannery business
was much less than now. Wages have been getting higher every year. A great many
have gone away from here, going to other places. A great many have gone to the
American side. There is more work and better pay over there. There they have a
longer period of work than they have here. The wages are probably about the same,
but the length of labour would be longer there than here. Over there they put up every
kind of fish that comes along and they have no close season.

The men get an advance before they go to the canneries. In the first lot of them
— that is the men who go to make the cans — they get from $40 to S50 advanced before
they go to the cannery. The second lot of men that go got an advance of from .$.30 to
840 last year. If they do not get it they won't go. That is the custom of the men
going. If the fish do not come they cannot make any money unless I pay that money.
I do not get it back. It is not marked a debt : it onh- holds for that season. I get
men to work in the canneries from the labouring class — men who woi'k in the gardens
— anybody I can get.

Q. Is it because these men refuse to leave their places of employment and take the
chances of the canning business, you have to make this advance ? — A. Yes, they have to
be paid in advance before they quit their employment to go to the canneiy.

The contract price for canning salmon is about five cents cheaper per case on the
American side than on this side. They fill fish by machinery.

Q. How much do the Chinese get on the American side where they have filling
machines ? — A. Those who have filling machines are one cent or two cents cheaper per
case.

Q. Outside of the filling machines what would be the difference 1 — A. Thej- have
got machines for cutting the fish and chopping the fish different from what thej' have
liere.

Q. Haven't they a machine for that purpose on the Fraser river 1 — A. The machine
over there is quite diflerent from that they have here.

Q. How much is the difference in labour on the case ] — A. It is a difference of two
cents on the case.

XoTE. — It was explained by the canners, that filling machines were not generally
used on the Fraser because it could not be done by machinery as nicely and well as by
hand, and the hand-filled cans commanded a higher price in the market.

Q. Have you to guarantee a certain amount of money ? — A. The first lot of them
some hav'e to be guaranteed four months' work and some in' thS .second lot had to be
guaranteed two months' work.

Q. Does the cannery proprietor advance you this money to pay the advance to the
men f — A. Yes, thev pay part of the advance ; they pay certain sums for that purpose,
but it is not a sum that will co\"er the total advance.

Q. If you should advance more than the men can pay back who is the loser, you or
the cannery p>roprietor ? — A. I would lose the money.

Q. If there were not many fish would you lose the money or the cannery proprietor ]
— A. The canners would lose and the contractor would lose. The canners would come
back on me for the advance they had made me.

Q. Do you mean to say you guarantee so much work for the men and have all the
margin of money between what you pay the men and the money you get from the
canner 1 — A. We generally figure to make a margin of profit out of the pro\'isions we
■sell to them.

Q. I suppose then the chance of losing on the advance is made up by the price on
the proWsions ? — A. And also the prospect of a good run of fish, and making a big pack.
That gives me some profit.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 143

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The way it is done is this : all the provisions sent to the caniieiy are ordered by the
foreman and then at the end of the month it is averaged and all pay pro rata. It is the
same in the canneries where they employ their own help directly. At Bell-Irving'.s
cannery they pay their men in the same way. They work it on the same principle in
other canneries like Bell-Irving's, where they get paid directly. It is all thrown
in together and at the end of each week the)' average to each man.

Q. Do the)' deduct that amount from the men's wages ? — A. When the pay i-oll is
made out the boarding house bill is deducted from the wages. The wages are then paid
to each indi\ idual.

Henry O. Bell-Irving, of Vancouver, said : I represent the Anglo-British Columbia
Packing Company. We have six canneries on the Fraser River, one on the Rivers
Inlet, two on the Skeena River, and then we have two in Alaska and one on Puget
Sound.

On the Fraser River last year we employed from seven to eight hundred men inside
the canneries, and up to a thousand, possibly twelve hundred. That would be a fair
average during the busiest season. The number varies with the season.

Of the twelve hundred, about one hundred and eight)' are whites, probably three
hundred are Indian women, and the rest are Chinese. The capacity of our canneries is
from 140,000 to 1.50,000 cases per season. 1897 was probably the nearest approach to
our full capacity, when I think our pack was 120,000 cases.

At two of the canneries on the Fraser River inside work is done Ijy day labour.
It is done by contract in the others. The Chinese contractors hire their help in their
own way ; we do not generally inquire how. Approximately their wages vary from
835 to $4:0 a month. They board themselves. Indian women are paid by piece work,
as a rule, for filling cans. They earn from a dollar to a dollar and a quarter a day,
sometimes more. The_y are hired by the Chinese contractor. Scarcely anj' Japanese
and Indians are employed inside the canneries. The proportion of whites to Japanese
and Indians employed in and about the canneries is about the same. We employ fewer
Chinese on the Skeena, and there is a larger number of Indians and Indian women
inside the canneries. We employ there about seventy-five Chinamen in each cannery,
about fifteen white men and seventy-fi\e Indians, male and female.

At Rivers Inlet we employ ninety Chinamen and about the same number of
Indians, male and female, inside the cannery.

The wages at these places for inside work is about the same as at Fraser River,
only we have to pay their fares up there.

In Alaska last year we employed one hundred and twenty Chinese, one hundred
and sixty Indians and about twenty whites, inside the factory proper. In our Puget
Sound cannery we ha\e from one hundred and eighty to two hundred Chinese inside the
cannery, and in the busy season we have probably fifty whites and say one hundred
Indians additi(jiial. The work is done by contract, about twenty per cent lower than
in British Columbia. This is accounted for by the fall pack being so large and the
.season longer. Wages to whites there is about the same as in British Columbia, but
the season being longer, and the pack larger, the cost per case is very much less. We
hire white men there by the season.

Everything here is done with a rush, and costs more than in the United States.
Frequently the cost over there is a little more than one-half what it is in British
Columbia. Materials are cheaper also.

We had not enougli labour to take care of all the fish in 1897. We had all the
plant and appliances on hand that was necessary, everything excepting labour. The
demand for it that year was abnormal owing to the heavy run. In ordinary years labour
is getting more difficult to obtain. It has necessitated more machinery being employed,
though we pay about practically the same for labour per case and we make advances in
cash before any work is done. The advances practically fall upon us because none of
the men are very responsible. We have one contractor for each cannery. The princi-
pals reside in Victoria. The contracts are usually drawn up in the names of a working
partner and a sleeping partner. The first has no means as a rule, and the other is
supposed to have, although it is often found that he has not got any. It occurs

144 REPORT Oy ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

freqiiently that they do not get the labour we require. Our season is so short that if
we miss a day or two out of the run it is a great loss to us, and we have to keep a large
number of men on hand so as to cope with an emergency. The sharp demand for men
does not begin until the beginning of July. We employ fewer Chinese now than seven
years ago, but we have been compelled to employ more machinery and pay the Chinese
the same per case for doing the work.

The ease with which labour would be obtained may have had to do with the rapid
increase in the number of canneries. Labour was certainly more easily obtained in
former years than now. There were larger profits made a few years ago than now or
ever likely to be made again. If there are too many canneries it will mean the survival
of the fittest. A considerable portion of the pack is represented by certain fixed
charges which go on whether the run is good or bad, managers' salaries, steamboat
services, insurance and other charges that amount up in an alarming way.

Our wliite labour bill in 1 900, independent of managers' salaries, amounted to 92 cents
a case ; added to this is 16 cents per case for the messhouse bill, whereas the Chinese
labour bill was 81 .01 a case. In other words, out of the $7.16 a case at that cannery,
tlie Chinese labour bill was $1 .01 or one-seventh of the whole, and probably L'5 per cent
of the amount was paid b^' the Chinese contractor to the labour he employed, such as
Indians, both men and women. At another cannery the white labour bill was $1 . 20
per case as against !^8y*(j cents for Chinese labour. Of course last year's figures were
quite exceptional. In 1897 the white labour bill was 33^*5 cents as against Chinese
labour 83 cents. These figures cover an exceptionally good run and a poor one. The
percentage of the cost of labour paid to the Chinese varies a little to the total cost of
the pack. It varies from 13i in 1900, 15| in 1899 and 17 J in 1896. A great deal
depends on the run of fish, but the fixed charges go on.

Take the pack for the big year, that is for 1897, 1,015,477 cases, the approximate
cost of which is !|3,572,800. Out of that I figure that $964,656 represents material
manufactured elsewhere than in British Columbia. Seventeen per cent represents the
the amount paid to the Chinese labour contractor, and I think 5 per cent of the 17 per
cent represents the payment by the Chinese to their Indian employees, leaving 12 per
cent actuall}- earned by the Chinese themselves. That represents earnings by the Chinese
of $428,736, and the earnings of the employees of the Chinese $178,640. The balance,
50 per cent, of the total cost of production was $2,000,768. That represents the sum
of money practically distributed in British Columbia for all sorts of material, labour,
machinery, steamboat service, insurance, lumber and everything in fact produced in
British Columbia.

Other things being equal, we would prefer to employ whites. I do not tliink it is
a good thing to increase the restriction tax on Chinese from $50 to $100, or to have any
restriction put upon the labour of the country. We must ha\e cheap labour for produc-
tion, where we have to compete in foreign markets, or to be forced out of the markets
eutii'ely. Being in a position to employ cheap labour enables us to give good pay to a
large number of good men, high class men. If there were no Chinese to be had the
industrv would lie idle to a large extent. They receive a very small portion of the cost
of production, and yet they are an important factor in the industry. The cost of produc-
tion fluctuates more than his wages amount to. I think the industry has reached very
nearly its maximum in British Columbia. We are suffering from competition among the
canners, and we are suft'ering from a scarcity of Chinese labour.

The pack would be restricted enormously if we were to employ all white labour, or
we would have to close up entirely. Supposing further restrictions were introduced, as
long as we had the present supply of cheap labour we could get along. I believe white
labour in British Columbia would be greatly benefitted by a large number of Chinese in
the country. The conditions of life would be very much easier in the development of
our resources if white men and tlieir families had servants like the Chinese to do the
dirtv work for them. I think it is the destiny of the white men to be worked for by
the inferior races.

The canneries do not suppl)' a place foi- a labourer witli a family to start in this
province, but there is other work in the country. My view is that for the time being it

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMKIRATION 145

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

would be better to liave the places requiring unskilled labour filled with Chinese, than to
have them filled with white people, and reserve the higher places for the whites. I think
it better that thej' should be emplo_yed rather than that we should not have the indus-
tries established. A great many of the white men go to the mines, anrl then cheap
labour comes in in the form of the Chinaman. The wliite labour does not come in, so
the difficulty goes on increasing. The presence of the Chinese cheap laboui- here enables
industries to go on that would otherwise be impossible, and the country is benefittinf in
consequence.

No cannery on the coast has ever successfully employed exclusively white labour.
The Chinese are steady in their habits, reliable in their work and reliable to make con-
tracts with. They won't strike while you have a big pile of fish on your dock. They
are less trouble and less expense than whites. They are content with rough accom-
modation at the canneries. If yon employ white people you have to put up substantial
buildings with every modern appliance, only to be occupied six weeks in the year. The
canneries draw upon all other industries for their Chinese labour. Quite a few domestics
come to work.

Exclusion would make the conditions very acute within the next few years. The
Chinamen would go home and die off. I do not think there is any reason for exclusion
just now. I know there is no reason for any extension of the canneries, and if the present
number of Chinese would be preserved, I believe the industry could be maintained. I
believe that if traps were employed fewer men would be necessary, and the white men
would receive much better pay. We will employ Chinamen just the same inside the
canneries.

I believe free trade in labour for some time to come would be the best policy. I
would like to see all restrictions taken off the Chinese. I have resided in Canada since
1882. I would like to see the country settled by white people, but I do not think it
possible just now. The Chinese will remain a race apart. They will never assimilate,
and it is not desirable that they should. I look upon them as steam engines or any
other machine, the introduction of which deprives men of some particular employment,
but in the long run, it enormously increases the employment. The Chinese standard of
li\ing is not comparable at all with that of the white man. I know white men would
not care to live as they do.

At Astoria, Oregon, where they have a population of eight or ten thousand white
peojile, they employ almost entirely Chinese for the same work as we do. There are prob-
ably about six thousand Chinese in the canneries in British Columbia. The few
weeks a white man would be employed in the camiery would not make it possible for a
white man to start a family upon.

Prior to 189.5 the salmon industry on Pugefc Sound was very limited indeed, but it
grew very rapidly afterwards. The packs for three years were as follow : —

1898. 1899. 1900.

Puget Sound .355,000 871,500 432,000

Fraser River 256,000 510,000 316,000

The pack on Puget Sound was divided amongst seventeen canneries as against
forty-eight on Fraser River.

. Filling machines work more satisfactorily if the fish are fresh, as from trap fishing.
No filling machines are used in this vicinit}^. Fraser River packers ha^^e found it to
their advantage to keep up the quality of the pack by carefully hand-filling the cans.
Machines are used in Alaska and some on Puget Sound, but if we used them we would
have to take so much less for our fish, though by using them we could dispense with a
great deal of labour.

The Automatic Can Company saves Chinese labour, but canners, to make sure of
the advance to the Chinese and to keep them through the season, prefer to pay a
premium to them in order to have them on hand during packing operations. 12i cents
are allowed to Chinese when the cans are made at the cannery. I think the c-ost for
labour at the Automatic Can Company is about five cents a case. The capacity of our
54—10

116 REPORT OF ROYAL COilMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

canneries in British Columbia is about 13,600 cases a day. The cost of our j)lant to in-
sure that production would not be less than $360,000.

We tind that day labour costs more than contracting inside the cannery. The
Chinese boss can obtain better results than we can with the same men. Undouhtedlv
if there was an abundance of labour for the inside work of the canneries we could handle
a great many more fish and pay better prices for them. In July and August I would
place the number of people engaged directly in the business in British Columbia at from
20,000 to 25,000 full grown men and women. Harvesting happens about tlie same
time. The summer months are the best in almost every line of business. A small pro-
portion of the fishermen bring their famiHes with them, excepting the Indians, ^^'hite
women would not care to camp out under the conditions that exist during the fishing
season. Almost everybody in the province is either directly or indirectly interested in
the canneries.

I think the Chinese are particularly adapted to the canning industry. I cannot
well conceive conditions, that the canneries can bring about at the present time more
favourable to the white men of the country without stifling the bu.siness itself. We are
able to carry on the industry with the aid of the Chinese, which would not exist other-
wise.

If it were not for the competition of the Alaska canneries with their cheaper fish,
the canneries in British Columbia would be pretty well otf. The canneries of British
Columbia could easily put up two million cases if the fish were there.

I do not think the whites are being replaced b}' the Chinese. As a practical fact
the canners have not found it possible to employ wliites for that class of work. The
Chinese make very good wages. I do not know what the views of other canner.s are in
respect to immigration.

We put up an especially high grade of goods on the Fraser and spend a great deal
of extra labour in doing so, to fill a special market in England.

The average number of fishermen connected with our canneries would be from nine
hundred to a thousand men. About half of the fishermen are white men : the balance
are Japanese and Indians ; probably a little more of the balance are Japanese.

On the Skeena we employ about 150 fishermen ; that is, net men and boat pullers,
chiefly Indians. Of them, there are perhaps thirty white men at each place, and twenty-
five Japanese all told. Indian labour is becoming scarce.

At Rivers Inlet we have about 220 net men and boat pullers. Of these, about 40
are white men, about 40 Japanese, and the rest are Indians. Last year was the first
year we employed Japanese to any extent.

The fishing in Alaska is all done by seining, at which we employ about sixty or
seventy men. We supply the gear, and the men are paid so much a fish. There is a
larger quantity of fall fish packed there than altogether in British Columbia. Respon-
sible men are paid high wages there, probably 890 a month.

Fishing on Puget Sound is clone principally by traps by all white labour, which is
very well paid. We cannot really call them fishermen. They are cutting piles and
driving them wth steam pile drivers, running steamers, itc. Gill nets are used very
little there. We employ no gill nets, whatever, although we buy a few fish from the
gill net men. Trap fishing is licensed by the Fish Commissioner, for which we pay §50
a trap. The traps are placed in navigable water. Any American individual or corpor^
ation, formed or established under the laws of the State of W^ashington is entitled to use
three traps. Their size varies very much ; some are 2,000 feet in length ; 1,200 would
be a fair average. There is no exact width.

It is a system of continuous fishing, and at the same time a sort of warehousing them,
keeping them alive. I hardly think the work could be done by the Japanese. The
piles are taken out every year. Some traps are very costly. The average first cost
would be about §3,000, and including the cost of operating it, and wear and tear, about
§4,000 for one season. The difierence in cost is in getting a good or bad location. Much
experimenting has to be done to get a place where traps lay down properly, and where
the piles may be driven to advantage, and to provide against them being washed away
by a heavy tide. Our total expenditure on seventeen traps last year, including the

ox CHINESE A. VI) JAPANESE IMAlIURATIOy 147

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

labour in connection with them was $97,000 ; that included three traps on the British
side at Boundary Bay, which we have operated for some time under a license. This will
be our sixth year on Puget Sound.

Fishermen in Northern Alaska can catch 1,500 fish a day with one-third the nett-
ing we use on the Frasei' Ri\er.

In 1896 the average cost of fish at four canneries was $2.07 a ease. The average
c ist on Puget Sound the same year was $1.0.5 a ca.se. In 1897 fish were the lowest I
have ever known. On the Fraser River fish cost on an average at four canneries about
95 cents a case. On Puget Sound the cost was 8-t cents, but owing to the very large
number of fish we caught and could not U'^e there, we had to liberate them. Labour
was not obtainable. On the Fra'-er the price started at ten cents per fish, eight cents
after a while, and I daresay some off lots at odd times for five or six cents. We calcu-
late about twelve and a half fish to the case. The fish are smaller in big runs. In 1898
the difference in cost per case in favour of Puget Sound was 80 cents ; in 1899 about '14
cents ; in 1900 it was in favour of Fraser River by about $1.13.

Alaska is a great factor. There must have been twelve or fifteen new canne-
ries put up there this year in addition to additions put to others. In 1897, if there had
been more Chinese we should have given employment to more white men outside in
fishing. There were very few Japanese then. In a big year the cost of fish is a gi'eat
factor.

The parties who interested themseh'es in Puget Sound in the first instance were
British Columbia packers. The industry has been driven very largely across to Puget
Sound because they are not hampered with so many restrictions there as to fishery regu-
lationSi etc. They saw a chance of getting more fish there and getting them cheaper by
the use of traps. They have no close season there.

The crew for a trap consists of five or six men, who get $50 or $60 a month each
and board. Two extensive traps might keep a cannery going, or it might take ten. In
early days on the Fraser River forty boats would catch enough fish to supply a cannery.
It has become necessary to employ one hundred boats now. Traps would alter the
situation very much. Fewer men would be employed, and they would become more,
mechanics than fishermen. You can do better with traps. The fish can be kept alive
for a few days before they are required. If, as has happened on se\'eral occasions, an
enormous run of fish has come, and we cannot use them all, it" is possible to open the
trap and let the fish go. These are not destroyed ; whereas catching fish with gill nets
you cannot keep them long, and great care has to be exercised in the selecticm of fish
brought in by gill net boats. If traps were used I think entirely white labour would be
employed, as at present on Puget Sound. By them we could dispense with a great many
fishermen, but to adopt them immediately would constitute a hardship and an injur}"- to
the fishermen. I look upon trap fishing as being the scientific method of catching
salmon for the market.

I should think $65 would be a fair figure to allow for the depreciation of the value
of a boat and net for a season. We pay now about $77 for a round bottom boat,
whereas we used to buy flat -bottomed skiffs for from .$25 to $35. Canners frequently
commence the season by paying a figure for fish which they know will result in a loss to
them just to get the work started.

The average fisherman on the Skeena catches more fish than on the Fraser. The
average number of fishermen on the Skeena is a little smaller per cannery, and the
canners there do not prepare such large packs. We pay 20 cents a fish on the Fraser,
10 cents a fish on the Skeena, and in Alaska from 1 cent to 8 cents a fish. We catch
them in our own traps on Puget Sound.

Fish kept in traps begin to suffer after three days. Regulations for close time
could be easier enforced with traps, and they would be better for the spawning grounds.
That is clearly proved, I think, by the number of fish that go up the river on Monday
morning. During a heavj^ run you are able to liberate the superfluous fish from the
traps. Personally I believe it would be in the interests of both canners and fishermen
if an arrangement could be made to reduce the number of boats on the Fraser River. I
have seen 15,000 fish taken out of a trap in forty minutes. The trap has as great an
54— lOi-

148 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

advantage over net fishing as an express train over a wlieel-barrow. I have known of
one boat earning 8200 a day on the Fraser River.

We made heavy losses on Puget Sound last year. We lo.st money on the Fraser
for the last three year.s. In the world's market we have to compete with a cheaper
production in Alaska. There the fish cost very little. They can produce at 82. 2-5 to
82.50 per case delivered in San Francisco. It is practically the same fish, but not as
good as the Fraser River or Skeena fish. The Alaska fish finds a market in the United
States chiefly. From 450,000 to 500,000 cases of Alaska fish go to the United King-
dom. They do not command as good a pi-ice as the Fraser River fish, because of our
pack being of such a good class. The average difference in the market price would, I
think, be from Is. 6d. to 2s. 6d. a case in the English market. Alaska is our chief com-
petitor, although Puget Sound is i-unning it pretty close. Puget Sound can take a good
place with Fraser River. The difference in cost on the Fraser River on an average over
Puget Sound per case was, in 1896, 89 cents ; in 1897, (that was a big run) the differ-
ence was 13 cents; in 1898, about 81.26; in 1899, about 81.90; in"'l900, about 68
cents. The average market value of sock-eyes is a very dilticult question to answer.
After the shortage was kno^v^l last year the price went away up, to 27s. 6d. from 22s.

Most people sold in advance last year and lost severely in consequence. As a rule
they sell partly in advance and hold partly for the future. I do not think people can
sell at all just now ; there is no business offering. We sell British Columbia salmim in
Canada, Australia and the United Kingdom. Our Alaska and Puget Sound output we
sell in the United States and the United Kingdom. The cost of fish was less prior to
1897.

As an inducement for white labour to come here we cannot pay a trifle more; as we
depend upon conditions we cannot control. The market does not depend on whether
you employ Chinese or not.

British Columbia, under favourable circumstances, may furnish 1,000,000 cases out
of a total pack for the coast of 3,500,000. The Canadian market takes from 80,000 to
100,000 cases.

Frank Burnett, of Vancouver, President of the United Canners' Company, Limited,
said : I have been connected with the cannery business for four years. Production by
oui- company last year about 50,000 cases. We employ from 200 to 600 Chinese. AVe
do not employ any Chinese, except the cook, except by contract. We contract with one
man to make the cans and fill them and prepare them for shipment. The contractor is
a Chinaman. He employs Indian women by the month. I do not know what the
Chinamen under him earn per day. We let the contract by bargain.

We contract that women altogether shall be employed for the cleaning of the fish.
As a matter of fact we supply them and charge them to the contractor. We can get the
women better than he can. They do the work of cleaning the fish better than Chinese.
We have been able to get enough Indian women to do that work. We have three can-
neries, two two years old and one three years old. The Chinese make the cans, fill them,
solder them, cook them, lacquer them and fill them into the cases. We have fi^•e white
men in each canneiy, perhaps eight or twelve in each. All canneries do not pay alike to
the boss Chinaman. The work is done a little cheaper since we have used machinery.
White men could do the work of the Chinese in the canneries. With a little experience
I think he could do the work as well as the Chinaman. I do not think he could do it as
cheaply. Chinese are very clever at it. If a Chinaman takes the contract he gets
Chinese to do the work. The boss Chinaman has not had any dilficulty that I know of
so far in getting sufiicient Chuiamen.

The Chinese have nothing to do with catching the fish. We have never tried to
get white men to do the work of Chinese. I do not think the white men are here in
sufiicient numbers to do the work, and be out of emplo\mient the rest of the time. I do
not know where you could get employment for the immense number of men employed
for the fishing season in the forty canneries on the Fraser River.

If no more Chinese came in we would have no difliculty in getting all we want.
The Chinese who are here ai'e the ones we want. If there was exclusion there would be
no difliculty at the present time, but there would be in the future ; that would depend

6».V OHiyE.i!E AND J A PANESE IMMI6RA TION 149

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

upon the iiiDi'tality of the Cliiiiese here. 8entimentally I am in favour of restriction,
but from a business point of view I would favour it to a certain e.xteiit. The increase
of a tax from ."550 to iJlOO I do not think amounts to anything. I think a higher poll
tax would be advi.sable. I would not absolutely exclude the Chinese, but it would pre-
vent such a large number coming in. I am inclined to think too many have come in.
What to suggest is hard to say ; $300 I think would certainly tend to keep a large
number from coming in, tend to decrease the number. I do not think it would keep
them from coming in altogether. Exclusion would alFect us very soon ; some die, and
some go back to China. Our contractor tells us he had difficulty in getting all the
Chinese lie wanted. It was not to his interest to sav so. It might be his interest to
say so while the Commission Is sitting. My idea is that the equilibrium obtains now, —
that there is enough here now, but I would restrict increase to a certain number coming
in, so as to supply the demand. Sentimentally I prefer exclusion. I would certainly
rather see the counti'V developed by white labour. I think that would be desirable,
because the Chinaman does not assimilate. He is a foreigner all the time. It is not
desirable that they should assimilate. Those who pretend to assimilate and pretend to
belong to churches are far worse than those who do not profess to be conx'erted. Their
profession of conversion in nearly e^ ery ca.se is hypocrisy. They become tremendous
rascals, when they pretend to become Christians. An unconverted Chinaman is gener-
ally houe.st, and can alwaj-s be relied on to keep a contract. The more converted a
Chinaman becomes the worse he becomes. As to the character- of Chinese for honesty,
with the exception of those who pretend to be converted, I have found no better people
a,s regards honesty, for keeping their contracts. I think thev are far ahead of the Japa-
nese as regards the keeping their contracts. The Chinaman will keep a contract whether
he wins or loses by it as far as possible.

The English market is our principal market. We do not control the trade by any
means ; our great competitor is Alaska in the English and Australian markets. I know
that they can sell fish cheaper than we can. The price of fish in the English market
varies very much. I think there are not enough white men and Indians to do the fish-
ing t)ii the river. I do not think there are too many nets on the river. In the heavy
runs there were more fish caught than could be saved.

The position taken that if there were a fewer number of boats the fishermen would
catch more to the boat, is theory. There has been no opportunity to prove that yet.
The boss never complained of any scarcit}' of Chinese labour. On account of the strike
last year the Chinese wgre idle half the time.

We cannot pay the same price for fish one year as another. If there is a pack of
600,000 cases on the Eraser river we are not going to get the same price in England as
if there were only 200,000 cases put up. It is a case of supply and demand. The price
went away up when it was found that the pack was a failure last j^ear, and it would
have gone down if the pack had lieen a great success. The price has gone down from 38s.
to 28s. 6d. for half pound flats. During the strike it went up 8 shillings in a week or two
weeks ; that would mean an adx'ance of 20 cents a fish ; of course that was phenomenal.
The extent of the I'un and the fluctuation of the market is one of the difficulties in respect
of the trouble in fixing the price. You can no more make the price more continuous or
more steady, than you can arrange for the price of wheat or any other commodity to be
more .steady. I have sold out almost completely. I have made no money in it. To-day
I ha^-e practically no canner}' stock at all, and I am glad, too. I think a great many I
have met have been no more fortunate than I have been. There have been no failures,
but many are in the hands of the banks and the banks have to carry them. There must
cei'tainly be a certain number of people to take care of the fish of the canneries, but not
necessarily Chinese. The Chinese are necessary at the present time, because I do not
think there is white labour enough available. There is a parallel case in Manitoba.
When the wheat crop comes on they have to provide for the harvesting by bringing
white labourers in from the east, and taking them back again when the harvest is over.
The same conditions exist there. I was fifteen years in Manitoba and know how it was.
It is a question whether the Canadian Pacific Railway could bring so many here, and
take them back again to do the same here. The Chinese get well paid for the time they

150 REPOST OF ROY A L COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

are working ; it is not cheap labour by any means. Some of them would probably
be employed for four months, and others for six or seven weeks ; about two-thirds for
only six or seven weeks.

I do not think there are too many canneries : I do nc:)t think there are too many
fishermen. Every four years we have a good run. I believe in free trade. It is a case
of the survival of the fittest.

If white fishermen were there we would rather deal with them. We pay fishermen
the same price all round.

If you increase the cannery for a big year you lose so much more in other years, so
it becomes purely a matter of dollars and cents. I think they have reached the limit
now ; that is the way I have got out of the business.

I think mostly from domestic ser\dce the Chinese are drawn, that work inside the
canneries. I know of tw-o canneries that have practically failed. The traps on the other
side is one thing that has decreased the price of their fish.

James Anderson, whose cannery is in the city of New Westminster, said : I cor-
roborate the evidence of Mr. Ewen as to the labour question, what it cost in machinery,
and the like. I might differ with him a little about the number of canneries. We
could do with fewer canneries, but the people who put their money into them, that is
their concern.

We cannot carry on the industry without the Chinese under present conditions. I
employ about 125 men all told. I start my white men on April 1, and last year I
had them until November 1. I am not in favour of Chinamen coming in as
freely as they please. My opinion is to get rid of Chinese and Japanese if the
conditions will allow it. I think you can do better w^ithout the Japanese than without
the Chinese. The Chinese do not fish, but if we got white men and their families we
might get the Chinese out. That would take a number of years. That is, it would take
some time. As conditions are, you cannot get white girls or boys to go to the canneries,
because the Chinese are there, and they do not v<-ant to associate with them. They do
not care to work alongside the Chinese. If no more Chinese came in, having regard to
the numbers that are here, the change to white labour would come about gradually. It
would cost white people a good deal to come to the coast. There would be work for
them if there were no Chinese or Japanese.

I would like to see nothing but white labour in the country. I am speaking
personally, not from a business standpoint. If there was further restriction on further
immigration, there would be the difficulty of replacing the labour, that is our difficulty.
The presence of Chinese and Japanese here may have a tendency to keep out white im-
migration, but personally I cannot say. It is a serious matter to have all the avenues
of labour filled with Japanese and Chinese. We would build up the countiy much
quicker with white labour. The Chinese supply a certain class of cheap labour that you
cannot now fill with white men, but that would soon remedy itself. For removing that
difficulty I say there is no time like the present. The remedy will have to come some
time, and I suppose you may as w-ell begin now. Of course, speaking for the canning
industry, we are a little handicapped here now by the competition on the other side.
If no more Chinese were allowed to come in, the change w ould be gradual. I think it
would be a mistake to make any radical change. Many of the Chinese go to the United
States, I believe, and I believe some of them are going to Toronto now as domestic
servants. I would prefer to see the oriental going out, rather than our people.

Thomas R. Smith, of Robert Ward & Co., general agents, Victoria, said : Have
been in the canning business as an employer three or four years. The industry was
largely developed before I went into it. The industry is not dependent altogether on
Japanese labour.- The length of the fishing season is about two and a half months. It
is not always the same. It depends on the run of fish. The supply of fish is inter-
mittent. There may be a good supply one dav and no supply the next day. These men
have to wait there. Fishermen sell their fish by contract at a certain price. Of course
labour is required inside the canneries to take care of the fish that are brought in by the
fishermen. Fishermen are a class entirely distinct from the labourers inside the can-
neries. I do not think the labourers catching the fish and the labourers taking care of

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 151

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

them inside, clash witli each other. If there was nobody to put them in tins, the fish
would not be of any value at all.

Last season was a very unprofitable one. We could not have paid anv moi'e for the
fish and got a profit, or paid more for the labour inside the cannery. I cannot see where
white labour could be obtained. It i.s a question of wages to get it. I don't know what
they would do the rest of the year. It would not be desirable to have white men in the
country, depending upon cannery work alone. I am not in favour of curtailing indus-
tries for want of Chinese and Japanese. I would always prefer a white man to a black,
there is the sentimental point of view, but it comes down to a question of dollars and
cents. Countries are built up of dollars and cents. Sentiment may cost too much ;
you can't bring the two points together, for what you want is not obtainable, and you
have to get what you want the best way you can.

I do not agree with an organized importation of labour. Exclusion would not af-
fect trade between Canada and China and Japan. If I made a restriction against
Chinese, I would also against the Japanese. I do not think it possible to get white
labour at any wages to do the work in the canneries. The first labour employed inside
the canneries consisted largely of Chinese.

There is nothing technically difficult about the work in a cannery. The class of
work could be done to a considerable extent by grown up boys and girls. The Chinaman
is a machine. I would rather a white man think sometimes than be a machine.

It simph' comes to this ; men are not going to put money into a business unless
there is a good prospect for them, and they are going to employ cheap labour if they can
get it. I think the general policy should be to keep the Chinese out and gradually get
white in, but the white men will have to be prepared to compete with the Chinese. It
is simply a question of competition in business. I do not think it is possible for white
men to be replaced entirely by the Chinese.

From 1885 to 1891 I was assistant commissioner with the Hudson's Bay Company.

I cannot suggest any other class of employment in this province which will permit
of white men engaged in fishing industry to leave their employment and go out fishing
for a couple of months in the year. The number of canneries considerably increased
within the last few years. In the United States they catch fish with traps. The
American fish that goes to the United Kingdom goes from Alaska. The fishermen's
union are a powerful body, and have proved themselves capable of looking after them-
selves. If the Chinese and Japanese were excluded it might have some efteet in increas-
ing wages. If any change was made to make labour dearer, I should think the capitalist
would take that into consideration before investing. Last year if the fishermen adhered
to their prices, every cannery would have had to shut down, and the fisheries would have
stopped.

Q. Do you thirds in the interests of the country that the immigi'ation of fuither
labour of that class should be further restricted, not to send out those who are here, but
to restrict the further immigration ? — A. It goes without saying that we do not want
any more than we can help. It cannot be contended they are desirable citizens. From
the standpoint of a citizen I should say further restriction is desirable, but when you
narrow the thing down to a question of the canneries, the cost of labour is an important
element, and the caunerymen have to obtain that labour at the lowest possible rates, and
as long as the Chinese and Japanese are cheaper than white men he will get that labour.
It is largely a question of production at a price, so as to be able to compete with the
canners on the other side.

Q. You have large numbers here now of both Chinese and Japanese 1 — A. Yes.

Q. Large enough to meet all immediate requirements ? — A. Yes.

Q. So if no more of that class came in, your industrj^ would still be carried on ? —
A. Yes, it might be carried on if we had other cheap labour.

Q. More white labour ? — A. Yes, sir. I am in favour of white labour in every-
thing, but at present the Chinese are necessary over here, and we cannot do without
them. If the\^ were sent away I do not know what we would do. White labour is
preferable.

152 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Ha\-iiig regard to the number that are in the country at present, do you think
that industry is dependent upon any further admission of labour of that kind for its
continuance l — A. No, I do not think so. Of course labour will ha^e to be obtained.
If it has to be obtained at a higher price so much the worse for the industry. I should
say the Chinese are the least undesirable. I think tliey are preferable as a matter of
comparison.

The Chinese will never assimilate. They are a distinct and alien race — alien in
speech, habits and civilization — in e\ery way.

Q. Do you think it in the interests of this country to further increase a race of that
kind ? — A. I do not think so. In the general interests of the country, I should sav not.

It would be unwise for a white man with a family to come into the province,
unless he has something in view before he comes, because he would have to enter into
competition with the labour that is in the market here. It is just such a man as that
who would go away greatly disgusted with British Columbia, and injure the province,
because he could not live here and compete.

Q. Would you advise white men, white labouring men, to come to Victoria, under
existing conditions ? — A. No, I do not think so. Whether they would not be a far more
desirable class of citizens is a diffei'ent question.

Q. From your knowledge of the canning industry, do you believe the profits of the
cannerymen are as good as the profits of the manufacturers throughout the country % —
A. Yes, it is a verj' progressi^-e industry of course.

Q. You think they would make fully as much profit as other industries ? — A. Yes.
Last year was a poor year, and it was not very good the year before that.

Q. Do you think it is wise that the Government should encourage the immigration
of Chinese into the country ? — A. No, I think the general policy sliould be to keep the
Chinese out, and gradually to get white men in.

G. A. Kirk, of Victoria, said : We have three canneries and employ seventy Chinese
in each cannerj-. We might have ten white men. We pay the Chinese contractors so
much per case. We have introduced labour-saving machines in the canneries and
where the work is done by them we charge the Chinamen for that. White men have
never done the whole work. The white men cannot give us sufficient men to do the
fishing. We employ all the white men that offer. We are only too glad to get hold of
them. I know that but for the Japanese several canneries would have to shut down
next year. I do not think there are too many Japanese fishermen. I think we pay
better wages than on the other side of the line.

Charles F. Todd, wholesale grocer and salmon canner, said : I have resided in
Victoria 37 or 38 years. There is no competition between Chinese and whites in the
lines of labour I employ, that is canning, because they are not doing the same thing.
The condition does not arise. We employ white men as superintendents. We contract
at so much per case with the Chinese firm. It is one of the conditions that they shall
not sublet their contraft. The business could not be carried on without the Chinese.
The labour could not be found. We have been in business since 1882. If thev were
not here the business would not have been developed. The Chinese are employed at
the same work on the other side of the line at a cheaper rate, except in some places in
Alaska where they may be able to get enough native workers. The fisheries on the
coast depend on Chinese labour. I think there are between sixty and se\enty canneries
in the Pro\Tince employing on an average I should think about 75 men each, probably
from three to five thousand Chinese altogether. Up north they have some Indian help,
but the work is not so much manual labour as it is expert labour, such as soldering.
The packing season on the Fraser River is from four to eight weeks. A man would not
get probably more than four weeks' work the season.

There may be enough Chinamen now to fill up all the requirements. I think so at
the present time unless the labour were diverted so that it would not be available.
Chinese are not as desirable as whites, but there are lots of whites no more to be desired
than Chinese.

Q. If no further immigration of Chinese were allowed, do you think that trade
would gradually adapt itself to the changed conditions, not to put out the Chinese that

O.V CHINESE AJS^D JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 153

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

are here ? — A. I do not know. It would depend on conditions not alone in British
Columbia. The canning busine.ss is not confined to British Columbia, but i.s go\'crned
largely by outside conditions, so uriless the conditions sliould change in Alaska and
Puget Sound and elsewhere, white labour could not be available at a low enough wage ;
unle.ss the wages were low enough there is only one thing would happen, it i.s simply a
question of a fisherman taking less for the fish, or the white people to be paid more foi'
putting them up, and if we had to pay more for putting the fish up the fishermen would
lia\"e less for the fish they caught.

Tlie price \aries very much. In the United States the methods of catching salmon
are difierent from ours. They get them cheaper. They ha^-e a large home market and
they go to the English market as well. Generally they export more than we do.

I would not recommend the Chinese should be allowed to come in without restric-
tion. It would be overdone. There are enough here. I should think, unless the fiow
becomes greater than at the present time $100 is sufficient. Thei'e are a very few
coming into the country now, that is as far as I know.

\Ve have from 175 to 200 fishermen, all full grown men. All the Indian
women who come to the cannery are employed. There is a great scarcity and competi-
tion for them. I have known them to be paid as high as $3 a day. Indian boys are
largely emploj^ed. Wages for women are 1-5 or 20 cents an hour. Boys, 10 to 1-5 years
old, 10 to 13 cents an hour. They wash the fish apart from the Chinese. We some-
times employ them subject to the Chinese and deduct what we pay them from the
Chinese contract. They board themselves ; have cabins, tents and houses at the
canneries for their accommodation. Have never employed white men and boys for the
same purpose. You would have to have better accommodation for white people. The
season is so short. For instance, over on Puget Sound the canneries are sometimes
located in cities where they may employ a certain amount of white helji who live at
liome, but in British Columbia the conditions are entirely difierent. I do not see how it
is possible to employ white help at all. I would certainly not like to see it done. It is
very degrading. White fishermen very seldom bring their families to the canneries.
The fishermen are not inclined to work inside the canneries and do not bring labour with
them to take care of the fish they catch. Of the 350 fishermen I think about 100 were'
Japanese. In the past a good many of them expected to get their living out of fishing
only, but are wakening up to Ihe necessity of finding some other employment as well.
They ^nd they cannot get a year's living out of one or two months' work now.

We have been engaged in the canning business in Puget Sound ; emplo3'ed Chinese
and white people in the same capacity as here. Wages are less there than here ; for
the Chinese about 20 per cent less ; whites about the same wages. Cost of living
cheaper there ; cost of machinerj' we found was 50 per cent cheaper than here. The
necessities of life are cheaper too, cheaper over there ; meat and farm produce are very
much cheaper over there ; 75 per cent of the fish over there, are caught by traps,
probably ten men for one trap ; with many traps together they probably would not
average more than six men to a trap. The men were largely Swedes, Norwegians,
Russians and Finns. Take an ordinary successful trap and the ordinary results on the
Fraser River, I should think a liberal estimate would be four traps would give you the .
same results as 150 or 200 fishermen on the Fraser River. It would depend largely in
the way traps were situated and worked. I liave known one instance where one trap
caught more fish than 175 fishermen did on the Fraser River, where there would not be
over eight or ten men employed.

We paid on the average on the Fraser River the year before last 22 cents a fish,
and on Puget Sound we estimated on a fair average the fish cost us about five cents, if
the traps were favourably located ; 17 Cents a fish difierence, or equal to 12 a case is a
fair average for the year 1899. Their season is longer over there ; the foreign market
takes only the best of fish, whereas their local market takes any kind of fish ; therefore
canneries can start on May 1 over on the other side and run until the end of November
as they do in many cases. Over there men are employed much longer and make much
more time than men do over here.

151 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

One of the advantages of the trap method of fishing is, that thev are able to catch
fish alive, therefore they can keep tlieir fish on hand between the runs of the schools by
using double pots holding the fish and keeping them alive until such time as thev are
able to use them. Whereas on tlie Fraser River the fish have to be used as soon after
they are caught as possible. I believe the fish in traps have been held alive as long as
two weeks on some occasions. It works to the advantage of the labourer in gi\'ing them
a longer season to work and more constant work. In the canning industry, where there
is great competition, it is necessary to have the same conditions as elsewhere in order to
compete.

Q. Could you dispense with a large amount of that labour in our fishing if vou used
traps ? — A. I should say so. You may make it up to a man in some way bv gi\'ing him
longer employment, and in one year employing 35 men for seven or eight months in the
year, whereas you now employ 175 men for onlv six weeks. Thev work bv the month.
With the use of traps Japanese could be dispensed with verv largely. A man cannot
afford to catch fish at the same price as they can be caught in the traps.

All their sockeye salmon like ours emanate from the Fi'aser River. They depend
almost altogether on salmon from the Fraser River. We emplov ten white men in each
cannery. The price of fish ran from 1 5 cents down to 6 cents four years ago. Of
course at that time the American traps were catching fish at one cent a fish.

Two men will do as much work with a soldering machine to-day as 75 men work-
ing by hand would have done some years ago. W^e pay more for the fish now and the
price in the market has not gone up. The contract price, even with the machinery
being added every year, has not gone down. There are enough canneries here for the
fish I'unning. Traps could have restrictions put on them the same as any other methods
of fishing. I look at it simply as a commercial man.

W. A. Munroe, of Steveston, said : I am manager of the Phcenix and Britannic
canneries, which belong to the Anglo-British Columbia Packing Company. In 1897 we
had more white labour than usual. It was a large run and the Chinese were not obtain-
able. Our people in Vancouver set to work and sent as many white people over as they
could gather up, I think 15 or 20, and about the same number came from the West-
minster Automatic Can Factory. Most of those from the can factory were boys. Part
of the cans were made in that factory. I myself stood outside the dyke and tried to get
Indian men and women to do the work ; labour was very scarce that year. "We had
(]uite a number of cans from the Automatic Can Factory in 1897. The Chinan^en did
not object to these cans that I am aware of. I never knew that any of our cans were
punctured by anyone. Thev did not object to the capping machine that I am aware of.
As far as puncturing cans or damaging the machine goes I do not know anything about
that. We had a number of strangers who were sent from Vancouver, men not ac-
customed to work on machines, and because the machines would not work easily they
might have thought tjiat the Chinese had been monkeying with them. W^e had a little
difficulty with the Chinese that year. I think it was because a number of them were
opium-smokers, and we wanted to get all the work out of them we could. The whole
trouble did not amount to much. The contract system did not prevent me from engag-
ing all the white labour available for the cannerj-. I got all the labour I could get
hold of ; the contract prowles for that. It is immaterial to us what labour the China-
man brings. When fish are plentiful we are always willing to pay good prices for
labour. The canning industry has not been profitable for some time. Some men went
into the business and came out all right. The average man who goes into the business
is very soon tied up ; that is the man who goes in with a little capital.

^^'illiam Campbell, manager of the Automatic Canning Company, New Westminster,
said : The factory running to its full capacity will turn out about 200,000 cans a day.
We employ from thirty to eighty, all whites, men, boys and girls. We make cans for
some of the canneries. We do not make all the cans for the company of which Bell-
Irving is manager. ^.V'e are usually employed on cans for about four months in the year
in the summer time. I believe we can make them more cheaply than the canneries can
make by hand. I believe that the labour is about one-half between the factory and hand
labour. AVe have been in existence four years. The labour costs about $1 per thousand

ox CHINESE AXD JAPAXESli IMMIORATIOX 155

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

(.aus. Tlie canners say they have to have Chinese help, and they employ them in making
fans for some time before the fishing season so that they will have the men on hand
when the fishing season comes on. We have an advantage over individual canners in
buving our material in large blocks. If the canning industry depended absolutely on
(lur product, there would be no trouble in ha\"ing enough on hand for the whole of them.
There has only been a stringency on one or two occasions by reason of tin not arriving
in the country in time. I nevei- heard of any of our cans having been punctured or made
defective by the Chinese in order to have the cans made by themselves. We have had
no trouble in getting white labour, and I would rather have it. Our trade grows in
miscellaneous cans. ' I do not suppose we supply more than one-renth of the cans used
on the Fraser River. We manufacture cans of all sizes and descriptions.

Lee Soon, of New Westminster, said : I have been in this country sixteen years. I
have been in the canning business five years. I have got about 8.30,000 of capital
invested. I have ten partners, some are here and some of them are in Cliina. I employ
eighty to one hundretl hands ; 20 per cent of them are white men. I have an engineer,
net boss, watchman, fish collector, and some young boj-s who carry fish to the cans.
We have also steamboat men. Our steamer would be worth 82,750. We have from
fifty to sixty Chinese in the cannery, no Japanese. Last year I had five boats of Japanese.
The rest of the fishermen were white men and Indians.

I would like to see our people come in very well. I would like to see the head tax
remain as it is now, .8100. and not be increased anv further. With a head tax like that
the population would not increase any further. I am also in the merchandising business.
]Men in the cannery blisiness lost a great deal last year. At first the fi.shermen were not
satisfied, but after the strike they were satisfied, they told me so.

I own considerable land in this country. It is under culti\ation. We employ
fifteen to eighteen Indians inside the cannery beside the fishermen. I brought all the
capital I invested here from China. I paid SI, -565 to white labour in the cannery last
year, and .$600 for wages on the steamboat. I am called on for public subscriptions,
and I always subscribe. We had about twenty boats of white fisherman la.st year and
from twehe to eighteen boats with Indians. The tishei'men say there are too many
boats. I think not too many boats, but too many canneries. I pay the same for fish to
all. White men and Indians work our cannery boats. White fishermen struck first
last year. It was not easy to get fishermen to work for me last year. There was a lot
of fish last year, but there was a strike on, and thev did not go out and get them. I do
not think there are enough Chinamen for all the canneries this year. We cannot take so
much fish from the fishermen if we have not enough men to take care of them.

We hire the men at the first of July. There are just about as many men available
now as last year.

Thomas Robinson, of New Westminster, assistant to the Inspector of fisheries,
said : We have no means of ascertaining the value of a plant of the indi\idual fisher-
man as distinct from the whole. The statement gives the value of plant. In 1896 there
were l-l-,227 employees. The value of the plant then was §2,197,248. In 1897 the
number of employees was 19,8.50, the value of the plant 82,3.50,260. In 1898 em-
ployees 20,695, plant 62,180,2-45. In 1899 employees 20,0.37, plant 82,145,173. In
1900 employees 20,262, plant 82,839,904. These figures are from the Government
return as far as published by the department, and beyond that from our own ofiice
records. The information is from the various canneries in answer to a form of questions
that is submitted to them.

The price is based on ten cents a pound, so the figures will show the difierence in
bulk mure than the market price. It will show the value of the production, rather
than the market price. With regard to the plant, we have no means of ascertaining it
apart from the plant which belongs to the individual fisherman. The statement includes
ever\-thing in the industry. It is made up partly from the cannery returns, and partly
based on the number of licenses issued.

As to the employment of Chinese in canneries, in my opinion the present conditions
are unnatural. The Chinese were here, were brought here from the east and the can-
ners have made use of them, but I think that with white help they could have done the

156 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

same work. We have depended on the Chinese till we think we need them, until we
seemingly need them. Some people have worked themselves into the belief that they
are nece.ssary. We have created the neces.sity by our action in using them. I was at
one time intere.sted in the Fraser River Industrial Cannery. There were eightv or
ninety interested in it as a co-operative association, nearly one-half were fishermen.
The inside work was done by Chinamen. They had not very much to say about em-
ploying Chinese. They accepted the directions of their financial agent.

The Co-operative Cannery was sold by bankrupt sale. The ditiiculty I should say
was in the first place lack of capital, and lack of harmony amongst the member.ship. It
ran three or four seasons. I think we had one or two successful sfflisons. It had profit
in 1896, but I think it went behind in 1897.

I have no knowledge personally to draw comparisons with labour conditions in
lobster and vegetable canneries elsewhere, with salmon canning on the Fraser. I
believe it was difficult to get some expert Chinamen one year. I think there were fish
refused last year by the canners. The capacity of a cannery depends upon the labour
and the plant within it. The canneries are very rarely worked to their full capacity, on
account of the run of fish. It always seemed to me that when there were plenty of fish
they were choked. I think there was a shortage of Chinamen in 1896. There was a
scarcity of Chinese labour in 1897 when the run was on.

It would take .some time for the white men to become expert in the canneries under
present conditions, because the work is in the hands of the Chinese.

G. H. West, fisherman, of New Westminster, said : I think restriction of Chinese
and Jaj>anese is absolutely necessary, for the reason that we have been crowded out bv
tliem. The Chinese do not interfere with us in gill netting. The Chinese should be
restricted. White men and Indians should have the opportunity of making the money
and spending it in the country. I should like to see the tax made so high that no more
Chinese could come in. In Australia they have a tax for fishing licenses, and they have
to pay a poll tax as well. Chinamen and white fishermen are taxed the same here.
Chinese fill so many places in lumber mills during the rest of the year that white men
cannot get work and cannot make a living. We only require to encourage our own
people to come, but if you wish European immigration it can easily be got if the Chinese
were not here. If they were sure of work they would come. I would be in favour of
the Government bringing them in.

The Chinese are increasing in the industry on the other side, but they have got a
whole lot of white people working with them in the canneries there. A white man can
earn more over there.

Hezekiah Stead, fisherman, of New Westminister, said ; I have seen factories and
canneries run in the east successfully without either Chinese or Japanese. The presence
of Chinese tends to keep white settlers from coming in, and discourages those who are
in. A white working man who may have saved a little before he came here is scared to
invest anything in the country, and they go to a country where they have not competi-
tion such as the Chinese or Japanese.

I tliink the canners have nothing to do with the help. The contractor is supposed
to supply all the help that is required. I think they hire one or two white persons, but
if they hired more thev would lose the contract I suppose. They would have to pay
larger wages and would lose. I was inside the canneries in 1897. I think everybody
could get work then inside the canneries that wanted to work. Not many fishermen
worked inside. I think they would get work then there. I know thei'e is a clause in
the contract between Chinese contractor and the canner that the canner may put on
anybody he likes to work in the cannery at certain wages, if there is not sufficient labour
otherwise. I do not know of anyone doing it.

Speaking of canneries in the east, I refer to lobster, salmon fishing and other
industries in Newfoundland. My sisters worked in an oil factory and a lobster factory
at 40 cents a day. The white boj-s and girls did the work there much more satisfactorily
than the Chinese do here. Just a few white people are employed around the cannerieshere
when they could not get Chinese to take the places. The capacity of a lobster cannery
in the east is from 500 to 3,000 cases in a season. I think the season is two months

ON CHIXESE AND JAPA\'ESK IMMIGUA JIOX 157

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

for the lobster fishing. We have machinery in some factories, some are on a small scale.
Thev got white people tliere from the fishing villages and from the fishermen's families.
There have been quite a number of people come here from Newfoundland, antl thev are
moving home again because of the Chinese and Japanese. They do not come to stav here
and compete. They think it is likely to be better there in the future, and they would
not build houses here and settle. ,- ' mj'

I do not think the traps are going to hurt fishing at all on the river : the traps on
the American side, I mean. It is my opinion that the fish will follow their own course
up the river, and they will shun the traps ; they will learn to shun the traps. It did
not take long for the fish in Newfoundland to keep clear of the traps near shore.

John C. Kendall, fisherman, of New Westminster, said : If the Chinese and Jap-
anese continue to come in here I will either have to leave or to starve. The Mongtilians
have cut me out of everything as well as they have done in the fishing. During the
three years I have been here, I have only been able to secure work for four months
outside of the fishing. I cannot get work outside of the city.

I do not believe that canners cannot get white labour here. I have met white men
with tears in their eyes starving, and could not get work because of the Chinese and
.Japanese here.

George ^Nlaekie, fisherman, of New Westminster, said : No more Chinese or Jap-
anese should be allowed here, because white immigration is more desirable. Enough
white' people have left here since I came to supply all the demands for labour, if the
Chinese and Japanese had not been here. I know a great many people in the cities who
would be glad to get employment that the Chinese and .Japanese have to-day, more par-
ticularly the Chinese. . There are enough white men and Indians in the province to do
all the fishing. In the old country at the herring curing establishments they do the
same work as the canneries here all with white labour. If no more Chinamen came in
the canners would turn round and employ white boys and girls, and in one season would
become as expert as any Chinaman. The Chinese only employ white boys and girls at the
time of a big rush. The presence of the Mongolians not only prevents immigration of
white people, but it drives many people who are here out of the country, ilen who
came from Scotland and Canada are returning to where they came from. A floating
population tliat used to come here only come now in small numbers.

They employ Chinese in the canneries because it sa\es the management a great deal
of bother. There would not be much trouble to get white labour.

Rev. Jolm Perry Bowell, clergyman of the Methodist Church, New Westminster,
said : I am personally acquainted with a large number of fishermen, who came to the
province with the expectation of finding profitable employment in the fisheries on the
Fraser, and the deep sea fisheries as well. Those who came several years ago succeeded
to their own satisfaction. Several of them secured little blocks of land and built for
themselves homes ; but the greater portion of them were not only fishermen, but were
skilled mechanics — carpenters and shipbuilders — and specially fitted to go into ship-
building. Since the influx of Chinese these same people are pretty severely testetl.
JIan}' of them had to go all over the province seeking employment, and a large number
had to leave the country. Nearly all of these were men with families. Were the
Chinese and .Japanese not here, I am persuaded we would get a large number of people
from Newfoundland. I have a great many letters from there inquiring as to the con-
ditions here, but I would consider it a great ctime on my part to advise any of these
people to come here. Were the conditions such as they ought to be in a British province,
large numbers of men from eastern points would easily be induced to take up little
holdings and settle here. Owing to the increased cost of li\'ing of this coast the con-
dition of the labourer here is no better than the condition of the unskilled labourer in
the east, and the man out of employment in the east has not the great irritation of
seeing the labour he could perform in the hands of foreigners. It has the effect of prac-
tically stopping white people from coming here. The Chinamen who are here would be
sufficient for some time to come. On Vancouver Island especially I have observed that
the Chinese are inclined to do work that white men in this country at any rate do not
care to do. If our boys had work in the canneries during the fishing season they would

158 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

be a great help to their family. The canners only employ white people 'i\hen there is a
rush. The Chinese are employed every day, while the white people are employed some-
times for a few hours in a week. There would be no inconvenience to the canneries if
no more Chinese came in. In many places near settlements, the school vacations could
be made to fit in with the cannery seasons. If fishermen had their families li\dng in
the neighbourhood of the canneries, it would encourage settlement, and in the fishing
season they would be readily available. Newfoundlanders have large families.

I would not like to see boys and girls under twelve years working in the canneries,
but I have known boys and girls to work until two o'clock in the morning for a week at
a stretch. If there were no Japanese on the river I say there would be sufficient white
people to be got to work the canneries to their reasonable capacity — men, women and
girls. There is destitution among the fishermen in Newfoundland, amongst the fisher-
men when there is a short run : there is not likely to be so much destitution here.
Expensive management has a good deal to do with the trouble. Labour does not get
its share. I would consider 10 per cent fair interest on money invested. In the case
of the canning industry a little more interest might be allowed ; I should say 25 per
cent. Canners have to pay a larger price for fish now than they did before the invasion
of the orientals. With fewer fishermen they would pay less, and yet the fishermen
would make money. The increase in the price of fish due to orientals was not a good
thing for the white people. Before the orientals came the fishermen made good wages.
I have seen no e^^dence of the industry here being crippled by traps on the American
side. In Newfoundland about two-thirds of the population, 225,000, I would say about
two-thirds would be depending on the fishing industry. I should say 100,000 were
actuallv engaged. Those people I spoke of from Newfoundland came here from ten to
twelve years ago. Since I came here very little has been done in regard to deep sea
fishing. I believe the cod-fish here would give employment to a large number of people,
but men who understand vessels and deep sea fishing would have to engage in it.

I would call a fair remuneration in this country not less than $1 . 50 a day.
Encouragement should be given eveiy way for men to marry, and their families growing
up in the country. I do not think the American methods of fishing are prudent, but
they are not so undesirable as the presence of Chinese and Japanese here. The use of
traps may be a factor, but not a very large one. The question to be considered is, will
cheap Chinese benefit the employer and injure the labourer? Being one-sided some
remedy should be employed. I think the fact that the Japanese is better qualified
to adapt himself to the conditions pre\'ailing liere makes him a greater menace than the
Clunamen, who are common to our own labouring people. I do not think there is
enough white labour at present to i-eplace the Chinese in the inside work in the
canneries. A good deal of the distress which occurred in Newfoundland was attributalile
to the fishing having been depleted. If not attended to very soon here the result may
be the same. The vast majority of the fishermen here have been unmarried men and
that is not a very desirable condition of things in a new country. Fishermen who come
to this countrj^ usually have been seafaring men, or fishermen elsewhere. Their first
thought of course when here was fi.shing. A great many have come and gone away. A
large proportion of the fishermen on the river are bona fide fishermen, but they cannot
under present circumstances rely on fishing for a living.

M. J. Coulter, of New Westminster, said : I am vice-president of the Grand Lodge
of Fishermen's Union of British Columbia. I am a fisherman, have been four years on
the Eraser river. I also fished for eleven years on the Columbia river before coming
here. I am a British subject.

I am opposed to the further immigration of Chinese and Japanese. They hurt the
interests of white labour. In the fishing industry they are not individual but contract
labour. The canneryman engages white men individually, but when he wants Chinese
or Japanese he goes to a Chinese or Japanese boss and says : how many men can you
supply me with, and he gets them at so much a head.

Patrick Cain, of New Westminster, fisherman, said : The Chinese ought to be
excluded as well as the Japanese. The Chinese do not fish ; they take dare of the fish
after they are caught. White people could easily be got to work in the canneries if

oy CHIXESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 159

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

there were no Chinese here. If they could not get them in thi.s country, they could get
them in .some other country. The cannery people will take as many fish this year I
suppose as the Chinese can take care of. I do not think it would harm the country if
every fisherman were required to provide labour to take care of the fish he caught him-
self. It would be better if it were done in that way. I think they should be able to
compete with the Americans in the English markets.

Thomas Sheaves, fisherman, of New Westminister, said : The Chine.se do not inter-
fere with mv business of fishing, but if they were not here I could get the cutting of
cord wood out in winter and lots of other jobs. White people can do the Chinese work
in the canneries just as well. It would not do for white people to depend altogether on
the work that the)' would get inside the canneries, but there would be a great many
good white settlers if there were not Chinese or Japanese in the province. I want to
make a living in my own country and I want to have justice.

Alfred Totterman, fisherman, of Steveston, said : If the canneries would only
employ white labour and nothing else, they could get plenty of it. The Chinese labour
can be replaced by Indians and white women. I myself can supply three women to the
canneries. Canners seem to prefer Chinese. I have seen lots of Indians and white
women turned away right in Steveston over here. I know of many families who have
got three or four chiklren that are able to work, and two-thirds of them are married and
have families.

The Chinese contractor contracts to put up all the fish for the season. Only the
sui-plus labour is given to white people. I consider that women and boys are better
than Chinamen in the canneries. If there is any inducement for white people to come
here, there will be enough of them for all the work that is required in the canneries. If
there were no Chinese or Japanese here there would be no difficulty in getting a sufficient
number of white and Indian fishermen, citizens of the country to do all the fishing, and
to secure all the canneries requirf . That is my opinion founded on many years' obser-
vation.

Capt. J. L. Anderson, of Vancouver, formerly a fisherman, said : Chinese take the
place of cheap white labour that might be employed in the canneries. All the labour
in the canneries could be easily supplied by white labour from the east, say from
Montreal and Quebec, and even from Newfoundland. The canneries seem to prefer the
Chinese and Japanese.

John Stewart Fraser, of New Westminster, said : The conditions existing now are
alarming. They alarm me, because I have still in this province three sons, and I am
very anxious for their future. When I see the central school up here dismissed at noon,
and see the large number of boys coming out there I stand and pause, and think what
they are going to do. Where are they going to get work ? These are questions that
frighten me. They cannot compete with Chinese and live respectably. Some provision
must be made for them, and if the Chinese and Japanese are allowed in this country,
these boys will be d'iven out of theii" own country and have to seek a li\'ing on the
other side. It is not so that those boys do not wish to get employment. At the
Automatic Can Factory I beheve it was found that cans had been punctured, or at least
one of the largest canneries where the Chinese and Japanese had been dismissed, and
they sent a steamer to Vancouver, and in a very short time they found boys and girls
enough to operate the Automatic Canning Company. Well, now, I cannot answer ;
if it was the Automatic Canning Factory, they preferred to ha\-e white bovs and girls.
You will understand the company manufactures all kinds of improved cans, and they
found their cans were being tampered with. I was in Steveston at the time and saw
the steamer there landing the boys and girls, a fine looking lot of young people, all
willing to work. I think that disposes of the argument that boys are not willing to
work. If you go down street in the morning you will find boys going to the different
factories and asking for employment. No, sir, they are not all able to find employment
because of the presence of the Chinese and Japanese.

That is true that nearly all the industries are retjuiring men in summer and there
is not so much work in the winter. Men are employed in th canneries for a short
tinie in the summer, and are out of employment there in the winter.

160 EEPOnr OF EOYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Alexander Cumyou, a Chinamen born in Canada, residing in Vancouver, said :
The wages for Chinese and Japanese are higher on the American side than here, from 25
to 50 per cent. I do not know about the Japanese, but about the Chinese I do.

I \'isit the lower parts of the lower mainland in the capacity of an interpreter in
connection with the provincial revenue tax.

John Ibbottson, fisherman, of Vancouver, said : My family wish to go to work in
the canneries. They were told they could make from §1 to $1.50 a day. My wife and
three children were there for 96 days. They earned for 96 da^-s .$74 for the four of
them. One was thirteen years old, another seventeen, another twenty-two. Mv wife is
about sixty-three. The youngest was a boy, the other two were girls. They were
working by the day or by the hour. They were to get from ten to tv.^elve and a-half
cents an hour, and what I am trying to tell the Commissioners is that they gave them so
little work that in 96 days they only earned 674. They were just held as a reserve,
"^lien I was complaining they said there would be more fish by and bj^, but when the
fish did commence to run more Chinese were sent for to town The white people only
got work when there was more than the Chinese could do. They had not been out
working in the canneries before.

My notion is that to limit the licenses and give them only to people v>ho are real
settlers. I would give the license to the heads of families in preference, and that would
to a great extent keep the Japanese out. I was employed at a cannery last vear as
assistant net man. AH I got was §40 a month. A first-class net man is worth, I think,
about .$ 100 a month.

Robert T. Burtwell, Dominion Fishery Guardian, Vancouver, was asked :

Q. Do you know of any cases where Chinese were forced to go back when thev
had left ? — A. Yes. I was working at the Englisli Bay Cannery three seasons ago.
8ing Soong and King Foong were the contractors for putting up the salmon. The
season was a very poor one. The men employed by the contractors were indebted to
the contractors. Some of them had left the employ of the cannery, and had started a
little place or camp adjoining the cannery, to do something for themselves. The
manager of the cannery came to me and said : ' Mr. Burtwell, I do not know what we
will do with these Cliinese ; they want to sneak away to town ; they are indebted to
Sing Soong and King Foong ; I want to stop them from going ; can you hit on some
scheme to stop them and get us out of the hole 1 ' After a little while he said : ' You
can go as if you are a policeman and get them to return.' I said : ' I am not a constable
and have no authority to act as an otficer of the law ; I do not wish to get mvself in
trouble, but I will try to run a blutf on them.' I went to a trunk of my own, found a
document with seals on it ; I put that in my pocket ; I went to the cannery and saw
Sing Soong and King Foong and ~S\\\ Crane ; thej' told me the Chinese wanted to go to
town ; they were indebted to the contractor. I said : ' You fellows want to break j'our
contract.' They said: 'No, but the Chinamen that left want to.' I went to the
contractor that left and asked them why they wanted to break their contract ; they
said they did not want to break their contract. Sing Soong says we owe him money,
but we do not ; he treated us very mean because we were not catching much fish ; he
gives us only one meal a day and a little rice ; we want to go to Vancouver and get
work there. They told me they were hungry. I told them they had better stay on the
contract. I succeeded in getting the Chinamen back and kept them there -until tliev
finished up the contract. I was paid for my services. The Chinese explained to me
that Sing Soong made certain advances to them, and as the season was bad he was losing
money, and he charged them too much for their food. So they should not incur any
more indebetedness, he limited the amount of food they should get to one meal a day. If
he had furnished them with three meals a day, as he had contracted to do, it would liave
increased the indebtedness. I know the practicel part of it myself ; I knew for a fact
they had only one meal a day. I went to Sing Soong and insisted on him gi\"ing them
more food. It was practically nothing more or less than a system of slavery.

I was not a British subject nor fishery guardian at this time. In a sense I was a
British subject ; I was born in the United States, taken as a baby to the old country ;
resided there till I was fourteen years of age, and then came to Canada ; but as I was
born in the States that made me an American citizen.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 161

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. I suppose your suggestion is, the Chinese employed there were not free ? — A.
They thought they were, but the boss put up a job on them, compelled tliem to remain
thei-e to do their work.

Q. You helped that '?— A. Yes.

Q. You say they had only one mea,l a day ; how long did that continue ? — A. — For
two weeks prior to my lea\"ing the cannery.

Q. And you helped to keep them at the cannery 1 — A. Yes ; and they used to get
the tail pieces of the fi.sh from the cannery.

Q. Thev were living on one meal a day and you helped to keep them there? — A.
Yes.

Q. What did you do witli the parchment paper or deed ? — A. I pretended it was an.
official paper.

Q. And you terrorized these Chinese and kept them there .' — A I did not terrorize
them, but when they saw a paper with me with a seal on it they thought they had to re-
turn to work.

AMERICAN EVIDENCE.

Everell B. Deming, manager Pacific American Fishing Co., Fairhaven, Wash.,
stated: This cannery was established in 1899. We employ Chinese. In the working
season we employ 2,.500 hands, (inside the canneries 1,000) and of these about 300 are
Chinese, and a few Japanese. The Chinese do all the canning except the filling under
contract through boss Chinese. The filling is done by whites entirely, bovs, girls and
women. Tlie proportion of Chinese labour employed by us is about one-fifth. This com-
pany has always employed them. Thej^ come from Portland and return at close of
season. Chinese average about .$45 a month and board for a season of .six months.
All the canneries on the Sound employ Chinese for the same purposes and limited to the
work mentioned. We catch our fish in traps, and work is done by whites. In a rush
season we employ Japanese. Japanese are unsatisfactory. We would not think of em-
ploying them as Chinese are. I prefer white labour at higher price to Japanese. Can
get about as mucli work out of Japanese as out of whites. White labour is paid from
20 to 25 cents per hour. It is all liurry up work, no regular hours. Chinese are em-
ployed because the}- are skilled, and will do work white men won't do ; for instance,
soldering cans, a very tedious job. Chinese don't strike ; you can always count on them.
I would pay them more than white men for same work. Chinese are not cheap labour-
ers. I like Chinese because they stay right with their work and do it I'ight. We get
a great manj^ of the same Chinese every year. A good contractor keeps the same gang
i-ight along. We have this year all the best Chinese we had last year. Japanese are
very quarrelsome. They get drunk. They don't mix with the Chinese or whites. Won't
be in the same house with Chinese. Would not care to run a cannery without Chinese.

Our output last year was 150,000 cases ; total capacity from 300 to 400,000 cases.
The regular day's work lasts twelve hours, but for short periods, men work as long as
fourteen hours. We did not make our own cans this year ; bought them from can
factories. When a cannery Ls running full capacity would have from 1,000 to 1,200
hands inside during the run of fish.

We are putting in two filling machines this year. Never packed with fillers before.
Our market is in the United States. Have not shipped to England.

We had a fairly good run in 1899 ; put up 219,000 cases, of which 130,000 cases
were sockeyes.

Capacity of our traps about 6,300 fish per diem. We make a contract with a
Chinese boss for so much per case. Under that contract he furnishes us so many
skilled Chinese ; we furnish the rest and charge their wages up against the
boss Chinaman's contract. We get some fish from gill nets and seines. We could not
depend upon that source. Average price for gill net and seine fish, sockeyes 25 cents ;
year before last was 1 7 cents, and probably the fisherman got the worst of it. Trap
fish brought 17 to 17i cents. There was no contract last year between canners and
54—1 1

162 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

fishermen. We paid market price from day to day. Canner.s here to .some extent supply
fishermen with gear, probably half and half.

This vear a big run is expected and tlie contract price for fish is L5 cents. If we
had to depend upon gill nets the plant would be closed up. Large number of men are
emploved in connection with traps, getting out piles and steamboating. We have twelve
steamers and we use 12,000 j^iles each year. We pay trap fishermen by the month. Net
mien work on shares. Trap fish are as a rule cheaper than net fish. Last vear the trap
fish were liigher. Couldn't get enough fish on Puget .Sound with nets and seines only.
Conditions are difitrent to the Fraser River. With traps we can store fish for two or
three days and this helps to give cannery hands steady work. With gill men only we
have to liave five times as many steamers for towing around, ifec. Under the trap system
less fish are destroyed than by gills and seines. We don't dump any fish from the traps
if choked up, but let them go. There are sixteen canneries on the Paget Sound. Total
capacity in 1899 was 885,000 cases. Just as many canneries then as now. Capacities
have been increased and with a good run 1,000,000 could be put up. The number of
Chinamen employed by us is about the average in proportion to capacity. The Alaska
Co. have a smaller proportion because they fill entirely with machines. Chinamen's
earnings represent one-fifth of the cost of the pack. Our fishermen we employ in the
net field. Work commenced February 1, so they got steady work until 1st of
following January, for they have to bring in and repair nets after close of season. They
average 650 per month. The Report of the L^nited States Fishery Commissioner, Mr.
Wilcox, has very complete statistics, and covers Alaska as well as Puget Sound. The
State Commissioner's report is not so full. There is great antipathy to Japanese here.
Until this plant was put in the anti-Chinese feeling was very strong. As this plant
could not be operated without Chinese the feeling is not now so strong. The feeling
remains very strong against the Japanese. It is realized now that Chinese are not cheap
labour ; thev are skilled and don't have to work for little money.

Last year we imported 300 tons of coal from British Columbia, and had hard work
to get anyone to unload it, though we offered 50 cents an hour. One or two white men
came down but refused on the ground that the work was too dirty. Finally we secured
Chinese at 40 cents an hour. When they learned that 50 cents had been offered for the
job, they struck for a higher rate. I don't know if many Chinese came in from British
Columbia ; suppose some do. Our men are nearly all old men ; don't see any young men
now ; youngest between 35 and 40 years old. We find a difficulty in getting white boys
and girls. We have had trouble to get white men, but not this year. There are plenty
of men now, but they are of a class that will not work steadily. It is almost impossible
to get a girl servant either in Fairhaven or Whatcom. If whites had been trained, could
have done as good work in the canneries as the Chinese. The whites employed around
canneries are not steady and cannot be relied on. Will strike when they have you
where the hair is short. They would take us at a disadvantage when the fish were
running fast. We could not deal with mechanics through their organizations. You
can make a contract, but they wont live up to it. Can't make contracts with them as
an organization, because you can't make them binding.

The cannery business, as far as this country is concerned, has been a money maker,
on paper, but it has all gone into betterment. Tlie same thing apphes to nearly every
other industry on the Sound. Business has been profitable, but all the money made
has gone back into plant. The cost of fish in traps depends entirely upon the run.
Last year trap fish averaged 75 cents a piece. As a rule the traps belong to the cannery
companies ; that is, they are controlled by the companies. The laws of the state permit
a man to own three traps.

The main difficult}' of having to depend on whites entirely is the fear of their de-
manding exorbitant wages just when the run is on. There is no question of being able
to get just as skilled whites as Chinese, if the whites would take up the work. There is
no difference in ha\-ing work clone here and in Chicago. I have been handling canned
goods for twenty years. I have concerns in the east. What is saWng them there will
ultimately save us here — machinery. For instance, in canning corn, boys and girls do
all the labour necessary. We are getting some machines here which will make us inde-

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 163

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

pendent of any particular class of labour. None of the eastern canning industries
fluctuate as the salmon fishing industry does. If there had been no Chinese the salmon
canning business would not have been conducted on so big a scale. With big plants
like this we must run to fullest capacity to earn interest. Our pay-roll to-day averages
about $15,000 per month, and we are not earning anything, just getting ready, and the
same thing after the season of about sixty days. We don't give a rap for the fall
salmon. We must make our money out of the sockeyes. The average cost of putting
in a trap is §5,000.

Mr. Deming subsequently stated to the Commissioners, whilst showing them over
the cannery, that the labelling machine would save the labour of twenty men ; the box-
nailing machine saved $1,000 on 200,000 boxes, and that the boxes were now made up
at a cost of ten cents apiece.

H. F. Fortman, president of the Alaska Packers' Association, San Francisco, said :
The total output of Alaska last year was 1,534,745 cases, of which between 750,000 and
800,000 were exported. Great Britain took about 000,000 of them.

It would be impossible to run the Alaska fisheries without Mongolian labour.
About 5,000 Asiatics are engaged in the fisheries of Alaska, 500 of whom are Japanese.
We get them from San Francisco and Seattle. Ten to fifteen per cent of labour inside
the canneries is white. We employed 1,581 white men fishing last year for Alaska can-
neries. We had 1,086 Indians and 2,162 Chinese. Traps, gill-nets and seines do most
of the fishing. Japanese are not employed as fishermen. Fishermen are hired for the
season. We pay them so much per fish. They work at loading and discharging vessels
as well, and in six or seven months they often make S400. Transportation and board
up and dowiT are free. We catch about 85 per cent of our fish by gill nets and seines
in Alaska. We use all the canning machinery we can get, and control some patents
that other canners cannot use. We could not run our canneries at present without
Chinese, although we use every laboui'-saving device at our work. British Columbia is
our chief competitor. They have a fine class of goods and are well established in the
trade. Chinese are the skilled labourers of the canneries. They understand it, and lay
out to do their work well. We have no trouble with Chinese contractors. If a China-
man gets sick there is another to take his place. It is not the same with wliite men.
The gang is only as strong as the weakest link. With wlutes, if one man quits, the
whole cannery is at a standstill.

We send to England and the British Colonies about 75 per cent of our Puget
Sound pack. We always did so.

The first cannery operated on the Sound was in 1891. In 1893 a second cannery
was built by another Fraser River canner. In 1894 another cannery was built. None
were erected in 1895. Fourteen were built in 1896 and 1897, and two since then. The
capacity of the Sound canneries is about 40,000 cases per day, and they could put up
50,000. For sockeyes salmon traps are used nearly altogether. There are a few gill
nets and seines used. I never saw Japanese fish on Puget Sound. A man must be an
American citizen, and a continuous resident of the States for one year before he can get
a fishing license. We have now a reasonable supply, but not an over-supply, of Chinese.
Japanese would not be employed if we had sufficient Chinese. So far they are engaged
by the Cliinese. We pay Chinese as much for labour now as we did before we installed
labour-saving machinery, so that the profits on machinery are distributed amongst the
Chinese. We guarantee the Chinese contractor so many cases for the season. W^e
guarantee him about $160 per man for the season. They get that amount absolutely.
We furnish them with transportation. They board themselves. Wages on Fraser
Eiver and Puget Sound are practically the same. It is a longer season on the Sound.

Profits on fish sold in England are about the same as in the home market. The
market is not unlimited, it is fixed. We have a better market than British Columbia.
We have the whole United States. After shipping to England we have the home mar-
ket to fall back on. The English market for us is the more important of the two and
more profitable, principally on account of the large quantities purchased at once.

Chinese do not tend to keep wages of white men down. They obtain all they can
get. I would favour restriction of Chinese ; I would not have unlimited immigration.
Your present law is all right, that is a tax of $100 on each Chinaman.
54-111

1C4 REPOnr OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Chee Foo, Chinese merchant, Portland, Oregon, said : I have been a contractor with
the Alaska Packers' Association for ten years. About 200 Chinamen go from here to
Alaska, and the balance, 2,500 or 3,000, go from San Francisco to Alaska. Wages
have increased since the Exclusion Act. It is hard to get 20 men now where I used to
get 400, though I pay half more now. There are not half as many Chinese here now
as ten years ago. Some go to China, some are old men, some <iie, Ac. There used to
be thirty canneries on the Columbia River, now there are only five or six.

Cold storage has done away with a great deal of canning ; therefore not so many
Chinese are wanted on the Columbia River. I don't know of any Chinese who have
come over here from Canada. At the canneries I am glad to employ all who come and
are willing to work. The men who solder get $300 for the season, the butchers about
$320, and other labour is about §280 and board for the season : for mending cans the
pay is less, about $250 for the season. I paid §2.5,000 advances last year, which
cannery owners guaranteed. The Alaska packers advance S85,000 for so many men.
I take the contract to supply the men. I pay Japanese $1 a day in the cannery. There
are a good many Japanese in Seattle. They can be got cheap ; I have got 120 going
into the cannery this year at half price. I figure tliat 75 men are required for 1,000
cases per day. In the season I employ all the white men I can get at 15 cents per houi- ;
boys and girls get 10 cents an hour. Stout men get 20 cents per hour. The Chinese
never strike. We supply the company with 400 men to fill all positions. The filling
machines save five men per thousand cases. Men will be scarce in Alaska. I wanted
100 and only got 30.

Walter Honeyman, of Portland, Oregon, said : My business is mainly in fishery
supplies. The number of Chinese are lessening on the Columbia River now owing to
the number of canneries being lessened. There is not one half the number of Chinese
employed that there were five or ten years ago. The output has been reduced ; the
cause, want of protection to the fish. I do not think there are over 500 or 600 of them
engaged on the Columbia. We have no Chinese left in town here now, and they ai'e
swarming in to\\Ti in the winter.

I have seen only once or twice in twenty years that there was not sufficient labour
in the canneries to handle the bluebaeks. 'There were thirty canneries here twenty
years ago. Now a great many of the large sahnon are shipped by the cold storage men.
They do not sliip bluebaeks or anything less than 25 pounds. We can find a good
market at our own doors for all the salmon we can catch.

We have to refuse a great many orders for nets when it comes to this time of the
year. We cannot get Chinese now. Hand-made nets are made here. The machines
for making nets seem to be controlled by the manufacturers. No machine-made nets
are made here. The bulk of them, I should say three-fourths used outside of the
Columbia River, are machine-made nets. The)' fish here with seines, traps and wheels,
not many gill nets. No weekly close season.

SUMMARY.

The canning process is almost entirely in the hands of the Chinese. Cannery owners
contract for the work with a Chinese boss, who is usually backed by a firm of Chinese
merchants. The contractor is required to supplj' all the labour necessary to operate the
cannery to its fuU capacity at the height of the season. Failing to do this the contract
usually provides that the owners may empky wliom the)' please to perform the work,
and charge this labour to the account of the contractor. With the exception of white
foremen, engineers, and a few skilled men occupying responsible positions, the contract
covers all the work of the cannery in preparing the fish as they come from the fishing
boat to the finished case of labelled tins ready for the market. The contractor in a
heavy run engages all the Indian women and youths as well as all the white youths
available. It was estimated that of the cost of the pack of 1897 — a large run — seven-
teen per cent was paid to the Chinese contractors, and that five per cent of this percen-
tage would be paid bj' them to labour other than Chmese ; that 27 per cent of the cost
of that pack was for materials manufactured elsewhere than in British Columbia, and

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 165

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

that 56 per cent represented tlie amount left for distribution in the province, exehisive
of imported materials and Chinese labour.

Without an exception the canners stated that the industry at the present time and
under existing conditions could not be carried on successfully without the aid of
Chinese ; that the Chinese are experts and are fully adapted for this work. All the
available labour-saving machinery known to the trade is in general use by the canners
and has reduced the Chinese labour by more than one half, but they state that its intro-
duction has not lessened the cost per case for Chinese labour. The Chinese are reliable
and industrious, and are willing to work long hours when the fish are in supply. They
live in houses in connection with the canneries, unsuitable for whites, and live cheaply.

By reference to Exhibit .52 ante, it vnW be seen that although a large number of
Chinamen may be engaged in the cannery during the busy season, — that is July and
August, and less than one-third that number for April, May, June and September, and
althougli their wages are comparatively high, for the time they do work, yet they do not
work more than half the time ; and measuring their employment in years, their total
number would be represented by comparatively few. For instance at one cannery in
1897 where from \b to 1-59 Chinese were employed from April to Septembei-, their total
time <mly equals the employment of 32 men for one year, and their earnings per day of
ten hours is $1.48, or equal to $.38..54- per month of 26 days. In 1898 where from 9 to
116 men were emploped, it only equalled 14 men for a year, at $1.44 per day or f37.58
per month. In 1899 where from 4 to 146 men were emploped, their time equalled 14
men for a year at $1.-51 per day or $39.39 per month. In 1900 where from 12 men to
85 were employed, it etjualled about 9 men for a year, at $1.54 per day or $40.15 per
month.

In the same cannery during those fovir years from 19 to 21 white men were em-
ployed at an average of $78.3.5 a month, and at an average of over five months each
year. Board herein is included at $12 per month. Their wages run from $40 to $100
per month. For these years the Chinese labour varied from 32 to 66 cents, average 48
cents per case. White men's labour varied from 21^ to $1.32^, averaging 68 cents per
case, exclusive of wages on steamers, which varies fi'om 6^ to 41 cents and averaged 2\\
cents a case.

The contract price with contractors is practically the same in the different districts
of British Columbia, and in American territory, excepting in Puget Sound, where, it is
stated by one Canadian canner, that owing to the length of the season the cost is about
20 per cent less. A Chinese contractor at Victoria puts it at 5 cents a case less on the
American side. A contractor at Portland stated that since the Exclusion Act wages of
Chinese have increased.

The Alaska canneries are supplied partly with native and white labour, and with
Chinese sent there from San Francisco and Portland. On Puget Sound the Chinese are
obtained chiefly from Portland. They have also American Indians, and a large number
of whites are employed there in filling cans. Two-thirds of the Puget Sound canneries
are located in or near by towns or villages, from which they can draw a good supply of
white labour.

The northern canneries of British Columbia obtain a larger amount of Indian
labour. Their supply of Chinese is principally from Victoria. There is said to be very
little land fit for agricultural development along the streams where the canneries there
are located.

It is evident, therefore, that the supply of labour must continue for some time to
migrate there.

In the Eraser River district one cannery is situated about two miles from Vancouver
city, six are within the city of New Westminster, three are situated within two and a
half or three miles below and across the river from New Westminster. The remaining
thirty-eight canneries are scattered along the river banks at a distance of from se\en to
twelve miles from these cities. Steveston is a village almost wholly made up of people
directly engaged in fishing and canning, and is practically deserted when the fishing is
over. A large number of canneries are there, and it is regarded as a fishing centre. A
fine agricultural country is in the neighbourhood of many of those thirty -eight canneries.

166 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

but it is generally held in large holdings. The harvesting season is on invariable at the
time when the rush of salmon is expected, and this makes a demand for labour that
might otherwise be available for the canneries.

It is evident, therefore, that with the exception of those canneries located near or
within the towns, the labour required must migrate to them, and if white people were
employed instead of the Chinese this would necessitate the provision of suitable accom-
modation atconsiderable expense on the part of canneries.

It was also represented that the premises would be only occupied for a short time,
and not fully, except in hea-s^y runs.

On the one hand it was suggested that the gradual displacement of Chinese labour
by white labour might increase the cost of production. On the other hand, this conten-
tion was met by the proposal that the number of fishing licenses be reduced, so that
those engaged in fishing, by reason of larger indi^ddual catches, might be able to sell
their fish for less, and thus relieve the canner of the possible increased cost entailed by
the employment of white labour in the cannery.

The number of hands required in the canneries, — at least five thousand — the loca-
tion of the canneries, the uncertainty of the run and therefore of the length of time
employment can be given, and the fact that the Chinese alone are trained in the canning
process, present conditions which preclude anj' sudden change from Chinese to exclu-
sively white labour.

From the foregoing it will be seen that : —

I. The Chinese by reason of their presence have been utilized and become experts
in the cannery business. Their employment smiplifies and to a certain extent makes
easy the work of the employer so far as the employment of labour is concerned. The
work is done by contract through a boss Chinaman at so much a case. The responsi-
bility for labour then rests with him. He emj^loys Chinese chiefly. Indian women are
largely employed for cleaning the fish, and white men and boys are employed when the
work cannot be overtaken by the regular gang.

Japanese also of late are employed in the canneries to some extent.

II. Until recently cans were made almost exclusively by Chinese labour, and
although an automatic can factory run exclusively by white labour has been established
at New Westminster with a capacity to meet the requirements of the entire trade on
the Fraser River, and at a price as cheap if not cheaper than those made by the Chinese,
yet the Chinese are still employed to a considerable extent in making cans, for the
reason that this gives them a longer employment, and the employer is then assm-ed of
having them ready when the fisliing season opens.

III. The introduction of machinery and its improvement from time to time has
gi-eatly lessened the number of Chinese required.

IV. There is a sufiicient number of Chinese in the ProN-inee now to meet present
requirements and su})ply the demand for years to come, although in an emergency occa-
sioned by an unusually hea\'y run difficulty is sometimes found in getting an immediate
supply.

V. Opinion is divided among the cannerymen as to the expediency of prohibiting
further immigration. Two were in favour of no restriction whatever and thought that
sometliing in the nature of coolie labour, or at all events cheap labour, necessary. One
declined to express an opinion, and one thought the present restriction sufficient. Two
favoured further restriction and one exclusion, and all agreed that the Chinese labourer
did not make a desirable citizen and ought not to have the franchise.

VI. Chinese labour being always available, easily handled and elficient and cheap,
is perferred to other which is less expert from want of practice, and not so cheap.

VII. Cheap labour and the large profits formerly made, induced so many to en-
gage in the business that it is now as all admit crowded if not overdone, which, together
with competition from the Sound, but principally from Alaska, has cut down the price
and reduced the profits.

VIII. Owing to the number of Japanese engaged in fisliing there has been over
crowding on the Fraser, with the result that both the canneries and fishermen have suf-

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 167

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

fered, the individual catch being less and the price per fish to the canners increased, and
their profits thereby diminished.

IX. Had there been no Chinese in the country it is probable that the whites and
Indians would have been trained to the business, and would have furnished a suflicient
.supply, but the almost exclusive employment of Chinese through their boss contractor,
who naturally employs his own countrymen where available, has practically shut the
door against whites and Indians and prevented them from learning tlie business.

The exclusion of further Chinese is not likely to seriously afiect this industry, for :

(a.) There are suflicient Chinese already in the pro-\ance to meet the demand for
years to come, having regard to the views generally expressed by witnesses as to a
maximum development having been I'eached, and the possible depletion of supply and
the number of Chinese now in the province.

(b.) The change will be so gradual as to be all but imperceptible, and may be met
by the employment of whites and Indians.

{<■.) Un the Sound where the Exclusion Act has been in force for many years and
the number of Chinese has decreased in the last decade, it has not retarded the develop-
ment of this industry, but on the contrary it has recei\'ed its chief expan.sion during
this period, manv millions have been invested therein within the last three or four years,
and this although Chinese are employed both on the Sound and in Alaska, as they are
in British Columbia.

There is nothing disclosed in the evidence as it affects this industry which renders
it inexpedient, if otherwise desirable, to exclude the further immigration of Chinese into
the Dominion.

CHAPTER XVI.— DOMESTIC SERVANTS.

White domestic servants are very hard to obtain in British Columbia, and the
Chinese largely fill these positions. In Victoria there are employed as cooks and do-
mestic servants, 530 ; in Vancouver, 262 ; in New Westminster, 65, and in Nanaimo,
42. They are also employed almost exclusively in the lumber camps, on steamboats,
and in the various towns and \'illages, and to a certain extent on the farm as cooks.
For instance, in Kamloops there are 30 employed and in Rossland 120. In short, they
are employed to a greater or lesser extent as cooks and domestics throughout the
province, except in the towns of Phfenix and Sandon, where they are not employed and
not permitted to come.

The wages range from SIO to .530 per month in private families, and from .^25 to
$45, and in some cases even higher, in hotels.

Their efficiency it is said largely depends upon their instruction when first engaged.
It is dilficult to get them to change or adopt new wavs. Their service differs from that of
the ordinary white servant girl in this : that in addition to doing all kinds of housework
they frequent!}' cut the wood, look after the garden, and do general choring about the
place, such as is generally done by a man servant, and this feature of their service
accounts for the fact of their employment in many cases.

The wages given above have application where they have received a certain amount
of instruction. On their first arrival many work for even less.

While, as among whites, there are good, bad and indifferent, yet the weight of evi-
dence indicates that they give general satisfaction, and many of them are exceptionally
good servants. We think it may be said that the larger number are found to be honest,
obedient, diligent and sober. The care of children, however, is seldom entrusted to them.

Probably the strongest certificate of character they received was from Major Dupont,
of Victoria, who said : I find them most faithful and most obedient. They are just as
zealous to serve us and make us comfortable as on the first day I employed them. It
is most unwarrantable to say they are not considerate and respectful to white women.
I find them quite cleanly. There is lots to be said about his unsanitary condition in
his own quarters. Chinese quarters with me are as tidy as bachelors'. I don't think

168 REPCRT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

they crowd out white girls. Any white girl can get a situation at from 615 to 820 a
month. I never lock a door in my house. I never knew a Chinaman who took my
M'ines or liqueurs. I have Ijeen gone eighteen months at a time, and I would be most
ungrateful if I did not bear testimony to their honesty, zeal and capacity as servants.
I have had one for 24 years and one for ten years.

Samuel M. Robins, general manager of the New Vancouver Coal Company,
Xanaimo, said : I never employ Chinese as domestic servants. I have heard there is a
difficulty to get white girls, but I have not experienced any. There is difficulty
by certain persons and no difficulty whatever by others. It is a difficulty with the
mistresses. I tliink the employment of Chinese as domestics more injurious than their
employment in any other calling.

Clive Phillipps-Wolley, of Victoria, who lived in China for many years, says : You
cannot get the same deference from a Chinese servant to a white woman that a white
servant will give, but a Chinese is always deferential to men.

Q. You know from observation of cases where the ladies of the house would not
part with a Chinese on any account ? — A. I believe there are cases of the kind.

Q. They bear a character for honesty ? — A. I do not know of them bearing that
character. I know of a Chinese servant who was in one employment for many years,
and was trusted by his employers, and was found to have been a persistent thief during
all the years he was in the service. He was so clever a thief it was hard to discover.
He could cover up his tracks better by far than any white man I ever heard of, or read
of. You want me to .say whether Chinese rema n a long time in one employment ; the
Chinese I know of the longest in one employment was one of the biggest thieves I
have ever known or heard of in va.y life.

George Allen Kirk, Manufacturer, of Victoria, who came to the Province in 1885,
said :

Q. Would it be possible if there were no Chinese cooks here to get cooking done in
the private houses of the citj- \ — A. Certainly not at present.

Q. Is the Chinese a good or bad servant \ — A. I think he is a good servant. I
have found if you give them decent rooms to sleep in they are cleanly. If I could get
white people as good I would take them.

Daniel McFadyen, of Vancouver, contractor and carpenter, said : In connection
with househol I help, we kept a lodging house in this town and we kept Chinese help
from time to time. In regard to their being a desirable help, they are not. They must
be taught first, and then they get so independent they will not do the work. I found them
unsatisfactory. We gave from S5 to §10 a month. Then they want more and try to
run things. I have seen some good servants. Servant girls are rather scarce, but I think
more could be employed than at present. I say if servant girls had been encouraged to
come to the country there would be a great many more of them than there are. A §10
Chinaman is not equal to a white girl. There are girls who would come from Nova
Scotia. I am from there.

Tim Kee, Chinese Tailor and emplojiuent agent, of Victoria, said :

Q. Do you think white people could get along here in business without the Chinese ;
how would white men get along without am^ Chinese in Victoria ? — A. They would
get along all right.

Q. How would they cook ? — A. They w^ould get other cooks, white cooks. Suppose
there were no Chinese here, white people would do all the cooking and washing.

Lee Cheeog, Chinese merchant, president of the Chinese Board of Trade of Victoria,
says :

Q. Do you think we would have no servants at all if there were no Chinese immi-
gration ? — A. Certainly. If you had no Chinese here you would have white servants.

Q. How do our people in eastern Canada, in Manitoba and other places, get along
where there are no Chinese 1 — A. Your people would have servants to look after the
houses. Some few years ago our people were not here and you had servants then and
you could ha^'e the same now.

John W. Taylor, barrister-at-law, of Victoria, accounts for the difficulty of getting
cooks by the presence of Chinese.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIORA TION ]69

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Hem-y Croft, of Victoria, engaged in the lumber and mining industries, said :

Q. Have you had any experience with Chinese as cooks ? — A. I have had them in
the house.

Q. Are they good or poor cook.s ? — A. It depends on their training. Some of them
I know are very bad cooks. I have had three Chinese cooks in one day and discharged
the whole of them.

Q. Have you had other Chinese cooks that were more sati.sfactory ? — A. Yes, some
stayed a little while. I would sooner have a white cook in a house m3'self because I
have been used to a white cook.

Q. Can you get women in this countrj- for domestic service ? — A. You can get them
but they are not at all plentiful.

Q. Then you have to pay them a very high wage 1 — A. Oh, not at all. You pay
them a reasonable wage and a white girl will stay with you for a long time and give you
no tr(3uble. It is hard to get a good white servant at certain times.

Edward Musgrave of Cowichan, Vancouver Island, said : I don't see ^here the
supply of domestic servants is to come from except the Chinese. I have never found a
servant equal to the Chinese. They will do as much as three English servants.

Dr. O. Meredith Jones, of Victoria, says : I have heard it said people could not get
on without Chinese domestics. I suppose people would be put to a little inconvenience
at iii-st. In the course of time you could get the same comfort from white servants as
Chinese give. It would be difficult at first. There lias been no organized effort of get-
ting white girls. I think if there was an organized effort to bring girls out there would
be very little difficulty, for they could be got from eastern Canada. I should say
England would be the best place. There are lots of women willing to go into domestic
ser\-ice. The girls hei'e are not inclined to go into service. They prefer other positions
for half the wages. They could get emplo)'ment if they wished.

The majority of white girls here are employed as nurse maids, and peojjle have
difficulty in getting girls as nurse maids. People won't have Chinese attend to children.
Where they have no nurse maids the Chinamen does the housework and the lady of the
house looks after the children.

Q. Is that conducive at all to home life ? — A. No, I think not, but the fault in
many cases lies with the employers. If they >vere to take the same interest in white
girls as they do in the Chinese, and put the girls through a course of training in cook-
ing, matters would be improved greatly, or girls could go to some cooking school, and it
would be a very good thing for them if they did know how to cook. If they were good
cooks it would tend to make a good many homes happier.

A good cook is very much sought after. They don't like to go into any kind of
work the Chinese do. They think it degrading.

The Rev. Elliot 8. Rowe, Methodist Minister of Victoria, said : The jn-oblem of
domestic .service is not confined to this pro\ince, but the presence of the Chinese may
aggravate the conditions here ; I think better wages are paid here for domestic service
than in places with which I am familiar ; but those people who have Chinese servants
have various opinions as to their work and desirability. T cannot say whether the
majority of opinion is that they are very desirable as domestic servants. I have had no
experience in that line iiere ; but the domestic servant problem will exist as long as
the conditions affecting domestic labour are retained. I heard two medical gentlemen
discussing the question this afternoon, and the views they expressed were entirely in
accord with my own views. There was a time when medical nursing was looked upon as
menial ; but schools were established in connection with our various hospitals for the
training of nurses, and now the ranks (jf the medical nursing are filled with the finest of
our young women. The question of work done in the kitchen and of work done in a
hospital has a more intimate connection than many would suppose ; it is just as honour-
able to keep a man out of the doctor's hands by cooking food propei'ly, as it is to care
for him after he has got sick. Probably there would be less trouble in domestic service
if such methods were adopted in domestic economj' as have been adopted in the study of
medical nursing. It would be well if there were established some institutions, as I
believe have been established in some parts of the United States, where degrees or

170 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

certificates of efficiency would be granted to students, when tlie degrees of mistress of
domestic science will be looked upon with as much pride as a degree from our schools
where sick nurses are trained. Then girls will readily enter into domestic service in
place of looking after situations in shops and offices ; there will be institutions established
for instruction in cookery and other domestic work, and the degree of mistress of
domestic science will be as much pi'ized as that certif\T.ng to efficiency in sick nursing.
To my \-iew that will be the solution of the domestic service question : then the rush
for positions in shops and offices will be less than it is now, and the home and home life
will be vastly improved. The presence of the Chinese domestic creates difficulty. My
experience in reference to getting employment here for people anxious and wOling to
work is very different from other places I have been in. I have not been called upon to
seek employment for a girl here. I used to conduct a small employment bureau in some
of the places I was in. Under the Utopian conditions I have suggested I think work
could be obtained in the near future, but I think it might be difficult to obtain employ-
ment now.

Alexander G. McCandless, of Victoria, clothier, said : In regard to domestic ser-
vants, I think we can get along fii'st rate even if there wasn't a single Chinaman in the
country. It is a mere fact of the Chinese being here that prevents white girls wanting
to occupy those positions. I believe I could go east and could get good white girls to
come here and work for .§15 and $'20 a month in domestic service were there no Chinese
here ; and with no Chinese hei'e, were white girls offered the same wages as they now
pay to Chinamen, there would not be the least difficulty in getting all the domestic
servants we may require.

I hold strong views on this question, as I have had reason to consider it, but I do
not wish to weary the Commission by presenting them at length.

A. R. Milne, C.B., Collector of Customs at Victoria, said : I think the supply of
Chinese domestics is equal to the demand. Domestic servants are always certain of
employment. Good mistresses are always able to get good domestic servants, white girls
I mean. With a little thoughtfulness on the part of employers there would be enough
of white domestic servants to fill all the demands. I think some ladies prefer to have
Chinese as domestic servants, I suppose because they have got into their ways and have
learned to do the work. They all come from the coolie class. Many of them I find are
fairly intelligent, and they adhere strictly to their contracts. Mistresses are not at all
considerate of the feelings, either physically or otherwise, of girls who go into domestic
service. The girls are driven to take other work because of the long hours and incon-
siderations on the part of their employers.

Dr. Robert E. McKechnie, of Nanaimo, said : I have two Chinamen in the house.
One is moderately good and the other is poor. They demand fairly high wages. I
employ them because of the impossibility of getting suitable white help. I think it is
more difficult in Nanaimo than in Victoria, because you may say we are quite a distance
from the centre. We have to obtain white domestics from Victoria, Vancouver and
New Westminster, and some efforts have been made to obtain that help as far
east as Montreal. Servants difl not like to leave large cities to come to a coal mining
town. The men of this town earn fairlv good wages, and as soon as they are able to
give their children a good education they do not care for their girls going out to
domestic service. A large proportion of the girls under eighteen and nineteen are fitting
themselves for better positions than domestic service, because of the Chinese being
employed in that serrice. Very few girls are available from the white population here.
It is very difficult to get white girls as domestic servants. I think there is a reason for
it ; very few white families come to the country, and girls do not care to go far from
home or from the centres in the cities, and between the two we fall. There is a diffi-
culty. The Chinese fill the gap to a certain extent, but we would be better with white
people, and have the Chinese out of service altogether.

John Mathews, mine manager, Cumberland, said ; We have Chinese as domestic
servants here. There are no girls to get a supply from. There are few, if any, girls in
domestic service here. The miners are quite able to keep their daughters without going
out to domestic serWce. Hotels have Chinese and Japanese, principally Chinese. I

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIORA TION 171

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

know of only one girl employed here. Wages for a girl from fourteen to .sixteen years
of age is .$12 to $1-5 a month usually.

Benjamin T. Rogers, manager of the Sugar Refinery, Vancouver, says : I think
Chinese domestic servants are a perfect godsend to the country. I have had women
cooks, much to my sorrow. I have two Chinese servants, and two white servants. I
would not have white girls to take the place of Chinese, if they worked for nothing, if
they wanted to work. The Chinese does not waste anything and the white cook will
waste more than his salary is worth in a month. I would not favour exclusion because
we need them as cooks. I pay one Chinese cook $37 a month. I think there are enough
Chinese in the province to-day for domestic purposes.

Richard jfarpole, superintendent of the Western Division of the Canadian Pacific
Railway, Vancouver, says : I find Chinese far ahead of any servants I have had. I pay
.■jSO a month for gii-ls as cooks. I am trying to get them now at that rate. I am satisfied
with what I have. Naturally you would prefer to have a white girl cook when you have to
pay a Chinaman from $'2b to .$3-5 a month, but you cannot get wliite girls who will stay long
with you. I tried to get girls from the east, but they turned out to be very much like
some of the white labourers coming out here ; they took advantage of us. We emploj^
Chinese cooks on the Kootenay boats, for a good reason, we cannot get white cooks.
These are the only places where we employ them. I failed to get servants from the
east, and there are others who have failed in the same way. I will never close the door
against getting good servants here. If they are scarce in Toronto how can we get them
here ? I think probably the distance they have to come and the cost of coming here,
three thousand miles, has something to do with the difficulty of getting white girls for
domestic service.

Johannus Buntzen, manager of the British Columbia Electric Railway Co., Van-
couver, says : As to Chinese domestic servants I found one or two very good.

Bernard McDonald, manager of the British America Corporation and the LeRoy
group, Rossland, says : We emploj' one Chinese as janitor in Rosslaud. We have a
boarding hou.se. The cooks employed there are whites, both cooks and waiters. I think
Chinese necessary as domestic servants, ily own personal experience is, they are more
reliable as domestics and the consensus of opinion here among my acquaintances is that
they are almost indispensible. It would appear white girls cannot be got. I know of
Chinese being sent to Ontario to take domestic service there. In some cases it would
keep families out, and other cases where families would come in, they would do their
own service. There is a sufficient number of Chinese to give all the servants that are
required. §20 to #30 a month are paid to Chinese. Very few girls are employed here.
Chinese are more desirable here than Japanese.

Edmund B. Kirby, manager of the War Eagle and Centre >Star Mines, Rossland,
>ays : There are enough Chinamen throughout the west to provide domestic service and
do laundry work, and, in short, work of the class that white labour is reluctant to
undertake, and up to that point I don't think they do any harm and are a benefit, and
I find in private conversation that is the opinion of men all through the west. The
reason being that there is a gap there for which there is no supply of white labijur.
The caste prejudice against domestic service is each year becoming stronger, and white
girls seem to be more reluctant to undertake that class of work.

Smith Curtis, M.L.A., Rossland, barrister, for the last two years engaged in min-
ing, says : Take the case of domestic servants. Were there no Chinese available I have
no doubt that there would be a fair supply of white domestic servants, were they paid
the necessary wages. Give servant girls here the same wages given to Chinese and
exclude Chinese from this service altogether, so that it wUl not be looked upon as a
menial employment, as it is at present, from them being engaged in it, and a fair supply
of girls would I believe come into the country. I lived fourteen years in Manitoba and
we had more or less difficulty in getting servants, yet we pulled through, and British
Columbia could do the same if Chinese were out of it. If I were in the British Colum-
bia government and the Chinese were shut out, I would undertake to get servant girls
in the country. Girls tlon't look forward to domestic ser\dce where orientals do that

172 REPORT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

service. They look upon it as a more menial woi'k than they otherwise would. If more
servant girls here were married off it would greatly benefit the country.

Henry E. Creasdale, of Nelson, former manager of the Hall Mines and Smelter,
says : In domestic service tlie Chinese do not come in contliet in an^^ way with the
labouring classes here. I am quite willing to admit the majority of people here are
opposed to employing Chinese, but I think they are made up of those who never employ
Chinese, and ne^er found any benefit from theu- service. If you took the employers I
think you would find the majority in favour of keeping the restriction as at present.
There is no doubt to anyone who knows the countrj- and the scale of wages paid if you
had to depend on white women to do the drudgery, they would not do it all, or only for
very high remuneration, and if immigration was completely stopped, it follows that with
an increasing population the number of Chinese servants must become less than the
demand.

I should say their presence has indirectly assisted development in a way : that is
to say, people have come into the country and have become interested in it, who would
not come if they had not Chinese servants, and the ordinary domestic comfort has been
favoured by the Chinese. They contribute to the comfort of the whites who are here.
It is not because of the Chinese being here that girls cannot get employment ; girls are
not avilable..

Fong Wing Chong says : Have resided in Nelson six years : twenty-one years in
British Columbia ; am a merchant, married, wife in China. I went home and married
and left her there seven years ago ; one child ; not been back since. There are about
325 Chinamen in Nelson, — 50 cooks and servants, 20 in laundries, 40 working for white
men, 50 gardeners. The rest have nothing to do, — 150 ; half I know have nothing to do.

Gustave A. Carlson, Maj'or of Kaslo, says : I believe if we did not have the
Chinese here we could have white servant girls, which would be much better. There is
no encouragement now for them to come to this section. As it is there are only a few
here and they get lonesLime.

AMERICAN EVIDENCE.

A. H. Grout, Labour commissioner, Seattle, said : There are probably fifty Chinese
cooks in Seattle in private families. Japanese have been getting into places as substitutes
for Chinese. The Japanese help in that line is I think more satisfactory on the whole
than the Chinese. They get in where employers cannot secure white women. Employers
here prefer white help, but white help has been a little scarce for sometime ; $15 to $30
a month for general domestic help ; Chinese and white girls are about the same.
Occasionally a good Chinaman may get a little more, but generally the white girl gets
as good wages as the Chinaman. You cannot get a good Chinaman to take a position
in a family for less than §20 or §25 a month. He knows he can get it ; that is an
experienced Chinaman. I advertised in Chicago and New York for white girls for
domestic service. >Some girls came here and got good positions, but were very soon picked
up by the young men here, — got married and became good citizens. I think good white
girls could be easily got for domestic ser-s-ice were they paid the same wages as the
Chinese are paid. Most of the domestic service in this city is performed by white gii'ls,
and the ser\ice has been very satisfactory. The demand has always been in excess of
the supply. We could fill fifty places if the girls were available to-day. There has not
been a time within the last few years that we could not place twenty girls at a time.
The American girls perfer other callings where the work is lighter and perhaps where
the hours are shorter.

Q. Does that dearth of domestic help cause many families to go boarding ? — A. It
has quite an effect in that direction ; I know of several instances where families have
been obliged to do without help for several weeks, and finally they have had to close up
their homes and go boarding. Several cases I know of.

Q. You furnish white and Chinese and Japanese, no distinction 1 — A. In domestic
service the girls are scarce, and so people are glad to get Chinese or Japanese, but that is
the only department affected in that way.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 173

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Do you think the presence of large numbers of Chinese and Japanese here would
have a tendency to keep white labour from coming in ?— A. Yes, I think so. It would
have a tendency to keep out domestic servants also. If there were large numbers of
Chinese here the wages would be reduced and that would Vje an inducement to people
to get that kind of help.

Where the white labourer goes he takes his family with him and-from that source
the greater part of our white domestic help is drawn. If the families were withdrawn
from this market then their places would be filled with Chinese and Japanese. We
would rather have white men and their families and do without the Chinese and
Japanese altogether.

Miss Nina Kocklowski, assistant to the last witness in the labour bureau of Seattle,
said : All applications for domestic service come before me. Most all the places are
filled by whites. Very few families have coloured help. A great many families do not
care to take coloured girls in, although those whom they have taken into domestic ser-
vice make good house servants. There are some Japanese employed in households in
the city. The Japanese prefer to go to service where they can work part of the day and
get away to go to school in the afternoon. Most of our people prefer to get white girls
as domestic servants. The Chinese as a rule want too high wages ; they want to get
from .§30 to $.3.5 a month, whereas a white girl will be paid from .$20 to $2.5 a month.
The Chinese I speak of is a first class cook. Six Chinese have come in since I have been
in the ofEce, that is since November, 1899 ; .534 white girls have applied to me for
domestic ser\'ice this month ; 534 was just for one month. These are what I sent out.
That was the number of orders for girls. I am sure there were 500 places filled anyway.
Sometimes there is a scarcity and at other times the supply is equal to the demand.
Friday and Saturday I find that girls are scarce. I can get whatever number of girls I
want. I think I could get two hundred girls all right. I have about fifty orders now.
The proportion of Chinese and Japanese to whites is very small indeed. There are other
employment agencies in the city. Many families go to the Chinese and Japanese boarding
houses. The figures I have given only apply to our own office. Very few families care
to take Japanese help, and as to the Chinese, they want very high wages, and families
do not care about taking them and paying such high wages.

Last month we supplied in the neighbourhood of four hundred girls with places.
Quite a number apply for places to do washing, scrubbing and the like. The wage
paid is $1.50 a day and the hours of labour are from eight until five o'clock. Quite a
number of girls come from the east, from Minnesota and around there. Quite a number
of girls came from Victoria in January last, but lately not .so many. They wanted to
get housework.

Q. We have been tohl that girls are scarce in Victoria, that they cannot get them
at all ? — A. I do not doubt it, because the girls come o\n- here and get better pay.
From what I hear from the girls coming here, they are not well paid in Victoria. Not
long ago a girl came and told me that she wanted to get domestic service here. I asked
her where she came from, as she appeared to be a very good girl ; she told me she came
from Victoria, that she had been working there for $8 a month in Victoria, and work-
ing for a family of six. It is no surprise to me that girls should come here and prefer
to live here working hai'd for a little pay in Victoi-ia. The girl secured a good place
here at good wages, and the family are well satisfied with her.

In .January there were six girls from Canada applied for work ; thej^ came from
Victoria to Seattle. The wages are from .$20 to $25 a month ; the going wages are $20
a month.

Note. — The city of Seattle established in 1894 a free labour bureau and employ-
ment office, and has maintained it ever since. Last year this office found places for
27,605 workmen and from 400 to 500 domestic servants per month. (See 7th Annual
Report of the Labour Commissioner of the City of Seattle for the year 1 900, at page
222 of American evidence taken under this Commission.)

James D. Phelan, Mayor of San Francisco, said : The Chinese are engaged largely
in domestic service. People who cannot get white domestics go down to Chinatown
and get Chinamen. I think this is very undesirable. The Chinaman engages in domes

174 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

tic service through the day and at night he returns to Chinatown and engages in gam-
bling and opium smoking, and in the morning returns to the domestic circle, and what
the effect of his associating with gamblers and opinm smokers in Chinatown has upon
the domestic circle, I leave it for yourselves to picture. Some people have an aversion
to Chinese in their homes. Those who have them, I must say, consider them very valu-
able as domestic servants. The Chinese have been so long in domestic service that they
have crowded out the white girls. It is one of the problems of the day to find places
for our young women. I liave helped mj'self within the last three months to establish a
place, from which families could get wliite women to work. We got a number of sewing
machines and got white girls to make up women's work, but we had to give it up. The
Chinese would bring their wares to the stores and sell them cheaper than we could produce
them. The Chinese have crept into a great many places and people hardly realize what
they are doing.

SUMMARY.

The above fairly indicates the different Wews expressed on this subject. A number
of witnesses stated that girls refused to take service where Chinese are employed, and
doubtless there is some force in this.

Many complain that after obtaining white servants at great expense and with diffi-
culty, sometimes from the eastern pi'ovinces, and sometimes from the Old Country, they
marry within a very short time, and after trying to supply their places with white
servants are compelled to engage the Chinamen. The fact that Chinese servants are
always to be had when wanted, and that white servants are difficult to obtain, accounts
partly for the fact that Chinese are cliiefiy employed, although white servants would be
preferred by many.

While opinions differ, it may at once be conceded that under present conditions it
is exceedingly difficult to obtain white servants, and a large proportion of those who
employ domestic servants are dependent upon the Chinese for a supply.

The cause of this abnormal scarcity of white domestic servants is not far to seek.
The callings requiring unskilled labour are largely filled by Chinese and Japanese, who
have thus taken the places of fathers of families from which, under normal conditions,
domestic servants would be drawn.

In Victoria for instance there are 3,000 Chinese engaged in various callings, or
unemployed : 198 market gardeners, 48 sawmill hands, 886 cannerymen, 197 laundry-
men, and over 800 labourers employed and unemployed. Can it be doubted that if these
positions were filled with white men, a large' proportion of whom might be expected to
have families, the difficulty of obtaining white servants would be greatly minimized ']
If callings usually filled by white men, with families from which domestic servants are
usually supplied, are occupied by Chinese, is it surprising that there is a great scarcity
of domestic servants, and how can it be expected to be otherwise until these conditions
are changed I This applies with greater or less force throughovit tlie province.

In Nanaimo for instance, with a Chinese population of over -500, only 42 are
employed as domestic servants and cooks. In New Westminster, with a Chinese popu-
lation of over 700, 6.5 only are cooks and domestic servants ; and in Vancouver, where
the Chinese number over 2,000, only 262 are so employed. The Chinese both create
and fill the want.

While on the Canadian side the greater number of the domestic servants and cooks
are either Chinese or Japanese on the American side, in Washington and Oregon,
comparatively few appear to be so employed. In Seattle it was stated that there were
about fifty Chinese cooks, and that only six had been sent out through the City Labour
Bureau since November, 1899, while 534 white domestic servants had been placed within
a month. In Portland there are said to be about 200 Chinese employed as domestic
servants. There is the usual scarcity of domestic servants in Seattle, but at the time we
visited that city the supply was said to equal the demand. It is not suggested here that
if there were no Chinese or Japanese in British Columbia there would be no difficulty in
obtaining domestic servants, but it is belie^'ed that if the positions now occupied by

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 175

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Chinese were filled with white men, the conditions would be much the same as in the
east. At present there seems to be a surplus of both Chinese and Japanese, some of
whom doubtless will take to domestic service, and should no more Chinese come into the
country, with the present supply already thei'e, this question like others will adjust itself
to the new conditions.

CHAPTER XVII.— THE LAUNDRY BUSINESS.

The laundry business in British Columbia is largely in the hands of the Chinese.
In Victoria there are 40 Chinese wash houses, giving employment to 197 Chinamen, in
Vancouver 3.5, employing 192 ; in New Westminster 9, employing 38 ; in Rossland 20,
employing 60 Chinamen, and other towns and villages in proportion.

These wash houses occupied by Chinese are in different parts of the city, and a
tenement that i.s not fit for anything else is usually rented for that purpose. They are
regarded as a nuisance and a menace by those who live in the vicinity, and great
difficulty has been had to enforce sanitary regulations in regard to th'em by the city
authorities. The average wages paid are from §8 to $18 pei' month, and board.

Steam laundries are also used in the principal cities and towns. As to how far
they are able to compete will appear in the evidence quoted ; but it is quite clear that
white labour, having regard to the cost of living, cannot compete with the Chinese.

A. F. McCrimmon has carried on a steam laundry business in Victoria for eight
years. He employs seven men and twenty-three women and girls. His charges are
higher than the Chinese. He pays his men from $10 to $15 a week, and his girls
and women from $i to #7.50 a week. He has capacity for eight or ten more hands.
There was another steam laundry started in Victoria, but quit the business as it could
not get work enough. There is sufiicient work in Victoria to keep four steam laundries
busy if there were no Chinese. It would take three or four times the number of
Chinese to do the work as well without steam. He favoured a tax of $500, or exclusion.

It will be seen from the above that if this business was entirely done by steam
laundries, there would be employed 28 men and 91 women and girls.

Donald M. Stewart has a steam laundry in Vancouver. There are four there,
including the C. P. R. hotel. Mr. Stewart employs from 70 to 75 hands. He says the
Chinese do nearly three-fourths of the work. All the steam laundries employ white
people.

Alfred Larcen has a steam laundry in Nelson and employs fourteen hands. He
pays out wages amounting from $840 to $900 per month. He has no difficulty in
getting help. He pays three hands $18 a week each, one $15 a week, girls $10 a week,
overtime extra. He has capacity for three times the work he does. He employs white
labour exclusively. He says he cannot do the laundry work as low as the Chinese. He
has expended in the laundry business $28,000 in two years.

At Grand Forks the steam laundry had to close down on account of the Chinese
competition.

At Greenwood the laundiy is still in business. Before it started the Chinese
charged 75 cents per dozen, afterwards they dropped to 25 cents per dozen.

Mrs. Walsh, a widow, residing at Nelson, complained that she could not compete
with the Chinese and lost her means of livelihood.

Mrs. Josephine Marshall, the vice-president of the laundry workers' union of Nel-
son, pointed out that many white women who had to earn their own living, could not
get enough work to do, on account of the competition of the Chinese. This witness
declared that there were plenty of girls that could not get work.

176 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
EXHIBIT 67 B.

RESOLUTION TO ROYAL COMMISSION FROM NELSON LAUNDRY WORKERS' UNION.

Nelson, B.C., February 14, 1901.

Confronted by direct Mongolian competition, we the undersigned members on
behalf of the Nelson Laundry Workers' Union do condemn and declai-e the same to be
injurious to our business to the extent that about seventy-five per cent of the laundry
in this city, and all in the outlying towns and camps, is done by Chinamen, thereby
curtailing the pay roll of our countrpnen by eighty per cent and the number employed
to a like amount.

In the laundry work in Nelson alone there are at the lowest estimate two lumdred
Chinamen employed at a wage varying from 7.5 cents to .§1.50 per day, their hours of
labour extending over the whole twenty-four hovirs, with barely time to eat and sleep.
In some wash-houses a double gang is worked, the ofl" men sleeping in the same apart-
ment as those working and often sleeping on clothes to be washed ; and their habits are
such that we feel sure that in many cases a health officer would condemn the same as
injurious to public health.

Knowing the above to be true, we have no hesitation in saying, were the Mon-
golians removed fi'om the Kootenays, in addition to the tw'o steam laundries, owned by
the firm for whom we work at Nelson and Greenwood, each costing well on to §10,000,
there would be at the present, room for five more each employing from fifteen to twenty
hands and paying a fair profit to their owners, which we are sorry to say is not the case
now-.

Trusting that the Commission will see the necessity of immediate action, we extend
our most heai-ty appi'oval and support to any legislation which will effectually remove
this evil of Mongolian labour.

Signed on behalf of the union,

Mrs. MARSHALL, Vice-President,
JOHN TEMPLETON,
CARL LARSON, Secretary,
I. J. LARSON,
ROBERT NIEVLAIDES.

Ming Lee, laundryman (farmer in China), .says : I have been in business eiglit
years in Victoria. Pay ray men from 817 to 818 a month ; the lowest $8 a month. I
bos-rd mv men. I send home between -SlOO and .$120 a year. I expect to return to
China as soon as I get money. My wife is in China. I had six acres of land in China.
It cost $80 Chinese money to live there. I intend to go back to China by and by. If
there were no tax on the wives and children I think Chinamen would bring their w'ives
and families to this country. I w-ould certainly bring my wife. It costs too much
money to keep them liere and feed them here.

Sun Sam Cheong, laundryman, who has lived eighteen years in Victoria, says : As
soon as I arrived I went into the laundry business. I went home and came back and
took it up again, and have been in it up to date. I have a wife and three children in
China. Sometimes I send SlOO a year and sometimes .$130, and the lai'gest amount I
ever sent is SI 80 a vear. I employ ten men, including myself. The highest wage I pay
is $18 a month and the lowest is $6 a month. I have hardly enough work to keep my
men busy. I pay $20 a month rent. I am in debt now, because I have so much of
debt that cannot be collected. I board the men I employ. Each man costs me about
$7 or $8 a month. If I did not make so many bad debts I would earn something.
Several years ago I made some earnings, but during several years I hardly make any
earnincs at all. The largest amount of money that any man owes me for a bad debt is
$100 ; one man owes me that. That man's washing comes to •$•5 a month. I have been
washinf for liim since starting the laundry business. Four men owe me about that,
and lots of them owe me from $10 to $20. As to honesty, Chinese and whites are
about the same.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 177

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Mar San, launch yniaii, of Nelson, says : I have eight or nine men in my laundry.
There are nine Chinese laundries altogether in Nelson. I and two others employ eight
or nine men. The rest employ two or three men eaeh, — altogether about fifty Chinese
laundrymen. I have been here eight years. My wife is in China. I pay my men $20
a month and give them board. I pay §18 a month for rent, and $10 a year for license.
I own one house in Chinatown. The lot cost .$8.50 ; the house cost •$l,.iOO. I can't tell
if $100 is too much to pay, head tax. I can't say if iJ.oOO will keep the Chinese out. I
don't care. I am not a British subject.

A. H. Grout, Labour Commissioner, Seattle, says : I should judge that from one-
sixth to (jne-eighth of the work done by laundries is done by Chinese, and the other
seven-eights of the work is done in laundries where white peojjle are employed.

SUMMARY.

The result of the evidence seems to be, that probably from eight hundred to one
thousand Chinamen are engaged in this business. They do theii' work well, and are, in
many places where steam laundries do not and cannot exist, a great convenience, but at
the same time they take the place of many poor people who would find in this employ-
ment an addition to their stinted means.

This may be looked upon as a trivial matter, but in the aggregate it is large.
Doubtless the work is done cheaper than it would be by white labour, but a large pro-
portion of the money paid for the service does not return into circulation, but, as in the
case of other employments occupied by Chinese, passes out of the country. There is
probably paid out in wages to Chinese laundrymen in British Columbia over §200,000
a year, a small proportion of which benefits the country at large.

CHAPTER XVIII— PART I— MERCHANT TAILORS.

During the course of the investigation it was frequently stated that Chinese labour
was employed in the more menial and unskilled employments, and that there was no
danger of it encroaching upon the difierent trades and callings where higher wages are
obtained. How far this is so, will appear fi-om the examination of this and other trades,
where they have already entered, and in some cases supply all the labour except
the foreman.

James Andrew Grant, a merchant tailor, of fifteen j^ears' standing in Victoria,
says: In 1891 there were eighteen white tailor shops employing 1.50 men and women,
with a yearly wage of over §109,000 ; average weekly wages for men §18, for women .§10.
A Tailors' Union existed with a membership of 130.

The first competition from Chinese was in 1891. Then there were 150 whites em-
ployed. On March 1.3, 1901, there were employed in Victoria in the tailoring business
twenty-one white men and 30 women and girls, with an average wage for the men of
$12 j5er week, and for the women §6 per week, giving a yearly total of about §22,464.
In the meantime the population of the city has nearly doubled. The decrease in wages
is §86,73(i per year. To what extent has tliis change been brought about by Chinese
entering into competition in this line of business?

There are fourteen firms of Chinese merchant tailor.s, employing eighty- four hands •
in the manufacture of clothes for white people. This does not include two firms who
manufacture Chinese clothing. It must not be supposed that these Chinese firms manu-
facture the cheaper class of clothing ; the contrary is the fact. The evidence was
indisputable, that many of their firms have a very large trade in the highest class of
work, including ladies' tailor-made dresses, which it was said formed about one-third of
their business.

Daniel Campbell, who is a high-class tailor, said that he had carried on business in
Victoria since 1889. Wages were about fifty per cent lower now than then. He now
54—12

178 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

employs one hand where before he employed sixteen. Victoria then contained about
16,000 of population, now about 25,000. The Chinese competition has caused this. He
then, as did other merchant tailors, went into great detail as to the cost of manufacture.
He still paid for high-class work 818 per week. He had to move into cheaper premises
•where he now pays $40 a month for rent instead of 880, owing to the falling off in busi-
ness. He says a suit that would cost 835, the Chinese tailor sells for 818 to §22. That
simply drove them out. A serge suit which he would sell for $28 they would sell for
$18. Their work would not pass his inspection at all.

The figures quoted above show a decrease in the actual number of hands employed
from 150 in 1891 to 135 in 1901 ; in the former year only white hands were employed,
whereas in the latter year eighty-four Chinese are included in the total. This decrease
in the number of hands employed, in 'S'iew of the increase in population, and of the fact
that the Chinese engage in ladies' tailoring, and, also, in tailoring for their own people,
would indicate the extent to which eastern ready-made clothing has encroached upon the
tailoring business, but the fact remains that the Chinese do more than half of the ' made
to order ' clothing in Victoria.

John Logg, a journeyman tailor, of ^'ictoria, put it in this wa}- : I came here in
1889. I stayed two years at that time : conditions were good. My wac^s averaged
over $20 a week. About ninety men and sixty women were employed. Now the
average wage is about 812 a week for men and about §6 for women. The Chinese came
into competition and are taking almost the whole trade. It is impossible for a white
man to compete with them. Whenever I pass at eight, ten or eleven o'clock p.m. the
hands are working. The white men can hardly live here, and they have left. Their
manner and mode of living is altogether different. I am a married man and have four
children. I don't know of a single ease of any Chinese house like a white man's. Our
business will be wiped out. If things do not change, and that soon, I will leave with
my family, and leave the country. It seems to apply to other trades as well as our own.
It will stop the flow of immigration into this country. Most of the journeymen have
families. The Chinese competitor does not bring his wife with him.

This witness gave a carefully prepared statement of the cost of living for himself
and family for one year in Victoria. The family consists of himself, wife and four
children.

Rent, $8 per month 8 96

Groceries, meat, milk, ifcc 365

Fuel, wood and coal, 82.50 per month 30

Boots and shoes 40

Dry goods and clothing, .self 30

" " wife 30

" " children, 810 each 40

School supplies 12

Scavenger 9

Taxes 5

Furniture, dishes, ifec 5

Total 8662

There should be added something for laundry, fraternal societies, newspapers, church,
doctors' bills, nursing, kc. If all these were added it would bring up the cost of living
.to $800 a year. I am living in a house altogether too small. If I had a large enough
house it would cost 84 a month more. A white man cannot exist on wages bi'ought
about by Chinese competition.

T. R. Smith, Victoria, commission merchant, said : When I came here to Victoria
first there was tailoring done by white tailors. No tailor would work for less than so
much per garment, and the cost of clothing was then so high that it induced a great
many from Toronto and Montreal to send their travellers here, and they took a large
part of the business away from the tailors here. If they had been content with less
profit the trade would all have been kept liere.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE UIMWl'ATION 179

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Samuel McPherson, merchant tailor, and member of tlie Merchant Tailors' Asso-
ciation, Vancouver, says : I was appointed at a meeting to appear here and answer any
questions. The Chinese have aii'ected our trade some, but not as much hen; as in
Victoria as yet. There are three shops here, one Japanese and two Chinese shops, who
do custom tailoring for white people ; one employs from four to six hands. The princi-
pal work they do here is in the manufacture of overalls and shirts for the wholesale
furniture establishment. Apart from these three shops I do not know of any others who
do custom work.

Q. Was that the work that used to be done by white men and women — the making
of o\-eralls and shirts ? — A. Not in this country that I am aware of, not in the Pro-
vince of British Columbia. From my own standpoint as a merchant tailor I do
object to the Chinese coming in. I do not think the}' are any good to the country.

If their numbers increased in the trade as it has done in Victoria, it would be a
very serious injury to our trade here. I am more dissatisfied with the way in which
they learn the trade than with the present restriction ; they learn their trade from the
Dominion Government. They are committed to the penitentiary for some offence ;
they learn the trade in the penitentiary ; there is one of them in Vancouver now and
one in Victoria and another one who is here.

Q. What would you do with them ? — A. Let them learn something else.

Q. What else i — A. Well, speaking from a selfish point of view, any trade that
does not interfere w-ith me. The reason I mention it is — I was trade inspector in the
penitentiary for three years, and those three men were there. One is now doing quite a
business on the corner of Hastings Street and Columbia Avenue ; they are in the same
business as I am ; they buy from the same wholesale man as I do, but when a white
man goes there to buy from them they do not want their names to appear in English on
their books ; their names are put down in Chine.se ; that is what one of them told me
himself.

I am in favour of further restriction ; we can get on very nicely without any
more of them. Jly reason for favouring restriction or exclusion is that there is danger
from them of dri\ ing our men out of the business.

The tailoring has not improved in the last three years ; it is not as good as it used
to be.

Q. Why ? — A. Well, eastern competition as much as anything else, and there are
more tailors. There is not .so much business done by them altogether as there was three
years ago.

There are three shops, averaging from four to six men apiece, say fifteen hands
altogether, of Chinese and Japanese. Of the white shops there are over twenty, •with
from eighty to eighty-five workmen ; in a dull season perhaps about forty-five.

Q. If a factory is established here working exclusively with Mongolian labour
would it be possible foi' them to produce so cheaply as to shut out eastern competition I
— A. Yes ; that is my idea, that Mongolian labour should not be allowed to come into
competition with our own people here.

Ale.x. McCallum, merchant tailor, of Vancouver, said :

Q. Do I take it that the Merchant Tailors' Association as a whole are opposed to
further Chinese inmiigration 1 — A. Yes, as far as the association was represented. We
were all jiresent at that meeting.

Q. Is there any other special point you wish to bring before the Commission? — A.
Did Mr. McPherson refer to the teaching of Chinese in the penitentiary?

Q. Yes. — A. I am not familiar with that, but I am anxious that that sliould be
brought out.

There is no distinction between the Chinese and Japanese as far as our particular
trade is concerned. Their prices are far too low. The prices would indicate that the
wages they pay to their men were such that white men could not make garments and
live here. Their charges for a suit are so low that they indicate that no white man
could work for the same wages. We would prefer all white labour here. Then we do
not get any advantage from tliose people as customers. As soon as they make a little
money they send it away to China and Japan, instead of spending it for clothes as
white people do.
54— 12i

180 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Francis Williams, a jouruejTuan tailor in Vancouver, said : There is so much com-
petition bv Chinese and Japanese that the white man will be dyiven out of the trade
unless the immigration of these people is restricted or stopped. Twelve vears ago when
I came here I knew but two or three Cliinese engaged in trade and no Japanese. To-day
the Chinese and Japanese outnumber the whites by three to two. The number of white
tailors here is fifty-five or sixtj', the Chinese and Japanese 120; of these, ninety to one
hundred are Chinese.

Tim Kee, a Chinese tailor of Victoria, stated that he employs from two to four men
and pays them from $25 to f 35 a month. The men commence work at 9 o'clock and
usually quit at 8 o'clock at night, with an hour allowed each for dinner and supper. He
further says :

Q. What do you charge your men for board 1 — A. We charge about $10 a month.
Q. Is that deducted from their wages 1 — A. No, we pay them so much a month in
clothes, board and lodging.

Q. Where they have lodgings to pay, how much do they pa}' ? — A. It is this way :
two, or three get together and rent a room. They get a room for $3, $4 or $5 a month
and all live together.

Q. Sometimes more live together ? — A. Yes, sometimes six live together.
Q. How many have you known join together in renting a room ?— A. Four or five.
Q. How large a room would that be ?^A. About 8 feet by 1 2 feet.
Q. What I would like to know is what it would actually cost a Chinaman to live
in the way you describe ? — A. I would say $7 or ,58 a month.

Q. What do you charge for lodging alone? — A. About -$1.50.

Q. If it is not so good then it would be $1 ? — A. Yes. I do not have any lodging
house ; we give them a bunk and they get their own clothes. We charge them so much
rent per month.

Q. And he furnishes his own blankets ? — A. Yes, sir.

Q. And the usual price for that is ffi a mouth 1 — A. Yes, that is the usual price.
This witness further stated that the cost of board for a labouring man boarding
himself would be about $4 . 50 or $5 a month.

Charlie Bo, another Chinese tailor of Victoria, employed six hands and paid from
.S30 to $40 a month and their board and lodging. The hours of work given bv this
witness were the same as the last. He says : The average amount of business altogether
that I do in a month is about $900. I guess I make seventeen or eighteen suits of
clothes a month. From January to December it averages about fifteen suits a month
that we make for white men. We average about fifteen suits a month for white men in
th6 year, and for Chinese from eighteen to twenty suits a month. The Chinese suits
costs .$12, $14, $16 and $20, different prices.

Yuen Wall, Victoria, a Chinese journeyman tailor, said : He worked for $30 a
month and board and lodging, and works from 8 o'clock in the morning till 8 o'clock at
night, with an hour allowed out for meals.

Alexander Peden, journeyman tailor of Victoria, said : About ten years ago Mr.
Jackson employed sixteen or seventeen hands. He paid them as high as $20 a week,
and it has just gradually' fallen away, until now he employs eight men, half the number
he did then, and at that time we only did men's tailoring. Ladies' tailoring furnishes
about one-third of the work. A good deal of ladies' tailoring is done by Chinese. If
we only did men's tailoring we could only employ five men for that. I attribute the
falling" off wholly to the Chinese. We cannot compete with their prices at all. A suit
the Chinese make up for $14 we could not make for less than $22 or $23.

William H. Middleton, Secretary of the Western Central Labour Union, Seattle,
said : There are a few Chinese tailors here. It is not a very serious competition with
white tailors, and they are not patronized at all by organized labour ; that is to say, if
we discover any of our members patronizing the Chinese stores, the organization would
not stand it. A man doing that would be at once expelled from the union. No white
man is able to compete with Chinese labour.

It is quite clear on compai'ing the cost of the different suits, that it was impossible
for the white tailor to compete, without reducing wages below what a journeyman tailor

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 181

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

with a family could live upon and properly support and educate his children. If matters
continue for a few years as in the past the Chinese tailors will practically control this
source of employment.

PART II.— WHOLESALE MANUFACTURE OF CLOTHING.

The wholesale manufacture of clothing in the pro\-ince is chiefly centred in Victoria.
White women and girls and Chinese are largely employed in this industry, but the
Chinese have almost entirely displaced white labour in some branches.

The change came about in this way, as explained by James Andrew Grant, of
Victoria. He says : We concluded to go into manufacturing (of clothing). We put
in plant costing us o\'er .?2,0(.)0 for the latest machinery. We got work from the whole-
sale merchants at a price we thought we could make money at. They told us the prices
they had been paying to the Chinese, and we were informed that they would give us the
preference over the Chinese and that, while the Chinese took the most of their payments
for work out in trade, they would pay us in casli. That was the information we got
from the wholesale houses. We got §6. -50 a dozen for the best grade of ready-made.
I refer to this particular branch as an illustration. The Chinese found that this was
going to injure their trade, and they oifered to do the work for 85.50 a dozen. The
wholesale house informed us that we could have the trade at $5.50 for the same work.
They admitted to us that our work was superior, but they were not willing to make any
sacrifice to us. Well, the end of it all was that the price came down to $4.50 a dozen,
and we could not compete at that. That is 84.50 for making a dozen pairs of pants.
If you want to have evidence I can produce the books to show the figures I have men-
tioned to be correct. We employed about forty hands at that time. We employed
sixty hands in all. We employed forty hands at that time for that business. These
hands were not tailors or tailoresses. They were machine operators and finishers and
pressers. I may say we went out of the manufactui'ing business.

Q. Why did you do that 1 — A. Well, it was a financial failure. We could not pos-
sibl}- make a success of it. We were unable to compete with the Chinamen. We were
losing money.

Q. Can you speak of the wages you were paying? — A. W^e were .paying from $16
to 840 a month for that class of work. We paid 816 a month to hands who were learn-
ing. In that class of work we employed no tailors at all. They could make at first at
that class of work 816 a month, and afterwards earned 840 a month when they were
expert at it.

Q. What proportion of these were women ? — A. All women except the pressers.

Q. White women ? — A. Yes. We decided to try and keep the hands on. We
asked them to work by the piece and see what they could earn. The girls worked hard
and they earned about forty cents a day. That is all they could earn on piece work.
Needless to say they quit piece work. We still kept them on for some time, because at
that time the Klondike rush came on, and we were able to pay them big wages. But
that was the end of the manufactui-e for the wholesale houses. In the experiment we
made with piece work we counted on nothing towards paving our rent. We simply
paid the girls what was coming to them, and they could make about forty cents a day.
The hands we were paying 81 a day before that, could only make forty cents a day on
piece work when the price was reduced to 81.50. W"e were running our tailoring busi-
ness in connection with that, or else we could not have kept it up so long. We niade a
little on that and lost it in the other. We could not compete with the Chinamen at the
prices paid for any of the other garments even, such as jackets, coats, lumbermen's
jackets, waiters' jackets and dift'erent kinds of jackets in addition to pants and
overalls.

Q. I understand you to say that you started at the price the wholesale men were
paying to tlie Chinese ; then the Chinese dropped below it ; you came down to their

182 BEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

price again, until finally a point was reached where you could not manufacture except
at a loss ; then you gave up the business ? — A. Yes, we went out of that line of business.

The work is done by Chinese through Chinese contractors.

George Allen Kirk, wholesale merchant, of Victoria, says : When I have had goods
made by Chinese they were put out by piece work to the different Chinese contractors.

Q. E^■idence has been gi\en here that work was done for the wholesale houses by
Chinese, more particularly in the manufacture of clothing ; that the Chinese reduced the
prices ; that white men lowered their prices to meet that of the Chinese ; but again the
Chinese lowered the prices and the white men followed suit, and then the Chinese
lowered their prices for the third time, and came down so low that white men, even with
the aid of machinery, could not compete, and the white men were driven out ? — A. The
work is cut out by our company, and is given to the Chinese to make up.

Q. Do you find the competition of the Chinese has a tendency to reduce prices \ —
A. Yes, but I do not think it is the Chinese only that bring prices down. We have
competition from the east as well in the making of overalls.

Q. Are your importations greater in value than the articles manufactured in Canada,
speaking of the trade generally ? — A. That of course I cannot say. I know we make
nearly everything in the line that is sold. We do import overalls sometimes from San
Francisco.

Q. Are they equally satisfactory ? — A. We pi efer to have them made here.

Q. In that ease do you consider it better for the country and for the Province to
have the goods manufactured here ? — A. I think it better to have them manufactured
here, even wdth Chinese labour, because we make more on them than on the stuff we
import.

If they were imported from the other side I would not employ men here at all, but
simply sit down and write a letter and order so many dozen of such and such goods.

Q. Wouldn't you prefer to see the class of garments you manufacture here by
Chinese labour manufactured by white labour in the east, in preference to importing
alien labour here and the trade going into their hands ? — A. No, it is a matter of profit
to me.

Q. Don't you see that if you employ that class of labour in your trade the final
result will be that other trades will employ the same class of labour ? — A. Yes.

Q. Are you able to say how the prices paid for making up these garments compare
with the prices paid in the east for the same class of work ? — A. I do not know, but
we are able to manufacture a little below eastern prices now.

Q. That is to say, you pay a little less than eastern labour plus the freight ? — A.
Yes, we can .sell at the same price that eastern men sell, only we claim tx) make a better
article.

Q. Do you know the conditions under which the goods are manufactured in the
east, with which you have to compete ? — A. No, I do not.

Q. You do not know the systematic conditions ? — A. I think they ha\e factories
and they employ a large number of girls. They have cutters who get out a large
quantity of work, and I think that work is done by piece work.

Q. You refer to the big eastern cities, do you ? — A. I refer to Slontreal and Toronto.

W. A. Lorimer, salesman for Turner, Beeton it Company, of Victoria, described
the method of procuring this work to be done by stating that : We make no contracts ;
just as the work requires to be done we give it out to the Chinese boss. Four Chinese
firms do our work. It amounts to about S300 a month in trade. We have our canvas
work done by white labour. It costs more, but I give white men the preference, pro-
bably as a matter of sentiment. Our house handles coarse clothing, such as mackinaw.
The Chinese manufacture these. Women could do this work, but it would necessitate
putting in a power plant. We pay §-1..50 for pants and 65.00 for coats a dozen. The
Chinese tell me they pay their men from !?8 or 810 up to 82-5 a month and board them.

Moses Lenz o^ Victoria, said : We manufacture shirts, overalls, underwear, pants
and the like, canton flannel and flannel underwear. The Chinese are principally engaged
in the manufacture of overalls and pants. This work amounts from 8150 to .8200 a
month. We also have a factory where white hands are engaged, 27 at present.

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 183

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

manufacturing principally shirts, underwear, itc. Au experienced girl is paid f 20 a
month. Good gii'ls earn as high as ."$30 a month ; apprentices $10.

Q. What are the Chinese able to make usually 1 — A. We pay them by the dozen.
For pants all the way up from $3.50 to .|.5 a dozen.

Q. What kind of pants ? — A. Tweed and worsted pants.

Q. Sujiposing there was absolute prohibition of any further imm-igi'ation of Chinese,
are there enough here for the present trade? — A. Yes, for the present trade ; but last
season we were very bus}^, and we could hardly get our work done. It was veiy hard
to fill all our orders.

Q. Last year vou had the Yukon ti'ade ? — A. Yes, we had our <:iwn factory and
got all the outside help we could get.

Q. Could you aft'ord to employ whites with machines at your trade 1 — A. I think
the class of manufacture is too low for white men.

Q. White girls I — A. We employ all the white girls we can get.

Q. Do you prefer them to Chinese ? — A. We do in most work. They do better
work.

Q. You have never made up your mind whether you were in favour of unrestricted
immigration or not? — A. No.

Q. Are you able to hold your own with the eastern manufacturers ? — A. As a rule
we are able to compete with the eastern people ; in very low lines of goods we may not
be able to compete. We cannot compete in the low lines, either by white labour or
Chinese ; but in the most of our manufactures it is cheaper for us to manufacture here.
It is an advantage to us to manufacture. If we bought the goods we could hardly be
able to compete with other houses. The majority of the factories sell both to the
wholesale and retail trade. They would compete witli us in selling tlieir own goods.
If we were to buy from diflei'ent houses, probablj' three or four travellers would be
selling the same identical line of goods.

Q. If the Chinese were excluded would it aiFect it ? — A. In present conditions we
could not get the labour. When we first started we had foot power machines, and now
we have electricity. If we could get it, we would employ white laboui'.

A. M. Sanrlell, cutter at Lens & Leiser's, wholesale manufacturers of clothing,
Victoria, says : I should say we had about thirty or thirty-five Chinese engaged in the
business. We average about $200 a month for the work done. They work for other
houses and earn from 90 cents to a dollar a day. We have experienced women who
earn from .f 20 to ."JSO per month. There are not sufiicient girls and women to do the
work. Men could not do it, and live.

Q. What do you pay for trousers a dozen? — A. $2.2.5, $3, $4.-50, and as high as $6.

Q. White men cannot live on that ? — A. No.

Q. There is no diflicult}' in getting Chinese to do the work ? — A. No, there is a
surplus.

Q. A large surjilus, do you think I — A. Yes.

Q. So if the Chinese here are allowed to remain and further Chinese immigration
prohibited entirely, there are quite sufficient Chinese here now to supply the labour
market? — A. Yes, quite sufficient.

Q. You would not be affected in vour business by any restriction or prohibition? —
A. Not at all.

Q. For how long a time to come do you think ? — A. For all time.

Q. So from your standpoint further restriction, or even prohibition, would not
affect your business, leaving the Chinese here that are here ? — A. That is my view.

Q. Are you in favour of restriction or prohibition ; what is your own opinion
about it? — A. I think it would be better for the country in general to have no more
Chinese come in.

Q. There is at present a poll tax of .$100 I — A. That is not sufficient.

Q. We were told by one witness that the white men did the work satisfactorily,
then the Chinese came down in price, then the white men dropped their price, then the
Chinese dropped their prices again to such an extent that white men could not do the
work and live, and these white men were driven out of the country ? — A, White men

184 EEPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

could not do that class of work — readv made trousers — and compete witli the other
business. I cannot speak of any but ray own business.

Q. You say there is abundance of Cliinese labour here now! — A. Yes.

Q Is that the way all the j-ear through? — A. Yes.

Q. Just as plentiful in summer as in winter 1 — A. Except in the canning season,
and that does not last long.

Q. Have you sufficient of Chinese then ? — A. I think we have sufficient ; not many
tailors go to the canning. There are sufficient left to do all the tailoring we want
done.

Chinese in our employ make overalls, the white girls, shirts. We send the best
tweed pants to Chinese now. I do not think white men ever did it ; it was done by
girls, now by Chinese. If the Chiuese were deported from Victoria, we should have to
go out of the business of making overalls. If the present number of Chinese remain
our trade will not be affected. I think white labour is getting more jilentiful. The
matter \\'ill adjust itself. White labour will have a tendency to increase in this country
if Chinese are kept out.

John Piercy, manufacturer of clothing and men's wear, Victoiia, said : We employ
from ten to twelve or fourteen Chinese, who work by the piece. We contract with two
different men. I am sure I do not know what wages they average ; I have never gone
into it ; probably they earn §10 a week sometimes. Probably we pay out 8250 a month
to the Chinese. We employ those Chinese because we cannot get enough of ^\hite
labour for our factoiy. We have from eighteen to twenty white women employed.
They do a better class of work than the Chinese. I do not think the Chinese capable
of doing as good work as the white women. I think if there was plenty of labour to be
got in the city the white girls could do just as well, if not better, than the Chinese in
the work the Chinese are doing, but we have not got the girls here and cannot get them.
I do not think they are in the city. I think the women earn more than the Chinese,
taking it all through.

Q. Could you carry on your industry here without Chinese labour ? — A. Well, we
could do so, but it would be a loss to us ; at the same time we prefer to have Chinese
labour until we can get more white labour ; that is the position now.

If no more Chinese come in we could get more white labour. With the number of
Chinese that are here and with a probable increase of white labour, I think we could
carry on our business without loss. I am thoroughly in favour of exclusion ; my reason
for that is, sympathy for our own class and our own people. We prefer to give emjiloy-
ment to our own people, if we can get them. We do not want the others to replace
them.

SUiMMARY.

There are several wholesale houses in Victoria that manufacture overalls and special
lines of coarse underclothing and mackinaws, &c. The work is not done by regular
journeymen tailors, but by women and Chinese. One firm put in a plant costing 82,000,
with the latest machinery, and employed about forty hands, obtaining work from the
wholesale merchants at a price which was thought would pay. The Chinese took most
of their payment for work out in trade. This firm was paid in cash. The Cliinese found
that their trade was likely to be injured, and they offered to do it for less. The price
continued to be cut until the firm was driven out of the business. The hands employed
were then allowed to make all they could earn at the present prices ; the girls by work-
ing hard could only earn 40 cents a day on piece work, and quit. Since that time the
work has been divided between women, girls and Chinese. The work done by Chinese
is let by contract to Chinese bosses, who sublet, or engage their own men by the month.
Certain parts of the trade are entirely in the hands of the Chinese. Women are said to
earn from 820 to §30 per month ; apprentices, SIO a month.

All the employers engaged in this business stated that sufficient white women and
girls were not obtainable, and one stated that if the Chinese were deported, he would
have to go out of business. All, however, agreed that the present supply was ample,
and no injury would be done to the trade if no more Chinese were admitted.

ON CHINESE ANJJ JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 185

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHAPTER XIX.— OTHER TRADES AND CALLINGS.

1, The manufacture of boots and .shoes ; 2, cigar making ; 3, brickmaking ; 4, lime /

burning ; 5, fruit canning ; 6, sugar refining ; 7, cordwood cutting ; 8, railways ; 9, the
Canadian Pacific Steamship Company ; 10, railway construction ; 11, electric railways ;
12, freighting.

I. THE MANUFACTURE OF BOOTS AND SHOES.

There is one small boot and shoe factory in the province, at Victoria, employing
sixteen Cliinese, who receive from $1 to $1.35 a day, and four white men at from •'j2 to
$3 a day.

The proprietor, Angus McKeown, who succeeded Ames, Holden & Company,
stated that eight years ago there were 150 Chinese emploj-ed in the industry in Victoria,
and only thirty white men ; now there are sixteen Chinese and four white men. The
market being limited in the west, it was found difficult to compete with eastern manu-
facturers even with Chinese labour, owing to the fact that many lines are required, but
comparatively few of each, so that they cannot be manufactured as cheaply as in the
east. This witness stated tljat he was going to attempt to manufacture with white
labour, as an experiment, or not at all, for the reason that customers are complaining as
to Chinese labour, as the}' prefer to have goods made by white labour than by Chinese,
and that they would rather buy imported boots and shoes than those made by the
Chinese.

The witness also stated that but foi- th» Chinese, there woulfl not ha^•e been such a
thing as that industry here at all at that time. I do nut think the factory would have
existed here but for the Chinese.

Q. Supposing furtlier immigration were restricted what effect would it have on your
business ? — A. I do not think it would have any effect whatever.

Q. Would you like to see the prohibition of the immigration of the coolie labouring
class ? — A. I think there are sufficient, quite sufficient in the country now for all
purposes.

There are only about ten or fifteen shoe shops in Victoria, employing from one to
two white men each. Ready-mades practically govern the trade.

There are two Chinese shoe shops, who employ three hands each, and pay from
$25 to .S30 a month to their men.

William Smythe, of Victoria, a white man, keeps a shoe shoji and employs from one
to two Chinese, paying one §5 and the other ijll a week ; one of these he has had with
him for ten years and never had anj' reason to make any objection to him. This witness
stated that he worked a number of years for Mr. Heathorne, as cutter, who then
employed about eighty Chinese in the boot and shoe manufacture. During the time of
Canadian Pacific Railway construction Mr. Heathorne's sales went up to $10,000 per
month. He speaks very highly of them. They made goods that were saleable and
parties came back for more ; that was proof of their work. We could depend on them
six days in the week. Their hours were from seven to six o'clock, with an hour off for
dinner. He attributes the reduction of men engaged in this line of business to eastern
conqietition. I think competition from the east has driven out more than the Cliinese.
The Cliinamen never made the best goods here. The Chinaman does not make a high
class shoe. About half his trade is with the Chinese.

Q. Could you not obtain white labour at the price vou pay Chinese ? — A. I cannot
get white men I can rely on. They become demoralized.

Q. How do you account for white men becoming demoralized here 1 — A. They are
not good because they attend Lodges of Knights of Labour, and things of that kind.
The}- are not as docile or as steady as the Chinese. When I want a couple of men I
have to have men I can depend on.

186 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. You favour prohibition of further immigration of the Chinese ? — A. 1 do not.

Q. You favour restriction ? — A. No, .sir. I think wliite men ought to be able to
compete with them on easy terms.

Q. Would you favour unlimited immigration 1 — A. Yes.

It may be noted here that tliis witness is one of two or three who are in favour of
unrestricted inmiigration of the Chinese.

SUMMARY.

* It has been found ditlicult, if not impossible, to compete against the eastern trade,
even with Chinese labour, in the manufacture of boots and shoes in British Columbia.
At on'? time about eighty Chinese were employed in this business ; now there is
but one factory, employing sixteen Chinese, and the proprietor stated his intention to
be, to try the experiment of manufacturing exclusively with white labour, or not all.
There are two Chinese shoe shops, employing three hands each. There are from ten to
fifteen shoe shops, employing one or two white men each, and one instance where a white
man employs a Chinese in his shoe shop. This gentleman was in favour of unlimited
Chinese immigration. The proprietor of the factory favoured exclusion, and stated that
his business would not be affected if furthur immigration of Chinese were restricted.

II. CIGAR MAKING.

•

At Victoria there are thirty-two hands employed, of whom thirteen, including
three girls, are incidental to the business ; that is, thev do some work there, but they
do not roll cigars : that would leave nineteen cigar makers proper.

The rate of wages paid is that of tha Cigar Makers' International Union, which
to<:)k effect on May 1. 1899, and ranges from 811 U) 819 per thousand cigars, that is
81.10 to 81.90 a hundred.

At Victoria there are seven Chinese, including three Chinese women, employed in
the trade. The wages paid to the Chinese are from .50 cents to 81 per liundred cigars
for making.

While cigars are made in many other towns and cities thioughout British Columbia,
the Chinese do not appear to be employed in the trade except at Victoria. Tlie cigars
there made by them, it is said, are chiefly for consmnption by Chinese.

III. BRICKMAKIXO.

There are about three hundred men employed in and about the brick yards in
British Columbia. This number varying of course with the demand. Of this from So
to 90 per cent is Chinese labour. At one time white labour was exclusively employed.
That was many years ago. Then white moulders were still retained \%'ith Chinese labour.
Gradually some of these labourers learned to mould, until on the coast they do all the
moulding and other work in connection with the brickmaking, whites being retained
only as foremen and teamsters. At Kamloops, exclusively white labour is employed.

Morris Humber, Briekmaker, Victoria, says : I employ twenty-three Chinese and
two whites outside of my sons. I pay the Chinese 89 and .SIO a week, and a Chinese
moulder .^i.oO a day. Their board averages 82.95 per week where they live together.
When I started business I paid 84 a day to moulders. A moulder's work is 8,000 bricks
a day, whether he be a white uian, black man, or Chinese. Japanese are not as good
as Chinese. If white men would serve me as well I would have them. At one time I
had all white men. I discharged all my Chinamen and hired all white men. I got
along pretty well for a time ; then they wanted to dictate terms to me, and dictate how
I should run my yard. I came to the conclusion I would either- have to close the yard
or hire all Cliinamen. When first I made bricks we got 812.50 a thousand. The
prices came down to 86, and we now get 87.50 a thousand. I think it would be better
for the Chinamen to staj' in their own country. People would have to pay more for

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 187

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

bricks, there is no doubt about that. Bricks in Eastern Canada are as high as they are
heiT, because wood is higher in price and labour is higher.

Putting on a tax of $100 upon Chinese coming into the country, looks as if we
were afraid of the Chinamen running away with our country. I think §100 is plenty
to keeji them out ; I think there is a duty of .|2..50 a thousand from the United States.
Bricks from Seattle cost six cents apiece. If I did not get the Chines'e to work for me I
could not sell. I would be foolish if I did not approve of tariif on bricks. If all were-
treated alike the Chinese would be all right.

Q. According to that then we ought to restrict the immigration of Chinese here in
order to protect white labour ? — A. No, sir ; I am perfectly satisfied with the prices I get.

Q. You are in favour of protection applied to yourself, but not to others ? — A. I do-
not know. I think the [irotection is all right as it is.

William Bull, foreman for the last witness, says : There are four brick yards in
Victoria and vicinity ; fourteen white men are employed and seventy-one Chinese. The
white men are paid from ?2 to $2. .50 a clay ; eight Chinese are paid $2. .50 a day as
moulders; twenty-four are paid $1.60 a day. They carry bricks and put the clay in
the mill and temper it. Thirty-nine are paid .f 1.50 a day ; they wheel in the brick and
put the clay in the car. I have been forty years engaged in brickmaking ; in Montreal
since 1870, and in Vancouver for thirteen years. At the time I came here the China-
men made all the bricks, the same as at [)resent. The white men drove horses and'
carts, &c.

Q. What is the reason white men are not employed ? — A. I asked to employ one
white man who is a good moulder, and the boss told me not to emphiy him ; that it
would not do to break the gang. The Chinese would not work with a white man. It
takes four white men to make a set. That is the excuse the brickmakers give.

Q. Why ? — A. Because they I'eckon the Chinese would not agree with white
moulders. I did not have the privilege of hiring white men as moulders. Any China-
man I did not like I could let him go, but I had to put another Chinaman in his place.
Good white men used to come here ; they would ask for work in the brick yard but
they could not get it. They would walk away again. There are some here, good
practical brickmakers, but they cannot get work. 'White men are as good and steady
as Chinese.

Q. What is the cause of Chinese being employed ? — A. There are a certain number
of Chinese employed at low priced labour. The employers say it is better- to have all
Chinese employed with the moulders, because they work better with each other. The
whites ai'e only employed for driving carts.

Q. What is the effect of the presence of the Chinese here upon the brickmaking
business as far as white men are concei'ned ? — A. Well, white men cannot get employment
and they have gone away.

Q. What has been the effect? — A. The whole of the brickmaking now is in the
hands of the Chinese.

Q. Is there any other point in connection with the trade you think it important to
mention I — A. There is one reason the Chinese are employed in brickmaking. They
work for lower wages ; and in addition to thai:!, for a three-gang yard it takes about
twenty-two Chinese, and they build them little huts in the brick yards and they have no
fuel to buy, whereas a white man has to pay .$12 a month for rent and $4 a month for
fuel. The Chinaman has a hut in the brick yard that he gets free.

Q. I suppose comparatively few of them have families ? — A. None of them have
families here.

Q. Do you think it likely that within a reasonable time they will adopt our hahits
or will they live as a distinct race '? — A. I think they will live as a distinct race. One
intelligent Chinaman told me they liked to live here and make money until they were
about fifty years old, and then go back to live in China ; that all Chinamen wanted to
get back to China, and he told me he was going back.

Q. There has not been much profit in brickmaking recently? — A. Not until last
summer. They have entered into a combination which has raised the price of brick up
to a fair figure.

188 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOS

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Have thev raised the wages ] — A. Oh, no.

A moulder in Ontario \vill command nearly double the wages of an ordinary man.
"Work in this line is not steady all the year around. Chinamen's wages amount to about
836 a month. Their board averages about SS a month. Say the white man gets s50 a
month and pays S20 a month for board : that would leave him 830. Both of them have the
same amount of spare cash, supposing them to be siagle men. A white man earning 850
a month will just ha\e about enough to get along. Rents are high here. In Loudon,
Ontario, I used to rent a house with an acre of land attached for 85 or 86 a month, and
I never paid less than 812 a month here for a small house and small lot.

I fa^■our a head tax to prevent any more coming in. My objection to the Chinese
is because of their interference with white labour here.

Q. Suppt)sing there were no Chinese here, would there be any dilKcultv in getting
white moulders at the same price ? — A. No, sir ; we got them in Winnipeg at the time
■of the boom. This is a better climate than Winnipeg.

Q. Could this industry exist if there were no Chinese m this country I — A. Yes, it
exists in other parts. Thei-e have been too many competing in the brickmaking trade
here.

Sam Lum said : I worked in a brick yard carting clay. I get 82 a day. I drive a
horse. I have worked at that fourteen years. I got only 81.50 in winter. I only have
about six months' work in the year : sometimes we get two days in the week, sometimes
none at all. My wife and children are in China, a boy and girl. I have never been
back. I send 830 or 840 home every year. I board myself at the brick yard. I pay
no rent : there is a house in the brick yard, 20 by 30 or 40 feet. At present there are
only three or four living there, but sometimes twenty live there. It costs me 815 or 816
a month to live, 82 for rice. 88 for meat, 89 for beer and whiskey.

Lum Chow, brickmaker, has been in the country twenty years, speaks through an
interjireter. earns 82 a day as a moulder.

Q. What does it cost you to live ( — A. 3Iy meals alone cost me from 814 to 815 a
month beside drink.

Q. How much for drink .' — A. During the summei- when I am working each day it
costs me about 35 or 40 cents a day for drinking, but in the winter of course I do not
have any money to spend on that.

I have ^vorked in a brick yard for fifteen years. Only work four or five months in
the year.

George Gill, briekmakers' foreman and manager, Vancouver, says : I have been in
most of the brick yards on the mainland. At iSTew Westminster some years back, four
or five years ago, there were sixty or seventy Chinamen employed, three white men and
two boys : no Japanese The Chinese work bv contract. At Roches Point, six miles
from Vancouver, twenty-four Chinamen are employed and three white men ; at Port
Hauev, twenty-four Chinamen and four white men ; Westuiinster Road, twenty-three
to twenty-four Chinese and four white men ; at Port iloody, ten years ago there were
twenty-four Chinese and four white men. I heard they employed Japanese last year ;
at Bowen Island, twenty-two to twenty-four Chinese, four white men ; at Kamloops, all
white men, twelve men employed. The labour work is in the hands of the Chinese.
The Chinese also assist in firing. I was foreman iii each of these places, except West-
minster Road, for twelve years since. If I am offered more wages in another place I go.
There are made from ten to twelve million bricks on the island and on the mainland.
Some bricks are imported from the American side and fi-om Manitoba. The season lasts
about six mouths. I don't think they made much money, — too many in the business.
The bi-ick business could be carried on without Chinamen. The Chinese contractors
contract to make bricks at prices at which no white man could touch it.

The contractor is generally a Chinese merchant. The brickyard owner comes to a
Chinese merchant and the merchant contracts with him, and signs an agreement and
becomes responsible for the fulfilment of the contract. He gets a commission on the
supplies to the men. He gets paid in the first place for getting these men together, and
one of the conditions of their employment, is that they deal with him, take all the
.supplies from his stores. I am in a position to prove this. For instance, a case at the

oy cnixEnt: and Japanese imukiuation 1%%

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Westminster road yard, it was found tliat the amount the Chinese contractor had paid
out in wages exceeded the sum he had made under the contract by about 6-'300, and yet
he was well satisfied at the result. For every sack of rice he supplied to the camp" he
charged .^1 more than the retail price of rice in Vancouver. On every pound of pork he
sujipiied he had a profit of about 7 cents a pound. He bought tlie pork in the whole-
sale market at from 10 to 12 cents per pound, and sold it to the camp at 19 cents a
pound, and he sold to those men about 200 pounds of pork every 5 days. He supplied
about 70 sacks during the month, which was equal to a profit to him of from .§60 to $70
per month, and every week he cleared a profit of .§20 on pork. He supplied tobacco,
opium and intoxicating liquors imported from China, and he did not pay a license for
selling it. He allowed gambling in the camp and charged each man 10 cents per month
for the privilege of gambling. I do not know exactly what his profit was on the liquor
and the opium and the gambling, but he expi-essed himself to me as satisfied, although
on the face o£ it he had lost ij.'UJO on the ccmtract. I may say that he bought a wife at
the close of the season, a Chinese girl in Victoria, and paid §.500 for her.

At Port Haney, year before last, 1899, there were several contractors. A merchant
here became responsible for the contract. The same thing was carried on, gambling,,
drinking, and one of the contractors bought a female slav^e for immoral purposes.

There were hundreds who came (white men) seeking employment and were refused.
I told them there was no show. They would want §2 a day perhaps. If white men
were employed exclusively in the brickyards, it would cost $1 a thousand more to pro-
duce them.

Abel Wemkem, a German, briekmaker, Vancouver, said : I employed last summer
4.3 men in the yard ; 39 Japanese, four or five white men ; no Chinese. I started in
with white men. I changed in the fall to Chinamen. Next year I had machines and
all white men. I could not compete against other brickyards. I paid white men fi-om
§2. .50 to §.3 a daj'. I would prefer to emplo}' white men if other yards did. Under
present circumstances I would say exclusion, both as to Chinese and Japanese. The
labour is cheap. Someone makes a good deal, and then too many go into it. The
business is bad. The town would be more prosperous if all were white. It would cost
§1 per thousand more. If all were white men here, we woukl have more on the farms
and it would lessen the cost of living. Where I have been cheap labour meant poor
wages and poor times.

SUMMARY.

Chinese are now exclusively employed on the coast in brickmaking, the white men
having been gradually driven out. The foremen and teamsters are whites. At Kam-
loops only whites are employed.

The work is chiefly done through Chinese contractors, who pay the men and supply
them with provisions. Wages range from $9 to $15 a week. The white foreman is
paid $2.50 a day the year round. The following shows the relative numbers that have
been employed in different yards at the time the witness was acquainted with them,
within the last few years :

Place. ^Vhites. Chinese.

Victoria l-t 71

New Westminster 5 60

Roches Point 3 24

Port Haney 4 22-24

Westminster Road ! . 4 23-34

Port Moody 4 24

Bowen Island 4 22-24

Kamloops 12 ' 0

The Chinese usually live in shacks on the brickyard furnished by the employer free,
living together after their usual fashion, under conditions that are degrading, where

190 REPORT OF SOTAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

white men could not decently live ; and at a cost that would not support a white man
even without a family. The work lasts about six months in the year.

Two foremen who had had a verj- long experience and commended themselves to us
as entirely credible witnesses, declared that there were enough white men to do the
work, but the}' were no longer employed, and wliite men making application for work
were constantly refused. One foreman put it hundreds apply and are turned awav.

We desire to make it clear why this is so, and to explain the fact wliv the white
man cannot compete with a Chinaman. The reason is that the work is done through
Chinese contractors or bosses who engage only Chinamen. The Chinamen work in
gangs and a gang would not work as well if composed partly of wliites and partly of
Chinamen. The Chinaman does not want the white man, and the white man would
almost rather starve than work in a gang of Chinamen. This, coupled with the fact
that thev work for less and hire in a manner which a white man will not and ought not
to accept as his standard of living, fully accounts for the fact why, where they have
once obtained a footing, they stay.

A further reason may be found in the statement of a foreman of many years'
experience, — that the Chinese contractor -svill take a contract for making brick at so
much per thousand, at a price in which there is no profit, even by employing Chinese
labour : that he makes his profits on his supplies, which are said to be sold to the
Chinese workmen at extravagant figures ; that in one case, where at the end of the
season there was an apparent loss of 8300 on the contract, the contractor expressed
himself as well satisfied having regard to his profits made on the supplies.

To hope that the white man will be able to compete and to finally drive them out
■of these emplovments where thev haxe once obtained a footing, is the sheerest nonsense.
The only cases where they have given place to others is where the Japanese have Ijeen
able to outbid them.

One of the most successful employers in this business is in favour of no restriction
upon labour. He approves of a duty on brick. The foremen engaged in the business
are in favour of exclusion.

IV. LIME-BURNING.

This work is largely done by the Chinese. In one lune kiln near Victoria the fore-
man stated that nine men are employed, seven of whom are Chinese. The wages paid
to Chinese are from SI. 00 Uj •SI. 25 jier day. "White men receive 84.5 to 850 per month.

John S. Annet, foreman at Raymond it Sons' lime kiln at Esquimalt, says :
There are six or seven Chinese and two white men engaged at this lime kiln. The
wages for Chinese are from 81.10 to -81.25 a day. I am paid 850 a month, and my
assistant I believe -S-to a month. The Saanich Company closed down in April 1894,
because they could not compete with the other lime kilns where Chinese were employed.
1 do not know how many are employed at Texada Island. Where I am the white man
is not employed steadUy. For instance, I was discharged last September and the Chinese
were kept on. All last season and a part of the season before, Chinese were employed
as teamsters. Xow it is considered necessary to have a white man to overlook the opera-
tions of the Chinese. They have nearly a monopoly of all business here in labour.
There are only two lime kilns in operation at the present time that I am acquainted
with. The proportion is two white men to eight Chinese. The general work is done by
the Chinese. I ha%-e been working there four years. Pre%ious to that all Chinese were
employed. There is no such thing as Sunday observance by the Chinese. The Chinese
would be very much put out if he hadn't a chance to work on Sunday.

V. FRUIT CANNING.

Fruit canning has reached but small proportions as yet in British Columbia.

Walter Taylor, of Vancouver, manager of the British Columbia Canning Company,
says : We employ from twenty to thirty hands, men, women, girls and boys, for three
months in the year, if the fruit crop is a good one. We employ no Chinese or Japanese.

UN CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIORA TION 191

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

We sometimes find difficulty in getting sufficient numbers, for our work, of girls and
women. We pay boys from $25 to .$35 a month ; for men $60 a month up. They board
themselves at that ; and women and girls from 75 cents tf> $1 a day. These wages are
paid for such work as requires a little training. It is nine years since I employed
Chinese. I employed Chinese for a couple of months one j'ear during the fruit season.
I would not have emiilnyed them, only I could not get anyone else ; at least, I could not
get encjugh of \vhite labour to keep up the work. Since that I have been able to get
all the white labour I wanted, until last year, when I had to get in a few Japanese for
a few days. I employed five Japanese at $1 a day.

Q. Did you find any advantage in the employment of Japanese over white labour?
— A. No, I would sooner have tlie white labour than the Japanese.

Q. Why did you employ Japanese ; was it because their labour was cheaper 1 —
A. It was not any saving in the way of wages at all. It was the same to me for the
time being, and the circumstances were such that I could not help myself. I onlv had
these Japanese on the place for two days and a half. As soon as I got through with
the little rush I sent them ofi". I have resided on the coast eleven years. I came from
Ontario.

I think we have too manj' Chinese and Japanese here now. We have certainly
got enough to supply all our present wants. I do not think we are at all prepared to
do without the Chinese at once in this country. I do not think we could get along with-
out them if they went away now, for a time anyhow. I think with the number we have
here now the laliour market would be supplied for years. I am in favour of further re-
stricti(.)n on Chinese ; -SlOO is no good ; I think they will come in as freely under .$ 100
as $50. I think it ought to be higher than that.

There are two classes of industry in every country. Where industries employ
labour all the year round they can manage to get their labour and keep it ; at least it
should be so. But take the canning business, where it only lasts for three months of
the year, you cannot import labour for the purpose ; men cannot come here and live upon
what they earn in three months' work. I would not like to see de^'elopment impeded ;
I would sooner see the Chinaman come in than that. Develop by white people if
possible but if that be not possible I want to see it developed by whatever labour you
can get.

VI. SUGAR REFINING.

It was stated by some of the witnesses that if Chinese were not employed there
would be a great difficulty in obtaining sufficient unskilled labour, but Mr. Benjamin F.
Rogers, manager of the sugar refinery at Vancouver, has not found it so. He stated
that he had resided eleven years in Vancouver, and during that time the company had
not employed any Chinese or Japanese labour. They employ from seventy to one
hundred men, and of these 97 per cent is unskilled labour. Lowest wage paid is 20
cents per hour. In their contract with the city the company agreed not to employ
Chinese labour. This does not apply to the Japanese, but still they did not employ
Japanese labour. He stated that the company had no difficulty in getting unskilled
labour, and no difficulty in keeping up the supply ; sometimes there was a difficulty in
getting laboui' for loading and unli^adiug vessels.

This witness further said : The wages I jiay are a little higher than the current
wages. I never take back a man that leaves me if he is the last man on earth, so they
generally stay with me.

The city gave me a free site and exemption from taxation for fifteen years, and
free water for a certain period of time.

I only know of once or twice of an over-supply of labour in this province. For a
long time I have never seen an over-supply of white labour, but I have always been able
to get all the labour I wished for.

Because of the over-supply of labour in 1889 there were hard times. That was
local. Last winter the over-supply was of common labour.

192 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902 '

I would rather employ a white man with a family than a man without a family.
The Japanese I think do the work quite as well, though. To my mind it would not be
a kindness to take a man on and perhaps he would move his family liere and after a
short time shut him out. Tlie Japanese are all unmarried men and it does not matter
so much to them.

We get our sugar material from Cuba, Ja\-a, Queensland, South America, Xorth
America, Mauritius, Haj-ti, and other places. Our strongest competitors are on one
.side in China and on the other side in Montreal. There is a duty on refined sugar and
raw sugar according to its polarization. I get my raw sugar from China. I ship sugar
as far east as Manitoba. I can compete with Montreal.

We export no sugar. There is no sugar imported from China. In the use of
sugar the Indians come first, tlie white people come next, and I should say the Chinese
and Japanese use something like two-thirtls of the other.

VII CORDWOOD CUTTING.

James Edward Painter, a wood dealer in Victoria, indicates the present method of
cutting cordwood : I go to a Chinese contractor to get say two thousand cords at 75
cents, for large timber, and 85 cents for small. He has seven Chinamen. He gives
them the full jjrice and makes his profits out of the provisions which he sujiplies them.
I reckon they can put up one and a half cords per day, and make something like 81.20
a day. There are seven or eight wood-dealers in Victoria. All employ Chinese but one
who employs Japanese to cut the cordwood. I do not think we could get white men.
There was only one case of a white man coming to me and asking to cut timber. I
never advertised for white men. They knew the job was open. I would perfer wliite
men if they stayed at it.

About half the wood is sold to white people and half to Chinese. I think a §100
tax is sufficient to keep the inferior labour of Chinese out. I think they are a benefit in
opening up new industries ; benefit to the canneries, coal mines, and in getting out cord-
wood. There are 20,000 cords of wood used in the city in a year, cut principally by
Chinese.

With white men the price would have to be increased to S3.50 a cord for 4-ft. wnod
to get it out. It would have to be done by cheap labour because a ton of coal will go
as cheap as two cords of wood, and a ton of coal costs 8G.50. Some people prefer wood
to coal. In 1881 I was firing on a Grand Trunk wood train. They employed coloured
men at from 90 cents to $1 a day. In all countries they have to have cheap labour.
I sell cordwood now for §3.50.

John Murray, Provincial Timber Agent, Vancouver, said : I think most of the
wood on the lower mainland, or at least a great portion of it, is cut by Chinese and
Japanese. The wood business is mostly done by Chinese, and the shingle bolt business
is mostly done by Japanese. Getting out cordwood and shingle bolts is all by contract.
You will find a great many white people in and around the city of Vancouver who are
willing to work but cannot get work, because of the presence of Chinese and Japanese,
who are filling positions that would be better filled by white people, citizens of the
country.

Senator Reid, of Quesnell, in the course of his evidence stated that he employed
about ten Chinese in cutting cordwood, finding them more satisfactory than whites in
fulfilling their contracts.

Note — In recent years at all events the Japanese have largely superseded the
Chinese in wood cutting.

How Chinese and Japanese cordwood cutters affect the farmers has been dealt with
under land clearing and agriculture.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 193

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

VIII — RAILWAYS.

The Nanaimo and Esquimalt Railway Company employ from one hundred and fifty
to two hundred white men, and from forty to sixty Chinese on their railway. The
Chinese are employed as section men and on other work, such as grading roads, clearing
^ right-of-way and quarrying stone. They are paid )J1 a day.

Joseph Hunter, the manager of the road, said : We find them fairly good servants
— depends on the character of the work. Where soft excavation, where no picking and
no roots, they are fairly good. I would like to say, in this work, equal to a white man.
For the heavier work a Chinaman does not compare with the white man. I have known
Chinese drill strikers in rock work — first-class strikers, equal to anyone — but this is rare.
They cannot be compared to wliite labour, man for man. They lack strength and
ingenuity of grappling with difficulties. The white labourer is paid from $2, $2.2.5 and
.$2.50 per day. The Chinese are mostly section men. The exclusion of Chinese would not
aiFect the railways. If you were to exclude them all to-morrow you will be able to get
a railway trip to Nanaimo as well as you can to-day.

I hardly like to express any opinion as to restriction. I suppose further restriction
would diminish the inilux of Chinese, and I have not taken any sides on the question.
I should like to see white labour become prominent. I think the country would be
better without Chinese, if it were possible to do without them. There does not seem to
be much scarcity of Chinese at present. I think the exclusion of Chinese would tend to
raise wages. I do not think any increased restriction or prohibition would materially
affect the various trades and callings here, or commercial interests ; that is providing
those who are here are allowed to remain. It might tend to raise wages, but we could
stand that. We have got a good country here. If I were a labourer I would prefer to
go to a country where thei'e are no Cliinese. There may be compensating ad^'antages
to some corporations requiring construction work. The tendencj^ is to prevent white
labour coming in. If no more of the labouring Chinese were allowed to come in naturally
that would increase the number of white men coming here. There is no tendency of the
Chinese endeavouring to reach our standard or mode of living. They are conservative
and wedded to their own manners and customs.

Looking at it aside from any particular interest, I do not think it in the interest of
any particular country that that class of people should be allowed to come here. I think
the reasons are very plain. They are a very undesirable class in many ways. They are
behind even the lower class of white labour. They come into competition with white
labour in lines where it is not desirable they should come into competition with them.

I would think it a menace to the country if it were found as a fact, that a race such
as the Chinese was gradually encroaching on the various avocations, trades and callings
that go to make up the foundation of the community. I have already said the country
would be better without the Chinese, if the conditions were such tliat we could get along
without them ; but I am not prepared to say that the conditions at present are such. I
have already given my opinion and I repeat it ; I believe this would be a better country
without them. I do not want to moralize too much on that point. If we could get
along without them the country would be better off I believe. Whether we could do so
or not I am not prepared to say.

Q. Has the standard of wages for white men in the country been maintained by
reason of the Chinese doing the menial work ? — A. Well, I do not think that has very
much effect on the wages of white people.

Richard Marpole, Vancouver, the general superintendent of the Pacific division of the
Canadian Pacific Railway, stated : That of 4,693, the total number employed on thisdivision,
99 are Cliinese, 70 Japanese, and the rest white. Last year, however, over 300 Japanese
were emploj'ed for a short period on construction of snow sheds in the mountains ; 19
Chinese are employed in Vancouver and New Westminster in coopering and on the
wharf. They work in connection with the steamship line. In the local offices there
are two. At New Westminster there are five employed around the freight house from
54—13

194 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

time to time. In the shops here (Vancouver) there is a standing, gang of twehe who
act as cleaners. That is the total number of Chinese we have here, — nineteen in all I
think.

There are two gangs of forty men each engaged in extra work, shovelling snow and
anything else required to be done in the mountains. I think the gangs are equal, but
one gang may have fifty men in it. There are eighty altogether. Then we have thirty
Chinese on the section. The section bosses are white men.

The average pay is §1 and 81.10 for Chinese and Japanese section men. The wages
of the white man is 61.25 to $1.50 a day. That depends on the locality. The Kootenay
represents about one-third of the mileage, and the employees are about in the same pro-
portion with the exception that there are no oriental labourers south of Revelstoke.
The major portion of the aliens in this province were employed by Mr. Onderdonk
during the construction of the railway. He employed Chinese almost exclusively on the
work of construction for the Canadian Pacific Railway. When the line was taken over
we found a great many Chinese employed on the road, particularly between here and
Revelstoke. Roughly speaking it would be in 1886. At the time we opened the road
about six hundred Chinamen were employed between here and Revelstoke. That was
in the spring of 1886. They wei-e gradually changed to what you see now, as white men
could be secured. The reason of the change from Chinamen to white men is, white
labour is superior to Chinese labour, because of the strength and efficiency of a white
man in work which the Chinese is not adapted for. I would prefer white men on the
line every time if you can get them. If handled by white foremen I do not think it
matters much as to safety. The cost to the company is ultimately about the same. That
is to say, we employ more Chinamen in the section than we employ white men for the
same distance. The section foremen generally remain from year to year, and probably
one or two of the men in each gang remain with them. All the section foremen have
permanent homes. The number of men under the section foremen vai'ies from two to
eight, according to the location. I do not think more than one in each gang would be
married. The married element, except the foremen, is a scarce element in British
Columbia. They are all transients mostly. This side of Kamloops we have a number
of Indian labtiurers. They may be considered married as they have the concomitant.
The foremen are married. They live in houses provided by the company. The section
foreman hires the men and he arranges for their board. Some of them batch, but
generally the section foremen boards them himself. That is a matter entirely within
the men's own control.

The result is, as far as the Chinese are concerned, they have gradually been eliminated
from the time we took over the road, from a desire to have white men and because white
men were more plentiful in 1886 and 1887 and the spring of 1888, because we brought
thousands of men here to assist in the construction of snow-sheds.

I have been here twenty yeais in August. Previous to that I had charge of the
Lake Superior section, and I brought most of the old gangs of men with me. That is
one reason why the gangs here are mostly white. I brought nearly all the old foremen
with me. "We had plenty of white men immediately after the construction of the snow-
.sheds, in which between three and four thousand were engaged.

We had no Japanese until last year. Last year is the first year we employed thsm
in any numbers. The summer before last is the first year we employed any number of
Japanese. The occasion of that was the scarcity of white labour. The greatest number
of Japanese we employed last year on the snow-sheds was three thousand altogether. We
engaged them in the spring, May or June. They were sent to the work from time to
time as required. They would only be sent when we could not get other labour. We
attempted to get men from the east, from Ottawa, through an agent there. We
secured quite a large number. The most of them went on to Mr. Mackenzie's road at
Rainy River at our expense. I never call Italians white labour. They get from $1.40 a
day and upwards. The Italians are not equal to Canadians, white men, when you can get
them. The Japanese labour in my opinion is fully equal to the Italian, and in some
cases superior to any of the labour that comes along here, that you may call Canadian
labour. At some kinds of work they are as good as whites, because the white labour

OS CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 196

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

that comes here is generally of a roving disposition. White labourers as a i-ule stay
with us until they get something better. It is a question of wages and locality. They
are not regular labourers. On many of the sections the men have to live away from
civilization, and that has a good deal to do with it. The white man also has a desire to
spend liis money in some town.

Q. I suppose higher wages are paid to better men ; that better men cost more
money ? — A. It would have to Be so high we could not afford to pay it. Wages are
paid for work done, and if higher wages had to be paid it would be impossible for any
operating men to work.

Q. Your rates would provide for that ? — A. I do not know they would. We
reduced our rates the other day twenty per cent. The freight just now is hauled at
very low rates, especially to Skagway and other places.

The expert labour is paid higher on this di\-isi()n than any railway to the south of
us. That is a broad statement to make. Railways on the south are employing from
5,000 to 6,000 Japanese. We are only employing 70. That is not generally known in
Canada, but it is so. This company is not interested in emploj-ing a single oriental
apart from where we cannot get white labour. We prefer white labour' if we can get
white labour that will stay with us. That is our difficulty. I may say we are bound to
depend a good deal on Chinese and Japanese and Indians for section work. The Indians
number about 100. We experience some difficulty with them in the fishing season.
They leave us for a time to go fishing. I think highly of the Indians as workmen on
the sections.

When I speak of snow-shed work done by the Japanese I mean pick and shovel
work. They are not engaged in carpenter work or any work of that kind.

I do not care to express any opinion as to whether Chinese immigration should be
restricted or not ; nor as to the Japanese.

There is certain work connected with the railway where very light men can do as
much as hea'sy men, but when it comes to hea\-y work I should say two white men
would do as much in a day as three Chinese or Japanese, but a great portion of the
work on the railway a Japanese can do as well as a white man. A white man on an
average would be worth 25 cents a day more on section work.

We have been trying to induce white labour to come here, and we have imported
3,000 men in the last eight years, and I guarantee there is not 10 per cent of them in
the country to-day.

The construction of the Columbia and Western was all done by white labour at
high rates. It is a pretty broad question as to what proportion employed in the con-
struction work settle down, take farms or settle in the neighbourhood of the railway.
I do not believe that over one per cent of the white labour settled in the Kootenay
section. Those men generally follow the railway contractors to other work of a similar
kind. They go with the contractors and foremen. The same thing applies to all roads.

The Chinese are on the decrease ; the Japanese perhaps are stationary, but if I can
get white labour I will take all I can get.

Q. You mean to tell me the Canadian Pacific Railway cannot be operated by white
labour? — A. This di\'ision cannot be.

Q. On the road in the east you employ- white labour ? — A. Yes, we can get all we
want in Montreal and east.

Q. Pro\"ided you are able to pay better wages ? — A. If we are compelled to pay
higher wages than the roads to the south of us we cannot run it. W^e have to employ
some of that class of labour.

If the road depended upon the local traffic between Lagganand Vancouver it could not
be operated to-day. I do not suppose a white man with a family could live on what we are
paying Japanese. We are not encouraging white men with families to come here, because
we have not got accommodation for them. Unless a white man comes along with the
object of becoming a section foreman you cannot get white men for railway work here.
If you were to pay very much higher you would still have to depend on transient labour
on the remote sections of the road. Italians and Scandinavians are plentiful, but you
cannot go to the east and pick up Canadian labour. I can assure you we ha^e done a
54— 1.3i

196

rSport of royal commissiox

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

good deal to get white labour, and we have been unable to secure white labour that will
stay with us on the remote sections of the road.

In the Kootenav section we emplov only white labour, because we can get white
labourers there, men drifting from the hills and from the mines : and there are a great
number of men between here and Laggan that we can call on for assistance.

If the government in their wisdom had brought in white labour years ago it might
have been diiFerent to-day. As a matter of fact these miserable Italians they have
brought out now, they are going out. I think it would be well if we had more good
white labour brought in here. A great many of those who come here are men not
adapted for our work.

To Mr. Casgidy :

Q. Is it possible that the Canadian Pacific Railway could pay higher wages and
recoup itself by taking people from the east here ? — A. Certainly not.

Q. Would it be suitable to the country ; would that meet with general favour ? —
A. I do not think it is possible to raise the rate of wages in any industry in this pro-
vince to-day. It would be a most impolitic thing to do.

Q. Do you think it would be advantageous to Canada, or the reverse, that your
road should pursue a policy of that kind ! — A. Certainly not.

EXHIBIT 47.

Approximate statement of white men employed during the year 1900 in British
Columbia on the Canadian Pacific Railway Company.

Trainmen

Enginemen

Mechanical department

Xumber of
Men.

Average Rates Earned.

Section foremen.

Watchmen

Sectionmen

Extra gangs

Bridgemen (including foremen) .

Station agents, operators and clerks.

General office clerks

Officials

C. & K. steamer employees

Porters and checkers .

260
2o0
570

150

944

1,260

326

298
90
20

341

120

Conductors, •*125 per month.
Brakesmen, S90 „

Engineers, S150 „

Firemen, .?90 „

Foreman, S125 ■.

Leading hands, S3. 50 per day.
Fitters, S3
Turners, fi3

Boilermakers, -SS t.

Painters, S2 . .50 and S3 ,.
Carpenters, S2.50 *<

Car repairers, SI. 70 „

S55 to S60 per month.
Yard foremen, .^70 per month.
At S-tO to S4o per month.
At SI . 25 to SI . .50 per day.
JForemen, S2.50 to $3.50 per day.
Men, SI . 40 to SI - 75 per day.
Foremen, S3 to S3. 50 per day.
Men, S2 to S2 . 50 per day (average S2 . 25 p. day).
I Inspectors, 'S125 per month.
§55 to S125 per month.
'.?20 to S90 per month (average about S60).

Masters, SIO" to S125 per month.
Engineers, S90 per month.
Deckhands, S35 per month and board.
20c. to 25c. per hour.
Cooks, S60 per month.

Total

4,693

W. S. Newman, Bevelstoke, roadmaster on the C. P. R. from Re\elstoke to Donald,
and on the Aitow Head Branch, a total length of 108 miles, said : At the present time

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 197

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

I have sixty-seven whites, eight Japanese, no Chinese, on the section. In the winter
time I have four Japanese and the rest are whites on section work. That was last winter,
and some of the whites were worse than the Japanese. We have 17-5 extra men just
now ; thirty-two of them are Chinese and twenty-eight Japanese. The Chinese get $1
a day, the Japane.se, Sl.lO. WHiite section men get .SI. 2.5. The extra gang of whites
get |l.40 and board and .?1.60, according to the class of labour they are put at. The
whites are made up of Italians, Hungarians, Polanders, Swedes and some Finlanders.
We have about twelve foremen. They are English, Irish and Scotch. The same propor-
tion of Chinese and Japanese are on the section from Rovelstoke to Kamloops. There
are more Finns there. No other Chinese or Japanese are employed hj the C. P. R. in
this district that I know of. If we cannot get white men when we want them, we have
to get Chinese and Japanese to make up the gangs required. Last summer was the first
time I used Chinese and Japanese on section work. In winter time the force is cut
down, and I keep all the white labour on. In the summer when we go to make up
the gangs for extra work we have to employ Japanese. The summer before last Chinese
were employed in shed-building. I have had Chinese here fifteen years working on extra
work. The Hungarians and Italians that are here I do not call really white men. They
are a very poor class of workmen generally. Swedes and Finlanders are about as good
as the Britishers we get here. They are not as difficult to keep here as British people
at the wages paid. It will take five Chinese and Japanese anyway to do the work of
three Britishers. Some Italians ha\e brought their families here and are making fairly
good settlers. The Swedes settle, especially the section foremen. If Britishers were
paid the same rate of wages as is paid for other work here, I think they would settle
down and work here. Wages equal to the pay of skilled white labour, that would be
from 81.75 U^ .$2.50 a day. The company furnishes the married men with houses. The
class of single men we have won't live in a boarding house, and do their own cooking.
They won't pay the high charge of boarding house keepers. That charge would be $4.25
a week. We have three boarding houses with Chinese cooks. They are paid S30 a
month and board. I have tried white men as cooks, and as a general thing when we
wanted them they were drunk. They were getting $50 a month. That was during the
time of construction. I have tried to get them since, but they won't stop here. I favour
the exclusion of Chinese and Japanese. I favour the immigration of white men. Men
employed by the company are free to state their opinions. This is a pretty difficult
di^dsion to work on account of the snow-slides. Hungarians and Italians are not in
favour with the British labourer here. They come here and earn money and send it
home, instead of spending it in the country, that is about the only reason. Not more
than one in one hundred of the Italians that come here to work on the railway take out
citizen papers. The Japanese draw their money the same as any other man, indivi-
dually ; they all do but the Chinese, and they are paid in Vancouver to the Chinese
company. The company furnish them with provisions, and the amount is deducted
from their wages.

SUMMARY,

There are 4,69.3 men employed on the Pacific division of the Canadian Pacific Rail
way, of whom only 99 are Chinese, 70 Japanese, and 4,524 whites, including 341 inland
steamer employees. The superintendent of this di\'ision stated that the Chinese have
been gradually eUminated. It will thus be seen that on the Canadi;in Pacific Railway
the Chinese represent only about two per cent of the total number of men employed.

From 150 to 200 white men are employed on the Nanaimo and Esquimalt Railway,
and from 40 to 60 Chinese. The general manager of this road stated that there was no
scarcity of Chinese.

Your Commissioners think it clear that having regard to the small number of
Chinese employed on the railways, it cannot be said that thej' are to any considerable
extent dependent upon this class of labour for their successful operation, but in any case
the supply is ample.

198 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

IX. — THE CANADIAN PACIFIC STEAMSHIP COMPANY.

J. H. Watson, boiler-maker by trade, now customs officer at Vancouvei', stated that
he had worked on the steamships, and spoke from personal knowledge. He said : It
is not only in Canada that we have to compete. We have a line of steamers here draw-
ing a large subsidy from the Dominion Government, which gets all the repairs done in
Hong Kong, and these boats bring this Mongolian labour into British Columbia to
compete against white workers here. If they got the repairs done here it would mean
an increase of one hundred mechanics at least in this city. It would mean twelve more
men of my own trade at $3 a day — $864 per month.

18 mechanics at $3 a day §1,296 per month.

6 shipwriglits at $4 a day .... 576 h

6 caulkers at $4 a day 576 h

2 coppersmiths at 84 a day 192 ti

6 blacksmiths at $3 a day 432 .,

25 painters at S3 a day 1,800 .,

25 riggers and specialists 1,800 n

$7,536

This does not include Chinese firemen or coal passers, mess boys and greasers. Add
all these and it would mean from 811,000 to $12,000 a month, which is now spent in
Hong Kong. I worked on the boat and know it. I have seen as many as five or six
hundred Chinese employed. A boilermaker in Hong Kong gets 50 cents a day. One
white man would do the work of three or four of these Chinamen. The Australian
boats employ nothing but white help. It is done at Sydney. They look out to cai-ry
their work to their own port.

The Canadian Pacific Railway engage their men by contractors, as they do here,
and he rakes so much off. The Australians get their repairs in their own port. The
Americans get their repairs there (Hong Kong), but they have no subsidy.

Jin Kanga said : I worked on the Empress of China. I joined in 1894. Just one
Japanese besides me on the sliip. Chinese do the bedroom work and tlie saloon work.
There is one white cook and one Chinese cook.

Richard Marpole, general superintendent of the Pacific Division of tlie Canadian
Pacific Railway, stated that he could give uo information relating to the steamship
company.

Q. Can you speak of the extent of the trade that exists at present in Canada and
China and Japan ? — A. No, I can not.

Q. Can you speak of its possibilities 1 — A. The possibilities are immense. Take
our steamer service and to-day we have two extra steamers in commission. The trade
is so increasing that it will necessitate an increase of the number of our ships, which I
hope to see shortly. The fact that Mr. Hill, of the Great Northern, is going to put on
much larger steamers as freight carriers is aax answer to that question.

Q. Is the traffic reciprocal ? — A. I think so to a great extent. I am taking it as a
whole, Japanese and Chinese. I have no means of separating it.

Q. Would you care to say whether you think a restriction of the immigration of
Chinese and Japanese to our shores would interfere with the traffic to China and
Japan ? — A. Well, I wovild fancy it would. That is my own opinion, not an official one.

The above evidence of .J. H. Watson having been submitted to the Canadian
Pacific Steamship Company, they furnished the following statements under oath : —

Arthur Piers, of the city of Montreal, the general superintendent of the steamships
of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company, states that the number of Chinese employed
on the company's fleet of steamships running between Vancouver and Hong Kong,
namely, the Umprens of India, the Empress of Japan, the Empress of China, Tartar and
the Athenian, is about the number of 570. That I do not know how many Chinese are

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 199

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

employed on repairs to the said fleet in Hong Kong, or the wages paid per day for the
diflerent classes of mechanics, or the total per year, because the Chinese employed there
on repairs to the company's fleet are not employed by the company, the said repairs
being done for the company by the Hong Kong and Whampoa Dock Company, and
other contractors.

The Chinese servants are employed by the company on tlie said fleet, because
reliable, e.xpeiienced and qualitied Europeans could not be kept available in suificient
number for a first-class passenger service ; and furthermore, ten years' experience has
shown tliat the Chinaman is the very best ship servant in the world.

The Chinese firemen and trimmers are employed by the company on said fleet,
because first, steady experienced and reliable European firemen and trimmers could not
be kept a\ailable in suflicient number ; and second, if they were available they could
not stand the high temperature in which our men have to work on the China and Japan
coast, in the stoke holes and engine room.

Robert Kerr, of the city of Montreal, Passenger Traffic Manager of the Canadian
Pacific Kailway Company, states :

1. That I have caused an examination to be made of copies of the manifests of the
Company's steamers running between Vancouver and Chinese and Japanese ports since
the year 1891 (inclusive) to September 30, 1901, to ascertain the number of Chinese
and Japanese emigrants landed in British Columbia by the Companv's steamers in each
year fiuring that period and find as follows :

2. That during the year 1891, the year 1892 from January 1 to April 19 and the
years 189."), 1896 and 1897, no separate record was kept of those Chinese landed in
British Columbia b}' the Companv's steamers who had previously lived in Canada and
were then returning to Canada :■

3. That during the respective periods mentioned in paragraph two there were landed
in British Columbia, the following number of Chinese :

1891 2,232

1892 (To April, 19) 1,1.50

189.5 1,603

1896 1,854

1897 1,793

Total 8,632

4. That during the following periods, namelv, the year 1892, from April 20 to De-
cember 31, the years, 1893, 1894, 1898, 1899, 1900 and the year 1901 from January 1,
to September 30, there were landed in British Columbia by the Company's steamers the
following numbers of Chinese, who, on being landed, paid the duty or tax imposed by
Statute and also those who were returning to Canada and had the statutory certificate
for that purpose, that is to say ; —

1892 Apl. 20 to Dec. 31

1893 1,366

1894

1898

1899

1900

1901 to Sept. 30

Total 9,414 3,774

Paid tax.

Held certificate.

961

1,036

1,366

135

1,086

197

1,705

546

1,-583

713

1,600

635

1,113

512

200 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

5. Tliat the rate per capita from Hong Kong or Shanghai to Vancouver or Vic-
toria, has been, since 1891, as foOows :

1891 8 60

1892 to Apl. 19 65

1892 Apl. 20, to Dec. 31 • 75

1893 90

1894 to 1897 105

1898 to 1901 110

6. That no record was kept of the Japanese landed in British Columbia by the
Company's steamships prior to the mouth of May, 1893. Since May, 1893 there have
been landed in British Coliunbia by the Company the following numbers of Japanese : —

1893 May to Dec 294

1894.. . ." 382

1895 225

1896 298

1897 11

1898 819

1899 1,084

1900 214

1901 to Sept. 30 22

Total 3,349

7. That the rate per capita from Yokohama to Vancouver or Victoria since 1893
has been as follows : the year 1893, 845 : since 1893, 850.

8. Since 1891 the Company has taken out of Canada by ships leaving Vancouver
the following numbers of Chinese and Japanese :

Chinese. Japanese.

1891 605

1892 579

1893 658 42

1894 534 53

1895 775 156

1896 637 74

1897 755 119

1898 891 99

1899 1,200 150

1900 • 1,027 133

1901 505 123

Total 8,166 949

9. That the rate from Vancouver to Hong Kong or Shanghai has been $51 since
1891 and from Vancouver to Yokohama has been since 1893 851.

Mr. Piers, the general superintendent, states in reference to the Chinese poll tax :
This tax is collected from the Chinese at Hong Kong when they are purchasing their
tickets, and we pay over the amount to the Customs Department at Vancouver on ar-
rival of the ship.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 201

SESSIONAL PAPER No 54

The following letter was received b\' the Commission from the President of the
Canadian Pacific Railway Co.: —

January 17, 1902.
D. J. MuNN, Esq.,

Queen's Hotel, Toronto.

Without discussing the Chinese question in the abstract, I think it proper to sub-
mit for the consideration of your Commission, some facts to show the bearing that
legislation against the admission of Chinese to our country may have on this companj^'s
business.

We are, as you know, operating a steamship line on the Pacific Ocean, consisting
of the three Emjiresses and the Tartar and At/ienian, all of which are engaged in
the Chinese and Japanese trade. The advantage to the ports of Victoria and Vancouver
of this steamship line will not, I think, be questioned by anybody, and as the larger
part of the passenger and freight business, to and from the steamers, passes through the
whole length of Canada, involving the expenditure within the country of a considerable
amount for the labour, fuel, &c., required for the movement of trains, everv portion of
Canada is interested to a greater or less extent.

During the year just closed our steamers brought from China 4,107 Chinese pas-
sengers, and took to China 3,069, our total earnings from this source being .§.5.37,000.
Of these Chinese passengers 3,338 were Chinese coming to or going from Canada.

During the same year we brought 32 Japanese to Canada and took out 296.

Our pay roll for oriental labour, on and in connection with the steamships, amounts
to about 850,000 per annum, and, on the railway, to about •?26,000 per annum, a total of
about ■'176,000 a year, or one-seventh of the amount that we receive for the carriage of
Chinese on our steamships. As our total pay-roll amounts to about .$14,000,000 per
annum, you will observe that the percentage paid for oriental labour is scarceh" worthy
of notice.

In addition to the Chinese passenger business, we carried to China, last year, about
1,200 tons of cotton .sheetings, salmon, condensed milk, lumber products, and other
articles of freight, constituting Canadian exports, and, in future, when refineries are
established in the west, we expect to find a market in China and Japan for a consider-
able quantity of lead from the mines of British Ciilumbia.

It is possible, of course, that the Chinese would not resent unfriendlv legislation,
and that the exports from Canada to that eountrv might not be interfered with, but,
even if this were the case, legislation by Canada that would deprive us of the revenue
resulting from the carriage of Chinamen back and forth between this country and their
own would so seriously affect the revenue of our Pacific steamships that we could not
afford to keep them running.

With the advantages enjoyed by the port of 8an Francisco, it was no easj- matter
to establish strong competitive ports on the Pacific coast in British Columbia, and it
would be a most unfortunate thing if any legislation were passed in Canada calculated
to give these ports a serious se^ back.

As the largest employer of labour in Canada, this company asserts most positively,
that there is nothing in existing conditions calling for such unreasonable legislation
against the Chinese as is demanded in some quarters, and that there is nothing on the
horizon to indicate that these conditions are likel)' to be changed in the near future by
reason of the undue importation of Chinese labour.

T. G. SHAUGHNE8SY,

President.

SUMMARY.

There are employed upon the steamships of the Canadian Pacific Piailway running
between Vancouver and Hong Kong .570 Chinese.

There are also employed upon the said steamships in making repairs at Hong Kong
large numbers of Chinese, amounting, it is said, to between five and six hundred. The

202 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

repairs are done tlirimgli a company at Hong Kong who employ Chinese labour. If
these repairs were done in Vancouver it would require at least one hundred mechanics
and an expenditure of about 890,000 a year, exclusive of firemen, coal passers, mess boys
and greasers, which, if added, would amount to from 811,000 to 812,000 a month.

The Australian steamships, according to the evidence, employ exclusively white
labour.

The reasons giving for the employment of Chinese on the fleet are : First, because
reliable, experienced and qualified Europeans could not be kept a\-ailable in sutficient
numbers, and second, that the Cliinaman is the very best ship servant in the world.

The Chinese firemen and trimmers are employed on the fleet because steady, ex-
perienced and reliable European firemen and trimmers could not be kept available in
sufficient numbers, and if they were available they could not stand the high tempera-
ture in which the men have to work on the Chinese and Japanese coasts in the stoke
holes and engine room.

The company's steamers ha,xe brought 21,820 Chinese to British Columbia since
1891 to September 30, 1901. (Tliis number does not include those brought by other
steamships.) Of this number about 6,227 held certificates, lea-s-ing 15,593 as new ar-
rivals by the company's steamers, or an average of about 1,500 a year.

The fare from Shanghai to Vancouver or Victoria has increased from 860 in 1891
to 8110 in 1898, at which it still remains. The return fare from Vancouver to Hong
Kong or Shanghai has been 851 since 1891. Eight thousand one hundred and sixty-six
Chinese have left Canada for China by the company's ships since 1891.

The employment of Chinese upon the steamships of the Canadian Pacific Railway
and for their repairs at Hong Kong raises a question of great interest. The steamship
line, as a part of the Canadian Pacific Railway, is national in its importance. It is but
reasonable that the mechanics and people of British Columbia should desire as far as
possible to reap a portion of the benefits which ought naturally to flow from this enter-
prise.

X. RAILWAY CONSTRUCTION.

Chinese are not employed in railway construction at the present time, and have
not been, with some few unimportant exceptions, since the building of the Canadian
Pacific Railway.

Railway charters granted bv the Legislature of British Columbia in recent yeai's
prohibit the employment of Chinese and Japanese in their construction or operation, a
number of Acts containing a clause attaching a penalty of 85 a day for each and every
Chinese or Japanese person employed in the construction or operation of the under-
taking authorized by the Acts. Contractors much prefer white labour for railway con-
struction.

Richard Marpole, general superintendent of the Canadian Pacific Railway, says :

Q. You have done a great deal of construction work in the Upper Country ? — A.
Yes, that is where we employ white labour to-day.

Q. In the construction of the Columbia and Western ] — A. The work on that is
all done by white labour at high rates.

We are trying to get labour in tlie east for the extraordinary construction work
that we are about entering upon, for which 8500,000 has been set apart.

James Wilson, A'ictoria, says : Two years ago I was up in the Kootenay country
and had a sub-contract, and I never employed a Chinaman if I could get a white man.
We had to send to Chicago, Xew York, St. Paul and other places to get men, and some
of the agencies sent out men here who had never seen a pick and shovel. I could not
get white men at that time in tlie Kootenays and I had to send east for white men.
The ritF raff of the American cities were sent to us. They were of no use. I would rather
have the Chinese. AVhen they got their first pay they would go on the spree and slip
away rather than work. That was on the Robson and Grand Forks Railway. I did
not engage Chinese then. I got Italians and some common men I had before. I could

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 203

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

not see any difference between the Italians and the Chinese. Many of them went out
of tlie country.

6. A. Carlson, Mayor of Ka-lo, said : I am a railroad contractor, resided here six
years. I have a contract for the Lardo extension. We work 1.50 men now. I will
employ about 1,000. I don't intend to employ Chinese or Japanese. I have never done so.

Quite a numbei- of men who wor'k on railroads settle down here. I know 7-5 or 80
wlio came in on the construction work of the Slocau Kaslo R.R. did so. Last year we
paid !?i..")0 a day. This year I don't intend to pay more than $2 a day. That is good
standard wages for railroad work. Board is $.5.2-5 a week. Italians do that class of
work. Others take contracts and clear .ijlo or .$100 a month, or more. White cooks'
pay is !f75 a month, helpers .$40, .$50, and may be if 60 a month. Provisions here are
very high. Boarding men in camps cost 60 or 65 cents a day per man on an average,
we work ten hours a day on railroad work.

I would favour restriction. I don't think the railroad labourers want Chinese or
Japanese here. I can't bring alien labour here. I don't care much about it. I expect
to employ my men in six weeks. At present I can get six or seven hundred unemployed
men from the boundary country. They will work for me at $2 a day. I had experi-
ence as a contractor before I came here, in Minnesota, Virginia, Illinois, Montana and
Washington.

H. S. Rowe, Mayor of Portland, in answer to Chairman Clute, gave tlie following
information :

It will afford me great pleasure to give you all the assistance I can, I will endeavour
in a few words to give you what information I have. Prior to the time the Exclusion
Law was enacted, the condition of the country here was very different from what it is
now, communication with the east was slow, and transportation was high ; there were
no lines of railway across the continent ; here were an isolated community depending
altogether on transportation by sea, which was long and costly ; we had no communica-
tion with the Eastern States of our country, or with your country, except by water.
The only place we had to draw labour from was from China ; it was almost impossible
to secure white labour at any price. But since that time we have had three or four
railways built across the continent ; if we had had to depend altogether on white labour,
none of the large railways could have been built at the time they were stretched across
the continent ; we would have to wait for 3'ears for railway transportation facilities. I
was superintendent of the Oregon Railway and Nax'igation Co. While that railway
was being constructed it was almost impossible to get laboui' ; we had to depend almost
altogether on Chinese labour for the construction of that railway, and for the construc-
tion of the western part of the Northei'n Pacific ; but that was long before the passing
of the Exclusion Act ; it was some years before that.

Q. Alxjut 1886 there first came up an agitation about restriction? — A. Yes, per-
haps a little before 1886 there was an agitation for restriction ; some of the railways had
been completed then ; the Northern Pacific and the Union Pacific had been completed,
and we could readily get people in from the east. We were constructing in two parts ;
-one part was to make connection with the Union Pacific, and another part was to make
connection with the Northern Pacific. At one time we had about 25,000 Chinese em-
ployed on construction work ; we had two contracts, and between those contracts, as I
say, we had about 25,000 Chinese employed on ctmstruction work ; I do not suppose we
had 1,000 white men employed on our contracts. Such was the state of the labour
market here that we were glad to get what labour we could in order to fulfil our
contracts ; but fortunately those conditions have passed away ; we have four railways
running in here now, and we are well able to do without either Chinese or Japanese
abour. This is a white man's country, and we want to keep it a white man's country.
1

XI. ELECTRIC RAILWAY,?.

The British Columbia Electric Railway Company own and operate the electric rail-
ways in Victoria, Vancouver, New Westminster, and between Vancouver and New
Westminster, and employ 380 men, all of whom are whites.

204 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Johannus Buntzen, the general manager, says : We employ in Vancouver from
170 to ISO men ; in New Westminster from 60 to 70, and in Victoria about 140 ; that
would make a total of 370 or 380 men. It varies when there is construction going on.
We have never employed Chinese or Japanese. There is no agreement to tliat effect.
I prefer white men. In the position we are, we could hardlv employ any other labour
but whites. We are entirely dependent on local trade and the pati-onage and sympathy
of the white people. We have no business outside of the cities, and I do not consider
it would be proper to employ any but white labour in our business. I cannot say we
find any difficulty in getting men. I have always found plenty of men at the wages we
pay. I have never had any difficulty in getting a supply. At times we require from
one hundred to two hundred extra.

XII. — FREIGHTING.

Ashcroft, on the Canadian Pacific Railway, is the departure point for Cariboo.
All supplies have to be freighted in a distance of nearly three hundred miles. The
town of Ashcroft contains a population of about four hunrh'ed. of whom seventy-five ai'e
Chinese. There are a great many Chinese firms in Cariboo, and the Chinese freight
almost exclusively for them.

Dennis Murphy, of Ashcroft, M.L.A., says : One of the chief industries of Ashcroft
is teaming. Of late years that has been encroached upon by Chinese. Last summer
three or four horses belonging to Chinese were shot. Since the Union of Teamsters was
foi'med it has checked the number of Chinese, and the feeling is not as bitter as for-
merly. This teaming is into the Cariboo country. The feeling may be as keen, but there
is no animosity as before. The Chinese are not good teamsters, but about one-sixth of
the teams on the road are Chinese teams. There are a great many Cliinese firms in
Cariboo and the Chinese teamsters haul almost exclusively for them. Before the Union
was formed freight was ruinously low. The Chinese run only in the summer, and did
not feed their liorses. They let them feed out and then in winter they would turn them
out. There used to be one hundred teams. There are now sixty or seventy-five. There
is no large freighting outfit. Each owns his own outfit.

Senator Reid says : A great deal of freighting is done from Ashcroft by white
freighters and some Chinese as well. Last year there was about ten per cent of Chinese
freighters. There was some difficulty. The trouble was there were too many freighters.
The whites, it is said, frightened off the Chinese freighters. Horses were shot ; I cannot
say that the wliite freighters shot them.

I think the trouble came up in this way : they have what is called a Teamsters'
Union up there, and one of their rules is that teamsters must load in turn. The Chinese
took their freight for Chinese merchants, whether it was their turn or not, and this
caused trouble. The proportion of Chinese in this business ten years ago was less ; the
Chinese then had only one bull team on the road.

CHAPTER XX.— 1. UNSKILLED LABOUR.

In this chapter reference is had to that large class of labour, skilled and unskilled,
men, women and children, who on coming to the country, or being already here, seek
employment, and find the usual opportunities of securing employment, in the lower
grades of labour, already to a very large extent absorbed by Chinese and Japanese. It
often happens that skilled labourers coming to the country find no opening, and are
willing to avail themselves of any position until an opportunity opens in their own
particular trade or calling. These, together with that large class who have no particular
trade, are debarred from nearly every leading industry in the province, unless they are
willing to compete at wages at which the Chinese and Japanese are employed, and very
often even then they find that the work is done under contract through a Chinese boss

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 205

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

who will not employ white labour ; or the employer, recognizing tlie fact that a white
man will take the earliest opportunity of bettering his position by leaving an employ-
ment where only the Chinese wage is paid, declines to gi\-e him employment.

How far all avenues of unskilled labour are filled by Chinese may be judced from
the following : —

In Victoria' there are 638 Chinese labourers employed and 17.3 unemployed; this
includes all miscellaneous labourers, but does not include cannerymen, mill hands
domestic servants or market gardeners. In the same class in Vancouver there are said
to be 219 employed and 96 unemployed. In New Westminster there are over a hundred
labourers of the same class.

John W. Hay, who has charge of the Salvation Army Shelter in Vancouver says ;
During the year 1900, 800 men sought temporary employment at the shelter, and 400
outside ; part of the 400 may be included in the 800, the majority of the numljer beino-
different individuals, say 600. The.se were all white men. They said they failed to find
employment elsewhere. Since January, 1901, until May, over 200 have sought
employment, from 40 to (iO a month ; 40 out of the 60 would be different individuals.
The majority of them, I think, were respectable men, mechanics and miners, but the
majority labourers. They had sought work and had n(.)t found it. Some of them walked
till their feet were sore. They complain of jNIongolian labour. They complain that
the orientals that are employed in different mills prevent their getting employment.
Not being able to get work, they packed wood for us. There was quite a good deal of
poverty and distress last winter. I think this province finer than Ontario, and if the
white men had a chance they would come here, A case to-daj' occurred where a man
cautioned his friend not to come. I would not like to see my people come here without
they had a substantial place. I don't think there should he any difficulty in "ettino-
white labour.

Robert Pledger, Vancouver, says : I am a Biitish navy pensioner. Have lived in
Vancouver fourteen years. For several years past I have been doing odd jobs about
the city. I formerly, for seven years and a-half, worked as a messenger for the Bank
of Montreal, but I accidentally broke mj' foot and had to leave. In cutting wood the
Chinese are severe competitors. They do most of that in town. I am the only white
man cutting cordwood around Mount Pleasant, and if I did not have my naval pension I
could not live on what I make out of cutting wood. There are quite a few people here
who have difficulty in getting work. I think the Chinese and Japanese are gettin"-
thicker than ever. They are spreading all over. Wherever you go on Mount Pleasant
you meet a Chinaman with a big saw. A white man cannot make a living there. If
you go and ask foi' a job they will tell you the Chinamen will do it for ten cents less. I
do not like this : still the Chinamen are here and they have to live. The shack I live
in I consider small enough, but six Chinamen would live there, and that makes all the
difference.

I think it is the duty of a country to protect its own people, because if a war was to
start up John Chinaman would pick up his blanket ancl get away, and then the mill
owners and others would have to flepend on the white man to whom they refused to give
work to defend tlieir propierty.

I spent the Vjest years of my life in the service of my country. I was engaged in
the operations in Japan in 1864, in the last engagement at Nagasaka the same year. I
never thought then that the Japanese would compete with me here when I was trying
to make an honest living in my old age. I would not advise any of my old ship mates
to come here. I would not stay myself unless I was forced to.

Frank Saxby, of Victoria, who said that he had applied for work at the sawmills
and copper mine, at Chemainus, where Chinese and Japanese were employed, and could
not get it, says : I know there were other workmen in the city looking for work besides
myself. I have met a large number during the winter. I liave met from one hundred
to one hundred and fifty. The.se came under my personal observati(jn. If there had
been a number oi them together at any one time they might ha\-e got work by contract,
and a man is not a capitalist or he would not be going around looking for work, and he
needs work, or he would not look for it. There is no work to be had, unless you are a

206 REPORT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

coal miner and speak a foreign tongue, because it is given up to the Chinese, and if a
white man invades the territory the_y strike ; that is the way they do in tlie work on the
docks ; if a white man goes to worlc in coaling a ship they strike. Mr. Dunsmuir has
promised to give the white men the work when there are enough white men to go
there and do all the work. The Chinese will not work with a white man, therefore they
have got the work. I have been all over the country and I find the Chifiese everywhere.
I do not know of one town I have not been in. I have been in every state on the Pacific
Coast. My birthplace is Canada, but I have spent a good many j-ears in the United
States.

Joseph Harwood, Yernon, says : I have resided here eight years ; for three or
four years I worked on the farms and around town and now I am in the transfer busi-
ness for myself. I have earned my living ever since I have been here by labour each
year. I remember one harvest three years ago that white men were not obtainable, but
for all other years there were more men than were required. The French brothers last
year employed as many as eight Chinese on their farm. Thev' took the place of white
men ; white men previously did the work.

The way it is is this, that a workingman raising a family cannot live here if he has
to compete with the Chinese. I have got four boys and I have got a little home here.
It has been hard work to keejs the little home and family together. On se\"eral small
holdings in the neighbourhood of the town there are four or five men with their families
and they have to work outside to enable them to exist at all, and they can get little
work because of the Chinese and Japanese monopolizing that. In the town here of 700
people there are about 70 Chinese who do work about the houses and gardens and do a
lot of work that ought to be given to white men. The Chinese get all tlie light work
around town. The Chinese have no families ; they have no one else but themselves to
support, and they come into direct competition with white people who have families. If
those Chinese are going to continue to come in here, the whites will have to leave the
place. The whites are going out wherever they get a chance, when they can get some-
thing to do elsewhere. There is no industry here and white people have to depend on
work from the farms, and if that is monopolized by the Chinese what are white people
going to do ? They will simply have to leave the countiy because they cannot make a
living for their families. I should think there are five oi' six hundred farm labourers in
this valley (Okanagon). The seventy or eighty Chinese here now do interfere wth the
labour market and with this district as a whole. If white men with their families were
here on small holdings it would be better for the country and bring a larger area of
land under cultivation and benefit all round. White men come here and find there is
nothing to do and go away. In a good harvest year there are plenty of white men to be
had for the harvest, but as soon as the harvest is over they go out, because there is
nothing for them.

The wood cutting here is done by the Chinese. I have cut wood, but I have had
to do it at the same price as the Chinamen, and if I had not something else to do besides
that I could not support my family. One dollar a day and board is as much as a farmer
here can pay to make farming a paying institution. I could not live on less. It takes
about 65 cents a day for a family to live here.

Three years ago the crops would have been saved without the Chinamen, only it
would have taken a little longer. They did not get in all their crops in time because
the white men would not come in when the Chinese were here.

If there were no Chinese or Japanese here we would have lots of white people. In
the course of my business I have had a great deal to do with the moving of household
goods of people to the station, and it is a shame to see white people being driven out of
the country by Chinese and Japanese. They move away because they cannot get work
in the winter. The Chinese are monopolizing all the wood-cutting, and white men can-
not make enough to support their families. There are many such cases. It makes my
heart sore to see white people moving away. The men who come here are sober and
industrious. There have been only two cases in three months where men have been
chai-ged with being the worse of liquor, not ten cases in a year. The white men who
come here are sober and industrious. There are about twenty idle men in town at pre-

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 207

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

sent. Tlie Chinese come in here in bunehcs, at times there may be a hundred of them
in town for a few da_y.s, but generall)- there are from seventy to eighty of tliem here all
the time.

Q. Do 3'ou favour restriction or exclusion of Ciiinese ? — A. Yes, sir. I think we
ought to apply the remedy as our friends in Australia have applied it, by a high poll
tax, and keep the Chinese and Japanese out altogether. They are a very undesirable
class to have in our community; they will not make homes here ; they will remain
Chinese as long as they are here. I have never seen a case where a Chinaman has made
a home such as a white man would make here, building up a home the same as the com-
mon labourer would. I am an Englishman from Herefordshire.

John 8. Annett, of Esquimalt, said : I am a cooper by trade, at present foreman at
the lime kilns. The employees are mostly Chinese. There is not much demand for
work because of Chinese competition all around. If I lost vlyv place down here I do not
know where I would get another place. I have had opportunities of observing what the
effect of the presence of the Chinese is upon the country here. I may sa_y that I came
here in 1891 on a special excursion. Thei'e were fifty people in the car ; of those fifty I
am certain that not over twelve remain in the country now. I know of fourteen who
came from Newfoundland with the intention of settling here, and within two years every
one of them had gone back., A great many of those who came here on the same excur-
.sion with me were mechanics, that were willing to work at anything and become settlers
here, but found that everything was filled up by Chinese, and there was no place for
white mechanics here to make a living. Fifty settlers came in the car ; I cannot find traces
of more than three or four in the province now. I am certain not more than twelve out
of fifty can be found in the province here now.

Q. Why did they leave? — A. Because thev found they could not get work at their
trades in the Province. Places were all filled by Chinese. That was the reason given
me by those with whom I came in touch after we had been here a little while. While I
resided at Millstream, eight years ago, there were four white men left there. They
went back east for the same reason. These all came within my own knowledge. The
four who left Millstream did not come at the same time as I did. They left because there
was no opportunity for making a living here. The competition with the Chinese was
too keen. Of course it has to be taken into consideration that when they left, business
was a little dull here. They dropped off between 1892 and 1894, and I may say that I
know of one, an extra good workmah, who was capable of drawing plans and overseeing
work, he had been employed overseeing the work on a building costing |!30,000 in St.
Johns, New Brunswick ; he came out here with the idea of bettering himself, and he
got thoroughly discouraged and had to go to the other side to make a living. Two
others went at the same time with him. Another one of the little company was a first-
class mill man ; another was an' architect.

Arthur Samuel Emory, Victoria, carpenter and joiner, president of trades and
labour council, said ; Chinese have driven white labouring men out of a great many
employments. They have been a great detriment to the province in that respect. The
Chinese have regular steady employment in the lumber mills and brick yards, while un-
skilled white labourers camiot obtain steady work in Victoria. White men and their
families have been driven to leave Victoria and seek employment elsewhere. The
Chinese are no good to the country as citizens, and they have driven many good citizens
out of the province.

Q. Would that apply to the Japanese as well as the Chinese what you have said ?
— A. Yes, I think it applies with equal force to Japanese. They also have driven un-
skilled workmen out of the country, and some unskilled workmen into some of the
rough work in the trades, so that even good tradesmen are walking around without be-
ing able to get employment. The effect of the Chinamen taking the places of unskilled
white labourers has been to drive out skilled labour. Ordinary workmen cannot get
work to do becau.se the Chinese have monopolized all the labour that is done. Skilled
mechanics cannot get steady employment. The Chinese by their competition have re-
duced the wages in some of the trades, and the Japanese have had the same effect.

208 RJUPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

In our trades and labour council there are twelve or fourteen trades represented.
One of the regulations is against oriental labour. If we were properly organized
Chinese would not be here at all. If Chinese and Japanese were working at the same
rate of wages as whites, the organizations would not interfere \vith them at all.

Henry Atkinson, landscape and market gardener, Victoria, said : I have known a
great many white people who have come here and gone away again because of the
Chinese.

Q. Do you know that of your own personal knowledge ? — A. Yes, I know of
many ha^Tng gone away aftei' coming here and finding the Chinese competition here.

Q. Where did they go ? — A. All over the world, anywhere they could go to escape
Chinese competition. Australia, New Zealand and South Africa.

Q. Explain that if you can, the wages here are high I — A. Tlie wages are good,
but there is not sutKcient regular work for good men to come here, because the Chinese
have monopolized regular work.

William Stocker, president of the Nanaimo miners and mine labourers' protective
association, said : The presence of the Chinese here has a veiy injurious effect upon wliite
labour. Thelabouringman would be to-dayinamuch betterposition than heis if the Chinese
were not here. He would be able to make more money and spent more in the purchase
of supplies. I consider the more money I am able to make the better member of the
community I will be, able to do better by my family in the way of gi\ang my little girl
education, and in affording my wife more of the luxuries : all round, living better and
spending more money in the conununity, yet still sa\-ing and making a little home for
myself, and settUng down as a good citizen of the country.

Lionel Terry, Alexandra, said : The presence of Chinese here has a tendency to keep
whites out of the country. Two or three of my acquaintances have come out with the
intention of taking farms in the country, and as soon as they found Chinese here they
went off' : they did not like Chinese ; they preferred to quit British Columbia because of
the Chinese. These were British subjects.

Alfred John Curie, Secretary of the Nelson Trades and Labour Council, with which
fom'teen L'nions are affiliated, said : Our membership is about a thousand. The Labour-
ers' Union of this city includes that class of labour that clears land, but there is not
much of it to do. The wages for that kind of work would be 82.50 for nine hours.
We make every effort to get men to stand by the scale of wages fixed for the different
trades. When I mentioned clearing land, tliat reffers to clearing lots in the city. A
man would clear for gardening or building purposes, and he would ask the Union rate
of wages, "^'hite labourers do most of that work, but they are not engaged in market
gardening, as the Chinese have a monopoly of that here. The cost of board here is from
$5 to 87 a week. Many men live by themselves, called batching. The cost to them
depends largely on a mans tastes and requirements. It w-ill cost some men 82.. 50 a
week and others 85 a week. A man does liis own cooking and very often liis own wash-
ing and tailoring here. Most of the bachelors have got little shacks of their own.

Frank E. Woodside, secretary of the Rossland Miners' Union, said : Through the
Trades Council we have ascertained the number of Chinese in town. On November
21, 1900, there were 40.3 Chinamen in town, of those there were employed in
laundries 116, in gardening 50, as woodmen 76, in the grocery business 39, hotels and
restaurants 25, gambling 30, keepers of lodging houses 5, as domestic servants 62. The
Union gave an expression of opinion upon the question of Chinese immigration in the
form of a resolution that I have here, passed on February 6, 1901. It was carried
unanimously at the meeting. I think the immigration of Chinese and Japanese
into this province should be stopped, for the reason that they are either directly or in-
directly in competition with the white people in this country throughout the mining
camps in this province. As a rule there is a surplus of white labour liere. The fact is,
the Chinese and Japanese ha^•e the preference as domestics and cooks here, and would
have the preference in other things but for the L^nions ; but for the Unions there would
be more white labour idle than there is at the present time. No Chinese are employed
working underground here. There is every class of people employed as muckers, except
Chinese and Japanese. The majority of them within the last year, since April, 1900,

ox CHIXESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 209

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

have been Italians. A .i,'reat many Italians have come in here within six month.s pa.st,
and they claim they have been replaced on the railway by Japanese ; driven from the
railway they came to this town and go into work in the mines as miners and sliovellers ;
shovellers get S-.SO a day ; at timber and machine work they get $.'5.50 a dav. The
common labourers aroiinrl the mine on the .surface get 8-. 50 a dav. . I considei- that
Chinese and Japanese laboiu- employed on the railways indirectly affects the muckers in
the mine. Those men come in here and are employed as muckers, and finally thev work
themselves into being miners, and work themselves into competition with the machine
men and timber men and replace them. They affect the surface men along the .same
line ; they affect the ore-sorter.s as they affect everyone earning a livelihood in the mine.

I do not know that any other class of men coming in would affect the miners. It
is the immigration of Chinese and Japanese that is causing us all this trouble. For-
eigners coming here cause us a great deal of trouble. I call foreign labour European
labour, oriental labour. There has been no effort made to prevent them coming in as
free men, but when they come under contract there has been an effort made to prevent
that ; otherwise there has never been any protest at all.

John Valentine Cook, tallyman, lumber rater and inspectoi-, of Vancouver, until
recently employed at the Hastings Mill, said : In my opinion the employment of so
many Mongolians tends to prevent eastern labour of that class coming here. Thev will
not come and compete with that class of labour. My advice to those in the east is to
stop where they are, as long as there are so many Chinese and Japanese in the country.
I have written to twelve at least in the last two years, and have asked them to tell their
friends not to come here because of the Chinese and Japanese being here.

Samuel L. Reid, clothier, kc, Victoria, said : Their presence (the Chinese and
Japanese) has the effect of creating an unfair competition with white men ; it has had
the effect of driving a great many white men out of the country. White men, if they
come here with their families, struggle along for a few months, then they ha\e to leave
town again. I have known of many cases of the kind. I myself have known many
strong hard-working people who have come here, and they have had to leave and go to
the other side, because they could not find employment owing to the competition of the
Chinese.

Stephen French, of Kamloops, general labourer and wood cutter, said : Last winter
the Chinese cut about half of the wood, I guess, and cut under me in price. They did
it at a lower rate than I could. The price they were paying in this town was ^\.'2b a
cord, two cuts : that takes from two and one-half hours to five hours. They will do it
for a dollar and pack it up, and if they see you are likely to get it, they will offer to do
it for 75 cents. I am married and have two children; I have been in the country a
year, came from England. I have had some digging and gardening and ditching to do.
The Chinese are all around. If they find you ask 65 to dig a ditch they will offer to
do it for §2.50. They always cut under you. The white man does not stand an equal
chance with them. A white man cannot make a living in cutting wood when he come.s
into competition with the Chinese. The Chinamen can live on so little that it is
impossible for a white man to compete with him. People who have wood cut are of
course money in pocket b}' employing the Chinese.

AMERICAN EVIDENCE.

F. V. Meyers, Commissioner of the Bureau of Labour Statistics, San Francisco,
said ; I should say that one-half at least of the Chinese in this city are of the class of
unskilled labour, who have no trade, but engage in the fisheries or in fruit picking, or
any labour such as digging or common work about the city. I think that Chinese
competition does affect the earning power of white girls or women to a considerable
extent, in the tailoring trade. That class of work is done in the east by whit« women,
yet here it will be found probably that the Chinese get as much for the work, or more,
than the women get in eastern cities for that class of work. I made an estimate of the
number of people employed in the sugar beet fields and factories as accuratelv as I
could ; I estimated that there were employed in these industries 1,500 whites, Chinese
54—14

210 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

575, Japanese 1,000, Me.xicans 850 ; total 3,925 : that is in unskilled work. In the
factorie.s we estimated that there were 1,375 white people employed and ten Mexicans,
and no Chinese or Japanese. Tlie point I make there is, when it comes into the more
skilled matter of labour, when it comes that some skill is required in the work, then
white labour is called in.

William H. Middleton, Seattle, Representative of Labo'ur Organization, said :
Q. For ordinary skilled labour are the Chinese sufficiently numerous to interfere
with white labour here ? — A. I do not think so, except in the canning industry : the
Japanese have interfered in several branches and driven the white labourer out. They
work around gardens, on railwavs. around lime kilns, and in these brandies the compe-
tition of white labour comes in.

II. THE Y01TH.S OF THE COUNTRY.

A. R. Milne, C.B., CV)llector of Customs at Victoria, said : A large number of our
boys and girls are going into the United States. Many families have left here because
of the lack of employment. Their girls could not even get employment making under-
wear, and other such things, and they have been driven to California where they can
get work and earn good wages. We have many intelligent boys and girls here now
attending our public schooLs, and as soon as they get through there all the prospect
there is for them is to go to the other side. We are supplying the other side with the best
labour and depleting our own country. There will be sufficient girls to supply the
demand if there were no Chinese here. If the Chinese population is iTiereasing, the out-
look is a serious one. I do not think it is possible to estalili-h a rule for immigration,
that when there are so many white labourers there may be so many Chinese and Japa-
nese.

John M. Duval, Xew Westminster, said : All avenues of labour except highly
skilled labour are being closed to white people, and even the merchants are beginning
to feel the competition of the Japanese. In four or live years there will be five thou-
sand bovs and girls in ^'ancouver looking for employment, and they cannot get it
because their places have been tilled by oriental labour.

Samuel M. Robins, superintendent for eighteen years of the New Vancouver Coal
Company, Nanaimo, said : Most of our min rs who have arrived at marriageable age are
married. A great many own theii' own homes. Large numbers are permanent resi-
dents of Nanaimo. That raises the question that I have already referred to, the
aversion on the part of children of white people to manual labour. Children are grow-
ing up here, their parents or head; of the house working in the mine-, and those children
are not able to secure any employment, and it has become a serious question w ith
parents what to do with their chihh'en. The presence of the Chinese deters chiklren
from seeking employment because of the Chinese being employed at certain work, and, as
I say, the parents do not know what to do with their children, with the young boys
and girls who are gr.iwing up in our community.

Dr. \^'illiam W. Walkem, of Nanaimo, sai I : I am the father of a family. I have
got two grown up boys and another one growing up, and the question is a very impor-
tant one to me. I have to consider very seriously what I am going to do with my boys.
All the avenues of ordinary employment are blocked. If they are not blocked for my
class there are others blocked, and that class is taken up by another class. The Chine e
take the place in certain work, and that presses people from that work into a higher
class, until the thing works itself out. There are a great many people about our streets
in search of employment and they cannot get it.

John Stewart Fraser, of New Westminster, employed in hmng sidewalks, said : I
know of 38 men having been turned away from the Hastings ilill last winter, in Van-
couver, young able-bodied men willing to work for any rate of wages that would have
afforded them a living, and at that time I counted 74: Japanese shovelling snow, yet a
white man could not get work. i\Iv oldest son and two of my nephews have been in
Vancouver since the fire until recently, and they have been driven from their own
country by the Chinese and Japanese, compelled to seek a living in the State of Wash-

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 211

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

ington. The conditions existing now alarm me. TJiey alarm me because I have still in
this province three sons, and I am very anxious for their future. When I see the
Central iSchool up here dismissed ; t noon and see the large number of fine boys
coming out there, I stand and pause and think what are they going to do, where are
they going to get work ; thev cannot compete with Chinese and live respectably. Some
provision must be made for them, and if the Chinese and Japanese are allowed in this
country those boys will be driven out of their own country and have to seek a living on
the other side.

Q. You went to the Hastings Mill and found thej- were full up I — A. They were
starting up after being shut down. They were to start up that morning, and the other
37 men went with the same object that I did, — to find work.

Q. And you found that they had previously made arrangements 1 — A. The labour
market had furnished all they required, and there was nothing for us to do then. I at
that time counted 7 4 Japanese shovelling snow, and I .saw not a white man in the yard.
Thev were emploved that morning. We were there early to make application for work ;
we were there before 7 o'clock.

Q. Do you think there is anything extraordinary in that ? — A. Nothing, except to
show that the labour market was overstocked. I wish to show the conditions, that I
unsuccessfully looked for work last winter. I looked unsuccessfully for work until Mr.
Furness, the foreman for the Corporation of New Westminster, took compassion on me
and put me to work in March ; as a special favour he was generous enough to put me to
work then.

Q. What i.s your business, regular business ; have you a trade ? — A. Building rail-
ways, tramways, .streets, sidewalks, bridges, wharfs ; in Manitoba I was working on
the Canadian Pacific Railway.

In San Francisco their encroachment on the work of women and girls has created a
problem which is thus described by the mayor of that city, who, as he assured us, has
made a special study of the Chinese qnestion. He says : The Chinese have been so long
in domestic service that they have crowded out the white girls. It is one of the
problems of the day to find places for our young women. I have helped myself within
the last three months to establish a place from which families could get white women to
work. We got a number of sewing machines and got white girls to make up women's
work, but we had to give it up. The Chinese would bring their wares to the stores and
sell it cheaper than we could produce it.

The result of the evidence bearing upon this subject is beyond question. The
conditions which result from the employment of Chinese and Japanese in every avenue
of unskilled labour prevent many white immigrants from coming to the province, and
induce many who have come to leave. The occupations which usually afford work for
boys, girls and women are all occupied to a great extent by Chinese and Japanese, with
the result that steady employment is largely closed to the youth of the country and to
women who have to seek employment of some kind to earn their living, and apprehension
is expressed, which we think well founded, b\- many prominent witnesses and heads of
families of all classes as to the outlook for the youth of the country, and fear is expressed
that as they grow up, tliev will have to seek a livelihood beyond the limits of the
province.

CHAPTER XXL— MERCHANTS AND TRADERS.

The following statements prepared by the Chinese Boards of Trade show the ■s'olume
of Chinese trade of the cities ot Victoria, Nanaimo, Vancouver and New Westminster.
In other towns and villages where there are any considerable numbers of Chinese there
are also Cliinese merchants, with whom they chiefly trade.
54— Ul

212

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Following these statements will be found the evidence of a number of merchants
and other traders, giving their views upon Chinese immigration as it affects them.

Classified statement of Merchants engaged in busine.ss in the city of Victoria, British
Columbia.

Business.

Importers and manufacturers of opium

Dealers in dry goods and manufacturers of clothing

Butchers, provision and poultry dealers

Druggists and dealers in general merchandise

Manufacturers of Chinese clothing

Merchant tailors

Boot and shoe dealers

Restaurant keepers

Pawn broker

Jewellers

Tinware dealer

Cigar manufacturers

Rice millers

Greengrocers .

Manufacturers ladies' silk underwear ...

Cannery contractors and importers. . . .

Importers silk fancy goods, curios and general merchandise..

Wholesale importers general merchandise . . .

Retail importers general merchandise

Total ,

Dated at Victoria, B.C., March 21, 1901.

Total business done by all Chinese business firms in the city of Victoria, B.C., for one
year last past ending February 17, 1901, $1,059,805.12.

Gold.

Importations from China S 107,594 78

Goods purchased in Canada, England and United States -1:64,369 35

Canada customs duties, wharfage, freight and drayage. 148,376 75
Revenue and road tax, assessment tax, business

licenses (exclusive of labourers) 7,804 85

Water rates, gas and electric lights 9,452 25

Insurance, fire 4, 1 14 20

Eeuts paid to white landlords (exclusive of labourers'

dwellings) 34,274 75

Postage stamps (exclusive of labourers) 1,511 60

Custom house brokerage . . 807 50

Real estate owned by Chinese in the city of Victoria, B.C. 296,090 25
Total capital invested in business in the city of Vic-
toria, B.C 573,500 00

LEE CHEONG,
President Chinese Con. Ben. Association.

Dated at Victoria, B.C., March, 1, 1901.

UX CHIXESE AX I) JAl'AXESE IMMIGRATION 213
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54
Cl.\ssified .statement of merchants engaged in business in the city of Vancouver, B.C.: — -

Merchants (comprising 47 firms) partners 143

Classified as follows :

Importers and wholesale dealers 8

Retail grocers 7

Opium manufacturers 2

Greengrocers, Ijutchers and poultry dealers 15

Rice millers 3

Dealers in silk and fancy goods 2

Merchant tailors 2

Manufacturing clothiers iS

Total amount of business done b_v all Chinese business firms in the city of Van-
couver for one year ending Feb. 17, 1901. 8518,051.50.

Importations from China S 78,198 13

Goods purchased in Canada and England 193,176 95

Goods purchasefl from United States 2,655 05

Canada customs fluties, freghtage, wharfage, and drayage 95,760 92

Capital invested '. " 256,600 00

Rents paid to white landlords 30,808 40

Water rate.s, gas and electric light 7,875 20

Business license taxes (revenue and assessment) 5, 109 75

Fire insurance 2,568 20

Postage stamps 1,801 50

Customs brokerage 833 80

Real property. . .\ 124,058 10

Statement showing numljer of merchants in the city of Nanaimo, and the towns of
Extension, Oyster Bay, Alexandra, M'ellington, Chemainus and Duncans, B.C. :

Nanaimo merchants . . 14

Merchants in the six towns 24

Total business done bv the above Chinese merchants for one year last past ending
Feb. 17, 1901, amounting to 8162,9.30.

Goods purchased from white merchants S 35,262 00

Property owned by Chinese 57,525 00

Business licenses and taxes (exclusive of labourers.). . . 378 50

Gas lights, water rates, wood and coal 3,884 00

Postage stamps (exclusive of labourers) 384 00

• Importations from China 27,857 00

Wharfage, dravage, and duty 33,111 00

Customs brokerage 335 50

Rents paid to white landlords 4,773 00

Total capital invested in business 104,300 00

Classification of merchants in the above-mentioned cities and towns as follows :

Importers of provisions.

Butchers

Butchers and provisions.

Druggists

No. of

Firms.

No. of
Partners.

19 49

Dated at Nanaimo. April, 1901.

214 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
STATEMENT OF CHIXESE MERCHANTS OF NEW WESTMINSTER.

The following statement repre.sents the value of importations, business transacted,
ifcc, for the year 1900.

Number of firms or businesses, 20.

Total value of goods imported from Hong Kong to Xew

Westminster by Chinese merchants § 31,950 33

Total value of goods imported from San Francisco 536 36

Total value of goods imported from Canada and the

United Kingdom 155,662 50

Total 8 188,U9 19

Amount paid duty on imported goods 26,119 53

H for freight, wharfage, and drayage 13,830 00

T. in taxes, including city taxes, licen.ses, etc.,

for the same year 2,3-11 50

II for electric light 736 8.5

gas 1,002 25

" water rates 643 82

■wood 1,759 57

II insurance premiums 2,849 95

II rents 3,888 50

II envelopes & stamps 537 05

II customs brokerage 96 25

II rent paid bv Chinese gardeners 1,567 00

taxes ." 52 00

Value of real estate and buildings owned by Chinese

merchants " 70,187 50

Capital brought in from China and inve.sted in different

businesses 76,455 50

Capital invested in cannery 30,000 00

Estimated amount paid in fares, local steamboat,

trams, &c., about 4,000 00

Total business of Chinese merchants, including cannery 316,917 15
Nmnber of merchants, 29.

Da\-id Spencer, dry goods merchant at Victoria, says : I employ about a hundred
hands. I know of no industry dependent upon Chinese labour for its existence. I
think there are enough Chinese here. TheA' do not assimilate with the people of the
country and do not form an integral part of the population of the country. They
merely come here to see if they can make a little money, and go back with that
money to China. I do not think the country can be built up with a people oi
that kind. The strength of a country depends to a great extent on the intelligence and
physical strength and energy of the great mass of the people following the various trades
and callings. I think the effect of favouring further immigration into the country will
be veiy detrimental to the whole countiy. If their places were filled with white people
that would increase the trade of Eastern Canada and make it better for all classes of
mechanics and tradesmen. The fact of the working man knowing the Chinese were here,
and were allowed to come here would not have any serious influence on anyone coming
to the country one way or the other : that is to deter them. If the employment of
Chinese was barred it would give a stimulus to some industries. I am selling goods,
manufactured goods, I sell here irrespective of any Chinese conditions or competition,
and I think I can still do it, — ladies' wear of all kinds. I do not think the Chinese had
anything to do with the present development of the country except in the canneries. I
would rather have the canneries witli the Chinese if it could not be carried on in any
othei' way. And the same with respect to the lumbering business. In my store I

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMKlliA TION 215

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

employ girls t'rcnn $15 to $50 a month, some $60 ; $15 would be low wages. They board
themselves. Girls earning $15 a month generally live at home with their ))arents and
are learning the business. The supply of that class of labour is not specially abundant
now. The cause is, there are many who do not want to work. You cannot compel men
to work if they can live without it. They will stay at any particular service until they
get married. 1 think the country is able to keep pace with other jiarts ecjually as well
without the Chinese. The Chinese patronize me (piite a bit.

Robert Erskine, grocer, Victoria, says : I have been in business seventeen or
eighteen years. The presence of Chinese I think does not decrease our business, but it
certainly does not increase it as the same number of whites would do.' I am in favour
of restriction. It would tend to benefit the country. If white people came here tiiey
would bring their families with them and trade with grocers and others. They are in
direct competition with me in some lines. They peddle a good deal ; they go around
from house to house and sell tea and other articles. I think the restriction of Chinese
would have a tendency to increase white immigration. Our business would be doulile, at
least, \vhat it is with the Chinese here.

Robert H. Johnston, seedsman and nurseryman, Victoria, says : 1 deal with the
Chinese to a large extent in the sale of seeds, roughly speaking about .^4-00 a year. I
favour prohibition oi' a tax that will amount to about the same thing. I would suggest
a tax of about .$500. I do so, first, from a point of my own interest. If the Chinese
were excluded my business would increase greatly in a few years. For intelligent work
the w bite man is far better. I would prefer to have a white man any time to the
Chinese. If the Chinese were excluded it would be better for me, because the white
men w'ould raise vegetables for themselves. They would buy seeds in small ([uantities
and I would get better prices. I have a good deal of competition with the east. They
send catalogues to everybody.

Hardress Clarke, grocer, of Victoria, says : The Chinese peddle fruit, vegetables
and tea, but not to the same extent as some years ago. I deal in fruit and vegetables.
They injure mv business to a great extent. 1 am in favour of further restriction. I
look at it from a British standpoint. They interfere with our labouring people and
they confer no benefit on the country. They rlo not assimilate or take any part in our
institutions. We have institutions to keep up, and if the Chinese were not here we
would have white people in their places who would help to keep up those institutions
and benefit the country at large. They will never unite with us. It would not be
desii'able if they would assimilate. Their presence here lessens the volume of my trade.
We send nothing to ' Chinatown,' but we do to some Japanese institutions. The
Chinese ha\-e their own stores for their own people.

Alexander G. McCanfUess, of Victoria, ready-made clothing and gents' furnishings,
says: The presence of the Chinese affects my business very seriously, for the reason that
they make ordered clothing for the price of a ready-made suit, and many people go to
the Chinese instead of coming to us merchants. They compete directly with us. I
consider that they have a very serious effect on everything. They drive white men out
of the country. I consider the country would be much better without them. Take for
instance this city, and other towns would be just the same. We must have at least
three thousand Chinese in the city. W'e could get along in the city here without a
single Chinese. If the Chinese were not here we would have at least five thousand
more white citizens. These five thousand would mean a great many more families
housekeeping. It would mean an increase in trade in every shape and form, clothing,
dry goods and groceries. White men live better and spend three times as much as the
Chinamen do. White men will have their families here, and that would mean that
most of their earnings would be spent in the province.

Samuel L. Reid, of Victoria, ready-made clothing and gents' furnishings, says :
The presence of the Chinese in our business has the effect of decreasing the volume
of trade, and of creating an unfair competition with white men. As years go on they
are getting more and more into difterent lines. The number of lines they are getting
into is increasing. Thex are being employed in many more lines than they were a few
years ago.

216 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISHIOS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Alexander Wilson, tinsmith and plumber, Victoi-ia, says : There is one Chinese
firm in my line of business. His competition does not injure my business. The Chinese
buy some things from us. I do not employ Chinese. Most decidedly I prefer to
employ men of my own colour. I faxour restriction against the Chinese becoming
naturalized, by an educational test and long residence in the province. I would favour
legislatit)n denying the riglit of naturalization. If we had been a v:ouple of thousand
miles from California and a thousand miles from the other side we would have had
much more population. I mean liy that, that we would have been in a position to
grow everything that we require, and the country would have been developed faster
if we had not the competition of California and the State of Washington. I would
advise the immigration of Chinese to go on. Their work is ver\' necessary at times.
I do not believe in restriction at all. I am a freetrader. I do not believe in keeping
goods or people of any kind out of the country. The Chinese live as well as they can.
There is no question the white man who comes here and raises a family is much preferable
to the transient gentleman who comes here and makes money and goes. It is all one
thing whether a nigger or a Chinaman or a Scotchman starts up a business ; if he makes
a success he is a benefit to the country.

Robert F. Green, general mei'chant, Kaslo, member of the pi'ovincial legislature
for vSlocum, says: I am thoroughly convinced that were we able to jirohiliit the further
incoming of this class of labour and substitute in its place as manv white labourers
who would come here with their families the province would have an era of prosperity
such as it has never seen up to the present time, because the presence of these people
here who would need supplies of all kinds, clothing, groceries, lumber for building,
would give employment to so man}' mechr.nics and artisans, and the very fact that
there would be no competition with a menial or servile class would be an important
factor in producing a steady flow of immigration here to take the places of the servile
Chinese and Japanese. There are comparatively few Chinese in my section of the
country. We have two thousand people in Kaslo and the Chinese population numbers
one hundred.

Thomas Lewis, clerk of the City Market, New ^^'estminster, said :

Q. Do the Chinese do any business in the market? — A. They occupj' themselves
mainly in peddling : they sell small vegetables on the market, but I have nothing to do
with the peddling. They sometimes handle bulk stuff. Once in a while they buy in
the open market. Their regular business is raising that kind of stufl', and we all know
thev do a good deal in peddling. They usually sell out in peddling, but sometimes they
bring a little to the market. Of course the white men would like if they were not there.
They seem to do their own little business themselves. Personally I have never been
able to see that their peddling through the citr interfered with the prosperity of the
market. The market is only held one day in the week. Some of the white men
peddle.

Q. Couldn't vou have two markets a week I — A. There is a difficulty in getting the
ranchers to come in. There is such a wide district, it is difficult to get them to come in
from Ladner and other places. The ranchers come in during the week sometimes and
sell ijuite a lot of stuff" in the city.

Benjamin W. Brown, iif Victoria, iish. poultry and fruit merchant, said : The
Chinese affect mv business. There are as many as forty engaged at some seasons. I
have two stores ; am married and have a family. Chinese have no stores and no families.
I favour restriction and exclusion. We get vegetables from California and other places,
but as soon as Canadian vegetables come in we do not send to California for them. I
am the only Canadian, occupying a store, in the fish business in the city.

George Gawley, of Victoria, engaged in fish, fruit and poultry business, says : The
presence of the Chinese affects my business to a great extent. They sell at a lower
price than we can possibly .sell for. They usually peddle. There has been one Chinese
store in the city. They buy fish in the market and peddle them around. Chinese fish-
mongers do not pay rent for stores. At one time there were upwartls of fifty of these
peddlers. They petldle fruit in the same way as fish. There are probably ten white
men engagefl in my business in this city. There are probably two dozen Chinese

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMilKIRA TION 217

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

engaged in the fruit business. There are more Chinese eugayefl in my business than
white men. I am married and have a family of six children. The Chinese wlio engage
in this business, if married, ha\e not their families here. I find my business much
encroached upon by them. The other white men who are engaged in this bu&ines.s have
families, with the exception of one or two. I pay $25 a month rent for the store. I
cannot say it would be a benefit to the rest of the people if the Chinese undersell me in
the market, because the white people receive no benefit from the Chinese in return. 1
■do not know that it would raise the price to any great extent if my business were pro-
tected from the Chinese. I think the public would receive benefit instead of lo.ss. I
think if the whites replace the Chinese my sales would increase from thirty-five to fifty
per cent. It might be profitable for me to peddle from house to house. It would not
add very much to the cost, where we usually employ a man in taking orders. Fi-uit is
principally imported, not a very large quantity being grown in the province. I buy nij'
fish from Indians. During the winter months the vegetables come from San Francisco,
but not after we grow vegetables here. I sell nothing to Chinese.

I do not think $100 tax is enough to keep the Chinese out. I would favour their
■exclusion.

Lee Coy and Lee Lum, two Chinese peddlers, who were examined, gave evidence to
the efl'ect that they made about $1 a day, some days more, and some less. Thev bought
their fish from white fishermen.

SUMMARY.

From the foregoing statements prepared bj' the Chinese Boards of 'J'rade, it appears
that there are 228 Chinese merchants in Victoria, comprising 109 firms, and that the
volume of business done by them for the year 1900 amounted to .§1,059,812.

In Vancouver there are 1-13 merchants, comprising 47 firms, with a business last
year amounting to $518,051. At Nanaimo and vicinity there are 14 merchants, doing
a business last year of .$162,930. New Westminster has 29 Chinese merchants, who
did a business last 3'ear of .$316,917. And, speaking generally, there ai-e Chinese mer-
chants in business in every city, town and village in the province where there are a
sutticient number of Chinese to justify their presence.

Their trade is chiefly with their own people who deal principally with them.

As the market gai-dening is chiefly done by Chinese, they also control the sale of
garden vegetables, peddling them in baskets from house to hou.se. In Victoria there
are fifty such peddlars, and although there is there a fine market house, there is no i)ub-
lic market, nor is there a market in any other town or city in British Columbia except
New Westminster.

Among white traders the feeling is unanimously opposed to the Chinese.

CHAPTER XXII— IS FURTHER RESTRICTION OR EXCLUSION DESIRED?

Tlie following evidence is not intended to give the reasons ofl'ered by the witnesses
in favour of exclusion or otherwise, as that has already been done in previous chapters,
but rather to gather a concensus of opinion from witnesses representing all classes upon
the question of further restriction or exclusion, and where ofl'ered, the \iews of the
witnesses as to whether or not the Chinese and Japanese of the labouring classes who
have come to this country are considered desirable immigrants. It will be noticed that
comparatively few employees are included among the following witnesses, for the reason
that both skilled and unskilled labour are unanimous in favour of exclusion ; while
among the other witnesses every profession, trade and calling is i-epre.sented, especial
care being taken to include employers of Chinese and Japanese labour.

The view of the witnesses as to assimilation is not quoted in this connection, for
the reason that there is absolute unanimity with respect to the Chinese, that they would
not assimilate and it was not desirable that they should. There wan almost equal un-
animity to the same effect with respect to the Japanese.

218 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
VICTORIA.

Joseph D. Graham, Government agent at Atliii, said : I think it would be better
for the white men if the immigration of Chinese into the country were prohibited.

Q. What distinction do you make between the Chinese and the Japanese ? — A. I
would rather deal with the Japanese ; they are a more manly class of people.

Dr. Roderick Fraser, medical health officer for the city of Victoria, said : I think
it would be in the interest of Canada if there were no Chinese here at all.

Q. Would you favour their exclusion? — A. Yes, I think it would be better to have
white people in this country.

Dr. Alfred T. Watt, superintendent of Quarantine for British Columbia, said :
Of course my own private opinion is we would be better off without these people
(Chinese) in this country ; I do not think they are beneficial.

Captain Clive Phillips-Wolley, former executive officer of the Sanitary Commission
of the pro^'ince, author, itc, itc, at present engaged in farming, said : I have passed a
great many years in China.

Q. AVhat effect do you think a large increase of immigration would have upon the
welfare of this country i — A. It will have a disastrous affect. White labour cannot come
in and compete m ith them. I say it is better to have one white man in the country than
to have a dozen Chinese. We do not want the Chinese here.

I am very much prejudiced in favour of the Japanese. I do not want him, but I
think better to have him than the Chinese, if we have to have either of them. He seems
to be willing to live more or less the white man's life. He will live as a \\ hite man
does, and he is cleaner in his surroundings. He is more like our own people in assimi-
lating to our manners and customs and modes of living, and he is more civilized. He is
more manly and gentlemanly. He is a more dangerous competitor with the white man.
He adapts himself more easily to our civilization than the Chinese. The Chinese will
do the lowest kind of labour and stick to it ; the Japanese will get higher if he can, and
he has brain enough to rise into any of the mechanical pursuits.

John Logg, a journeyman tailor savs : I believe, unless the thing is stopped, unless
Chinese immigration is prohibited altogether, that it will not onlv affect our trade, but
it will affect every trade and calling in the province, and the labouring class : it will
aft'ect every class in the province, and instead of having an Anglo-Saxon community in
the province of British Columbia we will ha-^e a British Columbia of Chinese and
Japanese. There is a time coming when the labouring men of this country will fight
for their rights, as they had to fight for responsible government ; that time will not
be long in coming if our grievances are not redressed.

Daniel Campbell, merchant tailor, said : I will say for myself, if the Chinese are
allowed to come in here, if they are not prohibited from coming in here, I would simply
have to pull up and go elsewhere to earn a li\"ing.

William Smythe, a shoe dealer, employs one Chinaman, said : I favour unlimited
immigration. I think the numbers would be restricted by the Chinese themselves.
AA hen things are dull here the Chinese are not slow in ad\ising those at home not to
come here. I do not favour prohibition : I do not favour restriction.

I think white men ought to be able to compete with them on easy terms. A\ e
uant the countrv filled up. There is no pressure as yet. We should have ten millions
■ of people in this country. I would not sav auvthing should be done until the pressure
comes. I do not think there is anv public demand for prohibition now.

Q. Do you not consider the Chinese and Japanese good citizens of the country ? —
A. I do not think they are.

Q. The Chinese do not become citizens except in very rare instances ? — A. No,
there would not be so much objection to them if they became good citizens.
Moses Lenz, clothing manufacturer and wholesale merchant, said :

Q. Would you favour the restriction of Chinese immigration >. — A. In the present
condition of our labour market I would not.

Q. Would vou favour exclusion t — A. Not in the present condition of the labour
market.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMWRA TION 219

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. Are you in favour of any further restriction of Chinese immigration ? — A. Well,
I do not know I am sure. With the present labour market we would be at a great loss
manufacturing in our line if there was any further restriction.

Q. Are there enough Chinese now to meet your demands at the present time ( — A.
Yes, we get all our work done without aiiv difficulty.

Q. Supposing those remained that are here and no others came l — A. I suppo.se
there would be ample labour.

I would not favour restriction nv jirdliibitiou in the present condition of our labour
market.

Ardwcll 'SI. Sandcll, cutter in Lenz it Leisei's ; the firm employs from thirty to
thirty-five Chinese. He says : I think it would be better for the country in general to
have no more Chines come in. The present poll ta.K of iplOO is not sufiicient. I am not
in favour of having no Chinese ; I am in favour of restriction, of keeping them out to a
certain extent. I do not think disaster would follow if they were preventer] from coming
here. I think they discourage the immigration of white people to this province.

I am not in contact with the Japanese the same as I have been with the Chinese.
I think the Japanese are a preferable race to the Chinese. They are not as desirable
as Europeans are. I do not think the Japanese will assimilate with our people ; it
would not be desirable if they wei'e inclined to.

Alexander F. McCrimmon, proprietor of steam laundry, says :

Q. Do you favour an exclusion act ? — A. Yes, I think that would be the best way
out of it. The Chinese would be a menace to British Columbia, if they were granted
the franchise. They would ccmtrol the legislation by their votes. The politicians would
control them. I mean that corrujit politicans would handle them.

George Allen Kirk, of the firm of Turner', Beeton it Co., wholesale merchants and
canners, said : —

Q. Are you in favour of any greater restiiction in the immigration of Chinese ? —
A. Well, I think if you restrict it further it will make matters worse. If they are
turned out altogether we would have to get coolie labour like the natives of India that
are being taken to Jamaica and Australia. You have got to be able to produce your
stuft' at the same price as outside people. The country can only be developed by capital
and cheap labour. If you can get other cheap labour turn out the Chinese altogether.

<^>. Would you favour further restriction or not in the interests of the country ? —
A. That is a question I cannot answer. I cannot say whether it would be beneficial to
restrict the Chinese or not.

Q. Do you think it would be better to let them come in ] — A. It is a ditticult ipies-
tion to answer : I ha\"e not given mucli thought to that. I would rather have restric-
tion than prohibition. I do not think the SI 00 tax will cut much figure, if they want to
come in the}- will pay the extra .$.50. All I want is to have cheap labour.

Robert H. Johnson, seedsman and nurseryman, said : I favour restriction ; either
prohibition or a tax that would amount to about the same thing ; I suggest a tax
of .§.500.

I would say the Japanese are a greater menace to the country than the Chinese.

William Bull, foreman of brickyard, said : I favour exclusion ; not to send those
away who are here, that would disarrange trade too much, but to put a head tax to
prevent any more coming here. As tlie Chinese decrease here white people would come
in here and take their places.

There are many who regard the Japanese as more dangert)us than the Chinese ;
they can adajit tliemselves more readily to the customs of the country, and they work
for lower wages than the Chinese.

Andrew Strachan, fruit grower, said : I think the tax shouW be raised to at least
8500.

George Jooves, retired contractor, brickmaker and stonemason, said : I am in favour
of keeping the Chinese out altogether. I do not believe in any §500 tax, because I do
not believe the Chinese do any good in this country, and they will never become British
subjects.

220 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

1 do not know as to the Japanese ; I have ne\"er come in contact with them in anj^
shape or form.

Frederick Steplien Hussey, superintendent of provincial police of Briti.sh Columbia
for the last ten years, said : I favour the exclusion both of Chinese and Japanese.

AN'illiam A\'ilson, printer, ex-president of the Trades and Labiiur Council of Vic-
roria, said : I would favour total exclusion, and I would tax everv man who employs
Chinese SlOO a year. I would not tax the Chinamen, but I would tax the man who
employs them.

As to Japanese, I would fa\our restriction. I would faxdur the strict apjilication
of the Xatal Act.

Morris Humber, Ijuilder, brickmaker and contractor, said : I think the tax of iJlOO
very good. Let a man go and come as he likes.

J. W. Balmain, civil engineer, said : The Chinese are a great disadvantage in
British Columbia. If the Chinese are allowed to come in here as they have come in in
the past it would become a very serious matter to the country.

What I have said as to the Chinese refers in a great measure to the Japanese : still
the Japanese seem to be adopting the white man's customs and mixing more with the
whites.

Arthur Samuel Emory, president of the Trades and Labour Council of Victoria,
said : Tlie Chinese are no good to the country as citizens, and thev have driven many
good citizens out of the province.

I think we could follow in the steps of the United States and exclude the Chinese,
.and the Japanese question could be woi'ked out bv treaty between the governments.

Alexander R. Milne, C.B., collector of customs for Victoria, said : ^ I do not like to
express an opinion as to the present Chinese population, but if that population is
increased the outlook is very serious.

I think putting a restriction on immigration would only excite the Japanese, because
they are very sensitive as to their status as a people and as a nation. I think the
Japanese nation have reached the stage in which they want the same privileges and
amenities as are given to a first class power.

William George Cameron, merchant, said : I am in favour of prohibition. I would
not favour the Chinese being admitted to citizenshij) if they remained here.

I think tlie Japanese are a better class of people than the Chinese.

Samuel L. Reid, merchant, said : I am in favt>ur of prohibition. As to the
Japanese, they are not a de.six'able class of citizens, but they are more inclined to live
like Europeans than Chinese. In a few years they will embrace European ways entirely.

John Pierty, wholesale merchant, said : I am thoroughly in favour of the exclusion
of the Chinese. I have not drawn any distinction between the Japanese and Chinese ;
I may not have considered the (juestion enough to express a definite opinion as to that.
I think there should be restriction on them.

George Gawley, dealer in fruit, fish and poultry, said : I favour the exclusion of
the Chinese. I do not favour granting the franchise to them at all.

The Japanese are a class of people who have come in here recently. I never came
in contact with the Japanese.

Benjamin William Brown, dealer in fish, fruit and poultry, said : I fa\ our further
restriction to the extent of a heavier tax. I would like to see coolie or Chinese labourers
kept out altogether. Tliey are a great injury to the country.

John Bell, roofer and paver, said : I do not believe in a tax at all. I do not think
they are fit to exercise the franchise, and I think they ought to be kept out altogether.
I would like the Chinese to be kept out altogether. I believe in either allowing them
in here fully and freely and giving them the full rights of British subjects, or else
debarring them entirely.

Thomas Deasy, chief of the fire brigade, said : I am opposed to Chinese immi-
gration. I have had very little dealings with the Japanese. I think they are a
superior class to the Chinese, but I believe if the Japanese came here in as great num-
bers as the Chinese we would be in the same condition as regards them.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 221

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

James Edward Painter, wood dealer, eni^jloys Chinese cutting eordwood, said : I
think SlOO is a very good thing to keep inferior labour out, and that is sufficient.

Alexander Gilmour McCandless, merchant, said : There may be difficulties in the
way as to the Japanese. I think that they should both be excluded. If they cannot
exclude the Japanese and can e.xclude the Chinese I would like to see them excluded. I
would increase the §100 tax to 8500.

Joseph Shaw, market gardener, said : I think the effect of Chinese on the country is
ruinous : there will have to be something done.

I think the Japanese are worse than the Chinese.

Hardress Clai'ke, grocer, said : I am in favour of further restriction of the Chinese.

Robert Erskine, grocer, said : I am in favour of restriction, it would tend to bene-
fit the country.

As to the Japanese, they are a race that do to a certain extent ape the white race.
Thev fall more in line with the methods of white people. Those in the province for a
number of j'ears are better than the Chinese.

John Kinsman, contractor, retired from business, said : The tax was increased to
SI 00, and it is my opinion that if that was tried for a year or two that would really
stop a great many coming in here. If there were no increase in the number of Chinese
it would be better. If at the end of two years the tax is not found to be sutficient it
could be doubled.

Thomas R. Smith, of the firm of Robert Ward it Co., general commission merchants
and cannery owners, said : It goes without saying that we do not want any more than
we can help. It cannot be contended they are desirable citizens. From the standpoint
of a citizen I should say further restriction is desirable. I should saj' the Chinese are
the least undesirable (that is of the Cliinese and Japanese). If I made restriction
against the Chinese I would make restriction against the Japanese. I do not sav that
the Japanese is preferable to the Chinese. I think the general policy should be to keep
the Chinese out and gradually to get white men in.

William John Taylor, barrister-at-law, said : The presence of the Chinese has had a
detrimental effect on the province. I think Chinese labour should be entirely excluded.
No more Chinese should be allowed to come in.

As to Japanese labour I think it would be advisable to exclude that also.

Charles F. Todd, wholesale grocer, and engaged in the canning industry, said : I
think the Chinese have been a benefit to the country ; I am merely speaking of the
canning business. I would not recommend that Chinese should be allowed to come in
without restriction, it would be overdone. I should think unless the flow becomes
greater than at the present time SlOO is sufficient. There are very few coming into the
country now, that is as far as I know.

I am not in fa\our of an Exclusion Act with reference to the Japanese. I think
restriction is quite as necessary with the Japanese as with the Chinese ; I should say as
much as on the Chinese.

Albert Edward McPhillips, barrister-at-law and member of the Legislative Assem-
bly, said : I do not think they (the Chinese) will ever become citizens of the country ;
all their sympathies and desires are centred in their own country. I think it is very
detrimental from a national point of view. I think the per capita tax should be increased.
As a member of the Legislature I am in favour of increasing it to 6-500.

As to the Japanese, there is difficulty there no doubt ; still, Canada, I think, could,
without interfering with interests, cope with this matter b_y exclusion.

Joseph A. Sayward, manager of the Sayward Lumber Co., said : I am in favour of
restriction. I do not believe we should have any more Chinese come into the country.
I think what we have here is sufficient.

I think the same objections would apply to the Japanese.

Robert G. Tatlow, M.L.A., for Vancouver city, said : I think the influx of Chinese
or Mongolian labour into the country is most decidedly a menace to the white people of
this province and to the well-being of the community and the country generally. My
view is for prohibition of the labouring classes ; I may say I am in favour of prohibition

222 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

as far as it can be got as to both Chinese and Japanese, with due regard to the existing
treaty.

WUliam H. Munsie, lumberman and in the sealing business, said : In regard to
Chinese immigration, I prefer to exclude them, to exclude anj' further immigration.
From the standpoint of the employer of labour I do not tliink the result of exclusion
would be unfavourable.

That would, I think, apply with the same force to the Japanese.

William Harrington Ellis, provincial immigration officer for Vancouver Island,
formerly business manager of the Colonist, referring to the Chinese, said : They are a
sei'ious detriment to the general prosperity of the community. Thev are not and can-
not become citizens as we understand the term. The imposition of the head tax has not
had the effect desired, in my opinion.

As a race the Japanese believe they are capable of taking an equal place among the
civilized nations of the world. Do not consider them desirable from the fact that they
do not and cannot assimilate.

Mrs. Mina Wheeler, public school teacher, said : I favour restriction ; I do not
think they do any good in the country.

Arthur L. Belyea, member of the board of school trustees, barrister-at-law, said : I
would not care to have any more Chinese in the province than are here now.

As to Japanese, I .do not think they are any more desirable than the Chinese. I
qualify that only by saying that the Japanese catch on to our manners and customs
faster than the Chinese. They imitate as far as they can European civilization, but
when it comes to be a question whether they will be Europeans or Japanese, they are
Japanese all the time.

Henry Atkinson, market gardener, said : I would favour prohibition of further
Chinese immigration.

With reference to the Japanese, they are no better ; I put them in the same
category.

William A. Robertson, blacksmith and prospector, said : I am decidedly not in
favour of further Chinese immigration ; I would like to have it restricted, because it is
detrimental to the country and it is demoralizing to the whole community.

Charles F. Moore, bill broker and notary public, said : I resided for twenty-five
years in China. I was in the Chinese service. I was pavmaster in the Chinese Govern-
ment Oifice under Sir Roderick Dhu. I married a Manchu lady, quite diflerent from
the Chinese : the Manchus are far superior to the Chinese, quite a different race, a dif-
ferent language. I am decidedly not in favour of Chinese immigration, because I know
the Chinese intimately, and I believe they are a great menace to our trade and to our
people and to our families. I say that from my observation of them, from an inter-
course of twenty-five years among them.

Hugh B. Gilmour, INI. L. A. for Vancouver City, said : I am in favour of the pro-
hibition of Chinese immigration. It is not desirable to have a class of people in the
country who do not become citizens.

I would also prohibit the immigration of the Japanese.

Edmund James Palmer, manager of the Victoria Lumber Company at Chemainus,
said : I am in favour of total exclusion. I think we have enough of the Chinese here
now. If you are figuring to settle up a community and open up the country, Japanese
are no good. They are less objectionable than the Chinese.

Henry Croft, manager of the Mount Sicker Copper Mine, forty -five miles from
Victoria, said : I think there is a sufficient number of Chinese here now. I do not think
it is necessarv to permit any more Chinese to come into the country. I think there are
enough of Chinese and Japanese here at the present time.

Q. Do vou think there would be any necessity for their further immigration? — A.
Certainly not.

Q. To what extent would you restrict inuuigration .' — A. It would all depend on
the progress of the country.

Q. I am not speaking of excluding those who are here, but of stopping the further
immigration of Chinese ? — A. As far as that goes I should advise the stoppage of immi-

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 223

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

gratioii fi-oni the orient in the future. We have enough oriental labour in thi.s province
now.

Q. Would you exclude further Chinese immigration to the country ? — A. No, I
would simply i-aise the per capita tax on their coming in, and liave fewer come in than
come in now.

Q. If there are enough Chinese here now why do you reijuire any more I — A. I
cannot say any more are required ; that is to be decided yet. I should prefer to keep
the ta.K just as it is.

Q. Do you say you favour restriction ? — A. Yes, to a certain extent ; we do not
require any more Chinese or Japanese here at present. I favour restriction, and that
might be relaxed to a certain extent as they were required from time to time.

I think there is a sufficient number of Japanese here now to meet the demand. I
do not think you can restrict the Japanese.

Major Charles F. J. Dupont, capitalist, said : I think it is only for a transient
period of time we want them at all. We do not wish them to assimilate, and I do not
think they are in such numbers here as to be at all an interference with the white
labourer, and I do not think any further restriction is required. I do not think they
will ever become what may be called Canadians. It is merely an economical question
as to labour having them here at all.

I ha\e had no experience with the Japanese. I can see a marked difference between
them in their habits ; I think the Japanese are better in their habits than the Chinese.
They conform more to the manners and customs of European nations. I think the
danger of Japanese assimilation is greater, but we do not wish them to assimilate.

Dr. Owen Meredith Jones said : I believe in restriction on immigration of Chinese
still further. It would be a good thing for the country at all events. They are not
capable of building up a nation.

I think the Jajianese coolie immigration ought certainly to be restricted. I think
they are both objectionable.

The Rev. William Leslie Clay, Presbyterian ^Minister at Victoria, said : Their pres-
ence here in large numbers is certainly not desirable, nor do I think it desirable that
even those who are here should be allowed to continue their residence here for anv
length of time. I do not think it is to the best interests of the country from any point
of Aiew that they sht)uld be here. I think there are quite enough here now. I do not
think their numbers should be recruited. I think they can never become part of the
body politic, and if they did I do not think it would be desirable. I would not give
them the franchise. I certainly would be opposed to any naturalization of the Chinese.

The current idea as to the Japanese is simply this, that they, with the Chinese,
will not and cannot assimilate with us. They seem to adopt western methods of living,
but I do not think they will ever assimilate and become an integral jiart of our race.

The Rev. Elliot Sjiroule Rowe, Methodist minister of Victoria, said : I think it is
very injurious to the country to have any class of people in the community who will not
assimilate, who ha\e no aspirations, who are not tit to live in social and political rela-
tions with our people.

It seems to me that restriction can only be temjiorary in its effects. I think that
in the meantime there should be prohibition. Speaking from a national standpoint, I
think the general sentiment of the people of Canada would be in favour of the exclusion
of tlie Chinese. I think Canada would be stronger by the exclusion of individuals of
the Chinese race of the coolie class.

Q. Do you draw any distinction between the Japanese as a class and the Chinese ? —
A. Well, the difference in the numbers here is so great that, speaking from my present
information, I would be in favour of the Japanese, but that is speaking from very imperfect
data. My preference would be due to the fact, that there seems a greater tendency on
the part of these people to adopt our customs ; that is speaking entirely from a national
standp(jint, I have more respect for a man who comes to a country with the intention
to settle there and adapt himself to the country and its people, than to a man who simply
comes here to make money and take it out of the country.

224 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A, 1902

Hezekiah George Hall, police magistrate for the city of Victoria, said : Fi-oiu my
experience of the race I hardly think the Chinese will evei' make desirable citizens in
the broad sense of the word, Canadians proper. I would think it was desirable to prohibit
the further immigration of Chinese.

Miss Frances Kate Morgan, teacher and evangelist in the Chinese Girls' Home,
Victoria, which has existed for fourteen years in Victoria, for the rescue of Chinese and
Japanese girls from houses of ill-fame, said : I don't think immigration unrestricted is
advisable : it is not so to the Chinese, and I know it is bad for the country. I see no
signs of the Chinese adopting our mode of life ; I think they are a menace to the public
from their wav of living, the way they herd together.

In Japan thev have individual homes. The Japanese practice polygamy : thev call
them concubines. The children of the concubines are thought as nnich of as the children
of the wife.

Joseph Hunter, M.L.A., for Cariboo, vice-president and general superintendent
of the E. and X. Railway, said : I hardly like to express any opinion as to further res-
triction of Chinese immigration. I do not think they are desirable citizens. I believe
this would be a better country without them. I do not want to moralize too much on
that point. If we could get along without them the country would be better off, I
believe. Whether it could or not I am not prepared to say. My opinion is if the
Chinese were prohibited from coming in in large numbers or proliibited from coming in
altogether, it would not make any great difference in the industries of this country. If
vou restrict the Chinese I do not think you should allow the Japanese to come in.

W. W. Perrin, of Victoria, Bishop of the Diocese of Columbia, said : I think the
present immigration is not a desirable one for the country, because thev are not the best
representatives of the race. The presence of a transient population is inimical to the
best interests of the country. The encroachments of these people on the ordinary oc-
cupations of the people of our country is also a dangerous and objectionable condition.
Honest labour should be respected and is always respectable. I do not think they
should be allowed to come as they have been coming.

I do not think the Japanese are likely to degrade our own people.

To Mr. Cassidy :

Q. Is there anything which renders them objectionable from any standpoint but
that of labour, or that their mode of life is likelv to degrade our people 1 — A. I do not
know of anything of the kind against them in this country.

David Spencer, Dry Goods Merchant, said : I think further immigration of Chinese
into the country would be veiy detrimental to the whole country. I am not in fa-^'our
of further Chinese immigration.

I think the Japanese would assimilate more with Europeans. I think them a
better class of immigrants.

Robert F. Green General Merchant, of Kaslo, il.L.A., for Slocan, said : I am of
opinion that it would be better for the Dominion Government to restrict immigration
entirely. My opinion is that the Japanese are worse than the Chinese. I say that from
the fact that I have made some little study of the question.

Edward Musgrave, farmer, who has other means and does not make his living by
farming, said : Under present circumstances I would have no restriction at all with
reference to the Chinese,

As to the Japanese, I do not see any necessity for restriction as far as it has gone.

Rev. Canon Beanlands, Clergyman of Church of England, said : I think the
Chinese will always remain servile labour. It has been found in the interest of every
country nearly, at some period or other, to have a seiwile class employed in its develop-
ment. It was chiefly servile owing to the presence of what might be almost called
absolute slavery, and the nearest approach to slavery in our country is the servile
Chinese, the coolie class of Chinese that we have here. I think the Chinese are prefer-
able to the Japanese because they are non assimilative. I think there is greater danger
from the Japanese than from the Chinese, and I think there should be some restriction.

» ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 225

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Noah Shakespeare, postmaster of Victoria, said : I do not think the Chinese make
for the interests of the c^untr}'. It is the very opposite I think. They are an object-
ionable class of people for a new country, or for any country.

Captain Edward Berkley, R.N., said : I am not in favour of Chinese in this coun-
try ; God forbid I should be in favour of anything of the kind, but he is required
temporarilv. He is far more decent than he is given credit.

Michael Finertv, farmer, said : I do not think they are desirable in the country at
all ; the quicker we get rid of tlie Chinese the better.

I do not object to the Japanese as much as I object to the Chinese, but still I want
white people to come into the country and make homes for themselves.

Alexander Wilson, plumber and tinsmith, said : I do not believe in restriction at
all : I am a freetrader. I do not believe in keeping goods or any people out of the
country.

NAXAIMO

At Nanaimo thirty-three witnesses were called, including the general manager of
the New Vancouver Coal Company, lumbermen, tradesmen, miners, mechanics, medical
men, the president of the board of trade, the mayor, and other prominent citizens, and
the result of the evidence shows a practical unanimity for either high restriction or total
exclusion of the further immigration of Chinese.

There are comparatively few Japanese in Nanaimo, and while they were regarded
as likely to become keener competitors in the labour market, they were viewed some-
what more favourably by some, inasmuch as they were said to more readily adopt our
habits and customs.

CUMBERLAND AND UNION MINES.

At Cumberland and Union Mines fifteen witnesses were called, including the
general manager of the Wellington Colliery Company and the local manager of the
Union Mines the mayor, police magistrate, and other citizens. The general manager
of the Wellington Colliery was in favour of fi-ee immigration of Chinese labour ; the
local manager favoured partial restriction ; all the other white witnesses called favoured
either higher restriction or exclusion, except the Presbyterian Missionery to the Chinese,
who did not consider a head tax just, and considered that the fact of the Chinese being
in the country was evidence that they were required.

There did not seem to be much distinction in the views presented between the
Chinese and Japanese.

VANCOUVER.

John Murray, government timber agent, said : I think we have enough Chinese
here now.

As to the Japanese, I think just the same ; we have enough of them here now ; we
do not want any more.

Robert James Skinner, timber inspector, said : Personally I am in favour of the
exclusion of the Chinese and Japanese. From an individual point of view I am of opin-
ion that it would be the best thing for the country, and now is the best time I think to
introduce it ; I mean total prohibiti<in for both Chinese and Japanese.

Robert jNIarrion, health inspector of the City of Vancouver, said : I prefer to have
men here who spend their money in the country and intend to live in the country and
make good citizens.

I feel that the Japanese immigration is far more of a menace to the country than
the Chinese.

Robert T. Burtwell, dominion fisheries guardian, said : I think it would be a good
thing for the country if Mongolians were excluded from coming here. If they are allowed
to come here any further the result will be the driving of the white man out of the
54—15 "

226 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

country. I think it would be better for tlie country if there were fewer Chinese and
Japane.se here, and we had more of a wliite population ; white population is what we
want.

Dr. I. JNI. MacLean, Medical Health Officer for the City of Vancouver, said :

Q. Do you favour the exclusion of the Chinese from this country .' — A. Not as a
whole, not in a general wav : I favour the exclusion of the lower class of Chinese.

Q. You mean the Chinese labouring class ? — A. Well, with some exceptions. Of
course there are many of our Chinese here that I think it would be unfair and wrong to
exclude.

Q. It is not the intention to send those home who are here ? — A. Well, the ordinary
class I would have them excluded.

Q. Does the same rule apply to the Japanese ( — A. Xot so strictly.

Q. Well, from the standpoint of the interest of the nation, how do you look at it \
— A. I am only speaking now from the standpoint of sanitation altogether.

Albert Edward Beck, registrar of the Supreme Court said : I think it expedient
to prevent further immigration of the Chinese of the coolie class. I believe the Japan-
ese should be restricted.

Richard Henry Alexander, manager of the Hastings Lumber Mill, said :

Q. Are you in favour of further immigration of the Chinese ? — A. I think that
information should come from some person who employs them.

Q. Would you care to express an opinion on that subject ? — A. No. If you
want to know my opinion from a political aspect I say personally I should far rather
prefer to have white men as citizens. I would not like t« see the Chinese and Japanese
obtain the franchise. I would not like to see our country governed by them. I should
not like to see any further immigration of them to enter into competition with white
men. They would not adapt themsehes to our political economy. There is no chance
of their becoming citizens in the real sense of the term.

The Japanese do assimilate to a greater extent than the Chinese.

Henry Depeneier, Lumber Mill Manager, said : There is sufficient Japanese labour
here now. I do not employ Chinese.

James W. Hackett, partner in the firm of Hackett and Robertson, Sawmill and
Sash and Door Factory, said : I would not like to see the country overrun with
Chinese. I think there are more Chinese in the country now than are properly employed.
I do not think 8100 will keep them out. I have no particular view on the subject. I
have tried during the time I have been in the country to keep clear of them as far as I
possibly can. I do not think it desirable that the lower class of common labour should
be filled with people who do not assimilate with the white race. I think the present is
the most favourable time to change. There are enough of Chinese here now. I suppose you
have to be guided some by public opinion : you know it is very strong in this country —
public opinion — especially on the Chinese and Japanese question it is very strong.

Havelock H. Spicer, manager of the Spicer Shingle ^lill, said :

Q. Do you think any further restriction should be imposed .' — A. Well that is another
que.stion. The probabilities are in the present condition of the industry, if the present
numbers were kept up, we might experience no difficulty, but we certainly must have a
certain kind of cheap labour to do that work.

James A. McNair, shingle and lumber manufacturer, said : I think if the
Chinese were allowed to increase the same in proportion as the whites it would be all
that was required, but that I am afraid is not possible unless other industries spring up
faster than they are doing. Looking at it from a national point of \-iew I would rather
see all white men here.

Edward H. Heaps, of the firm of E. H. Heaps A- Co., lumber and shingle manu-
facturers and merchants, said :

Q. Do you favour any further restriction on the immigration of Chinese ? — A. I
think if we have protection all through the countn* in every line of business, men
who have only theii- labour as their capital ought to he protected too. I would not
have any objection to the restriction of Chinese, to the restriction of any more coming
in, but we have to have a certain number here for the labour that we have to offer

Oi\^ CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 227

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

now. I think we have a sufficient number of Chine.se here now. I think $100 is
surticient now. I am satisfied with it as it is.

Robert Charles Ferjfuson, manager of the Royal City Planing Mills, said :

Q. Do you favour restriction? — A. I do not know whether I would or not. It
may be well to i-estrict for^a time, but a man has to be governed by the wants of his
business.

John Valejitine Cook, tall\niian, lumber rater and inspector, said : I favour restric-
tion both of Chinese and Japanese. My idea is that the Japanese are more dangerous
than the Chinese. It is my opinion that $100 does not prevent them very much from
coming in.

Q. Why would you exclude them? — A. Because I tliink we have enough white
labour to do the Work they are doing, and white people make good citizens and the
Chinese and Japanese do not.

(Stephen Ramage, saw-filer, said; I think it would be a benefit to the country if
more restriction were put on ; I think it would have a tendency to stop the immi-
gration. I think there is a sufficient number of them here to supply all the demands
of labour for some years to come.

The Japanese are fast becoming a greater menace to the white population than the
Chinese will ever get to be. The Japanese are more able-bodied and they are quicker
to adapt themselves to their surroundings.

Arthur C. Gordon, shingle manufacturer, saifl : I favour restriction on Chinese
ininiigi-ation; I think we ha\e enough of the Chinese here now. That applies to the
Japanese more than to the Chinese. I favour the exclusion of both Chinese and
Japanese. I think as the white population increases the Chinese and Japanese popu-
lation should decrease, and finallj' there will be no more Chinese or Japanese here.

Stephen N. Jarrett, manager of the Vancouver .Sash and Door Factory, said :

Q. Are you in favour of restriction so far as the Chinese are concerned ? — A. I am
to a limited extent. I would be in favour of a heavy head tax ; I would say $500
apiece. If they wish to pay that let them come in. If no more Chinese and Japanese
come in I do not think there would be any serious inconvenience.

William C. Dickson, formerly bookkeeper and yai'd foreman in the Royal City
Mills, said : I am in favour of further restriction on Chinese immigration to the extent
to keep them out entirely ; that applies to Japanese as well. I think the presence of
Japanese here injures the laliouring man fullv as bad, if not worse, than the Chinese.

Alfred Tottei-man, fisherman, said : In regard to race, they are a class of people
who are apart from the white race altogether. Thej' flo not associate with white people ;
they cannot assimilate with white people ; they are detrimental to white i;>eople, especi-
ally to the labour element in our community. There is a wide difference between them
and the whites. They enter into a very unjust competition with the white people, and
their presence here and their mode of living is bringing down the standard of living
here so low, that white people cannot go to work and compete with them. This refers
to both Chinese and Japanese.

Captain John L. Anderson, fisherman, said : The present head tax may keep out
a few, but not many. I do not know that you can exclude them altogether according
to national law, but if there is any way to exclude them, either by increasing the tax to
$500 or in any other way, I say they ought to be excluded altogether.

The Japanese are certainly a greater menace than the Chinese to the white race ;
they are taking the places of white men in all branches of business.

/ James Thomas Smith, farmer, said : The immigration of Chinese and Japanese
retards the development of the country. I -certainly think if they were replaced by a
white population it would tend to develop the industries of the country faster than it is
being de\-eloped by the Chinese and Japanese now. Granting them the franchise would
likely lead to rebellion.

This witness ga\'e sti-ong evidence opposerl to the Chinese and Japanese.

John INIcCarthy, contractor and stevedore, said : I think we ought to stoji further
immigration of the Chinese. All Captain Anderson said in regard to the Chinamen
is perfectly correct ; I confirm it. They are taking the place of the whites. We have got
54 — 15i

228 BEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

a large area of country here, and every man in the country would benefit by white
people being here in place of Chinese and Japanese. I prefer the whites whenever I
can get them. I have no use for the Chinese and Japanese.

Peter Smith, fisherman, native born half-breed, said : I complain that people who
are born in this country are being driven out of it by the Chinese and Japanese. We
cannot live as they do ; we have to live on wholesome food. »

George Gill, brickyard foreman, said : I do not look upon the Chinese as desirable
citizens. Their presence will drive the white labouring men out of the country. I
favour absolute exclusion. My opinion is the sooner the Chinese go from the country
the better.

Abel Wemkem, proprietor of the 1 2th avenue brickyard, said : I prefer exclusion,
not restriction. I would not permit them to come into the country at all. White men
should be protected. I do not see that there is any difference between the Chinese and
Japanese.

Francis Williams, journeyman tailor, said : Wlien I came to the city twelve years
ago I certainly was in sympath)- with both Chinese and Japanese because I had heard
in my own country of the hardships they suffered in their own country and the extreme
poverty they lived in, and I thought they had as much right as anybody else to better
their condition by coming here. I still have sympathy for both of those people, but
thev should act so as others could live as well as they can in the country. If they
would require the same remuneration as white people do there would be no trouble at
all. Observing the circumstances as I have done for the last few years, I have come to
the conclusion that unless this oriental immigration into the province is stopped we will
have to face race questions such as have had to be faced in the south and in other
places. That, gentlemen, I wish you to understand is my firm conviction, and I am
further persuaded that should there come a number of years of bad trade in the province,
that serious results will probably follow. These results would not be long delayed, and
the sooner the immigration of tliis oriental people is stopped the better it will be for
the country, and T think that all legitimate means should be employed to prevent serious
trouble in the future.

The Japanese are more to be feared than the Chinese as competitors.

William Daniels, farmer, said : I used to farm about GTi acres, but after a while I
rented it to a Chinaman. I own that amount of land. I just work five acres myself
now. I rent between thirty -five and forty acres to the Chinaman ; I get $415 cash a

Q. Are you in favour of any further restriction against any more Chinese coming
here ? — A. No, sir.

Q. You think $100 a head is tax enough ? — A. That is for the Government to say ;
I cannot express any opinion at all on that. This is a new country. I do not think
the $100 tax enough. I think I have signed a paper to go to Ottawa to put on a tax
of $500. I think there were enough Chinamen in the country then and I think there
are enough in the country now.

Angus M. Stewart, of Clubb k Stewart, clothing manufacturers, said :

Q. Are you in favour' of further restriction being imposed on the Chinese 1 — A. I
have no use for them here. I do not think the present restriction is suiiicient. I
favour exclusion. I do not think they should come in here at any price. I believe in
treating them well when they are here, but I do not want any more to come here.

As to the Japanese, I would be in favour of keeping them out just as much as I
am in favour of keeping out the Chinese, because if they are not restricted they will
very soon become as great a nuisance as the Chinese as far as I can make out.

J. H. Watson, boiler-maker by trade, officer of Customs, Vancouver, said : Cer-
taihly, things are connected with the Chinese and Japanese immigration which I do not
consider are right, and the sooner the Government does something to right this thing
the better, or our province will soon be depleted of the best of our white men.

William Lawrence Fagan, provincial assessor and collector for the County of
Vancouver, said : I regard the present restriction as sufficient.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRA TION 229

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. Are you in fa\our of t'urthei- restriction of Japanese 1 — A. If y(ju had s(jme-
thing to put in tlieir places I would restrict more of them coming here, but not until
we have other men to take their places. The Japanese do not seem to cai'e about
making homes here ; tliey do not take up land ; they do not seem to care about settling
here ; they come here and make a few hundred dollars and then go back to Japan.

Johannus Buntzen, manager of the British Columbia Elective Railway Company,
.said :

Q. Are you in fiivour of any restriction on Chinese immigration 1 — A. Well, I
ne\er thought the matter over sufficiently to say ; I cannot say. We do not employ
them.

Truman Smith Baxter, ex-alderman, student-at-law, said : I am in favour of
prohibition of furtlicr immigi-ation of Chinese. This applies to both Cliinese and
Japanese.

John M. Bowell, collector of customs, said : I am a civil servant and do not care
to give an opinion. I am in favour of the Natal Act.

Benjamin P. Rogers, manager of the Sugar Refinery, said :

Q. Do you favour the exclusion of Chinese ? — A. I would hate to be without a
ciiok.

Q. Would you favour thp passing of an Exclusion Act to prevent them coming
here ? — A. No I would not, because we require them as cooks.

Q. Would you fa\-()ur an increase in the head tax ? — A. I cannot answer any ques-
ion of that kinfl.

Q. Would you favour an Exclusion Act applied to the Japanese ? — A. It would be
impossible to exclude the Japanese. The Imperial Government woulfl ne\er agree to
that.

Andrew Linton, boat-builder, said : I woukl fa\(iur an Exclusion Act for the
Chinese. '

I put the Japanese on the same basis. I tliink tliey are more dangerous to the
country than the Chinese.

Henry Munden, boat builder, said : I favour the exclusion of both Chinese and
Japanese.

Alfred Wallace, ship and lioat builder, saitl : I would be in favour of further
restriction : I would be opposed to further immigration of either Chinese or Japanese.

Richard Marpole, superintendent of Coast Division Canadian Pacific Railway,
said :

Q. Have you any view to express on the question of Chinese immigration, as to
whether that should be restricted or not ? — A. I do not think I would care to express
an opinion.

Q. Have vou any view in regard to the Japanese ? — A. I do not care to eixpress an
opinion as to either of them.

Alfred Raper, miner from Texada Island, said : I favour the exclusion of Chinese.
I consider them a detriment to the growth of the countrj'. I look upon Chinese and
Japanese in the same w-ay.

The Rev. E. E. Scott, pastor of the Homer Street Methodist Church, Vancouver,
said : I really think it would be the part of wi.sdom to have them (the Chinese) remain
in their own country. In the interests of British Columbia I think it is necessary for
our Government to do something for the protection of white labour. This is his natural
home and it should be protected for him.

Q. Do you hold the same view with regard to the Japanese in respect to immigra-
tion ? — A. Yes, I think it is not a desirable immigration.

Re\-. R. G. McBeth, Presbyterian Minister, said :

Q. What is your view as to Chinese immigration or restrictitm ? — A. In regard to
the immigration I have (observed coming to western Canada as a general thing, any
alien race coming here that remains separate and distinct and refuses to adopt our
manners and customs is more or less of a menace to the country, the menace being in
proportion as that nationality remains isolated. I would prefer not having any more
of them here.

.230 REPOR T OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

What I have said applies practically with equal force to Japanese. I cannot say
I see much diflerence between them, as some people seem to see.

The Rev. John Keid, Presbrterian Minister, said : ]My opinion is that it would be
preferable to exclude for a season all Chinese immigration into this particular province.
There might come conditions in which it might be advisable to relax the exclusion, but
at the present time I am of the opinion from all that has come before me that we are
not assimilating the foreign element now in our midst to such an extent as to justify
our contiiming to receive this element, if it is possible to avoid it.

Q. Do you make any distinction between the Chinese and Japanese ? — A. I have
formed a more favourable opinion of the Japanese as a class ; to me they are a better
class of people than the class of Chinese we have here on the coast.

Rev. Dr. Roland D. Grant, formerly of Boston and afterwards of Portland, Oregon,
said : If you go down to the root of the matter it must centre itself in the question of
the family ; the Chinese coming here as they are coming, without faaiilies, must ha\e
a deteriorating tendency, and the conditions under which the Chinese live here do not
favour the introduction of their families. Restriction has a tendency to develop the
family more in the long run. I do not think the introduction of an Exclusion Act would
produce any serious shock, not at all. The operation of such an act would be veiy
gradual ; it would not be rapid. Its effect upon the Chinese themselves would be bene-
ficial. Its effect upon the Chinese Government I do not think would be injurious at
all. I have had a good deal of conversation with many of the prominent Chinese that
I came in contact with in the United States, and I never found any of them find any
fault with the Exclusion Act in the United States ; I mean that is the feeling among
the higher class of Chinese. I do not think it would have any effect upon the commer-
cial relations between the two countries.

John Morton, carpenter, secretary of the Parliamentary Committee of the Trades
and Labour Coujjicil, said : The membership of the unions affiliated with the council
that were communicated with by circular as to Chinese and Japanese immigration
represented 2-1 different unions with a membership of 1,800. The result was strong
opposition to the Chinese and Japanese in every case. As far as I can make up from
the gist of the communications, they were all in favour of exclusion. If something is
not done very soon there will be developed such a feeling as was developed in New-
South Wales many years ago when the conditions were not nearly so bad as they are in
British Columbia to-day. No one wishes to see anything of the kind take place here,
but much as I would regret it, nij' impression is it will take place if something is not
done very soon to alter existing conditions.

Walter Taylor, fruit canning, said : I am in favour of further restriction on Chinese
immigration : $100 is no good. I think it ought to be higher than that. Whatever
would prevent them coming in freely I would favour that. I think we have too many
Japanese here now.

Frank Burnett, president of the United Canneries Co., Ltd., said : Sentimentally
I am in favour of restriction, but from a business point of view I would favour restric-
tion to a certain extent. I do not think the increase of the tax from §50 to §100
amounts to anything. I think a higher poll tax would be advisable. It would not
absolutely exclude Chinese but it would prevent such a large number coming in. I am
inclined to think too many have come in. It is hard to say what to suggest ; 8300 I
think would certainly tend to keep a large number from coming in. I do not think it
would keep them from coming in altogether.

I think there are enough Japanese here now. I think the same remarks I made
about the Chinese apply to the Japanese, that is regarding the numbers. I think the
desired further restriction of Japanese could be obtained by negotiations.

Henry O. Bell-Irving, manager of the Anglo-British Columbia Packing Company,
that have canneries on the Eraser River, Skeena River, Rivers Inlet, Puget Sound and
Alaska, and manager of the Automatic Can Factory, said :

Q. You would 'prefer to see restriction taken off? — A. Yes, I do not think it is
good to have any restrictions put upon the labour of the country. Supposing restric-
tion were introduced, further restriction, as long as we had the present supply of cheap

oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 231

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

laliiiur we could get along. If there was exclusion I tliink it would make the condition.s
veiy acute witliin the next few year.s.

Q. Would you favour restriction of tlie Japanese ? — A. I am rather for free trade in
labour for some time to come ; I believe it would be the best policy.

I look upon the Chinese as an instrument for the development of the country and
the advancement of the white men. I look upon them the same as I look upon
machinery, steam engines and an}' other machinery to aid in the development of the
country.

Samuel McPherson, mercliant tailor and member' of the Merchant Tailors' Associa-
tion, said : I am in favour of further restriction ; we can get on very nicely without any
more of them.

As to the Japanese, as far as this province is concerned, I think it would be a good
thing if they were restricted.

Alexander McCidlum, merchant tailor, member of the Merchant Tailors' Associa-
tion, said : The Merchant Tailors' Association as a whole are opposed to further Chinese
immigration, and to Japanese immigration as well. I may say we did not discuss that
so particularly. I am ojiposed to fui-ther Chinese immigration. I do not think the
Chinese are desirable citizens.

John AV. Hay, in charge of the social operation of the Salvation Army for Van-
couver, to furnish food and shelter and temporary employment for the unemployed, said :
If white men only could get a chance I sincerelv believe they would come here. I
would not wish to see any of my folks coming here unless they were pretty sure of some-
thing substantial and lasting.

Donald M. Stewart, proprietor of the Pioneer Steam Laundrj', said :

Q. Are you in favour of further restriction of Chinese immigration ? — I am in
favour of getting them out altogether.

The Government should give the same restriction on the Japanese.

Gordon W. Thomas, gardener and rancher, presented resolution passed at a meet-
ing of the Farmers' Institute of Cedar Cottage District : That it is a serious detriment
to the successful j)r'osecution of our industry as farmers to have so many Chinese here.

I think something should be done and done at once to stop the further flow of
Chinese and Japanese into this country. The one is just as injurious to the settling
of the country as the other.

W. A. Cum Yow, a Chinese born in British Columbia, interpreter-, corresponding
foreign secretary of the Chinese Empire Reform Association of Canada, said : It seems
to me that the Orientals are enabling the capitalists to carry on business which directly
benefits all classes in the community.

Nicolai C. Schou, assistant editor of the Daily News Advertiser, Vancouver, and
for nine years reeve of Burnaby, said : Personally I would favour almost total exclu-
sion. I believe from my experience in England and here that if there was an exclusion
of the Chinese and Japanese a large amount of clieap white labour would flow in gradu-
ally, sutticient to meet all commercial requirements. I would favour an increase of the
poll tax to the Australian limit of iir-^OO.

The danger I ap])rehend is mainly the driving out of ordinarj' white labour from
our province. Personally I think the Japanese will settle the Chinese question by com-
ing in here in such numbers as to drive the Chinese out. I think that the future will
be Japanese in place of Chinese. The Japanese difficult)' will be a constantly increas-
ing element. I would rather see two Chinese come in than one Japanese. I would
like to see further exclusion, but I think a country like Japan might reasonably be asked
to consider that. I think that from four hundred to five hundred per annum of the
Japanese of the labour element can be absorbed without detriment. I am simply sug-
gesting that as mv opinion. I cannot say my opinion is based on very close calculation.

The Honourable .lames Reed, Senator, Cariboo, said : I do not wish to express an
opinion as to whether there should be further i-estriction. I am under the impression
that restriction would have very little efic'ct. If you put on .*500 it would have a
restrictive tendency.

232 SUPORT OF ROYAL C0MMI9ISI0X

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

As to the Japanese, I think as far as labour is concerned they are a greater danger
than the Chinese. I think if restriction is applied to the Chinese it should be applied
to the Japanese as well.

NEW WESTMINSTER.

James George Scott, mayor of New Westminster, lumber and shingle manufacturer,
representing nine shingle mills for the sale of their output, said : The Chinese will
never become good citizens of the country. I have a strong objection to the Chinese
which my residence on the coast has not removed. 1 tliink they are an undesirable
element both from a national and a sentimental point of ^■iew. I think the feeling
against the Chinese is much stronger than that against the Japanese. I think the poll
tax of §100 will have no effect whatever.

Q. Having regard to the various industries, in the interests of the countrv which is
more desirable 'l — A. In the interests of the country a $500 tax will be more desirable.

Alexander Cruickshank, who has a contract to settle a large tract of land on the
Fraser, said : I would be in favour of any measure in the direction of exclusion I draw
no distinction between Chinese and Japanese.

Alexander Ewen, canner, said :

Q. Are you in favour of any restriction on Chinese immigration ? — A. I do not
interfere with matters of that kind at all. Politics is not my business. Tlie Chinese do
not hurt me.

I have no view to express because I cannot tell whether it would be good or bad.

James Anderson, cannei', said ; Mj' opinion is to get rid of both the Chinese and
the Japanese if the conditions will allow it. I think you could do better without the
Japanese than you can without the Chinese. I would like to see nothing but white
labour in the country. I am speaking personally, not from a business standpoint. We
would build up the country much quicker with W'hite labour. The Chinese supply a
certain class of cheap labour that you cannot now fill with white men, but that would
soon remedy itself. I say there is no time like the present. The remedy will have to
come some time. I suppose you may as well begin now.

Lewis A. Lewis, manager of the Brunette Sawmill, said :

Q. Wliat is your own view in regard to further Chinese immigration ? — A. ^W11, I
do not think we could get along without the Japanese in the lumber business.

Q. What do you think about the Chinese ? — A. I do not want to give an opinion
on that, because it does not concern me. I think I could get along without the Chinese.
I am speaking from a mill standpoint. Of course, Chinese are as important to some
mills as Japanese are to us. I do not care to express an opinion as to Chinese immi-
gration.

Robert Jardine, manager of the Royal City Planing Mills, New "Westminster, said :
Speaking generally, I prefer white men to Cliiuese or Japanese for our work.

Q. Why would you prefer the white people ? — A. Because they are our own people.
I consider it would be an advantage to the people, and that would be one very good
reason.

Q. If the immigration of Chinese was restricted, if there was a further restriction,
would it affect your trade, your industry here? — A. I really cannot say. We have got
to have a certain amount of cheap labour ; it does not matter whether Chinese or Japan-
ese or what it is, under existing conditions.

Alexander Philip, secretary of the Richmond Farmers' Institute, it embi'aces
Richmond municipality, Burnaliy, South Vancouver, and No'th Vancouver and north-
wards on the coast. He said : I have a resolution from the section represented by
Central Park. From jiersonal knowledge of various members of the institute, from
personal interviews with them, it expresses the general view very well. I may say
there is a somewhat strong consensus of opinion among them regarding the matter. It
expresses my own view as well. The resolution contains this clause : ' We believe that
there should be a tax of not less than §500 on each person of either race (Chinese and
Japanese) entering the countr}-, and also a rigid educational test.'

L-

ox CHINESE AND JAPAXESE IMMIORATIOX 233

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 •

Henry Thomas Thrift, secretary of tlie Settlers' Association of Britisli Columbia,
its object to assist in re-settling the lands that are at present vacant : there are seven-
teen branches scattered all over the province, with a nn'inbersliip of 700 or 800. He
said : I am sufficiently aci)uainted with the views of the members of th." association to
express their \-iews on the question of Cliinese immigration. As far as I have learned
from the members, the majoi-ity of them are decidedly against any increase in oriental
immigration. Any distinction as far as I have been able to decide is that the Japanese
are more dangerous than the Chinese, on account of their superior intelligence.

William James Brandrith, secretary of the fruit growers' association, said : I may
say I do not appear here to-day as representative of the fruit growers' association, but
from my associations with the members I believe they are all in favor of total prohilji-
tion of any further immigration of that class here. It applies equally to the Chinese
and Japanese. I regard them as a very undesirable class to be in the country from any
standpoint.

Edmund A. Atkin, reeve of Coquitlam, said: I think §100 ought to be nearly
sufficient to keep them out. It is just this way, if we go to work to get all the Chinese
and Japanese out of the country, it will raise the wages to such an extent that the
farmer cannot possibly live. You have got §100 of restriction, but then you should
ha^e an educational test as well.

John Armstrong, i'ee%"e of Surrey, said : Have lived hei'e for twenty-twt> years. I
believe the general view is in favour of restriction or exclusion. Heretf>fi)re they have
not been a great detriment to the farmer, but now the opinion held is almost universal
that absolute restriction would be advisable. White labour would be more easily got
if there was a less number of Chinese and Japanese in the country.

Q. Does that apjjly to Japanese as well as Chinese ? — A. Oh, yes, fully as much. I
believe the Japanese \\ill adapt themselves more quickly to our modes of living than
the Chinese will.

The Rev. John Perry Bowell, minister of the Methodist Churcii, said : I consider
the innnigration of Chinese and Japanese to be detrimental to the labour interests of
the country, mainly because a great many avenues of industry where white pe(jple used
to be largely employed are now being monopolized by Chinese and Japanese. Their
pre.sence has the effect of practically stopping white people coming here. From a national
standpoint they are very undesirable. They will never form any part of our nation.
The sooner the remedy is applied the better.

Q. Do you make any distincti<m between the Chinese and Japanese as to their
injurious effect I — A. I do : I think from the fact that the Japanese is better qualified
to adapt himself to the conditions prevailing here makes him a greater menace than the
Chinese to our own labouring people.

A number of fishermen and labourers gave evidence, who were all in favour of the
exclusion of Chinese and Japanese.

We were attended by the Indian chiefs representing the pi-incipal tribes i:)f the
coast Indians, who protested vigorously against the immigration of bi)th Chinese and
Japanese. As they were affected principally by the encroachment of the Japanese in
the fisheries, reference may be had to the chapter on that subject for a fuller statement
of their views.

We have quoted so large a number of coast witnesses upon this subject because we
did not desire to lea\e it in doubt as to what was the prevailing opinion with regard to
further restriction or exclusion of Chinese immigration. With regard to the upper
country we do not deem this course necessary because, having examined a number of
witnesses at Kamloops, Revelstoke, Vernon, Rossland, Nelson, Kaslo and l-iandon,
comparatively few of whom were labourers, but who represented the leading business
men and emplo3'ers and professional men of these localities, we found the opinion to be
almost unanimous that further immigration of Chinese was not desirable, and that if
possible it should be excluded, either by a higher head tax or total prohibition of the
labouring class of Chinese.

The Rev. Dr. J. C. Thompson, who has charge of the missionary work to the Chinese
a,t Montreal, has favoured the Commission with a letter which contains the following ^

234 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

As to the Chinese Exclusion Law, having seen its workings over many years in
Canada, the United States and China, my conviction is that it is wrong in principle,
conti'ary to the Golden Rule, unjust and short-sighted in policj', and the cause of very
much evil ; and similarly of the SI 00 tax. If an evil, why tax instead of prohibiting ?
Their immigration is natural and a right all others enjt>}' ; and that the Dominion
Goveriunent should have ft)rced from such specimens of suffering humanity a sum
approaching 82,000,000 as a tax, kno\\ing as I do their poverty and stricken circums-
tances, is to my mind a cause for i-epentance rather than any thought of increase or
exclusion. The true and natural solution, and one at hand, is the de\elo]iment of China
by Canada and other countries, — not forgetting that China shows greater changes in
the past fifty years than any other countrv excepting Japan probably, also that not
much longer than that ago at the birth of Queen Victoria there was'not an inch of
zaihvay in progressive Great Britain.

The Chinese church membeeship in Montreal in the various churclies is thirty-
three, with a number received into church connection after leaving Montreal, and some
dozen probationers, in the time of the mission — seven years: number of baptisms twenty-
six, witli a Christian Endeavour Society having a roll of forty-three members.

There are about one hundred Chinese Christians east of Winnipeg, six just
baptized at* Toronto and five at Calgary during the month, with a number of candidates
at some points in my district. A dozen have been in attendance at our public schools,
with about a dozen more in eastern Canada.

Their transitory character, inability of most to comprehend a regular discourse,
and opportunity of attendance frequently upon several classes on Sunday, and their
flesire for the acquirement of English, makes the Sunday school, therefore, the training
class and a notable feature in eastern Canada, where the churches manife.st such com-
mendable interest in the enlightenment of these strangers — our language the arrow,
religion its point. Such classes are found across Canada, some two hundred, eighteen
in Montreal, seven in T<ironto, tluee in Ottawa, two in Quebec, Halifax, Winnipeg, itc.

EXHIBIT 12.

Colonel Francis B. Gregory, of Victoria, said : That the strength of the several
corps in the province of British Columbia is as follows : —

5th Regiment, Canadian Artillery, headquarters, Victoria 354

6th Regiment Rifles, headquarters, Vancouver 253

M II New Westminster 101

II Rocky Mountain Ranges, Rossland . . 4o

11 II II Nelson . . 45

11 11 11 Kamloops.. 45

11 11 II Ka.slo .... 45

II II II Revelstoke 45

933

Individual intpiiry woidd be necessary to ascertain the occupation iif the members,
but I verily belies e that as to the 5th Regiment, Canadian Artillery, about one-fiftli are
labourers, a large proportion mechanics and artisans, and the others clerks in offices and
business houses. I have no knowledge of the occupation of the members of the other
corps within the province.

CHINESE OPINION.

W. A. Cum Yow, a native born Chine.se of British Columbia, presented a carefully
prepared written statement from the point of view of the Chinese in British Columbia :
it is as follows :

I was boi-n at Poit Douglas in this province in the year 1861. Mj' parents are
both Chinese. They have lived in the province for nearly 45 j-ears. I was educated

ON CHINESE AND JIPANESE IMMIGRATION 235

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

in the province. I am corresponding foreign secretary of the Chinese Empire Reform
Association of Canada. I have been in close touch with the Chinese all my life, and I
am familiar with their modes of living and of doing business. There has been no system-
atic iiiijxirtation of Chinese into this province since the construction of the Canadian
Pacific Railway. At that time a large number were engaged and brought over. This
was done by the Chinese contractoi-s who were working under Mr. Onderdonk.
Some of these men went back, but others had no means to paj' their way back, and
man}' who remained were in great straits for a long time. These men were all volun-
tarily liired, and were in no sense serfs. Serfdom is not practised among the Chinese.
All who come here come free men and as a rule pay their own boat fare and entry tax.
These are paid in Hong Kong to the steamboat agents before they start. I am certain
none of the Chinese labour contractors here have sent money to pay for a number of
Chinamen to come here. Occasionally, Chinamen have sent money to bring out rela-
tives or personal friends, but that is the extent to which this is done. There is never
any bond given for repayment of such advances, but wliere there is an understanding
that repayment will be made it is always faithfully done. Chinese merchants have
sometimes taken action to limit the number of those coming when they find there are
tx)o many here. They do this by conununicating with the merchants in China, who
have great influence with the labouring classes. They took this course two years ago
when the labour market was over-supplied owing to the number of Jap.s who had come
in. There are not so many Chinamen or Japs here at present as there were a year ago.
Many of those who were here have gone over to the States where liberal wages are
being paid them, and they can do much better than here. Others have gone to the
West Indies and settled there. Many of the Chinamen who previously went to the
West Indies have made lots of money, and some of thenl have intermarried with the
native races. There have been cases of importation of Chinese girls for immoral pur-
poses, but not many. This has been the work of unscrupulous men, who, by gross mis-
representations, and a free use of money have led poor people to entrust them with the
care of their daughters. Proportionately, I believe, there is nothing like the same num-
ber of such cases among the Chinese as among white peo))le, but there are wicked and
unscrupulous men among the Chinese as among other races. I do not think any
Chinese parents would willingly give up their daughters for such purposes. The
Chinese who are here usually congregate in one j)art of the city. The chief reason for
this is for companionship. Besides the Chinese know that the white people have had
no friendly feeling towards them for a number of years. This has been most apparent
since the Canadian Pacific Railway construction days, and it has been accentuated by
those who since then have come into the province from all parts of the world, many of
whom were not in touch with the Ghine.se before. This unfriendliness and want of
respect has caused a feeling of want of confidence among the Chinese, and it certainly
has not tended to induce them to abandon their own ways and modes of life. It was
very different before the date referred to, when a feeling of mutual confidence and
respect prevailed, and all were able to work in harmony. This system of doing business
also tends to keep them together, as it enables them the better to ha%e their t)wn social
functions and meetings. They have their own Board of l^-ade and other meetings as
to their trade interests We have not here the faction element which prevails to some
extent in San Francisco. There are now in this pi-ovince strong branches of the Chinese
Empire Reform Association of Canada. This association has been incorporated. Its
objects are duly set forth in the accompanying copy of the constitution and by-laws. The
Reform Association has branches all over the world where there are Chinamen. They
wish to elevate the Chinese and to promote the prosperity of the old land. The work
is carried on here largely by public meetings and addresses. Some of the members are
most eloquent speakers. This work cannot be carried on yet in China itself, but we
hope for great good to China from the movement, and also to be able to do something
for the good of the Chinese who are here. The association has also arranged for the
translation of some of the best books in the English language into Chinese for distri-
bution among Chinamen in China and other parts of the world. They are also sending
students to different seats of learning to be educated. The Chinese have always a very

236 HE PORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

high regaid to their home land, and a strong filial affection. They sacrifice a great deal
for themselves to be able to send money home to sustain their parents or tlieir families,
and if by any piece of got)d fortune or by success in gambling they make a large sum at
any time, the larger pai't of that money will usually be sent to China for the use of their
families. They do not spend it on themselves. There is proportionately a large amount
of gambling among the Chinese. Some do gamble for large amounts, but more commonly
the play is for amusement only, and for small sums to pass the time, as this is done in
the common room of the boarding house, where all are assembled, though differently
occupied. If a police raid is made and any are caught playing, all ai'e arrested for
gambling or looking on. If the same course were pursued in relation to white men,
gamblers could be caught in some of the bar rooms, and of course all who were at the
bar or in the room would be arrested as onlookers. Chinese use intoxicating liquors, but
not often, and usually in moderation. They use all kinds of liquor. They sometimes use
a Chinese wine, which serves as a tonic for the system. They ^ery seldom get drunk or
drink to excess. They regard all who are excessive drinkers as barbarians and beneath
contempt. So strong is the feeling among them, that if any one should indulge too
freely, they are heartily ashamed of it, and they at once go to bed. A certain number
indulge in opim smoking, but only a small percentage of the whole. The habit is in-
duced by companionship with those who use it. I have seen white men in the Chinese
quarter using opium, but not many of them here. The opium smokers realize the evil
of the habit, but they are unable to break it off. The Chinese have a hospital for the
treatment of sick men who are without means. It is a charitable institution, and is
supported by voluntary subscriptions, contributed chiefly by the merchants. They have
a Chinese doctor of their own, and he does the work for charity. The patients are
cared for by the janitor of the hospital, and by their own friends. I have known of
some cases of recovery there, but they generally go there as a last resort, hence the large
percentage of deaths. . In the boarding houses the attention is given to the sick. Of
course those who have money secure better treatment than those who have none. It is
not the ease that any of the sick are neglected. They are cared for up to the ability of
their friends, and after death they are given a proper burial by the undertakers at the
friends' expense. I have never known a case of concealment of infectious disease among
them.

The Chinese have a very liigh regard for the marriage relationship. They usually
marry at from sixteen to twenty years of age. Many of those who are here are married
and have wives and children in China. A large proportion of them would bring their
families here, were it not for the unfriendly reception they got here during recent years,
which creates an unsettled feeling. Both spouses are, as a rule, faithful to each other,
and the wife stays with the husband's relations, the money sent home by the husband is
of use to them all. Often the family property has to be mortgaged to help the son to
come here, and the first thing he does is to trv to lift the mortgage. Divorce is un-
known in China, and it is a very uncommon thing for spouses to separate their rela-
tions on any ground. As a nation, the Chinese are very anxious that their children be
well educated. There has been no serious attempt in China to teach other than the
Chinese language until recently. Now English is largely taken up, as they are coming
more and more into contact with the English-speaking people. The desire to learn is
not confined to any one class. The labouring or farming class are as anxious for educa-
tion as the others, and they stand the same show to get it. The Chinese here are all
anxious to have their children taught the same as other children are taught here. Re-
garding prospects of assimilation, I do not tliink this will be easily or soon brought
about. I do not fa\()ur the idea of intermarriage, aa the modes of life of the races are
different in several respects, and it would not conduce to happiness. There are excep-
tional cases, such as where the parties have been brought up together or under similar
conditions, but this seldom happens. Assimilation can only come through those who
are b(5rn here, or at least are brought here in infancy, and are separated from the ideas
of the old land and the mode of life there. For work, the Chinese are not so physically
strong as the white people. This is due to the diet they take, but they are very patient
and persevering workers, and they are quick in action. It therefore follows, that for

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 237

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

lii;ht work they excel the white people, but for heavy work white men have the advan-
taj;e. Their wages vary considerably. In the canneries they get from sJiS to .$.50
a UKinth, but the month must consist of '26 days of 10 hours each of actual work. A.s
day labourers they get about fl per day. Chinese faiMuers and laundrymen usually
get from iJlO to ^'20 per month and their board and lodging. In' the cannery
biKirding-house the bosses supply the food and each is charged in proportion to the cost
of it. This will amount to from $9 to §10 per month for each. The rule in re-
gard to laundries applies to some other lines of light work. The boots and shoes and a
large proportion of the clothing used bj' Chinamen are made in Canada or the United
States. The silk goods and silk shoes come from China. They get some of their food
stutis from China, such as rice, which cannot be grown here. Rice is one
of the essential parts of their dietary. The Chinese are especially suited
for |such light work as in the laundries, cooks in hotels or camps and in
domestic service. They have been engaged in such work as long as I can rememl)er,
and always received with favour by the employers. They are quick in action, and ready
to do what they are told, and able to do a greater variety of work than a girl can do in
domestic service. In all my experience I have not heard of a Chinaman being indecent
in his relation to the household where lie works. As a I'ule they can be relied on and
are very attentive to duty.' The Chinese have been engaged largely in market gardening
in this province for over thirty-five years, and they have during all those years been the
chief source of supply of vegetables for our markets. They work late and early on their
ground, and have it in a high state of cultivation, hence they can make a good living olf
ten acres of land. They have been engaged in the fish-canning work since the beginning
of the industry over twenty-five years ago. They are thoroughly trained in all the
different inside departments. I cannot see how- they can be dispensed with, as so many
hands are required, and all need a special training for the work. As a fact it would
take j-ears to train a sufficient number of white men or children. These could better do
the W'ork now done by Indians, but of course the Indians would resent this inroad on
them. A great feature of their character is tlieir frugality. In fact this is one of the
chief complaints against them. They are trained to be frugal, and it seems to me a
virtue rather than a cause of offence. True it enables them to save money and to send
some of it to China to help their families there, but that is also a virtue. They are
willing also to undertake work at a small wage rather than be idle, and they are
very careful to live within their income, whether it be large or small, that they may
have some provision for idleness or illness. In this respect it seems to me, that they
are superior to many white men who will not work unless they get a high pay, and
are extravagant and even reckless in their expenditure of the money thev earn, who
never think of providing for the future, and have very little consifleration, even for
their own v/ives and families. To some extent this may be due to the privileges the
white men have of friendly and charitable societies to rely upon which are not avail-
able for the Chinaman. My opinion is, that if the Chinese were accorded the same
respect as others here, they would prove themselves to be good citizens, and thev would
settle in the land with their wives and families. Being thrifty they would save money,
and that money would be judiciously used in the countrv. Certainly, if their families
were here, they would have no occasion to send their money awav. It is no pleasure
for them to be separated from their families (in a good many cases for 1.5, 20 and 2-5
years). They come here to improve their circumstances, and they would only be too
glad to have their families to enjoy with them any improvements that are available.
Many of the chief opponents of the Chinese are comparatively new arrivals in the
proWnce, who have very little idea of the facts of the case. Some of these men are
unwilling to work themselves, and they misspend the earnings they do make, yet they
are eager to run down the Chinese who are willing to work and who do work hard,
and are very careful of their hard-earned money. Men are coming here from all parts
of the world and of all nationalities. As regards industry and thrift, the Chinese will
compare favourably with any of them. In mau_v respects they are greatly superior to
many of the men who come here during the canning season and claim the privilege of
being British subjects. Some of these are wild, lawless drinking men who are a discredit

238 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

to any community. During the canning season, though a large number of Chinese
congregate at Steveston and other points, they are all very orderly and obedient to the
law.s. Referring to cannery work, it is well known that the Chinese contractors each
year enter upon very onerous contracts with the canners for labour, and that under
these contracts large advance.s are made by the canners to the contractors before the
work. of the season begins. I do not know of one single instance where a Chinese
contractor failed to carry out his contract in full. I know of many instances where thev
have done it at a heavy loss to themselves, but they did it honourably. As regards
further immigration, I think the matter will always full}- regulate itself. The Chinese
merchants will always take care that too many do not come. It is a serious burden on
them if they come anc' do not get plenty of work. The head tax also presents a
substantial barrier against them coming in present circumstances. I do not favour the
existence of this tax. I think the same end could have been reached by diplomacy, as
was done by the United States. I quite approve of certain conditions being attached to
the granting of the franchise, such as are provided in the Natal Act, and that it be
applicable to Japanese, Galicians, Italians and others all alike. 1 do think, however,
that if the Chinese pay admission to this country, and if they have educational qualifica-
tions they should not only be allowed the privilege of the franchise, but be treated other-
wise as men and as British citizens. Already the Chinese have done good work in
placer mining, as they are content to work up claims deserted by the white miners, if
they yield even 81.25 to S2 per day. Thei'e are great areas of such properties, and
■ the reclamation of this gold is a valuable pi'ovincial asset, which would t)therwise remain
worthless. Besides mining this province has a vast territory, and many other undeveloped
resources. It has, therefore, opening for a very large industrial population, and as the
Chinese are, as alreafly stated, industrious, thrifty and persevering, and always amenable
to the laws of the land, as far as they understand them, they should make \'aluable
citizens and greatly aid in the development of this great country. This is particularly
true of the opening up of the agricultural land, as the Chinese are born agriculturists
and are accustomed to make the very best of the soil. Their experience should therefore
in agriculture be most valuable to enable this province to provide for its own wants as
well as to become an exporting country. In \'iew of the agitation being carried on by
politicians and professional agitators against the Chinese here, it is a mystery to me as
it must be to other observers that so many people in all ranks of life are so ready to
employ Chinamen to do their work. Many of them are thus emploj^ed, and some at
fairly high salaries, and this seems to nullify the allegations tliat they are either offensive
or detrimental to the development of the country. It is as a fact a valuable testimonial
of merit and proves that they are needed in the country.

In conclusion, my firm conviction is that the agitation which has arisen in connec-
tion with the orientals is more directed against the capitalists than against the Chinese
themselves. They seem to think that the capitalists are benefitting from the labour of
the orientals in a special manner ; whereas it seems to me that the orientals are
enabling the capitalists to carry on businesses which directly benefit all classes in the
community. It is true there are also those who seem to dislike the appearance of the
Chinamen and their oriental ways of living and dressing, and there is a large unthinking
class who condemn them because it has become a custom to do so. I have always urged
the Chinamen to adopt the British mode of dress and living ; and, judging from the
experience of the Japanese, I am satisfied the Chinese would greatly benefit if they
did so.

The Rev. Tom Chue Thorn, natiye Chinese missionary at New Westminster, also
prepared a statement, which will be found in chapter 5.

A number of Chinese merchants also expressed their opinions (m the questimi of
Chinese immigration, and which are given below.

Lee Cheong, president of the Chinese Board of Trade of Victoria, said :

Q. Are j-ou opposed to any further increase in the head tax? — A. No; I do not
approve of it ; I would rather have it taken off altogether.

Q. You are opposed to any further increase in the tax ? — A. Yes ; I would rather
have it taken off altogether, because we are a large nation and good friends with
England.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 239

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Lee Mon Kow, Chinese Interpreter at tlie Custom House, Victoria, said :

Q. If no more Chinese were allowed to come here, would it be better for those
here? — A. In a way it might be better ; but of course it would affect the commercial
business.

Q. If the tax were put up $200 more would it stop immigration entir-ely 1 — A. I
should say so ; the imniisrration would stop al togethei'. A tax of .§200 more would stop
thorn altogether.

Yip On, merchant, and Secretary of the Chinese Board of Trade, Vancouver, said :

Q. I suppose the Chinese do not want to be excluded from thi.s country? — A. No.

Q. Wouldn't that make wages better for those who are here 1 — A. I do not know ;
I do not think it has affected the merchant or the labourer ; the numbers here have not
been increasing and some have gone back.

Law A. Yam, secretary of the Chinese Board of Trade of New Westminster, said ;
I have some statement I would like to make to the Commission ; I know what I want
to .say, but I do not know that I can express myself very well in English. I want to
speak about the $100 poll-tax the Chinamen coming into Canada have to pay. The
Dominion Government used to collect a tax from 1886 down to January 1 last of $50
from each Chinaman coming into British Columbia ; they were going to allow a six
months' certificate to go home to China, and when they ran out they would have to pay
$.50 move. On January I, 1901, this tax was increased to |!I00. I know myself many
of other nations come into Canada and pay no head tax at all ; I think myself they
ought to put a tax on the t)tliers if they put it on the Chinese ; I do not understand
why there -should be a tax on ray countrymen and not on the others. You say, some
say, the reason why they tax the Chinese is, that too many Chinese come here and they
work too cheap, and that is the rea.son they try to stop them altogether ; I understand
the Imperial Government make a treaty with our Government, the Chinese Government,
to let all the Chinese who wish, go into any part of the British Empire, in commercial
work of any kind ; the British people can go into China and do the same thing, but they
say there are too many Chinese here, and that they work too cheap, and so people do
not like them much. They say the Chinese come into Canada and work too cheap and
hurt the countrj-. I say no, I believe the Chinese in this Canada is a benefit to the
country, and a benefit to the Government. What is the reason they benefit the
Government ; well, they paid $50 for each Chinaman who came in here, and from January
1 last the)' pay $100, and that benefits the Government, because the Government gets
the money from them, and the Chinese come in here to work for the benefit of the
country. I hope the Government will not further increase the tax on the Chinese.*

Kwong Wing Chong, merchant, of Nelson, said :

Q. Do j'ou think the .$100 tax plenty to keep out Chinese! — A. It keep out
Chinese all the same.

Q. Would v<.)u like to see plenty of Chinese coming to this country? — A. Me flon't
care.

Q. Suppose no more Chinese come you get better wages ? — A. That is better for me.

Q. Would you like that ? — A. Yes.

Q. Do you think a $.300 tax would keep them out altogether? — A. I cannot say.

Q. Do you think a $500 tax would keep them out altogether ?— A. The $500 "tax
in New South Wales keeps them out.

Q. You do not care whether they keep them out or not i — A. No.

Chong Lee, merchant, Kamloops, said :

Q. Do you think the .$100 tax too much ] — A. I think it is too much.

Q. Do you think lots of men would come here supposing there were no $100 tax ? —
A. They would come easier, I suppose.

Q. Do you think $100 keej)s lots of men out I — A. Yes, they wont come here and
pay $100.

SUMM.\RV.

The tVillowing facts have been made clear :

1. That the Chinese do not assimilate with the white race in British Coluniliiu, and
it would not be desirable if they did.

240 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

'2. That it is not desirable to give them the franchise, as they ai'e not and will not
become citizens in the proper sense of the term or an integral part of the nation.

3. Of the witnesses called less than half a score were in favour of unrestricted
immigration. Of the rest, a few took the view that the tax now imposed was, for the
present, at all events, sufficient, but the general concensus of opinion was in favour of
higher restriction, or total exclusion, a few favouring the Natal Act.

Reference must be had to the cliapters dealing with the various industries, so far
as the question concerns them ; but the undoubted fact remains that the great mass of
the white people of British Columbia of all professions, trades and callings, and the
Indians, are not favourable to the Chinese, and desire further immigration of the labour
class excluded. It is entii-elv erroneous to suppose, as has been in some quarters sug-
gested, that this -idew obtains mainly with the labouring classes. In the foregoing evi-
dence referred to in this chapter, it will be seen that comparatively few of that class
have been called, for the reason that their ^-iews were well known, and it was considered
especially desirable to bring out the views of other classes of citizens.

Of the 131 witnesses quoted in this chapter, 40 are employers, 44 professional men
and others, of whom 9 are ministers, 18 merchants, 14 farmers and market gardeners,
and 15 employees. Of the total number 77 were in favour of exclusion, 36 higher
restriction, 5 for the statu quo, 7 declined to express a definite opinion, and 6 in favour
of unrestricted immigration.

The following analysis will indicate more accurately the ^-iews of citizens. Of the
witnesses called, not quoted, even a larger proportion favoured exclusion or higher
restriction.

Of the employers 1 1 were in favour of exclusion, 1 5 of higher restriction, 4 leaving
the matter as at present with .flOO head tax, 4 in favour of no restriction, and 7 who
declined to express an opinion. Of the merchants, 1 1 favoured exclusion, 4 higher
restriction, 1 leaving the tax as at present, and 2 favoured unrestricted immigration.
Of the professional class and others not employers and employees, 35 fa\-oured exclusion,
4 higher restriction, 2 the present tax, and 2 unrestricted immigration. Of the farmers
and market gardeners, 8 favoured exclusion, 5 higher restriction, and 1 non-restriction.
Comparatively few farmers were called because they were represented by their various
societies, all of which favoured exclusion or higher restriction. The employees, skilled
and unskilled, fav(_)ured exclusion or higher restriction, and it may be noted that the
ministers were decided in their expression of their opinion, that the Chinese were an
undesirable class and, with one exception, favoured the prohibition of further immigra-
tion of the labouring class of Chinese.

CHAPTER XXIII.— TRADE WITH CHINA.

Our total trade with China in 1896 amounted to 61,690,456. It had fallen in
1900 to .«880,740.

The imports which in 1896 were $1,030,698 ($342,071 dutiable, $688,627 free) had
dropped in 1900 to !S624,433 ($211,730 dutiable, $412,703 free). The exports which
were .$659,758 in 1896, had fallen to $256,307 in 1900. Doubtless the war in China
may in part account for this, but an examination of the tables throws further light upon
the question.

In 1896 we imported $71,642 of sugar and mola.sses ; in 1900 only $8,143. In
1896 we imported $676,388 worth of tea, which had fallen in 1900 to $391,411. These
two items make nearly the whole difl'erence in imports. The other two principal items
of import are rice and opium, the first of which increased from $54,000 in 1896 to
$81,000 in 1900, and crude opium which dropped from $123,690 in 1896 to $1,541 in
1900. The falling off in tea and sugar was probably fully accounted for by larger
imports from other countries.

In 1896 we imported $221,000 worth of tea from British East India, in 1900,
$1,148,000 worth. We imported sugar in 1896 from the United States $244,000 ;. in

ON CHINESE AND JAFANESE IMMIGRATION 241

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

1900 over $1,000,000; in 1896 from Belgium a little less than .$400,000, and in 1900
over .$2,250,000. The two chief items of exports are cotton manufactures and lumber.
In 1896 we exported #.^49,000 worth of cotton anrl cotton manufactures, and ■'$88,000 of
lumber, making a total of %:6.37,000 out of a total export trade of .$6.59,000. In 1900
the cotton manufactures had fallen to .$101,000, and lumber had increased to .$116,000.
There was also a falling off in metals and their manufacture. Other exports slightly
increased. There is no export of wheat or flour, and the exports of the produce of the
farm does not amount to .$.5,000. The imports are more than double the exports, and
the goods admitted free are double of the dutiable goods.

The trade of the United States with China has an indirect bearing upon this
question. The imports from China into the United States have increased from
$22,000,000 in 1896 to nearly $27,000,000 in 1900, and the exports have increased from
a little less than $7,000,000" in 1896 to over $1.5,250,000 in 1900. The increase is
especially noticeable in two items, cotton and wheat flour. The exports of the former
increased from $300,000 in 1896 to $460,000 in 1900, and the export of wheat flour
increased from $45,000 in 1896 to $298,000 in 1900. The coast states are large
exporters of wheat. The wheat yield of Oregon alone is from 20 to 30 millions a year,
and California far exceeds that.

Lee Choong, a prominent Chinese merchant of Victoria, and president of the
Chinese Board of Trade, in reference to export trade, said : In British Columbia we
have not got any flour mills, and if we want to export flour we cannot get it. In regard
to price the flour is cheaper in the United States than in British Columbia. I would
like to export goods to China from British Columbia, but I see no way of doing it.

Q. Is the American flour cheaper than the flour from eastern Canada \ — A. United
States flour, I do not know why, is cheaper and better fiour than the flour which is
manufactured here.

Q. Then no matter whether Canada increases the tax or prohibits the Chinese
labourer coming in here from China, it would not make any difference to the trade
coming from China or going to China ? It would not increase or decrease the exports ?
— A. My opinion is this : If Chinese or other cheap labour comes in here and opened up
the country in farming and so on, and you get the flour a good deal cheaper, then we
could see large business between British Columbia and China, and that would increase
the trade.

Q. So in that way you would like to have the Chinese come in here and give us
cheap labour so as to improve the trade ? — A. Of course. I would rather have our
people come here and so have cheap labour and open up all the country. If you have
large farms all over, then the exports would improve.

This witness further said : Speaking of my own business, of the goods imported f I'om
China 97 per cent are sold to my own countrymen and 3 per cent sold to white people.

Thomas R. Smith, of the firm of Robert Ward ife Company, general commission
merchants, A'c, ic, said :

Q. Do you look forward to the development of trade between China and Canada \
—A. Yes.

Q. And Japan '\ — A. Yes. It is only a question of time when development will
come about, but in what way it is cUtKcult to explain. The Chinese in the course of
time will require more European goods, and the Japanese are very progressive. The
Japanese always seem to be open to cultivate trade relations here, and of course steam-
boat facilities will increase.

Q. Would the exclusion of Chinese or .Japanese prevent the rapid development of
trade between China and Canada ? — A. Well, so few Chinese are here, such a small
fragment of the population of China is here, it would not make much difference. I do
not think it will have any effect in regard to trade, the exclusion of the Chinese.

Q. Would a restriction upon Japanese prevent trade between the two countries ?
A. I do not think it would have any effect.

Robert James Skinner, provincial timber inspector, Vancouver, said :

Q. Would restriction, increased restriction or exclusion of the Chinese and .Japanese
tend to curtail any trade (lumber), any possible trade between these countries and here %
— A. I think it would.
54—16

242 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Q. Is the trade of these countries at the present time sufficient to keep a large number
of men employed in connection with the lumber mills in British Columbia ? — A. It
would keep a certain number employed : I would not say a large number.

Edmund James Palmer, manager of the Victoria Lumber Companj' at Chemainus,
the largest exporting mill in British Columbia, referring to the eti'ect of the exclusion
Act on American trade, said : At the time they (the United States) had trouble with
the Chinese the export of lumber did not amount to more than fifteen million feet, and
to-day that has increasetl to two hundred million feet. I think exclusion would do no
harm ; it would be a great benefit. I am in favour of tt>tal exclusion. I think we
have enough of the Chinese here now.

Hugh B. Gilmour, member of the Local Legislature for Vancouver, referring to the
Canadian Pacific steamship hne, said : I might explain that matter shortly. The
Canadian Pacific Railway does not live on the Chinese and Japanese coming to British
Columbia ; the biggest travel is going to another country. A large number of Chinese
come here by steamers and are going through in bond to other countries. I take it from
the number of Chinese in this countiy, if they had not been brought here, that would
not have stopped the steamers from running, but I think we would be better off without
the line of steamers running than to give away our country to the Chinese and Japanese.
I do not claim that Chinese passenger traffic is necessary for the success of any
.steamship line.

Q. Has the Exclusion Act had the effect of driving the steamship lines out of busi-
ness in San Francisco ? — A. Xo, the lines have increased.

A. E. McPhillips, member of the Legislature for Victoria, said : As a member of
the Legislature I was in favour of increasing the per capita tax on Chinese to $500. I
do not think it would affect the interests of the Dominion at large in the trade with
China. I think most of that trade has been produced or brought about by our own
people or European people, residents in China, and it would not be affected in any way
by restriction or exclusion of the labouring classes of either China or Japan. I do not
think that Japanese trade would be affected by preventing Japanese inunigration.

At present British Columbia has not much to offer in the way of flour for exporta-
tion, but I consider as time goes on we will have a large amount of flour to export of a
class that seems to command trade in the Orient, made from softer wheat than that of
-the North-west. From millers I understand that they use flour made in Oregon and
"Washington, and that is made from soft wheat. They have not been educated up to
the Hungarian flour made from hard fife wheat. I would allow free intercourse of the
-merchants and educated classes of Japan.

Richard Marpole, superintendent of the Coast Di\ision of the C. P. R., said : I
cannot speak of the extent of the trade that exists at present between Canada and
China and Japan ; the possibilities are immense. Take our steamship service and today
we have two extra steamers in commission. The trade is so increasing that it will ne-
cessitate an increase in the number of our ships, which I hope to see shortly. The fact
that Mr. Hill of the Great Northern is going to put on much larger steamers as freight
carriers is an answer to that question. I think the traffic is reciprocal to a great extent.

Q. You spoke about the business being on the increase in the steamers and so on
— do you think it would have a tendency to stop the steamship lines if there were no
Chinese or Japanese here * — A. The freight is more to us than the men.

Truman Smith Baxter, ex-alderman of Vancouver, said : There is one matter I
would like to mention ; it is claimed that if we stop this immigration here of Chinese or
Japanese that trade will sufter. The United States passed an Exclusion Act, I think it
was the year 1893, to keep the Chinese out of the United States. I will give you the
result of their trade until 1 897, which is the last I could get. My figures are taken from
the Commercial Bulletin, published by the Treasury Department Bureau of Statistics
for the United States, and signed by A. T. Austin, chief of the Bureau of Statistics.

In 1893 the United States exported to China goods to the value of $3,900,000 : in
1894, 15,862,000 ; in 1895 the exports were reduced to $3,603,000, but that was at the
time that the Chinese and Japanese war was going on. In 1896 the United States ex-
ported to China goods worth $6,921,000 and in 1897 the exports rose in value to $11,-

O.Y CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 243

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

'924,000. So that the trade grew from 1893 to 1897 from something like four million
dollars to twelve million dollars. This I think shows that it is not likely that the trade
with China at least will Ije hurt by the brinj;ing into force of the Exclusion Act.

Richard Hentv Alexander, manager of the Hastings Lumber Mill, the second largest
exporting lumber mill in British Columbia, said : Since the trouble in China very little
lumber has gone from this coast there. If the trouble was settled in China there would be
a large market there indeed. We ship principally rough lumber. Trade with Japan is
increasing. As their lumber gets scarce I think it is likely to increase. Both the trade
with China and Japan are well worth cultivating. There is less competition in China
and .Japan than in anv of the other countries. The only competition we have there is
with our friends on Puget Sound. The mills here do not ship as much lumber as the
mills on Puget Sound.

George Owen Buchanan, sawmill owner, Kaslo, said : I think exclusion would react
against us in China. I think we should cultivate the friendship of China and Japan as
we are bound to have large dealings with them later. We have about 25,000 tons of
lead to go in, which would have to be refined here. The market for the lead in China
and Japan is not as large as is generally supposed ; it is about 20,000 tons per annum.
With the opening up of China consumption of lead is liable to increase rapidly, also of
lumber. The chief competitor of Canada in China is Australia. United States is also
a competitor. I have observed the increase of trade between the United States and
China. Thought the restrictive measure passed by the United States had resulted in
ill-feeling between China and United States. Present indications are that relations
between United States and China are as friendly as that country's relations with any
other power.

AMERICAN EVIDENCE.

J. W. Clise, president of the Chamber of Commerce, Seattle, Washington, said :

Q. Do you think the law of e.vclusion has interfered with your intercourse
with China ? — A. Not at all. I understand it is against the policy of the Chinese Em-
pire to allow them to come here. They come here from Hong Kong. Our ships do not
run to China. They do not call at Shanghai or any other Chinese port.

Q. It has never been argued or stated here then in regard to your commercial
interests that this law of exclusion was injurious to your trade ? — A. Oh, no, it has not
been.

Q. I suppose with the end of this war in China the trade with China will largely
increase ? — A. Yes. A great many things enter into our trade with China. The
volume of trade is largely increased and is continuing to increase. Flour is the chief
thing we send there. We send about 100,000 barrels of flour per month to China and
Japan ; we send that largely from Oregon and California.

Q. How far east of the Rockies does the flour come from ? — A. It is Washington
flour we ship. Our flour is cheaper than that of the Mississippi Valley.

Q. Do you find any opinion or suggestion that trade would have been larger but
for the Exclusion Act ? — A. Not at all. Trade has grown and we are willing to let it
alone. I do not think there is any strong feeling amongst the Chinese either way, and
I do not think the exclusion of the Japanese would injure trade, when the exclusion of
the Chinese did ncjt and does not.

Q. I suppose that is quite an important factor in arranging with the Japanese ? —
A. Yes, I think ,so.

Q. There is a large commerce between Puget Sound and China ? — A. About five
millions or six million dollars in a year. But something has to be said in favour of the
Chinese ; we do not get a fair idea from the Chinese here of the Chinese in general. In
Japan we get a better class of people, and they come here to learn our ways and enter
into our trade and everything.

Theodore Ludgate, sawmill owner, Seattle, said :

Q. Is the export (lumber) business in a satisfactory shape ? — A. We find it very
good. I am speaking of the export business to Hong Kon^ and Japan. Vessels are
54— 16i

244 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

coming here all the time, and another steamship company is going to build docks just
outside of here. The market in Japan is impro^-ing for good lumber, but not much to
speak of.

Q. Do you think it (exclusion) would interfere with the extent of trade likely to
develop between this country and Japan? — A. I do not think it would have much
influence. All the influence would be on the politicians of this country, and they
would be almost entirelv ruled by tlie labour organizations, and exclusion would lie
brought about in some way or other.

S. E. Masten, secretary of the Board of Trade and Commerce, Portland, Oregon,
said :

Q. I want to ask vou whether the introduction of the Exclusion Act had any effect
on business ? — A. I do not think so. I do not think that any action that has ever been
taken against the Chinese here has ever affected our trade in any way. I am only
speaking from my own personal observations. I know it has never interfered with our
business.

H. S. Rowe, mayor of Portland, Oregon, said :

Q. Do you think the introduction of the law of restriction and that of exclusion in
any wav interfered with your trade with China to any appreciable extent ! — A. Xot at
all. I have resided here for many years, and my observation is that the trade with China
has increased rapidly since the enforcement of the Exclusion Act.

T. ]\I. Crawford, labour agent. Portland, Oregon, said : The Japanese have three
steamers I'unning here. There are other lines running to Japan, the Occidental and
Oriental, that is a United States line ; and there is the Pacific Mail Line, that belongs
to the Southern Railway ; and the Santa Fee railway have steamers running over there,
and there are a great many tramp steamers.

Henry Fortman, president of the Alaska Packers' Association, San Francisco, said :
A few of our canned salmon go to China and Japan.

Q. The trade of this country with Japan is extending \ — A. Yes, it is extending
very materially.

Q. Much more rapidly tliau the trade with China \ — A. I do not think so. I think
the trade with China is increasing more rapidly than our trade with Japan.

Q. The Exclusion Act does not prevent trade increasing ? — A. No ; they buy a
great many American goods in China.

SUMMARY.

. There are several facts disclosed in regard to the trade with China tliat have an
important bearing upon this question.

1 . Canada's total trade with China in 1 896, was :

Imports §1,030,698

Exports 659,758

Total $1,690,456

1900 Imports 6-24,4.33

Exports 256,307

$880,740

2. The falling off in imports relates chiefly to two items — sugar and molasses and
tea. The falling off in exports is principally covered by one item — cotton and cotton
manufactures.

3. It will be noticed tliat imports are more tlian double the exports and the goods
admitted free are double the dutiable goods.

4. Notwithstanding that an Exclusion Act has been in force for many years in the
United States, their trade with China has largely increased. The increase in exports is
noticable especially in two items — cotton and wheat flour. The opinion of a number of
prominent Americans, including the president of the Chamber of Commerce, Seattle,

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 245

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

the secretary of the Board of Trade and Coiniuerce, Portland, and the mayor of Port-
land, was that the Exclusion Act has not interfered with tlie trade of the United
States with China.

•5. Having regard to the eviden<;e adiluced before us and the experience of the
United States in this regard we are of tlie opinion that further restriction or exclusion
will not appreciablv aft'ect the ti'ade of Canada with China.

CHAPTER XXIV.— ANTI-CHINESE LEGISLATION ELSEWHERE.

It is a fact worthy of consideration in dealing with this question that in other
countries to which the Chinese have emigrated, their presence has given rise to dissatis-
faction, resistance and agitation for their exclusion, and as far as possible a policy of
restriction and exclusion has been adopted.

The growth of this sentiment and consequent legislation in the United States,
Australia, New England and Tasmania is outlined in this chapter.

THE UN'ITED STATES.

In 1876 a joint committee of the Senate and House of Representatives was appoint-
ed to investigate the character, extent and eliect of Chinese immigration. A very ful
investigation was made by this committee (full quotations from the evidence of which
were given by the Canadian Chinese Commission of 1S84).

The following quotations from the majority report will show the result arrived at.

In the testimony will be found that of lawyers, doctors, merchants, divines, judges
and others, that the apparent prosperity derived from the presence of Chinese is decep-
tive and unwholesome, ruinous to our labouring classes, promotive of caste and dangerous
to free institutions. That the Chinese have reduced wages to what would be starvation
prices for white men and women, and engrossed so much of the labour in the various
callings, that there is a lack of employment for whites, the young men are growing up in
idleness, while young women, willing to work, are compelled to resort to doubtful means
of support. The hardships resulting from these causes bear with a special weight upon
women. It is also shown that this distinctive competition in some branches of labour
operates as a continual menace and inspires fears that the establishment of these ruin-
oush- low wages will extend to all emplo}'ments and degrade all working people to the
abject condition of a servile class. From this cause, amongst others, has sprung up a
bitterly hostile feeling toward the Chinese.

As the safety of Republican institutions requires that the exercise of the franchise
shall be only by those who have a love and appreciation for our institutions, and this
rule excludes the great mass of the Chinese from the ballot as a necessary means to
public safety, yet the application of the rule depjrives them of the only adequate protec-
tion M-hich can exist in a republic for the security of any distinctive large class or persons.
An indigestible mass in the community, distinctive in language, pagan in religion, inferior
in mental and moral qualities, and all peculiarities, is an undesirable element in a
republic, but it becomes especially so if political power is placed in its hands.

They can subsist where the American would starve. They can work for wages
which will not furnish the barest necessities of life for an American. They make their
way in California as they have in the Islands of the Sea, not by superior force of virtue
or even industry, although they are as a rule indlistrious, but by revolting characteris-
tics and by dispensing with what have become necessities in modern civilization. To
-compete with them and expel them, the American must come down to their level or
below them, must work so cheaply that the Chinese cannot compete with him, for in the
contest for subsistence he that can subsist upon the least lasts the longest.

The jiresence of the Chinese discourages and retards white immigration to the
Pacific States. This clearly appeared in evidence and probably arises from their

246 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

monopoly of farm and mechanical work through the low price of their labour, making
subsistence difficult to procure by the poorer cla.sses of immigrants.

From all the facts that they have gathered bearing upon the matter, stating fairly
the testimony for and against the Chinese, the committee believe that free institu-
tions founded upon free schools and intelligence can only be maintained where
based t)n intelligent and adequately paid labour. Adequate wages are needed to give
self respect to the labourer and the means of education to his children. Family life is a
great safeguard to our political institutions. Chinese innnigration involves sordid
■wages, no public schools, and the absence of the family. We speak of the Chinese as
they have exliibited themselves on the Pacific Coast for twenty-five years past, and as
they are there at the present time. Thev show- few i)f the characteristics-of a desirable
population and many to be deprecated by any patriot. This problem is too important
to be treated with indiffei'enee. Congress should solve it, having due regard to any
rights already accrued under existing treaties and to humanity ; but it must be solved
in the judgment of the committee, unless our Pacific possessions are to be ultimately
given over to a race alien in all its tendencies, which will make of it practically pro-
vinces of China rather than States of the Union. The committee reconmiend that
measures be taken by the Executive, hioking toward a modification of the existing
treaty with China, conforming it to strictly commercial purposes, and that Congress
legislate to restrain the great influx of Asiatics to this country. It is not believed that
either of these measures would be looked upon with dissatisfaction by the Chinese
Government. Whether this is so or not, a duty is owing to the Pacific States and terri-
tories which are suffering under a terrible scourge, but are patiently waiting for relief
from Congress.

Senator Oliver P. Morton, the chairman of the committee, made a minority report
in which he quotes Articles 5, 6 and 7 of the United States treaty of China concluded
in 1868, commonly known as the Burlingame Treaty, and reached the conclusion that
labour must needs be free, and have complete protection, and be left open to competi-
tion. He says: Labour does not require that a price should be fixed by a law or that
men who live cheaply, and can work for lower wages shall for that reason be kept out
of the country.

In 1878 the committee of the senate of California issued an address to the people
of tlie United States upon the social, moral and political effect of Chinese immigration.
(This lengthy document will be found in State Papers, 45 Congress, 1st Session, Mis.
Doc, No. 9.)

After setting forth their view of the then conditions, conclude their address as
follows :

In view of these facts thousands of our people are beginning to feel a settled ex-
asperation, a profound sense of dissatisfaction with the situation. Hitherto this feeling
has been restrained, and the Chinese have had the full protection of our laws. It is
the part of wisdom to anticipate the day when patience may cease and by wise
legislation avert its evils. Impending difficulties of this character should not in this
advanced age be left to the chance arbitrament of force. These are questions which
ought to be solved by the statesman and philanthropist and not by the soldier.

In 1878 a committee of congress on education and labour made a report on educa-
tion and labour (see No. 3 United States Documents, relating to immigration), in which
they find :

1. That the presence of tlie Chinese has had a tendency to degrade and dishonour
labour.

2. Their personal habits, peculiar institutions and lax morals render them un-
desirable members of society.

3. They cannot and will not assimilate with our people, but remain unalterably
aliens in habits, morals, politics and aspirations.

The principal facts upon which these three propositions rest will be briefly con-
sidered :

I. The Chinese labourer, in some respects, is desiraVjle. He is frugal, tlirifty,
patient, cheerful and obedient. He readily learns his trade and expertly perfoiuns any

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 24?

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

species cif light work. Chinese cheap labour lias worked great national benefit to-
California in its early history, digging its canals, delving in its mines, reclaiming its.
tule-lands, building its railroads, and in various other ways contributing to the rapid
development of its wonderful natural resources. If, therefore, moneymaking were the
only question involved in this contest between the American and Chinese races, it would
in its industrial or labour phase be promptly decided in favour of the latter. The
material advantages of this kind of labour, however, sink into insignificance when com-
pared with the personal considerations at stake — the comfort, the self respect and decent,
honourable living of the labourer himself.

The Chinese labourer does not come up to the American standard of industry.
The central idea of our system is, that the labourer shall possess courage, self-respect and
independence. To do this he must have a home. Home is the mould in which societv
is cast. There the habits are formed wliich give character. There the zest and wakeful
interest of living centre. There the fires of patriotism are kindled. There free institu-
tions find their source and inspiration.

The Chinese who come to this countrv have no homes. The)' have neither home-
feelings nor home interests in any true acceptation of the words. With the conditions
of their mode of life they never can have homes. They are willing to work for less wages
than will secure homes or comfortably support white labour. In their own country
they work patiently and obediently during twelve or thirteen hours for less than one-
tenth of what the poorest class of American workingmen receive. In the Pacific States
they are willing to work for about one-half the price paid to American operatives. They
are able to live upon rice, tea and dried fish, costing upon an average from 20 to .30 cents
per day. Underclothing is a luxury almost unknown to them. What clothing they
wear is of the cheapest, simplest and coarsest character. They bring with them neither
wives, families nor children. One hundred Chinese will occupv a room which, if sub-
divided, would not accommodate five American workingmen with their families. In
such a small space they are packed like sardines in a box, and here they both sleep, eat
and cook. Such a place does not deserve the name of home. No tender and loving
interests cluster around it and dull habit alone endears it to them. An enlightened
statesmanship would suggest that no material advantages, however great, arising from
Chinese frugality and industry, can compensate for the loss of the homes, the comforts
and the appliances of personal ci\alization, which have always been enjoyed by the
labouring classes of America, and from which springs that spirit of self-respect and
manly independence which is the highest result and best security of our political .system.

II. Another and more serious objection urged against the Chinese is that their
personal and moral habits make them undesirable members of society. The crowded
condition in which they live renders the observance of hygienic laws and sanitary regu-
lations almost an impossibility. Neatness and cleanliness is the exception. The air of
their apartments is filled with noisome smells and pestilential vapours, threatening
disease and death. Pi'opertv occupied by them is consequently lessened in value and
the locality itself is avoided by the white population.

Not only their personal habit but their moral ideas, methods and institutions
directly antagonize our own. What we love they hate, what we admire they despise,
what we regard as vices they practice as virtues or tolerate as necessities.

The religious ideas even of the higher and titled classes in China are pre-eminently
wretched, their superstitions numerous and ludicrous, their educational system exceed-
ingly defective, and their ci\'ilization eflfete and decaying. .-Vniong the labouring or
' coolie ' classes the grade ol morals is very low. One illustration of this is seen in their
treatment of woman. Her birth is commonly regarded as a calamity. If not destroyed,
which is not unusual, she is regarded as a slave and suflers privation, contempt and
degradation from the cradle to the tomb. Instances are frequent of the sale for debt by
parents of their daughters and by husbands of their wives, and that too for the worst
purposes. Infanticide of girls is practised to some degree in all parts of the empire, and
in some sections to an alarming extent. Concubinage is a recognized institution. The
sanctity and obligation of an oath are disregarded, and the torture is often employed to
extort the truth.

248 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Such are some of the fharacteristics of the class from which nine-tenths of our
immigrants come. Respectable peisons are deterred both by law and prejudice, and
as a rule, only the most indigent and desperate consent to leave their native country.
The female immigrants are bought and sold like chattels and practice the most revolting
Trices and immorality. Born and brought up under these heathenish influences, with
these low ideas of law and virtue, coming to our country for the sole purpose of making
monej', without homes and families, without domestic affections or interests ; with no
high incitements to duty or strong dissuasives from wrong doing ; with no adequate
sense of special obligation : with no property to pay a fine, and with no fear of imprison-
ment, since it brings no greater discomfort or confinement than his usual mode of life ;
with blunted or erroneous perceptions, gi-oveling thoughts, gross passions, parsimonious
and degrading habits, the Chinaman in America cannot be considered a desirable mem-
ber of society either from a physical or moral standpoint.

III. — The third and principal objection, however, to the Chinese is the fact that
they do not assimilate with our people, but remain a distinct and alien element. In
this respect they differ from all other voluntary immigrants. The German, the Irishman,
the Frenchman, have sought our country as a permanent home for themselves and their
posterity. Promptly and cheerfullj- adopting our habits, customs and political institu-
tions, devoted to our people, to our government and the laws, they speedily become our
worthiest and thriftiest citizens, vindicating in the council chambers of the nation their
knowledge of our political principles, and illustrating upon every battlefield where
liberty has been attacked the patriotism which such knowledge inspires.

It is not so with the Chinese. They have been in this country over a quarter of a
century. Tlieir employment as house servants and labourers has brouglit them into
close and immediate contact with our people, but no change in them has been produced.
What they ^^•ere when they came here they are to-day — the same in dress, the same in
disposition, the same in language, the same in religion, the same in political feeling.
They indicate no desire, either by word oi- action, to become identified with us. They
came to us not because they were dissatisfied with the social or political institutions of
their own country, but because they believed they could better their condition in life.
To make money was their sole object. Even when they have accomplished this they do not
invest their earnings in land or homesteads, but return with them to their native China.
They come with no desire or purpose to make this their permanent home. So strong is
their feeling in this respect that the poorest labourers stipulate, as a jaart of the eon-
tract by which they sell their services, that their dead bodies shall be carried back to
China, and thousands have been thus exported. They have no conception of our judicial
or legislati\e system. They cannot be relied upon to perform military duty. They are
incompetent as jurymen. Indeed, the only purpose in society for which they are avail-
able is to perform manual labour. They bring \\ith them neither wives nor families,
nor do thev intermarry with the resident population. They have an inferior intelligence
and a different civilization from our own. Mentally, morally, physically, socially and
politicall)' they have remained a distinct and antagonistic race.

Nor, in view of their strong national prejudices, is there any liope that the future
will be different. Instances are numerous where an inferior race has been absorbed
and improved by a superior one, but the condition precedent to such a result is the
acknowledgment on the part of the lower race of such inferiority. Nations, as well as
individuals, must conclude that they need help, before they are willing to ask or receive
it. The Chinese have n(_)t and never will, come to such a conclusion. Their inordinate
vanity leads them to believe their country to be the center of the terrestrial system, and
they therefore call it the ' midland or central nation.' They boast a ci\'ilization which
antedates the birth of Christ ; they point with pride to a philosopher, Confucius, whose
maxims, as the perfection of wisdom, have become their code of laws. They obey a
government which, in their faitli, is heaven-descended — an absolute despotism, vast, awful,
and impressi\e, whose tremendous and mysterious power regulates their lives or decrees
their death, and under which liberty is an unknown idea.

Thus intrenched behind national prejudices, they are impregnable against all influ-
ences, and remain a great, united class, distinct from us in colour, in size, in features, in

ox CHIXESE AXD JAPAXESE IMMIdRATIOX 249

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

dress, in language, in customs, in habits, and in social peculiarities. A nation to be
strong should be homogeneous. All the elements that attach themselves to its society
.sliould be assimilated rapidly into one harmonious and congruous whole. It is neither
possible nor desirable for two distinct races to live harmoniously in the sgme society and
under the same government. If this single jSroposition be true, the conclusion is sound,
that Chinese immigration should be restricted or prohibited. This conclusion, however,
is strengthened by the facts already stated, showing its evil effects upon the industrial
and social interests of our people.

But admitting this, the mode of securing it demands careful consideration. The
great majority of the immigrants embark from the port of Hong Kong, a British colony.
A change or abrcigation of our present treaty with China will not, therefore, check the
evil. The joint action of both Cliina and Great Britain will alone be effective. In view
of the fact that the well-known policy of the Chinese Government is adverse to the
emigration of its citizens, and that Great Britain has already, without offence to China,
absolutely prohibited inmiigration to several of her colonies, it is believed that similar
action on our part will not destroy or disturb the friendly commercial relations now
existing. But were it otherwise, the harmony and perpetuity of our social and political
institutions cannot be weighed in the same balance with mere material or commercial
advantages.

Your committee, thei'efore, unanimously recommend that immediate correspondence
be opened upon this subject by our government with the Governments of China and
Great Britain, and present, accompanying this report, a joint resolution to that effect.

Legislative action was taken by Congress in 1879 by an Act to restrict the immi-
gration of Chinese into the United States, the effect of which was to limit the number
to fifteen for each vessel entering any port of the United .States, with further provisions
for effecting the object of the Act. This Act was, however, on March 1, 1879,
vetoed by the President. (.Sec No. 7 U.S. Documents relating to immigration above
referred to).

By treaty concluded November 17, 1880, and duly ratified and proclaimed Octo-
ber -5, 1881, between the United States and China, it is provided by Article 1, that
whenever in the opinion of the Government of the United States the coming of Cliinese
labourers to the United States, or their residence therein affects or threatens to affect
the interests of that country, or to endanger the good order of the said country, or of
any locality within the territory thereof, the Government of China agrees that the
Go\'ernment of the United States maj' regulate, limit or suspend such coming or resi-
dence, but may not absolutely prohibit it. The limitation or suspension shall be reason-
able and shall apply only to Chinese who may go to the United States as labourers,
other classes not being included in the limitations. Legislation taken in regard to
Chinese labourers will be of such a character only as is necessary to enforce the regula-
tion, limitation or suspension of immigration and emigrants shall not be subject to
' personal mal-treatement or abuse.'

Article 2 expressly excludes teachers, students and merchants, together with their
body and household servants, and Chinese labourers who were then in the United
States from the effect of the treaty.

Article .3 provides protection for Chinese permanently or temporarily residing in
the United States. (See U. S. compilation of treaties in force, page 118.)

In 1882 an Act of Congress was passed giving effect to the above treaty. This
Act was amended in 1884, which provides. Section 1, that from and after the expiration
of ninety days next after the passage of this Act, and until the expiration of ten years
next after the passage of this Act, the coming of Chinese labourers to the United States
sluiU be, and the same is hereby suspended, and during such suspension it shall not be
lawful for any Chinese labourer to come, or having so come after the expiration of the
said ninety days, to remain within the United States.

Section 2 impo.ses a penalty of S.500 upon the master of any vessel who shall know-
ingly bi-ing within the United States on such vessel any Chinese labourer, and further
provides that such master of a vessel may be also imprisoned for a term not exceeding
one year.

250 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Section 3 exempts labourei's then in the United States, and the Act makes further
])rovision for giWng full eSeet to this la\\'. (See United States laws. Exclusion of
Chinese, page 8, 22nd Stat, page 58, 23rd Stat., page 115.)

In 1888 an Act was passed proliibiting the immigration of Chinese labourers 'from
anil after the date of the exchange of ratifications of the pending treaty between the
United States and the Emperor of China.' {25th Stat., page 476.)

It will be observed that this Act declared it unlawful for any Chinese person,
whether a subject of China or any other power, to enter the United States except as
therein provided.

In the same year (1888) a further act was passed prohibiting the return of anv
Chinese labourer who at any time theretofore had been or then, or thereafter might be
a resident A\ithin the United States, and wlio had not returned Ijefore the passage of the
Act. (25th Stat., page 504.)

In 1892 a further Act was passed continuing all laws then in force, regulating the
coming into the United States of Chinese pei'sons for a period of ten years from the
passage of the Act, and making provisions for deportation for breach of the law. (27th
Stat., page 25.)

In 1892 a further Act was passed declaring that resident labourers must register
and making further provisions therefor. (28th Stat., page 7.)

In 1894 the Act was further amended by declaring that in every case where an
alien is excluded from admission into the United States under any law or treaty now
existing or hereafter made, the decision of the appropriate immigration or customs
officers, if adverse to the admission of such alien, shall be final, unless reversed on appeal
to the Secretary of the Treasury. (28th Stat., page 390.)

fXITED STATES EXCLUSION TREATY AND LAWS AFFECTING CHINESE IMMIGRATION.

By treaty between the Government of the United States and the Government of
China, dated March 17, A. D. 1894, and ratified December 7, 1894, it is declared as
follows : —

Article 1. The high contracting parties agree that for a period of ten years, begin-
ning with the date of the exchange of the ratification of this convention, the coming,
except under the conditions hereinafter specified, of Cliinese labourers to the United
States shall be absolutely prohibited.

Article 2 provides for the return of registered Chinese labourers under certain
conditions and limitations.

Article 3 declares : That the provisions of this Convention shall not affect the right
at present enjoved of Chinese subjects being officials, teachers, students, merchants or
travellers, for curiosity or pleasure, but not labourers, coming to the United States and
residing therein. To entitle such Chinese subjects as above described to admission into
the United States thev mav produce a certificate from their Government, or tlie Govern-
ment where they last resided Wsed by the diplomatic or consular representative of the
United States in the country or port whence they depart. And provision is also made
for transit of labourers across the territory of the United States in the course of their
journey to or from other countries, subject to such regulations as may be necessary to
prevent said privilege of transit fi'om being abused.

Article 4 provides that Chinese labourers or Chinese of any other class either per-
manently or temporarily residing in the United States .shall have for the protection of
their persons ancl property, all rights that are gi%en by the laws of the United States to
citizens of the most favoured nation, exceptitig the right to become naturalized citizens.

Pro\dsion is also made by Article 5, for the registration of resident labourers, re-
ports to be furnished to the Chinese Government.

Article G of the Convention declares that the treaty shall remain in force for ten
vears from the date of ratification, and if six months before the expiration of the said
period of ten vears, neither Government shall have formally given notice of its final
termination to the other, it shall remain in full force for anotiier period of ten years.

ON CHINESE A XT) JAPANESE IMMIURATIoy 251

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The above treaty was the result of nearly twenty years' agitation, legislation and
negotiation, a short account of which will be found instructive.

By a joint resolution of July 7, 1898, it was declared that there shall be no further
immigration of Chinese into the Hawaiian Islands, except upon such conditions as are
now, or may hereafter be allowed by the law of the United States, and no Chinese by
reason of anything herein contained shall be allowed to enter the United States from the
Hawaiian Islands. (See U. S. Stat. 1897-98, page 7-51.)

The above Acts and Treaties with tiie regulations to enforce the same, c(jnstitute
the present law of the United States with respect to Chinese Immigration.

In the RejKirt of the Philippine Commission, 1900, Volume 2, page 432, there is a
memorandum on the Chinese in the Philippines, and coming from a source so eminent
and trustworthy deser\-es special mention. (For full report see Appendix.)

We quote : The principle of political economy is well known, which lays down the
I'ule that in order for a country to obtain advantages from immigration the immigrants
should bring in capital, new industries, or superior knowledge to perfect industries al-
ready in existence, or at least that such inmiigrants should apply their energies to pur-
suits productive of gain, not only to the immigrants themselves, but to society in general
in the country in which they have established themselves, or that they finally become
assimilated with the people of the country, thus giving, although indirectly, stimulus to
certain professions and industries whose progress is a consequence of the increase of the
number of the inhabitants of the town. Chinese in coming to the Philippines do not
comply with any of the conditions of this well-known condition of political economy,
which are desirable points to be looked for in immigrants. Why then should they be
allowed to immigrate in such great numbers when their presence in the Philippines is not
a guarantee of prosperity and progress for the rest of the inhabitants of the Archipelago ?
And again, 'the Chinese are one of the principal causes of the connnercial and industrial
backwardness of the Archipelago. It is impossible here, on account of the competition
which they make, to attain a position in the middle class of society. This class is a
protector and pi'omoter of great enterprises which do not promise immediate dividends
and which must be perfected by means of shares which represent a great capital, that
is to say, by the collection of the funds of many contributors.' And further, ' It is the
custom of the Chinese to consume as far as the necessaries of life are concerned, the
food, clothing and other articles which they import from their own country for this
purpose.'

AUSTRALIA.

The Australian colonies prior to the formation of their present connnon wealth had
passed restrictive legislation against the Chinese.

Victoria, as early as 18.55, passed a law imposing a tax of £10 for all Chinese
arriving by ship, and limiting the number to one to eveiy ten tons of the ships burthen,
and imposing a penalty upon the master of the vessel of £10 for each passenger so car-
ried in excess.

In 1857 k residence license of £1 was imposed, which was increased to £4 in 1859.

In 1862 provisions relating to residence fees were repealed.

In 1881 Victoria passed a new Act, limiting the number of Chinese to one to every
one hundred tons of the ship's burthen, and imposing a penalty of £100 for breach of
the law, and imposing a tax of £10 for each innnigrant ai-i-i\ing by vessel.

Similar legislation was passed by Queensland, South Australia, New South Wales,
New Zealand, Western Australia and Tasmania.

At a meeting of representatives from the flifterent Austi-alian governments, held at
Sj'dney in the month of June, 1888, it was, amongst other things, resolved that it was
desirable that the laws of the various Australian colonies for the restriction of Chinese
immigration should be assimilated upon a basis at such meeting appro\'ed. The resolu-
tions arri\ed at liy the conference, and which have been embodied in a draft Bill, areas
follows :

252 REPOUT OF HOTAL cOyiMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A, 1902

1. That in the opiniun i)f this conference, the further restriction of Chinese immi-
gration is esential to the welfare of tlie people of Australasia.

2. That this conference is of opinion that the desired restriction can best be secured
through the diplomatic action of the Imperial Government and by uniform Australasian
legislation.

3. That thi.s conference resolves to consider joint representation to the Imperial
Government for the purpose of obtaining the desired diplomatic action.

4. That this conference is of opinion that the desired Australasian legislation should
contain the following provisions :

(1.) That it shall apply to all Chinese, with specified exceptions.

(2.) That the restriction should be by limitation of the number of Chinese which
any vessel may bring into any Australian port to one passenger to every 500 tons of the
ship's burthen.

(3.) That the passage of Chinese from one colony to another, without consent of the
colony which they enter, be made a misdemeanour.

The first and fourth resolutions were endorsed by all the colonies except Tasmania,
■who dissented, and Western Australia, who did not vote, while the second and third
were carried unanimously. As a whole, therefore, they faithfully represented the opinion
of the parliaments and peoples of Australia.

In conclusion the conference would call attention to the fact that the treatment of
Chinese in the Australian colonies has been invariably humane and considerate : and
that, in spite of the intensity of popular feeling during the recent sudden influx, good
order has been everywhere maintained.

In so serious a crisis the Colonial governments have felt called upon to take strong
and decisive action to protect their people : but in so doing they have been studious of
Imperial interests, of international obligations, and of their reputation as law-abiding
communities. They now confidently rely upon the support and assistance of Her
Majesty's Government in their endeavour to prevent their country from being overrun
by an alien race, who are incapable of assimilation in the body politic, strangers to our
civilization, out of sympathy with our aspii-ations, and unfitted for our free institutions,
to which their presence in any number would be a source of constant danger.

VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA.

In pursuance of these resolutions an Act was passed by the Parliament of Victoria,
Australia, on December 22, 1888, whereby it is declared :

Sec. 6. No vessel shall enter any port or place in Victoria having on board a greater
number of Chinese than one for every 500 tons of the tonnage of such vessel.

If any vessel enters any port or place in Victoria having on board any Chinese in
excess of such number, the owners, master or charterer of such vessel shall on convic-
tion be liable to a penalty of £500 for each Chinese in excess of such number.

The Act contains fourteen clauses.

The Governments of South Australia, Queensland, and Western Australia, passed
a similar Act in 1888 and 1889.

NEW SOCTH WALES.

On August 3, 1898, an Act was passed by the Parliament of New South
Wales on the lines of the Natal Act, the 3rd clause of which provides :

The immigration into New South Wales by land or sea of any person of the class
defined in the following sub-section hereinafter called ' prohibited emigrant ' is pro-
hibited, namely, any person who when asked to do so by an otficer appointed to do so
under this Act, shall fail to write out in his own handwriting in some European lan-
guage and sign an application to the Colonial Secretary in the form set out in schedule
' B ' of this Act or in the form of a similar purport proclaimed from time to time by the
Governor in substitution of the form set out in such schedule.

O.V CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGIIA TION 253

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Bv section 8 : The master and owners of any \essel from whic-li any prohibited
emigi'ant may be landed before such emigrant is passed by an officer appointed for that
purpose by the government, shall be jointly and severally liable to a penalty of £100 in
respect of the landing as aforesaid fi-om his vessel of any prohibited emigrant, and to a
further penalty of £20 for each such emigrant so landed in excess of the number of five
— the total penalties not to exceed £5,000 — the vessel to be liable for such penalty.

The Act contains other provisions to make it effective.

NEW ZEALAND.

In August, 18SS, an Act was passed by the Parliament of New Zealand amending
the Act of 1881 and limiting the immigration of Chinese in the propoi-tion of one to
every 100 tons of the tonnage of such vessel, and in 1890 was further amended by in-
crea.sing the poll tax of £10 to £100, and in 1899 the Immigration Restriction Act was
passed on the lines of the Natal Act, and assented to on July 20, 1900.

TASMANIA.

An Act was passed by the parliament of Tasmania on October 29, 1898, reserved,
and royal assent proclaimed on February 27, 1899. This also was on the lines of the
Natal Act, and declares :

Section 4. — The immigration into Tasmania is prohibited of any person described
in the following paragraphs of this section.

1. Any person who on being asked to do so by any collector of customs shall fail to
write out in his. own handwriting in the presence of such officer in some European lan-
guage and sign an application to the chief secretary of the colony in the form set out in
schedule 2 of this Act, or in a foi'm of a similar purport prescribed from time to time by
the governor in substitution of the foi-m set out in the said schedule.

2. Any person being a pauper or likely to become a public charge.

3. Any idiot or insane person.

4. Any person suffering from an infectious t>r contagious disease, or of a loathsome
or dangerous character.

5. Any person who not having received a free pardon has within two vears
previously to the time of his arriving in Tasmania been convicted of a felony or infamous
crime or a misdemeanour involving moral turpitude, and not being a mere political
offence.

Fines and imprisonment are imposed for contravention of the Act, and other pro-
visions made for giving it full eflfect.

As early as 1888 the Australian Colonies urged upon the Home Go^■ernment that
diplomatic action should be taken to obtain from China a treaty similar to that con-
cluded November 17, 1880, between China and the United States. The following
correspondence was had in reference to the matter, but it does not appear tliat any pro-
gress was made in the effort to obtain the desired treaty.

In a memorandum dated April 24, 1888, by the Attorney General and
submitted by the Premier of Tasmania in answer to the Secretary of State's circular on
the subject of Colonial Legislation action representing Chinese immigration occurs tlie
following : —

4. The reference made by His Excellency the Chinese Minister to Her Majesty's
international engagements induces me to observe that the exceptional legislation that
has been adopted by the majority of the Australasian Colonies on the subject of Chinese
immigration does not \-iolate any recognized rule of international comity ; on the con-
trary, it is a fundamental maxim of international law that every State has the right to
regulate immigration to its territories as is most convenient to the safety and prosperity
of the country, without regard to the municipal law of the countrj^ whence the foreign
immigration proceeds. (See Ferguson's Manual International Law, vol I, page 130,
and Calvo's Droit Intern., vol. I, liv., viii.)

254 HEPORT OF liOYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

7. Both the virtues and the vices of the Chinese are bred in them by a civilization
stretching back in an unparalleled fixedness of character and detail to an age more remote
than any to which the beginnings of any European nation can be traced, and the
experience of both America and Australasia prove, that no length of residence amidst a
population of European descent will cause the Chinese immigrants who remain unnatura-
lized, to change the mode of life or relinquish the practices that they bring with them
from their native country. It is consequently certain that if the unnaturalized Chinese
should at any time become as numerous, or nearly as numerous, in any colony as the
residents of European origin, the result would be either an attempt on the part of the
Chinese to establish separate institutions of a character that would trench on the
supremacv of the present legislative and administrative authorities or a tacit acceptance
bj- them of an inferior social and political position which, associated with tlie avocations
that the majority of them would probably follow, would create a combined political and
industrial division of society upon the basis of a racial distinction. This would ine\'it-
ablv produce in the majority of the remainder of the population a degraded estimate of
manual labour similar to that which has always existed in those communities where
African slavery has been permitted, and thereby call into existence a class similar in
habit and character to the ' mean whites ' of the Southern States of the American Union
before the civil war. Societies so divided produce particular ^ices in exaggerated pro-
portions, and are doomed to certain deterioration.

8. The alternative supposition that the Chinese immigrants would apply for and
obtain letters of naturalization and so acquire political equality with the remainder of
the population, suggests a result equally menacing to the permanence of the civilization
and structure of society now existing in these colonies, inasmuch as the indurated and
renitent character of the habits and conceptions of the Chinese immigrants make their
amalgamation with populations of European origin, so as to become constituent portions
of a homogeneal community, retaining the European t^-pe of civilizaticm, an impossibility.

9. The foregoing considerations invest the restrictive and prohibitory measures of
the Australasian Colonies against Chinese immigration with a sanction that Her Majesty's
Government cannot fail to recognize as sufficient to promote its intervention to obtain
from the Court of Pekin a co-operation in the prevention of the immigi'ation of its sub-
jects to the Australasian Colonies similar to that which it is stated has been obtained by
the government of the United States in regard to the immigration of Chinese into
America. (See Blue-book, Australasia Correspondence re Chinese Immigration, July
1888.)

In the same blue pamphlet. No. 78, we find a telegraphic despatch from Lord Car-
rington (New South Wales), to Lord Knutsford, June 14, 1888, in which he says ; —

' June 14. — At the Australasian Conference held in Sydney on the 12th, 13th and
14th instant, at which the colonies of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia,
Queensland, Tasmania and Western Australia were represented, the question of Chinese
immigration, and your cablegram to the Governor of South Australia in connection there-
with, were fullv considered. The members of the conference are sensible of the wish of
Her Majesty's Government to meet the views of the colonies, and have specially deliber-
ated upon the possibility of securing legislation which, while effective, should be of a
character so far as possible in accordance with the feeling and views of the Chinese
Government. They have not overlooked the political and commercial interests of the
Empire, nor the commercial interests of the colonies. The suggestion that any restric-
tions which are to be imposed should be of a general nature, so as to give power to ex-
clude European or American immigrants, has been very carefull_y deliberated upon, but
no scheme for giving effect to it has been found practicable. As the length of time to
be occupied in negotiations between the Imperial Government and the Government of
China is uncertain, and as the colonies in the meantime have reason to dread a large
influx from China, the several governments feel impelled to legislate immediately to
protect tlieir citizens against an invasion which is dreaded because of its results, not
only upon the labour market, but upon the social and moral condition of the people.
At the same time, the Conference is most anxious that Her Majesty's Government
should enter into communication with the Government of China with a view to obtain-

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMKUIATIOX 255

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

iiig, as soon as possible, a treaty under which all Chinese, except officials, travellers,
merchants, students, and similar classes should be entirel)' excluded from the Austral-
asian Colonies.'

In a despatch by the Marquis of Salisbury to Sir J. Walsham the resolutions of
the Conference were inclosed, and in which he says amongst other things : —

' The recent conclusion of a treaty between China and the United States of
America, for the exclusion of labourers from China, seems to have increased the feeling
in Australia in favtjur of more stringent regulations in the colonies of that continent,
and the working classes are represented to be strongly opposed to any furtlier intro-
duction of labourers on a large scale. Chinese immigrants are, it appears, objected to
iKjt onh- on account of their vast numbers and their competition as wage-earners, but
on the ground that they do not become assimilated with the British population, and
that they rarely, if ever, settle permanently as colonists ; but, on the contrarj', remain
essentially aliens in manners, customs, and religion, and generally return to China when
they have saved sufficient money in the colonies for theii' wants in their native country.'

At a public meeting held at Sydney on ilarch 27, it was unanimously resolved,
that the almost unrestricted influx of the Chinese into Australia will, if continued,
threaten the political and social welfare of the colony, and that the time has arrived
for the imposition of substantial and effective restrictions on their further intro-
duction.

The meeting furtlier ileclared its strong objection to anv action of the government
of China in the assistance or encouragement of Chinese immigration into Australia, and
it calletl upon Her Majesty's government to maintain the right of the Australian
ciilonies to frame such laws as they may consider necessary- to ensure in Australia the
preponderance and supremacy of the British race.

I inclose copies of the resolutions of the Conference which liave been embodied in a
draft bill, and I have to instruct you to place yourself, without delay, in communication
with the Tsung li Yaraen, and urge upon them, with the explanations and arguments
which, in your judgment, are most likely to further the object in view, that, in pursu-
ance of the considerations which I have described in this despatch, and which are
more particularly set forth in the printed correspondence which I transmit herewith,
the Chinese government should adopt a course similar to that which they followed in
the case of the United States, and enter into a convention with Her Majesty's govern-
ment to the effect indicated in tlie inclosed resolutions of the Conference held at
Sydney.

SUMMARY.

Agitation against the Chinese commenced in California in the early sixties, but no
definite action was taken by Congress until 1876, when a joint committee of the senate
and house of representatives was appointed, and after making an exhaustive examina-
tion of the question, the oonnnittee recommended that measures be taken by the executive
looking towards a modification of the existing treaty with China, conforming it to
strictly commercial purposes, and that Congress legislate to restrain the great influx of
Asiatics in this country.

Legislation by Congress followed in 1879, but was vetoed by the President.

By treaty concluded November 17, 1880, and ratified and proclaimed October 5,
1881, between the United States and China, the government of China agreed that the
government of the United States might regulate, limit and suspend the coming of
Chinese labourers to the United States, whenever in the opinion of the Government of
the United States the coming of Chinese labourers to the United States or their resi-
dence therein afffeets or threatens to affect the interest of that country or to endanger
the good order of the said country, or of anj^ locality within the territory thereof.

In 1882 an Act of Congress was passed giving effect to the above treaty, and
suspending the coming of Chinese labourers to the United States until 10 years next
after the passing of the Act.

256 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

In 1S88 an Act was passed prohibiting the immigration of Chinese labourers 'from
and after the date of the exchange of ratifications of the pending treaty lietween the
United States and the Emperor of China.'

In 1892 an Act was passed, continuing all laws then in force regarding the coming
into the United States of Chinese persons for a period of 10 years from the passage of
the Act, itc.

By treaty between the Government of the United States and the Government of
China, dated March 17, 1894, and ratified November 7, 1894, it is declared by the high
contracting parties that for a period of 10 years the coming of Chinese labourers to
the United States shall be absolutely prohibited.

By a joint resolution of the Senate and House of Representatives of July 7,
1898, it was declared that there should be no further immigration of Chinese into
the Hawaiian Islands, except upon such conditions as are now or may thereafter be
allowed bv the laws of the United States, and no Chinese by reason of anything therein
contained shall be allowed to enter the United States from the Hawaiian Islands.

In the report of the Philippine Commission, 1900, it is declared that the Chinese
are one of the principal causes of the commercial and industrial backwardness of the
Archipelago.

In Australia legislation against the Chinese commenced as early as 1855, which
increased in stringency until 1888, w^hen a meeting of the representatives from the
different Australasian governments was held in June of that j^ear, resulting in the
following resolutions : —

1. That in the opinion of this conference the further restriction of Chinese imigra-
tion is essential to the welfare of the people of Australia.

2. That this conference is of opinion that the desired restriction can best be
secured through tlie diplomatic action of the Imperial Government and by uniform
Australasian legislation.

3. That this conference resolves to consider a joint representation to the Imperial
Government for the purpose of obtaining the desired diplomatic action.

4. That this conference is of opinion that the desired Australasian legislation should
contain the following pro-s-isions : —

(1.) That it shall apply to all Chinese with specified exceptions.

(2.) That the restriction should be by limitation of the number of Chinese which
any vessel may bring into any Australian port to one passenger to every five hundred
tons of the ship's burthen.

(3.) That the passage of Chinese from one colony to another, without the consent
of the colony which they enter, be made a misdemeanor.

The first and fourth resolutions were endorsed by all the colonies except Tasmania,
which dissented, and Western Australia, who did not vote ; while the second and third
were carried unanimously.

This conference was followed by legislation by Victoria, South Australia, Western
Australia and Queensland, giving effect to the resolutions arrived at. In New Zealand
amendments were made from time tt) time until in 1896 the law stood limiting one emi-
grant to every one hundred tons of tonnage, and increasing the poll tax from £10 to
£100 ; and a further Act on the lines of the Natal Act was introduced in 1899.

In 1898 New South Wales and Tasmania each passed an Act on the lines of the
Natal Act.

On December 6, 1901, the Alien Immigration Restriction Bill was passed by the
parliament and senate of the Australian commonwealth.

CHAPTER XXV.— EFFECT OF EXCLUSION IN THE UNITED STATES.

By the United States census of 1900 there were enumerated 25,767 Chinese in
Hawaii, 3,116 in Alaska, and 304 at military and naval stations abroad ; and 89,863
in the United States proper, and of the latter number 67,729 were found in the Western
States and Territories.

0-V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

257

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The following table shows the distribution in those States and also in British
Columbia for the years 1900, 1890 and 1880 :—

Arizona . . .
California. . . .

Colorado

Idaho

Montana . . . .

Nevada

New Mexico .

Oregon

Utah

Washington

Wyoming

British Columbia,

exclusive of Cassiar and Cariboo.

1,170
72,472
1,398
2,007
2,.932
2,833

361
9.540

806
3,260

465
8,910

1,630
75,132

612
3,379
1,765
5,416
57
9,510

:>01
3,186

914
4,350

It will be seen that in twenty years the Chinese population of Californial^has
decreased from 7-5,000 in 1880 to -45,000 in 1900, while in Oregon it has slightly
increased, from 9,000 to 10,000; and in Washington it has also slightly increa.sed in
twenty 3rears, namely, from 3,186 in 1880 to 3,629 in 1900 ; and in British Columbia it
has increased from 4,350 to 14,532, exclusive of Cassiar and Cariboo, which would, at'a
fair estimate, bring the total number up to 16,000.

A comparison of the population of the States of Washington, Oregon and California
and British Columbia, at the last three censuses taken : —

Washington —

Total population

Number of Chinese.
Oregon —

Total population. . .

Number of Chinese.
California —

Total population . . .

Number of Chinese.
British Columbia —

Total population . . .

Number of Chinese.

518,103
3,629

413,536
10,397

,485,053
45,753

177,272
16,000

1890.

349,390
3,260

313,767
9,540

1,208,130
72,472

98,173
8,910

1880.

75,116
3,186

174,768
9,510

864,964
75,132

49,459
4,350

Mr. Stetson, of the firm of Stetson & Post Milling Company, Seattle, said :

Q. What would you say is the prevailing feeling in the city as to the exclusion
law ; is it in favour of the law being continued in force as it is, or would the general
feeling favour the abrogation of the exclusion law ? — A. It never comes up. The ques-
tion is settled. No industry has ceased because of it that I know of. The law has
been enforced and its action has passed out of recollection.

This company employs 125 men, none of whom are either Chinese or Japanese.

W. H. Perry, assistant general manager of Moran Brothers Lumber Company, who
employ 100 men, but no Chinese or Japanese, states that there are no Chinese or
Japanese employed in the lumber mills in the city of Seattle or its neighbourhood.

Q. Is there any desire among what might be called the capitalistic interests to
abrogate the Exclusion Law or are they satisfied with it ? — A. I think they are satis-
fied with it and desire it to continue. I think they are in favour of Chinese exclusion
as a rule, although there are some small sections where they might favour the Chinese,
where thev think they require low priced labour, but I think the number is very small.
54—17

258 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Q. What is the feeling in the city and in the State in regard to exclusion I — A. I
think it is overwhelmingly in favour of the exclusion of Chinese. They are not consi-
dered a desirable element in the community for the reason that they do not and will
not assimilate with us, and I do not think it would be desirable if they would assimilate.
They do not take any interest whatever in our laws or institutions. They contribute
very little to the general good of the community. They pay a very small proportion of
taxes for the business that they do.

J. W. Clise, president of the chamber of commerce, Seattle, when asked whether
there was anv feeling in favour of the abrogation of the Exclusion Act said : It is some-
thing that in recent years I have not had to give any serious consideration to. The
Exclusion Act is in force and the question is one which is regarded by most of the
people as settled and done with. There are some of the large institution.s I think would
have liked to have had the law a little modified at the time of its passing, but I think
it has given general satisfaction. Our peojile are opposed to the Chinese and Japanese.
In Tacoma they expelled them. Here there was a great agitation and the military had to
be called out, and the city put under marshal law. That was the result in 1886 of the
non-enforcement of the Exclusion Law. The white people found it difficult to get a
living ; they found they were being interfered with everywhere, and that they
would have to leave the country if the Chinese were allowed to come in here, and they
demanded that the Chinese should be expelled. In Seattle they sent out two hundred
out of six hundred, and we have never come up again to the original number. We have
got now about three hundred in Seattle. Since the city has grown so rapidlv thev do
not constitute a serious menace.

A. H. Grout, labour commissioner, Seattle, who had li\ed fourteen years on the
coast and seemed to have a thorough knowledge of the question, said :

Q. Did the introduction of those laws (Restrictive and Exclusion Acts) cause any
serious inconvenience to the difierent industries 1 — A. None that I am aware of.

Q. Did the change cause any injury to trade or did it interfere with the prosperity
of the different industries ? — A. No.

Q. Was it complained of by employers ? — A. Not that I am aware of. I have been
in this position five years, but did not make it a study before that time. I was en-
gaged in the lumber industry before that time.

I think a large majority of our citizens would be in favour of continuing the law as
it is in force at present. I think the majoritv of employers are in favour of continuing
the law as at present. I do not think there is any industry in our State or in this city
that suffered by reason of the Exclusion Act.

Theodore Ludgate, lumber merchant at Seattle, formerly of Peterborough, On-
tario, employs 150 men ; no Chinese or Japanese employed.

Q. Do any of the mills with whom you come in competition employ Chinese or
Japanese labour ? — A. Not in the city or its neighbourhood. The only mill employing
Japanese is the Port Blakelej^ Mill, nine or ten miles across the Sound from here.

When asked as to the prevailing opinion as to the Chinese and Japanese.

A. They are not desired here at all.

(For fuller quotations from this witness see the chapter on the lumber business.)

William H. Middleton, secretary of the Central Labour Union, Seattle, said : The
people "enerallv, are in favour of the continuance of the enforcement of the Exclusion
Act. We had Chinese riots in 1886, and they came near driving all the Chinese out of
the city. The Government had to call out the military, and the Government kept them
(the Chinese) in town, but usually they kept in a part of the town called ' Chinatown'.

A. S. Martin, secretary of the Puget Sound sawmill and Shingle Company, Fair
Haven, Washington : the company employs 265 hands and never employ either Chinese
or Japanese, he said : The sentiment here is opposed to both Chinese and Japanese.
Thev were not permitted here at all until the canneries started. If the question were
put "to a popular vote not a Chinaman or Japanese woukl be allowed in town. Chinese
have never been employed in these mills. There are no Japanese here. There are not
fifty Cliinese in the country outside the canneries. The Chinese in the canneries all
come from Portland for the season, and return at its close. This labour is furnished
under contract by Chinese contractors of Portland.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 259

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

W. T. Harris, of the Wliatcom Falls Mill Company, that employs 75 men, but no
Chinese or Japanese ; they manufacture lumber and shingles, — said : Chinese are not
employed at Whatcoui at all. We don't see them here at all. The population of What-
com is about ten thousand. We experienced no difficulty in getting common or skilled
labour. The principal industry at Whatcom is lumbering. The coal mines are several
miles from town. The)- employ all white labour.

W. Sherman, Manager of the Bellingliam Bay Lumber Company, said : We employ
about 350 men ; no Chinese or Japanese. We export lumber to Soutli America, Aus-
tralia, Hong Kong and Japan, also to San Francisco and east of the Rockies. There is
no difficulty in getting labour. We buv our logs.

Henry F. Fortman, president of the Alaska Packers' Association, said :

Q. As far as your observation goes do Chinese become Americanized % Do they
become citizens in the proper sense of the term, — taking an interest in your laws and
institutions % — A. Well, they cannot become citizens unless they are born here. Thev
take great interest in the country.

Q. Are they looked upon by the people generally as a class out of which to make
good citizens ? — A. Well, no. The average Caucasian does not care about them, and
white people do not associate with them in any waj'. It was owing to the general feel-
ing of the American people that the Exclusion Act was passed and brought into force.

(See further extracts from the evidence of this witness in the chapter on canneries.)

S. E. Masten, of Portland, secretary of the Board of Trade and Commerce, and
Theodore Wilcox, stated that the number of Chinese had diminished very much in the
last ten years. Mr. Masten then stated that his assistant, Mr. Wilcox, was much more
familiar with the whole question than he was, and placed the Commissioners in communi-
cation -with Mr. Wilcox who said that the present population of Portland was between
ninety and a hundred thousand, and that there were not over 2,500 Chinamen in the
city. Twenty j'ears ago with a population of twenty-five thousand there were twice as
many Chinamen in the city.

Q. I wish to ask you whether the introduction of the Exclusion Act had any effect
on business ? — A. I do not think so. I do not think that any action that has ever been
taken against the Chinese here has ever affected our trade in any way. I am only
speaking from my own personal observation. I know it has never interfered with our
business.

Q. What is the general feehng of the community here ; are the people in favour
of the immigration of coolie labour or are they in favour of the continued enforcement
of the Exclusit)n Act ? — A. We would rather not ha\-e the coolie class here. We would
rather not have Chinese or Japanese labourers ccjming in here at all. The railways in
the past employed a good many Chinamen, but they do not employ as many now as they
did a few years ago. I have been on the Northern Pacific Railway and they do not
employ as man}' now as they did a few years ago. I have been on the Northern Pacific
Railwaj' several times lately and have not seen any Chinese.

A. A. Bailey, secretary of the Federated Trades, Portland, said : I do not know
that the Chinese or Japanese do a great deal of good here. Whatever money they earn
very little of it is spent in this country. The labouring men of America spend their
money here and people in business liere get the benefit of it. The Chinese come here
working for low wages and the money they earn they send the most of it out of the
country to China. Their cost of living is very small and all the money they have over
the actual cost of li\"ing is sent to China.

The American working man earns all the money he can. Whatever money he
earns he spends it here and the business community have the benefit of it. That is one
reason why merchants and a great many of the business men are in favour of the
Exclusion Act. The only people I have found in favour of letting down the bar are
men requiring a large amount of unskilled labour, and they think they can get that
cheap by the Chinese coming in here, and that they can do as well with the Chinese as
with white labour. They do not care about what comes of the country if they ha\e
their work done cheaply, such as the building of railroads and otlier large works. They
are in the business to make as much money out of it as possible. They do not give a
54— 17i

260 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

cent for what becomes of the country. They are contractors who come in here to build
railways and all they care for is to make lai-ge profits for themselves. They are the men
who favour the immigration of the Chinese, whereas the people who live in the country,
the merchants and the business men, and the citizens of the state generally, those who
make their homes here, are all in favour of the Exclusion Act being continued in force.

Q. What proportion of the people are in favour of the law as it stands I — A. I
should say eighty per cent is a very conservative estimate. At the time the Exclusion
Law was brought into effect quite a number took the view that all men were entitled to
come to the country and \\\e here under wliatever conditions they chose, but there was
such an outcry from the whole of the people that they did not want the Chinese here
that our representatives in Congress supported proliibition, and the Exclusion Act has
been ever since regarded as a settlement for all time of the question. It was then the
almost universal opinion that to open our doors and let large numbers of these people
come in would be ruinous to the working people of the United States.

J. M. Lawrence, city editor of the Oregonian, Portland, stated that he had resided
in Portland for thirteen years. In 11890 the State of Oregon had a population
of 313,767, of whom only three or four thousand were Chinese, so that the number of
Chinese hei'e in proportion to the population was very small. Fourteen years ago there
was an agitation against the Chinese all around the coast. There was an agitation to
run them out of Oregon. At that time the Chinese were run out of Taconia and other
places on the coast, and they were collected chiefly in the towns, mostlj' in Portland,
and I have no doubt a great many of the Chinese left the countiy then. At that time
there were about 150 Chinamen in a woollen mill and they were driven out of that
employment. It caused incon^venience for a little while. I believe it took a little time
for them to get in white hands accustomed to the work. I think the people are in
favour of the law as it stands.

Q. There were a large number of Chinese here up to the time of the Exclusion Act
going into force ■? — A. Yes, but it is a little difficult to estimate the population at that
time, for this reason, — that the contractor who was centered here might have a thousand
men on hand today and in a week most of them would be sent to Puget Sound, to the
fisheries, or to the hop fields, and the Cliinese population might vary two or three
hundred in the course of a week. Even to this day some Chinese are sent from here to
Alaska in connection with the fisheries. I have known of three or four carloads being
sent up to Alaska at one time. You might call these people still residents here. That
would raise my estimate of the Chinese population, and the Chinese population might go
up to seven thousand or eight thousand.

As to the industries, I do not think they were established by reason of the presence
of the Chinese or the Japanese. I think the industries would have been established all
the same, although their development may not have been so rapid. In the past the
Chinese may have served Oregon ^•ery well, but they are not required here now. We
can get on very well without them. We have no prejudice against the Chinese, except,
as I say, they come in unfair competition with our own people. They are not desirable
as citizens. They do not assimilate with our people, and it would not be desirable if
they did assimilate.

H. S. Rowe, mayor of Portland, said ; I was superintendent of the Oregon Naviga-
tion Company. The general feeling of the whole community is in fa\our of the law as
it stands. The change was gradual ; when the Exclusion Act was put in force there
was nothing like a shock nor any inconvenience suffered : the change was gradual. I
do not think any inconvenience was suffered by anyone. Our trans-continental lines
were completed, and we were able to get in all the white labour we wanted from the
east.

Walter HonejTnan, merchant, cannery and fishing supplies, of Portland. This
i^atness stated that only the working people and the trades unions were in favour of the
Exclusion Law.

Q. How does it come that the people did not protest against the law if the feeling
in the community is as you say it is 1 — A. That was all worked up by the trades'
unions.

ox CniXKSE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 26]

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. We have been told that the feehiig is unauimous now, or ahnost unanimous iu
the community, against the Chinese coming in? — A. Not among the merchant people.

Q. Would the merchants prefer to see the Chinese coming in ? — A. . Yes.

Q. Without restriction ? — A. They fill a want, I think, here as domestics, doing
gardening work and cutting wood around the city.

Q. The mayor of the city gave us the opinion that the working of the law was
satisfactory to the community in general? — A. Well, I do not mix so much among the
tradespeople as he does.

Q. Is the mayor in business ? — A. He used to be one of the superintendents of the
railway.

Q. What is the line of your supplies? — A. Gill-nets, seines and traps.

Q. Do you regard the Chinese as a people who would make desirable citizens 1 — A.
I have never known anything about the Chinese but that they are always peaceable and
law-abiding and would make good citizens.

Q. To settle hei-e ? — A. I do not know.

Q. Would you give them a vote 1 — A. No, I do not believe in giving them votes
unless they are educated.

Q. If the}' are good citizens why not give them votes 1 — A. They are a good deal
better than some who have votes.

Q. Do they become Americanized '? — A. Very few.

Q. Do they take an interest in j'our laws and institutions 1 — A. Very few.

I was born in .Scotland and am an American citizen. I think the exclusion of
these people has retarded the development of the countrj'. I am not interested in the
canneries, except in selling them supplies.

F. V. Me3'ers, commissioner of the Bureau of Labour Statistics, San Francisco,
.said : The Chinese have to a certain extent become Americanized, to the extent of
having labour unions of their own and having fixed prices for certain work, as our unions
have. The Chinese question has been considered a dead issue. It is a closed issue now
under the Exclusion Act. I have expressed that on page 15 of my report as to alien
labour in the State of California. The Exclusion Law will expire I believe in 1902, and
public opinion in the state will certainlj' favour the Exclusion Act being continued iu
force. The general feeling is to make it still more exclusive, and to include the Japanese.
Let me say here that in giving you that as the feeling of the community, in voicing a
sentiment of that kind I am not speaking of that now from a partisan point of view. I
am not indicating if I have opinions of mv own what these opinions are. I am simply
stating the fact, that the general feeling of the community is in favour of the continuance
of the Exclusion Act in regard to the Chinese, and to have the same measure of exclu-
sion extended to the Japanese as well. In so far as public feeling is concerned I think
you will find that is the fact. Of course you will under'stand all such questions are
agitated thr<.>ugh the medium of the newspapers, but fliey are finally settled at the
ballot box. The sentiment of the labouring classes is decidedly against the Chinese and
the Japanese, and the organizations are very strong at the ballot box. It is said by
some that a larger amount of that kind of labour, cheap labour, would be a benefit to
the industries of the State and would induce more capital to come in to develop it ; that
a low class of labour is required to do the unskilled work necessary in carrying on the
different industries ; that the different industries would be developed, and therefore
would afford more work for the higher class of labour. That idea is entertained by
some, but the general feeling of the community is just as I have stated. I do not think
the change in favour of the Chinese would be appreciable. The method adopted did not
cause inconvenience or injury to anv appreciable extent. If the Chinese had been bodily
sent away — had been taken from the \arious a\'ocations — some industries might have
had to close up for a little time. The expulsion of the Chinese would have caused a
considerable jar, because there would not have been sutficient white labour to take their
places. Quite likely some of the industries would have been inconvenienced and ham-
pered for a time ; no question about that. I think the Exclusion Act is more thoroughly
in force now than it was at first.

262 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSWX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

James D. Phelan, mayor of San Francisco, said ; I do not believe tliere was any
appreciable jar or that there was any loss appreciable by the introduction of the Exclu-
sion Act. I belie\e the companies are in fa\-our of the re-enactment of the law, or the
enactment of a more exclusive law. They look upon it in this way — I am pretty familiar
with the sentiment of the people on the subject ; I have made a study of the subject,
and have come to the conclusion that we will be far better without the Chinese or
Japanese ; and that withf)ut them we will still have a great development in our State,
and the industrial conditions will be improved all along the line. Tlie presence of
the Chinese means the exclusion of \vhite men : the Chinamen come here alone : families
of Chinese are very rare here. They are no use at all to the community ; they injure
our civilization. If we were rid of the Chinese their places would be tilled with white
people and their families, and the State and the country would be benefitted largely.
They have so encroached upon the different trades and callings, so far that it may be
termed that there has been an industrial revolution, and if they go any further there is
no limit to the injury they will do. If the barriers were let down, there would be such
an expression of opinion that in a very short time there wt)uld be no doubt a re-enact-
ment of the Exclusion Law ; and the Exclusion Law would be rendered so as to apply
to other nationalities from the east.

They are mostly of a ser'iile class : and that is entirely antagonistic to the Americ.m
idea of equality. The whole thing is fundamentally wrong ; and they have demonstrated
strongly that an Exclusion Act is necessary, if our country is to develop, and if our
civilization is to keep pace with the civilization of Europe.

J. H. Barber, connected with the Innnigi-ation Office, San Francisco, said :

Q. Is there any sentiment now against the Exclusion Act, or do you regard the
question as settled 1 — A. Yes. It has acted so satisfactorily that I do not think there
can be said to be any great number in the city or in the State who would favour the abro-
gation of the Act.

Q. From yom- personal observation or from information within your knowledge can
you say whether the Exclusion Act wlien it was put in force caused any shock to busi-
ness ? — A. No, I do not believe it did. The only thing is that there is a scarcity of do-
mestic help. That is the only place I can think of whei-e the Chinese are missed. Of
course they were used on the gardens and on farms.

Q. To what extent were they used ? — A. Not to a great extent. The Japanese are
used now where they can be got. The demand is so great that they can use all the
Chinese and all the Japanese available. The Japanese cannot supersede the Chinese.
People prefer the Chinese when they can get them.

Q. Is the labour market well supplied ; is there an abundance of labour in the
city? — A. There is an abuiMlance of labour here just now.

SUMMARY.

The effect of restrictive legislation and the Exclusion Act in the L'^nited States has
been to gradually decrease the number of Cliinese upon the coast, the greatest reduction
having taken place in California, from 72,472 in 1)^90 to 45,753 in 1900.

The population of Washington State has increased from 75,116 in 1880 to 518,103
in 1900, while the number of Chinese has only increased from 3,186 in 1880 to 3,629 in
1900. While the population of British Columbia has increased from 49,459 in 1880 to
177,272 in 1900, the Chinese population has increased during the same period from
4,550 to 16,000.

Again, Seattle with a population of over 80,000, has less than 500 Chinese ; while
Victoria with a population of 20,000 has over 3,300 Chinese.

In the Coast States the overwhelming opinion, as far as we were able to gather it,
is in favour of the present Exclusion Law, and this opinion is shared by employers as well
as employees, and other citizens. The Exclusion Law caused no shock to the various
industries : the change was so gradual as not to be noticed.

The Chinese are largely employed in the cannery business, but they are not
employed in the other large industries such as lumbering, the shingle business and coal

ON CHINEUE AND J A PANES E IMMIGRA TION 263

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

mines, nor are they to any considerable extent engaged in farming, except at certain
seasons of the year, when they are employed in hop-picking and berry-picking, itc.

Their mode of living is and always has been similar to that which obtains in
British Columbia. Each city in which they are found has its ' Chinatown.' The white
people do not associate with them, nor do they assimilate in any way with the white
people. They are not regarded as a desirable class. Fifty years has made very little
change as to their habits of life.

The question is regarded as closed, and we ct)uld learn of no considerable class that
were in favour of changing the Exclusion Law as it now exists.

CHAPTER XXVI.— RESUME.

The following resume gives in outline the results of the foregoing chapters, to
which reference must be had for a complete statement of the facts and evidence bearing
upon the cjuestion of Chinese immigration and its relation to the great industries and
its eftect upon the Pro\'ince and country at large.

CHAPTEIl I. REPRESENTATIONS BY BRITISH COLUMBIA.

For over ten years British Columbia has made persistent efforts to further restrict
or exclude the immigration of Chineses into the provinces ; by addresses of the Local
Legislature to the Lieutenant Governor in Council transmitted to the Dominion Govern-
ment ; by numerous acts of the Local Legislature, endeavouring to limit immigration or
discourage it bv excluding Chinese from public works and the passing of the Natal Act ;
by over seventy petitions in 1891 to the Dominion Parliament, and from year to year
repeated, the province of British Columbia has endeavoured to press upon the Domin-
ion Parliament the necessity of saving this pro%'ince to the Dominion and the Empire
from the invasion of this alien race, claimed to be non-assiniilative and a menace to the
present and future well-being of the province.

CHAPTER II. — THE CHINESE IMMIGRANT.

Except a slight falling off after the building of the Canadian Pacific Railway, the
number of Chinese has steadily increased in the Province of British Columbia from
4,48.3 in 1880 to 8,910 in 1891, and 16,000 (estimated) in 1901.

These immigrants are mostly of the coolie class, or farm labourers, whose earnings
in their own country would not average more than three to seven cents a day of our
money, upon which commonly a family of from two to five people have to be supported.
They are poor below our conception of poverty, always bordering on the line of want.
This is the class of immigrants that come to British Columbia. They are chiefly adult
males who conie. Take Victoria as an instance most favourable to the Chinese, as being
the oldest settlement : Of 3,27:^ less than 100 had their wives with them and of these
61 are of the merchant class, leaving about 3,000 labourers, of whom 28 had wives liv-
ing with them. The others who are married have their wives in China.

In the whole province, with a population of 16,000 (estimated) Chinese, 122
Chinese children attend the public schools.

CHAPTER in. THEIR UNSANITARY CONDITION.

]\Iedical men, health officers and sanitary inspectors with one accord regard them
as a menace to health, because of their overcrowding and persistent disregard of sanitary
conditions and regulations. It is not surpri.sing, therefore, to find that consinnption is
especially prevalent among them.

264 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902
CHAPTER IV. CRIME STATISTICS.

Crime statistics are not unfavourable to the Chinese. This mav arise from the
undoubted difficult}- of securing conviction. There is strong evidence that they conspire
to conceal crime.

CHAPTER V. THE MORAL AND RELIGIOUS ASPECT OF THE CASE.

The presence of Chinese, who have an entirely different standard of moralitv to that
of the white population, without home life, schools, churches or religion, tends to lower
the moral sense of the community, especially of the young. They are undoubtedly
looked upon by the great mass of the people as a servile class.

The young despise the Chinaman and look upon the employment in wliich he is
engaged as degrading, and as he is employed in nearly every avenue of unskOled labour,
this evil is widespread, and its effect was everywhere observable.

A reference to the views of ministers and clergy shows that missionary work among
the Chinese in British Columbia is surrounded with great difHculty, and the progress
made, haN-ing regard to numbers only, exceedingly slow. The consensus of opinion
seems to be that conditions for missionary work weie not as favourable here as in China,
' possibly ' (as one witness put it) ' because I doubt whether Christian practices and
Christian theories would not baffle the Chinese intelligence.'

CHAPTER VI. THE PROPORTION OF TAXES PAID UV CHINESE.

The Chinese bear no fair proportion of the burden of taxation, either municipal,
provincial or dominion.

CHAPTER VII. LAND CLEARING AND AGRICrLTURE.

^\liile the Chinese have contributed as labourers to the clearing of land, their pres-
ence has been seriously detrimental to its settlement by a white population. The white
settler who earns his living from the land by his own work is strongly opposed to further
immigration. He is in many cases isolated and every incoming Chinaman adds to his
isolation. To the extent of their numbers the Chinese discourage churches, schools and
social intercourse. They prevent incoming settlers and drive out those who are there.
They are a deterrent, sure and effectual to the settlement of the lands, encouraging land
monopoly and discouraging small holdings.

CHAPTER VIII. MARKET GARDENING.

This very important branch of industry that ought to be a help to small holders
and farmers is entirely in the hands of the Chinese. It is impossible to compete with
them. Their control of this branch of industry retards settlement and severely cripples
the small land holders and farmers who, while clearing the land might otherwise look to
their market gardens to assist them in supporting their families.

CHAPTER I.V. — COAL MIXES.

Chinese are not employed in coal mines except on the coast.

At the new Vancouver Coal Company, of a total of 1,336 men, 175 are Chinese.
The rest are whites. The Chinese are employed only above ground at this mine.

At the Dunsmuir Union Mines 877 men are employed, of these 363 are Chinese, and
they are employed above and below ground.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 265

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

At the Dunsmuir Extension Mine 1,000 men are employed, (if wliom lG-1 are
Chinese and these mostly above ground.

The general superintendent of the New V^ancou\'er Coal CVmipanv fa\(.)urs the
total prohibitii)U of further immigration, and thinks the remedy should be applied at
once.

The general manager of the Wellington Colliery Comjiany (the Dunsmuir Mines)
thinks there should be no restriction wliatever.

The Hon. James Dunsmuir, president of the abo\e company, in an official communi-
cation to the Dominion Government, dated October 9, 1900, favours 'an increase of
the per capita tax in such measuri' as to surely limit the number of immigrants, and by
enactment of legislation similar t(.i the Natal Act to regulate their emploj'nient while in
the country.'

The present supply of Chinese labourers is sufficient to meet the demands of this
industry for years to come. The evidence of those chiefly affected is in favour of the
view, that no appreciable inconvenience or loss will be suffered by this industry by
further restriction or even exclusion.

CHAPTERS X AND XI. PLACER AND LODE MINES.

The value of the mineral outpiut of British Columbia, including coal and coke, for
the year 1900 amounted to over sixteen millions, and for the year 1901 to over twenty
millions, and of these amounts the Lode Mines (gold, silver, lead and copper) in 1900
yielded ten millions, and the Placer Mines, including hydraulic, ovei' one and a quarter
millions ; and in 1901 the Lode Mines yielded fourteen millions and a quarter and the
Placer Mines less than a million.

Chinese are not employed in the Lode Mines in the interior, and only in one or two
instances on the coast. The}' are not employed in the Atlin district, nor are they
employed in the Cariboo Consolidated. Tlie^' are employed, however, in the other Placer
Mines to the number probably of one thousand or over, about one-half of whom work for
themselves, either on royalty or under lease, on old placer claims or new claims ; and
the other half work for companies who are engaged in placer mining, including open
hydraulic.

Out of a total 1,-ield of $11,3-47,000 from Lode and Placer Mines in 1900 they
assisted in contributing approximately from $300,000 to $400,000.

The exclusion of further immigration of Chinese will not affect these industries.

CHAPTER XII. THE LUMBER INDUSTRY EXPORT TRADE.

Three mills contributed 97 per cent of the eighty-four million feet of lumber ex-
ported last year.

The principal exporting mill is the onlj' one that employs Chinese to any extent,
except as cooks, and the manager of this mill is in favour of exclusion. It is clear,
therefore, that so far as this branch of industrj' is concerned the exclusion of further
Chinese immigration would not injuriously affect it.

CHAPTES XIII. LOCAL AND EASTERN TRADE.

The owners and managers of the non-exporting mills are largely in favour of further
restriction or exclusion of Chinese. Chinese are not employed to any considerable
extent in the woods.

If Chinese and Japanese both were deported, it would put the owners to serious
inconvenience and loss, but if no more Chinese are permitted to come in the supply is
ample, and the change will be so gradual as in no wise to impair the business. The
Chinese are not employed in any lumber mills on the Sound.

266 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
CHAPTER XIV. — THE SHIXGLE AND BOLT BUSINESS.

This important industry employs over a thousand men, of whom more than half are
Chinese and Japanese : the Chinese being employed in the shingle mills and the
Japanese in getting out bolts.

There are sutKcient Chinese to meet the demand in this trade for years to come.
Neither Chinese nor Japanese are employed in this business on the American side, and
they are not essential to its success here, but being available and conveniently employed
by Chinese boss contractors, they have become a part of the machinery of production,
which would for a time be thrown out of gear if they were discharged. They are at
present more convenient, but not essential. They displace, however, boys who could
well do this work, and by whom it is chiefly done in the east and on the Sound, the fact
being that while there are plenty of boys who might be employed they are left in idle-
ness, because the Chinese are preferred. In this regard this business afibrds a marked
illustration of the permanent injury that is being done to the youth of the country.
Wliile the Chinese are here they will be employed.

CHAPTER XV. CANNING INDUSTRY.

The Chinese have become experts in salmon canning. They are employed as a rule
by Chinese bosses, who contract with the canners at so much a case. They are used in
all canneries. The imraber i-etjuired has been greatly lessened in proportion to the pack
by the introduction of machinery.

Formerlj- all the cans used were made by Chinese : now an automatic canning
factory, run by white labour, at New Westminster, has a capacity to meet the entire
demand of the province, but only about one-tenth are so supplied, the rest being made
by Chinese at the various canneries. In the process, also, machinery has greatly
reduced the numbers employed.

Chinese labour is preferred because it is alwaj-s available, easily handled, efficient
and cheap.

Cheap labour and large profits iii\-ited many to engage in the business. Canneries
increased, the river became crowded with fishermen, competition appeared from Alaska
and the Sound, and profits were reduced. Nearly all agree this industry is being over-
done, both in the interest of the canneries and the fishermen, and that a depletion of
the supply is threatened.

Opinion is divided among the cannerymen who testified as to the expediency of
prohibiting further immigration or exclusion. Only two favoured the removal of aU
restriction ; one declined to express an opinion ; one thought the present restriction
sutfieient. All agreed that the Chinese labourer does not make a desirable citizen and
ought not to have the franchise.

Without an exception the canners who testified stated that the industry, at the
present time and under existing conditions, could not be carried on successfully without
the aid of Chinese.

Having regard to the views generally expressed by witnesses as to a maximum
development having been reached, and the possible depletion of supply and the number
of Chinese now in the province, there are sutfieient Chinese already in the province to
meet the demand for years to come. The change will be so gradual as to be all but
imperceptible, and may be met by the employment of whites and Indians.

On the Sound and in Alaska Chinese are also employed in the canneries, and this
industry has there developed chiefly during the pei'iod since the Exclusion Act came
into force. It has not only not retarded development, but expansion has taken place
chiefly during this period. Many millions have been invested therein within the last
three or four years.

There is nothing disclosed in the evidence as it affects this industry which renders
it inexpedient, if otherwise desirable, to exclude the further immigration of Chine.se into
the Dominion.

ON CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 267

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHAPTEli XVI. — DOMESTIC SERVICE.

Chinese, and of late Japanese, supply the demand largely for domestic servants.
There is no doubt that under present conditions it is exceedingly difficult to obtain
white domestic servants in British Columbia, though there were many prominent citizens
wlio declared that it was purely a question of wages and mistress, and that they had never
had any difficulty in obtaining and keeping white girls as domestic servants. The cause
of this exceptional scarcity is quite apparant. This kind of help is usually largely
drawn from the families of unskilled labourers who in this way assist tlieir income. If
then the work of unskilled labourers is done by Chinese and Japanese, who take the
places of fathers of families from which under normal conditions domestic servants
would be drawn, the source of the supply is cut off, and every Chinaman who comes into
the countrv, displacing a white labourer, increases the difficulty.

The Chinese first create and then fill the want. With six thousand white labourers,
or even half that number with families in the four coast cities, (having regard to the
number of Chinese that are actually employed as domestics, being less than a thousand
all told) it is altogether probable that the supply would meet the demand, at least tc
the extent that it is generally met with in the east. So long as unskilled white
labour is displaced so long will it be difficult, if not impossible, to get white girls for
help.

It was found in Seattle that very few Chinese were employed as servants. None
are employed in the city of Tacoma, very few in Portland. As white labour took the
place of Chinese, white servants filled the place of Chinese servants.

The fact is established that with an Exclusion Law and Chinese excluded from
mills and factories, Seattle with a Chinese population of about four huntlred, is fairly
supplied with servant girls, while in Victoria with three thousand Chinese employed in
the mills, &c., servant girls are rarely employed. The lesson is plain : as long as you
have Chinese for unskilled labour you cannot expect to have white girls for domestics.

CHAPTER XVII. THE LAUNDRY BUSINESS.

From eight hundred to a thousand Chinamen are engaged in this business in'
British Columbia, and in many places where steam laundries do not exist thev are a
great convenience. Over a quarter of a million is paid out to Chinese in this business,
a small proportion of which goes in circulation or benefits the country at large.

CHAPTER XVIII. PARTS 1 AND 2 MERCHANT TAILORS AND THE WHOLESALE MANUFACTURE

OF CLOTHING.

Part 1. In no case have the Chinese encroached upon skilled labour to the same
extent as they have in the tailoring business in Victoria. In 1891, there were eighteen
tailor shops in Victoria, employing 1-50 white men and women, with a 3'early wage of
•■Jl 09,000. No Chinese were engaged in the trade : a few made overalls. In March,
1901, there were employed in Victoria in the tailoring business 21 white men and 30
women and girls, with an average wage to the men of $12 a week, and for the women
.f6 per week, giving a yearly total of $22,464, and fourteen firms of Chinese merchant
tailors, employing 84 hands in the manufacture of clothes for white people, and two
firms that manufacture only Chinese clothing. They do a large portion of what might
be called high class work, and ladies' tailor-made dresses, which in some cases formefl
one-third of the business.

The result has been that many journeymen tailors with their families had to leave
the country. It was quite clear from the evidence that it is impossible for the merchant
tailors to compete without reducing wages below what a journeymen tailor can live
upon and support his family and educate his children.

The Chinese tailors in a few years will practically control this trade unless con-
ditions are changed. This trade affords evidence that it is only a question of time when
skilled labour in the other employments must meet this competition.

268 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Part 2. — In the wholesale manufacture of clothing certain parts of the trade are
entirely in the hands of the Chinese. One firm put in a plant costing §2,000, with the
latest machinery ; employed 40 hands, girls and women, and got work from wliolesale
merchants at prices that would pay, and that had been paid to the Chinese. The firm
was given the preference over the Chinese. The Chmese cut the price. The firm again
competed at this price. The Chinese again cut the price. The firm tried to meet this
by allowing their hands all they could earn at this price, but hands that were paid SI
a day could only make 40 cents on piece work at the last reduction. The firm had
to go out of the business. The Chinese fix the wage and practically control this
part of the industry.

CHAPTER XIX. — OTHER TRADES AND CALLINGS.

1. The Boot and Shoe Trade. — There is one factory at Victoria, employing 16
Chinese. Some years ago 60 Chinese were employed in the factory, but the market
being limited in the west, it was found difficult to compete with eastern manufactures,
■even with Chinese labour. The proprietor favoured exclusion and stated tliat it was
his intention in the near future to manufacture with white labour or not at all, as custo-
mers complained of Chinese made work.

3. Cigar-makiiig. — Victoria is the onlv city in British Columbia, we believe, where
Chinese are engaged in cigar making. The cigars made thei'e are said to be chiefly for
consumption by Chinese.

3. Brick-making. — At one time white labour was exelusivelj- employed in brick-
making. Chinese are now employed on the coast, only foremen and teamsters are
white. The Chinese live together La shacks in the brickyard, at a cost and under con-
ditions that preclude competition. They have gradually driven out the white labourer,
and the work is now practically done by them. One foreman put it, — ' hundreds ' (of
white men) ' apply and are turned away.' The work is usually done through Chinese
bosses by contract ; only Chinamen are employed.

To hope that by and by the white men under these conditions will be able to
replace the Chinese in the employments where they are so engaged is not justified by
the facts. Where they have given place to others is where the Japanese have underbid
them.

One of the most successful employers in this business is in favour of no restriction
upon labour. He approves of the dutv on brick. The foremen engaged in the business
are all in fa\"Our of exclusion.

4- Lime-bur III ng. — This work is also largely done by Chinese, (except that of fore-
men) in the proportion of seven Chinese and two white men.

•5. Fruit-canning. — In this industry no Chinese are employed, the work being done
bj' women and girls. The owner is in favour of exclusion.

6. Sugar-refining. — From 70 to 100 men are employed in this Ladustry. Of this
number 97 per cent is unskilled labour. The company has an agreement with the city
not to employ Chinese labour. The manager stated that the company had no diflieulty
in obtaining and keeping a full supply.

7. Cordwood-cvtting. — This industry, which is of importance by reason of the large
amount of wood required by the canneries, was monopolized by the Chinese ; until
recently the Japanese have largely superseded them. The supply of wood should be an
important adjunct to the settler, the injury to whom, from its falling into the hands of
Chinese and Japanese, is fully dealt with under Land Clearing.

8. Railways. — The Nanaimo and Esquimalt Railroad Company employ from 150
to 200 white men, and from 40 to 60 Chinese.

On the Pacific Division of the Canadian Pacific Railway 99 Chinese are employed
•out of a total of 4,693 in this division.

Having regard to the small number of Chinese employed, it cannot be said that the
railway is to any considerable extent dependent upon that class of labour for its success-
ful t)peration.

O.V CHINESE AND J A PANESE IMMIGRA TION 269

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

U. The Canndkm Pacific Steamttliip Company. — Five hundred and seventy Chinese
are employed on the vessels of the Canadian Steanisliip Company, running between
Vancouver and Hong Kong.

From 500 to 600 Chinese are employed to do repairs on these vessels through a
company at Hong Kong, which, if done at Vaucou\er, would give employment to at
least 100 mechanics : which with other expenditures would amcjunt to •'§10,000 or
$12,000 per month.

The repairs on Australian .ships are done by white labour ami done in their own
ports.

iO. Railway Construction. — The Chine.se are not employed in railway construction
at the present time, and have not been since the building of the Canadian Pacific Rail-
way, with few unimportant exceptions. White labour is preferred.

11. Electric Raihraij in Vancouver, Victoria, and New Wes! minster. — Nearly four
liundred men are employed by this company ; all are white men.. The manager stated
that there was no difficulty in getting all they required.

12. Freightimi. — The Chinese engage in freighting from Ashcroft into the Cariboo
mines, chiefly for Chinese merchants.

CHAPTER XX — UNSKILLED LABOUR.

The employment of Chinese in all the avenues of unskilled labour presses unduly
upon this class of white labour, forcing many to leave the province and deterring many
who would otherwise come to the province as permanent settlers.

The injury to the youth of the country is equally apparent, causing deep concern to
parents, which is well founded.

CHAPTER XXI GENERAL MERCHANTS AND TRADERS.

Thei'e are Chinese merchants in business in every city, town and village in the prov
ince, exeejit Phcenix and Sandon. Their trade is chiefly with their own people.

In large centres the business of green grocers and garden vegetables is largely con-
trolled b}' them.

White traders are almost unanimously opposed to further Chinese innnigration, for
obvious reasons. They not only control the trade of their own people, but their pres-
ence in large numbers, taking the place of men with families, affects injuriously every
trade interest and to a very serious extent.

CHAPTER XXII — IS FURTHER RESTRICTION OR EXCLUSION DESIRED ?

Public opinion in British Columbia, with few exceptions, is in favour of the pro
hibition of further Chinese innnigration. It is bj^ no means confined to the labour class.
They are unanimously in favour of exclu.sion, and this applies to both skilled and un-
skilled laboui'. Traders of all kinds in the cities, towns and \illages are also largely in
favour of exclusion. Farmers actually engaged in agriculture, fruit-growers, white and
Indian fishermen, and a large majority of the employers whfTare engaged in the leading
industries, are in favour of high restriction or total prohibition. The general feeling is
further evidenced by the action of the Legislature which for many years has been prac-
tically unanimous in favour of exclusion, and has endeavoured to exclude them from
public works and all works receiving public grants ; municipal corporations also exclude
them from corporation work ; and lastly, ministers, missionaries and clergy, with few
exceptions, favour either further restriction or prohibition of further immigration of this
class. The suggestion that the feeling of antagonism is confined to the labouring classes,
is wholly without foundation.

270 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2. EDWARD VII. ,_ A. 1902

CHAPTER XXIII. TRADE WITH CHINA.

The evidence adduced aud the experience of the United States in this regard in-
.dicate that further restriction or exclusion will not affect the trade of Canada with
China.

CHAPTER XXIV. ANTI-CHIXESE LEGISLATION ELSEWHERE.

In the United States.

Wherever Chinese labour has come in competition with white labour, agitation has
commenced and restrictive legislation followed. In 1850 Chinese were welcomed to
California : now there is an Exclusion Act and treaty, which absolutely prohibits the
coming of Chinese labour into the United States.

Hawaiian Islands.

In 1898 the United States proliibited the immigration of Chinese into the Hawaiian
Islands except upon such conditions as are now or may hereafter be allowed bv the laws
of the United States.

The Philippine Islands.

The report of the Philippine Commission 1900, declares that the Chinese are one
of the principal causes of the commercial and industrial Ijiick wardness of the Archipelago.

Australia.

The Australian Colonies prior to the formation of their present commonwealth had
passed restrictive legislation against the Chinese, and in the first session of the first
parliament of the commonwealth, an .Alien Immigration Restriction Act has Iseen
passed.

New Zealand.

Since 1881 increased restriction has from time to time been imposed against the
immigration of Chinese until in 1896 the immigration was limited to the proportion of
one to every hundred tons tonnage of the vessel, with a poll tax of £100 ; and in 1899
an Immigration Restriction Act was passed on the lines of the Natal Act.

In 1888 the Australian Colonies, New Zealand and Tasmania urged upon the Im-
perial Government that diplomatic action should be taken to obtain from China a treaty
.similar to that then existing between China and the United States, under which practi-
cal exclusion was enforced, but that much desired result was not obtained.

CHAPTER XXV. — EFFECT OF EXCLUSION IN COAST STATES.

Practical exclusion has been in force in the United States since 1894, without an}'
injurious effect upon the industries or upon trade with China. It has had the further
effect of steadily decreasing the number of Chinese in those States, who have given
place to a rapidly increasing white population. The question is regarded as settled in
the Coast States and the Exclusion Law satisfactory and beneficial.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

THE CENSUS A COMPARISON.

271

Briti.sh Columbia, with a population of 177,272 has 16,000 Chinese (estimated)
while Washington State with a pojiulation of -518,000, has 3,629.

Oregon with a population of 413,000 has 10,397 Chinese, and California with a
population of 1,485,053, has 45,753 Chinese.

The conditions in Washington and the natural industries more nearly resemble
those of British Columbia than do the other States.

The City of Victoria has nearly as many Chinese as the entire State of Washington,
and nearly twenty times as many Chinese as Seattle in proportion to population.

New Westminster with a population of about 6,000 contains more Chinese than
Seattle with a population of nearly 100,000, while Tacoma with a population of about
60,000 has no Chinese whatever.

Further comparisons might readily be made, but the above clearlv indicates the
large proportion of Chinese in British Columbia as compared with the Coast States.

In British Columbia they have increased during the last decade from 8,910 to
16,000 (estimated). In the three Coast States they have decreased from 85,272 to
59,779.

CHINESE IMMIGRATION.

British
Columbia.

Other. I Total.

1885-6

1886-7

1887-8

1888-9

1889-1890

1890-1

1891-2

1892-3

Registrations for leave

1893-4

1894 5

189.5-6

1896-7

1897-8

1898-9

1899-1900

1900-1

To Oct. 31, 1901

To Dec. 31

211

116

296

764

1,065

2,108

3,264

2,199

' 2,044

1,382

1,722

2,417

2,137

4,279

3,880

1,.338

983

617

375

8
3
9
4
6
8
45

lOH

351

149

Not given.

31,197

977

Capitation
Tax at .S50.

211

124
299
773
1,069
2,114
3,272
2,244

2,087
1,440
1,762
2,447
2,175
4,385
4,231
1,487
*1,031
*64S
*375

10,550

6,200

14,950

38,650

53,4.50

105,700

163.600

112,200

Certificates
Exempt. of

Leave.

104,350
72,000
88.100
122,350
108.750
219,250
211,550

177.450

64,800
37,500

32,174

, 1,711,400

Less refunds,
IS18,900.

112

22
22
24
24
17
17
26

12
15

447

827

734

923

1,267

1,671

1,617

'2,168

106

J,171

666

473

697

768

802

859

1,102

1,204

670
Not given.

* At SlOO

Certificate.s of leave 9.313

Registrations for leave 8,412

Certificates of leave outstanding and lapsed from 1885 to present

time 4,850

Registrations for leave, C. I. 9, valid at present time I,0'i6

Note— 1,975 Chinese entered British Columbia in the year 1901 who paid the capitation tax of $100.

272

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Return showing Chinese entered for the purpose of passiui;- in transitu through
Canada and those passed out who have ax-rived in transitu from other ports.

Year.

British CoLL'MBi.i.

Othkr Phovi.nces.

Entered.

Pas.s;ed out.

Entered.

Passed out.

1887-88

3,309

3C2

233

720

3,650

2,316

1,024

2,048

4,035

2,455

2,177

1,885

1,694

729

1
3,570
1,108
1,076

983
2,511
1,8153
1,437
1,456
1,599
1,349
1,503
1.860
1,907

690

1S88-89 .

1889 90

1890-91

1891-92

1892-93 :

1893-94

1894-95

11
118
226
182
208
438
349

ii'

596
834
422

189i-9(>

1896-97

1897 98..

744

1,587
1.118

1898 99

326 1 723

1899-1900

1900-01 .

223 ; 323

441 1 236

1901-Oct. 31, 1902

230 j 200

20.638

23,521

2,752

0,794

Total entered

Total passed out.

29,390
30,315

CHAPTER XXVII.— CONCLUSION.

1. The advent of Chinese in large numbers into Britisli Columbia dates back to the
early sixties, and the discovery of the rich placer fields of Cariboo and Cassiar. Later
when this industry waned numbers of the Chinese left the country, but some remained.
During the con.struction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, however, large numbers again
came in, so that as the great industries began to develop there was always a supply of
cheap labour available, first the Indians, then the Chinese, and lately the Japanese.
The Indians in the sawmills were gradually displaced by the Chinese, who in turn are
now being superseded by Japanese. Some of the employers in effect said : we have
always had cheap labour, and we require cheap labour to carry on our industries ; it
doesn't matter what kind it is, whether it be white, black or yellow, so long as it is
cheap and in sufficient supply.

Will the prohibition of further immigration of Chinese labour injuriously affect the
various industries of the country? To answer this question satisfactorily each industry
must be examined separately, regard being had to its peculiar position and special requii'e-
ments ; and this has been done in every case with great care. The various chapters in
which the several industries are dealt with give the e-vidence and findings relating to
each. A few of the facts may, however, be here indicated.

In the important matter of land clearing, farming and settlement, the view of those
who are especially interested (excepting only the large land owners, and those who i;ent
their land to Chinese, and very few others, who cannot be said to look to farming ex-
clusively for their livelihood) is voiced in the one word, — exclusion.

In the mining industries, which in 1901 produced twenty millions, the Chinese con-
tributed to the production of the gold f)utput a small fraction of the whole, confined
almost exclusively to the placer mines. They are not employed in the collieries in the
interior ; on the coast they are employed for surface work, but not underground, except
in the Union Mine.s. A point not to be lost .sight of is the fact that the manager of

Oy CHINESE AXn JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 273

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

the Company that is the latest exporter of coal, where they are employed, is in favour
of total exclusion, and thinks the remedy ought to be applied at once. The president of
the other collieries of the coast where they are employed, is in favour of higher restric-
tion and the Natal Act, as indicated in his official utterance as Premier of the Province ;
on the other hand the general manager of this company favours unrestricted immigra-
tion. Chinese are not employed in the coal mines of the Pacific Coast States.

The lumber industry must be treated, for clearness, under two heads, — 1. The
export trade ; 2. The local and eastern trade. The export trade is done by five mills,
of which three represent 97 per cent, and of the three, the largest exporter (nearly
one-half the total in 1900), is the only one that employs Chinese to any extent, and the
manager of this large concern is in. favour of total exclusion ; the next largest employs
only some nine or ten as cooks, and the third only employs some five or six, and
these not directly in connection with the export trade ; so that for this part of the
industry it is perfectly plain tliat tliey are not essential. It may be here noticed that
the exclusion of further immigration of the lalxiuring class of Chinese is desired by the
two principal exporters of lumber and coal.

The local and eastern lumber trade is in many hands, and the undoubted voice
of most of the employers examined, representing this branch of the business, is in favour
of exclusion or higher restriction.

In Washington State Chinese are not employed in the mills, and after nearly
twenty years' experience of an Exclusion Law the mill owners favour its continuance.

The shingle business in British Columbia has developed to large proportions, and
Chinese are employed in considerable numbers and are regarded as at present necessary
for the trade. The difference in cost, if white labour were employed, was estimated at
three cents per thousand. Shingles are now produced at a shade less on the American
side. It should also be noted here that this industry, which has assumed enormous
[iroportions in Washington State and Oregon, is carried on exclusively by white labour.

In the province there are 74 salmon canneries, which are owned and operated by
between forty and fiftv companies and individuals. In no other industry are the
Chinese as largely employed. Their numbers have steadily increased as the industry
developed, although by the introduction of machinery the number in proportion to the
pack has largely decreased. It is said they are peculiarly suited to the work.

The fluctuating character of this industry in respect of the supply of fish and the
market for the product, and the large number of hands required during the busy season,
deserves special mention. In no other industry is there so much uncertainty as to when
and to what extent labour mav be employed, owing to the lack of knowledge of the con-
ditions of the supplv. From the passing runs of salmon they must be caught and put
into tins with(nit delay, and the hands must be there ready to do the work. In an
emergency occasioned by an unexpectedlv heavj' run difficulty is sometimes found in
getting an immediate supply of labour. It was stated that in some cases the bulk of
the season's pack is obtained in several days. Apart from the men who are engaged in
making the tins the Chinese labour is drawn from other occupations, to which they
return as soon as the canning season is over. The Chinese being available and easily
conveyed to the canneries, this industry was established and carried forward more with
regard to advantageous location for obtaining fish than to obtaining a supply of white
labour.

In the adjoining State of Washington the industry was first established in the year
1892. Chinese are also there employed, but not to the same extent as in British
Columbia. In the last fe^^• years the development of this inrlustry in Washington State
has been very great, many millions being expended in plant, and the pack now exceeds
that of Britisli Columbia. This development has taken place during the years of the
Chinese Exclusion Act in the United States. In most cases their canneries are located
with a view to convenience in securing available labour of girls and youths from the
adjacent towns and villages, who take the place of the Chinese for inside work to a
certain extent.

British Columbia, with a white jmiiulatioii of 129,000, has about 16,000 Chinese;
while Washington State, with a white population of -518,000, has 3,600 Chinese, where
.54—18

274 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

about 2,500 are eiuployed in tlie tanneries : some are brt)uglit uji from Poitland, while
some of tlie Chinese in Wasliington State go to the Alaska canneries.

The white fishermen who are numerically a great factor in the industry, ard deeply
interested in the success of the canneries that ati'ord the only market for their fish, are
practically unanimous in their opposition to any further innnigration of the Chinese,
notwithstanding the fact that if the canneries had to pay a higher price for inside labour,
the price of fish would be most likely to be affected by it.

We repeat the closing statement contained in the summary of the chapter where
this matter is fully dealt with : —

Had there been no Chinese in the country, it is probable that the whites and
Indians would ha\e been trained to the business, and would haye furnished sutficient
supply, but the almost exclusiye employment of Chinese through their boss contractor,
who naturally employs his own countrymen, where ayailable, has practically .shut the
door against whites and Indians and pre\"ented them from learning the business.

The exclusion of further Chinese is not likely to seriously aflect this industry, for

(a.) There are sufficient Chinese already in the proyince to meet the demand for
years to come, haying regard to the \-iews generally expressed by witnesses as to a
maximum de\elopment haying been reached, and the possible dejiletion of supply and
the number of Chinese now in the proyince.

(h.) The change will be so gradual as to be all but imperceptible, and may be met
lay the employment of whites and Indians.

(c.) On the Sound where the Exclusion Act has been in force for many years and
the number of Chinese has decreased in the last decade, it has not retarded the deyelop-
ment of this industry, but on the contrary this industry has i-eceiyed its chief expansion
during this period ; many millions having been invested therein within the last three or
four years, and this, although Chinese are employed both im the Sound and in Alaska,
as they are in British Columbia.

There is nothing disclosed in the e\idence as it aft'ects this industry which I'enders
it inexpedient, if otherwise desirable, to exclude the further innnigration of Chinese into
the Dominion.

As cooks and domestics the Chinese are distributed throughout the whole province.

As cooks and assistants in hotels and restaurants, on steamboats, in camps, itc, it
may be safely said that they outnumber all others.

The wages they receive are equal at least to what is paid usually for the same class
of labour in eastern Canada. They are regarded favourably by their employers,
principally because of their sobriety, machine-like regularity, economy, and their
disposition to remain with one employer. Complaints were freijuently made of the
instability and uncertainty of white men as cooks, and it was stated that the employ-
ment of Chinese was a necessary result. There can be little doubt, however, that relief
Avouldbe found in a great measure by a withdrawal of the Chinese fiom this occupation,
in consetiuence of which a better class of men would become available for positions
where men only could be employed.

In domestic service they are found valuable, useful and convenient. The wages
paid to them are as high at least as are paid to white women and girls in British
Columbia, and higher than is usually paid for similar services in eastern Canada. In
addition to the ordinary work performed by servant girls, thej- do many small chores
and services which the former cannot do. They are punctual, obedient, and desirous
«)f pleasing theii' employer. They generally accept the discipline of a strict mistress,
and do not readily take oti'enee at the petty annoyances of housework. There are no
«|uestions of social rank and privileges. The Chinaman does his work well iuv his
employer for so much money, and there their interest in each other may be said to
cease.

Servant girls are ditficult to obtain in British Columbia ; they are not there in
large numbers. Even family nurse girls are hard to secure. The problem of securing
domestic servants is not, however, confined to British Columbia, though the extreme
scarcity there can undoubtedly be largely accounted fi>r by the presence of the Chinese.
The source fiom which a suj)]ily would be expected is shut ofi". It is not usually the

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGBA TION 275

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

family of the skilled niechaiiic or of tliose wlio earn high wages that provide this class
of labour : it is obtained from the families of those who for one reason or another do
not enter the higher paid callings, and who are forced to look for employment in the
avenues of labour whicli are occupied by the Chinese. It would not I'equire a great
number of families of the labouring class to provide servants to the number of Chinese
now employed in domestic work, and from these again in any new country is the hope
of a steadily increasing population and permanent settlement of the country to be looked
for.

A report of the Seattle Bureau of Labour furnishes an interesting example of how
this class of ser\ ants may find employment, and at the same time supply the demand of
those retjuiring this class of labour.

With reference to the other industries, trades and callings, reference may be had to
the chapters where they are treated. In the great majority of cases and with the great
mass of people, the Chinese are not desired and not requii'ed, and are regarded as a great
injur}' to the country.

The supply of this class of labour already in the country is sufficient to meet the
demand for all the industries, not only for the present, but for years to come.

There is one consideration as it affects the various industries that ought not to be
lost sight of. Exact data from the census is not before us, but in a total estimated
population of 177,000, of whom 129,000 only are whites, the presence of about 16,000
adult unmarried males, trading with their own people and importing largely their own
food, and finally taking the greater part of their earnings with them to China, is a vital
matter. Under normal conditions this number of adult males ought to represent a
population of from .50,000 to 75,000 at the least, of men, women and children, requiring
homes, and creating a demand which would affect favourably every industry, trade and
calling in the province. This great ad\antage which ought to flow from the development
of the country's natural resources is thus largely cui'tailed b}' the employment of this
cla.ss of labour.

.Some empl<.)yers call attention to the fact that certain industries ci'eate a larger
demand for unskilled labour during the summer season, e. g. placer mining and
prospecting ; timber logging on the coast and land clearing is carried forward more
vigorously in summer, owing to climatic conditions ; the canning season is almost
wholly confined to six or eight weeks in summer, and at the same time the demand for
farm help is at its height.

Your Commissioners are of the opinion that the interests of the country are not
promoted to the best advantage by any undue stimulus to one or more particular
industry in the way of cheaji labour in unlimited supply ; rather is it better that any
industry should not (juickly reach its maximum point of development, but that the
industries of the country as a whole sh(^uld be encouraged and built up, all inter-
dependent, each supporting the other as far as possible in the elements of production ;
and that those who find employment therein should be permanent settlers with homes,
and I'ecognizing the responsiljilities anri discharging the duties of citizenship.

The great industries should be al:)le to adjust themselves by a gradual change from
the employment of Chinese to those of our own race who come in to take their places.
There is a surplus in the country now, excepting for a very short time in the summer
season, and hundreds in winter are unemployed, ready to enter any avenue of unskilled
labour that may open.

In order' that the situation in British Columbia nuiy be fairly understood it should
be mentioned here that relatively speaking, there is at present a small fraction of the
population engaged in agricultural jiursuits or in industries kindred thereto. Employ-
ment is chiefly given by the mines, fisheries and lumbering industry from which spring
auxiliary enterprises, trade, and the emplo^nnents attendant and necessary to those
engaged directly as primaiy j)roflucers. The character of these resources, generally
speaking, requires a large amount of capital for their successful pi-osecution. There are
few in the pro\-ince who may be termed capitalists ; the money invested is largely from
without the jirovince. From this it will be observed that the employers as a class are
numei-icallv few in number. From ann>ngst this class are the only avowed opponents of
54 — 18i

276 REPORT OF ROYAL COJIfMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

further restriction or exclusion, and the evidence does not disclose any great number of
them ; theii- objection was solely on economic grounds. They were opposed to granting
the Chinese the rights of citizenship or to encouraging the assimilation of the races.

The repeated expression of opinion by the provincial legislature may be regarded
as a fair reflex of public opinion as a whole on this question. Frequently it was asserted
that one of the chief objections to the Chinese was that they would work for too low a
wage, that the question was one largely between capital and labour. The mere appear-
ance of this class of labour, standing as a wedge between the emploj-er and the labourer,
is sufficient in itself to arouse the antipathy of the latter. Whatever may have been
their relations in the past in this respect, it cannot now be denied that industrial pro-
gress and peace can only be assured by bringing the employer and white labourer closer
together, and by tlieir understanding each other better. By the gradual removal of the
Chinese — one of the cliief estranging elements — the industries should not suffer, and a
further approach to a better understanding between the employer and the employed be
the result.

2. In the older pro\dnces the disturbing element introduced by Chinese coolie labour
has not yet been felt to any serious extent. Immigrants who come to other parts of-
Canada come to make it their home and meet on an equal footing. In British Columbia
this normal condition of equal opportunity is disturbed by an immigration so different
in kind, in ci\'ilizatit)n, in manner and cost of living, that it puts the unskilled working
man at a disadvantage in every avocation in life where he meets this class of labour,
and he meets it everywhere. He insists that he does not seek to disturb normal con-
ditions but to restore them, and to be placed on a common footing and given an equal
chance to obtain a living for himself and his family.

A great need of British Columbia at the present time is actual settlers, and
especially upon the land. A settler with small means can only afford to clear his land
by utilizing the wood and timber upon it and by getting outside work. Under present
conditions he is cut off from this assistance from either source. Will he realize from his
wood and timber or find work in the lumber mills, shingle mills, or as surface worker at
the mines? In all these and other occupations where unskilled labour is employed he
finds the Chinese, working at a wage that bars him out. It is not correct to say that
there is plenty of work for unskilled labour, unless you add ' at the wage for which the
Chinamen work.' and even then it is not true, because in most cases Chinamen work in
gangs under a Chinese boss, where white men are not wanted ; and for a part of the
year numbers of Cliinese are also out of employment.

Another feature of this class of labour is that it creates a dislike, amounting to
contempt, for the work itself in whatever calling it is employed. The majority of work-
ing men will not, if they can avoid it, work with Chinamen ; they feel that they would
be degraded in the eyes of their associates by so doing. Nor is the dislike of those pur-
suits in which Chinese are engaged confined to the adult labourer, it is shared by the
youth of the country as well, and labour is degraded where it ought to be honoured.

The constant presence of this class, with hundreds being added to their number
every year, is a real danger to the very existence of the white working man. He
becomes dissatisfied and in many cases leaves the province, or if he remains, advises his
friends not to come. The satisfied settler is the best immigration agent, but it was
evident that this important influence is directed against immigration of that class of
settlers of which the country is most in need, and solely because of the presence of this
class of labour.

That they are employed in many industries is readily understood. They are noted
for faithful observance of contracts, they are docile, plodding and obedient to serNdlity,
easily obtained through boss contractors, accept accommodation unfit and intolerable to
a white man, working in gangs under a Chinese boss who has the conti'act, and who
makes his profits chiefly in furnishing them supplies at a high price.

' A glance at the conditions under which the white workingman and the Chinese
compete will show how unfair this competition is. The one is expected to discharge the
ordinary duties of citizenship to himself, his family and his country ; rent must be paid,
food provided, and the family flecently clothed : yet he is put in competition with one

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 277

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

who does not assume any of these duties, and who lives under conditions insufferable to
a white man. Fifty cents a month or less pays the rent, a few cents a day supplies the
food, he has no home, wife or fanaily in this country ; he shows no desire to change, he
is well content as he is until such time as he can return to China and take his savinijs
with him. Fifty years or more on this continent has made little or no change in him
or his manner of living.

The fact is established beyond all doubt, that under present conditions the white
labouring man cannot compete with the Chinese and decently support his family. It is
whiilly illusory to say that wages are fair for the ordinarv working man. He may get
wurk at odd jobs which a Chinaman cannot do, but the real avenues for unskilled
labour that are aflbrded by the natural industries of the province are practically closed
against liim, while the cost of living is very much higher than in the east.

The workingman is further embittered by the fact that not only is he compelled to
compete under these unfair conditions, but he also finds the places which he has a right
to expect his sons and daughters to fill, occupied by Chinese, and his children growing
up in idleness and despising honest labour. Many .parents and others expressed concern
for what they regard as the dark future for the youth of the province. We found an
intense feeling, taking the form of indignant protest, against the wrong thus done to the
rising generation. In eastern Canada it is not so ; there the youths are employed in
the lighter work connected with the leading industries ; they thus become familiar with
tlie business, acquire the knowledge necessary, and gradually work up to positions re-
quiring more skill, thus providing for the transition from boyhood to manhood, giving
thoroughness to the man and attbrding a constant supply of trained hands ready to meet
the demand for this class of labour, and promoting the stability of the industry.

The above applies with greater or less foi'ce in tlie case of women and giils who
have to seek a livelihood by their own work.

It was urged upon us by some that the effect of this cheap class of labour is to in-
crease the number of skilled labourers employed and to increase their wages. The
skilled mechanic did not admit this contention to be true, and declared if it were true
he did not want the advantage. There ought to be no distinction in opportunity be-
tween different classes of labour, and besides, the fate of the unskilled labourer to-day
may in time be the fate of those eng^ed in the more skilled employments. In many
lines the encroachment has commenced. From -the position of the labouring man the
admission of this class of labour is unfair, unjust and deadly in its effect ; unfair because
it does not affect all alike ; unjust because it robs the poorest of half his income from
his only capital, and deadly because it strikes at home life and the wage-earning class.

Labour in eflfect says : You guard this country against being made a slaughter
market for cheap goods, where the manufacturer is able to limit supply and fix prices ;
yet you ask me to accept conditions where the supply is unlimited and the prices not
fixed. You admit this competitor is not my equal ; is not now and never will become a
citizen ; you debar him from municipal work and deprive him of the franchise. You
admit that I cannot live decently upon what he lives upon, nor work for the wages he
works for, yet you ask me to submit to this unequal and degrading competition and at
the same time expect me to assume and discharge all the duties of good citizenship.
There ought to be some comity in tliis matter. I ask that normal conditions be restored
by preventing any further immigration of this class of labour.

3. British Columbia is especially favoured by nature iii the versatility and richness of
her natural resources, which it is believed Canadians are able to develop, and which if
properly applied are capable of supporting a vast and permanent population. This
nation building should be based upon a sound foundation of good citizenship, in which
every useful employment is honourable, and where the dignity of labour is recognized
and preserved.

If the end to be sought is the building up of the nation, and not the exploitation
of these resources, the one vital interest to be secured above all others is an immigration
of settlers of whom we may hope to make Canadians, in the highest and best sense of
that word. That this object ought to be the one' in view is supported by the recent
public utterance of a very distinguished personage, when he said : —

278 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD Vi;., A. 1902

"No one who has the privilege which we have had during our tour could tail to be
struck with one all-prevailing and pressing demand — the want of population. E\en in
the oldest of our colonies were abundant signs of this need, — boundless tracts of counti v
yet unexplored, hidden mineral wealth calling for development, vast expanses of \-irgin
soil ready to \'ield profitable crops to the settler ; anil these can be enjoved under con-
ditions of healthy living, liberal laws, free institutions, in exchange foi- the overcrowded
cities and the almost hopeless struggle for existence which, alas, too often is the lot of
many in the old eountrv. But one condition, and one onlv, is made bv our colonial
govermuents, and that is — send us suitable inunigrants. I would go further and appeal
to my fellow countrvmen at home to prove the strength of the attachment of the mother-
land to her children, by sending them only of her best. By this means we may still
further .strengthen, or at all events pass on unimpaired, that pride of race, that unity of
sentiment and purpose, that feeling of common loyalty and obligation which, knit
together, alone can maintain the integrity of our Empire."'

How far do the Chinese of the labour or coolie class approach to this standard ?
They come from southern China, drawn from the poorer classes, reared in poverty where
a few cents a day represent the earnings whicli must suffice for a family ; accustomed
to crowd together in small tenements or huts, close, unhealthy and filthy ; with customs,
habits and modes of life fixed and unalterable, resulting from an ancient and effete
civilization, with no desire to conform to western ideas. They form, on their arrival, a
community within a community, separate and apart, a foreign substance within, but not
of our body politic, with no love for our laws and institutions : a people that will not
assimilate or become an integral part of our race and nation. With their habits of
overcrowding, and an utter disregard of all sanitary laws, they are a continual menace
to health. From a moral and social point of ■view, livdng as they do without home life,
.schools or churches, and so nearly approaching a servile class, their effect upon the i-ejst
of the community is bad. They pay no fair proportion of the taxes of the country.
They keep out immigrants who would become permanent citizens, and create conditions
inimical to labour and dangerous to the industrial peace of the community where they
come. They spend little of their earnings in the country and trarle chiefly with their
own people. They fill the places that ought to be occupied bv permament citizen.s,
many of whom leave the country on their account.. They are unfit for full citizenship,
and are permitted to take no part in n^unicipal or pro\-incial government. Upon this
point there was entire unanimity. They are not and will not become citizens in any
sense of the term as we understand it. They are so nearly allied to a servile class that
they are obnoxious to a free community and dangerous to the state.

Situated as tliis province is, upon the seaboard, it should possess a stalwart, homo-
geneous and united population, capable and willing to defend the country in ca.se of
attack. In this regard the Chinese are a real source of weakness.

It is incredible that British Columbia, admitteilly one of the richest countries in the
world in natural resources, — with its \ast forests, unsurpassed fisheries, minerals of all
kinds, and large tracts of delta and other lands suitable for agriculture, — cannot be
developed without the assistance of Chinese labour. Your Commissioners believe that
it is impossible for the province of British Columbia to take its place and part in the
Dominion as it ought to do, unless its population is free from any taint of servile labour
and is imbued with a sense of the duties and responsibilities appertaining to citizenship.

This class of immigration falls far short of that standard so essential to the well-
being of the country. From a Canadian standpoint it is injurious, and in the intere.st
of the nation any further immigration ought to be prohibited. The great industries
will not suffer. There is a surplus of this class of labour at the present time ready to
enter any avenue of unskilled labour that may open. If no more were admitted the
.supply is equal to the demand for years to come, and the change will be .so gradual as
to be almost imperceptible. There are more Chinese today in Victoria and adjacent
thereto, than in the whole State of Washington. The Chinese labourers who are already
in the country will be benefitted by the change. Trade with China will rather be
promoted than otherwise, bv removing a cause of friction, as has been founfl to Ix' the
case in the United States in their trade with China since the Exclusion Act. The

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 279

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

interests of the Empire can best be served by buildiiif^ up a stroiiLf mikI united Canada,
able not only to defend herself, but afford help if need be to the Mother Country.
Whatever jternianently weakens British Columlna weakens the Dominion and the
Empire, and no material ^ain to individual interests ought to weigh foi- one moment
against this injury to the nation.

Ttu' right to discriminate against foreigners has been recognized in o\xv tariff' and
immigration laws, and it has recently been lield by the higliest Court of Appeal for the
British Emjiire, that an alien has no right which can be enforced by action, to enter
British territory. (,SVv Musgrove to. Chun Teeong Toy, Appeal Cases, 1891, page 272.)
In this connection it may not be out of place to call attention to the recent promise
made by the British government to appoint a commission to inquire into the whole
([uestion of immigration into Great Britain, with a view of excluding undesirable
immigrants.

If it could be said with truth that the effect upon tlie laboui- class of Chinese
coming to British Columbia was to raise them up and to make of them good citizens,
and more rapidly bring them under the influence of Christian teaching, it might be
urged, from a humanitarian standpoint, tliat a duty de\()lved vipon this nation to receive
tliem ; but a refei'ence to the evidence, and especially to that of the many Christian
teachers who were called, clearly shows that such is not tlie fact. From a moral and
Christian standpoint the Chinese labourers in British Columbia as a class are not
improved. Those who are here, however, are entitled to receive all the pi'oteetioii
which our law can give.

i. In reference to the representations made by the people and Legislature of British
Columbia, wherein it is alleged :

" That the province is flooded with an undesirable class of people, non-as.similative
and most detrimental to the wage-earning classes of the people of the province, and that
this extensive immigration of orientals is also a menace to the health of the community ;

" That there is probability of a great disturbance to the economic conditions in the
province and of grave injury being caused to the working classes by the large influx of
labourers from China, as the standard of living of the masses of the people in that
country differs so widely from the standard prevailing in the province, thus enabling
them io work for a much less wage ;

"That it is in the interests of the Empire that the Pacific province of the
Dominion should be occupiefl by a large and thoroughly British population rather than
by one in which the number of aliens would form a large proportion ;"

We find that these representations are substantially true and urgently call for a
i-emedy.

We also find that the increase of the capitation tax from .f50 to $100 is ineffective
and inadei[uate.

Your Commissioners are of opinion that the further immigration of Chinese labourers
into Canada ought to be prohibited ;

That the most desirable and effective means of attaining this enfl is by treaty sup-
ported by suitable legislation ;

That in the meantime and until this can be obtained the capitation tax sliould be
raised to !$.50O.

The only point upon which your Commissioners could not agree is the date when
the capitation tax of §500 ought to come into effect. The Chairman and Commissioner
Foley are of opinion that the capitation tax should be raised to .foOO at once, while
Commissioner Munn is of opinion that •'?300 should be imposed for two years, and if
a prohibitive treaty be not obtained within that period, that it be then raised to !?.500.

R. C. CLUTE, Chairman,
D. J. MUNN,
C. FOLEY.

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

APPENDIX.

Addresses of Counsel, Mr. C. Wilson, K.C., for the Province of British
Columbia, and Mr. A. D. Taylor for the Chinese Board of Trade.

Extracts from the Report of the Philippine Commission.

Hon. Oliver P. IStorton's Minoritj^ Report, IT. S. Commission, 187iJ.

ADDRESS TO THE ROYAL COMMISSION OF C. WILSON, K.C.

Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Co.mmission ;

At the close of the labours of tlie Commission in this province, may I be permitted
to express my keen appreciation of the unvarying courtesy, urbanity and patience
(sometimes under trying circumstances) of every member of the Commission. From the
distinguished lawyer who presides, one not unnaturally expected the exercise of high
judicial qualities, and certainly there has been no disappointment. But it was a plea-
sure to find that those members of the Commission, whose lives have been passed in other
pursuits, were also capable of exercising judicial duties in such a highly acceptable
manner. So exhaustive, in fact, lias the e.xamination of the Commission been, so sincere
a desire to ascertain the whole truth been manifested, that the duties of counsel have
been greatly lessened. For myself, I have carefully followed the direction given at the
outset of our labours not to put a question to a witness unless it would elicit a new fact.

The question of Chinese and .Japanese immigratitm naturally divides itself into five
classes : (1) The economic or industrial, (2) the social, (3) the moral, (4) the religious,
(5) the national or political. I only propose to deal \\'ith the first and the last, and, to
clear the grovmd may say that I have no idea of ad\ocating expulsion, but do propose to
advocate a policy of restriction which will amount to absolute exclusion, and to show by
the evidence that further admission is not expedient in the interest of any industry, and
is absolutely dangerous from the national or political standpoint. I exclude the social,
moral and religious aspects, not because they are unimportant, but, important as they
are, and necessary for the well being of the state, they are dwarfed by the grave and
serious character of the other two aspects of the question, and are not properly subject
to legislative control.

It will be obvious from what has been said that it will not be necessary to discuss
the fact of their personal cleanliness, coupled with an utter disregard of the laws of
sanitation, at any length. Neither will it be necessary to argue that as servants they
are not faithful, sober, fairly honest and industrious. I propose to found my position
upon the proposition that no industry has been called into existence by their presence,
but that being here they have been made use of. That they will gradually encroach
ujion and exclude the white worker from fields of labour now exclusively occupied, and
rightly occupied by him, and that living as they do under conditions and in a manner
intolerable to our own people, the nature of the competition is an exceedingly unfair
one. That the strength of a people depends on the good condition and the intelligence
of the masses.

281

282 SEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The foundation of all social order is based upon a \'igoroais and intelligent people,
and the State cannot long endure whose foundation rests not upon those of its own race
and kind, but upon a race not only alien in so far as their birth is concerned, but of a
different type of humanity and civilization, who care nothing for our institutions,
nothing for our laws, except in so far as they aft'ect their own temporary welfare ; a
people alien in manners and customs, who are not homogeneous, who do not assimilate
with us, who would not if thev could, and who could not if they would, who are absolutely
indifferent to the well-being of the state, who expect to return to their own land eitliei'
dead or alive, and whate\-er virtues they possess have also characteristics which render
it very undesirable that they should ever become members of our bodv politic.

In the time allotted to me to sum vip the evidence on behalf of the province of
British Columbia, I may mention that there are two ways of dealing with that question.
One would be to wait until the shorthand writer's notes had been transcribed, and then
to make a careful and exhaustive analysis of the evidence, which would carry conviction
fco the mind of anj' one who chose to verify the references and take the trouble to study
the subject. The other, and that is the method which I propose to adopt, it being the
only one that I can adopt within the time, will be to state the effect that the evidence
has had upon my mind, and to endeavour as well as I possibly can to impress the minds
of the C'ommissif)ners with the view which, in consequence of the evidence, I entertain,
and which I may say, to put it brieHy, is : That the immensely prejionderating mass
of the evidence is in favour of such a measure of restriction as to amount to absolute
exclusion. I may state at the outset that I have not the slightest desire to address the
Commission in such a way as to give rise to the inference that the evidence, while point-
ing to total exclusion, is calculated in any way to disturb our political or commercial
relations with either Japan or China. We simply object to a connnon interchange of
labourers, using that word in its wider sense.

Before entering upon the general question, I desire to say a few words with respect
to the position assumed by my learned friend, Mr. Cassidy, who represented the Japanese.
If I have grasped his idea rightly, then he [)rimarily put it on the ground that it would
l>e a highly improper thing, having regard to the position assumed in the family of
nations by the empire of Japan, to pass any measures calculated in the slightest degree
to interfere with the connnercial relations existing between that empire and ourselves,
or placing any barrier on freedom of intercourse between the subjects of that empire and
the subjects of King Edward. China certainly is not one of the nations entitled to
invoke international law in favour of the unrestricted right of all classes of its people to
enter the territory of another nation. The e\-ents of the past year show clearly that
that empire is not even able to enforce within its own borders the simplest rules of
international obligation. I am unable to advance any opinion whether or no Japan is
one of the modern civilized states that regard the certain rules of conduct, called inter-
national law, as being binding on it. I refer to the following passage from ilr. Hall's
book on the subject as casting some doubt upon it. At page 12 he says : ' It is scarcely
necessary to point out that as international law is a product of the special civilization of
modern Europe, and forms a highly artificial system, of which the principles cannot be
supposed to be understood or recognized by countries differently civilized, such states
only can be presumed to be subject to it as are inheritors of that civilization. They
have lived and are living under law, and a positive act of withdrawal would be required
to free them from its restraints. But states outside European ci\ilization must formally
enter into the circle of law-governed countries. They must do something with the
acquiescence of the latter, or of some of them, which amounts to an acceptance of the
law in its entirety beyond all possibility of misconstruction. It is not enough, conse-
quentl)', that they shall enter into arrangements by treaty identical with arrangements
made by law-governed powers, nor that they shall do acts, like sending and receiving
permanent embassies, which are compatible with ignorance or rejection of law. On the
other hand, an express act of accession can hardly be looked upon as requisite. When
a new state comes into existence its position is regulated by like considerations. If by
its origin it inherits European civilization, the presumption is so high that it intends
to conform to law, that the first act purporting to be a state act which is done by it.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 283

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

unaccompanied by warnini; of intention not to conform, must be taken as indicating
an intention to conform, and brings it consequently within the sphere of law. If, on
the other lianrl, it falls \>y its origin into the class of states outside European civilization,
it can, of course, only leave them by a formal act of the kind already mentioned. A
tendency has shown itself of late to conduct relations with states, which are outside the
sphere of international law, to a cert<iin extent in accordance with its rules, and a
tendency has also shown itself on the part of such states to expect that European coun-
tries shall behave in conformity with the standard which they ha\'e themselves set up."

Mr. Cassidy also put it upon another ground. That is, that our refusal of
intercourse with them, and our suggestions that they do not assimilate with
us, and that we would not assimilate with them, was not calculated to promote
that good feeling which should exist between the two nations. Now, I disavow any
intention of casting anj' reflection whatsoever upon a people who have shown the readi-
ness that tlie Japanese have shown, to adopt western civilization, and who are certainly
celebrated for the politeness and courtesy with which their intercourse with Europeans
is carried on. There are mjtable instances of intermarriage between the two nations, so
that I do not put it upon that ground. My objection is that (while there are exceptions
to the I'ule) the average Japanese remains what he always was. a Japanese, and not-
withstanding tlie fact that lie may take out a certificate of naturalization in this country,
he never becomes, in truth and in fact, a Canadian, but always remains a Japanese. I
tliink further, that susceptible as tliese people are, means may readily be found Ijy those
in authority, for so arranging matters, as that the immigration of Japanese labourers
into this countrv mav be restricted without wounding their nmonr propre, and without
creating any friction between the two countries. It seems to me that it woulfl be a
gracious act on the part of the ruler of that country, if, when he found that the labourers
of his own country were unacceptable visitors to us, he forbade them from coming here.
In other words, diplomatic intercourse may result, and should result, in restriction so
far as the Japanese ai-e concerned, as a result of action on the part of their own ruler.
If, however, this cannot be achieved, then we have to act ourselves, and I flo not hesi-
tate to say that it is no new doctrine to jtate that a country not only can, but should,
when the self-preservation of any particular class of its own people becomes necessary,
prohibit the entry into the countrv of unassiuiilable and undesirable innnigrants. There
are manv instances in jiast historv not imlv of the exclusion oi the people of one nation
fi-om another, but also of the expulsion of great numbers of people : f.g'., the expulsion
of the Jews from Spain and the Huguenots from France and the Jews from Russia.

Before dealing with the industries, I clesire, however, to say a few words with
respect to sanitation and health, and to clear the ground somewhat as to some other of
the subjects that have been dealt with. The evidence indicates that both of these
oriental nations possess a very large degree of personal cleanliness, coupled with the
most utt«r disregard of those sanitary regulations which are considered by Europeans
necessary for the welfare of the connuunity. It seems somewhat singular that this
pers(mal cleanliness should be couplefl with filthiness in other directiims in the way
that it is, l)Ut it is certainly true that such is the case. The evidence of Captain Clive
PhilHps-AVoollev shows some of the mischief arising from the disregard of these regula-
tions, and Dr. "\Vade arlds meflical testimonv of the evils resulting from that disregard,
notal)ly in relati(jn to typhoid and smallpox. Dr. Eraser and other sanitary officers tell
us that con(liti(jns within the last few months have improved. I think it can be said
without dcjuljt or hesitation, that the very existence of the Commission has largely
impro\ed them, and that the coming of the Connnission into the different Chinese
quarters has tended to a general clean up, culminating in the disastrous burning of the
Chinese quarters at Union.

The industries chiefly affected by oriental immigration are ; (1) lumber : (2) fishing
and canning ; (.3) mining ; (4) domestic ser\-ice ; (5) tailoring ; (6) cigar-making ; (7)
laundry ; (8) market gardening ; and (9) boat-building. I only propose to deal at some
little length with the first four of these subjects. The other five, while of equally grave
importance with the first four, do not emplov in their business so lai-ge a number of per-
sons, and while the injury done to them is in some respects greater than in the larger

ZU REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

industries, it does not as a state question make itself so greatly felt, and the time at my
disposal does not permit me to deal with the several subjects exhaustively. I will, there-
fore, confine myself to this, that so -far as those industries are concerned, the whites have
been really driven out, and their places taken by the Chinese and Japanese, particularly
is that so with tailoring and market gardening. By the employment of improved
methods and machinery, it would appear as if the laundryman was once more beginning
to hold his own w4th his oriental competitor.

Turning now to the lumber industry. The evidence of the witnesses would seem to
show that this industry is not in a good condition, and the reason seems to be because
the price of the British Columbia product is regulated by the foreign market, and the
absence of protectitm to our own mai'ket. Again the local market seems to be largely
depending on the canning and mining industries. Depression in either wf these indus-
tries producing like depression in the lumber trade. Mr. Alexander points out most
forcibly that eighty per cent of the labour employed by them is white, more than eighty
per cent of the wages being paid to white men, the remainder being paid to the orien-
tals. His evidence may be briefly summed up to this extent, that owing to existing
conditions of the trade the cost of production cannot be increased ; in other words, to
sell profitably under existing conditions, the limit for the payment of wages has been
reached, and that to place any impediment in the way of the trade as it at present
stands, would be to exclude twenty per cent of oriental labour and eighty per cent of
white labour. In other words, the existence of this amount of white labour depends
upon the proportion of oriental labour now engaged ir? the trade. The limit of profi-
table production having been reached, they cannot afford to employ white labour at all
except by employing a certain amount, namely, 20 per cent of oriental or cheap labour.
Now, this appears to involve several verv serious propositions. First, it would appear
that the British Columbia manufacturer or lumberman has not control of the market,
and the reason assigned is Ijecause he is brought into competition with lumber mills,
chiefly the Port Blakely mill on the other side, which, it appears, employs some 300
Japs. Second, that the United States mill owners have an enormous market in their
own count?-y, from which, by i-eason of the protection which the government extends to
them, we are absolutely excluded. It would llppear, then, as if one of the chief export
mills on the other side employed Japanese labour, and it would also appear that the
very thing which the British Columbia lumberman demands, namely, cheap labour, has
created a necessity for its own existence ; for if the United States pursued the same policy
of exclusion towards the Japs as they have towards the Chinese, the competition which
the British Columbia lumberman would then meet, would lie a competition of white
labour alone, in which the same field for obtaining it \\'oukl be open to him as to the
American. The only disadvantage that he would then labour under would be the lack
of protection in his own country, an evil which it would seem admits of a very easy
remedy. That this last, the lack of protection here, owing to the repealing of the Wil-
son bill in the United States, has been a very serious e-vil, there can be no doubt. It
gives the American manufacture the advantage of his enormous home market, an equal
competition with ourselves in the genei'al markets of the world, and, lastly, the liberty
of using Canada as a slaughter or dumping ground for their surplus product. There
can be no doubt either but that the very existence of this particular class of labour, that
is, the cheapest labour that can be obtained on earth, is an inducement to the capitalists
to invest moneys in enterprises which are not necessarily productive when managed
under fair conditions with respect to the operative. In other words, it means this, the
more saw mills the more competition, the more competition the more is the price re-
duced, hence the necessity of reducing wages so that the articles may be produced and
sold at a profit. We cannot hope, but we mav as well face it, so far as this particular
industry is concerned, we cannot hope to meet their competition except by the intro-
duction of Europeans. I may add, of Europeans from the north of Europe — we do not
want them from the south of Europe — and of people from the eastern provinces, who,
being frugal, hardv, thrifty, industrious people, and whose condition would be improved
•working, not for Chinese wages, but for a fair wage which would enable them to at any
rate better their condition after coming here. I say we cannot hope to compete witli

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION

285

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

them until we have produced thi.s state of affairs, and we cannot lu'oduce tliis state of
affairs until we have adopted a policy of restriction. Mr. Jardine shows that the shingle
industry has been carried on without oriental labour, but it is idle to expect that white
labourers will come into this country when there is an abundance of oriental labour. In
the first place there is no room for them. Second, they would have to compete as to
wages with a class who live under conditions that they will not submit to ; and, third,
when once they get the idea into their head.s that certain labour is only performed by a
race, whatever their skin, we are accustomed to regard as inferior, it is certain that the
better class of European labourers will not come to this country. So long as we have
cheap labour in the prt)vince, all industries will work or level down to it. If the em-
ployer can b)' the use of cheap labour employ his capital he will surely do so. The ex-
istence of this class of labour creates a tlemand again for more, until the limit of profit-
able production is reached, or the manufacturer or producer can sell no more at a [irotit.
Turning now to the tishing industry-. I submit without any hesitation that the
evidence shows that there are quite enough orientals in the country for the successful
carrying on of that industry. The following figures show the number of cases from the
year 1894 to 1900, inclu.sive, the number of fishermen from 1896 to 1900, and the total
number employed in the industry :

Year.

Cases.

Fishermen.

Total
Employed.

Value of
Plant.

1894

1895

494,371
566,395
601,570
1.01.5,477
484,161
732,437
585,413

1896

1897

1898

1899

1900 •

3,593
4,500
4,435
4,197

4,892

14,277
19,8.50
20,695
20,037
20,062

2,197,248
2,350,260
2,480,2J5
2,145,173
2,8.39,904

Believing in the theory, that once in four years there is what is called a good year,
it is very much to be regretted that Mr. Bell-Irving who furnished these very valuable
statistics, did not give the amount of the catch in the year 1893. However, there is
sufficient material here to draw one conclusion which seems to me to be irresistible. The
number of Chinese from 1893 to the present time have increased. The value of the
plant from 1896 to 1900 has increased nearly seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars,
and the number of Chinese have increased proportif)nately with the increase in the num-
ber of canneries, yet in 1893, 1896, 1897 and 1899 more fish were put up with fewer
canneries, less capital, and fewer Chinese than in 1900. There is an additional fact, and
that is, that improved methods and machinery enable one man now to do much more
than at any other time. There being then Chinese, whites and Indians sufficient now
to carry on the industry, it would seem that the exclusion of the oriental would work
no injury. Fisheries on the Labradoi' coast are supplied with white fi.shermen. Even
this inhospitable clime finds no difficulty in obtaining its supply of white labour. New-
foundlanders are returning to their own country, leaving British Columbia rather than
settle here and compete with orientals.

If the canning industry is iKjt a pi-ofitable one, then wheiv does the money go ?
From five hundred thousand to a million cases of fish are jiroduced in the year. Some
few whites are emplovefl in the pro\inee : sujiplies are foreign. How, then, is the state
benefitted ? Upon the sujiplies, a certain amount of duty is collected by the federal
go\ernment, certain amount of taxes in the way of licenses are collected from the fish-
ermen ; but beyond the expenditure of the money that the white fishermen receive, or
the whites in the employ of canners receive, the province of British Columbia receives
no benefit whatsoever. In other words, one of our greatest provincial industries, one
for which we stand pre-eminent th^ world over, our salmon fisheries, are gradually
being depleted, and the benefit the state, that is the province, itself derives is infinit-

286 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION .

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

esimal in character. If, on the otlier hand, the canneries are profitable, \vliere does the
profit go ? No more is received by tlie wliite laliourer tlian would be received if the
canneries were unprofitable. He gets no more than the canner will reluctantly give
him, and it is only to the extent of the money which he gets and the money which he
spends, that the province in itself is in the slightest degree benefitted. Canning in the
eastern provinces is carried on by whites, and the season in some instances is veiy
little longer than it is with us — lobsters and oysters, for example. Canneries as large
as ours are run by boys and girls : equally so with the canning of fruit and vegetables.
The Chinese have grown up with the development of the canning industry. No effort
has ever been made to replace them with our own people ; and it is not because they
have any exclusive or peculiar skill in the handling or management of the work, but
.simply because it is easier to go to one boss and obtain a number of labourers than it is
to search for them individually. The process amounts to this : First, the Mhite man is
crowded out, and then it is said that the oriental is a necessity, and that the industry
cannot be conducted without him. This process is now not onlv going on in the
fisheries, but the lumber trade, and will ultimately permeate other classes of industry.

L.\ND.

Mr. Cruickshank tells us that the ordinary labourer in Manitoba becomes the settler.
Chinese are not necessary to clear the land. Men are offering to come and clear for him
as cash payments on lands they are willing to buy. The occupation of these lands would
give a constant source of supply for all the labour that canneries and mills would
require, and of the very best sort. The price of adjoining land is depreciated if occupied
by Chinese. At courts of revision men ask a induction on the ground that the Chinese
are located on adjoining land ; favt)ur any measure in the direction of exclusion. The
capable mill men here are whites who have learned their business in eastern mills, and
thev have no use for orientals in Wisconsin and Minnesota. I refer to Reeve Schoii's
evidence, which shows that many regular fishermen become settlers on the small hold-
ings in Burnaby. He has a contract to settle land, and is getting it settled by small
hiilders of forty acres each on Matsqui Prairie, and that is a good farming land. No
Chinese labour has been used on the dyke. It has been .shown that large areas of our
lands are vacant and unproductive. We lack the class that the orientals keep out.
The loss by the importation of agricultural products is something enormous — in fact it
is one of the marvels, and has been for many years one of the marvels, of our industrial
life, and if British Columbia were not one of the wealthiest countries on the face of tlie
earth, it would be bankrupt over and f)ver again by the lack of retaining the value of
that which we produce. If our fisheries are profitable, the profits go abroad. If they
are not profitable, only to the extent of the labour does it remain here ; the same with
the lumber ; the same with the mines ; the same with any other of our natural pro-
ducts : and vet all the time, although our population is increasing, and although we
have immense natural resources in the way of cultivable areas of land, we are year by
\ea,T sending thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars out of the country for the
purchase of those products, which we could readily retain ourselves. If we had only
invited that class of immigrant to our shores who would have settled on the land, whose
sons and daughters would have supplied the demand for all classes of labour for which
there is here so great a demand.

MINING.

In this industry, possibly, as far at least so rock mining is concerned, the presence
of the oriental has not been so injuriously felt. There would appear to be, so far as the
evidence before tlie Commission is concerned, no acute phase of the question in any of
the mining districts that have been ^^sited. But we may well ask ourselves why this
is. The reason is not far to seek. In the first place, owing to his own peculiar super-
.stitions, the Chinese is not a miner. That is, wlien he first comes to British Columbia,
mining is a thing absolutely unknown to him. He never saw or heard of a mine in his

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGliA TION Wl

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

life. Nu Cliiiiiuiian in his own country distiu-hs the soil for the piirpo.se of profit, save
for a£;rieultitral purposes, and it is for this reason that liis attention lias rather been
(lirectetl to st)nie of the other subjects and industi-ies already touehefl upon, notably tlie
lighter ones, which are within his strength and capacity, and reijuire -steady per.sever-
ance rather than particular skill, but there is nothing to prevent just the same acute
conditions prevailing in rock mining as prevails in the other indu.stiies, if once the
oriental becomes familiar with the work. Three causes operate to prevent this : Fir.st,
the fact that the Chinaman is not a miner as already mentioned ; second, the detemiined
effort of the white miner himself to keep him out, and, thirdly, the fact that the
employer, knowing the Chinaman's inabilitv to mine, is reluctant to employ him until
he has acquired the necessary knowledge and ex]>erience, and that he never can acquire
.so long as the w-hite ininer i-efrains from teaching him. But that he may become a
possible competitor is thoroughly exemplified by the fact .shown that he has been exten-
sively used in coal mining and also in gravel mining. Curiously enough, it is said, that
in this latter branch of business he has produced wealth — and I I'efer jiarticularly to the
evidence of Major Dupont — that he has produced wealth tliat would otherwise have
I'eniainefl untouched. I say, without hesitation, far better foi- that wealth to ha\e
remained untouched, until in the course of time it had been, or could ha\e been, made
available for the white miner, as undoubtedly it would be, when the cost of transport and
the decreased prices of provi.sions would enable him to work diggings of that class.
Examine the question for a moment. It is said that he has added something to the
wealth of the country. What is it he has done ? He never paid a license if he could
help it. He never made a record if he could a\oid it. He never paid a tax, if lie could
escape it, of any kintl. He ha.s made some small purchases of manufactured articles
that his own people don't produce. To that extent, and to that extent alone, has he
benefitted the state. For the rest, his food is Chinese ; it is hauled to the mines by
Chinese team.sters ; there consumed by a Chinese miner, who takes something out of the
earth which he never can replace, and the larger ])art of which he, without doubt,
immediately remits to his own country ; and then, it is said, that this man lias added
something to the wealth of the province of Hritish ColumVjia. I submit, on the conti'ary,
that he has extracted many millions from the province that can never be rejilaced or
restored, and that the state has recei\ed little or nothing in return.

DOMESTIC SERVICE.

One cannot shirk the ditficulty involved in the que.stion of where is the supply of
domestic service to come from. On the Anerican continent this always has been a
vexed question. It always has been a matter of great difficulty to fill the demand for
domestic service, and that it has practically driven many families out of housekeepiing,
might just as well be conceded first as last. Probably, a.s years go by, domestic service
^^'ill again come into favour, and I venture this as a reason. In former times all clas,ses
of female labour, the domestic servant was the most illy paid. The consequence of this
was that excejit among the better class of servants, Viecause grafles there are and always
have been among.st all orders of humanity and' always will be, with the excei^tion of
among the higher class of service, domestic service was very greatly looked down upon,
and even the better ])aid and highei' class servants were not regaided as being the equals
of those who gained their livelihood in some other manner. Gradually better conditions
are prevailing. To-day a domestic servant receives nearly as much per month as she
formerly recei\ed per annum. As a rule, she is an educated gii'l, she i.s better treated ;
her relationship with her employer is f if a far better character than formerly, and I have
no doubt the ultimate result will be that in the future, domestic service will again be
sought for by intelligent young girls as a projiei' and honouralile means of earning a
livelihood. Tlie remedy lies jiartly in the hands of the employer. The time has gone
by — the pity is that it evei' existed — when the comfort and convenience of the servant
could be entirely overlooked, but inasmuch as it is a class of employment that will never
stand a very high rate of wages, the source of sujiply must be from a class of females
whose circumstances in life, from a financial stand]ioiut, press upon them the necessity

288 SUPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

of earning their daily bread. Tliat class will be best reci'uited frum the children of
■white labourers who should gradually take the place of the oriental if the policy of
restriction be carried out.

It is important to observe that the policy of non-employment of orientals in the
boundary country has largely operated in their partial exclusion, or at least, to the great
diminution in their numbers. If a like policy had been adopted elsewhere, then there
can be no doubt that whites would have come in to fill the ready demand for labour.
As an illustration of this, one may lefer to Tacoma and to Mr. Houston's evidence.
At Spokane and Seattle, and with some feeling of regret may I say that the means adopted
in the town of Phcenix, in British Columbia itself is an object lessfm tt) all who care to
read the signs of the times.

Depression in commercial matters, depression in all classes of labour, following as a
matter of course, produced in 1886, bloodshed and riot, resulting in the exclusion of the
Chinese in Seattle. From tliat time on, this city has gradually grown from a
population of (5,000 or 7,000 to a population of 90,000. Now, I do not say that this
is owing entirely to the exclusion of Cliiiiese, but I do say that the startling fact remains
that in all that immense pojiulation there are only some 300 of them, and that in the
neighbouring state of Washington, the people there have managed to build up that
immense city in the same time as this city of Vancouver, of which we are naturaOy so
proud. The population of Seattle has increased from 6,000 to 90,000, and the city has
been built exclusively by white labour.

The Exclusion Act has worked well in the United States. Non-employment has
been effective in the boundary country. United action kept them out of the building
trades and the mines. Is it not time for a policy of exclusion producing a
gradual change in the labour employed in other industries? The continued employment
of orientals is ha\ing its efl'eet ujion the younger generation. Work that bovs would do
and girls, too, they find the places occupied by Chinese. They have been taught both
by education and instinct to look upon the Chinamen as an inferior. The consequence
is that they will not engage into competition with him. The schools are full ; and, sad
be it to say so, so are the streets at night.

It has been said on behalf of the orientals by their counsel that the labour unions
are responsible for the agitation, and what is taking place is but the outcry of the
labourer. Sirs, if that be so, then I say let us thank the labour unions for it — let us
thank the labourer for his outcry, because, while at present it is the labourer alone who
is pinched, the time is not far distant when other classes of the community will be feel-
ing the stress of oriental competition in their respective fields, and then the outcry will
not be confined to the labour union or the labourer. We are further told that our good
relations with the eastern empires, particularly Japan, will be impierilled by restricting
the entry of their subjects into our land. Sir, when the statesmen of any part of our
country appeal to the patriotism of the people to sufl'er and endure for the good of the
country at large, and that appeal is limited largely to a particular class of the commu-
nity, being that portion of the community who earn their daily bread in probably a precar-
ious manner, it is putting their patriotism and loyalty to a very severe strain when they
alone are asked to bear the burden, and to waive their rights in favour of an alien race,
and an alien race who by their very presence degrade the position that the sufferers
occupy. The question seems partly to be, if a policy of exclusion were adopted, would
there be a sufiiciency of white labour come into this country to save such industries as
are to a large extent at present practically dependent on Chinese labour ? It is not
exclusively a labour question. The labourer, it is true, and his employer are immedi-
ately afi'ected. The real trouble, however, is far deepei' and depends not upon the indus-
trial or economic aspect of the presence of the Chinese, but upon its political aspect.
What will be the result in the future of the gradual encroachment of orientals upon
certain avocations to the exclusion of wOiites f Ultimately there would be three ckisses
in the community, namely : the master class, the servant class and a class of persons
engaged in supplying the daily wants and luxuries of both, and this latter class will, if
the servant class be alien, likewise be largely alien. Certain classes of labour in British
Columbia are already being regarded as purely Chinese, hence degrading and beneath a

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIO RATION 289

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

white man. This, in itself, tends to the degradation of lahour. Wlien, as a (lucstion of
principle, no work ever degrades any one.

Looking at the que.stion from its industrial aspects. While the object of the com-
mission is to inquire exclusively into oriental immigration, 1 hope 1 may be pardoned
for saying that much that one may say on this subject applies equally to some of the
inferior or lower orders of the Latin races. That cheap labour is not an absolute neces-
sitv for the production of any particular article of manufacture is .shown liy the startling
fact, that it is not the cheap labour countries that are the manufacturing countries. The
cheaj) labour countries of Eurojie are Italy, Austria and Spain, the agricultural parts of
GerniaiiN', Sweden and Norway. The great manufacturing countries of the world are
Great Britain, the United States, and those parts of Germany not included in my former
remark ; and the curious fact remains that that country which is gradually forging
ahead, so far as industrial skill is concerned, and to some extent crowding out the manu-
factures of other nations, is the country in which labour is most highly remunerated,
namely, the United States of America. It is the large American manufacturer, who,
employing white labour exclusively, is now competing with the United Kingdom, with
Germany, and all other European nations, and b^' superiority of production alone, dri\'-
ing the European out of the market. A striking illustration of this important fact is
the recent supply . of bridge material and locomotive engines to the
Imperial Government. Recently, the government was attacked in the House of Com-
mons for purchasing American locomotives for use on the Indian railways. Lord Ham-
ilton, Secretary of State for India, having been absent from the House at the time,
considered the matter of sufficient importance to reply to the attack by a letter to the
Times, and in that letter he made one statement I wish to quote. Said his Lordship:

' You seem to think that orders have gone abroad because those who ga\e them did
n(jt understand their business ; I wish it were so. The competition we have to face is
founded on something much more formidable and substantial. Mechanical research, the
consolidation of capital, thorough technical education and improved industrial organiza-
tion have made in recent years a greater advance in America than here. It is the pro-
duct of this combination and not the assumed stupidity of the Indian officials that the
British engineer lias to fear.'

I may add that it was from a high labour country to a cheaj) labour counti-y that
those engines were sent.

Mr. Cassidy says there has never been enough labour in a 'fluid condition.' A
' fluid condition ' meaning that any employer can, at any time, with little difficulty find
all the labour he may need, for as long or short a time as the exigencies of the particular
matter in hand may require. My friend desires to see repeated in British Columbia the
scene enacted every day on the opening of the gates of any of the London dock yards.
There is labour there in a ' fluid condition.' Better, far better, that the employer should
go short of ' fluid ' labour than that the miseiy and starvation of a London dock yard
should be repeated in British Columbia.

My friend, Mr. Taylor, says that we are asking for the ordinary rule prevailing in
the British Empire to be abrogated. No, sirs, on the contrary, we are asking that the
rule prevailing in the great self-governing colonies of Australia and Natal, and the
neighbouring republic, may be iiitrodueed here.

It is further said that these people do not come here as the result of ser^'ile contracts.
I cannot jirove that they do, but I will mention one significant fact ; In fifteen years
since the passing of the head tax, there has been paid for the entrance into this country
by the Chinese alone $8 1 8,033 gold dollars. Approximately in their own money, the silver-
dollar, nearly .§1,636,066. That is to say, these labourers coming here to work forthelow^
wages raised the enormous sum of §1 ,636,066 for the privilege of entering the country, and
paid at the same time their own fares and expenses to come here. Is such a proposition
credible I

Ha\"ing now in the time at my disposal touched upon the industrial aspect of the

(luestion, I wish to refer to its national or political aspect, and in this connection I

refer particularly to the evidence of the Rev. Canon Beanlands. I select his e^^dence

because it is that of a highly cultivated, scholarly clergyman, who courageously put for-

.54—19

290 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

ward what at first sight seemed to me a most attractive theory, namely, that ' There is
a time in the historj- of every country when the existence of a servile class helps the
development, and that the existence of this class emphasized the position of tlie work-
man who was a member of the dominant race. That the Chinese who came here did
not compare with the whites or enter into competition with them.'

Now, as this theoiy tended to the advancement of the white labourer, it seemed
particularly attractive. The question is : Is it sound ? Is there any single instance of
a nation in modern times prospering with a servile class ? Do we need to go further
than the civil war in the United States ? Certainly, the result of an attempt to maintain
a servile class in the southern states has not been a success.

Conditions in British Columbia seem to point to this : That there are some artizans
and mechanics, and a few of the better sort of labourers receiving the best of wages.
But the substratum of the industrial situation is oriental. Now, of this, Canon Bean-
lands approves. I venture to think that he loses sight of the important fact, that the
oriental substratum will not remain quiescent. As a matter of fact, it is griwiually
forcing the wav upward and disturbing and displacing the very men whom the Canon
seeks to benefit. So far from elevating the artizan and mechanic, I cannot but think it
will ha\e the opposite eifect. The knowledge that he is of a higher type of humanity
will be little compensation to him when the servile substratum has forced its way up-
ward, and working for low wages at the higher branches of labour driven the white
artizan out.

There are large areas of London in which the Poles and Slavs, a servile cheap
labour class, have driven the English out — the same process there as here, the English
worker displaced by the foreigners who will live under conditions intolerable to the
Englishman. Does he think you feel proud that he is free ? That he belongs to the
dominant race ? Free. Yes, to do what I Starve. It would be a curious inquiry to
ascertain what becomes of the displaced Englishman. What becomes of the British
worker 1 To every deep there is a lower depth, and honest poverty having been dis-
placed by the Pole and Slav, is it reasonable to suppose it has been exalted ? Is it not
more probable that they have become part of the submerged tenth, and reached that
depth of poverty and degradation that gives no hope of raising?

I refer to the evidence of the following witnesses, who see the axiX of oriental
immigration. I select them as employers of labour, citizens of high standing in the
community, and men whose opinions are entitled to careful tjonsideration :

Thomas R. Smith. — Contended that canneries look upon Chinese as an evil
generally. Policy would be to exclude.

J. A. Sajnvard. — Chinese crowd out whites and Indians. Favours restriction.

Wm. Munsie. — Could aflbrd to pay a highei- wage. Do not fear any trade dis-
turbances. Willing to see orientals excluded.

E. J. Palmer. — No inconvenience will be experienced from restriction of Chinese.
Neither Chinese nor Japanese are a benefit to the country.

Thos. Piercy. — Thoroughly favours exclusion and protection to white labour.

Henry Croft. — Averse to oriental innnigration. Advocates resti'iction.

Jos. Hunter. — Prefer to see white labour predominate throughout the country.
Country better without orientals. It would be a menace to the country if people like
Chinese were found encroaching on the general avocations of the people. I believe
this would be a better country without them. Industrial conditions would not be
affected by restriction or prohibition.

D. Spencer, Victoria.

A. Haslam, Nanaimo.

R. H. Alexander, Vancouver. — If it were not for the necessities of our particular
industry would much prefer that the immigration should be limited to whites. To
build up the country, population must be homogeneous. Does not approve of them as
citizens. Prefers to see them replaced by whites. Wages would not increase if ex-
<clusiou put in force at once. Prefer country should by occupied by oui- own people.

J. G. Woods, Vancouver.

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIORATIOX 291

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

J. W. Hackett, Vancouver. — Had to eiuplov orientals to compete with others
iisiiig tliem.

Bernard ilacdonald, Rossland.

E. Kirb_y, Ko.ssland.--It is not tV)r the best interests of the community to have an
unlimited supply of oriental labour come into the country. Plan adopted in the United
States has worked out well.

H. Croasdale, Nelson.

F. Burnett — Sentimentally, yes ; business, no.

Major Dup(jnt e\"en does not want them. In the interest of the country it would
be preferable to have whites. Suggests license to come for five j'ears.

There is, therefore, no possible reason for delaying relief. The time will never
arrive, according to the employer, when the conflitions will be favourable to the exclusion
of the oriental. In other words, so long as you have got the desire of profit as the only
cause operating between the master and servant, just so long will the master insist, and
no one can Ijlame him for insisting, on obtaining as large a pnjfit as he possibly can get.
But this Commission is not sitting in the interest of either master or servant. It is
sitting to inquire into the advisability of restricting the immigration of orientals.
According to the evidence that has been given, repeatedly have witnesses stated that
they believe no dislocation or disturbance of trade relations would take place, by some
immediate measure of relief. If so, why then should it be delayed ? Now is the time
before the evil becomes greater than it is now. And now, in conclusion, permit me to
make some few general observations.

There would seem to be three great centres of the earth's surface which seem to be
specially adapted for the habitation and enjoyment of the human race — the white, the
niongol and the negro — each in its own centre, namely, the white in Europe and the
northern part of the American continent and possibly some portion of the southern part
of the American continent, the mongol in the north-eastern part of Asia, and the negro
in equatorial Africa, and apparentlj- in some parts of the United States. Each in its
own centre appears to reign supreme, and it would seem as if neither of the others in
that particular locality could oust the one for which it seems to have been specially
designed. On the borders of each of these three great areas of the earth they come into
conflict, either industrially or military, and it is just such a conflict as that that we have
here. The question then arises, which is it that in the contest for the industrial and
political occupation of the north-west part of the North American continent shall prevail 1
The white man or the oriental ? Now, we have all the legal and political advantages ;
we are in possession and we would be worse than fools, we would be blundering traitors
if we ever allowed ourselves to be ousted from the advantageous position we possess.
We have got to meet this great people on their own ground, not industriallv but
politically, and we have got to see that they are excluded from our borders, so that our
own people may be allowed to come in and possess and occupy the land. Immigration
into the north-west part of Canada is at present really excluded by the oriental. The
white labourer or the intending immigrant will not face eastern competition, and he is
wise in his generation. He does not go to China, and he does not go to Japan, but
seeks a newer and wider field. In point of fact, the western man — the man of the
British Islands, the great colonizing nation of the world — never went east but for the
purpose of conquest. For the purpose of occupation and colonization, he leaves the east
and goes toward the west. Merciless he may be in his progress. He may trample other
races under his foot ; he may either absorb or extinguish them, and if they are people of
his own type he will absorb them. If they are people of an inferior tj-pe they will be
extinguished. When, however, he comes in or near the boundaries of either of the other
two great races of mankind, then he meets them within their own territory, with a
power equal to his. He meets a race incapable of extinguishment, and before which
even he, with all his chai-acteristic vigour and endurance, is bound to recoil. Let us
then see that in this our land, this conflict may be put an end to, and our industrial
classes not brought into conflict with the races already referred to. We cannot allow
one of the fairest portions of the earth's surface to be wrested from Canadians. The
.'J4 — 19i

262 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

question is then not wlmllv eciinniiiic and indu.striiil, but. as T already puinted nut. lai'irelT
a national que.stion.

We have commercial protection, and to that extent benefit both the Canadian
labourer and Canadian capitalist. We have laws pre\"enting introduction of alien
labour. Why should we not go one step further and prevent the voluntary immigration
into our country of a class of labourers, not only aliens in race, but aliens in ci\ilization.

Such observations as these are true not only of orientals, but they are equally true
of Italians and other Latin races. I do not say that the e^•idence points wholly in this
direction, but I venture to give it as my own impression that the Latin and Sla\onic
races of Europe are not wanted here. With the Teuton and the Seanrlinavian we
assimilate. They are of our own type. It is fi'oni them we sprung. They become in
every sense of the word good citizens and loyal Canadians. We can make room in this
country for some thousands of people who would be greatly benefitted by the I'hange.
We have a clime une(|ualled in salubrity and at the same time variety — the home of a
strong, sturdy and independent people. Are we then to allow this land to become the
home of a servile, alien race, their superintendents paying tribute to non-resident capi-
talists and a few tradesmen who supply the wants of both. We have grand mountains
containing e\ery \ariety of minerals in abundance, gold, silver, copper, lead, iron and
coa.. We have beautiful valleys capable of producing all the necessaries of life and
some of the luxuries for the toiling thousanrls in our own and other fields of labour.
We have risers teeming with food, fish in endless variety, our seacoasts likewise are
unexampled in their productiveness. We have timber of enormous size, and almost in-
exhaustible in quantity. I ask you then to make such report as will justify the govern-
ment in imposing such a head tax as to amount to exclusion. I ask you to so report as
to preserve one of the fairest portions of the earth's surface for the Canadian people,
and not allow it to be wrested from them, not by conquest, but simply by engulfing us
in the risina; tide of oriental ininiiL^iation.

ARGUMENT BY MR. A. I). TAYLOR ON BEHALF OF CHINESE.

Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen, — Although I have not had the advantage of
attending on behalf of my clients, the Chinese Board of Trade, during the whole of this
inquiry, as my learned friend, Mr. Wilson, has ; I have obtained full notes of the
evidence, and have also had the benefit of the notes made by my colleague, Mr. Brad-
burn, who attended the sittings of your Commission in ^'ictoria.

In my argument therefore on behalf of the Chinese I refer to all the evidence that
has been adduced before you since you opened the sittings of this Commission in Victoria
some two months ago.

In accordance with the suggestion of mj' friend, Mr. \\'ilson, I will only put Ijefore
you the main features of the question as they present themselves to me, referring in a
general way to the e^'idence bearing out my view of the matter as representing the
Chinese.

The first point which I wish to raise is that, while your Connnission is a Conmiission
of inquiry to obtain evidence generally referring to the question at issue, and not a court
tiying a case between two parties, plaintiiF and defendant, in the ordinary way, my
clients are still in a great measure in the position of defendants. Your Commission, as
the Order in Council appointing it shows, was the result in a great measure of an outcry
against the Chinese and Japanese, and especially the result of two petitions to the
Dominion goverimient referred to in the Order in Council. In these petitions serious
charges ai'e made against the Chinese. They are therefore to a great extent in the
position of defendants, and while this position of defence is in (me way a disadvantage,
I claim on behalf of my clients any advantage of the position, and one of the advan-
tages that a defendant has in an ordinary case is that the burden of proof is on the
plaintiff and especially is this the case when charges are made, for then it is essential
for the party making the charges to support them and not for the accused to j)rove his

0-V CHIXESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 293

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

innocence. In other words, I claim that it is not for the Chinese to come forward and
cleai- themselves from the imputations made against them, but rather for the persons
who feel themselves aggrie\ed by the presence of the Chine.se in the country to come
forward and show that the presence of the Chinese in the ]irovince worts the injury that
these people say it does.

Without suggesting that you are strictly Iwund by this rule, I think that I may
fairly urge on behalf of tiie Chinese that they are entitled to some beneht from it, and
that in this province and in this Dominion, forming part of the British Empire, which
has always opened its doors in the widest wav to all comers from all parts of the world,
the presumption is that the Chinese are entitled to come in like all other men, and that
those who want to set u]i a barrier against their coming in must show some good reason
for so doing. Certain restrictions already exist enacted at the instance of those who, as
at present, cry out that the Chinese are, to use one of their milder terms, ' a detriment
to the country.' 8urely, these people who now want to impose further restrictions, if
not total exclusion, should show their reasons and support these reasons by facts.

I claim therefoi-e on behalf of the Chinese some benefit from this rule and I urge
that the evidence brought before the Commission by those opposed to the Chinese, falls
far short of bearing out the statements made by those opposed to the Chinese and their
presence in the countrv.

At the outset of this inquiry you gave a series of questions covering the points on
which you wantefl e\idence and before discussing the more general points involved in
the inquiry I w ill briefly refei' to these questions and the evidence bearing on each as
regards the Chinese.

1 . The number of Chinese in the Province. I think we may take it that twelve
thousand is about the number. Yip Oif, the secretarv of the Chinese Board of Trade in
Vancouver, gives that figure and W. A. Cum Yow also examined in Vancou\er gives the
same number, ^^'e may say therefore that this is ajiproxiniately the Chinese population
of the province. I would mention here, hcjwever, that this population, notwithstanding
the considerable numbers that have immigrated in recent years, is not increasing in
proportion to the general increase in the population of the province. The evidence
rather is that it is actually decreasing. The reason for this I will refer to later.

2. The Immigration since 188-t. The statistics which have been furnished by the
officials show the figures and it is unnecessary for me to go into them except to qualify
them l)y the statement I have just made that notwithstanding the innnigi-ation the
Chinese population is not increasing.

3. From what class in China are the immigrants ilrawn and what was their con-
dition in China ( Althi>ugh there has been some conflicting evidence I think it will be
admitted that the Chinese jiopulation in the pro\ince come from the country districts
or pr<i\inces of which Cant(jn is the natural seaport, and that they are of the small
farmei- cla.>-s. There has been an attempt made to show that they are of the coolie class
from the cities of China, but the witnesses who attempted to prove this, are not in a
position to speak definitely. At their examination in Vancouver, Mr. G. W. Thomas
and JMr. Dyer spoke on this p()int, but Mr. Thomas had not visited China since the year
l!^7.5 and had no means of knowledge. Mr. Dver referred specially to the emigration
of the coolie class to the Straits .Settlements and could not speak definitely as to those
who came to British Columbia although he inferred that they were also of the coolie
class.

4. The character of tiie Chinese, for honesty, obedience, diligence, thrift, sobriety
and morality and keeping of contracts. On this question, the evidence is in favour of
the Chinese. WInle one or two witnesses do not give them a good character, the mass
of e\ idence even from those who are pronounced in their feelings against the desirability
of Chinese as citizens, is that the Chinese are honest, obedient, diligent to a degree,
thrifty to an extent which some witnesses claim to be a crime, sober, and on the whole,
as moral as similar classes among the whites. As to their keeping of contracts, the
evidence is all to the effect that thev are bevond 1-eproach. When a man like the
Honourable Mr. Reid wlm has harl thirty-eight years" expei'ience in the country speaks
as lie does of the wav in whidi the Chinese carrv out the terms of a contract, even if it

2J4 • SEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOy

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

be disastrous to themselves; when witnesses like Mr. Smith, of Robert ^^";u■d it Co.,
Ltd.. Victoria and Mr. Frank Burnett, of Vancouver, both of whom liave liad larjje
dealings with the Chinese, tell us that they can always be relied upon to keep a contract,
when Mr. W. A. Cum Yow, of Vancouver, who sjieaks specially of the relations between
the Chinese contractors and the Canning Companies states that he does not know of a
single instance ^^•here a Chinese contractor liad failed to carry out his contract in full, it
is not necessary to make any further reference to the evidence. But in this connection
I would like to remind you of the evidence of Mr. Dyer who was examined in Van-
couver on the last flay of the sittings here. You will remember that Mr. Dyer is a
member of the staff of the pro\ince newspaper, and that he certairdy was not in favour
of the presence of the Chinese in this province. He had ten years' experience in China
and Japan, and stated that in Japan, positions of trusts were invariably filled bv Chinese
and in tlie same way in the Straits Settlements and other places in the east, sliowing
the reputation which the Chinese have there for honesty and integrity.

5. The next question is the number of Chinese engaged in the ^■arious industries
enumerated in the question as follows :

FISHERIES.

The evidence shows that there are no Chinamen employed as fishermen. The only
Chinese that can be said to be employed in the fisheries are those employed in the \-arious
canneries. As to the number employed in tliis way it is ditficult to speak precisely, for
the employment is not a permanent one, the w'ork beginning about ^lay 1, when wliat
are called the first crew is taken on for the work of preparation and ending with the
close of the canning season, about October ], the greatest number being employed in the
months of July and August, when the actual fishing and packing is .going on. Mr. Bell
Irving estimates the total number thus employed as j^erhaps 4,000, but many of these
are drawn from other occupations for the time being. In the statement of the Chinese
population of A'ictoria put in by Lee Cheong, president of the Cliinese Benevolent
Association of Victoria, at the sittings on April 21, the number of cannervmen proper
is gi%en at 886, and in Vancouxer the number of cannerymen is given as 5-51. As to
the emplo\nnent of Chinese in tlie canneries I shall ha\"e occasion to refer more fully
again.

THE MINES.

In these there are a certain number of Chinese employed in the coal mines on the
island, but the numbers are smaller than generally supposed, as will be seen from the
e^adence, and so far as other mines are concerned, there are few or no Chinese employed,
except in placer mining. As to this class of mining I would refer to the evidence of the
Honourable Mr. Reid.

THE LUMBER BUSINESS.

Under this head there are very few Chinese to be found. In the statement filetl in
Victoria the number of saw-mill hands is 48. In the statement filed in Vancouver the
number of saw-mill hands employed is 12, all in the employ of one mill. These figures
refer to saw-mill hands jiroper. In the shingle mills a larger number of Chinese are
employed, the number in Vancouver being 110, In these shingle mills the Chinese are
employed on contract work for which they have a special aptitude, owing to their great
diligence, and the fact that they are always ready to work long hours. This is one of
the many .sins laid to their charge bv the white workman.

M.\SUF.\CTUKES.

The number of Chinese employed in general manufactures is small. In fact, leaving
out those employed in A'ictoria and Vancouver in the manufacture of boots and shoes

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMW RATION 295

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

and of clotliing, the n\nnl)er engaij;e(l in faotofies is nil. Reference will bo iiiaiie to the
shoemakiog industry and the clothing industry under another head.

FARMIiVrj AND MARKKT (JARDENING.

There are no Chinese engaged in farming proper, but a large number are engaged
in market gardening. In Victoria, for example, the number of market gardeners is
gi\en as 200. In Vancouver the number given is 134. It may be taken that in the
province generally there are 500 Chinese employed in this industry for which they show
remarkable aptitude, having in most instances doubtless learnt the business in their
native country where gardening has been perfected.

DOMESTIC SERVANT.S.

In the city of Vancouver and Victoria there ai'e about 800, and allo-ning a fair
percentage for the other parts of the province it may be estimated that there are 1,000
to 1,200 Chinese domestic servants. As to their efficiencj' in this respect, and the
necessity for their employment I will refer at a later stage in the argument.

OTHER CALLINGS.

Under this head must be classed the merchants and merchants' clerks, who in
Victoria and Vancouver number 388 and 143 respectively, and in other parts of the
province probably as many moi'e, and a certain number of miscellaneous laboui'ers.

6. The difference in wages paid to the Chinese and to white men in the same trade
or calling. There are few cases in which a direct comparison can be made, that is where
a Chinaman can be found doing the same work as a white man. When this is the
case, the rate of wages paid to the Chinaman is considerably lower. But as stated, there
are a few cases in which this direct comparison can be made. In the canneries the
Chinamen do a class of. work which is not done by the whites. In the shingle mills
they work by contract. In domestic service the comparison is with white women. Here
the Chinaman gets rather better wages on the average, and in some cases far higher
wages, but as the evidence shows, he is a better servant and does work which a white
servant girl cannot or will not do. In the tailoring trade the wages of white journey-
men can be put approximately at $15 a week {see the evidence taken in Victoria on
March 15 and 1(5) while the wages of the Chinese are from $25 to $35 a month with
board {xee the evidence of Tim Kee in Victoria, March 15). In the boot and shoe
business the Chinese workmen are paid from $1.10 to $1.25 a day {see evidence in
Victoria, on March 20). White men in the same business are employed in a diff'erent
class of work and are paid from $2.50 to $3 per day. In the saw mills where Chinamen
are employed their wages may be put at an average of $1.25 a day, while the lowest
wages to white men in the same employment i.s .$1.50.

7. Has any industry been called into existence by the iiresence of the Chinese 1 I
think that on the evidence we maj' take it that the canning industiy, while not actually
called into existence by the Chinese, has been built up by the fact of their being here,
and their labour available for the peculiar conditions of the cannery business in a way
tliat could not have been done had they not been here, and that they are indispensable
in it. It is a significant fact as stated by Mr. Bell Irving, that in every salmon cannery
on the Pacific coast fi'om Northern Alaska to the Sacramento, Chinese are largely employed.
I shall have occasion to refer to this point again.

8. Is there any industry dependent upon the Chinese labour fur its continuance ?
While some witnesses claim that the canneries could continue without Chinese, the
evidence of the owners and managers of the canneries is to the contrary : for they
one and all state that it would be impossible to carry on the industry without the
Chinese. In the lumber business the evidence of those qualified to speak is that there
is an absolute necessity for cheap labour of some lOass, cheajier tlian can be got in the
white population. It is these two industries the fishing and the lumber, which with

296 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOy

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

inininir make up the tliree principal industries in the pruvince. In bath of them the
eciinpetition is witli outsiders and the price is fixed unt hy tlie local demand in British
Columbia, or in Canada, or by conditions prevailing; here, but bv this (lutsifleCnniiieti-
tion and the necessity for cheap production is haixl anrl fast.

y. Hi iw do the Chinese come to the province aiid under what terms ? I assume
that this refers to the statements fretjuentlv made that the Chinese are imported in
lai'ire numbers under contracts which are alleged to be of a servile nature. These state-
ments are not however borne out by any evidence. No witness has come forward and
established this by direct evidence. All they tell us is hearsay. On the other hand
we have the positive evidence of E. W. McLean, Mon Ivow, Cum Yow and Lee Cheong
that such is not the case. It is surely not iiecessarv for me to refer to this evidence in
detail, as this is certainly a point on which I am entitled to claim that the burden of
yiroof is on those who make the statement.

10. AVhat proportion bring their wives, or marry here or attend school or churches
or become christians ? It is difficult on the evidence to speak precisely, but the pro-
portion that bring their wives or marry here is very small, less than o per cent. For
this there are reasons. As ^Ir. Cum Yow puts it, a large proportion would bring their
families here were it not for the unfriendly leception gi^en them in recent years which
has created an unsettled feeling. As to attending school, the number of children is
small, but a niunber do attend our public schools and there are a certain number of
christians among the Chinese population although this number again is small.

11. "What is the standard of living of the Chinese as compared with the whites ?
This is lower than that of the whites, but hei'e again it is difficult to make a comparison
for there is not in the province any class of whites that can be directly compared with
the Chinese labouring class. The white labourer or workman is as a rule in a superior
position, earning considerably higher wages, so that there is no class of white workmen
in the same position. The Chinese live within their means, and the wages which they
get compel them to be thrifty and frugal. It is hardly fair to urge, as many of the
witnesses have done as a wrong in t!ie Chinese, that he is not extravagant and that he
lays up something for the rainy dav, and in many cases sends money away to support
liis wife or his parents. Why should it be a crime in a young Chinaman to deny him-
self and send money home to his family ? If a young immigrant of any other nation-
ality did this he would be praised instead of blamed.

12. Wliat is the moral and jihysical condition of the Chinamen, their habits of
cleanliness and attention to sanitary regulations ? As to their moral condition I have
already spoken. As to their physical condition, they are not as strong physically as the
■wliites, but tliis is a matter of race. So far as health is concerned, tliey compare
fa%ourably with other classes of the population except as to consumption to which they
appear to be peculiarly susceptible. As to their attention to sanitary regulations, they
require education and o\ersight, but here again there is no white class to compare them
with,

13. Do they live in different parts oi the city or in aggregations ? The conditions
prevailing in Vancouver and Victoria mav be taken as t\pical. The Chinese live in
aggregation, but this is rather a matter of necessity than of choice. In both cities the
only class that do not live in Chinatown proper ai'e the laundrymen for the convenience
of their business, but as Mr, Cum Yo« inhis evidence in A''anct)uver states, this aggre-
gation is rather forced upon them than chosen by them.

14. What effect has their residence in any place on the price of property in that
locality? Owing to the strong feeling in the minds of many against the Chinese, their
neighlwurhood has had the effect of depreciating the value of property, but on this point
I would refer the Commissioners to the evidence of Major Dupont in his examination in
Victoria on April 3, where he states that the Chinese are good tenants in every respect.

1-5. What proportion live in separate houses and have families ? As shown by the
evidence the jiroportion is small. How manv Chinese women are there in the province I
The actual number in Victoria is 94 women and 82 female chiUiren. In Vancouver the
number of women is 29 with 13 female children. Outside these cities the numbers
■would bring up the" total to about 3(')0 of them ; the majority ai'e the wives of merchants

O.V CIIIXESE A XL) JAPANESE IMMIaRATIOX 297

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

witli a tew wives of labour men. The number of women of no occupation is not more
than twenty in the entire province. 80 much for the charge that prostitution prevails
to a great extent among them.

17. Are men and women brought under servile contracts I There is no evidence
of this.

IS. This question relates to the Chinese companies. There is no evidence that tiiev
take anv part in Chinese immigration, or eft'ect it in any way.

19. Do the Chinese take any intei'est in our laws and institutions? A\'hat propor-
tion build up homes and become permanent citizens or residents I The Chinese take
verv little interest in our law s, but this is hardly to be wondered at seeing how tliey are
treated, and they ha\e not got the right to vote. The proportion that build up homes
is small but increasing.

20. Do they learn our language, t'i.'C., and show signs of assimilating '. The numljer
that learn our language and ado])t our customs is small, and the evidence is that the
Chinese will not assimilate.

■_'l How have workmen been affected by the Chinese ! This is in one sense the
main question, for this is the great cry against them, and I will have to discuss this
point more fully as one of the general points of my argument. In the meantime I
submit that the effect of Chinese competition is not at all what it has been represented
to be.

22. How has Chinese immigration afiectetl white immigration ? There is some
evidence of individual cases where white immigrants have been prevented from coming,
but this is onlv in isolated cases, and there is no evidence that the presence of the
Chinese here has had any general effect in preventing white immigration.

23. What proportion of Chinese return to their own country, and what proportion
of their earnings do they take ? A considerable numbei' of Chinese, probably 20 per
cent, return to their own country and take some of their earnings, probably 2.5 per
cent.

24. Are the Chinese a menace to health, and, if so, in what way ? If there is anv
menace to health the greater number should constitute the greater menace, and we can,
therefore, refer to the condition of affairs in Victoria and Vancou\ er, and if the presence
-of the Chinese in these cities is not a menace to health it certainly will not be so in
other parts of the province. The evidence of Dr. Fraser, medical health olKcer of
Victoria, examined on March 13, and James Wilson, sanitary inspector of Victoria,
examined on Mai-ch 1-5, shows the condition in Victoria. In Vancouver similar
evidence was given on April 24 by Dr. McLean, the health ofKcer, and Mr. Marrion,
Health Inspector. In both cities the principal thing alleged against the Chinese is that
they are fond of overci'owding, but it is arlmitted that by proper supervision this is
prevented and the sanitary condition of the Chinese quarter greatly improved. No
instance is given of the origin of any contagious disease in the Chinatown of either
city, and the mortality amongst the Chinese is not greater than amongst the white
fnipulatiiin. In Vancouver, Dr. Mcljcan tells us that the condition of Chinatown has
greatly improved in recent years and is still improving, and Mr. Marrion, the health
inspector, states that there is less difficulty than formerly in enforcing the sanitary by-
laws, as the Chinese are becoming gradually educated to the propei- standard, while the
merchants and better classes among them assist the health officers in every way in their
duties. Dr. McLean speaks in a vague way of the presence of the Chinese being a
menace to health, but it is significant that in Vancouver, as shown by his report for
1900, out of 183 cases of infectious disease during that j'ear only six occurred in China-
town, and of the remaining 177 not one could be traced to Chinatown. This is about
3 per 1,000 of the C^hinese population of 2,000, while taking the total population of
Vancouver to be 30,000, the number of cases in the white p<:ipulation is G per 1,000, or
twice as inanv in projiortion as in Chinatown. . I submit that there is no evidence that
the pre.sence of the Chinese is in any way a menace to health.

2.5. Has trade between China and Canada been affected by Chinese innnigration '.
There is a consiflerable import trade done by the Chinese merchants. Merchants in
Victoria imported $107,504 of goods from China in the year 1900. The Vancouver

298 REP0R7 OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

merchants in the same period imported -^78,198. .There is evidence that some export
trade in lumber is attributable to the presence of the Chinese here, but so far as export
trade is concerned the presence of the Chinese has had no marked effect. The restric-
tion or prohibition of Chinese immigration would naturally directly affect the import
trade.

"26. The effect of unlimited Chinese immigration? I think that this question is put
in rather an unfortunate wav. Unlimited immigration of any class, Chinese or white,
Would have a bad effect, but I think that the Chinese immigration will, e\en in the
absence of any restriction, be limiteil by the natural law of supply and demand. In
other words, we mav leave it to the Chinese not to come in too great numbers.

27. As to the sutHciencv of white labour ] I suggest here that there is an insuffi-
ciencv of white labour. I will refer to this again in my general remarks.

28. The criminal class among the Chines^as compared with the white population ]
On the e\"idence given I think that you will come to the conclusion that taking the
Chinese as a class they are a law-abiding people. They are certainly no worse than
their white neighbours. Dr. Fraser, medical officer in Victoria, examined on March 13,
savs that the Chinese are law-abiding, no serious crimes are committed by them, their
f)rincipal offences being against the city health by-laws. Supierintendent Hussey of the
provincial police, examined in Yiet«ria on March 2.5. .says that the Chinese are industrious
and sober and conduct themselves as well as other classes. Chief Langley of the Victoria
police force, says that comparing the Chinese with the whites as to crime, he says he
does not think the Chinese are bad. In Vancouver, Mr. Mcintosh, clerk of the police
court, handed in a statement showing the police records for the year 190(). From this
it appears that the greater number of cases against the Chinese are for infringement of
the city by-laws such as health by-laws and some cases of petty thieving. Mr. Beck,
clerk of the crown in Vanct)uver, showed that one hundred and forty prisoners were
committed for trial for indictable offences in Vancouver in the seven years ending
October 30, 1900. Of these sixteen were Chinese, only ten of whom, however, were
convicted. It is significant that there have been no charges against the Chinese of
as.saults upon women or any cases of that nature.

29. The relative amount of taxes paid compared with their earning power ? The
Chinese pay the same poll tax as the white labourer. They pav on property the same
rate as the white population. As their wages are lower the poll tax is a heavier tax
on them than on the whites.

30. With whom do the Chinese trade ? To what extent does this country benefit
therebv and what piroportion of their earnings do thev take out of this country ? The
Chinese trade in a great measure with their own merchants, but these merchants, as
will be seen from the statements handed in by Lee Cheong in Victoria and by Yip On
in Vancouver, buv the greater part of their goods in Canada or import from England.
Thev in fact obtain their supplies from the same source as white mei'chants in the same
lines. As to the proportion of their earnings talcen out of the country, thei'e is evidence
that a number of Chinese do send away a considerable portion of their earnings, pro-
bably 2.5 per cent., but I would refer to the evidence of the Honourable Mr. Reid where
he says that this is not done to anything like the extent that is generally supposed, and
Mr. Reid from his thirtv-eight vears' residence in the country is able to speak with some
authority.

31. What proportion speak and I'ead and write English ( A consideralile number
read and write and there is e\idence that thev are anxious to learn in order to better
their position.

Questions 32, 33 and 34 relate to matters of opinion rather than to matters of fact.
I would merely remark incidentally as regards question 32 that the whole gist of evi-
dence is that the Japanese are a greater menace to white labour than the Chinese are.
The witnesses who state this, give as their reason the fact that the .lapanese show greater
aptitude in adopting our ways of life and are much more aggressi^■e, having already
forced themselves into competition with the white workmen in a way that the Chinese
have not done, although the latter have been in the province in considerable numbers
for many years, and the Japanese have onlv been here in any number for a year or two.

lil

ox CHINKSE AXD J A PAXES K IMMK.RATIOX 299

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

I have now gone through the different ciuestions suggested by you and referi'ed t<)
tlie evidence in answer to these questions as it effects my clients anrl I submit tliat it is
favourable to the Chinese. So far as facts are concerned it is absolutely so. As to the
opinion given by difl'erent witnesses, specially in answer to the last three' questions it is
adverse. As to the capacitv of Chinese to assimilate, I have admitted that the}' will be
slow to assimilate, but this I claim is in one sense a good feature and an absolute answer
to many of the absurd statements that have been made against them, as fi)r example,
that thei'e is danger of their overrunning the country and becoming the dominant race,
and statements of that character. So long as they do not assimilate and establish them-
selves and multiply in the country, there is absolutely no danger of such a contingency.

As already mentioned, when it comes to opinions in answer to the questions sug-
gested bv you, we find many strongly expressed opinions against them, but so far as the
witnesses are concerned, I submit that these come in a great measure from persons who
are not in a position to give opinions, and in many instances from persons who show bv
their evidence a strong prejudice against the Chinese.

I would now direct j-our attention to several more general points on which I wish
to speak more in detail. These have all been incidentally mentioned under one or
other of the various questions to which I have already referred, but several of them are
of such importance that I must devote a short time to each of them and the evidence
bearing on them.

1. The Cutcry against the Chinese comes largely from the working class. This
is clear from the evidence. The witnesses who spoke most decidedly against them were
workingmen. When it came to employers of laboui', such as Mr. Todd of VictfU'ia, Mr.
Palmer of the Chemainus Mills, Mr. Marpole of the Canadian Pacific Railway, Mr.
Bell-Irving, representing the canning industry, and ]\Ir. Alexander, ^Ir. MacNair and
jNIr. Spicer rejiresenting the lumber industry in Vancouver, the evidence was \-ery
different. The working class unfortunately in British C(jlumbia as elsewhere, do not
always see things in the light of their own true interests. They claim in a general way
that the Chinese come into direct competition with them, but when we examine the
evidence it is remarkable how slight the foundation in fact is for this outcry. Take the
lumber industry for example. On this the evidence of Mr. Alexander is clear. He
does not give opinions but states facts, facts of which he has absolute knowledge from
his experience of nearly 40 years in the country. Judging from the mass of evidence
before us, the length of your labours would have been greatly lessened if other witnesses
had taken a leaf out of Mr. Alexander's book and confined their answers to facts and
not given their own opinions which were in many cases absolutely valueless, the
witnesses having no qualification whatever to speak. A number of workmen come up
and speak of the lumber business. Each speaks from his own in<li%idual standiioint,
and yet while he talks in a general wa}' of the competition by the Chinese none of them
can say that they have been driven out of employment by the Chinese or that they
have suffered themselves. Surely if there is any foundation for the outcry that white
labour is driven out by the unfair competition of the Chinese, some workmen could be
found who could come foi'ward and speak from his own actual experience. But such is
not the case. Witnesses tell us in a vague way that a large number of men had applied
to the Hastings Mill, but we have Mr. Alexander, manager of the mill telling us that
there is and has been an abst)lute scarcity of white labour, and that when they do obtain
ordinary white labour it carniot be depended upon, as the men employed at it leave
their woi'k at the slightest provocation. Surely large ennUoyers of labour ai'e in a better
position to speak as to the supply of labour and the effect of oriental competition than
the individual workman who can only speak from his own experience.

2. The Chinese do not enter into competition with the whites in nearly as many
branches as woulrl be supposed from the cry against them. As already pointed out, in
the lumlier business with the exception of the tew Chinese employed in the shingle mills,
there are practically no Cliinese engaged. There are some in the shoe making industry
in Victoria, but the evidence as to this shows that they have not injured the white shoe-
maker but have supplied the class of cheap labour which is absolutely necessary in order
to enable the few jnanufacturers here to compete with goods brought in from Ontario

3C0

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

aiirl Quebec, where there is ii large supply of e\ en cheaper labour than the Chinese.
Even with this the evidence is that the shoe manufacturers in Victoria have not been
able to hold their own against eastern competition and that the industry has been
declining. In tlie manufacture of certain articles of workmen's clothing and overalls
tlie Chinese are engagad in considerable numbers. But in this they do not compete
with any class of white workmen in British Columbia. The only competitors in this
industry are eastern firms who again have the advantage of even cheaper labour than
the Chinese. There are of course a great many emploved in the canneries to which I
shad refer later.

We next come to the laundries. Here it can scarcely be said that the Chinese
enter into competition with white labour, for the evidence shows that in the steam
laundries in which alone white labour is employed the white workmen get a far higher
rate of wages than the Chinese. Modern machineiy is used in the steam laundries and
the white workmen do a different class of work. In the Chinese laundries everything
is done by hand. But to show you how unfounded is the statement that in the laundry
business the Chinese have driven out ^hite labour, we need only refer to the evidence
of Mr. MeCrimmon in Victoria and Mr. Stewart in Vancouver. Both these witnesses
are proprietors of well equipped steam laundries, and what do they say 1 They came to
British Columbia and found the launrhy business entirely in the hands of Chinese.
They established their laundries in their respective towns, and using modern machinery
and doing, as they say, better work, have been able to establish a successfui business, so
successful in fact that each of them has recently largely increased the capacity of their
laundries. The business that they have got has been taken awav from the Chinese, for the
Chinese were alone in the field. The laundry business is thus an instance where well paid
white la' our with improved machinery can compete successfully with the hand labour of the
Chinese. If any one has cause to complain in the laundry business it is the Chinese,
and yet this is one of the cases where we have been told that the Chinese compete most
unfairly and by accepting low wages have driven wdiite workmen out of employment.

In the tailoring business there are, as already stated, a considerable number of
Chinese employed. We may take the evidence of Mr. Williams, examined in Vancouver,
as typical. He is strongly opposed to the Chinese, and yet in his evidence what do we
■find ] He divides the tailoring trade into three classes. First, the manufacturing
on a large scale of overalls and the low^er grade of workmen's clothing. Second, the
ordinary readv made clothing trade, and third, custom trade. As to the first there are
no whites engaged in the business in the province. It is and always has been exclu-
sively in tlie hands of the Chinese so far as the labour is concerned. The fii-ms (white)
that they supply have as their only competitor manufacturing firms in the provinces of
Quebec and Ontario, who have at their command a large class of even cheaper labour
than the Chinese. It is essentially an industry where the laboui' must be of the cheapest,
and if there were no Chinese to engage in it here, the business could not be profitably
carried on. Surely it is better so far as this bianch of the industry is concerned that the
piresent state of affairs sbould continue and that the British Columbia firms who now
ha\e this work done by the Chinese should be able to continue floing so and supply a
considerable portion of the provincial market rather than that this business should be
completely driven from the province. In the second branch of the tailoring industry, the
ready-made clothing, Mr. Williams tells us that the Chinese do not compete at all. In the
third branch, the custom trade, they do, but Mr. Williams tells us that it is by their
union the white tailors and white journeymen tailors have successfully maintained their
wages. So far as this custom trade is concerned I would remind you of the argument
of my learned friend Mr. Cassidy on behalf of the Japanese. It is not so much a
question of costs as the style and finish of the article, and if the Chinese as customs
tailors make clothing of a better stvle and finish than the whites, why should they be
debarred from entering into competition with them ? As my fearned friend puts it, a
good tailor is rather an artist than a labourer, and it should be a case of the survival of
the fittest. Surely the white tailors can compete with the orientals.

In market gardening the Chinese have to a great extent monopolized the business,
but this is due as much to their natural aptitude and skill as from their cheaper mode of

ox CHINESE AXD JAPAXhSE IMMIdRA TION 301

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

life. On this point again there is strikingly little evidence of their competition ha-ving
flirectly injured any of the white population.

The next point is the iishing business. As already mentioned, a large number of
Chinese are employed in the canneries and the complaint is that the business is practi-
cally monopolized by them. The best evidence on this question will be found in Mr.
Bell-Irving's examination in Vancouver and incidentally that of Mr. Fi'ank Burnett.
Mr. Bell-Irving speaks from actual experience as the manager of a company owning three
canneries on the Fraser, two canneries in the North, and a cannery on Puget Sound,
and also as having an intimate knowledge of the market for canned fish. He tells us
that the presence of Chinese in as large numbers as at present is absolutely indispensable
to the carrying on of the canning industry. I have already allufled to the fact stated
by him that in every cannery on the Pacific Coast, from Northern Alaska to the Sacra-
mento Valley, Chinese are employed and in many cases in larger jiroportion to the total
labour than in the canneries on the Fraser. And in answer to a question as to wheth«-
it would not be possible to abolish Chinese labour and substitute white which he
answered by a decided negative, he instanced the case of Fairhaven, a town of over ten
thousand inhabitants. It would be naturally assumed that there would be a number of
women and children available in such a community to do the process work usually done
by Chinese, and yet in the only cannery in Fairhaven there is a larger number of
Chinese employed than in any other cannery on Puget Sound. It is idle for people to
come forward who know nothing of the canning business and express their opinion that
the industry can be carried on without the Chinese. Mr. Bell-Ir\ing explains the
peculiar conditions of the canning business, that it is only carried on in the summer and
only for part of that, that the first crews are taken on at the canneries about
May 1 and begin the making of tins and general preparation for the season's pack :
that further men are taken on in July and August when the fishing is going on and each
day's catch is packed. It is then that the greatest number of men are wanted and that
it is impossible to find white labourers to do this. That even now there is a scarcity of
Chinese labour; that the Chinese have a special aptitude for the process work, and that
even if white labour could be obtained it is doubtful if they would be so expert, but
that it is an impossibility to find white labour available for so short a sea.son. That
canneries have endeavored to avail themselves of white labour only and have been un-
successful. But while Mr. Bell-Ir\ing thus expresses himself so strongly as to the
absolute necessity of a large number of Chinese for the industry, he also shows what a
comparatively small part the Chinese have in the fruits of the industry and how
ridiculous it is to .say, as so many do, that the business is practically monopolized Viv
them.

The Chinese labour in the canneries is confined to the process work, that is the
making of tlie cans in the early part of the season and the actual process of packing
during the fishing season. The foremen, engineers, time-keepers and other labourers of that
class is white and these men are hired for a consiflerable period extending from early in
spring until late in the autumn and at good rate of wages. The Chinese labour is pro-
vided by the Chinese conti'aetor who makes a contract at the beginning of the season
with the canning company to put up the season's pack, the company supplying the
material and the white labour already referred to. The Chinese contractor engages his
own hands, the majority of whom are Chinese, but a number of Indian men ancl women
are also included and in some canneries the Chinese contractor engages white help as
well. The Chinese have developed particular aptitude for this woik and, as Mr. Bell-
Ii-ving and Mr. Burnett say, it would be impossible to replace them with any other
class of labour. It has been suggested that white women might be employed, Ijut the
conditions of life at the canneries make this impossible, even if white women were a\'ail-
able, which is not the case. Fish must be put up cheaply, for several circumstances
militate against the Canadian packers, who have to compete in the English markets
with the Alaska and Puget Sound canneries. In Alaska, as Jlr. Bell-Irxing states, fish
cost in the neighbourhood of 2i cents ; in the Sound by the use of traps the fish in a
good season only cost a few cents. On the Fraser on the other hand net fishing is the only
method employed and the price varies from 8 cents with a liig run to 20 or even 2-5 cents.

302 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

^Ve mav take it tlierefore that the lowest cost for the fish f(^r a case of 48 }iouncls on the
Fraser is ■§1.50, while in Alaska it woukl be less than 40 cents and on the Sound in a
favourable sea.son about the same. The Fraser River Canneries are therefore seriouslv
handicapped and anv addition to the cost of production would very seriously cripple the
industry, if not ruin it altogether. The Chinese contractors are able to find in the
Chinese population, although during the last year or two they have even had difficulty
in doing that, a .sufficient number of Cliinese wnth the Indians employed to do the process
work at reasonable wages. The Chinese live in the Chinese ijuarters and are fed at the
Chinese messhouse ; the Indians live in the Indian cabins and provide their own food.
There is no accommodation at any of the canneries suitable for white women and it would
be imjwssible to provide i|uarters suitable for them, as these would only be occupied for a
few months in each year.' In other words, it is absolutely necessary for the canneries
to ha\-e a class of labour like the Chinese who are willing to accept the conditions at the
canneries, and to accept a fair rate of wages for the short fishing season. There is no
one to replace them. Though the Chineseare thus indispensable to the canning industry,
they do not numopolize the benefits of it as is generally supposefl. I have already men-
tioned that Mr. Bell-Ir\ing is the manager of a company ojierating six canneries and is
therefoie specially qualified to speak. He gave in his evidence a statement of the total
wage expenditure at one of these canneries for the season of 1900 at §-30,87:2, of which
he assigned !B33,500 to white labour against $17,000, in round figures, for Chinese
labour, and out of this the Chinese paid their Indian hands. The Indians being about
60 per cent of the number of the Chinese, or putting it at 50 per cent, one-third of the
above amou'nt would re])resent Indian labour, so that in this cannery less that 812,000
represents the amount ac-tually paid for Chinese labour.

It is hardly necessary to remind you of the imjiortance of the canning industry to
the province and how it affects other business. "Slv. Bell-Ir\ing and Mr. Burnett specially
explain this. Such l>eing the case, it woulrl, as tliese witnesses put it, be a most serious
thing to cripple if not to ruin this important industry by interfering in any way with the
supply of Chinese labour, which, as stated in the evidence, is already inadequate.

THE LUMBER BUSIXESS.

Here again the cry is that Chinese and Japanese have dri\en white labour from the
field. As already pointed out, no instances have been proved where a white labourer
has been dismissed and replaced by oriental labour. I have already had occasion to refer
to the fact that in the lumber business proper, few or no Chinamen are employed. In
the shingle business they are enqiloved to a considerable extent on conti'act wt>rk, and
the reasons for this I have given. Mr. Alexander of the British Columbia Timber Mills
and Trading Company, Vancouver, the proprietors of the Hastings Mill, Vancouver,
B.C.. the Royal City Planing Mills, Vancouver, and the Royal City Planing Mills, New
Westminster, who was examined in Vancouver, speaks with an experience of nearly
forty years in the province and a knowledge of the lumber trade which is probably
unequalled. He explains that from the outset of the industiy in the province they have
had a supply of cheap labour. At first it was Indian labour, Init this he explains was
always unsteady and not to be depended upon. At the Hastings mill, when the Indian
Reserve adjoined the mill property and they were able to keep a direct oversight on the
men, it was easier to insure their regular attendance at work, although even then it was
difficult owing to the peculiar disposition of the Indians, ready to work only when it
suited them and absent from work to shoot or fi.sh or to do anything else or nothing as
the humour seizes them. AVhen the reserve was removed some distance from the mill,
Indian labour became out of the question and they were replaced by Chinese. Some
years ago in deference, as Mr. Alexander puts it, to public opinion they dismissed the
Chinese and replaced them by the Japanese, still cheap labour. Mr. Alexander tells us
that all through they have endeavoured to procure white labour, but that it is impossible.
Not only is it impossible to get white labour at the same rates, liut even at the higher
rate which the mills are prepared to pay whites, white labour of that class is unsteady
and unsatisfactorv and cannot be depended upon as the Chinese and Japanese can. Mr.

OxV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIQRA TION 303

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Alexander states th^t the Hastings mill, as well as most of the other mills in the
province, are export mills, the home consumption being comparatively small, and that
in this export trade the mills have to compete with the world, Puget Sound and the
Baltic being their strongest competitors, and he adds that a certain percentage of cheap
labour is absolutely necessary to the maintenance of the industry. He tells us that out
of every five workmen in the Hastings mill three are whites and two Japanese, and that
if he cannot have the two Japanese at cheap rates the company must close their mill
and the tliree whites be thrown out of employment. In other words, the continuance of
the industry is dependent on a continuance of cheap laboui-, and this cheap labour enables
the mills to run and to pay better wages to the whites. Mr. Heaps, Mr. Hackett, Mr.
Spicer and Mr. ^IcNair all agree that cheap labour is indispensable in the lumber
industry. Mr. Spicer says that if an exclusion act was passed it would result in the
closing of the mills. Mr. MacNair has exceptional knowledge, as he operates mills both
in Canada and the States. He goes fully into the (|uestion of outside competi-
tion, and shows how absolutely the price of lumber exported is controlled bv this
competition, and how fatal it would be to the inrlusti'y if the cheap labour which they
now have in the Chinese and Japanese is interfered with or taken away. I omitted in
referring to Mr. Alexander's evidence one important statement, namely, where he said
that if the company had to replace the Japanese which they have at present working in
the Hastings mill with white labour, the increased daily expenditure would represent
such an addition to the other cost of production, that they would have to close the mill
as they would be running at a loss. Mr. Alexander also tells us that his company made
a special effort to obtain white labour, and at one time actually paid the expenses of a
large number of workmen from the east, but they had only remained with the company
a short time and left to take more lucrative employment elsewhere. The fact is that
there is ample scope in this province for white labourers in better and better paid woik
than the ordinary handling of lumber anrl work of that class about saw mills, and that
the presence of the orientals to do this cheaper work so far from being a detriment to
the white workmen is a benefit.

RAILWAY WORK.

The only witness who speaks on this is Mr. Marpole, superintendent of the Can-
adian Pacific Railway Company'. His evidence is most instructive. It appears that
the number of orientals employed in this division of the railway is comparatively
small, as the company endeavour to use white lal)our as much as possible, and that
they had not employed any Japanese until the summer of 1899, when they were
obliged to do so owing to the scarcity of white labour. He said that the company could
not aflbrd to pay higher wages than they are doing, and referred to the fact that the
Northern Pacific Kailway Company employs two thousand five hundred Japanese on its
Pacific division and the Great Noi'thern Company two thousand, and that the latter
were advertising for five thousand more Japanese. Under the present conditions the
I'ailway was bound to depend to a certain extent on Chinese and Japanese.

DOMESTIC SERVANTS.

I have already referred to the number of Chinese domestic servants in the prov-
ince and I submit that from the evidence it is clear that the presence of the Chinese
at any rate in as great numbers as at present, if not to a larger extent, is absolutely
indispensable in order to maintain the supply of servants. One or two witnesses
have told us that the Chinese are n(jt good servants and many suggestions have been
made as to the possibility <:>f obtaining a supply of female servants from other parts
of the Dominion or from England or elsewhere, but these are only suggestions and
other witnesses show how impossible such plans are. Mr. Schou, examined at Van-
couver, and who is strongly opposed to the presence of the orientals in the country, tells
us that even in England the domestic servant question has become one of great difficultv.
Owing to the employment of women in factories and other spheres of labour the su]iply

3C4 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

iif (li)inestic servants there is limited and a ureat deal of difficulty is experienced in
obtaining servants. Mr. Marpole speaks of the ditticulties in Toronto in obtaining
female servants, and states that a number of people in Toronto have requested liini to
send them Chinese as servants. Although one or two witnesses tried to decrv them, the
mass of e\ddence is to the effect that as domestic servants the Chinese are uneiiualled.
All the witnesses who spoke from tlieir personal experience from the eniploTinent of the
Chinese give them a good character in tliis respect. You will leniember the strong evi-
dence that was gi^•en by several witnesses in Victoria and Vincou\er. I would refer
vou to the evidence of Mr. Marpole of the Canadian Pacific Kailwav, Mr. Buntzen of
the British Columbia Electric Lights and Power Company and Mr. Rogers of the
British Ct)lumbia Sugar Refiners and others. One and all of them tell us that the
Chinese are indispensable as domestic servants and that already the supply is too
limited. The province requires a supply of Cliinese servants at least as great in propor-
tion to the whole population as at present, and any greater restriction on Chinese im-
migration than what now exists would prevent this. A good supply of qualified domes-
tic servants is of more importance to the well-being of the community than some of the
witnesses who have been examined are inclined to admit.

In. conclusion, I repeat that the evidence of the various witnesses examined before
vou, grouping them under the head of the iiuestions submitted by you, is favourable to
the Chinese and that from the evidence i_)f those best i|ualified to speak, the presence of
the Chinese in the country in at least as large numbers as at present in proportion to
the white population, is absolutely indispen.sable to the cimtinuance of the fishing and
the lumber industry, and e(iually so in order to provide a sujiply of ilomestic serAants to
carry on what Mr. Rogers well calls the industry of living. Tlie fishing industry and the
lumber industry are with the mines the tliree most important industries of the jiro\-ince,
and I submit tliat it would be a most unfortunate thing to cripple these two industries
in any way. The e\'idence shows that unless recruited by further iunnigration the
present number of Chinese in the province will gradually decrease and the supply of
Chinese labour already inadequate for the canning industry and domestic service will be
too small. Exclusion would of course prevent any further immigration, and an increased
poll tax as suggested would practically have the same effect, for the evidence is that an
increased poll tax wt)uld mean exclusion, and here I would remind you of a point I ha\ e
already referred to, that the Chinese population of the province is certainly not increas-
ing in proportion to the white population, and that it is rather absolutely decreasing
notwithstanding the large number that \va\e come into the province in recent years.
The explanation of this fact is that a large proportion of the Chinese who pay the poll
tax for the Dominion of Canada ultimately find their way to tlie United States. In
other words, we ai;e getting the revenue and the Americans are getting the Chinamen.
Exclusion or further restriction means that the Chinese in the country will rapidly
decrease, and, with the present number, none too great for the country's needs for the
industries to which I have referred, exclusion or restriction means ruin to them.

Has any good reason been shown for excluding or restricting the further immigra-
tion of Chinese, and have the peojile who cry so loud against them proved the serious
charges that they have made? Tliat there has been a loud outcry against the Chinese I
admit, but as one of the witnesses in Victoria put it, a few jieople can make a loud cry
if they cry loud enough. I submit that the cry is the cry of a ci>mparatively few. and
from those who unfortunately do not know what is best in their own interests. It is
significant in looking through the evidence to compare the standing and position of
those who speak in favoui' of the Chinese with those who sjieak against them.

As I put it in opening, in this province and in this Dominion, part of the Great
Empire which has always advocated the policy of the open door and free trade in laboui-,
Avhich has welcomed to its shores immigrants from all parts of the world, without excep-
tion, tlie presumption is that the Chinese are rightly here like all other people. If they
are to be restricted, if they are to be excluded, if the door open to all others is to be shut
to them, some special and good reason should surely be shown for so doing. The govern-
ment has been asked to restrict if not to prohibit Chinese immigration altogether : the
people who ask this have had the fullest opportunity to come before your Commission

OiV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 305

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

:ui(l to present their ease. This I submit they have wholly faileil to ilo, ami not onlv
have they failed, but the e\iilence of independent witnesses estal^lishes the very contrary
of what these people alleged. Tlieir statement was that the presence of the Chinese was
a detriment to the country. The evifience is that far from being a detriment to the
country, the Cliinese are a benefit. So far from injuring the white w(H-kiiig man they
atlnid the cheaj)er class of labour whicii is re(iuired for some of our mr)st important
industries, thus providing positions for a larger numbei- of whites in the better paid
classes t)i woi'k. They are indisjiensable for the maintenance of salmon canning and the
lumljer business, two of our most important indu.strie.s, and as domestic servants for the
well-being and comfort of iiome life in the province.

EXTRACTS FlU):\r THE UEPOIVr OF THE PHILIPPINE COMMISSION.

Er/iibUir.
MEMORANDUM OX THE flllXESE IN THE I'M ILII'PIXES.

Since very ancient times the Chinese ha\"e had commercial I'elations witii tiie Fili-
pinos, .said relations having existed before Spanish dominion in the islands.

As the number of the Chinese was continually in(.'reasing, and al.s(.) as it was neces-
sary for the security <.)f the colony to segregate them from the rest of the poj)ulation, a
large building, or market, with numerous habitations was built for them as a measure of
governmental policy. This market was called the ' Market place of San Fernando.'

Tliis market place served as a home for the Chinese, so that they could not diffuse
their religion among the natives, anfl it was situated on the (jther side of the Pasig
Ri\er under the fire of ' Citadel,' as Fort Santiago was formerly called.

They made good profits, and in a few years the market place or ' alcaiceria,' wliich
was theirs exclusively, proved too small to accommodate all who came from China, and
another building called the ' Parian ' was constructed for a like purpose. ' Parian ' is
a Mexican word, which means market place, and the new building, which was made for
the Chinese was situated where at pi'esent the I'uined botanical gardens are, although
.some historians confound this ' Parian ' ^^•ith the one which existed in Intramuros, at
the end of Victoria street, where the municipal school for girls is at present.

The Chinese immigration kept on growing in nmnbers and became a sort of inva-
sion, and the time came when there were not enough habitations in both the alcaiceria
aufl the parian to acconmiodate them. In the midflle of the seventeenth century there
were some 30,000 in the neigliVjorhood of Manilla alone.

Although historians attirm tliat at this time the principal occupation of this great
number of Chinese was agriculture, nevertheless it is to be supposed that many of them
did not have any \isible work or means of acquiring it, and thej* audaciously revolted
against Spanish sov^ereignty in the islands. Although there were, as has been said, some
30,000 of them, they carried their audacity to such an extreme that they had Manilla in
a state of siege for some days, and, although they were I'epulsed a number of times, they
persisted in their project of taking the capital of the Archipelago by assault.

After various futile attempts they were convinced that they could not concpxer in
the Philippines and finally withdi-ew, raising the siege, and then those who had been
besieged pursued them to a point beyonrl Kainta, slaughtering them without pity until
they were in a state of complete and shameful defeat.

As a resvdt of this Chinese revolt against .the sovereignty of Spain in the Archi-
l>elago greatei' restrictions on their immigration were imposed.

In spite of the.se restrictions the Chinese colony gained in strength N\'hat it had lost
in extent, because these restrictions ga\'e the Chinese the undeniable right to manage
their own commercial affairs and eiuible them to always coii-upt the administrative
elements in the Philippines, and this was the natural consequence of the Spanish rules
and royal orders referring to the Chinese.
" 54—20

306 REPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

It was necessary to punish the Chinese foi' their attempt to take Manilla, and for
the innumerable acts of treason which they were accused of, and consenuentlv, in the
time of Don Simon de Anda (1 762-1 76i). it is calculated that some 8,000 died in the
central proxinces of Luzon, who were exterminated in those towns by the oider of tliat
Governor General, only those who lived in Manilla and its suburbs remaining alixe.

As a conset|uence of this anti-Chinese campaign many of them who sur\i\ed this
assassination emigrated to their own country, and the number of Chinese establisherl in
these islands diminished little liy little.

Onlv those remained in the Philippines who were secure in doing their business and
making a li\ing freely anfl with more security than in their native counti'v.

This noteworthy diminution continued, until from 1^40-1846 there were only 5,000
in all the Philippines, a small number as compared with other times.

Lastly, the Chinese have always been the preeminent cpiestion with the Governors-
General, and when Senor Norzagaray gave up his command in the Philippines in 1859
he wrote an extensive paper, in which, among other things, the seven or eight thousand
Chinese who were in the archijielago were spoken of.

This Governor General, referring to the Chinese, said ; " One of the most difficult
cjuestions remains to be solved on my giving up of my connnand — that of the commei'ce
carried on by the Chinese in the provinces.

The clamor against these Asiatics is general in the country, because competition
with them is not possible ; Si>iiniards, Mestizos, Indians, all give them a five field in
retail business when they enter.

Their few needs, their patience under every insult and vexation" and sacrifice, and
personal labour which they can utilize, except agriculture, the ease with which they
adapt themselves to the customs of the natives and to the exchange of produce and to
all the needs of the consumer ; the insignificance of their personal exjienses ; the manner
of their life ; the close cooperation which thev maintain among themselves, all place them
in a situation ad\antageous to them, but not always to commercial progress.

The truth is, that they have monopolized retail business; they make the employment
of cajiital by individuals of other races impossible. It is also true that they do not start
any enterprise nor undertaking of imjiortance. They hoard by instinct and hide or take
away their capital from the cc)untry, which capital in other hands would be a powerful
element of progress and advancement, but is it possible and would it be prudent to at
once reverse the customs of the country which is nf)w accustomed to the sei-vices of the
Chinese in the retail business referred to/

Are the complaints of thousands of individuals of other races sufficient warrant fur
the prevention of their invading activity in all industries ?

An energetic reaction against the Chinese has existed during the last two years in
Java, in Australia and in California.

In the voluminous report to which I referred in the beginning, it is set forth liv
approval and by some royal orders that they be protected. I believe that it would be
possible to establish a means of quieting these complaints and at the same time avoiding
the consequent setback in business, to wit, to take the prohibitixe measures which ha\e
l)een adopted in the countries mentioned.

The commercial invasion of the provinces by the Chinese could oidv be advantageous
under certain restrictions.

The gathering of the fruits of the countiy for exportaticm, which u[i to the present
has been done by Spaniards, natives and mestizos, should ct)ntinue in their hands, for
this tendency to fraud, to adulteration, and to monopoly, which is characteristic of the
Chinese, would be prejudicial to their production.

The industrial tax is called upon to esttablish a just balance in trade and protection
in favour of the national races in the Philippines,. The industrial tax which the Chinese
pay at present is insufficient for the purpose, on account of the insignificant rates which
it fixes.

One of the greatest difficulties which this question presents is the great amount
which has been written upon this subject, and the impossibility of the superior authori-
ties of the best judgment understanding it in all its phases and all the details which

liou

d be known.'

ON CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 307

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

This is the most interesting part ot" tlie paper of Senor Xorzagaray, in wliieh he
makes it clear that it would be better for Spain to be impo\erishetl by taking energetic
and sa%nng measures against these Asiatics than tliat these Philippines should be ruined
bv foreign commercial absorption, of wliich one Spanish colony was the victim.

Since the administration of said Senor Norzagaray up to the beginning of the war
between the United States of America and Spain, the influence of the Chinese in the
Philippines has lieen increasing, both in connnerce and industry, and in their wealth
and the \olume of their production.

The Chinese engaged in a variety of industries and mercantile pursuits in tlie
Phili]>pine.s, and in 18.30 the administration classified them as follows : (1) wholesale
merchants ; (2) retail merchants with dry goods shops ; silk merchants, shoemakei-s,
druggists, ink manufacturers, soapmakers, barbers, blacksmiths, carpenters and dealevs
in notions ; (3) water cai-riers. boatmen, cooks, and dealers in firewood; (\) workmen
and servants of all those comprised in the three preceding classes. Those of the first
class paid a tax of 810 a month : those of the second. Si : those of the third, $2, and
those of the fourth 81.

We shall make a short study of the importance of Chinese commerce in the Philip-
pines, especially in some of the richest pro\-inces.

In Isabella and Cagayan, a short time before the governmental tobacco monopolv
was abolished, there were very few Chinese, and their action in business was insignifi-
cant, and the Spanish Government paid the owners of the tobacco crops punctuallv.

Ne\ertheless, a time came in which the Spanish administration was behintl in
nearlv all of its payments — ])rincipally in the most important ones — and the planters of
these provinces were among the many victims of these delays.

The Chinese then took ad\antage of the precarious situation by making usurious
loans to those who lacked the means of realizing on their crops, thus securing the
bu-iness of those fertile provinces, both by means of the capital which they advanced,
and in the han ling and monopoly of tobacco.

Their commercial supremacy reached such a point that once thev had monopolized
tobacco, almost every leaf which came to Manilla from Cagavan and Isabella was their
property, and they stored it in warehouses and sold it later to the factories already
established in the capital at a good profit.

Thev were not contented with the sale of toliacco in the leaf alone, but thev also
established factories to manufacture it. thus causing other factories which had been in
operation to close up by the ruinous competition which the Chinese raised against
them.

As they had monopolized tobacco in the leaf, thev raised the price of that commoditv
to a fabulous height, thus insuring the ruin of the other manufacturers, their commer-
cial adversaries.

Nevertheless, it umst be mentioned tliat cigars made bv Chinese factories sotm
lost credit in foreign markets through the poor workmanship and the detestable manner
in which thev mixed the diffeient classes of leaves.

The Chinese were not discouraged by this, and although the sales of the jiroducts
of their factories did not gain them the profits which thev expected, thev continued
aciiuiring lands in the provinces mentioned, botli liv loaning on mortgages and bv making
contracts of sale in advance.

In the ])rovinces of Hocos and Pangasinan the Chinese, bv their connuereial
inrtuence, succeeded in paralyzing to a certain extent the progress which was noticeable
some years befoie in the product Dn of said ]>ro\inces.

All the iiiterioi- trade of Canarines Sur is monopolized by them, and both tliat
province and Hocos Sur seem, for this reason, to be stationary as rega ds the ordinarv
march of commerce and industry.

In Batangas the Chinese ha\e not been able to overcome the natives in this
unequal struggle for life, for alth ugh the inhabitants of Batangas were beaten in the
trade of the interior thev did not lose heart on this account, and devoted themselves
with great diligence to the production of coffee and sugar, and to the breeding of beef
cattle and swine, and the Chine.se were not able to outdo them.
54—201

308 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

In Albay, also, the Chine e extended their bu.sine.ss, espeeiallv in henij), and were
the cause, as some merchants assert, of the discredit which that vahiable fibre suffered
from in the markets of America and Europe by the l)ad faitli witli which tliev separated
tlie different classes for which there was a demand in the foreign markets.

Since 1860 the Chinese have been prospei'ous in Iloilo and the island of Xegros,
which islands have always been of great commercial and agricultural importance, even
before he Chinese came here.

In Jolo, Cottabato and Zamboanga the Chinese have also done business both in
trading with the natives of said islands and with the Philippine and Sjianish troojw in
garrison there, and in dejiling with the Moros in shells, pearls and other valuable
products. t

The town of Taal merits special mention, for the natives there have not allowed
the Chinese to establish themselves in that town, in spite of their vigourous persistence.

The Chinese were assassinated there and the criminals were never detected, for
which reason the Chinese decided not to oppose the determination of the people of Taal,
who carrv on a comparatively prosperous commercial life without necessity for foreigners
to trade in the products.

We can now judge how it is that the Chinese were alwavs successful in the com-
mercial competition which the}' raised in the Philippines.

To put it in one word, they were successful because 'there exists among them a
cooperative protection incapable of being destroved either bv law or bv anv measures
which may be taken to counteract it.

In fact, they succeed e\eiTwhere in obtaining a monopolv <if wholesale and retail
trade, becoming by the unity of purpose which they possess the proprietors of mechanic
arts and trades in the country. They lend each other cooperative aid and all work
together for the same end. thus forming a vast connnercial society with which it is
impossible for other merchants who work separately to compete.

Some foreign business houses established in Manilla import drv goods from Europe
and turn them over for prompt and certain sale to a small number of Chinese merchants,
in whose power to collect the value of the merchandise they have confidence.

These merchants divide the articles received among the shops of their countrymen
and also send quantities of the goods to their principal agents in the provinces, who in
turn distribute them among the different Chinese who have open .shops in the towns and
pirovincial capitals.

Thev previouslv mark the prices on the articles and the shopkeepers are not allowed
to reduce them under any pretext.

Under this system the result is that although there may be many Chinese establish-
ments in one town, the same article exists or mav be secured in all of them, and the
price is uniform in high and low alike and only follows a general rule whether the
article is plenty or scarce in the place.

When a Chinese immigrant lands in ^Manilla he comes under the management of a
headman, who lends him -S-^O or more and to whom the future merchant is directly
responsible.

He then begins to work in the most laborious and humble emplo^inent, but in
spite of his small compensation he is able, by force of self-denial, to save a quantity
sufficient to free him from the powei- of the headman, to whom he returns the quantity
advanced to him. Fi-om that time on he works on his own account, protecting and
being protected bv his countrymen, until he accumulates sufficient capital to return to
his eountrv and there enjoy his savings for the rest of his life.

The principle of political economv is well known which lays down the rule that in
order for a country to obtain achantages from iumiigration the inmiigrants should bi'ing
in capital, new industries, or superior knowledge to j)erfect industries already in exist-
ence, or at least that saifl imniigrants should apply their energies to pursuits productive
of gain, not only to the immigrants themselves, but to society in. general in the country
in which thev have established themsehes. or that they finally become assimilated with
the people of the country, thus giving, although indirectly, stimulus to certain professions
and industries, whose progress is a consequence of the increase of the number of the

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE I MMIO RATION 309

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

inhabitants of the town. Chinese, on coming to the I'hihpjiines, ilo nut comply with
any of the conditions of this welhknowu princiiilc of pohtical econcniiy, wliicli ;iii' desir-
able [)oints to be looked for in innniyi'ants.

Why, then, should they be allowed to immigrate in such great numbers, when their
presence in the Philippines is not a guarantee of prosjierity and progress for the rest of
the inhabitants of the Archipelago?

According to a census which was published in 187G, there were 30,797 Chinese in
this Archipelago. In ten years this number grew to 99,152

In every society there is an unfailing balance established between services and
remuneration by the economic laws of sup])ly and demand as well as by professional
necessities.

The harmonious ajiplication of this balance brings about pultlic- order and general
jirosperitv. The deficiency or exce.ss in any of the number of either employers or
employees disturbs this balance, which, under projier conditions, makes the social edifice
symmetrical.

In a people like the Filipino peoplr, whose wholesale bu.siness is almost entirely in
the hands of the Chinese, one cannot hope for the creation of small capitals, which, being
added to by labour and economy, serves as a means of impro\ing citj' property, and for
the extension of agriculture and many useful undertakings which are not known in the
Philippines as yet, and which, undt)ubtedly, will never be known through steps taken
by the Chinese capitalists.

Those who devote themselves to retail business are, in all countries of the world,
those who are stockholders in small enterprises which promise profits to small capitals
w-hen associated, and here this class of merchants is almost entirely Chinese, and conse-
tpiently hostile to the most useful projects for the material progress and general
improvement of these islands.

The Chinese are one of the principal causes of the commercial and industrial
backwardness of the Archipelago. It is impossible here, on account of the competition
which thej' make, to attain a position in the middle class of society. This class is the
protector and promoter of great enterprises whicli do not jiromise immediate di\idends,
and which must be perfected by means of shares which represent a great cajiital, that is
to say, by the collection of the funds of many contributors.

After having read what we have set forth in reference to what was formerly called
' the Chinese pi-oblem,' the following conclusions, briefly, may be deduced : (1.) The
Chinese were protected here with undue liberality by the Spanish Government to the
prejudice of Spain herself and of the Philippines. (2.) Furthermore, the losses which
the Philippines suffer are considerable, because it is the custom of the Chinese to consume,
as far as the necessaries of life are concerned, the food, clothing and other articles whicii
they import from their own country for this ])urpose.

The first of these conclusions is now a matter of history, for the American Govern-
ment, on taking the place of the Spianish Go\'ernment here, will not allow the Chinese
or their attorneys t<;) bifl upon contracts with the State, nor will it tolerate frauds upon
the administi-ation, which the Chinese commit by concealing their industries or their
numbers. The second conclusion which refers to the losses which the country suffers
by the spirit of monopoly of the Chinese, which is shown by their use of imported arti-
cles from their own nation, must also be taken into account, and these losses may be
counteracted by the following means : (1) To make all articles coming from China,
which are designed for the individual consumption of these Asiatics, such as fresh or
preserved provisions, fruit, clothing, shoes, and others, pay heavy duties in the custom
house. (2) To raise the customs duty on opivnn to a very high rate, in order that the
smoker (jf this extract may pay the country indirectly for the use of it. Opium smokers
will be clone away with in this manner. (3) To prevent the Chinese from engaging in
agriculture, which the Spanish desired them to do, for they woukl not perceive that
apart from the culti\ation of the soil it is the surest guarantee of the future of the Phil-
ippines, since the sovereignty of Spain and the absorption of the colony by the friars has
■ceased to exist. Horticulture and floriculture alone should lie allowed to the Ciiinese

310 REPOKT OF HOYAL COilMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

THE HONOURABLE OLIVER P. MORTONS VIEWS ON THE CHARACTER,

EXTENT AND EFFECT OF CHINESE IMMIGRATION

TO THIS COUNTRY.

Note. — ]Mr. Morton was Chairraau of the Commission appointed in lS9(i toimiuiie
into Chinese and Japanese Immi<!ration and it would appeal' made a minority repoi't,
of which the following is all that can be found, a portion having been lost or mislaid.

(Section A missing.)

A discussion of the effect of Chinese immigration upon the country involves many
considerations, and any proposition looking to its prohibition or limitation would require
us to consider some of the fundamental principles of the theory and practice of our gov-
ernment. It is our proudest boast that American institutions are not arbitrary in their
character : are not the simple creations of force and circumstance, but based upon great
and eternal doctrines of the equality and natural rights of men. Tlie foundation-stone
in our political edifice is the declaration that all men are eijual ; that thev are endowed
bv their Creator with inalienable rights : that among these are life, liljerty, and the
pursuit of happiness : that to obtain these, govei'nments are instituted among men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the go\"erned. We profess to belie\"e
that God has given to all men the same rights, without regard to race or color. While
this doctrine is beautiful and simple in its enunciation, it has taken one hundred years
to establish it by legal formula in our system of government ; while there are still large
numbers who practically deny the truth of it by preventing it from being carried into
execution, and who do nt)t in their minds admit that the coloured race have the same
natural rights with white men. And it is unfortunately true that there are many who
yet believe that the coloured man should be in bondage ; that sla\ery is his normal con-
dition and has the sanction of the Almighty. We hope that increasing intelligence and
the changed condition of our cc)untry will, at a time not far distant, obliterate such
belief, and that all peoi)le, without regard to party or section, will believe in the equal
i-ights of men, and recognize that doctrine in the administration of State and national
governments,

A cardinal principle in our government, proclaimed in the declaration of indepen-
dence, in the articles of confeder.ation, and rejognized by our constitution, is, that our
country is open to immigration from all parts of the world i that it was to be tlie a.sylum
of the oppressed and unfortunate.- It is true that when the government was formed,
and for nearly three-quarters of a century, no immigration was contemplated except from
nations composed of white people : but the principles upon which we pirofessed U) act,
and the invitation we extended to the workl, cannot and ought not to be limited or con-
trolled bv race or colour, nor by the character of the civilization of the countries from
which innnigrants may come. Among the nations of Eurcjpe ci\ ilization widely varies,
conflicting in many impoi'tant particulars and differing greatly in degree. Nor should
the operation of those jvrinciples lie limited on acct)unt of the religious faith of nations.
Absolute religious toleration was regarded by our fathers as of vital inqiortance. Not
only were the different sects of christians to be tolerated, but the deist, atheist, the
]SIohannnedan and the Buddhist were to be free to express and enjoy their opinions.

One of the greatest objections which has long been urged to the Chinese and
Japanese was their exclusiveness — their refusal to permit the people of other nations to
settle in their midst, or even to travel through their country and acquire a knowledge
of their institutions and condition. This objection has been removed. The doors of
China and Japan have been thrown open, and Americans have the right by the laws of
those countries, to li\e there, to do business, and have comjilete protection ; and, beyond
that, ha\"e rights which we do not give to Chinese and Japanese in this country. If
Americans connnit offences against the laws of China or Japan, they are not to be tried

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 3H

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

and pimislu'd liy the courts of tliosc countries, hut by American consular courts,
appointed \>y our own government. At a time when tiiose countries have adopted a
liberal policy, and in that respect have yielded to western civilization and e.specially
recognized the force of the example and policy of the United States, it is pro-
posed that we shall take a step backward by the adoption of theii- cast-oft'
policy of exclusion. The argument set up here in favour' of this is precisely that
which was so long used to excuse or justify the same policy in China and Japan,
viz.: that the admission of foreigners tendefl to interfere with their ti'ade and the
labour of their peojile, and to corrupt their morals and degrade their religion. Tlie
strength and endurance of our government do not dejiend upon oui' material wealth and
pi'osperity ; on the contrary, the great increase of wealtii and luxury threatens the safety
and cimtinuance of our institutions by impairing the \irtue of the people, their simplicity
and purity of mannei's. as they did in the ancient republics of Greece anrl Rome. Nor
will the safety and jierpetuity of our institutions be insured merely by the general
dift'usion of education] and intelligence. It may be stated, as a proposition established
Ijy experience and reason, that the sheet-anchor of our safety consists in faithful adher-
ence to the cardinal principles upon which our government was established, and the
maintenance of that broad, liberal, and humanitarian policy prinnulgated by our fathers.
If our government shall come to be regarded as purely arbitrary — as the creation of
foi'ce and circumstance, its final demoralization and destruction are foredof)med. Our
greatest, our only absolute security consists in the de\otion of the masses of the peo|)le
to the doctrines u])on which the govei'niuent was founded, and the profound conviction
in the minds of the people that the rights of men are not C(_ftiferred by constitutions or
written enactments, which niiiv be altered or abolished, but are God-given to every
human being born into the world, and cannot be violated by constitutions, enactments,
or governments, without trampling upon natural and inalieTuible rights. For, if we
come to believe tiiat the rights of men are the mere oft'spi'ing of con.stitutions and laws,
bad rulers and wicked factions may deem it expedient to take away the rights of a part
of the people, and gradually to sap, and finally to overturn our institutions. The institu-
tion of slavery and its long maintenance in the doctrine that coloured men had no
natural rights, and tliat slavery was a mere question of political economy or' expedience.
If it is believed that men have no natural rights, arguments and inducements will be
found from time to time to deprive communities or classes of their e(|uality and partici-
pation in government.

Closely allied to these great doctr'ines, and, in fact, a necessar'y outgr'owth of them,
is that policy which thi'ows open the dooi's of our' nation to the jieople of other countries,
who come to escape ojipression or the har-d conditions by which they are surTounded,
and to make our countr'v their home. In per'mitting the ])eople of othei' counti'ies to
come her'e and live and liecome citizens, we have the r'ight to ju'esci'ibe such conditions
arifl create such .safeguar'ds as may protect us from paiqier'ism, cr'ime and disease ; to fix
the period of jn'obaticju and the reasonalile ter'iirs ui)on which tliey nray become citizerrs
and entitlefl to participate in government. To r'egulate inrmigration and pr'escribe the
ter'nrs upon which we will admit men of foreigrr bir'th to the exercise of civil and political
rights is one thing, and their' prohibition or exclusion, in whole or in any part, is quite
another. To make such r'egulations as will pi'otect the interests, morals, and safety of
our people against for'eigners is both our' right arrd duty ; and in the exer'cise of a sound
discretion, I do rrot say that we nray not discrimirrate among the nations, and exact
ter'ms and c(jir(liti(jns frorrr the peojile of one couirtr'v that we do rrot deerrr necessary as
to others. We have always nrafle this discr'imiiratioir with regar'd to the r'ight to
become citizens, by [)ernritting rroire but white persons to be natur'alized. As to all
other r'ights of for'eigrrer-s comirrg to our shores to wor'k, to tr'ade, or' to live arrd accjuire
property, we ha\'e rrever made any distinction. To flo that rrow would be a gr'eat in-
novatioir uporr the policy and tr'aditions of the governrrrerrt, and would be a long step in
the denial of the br'otherhood of rrrarr, and the lir-oad humanitar'ian policy inaugurated by
our fathers.

The limitation of the r'ight to beconre rratur'alized to white jier'sorrs was placed in
the law when slavery was a controlling influence in our' gi>\eirrirrent, was ruairrtained by

312 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

the power of that institution, and is now retained bv the lin,ij;ering prejudices growing out
of it. After having aljolished slavery, and Ijy auienfhnents to our ccjnstitution and the
enactment of variou.s statutes establishing the equal civil and political rights oi all men,
without regard to race oi' colour, and, at a time when we are endeavouring to over-
come the prejudices of education and of race and to secure to coloured men the e(|ual
enjoyment of their rights, it would be inconsistent and unsound jiolicy to renew and re-
assert the prejudices against race and another form of civilization by excluding the
ci)i>])er-coloured people of Asia from our shores. It would be again to recognize the
distinctions of race and to establish a ne^\' governuieutal policy upon the basis of colour
and a different form of cixilization and religion. In California the antipathy to the
Mongolian race is equal to that which was formerly entertained in the older states
against the negro: and although the reasons given for this antijiathy are not the same,
and the circumstances of its exhibition are diHerent, still it belongs to the family of
antipathies springing from race and religion. As Americans, stanrling ujion the great
doctrine to which I ha\e referred, and seeking to educate the masses into their belief,
and charged with the administration of the laws by which equal rights and protection
shall be extended to all races and conditions, we cannot now safely take a new departure,
which, in another form, shall resurrect and reestablish those odious distinctions of race
which bi'ought ujion us the late civil wan and from which we fondly hoped that God in
his providence had delivered us forever. If the Chinese in California were white pco]:le,(
being in all other respects what they are, I do not believe that the complaints and war-|
fare made against them would have existed to any cimsideralile extent. Their difference)
in colour, in dress, manners and religion have, in my judgment, more to do with this
hostility than their alleged vices or any actual injury tt) the white people in California.
The inquiiy which the committee were instructed to make does not involve the political
rights or privileges oi the Chinese. As the law .stands, they cannot be natui'alized and
become citizens ; and I do not know that any mo\ement or projiosition has been made
in any quarter recently to change the law. But the question is, whether- they shall be
permitted to come to our country to work, tt) engage in trade, to acipiiie proiierty, or to
follow any pursuit.

But before entering upon the discussion of any other princij^les. I may be permitted
to observe that in my judgment the Chinese cannot be protected in the Pacific .States
while remaining in their alien condition. Without representation in the legislature or
Congress, without a voice in the selection of t)thcers, and surrounded by tierce and, in
many I'espects, unscrui)ulous enemies, the law will be found iusutticient to screen them
from persecution. Complete protection can l)e given them only by allowing them to
become citizens and acquire the right of suffrage, when their votes woulil become
important in elections, and their ]ier.secutions, in great part, converted into kindly
solicitation.

In considering any proposition to prohiliit Chinese immigration, or to limit it, we
must bear- in mind the fact, fully established by the evidence, that the Chinese landing
vipon our Pacific ct>ast comes entirely from the British port of Hong Kong. Though
subjects of the Chinese Empire, they embark at a British port, and in that respect are
invested with the rights of British subjects, and in any legislation or treaty by which
we would propose to limit or to forbid the landing upon our shores of Chinamen, or any
other class of people emliarking at a British port, we must deal with the British •gov-
ernment, and not that of China. AVith the law-s of England, or the marine regulations
by which the people of China are permitted to enter a Briti.sh prmince and to embai'k
from a British ]iort, we have nothing whatever to do ; but it is quite clear that any
legislation of oui's which would inteiiere with the landing upon our shores of any class
of people cinliarking at a British port, whether they be Chinese or Japanese subjects,
would be an interference with the trade and commei'ce of that port. It may be an
inqxirtant conmiercial mattei' to Great Britain that the port of Hong Kong shall be open
to the reception of people from China or any other part of the world wlu) propose to
emigrate to the United States or any other country, and if we cut off such emigration,
in whole or in part, it is not an interference with the government of China, for which
we should answer to that sovernraent, but witii the sjovernment of Enijland, Our

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 313

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

refusal to permit a Chinaiiian tn land, wlm had embarked at a British ]iort iijioii a
British vessel, would certainly be a question with the English government, anfl not
w ith that of China ; and the fact that the person thus forbidden to land was a China-
man, wlio had never sworn alU'gianre to the English government, wcmlri nut in the least
vary tlie c|uestitin.

In dealing with this (piestion, we should c<insider and act upon general jirinciples,
and shoulfl hesitate liefore adopting a new policy which would he at variance with tlie
genius of our institutions, and enaljle the world to say that the prineiiiles upon which
we prcifessed to estal)lish our go\ernment in the beginning and upon which we
took our place anuing the nations, have yielded to considerations of doubtful expedi-
ency, in conflict with our general professions and character. As before stated, our
strength as a republic consists in our faithful adherence to the doctrines upon which it
was estalilished, and to the education of our peoi)le in their truth, without regard to
anv temporary interest or condition. The most of the Chinese were labouring men, who
came from the rural districts in China, and were accustomed to agricultural pursuits.
A few of them were scholars in their own country, some of them were merchants, and
a very few mechanics. As a rule, they are industrious, temperate and honest in their
dealings. 8ome thousands of them are employed as household servants in the cities
and in tlie country. In this capacity the testimony generally concurs in giving them a
high chai'acter. They very readily learn to perform all kinds of household duty, are
devoted to their emjiloyment, aiul soon become exceedingly skilful The testimony
pnjved that they went to all parts of the State to ser\'e in that capacity, when other
servants or help of that kind could not be obtained from the cities, and that if they
were banislied it would be very hard, in fact, as many of the witnesses said, impossible
to suj)ply their places. As labourers upon the farms and in the gai'dens and vineyards,
nearly all the witnesses speak of them in the highest terms. Colonel Hollister, one of
the largest farmers in California and a man of great intelligence, testified that without
the Chinese the wheat anrl other crops in California coidrl nfit be hai'vested anfl taken
to market ; that white labour could not be obtained for prices that would enable the
farmer to carry on his business ; that any considerable increa.se in the jn'ice of labour
would render the production of wheat and almost exerv othei- agri<-ultural jiroduct
unprofitable, antl they woulfl liave to be aliandoned.

In the construction of railroads and otlier public \\x)rks of California, the Chinese
have lieen of the greatest service and have performed the largest part of the labour.
Several distinguished gentlemen connected with railroads testified that without Chinese
labour they could not have been constructed, and that if the companies had been com-
pelled to rely upon white labour, it would have been so difficult to procure and so costly
that the works must have been abandoned, and in fact would not have been undertaken.
As labourers upon the public works they were entirely reliable ; worked more hours
than white men ; were not gi\en to strikes : and never undertook, by combinations, to
control the price of labour.

Tlie chief point against the Chinese, and that which was put forth as the ground
of movements against them, was, that tiiey workerl for less wages than white people,
and thus took theii' labour, or com])elled them to work for wages ujion which they could not
sul)sist and maintain theii- families and educate their children. That Chinamen work for
lower wages and perform the same amount of labour for less money than white people is
un(|uestionably true. They have largely performed the hardest and lowest kind of
labour in the State, such as the c(mstruction of railroads, reclaiming tlie tule lands,
and every form of di-udgery and unskilled labour ; but that they have injuriously inter-
fered with the white people of California or have done them a serious injury may well
be doubted. The great fact is, that there is to-day, and always has been, a scarcity t>f
labour on the Pacific coast. There is work for all who are there, both white and Mongo-
lian, and the State would undoubtedly de\"elop much more rapidly were there more and
cheaper laboui-. There was much intelligent testimony to the fact that the Chinese, by

314 BE PORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

their labour, opened up large avenues and demand for white labour. The Ciiinese per-
form the lowest kind, while the whites monopolized that of a superior eliaraeter. This
was well stated bv ilr. Croeker, a very intelligent witness, largely interested in the
Central Pacitic and Southern California Railroads. In answer to a question as to what
was the effect of Chinese upt)n white labour, and whether it was to depri\e white men
of employment, or had had that effect at any time he said :

' I think that they afford white men labour. I think that their presence here
affords to white men a more elevated class of labour. As I said before, if they .should
drive these 75,000 Chinamen off you would take 75,000 whit« men from an elevated
class of w'ork and put them down to doing this low class of labour that the Chinamen
are now doing, and instead of elevating, you would degrade the white labour to that
extent. For any man to ride through Califin'nia, from one end of this state to the other,
and see the miles upon miles of uncultivated land, and in the nn)untains millions of acres
of timber, and the foot-hills waiting for some one to go and eulti\'ate them, and then
talk about there being too much labour here in the country, is simply nonsense, in my
estimation. There is labour for all, and the fact that the Chinamen are here gives an
opportunity to white men to go in and culti\-ate this land where they could not cultivate
it otherwise.

Again he said —

I think that the presence of the Chinese, as labourers among us, goes very far
toward the material interest oi the country ; that without their labour we would be
thrown back in all branches of industry, farming, mining, reclaiming lands, and eveiy-
thing else. I believe that the effect of Chinese labour upon white labour has an
elevating instead of degrading tendency. I think that e\"ery white labourer who is
intelligent and able to work, who is more than a digger in a ditch, or a man with a pick
and a shovel, who has the capacity of being something else, can get to be something else
by the presence of Chinese labour easier than he could without it. As I said before,
when we were working SOO white men, and that was the extent we could get, we began
U) put on Chinamen. Instead of our white ft)rce decreasing it increased, and when we
had eight, nine, and ten thousand Chinamen on the work, we had from 2,500 to .3,000
white men. Instead of these white men being engaged in shoveling dirt or with a pick
and shovel, they were teamsters, mechanics, foremen, and men in an elevated grade of
labour, recei\Tng wages far above what they would have done if we had had the same
number throwing up the dirtand digging in the rock. I know of a great many instances
where men have come on to the road and taken a foremanship over Chinamen, and have
acquired a little start, which they afterwards used, and they are now independent
citizens, owners of farms, owners of corner groceries and stores in the country towns.

Other evidence showed that bv Chinese labour o\er one million acres of tule land
have been reclaimed. This was work of the hai-dest and most unhealthy character, re-
quiring them to work for a large part of the time in mud and water ; but the lands,
when reclaimed, were occupied aufl cultivated by white men, furnishing a great many
homes, and were in fact the richest and most jiroductixe in California. They also chiefly
performed the work in constructing irrigating canals for farming purposes, and dams
and canals for sujjplNnng the mines with water, by which a \ery large extent of country
was made exceedingly productive, furnishing homes and empknTiient for thousands of
white men, and by which also the mines were made jirofitable and created a large
demand for white labour. The evidence further showed that the railroads chiefly con-
structed by these people were the pioneers in settlement and agriculture : that the
settlements followed the railroads ; that wherever a railroad was constructed the lands
were taken up and converted into farms and homesteads. While there was complaint
that the Chinese by (feeir cheap labour took it from white people, inquiry failed to show
that there was any considerable number of white people in California out of employ-
ment, except those who were wilfully idle : that there was work, and remunerative
work, for all whi> chose to perform it ; that among the most bitter enemies of the Chinese
in the city of San Francisco were the hoodlums, who were nt>torious idlei's and ruttians,
and yet made large outcry against Chinese clieaji labour. That there have been many
instances where Chinamen have been employed in preference to white people because of

ox CJJIXESE A.Xn JA/'AXESf; 1. MM 1(1 RAT ION 315

SEESION'AL PAPER No. 54

their clieaper labour is uiKloubtfdly true, hut not to an extent that could furnish just
eause of complaint requiring legislation or political action for its redress. The field of
labour in California is extensive and \aried in its character, anfl people who fail of
eniplovment in one direction can as a general thing obtain it in another. No sy-item of
laboui' is healthy or profitable which is not free — in which men are not at liberty to
work for such prices as they choose to accept. The field of laboui' must be oj)en to
c<impetition, as is every other branch of business. There is comj)etition among merchants
as to who shall sell the chea])est ; competition among mechanics and maiiufacturei-s :
and as labour is honourable, so it must be free and open to the same competition with
everv other pursuit in life.

The labour [lerformed by the Chinese has tended vei'V greatly to the development
and prosj>erity of California. The testimony of many of the witnesses went to show
that but for Chinese labour the state would not have half the population, property and
profluction she has today. Tlie testimony was quite conclusive upon the point that the
first successful introduction of manufactures into California, in almost every respect,
was owing to the employment of Chinese labour ; that as manufactures progressed and
became firmly established the employment of Chinese gradually diminishf d and white
labour in tfiem largely increased ; and that that change is still going on. But these
manufactures in their infancy could not successfully compete with goods from the
eastern States and Europe, except by employment of the cheapest kind of labour. Mr.
B. 8. Brooks, a distinguished lawyer in San Francisco, who has lived in the state sin'^e
lS-l-9, testified as follows in regard to the ert'ect of Chinese labour in that state. He said :

I have no doubt that the importation or rather the immigration of Chinese to this
State has increasefl its wealth at least one-half ; I think a great deal more. In the fir.st
jilace, the works which they have constructed without their aid would have immediately
increased the taxable wealth of the State at least one-half. In addition to that, I am
satisfied that they have increased the white jjopulation of the State in almost the same
jiroportion, if not quite. I think, without their aid at the present time, the popu-
lation of the State could not be maintained at more than one-half its present amount, if
to that extent. I am satisfied from the inquiries that I have made from all parts (and
it is impossible for me to present all these witnesses before you) that the product of the
State — its chief export, wheat — cannot be produced at the price at which it can be ex-
ported, if the cost of production is increased at all. There is a considerable portion of
the State, including land that has been culti\ated, which will not bear cultivation at
the present time — that is to say, the crop which it will produce will not pay at the pre-
sent price of wheat here for export, anfl it will not pav the cost of its production. The
vielrl of wheat from these lands, as everyone probably knows without any testifying to
it, steadily decreases. (Section D is missing).

In our treat}' with China, concluded in 1868, conmionlv known as the ' Burlinganie
treaty,' I find the following articles : —

ARTICLE V.

The United States of .\nierica and the Emperor of China cordially recognize the
inherent and inalienable right of man to change his home and allegiance, and also the
nnitual advantage of the fi'ee migration and emigration of their citizens and subjects,
respecti\ely, from one country to the other, for [lurposes of curiosity, of trade, or as
permanent residents. The high contracting i)arties, therefore, join in reprobating any
other than an entirely voluntary emigration for these purposes. They conse(|uently
agree to pass laws making it a (leual offense for a citizen of the United States or Chinese
subject to take Chinese subjects either to the Unitefl States or to any other foreign
country, or for a Chinese subject or citizen of the United States to take citizens of the
United States to China, or to any other foreign country, with<jut their free and volun-
tary consent respectively.

316 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1932
ARTICLK VI.

Citizens of the United States visiting or residing in China .shall enjoj' the same
privileges, immunities, or exemptions in respect to travel or residence as may there be
enjoyed by the citizens or subject.s of the most favoured nation. And, reciproeall}',
Chinese subjects visiting or residing in the United States, .shall enjoy the same privileges,
immunities and exemptions in respect to travel or residence as may there be enjoyed bv
the citizens or subjects of the most favoured nation. But nothing herein contained
shall be held to confer naturalization upim citizens of the United States in China, nor
upon the subjects of China in the United States.

ARTICLK VII.

Citizens of the Un't3d States shall enjoy all the privileges of thepulilic educational
institutions under the control of the goveinment of China ; and recijimcally Chinese
subjects shall enjoy all the privileges of the public educational institutions under the
control of the government of the United States, which are enjoyed in the respective
countries by the citizens or subjects of the most favoured nation. The citizens of the
United States may freely establish and maintain schools within the Empire of China at
those places where foreigners are by treaty permitted to reside, and reciprocallv, Chinese
subjects mav enjov the same privileges and immunities in the United States.

In the foregoing articles we find a strong recognitit)n of the inherent and inalienable
right of man to change his home and his allegiance, and that Chinese subjects visiting
or residing in the United States, shall possess the same jn-ivileges, immunities and
exemptions as mav be hei'e enjoyed by the citizens and subjects of the most fa\(:)ured
nation. When this treaty was eonchided with China, it was regartled liy the whole
nation as a grand triumiih of American diplomacy and ])rinciples, and Mr. Biu'lingame,
on his return to San Francisco, received an extraordinary ovation as a lienefactoi' of his
country, bv having' secured to Americans the protection of the Chinese Government,
and the right to live there and trade (in return foi' which he had guai'anteed similar
rights for the Chinese in the United States), and for having secured from China a
recognition of what may be called the ' great American doctrine ' of the inherent and
inalienable right of man to change his home and his allegiance. For the recognition of
this doctrine by the go\-ernn)ents of Europe we had been strugglimg, by negotiation,
ever since we had a national existence, and had succeeded with them, one by one. And
•within the last eight years we ha\e secured the recognition of the doctrine by Germany
and other states of Europe, that had long held out against us.

In the early days of California the price of laljour was exorbitant, and rendered it
impossible to employ men for any other purpose than mining or in raising pro\ isions
for the support of miners, at a time and at places where transportation was most difficult,
and they could not be brought from other states or countries, except at an enormous
cost. These high prices made it impossible to engage in manufactures or any pursuit
that came into competition with the productions of other countries, and it was otdy
when prices had become greatly reduced, chiefly by the presence of the Chinese, that
California was at all able to send her agricultural productions into the markets of the
world. And it is undoubtedly true, notwithstanding the outcry against Chinese cheap
lalK)ur, that the average rate of wages in California is higher than in any other part of
the United States, and now stands largely in the way of the devek)pment of the State.

It is said that the presence of the Chinese in California prevents the emigration
thither of white people, and therefore stands in the way of the growth of the state. If
such is the fact (which I do not admit) it siirings from the persecution \'isited upon the
Chinamen, and the exaggerated declarations which have been made in excuse for them,
that the Chinese interfere with white labour and leave white people out of work or
reduce their wages by competition below the living point. If white people are deterred

:;.V CHINESE AND J A PANESE IMMIORA TION 317

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

from going to California it is not a legitinuite result of the presence of the Chinese, but
by the gross misrepresentations whieli ha\e been made.

Looking at the question broadly and at the efiect which Chinese labour has exerted
in California, r'uiining through a period of twenty-tive years, I am strongly of the
opinion that but for the presence of the Chinese, California would not now have more
than one-half or two-thirds of her jiresent white population. That Chinese labour has
opened up many avenues and new influstries for white labour, made many kinds of
business possible, and laid the foundation of manufacturing interests that bid fair to rise
to enormous proportions. That the presence of the Chinese, holding out the prospect for
labour at reasonable rates, induced the transfer of large amounts of capital and innnigra-
ti(m to California and of large numbers of business and enterprising men, thus making
California the most inviting field for immigrants from every ('lass of society, including
labouring men ; and lastly, that the labouring men of California have ample emj)lovment
and are better paid than in almost any other part of the country.

But it is said that although Chinese labour was at one time of great value to the
state, and contributefl largely to its settlement and development, that pei-iod is past and
the time is come when the Chinaman can be dispensed with and that his further pres-
ence in California is an injury. In this connection I may speak of the wonderful
production of wheat in the state, the superior quality oi which has made it a favourite
article in the markets of Europe. The system of farming chierty employed is, by the
concurrent testimony of witnesses, rapidly exhausting the land and threatens to laring
about the same condition of the soil which was p'odueed bv the continuous cultivation
of tobacco in Virginia. Much land that was fertile and pi-ofitable for wheat a few years
ago is abandonecl as worthless. On this subject Colonel Hollister testified as follows,
on page 7G8 of the printed record of testimony : —

I find that it is almost impossible to carry on my farming with the cheapest labour
I can get. With the minimum paid for farming work, say iS'io a month and board, I
find that it is imi)Ossible to live. I pay out $5 for every ^4 I get and have done it for
ten years so far as farming is concerned, and yet I claim to be a good farmer. It is not
my fault, it is not the fault of the soil, it is not the fault of the climate, but it is the
fault of the price of laljour. ily own con\iction is from what I know and have seen and
from mv own experiments and what I have seen of mv neighbours, that there is not a
farm in the state scientifically handled, handled well, with a view to the perpetuity of
the soil, with a view to its permanency, without exhaustion, restoring as we take awaj-,
that will survive at $25 a month for labour. A farmer cannot survive on the payment
of a minimum of $25 a month and board. The farm will not pay the labour. Any one
can see that if you pay a man $'2b a month it is $300 a year, and board and incidental
losses of time and so on will go to make up the whole amount at about $500 a year.
Every 160 acres has to turn out $500 a year in gold to pay the help before the farmer
gets one dollar. No farmer in the state can fai-m at that rate.

Mr. Hollister also, on page 769, says :

It is very apparent that we are simply leaving a desert behind us. That is the
history of California farming. We are taking ever)^ pound of bread out of the soil and
sending it to Europe. There are only so many pounds of bread in an acre of land, and
when you take it out there is no more ; you have got to restore the elements. That
requires labour and an expenditure of money. To-day it is a simple drain all the time.
It is a draft upon the bank to pay this exorbitant labour. The farmer will not stand
it, and no man in the world can stand it. I have seen myself twenty crops of wheat
taken off', and that is a fact without a pai-allel anywhere else on the face of the earth, I
think. Yet that land is all going. I have seen here, almost in sight of this town,
eighty bushels of wheat produced to the acre. I have seen the same land, years after-
ward, when you could run a dog through it without striking a stalk. That is poverty ;
that is failure ; and when your soil is bankrujit, your farming is bankrupt : and wlien
your fai'ming is bankrupt connuerce is gone.

3Ir. Brooks says, on page 902 :

There is a considerable portion of the State, including land that has been cultivated,
which will not Ijear cultivaticm at the present time ; that is to say, the crop which it will

318 REPORT OF ROTAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

produce will not pav at the present price of wheat here for export, and it will not pay
the cost of its production. The \neld of wheat from these lands, as every one probably
knows without niv testifvinj; to it, steadily decreases. What Colonel Hollister said agrees
with ray own experience in that respect. T have lieen in the habit of travelling from this
city to the diflerent county seats in diflerent parts of the State, and I have observed a
gradual decline of the product of the land. I think a great portion of the land that is
within reach of the market bv water communication, by natural coniniuiiication, ceases
to be productive. I have liad here for two days, waiting to testify, an Irishman, a small
farmer who lives near Liveiniore. within easy distance of the railroad. He cultivates
his own farm with his own family. He has his accounts for the year with him. He is
a verv prudent, sa^-ing man, and his wife is as hard-working as he is, and liis children
assist him. He gave me the figures. I forget what the figures are now, but his
expenses were considerably above his income, and he told me he should have to
discontinue the cultivation of his farm. He has a mortgage on it, and he has no hopes
whatever of paving the mortgage, and he says he must give it up. That is a farm
within easv reach, and it is not an exliausted farm by any means : it is new land,
comparatively.

Other witnesses testified very strongly to the same facts, anfl that the wheat lands
of California were being gradually exhausted, and would soon be adandonetl, and when
new land could no longer be had, the wheat culture of California would be at an end ;
and with it, the chief source of agricultural prosperity. For this there are two princi-
pal causes : first, the facility of procuring new land : and, second, the high price of
labour, which forbids the application of those principles by which lands are improved
and preserved. With the same amount of labour at present prices which is bestowed
by the farmer upon the wheat lands east of the Mississippi River, wheat culture in Cali-
fornia would be unprofitable, and could not be carried on. California has progressed
with more rapidity in wealth and population than any other state in the Union, in .spite
of our distance, and the time and expense necessary to get there, until the opening of
the Union Pacific Railroad within the last few years.

The testimony shows that the intellectual capacity of the Chinese is fully eipial to
that of white people. Their ability to aci:|uire the yiechanic arts, and to imitate every
process and form of workmanshij), ranks veiy high, and was declared by many of the
witnesses to be above that of white people : and their general intellectual power to
undei'stand mathematics, and master any subject presented to the human understanding,
to be (|uite equal to that of any other race. Judge Haydenfeldt, a ^ery intelHgent wit-
ness, and for several years a member of the Supreme Court, testified as follows : —

Q. How does the intellectual ability of the Chinaman, so far as your observation
enables you to judge, compare with that of Americans in the .same corresponding ela.ss ]
— A. I think their general intelligence is greater, ily impression is, from my informa-
tion, and observation, that there are very few Chinamen of the ordinary labouring class
who cannot read and write their own language. In my intercourse with them. I find
them always quick to understand and very quick to appreciate. They exhibit also a
ready intelliirence, much more so than you will generally find among the or inary laliour-
ing class of whites.

Q. What is the general knowledge or comi)rehension of the Chinese of the char-
acter of onr institutitms and the nature of government ? — A. It would be very hard to
say. It is a subject that they never speak upon at all, and if they are ever addressed
in regard to it, it is in the most general manner, relating to the administration of the
laws or something of that kind. They recognize perfectly that every man is equal
before the law, and that there is a redress for every wrong ; and they understand also
that if they fail to get the redress, it is from the lack of evidence, or from the lack of
catchino- the culprit. They understand that our courts are conducted in the most judi-
cious manner for the purpose of ascertaining what is right and what is wrong. These
ifleas I have derived from occasionally having interviews with them where they have
had business with the courts.

ox ClIIKESE AXD J A PA XESE IMMIGKA TIOX 319

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Mr. Coi'iieliu.s B. 8. Gihlw, an adjuster ut' inai'iiu' lo.s.ses, testiHed as follous, cm page
530 :

As iiu'ii of Ini.siiiess I consider thai the Cliinese merchants are fully equal to our
merchant.s. A.s men of integrity, I have never met a more honourable, high-minded,
correct, and truthful set of men than the Chine.se merchants of our city. I am drawn in
contact with people from all nations, all the merchants of our city, in our adjustments.
I have never had a case where the Cliinese have attempted to undervalue their goods or
bring fictitious claims into the adjustments.

Again, on page .5.31, he says :

Q. Are their losses generally adjusted without law suits? — A. I never had a law
suit with them or ne\"er had a complaint from them in mv life. You have got to get
their confidence, and explain to them, and thev generally go through with the figui'ing
themselves. They can figure \ery fast and very correctly, and when thev are convinced
everything is right, there is no trouble. There is no class of people that pay up as
quickly as the Chinese. On Saturday we send them notice that the a\'erage is closed,
and on Monday, by ten or twelve o'clock, all the certificates are paid. I have had fifty
and sixty thousand (lollars in a case, and they would come straight forward and pav it
before twelve o'clock, while we have to send around' to the other merchants a month and
sometimes two months before we get it all from them.

Rev. Mr. Loomis, who was a missi<mary in China from 1844 to 1850, and who
had been engaged as a missionarv among the Chinese in California from 1859 to the
present time, sairl (page 4(5:2) :

Q. What have you to say of the intellectual capacities of the Chinese generally ?
— A. The history of China, the permanency of the government, the fact of its continued
existence through all the ages since the dispersion from Babvlon, and to-dav a stronger
nation than ever before, answers that (|uestion ; the career of such men as Yung Wing,
(mce a poor l)oy in the streets of Macao, now honoured with his LL. D. from New Haven
College, where he graduated with honours ; the rapid progress and high standing of the
Chinese sturlents in our eastern institutions ; the essay of one of the Lai 8un family,
which to(jk the prizes in such institution as Phillips Academy (and those students are
taken from all classes of society, but largely from Canton province) ; the progress made
by the scholars in all our mission schools — their enterprise, skill, and success in all
branches of business which they undertaken- all these facts are sutticient answers to the
(|uestion, 'Have the Chine.se intellectual capacitv f

Mr. Heydenfelflt, on page 511, testifies :

Q. How does the intellectual ability of the Chinaman, so far as voui' observation
enables you to judge, compare with that of Americans in the same corresponding class ?
— A. I think their general intelligence is greater. Mv imjiression is, from mv infornui-
tion and observation, that there are very few Chinamen of the ordinaiv labouring class
who cannot read and write their own language. In my intercourse with them 1 find
them always (piick to understand and verv quick to appreciate. Thev exhiliit also a
I'eady intelligence, much more so than vou will generallv find aniont;' the ordinary
labt)uring class of whites.

Q. AVhat is the general knowledge or comprehension of the Chinese of the charac-
ter of our institutions and the nature of our government I — A. It would be very hard to
.say. It is a subject that they never speak upon at all ; and, if they are ever addressed
in regard to it, it is in the most general manner, relating to the administration of the
law or something of that kind. They recognize jierfectly that each man is e(|ual before
the law, and that there is a redress for every wrong : and thev understand, also, that if
they fail to g(>t the redress, it is from the lack of evidence, or from the lack of catching
the culprit. The\' understand that oui' courts are conducted in the most judicious
manner for the piu'ijose of ascertaining what is right and what is wrong. These ideas
I have derived from occasionallv having inter\iews with them, where thev have had
business with the courts.

The Chinese are the original inventors of printing, gun])owder, the mariner's com-
pass, and many articles that are of great importance to the world : but it is undoubtedly
true that they have made very little progress in the arts and sciences for several cen-

320 REPOFir OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

turies. This has been, by some, erroneously considered as e\iden(.'e of their inferior
mental capacity. The late Mr. Seward, a profound obser\er. in his ' Voyage around
the World,' thus .speaks of Chinese civilization :

' The Chinese, though not of the Caucasian race, have all its moral and social adapt-
bilities. Long ago they reached a higher plane of civilization than most European
nations attained until a much later period. The western nations have since risen above
this plane. The Chinese have made no advancement. Although China is far from
being a barbarous state, yet every system and institution there is inferior to its corres-
]>onding one in the west. Whether it be the abstract sciences, such as philosophy and
psychology, or whether it be the jiractical forms of natural science, astronomy, geology,
geography, natural history, and chemistry, or the concrete ideasof government and laws,
morals and manners ; whether it be in the aesthetic arts or mechanics, everytliing in
China is effete. Chinese eflucation rejects science. Chinese industries proscribe in-
vention. Chinese morals appeal not to conscience, but to convenience. Chinese archi-
tecture and navigation eschew all imjiroxements. Chinese religion is materialistic, not
even mystic, much less spiritual.

If we ask how this inferiority has come about among a people who ha\e achieved
so much in the past, and have such capacities for greater achievements in the future, we
must conclude that, owing to some error in their st)cial system, the faculty of invention
has been arrested in its exercise and impaired.

The intellectual stagnation in China is the result of their institutions. The minds
of men have been diverted from science and the arts to the endless ceremonies and
ritual of innumerable gods. It was said long ago that ' no people can rise above the
plane of the gods thev worship ' : and Chinese ci^•ilization long ago rose to the level of
their gods. For centuries the Chinese intellect has been hampered, in fact paralyzed by
her institutions, which directed the studies of her scholars to subjects from which no
benefit or progress could come, to subjects which would not enlarge the intellect, improve
the condition of the people, or add to the national development. Through the long
lapse of the middle ages the intellect of Europe was paralyzed by misdirection. Am-
bition was directed to military achievements, the knowledge of science and literature
being lightlv esteemed, and for a thousand years or more the intellect of Europe was
directed to purposes from which no good, progress or national elevation could come. It
was not until the feudal system gave way that the mind of Europe was diverted from the
old ruts into new channels, which led to the acquisition of useful knowledge, and finally,
by the Baconian philosophy, which looked to actual results, treated all learning as use-
less which did not tend to the improvement of the intellectual, social and material con-
dition of mankind. The learning of the Greeks and Romans, in many respects elevated
and refined, wasted the intellect chiefly in metaphysical discussions, which, however
beautiful in showing intellectual power, wei-e yet barren in residts, so far as the advance-
ment of science and the impro\"ement of the physical and material condition of the race
was concerned. The intellect of C4reece and Rome expended its force in great part upon
subjects which did not advance the condition of mankind ; and for more than twelve
hundred years the intellect of Europe, hampered and contracted by her institutions,
added but little to the progress of the sciences and arts. But, because of these undeni-
able historical facts, it would not do to say that the actual intellect or brain power of
men through these long periods was less than it is to-day, when the world is making
such rapid progress. It was the result of misdirection of the human mind, and stagna-
tion— the result of their institutions and condition. As the intellect of Europe burst
the cerements by which it had so long been bcamd, and embarked in a career of dis-
covery and invention, before unknown in the world's history, so it is possible that
China may yet be emancipated from her intellectual bonds, and with her powers of in-
venticm, analysis, and imagination released from the thraldom of ages, may start anew,
and again outstrip the western nations as she had done before. China was a civihzed
nation two thousand years before civilization dawned in Europe, and when the ances-
tors of the refined and haughty inhabitants of the western countries were howling
savages, worshipping rude idols and making human sacrifices. To a people with such a
history we should be charitable. The most of the Chinese in California can read and

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRA TION 321

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

write in their own language. Manj^ of them are excellent niei'chants and business men.
They are the best of bookkeepers and accountants, and conduct their business in the
most methodical way.

The evidence established the fact that Chinese labour in California is as free as any
other. They all come as free men and are their own masters absolutely. In many cases
they borrow their passage money in China, with an agreement to repay from their earn-
ings in this country, with large interest, an agreement which, to their credit be it said,
they rarely fail to perform. Nearly all of them upon their arrival become members of
one or the other of the six companies in San Francisco, for which they pay an initiation
fee, and through that they do their business, make their contracts for labour, make
remittance to China, deposit their money, and make arrangements for the return of their
bones to China, should they die. They are much given to corporations and companies,
and understand well the power and advantage of combination. They frequently work
together in asst)ciations, under the direction of a head man, who keeps their accounts
and transacts their business. The most of the Chinese who come here are young men
and boys. A few families have come, but nearly all of the men are unmarried. About
iive thousand Chinese women have come, the most of them prostitutes, imported by
procurers, who manage and dispose of them on their arrival. The better and the greater
part of the Chinese are opposed to this degrading and destructive tralEc, and have made
repeated efforts to abolish it.

At one time they succeeded in getting a number of these prostitutes on board a
ship to return them to China, liut a prominent lawyer in San Francisco procured a writ
of habeas corpus and brought them before the court, which decided that thev had a
right to remain, and discharged them. The original responsibility for their importation
lies with the Steamship Companies and masters of sailing vessels, who should have
refused to bring them. But when we consider the extent and effect of white prostitu-
tion in all our large cities, and the openness with which they ply their vocations, we can-
not charge this to the Chinese as an original offence, or one peculiar to their colour. A
vice to which they are peculiarly addicated is gambling. This they carry on extensively,
but not more so, nor so recklessly, as it was practised by the white settlers of California
when they had with them but few wives and families, and it is largely due to their
homeless and outcast condition, and to the persecutions which drive them together for
recreation and protection.

It is, like prostitution, a vice greatly to be deplored, but not so peculiarly Chinese
as to make it the basis of special legislation. The Chinese are not addicted to the use
of intoxicating liijuors ; keep no saloons or whisky shops, and a drunken Chinaman is
rarely seen in San Francisco. Their form of intemperance is in the use of opium, which
they smoke in shops set apart for that purpose. It does not produce violence or out-
break, but stupor, followed by languor, depression, and disease, and the number who
practice it is smaller than the numlier of whites who visit saloons and get drunk. A
common vice with them is perjury in the courts. The testimony shows them in manv
instances to have very imperfect conceptions of the obligations of an oath. They are in
every respect free men, and no form or semblance of slavery or serfdom exists among
them. But it is also true that their prostitutes are imported as slaves, are often
bought and sold for that purpose in San Francisco. It is, of course, a voluntary bondage
in this country, but it is submitted to by the miserable beings, who are helpless and
defenseless among strangers, and must submit to the will of their masters for the mere
matter of existence. In many cases Chinamen who buy them live with them as wives
and raise families. Labour must needs be free, and have complete protection, and be
left open to competition. Labour does not require that a price shall be fixed bv the
law, or that men who live cheaply and can work for lower wages, shall, for that reason,
be kept out of the country.

.■)4— 21

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

PART II

JAPANESE IMMIGEATION

54— 2 U-

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54 A. 1902

Toronto, March 8, 1902.
The Honourable It. W. Scott,

Secretary of State,
Ottawa.

I have the lionour to transmit herewith Part II of the Report on Chinese and
Japanese Immigration, namely, that part relating to Japanese Immigration.

Much that was said in Part I, as to the effect of Chinese immigration upon the
various industries, upon white labour, and in retarding the settlement of the country,
applies with e(iual force to the Japanese. Part II is therefore supplementarj' to Part I,
and deals principalh' with those industries in which the Japanese are employed, namely,
the fisheries and lumber industries, and employment incidental to these, as boat building
and getting out shingle bolts, cordwood cutting, ifcc.

The Province of British Columbia, the Japanese, Chinese and labour unions were
represented by eminent counsel, who requested and received permission to examine the
witnesses in respect of the matters which they represented. This of course took very
much more time than if the examination had been limited to questions asked by the
Commissioners. It was the course adopted in the important commission appointed by
the United States Congress to inquire into Chinese immigration, and was the only
course which could give satisfaction to all concerned, and offered the fullest opportunity
to educe evidence that might be thought material to the different interests. Counsel
for the province attended throughout, and counsel for the Chinese and Japanese at all
the principal places where evidence was taken, the labour unions were only represented
at Vancouver. The plan adopted of inquiring into each industry and the presence of
counsel unavoidably occupied much time, but the Commissioners pressed the work to
the limit of consent of the attending counsel, holding two sittings each day. Every
trade and calling employing oriental labour was inquired into, and most important
information for the purpose of comparison was obtained on the American side in regard
to industries developed under like conditions as obtain in British Columbia.

This whole mass of evidence — containing about seventeen or eighteen thousand
folios — to be of any value had to be arranged, sifted and passed upon. Each subject
and industry was dealt with separately, and the final conclusion reached from the con-
sideration of the whole.

The evidence quoted on each subject matter fairly represents the whole, and in a
comparatively short space renders the vast mass of evidence available for reference.

The Commissioners desire to express their appreciation of the excellent work done
bv the secretary, Mr. Francis J. Deane, gathering data, in bringing the subject of the

32.3

326 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Commission prominently before all parties interested before the formal sittings of the
Commission, thus giving the fullest opportunity for the expression of opinion and pre-
sentation of facts by all parties interested, and during the sittings of the Commission in
arranging for the different interests to present their views and procuring the attendance
of witnesses, and in every way facilitating the work of the Commission ; so that absolu-
tely no time was lost in waiting for witnesses or otherwise.

The Commissioners also desire to express satisfaction for the efficient work done by
Mr. Alexander Crawford, stenographer to the Commission, in taking the evidence. His
work was much more arduous than court work, because it was continuous and the hours
longer.

The argument of counsel representing the Province of British Columbia and the
Chinese will be found in the Appendix, Part I, and that of counsel representing the
Japanese in the Appendix to Part II.

The Commissioners desire to acknowledge the great assistance rendered by counsel
who represented the different interests. (See Appendix to Parts I and II for argument
of counsel.)

The importance of the inquiry, involving questions Provincial, National and Inter-
national, and relating to every natural industry in the province, pressed upon your
Commissioners the necessity of approaching the questions involved with the utmost
care, and of avoiding any conclusion that was not in their opinion abundantly supported
by the evidence. Both in taking the evidence and in the more laborious work of pre-
paring the report no more time has been occupied than was absolutely essential, com-
mensurate with the difficulty and importance of the subject matters dealt with.

R. C. CLUTE,
' Chairman.

ON CHINESE AND J A PA NESE IMMIGRA TION 327

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHAPTER I.— JAPANESE IMMIGRATION.

Prior to the year lcS96 no record was kept oi the number of Japanese who arrived
in J:!ritish Cohnnbia, and the records for 1896 are said to be imperfect.
Statement showing the number of .Japanese landed at Victoria, B.C., as follows : —

July 1, 1896, to June 30, 1897 691

July 1, 1897, to June 30, 1898 1,189

July 1, 1K98, to June .30, 1899 1,87.5

Julv 1, 1899, to June 30, 1900 9,033

July 1, 190(1, to June :^0, 1901 1,12.5

Total from July 1, 1896, to June 30, 1901 13,913

From .July 1, 1899, to April 13, 1900, there arrived at Vancouver 520 Japanese, of
whom 390 were tle.stinefl for Canada. The great influx occurred l)etween July 1, 1899,
and August 30, 1900, amounting to 11,272. The following table will show the number
of arrivals per month : —

Canadian

Ports.

Other

Ports.

Total.

.Julv

1899.

241

248
2liO
184
.519
19

298

417

934

3,020

2,(;67

1,495

125
99
146
188
212
85

181
246
• 174
1,773
1,820
494

31)0

August , . .

347
400

Octokier

Novemlier

.372
731
1(J4

.January .
February
-March.:..
April . . .

1900.

479

003

1,608

4,793

May.... .
.lune

Total, 1899-1900

4,493
1,989

10,302

6,049

16,351 •

1900.

,Tuly

1)85
285
44
Ii2
39
14

13
13
27
5
12
24

173
41
10
12
19
26

14
35
30
42

70
89

858

326

October ... ....

November

58
40

January .
February .

1901.

27
48

March

May

June

Total, 1900-1901

1901.

82
113

1,223

573

1,796

July

August . . .

()
7

13
7

86
47
90

123
90

106

99
53

September... .

Oot<iber

130

176

Total, 1901

602

658

From July, 1899, to December 31,

For Canadian ports

For other ports ....

1901-

11,581
7,224

18,805

328 REPCRT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

JAPANESE IMMKJRANTS TO PUGET SOUND.

The following statement is instructive as showing not onlj- the number of Japanese
immigrants in the Pacific boast states, but also the number that were rejected under
their inmiigration laws : —

3,631 Japanese immigrants arrived at Port Townsend, Washington State, between
July 1, 1898, and Nov. 30, 1899 ; of these, 904 were examined by United States immi-
gration officers stationed in Canada, and 2,727 were examined and passed at the port of
arrival.

The number which entered Puget Sound customs district for various -points in the
United States between December 1, 1899, and November 30, 1900, was 9,770, of whom
266 were rejected. The total number of Japanese admitted through the ports of Wash-
ington State for 29 month.?, from July 1, 1899, to November 1, 1900, was 13,401 ;
rejected as above, 266. The last United States census gives the number of Japanese in
Washington State as 5,617.

The commissioner of labour for California gives the total number of Japanese in
the state as 14,296 (by the la.st United States census it is stated to be 10,151) ; of these
over 5,000 entered (luring the last two years. From Victoria by card 348, from
Victoria by card, 1899, 274, and during 1900, up to December 1, 1,000, or a total of
1,622 ; which, added to the 904 who entered the Sound District from Canada, gives a
total of over 2,500 that entered these two states from Canada during the last two
years.

The present census shows that there are 4,759 Japanese in Canada, of whom
4,578 are in British Columbia.

There is no record to show how many Japanese ha\e returned from Canada to
Ja,pan.

JAPANESE IN THE UNITED STATES.

Of the 86,000 Japanese returned in 1900, 61,111 were enumerated in Hawaii ;
279 in Alaska, 284 in military and naval stations abroad, and 24,326 in the United
States proper, and of the latter number 23,376 were found in the western states and
territories, distributed as follows :

Arizona 281

California 10,151

Colorado 48

Idaho 1,291

Montana 2,441

Nevada 228

New Mexico 8

Oregon 2,501

Utah 417

Washington 5,617

Wyoming 393

ox CHINESE A XI) JAPAXESE IMMIGRATION 329

SaSSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The recent rajiid im-reasr uf tlie miiiilier of Japanese in the.se states and British
Colunil)ia will appear from the following :

1900.

1890.

1880.

281

10,151

3,379

2,441

228

2, .501

417 >
5.(il7
393

1,147

1,291
6

3G0

California

Colorado.

Idaho

Montana

Nf vada

Oregon

Utah

Washington

Wj ominK ...

2
■ 1

The following table gives a comparison of the number of Jajianese, with the total
population of the Pacific coast states and British Columbia :

Uritish Coluvibia.

Total population . . .
Number of Japanese

177,272
4,578

Washinulon.

Total population

Number of Japanese

1880.

1890.

75,11(1 ! 349.390
1 I 3G0

1900.

51S,103
5,617

Oregon.

Total population ... . .

176,768
2

313,767

413,536

Number of Japanese

2.501

CttUfornia.

Total population

Number of Japanese

864,»()4
86

1,208,130
1,147

1,485,053
10,151

Disproportion of Japanese Males and Females

Males, Females.

Washington
Oregon

5,432

2,405

185
96

The disproportion in Briti.sh Columbia is about the same. The exact figures are
not vet ol)tainable from the census returns.

330 RE POUT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

TAUSE OF THIS LARGE INFLUX.

Different reasons have been assigned for this large influx of Japanese into Canada
and the United States during the year 1900. The reasons given by the commissioner
of the bureau of labour statistics of California are as follows : He says, I made con-
siderable eflbrt to ascertain the reason for the abnormal increase in the number of
Japanese arrivals during the earlv part of 1900, with the result that three reasons, that
seemed in some degree plausible, were advanced, namely: —

1st. The generally advertised prosperous condition of the country, and reported de-
mand for labour, which naturally stimulates immigration.

2ud. That emigration recruiting agencies in Japan had booked a large number of
Japanese emigrants for Honolulu : that about the time they were aboard ship the bubonic
plague with its resulting quarantine, etc. appeared at that place, and stopped the send-
ing of the emigrants' there and that the agencies named, rather than surrender their
commissions, induced the emigrants in most cases to change their destination from Hono-
lulu to San Francisco, and in this connection wnll be noted that the time of the coming
of the largest numbei-s of Japanese per month was coincident with the time of the pre-
valence of the said plague in Honolulu.

.'^rd. That, taking advantage of supposed favourable conditions, emigration agencies
in Japan were extremely active in fostering the exodus of Japanese to California and
other American ports for the sake of accruing commissions.

Xow, as to the cause of the sudden decrease in the said arrivals, which became
apparent about May and June, 1900, it seems authoritatively to be stated that it has
been in a large part due to the action of the Japanese Government in restricting the
departure of its subjects for American points.

In this connection the e^■idence of Mr. Frank Burnett, of Vancouver, president of
the United Canners, Limited, is important. He says : I was in Japan last winter and
took considerable interest in the matter while I was over there. I got inti-oduction to
different individuals, and explained the situation U< them, that is the large number that
came in here last year, and that a great deal of feeling was being created against the
Japanese on that account. They seemed to realize the importance of preventing any
great immigration of their people here or of reducing the present number that is allowed
by law to come from each district. There has Ijeen a reduction imposed. That had
been imposed pritu- to my ■s'isit. They seemed willing to furtlier restrict and seemed
anxious to maintain friendly relations w4th us.

Q. Can you explain why it was such a large number of them came here at one
time ? — A. It was about the time 1 was going over there, and I got the credit for bring-
ing them over ; about that time the Philippine and the Hawaiian Islands had both come
under American sovereignty : and on that account those two countries that hitherto re-
ceived large numbers of Japanese immigrants were closed from any further immigration
from Japan, and for that reason the tide of immigration was changed to this country.

Q. How could they accomplish that ; there is no law in the United States against
Japanese immigration ? — A. They use their Alien Act to stop them : and there is no
doubt that was the cause of so many Japanese commg here last year, and not because
I happened to be in Japan.

Alexander R. Milne, C.B., Collector of Customs at Victoria, said : The Japanese
ha^e decreased in number since August last. There was some restriction placed on the
transportation from Japan, I believe. That was the chief cause. I believe the Japanese
Government imposed some restrictions on their people lea\ing the country, and that
that was the chief cause of the falling off' in the number of Japanese coming here.
The Japanese now have a rule by which they only permit a certain number to leave
Japan : I think it is 47 a month they will give a permit to.

HOW JAPANESE IMMIGRATION IS PROMOTED.

In Xovemljer, 1898, a Commissioner was sent by the United States Government to
Japan for the purpose of investigating the subject of Japanese immigration into the

OJV CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 331

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

United States. (8ee A]ipendix.) He points out that ' Under the Japanese law every
subject is registered in his native prefecture, which lie may not lea\'e without permission
of the authorities and from which he, or .she, must obtain their jjassport, when they
desire to emigrate. Ina.smuch as the Government claims the perpetual allegiance ni its
subject, it grant.s a passport, limited to three years, and I was informed that a large
part of the emigrants who thus go abroad return to their native land sooner or later,
and consequently few Japanese, and indeed I may say none, come to the United States
with a view to remaining or making homes, the theory of their emigration system being
for the pronujtion of emigration as an educational process and money-making investment
for a temporary period, the profits of which accrue jointly to the promoter and to the
emigrant, the Japanese Empire being the reciijient of what may be described as the
unearned increment through its peojjle that thus go abroad, through their ct)ntact with
more enlightened people, and by leason of the accumulated cajntal, which they return
to their native land. It is through the tenacious allegiance which the subjects of Japan
vield to their sovereign that the jiromotion of emigration becomes a reasonably safe
business.' _^ .

It further appears from this repwt that there are twelve companies organized to '
promote emigration, vv-ith a total capital of .5-58,999 yen (a yen, about 50 cents gold value).
Six of these companies have agents in the United States and Canada. They have offices at ' ^
all important emigration centres. At Tokyo they have an assopiation of emigration
companies, which is in the nature of an Emigration Board of Trade. It is said that the
offices of these companies are well equipped for business purposes ; that the managers
and stockholders are among the leading business men and politicians of Japan. The
emigration companies all advertise more or less in the newspapers for contract labouTj^
designating them to go to Hawaii, Peru and Mexico, and they advertise through circu-
lars, pamphlets and bv means oi tra\elling solicitors for emigrants going to the United
States.

It is further stated that ' the documentary evidence herein presented as a whole
shows that the business is vigorously and aggressively prosecuted through personal
solicitations of agents, whose earnings depend on their zeal and success. The emigra-
tion companies are all provided with blanks for obtaining passports. Agents of the
steamship companies and emigration companies do not occupy offices together ; thej' are
nevertheless ^ery closely connected through the brokers and hotel keepers, and it is hard
to draw a line of separation of interest. Many of the hotel keepers are emigration
brokers and nearly all brokers are intimately connected with the emigrati<.)n companies ;
while it is safe to assert that if tlie steamship companies were to establish and maintain
a fixed rate for steei'age passage, it would cut the profits of the br'okers, hotel keepers,
and emigratiim companies 50 per cent, and it seems to me conclusive that if it were not
for the existence of the emigrati<.)n companies and these agencies for the collection of
emigrants to go abroad, the profits of the steamship companies would be materially
reduced. By their present methods the steamship companies, whether intentionally or
otherwise, clearly ofi'er inducements foi' the emigration companies to solicit the emigrants,
both being large capitalized enterprises that have a mutual interest, which is inseparable,
as long as they are allowed to exist side by side, the one to obtain fees fr-om emigrants
and the other to receive steerage passage.

' Great stress was laid by Japanese officials upon the fact that the Japanese govern-
ment requires every emigrant to provide sureties to provide for his return to the
country in case of need, before granting a passport. I talked with many men of long
experience in Japan and found but one universal opinion, that not ten per cent of the
emigrants lea\ ing that countrv could or would go unless they had assistance or were
helped or assisted by some person or influence. Aside fi'om the facts herein presented
the coolie class could find no proper sureties, such as are required by the government,
unless some arrangement was provided by responsible parties for looking after this class
of emigration after they land in the United States. '

The commissioner further states that ' the great mass of emigrants, say 95 per cent
of the whole, are coolie labourers and small farmers who class as coolies.'

332 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

He places the population of Japan at forty-three millions, with a density of 293 to
the square mile, and says : The great mass of the people live by farming, which includes
silk raising and fishing, at which occupatit)n they earn from 100 to 150 yens per annum,
which suffices to support a family of about four — a man, a wife, and two or three
children. In large families the mother and other children work. The agricultural
implements used are of the most primitive charactei", and the allotment of lanfl to the
family or indi\ idual is in most cases less than an acre. There are no division fences,
each little tract being divided from its neighbour by a little ridge of dirt from 1^ to 3
feet wide. Factory emploj-ees earn from 15 to 20 sen per day. Farm labourers earn
from 15 to 30 sen per day, depending upon locality. The labour which Japan sends
abroad is pauper labour. My reasons for thus classing it are that the over-pt)pulaticni
of Japan has reduced the value of labour below a decent living point, measured by
civilized standard, and further that this competition is increasing in such force that it
seems unreasonable to assume the probability of the value of labour approximating the
cost of future products aiid living.

The agricultural interests of Japan are practically incapable of expansion, which
forces all surplus labour into the employment of various manufactures and into fishing.
Japan's market for manufactures is, and must for fifty years remain, very limited, if we
except silk, pottery, curios, ivrc, and even the demand for these native products must
find a limit.

' The question naturally occurs, how do they raise sufficient money to emigrate 1

As I intmiated in my report of the 24th ultimo, the emigration companies in certain
instances furnish them money, sending a banto along with the emigrants to look after
their interests. I found, by inquiring among the people, that it requires from five to ten
vears for a Japanese farmer to save 200 yen. Some undoubtedly do this, but the
majority secure money by selling their holdings and by borrowing from the emigration
companies, friends and relatives, upon whom they are more or less dependent, going their
security. The laws are very strict in Japan concerning the collection of debts. There
are no exemptions, and hence in view of the fact that every emigrant to the United
States is able to send money home, this is a safe business. Besides, the pickings of the
emigration companies enable them to get back part of the funds loaned the emigrant
before he sailed. I cannot, of course, prove this state of facts but all the circumstances
occur in supporting this view. (For complete statement of wages paid in Japan see
Appendix. )

In confirmation of tlie statement above quoted, ' that the Japanese Government
requires every emigrant to provide sureties for his return in case of need before granting
a passport,' may be quoted the following evidence referred to in the report of the Bureau
of Labour statistics for the State of California for the year 1900, from the evidence of a
Japanese who conducts an employment agency in San Francisco :

Q. Does your government require all Japanese coming to this country to go back ?
Don't your papers require you to go back in three or four j-eais, or get leave to stay
longer ? — A. Yes, sir, any that come here want to get back as quick as possible.

Q. You think that the plague in Honolulu made more Japanese come here ? — A.
Y^es, I think that is the reason.

Q. ^Vhy is it ? — A. The reason is that a great many labourers have been going to '
Honolulu, and an order has been issued that no more labourers can go there until the
sickness at that place dies out. Some Japanese emigration societies promised to send
the labourers to Honolulu, and when they could not be sent there they were sent here
instead. The emigration societies got a commission from each boy, and do not like to
pay it back.

Q. How nuuii commission ? — A. .S5.

Q. For how long is your passport issued i — A. I would have to ask the consul to
renew it.

Q. Does not your government command you to come back, or have your passport
renewed ? — A. They sometimes stay without getting new passports. In my passport

Oy CHINESE AXD JAPAXEUE IMMIGRA Tloy 333

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

there is no time stated; c-aine as a student. They are nioi'c strict with labourtTs. Wlien
they ,i;o back they are punished.

The Commissioner of Laljour for tlie State of Wasliinfi;ton, in his repoit dated
January 7, 1900, referring to this class of immigration, .says :

Asiatic immigration to the United States has assumed such proportions, and the
certainty of its constant increase, unless something is done to stop it, is so self-evident,
that what to do to prevent this subtle ruinous conquest of our American working men
and women upon the Pacific coast has now become a question of such importance tliat
this report would not be fulfilling its purpose did it not present the matter to vou for
vour consideration

So long as this class of immigration was limited to the number who, of their own
volition and means, came to our shores, their presence could not be said to be a jniblic
menace, but when they began coming by the shipload, with not a woman or child
accompanying them, the thoughtful, patriotic American had to look for other reasons
than those which prompt the white man to leave his native land in Europe and come
among us

The Asiatic does not come here to become an American ; 1 know this from personal
inquiry. According to the strictest meaning of the term, he is here as an exploiter ;
neither does liis presence here, when measured by the attending consequence to our own
people, constitute an equal exchange for that which he receives

Certain legal persons which the American people have created ssty they must have
these Japanese in order to carry on their business. I admit that if a few of them are
allowed to equip themselves with this class of help the others must follow suit or suffer
from an unetpial competition, hence in order to be fair and treat all alike we must either
allow all to have them or deny the privilege to each. If we allow all to have them it
means the displacement of at least five million American working men and women to
make room for enough Japanese to do their work. If we allow them proportionate
wages to that of Americans, their saving power being so much greater on account of
living expenses, this number of alien wage-earners would form a constant and dangerous
drain upon our gold supply ; while their presence as employees in our industries will
tend to a genei-al reduction of wages, which will not stop until an equilibrium is reached
between the wages paid in Japan and the United States, plus the cost of coming and
going from one country to the other. Long before this condition is reached there will
be tr(juble between the two races which will undo all that has been done in the work of
establishing friendly relations in trade and commerce between the respective govern-
ments of the two races

When questioned as to their purpose in coming here the answer was ' to work five
years and then return to Japan and buy a ton (one-fourth of an acre) of land and
settle down.' Discerning that most of them wei'e boys and young men I made jiarti-
cular inquiry about the amount of money they harl earned in their lifetime, and did not
find one who, if he had saved every yen that he had earned, couki have had enough to buy
liis suit of blue and pay his fare on the vessel, to say nothing of ha\ing the •'$30 to flash
before the inspector in order to be allowed to land. When questioned as to how they
obtained the money they all told the same story of how their father, or some other rela-
tive, had mortgaged their little home in Japan to raise the money. Their first earnings
• going to pay off the mortgage ; after that save until they had enough to go back to
Japan. From these little men I learned that the craze to get to the United States to
earn and save a competency is as widespread and intense throughout Japan as is the
desire of Americans to obtain a bonanza gold placer claim in Alaska. Yet they no more
intend to spend their lives here than do our jieople intend to live and die in Alaska, and
on these grounds I doubt very much if they are entitled to be classed as immigrants;
however, they were able to comply with every requirement and must be allowed to
come in.

Of those who come in via British Columbia I am convinced that a large majority
are contract labour slaves. Of the wisdom or good policy of educating Japanese students
in this country to fit them to work both ends of a contract labour bureau by which they
barter in the flesh and blood of their fellow Japanese I am in serious doubt.

334

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

WAr.ES PAID IX JAPAN.

The following rate of wages paid in Japan is quoted from the Report of the United

• States Commissioner above referred to : —

^ ,. August, 1897.

Occcupation. ci

^ Sen.

Carpenters 60

Sawyers 70

Cabinet-makers 70

Shoemakers, — first class 120

second class 80

third class 50

Tailors, — Japanese style 40

Foreign style, — first class 150

second class 100

third class 80

Blacksmiths 80

Ship carpenters, — first class 80

second class 70

third class 60

Gardeners 50

Coolies 40

(In estimating the wages as given above it must be borne in mind that it is given
in Japanese. A sen is a tenth part of a yen, and a yen is equal to about 50 cents of
our nKJiiey.)

The following table from the report of the California Bureau of Labour Statistics
gives the wages paid in Japan in 1897. It is said that wages in Japan had greatly
increased within the several years prior to this date.

Wages in Japan, 1897 — (In Canadian Money.)

Occupations.

Day.

Month.

Black.^mtths

Brickmakers

Cari>enters

Fishermen .... .

Gardeners

Joiners .

Labourers

Labourers, agricultural (male)...
Labourers, agricultural (female).

Sawyers

Servants, domestic

Servants

Ship carpentei>i

Shoemakers

Shoemakers, Japanese shoes

Stone-cutters.,

Tailors. European clothing. .

Tailors, Japanese clothing

Wheelwrights

$ cts.

0 24

0 28

0 21i

0 ]9i

0 23J

0 224

. 0 17'

0 15

0 9i

0 25

0 25
0 23
0 19
0 27*
0 29
0 184
0 20j

1 41
0 794

(For full list see Appendi.x.)
From the above list it will be noticed that the wages of labourers is 17 cents, and
farm labourers, 15 cents, a day. Dt)mestic servants, •'?1.41 per month, servants, 79i
cents a month, fishermen, 19i cents a day. These are the pi'incipal classes wlio come
to Canada.

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE lAfMIGRATION 335

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Gin Kangii, eiiiployed on the ' Enipross of China,' was. born in Ja[)an, referring to
the Japanese wlio came over on the ' Empress of China,' says : They come fi'oin tlie
southern part of Japan, beyond Kobe. I think most of tlie people are iish(>rmen over
tliere. Those who work in the woods here are in Japan, farmers. Farm hibourers in
Japan are \ery cheap. I cannot tell you for sure, but I think $5 or $6 a year of your
money, and supply them with food, clotliing and houses to live in. On many of the
farms they work on shares, one-fourth or one-sixth of the produce for working it. I
think somebody must put the money up for them to come here, — the emigration office.

.S. Fuseya, a Japanese tailor, Victoria, stated that : In Japan tailors are paid from
20 to 30 yen a month, that will be about 610 or S15 a month here. Living is very
cheap in Japan. It costs a common labourer to live in Japan about 7 yen a month.
It costs here about three times what it costs there. The wages of a common labt)urer
is about 15 or 20 cents Canadian money, and it costs him about 7i cents a day for his
living.

THE IMMIGRANT .\T HOME.

Alfred Dyer, journalist, who traselled through China and Jajian for four yeai-s in
connection with his profession, said : Referring to Japanese restriction I may say that
an European cannot travel in Japan outside the treaty ports without a passport. For
instance you cannot travel from Kobe to Hong Kong without producing your passport
before you can secure your railway ticket. That regulation was enforced in 1895. It
does not matter what your business is. The Japanese are verj' willing to learn. They
do not restrict an Englishman as much as one would think, and they employ a great
many outsiders. It is a matter of common knowledge that all the cashiers of the
principal firms througliout the towns are Chinamen. The Chinese bear such a reputation
for uprightness in money matters, which as far as I know is most thoroughly deserved,
that they are employed in nearly all the business houses and banks in .Japan. There
the business man places his reputation for honesty and uprightness far abo\e anything
else. In business matters I would trust a Chinaman as much as I would a white man.
The Japanese do the same where they would not trust their own people.

A Japanese village belonging to the same class as the Chinese would be nattier and
prettier. They are not as substantial, but they are cleaner, nattier, flimsier and pret-
tier. They have more i-ooms and are built of cheaper material, and they can afford to
have more rooms. When they get into other situations they have not much to lose if
they have to leave a house. I think a Japanese house is distinguished by tlie want of
furniture. The Japanese sleep on mats. The Chinese go in more for beds.

I much prefer the Chinese to the Jajianese. They are stricth- honest, and as to
virtue they are very much better.

THEIR HOMES.

The Rev. Dr. Wiley, one of the bishops of the Methodist Episcopal Church in the
United States, who published a record of his observations in China and Japan in 1879,
says : Among the masses of the people their wants are few and easily supplied.
Their homes are very simple, and their furniture very limited and cheap, and their
clothing scantand inexpensive. The house is built of wood, light and airy, and generally
only one storey high. They are partitioned into rooms, not by permanent walls, but by
sliding frames oi- folding screens, so that they can alter almost at will the size and shape
of the rooms. The floors are covered with mats made of straw and rushes, and several
inches thick, so that they serve at once for seats, after the peculiar fashion in which the
Japanese sit, and foi- beds — a Japanese simply folding himself in his outer coat, and
stretching himself on the matted floi_)r, resting his head on a peculiarly shaped pillow.
The windt)w frames are all moveable, filled with oiled paper instead of glass. The furni-
ture of the house is on the same simple plan. A Japanese, no matter what his rank or
wealth, has but little furniture. The room looks always bare and empty. A few shelves
hold some cups and saucers, and there are several small trays and stands. There are no

336 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

chairs, and the tables are low, small and plain. As to the kitchen, one or two small
moveable stoves, a few pans of metal, and some brooms are all that are needed. Every-
where, however, you will admire the cleanliness observed in these homes.

Marriage is universal. The great problem which disturbs so many in western
countries, how to keep a wife and home, being unknown here. Their future house is
taken, containing three or four little rooms, in which clean mats are put. Each then
brings to the housekeeping a cotton stuffed quilt, and a box of wearing apparel for their
own personal use, a pan to cook the rice, a half dozen large cups and trays to eat off, a
large tub to bathe and wash in, and the great problem of home and family is solved.

A ■\\itness stated that an ordinary Japanese house would cost about S20, built of
wood and thatched. Another witness stated that the Japanese village is flimsier than
the Chinese : they are more artistic, cleanlier, nattier and have more room.

UPON ARRIVAL IX BRITISH COLUMBIA.

Y Dr. Alfred T. Watt, superintendent of quarantine for British Columbia, said : The

Japanese go back a great many of them and stay over the winter. They come over here

^■(y and make enough money to take them back to Japan, and keep them comfortable until

^ the next season. I believe they have been brought over here for $7 a head. It is more

/^ than that now. Tramp steamers brought over very large numbers. That is the lowest

y^ price. About $30, I think, is the usual price. They do not bring their families. Two

or three Japanese in every hundred bring their wives here. The emigration is induced

by companies. They furnish them, sometimes, with European clothes. When they come

here the Japanese clothing is cast off'.

^^ — Q. Do you mean that those Japanese who come here are brought here by any

companies on this side who contract to bring them over and furnish their labour to

people 1 — A. I do not believe that.

Q. What you mean is that certain persons in Japan make it their business to
furnish intending emigrants with information, with the necessary outfit of European
clothing, and all that sort of thing ? — A. Yes.

Q. When the individual comes here he is on his o-mi hook 1 — A. He is looked after
by the agents of the companies here who induced him to emigrate.

Q. You do not consider he is forced in any way ? — A. No.

Q. You do not consider that disadvantageous to this country ? — A. No

When they are indoors they very often wear Japanese costumes. I believe they
purchase their clothing from ordinary stores. They bring an outfit with tliem to last
them for some time, then they go to the ready made clothing stores. I have seen them
at meals, eating rice, fish and some kind of vegetables. They like to have their dried
fish and salted fish that come from Japan, and with their own fish they like to have
their own rice and their own preserves. I know that a great quantity of these food
stuffs is brought from Japan. I am in a position to say a large quantity of food stuff's
come over for the consumption of the Japanese, and I do believe the Japanese purchase
more from Europeans than the Chinese do. When they come through by the quarantine
station we have trouble in getting them to use the water closets. The Japanese I think
understand matters relating to sanitation in their own country. They deal very vigo-
rously with any epidemic disease. The Japanese understand that. They adopt vacci-
nation against smallpox. The ones that came last year were mostly from the farming
class. There were a certain number of fishermen as well. They wear their own cloth-
ing on the vessel. They have a full suit of European clothing they put on as soon as they
arrive here in almost eveiy case. They nearly all liave a few dollars, up to .S-tO. Of
course, of the Japanese who pass through the quarantine, a great many of them are
bound for American ports, and all those have 630 in gold with them ; that is to meet the re-
quirements of the American law. I do not know whether it is their own money or
whether it has been supplied to them. They all have the Japanese kemeno or gown, a
quilt or blanket and a suit of European clothes. They are nearly all young men from
16 to 30.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 337

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Q. Did yim ascertain whctlier they come to settle permanently in the country or
with a view to returning to their own country at an early date? — A. AVell, thev come
over lieav expecting to get work and expecting to make a competence in a short time.
In the course of last year the Japanese were \eiy much decei\ed by the emigration
companies. These companies represented to them that they would soon make money
here in working on railways and so on. I think they have been induced to sell what
property they have and in\'est in tickets to come here. I think they pay their own waj"^.
I consider they are apparently more like our own people. They dress in European
clothing, but you find in the boarding houses where they live — there are three or four
Japanese boarding houses in the city — there they will put on the Japanese costume and
sitting around in their own houses. They put on .Japanese costume and eat food pre-
pared in nnicli the same way as it is prepared in Japan. They live on rice and fish
principally. Large numbei's live in one house. They li\e and sleep very much the
same here as in their own country. The Jajianese do not crowd together in the same
sense as the Chinese are crowded. They do not all live in the same quarter. The
Japanese are congregated in certain houses, large boarding houses, a large number
sleeping in one room : I think scarcely a.s crowded as the Chinese. Of course the
Japanese in Victoria is more of a floating population ; they come and go away again.
They go out to farms and canneries and wherever they can get work in good weather
and come back here in the winter tinie. The Japanese work for less than you would
think of ofFering to a white man. I think their wages are lower than the Chinese ; at
least they were this last winter, because great numbers of Japanese came here and there
was little or no work for them. That was attributable to misrepresentations made by
emigration agents. Few Japanese have arrived since last August or September (that
would be 1900). At that time the Japanese Government stopped the issue of passports
to Japanese emigrants.

William Harrington Ellis, Pro\-incial Innnigration Officer for Vancouver Island,
said : As immigration (jffieer I have been enforcing the Provincial Immigration Act,
generally termed the Natal Act. This Act does not afiect the Chinese, as their enti-y
into Canada is provided for by the Dominif)n Immigration Act. Japanese immigration
has practically ceased since the beginning of the year ; have only issued eight certificates
of entry during that period, and several of these were issued to naturalized British
subjects. Have refused admission to three Japanese who were depoi-ted by the steam-
ship carrying them here. Am given to understand the Japanese Government are not
issuing passports to subjects desiring to enter Canada. .Japanese passengers destined
for Puget Sound ports are still present on Oriental liners. Coasting and Trans-Pacific
steameis will not book Japanese from a foreign port to British Columbia unless they
have first proved their ability to comply with the terms of the Act.

I consider Japanese cleanly in habits, industrious anfl intelligent. I believe them
more dangerous competitors in the business of the country than the Chinese. They
iKlopt European dress and food and conform as much as possible to the customs of the
countiy. As a race they believe they are capable of taking an equal place among the
civilizeil nations of the world. They are more aggressive than the Chinese, and if per-
mitted to etiter this country without restriction, would in the course of time become a
considerable portion of our business and working community, and would undoubtedly
insist upon Incoming enfranchised. I do not consider them desirable as citizens from
the fact that they do not or cannot assimilate with the white races. At present they,
like the Chinese, occupy a special place in the community. They furnish lalx)ur ata
price with which the white labourer cannot compete. They do not support families, and
trade almost altogether among themselves. They aremeagi'e contributoi-s to the general
w(>lfaiv and a positive detriment to the whiti' labourer. Their advantage is altofether
from the standpoint of capital.

I am given to understand many Japanese immigrants come to Victoria and Van-
cou\er as l>eing convenient points from which to enter into the United States. If
refused entry to that cciuntry they will return to this, whereas if they sail direct from
Japan and were refused entry they would be returned to Japan.
."i4— L'-J

338 • REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The Great Northern, Northern Pacific and Southern Pacific Railway s\stenis
employ Japanese in large numbers as track repairers, the Great Northeiu employing
alone nearly 4,000. The Oriental labourer cannot be replaced by restriction or head
tax. An acceptable immigrant must be bi'ought in, and a practical and earnest effort
is necessary to bring him. The coast of the Eastein Slaritime Provinces and those of
Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland, furnish fields from wliich to dra%v a desirable
immigration. The peoples of these countries are engaged in callings similar to those
which prevail on the British Columbia coasts. To bring them in in sufficient numbers
it would be necessary to advance fares and expenses and provide locations for them
before arrival. This would entail a large expenditure, but there is an excellent source
from which the necessary funds can be secured, namely, the head tax imposed on
Chinese. It would be but reasonable for the Federal and Provincial Governments to
devote the large amount received from the head tax to securing an element which would
in time replace the Oriental in British Columbia. As this province is the only sufferer
in the competition of this undesirable immigration, it would be but common justice to
expend the money received from such source in providing means for not only staying the
tide of Oriental immigration, but in replacing that class already here. I consider that
laws preventing their employment in mining and other industries only allays the evil as
far as those special branches of labour are concerned.

Q. The Provincial Act of 1900, assuming that that is held to be constitutional,
would that be sufficient check on the Japanese ? — A. Yes, if it were constitutional anrl

was acted on I tliink the Japanese question is not so acute here, in a

sense, as the Chinese question. I do not think the presence of the Chinese and Japanese
tended to drive white people from here, or from settling here. I am speaking of what
might be termed the nav\-y class. That class did not show a desire to remain in the
country as settlers ; they simply went off to where they could secure the same class of
labour. The Japanese are still coming in on the steamers, not in great numbers, but
from 12 to 2-5 on a steamer. I do not think any large number of Japanese enter
without the test being applied. The only wa^' it is possible for the Japanese to enter
the province without the officers being acquainted with the fact is by smuggling them
from American ports and landing them at the cordwood camps. Officials have been
appointed at all places of entry into the province.

Clive Phillips WoUey, formerly Executive Sanitary Officer for the Province :

Q. Ha\"e you had any experience so as to enable you to speak of the Japanese ? —
A. I have had very little. I am very much prejudiced in fa%"our of the Japanese. I do
not want him, but I think it better to have him than the Chinese, if we have to have
either of them.

Q. For what reason ? — A. For the reason he seems to be willing to live more or
less the white mans life. He will live as a white man does, and he is cleaner in hi.s
surroundings. He is more like our own people in assimilating to our manners and
customs and modes of living, and he is more cultivated, and he is more manly and gen-
tlemanly. With reference to the Japanese, where I was in mining camps and elsewhere
there were not any Japanese, therefore I cannot speak of them from personal contact
with them in their work, but I have seen the Japanese working on farms and building
boats on the Fraser river. I have seen them on the Island farms, between tliis and
Vancouver. I ha\e also seen them on the farms around Duncan. Two Japanese will
do as much work as one white man if you watch them enough. They are harmless little
chaps.

Q. What do you say as to their habits of cleanliness i Are they Ijetter than the
Chinese in that regard ? — A. I only know this, that around the liouse, as farm servants
they are as cleanlj^ as other farm servants. I have never observed their mode of living
in cities. I only speak as to that in regard to their working on farms.

Q. You say you prefer the Japanese to the Chinese ; why ? — A. I would rather
have him because he buys our produce, and dresses like ourselves, and seems to be
willing to adopt our habits and customs.

Q. Do you consider the Japanese as great a competitor, dangerous as a competitor ?
A.. Yes, he is a more dangerous competitor with the white man. He adapts himself

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 339

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

more easily t« our civilization than the Chinese. The Chinese will do tlie lowest kind
of labour and stick to it ; the Japanese will get higher if he can, and he has brain
enough to rise into any of the mechanical pursuits.

James Wilson, Sanitary Inspectoi' of the City of Victoria, said : With reference to
sanitation, I do not think there is much difference between the Japanese and Chinese.
I think the\- do a good deal more harm than the Chinese. They will work cheaper than
the Chinese, and they get into the white man's ways quicker. They are clean, so far. I
had to take them to Court several times to get them to understand and carry out the
sanitary laws. They adopt the dress of the white man and their hair is cut different to
the Chinese. There is not a Japanese town the same as Chinatown. There are only
three or four Japanese boarding houses now and some few in them. There were nine-
teen or twenty Japanese boardinghouseslast summer. I have seen forty-five of them in one
room in one night. "We had to take them to Court and fine them for breaking the
health by-law. Breaches of the by-law are not frequent. I have no trouble since I took
four different parties into Court. They get to understand the law. The food they use
looks some- thing like the Chinese, — pretty much the same. A good deal of that comes
from Japan. ^ Onlv a few of their women come out.

They will be more ready to take up the habits of the country than the Chinese.
They keep the price of labour down more than the Chinese. A few of them take to
individual kousekeeping. In house furnishings they generally have mattresses and a few
chairs. They are more inclineil to European habits than the Chinese. In the boarding
house they use straw mattresses. In one boarding house I found forty straw mattresses.

There is more danger of the Japanese driving out the white man in the labour mar-
ket than the Chinese. They seem to pick up the way to do the work quicker, and thev
will tackle anything. They tackle everything, housework and farm work. Thev work
for !?.5, .§6, and -SIO a month. I favour their exclusion.

There is one laundry house on Fox Street. They keep all kinds of stores. Several
of them are tailors, and they have two or three stores for curios and the like, and there
is a grocery store. They are not in the habit of keeping excrement and using it like
the Chinese. Take the ordinary Japanese and his house is furnished pretty near the
same as that of a common white man.. They have a desire to become Europeanized or
Americanized in their method of living. The convictions were for temporary overcrowd-
ing, and when the convictions ceased the overcrowding ceased.

Dr. Roderick Eraser, Medical Health Officer for the Citv of A^ictoria, referring to
the Japanese savs :

Q. With reference to the Japanese do they congregate in any particular part of the
city \ — A. No, they live in any part of the citv. They wear Eurojiean dress. Thev
occupy ordinary hou.ses. I do not think they adopt the manners and habits and customs
of our own people in the matter of dress. I do not think they adopt our food, and the
labouring Japanese dt)es not sleep on the same kind of bed ; they use a hard bed like the
Chinese with a wooden pillow. They live close together. They are equally dirty with
the Chinese, the lower class of Japanese is if anything more dirty than the Chinese. In
enforcing the sanitary b3'-laws among the Japanese I have no more difficulty than with
the Chinese. For instance, if a house is rented by Japanese in some respectable part of
the city it is soon turned into a Japanese boarding house and we very soon have com-
plaints. They are no better than the Chinese lower class. They employ white physi-
cians exclusively and patronize our hospitals vei-y generally. They make very good
patients, and they are ready to submit to any sort of surgical or medical treatment. I
find that even the humblest Japanese labourer puts in all his spare time in tiTing to
learn to speak and read English.

Dr. I. M. McLean, Chief Health Officer for the city of Vancouver, said : I do not
regard the presence of the Japanese coolies as a menace to public health to the same
extent as the Chinese. Typlioid fever is not as common among the Chinese as among
the Japanese. The Japanese are a cleanly people so far as ordinary bathing is concerned.
They soon get into the way of improvement.

The above fairly indicates the nature of all of the evidence taken as to the condition
of the immigrant upon his arri\"al, his habits, modes of life, and compliance with sani-
tarv laws. -

54— 22i

340 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

CHAPTER II.— THE FISHERIE.S AND BOAT BUILDING.

Part I. — The Fisheries.

It is ill conueetion with the fisheries that the presence of the Japanese lias been
most keenly felt as competitors with the whites. The following statement shows the
total number of licenses issued in British Columbia during the last five years, and to
what extent the Japanese have encroached upon this business.

Totiil iiiitnher of Licenses in British Columbia.

Year. Total. To Japanese.

189(i ;?,533 452

1897 4,500 787

1898 4,435 768

1899 4,197 930

1900 4,89:^ 1,892

1901 4,722 1,958

ARE THERE TOO MANY FISHERMEN ON THE ERASER RIVER?

1st. Opinion of Canners. — Conden.sed statement. (For fuller statement of cauners
.see Canning Industry, Part I, Chap. XV.)

Henry O. Bell-Irving, the manager of the British CV)lumbia Packing Companv,
that have six canneries on the Fraser, two on the Skeena, one on Rivers Inlet, one in
Alaska and one on the Sound, and employ from 1,000 to 1,200 men on the Fraser River,
says : I think the river is overcrowded ; there are too many fishermen and too many
canneries just now. I think it would make it more profitable to the packer if there were
few-er canneries and fewer fishermen. There were larger profits made in the past than
are made now. A certain number will have to drop out. I think the fisheries have
prettv nearly reached their maximum. The number of canneries increased, and the
number of licenses for each had to be reduced, and this laised a friction, and the govern-
ment four or five years ago said, we will grant licenses to everyone who will pay for
them. The number of boats is far in excess of what it ought to be, but owing to the
competition of canners each increases the number of boats, and if one does the other has
to. or he does not get his share of the fish.

The Japanese as fishermen are not \-ery reliable, liut I think they will favourably
compare with the whites, because they work hard when the fish are scarce.

I have always held that a man should only look to fishing as a means of increasing
his comfort, and enable him to clear a nice claim for himself on tlie banks of the ri\er,
but man}' of them look upon it as their right to make enough out of the fishing to keep
them the rest of the year. Fishermen could farm the most of the year, and the fishing
woulfl better enaUe them to get along. That would have to be done by slow growth.
I think if two-thirds the number of fishermen were employed on the river that ha^■e
been for the last few years, it would be enough. If it could be accomplished it would
be desirable for all parties. If the number of whites and Indians at present empk)yed
all came they would fill the bill, and the Japanese could be dispensed with. Combine
this with a reduction of the cannei'ies to half, and it would bring about a better con-
dition of attairs on the river.

Frank Burnett, president of the United Canners, Limited, says : I think there are
not enough whites and Indians to do the fishing on the Fraser. There are not too many
nets and boats. I think there are enough Japanese here now. I do not think there
a^-e too many canneries ; I do not think there are too many fishermen. Every four

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 341

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

years we have a good run. I belie\e in free trade. It is a case of the survival of tlie
fittest.

I would not impose the same restriction on the Japanese as on the Chinese, I think,
because they assimilate more easily and are less undesirable people, i think I would
impose a restriction upon them ; how much is hard to say, it should be settled between
the Governments, as far as the Japanese are concerned.

When we buy fish from white fishermen we buy from them individually, but when
we buy from Japanese fishermen we buy through Japanese bosses. We generally
advance a little to them in the beginning of the season, and they are morally bound to
sell us their fish. At the beginning of the season the Japanese boss will come in and
say he has so many boats, and on the strength of that we will advance him so much,
principally in the way of supplies. We gi\'e orders on stores, and give very little money.
It is (litticult to get at whether or not the Japanese boss may own the boats himself and
hire the men. M'e simply let the contract to the boss. We let our own boats out on
shares. We have about a hundred boats in the three canneries. The Japanese have
built quite a few of our boats. We do not build boats for the sake of hii'ing Japanese.
We hire them to either Japanese or whites. We sometimes sell the boats to the fisher-
men. Sometimes the Japanese builder supplies fishermen. We have about three
hundred Japanese boats. That means six hundred Japanese for two canneries. In one
cannery we have not Japanese at all. We have twenty or thirty white men in these
two canneries ; in the other all white men and Indians. We would rather hire white
men, that is outside of sentiment altogether, and for this reason, — each contract made
with a white man is for himself individually. If he goes back on his contract we only
lose a small amount, whereas if a Japanese boss goes back on his contract it means the
loss of several th<.)usand dollars to us.

Charles F. Todd, of Victoria, engaged in the wholesale grocery and salmon canning
business, said : Increased canneries demanded increased number of fishermen. I don't
know of any white fishermen out of emplonnent by reason of the presence of Japanese.
There are not enough white men to keep the canneries running without the Japanese.
Many of them do nothing after the season is over. In winter there is a super-abundance
of labour. ' Thei'e are too many in the canning business. If the Chinese Were not here
we would not have had s» many in the business. If we could not ha\-e Japanese we
would be at a great disadvantage.

Alexander Ewen, of New Westminstei-, who has resided in British Columbia for
thirty-six years, and been engaged in the cannery business since 1870, says: White
men are not so ansious to fish now. There are not half enough boats for the full
capacity of the canneries. The number of fish caught and put on the market is not
decreasing, but the cost is increased, antl the number of fish caught by each fisherhian
has decreased. The white men cannot make the money they did formerly. There was
a limit on the Fraser once to five hundred boats to ten or twelve canneries, and the
license was $20. The limit was taken ofl:', and the licenses limited to British subjects.
I don't think the number of canneries would be here but for the cheap labour. The
canners think there are too many canneries, and the fisherman think there are too
many fishermen. The white fishermen have dropped away. The Japanese are taking
their place.

If we had as many fish as in 1897, or if we had any guarantee of what it would be,
it would be easier to do the fishing with a thousand Ixiats or less, than with three
thousand boats. If the Japanese had not come in the industry would have been out of
existence. With the number of canneries in existence now you could not get along un-
less there were more boats. The number of canneries has doubled within twelve j-ears.

A great many white men within the last three years ha\e become not so anxious
to fish as they were. They will not leave work at which they are earning S5 a day to
go fishing, and a great many of them have dropped out. It was not from the number
of boats, but from the number of fish in the river.

I expect the cost of production now compared with ten years ago is about double
what it was then. The cost of catching fish is more expensive, because the fishermen
have to ha%'e more expensive boats to go to sea after the fish. In the river they use
cheaper nets.

342 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

A great many of the fislienneu are dead bnike all the time. Some of them have
saved a good deal of money on the Fraser i-iver.

Under existing circumstances the canneries could not be carried on w ithout oriental
labour. Within the last three or four years they could not exist without Japanese
fishermen. Most of the Norwegian and Swede fishermen on the other side have their
homes here.

Before the Japanese came here we had a great numlier of fishermen from the State
of Washington. I said the industry was over-done. I cannot have said there were too
many fishermen. While there are so many canneries thev want more fishermen. The
fishermen do not come from the Sound now as thev did before, but they would come, I
have no doubt, if they could get work. If the number of canneries were reduced tliere
■nould not be so many fishermen wanted unless the canneries were to double their
capacity. If the number of fishermen were reduced by one-half, leaving the canneries
as they are, the effect would be that the canneries to run properlv and get a reasonable
interest on the mone^' invested, would have to reduce the price of fish.

James Anderson, whose cannery is in the city of New Westminster, said : I cor-
I'oborate the evidence of Mr. Ewen as to the labour question, what it costs in machinery
and the like. I might differ with him a little about the number of canneries. We
could do with fewer canneries, but the people who put their money into them, that is
their concern. We require the Japanese in order- to get fish, to keep running the can-
neries. I have never emploj'ed them. I have employed white men and Indians
exclusively ; at the same time it might become necessary for me to employ Japanese.
We are up the river a little more than others, and we have more control o\'er the labour
there. We employ farmers up there as fishermen. Norwegians and Swedes used to
come here from the American side, but the new regulation of issuing licenses only to
British subjects will bar these men out. I think the new regulation barred men out,
and that was what led to the Japanese coming ; that is onlv mv opinion ; I have never
eniployed Japanese.

My opinion is to get rid of Chinese and Japanese, if the conditions will allow it. I
think you can do better without the Japanese than without the Chinese.

David Douglas, bookkeeper at the Deas Island Cannery, said : The head man of
the Japanese came to us and asked to be allowed to supply us with so many fishermen.
Any Japanese who came to us had to be able to produce citizen's papers, and show that
they were prepared to fish. The Japanese live in tne house, and the man who can
speak English the best generally does the business for the others. We have two con-
tractors, Japanese ; one supplies us with twelve boats and the other fifteen. Cannei'S
are careful in making advances to Japanese, so there will be no risk. We certainly
never advance money to bring them from Japan. I have seen Japanese go out in a
fishing boat that I did not think was under their license. He (the license holder) would
probably be sick and they would go out and handle the boat for him. I have seen
whites do the same thing. They are treated the same as white fishermen. We credit
their fish to the license number of the boat, and if they came from a certain house, we
make all our settlements with the head man* Every man who has a fishing boat is
there when the settlement is made, and sees that the settlement is just. We refused to
take fish from a fisherman who had made arrangements with another cannery, and owed
them. In one case the Japanese who ran the house owned the gearing. In another
case there were several brothers who owned all the gearing in the house. Both Japan-
ese houses salt fish. One crew moved up to the camiery in the fall and salted fish there,
buying from white fishermen and others on the river.

Lee Soom, a Chinese merchant, of New Westminster, with a capital of .§30,000 in-
vested in the cannery business, employs 100 hands, says : The fishermen say there are
too many boats, — I think not too many Ijoats, but too many canneries.

i'nd. the fisherman's views.

Charles Kilby, of Nanaimo, who has fished on the Eraser for many years, says :
It is almost impossible for a white man to make anything at fishing on account of the

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 343

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Japanese employed, The Japanese obtain tlie licenses illegally. Tlii> ri\er is o\er-
crowded with boats and nets. There are altogether too man v.

Tlie unsanitary condition of Japanese and Chinese in Steveston has been the cause
of a large number of deaths among the Japanese fi'orn tj'phoid, and other diseases pecu-
liar tt) themselves called berri-berri. Thev are also doing the work of the white fisher-
men wliich we used to. do during the winter months, wlien the salmon fishing was over.
The white fishermen used to supply cordwood to the canneries, and clear the land and
cut shingle bolts. The Japanese do that now, and in fact they have almost monopolized
the unskilled labour that the white fisherman used to work at during the winter.

.Japanese have also gone largeh' into boat building on the Fraser river. I have
tried to obtain work outside of the mines, and I found that in almost everything I tried
I hail to compete with the Japanese. During the fishing season the river is over-
crowded with nets. There are altogether too many licenses issued, and the gi'at
majority of them are issued to Japanese. I was one of the delegates from the FisSPr-
men's Union to the Canneries Association, and in that interview it was admitted it
would be better for the canners and for the fishermen if the number of licenses were
restricted.

Alfred Tetteruian, of Vancouver, fisherman, said : In the early days when there
were no Japanese the whites could make a good living, but they occupying the space in
the waters it lessens our catch, or even if we caught as many, the canneries cannot get
away with them. Four years ago we were limited by the canneries to 100 fish a day,
and we had to throw 500 overboard for ten days. The number of fish is divided among
so many, there are only a few for each, and when we have a big run the canners can't
take care of theui. I could not fish last season, so many Japanese, I thought I could
not come out even. It is aggravating to a man to be pushed out by Japanese. We
rlon't want so many, and the canners don't want them. I'd rather starve together with
my own race.

Jolm L. Anderson, Vancouvei', engaged in fishing for eleven years, said : The fish-
ing in the river is overdone by an over-supply of fislieimen of different nationalities.
There are too many. We have to set our nets too near together. The Japanese take
the place of white fishermen. The French-Canadians ^^■ould come in. They would help
to populate the countiy- Tliey live well, too. I say our govei'nment issues too many
licenses bv one-half. We can't set half the number of nets within the space allowed.
The nets are set within fifty feet of each other on the Fraser river. I think there are
white men and Indians to fill all the space. From a fislierman's standpoint the go\"ern-
ment issues too many licenses foi' the Fraser river. T think tlie nearest that nets should
be set to each other should be 1,500 feet. It would be better for this country and for
the fisheries at large if there were not more than one-half of the present licenses issued.
Japanese are fairly good fishermen from what I could see of them'.

I do not believe that the market has much to do with reduction in the price that is
paid for the fish to the fishei-men. It is just the canners' action. Last year they simply
starved the men into tlieir prices, at least tjiev finally starved the Japanese into or drove
tliem into it, between them and the militia. On Puget Sound canners generally own
the ti'aps. The fish caught in the traps do not cost them as much as the fish caught by
net fishing. They pay a higher price for fish on Puget Sound than they do on the
Fraser River. If there were a reasonable number of fishermen here, I would be satisfied
with fifteen cents all through the season. There are fully as many white fishermen here
now as there were in years jiast, but they are divided up among the cannei'ies more.

I say that instead of the .Japanese, the government or someone should bring in
wjiite men, and the country will be benefitted all over. I belong to the Fishermen's
Union. The canneryraen do not appear to manifest any disposition to prevent the over-
crowding of nets on the river, because every year they are taking more boats to the
canneries. They rather encourage than discom-age the increase. I do not think it will
last five years more before there will be very few white men fishing on the river. They
are fast decreasing in numbers now. I consider a white man at $1.50 a day as cheap as
a -Japanese at §1 to work in the lumber mills or any other industry except the fishing.
In fisliing the Japanese are just as able to catch as many as the white man if he pays

344 REPORT OF ROYAL COilMISSIOS

2 EDWARD VII,. A. 1902

attention tci it. They ought to be exchided altogether. Tliej- are eertainlv a greater
menace than tlie Chinese. Tliey build Iwats and .sell them to the cannerie.s for 860, such
a boat as I have got §150 for .some time ago.

John ^McCarthy, contractor and foreman for Stevedore, says : I fish every year.
The Japanese have overrun the fishing business. They are so thick you canni*t get
your nets out. There are too many licenses. I believe there are enough whites and
Indians. I ha\e a family here. There is little encouragement to rear a faniilv here,
because there is no place for boys. 1 think the whites are badly treated.

Peter Smith, for fourteen years a fisherman on the Fraser, a half-breed of Indian
descent, says : In the first place British subjects are driven out into the deep water.
The Japanese are taking the white man's place in fishing. I was born here, married
and have three children. j\ly complaint is the Japanese have more rights than whites
and Indians. I went to get a license, and he asked me if I was British born. A white
man has to attenfl personally, but a Japanese can send a boss, and my own brother
could not get it through me. There are too many fishermen on the Fraser River. It
is overcrowded with Japanese. It has been that way for the last three years, because
there is not space enough between the nets. The best fishing grounds are crowded. I
fish the year round. If any more Japanese come in there will be bloodshed.

I used to get five cents a pound for smelts and three cents a pound for herrings.
Now the Japanese cut that down to two cents for smelts and one cent a pound for
herring. I have lieen dri\en out of the business. I cannot make mv li\ ing out of it.

John Iblx)tson, fisherman. New Westminster, said : There are too many licenses and
too many Japanese. Limit the licenses, and give the prefei-ence to the settlers.

John Scott, farmer and fisherman for fifteen years, has a wife and three chiklren,
said : The longer I have been here the harder I \\a,\e been pushed. I usefl to think this
was a white man's country, and one of the best under the sun. I am discouraged
on the fishing question. In gardening they have me to do what the Chinaman can't. I
want to see the country prosper, but 1 don't want to feel that I am being si|ueezed out
of my inheritance. I am an Englishman, and I came out when I was 17 vears old.

George Henry West, fisherman. New Westminster, since 1 894 on the Fraser, said :
There are too many fishermen on the river. There were sullicient whites and Indians.

Hezekiah Stead, New Westminster, followed fishing for nine vears until the last
two seasons, i>uts it in this way ; I think there are too many fishermen on the river.
The fewer the fisherman, the more fish thev could catch, aiul the cheaper thev could sell
the fish to the canners, and )>e more successful all rounrl.

Ji)h» Kendall, New Westminster, says : I am supposed to be a fisherman, and try
very hard to he, anil it is a failure. The trade is monopolized by the Mongolians.
There are too many fishermen on the river. I am a Newfoundlanfler by birth ; am
married and have five children, four boys and one girl, oldest \i. I am over $200
behind what I was last year this time. If the Japanese and Chinese still continue to
come I have got to leave or star\e. I am British to the backbone. I wish to stay
under the British flag. When the fishing season is over I find it the hardest task I e\er
had iu my life. I find these Mongolians have me coralled, the same as they have in
fishing. I apply at various places, sawmills and factories, and I may .say every place,
seeking employment. In three years I have worked about four months outside of fish-
ing. I got a little \N-ork outside the city. Last year I tried the same means of cutting
shingle bolts or coi'dwood. I found I could get no job. I saw shingle bolts and wood
being cut by Chinese and Japanese. I applied to Mr. Jarchne and ilr. Scott to buy
shingle bolts, l)ut they refused. There were Japanese woi'king there. A dozen people
asked me to ^^■rite them in ^Montreal. I wrote one or two and told them not to come.

Nicholas John Coulter, the vice-president of the Grand Lodge of the British Col-
umbia Fisherinen's Union, born in Jersey, Channel Islands, says : With a smaller num-
ber of licenses the whites and Indians could catch more each, and be able to supply the
canneries. Tliey can take every fish out of the river that ought to be taken out, and
could afibrd to sell them less, and both would prosper.

Patrick Cain, New Westminster, a fisherman from New Brunswick, says : I think
wOiite men and Indians could catch all that could be handled. Half the Ijoats would
catch as many as are cauiiht now.

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIORATIOX 345

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Thomas Sheaves, New Westminster, says : I haxe heeu fishiiiji liei-c for twehe
years. Till the last three vears I could make a liviiij;, and a good livin;^. Since that I
can't do it. I can't pay for the gear and make any wages at all ; cannot catch the tish :
too many fishing. There are too many .Japanese got in here the last two or tliree years.
I came from Newfoundland. Haxe a wife and three children ; li\e here ; ha\e a liouse
and lot of my own. I like the country. It is just this way, eitlu'r the Japanese have
got to get out or we have got to get out.

George Mackie, New Westminster, said : The presence of the Mongolians not only
prevents immigration of white people, hut it dri\es many who are here out of the country.
Men who came from Scotland and Canada are leturning to where they came from. A
floating population that used to come here only come now in small numbers. We were
not in lo\e with them and they stopped connng. The restriction of licenses was objected
to bv some fishermen who were not citizens of the country and who wished to fish here.
Since the flepartment made a rule that only British subjects could get a license to fish,
subjects wlio were bona fide fishei-men, they have evaded it Ijy manufacturing orientals
into British subjects so that they might get licenses- A bona fide fisherman is a man
who has had some e.xperience in fishing. The license stipulates lie should have his own
l)oats and nets. Most decidedly he should have one to be a bona fide fisherman. I believe
a great majority of the Japanese do not use their own boats and nets. The majority of
resident fishermen own their boats and their gearing. The Japanese Ijosses own the
boats that are fished in by Japanese, in the majority of cases.

]Manv other fishermen gave e\idence to the same effect : in short, it «as their
uannimous opinion tiiat the river was overcrowded, and tliat the white men were being
drixen out.

.3l!r>.— PROTESTS 0? INDIAN CIIIliFS.

The chiefs of the dififerent Indian tribes made request to the Commission that the)'
might be lieard upon the question of Ciiinese and Japanese immigration. This request
was readily granted, and as Nanaimo and Vancouver were the more convenient points it
was arranged that they might be heard there A number of the head men. Chiefs of
the tribes, attended, and they selected from among themsehes cei'tain chiefs by whom
tliey desired to lia\e their griex'ances presented.

Z. Hilton, Chief of the Quaniachin tribe in the Cowichan district, said : ^^'hen first
the white people came they took up lands and asked the Indians to work at 8:2 a day.
I was much pleased to get work and get that wage for myself and my family. I had
something to depend on, and I bouglit everything I wanted, and I was pleased at the
white people li\ing where I could get the work. When the Chinese came here first
they came with notliing at all. They brought no family with them and they broke up
everything. In a little while the Jai)anese came, and they were worse than the Chinese,
and it seems they have nt) right to stay in the place at all. I ask for something to be
done for mv jieople. I cannot get work for my people on account of these being so
thick around my place. The reason I ha^e not better clothes is I cannot get work. I
ha\"e four acres in my farm and cattle and horses. If my people do go fishing the
•Japanese are always ahead of them. Indians do get work at the canneries, but not as
much as they usefl to get. It used to be 25 cents each for salmon abt)ut eight years
ago. Last year they got about 20 cents for a shtirt time, and when the run was good
the .Japanese sent the price down. Before the Japanese came I used to get monej' and
get paid for my work ; now I have no show at all to get a living. 300 belong to
my tribe of grown up people — about 400 in all. I favour keeping Chinese and Japanese
out of the country. I hold the Japanese are the worst of the two. When my friends
go to fish the Japanese have Irurt them. The settlers employ the Chinese and Japanese
and do not emjilov the Indians at all. For four years I have got nothing from the
farmers.

Joe Kuketh, Indian Chief, gave evidence to the same efl'ect.

Edward Halliertson said he was much pleased to meet the Conunission : that when
he used to work on the farm he liad steady work all the time and now he cannot get

346 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

regular employment as he used to do because the Japanese and Chinese cause all this
trouble, because the Japanese and Chinese put the wages down awful low and that is
the reason he cannot get work. Therefore, he brings the complaint to see if the govern-
ment can do anything for his people. He wants to get his work back. He wants to
keep the Japanese and Chinese out of the place. He spends his money here when he
earns the money. He feels bad because the Japanese just bring their clothes with
them, while he has a \\ ife and family to keep. If this goes on the Indians and whiles
get no mone)'. He has the same mind towards the Japanese and Ciiinese as whites
have. He makes the same complaint as to the fisheries as Chief Hilton. The Japanese
put down wages. No advances this vear from the canneries : can't get it now like we
used to get it. That's the fault of the Chinese and Japanese. Our people are not willing
to work for the price Japanese do. There are plenty of Indians to do all the work if
there were no Japanese and Chinese. They used to work in mills but the mills are full
of Japanese and Chinese.

Jacob Kaksulatza, Indian Chief, said : I go to the Fraser to fish. One time the
Fraser River was reserved. We had a piecf of land where they used to camp. Lots of
white people tlien and they used to help us. I want the Chinese and Japanese kept out.
All tlie Indians are hard up. There are lots of Indians here.

Chief James Harry, of the Sijuamish Indians, represented seven Indian Chiefs,
namely, Chief James Harry, Chief Tom, Chief Harry, Chief Joe, all of the Scjuamish
Indians ; Chief Joseph, Capaline River, Chief Casino, Langlev, and Chief James Isaac,
Port Hannuond. He savs ; The Japanese come to this country, they come too thick
altogether. It don't matter where vou go you see Japanese. You go to the Fraser
River you see Japanese, hundreds in the summer time. You go to Howe Sound, nothing
but Japanese. You go to Indian River, just the same, nothing but Japanese. In fish-
ing time we had no chance to fish ourselves, and when we begin to fish we put our net
in the boat and we go out to fish. Two or three nights we lost our nets. I lost mine ;
the Japanese cut it : I saw it was cut ; I saw the Japanese cut it ; I caught the man.
The Japanese thick on Point Gray ; I have no chance to fish, so I can't fish. There are
too many Japanese. You see boats three miles out from the coast, nothing but Japanese,
and so we cannot make a living. The Japanese kill us : they are killing Indians, killing
whites. My people ha\e no chance to make a living. Can't make bread and butter :
no chance to go to work ; they are all over ; they work for nothing. They began about
ten years ago and got thicker, thicker, thicker all the time, and last year too thick alto-
gether. We used to catch 200, 300 : we don't now. We used to get 6 cents and 7
cents, but no limit ; now canneries pay 1 8 and 20 cents, but as soon as they are beginning
to run they put a limit — first day 200, second day 150 ; that is the lowest limit. Each
boat would not get so many. I,ast summer the highest I got was 1-50 fish. There are
too many fishing on the river. I think you can get any amount of Indians and whites
to supply the canneries if you look that way. My people, my father, my grandfather
fished on the 8i|uaniish River and Fraser River.

The Japanese are cutting all the wood we have here in Britisli Columbia and bolts
on the north arm, Howe Sound, and here in Vancouver on the west side, and our people
have no chance to go to work and cut the cedar. They used to cut the cedar and bolts
antl wood. The Japanese cut wood for too little — just like for nothing. My people
worked in the mills : now have no chance. The Japanese work for alxiut 815 a month
— not enough to buy clothes and keep \\ife and family. I have a wife and three child-
ren. Thirteen and fourteen years ago the Indians got 81.50 and 81.25 working in the
mills : now they get no chance to go to work. The Japanese can live on a tablespoonful
of rice and a little perch. We are not the same. I think the Indians and whites as
good as the Japanese. The Japanese build boats cheap and make oars. We make sails,
boats and oars and everything. Our women get work in the canneries; they get 81,
81.25, 81,15, 81.10, depends on what they do. Boys and girls get work when plenty of
fish. We do hand-logging in winter. We do stevedoring, make good wages but not
steady. I think you tould get enough whites and Indians to do the work. There are
a little more than 10,000 Indians, men, women and children, engaged in fishing. Can-
neries take fishermen just as they come along. Just as many fish now but too many

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 347

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

boats and not as many fish to tlie boat. I should say that 2,000 licenses sliould be
granted, but not over 3,000. Good way if yo^'ernnient says not so many licenses. The
Japanese work for nothing. The Indians want to get fair wages. This is our country,
not a Japanese country.

Chief Casimil, of Langley Tribe, said : I ask that you should liave compassion on me
for whatever I tell you. We belong to this country ; it is our country. I was boi-n in
this countiy. iNIy fatliers luive been here long before ; that is I am a citizen of this
country : I am here to ask you people to look after tins country for- us. AVe are being
driven out of the country, as we cannot make a living as we used to do. I wish you to
remember whatever I tell you now.

The Japanese are getting too many. We cannot get work and cannot get any
money because of the Japanese. Very few of us can get any food because of the
Japanese. I am very glad that you are all taking stock of this, and that you will take
it to Ottawa before the head man. That is all I have to say. I wish to express my
sorrow ; if the government does not look after them they will soon control the land.
We got our land from the government, and we should have a right to fish, but we can-
not fish an<l make a living.

Joseph Isaacs, chief at Port Hammond, was satisfied with what was said, and was
not sworn.

Chief .loseph, Capilano Creek, said : The Japanese come in so numerous it cheapens
laboui'. They liring down the fish to .3 cents. The Japanese know they don't belong
to this country. They make their country good on our money. That is why our country
does not improve any. Can't get a good house or make a good living. Twenty years
ago we could go out fishing and bring home 200 or 300. There were two canneries. It
was good then. A great many canneries now and Japanese came in numerouslj^ and
things not good. I tell the truth and wish you (the Commissioners) to tell at Ottawa
that they take the money out of the country. I am glad to be able to speak.

Chief .John gave evirlence to the same effect.

4tII. OPINION'S OF OFFICI.VLS.

Colin B. iSwoi'd, Dominion Government inspector of fisheries for British Columbia,
said : The relative numljer of Indians and whites would be difficult to estimate. The
Indians go under white men's names in many eases. Prior to 1889 there were I believe
twenty licenses allowed to each cannerv. In the first instance I think there was no
restriction. In 1889 the number was reduced to ten to eauners and traders. In 1900
the regulation was, in respect to ten licenses granted to canners, that the fishermen
would have to be registered, and were required to take out licenses in theii' own names.
In 1 900 the licenses were still limited to ten to a cannery. Licensees must all be British
subjects. Tlie number of licenses given represents the number issued for the whole
province. Canners are not permitted to turn over their licenses to Japanese who are
not citizens. The fisherman must be a man who is ([ualifled to take out a license in his
own name. The Indian does not require to have his name registered. Every one else
does. The half breed is treated the same as a white man. I have no means of account-
ing for the enormous increase in the number <.>f Japanese in 1900.

Each one of these licenses respresents a fishei'man, and they usually have a boat
puller. At present some of them are fishing alone, but in tlie height of the season they
generally liave a boat puller.

To i-egister, the fishermen have to attend before the officer appointed to receive
them. Fishery guardians are authorized to take registration of fishermen and some
others. The personal appearance of the applicant is required in every case. One of the
officers last year was under a wrong impression as to that point. In issuing licenses
we have no authority to go beyond the certificate of the court that they are naturalized
citizens. In several cases we found an attempt was being made to obtain a license on a
certificate issued to another man, a Japanese ; in all, such eases we refused to issue the
license. There did not seem to be anv intention to defraud.

348 BE PORT OF IIUYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD Vil.. A. 1902

I should think we have too many licenses issued for the necessity of fisheries. I
think myself there should be only about one-half the licenses fur the Fraser river. I
think it is in the interest of the canneries and of the fishermen, and of the fish, that only
one-half the number of nets should be used on the river. I say from Point Roberts to
Point Gray, if there had been half the numlier of licenses issued the fishermen would
have made more for themselves at a small price for the fish. I have not solved the
question as to how that limitation could be had with convenience to all parties. The
limitation of the number of licenses was attempted before I had anything to do with the
office. If the number of Japanese licenses issued last year (Lf^il^ licenses) is deducted
from the whole number there would be 3.000 licenses left. I think that would have
been a sufficient number to ha\ e done all the fishing with the best results to the canners
and the fishermen. I think that the number of white men and Indians that can be
employed now would be sufficient to take all the fish that would be required. The e.x-
clusion or limitation of the Japanese would not detrimentally affect the fishing interest,
if the white fisherman and Indians can be obtained in the different localities in sufficient
number, in the localities required.

All the fishermen personally known to me are men who have settled in the vicinity,
but they are a comparatively small proportion of whom I can speak of from personal
knowledge. I cannot say if a large proj)ortion of them are men with families.

I cannot suggest any arrangement that could be made by the government by which
the number of fishermen could be limited. The regulation that drift nets shall not be
used to obstruct more that one-third of any river, and kept at least 250 yards apart has
never been enforced. The regulation seems to be in regard to set or fixed nets. It hail
not been enforced before I took the office, and I did not attemi)t to enforce it. They
use drift nets here for salmon.

I think the Japanese fishermen generallv have a Japanese as a lx)at jndler. It
might be jtossible for the number of boat pullers to become qualified as British subjects
and account for an increase of licensed fishermen from 930 t(-> lf<92 last year. I ha\e
no record of licenses issued to Japanese prior to 1896.

To reduce the licenses I do not see how it can be enforced as a matter of legislation
or regulation Ijy the government. ■ No, we could not enforce the regulation in respect
to the 2.50 yards. The nets do not drift at the same rate. The t[uantity of salted
dog-salmon exported by the Chinese or Japanese would be shown by the reports. These
are mostly taken from the custom house records. There were 39 seining licenses issued.
None were issued to Japanese. All such licenses are dealt with Viy the department at
Ottawa. Seining licenses at present are supposed to be issued where drift nets caimot
be employed. I ha\e no information on the subject. Onlv one trap license is issued.
One for Boundary Bay. I understand the department consider that traps would result
in the depletion of fish, and undoubtedly their use would dispense with labour if the
traps were in proper places. If you want to employ the men of the country it will be
better with gill nets. If you want simply to develop the industry, then it is diffei-ent.
It is very difficult to say ; the fishing industry might be developed in such a way a.s to
place men who now make their li\ing at fishing at a great disad\antage. There would
not be so many employed. If the number of fish taken now would be sufficient to pi-e-
vent the depletion of fish it would be no advantage to set traps. I have been a memlier
of the Local Legislatui'e for some years. I would not care to express an opinion as to
Chinese innuigration.

Licenses have to be renewed everv year. The objection to the traps is it would
leave no fish for the drift men to catch. If you used traps in addition to the present
.system ; if you adopt set nets and traps you could regulate the catch much better. The
fish caught by gill nets on this side must have escaped the traps on the American side.
Purse seines are illegal in this country. I think this country can be developed in time
without this alien race. I think this country would suffer if it lost the canning industry.
If cannery men say that the industry cannot be carried on at a profit without oriental
labour I wt)uld accejit it with an allowance.

There is jealousy over the Japanese coming into the fishing business. As regards
individual feeling I have not seen anything but what it is friendly enough. Somejiarts

ON CHIXESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 349

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

of tlie ii\er are mure tax ourable for ch'ift nets tlian others. Wliere there are snags the
nets will not drift, and the nets are liable to be torn by the snags. Every fisherman
pays ten dollars for a licen.se. There were something like three thou.sand boats fishing
on the Fraser Ki\ er last season, cinering about sixty (jr seventy miles. When a Japan-
ese conies to get a license he has to produce naturalization papers, anfl to [irevent frauil
the officer here puts his initials and the year on the naturalization certificate.

If it is left to the cannerymen and the fishermen to reduce the number of licenses,
and at the same time Japanese immigration is permitted to pour in here, the result
would be an increase of Japanese fishermen, and the white fishermen would be driven
out.

Thomas Robinson, assistant to the inspector of fisheries. New Westminster, said :
Up to last year all the licenses were issued in New Westminster. Licenses are issuefl
for the wliole province. 8ome fishermen fish up north and then go south as well. I
should think about 75 per cent is a fair estimate of those issued for the Fraser River.
The numl)er of licenses issued to canners in 1900 on the Fraser River was 397 ; Rivers
Inlet, 50; .Skeena River, 75 ; Naas River, 20; total. 54:^. In 1899, 157 licenses were
issued t« canners ; in 1900 the restrictions were relaxed somewhat. The endorsement
of the fisherman's name on the license was abolished, making them transferable to any
registered British subject. ,

If there is anything in the name of an applicant for a license, or in their speech,
which would lead me to suspect that they were of foreign birth, I would demand the
production of citizens papers, and I would do the same if I was not personally acquainted
with the man.

It is very difficult to tell an American citizen. If lie denys his citizenship we have
no means of proving otherwise. People from the old country do not generally apply
until they have been liere for some time. They cannot fish until they get citizen's
papers. The object is to keep the industry in the hands of our own people. If a fresh
innnigrant he would first engage in boat pulling until he had the proper qualifications.
I had four years' experience on the river as a fisherman. 1 think on the rixer the fish-
ing industry is overdone. If there were two-thirds the number of Ixiats it would be
better. There are not necessarily too many canneries. With fewer boats the3^ would
be able to get as many fish, and it would pay the fishermen better a.s the canners could
take more fish from each boat. In a large run it becomes a question not of how many
fish you can catch, but of how many fish you can dispose of. I am not prepared to say
that canneries compete among themselves. When there are few fish rurming, and there
is a demand for canned salmon, of course better prices will rule. The fish are not all
caught in the river ; a good many are caught outside the river. The American ti'aps
get a larger toll out of our fish than most people have any conception of. There is no
room for the number of nets insifle the river that are at present licensed, and men are
forced outside. The conditions at piresent make it almost imjiossible to carry out the
fishing regulations as to the distance of nets being aj)art and one-third of the river
being left free. A little mor-e than two days in the week for protection would not hurt
the fish. The catch has not shown any sensible diminution. Fishing is more or less a
game of chance. The permanence of the industry should be of first consideration. I
have not seen any particular advantage i)i the Japanese as fishermen over any other
fishermen. Their equipment is practically the same. The objection of white fishermen
to them is tliat they have crcjwded the people of the country out of their nwn grounds.
The development of the canning industry on Puget Sound has made the conditions on
the Fraser River, both for fishermen and canners, more hazardous. I believe their
sock-eye type is somewhat larger than ours. The sock-eye typfe is made up of Fraser
River salmim. They use traps and purse-seines. They have no close .season until the
fish are gone. The waters there are regarded as territorial waters. Within the last
seven or eight years the canning industry there has developed more largely. Even with
those traps on the other side, I think two-thirds of the number of l)oats on the Fraser
River, woulfl be equal to handle the run of fish. The traps nearest the Pacific Ocean
generally get the sock-eves, liefore they are caught on the Fraser River. In round

3S0 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD Vll., A. 1902

numbers, at the end of last month (Api-il), 800 licenses were issued tu Japanese, and
200 to whites. I think it was because of some rumour that got abroad among the
Japanese that there was going to be some restriction in regard to issuing licenses to
them. The government would he justified in discriminating between citizens in issuing
licenses if the jireservation of the fish was concerned. The preservation of the fisheries
in their full strength depends a good deal on the regulation as to the number of fisher-
men, and I think the American regulations are very important to be considered in that
matter. They allow more machinery to be used there. Too many fishermen will result
in an injury to the fish, injury to the canneries, and injury to the fishermen. In good
runs fewer boats and fewer nets would supply the demand. In the case of the limita-
tion of the number of fish to canneries in a heavy run, a great number of fish are thrown
away. If there were a less number of boats last year they would have got more than
the number of fish which would have been warranted. The canners' pack is not the
first object. The less the run, the less should be taken out of it. To have 3,000 or
4,000 men who are employed only for a short time, and then looking for odd work, is
not in the interest of the community. It tends to keep white settlers out.

W. L. Fagan, Provincial assessor and collector for the City of Vancouver, said :
There is but one way to drive the Japanese out of the river, and that is by the immig-
ration pf some fishing races from Ireland, Scotland and the Baltic ; bring those men
here and give them fifty acres each to cultivate. If white men were brought here and
given land to cultivate, say fifty acres each, they would soon be able to compete with
the orientals. Do not allow them to preempt for some time, charge them but a nominal
rent. They would then have small holdings of their own, and in the fishing season they
would go on the river. At present there is no room for immigration ; there is nothing
for them to do. If they had land, that would occupy at least two-thirds of their time.
I do not think any more orientals would come here as the contractors know the
market and will only import sufficient to supply the demand. Those white people are
not well off in their own country, and would only be too glad to come here. I would
sooner see the w hite labourer here, even although it took a longer time to develop the
country. Fishermen from Ireland, Scotland or the Baltic cannot come in here unless
the government assists them. The Japanese \\a.\e got their places and they keep them
as long as they can : we would have to help the whites to come here. Certainly the
government ought to protect our own people If white men can come here and get
land and settle on it, it will soon solve the problem of the Japanese on the river. The
Japanese do not seem to care about making homes here ; they do not take up land ;
they do not seem to care about settling here. They come here and make a few hundred
dollars and then go back to Japan when they can get away. There is no contractor,
eitlier Japanese or Chinese, will go over to China and Japan and spend money to bring
labourers here without there is a market for them.

At the time of the rush to the Klondike a great many white fishermen left this
country, and the Japanese were here. I do not know how they knew to come here at
that time ; what hajipened to bring them here I will never tell you, but they saw there
was an opening here and they came. If you had something to put in their place I would
restrict more of the Japanese coming here. I think you could easily get enough fisher-
men to come here if there were inducements for them to come, which do not exist at
present. They wont emigrate here on chance. You cannot show them anything to
induce them to come here. It would require the government to take an interest in
them and show that interest by restriction of Chinese and Japanese innuigration.

Most undoubtedly it would be a good regulation to make the Japanese prove that
they were British subjects before thev got their licenses. I have no doubt many of
them have been illegally naturalized. The Japanese ought to be compelled to appear
personally to get their li>?enses, and they ought to be able to prove that they have been
legally naturalized. I would have everything arranged that the fishermen of British
Columbia would have proper protection against aliens. A great many of the Japanese
fish all the year round.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 351

SEeSlONAL PAPER No. 54

FliAlUVLEXT NATIRALIZATIOX PAPERS.

The iiiitural irritation caused by tlii.s large and sudden influx of Japanese as fisher-
men was mucli aggravated by the fact that there was gra\e irregularity, if not actual
fraud, in obtaining certificates of naturalization by very many of the Japanese. It
a,ppears that the fare from Japan to Jiritish Columbia, being very low, large numbers of
Japanese have been in the habit of coming out for the fishing season, arriving in April
and Mav, and returning after the fishing season is over. Manv of these were engaged
as boat pullers for the Japanese fishermen, the regulations not requiring for this serWee
that they should be British subjects. It appears tliat these boat pullers were naturalized.
It is certain that many of them never resided in Canada for one full year. Some of
them may have resided here during the fishing season only for three years, and yet
hundreds of these men, who had never in any way complied with the requirements of
the law, were naturalized. The Commission took sufficient evidence to establish these
facts. It was impossible for them to inquire into every case. A short reference to some
of the eviflence will sufiice.

E. W. ^McLean, notary public, of Vaucou\"er, says : I naturalized quite a number
of them (Japanese). My commission was revoked. There was never a Japanese but
what was accompanied by another Japanese who vouched for him. I swore the Japanese
who vouched. Tliere was no case within my knowledge where there were any naturalized
before they were here three years. I naturalized about 208 Japanese between Mav and
July, 1900. They came before the fishing season. They came three, four or five at a
time, not ten in a batch. The}' were accompanied by an interpreter. Half signed their
names in English characters, others wrote their names in Japanese. I could not tell
that was his name. The oath was read to them by an interpreter, and there was an
interpreter's jurat. I had known about a dozen of them for over two years. I took
the interpreter's word for it. It did occur to me there might be a fraud on me. I
.satisfied myself beyond a doubt that they were entitled to be naturalized. I don't now
think they committed a fraud. I had not naturalized any befi)re this. Most of these
people were boat pullers and had gone to Japali, and were now returning so that thev
could get naturalization papers and go fishing. I had the naturalization forms there.
I never had any instructions or orders in council att'ecting that. A great manv go to
Japan and return in the spring. The mass of the other affidavits that were taken were
of the same class. I knew in the fall of 1899 a numljer went to Japan. Xearlv evei"v
steamer that went was loaded. The passage was about §.'50.

Gin Kanga, smoking room steward on the Em/trffis of China, says ; I work on the
Empress of China. My run is from Vancouver to Yokohama. I remember that by the
Empress 200 Japanese came out for fishing in April, 1 -50 of them returned in Septemljer.
The fare is about $25 from Yokohama, and S50 to go back, and sometimes 835. I know
by the number of tickets that they are fishermen. Just fishermen and farmers emigrate
here.

Robert T. Burtwell, dominion fisheries guardian, said ; When I reeei\ed my
appointment as fishery guardian, I had to go to Captain McFadden's office ; he was the
fishery inspector ; I copied the entries in his book into my Ijook ; I noticed there were
a great number of Japanese and others entered as fishermen, who could only have been
a \"ery short time in the country ; and I noticed them there in the office that many mere
children were coming over and presenting certificates claiming to oljtain fishing licenses
as British subjects. They were not old enough, many- of them ; I called Captain
^IcFadden's attention to that ; I called the attention of the fishermen's union to that
fact, and I went to Mr. Bremner, the dominion labour commissioner, and called his
attention to it. With reference to the Japanese who came into the office when I was
there, I used to go and fetch Mr. Bremner up. He used to interrogate the Japanese ;
he would take them up before the Japanese Consul, and there he would elicit the infor-
mation. In a great number of cases they had only been a short time in the country,
that they had lieen in all probability prompted by others to come there and )*erjure in
order to obtain these certificates to get licenses. In my presence !Mr. Bremner elicited
the information that Japanese who had been here for .some little time were in the habit

352 REPORT OF ROYAL COM MISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

of personating' other Japanese for the purpose of obtaining licenses to tish ; in this way
the matter was brought laefore Jlr. Shiniizu, the Japanese Consul. I went to a certain
notary public here in Vancouver, !Mr. Thicke, I went there with the purpose ui getting
naturalization papers myself to find out how the thing \\"as done.

Q. To examine into the method ? — A. To get at the way the thing was di)ne ; to
find out the way that naturalization papers were secured, and how the certificate-^ came
to be granted. I told ^Ir. Tiiicke it was imi)erati\e I sliould ha\e my paper in very
short order. He said he could manage that very easily, that he had secured a great
number, and he showed me quite a pile of Japanese applications that he had on the table.
He said he was going to put these through, and he would put mine through at the same
time. He asked me if I knew of any others who wanted natui'alization certificates ; I
told him I knew of several Italians who wished to become naturalized. He said if I
introduced any trade to him, he would put them thi-ough for the sum of $2, and he
would give me a rake-oflf of 50 cents. So from that I came to the conclusion that the
system of naturalizing Japanese and others in British Columbia was perfectly rotten. I
may say in reference to my duties as fishery guardian, that I found the Japanese were
more prone to fish illegally than the white people or white fishermen.

Q. What do you mean by that ? — A. They would fish with nets longer than ai-e
permitted by law, and they would stake nets in \iolatioii of the law, and they would
fish during illegal hours ; and I came to the conclusion as a fact, though it was very
difiicult to trace it, that the Japanese had transferred licenses. The Jajianese are very
hard to identify. I considered that the number of nets fishing around the Fraser River
was far too many ; that there being so many nets around the mouth of the river thev
drive, the fish laack and prevent them entering the river, tlieir natural spawning ground ;
the result of that was, I have seen salmon gt) past the river and go into some of the
little inlets that were dropping ripe spawn in .salt water.

Q. Now, what was it that lead you to think that there was illegal naturalization of
Japanese ? — A. From the manner in which I found that the Japanese were being
representt^d by others. One man would come to the notary public and say that a number
of Japanese desired to take out naturalization papers : the notary public would swear
liim, and then the process would go on ; but other irregularities I have no doubt crept
in. Mr. Thicke forgot to swear me until I jogged his memory that I had not been
sworn. The notary public will then ask the party if he had been three years in the
country, and his name and address : he would then make out a form, and he would
attend to the rest of it.

Q. Is the person you refer to still a notary public ( — A. Xo, sir.

Q. Why I — A. His authority was cancelled by the provincial government after
the investigation.

Q. Have you ascertained how many of those naturalization certificates were issueil
to men who were not entitled to them \ — A. There were fi\ e parties brought up in one
of the courts here, brought liefore the court by Pi-o\-incial Constable Campbell, and it
was pro\'ed that thev were not entitled to certificates, that they had not been in the
country. The imestigation was not a sweeping one, it simply embraced the men brought
into court, ilr. Brennier, the dominion labour conmiissionei', liad a list iif those who
went before the Japanese Consul, and who it was found out were not entitled to Ijc
naturalized. A great many of those cases I brought tti his notice.

Edward Bremner, labour commissioner for British Columbia, said : I was asked
by some of the fishermen to make some inquiries at the oflice where licenses were issued.
On questioning some Japanese who appeared with naturalization papers and asked for
licenses, I discovered tliat many of them had not been the required time in the country
to get those papers legally. In one case a Japanese had papers where he had only been
three weeks in the country. I know pei-sonally of three different cases. Out of thirty
Japanese who ai)plied one afternoon, not more than four could make any attempt of
understanding English. Even those four could speak \-ery little English. I had to
emjilov an interpi-eter, and notwithstanding the disadvantage, one of them admitted
that he had been only two and a-half years in tlie country at the time, and yet his
naturalization certificate was granteil the year before. On another occasion out of about

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIORA TION 353

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

fifteen nuestioiietl thi-uugh tlie secretary of the Japanese Consul, two accuserl of fraud
were prosecuted, one was accused of impersonation : the excuse he gave was that the
man whose papers he presented was sick. This was last yeai-, 1900. These were the
only cases I investigated. In the case of Sayo Tario 3Iokogama, I understand from the
secretary of the consul that he could neither read nor write in his own language even.
He admitted that he had only been in the country three weeks. This would seem to
show that the man was not perhaps as much to blame as those who had brought him
there. The impression I got was that there were a great many cases of fraud. I fot
possession of this naturalization paper as it was left at the office pending the decision of
the fishery officer, whether he would grant the party appl\-ing a license or not, anfl the
party never called for it again, that is the original. The name here is Nakakama, and
that was handed in, and a certificate applied for bv a man who gave his name as Soyo
Tarit) Nakagama. It would seem there was some mistake made h\ the notary public.

Thomas Robinson, assistant inspector of fisheries, New Westminster, says : La.st
year it occurred to me that a great many had secured their citizen papers without com-
plying with lawful conditions. My experience with the Japanese is that when they
have been here two years they have some knowledge of our language, whereas last vear
numbers of them did not understand the meaning of 'yes' or 'no' but their papers
being in proper form as issued by the court, I had no alternative but to recognize them.
There were several cases of personation, one last week where a man presented papers
as his own, which I proved to be false. He was a Japanese. I took possession of the
papers until the proper party applied for them. The papers had been drawn from a
bunch. I have had cases of this kind before, but found there was no provision for
which action could be taken. They never seem to have taken our fishery regulations
verv seriously.

Mr. A. E. Back, of Vancouver, district registrar of the .Supreme Court, since its
establishment there, pre.sented a carefully prepared statement on this subject, from which
the following extracts are taken :

In respect to Naturalization Acts, Xaturalization Act, 1S70, United Kini^dom,
pro\ifles that :

An alien who has resided in the United Kingdom for a

a term of not less than five j'ears may apply to one of Her ^Majesty's

principal secretaries of state for a certificate of naturalization.

The applicant shall addut-e in support of his application such evidence of his resi-
dence or service, and intention to reside or serve, as such secretary of state may require.
The said secretary of state, if satisfied with the. evidence adduced, shall take the ease
of the applicant into consideration, and may, with or without assigning any reason,
give or withhold a certificate as he thinks most conducive to the public good, and no
appeal shall lie from his decision, but such certificate shall not take effect until the
applicant has taken the oath of allegiance. (Sec. 7, Xaturalization Act, 1S70. United
Kingdom.)

Re. Xvrth-wesl Terrilorias. — Section 2, Order in Council, January 29, lt>99, pro-
vides ;

His Excellency in Council has been pleased to make the following regulations :

Section 2. In the North-west Territories the certificate mentioned in the twelfth
section of the said Act shall be presented to a judge of the Supreme CVjurt of the North-
west Territories, who shall take such measures to satisfy himself that the facts stated
in the certificates are true, as shall in each case appear to him to be necessary ; and
when satisfied that the facts stated in the certificate are true, he shall grant to the
alien a certificate of naturalization, authenticated under his hand and seal of the
Court.

This law in my strong opinion should be applied to British Columbia. In theoiy
the general Act of Canada hereinafter referred to is a proper measure, taking into con-
sideration the need of immigration, but a condition has arisen on this coast which needs
the protection of above section 2, giving the judge to whom the J. P.'s or Notary's cer-
tificate is presented, the power to take such measures to satisfy himself that the facts
stated in the certificate are true ; and here I see no reason why, as in the English Act,
54—23

354 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

power should not be given to the judge to gi\e or withhold a eertiticiite as he thinks
most conducive to the public good, with or without assigning any reason.

On July 30 last, I inquired of the registrar ef the Supreme Court, at Regina,
what measures as a matter of fact the judge did take to satisfy himself. It appears
that in addition to the J. P.'s or Notary's certificates an affida\'it of some other re.spon-
sible person as to the good character of the applicant is required.

Now, regarding the Naturalization Act of Canada, after consideration in the
light of my experience, I see little to complain of. I suspect that there exists an
imprt)per and incomplete method of carrying out the Act by the persons entrusted,
either through ignorance or inadvertence. I refer to the persons mentioned in section

9, particularly the J. P.'s and Notaries, and in doing so I wish here to say that these
persons are pos.sessed of all the skill and intelligence expecte 1 by the statute delegat-
ing the power.

I respectfully submit and earnestly recommend the following oliservations to the
Commissioners : Naturalization forms should have marginal notes : directions to the
notary that in the case of a inarksman, that the artida\it was first read over and
explained to the deponent, and that he appeared perfectly to understand the same ; and
in ease an interpreter is required 'that the notary first swear the interpreter to truly
interpret.

By section 8, the alien must take the oaths of residence and allegiance. By section

10, the alien siiall adduce such evidence, etc., as the person before whom lie appears
recjuires, and such person on being satisfied with such evidence and that the alien is of
good character, shall grant the certificate. Section 8 having already provided for the
taking of the oaths of residence and allegiance, section 10 surel}' requires some additional
evidence, it may be much or little, but some must be adduced, without casting any
imputation on the honesty of the justices of the peace or notaries. I venture the
opinion that no evidence whatever other than the taking of above-mentioned oaths is
ever adduced. Now, if I am right in this conjecture, it follows that by last paragraph
of section 11, the certificate referCed to in section 10, form B, was not properly before
the court, and all things had not been done to entitle the certificate to be presented,
read and filed of record in the court, and it therefore follows that any certificate of
naturalization issued on the evidence of an uncorroborated aflidavit has been improvi-
dently issued and may be cancelled. The justice of peace or notary's certificate as
presented to the court is in appearance proper and \'alid, and the court would hardly on
a mere conjecture direct the justice of peace or notary to be cross-examined, admitting
the power to do so.

A stop should be put to trafficing naturalization certificates.

EXPORT OF FISH TO .TAPAX.

Ewen W. McLean, Chinese interpreter, said : I was asked to ascertain the (|uantity
of dog fish — what are called dog salmon — shipped last year. I find that in the year
1900 the shipments to Japan of that salted fish amounted to some 2,200 tons. I got
the information from the Japanese exporter, a man named Koronaga. He made the
contracts for the Japanese shipping the salmon. He tells me there were 1 6,000 tons
shipped through Dodwell it Co., and 600 tons by the ship Aliiha, which was lost upon
the coast. They did not ship by the Canadian Pacific Railway. They could not get
freight by the Canadian Pacific Railway boats. They shipped mostly from Victoria,
by the American line, for which Dodwell ik Co. are the agents.

Q. Why wasn't any of the dog salmon shipped by the Canadian Pacific Railway ] —
A. The Canadian Pacific Railway does not care to ship any of that kind of freight.

Q. Why? — A. Because there is quite a difterence I understand in their through
freight. I understand most of the fish is put up by Chinese contractors in the canneries.
They generally occupy a part of the cannery after the general fishing season is over. I
understand that each fish costs about 1 6 cents ; that includes catching and packing.
There is no reason why the business should not grow to large proportions. The
business should be large here, but last year, on account of the war, they could not get

ox CHINESE AND J A PANESE IMMIGRA TION 355

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

freif,'ht from here. I know that quite a number of Japanese went home from here to
join their army, and I know that freight was difficult to get from here. They have been
shipping that class of salmon three or four years. They are caught after the regular
fishing season is over, by the Japanese. They are an inferior fish.

Q. Are the steamers that carry the freight not controlled by the Canadian Pacific
Railway ? — A. No, they are under the control of the Northern Pacific, I understand.
Their headquarters ai-e at Victoria, and their general agents or general managers are
Dodwell ct Co. They run in connection with the Northern Pacific. It is an American
line of boats.

Q. So that this trade, whate\"er it amounts to, is carried in American waters and
the fish are caught and packed by Japanese I — A. Yes.

Q. What benefit do we get from that ^ — A. Only the small freight to Victoria, •?!
a ton. The salt comes principally from Liverpool and Australia. The fish are salted
and put up in boxes. They are made at the lumber mills. I cannot tell the value of
the fish. That is a new industry : it was started as an experiment by the Japanese
some years ago. During the big run of 1897 they salted a good deal of the sock-eye
salmon not required by the canneries ; they salt them in big tubs or tanks that they
have for the purpose. I think it is an industry likely to grow to large dimensions. The
canneries do not seem to have facilities for salting sock-eye salmon as the Japanese. I
think Japan is a big market for fish. Fish going from here would have to compete with
fish caught in Japan by cheap labour. I don't think there is a great deal of deep-sea fishing
in Japan. A great part of the fishing is coast fishing. Where we have one fishing boat
they have thousands. There are so many fish easily caught on the coast there that
there is little or no necessity for deep-sea fishing. They catch fish with lines there
generally. They have no such thing as our large runs of salmon. There is abundance
of fish in Japan but not of the kind we have here.

Thomas Robinson, assistant to the fishery inspector, said : In 1898 the value of
dry salted dog salmon amounted to •?! 60,000. In 1899 the value was •§! 20,000, and in
1900 the value was .§298,000. I think that covers the ground. The value is reckoned
at three or four cents a pound, I cannot recall which. We ha\e no information as to
the number engaged in that business.

The export of fish and fish products to Japan since 1896, is as follows : —

1896 s 2

1897 1,069

1898 17,986

1899 40,270

1900 : 47,773

(See the Report of the Department of Trade and Commerce, 1900, page 614.)

SUMMARY.

Prior to 1896 comparatively few Japanese engaged in fishing, and a record of
licenses issued to them was not kept. In that year 452 fishing licenses out of a total of
3,5.3.3 were granted to Japanese. This number has increased until in 1900 out of a
total of 4,892 fishing licenses, 1892 were granted to Japanese, and in 1901 out of a total
4,722 licenses, 1,958 were granted to Japanese. Tlie increase in the number of licenses
is in direct proportion and coiresponds to the increased number taken out by .Japanese.
Each canner recei\es a certain number of licenses, and a numljer of these are given to
Japanese ; so that about two thousand licenses were held by the Japanese for the year
1900, and over that number for the year 1901.

For each Ixiat there is at least one additional puller, making over four thousand
Japanese directly engaged in the fishing business, and many more indirectly connected
therewith. The Japanese are expert fishermen, having followed that calling in their
own land, and unless something is done it is perfectly evident that they will in a few
j'ears supersede the white fishermen and control this business. Not one in twenty can
54— 23i

356

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

speak English beyond a few words. Numbers of them return to tlieir own land after

the fishing season is over, and the rest are thrown upon the labour market to find

employment where they can, to the great detriment of the white working man and

the incoming settler

It is manifest that Japanese become naturalized not for the purpose of liecoming

citizens of the country in the ordinary sense of that term, but for the express pui-jjose of

qualifying themselves for fishermen's licenses.

The following table will show the rate of increase and the (langer apprehended : —
(Prior to 1890 there is no record of any Japanese having lieen naturalized in British

Columbia.)

JAPANESE NATURALIZED IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.

Year.

Victoria.

Vancouver.

New West-
minster.

1890

1891

1892

iti

1893

1894

1895

1896

197

1897

230

1898

1899

144

140

1900

238

437

231

1901 to August 29

182

601

1,363

.545

Total

Nanainio

Chiliwack (for year 1900).
Nelson (for year 1897)

2,509

179

2,692

During the same period the returns show that 1,15G Chinese were naturalized in
British Columbia.

At Vancouver the total number of Japanese naturalized is 1,363, while all other
nationalities, including Chinese, that took out naturalization papers amounted 734,
exclusive of whites naturalized during the year 1901, which would pi'obablv make the
total nnmber of whites naturalized about 900. Nearly 1,700 Japanese ha\e been
naturalized during the last three years.

The great increase in the number of licenses granted on the Fraser has iiad the
effect of overcrowding, forcing many of the fishermen to leave the Fraser for the open
water, which requires a large sea-going boat at two or three times the cost of the
smaller one formerly used on the Fraser River. This overcrowding also decreases the
individual catch and forces the fishermen to demand more for their fish tlian formerly,
and receive less remuneration for their work, both the canner anil the fisherman losing
thereby. It has created serious irritation between the white fislierman and Japanese,
the former complaining that they are forced out of an industry which they helped to
develop, and that after the fishing season is over they are met by large numbers of
Japanese in every industry where unskilled labour is employed, who work at very low
wages, have no family to support and send or take most of their earnings out of the
country. i

The natural irritation caused by this large and sudden influx of Japanese as fisher-
men was much aggravated by the fact that there were grave irregularities if not actual
fraud in obtaining certificates of naturalization by many of the Japanese. It appears that

ox C/nXEUE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 357

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

the fare from Japan to British Columbia being ver_v low, hii'ge numbers of Japanese have
been in the habit of coming out for the fishing season, arriving in Apiil and May and
many of them returning after the fishing season is over. Many of these wei'e engaged
as boat pullers for the Japanese fishermen, the regulations not requiring for this ser\iee
that they should be British subjects. It appears that these boat pullers were afterwards
naturalized. It is certain that many who were naturalizerl never resided in Canada for
one full year, some of them maj' have resided here during the fishing season only for a
part of three years, and yet hundreds of these men who had not complied with the
requirements of the law, were granted naturalization papers and received their license
to fish. The naturalization certificate being regular in form the officer considered he
was bound to recognize the holder as entitled to a license.

The Commission took sutiieient evidence to establish these facts. It was impossible
for them to incjuire into every case.

When we visited Steveston at the mouth of the Fraser in j\Iay, and therefore before
the fishing season had commenced, we found a busy hive of men almost exelusi\-el3'
Chinese and Japanese, except the overseers. The Chinese engaged in making cans in
the canneries and the Japanese in boat building and otherwise getting ready for the
opening of the fishing season. What was particularly noticeable in this busy throng
was the absence of white men.

This class of Japanese almost without exception come without their families and
are rapidly taking possession of an industry which for national as well as economic
reasons should be retained in the hands of the ^hite population, the actual settlers.
What is wanted and is essential to the welfare of the country is to establish a perman-
ent class of fishermen, householders, who, owning small holdings, may be assisted in
earning their livelihood by having an opportunity of making a few hundred dollars
additional during the fi.shing .season.

As long as the fishing is profitaljle to the fishermen so long will the white nien be
willing to engage in it. As the margin of profit grows less, they will drop out, and the
Japanese who can obtain licenses, who live on less, and are content with smaller
remuneration, will occupy their places. This diplacenient is e\-idenced by the number
of licenses issued. Whether that margin of profit grows less by reason of overcrowding,
depletion of the fisheries, or for any other reason, the tendency is towards the complete
occupation of salmon fishing by Japanese while they continue to be licensed. Prac-
tically none of the Japanese of the fishing class bring their families with them. Thej'
have shown no signs of settling permanently in the countiy or of becoming merged
amongst our people as all the various classes of white men do who are engaged in the
fishing here. They have contributed in part to the present abnormal development of
the industry. The opinions stated by those most interested was that white men are
preferable and that they would not desire to see the industry get under the control of
the Japanese. It is not right that this important industry should fall into the hands of
a class who are foreigners and who do not assist in settling the counti-y with a permanent
class of citizens.

PART 11. COAT BUILDING.

Boat building is and always will be an important industry in British Columbia.
Until a few years ago it was entirely in the hands of Canadians. It has passed largely
into the hands of Japanese, except in the case of one large manufacturing firm where
the work is chiefly done by machinery, and high class pleasure boats, which are
chiefly built by whites. The Japanese make not only their own fishing
boats, but also large numbers for the white fishermen. Formerly small boats were used
almost exclusively on the Fraser, Init within the last few years by reason of the large
increase in the numbers of fishermen crowding on the Fraser, has resulted in large
numbers fishing at the mouth of the Fraser and in the Gulf, for which larger and sea-
worthy boats are required. These of course are more expensive.

The fact is that the Japanese practically control this branch of the business except
as above mentioned. Along the shores and bays from Port Moody to the mouth of the
- Fra.ser many hundreds are engaged in this business.

358 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Boat building is an important adjunct to the fisheries and both are rapidly passing
out oi the hands of Canadians and into the hands of Japanese. This cannot but be
regarded as a very serious matter.

Andrew Linton says : I am a boat builder. I came here in 1884. I learned to be
a shipwright and boat builder in New Brunswick and State of !Maine. I was born in
New Brunswick. The Japanese have interfered with my business. In the first place I
used to build Hat-bottom boats and boats used for logging work and around booms. The
Japanese commenced on those first. I could not compete and had to quit. I then built
a higher class of pleasure boats. They did not affect me there so much. There were
seven or eight firms employing a number of 'men, I can't say how many. I also built
fishing boats. The reduction in price drove me out. I think the boat business would
be better if the Japanese were out of it and we could start apprentices, but now it is
hard to get voung people to take up the trade. They fear competition with Japanese.
The fishermen get their boats for less than they did before, about one-quarter less cost.
■ We never feared competition from outside, that is from a white man's country.

Henry ^Mundon says : I am a boat builder. I have been here four years. I only
employ one man now. I did employ as high as ten. The boat building is being done
too cheaply now and I am not taking fishing boats to build. I can't get my price. Lots
come to me to buy and ask the price. ]My price is 685, and tliey say they can get them
from $60 to W^- The Japanese sell to the whites. I know they have built for the
canneries at S65. Wlien I had ten men emj)loyed 1 paid 82.50 to S3.00 a day. I am
married and have three children. The Japanese get their help cheaper. There is one
sliack where they all live together. The boats I build ought to last seven or eiglit years.
I could have built a lot of boats for fishermen and cannerymen too, but I would not
take them. I built a few for •§75 for cannerymen and lost money on them. I could
have emplo}efl ten men if I had taken contracts of those who .spoke to me. There are
100 being built (by Japanese) near where I am. Last year more were built than this
year. I employed six men last year. The material in my boats cost 847 and 18 days'
work. The Japanese used poorer mateiial. They put in maple ribs. I have seen them
whip sawing lumber. The Japanese can build as good a boat as a white man can for
fishing. They build a cheap boat. I favour the exclusion of Japanese and Chinese. It
was the year before last I employed ten men.

Other witnesses gave evidence to the same effect.

Alfred Wallace carries on boat building on a large scale. His evidence presents
many important features. He says : I run a ship and boat-building establishment and
employ 64 hands. The only way they (the Japanese) affect our bu.siness is they (the
cannerymen) give them the boats to build, and they (the Japanese) guarantee to furnish
them the number of men to fish the boats that year. The canners themselves told me.
There is not more than 3 per cent for pirivat^? individuals. I don't think my trade has
been affected any. We buy the lumber in the rough and manufacture everything our-
selves. We manufacture cheaper than formerly. I have been in business eight years.
They have cheaper labour ; that reduces the price of boats. Last year we built 392
boats ; of these 80 per cent were for the canneries, ^^'e run a union yard exclusively
and pay union wages, 83 to 84 and nine hours per da}' for skilled men. We hire boys
from 81.25 to 82.50 — twelve boys altogether. About 50 per cent of the boats are built
by Japanese. The Japanese have offered their services tome for 10 and 11 cents per
hour; 24 of the men and boys are employed in boat-building; 331-eentsper hour is the lowest
wage I pay to skilled workmen. I think the Japanese are very good mechanics, but
very slow. You can get all the men you waiit, of good skilled men. There is no trouble
about getting white labour. I have never had Japanese working for me. We may have to
have them after awhile — get cheaper men to turn out cheaper articles. By machinery
we can compete. We could not compete if the Japanese had machinery. W^e employ
the men the year round. We have few unskilled labourers. It don't make much differ-
ence to me whether they come or not. My principal customers are the canneries so far
as fishing boats are concerned. We can do the work about 15 jier cent cheaper by
machinery. No one building by hand can compete with machineiy. We keep the staff
st«idy. We build stock boats in winter. All round fi'om Port !Moody to the Fraser

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE I MMia RATION 359

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

River, that is 35 or 40 miles, you will (ind shacks where boats are built by Japanese all
aloiii,' the shore. They cut the timber and rii)-saw it and build lx)at.s wherever voti see
a shack. We build many for the 8keena trade. A boat will last eight years. The
canneries buy new boats to replace the skirt's. I don't want to do anything to interfere
with the hshing business. My principal patrons are cannerjaiien. I think there aie just
as many men building boats to-day as four years ago. It is a different class of boats
to-day. We can compete with them at a profit. I don't say a good profit. If
a company started who employed them we would have to cut wages or shut
tlown. If prices are reduced as much in the next four years as in the last
f(jur yeais, we could not compete at the same wages and cost of material. I
think we have enough Japanese here now. The arrangement with the Japanese
and canneryman gives them an advantage. I can't get any of my boat builders to
go fishing. The canners are our best customers. You will find the Japanese
boat-builders everywhere. The men who build the boats do the fishing. They work*
from dayliglit till dark. One Japanese takes the contract and he is the i-esponsible
party. They are an intelligent race. They may go into this lousiness and if thev do we
will have to get cheap labour, and then I would be opposed to further immigi-ation.
They live in boat houses. Two-thirds of my men are married men. I would not like to
hurt the cannery business. They are my best customers : but I think we ha\e enough
here now. The opinion of canners will n(jt alter mv opinion.

SUMMARY.

The following facts are made clear Ijy the evidence :

Boat builders working without machinery have been drfven out of the emplovnient
of building fishing boats. The wages formerly paid for this class of work was from
§2.. 50 to 83 a day."

The Wallace factory employs 24 hands in boat building of this class, exclusively
white labour, and pay union wages, — men from $3.00 to $4.00 a day for skilled labour-,
and boys $1.2-5 to $2.50 per day, 'and is able to compete by using machinery. The
manager declai'es that he could not compete if Japanese employed machinery. If a
company started who employed Japanese he would have to cut wages or shut down. If
the selling price was reduced in the next four years as much as in the last four years
this factory could not compete at the same wages and cost of material.

All whites engaged in this Inisiness are opposed to further immigration of Japanese.

The fishermen get cheaper fishing boats but lose more than thev gain by competition
of Japanese fishermen.

This industry is a good illustration of the effect of oriental labour. It grew up to
meet the requirements of the trade exclusively by white labour and so flourished, giving
employment to large numbers of men at prices that would enable them to live and sup-
port their families. The Japanese was not a necessity. When he comes, bv reason of
his low standard of living, he is able and has driven out all but the -large machinery-
supplied factory. This factory would not now compete if another started employing
Japanese labour, or if the Japanese employed machinery. That this will take place in
a short time if they continue to come can scarcely be doubted ; and then the same argu-
ment might be presented as is now made in respect of other industries ; — it cannot be
successfully carried on without cheap labour. Of course it cannot if the competition of
cheap labour brings down the price. The cure is to remove the cause ; not more cheap
labour, but less. While cheap labour continues to come in it creates the conditions which
it is said make it necessary.

360

bHpobt of royal commissiox

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

CHAPTER III.— THE LUMBER INDUSTRY.

PART I. — .SAWMILLS.

The Japane.se are employed to a very considerable extent in the lumbering business.
Tlieir proportion to whites and Chinese employed will appear from the following table : —

Mill.

Whites.

Chemamus Mill . .

M (in camp)

Hastings ilill

.1 (in camp)

Roval Citv Mills, Xew Westminster

The Moodieville Sawmill Co

Sayward Mills, Victoria j...

Munsie Mill.>, Victoria

Haslani Mills, Xanaimo [

North Pacific L. Co

Robertson & Hackett, Vancouver

Royal City Mills, Vancouver ,

Brunette Mill, near Vancouver !

Shields' Mill, ICamloops j

Yale Mill Company — Head office at Rossland controlling mills at;
Rossland, KoKson, Xakusp. Cascade, Roche Creek, Deadwood

HUlyer's Mill, Nelson .
Buchanan's Mill, Kaslo.

Chinese.

12H

164

245

180

30-40

60-70

1C8

200

3-4

as cooks

10-50

Japanese.

Probably the best idea as to whether the Japanese are necessary for this business,
and as to whether there ai-e sufficient in the countrj- to meet the demand, maj' be
gathered from the evidence of the employers. As most of these witnesses ha^■e been
quoted from at length, in dealing with this question as it atfeots Chinese immigration
reference may be had to that e\-idence.

Edmund James Palmer, manager of the Victoria ^Manufacturing Company's mill at
Chemainus, that exports nearly as much as all the other mills at British Columbia, says :
We first employed Japanese about a year ago last February. I never employed them in
the mill except three months ago. I let them a contract for grading the road. I know
the Port Blakeley mill on Puget Sound, Washington, employs Japanese. All the other
mills there employ whites.

Q. Wjiat do you say as to the Japanese ? — A. I think there are plenty of them
here. I would say that all further immigration of Chinese or Japanese should
be prohibited. What we ha^•e here now I think quite sufficient, and I think we can
gradually work white labour in until we would soon have sufficient white laboui- in the
country to answer all demands.

The Japanese are more inclined to adopt our mode of living and more inclined to
spend money in doing so.

Richard H. Alexander, manager of Hastings ilill, Vancouver, says : We employ
ninety-three Japanese, in trucking and piling lumber. They are paid from 90 cents to
Sl-25 a day. The Japanese are all in inferior positions, with the exception of the lath
mill, at which there are six or seven of them at the cut-off saws and trimmer. We first
engaged them twelve years ago.

(The evidence of this witness is fully gi\-en in Part I, Chap. XII.

Robert Charles Ferguson, manager of the Royal City Mills, Vancouver, which
forms one of the three mills under the control of the British Columbia ^Nlills and Trad-
ing Company; the other two being the Hastings Mill and the Royal City Mills nf Xew

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRA TION 361

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Westminster, says : We employ 150 men, of whom (iO are Japanese. Over half the
Japanese are paid 90 cents a day. Three Japanese ha\e charge of saws. They are
satisfaeti>ry. We get as much done as if run by a white man. We jiay a Japanese
.sawyer 61.2.') a day. We pay white labour of the .same class (sawyers) .i?2. 23. If no
more Chinese anfl Japanese were admitted I would be satisfied for the present time, but
I don't think we could do in the future because the Jai:)anese are spreading out more.
That is they are going- over the country and going into business for themselves and are .
employed more largely. I don't think we could get white labour to take their place at
present. I don't see why Japanese should not be able to run the higher class of
machines. I would not care to run my mill with Japanese altogether. Certainly I
would employ cheaj) labour all through if competition made it necessary. In handling
the machines the Japanese can handle as much as the white man. If it came to hea^v
woi'k the white man might be worth a little more, not over 15 per cent.

White men could not live on the same wages we pay Cliinese and Japanese. Our
firm tried to take a couple <;)f carloads of people from the east at one time. We brought
them out by rail with the usual result, they tried to beat their fares and left the employ-
ment of the comjiany. They were bushmen and loggers. The lumber industry is
languishing here at the present time, partly because of the foreign trade being dull and
a dullness in the North-west market. Our trade last year was hurt by the labour unions
here demanding higher prices for labour in the first part of the year. I should judge
the employment of Chinese and Japanese have an effect on labour associations. We
have a great deal of diHiculty getting men to work during the fishing season. I would
soonei' employ all white labour if I could get it.

R(.)l)ert Jardine, the local manager of the Royal City Planing jNIills at New West-
minster, who employs 29 Japanese out of a total of 266 men, says ; The Japanese came
in in 1897 ; prior to that Chinese were used. In 1897 we Irad a number of white men
employed that tilled the position.s now held by -lapanese, and they left and went fishing
and we were compelled to get whatever labour we could. Pi'obalily eight or ten left
and more left gradually. I would as soon employ white men at $37 or SSiS a month as
Japanese at -SI a day. It is not because of the dift'erence in wages, but the difficvUty
in getting men, that we employ Japanese. We require cheap labour and the Chinese is
the kind we have. We have to have cheap labour or shut our business down, because
two-thirds of our cut is shipped east, to the North-west Territories, Manitoba, Ontario,
Quebec, and as far east as Halifax. If we had to employ all white labour at flora $35
to $40 a month, it would amount to a thousand dollars a month or over. We would
have to pay 60 per cent more. We don't feel tlie competition so much. We have a
«. price list lietween the different owners. It is not always adhered to. We only use 29
Japanese. I sujipose the employment of Chinese and Japanese, and that white labour
has to compete with them, diies keep white laliour out to a certain extent. (.S'""'' further
evidence of this witness Part I, Chap. XIII.)

Henry Depeneier, manager of the North Pacific Lumber Company, that emjiloys
46 Jajianese out of a total of 91 men, the rest being white, says: The mill had been shut
down for ten years on account of the depression in the lumber trade here. We com-
menced "within the last year. We emphy Japanese because of the 1 6 in the mill thej^
do as much as white men. Two white men will do as much as three Japanese. I pre-
fer white men. There are sufficient Japanese here now. In the east, Ottawa Valley,
we had a whole mill outfit at what we pay the Japanese. Now wages are higher in the
east. AVe had labour from Quebec at $1 a day and they boarded themselves. It is
higher now. We never tried to bring that labour here. They could not come at that
rate of wages. They are better than Japanese. We could pay them 50 per cent more.
I think they would be brought here if the .lapanese were not here. They can do more
anywhere about the mill. At piling lumber the Japanese do about as much in a day as
whites. We can produce lumber nmch cheaper here than east. They can work it up
more closely there than'here. They work up e%erything there. All of it can be sold.
It was not a labour (juestion at all. It was a (piestion of finding a profitable market.
'We paj- white labourers .SI. 50 to .$1.75 : skilled $2.50 to $3.85 ; two boys 18 years old
$1 a day. We pay the Japane.se $1 a day, and three $1.25 a day.

362 BE PORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902"

John G. Woods, superintendent of the Moodyville Sawmill CV>nipMny, which
employs 110 men, of whom 40 are Japanese, says: We pay white men from 830 a
month and board up to 8140 for foremen ; Japanese 90 cents and board to 81.25 and
board. Board costs 35 cents a day. In most positions they are as iiood as whites.
They are behind machines and keep the machines clear. The Japanese run machines,
namely, the edger and trimmer ; one edger and five trimmers run by Japanese. We
formerly had white men do it. He runs the machine as well as a white man and we
keep him there. I don't see why a Japanese should not do anything there is to do
about a sawmill. I very much prefer white men if other conditions are equal. • The
competition is as keen as the mills can stand and keep afloat I guess we could fill the
positions with white men if the Japanese were out — get them here in the countrv, but
would have to pay them more. We would have to pay whites 815 a month more. If
we had to par 8700 or 8800 more than we do now we would have to shut down. I
would close down so far as I am concerned rather than employ Asiatic labour. I have
had large experience here in mills. For the last live years the Moodvville Mill has just
about held level without the owners getting one cent interest or di\idends. The pro-
perty has been kept up. Our position is good for foreign markets but not for local trade.
We do simply a foreign trade. We ship to China and Japan.

James W. Hackett, of the firm of Kobertson it Hackett, that have a sawmill and
sash and door factory. They employ 100 men in and about the mill and factory, of
whom 20 are Japanese. Only white men are employed in the camps. Their market is
local and east. He says : We tried to run our mill without Japanese. We found that
it wa.s necessary to have a certain amount of cheap labour. We had' to compete with
others who had cheap labour : besides cheap white labour is very unsteady. You can
get white labour for 81.50 a day, but they won't stay with you. If others had employed
exclusively white labour we would. We don't employ Chinese. The export mills have
a good deal to do in fixing the local price. What they do not export they sell cheap.
The local market would be better without the export mills. The more there is shipped
for foreign markets the worse it is for local trade, because every million feet leaves a lot
rejected which comes in competition with the local trade. Our white men are a very
sober class of men. Some kinds of work Japanese will do as well as whites. I think
it would take as many whites to do the work of Japanese. It would make a diflerence
of 824 a day. The greater portion of our labour is skilled labour. Public opinion on
the Chinese and Japanese question is very strong. Last year I paid out 850,282 in and
about the mill and factory. Of this 83,282 was paid to Japanese and 847,000 to white.s.
I also paid to whites in the camp 824,125. I would have had to pay 81,640 more to
whites if I had employed all whites and no Japanese. Our realty and plant is worth
about 8100,000. We have a good class of labour in this country, better than in most
countries.

Andrew Haslam, saw mill owner at Nanaimo, said : I think the Japanese are
stronger physically than the Chinese. Japanese can do harder wiirk than the Chinese.
I am certainly in favour of employing white men. I think myself the Japanese
will finally be the keener competitors of the white men. I do not think anyone will
deny that the Japanese are a progressive people and have advanced more rapidly
of late years than any other nation ; but on the other hanfl their wants are so few
and their habits so simple they can live very well for a small sum of money, for such
a sum that a white person could not possibly live on : and to bring an unlimited
immber of these people here to enter into competition with our white people, I do
not think is in the interests of the country by any means. It is a i|uestion to
my mind whether it is wise to encourage immigration beyond what can find profitable
employment in the country. I have heard very little of the Japanese question here. I
do not think it would be wise to persist in any regulation that would tend to irritate
the Japanese people at the present time. As far as I know of the business of British
Columbia, and I have had an opportunity of studying it for 35 years, all I can say is
that the white men got less wages Ijefore the Japanese and Chinese were in the country
than they did after thev were in here.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 363

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Lewis A. Lewis, manager of the Brunette Sawmill Comiiany, New Westminster,
pays out in wages in connection with his sawmill, planing mill and logging camp annu-
ally $141,937 ; for white labour, $119,773, and the balance to Japanese and Chinese ;
that is about 85 per cent to whites and 15 per cent to orientals. He employs in all
168 white men, 78 Japanese and 10 Chinese. He says: The average wage of the
Japanese is $1.00, Chinese, 90 cents, and white labour $35 to $100 a month. Have had
Japanese four or five years, but not as many as now. Had 10 or 1 2 more last year than
the year before, using more men in 1900 than in 1899. The business has increased, but
the number of white men is about tlie same. The increase has been 10 or 12 additional
Japanese. The Japanese have gradually taken the place of white men — in some
places they have. Some of our tally men are Japanese. He could do it as well as
white. The Japanese have taken the place of white men in piling lumber. We paid
$35 to $40 a month. We now pay Japanese $1 a day of 26 days. That is instead of
$35 to $40, we pay $26. I don't think a Japanese will Jo as much work as a white
man. They don't understand. The Japanese don't understand English. I w(juld as
soon pay a white man $35 a month as a Japanese $26 in certain kinds of work. There was
no advantage in taking on Japanese instead of white men as to that work. In trucking
rough lumber out of the yard, Japanese are cheaper. A.s far as I can recollect when the
Japanese difl not do it, the Chinese did. Our market is all the way from here to
(,>uebec. Our principal ■ market is the North-west Territory, Manitoba, Ontario and
•Quebec. When it goes east of Winnipeg it is large special timber for bridge building.
We export to Glasgow, Scotland and to Japan. It is not regular, it is incidental. It
would not be a tenth of our business. The Chinese are engaged in piling lumber in the
yard. No Chinese work in the mill ; some of the .Japanese do. Thev w-ork behind the
edger. None run the edger. None of the Japanese do any skilled work ; one of them
uses a trimmer saw for cutting ofl", for the last year or so. We formerly paid a white
man $40 a month, and we pay the Japanese $1.35 per day, say $32.50 per month. He
can't do the work as well. He can do as much. Tlie man at $40 could get his job
back at the price. I have resided here fourteen years. Japanese were not in the saw-
mills then ; white men and Chinamen did the work.

I don't know of any Japanese or Chinese with families. The white men are, I
tliink, mostly married. We give preference to married men. I don't think we could
get along w-ithoxit the Japanese in the lumber business. We could get along without
the Chinese. I am speaking from the lumberman's standpoint. Labour is short during
the summer time till after the fishing season is over. White labour is short during
these months. There is abundance of white labour during the winter months. If you
give Japanese employment in winter thej' will stay in summer. Our white men stay
with us in summer. We supply lumber and boxes to the canneries. This year it may
be $50,000 if a big run. Last year it was $30,000 to $40,000. Two other mills also
supply the canneries. The business is in a fair condition, but it could be better. The
last three years have been better. Foi' eight previous years we did not make money.
We get a special order and we have to get out special lengths. British Columbia can
fix the price for the east, but there is such keen competition among the mills that it cuts
the price. If you want half a dozen men, Japanese, you can get them on short notice
by speaking to a boss Japanese, same as to boss Chinamen. There is very strong com-
petition in British Columbia. The prices are below what would give a reasonable profit
if we had to employ white labour.

Alexander Shields, manager of the Kamloops Sawmill, employs 9 Japanese out of
a total of 42 men. He says l We have some difficulty in keeping whites. We shut
down for a while and the men were then discharged and when we started we brought in
Japanese. The whites were not invited to come back. The management is in favour
of further restriction. I would restrict it so no more would come in. I think there are
enough here. In the logging camps we employ about 100 men, all whites. We prefer
them. We w(.iuld not have Japanese or Chinese. I think the Japanese are more desir-
able as a class than the Chinamen. I don't think any serious loss would result if no
more came in. In the sawmill business it is necessary to have cheap labour. W^e come

364 ■ REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

into competition with the coast mills. Our management would favour no more coming
in.

Charles Hillyer, of Nelson, employs 40 men in his sawmill and sash and door
factory, and pays for unskilled labour from 82. "JS to S2.50 and for skilled labour 83,
•S3. 50 and 84 a day. The market is local and for the mines. He savs : I favour
further restriction. If am' restriction can be put on it ought to be done. In 1 .5 years
there wont be a white man working in a sawmill. If I compete with the coast mills I
•will have to put my white men out and put in Chinese. I will have to put in Chinese.
I will have to put in Chinese and Japanese within two years.

Geo. A. Buchanan, sawmill owner of Kaslo, employs from 10 to 50 men, according
to the season ; no Japanese or Chinese, except occasionally as cooks. He says : I am
not in favour of putting restriction upon anybody as far as I am concerned. I think
all kinds of men should be free to come and go and make their homes anvwhere it suits
them. God made of one blood all nations of the earth.

William C. Dickinson says : I was bookkeeper and yard foreman in the Roval Citv
Mill. I had from 25 to 35 Japanese under me. In heavy work I would rather have
one white man than two Japanese. I could have done the whole work with 20 or 25
white men. I favour restriction to keep out Chinese and Japanese. Japanese compete
more keenly. I remember when only one Japanese was employed there. In the last
two years they have increased. They are increasing more rapidly than in the past. The
Japanese range from 50 cents to SI. 10, the average was about 80 cents. The white
jnen struck and the Japanese took their places, — I should say about ten who are still
in their places. The above is the wages before the cut. $10 was taken off my wages.
The tally men and markers were succeeded bj- Japanese. I don't agree that whites are
getting higher wages by reason of Japanese being employed. Eight or nine years ago
there was only one Japanese, and the, whites are not getting more wages now than then.
I don't think their wages would be higher if the Japanese and Chinese were turned out.

AMElllCAX MILLS.

It will be con^■enient here to refer to the statements obtained from lumbermen in
Washington State and compare the wages on either side of the line in this industry.

The Stetson and Post Mill Company, Seattle, employ 125 men; no Chinese or
Japan,.ese.

Q. What is the average wage for unskilled labour here ? — A. The average wage will
be about $2 a day for unskilled labour. It ranges from SI. 75 to S2.25 or $2.50 a day.
Sawyers are paid from S3. 50 to S-t a day.

W. H. Perry, the assistant general manager of IMoran Brothers, who operate a
sawmill at Seattle and employ about 100 men, stated that the average wage paid to
common labour was $2 a day, that being the minimum. The men who operate the
planers they are to a certain degree skilled labour and are paid $2.25, S2.50 and 82.75.

Theodore Ludgate, a Canadian, who has recently engaged in the sawmill business
at Seattle, and employs 150 men in and alwut the mill, .says ;

Q. What is the average wage for unskilled labour ] — A. The lowest wage we pay
is $1.75 a day to roustabouts, men who are here to-day and are to be found some place
else next week. A great mam- men we pay $2 a day to ; $1.75 a day is our cheapest
labour and it runs from that up to $5 for our filers and sawyers. The filers get $5 a
day. The planer foremen get $3.50 a day and the planer feeders get $2.25 a day. No
mills in the city or neighbourhood employ Japanese labour. The only mill employing
Jajjanese labour is the Pt)rt Blakelev mill, nine or ten miles across the Sound from here.

A. S. Martin, secretary of the Puget Sound Sawmill and Shingle Company, Fair-
haven, Washington, said : We are employing 265 liands. We have 110 men employed
in logging camps. W'e never employ Chinese or Japanese. They are only employed at
one mill, at Port Blakeley. Mininnun wages for unskilled labour is 81.50 per diem.
There are abt)ut ten men working here for that wage. At present 82 is our mininunn.
Wages run up tt) 85 and 80 ; avei'age, 83. 33?, per diem. We make a specialty of cedar
shingles, having the largest cut of any mill in the world.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 365

SESSIONAL_PAPER No. 54

W. T. Harris, of AVliiitcoin Fall Mill Company, at "NMiatconi, AVashington, savs :
AAe eni|>loy about 75 men. Xo Chinese or Japanese. A\'e buy our logs. I think no
Japanese or Chinese are employed in the logging camps. AVages for orriinary laljour
are a» low as SI. 50 per day, but for skilled labour run up as high as .$150 per month.
Board is worth from $4 to $4.50 a week. The proportion of unskilled labour employed
by us is two-thirds, including some machine attendants. We ship some of our product
into Canada. Our chief market is in the east. A\'e experience no difficulty in getting
common or skilled labour. Cllinese are not employed in Wliatcom at all. Don't see
them here at all. The population of Whatcom is about 10,000. The principal industry
of AVhatcom is lumbering. There are no canneries. The coal mines are se\'eral miles
out from town. They employ all white labour.

AA'. Shei'man, of the Bellingham Bay Improvement Company, Washington, said :
AVe employ about 350 men. No Chinese or Japanese. We engage in export lumber
business to South America, Australia, Hong Kong and Japan, and also ship to Sau
Francisco antl east of the Rockies. There are no Chinese or Japanese employed on the
Bellingham Bay and British Columbia railway. The average wage paid to unskilled
labour is from SI. 75 to $2 per day, and to skilled labour up to $4 per day; a\erage,
S^.SO to S3.75. There is no difficulty in getting labour. We buy our logs.

WAGES OX THE AMERICAN AND CANADIAN SIDE COMPARED.

CANADIAN MILLS.

Cheniainua Mills (Ch'-mainxs, B.C.).

Japanese — $1 to SI. 25.

Chinese — SI to SI. 25 and one at 81.50.

Whites — S2 for unskilled labour, and from S2.25 up for skilled labour.

The Hastings Mill ( Vancouver).

Japanese — 90 cents to $1.25.

Whites — $40 to $45 a month, and in the woods the whites received from $2.25 to
$2.50 a day.

Tlie Royal City Mills ( Vancouver).

Japanese — From 90 cents to $1 for common labour ; sawyers, $1.25 to $1.50.
Whites— Labour : unskilled, from $1.75 to $2.50 ; skilled, $2.50 to $3.50.

The Brunette Sawmill Company ( Neir Westminster).

Japanese — 95 cents to $1.25 ; average $1.

Chinese — 90 cents.

White labour— $35 to $100 a month.

The Royal City Planing Mills at New Westmhister.

Japanese — 85 cents to $1.40 ; average $1.

Chinese — 85 cents to $1.35 per day ; average SI.

Whites — $35 to $125 per month, and $1.75 to $3.40 a day for skilled labour.

AMERICAN MILLS.

Tlie Stetson and Post Mill Company, Seattle.

Japanese — None employed.

Whites — S2 for unskilled labour. It ranges from $1.75 to $2.50 a day. Sawyers
are paid from $3.50 to $4 a day.

366 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOS

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

Moran Brothers, Seattle.

Japanese — None employed.

White.s — Average wage for common labour •'?2 a day, that being the minimum.

Theodore Lndgate, Seattle.

Whites — 81.75 i.s the cheapest labour employed, and up to §5 for filers and sawyers.
Planer foreman §3.50, planer feeders 82.50. A great many of the common labourers
are paid 82 a daj*.

Japanese — None employed.

Puget Sound Sairmi/i and Shiuffle Company, Fairhaveii, Washington.

Japanese — None employed.

Whites — Minimum wage for unskilled labour 81.50 per diem to 82. This company
employs 265 hands. At present 82 is their minimum.

The Whati-om Fal/r' Mill Company, Whatcom, Washington.

Japanese — None employed.

Whites — Lowest §1.50 per day : for skilled labour as high as $150 a month.

I'he Jlel/iiigham Bay Improvement Company.

Japanese — None employed.

Whites — Average unskilled labour 81.75 to 82 a day. For skilled labour up to
.84 a day.

SrMM.\RV.

In dealing with this indvistry it was found impossible to limit the evidence and
summary to the Chinese and Japanese respectively, and for a fuller statement of facts
and evidence reference may be had to a former chapter where the bearing of Chinese
immigration upon this industry is dealt with, which in connection with what is here
said will gi^-e a fair idea of the present condition of the industry.

In 1900 there was exported from British Columbia eightv-four million feet of lumber
bv six mills, the Chemainus 38,365,000 ; Hastings 23,873',000 ; Moodvville 19,312,000 :
The Royal City Planing Mills of New Westminster 1,312,000; The" Northern Pacific
Lumber Company 659,000, and the Canadian Pacific Lumber Company 687,000.

It will be .seen that of the total export the first three mills exported ^H million.s of
the 84 millions. The following statement shows the destination :

T-, . • . • Total Exports from

Destmation. -g c. MUls.

Great Britain and Continent 25,043,613

Australia 33,936,773

Africa 5,887,385

Peru 4,554,350

Chili 3,858,830

■Other South American Ports 327,995

China and Japan 9,463,501

U.S. Atlantic Port ■ 1,061,405

Mexico 76,701

Total 84,210,553

The exporting mills compete with the other mills in the local market.

ox CHIXESIC AXD JAPAXESE IMiaORATIOX 367

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The Chemaiuus Mill exports nearly as much as all the other mills together, and
employs 5(5 Japanese about the mill and 30 in the camp. The manager of this large
concern stated that they had never employed Japanese in the mills until three months
ago. In the camps they are employed for grading. He thought there were plenty of
them here now, and stated that in his opinion all further inmiigration of Chinese or
Japanese should be prohibited. He said : What we have here now I think quite sutti-
cieiit, and I think we can gradually work white labour in until we would soon have
sutticient wliite labour in the country to answer all demands.

The manager ot the next largest exporting mill, the Hastings Mill, that ein]iloj-s
164 whites and 9.3 Japanese, explained that they had always had in a mill a certain
proportion of cheap labour ; in the earlier days Indians ; they gradually got off from
working in the mill and were replaced by Chinese : and on the other hand, on account
of the strong feeling against Chinese, they discontinued them, anfl have since been using
Japanese. It was ten or twelve years since Japanese were first employed. He further
stated that the Indians were not crowded out by either the Chinese or Japanese. The
Indian camp was removed. They lived on the other side of the inlet, and it was dilfi-
cult for them to go over to the mill in time, and during the construction of the railway
got more profitable work with the contractors. The Indians were paid 75 cents a day
and board, equal to $1 a da}'. The Chinamen will go along like a machine and do the
.same work every day until night at the same work, but the Japanese has got more spirit,
and if he sees the machine crowding him he will put on a spurt and keep the machine
clear, whereas the Chinaman will let the machine block up, and he will want another
man to help him. The Japanese ma_y not work as steadily but he works quicker, and
is better for the work than the Chinaman in that way. Neither Chinese nor Japanese
are used in the woods. They are not suited for it. This witness declined to express an
opinion as to restiiction on Japanese immigration.

He further stated that he desired to confine himself to its effect on the lumber
trade, and said : The question is this, — we have always had a certain amount of cheap
labour in connection with the operation of the lumber industrj'. It is quite possible
that white labour would be generally profitable if we could get it under the same con-
ditions. If the Japanese are to be replaced with white labour it will mean an increase
in our expenses, — an increase in the cost of production of the lumber, but as it is at
present the white men cannot work at the rate of wages that the Japanese do. Now,
if the Japanese is replaced by white labour at a higher rate of wages on the industry on
the manufacture of lumber, there can be but one result, — we would either have to raise
the price of the article produced, or shut down the manufacture altogether. In our
case the article manufactured has to be exported ; it has to meet competition in the
markets of the world with the same commodities from other places.

The superintendent of the Moody^'ille Sawmill, the next largest exporter, stated
that thej' employed 40 Japanese out of a total of 41(t men. This mill is situated across
Burrard Inlet from Vancouver. They are paid from 90 cents to 81.25 and board. The
board costs 35 cents a day. In most positions they are declared to be as good as whites.
White men are paid from iJSO to $140 a month. This would make a difference of about
8600 per month in wages if whites were employed instead of Japanese, and the witness
stated if they had to pay 8700 or 8800 per month more then they do now, they would
have to shut down, but that so far as he was concerned rather than employ Japanese in
responsible positions he would close down. This mill exports over four millions to
China and Japan, out of a total of nine and a half millions.

The Hastings Mill, and the Royal City Planing jNIill of New Westminster, under
the same general management as the Hastings Mill, exported the balance of the nine
and a half millions that went to Japan and China in 1900.

The local manager of the Royal City Mills of New Westminster says that the
Japanese came in in lcS97, but prior to that Chinese were used, but it is not because of
tiie diii'erence in wages but the ditficulty in getting men that they emplo)' Japanese ;
that they require cheap labour and the Chinese is the kind the}' have. They employ 57
Chinese and 29 Japanese and 180 white men. He further stated that they have to have
cheap labour or shut down their business, and the reason given is that two-thirds of the cut

368 RI-:POHT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

is shipped to the North-west Territories, ^Manitoba, Ontario, C^uebec, and as far east as
Halifax ; that if thej' had to emploj' all white labour at from .S35 to 8-tO a month it would
amount to over a thousand dollars a mouth, and would be 60 per cent more than the
cost of the labour of Chinese and Japanese now employed. He stated that he would as
soon pay a white man $37 or §38 a month as a Japanese $1 a day. He further stated
that they did not feel the competition so much because they had a price list between
the different owners. He thou<;ht that the employment of Chinese and Japanese kept
white labour out to some extent.

The manager of the Brunette ISaw-mill Commany at Mew Westminster that employs
78 Japanese, being the largest number employed by any mill except the Hastings mill,
stated that thev had employed Japanese for the last four or live years but not in such
large numbers as at present. That the Japanese had gradually taken the place of the
white men. They pay the Japanese §1 a day or S26 a month, instead of S3.5 or •'?4.5 a
month formerly paid to white men. He did not think that the Japanese did as much
work as the white man, and stated that he would as soon pay a white man .§35 a month
as a Japanese 826 in certain classes of work, but that in certain other classes of work
the Japanese was cheaper, and finally added that he did not think they could get along
without the Japanese in the lumber business, but that they could get along without the
Chinese. This gentlemen spoke purely from the lumberman's standpoint.

The next largest emplo'^'er of Japanese labour is the Royal City mills of Vancouver
who employ 60 Japanese, 11 Chinese and 90 white men. This case affords a fair
illustration of what applies to nearly all the mills where Japanese are employed. The
proportion given must not be understood as indicating the number of Japanese and'
unskilled white labour employed, the fact being that very little if any unskilled white
labour is employed at these mills. The Chinese and Japanese practically fill all tlie
positions of unskilled labour and have almt>st entirely displaced white men and Indians
in these positions. The manager of this mill stated that they paid the Japanese 90 cents
a day as common labourers and ■§1.2.5 a day as sawyers, three Japanese being employed
in that capacity. It should be noticed here that the Japanese receive 90 cents a day
without board whereas at the Moodyville mill they are paid 90 cents a day and boarded.
The manager stated that he would be satisfied for the present if no more Chinese or
Japanese were admitted, but thought that there might be diiBculty in future because
the Japanese are spreading out over the country and are going into business for them-
selves and are employed more largely. He did not think that white labour could be
got to take their places at present. He thought that the Japanese would in time be
able to run a higher class of machine, and declared that he would emjiloy cheap labour
all through if he found it necessary.

The Northern Pacific Lumber Company employ 46 Japanese and 4.3 whites, no
Chinese. The manager stated that they employed Japanese because out of the total
number 16 do as much as white men. In other classes of work two wliite men will do
as nnich work as three Japanese. He preferred white men and thought there wei-e
enough Japanese here now.

The Robinson and Hackett Company of Vancou\er employ 20 Japanese. The
manager stated that they tried to run the mill without Japanese, but found that they
had to have a certain amount of cheap labour to compete with others who had cheap
labour, and that if others would employ white labour exclusively, their company was
willing to do so. They do not employ Chinese.

The proprietor of the lumber mill at Xanaimo, employs 9 Japanese, 13 Chinese and
39 white men. He pays a total monthly wage of •?4,3.50, of which .?140 only is paid to
Japanese, $368 to Chinese and •'?3,845 to whites. This gentleman ran his mill for 1 7
years with white labour exclusively, until two years ago. The cause of the change as
stated by him was that the jirofits were ^wetting so small that he could not afford to pay
the white men for outside work, that is work apart from handling the machines ; that
there was an increased cost of everything that enters into the production of lumber, and
that the selling price has remained the same for the last four or five years, and tliat
owing to American lumber coming in free, they could only raise the price so that the
American lumber could not be sold. The market is purely local, Nanaimo and vicinity.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE I MM H! I! A TION 369

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

He said tliat Americau lumber did not come to Naiiaimo, but tliat it competed with
other mills, and those mills took the trade that he otherwise woidd have got. The
reiuedv he suggested was the admission of mill supplies free of dutv and in tliat case he
would only employ white men. He was in favour of employing white men and in the
interests of the country, would choose them. He spoke very fa\'oui-ably of the Swedes
and Norwegians as a desii'able class of immigrants for mill work, and expressed the
opinion that we had a sufficient supply of Japanese and Chinese here now, and did not
think any serious inconvenience would accrue to his business if no more were allowed to
come in. He thought there were enough in the country for some time to come. He
further stated that lie thought the Japanese were the keenest competitors of the white
man ; that a few years ago white men were getting out timber for Mexico ; that is now
done by Japanese. They contract for it themselves, several cargoes each year ; that
they more readil_y fall into our methods and habits ; they are not as steady as the
Chinese, and he did not know if they would make better citizens. He added that as
long as the timber is in the country it is an asset, and unless we got out of it something
commensurate with its value we lose it. He added that mills (in the Sound employ
white labour exclusively, except the Blakeley mill which employs .300 Japanese.

At the Kamloops sawmill, 9 Japanese out of a total of 42 men are employed. The
manager thought Japanese more desirable as a class than the Chinese, but did not think
any serious loss woulfl result if no more came in.

No Japanese are employed at the Sayward mills and Munsie mills at Victoria, nor
by the Yale mill company, which controls the mills at Robson, Nakusp, Cascade, Roche
Creek, Deadwood and Rossland, employing 200 men, all whites, with three or four
Chinese as cooks ; no Japanese are employed at Hillyer's mill, at Nelson, or at Buchan-
an's mill at Kaslo.

The result of the examination of this industry shows that about -500 Japanese, a.s
far as we can ascertain, are employed therein. These have largely taken the place of
Chinese within the last few years. In some employments in and about the mill it is
said that they will do as much work as a white man. One manager stated that ll>
Japanese out of the 40 emploj'ed would do as much work as an equal number of white
men, and that the balance was in the proportion of about i white to 3 Japanese. It
will be seen, therefore, that the difterence in cost between tlie emploj'ment of white labour
and Japanese is not the difference in wages paid to each, but the difference in the value
of their work. This latter sum it is difficult to estimate with accuracy, but approxima-
tely it may be stated to be from two-fifths to a half of the difference in wages ; that is,
that there is a saving to the mill owner of from two-fifths to one-half of the difterence in
wages between what is paid to a Japanese and what would have to be paid to white
men. If only white men were employed in the above instance the saving would be .$8,
not ^20. This probably expresses the view of the majority who favour cheap labour,
but it must not be foi'gotten that some managers of large e.vperience insist that white
labour is as cheap in the long run as Japanese or Chinese, but it is not to be had at the
present time, and that the reason of scarcity of white labour is because of the presence
of the Chinese and Japanese, which has a tendency to keep out the desired class of white
labour.

An examination of the conditions of this industry ou the American side shows that
no Japanese are employed in the mills there, with one exception, and that is at Port
Blakeley where they were first employed last year.

The average wage paid for unskilled labour is from ^1 .lb to $2. In one instance
a few men were employed at $1.50 per day, but the largest proportion are paid $'2, and
from that up to $.3..50 and 14 for skilled labour. There is no difficulty there as far as
we could ascertain in obtaining abundance of white labour at these wages. There is a
large export trade from the Sound, amounting to over 1.56,000,000 feet last year, and a
still larger cut for local and eastern trade. It is proper to observe that the only mill
that employs Japanese labour is a large exporting mill.

We are of opinion that if no more Japanese come in, having regard to the number
that are now in the country, that there are sufficient for the present I'equirements, and
for some years to come, and that the change from Japanese to white labour would take
54—24

370 JEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

place i;raduallv and without any serious loss to the business. As this industry is one
of the few that gives employment the year round, it is of great importance that it should
give employment to white labour, and so build up a permanent ccsmmunity.

P.VliT II. .SHIXCLE BOLTS, MIXINT; TIMBER AND COliDWOOD.

While the Japanese are not engaged to any extent in the shingle mills as the
Chinese are, they have crowded out the Chinese, the white men and the Indians to a
very large extent as labourers in getting out shingle bolts, mining timljer and cordwood ;
although as yet they are not employed to any large extent in the lumlier camps.

John Murray, provincial timber agent, says that on the coast the larger percentage
of cutting shingle bolts is now done by JNIongolians. Ten years ago they did very little.
The same thing applies to cordwood. The Mongolians monopolize it now. The wood
business is done by the Chinese and the bolt business by Japanese. It is difficult to say
how many are eiij;aged in the business. It would run up into the hundreds.

W. H. Ellis, pro\ incial immigration agent, says : I visited the cordwood camps on
Main Island in the latter part of February. Several hundreds of Japanese are engaged
in cutting cordwood on this and adjacent islands, chiefly for canneries and steamer
companies. It is delivered f.o.b. on the scows at si. 80 to §2 a cord. I am informed that
the contractors make little profit at these figures, and wages paid employees must be
very small. The Japanese engaged in the work are principally from the Fraser River
and owing to the small run of salmon last year they were in destitute circumstances at
the close of the season. On their arrival at Main Island to commence work, they were
without supplies and subsisted for some time on clams and thistle roots and whatever
came and tish they could secure. The frequent heavy rains during the winter prevents
continuous work. It would be impossible for white men to cut cordwood at thi^ price
and make very ordinary wages. The Japanese live in cedar shacks, sleep in bunks,
ranged in tiers, and altogether have a wretched existence.

Andrew Haslam, carrying on a large lumber business at Xanaiino, said : I think
mvself that the Japanese will be the keenest competitors of the white men. A few
vevrs ago white men were getting out timber for Mexico and tliat is now done by
Japanese. They contract f jr it themselves, — several cargoes each year.

C. Uchida, a Japanese contractor for shingle bolts, says : I contract to get out
bolts, $2.05 per cord delivered on the scows. I pay $2 per cord and get 5 cents and
what I make on supplies. The men do not have to buy in mj-^ store ; they can buy in
any other place. I take out about three thousand cords a year. We employ all
Japanese, 36 men in the camp. There is only one family out there. Japanese have
wives and children in Japan to whom they send money. Single men send very little money
home. I buy groceries at the wholesale stores. I keep store and buj- $2,000 a month ;
8360 a month goes into camp. I supply them with overalls and working clothes. I
buy some from white men and some from Chinese. The white men do not get out
shingle bolts.. The 36 men in camp are not naturalized. I am not a British subject.

Edward H. Heaps, a shingle manufacturer, says : We employ in camps on contract
about 80 getting out^ bolts. We let contracts to Japanese, Chinese and whites. The
Japanese contractors employ Japanese, the Chinese employ Chinese, and the whites
employ Japanese and Chinese. Ninety per cent would be Japanese and Chinese. We
pay out $5,000 a month for eight months, $40,000 besides the factory wages. The
division of wages would be the following : —

To Chinese and Japanese for bolts $36,000

Japanese and Chinese in the mill 8,000

Total $44,000

Whites in the mill $10,000

For Iwlts 4,000

Total to whites $14,000

Oy CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMWRATION 371

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

The Japanese and Chinese are paid #3 to !?! paid to the wliites.

Robert Jardine, the manager of the Roj'al City Planing Mills at New Westminster,
who manufactures also a large (puintity of shingles, says : We don't use shingle bolts.
We cut them from the log and so we can carry on the shingle business without Japanese,
because we get out ours all by white men.

HOW THIS AFFECTS FARMERS AND OTHEliS.

James Thomas Smith, a farmer from New Brunswick, fourteen years in British
Columbia, has 170 acres, says : We had 20 acres of heavy wood. We generally had
white men to cut it, for a small figure. Always had a hundred cords cut, but owing to
the Chinese and Japanese we have half on our hands yet. We could not sell to clear
ourselves on it. We cannot compete.

John Kendall, fisherman, says : Last year I tried to get a job cutting timber bolts
or cordwood. T found I could get no job. I saw shingle bolts and wood being cut by
Chinese and Japanese.

Much other evidence was to the same effect.

The Japanese have gradually driven out the white man and to a large extent have
taken the place of Chinese in getting out shingle bolts and cordwood, and seem now to
have the exclusive trade for mining timber for Mexico, for which thev contract and
employ exclusively Japanese labour. The Japanese contractors pay the Japanese the
contract p"ice within a few cents and make their profits on their supplies.

One manufacturer, out of a total expenditure of ■S1:4:,000, stated that he paid to
Chinese and .Japanese for bolts ^-36,000, and that he paid to whites for bolts 84,000.

Some of the manufacturers engaged in the shingle business purchase their bolts,
which are gotten out chiefly by Japanese, and at first it appeared as if this were the
cheaper method, but the manager of one of the largest mills stated that they do not use
shingle bolts, but get out the material in the log, exclusively by white men, and so do
not employ the Japanese at all for this purpose.

In the largest shingle mill in the world, situate at Fairhaven, Washington State,
the material out of which the shingles are made is brought to the mill in log lengths.
Shingle bolts are not used, and neither Japanese nor Chinese are employed in connection
with the business. The Japanese are only employed in connection with the shingle
business in getting out the bolts ; and as it would appear that this is not the only or the
cheapest method of procuring material for shingles — even from the point of cheapness
the Japanese do not seem to be csential to the success of this business.

There are a great many shingle mills in Washington State, and the output is enor-
mous and yet Japanese are not employed. The effect of the employment of so many
Japanese in getting out shingle bolts, cordwood and mining timber is very serious upon
the white settler.

It is clear that the shingle business does not depend upon Japanese labour for the
supply of the raw material. Their monopoly of this branch of the business handicaps
the settler in disposing of his timber while clearing the lanrl, and deprives him of an
avenue of employment necessary to success until his. holding becomes sufliciently pro-
ductive to be self-sustaining. (See Part I, Chapter VII, Land Clearing, and Chapter
XIV, Shingle Business.)

• CHAPTER IV.— OTHER OCCUPATIONS.

The advent of the Japanese is comparatively recent, but for the time since thej'
have commenced to come into the countiy in considerable numbers, their employment in
the different industries and callings has been very rapid. Particular mention has been
54— 24A

372 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

made of those trades and callings wherein they are most largely employed, and only a
short reference is iiecessai-y with respect to the others. —

(1.) The Mining industry.

(2.) Railways.

(3.) Sealing.

(4.) Domestic servants.

(5.) Farming, land clearing and market gardening,

(6.) Tailors, etc.

1. THE MIXING INDUSTRY.

Coal Mine». — It is only within recent yeai-s that Japanese have been employed at
all in connection with the coal mines, and even now to only a limited extent. They are
not employed at the Fernie mines nor by the N'ew Vancouver Coal Company, Nanaimo,
Japanese to the number of 102 are employed at the Union Mines, as miners, helpers,
runnei-s, drivers, labourei-s, tuubering, blacksmiths, and labourers above ground, — 77
being employed under-ground and 2-5 above ground. Only one Japanese is employed at
the Extension mine and he above ground.

It is manifest that the Japanese are not essential to this important industiy.

2/etali/eroiis Miiies. — The Japanese have not been employed in any of the metali-
ferous mines in the Kootenay district or elsewhere on the mainland, but they have been
employed in mines near Victoria and on Texada Island.

Henrv Croft, who is engaged in mining at Mount Sicker, -t.5 miles from Victoria,
says : We employ both white labour and Japanese labour at the mines. White labour
only in the mines and Japanese only in sorting of the ore. We employ from 30 to 35
Japanese in sorting the ore. We had previously tried to get white lalx>ur for that pur-
pose. We tried to get boys from 1.5 to 20 years of age. We paid them 81.50 a day.
We had the greatest difficulty in securing boys even in the city or in the country. The
bovs from the town would come up and work for three or four days and then leave us
suddenlv. The consequence was we had to look for other labour, either we had to look
for other labour or shut down. I thought about securing Japanese from 16 to 21 years
of age. We secured the Japanese for that labour. We found them perfectly satisfac-
tory in every wav. We pav them 90 cents a day. We cannot employ wliite men, white
labour, for the simple reason that trade prices will not allow it. If we were to employ
labour at .?2.75 a dav, which is what I understand to be paid in the Kootenay, it would
make a diS'erence to us in profit of over .819,000 a year. That profit enables me to
employ more white miners than I otherwise would do.

I am adverse to Chinese and Japanese immigration, but I consider that in new
countries like South Africa and Australia you must have cheap labour, and for instance
in our own country we require cheap labour to run the saw mills. I hope that Xor\vay
and Sweden where they have cheap labour, they will .ship some of it to us. There, cheap
labour works in the sawmills, and the markets for their products are the same as ours.
Unless we liave some cheap labour, the lower grades of labour to do the lower class of
labour in mines and lumbering camps, we cannot bring this country into the state of
development we would ^rish. I think there are sufficient numbers of Japanese here
now to meet the demand and also of Chinese. I do not think it necessary to peiiiiit any
more Chinese to come into the country. I think there are enough of the Chinese and
Japanese here at the present time. No serious inconvenience would arise to our business
if no more were allowed to come in.

Q. Is there anv industry with which you are familiar that vou think would suft'er
any inconvenience, or to which any inconvenience would arise if no Chinese or Japanese
were permitted to come in ? — A. No, I believe it is now like a tap, when you want
water you turn it on and when you have enough you tm-n it oif, AJl you have got to
do is to put a per capita tax on the Chinese high enough to exclude them.

Alfred Raper said : The Japanese have been employed as miners in one mine. Only
the shift foremen and three white men. There must have been between 40 and 60.
They were discharged. They worked in the mine and above ground. They did black-

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 373

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

smithing. There are only 30 or 40 Japanese on the island now all told. There were
about 150 before the}' were discharged. There are 175 whites. White miners were
paid $3 ou hand drills and $3.50 for machine men. Muckers and shovellers !|2.50. The
Japanese miners and muckers were paid ^\.^2^^ per day. The cause of dismissal was that
it cost too much. The output was too small. It did ni)t pay. The manager said he
had taken the Japanese out for good.

The number of Japanese employed in the metaliferous mines as a whole is insigni-
ficant, and it cannot be said that this industr\' is dependent ujion their labour.

HVDUAULIC MINING.

The Japanese have displaced Chinese labour in the Cariboo Consolidated, where
about 100 are now employed. (6Vf Part I, Chaps. IX, X and XI.)

II. liAILWAYS.

The Japanese are not employed as yet to any great extent upon the railways : in-
deed with the exception of the Canadian Pacific Railway they are not employed at all.

The general superintendent of the [lacific division of the Canadian Pacific Railway
states that only seventy are employed in that division (mainline) steadily. At certain sea-
.sons of the year as many as 300 or more are employed. Of the seventy, thirty are engaged as
section men and forty on extra gang work from time to time. The Japanese are paid
from .^l to $\AQ and white men $1.25 to .$1.50. This out of a total number of nearly
five thousand is comparatively small and it is manifest that this great overland railway
has not hitherto been dependent upon this class of labour to any considerable extent.
The numbers employed as compared with the whole number of employees on this divis-
ion is so small, that it would be idle to urge that this class of labour is essential to the
success of that great enterprise.

It is said that Japanese labour is largely employed on American Traus-Continental
and other coast railways. We were informed, however, at Seattle, that the railways
are letting them go, that one or two of the railways have already ceased to employ them,
and that the Great Northern is getting rid of them as fast as it can.

The superintendent of the pacific division of the Canadian Pacific Railway stated :
This company is not interested in employing a single oriental if we can get white labour.
I don't desire to express any opinion on the question of immigration. I don't think white
men with families could live on what we pay Japanese. We do not encourage white men
with families. If the government had brought in whites to build the road it would have
been better. More was lost than gained (that is by briiiging in Chinese). The Japanese
is a better man than the Italian.

{See Part I, Chap. XIX, 8ecs. 8 and 10, Railways.)

III. SEALING.

Wm. Munsie, Victoria, engaged in the sealing business, saj's : The Japanese make
excellent sailors. I have been employing them for several years in the sealing vessels ;
I usually employ two, three or four to each vessel, but just now the sealing business is
amalgamated into one company and there are quite a number of Japanese out this year,
but I cannot say how many. No difterence is made between the white men and
Japanese as sailors. The principal reason of my employing them is, as sailors they are
handy and sometimes white sailors are scarce.

A vessel usually carries 24 men all told, and among those there would be two or three
Japanese ; some vessels have no Japanese at all, and some have four or five Japanese.
All vessels should carry Indians ; the Indians are the hunters. Half of the number on
board would be Indians, and sometimes a larger proportion. The Japanese do not hunt,
they are sailor men ; where the Japanese are emp)loyed on schooners they are boat
pullers. The Indian schooners always carry a crew of about seven white men at least
to man the vessel, and sometimes one or two Japanese are employed on them as sailors.

374 REPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Sometimes we ship four distinct races, — the fourtli a coloured man. Tlie liunters and
boat pullers eat forward and the mate and sailors take their food in the cabin. The
captain and white men live together and have their food together, they live aft, and the
Indians live in the forecastle. In such a case the Japanese lives aft and eats with the
white men. When there are sailors or schooners carrying white hunters the sailors and
Japanese eat in the forecastle, the wliite hunters and the captain and mate live aft.
The reason is that the cabin would be too small for a crew of 24 men and the sailors go
forward to suit the accommodation.

AVe have no Japanese overseers or sujaerintendents. We only employ them as
sailors, they are good sailor men, and trustworthy ; there is not anything aboard the
ship they cannot do. If no more came to this country I think we would not be incon-
venienced.

They are not hunters ; they are only fit for sailors, boat pullers and boat steerers.
There are some Japanese hunters on the Japanese coast, but not on this coast, not even
on Japanese schooners, and these vessels are even officered by white men. I think there
are not as many of them employed now as there were five years ago. There is such a
small percentage of them in the business that if none but white men were employed it
would make no practical difference. There has never been an attempt to fill our vessels
with Jajjanese. We seek white sailors first and then we pick up, if we require them,
two or three Japanese. I do not know that there is any objection to them in limited
numbers. I would be in favour of their exclusion.

IV. DOMESTIC SERVANTS.

What has been said under this heading in dealing with Chinese immigration applies
ill many particulars to the Japanese, and reference mav be had to the discussion of the
question there for a fuller statement of the views of the Commissioners upon this im-
portant suljject.

A large nuiiil)er of Japanese are employed as domestic servants and chore boys, but
they are not employed nearly to the same extent that Chinese are, nor are their wages
as a rule as high, nor do they gi\-e the same satisfaction. In some few cases they were
highly spoken of, but tliev seem rather to have accepted situations on their first coming
to the country as a means of livelihood until tliev could find some other occupation. In
Yictoria out of a total of 139 males, 57 found employment as domestic servants. They
seem to be employed where less wages are paid than are usually paid to the Chinese
domestic servants.

V. FARMIXC, LAND CLEAEIXn AND MARKET GARDENING.

The Japanese are emploved to a limited extent on the farm and in land clearing
and market gardening, and while in a few instances they are favourably spoken of as
affording cheap labour, yet the gi'eat mass of the farmers, fruit growers, and those
interested in agriculture regard them as undesirable immigrants and are strongly in
favour of the view that no more of that class should be permitted to come in.

VI. TAILORS.

A few carry on business as merchant tailors, and in .some cases Japanese tailoi's are
employed by Chinese, but they have not yet encroached upon this or other trades to any
considerable extent.

CHAPTER v.— HOW JAPANESE ARE REGARDED.

The Japanese are regarded as likely to prove keener competitors with white labour
than the Chinese. M'ith few exceptions this was the opinion generally expressed both

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 375

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

by employers and employees. It was also generally stated that they were more reatly
to adopt oui' mode of dress anrl hal)it of living than the Chinese are.

A reference to the evidence will moi'e clearly indicate the views held in regard to
tliem.

Joseph D. Graliam, goveinnient agent at Atlin : The Japanese are a little cheajx^r
than the Chinese. I would rather deal witli them. They are a more manly class of
people. Thev purchase goods from our ordinary tradesmen. They have got more of the
western method about them. Eveiybody has his own idea. I draw my own conclus-
ions from what I liave seen of the Japanese : that they are a more manly race of people,
and I have always drawn that conclusion. I ha\e only met a few of the Japane.se.
Those I have met have been more manlv than the Chinese. I cannot speak of them as
a race.

Dr. Roderick Fraser, medical health officei' for the city of Victoria : The Japanese
live in any part of the city and wear European dress and occupy ordinary houses. I do
not tliink they adopt the manners, customs and habits of our own people except in the
matter of dress. They do not adopt our food, and the labouring Japanese does not sleep
in the same kind of bed, but on a hard jjed, like the Chinese, with a wo<iden pillow.
They live close together.

Dr. Alfred T. Watt, superintendent of i|uarantine for British Columbia : I consider
they are apjiarently more like our own people. They dress in Englisli clothing ; but
you find in the boarding houses where they live — there are three or four Japanese
boarding houses in the city — there they will put on the Japanese costumes in sitting
around in their own houses and eat food prepared nuich in the same way as it is
prepared in Japan ; live on rice and fish principally.

The Japanese do not crowd together in the same sense the Chinese are crowded.
They do not all live in the same quarter. They are congregated in large boarding
houses. Large numbers sleep in one room. I think they are scarcely crowded in that
respect as nuich as the Chinese. The Japanese in Victoria is more of a ttoating
pojiulation.

William P. Winsby, Tax Collector for the City of Victoria : The Japanese assume
our dress more generally. They live in boarding houses. I think they buy most of
theirfood here. In some in.stances it comes from China ; in some instances they use
chopsticks, Ijut a great many of them use knives and forks. They assimilate with the
white man as far as they know how, and I should say the Japanese is a more dangerous
competitor than the Chinese, because he is moi-e adapted to white men's labour. He
does not confine himself to one or two things. He does not seem to be so domesticated.
He will work at any kind of work. A Japanese will take less wages than a Chinese
will. As soon as they come here thev open schools. Every man goes in t(j learn
English.

James Andrew (irant, merchant tailor, of Victoria: The Japanese dress in Euro-
pean clothes and they are a better class of men taking them all around. They are small
but they would lie more likely to confijrm to our institutions, but the eifect of their
presence here on white labour wtiuld be just the same as that of the Chinese. I wt)uld
favour their exclusion on the ground that they endangei' the welfai-e of the laboui'ing
class the same as the Chinese do. I say they are a detriment to the country'. Our
country ought to be for our own people first. Self-preser\ation is the first law of nature.

Ciive P. ^^'ollev, formerly executive officer of the sanitary commission for the
pro\ince : I have had very little experience as to Japanese. I am very much prejudiced
in their favour. I do not want them, but I think better to have them than the Chinese,
if we have to ha\e either of them, for the reason that he seems to be willing to live
more or less the white man's life. He will live as a white man does, and he is cleaner in
his surroundings. He is more like our own people in assimilating to our manners and
customs and mode of living, and he is more civilized — he is more manly and gentlemanly.
I would rather have him because he buys our produce and dresses like ourselves and
seems to be willing to adopt our habits and customs. He is a more dangerous competi-
tor with the white man. He adapts himself more easily to our civilization than the
Chinese. The Chinese will do the lowest kind of labour and stick to it. The Japanese

376 RBPOBT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

will get higher if he can, and he has brains enough to rise into any of the mechanical
pursuits. It would certainly be better for all concerned if there was either a free im-
portation of cheap labour or else that there should be a law enacted to keep out the
Chinese and Japanese altogether.

Thomas R. Smith, of Victoria, general merchant, also engaged in salmon canning
and general agent : They are not of the same class as the Chinese. The Chinese are
sober. I do not think the Japanese are always sober. I do not think they are as law-
abi ling as tlie Chinese. I should say that of the two the Chinese is more desirable I
think. If I made restriction against the Chinese I would make restriction against the
Japanese. I do not sav that the Japanese are preferable to the Chinese.

William John Taylor, of Victoria, barrister-at-law, who has resided fifteen years in
the province savs : I believe there is a great inclination on the part of the Japanese to
become a citizen and he spends more of his earnings in the community. I think in some
cases he will be a keen competitor with white labour. He can do more work than the
average Cliinese. Taking the average run of the Japanese they are more muscular. I
think it would be advisable to exclude Japanese labour also, purely from industrial
reasons ; that they do not make for the benefit of the community so much as an equal
number of whites would.

Charles F. Todd, who has resided in Victoria for over thirty years, wholesale grocer
and salnion canner, says : Chinese and Japanese are much the same. My experience
is that the Chinese are more trustworthy than the Japanese. I think restriction is quite
as necessary with the Japanese as with the Chinese^. I sliould say as much as on the
Chinese.

Albert E. McPhillips, who has resided in Victoria since 1891 and is a member of
the local legislature for the city of Victoria, says : I have had very little to do with,
and I have observed the Japanese less than the Chinese. There are very few in Victoria.
Those I have observed and mv knowledge of the work performed by them is to the effect
that they often work for less wages and compete more strongly against our labouring
people than the Chinese.

Q. Do you think they are more inclined to adopt our habits and customs than the
Chinese ? — A. I think they do on the surface, but I wouldn't like to say more than
that.

As at present advised I do not jiut one race above the, other. I think they are
equally objectionable. I would like to see the national government in some way meet
the question as a whole to exclude these people from our shores : both races if possible ;
and in such a reasonable wav as not to cause any disturbance of the relations between
the Imperial government and Japan, because I admit that should have some weight
•Kith us. I still think it would be against the best interests of this country to have that
race here in any appreciable numbers.

Joseph A. Sayward, of Victoria, manufacturer of finished and dressed lumber, and
a large employer of Chinese labour, says : I am opposed to further immigration of
Chinese in the interest of the countrv at large. I think the Japanese are pretty mucli
of the same class. I do not know there is any difference. The same objections would
apply to the Japanese.

Robert George Tatlow, member of the local legislature for Vancouver city, real
estate and general brokerage business, savs : My view is for prohibition of the labour-
ing class. I may sav I am in favour of prohibition as far as it can be got as to both
Chinese and Japanese, with due regard to the existing treaty. I think they are equally
dangerous to the future welfare of this country. ■

William Munsie ,of Victoria, who is interested in several lines of business, sawmill-
ing, sealing, &c., and employs Chinese in his lumber business and Japanese in the sealing
business, says : In regard to Chinese immigration I prefer to exclude them — to exclude
any further immigration. I do not like our country to be invaded with foreigners of
the type of Chinese and Japanese. I do not think thev will ever Ijecome Canadians in
the proper sense of the term.

Q. Would that apply with the same force to the Ja])anese ? — A. I think it would.

ox CHINESE AX I) JAPANESE IMMIGSATION 377

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

AN'illiaiu H. Ellis, provincial initnigiation otMcer for Vancouver Island, says : I
consider Japanese cleanly in habits, industrious and intelligent ; believe them more
dangerous competitors in the business of the country than the Chinese. They adopt
European dress and food and conform as much as possible to the customs of the country.
As a race they believe they are capable of taking an equal place among the civilized
nations of the world. They are more aggressive than the Chinese, and if permitted to
enter this country without restriction, would in course of time become a considerable
portion of our business and working community and would undoubtedly insist on becom-
ing enfranchised. I do not consider them desirable as citizens from the fact that they
do not or cannot assimilate with the white race. At pi-esent they, like the Chinese,
occupy a special jilace in the eomnninity. Tliey furnish labour at which a white man
cannot compete. They do not support families, and they trade almost altogether among
them.selvos. They are meagre contributors to the general welfare and are a positive
detriment to the white labourers. Their ad\antage is altogether from the standpoint
of capital.

Edmund J. Palmer, manager of the Chemainus mills (exporters of lumber), that
employ both Chinese and Japanese labour, says :

Q. I notice that you seem in the lumber business to employ more Japanese than
Chinese ? — A. It is the same class of labour, but the Japanese are better than the
Chinese. The Japanese spend a large part of their money here. They will never
settle our country up.

Q. What you mean is a great many of them ha\e not brought their wives over
here? — A. Not that altogether, but it is just like this, — if you want to improve the
stock in the country vou import good stock from the east or from other countries. The
same thing applies to a country as to stock. If you want to settle it up and ha^'e a
thriving community you import good men and their families, but here if you are figuring
up to settle up the community and open up the country the Jajianese are no good.

Heni'y Croft, engaged in mining near Victoria, where from .30 to 3.5 Japanese are
employed in selecting ore, says : —

Q. Do you think there are a sufficient number of Japanese here now to meet the
demand? — A. I think so. I think there are enough of the Chinese and Japanese here
at the present time.

I do not think the Japanese will become permanent residents. AN'hite labour will
not come in while the Chinese and Japanese are occupying the place in cheap labour
that they are doing at present. That with restriction on immigration, white labour will
gradually come in here, and the Japanese will leave the country. I favour restriction
to a certain extent. We do not require any more Chinese or Japanese here at present.
I favour a restriction, and that might be relaxed to a certain extent, as they are required
from time to time.

Edward Musgrave, of Cowichan, retired farmer, says : I do not see any necessity
foi- restriction as far as it has gone, and I look upon the state of affairs as temporarj-,
and if there was any great volume of these people coming into the country I would be
in favour of pressing the home governmeijt to do something, with a view to limiting the
number of Chinese and Japanese to a certain number in the twelve months or something
of the kind.

Edwarl Berkley, retired captain in the Royal Na\y, who is now ranching near
Victoria, is postmaster, magistrate, kc, says : The Chinese are good men but the
Japanese is rather bettei- on the ranch. I would have cheap labour regardless of colour.

Michael Finerty, farmer, Victoria, says : I never had any Japanese working for
me. As far as I can see about them they are quick and active, but still I want white
people to come into the country and make homes for themselves, people of our own race,
who would make good citizens, or people of any white race who would make good
Christians and good citizens. We ought to have good citizens and good protection for
the country in the immigrants that are allowed to come in.

James Wilson, sanitary inspector for the City of Victoria, says : I do not think
there is much difference between Chinese and Japanese. I think the Japanese do a
great deal more harm than the Chinese. They will work cheaper than the Chinese and

378 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

they get into tlie white man's ways quicker. I consider them a greater menace to tlie
interests of labour than the Chinese. I favour their exchision.

Jolm Legg, journeyman tailor, Victoria, says : Most of the objectionable features
mentioned in connection with the Chinese apply to the Japanese. I favour their
exclusion.

A. M. Sandell, cutter for Lenz it Leizer, manufacturing tailors, Victoria, says : I
think the Japanese are a preferable race to the Chinese. They ai'e not as desirable
as Europeans in this country. I do not think the Japanese will assimilate with our
people ; it would not be desirable if they were inclined to.

George A. Shade, slioemaker, Victoria, says : The Japanese will come among us
and learn our language. He will work for very little when he comes here in order to
get an opportunity of learning our language, our habits and customs. He is more
dangerous in competition than the Chinese. I do not think they are better men than
the Chinese. Thev are an oriental race and their habits are about the same. I do
not think the Japanese will make a better British subject than the Chinese. Even if
they became naturalized citizens of this country I do nut think they would be likely to
take a stand in opposition to Japan. I do not approve of the Natal Act. There will
have to be some other protection. Some of the Japanese learn to read, write and speak
English before they come here. The law would have to be prohibitory to keep those
people out.

William Smythe, shoe dealei-, Victoria, says : I do not think the Japanese are
good citizens of this country. I think the}' would be more dangerous competitors if
tliey remained in the country. ,

Andrew Strachan, market gardener, Victoria, says : I ilo nut think there is much
ditterence between the Chinese and Japanese. I think they both retard the progress
of agriculture in the country, for the simple reason that they are in the way with their
cheap labour, oi- so-called cheap labour, and have driven out of the country white men
who would have become actual settlers and developed the country. 1 thinkthe Japa-
nese are more inclined to adopt European methods than the Chine.se. I think the
Japanese are more liable to assimilitate to our manners and customs. Whether that
would continue for long I do not know. The Japanese here only adopt our dress ; that

i«an.

Robert H. Johnson, seedsman and nurseryman, Victoria, .says : I would say the
Japanese are a greater menace to the country than the Cliinese. They will not only
compete with the labourer, but they will soon compete with the proprietor in my
opinion. I do not think the Japanese will assimilate with us.

Frederick S. Hussey, superintendent of provincial piolice, Victoria, says : I think
the Japanese will be more injurious to the interests of white labour than the Chinese.
They engage in many moi-e pursuits. They are ambitious, and get into more avenues
of labour in this country. I think it would be better if their immigration were restricted,
if they come in as they have been coming for the last two years. They keep to them-
selves. They wear our clothes, but thev do not do anything to help us, and they do not
as.similate with our people. The Japanese are more vicious than the Chinese, I should
say inclined to fight and use weapons. The Chinese do not do that. 1 think it would
be better for white people if we had no Japanese at all here.

William M. Wilson, printer, Victoria, says : I would favour restriction of the immi-
gration of Japanese. J would favour the strict appli nation of the Natal Act. I believe
the Japanese will be more likely to assimilate with us, to live like our own people, adopt
our habits and mode of living, and live with us like other people.

J. W. Balmain, civil engineer and architect, Victoria, says : What I have said in
regard to the Chinese refers in a great measure to the Japanese. {Sffi evidence of this
witness. Chap. XXII, Part I.) This witness stated that it was not desirable that these
people should as.similate with ours. He favoured restriction of their immigration.

Alexander R. Milne, C.B., collector of customs for Victoria, says : — The Japanese
are more dangerous competitors than the Chinese, because they labour for lower wages.
I think a restriction on immigration would only excite the Japanese, because they are
veiy sensitive as to their stjj.tus as a people and a nation. I think the Japanese nation

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 379

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

lias reached the stas/e in whieli thev want the same privileges and amenities as are siven
to a nrst-class power.

A. S. Emory, carjienter and joiner, Victoria, says : I think the Chinese and Japanese
are equally deti'imental. Of course there is a diHerence between the two races ; one
has the advantap' of the other in some respects, but I consider that they are both
equally detrimental to the interests and the development of our province. I think some
measure sliould be adopted to pi'event them coming into the countrj'. The educational
test, as under the Natal Act, would, I think, be a great force if it was sufficiently
stringent. I do not think any Imperial interests would be in the slightest degree in
danger by dealing directlj' with the Japanese government in arranging for a mutual re-
striction. Let the Japanese government restrict the immigration of white laboui-,
unskilled white labour, into their country, and let the same lule apply as against Japanese
labour here.

William George Cameron, retail clothier, Victoria, says : I think the Japanese are
a Ijetter class of people than the Chinese. As far as labour is concerned I think them
as dangerous as the Chinese.

8amuel L. Reid, retail clothier, Victoria, says ; The Japanese are not a desirable
class of citizens. I do not think it would be desirable for them to intermarry with our
people. I think it would be disastrous if they were permitted to come in in great num-
bers. The feeling does not seem to be as strong against the Japanese because thej' seem
to be more inclined to adopt European customs and seem more inclined to make them-
selves at home. I am in favour of prohibiting any further immigration of the Asiatic
races.

John Piercy, wholesale dry goods merchant, Victoria, says : I maintain that with
the present n inn bei- of Japanese in the country there is quite enough to supply all
demands. I think there should be restriction on them. If there were no restriction 1
think they would be in a short time worse than the Chinese, flooding the country on the
same principle as the Chinese do. I dii not know whether we are affected by any treaty
with Britain or not. International law is something I do not 'know anything about.
That would have to be discussed in Ottawa. They will have to discover some means
there, either by treaty or otherwise, of restricting the Japanese.

George Gawley, fish and poultry dealer, etc., Victoria, says : The Japanese are an
injury to the white and Indian fishermen. I do not think they are the right class of
people for this country.

Alexander Gilniour McCandless, retail clothier, Victoria, says : I favour exclusion
of the Chinese and Japanese. There may be difficulties in the way as to the Japanese,'
but I favour the exclusion of both.- I consider the Japanese superior to the Chinese.
I consider there are enough Japanese here now to do all the work recjuiied for years to
come, for those people who want cheap labour.

Joseph Shaw, market gardener, Victoria, says : I think the Japanese are worse
than the Chinese. They work tV)r much lower wages ; when they first come they go out
and work at farming for $.5 or $7 a month, and when they get u.sed to the work they get
up to about 610.

Robert Erskine, retail grocer, Victoria, says : The Japanese ai'e a race that do to
a certain extent ape the white race. They fall more in line with the methods of white
people. Those in tlie province for a number of years are better than the Chinese. They
comj)eteas keenly as Chinese.

Arthur L. Belyea, barrister-at-law, Victoria, says : I do not think the Japanese
are more desirable than the Chinese. I qualify that only by saying that the Japanese
catch on to our manners and customs faster tlian the Chinese. They imitate as far as
they possibly can European civilization, but when it comes to be a question whether
they will be Euroj>ean or .lapanese, they are Japanese all the time.

Q. Would you say our race would receive benefit by assimilation with the
Japanese? — A. I would not say. I do not like to express an opinion on that, but I
would rather see no such thing as assimilation.

Hugh Gilmour, ^I.L.A. for Vancou\-er, says : The country and its interests would
be better developed by white men. The country is a good place to live in. I think the

380 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

eouutiy is good enough for anybody to live in if we only had the Chinese and Japanese
out.

Charles F. Dupont, capitalist, Victoria, says : I think the Chinese are better in
their habits than the Japanese. The Japanese conform more to the manners and cus-
toms of the European nations. I think the danger of the Japanese assimilating is
greater, but we do not wish them to assimilate. I am ojjposed to anything like assimila-
tion between anv of these races.

Dr. O. M. Jones, Victoria, says : As to cleanliness the Chinese and Japanese are
about the same. I think they are both objeetit)nable. I would prefer the Chinese to
the Japanese if I had any preference. I think the Japanete coolie immigration ought
certainly to be restricted.

Q. Would vou take the chances of prejudicing the Japanese Government I — A.
They look upon themselves as a great power. That is a diplomatic question : but I cer-
tainly think the Japanese coolie is not desirable as a part of our pojsulation anv more
than the Chinese.

Rev. Leslie Clay, Presbyterian minister, Victoria, says : The current idea is simplv
this, that the Japanese with the Chinese w:ill not and cannot assimilate with us. I do
not think the Japanese will ever assimilate with us. I do not think the Japanese will
ever assimilate and become an integral part of our race.

Joseph Hunter, Superintendent of E. ife N. Railway, Victoria, says : — I prefer the
Chinese to the Japanese as far as ability is concerned for workmen. I think the immi-
gration of Japanese ought to be restricted. If you restrict the Chinese I do not think
you should allow the Japanese to come in As far as my knowledge goes I do not think
there is a great deal of difierence between the Chinese and Japanese.

David Spencer, merchant, Victoria, says : Further immigration into the countrv
of this class of people (Chinese and Japanese) will be very detrimental. I think the
Japanese would assimilate with Europeans. They would bring their families here
and get homes here more readily.

Robert F. Green, M.L.A. for Slocan, says : The Japanese will never become an
integral part of the race that will develop Canada. As long as the Japanese are here
we will be unable to induce the better class of immigrants to come into our pro%dnce.

Rev. Canon Beanlands, Victoria, says : I think there is a greater danger from the
Japanese than the Chinese, and I believe there should be some restriction. I think the
morality of the Japanese is much lower than that of the English labourer. I thmk you
are certainly running a risk of danger in introducing the Japanese ideas of the I'ace
relations and of the marital relations in British Columbia. I think the Chinese are
preferable to the Japanese because they are non-assimilating. If there were many
Japanese coming into this countrv it would be desirable to restrict the immigration. I
think they are a more tlangerous element in the country than the Chinese.

William McAllan, coal miner, Nanaimo, says : I am opposed to any further im-
migration of Japanese.

William A\'oodman, locomotive engineer, Xanaimo, says : I cannot detect any
superiority at all between the Chinese and Japanese. I would jiass legislation in the
direction of iixing a minimum wage, and I am certain that would have the effect of
putting both classes out.

John Knowles Hickman, locomotive engineer, Nanaimo, says : I would say pro-
hibit both the Chinese and Japanese. If the Chinese and Japanese were excluded we
would have plenty of white labour, and it would not be compulsory on our young boys
to walk about the streets without emplovment. I do not think the Japanese will ever
assimilate with us.

John C. McGregor, secretarv of Trades and Labour Council, Nanaimo, says : The
Japanese come here, do not bring their families, puichase land, or anything of the kind.
They \\\e in little old shacks and they compete with white people and work for much
lower wages. In case of trouble I should think they would be more dangerous than the
Chinese. Thev \\ork for lowei- wages than the Chinese.

James Cartwright, coal miner, Nanaimo, says : I think the Japanese compete
worse than the Chinese, by working for less wages. All my objections to the Chinese
apply to the Japanese.

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIHRATION 381

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Andrew Haslani, mill owner, Nanaimo says : I think the Japanese will finally Ije
a keener competitor with the white man than the Chinaman. I do not know of any-
thing objectionable about the Japanese. I do not think anyone will deny that the
Japanese are a progressive people, and have advanced more rapidly oi lafe than any
other nation, but on the other hand their wants are so few and their habits so simple
they can live well for a very small sun; of money, for a such sum that a wliite person
could not possibly live on ; and to bring an unlimited number of these people here to
enter into competition with our own white people I do not think is in the interests of
the country by any means. I do not think it would be wise to persist in any regulation
that would tend to irritate the Japanese people. I tliink the people in tins pntvince
should b.^ prepai'ed to sacrifice something for the sake of Imperial interests.

^larshall Bray, Go\ernment agent, Nanaimo says ; I am in favour of the total
exclusion of the Japanese.

Samuel M. Robins, superintendent of the New Vancouver Coal Company, Nanaimo,
says : I ne^■er employed but one Japanese either for the company or for myself since I
have been in the pr(jvince.

Dr. W. W. Walkem, Nanaimo says : The Japanese are a better class of people I
think than the Chinese. They may after a long time become settlers, but at the present
time and under the present circumstances tliey ai'e not desirable as settlers. Great
Britain is well able to take care of herself. I do not think that any legislation in
regard to the Japanese will hurt the friendlj^ feeling between Japan and Britain a bit.
A power like the Japanese would not like to see a class of citizens come here to represent
their power who from their social conditions were not desirable, and who would come
into competition witli the working classes here, and that tlierefore the government here
would be called upon to legislate against them. No doubt the Japanese government would
assent to that if projjer representations were made to it.

Andrew Brydon, manager of the Extension Colliery, near Nanaimo says : If the
Japanese were permitted to come in here and the Chinese were prohibited, they would
be just as great a menace to the various trades and callings in this country and to the
country at large as the Chinese. I do not see any difference.

Charles Edward Stevenson, presdent of the Board of Trade of Nanaimo says : I
have the pleasure to present to the Commissioners a petition from the Board of Trade of
Nanaimo. It is against any further immigration of either Chinese or Japanese. It is
in favour of the prohibition of further Chinese immigration and of the restriction of the
Japanese by the application of the Natal Act. The Japanese are as undesirable as the
Chinese, and I tliink something should be done in the way of coming to an understand-
ing with the government of Japan, if it could not bs done in any other way.

Edward Quenell, butcher, Naniamo, says : We can get along very well without
Japanese. I lived here when there were none of the Chinese or Japanese at all and w^e
got along all right.

O o o

Francis Deans Little, general manager of the Wellington colliery company union,
says : The Chinese and Japanese are pretty much alike. I think the Chinese are
stronger workers.

James Abrams, stipendiary magistrate for Comox district, says : I think the Japan-
ese should be placed in the same position as the Chinese in the matter of further immi-
gration.

John Murray, government timber inspector, Vancouver, says : I think there are
- enough Japanese here now. We do not want any moi-e. The Japanese is a keener
competitor in labour with the white man.

Robert J. Skinner, provincial timber inspector, Vancouver, says : I favour the total
prohibition of both Chinese and Japanese.

Robert Marrion, health inspector for the city of Vancouver, says : I feel that the
Japanese immigration is a greater menace to the country than the Chinese. The Jap-
anese as he improves by the contact with eivilizati(jn in this country becomes a very
dangerous competitor.

Joseph Wright, assistant health inspector, Vancouver, says : I favour the exclusion
of the Japanese from this country. I look upon them as great a menace to labour as
the Chinese.

382 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Robert T. Burtwell. Dominion fishery guardian, Vancouver, says : I think it would
be better for the country if there were fewer Chinese and Japanese here.

Albert E. Beck, district registrar of the Supreme court, Vancouver, says : I think
it is a serious thing in many ways introducing a class (Chinese and Japanese coolie
labour) of the kind into the country. It aifects everyone. I think it a proper exercise
otour authority to exclude from our shores people who will not inter-marry. The Jap-
anese are a Mongolian race who will not assimilate with our people like the Swedes and
Norwegians. If the British nation was subjected to the same conditions we are sub-
jected to on our coast I do not think they would stand it for a moment. It is a most
serious question, this naturalization of Japanese. I do not know of any law more free
and easy than the Canadian Naturalization Act. The Japanese should be restricted.

Richard H. Ale.'cander, manager of the Hastings saw-mill, Vancouver, says :

Q. Do you favour any further restriction on Japanese ? — A. AVell, gentlemen, if you
will allow me to demur from answering such a question as that, I would like to confine
myself to its efi'ect on the lumber trade. The Japanese supplies the want of the propor-
tion of cheap labour that is necessary to compete in the markets of the world. I submit
that there is great necessity that they should be here to supply that proportion of cheap
labour in order that we may employ a larger number of wdiites. The point is this : We
have always had a certain proportion of cheap labour, and in order to operate success-
fully we must have it }'et, and having that cheap labour we are enabled to employ white
men in the higher branches of industry.

Robert C. Ferguson, manager of the Royal city mills, Vancouver, says : I do not
find Chinese or Japanese assimilate with our people at all. The only difference I see is
that the Japanese are ahvays trying to pick up English. I do not know whether I would
be in favour of the restriction of those people coming in or not. It may be well to
restrict for a time, but a man has to be governed by the w-ants of his business.

John Valentine Cook, tallyman and lumber rater, Vancouver, says : I favour
restriction of both Chinese and Japanese. My idea is that the Japanese are more
dangerous than the Chinese. I would exclude any more coming in of the working class.

Stephen Ramage, saw-filer, Vancouver, says ; The Japanese are fast becoming to
be a greater menace to the white population than the Chinese \W11 ever get to be. Thej-
are more able-bodied and they are quicker to adapt themselves to their surroundings.
Very few of them have families here. My principal objection to them is that they do
not assimilate, cannot assimilate, with our race, and that our country should be for men
of our ow n race, instead of being overrun by an alien race.

Arthur C. Gordon, shingle manufactui-er, Vancouver, says ; I favour the restriction
of Chinese and Japanese immigration. That applies more to the Japanese than to the
Chinese.

William C. Dickson, bookkeeper and mill yard foreman, Vancouver, says : I favour
restriction being put on Japanese immigration to the extent to keep them out entirely.
I think the presence of the Japanese here injures the labouring man fully as bad, if not
worse, than the Chinese.

John L. Anderson, fisherman, Vancouver, says : The Japanese show no indications
of becoming citizens except in an illegal way. Thei-e are a large number of Japanese
who have naturalization certificates who ought not to have them if that subject were
gone into. The .Japanese are certainly a greater menace than the Chinese. If there
cannot be an exclusion law my idea would be to try and get by some diplomacy the
Japanese Government to agree to limit the emigration from Japan to a certain numbfer
each year, and that number should not he increased under any circumstances.

Petei' Smith, fisherman, Vancouver, says : My complaint is that the Japanese have
more rights in this province than the whites and Indians as far as I can see. I com-
plain that people who are boi'n in this country are being driven out of it by the Chinese
and Japanese. As far as I can see there is no use or benefit to the country in allowing
Japanese immigration into this country. We do not want to see any more of them here.
I think if there are any more Japanese allowed to come to this country that there will
be bloodshed.

ox CIIIXESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGBA TIOX 383

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Abel Wciiken, luickmaker, Yiincouver, saj's : My view is that the system of livitif
among the Chinese and Japanese does harm to white men. I would say have exclusion.
1 do not see tliat there is any ditl'erence between the Chinese and Japanese.

Francis Williams, journeyman tailor, Vancouver, says : The Japanese are a verj'
olijectionable class of people to come into our country.

Angus M. Stewart, clothing manufacturer, Vancouver, says : I would be in favour
of keeping the Japanese out just the same as I am in favour of keeping out the Chinese,
because if they are not restricted they will ^•ery soon become as great an evil as the
Chinese, as far as I can make out.

William Lawrence Fagan, pro^■incial assessor and collector for the county of Van-
couver, says : 'Die Japanese do not seem to care about making homes here. Thej' do
not take up land. They do not seem to care about settling here. They come here and
make a few hundred dollars and then go back to Japan if the}- can get away. If you
had something to put in their places I would restrict more of them coming here.

John M. Bowell, collector of customs, Vancouver, says : I am in favour of the
Natal Act.

Benjamin F. Rogers, manager of the sugar refinery, Vancouver, says : It would he
impossible to exclude the Japanese. The Impei-ial Government would never agree to
that.

Truman S. Baxter, law student, Vancouver, says : T am in favour of prohibition of
furtlier immigration of Chinese and Japanese. I think that either by enactment or by
treatj' with the Japanese Government thej' can arrange to either restrict immigration
or prohibit immigration altogether from Japan. There would be no objection whatever
in passing an Act similar to the Natal Act. Mr. Joseph Chamberlain has said so much.

Andrew Linton, boat builder, Vancouver, says : I put the Japanese on the same
basis as the Chinese, if not worse. I think they are more flangerous to the country than
the Chinese.

Henry Mun<lon, boat Ijuilder, Vancouver, .savs : I would favour the exclusion of
Japanese from this counti'v.

Alfred Wallace, boat builder, Vancouver, says : I thinl: we have enough hei'e at
the present time of the Japanese. I would be opposed to further immigration of either
Chinese or Japanese.

Richard Marpole, superintendent of the Pacific Division Canadian Pacific Railway,
Vancouver, says : Japanese labour in my opinion is fully equal to Italian labour.

Alfred Raper, miner, Texada Island, says : I think it wciuld be much better for
the island and much better for the pro^•ince at large if we had fewer Chinese and Jap-
anese here. I favour the exclusion of these people from the country.

Rev. Edmund E. Hcott, Methodist ministei', Vancouver, says : They are awaken-
ing to the fact in Japan now that too many of their people have emigrated here, and I
have no doubt there will be little ditlieulty in arranging the whole matter with the Jap-
anese government. I think .Japanese immigration is not desirable.

Rev. R. G. McBeth, Presbyterian minister, Vancouver, says : I have formed a
more favourable opinion of the Japanese as a class. I am satisfied the Japanese I have
come in contact with are brighter and more liable to assimilate with the Anglo-Sa^on race
than the Chinese. They take more kindly to our institutions and customs because
they are not under the same superstition as the Chinese from a religious standpoint.

John Morton, secretary of the parliamentary committee of the trades and Labour
Council, Vancoviver, says : The skilled ti'ades claim that the Japanese are worse than
the Chinese because they are a class of people more likely to enter the skilled trades
than tlie Chinese. I do not want them on any consideration at all. If the Japanese
will associate with me and live in the same way as I do I would not object to him, but
he wont do it ; he simplv refuses' to do it.

Walter Taylor, fruit canner, Vancouver, says : I think we have got too many
Japanese here now. I think in a great many cases if the Japanese were not here white
labour would take their places. Sufficient white labour cimld lie found to take their
places.

384 EEFOKT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Frank Burnett, canner, Vancouver, says : I think tliere are enough Japanese here
now. As far as the Japanese are concerned I think the Japanese are no more objection-
able immigrants than the slavs from Europe. I think the desired further restriction
of Japanese could be obtained by negotiations.

Henry O. Bell-Irving, canner, Yaucou\er, says : I am rather in for free trade in
labour for'some time to come. I believe it will be the best policy. I consider that the
restriction of labour will act very detrimentally to the prosperity of the country. For
the development of this country we must have cheaper labour than we have now ;
otherwise development will be retarded and the population will increase very slowly.
Take the mines for instance ; only mines that are exceedingly rich can be worked under
present conditions, whereas with cheaper labour the miners will be steadily employed,
the miners would work systematically, they would have steady work right through, but
as at present the cost of working the mines being ver^v high, and in consequence a large
number of mines have had to close down.

Samuel McPherson, merchant tailor, Vancouver, says : As far as this province is
concerned I think it would be a good thing if they (Japanese) were restricted, because
they work so cheap ; they work cheaper than a white man possibly can.

Alexander ^IcCallum, merchant tailor, of Vancouver, says : The Merchant Tailors'
Association of Vancouver are opposed to furtlier immigration of the Japanese.

Gordon W. Thomas, farmer, Vancouver, says : I think something should be done
at once to stop the further flow of Chinese and Japanese into this country. The one is
just as injurious to the settlement of the country as the other. The Emperor of Japan
I believe has expressed himself in favour of restriction. It would be impossible for a
white man to maintain his family and to educate his children on ^15 a month, and that
will soon be the wage if these people are allowed to come in.

N. C. Show, journalist, reeve of Burnaby, says : We are strongly in favour of res-
triction of Japanese immigration by some kind of convention ^%-ith Japan. It seems to
me that this can be arranged on a fair and equitable basis by arranging with the
Japanese government that they will not allow more than a small percentage of labour
emigrants to come to Canada in proportion to our working population, the Japanese
stipulating in return for the same restriction on Canadian labour immigration. Japan
would thus assert her position as an equal sovereign power with Great Britain, by the
restriction of Canadian immigration to Japan.

Honourable James Reid, senator for Cariboo, says : I think as far as labour is
concerned they (Japanese) are a greater danger than the Chinese. I think if restriction
is applied to the Chinese it should be applied to the Japanese as well. If they are a
detriment to the country, the restriction should be applied to them as well as to any
others. I think that could be done through the Imperial Government. I think the
Japanese mimigration to this country could be arranged between Japan and the Imperial
Government, and so many allowed to come in each year without there being any friction
at all.

John M. Duval, wood-turner, Vancouver, says : Japanese labour is more dangerous
than the Chinese, and my objections to the Chinese apply equally to the Japanese with
more .so.

James G. Scott, mayor of New Westminster, says : My objection to the Japanese
is that they mav invade other industries in the country and come into competition .with
our o^vn peopile more keenly than the Chinese.

James Anderson, canner. New Westminster, says : My opinion is to get rid of both
the Chinese and Japanese, if the conditions vdW allow it. I think you can do better
without the Japanese than you can without the Chinese.

Henry T. Thrift, farmer, secretary of the Settlers' Association of British Columbia,
New Westminster, says : Any distinction as far as I have been able to decide is that
the Japanese are more dangerous than the Chinese, on account of their superior intelli-
crence. The presence of the Chinese and Japanese here hinders the better class of people
coming in here and settling up the vacant lands of the province.

William J. Brandrith, secretary of the British Columbia Fruit Growers' Association,
New Westminster, says : I believe they (the association) are all in favour of total pro-

ox CHINESE ANJJ JAPANESE IMMKIRA TION 385

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

hibition of any furthrr iiinnigration of that class here. It applies ri|uallv U< the Chinese
and Japanese.

John Armstrong, farmer, reeve of Surrey, says : Farmers in my neifthboiirliond ai'e
in favour of prohibiting further imrnigraticsn. They are distinctly against anv more
coming in. That applies fully as much to Japanese as to Chinese.

Heni-y Haggaman, expressman, New "\\'estminster, says: J am opposed to further
innnigration of the Japanese.

George H. West, fisherman, New Westminster, says : I think the further restriction
of Ja]ianese immigiation is absolutely necessarv.

Hezekiah .Stead, fisherman. New AVestniinster, says : 1 have nothing good to say
about the Japanese. They are detrimental to our interests and to the interests of the
country altogether. They are detrimental to the working man in every w^av. They
work so low and they can live on so very little, that it is impossible for white labourers
to live in the cities and pay taxes and pay rents for houses. I know that some of us
have tried it and have failed. n.iissj

George Mackie, fisherman. New Westminster, says : If they (Chinese and Japanese)
continue to come in here I will either have to leave or to starve. Circumstances cannot
better with these people here. The Mongolians have cut me out of everything as w-ell
as they have done in the fishing. I have applied at various places, at" sawmills and
factories, for employment, and cannot get it. During the three years I have been here
I ha^e only been able to secure work for four months outsifle of the fisheries.

John Perry Bowell,- Methodist minister. New Westminster, says : I consider the
immigration oi Chinese and Japanese to be detrimental to the labour interests of the
country, mainly because a great many avenues of industry where white people used to
be largely employed are now being monopolized by the Chinese and Japanese. I think
the fact that the .Japanese is better qualified to adapt himself to the conditions pre-
vailing here makes him a greater menace than the Chinaman to our own labom' people.
N. J. Coulter, vice-president of the Grand Lodge of the Fishermen's Union of B.C.,
New Westminster, says : I am opposed to further inmiigration of the Japanese ; firstlv,
because they cannot and nevei- will assimilate and become amalgamated with the white
citizens of this country ; secondly, because they labour cheaper than a white man can
aflbrd to w(jrk and live ; and thirdly, in the fishing industry tliev are not indi\idual
but contract labour, which in my opinion is not the standard of British Columbia i>v of
the British Empire, and is contrary to all the traditions of British subjects.

George Hargreaves, painter. New Westminster, says : I am strongly opposeil to
further immigration of Ja])anese.

E. Goulet, Canadian Pacific Railway agent, Kamloops, says : I do not think the
Japanese will ever assimilate with our people, anfl it would not be a good thino- if they
did.

M. P. Gordon, mayor of Kamloops, says : I think it would be beneficial to the
country to restrict the Japanese coming in, to the same extent as the Chinese. I think
the reason for excluding the Chinese would be greater than for excluding the Japanese.
Albert Riordan, miner, Kamloops, says : Out here at the Glen Mine the foreman
wanted me to work with the Japanese and I quit. I would not work with the Japanese.
I favour absolute exclusion of both the Chinese and Japanese.

Joseph McGee, secretary of the Labourers' union, Kamloops, says : I represent the
Labourers' Union of this town. They e^)nsider that the Chinese and Japanese are a
detriment to white labour, and though the union are aware that the Chinese and
Japanese are not as plentiful as at the coast cities, yet thej' feel that the effect of the
invasion of the Chinese and Japanese has had on the coast is the same as it is here, and
they express themselves that the union is decidedly in favour of the total exclusion of
Chinese and Japanese from the Province of British Columbia.

Dr. James W. Cross, health officer, Revelstoke, says : We have n(j Jajsanese in this
town except in railwaj' work, but I would prefer to see prohibition of both Chinese and
Japanese.

Robert B. Farwell, machinist, Revelstoke, says : They are in every sense a most
undesirable class of immigrants. Thev retard the progress of the country and keep ijood
5-1—25

386 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

immigrants from comint; in here. If they were not liere white men would take their
place.s. I would favour preventing the Japanese coming into this country.

James C. Tunstall, mining recorder, Vernon, say.s : The Japanese are just as bad
as the Chinese. There is just as much opposition to the Japanese as to the Chinese, as
far as the labour question is concerned.

Joseph Harwood, expressman, Vernon, saj's : I favour total exclusion of Chinese
and Japanese from the country. The Japanese are just as objectionable as the Chinese.

J. B. !Mc Arthur, mine operator, Rossland, says : I do not think legislation for or against
the Chinese or Japanese would interfere with the investment of capital in this section.
Of course, there may be Imperial and State reasons iov dealing with Japanese differently
from the way in which vou would deal with the Chinese. That is something I cannot
say anything about, l)ut I will say this, — we can help to solve the question by
representing to the Imperial Go\ernment that these people are an injury to our own
people.

Honourable Smith Curtis, 31. L. A. for Rossland, says : I am strongly in fa^-our
not only of restriction, but of exclusion of all oriental races. The opinion throughout
the country I believe is praeticall}' unanimous. It is almost a unanimous c)pinion of
all classes that there should be no immigration of this class of labour into British
Columbia. If there are any reasons why it is inexpedient to adopt this course ($500
poll tax) against the Japanese for Imperial reasons, we ought to have restriction on the
lines of what is known as the Natal Act, providing an educational test on emigrants,
and that should be brought into force without delay. That is a method that has been
suggested bv the Colonial .Secretary, the Right Honourable Jf)seph Chamberlain, and
can hardly be objected to by the Imjierial authorities.

John C. Egan, journalist, Rossland, says : What little I have .seen of them
(Japanese) I think they are as undesirable a class of citizens as the Chinese are in this
country.

Frank E. Woodside, secretary of miners' union, Rossland, says : I think that the
immigration of Japanese should be prevented entirely.

Edmund B. Kerby, manager of the War Eagle and Centre Star, Rossland, says :
I do not think that it is for the best interests of the community to have an unlimited
supply of Chinese and Japanese labour coming into the country.

Bernard Macdonald, manager of the British American Corporatitm, Rossland, says :
My knowledge of the Japanese is not extensive, but I think they are prefei'able to the
Chinese because they are more progressive, and therefore more profitable.

Thomas H. Long, sanitary inspector, Rossland, says : I think the Japanese should
.be excluded from the country.

James De\ine, miner, Rossland, says : I am in fa\our of exclusion of both Chinese
and Japanese.

Bullock Webster, provincial chief constable for West Kootenay, saj'S : I find that
the Japanese are honest, are better men than the Chinese, and their manner of living is
more similar to that of white men. I think that the restriction of Japanese immigra-
tion is desirable.

Charles Hillyer, sawmill proprietor, Nelson, says : I consider that if the Chinese
and Japanese ai'e allowed to come in freely, in 25 years the white man will be the slave
and the Chinese or Japanese the boss.

John H(.)Uston, M. L. A. for Nelson, says ; They do not assimilate with English
.speaking people, and from my standpoint no race of people that cannot assimilate with
ours is desirable, whether they be Chinese, Japanese or Europeans. I certainly would
take the risk, if risk there is, of offending the Japanese nation. I do not know any
good reason why our people should be degraded, and I do not see any reason why we
should not be on good terms with the Japanese government, even if we did exclude the
Japanese from the country. Self-preservation is the first law of nature and we cannot
•get over it.

Gustave A. Carlson, mayor of Kaslo, says : Personally I don't think we should have
.any more here than we have.

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMKlllATlON 387

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

AMKUK'AN' (IPINIOX.

W. H. Perry, assistant general manager of Moran Brothei's, Seattle, says : We have
ne\er employed Japanese. If I had to choose between an immiyration (jf the imc oi'
the other I would [irefer the Chinese.

J. W. Clise, president of the Chamber of Commerce, Seattle, says : There is no
disposition at present to exclude the Japanese, but tlie pef)ple do not feel any more
kindly inclined to the .lapanese than to the Chinese.

A. H. Grout, labour connnissioner, Seattle, sa3-s : There is a distinction between
the Chinese and .lapanese. Tiie average Japanese is more intelligent, aflapts himself
mure readily to our wavs, and to that extent is looked upon with more fa\our. There
has been quite a little agitation against them in the'last few years.

Theodore Ludgate, mill owner, Seattle, formerly of Peterborough, says : If the
Japanese come here in large numbers and conflict with white labour, the agitation would
soon be acute, and the government would find some way of excluding them the same as
tiie Chinese.

\V. H. Middleton, secretary of the Western Central Labour Bureau, Seattle, says :
The Japanese are looked upon as a more serious danger to white labour than the Chinese.
The people generally are in favour of the same exclusion being applied to the Japanese
as has been appliefl to the Chinese. A strong effort will be made to make the laws the
same with regard to the Japanese as it is now in regard to the Chinese. The Japanese
are looked upon as a greater menace than the Chinese at the present time.

A. S. Martin, secretary Puget Souud sawmill and shingle company, Fairhaven,
\\'ashington, .saj-s : The sentiment here is opposed to both Chinese and Japanese. If
the matter were put to the popular vote not one would be allowed in town.

E. B. Deming, manager Pacific American Fishing Company, Fairhaven, Wash., says :
Japanese are unsatisfactory. We would not think of employing them as Chinese are. I
prefer white labour at higher wages to Japanese.

S. E. Masten, secretary of the Board of Trade, Portland, Oregon, says : We would
rather not have the coolie class here. We would rather not have Japanese labour
coming in here at all.

H. S. Rowe, mayor of Portland, Oregon, says : Very few of our people favour
either the Chinese or the Japanese. The Japanese are getting more and more into
doinestic service here. They seem to take more to our ways and to be more inclined to
settle here. I would not like to see this class of people filling up the State of Oregon.

W^. J. Hone3'man, merchant, Portlanfl, Oregon, says : The Japanese do not appear
to be satisfactorj' as servants, and the}- are not considered as good on railroafl work.
They are not as reliable in my experience.

A. A. Bailey, secretary of the federated trades, Portland, Oregon, says ; The objec-
tion now is as great to the Japanese as it has e\er been to the Chinese.

J. M. Lawrence, city editor Oregonian, Portland, says : I do not think the Japa-
nese are any better than the Chinese. There would be irritation here if large numbers
of Japanese were coming in, but I do not anticipate any danger from that question now.
I think we have sufficient numbers of Japanese here now. We do not I'equire any more
of them, and if it can_be arranged by diplomatic means that there will be an exclusion
of the Japanese as there is an exclusion of the Chinese, the country will be benefitted.

T. M. Crawford, labour agent, Portland, says : The Chinese will not work for as
low wages as the Japanese will. Here we get the worst class of the Japanese. It may
be called the coolie class. They are a low t3^e and an ignorant class. They answer all
questions verj^ nearlj- verbatim. They have been trained by the contractoi's who go to
Japan.

R. Ecclestone, immigration officer, San Francisco, says : The Japanese coming in
here are of the very lowest class. They work cheaper than the Chinese. Very few
families come in. If they come here in large numbers there will he a similar agitation
to that against the Chinese twenty years ago.

J. H. Barbour, immigration officer, San Francisco, says : People prefer the Chinese
to the .Japanese when they can get them. They are more reliable than the Japanese.
The sentiment amongst the labour unions is that the Japanese is a stronger competitor.
54_-2.5i

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1932

H. F. Foitman, president^ of the Alaska Paekei-s' Association, h>an Frantisco. savs :
I would apply the same restriction to the Japanese as to the Chinese ; in fact if I could
I would double the tax on the Japanese, simply because they are not to be preferred to
the Chinese. The Chinese are more reliable and law-abiding ; even the Japanese con-
sider the Chinese more reliable and more honest in their acts. In every Japanese liank
and in every large Japanese institution you will find a Chinese compadore as cashier < <v
manager. I think the trade with China is increasing more rapidly than our trade with
Japan.

F. y . Meyers, commissioner of the bureau of labour statistics, San Francisco, says :
The general feeling in the community is in favour of the continuance of the Exclusion
Act in regard to tlie Chinese and to have the same measure of exclusion extended to
the Japanese as well. The ijuestioikof Japanese immigration is becoming acute. AVlien
the agitation for the Exclusion Act is brought up again, there will be a very pronounced
agitation to have the Exclusion Act extended to prevent the Japanese coming in.

James D. Phelan, mayor of 8an Francisco, says : There is no preference here for the
Japanese. They have the reputation of being less reliable. From our experience the
Chinese observe the obligations of business more carefully, but the Japanese seem to be
more ambitious to advance themselves along the line of western civilization, but they
do not assimilate. They keep themselves a good deal by themselves.

TRADE WITH .TAPAN.

The following figures show- that Canada'.s trade with Japan is very small.

In 1900 the imports were valued at 81,762,.j3i, of wliich §1,301, 21.5 were free, and
$461,319 dutiable.

Of the goods admitted free of duty, tea amounted to 81,276,736. It may be
noticed that settlers' effects amounted to 89-52, and for the previous year 897.

The exports for 1900 were valued at 8112,308, of which .847,773 was fish and fish
products, and 821,946 lumber and wood manufactures, breadstuffs 86,471, provisions,
butter, cheese, itc, 83,049.

The following table shows the imports and exports since 1S96 inclusive : —

Imports .
Exports

189(;.

1,648,232
8,253

i8;i7.

l,.32!l.980
141,946

1898.

1,458,233
148,728

1899.

2,009,747
135,265

IfWO.

1,762,534
112,.S08

The increase of American trade with Japan is largely made up of two items, —
cotton and flour. Its development is indicated by the following table : —

COTTOX KXPORTS TO .JAPAN FROM I'XITED STATES.

1896.

1897.

1898.

1899.

19011

Wheat

Flour ■

1,481,036
286,111

2,.345,0]6
819,620 ,

r^— L

7,428,220
644,039

5,775,784
722,710

12,712,619
1,^54,739

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGUA TION 389

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

CHAPTER YI.— PART I.— RESUME.

CHAP. I. JAPANESE IMMIGRATION.

From fourteen to fifteen thousand .Japanese have arrived in British Cohniibia
within the last five years. Of these o\er ten thousand arrived in one year, namely,
between Juh' 1, 1899, and July 1, 1900. No record is kept of the number that have
returned to .Japan. Many have gone to the United States, leaving only 4,7.59 .Japanese
in Canada, — according to the last census, — of whom 4,578 are in British Columbia,
nearly all of whom are adult males of the labouring class.

The total number of Japanese admitted through the ports of Washington State
from Jul}- 1, 1898, to November 13, 1900, was 13,401, of whom 266 were rejected.

"2,. 500 .Japanese entered the States of Washington and California from Canada by
card. Washington State has 4,532 Japanese males and 185 Japanese females ; Oregon
State, 2,405 males and 96 females.

The number of Japanese in the United States, as given by the last census, i.s 86,000,
of whom 61,111 are in Hawaii, and 24,326 in the United States proper, of which
number 23,376 are in the Western States.

CAUSE OF THIS LAROE INFLUX.

The most probable cause assigned for this large immigration of Japanese seems to
be that the emigration agencies in Japan had booked a large number of emigrants for
Honolulu, that about the time they were aboard ship the bubonic plague witli its result-
ing quarantine appeared at Honolulu, and prevented the emgrants being sent there.
The agencies rather than surrender their commissions induced the emigrants to go to
the United States and Canada instead ; and that, owing to the American Alien Act,
man}- came to British Columbia that were really destined for the United States.

In this connection it may also be mentioned, that sis out of the twelve companies
in .Japan organized to promote emigration have agents in the United States and Canada,
and, taking advantage of favourable conditions, fostered the emigration of .Japanese to
the United States and Canada as a matter of business for the sake of the accruing
conunissions.

Wages are very low in .Japan, particularly of the class that come to Canada, namely,
fishermen, domestic servants, farm and other labourers. Farm labourers are .said to
receive from 15 to 17 cents a day, fishermen 19 to 20 cents a day, domestic servants
f 1.40 to .SI. 50 a month, and other servants 80 cents a month.

THEIR HOMES.

It is said b\- a high authority, that tlie wants of the people are few and easily sup-
plied, their homes simple, their furniture limitefl and cheap, and their clothing scant
and inexpensive. Their Iwuses are of wood, light and aiiy and generally one storey
high, the floors are covered with mats anrl serve at once for seats and for beds ; a
Japanese simph' folding himself in his outer coat and stretching himself on the matted
floor : the window frames are movable, filled with oil paper instead of glass, the furni-
ture is on the same simple plan. Everywhere, howe\er, it is said you will admire the
cleanliness observed in these homes. One witness stated that an ordinary .Japanese
house would cost about 820.

THEIR EMPLOYMENT IN BRITISH COLUMBIA.

On arrival, the Japanese immigrant seeks work wherever unskilled labour is
employed, — as domestic servanjts, farm labourers, in getting out shingle bolts, wood,

390

nt'rOKT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

cordwood, aud in the mines to a limited extent. They are also emjilDved on the rail-
ways, in sawmills, shingle mills, boat building, and large numbers engage in fishing
during the season. A few are employed as taibjrs and in other trades. Their average
wage is tVom 90 cents to Si day. Their competition is keenly felt in the fisheries, in
the sawmills, and in getting out wood, shingle bolts and mining timber, in boat building
and to a less extent in the mines and railways. They are geneiallv regarded as more
dangerous competitors than the Chinese. It is said he adapts himself more readilv to
our civilization, that the Chinese will do the lowest kind of labour and stick to it, while
the Japanese will get higher if lie can. They live at a cost that enables them to work
for wages at which a white man cannot compete. They work under contract much as
the Chinese do, and are hired by the boss Japanese who takes the contract. He is often
a merchant or a regular contractor who makes his profits chiefly on the supplies furnished
the men. In no case do their wages appear to be higher than that paid to the Chinese
in the same calling, and in many places it is lower.

SANITATION.

On their first arrival there is the same difliculty in getting them to comply with
sanitary regulations that there is with the Chinese, but after a few citations before the
magistrate they are more attentive to the requirements of the law and give less trouble
in this regard.

Thev do not live in aggregations in a particular part of the town, as the Chinese
do, but their Imarding houses are frequently overcrowded to the same e.\tent.

CHAP. 11. PART I. THE FISHERIES.

Prior to 1896, comparatively few Japanese were engaged in the fisheries. In that
year we find 452 licenses were issued to Japanese.

In 1897 7S7 licenses.

1898 7(38

1899 930 "

1900 1,892 "

1901 1,9.58 ■'

This does not show the total number of Japanese engaged in the fisheries. In 1 900
542 licenses, and in 1901, 548 licenses were issued to canners : of these a considerable
number are given to Japanese ; about 2,000 licenses were held by the Japanese for the
years 1900 and 1901 ; there are two men to a boat, so that between four and five thou-
sand Japanese are engaged in the fisheries. This number ought to represent, and would
under normal conditions, represent, a population of from fifteen to twenty thousand peo-
ple, resident in the land, building up homes, supporting schools and churches, and form-
ing an integral part of a settlefl and civilized community. Nothing of this obtains
among the Jai>anese engaged in this industrv. Verv few indeed bring their wives with
them. Many of them return to Japan after the fishing season is over, and the rest find
employment where they can, in getting out wood and bolts, in mills, boat building and
other employments, working at a wage upon which a white man cannot decently support
himself and his family, and ci-eating a feeling so pronounced and bitter among a large
class of whites, as to endanger the peace and be a fruitful source of international irrita-
tion. Thus this great industry, instead of becoming a source of strength, is a source of
contention and weakness.

It is essential to the well-being of the community that a permanent class of fisher-
men be fostered, householders and residents upon the land, and, if possible, owners of
small holdings, who may by this natural industrv be assisted in making their liveliliood
and be enabled to support themselves and their families while clearing the land.

The evidence made it clear that the larger number of Jajianese become naturalized,
not to become citizens of the country, but to enable them to obtain fishermen's licenses.

ON CHiyESE AND JAPANESE IMMWIiATION 391

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Nearly the entire nuiiibei- of Japanese who liave become naturalized, take out fishing
licenses, and but few of those who <lo not take out licenses become naturalized.

THE NU.MHEH THAT ll.WK T.\KE\ OUT N.\TUR.\L1ZATI0N' PAPER.S.

Since 1896 over one thoiisand have become naturalized at Vancouver, as against
41)0 whites and K50 Chinese diuiiii;' the same period.

TOO MAW FiSHEK.MEN ON THE lilVEK.

The total number of licen.ses has increased from 3,533 in 1S9(5 to 4,722 in 1901, and
this increase has occurred principally upon the Eraser River. While the licenses
have increased by 1,189, the number of Japanese licenses has increased by 1,506.
Owing to this overcrowding many fishermen stated that they had to leave the
business. The bitter feeling among the fishermen, cau.sed by theii- being crowded
out by the Japanese, was much enhanced by the fact that grave irregularities,
if not actual fraud, were practised in obtaining certificates of naturalization by the
Japanese in very many cases. The fare is low, and many Japanese come o\er for the
fishing season and return in the fall. Many of these are engaged as pullers by the
Japanese fishermen, the regulations not r-equiring that boat pullers for fishermen should
be British subjects. Alany of these boat pullers who had not complied with the require-
ments of the law as to residence received naturalization papers.

A notary public, whose commission has since been revoked, referring to those who
had been naturalized, said that most of the.se people were boat pullers and had gone to
Japan and were now returning st> that thej' could get naturalized to go fishing. He
said that the mas.s of other affidavits that were taken to obtain naturalization papers
were of the same class.

Other evidence established the fact beyond all doubt that naturalization papers
were granted to Japanese that ought not to have been granted.

The assistant inspector of Fisheries stated that it occurred to him last year that a
great many Japanese had secured their citizen papers without complying with lawful
conditions. A perusal of the e\idence raises a strong presumption of fraurl.

WHITE FISHEKMEX FORCED OUT.

The fact that white fishermen are being forced out of this industry and that
Japanese are taking their places was clearly establislied. It works out in this way : In
a slrort season the fish caught are so few- in proportion to the number of fishermen that
it does not pay. When there is a big run so many fish are caught that the number
received by the canner is limited, and thousands are thrown away, and a lesser number
of fishermen could catch all the canneries can pack. In either case a lesser number of
fishermen and a lesser number of canneries on the Fraser River would benefit both the
the canners and the fishermen. (See Summary of Evidence, Part I, Chap. XV,
Canneries.)

It was stated by the canners that the adoption of trap nets on the American side
had greatly disturbed their business. The canning industry on Puget Sound is almost
wholly dependent on the run of salmon that winild otherwise enter the Fraser River,
and not only do they deplete the supply, but place their pack in competition with the
Fraser River canners in the markets of the world, although not to the same extent as
the Alaska jjack. It was further stated by the canners that the adoption of similar
methods on the Canadian side would greatly lessen the number of Japanese fishermen.

PROTEST BY INDIAN CHIEFS.

The chiefs of the difterent tribes of coast Indians of southern British Columbia gave
evidence before the Commission, and strongly pi'otested against the immigration of
Chinese and Japanese. They explained that when the white people came and took up

392 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

land.s and a.sked the Iiidian.s tu wurk they were iinicli pleased to get work and get
wages ; they had something to depend on, and were pleased that the white people were
living where the Indians could get work. When the Chinese came they brouglit no
family ; in a little while the Japanese came and they were worse than the Chinese, and
it seemed as if the Indians had no right to stay in the place at all. Formerly thev used
to get steady work all tlie time : now they cannot get regular employment, l)ecause of
the Japanese and Chinese.

The evidence quoted in. Chapter II — Protests of Indian Chiefs — fairly represents
the views of all. They favour keeping Chinese and Japanese out of the country, anrl
say that the Japanese are the worse of the two.

Probably one of the most important matters connected with this in(|uiry, is the
rapid manner in which the Japanese are getting control of the salmon fisheries of
British Columbia. The extent of the encroachment may be gathered fi'om the fact that
in 1S96 there were less than a thousand Japanese engaged in this industry, while in
1901 the number had increased to over four thousand. Should Japanese be permitted
to come into this country without restriction it cannot be doubted that this encroach-
ment will continue until the Japanese will have control of this business.

The general consensus of opinion given by both the fishermen and the canners would
indicate that this intlustry is not dependent for its existence upon the employment of
these people. The fact that this industry has exjianded to almost its present propor-
tions, employing only whites anrl Indians, would indicate that the presence of the
Japanese is not essential to its successful opei-ation. Tlie fisheries should be utilized to
promote the permanent settlement of the country, and at the same time create a hardy
class from whom may be drawn recruits for the mercantile marine and navy. The in-
creased numbers of the Japanese prevent this. They ccjme for a temporary purpose ;
they send a large proportion of their earnings to Japan : they do not bring their families
or make homes, or in any sense become permanent settlers, and an industry which
ought to be a source of strength to the country is rapidly falling into the hands of those
who exploit it for a temporary purpose to the exclusion of our own people and to the
permanent injury of the country.

In any event the rapid trend under existing conditions towards the monopolization
of the fishing by Japanese, folk>wed by the withdrawal of white men, on account of this
overcrowding and of the diminishing profits in the business, is a matter which deserves
most careful consideration. Salmon fishing has always aftbrded an opportunity for
remuneration much greater than could be obtained in the same time from inside work
which is done by the Chinese, and in this branch of the industry the Japanese are paid
exactly the same as white men. Whatever necessity there may or may Jiot be for Chin-
ese to do the canning work, there is undoubtedly much less reason for the Japanese fish-
ermen, who displace the white man at a white man's remuneration. It is bad enough
to have one branch of the industry entirely in the hands of an alien race, who do not
settle in the country, whose assimilation is impossible, and whose presence is accounted
for simply for the exploitation of the opportunites of labour and its remuneration ; but
when the other main branch of the industry — the one which is most profitable and
natural for full grown men to occupy, and is also the natural and necessary help for the
actual settler — is also filled by anijther alien people who, in so far as permanent settle-
ment and the general interest of the country is concerned, is ecjually undesirable, the
.seriousness of the situation can be understood.

Of the twenty thousand engaged in the industry at present one half are either
Chinese or Japanese. The number of Japanese is rapidly increasing. It is only a
question of time, under existing conditions until the industry is wholly in their hands,
and until it is only possible for our own jjeople to be interested in occupations and
employments incidental to the industry itself.

PART II.— BOAT BUILDING.

Boat building, especially that branch of the trade called into existence by the
salmon industry, is closely identified witli it. In the earlier period fishermen came from

ox CHIXESE AXD JAf'AXESE IMMIGUA TIOX 393

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

the Maritime Provinces, XewfouiKlland, !Sci)tlan(l and EurDpean countries and had been
trained to the business, and nianv ot" them were lioat builders as well as tishei-nien. As
the salmon industry increased the boats were built exclusively b\' white men, some firms
employing as many as ten boat builders paj'ing good wages and their business thus form-
ing an important adjunct to this great industry. The trade has now passed largely
into the hands of the Japanese, except the boats built by the one large firm of ship-
builders in Vancouver that employ G-t hands, exclusively union labour. The indivi-
dual boat builder of this class has practically been driven out of the field. The Japan-
ese who build the boats engage also in fishing.

The e\idence establishes the following facts :

That the white man without expensi^•e machinery cannot compete with the Japan-
ese in building fi.shing boats, and have been driven out of the business.

A large proportion of this class of boats are now built by the Japanese, many finding
employment in this business ; the rest are built at a factory where union wages are
paid.

The Japanese do not employ machinery : their boats are hand-built ; if they did
use machinery tlie manager of the boat factory declared that he could not compete,
and that if a company started who employed Japanese an<l used machinerj' he would
have to cut wages or shut down. If the selling price were reduced in the next four
years as in the last four years, the factory could not compete at the same wages and cost
of material.

While fishermen get cheaper fishing boats, they lose more than they gain by the
competition of Japanese fishermen.

All whites engaged in this business are opposed to furtiier immigration of Japanese.

The industry is a good illustration of the effect of oriental labour on white labour.
It developed into a thriving trade exclusively by white labour, giving employment to
large numbers of men that enabled them to live and sujjport their families. The fisher-
men paid g<;)od prices for their boats and did well in the fisheries. Tiie Japanese came
in, displaced to a large extent the labour emplo3-ed in this industry anrl entered into
competition witli the fishermen. He has driven out all labour except that employed in
the large machine fitted factor_v. Should the white men in the factories give place to
the Japanese labour the same argument might be presented as is now made in respect of
other industries, — the business cannot be carried on without cheap labour. Cheap labour
creates the condition which afterwards is said to make it necessary.

CHAP. Ill, PART I. TIIK LCMHER INDUSTRY.

The Japanese ai'e not emplo^-ed in lumber camps, except a few in building roads,
>i'c. There are employed in and about the mills on the coast, I'eferred to in the fore-
going table.

Whites 921

Japanese 161

Chinese 26.3

In the upper country there are comparatively few employed ; in most of the mills
none. For instance the Yale Mill Company, with its head otfice at Rossland, and con-
trolling the mills at Rossland. Xakusp, Cascade, Roche Creek and Deadwood, and
employing 200 men, employ no Japanese or Chinese in or about the mills. Neither
Japanese nor Chinese are employed in the mills at Nelson and Kaslo.

The Japanese are paid from 90 cents to 81.00 a day and board themsehes ; in a few
instances they are paid as high as SI. 2.5 a day. For unskilled white labour the average
is from .S1..50 to $2 and for semi-skilled from $2 to $2. -50, and skilled labour from
$2.-50 to S3. 50, and in a few instances 64.50 and $5, — the fact being that nearly, all
of the strictly common labour in and about the mills and yards is performed by the
Japanese and Chinese.

It may be noted here that the mills upon the .Sound with one exception employ
only white labour, and the average paid for unskilled labour is from .$1.75 to 82 a

394 REPORT OF ROYAL COifMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

clay, the larger number being employed at 82 a day, and for skillefl and semi-skilled
labour the wages run up to 83.50 and even 84 and 85 a dav.

It was alleged by some that the employment of Japanese and Chinese enabled the
mill owners to pay, and they did pay, higher wages to their white employees than are
paid in the mills on the Sound, but a careful c-ompariscm of the wages paid bv each does
not sustain this vie^v. Thev may \arv a little, but upon the whole the wages paid to
white labour appear to be rather higher c)n the Sound than are paid to white men in the
Canadian mills, and when you take into account the fact tliat no Japanese or Chinese
are employed on the Sound, the wages there paid are certainly higher than the wages
paid in British Columbia.

The Chinese are paid rather more than the J apanese, and for this, or some other
reason, the Japanese have in a number of cases filled the places formerly occupied by
Chinese. As a rule they only perform the work of unskilled labour, but in some ca-ses
thev have taken the places of sawyers and do other work reciuiring more or less skill.

The mill owners differ as to the expediency of shutting them out. The manager of
the largest exporting mill thinks we have plenty of them here now. Many of the other
managers agree with him : but othei'S, while admitting that there are sufficient in the
country to meet the present demand, feai- that theie might in the future be a scarcity if
no more came in.

The evidence establishes the following facts ;

That the Japanese are employed in the coast mills approximately in the proportion
of C)ne to four.

That they have to a considerable extent taken the place of Chinese at a slightly less
wage.

That they are employed as unskilled labourers in and about the mills, and in some
instances are employed as sawyers and for other skilled work.

That their wages vary from 85 cents to 81. "25 per diem, the average being about
81 per day, or a little less.

That there is a sufficient supply to meet the demands at the present time and for
some years to come.

That thev work for a wage at which it would be impossible foi- a white man to
sujiport himself and his family with comfort, or even decency.

That thev are enabled to work for this low wage by their manner of li\ing. Except
in very few instances they do not bring their families with them. They frequently li\e
together, somewha^ similar to the Chinese, but have a reputation of being more cleanly.

That they are more dangerous competitors to white labour than the Chinese, because
they are more energetic and pushing, work at even a less wage, live as cheaply, and are
said to be ipiicker at learning our language and picking up our ways, itc.

P.\RT II SHINGLE HOLTS, MINING TIMliEJ! AND CORDWOOD.

At certain seasons of the year, when not engaged in tishiiig, there are approximately
a thou.sand Japanese employed in getting out shingle bolts, cordwood and mining timljer
for ^lexico.

The whites and Indians have been practically driven out of the business, and the
Chinese ha%'e been largely superseded.

Last February se\eral hundreds of Japanese were engaged in cutting cordwood on
Mavne Island. They delivered it free on board the scows at from ■■?1.S0 to 82 a cord.
The Japanese contractors make little profit at these figures. Their profits are chiefly on
supplies which thev furnish their men. ^

A few years ago white men got out aU the timljer for Mexico mines. This is now
done bv Japanese under Japanese contractors. Several cargoes ai-e taken out each year.

Shingle bolts are chiefly gotten out by Japanese under Japanese contractors, the
contractor receiving 5 cents a cord as his jirofit and the jn-ofit im the supplies which he
furnishes.

ON CJnyKSE AXl) JAPAXESE IMMK.'J.'ATJO.V 395

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

One tiini ciifiaged in the manufacture of shinnies paid out S-ti,!)*)!) for sliinj;lc bolts,
of which 836,000 was paid to Chinese and Japanese, chiefly Japanese, and ••?4,(I00 to
white men.

The Japanese work more cheajilv than the Chinese and aie rapidly dri\ ini; them
out of these fields of industry. Their manner of livinj; in camps is \ei-y similar to that
of the Chinese and a white man cannot compete with them.

Fi'om the e\idence of some of the shingle manufacturers it did seem at first that it
would be difficult to carry on the business exce])t through the agency of this cheap
labour, without cutting the prices of the white men who are still engaged in the liusi-
ness, but subseiiuent e\ idence from a large manufacturer of shingles established the fact
that it was cheaper to get out shingle bolts in the log, exclusively by white men, than
to buy shingle bolts, even from Japanese, and this has been found to be so in the mills
in Washington State. There are some places doubtless where this method could not be
advantageously adopted.

The employment of so many Japanese in this business has largely displaced white
labour and has fuither increased the difficulty which small landholders have in making
a li\ ing. It practically prevents him fi'om realizing something from his wood and
timber and from utilizing his time to the best advantage and so assisting him in sup-
porting his family during the tedious and expensive process of clearing the land.

Formerly shingle bolts and cordwood were chiefly gotten out by white labour. All
this is being changed : the white man is practically driven from this field, and its effect
upon the settlement of the country is undoubtedly very serious.

The condition of the Japanese sometimes is that of absolute want. The pro\incial
innnigration agent stated that on their arrival at Mayne Island last ^-ear to connnence
wood-cutting they were without supplies and subsisted for some time on clams and
thistle roots and what«\er game and fish they could secure, and altogether had a
wretched existence. This perhaps may arise from the fact that after the fishing season
is over, several thousands of Japanese are without employment at a .season of the year
when there is least demand for labour, and if the fishing season happens to be short, as
it was last year, it necessarily leaves many of them without employment and without
means of subsistence. They work, therefore, in getting out shingle bolts, cordwoofi,
mining timber, I'i.-c., for what they can get.

The normal condition between labour and capital is deranged iind will contiinie to
be, if this large innnigration of unskilled labour should continue.

I'llAP. IV. OTHER OC€UP.\TIONS.

1. The Mining Induntry. — At the Union mines 102 Japanese were employefl, as
miners, helpers, runners, drivers, timbering men, blacksmiths and labourers, above and
below ground. Seventy-seven are employed below ground and 25 above ground. (Jnly
three Japanese are employed at the Extension Mine. They are not em[iloyed at the
Fernie !ilines, nor at the New Vancouver Coal Company's Mines at Xanaimo.

As thev are employed to onlj' a limited extent in one coal mine, anrl undei' the
.same general management thev are not employed in others, it is impossible to say that
they are necessary for this industry, but if they are the supply is abundant.

The Japanese have not been employed in these mines either in the Kootenay
district or elsewhei-e on the mainland. From -tO to 60 were employed at Texada Island.
They worked in the mine and above ground. They were discharged. The cause of
dismissal alleged was an increased cost of production. The output was too small. It
did not pay. The only mine in which they are now employed so far as we could learn
was a mine at ]Mount Sicker, 45 miles from Victoria, where from 30 to 35 are employed
in sorting ore. The manager of this mine says : I think there are sufficient numbers of
Japanese here now to meet the demands. I think there are enough of the Chinese and
Japanese here at the present time. No serious inconvenience would arise to out business
if no more were allowed to come in. It is now liTve a tap ; when you want water j'ou
turn it on and when you have enough you turn it off.

396 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The number of Japanese employed in tlie metaliferoiis mines is insignificant, and it
cannot be said that this industiy is dependent upon their labour to any considerable
extent.

The Japanese have displaced Chinese labour in the Cariboo Consolidated hvilraulic
mine where, as the e\idence shows, about 109 are employed.

,.'. Raihcays. — Japanese are employed upon the Canadian Pacific Railway in British
Columbia to a limited extent. The number varies in different seasons of the year.
Seventy are employed steadily : 30 as section men and 40 on extra gang work. At
certain seasons of the year as many as 300 more are employed. Nearly five thousand
men are employed in this division.

The general superintendent stated that tlie Company was not interested in
empk)ving Oriental labour if it could get white labour-. He did not think, however,
that a white man with a family could li\-e on what the Company paid the Japanese.
He stated that the Company did not encourage white men with families to come in for
section work. He declared that the Japanese is a better man than the Italian.

It is plain that the numbers employed on the Canadian Pacific Railway in
comparison with the whole number of employees on the western division is small, and
it can scarcely be urged that the successful operation of the railway is dejjendent upon
this class of labour.

■i. Sealing. — Japanese are employed to a limited extent in this industry ; being
good sailors, they are shipped when white men are scarce as common seamen or boat
pullers. No serious inconvenience could be occasioned this industry by the restriction
of further immigration of .Japanese.

4. Domestic Service. — It may be here mentioned that while a considerable number
of Japanese are employed as domestic servants and chore boys they are not employed
nearly to the same extent in that capacity as the Chinese are, and their wages as a rule
are much lower.

The extent to which Japanese are employed in farming, land clearing, and other
minor industries is briefly referred to in Chapter lY, 'Other Occupations,' but for a
proper ui:derstanding of conditions in these industries reference may be made to the
chapters on the subject in Part I, where they are fully dealt with. The opinions therein
expressed regai'ding Chinese labour apply ei[ually to Japanes'', to the extent of their
employment. •

EMIGRATION .STOPPED.

The emigration of Japanese has for the present practically ceased, only 56 having
arrived at Canadian ports in the last six months of 1901. This is doubtless owing to
instructions giv?n to local authorities hy the Minister of State for Foreign Affairs for
Japan, instructing them to prohibit entirely the emigration of Japanese labourers destined
for Canada oi- the Ignited States. The Commission was favoured by a copy of these
instructions, through the Japanese Consul at Vancouver, which is as follows :

[No. t).59]. Department of Foreign Affairs,

ToKio, August 2, 1900.

To the GovEHNOKs of the Prefectures :

You are hereby instructed to prohibit entirely, for the time being, the emigration of
Japanese labourers for the Dominion of Canada or ftir the United States.

YTSCOUNT AOKI,

Minister of Foreign Affairs.

ox CHINESE AX/) JAI'AXESE IMMICRA TIOX 397

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

PAKT II -CONCLUSION.

Ill endeavouring to con\ey an idea of the kind of emigrant the Japanese of the
labouring class is, it will be convenient to point out first wherein he rliffers from the
Chinese of the same clas.s. He is more independent, energetic, apt, and ready and
anxious to adopt, at least in appearance, the manneis and mode of life of tlie white man.
He avails himself of every opportunity to learn English, and often makes it a condition
of his contract of hiring that he may flo so. It is said he i.s not as reliable in respect of
contracts as the Chinese are, and that, while adoj)ting to a certain extent our habits of
life, he more readily falls into the vices of the white man than the Chinaman does.

As we said of the Chinaman, he has a different standard of morals from ours, and
what has been said of the one in this regard applies to the other ; and ex<,-ept for
breaches of the sanitary by-laws, the absence of convictions would inflicate that he is
law-abiding. He often works for less wages, and hi some important industries driving
out the Chinaman. He comes without wife or family, and on a passport which reniiires
him to return within three years, for which he ^has to give bonds before leaving. He
does not contribute to the support of schools or churches or the building up of homes.
He seek.s employment in all kinds of unskilled labour, and works at a wao-e that all
admit is wholly inadequate for the support of a white man and his family ; and while
the Japanese do not live in one particular quarter of the city or town, they are given to
over-crowding in boarding houses, and the fact that they are adult males without family
enables them to live in a manner and at a cost wholly incompatible with the home-life
of a white working man who has a family. Coming as they do for a limited period, and
very often only remaining a part of the year and returning again for tlie season when
the_y can obtain employment, they cari-y away with them their earnings, are of the least
possible value to the community, jiay iio fair jiroportion of the taxes of the country, and
are a keener competitor in all the avenues of unskilled laVjour than the Chinese. Their
presence in large numloers delays the settlement of the country and keeps out intending
settlers ; and all that has been said in this regard with reference to the Chinese applies
with equal, if not greater force, to the Japanese. There is a cleai- distinction to be
drawn between immigrants who, if otherwise desirable, come with their familie.s to make
Canada tlieir home, and that class of immigrants who come for a limited period only,
intending to return within a short jseriod and take their savings with them. They con-
tribute in small degr-'^e to that support and interdependence upon which the stability
and prosperity of a community depends, and they withdraw to the extent of their
savings the value of the product of the natural industries, and i-ender it more ditiicult
for the permaneni settler of all classes, except possibly the employer, to obtain a living
or to carry on his trade or calling with success.

The consensus of opinion of the people of British Columbia is that they do not and
cannot assimilate with white people, and that while in some respects they are less un-
desiraljle than the Chinese, in that they adopt more readily our habits of life anrl spend
more of their earnings in the country, yet in all that goes to make for the permanent
settlement of the country they are quite as serious a; menace as the Chinese and keener
competitors against the working man, and as they have more energy, push and indepen-
dence, more dangerous in this regard than the Chinese.

As directly bearing upon this question we beg to refer to the following despatches
from the Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies to the Governor General of
Canada : —

Downing Street, July 20, 1898.
Governor General,

The Right Honourable

The Earl of Aberdeen, P.C, G.C.M.G.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatches of the numljers and
dates noted in the margin, in which you forwarded copies of various communicatiinis
received by you from the Japanese Consul for Canada respecting tlie anti-Japanese
legislation ivcently ])assed by the legislature of British Columbia.

398 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

2. I sliall be glad if you will lose nt) time in transmitting, in accoiflance with the
request contained in my telegram of June IS, copies of the Acts to which M. iShiniizu
takes exception, together with the obser\ ations of your ministers thereon.

3. In the meantime I have to retjuest that you will impress upon vour ministers
that restrictive legislation of the type of which the legislation in (juestion appears to be,
is extremely repugnant to the sentiments of the people and Government of Japan, and
you should not fail to impress upon them the importance, if there is any real prospect of
a large influx of Japanese labourers into Canada, of dealing with it h\ legislation of the
Dominion Parliament on the lines of the accompanying Natal Act, which is likely to be
generally adopted in Australia.

(Sfi' Appendix for copy of Natal Act.)

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

DowxiNc Street, i'ird March, 1^99.

Governor Genex'al,

Tlie Right Honourable

The Earl of Mixto, G.C.M.G., etc., .tc, .tc.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch No, 40, of Febru-
ary 27, forwarding copy of a letter from the Japanese Consul at Vancouver in which
he calls attention to certain measures which have been introduced into the legislative
assembly of British Columbia during its present session prohibiting the employment of
Japanese and renewing witli regard to these measures the objections which he urged
against the legislation of the same nature passed by the legislature of that prcivince last
year.

2. Her ^lajesty's Government must regret to find the Government and Legisla-
ture of British Columbia adopting a course which is justly regarded as offensive bya
friendlv power, and thev hope that your ministers will be able to arrange for the can-
cellation of the objectionable provisions and the substitution of a measure which, while
it will secure the desired exclusion of undesirable immigrants, will obtain that result
by means of some such genei-al test as that already suggested in my despatch No. 214,
of July 20, 189S. In any case, Her ^Majesty s Government strongly deprecate the
passing of exceptional legislation affecting Japanese already in the Province.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

Colonial Office to thk Goverxor General.

Dowxix(; Street, April 19, 1899.
The Governor General,

itc, itc, &c.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch No. hi, of March
16, forwarding copy of an apprt)ved minute of the Dominion Privy Council to which is
appended an approved report of the Executive Council of British Columbia, expressing
the concurrence of the Government of that province in a report drawn up by the
IMinister of Finance and Agriculture on the subject of the Acts passed by the provin-
cial legislature in 1898, containing provisions prohibiting the employment of Japanese
on certain w-orks.

2, The provincial government represent that these provisions are required by the
economic conditicms of British Columbia and they regret their inability to introduce
legislation for their repeal.

3. Her ]SIajesty's Go^•ernment fully appreciate the motives which have induced the
Government and legislature of British Columbia to pass the legislation under consi-
deration, and recognize the importance of guarding against the possibility of the white
labour in the province being swamped by the wholesale immigration of persons of
Asiatic origin. Thev desire also to acknowledge the friendly spirit in which the repre-
sentations thev have felt compelled to make ha\"e been recei\ed by the Government of

ox CHINESE A XT) JAPAXESE IMMIGRATIOX 399

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

British Columbia, and regiet that after carefull}- con.sideriiig the minute of the Execu-
tive Coun' il they feel unable to withdraw the objections they have urged to the legisla-
tion in ([uestion.

4. There is no difference between Her Majesty's Government and the Government
of British Columbia as regards the object aimed at by these laws, namely, to ensure
that the Pacitic province of the Dominion shall be occupied by a large and thoroughly
British population rather than by one in which the number of aliens largely pi-edomin-
ates, and many of tlie flistincti\e features of a settled British conniiunity are lacking.

5. The ground of the objection entertained by Her ^Majesty's Government is that
the method employed by the British Columbia Legislature for securing this object,
while admittedly only partial and ineffective, is such as to give legitimate offence to a
power with which Her Majesty is, and earnestly desires to remain on friendly terms.
It is not the practical exclusion of Japanese to which the Government of the Mikado
objects but their exclusion mmiinatim, which specifically stamps the wliole nation as
unfiersirable perso' s.

(3. The exclusion of Japanese sul)jects either from the province or from employment
on public or quasi pulilic works in the province by the operation of an educational test,
such as is embodied in the Natal Immigration Law is not a measure to which the
government of Japan can take exception. If the particular test in that law is not
regarded as sufficient, there is no reason why a more stringent and effective one of a
similar character should not be adopted, so long as the disijualification is not based
specifically on distinction of race or colour.

7. Any attempt to restrict immigration oi- to impose dis(iualifications on such dis-
tinctions besides being offensive to friendly powers is contrary to the general principles
of equality wliich have been the guiding principle of British rule throughout the empire ;
and, as your ministers are aware. Her Majesty's Government were unalile to allow the
Immigration Restriction Laws passed by some of the Australasian ct)lonies in 1896 to
come into operation for the same reasons as tiiey are now urging against these laws in
British Columbia.

8. Her Majest3''s Government earnestly trust that on consideration of these
explanations the Go\ernment of British Columbia will at once procure the repeal of
the provisions ccjiiiplained of and the substitution of legislation on the lines indicated
above.

9. If this is impossible. Her Majesty's Government feel compelled, however reluc-
tant they maj' be to cause inconvenience to the province, to press upon your ministers
the importance in the general interests of the empire of using the powers vested in
them by the British North America Act, for cancelling these measures to which Her
^Majesty's Government object on grounds both of principle and policy.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

Your Commissioners fully appreciate the action taken by the Government of Japan
on August 2, 1900, whereby the Governors of the Prefectures of Japan were
instructed to prohibit entirely ior the time being the emigration of Japanese labourers
for the Dominican of Canada. It is stated in a pamphlet purporting to be published by
the Japanese Consul at Vancou\er : ' the principal reason for the measure thus taken was
to avoid any friction that might occur by allowing them to come into British Columbia
where their immigration was not desired bj- a certain element of that province,' and
that ' the Go\ernment of Japan wholly stoppefl the issuance of passports to any intend-
ing emigrants for Canada since the first of August last (1900), and still continues to do
so, under a pi-ovision of the Immigration Protection Law. (Law No. 70, 1896.)'

The course adopted by the Japanese Govei-nment, if we may without presumption
be permitted to say so, is most opportune, eliminating all cause of friction and irritation
between Canada and Japan, and so favouring a freer tra'de anrl intercourse between the
countries than could otherwise obtain.

Nothing further is needed to settle this most difficult ([uesti<in upon a fii-m basis
than some assurance that the action already taken by the Government of Japan will
not lie revoked.

400 REPORT OF ROYAL COilMISHIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Yuur Commissioners ilesire to express their earnest hope that in tlie eontinuaiie'e of
this friendly policy, legislation on this subject by the Canadian Government may be
rendered unnecessary. Should, however, a change of policy be adopted in this regard
bv the Japanese Government whereby Japanese labourers may again be permitted to
emigrate to Canada, the welfare of the Province of British Columbia imperatively
demands that eifeetive measures lie adopted to take the place of the inhibition now
imposed by the Japanese Go\ernment.

Your Commissioners reconnnend that, in that event, an Act be passed by the
Dominion Government on the lines of what is known as the Natal Act, made sutficiently
stringent and effective to accomjilisli the desirefl result.

R. C. CLUTE, Chairman,
D. J. MANN,
C. FOLEY.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 401

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

APPENDIX.

Address of Mr. R. Cassidy, K. C.

Report of United States Commissioner upon Japanese Immigration.

Wages in Japan, 1897.

The Natal Act.

ADDRESS OF MR. R. CASSIDY. K. C, OX BEHALF OF THE .JAPANESE.

Mr. Cassidy, K.C., in addressing the Coniniission, said : Having to leave bv boat
to-day, I ha%e to request to be lieai-d first. I represent the Japanese in this connnun-
ity before this Rota! Commission. The gi)vernment of .Japan, as it happens, is well
represented in commercial matters by an able consul, Mr. Shimizu. Anv remarks which
I may make on tlie evidence will no doubt be received by the Conniiission in the .same
spirit as that in which thev are offered, and in the same kindly spirit evinced bv the
Commission throughout this investigation. The .Japanese desire to thank the Commis-
sioners for the invariable courtesy we have received, whatever the result may be, what-
ever the report may be, and whatever course parliament may see fit to take after the
investigation upon receivang the report of the Commission. I feel that the report can-
not be otherwise than just to all of those concerned, and I am satisfied that the indus-
trial interests of the country will receive great advantage from the evidence which has
been placed before the Commission. The considerations upon which the .Japanese rely,
as rendering necessary the presence of this class <:)f labour in the Province of British
Columbia, have been fully and fairly put before the Conmiission. We all know that
for some years past the presence of the Chinese here, and more recently the .Japanese,
has been the object of considerable agitation. While agitation is to be commended when
it has for its aim the protection of the community at large, it very often happens that
the circumstances on one side are very fully presented, while the considerations on the
other side are paid little attention to ; that is to sa}% the views of those who are not in
the habit of gathering together to exchange opinions are not presented as fully as those
of members of organizations banded together for the purpose of the propagation of their
peculiar views of labour, political or economic questions. Business men, as a rule, are
not in the habit of airing their views in public ; therefore, I say it cannot be considered
otherwise than as fortunate, that the investigation should have taken place, and have
been as wide in its scope as it has been made by this Commission— all parties having had
the fullest opportunity of presenting their views and of giving the facts which they con-
sidei-ed went to supjwrt their different contentions. I also think it must be a matter of
surprise to many people who have been accustomed to regard this tpiestion from one
standpoint to find men who are in actual business, who are well acipiainted with the
country and its commercial life, who are deeply interested in the welfare and prosperity
of the country, come forward and make such statements as they have done before this
Commission ; and, on the other hand, it is well to have had the opposing views presented,
and the grounds stated upon which those who are opposed to the orientals base their
objections.

It seems to me necessary to take rather a wide view of the subject. The scope of
tlie Commission is wide enough to consider the question in all its Ijearings. Parliament
54—26

402 HE FORT OF KOYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

will tluis Ije enabled to take a comprehensive view of the ulmle matter and decide intelli-
gently what steps ought to be taken in the circumstances : and take into consideration
the etfect of anv legislation proposed to be applied. It is impossible therefoie to get
awav from the international question, and the Imperial question which stands alongside
of it. It is impossible to get away from considerations rlictated bv the coniitv of
nations, or to be blind to the important considerations of international [lolicv. which
govern civilized nations in dealing with each other. One of the first things Canada
will have to consider is : What is the (losition which the British Empire takes with
reward to matters of the sort ? We all know that Great Britain is the champion of the
open door ; that the great empire of which we form a part has always made it her boast,
that her territory is open to the citizens of every country ; that her territory has afforded
a liome and a livelihood to the people and even to the exiles of all other countries. We
have also to take into consideration the cjuestions that have more particular reference to
the Japanese. As a people the Japanese have made great strides in civilization ; or
rather, thev have always been a civilized people, but have improved their civilization ;
their pi:>rts have been opened to Europeans, and they have profited by the intercourse,
and they have adopted the methods of Eurojiean powers : their course in the last few
years has been one of extraordinary and gratifying progress ; they are accredited to all
civilized powers. We all know that instead of clinging tenaciously to ancient laws they
ha\e adopted laws based on the laws of England and the civil laws of Rome. The)'
ha\e adoj)ted a constitution : their form of government is similar to our own. In
international intercourse and courtesy they have been guided by higli ideals, which I
am free to say cannot be improved, being founded on the course a(U)pted by our own
great Empire. The course of events in the east is tending towards the civilization and
the opening up of the great Empire of China ; any general Chinese war will inevitably
be followed by the adoption of our industrial methods and the spread of our commerce
in that country, and return commerce will be conducted in the near future on European
methods. So far with regard to China. With regard to Japan, that has all taken
place : Japanese merchants trade with our merchants ; not content with existing facili-
ties by foreign vessels they have established a line of theii- own, as fine a line of steamers
as runs on the Pacific Ocean, running from Seattle to Japanese ports. It is freely
.stated, l)y men who know, that the great development of late of the Port of Seattle is
very lartcelv due to the trade with Japan : and it is well known that the trade of our
own province with Ja[)an is very considerable, coming by the Canadian Pacific Railway
.steamers and other ships. We all know that in the recent crisis in China the presence
of Japanese troops substantially saved the situation. It was stated in the London
Times that the missionaries received protection and assistance from the Japanese. And
liow did Japan act at a period when other people stood aloof or attacked us, not by force
of arms but in insidious ways exhibited their animosity. Japan truly exhibited a wise
attitude of friendship towards us. And what was the spirit displayed by the Japanese
in British Columbia at the time troops were being raised for South Africa ? They
offered to raise and equip a coips from among their own people, and send them to
South Africa. It was considered l)y the Minister of Militia wise not to accept the propo-
sition. Now, it is an understood principle of international comity that when one nation
t)pens its poits freely to the people of any other civilized nation, the other nation shall
act on the same principle. It is a rule of practice, although it may not be an absolute
ol)li<;ation. No rule of international courtesy can be said to be an absolute obliga-
tion. We all know that fair and even-handed reciprocity is not always ^ealt out ;
and that the directing principles in accordance with the doctrine of even-handed reci-
procity are not always recognized, but we should assume that while as a nation we
■receive courtesy and friendly intercourse and welcome from another nation, that imposes
some obligation on us to refrain from legislation ilirected against its people.

It seems to me necessary first to take a view of the condition of British Columbia.
It is the best of all the provinces in Canada. It is the richest in material re.sources —
forest, field and fiood, its metaliferous ledges and mountains all contribute to its prosperity.
It is also a province in which the working man has a wide field for the ap])lication and
development of his skill and energy. At the present moment the wages of workmen

O.V CHIXESE AXI> JAPAXESE IMMIORATIOX 403

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

liere are infinitely jj;iviiter tluui in any dtlici- part of Canada. That arises from the
ctinditiiin that, besides eni|ili)ynient to l)e found in all the yreat staple industries, thei-e
are hundreds of opportunities for individual ett'oit, almost limitless op]iortunities for
improvement and ad\ancenient held out to e\ery man who conies here. Because of the
wonderful resources of the pi-o\ince, large .sums of money have heen spent In each year to
liring skilled workmen from England and from eastern points. Tliese men have invai-i-
ably jumped at the tempting ofters they received and the opportunities presented of
bettering themselves : but it has in\ariably been found they were not anv too willing
to fulfil their obligations. In the case of ilr. Dunsmuir the experiment was made at a
cost of something like $15,000 of substituting white men for Chinamen in his coal
mines — not under pressure of law.s or of public opinion, but because he wished to try the
experiment. The men were brought here, and as the evidence shows, thinking they
could do better on the other side, left, anfl left their obligations unfulfilled. The experi-
ment was profitless tu those who spent money upon it. That, of course, is an extraor-
flinary eonditit)n of aft'airs. It is a fact that in this province there aie vast undeveloped
res<:)ui-ces ; that, while apparently there is money tt) be made here, capital is \ery chary
of investment ; it is a hard matter to get enough capital to keep the established indus-
ti'ies afoot, owing to the high Cost of labour. It affords food foi' serious reHection. We
all know there are highly %aluable mines in the province, that if worked would average
from $10 to $15 a ton ; and we all know that, owing to the high price of labour, there
are only one or two paying mines working to-day : and the difficulty is accentuated
owing to the scarcity of labour. In the fir.st place it is hard to get, when got it is
extremely expensive — $3.50 a day in the mines, and the labour is of an unsatisfactory
character, t)wing to the extreme independence of the workmen. They have great
advantages, and they are difficult to control. They are hereto-day, and away to-morrow,
and it is almost impossible to carry on the industry.

Now, the Japanese at pi-esent are not very great in numbers according to the best
estimate I can make — something about 6,000 Japanese are now in the pro\ince ; but I
do not put that as being \ery important, because it may be said, well Japanese will
come in in the future ; it is possible more may come, most of whom — abt)ut 2,450 — are
engaged in fishing, and the remainder are workers in mills, or in other industrial enter-
prises, a considerable number of farm labourers and coal miners, a small but increasing
number of domestic servants, also a spi-inkling of merchants in the different cities, and
a few handici'aftsmen, including tailors. Now, it has been suggested among other
things by my learned friend, Mr. Wilson, that no industry has been called into existence
by the presence of these people. Well, that may very well be. It is not every day
that an entirely new industry is discovered in the world. Most of the industries in the
province have l>een started years ago ; and the question is whether we have been al)le to
develop those industries by cheap labour, which the Japanese offer ; and there is also a
more important question, whether the industries which are at present in our midst could
stand were we to withdraw that class of labour. If they coukl not stand it would be
most flisastrous to the province, and to the country, to attempt its exclusion. Now, the
main industries of the jiroxince are tlie lumbering and fishing — including the canneries,
mineral mining and ct)al mining, the metaliferous mines being \ery rich — and the culti-
vation of the land. What I am now arguing I am arguing solely from the standpoint
of the interest of the country. I am not at present considering the question whether it
is in the interest of the white workmen of the country who say the oriental should be
excluded. Upon that point I hold very strong views ; I hold the opinion that the
exclusion of the oriental would be distinctly detrimental to the white workman in the
pro\-ince. That is a question upon which there may be more competent judges than I am.
It is foi' political economists ami the statesmen of the country to decide. It does not at
all follcjw because one body of men say it is so that it is so. Now, with regard to the
lumber industry, it is a curious fact that the white men who are employed in the lumber
industry in British Columbia, take them man for man, are better paid than men in
similar places to the south of us — that is to .say, in the State of Washingtim. Now, it
has been put by some people that the reason of that is that it is an economic law that
the cost of living regulates the scale of wages. I submit the view that this is only so in
54— 26tV

404 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

thicklv populated districts where tliere is plenty of labcmr ott'eriiifi — where laliour is
Huid. Wherever that is the ease all you have to do is to lind out, to ascertain the Liwest
possible cost at which men can live ; thev compete with each other to that point, down
to the star%'ation point : but, liowever much that may apply in England and in some poi-ts
oi the great nation to the south of us, we find that it does not ap|ily in this province. We
find there is not a single industry in which any class of labour in our province is forced to
a living wage. We find, in other words, that the rate of w ages for ordinary unskilled wijrk-
men in this province is about 8- a day. It is quite tiue there are in certain industries,
certain classes of work which there is no necessity for the white man to do at all. which
are undertaken cheaper liv the oriental than the white man : but even with i-egard to the
orientals they are not for a moment forced down to a living wage. If the orientals were
to work for what is to them a living wage, that might be an injury. We all know these
men get from $1.00 to si. 50 a day. This province is alway.s spoken of as a place wliere
it is expensive to live. Ordinarily speaking, and in the proper sense, it is not expensive;
but it is a place where ordinary workmen are not content with ordinary, humble fare,
but live at greater expense than the same class in the east. Carpenters here get from
§3.00 to 83.50 a day ; they live up to their income, and live expensively. The staples
of life are not, in a broad sense, more expensive here than anywhere else. I refer to
that merely for the purpose of showing that while it is said tliat workmen are paid less
in the State of Washington because tliey can live cheaper over there, my own view is
that thev cannot live cheaper over there. With regard to the staples of life, such a
place as Seattle is more expensive : while some things may be had cheaper otlieis are a
great deal dearer. To return to that, Mr. ilcNair, who was a witness of the greatest
importance, because his firm has mills on both sides of the line, he is in a position to
speak about the matter. He says they do not pay as nnich to their labour in the United
States, where thev employ only white labour, as they do here ; and he also said, if you
will remember — and it was corroborated by every witness who spoke in the lumber
trade — that it is the case here, that they are enabled to employ a certain proportitm of
cheap labour, at a lower rate per month, manual labour in the mill — that thereViy they
are enabled, having the rough, unskilled labour at a cheap rate, to pay the white
men who occupy the positions requiring superior skill in the mills, better wages. The
white men exceed the orientals in numbers, and those white men are better paid than
they would be if only white labour were emjiloyetl in the mill. The whole questitm is an
econc)mic and commercial one. There are large mills to the south of us who make of
this pro\ince a slaughter market for their over-production. It is unfortunate our
own lumbermen are not protected even in their own market. The result of that is, Ixitli
with regard to the export and home trade, that they are driven into unequal and, there-
fore, unfair competition with the mill owners to the .south of us. The consequence of
that is, in order to live, our men over here, our raanufacturei's, are of necessity compelled
to keep their expenses down to the same figures as those of the maimfactures to the
south of us. They point out that manufacturers of lumber in the United States have
the advantage of us in several respect.s. They ha\ e a great home market, from 70.O0O.000
to 80,000,000 people, with no customs wall. Then they have the advantage of
cheajier machinery. We know that in jiraetice as to machinery here, a great part of it
is brought from the United States, and that almost everything that enters into the cost
of production is cheaper over there, except hjgs. That being the state of affairs, it is
necessary that we shoukl obtain, in some respect, advantage — and that one respect is the
matter of labour, at least they would like to have it so ; but in point of fact they do
not get that ; .so i-eallv it is a wonder they can continue to \\\e at all : and we are not
surprised to hear, one after the other, come up here and say tliey are not making money
at all, that it was a hard matter even to keep the mills open until within the last year
or so, when things have been a little better. Now, that is not the woi-st of it. They
might manage to get along without the orientals if they had a class of white labour in
such numbers that directly an opening offered it would fall in at a reasonable wage.
Now, there has never been an offering in British Columbia of a bofiy of white labour to
fill the places as they become vacant, \\ ith the labour market in a fluid condition ; so
that, for instance, if a mill wanted 100 men they could get them. I am referring to the

ox CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMICHA TlOX 405

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

sort of laliour whifh is ie<iuiie(l tram day to day, the lower class of labour whicli some
exigency or rush of business may re(|uire in a larger number. Now, there is no Huid
white labour oflfei'ing in Britisli Columbia to fill such an exigency as that.

Then Mr. Alexander gave e\idence, which you will remember. He put it strongly
anil clearlj- ; he said it was aljsolutely necessary that this cheai> lal))ur should be eni-
ployed in the mills here, so that the larger proportion of white labour should be kept
busy. Then Mr. Hackett tells you that for two j-ears he tried t<;> run with white labour
only, but he could not keep it up, and he had to get cheap labour of some sort. Then Mr.
Heaps said — I still refer to the Kepurt of the e\"idence in the newspaper — some of the
machines at which a man could earn from three or four dollars a day were idle because
of inability to pi-ocure sufficient w liite labour of the lowest kind. Now, every one of those
manufacturers has pointed out to you that while the proportion of Japanese employed is
relatively small compared to the white that the proportion of wages paid to them was
still smaller in proportion to their numbers. Now, it seems to me to be clear then, if
we are to accept the statement of the saw mill and shingle mill men, tliat under exist-
ing conditions they are unable to get along without that class of labour ; and, taking into
consideration that these men are not afforded protection e\en in their own market, by
the government, that this is made a slaughter market for American over-production, I
urge that it would be an exceedingly cruel thing, and one which ought not to l)e con-
templated for a moment, to debar tiiem from the employment of this cheap labour. Of
course it is a cpiestion whether it would be any advantage to our own white workmen
to make the alteration, when the conditions are such, when the competition in the market
is such that these mill men cannot afford to pay more wages. If that is true, if they are
obliged to employ white men, who cannot be got for less than two dollars a day, and
very few at that — the average white man cannot be got for less than .f'2.50 a day,
because of his peculiar position of independence here, owing to the great opportunities
oftered him because of prosijecting and mining and other things, — I say if these mill
men were compelled to hire wjiite men for the lower class of unskilled labour at these
wages, they would have to go out of existence. Isn't it better to have the mills here
under such circumstances that they can exist and employ a large number of white men ?
Isn't the advantage largely in favour of leaving the thing as it is — and that is it not
aljsoluteiy impossible, from an economic standpoint to alter it ; and is it not folly to
suggest there is anything injurious to our own people in the condition as it exists?

Now, in regard to the cannery business, I am not interested in that, except in so
far as it relates to the fishing. The Japanese ai'e fishermen. The cannery men say
they cannot get along without the Chinese inside the canneries. The suggestion is that
there are too many fishermen, and that the keen competition .among them renders it
impossible for them to make a living. It is to be said that the parliament of Canada,
and you j,'entlemen as its advisers, are going to report — and make a law in this country
having a wide international eftect, because it will have the merely incidental effect of
affecting or benefitting a few fishermen on the Fraser River, resulting in antagonizing a
friendly people and inviting retaliation by restrictions in our commerce with the east.
^^ hite fisliermen complain there are too many fishermen on the river. Of coui'se that
is a matter which can be dealt with in the Fishery Regulations, supposing you cimie to
the conclusion that it is true, that the interests of the province require that there shoukl
be fewer fishermen on the River — but that question is a debateable question — the can-
nerymen say that is not so — they prefer to have a good many on the ri\er, because they
can get fish at a cheaper rate. What the fishermen say is that there are too many fish-
ermen on the ri^er. That is a matter to be dealt with in another way. It is a very
grave thing to think that the price of fish to the canners has kept up to a figure which
renders it almost impossible for the canners to make money and that some of them have
failed. It is said tlie reason of that is there are too many canneries and that they com-
pete with each other for the fish. I am not prepared to say that that is not to the ad-
vantage of the country as a whole, their employing a great many fishermen and a great
many people inside, and paying a good price for fish — much better than if there were
fewer canneries. Then, in connection with tliat, it has been made a complaint against
the Japanese that they build and sell boats. It is quite true that they build and eipiip

406 HEronr of eoyal commissiox

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

boats. It lias been enniplaiiied that thev go into the woods and whip-.saw logs ami build
and equip boats niueh (.heaper than w hite boat builders. Xow, that is an extraordinary
complaint. These boats are sold to fishermen — they used to pay §150 for a boat which
they can get now for ^%Q : it is quite true that some boat builders may be injured, but
look at the adyantage to the fishermen who get a cheap boat. I point out that one boat
builder from Vancouyer, who has introduced up-to.date machinery, who builds boats by
modern methods — stated that he was not afraid of Japanese competition, that he could
build boats as good and as cheap as the Japanese : so the only man who gets hurt i.s the
white man who proposes to go on without any assistance at all from machinery and to
build a boat. In the good old days, when they had not machinery or apparatus for
doing that, in the good old days before the Japanese built boats, a man could go and
buy lumber and build a boat costing 6150. The answer to that is, that it is not a
fair price, and everybody is benefitted by the price to.day : a man can go and get a boat
from the Japanese or from the modern manufacturer at a reasonable price. To say that
the country is hurt by it, or that anybody is hurt by it, is simply absurd.

Now, then there are the coal mines. We went up t<i Nanaimo and from there we
went to Union. In Xanaimo we found that no orientals of any kind were employed
below ground there. In Union, on the contrary, we found some pits with both Chinese
and Japanese. Now, it was obsei vable that if any pit were to start now on the basis of
all white labour as at Nanaimo, nobody would make money on it. For some years the
New Vancouver Coal Company operating in that way paid practically no dividends ;.
but last year it was screwed up to pay a dividend of tln-ee per ceiit ; an interest that i.s
nothing at all here, so it may be taken for granted, that that industry, if conscientiously
run, is being run on a plane that will n<it pay, and certainly will not conduce to capital
coming in to de\elop other coal fields.

Ch.\irm.\n Clute. — Where did you get that from .' There is no evidence of that.

Mr. Cas.sidv. — With regard to the orientals lieing a source of danger in coal
mining, as that has reference rather to the Chinese I will pass that oyer. I do not
know it was said that Japanese ^^■ere a danger to the men underground : I know tliat
was said in regard to the Chinese. Of course it may be argued there is danger under-
ground but if it should be attempted to apply that to the Japanese it does appear to
me to be rather disingenuous. We kno^v, we have been told, that the white • men
employ them underground themselve,s on contract work, and white men who can
employ them never complain. It was shown in fact that in one mine, where
they ran the whole mine e.xclusively with Chinese for some years, at Extension, they
had no accidents. The oriental people are not more dangerous than white men : their
instincts are such that they will cari'v on work with regularity and attention to safety
much better than white men. The white man may have a wider range of thought, but
it is possible he does not do his work with the same regularity and mechanical accuracy
as of a machine as it is done by oriental jieople. That was their distinguisliing
characteristic, that if you wanted the work to be done with regularity and attention
you could get the oriental to do it. 3Ir. Dunsmuir did his best to get white labour.
It is within your knt)wledge that this question oi whether he was to be allowed to
employ oriental labour in his coal mines was determined by the liocal Legislature in its
wLsdom saying orientals should not be employed underground. This was the subject
of an appeal which wa.s determined in Mr. Dunsmuir's favour by the British Privy
Council. Having the pi-inciple determined in his fa\our, 'Slv. Dunsmuir turnerl around
and said, I have shown you I am master of the situation, but notwithstanding that, T
will voluntarily try the experiment, I will spenrl a great deal of money in doing it —
for everybody knows that the I'eal truth is when I turn the orientals out, instead of-
there being hundreds of white people aVjout reailv to work, there is nothing of the sort ;
I have to go abroad. He (Hd go abi'oad, and importerl a number of white miners, with
the same lesult as has followed everything of the kind in British Columbia. The
conditions were such that the men, having been brought out he: e in place of fulfilling
their moral obligations to their employers antl allowances made to them, went oft', find-
ing other work to do and left him in the lurch. There are so many good things in
British Columbia that white labour is scarce here, extremely hard to get, an<l harder

O.V CHIXESE AXD J A PAXESK I.MMIORA TIOX 407

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

still to be depeiideil upon. At all cxfiits, that was the result i>f it. Now, the next
([uestion is the (|uestion of the land. We have in this province a.s rich land as is to be
found anywhere in the world, that is timbered land. AVe have a nioderate. ecpiable
climate. The soil and all conditions are favourable to the growth of all the ordinary
foods. Notwithstanding that, we import more than we profluce, and the reason of that
is, that the cost of clearing the land is so great that it is eheapei' to buy your \egetables;
evervtliing you can get out of the ground in this country, that can grow in this countrv,
it is cheaper to buy it in the United States and pay duty on it. Xow, that state of
affairs is very unfortunate. Unle.ss some economical mechanical method of clearing the
land is invented this condition threatens to continue. Everything has to be viewed
from an economic standpoint. It is necessary to the success of the settlers, and of the
capitalists who ha\e invested money here, that the lanfl should be clearetl by cheap
labt>ur : and we know the Japanese offer their labour in that field not excessively cheap,
but for §1 to 61.50 a da}-. The settlers cannot afford e\en to pay that. They go upon
the land, which is heavily timbei'ed ; they pick out a little bit and endeavour to dear it,
and go on year after year until they are nearly heart-broken. That is the reason why
agriculture does not show as much progre.ss as other matters here. It is necessary we
should have the Japanese to clear the land. Mr. Robins, of Nanaimo, although hokling
strong views against the orientals, said he could not see how the land could
be cleared without them. He is in a peculiar position : he has persuaded himself
into the pleasant fiction or hallucination that he is master of the situation, and
that the repiesentations of the unions hiive no inriuence on him or are of little or no
avail : that he keeps on the e\"en tenor of his wav without reference to them. Mr.
Robins is one of the most diplomatic of men, anfl he is living on terms of the greatest
friendship with the Labour Unions ; they manage to get along niceh' together. Tiie
labour union, substantially speaking, dictates to Mr. Robins what he lias to do ; but
he is very politic, and seeks as it were by passive means, by putting forward his own side
of the case, to get along with the union ; but one thing he knows is that, considering
the views and power of the union to which all his men belong, if he were to propose to
employ cheap labour everything would be undone at once. Mr. Dunsmuir, on the other
hand, is not troubled in that way ; he goes on with his own white miners and deals with
them directly as indi-\ifluals ; there is no union ; the coal is got out by contract, by the
white miners, \\'ho get the contracts ; every one exercises his own opinion in the
business ; the white miner gets a c jntract to take out coal, he in practice usually employs
an oriental to help him, and the two get along amicably and peaceably. AVhether
that is a good thing or bad, that is for the men to say.

C'n.\lRMAS Clute — How can you say the union dictates to !Mr. R<jbins '.

Mr. Cassidy — They have a strong union there at Xanaimo : and the attitude of
'Sir. Robins shows he is on such terms with the union that a certain consideration bas
to be given to their views ; they are to have opportiuiity for discussion ; and there will
be no lockout until so many days elapse. I think it is practically manifest such a con-
flition of affairs does exist.

Chairman Clute — The agreement is they will not strike without consultation with
each other.

Mr. Cassidy — We all know perfectly well who it was contrived that arrangement;
it was not Mr. Robins" Comjiany at all ; but they have got into that piisition there.

Now, my learned friend spoke of the econijmical and industrial ((uestions, and the
national and political considerations. I have gone into the economic and commercial
aspect of the investigation I think enough. Now, with regard to the national and
political, I sufipose he means the social. Political only comes in in considering whether
the Japanese should be allowed to become citizens of our country. That is with regard
to the Dominion Elections ; they are controlled by the Dominion : but not .so with regard
to the province. It is said they are a non-assimilable people. Now, it seems to me an
entii'ely new doctrine that any country should prohibit from entering on its shores, and
should prohibit from enjoying in the fullest degree the Ijenefits of citizenship all peo-
))les with whom one would not like to intermarry. Now, if that were adopted generally by
nations it would result in a Chinese wall all round ; it would lie a retrografle movement.

408 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSI OX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

and would delay civilization. The Japanese are an oriental people, because thev live in
the orient. It may pt)ssibly be there is some other line of division, in sentiment, be-
tween the peoples : but I apprehend t<j the Japanese women for instance, the white man
can be no more attractive than the Japanese can be to the Canadian, ilanv people
think the Japanese women are among the most charming of their sex. Some tra\ellers
in the east tell us that absolutely delightful is the courtesy and politeness of the Japan-
ese women. If they came here and introduced many of their charming ideas among us.
it cannot ]x .said the Englisluman would be against them. It would be disagreeable to
find it necessary to exclude a people, to legislate in any way, with regard to a peojile
who throw their doors open to us and welcome us as they do : it is contrary to the spirit
with which one nation should regard another that a suggestion of the kind shouM l)e
used as a pretext for turning away the citizens of a foreign country from our shores.
That is not the true reason ; but that they are injured in the wage ijuestion, and they
desire to use everv argument they can against the stranger. When vou use the word
'assimilation ' what do you mean '. I say it just means reasonable assimilation, adoption
of our laws, and our ideas, turning to our laws and institutions, friendly sympathy with
us, ready to advance with us along the line of ci'V'ilization and development. Are not
the Japanese doing all that ? They come here t<j Canada, they ac(iuire our
language, they aim to become citizens of our country. It has Ijeen sug-
gested they become citizens only in order to get fishing licenses. I say that
is not the case. It has been said that but few of them have a wish to live here :
but it seems to me there is no objection to them on that ground. It has also
been suggested, principally against the Chinese — I propo.se to say it does ni.>t apply to the
Japanese — that they send their earnings out of the country. It is perfectly true there
is a considerable margin between the wages he gets and what he lives on. The Chinaman
is more frugal than the representative of any other nation. I do not consider it as a
disadvantage to the country that he is frugal and econt)mical ; the i-esult of the lalx)ur
remains in the country. Has he got to spend all he earns in drinking whiskey, or
indulging in any form of luxury I 1 do not put the Japanese on the same plane. He is
not a frugal man : when he gets good pay he is like white men, he lives like white men.
Rice is more expensive than potatoes. He eats meat and vegetables. I am sorry to say
that of the offences chai-ged against them drunkenness is the common ime. Although
that may not be a compliment to him, the result is that he spends his money in the
country. It has never been suggestefl — I have asked the question over and over again —
with regard to the fishermen, tliat there is any difference in cost between the equipment
of the Japanese and that of the white fishermen. The only exception is that the white
men eat potatoes and the Japanese eat rice, all other supplies they use equally. It is
a difference in point of taste, ami that is all there is in it.

Xow, it is said that the presence of the Japanese in this ])rovince is keeping out of
the province a desirable class of white settlei-s who would otherwise come in. Now.
what is the desirable class we desire to come in ? What we de-sire is cheap lalxmr. This
jirovince can afibrd to pay high wages to all classes of skilled labour, and it does pay it.
But. besides that, there is a large class upon the pre.sence of which is dependent the
development of our resources : and we do know the resources will never be developed
until we have more labour : it is necessary there should lie a considerable body of cheap
labour, or rather of the lower class of labour ; and that is the cla.ss it is desirable we
should have come intt) the country. If it were so that we could get white men to come
here and work for SI. 00 or 81.25 a day we would welcome them with open arms, but you
cannot : the moment you bring into this pro^nnce a man from Queliec, Montreal or Ttu'onto,
he immediately Ijecomes a 82 or .S-^ a day man. That is the lesson taught by the ex-
perience of those who have imported labour. In other words, he finds that, because of
his equipment and intelligence, and being able to take advantage <if the conditions out
here, he can get more than at home. The fact of the matter is, if we could get inti) tlie
province a large body of cheap labour, the effect would be to bring under cultivation a
large part of the land, new industries would be started, and in the end we would be able
to pay Ijetter wages than at present, and emjiloy a great many more white men.

ON CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION 409

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Now,it issaidtliiit itisini]iortaiit to consider whether we are nut layiiii; up for ourseh es
a race question. In the United JStates tiiere is the race iiuestiim with the negro in that
country. The reason of that is tlie negi'o settles down on the land ; the.y are a prolific
people, and theii' nuiiil)ers are gi'owiiig more rapidly than those of tlie white people
alongside f)f them. But the \ery thing that is charged against the oriental is the very
thing that may he alluded to as preventing any such thing in thi.s country. I grant you
if thev came here and settled tin the land with their families, and increased, it would be
a serious matter for the white man : but they come here and give us the advantage of
their laljour at a reasonable rate : the results of theii' laboui-s are left with us ; but that
thev go l)aek to their countrv again seems to me to be a gi'eat advantage instead of a
disadvantage.

Xow, it is quite true that, from the standpoint of the statesman and the nation
buildei', it is verv important we should ha\'e a large class of kinflred people who will
build up the country. I do not see that progress in that direction is retarrlefl in any
degree by the presence of the orientals. My view is that the population of the province
is so small that we have a need for cheap lal)our, thus enaliling industries to be developed :
the effect of that will be to ali'ord a larger field tov white men and their families, of such
a class as will be most desirable. That we wish. Down in Quebec, where you pay
81 and !?1.2-5 a day for work on the railway, where you find large gangs of white
laliourers earning a very small wage, do you find among them this better class who will
best build up this province ? I think not. In other words, where vou find cheap white
labour fluid in large masses, as in railway gangs, we generally find the men to be low
class Europeans and not likely to .settle down and build up the country. In other words,
the settlement of this countiy must alwavs be bv prosperous people who get their .$3 and
Si a day, and can keep wi\es and families. I mean to sav the existence of cheap labour
here, by opening up the resources of the country, very largely opens up situations for
Jieople of tiie sort we want to get here.

The charge which ajipeared most attractive to the opponents of the Japanese, next
to that <:)f their comiietition, hjwering the rate of wages, was that it is inach'isable to
permit any considerable [lart of our working population to consist of an alien race, who
cannot a.ssimilate with oui- people, jiartake of our political and national life, or constitute
a class of settlers which we would desire to become the parents of future generations f)f
our people. If there was anything in the nature of a general substitution of Japanese
for our own people I think there would be a great deal in this argument, but it is really
an academic question. It is entirely contrary to international usage for civilised nations
to exelurle foi-eignei's, who come to their shores in order to contribute their lalMur, or
skill, or enter|)rise to the country of their adoption, — I may perhaps except the United
States and some of the British colonies with reference to Chinese immigration. While
there can be little doubt that a countrv which receives foreigners is benefitted thereby,
it is questionable whether it would, in all instances, l)e an advantage to that country for
the strangers to assimilate, either by intermarriage or by taking a share in the control
of its affairs, by voting or otherwi.se. My own opinion is that an assimilation, in the
sense intended by the objectors, would be a disadvantage, and that the fact that the
.strangers for tlie most part elect to go home after a certain period, is an advantage to
botli nations.

Now. who are tlie men responsilile for the oriental agitation I An anti-oriental
agitation has been continuously kept up in this pro\'ince for the last 15 or 20 years,
originally directed against the Chinese : but the Japanese, who have come to our shores
in consiflerable numbers during recent years have been included as objects of attack,
and it may be said, so far as the agitators are concerned, without any discrimination
between the two peoples. It has become well understood by politicians and representa-
ti\e men generally, in this province, that an attitude of hostility to oriental inmiigration
of all kinds was essential to popularity. During all this period there was a large body
of most influential business men in the pro\ince who gave practical i-ecognition to the
ad\antages conferred upon industrial and commercial interests by the presence in the
country of an element which sujiplieil forms of labour neees.sarv to the development of
some of our most imiioi'tant resources. This labour was not only cheaiier, Init in its

410 REPORT OF KOYAL COMMISSlO^

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

class, better and more reliable than that offered by our own people. A,s will Ije leadilv
understood the anti-oriental point of ^iew obtained copious and often violent expression
cm all hands ; in the newspapers, on the hustings, and through the action of the legis-
lature. It is more than doubtful whether these expressions did not outrun sincerity, as
there is no cheaper method in this pro\ince of acquiring political capital than bv
abusing a non-voting class who are obnoxious to the labouring classes of our own ]jeople,
who have the ct)ntrol of political power. The business men of the Province who directly
or indirectly gain advantage from, or use, oriental laboui', and also the large class of men
u ho recognize its value to us as a community, have always kept silent, and the facts
and arguments which would support their point of view have not been presented to the
)iublic, and these facts and arguments ha\e been elicited by this Commission. The
oppoi-tunity of discriminating the position of the Japanese fi'om that of the Chinese in
this discussion has been an unmixed advantage to the former. I do not mean that the
distinction has not always been present and appreciated by the class to which such dis-
tinctions appeal. The labour unions broatlly speaking embrace the whole bodv of
artizans and skilled workmen, and they put forwai'd that their position is injured and
going to be destroyed by this cheap labour. That seems to me to be one t>f the most
extraordinary views of the whole affair. The e\ idenee is before you with regarfl to the
skilled organizatitms. I have much s\niipathv with the organizations and their purpose.
The artizan organization of Victoria includes all the trades. No oriental is permitted
to be a member. In dealing with employers of labour they make it a ' sine (jua non "
that no oriental should be employed. The result is they have the field entirely to
themselves ; and we also find that they are better paid than any other artizans in the
1 >ominion of Canada. The reason of that is not far to seek. A man who undeitakes
labour at the price of the oriental is ostracised, even although the employer is unable to
j)ay more ; they fix the wages at as high a point as tiie thing will stand ; but to suggest
that that is a disadvantageous situation to the artizans is absurd. The employment of
the oriental in British Columbia is a distinct ad\ antage to these men. We all know that
this is largely a sentimental matter. We all know they have their leading lights, who
foi-mulate their opini(_)ns : they haxe come to the conclusion that this province is not in
a desirable condition, and that that is owing to the presence-of the oriental. I say the
province is in good condition. There s no single place labt)ur is more independent than
here. The great difficulty in Rossland ai-ises from this,— -the men, led by these union
organizers, get extravagant ideas of their rights, and advance and insist on those : if
their demands are not at once acceded to, they are so independent that just at the
critical moment they turn round and strike, and throw the whole thing out of gear.
The point I make is that they could not do that if the conditions were not such that
they know they are quite safe. The labour conditions are such in the p>ro\ince that
there is lots of room for them, there is no scarcity of employment.

While the view of the white workman is perfectly sincere, it is entirely mistaken.
Tiie relatively cheap and efficient Ja])anese laboui' a\ailable improves the position of the
wliite workman. The employment of the Japanese does not decrease but increa.ses the
field for the employment of white workmen. The ability to obtain cheap labour for the
lower but necessary classes of work greatly assists the development of our resources and
renders possible enterprise's which could not otherwise be undertaken, and such industries
eni])loy not only Japanese and Chinese at a low rate of wages but also employ large
muiibers of whites at a higher rate of wages, and tl;e whites otherwise would not get that
emjilovment. The employment of Japanese tloes not decrease but increases the rate of
wages obtainable by the white workmen. Owing to the competition to which our
iurlustries are subjected, both at home and abroad, but chieffy to that of the United
States manufacturers and producers in the foreign markets to which we send out staple
products, the cost of production in our industries is not a matter subject to our own
dictation or control, and only a certain fixed proportion of that cost can be devoted to
wages. It is obvious that the smaller the sum ]iaid to the lower or oriental classes of
employees the greater is the sum which any given intlustrv can aff'ord to pay to its higher,
or white employees, and the nature of the pressure on the part of the employee under
modern conditions is such that, br<«idly speaking, the sum paid in wages is either the

02f CHiyESE AXD JAPANESE IJIMIORATIOX 411

SECSIONAL PAPER No. 54

full amount ur veiy close to the limit wliieh the particular indnstrv can att'nrd. So that
if it «ere not for the presence of the t>rientals in this ]>ro\ ince our own jieople would
occupy all the positions in a smaller and less developed number of industrial enterprises,
and compete with each othei' for the better places in them, while, as it is-now, thev lose
a number of the lower class of places, and retain and greatly increase the number of the
Ijetter class of positions open to them, and the country as a wliole flerives great advant-
age from the increased area of development. It is clearly indicated, as a matter of fact,
that the British Columbia white workman is not only the best paid workman in Canada,
but he is better paid than his brother immediately to the south of us in the United
States.

The principal objectors to oriental inunigration are the organized trades and artizan
unions in this province, and while they are ipute sincere in their very strong resentment
against the oriental, I am satisfied that, e\en if it is not correct, which I think it is.
that the presence of the oriental is advantageous to the white common labourer, there is
no doubt that the presence here of the oriental is a distinct advantage to the men who
woi'k at skilled trades, and it must be rememljered that the membei's of labour organiza-
tions belong exclusively to skilled trades of one kind or another, for it has always been
found, in practice, impossible to organize connuon labour, and the voice of the common
labourer is not heard nor are his \iew-s given efi'ect to, to the .same extent as is the case
with i-egard to the workman in skilled trades.

The trades unions have two principal objects : To keep up the rate of wages : to
keep, each after its kind, its own field of labour from encroachment bv outsiders. With
regard to the rate of wages, as I have already pointed out, the e\idence indicated that
the skilled workman received more because of the cheapness of the oriental connm.m
labourer. With regard to the exclusive occupation of the field open to skilled wijrkmen,
one of the principal ditficulties with which memljers of that class have to contenrl in
new countries, is the pressure from Ijelow" of men of their own race who ha\"e come to
the country without a trade, but having a certain amount of skill in .some particular
direction, ofl'er themselves as artizans at a lower than the current rate of wages, and, as
public i:>pinion and the numerical weight oi the white labouring men thus desirinsr to
encroach upon the richer field prevents any attempt on the part of the unions to sup-
press those intruders of their own race, it is obvious that the substitution of a large
lx)dy of white common labourers for the orientals now employed would be less advant-
ageous to the members of the trades unions than the conditions which now exist, for the
unions have been up to the present «tuit« strong enough to protect their own field from
incursions by the orientals, and thev are thus enabled, and it is their rule, to insist
both upon a mininmm rate of wages and that orientals shall not receive employment
along with themselves at the work of their diS'erent trades : so that the trades unions
are really masters of the situation to a much greater extent in British Columbia than in
any othei' part of Canada.

The point was made with some success against the Chinese tliat their personal
habits, more especially in regard to over-crowding anrl unsanitary practices, constituted
a menace to the health of the connuunitv, but the eviflence di<l not sustain this charge
as against the Japanese. There were a few instances of overcrowding in hoarding
houses following the arrival at the same time of large numbers of Japanese from trans-
pacific steamships on certain occasions, but the ditficulty was in each ca^ie of a nicist
temporary nature and there is not, in any city in British Columbia, any crowding of
Japanese into an exclusive quarter of their own as is the case with the Chinese. The
well known fact that the Japanese ai'e a particularly cleanly people in their persfuial
habits, and perhaps more fond of bathing and washing than are our own people was
brought out.

It is asserted it is a very wrongful thing for a man to come from abroad and enter
into the tailoring business and to turn out clothes .so good in style and fit that they
enter into competition with older establishments in the country. There are very few-
Japanese tailoring establishments in the country — two or thi'ee in Victoria, and the
same number in ^'ancouver : but the principle of the thing is — it is wholly witlnmt
relation or precedent — that the country should say that people who are artists, who come

412 REl-ORT OF liOYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

to Diir shores and enter into competition with our native horn aitists, biiviny tlieir cloth
from our wholesale houses, should be jMohibited. It is not a wa<;e (|uestion. They are
enterintj into competition in somethiny they can manufacture. We have all heard there
is not such a j;reat difference in the cost. Perhaps thev are sati.stied with a little les.s
jirntit on their jirofluct. The real reason why they can do that is, they are not controlled
by the labour unions. All clothes are enorniouslv expensive in Victoria : vou have to
pay from >>'i5 to S3S for an ordinary suit of clothes ; and a great many people, it is
said, who ouijht to know better go to Japanese tailors. The ne.xt tiling that is subject
oi complaint is that tlie Japanese go into ladies' tailoring. Now, that is purely artistic.
The humble and middle class of people do not indulge in ladies' tailoring ; it is your
s"ell who wants to cut a little figure who goes in for that. Do you know why some
lady is doing that ? Is she doing it in order to .save a dollar, or anything of the kind I
Not at all. 8he goes to the Japanese because he is an arti.st. There is a great deal of
the spirit of bigotry about. It is put forward by a great lot of people that the Japanese
are coming in here and running away with the trade. I do not think there is a word of
truth in it. We all know that in England, when the Huguenots were turned out of
France, and they sought refuge in Britain, it was felt to be a gi-eat advantage. I do
nt>t think myself there is anything serious in the complaint about the tailoring.

Thanking you veiy much for the careful attention you have given to the e\"idence
thrtiughout, ami to the A-iews presented on behalf of the Japanese, I can only say in
conclusion it seems to me utterly impossible, that it would be imi)ossible for any com-
mission to say that the presence of the Japanese is detrimental to the country, or that
they are a menace to u.s in anj- way. The Japanese are a people who li\e like our-
selves ; they do not hurt the country.

And now, one thing before closing : and that is, that it is clear the Japanese
gt>vernment is perfectly alive to every consideration that may be urged in this matter :
and, being one of the great nations now, their country being represented at the courts
of the leading nations of the world, thev are ready to entertain any views that may be
suggested with regard to the traffic between their country and ours, eithei' with regard
to immigration or anything else. It is impossible to suppose that on any such prete.Kts
as are put forwaixl, the parliament of Canada would pass an act against the Japanese. —
in other words, to affirm that that would be the proper way of dealing with any diffi-
culties there may be. It is impossible to suppose that that is the proper way of dealing
with it. I leave the matter in your hands, (juite sensible that vou will take everything
into consideration in reporting your views to the g(*"er-nment.

REPORT OF THE UNITED 8TATEt^ COMMISSIONER APPOINTED TO
INQUIRE INTO JAPANESE IMMIGRATION.

( E.i'hihits arf ptiJilishi'd only in U. S. Rhjhii-I.)

Sax FRAsrisro. Cal.. April l'4, 1S99.

The Commissioner General of Immigration,
*^Vashington, D. C.

I have the honour to report that in pursuance with instructions liy letter No.
17*8S, hereto attached, directing me to proceed to Japan via California for the purpose
of investigating the subject of Japanese immigration into the United States, that I
sailed on the steamer Coptir on November 29, 1898, and landed in Yokohama on
Decemljer 18. I was employed in Japan in pursuance of the fluties assigned
me for ninety-seven days. During that time I visited the provinces of Sagami, Mushi,
Owari, Yamashiro, Setsu, Kii, Bizen, Aki, and Suwo. Among the cities visited and
where I pursued my in\'estigations were Yokohama, Tokyo, Nagvoa. Kyoto, Osaki,
Wakayama, Kobe, Okayama, Hiroshima, and Yamaguchi. I did not visit Naga,saki for
the reason that very few emigrants embaik at that i>ort. After completing my inquiries,

0 y CHINESE A XI) J A PA NESE IMMIGRA TION 413

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

1 sailed tVoiii Yokohama mi .Maicli !'•"), IS'.ti), mi tlic stciiincr li'm (b- .Imti'iro. and
landed at tliis jiort on A]ii'il 1 -'i.

'riic ])rovinL-cs visited, with the adcHtion of the [ir'ovinee <it' Kvushu, coxrrs the
section of Japan in whieh the i^ieatest activity in ref^ard to eniiyiation |iri>\ails. Iluw-
evei\ eniif;rants come from every province in the Empire.

In connection with this report, I submit .'i4 exiiihits as a part tliereof, which, witli
the facts falhnj; under my jjersonal observation and imjiarted to me 1)V I'eliable jiersons,
form the basis of fact and ai-gument herein and conclusions deducted therefrom.

The government of .Japan, until comparatively recent times, was feudal and pater-
nal in its character, and it naturally followed that after the Japane.se lenaissance, which
period may be fixed as beginning with the reign of the present Emperor, the new insti-
tutions of the country took on many features of the old, and among the.se relics of
mediwYal times is the paternal principle that the subject cannot sever his allegiance
from his sovereign. It naturally followed after the opening of Japan to foreign com-
merce, which begat an idea among its jieople for foreign travel, that the government
provided regulations for the care and control of emigi-afcion abroafl, which are charac-
terized by many features of tiie feudal idea of allegiance or paternal duty on tlie part of
the government in its relation to the subject, and whieh are now being used hv design-
ing men for the promotion of money-making enterjirises. This'is flue to the ignorance
of the mass oi coolie farmers and the complicated system of gi'anting passports.

Under the Japanese law every subject is registered in his native ])iefecture, which
he may not leave without permission of the authorities and from which he, or she, must
obtain their passports, when they desire to emigrate. (Hec the exhibit citing the regu-
lations of sex'eral provinces in detail.)

Inasmuch as the government claims the i)erpetual allegiance of its subject, it grants
a passport, limited to three years, and I was informed that a large part of the emigrants
who thus go abroad return to their nati^'e land sooner or later, and consequently few-
Japanese, and indeed I may say none, come to the United States with a view to
remaining or making homes, the theory of their emigration .system being for the promo-
tion of emigration as an educational process and money-making in vestment for a temporary
jieriod, the profits of which acci-ue jointly to the promoter and to the emigrant, the
Japanese empire being the recijiient of what may be described as tlie unearned incre-
ment through its people that thus g(j abroafl, through their contact with more enlinht-
enefl people, and by reason of the accumulated capital, which they return to their
native land. It is through the tenacit)us allegiance which the sulijects f)f Japan yiekl
to their sovereign that the promotion of emigi-ation becomes a reasonably safe business.

It is a feature of the ctmstruction of the Japane.se law regulating emigratitm (.Vw
Regulations, Exhibit No. 1) that in prfjviding the same the go\'ernment has actefl upon
the theory that the character of the Japanese abroafl will be taken as an index of the
character of the natitin at luinie. Hence these regulations provide foi- the careful inf|uiry
intf) the character of those gfiing abroad and also reiiuires that pro\ision shall be made
foi' the return of the emigrant, in the event that he becomes sick, or a public charge in
a foreign country, before passports ai-e granted. These features f)f the Japanese law,
regulating emigration and the granting of pa.ssports, are very well in themselvt^s proV'iflefl
they wei'e honestly enforced, aiul ]>i-oviflefl the Japanese people stoofi tjn an efjual tVioting
with tlie [leople of the Unitefl States in a moral, ecfmomical antl educatif)nal sense, especially
as to the value fif their laljour, making the act of emigratifm, in the nature of things, jiui-ely
voluntary, they wfiukl be highly conmiendable. But thei-e is an abuntlance of e\iflence
going to show that the average Japanese village official aiifl policeman, who practically
pass tm the (|ualiHcations of emigrants, is but little superior, if any, in ])oint of moi'als t<)
the average coolie farmer. Con.set|uently, the performance of their duties is at nKwt per-
functory, while the possibility of gain through the emigratit)n companies, of whieh Ishall
hereafter treat, renders their in\estigations and reports of little value.

Upon this jioint, I was informerl by various persons, it is flesirable for the emigrant
to go under the auspices of the emigration companies, because these companies smooth
the way with the officials and, as some say, are influential. The emigration companies
seem to be attachefl to the system, to which I have above alludefl, by the laws makin"

414

BEPORJ OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

pro\ isiiin for their urnaiiizatimi. They ;ire designated in Japanese ' Iinin Toriatsukinin '
and are authorized to make pro\ ision for the assisting of the emigrants abroad, pro\'ide
seeuritv for the emigrants" care al)roafl required by tlie law and return in case of sick-
ness or indigence, and in the performances of these services they engage in furnishing
contract labour to such countries as permit it and otherwise contract with the emigrant
for the services to be performed by them of a personal diaracter. For such services
thev receive from the emigrant certain fees, ranging from 10 to 20 yen per capita.

These companies were first organized as ordinary partnerships, but later were
bi-ouyht under the control of the go\'ernment, and are now operating under the law
described, enacted in the twenty-ninth year of Jleiji. 1896. (Sei- Exhibit No. 1). In
general, these companies, of which there are \i in all (one new one having tieen organized
while I was in Japan, to wit, the Okayama Emigration Company), are recjuired by the
goA-ernment to depiisit certain moneys as a guaranty that the business tranacted shall Ih^
strictly in accordance with the pro\isions of the Imperial Ordinance, the agents located
abroad being subject to the approxal of the government. They have an aggregate
capital .stock of o.5!:*,999 yen, distributed as follows :

Company.

Kol>eTokoCo jKobe

Xi|JiK)i\ Kissa Emigration Co Tokyo

Kaiguai Toko Co Hiroshima .

Hhin Morioka Co Tokyo

Nipix)n Emigration Co .Kobe

Kyushu Emigration Co. Kumamota. .

Tokvo Emigration Ca Yokohama.

Tokyo

Kosei Emigration Co Waksiyama..

Kumamota Emigration Co Kumamota.

Imperi.il Colonial jOkay.^nia. . .

Ok.iyania I new company ; capital !>tock unknown)

Capital Stock.

Yen.

30,300

100,000

60,000

8,000

50,000

20,000

100.000

50,000

40,000

30,000

Six of these companies have agents in the United States and Canada as follows : —

Conii)any.

Residence.

Kobe Toko Co Takijiro San Jose, Cal.

Xippon Emigiation Co Tanichi Takaya San Francisco, Cal.

Kaigwai Toko Co Kisuke Hamaino I ..

Shin Morioka Taniche Takaya ..

Kosei Emigration Co |Tekiche Xishihat.i

Tobe Toko Co Kinsuke Takahashi Vancouver. British Columbia (Columbia

Avenue.)

Kaigwai Toko Co •

Kosei Emigration Co , ■■ _ . ■ ■ ■ ■

Kyusku Emigration Co jKwanichi Kayashi ....

Kiinxm Emigration Co. . . .- i Ma.ssataro Mito

Horishima Emigration Co Minami Jinnosuke.

Kosei Emigration Co Y. Nishibata

Vancouver, B.C.

At or in the neighb<iurhood of Victoria,

B.C.
San Francisco, Cal., 529j Geary street.

M If 260A Brannan street.

These companies have offices at all important emigration centers, but at the present
time Hiroshima seems to be the chief center of operations. I have found nine branch

0\ CHIXESE A\D JAPAXESE IMMIGUA TlOX 415

CESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

offices in that city. (.SVc Exhiint No. 1.) The charactei of the (>ijj;juii/atioii niaiiitaiiied
by tliese emigration companies for business and political purposes niav he inferred from
the fact that in Tokyo they ha%e an association of emigration companies located at
Yamashiro cho (street or line) called Kyobashi, which is in the nature of an emigration
board of trade. The offices of these companies are well equipped for business lairposes
and have the appearance of being well supplied with employees and clerks. The
managers and stockholders are among the leading business men anfl jKiliticians of Japan,
and are a formidable power when co-operating together. Among the capitalists and
politicians thus interested is Mr. Suguwara, who is a member of the lower Hou.se of Par-
liament and editor of the Jimini. the leading \ernaculai- newspaper of Japan, published
at Tokyo. Mr. 8uguwara spent se\-eral years in Idaho, where he had extensive connec-
tion with railway contractors, and jiresumahly laid the foundation of his fortune. I met
others connected with these conij)anies, whose appearance showed them to be men of
position, and I was informed at Hiroshima that the gentlemen I met there were among
the leading capitalists of that city. (Sfi' Exhibit No. 20.)

I find that the emigration comi)anies all advertise more or less in the newspapei-s
for contract laboureis, designatijig them to go to Hawaii, Peru anfl Mexico, and that in
a general way they advertise through circulars, pamphlets, and bv means of tra\elling
.solicitors for emigrants going to the United States. (.SVp Exhibits Nt)S. 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.

In this connection, I desire to call your attention to the circulars and emigrants'
pamphlets of the Koesi Emigration Company and the Kobe Toko Emigi-ation Company.
(Exhibits Nos. 2 and -33.) I heard of advertisements of a similar nature bv other com-
panies, but I found it impossible to obtain copies of them. The docmiientary evidence
herein presented, as a whole, shows that the business is vigorously and aggressively pro-
secuted through personal solicitation of agents, whose earnings depend on their zeal and
success. This is particularly brought out by the fact, which clearly appears, that the
emigrati(jn companies are all pro^ ided with blanks for obtaining passports, which they
naturally would not keep on hand unless it was profitable to do so.

In fact, the evidence herewith presented, and all circumstances connected therewith,
and which fell under my observation, tend to show and, in my opinion, establish beyond
a reasonable doubt that the capitalists interested in these companies have taken advan-
tage of the law for the pi-otection of emigrants to build thereon a system which has no
parallel. The system presents an interesting study in the linking together of money-
making enterprises, wliich must olitain their profit through a common source. Agents
of the steamship companies and emigration companies do not occupy offices together.
They are, nevertheless, very ck>sely connected through the brokers anrl hotel keepei-s,
and it is hard to draw a line of separation of interests. Many of the hotel keepers are
emigration brokers, and nearly all lirokers are intimately connected with the emigration
companies ; while it is safe to assert that if the steamsliip companies were to establish
and maintain a fixed rate for steerage passage, it would cut the profits of the brokers,
hotel-keepers and emigration companies .50 per cent and it seems to me conclusive that
if it were not for the existence of the emigration companies and these agencies, for the
collection of emigrants to go abroad, the profits of the steamship companies would be
materially reduced. By their present methofis the steamship companies, whether inten-
tionally or otherwise, clearly offer inducements for the emigration companies to solicit
the emigi'ants ; both being hirge capitalized enterprises, that have a mutual intei'est,
which is inseparable, as long as they are allowed to exist side by ride, the one to oljtain
fees fr<jm emigrants and the other to receive steerage passage. (Sf/' Exhibits Nos. 7, S.
13, 28).

The emigration company is exploited as a beneficiary institution and a similar ar-
gument is made in their favour by high officials of the Japanese Government {Srv Ex-
hibit No. 9), but if any number worth mentioning has been returned to Japan by the
emigration companies, I have been unable to discover the fact. (-SV? Exhibit No. 1
and the statements of the officers of the emigration companies and Kenslio.) However,
if the term ' beneficiary ' is made to apply to the filling i if the pockets of the stockholders
of the emigration companies anrl others interested in the movements of emigrants, anfl
to the fact that the system affords a splendirl means of getting rid of a congested popu-

416 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

liitioH, then in that sense it is eminently Ijenetieiary, heeaiise it is a matter of general repute
that thev are tlie most profitable enterprises in Japan. Great stress was laid Ijv Jap-
anese officials, with whom I conver.sed, upon the fact that the Japanese Government re-
ijuire.s every emigrant to provide sureties to provide for his return to the country in ease
of need, before granting a pa.ssport. This fact is pointed out by a Mr. Shimamura.
(,sV« page 14, Exhibit No. 9.)

The system may be a benefit to Japan, but I deny that it is an advantage to . ither
countries. The aged and decrepit cannot emigrate, and the percentage of those who
do and become paupers amounts to nothing. This is shown by practical experience,
while on the other hand their laws are so strict that they defeat their own purposes. It
is a well known fact in Japan, and clearly appears in nearly all the exhibits hereto
attached, that it was the dithculty experienced by the coolie class in obtaining sureties
and obtaining passports that suggested and built up the emigration companies. {Sfe
Exhibits 7, 10.) There are really no fixed rates of Japanese steerage, .so that the steam-
.ship companies if not voluntary parties to the system described are»made in^•oluntary
contributors to the emigration companies and emigration brokers. (Copies of the .so-
called free contract, issued by the emigi-ation companies for emigrants going to the
United States and Canada, furnished me by the foreign office in Tokyo, are attached as
Exhibit No. 1.) It will be noticed in the statement of Kencho or piefecture officers
and emigration compianv officers that they all declare that these free contracts are not
now used in connection with emigi-ants going to the United States.

It strikes me as rather peculiar, however, if this is true tliat the Japanese minister
of foreign affairs in transmitting these blank contracts and emigration papers to his
excellency the United States minister at Tokio ditl not mention that fact. ^Moreover,
by referring to Exhibits Nos. 11 and 12 it apjiears that free contracts were provided at
one or more prefectures as late as January 2S, 1898. {Scf particularly the transcript
in the case of Sakamoto Kyuta and wife and Doiliata Yoichi, Exhibit No. 12.) It is
possibly true that some companies, finding that emigrants found with these contracts
on their persons or in their baggage at American ports had more or less trouble, dis-
continued the using written contracts and substituted a mere memoranda witli the
emigrant, and some means by which he might make himself known to the agent in this
country, the emigration company obtaining passports and otherwise looking after tlie
emigrant, it being explained to the latter that the agent and other friends in the United
States would see that provision was made for empkiynient. The evidence of the stmnd-
ness of this view is found throughout the evidence submitted, and I call your attention
particularly to the fact that all of the agents of the eniigrati<;>n companies whom I
interviewed, with possibly one exception, on being asked 'To what ct)untries does your
company send emigi-ants ? ' invariably included the-United States in their answer.

Later on, when thev had discovered the trend of my in([uiries, they tried to hedge
and qualify their former statement. I flirect your attention to the testimony on this
of Mr. Nacayama (Exhiliit No 40) ; to the advertisement of the Koesei Emigration
Company (Exhibit No. 3.3), and to the fact tliat all companies keep blanks suitable for
such purpose, and to Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, 15, 16, 17, 21. Exhibits Nos. 18 and 19 are
well worthy of consideration in this connection, the latter being the statement of a man
long in the business and who should be able to tell how it is done. Mr. U. in his
statement says that a verbal agreement is made with the labourers in Japan. If only
ten or so are wanted, the agent has a letter of credit or the men are supplied with funds
to land, which is afterwards returned to the agent. Should a much larger number of
labourers be required, then they send an appointed man connected with the agency to
accompatiy them, he being a i>assenger to all intents and purposes. After their arrival
(which I understand to mean in the United States) they, the labourers, sign a contract,
which is in accordance with the \ erbal agreement made pre\ious to their depai'tui'e fi-om
Japan. This plan is similar to that detailed l)y ]Mr. (Jmi at the United States legation,
who informed me that he ol)tained his information from an officer of an emigration
company.

Then again, a pertinent suggestion, if these companies are not engaged in sending
emigrants to the United States, why do they have agents here? Upon this point see

O.V CHINESE AXD JAPAXESE IMMIGRATION 417

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

also interview with tlie managers and stoLkhuldeis of the Hiiusliiiua Emigration Com-
pany. (Exhibit No. 20.)

Touching the question as to what extent the emigration companies supply emigrants
with money and means for coming to this country, I have no other evidence than that
referred to above : but taking the testimony all together, it seems to me that the
circumstances go to sliow tliat the emigration companies engage in any feature of the
business which may seem profitalile. I ha\-e elsewhere in this report called attention to
the blank forms of conti'acts issued for sending free emigrants to the United States and
Canada. Exhibits Nos. 22 and 20 afford a thorough understanding of the intricate
system which is in force by the various prefectures in granting passports. The mass of
coolie farmers of Japan are very ignorant, and in the very nature of things recpiire
assistance in obtaining their passports under such a sj'stem.

Touching the emigration to the United States through Canada, I am of the opinion,
through personal obser\ation, that 90 per cent of the emigrants to Canada find their
way to the United States within two weeks after landing at Victoria or Vancouver, and
90 per cent of those landing in British Columbia are assisted by emigration companies
that maintain agents in British Columbia and in California.

The records included in exhibit No. 27 were furnished me by the governors of the
provinces of ^^'akayama and Hiroshima respectively, and are complete transcripts of
papers on file, upon which passports were granted to nine Japanese — T. Yivabe, T.
Hamamoto, M. Nakate, H. Nakate, T. Sumidi, Y. Omori, B. Yoshida, T. Narukawa,
and R. Shugite, who emigrated to Victoria, and thence \ia coast line steamei's to San
Francisco {See their attida\its taken from the port of San Francisco, at my request, and
forwarded to me in .Japan). These men went under what is known as the free contract
with the Kosei, Kyushiu, and Kt)be emigration companies respectively. By referring to
exhibit No. 1, and the list of agents of the emigration companies in Victoria and San
Francisco, it will be seen that a line of communication is thus established, by which this
class of labour is introduced into the United States.

This view is further confirmed by a transcript of the testimony in the matter of
hearing of the case of ten Japanese steerage passengers from Victoria bj' the steamer
Walla Walla, about the 10th day of April, 1899. See also the report by Inspector
Geffeney (E.xliibit No. 31), locating certain companies agents in San Francisco and at
San Jose. I talked with many men of long experience in Japan, and found but one
universal opinitm, that not 10 per cent of the emigrants leaving that country could or
would go unless they had assistance, or were helped or assisted by some person or in-
fluence. Aside from the facts herein presented, the coolie class could find no proper
sui-eties, such as are required by the government, unless some arrangement was provided
by responsible parties for looking after this class of emigrants after they land in the
United States.

The magnitude of the capital invested, re<|uiring the utmost energy and most a<,'gres-
sive management to make it profitable, which, eonsiflered with the zeal, begotten of
competition, between the emigration companies and the influence of wealth and political
connection, points to but one conclusion ; consequently I am forced to the conclusion
that the Japanese system (jf granting passports for a limited period requiring surety for the
welfare of the emigrant aboard, ancl in some cases for the care of his faujily while absent,
and his return wdien sick ov disabled, joined with the avarice of organized capital and
influence of emigration companies, is the direct inducing cause of 90 per cent of the
emigration from .Japan to the United States.

E.xhibit No. 29, which is a scheme devised by the managers of the emigration com-
panies to evade what they expected to be the law, as applied to the Hawaiian Islands,
illustrates the skill and willingness of those interested in emigration in .Japan to boldly
defy the law when it conflicts with their interests and serves as a key to the system I
have herein described ; this justifies conclusions drawn therefrom. I find further, owing
to the conflitions herein described, that the objects and purposes of the laws of the
United States regulating immigration ai-e largely defeated, so far as relates to immigra-
tion from Japan. It may readily be perceived that such an organized .system, having
its feeders among ticket brokers and hotel keepers, joined by ties of interest, and fi'om
•54—27

418 SEPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

emploj'ment bureaus in Japan and on the Pacific coast, and by reason of its capital and
power able to coerce the steamship companies into dividing their profits, with a perfect
system of coadiing immigrants as to the requirements of the immigration laws of the
United States, that the immigration officers here are practically powerless to hold back
the influx of pauper and contract labour from Japan, which is increasing year by year.
In conclusion, I beg to acknowledge my obligation to his excellency Alfred E. Buck
and Messrs. ISIiller and Herod, of the United States legation ; to Mr. G. Hayashi,
assistant secretary of the Jajianese foreign office ; to Consul-General Go\\ey and Messrs.
McLean arid McCance, of the American consulate at Yokohama ; to Consul Lyon, of
the L^nited States consulate at Kobe, and to Commissioner H. H. North and Inspector
A. H. Geffenev, of San Francisco, for their zealous and unselfish co-operation, which has
contributed largely tn whatever success has attended this investigation.

W. M. RICE,

Commissioner of Immigration.

Treasury Department,

United States iMMicjRAtlox ServIcij,

Vancouver, B. C, May 2, 1899.

'The CoMmssiONER-GENERAL OF Immi(;ration,
Washington, D. C.

Supplemented to and in continuation of my report of the 2-4th ultimo, relating to
the immigration of Japanese to the United States, I have the honour to report as
follows on the morals of the coolie class, from which 99 per cent of the immigrants of
the United States are drawn ; the condition of labour in Japan ; the movement of
population ; and other features bearing upon the character of the Japanese people, their
qualities as immigrants, and the encouragement of immigration from Japan to the
United State.s and other countries by capitalists and oflicials.

It is thirty-two yeai-s since ^litsuhito, the one hundred and twenty-third Mikado
of Japan began his reign. The Japanese designate this period as ^leiji, oi' the beginning
■ of enlightened government, and no one will question the fact that Japan has made
immense strides along the material side of modern ci\ilization during these j-eais. It
■may be admitted, but it may also be doubted, that in the matter of govermnent great
.improvemient has been made ; but in attaining the essential elements of indi\idual
'character, ^which makes for all that is best in western civilization, the Japanese have
made but little progress. The first idea that occurs to a thoughtful observer in the
Flowery Kingdom, after becoming more or less familiar with conditions there, is that
the Japanese liave hji^notized the balance of the world, or else a certain class of writers
have tenibly buncoed the reading public on this point. Mr. William E. Griflis, a
writer of ability and a gentleman who has had great oppurtunities for obser\ation, says,
in a I'eeent article contributed to the Oiiftook :

'It is very certain that, whether intending it or not, the average newspaper corres-
pondent and hasty tourist wishing to please both the Japanese themselves (who love
'sugar and sui)erlatives ') and the occidental admirers of ' Japanism,' give what, when
analyzed, are caricatures of truth. They ignore both the men and the forces that have
made the new Japan. Some of these literary ' impressionists ' seem to be so Japanese-
mad in their rhapsodies as to suggest Titania before Bottom. In the name of all our
inheritance, let us not cast away perspective or take a Japanese poster as the gauge and
measure of reality.'

The Japanese were never wealthy as a people. There are no rich men in Japan,
who have acquired their wealth fi-om Japan, unless it was through the conversion of
landed estates or by speculating upon the labour of other men. The country produces
no inventors, no original ideas, except along the line of its peculiar art in curios, silk,
embroideries and potter\-, and practically has no literature.

ox CHIXEUE AXD JAI'AXESE IMMWRATIOX 419

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Only the Saniuii, or soldier class, or nobility have eiijoyerl the comforts or culture
of wealth until recent years, and until this time 50 per cent of the jxjpuhition live in
the most squalid poverty, and the remainder of the common people, to put it mildly, are
poor. It is not surprising that such is the case. It is historical that the population of
Japan had outgrown the capacity of the soil to furnish food thirty yeais ago, and thej-
have been enabled to live only by the practice of the strictest economy with food pro-
ducts. Infanticide was connnon ; no deformed was allowed to live, the girl babies were
not popular. Famines were frequent and loathsome and immoral diseases were everj--
•where prevalent, which have left their imprint upon the people t« the present day. Tlie
people were habitual gambler.s. In most of the municipalities, forming a city by it.self,
was a large colony of women for immoral purposes — a system recognized bv usage
and law and which prevails t<j this daj-. In fact the decencies of life were unknown
except among a very few. It is not possible that a generation and a half ccjuld regenerate
such a people. There is, it is true, a brighter side to new Japan, a regenerated section
•of the population who ha\e taken on European ideas, who are struggling for better
things, but the future is still veiled in uncertainty.

It is with Japan of to-day, however, that I have to deal, and with that class of people
who emigrate. First, there are a few merchants and business men ; second, a few
students and voung men, the sons of Jajianese of the better professional and commercial
class ; third, the great mass of immigrants, say 95 per cent of the whole, who are coolie
labourers and small farmers who class as coolies.

The firet pi-oposition I desire to advance, and the conclusions reached from obser-
vations and information otherwise obtained, is that Japan is now over-populated and her
soil worn out ; that her population is increasing by leaps and bounds. I need not enter
upon a description of Japan, its barren aspect, its barren, treeless range of mountains
which are features with which all are familiar. It is only the valleys and hillsides and
flat lands adjacent to the sea that are tillable. The soil upon these flats and hillsides
is light and utterly lacking in strength. In contains but little vegetable mould and
receives no nourishment whatever from nature except through copious rains and washing
from the wornout hillsides. Weeds and grass are unknown. Hie crops are dependent
entirely upon artificial fertilizers, which are applied to the growing plant generalh' in a
liquid form. Everything that can be made use of foi fertilizing being carefully sa\'ed
up by the people. The husbandman must give to the soil as much as he expects in
return.

The best sources of information claim that from 10 to 15 per cent of the land of
the empire, exclusive of Formosa, is tillable, and that probably not more than 2 per
cent of undesirable lands remain to he put under plough. The area of the entire empire
— and I will say here I do not in any case include Formosa — is 24,799 square ri,
of which Professor Rein, an autliority upon Japanese industry and agriculture, says
'but 12 per cent is tillable and that is under cultivation.' He, however, probably did
not take into consideration a jiart of the lands on the island of Yezzo, and of course did
not take into consideration Formosa. A native writer says that among the evils coming
with the new era of things is the fact that land is being changed from the ownership of
small jiroprietors to the hands of richer men.

The following statistics, compiled by the home department, gi\e the total popula-
tion at the end of 1S97 as follows : —

21,82.3,651 males and 21,405,:il3 females. Classified according to family status,
there are 4,423 peers, 2,089,134 shizohu, and 41,135,206 o dinary citizens. The above
figures show, when compared with those oi the previous year (1896), an increa.se of
620,599 in population.

Births and deaths during 1897 were: Births, 1,335,125 — males, 684,941, and
females, 650,184 ; deaths, 876,837 — males, 452,383, and females, 424,454. The number
of marriages was 365,207, and divorce cases 124,075.

The average percentage of annual increase, taken during ten years, is 1-04. The
population to the square mile is 293, the density being, of course, immeasurably greater
in the inhabited sections, where, outside of the cities, the people live in small villages.
The great mass of the people live by farming, which includes silk raising and fishing, at
which occupations they earn from lOO to 150 yens per annum, which suffices to support
54— 27i

420

REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

a faniilv oi about four, a man, a wife, ami two or three cliilclren. lu larger families the
mother and older children work. The agricultural implements used are of the most
primitive character, and the allotment of land to the family or individual is in most
cases less than an acre. There are no division fences, each little tract being divided
from its neighbour by a little ridge of dirt, from li t > 3 feet wide.

The value placed upon tillable land is suggested by the fact that the government is
now trying to re-form the boundaries so as to reduce the width of these divisitm lines
and thus re.store to cultivation, it is claime<l, about 1 ".5,000 acres of land throughout
the entire empire. There has been an effort to intrcKluce, which, of course, is well
known, various foreign manufactures. The success of these enterprises has not yet
proved conspicuous, but the effort, with the fact that the agricultural land everywhere,
except on the islands of Yezzo and Formosa, is all occupied, has tended to build up the
cities toward which the influx of population is continuous. Factory employees earn
from 15 to 20 sen per day. Investigations made by a representative of the Jiji (a
leading vernacular paper in Tokio) show that the wages of operatives rose on an average
of 30 per cent between 189.5 and 1897, the comparative table being as follows : —

Occupation.

August, 1897. August, 1895.

S»^n.

Carpenter.. ..

Plasterer

Painter •■■

Mason -•-

Sawyer

Pvoofer (tile)

,. (brick)

Floijr mat maker

.Tataguya (maker of doors, &c)

Paltering

Cabinetmaker

Cixiper

Wouden clog maker

Shoemakers —

First class..

Second class

Third class

Carriagemakers—

First class

.Second cla.s.s

Third class -

Tailor—

.Japanese stylo

Foreign style —

First class

Second class

Third class

Ribbon marker

Fukuromonoya (maker of purses, tobacco pouches, &c.-

First class

Second class

Dyer

Cotton whipper

Bl!.cksu>ith

Filemaker

Tobacco cutter

Ship carpenter —

First class

Second class ......

Third class

Gardener

Coolie

Bt-K)kbinder

Sculptor —

First class

Second class..

Tiiirti cla-ss.

0 (!0
0 SO
0 SO
0 f^O
0 70
0 70
0 :i5
0 80
0 60
0 76
0 70
0 .'50

0 30

1 20
n SO
0 50

0 (»
0 50
0 40

0 40

1 ."lO
1 00

0 80

1 30

1 00
0 70
0 :?5
0 SO

0 CO

1 00
0 44

0 SO
0 70
0 GO
0 50
0 40

0 70

5 00

1 .50
1 0"

0 40
0 60
0 GO
0 50
0 GO
0 50
0 40
0 Gi,
0 .50
0 50
0 50
0 25
0 25

0 90
0 60
0 40

0 50
0 43
0 33

0 30

1 20
0 80

0 GO

1 00

0 80
0 50
0 20
0 25
0 45
0 80
0 36

0 65
0 60
0 55
0 30
0 30

0 50

3 00

1 00
0 70

Increase.

0 20
0 20
0 20
0 30
0 10
0 20
0 15
0 20
0 10
0 25
0 20
0 05
I) 05

0 30
0 20
0 10

0 10
0 07
0 07

0 10

0 SO
0 20
0 20
0 30

0 20
0 20
0 15
005
0 15
0 20
0 08

0 15
0 10
0 05
0 20
0 10
0 20

2 00
0 50
0 30

Oy CHIXESE AXl> JAPANESE IMMIORATIOX 421

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Fanu laldiui't'i-s farn frinn tiftft-ii to tliirty sen per day, (Irpfiulinp; ii)i(iii Incality-
Another reputable autliority .say.s that, wliile wages have inereaseil 4 I pel' cent, living
has increased 64 per cent. Upon this point I beg to call your attention to chapters 'i
and 1 6 of the report on the coinineroe and industries of .Japan, made under the direction
of the National Association of ^Manufacturers of the United States by the Hon. Robert
P. Porter. The labour which -Japan s'ends abroail is pauper labour. My reasons for
thus classing it are that the over-population of Japan has reduced the value of labour
below a decent li\"ing point, measured by a civilized stanflard, and, further, that this
competition is increasing in such force that it seems unreasonable to assume the
probability of the value of laljour approximating the cost of future products and living.

The agricultural interests of Japan are practically incapable of expansion, whic"
forces all sui-plus laljour into the employfnent of \-arious manufactures and into fishing.
Jaj)an's market ftir manufactures is, and must for fifty years remain, \ery limited, if we
except silk, pottery, curios, itc, antl even the demand for the native products must find
a limit. I was informed by IMr. tliat Mr. , a leading member of parlia-
ment from the Pro\-ince of Kyushu, told him that his province (Kyushu) was annually
producing a thousand more labourers than the}- could find employment for at home. At
the time this eon\ersation occurred this .Japanese member of parliament was on his
waj' to one of the southern islands to see if arrangements could not be made to take

labourers there. This member of parliament, in his conversation with Mr. ,

spoke of the situation as one which gave them great concern.

The question naturally occurs, how do thev raise sutficient money to emigrate ? As
I intimated in my report of the 24t]i ultimo, the emigration companies in certain
instances furnish them money, sending a Banto along with the emigrants to look after
their interest. I found, by inquiring among the people, that it reipiires from five to ten
year* for a .Japanese farmer to save 200 ven. .Some undoubtedly do this, but the
majority secure money by selling their holdings and by borrowing from the emigration
comj.ianies — fi'iends and relatives, upon whom they are more or less dependent, going
their security. The laws are verj- strict in .Japan concerning the collection of debts.
There are no exemptions, and hence in view of the fact that every emigrant to the
United States is able to send money home, this is a safe business. Besides, the pickings
of the emigration companies enable them to get back a large part of the funds loaned
the emigrant before he sails. I cannot,- of course, prove this state of facts, but all the
circumstances concur in supporting this view.

Concerning the physical conditions surrounrling the factor}- operatives, the ./(/(,
which is the most influential and conservative pajier in .Jai)an, styles the spinning
factories as ' hellish pits.' -My observation leads me to credit this statement to the
fullest extent. Child and girl labour is largely employed at rates running from four to
ten sen per rlay. The best workers in .Japan are considered to be those engaged in the
building trades, blacksmithing, tailoring and printing. Apprentices in the most of
these trades are required to give their employers many years of service, receiving as an
acknowledgment of past favours only two to three ven per month as purse money.
During the period of apprenticeship there is no opjiortunity of acquiring even a
rudimentary education. It is not unreasonable to declare that the life of the .Japanese
labourer is largely, if not wholly, destitute of pleasure and comfort and full of hardships
and misery. The .Jinricksha men are a large and useful class, but their lot is far from
enviable. The majority of them are married men and have from thi-ee to five children,
but they are nevertheless reputed to be a very dissolute, immoral and wasteful body of
men ; their homes are very inferior, their houses being built in a row of 10 x .oO feet,
partitioned off, giving each abode a space of 1 0 x 1 2 ft.

The finishing of these houses js very meagre. Farm houses are somewhat larger,
but asiile from their environments are but little better. The facilities iov cooking are
very limited. Fient for the houses of labouring men ranges from 40 sen to H per
month, according to the location and condition of the house. Large numbers of the
Women and children of the working classes work at home, pasting match boxes, paper
boxe.s, kc, and earning perhaps from .5 to 10 sen per day. A man as a worker in
Japan is socially a doomed being, whether he be a mechanic of an advanced trade or a

422 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

waste-paper picker. The conspicuous characteristics of all classes of lalwurers and the
majoritv of farmers are iijnorance, and, in numerous cases, vulgaritv. Large quantities
of saki and Japanese beer are consumed by these classes, but their effects are not per-
ceptible to the casual observer. The reputation of the Japanese as a drunken man is
that he is good natured and jtilly, consequently" there is but little brawling ; but, if I
were called upon to point out a conspicuous natit>nal evil, I should sav it was cigarette
smoking, which prevails everywhere among men and women, and even the children are
allowed to smoke unrebuked. Those women who do not smoke cigaiettes smoke a small

The first thing a Japanese does on getting into a I'ailroad car is to light his cigarette,
and the fumes of tobacco fill the train from one end to the other. This habit prevails
among all classes oi people. Of course, the wealthier smoke cigars. Morall}', the
conditions of the lives of the coolie, farm and labouring classes are very low. and it is an
unfortunate fact that, naturally ((uick and imitative as well, the Japanese people are
slow to take on new and I'eforined ideas of social moralitv and integritv with their new
clothes and much-vaunted new enlightenment. Home life is, as a rule, devoid of the
pleasures and associations of western civilization. The father is the great ' I am,' a
selfish, jiettv tyrant, whose comfort requires that all shall bend to his will and pleasure ;
the mother, with rare exceptions, is a nonentity : all others in the familv are inferioi-s.
The conjugal relation is exceeflingly loose, concubinage being practiced by those who can
afford the lu.xury and is recognized by law. JIarriage is the simplest form of civil
contract.

Under the new code, which attempts to reform the old system, the married couple
must appear, within three days after entering upon their new relation, before the mayor
of the citv or the head man of the village, and sign a document of marriage and place
their seal thereon, which is then filed or registered. In this connection, I was infoi-med
bv the ofiieers of the various go\'ernors whom I visited, that Ijefore granting passports
to women as mai'ried, these records, or other eviflence of marriage, are carefuUv in<|uired
into. It is a fact, howe\er, believed by all the innnigration officers with whom I have
talked, that at least 75 per cent of the women who come to the United States are lewd,
or at least of such a low quality of virtue that they are easily overcome by the conrlitious
which they finrl in this country. Few immigrants Vjring their wives with them, and the
excess of Japanese men over women in this counti'V rendei's it difficult, if ntit impossible,
for the majority of Japanese women who obtain a landing here to avoid becoming
promiscuous in their relations with men. An officer of the occidental and oriental
steamer Doric told me in conversation that he had witnessed inmioral practices among
Japanese emigrants aboard the steamer in plain view of all the steerage pa.ssengers.
Even when the steamers are provided with separate compartments for women in the
steei-age they will not occupy them.

I)ivorces are very numerous. Until recently the husband merely returned his wife
to her familv when he became tired oi her oi' otherwise displeased. The new co<le,
however, abolishes that practice, anrl allows the wife to make a defence in court. I find
the avei'age number of marriages for six years to be .377,043 per year, and the average
divorces during the same pei'iod to have been 113,9.3.5. The legitimate live births for
1896 were 8-t,^79, about 7 per cent of the total live births. The number of stillborn
childi'en for lt>96 — not taken into consideration with the live births — was 127,213.
Innnature marriages are a serious evil which the go^•ernment is trying to reform. In
some of the provinces the usual age for marriage among women has been from 12 to 18
years, and for boys the age was but little over. It is claimed, however, that a favour-
able change is being brought about. Naturally, this has produced a dwarfed race.
The Japanese are not a strong people, as a whole, their constant labour, exposure, their
feet (many (jf them being in the water when employed upon the farm), having had a
most injvirious effect, although apjiarentlv thev enjoy good health. They appear to have
a tendency to disease of the lungs. This was particularly observed among Jinricksha
men.

The people are cleanly, and their towns and streets are remarkably so, owing
probably to the fact that all the garbage is carefully saved for fertilizing pui-poses.

ON CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMIGRATION ' 423

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

There are large numbers of lepers about the temples and on the roads leading thereto.
No provision is made for their care, and the official statistics as to numbers — 1.'3,.525 —
are unquestionably greatly underestimated.

One of the most serious blemishes on the national character is lack oi business
integrit)- and disregard foi- the trutli, wliich, it is claimed by Europeans, prevails
among all classes. Without a single e.xception, eveiy European with whom I conversed
(which was many) confirmed this view. An eminent professor in the University of
Tokio, whose name I may not mention, referring to tiie habitual indulgence of falsehood
in Japanese people, said : —

' The Japanese idea of truth is like tlieir idea of punctuality. They admit the
desirability of pun(.'tuality, but if one is behind time they say what is the use of making
a fuss about it. Tliey respect a man who tells the truth, but they say one can not
always tell the truth, and what of it ] It is a desirable thing, but not always
practicable.'

The result of such a view of veracity is that indivitlually, with exceptions, they can
not be trusted when they have interests involved. The standing of the Chinamen
among business men in these respects is much better.

The Japanese are endeavouring and are making connnendable progress in perfect-
ing their school system, but its efficiency, like everything else in the country, has been
greatly exaggerated, and is largely on paper, which is etpially true of the educational
attainments of the mass of the people. To be able to read and write, with a limited
knowledge of mathematics, does not indicate the .same degree of mental culture which
these attainments would in people of European origin, and with the mass of the people
it indicates no moral culture whatever. In view of the limited resources of the country
and the constantly increasing pojiulation, it is apparent that the government will have
great difficulty in pro\iding school facilities for all in the future, which fact forms a
great incentive on the part of the economists and capitalists to encourage emigration
abroad. The numVjer of children who do not attend school is an unknown quantity,
being very large, and I am inclined to doubt the reliaVjility of the statistics furnished
upon this point.

Many of the disadvantages undei' which these interesting people labt)ur, are such as
should not be charger! up to a wilful blindness. !Much may be attributed to misfortune
and past conditions, and the more enlightened among them look forward with hopeful-
ness to their correction ; but the crowning infamy of their social system, and for which
no excuse can be offered in the present age, is the light in which they regard the social
evil and the conditions resulting therefrom. Every city has its Yoshiwara, or section
set apart for houses of ill-fame, which are authorized and protected by the police.
These people, while isolated for sanitary reasons, are not regarded with shame, but form
an important feature of all the larger connnunities. The inmates of these places, or
' Joro,' as they are called, are reiilenished from the naturally depraved to st>me extent,
but large numbers of innocent girls are unwittingly to themselves and sometimes with
their knowledge of the conse(|uences, solrl by their natural protectors for various reasons
into the Y(jshiwara, from .vhich there is no escape, unless some man buys them out for
his own use. In the latter case, by marriage, they are restored to respectable society
among the lower classes.

A gentleman (an Englishman) who had married a Jaj)anese wife and been adopted
into the famih% having taken the name of Kobayashi Beiki, and who has written a very
large book on the Yoshiwara of Tokio, informed me that he had investigated the records
of the Yoshiwara of that city and found that they show that about 1,-500,000 men had
visited these houses during the year 1897, the law requiring that each visitor should be
registered and reporterl to the police. The prices at which girls are sold into the Yoshi-
wara range from -50 to 1.50 yen, and I was informed that they might be purchased out
at about the same figures. A small section of the press are begiiniing to denounce this
system, but for manv years it must continue to poison the national moi'als and furnish a
supply of lewd women, who from time to time escape abroarl, in spite of the vigilance of
the authorities, who pirofess to be very strict about allowing unmarried women to go
abroad. It should he Vjorne in mind that in this report I am treating exclusively of the

424 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

immigrating class, which comes largelj' from the lower oi-der. Naturally, there is a wide
line of deiiiarkation between this class and the better j«?ople, who may constitute one-
fourth of the pojiulation more or less, but it is equally true that there is a sad lack of
national integrity, character and conscience among all. but few of the more cultured,
and poSsiblv excepting the higher official class.

Christianity up to the present time has wielded but little intluenc-e, except in an
educational way, in the ordinary meaning of the term educatinn. Japan is yet a jjagan
.nation and the present tendency, as they break away f^om their ancient relicrion, is to
■drift i'.to opportunism politically, and into agnosticism religiously, with, the moral efl'ects
■which follow such yiews among the ignorant and uneflueated. The result is that the
aiation, as a whole, presents the aspect of Iseing morally mad. There is apptu-entlv no
«ense of responsibility to society or to Deity. Among such a people and under such
conditions the contract labour system is a logical outgro^rth. The emigration companies,
"which prey upon these ignorant but ambitious and conceited people, are regarded by
Ihem, with now and then a lare exception, as a necessity, going with and belonging to
the conditions with which nature and their industrial deyelopment has confronted them.
While the gtivernment denies any responsibility or desire to encourage eniigi-ation, the
conditions which are herein set forth lead up to but one conclusion. The emigration
companies are indifferent to any consideration, except that of profit, while the goyern-
ment permits the .system, if it does not encourage it, in which it has a selfish interest,
Ijecause it assists in relieving the country of a troublesome and what miglit become a
turbulent population.

The limited resources of Japan, its lack of capital and markets for new manu-
factures, which is suggested by the facts I have liei'ein detailed, considered with the
fact that there is no land to which these people will go for agricultural expansion
within the Empire, seems to suggest the impossibility of the absorption of 250,000
male labourers animally, leaving out of consideration women to an equal numlier. It
is true that there is unoccupied land in Formosa, but the Japanese are averse to
emigrating there because of the hot, wet climate. There is also unoccupied land in
Yezzo, but that island is covered with snow one-half the year, and abounds with
mosquitoes during a very hot summer, consequently it is doubtful whether the Japanese
coolie can be hired to go there. The government has made, and is niakinw, efforts to
induce immigratiim to these islands, but with little success. Aside from the climatic
conditions described, which are displeasing to the Japanese, there are other reasons
why they will not go. The Japanese lives in the present : he is not, and never will be,
an independent pioneer ; he wants immediate profits, or wages ; hence he desires to
emigrate to civilized countries where he can earn good wages, and as he expresses it,
'learn English.' and how to farm and do other things as the more-favoured nations do,
and, after he has achieved these results and made some money, place himself in a
position to return to his native land in from three to five years : hence it is an easy
matter for the agents <>f the emigration companies to persuade large nnmbers to come to
the west.

They are beguiled with rosy stories of high wages and immediate emploj-ment.
The Pacific cast is a favoured locality with them, not only on account of the wages paid,
but because of the climate, which is very similar t' > that in the neighbourhood of Nagasaki,
Kobe, and Yokohama ; con-^equently there is a strong immigration movement. At
pre.sent immigrants, aside from those who come to the United states and Canada, are
going to ilexico, Peru, Brazil, Hawaii, Korea, and indeed to every country where
contract labourers may be placed : but it requires much persuasion to induce them to go
to Mexico, Peru and Brazil. The foreign office furnished me the following statistics,
which I do not regard as of much value, of the actual number of Japanese residing in
foreign countries at the end of 1897 :

ox CHINESE AXD JAPANESE IMMW RATION
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

425

San Francisco and neighbourhood .

Tacoma and neighbourhood

Seattle, &c

Portland, iSc

Idaho, &c

Vancouver, &c

< ictori:

Union coal mines.

Hong Kong

Singapore

Thursday Island..

Townsville

Vladivostock

Hawaii

Seoul

Chemul|X)

Gen-san

Fusan

Shanghai

Males.

Females.

Total.

5.212

711

387

461

ssri

402
214
291
122
l&S
991

1,413

.S90

21,47"

1,097

2,285
862

3,397
492

40,608

Total.

269

.5,481

1 61

448

521

412

423

221

i
125

298
247

456

614

1,044
1,473

717
5,884

790
1,664

561
2,670

1,607
27,354
1,887
3,949
1,423
6,067

331

823

13,766

54,374

In con.sideriiig these statistics it should be borne in mind that nearly as many are
returning to Japan from many of these countries as depart ; but the number that return
from the United iStates does not, it seems to me from observation, appear to be as large
in eom]iarison with the number who come as those returning from other countries. The
manner and extent of the encouragement given to emigration b^' public men, capitalists
and otlier individuals, evidenth" interested financially and from an economic standpoint
in the emigration companies, may be inferred from Appendix A hereto attached, being
references to the subject Ijj- the leading English and vernacular newspapers. It will be
oljserved that nearly all of the clippings are tianslations from Japanese papers. The
Japan Times is a government organ, edited by a Japanese and published in English.
The Jap n Mail is an English paper but pro-.Japanese, while the other papers fnjm
which extracts have been taken are independent English papers.

This report would not be complete without a reference to the fact that Australia
and Canada are l)oth legislating against the Japanese, the former restricting the immi-
gration and the latter limiting tiie opportunities for obtaining employment. This
movement, if it goes on, will necessarily have an important effect upi:>n the number who
will tiy to obtain admission to the United States.

During ni)' stay in Japan I was much interested in the information oljtained con-
cerning the light in which the innnigration laws of the United States are regarded. I
came to the conclusion that the average Japanese, by intelligence, is incapable of appre-
ciating the motive behind the policy of the United States. The friendliness of the mass
of the people for the United States and respect in which it is held is unmistakable ;
but this sentiment is childlike in its character, and is not based upon knowledge or a
familiarity with the harmcmy lietween the principles upon whicli the Government of the
United States is based and the laws carrying out those pi-inciples. Hence the immigra-
tion laws of the United States ii'ritate them, because the motive is to them incompre-
hensible. All have an intense longing to visit the United States or to come for the
purposes of labour.

The wealth V class have little or no respect for their own laljouring class as indivi-
duals, and no svrapathv with the toilers in the field and factory. Their condition is
regarded as a decree of fate, and hence those who are capal:)le rarely comprehend the
dignity and rights of labour as it is regarded in this country.

In my former report, I gave the facts as I gathered them touching the manner
emigrants are sent to this and other countries. In this, I have endeavoured to give a
brief i)ird's-e}'e view, superficial in some respects, but, as a whole, I believe, true to life
of the motives which lie behind the system described and the conditions which make it
possible. There is mucli more that might be said, but I fear it might be deemed irre-

426 REPORT OF ROYAL COMMISSION

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

levaut. I beg indulgence in expressing my opinion here, however, that the treaty which
will go into effect in August between Japan and the United States is a great mistake
for the people of Japan, as well as a great blunder on tlie part of the United (States.

Mv reasons in general for this view woukl \mA be appropriate in this report, but
among tliem is the effect which it would ha\e upon the power of the United States to
control innnigration from Japan. I have been informed that the treaty between Jaj)an
and England, made at the same time, makes provision for the ccmtrol of immigration by
Canada, New Zealand, Austialia and other English colonies in the Pacific. Tlie Anglo-
Saxon, Latin and Semitic races mix, and in time make respectable men and women,
even from the lowest conditions, but the oriental races do not mix well with the people
•of Europe, and the mixture, unless made among people in affluent circumstances, is
always degrading to the European, ^^'ealth and education may and does modify
natural tendencies. Much trouble may, in my opinion, be expected from the results of
this treaty, the difficulties in tlie way of regulating immigration being certain to be
much greater than lieret(jfore.

The appendices hereto attached are eviflences which sustain the views herein
expressed, gathered by the wav, and which might have been multiplied ad infinitum
had I made these lines a special feature of my investigation. The special features of my
investigation were set forth in part in mv former report. The seconrl special feature
was the obtaining of inf<:)rmation bearing directly upon individual emigrants and bofiies
of emigrants going to the United States, which might be used in excluding them < in this
side as contract labourers. To this end, I used everv practical method at my connnand,
causing bodies of outgoing emigrants to be inter\iewed both at Kobe and Yokohama by
the most trustworthy persons I could secure for that purpose, also causing the hotel
keepers ty be pumped. It was either that my agencies were unreliable or the emigrants
had l>een too well trained to give themselves away ; at least my efforts in that direction
were unsuccessful. The most reliable man, as I thought, whom 1 secured for this pur-
pose, threw up the job on the advice of an American missionary whom he went to con-
sult. It may be possible to occasionally secure evidence of this character, but it is very
dithcult, and I did not succeed.

The consular officers in Japan are, in mv opiinion, thoroughly efficient, and it is a
nuitter of pride to a citizen of the United States to compare them with the consular
representatives of other countries ; but uniler tlie present laws they are practically help-
less in the matter of emigration. The character of their duties is such that they can
not make a specialty of looking after emigrants, and if it were otherwise nothing could
be accomplisliefl witlKiut a secret service fund. Ejen an effort in tliat direction, as a
permanent l)enefit, would be an experiment.

In conclusion, I wish briefly to refer to the difficulties under which I laboured, and
vet I may not dare to enter into detail upon the limitations which surround one
gathering information which is regarded by the Japanese as injurious to their intere.sts.
They are intensely patriotic, which sentiment extends to a sense irf duty not to know-
ingly 'give each other away." The educated and intelligent are shrewd and intuitive
in their perceptions, and are what the English designate as 'clever,' the word being
synonymous with tricky. Few Europeans speak Japanese sufficiently well to make
good interpreters, and I found but one European who coukl both read and speak Japanese ;
hence nearly all the work in the nature of translatiim must either l)e iloiie liy Japanese
or by having a .Japanese read to a European who speaks .Japanese and writes in English
as the Japanese reads.

Then, again, all Europeans in Japan (which word in the orient includes citizens of
the United States, are there for special and personal interest. They do not like to
acquire the ill will of the people among whom they li\e, iind consequently help from
that source in all but two or three instances was half-hearted. Under the.se difficulties
and many others I did the best that I could, and the information transmitted, of what-
ever value it may be, I believe to be reliable and accurate.

Hoping that my labour herein may contribute something to the better enforcement
of the immigration laws,

W. M. RICE,
United States Commissionei- (jf Immigration.

ox CHISBSE AXD JAPANESE IMMIGRATION
SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

427

WAGE8 IN JAPAN, 1897.
(Frimi tlie Report of the Bureau of Labour .Stati.stics of California).

OcCUP.iTlONS.

Blacksmiths

Brickmakers

Carpenters

Compositors

Confectioners

Coopers

Door and screen makers .
Dye

Fishermen

(iardeners

Jewellers

-Joiners

Labourers . . _

Labourers, agricultural (male). . .
Labourers agricultural (female) . .

L.acquered object makers

Metal utensil makers

Mine-workers

Oil-pressers

Papennakers

Pasters, paper

Plasterers ....

Printers

Roofers, shingle and thatch

Roofers, tile

Saddlers

Sake-makers .,

Sawyers .

Scutchers of cotton '.

Servants, domestics

Servants

Ship-carpenters

Shoemakers

Shoemakers, .Japanese shoes

Silkworm cultivators (male)

Silkworm cultivators (female). . . .
Snuff box, purses, &c. makers of

So\'-makers

.Spinners, silk

Stonecutters

Straw-matting weavers

Tailors, European clotliing

Tailors, Japanese clothing

Tea- preparers

Tobacco-cvitters

Weavers (male)

Weavers (female)

Wheelwrights

Wage.s.

Day.

19
23
17*

19?,
23i
21"
22A
17"
1.5
9i
22A
24"
24
ISi
17i
225
25"

24
27
23

25
174

25
23
19

1«4

loi

20j

]!i

22"
29
ISA
22j
21"
13i
9i
20j

Month.

$ cts.

4 82i

4 95

1 41

79i

4 18A

428 BE PORT OF llOYAL COMMISSIOX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

THE NATAL ACT.

Whereas it is desirable to place certain restrictions on immigiation,

Be it therefore enacted b)' the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice and consent of the Legislative Assembly of Natal, as follows : —

1. This Act may be known as "The Immigration Restriction Act, 1897."

•1. This Act shall apply to :—

(a) Any person possessed of a certificate in the form set out in the schedule A to
to this Act, annexed and signed by the Colonial Secretary or the Agent General of
Natal, or any officer appointed by the Natal Government for the purposes of this Act
wliether in or out of Natal.

(h) Any person of a class for whose immigration into Natal provision is made by
law or by a .scheme approved by Government.

(c ) Any person .specially exempted from the operation of this Act by a writing
under the hand of the Colonial Secretarj'.

(d) Her Majesty's land and sea forces.

(e) The officers and crew of any ship of war of any government.

(f) Any person duly accredited to Natal by or under the authority of the Imperial
or any other go^-ernment.

3 The immigration into Natal, by land or sea, of any person of any of the classes
defined in the following subsections, hereinafter called "prohibited immigrant," is pro--
hibited, namely : —

(a) Any person who, when asked to do so by an officer appointed under tljiis Act,
shall fail to (himself) write out and sign, in the characters of any language of Europe,
an application to the Colonial Secretary in the form set out in Schedule B to this Act.

(h) Any person being a pauper or likely to become a public charge.

(cj Any idiot or insane person.

(d) Any person suft'ering from a loathsome or a dangerous contagious disease.

(e) Any penson who, not having received a free pardon, has within two years been
convicted of a felony or other infamous crimes or misdemeanour involving moral turpi-
tude, and not being a mere political offijnce.

(f) Any prostitute and any person living' on the prostitution of others.

4. Any prohibited immigrant making his way into or being found within Natal, in
disregard of the provisions of this Act, shall be deemed to have contravened this Act
and shall be liable, in addition to any other penalty, to be removed from the colonj- and
upon conviction may be sentenced to imprisonment not exceeding six months without
hard labour. Provided that such impi-isonment shall cease for the purpose of deporta-
tion of the offender, or if he shall find two approved sureties each in the sum of fifty
pounds sterling that he will leave tlie colony within one month.

5. Any person appearing to be a prohibited immigrant within the meaning of secti(->n
3 of this Act and not coming within the meaning of any of the subsection.s (c), (d), (e),
if), of the said section 3 shall be allowed to enter Natal upon the following condi-
tions : —

(a) He shall, before landing, deposit with an officer appointed under this Act the
sum of one hundred pounds sterling.

(h) If such person shall, within one week after entering Natal, obtain from the
Colonial Secretary, or a magistrate, a certificate that he does not come within the pi'o-
hibition of this Act, the deposit of one hundred pounds sterling shall be returned.

(c ) If such person shall fail to obtain such certificate within one week, the deposit
of one humlred pounds sterling may be forfeited, and he may be treated as a prohibited
immigrant.

O.V CHINESE AND JAPANESE IMMKIRATION 429

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 54

Provided that, in the case of any person enteriiif,' Natal under tliis section, no lia-
bility shall attach to the vessel or to the owners of the vessel in which he mav have
arrivefl at any port of the colony.

(i. Any person who shall satisfy an officer appointed under this Act that he has
been formerly domiciled in Natal, and that he does not come within tlie meanini.' of any
of the subsections (c), (d), {f), (/), of section .3 of this Act, shall not he re.Ltarflerl as a
prohibited immigrant.

7. The wife and any minor child of a person not being a prohibiteil immigi'ant shall
be free from any prohiliition iniposefl bv this Act.

f*. The master and owners of any vessel from which any prohibited immigrant may
be landed shall lie jointly and severally liable to a penalty of not less than one hundred
pounds sterling, and such penalty may be increased up to five thousand pounds sterlin"
by sums of one hundred pounds sterling, each for every five prohibited immigrants after
the first five, and the vessel may be made executable by a decree of the Supreme Court
in satisfaction of any such penalt}-, and the vessel may be refused a clearance outwards
until such penalty has been paid, and until provision has been made by the master to
the satisfaction of an officer appointed under this Act for the conveyance out of the
colony of each pirohiliited immigrant who may have been so landed.

9. A iirohibited immigrant shall not be entitled to a license to carry on anv trade
or calling, nor shall he lie entitled to ac(|uire land in leasehold, freehold, or otherwise to
e.vercise the franchise, or to be enrolled as a burgess of any borough or on the roll of any
township ; and any license or franchise right which may ha^•e been acquired in contra-
vention of this Act shall be void.

10. Any officer thereto authorized by go\ ernment may make a contract with the
master, owners, or agent of any vessel for the c(.inveyance of any prohibited immigrant
found in Natal to a port in or near to such immigrant's country of birth, anrl anv such
immigrant with his personal effects may be placed by a police officer on board such
vessel, and shall in such case, if (iestitute, be supplied with a sufficient sum of monev to
enable him to live for (me month according to his circumstances in life after disembark-
ing from such vessel.

11. Any person who shall in any way wilfully assist any piohibited inmiigrant to
contravene the provisions of this Act shall be deemed to have contravened this Act.

12. Any person who shall in any way wilfully assist the entry into Natal of any
prohibited immigrant of the class (/) in section 3 of this Act shall he deemed to have
contra\'ened this Act, and shall upon conviction be liable to be impi-isoned with hard
labcjur for any period not exceeding twelve months.

13. Any person who shall be wilfully instrumental in bringing into Natal an idiot
or insane person without a written or printed autht)rity, signed by the Colonial Secre-
tary, shall be deemed to have contravened this Act, and in addition to anv other penalty
shall be lialjle for the cost of the maintenance of such idiot or insane person whilst in
the colony.

14. Any police otticer or other officer appointed therefor under this Act mav, sub-
ject to the provisions of section -5, prevent any prohibited innnigrant from entering
Natal by land or sea. .

1.5. The Governor may from time to time apjjoint, and at pleasure remove officer's
for the pui'pose of carrying out the provisions of this Act, and may define the duties of
such officers, and such officers shcall carry out the insti'uctions from time to time given to
them bv the ministerial head of their department.

16. The Go\ernor in Council may, from time to time, make, amend and repeal rules
and regulations for the better carrying out of the provisions of this Act.

17. The penalty for any contra\ention of this Act or any rule or regulation passed
thereunrler, where no higher penalty is expressly imposed, shall not exceed a fine of fifty
pounds sterling, or imprisijnment with or without hard labour, until payment of such
fine or in addition to such fine, but not exceeding in any case thi'ee months.

430 REPORT OF ROYAL COilillSSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

L"<. All contraventions of this Act or of rules or regulations thereunder and suits
for penalties or other moneys not exceeding one hundred pounds sterling shall be cog-
iiizal)le bv magistrates.
Colony of Xatal.

This is to certify that of

aged by trade pr calling a is a tit and

proper person to l)e received as an immigrant in Natal.

Dated at this day of

(Signature.)

SCHEDULE B.

To the Colonial Secretary.

I claim to be exempt from the operation of Act Xo. 1897.

5Iy full name is . Mj' place of aliode for the past

twehe months has been
My business or calling is
I was born at in the year

Given at Government House, Natal, this fifth day of May, 1897.

By command of His Excellencj- the Governor.

THOS. K. MURRAY,

Colonial Secretary.

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No 64 A. 1902

RETURN

(64)

To an Address of the House of Commons, dated February 19, 1902, for a copy
of all papers and correspondence relating to the Coronation of His Majesty
the King, the Imperial Conference which is to be held in London, and
the appointment of Canadian delegates to the same.

R. W. SCOTT,

Secretary of State.

(From Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Miii/o.)

DowNiNO Street, December 27, 1901.

It has become my duty to inform you that the Coronation of Hi.s Most Gracious
Majesty King Edward VII has been fixed to take place on June 26, 1902.

2. It is His Majesty's desire that the great self-governing colonies of the Empire
should be represented on this occasion by their leading statesmen, and I have accord-
ingly to request you to be so good as to convey to tlie Premier of Canada an invitation
on tlie pai-t of His Majesty's Government to visit this country in June next. It is n<:)t
anticipated that the duration of the actual ceremonies in connection with the Coronation
will extend beyond a few flays; but it would probably be convenient to Sir T\'ilfrid
Laurier to arrive in England a few days beforehand, and His Majesty's Goverinnent
hope therefore that he will consifler himself their guest for a fortnight from the date of
his arrival. It would be an additional satisfaction to them if Sir Wilfrid Laurier shoulfl
lie accompanied bv somi^ lady member of his family.

.'}. It will be readily understood that on an occasion like this it is necessaiy that
all arrangements should be made some months in advance ; and without therefore desir-
ing to press for an immediate answer, His Majesty's Government would be glad to learn
at Sir Wilfrid Laurier's early convenience whether it will be in his power to accept their
invitation.

i. The question i>f representative detachment of troops from the various colonies is
also under the consideration of His Majesty's Government; and whenever a decision has
been ari-i\-ed at on this subject, I shall address you in a further despatch.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

G4— I

2 IMMIGRATION EXPENDITURE

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

2. The number of immigi-ants iei>oi'tecl each year to have settled eaeli year in the
Dominion of Canada during the ten (10) years from 1S91 to 1901, and total for the ten
years 1

AN.SWKR.

Calendar vear 1891 l'7,0:}5

.r " 1892 27,S98

1893 :.. 29,632

1894 20,829

1895 18,790

1896 16,835

1897 20.016

1898 30,7-12

1899 44,506

Jan 1 to June 30 (6 months) 1900 23,895

Fiscal year 1900-01 49,149

309,327

mhSf Xhe above is a statement of immigrant arrivals at the ocean ports from 1891 to
1901, inclusive, who declared their destination to be Canada, also those from the United
States (from 1S97) who were reported by i;o\-ernment agents to have crossed tlie
boundarv with the intention of settling in Canada.

'••.'I:. 3. The number of immigrant agents employed by the Dominion Government each
year in Great Britain and Ireland from 1S91 to 1901, and the total amount paid each
year to the said agents, anrl the auKJUUt spent each year for jirinting and other expenses
bv the said agents I

Approximate statement showing number of immigrant agents employed bv the
Dominion Government each year in Great Britain and Ireland from Julv 1, 1891, to
June 30, 1901 : the total amount paid each year to the said agents for salaries and tlie
amount spent each year for printing and other expenses by said agents, as follows : —

Vear.

Number

of
Agents.

Salaries.

Printing
and other
Expanses.

1891 1892

1892-1893

1893-1.894

8
8
I

6
13

9
10
14

$ 'cts.

5,886 67
7,509 26
10,569 64
10,638 29
9,438 28
12,643 41
13,240 23
13,203 22

16,800 on

19,950 00

.$ cts.

13,805 63
19,0;i8 64
1.5,420 84

1894-1895

18951896..

1896-1897

1897-1898

1898-1899 '.

8,669 02

8,816 86

11,091 00

IT.r.Il 5(i

lS,i;79 23

1899-1900

26,1.50 73

1900-1901

26,931 21

4. Tiie number of immigrant agents employed by the Dominion Government each
year in the Continent of Europe from 1891 to 1901, and the total amount paid each year
to the said agents, and amount spent each year for printing and other expenses by the
said agents ?

IMMIGRATION EXPENDITURE

SESSIONAL PAPER No 68

AXSWKU.

mhqsj Approximate statement of number of immijiration aj^ents employed by tlie Dominion
Government each year on the Continent of Europe, from July 1, 1891, to .June 30, 1901 ;
the amount jiaid each year to the said aijents, and amount spent each year for printini;
and other expenses'by the said 'aj^ent.s, as follows; —

1891-1892.
1892-1893.
1893-1894.
1894-1895
1S95-189G
1896-1897.
1897-1 S98.
1898-1899.
1899 1900.
1900-1901 .

Year.

Number

of
Agents.

Salaries.

$ cts.

686 51
825 00
2,684 97
1,200 00
1,200 00
1,976 94
8,373 06
6,209 41
4,239 69
1,600 00

Printing
and other
Exi^nses.

§ cts.

248 00

620 80

4,175 20

519 05

600 01 i

963 45

2.230 59

2,449 81

2,463 05

1,9:44 86

5. The number of inmiigrant agents employed by the Dominion Government each
year in the United States of America, from 1S91 to 1901, and the total amount piaid each
year to the said agents, and amounts spent each year for [irinting and other expenses bj-
the said agents, and bv the Government of tfie Dominion of Canada '(

Apiiroximate statement showing number of iuunigrant agents employed by the
l)ominion Government each year in the United States of America, from July 1, 1S91,
to June 30, 1901, the total amount paid each year to the said agents for salaries, and
the amount spent each year for printing and other expenses by said agents, as follows : —

Year.

Number

of
Agents.

Salaries.

Printing
and other
Expenses.

1891-1892

1892-1893

1893-1891

19
41

8
4
12
28
23
16
27

S cts.

9,221 19

22,032 41

1.5,614 03

5,939 81

5,102 78

4,880 30

14,884 90

16,316 35

15,2.52 02

18,957 98

$ cts.

12,668 19
31,105 45
30,297 75

1894-1895

189.5-1896

1896-1897 .~.

2,.50S 15

1,844 31

G,.352 09

28,197 44

1897-1898

1898-1899

1899-1900

19110-1901

29,277 35
24.988 15
30,161 12

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77 A. 1902

RETURN

("I

To an Address of the House of Commons, dated February 19, 1902, for copies
of all letters, telegrams and other correspondence between the Govern-
ments of Canada, Australia and New Zealand, or any member thereof,
respecting trade, transportation, cable, and other subjects of intercolonial

concern.

R. W. SCOTT,

Secretary of State.

Downing Street, March 2, 1900.
Governor General,

The Right Honourable

The Earl of Minto, G.C.M.G., &c., &c., &c.

I have the honour to transmit to you, with reference to your telegram of the 20th
ultimo, copy of resolution submitted to me by the Pacific Cable Committee, respecting
the proposed concessions to the Eastern Telegraph Company, the text of which has, I
understand, been sent to you by telegraph by the High Commissioner for Canada.

Copy of a telegram on the subject which I have adch'essed to the Governors of New
South Wales and Victoria is also inclosed.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

PACIFIC CABLE COMMITTEE.

Resolved unanimously ; —

' That this committee would urge that no concessions should be made by any of the
Australian Governments to the Eastern Telegraph Company, as a condition of layino- a
cable between Africa and Australia, until this committee has had an opportunity of
considering and reporting on the eifect of the Pacific cable scheme.'

The committee desire to submit to the Secretary of State for the Colonies a copy of
a resolution passed at the sitting of the committee on February 23.

(Telegram.)

Mr. Chamberlain to the Governors of New South Wales and Victoria. (Sent 3.1.5 p n)
Febi-uary 21, 1900.)

Following is text of unanimous resolution passed bj' Pacific Cable Committee
yesterday : Begins — ' That this committee would ui'ge that no concessions should be
made by any of the Australian Govei-nments to the Eastern Telegraph Compan}', as a
condition of laying a cable between Africa and Australia, until this committee has had
an opportunity of considering and reporting on the efiect of such concessions upon the
financial prospects of the Pacific cable scheme.' — Ends.

Under existing circumstances I concur, and hope j^our Ministers have not yet
communicated to the Eastern Telegraph Company decision arrived at by conference
77—1

2 CORRESPONDENCE ON SITBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Downing Street, March 9, 1900.
The Officer Administering

The Government of Canada.

I am directed by the Secretary of .State for the Colonies to inform you tliat the
imdermentioned parliamentary papers have been sent to you by book post :

Subject of paper : — Proposed construction of cable across the Pacific Ocean.

No. of copies : — Twenty-five.

H. BERTRAM COX.

The Honourable tlie Premier,
Ottawa.

Premier's Office,
Wellinoton, February 16, 1900.

1 have the honour to confirm my cablegram to you of the 13tli instant, as
follows : —

' Advisable wire your Agent-General if Eastern Company's proposals accepted will
mean difference over one hundred thousand pounds annuallj- in earnings Pacific cable,
and impress Secretaiy of State that annual maximum risk of loss of twenty thousand to
British Government will be doubled. Also represent that at Premiers' conference three
colonies were represented which liave always been unfavourable to Pacific cable, whilst
New Zealand and Canada not repi-esented at all.

R. J. SEDDON.

The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,
Ottawa.

17 Victoria Street,
London, S.W., March 2.3, 1900.

I think it will be well bv this mail to bring down to date the record of what has
transpired in regard to the proposals of tlie Eastern Extension Telegraph Company in
connection witli the projected cable between Australia and Cape, and the proceedings
of the Pacific Cable Board, since I last wrote you on the 3rd instant.

With regard to the former question, a cable correspondence, (copy of which I in-
close for your information) has passed between Mr. Chamberlain and the Government
of New South Wales, with the result tliat it has Ijeen ehcited that an agreement has not
actually been entered into with the Eastern Extension Company ; that Mr. Chamber-
lain has urged upon the Govenrments interested not conclude any agreement until the
Pacific Cable Committee has examined the question ; and that the details of the Eastern
Extension Company's offer, and the views held thereon in Australia, as communicated
in a cable received by Mr. Chamberlain from the Government of New South Wales,
dated the 3rd instant, have been communicated to the Cable Committee with a request
to report thereon as soon as possible.

The matter was further considered by tlie committee at its meeting on Monday
last, the 19th instant, and a resolution was unanimously adopte<l of which the following
is the text : —

'This committee have had before them a reference of the Secretary of State for
the Colonies asking for their opinion of the probable effect upon the revenue of the
Pacific Cable of the proposed agreement lietween the Eastern Telegraph Company and
the Australian Colonies for a cable between the Cape and Australia.

' The committee have veiy carefully considered the said agreement and they are
unanimously of opinion that its effect must be to injure very materially the revenue of
the cable.'

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 3

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

The subject is also to come up again for further consideration at the next meeting
of the committee.

Your caV)legram of the 6th instant, reading as follows, dul}^ reached me : —

' Fleming lias cablegrams from London cable manufacturers showing Pacific cable
may be made and laid within one year. Please urge Commission to get cable under
contract at earliest moment.'

I at once made the contents of this message known to my colleagues on the committee.
Its deliberations are being proceeded with as rapidly as possible. There is, however,
naturally a mass of technical matter regarding the construction and cost of the cable to
be prepared and discussed. The committee has had frequent meetings and has arrived,
as I think, at the stage when the preparation of the specifications for tenders is possible.
I shall do my best to prevent any avoidable delay taking place in asking for tenders
for the work.

I propose taking an early opportunity of again seeing Mr. Chamberlain on the sub-
ject and of discussing with him the position that is cj-eated by the resolutions of the
Cable Committee, and the termination of the existing agreements between the Austral-
ian Governments and the Eastern Extension Company on the .SOth proximo.

STRATHCONA.

(Telegram.)

From the Officer administering the Government of New South Wales to Mr. Chamber-
lain. Received Colonial Office 2.7 p.m., March 2, 1900.

Referring to your telegram, March 1, Prime Minister informs me that agreement
not actually entered into. Eastern Telegraph Company aware of result of Premiers'
conference. Colonj' prepared to accept in terms of my cipher telegram of Februarj' 21.

(Telegram. )

From Mr. Chamberlain to the Officer administering the Government of New South
Wales. (Sent 6.5 p.m., March 3, 1900.)

In view of the deep anxiety felt in the other colonies interested in the Pacific
cable as to the effect which the proposed arrangement may have on that undertaking,
and the possibility that Canada and New Zealand may withdraw their support, I hope
that your Ministers will defer concluding any agreement, as suggested in my telegram of
24th ultimo, until the committee has examined the question.

(Telegram.)

From the Officer administering the Government of New South Wales to Mr. Chamber-
lain. (Received Colonial Office 6.10 p.m., March 3, 1900.)

Eastern Telegraph proposals — there seems to be some misapprehension — Ministers
ready and anxious to carry out their undertaking with regard to Pacific cable.
Admitted on all sides that this cannot be completed for three years, probably more. In
the meantime Eastern Telegraph Company' olFer immediate reduction of rates to four
shillings or to about sixteen per cent, and by sliding scale coming in three years to two
shillings and sixpence as business increases — also to lay down cable Cape to Adelaide
and then reduce present excessive Cape rates from seven shillings threepence to two
shillings and sixpence per word. No concessions asked for or gi\en until Pacific
cable completed, they then want direct offices so as to compete on equal terms and in
the meantime any reduction whatever to remain until Pacific cable laid. Ministers add
that their present agreement terminates April 30, and if no fresh one made. Company
can instead of I'educing rates increase them up to eight shillings per word.
77— U

4 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

(Telegram.)

From Mr. Chamberlain to the Officer administering the Gov-ernment of Xew South
Wales. (Sent 6.4.5 p.m., March 13, 1900.)

Your telegram of !March 3 communicated to Cable Conunittee. They have been
requested to report as soon as possible.

The Board of Trade,

Ottawa, Can., April 23, 1900.
To the Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Ont.

I have the honour to inclose for the information of the Government, a copy of
resolutions referring to the Pacific cable, passed at a recent meeting of this board.

CECIL BETHUNE,

Secretary.

The Board of Trade of the City of Ottawa,

Ottawa, Canada, April 10, 1900.
To the Secretarj' of State,
Ottawa, Ont.

I have been instructed to convey to you the following resolutions, assented to at a
general meeting of this board held on the 2nd inst., in support of the Pacific cable.

Mesolution Xo. 1.

That while the proposed Pacific cable would foster trade and intercolonial inter-
course, it would at the same time constitute the initial link in a system of cables to all
British possessions around the globe, that such a system would form a new bond of
Imperial unity of inestimable value.

1. That this board regards it of vital importance that the Pacific cable should be
completed, as a State undertaking, without delay.

2. That in view of the great object to be attained, this board is strongly of the
opinion that it w'ould be wise policy to make full provision for ultimate State ownership
in any arrangements hereafter made to lay cables by private companies, between
British possessions in any part of the globe.

3. That this board recommends that principle of State ownership be especially
provided for in the cable proposed to be laid by a private company between South
Africa and Australia.

Resohition No. 2.

That this board attaches so much importance to the resolution respecting the
Pacific cable that it especially requests the members for the city of Ottawa to bring the
subject before the Government and Parliament.

Resolution No. 3.

That a copy of the resolution respecting the Pacific cable be transmitted to the
principal Chambers of Commerce in the United Kingdom with the request that they
will move the Home Government to reserve the right to Her JIajesty to assume
possession of the cable in any arrangement for laying a cable by a private company
between South Africa and Australia.

Trusting the foregoing resolutions may meet with your approval.

CECIL BETHUNE,

Secretary.

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 5

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

April 24, 1900.
Cecil Betiiune, E.sq.,

Seeretaiy, Board of Trade, Ottawa.
I have the honour to acknowledge tlie receipt of your letter of the 23rd instant,
transmitting cop}' of a resolution respecting the Pacific Cable, and to stat that the same
has been subniitte^l to His Excellency the Governor General in Council.

JOSEPH POPE,

Under-Secretary of State.

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.W., May i, 1900.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Ottawa.

In continuation of my letter of March 23, and former correspondence, I think it
well to write you briefly as to the position of the Pacific cable matter, and the proposals
of the Eastern Extension Telegrajih Company, as they stand to-day.

As jsromised in my c<5mmunication referred to above, I saw Mr. Chamberlain in
reference to the point raised in the concluding paragraph thereof. After some discus-
sion Mr. Chamberlain agreed to telegraph to the Australian Colonies, urging them not
to grant the concessions asked for by the Eastern Extension Company, and recommend-
ing, if any new arrangement was necessary in order to secure the construction of the
Cape-Australia cable and to bring about a reduction of rates, tliat it should be rather on
the lines of the existing agreement, and that nothing should be done, and no advantages
given to the company, which would tend in any waj- to prejudice the Pacific cable.

It has recently been announced in the newspapers that the Premiers of the
Australian Colonies had decided to consi<ler the (juestion again when they met to discuss
certain proposed amendments to the Commonwealth Bill, but the latest information
goes to show that the matter has been referred by the Premiers to the Postmasters
General, for consideration and report ; and it stands in that position at present.

From the repc.irt of the recent meeting of the Eastern Extension Companj^, and also
from statements that have been made in the newspapers, it is e\-ident that the Colonies
of Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania, have agreed to give the Eastern
Extension Company the concessions sought for in those Colonies, but this has always
been looked upon as a possibility in view of the fact that the Colonies specified (except
l^erhaps Tasmania, which, however, is not important) are not, and never have been, in-
terested in the Pacific cable in the same way as the other Colonies of Australasia.

In the meantime, the Pacific Cable Committee have been preparing an interim
report on the matters referred to them in the instrument of appointment. This report
has been agreed upon, and I\Ir. Chamberlain tells me it is proposed to submit it (or the
essential [lortions of it) to the Governments concerned by telegragh, at once, in order
that the matter may be proceeded with immediatel_v.

I was very glad to receive your telegram of the 4th ulto., in reply to my letter of
March 21, reading as follows : —

' Ad^'ised by Government Engineer Roy, who is perfectly familiar with San Juan
harbour, that head of bay suitable site for station — Will be within half mile of suitable
landing place for cable — Open all year around for vessels, thus aflbrding ample facilities
for supplies — Government has telegraph line in operation from San Juan to Victoria,
there connects with Canadian Pacific system which connects with cable from Vancouver
Island to Mainland — Advise that Admiralty maps accurately describe locality — Will
send tracing of Canadian map Vancouver Island — Buildings in locality wooden.'

I at once communicated its contents to Mr. H. A. Taj'lor, who has since returned
his thanks for tlie information. As soon as the tracing of the Canadian map of Van-
couver Island, which you were good enough to promise to furnish, comes to hand, I will
also send it on to Mr. Taj-lor. In the meantime his firm have proceeded with the draw-

6 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

ing up of the specifications and they are now ready. I understand from Mr. Chamber-
lain tliat tenders will be invited immediately, and that this part of the matter will not
be delayed pending the consideration, by the Government.s concerned, of the report of
the Pacific Cable Committee.

STRATHCONA.
(Paraphrase of cable.)

Mr. Chamherluin to Lord Minto.

London, May 15, 1900.

Committee on Pacific cable report estimate furnished by consulting engineer places
cost of laying cable (including two main ships) at £1,709,000, and committee are assured
that the contractors' prices will be within five per cent of this.

Proposed core for Fanning section, 600 pounds copper, 340 }>ounds gutta perchaper
knot, gixing eight paying words per minute.

Committee estimates annual expenditure on basis of total capital outlay of £1,800,-
000 as follows :—

Interest and sinking fund £ 70,000

Working e.xpenses 2-5,000

^laintenance 5.5,0Q0

Total £ 1.50,000

Respecting duplication of cable they refer to previous report and say that it would
probably be in the interests of associated governments and eastern c<.)mpanies to have a
working agreement respecting rates and exchange of traffic.

In the event of not having an agreement of this nature, duplication might be re-
quired in the near future and prevent cable being self-supporting for many years.

In eighteen months cable could lie manufactured and laid, and it is estimated that
it would obtain 960,000 words, oi-five-twelths of t<.tal traffic of L',.300,000 words in 1902.

Committee recommend a rate of two shillings for Pacific portion, showing an esti-
mated deficit of £.")4,000, but have reason to hope that deficit would disappear in some
years under the stimulus of reduced rates and development of American-Canadian and
local Pacific business.

The management to be by board of eight in the same proportions as committee, un-
paid, but with a paid manager.

C'(_>pies of report being sent by post.

If the project is to be proceeded with, an early decision of the governments interested
is desired.

.1. CHAMBERLAIN.

(Confidential.)

Mr. Chamherlain. to Lord Minto.

Downing Strert, May 16, 1900.
Governor General,

The Right Honourable

The Earl of Minto, G.C.M.G.

A'C, itc, etc.

I have the honour to transmit to you, with reference to my telegram of the 15th
instant, which was also sent to the Governors of the other colonies interested in the
Pacific cable scheme, copies of the report of the Pacific Cable Committee.

2. I shall be glad if you will inform me by telegraph whether your government are
prepared to proceed with the project on the lines recommended by the committee.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

17 VicTOHiA Street,

London, S.W., June 1, 1900.

The Right Honourable .Sir "Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,
Ottawa.

I I eg to refer to my letter of the -tth ultimo, respecting the Pacific cable, which
has been acknowledged in ]\Ir. McGee's letter of the 15th idem.

Tlie following telegram appeared in the I'imes of !May .5 : —

'The Postmasters General of New South Wales and Victoria have come to an
agreement on the disputed points in the propiosed agreement with the Eastern Extension
Company. The arrangement is made subject to the ajjproval of the company, and the
ratificatifin bv the Victorian and Xew South Wales Parliaments, which will not meet
for two months. The tarLfif in the meantime will remain unaltered. The two govern-
ments are to have the option < f purchasing the cable. No other company is to be
allowed to open q^ces in the colonies before the Extension Company.'

I at once communicated with Mr. Chamberlain asking for details of the reported
agreement, so that it might be possible to see whether the modified arrangement men-
tioned removed the objectionable features of the pnjpojjed agreement with the Eastern
Extension Companv — which in its original form was regarded as likely to Ite jirejudicial
to the Pacific cable project. I have now received from Mr. Chamberlain a letter, of
which a copy is inclosefl, together with the transcript of the telegram that is referred
to showing the amendments in the proposed agreement submitted by the Postmasters
General of New South Wales and Victoria.

A copy is also transmitted of the agreement between the Eastern Extension Tele-
graph Co. and the C'olc»nies of South Australia, Western Australia and Tasmania, which
^vill enable you to understand the bearing of the modifications now under consideration.

You wOl observe that the principal alterations relate to the raising of rates and
terminals after any reduction under clauses 5 and 7, to a modification of the clause
under which the company is empowered to open offices ; and to the provision of a pur-
chase clause to be read in conjunction with the rest of the agreement.

Although I have no official information on the subject, I am led to understand that
the Eastern Extension Co. decline to accept the amendments as they now stand ; and I
am further informed that the press of Victoria and New South Wales is engaged
strongly advocating the construction of the cable between Africa and Australia, so that
the promised lower rates may be immediately secured.

It seems to me that the acceptance of the original agreement or of thfe modifica-
tions cannot but prejudicially aifect the possibilities of the commercial success of the
Pacific cable ; and if you agree with me, I shall be glad to ha\'e a telegi'am on the sulj-
ject at your earliest convenience, in order tliat I may again approach Mr. Chamberlain.

It might be well, also, if you view the matter from the same stand])oint as I do,
that you should communicate directly with the Governments of Victoria anfl New South
Wales on the subject.

Judging from some unofficial communications that have come to my notice, there
seemed some time ago in Canada to be an impression that Canada might be prepared to
waive opposition to an agreement such as that proposed in the event of power being
retained by the go\'ernments concerned in the Pacific cable to purchase the cable be-
tween Africa and Australia.

This view of the matter, however, does not commend itself to my judgment, for
reasons which may have already been made clear in my pi'evious despatches on the
subject.

STRATHCONA.

(Immediate).

Downing Street, May 2(5, 1900.
The High Commissioner for Canada.

I am directed by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to transmit to you for your inform-
ation with reference to your letter of the 8th instant, copy of a telegram showing the

8 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

amendments in the proposed agreement with the Eastern Extension Telegraph Com"
panv submitted by the Postmasters General of New .South Wales and Victoria.

This department has no spare copy of the agreement between the Eastern Exten-
sion Telegraph Company and the Governments of South Australia, We.stern Australia
and Tasmania, which forms the basis of the proposed arrangement, but I am to suggest
that 3'ou may be able to procure a copy from the Agent General for one of those
Colonies.

• H. BERTRAM COX.

AMENDMENTS SUBMITTED BX THE POSTMASTERS OF SEW SOVTH WALES AND VICTORIA.

1. Australasian traffic must be defined in the recital as follows : —

' Telegraphic messages to and from the terminal stations in Australasia.'

2. Clause 8 t)f the Adelaide agreement to read : — ' After any reduction in the rates
for Australasian traffic and in the terminals shall have been made under clauses 5 and
7 hereof, the said rates and terminals shall not again be raised ; but if the said rates and
terminals are reduced by the Eastern Extension Company, or Cis-Indian Administration,
of its own motion below the minimum in clause 5, the said company, or administration,
may at its pleasure again raise them, provided they shall not exceed the said minimum."

3. Clause 16 of the Adelaide agreement to stand as agreed between Messrs. Crick
and Warren.

4. Clause 19 of the Adelaide agreement. Company must pay parliamentary and
municipal taxation, except on cable goods, throuifh customs, but mav add sums so paid
to £330.000.

5. Arbitration clause, as in Mr. Crick's draft, must be inserted.

6. Purchase clause, to be read in conjunction with foregoing, must also be inserted.

7. Agreements embodying the above amendments to be submitted for approval of
Parliaments of New South Wales and Victoria.

W. J. CRICK,
W. A. WATT,

Postmasters-General.

New South Wales and Victoria.

NOTES.

Claxse 16. — Mr. Crick's Draft.

' The Extension Company .shall, on and after the ojiening for traffic of the Pacific cable, or any other
competing companies, or any of them, be entitled to open local offices and to collect direct from and to
deliver direct to the public in the cities of Perth, Adelaide, ilelbourne, Sydney and Hobart, any telegrams
forming part of the Australasian traffic, and shall pay to the contracting colonies the terminal rates
specified in the schedule in respect of all such messages so collected or delivered, i>rovided that in the
meantime no such right shall be granted to any other cable company before being granted to the Extension
Company, and formal notice of not less than six months shall be given to the Extension Company to enable
them to prepare for opening their offices simultaneously with the competing cable.'

Arhitration Clause. — Mr. Crick's Draft.

23. ' In the event of there being any breach on the part of the company of this agreement, or of any
covenant, matter or thing herein contained, it shall be lawful for the contracting colonies jointly by
instrument in writing to notify the said company of such breach of this agreement and of its termination,
and the company shall not be entitled to any compensation in respect of any such termination, provided
that in case within seven days after service on the company of a notice determining this agreement the
company gives notice in writing that they dispute the sufficiency of such breach to justify the detiermi-
nation of this agreement, such disput'^ shall be referred to arbitration, one arbiti-ator to be apixjinted by
the contracting colonies jointly (in the event of any disagreement the arbitrator ior the said colonies to
be selected by the majority) and the other by the company, the two arbitrators to appoint an umpu'e if
any disagreement arise, and in case of such submission to arbitration this agreement shall, notwithstand-
ing such notice of determination, continue in force unless and until an iiward shall be made to the effect
tliat such breach was sufficient to justify the giving of such notice of determination as aforesaid.'

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL K!ONGERN 9

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

Ottawa, June 19, 1900.
Dominion,
London.

Government against proposed concessions Eastern Company. Pre-emptive right
does not remove objection. Government long .since communicated objection to Austra-
lian Colonies. Relies on good faith all parties to Pacific scheme, that without common
consent no partner will sanction material alteration of conditions existing when partner-
ship formed. Government not consulted by Imi)ei-ial authorities regarding their render
ing proposed concessions to Eastern Company practicable by grant of landing privileges
between Africa-Australia, and assumes that at least until our views are asked and ascer-
tained no such pri\'ile£ce will be granted.

LAURIER.

{Copy.)

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W.,

June 22, 1900.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,
Ottawa.

I beg to refer to my letter of the 1st instant, respecting the Pacific cable, and have
to acknowledge the following telegram from you dated the 19th instant : —

' Government against proposed concessions Eastern Company. Pre-emptive right
does not remove objection. Government long since communicated objection to Austra-
lian Colonies. Relies on good faith all parties to Pacific scheme, that without common
consent no partner will sanction material alteration of conditions existing when partner-
sliij) formed. Government not consulted bv Imperial authorities regarding their render-
ing proposed concessions to Eastern Company practicable by grant of landing pri\-ilege
between Africa-Australia, and assumes at least until (lur views are asked and ascer-
taided no such privilege will be granted.'

I took an opportunity of speaking to Mr. Chamberlain vesterdav, and represented
to him as strongly as I could the views of the L)ominion Government.

Subsequently I wrote to him formally on the subject at his request, and a copy of
my letter is inclosed herewith.

Mr. Chamberlain seemed very favourably disposed in the matter. I believe he will
do all that is possible to ensure the speedy construction of the Pacific cable, and to pre-
vent anything being done in connection with the South African and Australian cable,
which will prejudice the important work across the Pacific which has been under con-
sideration so long.

I understood from Mr. Chamberlain that the tenders for the Pacific cable will be
invited very .shortly, the necessary preliminaries having been arranged with the Treasury.

STRATHCONA.

June 22, 1900.
The Under-Secretary of State,
Colonial Otfice.

I beg to refer to your letter of the 26th ultimo and the copy of a telegram showing
the amendments in tlie proposed agreement with the Eastern Extension Telegraph
Ciimpany submitted by the Postmasters General of New South Wales and Victoria.

You are already aware of the objections of the Government of the Dominion to the
agreement \\ ith the Colonies of South Australia, West Australia and Tasmania, which
forms the basis of the proposed arrangement, and I believe that the views of Canada in
this matter are shared by the Colonies of Queensland and Xew Zealand.

I have submitted to the Dominion Government the proposed amendments to the
agreement which have been suggested by the Postmasters General of New South Wales

10 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

and Victoria, and I now quote, as desired by Mr. Chamberlain, to whom I read it
yesterday, a telegram received on the 20th inst. from Sir Wilfrid Laurier on the
subject ;

' Govermnent against proposed concessions Eastern Conipanv. Pre-emptive right
does not remove objection. Government long since communicated objection to
Australian Colonies. Relies on good faith all parties to Pacific scheme, that without
common consent no partner will sanction material alteration of conditions existing when
partnership formed. Government not consulted by Imperial authorities regarding
their rendering proposed concessions to Eastern Compianv practicable bv grant of land-
ing privilege between Africa-Australia, and assumes that at least until our Wews are
asked and ascertained no such pri\'ilege will be granted.'

I venture to hope that the ^-iews of the Government of Canada may be communi-
cated to the Governments of Victoria and >rew South Wales, and that the representa-
tions I Have had the honour to make will receive the suppoi't of Her Majesty's Govern-
ment, which is a partner in the scheme for the construction of the Pacific cable. I am
sure it will cause great disappointment in the Dominion if any steps are taken either by
Victoria or New South Wales, and if anything is sanctioned bv Her Majesty's Govern-
ment which will in any way tend to prejudice the successful carrying out of that work.

Permit me also to take the opportunity of writing to draw the attention of the
Secretary of State to the concluding portion of Sir Wilfrid Laurier's message.

STRATHCONA.

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.W., July 13, 1900.

The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Ottawa.

In continuation of my letter of the 22nd ulto., regarding the Pacific Cable, I beg to
transmit to you herewith, for your information, a copy of a communication dated the
-tth instant, which has reached me from the Colonial Office in reply to the letter I
addressed to that department on the 22nd ulto., in which I quoted the text of your
cablegram to me of the 19th idem. I also inclose a copy of a further letter I have sent
to the Colonial Office on the subject.

You will observe that Mr. Chamberlain has repeated, in part, your cablegram to
the Governors of Mew South Wales and Victoria, and that an explanation is given of
the understanding of Her i\Iajesty's Government as to the objections of the Dominion
Government in connection with the establishment of direct cable communication between
South Africa and Western and South Australia.

I also forward a cutting from to-day's Times giving a report of a {|uestion asked
in the House of Commons last evening as to the Pacific cable, and Jlr. Chamberlain's
re2>l\' thereto.

An advertisement, of wliich I forward a copy herewith, has appeared in the Times
to-day, inviting tenders for the manufacture and laying of the Pacific cable and I
therefore cabled you as follows : —

' Advertisement appears Times to-day inviting tenders for manufacture lajing
Pacific cable on basis three distinct contracts. Forms contract specification and tender
to be obtained on and after seventeenth instant. Last day for reception tenders four-
teenth proximo.'

STRATHCONA.

Colonial Office,

Downing Street, July 4, 1900.
High Commissioner for Canada.

I am directed bv Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to acknowledge the receipt of your
letter of the 22nd ulto., in which you communicated the text of a telegram received by

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 11

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

you from Sir Wilfrid Laurier on the subject of the proposed ajj;reemeiit between the
Governments of New South Wales and Victoria and the Eastern Extension Telegraph
Company.

2. Sir Wilfrid Laurier "s telegram, with the exception of the last sentence, has been
repeated to the Governors of New South Wales and Victoria.

.S. In regard to the last sentence of Sir W. Laurier's telegram, I am to state that
Her Majesty's Government were not aware that the Dominion Govermnent entertained
any objection to the establishment of direct cable communication between South Africa
and Eastern and South Austi'alia, but understood that their objections were directed
against the concessions which the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company demanded
fi'om New South Wales and Vict(-)ria as part of the considaration for laving such a
direct cable. As the company have agreed with Western and South Australia to lay
the cable without ha\ing obtained the desired privilege in New South Wales and
Victoria, the matter ceased to have any relation to the Pacific cable scheme, and Her
Majesty's Government did not see any reason for i-equesting the Governments of
Mauritius and the Straits Settlements to refuse permission to land the cable, the only
ground of objection to which, so far as they were aware, was the concession demanded
from New South Wales and Victoria as part of the consideration for laying it, and the
Eastern Extension Telegraph Companies have been informed accordingly.

H. BERTRAM COX.

Office of the High Commissioner for Canada,

17 Victoria St., London, S.W., July 12, 1900.

The Under-Secretary of State,

Colonial Office, S.W.

I beg to acknowledge your letter of the'-tth instant on the subject of the proposed
cable between South Africa and Australia and its bearing on the Pacific cable question.

I agree with what i.s stated in the concluding pai-agraph of your letter, to the extent
that the Canadian Government have no objection per ,«; to the consti-uction of the cable,
but they are, and have always been, sti'ongly of opinion that nothing should be done in
c<innection with the matter likely to pi'ejudice the commercial success or militate in any
way against the interests of tiie Pacific cable.

This, in my judgment, serves to explain the concluding portion of Sir Wilfrid
Laurier's telegram of the 19tli ultimo. As the contrcjl of the landing places of the Cape
and Australia cable is with Her Majesty's Government, it was considered by Canada
that this power would be used for the purpose of preventing any agreement likely to be
detrimental to the Pacific cable, the mother country being a partner in the scheme, with
Canada and certain of the Australian colonies, for the construction and operation of this
Liiperial work.

STRATHCONA.

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W., July 24, 1900.
The Rt. Hont)urable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Ottawa.

In continuation of my letter. No. 550, of the 1 3th instant, regarding the Pacific
cable, I now beg to send you for your informati(jn a copy of the forms of contract, speci-
fication and tenders, which I have obtained frcjm Messrs. Clark, Forde it Taylor.

As you will have gathered fi-om my cablegram of the 13th instant, the last day for
the reception of tenders is the 14th proximo.

STRATHCONA.

12 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EdWJVRD VII., A. 1902

FOURTH CONGRESS OF CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE OF THE EMPIRE,

JUNE, 1900.

BoTOLPH House, Eastcheap, London, E.C.

July 31, 1900.
The Rt. Hon. the Earl of Minto, G.C.M.G.,
Governor General of Canada,
Ottawa.

I have the honour to transmit the appended resolution, unanimously passed by the
above Congress, on the subject of Imperial telegraphic communication.

In view of the contemplated action of Her Majesty's Government in regard to the
Pacific cable it would appeal- to be unnecessary to refer to the great importance of this
matter and the nece.ssity which exists for commercial reasons and for purposes of defence
that the ends of this vast empire should be drawn more closely together by a perfect
.system of cable communication.

In the humble opinion of the Congress it is of the most supreme importance that
instant communication should be available to all parts of the empire, whether for com-
mercial purposes generally, for military purposes or for the convenience of the individual
trader, and I tlierefore transmit the resolution, respectfully urging that the matter may
receive that consideration at the hands of Her Majesty's Government whicli its importance
would appear to demand.

ALBERT G. SANDEMAN,

President.

The resolution i-eferred to is as follows : —

' That this Congress desires to call special attention to the necessity of completing
the iill-British Pacific cable, not onlv on commercial grounds, but in the interests of
the Imperial security.

' That this Congress reconnnends that support should be given to the action which
the Imperial Telegraph Connnittee of the Htiuse of Commons is taking with the view of
placing the important matter of electrical communication between the United Kingdom,
India and the British Colonies and dependencies on a footing commensurate with the
present conditions of Inter-Imperial and Colonial relations.

' That copies of this resolution be addressed to the Prime Minister, the First Lord
of the Treasury, the Chancellor of the Exche([uer, the Secretary of State for India, the
Secretary of State for the Colonies, the • Postmaster General, and the Governors of the
se/f-f/oi-ennng Colonies, urging that every reast)nable opportunity may be given in Parlia-
ment for discussion of the position of the Telegraph Companies in relation to the Govern-
ment, with a view to an immediate and satisfactorv solution being found for the very
.serious grievances under which the commercial and industrial communities of the em-
pire have been labouring for a long time past.

'That in view of the great object to be attained, this Congress is sti'ongly of the
opinion that it would be wise policy to make full provision for ultimate State ownership
in any arrangements hereafter made to lay cables, by private companies, between British
possessions in any part of the globe.

' That this Congress recommends that the principle of State ownership be especially
provided for in the cable proposed to be laid bv a private company between South Africa
and Australia.

' That this Congress urges upon Her ]NIajestv's Go\ernment the importance of insti-
tuting a searching investigation by the departmental committee promised by the
Government into both the shortcomings and the merits of a private system of cables,
and consequently into the desirabilitv or otherwise of adopting such a course or policy
in the future as would lead to the ultimate expropriation of private cables, and the es-
tablishment of State-o\\ned cables throughout the empire, and to report thereon at the
earliest oi>port unity, such report to be accessible to the public '

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 13

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

Extract _/(■(;(« a Meport of tin; Committee of tin- Honourable the Privy Cminril, approved
by His ExceUency on October 16, 1900.

On a memorandum dated October 15, 1900, from the Postmaster General, stating
that the Right Honourable Lord Strathcona, Higli Commissioner for Canada at London, '
England, one of the representatives of Canada on the Pacific Cable Commission, has
submitted for the consideration of the Dominion Government the tenders received by
the Pacific Cable Commission for the construction of the Pacific cable.

That Lord Strathcona has submitted to the Postmaster General a letter received
from C. T. Davis, Secretary of the Pacific Cable Committee in the words following : —

[Immediate and confidential.)

Colonial Office, September 29, 1900.
High Commissioner for Canada.

I am directed by the Pacific Cable Committee to forward to you a statement sum-
marizing the tenders which they have received for the manufacture and laying of the
proposed cable.

I am requested that you will comnuuiicate the substance of this statement by tele-
graph to your Government in strict confidence, and ask them to inform you as soon as
possible whether they are prepared to proceed with the scheme on the basis of the
whole work being gi\en to the Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company.

On this basis the total cost of establishing the cable would be £1,795,000, plus
§180,000, the estimated amount of supplementary and miscellaneous expenditure, i.e.
£1,975,000.

C. T. DAVIS.

The Minister states that the summary of tenders referred to in said letter is as
follows : —

Statement as to tenders received by the Pacific Cable Committee.

(a) Henleys offered to complete in eleven, months for £375,000 contract 3 in appen-
dix of committee's report. This offer expired August 31 and was subject to reservations
to the market price of I'aw gutta percha.

(b) Silvertown Company offer to use their best endeavours to complete in 18
months contract 1 for £1,153,000, or contracts 2 and 3 separately or combined for
£415,000 and £-104,000 respectively, but will not undertake whole work. This offer
expires March 31, 1901.

(c) Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company offer to complete contract 1
for £1,067,602, contract 2 for £388,358, and contract 3 for £339,040, total £1,795,000.
They undertake to complete any one contract by July 31, 1902, but if whole work is
given them and they are allowed to start with contract 3 and end with contract 1, they
will complete by end of 1902 and also carry out without further charge the sounding
and survey operations specified in contract 4 (estimated by engineers to cost £24,000).
This ofier'expires October 31, 1900.

(d) Siemens offer to complete contract 1 for £1,235,000 in 12 months, contract 2
for £512,200 in 10 months, contract 3 for £461,500 in 10 months, total £2,208,700,
but state that the time required to complete the \vhoIe v'ork, or two (if its parts, woukl
be less than the sum of the several times. This ofi'er expires October 14, 1900.

The Minister recommends that he be authorized to inform Lord Strathcona that
the Dominion Government approves of the acceptance of the tender of the Telegraph
Construction and Maintenance Company, and to request him to so notify the Pacific
Cable Committee.

The Committee advise that authority be granted as recommended.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Pri%'y Council.

14 CORItESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Downing Street, October 17, 1900.

{Mr. Chamberlaiti to Lord Minto.)

In confirmation of my telegram of the 13th instant, I liave the lionour to ti'ansmit
to you, to be laid before yiiur ^Ministers, a copy of a letter from the Pacific Cable Com-
mittee, reporting on the tenders which they have received for the construction and' lay-
ing of the proposed Pacific cable.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

October IS, 1900.

The Secretary of State,

Colonial OfBce.

On the receipt of your letter of July 2, the Pacific Cable Committee instructed
Messrs. Clark, Forde and Taylor, their consulting engineers, to call for tenders for the
construction and laving of the proposed Pacific cable on the basis of the specifications
and draft contracts submitted in the committee's rejiort of April 21 last.

2. Copies of the forms of specifications and contract issued by Messrs. Clark,
Forde and. Taylor, in calling for tenders, are inclosed.

3. Copies oi the tenders received together with the reports of Messrs. Clark, Forde
and Taylor, thereon, are also inclosed.

4. The following is an analysis of the tenders : —

(a) W. T. Henley's Telegraph Works Company offered to complete contract 3 in
eleven months for £375,000. This oSer expired August 31, and was subject to a
reservation as to the market price of gutta perclia.

(h) The Silver-town Company offer ' to use their best endeavours ' to complete in
eighteen months, contract 1, for £1,1-53,000, or contracts "2 and 3, separately or com-
bined, for £-115,000 and £-104,000 respectively, but they cannot undertake the
whole work. This ofier holds good until March 31, 1901.

(c) The Telegi'aph Construction and Maintenance Company offered to complete
Contract 1 for £1,067,602, contract 2 for £388,358, and contract's for £339,040, total,
£1,795,000, and the)' undertook to complete any one contract by July 31, 1902.

(d) Siemens Brothers it Company offer to complete contract 1 for £1,235,000 in
twelve months, contract 2 for £512,200 in ten months, contract 3 for £461,500 in
ten months, total, £2,208,700. They state, however, that the time required to complete
the whole work, or two of its parts, would be less than the sum of the times quoted for
each part separately. This offer holds good until the 14th instant.

5. The connnittee did not regard any of these tenders as acceptable, but they were
of opiniim that the offer of the Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company,
whose tender was the lowest for each of the three parts, afforded a basis for negotia-
tion.

6. The conqiany were accordingly asked to revi,?e their tender on the basis of all
three contracts being j)laced with them. In leply, they undertook, if allowed to com-
mence with. the Fiji-Norfolk Island and Norfolk Island-Australia and New Zealand
sections and to finish with the Vancouver section, to complete the whole line by Dec-
ember 31, 1902 ; but the onlj- abatement they were prepared to make from their original
tender of £1,795,000, was an offer to carry out without charge the sounding and survey
opierations specified on contract 4 and estimated by the engineers to cost £24,000.

7. The connnittee hatl hoped to obtain from the company a more substantial
reduction in consideration of the who'e work being given to them, but the negotiations
for a further reduction failed.

8. The committee are, however, satisfied that the ofter of the company, as it stands,
is the best obtainable and they unanimously recommend that the whole work should be
placed with them.

9. The engineers' estimate for contracts 1, 2, 3 and 4 was £1,491,659. In explana-
tion of the discrepancy between this sum and the amount of the company's tender, the

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 15

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

(.•(immittee desire to in\ite attention to the l-eniarks on the state of tlie gutta percha market
made in Messrs. Clark, Forde and Tayl(.>r's report of August 17, and in Messr.s. Hen-
leys letter to Messrs. Clark, Forde and Taylor of August 13.

10. If the company's tender is accepted, the total cost of establishing the cable,
allowing for mi.seellaneous and supplementary expenditure e.stimated at £180,000, will
be £1,975,000.

11. The adjustment of the points raised by the company in the letter accompany-
ing their original tender does not appear to the committee to be a matter of any
difficulty.

12. The revised offer of the compan}- remains open until the 31st instant, and is
subject to a proviso that the contract shall be signed not later than December 31, 1900.

13. To save time the committee have emltodied a summary of the tenders received
and their recommendation in the memorandum submitted herewith. They will be glad
if it can be communicated liy telegraph to the Colonial Governments interested with as
little delav as possible.

C. T. DAVIS,

Secretary.

{Mevwrandum of Pacific Cable Committee.)

Following tenders liave been received by Pacific Cable Committee : —

(a) Henley's offered to complete in 11 month.s for 375,000 pounds, contract 3 in
appendix of committee's report. This offer expired August 31, and was subject to
reservation as to the market price of gutta percha.

(h) Silvertown Company (jffer to use their best endeavours to complete in IS niopths
contract 1 for £1,153,000, or contracts i and 3, separately or combined for £415,000
and £404,000 respectively, but will not undertake whole work. This offer expires March
31, 1901.

(c) Telegraph Construction and j\Iaintenance Company offer to complete contract
1 for £1,067,602. contract 2 for £388,358 and contract 3 for £339,040, total £1,796,000.
They undertake to complete any one contract by July 31, 1902, but if whole work is
given them, and they are allowed to stai-t with contract 3 and end with contract 1,
they will complete b_Y December 31, 1902, and also carry out without further charge
the sounding and surve\ operations specified in contract 4 (estimated by engineers to
cost £24,000). This offer expires October 31, 1900.

(d) Siemens offer to complete contract 1 for £1,235,000 in 1 2 months, contract 2 for
£412,000 in 10 months, contract 3 for £416,500 in 10 months, total, £2,208,700, but
state that the time required to complete the whole work, or two of its parts, would be
less than the sum of the several times. This offer expires October 14, 1900.

Committee unanimously reconunend that whole work should be given to Telegraph
Construction and Maintenance Company. The engineer's estimate for contracts 1, 2
and 3 was £1,467,659 ; discrepancy is due entirely to the advance in the price of gutta
jiercha.

Negotiations with company for further reduction in tender have failejl, and
committee consider that the company's offer as it stands is the best obtainable.

If adopted, total cost of establishing cable will be £1,795,000 plus 180,000
the estimated amount of miscellaneous and supplementary expenditui-e, i.e., £1,975,000.

Telegraph as soon as posssble views of your ^Ministers as to acceptance of tender.

Committee regret delay,' but negotiations with Telegraph Construction and
iVIaintenance Company have only just been concluded.

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.'SV., October 20, 1900.

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, — On July 29 la.st I had the pleasure to send j'ou copies of
the forms of specification and contract issued by Messrs. Clark, Forde tt Taylor, the

16 CORRESPONDENCE OV SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

consulting engineers to the committee, in callinj; for tenders for the proposed Pacific
cable.

I no^v think it well, in order to complete to date the correspondence which I have
had with vou on this subject, to write you briefly as to what has taken place since the
date for the reception of tenders, i.e., August 14 last.

In the first place four tenders were received, three for the whole work and one for
a portion onlv. These were placed before the consulting engineers, who reported upon
them, and they were then taken into consideration by the committee.

The committee did not at first regard any of these tenders as acceptable, but they
were of the opinion that the offer of the Telegraph Construction and Maintenance
Company, whose tender was the lowest, afforded a basis of negotiation.

The consulting engineers were accordingly instructed to communicate with the
Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company, with a view to ascertaining whether
thev were prepared to revise their tender. Correspondence thereupon ensued between
the" engineers and the company, with the result that the latter undertook to complete
the whole line bv December 31, 1902, but the only modification they were prepared to
make in their original tender was an offer to carry out, without charge, the necessary
sounding and survey operations, estimated by our engineers to cost £24,000.

The matter was then finally considered by the committee, who unanimously decided
to recommend that the whole of the work should be given to the Telegraph Construction
and Maintenance Company.

On the 1.3th instant a synopsis of the tenders received, and the recommendation
adopted bv the committee, was cabled to the Governor General by the Colonial Office,
in order ttiat the views of the Canadian Government as to the acceptance of the tender
might be signified.

On the 16th inst. I received your authority to inform the Secretary of State for the
Colonies that the Dominion Government approved of the acceptance of the Telegraph
Construction and Maintenance Company's offer, and this approval was accordingly
communicated bv me to the Colonial Office.

I have since learned from that department that New Zealand has also notified its
agreement with the committee's recommendation, and I have no doubt that this course
will be followed in due time by the other governments concerned.

.In the meantime, I do not think it necessary to send you copies of the various
papers and conespondence arising out of the action which I have outlined above, as I
am informed that thev are being communicated to the Governor General by the Colonial
Office, and they will no doubt reach you in due course.

STRATHCONA.

1157 Dorchester Street,

Montreal, October 28, 1900.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Ottawa, Ont.

In continuance of advice received regarding the proposed Pacific cable, I beg to
say that in addition to the information communicated in my letter Ui you of the 28th
'instant I have just been informed by cable as follows : —

' Pacific cable. Victoria assents. New South Wales assents on understanding
Parliament approves. Bill already passed Lower House. Colonial Office asking company
extending the tenders another month to meet this contingency, and permit submission
Cabinet here, which necessary before contract can be signed.'

From .this it would appear that there is every prospect that before the close of the
pi-esent year the tenders for the construction of the cable will have been given out, with
the full understanding that it will be completed by December 31, 1902.

STRATHCONA.

COBRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 17

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

Ottawa, Novembe)' 15, IDOO.
Lord Aberdeen,

Haddo, Scotland.

The Canadian and Austfalian representatives on the Pacific Cable Board having
been successful in maturing the i)rojeot ready for contractors, the Government do not
suppose you would care to continue any longer a member of the Board, which will have
now to deal only with business details, involving the presence of its members in London,
which might be inconvenient to you. The Government, therefore, prop<:)se. asking Mr.
Lang, Bank of Montreal, to go on permanent Board. I understand that suggestion has
your approval.

LAURIER.
Lord Minlo to Mr. Chamherlain.

My Ministers are extremely anxious that the Pacific cable contract should be signed
without further delay. They think the present members of the Board have ample
authority to act, and Canada will confirm such action by its representatives on the Board
should it be considered necessary. They also suggest Lord Strathcona and Alexander
Lang, Manager Bank of Montreal, as members of permanent Board.

Mr. Chiunberlain to Lord Miuto.

London, November 27, 1900.

For convenience of drafting and for other reasons it is proposed that Pacific cable
contract shall be signed on behalf of Her iMajestj''s Government by the Lords Connnis-
sioners of the Treasury, and on belialf of Canada and the Australasian Colonies by the
High Commissioner and tlie four Agents-General. I request the High Commissioner
may be instructed accordingly.

CHAMBERLAIN.

Ottawa, November .30, 1900.
Lord Strathcona,

17 Victoria St., London, Eng.

Colonial Office desires that for convenience of drafting and other reasons Pacific
cable contract should be signed on behalf of Canada by the High Commissioner.
Canadian Government has no objections and desires you to act accordingly.

LAURIER.

From Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Miiito.

London, January 5, 1901.
Pacific cable contract executed December 31.

CHAMBERLAIN.

From Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Minto.

Downing Street,

January 17, 1901.
Governor General,

The Right Honourable

The Earl of Minto, G.C.M.G.,
ifec, ifec, &c.

With reference to previous correspondence on the subject of the contract for the
construction of the Pacific cable, I have the honour to transmit to you, for the infor-
mation of your Ministers, copies of the contract as completed on December 31 last.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

77—2

18 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W.,

January 26, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.O.,
Ottawa.

I beg to confii-m my telegram to you of the 24th instant, as follows : —

' In reply to mj' communications protesting against proposed arrangements. Admin-
istrator New South Wales telegraphs Colonial Office following : — Referring your tele-
gram, January 8, my Ministers advise Pacific Cable Board no' power deal any matter
affecting Post Office except Pacific cable. Our Post Office probably pass to Federal
Government and next month when cable rates would necessarily be uniform. At pre-
sent this State pays -ts. lid. per word, while adjoining State pays 3s. 6d. Paving way
for uniformity federal service, my Government entered into agreement Eastern Extension
Company for uniformity rate from February 1. Ends. Agreement signed sixteenth
instant. Victorian Government advises Agent-General this result, conference between
Postmasters General New South Wales and Victoria at which mutually agreed grant
Eastern Extension Company permission open offices for direct transaction business from
date completion Pacific cable but getting reduction from 1st prox. Postmaster General
Victoria, however agreed under misapprehension exact position matter and his Govern-
ment were determined do nothing involving breach terms on which contributing parties
entered into Pacific cable contract, but New South Wales having obtained advantages
they are desirous occupy as good position as other States if other parties interested do
not consider breaking faith. Large number their people consider proposed agreement
justifiable and Mr. Chamberlain is being asked give consent. Special meeting Pacific
Cable Board being called consider matter. Please cable your views. Personally not
disposed accede request Victoria.'

The following reply from you reached me this morning.

' Canadian Government entered into Pacific cable partnership in full confidence no
partner government would alter conditions then existing to prejudice of scheme. Con-
sider concessions asked for Eastern Extension would, if granted, materially alter con-
ditions and seriously prejudice scheme. Canada certainh' will be unwilling to continue
its adherence if co-partners without mutual consent change basis on which partnership
formed. Last Saturday received cable from Premier Victoria, asking views and cabled
reply to above effect.'

' I take the opportunity of writing to transmit a copy of the telegram from the Gov-
ernment of Victoria to its Agent-General, Sir Andrew Clarke, on the subject ; also fur-
ther letters, with their inclosures, which have reached me from Colonial Office on the
subject.

I append also, for the information of the Government, a copy of the communication
I have to-day adch'essed to Mr. Chamberlain on the subject.

STRATHCONA.

January 26, 1901.
The Under-Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.

I beg to acknowledge your letter of the 2.3rd instant, respecting the reported
acceptance by the Government of New South Wales of the proposals of the Eastern
Extension Telegraph Company, and transmitting copy of a telegram received from the
officer administering the Government of that colony, on the subject.

Your further letter of the 25th instant, with a copy of Mr. Chamberlain's telegram
to the Government of New South Wales dated Sth inst-ant, has also reached me.

I had no doubt that the action of the New South Wales Government would cause
grave disappointment among the other partners in the Pacific Cable scheme. After all
the correspondence that has passed, it was never deemed possible that any one of the
partners in the construction of the Pacific cable would enter into any agreement with a

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 19

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

competing line without the consent and approval of Her Majesty's Government and
the other Colonies associated with them.

Sir Andrew Clarke, a few days ago, handed to me a copy of a telegram received by
him from the Government of Victoria, stating that although they had agreed with the
New South Wales Government recently to sign the agreement with the Eastern Ex-
tension Company, their action in the mattei- was the result of a misapprehension, and
that they did not wish to proceed further or to do anything that could possibly be
regarded as a breach of the terms on which the contributing parties had entered into
the contract for the Pacific cable. At the same time, the telegram gave expression to
the desire of the Government, should no objection be raised, to participate in the tem-
porary advantages which the people of New South Wales would secure by the action of
its Government.

I at once took the opportunity of cabling to Canada both the telegram i-eceived by
Mr. Chamberlain from New South Wales, and the effect of the telegram addressed to
Sir Andrew Clarke by the Government of Victoria.

I have now to transmit, for the information of Mr. Chamberlain, the following
telegram which reached me to-day from Sir Wilfrid Laurier : —

' Canadian Government entered into Pacific cable partnership in full confidence no
partner government would alter conditions then existing to prejudice of scheme. Con-
sider concessions asked for Eastern Extension would, if granted, materially alter
conditions and seriously prejudice scheme. Canada certainly will be unwilling to con-
tinue its adherence if co-partners without mutual consent change basis on which
partnership formed. Last Saturday received cable from Premier Victoria asking \-iews
and cabled reply to above effect.'

I venture to believe that His Majesty's Government will use their best endeavours
with New South Wales, and with the Government of Victoria, to bring about a
reconsideration of the matter, in the hope that it may still be possible to avoid the
consequences of the action of the former Government, which are certainly calculated to
seriously prejudice both the construction and successful operation of the Pacific cable.

STRATHCONA.

Copy of telegram received on January 21, 1901.

Transmit following telegram to Secretary of State for Colonies : —
Pacific cable. Western Australia, South Australia, Tasmania, some months ago
agreed with Eastern Extension Company to grant permission to at once open offices for
direct transaction of business, and have obtained considerable reduction charges. Post-
master General New South Wales, Victoria, had conference and agreed in writing to
give similar privileges from the date of completion of Pacific cable, but getting reduction
at once, namely, from February 1. Victoria Postmaster General being under misappre-
hensi<;in of exact position of matter. New South Wales has instructed Agent-General
and he has signed agreement, but on matter being reported to Victorian Cabinet, they
were determined not to do anything that would be breach of terms on which contribut-
ing parties enter into contract. However, New South Wales having obtained the
advantages, we are naturally desirous our people sh(juld be in position as good as other
States, it other parties interested do not consider that we are breaking faith with
them. I would be glad to know therefore, under tlie circumstances as they now exist,
you will object to Victoria to enter into agreement proposed. Matter of allowing East-
ern Extension Company to have separate offices was not thought of or taken into
consideration at the time of negotiation, and large numbers of our people consider that
proposed agreement is justifiable, and therefore I should be glad if you can give your
consent. Telegraph reply.

Colonial Office.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies presents his compliments to the High
Commissioner for Canada and requests that he will be good enough to add the accom-

20 CORRESPONDENCE OX SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

panying copy of a telegram to the Otiicer administering the Government of New .South
Wales to the enclosure in the letter from the Colonial Office January 23 respecting the
proposals of the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

January 25, 1901.

(Telegram.)

Mr. Chamberlain to the Officer administering the Government of New South
Wales. (Sent 5 p.m. January 8, 1901.)

Referring to my telegram of July 2, Canadian Government are informed that New
South Wales will probably accept proposals of Eastern Telegraph Company. Presume
that this is not correct, and that matter will be kept open till Pacific Cable Board is in
position to deal with it.

Colonial Office,
Dowsing Street, S.W., January 23, 1901.
The High Commissioner for Canada.

With reference to the letter from this department of the 1 ith instant, respecting
the reported acceptance by the Government of New South Wales of the proposals of the
Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, I am directed by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to
transmit to you, ior your information and for the information of the Canadian Govern-
ment, copy of a telegram which has now been received from the Officer administering the
Government of New South Wales on the subject.

H. BERTRAM COX.

(Telegram.)

The Officer administering the Government of New South Wales to Mr. Chamber-
lain. (Received Colonial Office, 3.30 a.m., January 17, 1901.)

Referring to your telegram of January 8, my Ministers advise that Pacific Cable
Board has no power to deal with any matter affecting post office except Pacific cable.
Our post office will probably pass to Federal Government at the end of next month, when
cable rates would necessarily be uniform. At present this State pays 4s. lid. per word,
while the adjoining State pays 3s. 6d. Pacing the way for uniformity in the federal
ser\-ice, my Government has entered into agreement with Eastern Extension Company
for uniformity of rate from February 1.

17 Victoria Street, London, S.\\'., January 29, 1901.
The Right Honoui-able

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.

In continuation of my letter of the 26th instant respecting the acceptance by the
Government of New South Wales of the proposals of the Eastern Extension Telegraph
Company, I now beg to transmit to you, for your information, a copy of a further letter
which has reached me from the Colonial Office covering a copy of a correspondence with
the Agent-General for Victoria in regard to the proposals made to his Government by
the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company for the conclusion of an agreement similar to
that recently entered into bj- the Government of New South Wales; together with a
copy of a letter from the Agent^General for New Zealand on the subject of the latter
agreement.

I trust that the \iews which ha\e been expressed against the acceptance of the pro-
posals will prevent any furthei- action being taken before the matter can be considered
at the meeting of the Pacific Cable Board which is shortly to take place.

It will be within your knowledge that the contract for the construction and laying
down of the Pacific cable was signed on behalf of the contracting parties on the 31st
ultimo. I had the honour, in accordance with the authority which you were so good as
to convey to me by cable on the 30th November last, of signing on behalf of the Govern-

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 21

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

ment of the Dominion of Canada. I do not, however, send you a copy of the contract,
as I am informed by the Colonial Office that copies have been forwarded direct to the
colonial governments who are parties to the contract, and I do not doubt that ere this
vou have had an op])ortunity of seeing it.

STRATHCONA.

The High Commissioner for Canada.

Downing Street, January 26, 1901.

With reference to the letter from this department of the 23rd inst., I am directed
by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to transmit to you, for your information, copy of a
correspondence with the Agent General for Victoria with reference to the proposals
made to his Government by the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, for the con-
clusion of an agreement similar to that I'ecently entered into by the Government of New
South Wales.

2. I am also to inclose copy of the letter from the Agent-General for New Zealand
referred to in this correspondence.

H. BERTRAM COX.

Victoria Office, 15 Victoria Street,
'' Westminster, S.W., January 22, 1901.

The Under-Secretarv of State,

■ Colonial Office, S.W.

I have the honour to inform you that I have received the following telegram from
my Government : —

' Transmit following telegram to Secretary of State for the Colonies : — Pacific
cable. Western Australia, South Australia, Tasmania, some months ago agreed with
Eastern Extension Company to grant permission to at once open offices for direct trans-
action of business, and have obtained considerable reduction charges. Postmasters
General New South Wales, Victoria, had conference and agreed in writing, to give
similar privileges from the date of completion of Pacific cable, but getting reduction at
once, namely, from 1st February. Victorian Postmaster General being under misappre-
hension of exact position of matter, New South Wales has instructed Agent-General and
he has signed agreement, but on matter being reported Victorian Cabinet, they were
determined not to do anything that would he breach of terms on which contributing
parties enter into contract. However, New South Wales having obtained the adv^aii-
tages, we are naturally desirous our people should be in position as good as other States,
if other parties interested do not consider that we are breaking faith with them. I
would be glad to know therefore, under the circumstances as they now exist, you will
object to Victoria enter into agreement pi-oposed. Matter of allowing Eastern Extension
Company to have separate offices was not thought of or taken into consideration at the
time of negotiation, and large numbers of our people consider that proposed agreement
is justifiable, and therefore I should be glad if you can give your consent. Telegraph
replv.'

ANDREW CLARKE.

(Immediate.)

The Agent General for Victoria.

Downing Street,

January 26, 1901.

I am directed by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to acknowledge the receipt of
your letter of the 22nd instant communicating the text of a telegram which you have
received from the Government of Victoria with reference to the proposal made t(j them
by the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company for the conclusion of an agreement similar
to that recently entered into by the Government of New South Wales.

22 CORBESPONVENCE OV SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCEBN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

2. Mr. Chamberlain is endeavouring to arrange for the immediate a.ssembly of the
Pacific Cable Board, in order that His Majesty's Government may have the benefit of
the ad -vice of that body, as representing all the partners in the Pacific cable, before
expressing a definite opinion on the subject.

3. A letter from the Agent-General for New Zealand, respecting the action of the
Government of New South Wales, is inclosed.

4. Copies of this correspondence have been communicated to the High Commissioner
for Canada and the Agents-General for New South Wales, Queensland and New
Zealand.

H. BERTRAM COX.

7 Westminister Chambers,
13 Victoria Street, London, S.W., January 25, 1901.

The Under-Secretary of State,

Colonial Office, S.W.

I am directed by the Agent-General to acknowledge the receipt of your letter
No. 1897-1901 of the 23rd instant, inclosing copy of a telegram which has been received
from the Officer administering the Government of New South Wales on the subject of
the agreement entered into by the government of that state with the Eastern Telegraph
Company, and, in reference thereto, to express his regret at the action taken by the
New South Wales Government.

I am to add that the Agent-General would be glad to co-operate in anj- steps which
might possibly be taken with a view to the reconsideration of the question at issue.

WALTER KENNAWAY.

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W.,

February 1, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C.,
Ottawa, Canada.

I beg to send you a copy of a letter which has reached me from Messis. Clarke,
Forde it Taylor, the consulting and advising engineers for the Pacific cable ; together
with the chai't which accompanied it.

You will observe that !Mr. R. E. Peake, one of the members of the firm, is shortly
to visit Canada in connection with the selection of the spot at which the cable is to be
landed on Vancouver Island and the position of a cable station, itc, and that it is
desirable he should be afforded certain assistance and information for the proper carry-
ing out of those objects.

I venture to commend the matter to your consideration, and shall be glad if you
will be so good as to cause it to be brought before the proper authorities in Ottawa so
that evervthing that is requisite may be ari-anged for in advance of Mr. Peake's arrival
in Canada. I am providing him with a letter of introduction to yourself.

You will notice also that some suggestions are made as to the part which it is con-
sidered desirable that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company should fill in connection
with the working of the cable.

Perhaps you will kindly cause the matter to be placed before the C.P.R. Company
with the object of eliciting their views on the suggestions that are made, and co-opera-
tion in carrying them out if they are accepted.

If you can conveniently arrange for some brief information on these several matters
to be cabled to me which I can communicate to Messrs. Clarke, Forde & Taylor, prior to
Mr. Peake's sailing, I shall be greatly obliged.

STRATHCONA.

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 23

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

4 Great Winchester Street, E.G.,

January 29, 1901.
The High Commissioner for Canada,
17 Victoria Street, S.W.

Pacifie Cable.

Referring to our interview with you of the 28th inst., we would now ask vou to
give the following matters your consideration : —

(1.) To comply with the conditions of articles 6, page 9 of the contract (as signed)
it would be convenient if an official were appointed by the Canadian Government to
accompany Mr. R. E. Peake to Vancouver, and in consultation with him to decide defi-
nitely on the place at which the cable is to be landed on Vancouver Island.

(2.) To expedite the selection of the landing place it would be of advantage to
obtain early information as to the coast near to Cape Beale, having regard to its suita-
bility as a landing place and to the facilities there for maintaining a station and for
obtaining supplies and provisions for the staff.

(3.) To avoid delay in the transfer of messages, we submit that it would be desi-
rable for the Canadian Pacific Railway to carry their telegraphic system up to the land-
ing place of the cable. It is obvious that a short length of land line worked and main-
tained bv the Go\ernment between the terminus of the Canadian Pacific Raihvay system
and that of the cable sj-stem would be likely to introduce delay and extra work in the
handling of the traffic.

We also suggest, should it be decided that the Canadian Pacific Raihvay take over
the traffic at the cable terminus, that an official be appointed to confer with Mr. Peake
as to the site of a station near the landing place on Vancouver Island.

With regard to this station it may be worthy of the consideration of the Board
that joint offices and premises should be provided for the cable and land line staff, in
which case it might avoid delay if the representative of the land line company were
empowered to acquire the necessary land by purchase or otherwise and to make a
contract for a suitable station to be erected under his supervision.

We have drawn j'our Lordship's attention to the above points as forming part of
the work of the survey to be carried out during this year. It is proposed that Mr.
Peake shall leave Vancouver for Brisbane on April -5 to join the surveying ship at the
latter place, and before his departure from this country, on or about March 1, we should be
glad to rei.'cive youi' Lordship's views on the matters referred to in this letter.

We forward herewith, as required, an admiralty chart No. 1917, on which is shown
in red circles the positions of the suggested landing places.

CLARKE, FORDE & TAYLOR.

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.W., February 1, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Ottawa.

With further reference to my letter of January 26, regarding the acceptance
by the Government of New South Wales of the prcjposals of the Eastern Extension
Telegraph Company, I now beg to transmit to you herewith, for your information, a copy
of the agreement between the New South Wales Government and the Eastern Extension
Company, signed on January 16, 1901, which has been furnished to me by the Agent-
General for that colony.

STRATHCONA.

24 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.W., Februiuy 5, 1901.
The Right Honourable

The President of the Privy Council,
Ottawa,

I have the honour to transmit to you herewith, for the information of the Govern-
ment, a copy of a letter addressed to me by the secretary of the British Empire League,
conveying the text of a resolution, on the subject of the Pacific cable, which was
unanimously adopted by the executive committee of the league at a meeting held on
the 10th ultimo.

STRATHCONA.

112 Cannon Street,

London, E.G., January IG, 1901.
The High Commissioner for Canada.

At a meeting of the executive committee of the British Empire League, held on
the 10th inst., with Sir Robert Hebert in the chair, the following lesolution was unani-
mously adopted : —

' That the executive committee of the British Empire League expresses its satisfac-
tion at the acceptance by the Imperial Government of a tender for the construction of
the Pacific cable, and congratulates the representatives of Canada, New South Wales,
Victoria, Queensland and New Zealand, as well as the members of the British Empire
League in Canada, upon the success of their efforts.'

My committee will esteem it a favour if your Lordship will communicate the same
to your government.

S. FREEMAN MURRAY,

Secretary.

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.W. February Vl, 1901.
Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.

In continuation of previous correspondence respecting the Pacific cable, I beg to
transmit to you herewith for your information, a copy of a letter which has reached
me from the Treasury covering a copy of a Treasury minute appointing the members of
the board of management of the cable.

The first meeting of the board has been called for Monday, the 25th instant, when,
among other matters, consideration will be given to the question as to what action
should be taken by the board in view of the arrangement between certain of the
Australian Colonies and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

I also inclose a copy of a letter addressed to me by the Agent-General for
New Zealand, in which you will see that his Government are entirely in accord with the
view of the Dominion Government as to the concession granted by the New South
Wales Government to the Eastern Extension Company.

Sir Horace Tozer, the Agent-General for Queensland, has also written me in a
similar sense, exjilaining that his Government have all along maintained the attitude
that nothing should be done by any of the co-partners in the Pacific c^ble contract
which would be likely to have a prejudicial effect on the success of the cable. Queens-
land, however, is not directly represented on the Pacific Cable Board, but Sir Horace
Tozer tells me that he has suggested to his Government that the Hon. W. P. Ree\es, the
Agent-General for New Zealand, should be authorized to voice the views ot Queensland
at the meeting of the board.

I will keep you fully infoi'med of what transpires from time to time.

STRATHCONA

CORRESPONDENCE ON HUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 25

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

Treasury Chambers, February 5, 1901.

Lord Strathcoxa and Mount Royal, G.C.M.G.

I am directed by the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury' to forwarfl
herewith a copy of a Treasury minute appointing j'ou and other gentlemen to tlie board
of management of the Pacific cable.

I am to add that the chairman of the board has been requested to call a meeting
of the board as soon as possible, and to notify the time and place of meeting to each
member.

E. W. HAMILTON.

The Treasury, in agreement with the Governments of Canada and the States of
New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland antl tlie Colony of New Zealand, being the
governmeiiis contributing, with His Majesty's Government, to the cost of the construc-
tion, laying and management of the Pacific cable, in respect of which a contract was
entered into \\ith the Telewraj)]! Construction and Maintenance Company, on December
31, 1900;

Hereby appoint the following persons to constitute the board of management of
the said cable, namely : —

Representing His Majesty's Government : Sir Spencer Walpole, K.C.B., (chairman) ;
G. E. y. Gleadowe, Esq., C.M.G., W. H. Mercer, Esq.

Representing the Government of Canada : Lord Strathco'na and Mount Royal,
G.C.M.G., Alexander Lang, Esq.

The Agents-General for New South Wales and Victoria, representing the Govern-
ments of New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland.

The Agent-General for New Zealand, representing the Government of New
Zealand.

The board is empowered to proWde an otfice, to appoint or employ a manager,
secretary and such otficers and persons, and to take such steps as they deem necessary
for the business of the cable.

The cliairman shall have a second or casting vote in any matter in which the votes
of the board are equally divided ; and, so long as he does not hold any office or profit
under the Crown, or under any of the above mentioned governments, he shall receive a
salary af £600 a year, to commence from February 1, 1901.

Any vacancy in the office of cliairman or of other representatives of His Majesty's
Government shall be filled b}' the Board of Treasury for the time being. Any vacancy
in the office of a representative of any of the othei- governments above mentioned, shall
be filled by the government, or governments, immediately concerned. Tliere shall be
paid to any officer or person appointed or employed by the board on the business of the
cable such fee, remuneration or salary as the board may think fit, and until Parhament
has made provision on that belialf, the said payment together with any payment made
for the purposes of the cable shall be charged upon such moneys as the Treasury shall
direct.

The board shall keep such accounts of receipts and expenditure, and the accounts
shall be examined and audited at such times, in such manner and by such persons, as the
Treasury shall direct, and copies of such accounts so audited shall be furnished to each
of the contributing governments.

AILWYN E. FELLOWES.
W. H. FISHER.

February, 1901.

1.3 Victoria Street, London, S.W.,

February 8, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Lord Strathcona and Mount Royal, G.C.M.G.,
17 Victoria Street, S.W.

Referring to your letter of the 26th ultimo and in confirmation of tlie assurance
which I have already given to you that my government would co-operate with Canada

26 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWaPiD VII., A. 1902

in disapproving the step taken by the New South Wales Go\ ernment, I beg to quote
for your information a copy of a cablegram which I have this day receivetl from my
government : —

' Inform High Commissioner for Canada that New Zealand works harmoniously
with Victoria and Queensland and has no intention to agree to the concession asked for
by Eastern Extension Company and will be no party to, wthout consent of partners,
alter conditions or knowingly do anything prejudicial to Pacific cable.'

AV. P. REEVES.

(Cable.)

Mr. Cliamberlain to Lord Minto.

London, February 23," 1901.

Pacific cable — Questions connected with New South Wales agreement had already
been referred to Pacific Cable Board before receipt of your telegram of February 16, but>
I have seen Strathcona and telegraphed to Governor of New South Wales asking for
information required bv Premier for Canadian Parliament.

Pending reply from New South Wales please telegraph on which provisions of
agreement your law officers rely in support of their views of its effect.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

(Cable.)

From Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.

London, February 26, 1901.

deferring to my telegram of February 23, telegram arrived from Governor of New
South Wales stating that policy of New South Wales will be to use the Pacific cable for
all government business ; that in opinion of ministers eflect of agreement will not be to
entitle company to require New South Wales to send all controllable traffic by company's
lines ; that New South Wales is free to send traffic as it pleases, and that no agreement
affecting Australian cable exists or is contemplated by Government of New South Wales,
I presume that explanation of reference to government business in foregoing is that as
postal matters pass shortly to Federal Government control, unrouted private traffic will
be in the hands of federal not of State authoiities.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W., ]\Iarch 6. 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.

I am this day in receipt of your letters of the 18th and 20th ultimo, regarding the
Pacific cable and the agreement between the New South Wales Go\ernment and the
Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

Your cablegram of the 16th ultimo, reading as under, also reached me in due
course : —

'Received your letter of the 1st inst., inclosing agreement dated January 16
between New South Wales and Eastern Extension Company. Canadian law officers
advise that under this agreement Eastern Company most probably entitled to require
South Wales to send all its contri)llable cable traffic by Eastern Company. If similar
agreements with other Australian Colonies, and if this opinion correct, then in as much
as Australian Government own telegraph land lines there would be practically no traffic
from Australasia for Pacific cable. Go\ernment think Australasian Governments parties
to Pacific cable scheme should not contract against sending traffic by Pacific cable nor
enter into any arrangement or understanding likely to divert Australasian traffic from

\^^^ CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 27

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

Pacific cable. Canadian legislatit)n for Canada's share of cost of cable now befoi'e
Parliament. We must take Parliament fully into our confidence in connection with
pending measure. Most important therefore to know view of Imperial Government as
to legal eii'e6t of agreement ; also polic)' of South Wales Government as to sending
traffic by Pacific cable ; also view of New South Wales Government as to effect of
agreement ; also whether any other agreement aflecting Australasian cable traffic exists
or is contemplated by South Wales Government. Government cabling Mr. Chamber-
lain on subject. Please see him.'

As you will have gathered from the message which I sent you on the 19th idem, I
saw Mr. Chamberlain without loss of time. I then lef thim a copy of your cablegram,
together with a memorandum embodying the points raised in your message and which
you desired should^'receive consideration.

Mr. Chamberl^n promised to inquire into the matter, and he authorized me to
inform you, as I did'; that he was cpiite in accord with, and would support, the views of
the Canadian Govermnent in regard to the policy of the New South Wales Government
in entering into the agreement.

On the 26th ultimo, I received a letter from the Colonial Oiiice, dated the previous
day, covering copies of certain telegrams which had passed between ^Ir. Chamberlain
and the Government of New South Wales, and the Governor General of Canada, relati\'e
to the agreement, and I thereupon sent you the following cablegram, based on the
information contained therein : —

' Confidential — Further your cable 1 6th Chamberlain has received cable from
Officer administering Government New South Wales following effect — that policy New
South Wales will be to use Pacific cable for all government business, that agreement
with Eastern Extension Company does not entitle latter require New South Wales send
all controllable traffic by company's lines, that New South Wales free send traffic as it
pleases, that no agreement affecting Australasian cable traffic in existence or contemplated.
Board had first meeting yesterday. All except representative New South Wales
deprecate action that colony in making agreement with Eastern Extension and trust
means can still be found by conference several governments interested prevent its
operating to prejudice Pacific cable.'

I now inclose copies of these papers for your information.

In view of my cablegram of the 26th ultimo, I thought it well to send you to-day
a further message as follows : —

' Received your letters 1 8th and 20th ultimo. Pacific cable. Do you still wish me
to take action on lines indicated in view contents my cable 26th ultimo ? '

The Pacific Cable Board met for the first time on the 2.5th ultimo, as stated in my
message on the following day, and I have no doubt that from this time onward we shall
be having frequent meetings.

I may add, in conclusion, that the action of the New South Wales Government was
borne in mind when the contract for the construction of the Pacific cable was ready for
signature. It was felt, however, that to refuse to proceed with the undertaking, or to
delay the signature of the agreement, would practically be the very course which the
Eastern Extension Company would wish to have adopted. The agreement was there-
fore proceeded with under the authorities which had been given, in the belief that some
means would be found of preventing, or neutralizing, the policy of the New South
Wales Government, should they see fit to enter into an agreement with the Eastern
Extension Company. You will, of course, be aware, that although a similar agreement
has been signed by-Western Australia, South Australia and Tasmania, we have never
looked upon them as possible partners in the Pacific cable scheme, in the same way as
New Zealand, Queensland, New South Wales, and Victoria.

STRATHCONA.

Downing Street, February 25, 1901.
The High Commissioner for Canada.

With reference to the memorandum and the telegram from Sir W^. Laurier, com-
municated by you to Mr. Secretary Chamberlain at your interview with him on the 1 8th

28 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

instant, I am directed bv Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to transmit to you, for j'our infor-
mation, copies of telegrams relative to the agreement concluded on the 16th ultimo be-
tween the Government of New South Wales and the Eastern Extension Telegraph
Company. '

2. Copies of these telegrams have also been sent to the chairman of the Pacific
Cable Board, together with a copy of the telegram from Sir W. Laurier under reference.

C. P. LUCAS.

(Paraphrase.)
(TeJegrani.)

Governor General the Right Hon. the Earl of Minto to Mr. Chamberlain.

Despatched Ottawa p.m. February 16, 1901.

Received Colonial OlBce 8.15 a.m. February 17, 1901.

With reference to previous correspondence respecting Pacific cable. Ministers are
informed that effect of agreement of January 16 between New South Wales and
Eastern Extension Company entitled company to require New South Wales to transmit
all cables from that colony Isj' Eastern Extension lines. If this opinion is correct and
if other Australian Colonies, all of which own land telegraph lines have entered into
similar agreements, there remains practically no ti-affic from Australasia for Pacific
cable. My government is most desirous of successful completion of Pacific cable and
now has notice of bill before Parliament for necessary authority for Canada to share
cost, but before pressing legislature to complete, desires for the information of Parlia-
ment an expression of the \'iew of the various Australasian partners in Pacific cable
scheme as to then- construction of agreement. They also consider it most material that
no government partner should contract against sending traffic by Pacific cable and they
held that each government is entitled to the goodwill of other government partners in
direction of controlling cable traffic hj Pacific cable.

(Telegram.)

Mr. Chamberlain to Officer Administering the Government of New South Wales.

Sent 7.15 p.m., February 18, 1901.

(Urgent and Confidential.)

Canadian Government desires to know for information of Parliament with refer-
ence to agreement of 16th January between Government of New South Wales and
Eastern Telegraph Company : First, what will be policj- of your government as to send-
ing traffic by Pacific cable 1 Secondly, whether in opinion of your ministers effect of
agreement will be to entitle company to require New South Wales to send all controll-
able traffic by company's lines ? Thirdly, whether any agreement affecting Australasian
cable traffic exists or is contemplated by your government ? Telegraph reply.

(Telegram.)

Mr. Chamberlain to Governor General the Earl of Minto.

Sent 5.54 p.m. February 23, 1901.

Pacific cable questions connected with New South Wales agreement had already
been referred to Pacific Cable Board before the receipt of your cypher telegram of 16th
February, but I have seen Strathcona and telegraphed to Government New South
Wales asking for information required by Premier for Canadian Parliament. Pending
reply from New South Wales, please telegraph on what provisions of agreement your
law officers rely in support of their view of its effect.

• CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 29

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77
(Telegram. )

The O/ficer Adminisieriiif/ the Government of New Sotith Wales to Mr. Chamberlain.

Received, Colonial Office, 4.45 a.m., February 25, 1901.

Referring to your telegram of February 18, my Ministers advise first, the policy of
New South Wales will be to use the Pacific cable for all government bu.siness. Secondly,
No. New South Wales is free to send traffic as it pleases. Thirdly, no agreement in
existence or contemplated.

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W., March 23, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.O.,
Ottawa.

In continuation of my letter of the 6th instant, regarding the Pacific Cable and the
agreement between the -New South Wales Government and the Eastern Extension
Telegraph Company, I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your cablegram of the 8th
instant, reading as follows : —

'Mulock sails to-morrow from New York. I would advise to wait for his arrival'

I have accordingly taken an opportunity of conferring with the Hon. Mr. Mulock,
since his arrival in London, and have discussed with him fully the views set forth in
your letters of the ISth and 20th ultimo.

Having regard to the assurances received from the New South Wales Government,
as to their policy in connection with the use of the Pacific Cable, the efi'ect of their
agreement with the Eastern Extension Co., ifec, which were communicated to you in my
cablegram of the 26th ultimo, Mr. jNIulock was of opinion that it might be advisable for
the present to allow the matter to i-emain in the position it occupies ; and I am accord-
ingly taking no action on the lines indicated in your letters to which I have already
referred above.

STRATHCONA.

(Confidential.)

17 Victoria Street, London, S.W., April 24, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G., P.O.,
Ottawa.

In continuation of previous correspondence regarding the Pacific cable, I beg to
transmit to you herewith for your information, a copy of a letter with inclosures which
has reached me from the Colonial Office, on the subject of the agreement concluded on
January 16", 1901, between the Government of New South Wales and the Eastern
Extension Telegraph Company.

I shall be glad to be informed, for communication to Mr. Chamberlain, of the
wishes of the Canadian Government in regard to the suggested appointment of a repre-
sentative to discuss the whole question with representatives of the other Colonial
Governments concerned, and of His Majesty's Government. It is proposed that the
Conference should meet in London. This will enable us to have the benefit of the
advice and assistance of the representative of the Queensland Government, which is
quite in accord with the view taken of the matter all along by Canada.

I also venture to direct your attention to the effect of paragraph 6 of the letter
from the Colonial Office to the' Treasury, dated the 22nd March, 1901, and shall be glad
if I can be favoured with the views of the Dominion Government on the aspect of the
question therein presented.

STRATHCONA.

30 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN *

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

((Jonjidenticd.)

Downing Street, April 11, 1901.
The High Commissioner for Canada.

I am directed bv Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to transmit to you a copy of a letter
from the Pacific Cable Board inclosing resolutions respecting the agreement concluded
on January 16, 1901, between the Go\ernment of New South "Wales and the Eastern
Extension' Telegraph Company, together with copies of a letter on the subject which was
addressed to the Treasury and of the reply from that department.

2. I am to request that Mr. Chamberlain now be fayoured with an expression of
the view taken by your Government of the suggestion that it should appoint a special
representative to consider the whole question with representatives of the other Colonial
Governments concerned and of His Majesty's Government.

H. BERTRAM COX.

February 26, 1901.
The Under-Secretary of State,
Colonial Office.

I have the honom' to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 25th instant,
No. 6256, forwarding to me, for the consideration of the Pacific Cable Board, copies of
teleo-rams relative to the agreement concluded on the 16th ultimo between the Govern-
ment of New South Wales and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

2. In reply I have the honour to forward to you the accompanying copy of three
resolutions which were passed by the Board "on the subject at their first meeting on

Monday last.

S. WALPOLE,

Chairman.

Resolutions of the Pacific Cable Board passed on February 25, 1901.

1 . That the agreement entered into with the Eastern PiXtension Telegraph Com-
pany by the Government of New South Wales is prejudicial to the Pacific cable.

" 2." That it is desirable that a conference representing the Governments concerned
in the enterprise should be held to discuss the eftect of the agreement on the Pacific
cable.

3. That these resolutions be forwarded to the Secretary of State for the Colonies
for transmission to the Governments concerned.

(Immediate.)

Downing Street, March 22, 1901,
The Secretary to the Treasury.

With reference to the letter from this department of January 23, I am directed by
Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to transmit to you, to be laid before the Lords Commissioners
of the Treasury, copies of resolutions recently passed by the Pacific Cable Board respect-
ing the aoreement concluded on the 16th January, 1901, between the Government of
New South Wa?es and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, Limited.

2. Mr. Chamberlain thinks that in communicating these resolutions to the Govern-
ment of Victoria, it would be well to accompany them with some suggestion for meeting
the difficulty in which that government is placed.

3. A niemorandum is transmitted herewith which recapitulates the correspondence
which has passed with the colonial governments on the subject of the proposals of the
Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 31

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

4. While possibly His M;ijest3''s Government may not, in view of the declarations
made to tlie Eastern and Eastern Extension Telegraph Companies in 1S99 as to the
lines on which, so far as the Imperial Govenunent were concerned, the Pacific cable was
to be worked, and in view of the long established policy of this country in freely
according similar privileges to cable companies at home, be justified in protesting on
their own account against the concessions made by the Government of New South
Wales to the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, yet the fact that the agreement
in regard to the Pacific cable was entered into by the several Governments while the
Governments of New South Wales and Victoria had complete control over the cable
tratKc in their respective colonies, may be held to have implied that that arrangement
would continue, that New South Wales and Victoria would- exercise that control by
sending as much traffic as possible over the Pacific cable, that they would refrain from
entering into engagements like the New South Wales agreement, give the State a direct
interest in the traffic of the company, which is a rival of the Pacific cable, and especially
that they would not do so in face of the protests of Canada, New Zealand and Queens-
land, their partners in the Pacific cable scheme.

5. As the Government of New South Wales has actually signed the agreement
with the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company the position as regards that State is
irrevocable, and the strong pressure which the newspapers and mercantile community
are bringing to bear on the Government of Victoria will render it very difficult for that
Government to postpone action indefinitely.

6. In these circumstances it appears to Mr. Chamberlain that the best course
would be for the various Governments interested to consider how the disturbance, which
some of the partners in the Pacific cable scheme think has been brought about by the
agreement, can be readjusted.

7. In their repc^rt of April 21, 1900, the Pacific Cable Committee intimated that a
working arrangement with the Eastern Telegraph Companies would probably be
necessary, and, in any case, for the working of the Fiji-Australasian section pending the
completion of the other sections such an arrangement will be absolutely indispensable.
So long as the Government of Victoria has not finally committed itself to the pr(jposed
agreement, the Pacific Cable Board is in a better position to negotiate with the com-
panies than it woidd be if that State followed the example of New South Wales.

8. Furthermore, the question of terminal charges in Australasia is still unsettled,
and also that of the disposal both in this country and in Australasia of ' unordered '
messages. The settlement of these questions may afford a means of meeting the present
difficulty by a general adjustment satisfactory to all parties.

9. If their Lordships concur, Mr. Chamberlain will be prepared, in communicating
the resolutions of the Board to the representatives in this country of the several govern-
ments concerned, to send also copies of this letter, and to suggest that their govern-
ments should appoint representatives for a special conference to consider the whole
question with representatives of His Majesty's Government.

H. BERTRAM COX.

Treasury Chamber.?, April 2, 1901.
The Under-Secretary of State,

Colonial Office.

I have laid before the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury Mr. Cox's
letter of the 22nd ultimo and the accompanying resolutions recently passed by the Pacific
Cable Board respecting the agreement concluded on .January 16, 190], between the Gov-
ernment of New South Wales and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

Mv Lords desire me to state, for the information of Mr. Secretary Chamberlain,
that they concur in his proposal that the colonial governments concerned should be
invited to appoint representatives for a special conference to consider the whole question
with representatives of His Majesty's Government.

E. HAMILTON.

32 CORRESPONDENCE OS SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Privy Council, Canada,

Ottawa, May 7, 1901.
The Right. Honourable

Lord Strathcoxa and Mount Royal,
London, England.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your favour of April 2-t and
inelosure.s. With regard to the sugge.sted appointment of a representative of the Cana-
dian Government to discuss with the colonial governments and His Majesty's the
.subject of the agreement entered into between the Eastern Extension Telegraph Com-
pany and the Government .of N ew South Wales, it is the desire of the Government of
Canada that you should act in this matter on their behalf.

WILFRID LAURIER.

ExTRACTyroH a Report of the Committee of the HonoinrMe the Pi-ivy Council, approved
hy His Excellency on May 7, 1901.

The Committee of the Privy Council have had under consideration a cable despatch,
hereto attached, dated April 4, 1901, from the Right Honourable Mr. Chamberlain,
respecting agreement between ' Government of New South Wales and Eastern Telegraph
Company '.

The Minister of Justice, to whom the above cable was referred, states that he sees
no reason to modify the view which he expressed upon this agreement as stated in his
letter of February 13, 1901, to the Postmaster General, a copy of which is attachad
hereto.

The Committee advise that His Excellency be moved to forward a certified copy of
this minute, together with copy of the Minister of Justice's letter herein referred to, to
the Right Honourable the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

All which is respectfully submitted for His Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

London, April 4, 1901.
Mr. Chamberlain to Lord Minto.

Referring to your telegram of February 26, law officers of the Crown advise that
agreement between Government of New South Wales and Eastern Telegraph Co. is not
susceptible of construction placed on it by your law officers. Law officers of the Crown
point out that Government of New South Wales nowhere undertakes to send all its
messages by Eastern Telegraph Company's route, nor does agreement protect company
against competition but on the contrary it recognizes the possibility of competition.

CHAMBERLAIN.

16 Victoria Street,

London, S.W., May 13, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid L.-vurier, G.C.M.G., P.C,
Ottawa.

With reference to previous correspondence regarding the situation caused by the
agreement recently concluded between the Government of New South Wales and the
Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, I lieg to transmit to you herewith, for your
information, a copy of a further letter which has reached me from the Colonial Office on

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 33

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

the subject, together witli copies of the correspondence between that department and
the Agents-General for New South Wales, Victoria and New Zealand which accom-
panied it.

STRATHCONA.

DowNixi; S-riiEET, May 8, 1901.
The High Commissioner for Canada. ,

With refei-ence to the letter from this department of April 11, respecting the situ-
ation caused by the agreement recently concluded Ijetween the Government of New
South Wales ami the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, I am directed by Mr.
Secretary Chamberlaiu to transmit to you, for your information, copies of letters on this
subject which have been received from the Agents-General for New South Wales,
Victoria and New Zealand, together with a copy of the reply which has been returned
to the Agent-General for Vict<,)ria.

H. BERTRAM COX.

13 Victoria Stkeet, S.W., April 1-5, 1901.
The Under-Secretary of State,
Colonial Office, S.W.

I am directed by the Agent-General to state, in reply to your letter of the 11th
instant. No. 11886 — 1901, that his government have informed him by cable that they
approve of the recommendation to hold a special conference to discuss the position caused
by the New South Wales agreement with the Eastern Telegraph Company, and will
appoint a representative accordingly.

I am further directed by the Agent-General to state that his government desire it
to be clearly understood that so far as the Colony of New Zealand is concerned, there
must be no departure from the origina! arrangements, at the same time the}' exjiress a
hope that the result of the conference will be that New South Wales will be able to
assume the same position as that held by the other contracting parties.

WALTER KENNAWAY.

The Under-Secretary oi State,
Colonial Office.

9 Victoria Street,

Westminster, S.W., April 17, 1901.

I'liriti'- Cnhh:.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Mr. Cox's letter of the 11th
instant. No. 1188(5 — 1901, covering a copy of a communication from the Pacific Cable
Board, inclosing three I'esolutions passed at its meeting of February 2.5 last, I'espectinw
the agreement concluded on January 16, 1901, between the Government of New South,
Wales and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company ; also a letter on the subject,
dated 2"2nd ultimo, addressed to the Secretary of the Treasury, and of the latter's reply,
dated 2nd instant.

In reply to the request contained in the letter under reference, that Mr. Secretary
Chamberlain might be favoured with an expression of the view taken by my govern-
ment of the suggestion that they should appoint a special representative to consider the
whole ([uestion with i-epresentati\'es of the othei' colonial governments concerned, and
of His ^Majesty's Go\-ernment, I beg to state that I duly forwarded to the New South
Wales Government by the mail of Friday last, a copy of the letter under acknowledg-
ment, and its inclosures, and asked that my government's views on the subject might
be conveyed to me for submission to the Secretary of State. I desire to acquaint you,
77 — 3

34 COBItESPOyDENCE OX SUBJECTS OF IXTERCOLOXIAL COXCEBX

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

however, that I informed theui that the resolutions in (juestion were " majority "
resolutions, and that I had dissented from each one.

On the occasion of the Pacific cable meeting alx)\e alluded >:o, I lequested the
chairman to note that I dissented from the re.solutions, and I shall be glad if my so
dissenting mav be duly recorded, which from the wording of the chairman's letter of
February 26, would not appear to have been done.

HENRY COPELAND.

ViCTOHiA Office,
15 Victoria Street, Westminster, !<.W.. April 17, 1901.

The Under-Secretary of State,
Colonial OtEce.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of Mr. Bertram Cox's letter of
the 11th instant, inclosing, in addition to certain resolutions passed by the Pacific
Cable Board respecting the agreement entered intt) between the New South AYales
Government and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, copies of a letter addressed
to the Treasury and of the reply.

In the letter under acknowledgment it is also requested that ]Mr. Chamberlain
mav be favoured with an expression of the \iew taken by the Victorian Government
with reference to the proposed ailditional conference.

2. With reference to the immediately preceding jiaragraph, I have to request you
to be so good as to inform Mr. Chamberlain that I am communicating with my Govern-
ment on the subject, and that as soon as a reply is received I will duly advise liim of its
terms.

3. I take the opportunity of again placing Ijefore Mr. Chamberlain the difficult
position in which the Victorian Government is placed, and urging with great earnest-
ness that, without prejudice to the terms of the final settlement, the concurrence of His
IMajesty's Government should be given to it to enter into an agreement with the East-
ern Extension Telegraph Company similar to that now in force in New South Wales.

I would venture to submit that my government have it in its power to enter into
this or any other agreement with the Eastern Extension Company without reference to
the Imperial Government or to the Pacific Cable Board : but my government is very
anxious that any action it may take cannot be in any way construed as being a breach
of faith, or as not acting in accordance with the spirit, as well as the letter, of the
agreement dealing with the Pacific cable, ^ly government would now be urging that
this permission be conceded to it had the position remained in sfatx <juo ante the agree-
ment was signed. But my government maintains, and rightly so, that the po.sition has
been considerably altered by New South Wales having ratified its agreement with the
Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

The Pacific Cable Board is of the .same opinion, so much so indeed that it recom-
mends that a conference to consider the whole question should be held between the
Imperial Government and the Colonies concerned. No single member of that board
would suggest, I venture to believe, that Victoria was not the largest sufferer by the
present state of affairs. New South Wales, as well as Soutli Australia, Western
Australia and Tasmania are enjo\-ing much lower cable rates than those in force iii
Victoria, thus creating a state of affairs which is far from advantageous to the com-
mercial and other interests of the state which I have the lionour to represent, and unless
the desii-ed concurrence is given to Victoria this state of affairs will, it appears to me,
remain in force until the Pacific cable is established and why ? Because it is feared
by some of the other parties to the agreement that the Pacific cable, when ready to
start business will be placed at a disadvantage. This opinion is, however, open to serious
question. ^lay it not be that, owing to the reduced rates, business will increase and
that the Pacific cable will get its share of that increase and therefore be directly
benefited ? It is a well known fact that it takes time for a reduced rate, whether postal,
telegraph or cable, to be fully appreciated by a community, and it is possible, therefore,

COERESPONDEyCE ON HUBJECTS OF INTERCOLOXIAL COKCERN 35

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

that the fact that the rates it purposes to charge have been in fm-cc some tiine wmild
act advantageously in the interests of the Pacific cable.

Under these circumstances and especially with a view to the alteration of the posi-
tion causetl by the New South Wales Go^ ernuient adhering to the agreement — an action
which is irrevocable, as stated in paragraph fi\e of Mr. Bertram Cox's lettei' — I again
venture to urge that the objection to my government entering into the proposed agree-
ment with the Eastein Extension Telegraph Company l)e withdrawn, and that the i-e-
arrangement arrived at by the new conference now proposed be made ajiplicable to Vic-
toria equally with New South Wales. This is, I venture to say, a suggestion comprising
a greater sen.se of justice that the i)roposal mentioned in paragraph seven of Mr. Bertram
Cox's letter that Victoria should be made a buffer lietween the Pacific Cable Board and
the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

ANDREW CLARKE,

Downing Street, May 8, 1901.
The Agent-General for Victoria.

I am directed by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain to acknowledge the I'eceijit of your
letter of the 17th ultimo respecting the situation caused by the agreement recently "con-
eluded between the Go\ernment of Ne\\' South Wales and the Eastern Extension
Telegra])h Company, and to transmit to you, for your information, copies of letters which
have been received on the same subject from the Agents-General for New South Wales
and New Zealand.

2. Mr. Chamberlain fully appreciates the spirit in which the Go\ernmeut of
Victoria has acted in this matter, but as His Majesty's Government is only one of the
partners in the Pacific cable scheme, he is unable to recommend that it should take
upon itself the responsibility of approving the course suggested in the third paragraph
of your letter.

3. Copies of your letter have however been forwarded to the Ti'easurv and to the
representati\'es of the other Colonies participating in the Pacific cable scheme.

H. BERTRAM COX.

17 Victoria Street,

London, S.W., May 2.3, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.. P.C,

Ottawa.

I beg to acknowledge your letter of the 7th instant, in which you are good enoufh
to notifj' me that it is the desire of the Dominion Go\ernment that I should represent
them at the conference which it is proposed to hold to consider the whole question of the
agreement conclude<l between the Government of New South Wales and the Eastern
Extension Telegraph Company.

I have communicated to ]Mr. Chamberlain that I have had the honour of recei\-ing
this appointment, and you and your colleagues may rely upon my gi\iug my best
attention to the matters to be discussed.

STRATHCONA.

The Board of Trade of the City of Ottawa,

Ottawa, Canada, June 20, 1901.
The Secretary of State, Ottawa.

The President and Council of the Ottawa Board of Trade have the honour to place
before you the inclosed circular letter addressed to the Boards of Trade and Chambers
of Commerce throughout the British Empire.
77-3^

36 CORRESPONDENCE OX SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 19C2

The Ottawa Board of Traile, in cliiefting attention to the inclosed and in seeking
your aid and co-operation, does so under the firm conviction that the movement to
nationalize our cable and telegraph service is a matter of primary importance to the
British people arounil the globe, and one of the most effective means of advancing their
common interests.

JOHN C0ATE8,

President.

Friiiii till- OifdH-d Bdfird of'l'ritrlp. to the Governor Gein-ral.

Ottawa, Canada, June '!(), 1901.
His Excellency the Governor General,
Canada.

I have the honour on behalf of the Ottawa Board of Trade to submit for Your
Excellency's information and for the infoi-mation of the members of your government,
the inclosed documents on the subject of state-owned cables and a postal service for the
empire.

The president and council of the Ottawa Board of Trade, in directing attention to
the inclosed, does so under the firm conviction that the movement to nationalize our
cable and telegraph ser^•ice is a matter of primary importance to the British people
around the globe, and one of the most effective means of advancing their common
interests.

JOHN COATES,

President.

17 Victoria Street,

London, .S.W.. July 4, 1901.
The Right Honourable

Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.il.G., P.C.
Ottawa, Canada.

On receipt of your further letter of April :2(5, regarding the opinion of the law
officers of the Crown on the effect of the agreement recently concluded between the
Government of New South Wales and the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company, I at
once placed mvself in communication with the Colonial Office in order that the matter
mio-ht again be submitted to the law otlicers for their further consideration in the light
of the view expressed by the Minister of Justice.

I now understand that Mr. Chamberlain has recently addressed a despatch to the
Governor General, embodving the reasons for which the law officers of the Crown are
unable to concur in !Mr. !NIills' view of the agreement, or the construction which he puts
upon it. I have no doubt that a copy of this communication will come before you in
due course.

STRATHCONA.

.Ur. Cha/nher/dtii In Lmd Minto.

London, July 24, 1901.

Pacific cable. Referring to your telegram of December .31, understand that Act
promised has passed, but with suspending clause in order to secure settlement of the
question referred to in your despatch No. 13-5, !May 11, before it can come into opei-a-
tion. In view of law officers' opinion, forwarded by my despatch No. 18-3, June 26,
mav I assume that Act will be proclaimed without delay, matter of urgency \ H.M.
Government propose to introduce bill into Parliament immediately and attorneys,
Canada, have given necessary undeitaking that will pay her share of loan charged.
Telegraph replv as soon as possible.

cha:mberlain.

COKRESPOXDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLOmAL CONCERN 37

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

ExTRACT_/"ro»; a Bfport cf the Committee t;f'//if Iloiiiiiiriihh the I'rirjj VcinicU, (ijtproved
by His EjxeUenry on July 30, 1901.

The Committee of the Privy Council, on the reeommeudation of the Acting ilinister
of Justice, advise that a proclamation of Your Excellency in Council do issue naming
Thursday, the 1st daj- of August next, as the day upon which the Act passed at the
late session of Parliament, 1st Edward VII., chap. .5, intituled, 'An Act to amend the
Pacific Cable Act, 1899," shall come into force and ettect.

CORRESPONDENCE— HON. MR. MULOCK TO RT. HON. 8IR WILFRID
LAURIER, 28th MARCH, 1901, TO 6th AUGUST, 1901.

Steamship 'Himalaya,'

Marseilles, March 28, 1901.
Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfkii;) Laurieh, G.C.M.G.,
Premier of Canada.

We have reached Marseilles, and as the Nim'^/nya does not sail for a couple of
hours, I a\-ail myself of the interval to write you in regard to some matters to which I
ha^e given attention during my few days' stay in London.

In the hope of having an opportunity when in Australia of doing something in the
direction of improving steamship communication between Vancouver and Sydney
(Australia) and of establishing a cargo line between Canada and Australia ria the
Atlantic, I discussed these subjects with Loixl Strathcona, certain of the Australasian
agents in London, and persons engaged in shipping business. During the course of such
investigations I learned from the Hon. 3Ir. Copeland, Agent-General for New South
Wales in London, that the United States had recently reached the decision to enforce
certain provisions i)f its navigation laws, which enforcement, now that the Hawaiian
Islands have become possessions of the United States, must seriously interfere with the
Canadian trade now being carried cjn with Australasia by the British line of steamers
sailing between Vancouver and Svdnev. Understanding that ^Ir. Copeland had been
in communication \\ith the United States Government upon the subject, I called upon
that gentleman, who shijwed me the correspondence which had passed between himself
and the United States representatixe, the last communication from the United States
being to the efl'ect that the provisions of the Act in question had been allowed to lie
dormant for a sufficient length of time, and that now that thev had been put in force
no retrograde step would be taken. The probable effect of such action, if the govern-
ments concerned remain indifferent, may be to prevent the development, if it does not
imperil the very existence of our Vancouver-Sydney line. The manifest object must be
to drive our line off the seas, to thereby force Canada to withdraw from the Australian
market, and, so far as Canada is concerned, to enal)!e the United States people to cap-
ture it for themselves.

The present line of steamers between Vancou\er and Sydney, New South Wales,
is being operated under a joint arrangement between a company represented by Sir
Edwin Dawes, who represents what was formerly the Huddart interest, and the Union
Steamship Company of New Zealand, represented bv Mr. !Mills. The vessels are, I
understand, inferior both as to speed and carrying capacity to the line of steamers
known, I think, as the Spreckles line, plying between San Francisco and Australia. I
saw both of these gentlemen, Sir Edwin Dawes and ^Mr. 3Iills, with a view to ascertain-
ing whethei' they were prepared to impi-ove their line by adopting a better class of
steamers. Both of them expressed themselves verj' apprehensive as to the fate of their
line in consequence of the action of the United States to which I have alluded, inform-
ing me, and in this thev were confirmed bv Mr. Copeland, that there had been a marked
inciease in the volume of L'nited States business done by the Spreckles line with
Australia, since it had recently undergone a eon.«iderable improvement. Messrs. Mills
and Dawes did not appear at all enthusiastic in regard to any proposition looking to
any consideralile expenditure of capital for supplying a greatly improved class of

38 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

steamer. On this point I had several conversations with the London agent (whose
name I forget this moment) of the Vancouver line, and was told by him of a rimiour
that the Canadian Pacific Railway contemplated taking off their Empress steamers from
the Japan route and substituting therefor some much superior ships. It occurred to
me that it would be a good thing if, in the event of such action on the part of the
C. P. R., their Empresses could be put upon the Australian route, and accordinglv I
had inquiry made of the London representati\e of the C. P. R., who cabled to Canada
for information and subsequently informed me that there was no foundation for the
rumour. The Empresses do, I think, about fifteen knots on the aAerage, though of
greater speed. Mr. Mills seemed disinclined to equip his line of ships even up to the
standard of the Empresses and intimated to me that the Governments of Australia and
Canada had recently renewed their subsidies to his line for three j-ears and this he
regarded as settling matters on their present basis for that time. To this I ob-served
that even if the subsidies had been renewed, yet, inasmuch as considerable time would
be required in the building of new steamers it did not appear pi-emature at once to
arrange for a new basis, and that if higher class ships were substituted for those at
present in use it would be veiy easy to awange for an alteration of the subsidies to take
effect as each new ship took the place of an old one. ]Mr. ^lills seemed unwilling to
consider a proposition involving ships of a speed exceeding fifteen knots. Of course I
was careful in mv conversations with him, and with everyone, in fact, to make it quite
clear that I had no authority fmm the Canadian Government to commit it to any
arrangement.

Mr. Mills is the managing director in Xew Zealand of the Union Steamship Com-
pany, a company owning a very large number of ships engaged in the coasting trade of
New Zealand and Australia, and it would manifestly be to the advantage of the
Canadian line if it had a friendly alliance with the Union Company. By its means
Canadian products shipped to Australia could be readily distributed by its many ships
throughout all parts of Australasia. In addition to that circumstance it .seems to me
but fair that the persons who have already put money into the Vancouver line should,
if possible, be afforded an opportunity of bringing the character of the service up to
j)resent requirements. I closed my discussions with Mr. !Mills upon the untlerstanding
that he would confer with Sir Edwin Dawes and then, if possible, cable to their
representative in ilelbourne for my information, stating what their company would be
prepared to do in the way of a betterment of the line, making two propositions, one for
a fifteen, the other for a sixteen knot service, the ships to be about equal to the
Empresses. Even such a line would be of great service to Canadian trade and would
also promote passenger tratfio via Canada between Australasia and Europe. The
C. P. R. would be large gainers, and, I think, it would be reasonable to expect
them to aid the line by a dii-ect contribution in the way of subsidy and also by
such a regulation of their train service between Vancouver and the east as would
enable thesteamship line to successfully compete with the San Francisco line for passenger
and mail traffic via the Canadian route. If, when in Australia, I receive the proposi-
tions above referred to, I will, if an opportunity offers, bring the matter to the attention
of the Commonwealth Government.

We should reach ilelbourne about the end of April, and I have secured our return
passage bvthe China, .sailing from Melbourne on June -t, which will bring us to London
about the middle of July. I am returning ^ia England on tlie chance of being able
when there to advance negotiations for the service in question. I have also taken
passage bv the Lucanid, sailiui; from Liverpool on August U_) for New York, and will
be in Toronto not later than ilonday, August 19.

I arrived in England with a slight rheumatic pain in my right shoulder and arm.
London ilarch winds developed it, causing excruciating pain. Perhaps it may pass
away when we get into warm weather. In my discussions of transportation and other
Canadian matters with Lord Strathcona, it was most gratifying to observe the deep
keen interest that he takes in everything that makes for the good of our country.
Canada is most fortunate in her Hijrh Commissioner. AVith best wishes I am, my dear
Sir Wilfrid.

W. MULOCK.

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 39

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77 ,

Stkamhhif ' Himalaya,'

Colombo, April 1.), 1901.
Riiiht Hoiiouiable

Sir WiLFKiD Lauhier,

Premier of Canada.

We are approaching Colombo in Ceylon, where I shall post this letter. The coui'se
after lea\-ing Ceylon is to Freeniantle, some three thousanfl odd miles, and two thousand
more will bring u.s to Melbourne. You will doubtless have already received from me a
letter written on board ship at Marseilles regarding transportation matters, and I will
again refer to the subject.

The United States is rapidly de\el(iping its trade with Australia. ^Mr. Patersou
can furnish vou with the figures. We shoukl, I think, make vigorous and early efforts
to establish regular business communication with Australia, where, I think, a good mar-
ket awaits many of our Canadian products. The one great cliffieult\-, apart from distance,
is, what are we to liuv in exchange. We can take their raw sugar, and on this point I
would submit the following obser\ations. Australian sugar may be entitled to come in
under our preferential tariff, liut unless we adopted countervailing duties might be
unable to compete in Eastern Canada with bountj'-fed Belgian and German sugars.
Their adoption would also encourage the production of Canadian beet-root sugar.

In addition to a betterment of the steamship serWce l>etween Vancou\er and
Sydney, there should, I think, be established a freight line between Eastern Canada and
Australia. Such a line would probably require fi:)ur or five vessels in all to provide a
regular monthlv sailing from Canada. The ves.sels could start from ^lontreal in summer,
touching at Canadian ports, but should not be permitted to call at any other port
between Canada and Australia except it be in South Africa. Let such a line be ex-
clusively British. It would, I think, prove of great value to Canadian industries, for
it would most certainly be the means of developing trade with Australasia.

There is no question as to our being able to do a large export trade in such articles
as paper, pulp, lumber, fui-niture and woodenware, general electrical appliances,
agricultural implements, machinery, boots and shoes, cottons, woollens, iron, steel,
canned fish, &c., Ac. We ciiuld take in return raw sugar, wool, hides, tin, perhaps,
though doubtful on this point, some of the Australian heavy woods, and such tropical
fruits as are raised there and are capable of l)eing transported long distances. They
raise oranges, lemons, prunes, nuts, kc, articles of which we import large (piantities.
Even if Canada has to incur s<ime expense in the establishment of a cargo line, it wOl
indirectly help the country l)y enabling us to find a market in Australia for our output.

It may be asked why -v.e should subsidize a line via the Atlantic anfl another via
the Pacific to Australia. The answer is obvious. Freight rates from Eastern Canada
to the British Columbian coast must, I think, greatly handicap Eastern Canada if her
freights must cross the Canadian continent en route to Australia. Xine-tenths of the
people of Canada and almost our whole manufacturing industries are in Ontario and
other easterly provinces. To send goods to Australia \-ia Vancouver subjects them to rail-
way freight rates for three thousand miles across our continent to the Pacific Ocean, and
when these gixxls are landed at Sydney in Xew South Wales they are subject to further
land and water freight rates if destined for ilelbourne, Adelaide or Western Australia.
It is perhaps safe to say that these Australian charges will ecjual the freight charges
from Eastern Canada to Vancouver. All these land charges would be saved if these
goods could be shiiiped from St. Lawrence or Atlantic ports by vessels proceeding via
the Atlantic to Australia and delivering them at the ports of tlieir final destination in
Australia. There would, of course, be some slight land haul in Canada, namely to St.
Lawrence or Atlantic ports, but averaging, perhaps, not five hundred miles as against
many times that distance if the Vancouver route is adopted for eastern goods. In
dwelling upon the importance of an Atlantic line for Eastern Canada, I do not under-
estimate the value of the Vancouver route for Western Canada but consider that Canada
with her double water front requires the two .services.

Whilst to some extent our possibilities for trade with Australia will depend upon
the result of the Australian elections, and the fiscal policy of the successful party, still,

40 COBRESPOXDEXCE O^V SUBJECTS OF IXTERCOLOXIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

even if the Commonwealth should adopt an essential!}- protective tariff", Canada will have
at least, an equal chance in that country with all comers and perhaps a better one, for
we might be alile to enter into some reeij)roeal preferential trade. There may be no op-
portunit}- for m^- making any overtures to the Australian 6o\ernment, but there is a
chance. Of course nothing can be concluded, but perhaps it may be possible to give a
favourable start to negotiations. The Australian Government might be willing to take
power to make trade arrangements with other part.s of the empire. If the powere
•which Mr. Fielding has taken in this direction are not sufficient, would it not be well to
have them enlarged ',

Enough upon juiblic matters. The rheumatic affection in my arm has not abated
but continues to gi\'e me intense pain. The ship surgeon informs me that it is in the
nerves and that recovery will be slow. Hoping 3-ou ai'e quite well, I am,

W. :\IULOCK.

Melbourne, Australia, ^Ma}- 20, 1901.

Rt. Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,
Premier of Canada.

I presume you will have already received my last letter, posted at Colombo, referring
chiefly to trade matters between Canada and Australia. Since reaching heie I have
availed myself of every suitable occasion to discuss the subject with ]\Ir. Barton, Prem-
ier of Australia, who has e.xpressed his strong desire for closer trade relations between
the two countries, if a satisfactory basis can be found. We discussed in a general waj'
the question of a nnitual preference, and in this connection I pointed out to him the
provision in the Canadian Customs Tariff" under which Australia might so fix its duties
as to secure the benefit of our mininnun tariff", suggesting that perhaps his government
might see its way to adopting similar legislation. To this proposition he observed that
hiff government would be unable to reach any conclusion in regard to the question of
reciprocal preferential trade with Canada or any other colony until the views of the Im-
perial Government upon the subject were first ascertained. He also pointed out that
before taking such a step his government would ha^e to consider its effect upon trade
relations of Australia with other countries, and therefore he did not think the subject
was ripe for consideration by his government or the Commonwealth Parliament. I
pointed out to him that perhaps some progress might be made if his government were
to obtain power from parliament at the present Session to make a reeijimcal trade
arrangement with Canada, and whilst he regarded this view with a certain measure of
favour, still I have reached the conclusion that the difficulties in the wav of preparing
a tai'iff" measure for the Commonwealth at this its first session are such that the govern-
ment will hesitate to impart into the measure any controversial feature not ablsolutely
necessary' for immediate ]>urposes. We discussed only in the most general way the sub-
ject of tariff' details. Whilst Australia can take much that Canada produces, there
appears to be a somewhat limited list of articles that Canada can take from Australia.
Still it might be possible to agree upon a schedule of articles to be put on a preferential
list.

In my Colombo letter to you I referred to the necessitj' for impro\'ed transportation
by the establishment of a better steamship line for the Pacific service, and a line of
cargo shijjs for the service from eastern Canada via the Atlantic, perhaps touching at
the Cape en route for Australia. IMr. Barton yesterday stated that his government
would be prepared to co-operate foi- the betterment of the Pacific service. As to the
Atlantic service, we are to discuss this further. As yet he has expressed no opinion.

I think the complications growing nut of the action of New South Wales in regard
to the Pacific cable call for a revision of the terms upc)n which the various governments
united in connection with that work. Perhaps you may not be fully aware <:)f the nature
of the action of New South Wales. Permit me, therefore, to explain it. The Australia
States own all the land telegraph lines. At the time of Canada and the other go\ernments

CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 41

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

agreeing to the Pacitie eahle .soheme, the Eastei-n Extension Telegrajili Comi)an3' enjoyed
no rights or privileges in Austraha to operate land lines or maintain offices for tiie
receipt and delivery of messages, the various Australian States at their telegraph offices
receiving from the public all messages for transmission by cable, and also all messages
coming by cable for distribution. You will thus see that at this time the Australian
States practically controlled the route to be taken by all messages handed in to them for
transmission, unless the senders routed them by a particular cable line. This condition
of affairs gave an assured revenue to the Pacific cable. I have not with me the contract
and other Pacific cable papers, but, speaking from memory, my recollection is that the
contract for the construction of the Pacific cable was executed upon December 31, 1900,
that fifteen days thereafter. New South Wales (before its telegraph system had passed
over to the Commonwealth), in disregard of its partnership obligations towards tlie other
governments, entered into an agreement with the Eastern Extension Cable Company,
empowering that cimipany to construct certain land lines in New 8i)uth Wales, open
offices, itc, and practically to duplicate that ■State's land telegraph system. This con-
cession, jilacing as it does, the Eastern Extension Company in an infinitely better position
for gathering business, materially alters the conditions existing when the partnership was
formed.

The action of New South Wales cannot, I think, be regarde<l as just or fair towards
her co-partners. The neighbouring State of Victoria, though strongly urged to do so,
has up to the present refused to follow the action of New South Wales, which, because
of this concessitin, now enjoys cheaper cable rates than Victoria. The Imperial Govern-
ment, I understand, concurs with Canada in disapproval of the action of New South
"Wales. I have discus.sed the matter with ilr. Barton, and whilst he regrets the action
of New South Wales, he points out that the Commonwealth, having inherited the com-
plication growing out of that action, must adopt it. Much pressure continues to be
brought t(_) bear to compel Victoria tt) follow New South Wales' lead. Yesterday the
INIelboui'ne papers published cable despatches from London to the effect that ]Mr. Chamber-
lain had been consulted by the State of Victoria as to whether the Imperial Governmeut
would disapprove of ^'ictoria following the action of New South Wales and liad refused
such approval. Leading Melbourne papers yesteiday assailed the Government here for
having submitted the matter at all to Mr. Chamberlain. Mr. Barton would like to see
an honourable waj- out of the difficulty, and whilst regarding it as the duty of the
Commonwealth to live up to the spirit of the Pacific cable partnership arrangement, still
he sees no way of un<loing New South Wales' action.

I pointed out to him that (as compared with that of Australia) Canada's commercial
interest at present in the Pacific cable was small, for Canada would use the cable in con-
nection only with her own Australasian business, whilst Australia would use it for its
Canadian, English and European business, or if it did not so use it, would still get the
benefit of it as a regulator of rates in connection with that business. Thus whilst
Canada would derive no material indirect athantage for her share of the loss in the
working of the cable, Australia might be fully compensated indirectly by the arhantage
which her commercial men would derive from a reduction of cable rates no matter by
what line their business was done. I also intimated to Mr. Barton that the more
Canada's business with Australia increased, the less would she be a sufferer by the action
of New South ^^'ales, and that his government had it in its power therefore to make
such trade arrangements with Canada as would greatly extend our trade with Australia
and correspondingly repair the injury occasioned by the action of New South ^^ ales.
Mr. Barton apjiears to quite realize the injustice occasioned to Canada by the State
depriving the Pacific cable of the business which it had a right to expect in consequence
of the conditions existing when the partnership was formed, and expressed himself as
most anxious that the Commonwealth should not, at its very inception, do anything to
lose the sympathy and goodwill of Canad;i, which they feel they no«- enjoy in a marked
degree.

There appear to me but two possible .soluticmsto the difficulty. Either a re-aii-ange-
ment of the present financial basis whereby the Commonwealth will relieve Canada of a
material part of its share in the financial liability of the Pacific cable enterprise, or make

42 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

sudi a preferential trade agreement witli us as will greatlv increase our trade with
Australia.

W. MULOCK.

Hotel Cecil,

LoxDox, W.C, August (5, 1901.

Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,
Premier of Canada.

On the first suitable occasion after meeting tlie Right Honourable Mr. Barton,
Premier of Australia, I brought up the question of the relations between Australia and
Canada, when he gave expression to the kindliest feelings towards the Dominion, and
the hope that it might be possible to bring the two countries into closer trade relations.
On this occasion the discussion did not reach beyond generalities but it was arranged
that we should at a subsequent meeting consider particulars. In order to centre the
discussion around some points in which Canada might be considered as having a special
interest, I drafted a letter enumerating some of these points, and they became the sub-
ject of discussion at our various meetings in Melbcjurne, Svdnev and on the train.

At one of our S^'dney meetings I delivered to ^Ir. Barton a letter dated May -8,
which is practically a copy of my draft letter that we had before us at previous meetings.
The following is a copiy of the letter.

Sydney, May 28, 1901.
Right Honourable Edmund Barton, P.C,
Prime Minister of Australia.

With reference to our discussion as to the adoption of methods looking to increased
and unproved trade relations between Australia and Canada, it occurs to me that a con-
siileration of the following propositions might be of service.

1. Absolute free trade between the two countries excepting in respect of liquors
tobaccos, and perhaps a few other named articles.

2. Free trade in respect of an enumerated list.

3. Reciprocal trade on a preferential basis except as to articles mentioned in pro-
position numbei' one.

4. Reciprocal trade on a jireferential basis in respect of an enumerated list.

■5. Free trade in respect (jf an enumerated list, and also reciprocal trade on a pre-
ferential basis in respect of an enumerated list.

It would also seem necessary to deal with the subject of transportation, and in this
connection to con.sider whether it would not be advisable to improve the existing mail
service between Australia and Canada ■sia the Pacific by putting on a line of steamers
of a speed of not less than say 16 knots, and, also by establishing a cargo line, with
regular sailings from Eastern Canada \ia the Cape, touching at Freemantle, Adelaide,
^lelbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, and perhaps other Australian ports. The cargo vessels,
when not having a full cargo of through freight, might on voyage touch and trade at
the Cape.

Owing to the long land transportation between Vancouver and Eastern Canada,
the attempt to obtain a market in Eastern Canada for Australian proflucts sent A'ia
Vancouver must always be seriously handicappefl. A regular line of cargo steamers
sailing between Australian and Canadian Atlantic ports would, in all probability, lead
to Australia largely securing the Canadian market, which is a growing one, for many
articles which Canada could take from Australia, such as raw sugars, hifles and skins,
cottons, jams of tropical fruits, w-ool, tin, etc.

With reference to sugar, Canada imports annually over 300,000,000 pounds, of
which Australia sent us last year about 16,000,000 pounds. Most of our sugar refineries
are in Eastern Canada, and accessible by ocean-going steamers. At present Canada
imports annually from Belgium and Germany alone about •2.")0,000,000 pounds of raw

CORRESPONDENCE ON SCBJECTS OF INTEIICOLOXIAL CONCERN 43

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

sugai-. Slumld Australia desire to .secure the Canadian market for sugar tlie iiuestion
would arise whether to counteract bounties on any ot' our imported suirars it would not
be necessary to establish countervailing 'luties.

C-\BL1J fOMMlNlC'ATIoN.

The concessions granted bv New South AVales to the Eastern Extension Cable
Company may so seriously affect the financial success of the Pacific cable scheme as to
develop a feelina; ai;ainst the policy of state owned cables. I do not know whether any
honourable course exists that woukl admit of the recision of these eonce.ssions. If the
various governments look forward to an extension of the Pacific cable to the Orient it
would seem that the interested governments, before uniting in any such extension
scheme, might reasonably press for a return to the ' status quo ' existing when the Pacific
cable partnership was formed.

Doubtless there are many other methods whereby trade interests between the two
countries may be developed, and to that end I can confidently assure you that anything
looking to the advancement of Australia's interests will receive the most favourable con-
sideration of the Canadian Government. Perhaps, to prevent lo.ss of time, you might
consider the subject of sufficient importance to ask parliament to empower your govern-
ment to deal with it without further le<;islation.

w[llia:\i mulock.

As to the taritt' i|uestion, I inferred from what !Mr. Barton statefl that the Common-
wealth Go\-ernment harl nt)t made sufficient progress with their tariti' scheme to be in a
position to deal with special tariff features such as might be involved in reciprocal trade
relations between Australia and Canada. Mr. Barton pointed out two difficulties in the
way of a preference to Canada, one that it might re.sult in other countries retaliating
against Australia; the other, that they could hardly grant a pi'eference to Canada and
withhold it from Great Britain. In answer to the former objection, I observed that the
empire was one political organization and, that, as regards foreign countries, tariff relations
within the empire were matters of purely domestic concern, and that if the whole empire
took this view there would probably be no (juestion (.)f retaliation. As to the latter
objection, I expressed the hope that Australia might Vje able t() extend to Great Britain
any rates or privileges granted to Canatla. If she should not see hei' way to doing so, I
think there woukl be no difficulty in obtaining from Great Britain an expression of
willingness that Australia and Canada might make between themsehes whatever trade
bargains they chose.

We discussed the subject of transportation, and Jlr. Barton expressed his cordial
sympathy with any policy looking for an improvement of existing line between Van-
couver and Sydney, and I think it can fairly be a.ssumed that he will heartily co-operate
with Canada to that end.

As to giving a subsidy to a caigo line, he stated that the proposition came to him
as a new one, and he could not form an npinion in regai-d to it without further consider-
ation.

As to the Pacific cable scheme, he assured me that the Counnonwealth would afford
no ground of complaint to the various governments concerned, Ijut that, as the heir to
the obligations of the various .states, Australia would have to stand by what each state
had done.

From about the thirtieth of May until my fleparture from ^lelbourne on the fourth
of June, there were daily meetings between Mi: Barton and myself for the discussion of
trade, transportation, cable and other matters, resulting in our reaching the conclusion
that, having regard to the great interests involved, it would be advisable that an inter-
colonial conference should be held in the near future when these subjects and any other
matters of inter-colonial concern might be fully considered by representative of the
various governments, and it was arranged that we would .so present the matter to our
respective governments. He menticmed that his Parliament might continue in session
until near Novemlier, and we talked of December as probably the earliest convenient

44 CORRESPONDENCE OX SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLOXIA L CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

date for a meeting. The next session of tlie Australian Parliament will be in the spring
of 1902, and if the results of the conclusions of any such conference should call forth
legislative action at the next meetings of the respective parliaments of the two countries
the conference should be held at the earliest possible date. Mr. Barton expressed a
willingness to endeavour to obtain legislative authoritv in advance in respect of recijirocal
trade with Canada, but the state of political parties in the Commonwealth Parliament is,
I fear, not so satisfactory as to enable the government to altogether control such legis-
lation.

It is advisable, I think, to take advantage of the present very friendly feeling
Ijetween Australia and Canada by having a conference at an early date.

As to a place of meeting, ilr. Barton. 1 think, would not expect us to go to Aus-
tralia. He and his associate ^Ministers might be willing to come to Vancouver or
Loudon.

On th,e eve of my departure from Australia I wrote him the following letter, and
since reaching London have received his acknowledgment (copy bejow), which is but an
echo of the good feeling prevailing throughout Australia towards Canada.

Adel.\il)E, June 6, 1901.
The Right Honourable Edmund B.\rtox, P.C,
Premier of Australia.

I cannot leave your shores witlwut expressing both personally and as representative
of Canada at the celebrations connected with the inaugural proceedings of the Australian
Commonwealth Parliament, my grateful appreciation of the hospitality extended to
myself and party, and of the completeness of the arrangements for our comfort and enjoy-
ment. I shall take back with me most pleasuralile impressions of your people and
country, amongst them the kindly feeling entertained by Australia towards Canada, a
feeling which is fully reciprocated.

Your young Commonwealth enters the family of nations with tlie liest wishes of
the Dominion for her development and her prosperity, and no portion of the Empire
will take a deeper interest in Australia's welfare.

Belie\e nie, my dear ISIr. Premier,

WILLI A:Nr MULOCK.

Melboirse, June li, 1901.
Hon. W. ^IiLOCK.

I have to thank you \ery sincerely for the expressions contained in the letter you
addressed to me from Adelaide on the eve -of your departure from Australia. I am
indeed gratified to know that j'our stay amongst us was a pleasant one, and that your
short experience of Australia has enabled you to take back with you pleasurable im-
pressions of our country and its people.

I need hardly say that your visit has been a source of very considerable personal
pleasure to myself. It will, however, I feel sure, prove of distinct advantage to the
Commonwealth, both in intensifying those kindly feelings between Canada and Australia
to which you so generously refer, and in throwing new light on those questions of common
importance which I ha\"e had the pleasure of discussing with you.

It affords us no small encouragement, in undertaking the task of setting our federal
machinery in motion, to know that we have the good wishes and the sympathetic interest
of a community which has performed a similar task with such signal success. These
good wishes are most heartily reciprocated, and I speak not only for myself, but for the
people of Australia, when I express the earnest hope that the present friendly feeling
which subsists between Canada and Australia, which your visit has done so much to
strengthen, may be a permanent characteristic, of our intercourse.

EDMUND RAKTON.

N CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 45

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

I may adfl that in >ou\ersatioii 31r. Barton continually expressed the friendliest
feelings towards Canada, and I ha\'e no douljt of his sincerity. Hence another reason
for the conference being held when conditions appear so favourable.

W. MULOCK.

Hotel Cfx'il,

London, W.C, August li, 1!)()1.
Rt. Hon. .Sir Wilfrid Laurieu, G.C.M.G.,
Premiei' of Canada.

During my stay in Australia I met many representatives of Canadian manufac-
turers, and had an opportunity of discussing with them the prospects of Canada finding
there a good market for her manufactured goods, and without a single exception all as-
sured me that with proper transportation facilities we might confidentlv l(3ok forward to
our sales to Australia steadily increasing and assuming very considerable proportion.s.
If friendly feeling on the part of the people is a factor in connection with such trade,
Canada certainly enjoys that advantage f(jr everywhere is manifested the kindliest feel-
ing towards the Dominion. At present Canadian goods reach Australia by two routes,
namely the Vancouver and Sydney line, and by vessels sailing from New York. Our
manufacturers' representatives in Australia made known to me the inade([uacy of the
existing transportation arrangements.

As to the Vancou\-er line they pointed out that it involved long railway haul in
Canada and also in Australia. The shi|is of this line call at Brisbane and Sydney only
in Australia. Goods destined for other parts of the island must reach their destination
by rail or water. As to the American route they assured me that Canadian goods were
discriminateil against by the shipping companies being fretjuently left behind, and the
prefei'euce given to American goods where the total amount ofi'ered for carriage exceeded
the ship's capacity. In consequence of this treatment they i-eport Canadian trade
greatly handicapped, it being impossible to give satisfactory assurances to Australian
merchants as to the date when the goods will arrive. Some of these representatives of
Canadian houses intimated that unless better transpoi-tation facilities were provided it
might residt in their houses abandoning trade with Australia.

As to transportation, Ijoth before going to Australia and since my return to Lon-
don, I have met Mr. James Mills, managing director of the existing line of steamers
between Vancouver and Sytlney, and whilst he is not very desirous of improving the
character of the line throughout, he apiieared to indicate a willingness to try the effect
af an improvement to the extent of putting on one sixteen knot ship. Mr. Mills lives
in New Zealand, and will be returning via Canada this fall, and will come to Ottawa on
his way through ti) discuss the subject.

Witli further reference to the betterment of the line between Vancouver and
Sydney, and the establishment of a cargo line between Canada and Australia, I beg to
state that Mr. Cox, the Australian agent of the London firm of Birt, Potter & Hughes,
Limited, called upon me and stated that this company represented the Ferleral Steam
Navigation Company, of which Mr. Hughes was chairman, that this company had at
present a line of steamers sailing between New York and Australia, and would be pre-
pared to take up the subject of the establishment of lines between Vancouver and
Sydney, and Eastern Canada and Australia. He showed me a letter from Mr. Ward,
of New Zealand, stating that New Zealand would contribute twenty thousand pounds
subsidy towards such a line provided one of its terminal points was in New Zealand.
Subsequently ]\Ir. Hughes and ^Ir. Cox called, when the matter was further discussed.
!Mr. Hughes assured me that his company was financially strong, and quite capable of
carrying out any of its undertakings.

As to the establishment of a line between Eastern Canada and Australia, he
thought it advisable to ascertain the tonnage of Canadian freight now going by his line
from New York, and he subsequently called and stated that he had cabled for informa-
tion and lie found that the present volume of Canadian freight woulrl furnish a full

46 CORRESPOXDEXCE OX SUBJECTS OF IXTERCOLOXIAL COXCEBX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

car<;o for from four to five ships of the character that he would sugiiest for this route.
I think he mentioned sliips of six thousanfl tons. He stated tliat one of the chief cus-
tomers \\as the firm of Massey-Harris, and it would be important to ascertain their at-
titude with regard to any direct Canadian line. He also pointed out the importance
of having satisfactory railway- rates to the seaboard during the time that the St. Law-
rence navigation was closed. He expressed the view that it would be better for Canada
not to stipulate for a round trip but simply secure one .sailing a month from
Canada, allowing the ships to work their way back as best they could. Mr. Hughes is
prepared to come to Canada whenever it is thought desirable to further discuss this
question. I think that, considering the Canadian trade via the Atlantic with Australia
already under all the disadvantages attending it, furnishes freight for about five ships a
year, it would be a short time before it would supply a full monthly cargo and go be-
yond that. What the trade requires is regularity and certainty of transportation.
Unce these guarantees are forthcoming, business houses in Canada will feel warranted
in incurring the expense of estaVilishing themselves in Australia, but those facilities of
transportation must, I submit, precede the establishment of trade on anything like a
satisfactory basis. I would therefore think it advisable to establish by subsidy a line of
steamers sailing monthly frt)m various jiorts in Canada to Australia, the arrangement to
be for say three years.

I find from a return to the Imperial Parliament (Commercial No. 4, 1900) that it
is the practice of many governments to subsidize their mercantile marine. For instance,
France last year paid to her mercantile marine by way of subsidy for construction,
£196,000 ; for navigation, tonnage and mileage, £452,000, or a total of £648,000. This
covers a line to Australia. Germany pays £115,000 a year for the maintenance of the
North German Llovd line with Australia, and in adrlition the steamship company ob-
tains certain indirect advantages such as reduced railway rates, and also exemption from
customs duties on materials entering into the construction and operation of their ships.
Other countries furnish like precedents. In 1898 Canada subsidized the Manchester
freight line. ^Ir. Hughes did not approve of the outgoing Australian ships taking
freight to .South Africa. There would however be no objection, I think, to deli\ering
mails there. I think mails from Halifax for Cajie Colony Ijy a ten knot steamer would
reach Cape Town sooner than if sent via England.

W. MULOCK.

Offick of the HuiH Commissioner fou Can.\d.\,

17 VicTORi.A Street, London, S.W., August 14, 1901.

The Honourable

The President of the Pri\-y Council,
Ottawa, Canada.

With reference to my letter of the 9th instant, No. 683, I have the honour to trans-
mit to you the following newspaper cuttings for your information : —

Date.

Paper.

Subject.

August 13. '01..

13, '01..

14. '01..

The Times.. .

Letter of Sir Edward Sassoon on Cables and the Colonial Office.
Debate in the House of Commons on second reading of Pacific Cable Bill .
Proceedings in Conmiittee on the above Bill.

J. G. COLMER,
For the High Conunissioner.

CORRESPONDEXCE OX SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 47

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

7 HiCIIMOXD TEHHAriC,

Whitehall, S.W., Auf,'ust 14, 1!H)1.
Governor Gencial of Canada.

I represent the Colonial Ottii-e on an inter-departniental eonmiittee to consider the
cable conimunicHtion of the Empire.

The evidence taken before that committee has been divided into two parts, that
which deals with the general subject and that which deals with the strategic part of the
question. The latter certainl_y will not be published, Init the former jjart will be sub-
mitted to the Treasury, who will exercise their discretion as to wliether it shall te
published or not. .Some part of it undoubtedly will be, as the committee was appointed
•at the instance of Sir Edward Sassoon in response to a motion in the House of Commons.

Mr. Mulock was one of the witnesse.s, and gave evidence of the intention of the
Canadian Go\ernment to lay a special cable between Canada and England for the use of
the Canadian people. "Will you let me know whether your ministers would ha\-e any
objection to that e\idence appearing in the blue-book, or whether the matter is still in
too premature a condition to make it desirable to give publicity to it I

ONSLOW.

From Fdinmry x.'.J, I'JOl, to Auyust 21; 1901.

ABSTRACT OF MINUTES OF PACIFIC CABLE MEETINGS, I TO IX

(Privatt and Ctnijidential.)
i( 1st Meetrmi.)

Ml!. Gleadowe's Rooms,

Treasury, S.W^ February 25, I'JOl.

Mr. C. T. Davis appointed tempoiary secretary.

Proposed visit of Mr. Peake (of M'essrs. Clark, Forde A Taylor) to the -sarious
: stations of the company, discussed.

Letters adrb-essed to the High Commissioner and Agents-General for the various
'Colonies introducing Mr. Peake and asking that the otiicer deputed in each to meet him
might be allowed to assist him in acquiring necessary land and otherwise.

Letter to Colonial Office to the same purport re Fiji and Fanning Island.

^^ ar Office and Colonial Office correspondence on the advisability of landing cable
under the guns of some fort, considered, and deprecated in the case of Escjuimalt as —

1. Lengthening cable.

2. Liability to interruption in shallow water in time of war.

3. Liability to interrujjtion in shallow water in time of peace.

In the case of Queensland and No. 3 sections, the suggestion was also deprecated as
invohing alteration in the contract ; letters to be sent to the Colonial Office accordingly.

Agreement of January 1 6 between New South Wales and Eastern Telegraph Coiii-
pany read, and resolved : —

1. That the agreement is prejudicial to the interest of the Pacific cable.

2. That it is desirable that a conference representing the governments concerned
should be held to discuss the effect of the agreement on the Pacific calile.

3. That this resolution be forwarderl to the Secretary of State for the Colonies for
.transmission to the go\ernments concerned.

Adjourned to March 4.

48 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

(iind Meeting.)

Mr. Glkadowe's Rooms,

TREA.SURV, S.W., March 18, 1901.

Mr. Hujih Latham appoiuted secretary.

Oftices secured at 24 Queen Anne's Gate, 8.W.

Letter from Clark, Ford it Taylor ri> payment of first instalment, to be sent to the
Treasury.

Western Branch of Bank of England to be askefl to act as bankers.

British companies to be asked whether they are prepared to send messages acros.s
Canada at J, rate

Letter from executors of William Greig re Fanning Island read, and copy sent to
engineers to be communicated to ^Ir. Peake with intimation to take care to recognize no
right of ownership on behalf of any person in the island. Existing correspondence on
the subject to be obtained from Colonial Office.

(ord Jleetinf/.)

Mr. Gleadowe's Rooms,

Treasury, «.W., March 25, 1901.

Telegram from 3Ir. Peake (v agreement uith Canadian Pacific Railway, for extend-
ing their land lines from ^'ictoria to Vancouver, considered and di-aft telegram con-
ditionally accepting same approved.

Appointment of solicitor considered and postponed. Terms of lease of offices at
Queen Anne's Gate approved.

Secretary instructed to furnish offices.

First payment to contractors, ^287,463, made.

(4th Meet iix/.)

24 Queen Anne's Gate,

London, S.W., April 29, 1901.

Treasury letter read as to advance of £290,000. Finance Committee, consisting of
chairman and one other member (in alphabetical rotation), appointed to meet half an
hour before each meeting to check accounts.

Letters from Mi'. Peake re Grappler's Creek were rearl and attention was called to
the fact that the estimated cost of clearing was high, and the engineers were advised
that the Board assumed that the clearing would be done by open contract.

Chairman was asked to approach Messrs. Hollams Sons, Coward i Hawkesley as
to their willingness to act as solicitors to the Board.

Resolved, that future meetings should be held on the first Monday in every month,
at i p.m.

Letter from 3Ir. ilulock as to appointment of Canadians to Canadian positions in
the cable system considered, and a- reply sent pointing out that the Board could not
pledge themselves to such arrangement, as it was important that the best possible men
should be in all cases selected, and the staff once appointed must be removable from
station to station in their own interests and for the due working of the cable.

Correspondence with Anglo-American Telegraph considered. Proclamation of
transference of telegraphs and telephones to Australian Commonwealth was read.

It was resolved that application would be made to the Post Office to send all
unrouted messages via the Pacific cable.

The question of omission of penalty clause from contract was raised and askerl t<v
investigate.

Telephone ordered.

CORKESPONDENUE OX SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLOXIAL CONCERX 49

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

(oth Meeting.)

24 Queen Axne's Gate.

London, S.AV.', May 20, 1901.

War Office correspondence re landing places. Cliairman's letter to Colonial Office
approved.

Engineer's recommendation as tn obtaining tenflers for instruments approved.

Sir Robert Herbert to be asked whethei- tlie Donald Cui-rie line would allow Mr.
Scott to place his services at the Board's disposal for the purpose of preparing plans of
the repairing ship.

Correspondence with (^.P.O re unrouted messages.

Letter from Anglo-American Telegraph Co. re rate to Vancouver.

Letter from Sir Francis Mowat /•« penalty clause.

Letter from Agent-Geneial for New Zealand, inclosing recommendation that the
Pacific cable should be taken via Honolulu.

(6th Meeting.)

24 QuEEX Anne's Gate,

London, S.W.' .June 30, 1901.

Appointment of statt' to stand o\er.

Letter from Sir Robert Herbert read re Mr. Scott's ser\4ce.

Resolved, that Mr. Scott be asked to prepare plans of repairing ship.

Question raised as to responsibility of contractors for repairs after completion being
reduced from 6 months to 30 days.

Dr. Muirhead's invention referred to engineers.

Selectif>n of Southport landing place at Queensland reported.

Letter from Under-Secretary of State re Defemje Committee.

Letter to G.P.O. /•■» unrouted messages.

Service messages considered, and Atlantic companies to be asked to carrv Pacific
cable's messages at half rates.

(7th Meeting.)

24 Queen Anne'.s Gate,

London, S.W., July 1, 1901.

Chaii-man asked to make inquiries as to salaries, duties, responsibilities and rela-
tions to, of managers to other Boards.

Agreement with Federal Goverment submitted to Board's solicitors,
letter from Sir G. O'Brien re ownership of Fanning Island.

(8th Mefiting.)

24 Queen Anne'.s Gate,

London, S.'W., July 26, 1901.

Sub-Committee appointed to inquire into the qualifications of candidates fur the
post of manager — procure, if necessary, additional candidates — and draw up regulations
foi- manager's conduct of business.

Plans of repairing ship considere<l and referred to Mr. Finch to report to sub-com-
mittee.

Proposed plans at Southport to be circulated amongst the members of the Board.

Selection of landing places at Norfolk Island and New Zealand reported.

Question in Parliament re progress of cable reporter!, and letter addressed to con-
tractors.

Chairman's evidence before Colonial Defence Committee reported.

Home and Federal Post Office correspondence as to unrouted messages considered.

Letter from Under-Secretary of State inclosing report on Fanning Islanrl.
77—4

50 COREESPOyDENCE OX SUBJECTS OF IXTERCOLONIAL COXCERX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

'2-i Queen Anne's Gate,

London, S.W., Auijust il, 1901.

Sub-conimittee's report considered and chairman aiithurizerl to appoint !Mr. Reynolds
inanau:er at a salary of £800 jier annum for three years, on his resigning liis other
directorsliips.

Sub-committee's approval of tenders for apparatus reported and confirmeil.

Engineers' preliminary report considered. Draft letters to the Canadian Pacific
Railway, Hon. J. G. Drake and Sir F. Darley, pointing out the importance of avoitling
unnecessary delay in acquiring land and erecting buildings, read and approved.

Report of survey and alterations in type and length of cable found necessary
between Australia and Norfolk Island.

Dr. Muirheads letter re invention to be referred to the manager.

Letter from engineers as to two repairing ships having at one time been contem-
plated.

Plans for repairing ship again ci)nsidei'ed, together with reports of ilr. Finch and
sub-committee, and approved, subject to provision if possible of a(lditi<ma! cabin, w.c.
and bath accommodation.

Letter from Treasury rx colonial payments.

Engineers instructed to obtain plans and estimates for cable machinery from the
Telegraph Construction and Maintenance Company.

24 Queen Anne's Gate,

London, S.W., August 30, 1901.
His Excellency

The Governor General of the Dominion of Canada.

I am instructed to inform you that the Pacific Cable Board has appointed Mr.
Charles Henry Reynolds, late Director General of Telegraphs in India, as its general
manager.

I am to add tliat Mr. Reynolds will enter on his duties in the course of the ensuing
month.

HUGH CHATHAM,

Secretary.

.)/('. (Jhainherlaiii Ui Lord Jliitto

Governor General

The Right Honourable

The Earl of Minto, G.C.M.G., etc., Ac.

Downing Street, September 19, 1901.

I have the honour to transmit to you, for the information of your ilinisters, copies
of the Pacific Cable Act, 1901, recently passed by the Parliament of the United
Kingdom.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

From Mr. CiurmJii'rhiin to Lord Minto.

London, November 21, 1901.

Referring to your telegram of November 2-5, terms of licenses still under discussion.
Copies will be sent to you as soon as possible.

J. CHAMBERLAIN,

COIIRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 51

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77

/■'nun Mr. ('havihi'rhxiii In Lord Minlo.

Downing Street, November 29, 1901.

With reference to my despatch No. 278, of September 19, forwarding copies of the
Pacific cable Act, 1901, I have the honour to transmit to you, to be hiid before your
Ministers, copy of a letter from the Treasury, inclosing copy of a minute detailing the
financial arrangements whicli the Lords Commissioners propose to make under tliat Act.

I shall be glafl to learn bv telegraph at your Ministers' early convenience, whetlier
they concur in the terms of the minute.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

Treasury Chambers, November 20, 1901.
Under-Secretary of State,
Colonial.

I am directed by the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury to tiansmit,
to be laid before Mr. Secretary Chamberlain, a copy of their minute of the -Jth instant,
detailing the financial arrangements proposed to be made under the Pacific Cable Act,
1901 (I'Edw. VII, c. 31).

As these arrangements affect the colonies which are concerned in the cable, I am to
request that copies of the minute niaj- be ti'ansmitted to the vai-ious colonial governments
in question, and that they may ,be invited to express formally their concurrence in the
proposed arrangements.

My Lords propose to defer the publication of the minute until such concurrence has
been notified to them through your department.

E. W. HAMILTON.

PACIFIC CABLE ACT, 1901.

TREASURY MINUTE, DATED NOVEMBER -5, 1901, RESPECTINC; FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS.

The CliHiicellor of the Exchequer calls attention of the Board to the Pacific Cable
Act, 1901 (1 Edw. VII, e. 31), wliich provides for the construction of the Pacific cable
at an estimated cost of £2,000,000.

As recited in the preamble of the Act, it has been arranged that any sums required
for —

(1) Repayment of money borrowed under the Act>

(2) Pa^^^lent of interest thereon at 3 per cent ; or

(3) Annual expenses of the cable, shall lie provided from receipts in connection with
the cable, so far as such receipt w-ill go, any deficit being ultimately met out of imperial
funds to the extent of .S-lSths, and out of the funds of Canada, New South Wales,
Queensland, Victoria and New Zealand to the extent of 13-18ths. Any profits arising
from the undertaking will be divided between the governments concerned in the same
proportions. Section 1 empowers the Treasury to issue from the consolidated fund a
sum not e.xceetling £2,000,000 to meet the requirements of the Pacific Cable Board for
defraying the cost of constructiim of the cable and for repaying any temporary loan
borrowed before the passing of the Act.

Section 2 emp(5wers the Treasury to borrow the amount of such issues, and provides
with regard to the sums so borrowed, (1) that interest at the rate of 3 per cent per
annum shall be paid thereon during the construction of the cable ; and (2) that after
construction the advances shall be repaid by means of terminable annuities calculated to
repay the sums borrowed, with interest at the rate of 3 per cent per annum, within such
period not exceeding .50 years as the Treasury may fix.

52 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Before tlie passing of the Act the Pacifif Cable Board had obtained teniporarj-
advances amounting to £294,000 to meet necessary expenditure, namely, £2,000
advanced from the civil contingencies fund and £292,00(> borrowed from the Bank of
England. An issue of £294,000 was made to the board from the consolidated fund
shortly after the Act became law to enable these temporary advances to be repaid, and
further issues amounting to £67,800 have since been made to pro^-ide for current
expenditure.

Directions have now to 1)6 given for borrowing the amount of these issues
(£361,800), and of the further issues which may be required.

The arrangements which the Chancellor of the Exche(iuer proposes for this purpose
are as follows.: —

(1.) Tlie National Debt Commissioners will be asked to make the advances out of
funds available in their hanfls for in^■estment, on the security of a terminable annuity to
be set up on the completion of the cable and to run for a period of fifty years.

(2.) During the construction of the cable the Treasury will submit to Parliament in
each financial year an estimate of the amount required to pay to the National Debt
Conmiissioners interest at the rate of 3 per cent per annum on all the sums advanced l)y
them up to the preceding 31st December, and also interest at that rate on all subsequent
advances so far as it may be expected to fall due. The amount charged on the vote in
respect of interest on advances during construction will, to the extent of 13-18ths, be
repayable liv the colonial governments.

CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN THE RIGHT HONOURABLE SIR WILFRID
LAURIER AND THE AUSTRALASIAN PREMIERS, DECEMBER 7 TO

20, 1901.

Ott.\wa, December 20, 1901.
The Right Hon. R. J. SlSDDON,

^^'ellingtrm, New Zealand.

I recei\ed with great pleasure your cablegram of the 9th instant, in answer to
mine of the 7th, suggesting a conference between the representatives of Australia, New
Zealand and Canada in regard to intercolonial trade matters. It is the hope of the
Canadian Government that a full discussion may result in Australasia and Canada
being brought into closer relations with each other.

Owing to the difficulty of arranging a conference of this nature, perhaps it would
be well not to limit the scope of the deliberations of such conference to any named
subjects, but to have it understood that anj' matters afteeting all or any two governments
might be brought forward. At the same time it would be convenient if, in advance of
the meeting, the respective governments were to intimate to each other some of the
subjects proposed for discussion. In that view I submit the following questions : —

(1) Closer trade relations.

(2) Improvement of the mail service via Canada between Great Britain and
Australasia.

(3) Improvement of transportation facilities.

(a.) By the establishment of a first-class line of passenger steamers between
Australasia and Vancouver (Canada).

(b.) By the establishment of a line of steamers (ehiefiy for cargo purposes)
between Australasian and Canadian ports on the Atlantic, stopping en route at
South Africa. ,

(4) Consideration of the eflfect of the Pacific cable scheme by the concession
granted by New South Wales to the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

I inclose copy of my cablegram to yourself and to the Premier of Australia, and
of the replies.

WILFRID LAURIER.

CORHESPONDEKCE OX SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN 53

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 77 ,

Ottawa, Decemhei- l'O, 1901.
The Hon. E. Barton,

IMelboui-ne, Australia.

I received with great pleasure your cablegram of the lltli instant, in answer to
mine of the 7th, suggesting a conference between the representatives of Australia, New
Zealand and Canada in regard to intercolonial trade matters. It is the hope of the
Canadian Government that a full discussion may result in Australasia and Canada being
bi-ought into closer relations with each other.

Owing to the tlitKi-ulty of arranging a conference of this nature, perhaps it would
be well not to limit the scope of the deliberations of such ct)nference to any named
subjects, but to have it understood that any matters aflecting all or any two governments
might be brought forward. At the same time it would be convenient if, in advance of
the meeting, the respective governments were to intimate to each other some of the
subjects proposed for discussion. In that view I submit the following questions : —

(1) Closer trade relations.

(2) improvement of the mail service via Canada between Great Britain and
Australasia.

(.3) Improvement of transptirtation facilities.

(a.) By the establishment of a first-class line of passenger steamers between
Australasia and Vancouver (Canada).

(h.) By the establishment of a line of steamers (cluetly for cargo purposes)
between Australasian and Canadian ports on the Atlantic, stopping en route at
South Africa.
(4) Considei'ation of the efl'ect of the Pacific cable scheme by the concession granted
by New South Wales to the Eastern Extension Telegraph Company.

I inclose copy of mj- cablegram to j'ourself and to the Premier of New Zealand,
and of the replies.

WILFRID LAURIER.

Ottawa, December 7, 1901.
Barton,

Melbourne.

Canadian Government propose a conference with representatives of Australia and
New Zealand Governments in London next June, or other convenient time, for consid-
eration of trade, postal, cable, transportation and any other intercolonial matters. Trust
your Government will co-operate.

LAURIER.

Ottawa, December 7, 1901.
Seddon,

Wellington.

Canadian Go\ernment propose a conference with representati^"es of Australia and
New Zealand Governments in London next June, or other convenient time, for con-
sideration of trade, postal, cable, transportation, and any other intercolonial matters.
Trust your Goverinuent will co-operate.

LAURIER.

Adelaide, December 11, 1901.
Laurier,
Ottawa.

Thanks for telegram. No otticial invitation to coronation as jet received, but if
this Government represented then will have pleasure co-operating proposed conference.

BARTON.

54 CORRESPONDENCE ON SUBJECTS OF INTERCOLONIAL CONCERN

Laueieb,
Ottawa.

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
Cheviot, New Zealand, December 9. lOOl.

Government New Zealand ^^•ill cheerfully co-operate, and colony will be represented
at conterence on intercolonial matters mentioned in your despatch of 7th December.

SEDDON.

1-2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81 A. 1902

ORDERS IN COUNCIL

[81]

With respect to the application made by Messrs. Ewing, Treadgold and
Barwick 1o divert water for mining purposes.

1. Order in Council dated 12th day of June, 1901.

2. Ordinance dated 12th day of June, 1901.

3. Order in Council dated 29th day of June, 1901.

4. Order in Council dated Vth day of December, 1901.

AT THE GOVERNMENT HOUSE AT OTTAWA,

The 12th day of June, 1901.
Present :
HIS EXCELLENCY THE GOVERNOE GENERAL IN COUNCIL.

Whereas application has been made by Malcolm H. Orr Ewing, of Malvern,
England, A. N. C. Treadgold, of London, England, and Walter Barwick, of Toronto,
Ontario, under date the 31st May, 1901, with regard to the establishment of hydraulic
works t("> supply water for the efficient working of auriferous deposits, now unworked
for the want of a sutficient water supply, in the Klondike District in the Yukon
Territory, and for other purposes mentioned in such application, hei'eto annexed ; and

Whereas the details of different schemes submitted have been considei-ed and
discussed ; and

Whereas the mining now carried on in the Klondike District is, because of the
inadequate supply of water necessarily confined to the washing of the richest gravel only,
comparatively small in area, thus leaving large tracts of gold-bearing gravels unworked ;
and from the information obtained from the Gold Commissioner of the Yukon Territory
and otliers it is believed that the riches of the Klondike District can only be properly
utilized by such a water supply as that which the before-mentioned applicants are
prepared to establish ;

Therefore the Governor General in Council is pleased to order and doth hereby
order that the said application by the said Malcolm H. Orr Ewing. A. N. C. Treadgold
and Walter Barwick, bearing date the 31st May, 1901, a copy of which is hereto
annexed, and which is hereby made a part of this Order in Council, shall be and the
same is hereby accepted ; and that the said parties shall be and are hereby granted all
and every of the powers, privileges, rights and franchises asked for and mentioned in
such application upon the terms and subject to the conditions and regulations therein
81—1

2 WATER FOR MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

set forth and also to the provisions of an Ordinance necessary to carry into effect the
provisions hereof, and wliicli said Ordinance the Governor General in Council is hereby
pleased t« declare his intention to enact.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

( TTAWA, Ont, May 31st, 1901.

To the Honourable

The Minister of the Interior.

Tlie applicants are prepared to undertake the establishment of hydraulic works
which will supply water to the auriferous deposits now without water in certain parts
of the Klondike" District, provided the following rights are granted to them subject to
the general condition that nothing contained in this grant shall interfere with the right
to water to which anv free miner is entitled on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker Creeks and
their tributaries for the working of his claim under the regulations now in force govern-
ing placer mining and the diversion of water in the Yukon Territory ;--

1. The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike River at any point or
points between its entry into the Yukon River and Flat Creek for the purpose of genera-
ting power with which to pump water to work the auriferous deposits in the district
(hereinafter termed •' The District ") comprising the beds, banks, valleys, slopes and
hills of the Klondike River, of Bonanza, Bear and Hunker Creeks and of their tribu-
taries.

Provided that licensed holders of mining locations situated on the Klondike River
shall be entitled as against the grantees to the use free from toll of a How o" water
suiEcient for working their claims but not exceeding in all three thousand fixe hundred
(3,500) miner's inches, equal to five thousand two hundred and fifty (5,2-JO) cubic feet
per minute.

Provided further, that in the event of the grantees interfering with the flow of the
Klondike River by the erection of dams or other obstructions or by diversion of its water
to such an extent as to prevent the passage of saw -logs or other timber down the stream,
then the grantees shall for holders of timber berths under license from the Dominion
Government, pro^^de slide.s and facilities free of charge for the transmission of such logs
and timber over such dams and obstructions and over the portion of the rivei affected
by such diversion of water.

2. The prior right subject to the provisoes contained in clause 1 to divert and take
■water from the Klondike River for distribution and use in The District, especially upon
the hills and benches.

3. The right on anv creek or tributary within The District to divert, take, im-
pound and store for mining purposes any water not used by any free miner for the work-
ing of his claim on such creek or tributary under the regulations now in force for placer
mining or respecting the diversion of water for mining purposes in the Yukon Territory.

4. The right at any point or points in the bed, banks, valley, slopes and hills of
the Klondike River between its mouth' and Flat Creek to construct and maintain dams,
crib-s, intakes, flumes and any other works necessary for the generation of power and the
right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground for the purpose
of such construction and maintenance.

Pro\ided that the grantees shall place in a separate dump for the use of the owners
of any mining ground entered upon by them in the exercise of this right, all gravel which
they may be obliged to move in such mining ground in consequence of the exercise of
such right.

5. The right to purchase any Crown lands required by the grantees for the purpo.ses
of their works at a price not exceeding ten dollais per acre, saving and reser\ing all
the timber, mines and minerals ujiou or under such lands.

WATER FOR MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY 3

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81

6. The right at any puiut or points in Tlie District to huild, maintain and operate
pumping stations, electrical works and reservoirs.

7. The right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground for
the purpose of constructing, laying and maintaining flumes, ditches and pipe lines for
conveying the grantees' water supply to any point within the district.

Provided that the grantees shall place in a separate dump for the use of the owners
of anv mining ground entered upon by them in the exercise of this right, all gravel
which they ma}- be obliged to move in such mining ground in consetjuence of the
exercise of such right.

8. The right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground
within the district and within the Indian River district for the purpose of constructing
and maintaining overhead or underground wires and any other structures for the trans-
mission of electricity for any purpose whatsoever throuchout the said districts, and the
right to levy and collect such tolls as may be approved by the Governor General in
Council for the use of electricity in the said districts.

Provided that the grantees shall place in a separate dump for the use of the owners
of anv mining ground entered upon by them in the exercise of this riglit, all gravel
which thev mav be obliged to move in such mining ground in consequence of the exercise
of such right.

9. The right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained to use, distribute and
dispose of the water delivered by the grantees within the district.

10. The right, subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output, to
enter upon, make entry for and work all mining locations now or hereafter abandoned
on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker Creeks and their tributaries.

11. The prior right, if mineral-bearing lodes or deposits of anv kind whatever be
discovered through the operations of the grantees upcui Crown lands, or upon lands or
locations owned or leased by the grantees within the district, to enter upon and purchase
locations embracing the discoveries in the manner prescribed bv the regulations govern-
ing mining in the Yukon Territory.

12. The right to take from Crown lands, to be designated by the Department
subject to the payment of Crown timber dues, all timber and materials needed for the
construction, maintenance and operation of the grantees' woi'ks.

I.3. The exclusive right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to con-
struct, lay, maintain, supply with water and operate bed-rock flumes, and anv other
flumes for supplying water in the district ; provided that every free miner shall have
the right of constructing flumes for the purpose of conveying to his claim the lawful
amount of water to which he is entitled under the regulations now in force for placer
mining in the Yukon Territory, and any water that he shall purchase from the grantees ;
and he .shall also have the right of ccmstructing flumes for the purpose of draining his
claim.

This grant is subject to the following conditions : —

1. The grantees shall before December 31, 1902, have expended upon the objects
of their enterprise at least the sum of two hundred and fifty thousand dollars (.$2-50,000).
Details of such expenditure shall be presented to the Governor in Ci)uncil. If the
grantees fail to comply \\'ith this condition the exclusive and prior rights granted to
them shall cease and be determined.

2. The grantees shall deliver within the district during the summer season of 1905,
not later than July 1, 190-5, a flow of one thousand (1,000) miner's inches, equal to
fifteen hundred (1,500) cubic feet per minute. Such flow shall be continuously main-
tained and be available during at least sixty (60) days'of such season, and each season
thereafter during the period for which this franchise is granted, as set forth in condition
7 hereof, and in default thereof the exclusive and prior rights of the grantees shall
cease and Ije determined. In case of unavoidable accident to the works of the grantees
they shall be entitled, without forfeiture, to a reasonable time for effecting repairs.

3. The gi'antees shall supply water to the owners of claims within the district sub-
ject to the regulations hereinafter contained. Should the above supply prove insufficient
to meet the applications of free miners, then the grantees mav at their option at anytime

81-lJ

4 WA rER FOR MIXIXU PURPOSES IX YUKCX TERRITORY

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

increase such supply and may be reijuired upon two years' notice, terminating with
August 31 in any year, to deliver within the district an additional ipiantitv not exceed-
ing five hundred (500) miner's inches of water, equal to seven hundred and fifty (750)
cubic feet per minute, provided that the grantees shall not be required to commence the
works for such additional quantity unless and until thev shall ha^e earned a n>'t profit
of at least ten per cent (10 p.c.) per annum for the three previous consecuti\e years upon
the capital stock of the company which they shall organize for carrying this grant into
effect. If the grantees fail to comply with such requirement the exclusive and prior
rights granted to them shall cease and be determined.

Pi'ovided, however, that if the grantees shall be delayed or their opei'ations interfered
with by floods, war ci\'il commotions, strikes, accidents to machinery or works, or by
the act of God or otlier causes over wliich the grantees have no control and so prevented
from complying with the conditions of this clause, thev shall be entitled to extensions of
tune e(iual to the periods of delay.

4. The grantees shall not be required to pay to the Crown or to the district or local
authorities any rentals, occupation rents, assessments or other dues in respect of any
lands except timber lands, or in respect of any tlumes, flrains, properties or profits other
than import customs duties, school taxes and a royalty on the gold mined in the mines
owned by them, or anj'^ tax or assessment which may be substituted for such royalty.

Provided that no other or higher royalty, or any tax or assessment which may be
substituted for such royalty, shall be imposed on any gold or silver mined from quartz
by the grantees, than that prescribed by the present regulations, nor shall it at any par-
ticular time be greater than the lowest royalty imposed on the output of gold and silver
from the quartz mines of other miners in the Yukon District.

Provided also that no other or higher royalty or any tax or assessment which may
be substituted for such royalty shall l)e imposed on any gold and silver mined from
placer mines by the grantees tlian that prescribed by the ju'esent regulations, nor shall
it at any particular time be greater than the lowest royalty imposed on the output of
gold and silver from the placer mines of other mine owners in the Yukon District.

5. The properties of the grantees shall be exempt from representation.

6. Proper powers shall be granted by ordinance to the territorial court to enable
the grantees to exercise the rights conferred upon them and to protect the interests of
private owners by compensation for any actual damage sustained by them in consequence
of the exercise of such rights.

7. The rights conferred upon the grantees shall extend for the period of thi4"ty
years, at the expiration of which period all exclusive and prior rights granted to them
shall cease and be determined, but the works and structures built by the grantees,
together with the lands, rights and easements which they shall have purchased and
acquired shall remain the grantees' private property.

8. The grantees shall have the right to assign the rights conferred upon them to
any company or companies or to any persons associated together for the purpose of
carrj-ing into effect the objects of the grant or any piart of them.

REGULATIONS.

"A." The grantees shall allow all free miners within the district to tail their
sluices, hydraulics, ground sluices and drains free of charge into the flumes and drains
of the grantees, yet not in such a way as to damage or obstruct the free working of the
flumes and drains of the grantees' by rocks, stones, boulders or otherwise.

" B.' The grantees shall compensate the owner of any mining claim or lands for
any damage which any such owner may sustain by reason of any of the grantees' works
breaking or being imperfect.

" C. " Any question of compensation arising under this grant shall be determined
judicially by the Gold Commissioner, subject to appeal to the territorial court of the
district, and the said court may upon special circumstances being shown make an order
for the taking of further evidence.

WATER FOR MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY 5

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81

" D." The grantees shall yield to the owners of claims entered upon by them for
the pur{)Ose of carrying out any of the works contemplated by this grant, any gold
which they may obtain in respect of anv gravel which may be moved by them in such
claims in consequence of the constructi(m of such works.

" E." Subject to the prcnisions hereinafter containefl, the owners of claims within
the district shall be entitled to purchase one-half of the watei' delivered in tlie district
by the grantees.

Any owner of a claim so desiring to purchase a supply of water from the grantees
shall between the first day of January and the tifteenth day of Marcli in each year
deliver to the grantees' agent at Dawson named for the purpose, a notice stating the
amount tif water lequired by the said ownei- for the purpose of working his claim during
the approaching season.

The grantees shall allot the amount of water to be distributed during the approach-
ing season among such owners, and the certificate of such allotment shall be filed by the
gi-antees in the office of the Gold Commissioner on or before the fifteenth day of April
in each year.

The grantees shall, in supplying water to claim owners applying for the same be
bound to observe a fair jjroportion between such owners. In determining what is such
fair proportion regard shall be had among other considerations to the size of the several
claims and dumps to be washed and to the most economical use of the water within the
district.

The Gold Commissioner shall have jurisdiction to hear aiid determine judicially all
matters in difference in regard to the grantees' allotment of such water as set forth in
the said certificates.

The grantees shall not be bound to construct supply pipes or flumes or other w<_ii-ks
leading to the claims of ajiplicants.

" F." The charge which the grantees shall be entitled to make for the use of such
water on each claim shall not exceed one dollar per miner's incli per hour.

MALCOLM H. ORR EWING,

Malvern, England.

A. N. C. TREADGOLD,

• London, England.

WALTER BARWICK,

Toronto.

AT THE 'government HOUSE AT OTTAWA,

TnK liiTH DAY OF June, 1901.
Present :
his excellency the (iovernor general in council.

Ohdinance.

Whereas by Order of the Governor in Council bearing date the twelfth daj- of June,
1901, certain powers, privileges, rights and franchises were granted to Malcolm H. Orr
Ewing, A. N. C. Treadgold and Walter Barwick, hereinafter called the grantees, upon
the terms and conditibns therein set forth ;

And whereas by the said Order in Council it was provided that the necessary
ordinance be passed, issued and enacted to carry into eftect the provisions of the Order
in Council, and it is expedient to pass this Ordinance ;

6 WATER FOR MIKING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Be it therefore enacted :

1. Whenever the grantees shall desire to construct, lay or maintain flumes, ditches
or pipe lines for conveying water, or to construct and maintain overhead or underground
wires, cables, conduits or other structures, including posts, piers or abutments for sus-
taining the cords, cables or wires of such lines for the transmission of electricity, such
grantees shall have power and authority, subject to the liabilities and restrictions
hereinafter expressed —

(ff) To cause such examination and surveys to be made and levels to be taken as
may be necessary to the selection of the most advantageous routes for the said works
and for such purposes by their oflicers, engineers, surveyors, agents and servants to enter
upon and take possession of the lands and waters of His Majesty and of any person, but
subject to liability for any damages which they shall do thereto.

(6) To receive, take and hold such grants and donations of real estate and other
property as shall be made to them, to aid in the construction, maintenance and accom-
modation of such works or any of them.

(c) To purchase, hold and take and by grants and donations to receive and take,
and by their otBcers, engineers, surveyors, agents and servants to enter or acquire any
easement upon or to take possession of and use, all such lands or other property as may
be necessary for the construction, maintenance and operation of the said works or any
of them and other accommodations neces.sary to accomplish the objects of the grantees,
but not until the compensation to be made therefor as agreed upon by the parties as
ascertained to be made as hereinafter prescribed shall have been paid to the owner or
owners thereof or deposited as hereinafter directed, or the consent of such owner or
owners to be given to enter into possession.

(d) To alienate, sell or otherwise dispose of any such lands or other property.

(e) To take and appropriate for the use of their works but not to alienate so much
of the wild lands of the Crown as ma}- be necessary for their said works and as may not
have been granted or sold, as also so much of the public beach or of the land covered
with the water of any lake, river or stream or of their respective beds as is necessary for
making and completing and using their said works.

(/) To lay, locate and lay out and to construct, maintain and operate the said
works or any of them and the grantees shall have the right to enter upon any lands by
their officers and agents without hindrance foi- the purpose of constructing said works
or any of them and for inspecting, operating and repairing the same.

(jr) To construct said works or any of them over, across, along or under any stream
of water, watercourse, road, highway or railroad which the route thereof shall intersect,
but so as not to interfere with the free use of the same and in such manner as to afford
security for life or property, and wherever the Gold Commissioner shall so direct, such
works or any of them may be constructed and laid along the right of way of any road
or highway,"but in all cases where any such. works shall be constructed across, upon or
along any road or highway thus intersected the grantees shall immediately upon the
construction of any such works restore said road or highway to its former state or in a
sufficient manner "not to have impaired its usefulness or injured the franchises of the
grantees.

(A) To purchase or acquire easements in, over and ujion lands, and the grantees
may change the line of their works or any of them whenever they shall so determine.

2. ^^'henever the grantees are unable to agree with the owner or owners for the
purchase of any real estate required for the construction of the said works, or any of
them, the grantees shall have the right to acquire an easement in and upon the said real
estate in the manner and by the special proceedings prescribed in this ordinance.

3. The grantees are hereby authorized to enter upon any land for the purpose of
examining and surveying the line of any such works and may acquire an easement in,
over and upon so much thereof as may be necessary for any such works.

4. The grantees shall deposit with the Clerk of the Territorial Court a description
of the rights and interests intended to be appropriated, and an easement in such land
shall belong to the grantees to use for the purpose specified, by making or tendering
payment as hereinafter pro^•ided.

WATER FOR. MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY 7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81

0. Tlie grantees may pui-chase any lands, right of way, easement or interest therein
from the owner of such lands, or in case the same is owned by a person insane or infant,
at the price to be agreed upt>n by the regularly constituted guardian of such insane per-
son or infant, if the same shall be approved by the said court ; and on such agreement
and approval the owner or guardian, as the case may be, shall convey the lands, ease-
ment or right of way upon the said j)ieniises so purchased to the grantees and the deed
when made shall be valid.

(). If the grantees shall not agree with the owner of the land or witli his guardian,
if the owner is incapable of contracting, touching the value of such lands, easement or
right or damages sustained by such owner, the grantees shall fieliver to such owner or
guardian a notice containing :

(n) A description of the land to be taken or of the powers intended to be exercised
with regard to any lands, and describing the lands ;

{h) A declaration of readiness to pay some certain sum or rent, as the case may be,
as compensation for such lands or for such damages ;

{d) The name of person repre.senting the grantees upon whom notice may be
served, resident in the town of Dawson.

7. If the owner or his guardian, in case such owner is incapable of contracting, i.s
'unknown, or is absent from the district, an application for service by advertisement

may be made to a judge of the Territorial Court.

8. The application for service by advertisement shall be accompanied hv the affi-
davit of an engineer in the employment of the grantees or of some othei' person in their
employment designated for that purpose, that the opposite party is unknown or is absent
from the district or that after diligent inquiry the person on whom the notice ought to
be served cannot be ascertained, and the judge shall order a notice as aforesaid to be
inserted three times in the course of one month in a newspaper publishefl in the district
or in such other manner as the judge shall direct.

9. If within ten days after the service of such notice or within one month after the
first publication thereof the opposite party does not give notice to the grantees that he
accepts the sum offered by them or does not give notice to them of the name of a per-
son whom he ajijioints as the arbitrator, the judge shall, on the application of the
grantees, appoint a jierson to be sole ai-bitrator for detei-mining the compensation to be
paid as aforesaid.

10. If the opposite jiarty, within the time aforesaid, give notice to the grantees of
the name of his arbitrator, then the two arbitrators shall jointly appoint a third arbi-
trator, or if they cannot agree upon a third arbitrator, the judge shall on the ajiiilication
of the party or the grantees after notice of at least six clear days ha\ing lieen gi\en to
the other party, apjioint a third arbitrator.

11. The arbitrators, or the sole arbitrator, as the case may be, shall be sworn
before a justice of the peace for the district faithfully and impartially to perform the
duties of their or his office, and shall proceed to ascertain such compensation in such
way as they or he, or the majority of them, deem be.st, and the award of such arbitra-
tors, or any two of them, or the sole arbitrator, shall be final and conclusive ; but no
such award shall be made, nor any otticial act be done by such majority except at a
meeting held at a time and place of which the other arbitrator has had at least two
clear days' notice, or to which some meeting at which the third arbitrator was present
had been adjourned ; and no notice to either of the parties shall be necessary, but each
party shall be held sufficiently notified through the arbitrator appointed by him, or
whose appiiintment he required.

12. If by an award of the arbitrators made under this ordinance the sum awarded
exceeds the sum offered bv the grantees, the costs of the arbitration shall be borne by
the grantees ; but if otherwise they shall be borne by the opposite party and be deducted
from the couipeiisaticm ; and in either case the amount of such costs, if not agreed upon,
may be taxed by the judge.

8 WATER FOU illXIXG PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

13. The arbitrators or a majority of them or the sole arbitrat<;)r may examine on
oath or solemn atiirmatiun the parties or such witnesses as appear befoi-e them or him
and may administer such oath or atKrmation.

14. Any party to an arbitration under this ordinance ma}', witliout leave or order,
obtain and issue out of the Territorial Court, upon praecipe, setting forth the name of
the witnesses to be snhpmnaed, the names of the arbitrators or the sole arbitrator and
the place and time of meeting, a subpoena commanding the attendance for examination
of any witnesses, and also the production of auv document to or before the arbitrators
or arbitrator, and at the time and place mentioned in such sabpana ; and the disobedi-
ence of such tnibpirna .shall be deemed a contempt of court and shall be punishable in
the same manner and to the like extent as in the case of (lubpLenas issued in a civil
case.

1-5. Tlie like fees shall be payable for such -subptrnas as in the case of subpienas
issued in civil eases, and the witness shall be entitled to the like conduct money.

16. The arbitrators shall take down in writing the evidence brought before them,
unless either party requires that it be taken by means of stenograiihy, in which case a
stenographer shall be named by the arbitrators or the sole arbitrator, unless the parties
agree upon one, and shall be sworn before the arbitrators or before any one of them or
before the sole arbitrator, before entering i:pon his duties : and the expense of such
stenographer, if not determined by agreement between the parties, shall be taxed by the
said court or judge and shall, in any case, form part of the costs of the aibitration ; and
after making their or his award the arbitrators or the sole arbitrator shall forthwith
deliver or transmit by registered letter, at the request (if either jiartv in writing, the
depositions, together with the exhibits referred to therein, and all papers connected
with the reference, except the award, to the Clerk of the Territorial Court to be filed
with the records of the said court.

17. A majority of the arbitrators, at the first meeting after their appointment, or
the sole arbitrator, shall fix a dav on or before which the award shall be made : and if
the same is not made on or before such day, or some other day to which the time for
making it has been prolonged, either by the consent of the parties or by resolution of
the arbitrators or sole arbitrator, then the sum offered by the grantees, as aforesaid,
shall be the compensation to be paid by the grantees.

18. If the sole arbitrator appointed by the judge, or any arbitrator appointed by
the two arbitrators, dies before the award has been made, or is disqualified, or refuses
or fails to act within a reasonable time, in the case of the sole arbitrator the judge,
upon the application of either party, and upon being satisfied by aflidavit or otherwise
of such deatli. disqualification, refusal or failure, may appoint another arbitrator in the
place of such sole arbitrator ; and in the ease of any arbitrator appointed by one of the
parties, the grantees and pai-ty respectively may each appoint an arbitrator in the place
of his arbitrator .so deceased or not acting : and in the case of the third arbitrator
appointed by the two arbitrators, the provisions of section 10 shall apply ; but no
recommencement or repetition of the previous proceedings shall be required in any case.

19. -\fter the making of such award the grantees shall pay to said clerk the
amount so assessed or tender the same to the party in whose favour the damages are
awarded or assessed, and on making payment or tender thereof in such manner it shall
be lawful for the grantees to hold the interest in said lands or material so appropriated
for the uses as aforesaid.

20. If there are divers or conflicting claimants to the money or any part of it to
be paid as compensation for the real estate taken, the said court may direct the money
to be paid into the court by the grantees until it can determine who is entitled to the
same, and shall direct to whom the same shall be paid and may in its discretion order a
reference to ascertain the facts on which .said determination and order are to be made.

21. If the grantees have reason to fear any claims or encumbrances, or if any
person to whom the compensation or annual rent or any part thereof is payable, refuses
to execute the proper convej-ance and guarantee, or if the person entitled to claim the
same cannot be found, or is unknown to the grantees, or if for any other reason the
grantees' deem it advisable, the grantees may pay such compensation in the office of the

WATER FOR AfmiNG PUBPOaEa /iV YUKON TERRITORY 9

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81

clerk (if the said court witli the interest thereon for six months, and may deliver to such
clerk an authentic copy of the conveyance or of the award or agreement, if there is no
conveyance ; and such award or agreement shall thereafter he deemed to be the title of
the grantees to the land therein mentioned.

22. A notice in such form and for such time as the court appoints shall be inserted
in a newspaper published in the district which shall state that the title of the grantees,
that is the conveyance, agreement or award is under this ordinance, and shall call upon
all persons entitled to the lands oi- any part thereof, or representing or being the hus-
bands of any persons so entitled, to file their claims to the compensation, or any part
thereof ; and all such claims shall be received and adjudicated upon by the court, and
the said proceeding shall forevei' bar all claims to tlie lands or any part thereof, includ-
ing dower, as well as all mortgages or encumbrances upon the same ; and the coui-t shall
make such order for the distribution, payment or investment of the compensation, and
for the securing of the rights of all persons interested, as to right and justice and to the
law appertains.

23. The costs of the proceedings, in whole or in part, including the proper allowance
to witnesses, shall be paid bj- the grantees or by any other person, as the court orders ;
and if such order of distribution is obtained in less than six months fi-om the payment
of the compensation into the court, the court shall direct a proportionate part of the
interest to be returned to the grantees, and if from any error, fault or neglect of the
grantees, it is not obtained until after the six months have expired, the court shall order
the grantees to pay to the proper claimants the interest for such further period as is
right.

24. The compensation for any lands which may be taken without the consent of
the proprietor, shall stand in the stead of such lands ; and any claim to or encumbrance
upon the said lands, or any portion thereof, shall, as against the grantees, be converted
into a claim to the compensation or to a like proportion thereof and the grantees shall
be responsible accordingly, whenever they have paid such comjiensation, or any part
thereof, to a person not entitled to receive the same, saving always their recourse against
such person.

25. The said court shall have power at any time to amend any defect qr informality
in any of the special proceedings authorized by this ordinance as may be necessary, or to
cause new parties to be added and to direct such further notice to be given to any party
in interest as it deems proper.

26. In any case where the notice given improperly describes the land or material
intended to be taken or the powers intended to be exercised with regard to any lands,
or if the grantees decide not to take the land or material or exercise the powei's men-
tioned in the notice they may abandon the notice and all proceedings thereunder, but
shall be liable to the person notified for all damages or costs incurred by him in conse-
quence of such notice, and abandonment — such costs to be taxed in the same manner as
costs after an award : and the grantees mav give to the same or any other person notice
for other land or material or for land and material otherwise described or of the inten-
tion to exercise other powers, notwithstanding the abandonment of the foi'mer notice.

27. The person offered oi- appointed as valuator or as sole arbitrator shall not be
disqualified because he is professionally employed by either party, or had previously
expressed an opinion as to the amount of compensation, or because he is related or of
kin to any of the grantees or to any shareholder of any company to which the grantees
may assign their rights, if he is not himself personally interested in the amount of com-
pensation ; and no cause of disqualification shall be urged against any arbitrator
appointed by the judge after his app<iintment, but the objection shall be made liefore
the appointment and its validity shall be summarily determined by the judge.

28. No cause of disqualification shall be urged against any arbitrator appointed by
the grantees or by the opposite party after the appointment of a third arbitrator : and
the validity or invalidity of any cause of disijualification urged against any such arbi-
trator before the ajipointment of a third ai'bitrator shall be summarily tletermined by
the judge, on the application of either party, after two clear days' notice to the other,
and if the cause is determined to be valid the appointment shall be null and void, and

10 WATER FOR MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY

1-2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the party offering the person so adjudged to be disquahfied shall be held not to have
appointed an arbitrator.

29. No award shall be invalidated by reason of any want of form or other tech-
nical objection, if the requirements of this ordinance have been substantially complied
with, and if the award states clearly the sum awarded, and the lands or other property,
right or thing for which such sum is to be the conipen.sation ; and the person to whom
the sum is to be paid need not be named in the award.

'2. Whenever the award exceeds four hundred dollars, any party to the arbitration
may within one month after receiving a written notice from any of the arbitrators or
the sole arbitrator, as the case may be, of the making of the award, appeal therefrom
upon any question of law or fact to the Territorial Court ; and upon the liearing of the
appeal the court shall, if the same is a question of fact, decide the same upon the evi-
dence taken before the arbitiators, as in a case of original jurisdiction.

3. Upon such appeal the practice and proceedings shall be subject to any general
rules or orders from time to time made by the Territorial Court in respect to such
appeals, which orders may, amongst other things, provide that any such appeal may be
heard and determined by a single judge.

4. The right of appeal hereby given shall not affect the existing law^ or practice in
the Territory as to setting aside awards.

30. Upon payment or legal tender of the compensation so awarded or agreed upon,
to the person entitled to receive the same, or upon the payment to the said clerk of the
amount of such compensation, in the manner herein mentioned, the award or agreement
shall vest in the grantees tlie power fortliwith to take possession of the lands, or to
exercise the right or to do the thing for which such compensation has been awarded or
agreed uptm ; and if any resistance or forcible opposition is made by any person to their
so doing, the judge may, on proof to his satisfaction of such award or agreement, issue
his warrant to the sheriff" of the district, or to a bailiff', as he deems most suitable, to
put down such resistance or opposition, and to put the grantees in possession ; and the
sheriff' or bailiff sliall take with him suiiicient assistance for such purpose and shall put
down such resistance or opposition and sliall put the grantees in possession.

31. Such warrant may also be granted by the judge, without such award or agree-
ment, on affidavit to his satisfaction that the immediate possession of the lands, or of
the power to do the thing mentioned in the notice, is necessaiy to carry on some part
of the work with which the grantees are ready forthwith to proceed.

32. The judge shall not grant any warrant under the next preceding section unless
ten days' previous notice of the time and place when and where the application for such
warrant is to be made has been served upon the owner of the land or the person
empowered to convey the land or interested in the land sought to be taken, or which
may suffer damage from the taking of materials sought to be taken, or the exercise of
powei-s sought to be exercised, or the doing of the thing sought to be done, by the
grantees, and unless the grantees give security to tlie judge's satisfaction by depositing
in a chartered bank designated by him, to the credit of the grantees, and such person
or party jointl}', of a sum larger than his estimate of the probable compensation, and
not less than fifty per cent above the amount mentioned in the notice served under
section 6.

33. The cost of any such application to, and of any such hearing before the judge,
shall be borne by the grantees unless the compensation awarded is not more than the
grantees had ofl'ered to pay : and no part of such deposit or of any interest thereon shall
be repaid, or paid to such grantees, or paid to such ownei' or party, without an order
from the judge, which he may make in accordance with the terms of the award.

34. The court or judge may make any order and direct the issue of any process
for the full carrying into effect of any of the provisions of this ordinance.

35. The costs of any proceedings in whole or in part shall be paid bv the grantees
or by any other person as the court or judge orders.

36. The grantees shall not be entitled to any minerals under any land purchased
by them unless the same have been expressly purchased ; and all such minerals.

WATER FOR MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY 11

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81

excepting as aforesaid, shall be deemed to be excepted out of the conveyance of such
lands, unless they have been expressly named therein and conveyed thereby.

37. The Order of the Governor in Council of the 12th day of June, 1901, herein-
before referred to and all rights, powers, privileges and franchises thereby created and
conferred are hereby granted, conftimed and declared to be existent, valid and effectual
to the same extent and in the same manner as if the several clauses therein were set
out and enacted as part of this ordinance.

38. In this ordinance, unless the context otherwise requires —

(a) The expression " grantees " means any company or companies to which the
grantees' rights have been or may be from time to time assigned.

(h) The expression " court " means the territorial court.

{d) The expression " lands " means the lands the acquiring, taking or using of
which is incident to the exercise of the powers given by this ordinance and includes real
property, mining locations, messuages, lands, tenements and hereditaments of any
tenure.

(e) The expression "owner " or " opposite part}' " when under the provisions of this
ordinance any notice is required to be given to the owner of any lands or when any act
is authorized or required to be done with the consent of the owner, means any person
who under the provisions of this ordinance would be enabled to sell and convey lands to
the grantees.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract //•((/« a Report of the Committee of the Honourahle the Privy Council, approved
by His ExceUeiicy on the 29th June, 1901.

On a memorandum dated .June 18, 1901, from the Minister of the Interior, sub-
mitting that by an Order in Council dated May 8, 1894, certain regulations were
established in regard to advertisements -ordered by the Departments, provision was made
that accounts for advertising required by the Outside Service were to be rendered, with
the orders and marked copies of the publications, to the King's Printer, and the adver-
tisements were to be measured by him, certified to and transmitted for payment in
accordance with the rules which obtain for advertisements issued at the seat of govern-
ment.

The Mini-ster states that the rules laid down in the Order in Council cannot apply
and were never intended to applj' to transactions in the Yukon Territory. The said
rules have not nor could they have been observed without serious delay in the adminis-
tration of matters in the Territory.

The minister therefore recommends that the regulations now in force in regard tO'
advertising shall not apply to advertisements ordered at Dawson and that for the pur-
poses of audit a certificate by the Comptroller of the Yukon Territory or other officer ■
by whom the account was examined and approval thereof by the Commissioner of the
Yukon Territory shall be deemed suflicient for accounts already paid and those which,
may be rendered in future.

The Committee submit the same for His Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clei'k of the Privy Council.

12 WATER FOR MINING PURPOSES IN YUKON TERRITORY

1-2 EDWARD VII.. A. •;902

Extract Jroma Report of the Committee of the Honourahlf the Privy Cvuncil, iqrprored
hy His Excellency on the 7th December, 1901.

On a report dated November 30, 1901, from the Minister of the Interior, submitting
with reference to the Order in Council of June 12, 1901, granting certain rights and
francliises to Messrs. Malcolm H. Orr Ewing, A. X. C. Ti-eadgold and Walter Barwick,
that the grantees have asked for certain amendments to tlie Order in Council.

The ISIinister submits the ftillowing amendments to the said order in council : —

Section 3 of said Order in Council is liereby amended by adding thereto the follow-
ing: In respect of Rock Creek the said right shall be a prior right up to 2,500 miner's
inches.

Section 10 of the said Order in Council is hereby rescinded and the following is sub-
stituted therefor ;

10. The right, subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output,
to obtain entrj- for and work all mining locations now or hereafter abandoned on
Bonanza, Bear and Hunker Creeks and their tributaries.

All such locations shall be deemed to be vested in the grantees on the first day
of Januarj-, 1902, but the grantees shall not receive the entry for any of such locations
until they have expended the sum of $250,000 as herein provided, nor shall thev work
any of the said locations until the provisions of condition 2, respecting the delivery of
two thousand (2,000) miner's inches of water, have been fulfilled. In default of the de-
livery of 2,000 miner's inches of water as provided in condition 2 the right of the
grantees to the said location shall forthwith cease and determine.

Condition 2 under section 13 of the said Order in Council, is herebv repealed and
the following substituted therefor : — The grantees shall deli\'er within the district dur-
ing the summer season of 1905, not later than July 1, 1905, a flow of water of 2,000
miner's inches, equal to 3,000 cubic feet per minute, for distribution along the line of a
conduit constructed from the mouth of Bonanza Valley to Grand Forks, at such an
elevation above the Bonanza Creek as will afford a pressure due to an effective head of
not less than 300 feet at any and every point throughout the length of such conduit.
Such flow shall be continuouslv maintained and beavailable during at least sixty days of such
season and each season thereafter during the period for which this franchise is granted,
as set forth in condition 7 hereof, and in default thereof the exclusi^ e and prior rights
of the grantees shall cease and be determined. In case of unavoidable accident to the
works of the grantees they shall be entitled without forfeiture to a reasonable time for
effecting repairs ; [irovided also that if the grantees shall be delayed or their operations
interfered with by floods, war, civil commotion, strikes, accidents to machinery or works,
or bv the act of God or other causes over which the grantees have no control, and so
prevented from complying with the conditions of this clause, the}' shall be entitled to
extensions of time equal to the periods of delay.

Condition 3 of said section 1 3 is hereby repealed and the following substituted there-
for :—

3. The grantees shall supply watei' to the owners of claims within the district sub-
ject to the regulations hereinafter contained.

The following shall be inserted in tlie said Order in Council after said condition 3
as : —

3r(. At any time after December 31, 1905, if the grantees have complied with
the terms of condition 2, as above set forth, the Minister of the Interior may in respect
of any portion of the district, except those portions alreadj- by that date served by the
grantees' works, require the grantees to elect M'hether they will proceed with the con-
struction of works to furnish a reasonable supply of water for mining purposes foi' such
portion of the district or abandon in respect thereof their exclusive right to supply
water ; and if the grantees are not, within six calendar months from the receipt of the
notice of such requirement, prepared to proceed with the construction of works calcul-
ated to furnish a reasonable supply of water for such portion of the district, then the

WAT EH FOR MIXIXG PURPOHES IX YUKON TERRITORY 13

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81

exclusive right of the grantees in respect of such portion of district may be revoked and
determined by Order of the Governor in Council.

Regulation " F " in the said Order in Council is hereby repealed and the following
substituted therefor : —

" F." The charge which the grantees shall be entitled to make for the use of such
water on each placer claim shall not exceefl 25 cents per miner's inch per hour.

The following shall be added to the said Order in Council as Regulation " G " : —

" G." Whenever the grantees divert and take water on anv creek or tributary, any
ivee minev a hiimt tide working claims on such creek or tributary below any point at
which the grantees divert and take water on such creek or tributary may collectively
require the grantees to leave in such creek or tributary for use in working the claims of
such free miners the lawful amount of water naturally flowing in such creek or tributary
at the grantees' point of intake, as prescribed by clause 6 of the regulations for the
diversion of water in the Yukon Territory, bearing date the third of August, 1898.

The plans of the grantees' works shall be submitted to and approved bv the
Governor General in Council before the works are actually proceeded with.

The Committee submit the foregoing for His Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81a A. 1902

PARTIAL RETURN

[81«.]
To an Address of the House of Commons dated April 9, 1902, for : —

1. Copies of all Orders in Council, petitions, applications, telegrams, cor-
respondence, grants, contracts, reports, agreements, documents and communi-
cations in writing relating to or concerning the grant to or concesnon to A.
N". C. Treadgold and others, or to the Hydraulic Mining Syndicate, either
separately or associated with A. N. C. Treadgold, of any claims, rights and
privileges on Bonanza, Bear and Hunker Creeks, or their tributaries, or else-
where in the Yukon Territory.

2. A description and plan showing the situation, location, area and other
particulars of all the claims, rights and privileges so granted or conceeded
to the said A. N. C. Treadgold and others, or to the said Hydraulic Mining
Syndicate as aforesaid.

R. W. SCOTT,

Secretary of State.

PRIVY COUNCIL CANADA.

Extract from a I^ifpofi of the Coinmittee of the Honourable the Privy Council, approved

hy His Excellency April 21, 1902.

On a memorandum dated April 17, 1902, from the Minister of the Interior recom-
mending, in virtue of Clau.se 47 of the Dominion Lands Act as enacted by Section 5,
Chapter 1-5 of the Act .5.5-56 Victoria, and of Section 8 of the Yukon Territory Act as
that section was enacted by Section 2 of Chapter 11 of 62-63 Victoria, that Messrs.
Malcolm H. Orr-Ewiug, of Malvern, England, A. N. C. Treadgold, of London, England,
and Walter Barwick, of Toronto, Ontario, be granted the following rights, powers and
pri\'ileges : —

1. The sole right to divert and take water from the Klondike River at any point
or points between its entry into the Yukon River and Flat Creek for the purpose of
generating power with which to pump water to work the auriferous deposits in the Dis-
trict (hereinafter termed " The District ") comprising the beds, banks, valleys, slopes
and hills of the Klondike River, of Bonanza, Bear and Hunker Creeks and of their
tributaries.

Provided that if the right given by this section is not exercised within six years
from the date hereof it may be revoked by order of the Governor General in Council.

2 IBEADGGLD CONCESSIOX

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Provided that if any power is developed and rendered available by the grantees
under this section which they do not make use of, then the same shall be offered for
sale to the public, and the rates to be charged therefor shall be subject to the control of
the Governor General in Council.

Provided that licensed holders of mining locations situated on the Klondike Piiver
shall be entitled as against the grantees to the use of a flow of water sufficient for
working their claims but not exceeding in all three thousand five hundred (3,500)
miner's inches, equal to five thousand two hundred and fifty (•5,2-50) cubic feet per
minute.

Provided further that in the event of the grantees interfering with the flow of the
Klondike Kiver by the erection of dams or other obstructions or by diversion of its
water to such an extent as to prevent the passage of saw logs or other timber down the
stream, then the grantees shall for holders of timber berths under license from the
Dominion Government provide slides and facilities free of charge for the transmission of
such logs and timber over such dams and obstructions and over the portion of the river
affected by such diversion of water.

2. The prior right to divert and take water from the Klondike Eiver for distribu-
tion and use in the district, up to five thousand miner's inches.

3. The right to divert and use the water of Rock Creek subject to any grants
lawfully subsisting and subject to the right of free miners' bona fide working claims on
Rock Creek to the use of the water which they are entitled to under the regulations
now in force respecting the diversion of water in the Yukon Territory.

4. The right at any point or points in the bed, banks, valley, slopes and hills of the
Klondike River between its mouth and Flat Creek and of any creeks and tributaries
within the district to construct and maintain dams, cribs, intakes, flumes and any other
works necessary for the generation of power as well as for the diversion, distribution
and use of watei' and the right of entry upon and way through any lands and any
mining ground for the purjsose of such construction and maintenance.

Pro\'ided that tlie grantees shall place in a separate dump for the use of the owners
of any mining ground entered upon by them in the exercise of this right all gravel
which they may be obliged to move in sucli mining ground in consequence of the exercise
of such right.

5. The right to purchase any Crown lands required by the grantees for the pur-
poses of their works at a price not exceeding ten dollars per acre, sa\'ing and reserving
all the timber, mines and minerals ujwn or under such lands.

6. The right at any point or points in The District, to build, maintain and operate
pumping stations, electrical works and reservoirs.

7. The right of entry upon and way through any lands and any mining ground for
the purpose of constructing, laying and maintaining dams, reservoirs, flumes,' ditches and
pipe-lines for conveying the grantees' water supply to any point witliin the district.

Provided that the grantees shall place in a separate dump for the use of the owners
of any mining ground entered upon by them in the exercise of this right all gravel which
they may be obliged to move in such mining ground in consequence of the exercise of such
light.

S. Tlie right of entry upon and way tlu-ough any lands and any mining ground
within the district and within the Indian River district for the purpose of constructing
and maintaining overhead or underground wires and any other structures for the trans-
mission of electricity for any purpose whatsoever throughout the said districts and the
right to lew and collect such tolls as may be approved by the Go\ernor General in
Council for the use of electricity in the said districts.

Provided that the grantee shall place in a separate dump for the use of the owners
of any mining ground entered upon by them in the exercise of this right, all gravel
which they may be obliged to move in such mining ground in consequence of the exer-
cise of such right.

9. The right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contamed to use, distribute
and dispose of by sale or otherwise the water delivered by the grantees within The
District. No water -so delivered shall at any time be deemed to be part of the water

TREADGOLD CONCESSION 3

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 81a

naturallv tldwiiii; in any creek or tributary within The ])istri(-t but shall be aniljreniaiii
at all times and jilaees the property of the grantees.

10. The right subject to no payment except the royalty prescribed upon output to
make entry for and work any abandoned mining claim or claims on Bonanza, Bear and
Hunker Creeks, such right to be exercisable only when the grantees by the construction
of works in pursuance of this franchise are in a position to deliver water upon such
claim or claims for the working thereof.

11. The prior right, if mineral bearing lodes or deposits of any kind whatever be
discovered through the opei'ations of the grantees, upon lands or locations owned or
leased by the grantees within The District, to enter upon and purchase locations embracing
the discoveries in the manner prescribed by the regulations governing mining in the
Yukon Territory.

\i. The right to take from Crown Lands, to be designated by the department .sub-
ject to the payment of Crown timber dues, all timber and materials needed ior the con-
struction, maintenance and operation of the grantees' works.

13. The right, subject to the regulations hereinafter contained, to construct, lay,
maintain, supply with water and operate bed rock flumes, and any other flumes for
supplying water in The District.

14. The grantees shall not be required to pay to the Crown or to Tlie District or
local authorities any rentals, occupation rents, assessments or other dues in respect of
any lands except timber lands, or in respect of any flumes, drains, properties or profits
other than import Customs duties, school taxes and a royalty on the gold mined in the
mines owned by them or any tax or assessment which may be substituted for such
royalty.

Provided that no other (ir higher royalty, or any tax or assessment which may be
substituted for such royalty, shall be imposed on any gold or silver mined from quartz
by the grantees, than that prescribed by the present regulations, nor shall it at any
particular time be greater than the lowest royalty imposed on the output of golrl and
silver from the quartz mines of other mine owners in the Yukon District.

Provided also, that no other or higher royalty or any ta.x or assessment which may
be substituted for such royalty shall be imposed on any gold and silver mined iwnn placer
mines by the grantees than that prescribed by the present regulations, noi- shall it at
any particular time be greater than the lowest royalty imposed on the output of gold
and silver from the placer mines of other mine owners in the Yukon Disti'ict.

The properties of the grantees shall be exempt from representation.

The rights conferred upon the grantees shall extend for the period of thirty years,
at the expiration of which period all exclusive and prior rights granted to them shall
cease and be determined, but the works and structures bwilt b}' the grantees together
with the lands, rights and easements which they shall have purchased or acquired shall
remain the grantees' pri\ate property.

The grantees shall have the right to assign any of the rights conferred upon them
to any company or companies or to any persons associated together for the purpose of
carrying into effect the objects of the grant or any part of them.

REGULATIONS.

A. The grantees shall allow all free miners within the district to tail their sluices,
hydraulics, ground sluices and drains free of charge into the flumes and drains of the
grantees, yet not in such a way as to damage or obstruct the free working of the flumes
and drains of the grantees by rocks, stones, boulders or otherwise.

B. The grantees shall compensate the owner of any mining claim or lands for
any damage which any such owner may sustain by reason of any of the grantees' works
breaking or being imperfect.

C. Any question of compensation arising under this grant shall be determined
judicially by the Gold Commissioner, subject to appeal to the Territorial Court of the

4 TREADGOLD CONCESi>ION

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

district, and the said'court mav.'upon .special circumstances being shown, make an order
for the taking of further evidence.

D. The grantees shall yield to the owners of claims entered upon b_y them for the
purpose of carrying out any of the works contemplated by this grant, any gold which
they may obtain in respect of any gravel which may be moved by them in such claims
in consequence of the construction of such works.

The committee submit the same for His Excellencv's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privv Council.

Extract /W)»( a Repwt of tlif Committee of the Honmirable the Privy Council, approved
hy His Excellency on April 31, 1903.

On a memorandum dated April 17, 1902, from the Minister of the Interior, stating
that he has been in consultation with the Hont)urable James H. Ross, Commissioner of
the Yukon Territory, with regard to certain objections which have been raised to the
Orders in Council of June 12, 1901, June 29, 1901, and December 7, 1901, granting
Messrs. Malcolm H. Orr-Ewing, of Malvern, England, A. N. C. Treadgold, of London,
England, and Walter Barwick, of Toronto, Ontario, certain rights, powers and privileges
as set out in the above mentioned Orders in Council, and such objections have also
been the subject of consultation with the grantees.

The Minister recommends, as the result of the said consultations, with the assent
of the said grantees, that the Orders in Council cited above, be rescinded.

The Committee submit the foregoing for His Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Pri^v Council.

DOCUMENTS

RELATINa TO PAYMENTS

IN CONNECriON WITH

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSION OF 1903

PRINTED BY ORDER OF PARLIAMENT

OTTAWA

PRINTED BY S. E. DAWSON, PRINTER TO THE KING'S MOST

EXCELLENT MAJESTY

1902

2 EDWARD VII. SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83 A. 1902

RETURN

[83]
To au Address of the Senate, dated the 20th February, 1902, for copies of all
Orders in Council, documents, memorandums, or other papers, relating
to the transfer from the Federal to the Provincial control of public lands
allotted for education in Manitoba, or relating to the payment by this
Government to the Manitoba Government of any money, whether it be
on the capital or on the interest, derived from the sales of such lands ;
also, copies of all correspondence between the Government or any member
thereof, and the Government of Manitoba or any member thereof, or anv
other persons, up to this date, in connection with the above matters.

R. W. SCOTT,

Secretarv of State.

Cehtified Copii 'if K A''/)i>rt of a Vdiiimittfi- i,f th- H,,iw>ii-n\,lf tin- rrivi/ Camirif,
approved by His E.i-i-i'lli'iicij tlw Gorenmr (Jfufrnl in CniiucU, mi thp 7th ■Tiilii
188S.

The Committee (if the Privy Cmuicil have liail under eousideration a despatch dated
9th April, 188-3, from the Lieutenant Governor of iNLanitoba, advising that tlie sum of
eiglity thousand dollars be placed at the disposal of the province for the purposes of
education, and that this sum with that already advanced to be charged against the first
sale of School Lands in the Province.

The ^Ministers of Finance and of the Interior, to whom the despatch in C|uestion was
referred, report that by the Statute 41 Vic, cap. 1, the Governor in Council was
authorized to make an advance of a sum or sums not exceeding in the whole ten thousand
dollars in each of the three fiscal years, LS78-79, 1879-80, 1880-81, to the Province of
Manitoba in aid of the Public Schools in that Province, and of this sum it appears that
twenty thousand dollars have been paid and that the balance of ten thousand dollars is
now available for the purposes of the Act.

The Ministers further observe that without an Act of Parliament the Government
have no power to exceed the express words of the Statute, which limits the achance in
the whole to thirty thousand dollars.

The Committee concur in the above report, and they advise that a despatch founded
upon this minute when approved, be transmitted to the Lieutenant Goxernor of
Manitoba for the informatio.i of his Government.

JOHN J. McGEE.
8.3—1

2 MAyiTOBA SCHOOL LAXDH

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Ottawa, October 2.3, 1883.

My dear Mr. Powell, — On July 7 last an Order in Council was passed respecting
the advance asked for hx the Manitoba Government on account of school lands. I
know, of coui-se, that the purport of this order would, in the natural course of things, be
communicated to Lieutenant Governor Aikins by you. As the administration of the
school lands is in tliis department, pardon me if I ask you to Ise good enougli to write
me privately and let me know positively whether His Honour was notified or not. Of
course I have no doubt he wa.s.

A. M. BURGE8S,
Deputy Minister of Interior.

Certified L'ojry of a Report of a Committee of live Honourahle the Privy Council, ap-
proved hy His ExceUency the Governor General in Council on December IS, 188o.

On a report dated Xovemljer 30, 1883, tVora the Minister of Finance stating that he
lias had referred to him the report of the Sul>Committee of Council to whom was referred
the memorandum (with papers attached) from the Minister of Agriculture for the pro-
vince of Manitol^a, praving that a further advance maybe made to that province for
the purjioses of education.

The ilinister of Finance concurs in the report and recommendation of the suli-
committee that the sum uf fifteen thousand dollars per annum for each of the two years
next succeeding the last year of payment under 41 st Victoria, chap. 13, be advanced to
the province of Manitoba for the purposes of primary education, the moneys so ad\anced
to be charged against the sales of school lands, to l>e repaid with five per cent interest
out of the first sales thereof.

The Minister observes that under the Act above cited the sum of twenty thousand
dollars (820,000) has been ad\anced, being the sum of ten thousand dollars in each of
the fiscal years 1878-9 and 1879-80, and that no advance was made in the year 1880-81,
and he recommends that the sum of ten thousand dollars so authorized for 1880-81 be
advanced in addition to the amount recommended by the subcommittee upon legislative
authority being obtained for the above purposes at the approaching session of Parlia-
ment.

The committee concur in the foregoing recommendation and advise that the
Secretary of State be directed t« communicate the sulistance of this report, when ap-
proved, to the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba, and they respectfully submit the same
for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk, Privy Council.

The sub-committee to whom was referred the accompanying memorandum of the
Minister of Agriculture for the Pro\dnce of Manitoba (with the papers hereto attached),
praving that a further advance may be made to that province out of the sale of school
lands reserved for the purposes of education under ' The Dominion Lands Act ' (-15
Vic, cap. 23) have the honour to report that they have considered the subject-matter
referred to them and have had the advantage of hearing thereon Mr. LaRiviere, the
Minister from Manitoba, who has presented the matter for consideration, and they
humblv advise that the sum of fifteen thousand dollars per annum for each of the two
years next succeeding the last year of pavment under 41st Vic, cap. 13, be advanced
to the Province of Manitoba to aid in the purposes of primary education — the moneys
so advanced to be charged against the sales of school lands, to be repaid with five per
cent interest out of the first sales thereof, and that parliamentary authority for this
step be sought for at the approaching session of parliament.

A. CAMPBELL,

D. L. MACPHERSON,

J. A. CHAPLEAU.

Ottawa, November 27, 1883.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Ottawa, Febriuirv i', I •'^'^4.

The Riglit Honourable

Sir John A. Macdonald,
Ottawa.

I have the lioiiour to inclose you herewith a telegram from the Honourable the
Provincial .Secretary of Manitoba, containing a copy of a resolution adopted bj- the Board
of Education in reference to the lands set apart for etlucation in that pi-ovince and
would suggest, if tlie Pri\y Council positi\ely refuse to give the province the control of
those lands, that provision Ije made bj' which an advance of twenty-five thousand dollars
(."52.5,000) be made a\ ailable for each year to supplement the sum voted from the con.soli-
dated revenue of that i>rovince yearly for the support of education and that the same
extend o\er a period of three j'ears.

J. NORQUAY.

{Telegram.)

Ottawa, February 7, 1884.

To Honourable

JnO. NoECjUAV,

R. House, Winnipeg, jNIanitoba.

The Board of Education passed following resolution yesterday : ' That this board,
sensible of the peculiar difficulties surrounding the provision of educational advantages
for their children by the people of this province, particulrrly in the new and sparsely
settled districts, would urge upon the Government of the province the desirability of
obtaining from the Dominion Government a sufficiently large advance of money upon
the credit of the provincial school lands to lenable the educational wants of the province
to be adquately supplied at this stage of its history, when those wants are most pressing
and the ordinary sources of revenue are least available.'

A. M. SUTHERLAND.

Certified Copy of a Report of a Committee of the Honourable (he Privy Council,
approved by His Excellency tlw Governor General in Coutiril, o>i the 1st April,
1884.

The Committee of the Privy Council have given their best attention to the con-
sideration of the several questions affecting the welfare and progress of JIanitoba,
recently brought Ijefore Your Excellency in Council by the Government of that Province,
and they humbly submit their conclusions thereon as follows : —

1. The question of the enlargement of the Boundaries of Manitoba to the West
and North.

The boundaries of Manitoba were originally fixed at the instance of the delegates
from that Province who came to Ottawa in the year 1870 to adjust with the Govern-
ment of Canada the terms upon which Manitoba was to enter the Confederation of Her
Majesty's North American Provinces. The limits then agreed to embrace an area of
about 9,560,000 acres. In the year 1881 these limits were enlarged and territory added
to the West and North, making the total area of the Province 96,000,000 acres or
150,000 square miles.

In the same year the true Western boundary of Ontario was fixed as the Ea tern
limit of Manitoba, which may add lai'gely to the area of the Province.
8.3— U

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
The total areas of the other Provinces of the Dominion were, in 1882, as follows :

Pro\ince. Square Jliles. Acres.

Ontario

Quebec

New Brunswick

Xova Scotia

Prince Edward Island

Manitoba

British Columbia, including Vancotiver and other Islands.

North west Territory

Keewatin District

Islands in the Arctic Ocean .
Islands in Hudson's Bay

]oy.4iso

70,ij(i7.20ip

1!C,355

123,747.200

27,322

17.4.^t' o^o

21,731

13,!M)7.>4ii

2,13.<i

l,.3liri.lL'il

1.50,000

iie.OfW.OW

.S90,344

249,*<2i).ltin

1.868.000

1.195,.V20.i"Hi

30fl.O77

197,MW,"Mi

311.700

199.48S,uuu

23,40a

14,97B.000

3,40lj.542 2,180,180,880

The further enlargement now asked for by Manitoba would add abi.iit 180,000
stiiiare miles to the already large area of the Province, and would be \iewed with
disfavour as well by the old Pri>vinees as by the new districts of Assiniboia, Saskat-
chewan, Alberta and Athabasca, which have been created in the North-west Territories,
and which will ultimately become Provinces of the Dominion. It would largely add to
the expenses of the Government witliout increasing the resources of Manitoba,' already
pronounced by the Government of the Pro\-ince to be insufficient to meet its normal and
necessary expenditure.

The Committee, under these circumstances, humbly submit to Your Excellency
that it is inexpedient to alter the boundaries of the Province as prayed for. It lm\'ing,
however, been represented to them that the enlargement to the north is sought for by
Manitoba chiefly in connection with the desire of that Province to extend railway com-
munication to the waters of Hudson's Bay, the Committee recommend that the Govern-
ment of Manitoba be informed that Your Excellency's advisers will notify the two
existing companies who hold charters from the Canadian Parliament to" construct
railways between Manitoba and Hudson's Bay, that tlie public interests demand the
amalgamation of their companies, and that, if they will unite and make provisions satis-
factory to ^Manitoba for the early construction of the railway, and against poolin" or
amalgamating ^^•ith other railways, and against excessive freight charges, application
will be made to Parliament to convert the sale which it was intended to "have made to
those companies of six thf)usand four hundred (6,-K)0) acres per mile of railway within
the Province, at a dollar per acre, and twelve thousand eight hundred (12,800) acres
per mile outside the Province, at half a dollar per acre, into a free gift. Failing which.
Parliament will be asked to authorize the land to be given in the like ^ay to either one
of the said incorporated c(mipanies giving satisfactoiy as.surances of its "ability to con-
struct the railway : and, fading this last, then to any other company satisfactory to
^Manitoba ; and that every facility will be given to incorporate such last mentioned
company.

The Committee of the Privy Council furtlier advise that the Government of Mani-
toba be informed that the Dominion will undertake and carry out with due promptitude
an efficient examination into tlie question of the navigation of Huflsons Bay and Straits.

, 2. FiNAXCIAL.

The Legislature of ^lanitoba has, during its present session, passed the foUowini/
resolution, with the recitals which precede it : —

" That whereas, under the provisions of the British North America and subsequent
Act< of the Parliament of Canada, the Pi-ovinees of Ontarif) and Quebec were re]ie%efl

MAXITOI'.A SCHOOL LANDS 5

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

of debt amounting to •1?73,000,O.S,s.S+, tlu- Pn.viiu/e of Nova Scotia $10,531,530, the
Province of New Brunswick .■?8,17G,6f~!0 ;

" And wliereas, these debts were incurred b\' the several Pro\inces in iuipro\einents
of a local character necessary to them respectively;

" And whereas, they severally enjoy the advantages of these improsemeiits, the
cost of which was thereby made a free gift to them respectiA'ely b}* the Dominion ;

" And whereas, th.e allowance to each was made on their respective population —
that i>f Ontario on a population of 1,396,091, that of Quebec on a population of 1,111,56(5,
that of Nova Scotia on a population of 387,800, that of New Brunswick on a population
of 285,594 ;

" And \xhereas, ^lanitoba, on entering this Union, received from Canada, as an
offset to what was allowed the four mentioned Pro\inces, $550,4-16, her pojiulation
being only reckoned at 17,000 :

"And whereas, it is onlv fair and just that she should recei\'e consideration as her
piipulation increases, inasmuch as the resposibilitv of making local impro\'ements and
building \\\i her institutions, such as jails, court-houses, reformatories, asylums, roads,
Arc, devolve upon her Legislature :

" And whereas, settlement has proceeded uith unusual rapidity, thereby creating
necessities bej'ond the reach of her resources :

" And whereas, the fact of the inadequacj' of her re\einie has been admitted by the
1 iiMiiinion to the extent that increases have been made from time to time :

" And whereas, no settled basis has been provided under which the Province can
reckon on a self-adjusting increase, in proportion to her population, other than that of
80 cents a head, which is entirely inadequate to meet her growing requirements ;

" And whereas, it is in the interest of the Province that she should not be subjectecl
to the humiliation of depending upon the intermittent increase from time to time
made to her. but she should be placed in a position by which her future would be
assured ;

" And whereas, in the opinion of this Hou e,, the credit allowed the Province cor-
responding to the relief aff(jrded the other Pro\inces .should be adjusted from time to
time, and that she should be paid at the rate of 5 per cent per annum on the amount of
credit that she would be entitled to on her population as ascertained by each decennial
census, or by such comjautation as may be agreed upon ;

"Be it therefore resolved, that an humble address be passed bj- thi.s Hou.se, praying
His Excellency the Governor General to cause such inquiries to be made into the financial
relations of this Province with the Dominion, and to cause such action to be taken
as will ensure to the Province such revenue as will correspond to her growing-
necessities."

The Committee of the Privj- Council humbly advise that the request contained in
this resolution be complied with, and that the inipiiry be conducted by such members of
the Pri\v Council as Your Excellency may select for that purpose. In the meantime,
the Connuittee agree that the rapid increase in the [lopulation of Manitoba has rendered
the stated deceiniial revision of the sum granted under 33 Victoria, chapter 3, to that
Province foi- the support of its Government and Legislature, insufficient. A more frequent
rexision would, in the opinion of the Committee, be expedient, and they advise that a
<|uinquennial census of the Province of Manitoba be taken hereafter, re -koning the first
five years from September, 1881, and that between the future takings of the census
approximate estimate should be made at evenly divided periods, so that the sum granted
to the Province for the purposes above mentioned may be revised four times in each
decade, and in each instance readjusted according to population, until the number of
the inhaliitants shall ha\e i-eachefl four hundred thousand ; and they further advise that
the first of such approximate estimates be made on the first of September next,
when, if the jiopulation should be found to exceed one hundred and twenty thousand
(1'20,000), at which the grant in aid is nuw made, tlie first readjustment should take
place.

6 MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902
3. — School Lands.

These lauds forai the subject of a special trust, for which they were set apart
immetliatelT after the acquisition of the country.

The trust is one which, in the opinion of the Committee, consideiing its object and
character, the Dominion Government cannot, in good faith towards the settlers in
^lanitoba and in the other Pro^^nces which may be constituted out of the Xorth-west
Territories, part with or be relieved fi-om. And the Committee are unable to advise a
compliance with the request of the Government of Manitoba that these lands should he
conveyetl to the P^o^"ince.

The Committee desire to point out that in each of the fiscal vears 1878-79 and
1879-80 an advance of ten thousand dollars was made to the Province in aid of its
public schools, and that by a Bill now before Parliament provision is made for the
payment of " a further sum or sums of money not exceeding in the whole the sum of
thirty thousand dollai-s, Ijeing the sum of fifteen thousand dollai-s for each of the fiscal
years 1881-2 and 1882-3.

School lands wOl he otfered for sale at auction annually, after consultation with the
ProWncial Government as to the time of sale, tjuantitv and price. Under the provisions
of the law proceetls of these sales will be invested in Government securities, and the
interest received on account theref)f paid aunuaDv to the Government of the Prf)\-ince
for school pui-poses. It must be remembered, also, that in the year 1881 school
lands, to a considei-able extent, were advertised to be sold by auction, but at the
earnest solicitation of the Government of Manitoba the sale wa.s postponed, and the
best opportunity which had occurred of obtaining large prices therefor lost for some
veai-s.

4. — Crown Lands.

The following resolutions have recentlv Iseen passed bv the Legislature of Manitoba
in I'espect to the lands of the Dominion situated in that Pr()V"ince : —

•• ^\ hereas, by the tenns by which the Provinces of Canada. Nova Scotia, and New
Brunswick became confetlei^ated, it was enacted that the several Provinces of Ontario,
Quebec, Xova Scotia and Xew Brunswick should have the management and sale
of the public lands belonging to them respectively, and of the wood and timljer
thereon :

'■ And whereas, by the provisions of the Manitoba Act it was enacted that all the
ungranted or waste lands in the Province of ^Ianitol>a should he vestefl in the Crt>wn and
administered bv its Parliament of Canada for tlie purposes i;>f the Dominion :

'■And whereas, among the rights claimed bv the j>eople of Manitoba, before. they
consented to become confetlerate^l, vvas a demand that tlie public lands of the Pro
vince should he veste<l in the Legislatuie and administered for the use of the
Province.

"And whereas, it is claimed that the Province has a just and ei|uitable claim
thereto ;

" And whereas, repeated representations have since been made to the Government
of Canada, praying that the management and sale of public lands he vested in the
Legislatui-e for the use of the Province :

" And whei-eas, it is deeme^l by the House to be in the best interests of the
Province that the public lands Iving within its limits should be administei-ed by its
Legislatuiv :

" And whereas, it is further deeme<l in the intere.st of the Dominion that all the
Provinces of Canada should possess equal jurisdiction in all the matters of a local
nature :

" And whereas, a continuance of the tliscriminating policy pursue<l towai-ds Manitoba
is calculated to undermine the feeling of common intei-e.st that this Province should have
in buUding up the Dominion :

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS T

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

" And wliereas, lu) answer satist'actory to the Legislature of the Province lias been
received in reply to the demands as above mentioned, and in the opinion of this
House the rights of tlie people of the Province to obtain redress iu all matters of a
local nature, which are extended to the people of the other Provinces of Canada, are
denied to the people of Manitoba, and the resources derivable fi'om the sale of land in
Manitoba are appropriated by the Dominion, which, in other Provinces of the Union
are administered bv their se^•eral Legislatures, and the revenue arising tlierefroni inure
to the several Provinces respectively :

" Antl whereas, this Legislature views with alarm ■ the alienation from the Crown
of the public tlomain without provision being made for the future necessities of
Government in this Province, which will in the near future be obliged to resort to
direct taxation to support its institutions, and to prosecute improvements necessary
to the building up thereof, which state of affairs in other Provinces was obviated
largely by the revenues arising from Crown lands, and by liberal provisions made for
them on entering the Union.

" Be it therefore resolved, that an humble address be passed by this House, pray-
ing His Excellency the Governor' General to cause such enquiry to be made into the
relations of this Province with the Dominion, and such action to be taken in reference
thereto, as will place this Province in as favourable a position as regards her future
necessities as are the four Provinces confederated under the British North America
Act.

" And be it further resolved, that a memorandum of the case be preparefl and
transmitted to the .Secretary of 8tate for the Colonies, with an humble request that the
Manitoba Act may be so aiiiended as to place this Province of Manitoba on the same
status in the Dominium as the older Pro\inces in the Union."

Following, in this respect, the example of the United States, where all public lands
in new Territories remain the property of the nation, the Crown lands in Manitoba are
vested in Her Majesty as represented by the Government of the Dominion. They have
been freely granted in aid of the Canadian Pacific and other Railways, of Colonization
Companies, actual settlers, and other objects calculated to develop and augment its
population. In the older Provinces the lands which they owned at the time of
Confederation remained their property ; and, as regards the Province of Prince Edward
Island, which had no public lands, a' grant of !?800,000 was made to it in lieu of the
advantage which it would have had if it had owned any public lands. The step thus
taken in the case of Prince Edward Island was repeated in dealing, in 1882, with
Manitoba, and a sum of §900,000 oi- $45,000 a year, granted the Province in lieu of
public lands. The free homestead and pre-emption pcilicy of the Dominion Government
has been proclaimed throughout Europe, and carried out with advantage to Manitoba,
and the Committee are of opinion that the faith of the Dominion, as well as the best
interests of Manitoba, are pledged to its being permanently adhered to. Beyond this,
and how far it may be expedient to change the arrangement existing between Manitoba
and the Dominion^ in respect to the lands of the Dominion situated within the Province,
is one of those questions in\olving financial considerations which could be advantageously
inquired into in the manner contenqjlated by the' Legislature of Manitoba in the first of
the resolutions above referred to, in regard to the financial relations of the Proiiwce
with the Dominion.

The Committee advise that a despatch based on this report, if approved of by Your
Excellency, be transmitted to the Lieutenant-Governor of :\Ianitoba, for the information
of his Government.

All of which is I'espeetfully submitted.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk Privy Council.

8 MAXITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Certified Copy of a Report of a Commiltee of the Honourohle the Privy Council,
approved hy His Excellency the Governor General in Cmiucil, on the 20th May,
1S84. '

The Committee of the Privy Council have named a Sub-Committee to confer with
Hon. Mes.srs. Murray, Norquay, and Miller, duly accredited delegate.'* from the Legis-
lature of Manitoba, upon the subjects embraced in the' memorandum of instructions
gi\'en by the said Legislature of Manitoba to the delegates, as well a.s raanv other
matters affecting the Province. •

The 8ub-connnittee, after having very fully discussed witii the delegates all thi^
points embraced in the said memorandum and the other matters referred to, report as
follows : —

That following the order of the memorandum of instructions the delegates urged
with great earnestness : —

L "The right of the Province to the control, management and sale of tlie public
lands within its limits, for the_ public uses thereof, and the mines, minerals, wood and
timber thereon, or an equi\alent therefor, and to receive from the ]!)omini()n Govern-
ment payment iov the lands already disposed of by them within the Province, less cost
of surveys and management," and they, the Sub-committee, ha\'ing given to all the ^iews
advanced by the delegates in sujiport of this claim the fullest consideration, and with
exery desire to meet their wishes as far as possible in the general interests of the I)omin-
ion, cannot advise the Council to recommend to Parliament to grant this request.

The lauds of Manitoba hold a very different position in relation to the Dominion
Govei-nment fi'om the lands of the othei' provinces. Shortly after the union of the
old pio\inces, the Government formed from that union purchased at a large price in cash,
all the rights, title and interest of the Hudson's Bay Company, in and to the territory
out of which the province of JIanitoba has been formed, it incurred further a very large
expenditure to obtain and hold this territory in peaceable possession, and at a still
further cost which is continuous and jierpetual is extinguishing Indian titles and main-
taining the Indians so that the Diiminion Government has a \"erv large pecuniary inter-
est in the soil, which does not exist in respect to any other of the confederateil proxinces.

The purpose expressed in the memorandum of instructions for which the lands are
sought, 'is that they may be applied to the public uses of Manitoba.'

This purjiose seems to be most fully met by the Federal Government alre.ulv, viz.:
in providing railway communication to and through Manitoba, in aiding the settlement
of vacant lauds, and in public works of utility to the pio\ince.

It was urged by the delegates that the Canadian Pacific Railway is being con-
structed in fulfilment of the terms of union with British Columbia, and not in the inter-
ests of Manitoba and the North-west. The Sub-committee, however, maintain that
desirable as it may be to have railway connection with that province. Parliament would
not have gone beyond the original proj)ositiou of a wagon road, had not the Dominion
Government been the owner by purchase of a large territory which would be made
accessible and valuable by railway, andlargely contributory to the cost of so great an
undertaking, .\ccompanying the i)rojiositi(in to construct a railway was the declaration
that the lands of the North-west would bear a considerable prop<:)rtion of the cost, and
from time to time large subsidies of land were offered to any company that would under-
take the work. In 1880 Parliament solemnly set aside one hundred million acres of
those lands towards meeting the cost of the work and, in 1881, contracted with the
Canadian Pacific Railway Company to hand over certain portions of constructed road
together with twenty-fi\e millions of dollars in cash, and grant twenty-five million acres
of land for the completion of the line. It was not to he expected that the lands could
be made available to meet a cash expenditure, until some time after railway connection
was had with and through them, and, therefore, the expenditure in construction and in
cash subsidy may he regarded as an advance to be repaid from the lands. This cash
expenditure or advance, when existing contracts are completed, may be stated as
follows :

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS 9

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Cash expenditm-e tVoin Callendai- to Port Artliui-, say sulisidy. •■^10,000,000

Port Arthur to Red River fonstruction " ." . in.OOO.OOO

Pembina Branch, (.-onstiuction 1,500,000

Wiiini|ie^ and Western Boundary of Provinee, subsidy 2,150,000

Total eash exjienditure SL'S,r;50,000

by tile Douiinion Governnient to make eonneetion w itii ami throuuii the ]irovince of
Manitoba.

The Dominion Government has also set apart, at .greatly reduced price.s, lands t«
aid the construction of other roads in Manitoba and the Territories, and jjiven free of
cost large acreage in aid of a line to Hudson's Bay, so that the Dominion Government
is, as stated, using the 'public lands of Manitoba for the benefit thereof.' Moreover,
it sh<juld not be forgotton that it has provided in the Act of 1881 for an annual eash
payment of $45,000, wiiich was then accepted in lieu of public lands. Other consider-
ations of vital import to the province of Manitoba have much weight with vour sub-
committee. The success of all the undertakings by the Dominion Go^■ernment in and
for the North-west, depends largely upon the settlement of the lands. Combined with
a great expenditure in organizing and maintaining ;^i immigration ser\"ice abroad anfl
at home. Parliament pledged its faith to the world that a large porti<in of those lands
should be set apart for free homesteafls to all coming settlers and another portion to be
held in trust for the education of their children. No transfer could therefore be made,
withf)ut exacting from the province the most ample securities that this ]iledged policy
shall be maintained ; hence in so fai- as the free lands extend there woulrl be no monetary
advantage to the province, whilst a transfer would most assuredh* seriously embarrass all
the costly immigration operations which the Dominion Govei-nment is making mainlv
in behalf of Manitoba and the Territories.

The gieat attraction which tlie Canadian Government no«' offers, the impressive
fact to the mind of the man contemplating emigration is that a well known and
recognized Government holds unfettered in its own hand the lands which it offers
free, and that that Government has its agencies and organizations for directing,
receiving, transporting and placing the immigrant upon the homestead which he may
select. And if the immigration operations of the Dominion, which invohe so large a
cost, are to ha\e continued success and to be of advantage to Manitoba and the Xorth-
^^'e.s■t Territories, your sub-committee deem it to be of the utmost importance that the
D( iminion Government shall retain and control the lands whicli it has proclaimed free to
all comers. Were thei'e other considerations of sufficient force to induce them to re-
commend their transfer to Manito\)a, and as a conseciuence and by pi'ecedent the
surrender to the Provinces to be created from the North-west Territory, all the lands
within their boundaries, then they would advise that the Provinces holding the lands
should conduct their own immigration operations at their own expense.

The attention ef the sub-committee has been directed to the procedure of the
Federal Government of the United States, in the organization of new States, and they
find that it rigidly retains the public lands of the State, except those it may appropriate
for specific purposes, allotting to the State only swamp lands, which, when di'ained,
become a source of profit.

In the Provinee of Manitoba there is a considerable area of similar lands, which,
when drained, are fit for settlement and very valuable.

It having been decided that the necessary works for drainage could be best
supervised by the local authorities, an agreement was made w th them to undertake
certain portions of it for a moiety of the lands reclaimed.

The sub-committee suljmit that it is expedient to recommend to Parliament a
modification of this arrangement, and that all lands in iSIanitoba, which can be shown
to the .satisfaction of the Dominion Government to be swamji lands, shall be transferred
to the Provincial Government and inure wholly to its benefit.

This would place Manitoba, in respect to public lands, in as favourable a position
as the States of the Union, irrespective of the smnual allowance of !f45,000, whilst in

10 MAXiTOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

public expentliture by the General Goverument directly and indirectly for her advantage,
Manitoba has been dealt with far more liberally than has any other Province, or than
any State of the Union by the Federal Government of the United States.

2. The delegates urged the transfer, to the Local Government, of the lands set
apart for education with a view to capitalize the sums realized from sales and apply the
interest accruing therefrom to supplement the annual grant of the Legislature in aid of
education.

Had your sub-committee decided to recommend the first proposition thev might
have regarded this somewhat dilJerently, but inasmuch as the retention of the general
lands involves the maintenance of a staff organization for their management, the
Committee deem that the school lands can by that organization be best cared for.

The Dominion Government has taken no action in relation to those lands without
full consultation with the local authorities, and pendinjr sales has sanctioned advances
of 860,000 on account for educational purposes.

Of past action Manitoba cannot complain, and with but one object common to both
Governments, and with the established practice of consultation, no just cause of com-
plaint is likely to occur. Under the provisions of the law the proceeds of all sales will
be invested in Goveniment securities, and the interest received on account thereof paid
annually to the Government of thft Province for school purposes. It is almost impossible
to conceive a mode of management more likely to be satisfactory to the people and
aft'ording greater security for a trust deliberately and \oluntarilv set apart bv the
Dominion Government as .sacred to the education of the children of settlers. Whilst
the Dominion Government has thus wisely made a generous provision in aid of general
education in the Province, the sub-committee submit that in view of the rapid increase
of its population the time has come when provisions mav be made to secure the mainte-
nance of a University capable of giving a proper traiiuug in the higher braiiches of
education, and to attain this end an allotment of land, not exceeiling one hundred and
fifty thousand acres of fair aveiage quality, should be selected bv the Dominion Govern-
ment and granted as an endowment to the Lniversitv of Manitoba, to be helrl in trust
for the purpose referred to upon some basis or scheme to be framed bv the University
and approved by the Government of the Dominion.

3, ■ The adjustment of the capital account of the Province decennially according to
population, the same to be computed now at 150,000 souls, and to be altered until it
corresponds to the amount allowed the Province of Ontario on that account.'

At the Confederation of the Provinces it was found advisable and necessary t<i
allow to each a capital account, because large expenditures involving debts had been
made by all the Provinces on works of a public character, such as Canals, Railways,
Harbours, Piers, Lights and Public Buildings, moA of which were transferred to the
Dominion Government.

It would have been manifestly unfair to have transferred the assets without pro-
viding for the debts which they created, and for which each Province was liable.

To meet this a rate per head of the population was adopted and found to meet the
case, as the debts of the Province were nearly in proportion to the population.

Subsequently upon the admission of other Provinces it was found that their debts
did not reach the same per capita allowance given to those first confederated ; but it
was held, that although the Pro\iuce had not made the expenditure, it was desirable to
give it the same allowance, the surplus, after covering indebtedness, to form a capital,
the interest of which would enable its Go\ernment to make such internal improvements
as were of pio\ incial and geueial benefit. Upon the organization of Manitoba a similar
course was pursued and the population estimated at 17.000. This was a small number
for a Province, and it mav be fair to assume that in ordinary circumstances the expenses
and responsibilities of goverinnent would not have been placed upon a population so
small. A per capita allowance, based on that population, did not give a sum sutiicient
to meet any considerable expenditure, and, in consequence, the Provincial Government
has drawn upon the capital sum, and the Dominion has, also, made expenditures within
the Province, which are held to be strictly local and which, in the other Provinces, were
borne out of pi-o's-ineial funds. The population of the Province having now largely in-

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS 11

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

creased it is desirable that the Province shall be placed, so far as practicable, in a position
to maintain the necessaiy local expenditure, and the sub-committee rccommenri that the
same per capita allowance as was made on a population of 17,000 be no\\ marie on
150,000, and that the capital sum therefrom Ix' charged with such aflvanees as havealrea<ly
been made from the former capital account, and such expenditures as the Dominion
Government has made within the Province of a strictly local character. To meet the
e.xpenditure »{ the present fiscal year, it is estimated that, in con.sequence of the con-
struction of a lunatic asylum and other exceptional services, another advance from the
(jld capital account, tt) the extent of §150,000 will be necessarv, and the Committee
advi.se that, under the provision of the Act creating the Province, it be made and held
chargeable against the capital account or any readjustment thereof sanctioned by
Parliament.

4. ' The right of the province to charter lines of railway from any one point to
another within the province, except so far as the same has been limited by its Legislature
in the Extension Act of 1881.'

This question has no doubt arisen in consequence of the disallowance of certain Acts
of incoi'poration granted by the Legislature of ^Manitoba, which were held to conflict with
the spirit of Canadian polic}' as embodied in the Canadian Pacific I'ailway Act,
wiiich contains a clause preventing the Dominion Parliament authorizing the consti'uction
of any railway south of the Pacific line, and running from auv point at or near the
Canadian Pacific Railway, except such lines as shall run south-west, nor to within
fifteen miles of latitude 49. • Throughout the whole discussion upon the Pacific Railway,
both in and out of Parlianient, up to the ratification of the contract of 18S0, there was
no proposition received , with so great unanimity and approval, as that the railway
should not, at least for a time, whether constructed bv the government or a company,
be tapped by lines running into the United States, and its legitimate trafiic drawn to
that country instead of passing down to the seaboard over Canadian soil. Not only
was this held to be in the interest of the whole people, but it is safe to assert that
a company could not have been found to undertake the work without this guarantee.'

Whatever the provisions of the Canadian Pacific Railway Act are, the province of
Manitoba had in advance assented to, in accepting an extension of her boundaries and
an increase (jf area about tenfold, under an Act which provided ' that the said increased
limit and territory therebj- added to the province of Manitoba shall be subject to all
such provisions as may have been or shall hereafter be enacted respecting the Canadian
Pacific Railway and the lands to be "ranted in aid thereof.' Having accepted the
increased area upon the above conditions, and knowing the long a\owed policy of
Parliament to prevent the legitimate trade of the country and trafiic of the Canadian
Pacific Railway being diverted to the United States, the sub-committee consider that
no injustice will be done to the people of Manitoba by the exercise of such supervision
by the Dominion Government over the railway charters sought from the Dominion
Parliament or passed by the Legislatui-e of Manitoba, as will maintain this policy, and
the condition of the Canadian Pacific Railway Act, until the expiry of the time named
therein, or until the road is opened and trade established, when, it is believed it may
be repealed or mrxlified, without injustice and with the consent of the contracting parties.

5. ' That the grant of 80 cents a head be not limited to a population of four hund-
red thousand souls, but that the same be allowed the province until the maximum on
which the said grant is allowed the Province of Ontario be reached.'

The Act of Confederation places the per capita allowance upon the population given
to each province by the census of 1801, but in the case of Nova Scotia and New Bruns-
wick allows a decennial increase until aj)opulation of 400,000 he reached.

In the admission of Manitoba with a small population, it was provided that she
should have the same advantages and be placed upon terms of equality with those
two named older Provinces, One C)f which has now passed the maximum number. In
view of the fact that some considerable time must elapse before the maximum allowed
to Manitoba is reached, and that the question afl^ects all the provinces of the confeder-
ation, the sub-committee deem it more advisable to give attention to the means by
which aid can be given to the pro\ ince within the maximum number named in the Act.

12 HJAXITOHA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The increase of population in the province of Manitoba lias been exceptionally
rajiid, and would warrant a more frequent census than that named, and the sub-com-
mittee has to repeat that portion of the Order in Council of April 1, 188-t, beai-ing upon
this question and ' advise that a quin(iuennial census of the pro\ince of Manitoba he
taken hereafter reckoning from Septemljer, 1881, and between the future takings of the
census approximate estimates should be made at evenly divided periods, so that the sum
granted to the province for the purpose above mentioned may be revised four times in
each decade, and in each instance adjusted according to population until the number of
tlie inhabitants shall have reached 400,000, and they further advise that the first of
such apju-oximate estimates be made on the first of September next, when if the popula-
tion should be found to exceed 150,000, at which the grant in aid is now made, the first
readjustment should take place.'

6. ' The granting to the province extended railway facilities, notably the energetic
prosecution of the Manitoba and South-western, the Souris and Rocky Mountain and
the Manitoba and North-western Railways.'

The sub-committee has assured the delegates of the earnest desire of the Dominion
Go\ernment to extend railway facilities in Manitoba and the North-west in any direction
that will not conflict with the general interest and the engagements of the Government,
and has cited in proof thereof the extraordinaiy expenditure made upon the main Pacific
line, and the grants of land hereinbefore referred tt), together with a grant already made
of Slttt),000 to commence explorations in Hudson's Bay, to test the practicability of a
commercial outlet in that direction for the products of the North-west.

7. ' Tf) call the attention of the Government to the prejudicial effects of the tariff on
the Pro^^nce of Manitoba.'

In the discussion on this point the sub-committee is of opinion that it was not
shown that the effect of the tariff is prejudicial to the province, or that it operates
exceptional!}- unless perhaps in some few cases, which it is believed will be remedied,
as means of transport from the other provinces improve or which if not so remedied mav
be adjusted on the recommendation of the Ministers of Finance and Customs.

8. ' Extension of boundaries.'

The sub-committee having given to this proposal anfl the ai-guments advanced by
the delegates the most careful considerati<m, cannot recommend any change or modifica-
tion of the views entertained by Council, as set forth in the Order in Council of date of
April 1 last, and which for convenience of reference mav be here repeated.

' The boundaries of Manitoba were originally fixed at the instance of the delegates
from that province who came to Ottawa in 1870 to adjust, with the Go\ernment of
Canada, the terms upon which ilanitoba was to enter the Confederation of Her Majesty '.s
North American Provinces.

The limits then agreed to embraced an area of about 9,500,000 acres. In the year
1881 these limits were enlarged and territory added to the west and north, making the
total area of the province 96,000,000 acres, or 150,000 square miles.

In the same year the true western boundary of Ontario was fixed as the eastern
limit of Manitoba, which may add largely to the area of the province.

The total areas of the other Provinces of the Dominion were, in 1882, as follows : —
Province Square Mile.*. Acres.

Ontario 109,480 70,067,200

Quebec 1 93,355 1 23,747,200

New Brunswick 27,322 17,486,080

Nova Scotia 21,731 13,907,840

Prince Edward Island 2,133 1,365,120

Manitoba 150,000 96,000,000

British Columbia (including Vancou\er

and other Islands) 390,344 249,820,160

North-west Territory 1,868,000 1,195,520,000

Keewatin District ." 309,077 197,809,280

Islands in Arctic Ocean 31 1,700 199,488,000

Hudson's Bay 23,400 14,976,000

Total 3,406^542 2,180,186,880

MAXlTO/iA SCHOOL LAXDS 13

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

The furtlier enlargement nuw a.sked tor by Manitoba would add about l.^SOjOUO
.si|uare miles to the already large area of the Pro\ince, and would be viewed with dis-
fa^■our as well by the old Provinces as by the new districts of Assiniboia, Saskatchewan,
Alberta and Athabasca, which have been created in the North-west Territt)ries, and
which will ultimately become Provinces of the Dominion. It would laruelv add to the
e.Kpense of the Government, without increa.sing the resources of Manitoba, already pro-
nounced by the Government of the Province to be insufficient to meet its normal ami
necessary expenditure.

The Committee, vuider these circumstances, humbly submit to Your Excellency,
that it is inexpedient to alter the boundaries of the Provinces as prayed for.

It havinji, however, been represented to them that the enlari;:ement to the North is
sought for by Manitoba chieti}- in connection with the desire of that Province to extend
railway conmiunication to the waters of Hudson's Bay, the Committee recommend that
the Government of Manitoba be informed that Your .Excellency's advisers will notify the
two existing companies who hold charters from the Cancitlian Parliament to construct
railways between Manitoba and Hudson's Bay, that the public interests demand the
amalgamation of their companies, and that if they will unite and make provisions satis-
factory to Manitoba, for the early construction of the railway, and against pooling or
amalgamating with other railways, and against excessive freight charges, application
will be made to Parliament to convert the sale which it was intended to have made to
those companies of six tliousand four hundred (6,400) acres per mile of railway within
the Pro\ince at a dollar per acre, and twelve thousand eight hundred (12,800) acres per
mile outside the Province at half a dollar per acre into a free gift.

Failing which. Parliament will be asked to auth(jrize the land to be given in the
like way to either one of the said incorporated companies, giving satisfactory assurances
of its ability to construct the railway ; and failing this last, then to any other company
satisfactory to Manitoba, and that every facility will be given to incorporate such last
mentioned company.' Pai-liament having given the necessary authority to the Dominion
Government to carry into eJiect the foregoing cited offer of free lands in aid of the
Hudson's Bay Railway, your sub-committee is of opinion that the said Order in Council
of April 1 should, in respect to the e.xtension of bounflaries, be satisfactoi-y to the
Legislature of Manitoba.

In the consideration of the various proposals submitted and claims advanced by the
delegates on behalf of the Province of Manitoba, your sub-connnittee have, consistent
with federal obligations and the interest of the Dominion, felt the deepest anxiety to
further the welfare and progress of that Province, and in recommending to His Excel-
lency the Governor General in Council, for submission to Parliament, the very liberal
propositions embodied in this report, only do so in the full anticipation that they will
be satisfactory to the people of Manitoba, and upon the condition that they will be
accepted by the Legislature of that Province as a settlement of the claims so earnestly
urged by the delegation charged with their submission at Ottawa.

The Conmiittee of the Privy Council adopt the foregoing report of the sub-committee
and the several recommendations made therein, and they submit the same for Your
Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. MtGEE,

Clerk Privy Council.

Ottawa, N(j\ ember 28, 1883.

T'l Ihr Majrstys Mii.-st lloiitiaraljh- Privij t'oancU. :

The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture has the honour to submit on behalf of
the Government of the Province of Manitoba that, after the organization of the Province
a system of separate schools was adopted by which Protestant and Roman Catholic
citizens alike were afforded equal facilities for the cultivation of their minds and the
advancement of their moral and economical conditions.

14 ilAXITOBA SCHOOL LASDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

That an organization known as the Board of Education was establi-shed comprised
of twentv-one members, twelve of whom are selected from amongst the most prominent
Protestant citizens and nine from those embracing the Catholic faith.

That His Lordship the Bishop of Rupert's Land is tlie President of the said Board,
and His Grace the Most Reverend Archbishop of Saint Boniface is the Vice-President.

That there are twt) Superintendents — one a Protestant, J. B. Somersett, Es(j., of
Winnipeg, and the other a Roman Catholic, Thomas Alfred Birmer, Esq., of Saint
Boniface.

That the Board is di\ided into two sections, one called the Protestant and the other
the Catholic section, each exercising full control in the selection of school books and the
management of schools submitted to their jurisdiction.

That the Government grant, after deducting the joint expenses of the Board, is
divided between each section on a pro rata basis of the school population in the several
districts between the ages of fi\e and seventeen years, an allowance of SI 00 being
granted to each school for a scholastic year comprising two hundred days, and the
balance of the appropriation distributed on a pro rata basis of attendance.

That the svstem now in operation for the last twelve years has borne forth excellent
fruits in moulding the minds of the youth of th-^ Province, and has been operated on the
strictest possible principles of economy, the members of the Board giving their services
gi-atuitously and the superintendents alone i-eceiving compensation for their labours.

That in accordance with the conditions of the Dominion Statutes two sections of
two hundred and fortv acres each have been reserved in each township for educational
purposes.

That without interfering with the disputed territorv our Province covers an area of
something over two thousand townships, from which should be deducted about three
hundred Iving under water, leading about seventeen hundred townships of terra firma,
each embracing an area of twelve hundred and eighty acres, or a total of two millions
five hundred and seventy-six thousand acres of school lands.

That deducting one hundred and seventv-six thousand acres as unfit for settlement,
there still remains two million acres of arable land which might be divided into five
classes as to (juality and value as follows : —

i— 500,000 acres at 81 .00 per acre • 8 500,000

1 —.500,000 " 2.00 " 1,000,000

i_500,000 '• 3.00 " 1,500,000

^._250.000 " 4.00 " 1.000,000

|.— 250,000 '^ 5.00 '• 1.250,000

Or a grand total of 8 5,250,000

the interest on whicli alijne at the rate of five per centum would give an annual revenue
of 8262,500.

That the estimate above given is certainly very low, as it represents an average
value of only 82.62i per acre, while contiguous lands in the several school districts have
realized a.s high as 810 to 820 per acre.

That the Government of the ProA"ince of Manitoba has vot«d for maintenance of
public schools in the various districts from 1871 to 1883, both years inclusive, the
following amounts :

1878 8 10,000

1879 18,000

1880 18,000

1881 21,000

1882 40,000

1883 45,000

1871

1872

1873 . ...

. . . . 8 6.000

7,000

1874

7.000

1875-6

1877

10.000

. . . . . 8.000

Total 8197,000

MA XI TO HA SCHOOL LANDS 15

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

That we have in aotual liberation tliree liunched schools, anrl l)efoie the end of tlie
year 1884 that nunibei- will l)e increased to 500 or 600 owing to the demands coming in
from every direction consequent upon the rapifl growth of the iiopulation through the
natural advantages possessed by the pro\ince and the wisdom of the Government's
immigration policy.

That on account of the peculiar .system of sur\eys adojited by tlie Goxcrnment,
which is very advantageous in ritlier jiarticulars, the houses of settlers are so fhstant fi-om
one another that several schools have to be established in each locality in order to make
the distance convenient for children attending them, and that in new districts the
schools are almost entirely supported by Government aid owing to the inability of new-
settlers to bear at the outset school taxation.

That the provincial Govern urent has not so far been able to aid higher education, and
the time must soon come when claims for assistance in this direction will, in order to
keep abreast of the march of progress, have to be recognized.

That this is rentlered all the more necessary inasmuch as the distance that divides
our jirovince and our people from the centres of learning is so great that only citizens of
affluence can now aftbrd to send their children abroad.

That the legislature has already established a uni\-ersity, with whit-h thi'ee colleges
have been affiliated, \iz., Le College de Saint Boniface (Roman Catholic), St. John's
College (Church of England), and Manitoba College (Presbyterian), each institution being
represented in the Council h\ a delegation of seven — three on behalf of the graduates
and one delegate being elected from each section of the Board of Education.

That the patron of the Board is the Honourable the Lieutenant Go\ernor of the
province for the time being, the chancellor (now the Right Reverend Bishop of Rupert's
Land) being selected by the honourable the jiatron, and the vice-chancellor by the
graduates.

That theGo\ernment ha\e received a grant of .§20,000 from the Dominion Go\ern-
ment, viz., 810,000 in 1879 and .*10,000 in 1880, and that in order to meet the liabilities
incurred in the proper maintenance of our puljlic school system we will require next year
a vote of $60,000.

The Honourable the Minister of Agriculture therefore praj-son behalf of his Govern-
ment that the most Honourable the Privy C\)uncil will see their way clear t(jwards not
only placing the sum of !plO,000 to the credit of the province still due liy statute, but
also advancing a further sum of .$80,000 on the same terms as was authorized by 41st
Vic, chap. 13, to be charged against the sales of school lands, so that the present settlers
who have undergone many difficulties and privations in establishing themselves in the
province shall not be aided in an unequal degree from the resources of lands set apart
for the purposes of education, as will be those in future years when these lands are made
available for revenue purposes.

A. A. C. LARIVIERE,
Minister of Agriculture, Statistics and Health

for the Province of Manitoba.

Ott.\wa, March 28, 1888.
The Honourable

The Minister of the Interior.

I have the honour to submit for the considfiration of the Executive Council of Can-
ada, that owing to the sparse settlement of certain poi-tions of the Province of Manitoba
it is necessary that a larger sum should be devoted annually to educational interests
than is at present possible owing to the small provincial income. My Government is
not desirous of trenching farther upon the capital account of the province, but consider
that an advance or loan might be arranged upon the security of the schools lands at
present administered by your department. The necessary sum to be thus advanced or
loaned we estimate at $100,000, which will meet our requirements for a time; to be
drawn as required, and repayment to be made as funds accrue from the sale of school

16 MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

lands. Tlie grave interests involved in the immediate extension of our ediKational
facilities must be considered a-s a justification for this request.

THOS. GREEN WAY,

Premier of Manitolm,

Ottawa, Janiuirv 7, IS89.
Hon. Edgak Dewdn'ev.

Minister of the Interinr.

In pursuance of our conversation to-day, I write you with regard to an ad\ance on
the security of ^lanitoba school lands which the Goverinuent of ilanitoba are desirous of
obtaining. For the year ending June 30, 1889, the sum of •'?15,00U would besutticient. We
have increased our grant to puljlic schools relying on this advance being made, the matter
having been discussed between the late Hon. Thos. White and the Hon. Mr. Greenwav,
last February. We feel that a portion of the moneys to be derived from school lands in
the future might well be spent now, thus giving aid at a time when it is more needed
than it will be later on. Kindly let us know soon whether we may expect this advance.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Public Lands Connnissioner of ^Manitoba.

Thk Phovincial Lands Depaimmknt of Manitoba,

WiNXlPEH, January 24, 1889.
The Hon. Ei)<;ar Dewunev,

Minister of Interior,
Ottawa.

I notice that recently several auction sales of school lantls in this prii\ ince ha\e been
held. I have always understood that it was arranged between this Government and your
Government some years ago that no school lands should be sold at any time except upon
the request of this Government. I am aware that not long ago a considerable quantity of
school lands was put up for sale at dift'erent points within the province at the request >)f
this Government. It may be that the parcels you have sold were included in that
request, but it appears to me that where lands are put up for sale and nt)t sold, they
should not be again put up without the request of the Government of ilanitoba, as cir-
cumstances may materially cjiange with I'egard to the ad\'isability of selling any pai'-
tieular lands.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Provincial Lands Conmiissioner.

Di:rAiiTMKXT OK THE Intekior,

Ottawa, February l-"), 1889.
H(jn. Joseph Marti.n,

Provincial Lands Connnissioner. '

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 2-1 t!i ult., with
regard to the .sales of .school lands in the province of Manitoba.

It has recently been the custom, I understand, to consult the Government of Mani-
toba as to school lands which might be put up at auction from time to time : and as to
the lands which were recently sold, I am informed that they were included in the list
furnished by the Government oi Manitt>ba somewhat over a j'ear ago. I slu)uld wish it
to lie distinctly understood, however, that so long as the law charges the Minister of the
Interior with the administration of school lands, I am prepared to act upon my respon-
sibility as minister in relation U> these sales, and to cause them to be held when I regard
it in the public interest to do so. I shall at all times be glad, however, to recei\e any
suggestions from the ilanitoba Goverinuent in reference to school lanrls.

E. DEWDNEY,
^Ministei' of the Interior.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

WiNNiHEi;, :Man., .Araicli (i, 1889.

The Hon. Edgak Deudney,

Minister of the Interior,
OttaM-a.

Referring to your letter of the 1.5th ultimo, No. 198600, I would say that there has
been a clear understanding between the Dominion Government and this Government
that no school lands should be sold unless at the request of this Government. I would
refer you to tlie report of a committee of the Privy Council dated INIaj' 20, 1884, in
which the following expression occurs speaking of the matter of school lands : ' The
Dominion Government has taken no action in relation to tliese lands without full con-
sultation witli tlie local authorities, and pending sales has sanctioned advances of
§60,000 on account for educational purposes. Of passed action Manitoba cannot com-
plain, and with but one object common to both Governments and with the established
pnvtlce iif coiiaidtLitiiin no just cause of complaint is likely to occur.'

This Order in Council was passed in answer to demand on the part of the then
Government for the transfer to the local Government of the school lands. I must again
submit that the sale of the lands nearly two years after the sale has been recommended
by this Government is not carrj-ing out the spirit of this understanding.

While I was at Ottawa I had the pleasure of an interview with yuu with regard
to the advancement to tliis Goverimient of •* 1.5,000 for purposes of education, to be
deducted from the proceeds of school lands hereafter. At your request I wrote you a
letter making a formal request foi' the same, but have not yet had any reply. I would
urge upon you strongly to let us have this money, as we need it more now than we will
in after years, and it is necessary for the Government to kno^^• whether- thej' are likely
to get this in order that they may make their financial arrangements for the year.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Provincial Lands Commissioner.

The Hon. .Joseph Mautin,

Provincial Lands Commissioner,
Winnipeg

Ottawa, April 29, 1889.

Man.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the Gtli ultimo, No.
198, ha-s'ing reference to the sale of school lands in Manitoba. I thank you for calling my
attention to the Order in Council of May 20, 1884, with the contents of which, however,
I had already made myself familiar. LTpon referring again to my letter of February
15 you will find that its terms are quite consistent with the terms of the Order iii
Council in question. What I stated in that letter I repeat now — that I shall at all
times be glad to receive any suggestions from the Manitoba Government in reference to
school lands ; but I sliould be glad to know on what you base your siatement that there
has been a clear understanding between tlie Dominion Goverimient and the Government
of the province that no school lands should be sold unless at the request of the provincial
G(jvernment. You will observe that this is going very much farther than is done in the
Oi'der in Council.

E. DEWDNEY,
JMinistei' of the Interior.

WiNMHEG, Man., June 1.3, 1889.
The Hon. Edi;ar Dewdney,

^Minister of the Interior,

Ottawa, Ont.

Yours of April 29, No. 200895, duly received. I am very much surprised indeed
at the contents of your letter. It certainly has been the clear understanding between
this Govei'nment and the Dominion Government authorities that no sales of school lands
83—2

18 MAXITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

were to take place witliout first advising this Government and consulting with them as
to the matter. I think the extract from the Order in Council of May 20, 1884,
clearly shows that it is as follows : — ' The Dominion Government has taken no action
in relation to these land.s without full consultation with the local authorities.' Again,
' of past action Manitoba cannot complain and with but one object common to both
Governments and with the esfuh/ia/icd jiractice of consultation, no just cause of com-
plaint is likely to occur.'

I would also refer you to show clearly what the meaning of this was, to a rlespatch
from the Hon. J. A. Chapleau, Secretiiry of State, to His Honour the Lieutentant Gov-
ernor of Manitoba, dated April 2, 188-t, in which the foliowing expression occurs: — 'I
am also to inform you that school lanrls will be offered for sale at auction annually after
conmdtation with the Government of Manitoba as to the time uf sale, quantUy and price.'

I cannot imagine how the construction I place upon this matter can be expressed
more clearly than in the words of the Hon. J. A. Chapleau, which I have just quoted
for you. Your contention that it was only the intention of the Dominion Government
to consider rejiresentations made by the Manitoba Government siinplv amouuts to noth-
ing. We would never for one moment suppose that any representations of ours upon
any subject whatever would not be considered by the Dominion authorities. Our con-
tention has always been that these lands should be administered by the Pi-o\incial
authorities. We have been and are satisfied that they could be much better adminis-
tered, more money made out of them and in every respect more satisfactorily dealt with
by this Government than bv yours. This desire on our part, however, has always been
refused by your Government, and we were partially satisfied by the assurance recei^-ed
by us in 1884 that nothing should be done with the lands till we had first been con-
sulted. It is tlierefore with much regret that we hear from you that your Department
intends to pay no attention to the promises made to us in this respect, and \\e must
protest most vigorously against such dealing with these lands.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Pro\incial Lands Commissioner.

Tnic PiiovixciAL Lands Depar'imext of Manitoha,

Winnipeg, October 29, 1889.
The Right Honourable

Sir John A. Macdonald,

President of the Council,
Ottawa, Ont.

1 have had som6 correspondence with the Honourable Edgar Dewdney with regard
to school lands in this province. I inclose you copies of my letters to him. You can
get his replies of course from liis department. You will see that this Government takes
the strongest ground as to the (juestion of the school lands, and I think my letters
clearly show that an express agreement was made between the Dominion Goxernment
and the Local Government under which it was agreed that the Dominion Government
would take no action with regard to these lan.ls without full consultation with the local
authorities. It is proposed, 1 understand, to sell sch^)ol lands this winter. We must
strongly protest against any such action. It is a most inopportune time to sell any
lands in this pro\ ince for reasons which it is jirobably not necessary to go into in detail
but which will be furnished to you or Mr. Dewdney if desired. There are a few locali-
ties in which it might be advi.sable to sell this year.

JOSEPH MARTIN,

Provincial Lands Counnissioner.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXCS 19

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Tin; Provincial Lands Depahtment of Manitoba,

\\'iN-\-lPi.:r., fVtoher 29, 1889.
The HdiiouialiU' KociAR DnwDXEV,
^lini-ster of the Interior,
Ottawa, Ont.

1 wrote j'ou very fully on June 13, in answer to yours of April 29, '^o. 200895,
with regard to the position that you take as to school lands. I have never had any
reply to this letter. I hear, however, that your oflicers are making valuations and pre-
paring to hold a sale of school lands this coming winter. I must protest most vigor-
ously against any such action. I again draw your attention to the reference made bv
me in my letter of June 13, from which it clearly appears that the Better Terms
Settlement of 1884 included an expi-ess agreement on tlie part of the Dominion Govern-
ment, tliat no sales of school lands would be made and no action taken without full
consultation with this Government. If I am correctly informed as to your contemplated
action in selling sch(.)ol lanfls this winter without any consultation with us, you are clear-
ly \ iolating this agreement. The proceeds of tlie school lands are for the benefit of
this province. The Dominion Government occupies the position of trustee for this pro-
vince with regard to these lands. It is not usual, even in the absence of express agree-
ments, for trustees to act straight against the wishes of the cestuique trust unless indeed
there are very strong reasons for overruling the wishes of the cestuique trust. I cannot
understand why in this matter you should not even an.swer my letters. I have written
a letter to Sir John A. JNIacdonald, calling his attention to what I consider a grave
violation of our rights in the matter.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Provincial Lands Commissioner.
P.S. — Tlieif are a few localities in which it is advisable to make a sale this vear.

Ottawa, X(>\-ember 1(5, IS.s;).
The H(jnourable Joseph Mautix,

Provincial Lands Commissioner,
Winnipeg, !Man.

I am dulv in receipt of your letter of tlie 29tli ultimo, having reference to
school lands. If vou will again refer to my letter of February 1.5, vou will observe that
there is nothing therein contained which is at all ineon.sistent with the Orfler in Council of
May 20, 1884. So far there has been no departure from the jiractice of consulting the
Go\"ernment of Manitoba as to school lands which may be put up at auction from time
to time. Will you be good enough to inform me upon what authority you state that it
was contemplated to sell schoi:)l lands this winter without consulting with the Provincial
Government ?

EDGAR DEWDNEY.

Minister of the Interior.

The Provixcial Lands Department of Manitoba,

Winnipeg, December 4, 1889.
The Honourable Edoar Dowdnev,
Ministei' of the Interior,
Ottawa, Ont.

I have the lK)nour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 16th ulto.,
with reference to schotil lands. I ha\e referred to your letter of February 15, as
suggested and I tinil there a statement which in my opinion is veiy inconsistent with
the Order in Council of May 20, 1884. You say ' I should wish it to be distinctly
understood however that so long as the law charges the Minister of the Interior w itli
83—21

20 MASITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

the administration of school lands, I am prepared to act upon my responsibility of a
Minister in relation to these sales and to cause them to be so held when I re;,'ai'd it in
the public interest to do so.'

I referred vou in a letter dated June 13, to a jiortion of a despatch from the
Hon. J. A. Chapleau, Secretary of State to His Honour the Lieutenant Governor of
Manitoba, dated April 2, 1884, in which the following expression occurs : ' I am also to
inform you that school lands will be offered for sale at^auction annually after consultation
with the Government of Manitoba as to time of sale, quantity and price.' Now I
understand from that and from the Order in Council that no sales of school lands will
be made in opposition to the advice of this Government, and I contend that if we advise
the sales of land on one year, that will not be a justification to your department to sell
these lands in a subsequent year as you did with regard to the sales of lands complained
of in my letter of January 24, 1889. Mere consultation with us without paying any
attention to what we say would be a construction of said Order in Council which could
onlv be characterized as a quibble to control and manage these lands, but only as trustees
following the wishes and desires of the pro\-ince as to time and manner of sale. You
also ask in your letter of the 16tli ultimo, to inform you upon what authority I stated
that it was contemplated to sell school lands this winter without cousulation with the
Provincial Government. In answer to that I would saj^ that I have been credibly
informed that your homestead inspectors have stated to various persons that it was the
intention to have a sale of school lands this winter. It has now reached December 4,
and no consultation has taken place between your department and this Government
with regard to the matter, and, as I have before informed you, I do not tliink it advisable
to hold a sale of school lands this winter, at least to anv considerable extent, and I
protest most vigorously against your depaitment deliberately sacrificing and wasting
these lands which are intended to be a heritage to^the people of this province for school
purposes. Our Government here have always strongly contended that these lands
should be administered by ourselves. I think no stronger argument for that contention
can be found than the fact that your de]iartment propose to sell these lands at this time :
at a time when they are sure to be sacrificed and at a time which no one administering
the lands with a proper know-ledge of the circumstances would think for one moment of
adopting as propitious for sale.

I should be very glad indeed if you would reconsider your decision in this matter,
and I should also like to have it distinctly understood for the future whether the
solemn arrangement entered into on May 20, 1884, meant what I contend it does mean,
or was simply a mere nothing as I understand you to contend it was.

JOSEPH MARTIN,

Provincial Lands Commissioner.

Department of the Interior,

Ottawa, Dec. 11, 1889.
The Honourable Joseph Martin,

Provincial Lands Commissioner,
Winnipeg, Man.

I am directed to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 4th instant, with
reference to school lands, and to call your attention to the fact that counnunication
between the Government of Canada and the government of a province are not usually
made through homestead inspectors. In this instance, if any homestead inspectoi' made
any such communication as is stated in your letter, to the Government of Manitoba or
to anyone else, he did so without authority.

JOHN R. HALL,

Secretai-y.

MAXlTOllA SCHOOL LANDS 21

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Tjik Provinciai, Lands Depaktmkxt, Maxitoba,

WiXNiFKi;, Max., l)e(;einber 30, 1889.
•loiix R. Hall, Esu.,

Secretary Department uf the Interior,
Ottawa, Ont.

Your.s of the 11 th instant. No. 198600, duly received. I have never .stated to you
or to your department that I had received a connnunication from the Government of
Canada throujjh the medium of home.stead inspectors as to the sale of school lands.
What I have complained of is that your department has decided to sell .school lands
this winter and was makiiij; arrangements for said sale without consulting this Govern-
ment. I have a letter from the Hon. ilr. Dewdnej- dated February \h, 1889, in which
he states practically that while he will always be glad to receive suggestions from the
Government of Manitoba, still he proposes to sell tliese lands whenever he regards it in
the public interest to do so. I have objected most strenuouslj' to the stand that Mr.
Dewdnev takes in that letter, on the ground that there is a definite agreement between
the Dominion Government and this Government under which the Dominion Govern-
ment continues to administer the school lands as trustees for us with the distinct under-
standing that no school lands are to be sold without the consent of this government first
having been obtained. Your letter of the 11th instant, if it means anj'thing except to
be offensive, I take it to be a statement that your department has not decided to hold a
sale of school lands this year and has not made any preparation.s to do so. If this is
the case there must be a verv serious misunderstanding between the department at
Ottawa and the Dominion Lands Counnission here. I inclose you copy of a letter from
the 8ecretarv of Dominion Lands Commission to Mr. J. M. Graham, General Manager
of the Northern Pacific and Manitoba Kailwav Company here, in whicli it is very plainly
intimated that there is to be a sale of school lands in February next. I may say that
this letter was sent to me by INIr. Graham to induce me to apply to your department to
have the quarter section fif land mentioned put up for sale.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Provincial Lands Commissioner.

DePARTMEXT of the IXTERIOli,

Office of the Co.mmissioxer of Do.mixiox Laxds,

WixNiPEG, Man., December 10, 1889.
J. M. Graham, Escj.,

General Manager, N. P. l^- ]M. Railway, Winnipeg.

In reply to your letter of the 7tli instant, I am directed by the Commissioner
to inform you that if it will answer vour purpose to wait until the sale of school lands
to be held in February next, the N.E. \ of section 11-.0-14 west will be included in the
list of lands which the Commissioner is asking autliority to oiler for sale by public auc-
tion at that time, and your company will have an opportunity of bidding for it, but if it
would suit you better and you so advise him, the Commissioner will ask for authority
of the Privy C<iuncil to put this quarter section up for sale by itself immediately. If
you wish this done, it is desirable that the Provincial Gf)vernment should join in your
request. The Commissioner will recommend that the minimum upset price of f 5 per
acre fixed by the regulations be the upset price in eitlier case for this land.

R. A. RUTTAN,

Assistant Secretary.

Department of the Interior,

Ottawa, February i:], 1890.
Honourable Joseph Martin,

Provincial Lands Commissioner,

I have the honour by direction, to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of
the 3(tth of December last, with further reference to the question of the disposal of

22 MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXUS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

school lands in Manitoba, and inclosing a c-opy of a letter from Mr. R. A. Uuttan,
Assistant Secretary of the Dominion Lands Board, addressed to J. 'SI. Graham, Esq.,
General Manager of the Xorthern Pacific and Manitoba Railway, with respect to the
a])plication of the company to purchase the X.E. \ of 11 — 5 — 1+ W., 1st meridian.

LY^^D^VODE PEREIRA,

Assistant Secretary.

DePAUTMEXT of the IXTElilOR,

Ottawa, February 13, 1890.

Deau Mr. 8.MITH, — I send you lierewith a copy of a lettei- from the Honourable
Joseph Martin, with respect to the sale of school lands in Manitoba, and also a copy of
one inclosed by liiin from Mr. Ruttan to ilr. J. ^I. Graham, General Manager of the
Xorthern Pacific and Manitoba Railway, in which he states that tlie X.E. \ 11 — 5 — 14
W., 1st M., will be included in 'the list of lands which the Commissioner is asking
authority to offer for sale by puljlie auction at that time," that is, during this month,
and I shall be obliged if you will inform me on what autliority Mr. Ruttan made this
statement, as there was no intention nor any proposition to do so as far as I am aware,
of holding a general sale of school lands at the present time.

I shall be glad of an early reply.

A. :\I. BURGESS,

Deputy Minister of the Interior.

Department of the Intehior,

Office of the Com:missioxei! of Dominion Lands,

WiNNiPEo, Man., February 17, 1890.
A. SI. BiRoEss, Esij.,

Deputy of the Minister -of tlie Interior,
Ottawa.

I have your letter of the ISth instant. No. 224348 on 198G00 inquiring by what
authority the Assistant Secretary stated in his letter to the General ^lanager of the
Northern Pacific Railway Company, dated December 10 last, that it was proposed to
hold a sale bv public auction during this month of certain school sections. I find that
at the time this letter was written to jNIr. Graham we were actually preparing a list of
school lands, which list was subsequently forwarded to you with my letter of December
19 last. No. 1.56781. That list was prepared in consec[uence of a suggestion contained
in your private communication to myself dated December 3, in which you informed me
that ' Father Cloutier writes im|uiring whether a sale of school lands will be held this
winter. He states tliat two families located on section 29, tp. 8, rge. 2 east, are desirous
of purchasing their holdings. I have told him, in reply, that it is not intended to have
a general sale of school lands in Manitoba this winter, but that if any considerable
number of persons were desirous of buying we might manage to hold a small sale. I
think that if you were to send us a list of the applications for school lands we might in
the end conclude to consult with the Manitoba Government as to the advisability of
selling a few sections, kc'

I do not think that there is anything in Ruttan's letter that would justify Mr.
Martin in assuming we had definitely decided to hold a sale of school sections this
month, and all that he can fairly take "from it is that I w-as asking for authority to hold
such sale.

A copy of the letter to ^Ir. Graham above mentioned was sent to the Seci'etary im
December 11, as also a copy of ^Ir. Graham's letter to whirli it was a reply.

H. H. SMITH.

MANITOISA SCHOOL LANDS 23

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Dkpartment of the Inierioh,

Ottawa, February 26, 1890.
The Hououralile Joseph ^Iartix,

Pi'ovineial Lands Commissioner,
Winnipeg, Man.

Referring furtlier to the Assistant Secretary's letter to you of the 1 3th instant,
I beg to say that \\\y letter of December 11, to which you refer in j'our communi-
cation of the 30th of that month, was not meant to be offensive, and if you will
look at it again I am quite sure that you will agree that no such construction could
properly- be placed upon it. It is quite clear that the letter written by Mr. Ruttan to
Mr. Graham, dated December 10, could not have been the autliority on which you stated,
on the -Ith of that month, that you had been credibly informed that homestead
inspectors have stated to various persons that it was the intention to have a sale of
school lands this winter. If, however, any homestead inspector did make a state-
ment of the kind, it is scarcely necessary to say that it could not have any such official
authority as to justify you in asserting, as j'ou have frequently done in the course of
this correspondence, that the Go\'ernment intended to sell school lands in Manitoba
without consulting the Provincial (government.

As to Mr. Ruttan's letter of December 10 to Mr. Graham, I am to say that upon
receipt of a copy of it the Minister caused communication to be had with the Commis-
sioner of Dominion Lands, with a view of ascertaining how Mr. Ruttan came to make
the statement he did. In answer the Commissioner refers to a letter addressed to him
by the Deputy Minister, in which he mentions that inquiry has been made as to whether
a sale of school lands would be held this winter, and that the correspondent was told in
reply, ' that it is not intended to have a general sale of school lands in Jlanitoba, but
that if any considerable number of persons are desirous of buying we might manage to
hold a small sale.' ^Ir. Burgess added :

' I think if you (the Commissioner) were to send us a list of the applications for
school lands we might in the end conclude to consult with the Manitoba Government
as to the advisability of selling a few sections.'

JOHN R. HALL

Secretary.

PiiovixfiAL Lands Department, Manitoba,
Winnipeg, August 30, 1890.
Honourable EnoAR Dewdnev,

Minister of the Interior,
Ottawa, Ont.

Referring to the conversation between yourself and members of this Government at
Winnipeg, while you were hereon your visit west, I would suggest that it would be well
to make immediate arrangements in connection with the leasing of school lands in this
province.

A great many persons lease the land they intend to work the season before. In the
case of thtise lands now occupied by squatters fall ploughing will no doubt be done by most
of them, and it wiiuld be only fair that they should at once be notified of the intention
of y(jur Government tn lease the lands.

JOSEPH MARTIN,

Provincial Lands Commissioner.

Ottawa, Sept. 12, 1Si)().
The Honourable -Joseph ^Iaktin,

Provincial Lands Commissioner,
Winnipeg, Man.

I ha\-e the honour to acknowleflge the receipt of vour letter of the 30th ultimo,
with reference to the leasint; of school lands. Tlie Minister of the Interior is now on

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

his wav to England, but the matter will be submitted to the Aetins ^linister without
delay.

JOHN P.. HALL,

8ecretaiv.

Ottawa, October

1890.

Honourable Joseph Martin,

Provincial Lands Comnii.ssiouer,
Winnipeg, Man.

I write to you, in the absence of Mr. Greenway, in further reference to the inter
view which the Minister and myself had with the members of your Government in Win"
nipeg last summer, to ask whether, in view of the very fine crop obtained in the province
this year and the exceptionally prosperous condition of the people, it might not be advis-
able in the public interest and in the interest of the school fund in particular to offer
for sale during the coming winter some of the more conveniently situated sections of
school lands which have been applied for. I address you this note merely that the sub-
ject may not be overlooked, and so that I may be in a position to inform the ]Minister
on his return from England in the course of a few weeks what the views of your Gov-
ernment are.

A. ^L BURGESS,

Deputy Minister of the Interior.

Provincial Lands D^iPARTMENT, Manitoba,

Winnipeg, October 29, 1890.
A. M. Burgess, Esq.,

Deputy Minister of the Interior,
Ottawa, Ont.

Yours of the 2.5th inst. at hand. Our Go\ernment are of the opinion that it would
not be advisable to sell the school lands at present, and we desire that your department
should lease the land, as suggested in the interview to which you refer and also in my
letter to the Minister of the Interior of August 30, 1890.

I regret veiy much indeed that I am afraid facts will not bear out what you say
with regard to the very fine crop of this year and the exceptionally prosperous condition
of the people. We hope to have a fairly large crop to export, but the season has boen
very much against harvesting operations and the reports from different jsarts of the
province are not nearly so favourable as it was at first hoped they would be.

JOSEPH MARTIN,
Provincial Lands Commissioner.

Provincial Lands Dkpart.ment, Manitoba,

Winnipeg, Xovember 14, 1890.
Honouraljle EDftAR Dewdney,

Minister of the Interioi',
Ottawa, Ont.

I would respectfully ask for an answer to my letter of August 30 last, with regard
to the leasing of school lands, which I was informed by letter from your department,
dated September 12, would be submitted to the Acting Minister without delay.

JOSEPH MARTIN,

Provincial Lands Commissioner.

MA XI TOE A SCHOOL LAXDS 25

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Ottawa. NommhIxm- l'4. Is90.
The Huiiuuralde Jo.sicpii ilAHTlx,

Provincial Lands Coinniissionei',
Winnipeg, Man.

I liave the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 14th instant
" ith regard to the leasing of school lands. Sir John Thompson did not care to deal
with a matter of this kind, involving a question of change of policy, during the very
brief absence oi the ^Minister in England. The ^Minister has now returned and I will
immediately lay the papers before him.

A. M. BURGESS,

Deputy ^Minister of the Interior.

Proviscial Lands Department, Manitoba,

Winnipeg, December 11, 1890.
A. M. Burgess, Esq.,

Deputy Minister of the Interior,
Ottawa, Out.

Yours of the 24th ultimo, promising that the papers in regard to leasing of school
lands would be at once laid before the Honourable the ^Minister of the Interior, was
duly received. I hope by this time that the ^Minister has been able to deal with the
matter, as I understood from him at our interview here that he was quite prepared to
carry out this policy if this Go%-ernment would take the responsibility of suggesting it.
There is no matter in the pi'ovince causing a greater amount of petty anno\'ance and
local ill-feeling than these school lands being thrown open to squatters. These squatters
pay no taxes of any kind ; in many cases, have the use of the choicest land in the town-
ship ; get the benefit oi roads, schools, municipal impro\ements of all kinds, and it
certainly is great neglect on the part of those responsible for the administration of these
lands that the present state of affairs should be allowed to exist. If the Government at
Ottawa is afraid of the political effect of ejecting from these lands the squatters who are
not willing to comply with reasonable regulatifms as to leasing, they may throw the
entire responsibility up.on this Government.

JOSEPH MARTIX,

Provincial Lands Commissioner.

Ottawa, December 23, 1890.
The Honourable Joseph Martin,

ProvinciaJ^ Lands Commissioner,
Winnipeg, Man.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 11th instant,
No. 807, with reference to squatting t.>n school lands, and beg to say that the question
has not been lost sight of. The Minister has given a great deal of consideration and
attention to the matter and will be ready to deal with it definitely in a very short time.
He directs me to add that it is unnecessary to say that the Government is not afraid of
the political or any other effect which may arise out of the performance of a public duty.

A. M. BURGESS.

Deputy ^Minister of the Interior.

Certified ropi/ of a Report of a Committee of th^ HonourahJe the Privy Council,
apjp/rored by His E.eceUeticy the Gdveriior Cem-rol in Council on March 20,
1891.

On a report dated March 18, 1891, from the Minister of the Interior submitting
the following point in regard to the administration of school lands in the Province of
Manitoba.

26 MA XI TOP, A SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The contention is made by the Honourable Josejih ^lartin, reiving on the reference
contained in the Orders in Council of the 1st of April and the 20th May, 188-1, copies of
which are hereto annexed, to the practice of consultation with the Government of Mani-
toba in regard to the disposal of school lands in the province, that it is incumbent
upon the Dominion Government to hold no sales of school lands in Manitoba without
the consent of the Local Government.

The ^Minister observes that it has been the practice, as a matter of courtesy, befoi'e
holding auction sales of school lands in ilanitoba, to ascertain the views of the Pro-
^incial Government in regard thereto, and the auction sales that ha\e taken place in
the pro^^nce were held with their concurrence.

The Minister states that in view' of the number of applications which have been
made to the Department of the Interior to purchase school lands, an auction sale was
contemplated for last autumn, but on consulting with the members of tJie Local Govern-
ment on the subject it was found that they were opposed to any sale being held that
season, and in deference to their wishes the sale was indefinitely postponed, although in
the opinion of the Minister of the Interior the time was favourable for disposing of these
lands at good prices, in view of the excellent harvest of last season and the demand exists
ing for these lands.

The Minister in consideration of these facts desires to call attention to this matter
and wishes for a definition of the .position of the Dominion Go\"ernment in the premises,
as trustees of these lands, for, if the contention of .Mr. ilartin is coriect, that the Do-
minion Government is bound to hold no sales of school lands in the Province of Mani-
toba without the consent of the Local Government, it involves a very vital qualification
of the discretion reposed bv Parliament in Your Excellency in Council and the ^Minister
of the Interior, and such an abridgement of the trust created h\ the school lands pro-
visions of the Dominion Lands Act as, in his opiniun, would require to be authorized b}'
Parliament.

The Minister observes that it has been declared by Parliament that the school
lands in Manitoba and' the North-west Territories shall be administered by the Min-
ister of the Interior under the direction of the Governor in Council, and he submits that
the position of the Dominion Go\-ernment as trustees of these lauds would be practically
untenable, if, while charged with the responsibility for the proper administration of the
same, Your Excellencv were unable to take such action as might seem to be in the inter-
est of the School Endowment, the more especially since, should any action or want of
action prove injurious to the School Endowment, the fact of the Dominion Government
having been guided in the premises by the wishes'of the Government of the province
would not relieve it of its responsibility for the result.

The Minister therefoie recommends that the Government of ^Manitoba be informed
that, while the Dominion Go\-ernment has expressed its desire, as a matter of courtesy,
to consult the local administration as to the sale of the school lands, it is also bound by
Act of Parliament to administer these lands solely through the Minister of the Interior,
under the direction of Your Excellency in Council, and therefore to hold sales of such
lauds when Your Excellency deems it adWsable in the public interest.

The Connnittee concurring in the above, advise that the Secretary of State be
authorized to transmit a copy of this Minute, if approved, to the Lieutenant Governor
of ^Manitoba for the information of liis Government.
All which is respectfullv submitted.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Departmext of the Interior,

Ott.\wa, March 26, 1891.
The Honourable Thomas Greexway,

Winnipeg, Man.

AVith further reference to my letter of the 11th November last, addressed to the
Honourable ;Mi-. Martin. I have the honour to inform vou that the Minister of the

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS 27

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Interior has very carefully coiisiilered from all points of view your proposition to lease
some portion of the school lands of Manitoba, and has come to the conclusion that to
adopt such a policy would not be in the interests of the School Endowment.

The experience of the department in the management of the public lanils of Canada
goes to prove that the leasehold system involves relatively much greater expense than
the system of selling. Ncjt only is the ordinary cost of management relati\'ely very high,
but when tenants fall in arrear, as they naturally and inevitably do, their ejectment and
the collection of the arrears involves an expensive suit at law. Moreover, the interest
of a lessee, unless the leasehold were confined to purely pastoral purposes would be to
obtain as much as pii.s.sible from the land during the time he was in occujiation ; and
before the expiry of the lea.se the soil would be greatly exhausted anil the mai-ketable
value of the property reduced to a minimum. It would of course, as suggested by you in
the course of the discussion which you had with the Minister, be possible to insert such
c(jnditions in the lease as would tend to prevent the exhaustion of the soil, but the
Minister has concluded that the cost of the machinery necessary to enforce such con-
diti<ins would be out of all reasonable propoi-tiou to the revenue.

A statement of the school lands account of Manitoba has been prepared by this
departuient in conjunction with the Department of Finance, and is now under considera-
tion by Hi.s Excellency the Governoi' General in Council. The result of it, when ren-
dered, will be to sln)w that a considerable annual revenue will henceforward be flerived
by the pnaxince from the sales of the school lands already made : and it is hoped, if the
prospei'itv which the province has latterly experienced in agricultui'al affairs should be
maintained, that this revenue will be very largely increased in the oour.se of the next
few years.

I have further to inform you that the Government is taking active measures to
eject trespassers from the school lands in the province.

' A. M. BU11GE.SS,

Deputy Minister of the Interioi'.

Department of twv. Secret.vry of State,

Ottawa, Ajiril 1, 1891.
The Deputy Minister of the Interior,
Ottawa.
I ha\'e the honour to infoi-m you that I have this day transmitted to the Lieutenant
Governor of ^Manitoba, for the infoi'mation of his Go\'ernment, copy of a Blinute of Coun-
cil, dated the 20th March last, making known the course to be pursued by this Govern-
ment as regards the sale of schocil lands in the Province of Manitoba.

L. A. CATELLIER,

Under-Secretary of State.

Department of the Intehior,

Ottawa, May 29, 1S91.
L. A. Catellier, Esij.,

Under-Secretary of State,

Ottawa.
I ha\e the honour, by direction of the Minister of the Interior, to request that the
Government of Manitoba may be informed that in consequence of the number of ajipli-
cations which have been ma<le, and are still being made, to this department to pui-chase
school lands in Manitoba, it is proj)osed to offer a number of the.se lands for sale by
])ublic aucti(jn, in accordance with the provisions of the Dominion Lands Act in that
i>ehalf, about January next, or so soon after this season's harvest is gathered as may be
convenient, should the harvest be a satisfactory one. In conformity with the practice
heretofore, the Minister desires that this information be con\-eyed to the Provincial
Government, with the expression of the hope that the proposed time of the sale com-
mands their approval.

A. M. BURGESS,
Deputy Minister of the Interior.

28 MAXITOBA SCHOOL LAXDs

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Department of the Secretary of .State,

Ottawa, June 2, L'<91.
A. M. Burgess, Es<<.,

Deputy Minister of the Interior.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter, 19t<600, of the 29th
ultimo, respecting the proposed sale of school lands in ^Manitoba, and to inform you
that in accordance with the desire of the Minister of the Interic>r, a notification of such
pi-oposed sale and tlie time thereof has been communicated to the Government of the
province of Manitoba with an expression that the time named may command their
approval.

L. A. CATELLIER,

Under-Secretary of State.
Lieutenant Governor.

Depautmext of the Secretary or State,

Ottawa, June 12, 1891.
The Deputy of the Minister of the Interior,
Ottawa.

Adverting to your letter of the 29th ultimo, I have the honour to transmit to you
herewith for the information nf the Honourable the Minister of the Interior, copvof the
reply made by the Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba on receipt of the ntitification made
to him by this department respecting the purposed sale of school lands in the said
province.

L. A. CATELLIER,

Under-Secretary of State.

The Lender Secretaiy of State,
Ottawa.

Government House.

Winnipeg, June 5, 1S91.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of dispatch No. 169-"), file No. 1862,
dated 2nd instant, informing me that in consequence of thenumberof applications made
to the Dominion Government to purchase school lands in this province, it is proposed to
ofi'er a number of sections of the.se lands for sale by public auction about January next,
or as soon after this season's harvest is gathered as may be convenient.

In reply, I have to state that I have directed the attention of my Government to
the consideration of your despatch ; but that, owing to the temporai-v absence of the
Premier, that consideration will have to be deferred till his return.

JOHN SCULTZ,

ExTRACTy';T/)n a Jieport of the Committee of the Hononrahle the Privy Ccmtril, approved
hy His Excellency on April SO, 1892.

On a report dated April 16, 1892, from the Minister of the Interior, stating that
by an Order in Council date<l April I, 1891, certain lands in the Prince Albert district
embraced within a l)elt twelve miles wide on either side of the line, were set apart for
tlie purposes of the land grant to the ^lanitoba and North-western Railway Company,
and that by a jirevious Order in Council dated February -t, 1891, an area of 1,269,0.31
acres of land was set apart for the purposes of the land grant to the Qu'Appelle, Long
Lake and Saskatchewan Railwav Companv.

The ^Minister further states that an examination of the lands set apart for the
purposes of the last menticmed companv's grant prt)ved that a considerable proportion

MANITOBA SCHOOL LASDS 29

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

<.>f the (Mlfl-miiiibereil sectiiiiis within the tract ccni Id not bo classified as't'airiv tit for
settlement' ; and witli a view to make up the area of the grant due to the e(iiii|iaii.v it
has become necessary to make a further reservation.

The Mini.stei- further states that it has also been intimated to him bv the Manitoba
and North-western Railway Company that the portion of their line between Yurkton
and Prince Albert will be located further north than was anticipated at the time of the
passage of the Order in Council of Ai)ril 4, 1S91, hereinbefore referred to, and consei[uently
some of the lands reserved would not fall within a belt twelve miles wide on either side
of the line. ilr. F. Bryflges, the vice-president of the railway, has bv letter designated
certain lands within the company's existing reserves which they are waiting to suri'ender
and accept other lands in the Birch Hills and Carrot River districts in lieu thereof.

The Minister, as the lands proposed to be .surrendered are contiguous to the reserva-
tion of the Qu'Appelle, Long Lake and Saskatchewan Railway and would become avail-
able on being withdrawn from the existing reservation for the purposes of the land
grant to that company, submits herewith a map on which, coloured in red, are shewn the
lands which the Manitoba and North-western Railway Company otter to surrender,
and in blue the lands the odd-numbered sections in which they propose shall be reserverl
in lieu thereof, and he reconnnends that the proposition of Mr. Brydges receive the
approval of Youi' Excellency in Council.

The Committee submit the aliove recommendation for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract /'/v^»i « Rrjjort nf thi- Cuinmittee u/ the Honourah/e the Privy Counril, <ipiir(iv<id
hy His Excellency on M'ly 27, 1S92.

On a report dated May 17, 1892, from the Minister of the Interior, stating that the
auction sale of school lands held at Calgary, on July 16, 1889, sales were made to
Messrs. R. H. Moody and to ^V. F. Ramsay, Messrs. W. F. Orr and Janws A\'alkei- and
Mr. T. S. Lee for portions of section i, township 'H, range 1, west of the 5th ^Meridian.

The Minister further states that patents were subsequently issued to Messrs.
Moody and Ramsaj' for their respective portions of the section, and that there ha^■ing
been received from Mr. Ramsay a protest against the reservation of the right to the
minerals in the land in question under the authoritj' of the Order in Council of October
31, 1887, he was authorized by Order in Council of December 8, 1891, to issue supple-
mentary letters patent to Mr. Ramsay and Associate, covering the minerals reserved in
the certificate of title to their lands.

The Mini.ster, in view of the fact that the sales to Messrs. Orr, AValker and Lee,
were made under circumstances exactly similar to those under which Messrs. Moody and
Ramsay purchased from the Government, recommends that he be authoi-ized to issue
patents to ilessrs. Orr, Walker and Lee, without any mineral reservation.

The Committee advise that the requisite authority be granted.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Pi'ivy Council.

Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Honnnroble the Privy L'oiuiril, (xpiiruved
hy His Excellency, May SO, 1892.

On a report dated May 13, 1892, from the Minister of the Interior, submitting
that it was provided by the Order in Council of Januarj' 13, 1890, that the ^Manitoba
and South-western Railway Company should be permitted to acquire the area applied
for by them in school sections, for the purposes of the railway, and which were .set forth
in the schedule which accompanied the said Order in Council, at the prices set oppnsite to
each parcel described therein.

MAXITOBA SCHOOL LAXDH

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

The ^Minister observes that it was, however, siil)seqiiently repiesented by the com-
pany that tlie prices fixed by the Order in Council were in some instances excessi\e,
being, thev contended, higher than the actual market vakie of tlie hind, and as there
appeared on further consideration of the mattei', reason to believe that there was, with
respect to some of the parcels, ground for the company's complaint, the Commissioner
of Dominion Lands was requested to reconsider his valuation with a view of reducin"
the prices where there seemed to be a probability that they were in excess of the market
value of the land, with the provision, however, that the aggregate sum placed by the
revaluation upon the total area required by the company, should represent an average
price of not less than $5 per acre, nearly all the lands required by the company l)eing
within the province of Manitoba, and this being the price agreed upon with the Govern-
ment of Manitoba, as the minimum price at which school lands in that province should
be disposed of.

The ilinister states that a report has now been recei\ed from the Commissioner of
Dominion Lands submitting a revaluation of the lands in ipiestion as set forth in the
schedule hereto annexed, and the average price according to this valuation is over the
minimum price of 85 per acre, before referred to, being in fact i?6.45 per acre.

The Minister recommends that the prices placed upon the parcels in the annexed
schedule be approved, and that the Manitoba and South-western Railway Company be
permitted to acquire the parcels therein mentioned, for right of way and station ground
purposes at such prices, in lieu of those fixed by Order in Council of January 13, 1890,
before referred to, which he (the ^linister) recommends be rescinded .so far as it relates
to the prices to be charged the company for the lands in question.

The Committee submit the above for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

List of parcels of school lands applied for liy the 3Ianitoba and North-western
Railway Company for right of way and other pui-poses of the railway, as set forth in the
descriptions and tracings filed by the ccynpany in the Department of the Interior,
together with the prices at which it is recommended the company be allowed to acipiire
the same, in lieu of the prices named in the schedule attached to the Order in Council
of January 13, 1890.

Section.

No.

PaitofE.i

.. N.E.i

.. S.W.i

T G O

Part'ofN^jandof S-KJ!

„ S.i"

M S.W.i

.. N.A

.. S.VV.i...

.. S.W.i

" s..i

"■ S.W.i

M W.J,aiidofS.K.i.

.. E.l'and uf N.W.}

M \\0, and of S.K.i.

.. W.Jandof S.E.i.

.. S.W.i

.. W.J,

.. s..r

32
11
11
29
29
11
29
11
211
11
11
11
11
20
11
11
11
29

Townshi]). Range.

13
13
15
15
15
16
17
17
19
19
21

24
2S
28
29
15
14
13

Meridian.

9 W.

9 U'.
IS W.
IS W.
19 \V.
21 W.
23 W.
25 W.
28 W.
28 \V.
X) W.
,■^0 W.

2 \V.

7 W.

8 \V.

18 \V.

19 W.
19 W.

Are;( in

Acres.

4-07

3 11

9ti9

40 00

13 06
732
3 05

12-27
22 09
1205
12 59
12-87
10 30
10-84

14 47
14-72

1 80

8 58

20-31

Price
per Acre.

1 Remarks.

S cts.

6 50
6 50
5 00
20 00
o 00
5 00
4 00

4 00
3 00
3 00
3 00
3 00
2 50
2 00
2 50
2 00

20 no ]

5 00 I
5 Oil I

Gravel Pit

For i-t. of

way.Siisk'n

& \\'estern

Blanch.

Department of the Interior, Ottawa, May 13, 1892.

MAXITOISA SCHOOL LANDS 31

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

ExTUACT /'/•(/»( (( Jinixirt tif llii' CiimmitU'e af tin' lliinonrahli' tin- I'lirij Cmiiinl, up]iroved
Jiif His Excelleiicy on Jduunrij H, 1893.

On a report dated Deceint)er 31, 189"2, from the Minister of the Interior, sid)niittin>;
the following with respect to tlie proposed sales of school lands.

After a careful consideration of the long standing question of the illegal occupation
and cultivation of school hinds in Manitoba, it was decided that, except in certain special
cases which the Jliuister of the Interior proposes to submit for special consideration by
Your Excellency in Council, the only way of protecting the interests of the School
Endowment, and of preventing at the same time any apparent hardship to those squat
ters who in good faith and in ignorance of the law had settled upon these lands, wf)uld
be to oiFer at public auction at an early date all those quarter sections of .school lands
which to the knowledge of the Department of the Interior were illegally occupied, thus
afi'ording the squatters an opportunity of acciuiring the land, and after the sale to take
legal proceedings against all those wlio failed to a\-ail themselves of the chance of acquir-
ing the land, and yet persisted in their illegal occupation or cultivation of the same.

It was also proposed to take ad\antage of this sale to oifer at the same time those
school lands for which applications had been made and which had been inspected,
provided that no lands should be oflered at less than .S-o per acre.

The Minister observes that before taking any further steps in the matter tlie Com-
missioner of Dominion Lands, in accordance with instructions from him (the Minister)
consulted Mr. Gieenway, the Premier of the province, as to the views of his Go\ernment
with respect to the proposed sale, and is informed that Mr. Greenway concurred as to
the desirability of offering for sale the lands squatted on, but expressed himself as being
doubtful as to the expediency of including this season any other school lands in such
sale, unless there be a demand for them. It is, therefore, only proposed to offer, in
addition to the lands illegally occupied or cultivated, those lands for which special
applications have been received. There is no danger of any of those lands being sold at
a sacrifice, as care has been taken to place an upset price upon each parcel equal to the
full value of the land, as determined and made after inspection of each parcel b}- a
specially qualified officer of the Department of the Interior, and a subse<|uent independ-
ent valuation made b}' a competent appraiser.

The Minister, therefore, recommends that he be authorized to offer for sale by public
auction the school lands comprised in lists prepared by his authority, in accordance with
the facts hereinbefore recited, and at an upset price opposite each parcel in the said
lists, being in no case less than .SS per acre, the sales to be held at the places and on
the dates mentioned in such lists, that is to .sa}- : —

At Morden, January 2.5, 1893. At Pilot Mound, January 27, 1893.

At Deloraine, January 30, 1893. At Glenboro, Februarj" 2, 1893.

At Minnedosa, February 8, 1893. At Portage la Prairie, February 11, lt<93.

At Brandon, February 14, 1893. At Winnipeg, February 16, 1893.

The ^Minister further recommends that the provisions contained in the Order in
Council of December 12, 1891, with re.spect to the reservation of the minerals in the
school lands offered for sale in .January and February, 1892, be also made applicable to
the lands which it is now proposed to offer for sale — that is to say. that notwithstanfling
the provisions of clause 8 of the regulations for tlie disposal of Dominion lands authoiized
by Order in Council' of September 17, 18^9, the school lands to be offered at the proposed
sales in January and February next be not subject to a reser\ation to the Crown of the
mines and minerals therein, except in cases where the Director of the Geological .Survey
has reported the lands as likely to contain minerals of economic value, rlue note of which
has been made in the lists.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's appro\al.

JOHN J. M( GEE.

Clei-k of the Privy Council.

32 MAXirOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Extract /roHt a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council, apjM-oved
hy Hix Excellency on Fehrunry 2-:'i, lS9Jf.

On a lepiirt dated February 1, 189-t, from the Minister of the Interior, stating that
by the Act -56 Victoria, chapter 18, a copy of which is hereto annexed, authority was
given to the Minister of the Interior to grant, under direction of the Governor in Coun-
cil, homestead entry to the persons mentioned in the said Act for tlie parcels of school
lands therein described, upon proof to the satisfaction of the ^Minister of the Interior
that such persons were in bona fide occupation of the said lands prior to January 1,
1880, and that they have continued to occupy and cultivate them in accordance with
the homestead provisions of the Dominion Lands Act.

The Minister further states that the persons named in the following list, being
among those provided for by the Act before mentioned, ha\-ing furnished satisfactory
proof that they have occupied and cultivated the school lands hereinafter described in
accordance with the requirements of the said Act, that is to say : Alexander Mcilillan
for the N. E. \ of section 11, townsliip 13, range 1, east of the 1st Meridian ; Henry
Welsh for the S. E. \ of section 11, township 13, east of the 1st Meridian : Andrew
Hunter for the X. E. \ of section 29, township 14, range 2, east of the 1st Meridian :
James Simpson for the X. W. \ of section 29, township 5, range 5, west of the 1st
Meridian ; Thomas Guthrie for the X. E. \ of section 11, to^^^lship 14, range 1, west of
the 1st ^Meridian ; J. W. Walker for the X. W. i of section 29, township 13, range 2,
east of the 1st Meridian : and George Williams for the X. E. | of section 29, township
13, range 2, east of the 1st Meridian.

The Minister recommends that he be authorized to grant the above mentioned
persons homestead entries for the lands referred to.

The Committee advise that the requisite authority be granted.

JOHX J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract yro»« a Rejmrt of the Committee of the Honourable the Frivy Council, approved
by Hin ExceUency on March 10, 1894-

On a report dated March 2, 1894, from the Minister of the Interior, stating that
applications are from time to time made to the Department of the Interior for leases of
school lands in the Xorth-west Territories for grazing purposes, and that while authority
is given to the Minister by Order in Council of Xovember 22, 1887, to issue leases of
school lands in the Territories for hay purposes, no provision exists for issuing leases of
these lands for grazing purposes.

The ^Minister is of opinion that, as it is not probable that the value of school lands
in the Territories will for some time lae such that it would be in the interests of the
school endowment to oiler any large area of them for sale by public auction, and as it is
desirable that some revenue should be derived from them in the meantime, it would be
in the public interest as well as in that of the school endowment to issue leases of them
for grazing purposes, in cases where they are suitable for that purpose and where their
market value is not sufficient to warrant their being offered for sale at auction, and he
(the Minister) recommends that he be authorized to issue leases of school lands in the
Xorth-west Territories for grazing purposes subject to the following terms and condi-
tions : —

1. The lease shall be for a term not exceeding five years, and shall be revocable at
any time during the currency thereof when it may be deemed advisable by the Minister
of the Interior to offer the land so leased for sale by public auction in the interests of
the school endowment, or for any other reason. The lessee in such case sliall receive
one vear's notice of the intention of the Minister to terminate the lease, but shall not
be entitled to compensation for any improvements made by him on the land so leased.

2. The rental shall he at the rate <;pf 4 cents per acre per annum, except where

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

there is more than one applicant for any one lease, in which case the lease shall be put
up for tender at the upset rental of -4 cents per acre per annum.

3. The lessee shall not break up or cultivate rhe land included in the lea.se, and
shall not place upon itanv stiuctures other than such fences or corrals as may be required
for the keeping of his cattle, or temporary stables necessary for their shelter.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

ExTRACTyl'owj a Report of the Committee of the HonourobJe the I'rlry Coinici/, itp/n'oiyd
by His Excellency ott April 10, 1894-

On a report dated April 3, 1894, from the ^lini.ster of the Interior, stating that he
has been advised by the Department of Justice that where, on account of its railway
being constructed upon, along, or across a road allowance between sections of Dominion
lands it becomes necessary for the railway company to provide a substitutional high-
way (section 187, Railway Act, 1888), the company may acquire the land that may be
necessary for this purpose in school sections, in the same manner as the ai'eas of school
lands required for right of way and station grounds purposes, that is to say under the
provisions of section 99 of the Railway Act, 1888, on terms prescribed by the Governor
in Council.

The ^Minister states that the jiractice with respect to the disposal of areas of school
lands I'equired for purposes of right of way and station grounds has been to sell them
to railway companies at a price approved by Council ; and the Canadian Pacific Rail-
way Companj' having now applied for permission to acquire the school lands described
in the schedule hereto annexed for the purpose of providing substitutional highways, he
(the Minister) recommends that he be authorized to sell the said lands to that company
at the price per acre set opposite each parcel in the said schedule, the prices being the
same as those placed upon the areas required in the same school sections for right of
way purposes which have been approved by Your Excellency in Council.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Schedule of areas of School Lands ajiplied for by the Canadian Pacific Railway Com-
pany for the purpose of provifling substitutional highways.

Railway line.

Section
Part.

No.

Tp.

Range.

Area.

Price per acre.

Main line of Canadian Pacific Railway.

Manitolia South Western Colonization
Railway.

PtN.W.j

Pt. S.W. ;

Pt. S.W. :
Pt. N.E. :
Pt. N.E.:

Pt. N.E. ;

29
29
29
11
29
29

10
10

9
10
10

13 W.
18 W.
24 W.
26 W.
26 W.
16 W.

3.58

3.87
2.38
3.67
2.84
2.27

5 00

3 00
2 50
2 50

4 00

5 00

ExTR.^CT _/'/•<>»». (( Report of the Committee of the HonourahJe the Rrivi/ Comicil, approved
hy His Excellency on April 28, 1894-

Present — His Excellency in Council.

Whereas application has been made by the Trustees of Clifton Public School Dis-
trict, No. 278, North-west Territories for a grant of one acre of the North-east quar-
8.3—3

34 MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

t«r of section 22, township 16, range 4, west of the 2nd ileridian, adjuining the
North-east corner of the said section, for the purposes of a schiK)! site.

His Excellencj-, in view of the facts th.at the land in ijuestion is at the disposal of
the Government and is required for school purposes, is pleased, under the power vested
in him by clause -'U of ' The Dominion Lands Act ' and by and with the advice of the
Queen's Pri\y Council for Canada, to order that one acre of the North-east quarter of
section 22, township 16, range A, west of the 2nd ileridian, adjoining the North-east
corner of the said section, shall be, and the same is hereby granted to the Tiustees of
the Clifton Public School District, No. 278, North-west Territories, for the purposes C)f
a school site, subject to the payment of a patent fee of $10 (ten dollars).

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

ExTIiACT from a Report of the Committei' of the Hmionrahle the I'rivi/ Ccnncil, approved
fii/ His Excellency on April 2S, 1S94-

Present — His Excellency in Council.

Whereas an application has been made for the reservation for Indian School pur-
poses in connection with the Church of England ot legal subdivisions 4, .5 and 6 of sec-
tion 6, township 13, range 5, west of the 4th ileridian.

His Excellency is pleased, under the pro-sisions of cliapter 54 of the Revised Sta-
tutes of Canada, to order that the land mentioned shall be, and the same is hereby
reserved and placed under the control of the Superintendent General of Indian Affaii's
for Indian school purposes in connection with the said church.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Pri\y Council.

ExTEACT from (( Report of the Committee of the Houonrable the Priry C'oinicil, approved
by His Excellency on June 19, 1894.

Present — His Excellency in Council.

His Excellency, in pursuance of the provisions of section 31 of the Dt)minion Lands
Act, and by and w"ith the advice of the Queen's Privy Council for Canada, is pleased to
sanction aiid does hereby sanction, the issue on June 20, 1894, of a patent to the Board
of Trustees of tlie Protestant school district at Battleford, for the following lots, for
which those trustees had applied, namely, numbers 2.3, 24, 2.5, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31
and 32, on the north side of Twenty-fourtli Street : and numbers 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28.
29, 30, 31 and 32, on the south side of Twenty-fifth street, all west of Central avenue,
in the town of Battleford.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract from a Report of the Committee of the Houoitrahle the Privy Coinirll, approved
by His Excellency on June 19, 1S94-

Present — His Excellency in Council.

His Excellency, in \-irtue of the authority conferred upon him by section 31 of th^
' Dominion Lands Act,' and by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy Council fo''
Canada, is pleased to order and it is hereby ordered, that the following lots, situated
in tlie town of North Battleford, in the district of Saskatchewan, namely : Lots num-
bers 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, on the nortli side of Nineteenth street; and lots numbers 1, 2, 3,
4 and 5, on the south side of Twentieth street, all east of Central avenue, also lots num-

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS 35

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

bers 1, 2, :], 4 and 5, on the muth siile (f Nineteenth street, and lots numbers 1, 2, 3, 4
and 5, on the south side of Twentieth street, all west of Central a\enue, lie conveyed
for school purposes to the Roman Catliolie trustees of the school district of 8t. Vitaf at
Battleford, being Catliolic School District No. 11 of the North-west Territories.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privv Council.

ExTRACTyVom a Rpjiorl i if the Committfie of the Ilonotirahh- the I'rici/ Council, approved
h)j J/if E.ixeUencij on Jiuiicarij 14, ISO'i.

On a memoranflum dated December 24, lcS94, from the ilinister of the Interior,
recommending that the south-west ((uarter of section 4 and the south-east quarter of
section 14, both in township 44, range 20, west of the second principal Meridian, in
the district of Saskatchewan, be transferred to the Department of Indian Affairs for
the purpose of effecting an exchange of these lands with 'La Corporation des Oblats flu
Nord-ouest' and 'La Corporation Episcopale Catholique Romaine de la Saskatchewan,'
respectively for lands which have been given by these corporations foi' the purpose of
an Indian Industrial School at Duck Lake.

The Connnittee sulimit the above recommendation for Your Excellency s appro\al.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract _/>om n Report of the Committer of the Uonourahle the Privy Coinicif, approved
by His E.rceUeiicy on Juue 10, IS'.).').

The Committee, on the recommendation of the Minister of the Interior, advise that
the Order in Council of September 22, 1S93, reserving the north east quarter of section 16,
township 14, range 2, west of the 3ril Meridian, for Indian school purjioses, be cancelled,
as this land is not now rei|uired by the Department of Indian Affairs for that purpose.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract yVonj a Report of the Vommittee of the Honourable the Privy Council, approved
by His Excellency en July 13, 189.5.

On a report dated June 4, 1895, from the Minister of the Interior, stating that by
an Order in Council of March 16, 1894, the Minister of the Interior was authorized t^>
issue leases of school lands in the North-west Territories for grazing purposes under the
terms and conditions therein specified, and numerous applications ha\e been made to the
Department of the Interior for leases of school lands in Manitoba for similar purposes,
the ipiestion has arisen as to whether it would not be advisable in the interest of the
school endowment to issue such leases of school lands in Manitoba also.

The Minister further states that it was deemed advisable to obtain the \iews of the
Government of Manitoba on this point, and the question was therefore submitted to the
Provin rial Lands Commissi<jner, the Honourable Clifford Sifton, who expresses the
opinion that it would l)e ad\-isal)le that school lands in ^Manitoba which iire suitable for
grazing purposes should be so leased, and he sees no objection to the terms fixed by the
Order in Council of !March 16, 1894, for leases of school lands for the same purpose in
the North-west Territories, except that he considers the rental fixed b)' that Order in
Council, namely, four cents per acre, lower than that which could be obtained in Mani-
toba. Mr. Sifton was asked what he considered would be a fair rental, and in reply he
stated that in his opinion the rental obtained for swamp lands in Manitoba by the
83— 3i

36 MASITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Provincial Government, which from the statement furnished bv him, would iii)pear to
averaf;e abont 830 per quarter section per annum, would be fairly apjilicable t(j the
proposed grazing leases.

The Minister observes, however, that swamp lands are in their very nature excep-
tionally valuable as hay lands, and the I'ental obtained for them would thei'efore be
higher than would be paid for lands to be used for pasturage only, which is all the
proposed leases would allow.

"WTiile, therefore, he (the Minister) is of opinion that it is highly desirable iii the
interests of the school endowment that some revenue should be derived from such school
lands in Manitoba as are suitable for grazing purposes, and which it would not be
advisable for the present to offer for sale, he thinks that the average rental obtained for
swamp lands would be practically prohibitive if charged for pasture lands, the rental for
which, he considers, should not be more than 82-3 per t|uarter-section per annum, or six
cents per acre per annum.

The Minister, therefore, recommends that he be auth(jrized to issue leases for grazing
purposes of school lands in ^Manitoba upon the following terms and conditions : —

1. The lease shall be for a term not exceeding fi\e years and shall be revocable at
anv time during the currency thereof whenever it may be deemed ad\isable by the
Minister of the Interior to offer the land sn leased for sale by public auction, or for any
other reason. The lessee in such case shall receive one year's notice of the intention of
the Minister to terminate the lease, hut shall not be entitled to compensation for any
improvements made by him on the lands so leased.

2. The rental shall be at the rate of six cents per acre per annum, except where
there is more than one applicant for any one lease, in which case the lease shall be put
up for tender at the upset rental of six cents per acre per annum.

3. The lessee shall not break up or cultivate the land included in the lease, and
shall not place upon it any structure other than such fences or corrals as may be required
for keeping his cattle, or temporary staljles for their shelter.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHX J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

E.XTRACT from a Beport of the Committee of the Honourable thi- Friry Couneil, approved
by I/i-f E.i-cellencij on Spptember 21, 1895.

On a report dated September 5, 1895, from the ^Minister of the Interior, stating
that the secretary of the Beaver Public Schnol District, No. 374, of the North-west
Territories has applied for one square acre adjoining the north-east corner of the north-
east quarter of section 3-5, township 26, range 7, west of the 2nd 3Ieridian, to be used

as a school site.

The Minister further states that the land applied for is a portion of the reservation
for the subsidy to the Manitoba and North-western Railway Company, but the genei'al
manao-er of that company states that he sees no objection to the making of the proposed

grant.

The Minister, therefore, recommends that the above described piece of land be
"ranted to the said school district under the terms and conditions set forth in clause 31
of the Dominion Lands Act, and that letters patent therefor issue, the trusts and uses
to which the grant is to be subject being expressed therein.

The Committee submit the foregoing reconunendation for Your Excellency's
approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

MANITOBA SC/WOL LANDS 37

•SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Extract from a Re[>i'rl of llie Committee of the Hononrahh the Privy Council, apin'overj
by His Excellency on October 10, 189-5.

On a memorandum dated October 1, 1895, from the Minister of the Interior, recom-
mending that under the provisions of section 31 of the Dominion Lands Act he be
authorized to convev to the trustees of the Holy Cross Roman Catholic Separate Scliool
District Xo. 8 of the North-west Territories, for school purposes, the following lots situated
in the town of Macleod, in the district of Alberta, namely : lots Nos. 6, 7, 'S and 9
south of Twenty-first street, west of Fifth avenue.

The Committee advise that the requisite authority be granted.

JOHX J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privv Council.

Treasury Department, Maxitoba,

WixxiPEG, June 12, 1896.
The Honourable

The ^linister of Finance,
Ottawa, Out.

As the number of schools in the province is steadily increasing and the claims for
provincial assistance to these schools is correspondingly on tlie increase, and as the net
re\'euues of the province are, from their nature, practicallv stationary, so that, taking
^nto consideration the other increasing needs of the province, the school grants cannot
be maintained out of tlie ordinary revenue of the province, I have to ask that a pay-
ment of •'?50,U0() be made to the province out of the School Lands Fund in the hands of
the Dominion belonging to the province.

In support of this request I might point out for your information that in the year
I8i"^<7 there was only 506 schools and teaching standards or departments of schools in the
province, and the total amount paid as government grants to such schools was •'55-1,478. 75.
During the vear 1895 there were 98"2 scliools or teaching departments which received
8U2,984..39"

You will remember that in 1879 the sum of 820,000 and in 1883 a further sum of
$10,000 was paid to the province out of this fund, but since the latter date nothing has
been withdrawn. This year, owing to the facts before stated, it was deemed by the
Government to be but right that the pro\-ince should withdraw the said sum of -SSO.OOO,
and this amount was consequently placed in the estimates revenue at the last session of
the lijcal legislature.

D. H. McMILLAX,

Provincial Treasurer.

E.\tract from a Beport of tlf Committee of the Honourable the Friry Con aril, approved
by His Excellency on July 6, 1896.

On a report dated June 30, 1896, from theMinister of the Interior, submitting that
b}- the Order in Council of July 13, 1895, the Minister of the Interior is authorized to
issue leases of school lands in the Province of ^lanitoba, for grazing purposes, subject to
certain terms and conditions mentioned tlierein.

Clause 1 of the terms and conditions under which the leases are issued is as follows : —
1 . ' The lease shall be for a term not exceeding five years and shall be revocable at
any. time during the currency thereof whene\er it may be deemed advisable by the
Minister of the Interior to offer the land so leased for sale by public auction, or for any
other reason. The lessee in such case shall receive one year's notice of the intention of
the ^Minister to terminate the lease, but shall not be entitled to compensation for any
improvements made liy him on the lands so leased.'

38 M A XI TO B A SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII.. A. 1902

The Minister states, liowever, that it is represented that the length of n^itice re-
ijuired by the foregoing clause to be given to the lessee, in order to terminate the lease
during its currency, will have the efTect of preventing the sale of school lands included
in such leases at any time prior to tlie expiration of tiie leases, which lands might other-
wise be disposed of to the advantage of the Sciiool Endowment Fund.

The ^Minister desires to point out in this connection that as the success of the
auction sales of school lands is largely dependent on the result of the preceding harvest
in Manitoba, the question as to the advisability of holding an auction sale of these lands
cannot well be decided until the result of the harvest is known, that is to say, luitil
October or November, and as it is the practice to hold the sales in the months of January
and February following, this being found to be the most suitable time, it would be im-
possible to include in such sales any school lands which might be under lease, and at the
same time to give the one j'ear's notice to the lessee as required by the Order in Council
of July 13, 1895.

The ISIinister is of opinion thac it is most desirable the Minister of the Interior
should be in a position to withdraw from the operations of the lease any school lands
which he niay deem it advisable in the interests of the school endowment to offer for
sale by public auction, and he considers that a notice of three months would amply pro-
tect the lessee, especially as the lease would not terminate until after the end of the
grazing season in any year.

The Minister, therefore, reconnnends that the Oidei- in Council of July \'^, 1895, be
amended by providing that the notice required to be given to the lessee under clause 1
of the terms and conditions of the said Order in Council be three months instead of one
year.

Tlie Committee submit the above recommendation for Your Excellency's approval.*

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

FixANCK Department,

Ottawa, August 24, 1896.
The Honourable D. H. McMillan,

Provincial Ti'easurer of Manitoba, Winnipeg, Man.

Your letter of July 12 arrived here on the eve of the election and owing to the
upset of the late Government was placed aside, without being acknowledged as it should
have been.

The matter has been brought to the attention of Mr. Fielding, who has seen Mr.
Sifton on the subject, and I regret to say that it is impossible to make an advance out
of the School Lands Fund without special legislation, as you will see by reference to 46
Vic, cap. 17, section 20 (1883) that the interest only can be paid to the province.

The special atlvances which you mention in the last paragraph oi your letter were
nuide under special Acts, vide 41 Tic. cap. 13 (1878) and 47 Vic. cap. 7 (1884).

J. M. COURTNEY,.

Deputy Minister of Finance.

Treasury Department, Manitoba,

Winnipeg, December 17, 1896.
The Honourable

The ^Minister of Finance,
Ottawa.

Under the provisions of the Statute "f the Dominion of Canada, 41 Vic,
chap. 13, the Province of Manitoba received from the Dominion as an advance on
account of the School Lands Fund the sum of ■•?20,000 in July and August, 1879.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LASDS 39.

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

The leniaining SlOjOUU iuitluirized to be paid, also, by the above statute, was not
paid over until ISSI, wlien the statute 47 Vic. chap. 7, after reciting the above facts,
ai;aiu authorized the reniainiiij; •'510,000 to be paid, and also authorizes a further
advance of •'530,000 on account of the said fund. The .SlOiOOO amount was paid
over in 188-t, but the •'530,000 amount has never Ijeen received by the pi-ovince.

I have therefore to ask that the said sum of ■'530,000 be at once paid o\er, and
charged to the School Lands Fund Account.

D. H. McMillan,

Provincial Treasurer.

Finance UEP.\nT\iENT.

Ott.\wa, .Januarv (i, 1897.
Hon. D. H. McMillan,

Provincial Treasurer,

Winnipeg, Man.

Having further reference to your letter of the 17th ultimo, with reference to an
advance to the Province of Manitoba of the sum of .^30,000 authorized by Act 47 Vict,
chap. 7, 1 have the honour to state that I am advised bvthe Deputy Minister of .Justice that
the Act in question was repealed by Act 49 Vic. chap. 4 — ' respecting the Revised
Statutes of Canada ' (See section .5, subsection 2 of that Act and schedule A of the
Revised Statutes at page 49) and it cannot, therefore, be invoked as authority for the
advance applied for.

J. M. COURTNEY,

Deputy Minister of Finance.

Extract /'ro//* a Rpiiart af the Commitlee of the Hunourahle the I'rivij CnHiif}/, ajijiroved
III/ His E.irelleiici/ an Fehrudry .,'J, 1S97.

On a memorandum dated .January 'IS), 1897, from the j\[ini.ster of the Interior,
stating that on .January 14, 189-5. an Order in Council was passed recommending that
the south-west quarter of section 4, and tiie south-east quarter of section 14, both in
township 44. range 20, west of the 2nd Meridian, be transferred to the Department
of Indian Aft'airs for the purpose of etiecting an exchange of these lands with ' La
Corporation des Oblats du Nord-Ouest ' and ' La Corporation Episcopale Catholique
Romaine de la Saskatchewan ' respectivelj', for lands which had been given by these
Corporations for the purpose of an Indian industrial school at Duck Lake. A com-
munication has been received from the Department of Indian Affairs asking that the
north-east quarter of section 4, township 44, range 2.5, west of the 2nd Meridian, be
substituted for the south-east quarter of Section 14, alx)ve mentioned, and that the
title thereto be vested in 'La Corporation Episcopale Catholique Romaine de la Saskat-
chewan.'

The Minister recommends, as the quarter section asked to be substituted for the
south-east quarter of section 14 is available, that the request of the Department of
Indian Affairs be granted.

The Committee submit tlie foregoing for Your Excellency's approval.

.JOHN .J. MCGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Treasury Department, Manitoba,

WixNiPEG, March 20, 1897.
The Honourable,

The Minister of Finance,
Ottawa.

I beg to ask that the sum of •'5100,000 be paid to the Province of ^lanitoba, as
early as possible in this year, out of the Manitoba Sheool Lands Fund in the hands of the
Dominion Government.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

As a reason for such request I miglit state that the schools of the pro\-ince are
greatly increasing in number, and the sparseness of the population makes it exceedingly
ditficult to maintain schools in all the school districts that have been opened up : while
the limited resources of the province make it next to impossible to maintain the grants
out of the ordinary funds of the province.

The increasing demands of the public schools have been constant, and the Govern-
ment grant has been increased from .SeS.-SSO in 1886-7 to .f 185,000 in 1897, notwith-
standing the fact that in 1892 the grant per school was reduced from .? 150 to 8130.
It is considered impossible to at present further decrease these grants as the result would
be to close up a number of schools.

The lands set aside by the Dominion Government in 1SS3 as an endowment to
public schools in Manitoba amounted to 2,000,000 acres, of which during the past 14
yeai-s only about 70,000 acres, or one-thirtieth of the whole has been sold. It is ini-
ipossible to accurately estimate the value of the unsold lands, but a safe valuation based
on present prices would be between •'?2.50 and S7 per acre, making this endciwment for
the lands yet to be sold worth from .$5,000,000 to i^l 4,000,000. ' Taking into account
the circumstances of the country and the hea\'y burdens necessarily imposed on the
early settlers in municipal and school taxation, it is astonishing to note that the
benefits of this educational endowment have largely been withheld from the people at a
time in the history of the province when they are most needed. We are of opinion that
the province is as much, if not more, in need of assistance from this fund now than it
will be in the future years, when the development of the province and the growth of
the pcipulation will have rendered the burdens on the individual school districts much
lighter than they are at present.

The request for -8100,000 in this year is, therefore, we believe, justifiable and
necessary for the following reasons : —

1. Because it is not the intention of Parliament that the trust should enure to the
benefit of future generations only. That is shown by the provisions for sale which were
almost immetliately acted upon.

2. The scattered settlements render the burden of school taxation at the present
time most onerous. If it is intended to settle "the Province the schools cannot be
decreased in number, as the province must offer the best pos.sible educational inducements.

I think, in view of the needs of this province as hereinbefore indicated, it is
desirable that the Dominion Government should take authority from Parliament to pay
over to this province from time to time, as may be deemed necessary, the proceeds of
school lands already sold.

1). H. McMillan,

Provincial Treasurer.

Finance Department,

Ottawa. March 24, 1897.
Hon. D. H. McMillan,
Provincial Treasurer,

Winnipeg, ilanitoba.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 20th instant,
with reference to advancing to the Province of Slanitoba the sum of -SIOO.OOO out of
the Manitoba School Lands Fund, and to say that the matter therein referred to will
receive careful consideration.

J. M. COURTNEY,

Deputy 3Iinister of Finance.

MAXITOHA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Russell House,
Ottawa, Mav 11

lf<97

The Honourable

The Minister of Finance,
Ottawa,

I liave the Iwnour to submit herewith for your information and consideration
a memorandum in support of the request made in my letter to you dated March 20
last, asking that the Province of Manitoba may receive out of the ilanitoba School
Lands Fund, during the present year, the sum of $100,000.

At the same time I think some provision should be made so that the province may
receive, from time to time, further sums from this fund, so as to supplement the very
limited resources of the province in maintaining anything like a reasonable public
school system.

D. H. McMillan,

Prov. Treas. of Manitoba.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS FUND.

The total amount at credit to the fund at December 31, 1896, was .S438,484.45.

The Government of the Province of Manitoba ask that power be given the province
to, from time to time, withdraw from this fund as may be required, and that for this
year the province be allowed to withdraw §100,000 for the reasons set forth in the
accompanying cop)' of a letter sent to the Honourable Minister of Finance on March
20, 1897, to which might be added the following: —

The number of schools anrl teaching departments in the pro\"inee ha\e been rapidly
increasing. In 1888 there were only 547 of these schools, and in 1896 there were
1,026.

In some parts of the province there ai'e large quantities of lands held by the
Dominion Government, by railroad corporations, etc., from which no taxes can be col-
lected, and the sparseness of jiopulation incident, in part, to the lands being so held
makes the burden of maintaining schools a very heavy one upon the poor settlers, who,
in so many cases, have very insutlicient means to meet the numerous dithculties of
pioneer life : and the school districts cannot, for many reasons, be made very large.
With the increase of settlement this burden will not fall so heavily upon the early
settlers, and the necessity for government aid will not be so keenly felt.

The necessity and advisability of paving over to the province portions of this fund
was admitted b)' the late Government, and the statute of 41 Vie, chap. 13, authorized
an advance of S30,000 from the fund, in sums of 1510,000 in each of the years 1878-9,
1879-80 and 1880-1 ; of this, ■?20,000 was paid over, but in 1884 the other S^lO.OOOnot
having laean paid, the statute 47 Vic, chap. 7, again authorizes the payment of the same,
and also of the further sum of .$30,000 for the years 1881-2, 1882-3 "and 1883-4. The
f 10,000 item was then jiaid to the pro\ince, but nothing more has since been received
out of the fund.

The Honourable

The Minister of Finance,
Ottawa, Ont.

Treasury Department,

Winnipeg, February 14, 1898.

I beg to remind you that the province made application at the same time (in
May, 1897) for $100,000 in aid of the jniblic schools of the province for the year 1897,
with power to draw further amounts, from time to time, in succeeding years, and that a
Bill to give eft'ect to this was introduced into the Dominion House by you last j-ear, but
owing to the session being too far advanced, the matter did not then receive attention.

42 MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

I now respectfully urge that the ■•? 100,000 asked last year, as well as an additional
8100,000 to assist the schools in the year 1S9S, be paifl to tlie province as soon as possible.

D. H. McMillan,

Pro\ inoial Treasurer.

FiNANCH Department,

Ottawa, February IS, 1898.
The Honourable

The Provincial Treasurer of ilanitoba,
Winnipeg, ^Manitoba.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 14th instant,
with inclosure, drawing attention to the claims of the Province of ^Manitoba, and also
to the application of the province for aid in connection with the public schools of the
province, and to say that the matter referred to in your letter will receive very careful
consideration.

J. M. COURTNEY,

Deputy Minister of Finance.

Ottawa, March 21, 1898.
Hon. D. H. .McMillan,

Provincial Treasurer,
Winnipeg, Man.

With reference to our several interviews on the subject of certain claims of the

Government of the Province of ^Manitoba, that is to say : —

* * * * * * *

3. The application for an advance from the Manitoba School Fund :

I have the honour to inform vou as follows : —

* * *" * * * *

I have given notice of the resolution respecting the advance from the Manitoba
School Fund which was placed on the notice paper last year, but not proceeded with.

W. S. FIELDING,

Minister of Finance.

Extract y;v/;(i a Report n/the L'lnninitlee of llit llononrahh- t}o' I'l-irif CoimciJ, njiproved
htj His Excellency on June 27, 1898.

On a report dated June 18, 1898, from the Minister of the Interioi', stating that
by Order in Council dated Januarv 22, 1872, a block of land at Winnipeg, containing
about 50 acres, was reserved for pul:)lic purposes out of the lands formerly constituting
the reservation made by the Hudson's Bay Company at Upper Fort Garry. Subse-
ijuently, by Order in Council of April 10, 1874, the easterly half of this block of land,
on which the Pro\incial Government builflings are situated, was transferred to the
Province of Manitoba.

The ^Minister further states it is now represented that a portion of the balance of
the Dominion reserve is required by the University of Manitoba, and he is of the opinion
that this application should be complied with.

The ]NIinist<?r recommends that the portion of the said reserve 'shewn in ci>loured
pink on the annexed plan, and containing about 6-()0 acres, be granted ti:> the Govern-
ment of the Province of 3Ianit(:)ba for educational purposes.

The Committee submit the same for Your E.xeellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privv Council.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS 48

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Extract /;'om n Jiejiort <>f the CommiW-K af On- lloiniiirnhlr ihe Privif CoHtn-il, (ijipron'rl
by His £.rrf//finfy im July 7, 1S98.

On a report dated June 28, 1898, from the Minister of the Interior, submitting that
lie has received fnira the Honourable the Provincial Secretary for Manitoba a copy of
an Order in Couiicil passed by the Government of Manitoba and dated June 9, 1898,
which reads as follows : —

'That the Dominion Govennnent be requested to offer for sale by public auction at
convenient points in the Province of Manitoba as early during the summer of 1898 as
practicable, all the school lands in the said province l_\-ing within eight miles of any
constructed line of railway, and such other parcels as they may deem advisable to sell
at such upset price as to each parcel as may be fixed by the Dominion Government
previous to such sale, but so that in no case shall the minimum price of any parcel be
less than §5 per acre; and so far as practicable said lands to be sold in (piarter section
parcels.'

The Minister states that no sales of school lands have been held since 1893, and as
there appears now to be a greater demand for these lands than for a few years past, and
as the price of grain is high, with the prospect of an abundant harvest, he is of opinion
that the present season would be a most favourable time for placing some of the
Manitoba school lands on the market.

The Minister further states that the lands which it is proposed should be offered for
sale are the vacant ([uarter sections of school lands lying within a radius of from six to
eight miles of certain lines of railway in the Province of Manitoba, as well as a certain
number outside that radius, applications to purchase which have been received, or which
are being cultivated under permits issued by the Department of the Interior.

That these lands are now being inspected and valued, but until the reports of the
inspectors are received it is impossible to submit a complete list of the lands it is pro
posed to offer, with the upset prices to be placed thereon, or to determine the dates of sale.

The Minister i-eeommends, as it is most desirable, both in the public interest and
in that of the school lands endowment fund, that ample notice should be given before
the sale takes place, that he, the Minister, be now authorized to offer for sale at public
auction during the present season the quarter sections of school lands above referred to
at such points in the ]iro\ince and on such dates as he may hereafter determine, and
that the upset price per acre at which each parcel shall be offered shall be the value
placed thereon by the inspector, provided however, that in no case shall any land be
offered at a lower upset price than ffO per acre.

The Committee submit the above recommendations for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Pri\y Council.

Extract /";-oj)j n Report of the Committee of the Honourahle the Privy Council, approved
liy His Excellency on October 6, 1S9S.
Present — His Excellency in Council.

His Excellency, in virtue of the pro^•isions of clause 31 of the Dominion Lands
Act, and by and with the advice of the (Queen's Pri\-}- Council for Canada, is pleased to
order that section 3-5, township 11, range 29, west of the 1st Dominion lands meridian,
shall be, and the same is hereby set apart and appropriated for the purposes of the
Indian Industrial School at Elkhorn.

JOHN J." McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.

"WixNiPEG, December 13, 1898.
The Honourable

The Minister of Finance,

Ottawa, Ont.
I wish on behalf of the Government of the Province of Manitoba once more to
press our claim to have the sum f)f three hundred thousand dollars (!t300,000) placed
to the credit of the province out of the ^lanitoba School Lands Fund.

44 MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

I need scarcely repeat the arguments in favour of our contention vhich liave been
already several times urged upon you and your Government. Thev were set out in
detail in a communication from the Treasurer of this province, dated" March 20, 1897,
addressed to you. Some of the arguments which were of importance then are, under
present circumstances, of even greater force. It was urged that the request then made
was justifiable and necessary because : —

1. Parliament had never intended that the endowment should enure to the benefit
of future generations only, as shown by the provisions for sale which were almost im-
mediately acted upon.

'1. The scattered settlements render the burden of school taxation most onerous at
the present time. The schools cannot be decreased in number, as the province must
offer the Ijest possible educational inducement.

It was also pointed out as a remarkable thing tliat the benefits of the endowment
should be withheld from the province at the very time when they were most needed.
As I have stated, thesela.st mentioned statements to-day apply with even greater force than
in !March, 1897. Since that date the population of the province has greatly increased.
!Many of the ne^N' settlers are foreigners with little or no acijuaiutance with the English
language or with British institutions, yet it is well known they are eager to learn the
language and to adopt the customs of the counti-y, and provision for the education of
their children must be made as soon as possible. I may niention also that many schools
that withdrew from the operation of the public school system after the passage of the
Act of 1890 have been reorganized and are apph-ing for the legislative grant. There
were twice as many of these schools in the first half of 1898 as there were in 1897.

I may futher add that the value of the Manitoba school lands has unquestionably
materially advanced since March, 1897. The amount asked for is extremely small
compared with the aggregate value of the land. Parliament when it made the grant
never surely imagined that thirty years afterwards it would still be useless for the pur-
pose for which it was given.

The question has already been discussed in the House of Commons, and in the
Senate, with unfortunate results in the latter chamber. I am, however, convinced that
a representation of tlie case, especially in consideration of the circumstances that have
arisen since then, would lead to the adoption of a different view. It is unfortunate that
the settlers should be hampered more than is absolutely necessary at tliis stage of the
history of the province. The children of the present day are certainly in justice as
much entitled to the benefits of the trust as those of a generation hence.

I enclose herewith figures which will show the position of the pro^^ince with regard
to its educational expenditure, it being noted that the revenue of the province has
been practically stationary for the last ten years.

J. H. CAMERON,

Attorney General.

Tunc 30 ' Educational Total Ordinary

Grants. Revenue.

1885-6 61,000 00 474,503 50

1886-7 IKi.OOO 00 493,.'^33 96

1887-8 85,000 00 .M 2, 401 .54

1888 (last half) 122.000 00 250,248 84

1889 120,000 00 1 486.990 43

1890 1 23, otK) 00 I 484.199 .S6

1891 123.500 00 I 490,916 82

1892 ; 124,272 96 513,539 15

1893 133.6,^38 1 514,648 40

1894 124.272 96 490,934 83

1895 _ 123.600 00 579,957 96

1896 ■ 158.i;0<J 00 535.014 61

1897 lS3.(iOO 00 52!t.l04 17

1898 ...: 206,100 00 .522.180 69

1899 (estimated) . . . -r ... 250,000 00; .530.000 00

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Year.

1888

188!) ..

1090

1891

1892

1893

1894

189,1

1896

1897

1898

1899 (estimated).

No. School Districts organized.

007

609

719

774

821

876

916

956

985
1,018

1,116 (2nd half 1,136, estimated).
1,216

Finance Department,

Ottawa, December 20,

1898.

The Honourable

The Attorney (jeneial

Winnipeg, Manitoba.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 1.3th instant,
with inelosure, respecting your claim to liave the sum of .$300,0 0 placed to the credit
of the province out of the Manitoba School Lands Fund, and to say that the same will
receive due consideration.

J. M. COURTNEY,

Deputy Minister of Finance.

Extract yVoHi (I 7?e;jov< of the Conunittee oj tlie Hononnihh: thi' Pririj (Jonni-il, upproved
hy His Excellency 07i May 16, 1899.

Present — His Excellency in Council.

AVhereas, by the Order in Council of December 18, 1897, the Minister of the Interior
is authorized to dispose of school lands required for irrigation works at such rates of
compensation as he may deem warranted by the circumstances, having due regard to the
interest.s of the School Endowment Fund ;

And whereas, in the case of lands required in school sections for the right of way of
irrigation ditches, as the area necessary for this purpose would be ver^' small, and as in
order to sell or rent the land it would fir.st be necessary to have the area defined by
actual survey, the cost of which would be out of all proportion to the value of the land,
the question arose whether it would not be in the public interest, as well as in that of
the school endowment to allow a free right of way for such ditches through school
sections, especially as the establishment of a system of irrigation would enhance the
value of sehoc)l lands in the vicinity.

And whereas, the DeparUiient of Justice, to whom the question was referred, has
given the opinion that it would be competent for the Governor in Council to issue
licenses of occupation f(.)r the right of way of irrigation ditches through school sections
free of charge, if, as represented, the value of school lands would be enhanced by the
establishment of irrigation works ;

Therefore His Excellency, by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada, is pleased, in view of the foregoing facts, and of the further fact that it would
be in the public interest and in that of the School Endowment Fund to encourage a
system of irrigation in the North-west Territories, to authorize, and does hereby
authorize the Minister of the Interior to issue licenses of occupation of the lands required
for the right of way of irrigation ditches through school sections free of cliarge.

46 MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

His Excellency is further pleased to order, that the lands required for reservoir
purposes in school sections shall be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of the
Order in Council of December 18, 1897, before referred to.

JOHN J. .McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

E.\TRACT yVoHJ a Report of the Vomniittee of the Hotiounihle the Privy Counci/, approved
hjj Hit! Excellency on January 30, 1900.

Present — His Excellency in Council.

'Whereas, by an Order of the Governor in Council, dated March 16, 1894, the
Minister of the Intei'ior was authorized to issue leases of school lands in the North-west
Territories for grazing purposes, subject to certain terms and conditions mentioned
therein, clause 1 of such terms and conditions being as follows :

' 1. The lease shall be for a term not exceeding r> ye^rs, and sliall be revocable at
anv time during the currency thereof when it may Ise deemed advisable by the Minister
of the Interior to ofier the land so leased for sale by public auction in the interests oi the
school endowment, or for any other reason. The lessee in such case shall receive one year's
notice of the intention of the ^linister to terminate the lease, but shall not be entitled to
compensation for any improvements made by him on the land so leased.'

And whereas it is represented that the length of the notice required liv the fore-
going clause to be given to the lessee in order to terminate the lea.se during its currency
will have the effect of preventing the .sale of school lands included in such leases at any
time prior to the expiration of the same, which land might otherwise be disposed of to
the advantage of the school endowment fund :

And whereas it is deemed desirable that tlie ilinister of the Interior should be in
a position to withdraw from the operation of the lease any school lands which he may
deem it advisable in the interests of the school endowment to ofler for sale by public
auction : and it is considered that a notice of three months would amply protect the
lessee, especially as any sale of school lands which may be held is likely to take place at
the end of the year, in which case the lease would not be terminated until after the
close of the grazing season.

Therefore His Excellency, by and with the advice of the Queen's Privy Council for
Canada, is pleased to order and direct that the Order in Council of March 16, 1894,
shall be and the same is hereby amended by providing that the notice required to be
given to the lessee under clause 1 of the terms and conditions of the .said Order in
Coimeil shall be three months instead of one year.

JOHN J. McGEE.

Clerk of the Privv Council.

WiN'xiPEfi, February 1, 1900.
The Honourable

Tiie Secretary of State,

Ottawa, Ontario.

I have the honour to ask when it will be convenient tor the Government of Canada
to meet a representati\e of that of JIanitoba to discuss the question of the ad^■isability
of transferring to this Government the money representing the proceeds of the sales of
school lands in this province now in the hands of the Government of Canada, and also
the balance of school lands remaining unsold.

I know that the House being now in session the time of the Ministers of the Crown
will be very much taken up, and consequently I deem it better to write yt)u in advance
before asking one of my colleagues to proceed to the capital.

HUGH J. MACDONALD,

Attorney General.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS 4,7

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Ottawa, Febi-uaiy G, 1900.
The Honourable Hugh John Macdonald,

Attorney Oeneral, Winnipeg, Man.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the l.st instant, a.sk-
ing \\hen it would be con^■eIuent for the Canadian Government to receive a re|)resenta-
tive of that of Manitoba to discuss certain questions connected with the subject of
scliool lands in the Province of ^Manitoba. The Secretary of State will take an early
opportunity of laying your coinnuniication before his colleagues for their consideration.

JOSEPH pope:,

Under-Secretary of State.

Extract y/-o»« a Report of the. Cominittri- of the I/onourah/e the J'rivi/ Coinici/, appnn-ed
by His Excellency on March ','7, 1000.

On a report dated March 16, 1900, from the Acting Minister of the Inteiior, stat-
ing tliat an application has been made by the Canadian Pacific Railway Coinpanj' for
permission to accpiire the land necessary for the right of way of the McGregor and
Varcoe and Snowtlake branches of their railwaj', through certain school sections, the
land applied for being described in the schedule hereto attached.

The ^Minister observes that by clause 99 of the Railway Act it is provided that a
railway company may acquire out of lands vested in Her Majestv as much of such land
as is necessary for the right of way and other purposes of the railway on such terms as the
Governor in Council may prescribe, and the Department of Justice has advised that this
clause supersedes clause 23 of the Dominion Lands Act, which directs that all sales of
.school lands shall be at pulalic auction.

The ^Minister further states that it has been the practice in regard to applications
of this kind to submit for the approval of Your Excellency in Council a valuation of the
lands applied for, and upon such valuation being approved, to sell the land to the appli-
cants at such valuation. In the present instance the lands required for the McGregor
and Varcoe branch have been examined \>y inspectors appointed for that purpose, and
said land have been valued at prices ranging from $2 to $4 an acre. The two parcels
required for the SnowflakD branch of the railway have also been inspected, and valued
at ^6 and §7 an acre respecti\'ely.

The Minister recommends, as it is not the practice of the Department of the
Interior to sell any school lands at a lower price than §5 an acre, that that be the
minimum price at which any of the lands now applied for be sold, and that he be
authorized to dispose of the parcels required for the McGregor and Vaicoe and Snow-
flake branches of the railway at the price set opposite each parcel in the schedule here-
to attached.

The Committee submit the foregoing for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Schedule of school lands applied for by theCauadian Pacific Kailway Company for the
right of way of the McGregor and Varcoe and Snowflake branches of the railway,
showing, set opposite thereto, the price at which it is recommended eacli parcel be
sold.

McGregor and varcoe branch, Canadian pacific railway.

S.E. ill..
N.W. i29.
X.E. i29..
S.W. ill.
S.W. i 29.
S.E. i2il..

.Section.

Township.

12
12
12
12
12
12

Range.

11 \V

12 W

12 W
11 W

13 W
13 W

Meridian.

1st
1st
1st
1st
1st
1st

Acreage.

1&4
622
6 22
6-85
6-25
613

Valuation.

86 per acre.

.55

|S5 ..

SNOWFLAKE BRANCH, CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY.

N.E. i 29.
S.W. ill

10 vv
low

1st
1st

5 63
4-57

S7 per acre.
.?6

Extract from a Report of tlv Committee vf the lluninnahle tlie Privy CoinicU, approved
by His Excelleney on May 1, 1900.

On a report dated April 18, 1900, from the Aetinu Minister nf the Interior, stating
that during the summer of 1898, a number of school sections in tlie province of Mani-
toba were inspected and valued for the purposes of determining the upset price to be
placed on them for the auction sales which it was then prc>posed to hold in the autumn
of that year.

The [Minister further states that in consequence, however, of the lateness of the
harvest operations in 1898, owing to the wet season, it was found necessary to postpone
these .sales, and none have since been held.

The Minister further states it is now represented to him that the demand for school
lands has greatly increased and that it would be in the interest of the School Endowment
Fund, as well as in that of settlement in Manitoba, that a number of these lands should
be placed in the market this summer and that the best time for this purpose would be
in the month of June, that being the time of year for breaking new land.

The lands which it is proposed to offer for sale are those which were inspected for
the purpose in 1898, that is to say, undisposed of school lands within a radius of eight
miles of any line of railway in the pro\-ince, as well as a certain number outside that
radius, for which application had been made.

The Minister, therefore, recommends that he be authorized to offer for sale h\ pub-
lic auction during the month of June, 1900, at such places in the province of ilanitoba
and on such dates as he may determine, the school lands which have been inspected for
this purpose, provided, however, that in no case shall any school lands be offered at a
lower upset price than S-d per acre.

The Minister observes that the regulations \\'ith respect to government advertising
prohibit more than three insertions of an advertisement in any weekly newspaper, and,
as in his opinion this would not be sufficient for the purposes of the auction sales of
school lands, as it is most important that they should be well advertised, he recommends
that the provision of the regulations above referred to, prohibiting more than three
insertions of an advertisement in a weekly newspaper, be suspended in so far as auction
sales of school lands are concerned.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

MAXITOr.A smodf, LANDS 49

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

KxTKACT friitii, a Report of the Commiltcr of tic Honoundile the I'l-ivt/ Cotmi-il, (ipiivovi'd
hil Ilis ?:.vcM,'ncji oil Jill 11 . 0, V.)()0.

On a report dated June 21, 19()n, tVimi the Acting Ministei- of the lntei-i(ir, suh-

nu.Jng as follows —in regard to an application made by Mr. Robert Fi.sher for hoi

stead entry for the south-west quarter of section 25, township 1 1, range 5 east of the
first meridian, which is school land, under tlie provisions of the Act -TG Vi<-toria,
chapter IS.

Uy the said Act, -"jG Victoria, chapter 18, it is provided that the Mini.ster of the
fntei'ioi', under the direction of the Go^'ernor in Council, may grant to the persons men-
tioned in the said Act, of whom the present applicant, Mr. Robert Fisher, is one, home-
stead entry for the quarter-sections of school land set opposite their respective names,
upon proof to the satisfaction of the Minister that such persons were in bona fide occu-
pation of the said land prior to the 1st of January, 1880, and that they have continued
to occupy and cultivate it from that date, in accordance with the requirements of thi'

1 )ominion Lands Act relating to homestead entry. One of the conditions of the Dominion
Ijaiids Act relating to homestead entry is to the effect that the homesteader must actu-
ally' I'cside on his homestead for a certain jjeriod, and as it was shown by the evidence
filed by Mr. Fisher that he did not reside on the school land for which he desired home-
stead entiT, it was impossible at that time to grant him entry for the scliool land
applied for.

It is however pro^irled by clause i of an Act passed during the present session of
Parliament to amend the Doa\inion Lands Act, and which has been assented to, but
not yet chaptered, that ' If tlie settler has his permanent residence upon farming land
owned by him in the vicinity of his homestead, the re(;[uirements of this Act as to resi-
dence may be satisfied by residence upon the said land.'

The Minister in view of the foregoing provision, is of the opinion that the obstacle
to the grant of homestead entry to Mr. Robert Fisher for the south-west quarter of sec-
tion 25, township 11, range 5 east of the first meridian is removed, as Mr. Fisher owns
the quarter-section adjoining the one now applied for and has lived on it for a number
of years.

The Minister observes that Mr. Robert Fisher purchased this quarter-section of
school land for which he now asks homestead entrv, at public auction in 1892, and that
the condition of actual residence on the land a()plied for is done awav with bv the
amendment to the Dominion Lands Act, passefl during the present session of Piirlia-
m(>nt and before referred to.

The Minister recommends that he be authorized to grant homestead entry to
Robert Fisher for the south-west quarter of section 25, township 11, range 5 east of the
first meridian, under the provisions of the Act 56 Victoria, chapter 18, and sub-clause

2 of the Act to amend the Dominion Lands Act, passed during the present session of
Parliament.

Tlie Minister further recommends that he be authorized to refund to Mr. Robert
Fi.sher the money he has paid <m account of the j)urehase of this land, amounting to the
sum of one hundred and ninety-two (SS192) dollars.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellencv's ajiproval.

JOHN J. McGEE,
Clerk of the Privy Council.

ExTi:.\("l' /V-o/H (I R''jiort of tilt' Committee of tlu' HoiioiiritJilc tlir /'riri/ Coiiiifil, oiipYored
hji Ilia Excclh'm-ij on September ■>. lUOfl.

On a report dated August 24, 1900, from the ^Einister of the Interior, stating that
during the present year sales of school lands in the Province of Manitoba were lield bv
public auction, in accordance with the provisions in that behalf contained in the
Dominion Lands Act, at twenty-two points in that province, and that it has been
reported to him that frauilulent practiei's oi- in-egularities took place at certain of such
s:3--4:

I
50 MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

.-ak's. 1)11 iufount of w hieh a iiumhor of parcels of lands which were so sold were not
disposed of to the bona fide highest bidder, or otherwise in accordance with the terms
of sale, resulting in disappointment and in some instances loss to honest intending pur-
ciiasers, and in loss to the C'i'own.

The Minister is of opinion that the matter above referred to is of such a nature
that it should be investigated by a commissioner to be apptiinted under, and to haxc
conferred upon him all powers jirovided by Chapter 114, R.S.C, 'An Act respecting
inquiries concerning public matters:' and he, therefore, recommends that James Emile
Pierre Prendergast, Esquire, a Judge of the County Courts comprised within the eastern
Judicial District of the Province of Manitoba, be appointed a Commissioner under the
pro^dsions of the said Act, to hold an investigation and inquiry under oath or solemn
affirmation, as therein provided, with legard to any fraudulent practice or irregularity
which has been, or may be reported to him in writing over the signature of the person
making the charge or by affidavit or solemn declaration, made by him, to have, in liis
belief, taken place at any of such public auction sales of school lands in connection with
the sale of auv lands sold thereat, and with regard to any and all matters which are in
anv way connected tlierewith, and whicli it may appear to him, as such Commissioner,
should be investigati^d and inquired into, in order that a full and complete knowledge
may be had concerning any sale of any such lands which may be so brought before hini,
the said James Emile Pierre Prendergast, as such Conmiissioner ; the Commission to be
so issued to him to confer upon him all powers which Your Excellency in Council is
authorized to confer upon a Coimnissioner under and by \'ii'tue of the pro\'isions of tlie
said Act, and to contain instructions to the said James. Emile Pierre Prendergast to
report to Your Excellency the result of such investigation and inquiry, and to send with
his report a correct copy or transcript of the evidence taken by him, as such Com-
missioner.

The Minister further recommends that the remuneration of the said James Emile
Pierre Prendergast for the services to be performed by him while engaged upon such
investigation and impiiry or upon his i-eport thereon, or ujjon any other matter properly
connected therewith, be fixed at the rate of twenty dollars (^I'O) a day, it being under-
stood that no pavment is to be made for Sundays ; and also that all his tra\ elling and
living expenses during the whole period he shall be so employed, and all other expenses
necessarily and jiropeily incurred by him in and about such investigation and inquiry
and report, including the payment of ,a stenographer or stenographers wliom he may
appoint at such remuneration as he may think pT'oper, and whose duty it shall be to
record the evidence taken under such Commission and to perform such other work con-
nected therewith as the said James Emile Pierre Prendergast may direct him or them
to perform, shall be paid after being approved by the Minister of the Interior.

The Committee submit the foregoing for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

ViXTUWT fi'oin It Rr-porf iif lh(> C<i»imift''i> of thf Tlonoiirnhlf the Privij (JannfU, uppnu-cd
III/ I/Ik E.fi-1-Ucii.ci/ on Di-ceiiib'-r ,.'^, 1900.

On a rcjiort dated December 14, 1900, fi-oiii the .Minister of the Interior, stating
that an application has been made by the Great North-west Central Kailwav Companj-
to ac(]uire the lands necessary tor the right of way of the railway in certain school
sections.

The Minister observes that Section 99 of the Railway Act provides that I'ailway
companies mav acquire of lands vested in Her Majesty, as much of such lands as may
be required for the purposes of the railway, on such terms as the Governor in Council
may prescribe, and the practici' in regard to the applications of this kind for right of
way through school sections has lieen to have the lands valued and sell the same to the
companv at such valuation, the authority of the Governor in Council having first been
obtained.

N\V

29-

S E

N E

1
4

MAXrro/JA SCHOOL LAX/>S 51

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

The MiiiistiT t'urtluT stjilcs tlwit in tlic iircsciit iiiiplical inn Hie ciiiiipany represents
that the jirice to he jiaid for the school lands in (juestion should tie based ii|ion the vahie
of th<' land in that vieiuity in tliL' year ISST, when the line was located and ]ilan iiled,
and, as the contention is i| reasonable one, the agent of Dominion Lands was asked to
ascertain and report as to the value of the land in tliat \icinity in the year ISiST. in
reporting on the matter the agent submits a list of the lands sold in that vicinity in the
year 188S, the average price of which is ^(). 50 per acre, which jirice lie states fairly
re]iresents the value of the lands now applied for in the year 1S87.

The Minister, considering this price §fi.50 an acre a fail' one under tlie circum-
stances, recommends that he be authori7.e<l to sell the following jiarcels of school lands
to the Great North-west Central Kailuay Companv foi- the purposes of the railway at
such price, namely —

X E \ 29— 1"0— IS W. 1 M., (5 21 acres.
-lO-— 18 W. 1 M., (i 22 "
-13—19 W. 1 M., (i 07 •'
-13—19 W. 1 i^l., (i(l7 ••
-^13—22 W. 1 M., 79 •■
The ('ommittee submit the same for Your Excellency s ap]iroval.

.lOHX .1. MrGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Wl.Wll'KC, December. 1900.

To the Right Honourable Sir Wii.khku Lauhiiu!, R.C.M.G.,
Premier of Canada,
Ottawa.

We understand that you have been advised by the Premier of Manitoba that the
Lieutenant Governor in Council has, at the request of the Legislative Assembly of
Manitoba, nominated us to bring before you the question of the scho<il lands and moneys
of this pro\ince.

We thank you for the inter\ iew' which you have kindly consented to give us on
January 3, 1901, and meanwhile we transmit for your consideration a memorial em-
bodying the substance of our claim and request.

CGLIN H. CAMPBELL,
JOHN A. DAVIDSON.

SCHOOL LANDS AND SCHOOL MONEYS OF THE PROVINCE

OF MANITOBA.

]\temoi-ial to the Federal Government by Messrs. Campbell and I)a\idson, delegates
from the Provincial Government and Legislative Assembly of ManitoVia.

The question of these lands and moneys has been the subject of negotiation and
discussion between the Federal and Provincial Governments almost since theorgaiiization
of the province.

Immediately after the settlement of the pro\ ince it was arranged that two sections
.of land in each township should be set aside as an end^iwment for school purposes, and
this arrangement was confirmed by an Act of the Parliament of Canada in 1872, aa-
coi'ding to which sections 1 1 and 29 in every sur\eyed township in the Pro\'ince of
Manitolja were reserved from settlement and dedicateil to the supjiort of education, it
being expressly provided that the lands so dedicated should be thereafter dealt with in
such manner as should be prescribed by law. It was not thought wise to hand over
these lands to be administered by the pi'o\-ince, as it was at this_pei-iod in the initiatory
stage of responsible government, and unpro\ided with a land department.

52 MANITOBA SCHOOL LAWS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

In lS7t* tlie Government of Manitoha applied to the Parliament of Canada to have
the school lands transferred to the province and sold for the purpose of creating an
educational endowment. The Parliament, however, held that it was not then expedient
to i^rant this request on the ground that the lands should acquire additional value by
reason of the increase of the population, but it authorized an advance of .^.30,000 to be
chartteil against the proceeds of lands to be thereafter sold. In 1884 by statute 47
Vic, cap. 7, a further pavment of 830.000 was authorized by the Parliament of Canada.
Xo olijection was made on any ground to these papnents, and in the debate upon the
last Act Senator Girard from Manitolia favoured the transfer of all the school lands to
the pro\ ince, and the same ^iew was taken by Senator Power. No sales of the said
lands had been made when the payments were authorized and none took place until
IS,s.-).

In ls71;l the Parliament of Canada made provision for the sale of the said lands by
the Federal Government, for the iu\"estment of the proceeds and for the payment to the
Government of the pro\ince of the yearly income for the sup])t)rt of public schools, and
these pro\isions have been in force ever since.

In 1884 the Legislative Assembly of the Province of Manitoba passed a unaiiiumus
resolution as.serting the right of the province to its public lantls, and asking for the
transference of its school lands. The federal authorities did not see their way to grant
this request, asserting, to use their own language, ' that the retention of the general
lands involved the maintenance of a sUiflf organization for their management, and that
the school lands could be best cared for by that organization." Had the re<iuest applied
to the school lands onlv it would probably have been granted, for they stated, that they
had recommended the first proposition, namely, that relating to the general lands, they
might have regarded the second, that relating to the school lands, somewhat differently.
The (juestion of the general lands was subseciuently settled by an annual allowance of
slOO,000 to the province, and by the gift to it of the swamp lands. In connection with
these swamp lands, together with other lands possessed and acquired by the province,
a lands department was organized in 1887, and has been in existence since. It is there-
fore apparent that the fedei-al authorities themselves abandoned their plea as to the
retention of all the general lands, and it certainly will not be argued that the Dominion
Laud Department is more capable of managing the school lands than the Provincial
Land Department. jMoreover, it should not be forgotten, that in 1884 the L^niversity
of ISIanitoba received from the Dominion Government a grant of 150,000 acres, and it
will not be denied that the Provincial Land Department is as capable of administering
the school lands as the University is of administering the lands bestowed upon it.

The number of acres bestowed upon the province approximately amounted to
1^,277,900 acres. Of these there have been sold about 243,721 acres, leaving 2,034,17'J
acres. The proceeds of these sales have amounted to about •'*2.400,000, of which about
.■?600,000 has been paid into the hands of the Dominion. The estimated balance of
deferred payments amounts to 81,800,000.

Contrary to the spirit and meaning of the Act creating the oiiginal endowment and
amendment thereto, the interest derived from such sales, instead of being paid over to
the province t« be applied for the purposes of education, has been added to the original
endowment, and only 3 per cent paid to the province on the principal and interest so
received. In addition thereto the interest on the sales made has not been promptly

collected, and there remains overdue for interest about 8

From the sales already made and from the cash on hazid there should, without
inqiairment of the capital or endowment, accrue to the province an annual income or
interest of about 8100,000, and in addition a considerable sum should arise from the sale
of hay and other permits and rentals, vet the Province has onlv received up to December
31, r89-9, 8106.748.39.

There has been a very great increase in the iioi)ulation of the province since 18S7,
and the number of school districts has correspondingly multiplied. In 1887 the num-
ber of districts was 522 and in 1900, 1,145, while the school population has increased
from 17,600 in 1887 to 59,811 in 1899. Many of the. new settlers are foreigners with
little or DO acquaintance with the Engli.sh language, and it is of the fir.st consequence

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS 53

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

that thev slnmld lie niaili- familiar witli it, and so become a,C([uaiiitcd witli niir instil n
til ins and usages.

The iuei-ease in tlie population has materially added to the exjienfliture of tiic pr<i
vinee on education. The amount contributed by the prii\ ince is now foui-fold uliat it
was in 1887, notwithstanding; that the grant was reduced in |Si);; fmni .^l-'iO, to
§].■■!(). The pressure of this increase has been tlie more felt liecause I he pro\iiiiial
revenue has been practically stationaiy since 1887.

The following table shows the amount of the legislative grant and of tiie nuniiripal
taxation for the years theiein mentioned ;

Legislative Grant. iVluniciiial Taxation.

l,s86-7 $ 68,3.30 00

l!S88 97,0.5196 $ 226,81:! 00

1889 118,809 05 28-2,204 00

1890 1 18,292 97 225,089 00

1S91 113,837 16 312,396 00

1S92 127,036 93 262,297 00

1,S93 136,968 49 329,5(52 00

1,S<)4 140,562 68 35 1,9(i3 00

1,S95 152,386 51 181,828 00

1S96 171,546 81 472,039 00

1S97 180,088 88 525,482 00

1898 201,557 00 525,000 00

1899 250,000 00 •'='67,246 00

1900 250,000 00 (Estimated.)

For many years the Parliament of Manitoba has asked the Dominion Ooveninient
to transfer the school lands to the province, and in 1898 the Government of the pro-
vince ui-ged the Dominion Government to take such action, and. as a result a bill was
introduced providing for the payment to the Government of Manitoba of the sum of
$300,000 out of the school lands funds, but wliile the bill was accepted by the Connnons
it was rejected by the Senate. Amimg the reasons specified for this rejection was, that
there had been no expression of opinion on the subject, either by the people of the
province or the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. This objectiim has since been
rem(3ved. Innnediately after the action of the Senate the Parliament of Manitoba, by
practically a unanimous vote, there being only two votes against it, resolved that the
time had arrived when the school lands should be transferred from the Federal to the
Provincial Government. Shortly thereafter a general election took place, and during
the campaign both political parties pledged themselves to advocate the transference of
the schoul lands and moneys fi-om the federal to the local authorities. As soon as the
new Parliament met in 1900 it unanimouslv re-aflirmecl the resoluticm already mentioned
and directed the Government to take steps to bring this resolution before the f(-deral
authorities. In discharge of this duty the present memorial has been prepared.

The Government and the Legislature of Manitoba hold that Parliament never
intended that the endowments should enure to the benefit of future generations only,
and that the scattered settlements of to-day render the burden of maintaining the schools
peculiarh^ onerous, more particularly when, as already shown, they ai-e increasing more
rapidly to-day than ever.

They further submit that by no reasonable construction of the Act of 1872, or of
any subsequent Act, can it be inferred that it was the intention of Parliament to retain
the control of these lands for all time to come. On the contrary, tlie resolution on
which the Act of 1878 was based shows clearly that Parliament was prepared to transfer
the lands to the pro\'ince had they been then sufficiently valuable to be sold, and the
province able to undertake their administration.

They further submit that the Parliament of Canada are merely trustees of these
lands and funds, and that Manitoba being the cestui que trust, the province has long
since arrived at a stage at which it can and ought to be entrusted with the administra-
tion of these lands and funds. It has a department fudy competent to take charge of

54 MAXITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

tlic laiiils, and iis tliosc are situated within the province its fuller kK-;d knowledge will
(•nal)le it to administer them still more wisely and eeonomically.

Finally, they submit by the true eonstruetion of the Acts creating the endowment
all such moneys as are now on hand, deri\ed from interest on sales paid into the I )epart-
ment of the Tnteri(U-, and all permits, fees, licenses, rentals, ie, should !«■ jiaid at once
to the Province of ^Manitoba, to be a]i]ilied for the purposes intended.

Accordingly the (iovermnent and Legislative Assembv of the pro\ ince rciiuest the
(Jovernment of the Dominion and the Parliament of Canada to j)ro\ide by legislatioTi
during the ensuing session :

1. That the Government of Canada shall pav over to the Government of ^lanitoba
tlie amount of money in the hands of the Government of Canada alreaily realized as
principal from the sale of sclujol lands, and ti'ansfer to the Government of the pro\ ince
the full control and management of the lands not yet disposed of.

i. That the moneys now in hand, exclusive of the payments to account of the
principal of the purchase money, be paid over to the Pnnince of .Manitoba.

In name and by authority of the Goxcrinnent of the Pro\ince of Manitoba,

COLIN ]L CAMPBELL,
JOHN A. DAVIDSON.

ExTRAO' J ram n lirpnrt (if llii; l.'fiiiiDiitlce, iif IJir Hiiiiiiufdiili' file I'ririj (_'o>ni<-il, upprofi'd
hi/ //is E.ix''ll''ticij oil Jiiiiiiitrii .), I'.tOJ.

On a report dated December 14, 1900, from the ilinister of the Interior, submit-
ting that an ap[)lication has been made by the Great North-west Central Railway
Company for permission to acquire the land necessary for the right of way of the rail-
way in certain school sections.

The Minister states that section 99 of the Railway Act pro\-ides that railway
companies may acquire of lands vested in Her ^lajesty as much of such lands as may
be required for the purposes of the railway on such terms as the Go^'ernor in Council
may prescribe, and the practice in regard to applications of this kind for right of way
through school sections lias been to have the land valued and to sell the .same to the
company at such valuation, the authority of the Governor in Council having first b&en
obtained.

The Ministei' observes that in the present instance the quarter-sections of School
lands through which the right of way is required were sold bv public auction at the
recent auction sales held in ^Lmitoba, subject to the reservations of the land required
for the said right of way.

The ilinister, therefore, recomnieiifls that the land I'cquiied in these quarter-sections
by the Great N<.)i-th-west Central Railway Comj)anv for right of way purposes be sold
to the said company at the price for which the (piarter-sections in question were dis-
j)osed of at public auction, that is to say : —

2-27 acres of S.E. | of 11_14_l>4 W. at .-SG-SO per acre. . .
(i-Ki acres <,f 8.W. \ of 11—14—24 W. at .$8.50 per acre . .
:!-.sy acres of N.E. ' of 11—14—24 W. at mi. 60 per acre .

T,.tal : $109 90

The Connuittee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of th(> Privy Council.

*14

.36

MAN! ran A school lands

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

lU'SSKI.L Ilol'SK,

< )'ITA\VA. .lamiarv T, I !HH .

'!'(] llu' Kijilit HoiiDUiiiljk'

Sir WiLFiiiD LAruiER, K.C.M.G.,
Preinier "f Canada,

Ottawa, Out.

Ill reply to yuur siigi^estiini this afternoon that the meinoiial presented /' tlie
scliool lands of the Province of Manitoba did not state on what trusts and conditions
the .Manitoba Government would, if the requests were granted, receive lliciii, we
would repeat wliat we personally stated to you, that we assumed the trusts of tlie
oriuiiial endowment were in full foi-ce and effect and binding, no matter which Govern-
ment held and controlled the lands and moneys. However, to make the matter per-
f(>ctly clear, we would agree that the original endowment should be kept unimjiaired,
and the earnings therefrom devoted solely to the purpose of education, and we wish to
assure you that the jsroyiiice desires the trusts sacred and inviolate, and to use only the
income arising from the lands and capital.

The.se terms may be embodied in the legislation transferring the lands aii<l iiKnieys,
and if required, confirmed by legislation of the Province of Manitoba.

We Wduhl again urge an early answer on both branches of the memorial.

COLIN H. CAMPBELL,
JOHN A. DAVIDSON.

Ottaw.v, January IS, 1901.
Messrs. Colix H. Campbell and John A. Davidson,
Russell House, Ottawa.

I have the honour, by direction of the llight Hoiiduiable Sir \\ ilfrid J^aurier,
Preinier, to acknowledge the r(>ceipt nf \'our letter of the 7th instant, with reference tci
the memorial jire.sented concerning the school lanrls and moneys of the Pro\iiice of
Manitoba.

JOHN J. Mc'GEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

Extract /'/■()»( u Efjuirf nf tin' ('nmniitlff uf tlir Ifdimxridili- tin- I'ririj Cnuncil, aiijironi'd
hi) Ills E.fi'ellfiicii nil .hill II II I' If .-■'/, I'.X)] .

On a memorandum dated December .'^1, 1900, from the Minister of the Interior,
submitting that the north-west quarter of .sectiim 29, township \i, range 17, west of
the first meridian, was among the school lands offered for sale bv public auction at
Brandon, jNIanitoba, in the month of June, 1900, under the authority of the Order in
Council of Mav 1, 1900, but was not disposed of.

The Minister states that ajiplication is now made to the De[>artment of the Literior
to ha\e the said quarter-section again offered for sale, so as to afford the applicants, who
were unable to purchase at the last sale, another opportunity of floing .so, and he recom-
mends that he be authorized to offer the said <|uarter-section, the north-west (|uaiter of
section '29, township 12, range 17, west of the first meridian, for sale by public aucti(m
during the months of January or February at Dougla.s, jNIanitoba, this jilace being
convenient for the jmrpose.

The Minister further recoiniueiids that the quarter-section in (|uestinn he iill'('rc<l a,t
the upset price of $5 per acre, this being the value placed uimhi the land when inspected
in the summer of 1898.

The Committee submit the same for Y<iiir Excellency's apjiro\al.

JOHN J. .McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

56 ilAXlTunA SCHOOL LAXns

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

Extract frmn a Report of the. Committee of the IIoiKinrahlf the Prir^y Council, approved
hy Ills Excellency on March IS, 1901.

On a report dated March 4, 1901, frtmi the Minister of the Interior, stating that
Jiuljie Prendergfist, the Commissioner appointed to investigate the irregularities alleged
to h^Ae occurred at the auction sales of scliool lands helrl in ^Manitoba last _year, has for-
warded to the Department of the Interior for payment the accounts of the various
newspapers in the Province of Manitoba for the publication of the advertisements for
the sittings of the School Lands Commission.

The Minister states that these advertisements were not gi\en to newspapers in the
usual way through the Kings Printer, but were sent to the new.spapers hv the Commis-
sioner himself.

The ilinist^T observes that as sittings of the Commission were held at the twenty-
two points in the province at which the auction sales had taken place, it was most
flesirable that the widest publicity as to the date and place of eacli sitting should be
given by the notice to that effect in the newspapers, and to accomplish this the Commis-
sioner found it necessary to continue the advertisement in the newspapeis for a longei'
period than that allowed by the regulations with respect to Go\ernment advertising,
which priivides that an ad\ertisement shall not be inserted more tlian six times in a
(lailv or three times in a weekly newspaper.

The ^linister reconnnends that the pro\'isions of the I'egulations with res}iect tt)
Government advertising, which provide that nt>t more than six insertions shall be given
to a daily or three inserti^)ns to a weekly, lie waived with respect to the advertisement
of the sittings of the Scliot)! Lands Commission before referred to and that the King's
Printer be authorized to pass the accounts for such adverti.sements for the luniiber of
insertions shown therein, subject however, to his decision as to the amount charged
lieing a proper one.

The Minister further states that among the newspapers to which the advertisements
were given were the 8hoal Lake Star and the Selkirk E.rpositor, neither of whi(-h is on
the list of newspapers authorized to receive Government advertising.

The Minister, under the circumstances before mentioned, recommends that the in-
sertions of the advertisements of the sittings of the School Lands Cinnmissinii in these
newspapeis, the Shoal Lake Star and the Selkirk E.rjiojiifur, be approved.

The Committee submit tlie same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. :HcGEE,

Clerk of the Privv Council.

E.XTR.VC'T /;■()«( a Ri'jiorl of the VummUlic of lln Unui'iivnhli- llu^ I'riry Cniinc)!. iiiijirnred
liy I/iri Excellency oh April 9, 19'>1.

On a memorandum dated February 11, 1901, from the Minister of the Int<>rior,
stating that the north-west (juarter of section 11, township 1, range 10, west of the
first meridian, was among the school lands offered for sale by public auction at Crystal
City, Manitoba, on the 12th June, 1900, but was not disposed of.

The Minister further states that application is now made by the Department of
the Interior to have the said quarter-section again offered for sale, as the applicants
were unable to acquire it at the sale held in June, 1900.

The Minister therefore rectunmends that he be authorized to offer the said quarter-
secti(m, the north-west quarter of section 11, township 1, range 10, west of the first
meridian, at Crystal City, Manitoba, during the coming spring, on a date to be deter-
mined hereafter, the sale to be subject to an upset price of 85 jier acre.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Couniil.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LAXDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Extract J'rom a Report of the Committee of the Ilonourable the I'rivy Council approved,
by ilis Excellency on May 81, 1901.

On a report dated May 17, 1901, from the Minister of tlie Interior, stating that aa
application lias been made by the 8t. Mary's River Railway Company for the land re-
([uii'ed by the railway in school sections G and !)■, in township 6, range 21, west of the
fourth meridian.

The Minister states that under clause 99 of the Railway Act, a railway company
may acquire of lands vested in His Majesty as much of such land as is required for the
purposes of the railway on such terms as the Governor in Council may prescribe, and
the practice has been, in regard to applications of this kind, to sell to the company,
subject to the approval of the Governor in Council the lands required for such right of
way at a valuation made by an officer of the Department of the Interior who has
valued the land, in regard to the present application, at three dollars per acre.

The Minister reconnuends that he be authorized to sell to the 8t. Mary's River
Raihvaj' Company at the rate mentioned the laud required for the right of way of the
railway in the following quarter sections, that is to say : —

Part of Section.

N.E. i
N.W. i
S.W. 4.
N.E. |.
N.W. i
S.W. i.

bection.

Township.

Range.

Meridian.

Wt. of 4 th

Area in
Acres.

0 05
0 11
0 21
4 09
4-49
1-66

The Committee submit the same for His Excellency's approval.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

The Honourable

The Secretary of State,
Ottawa.

GovernmeKt House,

WixNiPEft, August 1, 1901.

I have the honour to transmit herewith, a memorial of the Executive Council of
the Province of Manitoba on the subject of the school lands and school land fund,
together with a certified copy of an Order in Council, approved May 2.3, 1901, recom-
mending that the annexed memorial to His Most Excellent ilajesty in Council on the
subject of the school lands and school land fund be transmitted to His Excellency the
Governor General with the request that the same be forwarded to the Secretary of State

for th'e Colonies.

D. H. McMillan,

Lieutenant Governor.

August 6, 1901.
His Honour

The Lieutenant Governor of Manitoba,
Winnipeg, Manitoba.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch of the 1st instant,
covering a memorial to His Majesty the King from tlie Executive Council of the Pro-
83—5

MAXITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

2 EDWARD VII., A. 1902

vince of Manitoba on the subject of school lands and school land fund.s, together ^vith a
certified copy of an Order in Council, approved !May 2-3, 1901, recommending the trans-
mission of such memorial to the Governor General with a request that the same may be
forwarded to the Secretary of State for the Colonies.

F. COLSON,
Acting ITnder-Secretary of State.

(From Mr. Chamherlain to Lord Minto.)

DowNiNT. Street, December 18, 1901.

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your despatch No. 253 of August
31, forwarding a memorial addressed by the Executive Council of Manitoba to the King
in Council on the subject of the lands reserved by the Parliament of Canada for school
purposes in that province.

2. I have given careful consideration to the memorial in consultation with the law
officers of the Crown, and I am of opinion that its subject matter is not one which I
should be justified in advising His Majesty to refer to the Judicial Committee of the
Privy Council under ■■> and 4 William IV, cap. 41, section 4.

3. The qiiestion, as it appears to me, is one of administration by the Federal Gov-
ernment and for legislation, if necessary, by the Dominion Parliament and not for the
interference of the Crown.

J. CHAMBERLAIN.

Extract /Vom a Report of the Committee of the Honourable the Privy Council, approved
by His Excellency on October 31, 1991.

On a report dated October 16, 1901, from the Minister of the Interior, submitting
that an application has been made bv the Canadian Northern Railway Company for
permission to acquire the land necessary for a right of way of the railway through cer-
tain school sections.

The Minister further submits that under the provisions of the Railway Act, raUwaj-
companies may acquu-e of lands vested in His ISIajesty as much of such lands as is
necessary for the purposes of the railway, upon such terms as the Governor in Council
may prescribe and the practice has been with respect to school lands to have a valuation
made of the lands applied for, and upon such valuation being approved by His Excel-
lency in Council, to sell the lands in question to the company at such valuation.

In the present instance, the school lands applied for by the Canadian Northern
Railway Company ha\-e been valued as follows : —

Section.

Township.

Range.

Meridian.

Acres.

Price
per acre.

S.E. ill

15
15
15
15
10

12 W
»12W
12 W
12 W
12 W

1st Principal Meridian.

1st

814
0-34
5 91
1-27
5-70

S cts.
5 00

S.W. ill

5 00

S.E. J 29

S.W. i29

S.W. i 29

5 Ofr

6 00
5 00

The ilinister recommends that he be authorized to sell the school lands specified in
the foregoing list at the prices set opposite each parcel.

The Committee submit the same for Your Excellency's appnn al.

JOHN J. McGEE,

Clerk of the Privy Council.

MANITOBA SCHOOL LANDS

SESSIONAL PAPER No. 83

Ottawa, January 11, 1902.

His Honour D. H. McMillan,

Lieut. Governor of Manitoba,
Winnipeg, Man.

I beg to inclose, herewith, copy of a communication from the Right Honourable
Mr. Chamberlain, Secretary of State for the Colonies, to His Excellency the Governor
General, being in answer to memorial addressed by the Executive Council of the Pro-
%ance of Manitoba to the King in Council, on the subject of the lands reserved by the
Parliament of Canada for school purposes in that province.

R. W. SCOTT,

Secretary of State.

Government House,

Winnipeg, January 18, 1902.
The Honourable

The Secretary of State,
Ottawa, Ont.

I have the honour tii acknowledge the receipt of your despatch, bearing date 11th
instant, inclo.sing a copy of a communication from the Right Honourable Mr. Chamber-
lain, Secretary of State for the Colonies, to His Excellency the Governor General, being
in answer to a memorial addressed by the Executive Council of tlie Prcjvince of Mani-
toba to the King in Council, on the subject of lands reserved for school purposes. A
copy of the communication has this dav been forwarder! to my provincial secretary for
information of mv government.

D. H. McMillan,

Lieutenant Governor.

i;i!

m:M'}^M&mmm

Internet Archive Audio

Featured

Top

Images

Featured

Top

Software

Featured

Top

Books

Featured

Top

Video

Featured

Top

Mobile Apps

Browser Extensions

Archive-It Subscription

Save Page Now

Full text of "Sessional papers of the Dominion of Canada 1902"

See other formats